00:02:39 <olsner> cool stuff, "companies like Microsoft run at 12 full-time."
00:05:17 <Sgeo> Told my friend that the 50%-75% thing seemed like BS
00:06:09 <Bike> what 50%-75% thing
00:06:41 <Sgeo> That PCs, unlike Macs, only utilize 50%-75% of the hardware
00:06:45 <elliott> dont iou read everithing sgeo sais bike
00:07:23 <Bike> sgeo did... that's... don't take that shit to heart
00:08:02 <Sgeo> My friend was asking about PC vs Mac on Facebook when someone replied with that... I asked for citations, then myself said something dumb (I forgot about the existence of dual-booting)
00:08:18 <elliott> do iou realli think anione who sais anithing like that is going to have citations
00:08:38 <Bike> sgeo come on it's barely literate
00:08:51 <shachaf> Sgeo is inflicting this on us now
00:08:55 * Bike advocates linguistic imperialism
00:09:12 <shachaf> i used to confuse "imperial" and "imperative"
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00:09:30 <shachaf> "imperial programming language", "imperial tense"
00:09:34 <kmc> Sgeo mai be trolling bi proxi
00:10:17 <Phantom__Hoover> like seriously, last time you explained it it was clearly not the same as the thing you were telling people not to do
00:10:17 <olsner> the unwitting troll accomplice
00:10:25 <Bike> sgeo just.... in general, take things not so serious
00:10:26 <Sgeo> That reminds me, a proxy was trolling me today.
00:10:38 <Bike> things are kind of fucking ridiculous, in general
00:10:42 <Bike> treat them as such
00:11:02 <Bike> dumb bullshit on facebook in particular
00:12:24 <Sgeo> It was passing through the Host: header, which it wasn't doing for anyone else
00:12:32 <Sgeo> I think my copy of the proxy got corrupted, or was old
00:12:45 <Sgeo> (It was a localally run proxy)
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00:13:46 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: what was the discrepancy
00:14:34 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, well the example you gave was, like, someone coming into #haskell and saying "hey guys a friend of mine says haskell is shit and not useful in the real world is this right"
00:15:17 <Phantom__Hoover> basically the point is that you seem to apply it in situations where nobody is actually trolling
00:15:43 <Phantom__Hoover> someone posts something idiotic, one of us finds it, then posts it in here to point and laugh (in the general case, not anything involving Sgeo)
00:15:58 <elliott> this rivalri is the shittest
00:16:30 <elliott> kmc: ok i'm going to tri rebooting
00:16:58 <elliott> so i can restore mi tabs afterwards
00:17:11 <elliott> uh oh how do i run sistemctl
00:17:24 <shachaf> elliott: It saves all the tabs if you just quit it the normal way.
00:17:35 <elliott> shachaf: no iou have to open each window separateli
00:17:41 <shachaf> Moreover you don't have to click the little Restore button.
00:17:41 <elliott> if iou have too mani windows the list drops some
00:17:51 <kmc> $'s\x79stemctl'
00:17:54 <elliott> i don't have it set to restore tabs on open
00:18:00 -!- Bike_ has joined.
00:18:06 <elliott> because that would be bad when i close hundreds of them that i won't care about tomorrow
00:18:10 <elliott> this wai gives me more freedom
00:18:40 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: shrug, i said 'mai', and aniwai deciding who is realli trolling or not is impossible
00:18:47 <kmc> but i can stop saing it
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00:19:03 <kmc> i can probabli find more accurate wais to express the same idea
00:19:55 <Phantom__Hoover> i mean i agree that pointing and laughing at irrelevant idiots can get annoying but the word 'trolling' is abused enough already
00:20:04 <elliott> i think it is probabli a mechanical problem
00:20:23 <elliott> like i'll tipe a normal word with u in it
00:20:25 <elliott> and it won't have the u in now
00:20:36 <elliott> which seems consistent with shift-u not working
00:21:09 <olsner> is it the same kind of keyboard that had the numbers-not-working problem?
00:21:39 <elliott> that was a laptop keiboard
00:21:49 <elliott> wellt his is scissor-switch too, but
00:22:03 <elliott> kmc: do iou think ripping off the keicap on the i kei would be enlightening
00:22:09 <elliott> it seems to be quite thoroughli stuck on
00:22:16 <olsner> ah, so it's not buckling spring, that explains it
00:22:29 <elliott> like i'd rather have a mechanical keiboard
00:22:31 <kmc> i do mi fare share of pointing and laughing at idiots
00:22:33 <elliott> but buckling spring is awful
00:22:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: its not the onli broken kei
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00:30:13 <Sgeo> Is elliott's y key broken?
00:30:24 <Sgeo> Or is there some sort of in-joke here?
00:30:40 <elliott> kmc: how do iou even remove scissor switch keis
00:32:25 <Bike> Sgeo: it's broken.
00:33:45 <kmc> the in-joke is that we are all doing the same
00:34:29 <elliott> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh2hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
00:34:47 <elliott> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
00:35:12 <kmc> how did you get a 2 in there
00:35:22 -!- shachaf has set topic: avoiding the penultimate letter of the English alphabet in solidity with elliott | a hippothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support unikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:35:22 <kmc> matrix artifact?
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00:35:43 <elliott> maibe i accidentalli pressed 2?
00:35:55 <elliott> hu7g7 j5 576g6gttttttttuut
00:36:05 <elliott> wow this thing is fuckin tightli attached on
00:36:15 <Bike> Wait, I thought you already cleaned it.
00:36:23 <Bike> fuck. i give up.
00:36:27 <Bike> i'm shit at this
00:37:09 <Phantom___Hoover> tools are what elevate man above the lesser ape (and the woman (no that just doesn't work))
00:37:20 <elliott> i fear i am going to snap this
00:37:35 -!- Sgeo has set topic: avoiding the penultimate letter of the English alphabet in soliditi with elliott | a hippothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support unikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:37:49 <Sgeo> Whose idea was it to put soliditi instead of soliditi
00:38:04 <elliott> bhhh67h77hhhhhh67677777hhhhhhhhhhh676666666hhhh7huhhhhhhhhh7777777
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00:41:09 <elliott> kmc: pressing the actual rubber on the i kei does nothing
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00:43:36 <Koen_> is the screwdriver a metaphor?
00:43:46 <Bike> The screwdriver is very real. It is inside you.
00:46:11 <kmc> elliott: is there like a circuit board under it? iou can tri cleaning it
00:46:16 <kmc> maibe with alcohol
00:46:33 -!- Fiora has left ("~").
00:46:37 <kmc> iou often can't remove the rubber dome without destroing it tho
00:50:08 <elliott> kmc: i could probabli tri taking off the rubber ieah
00:51:17 <kmc> oh it's may day
00:51:23 <kmc> debout, les damnés de la terre
00:51:50 <kmc> and now iou've ripped it off?
00:52:14 <elliott> lets see if i cant hit the circuit board with mi finger (i actualli used to trigger a kei like this)
00:52:17 <elliott> (when i broke a keicap once)
00:54:10 <kmc> why does google translate thing everything is afrikaans now
00:55:45 <elliott> oops now the kei is weird even if i reattach it
00:57:25 <Bike> @tell mnoqy http://hans-von-hozel.tumblr.com/ happy christmas
00:59:16 <Koen_> they want you to learn dutch
01:01:14 <kmc> Bike: what
01:01:54 <Bike> monqy's an avid fanfictionista.
01:02:31 <elliott> ugh, I realli want a i kei.
01:02:39 <elliott> maibe I should get mi other laptop
01:02:48 <Jafet> imo elliottus utor a diversus linguam potest
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01:05:49 <Bike> `relcome Tritonio
01:05:52 <HackEgo> Tritonio: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:06:18 <Koen_> elliott: here's a y for iou and iou can copipaste it
01:06:35 <Bike> Everybody deserves to feel welcome.
01:06:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> c0'
01:08:21 <Jafet> `run welcome elliott | tr i y | rainwords
01:08:24 <HackEgo> ellyott: Welcome to the ynternatyonal hub for esoteryc programmyng language desygn and deployment! For more ynformatyon, check out our wyky: http://esolangs.org/wyky/Mayn_Page. (For the other kynd of esoteryca, try #esoteryc on yrc.dal.net.)
01:08:58 <Jafet> thatsynsensytyve.gif
01:09:12 <kmc> oh what is happening here
01:10:26 <shachaf> hey roconnor is going to BayHac
01:10:36 <Koen_> hey I just spent four hours playing yalta chess
01:13:35 <kmc> were you Roosevelt, Churchill, or Stalin
01:14:11 <Koen_> I guess stalin is red and churchill white?
01:14:16 <Koen_> so I'd be roosevelt
01:14:40 <kmc> uk and usa have the same colors, is the problem
01:15:01 <Koen_> I won the first one and in the second one I lost all my pieces and ultimately was made pat (mostly because nobody bothered to checkmate me since I was no longer dangerous)
01:15:18 <Koen_> well I don't know the current us president is black
01:15:22 <kmc> Tories are blue, except their logo is mostly green now?
01:15:24 <Koen_> but the current uk queen isn't black
01:15:28 <kmc> also i don't know if that was established in 1945
01:15:52 <shachaf> but every uk president has been black
01:15:55 <kmc> in the US the discussion of "red states" and "blue states" is ubiquitous, but this color code was only established in 2000
01:16:16 <Koen_> ha I watched this episode of family guy, in english with french subtitles
01:16:30 <Koen_> and there was a song about republicans and democrats
01:17:01 <Koen_> and he was all like "red is good and blue is bad" and they translated red with bleu and blue with rouge
01:17:12 <elliott> mi condolences re: iour watching famili gui
01:17:26 <kmc> yeah it is odd that our far-right party ended up with red
01:17:39 <kmc> fits the general pattern of america ignoring standards
01:17:48 <Koen_> that was just one episode elliott
01:17:51 <shachaf> kmc: How do I send a lone ^6 through mosh without any key following?
01:17:52 <kmc> see also: our labor day is in September
01:17:59 <kmc> uh it's either ^6 ^6 or ^6 6
01:18:09 <elliott> i am so glad mi password has no i in it
01:18:20 <kmc> elliott: u dodged a bullet there
01:18:22 <Bike> that's because american labor is "fucking weird" from an international perspective
01:18:26 <Koen_> iou could just copi paste though
01:18:27 <zzo38> What is your opinion/ideas of a compiler to Z-machine?
01:18:43 <elliott> Koen_: how can i copi paste into a login vt...
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01:18:58 <Koen_> I don't know iou're the expert
01:19:14 <shachaf> elliott: oh no you've revealed critical information about your password
01:19:19 <shachaf> the search space is so much smaller now
01:19:31 <Koen_> also can't you use a virtual keyboard or something?
01:19:56 <shachaf> a vt is a virtual terminal
01:20:01 <shachaf> why would it not use a virtual keyboard
01:20:20 <kmc> yeah they put it in sept. to discourage the international association of the holiday
01:20:27 <Koen_> so I'm gonna google vt and be back in two sec and pretend I know what it is ok
01:20:34 <Bike> http://www.drben.net/ChinaReport/Xinjiang_Uyghur_AR/Tashkurgan_Tajik/Tashkurgan/Tashkurgan-Takskurgan-Main.html i found the ugliest website ever again.
01:21:16 <Koen_> google gives me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Vermont though
01:21:39 <shachaf> kmc, elliott, oerjan: Even roconnor is coming to BayHac. You gotta come.
01:21:53 <elliott> so i have a 16 megabit connection now
01:22:06 <elliott> does anione have a veri large file for me to download
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01:22:18 <Bike> yes just a second
01:22:33 <Koen_> how's 10 billion digits of pi doing?
01:22:45 <Bike> https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5923737/Geocities_-_The_Torrent
01:23:33 <elliott> Bike: ok how about... smaller than that
01:23:48 <kmc> only 641 GB pshaw
01:23:51 <kmc> but no seeders :(
01:24:14 <kmc> also why are all the ads on tpb sex ads
01:24:57 <Koen_> there's a possibility the ads are based on what kind of sites you often visit
01:25:07 <kmc> no i always view porn in incognito windows
01:25:46 <Bike> here download https://torcache.net/torrent/6E2ECE072E9EBCF26769F154355BFB932B6FEFCA.torrent for me so i don't have to
01:25:54 <kmc> maybe it's that people would be offended by sex ads on 'proper' sites but if you're stealing things then you lose the moral high ground
01:26:10 <kmc> also they have no obligation to be 'work safe'
01:26:14 <Bike> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NYG9ayO80X8/T5or4XNUojI/AAAAAAAACLA/8o_Mq3taAUo/s320/Understanding+the+Secrets+of+Takahata.jpg
01:26:19 <kmc> the ads on encyclopedia dramatica are also sex ads
01:26:27 <Bike> alt. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KZE9UbRiTeg/R8tndqJn2hI/AAAAAAAABMg/xVZqJ-ZKoKs/s1600-h/icy_river.jpg
01:28:37 <Koen_> I think we have a law in france according to which any media which is not explicitly labeled as 18+ cannot broadcast any inappropriate content before 10:30pm
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01:30:25 <elliott> also lol i can't open Bike's tpb link
01:31:26 <Bike> plot twist: neither can I
01:31:36 <Bike> cert revoked oh no
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01:43:22 <elliott> hm it is annoing how i cannot realli seem to seed torrents
01:45:06 <Sgeo> This is a lot of people with 0 upvotes and 0 downvotes in this thread
01:45:13 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know it's a new Reddit feature)
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01:46:35 <elliott> let's see how fast i can download 750 megs
01:47:02 <elliott> oh man mi download rate is actualli measured in multiple mebioctets per second
01:48:09 <Koen_> heaven comes wyth a pryce
01:48:25 <elliott> well currentli the price seems to be an upload rate of 0
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01:53:09 <lambdabot> Koen_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:54:09 <elliott> also whi are iou stalking!!
01:54:25 <Koen_> well it's just the automated quit message from my client
01:55:09 <Koen_> I have no idea what you're talking about!
01:55:14 <Koen_> I'm going to bed now bye :)
01:55:41 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgyct5cQLC1qhpvhso1_500.jpg possibly koen
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02:28:37 <tswett> Sgeo: do you remember when you introduced me to Homestuck?
02:28:54 <Sgeo> tswett, as in what timeframe, or do I remember having done so?
02:29:16 <Sgeo> I think you finished after Cascade came out
02:29:17 <tswett> Hm, wasn't there some Reasonably Big Hiatus that ended 11/11/11, or something like that? Maybe I caught up during that hiatus.
02:29:45 <Sgeo> 10/25/11 was Cascade
02:29:52 <tswett> Maybe I actually finished right before it came out or something.
02:30:05 <Sgeo> There was a 2 month or so hiatus until then, then 10/31 (approx), then 11/11/11 Homestuck resumed normal activity
02:30:34 <Sgeo> Pretty sure around Cascade, anyway
02:30:37 <tswett> So I've been a Homestuck for, like, one and a half years.
02:33:04 <shachaf> tswett: did you get caught up with `olist during the recent hiatus
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03:12:34 <Sgeo> tswett, I concur with shachaf, you should read Order of the Stick
03:12:57 <tswett> Oh yeah. I haven't read that in quite a while.
03:13:01 <tswett> I was, in fact, caught up at one point.
03:13:07 <tswett> I dunno. Maybe I should read Lord of the Rings first...
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03:16:50 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSWqx8goqSY maybe i should watch more defcon talks
03:34:44 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez you like the commerce clause, right?
03:35:32 <kmc> it's so easy
03:35:46 <Bike> "handguns in schools? commerce clause"
03:36:20 <kmc> well i mean guns are one thing, but they're not truly dangerous like marijuana
03:37:44 <pikhq> Bike: You should watch more Jason Scott. :P
03:38:20 <Bike> yeah, that's probably a better conclusion.
03:38:37 <pikhq> Jason Scott is all-round awesome.
03:40:37 <coppro> why doesn't /r/esotericgonewild exist
03:40:57 <pikhq> coppro: Cause I've yet to take dick photos.
03:40:57 <coppro> what is that smiley supposed to express
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03:41:19 <kmc> i can't put it in few words (otherwise i would have)
03:41:35 <pikhq> Though I could add photos of two dicks to it pretty easily.
03:42:09 <coppro> know a couple of guys named richard?
03:42:26 <pikhq> No. I was referring to actual phallusses.
03:42:48 <coppro> the internet has a very large supply of photos of dicks
03:42:59 <coppro> both the richards and the phalluses
03:43:02 <pikhq> Yeah, but r/esotericgonewild doesn't.
03:43:03 <kmc> eh it's only a countable set
03:43:13 <coppro> I would probably outsource my contribution
03:43:18 <pikhq> I could also get a pair of boobs on there.
03:44:00 <coppro> kmc: Yeah, but I'm pretty sure there don't exist any uncountable sets of photos of dicsk
03:52:16 <Jafet> The xxxiom of choice
03:54:12 <pikhq> Also, only two people. Y'know, gotta make it kinky to start with.
03:54:50 <kmc> you have pictures of 2 boobs beloning to two different people
03:54:53 * kmc is confused
03:55:13 <Bike> Possibly they traded at some point
03:56:13 <coppro> they've surely become collectors' items by now
03:56:44 <pikhq> kmc: Nah, 2 dicks, 2 boobs, mere 2 people.
03:57:11 <pikhq> The boobs are a matched set.
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04:14:09 <pikhq> Bike: Yeah, gotta love Jason Scott.
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04:22:11 <coppro> "expunction" is a word
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04:40:16 <HackEgo> 29) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
04:41:33 <kmc> ttants: carbonized, carbonated
04:45:02 <kmc> shachaf: why charcol
04:45:15 <shachaf> why does everyone ask me that
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04:52:46 -!- shachaf has set topic: avoiding the penultimate letter of the English alphabet in solydyty with elliott | a hippopothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support unikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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05:06:59 <kmc> http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/how
05:11:12 <kmc> ttants: calculus of constructions, call of cthulhu
05:12:03 <elliott> kmc: imo bui me a keiboard
05:12:03 <kmc> things that are not the same
05:12:29 <Bike> Also: I thought kosher light switches were a myth. Oh how wrong I was.
05:13:13 <kmc> say what you will about religion but it does inspire a weird kind of creativity
05:13:17 <elliott> Our technology revolves around several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and delays
05:13:23 <elliott> judaism is kind of inspiring to me
05:13:33 <elliott> like thei are so frank about this kind of stuff?
05:13:53 <elliott> thei just acknowledge that ieah, ok, we can't use lightswitches, here we've used jewish science to fix the problem
05:14:01 <Bike> i like that they like
05:14:07 <elliott> i mean it's veri pragmatic
05:14:10 <Bike> it's not even a hack, they're really thinking of the religion here
05:14:17 <Bike> it's genuinely inconvenient to use on shabbat
05:15:37 <Bike> Is KosherSwitch® considered to be the KosherLamp™ (Kosher Lamp) killer?
05:17:15 <pikhq> elliott: Well you see, the *Jewish* YHWH is more-or-less just this crazy bastard that they appease.
05:17:33 <pikhq> And if he'll be appeased with a kosher light switch, then fuck it.
05:17:49 <Bike> Honestly if I was God I'd let this go out of sheer amusement
05:18:23 <pikhq> This is a good point, and consistent with the character described in the Old Testament.
05:18:33 <Bike> At least six substantive reasons have been suggested, and a minority believe that turning on an electrical fan is prohibited only because of common Jewish practice and tradition (minhag) but not for any substantive technical reason.
05:18:59 <Bike> For example, most authorities permit Jews to open a refrigerator door even though it may cause the motor to turn on immediately or later (not certain to occur); however, they prohibit opening the door if a light inside will automatically turn on (certain and of benefit).
05:19:09 <Bike> this is the best shit i've seen since my kabbalah kick
05:19:11 <elliott> http://www.kosherimage.com/kosherlampMAX.html
05:19:37 <Bike> like... beyond the sheer ridiculousness of it all... the deciding factor is, nothing can be helpful?
05:19:51 <elliott> i recommend http://judaism.stackexchange.com/ btw
05:20:02 <elliott> for general "wow judaism is realli unique" feelings
05:20:08 <Bike> They also permit walking past a house with a motion sensor which switches on a light if the street is already well-lit (not of benefit), but not if it is dark[citation needed].
05:20:17 <kmc> wowwwwwwwwwww
05:20:25 <Bike> being a modern orthodox jew must fucking suck
05:20:52 <kmc> http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/28211/pleasure-of-woman-at-the-end-of-relations-source-in-chazal
05:20:58 <kmc> i love the way hebrew words just get mixed into english
05:21:01 <Bike> What's up with this pasuk in mishpatim?
05:21:03 <kmc> they could be total gibberish for all i know
05:21:11 <kmc> it's like watching people discuss star trek and put klingon words in
05:21:46 <Bike> The gemoro in kiddushin has the question if during the act of bioh with A a woman accepted kiddushim (although highly unlikely) from B.
05:22:33 <Bike> "The use of electricity from power plants operated by Jews in violation of Shabbat is also controversial because it is normally forbidden to benefit from the action of another Jew in violation of Shabbat. "
05:22:42 <Bike> so... a modern state can't function under these rules
05:22:53 <kmc> maybe in israel they make arabs run the power plants
05:22:58 <kmc> like the sabbath buses
05:23:57 <Bike> nothing happens (guaranteed);
05:24:38 -!- kmc has set topic: Our technology revolves around several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and delays | a hippopothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:25:36 <Bike> Turning on an appliance may indirectly cause the power plant to consume more fuel. For various reasons most authorities permit this indirect causation if the power-plant is operated by non-Jews.[24] (If the power plant is operated by Jews, the issue is more complicated. See the section below regarding Israeli power plants.)
05:25:45 <pikhq> Bike: They can have a non-Jew running around just fine.
05:25:54 <Bike> OK, ok, this last one, this last one you need to see.
05:26:02 <Bike> Rabbi Shlomo Auerbach rejects all the fundamental reasons for prohibiting electricity as cited above, except for turning on an incandescent light which is considered lighting a fire. Nonetheless, he prohibits using any electrical appliances except in cases of great need because Shabbat-observant Jews have traditionally acted on the assumption that using electricity on Shabbat is prohibited. Thus, according to this opinion, the ...
05:26:08 <Bike> ... prohibition of electricity on Shabbat is a minhag (common practice or tradition) without a substantive reason in the laws of Shabbat.[26]
05:26:10 <pikhq> Basically, the idea is that if the non-Jew does something that Jews *happen* to benefit from, then hey, no harm done.
05:27:10 <kmc> common law judaism
05:27:45 <Bike> It is questionable if it is permissible to use an answering machine or voicemail to receive messages left during Shabbat, since one is benefiting from a violation of Shabbat, particularly if the caller is a Jew.
05:28:26 <Bike> man, i was reading about a war over glaciers before this, but this, this is something else
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05:31:01 <kmc> God is a place you will wait for the rest of your life
05:31:41 <Bike> ome neighborhoods with thousands of residents, especially Haredi communities, operate the electricity in their homes from a special Shabbat generator, without performing any forbidden action on Shabbat. Some people even refuse to use a generator because the end-product of electricity is indistinguishable from what is provided to ordinary consumers, so using electricity in any manner constitutes the appearance of violating halakhah.
05:33:09 <kmc> itt sanity is a social construct
05:35:01 <elliott> kmc: [sijmbol denoting recognition of reference]
05:35:38 <kmc> good name for a pl
05:35:54 <kmc> elliott: what, the Neutral Milk Hotel lyric?
05:36:00 <kmc> i just happenede to be listening to that song
05:36:11 <elliott> no the other reference obvs
05:37:28 <kmc> Does any one know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
05:45:05 <kmc> AVI: ODML: Building ODML index (2 superindexchunks).
05:45:53 <shachaf> kmc: have you seen how complicated Data.Map is :'(
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05:52:44 <mnoqy> shachaf: good question
05:53:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: hang on...... have you been logreading
05:54:12 <mnoqy> i have "informants"
05:54:46 <shachaf> did elliott make fun of me by pasting what i said in /query to you
05:55:46 <shachaf> does he call you mnoqi now
05:56:05 <shachaf> imo you should /nick mnoqi in solidity of elliott's keyboard
05:56:22 <mnoqy> im sure elliott avoids tab completion just to keep up the gimmick
06:04:51 <zzo38> The question "Does any one know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" is probably not very meaningful.
06:05:39 <Bike> It meant something to somebody.
06:06:17 <zzo38> Yes, maybe to someone else it does.
06:06:43 <Bike> Anyone know where I can do a whois lookup for a Bhutanese domain?
06:06:51 <Bike> The usual services aren't cutting it.
06:08:10 <shachaf> Or do you want more than Avaliability?
06:08:45 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.bt to the rescue
06:09:12 <Bike> I suppose that would have been sensible to look up. Thank you.
06:09:49 <kmc> bhutanistan
06:10:32 <Bike> so uh... how can i look up who owns a domain exactly
06:11:36 <Bike> well, nic.bt is inaccurate.
06:11:47 <Bike> I'm trying to figure out The Deal with http://constitution.bt/
06:11:59 <shachaf> nic.bt has not been registered yet and so available. This domain could be purchased but with no guarantee. Availability of domain name doesn't necessarily mean this can be purchased.
06:12:30 <shachaf> I checked one domain and found a whois.
07:17:13 <shachaf> typing monoids is so much fun
07:17:55 <shachaf> mnoqy: hi mononononononoids hi
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07:22:56 <zzo38> Wow. Wikipedia works much better with JavaScript turned off.
07:24:25 <zzo38> Therefore I have blocked scripts from Wikipedia in the content-policy management.
07:25:33 <shachaf> Why don't you just use the gopher interface?
07:25:57 <Bike> Me too, phantom. me too
07:26:38 <zzo38> Because I want to edit it and that stuff too.
07:38:23 <kmc> i also that thing you said
07:38:44 <shachaf> why is everyone doing double takes
07:38:59 <kmc> *record scratch*
07:39:13 <zzo38> Maybe it is because you don't want quintuple takes?
07:39:29 * shachaf hears a collective sigh of #esoteric relief.
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08:22:21 <elliott> kmc: do iou know anithing about bidirectional tipe checking
08:22:37 <shachaf> is one direction type checking and the other direction type inference
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08:42:07 <shachaf> Although we have no way to make general unboxed tuples work, we can at least make IO-types work using the following ultra-kludgey observation: RealWorld# doesn't really exist and so has zero size, in compiled code. In turn this means that a type of the form (# t, RealWorld# #) has the same representation as plain t does. So the bytecode generator, whilst rejecting code with general unboxed tuple returns, recognises and accepts this special ...
08:42:13 <shachaf> ... case. Which means that IO-typed stuff works in the interpreter. Just.
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08:52:40 <fizzie> Viking's KML import today: http://sprunge.us/KHZc
09:17:04 <pikhq> Well, I get the feeling my insomnia's gotten worse.
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10:37:00 <zzo38> Do you think Wikipedia is better with or without the JavaScripts?
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11:31:17 <shachaf> It's too bad there are no deluxe subscribers.
11:31:28 <shachaf> They'd be getting deluxe service.
11:47:39 <ion> What’s pbf deluxe?
11:49:47 <shachaf> It's the deluxe pbf list for people who want deluxe updates.
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11:52:39 <ion> What are deluxe updates?
12:02:17 <shachaf> mnoqy: got any elliott wisdom for us
12:05:15 <shachaf> the well has beep depleted
12:05:40 <mnoqy> im unsure as to whether i ever had elliott wisdom
12:05:55 <shachaf> is there such a thing as elliott wisdom????
12:07:41 <ion> is there such a thing as elliott?
12:08:27 -!- ion has set topic: Our technology revolves around several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and matrices of solidity | a hippopothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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13:01:11 <shachaf> oerjan! Just the entity I was looking for.
13:01:24 <shachaf> Why are you gateway/web/freenode/?
13:02:23 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Last time I linked to a page about the etymology of Nikolay or something, and you noticed it was vandalism and reverted it. <-- WHY DON'T YOU EDIT WIKIPEDIA YOU ANTISOCIAL JERK (just kidding.)
13:03:14 <shachaf> With the Nikoblahtymology thing it was because I wasn't even paying attention to that.
13:03:28 <shachaf> With the other thing it was because I refuse to edit Wikipedia.
13:03:50 <shachaf> It's a slippery slope, neh? You edit one article and soon you're editing thousands.
13:04:11 <oerjan> not me. too lazy to expand.
13:04:41 <elliott> oerjan: do iou have a i kei i could borrow?
13:04:42 <oerjan> well except when i notice something like everyone misspelling Isaac Newton as Issac Newton and do a full search.
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13:05:20 <oerjan> elliott: you don't hapen to have a key for me in return?
13:05:43 <oerjan> (it only randomly notices me pressing p)
13:05:56 <shachaf> well well what have we here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Issac_Newton&action=history
13:06:03 <elliott> oerjan: iou can have f12. pretti sure i'll never need f12.
13:06:22 <shachaf> f12 is the best key on the keyboard
13:06:37 <olsner> hmm, had to double-check whether they actually went up to f12 on a normal keyboard
13:06:39 <oerjan> i don't do F keys much.
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13:07:01 <Jafet> Why didn't they just design keyboards with ten of them, and make F10 F12?
13:07:28 * oerjan gives Jafet a spinal tap
13:07:56 <oerjan> shachaf: it's like bigger, but begger.
13:08:23 <oerjan> i should also point out that the ' key is also bad.
13:09:28 <oerjan> (this is not my laptop btw. which also answers shachaf's first question. well as much as i want to answer it.)
13:09:52 <shachaf> my ' key and my ↵ key have a telepathic link
13:10:34 <oerjan> shachaf: oh mine do too, then.
13:10:40 <shachaf> Sometimes I press ' and get a newline.
13:11:06 <shachaf> Despite having pressed ' and not �.
13:11:31 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you coming to BayHac?
13:12:06 <oerjan> btw i think i mentioned before that my issac newton search and replace hit upon an indian college whose name is apparently _officially_ spelled with "issac".
13:12:38 <oerjan> and no, i have no plans of coming to the usa in the foreseeable future.
13:13:05 <shachaf> We have an unrivaled Substructure
13:13:09 <shachaf> Our aspiration is to make students Intellectual
13:13:20 <shachaf> We have wonderful Natural surrounding with air and light
13:13:29 <shachaf> We give assurance to our students to get a virtuous Career
13:13:32 <shachaf> We not only education but also Ethnicities to the students
13:13:46 <shachaf> i was just going to paste one of them but then they kept coming help
13:13:52 <oerjan> i like substructure in my logics
13:14:11 <shachaf> the joke is that The name you can Trust is Sir Issac Newton
13:14:51 <olsner> shachaf: where is that from?
13:15:28 <shachaf> let's look at their computer science department
13:16:16 <shachaf> ok i won't paste it in here because then i'd paste the whole page
13:18:58 <boily> I thinkg lambdabot is being sympathetic to the prolonged absence of metasepia.
13:19:45 <oerjan> shachaf: you look like the kind of guy who'd know what "halachic" (in the topic) means.
13:20:12 <lambdabot> *** "halacha" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:20:13 <lambdabot> n 1: Talmudic literature that deals with law and with the
13:20:13 <lambdabot> interpretation of the laws on the Hebrew Scriptures [syn:
13:20:55 <shachaf> 22:20 <kmc> http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/28211/pleasure-of-woman-at-the-end-of-relations-source-in-chazal
13:21:01 <Jafet> Halachic, the latest jewish fashion
13:21:52 <oerjan> ...and here we see a rabbi in a halachic shirt with matching striped trousers...
13:24:35 <elliott> oerjan: do iou happen to know anithing about bidirectional tipe checking, bi the wai
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13:25:32 <oerjan> shachaf: doesn't load for me
13:25:41 <oerjan> which might be just as well.
13:26:41 <shachaf> oerjan: Don't complain to me. Complaimc.
13:27:22 <oerjan> kmc: doesn't load for me
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13:35:24 <shachaf> oerjan: have you considered that only uncool people have no plans of coming to the usa
13:35:50 <oerjan> doesn't apply to me, i've already been there. hth.
13:36:43 <shachaf> yes but you currently have no plans
13:37:35 <oerjan> call me again when i don't have to worry about getting baggage confiscated hth
13:38:28 <fizzie> We don't have any plans of coming to the USA. (Then again, I can't really argue against "uncool" either.)
13:39:01 <fizzie> We do have a vague plan of going to Scotland not this but next summer, maybe that counts?
13:40:07 <shachaf> fizzie is cool, says my book
13:40:14 <shachaf> perhaps you have plans that you aren't aware of
13:41:02 <fizzie> Plans within plans within plans.
13:41:18 <fizzie> Maybe it's Scotland, USA.
13:43:01 <shachaf> fizzie: that's not how the USA works...................
13:43:22 <shachaf> there are at least 15 Scotlands in the USA
13:43:38 <elliott> fizzie: hexham is pretti close to scotland, consider visiting?
13:43:56 <shachaf> imo elliott should visit me
13:44:09 <shachaf> i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian
13:45:28 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian
13:45:32 <HackEgo> 1038) <shachaf> i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian
13:45:40 <oerjan> i'm such a sucker for quotes
13:46:18 <mnoqy> 1038 quotes is a lot.....how much % is bad
13:46:46 <shachaf> > 1037 / 1038 * 100 -- hth
13:47:02 <mnoqy> which is the good quote!! which
13:47:03 <HackEgo> 428) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality.
13:47:04 <HackEgo> 408) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
13:47:04 <HackEgo> 964) <doesthiswork> a comathmatician is a device for turning cotheorems into ffee
13:47:04 <HackEgo> 63) <AnMaster> I'm 100% of what sort of magic was involved in it
13:47:05 <HackEgo> 905) <oerjan> `pastequotes django <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5404 <olsner> I'm still in all of them :( <olsner> someone else get quoted saying django please
13:47:25 <elliott> imo all but maibe two or arguabli three of those are good
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13:50:13 <mnoqy> 428 is the best of those (it's excellent) and i don't feel particularly strongly about the others
13:52:32 <elliott> 964 is boring, 63 is i think subject of one of those quote wars of iore
13:55:10 <mnoqy> `pastequotes django
13:55:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8648
13:56:51 <HackEgo> 280) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
13:56:52 <HackEgo> 840) [after a quote deletion session] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
13:56:52 <HackEgo> 889) <fizzie> fungot: Are you the previous version of zzo38? <fungot> fizzie: i run some interactive tex programs
13:56:52 <HackEgo> 772) <Gregor> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
13:56:52 <HackEgo> 299) <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
13:57:21 <fungot> shachaf: i'm at 24 or so at least
14:00:03 <FireFly> fungot: you've deleted 24 quotes?!
14:00:03 <fungot> FireFly: it's rather like the srfi process. ultimately the only way i would use structures in place of? since it has builtin handling of network i/ o)
14:00:11 <fungot> shachaf: a stack overflow error in scheme48. this source file: http://magic.xmog.com/ js/ application date/ plt fnord/ teachpack/ htdp/ extended/ world.html though
14:00:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:00:19 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
14:00:23 <fungot> shachaf: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you want some jerky! will you sell to humans! get out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
14:00:34 <FireFly> I thought you wanted him to be quiet
14:00:54 <HackEgo> *poof* <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
14:01:05 <HackEgo> 886) <shachaf> oerjan: Comonads? <oerjan> shachaf: no, feather
14:01:06 <HackEgo> 679) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
14:01:06 <HackEgo> 273) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
14:01:07 <HackEgo> 661) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
14:01:07 <HackEgo> 129) * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
14:01:25 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> oerjan: Comonads? <oerjan> shachaf: no, feather
14:01:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7850
14:01:56 <mnoqy> what's up with 129
14:02:13 <mnoqy> but i assume there's a reason it's there????????????????????? maybe i assume too much
14:02:14 <HackEgo> *poof* * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
14:02:24 <shachaf> mnoqy: just asked a question and answered it in the next sentence
14:03:07 <HackEgo> 450) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster.
14:03:09 <HackEgo> 410) <Sgeo> I'm having nostalgia for when we could see the glass from the floor
14:03:11 <HackEgo> 791) <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
14:03:13 <HackEgo> 744) <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
14:03:15 <HackEgo> 539) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
14:04:07 <shachaf> 744 should be kept at all costs
14:04:41 <shachaf> 410 seems 'kinda point less"
14:05:25 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster.
14:06:02 * oerjan swats shachaf for deleting a second quote from the same batch -----###
14:06:02 <HackEgo> 501) <Patashu> But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is
14:06:02 <HackEgo> 404) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
14:06:03 <HackEgo> 476) <oklopol> i started running and smoking <oklopol> i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out
14:06:03 <HackEgo> 323) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
14:06:03 <HackEgo> 334) <zzo38> Learn to be Chinese and kill yourself
14:06:16 <shachaf> oerjan: we didn't delete any quote from the batch before that
14:06:19 <shachaf> oerjan: i had to balance it out
14:06:54 <mnoqy> is 404 a quote from somewhere
14:07:23 <elliott> its a reference to that one famous quote tho if that's what ou mean
14:08:17 <oerjan> shachaf: NO BALANCING. although i admit it was bad.
14:09:02 <shachaf> oerjan: why don't you tell that to oklopol "quote 476 reference"
14:09:43 <oerjan> because he's not here, apparently.
14:10:17 <HackEgo> 13) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
14:10:17 <HackEgo> 709) <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that
14:10:18 <HackEgo> 750) <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
14:10:18 <HackEgo> 330) <fizzie> [...] So it'll be a while before the boob will touch you back.
14:10:18 <HackEgo> 79) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
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14:12:05 <mnoqy> i like 750 and 330 but i don't get the rest
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14:14:35 <oerjan> they are memories of ancient memes
14:14:48 <HackEgo> 922) <kmc> a social network for household appliances <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
14:14:49 <HackEgo> 572) <Gregor> When my registrar is emailing me that codu.xxx is available, that's a problem.
14:14:49 <HackEgo> 951) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
14:14:50 <HackEgo> 445) <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
14:14:50 <HackEgo> 709) <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that
14:15:06 <shachaf> 709 really wants to be deleted
14:15:27 <oerjan> it will delete the universe too!
14:15:41 <elliott> mnoqy: don't iou know the ALTERATE unIVERSE series?
14:16:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that
14:16:19 <mnoqy> def. the worst of that set
14:16:24 <mnoqy> "decisions made easier"
14:16:28 <elliott> 709 is cute imo but i don't care that much
14:16:29 <shachaf> mnoqy mnoqy what did you do
14:16:33 <elliott> i would have erred towards 445
14:17:18 <shachaf> we have 34 quotes left to delete
14:17:30 <HackEgo> 659) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
14:17:31 <HackEgo> 232) <fizzie> file:///home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png -- yes, I think it's nice that way when the edge is always the opponent's flag.
14:17:31 <HackEgo> 924) <Phantom_Hoover> why the fuc <oerjan> i was very annoyed. <Phantom_Hoover> k <Phantom_Hoover> are my socks <Phantom_Hoover> in the wastebin
14:17:31 <HackEgo> 846) [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
14:17:31 <HackEgo> 864) <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
14:17:34 <HackEgo> 848) <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :(
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14:18:21 <elliott> mocking fizzie for linking to a file on his computer
14:18:48 <HackEgo> *poof* [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
14:18:50 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> file:///home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png -- yes, I think it's nice that way when the edge is always the opponent's flag.
14:19:07 <shachaf> i'm glad it didn't happen the other way
14:19:18 <elliott> mnoqy: req. second opinion
14:19:28 <HackEgo> 62) <oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program
14:19:28 <HackEgo> 523) <elliott> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad.
14:19:29 <HackEgo> 874) <kmc> i like the idea that if you name your country a Soviet Republic you automatically get the right to call up Lenin on the telephone and complain about bathroom pranks
14:19:30 <HackEgo> 944) <Bike> if you say "java" three times to a dark mirror does steele come out and lecture you about operator overloading
14:19:30 <mnoqy> it's a double batch
14:19:41 <mnoqy> we can't touch any of those though
14:19:55 <elliott> thankfulli i like all of those
14:19:56 <shachaf> do batches have to be contiguous
14:20:00 <mnoqy> whichever's most convenient
14:20:03 <elliott> does anione understand 924 btw
14:20:11 <mnoqy> 232 was cute but i don't care enough about it to restore it
14:20:25 <HackEgo> 158) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
14:20:25 <HackEgo> 223) <ineiros> HELLWORLD! <fizzie> It's like HELLO WORLD, except not *quite*. <ineiros> There is more agony.
14:20:26 <HackEgo> 433) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers.
14:20:26 <HackEgo> 405) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
14:20:27 <HackEgo> 837) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
14:20:45 <mnoqy> 924 [was] cute but ye i dont get it either
14:20:54 <elliott> 405 is probabli the weakest? imo none of these want deleting
14:21:18 <HackEgo> 383) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
14:21:18 <HackEgo> 438) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
14:21:31 <HackEgo> 528) <elliott> Vorpal: who needs cars when you can walk to latvia
14:21:31 <HackEgo> 578) <elliott> fizzie: It's like a JIT, if JITs were... strings.
14:21:32 <HackEgo> 912) <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary?
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14:22:05 <elliott> oerjan "another victim of the carnage"
14:22:49 <mnoqy> are any of those worth deleting? i dont think so
14:22:49 <shachaf> okay all these quotes are bad
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14:22:54 <shachaf> but none of them are bad enough to delete
14:23:00 <mnoqy> um 383 is excellent
14:23:13 <shachaf> 383 has its charm but only when you read it twice
14:23:16 <elliott> 383 is good, 528 and 578 are good (obviousli)
14:23:35 <elliott> 912 is sort of one of those cultural marks iou need to have aronud
14:23:41 <HackEgo> 853) <kmc> i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
14:23:41 <elliott> even if thei don't directli serve a purpose
14:23:42 <HackEgo> 227) [on egojoust] <elliott> The fact is that EgoBot's % handling is O(slow) and O(big), and mine isn't.
14:23:42 <HackEgo> 757) <elliott> i just whacked it <monqy> whacking is fine
14:23:42 <HackEgo> 996) <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
14:24:29 <mnoqy> i was going to go with 757 but okj
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14:25:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> i just whacked it <monqy> whacking is fine
14:25:43 <HackEgo> 339) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs.
14:25:44 <HackEgo> 657) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can.
14:25:45 <HackEgo> 300) <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed
14:25:45 <HackEgo> 8) <SimonRC> TODO: sex life
14:25:45 <HackEgo> 312) <Gregor> Google Maps has options for "avoid highways" and "avoid tolls", but no "avoid Chicago"
14:26:00 <HackEgo> *poof* <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed
14:26:08 <HackEgo> 483) <monqy> im hungary too...but cnnot eat until hours
14:26:08 <HackEgo> 334) <oklopol> yes i use the services of a psychic, but i'm considering getting a live one since stuff like "hello $name, your first name $first_name has |$first_name| letters, so by using numerology we can tell ..." is getting kind of boring
14:26:09 <HackEgo> 621) <shachaf> `quote themselves <HackEgo> No output. <shachaf> `quote norway <HackEgo> No output. <shachaf> `quote lunch <HackEgo> No output. <shachaf> Useless bot.
14:26:14 <HackEgo> 243) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
14:26:16 <HackEgo> 844) <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :(
14:26:41 <mnoqy> 621 is bad but 483 is also bad
14:27:30 <mnoqy> 844 is.....................special
14:27:45 <shachaf> but 844 doesn't deserve to live
14:28:09 <mnoqy> elliott: imo you decide
14:28:17 <elliott> 844 is not getting deleted its mi proudest moment
14:28:27 <shachaf> imo 844 is a very bad quote
14:28:34 <elliott> i wouldnt delete ani of these but i dont reall care about 621 or realli 243
14:28:44 <mnoqy> the first line of 844 is great but the rest of it i dont care for
14:29:02 <shachaf> mnoqy: no 844 is bad from the first character on
14:29:05 <elliott> mnoqy: ije 844 could do with truncation perhaps
14:29:09 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `quote themselves <HackEgo> No output. <shachaf> `quote norway <HackEgo> No output. <shachaf> `quote lunch <HackEgo> No output. <shachaf> Useless bot.
14:29:11 <HackEgo> 744) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
14:29:23 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
14:29:39 <elliott> i keep it in a little book in mi pocket
14:29:39 <HackEgo> 744) <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_
14:29:40 <shachaf> 744 is about monqy saying hi
14:29:49 <shachaf> you can't erase history, mnoqy
14:29:53 <HackEgo> 73) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
14:29:54 <HackEgo> 490) <elliott> we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic
14:29:54 <HackEgo> 219) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
14:29:57 <HackEgo> 846) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
14:29:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quopte: not found
14:29:59 <HackEgo> 266) <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf.
14:30:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
14:30:18 <shachaf> are there any good Warrigal quotes
14:30:29 <HackEgo> 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 47) <Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert. \ 49) <Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see? \ 61) <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you me
14:30:57 <mnoqy> all of those are bad
14:31:06 <Snowyowl> 47 isn't soul-wrenchingly horrible
14:31:32 <HackEgo> 61) <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21?
14:31:33 <shachaf> 47 is ok if you have no taste
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02:40:24 <shachaf> kmc: http://hpaste.org/86610
02:41:19 <kmc> yes, I agree, you should be required to put your 'do' statements on the next line
02:41:54 <Bike> http://www.moreright.net/
02:41:54 <shachaf> I don't think that was *quite* the point of that paste...
02:42:07 <kmc> shachaf: did you see http://sprunge.us/AcVL
02:42:28 <shachaf> From now on I'm going to indent all my code with poetry, rather than tabs or spaces.
02:42:46 <Bike> so... what's the problem with the first paste exactly
02:43:40 <shachaf> Bike: it's indenting with comments, that's all
02:45:12 <shachaf> kmc: That's not too surprising.
02:45:17 <Sgeo> Those statements wouldn't have to line up anyway...
02:45:40 <kmc> it's not surprising, just terribad
02:45:46 <kmc> (re switch/if)
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02:46:46 <Sgeo> Is moreright a parody of lesswrong?
02:46:57 <Bike> Not intentionally.
02:47:20 <Bike> It's a splinter group of less wrong, because less wrong was too liberal for 'em.
02:49:20 <kmc> los phygos
02:49:45 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke.
02:50:38 <Sgeo> I once knew someone who's name perfectly fits a scheme for Lojban gismu
02:50:45 <Sgeo> (Is gismu the word I'm looking for?)
02:51:24 <Bike> does anyone here actually... know lojban?
02:51:32 <Bike> also, fitting a constant-vowel pattern doesn't seem that weird?
02:51:50 <Sgeo> tswett used to like Lojban I think
02:51:57 <Sgeo> I know a little, not much
02:56:16 <Sgeo> http://longplayer.org/what/overview.php
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05:06:22 <kmc> first time i have read the bible it had struck me as unwitty i think it may start a rumor that the lord ain't got no humor
05:06:47 <kmc> put me inside SSC, let's test superstring theory
05:07:07 <kmc> ay yi yi yi, accelerating protons, i stir it twice, and then just add me
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05:39:51 <shachaf> kmc: some of the bible is pretty funny
05:40:26 <shachaf> i was talking to someone and they were saying that the story of samson isn't funny
05:40:59 <kmc> i don't know about this one
05:41:20 <kmc> "Samson had two vulnerabilities, however: his attraction to untrustworthy women and his hair, without which he was powerless."
05:41:34 <kmc> "Why can't I have money and hair and him nothing?"
05:41:43 <Bike> that about sums it up yeah
05:41:54 <Bike> also: i'd nominate zipporah at the inn myself
05:42:08 <pikhq> shachaf: When you're inside a religious context, the humor is hard to see.
05:42:55 <kmc> 'The Angel of the Lord then ascended up into the sky in the fire revealing that it had been God in angelic form, as the Angel of the Lord and "an" angel are two different things. This was such dramatic evidence as to the nature of the Messenger, that Manoah feared for his life, as it has been said that no-one can live after seeing God; however, his wife soon convinced him that if God planned to slay them, he would never have revealed
05:43:04 <kmc> wikipedia summaries of bible stories
05:43:07 <kmc> ladies and gentlemen
05:43:53 <shachaf> so the secret to his strength is that he never cuts his hair
05:44:15 <kmc> shachaf: should i get new glasses that aren't bent
05:44:22 <kmc> before i 'interview' for 'jobs'
05:44:36 <shachaf> oh boy are you 'interviewing' for 'jobs'
05:44:49 <kmc> don't know
05:45:04 <shachaf> do people pay attention to whether your glasses are bent
05:45:05 <kmc> i haven't emailed people yet
05:45:10 <kmc> maypbe they do!!!!!!!
05:45:12 * shachaf isn't an expert in all this interviewing business
05:45:18 <Bike> That would be kinda funny, if you got interviews but they didn't tell you where the interviewers were.
05:45:54 <kmc> i haven't started the process yet
05:45:55 <shachaf> anyway, delilah asks him "what's the secret of your strength" and he says "if you tie me up with so-and-so ropes, my strength will go away"
05:46:03 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
05:46:12 <shachaf> so she ties him up with so-and-so ropes
05:46:25 <Bike> "delilah, you got some 'splainin' to do!"
05:46:34 <shachaf> then she asks him again, and he tells her, ok, you have to use such-and-such ropes, and she does that
05:46:57 <shachaf> then she keeps asking him and he says "if you tie my hair up in such-and-such way then my strength will go away"
05:47:01 <shachaf> and she does that, and it doesn't work
05:47:15 <shachaf> and then she asks him again and he tells her the truth??
05:47:30 <Bike> It's stories like that that make me wonder if whatshisname wasn't on to something about the old testament being written by pre-behaviorally-modern humans.
05:47:56 <Bike> behaviorally-premodern. i got this. i'm a scientist
05:48:26 <shachaf> kmc: if your eyes are only medium-bad you could interview without glasses
05:49:26 <shachaf> wait, are glasses supposed to make you look smarter "important interview point"
05:49:49 <shachaf> maybe bent glasses make you look even smarter
05:50:18 <shachaf> kmc: where are you going to interview
05:50:56 <pikhq> Bike: What about that makes you think it's pre-modern?
05:51:17 <Bike> pikhq: The way it's fucking stupid, basically.
05:51:21 <kmc> shachaf: I think I will email Mozilla and also Matasano!
05:51:30 <kmc> we will see if either thinks I am good enough for an 'interview'
05:51:52 <Bike> (or, barely more seriously, it's very repetitive)
05:52:10 <kmc> would be interested to hear about any other places in SF area to which I should apply
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05:53:07 <shachaf> Well, if you're including Mountain View etc. then there are a bunch more places than just SF.
05:53:13 <kmc> that's true
05:53:13 <pikhq> Though it should be said, it seems the Old Testament is in some way connected to the religions of nearby cultures...
05:53:23 <kmc> i would really rather work in SF
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05:53:33 <kmc> but Matasano is in MV and sounds really cool¿
05:53:39 <pikhq> There's nice bits like "hmm, all the pantheon shows up, some of them as names of YHWH."
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05:53:53 <shachaf> i was at the stripe office today for bacat. nelhage works there so it must be cool right??
05:54:46 <kmc> what's a bacat? also yes
05:54:54 <shachaf> bay area categories and types
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05:58:22 <kmc> yes maybe I should apply to Stripe
06:00:47 <kmc> shachaf: twitter never answered me as to why they care if I like Firefly
06:01:42 <shachaf> Is this a "you must be similar to us to work here" sort of thing?
06:01:54 <Jafet> Is it ok if you like "The Avengers" instead
06:02:32 <kmc> yep https://twitter.com/jobs/positions?jvi=o0m7Wfw9,Job
06:03:00 <shachaf> Oh, *Linux Kernel Engineer*. That makes sense.
06:03:16 <shachaf> Every good Linux Kernel Engineer likes Firefly.
06:03:32 <Bike> The secret is that to understand Linux's code well, you have to unravel the comments, which are a net of technological tidbits hidden within Firefly references.
06:03:38 <kmc> see also http://depts.washington.edu/sibl/Publications/Cheryan,%20Plaut,%20Davies,%20&%20Steele%20(2009).pdf
06:03:41 <kmc> is what I said to them.
06:03:48 <shachaf> FireFly: i think FireFlys are p. cool
06:05:00 <Bike> kmc: You want us to read sixteen fucking pages to hire you?? think again bro!!!!
06:05:32 <kmc> broseraphim
06:05:40 <kmc> many-eyed broseraphim
06:05:59 <Bike> OK, wait, hold on.
06:06:11 <Bike> The university of BC has a "Department of Psychology and Computer Science"?
06:06:50 <Bike> is this some AI thing....
06:07:25 <shachaf> hey remember how slashdot had departments
06:08:14 <shachaf> are you spelling russian words in greek alphabets don't do that hth
06:08:35 <Jafet> “Further investigation revealed that the stereotypical broadcast a masculine stereotype that discouraged women’s sense of ambient belonging and subsequent interest in the environment but had no similar effect on men.”
06:08:36 <shachaf> because it looks like the hebrew cursive l
06:08:39 <ion> Department of Redundancy Department
06:08:54 <Jafet> This conclusion is unexpected
06:08:58 <kmc> hmmmmmmmm cursive hebrew is p. odd
06:09:07 <shachaf> i'm not sure if it's called cursive
06:09:12 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive_Hebrew
06:09:14 <Bike> Hm, I guess it's part of the "Irving K. Barber School of Arts and Sciences"
06:09:21 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hebrew_letter_Lamed_handwriting.svg
06:09:29 <kmc> itt ambient belonging
06:09:40 <kmc> which letter
06:09:46 <ion> לx → x + 1
06:09:56 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Warlord_era
06:11:06 <kmc> i was wondering, if there is any language which uses a well-known alphabet but assigns completely different sounds to each letter
06:11:23 <Jafet> kmc: you're using it
06:11:53 <lambdabot> ":-------------------------------------------------------------------------...
06:11:53 <Bike> You mean like, uses the Latin alpahbet but doesn't sound much like classical Latin?
06:12:05 <kmc> ok point taken, nerds
06:12:09 <Bike> Personally I'd look at well... anywhere in Asia.
06:12:13 <Bike> I mean have you seen Japanese.
06:12:20 <Bike> east asia, i should say
06:14:02 <kmc> WU. AMERICA!
06:14:18 <Bike> the cherokee alphabet is awesome and i will fight you if you disagree
06:14:48 <shachaf> Bike will fight you no matter what
06:14:49 <Bike> I guess it's a good example of what kmc's thinking of though.
06:14:57 <Bike> Since it was invented by an illiterate guy holy shit
06:15:01 <kmc> yeah, okay, this is p. much the perfect example
06:15:06 <kmc> of what I was thinking of though
06:15:10 <Bike> "welp just gonna invent writing"
06:15:17 <lifthrasiir> Bike: he became self-literate by self-designed script
06:15:21 <kmc> swag overload
06:15:22 <Bike> "don't worry i got this shit"
06:15:25 <shachaf> http://www.almightydad.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/calvin-hobbes-bike-2.jpg
06:15:34 <shachaf> http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100805194802/candh/images/a/a2/Bike.gif
06:15:47 <shachaf> http://pacificpedaling.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/calvinbike.gif
06:16:06 <shachaf> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JSU4o4C7xr8/Tb7N9dFaqqI/AAAAAAAACuY/9RHle8IXMcE/s1600/calvin-bike.jpg
06:16:15 <kmc> itt bicycles are hard to lern?
06:16:36 <Bike> that boy ain't got shit on me
06:16:59 <shachaf> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MTLuYsHo2uE/Rv7P4NFM9fI/AAAAAAAAAEA/KsTyY26-UDk/s400/calvin-bike1.jpg
06:17:10 <shachaf> OK Bike, listen up! I don't like you and you don't like me.
06:17:16 <Bike> I don't know much about the history of Cyrillic.
06:17:27 <Bike> Like I guess there was a Saint Cyril involved? ANd it's based on Byzantine Greek probably?
06:17:33 <kmc> all this ethanol is affecting my brain
06:17:37 <shachaf> But I've got the tools to reduce you to a pile of pipes, sprockets, and ball bearings! Do we understand each other?
06:17:46 <kmc> shachaf is the incredible machine
06:18:01 <shachaf> zomg the incredible machine
06:18:22 <kmc> shachaf: sounds like you need to download some slavic paleography texts from russian rapidshare!!!!!
06:19:02 <kmc> omgggggggg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
06:19:08 <kmc> someone uploaded a better glyph
06:19:12 <kmc> with 10 eyes
06:19:16 <Bike> godspeed, someone.
06:19:18 <kmc> take that, unicode consortium
06:19:25 <Bike> fight the power. fight the consortium
06:19:37 <kmc> 12 codepoints guiltied to a zegnatronic rocket society
06:20:09 <kmc> серафими многоꙮчитїи
06:20:42 <Bike> itt kmc gets high and talks ortho
06:22:15 <shachaf> how drunk are you right now
06:22:42 <kmc> 'This work "opened the eyes of Belarusians to see themselves as a real nation" putting them (in the beginning of the 20th century) "unexpectedly at the head of all the Slavonic people in the scientific knowledge about their language"'
06:23:17 <Bike> things I know about belaurs: probably fucked during WWII?
06:23:36 <kmc> who wasn't
06:23:45 <kmc> answer: AMERICA!!!!!
06:24:20 <kmc> america: showing up late to every war, taking credit
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06:28:10 <Bike> British propaganda, in large part
06:28:29 <Bike> maybe Wilson's grandiose visions to some extent
06:29:20 <Bike> Yeah, the Lusitania was the direct cause.
06:29:28 <Jafet> What about the them
06:29:43 <shachaf> Jafet: HackEgo also has an entry for the THEM.
06:31:45 <ThatOtherPerson> When it comes to stupid wars, WWI has to be one of the stupidest.
06:32:11 <kmc> falklands war
06:32:39 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Siachen Glacier.
06:33:52 <Bike> Everything about that area is pretty fantastically insane, really
06:33:57 <kmc> it's amazing how many times india and pakistan have gone to war without whipping out the nukes
06:34:23 <Bike> I think the secret is that even dumbassed hawks have to think "are we really gonna do it over a fucking glacier"
06:34:34 <ThatOtherPerson> Yeah, but at least they actually had something that they disagreed about and decide to kill each other because of it
06:35:07 <kmc> also you've reminded me of Shebaa farms
06:35:14 <Bike> «The 1972 Simla Agreement did not clearly mention who controlled the glacier, merely stating that from the NJ9842 location the boundary would proceed "thence north to the glaciers." UN officials presumed there would be no dispute between India and Pakistan over such a cold and barren region.»
06:35:23 <ThatOtherPerson> Instead of having nothing that they disagreed about and decide to kill each other because someone else killed someone else
06:35:24 <kmc> Syria and Lebanon agree that it's part of Lebanon but Israel claims that it's part of Syria under military occupation
06:35:51 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: well, treaties are important. and it had broader reasons than that.
06:36:01 <kmc> "Their conclusion was based on the facts that: a) some area residents paid taxes to Lebanon"
06:36:03 <Bike> Like "fucking slavs, die" for instance
06:36:04 <kmc> in ottoman era
06:36:11 <kmc> the most accurate records are the tax records
06:37:37 <Bike> I mean, saying "haha, archduke, let's kill twenty million" is funny and all, but people aren't actually that silly, they have other reasons.
06:40:04 <Bike> for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars wrt 'someone else killed someone else'
06:40:21 <kmc> stalin smiles and churchill laughs, hitler claps mao tse tung on the back
06:40:25 <ThatOtherPerson> If I recall correctly, the Balkan regions had been part of the Ottoman Empire, and had been wanting to be independent for years
06:40:47 <Bike> Yes, the Ottoman empire was full of nationalists.
06:40:54 <Bike> You can see the consequences today in the wonderful life of the Kurds
06:42:37 <kmc> how could ottoman empire even be nationalist
06:42:45 <kmc> when it's full of all kinds of strange & wonderful places
06:42:54 <ThatOtherPerson> I can understand that, it's just almost silly that the alliances blew up the conflict to such proportions
06:42:57 <Bike> Full of nationalists as in full of nationalists for strange and wonderful places, not for the ottoman empire.
06:43:10 <Bike> Or is that another song lyric
06:43:43 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: it's not like russia and germany didn't already want a go at one another, I mean.
06:44:59 <Bike> If it makes you feel better, there were a couple wars in China that killed way more people that you've never heard of.
06:45:13 <Bike> And deaths from disease in WWI outstripped deaths from combat anyway.
06:47:10 <kmc> also there was an earthquake in china that killed 830,000 people in 1556
06:47:14 <Bike> Taiping Rebellion is pretty crazy really. Dude was like "Hey, you know what? Jesus!" And then Jesus. Also a couple dozen million people died.
06:47:43 <kmc> how do you even deal with such an event
06:47:46 <kmc> as a civilization
06:47:49 <Bike> Write Candide?
06:47:54 <kmc> how do you not just conclude that god hates you
06:48:01 <Bike> Oh, uh. Can't help you there.
06:48:01 <kmc> hmmmmmm good idea
06:48:06 <Bike> Since that's literally what Candide is about?
06:48:12 <Bike> "Earthquake. Guess God hates us."
06:49:45 <ThatOtherPerson> Part of the reason the driving here is so bad is because the people here say that they will die exactly when God wants them to die
06:50:21 <ThatOtherPerson> They have a word for it, "enshalah", which means "God willing"
06:50:41 <Bike> is it like 'allahu akbar'
06:50:51 <Bike> because i watch a lot of syrian videos and i swear they use it even more than i cuss
06:51:43 <ThatOtherPerson> My dad's argument against that is something like: "Well then, God must hate you, since you have a higher number of deaths from car accidents then nearly anywhere else"
06:52:56 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: they don't say "Allahu Akbar (God is greatest)" that much, except maybe in religious ceremonies
06:53:19 <ThatOtherPerson> For example, you can hear them saying it during prayer call
06:53:45 <Bike> I mean a lot of the time it's in a context where i'd say something insightful like "oh shit" or "haha fuck yes!" or "oh god, oh god i'm going to die", but it seems like more than that.
06:54:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: are said videos from religious leaders or highly religious people?
06:55:09 <Bike> Most of the videos I watch are about killing tanks or getting bombed and stuff.
06:55:21 <Bike> I mean, Syria's a different place from Saudi Arabia, obviously, I'm just wondering.
06:56:19 <ThatOtherPerson> One of the things that result from forcing an entire country's population to belong to a religion is that most people aren't very religious
06:57:37 <Bike> syria was socialist, i doubt they had that particular problem
06:58:53 <pikhq> ThatOtherPerson: They are religious to exactly the degree they're forced to, y'mean? :P
07:17:08 <Bike> *ten minutes of guitar feedback and screaming*
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07:43:50 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrows-Wheeler_Transform#Bijective_variant is really awful :'(
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07:59:33 <ThatOtherPerson> I think I have played more games over the last couple of days then I have ever played before in my life
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08:10:52 <kmc> shachaf: why
08:11:48 <shachaf> maybe the person who wrote it didn't care or didn't speak much english or who knows!!!!!!
08:22:59 <olsner> I find the BWT a bit mysterious and magical
08:23:18 <coppro> ThatOtherPerson: you should play Agora
08:23:23 <olsner> the burrows-wheeler transform
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08:29:56 <coppro> http://agoranomic.org/
08:30:50 <ThatOtherPerson> I played that once with some people from another IRC channel
08:31:46 <coppro> it's approaching its 20th birthday!
08:35:48 <coppro> yeah, so don't read them all
08:35:59 <coppro> just subscribe to the mailing lists, try to follow along
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08:48:26 <pikhq> It was rather fun when I was in it.
08:49:35 <coppro> pikhq: you should be in it more
08:50:23 <pikhq> Been dealing with personal shit. Alas.
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10:08:31 <impomatic> I should read up on BWT to see what's new.
10:09:08 <impomatic> I implemented it when DDJ published the article in the 90's.
10:10:46 <impomatic> DDJ used to be a decent magazine...
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14:18:40 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:20:04 <oerjan> @ask NihilistDandy Wait, what was that about?
14:20:32 <oerjan> maybe it's in the missing logs
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14:22:07 <oerjan> elliott: hm no it doesn't.
14:22:08 <shachaf> Now you won't see the things I said to you while you were away.
14:22:29 <oerjan> shachaf: how terrible, also GET A WIKIPEDIA ACCOUNT
14:22:39 <shachaf> oerjan: I HAVE A WIKIPEDIA ACCOUNT hth
14:22:53 <oerjan> well YSE UT FOR EDITNING
14:23:12 * oerjan thinks that was better with the tyos
14:24:33 <oerjan> <mnoqy> ugh now 49 isn't deleted, i bet <-- IT SHOULDN'T BE IT DIDN'T COME FROM A PROPER BATCH hth
14:24:57 <oerjan> @tell mnoqy <mnoqy> ugh now 49 isn't deleted, i bet <-- IT SHOULDN'T BE IT DIDN'T COME FROM A PROPER BATCH hth
14:25:37 <oerjan> the last quote deleted before the bots croaked hth
14:26:33 <shachaf> oerjan: what if i just promise to mentally append hth to everything you say
14:26:51 <oerjan> that would be awfully redundant hth
14:27:13 <shachaf> oerjan: then you could stop appending hth to everything you say hth
14:27:47 <oerjan> itt we aren't afraid of little acronyms afaik hth
14:29:16 <fizzie> The Heavy Transport Helicopter (HTH) is a program study into the European Heavy Lift Helicopter Program by Eurocopter.
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14:44:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130502-fungotg.flac that time of the day again
14:44:49 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find! just like crono! you had me so long to return to your era.
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14:52:37 <ThatOtherPerson> http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/05/02/Saudi-Arabia-says-five-dead-from-new-SARS-like-virus.html <-- well that is slightly disturbing ._.
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16:04:38 <shachaf> oerjan: coffee is bad for you hth
16:06:18 <Taneb> shachaf: it is quit coffee time
16:08:51 <Taneb> Is programming almost exclusively in Haskell bad for you?
16:10:33 <ThatOtherPerson> Well, programming languages with other programming styles than functional programming probably helps you think in different ways
16:10:51 <ThatOtherPerson> And vice versa, which is why I need to start learning Haskell sooner or later :P
16:12:50 <boily> Haskell is good for your brains.
16:19:33 <boily> it liquefies them and induces categorical thinking.
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16:46:34 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: once you're used to the sloshing every time you move around, that's no worse than having solid brains.
16:46:55 <boily> besides, you can put goldfish in your skull when the content's been liquefied.
16:47:01 <boily> lots of nutrients. good for the fishes.
16:47:25 <ThatOtherPerson> Of course, the brain is mainly liquid anyway, it's just that there's a little bit of lipids and whatnot holding it all in place.
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17:15:00 <fizzie> Taneb and Notch. Both have an "n". QED.
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18:20:47 <NihilistDandy> @tell oerjan Wolfram's Turing machine numbering was what that was about.
18:21:11 <lambdabot> NihilistDandy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:38:59 <Taneb> DO ANY AIRLINES PROVIDE IN-FLIGHT INTERNET
18:39:26 <Taneb> Are you an airline
18:39:49 <Taneb> Gregor: can you give me an example of airline/price?
18:39:51 <Gregor> See http://www.gogoair.com/
18:40:00 <Lumpio-> any airline/ridiculously expensive
18:40:03 <Gregor> (I don't know of any other "brand", Gogo seems to be on plenty of my flights)
18:41:37 <fizzie> Norwegian has their own in-flight wifi on their flights.
18:42:21 <fizzie> http://www.norwegian.com/uk/travel-information/travel-services/wifi/
18:42:34 <fizzie> Doesn't mention prices. Possibly the reservation system has them.
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18:43:05 <fizzie> Possibly it's even without an extra fee, who knows.
18:43:12 <Taneb> You have satisfied my brother's curiosity
18:43:38 <fizzie> I hear Finnair is piloting the service at the moment, but they haven't rolled it out yet.
18:44:18 <fizzie> ("Finnair started testing on Wednesday, using wireless internet and tablet computers onboard one of its intercontinental Airbus A330 aeroplanes. The two-month trial will also examine how passengers use tablets during the flight.")
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18:44:43 <fizzie> (Wednesday == March 20th.)
18:45:19 <kmc> sometimes you can use it for free with iodine
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18:47:15 <fizzie> Lumpio-: On the other hand, I think Norwegian charges separately for all food, soft drinks, and everything else. (Except possibly water, I think.)
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18:49:48 <Gregor> On US-based airlines the norm is free soda or coffee and nothing else.
18:50:09 <Gregor> Food is almost never free, except maybe a bag of nuts or pretzels if you're lucky.
18:50:28 <kmc> you still get free food on long international flights
18:51:14 <fizzie> Finnair charges for... strong alcoholic drinks, I think. But the free food offerings have been scaled down for shorter flights.
18:51:26 <fizzie> There's also a difference between charter flights and scheduled flights.
18:51:49 <kmc> i took like a one hour flight from LHR to AMS on KLM and got a baguette with cheese!
18:51:52 <kmc> but then they lost my bags.
18:52:02 <kmc> bags > baguettes
18:52:13 <kmc> also that was in 2007
18:52:20 <kmc> long long ago
18:52:33 <fizzie> I got a bag of nuts and a glass of apple juice on the Seattle-Portland flight. And they also lost (well, didn't manage to get it on the plane in time, actually) my bags.
18:52:38 <fizzie> Bags > nuts, I suppose.
18:52:50 <fizzie> Though they came just an hour later on the next flight, so maybe it doesn't quite count as "lost".
18:53:29 <kmc> yeah mine came the next day
18:53:53 <fizzie> (The AMS-SEA flight was a bit late, so I had to run to catch the plane myself. Seattle airport was kind of moderately-biggish and slightly confusing.)
18:54:43 <Gregor> In all my many flights, my bags have never been lost or misplaced.
18:54:54 <Gregor> But then, I live a blessed life.
18:55:11 <boily> Gregor: you are voiced. of course your life is blessed.
18:55:12 <fizzie> Also the SEA-PDX leg was an Alaska Airlines flight, and something like 45 or 50 minutes. It was kind of silly.
18:55:50 <Gregor> fizzie: I not-infrequently have to take an ORD->IND flight as the last leg of travel. I live between the two airports.
18:56:27 <fizzie> Gregor: Can't you jump out of the plane midway there?
18:58:17 <Gregor> I could, but I doubt they'd redirect my bags.
18:58:44 <fizzie> You can first drop them off with their own little parachutes.
18:59:04 <Gregor> I'd have to break into the cargo compartment to do that tho.
19:00:41 <boily> can you access the cargo from the passengers' cabin?
19:01:52 <Taneb> Today I realised that my normal speaking voice is actually higher than my natural speaking voice
19:02:01 <Taneb> I'm really excited all the time
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19:24:58 <Gregor> Then you took lethargy to the knee?
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19:36:54 <quintopia> should i make a very narrow penis shaped thing back at you?
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19:43:06 <quintopia> i see that you've punctuated your doubling of the last shape i made
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19:51:33 <boily> quintopia: hi quintopia..
19:52:05 <boily> yeah. it's become a reflex to punctuate everything.
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19:58:21 <boily> what's your version?
19:59:13 <Taneb> The kind with the light that goes in computers or the kind that keeps mosquitoes out?
20:00:11 <fizzie> Be all different, go with tmux.
20:00:24 <quintopia> do you have a better version boily
20:00:26 <boily> fizzie: never managed to get tmux configured as I like.
20:00:36 <fizzie> I have the very same version of screen.
20:00:49 <boily> quintopia: I have 4.00.03, without that mysterious jw4.
20:01:12 <quintopia> fizzie: groups are broken in this version
20:01:37 <fizzie> "Support non-BMP utf8 characters": latest commit message from screen.git
20:02:15 <fizzie> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/screen.git
20:02:23 <fizzie> Lots of GNU things have gits there.
20:03:08 <fizzie> It's not a terribly active git, it seems.
20:05:45 <kmc> fizzie: woah
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20:09:54 <boily> the 0.12 tournament is coming up soon! I wonder if I'll get a win during it.
20:10:35 <elliott> boily: yo i just switched to #esoteric from ##crawl and you confused the fuck out of me
20:11:22 <boily> elliott: MWAH AH AH AH AH AH!
20:12:39 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: a veritable shachaf eh
20:12:54 <kmc> hi elliott
20:15:30 <boily> a Canadian shachaf, eh?
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20:17:48 <Taneb> elliott: I believe ThatOtherPerson found this channel because I mentioned it elsewhere
20:18:12 <elliott> so if i mention #2,000 will he join it
20:18:30 <boily> channels can have commas in their names?
20:18:52 <elliott> freenode doesn't follow the standard, try it
20:19:01 <elliott> hey don't take my word for it, try /j #2,000
20:19:21 <elliott> if it sends JOIN #2,000 it parts every channel
20:19:36 <boily> if I /join 2,000, I end up in 2 and 000.
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20:20:31 <boily> /quit is not the same as /close. /quit is not the same as /close.
20:20:41 <kmc> boily hoily
20:21:09 <elliott> it's fun to stay at the y w m c
20:21:18 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: Well, in general, if someone mentions a channel, I'll join it because I am curious and want to know everything.
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20:22:17 <boily> #myhovercraftisfullofeels
20:22:17 <kmc> ##animalsex
20:22:46 <kmc> ##howtodisposeofcorpses
20:22:58 <kmc> ##illegalfirearms
20:23:13 <kmc> (the joke is that PHP is worse than all of those things)
20:23:33 <kmc> i bet #php is an experience
20:23:36 <elliott> some channels freenode specifically directs you to a channel saying that they don't have a channel for that and you must be kidding
20:23:36 <kmc> i'm going to join #php now
20:23:47 <elliott> kmc: it used to be pretty bad
20:23:53 <kmc> if I'm not heard from in 24 hours, call the national guard
20:24:20 <kmc> la php no es buena para su salud
20:24:56 <quintopia> elliott: so like #childpron gets redirected i guess?
20:25:20 <elliott> quintopia: #gnaa does, dunno about any others
20:26:10 <Gregor> <kmc> ##animalsex // Too bad the animal sex lobby couldn't register an /official/ channel on Freenode?
20:26:34 <Bike> i clearly missed something
20:26:35 <Phantom__Hoover> it's actually just about animals having sex with each other
20:26:57 <kmc> like they do on the discovery channel
20:27:12 <Bike> a fascinating topic really
20:27:13 <quintopia> sexing animals can be quite difficult
20:27:23 <Bike> like, bone worms? them's some wacky shit.
20:27:32 <kmc> my girlfriend has a book on sexual reproduction in higher fungi
20:27:35 <kmc> it's v. strange
20:28:00 <kmc> also there are mushrooms growing in my front yard today
20:28:05 <elliott> kmc: she bought it to improve your sex life BURRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
20:28:08 <kmc> not sure which kind, probably not edible
20:28:09 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-explains-how-they-get-all-those-cars-on-the,32288/ good president
20:28:19 <Bike> kmc: what makes a fungus higher?
20:28:27 <elliott> every time kmc says something there's a little thread in my brain that tries to work out how to turn it into a burn
20:28:30 <Bike> also yes fungus sex is pretty wack
20:28:35 <elliott> when i die it will be the last part to go out
20:28:58 <Gregor> I didn't realize that fungi reproduced sexually.
20:29:01 <Bike> i'm not sure my favorite fungi spore thing is the guns, or the soccer balls
20:29:14 <Bike> Gregor: it's not universal
20:29:15 <kmc> Bike: i think it means, like, macroscopic structured things rather than yeast and molds
20:29:18 <kmc> i'm not sure
20:29:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikarya gives a somewhat different definition
20:29:33 <Bike> interesting fungi
20:29:39 <kmc> yeast and molds are interesting!!!
20:29:41 <Bike> well, i guess slime molds are interesting too
20:29:45 <elliott> ok kmc's new tactic of ignoring my burns is upsettingly effective
20:29:51 <kmc> slime molds aren't fungi
20:29:58 <Bike> but they are awesome
20:30:01 <Gregor> Bike: I didn't realize that ANY fungi reproduced sexually.
20:30:07 <kmc> they can design road networks
20:30:07 <Gregor> I thought that was a plants-and-animals thing.
20:30:20 <Bike> Gregor: let me tell you about horizontal gene transfer!!!
20:30:35 <elliott> HELP #ESOTERIC BECAME ABOUT BIOLOGY WHEN I WASN'T LOOKING
20:30:44 <Bike> my influence is insidious and perfect
20:30:54 <Bike> also you... were looking, this entire time
20:30:57 <Phantom__Hoover> "Male Osedax are microscopic dwarfs that live as "harems" inside the lumen of the gelatinous tube that surrounds each female. An individual female can house hundreds of these males in her tube." there's a joke here but i can't quite see it
20:31:01 <Bike> unless you were typing all those burns without reading the screen?
20:31:11 <Bike> like, "well, i bet kmc said something about fungi"
20:31:17 <Bike> "it's that time of the day"
20:31:21 <Bike> "better insult him"
20:31:22 <elliott> i am "next level" like that
20:31:45 <Bike> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating_in_fungi please it incorporate in sexual escapades
20:31:48 <kmc> Gregor: most mushrooms produce spores which grow haploid organisms, and when two sexually compatible ones meet, they merge and the cell nuclei actually move around and you end up with cells that have two nuclei (!!)
20:31:56 <kmc> and then that can produce a fruiting body
20:32:09 <elliott> is there anything greater than !s in parentheses
20:32:22 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `i0' in the constraint:
20:32:23 <Taneb> elliott: want to talk about not-biology
20:32:30 <Gregor> And us higher mammals just go sticking our penises places.
20:32:30 <kmc> > (!!) "goats" 3
20:32:33 <elliott> NO TANEB except maybe taneb
20:32:36 <Bike> wow that was terrible for three or four reasons
20:32:44 <elliott> all I want to talk about these days is dependent types I think
20:32:47 <elliott> not much else is interesting
20:33:04 <Taneb> Can you explain dependent types to me!
20:33:05 <elliott> oh i like that onion article re: whoever linked it, i just scrolled up and it's Bike
20:33:07 <Bike> you should write a really fucking stupid paper about how dependent types are relevant to what you imagine biology is
20:33:17 <elliott> actually i scrolled up and noticed it was bike before I typed "whoever linked it"
20:33:22 <Bike> cross-disciplinary work is all the rage
20:33:22 <elliott> but I had already decided to type that
20:33:36 <Taneb> Are they anything to do with type dependencies
20:33:38 <Bike> good to stick to your "whoever linked it"-related guns
20:33:54 <Bike> when a type and a natural love each other very much....
20:34:27 <elliott> Taneb: what is a type dependency
20:34:35 <Taneb> I think I made them up
20:34:51 <Taneb> Some combination of functional dependencies and type families maybe
20:35:01 <Bike> they don't have to be natural, but you start with the basics and then move up to the kinkiness
20:35:54 <elliott> Bike: have you fucking learned haskell yet, imo
20:36:06 <Bike> in... your opinion?
20:36:48 <Taneb> In your opinion have I learnt Haskell
20:36:50 <Bike> so you're asking, "Have you fucking learned haskell yet, in my opinion?"
20:37:12 <Bike> in which case i must answer negatively, because I don't think my haskell would ever be good enough for your fuckingn high standards.
20:37:16 <elliott> stop playing games and answer my question
20:37:21 <elliott> you cant avoid my judgement
20:37:30 <Bike> no i'm seriously confused here
20:37:39 <Bike> i mean like, i know basic haskell, i read lyah and stuff
20:37:45 <Bike> but is that good enough??
20:37:53 <elliott> how many programs have you written in haskell Bike!!!
20:38:15 <Bike> probably like, one
20:38:39 <Taneb> That's like maybe a twelth of the number of haskell programs I've written
20:38:52 <Bike> i am a month to taneb's year
20:39:01 <Bike> is that "good enough" for "elliott""?"
20:39:41 <elliott> anyway write some more you asshole
20:39:49 <elliott> ask and/or answer haskell questions on stack overflow
20:39:54 <elliott> something that shows me you're a haskell user
20:40:18 <Bike> why is this important
20:40:23 <Bike> i don't even have a stack overflow account?
20:40:36 <elliott> yeah you already told me you're underachieving, no need to repeat yourself
20:40:59 <elliott> i'm disappointed in you Bike but i feel that you could get better
20:41:05 <olsner> underachieving is great, leaves you lots of room to improve
20:41:07 <elliott> you just need to show me what you're made of
20:41:34 <Bike> mostly aluminum i think
20:41:48 <elliott> make that aluminium and haskell
20:42:08 <Bike> i heard haskell was made by mathematicians
20:42:09 <elliott> (please remember only nightly toil oxidates)
20:42:13 <Bike> and math is the language of the universe
20:42:19 <Bike> so really aren't we all haskell
20:42:21 <elliott> i heard you need to shut up and get coding
20:42:27 <elliott> hey how about write a patch for lens
20:42:28 <kmc> elliott management techniques
20:42:32 <elliott> have you read typeclassopedia
20:43:15 <Bike> dude it's boring
20:43:32 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: I think "aluminum" was originally a typo, just one that caught on in the US
20:43:47 <elliott> literally anything anyone has ever said about lisp
20:44:09 <elliott> generally this works easier if you cry btw
20:44:11 <Bike> no i mean like
20:44:13 <Bike> i get moods man
20:44:25 <Bike> right now i'm in a mood for pre-communist chinese history
20:44:28 <Bike> how do i use haskell for that
20:44:38 <elliott> consider the plight of the chinese people who did not even know haskell
20:44:43 <elliott> strive to not be like them
20:44:46 <elliott> strive to teach EVERY chinese person haskell
20:44:51 <elliott> step 1. become a haskell expert
20:44:59 <Bike> why is haskell important
20:45:03 <Bike> why do you care, why do i have to care
20:45:23 <kmc> because Real Programmers know haskell, duh
20:45:53 <Bike> i'm not even a programmer i'm just a guy who programs and has been scared the fuck out of the information industry by eerybody in it
20:46:06 <kmc> what about us
20:46:12 * kmc hopes he isn't scary
20:46:17 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: "Sir Humphry made a bit of a mess of naming this new element, at first spelling it alumium (this was in 1807) then changing it to aluminum, and finally settling on aluminium in 1812."
20:46:19 <FreeFull> Real programmers know all programming languages
20:46:37 <Bike> i don't mean that you're scary
20:46:41 <Phantom__Hoover> <Bike> right now i'm in a mood for pre-communist chinese history
20:46:41 <Bike> i mean you say "this fucking sucks" a lot
20:46:59 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: "Why are there two names? Sir Humphry Davy proposed the name aluminum, back before the element was officially discovered. However, the name 'aluminium' was adopted to conform with the -ium names of most other elements. In 1925, the American Chemical Society decided to go back to the original aluminum"
20:47:00 <Bike> well, i guess mostly the qing dynasty
20:47:07 <Bike> "only a few centuries"
20:47:09 <kmc> i complain about the culture of the loudest / most obnoxious parts of the industry
20:47:18 <kmc> but i've actually had pretty good luck avoiding that in my personal employment history
20:47:25 <kmc> it can be done
20:47:26 <Bike> i mean fiora has a cool job too
20:47:28 <elliott> Bike: i care because you do
20:47:32 <kmc> if you are good enough to be picky about where you work
20:47:32 <Bike> but those loud parts man, those loud parts
20:47:35 <Bike> i... don't care?
20:47:43 <elliott> Bike: can't get in the way of my ref sry
20:47:48 <elliott> anyway you care because i told you to
20:47:57 <Bike> fight the power
20:48:00 <kmc> i felt bad working at a web startup just by association with the web startup industry
20:48:19 <Bike> there can be multiple powers!
20:49:05 <Bike> that's why i'm fighting the powers
20:49:10 <Bike> how does it feel to be The Man elliott
20:49:58 <ThatOtherPerson> What if all this time Bike has actually been my bike in my garage?
20:50:36 <Bike> i'm a wardriver
20:50:45 <kmc> i used to be a warschoolbusrider
20:51:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Or maybe all the bikes in the world are merely manifestations of the being which we call Bike
20:51:19 <kmc> with my sharp zaurus and my Compact Flash wifi card
20:53:32 <quintopia> maybe there is only one Bike travelling forward and backward through time
20:53:51 <Bike> the one-bike universe theory
20:54:14 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: http://25.media.tumblr.com/423658df012fb92564d411284b349e6e/tumblr_mlz3fgpiIS1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg
20:54:28 <Vorpal> kmc, what was the antenna quality on that?
20:55:27 <Vorpal> kmc, I would imagine a modern phone with 11n would work better, it could cover more frequencies for a start.
20:55:43 <kmc> this was 802.11b only
20:56:00 <kmc> g was fancy high tech at this point in time
20:56:04 <elliott> did you have to reconnect like everyfive seconds
20:56:15 <Vorpal> kmc, Btw, I noticed that several quite recent devices that *can* do more than 54 mbps (thus more than 11g) can still not detect my 5 GHz network.
20:56:33 <kmc> yeah I think there's 2.4 GHZ-only n hardware
20:56:35 <Vorpal> is supporting the 5 GHz band optional or something?
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20:56:43 <Vorpal> kmc, that is pretty stupid
20:56:49 <kmc> it's cheaper I guess?
20:56:55 <Vorpal> my laptop and my phone can both do 5 GHz though
20:59:02 <Vorpal> hm, I'm so used to 60 Hz on my phone now that I just can't stand old pre-4.1 Android devices any more.
20:59:32 <Vorpal> Had to deal with one yesterday, it was a nightmare.
21:00:13 <Bike> what, refresh rate?
21:01:09 <Vorpal> Bike, Android 4.1 and later uses vsync at 60 Hz throughout the system, including for input reading
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21:01:28 <Vorpal> this makes the experience much more smooth.
21:01:47 <Vorpal> After getting used to it, dealing with devices from before that time is just annoying
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21:02:46 <Vorpal> Oh, dropbox added two step auth now
21:02:57 <Vorpal> You can even use the google app for it
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21:07:08 <Bike> do you expect me to answer that in public
21:09:43 <Taneb> My plans to finally watch Supernatural have been scuppered by slow internet speeds
21:10:50 <elliott> what kind of euphemisms do bikes use for sex
21:11:38 <Bike> bikes don't have sex..........
21:12:12 <Bike> how do you think? we get built obviously
21:12:41 <Taneb> It's kind of like in that movie
21:16:04 <Taneb> Night, ThatOtherPerson
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21:27:01 <Taneb> Is there a way to sort of transfer a half-finished torrent to another computer
21:27:01 <Taneb> Like, "this computer should do this torrent for a bit"
21:27:09 <Taneb> "and then send everything back to that computer when that computer gets turned on again in the morning"
21:30:54 <boily> rtorrent does a hash check on files, then continues where it was left off, so you could do that, yes.
21:31:17 <Taneb> boily: could I do it via ssh with transmission-bt?
21:35:22 <boily> eeeeh, maybe. haven't used transmission that much, and always locally.
21:37:18 <Vorpal> Taneb, why not let it run on one computer?
21:37:30 <Taneb> Vorpal: I have to turn this computer off in a bit
21:37:53 <Vorpal> Taneb, presumably you would be able to sync using bittorrent though, that is what the protocol is for
21:38:06 <Vorpal> a giant distributed file syncing protocol.
21:38:26 <kmc> hm, I think there are some torrent clients that will pull chunks preferentially from local network machines
21:38:38 <kmc> so maybe it would be good enough to just run the client on both machines simultaneously :)
21:38:43 <Vorpal> ktorrent can do that iirc
21:40:05 <Vorpal> I personally use rtorrent these days though
21:41:09 <kmc> arrrrrrrrrtorrent
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21:47:57 <Taneb> I have a really cool system for turning my computer on remotely
21:48:20 <Taneb> It's called "message my brother on Facebook and ask him nicely"
21:51:01 <Bike> positively domotic.
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23:00:44 <kmc> ##php failed to provide any epic lulz (i think that's what the kids call it these days)
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23:11:27 <elliott> ask them if they have a problem, I hear this is an effective way to troll anybody!!!
23:12:52 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: are you mad
23:13:43 <elliott> sounds like you have a problem
23:13:58 <Bike> ?detartsurf uoy era
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23:16:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:17:11 <kmc> now elliott has two problems
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16:39:28 <Phantom__Hoover> although apparently KCl doesn't actually taste like salt so the original point is kind of moot
16:39:41 <boily> Bike: no, salt's can't be molecules, as they are inorganic. their formulæs describe the proportions of the atoms in thei crystalline structure.
16:39:48 <Bike> i mean, you can't just drink chlorine ions
16:39:49 <hkt> no I'm not
16:40:08 <HackEgo> hkt: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:40:30 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah but at the same time the chlorine ions and sodium ions are kind of independent
16:40:32 <boily> hkt: what is your opinion on brainfuck derivatives?
16:40:43 <hkt> A bit boring in my opinion
16:40:50 <Bike> also: is may second lost to time
16:40:51 -!- glogbackup has joined.
16:40:59 <elliott> did gregor just bring in both glogbot and glogbackup
16:41:04 <elliott> i've never felt more watched
16:41:05 <Bike> we may never know what truly occured that day
16:41:06 <boily> ah! a real someone if flesh and blood and other structural elements!
16:41:13 <elliott> Bike: do you want to know about our secret older logs
16:41:19 <Bike> that's discriminatory boily
16:41:22 -!- Gregor has joined.
16:41:24 <elliott> Bike: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D bam
16:41:24 <Bike> elliott: !!!!!
16:41:40 <Bike> oh the actual glogbot logs
16:41:41 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest66566.
16:41:54 <hkt> I like low level languages though
16:41:55 <Bike> whatever too many fuckin bots.
16:42:03 <elliott> in fact glogbot's first N years of logging up to like... 2011? 2012? are just the clog logs
16:42:03 <Bike> ANYWAY: may 2's log starts with ME. good log
16:42:12 <boily> Bike: I mentioned structural elements. that includes mechanical apparatuses that occasionally accompany things made of liquids, such as human beings.
16:42:16 <elliott> s/glogbot/the codu log site/
16:42:45 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: He's still there
16:42:46 <boily> I don't care about pluralseses.
16:43:04 <FreeFull> Notch and Jeb tried to get rid of him, but it didn't work
16:43:24 <Phantom__Hoover> the secret: formula is already the plural, the singular is formulum
16:43:28 <Taneb> I think everyone who says "formulae" should be forced to decline it as though they were speaking latin
16:43:49 -!- Guest66566 has changed nick to Gregor.
16:43:51 <FreeFull> Taneb: It is easier to say than formulas
16:44:06 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
16:44:07 <Taneb> "I don't know the definition of these formularum!"
16:44:26 <Gregor> Bike: Oooooooooooooooh
16:45:03 <Taneb> And people who insist that formulae is correct when it's in the accusative...
16:46:07 <elliott> maybe formula is a mass noun
16:46:40 <Taneb> (I like "formulas", and latin)
16:47:23 <Gregor> Formuloodleoodleoodle-eeeeeeeee
16:48:00 * boily tries to grab his metasepia in order to apply percussive maintenance on Gregor, but can't seem to find it...
16:49:05 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: one of my Latin teachers also taught Andrew Mitchell
16:49:14 <Taneb> Of "plebgate" (ugh) fame
16:49:48 <NihilistDandy> I know nothing about that except that Google News is blowing up about the sale of his bike
16:49:51 <hkt> Taneb: where did you study latin?
16:50:20 <boily> NihilistDandy: hello, good afternoon or whatever timeframe you are in. I fear I don't have your approximate geographical coordinates and you body weigh with me. could you please provide these vital informations?
16:50:43 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: because it forces Watergategate
16:50:51 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w `-`
16:51:41 <Taneb> I am the author of the best esolang named after a mitchell and webb sketch
16:52:46 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: didn't coca cola do that a few years ago
16:52:57 <boily> Taneb: NihilistDandy is another hexamite?
16:53:14 <Taneb> And highly doubt it
16:53:17 <Taneb> I believe he's been around longer than I have
16:53:22 <Taneb> `pastelogs NihilistDandy
16:53:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20213
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16:54:39 <quintopia> is thelliot more likely to mean 'thanks elliott' or 'the hell, elliott?'
16:55:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14217
16:55:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21878
16:55:29 <boily> what the hell have I been doing with my life. 2006. I wasn't even in university by then!
16:56:23 <Taneb> I've been around longer than NihilistDandy
16:56:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:57:02 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: I already did that one
16:57:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9323
16:58:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2596
16:58:42 <boily> what is a sampa table, and how the fungot did I have one if I don't even know what it is.
16:58:42 <fungot> boily: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
16:59:10 <ThatOtherPerson> <oerjan> by some freak coincidence taneb is elliott's next door neighbor <-- is this true
16:59:12 <elliott> pr.sm.bly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet
16:59:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:59:18 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: we live in the same town of ~11k
16:59:29 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: it's not quite that extreme
16:59:38 <nooodl> "(as this set is naturally endowed with a structure of field, the expression field of the real numbers is more frequently used than set of all real numbers)." - wikipedia on real numbers
17:00:01 <Taneb> We live in the same small town, have the same interests, are within a year of eachother in age, and have NEVER EVER MET
17:00:40 <Taneb> quintopia: cheese toasties
17:01:26 <NihilistDandy> nooodl: Most people who care about the reals treat them as a field
17:01:37 <quintopia> i don't know what body of text cheese toasties is
17:01:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: elliott: Your mission is to meet, face to face, once by next Friday.
17:01:50 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: that will destroy the universe
17:02:21 <ThatOtherPerson> Maybe it won't. You'll never find out if you don't try. FOR SCIENCE.
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17:05:12 <AnotherTest> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/CppHeaderParser/ is this any good? (assuming I only what to get class and function names from a file)
17:06:02 <AnotherTest> I was thinking libclang first... but that turned out to be too good
17:08:15 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: are you writing #esoteric slash
17:08:42 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: nah
17:08:55 <Taneb> For a start I don't think there's such a thing as Hexham Parks
17:09:05 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=9109
17:09:32 <ThatOtherPerson> You live in that town and you don't know about the park there?
17:09:33 <NihilistDandy> And don't even pretend #esoteric-slash wouldn't become its own channel in a heartbeat
17:09:39 <Taneb> Those are four different parks
17:09:55 <Taneb> Which sort of touch
17:10:09 <Taneb> And I don't know where Cowgarth is
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17:54:00 <boily> faxes are evil. a memorandum is a thinner version of a clay tablet, with undecipherable glyphs. I don't want to appear in any #esoteric slashes unless I get to wear an orange shirt.
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18:23:07 * ThatOtherPerson whacks himself for forgetting to make a class inherit another class
18:24:59 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: send me a copy of some elliott/Phantom_Hoover at some point
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18:35:28 * boily dons his ritual gown, and does the phantasmal invocation dance
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18:40:25 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: despite my Canadian status, I am solid, therefore I'm no spectre, shadow, phantom or floating thing with a white drape on its head.
18:41:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18631
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18:41:41 <FireFly> that actually worked better than I thought it would
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19:00:06 * ThatOtherPerson wonders if he should make the number of people in his simulation something smaller than 6200000
19:00:39 <Gregor> Smaller? That's not even one one-thousandth of the human population!
19:02:05 * ThatOtherPerson checks to see what happens when he increases the number of people in his simulation to 78000000000
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19:17:52 <Bike> i hear those are complicated
19:21:09 <boily> “you have two simulated cows...”
19:21:26 <Jafet> Spherical cows, for simplicity
19:21:33 <kmc> make it 100% bitcoin based
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19:22:51 <Vorpal> what is a good vnc client that runs under X11?
19:23:40 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
19:25:35 <Bike> what if you set up a few bots that just mined bitcoins and traded the with each other in a fashion resembling large business transactions in the real world
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19:27:18 <olsner> Vorpal: I remember I found a good one once and wrote down the name somewhere as a note-to-self
19:27:29 <olsner> unfortunately, I don't know where the note is
19:27:36 <Vorpal> well vinagre seems to work
19:27:48 <Vorpal> though it looks kind of broken style-wise in xfce
19:28:03 <Bike> does that involve restarting your computer
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19:58:06 <AnotherTest> Why do you have to restart your computer to restart the simulation?
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19:58:54 <boily> AnotherTest: he simulates his simulation in the kernel boot process, probably.
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19:59:45 <ThatOtherPerson> I just had one of the variables so high that the computer froze whenever I ran it
20:00:47 <HackEgo> Yonkie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:01:52 <olsner> hmm, how did I end up here? I don't seem to remember
20:01:59 <AnotherTest> what about running the simulation on a remote server
20:02:20 <AnotherTest> or what about running it on another computer
20:02:31 <AnotherTest> or what about running it on your local supercomputer?
20:03:15 <ThatOtherPerson> I didn't really want there to be 78,000,000,000 people in the simulation; I just did that on a whim
20:03:25 <boily> I have a spare raspberry at home. think it can count as a local (very local) supercomputer?
20:03:44 <Bike> is a yonkie like a honky or what
20:03:49 <ThatOtherPerson> And then I accidentally ran it again without changing that variable
20:05:47 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:08:40 <kmc> this honky grandma be trippin'!
20:09:39 -!- heroux has joined.
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20:10:53 <Yonkie> or have phun, I always forgot how it's spelled correctly
20:11:55 <elliott> https://images.asc.ohio-state.edu/is/image/csuriproject/2/20308688-9db3-4380-bf1e-e02e83fd0180.tif/?size=450,450&fmt=png Art™
20:13:14 <Jafet> Putting the high in high art
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20:18:07 <Bike> control in the spleen? how greek
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20:33:49 <boily> weird. I have hoopl 3.9, which seems to not exist yet.
20:41:39 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: I know I asked a thousand times already but can I see your ludum dare entry?
20:42:44 <ThatOtherPerson> Koen_: It's got a bunch of bugs D: http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-26/?action=preview&uid=18411
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21:06:38 <Vorpal> kmc, just reading that http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.se/2011/11/self-modifying-code-for-debug-tracing.html (it was you who wrote that right?) "... but our code is terribly x86-specific anyway, so we'll hardcode the page size of 4096 bytes" <-- what about huge pages
21:06:55 <Vorpal> I seem to remember there being a kernel option that automatically tries to make use of hugepages
21:09:12 <olsner> automatically created hugepages should be split automatically as well
21:09:35 <boily> what is a huge page? 48’ × 36’?
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21:10:29 <Vorpal> boily, did you try google: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_(computer_memory)#Huge_pages
21:11:18 <boily> Vorpal: it's Friday late afternoon. my brain has went past the liquid state and deep into the pond-with-decorative-plants state.
21:11:28 <boily> Vorpal: nah. too logical.
21:13:12 <FireFly> Who measures pages in inches anyway?
21:13:41 <boily> uhm, us, and our southern neighbours.
21:14:02 <Vorpal> boily, that is a minority though
21:14:14 <olsner> hmm, wasn't that in feet though?
21:14:25 <boily> yeah. got mixed up with my keyboard shortcuts.
21:14:48 <boily> should have been ” instead of ’. still kinda huge for a page, even so.
21:15:22 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, transparent huge pages should get split automatically
21:15:36 <olsner> they wouldn't be very transparent otherwise
21:15:51 <kmc> when i mmap an explicit huge page mapping with MAP_HUGETLB and then mprotect() an offset within that, I do get EINVAL
21:16:06 <kmc> i presume the same thing would happen with hugetlbfs
21:16:31 <olsner> but those are very untransparent huge pages? (and what is "tlb" doing in those names?)
21:16:53 <olsner> a huge tlb sounds like something you would put lots of small pages in
21:17:04 <pikhq> Those are incredibly untransparent huge pages.
21:17:06 <Vorpal> oh funny, the read-write support for ubuntu live cds/live usb has a space leak.
21:17:35 <Vorpal> Each boot it will create a file in /tmp in the read-write partition image file, before mounting tmpfs on /tmp. It doesn't remove those files.
21:18:14 <Vorpal> actually a directory with a couple of files
21:18:45 <kmc> Linux seems to use the terms "TLB" and "page mapping" somewhat interchangeably
21:18:58 <pikhq> Isn't the TLB rather... different?
21:19:13 <Vorpal> TLB is the cache for page mappings
21:19:19 <pikhq> Like, I could've sworn the TLB was basically a cache for the page table.
21:20:37 <olsner> TLB is a pretty weird name for a cache too
21:20:59 <kmc> although on some architectures, the TLB is the only mapping recognized by the hardware
21:21:38 <kmc> with such a 'soft-fill TLB' any TLB miss is a trap to the OS
21:21:45 <olsner> did they invent the TLB before caches were a thing?
21:21:55 <kmc> and the OS can walk page tables stored in whatever format it likes
21:22:01 <kmc> olsner: I wouldn't be surprised. virtual memory is pretty old
21:22:46 <kmc> PPC i think has a weird compromise with a true TLB and a hash-table extended TLB that lives in main memory, but not an architecture-defined page table format
21:22:56 <kmc> also it has segmentation
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21:23:02 <kmc> but I don't know much about PPC systems programming
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21:28:21 <olsner> on VAX, a quarter of the virtual memory is "Reserved for Digital"
21:29:16 <olsner> if I make a computer I'm going to reserve a bunch of virtual memory for myself too
21:29:29 <kmc> on i386 Linux a quarter of the virtual memory is reserved for the Linux kernel
21:29:40 <kmc> and on x86_64 a full /half/ of the virtual memory!!
21:30:21 <olsner> kmc: note, on VAX that's not for the operating system, the operating system has a different quarter of virtual memory
21:30:25 <olsner> this one is just for digital
21:30:30 <kmc> what did they use it for
21:30:40 <Taneb> Digital, of course
21:30:43 <olsner> it's unused according to wikipedia
21:32:52 <kmc> what's the pointer size on VAX?
21:33:21 <kmc> even on machines with little physical memory, it would be useful to memory map large files
21:33:31 <pikhq> 32 bit it looks like.
21:33:32 <kmc> and to space out thread stacks, and stuff like that
21:34:08 <pikhq> This at a time when 4 gigs was a lot.
21:34:22 <kmc> i think memory mapped files would be more popular if not for people staying on 32 bit architectures forever
21:34:34 <kmc> which is a shame because they save a lot of work for the applications programmer
21:34:38 <pikhq> Yes. It's really quite convenient.
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21:35:13 <kmc> at least we have shared executables and libraries
21:35:16 <pikhq> Particularly for certain screwier file formats, like ZIP.
21:35:21 <Bike> i can't help that i have a shitty 32bit computer ok
21:35:40 <pikhq> (where you need to seek to the end of the file and start scanning for the footer header.)
21:35:50 <pikhq> Bike: How old is said computer?
21:36:07 <Bike> I think I got it in like 2009.
21:36:17 <Bike> Wait, no, later, more like 2011
21:36:23 <olsner> they still made 32-bit computers in 2009??
21:36:35 <kmc> Atom and ARM systems are still 32 bit
21:36:36 <pikhq> olsner: Technically they still make 486s today.
21:36:41 <Bike> it's an atom netbook.
21:36:57 <pikhq> kmc: *Most* Atom systems are 64-bit now.
21:37:01 <kmc> oh, really
21:37:05 <kmc> did not know
21:37:26 <pikhq> Though when he bought that, it was only a single model of Atom that was 64-bit, so fair enough.
21:37:44 <kmc> the convenience I was thinking of is mainly that you can map a huge file, and the OS will keep as much of it as possible in physical memory, with intelligent replacement algorithms, and this caching is shared between processes, without the app needing to do anything
21:37:55 <Bike> also i pretty much just bought the cheapest thing i could find.
21:39:19 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813186224
21:39:25 <elliott> more evidence that bikeologists = dum
21:40:00 <pikhq> That sucker is 64-bit.
21:40:00 <olsner> "Of the 512 million bytes which can be addressed, up to 2 million bytes may be connected"
21:40:13 <Bike> Yeah, because I need a real high powered computer to get insulted on IRC.
21:40:23 <kmc> rhymes that blister like mersenne twister
21:40:29 <pikhq> That's not exactly high powered.
21:40:39 <pikhq> That's a cheap Atom board.
21:41:57 <Bike> sarcasm is wrt elliott, who is a huge jerkface, unlike yourself
21:42:41 <elliott> Bike: i am the best jerkface though, imo
21:43:08 <shachaf> Bike: are you calling me a jerkface
21:43:18 <Bike> shachaf: imo iyo imo yes
21:43:53 <olsner> oh, elliott is making ys again
21:47:04 <kmc> elliott: congrats on your ys
21:47:15 <Taneb> Acronyms are a lossy compression format
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21:47:36 <kmc> eeeeeeeels
21:48:10 <elliott> kmc: it's going to sink (geddit)
21:50:12 <kmc> don't get it
21:51:48 -!- boily has quit (Quit: huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge paaaaaaaaaaaaaages).
21:52:20 <olsner> oh, neutrinos are written with ν, not v
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21:52:49 <elliott> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys, hth
21:53:01 <elliott> (i only know of it because of the album though, so my joke is morally bankrupt)
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21:53:32 <Bike> ys didn't sink, it was flooded
21:54:02 -!- Bike has left (":'(").
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21:55:10 <elliott> it's so great now that Bike isn't here any more, imo
21:56:02 <Bike> what a faux pas
21:57:07 <FreeFull> Do you propose people use whys instead of ys
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22:06:56 <Bike> Can I help you
22:07:48 <Bike> that's my name.
22:07:57 <elliott> are you suggesting that makes this make sense
22:08:07 <Bike> It could, if I make up enough shit.
22:08:14 <kmc> https://room208.org/wiki/ircbanned/characters/tzetze
22:09:16 <Bike> stalker desu ka
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22:12:35 <kmc> i hva the googles
22:13:05 <elliott> kmc's going to be "a shachaf" when he grows up
22:13:48 <kmc> it's an shachaf
22:13:58 <Bike> because shachaf stalker desuuuuuu
22:13:59 <elliott> hey i've done that like twice in my life
22:14:18 <elliott> imo, everyone has the right to the opportunity to say things that don't make sense at least twice
22:15:22 <ThatOtherPerson> I bopped my code on the bimble, but the bimble won't be bopped!
22:16:10 <olsner> no, you have to say something else
22:16:35 <shachaf> ThatOtherPerson: I am the baseline.
22:16:49 <shachaf> The centre of elliott's existence, more or less. He can't help it.
22:17:00 <elliott> truly, shachaf is the centre of all our existences.
22:17:16 <ThatOtherPerson> shachaf: does that mean that it's a good thing when elliott called me "a veritable shachaf"?
22:17:56 <Bike> Please watch the following video and report on its humor value: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVp2C8iVQvo
22:18:06 <kmc> also shachaf is younger than me…………
22:18:26 <elliott> kmc: uh if you believe the official story sure
22:18:28 <shachaf> im the center of elliott's existence like the devil is the center of christianity's existence??
22:18:46 <shachaf> i dont really know how christianity works
22:19:15 <elliott> Bike: this video is six minutes. no.
22:20:00 <nooodl> xtranormal videos are kinda unwatchable
22:20:19 <Bike> yeah i have no idea why anybody makes them
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22:31:29 <shachaf> Bike: i prefer to think of it as "rtfming" hth
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22:36:39 <Vorpal> a persistent /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules on a live usb distro has some interesting results. I got eth14 on this thing... (For the single ethernet adapter in *this* computer)
22:37:14 <kmc> yeah my friend had this bug where the number would increment every time he rebooted
22:37:29 <Vorpal> well it doesn't do that here, just when I use it in new computers
22:37:40 <Vorpal> how did the increment each reboot thing happen though?
22:38:05 <kmc> i don't know
22:39:25 <shachaf> I,I /etc/udev/rules.d/71-persistent-ned.rules
22:39:29 <kmc> it could have even been a hardware bug which reset the mac address
22:39:35 <kmc> but probably not
22:39:53 <Vorpal> kmc, the 70-persistent-cd.rules file is kind of silly too
22:40:54 <Vorpal> kmc, Only up to 13 there, think I used this live usb distro in a computer without a CD in the past.
22:41:29 <kmc> oh, i didn't know about persistent-cd
22:41:47 <kmc> what about hard drives? i guess you're supposed to use /dev/disk/by-uuid for that
22:41:50 <Vorpal> yeah it means that if you have multiple cd drives they will get the same name each time
22:42:18 <Vorpal> kmc, mhm. Have fun making that work
22:42:26 <Vorpal> at least if you are doing anything interesting
22:43:00 <Vorpal> (hd2)/dev/disk/by-id/ata-WDC_WD10EUCX-73YZ1Y0_WD-WCC0S0708059
22:43:00 <Vorpal> (hd0)/dev/disk/by-id/ata-Hitachi_HDS721010CLA332_JP2930HQ13BPKH
22:43:00 <Vorpal> (hd1)/dev/disk/by-id/ata-Hitachi_HDS721010CLA332_JP2930HQ13HAEH
22:43:00 <Vorpal> (hd3)/dev/disk/by-id/ata-Corsair_CSSD-F60GB2-A_11106513330004620012
22:43:28 <Vorpal> kmc, see the order there from device.map? The auto-detected grub disk ids were in order of the lines
22:43:34 <Vorpal> yeah, that didn't exactly work did it
22:43:51 <Vorpal> it is in order of Linux sda,sdb,...
22:44:03 -!- hr_ has joined.
22:44:13 <Vorpal> which is as seen very different from the actual grub disk order
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22:52:40 <kmc> hi shachaf
22:52:55 <kmc> did you know that Oakland has been rated as the country's #1 "most exciting" city http://www.movoto.com/blog/top-ten/10-most-exciting-cities/
22:53:47 <kmc> well I saw an article about how the media have trouble covering crime in Oakland because while they're out on the street talking about crime, criminals will come up and steal their cameras and equipment
22:55:11 <shachaf> um but there's an accordion store in oakland
22:55:26 <Bike> a store specifically for accordions?
22:55:33 <kmc> also it's lacking fast food restaurants which is good because "a McDonald’s on every corner is about as exciting as a shot of warm milk before bed"
22:55:38 <Bike> "Source: Wikipedia."
22:55:40 <kmc> i bet a Whole Foods on every corner is fine though
22:55:43 <kmc> fucking bougie scum
22:55:49 <HackEgo> 42) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
22:55:52 <Bike> what's a bougie
22:56:02 <HackEgo> 48) <Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously.
22:56:15 <shachaf> Gregor: How many bass buttons do I need, again?
22:57:16 <shachaf> maybe kmc should move to oakland
22:57:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21447
22:58:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
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23:40:02 <kmc> https://twitter.com/googuns_staging 21st century equivalent of a numbers station
23:40:50 <pikhq> Hmm. The ending pattern there makes me curious.
23:41:10 <elliott> kmc: imo your googuns are insufficiently staged
23:41:13 <Bike> from Indonesia <-- what could it mean
23:41:29 <kmc> if the last 3 bytes are ever non-zero it means 24h until total nuclear war
23:41:38 <pikhq> Yeah, that's definitely number station-esque.
23:41:53 <kmc> i like the odd locations settings
23:42:09 <Bike> " from Mount Waddington, British Columbia" ?????
23:42:12 <kmc> it's probably a botnet C&C but who knows
23:42:18 <elliott> i don't think the locations are accurate.
23:42:19 <kmc> from Svalbard, Svalbard og Jan Mayen
23:42:22 <elliott> probably it's stuffing more information in thee.
23:42:27 <Bike> indonesia's nuclear control botnet
23:42:41 <Bike> wow they're at five minute intervals. nice.
23:42:43 <elliott> like i just clicked one of them
23:42:49 <elliott> and it's in the middle of the ocean
23:43:02 <Bike> soeone should do an exhaustive study of the low end of twitter and find the interesting ones for me
23:43:20 <Bike> oh, you're right. noone actually lives in Sakha.
23:44:04 <kmc> mplayer http://ia700500.us.archive.org/12/items/ird059/tcp_d1_01_the_swedish_rhapsody_irdial.mp3
23:44:37 <pikhq> kmc: Even as a botnet thing, it's definitely a modern number station.
23:44:42 <pikhq> I love those things.
23:44:45 <kmc> in college we had big speakers out on the balcony and would blast numbers stations recordings at 2 AM
23:45:24 <kmc> our neighbors were rich fuckers who had the misfortune to live near a university
23:45:31 <pikhq> Friend of mine was a college radio DJ. She went and aired number station recordings for a couple of her turns on the station.
23:45:40 <kmc> we also shot fireworks at them... there was definitely a policy of deliberate antagonism
23:45:44 <kmc> pikhq: nice
23:46:16 <elliott> imo number stations = aliens
23:46:30 <pikhq> IMO elliott = alien
23:46:49 <pikhq> Hawai'i isn't alien, it's exotic.
23:47:18 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_6Kp7q5tbA
23:48:16 <kmc> hmm there is some structure here
23:48:55 <pikhq> Yeah. But then, number stations usually do.
23:49:04 <kmc> http://www.theawl.com/2013/03/spy-twitter-is-weird-twitte
23:49:14 <pikhq> They're generally not *encrypted*, they merely have so little context that inferring the meaning is nontrivial.
23:49:30 <kmc> i thought they were generally encrypted with one-time pads
23:50:06 <pikhq> Depends on the length of the message.
23:50:16 <Bike> "Still, I prefer things to be weirder, so I kept looking for the portal to this alleged Weird Twitter and finally realized it was mostly stuff I already followed" i know that feel
23:50:45 <pikhq> The one I know was used for people escaping East Germany (this has been documented) more just gave numbers with a specified meaning out to certain individuals.
23:50:59 <olsner> how do you know so much about number stations/aliens? are you an alien?
23:51:12 <pikhq> That is, not really *encrypted*, but there's only so much you can get from so little information.
23:51:56 <Bike> http://s22.theawl.com/awl/up/2013/03/cia-twitter-2.jpg ok this. this is fantastic
23:52:23 <Bike> ahaha quoting nephi
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23:57:31 <Sgeo> AngularJS is pretty cool
23:57:42 <pikhq> What about it is cool?
23:57:44 <Sgeo> But still not as cool as continuations... I know these are orthogonal
23:58:04 <Sgeo> Page just matches Javascript object
23:58:34 <Sgeo> Incl. promises
00:00:39 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:02:41 <olsner> speaking of number stations, http://akas.imdb.com/title/tt1659338/
00:03:05 <Bike> damn i was hoping for a film produced for intelligence purposes
00:03:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
00:03:44 <olsner> the trailer implies that number station has a person reading numbers for three days off of a fancy computer screen
00:04:18 <olsner> rather than one of the rather more convenient-looking automatic contraptions you can get from spending 5 minutes on wikipedia
00:05:31 <pikhq> olsner: Some number stations are some guy reading numbers off a screen though.
00:15:22 <Sgeo> What's a number station?
00:15:58 <Bike> A radio station that broadcasts data probably for intelligence agencies, in the form of a voice reading out numbers.
00:16:38 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station
00:17:31 <Sgeo> If my computer weren't too crappy to click links, I'd click.
00:17:53 <Sgeo> As it is, I'm getting significant lag between typing letters and seeing the letters on my screen
00:18:02 <Sgeo> And my IRC client is on my local machine
00:18:34 -!- hr_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:19:35 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
00:21:11 <mnoqy> omg i love number stations
00:22:36 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:22:41 <kmc> in conclusion I give numbers stations 3.5 out of 5 stars
00:23:06 <kmc> i hear that numbers station film is p. bad
00:23:24 <elliott> star-based rating is for losers, imo
00:23:40 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
00:24:14 <mnoqy> (out of five thumbs)
00:24:18 <Bike> 3.5 thumbs out of five *displays jar*
00:24:31 <elliott> mnoqy: this is reminding me of your thumbs comic do you remember it
00:24:54 <Bike> http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=113067&reviews_id=89327 five out of five stars!
00:25:02 <elliott> in the far future we will decode copumpkin's numbers and they will say "eliot stinks"
00:25:13 <mnoqy> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/misc-finished/diner.png
00:25:55 <pikhq> Bike: elliott's estranged brother.
00:26:03 <elliott> copumpkin: misusing whom is possibly the best thing
00:26:09 <copumpkin> it'd be funny if parents named all their children variations on that name
00:26:12 <elliott> I don't know whom on earth could have a problem with it
00:26:16 <kmc> EIGHT SIX SEVEN THREE NINE
00:26:18 <kmc> EIGHT SIX SEVEN THREE NINE
00:26:27 <kmc> ♫ merry go round tune ♫
00:26:28 <Bike> you forgot the 5 and 0
00:26:32 <copumpkin> in italian there's a saying about spitting out numbers
00:26:37 <elliott> copumpkin: peano's younger brother was called peanso
00:26:43 <elliott> then peansso, peanssso, ...
00:26:44 <kmc> elliott: groan
00:26:55 <kmc> Phantom___Hoover: are you telling me the ice cream vans are run by the CIA
00:26:57 <kmc> shiiiiiiiiiiit
00:27:00 <copumpkin> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=106131
00:27:14 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: i think the fact that the number station tunes are so reminiscent of that is what makes them so creepy
00:27:19 <kmc> Phantom___Hoover: yes
00:27:23 <kmc> in glasgow
00:27:58 <Bike> copumpkin: suck it math nerds
00:28:00 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: and then it's glasgow?
00:28:35 <Phantom___Hoover> "The conflicts, in which vendors raided one another's vans and fired shotguns into one another's windscreens, were more violent than might typically be expected between ice-cream salesmen." oh wikipedia
00:29:10 <elliott> wow Bike, you're hurting copumpkin's feelings.
00:30:02 <Phantom___Hoover> elliott, i was thinking a while ago how weird it would be if you had a really classy numbers station
00:30:32 <Phantom___Hoover> the tune is played by an orchestra, the numbers are read with powerful emotion, that sort of thing
00:31:10 <elliott> numbers read out like a bingo announcer
00:31:18 <elliott> i'm laughing at my own concept
00:33:42 <pikhq> Get it official, advertise radio bingo.
00:34:13 <pikhq> For the old lady gamblers that can't get out of the home.
00:34:31 <pikhq> Of course, use the bingo numbers for your number station.
00:34:50 <Bike> old lady gamblers in the abhwehr
00:36:58 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: ICE CREAM LAND).
00:41:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:49:27 <kmc> it was a huge mistake to join that web startup
00:49:36 <kmc> i feel like a total failure even though it was never something I really wanted to be doing in the first place
00:49:57 <kmc> i need to learn how to say 'no' to people
01:03:03 <Sgeo> Blargh, Factor's JSON library uses 91 write1 and 93 write1 rather than having the source actually, say, mention [ and ] as such
01:03:07 <Sgeo> So much for readability?
01:03:27 <Bike> f u, readability.
01:04:36 <Sgeo> Then again, it's Factor, is Factor meant to be readable? I guess it's usually more readable than J, unless you happen to not recognize a word
01:05:19 <Sgeo> Mentioned that in another channel, someone said that tooling makes that situation less painful
01:09:20 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
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01:14:02 <Sgeo> There's something... sublime about this line of code
01:14:17 <Sgeo> [ ] [ queue>> ] [ timeout ] tri mailbox-get-timeout
01:15:54 * kmc smokes two joints
01:16:25 <kmc> what's it do (also how (also why))
01:17:08 <Sgeo> Passes an object, the queue stored in an object, and .. the result of calling timeout on the object, to mailbox-get-timeout
01:17:11 <Bike> factor's site is down so i can't check docs. Cool
01:20:19 <Bike> in the afternoon.
01:20:30 <kmc> shachaf: ő_ő
01:20:50 <Bike> does that emoticon indicate two joints for each eye
01:21:47 <shachaf> but is the left eye disjoint from the right eye
01:22:09 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:24:16 <Bike> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/606955481/the-gym-0
01:28:41 <Sgeo> I just paid for something I really don't care about: Reddit Gold
01:28:48 <Sgeo> Well, I've wanted to try it, but not particularly badly
01:30:14 <Bike> is that a bitcoin ghint
01:31:28 <Sgeo> I just want to see /r/lobby
01:32:23 <Sgeo> Subreddit for Reddit Gold people
01:32:39 <Bike> so you got reddit gold so that you could use a reddit for people with reddit gold
01:32:42 <Bike> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Heartland.png get high
01:32:49 <kmc> Bike: don't worry they're all there because of their own merits
01:33:02 <kmc> Bike: what
01:33:12 <Bike> The Heartland lay at the centre of the world island, stretching from the Volga to the Yangtze and from the Himalayas to the Arctic. Mackinder's Heartland was the area then ruled by the Russian Empire and after that by the Soviet Union, minus the Kamchatka Peninsula region.
01:33:25 <kmc> i repeat: what
01:35:36 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/d9d627e659cb57a8d56a49cc5e4acc87/tumblr_mm8r95MlVO1qb4dbmo1_1280.jpg anyway
01:37:54 <kmc> PLT_SeinfeldToday_ebooks
01:38:33 <Bike> surely his works on evolution would naturally counter the arguments of God?
01:39:34 <zzo38> Maybe it depend of what arguments.
01:40:21 <Sgeo> Should I assume that zizek_ebooks isn't a real person?
01:41:23 <kmc> should i assume that you aren't a real person
01:41:58 <Sgeo> I assume anyone matching the glob *_ebooks is not a real person
01:42:06 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_ebooks.
01:42:45 <elliott> zizek_ebooks is literally zizek's ebook, serialised in twitter form, imo
01:47:04 <shachaf> kmc: how was your junction
01:47:16 <shachaf> (a junction is made of two joints. get it??)
01:48:39 <Sgeo_ebooks> 'Now that I have reddit gold, where is this Golden Shower i've been hearing about....'
01:50:53 <nooodl_> what is the reddit gold subreddit like Sgeo_ebooks
01:50:58 <nooodl_> i've always wanted to know
01:51:11 <nooodl_> like what are the posts even about??
01:51:47 <Sgeo_ebooks> "If we exempted goldmembers from anti-spam measures, spammers would just sign up and unleash a torrent of spam. They might even demand their money back when we finally stopped them, and in our experience, they'll end up getting it despite our protests."
01:52:24 <elliott> something something capitalism something something downfall of humanity something something sgeo
01:52:42 <kmc> shachaf: it was lie :'(
01:52:51 <kmc> Sgeo_ebooks: ...
01:53:06 <shachaf> kmc: and why did you stop the lie
01:53:09 * kmc wonders if Sgeo knows what a golden shower is
01:54:07 <Sgeo_ebooks> 'Why yes, I did get gold for a recommendation in r/headphones.' (A link to http://cdn.head-fi.org/e/ea/1000x500px-LL-ead4edf4_gold.jpg )
01:54:17 <Sgeo_ebooks> kmc, yes, and I assume the person who posted that does too
01:54:35 <elliott> are you violating the terms of service by posting this stuff in a public channel!!!
01:54:52 <kmc> Sgeo is a Maker and the rest of us are Takers
01:55:16 <shachaf> wow Sgeo elliott maked a good point
01:55:58 <shachaf> are you the scum of the earth aka tos violator
01:56:32 -!- madbr has joined.
01:56:41 <madbr> any of you guys interested in cpu design?
01:56:47 <Sgeo_ebooks> I ... don't know what Reddit policy is about sharing stuff from private subreddits
01:56:52 <zzo38> madbr: I have some interest.
01:56:54 <Bike> How Zizekian are these CPUs?
01:56:56 <kmc> madbr: yeah, i don't know much though
01:57:04 <Sgeo_ebooks> There's a text post reminding people about mother's day since some may have ads disabled
01:57:07 <kmc> is Sgeo going to federal prison for violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act?
01:57:54 <Bike> of or relating to zizek, a slovenian philosopher.
01:58:52 <shachaf> kmc: i was at maru ichi today!!
01:58:59 <madbr> kmc: I know enough to know that
01:59:05 <Sgeo_ebooks> Someone was banned from /r/lounge for being annoying
01:59:08 <madbr> memory loads are evil
01:59:13 <madbr> memory stores are evil
01:59:26 <Sgeo_ebooks> Posting political stuff, a lot got on the front page
01:59:37 <shachaf> madbr: without memory stores where would you buy memory..............
01:59:38 <madbr> ALU instructions are the best instructions
01:59:51 <Bike> so, madbr's computer is the Z3
02:01:14 <zzo38> On esolang wiki there is something called "Checkout", which does memory differently, and is meant for GPU programming
02:03:11 <madbr> usually that kind of GPU stuff isn't very good at instruction-to-instruction feedback
02:06:18 <madbr> instructions per cycle count has been limited at 4 for so long that it's not funny
02:06:44 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:07:10 <madbr> (more than 4 on some RISCs but I dunno if those are actually any faster than x86, which does have this limit afaik)
02:08:07 -!- augur has joined.
02:10:30 <madbr> and limits on numbers of ports mean that we're not likely to get much higher than that
02:13:58 <madbr> yeah, x86 is limited by... its registers
02:16:54 <madbr> like, not the registers themselves
02:17:08 <madbr> but the wires that go into and out of the registers to read and write values
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02:30:56 <madbr> woa, the p2 can handle 4 different cache misses at the same time
02:31:03 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:31:06 <madbr> that's... both fascinating and horrifying
02:33:09 -!- Fiora has joined.
02:33:45 <Bike> is that weird?
02:40:08 -!- Sgeo_ebooks has changed nick to Sgeo.
02:40:19 <Sgeo> Cybertown once had a promotional thing for Pentium 3 owners
02:40:30 <Sgeo> I have no idea how they actually checked if you had a P3
02:40:47 <Sgeo> You got 'Homebuilder' homes that you could customize
02:41:21 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III#Controversy_about_privacy_issues
02:41:39 <kmc> "The Pentium III was the first x86 CPU to include a unique, retrievable, identification number, called PSN (Processor Serial Number). A Pentium III's PSN can be read by software through the CPUID instruction"
02:41:52 <Bike> but can you do it through javascript
02:41:57 <kmc> i sort of wonder if we would have the same outcry 10 years later
02:42:09 <Sgeo> http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/worldbuildersguild/message/4380?o=1&d=-1
02:42:10 <kmc> privacy is so 90's
02:43:14 <Sgeo> Well, Cybertown 3d users had to install a plugin, but the plugin wasn't controlled by Cybertown, and I don't think general Cybertown usage required 3d
02:43:22 <Sgeo> Although maybe for that particular thing?
02:43:24 <Bike> losing privacy to get me better book recs is just so convenient!
02:43:48 <Sgeo> I don't know, according to that post it was opened to everyone sometime before or shortly after I became a CT resident
02:44:07 <Sgeo> (And yes, there's an option not included: 'long after I became a CT resident')
02:44:20 * Fiora heard something about cpu something
02:44:24 <Bike> sgeo just how many of these online cyber doofus things have you been in
02:44:43 <Sgeo> That I've stayed in or just visited?
02:46:20 -!- mnoqy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:47:34 <Sgeo> Cybertown, Worlds.com, Active Worlds, Adobe Atmosphere, there's one whose name I flat out cannot recall I can't find any hint of it anywhere I miss it, Metaplace, There.com, iCity, IMVU (probably the only one I really dislike), Virtual Planet, an older AW clone, a few other AW universes including one pirated one
02:47:41 <Sgeo> I think there's a lot I'm forgetting
02:47:51 <Sgeo> Does Metaplace count? It's not 3d
02:48:25 <Sgeo> Muse, although that one was dead by the time I got there
02:48:42 <Sgeo> I remember wanting OSMP to do real well
02:48:46 <Sgeo> I think that's dead now
02:48:58 -!- Bike_ has joined.
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02:49:22 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, are you referring to my nostalgic tendencies, or have you been there?
02:49:47 <Sgeo> s/Virtual Planet/Virtual Paradise/. And add Virtual Planets to the list
02:50:31 <Sgeo> Oh, you're referring to how many are AW related I guess
02:50:42 <Sgeo> Virtual Paradise is also an AW clone
02:51:04 <Sgeo> Hmm. There was one called Flatland, I think I found AW because of it, and I found it because of the book
02:51:07 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, awesome
02:51:11 <Sgeo> You know it still exists, right?
02:51:25 <Sgeo> Were you ever a cit?
02:51:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:51:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:52:07 <Lumpio-> Oh yeah, I checked it out a couple of years ago. Trolled everybody with my small fat midged avatar. Customizations yay
02:52:22 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:52:27 <kmc> `run gccrun 'int name[12],i;for(i=0;i<3;i++){asm("cpuid":"=a"(name[4*i]),"=b"(name[4*i+1]),"=c"(name[4*i+2]),"=d"(name[4*i+3]):"a"(0x80000002+i));}puts((char*)name);'
02:52:36 <HackEgo> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 6128
02:52:59 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, customizability of avs is rather new to AW
02:53:16 -!- mnoqy has joined.
02:53:18 <Lumpio-> It sure wasn't possible back in $ages_ago
02:54:34 <Sgeo> I joined shortly before it locked out tourists for a few months
02:54:54 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
02:57:08 <Fiora> kmc: that's really cool
02:57:15 <Fiora> it's like, an IRC command that makes the bot print its CPUID
02:57:40 <kmc> yeah i just read about this feature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID#EAX.3D80000002h.2C80000003h.2C80000004h:_Processor_Brand_String
02:57:51 <Fiora> there's a ton of fun things in there, I think
02:58:06 <Fiora> I remember looking at the amd cpuid specification manual, it's like hundreds of pages long
02:58:18 <Bike> for... one instruction?
02:58:29 <kmc> probably some undocumented features in there :)
02:58:46 <Fiora> Bike: it's basically a generic "look up info about the cpu" instruction where the arguments are registers
02:58:56 <Fiora> I mean like, performance counters are probably hundreds of pages too
02:58:59 <Fiora> probably even worse <_>
02:59:14 <kmc> yeah I should learn how to use those sometime
02:59:34 <kmc> i mean I've run 'perf' but I want to learn how it works at the instruction set level
02:59:39 <Fiora> yeah I have no idea
02:59:45 <kmc> they're privileged instructions I think
02:59:51 <Fiora> I think it's kernel drivers using those cpu "model-specific register" things
02:59:54 <kmc> i could add performance counters to JOS
03:00:00 <Fiora> it's probably completely insane
03:00:25 <kmc> it's cool that Intel / AMD even have a systems programming manual
03:00:29 <kmc> instead of just telling Microsoft ;P
03:00:29 <Sgeo> Like restarting a machine?
03:00:44 <kmc> i think restarting is more of a platform thing than a CPU thing
03:00:53 <kmc> maybe either / both
03:00:56 <Sgeo> iirc something about triple-faulting
03:01:06 <kmc> yeah that is one way to reset the processor
03:01:11 <kmc> but it won't cleanly reset all of the other hardware
03:01:22 <kmc> which is why it was used as a quick way for the 286 to get back into real mode
03:02:03 <Fiora> `run gccrun 'int a,b,c,d;asm("cpuid":"=a"(a),"=b"(b),"=c"(c),"=d"(d):"a"(0x80000001));}int family=((a>>8)&0xf) + ((a>>20)&0xff);int model=((a>>4)&0xf) + ((a>>12)&0xf0);printf("f:%d m:%d",family,model);'
03:02:07 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.5aE0wjoY/command.c:19: error: ‘a’ undeclared here (not in a function) \ /tmp/gccrun.5aE0wjoY/command.c:19: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant \ /tmp/gccrun.5aE0wjoY/command.c:19: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before ‘family’ \ /tmp/gccrun.5aE0wjoY/command.c:19: err
03:02:44 <zzo38> I have written a CPUID program similar to that once, in assembly language though, using the DOS DEBUG program.
03:02:51 <Fiora> `run gccrun 'int a,b,c,d;asm("cpuid":"=a"(a),"=b"(b),"=c"(c),"=d"(d):"a"(0x80000001));int family=((a>>8)&0xf) + ((a>>20)&0xff);int model=((a>>4)&0xf) + ((a>>12)&0xf0);printf("f:%d m:%d",family,model);'
03:03:11 <Bike> Family Sixteen sounds like a cultist compound thing
03:05:17 <Sgeo> SYNTAX: SYNTAX: scan-new-word parse-definition define-syntax ;
03:10:46 <Fiora> `run gccrun 'int a,b,c,d;asm("cpuid":"=a"(a),"=b"(b),"=c"(c),"=d"(d):"a"(1));if(edx&0x00800000)puts("MMX ");if(edx&0x02000000)puts("SSE ");if(edx&0x04000000)puts("SSE2 ");if(ecx&0x00000001)puts("SSE3 ");if(ecx&0x00000200)puts("SSSE3 ");if(ecx&0x10000000)puts("AVX ");
03:10:47 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:11:22 <Bike> hypothesis: bash is impossible
03:11:22 <Fiora> `run gccrun 'int a,b,c,d;asm("cpuid":"=a"(a),"=b"(b),"=c"(c),"=d"(d):"a"(1));if(d&0x00800000) puts("MMX ");if(d&0x02000000) puts("SSE ");if(d&0x04000000) puts("SSE2 ");if(c&0x00000001) puts("SSE3 ");if(c&0x00000200) puts("SSSE3 ");if(c&0x10000000) puts("AVX ");
03:11:24 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:11:31 <Bike> you forgot the closing '
03:11:36 <Bike> `run gccrun 'int a,b,c,d;asm("cpuid":"=a"(a),"=b"(b),"=c"(c),"=d"(d):"a"(1));if(d&0x00800000) puts("MMX ");if(d&0x02000000) puts("SSE ");if(d&0x04000000) puts("SSE2 ");if(c&0x00000001) puts("SSE3 ");if(c&0x00000200) puts("SSSE3 ");if(c&0x10000000) puts("AVX ");'
03:12:22 <Bike> no avx for youuuuu
03:13:54 <shachaf> `gccrun int main[]={0xa20fc031,0xb8535251,0x00000004,0x8943db31,0x000cbae1,0x80cd0000,0xcd40c031,0x80};
03:14:14 <shachaf> help how do i do miuaf programs
03:14:28 <shachaf> `run gccrun 'const int main[]={0xa20fc031,0xb8535251,0x00000004,0x8943db31,0x000cbae1,0x80cd0000,0xcd40c031,0x80};'
03:15:15 <shachaf> `run echo 'const int main[]={0xa20fc031,0xb8535251,0x00000004,0x8943db31,0x000cbae1,0x80cd0000,0xcd40c031,0x80};' > blah.c; gcc -o blah blah.c; ./blah; rm -f blah blah.c
03:15:19 <HackEgo> bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./blah
03:15:37 <shachaf> is that even a 32 bit machine
03:15:42 <shachaf> `run echo 'const int main[]={0xa20fc031,0xb8535251,0x00000004,0x8943db31,0x000cbae1,0x80cd0000,0xcd40c031,0x80};' > blah.c; gcc -m32 -o blah blah.c; ./blah; rm -f blah blah.c
03:15:46 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc \ /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc \ /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status \ bash: ./blah: No such file or directory
03:15:56 <shachaf> I thought HackEgo was 32-bit!
03:15:57 <Bike> Fiora: quick, cpuid magic to see how big pointers are!
03:16:12 <kmc> `gccrun printf("%u\n",sizeof(void*));
03:16:30 <shachaf> that has a bunch of extra bits
03:16:39 <kmc> `run grep 'address size' /proc/cpuinfo
03:16:49 <kmc> `cat /proc/cpuinfo
03:16:50 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id: User Mode Linux \ model name: UML \ mode: skas \ host: Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Mar 8 00:01:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 \ bogomips: 1810.43
03:16:58 <kmc> `paste /proc/cpuinfo
03:17:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//proc/cpuinfo
03:17:07 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
03:17:09 <kmc> `paste < /proc/cpuinfo
03:17:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/%3C%20/proc/cpuinfo
03:17:17 <shachaf> You can't pushl %ecx on amd64?
03:17:23 <kmc> `run paste < /proc/cpuinfo
03:17:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27444
03:17:31 * kmc has been to this dance before
03:17:58 <Bike> kind of a shitty dance tbh
03:19:09 <Sgeo> Can I at least be happy at never having to touch a line of PHP at work?
03:19:21 <Bike> no, ,sgeo, you're not allowed to be happy.
03:21:43 <Fiora> Bike: I have no idea if that's in cpuid... I guess it might be
03:22:21 <Bike> maybe you should consult your ten thousand page manual.
03:23:42 <Fiora> `run gccrun 'int a,b,c,d;asm("cpuid":"=a"(a),"=b"(b),"=c"(c),"=d"(d):"a"(0x80000008));printf("physical address bits: %d",a&0xff);'
03:23:57 <Bike> ok i... thought that was a joke.
03:24:03 <Bike> you win this round, amd
03:24:18 <Bike> `run file $(which gccrun)
03:24:19 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/gccrun: POSIX shell script text executable
03:24:25 <HackEgo> cat: gccrun: No such file or directory
03:24:30 <Bike> `cat bin/gccrun
03:24:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \ if [ "$#" = 0 ]; then \ echo "usage: $0 [-w wrapper] <C code...>" >&2 \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ if [ "$1" = -w ]; then \ wrapper="$2" \ shift 2 \ fi \ \ f=$(mktemp -d -t gccrun.XXXXXXXX) || exit 1 \ cat > "$f/command.c" << EOF \ #define _GNU_SOURCE \ #include <sys/types.h> \ #include <sys/stat.h> \ #include <sys/mman.h>
03:26:51 <Bike> oh, so it's 48 on _64 and 32 on _32
03:27:19 <shachaf> `gccrun const main[] = {0xa20fc031, 0xf4245c89, 0xf8245489, 0xfc244c89, 0x1c0c748, 0x31000000, 0x48c7ffff, 0xf424748d, 0xcc2c748, 0xf000000, 0xc0c74805, 0x3c, 0x050f};
03:27:41 <shachaf> `run echo 'const main[] = {0xa20fc031, 0xf4245c89, 0xf8245489, 0xfc244c89, 0x1c0c748, 0x31000000, 0x48c7ffff, 0xf424748d, 0xcc2c748, 0xf000000, 0xc0c74805, 0x3c, 0x050f};' > blah.c; gcc -o blah blah.c; ./blah; rm -f blah blah.c
03:28:46 <kmc> CyrixInstead
03:29:15 <Fiora> Bike: CPUID Fn8000_0008_EAX Long Mode Address Size Identifiers
03:29:33 <Fiora> This function returns information about the maximum physical and linear address width (in bits) supported by
03:29:36 <Fiora> the processor. The width reported is the maximum supported in any mode.
03:29:42 <Fiora> (yes I pulled up the manual okay XD)
03:29:52 <shachaf> was it the intel manual or the amd manual
03:31:25 <Bike> you know i'm a bit disappointed that i don't see the 'main is usually a function' warnings
03:33:21 <Fiora> Bike: does it do that with -Wall?
03:33:43 <Fiora> `run echo 'const main[] = {0xa20fc031, 0xf4245c89, 0xf8245489,0xfc244c89, 0x1c0c748, 0x31000000, 0x48c7ffff, 0xf424748d,0xcc2c748, 0xf000000, 0xc0c74805, 0x3c, 0x050f};' > blah.c;gcc -Wall -o blah blah.c; ./blah; rm -f blah blah.c
03:33:45 <HackEgo> blah.c:1: warning: type defaults to ‘int’ in declaration of ‘main’ \ blah.c:1: warning: ‘main’ is usually a function \ AuthenticAMD
03:34:12 <kmc> free advertising
03:34:20 <Bike> congratulations kmc you've made it into the gcc trunk!
03:34:22 <Bike> "the big time"
03:34:59 <Sgeo> When is main not a function in C?
03:35:28 <Sgeo> Um, I guess if you make main be a pointer to machine code, which I guess is what Fiora's doing
03:35:36 <Sgeo> Well, array, apparently there's a difference?
03:35:45 <kmc> yeah, many differences between arrays and pointers
03:35:57 <Fiora> that was shachaf's
03:36:04 <shachaf> http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/array-pointer.html
03:36:24 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/the_ksplice_pointer_challenge
03:37:05 <kmc> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html has some historical insight
03:37:11 <kmc> and is generally a v. interesting read
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03:38:06 <shachaf> Why doesn't amd64 support push %ecx?
03:38:51 <Fiora> um, I think it should?
03:38:53 <kmc> was the encoding re-used for smoething else?
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03:39:25 <Fiora> oh... I guess it doesn't.
03:39:26 <kmc> oh, it's re-used for push %rcx
03:39:43 <Fiora> yeah, there's no "REX + PUSH" for 32-bit push on 64-bit
03:39:47 <Fiora> huh, I had no idea
03:39:56 <Fiora> I guess I had never had any reason to do it XD
03:40:37 <Sgeo> any other use - implicit pointer conversion
03:40:37 <Sgeo> Any other use of an array results in a pointer to the first array element (the array "decays" to a pointer).
03:40:45 <Sgeo> That.. makes it all make sense
03:40:54 <zzo38> Do you know some thing about Z-machine?
03:41:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I know a few things.
03:41:28 <shachaf> Hmm, no, I don't know anything useful about Z-machine anymore.
03:41:41 <Bike> what's the difference between "a pointer to the entire array" and "a pointer to the first element"
03:44:25 <shachaf> Bike: Did you see that mauke page?
03:44:26 <Bike> so if there's char[] a, &a is a char[]* and a in "any other context" as defined is a char*?
03:44:32 <Bike> i'm looking at the mauke page
03:45:05 <shachaf> "char[] a" is a syntax error.
03:45:15 <kmc> uh, I think a and &a are indistinguishable, i was comparing a to &a[0]
03:45:22 <kmc> i could have it all wrong tho :/
03:45:36 <Bike> it says &a is a pointer to the entire array, but the decaded array is a pointer to the first element.
03:46:40 <kmc> they're making a Jurassic Park 4??
03:48:45 <shachaf> Why is cpuid suddenly not working?
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03:52:38 <Bike> "Arrays by themselves are nearly useless in C" well alright.
03:53:50 <shachaf> "Bikes by themselves are nearly useless in IRC"
03:55:28 <Bike> Shouldn't it be the other way, since it's an eye?
03:56:15 <Bike> I'm ok with that.
03:56:28 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/ff67367a6dd1d74e55c8a0e1b1432b75/tumblr_mliya4L9ty1rsblalo1_500.png
03:58:02 <shachaf> kmc: What's going on with const main[] = {0x1c89a20f,0x24548924,0x244c8904,0xffc03108,0x48c789c0,0x0cbae689,0x0f000000,0x003cb805,0x050f0000}; ?
03:58:13 <kmc> some numbers enclosed in curly braces, separated by commas
03:58:16 <shachaf> (You're supposed to be the expert.)
03:58:22 <shachaf> Why isn't the cpuid working?
03:58:58 <kmc> you didn't set %eax before invoking cpuid
03:59:18 <shachaf> I deleted that thinking it was leftover from the syscall I was doing before.
04:07:19 <Sgeo> My boss implied that modern browser implies modern computer
04:07:41 <kmc> postmodern browser
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04:40:47 <kmc> feel slightly weird helping random people on IRC crack passwords
04:43:01 <Fiora> I am feeling like I'm doing someone's homework -_-
04:43:03 <Fiora> but I'm too nice not to
04:43:15 <shachaf> It's not nice to do people's homework.
04:43:16 <Bike> my irc experience right there
04:43:21 <shachaf> It makes the world a worse place.
04:43:34 <Bike> though i usually go for the approach of trying to get them to do their own homework
04:43:45 <Bike> which takes four times as long and ends with me extraordinarily frustrated, half the time
04:44:06 <shachaf> I approve of helping people figure things out.
04:44:14 <shachaf> Maybe next time they'll be able to figure them out without my help.
04:44:24 <Fiora> wooo the ming allied with me ryukyu and china will take over the world
04:44:50 <Bike> does the qing dynasty exist
04:44:56 <Bike> or like... the manchus i guess you'd call them
04:46:16 <shachaf> Fiora: did i drive you out of ##fiora permanently
04:46:40 <Fiora> Bike: the manchus exist too
04:48:39 <Bike> like there's qing /and/ manchus, or
04:49:51 <Bike> that seems confusing
04:50:05 <Bike> i thought the manchus pretty much just "became" the qing, hm
04:50:05 <NihilistDandy> Discussion of Chinese history can be found in #the2yeah
04:50:32 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/QAdVr5W.jpg
04:55:31 <Bike> Oh right that whole bannerman thing
05:01:41 <Bike> it was in dream of the red chamber and i was like "buhhhhh history is hard"
05:01:45 <Bike> kmc: have you seen: http://www.kingtrash.com/ants/index.html
05:13:36 <Sgeo> "Sgeo: Do you have any conditions I should know about? My brain contains categories, but not one that matches your last input."
05:13:52 <Sgeo> I managed to not entirely realize that that was a bot, and not a person trying to poke a bit of fun at me.
05:14:05 <shachaf> Even bots poke fun at you, Sgeo.
05:14:14 <Bike> eh, i thought that could be a pretentious human
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05:38:32 <kmc> i should have just fucking kept my mouth shut
05:38:37 <kmc> i would still have a job
05:38:54 <kmc> one that I didn't love but it was fine, and I could have kept doing it for 5 more months which would be financially advantageous
05:39:38 <kmc> instead I believed them when they said they wanted my honest opinion about how things were going
05:39:48 <kmc> and I guess that was a true statement because they used that information against me
05:40:22 <kmc> they got rid of me because I was unhappy and kept the guy with "passion" even though he was demonstrably worse at the job on every axis
05:44:58 <Jafet> Well, job training is easier than passion training
05:53:19 <Fiora> kmccccc you'll be okay
05:53:37 <Fiora> if they actually wanted you gone, they would have gotten rid of you either way, whether you said something or not
05:53:47 <kmc> i'm just bitter about wasting my time and energy
05:53:59 <kmc> I really did work hard and I tried to make it work despite being unhappy
05:54:01 <kmc> now i feel like a fool
05:55:55 <Fiora> geez. you're not a fool
05:56:19 <Fiora> you've got experience for the future, even if some of it is learning the hard way
05:57:14 <kmc> i should stop whining since that's how i got into this problem in the first place
06:04:11 <kmc> fuck paul graham and everyone else for making me think that Doing a Web Startup is the ultimate test of a Real Hacker
06:04:32 <kmc> if it's not clear already, 90% of my complaining about nerd culture is me projecting my own failings and insecurities
06:05:16 <Bike> whenever you feel bad about projecting just think: "at least i'm not freud"
06:05:45 <coppro> `addquote <Bike> whenever you feel bad about projecting just think: "at least i'm not freud"
06:05:49 <HackEgo> 1028) <Bike> whenever you feel bad about projecting just think: "at least i'm not freud"
06:05:56 <HackEgo> 1027) <shachaf> i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian
06:06:02 <HackEgo> 1026) <elliott> sometimes i wake up and my name has grown more consonants
06:06:06 <HackEgo> 1025) <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: undefined variable ' annoy'. you can't infer a static semantic for the language
06:06:32 <coppro> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> you'd almost think somalian domain-name management is a bit sloppy
06:06:35 <HackEgo> 1029) <Phantom_Hoover> you'd almost think somalian domain-name management is a bit sloppy
06:08:59 <Bike> logreader quotator
06:09:05 <Bike> ex-tra-ord-in-air
06:09:22 <coppro> <shachaf> did you know every tricycle is a bicycle
06:09:27 <kmc> fungot: are you vegetarian
06:09:27 <fungot> kmc: but, we are far outnumbered! marle too! ayla have fun! i heard you were to be executed, dear! it was magus who killed off the forest, but you are true heros. the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
06:09:27 <coppro> tricycles aren't even tricycles
06:10:00 <Bike> wow, that was a surprisingly namedroppy fungotism
06:10:01 <fungot> Bike: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!
06:10:10 <Bike> slash is too i imagine
06:12:01 <coppro> someone said something funny
06:12:06 <coppro> and I tried to addquote it and it didn't work
06:12:14 <coppro> except apparently the thing doesn't exist
06:12:19 <HackEgo> 748) <monqy> 200 and 20 are the same <monqy> different notations for the same thing
06:12:29 <HackEgo> 141) <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
06:12:29 <HackEgo> 419) <elliott> in the title of the page it says "Well-Typed - The Haskell Consultants" but i want to know who are the haskell conraisins?
06:12:43 <coppro> is it sad that I know the context to 141 immediately?
06:13:50 <Bike> i'm guessing it's about quantum bogosort?
06:14:03 <HackEgo> 68) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
06:14:08 <HackEgo> 487) <fizzie> They're (according to current plans/rumours) going to release a grand total of approximately 1.1 MeeGo devices; the N9, plus the N950 "developers only" phone, which I'm counting as 0.1 because (even though it is a MeeGo device) it's not going to actually be released.
06:14:30 <HackEgo> *poof* [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
06:16:36 <HackEgo> 1000) <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta.
06:16:51 <Bike> we have a problem, coppro.
06:17:56 <coppro> there aren't enough zzo38 quotes?
06:18:02 <HackEgo> 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django
06:18:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19326
06:18:50 <HackEgo> *poof* <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one
06:19:09 <HackEgo> 987) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
06:19:27 <HackEgo> 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one
06:19:52 <coppro> Bike: why is that a good thing?
06:20:15 <Bike> it's not it's apocalyptic
06:21:34 <coppro> is that supposed to be magenta?
06:24:59 <zzo38> Do you like it to be magenta?
06:27:40 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I83tKYquJUI
06:29:13 <Fiora> kmc: probably a good start is just not hanging around those people really
06:29:25 <Fiora> which I guess you already kind of do?
06:29:33 <Bike> well he still needs a job
06:29:42 <Fiora> I meant like personally but
06:29:49 <Fiora> I guess I am a weird person who doesn't really do personal interaction much at work
06:29:55 <kmc> i want to like them but i'm bitter
06:30:04 <kmc> they're generally good people
06:30:14 <kmc> i don't think they were really malicious, but we failed to communicate
06:31:01 <Fiora> I don't think you have to paint someone as malicious really
06:31:17 <Fiora> like. I don't think that all the people involved in the whole hackernewswebstartupsiliconvalley mess are bad people, that's really silly
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06:40:13 <kmc> thanks ThatOtherPerson
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06:53:00 <shachaf> Why did I say "i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian", again?
06:53:42 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
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07:04:57 * hagb4rd sets mode www.rainymood.com + http://magnus.gustavsson.se/pdf/cthulhu.pdf
07:06:29 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to madb4rd.
07:18:33 <shachaf> Bike: do you know all about bicategories.
07:19:23 <shachaf> i nitya to become an expert in them by next week
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07:38:31 <Fiora> I wish I could do something to help beyond just random attempts at encouraging words :/
07:41:58 <coppro> Fiora: I can provide you with something you can help with!
07:43:30 <Fiora> I-I meant to kmc, but...
07:45:29 <coppro> Fiora: help file bugs! https://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~scshunt/nh4/
07:46:47 <kmc> aw thanks everyone
07:46:49 <kmc> i will be fine
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07:52:01 * Fiora is kind of shy...? but
07:52:14 <Fiora> I don't think I know enough about nethack to like. not die
07:52:31 <Fiora> I think I know Crawl better... and by better I mean. like. more than nothing
07:52:37 <shachaf> i used to play that before i realized it was awful
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07:53:11 <coppro> Fiora: we need to move http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Bugs_in_NetHack_4 into the tracker
07:53:34 <NihilistDandy> I don't think #esoteric will let me play Crawl again
07:53:52 <Fiora> is there something bad about crawl?
07:53:56 <coppro> see https://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~scshunt/nh4/ticket/41 for a template
07:54:19 <mnoqy> there are lots of bad things about crawl but most of all NihilistDandy is bad at crawl
07:54:40 <Fiora> I'm kind of terrible too
07:54:54 <Fiora> like. after a month or two my best run was ~1 rune, I think
07:55:01 <shachaf> Fiora: At Crawl, you mean?
07:55:08 <Fiora> on my best run I was doing rather well but I fell into a teleport trap on elf 5 that literally sent me into the enemy hordes at the end of the level
07:55:35 <madb4rd> i crawl terrified through the firt levels like a girl
07:55:40 <NihilistDandy> Fiora: On my best run, all of #esoteric was yelling at me to not be an idiot and being amazed every time I didn't meet with a well-deserved death
07:56:00 <NihilistDandy> I think it was actually my first or second run, for that matter
07:56:09 <Fiora> I loved watching peoples' hilarious-death videos uploaded, though. though I don't think I ever got a good one...
07:56:28 <NihilistDandy> I think I was dancing around a staircase with a hydra or something
07:56:37 <Fiora> I think I usually crawl terrified through the later levels
07:56:43 <Fiora> well. like the first few are okay and then like
07:56:48 <Fiora> one of the horrible evil bosses shows up
07:57:04 <madb4rd> its like theres no multiplayer
07:57:10 <shachaf> The Wizard of Yendor is horrible.
07:57:13 <madb4rd> i could just stay behind your back
07:58:00 <Fiora> I'm I'm not sure having someone behind my back would be an improvement
07:58:18 <madb4rd> not for you. i would use you as a shield
07:58:58 <Fiora> gosh, even in game I play as like the squishiest wizard XD
07:59:04 <Fiora> I think I was a draconic sorceress
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07:59:46 <shachaf> coppro: Not when he steals your quest artifact which gives magic resistance.
08:00:47 <Fiora> I think I play as squishy wizards in nearly everything
08:00:57 <Fiora> it's like playing a self-insert except I can't actually shoot fireballs at things
08:01:51 <NihilistDandy> Fiora: Complete the illusion and learn to shoot fireballs
08:02:43 <Fiora> shachaf: http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff356/ZephyrTheLight/Touhou/Spark_lesson.jpg like that?
08:02:56 <madb4rd> anyone who ever tried cooking meth knows
08:03:25 <madb4rd> how bout a new class? methcook
08:03:26 <Fiora> I don't know how to shoot fireballs. like where do I get a staff
08:04:13 <shachaf> A staff? How does that help?
08:04:21 <Fiora> http://24.media.tumblr.com/8a0b4b292c0cfdd295398e39845f83e3/tumblr_mlxk5lVLsg1raym3wo1_500.gif like that!
08:04:33 <madb4rd> it helps to stimulate the mana circulation
08:05:35 <Fiora> I don't have one :<
08:06:03 <madb4rd> you just haven't earned one yet
08:10:49 <Fiora> okay okay wands too
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08:13:38 <Fiora> u-um... anyways...
08:13:43 <Fiora> I'm not sure I'm very good with a bug tracker
08:14:21 <NihilistDandy> Practice by writing lots of buggy code and submitting it to open source projects who don't have time for your shit
08:14:35 <Fiora> I'm also kind of playing some europa universalis I guess
08:15:13 <Fiora> the last time I submitted an open source bug report+patch they told me the code was terrible and needs to be rewritten so patch rejected or something like that
08:15:20 <Fiora> (um, not my code, the code I was trying to patch)
08:15:35 <Fiora> so I just used it myself ...
08:15:55 <Fiora> I mean they were kind of right but my patch fixed it <.<
08:16:07 <Fiora> (it was a terrible hack but... jdlskldf)
08:17:22 <Fiora> EU3, I haven't played any of the earlier ones
08:17:52 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/bGLcLmU.jpg I'm ryukyu :3
08:20:24 <madb4rd> do i need all that extensions?
08:21:05 <Fiora> NihilistDandy: I still haven't unlocked Noble Republic
08:21:12 <Fiora> I'm a bit farther now, like, 1514ish, but not quite there yet
08:21:29 <Fiora> the east is on a ~40% research penalty, sooo
08:21:45 <Fiora> um.... the expansions? if you want EU3 you should probably get the complete pack, I think. they've updated the mechanics kind of enormously
08:21:57 <Fiora> like when I tried divine wind I was like oh gosh what is going on this is a different game
08:22:18 <Fiora> it's kind of a really slow, long, overcomplicated strategy game (like every paradox game), so make sure you like that kind of thing ^^;
08:22:41 <Fiora> yeah, I haven't tried one of those yet but they look interesting if a bit scary to play
08:24:49 <Fiora> I'm really bad at EU though really
08:26:21 <NihilistDandy> Playing Papal State sounds badass. I forgot how awesome Catholicism sounds on a mythic level
08:26:43 <Fiora> oh! that reminds me, this tumblr is like the bestest tumblr
08:26:44 <Fiora> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/
08:26:56 <Fiora> it's completely hilarious results of various paradox games
08:27:13 <Fiora> like cornwall taking over the UK, scandinavian africa... XD
08:27:55 <Fiora> holland forming china, cornwall and cyprus taking over europe together
08:28:02 <Fiora> quebec africa... XD
08:30:16 <Fiora> bike introduced me to it, it's kind of wonderful
08:33:39 <NihilistDandy> Are the historical figures real people, or is it more "here's a guy whose name is a bit French"
08:34:10 <Fiora> ummm I think there's a mode for historical figures vs random figures?
08:34:35 <Fiora> you can also start the game at any point in history (in the game's range, ~1390-1820) and it'll set up the map based on how it was at that point in history (with leaders and so on to match)
08:35:13 <Fiora> however you want basically
08:35:25 <Fiora> it has 6 speeds, from paused to the fastest. kind of like simcity
08:36:16 <Fiora> (it's very verymuch not a twitch game)
08:46:10 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:50BMG_size_comparison.JPG "20 x 102 mm round with .50 BMG rounds, golf ball, stick of RAM."
08:48:25 <NihilistDandy> I'm trying to figure out what sort of person owns all of those items
08:48:49 <NihilistDandy> Or, come to think of it, who owns all those things but *not* a ruler
08:50:06 <fizzie> I suppose you've got to own guns if you want to play golf, right?
08:52:27 <fizzie> I was thinking more about defending yourself from the... hazards...
08:55:23 <FreeFull> Fiora: No results for poland on that tumblr
08:55:42 <Fiora> I thought I remember seeing some wonderful poland ones
08:55:46 <Fiora> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/post/47960065022
08:55:58 <Fiora> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/post/46764666711
08:56:15 <Fiora> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/post/45346853367 or this... xD
08:58:10 <fizzie> Why is there never a giant empire of Finland in that sort of things?
08:58:30 <Fiora> there's some I think!
08:58:35 <Fiora> though I think it's often a united scandinavia
08:58:47 <Fiora> since there's a way to form scandinavia if you unite all the scandinavian territories
08:58:49 <fizzie> That doesn't sound very... "believable"...
08:58:52 <Fiora> (it's a long series of ahistorical things)
08:59:02 <Fiora> "believable worlds" is a joke, I think XD
08:59:35 <Fiora> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/image/41530555981
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10:16:40 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:16:56 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:17:04 <shachaf> you can't relcome yourself............................................................................................................................................
10:17:10 <shachaf> s/\./.........................................../g
10:18:20 <ion> s/\./.........................................../g while 1
10:20:23 <ion> s/ion/ion ion ion/g while 1
10:31:43 <NihilistDandy> `relcome shachaf................................................
10:31:45 <HackEgo> shachaf................................................: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:32:02 <shachaf> `run echo NihilistDandy | r
10:32:03 <HackEgo> bash: r: command not found
10:32:07 <shachaf> `run echo NihilistDandy | rainbow
10:33:15 <shachaf> `run echo $'#!/bin/bash\necho "$@"' > bin/e; chmod +x bin/e
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10:51:31 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,
10:53:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:55:01 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
10:55:31 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
10:55:38 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
10:55:45 <HackEgo> bin/! \ bin/? \ bin/@ \ bin/e \ bin/h \ bin/q \ bin/y
10:55:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g -e 's/!\?$/!/'
10:56:10 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
10:56:17 <shachaf> `run grep 1230530576 bin/?
10:56:27 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; }
10:57:14 <FireFly> ...I thought the output was a bit weird
10:57:25 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
10:57:26 <FireFly> but weird output isn't exactly rare when it comes to HackEgo
10:57:27 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....@.....@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@................... ..................`.....`.................... .................`.....`............................
10:57:33 <HackEgo> ELF...Ht$..>............8.......HHu<H.8........................fy \ ...............H \ HuB \ H)H
10:57:37 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
10:57:52 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
10:58:06 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
11:00:20 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
11:00:53 <shachaf> ?????????????????????????????????
11:01:28 <FireFly> Feel free to add something
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11:12:38 <shachaf> kmc: do you know anything about system76.com
11:13:32 <[mbm]> isn't that the old propaganda site?
11:14:41 <[mbm]> nm, thinking system12.com
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11:19:07 <NihilistDandy> Wikipedia definitely made propaganda sound cooler than it appears to be
11:20:19 <[mbm]> the guy that ran the site was pretty much a community troll
11:20:47 <Lymia> What kind of site is this?
11:21:00 <[mbm]> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(desktop_backgrounds)
11:24:18 <NihilistDandy> But the air of defeat detracts from the ranty quality and diminishes its luster.
11:26:23 <[mbm]> it all goes back to when some people started writing a new amiga ui and he did tons of artwork for various widgets like scrollbars and buttons
11:26:54 <[mbm]> and nobody told him that the project died
11:28:14 <NihilistDandy> Also, reading all the other comments in the thread makes me aware of some kind of 13 year old injoke that I will likely waste 10 minutes trying to figure out.
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11:29:13 <[mbm]> damn, guess it has been that long
11:29:39 <NihilistDandy> Something about Windows and the RIAA, or maybe VA Linux Systems, Intel, and the RIAA
11:30:43 <[mbm]> va linux systems was the company that owned various websites, including slashdot and sourceforge; at one time they hosted the propaganda site
11:36:13 <mroman_> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/04/0224248/uk-benefits-claimants-must-use-windows-xp-ie6
11:36:30 <mroman_> Somebody is doing his job so horribly wrong he shouldn't even have a work permit
11:39:27 <[mbm]> seems fairly obvious; old website and nobody knows how to fix it
11:43:52 <mroman_> because no matter how quirky it is, somebody can fix it
11:44:09 <mroman_> or rebuild it from scratch
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12:09:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: coffee is bad for you hth <-- not as bad as caffeine witdrawal. also it's actually supposed to be healthy.
12:09:51 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:10:34 <oerjan> @tell NihilistDandy Okay
12:10:48 <lambdabot> NihilistDandy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:11:20 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: anyway i expect it's similar to the elementary CA numbering in spirit
12:11:39 <shachaf> how did it feel to have glugbot be down
12:12:26 <NihilistDandy> I expected so, I just couldn't for the life of me figure out what it was derived from. The total number was fairly obvious, but being able to say "oh, yeah, it's totally that one" is much less so
12:12:34 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> Is programming almost exclusively in Haskell bad for you? <-- just mix in some esolang programming hth (and a bit of perl.)
12:13:22 <shachaf> oerjan: i always thought "hth" was a troll thing to say
12:13:44 <shachaf> i thought it was part of "YHBT YHL HAND" but in retrospect none of those is hth
12:14:04 <oerjan> shachaf: you think "mix in some esolang programming" isn't a troll suggestion?
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12:14:15 <shachaf> i guess some people say "HTH HAND" and that's how i formed the association
12:14:35 <shachaf> oerjan: No, it's a joke. It's meant to amuse rather than irritate.
12:15:20 <oerjan> i may be bad at that distinction hth
12:15:46 <shachaf> either that or a very good one
12:15:49 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: i think it's just an oerjan meme
12:16:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure at the moment if anyone else uses it
12:16:30 <NihilistDandy> I feel like I see it in this channel a lot, lately
12:17:06 <oerjan> hm and i wasn't here yesterday
12:17:22 <oerjan> itt shachaf admits to his sins hth
12:17:31 <shachaf> (But when I use it, it expands to "hope that helped".)
12:17:54 <oerjan> shachaf: it does that when i use it too, it just may not always make sense
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12:18:16 <oerjan> or well, i use the present tense.
12:18:35 <olsner> when I use it here it means "that was not supposed to be helpful", everywhere else I think it means "happy to help"
12:18:47 <fizzie> Orwell used the present tense.
12:18:50 <shachaf> Maybe I mean "hope that helps".
12:18:57 <shachaf> I *thought* it was "hope that helped" but I'm not so sure.
12:19:03 <shachaf> At any rate it's definitely "that".
12:19:33 <shachaf> My preferred reading is Orwell.
12:19:39 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> somehow I don't view liquefied brain as a good thing <-- somehow this reminds me of a recently learned fact that cucumbers contain more water than milk does.
12:20:12 <oerjan> fizzie: as did hitler!
12:20:20 <fizzie> People sometimes end messages with "KÄSI" because en:hand (the thing usually at the end of an arm) = fi:käsi.
12:20:34 <olsner> oerjan: also more water than oceans
12:21:02 <NihilistDandy> oerjan: I definitely read that as "Hitler contained more water than milk, as well"
12:21:11 <olsner> not a lot of brains in cucumber though
12:21:15 <NihilistDandy> Which is almost certainly true, in any sense of those words
12:21:26 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: could be.
12:24:22 <oerjan> @tell thatotherperson <ThatOtherPerson> Therefore I think Taneb is Notch. <-- i believe notch is swedish and taneb is sort of everything else.
12:24:54 <oerjan> well everything shachaf isn't, anyway
12:24:58 <NihilistDandy> That's gonna take the fanfic in totally new direction
12:25:48 <fizzie> olsner: Wikipedia's article on seawater implies 96.66% (by mass) of water; the USDA "Cucumber, with peel, raw" table says 95.23% of water. (But both of those probably vary enough so that *some* cucumbers have more water in them than ocean water in some places.)
12:26:08 <fizzie> (Also I think there's more ocean water than cucumbers around, in total.)
12:26:26 <fizzie> (It's called "the blue planet", not "the cucumber planet".)
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12:27:43 <oerjan> shachaf: you are finnish, israeli and american, aren't you? taneb is australian and british, although i'm not sure if he's also american. and i think there were other countries involved.
12:28:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Everyone's Edenian.
12:28:49 <NihilistDandy> fizzie: Though if we go by total mass, we should probably be the "orange-brown" planet or "the orange and hot planet"
12:28:59 <NihilistDandy> I suppose I don't really know what color the outer core is, though
12:29:24 <oerjan> i'm not sure there is much light down there
12:29:39 <oerjan> or wait is that orange as in black body color
12:29:48 <NihilistDandy> http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/earth-cross-section.gif
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12:30:47 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: i think that image uses the largely discredited "earth as a giant orange" theory.
12:30:57 <NihilistDandy> Anyway, this all comes back to my proposal to give the Earth a new epithet "the cucumber planet"
12:31:18 <oerjan> you mean it's actually _green_ inside?
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12:33:53 <oerjan> <fizzie> Possibly it's even without an extra fee, who knows. <-- i see you are not familiar with the norwegian airline company.
12:34:27 <oerjan> they have a big ad campaign on about how they're cheap because they don't include anything unnecessary in the price.
12:35:17 <shachaf> oerjan is neither swedish nor finnish nor wegian
12:38:39 <oerjan> 10:44:56 <Lumpio-> It says it's free. <-- WHY DO YOU MAKE ME LOOK LIKE A FOOL
12:38:50 <oerjan> also why doesn't webchat allow multiline pastes.
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12:42:58 <fizzie> oerjan: I know that's their reputation, but the wifi *still* seemed to be free.
12:43:31 <fizzie> I couldn't find an explicit statement one way or another, but someone else said it's free.
12:44:20 <shachaf> oerjan: have you considered making me a #esoteric op hth
12:44:35 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:45:06 <Taneb> oerjan: aww, but I don't want to learn Perl
12:45:17 <Taneb> I've got a list of programming languages I want to learn
12:45:21 <Taneb> And I think Perl is on it
12:46:07 <Taneb> But so is Scala, so I may completely ignore the list
12:47:25 <oerjan> i assume you have prolog or something from the same paradigm
12:50:58 <shachaf> "i regret i didn't mean scablh that didn't help"?
12:51:08 <shachaf> "i realise i did mean scablh that did help"?
12:51:18 <NihilistDandy> "In retrospect, I did mean Scablah. That did help."
12:51:43 <oerjan> itt we learn new useful acronyms tdh
12:52:05 <NihilistDandy> I just realized that txtspk is like lojban, except that people actually use it
12:53:42 <Taneb> txtspk isn't much like lojban in that lojban has more vowels
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12:55:15 <NihilistDandy> Except when they're explicit, so the comparison holds :D
12:56:01 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> "Male Osedax are microscopic dwarfs that live as "harems" inside the lumen of the gelatinous tube that surrounds each female. An individual female can house hundreds of these males in her tube." there's a joke here but i can't quite see it
12:56:54 <oerjan> i read that as "gelatinous cube" at first, and the sentence did make more sense as being about D&D. hth.
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13:07:48 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> srslytho where are the logs, where have the logs gone <-- tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric hth
13:09:00 <shachaf> oerjan: How was that "trolly", eh?
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13:14:06 <FreeFull> Nature makes more sense in a D&D context apparently
13:16:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Did you bother looking at the other logs? <-- what a ridiculous idea hth
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13:25:02 <madb4rd> somebody must stop that hth fever
13:26:20 <shachaf> oerjan is the only one who can do it hth
13:26:22 <Taneb> itym somebody mustn't stop that hth fever hth
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13:27:06 <oerjan> madb4rd: imo it's too late hth
13:27:41 <nooodl> i caught the hth fever
13:27:46 <nooodl> i've been using hth outside of #esoteric...
13:29:15 <nooodl> fever i haven't caught: the i_i fever
13:29:30 <pikhq> Gah. I wanted to sleep in!
13:30:01 <madb4rd> i dont understand any of that manga smileys ..manga smileys is correct i suppose?
13:30:18 <fizzie> Mango smileys: they taste better.
13:30:26 <madb4rd> <_< that one may be eyes lookin to the side
13:34:18 <madb4rd> can hackego serach the esowiki?
13:35:16 <madb4rd> @google site:esolangs.com i_i
13:35:31 <shachaf> nooodl: Do you mean "i,i"?
13:36:04 <Taneb> @google site:esolangs.com Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
13:36:34 <madb4rd> @google site:esolangs.com hair salon
13:36:47 <shachaf> .com isn't the right tld hth
13:36:59 <Taneb> @google site:esolangs.org Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
13:37:00 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora's_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
13:37:00 <lambdabot> Title: Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download - Esolang
13:37:04 <Taneb> Thought typing it felt weird
13:37:25 <madb4rd> @google site:esolangs.org i_i
13:37:32 <madb4rd> @google site:esolangs.org hair salon
13:37:33 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora's_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
13:37:33 <lambdabot> Title: Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download - Esolang
13:37:41 <shachaf> Taneb: how did you come up with such a wonderful name for an esolang
13:38:03 <Taneb> shachaf: I asked a spambot what it thought I should name it
13:38:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:38:39 <shachaf> * Taneb . o O ( <Taneb> I GOT THE IDEA FROM LIKING HAIR SALONS AND I JUST WENT FROM THERE )
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13:39:15 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=109
13:39:15 <Taneb> The language itself was inspired by BIT and lambda calculus
13:39:25 <shachaf> super mega comics is the best comics
13:41:08 <ion> shachaf: Channel log: 2012-03-23
13:41:30 <shachaf> In about 1.1 billion years, the solar luminosity will be 10% higher than at present. This will cause the atmosphere to become a "moist greenhouse", resulting in a runaway evaporation of the oceans. As a likely consequence, plate tectonics will come to an end.[11]
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13:43:00 <madb4rd> i almost believed tectonic activity was caused by vulcanic activity
13:43:15 <ion> I don’t remember what the bot that came up with the title spammed. The IRC channel or the wiki?
13:43:41 <madb4rd> hail the mighty penis in the sky
13:43:48 <shachaf> 20:24:56: <ion> taneb: Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
13:43:55 <ion> I was referring to the wiki spam.
13:43:58 <NihilistDandy> I remember reading some very funny spam on the wiki
13:44:14 <shachaf> I thought the name was "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
13:44:22 <shachaf> But it turns out to be "Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
13:45:06 <oerjan> madb4rd: i think the theory is that there needs to be water in the earth's interior to lubricate the process
13:45:48 <oerjan> and that venus lack of water is why it doesn't have any
13:46:54 <shachaf> There's a movie called "Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster".
13:47:23 <shachaf> Admittedly the title is much improved when it talks about "Real Fast Nora".
13:47:25 <oerjan> shachaf: you know it's a bad series when the title character dies in the first film
13:48:28 <madb4rd> i like dying title characters..wait i dont like title characters
13:49:01 <NihilistDandy> madb4rd: Oh, then would you ever like [SPOILER ALERT]
13:49:11 <madb4rd> have you read the silmarillion oerjan?
13:49:16 <Taneb> shachaf: it's Real Fast (Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster) Download
13:49:52 <NihilistDandy> Three people in the world are known to have read the Silmarillion. Tolkien himself, his editor, and a girl I met in a bar once
13:50:01 <oerjan> madb4rd: only up do about when they created the sun and moon
13:50:04 <ion> Have you read the silmarillioerjan?
13:50:09 <shachaf> Taneb: Well, maybe the original spam was. But the name of the esolang isn't.
13:50:38 <shachaf> It's (Real Fast Nora)'s Hair Salon 3: (Shear Disaster Download)
13:50:39 <Taneb> The "'s" in "it's" was short for " was"
13:51:04 <shachaf> *Maybe* you could argue for ((Real Fast Nora)'s Hair Salon 3: (Shear Disaster)) Download
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13:51:30 <ion> Silmärilli is Finnish for eyegoggle.
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13:51:36 <NihilistDandy> I'll argue for the "'s" in "Nora's" to also mean "was"
13:51:38 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 27m 16s ago: <ThatOtherPerson> Therefore I think Taneb is Notch. <-- i believe notch is swedish and taneb is sort of everything else.
13:51:40 <madb4rd> i would have think you'll like it.. as the hobby linguist i think you are
13:52:00 <ThatOtherPerson> And then I saw "-!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)."
13:52:16 <madb4rd> everyone dies in this book
13:52:24 <shachaf> spoilers, this book is #esoteric
13:52:52 <Taneb> oerjan: I'm just British/Australian with Dutch and possibly Spanish and Sri Lankan ancestry
13:53:06 <shachaf> hey i have all sorts of *ancestry*
13:53:18 <shachaf> i thought we were talking about citizenships
13:53:45 <Taneb> shachaf: I was describing both
13:54:00 <Taneb> The first two are both, the last three are the latter only
13:54:11 <shachaf> Taneb: aren't all australians criminals hth
13:54:14 <NihilistDandy> I'm about to have a very Lord of the Rings moment, in that I'm about to run out of pipe tobacco
13:54:39 <ion> They keep running out of pipe tobacco in LotR?
13:54:46 <Taneb> shachaf: the Australians I'm descended from came over from the Netherlands in the 50's
13:55:17 <shachaf> Taneb: that proves nothing
13:56:09 <Taneb> Not as far as I am aware
13:56:32 <Taneb> And also the British I were descended from mostly stole sheep on the England/Scotland border
13:57:14 <shachaf> you're breaking the laws of grammar
13:57:37 <ion> Are all Taneb also criminals?
13:57:50 <NihilistDandy> ion: "Last of the South Farthing Leaf" or some such hobbitism
13:57:58 <Taneb> I believe all the Tanebs other than me are racehorses
13:59:15 <shachaf> other Tanebs invent A-modules
13:59:21 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: People on Scratch are so saccharine I may get diabetes
13:59:24 <shachaf> some of them invent B-modules or C-modules
13:59:31 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
13:59:38 <shachaf> our Taneb invents D-modules :'(
14:02:55 <shachaf> Taneb was around back in the 1970s.
14:02:56 <NihilistDandy> Or he's lying about his age, name, and nationality
14:03:17 <shachaf> The d in ngevd stands for d-module
14:03:49 <NihilistDandy> Not as bad as stack theory, I guess, but that's not saying much
14:04:31 <FireFly> shachaf: what do the other letters stand for??
14:07:00 <shachaf> norway germany estonia venezuela
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14:10:08 <FireFly> Inter-continental D-module theory
14:11:00 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: The horse racing nation isn't saying anything about you, and it says you died in 1963
14:11:47 <FireFly> "isn't saying anything about you, and it says you died"
14:11:53 <FireFly> There's a contradiction around here
14:25:18 <Sgeo> Should I watch Watchmen or read Watchmen?
14:26:26 <Sgeo> Is it... just one book, or is it a series
14:27:10 <Sgeo> ...Amazon is telling me I could read it on my Kindle
14:27:16 <Sgeo> I thought it was a graphic novel
14:27:27 <Sgeo> (Also I don't have a Kindle, but I do have a Nook)
14:27:42 <Sgeo> Should I not bother with ebook version?
14:28:16 <pikhq> I'd assume as much.
14:28:19 <madb4rd> "super" is a great comic-related movie imo
14:28:28 <madb4rd> heroes without superpowers
14:29:33 <madb4rd> its partly brilliant i'd say
14:29:47 <Sgeo> Going to go see if it's worth getting a PO box
14:29:56 <Sgeo> Because dad won't give me the key to the mailbox here
14:30:59 <Taneb> `addquote <Sgeo> Should I watch Watchmen or read Watchmen? [...] <NihilistDandy> Please, who *watches* The Watchmen?
14:31:03 <HackEgo> 1029) <Sgeo> Should I watch Watchmen or read Watchmen? [...] <NihilistDandy> Please, who *watches* The Watchmen?
14:33:26 <Koen_> is that the one with helen page madb4rd?
14:33:35 <madb4rd> http://www.movie2k.to/Super-watch-movie-780017.html
14:34:04 <Sgeo> I could, if I wanted, buy a new Kindle every week. (Why would I do that)
14:34:20 <Sgeo> Money feels weird
14:34:46 <Taneb> Sgeo: the other day, I gave 5 to one of my friends for absolutely no reason
14:34:52 <Taneb> I recommend doing stuff like that
14:34:58 <Taneb> Giving money to my friends, that is
14:39:00 * Sgeo just donated $25 to Doctors Without Borders
14:48:14 * impomatic likes something in return for his money...
14:49:37 <Taneb> By which I of course meant, To Be Or Not To Be: That Is The Adventure comes out this month!
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15:03:44 <Koen_> I'll show you how it's done ais523
15:03:46 <lambdabot> elliott said 3d 13h 12m 3s ago: imo, fuck iou
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15:19:12 <Taneb> The two main reasons I am not using Haiku as my primary OS
15:19:27 <Taneb> 1) No driver for my wireless adaptor
15:29:46 <FireFly> Oh, right, that's another OS I gotta try someday
15:31:33 <Sgeo> I'd like my ability to get my mail to not be tied to my dad.
15:32:20 <Gregor> Taneb: (3) Not a useful or complete OS.
15:32:32 <Taneb> Gregor: since when have I cared about that
15:37:55 <NihilistDandy> I heard that Word of God OS got a new name. You could try that out
15:38:24 <mroman_> Adaptor sounds like raptor
15:38:29 <mroman_> but more adapted to todays needs.
15:38:36 <mroman_> You could port ghc to Haiku
15:38:56 <Taneb> (Haiku is also the OS I've been second most successful installing)
15:39:22 <elliott> Taneb: are you sure this contravariant "f" isn't a mistake
15:39:51 <Taneb> elliott: it's not my mistake, mm_freak is trying to teach that not everything of kind * -> * is a Functor
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16:15:15 <Sgeo> What episode of TNG should I watch?
16:15:44 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to geheimdienst.
16:15:49 <NihilistDandy> The one where Picard lives a second life in 20 minutes
16:16:00 -!- geheimdienst has changed nick to is.
16:16:14 -!- is has changed nick to copumpkin.
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16:27:50 <ion> Watch Voyager: Threshold.
16:29:27 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:30:32 <ion> olsner: Ah, indeed. He should watch the animated series.
16:30:52 <olsner> yes, where you get to meet Spock's pet Targh
16:31:24 <ion> And the devil is actually a good guy from another planet, just misunderstood.
16:32:04 <NihilistDandy> My favorite episode of Star Trek is an episode of Doctor Who
16:32:26 <ion> Was that the Babylon 5 one? Yeah, that was a good episode of Star Trek.
16:33:23 <olsner> nah, I think that was A New Hope (episode 4? iirc)
16:36:26 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
16:38:12 <ThatOtherPerson> From a Wikipedia article I was reading: "The park was famed for its automata well into the fifteenth century before it was destroyed by English soldiers in the sixteenth century."
16:39:49 -!- SleepyFifi has changed nick to Fiora.
16:40:17 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: where is it, france?
16:40:25 <NihilistDandy> I reversed century precedence for a minute and thought Taneb had destroyed it before it had become famous for its automata
16:42:27 * Sgeo wonders if he gets Babylon 5 for 'free'
16:43:41 <Sgeo> I should really watch The Matrix
16:44:27 <Sgeo> I've been doing the legal thing lately
16:44:36 <Sgeo> Mostly because I can
16:44:53 <Bike> is this the power of money?!
16:58:02 <Sgeo> Behold! The power of money!
16:58:42 <Sgeo> That was not intended to line up.
16:58:51 <Bike> good 'cos it didn't
16:59:10 <Sgeo> Are you using a non-monospaced font for IRC??
16:59:34 <Sgeo> ...wait. am i using a nonmonospaced font for irc
17:00:42 <Sgeo> Nope. Eyes are playing tricks on me.
17:08:58 <Sgeo> At the very beginning of the Matrix, are viewers supposed to be tricked into thinking the agents (and police) are the good guys?
17:09:46 <Bike> Are the other guys still wearing sunglasses and trenchcoats?
17:12:28 <Sgeo> At the point I was referring to we didn't even meet Neo
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17:42:46 <Sgeo> You know what would make sense? If they _told_ him what the experience would be like. Do this, don't do this, co-operate with this machine, avoid this one, etc.
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17:44:05 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: It would also make sense if they didn't contact him in a public IRC channel or call him over the phone in a world run and monitored by the machines.
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17:45:33 <Bike> something something maya something
17:52:33 <Bike> no, the concept it's named after
17:53:35 <kmc> shachaf: 'sometimes'
17:53:36 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:53:51 <lambdabot> shachaf said 4h 4m 55s ago: do you logread
17:54:31 <Bike> one of the things the matrix is based on
17:56:23 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, would talking in 'person' really be any better?
17:57:27 <NihilistDandy> I dunno. There weren't agents closing in on the gang's every move when they were feeding him drugs, apparently, so maybe somebody needs to actually be in the room
17:58:03 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:59:06 <Sgeo> When they're uploading martial arts knowledge, one of them is 'drunken boxing'
18:05:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
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18:40:54 <ThatOtherPerson> (I have no idea how to properly say that in proper English)
18:41:58 <Bike> I MUST FIND THE GAME CREATED BY I, THATOTHERPERSON, AND MY COMPATRIOT TANEB
18:45:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: copumpkin).
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18:56:45 <ThatOtherPerson> but aren't you always supposed to mention yourself at the end of a list of people?
18:58:10 <ThatOtherPerson> Also, if you removed "Taneb", then that would be "me game", and that's just pirate speak
18:58:21 <Bike> you're supposed to do "Taneb and I", yeah
18:58:31 <Bike> "me and Taneb" is "ungrammatical" but fuck it
18:58:34 <Phantom__Hoover> no, it would be 'my game' because that's how genitives work
18:59:42 <Sgeo> Computer programs in charge of running a VR should be a bit more ... omnipotent than Matrix agents
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19:15:31 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Cuttlefish-Shapeshifter-Erotica-ebook/dp/B0087PTMW2 i hope you know this is going to /fuck up/ my amazon recs
19:15:35 <HackEgo> 1030) <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Cuttlefish-Shapeshifter-Erotica-ebook/dp/B0087PTMW2 i hope you know this is going to /fuck up/ my amazon recs
19:18:59 <oerjan> rule 34 i assume (i did not click that link but i clicked the picture linked earlier in the logs)
19:19:18 <elliott> it's just the book that the picture is of
19:20:57 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, a few episodes
19:22:43 <Bike> Anyone here know shit about control theory?
19:23:08 <elliott> we don't do biology here Bike!!
19:23:30 <kmc> Bike: a little tiny bit
19:23:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: are you reading these.. i have a question to ask you!! <-- certainly not!
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19:23:57 <ThatOtherPerson> Life is so much more interesting when you try to interpret everything literally.
19:24:28 <Bike> well, i'm struggling to understand wtf a hamiltonian is
19:24:40 <kmc> oh i don't know about those :/
19:24:46 <elliott> Bike: it's a fancy name for bad breath like biologists have
19:24:58 <Bike> or more directly what Pontryagin's minimum principle is all about
19:25:29 <Bike> elliott what are you even talking about
19:25:48 <elliott> well it sounds like hamiltonian
19:25:55 <elliott> so i twisted your question so i could "burn" biologists
19:26:18 <elliott> In most cases (85–90%), bad breath originates in the mouth itself.[2]
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19:26:36 <Bike> this is a pretty bad burn imo
19:27:06 <elliott> you're disfigured for life by the bad burn
19:27:13 <elliott> (do you see how I interpreted "bad" differently)
19:27:37 <Bike> ok that was better
19:27:50 <elliott> i don't think you get it ThatOtherPerson
19:28:07 <Bike> the joke is that elliott is secretly a myrmecologist.
19:28:30 <elliott> Bike: Jenny is researching prairie ecology, but one day while doing field work she has an unexpected encounter with a herd of wild horses. They're beautiful creatures - and she's shocked when they become handsome men! Jenny's life is about to get much more interesting... and much less lonely.
19:28:37 <elliott> this cuttlefish person's other books are great
19:28:49 <Bike> accurate depiction of fieldwork
19:29:08 <elliott> myrmecologists study mermaids right
19:29:45 <Vorpal> elliott, ... is this bad fan fiction of some sort?
19:29:52 <elliott> Vorpal: fan fiction of what......
19:30:56 <Bike> i think fan fiction of horses is just considered fiction
19:31:21 <Bike> also: no, it's porn.
19:31:30 <Sgeo> Aren't there more than 3 seasons of The IT Crowd?
19:31:35 <Sgeo> Amazon only has 3
19:32:06 <elliott> Bike: does porn not count as fiction
19:32:14 <Bike> not as /fan/ fiction
19:32:22 <Bike> unless it's also fanfiction
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19:33:49 <kmc> you know those dreams where you realize you're still in school and haven't done any work for the term and you're going to fail and then you meet someone cool and embarass yourself in front of them and then all your teeth fall out and your mouth is a bleeding mess?
19:34:33 <Taneb> kmc: I swear that happened to me in real life the other week
19:34:57 <elliott> i had a dream that i think was vaguely interesting yesterday but i forgot it
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19:37:26 <Taneb> elliott: I have an important question for you
19:37:39 <Vorpal> I once dreamt that I was dreaming that I was dreaming. ...
19:38:27 <Taneb> Vorpal: are you sure you just wasn't watching Inception?
19:38:30 <AnotherTest> If yesterday is today, is today then yesterday?
19:38:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, no, but I think the middle dream was lucid
19:38:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, according to the dream anyway
19:38:51 <Taneb> You can tell by the fact Leonardo DiCaprio was in it
19:39:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, I never watched Inception
19:39:22 <Taneb> ...so you dreamt you had a lucid dream, in which you dreamt?
19:39:32 <elliott> Taneb: what is the question
19:39:41 <Taneb> elliott: you'll never know!
19:39:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, then the outer dream got lucid and I woke up.
19:39:56 <Taneb> oerjan: how is my "evil genius" going?
19:39:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it is spelled syringe
19:40:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: copumpkin).
19:40:16 <AnotherTest> To be or not to be, that is the question elliott
19:40:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:41:32 <oerjan> Taneb: you seem to have succeeded at keeping your evil plans secret to me, at least.
19:42:24 <Taneb> ...I write about flaming time trees?
19:42:39 <oerjan> but you should get a nemesis to reveal everything to, for historical recordkeeping
19:42:59 <Taneb> I can assure you that you have not yet began to unearth even the very beginning of my schemes!
19:43:08 <Taneb> oerjan: you can email me your CV if you want
19:43:24 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: no, actually you read about flames throughout time on trees.
19:43:28 <oerjan> i cannot be your nemesis, an evil genius needs a good nemesis.
19:44:00 <Taneb> Would you be in the same rogues' gallery as me, then?
19:44:19 <Taneb> oerjan: we'd be like the Joker and the Penguin!
19:44:56 <Sgeo> Do Good Old Games games work on Linux?
19:45:09 <oerjan> i have to admit i only know barely enough batman to have heard of the penguin
19:45:31 <Sgeo> There's a penguin?
19:45:43 <Bike> one of batman'svillains is called the Penguin.
19:45:55 <ThatOtherPerson> Really, what person in his right mind would dress up like a bat to fight crime?
19:46:01 <oerjan> now opus the penguin, there's a scary nemesis
19:46:11 * Sgeo was under the impression that Batman is not in his right mind
19:46:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: he's off the grey scale
19:46:58 <Taneb> Sgeo: depends on the version
19:47:25 <kmc> do you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Jones
19:47:51 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: http://www.answers.com/topic/dendropyrochronology <-- it is your calling
19:48:08 <Bike> skin fire tie?
19:48:12 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: that's a stupid idea
19:48:28 <Taneb> Bike: dendro- is tree, I'm pretty sure
19:48:36 <Taneb> Hence rhodadendron, lit. "rose tree"
19:48:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:48:50 <Bike> oh, that's actually a sensible term, and not something dumb and made up
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19:49:13 <Bike> «Jones says the best way to prevent getting mistaken for a criminal by the police is to wear a "supersuit"»
19:49:57 <Sgeo> 'Jones says the best way to prevent getting mistaken for a criminal by the police is to wear a "supersuit",[8] although local police have expressed concern that the strange costumes may lead to emergency calls from citizens who mistake the "superheroes" for criminals.'
19:50:15 -!- kmc has set topic: May the Firth of Forth be with you! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:50:16 <Sgeo> There's an obvious problem with this, unless police start trying to recognize individuals
19:50:42 <kmc> there are lots of videos of him on youtube too
19:50:50 <oerjan> and here i resisted putting that in the topic earlier
19:51:12 <elliott> He does not condone other people dressing up and fighting crime.
19:51:16 <oerjan> well, something similar.
19:51:47 <kmc> "Geologically, the Firth of Forth is a fjord"
19:52:30 <Sgeo> Did Vorpal just get here?
19:52:32 <Vorpal> Someone suggested that wearing a superman costume or similar would reduce the risk being mistaken for a criminal?
19:52:43 <Sgeo> Yes, everyone was talking about this guy.
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19:52:53 <elliott> guys we all know Vorpal only has two lines of scrollback
19:53:07 <Vorpal> Outside of a comics convention, this makes no sense.
19:53:16 <ais523> elliott: fwiw, it's almost an entire screen back for me
19:53:26 <ais523> so if I hadn't been looking at the conversation at the time, I'd have had to scroll
19:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I read the line "<Sgeo> 'Jones says the best way to prevent getting mistaken for a criminal by the police is to wear a "supersuit",[8] although local police have expressed concern that the strange costumes may lead to emergency calls from citizens who mistake the "superheroes" for criminals.'"
19:53:37 <Vorpal> and just went WTH at it
19:54:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see anything much above it apart from Bike's line
19:54:20 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> also why are people always ragging on the -gate suffix <-- because it's cool hthgate
19:54:21 <ais523> if there was a reliable way to make people think you were legit, then criminals would use it
19:55:40 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't think being mistaken for a criminal has ever been a concern of mine. I never had anyone think I was a criminal. Ever.
19:55:53 <oerjan> wait i read that as tagging disregard hthgate
19:55:54 <Vorpal> So I'm not sure it is all that useful.
19:56:05 * kmc is a criminal
19:56:08 * kmc is a smooth criminal
19:56:18 <oerjan> or wait would that be tacking
19:56:19 <Vorpal> kmc, how do you mean smooth?
19:56:29 <oerjan> kmc: but are you analytic?
19:57:30 <elliott> `Real-life superheroes (RLSH) are people who dress up in costumes, help the homeless, and fight crime.[1][2]
19:57:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Real-life: not found
19:58:15 <elliott> The December 31, 2009 Norwegian publication, Aftenposten featured an article and photos of Real-Life Superheroes. The article included "Life", "Geist", "The Deaths Head Moth", "Dreizehn", "Entomo" and "Superhero."[20][clarification needed]
19:58:21 <elliott> imagine calling yourself Superhero
19:58:34 <elliott> The British tabloid The Sun ran an article on the country's Real-Life Superheroes, including "The Statesman", "Vague", "Swift", "Black Arrow", "Lionheart" and "Terrorvision".[21][22]
19:58:58 <oerjan> Unimaginatively Named Man
20:00:14 <oerjan> are there any comic book superheroes that insist on wearing only ordinary clothes
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20:00:40 <Bike> the question, sorta?
20:01:37 <kmc> are there any comic book superheroes that insist on wearing nothing
20:02:15 <Bike> the engineer, silver surfer?
20:03:34 <kmc> `quote 380
20:03:35 <HackEgo> 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
20:04:12 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: there are a whole shitload of terms for roma people
20:04:27 <Sgeo> Huh. #toilet still exists
20:04:39 <kmc> what is it about
20:04:40 <Bike> Oh, it's from Greek
20:04:47 <kmc> also shouldn't it be ##toilet
20:04:50 <Bike> The name originates with Byzantine Greek ατσίγγανοι (atsinganoi, Latin adsincani) or αθίγγανοι (athinganoi, literally "untouchables"), a term applied to the sect of the Melchisedechians
20:04:52 <elliott> Bike: that does not count as normal, imo
20:05:09 <Bike> elliott: faces don't count as clothes!
20:05:18 <Sgeo> ##toilet is also registered and is very new
20:05:55 <NihilistDandy> I guess Black Widow and Nick Fury are technically plain-clothes
20:06:12 <Bike> elliott: then what do you mean!
20:06:43 <NihilistDandy> And there was Jubilee from X-Men, the very definition of the '80s
20:06:55 <elliott> imo, ask not what I mean, but what yourself means
20:11:31 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> <oerjan> by some freak coincidence taneb is elliott's next door neighbor <-- is this true <-- it is unreasonably close to true.
20:12:16 <elliott> that one was good because you said it before the hexham thing actually happened.
20:13:42 <Bike> by 'the hexham thing' do you mean the two of you continuing to live in the same place(s)
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20:14:25 <ThatOtherPerson> (plot twist: Hexham doesn't really exist and is an elaborate scheme cooked up by Taneb and elliott)
20:14:36 <Vorpal> man, there are sooo many strange super-heroes and villains.
20:14:42 <elliott> Bike: i mean the part where...
20:14:43 <ThatOtherPerson> (and they put it in all the maps and made all the websites and whatnot)
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20:16:35 <elliott> 21:39:06: <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm a Northumbrian <-- and you say that after i was joking the other they that you were coincidentally Elliott's next door neighboor
20:16:47 <elliott> Bike: this happens http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-07-16#160048PhantomHoover
20:18:20 <Vorpal> 16:08:53: <oklofok> someone still uses facebook? <-- so oklo
20:18:35 <Vorpal> 16:09:37: <Taneb> 1789 friends <-- still that bad Taneb?
20:18:41 <elliott> Bike: btw stop reading that log before it gets to the cheater
20:18:43 <Bike> well i see esoteric has been roughly as incomprehensible in the distant past as it is now
20:18:49 <Taneb> Vorpal: I deleted that account
20:19:11 <Vorpal> do you use face book still?
20:19:19 <Taneb> Yeah, my current account has 250 friends
20:19:20 <Bike> i use face book
20:19:44 <Vorpal> Taneb and elliott, have you two met in RL yet?
20:20:18 <Vorpal> when you are so close to each other
20:20:18 <Bike> it's not that weird, arranging irl meetups is weird
20:20:27 <Bike> also probably hard to get up the motivation if it's somewhere as boring as hexham
20:20:35 <elliott> Bike: well the astonishing thing is that i don't like even recognise his face
20:20:42 <elliott> by all rights we should have bumped into each other multiple times
20:20:47 <Bike> doesn't hexham have like thousands of people in it
20:20:55 <elliott> i mean the population is like 12k
20:20:59 <Bike> that's still thousands
20:21:27 <Taneb> Hexham's a small town in Northumberland
20:21:41 <Taneb> Which is a big county by area but tiny by population
20:22:06 <Bike> i mean, my town has 17k but i can remember like. two faces. half a face
20:22:40 <Taneb> I believe Hexham has an aging population
20:22:51 <Vorpal> Bike, what? Sure you must have more than 2.5 friends?
20:22:53 <elliott> never mind Bike you just don't get hexham
20:22:56 <Taneb> So the amount of people in me and elliott's age group is maybe a couple of hundred at most
20:23:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, every place has an aging population.
20:23:08 <elliott> Taneb: probably more than that
20:23:11 <Bike> Vorpal: why would i be on irc if i had friends.
20:23:15 <Vorpal> though some of it stay still due to the birth rate
20:23:44 <Bike> the joke is crushing loneliness.
20:23:53 <Taneb> elliott: take in mind that there are about 240 in each year at the high school and a lot of those, probably more than half, come in from out of town
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20:24:07 <Bike> that's a good deal less than my high school
20:24:33 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Don't all places have aging populations? If not, I'd like to move to one of the exceptions.
20:24:40 <Taneb> Bike: there's one high school in town and everyone of the appropriate age except elliott attends
20:24:53 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: I meant something subtly different to what I said
20:24:53 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, you mean where people grow younger year by year?
20:24:58 <Bike> elliott you'renot in one of those fucking weenie college things are you
20:25:20 <elliott> Bike: weenie college things???
20:25:29 <Taneb> Bike: pretty much everyone in my year at school (which elliott I think would just be in) knows who I am
20:25:34 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, yeah, if there was a place where you aged backward, I would live in that place every other year
20:25:39 <Bike> i know a guy who's like fifteen and in college because he's in some program for that
20:25:45 <Bike> Taneb: are you 'popular'
20:25:46 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:25:53 <Taneb> Bike: more 'infamous'
20:25:55 <elliott> i know a guy who's like fifteen and in college too!
20:26:04 <Bike> elliott: ok but everyone you know is kind of a freak.
20:26:19 <elliott> Bike: yeah but this one is also in #esoteric while not simultaneously being a biologist or a bicycle, and hence cool.
20:26:27 <NihilistDandy> In retrospect, I wish I'd dropped out of high school at 15, gotten my GED, and not wasted so much time faffing about with high school
20:26:28 <Vorpal> <Taneb> Bike: pretty much everyone in my year at school (which elliott I think would just be in) knows who I am <-- what? you are in the same year??
20:26:33 <Vorpal> and don't know each other RL?
20:26:50 <Bike> vorpal you have really different social norms from me, wtf
20:26:54 <Taneb> Vorpal: I don't comment on elliott's education due to lack of information
20:26:59 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, what about university?
20:27:07 <Taneb> My sources claim elliott is "a bit odd"
20:27:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, you mean your experience on IRC?
20:27:21 <Bike> dammit elliott you're a weenie aren't you AREN'T YOU
20:27:31 <Bike> his real life elliott spy network
20:27:33 <elliott> Bike: i'm upset w.r.t. being called a weenie!!!!!
20:27:51 <Taneb> Vorpal: someone who went to first school with an elliott who wasn't Facekicker
20:27:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hey are you still as much below average height as you used to be?
20:27:58 <Bike> i don't respect u
20:28:08 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: What about it? I'd have a high school diploma, I could have killed my gen eds at a community college in 4 semesters and then gone to university at seventeen to get a degree
20:28:31 <olsner> Taneb: why are you infamous?
20:28:35 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, I don't understand the education system you describe. Whatever, lets just move on.
20:28:46 <Taneb> Vorpal: when I was new to the channel, I asked some of my friends if they had heard of Elliott
20:28:49 <Bike> he's infamous for not knowing elliott even though they use the same irc channell
20:29:00 <Taneb> One of them had been kicked in the face by someone with the same name
20:29:01 <Bike> dammit elliott you're fucking up my typing!
20:29:10 <olsner> aah, you're infamous for having an imaginary friend called elliott?
20:29:22 <Taneb> No, different elliott
20:29:31 <NihilistDandy> Vorpal: In the US, you're only required to attend high school until the end of your sophomore year, or so. The GED is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Educational_Development
20:29:33 <Taneb> Turns out Facekicker is an Eliott rather than an Elliott
20:30:21 <Taneb> olsner: I'm infamous for mainly being a complete idiot
20:30:32 <Taneb> With OCD-like symptoms
20:30:59 <Vorpal> haven't you developed esolangs?
20:31:04 <Taneb> And unfortunately resembling a particular well-known character from the popular TV series the Big Bang Theory
20:31:09 <Vorpal> then how can you be an idiot
20:31:17 <Vorpal> (well a complete one at any rate)
20:31:21 <Taneb> Vorpal: I sometimes skip backwards for fun
20:31:22 <kmc> fuck that show
20:31:23 <elliott> have you seen some of the languages on the wiki
20:31:29 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, good point
20:31:31 <Bike> also i mostly know northumberland from viking chronicles
20:31:35 <Bike> in which it mostly ends up burnt?
20:31:39 <elliott> Bike: so when are you coming to hexham
20:31:42 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/schema
20:31:47 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: nah, Penny
20:31:54 <Bike> dude is your high school seriously called Queen Elizabeth
20:32:12 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: #esoslash is almost empty!
20:32:20 <Bike> elliott: if i do i'm bringing bioweapons
20:32:26 <Bike> that's terrible
20:32:27 <Taneb> It's named after Queen Elizabeth
20:32:47 <Taneb> Famous for having male internal organs or something
20:33:07 <Bike> a performing arts college.......
20:33:19 <ThatOtherPerson> 22:12:41: <elliott> Taneb: sorry Phantom_Hoover's name is cooler.
20:33:22 <Bike> well, anyway, it has a few hundred less students than my high school did
20:33:26 <Taneb> We have a pretty cool drama department
20:34:16 <elliott> Bike: okay but it'd make the antarctica trip easier to organise
20:34:41 <Bike> i'm bringing the bioweapons so that we can establish our domain on the antarctic plain
20:34:55 <Bike> you know, cackling, demanding a million dollars from the united nations, etc
20:34:55 <Taneb> So we can rescue tswett?
20:36:25 <Bike> "The school was founded in 1599" how the heck is everything in britland so damn old
20:36:41 <Taneb> Bike: check out Hexham Abbey
20:36:45 <NihilistDandy> Not to mention the supercomputer/datacenter possibilities with all that permafrost
20:37:05 <Vorpal> Bike, why is that a surprising age for a school?
20:37:20 <Bike> there's not much permafrost in antarctica
20:37:24 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, kind of far away from everything
20:37:30 <elliott> Bike: do you know when New College, Oxford was founded
20:37:57 <Bike> Vorpal: because i live in a country where no structure, social or physical, has been in operation that long
20:38:06 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the the non-new collage?
20:38:09 <Bike> elliott: that's like, more than twenty years ago
20:38:11 <Vorpal> Presumably there is an old one?
20:38:33 <elliott> Vorpal: well it is actually not known when oxford university was founded
20:38:33 <Vorpal> Bike, I live in a house built in 1907, I consider that kind of modern.
20:38:38 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> oh wow you're right! <-- if you are checking that on the wiki you might want to pay close attention to kerning hthgate
20:38:40 <elliott> EstablishedUnknown, teaching existed since 1096; 916 years ago[1]
20:38:44 <Taneb> Hexham dates back to at least the 600s
20:38:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: It's always a little strange when I go to Europe and see all these places that have been around for hundreds of years
20:38:51 <elliott> Although its exact date of foundation is unclear, there is evidence of teaching as far back as 1096.[1]
20:39:02 <elliott> britain: "we literally don't know how old this shit is"
20:39:08 <ThatOtherPerson> oerjan: I remember when someone was messing around with the kerning on that
20:39:08 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, okay?
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20:39:20 <Bike> isn't the known oldest continously operating university in like, italy
20:39:22 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: that being me
20:39:24 <Bike> or maybe oman, i get confused
20:39:38 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: er don't you live in saudi arabia
20:39:58 <Taneb> In the US they build shopping malls on ancient holy sites. In the UK, we build holy sites
20:40:06 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: I live in Saudi Arabia, am from the States, and generally visit Europe and the States every summer
20:40:12 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, I guess the States would feel weird for me then, what with there being no old buildings.
20:40:17 <Bike> there's a lot of really old stuff there?
20:40:55 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, how did you end up in a country like Saudi?
20:40:57 <Bike> the great mosque of djenne is made of mud and it's still damned impressive
20:41:17 <Bike> oh heh, it's actually like a hundred years old
20:41:19 <Bike> ancient history
20:41:29 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: it's just a side effect of the recent gategate hth
20:41:51 <NihilistDandy> My understanding is that the whole place is just sick with castles. I've been looking into taking one off the poor EU's hands
20:42:00 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: actually, most of the buildings and infrastructure here are quite new
20:42:10 <Bike> well yeah, /most/ of it
20:42:26 <Bike> there aren't a lot of oxford universities in oxford either!
20:42:36 <Taneb> Bike: there's at least two
20:42:53 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, how is it living in a dictatorship like that? That is suppressing women to such an absurd degree.
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20:43:03 <Taneb> More than there are in, eg, Cambridge
20:43:32 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: We're somewhat insulated from the normal culture here, but we experience it a bit
20:43:33 <Taneb> But less than there are Birmingham universities in Birmingham, perhaps
20:43:47 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: clearly you must put a castle IN SPACE
20:44:26 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, huh, you live in some sort of American enclave?
20:45:11 * Bike reflects that not everybody in the world knows people who were diplomats' kids and know this
20:45:16 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: actually, make that _two_ castles joined bottom to bottom of each other, then there will literally be no downside
20:45:21 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, okay, you live in some sort of western enclave then?
20:46:08 <ThatOtherPerson> More or less... Saudis live on camp as well, and I go to school with people from a bunch of Middle Eastern countries, but it's fairly Westernized
20:46:43 <Taneb> Apparently for a while my mum went to school in an Italian school in Pakistan
20:46:51 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, wouldn't it be a bit of an issue for any western female to live there though?
20:47:24 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, hm okay, so they can drive cars and so on?
20:47:25 <Phantom__Hoover> did you see what happened to your voxelnatural number page
20:47:39 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/35f4270b1894273b22f26a2093af5f24/tumblr_mmaimzJYC71r7m1rko1_500.jpg homestuck
20:47:57 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, Still it is rather limiting, a single "camp". Is this a camp of some oil company or such?
20:48:39 <elliott> NihilistDandy: look at the history
20:48:53 <elliott> NihilistDandy: the admin literally re-added it to an "awesome pages" category after someone removed it and then protected it
20:49:17 <Bike> shit, someone call 911
20:49:33 <Bike> ＬＩＴＥＲＡＴＵＲＥ <-- need to find a better way to type in fullwidth
20:49:35 <ThatOtherPerson> One of the ironic things about Saudi culture is that Saudi women probably buy more clothes on average than people in most other places in the world
20:49:40 <Bike> without bothering with setting up a japanese ime or anything
20:49:52 <Bike> or in fact bothering with anything
20:50:00 <Phantom__Hoover> ThatOtherPerson, that is one of those horrific abuses of irony
20:50:00 <NihilistDandy> This and my middle-finger to the gods of Crawl (oh, and that awesome dwarf I was) may be one of my favorite #esoteric moments)
20:50:08 <zzo38> Then there isn't a better way, in that case.
20:50:16 <ThatOtherPerson> My Arabic Culture teacher is Saudi, and I've never seen her wear the same outfit twice.
20:50:27 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: you know what's ironic?
20:50:48 <zzo38> I thought of use of Morse code in Dungeons&Dragons game
20:50:51 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: oh sure but don't get angry at 'literally'
20:51:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, the element tin?
20:51:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, how is that ironic?
20:51:33 <Taneb> How ISN'T it ironic?
20:51:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, it is just a rather useful metal
20:51:45 <Taneb> It's like rain on your wedding day!
20:51:54 <Taneb> Except you don't have to be getting married
20:51:59 <Taneb> And it doesn't have to rain!
20:52:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't get what you are talking about.
20:53:04 <Vorpal> Also soldering tin is awesome.
20:53:27 <Vorpal> Would not be anywhere near the level it is without it
20:53:38 <Vorpal> you would have to use wirewrapping or such
20:54:48 <Taneb> kmc: someone in #haskell has just claimed to miss you
20:54:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> im the center of elliott's existence like the devil is the center of christianity's existence?? <-- well the latter fits with dante, at least
20:54:57 <kmc> that happens
20:55:23 <NihilistDandy> I think the most important point is that they kept my terrible formatting which I think was the result of an offhanded joke of the shitty formatting on their wiki
20:56:31 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, good point
20:56:39 <elliott> @tell kmc testimonials <cmccann> I do wish kmc and ddarius were still around in here though :[
20:56:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, are you log reading
20:56:53 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid id join kind ping run thx time wn
20:57:04 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
20:57:07 <oerjan> Vorpal: yes, against my better judgement
20:57:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, why do you think it is a bad idea?
20:57:29 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Taneb'
20:58:00 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, yes, what else would lambdabot be
20:58:13 <Bike> a greek language learning bot
20:58:22 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, of course
20:58:41 <Bike> taneb's esolang
20:58:54 <Bike> ALSO did you know unicode spells lambda as lamda, imo fuck unicode
20:58:59 <Taneb> Vorpal: have you never seen Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
20:59:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: because it's using up time for other browsing and stuff
20:59:23 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: I was so disappointed when the rest of the language didn't fit with the theme of the name
20:59:34 <Vorpal> Taneb, I remember looking at the esolang in question once
20:59:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: the name and the language were actually developed independently
21:00:00 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: what's... the theme......
21:00:04 <olsner> Bike: apparently in ancient greek it may have been pronounced labda
21:00:04 <lambdabot> elliott said 3m 24s ago: testimonials <cmccann> I do wish kmc and ddarius were still around in here though :[
21:00:12 <kmc> and pi was pronounced pee
21:00:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
21:00:26 <Bike> yes but fuck ancient greek
21:00:53 <NihilistDandy> Taneb: Should I assume the kerning on your userpage is intentional
21:01:00 <Taneb> NihilistDandy: yes
21:01:28 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, what kerning?
21:01:40 * oerjan searches for his nick and skips the rest.
21:01:48 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, I don't see it on User:Taneb on the esolang wiki
21:02:19 <Vorpal> NihilistDandy, don't see any unusual kerning
21:02:20 <Sgeo> letter-spacing: -0.08em
21:02:44 <Vorpal> it looks like m in the font my computer uses
21:02:48 <Sgeo> Nathan van Doo<span style="letter-spacing: -0.1em;">rn</span>
21:03:04 <Bike> Vorpal: http://fuckyeahkeming.com/
21:03:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:03:27 <olsner> oh, now I see that it doesn't actually say doom
21:03:28 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: The requested website is blocked as it falls under a blocked category.
21:03:54 -!- jix has joined.
21:04:06 <ThatOtherPerson> The old censorship software used to say why stuff was blocked
21:04:11 <Sgeo> Sometimes, if there's just a word on a line, the word will be s p a c e d like that
21:04:18 <Sgeo> Other things do it too
21:04:37 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: probably because it's on tumblr
21:05:01 <Sgeo> hpaste is blocked at work
21:05:14 <Bike> oh, then... that... beats me!
21:07:06 <Vorpal> <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: The requested website is blocked as it falls under a blocked category. <-- Saudi blockage or what?
21:07:36 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: actually, specific to Saudi Aramco, but Saudi does have their own Great Firewall
21:07:38 <Bike> you really need to get in on this kerning dude this shit is choice
21:08:42 <Vorpal> I'm glad I live in Sweden, where I can get relatively free internet. (I believe there is some DNS blocking of child porn going on though)
21:09:23 <ThatOtherPerson> http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/43/train_loop_clothoid.png <-- have any of you been to the Burj Khalifa? It is really tall. (understatement)
21:10:05 <Bike> dubai seems like a nice place to go. if you're rich
21:10:19 <NihilistDandy> ThatOtherPerson: What on earth is that what if about?
21:10:42 <tswett> So remind me what my dilemma is, again?
21:10:43 <ThatOtherPerson> "Could a high-speed train run through a vertical loop, like a rollercoaster, with the passengers staying comfortable?"
21:11:03 <tswett> Like, I'm supposedly stranded in Antarctica because neither Australia nor Finland considers me a citizen, even though I've resided in both for many years, right?
21:11:24 <tswett> I was born in Australia and went to Finland for university or whatever.
21:11:33 <kmc> speaking of tall buildings, they finished the Freedom Tower
21:11:48 <olsner> tswett: I mostly remember that it was really complicated
21:12:00 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, no you went to university in the university of finland-australia
21:12:22 <kmc> it's only 65% as tall as the Burj Khalifa though
21:12:26 <tswett> Ah, right, the Finland–Australia Cosovereign Exclave, located in Asia.
21:12:38 <tswett> ThatOtherPerson: fan fiction.
21:13:04 <kmc> the burj khalifa is surruonded by much much much smaller buildings isn't it
21:13:22 <Bike> oh it's called the 'one world trade center' officially
21:13:25 <Bike> that's way less cheesy
21:13:32 <kmc> yeah they ditched the "freedom tower" name a while back
21:13:37 <kmc> but it's still 1,776 ft tall
21:13:49 <elliott> it's weird how the numbers come before the names
21:13:59 <Bike> elliott: it's like books of the bible
21:14:00 <elliott> they say it's one world trade center but there's actually two!!
21:14:06 <kmc> one canada square
21:14:15 <olsner> it looks very shiny on the pictures
21:14:17 <Bike> elliott: there's like nine...
21:14:24 <kmc> i mainly call it the Freedom Tower because when I lived near the construction site I called it the Freedom Hole
21:14:28 <elliott> there's like at least 7 right
21:14:37 <elliott> i don't know about your america and your buildings!
21:14:42 <Bike> it went up to seven i guess
21:15:04 <kmc> the new 7 WTC opened in 2006
21:15:23 <tswett> Well, you couldn't call it World Trade Center One, because there's only one World Trade Center.
21:15:28 <elliott> imo some buildings are just too big
21:15:34 <kmc> there's a world trade center in boston
21:15:38 <tswett> One World Trade Center is one of the buildings of the one World Trade Center.
21:15:41 <Bike> there's a wtc in portland too
21:15:43 <tswett> kmc: well, that one doesn't count.
21:15:47 <tswett> Bike: well, that one doesn't count, either.
21:15:48 <Bike> it's kind of a common name?
21:15:52 <olsner> there's a world trade center in stockholm too, it's completely unremarkable iirc
21:15:54 <elliott> world trade centre, hexham
21:15:55 <Bike> like.. trade, in the world
21:15:58 <Bike> need centers for it
21:15:58 <kmc> also there's a world financial center down the street from the world trade center
21:16:03 <tswett> olsner: well, that one doesn't count, either! elliott: nor that one!
21:16:19 <tswett> Anyway, I would assume that there's nobody assigning ID numbers to each individual World Trade Cente.r
21:16:21 <Bike> more like a world trade decenter at this point
21:16:39 <Taneb> elliott: I think they're opening that where the Greggs that closed used to be
21:16:52 <tswett> Why do we need a World Trade Center, anyway? Does world trade really need a center?
21:17:02 <Bike> there's a lot of it
21:17:06 <elliott> Taneb: the greggs closed[3~/?????
21:17:09 <Bike> gotta coordinate that shit, do a bit of central planning
21:17:17 <elliott> tswett: it's where the illuminati meet
21:17:24 <Bike> that's why it's ONE WORLD man
21:17:27 <Bike> ONE WORLD ORDER!!!
21:17:27 <Taneb> elliott: the one by the market place
21:17:34 <tswett> Bike: I suppose that makes sense. So this is where all the leaders of the world get together and make world laws.
21:17:45 <elliott> also how long ago was this (can you tell i don't get out much)
21:17:51 <Bike> tswett: not up on politics are you
21:18:00 <Bike> where'd you think they made world laws at, the UN? bull shit
21:18:06 <Taneb> The other Greggs got renevated and now is stupid fancy
21:18:12 <tswett> The decisions of the United Nations Security Council are binding on the entire world.
21:18:16 <tswett> Except for Vatican City and Taiwan.
21:18:26 <Bike> fsvo 'binding'
21:18:36 <Bike> also there are a lot more non-member-states than that.
21:18:55 <ThatOtherPerson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain_World_Trade_Center <-- I've driven past that a million times and I had no idea that it was a World Trade Center
21:19:02 <elliott> can you imagine actually like
21:19:06 <elliott> doing things high up in the wtc towers
21:19:11 <elliott> imo i'd be too scared of heights
21:19:12 <Taneb> For example, The Independent People's Democratic Republic of Hexham
21:19:21 <Bike> probably you wouldn't have a window seat elliott
21:19:35 <elliott> Bike: you can probably feel being that high up!!!
21:19:36 <Bike> you're not really an 'executive type'
21:19:48 <Bike> ...have you never been in a tall building before, like on vacation or somethingi
21:20:03 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, and i mean there wouldn't be much gravity that high
21:20:27 <elliott> probably the highest up I've been is like... man idek
21:20:39 <elliott> aeroplanes aren't buildings!!!!
21:20:53 <Bike> aeroplanes are you for real
21:21:20 <FireFly> Our WTC is.. disappointing :(
21:21:24 <FireFly> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_Trade_Center,_Stockholm.jpg
21:21:28 <Phantom__Hoover> when you're in an aeroplane the only thing keeping gravity off you is wings which don't even flap
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21:21:32 <Bike> FireFly: yeah same
21:21:46 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: they flap just really quickly so you can't see
21:22:03 <Bike> you know they actually have ornithopters now
21:22:15 <Vorpal> FireFly, what does a WTC actually do? I wasn't aware of that it was a "thing" until today. I just thought it was a name of some former buildings in the US.
21:22:31 <tswett> Ah, you see, the wings of a bird flap back and forth.
21:22:38 <tswett> Whereas the wings of an airplane flap *around*.
21:22:50 <FireFly> Vorpal: no clue. The one in Stockholm just hosts a bunch of offices for random companies
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21:22:56 <tswett> So, you know the World Trade Center in New York?
21:22:59 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, right, but what do they do for the world trade
21:23:07 <Bike> capitalism things
21:23:12 <Vorpal> tswett, yes, destroyed in 2001
21:23:14 <tswett> The one that was the target of a terrorist attack a while back?
21:23:16 <Bike> banking, getting money
21:23:25 <tswett> I mean, technically not all of it was destroyed. I think.
21:23:28 <Bike> wearing expensive suits
21:23:46 <tswett> But anyway, were their tenants restricted to things related to world trade?
21:24:00 <Bike> office space was probably expensive
21:24:03 <tswett> Or could, like, just anyone rent out a chunk of the World Trade Center?
21:24:30 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, right...
21:24:46 <Bike> tswett: well there was like, zoning
21:24:57 <Bike> you couldn't open a fish market in the twelfth floor
21:25:07 <Vorpal> tswett, I'm not sure there is much world trade going on yet? You can't trade in worlds afaik.
21:25:13 <elliott> probably the only businesses that could afford being in WTC would be in world trade
21:25:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: " The WTCA is an unofficial umbrella trade association that unites corporations and government agencies in international trade"
21:25:26 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, right
21:25:32 <tswett> Wait, the World Trade Center was leased?
21:25:37 <Bike> Initially conceived as a complex dedicated to companies and organizations directly taking part in "world trade", they at first failed to attract the expected clientele. During the early years, various governmental organizations became key tenants of the World Trade Center including the State of New York. It was not until the 1980s that the city's perilous financial state eased, after which an increasing number of private companies—mostly fi
21:25:48 <tswett> Like... its owners leased the entire complex to another company?
21:25:50 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, but what do they actually do to promote the international trade
21:25:53 <Bike> tswett: parts of the complex
21:26:02 <Bike> —mostly financial firms tied to Wall Street—became tenants.
21:26:14 <Bike> During the 1990s, approximately 500 companies had offices in the complex including many financial companies such as Morgan Stanley, Aon Corporation, Salomon Brothers and the Port Authority itself.
21:26:22 <Bike> (Port Authority could be a band name)
21:26:28 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, that do what
21:26:46 <tswett> My favorite imaginary band name at the moment, I think, is Dancer Outside Wall.
21:27:09 <Vorpal> my channel user list is out of sync I think. I just noticed ThatOtherPerson is not in it
21:27:30 <Vorpal> and why does Gregor have voice?
21:27:35 -!- augur has joined.
21:27:37 <tswett> I had a desynced channel user list in another channel today, but ThatOtherPerson is present in mine.
21:27:39 <Bike> what a stupid question
21:27:46 <Taneb> Vorpal: because Gregor is.
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21:29:49 <elliott> Bike: isn't port authority already a band name
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21:31:01 <elliott> googling suggests there is a band called "Port Authority Band"
21:31:04 <Bike> and also an album my marco Polo
21:31:10 <Bike> *by marco polo
21:31:17 <elliott> and also http://portauthority.bandcamp.com/
21:31:50 <Bike> i like the mask
21:32:06 <tswett> "Access to the roof was controlled from the WTC Operations Control Center (OCC) located in the B1 level of 2 WTC." How did they do that?
21:32:14 <tswett> Cameras and remotely operated locks?
21:32:49 <Bike> or you had to go in there and ask for a key?
21:33:20 <NihilistDandy> I doubt "roof of the World Trade Center" and "disgusting gas station bathroom" have the same security policy
21:33:25 <tswett> "Hey Bob, did you get a key from Operations?" "Shit."
21:33:46 <Bike> or it just had a passcode or something
21:33:55 <Vorpal> and we all know it was an inside job, right? ;P
21:34:01 <Bike> NihilistDandy: why? what the heck is on the roof
21:34:08 <Bike> what are you gonna do, punch a lightning rod?
21:34:26 <Vorpal> Bike, communication antennas
21:34:36 <tswett> Huh. The World Trade Center has its own ZIP code.
21:35:26 <NihilistDandy> It's probably just that there's only one elevator up to the top, and it happened to be in that building
21:35:29 <tswett> "By the end of 2006, the number of items sent to 10048 had decreased to around 300 items daily,[6] mostly sent from businesses and organizations that had not yet updated their bulk mailing lists."
21:43:25 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Petit#World_Trade_Center_walk
21:43:40 <kmc> you should all watch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_on_Wire
21:44:13 <elliott> kmc: ok no I don't need panic attacks about that
21:44:34 <elliott> imo you should have some cushioning on the ground in case you fall
21:44:43 <kmc> guy with a trampoline
21:44:55 <Taneb> Wasn't there like a video game about that
21:45:18 <Bike> "Provoked by his taunting behaviour while on the wire, police handcuffed him behind his back and roughly pushed him down a flight of stairs. This he later described as the most dangerous part of the stunt." nice guy
21:46:00 <ThatOtherPerson> So you can say 26 feet and the browser could show it as 8 metres
21:46:06 <olsner> maybe html doesn't need more tags
21:46:17 <Bike> maybe it does olsner, maybe it does
21:46:49 <elliott> The Port Authority allowed Petit to conduct the interviews, which he used as a pretext to make more observations.
21:47:06 <Taneb> Maybe HTML needs all the tags
21:47:33 <kmc> port authority trans-hudson
21:47:46 <olsner> maybe html should allow whatever tags you try to use, and not have so much to say about how they're presented
21:47:59 <impomatic> HTML need more methods to mark up microdata :-)
21:48:03 <Bike> html doesn't say anything about presentation "in" "theory"
21:48:29 <elliott> kmc: fuck he lied down on the fucking wire
21:48:45 <elliott> worst person i hate him jesus
21:48:46 <FreeFull> Once upon a time, there was no CSS
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22:00:51 <Sgeo> Will b and i etc. ever be removed?
22:01:14 <elliott> <b> and <i> were undeprecated
22:01:40 <Bike> someone explained to me once why <b> and <i> didn't constitute presentation but i forgot
22:02:25 <elliott> oh i guess they weren't deprecated in html4 either
22:03:03 <Taneb> <i> is for when you're sort of naming a work
22:03:15 <Bike> NihilistDandy: i think that was involved yeah
22:03:25 <Taneb> Like, "Leonardo DiCaprio was in <i>Inception</i> and <i>Romeo and Juliet</i>"
22:03:58 <NihilistDandy> And equally I suppose <b> is semantically distinct from <strong>, though that case is harder to argue
22:04:00 <elliott> Taneb: it's not just for that
22:06:47 <FireFly> <b> and <i> are now defined differently than <em> and <strong>, in HTML5
22:07:07 <FireFly> http://html5doctor.com/i-b-em-strong-element/
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22:09:05 <Bike> Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese. terrifying
22:09:32 <ThatOtherPerson> "stylistically offset" <-- isn't that basically presentational?
22:09:56 <Bike> shhhhhhh don't ruin the magic.
22:13:09 <zzo38> You can avoid these problems with HTML by using plain text format, is one thing.
22:14:14 <zzo38> Even when you do use HTML, you can avoid what they keep changing and stuff by using only what is necessary; so, don't use CSS, don't use <VIDEO> unless you need videos for some reason (text is usually better), etc
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22:16:03 <Bike> knuth also uses tex, a notorious bloatware
22:16:27 <kmc> software that has features i want is pragmatic
22:16:32 <kmc> software that has features you want is bloated
22:16:49 <Bike> this is why everybody should use ascii as god intended
22:17:15 <kmc> yeah, if you use arabic or devanagari script, you can just spell out huge letters in ascii art
22:17:27 <Bike> gamefaqs is basically how the internet should be
22:17:27 <zzo38> Or at least, if you do use CSS when it is not needed, don't use it to change things to make it fail to work properly without CSS, if such a thing is possible. Sometimes it might not be.
22:17:34 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: another black mark on him!
22:17:47 <zzo38> ThatOtherPerson: Knuth made TeX, which I think works better than the modern stuff.
22:18:12 <zzo38> You can use different character encodings when you need, but mainly ASCII should be used when the others aren't needed.
22:18:25 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
22:18:43 <Bike> ascii art it is then
22:20:20 <zzo38> Using ASCII art for everything is inefficient; a document mainly written in Arabic should use the Arabic encodings instead.
22:20:38 <Bike> uh multiple encodings? that sounds inefficient!!
22:21:13 <Taneb> zzo38: what if you wanted to switch between Arabic, English, Greek, and Russian
22:22:28 <Bike> Not really, because Solomonic devil summoning symbols aren't in Unicode.
22:22:51 <zzo38> Obviously it depends what programs you are using. With HTML you can use Unicode, but with TeX you can use different fonts instead, which might work better in a few cases. But, yes, Unicode doesn't have everything, is also one problem with its use.
22:23:14 <zzo38> The way it is done in TeX does allow you do just include whatever font you want, and so do some other programs can do this too.
22:23:15 <kmc> it's the universal code
22:23:17 <Bike> Yes, it's a flaw of many major encoding formats that they don't include the Lesser Key of Solomon.
22:23:20 <kmc> it's the universal character set
22:23:24 <zzo38> Unicode is full of dumb stuff though.
22:23:33 <kmc> the world is full of dumb stuff
22:23:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, you might hate Cablevision -- the new site will rely on having a fairly modern browser
22:23:47 <zzo38> At least some things are included in ConScripts, but not everything.
22:23:48 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buer.gif pretty cool guy
22:23:57 <pikhq> The domain is fairly dumb.
22:24:13 <pikhq> If you want round-trip compatibility you pretty much have to do most of the stupid bits of Unicode.
22:24:23 <Bike> kmc: You know what's not in unicode? That picture. Major flaw, imo.
22:24:38 <kmc> it should be a combining character that can go around any other character
22:24:48 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Can you view that picture in your oil compound?
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22:25:08 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Can you summon devils in your oil compound?
22:25:28 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: I've never tried. It would probably be more ethnic to try to summon Djinn.
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22:25:56 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, have you tried that then?
22:26:22 <Bike> I think the Islamic demonology tradition is based on the same sort of stuff the European one is, so it's worth a shot.
22:26:23 <ThatOtherPerson> no, I think you need an old fashioned lamp or gold ring or something
22:26:47 <Bike> IKEA's pretty satanic, yeah.
22:27:33 <zzo38> The programs I write mostly doesn't use Unicode, because I don't like Unicode.
22:27:52 <Bike> Oh, I didn't know djinn were actually canonical.
22:28:33 <ThatOtherPerson> btw: cut your fingernails or evil Djinn come and live in them
22:28:43 <Bike> Whoa whoa whoa, iblis wasn't an angel?
22:28:47 <Bike> Man I know shit about Islam.
22:29:29 <ThatOtherPerson> You're probably confusing your knowledge of Christianity with your knowledge of Islam
22:29:55 <Bike> Well, I know the Islamic story about Satan. I just thought he was an angel.
22:30:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:30:33 <Bike> "A few traditions (hadith), divide jinn into three classes: those who have wings and fly in the air, those who resemble snakes and dogs, and those who travel about ceaselessly." cool
22:30:37 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: are you going to make the hajj while you're in .sa
22:30:38 <pikhq> At least, in modern-day extracanonical belief. :P
22:30:41 <Vorpal> I love how "loud" ssh is when a host key changes:
22:30:43 <Vorpal> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
22:30:43 <Vorpal> @ WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @
22:30:43 <Vorpal> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
22:30:43 <Vorpal> IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY!
22:31:36 <pikhq> It's rather surreal that there's a "Muslims ONLY" exit.
22:31:48 <pikhq> To a freaking city no less.
22:31:56 -!- kmc has set topic: May the Firth of Forth be with you! | IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:31:57 <olsner> Vorpal: it has to be, otherwise you'd just read the "run this command to make it work again" bit
22:31:58 <NihilistDandy> If you're not willing to make life-changing spiritual decisions at the whims of people on IRC, I just don't know what to do with you
22:32:40 <zzo38> Such as, the VGM file format uses UTF-16 to encode the title and so on of the music. My program VGMCK will read UTF-8, but the only thing it ever does with it is converting into UTF-16; it doesn't care which are spaces, which are wide, controls, etc. The rest of VGMCK runs in ASCII.
22:32:50 <Vorpal> olsner, in this case, it was just because I was setting up a live usb distro from that computer though
22:33:05 <Vorpal> and were testing if ssh worked
22:34:00 <Bike> kmc: all by itself it sounds like a jerkcity line
22:34:12 <Vorpal> my god, I have 177 entries in my known_hosts file
22:34:20 <Vorpal> I wasn't aware I sshed to that many hosts.
22:36:43 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Christian_Bypass.jpg
22:40:53 <olsner> oh, the official transliteration is makkah rather than mecca, makkah sounds like swedish for sandwich
22:42:44 <Bike> romanization of arabic is basically terrible, if you haven't noticed
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22:54:07 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: important answer
22:54:12 <Phantom__Hoover> which of the 4 things oko claims about you on your userpage is true
22:54:39 <Taneb> First of all, there are 5 things
22:55:02 <Taneb> Second of all, I'm having a crisis, it may be none of them
22:56:25 <Taneb> One of them is still true
22:56:42 <olsner> I think the "only one of these is true" is the one that is true
22:57:07 <Taneb> olsner: no comment
22:58:38 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: it's the fourth one
22:58:54 <Taneb> I'm a mild-mannered reporter who gets changed in phone booths
22:59:39 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: no, I only made one awesome palindrome
22:59:44 <Taneb> "E, esoteric, ire to see"
23:00:14 <Taneb> Took me about 3 hours, too
23:00:14 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom__Hoover: well there's a number of non-superhumans who do that sort of thing and don't get arrested
23:01:05 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: it's talking about how the (real) programming language E is esoteric and makes people who look at it angry
23:02:10 <Taneb> Most things I say do.
23:02:34 <Taneb> `quote of chocolate
23:02:37 <HackEgo> 511) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want. \ 653) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can'
23:02:48 <Taneb> `pastequotes Taneb
23:02:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30406
23:03:09 <HackEgo> 946) <Taneb> I'm a story about the prohibition of chocolate
23:03:58 <ThatOtherPerson> The dedicated disciples of Doorn all dance when they divine the door of Doom
23:04:10 <elliott> i had to check that that wasn't a palindrome
23:04:12 <Taneb> That's... not a palindrome
23:04:23 <Taneb> It's rather alliterative, though
23:04:39 <Taneb> elliott: my condolences
23:05:13 <FireFly> I'd like to see a palindrome that contains the word 'chocolate'
23:05:21 <Phantom__Hoover> don't let your mastery of the palindrome define you, Taneb!
23:05:43 <HackEgo> 653) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can.
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23:07:15 <Taneb> Da chocolate, et al. OC, oh cad.
23:07:59 <Taneb> FireFly did not say it had to be a particularly good one
23:08:17 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:08:18 <Jafet> is a palindrome when preceded by its reverse
23:09:12 <Taneb> Trivia: "isn't a palindrome when preceded by its reverse" is a palindrome when preceded by its reverse
23:09:34 <FireFly> That was quite a forced palindrome
23:09:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:09:56 <Taneb> FireFly: I was working with a time limit!
23:10:07 <Taneb> And it's a proof of concept
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23:17:50 <ThatOtherPerson> http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-26/?action=preview&uid=18411
23:21:57 <Phantom___Hoover> it is annoyingly easy to die to a rectangle that spawns right on top of you
23:24:32 <elliott> i like how it's impossible to tell which square is yours
23:25:37 <ThatOtherPerson> This was more mondrian but also very much not a game: http://jsfiddle.net/Mf3VE/1/embedded/result/
23:26:16 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom___Hoover: there seems to be a bug where you will die randomly at some point if you have died previously...
23:27:07 <ThatOtherPerson> We sorta didn't get it playable until an hour or two before the jam was over
23:29:25 <ThatOtherPerson> But it was both of our's first game, so we (maybe) have hope for becoming better at the whole gamemaking thing
23:32:57 <ThatOtherPerson> When it comes to making awful limericks, that is something I can do.
23:38:13 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb The dedicated disciples of Doorn / Were once in a pickle quite torn; / Which quality of Nathan / Would cause the greatest sensation? / And vastly his reputation adorn?
23:39:02 <NihilistDandy> I would think it would be like a long o, but maybe the Dutch are weird
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23:46:57 <olsner> is it dutch where double vowels are short?
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23:51:53 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: nice
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23:56:47 <elliott> kmc: kmc is a good nick btw, you are lucky to have good initials
23:58:45 <FireFly> elliott: have you considered using the nick 'eh'?
00:00:15 <kmc> they aren't my 'real initials'
00:00:16 <kmc> but thanks
00:04:45 <elliott> i mean nobody complains about Richard M'Stallman's choice of nick either
00:06:40 <elliott> no i definitely got it right
00:06:54 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
00:06:59 <shachaf> elliott: rms stands for raymond m smullyan hth
00:09:02 <Bike> arnold smullyan smullyan
00:11:09 <ThatOtherPerson> wait why the quotes? Does that mean he is only a nominally real person?
00:12:11 -!- tswett has changed nick to ts.
00:12:17 <ts> Aw, this nickname is registered.
00:12:19 -!- ts has changed nick to tswett.
00:12:43 <tswett> So, about that World Trade Center.
00:13:02 <tswett> Apparently the electrical service it received was 13,800 volts.
00:13:04 <Bike> its initials are far inferior to kmc's, imo
00:13:14 <tswett> That's kind of a lot of voltage.
00:13:30 <shachaf> kmc's initials are btm13, right?
00:13:37 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
00:13:41 -!- ThatOtherPerson has changed nick to wtc.
00:13:45 <Bike> it's kind of a lot of building!
00:13:45 <wtc> wow really
00:14:05 <wtc> it's registered
00:14:10 -!- wtc has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
00:14:53 <kmc> tswett: that seems like a standard distribution voltage
00:15:05 <kmc> basically just means it was big enough to have its own substation
00:15:20 <tswett> Is it a standard distribution voltage?
00:16:13 <tswett> So this says that a refrigeration plant in the North Tower provided air conditioning to the entire WTC complex.
00:16:44 <tswett> So I guess there were just ducts, presumably underground, carrying the conditioned air to the other buildings?
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00:16:51 <kmc> or chilled water
00:17:11 <pikhq> Did they use radiator systems?
00:17:20 <kmc> it's common for a campus of buildings to have central heating, cooling, and power systems linked to the buildings by tunnels
00:17:33 <tswett> Hm. Would chilled water really work for air conditioning?
00:17:45 <tswett> Doesn't A/C dry the air as well as cooling it?
00:18:01 <pikhq> tswett: That's just a side effect of how the heat pumps work.
00:18:03 <olsner> I think water is what district heating and cooling usually use
00:18:10 <pikhq> It's not a *necessary* thing.
00:18:13 <kmc> it's not always desirable either
00:18:25 <pikhq> Though it is beneficial in some climates.
00:18:32 <kmc> we had a lot of fun running around in the steam tunnels at Caltech
00:18:42 <kmc> drawing maps, finding locked doors and the keys that would open them
00:18:51 <olsner> I guess you might want cold in something with a lower freezing point though
00:18:57 <tswett> Steam tunnels are fun because if you break open a steam pipe, you die.
00:18:58 <Phantom__Hoover> did you just go to university in a fucking adventure playground
00:19:04 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: basically
00:19:13 <pikhq> In other climates, you can actually use evaporative cooling and *increase* the humidity. ... Thereby increasing comfort.
00:19:16 <elliott> i want to go to caltech just from hearing kmc talk about his antics
00:19:16 <kmc> tswett: they're not very easy to break though
00:19:24 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
00:19:24 <kmc> elliott: i hear it sucks now, they got an Evil Dean who hates fun
00:19:57 <elliott> i cannot conceive of a scenario where i would actually end up at caltech anyway so that is okay!
00:20:05 <Bike> kmc: is it true that real human beings call that 'vadding'
00:20:15 <Phantom___Hoover> i keep forgetting how in america you actually have to cool buildings down
00:20:40 <kmc> they disbanded the satanist house :/
00:20:56 <olsner> actually you need a bit of A/C pretty much everywhere
00:21:43 <tswett> Phantom___Hoover: so how hot does it get in the middle of your summer?
00:21:47 <shachaf> Phantom___Hoover: that's only in parts of america
00:21:57 <kmc> 'vadding'?
00:22:13 <Bike> kmc: for 'roof and tunnel hacking'
00:22:21 <tswett> McMurdo Station, of course.
00:22:47 <kmc> Bike: i haven't heard it
00:23:15 <kmc> we had chilled water pipes in the tunnels but I don't know if they were used for cooling buildings or just for lab purposes
00:23:18 <kmc> probably both though
00:23:25 <tswett> Edinburgh seems pretty mild.
00:23:32 <kmc> the biology buildings had these gigantic ventillation caverns that were used to keep a net flow of air into the building
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00:23:42 <kmc> so that if the ebola virus got out they could contain it
00:25:27 <olsner> hmm, a net flow into the building should be constantly increasing the pressure inside
00:25:32 <tswett> Sure enough, Edinburghan summers are cooler than San Franciscan ones.
00:25:38 <kmc> yeah I don't know how it works tbh
00:25:43 <kmc> maybe they had a filtered outflow somewhere
00:25:44 <Bike> what, like negative pressure?
00:25:49 <olsner> maybe the building just expands to keep the pressure sane
00:26:29 <olsner> I'm not sure that's the right direction of pressure though
00:26:31 <olsner> if someone opens a window the ebola gets out and that's the opposite of what you want
00:26:55 <Bike> just to confuse you more, there are suits that work like those buildings
00:26:57 <olsner> the building should be pulling air in and through the ebola filter
00:27:22 <tswett> Obviously they just chill the air until it becomes a liquid, thereby reducing its pressure.
00:27:37 <tswett> And then they probably launch it into space.
00:27:43 <Bike> hm, what's caltech's BSL rating
00:28:50 <Bike> nope, no BSL-4 in cali
00:28:54 <Bike> you're lying to me kmc
00:29:19 <Bike> where the ebola!!!
00:30:03 <elliott> imo it's cool that we have like eradicated shit just lying around places
00:30:05 <kmc> ok i'm pretty sure they didn't actually have ebola
00:30:18 <kmc> the rest is from rumor I was told, that I never bothered to validate
00:30:22 <Bike> elliott: the smallpox thing is just terrible
00:30:31 <kmc> there was a website with a ton of great photos of the steam tunnels but it's gone now :( :( :( :(
00:30:36 <elliott> just in case anyone ever needs some smallpox
00:30:48 <kmc> there was 80 years worth of murals and bad angsty poetry down there
00:30:49 <Bike> tswett: there's a US facility and a russian facility that have smallpox samples for no good reason
00:31:01 <tswett> Yeah, that does sound kind of silly.
00:31:09 <olsner> how hard is it for a biology student to "accidentally" construct some ebola in the lab nowadays?
00:31:11 <Bike> the russian facility is called VECTOR and this is apparently some kind of abbreviation? like, lol
00:31:18 <Bike> olsner: 'construct'?
00:31:26 <tswett> Have they sequenced smallpox, and if so, have they released the code online?
00:31:42 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
00:31:47 <Bike> they have sequenced it, and i think you can get it online maybe
00:31:56 <olsner> VECTOR sounds a bit like a bond villain biolab
00:32:18 <olsner> although it would be something like BEKTOP
00:32:35 <Bike> soviet facilities accidentally killed a few hundred of their employees with various diseases at points too
00:33:18 <tswett> Hm, what was that one game called.
00:33:20 <Bike> ah right with anthrax
00:33:36 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:33:48 <tswett> I think it was KO<something>CTPYKTOP.
00:34:08 <tswett> KOHCTPYKTOP, apparently.
00:34:35 <elliott> Bike: imo they have polio samples in case they ever want to kill the other
00:34:39 <Bike> "In KOHCTPYKTOP: Engineer of the People, you play as an engineer working in a semiconductor factory designing integrated circuits based on specifications provided to you. What does it have to do with communism? You’ll have to play to find out!" k
00:34:47 <elliott> it's like both nations having a bunch of nukes so they can rest in peace
00:35:18 <Bike> except with your skin being covered in painful scabs instead of having your face melt off, yes
00:35:51 <tswett> Did they eradicate polio? HTH.
00:36:15 <Bike> the only two eradicated diseases are smallpox and rinderpest.
00:36:43 <Bike> a disease of cattle.
00:36:43 <pikhq> ThatOtherPerson: Cattle disease.
00:36:50 <elliott> i think it's pretty great we managed to kill all the smallpoxes
00:36:51 <tswett> Do they also have rinderpest samples lying around somewhere?
00:37:02 <Bike> Hm, I don't think so.
00:37:07 <elliott> The Hindu goddess Shitala was worshipped to prevent or cure smallpox.
00:37:13 <ThatOtherPerson> It's... nice that they got rid of that disease for the cows.
00:37:19 <olsner> "To kill a people, kill their cows.", as they say
00:37:20 <Bike> It was only destroyed in 2011.
00:37:54 <pikhq> It was eradicated due to being a big problem..
00:38:04 <pikhq> Like, there was talk of using it for bioweapons.
00:38:06 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Sometimes people need cows to live.
00:38:42 <tswett> So are there, like, multiple different prion diseases? Caused by different prions?
00:38:59 <tswett> Do all of them mainly affect the nervous system?
00:39:15 <kmc> if you want polio you can just go to pakistan or nigeria
00:39:18 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Necessarily need, sometimes.
00:39:40 <tswett> Is that just a massive coincidence or what...
00:39:45 <tswett> Maybe all the prions are homologous or something.
00:39:49 <elliott> kmc: i've always wanted polio
00:40:48 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, might be a particular feature of the nervous system rather than the prions
00:40:56 <pikhq> Though looking at it, apparently there are documented fungus prion diseases.
00:41:20 <Bike> It's probably like how many if not most useful toxins are neurotoxins of some sort.
00:41:24 <tswett> In fungi, prion diseases cause the organism to grow a brain, which then ceases to function.
00:41:33 <Bike> Plus other diseases don't hit the brain so much, because of the barrier.
00:41:34 <pikhq> No. They just cause other issues.
00:41:54 <pikhq> Just much less bad than vertebrate prion diseases.
00:42:42 * Sgeo kept reading prison instread of prion
00:42:46 <tswett> "All known mammalian prion diseases are caused by the so-called prion protein, PrP."
00:42:58 <olsner> and "All known prion diseases affect the structure of the brain or other neural tissue"
00:43:01 <kmc> i read that as PHP
00:43:06 <pikhq> So, it's a *single protein* misfolding? Well that'd do it.
00:43:11 <tswett> So... does it misfold in multiple different self-propagating ways?
00:43:18 <kmc> and I was not surprised to read that PHP was responsible for mad cow disease
00:43:22 <pikhq> tswett: Apparently.
00:43:43 <tswett> "The precise structure of the prion is not known, though they can be formed by combining PrPC, polyadenylic acid, and lipids in a Protein Misfolding Cyclic Amplification (PMCA) reaction."
00:43:45 <Bike> tertiary protein structure is pretty fucked so
00:43:47 <tswett> That's a good idea. We should do that.
00:44:04 <ThatOtherPerson> I used to think PHP was great. Then I wrote a website in it.
00:44:42 <Sgeo> I used to think PHP was 'the way' to do stuff on the web
00:44:48 <Sgeo> As in, everyone used PHP
00:44:55 <Bike> the one true P
00:44:59 <Sgeo> I have this weird mentality of wanting to know what, actually, is used
00:45:18 <Bike> Sgeo: mostly visual basic, some opencobol
00:45:20 <Sgeo> What is 'the language' for desktop applications
00:45:37 <tswett> Objective-C, of course.
00:45:45 <tswett> At least, I think that's what Apple wants people to use for the Mac? I'm not sure.
00:45:53 <tswett> Does Objective-C have advantages over C++?
00:46:07 <tswett> By the way, the second worst thing ever is Objective-C++.
00:46:32 <tswett> Objective-C is C with objects. C++ is C with objects. Objective-C++ is C with objects, with a second, completely incompatible type of objects.
00:46:40 <elliott> C++ isn't C with objects at all
00:46:43 <tswett> The worst thing ever is, of course, Hitler.
00:47:11 <tswett> All right. Objective-C is C with objects. C++ is C with lots of stuff, including objects. Objective-C++ is C with lots of stuff, including objects, and objects.
00:47:17 <Bike> Where's xiuquan in this scale
00:47:30 <tswett> ThatOtherPerson: see, I said that Objective-C++ is not as bad as Hitler.
00:47:38 <tswett> That means I automatically *win* the argument.
00:48:39 <kmc> someone in ##crypto was complaining that it's hard to find good programmers in .no
00:48:42 <Bike> well he won it anyway
00:48:44 <kmc> they aren't part of the EU
00:48:57 <kmc> i don't know if it's hard to get work visas for EU people
00:49:59 <shachaf> "Citizens of EU/EEA countries (including the UK) do not need a work permit in Norway"
00:50:09 <shachaf> http://www.norway.org.uk/Embassy/faq/moving/
00:51:17 <kmc> it's two object systems in the same language, for sure
00:51:25 <kmc> since the ObjC and C++ object systems are very different
00:51:34 <kmc> yes, it's Not Recommended
00:51:39 <Bike> clearly we need message passing in C++
00:51:46 <kmc> i'm sure boost has a library for that
00:51:48 <Sgeo> Well, other languages have multiple object systems, but not included standard
00:51:48 <olsner> my impression is that norway is boring, cold and expensive, while not actually paying *that* much considering how expensive it is (speaking of programmers in norway)
00:52:01 <Sgeo> (Well, Tcl 8.6 now has a standard OO system)
00:52:01 <zzo38> Well, I think GCC does support Objective-C and Objective-C++, so you can still write program in it and make it work, but for many things C is good enough.
00:52:02 <elliott> olsner: and what is sweden
00:52:15 <Bike> says something about clos, goes back to reading about diem being a shithead
00:52:23 <zzo38> I suppose you might need Objective-C++ if you somehow need to use all of those features mixed up?
00:52:24 <olsner> elliott: less boring, less cold and less expensive than norway
00:52:42 <olsner> how much less can be argued
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00:53:31 <tswett> I wonder what the smallest self-powered flying machine is.
00:53:43 <olsner> elliott: insufficient data
00:54:04 <Bike> There are dragonfly bots that are pretty small.
00:54:35 <tswett> It looks like the RoboBee (which is apparently the smallest flying machine, but is not self-powered) uses flapping wings.
00:55:13 <tswett> Capable of flying without an external power supply for some amount of time.
00:55:29 <Bike> paper airplane
00:56:39 <tswett> But yeah, let's say that "flying" must involve propelling itself upward and increasing the total of its potential and kinetic energy (but not necessarily at the same time).
00:57:02 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, some small volume of helium or something i should think
00:57:04 <tswett> I guess rocks can do that, too.
00:57:19 <tswett> Toss a rock upward into an air stream that is also moving upward.
00:57:59 <Phantom__Hoover> if you mean "able to support itself on its own aerodynamic lift in still air" then idk
00:58:12 <tswett> Yeah, I like that definition.
00:58:48 <tswett> Though I think helium still satisfies that definition, doesn't it?
00:59:11 <Sgeo> Now that a security hole in a third-party service has been fixed, I wonder if it's ethical to reveal it
00:59:20 <tswett> Sgeo: why wouldn't it?
00:59:21 <Sgeo> Or at least, supposedly fixed. Sure looks fixed.
00:59:55 <tswett> I guess it's a valid question. I'm not totally sure. My watch needs a new battery.
01:00:58 <olsner> what about antigravity? that should count imo
01:01:14 <tswett> Do helicopter rotors count as antigravity?
01:01:26 <pikhq> Does "no" count as "yes"?
01:02:36 <tswett> How about magicopters?
01:03:11 <tswett> That's not a portmanteau of "magic" and "helicopter"; that's actually how the word would be formed from Greek.
01:03:17 <Phantom__Hoover> imo my definition is going to give the most interesting answers anyway
01:03:18 <olsner> I think helicopter rotors are aerodynamic not antigravitic
01:03:22 <tswett> From "magikos" and "pteros".
01:03:52 <Phantom__Hoover> i mean, you want to know what the limit of miniaturisation of planes/helicopters/birds is, right
01:03:55 <kmc> <kmc> my impression is that there are a lot of good programmers in .fi <kmc> but maybe just abnormally many of them are on IRC :)
01:03:56 <tswett> What is antigravity, anyway? The reduction of the gravitational force exerted on an object?
01:04:05 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoPplpBPQxQ
01:04:17 <tswett> I imagine there are abnormally many Finns on IRC.
01:04:31 <tswett> RAISE YOUR HANDS, FINNS!
01:04:54 <Bike> if you want a 'limit of miniaturization' there's always, you know, insects
01:05:13 <tswett> I wonder what the smallest possible flying machine is.
01:05:25 <kmc> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/30/how-fairy-wasps-cope-with-being-smaller-than-amoebas/
01:05:41 <olsner> Bike: flying insects are above that limit of miniaturization, hth
01:05:48 <kmc> 200 μm long wasp
01:05:54 <tswett> I wonder if you could make one that's just, like, the size of a typical protein.
01:06:00 <Sgeo> Smaller than an amoeba... a single cell..?
01:06:02 <kmc> which makes it smaller than many single-celled organisms
01:06:12 <kmc> it destroys most of its cell nuclei to save space
01:06:15 <Sgeo> Are amoebas particularly large?
01:06:40 <tswett> And I guess so are Paramecium?
01:06:52 <Bike> there are single celled organisms that can "fly" because at that scale gravity isn't the prevailing force
01:07:24 <kmc> giant squid nerve cell is 12 meters long
01:07:39 <tswett> I guess a sufficiently small object would have a difficult time determining which way is down.
01:08:09 <Bike> you have nerve axons in you that are like a meter long right now
01:08:18 <tswett> So, as far as mammals go, humans are broken in at least one way.
01:08:22 <Phantom__Hoover> there's also the point that for sufficiently small values of 'machine' you can probably stay aloft on brownian motion alone
01:08:29 <tswett> We can't make vitamin C. That part is broken.
01:08:40 <Bike> christ, this thing still have several thousand neurons? that's way more than a nematode
01:08:42 <tswett> So that makes me wonder, are there any mammals that aren't broken in some way?
01:08:48 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: yeah, that's what i meant with the single cells.
01:08:52 <Bike> tswett: you have a strange idea of 'broken'.
01:09:18 <Bike> Yeah. How is not making vitamin c a problem?
01:09:49 <Bike> And too much vitamin c makes you sick too, so what?
01:10:03 <Bike> Are we broken for not being autotrophic?
01:10:07 <tswett> Do some animals suffer from vitamin C excess, sometimes?
01:10:08 <Phantom__Hoover> mammals are broken because they can't generate their own energy with no external input
01:10:10 <olsner> some squid have axons that are wider than a millimeter
01:10:24 <Bike> basically what ph said
01:10:25 <coppro> so I realized why this channel is amazing
01:10:29 <coppro> it's in a perpetual flamewar
01:10:38 <Bike> coppro: no it's not
01:10:41 <tswett> By "broken", I mean "lacking some adaptation which the great majority of mammals have".
01:10:59 <olsner> iirc the humboldt squid wins in axon diameter
01:11:05 <Bike> You're... not going to get far on that criterion.
01:11:18 <tswett> olsner: what's its axon diameter?
01:11:29 <Bike> Well. No. Are you expecting some kind of mammal conglomerate?
01:11:31 <kmc> plants aren't autotrophic either, they've just imprisoned chloroplasts to do the dirty work
01:11:37 <kmc> mammal mafia
01:11:41 <Bike> That would entail a lot of adaptations that are pointless for various niches, too...
01:11:55 <kmc> our album covers would just be big photos of breasts
01:12:01 <kmc> i hear that kind of thing sells pretty well
01:12:05 <Bike> I mean, personally, I'm pretty okay with female humans not having pseudopenises.
01:12:12 <elliott> kmc: i saw them open for port authority once
01:12:15 <pikhq> By "broken", you should mean "have the gene for it mutated in such a way that it doesn't function."
01:12:22 <pikhq> Bike: I prefer real penises, so yeah.
01:12:29 <Bike> pikhq: have you ever boned a hyena
01:12:36 <pikhq> And I don't want to.
01:12:37 <Bike> imo try it out
01:12:46 <kmc> D: <--- this is my hyena boning face
01:13:00 <Bike> i hope you all know about hyena reproduction because it's pretty amazing
01:13:14 <tswett> Indeed, the proto-mammal probably had tons and tons of adaptive traits. Pretty much the only way a mammal could have all of the proto-mammal's adaptations would be to, like, not have evolved.
01:13:20 <pikhq> I've even talked about it with a biologist.
01:13:22 <tswett> pikhq: but yeah, I like that definition of "broken".
01:13:34 <tswett> Hyenas are carnivorans, right? Are they dogoids or catoids?
01:13:38 <Bike> Well, my not-making-vitamin-c genes are working just fine
01:13:49 <pikhq> Feliforms, actually.
01:13:59 <tswett> Huh. So they are catoids.
01:14:07 <pikhq> Their dog-like traits are apparently just convergent evolution.
01:14:18 <Sgeo> What episode of new Doctor Who should I watch
01:14:21 <Sgeo> Somewhat bored right now
01:14:24 <olsner> tswett: iirc all of the big axon diameters are "like over a millimeter"
01:14:31 <olsner> you'll have to repeat my research to get more specific numbers :)
01:14:49 <tswett> What taxonomic rank is Carnivora?
01:14:58 <tswett> And, for that matter, Mammalia?
01:15:03 <pikhq> Who cares, the ranks don't mean jack. :P
01:15:14 <Bike> pikhq's an experienced taxonomist i see
01:15:18 <kmc> animalia may rule the day in #esoteric but fungi will have its revenge!
01:15:27 <Bike> mammalia is a subgroup of vertebrata, which is a subgroup of chordata
01:15:31 <tswett> Carnivora is an order in the class Mammalia.
01:15:34 <kmc> fungot: is Dickinsonia an animal or a fungus?
01:15:34 <fungot> kmc: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this world are places like that. a peaceful. hah! you think you are? coming and going out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
01:15:36 <Bike> can't be assed to remember the ranks
01:15:41 <Sgeo> I should continue watching season 1 or something
01:15:43 <tswett> Bike: are they normal subgroups?
01:16:23 <Sgeo> Meh, I have other things I could be doing
01:16:26 <Sgeo> Reading about web sec
01:16:38 <tswett> Sgeo: how's your life going, by the way?
01:16:48 <elliott> the exciting frontier of reading about web sec
01:17:02 <Sgeo> Feels like it's better now that I can spend money on what I want
01:17:22 <tswett> Oh right, do you have a job now?
01:17:34 <Bike> oh right, germ layers
01:17:39 <Bike> stupid hierarchy
01:17:40 <kmc> Sgeo: you might enjoy http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/yahh/ (from the tangled web author)
01:18:08 <elliott> is this a metaphor for websec
01:18:08 <olsner> fungot: who's really a tricycle?
01:18:08 <fungot> olsner: you! take! we find! help! no human's gonna talk we had soldiers searching for! i've come to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!
01:18:13 <Bike> soon, the quatrosomia will evolve, and destroy us all
01:18:19 <Sgeo> kmc, my browser window is too small...
01:18:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:18:29 <Bike> with their three asses, we will know no peace
01:18:44 <Bike> chrono trigger
01:18:45 <kmc> Sgeo: well make it bigger
01:18:47 <Bike> good guess though
01:19:03 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, this is where that sword alone can't stop came from
01:19:10 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
01:19:20 <kmc> ^style enron
01:19:20 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
01:19:23 <kmc> fungot: lets' get high
01:19:24 <fungot> kmc: at the time, you mentioned the party on december 03, 2000
01:19:28 <Bike> some kind of past fling with fungot, no wonder you get death threats ph
01:19:29 <fungot> Bike: rate is not what we don't you talk that that the their site did not do any days next years training... it's an accepted practice on thursday we traded 850) 224-9634 and obtain instructions as to the shipper of any provision of the price to the legislature the generators to the internet for free.
01:19:44 <Sgeo> It did misjudge though
01:21:31 <kmc> the targets you're shooting at are links with a:visited { border-color: pink; }
01:21:52 <kmc> so it can tell which ones you can see, by which ones you click on
01:22:16 <Sgeo> So if you misclick and hit an invisible target, it might think you've been to websites you've never been to
01:23:20 <Bike> "Your browser window is too small. Try at least 900 x 750 or so." not even possible, grand
01:23:35 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: the example in The Tangled Web is a "captcha" consisting of a 7-segment display made out of links, so the number you type in indicates which sites you've visited
01:23:41 <elliott> Bike: how tiny is your monitor...
01:24:03 <kmc> anyway i like these hacks because they involve covertly exfiltrating information THROUGH THE USER'S OWN BRAIN
01:24:30 <tswett> So you know that xkcd question about the resistors and a knight's move?
01:25:16 <Koen_> is that the physics problem he uses to kill a physicist crossing the road?
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01:26:16 <Koen_> I have a feeling that whether the two points are a knight's move away or just one square away doesn't change much to the complexity of the problem
01:26:34 <tswett> Apparently the answer is 4/pi - 1/2.
01:26:59 <Phantom___Hoover> Koen_, making it a square away adds an extra symmetry to the problem
01:26:59 <Koen_> AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE YOU
01:27:34 <Phantom___Hoover> cf. any attempt at deriving useful electrodynamics from maxwell's equations
01:27:36 <tswett> The symmetry group of the original graph is the cyclic group of order 2.
01:27:45 <Koen_> still there's an infinity of possible paths for the electricity
01:27:49 <tswett> And the symmetry group of the one-square-away graph is the Klein four-group.
01:28:22 <tswett> That's not the same thing?
01:28:54 <tswett> So yeah. C_2 and D_2, I guess.
01:29:18 <coppro> ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ALGEBRAIC GRAPH THEORY?
01:29:23 <Phantom___Hoover> Koen_, right but you don't need to consider as many different infinities of possible paths, if that makes any sense
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01:30:25 <Koen_> I don't know it really looks like a lot of possible paths
01:30:48 <tswett> Well, the number of paths is...
01:30:52 <tswett> Do infinitely long paths count?
01:31:46 <olsner> yes, but infinitely little (or there wouldn't be a limit)
01:31:54 <coppro> tswett: how do you sensibly define infinitely long paths?
01:32:16 <Sgeo> Why would a site like, say, PutLocker have links to localhost?
01:32:53 <tswett> coppro: a pair of infinite sequences of nodes, where adjacent nodes are adjacent (...so to speak), the first sequence begins at A, and the second sequence begins at B.
01:33:09 <Sgeo> My gf left apache running for a while by accident and the access logs seem to suggest that Putlocker referred to stuff on localhost
01:33:29 <tswett> Or maybe you have to make the sequences' limit points be the same.
01:33:38 <tswett> Where the permissible limit points are all the nodes, and infinity.
01:33:49 <coppro> this is a two-dimensional grid
01:34:09 <tswett> The infinitely-far-away-from-A infinity.
01:34:16 <Phantom___Hoover> http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath668/kmath668.htm if anyone's not reading it right now
01:34:24 <kmc> oh http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2013/05/some-harmless-old-fashioned-fun-with-css.html is the writeup about that
01:34:30 <tswett> A sequence has a limit point at infinity if and only if its distance from A approaches infinity.
01:34:47 <coppro> tswett: that's factually incorrect
01:35:41 -!- kmc has set topic: IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY! | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:35:51 <coppro> tswett: try some multivariable calculus and then come back, mmkay
01:40:22 <tswett> I can't just define limit points at infinity however I want?
01:40:36 <coppro> but the thing you described is not a limit point at infinity
01:40:45 <coppro> and non-standard definitions suck
01:40:51 <coppro> especially one with such terrible properties
01:50:31 <kmc> are we really a constant flamewar? that's the opposite of how i think of this channel
01:50:54 <tswett> So what's the correct definition of a limit point at infinity?
01:52:05 <tswett> Is there a countable Hausdorff topology on the integers?
01:52:14 <tswett> Where a countable Hausdorff topology is a topology that is countable and Hausdorff.
01:52:45 <elliott> kmc: more like a constant lamewar!!!!!!
01:53:27 <kmc> elliott: fuck off and die in a hole, hth
01:54:12 <coppro> tswett: really? I thought countable Hausdorff topologies were integral domains of finite cardinality
01:55:14 <Phantom___Hoover> tswett, does countable mean first-countable or something else here
01:55:35 <coppro> first-countable? what?
01:55:37 <tswett> Uh, it means just plain countable, I guess.
01:56:05 <Sgeo> kmc, how dare you suggest we're a constant flamewar! That's the most ins... ok, I'm sorry, I'm bad at flaming people
01:56:32 <Bike> i already did that joke sgeo!
01:56:58 <coppro> wait, maybe locally countable?
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01:58:07 <coppro> Phantom__Hoover: stop imposting
01:58:22 <Phantom__Hoover> wait, how is second-countable a stronger condition than first-countable
01:58:26 <olsner> I'm still curious about the flamewar thing, where's this supposed flamewar?
02:00:14 <tswett> Hm. I think that Hausdorffness means that given any two finite, disjoint collections of elements of the space, there is an open set containing every element of the first collection and no element of the second.
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02:01:31 <tswett> Ooh, maybe I've got it. The rational numbers where the open sets are unions of open intervals with rational endpoints... nope, there are uncountably many of those.
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02:03:03 <tswett> How about, mmm... the open sets are all sets of the form { a + bn | n \in N }? No, that obviously doesn't satisfy the union criterion... or the intersection criterion, either.
02:03:40 <tswett> How about saying that the open sets are the periodic sets? There are only countably many of those.
02:03:58 <tswett> Do they satisfy the union criterion... nope, pretty sure they don't.
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02:05:43 <tswett> Consider the set of all multiples of perfect squares.
02:06:19 <tswett> Clearly that's a union of periodic sets, but it's not periodic.
02:08:23 <tswett> All right, there must be infinitely many open sets, so any basis for the topology must have infinitely many elements... I don't think that helps.
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02:16:18 <coppro> tswett: for every pair of integers, there must exist open sets that separate the two
02:16:49 <tswett> Yup. That's what "Hausdorff" means, isn't it?
02:16:51 <coppro> Let O_n be an open set containing n but not n+1.
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02:21:17 <tswett> So, using infinite union, we can, for any n, find an open set containing all integers less than n.
02:21:35 <tswett> Indeed, given any set, it has an open superset.
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02:21:58 <tswett> ...That fact is completely trivial.
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02:24:45 <tswett> coppro: yeah, I don't got it yet.
02:26:02 <coppro> you can biject the integers and the open sets
02:28:05 <tswett> All right. O_n is an injection Z -> tau. So the important thing here must be a surjection Z -> tau, or an injection tau -> Z?
02:28:27 <tswett> I feel like I should be able to do something akin to Cantor's diagonalization argument here.
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02:43:47 <kmc> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protocol is sort of an example of a zero-knowledge proof that isn't probabilistic
02:46:42 <kmc> ofc there's still a probabilistic element in that an attacker can guess the password or the ephemeral private keys
02:47:03 <kmc> but the attacker doesn't get to make another guess without another interaction with the real client or server
02:54:32 <tswett> coppro: ##math hasn't managed to solve this problem yet.
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02:58:41 <coppro> I was too lazy to actually solve it myself
02:58:49 <coppro> but the phd student in the room did it so meh
03:09:08 <tswett> coppro: all right, a guy in ##math found a solution.
03:09:33 <tswett> In a Hausdorff space, given an infinite open set, you can find two disjoint open subsets of it, one of which is infinite.
03:09:53 <tswett> Using this, you can create an infinite sequence of pairwise disjoint open sets.
03:10:04 <tswett> And, using that, you can find uncountably many open sets.
03:10:30 <coppro> the other way is to define S_n such that n \in S_n but k \notin S_n for k < n
03:10:37 <coppro> (by finite intersection)
03:12:14 <coppro> then for any finite set, reorder so that it comes first, and then take \bigcup_{n > k} S_n
03:12:26 <coppro> (given that the fixed set is all integers <= k)
03:12:34 <coppro> so you have every cofinite set
03:12:43 <coppro> but the cofinite topology is not Hausdorff
03:13:01 <coppro> then I forget the last step
03:13:06 <Koen_> madb4rd: ok well I definitely find kick-ass way better than super
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04:15:16 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder if anyone actually installed Windows 95 from 5.25" disks.
04:17:06 <coppro> can we ban him already
04:17:17 <coppro> he's personally responsible for an entire hour of no one saying anything
04:17:20 <coppro> what the hell happened
04:17:54 <kmc> MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK BERZERKER
04:18:13 <elliott> well it's obviously over now
04:18:23 <coppro> but Zerker deserves to be banned for it
04:18:30 <elliott> are you suggesting banning someone for having connection issues
04:18:31 <coppro> also for bouncing in and out every 2 minutes
04:18:43 <elliott> they were probably not even at their computer at the time
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04:42:51 <kmc> shachaf: TIL that calling CPUID from 32-bit fPIC code is tricky because the compiler reserves %ebx for the base whatever pointer
04:43:34 <Fiora> you just have to mark it as clobbered, right?
04:43:48 <Fiora> oh. because inline asm constraints.
04:43:58 <Fiora> it won't let you go load ebx back later... eeesh that's frustrating
04:44:27 <Fiora> I guess you could do like push ebx; cpuid; mov ebx, %0; pop ebx;
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04:44:51 <kmc> can you spot what's wrong with this code (it's super subtle and took me a while):
04:44:54 <kmc> asm volatile("push %%ebx; cpuid; mov %%ebx, %0; pop %%ebx" :
04:44:57 <kmc> "=m"(id[0]), "=d"(id[1]), "=c"(id[2]) : "a"(0) : "memory");
04:45:17 <kmc> (i say shachaf: out of Tradition but I'm really talking to the channel at large)
04:46:01 <Fiora> it doesn't output eax?
04:46:39 <shachaf> shachaf: Well, naturally. It's Tradition.
04:47:25 <kmc> Fiora: CPUID(EAX = 0) puts the processor brand string in EBX,EDX,ECX
04:47:31 <kmc> "GenuineIntel" or whatever
04:47:49 <kmc> copumpkin++
04:48:18 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID#EAX.3D0:_Get_vendor_ID has a list
04:48:23 <kmc> "AMDisbetter!"
04:48:36 <Fiora> it doesn't mark eax as clobbered? I'm not sure
04:48:43 <copumpkin> I had a cyrix "200+" back in the days when I first tinkered with cpuid
04:48:52 <kmc> Fiora: eax is an input so that's ok
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04:49:26 <pikhq> mov %%ebx, %0 looks suspicious.
04:50:22 <pikhq> Hmm, no, that seems right?
04:51:08 <pikhq> Oh, wait, you said *PIC* code.
04:51:18 <pikhq> id[0] needs to be indexed relative to the base pointers.
04:51:28 <kmc> getting close, yeah
04:51:34 <kmc> but in my case it was a function-local variable
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04:51:54 <pikhq> Okay, so it's passing in a stack offset.
04:52:09 <pikhq> And when you push ebx, the stack offset is off.
04:52:57 <pikhq> push ebx; cpuid; mov ebx, eax; pop ebx
04:53:29 <pikhq> And obviously specify "=a" as an out param.
04:54:58 <shachaf> Oops, am I running Debian Stable now?
04:55:28 <pikhq> Clobbers the EAX thing, but if you don't care, you don't care.
04:57:01 <kmc> anyway that took me a good long while to figure out
04:57:19 <pikhq> Makes sense. You wouldn't even look at that unless you knew there was a problem *right there*.
04:57:29 <pikhq> And yeah, it is tricky.
04:57:32 <Fiora> nice one spotting it
04:58:19 <Fiora> doing stack manipulation in inline asm sounds really tricky
04:58:32 <Fiora> kmc: a related thing I remember is, like, let's say you have inline asm that does something like
04:58:41 <Fiora> and you set up all the constraints accordingly and do it all correctly
04:58:49 <Fiora> it'll break horribly on x86_64 anyways.
05:00:00 <Sgeo> I wonder how many people dislike KDE and use Chrome, and dislike MS and IE and use AJAXy websites
05:00:13 <kmc> Sgeo: essentially every human being on planet earth
05:00:25 <kmc> also everyone on the international space station
05:00:27 <Jafet> shachaf: running debian stable transports you five years into the past
05:00:54 <kmc> ♫ danger zone!
05:01:40 <Fiora> because the function can use the area 128 bytes below the stack
05:01:46 <Fiora> for temporary variables
05:01:52 <Fiora> and 'call' writes to that area, possibly overwriting some of them
05:01:59 <Fiora> and gcc doesn't know that you did that
05:02:13 <Sgeo> kmc, hmm, I'm confused. I don't think most human beings know what KDE is? Or are you referring to the general concept of disliking X but using Y that's derived in some way from X?
05:02:19 <Fiora> I don't know if there's any way to fix it other than just disabling the red zone >_<
05:02:26 <Fiora> or like. sub esp, 128 call add esp, 128
05:02:53 <kmc> how does the red zone work again? >_<
05:03:06 <Fiora> I think it's just "you're allowed to use the area down to esp-128"
05:03:22 <Fiora> so that functions don't have to do 'sub esp' if they're leaf functions
05:03:30 <Fiora> and their temps fit in 128 bytes
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05:03:42 <Fiora> it's only on unix64 though, not windows, I think
05:04:02 <Fiora> win64 has its own weird thing, the "shadow space", I think
05:04:20 <Fiora> which I think is that the stack looks like this:
05:04:37 <Fiora> [return address] [32 empty bytes (shadow space)] [stack param0] [stack param1] [...]
05:04:59 <Fiora> so to call you'd do push push... sub esp, 32, call .... add esp, 32, pop, pop
05:05:44 <Fiora> it also has a weird thing where um... xmm6-xmm15 are caller-save
05:05:49 <Fiora> but unix64 doesn't
05:08:39 <kmc> i know so little about windows
05:08:57 <pikhq> kmc: Hmm. I'm not sure if there's a way to do that thing with just inline asm on x86 with only one cpuid call.
05:09:35 <pikhq> Well. If you want to read eax, ebx, ecx, and edx.
05:10:15 <Fiora> kmc: I really don't know why they came up with their own calling convention @_@ maybe it was just an independent development thing
05:10:24 <kmc> yeah you can save in esi / edi, or save ebx in a C variable rather than using push/pop
05:10:25 <Fiora> I've had to deal with it just because my code has to run on windows so >_<
05:10:43 <kmc> msft also has their own 32-bit calling convention don't they
05:10:52 <Fiora> I don't think so? I think it just uses cdecl
05:10:53 <shachaf> they have many 32-bit calling conventions
05:10:57 <pikhq> push %ebx; cpuid; mov %ebx, %esi; pop %ebx // Yeah, that should work.
05:11:00 <kmc> i thought that C++ code on windows passes 'this' in a register and everything else on the stack
05:11:13 <Fiora> C++ is different I think
05:11:16 <Fiora> like everyone has their own C++ ABI
05:11:21 <Fiora> is there even a standard one? I don't think there is
05:11:30 <Fiora> I remember agner has some gigantic document on various C++ ABIs from different compilers
05:11:30 <kmc> there is for linux now, ish
05:11:47 <pikhq> Windows doesn't even have a single C ABI though.
05:11:55 <kmc> IA-64 has a architecture standard C++ ABI and I think g++ has officially adopted it for other arches too, on Linux anyway
05:12:28 <kmc> http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/cxxabi-1.83.html there is some terrifying shit in here
05:13:12 <pikhq> There's cdecl, stdcall, and fastcall in standard C use on Win32.
05:13:53 <Fiora> cdecl's the default though, I think?
05:13:54 <pikhq> cdecl is what you expect, stdcall is callee cleanup, fastcall is callee cleanup with 2 registers used for arguments.
05:13:58 <pikhq> cdecl is the default.
05:14:07 <Fiora> I don't think fastcall is even standard? I thought it was a compiler-specific thing
05:14:13 <pikhq> But the Win32 libraries use stdcall.
05:14:20 <kmc> linux kernel uses 3 register parameters on i386
05:14:24 <Fiora> yeah, but like you have to write STDCALL in the function definition right?
05:14:29 <pikhq> *Microsoft* fastcall is standard.
05:14:47 <pikhq> Microsoft *and* GCC support it there.
05:15:28 <pikhq> GCC tries to be able to compile most any Windows code.
05:15:43 <pikhq> So it's got a few weird contortions for Microsoft's stuff.
05:15:51 <kmc> they tried so hard and got so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter
05:15:55 <Fiora> it can't do microsoft inline asm can it?
05:16:18 <zzo38> I think some of the Microsoft extensions in GCC can be used even if not compiling in Windows.
05:16:41 <kmc> at one point I had mingw Windows CE MIPS target cross GCC on my Linux laptop
05:16:58 <pikhq> What's more important to them is being able to handle Windows headers.
05:17:09 <pikhq> (than just strict bug-for-bug compatibility)
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05:24:38 <mnoqy> i accidentally opened irssi twice
05:31:42 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be
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05:34:28 <shachaf> this time you've gone too far mnoqy
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05:42:28 <Lymia> Logical conclusion
05:46:57 <ion> ::)) http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/four_eyes_illusion_1.jpg
05:48:31 <ion> http://candies.aniwey.net/
05:50:20 <kmc> candies.candiesPerSecond = 50
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05:52:35 <kmc> killed by goblins
05:53:35 <kmc> `pastelog ghosts
05:55:21 <shachaf> kmc: what should i do in ny while i'm there other than all the things i'm going to do
05:56:13 <shachaf> we'll be going to niagara falls for two days apparently
05:56:45 <kmc> visit the high line park, visit roosevelt island, eat at Sarita's Macaroni & Cheese, eat at Mamoun's Falafel, these are pretty much the only things I did when I lived in NYC
05:56:48 <kmc> rode some trains
05:57:11 <shachaf> Hey, I ate at Mamoun's Falafel!
05:57:22 <shachaf> Was that the one I went to with lexande and others?
05:57:23 <coppro> shachaf: like, this week?
05:57:24 <kmc> oh!!!!! eat xi'an famous foods
05:57:30 <kmc> though maybe harder for vegetarian
05:57:33 <coppro> shachaf: where else are you going to be?
05:59:06 <shachaf> The latter looks a little bit non-vegetarian.
05:59:59 <shachaf> Why Sarita's Macarony & Cheese?
06:00:53 <kmc> it's tasty
06:01:02 <kmc> i don't actually know good restaurants
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06:01:25 <kmc> i hear Shake Shack is p. good
06:01:51 <shachaf> I think I went there with sbahra once?
06:01:58 <kmc> Shanghai Cuisine on Bayard St is good for soup dumplings
06:02:00 <shachaf> Or maybe it was somewhere else.
06:02:07 <kmc> as are some other places
06:02:28 <shachaf> Getting to places from the Bronx is kind of annoying.
06:02:30 <kmc> i should meet more cslounge people
06:02:46 <kmc> i'm bad at people
06:03:01 <kmc> don't know
06:03:31 <shachaf> i met kmc a couple of times but we didn't really say much
06:03:55 <kmc> we could hang out more
06:03:57 <kmc> once i move to SF
06:04:50 <kmc> i haven't even applied for jobs yet
06:05:20 <kmc> but I am searching for jobs only in SF
06:05:23 <kmc> at the moment
06:06:34 <shachaf> Maybe I'll start sending emails etc. when I get back from NY.
06:06:50 <shachaf> The whole process is rather unpleasant. Even replying to people is unpleasant.
06:07:24 <kmc> email sucks
06:07:54 <kmc> shachaf: I would much prefer a job in SF proper but I'm willing to consider elsewhere in the Bay Area if it's really cool work
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06:10:37 <shachaf> Fiora: I think it used to be a lounge-thing at CMU.
06:14:06 <kmc> i don't know yet how picky I can afford to be
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07:38:29 <Vorpal> I'm looking at the list of web sites that have access to my google account. Some entries are a bit weird.
07:38:33 <Vorpal> Like "feedly — Profile Information, Google Reader, Google Reader, Google Reader"
07:44:42 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
07:46:17 <Vorpal> two entries for "Android Login Service", three entries for youtube video deck
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07:58:34 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:59:52 <Taneb> @tell ThatOtherPerson that neither rhymes NOR scans. Try again.
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08:44:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: FWIW, "feedly - Profile Information, Google Reader" is all I have for that.
08:45:06 <fizzie> (Also just one Android Login Service.)
08:45:29 <fizzie> Google Chrome and Chromium are separate applications, but I suppose that makes sense.
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09:56:25 <shachaf> kmc: You should read _Impro_ by Keith Johnstone.
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11:20:48 <oklopol> "<tswett> Or maybe you have to make the sequences' limit points be the same." usually you'd use the discrete topology
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11:22:17 <oklopol> "<tswett> So what's the correct definition of a limit point at infinity?" eventually outside any compact set
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11:24:08 <oklopol> so for graphs without topological structure, the path visits each node at most once
11:24:19 <oklopol> oh "limit point" at infinity, not limit
11:24:30 <oklopol> then it's just "visits infinitely many nodes"
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12:00:03 <HackEgo> 742) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
12:00:41 <mnoqy> what happened to the good "hi" quote. probably it didn't have "hi" in quotes.
12:00:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
12:00:58 <mnoqy> no i deleted that one
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12:01:09 <HackEgo> 308) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352)
12:01:15 <HackEgo> 719) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird \ 742) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cb
12:02:26 <Taneb> I'm in a good mood right now
12:04:42 <Taneb> Mainly because of https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/823#issuecomment-17392522
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12:45:01 <Taneb> MY LIBRARY IS USED AS AN EXAMPLE IN A CABAL BUG REPORT
12:46:14 <shachaf> You're promoted from Taneb to Tanea.
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12:49:42 <FireFly> Is that pronounced like "Tanja"?
12:50:04 <Tanea> FireFly: no, the stress is on the e
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12:55:00 <Jafet> Apparently latex only supports four levels of nested bulleted lists
12:55:15 <Jafet> Maybe I need to buy the premium version of latex
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12:59:00 <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
13:00:47 <Tanea> The person I'm talking to has crap scansion!
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13:01:05 <Tanea> "Oh, we all know that / But it's undeniable Tom has the better hat"
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13:05:04 <shachaf> Tanea: Your exercise is to make that work.
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13:08:23 <oerjan> <Tanea> tanAYa <-- not tanEEa?
13:08:51 <Tanea> oerjan: that raises the important question of where is tafar
13:09:43 <oerjan> if there's a reference, pun or former #esoteric regular i'm not getting it.
13:10:39 <oerjan> 12:55:00: <Jafet> Apparently latex only supports four levels of nested bulleted lists
13:10:50 <oerjan> 12:55:15: <Jafet> Maybe I need to buy the premium version of latex
13:11:13 <Tanea> oerjan: in a non-rhotic accent, tanEEa sounds like Ta-near
13:11:14 <oerjan> i think this may be one of the few cases where the word "enterprise" is appropriate.
13:12:16 <oerjan> Jafet: there's probably a package for it somewhere.
13:13:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
13:13:20 <oklopol> so a couple of days ago i tried to prove that there exists a constant e such that e^x = 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/3! + ...
13:13:21 <HackEgo> 1031) <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
13:13:49 <oklopol> is the idea to show that there exists a constant e such that De^x = e^x
13:14:12 <oklopol> and then to show that the function has a taylor series and then it can only be that
13:14:58 <oerjan> oklopol: first step, define a^x ?
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13:15:31 <oklopol> for for rational x and show suitable continuity
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13:16:13 <oerjan> my hunch is that dependent on how you do that, what you want may follow relatively trivially from exp(x+y) = exp(x)*exp(y) and continuity
13:16:54 <oerjan> since afair there are all kinds of different paths you can take to make all the ^ exp e and ln stuff fit together in a provable way
13:17:23 <Tanea> I've had this nick for what? Half an hour?
13:17:27 <Tanea> And already it's in the quotedb
13:17:28 <oklopol> do you have any sort of idea where one could find this stuff
13:18:19 <oerjan> in a relatively stringent introduction book to calculus?
13:18:48 <oerjan> (as in, for people who want to be mathematicians, not people who want to be engineers)
13:19:18 <oerjan> Tanea: it's not my fault that you cannot keep your humor to one nick
13:21:13 <Phantom___Hoover> you know, i never worked out what integration had to do with areas until like 3 years after i learnt how to do it
13:21:50 <Tanea> In other news nobody can go to the picnic
13:21:51 <oerjan> oklopol: my hunch is that a^x for rational x is precisely the kind of path that fits well with my exp(x+y) suggestion.
13:22:58 <oerjan> of course you have to prove that exp(x+y) = exp(x)*exp(y) (by exp i mean the power series of course), but i'm pretty sure i vaguely recall seeing that done directly
13:23:12 <shachaf> Tanea: Wow, it's really hard to match that.
13:23:47 <oerjan> Tanea: clearly you must make the picnic come to them hth
13:24:16 * oerjan suddenly is reminded of the Åsgårdsrei
13:24:16 <oklopol> exp(x+y) = exp(x)*exp(y) this is very elementary
13:24:30 <olsner> Tanea: do you think that's because of the rhyming couplets or because of the picnic?
13:24:31 <oklopol> i didn't really get to looking at the power series yet
13:25:02 <oklopol> don't you just directly multiply the series
13:25:17 <oklopol> and then show that that works because the coefficients grow so effing fast
13:25:29 <oerjan> oklopol: yeah i think so
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13:27:14 <oerjan> oklopol: there is probably an alternative way based on your De^x idea too
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13:29:51 * oerjan finishes his hot^Wlukewarm chocolate
13:29:53 <lambdabot> ThatOtherPerson: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:29:59 <lambdabot> Taneb said 5h 30m 7s ago: that neither rhymes NOR scans. Try again.
13:30:14 <olsner> what does it mean for something to scan?
13:30:33 <oerjan> olsner: rythm of syllables, basically
13:31:12 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: i had a feeling that was rong
13:31:18 <Tanea> Like "door" with an n on the end
13:31:31 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: that one i did on porpoise.
13:32:14 <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: so which part doesn't rhyme? Perhaps it has to do with our accents :P
13:33:20 <oerjan> olsner: in most modern european languages, that rhythm is based on which syllables are stressed and unstressed - but in ancient latin it was based on which syllables were long and short...
13:34:06 <oerjan> i think japanese does it in another way again. pikhq?`
13:34:32 <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: Also, when I read it it has a meter, but I'm probably scrunging up some of the syllables
13:34:49 <Tanea> Can you message me it again?
13:34:54 <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: not to mention that you get the strangest ideas at 3:00 in the morning :P
13:35:34 <oerjan> (well i know they divide stuff into moras instead of syllables, but i don't know how they define rhythm or if they even do.)
13:36:11 <olsner> I've heard that they don't do stress at all (but that doesn't preclude rhythm of other kinds, I suppose)
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13:38:25 <oerjan> <Tanea> Like "door" with an n on the end <-- and this would be a non-rhotic door, right?
13:38:49 <Tanea> oerjan: I would expect people with a rhotic accent to pronounce the r as appropriate
13:38:55 <olsner> I think it's with a retroflex nasal at the end
13:39:01 <Tanea> I was really commenting on the vowel sounds
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13:39:59 <oerjan> olsner: even when you speak english? that's some scandinavian accent.
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13:41:07 <olsner> oerjan: I haven't noticed whether I ever do that in english or not
13:41:50 <Tanea> shachaf: working on it
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13:46:35 <oklopol> spivak starts by defining log x as the integral of 1/t from 1 to x
13:46:50 <oklopol> apparently the fundamental theorem of calculus has been dealt with at this point
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13:49:29 <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: Jeeves and Wooster
13:49:33 <Tanea> Constant Jeeves and Wooster
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14:06:43 <oklopol> i don't think i considered doing this
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15:09:25 <shachaf> I made it way harder than it needed to be, too.
15:12:51 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
15:13:08 -!- IAOIT has changed nick to Sgeo.
15:13:09 <shachaf> IAOIT............................
15:13:37 <shachaf> You were here when I `olisted.
15:13:43 <shachaf> Do you not have a hilight on Sgeo?
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15:14:03 <shachaf> You can't excite us like that, man.
15:14:43 <Sgeo> Maybe it's early up in my scrollback?
15:14:56 <Sgeo> Is it before the netsplits?
15:15:12 <shachaf> FireFly: Do you even read `olist?
15:16:16 <FireFly> No, I used to but haven't kept ut with it, but it's a great reminder that I should re-read parts of it to get back on track
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15:17:04 <FireFly> (well, the reminder hasn't helped *yet*, but I'm sure I'll get sufficiently annoyed by it soon that I'll go read it)
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15:17:20 <FireFly> what, that's not how olist's supposed to be used?
15:17:43 <shachaf> You should sign up for `olistdeluxe.
15:19:02 <FireFly> I think they were in a desert last time I read oots.. I wonder when that was
15:21:16 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ index.html.1 \ index.html.2 \ index.html.3 \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
15:21:27 <FireFly> I think I'll re-read from page 1
15:21:44 <FireFly> fungot...... where are you?
15:23:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/olist
15:25:21 <FireFly> the *list's ought to have comments in them signifying what they are for
15:25:29 <Sgeo> What's a seed?
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15:26:29 <Sgeo> 'Epic spells are spells developed from the ground up using a list of magical ingredients called seeds.'
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15:28:09 <tswett> oklopol: isn't "visits infinitely many nodes" the same thing as "gets arbitrarily far from the origin", at least in this case?
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15:28:45 <oklopol> well yes, but having limit infinity is not the same as having a limit point at infinite, the way i interpret this
15:28:55 <oklopol> i interpret it as taking the one-point compactification
15:29:21 <oklopol> and taking limits w.r.t. what you get
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15:34:29 <AnotherTest> python needs a shorthand for x for x in xs...
15:35:03 <fizzie> I should probably add a highlight for fungot's quit.
15:35:16 <Jafet> `run python -c 'xs = "xs";print [x for x in xs]'
15:35:53 <AnotherTest> Jafet: that's okay, but I seem to be using it alot for in combination with an if statement
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15:36:08 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: the combinations of scalars. do. not... see mbf.)
15:36:12 <Jafet> `run egrep -o '<title>.*</title>' *.html
15:36:22 <Jafet> `run egrep -o '<title>.*</title>' *.html*
15:36:24 <HackEgo> index.html:<title>Google</title> \ index.html.1:<title></title> \ index.html.2:<title>GitHub · Build software better, together.</title> \ index.html.3:<title>Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki</title>
15:37:15 <AnotherTest> `run python -c 'xs = "Xs";print [x for x in xs if x.isupper()]'
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15:38:01 <AnotherTest> I'd like to be able to write print [all xs if x.isupper()] or something
15:38:59 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print filter (lambda x: x.isupper()) "Xs"'
15:39:01 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ print filter (lambda x: x.isupper()) "Xs" \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
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15:39:19 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print filter((lambda x: x.isupper()), "Xs"')
15:39:21 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python -c 'print filter((lambda x: x.isupper()), "Xs"')'
15:39:27 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print filter((lambda x: x.isupper()), "Xs")'
15:39:31 <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: it's gradually being replaced by HackEgo
15:39:48 <AnotherTest> well I could use filter but it wouldn't make much difference
15:40:20 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
15:40:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Test: not found
15:40:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hello: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hello: cannot execute: No such file or directory
15:41:21 <HackEgo> main() { asm("xor %edi, %edi\n" "inc %edi\n" "mov %rsp, %rsi\n" "go: movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi)\n" "rdtsc\n" "and $1, %al\n" "add %al, 2(%rsi)\n" "mov %edi, %eax\n" "xor %edx, %edx\n" "mov $3, %dl\n" "syscall\n" "jmp go"); }
15:41:47 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....@.....@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....l......l........ ............p......p`.....p`.................... .................`.....`............................
15:41:51 <HackEgo> short const main[]={-14520,448,0,18432,-14393,1,0,-29368,3893,0,18432,-15673,14,0,1295,184,0,-15616,25928,27756,8303,28535,27762,8548,10};
15:42:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/factor: is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/factor: cannot execute: Success
15:42:34 <Jafet> `run gcc hello.c -o hello -nostdlib && ./hello
15:42:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000000000040010c \ bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./hello
15:42:54 <Jafet> Why does C suck so much
15:43:00 <HackEgo> bash: ./factor: is a directory
15:43:01 <Jafet> `run gcc hello.c -o hello -Os && ./hello
15:43:03 <shachaf> Tanea: How's the rhyming going?
15:43:15 <Tanea> Well, it still rhymes
15:43:32 <shachaf> Tanea: I mean, making that "couplet" fit in somehow.
15:43:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/wisdom: is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/wisdom: cannot execute: Success
15:44:11 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
15:44:38 <HackEgo> coppro prefers his nickname, Pooppy.
15:44:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastewisdow: not found
15:44:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:44:55 <HackEgo> ThatOtherPerson? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:45:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:45:51 <HackEgo> xTI+DQ@5ֵz\2uaz{E^A(*Q-8hZouZc^bB*0>a:vd$ׂR;_dzgYPc'?V0[0fѳM"e)Ipk^#d+,ǭOE}+Os)qBI8c,Dgpyiv- \ .~Yr_7?:BaYjjTW6&lw
15:45:57 <fizzie> `run gcc hello.c -o hello2 -nostdlib -Os -s -Wl,--entry,main && ./hello2; wc -c hello2 # close enough?
15:46:00 <HackEgo> Hello world! \ .bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./hello2 \ 720 hello2
15:46:15 <shachaf> Tanea: You're responsible for making a FireFly entry. hth
15:46:47 <fizzie> 720 bytes is much less bloaty, but the program probably attempts to ret.
15:46:57 -!- Gregor has joined.
15:47:03 <Tanea> `learn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
15:47:21 <Tanea> AnotherTest: atrip, ngevc
15:47:52 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:48:03 <fizzie> I was expecting Tane`.
15:48:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:48:55 <HackEgo> FIREFLY WAS A SHORT-RUNNING BUT WELL-LOVED SCI-FI TV SERIES RELEASED IN 2003, STARRING NATHAN FILLION AND DIRECTED AND WRITTEN BY JOSS WHEDON!
15:49:24 <Jafet> `run objdump -D hello2 -M intel | sed -e '/hello/,/main>/ d' -e 's/^ \+[0-9a-f]\+:\s\+\([0-9a-f][0-9a-f] \)\+\s\+//'
15:49:42 <HackEgo> valgrind: /usr/lib/valgrind /usr/lib64/valgrind
15:49:57 <HackEgo> bash: valgrind: command not found
15:50:08 <oerjan> <FireFly> I think they were in a desert last time I read oots.. I wonder when that was <-- technically they still are, i think
15:50:50 <Tanea> Last time I read Homestuck there wasn't a disk three
15:51:13 <Tanea> And the chap with the bad fake tan was dead
15:54:33 <shachaf> Tanea: This meter is going to drive me crazy.
15:55:21 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:56:12 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> What are all the bots in this channel?
15:56:19 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
15:56:51 <oerjan> not all are currently present
15:57:04 <Tanea> Pietbot died of cot death
15:57:24 <fungot> FireFly: wonder if there's a fnord for
15:57:41 <jconn> FireFly: |value error: stuff
15:57:54 <oerjan> and this doesn't include glogbot and clog, which are for logging not executing commands (although glogbot accepts !logs i think)
15:58:20 <shachaf> oerjan: That should say: jconn ) , blsqbot !
15:58:34 <Tanea> jconn is J, isn't it
15:59:02 <FireFly> ThatOtherPerson: refer to Tanea's last line
15:59:12 <jconn> AnotherTest: |syntax error
15:59:13 <jconn> AnotherTest: | [1,2,3]
15:59:20 <jconn> AnotherTest: 1 2 3
15:59:47 <FireFly> I don't think that does what you want it to
15:59:56 <oerjan> shachaf: that ) makes fungot's list so awkward to change because it means i need to brainfuck instead of underload
15:59:56 <fungot> oerjan: anyway it was years ago)
16:00:04 <FireFly> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm might help
16:00:15 <jconn> AnotherTest: |value error: pow
16:00:15 <jconn> AnotherTest: | pow 5 5
16:00:15 <jconn> FireFly: |domain error
16:00:38 <shachaf> oerjan: you could just use HackEgo hth
16:01:10 <AnotherTest> 123456789 ^ 123456789 = infinity, it has been proven!
16:01:27 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:01:27 <jconn> AnotherTest: | 5/0
16:01:40 <FireFly> > 123456789 ^ 123456789 :: Double
16:01:46 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:01:46 <jconn> AnotherTest: | 2 ^ .5
16:02:19 <jconn> AnotherTest: |syntax error
16:02:19 <jconn> AnotherTest: | 123!
16:02:27 <jconn> AnotherTest: 1.21463e205
16:02:27 <oerjan> shachaf: um the prefixes command is on fungot, HackEgo and EgoBot by design.
16:02:28 <fungot> oerjan: in fact, no way to ascertain the " fnord/ mm/ blah
16:02:40 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
16:02:43 <jconn> Tanea: 0 5 5 4 2 3 2 1 4 2
16:03:16 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:03:16 <jconn> AnotherTest: | _/_
16:03:22 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:03:22 <jconn> AnotherTest: | _/0
16:03:56 <FireFly> Guys, um, I think jconn works in query too
16:04:22 -!- Bike has joined.
16:04:35 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fueue.c \ ul.emm
16:05:11 <oerjan> hm i may not have saved it there
16:05:12 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has joined.
16:05:13 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello2 \ hello.c \ hi \ hi.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
16:05:25 <HackEgo> awesome \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ lua \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
16:06:42 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:08:41 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
16:12:39 <Jafet> `run echo 'const short main[] = {18517,58761,49201,49801,49407,51081,3816,0,18432,27749,28524,8236,28535,27762,8548,24074,3762,1295,15536,-207,1295};' > hello.c && gcc hello.c -o hello -nostdlib -Os -s -Wl,--entry,main && ./hello && wc hello
16:12:44 <HackEgo> Hello, world! \ 1 9 712 hello
16:16:23 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:17:08 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:21:40 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
16:27:11 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
16:28:48 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:34:10 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:34:17 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:34:22 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:35:11 <Tanea> @tell boily can you add ~prefixes to metasepia URGENTLY
16:35:29 <Tanea> @tell boily see fungot, HackEgo, and EgoBot for how it should behave
16:35:30 <fungot> Tanea: unable to authenticate to afs because cache manager is not initialized afsd is not running out as fast as the register set until captured in a
16:38:08 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:39:21 <oerjan> Tanea: if it's not a publicly modifiable command it'll just get out of synch hth
16:39:45 -!- Tanea has left ("Leaving").
16:39:51 -!- Tanea has joined.
16:39:58 <Bike> wait who is tanea??
16:40:10 <Tanea> Bike: here's a hint
16:40:10 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:40:21 <Tanea> Who plays Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, and lives in Hexam?
16:40:29 <Tanea> That's right, I'm elliott
16:40:32 <Bike> ???????????????????????
16:40:47 <shachaf> Tanea: How's the thing going?
16:40:53 <shachaf> Tanea: You *are* doing it, right?
16:41:02 <Tanea> shachaf: of course
16:41:28 <oerjan> `learn Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Hexhal.
16:42:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: g: not found
16:43:58 <FireFly> http://hostcabi.net/domain_misspelling/dwarf-fortress ...this could easily get expensive
16:49:27 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:51:40 -!- sivoais has joined.
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16:55:45 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:56:31 <shachaf> ThatOtherPerson: oklopol.com
16:56:31 <oklopol> how about mycoolwegpabe.com
17:02:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Elater).
17:03:14 <jconn> ThatOtherPerson: 2
17:06:44 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think of jokes like <person> "two women sit next to each other while not talking."
17:07:30 <shachaf> asked to clarify, <person> shachaf: it's funny because women always talk........
17:07:52 <shachaf> what is a reasonable reaction in a situation like that
17:08:58 <Fiora> awkwardly moving away from that person, crying into a pillow, and wishing you could be in a different cosmos, then playing some games or something
17:09:46 <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/IwlSZOr.png
17:10:46 <shachaf> kmc: (Wondering how to reäct in the other channel; I think you talk about this sort of thing sometimes.)
17:11:01 <kmc> Bike: v. cool
17:11:22 <kmc> "I'm calling the cops on you."
17:11:31 <Bike> I never inject.
17:12:33 <kmc> shachaf: maybe http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Good_sexism_comebacks
17:13:41 <Bike> except i like always go with "dude not cool" how creative of me!
17:13:54 <oklopol> is it bad because it's sexist?
17:14:22 <kmc> it's a joke at the expense of women as a group, and one which reinforces stereotypes
17:14:35 <kmc> also it's just not funny at all
17:14:36 <Bike> also it's not really funny anyway?
17:14:57 <Fiora> it's also pretty terribly inaccurate
17:14:59 <shachaf> Q: What group are puns at the expense of?
17:15:04 <shachaf> A: The people who hear them.
17:15:10 <Bike> heh i was gonna say
17:15:18 <kmc> yeah there is Science about this
17:15:34 <shachaf> Yes, someone linked to http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003607.html
17:15:49 <shachaf> Which seems to be sort of beside the point.
17:15:53 <oklopol> are all jokes based on stereotypes unfunny or just women ones
17:16:07 <Fiora> pretty much all of them, really
17:16:28 <kmc> oklopol: i think a joke can be funny and socially unacceptable at the same time
17:16:31 <kmc> but this one isn't funny
17:16:49 <Fiora> though it's probably not-okay for groups which one can't really voluntarily be part of
17:17:08 <kmc> stereotypes set up expectations and good humor is generally about subverting expectations in an unexpected way
17:17:09 <Fiora> e.g. making jokes about bronies, okay. making jokes about gay people, really quite not okay
17:17:12 <kmc> rather than just reinforcing them
17:17:18 <Fiora> but yeah, what kmc said really <.<
17:17:35 <FireFly> What about jokes about right-wing supporters, are they okay?
17:18:24 <FireFly> I didn't mean to kill the channel >.>
17:18:42 -!- Yonkie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:18:43 <copumpkin> wow, http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Bad_sexism_comebacks are remarkably bad
17:19:09 <Bike> do people... tell sexist people they need to get raped...
17:19:18 -!- conehead has joined.
17:19:49 <kmc> there was that episode of 30 Rock about Liz's sketchy middle eastern neighbor who she thinks is a terrorist but it turns out he's auditioning to be on a reality TV show
17:19:54 <kmc> (spoilers)
17:19:55 <Bike> i mean i've seen 'sexism isn't manly' a lot
17:20:26 <oklopol> yeah i guess not dissing bronies isn't cool yet
17:20:46 <kmc> that was a funny joke about stereotypes which doesn't simply affirm them
17:20:58 <zzo38> I think you should make joke of anything; it doesn't matter.
17:21:16 <Tanea> I think zzo38 is stupid. This is funny.
17:21:19 <Tanea> You can laugh now.
17:21:40 <Bike> that seems like an evil laugh
17:21:41 <kmc> as a white guy my life is terribly hard because of all these restrictions on what jokes I can make!
17:21:43 <Bike> mwa, ha, ha, ha
17:21:53 <kmc> it's just not fair
17:22:58 <Bike> (see hive vagina)
17:23:02 <olsner> spend one day a week pretending to be some other-group and make "self"-deprecating jokes about that group
17:23:06 <kmc> Bike: what
17:23:14 <Bike> it was on the page
17:23:57 -!- Gregor has changed nick to PonyPonyPony.
17:24:08 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know, is not fair, so just make any joke please.
17:24:15 <zzo38> You need freedom of speech, please.
17:24:47 <oklopol> PonyPonyPony: that people are still making fun about bronies
17:24:50 <Bike> PonyPonyPony: i'm hoping this involves a six foot tall Brony Enforcer
17:24:59 <Fiora> Bike: whenever I see the phrase "hive vagina" I think of bees >.>
17:25:02 <kmc> zzo38: freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the social consequences of your speech
17:25:08 <Fiora> (it's a great phrase though)
17:25:21 <kmc> zzo38: if I call you a racial slur, you can and should expect that the rest of the channel will ostracize me
17:25:25 <kmc> that's not government censorship
17:25:26 <olsner> Fiora: it sounds quite scary
17:25:28 <PonyPonyPony> Bike: Well, technically speaking Big Macintosh is probably only four or five feet at the shoulder, but you wouldn't want to get into a fight with him.
17:25:41 <Bike> PonyPonyPony: tbh i can't think of any horse i'd want to get in a fight with
17:25:41 <zzo38> kmc: OK, yes of course there are consequences, but I think you need freedom of speech anyways.
17:25:51 <Jafet> kmc: we can't do that! That's discriminatory.
17:25:51 <kmc> what do you think the phrase "freedom of speech" means?
17:25:58 <kmc> that communities shouldn't have any standards for what's acceptable or not?
17:26:04 <Fiora> (it's a livejournalism I think?)
17:26:08 <zzo38> No, that isn't what I mean.
17:26:20 <Fiora> kmc: I really love it when people cry "freedom of speech" to try to /make people stop talking/
17:26:25 <kmc> yeah seriously
17:26:28 <zzo38> I mean that you should have freedom of speech even though other people should also have the freedom to complain!
17:26:40 <kmc> zzo38: well, I do have freedom of speech
17:26:48 <Bike> i don't think the government's going to stop you from calling people bitches or w/e, zzo38
17:26:55 <Bike> i'd say you got that one locked up
17:26:55 <kmc> and so does the person whose joke shachaf objected to
17:27:16 <PonyPonyPony> <Bike> PonyPonyPony: tbh i can't think of any horse i'd want to get in a fight with // Fair 'nuff
17:27:17 <oklopol> it's a weird idea that people should be able to say whatever they want without it leading to physical things, because the whole modern society is based on the idea that words mean something
17:27:27 <zzo38> Say it even though somebody complains.
17:27:32 <shachaf> kmc: the situation is improved thanks to copumpkin
17:27:37 <Bike> copumpkin: fascist
17:27:53 <kmc> ROAD CLOSED DUE TO COPUMPKIN, EXPECT DELAYS
17:28:35 <copumpkin> what's sort of amusing in some sense
17:28:40 <AnotherTest> I though C++ was the only language where you "first clone yourself and then shoot all of your clones in the foot"
17:28:45 <Bike> hm there's a good SNL sketch about this
17:28:46 <copumpkin> well, do you guys know what the symbol for fascism is?
17:29:05 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
17:29:33 <Bike> "What kind of Indian are you again?" "I'm Pakistani." "So... is that your tribe, or..." "It's a country." "God damn it, Racist Jim." "And now we're back to name calling!"
17:31:16 <kmc> shachaf: what channel was this
17:32:21 <AnotherTest> I think it might as well be a bug in my python interpreter
17:32:33 -!- Tanea has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
17:35:38 <Bike> that doesn't sound fun
17:36:32 <kmc> damn it, have to reboot chrome again
17:36:50 <AnotherTest> Python's documentation is weird: "There is no shorthand for referencing data attributes (or other methods!) from within methods. I find that this actually increases the readability of methods: there is no chance of confusing local variables and instance variables when glancing through a method."
17:36:58 <kmc> <zzo38> Say it even though somebody complains.
17:37:06 <kmc> did it occur to you that maybe people complain because they actually find these things hurtful
17:37:18 <kmc> and so maybe you shouldn't say it, because you are hurting another person
17:37:48 <kmc> especially when "it" is an unfunny throwaway joke with basically no redeeming qualities
17:38:27 <shachaf> what if it hurts me when people talk about how hurt they are
17:38:32 <shachaf> imo they should suffer in silence
17:38:55 <olsner> shachaf: then you'd just suffer in silence, hth
17:39:10 <shachaf> olsner: um, i'm special hth
17:40:26 <elliott> kmc: oh boy what did i miss
17:40:43 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: Did you know there is also a ThatOtherGuy on freenode?
17:40:55 <Bike> shachaf burned himself alive to protest not being able to make jokes about women making sandwiches
17:41:10 <olsner> hmm, why did the whole discussion about what's ok in #-blah end up here anyway?
17:41:36 <Bike> probably because shachaf is here and kmc is here but kmc isn't in blah maybe
17:41:56 <shachaf> I did it under the guise of asking for advice but maybe I was just annoyed.
17:42:22 <elliott> shachaf's just playing the good old show kmc bad things game.
17:42:22 <shachaf> Maybe the right solution to that sort of joke is to have more than one person agree that it's not acceptable.
17:42:52 <elliott> it's about everything but copumpkin
17:42:55 <copumpkin> it's where we go if we want to talk about non-sexist stuff and need a break from #sexism
17:43:29 <Bike> iis -blah actually a thing
17:43:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:43:59 <olsner> Bike: no, it is only a metaphor
17:44:31 <Bike> what;s haskell-blah a metaphor for
17:44:31 -!- Tanea has joined.
17:44:50 <elliott> it's a metaphor for... oerjan
17:45:15 <oerjan> does that mean i must never join it?
17:45:28 * oerjan cannot recall if he ever has
17:45:48 <shachaf> i never metaphørjan i didn't like
17:46:44 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> oklopol: ಠ_ಠ <-- admittedly oklopol is funnier than the original "joke".
17:48:24 <shachaf> I got distracted from the thing.
17:48:58 <Bike> noooo, not the thing
17:49:05 <oerjan> <Fiora> awkwardly moving away from that person, crying into a pillow, and wishing you could be in a different cosmos, then playing some games or something <-- this basically applies to everything, right?
17:50:01 <elliott> Tanea: are you going to go back to Tandz next
17:50:36 <oerjan> <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/IwlSZOr.png <-- is it the word "cool" that is stupid, or just this person's understanding of it?
17:50:36 <shachaf> elliott: *If* Tanea gets promoted again, he'll be told what he's promoted to.
17:51:00 <Bike> oerjan: is this a koan
17:51:16 <elliott> get a life you ganja gremlin
17:51:20 <oerjan> Bike: shachaf: i guess you are right.
17:51:52 <kmc> Haskell? Blah!
17:52:38 <ThatOtherPerson> If that is actually an abbreviation that is used I will be surprised.
17:52:57 <shachaf> Oh boy, http://www.mmyvofficial.org/
17:54:30 <oklopol> oerjan: no matter what words you use, it's not cool to read things that claim to be cool on the internet and use them to be cool.
17:54:56 <shachaf> http://www.mmyvofficial.org/publications/marijuana-addiction-percentages/
17:55:03 <elliott> kmc finally gives up on haskell entirely........
17:55:05 <shachaf> that's a pretty high percentage
17:55:07 <oerjan> hm coolness is like the tao?
17:55:23 <oerjan> the cool that can be claimed is not the true cool
17:55:33 <oklopol> "No, I'm allergic to hate."
17:55:36 <Bike> "United States: 85.4%" wuh oh
17:55:50 <Bike> am i... am i addicted to the marijuana.......
17:55:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i suspect it's some kind of meta-joke.
17:56:06 <kmc> wow this is even nuttier than the usual propaganda
17:56:08 <kmc> poe's law abounds
17:56:21 <Bike> The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that more than 10,000,000 annual U.S. deaths, including more than 134,400 in Colorado, are attributed to marijuana use alone (i.e. this figure does not include accidental deaths).
17:56:44 <elliott> intentional marijuana deaths
17:56:58 <kmc> those kinds of posters are common in US schools though
17:57:09 <elliott> this is probably caused by Bike and like three other people
17:57:10 <Bike> Health-related costs for marijuana consumers are eight times greater than those for marijuana consumers, according to an assessment recently published in the British Columbia Mental Health and Addictions Journal.
17:57:10 <ThatOtherPerson> Not that I'm for marijuana or anything, but that website seems to have quite a bit of... hyperbole
17:57:23 <Bike> yeah i'm thinking this is too absurd to be real, even for propaganda
17:57:24 <elliott> "Not that I'm for marijuana or anything" ty ty I was briefly worried your moral standards were compromised
17:57:28 <kmc> i'm for marijuana
17:57:33 <Bike> elliott: i strangle people with cannabis plants
17:57:35 <kmc> just in case that wasn't clear already
17:57:49 <ThatOtherPerson> "the most devastating substance known to mankind" <-- how can you substantiate that claim
17:57:49 <Bike> uh the UK doesn't have marijuana elliott
17:57:53 <elliott> kmc: ummmmm what,,, are you saying you support DRUGS??? you of all people¿¿¿
17:57:55 <oerjan> Bike: this is larger than the actual amount of people dying annually in the us, right?
17:58:21 <kmc> Bike: hemp rope is pretty strong
17:58:23 <shachaf> kmc: speaking of which i think the website i was thinking of was http://thegreencross.org/
17:58:35 <elliott> well this thing actually has a paypal donation link
17:58:36 <kmc> oh for pot delivery
17:58:51 <Bike> oerjan: in 2010 the CDC counted 2,468,435 deaths yes
17:58:54 <ThatOtherPerson> "Physically eliminate all traces from marijuana on the planet using various and highly advanced methods."
17:59:01 <elliott> Here is an image of our trained and dedicated social media staff here at MMYV. These are the people you see commenting and making posts on the Marijuana MAKES You Violent Facebook page.
17:59:05 <elliott> http://www.mmyvofficial.org/about-us/268052_510306798990162_1058851281_n/
17:59:10 <olsner> elliott: luckily, there are 36 ways for you to maintain your "cool" while also not accepting DRUGS from kmc
17:59:10 <shachaf> i gave kmc access to drugz and it made me cool right
17:59:50 <elliott> shachaf: haha this is great
17:59:56 <kmc> "THC Infused Hot & Spicy Mixed Nuts"
18:00:06 <Bike> Research published this year in the journal Marijuanaism: Clinical & Experimental Research, found that 36 percent of hospitalized assaults and 21 percent of all injuries are attributable to marijuana use by the injured person.
18:00:20 <elliott> http://thegreencross.org/uploads/products/IncredimedsPromo.jpeg
18:00:52 <zzo38> I wouldn't think messing the planet is the good idea.
18:01:01 <kmc> ok anything THC infused that's also a good snack food is a serious feedback loop danger
18:01:02 <oerjan> <Bike> elliott: i strangle people with cannabis plants <-- ambiguous sentence please clarify hth
18:01:12 <elliott> wow you can get weed honey
18:01:52 <Bike> kmc: you know the muchies is culturebound? it's neat
18:02:26 <samebchase> Smoking marijuana (seems to be) on the rise, here in India.
18:02:36 <Bike> i had an anthro professor that did a lot of weed with Rastas in the carribean (best science? quite possibly) and none of them even recognied the idea
18:02:57 <ThatOtherPerson> I shall now use various and highly advanced methods to satiate my hunger.
18:03:02 <elliott> Bike: i wish i didn't know that
18:03:11 <olsner> I'm starting to think that this MMYV thing is a parody
18:03:26 <Bike> elliott: blaze it
18:03:30 <kmc> if weed is fully legalized and normalized in USA, it will be interesting to see how 'stoner culture' changes
18:03:53 <kmc> i mean 'stoner culture' is already a minority of people who use pot
18:03:54 <shachaf> i wonder if this will be the most successful part of my ploy to get kmc over to sf
18:04:15 <kmc> but also it's vaguely based on being transgressive and on pot being a kind of in-joke
18:04:15 <Bike> my dad was trying to sponsor stoner culture now that it's legal here
18:04:28 <Bike> unfortunately his Washingstonian shirts didn't go over as well as he'd hoped
18:04:30 <elliott> Bike: no you don't understand
18:04:46 <elliott> now at any future point in my life if i am to obtain ``the munchies'' (as they are referred to) i'm going to think
18:04:58 <Bike> how postmodern
18:05:14 <zzo38> I am neither an astronomer nor an astrologer. Some people have userboxes to specify if they are an astronomer and not an astrologer.
18:05:22 <Bike> kmc: imagine the space needle but the top is replaced with a leaf. now put it on a t-shirt
18:05:27 <shachaf> elliott: oh no elliott don't become violent
18:05:51 <oklopol> "i strangle people with cannabis plants" he obviously strangles plants to people that have cannabis.
18:05:53 <elliott> well having browed the green cross's baked goods selection i don't want weed but i *do* want brownies
18:05:58 <elliott> what's the real addiction here
18:06:11 <Bike> if there are weed brownies is there brownie weed
18:06:37 <Bike> "-Adopt a clean whole foods based diet. The diet you have been eating as a marijuana addict has been destroying your gut and is terrible for you in general." this is like a full-on hit of kmc
18:06:48 <ion> http://www.youtube.com/MMYVofficial
18:06:55 <Bike> "Be careful about viewing violent images, often this triggers a relapse and sends the addict back to using. Even reading about wars in the newspaper can cause the most dedicated reformed addict to fall of the wagon." wh
18:07:23 <elliott> it's kind of sketchy that they have a donation link on a clearly fake site
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18:07:31 <ion> This video is awesome. :-D
18:07:40 <Bike> What causes violence? This has been an age old question that was unanswerable up until now. After conducting extensive surveys and medical experiments, we have definitely proven that marijuana is the sole cause of violence on this planet.
18:08:02 <oerjan> <Fiora> Bike: whenever I see the phrase "hive vagina" I think of bees >.> <-- wait this is a common phrase?
18:08:14 <Bike> @google hive vagina
18:08:15 <lambdabot> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_vagina
18:08:15 <lambdabot> Title: Hive vagina - Geek Feminism Wiki
18:08:38 <Bike> Issues/Criticism: Not all feminists, nor all women, have vaginas. The term is therefore exclusionary.
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18:09:11 <shachaf> the term "feminism" is exclusionary hth
18:11:24 <nooodl_> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/0xB16B00B5/BIGBOOBS_Constant_in_Microsoft_Hyper-V good
18:11:26 <shachaf> Tanea: OK, I think I'll finish this later.
18:11:40 <olsner> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-Minbari_war
18:11:54 <nooodl_> "a number is sexist" - whoever wrote this
18:12:00 <oerjan> <elliott> it's kind of sketchy that they have a donation link on a clearly fake site <-- hey faking stuff is expensive hth
18:12:16 <AnotherTest> Heh, I had this fancy algorithm to connect 2 boxes nicely, but it did the exact reverse thing :(
18:12:28 <shachaf> fizzie: Can we have statistics on how many lines of oerjan's end in hth?
18:12:58 <shachaf> <oerjan> shachaf: all of them hth
18:13:22 <Bike> nooodl_: it's a magic number, somebody wrote it in intentionally.
18:13:24 <oerjan> i expect that depends a lot on how many years you go back hthgate
18:14:00 <nooodl_> (i know it is, i'm taking lots of piss here)
18:14:01 <shachaf> oerjan: that's why i asked for "statistics" rather than "a statistic" hth
18:14:20 <oerjan> i'm not a statistic. yet.
18:15:15 <nooodl_> it's probably the most compact way anyone's ever been sexist anywhere... 32 bits of sexism "how can you beat that"
18:16:09 <elliott> This is our updated shirt design featuring bold and powerful text, allowing for its wearer to proudly display that they remain free from the grasp of marijuana. This is the shirt for you if you love peace.
18:16:27 <kmc> 'I remember a girl calling in embarrassed because she sometimes would pee when she had a good orgasm. Dr. Drew asked how her boyfriend reacted to it, and she replied that he seemed proud. Adam Carolla then countered that "Of course he was proud. A swarm of bees could come out of your vagina when you orgasm and he'd be proud."'
18:17:34 <nooodl_> elliott: sounds like a good shirt imo
18:17:52 <elliott> 13:30:51: <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: how do you pronounce your last name?
18:18:32 <shachaf> is that like a beard of bees
18:19:04 <kmc> bee merkin
18:19:28 <elliott> good botspam in this log imo
18:21:02 <kmc> yeah that does sound like a good shirt
18:21:27 <elliott> http://cache1.bigcartel.com/product_images/99655123/MMYVNewShirt.png
18:21:29 <olsner> nooodl_: heh, did you see the discussion in the linked blog post too? someone ends up arguing that it's not a problem because no girls write kernel code anyway
18:21:29 <elliott> it sounds better than it looks
18:23:19 <Bike> kmc: one of the designs my dad is hocking: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12780151/20130505_111931.jpg
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18:24:45 <Bike> yeah, that was basically my reaction too
18:25:12 <Bike> he doesn't even smoke or anything, he just doesn't care and wanted to see if he could make some cahs.
18:26:37 <ThatOtherPerson> Stupid Windows is so stupid that it doesn't even have a whois command
18:29:31 <Bike> "I do not, for the life of me, understand closures. Could anyone help me? I can relate it to python decorators but, what I just don't see the entire picture." i am so confused
18:29:45 <elliott> i do not, for the life of me, understand the question
18:30:20 <kmc> Bike: good
18:30:33 <kmc> red eyes are a nice touch
18:30:59 <elliott> imo kmc should buy one of Bike's dad's shirts
18:31:07 <kmc> my friends in college had a big poster of bill clinton with a joint
18:31:08 <olsner> Bike: closures are like blue and red pipes, also known as monads
18:31:11 <Bike> they're pretty 'limited edition'
18:31:36 <kmc> closures are like blue and red bongs
18:31:41 <kmc> in that hitting them will fix your makefile
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18:38:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:39:13 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
18:39:38 <fungot> FireFly: the press cuttings, in professor angell's most recent hand; and made no explanation when i questioned him. not that his form of language was at all unusual, for he
18:43:02 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: What antediluvian abominations must we abide if we do not abate all traces of the dread weed?
18:43:03 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: coming of age in april, just before the vampirism broke out? the rifling of ezra weeden's ancient grave, and is finally discovered to be a veritable code signal, so that no sounds above a whisper were possible; digestion was incredibly prolonged and fnord, forerunners of the modern slate and fnord.
18:44:06 <Bike> i didn't know lovecraft wrote about vampirism
18:47:03 <Bike> haven't you ever read Illuminatus
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19:02:31 <Bike> probaby action
19:09:51 <fizzie> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/LOaa
19:10:38 <Bike> what happened last may oerjan
19:11:07 <fizzie> (Exercise for the reader: use extrapolation techniques to estimate the arrival of the hth singularity.)
19:11:47 <Bike> let's see, it goes 01, 04, 08. that's pretty much doubling.
19:11:55 <Tanea> fizzie: next thursday hth
19:12:10 <Bike> so in four months, 128% of oerjan's messages will be helping
19:12:57 <oerjan> Bike: i have a temporary workaround for that hth hth hth
19:15:40 <oerjan> > 1/0.00050428643469490671
19:15:52 <Bike> so the hth singularity is in 1982?
19:17:38 <oerjan> your rounding needs work hth
19:20:53 -!- xifeng has joined.
19:21:23 <oerjan> Bike: also i don't know, this is one of those cases where it would be nice to have the denominators
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19:32:20 <HackEgo> feth marseu gente rhenia cong gnader tal thol tenableu wcructive many tvho iece nick uigk ghy unrect jew che sclian sestrace print extuam bifburg swifesssenship
19:32:43 <FireFly> words seems related to bullshit(1)
19:32:49 -!- Tanea has joined.
19:33:03 <FireFly> http://man.aiju.de/1/bullshit that is
19:34:01 <oerjan> it's based on markov chains of letters, like fungot's blather is based on markov chains of words, afaik
19:34:02 <fungot> oerjan: the terrible old man. he saw now, in that baffling region beyond the first gate. it was the fnord, fnord.
19:34:56 <FireFly> I wonder how well markov chains of syllables would work out
19:35:36 <FireFly> The first issue is to split words into syllables
19:35:43 <Bike> 'probably easy'
19:36:12 <oerjan> but words form a monoid!
19:36:39 <FireFly> Hm, then it OUGHT TO BE easy
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19:43:08 <HackEgo> lag1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:43:26 <Tanea> Sweet Bro and Hellag1
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19:46:26 <Tanea> `welcome ffugencantbelay
19:46:27 <HackEgo> ffugencantbelay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:51:10 <FireFly> Maybe they were interested in the other kind of esoterica
19:53:24 <Bike> darn, i really wanted to talk about hermetic medicine. oh well, sorry to trouble you, bye!!
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19:56:31 <PonyPonyPony> Asking makes it clear that you are irrevocably locked in a matrix of solidity.
19:56:40 * Bike shakes head sadly
19:56:53 <HackEgo> 245) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity \ 274) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
19:57:17 <Bike> dude it's right there
19:57:20 <Bike> 'matrix of solidity'
19:57:44 <Tanea> It's even on the main page of the wiki
19:57:45 <ThatOtherPerson> It's so much not a phrase that one of the top Google hits for "matrix of solidity" is esolangs.org
19:58:30 <Tanea> We tend to use it a lot
19:58:30 <lambdabot> *** "solidity" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:58:30 <lambdabot> n 1: the consistency of a solid [syn: {solidity}, {solidness}]
19:58:30 <lambdabot> 2: state of having the interior filled with matter [ant:
19:59:29 <Bike> shut the damn hell?
20:00:04 <Tanea> I keep thinking wn stands for WikiNews
20:00:13 <Tanea> And then I get all confused when it's a dictionary
20:01:48 <zzo38> The other kind of esoteric is..... uh... it is "the other kind of esoterica", such as, other things.
20:02:03 <zzo38> However, there are other things on this channel too.
20:02:32 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: stuff the mutaween would beat the shit out of you for knowing
20:02:50 <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: we don't talk about the other kind of esoterica
20:03:36 <Bike> did i pronounce anything...
20:03:44 <olsner> ThatOtherPerson: if this was the channel for that kind of esoterica we could tell you
20:03:45 <zzo38> O, you mean the rules of Paranoia.
20:05:24 <xifeng> It's stuff to do with mystery religion, esoteric literature, magic, etc
20:06:28 <kmc> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alexgreycosm/entheon-the-alex-grey-visionary-art-experience
20:07:52 <Bike> ooh, a crazy with actual business sense, sign me up
20:08:04 <kmc> alex grey's art is awesomely un-subtle
20:08:17 <kmc> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FOG2zo3aUBc/TomkDyC3AHI/AAAAAAAAA7w/UGFu54hiYfo/s1600/alex-grey-albert-hofmann.jpeg
20:08:21 <Bike> are you sure because i have no idea what https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/540/100/468be0aa20b5f32bf1522f78ef1987da_large.png?1366833317 is saying
20:08:33 <Bike> ok, well, that's a bit more obvious
20:08:39 <kmc> "immmmmmmmmmmmm on drugggggggggggzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"
20:08:48 <kmc> http://americangallery.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/copulating.jpg uh nsfw, I guess?
20:08:55 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:08:58 <Bike> i've seen so many of these paintings
20:09:08 <kmc> i saw his gallery in NYC before it closed
20:09:10 <Bike> surrounded by 'wtf' of course and uncredited
20:09:25 <Bike> i like the wires in the copulation
20:09:30 <kmc> http://keepitight.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/alex_grey-artists_hand1.jpeg
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20:10:28 <Bike> this guy has films huh
20:11:00 <kmc> http://www.nathanspoor.com/images/Blisss_AlexGrey_4.jpg
20:11:08 <Bike> i like how there's an actual term for getting high as shit and painting
20:11:15 <Bike> 'visionary art', i've got a whole damn book of it
20:11:42 <kmc> heh fair enough
20:11:44 <Bike> there's a museum of it in like pennsylvania
20:11:53 <Bike> half made by people in asylums, it's great
20:12:02 <xifeng> There's one in Baltimore, too.
20:12:11 <Bike> have you ever wanted to see a Bush caricature with a pope hat shitting on a flag? then have i got the genre for you
20:12:26 <xifeng> Some pretty haunting stuff, mostly non-high people from strange backgrounds.
20:12:39 <Bike> yeah, lots of schizophrenics, which gets a bit sad
20:16:14 <ThatOtherPerson> Is it just me or does some of his work look slightly Hindu?
20:16:35 <zzo38> Vote in my polls on ifMUD.
20:16:48 <xifeng> There are also a lot of self-promoters who use the label as a marketing ploy. "I never learned how to draw, here's why that's a good thing"
20:18:46 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: http://kmrao.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mahabharata_war.jpg the resemblance is amazing
20:18:58 * impomatic has just received a copy of "Lost Treasures of Infocom volume 2" :-)
20:20:29 <zzo38> impomatic: Can you make a copy of the headers of each file?
20:22:39 <zzo38> The first 64 bytes of each story file is the header.
20:23:08 <impomatic> Okay, will do later. It's in the office at the moment.
20:23:17 <impomatic> Feel free to remind me if I forget.
20:23:23 <zzo38> (I think the extension is usually ".DAT" for Infocom story files, although other extensions are ".ZIP" and ".Z?")
20:24:29 <impomatic> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-Treasures-of-Infocom-II-Mac-/161017562410?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item257d65052a
20:24:36 <impomatic> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-Treasures-of-Infocom-Mac-/161017559981?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item257d64fbad
20:25:39 <zzo38> Except for version 6 games, it doesn't matter whether it is for Macintosh or PC or Commodore 64 or whatever; the story files will be the same for any computer.
20:25:54 <impomatic> zzo38: I assume you want the headers because you're looking for slightly different versions?
20:26:11 <zzo38> (The Z-machine version number is stored in the first byte of the story file.)
20:26:49 <impomatic> I've got the story files running on my Android tablet, Nintendo DS and PC. :-)
20:28:06 <zzo38> Can you get them to run on the Nintendo Family Computer?
20:28:37 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a807adb86169318f6fa991bb3240f266/tumblr_mit8ojvpyV1rsromyo1_500.jpg
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20:30:47 <zzo38> That is very good, but I want to be able to run it on older computers too.
20:32:48 <zzo38> Have you ever written any games for the Z-machine?
20:33:40 <impomatic> I'm also after some other classic adventure games, e.g. by Magnetic Scrolls and Level 9.
20:34:12 <impomatic> No, never written anything for the Z-Machine. I tried some of the earlier systems, The Quill, TADS, etc.
20:34:33 <impomatic> The I wrote a couple of adventures in assembly language :-) (Only one published)
20:34:42 <zzo38> I am writing a converter OASYS -> Z-machine. Perhaps other program can be made too, to convert the files for other system into Z-machine, too.
20:34:53 <zzo38> Assembly language for what computers?
20:40:07 <impomatic> PC. I started writing in Z80 for the ZX Spectrum but I didn't think anyone would be interested. So I switched to PC.
20:42:17 <zzo38> Even though object numbers in Z-machine go up to 65535, there is not enough RAM for 65535 objects, therefore I made Z-machine version 9 and version 10 which allow twice and quadruple amount of RAM.
20:43:44 <zzo38> (Z-machine versions 9 and 10 also support twice as many properties, although only the first 63 have default values.)
20:49:56 <zzo38> (The default values for the rest of the properties would overlap the object headers.)
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22:18:50 <Sgeo> "So glad that you rethought FTC [French Toast Crunch]! It really is one of the few redeeming qualities about Canada."
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22:55:50 <kmc> yessssss i saw a mourning dove and a bluejay and a baby rabbit
22:57:43 <Bike> were they in a band
22:58:09 <elliott> they were in port authority in the late 80s
22:58:20 <elliott> back when it was entirely made of small animals
22:58:21 <kmc> the bluejay was yelling at a robin though
23:00:09 <kmc> am i the god of the israelites now
23:00:36 <Bike> shouldn't the band be called like hrairhain or some shit
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23:01:49 <shachaf> but you can anything you want if you grow up hth
23:03:45 <kmc> and what does yawg stand for
23:04:12 <shachaf> do i have to expand everything around here
23:04:43 <Bike> can you expand the at sign
23:06:29 <shachaf> kmc: I didn't sleep all night and now I have an airplaneflight at 8:55.
23:06:40 <shachaf> Maybe I won't sleep all night again????????????
23:06:46 <Bike> rabbits always look terrified, it's a bit unsettling
23:06:50 <shachaf> Unless I sleep now, maybe.
23:07:28 <Fiora> yeah, there's a family of rabbits outside my work and I always get upset that I scare them off when I walk home :<
23:08:01 <Bike> shachaf: i'm only really an expert in elliottian sleep, but nonetheless i recommend as a layman that you should strongly consider sleeping
23:10:09 <shachaf> Bike: um, i recommend that too
23:10:50 <Bike> lay down in bed, close your eyes, and take a SHITLOAD of opiates
23:14:44 <olsner> or without the opiates if you're like a normal person
23:15:12 <shachaf> i'm not like a normal person and i'm not a big fan of opioids right now hth
23:15:54 <olsner> maybe without the opiates anyway, hth
23:16:31 <kmc> Bike: i think they are always terrified
23:16:38 <kmc> at least when there are huge lumbering apes around
23:17:00 <kmc> there are a bunch of rabbits that live behind the Stata Center at MIT
23:17:33 <Bike> probably, that's why it's unsettling
23:17:38 <Bike> "shit, am i doing this"
23:22:28 <Bike> are you terrified
23:23:36 <shachaf> i'm terrified of the unknown
23:23:41 <shachaf> i'm terrified of terror itself
23:24:04 <olsner> sounds like the definition of terror
23:24:42 <shachaf> i'm terrified of long fingernails, low-thread-count linen, and maps of jamaica
23:26:11 <olsner> perhaps Bike is what you should be terrified of
23:27:31 <elliott> the only thing we have to fear is fear itself and shachaf
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23:31:40 <HackEgo> BillyZane: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:32:25 <BillyZane> oh, this is a programming language?
23:33:56 <Koen_> it's a secret society for programming languages
23:34:08 <Koen_> for some values of "secret"
23:34:10 <Sgeo> It's not itself a programming language, but it's about programming languages. Specifically, those not particularly intended for practical use. Although we're rarely on topic.
23:34:46 <pikhq> I'm afraid we're more secrete than secret.
23:35:20 -!- shachaf has set topic: is always on topic | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:35:24 -!- shachaf has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:36:24 <coppro> it's so secret none of us know what it's actually for
23:36:34 <pikhq> Shouldn't that be HABEMVS DEBIAM?
23:37:03 <Bike> does that mean we secrete things or... whath does that mean
23:37:17 <Bike> elliott: imo make the channel +s for extra secretism.
23:37:36 <Bike> i don't even know what that does on freenode and that's ok
23:37:45 <BillyZane> i have a secret. i'm an idiot. i've discovered my intellectual plateau and it's not much higher than a dish washer
23:37:58 <Bike> you can put dishwashers pretty high up
23:38:13 <pikhq> Yeah, they are one of the greater kitchen appliances.
23:38:16 <Bike> they don't need to boil water or anything, you could have a dishwasher on top of K2 or whatever and it'd work, if you had power
23:38:26 <Bike> so aspire for your plateau to be as high as Leng
23:38:46 <shachaf> did you read the all-shirts comic yet
23:38:53 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=397
23:38:56 <Bike> are you asleep
23:39:29 <Bike> imo if you're not asleep you're a bad man
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23:45:44 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine now has four files. We should add some more, please.
23:46:44 <shachaf> Here's a file for you: 'zzo38\n\n\n<newline>'
23:46:52 <shachaf> (With no newline at the end.)
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23:53:29 * kmc using Newton's method to take cube roots of 500 digit numbers
23:53:32 <kmc> it's super effective!
23:54:33 <Bike> shachaf you seem pretty bad at sleeping
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23:57:47 <lambdabot> "C/C++ : A new language for the new Millennium" by Richard Heathfield in 2005-02 at <http://web.archive.org/web/20090421080714/http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/portable/c/c++/rfe00000.html>
23:59:00 <kmc> reverse reverse polish notation
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00:08:07 <kmc> lambdabot just sent the link
00:09:41 <copumpkin> I'm pretty awesome at coding in C/C++
00:10:18 <BillyZane> it's amazing when you learn something new
00:10:47 <BillyZane> i didn't know C/C++ was an actual language, i thought it referred to C and C++
00:10:58 <Bike> good thing we have this information database.
00:11:01 <Bike> @where smalltalk
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00:12:08 <Bike> I think http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk.html should be somewhere.
00:12:12 <Bike> http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk_files/dpbs_figure1.gif
00:13:37 <zzo38> shachaf: It doesn't work (obviously) because, it is not a proper format.
00:15:13 <zzo38> Don't you know that if you write HELP CMODE then it will tell you what +s is for?
00:15:29 <Bike> Oh, I did, but I forgot. Thanks.
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00:15:51 <Bike> "Channel will not be shown in /whois and /list etc." so, useless
00:16:02 <elliott> what if you have a super secret channel?
00:25:03 <zzo38> There is some new Pokemon game, I don't think it actually exist but they say it is available for PC, Nintendo DS, and GameCube. They also say, if you hold all the key except PrintScreen, ScrollLock, and Pause, you can make all of your pokemons at level 100.
00:26:18 <zzo38> If you delete a level 100 pokemon then the next one you catch will be level 101. If you sell 99 fuses to a store, go out, and come back in, they will sell you a Dark badge. If you sell all of the badges in the game (including Dark badge) to the same store, they will give you a free steel belt which maxes the stats of any pokemon it is attached to.
00:27:48 <zzo38> If you stand on your head, on top of the computer monitor, and say "bloobloo pie is good so I like it", then your older sister will come in and say "What the heck are you doing?" and then you will lose. In the GameCube version, if you name your first Pokemon by your mother's last name in Italian, that pokemon will have its highest form when you get it.
00:28:46 <zzo38> In the PC version, if you use an attack with 0 PP left, it will display the message "Sorry but your pokemon is tired of using that move and will attack you now. Good-bye." and then it will delete your save file and reboot the computer.
00:29:25 <Bike> And if you play the Lavender Town theme backwards a skeleton poops out?
00:29:43 <zzo38> It doesn't say that, but maybe.
00:31:39 <kmc> zzo38 is starting Pokérumours
00:31:53 <Bike> tell us about the pokégods, zzo.
00:32:19 <zzo38> I have also been told that your character's mother always walks into walls.
00:34:57 <kmc> sing us a song, you're the pokémon
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02:10:43 <kmc> keycap picture insert mode appreciation thread! ⎈⇧⇥␣←→↑↓⇞⇟⇱⇲⎀⌦↵⌫⎋
02:11:04 <Bike> are we... in a thread
02:11:13 <Lumpio-> itt lots of unicode characters
02:11:19 <Lumpio-> The first one to post a snowman gets a prize
02:11:35 <kmc> this channel is composed almost entirely of unicode characters
02:12:20 <Bike> some of the topic, because zzo38 always makes it shift-jis
02:12:31 <kmc> i don't have an example, but IRC does allow sending arbitrary bytes, and someone may have sent bytes intending them to represent a character which isn't in unicode
02:12:35 <kmc> like klingon letters
02:12:46 <kmc> shift-jis is an encoding for a subset of Unicode, isn't it
02:12:56 <kmc> (retroactively)
02:13:00 <kmc> also does he really do that
02:14:37 <zzo38> Shift-JIS isn't very good either; Shift-JIS does not follow principle of extended ASCII.
02:14:40 <pikhq> Sometimes an Xchat user emits Latin-1 instead.
02:14:48 <pikhq> Though, Latin-1 is just UCS-1.
02:15:06 <Bike> the ascii is good, the penis is evil
02:15:28 <pikhq> I dunno, penises are good.
02:17:13 <madb4rd> im glad to always have one within range
02:18:22 <Lumpio-> With about fifteen different kinds of modes and "locking shifts"
02:18:36 <Lumpio-> Because WE'RE JAPAN WE CAN'T DO IT THE EASY WAY
02:19:05 <HackEgo> T(?Prfώ[m0;hDK01T qh=`\^[l%F5")V/7,=ASq^CgHE^ɫ6>r-]=2rv+Gvj]^VE8$2%2Z_戅Tߞ+:eVJ7ind7Xxԕ6.GH \ .+KXmE^`79ؐ(Fڿ\(}χqyXA&o5(@.0ͩ["8&p!~u)"(3H
02:19:53 <kmc> ISO-2022 is ♫ the worst ♫
02:20:31 <pikhq> ISO 2022 almost makes sense when you know it can be 7-bit clean.
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02:20:57 <kmc> so can UTF-7 :)
02:21:50 <pikhq> Yeah, it's not Unicode so it sucks by default. :P
02:22:39 <zzo38> Unicode is bad too, though.
02:23:32 <Jafet> Japan still has the last laugh... on the emoji block.
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02:24:22 <Lumpio-> I think anything that requires 7-bit characters should be destroyed
02:24:46 <Lumpio-> Followed by some form of torture for whoever was still running such a system
02:25:02 <Bike> i think that conflicts with ascii!!
02:25:33 <kmc> i read "Java still has the last laugh"
02:26:50 <Jafet> That was probably sexist sorry
02:28:33 <zzo38> If something is requiring 7-bit characters doesn't necessarily make them bad
02:28:43 <zzo38> Or, even 6-bit or 5-bit
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02:32:01 <Jafet> > generalCategory '💩'
02:32:02 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:32:34 <Jafet> That character is 8-bit dirty
02:32:54 <Jafet> > generalCategory '\128169'
02:37:11 * kmc wonders if calling something "micro-optimization" implies disapproval
02:37:20 <kmc> there's definitely a place for micro-optimization
02:37:23 <Bike> contextual, i think
02:37:41 <Bike> usually i see 'premature optimization' as the disapproving one, since we all have a little knuth in our heads i guess?
02:37:56 <kmc> different meaning though, i think
02:47:32 <kmc> i guess there are a few different things people discourage
02:47:53 <kmc> optimizing before you need to, optimizing things that don't matter, writing overly clever code that the compiler would do better if you wrote it naively
02:47:59 <kmc> but each of these is contextual
02:48:52 <kmc> http://www.linux-kongress.org/2009/slides/compiler_survey_felix_von_leitner.pdf is a really nice slide deck about the last of those
02:49:03 <zzo38> I am sure, it does depend on circumstsances; premature optimization is not always bad.
02:49:07 <zzo38> But it is usually bad.
02:49:59 <Jafet> Premature optimization sounds premature
02:51:23 <kmc> if it's not bad then I would say it was not premature, although you can only say for sure in retrospect
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02:51:53 <elliott> premature optimisation is obviously bad by definition
02:51:58 <kmc> there can also be higher level effects like "if we let our programmers optimize this, they will be entertained now, and less stressed out later"
02:52:02 <zzo38> Well, OK, I suppose that is how you meant by "premature"; it makes sense.
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03:18:51 <kmc> iconv: conversion to `baudot' is not supported
03:20:38 <Fiora> "Note: ”rep ; ret” works around a shortcoming in the Opteron branch
03:20:39 <Fiora> prediction logic, saving a few cycles. Very few humans know this."
03:20:50 <Fiora> good thing I'm not actually human, nya!
03:22:27 <zzo38> It doesn't matter. It says very few, rather than nothing at all.
03:23:06 <Fiora> oh geez, people trying to ""optimize"" i*0x01010101
03:23:53 <zzo38> Many optimizations have to depend on the computer, meaning it will be suitable for assembly language but not necessarily in C.
03:24:39 <Bike> Fiora: ? like other than shifts or
03:25:45 <Fiora> I meant like, writing it in a fancier fashion to try to make it "faster"
03:25:50 <Fiora> instead of letting the compiler pick the right way
03:25:58 <Fiora> apparently in the thing kmc posted it made it worse in a lot of compilers
03:26:04 <Bike> the books i learned C from told me to do that
03:26:11 <Bike> ALSO the pope's twitter is really boring
03:26:29 <Fiora> (from like, an assembly point of view, imul with 0x01010101 will probably almost always be faster just because it's fewer uops, I think? so trying to force the compiler to do something more complicated feels wrong)
03:26:57 <Bike> That definitely seems like the sort of optimization that should be handled by the compiler.
03:27:09 <Fiora> yeah, it's basically an instruction selection issue, I think...
03:27:10 <zzo38> I really think there ought to be the way to specify multiple branch which the compiler can choose based on which is optimized and which does not result in compiler errors, in case one is error and another isn't.
03:27:56 <Fiora> I think you can sort of do that?
03:28:01 <Fiora> __builtin_constant_p or something like that
03:29:18 <zzo38> Well, you can in a few cases; not in all cases.
03:29:44 <Bike> i really hope my gsoc goes through so i can get Real Experience on compilers, which i will then never use in my career
03:30:49 <coppro> what did you apply to?
03:30:54 <zzo38> Another thing sometimes useful might be to specify zero or more "builtin meanings" of some function (whether or not it is inline), and then the compiler can use it for optimization, or replace it with native instructions, or whatever; such as BCD arithmetic functions
03:31:21 <elliott> Bike: you should apply for one of the haskell ones imho.
03:31:43 <Bike> my project is about making it possible to selectively enable optimization phases, and hopefully have a protocol for optimizations to make everything less of a hacked up horrible mess
03:31:52 <Bike> elliott: you? humble?
03:34:37 <elliott> Bike: in my hexcellent opinion
03:34:52 <Bike> does that mean you're a hexmage
03:35:25 <Bike> do you live in yourself
03:35:40 <Bike> also a guy mentioned edwardk possibly helping with the sbcl project which was weird
03:36:26 <coppro> elliott: are you a gsco mentor yet?
03:39:38 <elliott> 6. What are the eligibility requirements for mentors?
03:39:39 <elliott> Representatives and mentors for the organizations must be at least 18 years old.
03:39:47 <elliott> looks like I couldn't be even if I wanted to, which I don't
03:39:52 <Bike> i thought you were 18 now
03:40:06 <Bike> also imnho you should be a mentor for a haskell one
03:40:11 <Bike> what are the haskell ones, btw
03:40:16 <elliott> uh there's a lot of shit i think
03:40:33 <elliott> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/haskell
03:40:45 <elliott> except there's more stuff that's just not accepted yet or something i guess?
03:41:07 <Bike> Patch Index Optimization for darcs, how exciting
03:42:10 <Bike> anyway aren't you like a wunderkid or something. i heard you rewrote ghc from scratch once
03:43:25 <elliott> i don't quite see how this makes me 18
03:43:47 <Bike> if a google person disagrees you just hackinate them?
03:43:57 <Bike> i don't know i'm not a wündékĩd
03:43:58 <elliott> well also i don't want to mentor????
03:44:11 <elliott> you have to like deal with a student
03:44:17 <Bike> working with idiot undergrads (me) is the most fun
03:44:23 <coppro> you can get away with pretending
03:44:29 <coppro> Bike: they might not even be undergrads yet!
03:44:29 <elliott> okay i'd do it if it was you because i'd be able to be an asshole to you
03:44:59 <Bike> yeah i actually haven't attended school in like a year but it works anyway
03:45:19 <elliott> wow Bike don't you want to be a biologist
03:45:32 <Bike> as a biologist i sit around in grass watching bugs
03:45:37 <Bike> that's what biologists do!
03:45:59 <coppro> yup, that's all they do
03:46:08 <coppro> I know someone in biology
03:46:40 <Bike> for what, saying she stared at bugs all day?
03:47:29 <coppro> I'm not sure she yelled at me
03:47:33 <elliott> Bike: have you done any `'`'field work`'`'`
03:47:36 <coppro> she certainly yelled at other people though!
03:47:42 <coppro> Bike: I stare at bugs all day!
03:48:19 <Bike> i was a CS major so... no
03:48:58 <elliott> Bike: imo your biologist story has major inconsistencie
03:49:05 <Bike> luckily the campus i'll be schooled at has exciting fieldy classes like ones on how to handle cow semen
03:49:34 <coppro> she was my stage manager :(
03:49:46 <Bike> elliott: the major inconsistencies consist of: me being a loser
03:50:31 <elliott> imo, almost as much of a loser as i am
03:51:02 <Bike> that's pretty losery
03:51:09 <kmc> itt we yell at each other (perpetual flamewar)
03:51:11 <Bike> have you considered becoming a sociologist
03:51:19 <elliott> being a sociologist doesn't sound very fun
03:51:36 <Bike> neither does being a loser
03:52:03 <elliott> it's the only thing where you can be as lazy and useless as shit and it actually makes you better at doing the thing you're doing!
03:52:19 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/302c3487216268f26480
03:52:43 <coppro> i feel at this point that every major's terrible is appropriate
03:52:55 <elliott> kmc: i observe a decrease in colon use
03:53:12 <Bike> 21:56 < kmc> itt: bicycle day is every day <-- good day
03:53:28 <Bike> elliott: this data you're goggling seems rather... sociological... wouldn't you say
03:53:36 <kmc> elliott: i saw an infomercial today for a product called COLON FLOW, do you think that would help
03:53:52 <elliott> Bike: more like kmcological
03:54:12 <kmc> no audio but the 3d rendered large intestine made it pretty clear
03:54:22 <elliott> i, too, have a 3d rendered large intestine
03:54:53 <elliott> kmc: btw you should set your client to elide the space after <
03:55:38 <Bike> `pastequotes zzo38
03:55:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32319
03:56:45 <Bike> kmc: oh hey "pretty clear" i just got that
03:58:54 <Bike> `pastequotes Bike
03:59:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21104
03:59:15 <elliott> oh was that an intentional joke
03:59:31 <Bike> the joke is bowel problems
03:59:37 <Bike> also that encoding problem should stop being a problem.
03:59:40 <coppro> I have to say that `pastquotes zzo38 is a pretty good joke
04:01:38 <shachaf> Bike: hi i slept for a bit but now i'm awake again????????? and i guess i'll be awake "alnight"
04:03:00 <shachaf> I have a flight leaving SJC in 12 hours.
04:03:21 <Bike> well, i guess you could sleep on the plane
04:03:27 <Bike> are you transporting yourself to the air port?
04:04:45 <shachaf> I'm being carried on the back of an elephant like any civilized person.
04:05:04 <shachaf> (and by elephant i mean CALTRAAAAAAIN and by back i mean inside)
04:05:54 <Bike> don't miss your flight
04:06:06 <kmc> don't trainsurf caltrain
04:07:10 <shachaf> Should I wait for a Union Pacific train instead?
04:07:50 <shachaf> have you seen one of those on the caltrain tracks "its gr8"
04:08:50 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/toddler-junkie-immediately-hooked-on-looking-at-tr,32025/ = me
04:10:04 <shachaf> Which of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railfan does kmc do?
04:12:45 <kmc> yeah there is a hierarchy of railfans not unlike http://brunching.com/images/geekchartbig.gif
04:13:13 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8_nqTVhDPo
04:13:52 <elliott> is kmc the kind that's addicted to heroin and dies
04:13:59 <elliott> n.b. i've never read/seen trainspotting
04:14:25 <elliott> A WAG-5 in Araku Valley near Vizag, India—a paradise for trainspotters.
04:14:30 <shachaf> elliott: oh yeah well i didn't even get the reference when i first read that article!!
04:14:33 <Bike> Amateur SF/Fantasy Artists Who Can't Get Breasts Right <-- redundant
04:14:43 <kmc> coppro: nice
04:15:15 <kmc> i'm mainly interested in rapid transit systems and their different peculiar properties
04:15:33 <kmc> routes and fixed infrastructure and the history of that
04:15:51 <kmc> i don't care much about the rolling stock.... there are people who make it a goal to photograph every numbered car on the NYC subway, i think that's mad
04:16:05 <kmc> i did go out of my way to ride some routes that weren't normally in use, but that was mainly because lexande was going
04:16:14 <kmc> he has the goals of riding every route segment on various systems
04:18:12 <shachaf> hey kmc have u programed ruby while being on a train..........
04:18:27 <shachaf> the joke is ruby on rails tht
04:19:03 <kmc> funny joek
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04:21:44 <Bike> i'm not sure whether roadfanning is weirder or not than trainfanning
04:22:44 <coppro> Bike: you ahould dedicate the remainder of your life to developing a to-scale model train set of the entire UK network
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04:24:30 <shachaf> Have you considered your Internet connection's impure? hth
04:24:38 <elliott> what do i do to get my server on testing again
04:24:41 <Bike> i will purify the world
04:27:12 <coppro> Bike: why is the Tube impure?
04:27:15 <pikhq> elliott: s/wheezy/jessie/g on sources.list
04:28:07 <Bike> these things just happen.
04:28:19 <shachaf> %s/wheezy/testing/g even better??
04:28:46 <pikhq> coppro: He was typing vi I think. :)
04:28:56 <coppro> but that requires opening vim
04:29:18 <coppro> the best is "sed s/wheezy/testing/g sources.list | sponge sources.list"
04:30:07 <kmc> so fuck that tube, fuck it so loudly that no-one can sleep, tubefucker
04:30:27 <kmc> coppro: or sed -i
04:30:38 <kmc> but ++ anyway for sponge, sponge is teh best
04:30:50 <kmc> that command is sponge-worthy (timely seinfeld reference)
04:31:07 <Bike> what is sponge
04:31:24 <elliott> Mosh: You have 8 detached Mosh sessions on this server, with PIDs:
04:31:30 <Bike> No manual entry for sponge
04:31:31 <elliott> kmc: can I pay you to do something about this fucking message
04:31:31 <kmc> kill them all
04:31:37 <elliott> yes I know but I'm too lazy
04:31:43 <coppro> Bike: http://bit.ly/10d9apo hth
04:31:47 <elliott> the only downside is that it's a bunch of blue when I log in after all
04:31:57 <elliott> btw how does it MITM that message in anyway?
04:31:59 <kmc> ssh host --server='killall mosh-server; mosh-server'
04:32:08 <kmc> it just writes it to your terminal or something
04:32:10 <coppro> Bike: you dumabass you typed it wrong
04:32:14 <elliott> well how does it know when to write it
04:32:16 <kmc> er my cmd shld be mosh host -- ...
04:32:18 <elliott> like it comes after the motd but before the prompt
04:32:26 <Bike> Spong Hill is an Anglo-Saxon cemetery site located at North Elmham in Norfolk, England. The largest Early Anglo-Saxon burial site ever excavated, it contains within it 2259 cremations and 57 inhumations. The site at Spong Hill consisted of two cemeteries, a large cremation cemetery and a smaller, 6th century cemetery of 57 inhumations. Several of the graves were covered by small barrows and others were marked by the use of coffins.
04:32:29 <kmc> oh well mosh-server is responsible for printing the motd
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04:32:32 <elliott> killall mosh-server sounds sort of bad since i have my irc client moshed in in another window
04:32:35 <kmc> as is /usr/bin/sshd
04:32:41 <kmc> elliott: well use screen
04:32:55 <elliott> imo i like having multiple windows and complaining
04:32:57 <pikhq> elliott: motd is displayed by the program logging you in.
04:33:20 <elliott> uh security.debian.org has testing/updates right
04:33:22 <shachaf> Bike: What should I do in NY?
04:33:26 <pikhq> Incidentally, this means a buffer overflow exploit could work using that if somehow you can write motd. :P
04:33:33 <Bike> shachaf: cocaine
04:33:41 <elliott> btw is putting "testing" in there unapproved or something
04:33:46 <elliott> istr using the release name for a reason
04:33:58 <Bike> so that you'd hve this lovely conversation later
04:34:14 <pikhq> elliott: Basically they tell you not to. The assumption is that you'll be on testing until it becomes stable in the months leading up to a stable release.
04:34:27 <pikhq> Rather than what you're doing, which is basically using testing as a rolling release.
04:34:37 <Bike> fight the man elliott
04:34:37 <elliott> okay well i will just set it to jessie
04:34:39 <elliott> to maintain my debian cred
04:34:40 <Bike> test the shit out of that software
04:34:45 <coppro> also to avoid accidentally causing your system to upgrade entirely while you aren't paying attention
04:34:48 <pikhq> I've got it set to sid. :P
04:34:50 <coppro> which can lead to poor results
04:34:52 <Bike> you must be on the knifely bleeddestroying edge
04:34:55 <elliott> sid sounds bad for my server
04:35:03 <kmc> they should rename sid to yolo
04:35:04 <pikhq> Yeah, not for a server.
04:35:09 <coppro> I need to de-ubuntu and en-debian my laptop
04:35:10 <elliott> kmc: pretty sure that's experimental
04:35:12 <kmc> or rename experimental to yolo
04:35:13 <pikhq> sid's just fine on a desktop.
04:35:22 <kmc> pikhq: unless you use nvidia binary drivers lolololol
04:35:29 <Bike> maybe i should figure out my distro sometime
04:35:40 <elliott> i use arch locally and debian on my server
04:35:41 <Bike> i'm pretty sure the software of this thing is just a joke at my expense though.
04:35:49 <pikhq> kmc: Two things: first, I use AMD. Second, surely you'd run those with DKMS.
04:35:50 <elliott> The following NEW packages will be installed: libsigsegv2 python-six
04:35:51 <kmc> every time I run dist-upgrade it's like I'm cranking up a large spring which will propell a heavy object at my balls at some indeterminate point in the future
04:35:55 <elliott> is python-six like python 3 * 2
04:36:04 <kmc> tangos on your six
04:36:05 <Bike> i thought they were at python like. three
04:36:06 <pikhq> Meaning that you just get a module recompile each kernel upgrade.
04:36:12 <elliott> Six is a Python 2 and 3 compatibility library. It provides utility
04:36:12 <elliott> functions for smoothing over the differences between the Python versions
04:36:12 <elliott> with the goal of writing Python code that is compatible on both Python
04:36:15 <kmc> six is a 2/3 compatibility libraryrrrrrr
04:36:17 <elliott> BOOOORING IM SNORING AND SNOOZING TO DEATHHHH
04:36:26 <elliott> kmc: are those "r"s you giving up on how boring it is
04:36:41 <Bike> for some reason in the last few months my 'i don't know what i'm doing' update procedure has said i'm fully updated
04:36:44 <kmc> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuurp
04:36:46 <shachaf> more like python 0.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
04:36:49 <Bike> i guess i should probably be concerned about that
04:36:54 <kmc> the python of the beast
04:36:59 <elliott> Bike: what do you even use
04:37:03 <Bike> ubuntu, i think
04:37:15 <elliott> i should use nixos on esolangs.org
04:37:15 <Bike> "W: Failed to fetch http://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/natty/main/source/Sources 404 Not Found" oh i guess that's probably a problem
04:37:18 <elliott> that would be quite 'hip' i think
04:37:23 <kmc> dyk snakes have livers but it's differently shaped than other animals on account of a snake is shaped like a tube
04:37:27 <kmc> til this today
04:37:37 <elliott> kmc: thanks for the info re: snakes being tube-shaped
04:37:48 <kmc> a delicious tube of meat
04:37:55 <pikhq> kmc: I thought God just cut their legs off in ovum.
04:37:57 <kmc> nature's slim jim
04:38:00 <elliott> turns into a jerkcity line if you s/snakes/cocks/
04:38:02 <elliott> and then maybe s/ being.*//
04:38:06 <kmc> a delicious tube of cocks
04:38:07 <Bike> better: snakes only have one lung so that they can breathe and move simultaneously
04:38:11 <Bike> major innovation
04:38:23 <coppro> Bike: innovation.isotropic.org
04:38:31 <Bike> is that a "phish" site
04:38:32 <shachaf> kmc: what happened to "shachaf: "
04:38:43 <elliott> 3% [4 findutils 287 kB/624 kB 46%] 18.1 kB/s 1h 15min 32s
04:38:50 <elliott> why the fuck does my server have a shitty connection to the repos
04:39:05 <elliott> oh maybe it is because i am using the swedish server and sweden hates me
04:39:13 <kmc> uh i last said "shachaf: " vry recently..................................
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04:39:23 <elliott> @tell ais523 yo, you get to determine the accuracy of http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=INTERCAL&curid=1040&diff=36183&oldid=35920
04:39:26 <shachaf> that never stopped you before
04:39:33 <kmc> lol sweden
04:39:33 <shachaf> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/I6ROu7Q.png http://i.imgur.com/rqlnSnf.jpg hth
04:39:44 <elliott> shachaf: i already have those moneys
04:39:49 <kmc> 50 totally legit monqys
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04:40:08 <Bike> i guess i've probably been using the same software for a few months without upgrading
04:40:15 <Bike> this will probably destroy me long term or something won't it
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04:40:33 <shachaf> mnoqy: hmm you better work on that
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04:40:41 <shachaf> i want 124% by next friday
04:40:42 <elliott> what's the cool bsd these days
04:40:44 <Bike> elliott: man. great edit.
04:40:48 <elliott> maybe i should switch solidity over to that one
04:41:03 <elliott> like debian is just so ugh
04:41:05 <kmc> elliott: Debian kFreeBSD
04:41:07 <Bike> coppro i need Serious Upgrade Help here not "sites"
04:41:17 <kmc> HOT SINGLES ARE WAITING TO CHAT WITH YOU ABOUT DEBIAN
04:41:22 <elliott> kmc: imo, debian hurd is a better bsd than debian kfreebsd
04:41:32 <Bike> are distros even real
04:41:33 <coppro> elliott: run gnu instead
04:41:43 <shachaf> kmc: elliott doesn't care about singles anymore. talk to him when you have hot twenties and hot fifties
04:41:51 -!- augur has joined.
04:42:03 <Bike> excuse me sir the operating system is called called called
04:42:17 <kmc> Tens and twenties, what's so funny, fucking twenty ten
04:42:24 <elliott> coppro: pretty sure debian is gnu
04:42:30 <elliott> it's explicitly branded as gnu in fact
04:42:33 <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
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04:42:47 <Bike> has mosh been ported to grub
04:42:53 <elliott> well "just running gnu" means you're without a kernel
04:43:02 -!- augur has joined.
04:43:02 * pikhq looks forward to the 20 hot men and women waiting to chat with me about Debian.
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04:43:24 <kmc> Bike: uh Grub fixed the bug that was making Mosh not build, but I dunno if anyone has actually tried it
04:43:28 <shachaf> pikhq: um they want to chat with elliott not you
04:43:30 <Bike> why don't you use a Truly Free distro like... triskelion?
04:43:33 * kmc will chat with pikhq about Debian, but I dunno if I'm hot?
04:43:44 <Bike> smoking hot singles the joke is weed
04:44:08 <shachaf> Bike: hang on hang on, that makes you violent
04:44:20 <Bike> kmc are you violent
04:44:40 <Bike> pseudo hashtag here*
04:44:44 <kmc> also i dont even smoke much weed :(
04:44:47 <kmc> but that might change
04:44:51 <Bike> do you smoke... gana
04:44:52 <kmc> if i move to SAN FRANCISCO
04:45:01 <Bike> i actually don't know if that's slang for... anything
04:45:03 <Bike> i'm bad at drugs.
04:45:08 <Bike> shachaf: my dad has a bumper sticker from there
04:45:18 <shachaf> Weed, CA is also the town they were running away from(/to???????) in that one book.
04:45:30 <shachaf> As I figured out a few years later.
04:45:46 <kmc> Bike's dad collects / manufactures weed joke merchandise???
04:45:47 <lambdabot> *** "ganja" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
04:45:48 <lambdabot> n 1: a strong-smelling plant from whose dried leaves a number of
04:45:48 <lambdabot> euphoriant and hallucinogenic drugs are prepared [syn:
04:45:48 <lambdabot> {marijuana}, {marihuana}, {ganja}, {Cannabis sativa}]
04:45:56 <Bike> wow it really is marijuana
04:45:57 <kmc> "its not a jamaican word and its not slang, its a SANSKRIT(the original indic language) word for hemp. dumbasses."
04:46:09 <Bike> the original indic language, lol
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04:46:22 <kmc> गांजा / গাঁজা
04:46:50 <Bike> also i forgot the name of the language fa- oh right dravidian
04:46:57 <Bike> fuck you dravidians, sanskriters are in this to win it
04:46:58 <kmc> #fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
04:47:08 <Bike> wait. sanskriteers.
04:47:33 <Bike> i can't believe i'd never thought of it before it;s beautiful
04:48:27 <Bike> panini was a sanskriteer, we're all sanskriteers deep down
04:48:55 <Bike> no it's like a mouseketeer
04:48:58 <Bike> but for sanskritt
04:49:05 <mnoqy> paninis what happens when you put a sandwich in a pressure cooker right??? i've never seen one that's just a rumor
04:49:18 <kmc> sounds dangerous
04:49:18 <Bike> no not the sandwiches, the guy
04:49:21 <Bike> he invented language
04:49:44 <elliott> don't care about computers any more
04:49:57 <Bike> dude you are talking to the wrong guy about caring about computers
04:49:58 <shachaf> elliott: hey should i upgrade it
04:50:02 <Bike> maybe you could find someone on "freenode" who cares?
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04:50:23 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cangjie2.jpg this is me right now
04:50:33 <Bike> i'm wearing a suit made of leaves
04:50:34 <elliott> five fucks away from installing ubuntu
04:50:39 <elliott> and using the default everything
04:50:52 <elliott> we're talking using pidgin to irc levels of not caring about computers here
04:51:01 <mnoqy> how many fucks per second are we talking here
04:51:05 <Bike> that's pretty mean!
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04:51:14 <kmc> `addquote <elliott> five fucks away from installing ubuntu
04:51:17 <Bike> i know like a billion pidgin users
04:51:18 <HackEgo> 1032) <elliott> five fucks away from installing ubuntu
04:51:33 -!- augur has joined.
04:51:36 <elliott> Bike: they're all disgusting, imo
04:51:54 <Bike> what if i wrote pidgin in haskell
04:51:55 <kmc> i use finch which is like hipster version of pigin!!!!! also v. buggy
04:52:08 <elliott> kmc: ok but you don't use it to irc do you
04:52:09 <Bike> there are more birds
04:52:13 <Bike> how about like a fucking swallow
04:52:17 <kmc> i saw birds toay
04:52:21 <Bike> or is that an ubuntu release or whatever
04:53:00 <mnoqy> usually i see birds but i don';t tthink i saw any today what a wEIRD day
04:53:18 <Bike> 21:51 [freenode] shachaf [~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf] requested unknown CTCP OHNO from Bike:
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04:53:29 <elliott> dude cut it out with the copying the irc colours thing it's disturbing
04:53:31 <Bike> i'm getting good at this color thing.
04:53:52 <Bike> why do you think the [] are bolded
04:54:01 <Bike> oops i missed the bars on... hm
04:54:13 <Bike> 21:51 [freenode] shachaf [~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf] requested unknown CTCP OHNO from Bike:
04:54:17 <elliott> kmc: what window manager do you use
04:54:25 <kmc> eks moan add
04:55:12 <elliott> kmc: wow me too What A Coincide
04:55:46 <Bike> 21:51 [freenode] shachaf [~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf] requested unknown CTCP TRAITOR from Bike:
04:55:54 <elliott> seriously though, ugh, computers
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04:56:35 <Bike> i think we could all stand to dijkstra it up for a bit
04:56:43 <Bike> by which i mean yell at undergrads for being stupid
04:57:03 <elliott> btw why was dijkstra so cool??
04:57:07 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=392
04:57:11 <Bike> 21:56 [freenode] CTCP WHATISGOINGONDOTDOTDOTDOTDOT reply from shachaf:
04:57:21 <kmc> how do i know if i'm a good writer
04:57:23 <Bike> elliott that's illegal.
04:57:31 <Bike> kmc: you get paid
04:57:34 <elliott> Bike: just like the mariḧuana
04:57:41 <shachaf> Bike: um that's a sign of selling out
04:57:51 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BDyFuDxA-I
04:57:55 <Bike> but you can't sell out if you're not good
04:58:15 <elliott> so can i pay someone to like
04:58:22 <elliott> so i just never have to think about it
04:58:36 <Bike> i believe that's referred to as "management" in the sciences
04:58:55 <Bike> or "delegation"
04:58:58 <elliott> the things i want to do with computers are;
04:59:05 <elliott> that was meant to be a colon fyi
04:59:11 <Bike> maybe you should be a tenured professor?
04:59:17 <Bike> i hear all they do is make grad students do things
04:59:25 <elliott> do astronomers have people to like
04:59:27 <shachaf> kmc: You're talking about handwriting,r ight?
04:59:28 <elliott> maintain their telescopes for them
04:59:29 <Bike> about computers! if you'rre a professor of computerrrs
04:59:34 <shachaf> kmc: Because Dijkstra had good handwriting.
04:59:42 <shachaf> In fact: The best handwriting?
04:59:48 <elliott> Bike: don't i have to do work for that
04:59:52 <Bike> elliott: i have an idea: do something with computers that isn't computers.
05:00:13 <Bike> are you serious
05:00:18 <elliott> don't make the joke you're about to
05:00:19 <Bike> i've never seen someone actually type a 1 by mistake
05:00:33 <elliott> you always look like a loser
05:00:41 <shachaf> elliott: That's not a joke.
05:00:43 <Bike> elliott you don't look like anything
05:00:46 <shachaf> That's just insulting someone.
05:00:58 <shachaf> It's a popular IRC hobby for some reason but it's not really a joke.
05:01:02 <Bike> well actually you look like 22:00 < elliott> NO!!!1
05:01:29 <Bike> I guess you're green. Maybe you could get that checked out. I think it means you're sick?
05:01:46 <elliott> Bike: fucking fix your client to get rid of that space
05:01:52 <elliott> i realise you're a biologist so it's hard
05:02:06 <elliott> btw green is the colour for when someone mentions your name
05:02:09 <elliott> as all cool.theme users now
05:02:09 <Bike> elliott, i've heard recently from a trusted confidant that re: computers: fuck computers
05:02:12 <elliott> maybe it's in the default theme too idk
05:02:23 <shachaf> The default theme is yellow.
05:02:36 <elliott> the default irssi theme is awful
05:02:50 <Bike> elliott why do you think so many things are awful?
05:02:53 <Bike> were you awfulled as a child
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05:03:58 <elliott> what does awfulling entail here exactly
05:04:20 <Bike> I don't know. I was never awfulled.
05:04:50 <Bike> That's why nowadays, I'm not a jerkface like some people who were.
05:06:27 <shachaf> Bike: Calling people a jerkface makes you a jerkface. Jerkface.
05:06:47 <Bike> I'm sorry to hear that.
05:09:53 <elliott> you're actually a jerkface
05:09:58 <elliott> despite alos being a ibciyle
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05:10:24 <Bike> I don't even have a face.
05:11:22 <shachaf> look at my nice face: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
05:13:57 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Carpenter_bee_head_and_compound_eyes.jpg
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05:32:40 <elliott> does anyone know what i should read to learn about bidirectional type checking
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05:34:25 <shachaf> imo write something to teach about bidirectional type checking
05:35:40 <elliott> well unfortunately I don't quite know what the deal is!
05:35:58 <shachaf> the joke is "bi di re ct io na l\0"
05:38:01 <elliott> I am not any good at jokes shachaf
05:39:08 <shachaf> elliott: Jokes shachaf isn't any good at you, either.
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06:13:12 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Neverhood&diff=535583641&oldid=534367896 :-(
06:13:17 <shachaf> oerjan: Just look at that.
06:13:38 <shachaf> It's not vandalism. It's worse.
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06:18:09 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean, just look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/67.190.221.99
06:18:43 <shachaf> These people also linked to that website and seem to speak English about as well as the people on that website.
06:20:26 <shachaf> oerjan: This spam really irritates me. And the awful self-promotion.
06:20:37 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm almost tempted to edit it by myself.
06:22:07 <Jafet> Remember to wear a hostmask
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06:38:14 <HackEgo> 143) <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible" \ 164) <Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol \ 241) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want. \ 492) <Sgeo>
06:38:27 <shachaf> `run quote "don't want" | grep zzo
06:38:29 <HackEgo> 241) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
06:38:44 <shachaf> Didn't he have another quote?
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06:45:15 <elliott> The following packages will be REMOVED: less
06:45:18 <elliott> kmc: why does debian want to do this
06:51:41 <Jafet> Because http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/4/42/110Weezing.png
06:54:11 <elliott> shachaf: do you actually use more
06:55:26 <shachaf> http://www.joystiq.com/2013/04/16/armikrog-is-the-new-clay-adventure-game-from-the-neverhood-creat/
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07:01:58 <elliott> The following packages have unmet dependencies: man-db : Breaks: less (< 456) but 444-4 is to be installed
07:02:19 <elliott> why does man-db break less < 456 but less >= 456 isn't present
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07:20:05 <coppro> because aptitude can't do dependencies
07:24:37 <coppro> uh, then because package maintainers are morons
07:24:54 <coppro> and 444-4 confuses debian versionin
07:25:31 <coppro> I'm grasping at straws
07:25:34 <coppro> because it's half past 3
07:25:39 <coppro> and I don't want to be up in 4 hours
07:25:41 <coppro> so I'm staying up later
07:25:45 <coppro> does that make any sense?
07:27:39 <elliott> "Luthiers seem, however, to be undeterred by either practicality, or by the limits of human anatomy, and have produced instruments with even more necks." -- Wikipedia
07:27:52 <elliott> is there a blog with just good quotes from wikipedia
07:28:46 <elliott> pikhq: is it supported to just get a single package from sid
07:28:52 <elliott> it looks like the relevant version of less is in sid
07:28:55 <elliott> and i'd quite like to have less
07:29:08 <coppro> elliott: it could also be that they broke testing again
07:29:13 <coppro> though that seems unlikely
07:29:22 <coppro> you should go to #debian
07:29:23 <elliott> well it's probably my fault for doing dist-upgrade and saying yeah sure remove less
07:29:28 <coppro> more IRC channels will always help
07:29:31 <elliott> aqs opposed to saying no i don't need the new man-db right now
07:29:31 <coppro> oh why the fuck did you do that?
07:29:39 <elliott> well because i wanted to know why it wanted to uninstall less
07:29:45 <elliott> so i figured i'd upgrade and then try and install less
07:31:44 <coppro> elliott: try installing less and man-db simultaneously
07:32:32 <coppro> yeah, so man-db breaks less < 456
07:32:46 <coppro> so you'd have to downgrade man-db or something?
07:33:22 <coppro> or just figure out why the fuck less is installing something ancient
07:34:31 <elliott> i hear downgrades "aren't supported"
07:34:41 <elliott> it seems like the less in testing is just < 456 and it's as simple as that
07:35:32 <coppro> something is weird here
07:35:37 <fizzie> That's weird; packages.debian.org suggests that man-db just suggests 'less' with no version requirements.
07:36:04 <fizzie> (444-4 is the version of less in wheezy for sure.)
07:36:19 <coppro> fizzie: habemus debiam, dude
07:36:25 <coppro> fizzie: packages does not list breaks: dependencies
07:41:11 <fizzie> Well, debian/control of man-db_2.6.2-1_amd64.deb (which is what's in wheezy) does not have any Conflicts: about less either, and just "Suggests: less".
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07:41:34 <elliott> fizzie: well, wheezy isn't testing any more
07:43:24 <fizzie> Oh, right. I guess that version (2.6.3-3) indeed does break less << 456.
07:48:37 <fizzie> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=695361#39 I guess they just like breaking things.
07:52:54 <coppro> elliott: install more imo
07:52:56 <fizzie> Possibly you just wait for them to fix it instead of messing everything up? I mean, the last message promises a NMU in "about 24h".
07:53:18 <elliott> fizzie: well I kind of want less
07:54:52 <fizzie> I guess you could install the sid less 456-1, then.
07:55:52 <elliott> I don't know how to do that :(
07:56:42 <fizzie> I used to have an apt pinning setup for doing that sort of stuff, but no longer. (The easy but crummy way is just to download and dpkg -i the .deb, of course.)
07:57:14 <coppro> elliott: download the package from packages.debian.org
07:57:51 <elliott> that's a bit manual for my tastes!!
07:57:56 <fizzie> http://jaqque.sbih.org/kplug/apt-pinning.html is the fancy way.
07:58:41 <fizzie> (Though I suppose these days it'd be an /etc/apt/preferences.d/99pinning file, instead of lines in /etc/apt/preferences.)
07:59:05 <coppro> elliott: you wouldn't like organs then
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08:17:51 <shachaf> I haven't even worked on it all day.
08:18:39 <Taneb> I would have worked on it in my dreams, but my brother told me to sell my bike chain on eBay so I got distracted
08:19:23 <shachaf> You can look at what I have so far.
08:21:14 <shachaf> what kind of meter is this anyway
08:21:54 <shachaf> alternating paeonic tetrameter and iambic pentameter
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08:33:00 <shachaf> Taneb: English is awful. :-(
08:33:34 <Taneb> Nah, Australian is much nicer
08:34:30 <Taneb> imo everyone should learn Australian
08:35:23 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you should finish what I started?
08:35:30 <shachaf> I've lost the desire to write more.
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09:35:57 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb for saturn I think we'll use SFML; it is for C++ and allows you to create multiple windows... btw, how's hs-dcpu coming along?
09:36:05 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:36:13 <lambdabot> ThatOtherPerson said 16s ago: for saturn I think we'll use SFML; it is for C++ and allows you to create multiple windows... btw, how's hs-dcpu coming along?
09:36:35 <Taneb> shachaf: you have gobby open, you can look at it
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10:57:00 <elliott> Taneb: what's a good name for a language
11:00:22 <Jafet> `words --esolangs 20
11:00:24 <HackEgo> bloux tlwnn 1337 cobol fillia tran flum misc geom cobol snack p1eq novich stling dog piet rainfuck bak arcal minimal
11:02:53 <HackEgo> sustnaulte fiftymiya tion peria foca labo humm den dulationg koutbroydtre dextrach thi lisoldr diwickli sity orn sty laxing cta caulye laba incilit godi maysan kaswcd
11:03:41 <Taneb> How about Portinatx?
11:04:38 <elliott> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
11:05:09 <HackEgo> bin/words: a /usr/bin/perl script text executable
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11:20:16 <Jafet> `words --gaelic --esolangs 50
11:20:17 <HackEgo> undeviat sendstuit top hadh-creic lon sot goinn stàmp eidh xbf pavity froillgolfuck acanack! cisde dhànainn rin atter òr faran trith 2050706 fiod rain versepollt chàrlan
11:20:33 <Taneb> `words --lojban 50
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13:08:23 <oerjan> <FireFly> Maybe they were interested in the other kind of esoterica <-- i hear the dalnet channel is tiny, it probably doesn't have the critical mass to keep the people passing to it through here :(
13:08:59 <elliott> oerjan: clearly we should promote it on the wiki.
13:11:04 <oerjan> elliott: hm i find it somewhat less likely someone seeking the other kind of esoterica would find the wiki before something actually relevant
13:12:07 <oerjan> (yes i realize you were joking)
13:12:23 <fizzie> 2050706 is probably the best Gaelic word.
13:14:56 <oerjan> this is a part of the gaelic alphabet i did not know about
13:16:26 <oerjan> @tell Tanea <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: we don't talk about the other kind of esoterica <-- i'm pretty sure it has happened hth
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13:23:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: So, over 8% <-- sometimes i wish i could remember what i have said
13:25:49 <oerjan> <elliott> back when it was entirely made of small animals <-- watch phineas and ferb hth
13:27:31 <oerjan> but it has an organization made almost entirely out of small animals!
13:27:42 <oerjan> admittedly only one of them gets much screen time
13:28:23 <oerjan> (also they're not all small, i remember there was a whale)
13:31:33 <elliott> hm, I appear to be unable to understand scoping and binders while this tired.
13:33:16 <oerjan> i suspect using ski won't help matters
13:34:37 <oerjan> <pikhq> Shouldn't that be HABEMVS DEBIAM? <-- it's church latin not classical latin, i think lower case is permitted hth
13:34:54 <oerjan> @tell pikhq <pikhq> Shouldn't that be HABEMVS DEBIAM? <-- it's church latin not classical latin, i think lower case is permitted hth
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13:38:48 <oerjan> last night on norwegian tv there was this guy who had never won any awards, so they gave him an award for never having won any before
13:39:02 <oerjan> (it may have been a rerun. wait, is that ironic?)
13:39:49 <oerjan> i guess we could email alanis morisette to ask
13:40:20 <elliott> i've also never won any awards
13:43:04 <oerjan> elliott: i assume you are waiting for the Succ Succ Succ how many is it again Zeroth Haskell obfuscation contest?
13:43:28 <elliott> hm that could be fun to participate in
13:45:05 <oerjan> the only competition where category theory is essential to win
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13:55:04 <oerjan> @hoogle generalCategory
13:55:05 <lambdabot> Data.Char generalCategory :: Char -> GeneralCategory
13:57:43 <oerjan> <Fiora> good thing I'm not actually human, nya! <-- clearly you are a very few human
13:58:53 <shachaf> oerjan: hth-percentage hth
14:08:49 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:11:23 <shachaf> Isn't `welcome the correct response to "thx"?
14:11:36 <shachaf> `run quote zzo38 | grep welcome
14:11:38 <HackEgo> 819) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
14:14:58 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> Amateur SF/Fantasy Artists Who Can't Get Breasts Right <-- redundant <-- see the footnote hth
14:15:39 <HackEgo> yiyus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:17:09 <HackEgo> is: the: best: type: of: `welcome: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:21:02 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
14:28:17 <elliott> I need to hire someone to think for me
14:29:18 <oerjan> <elliott> @tell ais523 yo, you get to determine the accuracy of http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=INTERCAL&curid=1040&diff=36183&oldid=35920 <-- it's consistent with the html version of the manual on muppetlabs, at least
14:29:39 <oerjan> (i had already checked)
14:29:55 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:29:58 <lambdabot> elliott said 9h 50m 35s ago: yo, you get to determine the accuracy of http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=INTERCAL&curid=1040&diff=36183&oldid=35920
14:30:32 <elliott> looks like the hiring people to think for me thing is going well
14:30:49 <oerjan> just wait until you get my bill
14:30:56 <ais523> elliott: yeah, I just checked the version of the manual that got proofread against the paper manual
14:31:11 <ais523> the correction is indeed correct
14:31:28 <elliott> oerjan: now next, about this type checker...
14:31:35 <ais523> (obviously I don't actually have the paper manual, but an electronic copy that's been confirmed as matching it is nice)
14:31:40 <ais523> (even if I don't know the person who confirmed it)
14:36:08 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> also i forgot the name of the language fa- oh right dravidian <-- i hope you are not implying that sanskrit is dravidian, it is indo-european hth
14:36:17 <oerjan> almost forgot the hth hth
14:37:26 <shachaf> oerjan: i started saying hth in #haskell until elliott rebuked me :'(
14:37:57 <oerjan> elliott: YOU ARE JUST DELAYING THE INEVITABLE HTH
14:38:13 <elliott> the inevitable hth: another band name
14:39:34 <shachaf> fizzie: Please make sure your regexp is case-insensitive. hth
14:40:43 <oerjan> argh noise i'm out of here
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14:44:35 <HackEgo> hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ hth \ ht
14:44:54 <shachaf> hthp://oerjan.no/index.hth
14:46:06 <ais523> we have… an abbreviation for yes?
14:46:45 <Jafet> I'd use the hth protocol
14:47:15 <HackEgo> ELF...Ht$..>............8.......HHu<H.8........................fy \ ...............H \ HuB \ H)H
14:47:24 <ais523> hmm, that's a very short binary
14:47:26 <shachaf> `run echo $'#!/bin/bash\nyes "$@"' > bin/z; chmod +x bin/z; wc bin/z
14:47:52 <shachaf> That's shorter and it's not even golfed.
14:48:27 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 134 Apr 14 03:00 bin/y
14:48:53 <ais523> `run echo $'#!/bin/bash\nyes "$@" #ë' > bin/z; chmod +x bin/z; wc bin/z
14:49:35 <Jafet> `run file bin/{y,z}
14:49:37 <HackEgo> bin/y: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, statically linked, corrupted section header size \ bin/z: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
14:50:12 <ais523> "corrupted section header size2
14:50:19 <ais523> I get it, bin/y is a golfed ELF file
14:50:25 <shachaf> ais523: It's great, isn't it?
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14:51:25 <shachaf> Taneb: You are demoted to Tanec.
14:51:36 <elliott> Taneb: you have messages as Tanea
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14:51:46 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 35m 21s ago: <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: we don't talk about the other kind of esoterica <-- i'm pretty sure it has happened hth
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14:52:02 <shachaf> Tanea is demoted to Taneb.
14:56:00 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy where are you i just made an amazing discovery hth
15:02:04 <tromp> > [1+2**(-i) | i<-[1..63]]
15:02:28 <tromp> > [1+2**(-i) | i<-[1..53]]
15:02:33 <lambdabot> [1.5,1.25,1.125,1.0625,1.03125,1.015625,1.0078125,1.00390625,1.001953125,1....
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15:03:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
15:03:30 <ais523> tromp: my favourite fact about IEEE floating-point numbers
15:03:45 <ais523> is that if you interpret an IEEE float as an int, add 1, and interpret the result as a float
15:03:49 <ais523> you get the next-larger float
15:04:09 <ais523> (as a side-effect, this means that integer sorts work on floats too)
15:04:15 <tromp> so the mantissa carries right into the exponent?
15:04:26 <Jafet> This sounds like a useful feature
15:05:12 <tromp> while the mantissa resets to the implicitly set 0.5
15:05:37 <tromp> > product [1+2**(-i) | i<-[1..52]]
15:07:02 <Jafet> > product [ 1 + 2**(-i) | i <- [1..500] ] :: CReal
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15:11:19 <Jafet> "1/2 QPochhammer[-1, 1/2]"
15:11:47 <Jafet> Stop giving made-up names as answers, mathematica
15:21:14 <Jafet> > (!!1) <$> transpose [show $ foldr1 (\a b -> a * b `div` 10^2^n) [ 10^2^n + 10^2^n `div` 2^i | i <- [1..3*2^n] ] | n <- [1..]]
15:21:18 <lambdabot> "23842310290313717241498992886783972387716195165084334576921015079891812930...
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16:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, i think it's actually my torrent client that's been causing all these disconnects
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17:14:10 <Taneb> ...that was a surprisingly useful Google search
17:14:19 <Taneb> I searched for 'god hate cricket mathematician'
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17:17:13 <Taneb> And it told me GH Hardy
17:19:31 <Bike> he hated cricket?
17:19:32 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:20:39 <Taneb> Bike: god hated him
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17:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm slightly worried by the fact you didn't remember he was called g h hardy though...
17:26:46 <Bike> "the ramanujan guy"
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17:32:03 <fizzie> shachaf: What I posted (a) was case-insensitive, but (b) wasn't a regexp.
17:33:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: short lapse of memory, I'm afraid
17:33:15 <Taneb> I do have a sore arm
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17:41:34 <mroman_> Is it "return the last written value" or "return the lastly written value"?
17:41:58 <mroman_> last should qualify as an adverb.
17:41:58 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile, asimov on heinlein: "He always pictured himself a libertarian, which to my way of thinking means 'I want the liberty to grow rich and you can have the liberty to starve.' It's easy to believe that no one should depend on society for help when you yourself happen not to need such help."
17:42:19 <mroman_> lastly is also an adverb, but I assume it has a different meaning.
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17:42:49 <Bike> i'd say the first one, mroman
17:43:02 <Bike> or maybe "return the value written last"
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17:44:20 <AnotherTest> or maybe... return the previously written value?
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17:47:37 <oerjan> <elliott> we're talking using pidgin to irc levels of not caring about computers here <-- wait if this is a permanent change i find this disturbing
17:48:10 <FireFly> ThatOtherPerson: the speakers?
17:48:14 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: outer space hth
17:49:29 <oerjan> d is _so_ useful in acronyms, covers all possibilities
17:49:45 <FireFly> "thanks, that really did help"?
17:49:56 <FireFly> I think that's what it expands to
17:50:07 <oerjan> that was my best guess too
17:50:27 <FireFly> I'm glad we sorted out ThatOtherPerson's problem
17:51:09 <Bike> yeah, your acronym quieted rage
17:52:49 <oerjan> AnotherTest: why do dwarfs think acronyms are evil i don't understand hth
17:53:38 <oerjan> FireFly: evolved a new what?
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17:56:21 <FireFly> I, too, wonder why David Young would asy so
18:02:01 <Bike> what would jesus do if jesus couldn't cartwheel
18:02:43 <oerjan> Bike: that's 2/3 of the words correct hth
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18:06:10 <Taneb> I'm the tanebest chap in this channel
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18:10:53 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/1b8d2c4a34586cadc33ccb29f651072c/tumblr_mlxy2qN0tb1snfhwio1_1280.png
18:12:11 -!- ThatOtherPerson has left ("No.").
18:15:19 <oerjan> Bike: an upstanding comic
18:17:00 <olsner> oerjan: I use pidgin for IRC, hth
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18:18:35 <oerjan> olsner: oh. that's irrelevant to my disturbance hth
18:21:50 <olsner> ok, I don't know what is relevant to your disturbance, but hth anyway
18:22:46 * ThatOtherPerson must find way to stop the hthocalypse before it is too late
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18:26:19 <mnoqy> shachaf: amazing discovery???
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18:42:40 <AnotherTest> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hth
18:44:29 <olsner> I like "used sarcastically after answering a dumb question to a person of inferior mental qualities."
18:44:36 <zzo38> Does adding recursive module calls to Verilog make it Turing complete?
18:46:19 <AnotherTest> I hereby introduce a new notation: hth#(number)
18:46:41 <olsner> removing ambiguity? what the hell kind of fun is that
18:46:51 <Bike> i thought referring to definitions was usually done with square brackets
18:48:48 <AnotherTest> olsner: you can still use hth if you want to be ambiguous
18:49:03 <AnotherTest> disclaimer: this is your own responsibility
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19:09:10 <FireFly> I hereby propose the acronym "aah" for "ambiguous acronym here"
19:10:21 <AnotherTest> I hereby wish to extend FireFly's proposition: "nah" for "no ambiguity here"
19:12:13 <boily> may I amend hth to "Here There be Hambiguity"?
19:12:14 <lambdabot> boily: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:13:19 <boily> @tell Taneb that's acknowledged as a priority. I'll get it done when I'll have time, which means... uhm... somewhere this summer, probably.
19:14:09 <AnotherTest> I hereby accept the third amendment proposed by boily
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19:22:02 <fizzie> "foo#n" is the WordNet notation for "sense n", at least in some contexts.
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19:29:03 <olsner> here's a short guide to making bad jokes in english: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/language/theenglishwespeak/2012/05/120522_tews_72_long_face.shtml (hth)
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19:32:31 <zzo38> I thought of some kind of "balanced logic" where if P has the real number #P where #(P -> Q) = #Q - #P but how well would such things possibly working?
19:33:42 <HackEgo> aah ambiguous acronym here
19:34:03 <boily> `learn hth here there be hambiguity
19:35:55 <boily> to hex the ham is when you have over 0x2328 hambiguities.
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19:38:28 <zzo38> If ^ is linear logic dual, then in linear logic does (A -o ?B) like (!(B^) -o (A^)) ?
19:38:32 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic; except for those momentous occasions when it is not on topic, which happen frequently | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:40:49 -!- Taneb has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, some values of "topic", "on", and "always"| Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:40:53 -!- Taneb has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, some values of "topic", "on", and "always" | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:43:09 <zzo38> Are my questions difficult?
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20:08:58 <Vorpal> I just looked at the sensors output after the kernel upgrade, and I noticed it changed. Seems I have an intrusion alarm in my computer. I know for a fact there isn't one though
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20:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow I'm starting to get genuinely angry at libertarians in general.
20:30:22 <Phantom_Hoover> This is weird, I don't normally get angry about things like this.
20:30:40 <Bike> did a libertarian take your lunch money
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20:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> brb trying to work out how to unflatteringly analogise libertarianism in terms of lunch money
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21:22:50 <zzo38> What characters of my Dungeons&Dragons game are you unlike?
21:24:36 <zzo38> No, I mean the specific game that I play in, and am recording. There is no barbarian (so far).
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21:30:45 <FireFly> That's kinda hard to answer
21:31:45 <boily> <zzo38> Are my questions difficult? ← Well...
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21:36:26 <Bike> that's pretty difficult
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21:39:41 <FireFly> I hope he'll get resurrected
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21:58:21 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
22:06:45 <boily> constant: is there a schedule from which you change nicks? like some sort of luni-solar calendar from another star system floating in the Great Quite Cold Interspace?
22:07:11 <constant> boily: its mostly whenever someone makes a comment about my nicks
22:07:18 <constant> or whenever I get annoyed from the highlightes
22:07:37 <constant> zzo38: do you run the D&D game online, or is this an in-person thing?
22:08:41 <Lumpio-> I'd say zzo38's questions are 50% out-of-the-blue, 30% random and 20% difficult.
22:10:28 <kmc> i'd go with 70% out of the blue, 70% random, and 70% difficult
22:11:14 * Fiora constructs a venn diagram in her head
22:11:24 <boily> kmc: but yours are metric percents, instead of imperial ones.
22:11:45 <lambdabot> ["constant","constant","constant","constant"]
22:12:42 <zzo38> constant: In-person, although I record them on the computer (using TeX).
22:12:43 <constant> NihilistDandy: that language is that
22:12:47 <Bike> imperial percentages are out of 124, except when you're talking about gains, when it's out of 86
22:13:10 <Bike> traditionally called a "ha-persent"
22:13:33 <constant> NihilistDandy: for some reason I didn't remember 'take'
22:13:41 * constant hasn't done haskell in a long time :(
22:13:42 <Fiora> Bike: and 19 percents makes a 'portion'
22:13:51 <Bike> sure, if you're /british/
22:14:02 <Bike> portins are more important
22:14:04 <Fiora> then you combine 37.4 percents to make a stone
22:14:18 <Bike> 18 percents to a portin makes way more sense
22:14:31 <boily> btw, why the fungot 14? that's like the only time that factor appears in the whole english units system.
22:14:33 <fungot> boily: don't ask me to call on her for which, edward admitted in one of our neglected gardens, and mumbled over his body one of the earliest folklore of all the bizarre monstrosities in gilman's dreams, nothing filled him with greater panic and nausea than this blasphemous and diminutive hybrid, whose image flitted across his vision in a form a thousandfold more hideous. science, already oppressive with its shocking revelations
22:14:49 <boily> (AAAAAAAAAAAAH! fungot has a twilight style! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!)
22:14:51 <fungot> boily: another photograph evidently a fnord taken in deep shadow was of the most repulsive primordial customs in the cryptic rhythm was that which immediately followed. the floor creaked and the speaker hove in sight and smell. when the road fnord again there are stretches of fnord that the delusive notion of the violet fnord had got abroad. these simple people were quick to imagine they had seen a car shoot briskly out of the
22:15:13 <Bike> boily: that was a reform introduced back in the 80s, nobody actually uses it except voice recognition people
22:16:38 <zzo38> constant: You can read it if you want to; the text and macro file are both available for download over the internet.
22:16:57 <zzo38> (And if you have TeX, you can even use it yourself)
22:20:41 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I suppose, out of the blue, random, difficult is not mutually exclusive so 70% of each is possible.
22:20:59 <zzo38> (I am not sure whether or not these number are correct, though.)
22:24:54 <kmc> we need to get all Big Data on the #esoteric logs
22:24:57 <kmc> hadoop that shit
22:25:52 * boily smacks kmc with a supercomputing, high-performance, aerodynamic server blade
22:25:58 <Bike> i thought that was fizzie's job
22:26:45 <kmc> boily: that's why we must move to the cloud
22:26:49 <kmc> hard to hit someone with a cloud
22:27:03 <Bike> whatif it's filled with hail
22:28:27 <boily> kmc: what about a supermassive, supersonic, superluminal cloud?
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22:32:27 <kmc> not sure if my fingernails started growing faster or I just lost track of the passage of time
22:32:33 <kmc> does this make me a PKD novel character
22:32:54 <Bike> is a facsimile of your sister hitting on you?
22:33:25 <kmc> i don't think so
22:33:37 <Bike> maybe an early one then
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22:52:33 <Bike> what are you saying
22:52:56 <kmc> just that we exist
22:52:59 <kmc> it's profound really
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22:55:23 <boily> *cough* I'm Canadian. I resent that existence remark.
22:55:45 <Koen_> would that make you a nihilist?
22:56:40 <boily> ah no. I still enjoy the occasional burger.
22:57:06 <kmc> nihilanada
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23:11:29 <Fiora> bike / kmc: http://techreport.com/review/24767/the-next-atom-intel-silvermont-architecture-revealed this is super interesting... interestingly intel says that out of order execution and hyperthreading take roughly the same resources, silicon-wise
23:12:26 <Bike> Instead, the netbook craze came and went, <-- and left me behind, i guess
23:13:56 <Fiora> wow, the pipeline diagram is cool
23:14:18 <Fiora> they diagrammed up all the pipeline stages and showed the misprediction path and everything
23:15:58 <Fiora> "Each Silvermont module is fed by a single voltage plane, but oddly enough, each core in the module can run at its own frequency, independently of the other one. When speeds differ, the shared L2 cache will run at the higher of the two frequencies."
23:16:13 <Fiora> wow. that seems crazy
23:16:25 <Fiora> like, sharing a cache between two chips clocked at different rates, wow
23:16:29 <Bike> unified clocks are so last millenium
23:16:49 <kmc> "Also upgraded is the loop stream buffer, which detects loops that will repeat, buffers the decoded instruction sequence (up to 32 macro-ops in Silvermont), and feeds the sequence into the execution engine. The chip can then shut down its fetch and decode units while the loop executes, to save power."
23:17:40 <Fiora> that's a thing they've had in a few intel chips for a bit, I think? I remember the core 2 had something like that
23:17:58 <Fiora> it was something like (fuzzy memory here...)
23:18:13 <Fiora> pentium 4 had a cache that stored decoded uops, instead of actual instructions ("trace cache"?)
23:18:14 <Bike> the power must only drop for like, a millisecond
23:18:32 <Fiora> core 2 added a loop stream buffer thing to make loops faster, because they didn't botleneck on the decoder
23:18:56 <Fiora> and then like either nehalem or sandy bridge or something added a decoded uop cache /again/ (but in addition to the regular instruction cache?)
23:19:04 <Fiora> but then they kept the loop thing because it could save power
23:19:14 <Bike> btw where the fuck are intel's names pulled from
23:19:32 <Fiora> I have no idea O_O
23:20:00 <Bike> "nehalem" sounds like hebrew (because it's like "nephilim", i am the best languager)
23:20:30 <Fiora> I think intel's done some insane things with super fine grained power management stuff
23:20:58 <Fiora> like I remember reading that someone measured a 300-500 cycle "warmup time" for AVX instructions, where they'd go at half speed for a while at first
23:21:10 <Fiora> which probably means they shut down half of the FPU on that chip until AVX gets used
23:21:36 <Fiora> unfortunately I don't think they write much about these things >_<
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23:22:09 <kmc> "Nehalem, meaning "the place where people live" in the Salish language"
23:22:18 <kmc> i thought it was hebrew too
23:22:24 <Bike> ugh, and i actually like salish
23:24:07 <kmc> elliott: should i work for this company http://ripplnmobile.com/ they are gamifying and appifying EVERYTHING
23:26:57 <kmc> also they have a sweet-ass manifesto video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5AJMK6U_Us
23:27:04 <kmc> this must be one of those joke startups right
23:28:06 <kmc> they will not stop until millions of people have created abundance and freedom
23:28:15 <Bike> The entire conversation is GAMIFIED
23:28:37 <mnoqy> help i dont understand anything anymore
23:28:41 <Bike> "The first ever mobile platform that was built to REWARD people for their own social graph." i love how many of these things are "what people have been doing for millions of years, but we show you graphs of it!"
23:28:49 <kmc> mnoqy: 'welcome to future, pls enjoy your stay'
23:29:41 <kmc> so is this like... a pyramid scheme, but i'm paid in 50% off burrito coupons
23:29:44 <kmc> i could get behind that
23:31:27 <Bike> this video is about as meaningful as the iron man 3 ones
23:32:15 <mnoqy> it's like in those movies about the future and they have a fictional advert on a future-tv for something really stupid
23:32:25 <mnoqy> + idk internet culture or something
23:32:38 <kmc> yeah i get that feeling a lot mnoqy
23:32:49 <Bike> we're a MOVEMENT. not a COMPANY.
23:33:04 <Bike> ok this is actually awesome
23:33:50 <Bike> the revolution is coming....... and it has................ social graphs
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23:34:45 <kmc> finally a movement that benefits wealthy, socially connected people in the first world
23:37:19 <pikhq> I was getting sick and tired of movements benefitting poor, lonely people in developing nations.
23:55:21 <Koen_> Bike: this video is about as meaningful as the iron man 3 ones
23:55:30 <Koen_> are you refering to the live feed of that guy's brain?
23:55:41 <Bike> no, the mandarin's
23:55:55 <Bike> MISTER PRESIDENT *flashing images of 80s protests*
23:56:39 <zzo38> Z-machine doesn't have a bitwise XOR instruction.
00:00:47 <Koen_> have you tried that fancy inform 7 language?
00:01:27 <zzo38> No, I have not tried any version of Inform. I am using my own assembler for Z-machine.
00:03:49 <zzo38> Inform has a some restrictions, such as requiring that the word separators are .," and that dictionary entries have 9 bytes each, that property tables cannot be shared (although ZIL has the same restriction), etc
00:05:16 <zzo38> There are many other things that can be done with the Z-machine that I don't know if ZIL or Inform supports.
00:07:16 <Sgeo> Downloaded Kubuntu 13.04
00:14:16 <zzo38> This includes: overlapping property tables (where some objects share some but not all properties; a dummy property entry will be needed to separate them), repointing property tables at runtime, changing the alphabet table at runtime, modifying default property values at runtime, making the global variable table overlap the default property table (possibly even the header of object 1), ...
00:17:49 <Sgeo> WebGL, WebGL, who doesn't love WebGL?
00:17:54 <Sgeo> WebGL WebGL I love you
00:18:06 * Sgeo hasn't actually used WebGL-based stuff much
00:19:05 <kmc> i don't love it because it gives untrusted JavaScript code a huge amount of access to one of the biggest and scariest subsystems of the Linux kernel
00:19:55 <kmc> and a successful attack through graphics card / driver would likely bypass most Chrome sandboxing
00:20:11 <Bike> I bet it would make for a cool blog post though.
00:20:35 <Sgeo> If there was a prompt that needed to pop up for WebGL to activate, then it would be rougly equiv. to downloading and running an application?
00:20:40 * Bike 's system doesn't even support webgl. take that,attackers
00:20:50 <Fiora> kmc: it's terrifying just how huge and complex graphics drivers are
00:21:02 <Sgeo> Presumbaly the user would need to trust... oh. Users are gullible. But then users would be gullible to download .exes anyway
00:21:08 <Bike> Sgeo: it's not like that stops worms on windows
00:21:12 <Fiora> and I mean, like, they solve really huge problems, taking vast amounts of directx/opengl/etc code and transforming it into optimized graphics... commands and everything
00:21:19 <Fiora> but like. they're millions and millions of lines of code O_O
00:21:55 <Fiora> it sounds like they'd be really cool to work on though
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00:22:00 <kmc> yeah the prompt is a total cop-out
00:22:15 <kmc> i mean if I have to trust any WebGL app as if it were unsandboxed native code, then it's not really "Web"GL is it
00:22:19 <zzo38> Another thing that can be done, is that the fix pitch bit in the header could be used to allow an undone operation to take one bit of information from the undo operation
00:22:32 <kmc> don't get me wrong, I would still want the prompt if I enable WebGL at all
00:22:35 <kmc> but it doesn't really solve the problem
00:22:42 <zzo38> I don't know if any Z-machine game does this.
00:22:48 <kmc> not hard to wrap your exploit in some pretty WebGL demo and get it posted to Hacker News
00:23:47 <Sgeo> I guess OpenGL commands that _should_ be safe aren't necessarily?
00:23:51 <Fiora> kmc: and you can sneak a bitcoin stealer into the exploit
00:23:59 <Fiora> (given that it's hacker news)
00:24:04 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah, because of bugs in the graphics card or its drivers
00:24:06 <kmc> which are huuuuuuuuuuge
00:24:22 <kmc> I read that nvidia's closed source graphics driver is about as big as Linux with all modules
00:24:25 <kmc> which is to say ~10 MLOC
00:24:33 <Fiora> wow, that's even bigger than I imagined
00:24:34 <kmc> that's leaving aside all of the software and hardware on the card itself
00:24:48 <kmc> the card of course has privileges to write to anywhere in RAM that you like
00:24:58 <kmc> (unless you have some IOMMU stuff set up just right)
00:25:43 <kmc> as for open source drivers, well they might be a bit smaller, but they're scary as hell and often based on an incomplete reverse-engineered understanding of the hardware
00:26:19 <zzo38> Maybe the driver is too complicated because the hardware is too complicated.
00:26:30 <Fiora> I think it's probably because the *problem* is really complicated...
00:26:58 <kmc> yeah, although I'm sure a lot of it is backwards compatibility junk as well
00:27:09 <Bike> making doom 2 run is NP-complete
00:27:11 <Fiora> probably >_< especially given they have to support really really old cards
00:27:15 <Fiora> though I think they've dropped a lot of those
00:27:26 <kmc> compat code is another really scary class of kernel code
00:27:50 <kmc> it does weird data-format munging, often violates assumptions made elsewhere (e.g. by calling syscalls from kernel mode), and is often poorly / not tested
00:27:57 <Sgeo> Doesn't IE still support content-sniffing on text/plain for compatibility reasons?
00:28:15 <Sgeo> Compatibility issues in general suck, I think
00:28:30 <kmc> there was a local root hole in the Linux kernel code for uploading firmware to a V4L version 2 card on a 64-bit system using the 32-bit V4L version 1 APIs
00:28:36 <Sgeo> (As in, sniffing for HTML on what server claims to be text/plain)
00:28:44 <kmc> which is something that nobody ever tried to do, and the code to do it was very broken
00:28:50 <kmc> but it was in the kernel for years
00:29:05 <Sgeo> Is OpenBSD any better?
00:29:10 <kmc> it has less stuff
00:29:30 <kmc> Linux with minimal config is a lot better than standard kitchen sink Linux kernels
00:29:39 <kmc> even better if you have grsecurity / PaX patches
00:30:01 <Sgeo> Going to go reboot now
00:30:08 <kmc> into OpenBSD?
00:30:14 <Sgeo> Sorry to disappoint
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00:32:29 <Bike> have there been any high-profile like, uses of exploits? a worm or something?
00:33:43 <kmc> of linux kernel exploits?
00:34:28 <kmc> well there are very few remote kernel exploits, so you would need to pair it with a remote user exploit of some kind to make a worm
00:34:37 <kmc> and depending on your worm's goals, getting root is maybe not that useful
00:34:43 <Bike> well what i'm asking is like
00:34:47 <Bike> what do people do with linux exploits
00:35:28 <kmc> get root on VPSes that they've compromised through a WordPress vulnerability
00:35:54 <kmc> or even shared hosting servers with a bunch of processes running as different users
00:36:33 <kmc> then you can have some fun with root access
00:37:18 <Fiora> so like, you could get root on a server at amazon ec2, and then do whoknowswhat on their network?
00:37:25 <kmc> you can also break out of Linux Containers / OpenVZ / Virtuozzo containers with a kernel exploit I believe
00:37:25 <Fiora> (though I'd guess amazon would have really good security)
00:37:45 <kmc> EC2 uses the Xen hypervisor so you would also need a Xen breakout exploit even if you have root on a guest
00:38:09 <Fiora> so with VPSs that don't do hypervisors, you'd just need a kernel exploit
00:38:37 <kmc> Bike: people run honeypot servers and make recordings of people trying to attack them
00:38:40 <kmc> some of them are pretty funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagxe-Gvpw
00:39:18 <kmc> http://downgoat.net/2013/04/25/the-story-about-some-very-bad-hackers/
00:39:45 <Fiora> "sudo: command not found" xD
00:41:13 <pikhq> kmc: Oh my goodness this video.
00:41:16 <Bike> yeah i've seenthose
00:41:30 <kmc> oh I guess that's a "hiding shit" directory
00:41:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:41:35 <kmc> but doesn't exist :)
00:41:37 <Fiora> "maybe perl will work this time!"
00:41:38 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgebuntu.
00:41:55 <pikhq> I love how utterly ignorant this "hacker" apparently is.
00:42:05 <Sgebuntu> Was so frustrated until realizing I forgot to connect to wifi
00:42:10 <pikhq> It's like they got told a couple recipes for hacking Unix boxen and then fucked it up.
00:42:18 <Bike> script kiddies, as they say
00:42:42 <Bike> this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagxe-Gvpw
00:42:43 <pikhq> "Maybe /var/spool/sambda will exist *now*!"
00:43:14 <Fiora> that was kind of amazingly bad
00:43:27 <Fiora> I wonder why they try to use /var/spool/samba
00:44:09 <kmc> maybe it was the cwd of the samba process they exploited
00:44:40 <Bike> it takes perseverence to go past no sudo
00:45:17 <Bike> lol, spool appearing
00:45:33 <pikhq> Bike: They were root!
00:46:18 <Bike> shit i wish i could download SP3 that fast
00:48:37 * Bike looks at "7202 B/s", sobs
00:50:12 <Fiora> kmc: ohhh. so they exploited a process to get on the server, only to find themselves in a honeypot?
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01:27:03 <kmc> Fiora: i don't know, but it seems likely
01:30:06 <kmc> gotta work up the nerve to hit 'send' on these job emails
01:30:10 <kmc> it's scary :/
01:32:35 <Fiora> sending important emails is scary, I really often end up using the undo button like 5 times in a row before I've nerve-wracked myself into believing it's okay
01:32:39 <Fiora> (undo send is wonderful though)
01:35:20 <kmc> does it just insert a delay before actually sending the email?
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01:35:51 <Fiora> it has saved me from soooo much embarrassment probably
01:35:55 <kmc> i appreciated amazon 1-click more once I realized it works like that
01:36:03 <kmc> you have 30 minutes to cancel or modify the order
01:36:08 <Fiora> ooooh. I had no idea
01:36:20 <pikhq> IIRC it's a 30 second delay.
01:36:23 <Fiora> that's really nice. I think I'm less afraid to use one-click one
01:36:36 <pikhq> Assumption being that 30 seconds is close enough to instant.
01:36:37 <kmc> pikhq: really?
01:36:43 <pikhq> kmc: That's for Gmail.
01:36:58 <pikhq> I didn't know about Amazon's thing.
01:37:00 <kmc> yeah one click + amazon prime is a pretty potent combination
01:37:01 <coppro> undo send is the best feature
01:37:12 <coppro> NihilistDandy: it's a lab feature
01:37:15 <Fiora> it's a google labs feature thing
01:37:17 <Fiora> you can set the delay, I think?
01:37:30 <kmc> i have previously used the trick of not filling in the recipient address until you're really ready to send
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01:50:06 <Sgebuntu> Good idea or bad idea: Just installing 13.04 over my existing Kubuntu install
02:01:44 <coppro> if you have separate /home, good idea
02:03:29 <Sgebuntu> Would that be reasonably easy to do though?
02:06:05 <kmc> do you have backups
02:06:07 <Sgebuntu> It seems to be encrypted... does that imply separate mount?
02:07:55 <kmc> the encrypted file may still be stored on the same partition as everything else
02:07:59 <kmc> just make backups
02:08:04 <kmc> you need backups anyway
02:08:28 <kmc> some storage device?
02:08:47 <kmc> how much irreplaceable personal data do you have?
02:09:05 <kmc> i don't have very much, since most of the stuff I make is text and I don't have many photos or videos
02:10:20 <Sgebuntu> Quite a bit, but not in /home particularly
02:10:42 <Sgebuntu> Losing irreplaceable data has been a bit of a fact of life for me :(
02:10:58 <Sgebuntu> I think there's some on a broken HD I have lying around somewhere
02:11:58 <kmc> buhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
02:12:18 * kmc is still scared of sending these emails
02:20:27 <pikhq> Sounds like anxiety.
02:21:12 <Jafet> It's ok, just wait until you run out of money
02:21:18 <Jafet> Stuff works out naturally
02:29:48 <kmc> fortunately that will take quite a while
02:29:57 <kmc> but I don't want to sit around doing nothing for an extended period of time
02:30:01 <kmc> i've done enough of that
02:31:42 <Sgebuntu> I just bought cereal online, not because I needed more cereal, but because I've heard good things about this cereal from a place that reviewed another cereal that people love
02:32:03 <Sgebuntu> (As in not sane, not as in angry)
02:32:17 <mnoqy> was it http://www.cerealmarshmallows.com/
02:40:45 <Bike> fuckin capitalist
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03:13:14 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this? http://ifwiki.org/index.php/Cruelty_scale
03:13:39 <Sgebuntu> The alarm clock website I use seems to think it's 3:13 AM.
03:13:51 <Bike> seems alright to me
03:13:56 <kmc> your only solution is to move 4 time zones over
03:14:23 <Bike> to newfoundland!
03:14:53 <Bike> actually wait is sgeo in asia or...i'mconfused now
03:16:17 <kmc> i thought Long Island, NY
03:16:23 <kmc> long island is long
03:16:27 <kmc> but not 4 time zones long :'(
03:19:04 <kmc> unsigned long cat
03:39:14 <Sgebuntu> Dear System clock: Fuck you so very much
03:50:01 <kmc> yay i got over my fear and sent 3 job applications
03:50:08 <kmc> now it's time for much drinking
03:52:30 <olsner> wow, are you getting 3 jobs!
03:52:59 <Bike> hypercapitalist
03:53:52 <kmc> i know right
03:53:56 <kmc> thanks Fiora :)
03:57:37 <kmc> Jafet: maybe "bougiegrammer"
03:57:50 <kmc> but that makes me think of... bougie grammer
03:58:21 <kmc> "Téodor, when you talk that way, I feel like I'm sitting on the nozzle of a big metal tank that says YALE."
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04:14:57 <NihilistDandy> The comprehensive Achewood text archive is unbelievably helpful
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04:21:38 * Sgebuntu wonders if the single threat ClamAV has found so far might just be something downloaded out of curiousity but otherwise inactive
04:21:59 <Sgebuntu> Not sure whether to hope so or not. If not, then I can blame all my Windows problems on it...
04:37:32 <Sgebuntu> No. Maybe when the scan is done.
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05:29:06 <kmc> NihilistDandy: yes
05:29:12 <kmc> it is helpful
05:29:52 <NihilistDandy> I should write a bot that only knows lines from Achewood
05:29:57 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_97q16TFxk they're making an Achewood TV show
05:32:28 <kmc> i think this test footage is kind of off, but I'm hopeful it will become a good show
05:33:02 <kmc> i think the strip has pretty much run its course and so I'm excited to see it go in new directions
05:40:14 <madb4rd> nice paper: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/456444_4106885718450_1465379536_o.jpg
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05:41:34 <kmc> note that Beef is voiced by Chris Onstad in that video
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06:20:11 <zzo38> It could probably be improved by removing "fucking" and placing each sentence on its own line.
06:20:41 <zzo38> And perhaps even numbering them or bullet point
06:23:40 <Bike> that was a strange zzoism when i forgot the context
06:25:16 <zzo38> Except noncommutative logic, I suppose.
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06:30:13 <hagb4rd|tempsane> also: we need the americans to read the whole thing. the fucking works kind of like a fnord: disarming some auth-sub-routine-filters which allows direct inception on the lower levels of human perception
06:32:50 <hagb4rd|tempsane> i remember beeing there for the first time. almost intuitive, i pressed ALT+A, and there it was.. a tiny little fnord in that corner
06:33:44 <kmc> "The mammals include the largest animals on the planet... as well as some of the most intelligent"
06:34:55 <Bike> corvids and cephalopods, man
06:34:59 <Bike> you know the score
06:35:14 <hagb4rd|tempsane> aw beeing where? i meant the RAW website..somehow i dropped that sorry
06:35:19 <kmc> Are You Smarter Than A Cephalopod, coming this fall on NBC
06:35:54 <Bike> oh, and parrots. i forget whatever the sciency name for parrots is
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06:36:09 <kmc> pretty sure it's parrotiae
06:36:14 <kmc> (n.b.: not really)
06:36:28 <kmc> psittaciformes now you know
06:36:32 <pikhq_> zzo38: Just removing "fucking" and placing each sentence on its own line would work.
06:36:32 <Fiora> kmc: they can have like, a locking mechanism and see whether the people or the cuttlefish can figure it out first
06:36:44 <Bike> it's amazing how many ways i'd pronounce that wrong
06:36:44 <Fiora> tonight at 9, on FOX
06:36:46 <pikhq_> Particularly given that that's in Helvetica.
06:37:12 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, you don't need to do the others, but it will make it a bit nicer, at least, *maybe*.
06:37:21 <pikhq_> I don't think they would.
06:37:42 <Bike> parrots know like, sarcasm and stuff
06:37:45 <Bike> ready for irc, imo
06:37:46 <pikhq_> Doesn't fit too well with the whole Swiss style aesthetic, which is really what you should target when using Helvetica.
06:40:26 <kmc> "You're naïve! Perfect Swiss men probably account for under one ten-millionth of a percent of worldwide joint sales!"
06:41:38 <mnoqy> perfect swiss men??? joint sales??????????
06:41:46 <Bike> is there a german version of smoke two joints
06:41:50 <Bike> if not there really should be
06:42:11 <mnoqy> rauchen zwei Gelenken
06:42:23 <pikhq_> Geschmoken zwei Jointzen
06:42:30 <Bike> where does europe even get its weed
06:42:30 <kmc> i think pikhq_ has it
06:42:42 <Bike> i bet it's finland
06:42:43 <kmc> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ever hear of a place called HOLLAND
06:42:58 <Bike> well do they grow it there
06:43:15 <Bike> «According to The Toyes, "one fine fall day on a small island" of Oahu in Hawaii, two of the band members, Jim and Sandy, were sitting under a large banyan tree on Kuhio Beach, "tokin' on some sweet bud & jammin' on a rootsy reggae funky town"» is this real
06:43:17 <kmc> that said I hear much of the weed in the UK is horrible "soapbar hash"
06:43:26 <mnoqy> man i know like nothing about this stuff how can everyone be so knowledgable
06:43:29 <kmc> smoke two articulations
06:43:30 <pikhq_> The tulips are just a cover.
06:43:32 <Bike> does that mean it's cut with soap, or something more creative
06:43:52 <pikhq_> mnoqy: The secret is I pretend.
06:44:11 <Bike> oh shit,oh shit, holland is only sort of the same thing as the netherlands??
06:44:14 <Bike> fuck that country
06:44:25 <kmc> i assume it's a province or whatever
06:44:39 <pikhq_> It's like England vs. the UK or some such.
06:44:43 <Bike> "Holland is a region and former province in the western part of the Netherlands. The term Holland is also frequently used as a pars pro toto to refer to the whole of the Netherlands. This usage is generally accepted, but disliked by part of the Dutch population, especially in the other parts of the Netherlands"
06:44:48 <Bike> fuck the world
06:44:54 <mnoqy> hm is soapbar hash where you put the hash in a bar of soap like those little plastic dinosaurs and stuff
06:45:05 <pikhq_> I dunno, the world doesn't look fuckable.
06:45:12 <kmc> isn't the set of dutch people not living in holland a set of measure zero
06:45:17 <mnoqy> you know, the little plastic dinosaurs you put in the soap so when you use the soap you rub yourself with the dinosaur
06:45:22 <fizzie> Just call it "the nether regions".
06:45:22 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holland_position.svg !!!!!
06:45:26 <kmc> give me a hole big enough and i will fuck the whole world
06:45:30 <Bike> also: sex joke
06:45:31 <kmc> -- newton or someone
06:45:35 <mnoqy> hagb4rd|tempsane: thanks
06:45:42 <kmc> sex joke: "holland position"
06:45:51 <Bike> the joke is holland,
06:45:59 <Bike> hagb4rd|tempsane: damn your multilingualism!!
06:46:21 <mnoqy> time to figure out what i ~actually~ said
06:46:23 <pikhq_> Alas, I don't speak German, I speak fake German.
06:46:29 <Bike> i thought that wasmore of a creole
06:46:31 <pikhq_> I also speak Swedish Chef.
06:46:34 <Bike> or a uh... a word better than creole
06:48:14 <kmc> if holland is so great then why is the Noord/Zuid Line still under construction???? checkmate
06:48:23 <kmc> seriously though Amsterdam is great and I would love to live there
06:48:54 <Bike> wtf, the netherlands had to declare independence from spain
06:48:58 <Bike> how is european history even possible
06:50:05 <hagb4rd|tempsane> mnoqy: http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&search=gelenk#/search=joint&searchLoc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on
06:50:33 <kmc> that's why the Dutch version of Santa Claus is from Spain and if you're bad then Santa's friend Black Pete will haul you off to Spain
06:50:35 <hagb4rd|tempsane> joint is like 8 words in german with completely different meaning
06:50:43 <kmc> true story
06:51:02 <mnoqy> yet it somehow manages not actually to mean joint
06:51:03 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sintenpiet.jpg
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06:52:18 <mnoqy> Controversial practices include holiday revellers blackening their faces and wearing afro wigs, gold jewelry and bright red lipstick,[8] and walking the streets throwing candy to passers-by.
06:53:09 <mnoqy> As an experiment in 2006, the NPS (en: Dutch Programme Foundation) replaced the black Pieten with rainbow-colored Pieten but reverted the characters back to the traditional all-black makeup a year later.
06:53:20 <mnoqy> what a good tradition
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06:53:36 <kmc> also NL used to be a republic but Napoleon installed his brother as king or something
06:53:54 <Bike> well, i mean, napoleon
06:54:05 <Bike> i figger he just fucked up all of europe forever, that's not hard to undersatnd
06:54:54 <kmc> western europe at least
06:55:15 <Bike> eastern europe was already fucked up
06:55:27 <Bike> is poland part of eastern europe i forget
06:56:16 <kmc> russia invades, now you have two problems
06:56:49 <Bike> i mean like, during the deluge (it's actually called the deluge) poland lost almost half its population
06:56:59 <Bike> like what's even up with that, europe.
06:57:07 <mnoqy> history sounds crazy man
06:57:50 <Bike> hagb4rd|tempsane: the swedeish invasion of poland in the 1600s
06:58:28 <Bike> Potop_szwedzki
06:58:32 <Bike> i assume that means 'swedish flood'
07:00:04 <kmc> krakow is a nice city
07:00:15 <Bike> poland didn't exist in like the 19th century right
07:01:20 <Bike> that's a lot of centuries to stop existingand then unstop later, imo
07:03:26 <hagb4rd|tempsane> well true.. but its people never stopped fighting for its sovereignity
07:03:29 <kmc> Poland: it comes and goes
07:04:25 <hagb4rd|tempsane> actually the first versa in the antem is like 'poland is not lost, as long as we live'
07:04:55 <kmc> "Polonium may be the first element named to highlight a political controversy"
07:05:18 <hagb4rd|tempsane> i have german and polish roots.. and for that reason i am a citizen of earth
07:05:20 <Bike> stunning political commentary from the physics world *nukes idaho*
07:07:02 <Bike> they got curie's daughter, who also got a nobel
07:07:05 <Bike> so i'd say that worked out
07:09:10 <Bike> Curie named polonium in the late 1800s, when Poland iddn't exist.
07:10:02 <Bike> kmc was quoting wikipedia.
07:10:44 <Bike> It was Curie's hope that naming the element after her native land would publicize its lack of independence. ( Kabzinska, K. (1998). "Chemical and Polish aspects of polonium and radium discovery". Przemysl Chemiczny 77 (3): 104–107.)
07:11:09 <Bike> (chemical and polish)
07:12:04 <mnoqy> a great gift for both chemists and.............polishsts?????
07:12:20 <hagb4rd|tempsane> well the french somehow understood the beauty in the polish culture
07:14:52 <hagb4rd|tempsane> the pope missed ranking by a few credits (sorry pope..maybe next time :P)
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07:16:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammal_Diversity_2011.png
07:17:13 <Bike> kmc: wikipedia's little tilings are great
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07:17:25 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Leonid_Brezhnev_and_Richard_Nixon_talks_in_1973_cropped.JPG mammal diversity
07:18:03 <Bike> this one has a pangolin in it
07:18:07 <Bike> so it's basically the best?
07:18:39 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screaming_hairy_armadillo
07:20:30 <Bike> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notoryctes_typhlops.jpg what a great animal
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07:33:25 <zzo38> Do matrices form a "ringed category"?
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07:58:27 <kmc> what's a ringed category
08:04:54 <zzo38> It is just a word I made up, but what I mean is that there is an Abelian group over each hom-set, and that the composition of morphisms distributes over this group.
08:08:43 <zzo38> I don't know if it has a different name.
08:13:12 <kmc> that seems like an ok name
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08:21:55 <kmc> i want a god who stays dead, not plays dead
08:22:02 <kmc> i, even i, can play dead
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08:27:21 <kmc> in this business you're either a one or a zero, alive or dead
08:28:16 <Koen_> what about zombies
08:28:29 <Jafet> Book of Revelations: the original zombie apocalypse
08:31:47 <Jafet> legolas by laura http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMbjK1m6alg
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09:08:48 <fizzie> Is a pineapple a kind of an apple?
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09:47:49 <Jafet> It's a kind of pin
10:19:43 <nortti> ``You see, the ancient legend says that before the universe was compiled, the creator deity pondered for a spell, and then on the first day said Let there be parentheses! and he saw they were good. Then on the second day he said Let code be data and data be code and there was much rejoicing. Then on the third day he hacked up a meta-programming macro, and fucked off for the rest of the week as the universe generated itself.''
10:19:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `You: not found
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11:28:10 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy I forgot what the amazing discovery was. But it was good.
11:31:49 <ion> My 4-year-old nephew managed to crash mosh-client when i let him type into cat.
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12:59:51 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/WYhA OH NO
13:10:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ffHJ OH YES
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13:57:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan i didn't ACTUALLY use pidgin
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15:43:06 <Taneb> Anyone else watching Vicious?
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15:53:37 <Gregor> Check out my SWEEEEET vanity hostname.
15:57:02 <Gregor> Since I know I'm not getting libc.so now (sigh...) I'm thinking of switching stock-and-barrel to libdl.so.
15:59:36 <ThatOtherPerson> And they don't even have the decency to make it resolve to somewhere
16:02:11 <Gregor> <ThatOtherPerson> And they don't even have the decency to make it resolve to somewhere // This is the most painful part :(
16:02:20 <Gregor> I'd even be happier with a generic "this domain squatted" site.
16:02:27 <Gregor> I wouldn't be HAPPY, but I'd be happier.
16:02:33 <Gregor> The owner never responded to my emails either *sigh*
16:08:32 -!- boily has joined.
16:10:17 <HackEgo> aah ambiguous acronym here
16:10:29 <lambdabot> Title: AAH.co.uk AAH Pharmaceuticals | AAH
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16:36:43 <elliott> @tell ais523 it seems lots of spam accounts are still editing, but never getting far enough to trigger the block
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17:35:44 <boily> but then you'd find a bug in the bug killing system.
17:35:45 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: Is this still about the economy simulation?
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17:40:00 <oerjan> funny, webchat doesn't do tab completion of nicks after /msg
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17:45:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, for some values of "topic", "on", and "always" | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:48:48 <oerjan> Dies war ein Test der Grammatikkorrektursystem.
17:50:30 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, for some values of "#esoteric", "is", and "on" | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:51:00 <oerjan> (yes, the german has incorrect grammar. is there a problem?)
17:56:36 <oerjan> <boily> (AAAAAAAAAAAAH! fungot has a twilight style! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!) <-- i am concluding you find this more disturbing than the lovecraft one.
17:56:36 <fungot> oerjan: the peasants had fled and which now sheltered the laborers from the north curse and whine, and the
17:57:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:58:10 <boily> oerjan: no trouble with the lovecraft style.
17:58:36 <oerjan> (twist: fungot actually was on the lovecraft style at the time of your panic.)
17:58:38 <fungot> oerjan: such stupendous ruin only chaos dwelt, and where even the most callous of the other fnord. but whip a cat and watch it glare and move backward hissing in outraged dignity and self-respect! one more blow, and it is this plan which we could neither see nor definitely place. as we did so we saw that real source, we entered an archway from which much debris had been fnord by nameless workmen in that horrible gulf rent out o
18:00:16 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: the readme doesn't really have a lot of things
18:00:36 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: that is because the emulator is nowhere near finished
18:01:03 <AnotherTest> oh, I was thinking "he's trying to simulate the galaxy" for a second
18:02:21 <AnotherTest> It's a shame I'm so much of a high-level noob
18:02:53 <boily> oerjan: but, but... it really sounded like twilight!
18:02:54 <ThatOtherPerson> I am for the most part as well, but the DCPU is really pretty simple
18:04:15 <AnotherTest> but currently I'm writing some UML generating tool because cpp2dia sucks
18:04:53 <fizzie> There's a Twilight style in fungot?
18:04:54 <fungot> fizzie: a sudden fnord of the complex key became necessary. lunch and dinner were brought him, but he said the bad thing about it.
18:05:20 <fizzie> Oh no, he said the bad thing about it.
18:05:40 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: What eldritch things should be the fate of all bugs?
18:05:40 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: however, as great a calamity as was feared. carter's personality is gaining in volume... the room rings with demoniacal fnord fnord, and from some of the
18:05:56 <fizzie> I don't know how one measures the volume of a personality.
18:06:21 <AnotherTest> fungot is weird. his personality is weird too.. we should measure its volume...
18:06:22 <fungot> AnotherTest: walter brown is missing fnord been seen loafing around any of his other apparel had vanished with his recovery, and my later panic flight, burned up a perilous amount of air. tomorrow i will reduce physical exertion to the barest minimum until i meet the reptiles and have to take fnord when it thunders. the thing had had only one visit from edward, when he showed that ' ghoul feeding' was a tremendous achievement.
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18:06:52 <AnotherTest> "i will reduce physical exertion to the barest minimum until i meet the reptiles" this is unsettling
18:06:57 <fizzie> "tomorrow i will reduce physical exertion to the barest minimum until i meet the reptiles and have to take fnord when it thunders." I should say that to someone.
18:07:33 <AnotherTest> fungot: can you please clarify what you're going to do tomorrow?
18:07:34 <fungot> AnotherTest: fnord, in the absence of form by a species of pictorial memory whereby his face appeared to me was not the secret that was never spoken aloud, only whispered. the count died without utterance, and was heard to cry out. no watcher can ever forget that sight, and ammi turned away from us, as to only a few moments he regretted his thoughtless haste, and his visits were becoming fewer and fewer. when school closed the
18:08:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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18:08:28 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: apparently that's just a placeholder for when it doesn't know anything better to say
18:08:28 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
18:08:45 <Jafet> The bite-covered fungot rises from the dead
18:08:45 <fungot> Jafet: anhur: an egyptian god of craftsmen. he hated the other gods judged mjollnir the winner of the cakes and looked at the entrance.
18:08:49 <fizzie> It's one of the styles trained both (a) with replacing all words that occur only once with the unknown-word token, and (b) without pruning n-grams that contain OOV words.
18:09:11 <fizzie> (And therefore it needs to say *something* when the babble-generation produces the unknown-word token.)
18:09:41 <fizzie> "Mjolnir, the winner of the cakes".
18:10:10 <AnotherTest> It doesn't have the classic Shakespeare style :(
18:10:36 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
18:10:51 <fungot> AnotherTest: scena tertius. scena prima. were i a man, there to dispose this treasure in mine armes: then, if you had, who takes it by sovereignty of nature.
18:10:52 <fizzie> I... may have abbreviated that one a bit too much.
18:11:26 <AnotherTest> fungot: Willt thou draw near the nature of the gods?
18:11:27 <fungot> AnotherTest: queen. then i am not lisio, nor a man cannot make him giue ground: and more it would content me to have her name fnord all her deserving is a reserved honesty, and fnord of steele, you that have seene them, what they shall doe with this wicked caitiffe? esc. why thou globe of sinfull continents, what a slug is hastings, that he has taken their greatest commander; and that with speed; i cannot sigh thus fnord but wh
18:11:31 <fizzie> fungot: Did Shakespeare write oft of fnords?
18:11:32 <fungot> fizzie: pompey. thou hast seene these signes, they are both hang'd; and so would do, were he heere, or at least strangely neglected? when did he regard the stamp of merit! o, and i sheepe?
18:12:46 <fungot> AnotherTest: fa. he is very sicke, since i have found great love amongst them. o, fellow, fellow, thou troublest me.
18:12:47 <oerjan> to fnord, perchance to dream
18:13:18 <fungot> AnotherTest: iu. what is't to leaue betimes? enter king, queene, aumerle, bushy, green. servant. who shall say me nay: pauca verba. away, with the romanes: at another caesar, lepidus, anthony, enobarbus, when antony found julius caesar dead, he will not heare
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18:24:33 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> Do matrices form a "ringed category"? <-- it's called an abelian category, and yes.
18:29:05 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 Or the weaker notion of preadditive category.
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18:54:05 <kmc> prize for macro abuse goes to http://libcello.org/
18:54:43 <Taneb> when did I say that
18:55:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: you didn't say that, I was just checking to see if you were asquare
18:56:03 <Bike> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by Haskell, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by Python and Obj-C.
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18:57:26 <kmc> dynamically typed C, with type classes
18:57:39 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: the DCPU is supposed to have 100,000 cycles a second, right?
18:57:39 <elliott> this doesn't seem to be real typeclasses
18:57:54 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: no idea, ask in #0x10c-dev
18:57:57 <ThatOtherPerson> or am I confused after several months of not doing DCPU stuff
18:59:25 <elliott> I say we can build more or less anything into our runtime system but Garbage collection is just one step too far. The dynamic and complex systems that run garbage collectors just introduce too many hidden operations into a language. Like adding the type at the beginning of a struct, C does its best to disallow any hidden costs. And GC is all or nothing. Even the tiniest memory leak is unacceptable.
18:59:39 <Jafet> `run echo 'The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.' | rainwords > wisdom/cello
18:59:46 <zzo38> O, it is called abelian category. Wikipedia describes abelian category in a more complicated way than what I meant by a ringed category.
18:59:47 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:59:51 <lambdabot> oerjan said 35m 17s ago: <zzo38> Do matrices form a "ringed category"? <-- it's called an abelian category, and yes.
18:59:51 <lambdabot> oerjan said 30m 45s ago: Or the weaker notion of preadditive category.
19:01:03 <zzo38> I do mean "all hom-sets are abelian groups" but I also mean the distributive law.
19:02:23 <Bike> So is anyone good at grothendieck
19:02:26 <Bike> fiber bundles 'n' shit
19:08:16 <elliott> are you studying fiber bundles in horses
19:08:38 <kmc> Horse_efibers
19:08:57 <pikhq_> Good god, and I thought I should feel awful for my C.
19:09:56 <Bike> elliott: i'm actually wondering if i can apply optimal control to insects so... almost
19:14:04 <kmc> anyone start working on an Underhanded C Contest entry yet?
19:15:08 <olsner> I've been planning to visit that link in the topic to read what the assignment was
19:16:51 <olsner> fungot: how about you?
19:16:52 <fungot> olsner: enter two gentlemen at seuerall doores. caesar gets money where he looses hearts: lepidus flatters both, of both the sicils, and ierusalem, and hither are they comming to offer you our seruice
19:18:14 <kmc> is that shaxpear
19:18:31 <Bike> @google "ceasar gets money where he looses hearts"
19:18:54 <olsner> why are the v's written with u's?
19:19:20 <ThatOtherPerson> kmc: I started a month or two ago, but that's on the back burner right now
19:21:57 <AnotherTest> I tend to have a similar problem (abandoning stuff very quickly)
19:22:06 <AnotherTest> oh you had to give a presentation about economics?
19:22:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss* wp youtube
19:22:29 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
19:22:55 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: I just tend to be working on several different things at once
19:24:36 <AnotherTest> (well either bad or already done and better)
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20:47:47 <Vorpal> I can't think of any games except Minecraft (and possibly something like Minesweeper) that lets you just resize the window like a normal desktop application. Usually you can only set various fixed resolutions... Why?
20:48:57 <Fiora> I remember seeing a couple that could, but I think it's super hard because they have to reinitialize the directx/opengl context and complicated things
20:49:05 <Fiora> which is why like, changing resolution can take seconds at a time
20:49:12 <zzo38> Text adventure games might be able to, depending on the interpreter.
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20:49:23 <Fiora> (and maybe like, reload/recalculate the whole interface because they have to rescale it?)
20:51:18 <Jafet> 2D games are painstakingly designed by hand in visual studio pro enterprise cloud toolkit forms down to the last pixel
20:51:45 <Fiora> it's the same reason that alt-tab is such a hard thing to get right, I think
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20:51:53 <Bike> do you need to play minecraft in 670×430
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20:52:17 <Fiora> Final Fantasy XI had an odd interesting thing where you could actually set the rendering resolution independent of the display resolution though
20:53:36 <Bike> Fiora: that seems really werid
20:53:39 <elliott> is that meant to be a square
20:53:50 <ion> That’s obviously not a square.
20:53:58 <Fiora> Bike: a friend of mine who was big into it used to use it to implement supersampling
20:54:04 <Fiora> she just set the rendering resolution to ~4K and played at 1080p
20:54:43 <Jafet> Supersampling: because you spent more money on the video card than on the screen
20:56:27 <Vorpal> <Bike> do you need to play minecraft in 670×430 <-- I tend to play it in windowed mode, with whatever size fits a small youtube video below, thus watching video as I play
20:56:30 <Fiora> or the game's just like. kinda old <.<
20:56:46 <Jafet> How is it old if you can't even see the pixels
20:57:08 <Vorpal> <elliott> is that meant to be a square <-- looks like roman numeral to me
20:58:10 <Vorpal> <Fiora> she just set the rendering resolution to ~4K and played at 1080p <-- wait, Final Fantasy XI, which platform is that for?
20:58:23 <Vorpal> I thought Final Fantasy was always console exclusive titles?
20:58:28 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:58:30 <Bike> i think there's a PC version
20:58:31 <ais523> final fantasies have been on PC for ages
20:58:34 <Vorpal> A final fantasy for PC?!
20:58:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: There were a number of FF PC ports.
20:58:39 <ais523> but the console versions are normally better
20:58:40 <Bike> there was an FF7 for PC
20:58:44 <pikhq_> Final Fantasy XI is for the PS2, PC, and Xbox 360.
20:58:54 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 22m 11s ago: it seems lots of spam accounts are still editing, but never getting far enough to trigger the block
20:58:58 <Jafet> Dude Final Fantasy isn't even final
20:59:01 <Jafet> What do you expect
20:59:08 <ais523> Jafet: well it was potentially final at the time
20:59:08 <Bike> antepenultimate fantasy
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20:59:18 <ais523> the company didn't have enough money to produce another game after that one
20:59:20 <pikhq_> And yes, the expansions for it do come out on PS2.
20:59:31 <Vorpal> Jafet, I only ever played Final Fantasy 6, and in zsnes even.
20:59:37 <pikhq_> There's one coming out soon in fact.
20:59:41 <ais523> luckily they managed to keep going using the proceeds from it
20:59:45 <pikhq_> Vorpal: That is one of the better ones.
20:59:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, too many random encounters though
21:00:06 <Vorpal> Not a fan of that mechanic
21:00:33 <pikhq_> You might appreciate XII. Though honestly the gameplay kinda... sucks.
21:00:39 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I think Chrono Trigger did that much better, what with you seeing the enemies on screen, wasn't just a random battle after n steps
21:00:50 <pikhq_> Its saving grace is you can program the players, so you don't have to play the game. :P
21:00:52 <ion> XII had some good things about it.
21:00:58 <Vorpal> Also Secret of Mana even more so, you could evade there, no turn based battle either
21:01:00 <Bike> XII doesn't have random characters!
21:01:07 <pikhq_> And a lot of other stuff in it was great.
21:01:08 <Bike> perfect for vorpal
21:01:12 <ion> I mean, XIII
21:01:21 <Vorpal> is that the terrible one?
21:01:24 <pikhq_> It's just, the combat was excruciating.
21:01:29 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, XIII is the terrible one.
21:01:35 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XIII_%28video_game%29
21:01:39 <Vorpal> with Lightning or whatever the girl was called
21:01:54 <pikhq_> XII is the one with great bits and a combat system that *clearly* had the game devs hack in a way to make it actually playable.
21:01:55 <Fiora> XIII is the wonderful one
21:01:57 <Jafet> @google Final Fantasy XXX
21:01:58 <lambdabot> http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=1655820261
21:02:06 <Bike> what did you expect jafet
21:02:36 <Vorpal> yeah I'm not much of a final fantasy fan, Way too much repetitive grinding in FF VI, and that is the one I played. Great story though.
21:02:48 <pikhq_> People generally play them for the story.
21:02:50 <Vorpal> A well written LP on that would be far superior
21:02:54 <Fiora> there's a lot better RPG series IMO, yeah
21:03:01 <Fiora> final fantasy gets a lot of attention for some reason but it's not even the most popular series
21:03:12 <pikhq_> It's the best known series.
21:03:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, Planescape: Torment (not a series though). Lousy combat though.
21:03:20 <pikhq_> Due to being many people's introduction to the genre.
21:03:21 <Fiora> like, dragon quest is a lot more popular
21:03:30 <Vorpal> but man, Ps:T story. Nothing beats it.
21:03:33 <ais523> Vorpal: Planescape: Torment effectively belongs to the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series
21:03:39 <ais523> although it's quite different in nature to those other games
21:03:51 <Vorpal> ais523, eh, those are Forgotten Realm. Not Planescape
21:03:55 <Fiora> and there's also Tales and Ys and Golden Sun and Star Ocean
21:03:57 <Vorpal> Quite a different setting.
21:03:57 <Jafet> The combat is lousy for a reason
21:04:06 <ais523> and actually, there's a noticeable difference between JRPGs like Final Fantasy and WRPGs like Baldur's Gate
21:04:14 <Vorpal> Jafet, because Infinity Engine? Also some story reasons I guess.
21:04:15 <Bike> "unlike the final fantasy games, which sharea unified world"
21:04:32 <Bike> clearly the combat is terrible to make a deep point about pacifism
21:04:50 <Fiora> "share a unified world" pffffff
21:04:56 <ais523> but yeah, final fantasy games are pretty inconsistent setting-wise
21:04:58 <pikhq_> ais523: Yup. They're rather different genres, though coming from the same place.
21:05:07 <ais523> even FFXI and FFTA, which are meant to share a setting, have noticeable differences in their settings
21:05:08 <Vorpal> The way to make a good game about pacifism is to make a stealth game.
21:05:11 <pikhq_> Both originate as "D&D on computers!"
21:05:23 <Bike> i've read a few text files claiming to have unified the final fantasy plots
21:05:23 <Fiora> final fantasy's "thing" is that the game reinvents itself each game, instead of staying the same
21:05:27 <Fiora> (which can be both good and bad of course <.<)
21:05:29 <Bike> major waste of my time lemme tell you
21:05:29 <ais523> that was a misleading typo
21:05:41 <pikhq_> Bike: They've got highly inconsistent metaphysics.
21:05:50 <ais523> Bike: that made me literally facepalm for the first time in months
21:06:17 <ais523> Bike: you know what the word "facepalm" actually means, right? as in, you put your face in your palm in disbelief?
21:06:18 <pikhq_> I mean, one of the games literally has souls you can see when someone dies.
21:06:20 <Bike> pikhq_: Sin was made of a bunch of melted Vivis or something
21:06:25 <Vorpal> Anyway i never really liked the (admittedly few) JRPGs I played.
21:06:26 <Bike> ais523: in response to what
21:06:33 <ais523> someone trying to unify final fantasy plots
21:06:40 <Vorpal> While the story can be good, often the combat is pretty bad.
21:06:43 <Jafet> The way to make a good game about pacifism is to make it so that you can't hurt anything
21:06:47 <Bike> pikhq_: that's the level of discourse we're dealing with here
21:06:51 <Vorpal> Not much of a fan of turn based combat.
21:06:58 <Fiora> Vorpal: most JRPGs don't even have turn based combat...
21:06:58 <Vorpal> And definitely not a random encounter fan.
21:07:01 <ais523> I really like turn based combat
21:07:03 <Jafet> and maybe to make you want to hurt something (not necessarily in the game)
21:07:03 <Bike> ais523: well,nintendo released some semiofficial timeline of zelda or sth
21:07:06 <Fiora> and random encounters are largely rare nowadays
21:07:11 <ais523> anyway you might like WRPGs, they rarely have random encounters
21:07:18 <Vorpal> Fiora, well I mostly played ones from the SNES era, that either had turn based or pseudo-turn based
21:07:28 <Jafet> Timeline of zelda sounds like an oxymoron
21:07:29 <boily> pseudo-turn based?
21:07:32 <Fiora> Star Ocean I think was the only SNES game that had action combat
21:07:33 <ais523> and the combat is often at least vaguely realtime, although you're still just entering commands and waiting for the characters to cary them out
21:07:37 <Fiora> that I can think of
21:07:38 <pikhq_> boily: Probably referring to ATB.
21:07:41 <zzo38> The closest computer games to D&D and so on are probably the text adventure games.
21:07:42 <Vorpal> boily, like, if you wait to long you miss your chance
21:07:45 <boily> pikhq_: oh, right.
21:07:48 <Fiora> Star Ocean was really late in the SNES's life though
21:07:52 <ais523> alternatively… there's the mario&luigi series
21:07:52 <Fiora> it actually had voiced attacks and things
21:07:56 <Vorpal> boily, iirc Chrono Trigger was like that
21:07:57 <Bike> i had no idea there was a star ocean for snes
21:07:59 <pikhq_> FF9 was the last one using straight ATB...
21:08:02 <Fiora> the first star ocean was a snes game
21:08:06 <pikhq_> Bike: It didn't get a US release.
21:08:06 <Fiora> second was... PS1 I think
21:08:15 <boily> Vorpal: meh. I like to ponder, think, reflect, wait, stress and cogitate.
21:08:15 <Fiora> yeah, the remake was released in the US though, it's on PSP along with the second game.
21:08:23 <Fiora> the remake's really good. they went and fully voiced the whole game.
21:08:23 <Bike> then again there was a 3d star fox for snes too
21:08:23 <pikhq_> And there's a fan translation.
21:08:27 <Bike> i don'tknow a lot of things
21:08:35 <Fiora> and added boatloads of stuff
21:08:35 <pikhq_> It was voiced on the SNES. :)
21:08:37 <Vorpal> boily, I played good turn based games. They were not JRPGs though.
21:08:41 <Fiora> only the combat had voices, I think?
21:08:43 <Fiora> not the rest of the game
21:08:55 <Fiora> oh, the anime cutscenes
21:08:56 <Bike> SNES carts were big enough for that?
21:09:07 <boily> Vorpal: like civilization?
21:09:09 <Fiora> the PSP version has like, hours and hours of voiced content though
21:09:15 <Vorpal> boily, sure that works yes
21:09:16 <pikhq_> Bike: This was a particularly insane SNES cart.
21:09:21 <fizzie> The new Neverwinter MMO has some sort of "set rendering resolution independently of screen resolution" thing, except it's for scaling it down for speed.
21:09:26 <Vorpal> boily, anyway, a great story on it's own doesn't cut it for me. I need solid gameplay and I'm not a fan of grinding or repetition.
21:09:33 <pikhq_> Bike: It actually had a hardware decompressor for all its content.
21:09:38 <Fiora> fizzie: I think that's super common nowadays, like, most PS3 games don't actually render at 720p even
21:09:40 <Bike> pikhq_: so like star fox 2, sweet
21:09:48 <pikhq_> No. Star Fox 2 had a coprocessor.
21:09:50 <Vorpal> boily, Don't put in filler to make a game longer, either add more interesting stuff, or just make the experience shorter
21:09:58 <Bike> coprocessor, decompressor, sameshit
21:10:06 <Fiora> I don't think JRPGs are particularly bad on the filler side
21:10:06 <pikhq_> This was actually a thing that was just on the address bus.
21:10:12 <Fiora> like skyrim was wayyy grindier than any JRPG I have ever played
21:10:35 <Vorpal> Fiora, oh yeah, that is the nature of open world RPGs though
21:10:39 <Fiora> though I guess I've never played SNES-era ones
21:10:50 <pikhq_> Fiora: SNES carts can be pretty freaking crazy though.
21:10:51 <Fiora> I heard it was kind of a lot worse back then <.<
21:11:03 <Vorpal> I did put quite a few hours into Skyrim, but eventually I did get bored. The mods kept me going through quite a bit of it
21:11:09 <boily> Vorpal: that's something I really appreciate from the crawl dev team, for example. I fondly remember Vaults being 8 level deep, but it had to be shortened sooner or later.
21:11:09 <Vorpal> also Skyrim lacks depth.
21:11:11 <shachaf> Fiora: i thought jrpgs were entirely about grinding
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21:11:25 <Fiora> shachaf: cars are also entirely about racing
21:11:26 <FreeFull> NES cards had special chips built in too
21:11:29 <boily> Vorpal: a tight experience that keeps you tense all the way is what makes the essence of a great game.
21:11:32 <zzo38> I don't like the grinding and repetition either, but I have some ideas how to solve (what do will do, depends on the game): Make time limits. Make the respawn to increase the opponent's strength double than it does your own. Make the experience bonus decrease every time until eventually it is negative. There are others too.
21:11:32 <pikhq_> shachaf: That's a common element, not a necessary one.
21:11:53 <Vorpal> Witcher 2, that was a game that did most stuff right. I would say everything, but someone is bound to point out some issue with it that I forgot for the moment.
21:11:54 <pikhq_> FreeFull: The SNES chips go waaay beyond NES mappers or Famicom audio chips.
21:11:58 <fizzie> Fiora: Some of the drop rates in those things have been kind of ludicrous.
21:12:09 <Fiora> zzo38: final fantasy 13 actually levelcapped you heavily to force you to be smart in battles, so you couldn't grind until super late in the game
21:12:34 <pikhq_> FreeFull: You can literally replace the SNES CPU from a cartridge.
21:12:36 <zzo38> Fiora: Levelcaps might help a bit, but I think it is not enough.
21:12:46 <pikhq_> Or a lot of other shit.
21:12:48 <FreeFull> pikhq_: I think some SNES carts had 3D coprocessors?
21:12:55 <Fiora> tales has a built-in difficulty setting you can change at any time, so if you feel like you're too low level you can just lower the difficulty instead, or vice versa
21:12:57 <Bike> yeah, that's starfox
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21:13:25 <Fiora> dragon quest can be pretty grindy though. if you want it to be I guess
21:13:28 <Vorpal> FreeFull, there were other co-processors though. I know Super Mario RPG had some sort of co-processor
21:13:31 <pikhq_> FreeFull: That was a general-purpose RISC chip that just happened to be rendering polygons into the system framebuffer.
21:13:34 <Fiora> it has all the super crazy impossible post-game bosses for the grinders XD
21:13:49 <ais523> Fiora: most JRPGs have that
21:14:04 <fizzie> Many games can be pretty grindy if you want to play them a few levels above "normal" levels.
21:14:07 <Bike> what was the FFI one
21:14:07 <zzo38> It may also be possible to make simple cheat codes and/or patches to improve the game to not have grinding, I suppose.
21:14:12 <Bike> warbot or something
21:14:21 <ais523> most JRPGs are completable without grinding, although there are exceptions
21:14:33 <Bike> no idea why they even did that
21:14:39 <Fiora> fizzie: I think the winner in that category has to be disgaea though
21:14:44 <Fiora> (which is a completely wonderful series though)
21:14:50 <ais523> I think every final fantasy game except… 3? can be completed with no leveling up
21:15:07 <ais523> (2 doesn't /have/ levelling up)
21:15:13 <zzo38> I don't mean whether or not you can complete them by grinding; I mean to make it so that you are disadvantaged to grinding!
21:15:34 <pikhq_> FreeFull: That is, the SNES is structured as an asymmetric multiprocessing architecture, with pluggable processors.
21:15:40 <Fiora> atelier has that, I think? if you go out of your way to grind you'll probably make terribly inefficient use of your time because it's a limited-time game
21:15:45 <Fiora> and fighting monsters takes up in-game time
21:15:46 <Vorpal> ais523, I found that FF VI had pretty much forced grinding in the form of random encounters. It punished exploration in dungeons as well, since it happened every nth step (where n varied a bit, but was determined at the end of the previous battle)
21:16:02 <FreeFull> Nowadays it's more worthwile to just stuff as much computing power in the console itself
21:16:08 <Fiora> atelier totori didn't have random encounters either (besides like, very rare ones as special events on the world map?)
21:16:37 <Vorpal> ais523, run from battle? Sure, except not always.
21:16:54 <pikhq_> You can run from pretty much all but boss battles in FF games...
21:17:11 <fizzie> Often you can get the "no random battles" thing, too, though pretty late.
21:17:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, not if you got enemies from either sides in FF VI
21:17:15 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, even in the computer itself you might have multiple processors, though.
21:17:16 <ais523> there's some FF where speedrunners run from every battle
21:17:18 <pikhq_> Oh, right, it *did* that.
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21:17:25 <ais523> because in boss battles it makes your turn come sooner for some bizarre reason
21:17:28 <FreeFull> zzo38: It's not the same though
21:17:34 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I think FFVI is the only one that does that.
21:18:14 <ais523> in Pokémon, there's a consumable that prevents wild encounters from lower-level Pokémon (read: prevents wild encounters) for a while
21:18:25 <fizzie> pikhq_: VII has "pincer attacks" too.
21:18:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I know of that.
21:18:33 <pikhq_> fizzie: I do not remember that at *all*.
21:18:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think that were the ones I mentioned above?
21:19:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: You mentioned them in VI, unless I misread something.
21:20:27 <zzo38> Kirby 1 for GameBoy has terrible scoring, although the scoring can be greatly improved by CHANGING A SINGLE BYTE IN THE ROM. Maybe similar things can be done for other games, such as RPG style games, to improve so is not grinding so much?
21:20:28 <fizzie> http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_Formations says only VI and VII. I don't remember if they affected running in VII.
21:20:54 <pikhq_> Vorpal: For what it's worth, I generally think of grinding as one of the worst features in JRPGs. My basic mindset is that skill should be able to replace levelling to an extent.
21:21:03 <boily> Vorpal: a tight experience that keeps you tense all the way is what makes the essence of a great game.
21:21:10 <pikhq_> This also requires battle systems where skill is actually a factor, and not enough do that.
21:21:16 <fizzie> There's one game where you just spew out gold like some sort of a gold coin fountain when running from battle, I can't recall which.
21:21:20 <boily> (do not press ↑ in IRC. do not press ↑ in IRC.)
21:21:54 <zzo38> You can also make a game where leveling sometimes or always goes backwards.
21:22:35 <ais523> fizzie: Super Mario RPG and its sequels
21:22:43 <ais523> spamming A makes you lose less gold, IIRC
21:22:53 <Jafet> Why are game mechanics still based on tabletop game mechanics anyway
21:22:59 <ais523> in SMRPG, the timing of your button presses affects the damage things do
21:23:04 <pikhq_> Jafet: History, mostly.
21:23:12 <elliott> ais523: they should add something to penalise mashing buttons while trying to catch pokemon
21:23:26 <Fiora> pikhq_: play Ys, Tales, or Star Ocean?
21:23:30 <Bike> how many video games are actually based on tabletop mechanics nowadays
21:23:31 <ais523> it completely ignores input during that time, that's been proven
21:23:42 <pikhq_> Fiora: I have not. Well. Not long.
21:23:49 <Fiora> Ys in particular is murderously difficult
21:23:52 <Bike> i don'tthink even D&D games really do that any more
21:23:52 <elliott> ais523: it's satisfying to mash them
21:23:53 <Fiora> or maybe I am just bad, but
21:23:53 <pikhq_> Computer RPGs literally originate as computer adaptations of D&D.
21:23:55 <Jafet> Bike: any game wit hit points
21:24:04 <zzo38> Another thing to do with Pokemon game, is, make it so that the Game Corner is closed and so that experience from wild Pokemon battles is negative.
21:24:09 <Jafet> Do you walk around in real life with a number on your head
21:24:10 <pikhq_> It's basically a common thing in RPGs.
21:24:22 <Bike> Jafet: so, halo?
21:24:28 <ais523> zzo38: the Game Corner has been removed, as of Black/White
21:24:46 <fizzie> ais523: I think it was Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga that I was thinking of, yes.
21:24:54 <zzo38> (So for positive experience you need trainer battles)
21:24:56 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, that'd work
21:25:12 <ais523> SMRPG sort of forked into the M&L series and the Paper Mario series
21:25:25 <ais523> the main difference is that in Paper Mario, perfect timing means you take a bit less damage, and do a bit more
21:25:26 <elliott> i don't even remember what the game corner is
21:25:37 <Jafet> Bike: Halo has hit points
21:25:40 <Bike> i think it's where you got frustrated at roulette and got a poyrgon?
21:25:47 <ais523> in M&L, perfect timing means you do orders of magnitude more damage, and take no damage, and sometimes damage enemies on their turn
21:26:40 <zzo38> Computer RPG is not really like D&D; text adventure games are more like, I think.
21:26:43 <ais523> elliott: a building in Celadon, Goldenrod, Mauville, Veilstone, that contains slot machines and sometimes roulette tables
21:26:58 <ais523> zzo38: WRPGs tend to have large dialogue trees
21:27:02 <ais523> which are quite like D&D in that respect
21:27:37 <zzo38> ais523: That doesn't really make it all that much, I think
21:27:47 <nooodl_> i'm amazed that you know which four cities had game corners right off the bat
21:27:56 <Bike> text adventures are like D&D in that you get frustrated at the DM's stupid narration a lot, but unlike them in that you can't pay him to shut up with some soda
21:28:17 <zzo38> I never pay the DM to shut up by anything
21:28:21 <fizzie> The Neverwinter MMO I mentioned is "theoretically" based on 4th edition D&D, but it's really not. (E.g. "per-encounter" == thing with a cooldown, "daily" == whenever your action point bar has filled up; and the levels go up to 60. (Not that I know if 4th Ed does that.))
21:28:39 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Vorpal: For what it's worth, I generally think of grinding as one of the worst features in JRPGs. My basic mindset is that skill should be able to replace levelling to an extent. <-- to an extent yes...
21:28:39 <ais523> nooodl_: it took a few seconds to remember
21:28:49 <Vorpal> <boily> Vorpal: a tight experience that keeps you tense all the way is what makes the essence of a great game. <-- yes
21:28:56 <pikhq_> zzo38: They are *mechanically* like them intentionally.
21:29:09 <Vorpal> boily, that is why I like Witcher 2. Also Bastion.
21:29:11 <pikhq_> zzo38: In narrative structure, though, you're right.
21:29:18 <zzo38> I don't really like 4E D&D; I think it mess up a lot of things.
21:29:25 <zzo38> I also don't like "per-encounter" anything.
21:29:25 <Vorpal> boily, both are excellent games, you should try them if you haven't already.
21:29:36 <zzo38> I don't delimit the game into encounters.
21:29:40 <Bike> adopting unicode as the charset of Common was clearly a mistake
21:29:41 <ais523> they should have called D&D 4E something other than D&D
21:29:48 <ais523> and it'd be a lot more popular IMO
21:30:00 <ais523> just like Metroid Fusion should probably have been put into a different game series
21:30:03 <pikhq_> They just need to make AD&D 4.
21:30:07 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is what many people say.
21:30:10 <Bike> fusion was great :(
21:30:12 <elliott> 4E is probably good because people seem to complain about it a lot
21:30:34 <elliott> are you calling me a nerd for never having played d&d
21:30:38 <fizzie> Bike: Text adventures are like D&D in that you have to word everything *just* the right way, or else the DM just replies "I don't know how to 'word'".
21:30:38 <zzo38> It is also one thing I was designing Icosahedral RPG; in which many things are quite the opposite of 4E D&D. They should call that 4E Advanced D&D.
21:30:54 <Bike> fizzie: exactly
21:30:56 <Bike> elliott: exactly
21:31:14 <Bike> "I attack the gazebo." "I don't see a gazebo here"
21:31:18 <Fiora> elliott: basically anything that upsets grognards is probably a really good thing
21:31:27 <ais523> Pathfinder is pretty good
21:31:39 <ais523> it's basically a third-party attempt to continue D&D 3e (which is open source)
21:32:11 <ais523> Bike: and yeah, my point is that Fusion is a good game, but it's in the wrong series
21:32:21 <boily> Vorpal: I should, but time is more precious than spice mélange right now for me.
21:32:22 <Bike> well it's definitely more linear
21:32:32 <ais523> and so it looks a bit out of place among the other Metroid games
21:32:33 <Bike> that doesn't seem like enough to force a rebrand though
21:32:36 <zzo38> Maybe; but still, I prefer Icosahedral RPG. Icosahedral RPG involves mathematical ring theory, category theory, and so on, too.
21:32:38 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: thanks for the info
21:32:47 <nooodl_> i spent a couple days making a zork speedrun route. looking for parser shortcuts was tons of fun
21:32:49 <ais523> Bike: it's more to do with how the program handles error conditions
21:32:53 <Vorpal> boily, Bastion is pretty short though. You can beat it over a weekend.
21:33:08 <zzo38> Also, level adjustments are now called "pseudolevels" and all kind of creatures have it; not only some.
21:33:11 <Vorpal> boily, excellent story, no filler. Cool narrator.
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21:33:16 <Bike> elliott: metroid fusion, a GBA game about shooting aliens
21:33:16 <zzo38> Do you like this change?
21:33:22 <ais523> Bike: in Super Metroid, if you get to an item early, you get that item
21:33:24 <nooodl_> instead of the infamous "kill troll with sword. kill troll with sword. kill troll with sword." thing, i'd reduced it down to "cut it. g. g."
21:33:34 <fizzie> There was a NPC in Neverwinter lamenting how "in the old days" you could store magical spells in wands and staves, and how it's a shame they don't work like that these days. I assume that's some sort of a 4E joke.
21:33:35 <ais523> in Metroid Fusion, if you get to an item early, it gives you the wrong item or errors out
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21:33:43 <Bike> ais523: ? you can't sequence break in fusion, really?
21:33:48 <Vorpal> boily, it is an isometric action RPG I guess
21:33:54 <ais523> Bike: yep; a few sequence breaks have been found, but the game engine can't handle them
21:33:55 <Bike> i'm clearly not hardcore enough
21:33:58 <ais523> so the only usable ones are "minibreaks"
21:33:58 <zzo38> Another change is feats are earned more often, and ability score increases less often.
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21:34:19 <elliott> sequence breaking is when you're so lazy that you have two breaks in quick succession
21:34:20 <nooodl_> zzo38: how does icosahedral rpg involve CT, that sounds cool
21:34:21 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There was a NPC in Neverwinter lamenting how "in the old days" you could store magical spells in wands and staves, and how it's a shame they don't work like that these days. I assume that's some sort of a 4E joke. <-- in the MMO? In NWN2?
21:34:22 <ais523> there's also one intentional one which is freakishly difficult to pull off, but if you do it, the game basically tells you "well done, now do it properly"
21:34:33 <Vorpal> NWN1 is based on 3.5 iirc
21:34:43 <ais523> and the funny thing is, people have found a sequence-breaking way to pull off that sequence break in an unintended way, which is easier than the intended one
21:34:50 <ais523> Vorpal: it's based on 3.0
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21:34:53 <boily> Vorpal: hm. I think I may be able to find some spare hours out there in the wild. probably in around two or three weeks, after mothers day and 0.12 tournament.
21:35:02 <Bike> ais523: the speedshark thing? that's pretty funny
21:35:16 <ais523> Bike: the Secret Message
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21:35:25 <ais523> the intended way is chaining shinesparks
21:35:34 <Vorpal> boily, Witcher 2, while an excellent high fantasy action RPG with stunning visuals, will take you quite a bit longer though.
21:35:37 <zzo38> Also, alignment for kind of creatures is now "S" (stereotypical; most intelligent creatures, normally 12%), "A" (always; for demons/angels; normally 99.1%), "U" (unaligned; for normal animals), "X" (don't care; for humans, normally 11.111%)
21:35:46 <ais523> the unintended way involves using the game's anti-doppler-effect code to curve an ice missile around a corner, so you can avoid collecting the diffusion missiles
21:35:51 <Bike> those numbers seem pretty arbitrary
21:35:56 <ais523> then you have to go back and get them anyway because the game refuses to let you continue without htem
21:35:57 <zzo38> Spells form a mathematical category.
21:36:08 <Vorpal> boily, oh and I would say that Bastion is somewhat steampunk
21:36:09 <zzo38> Bike: Do you mean my numbers?
21:36:18 <Bike> zzo38: the percentages, yes
21:36:34 <nooodl_> what are the arrows between them?
21:36:35 <ais523> zzo38: you believe 1/3 of all humans are evil?
21:36:51 <zzo38> Bike: Well, they aren't arbitrary; they are carefully calculated. Also, "U" is 100% although it doesnt matter.
21:37:15 <boily> Vorpal: sleep is for wimps. the need to eat is a fallacy of the mind. the urge to play bastion is getting stronger with your compelling arguments.
21:37:17 <zzo38> ais523: Not sure, but I was giving example. In this game it is normally assumed so, though.
21:37:38 <Vorpal> ais523, which game is that, with the sequence break?
21:37:44 <ais523> Vorpal: Metroid Fusion
21:37:50 <zzo38> Also, it can be relative; it is not always absolute; "Detect Evil" and so on are not based on inherent alignments but on circumstances.
21:37:58 <Vorpal> ais523, what sort of game is that?
21:38:00 <ais523> you can compare it to Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
21:38:03 <Bike> maybe i should mention i've only played fusion and zero mission (and the original)
21:38:07 <Bike> Vorpal: metroidvania
21:38:08 <Vorpal> ais523, not a 2D metroidvania?
21:38:10 <ais523> which is similarly linear in intent, except sequence breaking actually works
21:38:16 <ais523> Vorpal: Metroid Fusion is a 2D metroidvania
21:38:28 <Vorpal> I only ever played Super Metroid
21:38:32 <nooodl_> ais523: you could say you're evil iff you're in the most evil 1/3 of people
21:38:32 <ais523> in general, you can assume all Metroid games are metroidvanias, even if some are excessively linear
21:38:43 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't there one that is a FPS?
21:38:51 <ais523> Vorpal: the Metroid Prime series are FPSes
21:38:56 <ais523> but nonetheless Metroidvanias
21:39:09 <ais523> Metroid Prime 1 is almost as good as Super Metroid
21:39:18 <nooodl_> sort all living people by alignment, the lowest 1/3 is evil, the highest 1/3 is good hth
21:39:23 <ais523> if you don't mind being spoiled on it (e.g. you never intend to play it), watch a video of someone playing it
21:39:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I got bored with super metroid, trying to find where I was supposed to go next
21:39:49 <ais523> Vorpal: Prime's solution is an optional Hint System
21:39:51 <Vorpal> also not a fan of the SNES controls.
21:39:55 <ais523> which tells you where to go next in the intended sequence of the game
21:40:00 <elliott> Bike: how did you calculate 99.1%
21:40:06 <ais523> which you can turn off if you don't like it
21:40:08 <mnoqy> metroids control too clunkily for me :(
21:40:10 <Vorpal> dpad for shooting isn't all that good IMO
21:40:20 <zzo38> As well as the two axes (L/C and G/E), there is also the prefix, one of those four, followed by the letter for each axis; the letter for each axis can also be "X", however, for example "UNN", "AXE", and "XXX".
21:40:31 <ais523> the original Metroid Prime releases control like Zelda games
21:40:59 <ais523> they got updated rereleases with a second control scheme
21:41:13 <ais523> where holding L would lock the camera to hold your target in the centre of the screen
21:41:20 <Vorpal> ais523, to me FPS is about skilled aiming.
21:41:29 <ais523> but you could aim at other things too
21:41:30 <Vorpal> Which is why FPS on consoles confuse me
21:41:40 <Vorpal> you can't aim well with a game pad
21:41:42 <zzo38> elliott: First I can say how 12% is calculated: It is just because of the dice used. (I wanted to omit the d10 because it isn't Platonic, but it is needed for many things so I didn't.) This means roll the dice d10 and 1 to 9 corresponds to LE to CG (or whatever). For the 99.1%, it is also due to the dice, but this time the listed alignment is almost always selected.
21:41:51 <Vorpal> You really need a mouse for a quick skilled aiming.
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21:41:53 <ais523> Vorpal: well Metroid Prime is a metroidvania
21:42:14 <ais523> yeah but the metroidvania side of things gets more focus
21:42:16 <Vorpal> ais523, also you can't z-target with the bow can you in OOT at least?
21:42:20 <ais523> a lot of 3D platforming, for instance
21:42:30 <ais523> and you can shoot at things
21:42:31 <boily> I always get lost in FPSes.
21:42:33 <ais523> = it's a first person shooter
21:42:39 <ais523> but the game isn't about first person shooting
21:42:45 <Bike> old fpss are the worst for getting lost
21:42:51 <mnoqy> do you get lost irl (maybe only if you're carrying a gun?)
21:42:54 <ais523> and yeah, it has L-targeting
21:42:56 <Vorpal> ais523, 3D platforming in first person tends to be abysmal. Only game I played that I felt did that right was Mirror's Edge.
21:43:02 <Bike> especially when they give you a 2d map of a complicated 3d space uuuuugh
21:43:22 <nooodl_> zzo38: where can i read about this category of spells / icosahedral rpg in general
21:43:26 <ais523> Bike: Metroid Prime gives you a 3D map
21:43:27 <boily> mnoqy: I should try and see if I get lost while carrying a gun.
21:43:30 <ais523> because it has complicated 3D spaces
21:43:32 <zzo38> This alignment prefix is similar to the "always", "usually", "often" in D&D 3.5E, but the standard campaign changes its meaning a lot; if "S" people tend to believe it even though it isn't usually the case!
21:43:38 <Bike> ais523: yeah i've seen it in the third one
21:43:42 <Vorpal> <mnoqy> do you get lost irl (maybe only if you're carrying a gun?) <-- no not really, though I never carry a gun. I don't live in a country where that is legal
21:43:45 <Bike> ais523: i just wanted to complain anonymously about marathon
21:45:14 <Vorpal> ais523, so how did the 3D platforming feel in Metroid Prime?
21:45:32 <zzo38> nooodl_: I don't really have much written on the computer. I can explain other mathematical things about it, though: A "mana" is a multiset of elements taken from {w,u,b,r,g}, and a "multimana" is a multiset of manas. The sum of multimanas is their multiset sum. The product of multimanas is the Cartesian product using the multiset sum as its underlying operation. I also made a partial ordering on them.
21:45:33 <ais523> Vorpal: it looks quite good to me
21:45:39 <ais523> note that I haven't actually played most of the games I know a lot about
21:45:42 <Vorpal> ais523, as good as Mirror's Edge?
21:45:44 <ais523> I just watch a lot of streams and videos
21:45:59 <ais523> I'd say it gives you a bit more control than Mirror's Edge
21:46:29 <ais523> the only time people seem to have difficulty is when they're trying to do glitches
21:46:39 <ais523> especially, ones that rely on the camera being in the wrong place
21:46:43 <Vorpal> Btw I got the latest humble bundle, sadly Costume Quest does not run properly for me on Linux
21:46:49 <ais523> like, you can move a camera into a good place to see the jump
21:46:52 <Vorpal> As in, it draws much larger than the screen
21:46:53 <zzo38> Also, Icosahedral RPG has no default encounter experience, or any "per-encounter" anything. Experience points are assigned by the referee whatever you want; normally story awards.
21:47:01 <Vorpal> and thus I can't see the entire main menu
21:47:03 <ais523> but having the camera stuck behind a wall lets you jump higher, so people get it stuck intentionally
21:47:05 <Vorpal> never seen that before
21:47:27 <zzo38> What is your opinion of all of these kind of ideas (including pseudolevels)?
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21:48:21 <Jafet> Mirror's Edge is really a single player racing game http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FDD2563A3897DC7
21:48:34 <nooodl_> pseudolevels sound like they could just be called levels
21:48:49 <nooodl_> either way i don't know enough about role playing games to really have an opinion
21:49:01 <zzo38> nooodl_: Well, they aren't; they don't do anything levels do other than the experience points.
21:49:56 <zzo38> Also, spells are learned using templates.
21:50:22 <zzo38> The default method of generating ability scores in this game is Goldilock's Method.
21:51:13 <Bike> how was goldilocks as a roleplayer
21:51:37 <Jafet> Somewhere in the middle, I expect
21:53:03 <Vorpal> <Jafet> Mirror's Edge is really a single player racing game http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FDD2563A3897DC7 <-- if you speedrun it yet
21:53:13 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know, but that isn't quite it. It is simply another method for generating ability scores, involving both randomness and choice, in a bit more complicated way than the standard 4d6 drop lowest, and the total almost always makes 74; if it turns out less you get 1 bonus point for every 3 less, but it doesn't happen often.
21:53:21 <nooodl_> every game is really a single player racing game
21:53:24 <Jafet> How else do you play that game
21:53:59 <fizzie> What's that called when you see your dude from behind, like in a third-person thing, but you still have a targeting reticle in the middle of the screen that you use for doing things, and moving the mouse rotates the camera, like in a first-person thing?
21:54:36 <ais523> fizzie: I guess it's still a third-person shooter
21:54:42 <ais523> I've seen a 2D game with those controls
21:54:44 <ais523> and thought of it as a 3PS
21:55:07 <zzo38> The four standard classes are Fighter, Expert, Divine, and Arcane. Fighter is the only combat-oriented class; others are not so good at combat. Arcane is the most complicated class to understand and play, but can interest people who are interested in these kind of things.
21:55:45 <zzo38> (Well, there is also "Commoner", which is simply leveling your racial HD; this is not the same as the D&D "Commoner" class.)
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22:01:41 <Vorpal> <Jafet> How else do you play that game <-- for the story?
22:01:59 <Vorpal> the story is not that good
22:02:09 <zzo38> I do have some things about Icosahedral RPG in a book I have been writing in by hand, though. The "Fundamental Rule" is "There are exceptions to all rules, including this one". Text adventure games are mentioned in the introduction; it is also mentioned that a player character can be human, or other species; monster characters are also allowed, and multiclassing is allowed, etc.
22:02:24 <nooodl_> i definitely enjoyed the mirror's edge univeres
22:02:34 <zzo38> It also mentions that five of the six dice shapes used are Platonic solids.
22:02:39 <nooodl_> just running around and looking at stuff
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22:06:40 <fizzie> ais523: But what if you mostly hack at things and rather rarely shoot things?
22:07:13 <ais523> Metroid Prime doesn't really have any melee weapons (the flamethrower doesn't count), so I'm out of things to compare to
22:07:26 <ais523> zzo38: the d10 shape is the dual of a pentagonal antiprism
22:09:37 <zzo38> ais523: OK, but it still isn't a Platonic solid.
22:10:00 <zzo38> (And these five are the only five possible Platonic solids.)
22:10:01 <ais523> zzo38: indeed; it does belong to a mathematically recognised class of polyhedra, though
22:10:07 <ais523> (which incidentally all make fair dice)
22:10:38 <zzo38> Perhaps I should mention that, then.
22:11:03 <ais523> it's a superset of the Platonic solids
22:11:26 <ais523> and is infinite, but only finitely many aren't the duals of prisms or antiprisms
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22:14:13 <zzo38> I happen to think all of these rules which are changed from D&D, such as magic, alignment prefix, etc, make the game far more interesting (and probably a bit more difficult too); the mathematical stuff also makes it interesting, especially to people who like mathematics.
22:15:35 <zzo38> Another thing is that high-level spellcasters that want to have a large selection of spells available will need to have a lot of strength and/or a lot of spell mastery.
22:17:02 <zzo38> What is called the "DM" or "GM" in other games is normally called the "referee" in this game.
22:17:18 <Bike> who does the plot?
22:18:37 <zzo38> Mostly the referee does the plot, but it also changes depending on what choices the players make during the game.
22:19:26 <zzo38> (And partially on the choices made before the game, such as character species/class/skills/backstory)
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22:43:10 <zzo38> Some of these things can easily be made to work with D&D 3.5E as well: Simply assign level adjustments to those that don't have, use Goldilock's Method for generating ability scores (I already do this), make it so that listed alignments (even if it says "Always") are only what people believe (due to confirmation bias?) and not what it actually is, and you can assign experience points differently; there are many other variations.
22:43:18 <zzo38> Do you like any of these variations?
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22:44:56 <zzo38> (Also, in Icosahedral RPG all core rules are in one book, not three; furthermore, it is arranged very differently. Magic items are listed with mundane, humans and other species are listed with monsters, etc)
22:49:58 <zzo38> Do any of you make any computer games? What programming language/target machine/operating system/etc?
22:50:14 <zzo38> I have various ideas of computer games; do you have some idea please?
22:50:49 <Bike> programming language seems like a weird question for game-making
22:51:02 <Bike> it's (almost, sorta) like asking an author what font they use
22:51:09 <hagb4rd|tempsane> <3 Karin Dreijer Andersson ..thanks sweden :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3XkZbVB2qw&hd=1
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22:51:52 <zzo38> Well, if it is applicable to the game you are making, what font do you use?
22:52:23 <zzo38> But I meant, such as, if it is written in C then it might be compatible with many computers if it uses console I/O or SDL, for example.
22:52:39 <zzo38> If in assembly language it is only for one computer (although you can use it on others with emulators).
22:52:45 <Bike> that doesn't seem like a very interesting question to ask
22:52:52 <Bike> it's not about the content or anything
22:53:41 <zzo38> You are correct, but I still want to know what computer it runs on; the font is not important.
22:54:53 <zzo38> My change to Kirby DreamLand 1 for GameBoy is to change the byte at 0x186D8 in the ROM image file from 0x3D to 0xA7, and then try to complete the game with the lowest score possible.
22:55:56 <zzo38> What game did you make up, or even just any ideas you have, even if you did not program it (yet)?
22:56:02 <FreeFull> What does changing the byte do?
22:57:07 <Bike> me personally? an grand theft auto ish game where you play as an NKVD agent in alt-history xinjiang. i will probably never make it.
22:57:19 <zzo38> FreeFull: Gives you infinite lives. (Normally, you lose half your points when you continue. Since I changed the goal to completing the game with the lowest score, giving you infinite lives fixes it.)
22:58:26 <zzo38> Adding a timer would improve it even more, but doing that would be more complicated.
22:59:46 <FreeFull> How many points do you get from bosses?
23:00:13 <zzo38> FreeFull: I don't know, but you get more points if you miss!
23:01:01 <zzo38> (You can also get infinite lives with a PAR code, but because I am playing the game on a GameBoy emulator on the GameBoy Advance (running on the Nintendo DS, actually), which does not support cheat codes, I modified the ROM image instead.)
23:02:23 <zzo38> If you eat the apple you get 10 points and then you can throw it at them; if you hit them enough times then you can progress; otherwise you miss and you have these 10 points and you need more to try again. Therefore, you get more points if you miss!
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23:05:43 <zzo38> Bike: Well, include it in a list of computer game ideas, possibly with more details, whether or not you ever make it. I have various idea of computer games too, some of which I have programmed.
23:07:28 <zzo38> One idea I have is a puzzle game for the Famicom, with pieces placed on the grid, which in addition to individual tiles is also split into 2x2 areas, each of which can contain no more than one non-white color of pieces; attempting to move a yellow piece into a 2x2 area already containg a red one will result in the piece not being moved.
23:07:42 <zzo38> (This takes advantage of a limitation in the Famicom PPU)
23:09:22 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
23:14:43 <zzo38> Another idea is this: You have to save the monsters from various things (other monsters, human sorcerers, the weather, etc), and touching any monsters (good or bad) by bare hands causes instant death; therefore you have to wear gloves. However, gloves prevent you from wearing rings and activating fingerprint scanners, and takes up part of your maximum carrying weight. Gloves can be used for other things too.
23:16:29 <zzo38> Do you like this one?
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23:23:34 <Bike> `welcome nagor
23:23:37 <HackEgo> nagor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:25:49 <Sgeo> ClamAV thinks wormkit's infected
23:26:36 <elliott> Bike: well if you got welcomed by a bike you'd be pretty freaked out
23:26:49 <Sgeo> Addons thingy for Worms: Armageddon
23:26:54 <Sgeo> Well, more of a mods thingy
23:27:00 <Bike> elliott: *I* wouldn't
23:27:07 <elliott> that's because you're weird
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23:27:38 <Sgeo> Fuck it, I'll quarantine everything
23:28:04 <Bike> it's because i'm a BIKE you RACIST
23:28:49 <zzo38> Maybe you should check to see what is causing it to say such thing. You can also try using a virtual machine.
23:29:02 <Sgeo> I just want my Windows system to work again
23:29:04 <zzo38> How many people in this channel are weird?
23:29:05 <Bike> bikes aren't weird!!!
23:29:09 <Sgeo> I miss when it worked
23:29:21 <Sgeo> And was usably fast
23:29:24 <Bike> systems don't "work" sgeo
23:29:51 <zzo38> Well, Windows does that; it stops working, especially if it is used in the way they are normally being used.
23:33:28 <zzo38> Do you like either of my two ideas of computers games? I have even more idea other than that too; do *you* have any more ideas than just one please?
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23:36:23 <boily> zzo38: I'm thinking about making a brainfuck derivative. I think that's a pretty good idea, too.
23:37:56 <zzo38> boily: I think you need to be more specific.
23:39:16 <Sgeo> http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/amanda_berry_is_dead_psychic_t.html
23:40:03 <boily> zzo38: it involves fax, printers and scanners in a network, acting as tape cells.
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23:58:09 <zzo38> boily: Write about it in esolang wiki.
23:59:34 <zzo38> Another idea of computer game is, Pokemon game for the Z-machine.
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00:33:18 <Koen_> if you do that zzo38 I'm totally playing
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00:37:03 <kmc> Pokemon game for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine
00:42:43 <Sgeo> So. In general. Fuck ... actually, I'm not really annoyed at anything right now
00:43:36 <Bike> if it helps i'm annoyed at computers
00:43:41 <Bike> so imo, in general, fuck
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01:15:38 <elliott> does anyone really understand how free variables work
01:15:59 <shachaf> left adjoint to forgetful variables hth
01:17:38 <ion> Hope this helps. Helps.
01:18:16 <Bike> is this a category thing again
01:20:18 <elliott> actually this is incredibly frustrating
01:20:22 <elliott> i have no idea how anything is supposed to work
01:21:12 <shachaf> Bike: a free functor is left adjoint to a forgetful functor hth
01:21:33 <shachaf> Bike: (and a cofree functor is right adjoint to a forgetful functor hth)
01:21:37 <Bike> yes but variables what
01:21:40 <Bike> y'all fucking suck
01:21:55 <shachaf> fizzie: what if the regexp ends with "hth)" or "hth."? hth
01:22:06 <shachaf> fizzie: "regexp" is now a euphemism for "string" hth
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01:31:49 <Sgeo> What is a program calling itself "Microsoft Windows Operating System" doing in msconfig?
01:32:33 <Sgeo> According to Google it's legit wtf
01:32:49 <Sgeo> Even the filename sounds suspicious
01:33:03 <Bike> you sure about that legitimacy dude
01:33:04 <pikhq_> Ah, yes, that's the peer to peer messaging service in Windows.
01:33:11 <pikhq_> Yes, that's actually in Windows.
01:33:17 <pikhq_> It's stupid as shit, but it's part of the OS.
01:33:51 <zzo38> Maybe it can be disabled if not used
01:34:46 <copumpkin> yeah, I love those really shady sounding services
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01:41:01 <kmc> `addquote <Sgeo> So. In general. Fuck ... actually, I'm not really annoyed at anything right now
01:41:05 <HackEgo> 1033) <Sgeo> So. In general. Fuck ... actually, I'm not really annoyed at anything right now
01:41:25 <zzo38> Just disable them if you don't use them, even if legitimate; except the ones required for the operating system to function in general.
01:42:06 <kmc> that's what i do for gnome
01:42:38 <elliott> kmc: do you know about free variables
01:43:13 <shachaf> elliott: de bruijn index > number of lambdas hth
01:44:49 <kmc> i am not a number, i'm a free variable! (the joke is about locally nameless representations of lambda calculus)
01:45:23 <shachaf> conor mcbride already made that joke hth
01:46:24 <kmc> conor mcbride has already made every joke
01:46:29 <Bike> what the hell are you talking about elliott!
01:46:55 <elliott> this paper literally has bound free variables
01:47:53 <Bike> like... quantification over variables, or...
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01:49:25 <elliott> no as in its constructor for free variables takes a data type which has a constructor for bound variables
01:49:49 <elliott> and there's a separate constructor for actually bound variables
01:50:09 <Bike> i refuse to believe this is a real explanation
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01:53:14 <pikhq_> Perhaps you should take out your rage on important problems.
01:56:43 <kmc> in general, fuck
01:57:11 <elliott> how about you do this for me instead
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02:01:30 <kmc> how about no
02:01:48 <kmc> the donkey died, you're the donkey now elliott
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02:20:05 <zzo38> Another idea of computer game is a cross of Tetris and pinball; the flippers could also move the tetris blocks left/right, and then you can nudge the table to make the ball bounce off of the blocks in certain ways, which are worth different number of points; maybe four lines at once gives you a ball saver
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02:49:02 * Sgeo vaguely suspects a hardware problem
02:49:19 <kmc> suspect it of what?
02:49:42 <Sgeo> Is it plausible that one OS might behave worse than another, but both behave badly, in the presence of a hardware problem?
02:49:49 <kmc> very much so
02:49:53 <Sgeo> Causing the massive slowdowns and pain I've been having for a while
02:50:11 <Sgeo> On both Windows and Linux.
02:50:25 <Sgeo> I've been sort of blaming the Linux issues on using an obsolete distro
02:50:29 <Sgeo> But now I'm wondering...
02:50:42 <Bike> is kubuntu obscure
02:51:01 <kmc> kubuntu should have the same drivers as regularbuntu
02:52:38 <Sgeo> :( http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/business/media/cablevision-picks-up-glenn-becks-internet-channel.html?_r=0
02:52:44 <kmc> is any particular operation slow?
02:52:50 <kmc> any errors in dmesg?
02:53:22 <Sgeo> [ 509.462816] ecryptfs_read_and_validate_header_region: Error reading header region; rc = [-4]
02:53:29 <Sgeo> That's just the last line of dmesg
02:54:40 <kmc> anything else? disk IO errors?
02:55:03 <kmc> btw ecryptfs sucks; if you end up re-installing I recommend full-disk encryption with LUKS
02:55:16 <kmc> which is something the Debian installer can set up automatically, and probably Ubuntu as well
02:56:28 * Bike "dmesg | grep -i error", sees fs has been remounted five times
03:02:28 <Sgeo> No problems ATM
03:02:33 <Sgeo> They usually get worse later
03:03:08 <kmc> 'top' may also be useful, see if the time is spent on CPU or on IO waiting, and what processes are associated
03:03:18 <kmc> then you can strace those processes and see what the slow operations are
03:04:55 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sXTrlZeDyg
03:06:45 <elliott> okay i have diagnosed one facet of my tiredness problem
03:06:59 <elliott> i meant to type variable problem
03:07:35 <Singingboyo> well you've certainly proved that you're tired.
03:08:14 <elliott> imo, both of you can shut right up.
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03:29:29 <elliott> maybe i should get drunk and then try to write this typechecker
03:37:30 <zzo38> Is it supposed to be a drunk typechecker?
03:41:35 <elliott> it can be any kind of typechecker
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03:43:23 <zzo38> Why should you get drunk to write it unless you are writing a drunken typechecker?
03:44:28 <kmc> this is some good logic
03:49:55 <elliott> zzo38: well if i am drunk then maybe all this will be less irritating and i will blurt out some working code
03:50:38 <Sgeo> So, languages whose static typecheckers pass all input programs are common, and often loved by some for this feature. How about a language where no programs pass the static typechecker?
03:50:45 <Sgeo> What would such a type system be like?
03:50:57 <Sgeo> The former is often done by having one type
03:51:33 <shachaf> the initial object in the category of type systems?????????
03:52:26 <Bike> well, you could have the trivial typechecker of "fuck you"
03:52:30 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you can try if you want to
03:52:35 <Bike> i guess you could also have a type checker that never halts?
03:52:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Is there a category of type systems?????????????????????/
03:52:57 <Bike> is there shachaf
03:53:41 <elliott> Bike: worse, i could have Bike as my typechecker
03:53:42 <Sgeo> Bike, I want an equivalent of "fuck you" expressed in terms of a type theory that goes "fuck you"
03:53:59 <Sgeo> *effectively goes
03:54:18 <Bike> Sgeo: so you have a type checker that's a program that ignores its input and writes "fuck you" on the terminal.
03:54:29 <Bike> aka elliott, maybe.
03:55:08 <Sgeo> no static type checker : static type checker passes everything : everything is the same type :: fuck you to everything : static type checker that rejects all programs : ???
03:56:19 <Bike> can you do analogy syntax like that? i don't know if i can handle this.
03:57:23 <Bike> That doesn't even make sense. "no static type checker" is analogous to "fuck you to everything"?
03:58:07 <Sgeo> No static type checker is sort of opposite to fuck you to everything
03:58:27 <Sgeo> Well, hmm, not quite
03:59:03 <Bike> What you mean is: "everything passes : static type checker that passes everything : everything is the same type :: no program passes : static type checker that rejects everything : ???"
03:59:42 <Bike> I guess the obvious would be that everything is a different type. And there's no punning or anything.
04:00:36 <Sgeo> Esolang idea, I guess
04:00:52 <Sgeo> Do languages where no programs compile but for interesting reasons count as esolangs?
04:01:20 <Bike> it's better than a brainfuck derivative, anyway.
04:01:41 <Bike> you should write a compiler that gives detailed explanations of why your program, specifically, won't compile. and have it do that for all programs
04:01:48 <Bike> also have it say "fuck" a lot and call it elliottson.
04:02:31 <Sgeo> Well, it should have a syntax
04:02:58 <Bike> Obviously. You need something to reject.
04:03:39 <shachaf> Bike: There is shachaf, yes.
04:04:44 <shachaf> I fell asleep in the afternoon until the evening. :-(
04:04:56 <shachaf> Now it's midnight and I won't sleep.
04:14:45 <zzo38> Does vi or emacs have any extensions to ring the bell when the cursor moves near the end of the line?
04:15:46 <Bike> you could certainly write that.
04:18:22 <zzo38> Now I am writing the "Aberration Saver" prestige class into the computer.
04:31:34 <Lymia> "(4-3-2). Further applications of programming techniques, introducing the fundamental concepts of data structures and algorithms. Topics include recursion, fundamental data structures (including stacks, queues, linked lists, hash tables, trees, and graphs), and algorithmic analysis. Recommended prerequisite: COSC 1437."
04:31:37 <Lymia> This is a course description.
04:31:49 <Lymia> Guess how many semesters in this is, going by recommended preequisites
04:33:40 <zzo38> Well, I don't know what "COSC 1437" is so I cannot guess very well.
04:33:44 <coppro> ok, my job is both sweet
04:45:37 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy oh i remememembered the amazing discovery
04:52:11 <zzo38> I made this list of idea of computer games: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10081
04:55:18 <shachaf> the wheels on the Bike go round and round hth
05:00:31 <Lymia> he course is called "Programming Fundamentals III"
05:00:58 <Bike> yeah, i hada class that sounded about the same, and i think it was just a semester
05:10:31 <zzo38> What bothers me a lot about most web browser programs is that it treats URLs entered in the location bar as absolute (my own treats them as relative). What is your opinion?
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05:11:28 <Bike> if i'm entering URLs myself something is going wrong anyway
05:12:42 <zzo38> Bike: It is? Are you sure?
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05:13:07 <zzo38> I always enter them myself, and I find the relative entry very useful.
05:13:23 <Bike> yeah, i usually use a search (like wikipedia's), or, you know, hyperlink
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05:14:06 <zzo38> Well, I *often* enter them myself; I do use search (such as Wikipedia), hyperlink, speeddials, etc too.
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05:17:04 <mnoqy> whats the amazing discovery
05:17:14 <shachaf> it turns out to be "not "so amazing""
05:17:24 <mnoqy> oh what is it anyway
05:17:38 <shachaf> It's so unamazing it's embarrassing.
05:17:52 <mnoqy> oh..............what is it anyway :>
05:18:48 <shachaf> It's too embarrassing to share.
05:19:38 <mnoqy> oh.........................................what is it anyway :»
05:20:06 <shachaf> mnoqy don't do this to me :⋘
05:20:39 <shachaf> Bike: I'm basically elliott now. Should I go to sleep?
05:21:14 <shachaf> Is "God" like "Simon Says"?
05:21:20 <kmc> i like how typing search terms into the URL bar was a quintessential "old person bad at computers" thing and then it basically became the only way people use the url bar within the space of a few years
05:21:45 <shachaf> kmc: It's a conspiracy by old people.
05:21:50 <Bike> Old people are a pretty good basis for how computer interfaces should work, really.
05:21:53 <zzo38> kmc: To me, if I search in the URL bar it is always with a prefix starting with a colon, such as ":w " for Wikipedia.
05:21:54 <Jafet> Computer-assisted dementia
05:22:10 <Bike> That's why I also whisper conspiratorially into my watch
05:22:17 <Bike> always. also. same word
05:22:21 <zzo38> Bike: I don't think so. I think it is a good basis for people who don't know how to use a computer should learn or not use it at all.
05:22:40 <Bike> but it's so easy for them
05:22:46 <shachaf> guess how much an advertisement on supermegacomics.com goes for
05:22:50 <Bike> "i want my computer to do this. well, i guess i'll try doing this thing and then it'll work."
05:23:04 <Bike> and then it works if they have a modern browser and otherwise you charge them for tech support.
05:23:11 <mnoqy> shachaf: how much???
05:23:21 <shachaf> apparently ~¢6???????????????????????????
05:23:33 <Bike> that's not many.
05:23:33 <shachaf> should i bid on advertisings
05:23:45 <Bike> You should make an ad teling elliott to go the fuck to sleep.
05:23:58 <shachaf> elliott doesn't even read super mega
05:24:00 <Bike> does elliott read supermegacomics
05:24:11 <shachaf> I should make an ad saying "hi monqy".
05:24:18 <elliott> i read super mega before you did
05:24:20 <Bike> well, you should make an ad for supermegacomics, so that elliott will see it and think "huh, maybe i should check this shit out"
05:24:33 <zzo38> kmc: What I mainly do with the URL entry is to enter relative URLs, such as "/" to access the root page, and to enter searches with prefixes, and sometimes full URLs. Mozilla does it the other (more common) way and I don't like that Firefox has no way to turn that feature off and change it! It is a stupid feature!
05:24:34 <Bike> that's how elliott talks btw.
05:25:00 <shachaf> Bike: Can you say "hth" a bit more? It would be easier to understand you. hth
05:25:01 <Bike> zzo do you actually like how any of the programs on your computers work
05:25:12 <Bike> shachaf: is that like "fuckshitter"
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05:26:16 <shachaf> That would be nōh or something like that, wouldn't it?
05:26:32 <zzo38> Bike: Well, some are OK, such as TeX (although they added something which results in a bug relating to file number 18, and I don't like that); most of my own programs are also OK (which is why I write them that way), and some others may be OK but many are badly designed.
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05:26:58 <Bike> I don't think I can have a character with ¯ and ° at the same time...
05:27:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you report the bug?
05:27:22 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't have an account to report the bug, nor am I sure who is responsible.
05:27:30 <Bike> OK, back up a second here.
05:27:46 <Bike> You write your programs in a good way because your programs are OK?
05:27:48 <shachaf> zzo38: An account? Just email it to Knuth.
05:28:04 <Sgeo> Writing your own web browser could be a bad idea if there's someone who is targetting you specifically and has access to the browser's code
05:28:26 <zzo38> It isn't Knuth who put that bug in, and neither me nor Knuth has email.
05:28:27 <Bike> writing your own browser is a bad idea for so many other reasons
05:28:34 <Sgeo> Web browsers are tricky to get right, I think. Websites try to do the right thing by knowing the oddities of modern browsers.
05:28:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Knuth replied to my email.
05:28:56 <shachaf> "achievement unlocked" hth
05:29:01 <Sgeo> But if your own browser has a security flaw, you can't expect websites to know about it and work to avoid making it exploitable.
05:29:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, I am using Mozilla-based; furthermore, I think all of them (Mozilla, WebKit, etc) are way too complicated.
05:29:52 <Jafet> All browsers have gaping security holes
05:30:12 <Jafet> Insult maternal ancestor here
05:30:18 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes; namely, HTML, HTTP, CSS, JavaScript, Flash, Java, etc.
05:30:26 <zzo38> And I do know about security; I always make sure to secure it whenever security is relevant (sometimes it isn't, and in those cases I usually omit those things in order to improve the performance instead)
05:31:58 <zzo38> Often there are security issues dealing with buffer overflows, out of memory, infinite loops, etc; Internet Quiz Engine doesn't even have any buffers and the programming language it implements has no backward flow control (so there is no infinite loops).
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06:49:07 <zzo38> I will define "key move" in my Pokemon card puzzles to mean all the actions you take before the first thing that is beyond your control which immediately affects you.
06:49:14 <zzo38> Is this reasonable?
06:51:32 <kmc> do you have a precise definition of "immediately affects you"?
06:51:54 <zzo38> However, the order doesn't matter to distinguish possible key moves if this order does not affect anything relevant.
06:52:47 <zzo38> kmc: No, but I do have an example; activating RATTATA [Lv12]'s power to switch the cards does not affect you until you actually draw that card.
06:56:42 <zzo38> These puzzles do not follow all the aesthetics of chess problems; I do not consider all of them important. Many of these puzzles are "dressed" (except for puzzle.4 which I think isn't; but I didn't make that one)
06:57:42 <zzo38> (Actually, I think puzzle.2 is also not dressed; puzzle.1 is clearly dressed though.)
06:59:45 <coppro> I want to develop the first ever muckbell
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07:07:21 <coppro> a muckbell is a slyming rhang
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07:09:37 <zzo38> kmc: Well, maybe I do have another definition: If playing by mail, they can be written all at once and without receiving a response.
07:09:51 <zzo38> (This isn't really mathematically precise either, though.)
07:10:43 <zzo38> Actually I guess this can be called a "move"; a "key move" would just be the first one.
07:10:55 <zzo38> (As it is in chess.)
07:16:25 <zzo38> However, in this game, the number of moves might be different from the number of turns.
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13:49:20 <JesseH> I started working on an esoteric programming language yesterday. https://github.com/jessehorne/derplang
13:49:36 <AnotherTest> @ask ThatOtherPerson I was reading some of the emulator code, and I wondered why the dcpu isn't inheriting from device itself?
14:03:41 <JesseH> My language is interpreted with an interpreter I wrote in Lua btw.
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14:06:20 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> I do mean "all hom-sets are abelian groups" but I also mean the distributive law. <-- i think the distributive law is the same as bilinearity
14:07:44 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:08:11 <Taneb> This "hi" is ominous
14:08:50 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 It's called bilinearity because it generalizes from homomorphisms between abelian groups to linear transformations between modules over rings
14:08:57 <AnotherTest> Today, I made a really pointless baseclass
14:10:09 <Taneb> Today, I was reading about type algebra again
14:10:30 <Taneb> And I came upon a sudden ponderance:
14:11:09 <Taneb> I will not share it because the answer is "Shut up, Taneb, you don't really understand this"
14:13:15 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> @google "ceasar gets money where he looses hearts" <-- you could try spelling caesar correctly, although it might not help.
14:13:52 <oerjan> i also failed to answer a quiz correctly the other day because the asker grossly mispronounced caesarion.
14:14:46 <oerjan> yes. the quiz asked who his parents were.
14:14:59 <Taneb> Cleopatra's son, supposedly by Gaius Julius Caesar
14:15:17 <elliott> Taneb: if you don't share the ponderance I will have to call the police
14:15:40 <Taneb> elliott: is there any type that corresponds to something like the golden ratio?
14:15:58 <oerjan> elliott: what if the ponderance _was_ 'I will not share it because the answer is "Shut up, Taneb, you don't really understand this"' ?
14:15:59 <AnotherTest> elliott needs his daily moment of "shut up you don't know anything"
14:16:00 <elliott> wasn't there a sigfpe post about that...
14:17:25 <AnotherTest> SO question: moving wordpress from local to local
14:18:08 <AnotherTest> What's a good book about type algebra for noobs btw?
14:18:14 <oerjan> you'd want a type satisfying the polynomial for the golden ratio, right?
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14:18:46 * elliott trying to rederive a blog post from scratch in lieu of finding it
14:18:56 <elliott> I don't know how to go from that to solving it as a type.
14:19:36 <Taneb> If you can think of a type such data T a = N | W a a (T a) corresponds to its one-hole context, that type corresponds to inverse hyperbolic tan
14:19:43 <Taneb> http://chris-taylor.github.io/blog/2013/02/10/the-algebra-of-algebraic-data-types/
14:19:56 <elliott> well... if we say that φ is a function a -> b, as seems likely for such a weird type, then we need Maybe (a -> b) = (a -> b, a -> b)
14:20:16 * elliott consults god Wolfram to cover up for his incompetence.
14:20:47 <elliott> well, that wasn't helpful. it just told me b^a + 1 = b^(2a). I'm not /that/ incompetent
14:21:04 <elliott> if Maybe (a -> b) = (a, a) -> b
14:21:16 <elliott> maybe flipping it works better.
14:21:20 <elliott> (a, a) -> b = Maybe (a -> b)
14:22:14 <elliott> hm, φ = 1 + φ + φ^2 + φ^3 + ...?
14:22:28 <elliott> it sounds distinctly untrue.
14:23:25 <elliott> wait, is it actually true?
14:23:28 <elliott> i've got myself completely confused.
14:23:44 <oerjan> not the same polynomial
14:24:04 <elliott> was my interpretation of [] wrong... it looks like the standard expansion for the free monoid?
14:24:27 <oerjan> elliott: i find it plausible...
14:24:31 <Taneb> No, my arithmetic was off
14:24:41 <elliott> well I mean if φ = 1 + φ + n
14:24:54 <elliott> and φ^2 + φ^3 + ... does not seem to have any reason to be < 0.
14:25:04 <elliott> i am sleep deprived but at least that much makes sense to me
14:25:29 <elliott> well you sort of have to eliminate all the divisions and subtractions if you want to work out a type :P
14:25:58 <Taneb> By "more true" I distinctly did not mean "closer to the answer"
14:26:40 <Taneb> I have a home to go to
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14:28:11 <oerjan> i don't know much about handling negation or division in types other than the 1/(1-t) kind of trick
14:29:19 <elliott> wait, there's a relevant trick i'm missing? :P
14:29:40 <oerjan> i just mean 1/(1-t) = 1+t+t^2+...
14:30:13 <elliott> that's not equal to the golden ratio for any convenient t though :(
14:30:19 <oerjan> i think i've also seen someone claim t^n/n represents cyclic lists of length n
14:31:23 <elliott> that gives some sort of clue? sort of?
14:31:34 <elliott> if there's any nice trick for 1/(1+t)...
14:31:57 <oerjan> 1/(1+t) = 1-t+t^2-t^3+...
14:32:49 <elliott> φ = 1 + 1 - (φ-1) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:32:49 <nooodl> ugh guys how is monad pronounced
14:32:57 <elliott> φ = (φ-1) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:33:01 <nooodl> even worse dilemma: how do i pronounce it in dutch
14:33:08 <elliott> φ = ((1 + 1/φ)-1) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:33:16 <elliott> φ = (1/φ) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:33:21 <elliott> this does not seem to be helping.
14:33:37 <oerjan> nooodl: monachchxt*ARGH MY THROAT*
14:34:05 <nooodl> i know a "monoid" is a "monoïde" so people seem to put some effort into translating technical terms
14:34:29 <nooodl> but there's no obvious non-stupid way to pronounce "monad", which is also used in dutch
14:35:00 <oerjan> dutch is so funny, i listened to the king's inauguration speech the other day
14:35:29 <nooodl> it's all "schchcxhxsh rshcrhxschhrx"
14:35:58 <oerjan> only arabic can beat it in sheer throat messing up
14:36:33 <nooodl> oh man that's right, AnotherTest lives about a decibelgium away from me
14:36:33 <AnotherTest> that's probably just dutch dutch, not Flemish dutch then
14:37:02 <nooodl> but yeah flemish dutch is less throat-y. it's more like german
14:37:16 <oerjan> elliott: someone's probably analyzed what expressions can work as types
14:37:58 <elliott> oerjan: yes. but if I could find things, I could also just dig up the blog post.
14:38:05 <elliott> so I'm reduced to thought instead.
14:39:55 <nooodl> elliott: are you sure it's a sigfpe blog post
14:40:15 <elliott> no i've realised it wasn't
14:40:20 <elliott> uh i think it had a black background, haskell code, recent
14:40:32 <elliott> the default new wordpress theme thing
14:41:15 <nooodl> site:wordpress.com hth
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14:44:06 <elliott> oerjan: nooodl: http://ctenophoric.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/algebraic-data-part-1-golden-tree/
14:45:59 <elliott> In many everyday categories (sets, spaces, modules, ...) objects can be both added and multiplied. The arithmetic of such objects is a challenge because there is usually no subtraction. We prove a family of cases of the following principle: if an arithmetic statement about the objects can be proved by pretending that they are complex numbers, then there also exists an honest proof.
14:46:09 <nooodl> i was confused about the [x] = 1 + x + x² + x³ + ... thing at first... but now it makes sense
14:46:27 <AnotherTest> so there are exponential types. Are there hyper types?
14:47:04 <elliott> nooodl: list is either empty or one element or two elements or etc.
14:47:20 <nooodl> AnotherTest: A^^n = A -> A -> ... -> A
14:47:51 <AnotherTest> nooodl: So that would be eg. a function returning a function?
14:48:07 <elliott> I assign oerjan the task of divining the deep connection between Tree [Bool] and the golden ratio
14:48:24 <nooodl> yeah; n is a natural number here though so it's not really a "hyper type" at all
14:48:27 <oerjan> i thought that was what the blog post did
14:48:39 <boily> oerjan: could you please stop shouting your okays? it disturbs this channel's feng shui. hth.
14:48:51 <elliott> nooodl: well it doesn't count unless you have types on both sides.
14:49:11 <elliott> oerjan: well it showed the correspondence. i can't say it says much on _why_ on earth that's the type :P
14:49:14 <nooodl> indeed... i have no idea what A^^B would be though
14:49:20 <oerjan> boily: no, the precise spacing and capitalization is part of the meaning hth
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14:49:37 <nooodl> clearly A^^Bool = A -> A, somehow
14:49:41 <elliott> nooodl: well, you know that A^^Bool is A -> A
14:50:00 <elliott> data Foo = A | B | C; A^^Foo = A -> A -> A
14:51:14 <elliott> so for fixed D and C we know what the result should look like.
14:51:21 <nooodl> wait what is sqrt(2) as a type
14:52:04 <AnotherTest> What's so special about sqrt(2) as a type?
14:52:48 <nooodl> it doesn't exist in any way i can think of but i remember seeing that "negative and fractional types" paper and not understanding it at all
14:53:59 <AnotherTest> Also is A^(-1) the inverse type of A? Or what's used for that?
14:55:07 <oerjan> but does that 1+2+3+... = -1/12 equation hold in types?
14:55:59 <nooodl> and iirc it's kinda like that... here's a thing i don't understand http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf
14:56:41 <elliott> i remember edwardk mocking the negative and fractional types paper
14:57:19 <Taneb> ...have I started something here
14:57:42 <AnotherTest> Taneb: you made me read something about type algebra so thanks
14:57:55 <nooodl> > import Control.Category
14:57:56 <nooodl> > import Prelude hiding ((.),id)
14:57:58 <AnotherTest> I'm probably annoying elliott etc atm though
14:57:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `import'
14:58:12 <elliott> the only thing that annoys me is... soap
14:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> well, you can have quotients but they're not what you want
14:58:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: catch up pls
14:58:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In many everyday categories (sets, spaces, modules, ...) objects can be both added and multiplied. The arithmetic of such objects is a challenge because there is usually no subtraction. We prove a family of cases of the following principle: if an arithmetic statement about the objects can be proved by pretending that they are complex numbers, then there also exists an honest proof.
14:58:40 <elliott> cf also http://ctenophoric.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/algebraic-data-part-1-golden-tree/
14:58:54 <AnotherTest> Well I'm pretty sure inverse types can exist
14:59:22 <AnotherTest> so a division of two types A / B = A * B^(-1) I guess?
15:00:29 <elliott> i feel your presentation of A^(-1) insufficiently justified
15:00:52 <elliott> especially since it must be a function from a type (-1) to A
15:01:29 <AnotherTest> elliott: well consider it a separate notation? ^ is probably an ill chosen symbol
15:01:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> left adjoint to forgetful variables hth <-- i am hoping this is somehow actually true.
15:02:08 <elliott> nooodl: (A, [Bool] -> A) = Void
15:02:35 <elliott> yes the joke is its nonsense
15:03:18 <AnotherTest> Where can I read more about this type algebra (besides on Taneb's link which was pretty basic)?
15:03:51 <Taneb> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~byorgey/pub/species-pearl.pdf I think
15:04:07 <nooodl> http://chris-taylor.github.io/blog/2013/02/11/the-algebra-of-algebraic-data-types-part-ii/ hth
15:07:58 <nooodl> To interpret this for types, remember that the derivative operator d/da makes holes in a data structure that contains data of type a. This equation is saying that if a type doesn’t have any data of type a, then its one-hole context is Void, i.e. you can’t create any instances of it.
15:08:12 <nooodl> type algebra is so good
15:08:27 <nooodl> i have the hugest grin on my face
15:08:58 <nooodl> i don't think there's a sensible definition of type integrals
15:09:07 <nooodl> the whole constant of integration thing sounds messy
15:11:34 <AnotherTest> well assuming that this type division is a real thing, you could define rounding down types
15:11:50 <AnotherTest> then you could define modulo (assuming you also have negative types)
15:12:04 <AnotherTest> then you could implement RSA with types or something I guess
15:12:37 <AnotherTest> so someone could not only encrypt a message, but also the type of the message!
15:13:25 <AnotherTest> serious question: What's the difference between Nil and Nothing? The post seems to use both.
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16:20:18 <Vorpal> there are quite a few debian forks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DebianFamilyTree1210.svg
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16:28:03 <fizzie> Not an insignificant fraction are Ubuntu-derived.
16:28:19 <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
16:29:58 <fizzie> It is good that the line for Ubuntu Satanic Edition is RED
16:30:45 <fizzie> I'm sure "Leeenux" has a large following.
16:30:49 <NihilistDandy> I've used Damn Vulnerable a couple of times, but there are just so damn many
16:31:08 <fizzie> (Apparently it's a netbook-oriented thing.)
16:31:52 <Jafet> @quote in.the.type.system
16:31:52 <lambdabot> dons says: ghc 12.5 can implement the device drivers in the type system!
16:31:59 <Jafet> @quote in.the.type.system
16:32:00 <lambdabot> olsner says: < kmc> i think 250 milliolegs is enough to kill an elephant < olsner> kmc: ... to kill an elephant - in the type system!
16:32:16 <fizzie> Hrm, a Google search for "Descent|OS" (with quotes) seems to still be looking for the words "Descent" or "OS", not the combination.
16:32:32 <Jafet> @google +"descent.os"
16:32:33 <lambdabot> Title: DescentOS: Simple by Design
16:32:50 <fizzie> I was hoping it'd have something to do with Descent-the-game, but it doesn't seem to.
16:34:08 <Jafet> Descent was nausea-inducing, so that's not implausible
16:34:41 <fizzie> Only losers turned on the option that auto-rotates the ship so that "up" stays up.
16:35:02 <Jafet> I think it was the corridors
16:35:36 <fizzie> Can you put a bitmap object thing in a KML file or something? Like, assuming I have a bitmap map of something, and I'd like to plonk it on top of a map (assuming some reasonable projection) so that I can look at it on an Android device and see where I am?
16:36:19 <fizzie> Maybe that's an <GroundOverlay>.
16:36:42 <Jafet> Do it right, use a spheroidal bitmap
16:37:25 <fizzie> I don't know if the bitmap is even a real map, in any sort of scale, instead of just an illustration.
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16:40:58 <Taneb> I feel a bizarre need to create a website
16:43:30 <Taneb> Hey, werecatt's at it again
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16:57:58 <fizzie> I just added an "image overlay" in Google Earth, but now I can't figure out how to edit its size/position.
16:58:44 <fizzie> Oh, it's editable when its "Properties" window is open.
17:09:36 <fizzie> Huh. The exported kmz (and kml) files work when I write the URL to the web-browser Google Maps, but not when I write it to the search field of the Android Google Maps, even though I've used that earlier to look at a kml file in the webs.
17:13:14 <JesseH> Jafet, descentos looked interesting until I saw the reddit link >_>
17:17:57 <fizzie> Why doesn't anything ever work out right? I managed to get the image overlay open in Android Google Earth (by making a dummy page with a link to it, then going there with Chrome and telling it to open it with Earth), but it only shows about one half (left half) of the image.
17:18:23 <zzo38> A feature would like to see in a GameBoy emulator is the feature to interact with the IR port driver on your computer.
17:18:23 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:18:27 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 12m 7s ago: <zzo38> I do mean "all hom-sets are abelian groups" but I also mean the distributive law. <-- i think the distributive law is the same as bilinearity
17:18:28 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 9m 37s ago: It's called bilinearity because it generalizes from homomorphisms between abelian groups to linear transformations between modules over rings
17:20:04 <fizzie> In fact, the leftmost 1333 pixels is what it displays. IDGI.
17:20:10 <kmc> hi shachaf
17:21:34 <kmc> "Descent|OS incorporates ease of use with the power that advanced users hunger, with emphasis on functionality and lightness combined with good looks."
17:21:50 <kmc> i like that people can just say this without admitting that there are tradeoffs between these things
17:22:09 <kmc> I guess "marketing is bullshit" is not exactly a cutting edge observation
17:22:32 <elliott> i like how this site does not tell me anything helpful as a linux user
17:22:35 <zzo38> Well, yes they are tradeoffs.
17:22:51 <kmc> but it's funny that one-person Linux distro projects have bullshit marketing just like huge corporate products
17:22:52 <elliott> i had to click on to their reddit to find it's a debianoid
17:22:52 <zzo38> A simple and fast operating system is FreeDOS.
17:23:17 <elliott> kmc: i think it kind of shows how ingrained this kind of crap is to society
17:23:32 <elliott> that people think it improves everything they do to imitate it
17:24:02 <Taneb> "Taneb's linux distribution"
17:24:15 <Taneb> "It's basically debian, but stripped down, and with chromium installed by default"
17:24:16 <Bike> turns out to be slackware
17:24:17 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:24:31 <fizzie> "Tabuntu" or "Tanebuntu".
17:24:43 <elliott> kmc: have PC manufacturers stolen the whole retina thing yet, you are my update service for this fact
17:24:45 <kmc> remember, software with the features I want is "pragmatic", software with the features you want is "bloated"
17:24:55 <Taneb> fizzie: Tabuntu sounds like the mutant offspring of two colas
17:24:56 <kmc> elliott: just the Chromebook Pixel
17:25:04 <JesseH> My distro is exactly ubuntu 10.04, but without the firefox package.
17:25:09 <kmc> you can run regular Linux on it (or on a Macbook Retina for that matter)
17:25:21 <elliott> kmc: that has an arm in it right
17:25:29 <elliott> (a literal human arm to go with the retina)
17:25:39 <kmc> i expect so
17:25:47 <kmc> but no it's an x86 chip
17:26:18 <elliott> too bad the screen is tiny :/
17:26:27 <kmc> but the defs are so high
17:26:30 <elliott> i don't even know if i want a laptop
17:26:34 <elliott> i don't even know what i want
17:26:56 <elliott> all i want is a computer i can use to do the things i like using computers for without getting incredibly frustrated by it all freezing multiple times a day
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17:27:14 <elliott> and technical knowledge does not really help with this goal afaict
17:27:31 <kmc> agree/disagree: "simple" and "minimal" are not design goals, they just mean you've done your job evaluating the actual design goals
17:27:48 <Bike> i'm not sure those words actually mean anything in a design context
17:28:06 <Bike> elliott: have you considered taking up something easier like gradening or bomb defusal.
17:28:50 <tromp> reminds me of a monthy python sketch
17:29:04 <tromp> with the banker wanting to become a lion tamer
17:29:31 <kmc> Bike: yet they seem to be a huge deal in free software communities
17:29:41 <kmc> so if they mean nothing then that's... well, not surprising, but kinda funny
17:30:02 <elliott> Bike: well the problem is i'm kind of deep into this functional programming thing by now!
17:30:06 <elliott> it's wormed its way into my aesthetics
17:30:28 <elliott> my only out appears to be a purer form of mathematics, and (a) I'm not good enough for it, and (b) you still need to use computers a lot
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17:31:08 <kmc> anyway I think what I said is not 100% true because there can be varying levels of pushback against new feature requests
17:31:24 <Bike> kmc: mostly i'm thinking of http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/tagged/wallet and all the Minimal Wallets in general
17:31:34 <Bike> there's more than just those two, their tagging just sucks apparently
17:31:37 <kmc> what I said kind of presupposes a one-way (I think the kids call this "waterfall") methodology where the requirements are set in stone
17:31:45 <Bike> elliott: know who else was concerned with purity? hitler
17:31:52 <kmc> hahaha woow
17:32:00 <kmc> A modern minimalist wallet system that blocks RFID signals yet allows users to express their individuality.
17:32:10 <kmc> BUT DOES IT CELEBRATE CRAFTSMANSHIP?!?!?
17:32:20 <elliott> Bike: no i already argued with someone who has unironically compared things similar to what i was arguing about to hitler recently today!
17:32:53 <Bike> tough it up!!!
17:33:17 <elliott> maybe I should just figure out how to make a lot of money and give up on caring about things and buy a macbook, except every time i have said "i can't care about computers any more" and bought a mac it's turned out that programming on them is a net more hellish experience than dealing with other things
17:33:18 <kmc> "We're making the world's fist anime time management/tycoon game."
17:33:22 <elliott> kmc: can I just dictate programs to you
17:33:29 <elliott> that seems like the easiest solution
17:33:41 <Bike> here in the Real World you'll get baselessly compared to hitler and there's nothing you can do about it without violating my free speech
17:34:05 <Bike> yeah ok this is pointless.
17:35:31 <Bike> http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/40901452707 another minimalist wallet
17:36:05 <Bike> http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/40770610878/ just keep coming
17:36:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> all i want is a computer i can use to do the things i like using computers for without getting incredibly frustrated by it all freezing multiple times a day
17:36:34 <Vorpal> It has been years since I had problems with freezes
17:36:50 <elliott> it freezes because i use up all my ram and it starts swapping
17:36:52 <elliott> and the disk is relaly slow
17:37:03 <Vorpal> I think I had one kernel panic in the last year, that was a failing swap HDD
17:37:13 <Bike> elliott: do you even have money
17:37:16 <Vorpal> no, that was two years ago
17:37:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest getting a LOT of ram then
17:37:39 <Vorpal> elliott, 16 GB, haven't had any issues, I do use xfce though, so not very memory hungry
17:37:40 <elliott> yes i have figured out that ram in the double digits would be best for my continued sanity
17:37:45 <Vorpal> and windows is more IO-bound
17:37:50 <Vorpal> so the disk is the slow bit there
17:37:51 <elliott> Bike: i mean i don't really buy things...
17:37:57 <Vorpal> at least for like 10 minutes after boot
17:38:08 <elliott> i don't really buy things i don't love
17:38:10 <kmc> "Long cat 3D. A game built for the meme community… inspired by teh internetz."
17:38:10 <boily> elliott: what do you do that uses up all your ram? fire multiple eclipse instances at the same time?
17:38:14 <kmc> they don't even have any comment on that one
17:38:43 <elliott> boily: chromium appears to be the main culprit
17:38:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you might want to go for 32 GB, I actually managed to swap a couple of weeks ago! I had 150 tabs in chromium open and a minecraft instance that used 4GB. Also was compiling a kernel in the background
17:39:03 <Vorpal> (cross compiling a kernel)
17:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you do stupid stuff like that, 16 GB is fine :P
17:39:37 -!- Bike_ has joined.
17:39:40 <Bike_> speaking of stupid computer problems
17:40:42 <kmc> The World’s First Dubstep MMO
17:41:42 <kmc> “Please give $7500 to Bulk and Skull to cover damages from pies thrown at the wall during the last Power Rangers convention”
17:42:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:42:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:43:39 <Bike> those are some hella pies
17:46:49 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:48:28 <kmc> "Ever since the 1st smartphone came to the market we all have been waiting for Uppercup™. The first cupholder for the iPhone."
17:49:14 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
17:53:47 <kmc> Time Lord Style - A Doctor Who 'Gangnam Style' Parody
17:54:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:54:22 <kmc> they raised $345 of a $700 goal, I don't know which of those numbers is sadder
17:57:56 -!- augur has joined.
17:59:57 <kmc> oh good there's a kickstarter solely for porn now http://offbeatr.com/ (nsfw obviously)
18:02:54 <JesseH> Yep, a friend of mine is working on this. http://offbeatr.com/project/seduction-quest-25942461211
18:03:21 <Taneb> JesseH: I don't think I know you. Are you new?
18:04:54 <JesseH> I was told by http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal that this was the place to go.
18:05:17 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:06:01 <Taneb> Yeah, this is the place to be
18:06:42 <JesseH> I recently started working on a esoteric programming language, and thought I'de hang out here. :P
18:06:51 <fizzie> elliott: "ram in the double digits" like up to a dozen bytes!
18:07:11 <kmc> JesseH: cool, what's it like?
18:07:33 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:07:43 <JesseH> This is your basic hello world program.
18:07:43 <JesseH> START:ou:hello world:DONE:
18:07:53 <JesseH> The interpreter is written in Lua.
18:08:07 <JesseH> It does some basic things, working on getting it turing complete. ^_^
18:08:22 <Taneb> Turing completeness is not as important as it may seem
18:08:36 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:08:52 <kmc> what does it do differently from other languages?
18:08:59 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/derplang
18:09:11 <JesseH> A script MUST be on one line
18:09:25 <JesseH> I am still working on the unique part.
18:09:32 <JesseH> It handles things differently I can tell you that.
18:09:48 <Taneb> "17: amazingly another prime number"
18:10:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:10:03 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/derplang/blob/master/examples/test.derp
18:10:19 <JesseH> watch out python...derplang is coming!
18:11:40 <Taneb> That's a pretty cool esolang
18:11:59 <JesseH> Pretty easy to implement too.
18:12:17 <JesseH> A little bit harder to write...
18:12:18 <tromp> JesseH: how do you output the string ":DONE:" ?
18:12:46 <JesseH> DONE: means end of code
18:13:16 <tromp> so does exit(0) in C, but it can still print it:)
18:13:52 <tromp> you can just print it in two parts, right?
18:13:58 <JesseH> I don't use "'s to show the interpreter what is a string and what isnt
18:14:12 <JesseH> actually what you could do is do this
18:14:40 <JesseH> With one added space at the end...it makes a difference. ^_^
18:15:20 <tromp> must all programs start witrh START: ?
18:15:46 <tromp> can you have more STARTs?
18:15:52 <JesseH> Now, I could take it out, and make it not matter very easily....but why would I do that?
18:16:23 <JesseH> I forgot how I implemented it! Such bad memory
18:16:35 <JesseH> Since yesterday I've rewritten around 10 times :P
18:16:57 <JesseH> It checks the 1st, and last statement
18:17:03 <JesseH> the 1st statement MUST be start
18:17:08 <JesseH> and the last MUST be DONE
18:17:21 <JesseH> If not, it spits a DERP error to you
18:17:38 <tromp> we wouldnt want that
18:18:03 <JesseH> So yeah, if you wanted to get some input, and print it out 5 times heres what the script would look like
18:18:22 <JesseH> START:ou:What is your name?:ip:x:fo:1:5:ou:x:DONE:
18:18:33 <JesseH> I think...let me run that in my interpreter to check.
18:19:10 <JesseH> Yep that syntax is correct
18:20:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:22:18 <oerjan> `addquote <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
18:22:22 <HackEgo> 1034) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
18:28:36 <oerjan> <fizzie> "Tabuntu" or "Tanebuntu". <-- i think this requires Taneb to be a swahili noun prefix hth
18:29:03 -!- ocojocaru has joined.
18:30:35 <oerjan> <kmc> remember, software with the features I want is "pragmatic", software with the features you want is "bloated" <-- what about software with the features he/she wants?
18:31:01 <olsner> depends on whether he/she is kmc or not?
18:31:46 <olsner> but I guess you were making a joke or something
18:32:07 <oerjan> olsner: clearly kmc is "I" in this case hth
18:32:39 <oerjan> i was just wondering about the full person inflection of this adjective hth
18:32:40 <Taneb> oerjan: bug-ridden
18:32:41 <olsner> but when I say I I usually mean me
18:33:07 <oerjan> olsner: but i wasn't quoting you
18:33:56 <olsner> ah, ok, I probably can't help you then
18:34:41 <Taneb> Yeah, software with the features he wants is bug-ridden
18:35:20 <oerjan> <elliott> (a literal human arm to go with the retina) <-- it suddenly occurs to me that to be literally literal you have to be made of letters
18:37:34 <mnoqy> literally made of letters???
18:38:04 <oerjan> <Bike> elliott: have you considered taking up something easier like gradening or bomb defusal. <-- plz explain what "gradening" is thx
18:38:47 <olsner> oerjan: probably a typo for gardening, hth
18:39:08 <oerjan> olsner: i considered that possibility and found it implausibly boring hth
18:39:11 <Jafet> "literal" is literally a literal
18:39:19 <Taneb> It's the process of turning something into a grade
18:41:29 <boily> Jafet: only if it's properly quoted. "\"literal\"" is literally a literal.
18:42:29 <Jafet> is literally preceded by its quotation
18:42:41 <oerjan> <elliott> maybe I should just figure out how to make a lot of money and give up on caring about things and buy a macbook, except every time i have said "i can't care about computers any more" and bought a mac it's turned out that programming on them is a net more hellish experience than dealing with other things
18:43:20 <oerjan> <-- i suspect the computers made for people that don't want to care about computers are eerily unconcerned with making programming easy hth
18:43:40 <boily> but then, how do they program software for them in the first place?
18:43:49 <olsner> by cross-compiling from linux of course
18:45:48 <oerjan> <Bike> here in the Real World you'll get baselessly compared to hitler and there's nothing you can do about it without violating my free speech <-- i'm sure you can use other methods, although hitler used all of them hth
18:46:44 <boily> oerjan is very hambiguital today.
18:47:43 <HackEgo> hth here there be hambiguity
18:48:11 <oerjan> DID ANYONE ORDER A BIG HAM?
18:48:37 <Taneb> JesseH: btw did you get asked the questions
18:48:47 <Taneb> The questions are important
18:49:01 <Taneb> Firstly! Do you live in Hexham?
18:49:17 <JesseH> Sounds like a fun place to live
18:49:41 <Taneb> How about Finland?
18:50:11 <oerjan> i am sure there was a third question last time i saw it came up
18:50:12 <boily> uhm, what about his/her/its/hir geographical coordinates?
18:50:44 <oerjan> ah yes, for the #esoteric center of mass project
18:51:02 <oerjan> that also requires eir weight hth
18:51:13 <JesseH> How do I get my coords?
18:51:33 <oerjan> JesseH: i'm sure google maps can give them somehow
18:51:53 <JesseH> I live in Murica if that matters.
18:52:00 <boily> oerjan: it does, but I'm trying to subtly introduce the question for later.
18:52:24 <Taneb> boily: what's the average so far?
18:52:29 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
18:52:39 <Taneb> I'm guessing north-east atlantic
18:53:15 <JesseH> <_> #esoteric lurkers be creapin
18:53:17 <boily> Taneb: haven't compiled all the results yet (not enough datapoints), but my gut guesstimateeling is somewhere in northern atlantic.
18:53:17 <Taneb> Didn't kallisti live in Georgia
18:53:27 <boily> JesseH: thanks! and subtly your body weigh?
18:53:35 <oerjan> well someone here was from georgia
18:53:44 <JesseH> No one here is from georgia XD
18:54:02 <Taneb> JesseH: do you know anyone called Adam Curtis
18:54:04 <boily> JesseH: ah, good, someone else that works with good ol' regular orthodox pounds.
18:54:18 <oerjan> JesseH: you _could_ be right since kallisti isn't present
18:54:22 <JesseH> Taneb, sounds familiar O.o
18:54:44 <oerjan> well, unless he changed nick again without me noting
18:54:51 <Taneb> How about (and now I list all the people I know who live in Georgia):
18:55:42 <JesseH> Atlanta is the city where "it's happeneing".
18:55:48 <JesseH> I don't live there either. :c
18:56:25 <Taneb> The people I know in Georgia are either in the Savannah area (I think? is that an area?) or Commerce/Athens
18:56:38 <JesseH> The good neighborhoods >_>
18:57:10 <oerjan> `frink 135 pounds -> kg
18:57:11 <Taneb> Don't know anyone in Tbilisi, though
18:57:19 <HackEgo> 1224699399/20000000 (exactly 61.23496995)
18:57:30 <Taneb> `frink 9 stone -> lb
18:58:02 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 130 (dimensionless) \ Right side is: 1 kg (mass) \ Suggestion: multiply left side by mass \ \ For help, type: units[mass] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
18:58:07 <Taneb> `frink 130 lb -> kg
18:58:16 <HackEgo> 589670081/10000000 (exactly 58.9670081)
18:58:50 <JesseH> Cool esolang talk goes on here?
18:58:55 <JesseH> I haven't heard any ;D
18:59:00 <Taneb> Hahahahahahahahaha
18:59:13 <mnoqy> fsvo cool, esolang, talk
18:59:22 <JesseH> Taneb, good idea for a language!
18:59:27 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 844) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
18:59:49 <Taneb> JesseH, yeah, look at the topic bar
18:59:57 -!- augur has joined.
19:00:19 <oerjan> for slight on topicness, i've been vaguely wondering if MemFractal is turing complete
19:00:48 <boily> I don't see why not. everything today and its toaster is TC.
19:01:15 <JesseH> Strange....my toaster is only toaster complete >_>
19:01:26 <Taneb> My toaster is linear-bounded
19:04:19 <oerjan> boily: i am pretty sure a variant of MemFractal that had a bit more exits/entrances to the program would be TC, but i am not sure if 4 are enough to work with.
19:05:04 <kmc> my other toaster is a hypercomputer
19:05:46 <mnoqy> i only have one toaster and it's half broken and the other half is pretty broken too and it makes bad smells so i don't like it
19:06:50 <oerjan> <Taneb> Don't know anyone in Tbilisi, though <-- * oerjan suddenly gets that. and wonders if there's a tbilisi in georgia, usa.
19:07:28 <kmc> "Tbilisi" doesn't have a disambiguation page
19:08:11 -!- ocojocaru has quit.
19:08:46 <FireFly> I assume JesseH has been properly `welcome'd?
19:09:22 <FireFly> ...those are not meant to look like matching quotes
19:09:56 <FireFly> extra welcoming can't hurt, I suppose
19:10:08 <HackEgo> JesseH: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:10:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
19:10:44 <HackEgo> FiReFlY: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
19:13:33 <HackEgo> ! \ ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ gccrun \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ instalist \ interp \ it \ joustreport \ jo
19:14:07 <FireFly> Hey, I didn't know about `emoclew
19:14:25 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/[j-z]*: No such file or directory
19:14:25 <olsner> I always read that as -claw
19:15:41 <HackEgo> bin/joustreport \ bin/jousturl \ bin/js \ bin/json \ bin/karma \ bin/karma- \ bin/karma+ \ bin/learn \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/log \ bin/logurl \ bin/lowercase \ bin/ls \ bin/lua \ bin/luac \ bin/luarocks \ bin/luarocks-admin \ bin/macro \ bin/makelist \ bin/makequine \ bin/maketext \ bin/marco \ bin/mlist \ bin/mov \ bin/No \ bin/nooodl: \ bin
19:15:56 <nooodl> thank god for bin/nooodl:
19:16:41 <FireFly> Useful if you're after botcycles
19:16:54 <nooodl> it was exactly that FireFly
19:17:31 <HackEgo> \ LuaRocks 2.0.12, a module deployment system for Lua \ \ NAME \ luarocks - LuaRocks main command-line interface \ \ SYNOPSIS \ luarocks [--from=<server> | --only-from=<server>] [--to=<tree>] [VAR=VALUE]... <command> [<argument>] \ \ GENERAL OPTIONS \ These apply to all commands, as appropriate: \ \ --server=<server> Fetch rocks/r
19:18:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
19:18:31 <HackEgo> \ Error: Unknown command: a
19:22:58 <FireFly> If you're into "the other kind" of esoterica..
19:24:12 <JesseH> So um, no convos are going on so...
19:24:30 <JesseH> Anyone wanna discuss my language, help me decide what to implement next/in the future?
19:25:04 <JesseH> For those who missed... (github.com/jessehorne/derplang)
19:25:19 <JesseH> Fork and or star it pl0x :-)
19:26:01 <Taneb> JesseH: make a wiki article!
19:26:26 <JesseH> Some of the design will change though so I'm afraid to go into much detail.
19:27:04 <boily> wiki articles are very important. they fend off spam and slightly embetter the SNR.
19:28:18 <shachaf> My sleep is messed up even on this coast. :-(
19:28:28 <JesseH> Taneb, where is this wiki so I can make an article
19:28:41 <Taneb> ...you got here from the community portal on the wiki
19:28:55 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
19:30:38 <JesseH> What am I supposed to put here? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:JesseH
19:31:14 <Taneb> My dad's entering a badminton tournament... in Helsinki
19:31:39 <oerjan> Taneb: this may upset the balance of the universe
19:31:44 <JesseH> I don't know where to put my article ;_;
19:31:59 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
19:32:35 <Taneb> oerjan: I'm not allowed to go with him because it's to do with airlines
19:33:05 <JesseH> My language is called "derplang"
19:33:08 <oerjan> Taneb: i mean hexhammers and helsinkists meeting in general.
19:33:23 <Taneb> oerjan: luckily, my dad is an Aussie
19:33:44 <oerjan> JesseH: you need to put a {{lowercase}} template on top of the article.
19:33:51 <olsner> what if helsinki and hexham are the same city but they just don't realize it?
19:34:04 <boily> btw, that reminds me that I haven't seen nortti in a while.
19:34:15 <Taneb> olsner: that would change the geography of Europe quite significantly
19:34:28 <nortti> boily: that is because I'm invisible
19:34:46 <olsner> Taneb: not necessarily, there may be wormholes or something like that involved
19:34:55 <boily> nortti: I'll continue not seeing you, then.
19:35:08 <olsner> or maybe hexhinki just exists in two places
19:35:12 <Taneb> boily: nortti: I hope you two can remain friends
19:35:24 <boily> europe still has geography? I thought your mines became depleted some decades ago.
19:35:41 <Taneb> boily: they were closed for political reasons in the 80's
19:35:43 <boily> Taneb: we can. he's invisible, I do not exist. there are many common points in that.
19:36:45 <nortti> how can a person talk on irc is they do not exist?
19:37:07 <Taneb> nortti: at least three people on this channel manage it
19:37:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: nortti: Darn you got me).
19:38:50 <nooodl> JesseH: why's it called derplang?
19:39:11 <nortti> is it derp-lang or der-plang?
19:39:42 <JesseH> Inspired by the derpitines of ancient rome
19:41:05 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
19:41:10 <mnoqy> what's unique about this derplang of yours?
19:41:10 <kmc> shachaf: which coast
19:41:16 <boily> ah, my status's preserved.
19:41:40 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
19:43:20 <nooodl> imo shachaf/mnoqy should write this entry
19:44:02 <mnoqy> `run echo nooooodl? ¯\(°_o)/¯ > wisdom/nooodl
19:44:09 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo nooooodl? ¯\(°_o)/¯ > wisdom/nooodl'
19:44:18 <mnoqy> `run echo 'nooooodl? ¯\(°_o)/¯' > wisdom/nooodl
19:44:49 <JesseH> Will the Contents thingy show up automatically?
19:45:31 <boily> JesseH: contents is either javascript and or php and or stuff going on in the background, usually.
19:46:24 <boily> (sometimes it tries to invoke some grotesque ritual and reach through your screen from some eldritch portal, but this is easily dispelled by hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del with you hands behind your back.)
19:47:04 <JesseH> Someone needs to create a language, that is used for creating other languages.
19:47:30 <JesseH> > create language called mixANDfix
19:47:33 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `create'Not in scope: `language'Not in scope: `called'
19:48:02 <JesseH> It will make up random syntax and what not.
19:48:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?`?: not found
19:48:38 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
19:48:47 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
19:49:00 <Taneb> `? for further details
19:49:11 <HackEgo> for further details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:49:12 <nortti> `? for further details.
19:49:16 <HackEgo> for further details.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:49:41 <Taneb> `run echo "who knows" > wisdom/for\ further\ details
19:50:47 <nortti> `run echo "See '? for further details for futher details." > wisdom/for\ further\ details.
19:50:53 <nortti> `run echo "See `? for further details for futher details." > wisdom/for\ further\ details.
19:51:00 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:51:17 <nortti> `run echo 'See `? for further details for futher details.' > wisdom/for\ further\ details.
19:53:49 <nortti> `run echo 'See `? for further details for futher details.' > wisdom/for\ further\ details\ for\ futher\ details.
19:54:26 <boily> I think I unleashed a Finn onto the channel...
19:54:30 <olsner> `? for further details
19:54:35 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
19:54:49 <olsner> `? for further details for further details
19:54:50 <HackEgo> for further details for further details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:54:56 <olsner> `? for further details for futher details
19:54:58 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:55:11 <olsner> `? for further details for futher details.
19:55:15 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
19:55:42 <HackEgo> SEE `! FOR FURTHER DETAILS FOR FUTHER DETAILS!
19:56:20 <olsner> `! FOR FURTHER DETAILS FOR FUTHER DETAILS!
19:56:23 <HackEgo> FOR FURTHER DETAILS FOR FUTHER DETAILS!! ¯\(°_O)/¯!
19:56:32 <boily> that is some aggressive command.
19:56:43 <HackEgo> BOILY IS CANADIAN OR SOMETHING! WE ARE NOT SURE ABOUT CANADA'S EXISTENCE!
19:56:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g -e 's/!\?$/!/'
19:59:46 <boily> nortti: does it substitutes chars with similar looking but 180° rotated unicode glyphs?
20:00:29 <nortti> anyone know a perl function for that?
20:01:17 <boily> nortti: there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_of_text as a starting point.
20:02:31 <FireFly> ...is there really a wikipedia article for that?
20:02:50 <shachaf> tomorrow i will go on the BUUUUUUUUUUS
20:09:22 <nortti> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' 'ɐq ɔ'
20:09:54 <boily> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' 'ɐqɔ'
20:10:07 <nortti> it seems I have managed to fuck up my curses yet again
20:10:19 <boily> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' 'def'
20:10:37 <boily> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' '\3000\3001\3002'
20:11:01 * boily kicks HackEgo in the utf8 bits
20:12:11 <boily> `run echo 'abcdefg' | tr 'abcde' 'ɐqɔ'
20:12:15 <olsner> nortti: that curse came out alright though
20:19:24 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
20:19:29 <JesseH> Tell me what you guys think ;D
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20:22:22 <Taneb> JesseH: are numbers and strings automatically coerced to eachother
20:23:36 <Taneb> And with the arithmetic?
20:23:48 <JesseH> Explain your questions ;D
20:23:50 <Taneb> Like, if I said ad:z:x:y but x and y were strings
20:24:02 <mnoqy> JesseH: you should add a section on what's unique about your language
20:24:23 <JesseH> Taneb, if they are strings it won't work and will spit a lua error at you probably
20:25:25 <JesseH> mnoqy, I will eventually. ^_^
20:25:43 <JesseH> I am considering taking out the START and DONE things...
20:25:49 <Taneb> JesseH: would you consider an implementation inaccurate if it detected that at compile-time and didn't compile because of ti
20:28:37 <nooodl> basically if the compiler noticed "hey, this instruction says ad:z:x:y, but x and y aren't both declared as strings!" before even compiling the code
20:30:11 <AnotherTest> JesseH: it's bad because you haven't categorized it
20:30:13 <nooodl> JesseH: does 'fo' only work with single-argument commands?
20:30:16 <shachaf> mnoqy: How do you talk about rank-n types etc. in Haskell "categorically"? hth
20:30:53 <nooodl> hth is starting to transcend meaning. its just letters
20:31:10 <shachaf> All three of its letters are just.
20:32:12 <Taneb> > map Just "hth" ^.. folded._Just
20:32:22 <JesseH> nooodl, then that would throw a lua error at you
20:32:26 <boily> what are rank-n types? I tried to follow a blog article about them, but I got lost, confused, dazzled, and other similar status effects.
20:32:54 <JesseH> nooodl, yes for now, its all single argument. Must be a number. Basically it says "execute" the command with one argument x number of times.
20:33:01 <Taneb> nooodl: that's just an alternate way to express catMaybes
20:33:05 <olsner> boily: they're just types with foralls in the wrong places
20:33:14 <JesseH> AnotherTest, I see a contents thing is that what you mean?
20:33:25 <boily> olsner: that I saw, and it gave me a queasy feeling.
20:33:28 <JesseH> Oh wait no I see AnotherTest
20:33:28 <nooodl> > [(1,2),(3,4),(5,6)] ^.. folded._1
20:33:41 <mnoqy> > let qqq id' = (id' 5, id' "hi") in qqq id
20:33:44 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Char])
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20:33:58 <boily> mnoqy: my bot sucks more.
20:33:59 <shachaf> mnoqy: ??????? that's haskell
20:34:11 <AnotherTest> So because it was apparently IMPOSSIBLE to categorize the article I have done the IMPOSSIBLE and made it POSSIBLE
20:34:18 <mnoqy> rank 2 tyles "impossible"
20:34:22 <shachaf> mnoqy: GHC isn't about to infer a rank-2 type for you.
20:34:29 <Taneb> > let qqq id' = (id' 5, id' "hi"); qqq :: (forall a. a -> a) -> b -> b in qqq id
20:34:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b -> b' with actual type `(t0, t1)'
20:34:38 <Taneb> > let qqq id' = (id' 5, id' "hi"); qqq :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (Int, String) in qqq id
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20:35:06 <JesseH> oh dang I am confused on categorizing!
20:35:07 <mnoqy> shachaf: well maybe ghc sucks!!!
20:35:49 <JesseH> AnotherTest, What do you mean you havent categorized?
20:36:08 <shachaf> mnoqy: well maybe it's punishment for inventing bell peppers hth
20:36:12 <JesseH> <AnotherTest> JesseH: it's bad because you haven't categorized it
20:36:42 <AnotherTest> I did it because (10:34:10 PM) AnotherTest: So because it was apparently IMPOSSIBLE to categorize the article I have done the IMPOSSIBLE and made it POSSIBLE
20:37:49 <nooodl> not in regular people haskell
20:38:26 <mnoqy> pointwise instances is a "caleskell thing"
20:38:44 <AnotherTest> nooodl: are you sure there are regular people doing haskell :p?
20:38:57 <mnoqy> AnotherTest: great joke????? :☺)
20:39:28 <boily> AnotherTest: the Haskell is regular, the people doing it are epi-regular.
20:39:30 <mnoqy> "haskell people sure are WEIRD and SPECIAL" - ??????do people really think this???????why
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20:40:14 <AnotherTest> mnoqy: because, suppose I said "hey, what do you think about Haskell?" to a random person I found on the street
20:40:27 <AnotherTest> They'd probably be like "What? Haskell? That's weird!"
20:40:52 <AnotherTest> So they surely thing it's very WEIRD and SPECIAL
20:41:37 <mnoqy> and what about that makes haskell people weird or special
20:42:13 <AnotherTest> weird or special is not an objective property
20:42:37 <AnotherTest> in their opinion, it is is weird because it is not typical
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21:12:47 <kmc> 'night Taneb
21:12:51 <kmc> Tanebnight
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23:25:51 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/martindavidsson/96160482/ paul graham keeping it classy
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23:26:50 <Bike> whether the people funding you respect you: important to self-esteem
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23:28:01 * Sgeo contemplates an alternate universe where the domain of a .js file is the domain that the file was served from
23:29:26 <JesseH> I think my language is becoming too useful.
23:33:10 <JesseH> Yep, might just stop development here. It does enough. ^_^
23:40:15 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
23:40:43 <JesseH> Actually no, once I get a better conditional statement, and some socket library access, ill say it's "done".
23:40:59 <JesseH> That way I can start working on my other ideas ^_^
23:43:13 <coppro> have you implemented this so-callend language
23:43:23 <JesseH> Scroll down look for the github
23:43:45 <JesseH> What would be the point designing a language without implementing?
23:46:41 <Sgeo> GitHub is 403'ing when I try to push to it :(
23:47:53 <Lumpio-> Maybe somebody found another mass assignment bug with their roobee on reuls
23:48:55 <Sgeo> I need two domains
23:49:07 <Sgeo> Was thinking dropbox and github, but maybe there's another place I can use?
23:49:47 <Sgeo> I could use Farmingdale I guess
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23:50:11 <boily> Sgeo: don't listen to heretics. stay true to github!
23:50:21 <Lumpio-> Why do you need two domains
23:50:44 <kmc> publish your code in a distributed proof of work block chain
23:50:49 <Sgeo> Want to show my boss that something he said would work won't work.
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23:51:08 <Lumpio-> You know you can map as many domains as you want onto your local server via /etc/hosts
23:51:37 <Sgeo> Too lazy to run a local server
23:52:11 <JesseH> I don't think youll die if you don't push for a few minutes
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23:58:44 <kmc> ruby on reals
23:59:08 <kmc> web framework for FRACTRAN?
00:00:25 <kmc> FRACTRAN is a cool esolang
00:09:29 <Sgeo> Godddammit dropbox stop being slow as pain
00:10:10 <Bike> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4523.html deuce explains the commutator
00:10:12 <Sgeo> asdfasdfasdf the select files box did open I just dudn't see it
00:12:44 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16240872/crossdomain/demo.htm
00:13:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:13:16 <Sgeo> Hmm. "Origin http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com is not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin."
00:13:32 <Sgeo> Does that imply that farmingdale is in fact sending Access-Control-Allow-Origin data?
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00:15:06 <Sgeo> Switched it to example.com
00:15:48 <tswett> Sgeo: is the domain of a .js file actually the domain of the file including it?
00:16:24 <Sgeo> It should be, I think.
00:16:34 <Sgeo> Well, the domain of the global window object
00:16:41 <Sgeo> Whatever it is
00:16:50 <tswett> So, you guys know how Finnish is a cipher of Japanese?
00:16:59 <tswett> German is likewise a cipher of French, right?
00:17:39 <Sgeo> Oh, switching to example.com is dumb
00:17:45 <Bike> common misconception, it's actually romansh it's a cipher of
00:19:18 <pikhq> It's all like, "fingo ga hen da", only encrypted!
00:21:08 <Sgeo> http://snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu/~goldsj6/crossdomain/demo.htm
00:21:14 <Sgeo> goddammit dropbox
00:21:28 <kmc> more like fartbox (a box you fart in)
00:21:41 <Sgeo> Apparently dropbox supports CORS?
00:21:52 <Sgeo> I need a packer sniffer
00:22:17 <Bike> Sgeo: sweet blank page
00:22:19 <Sgeo> Ok. I want two domains, neither of which support cors
00:22:26 <Sgeo> Bike, look at Javascript console.
00:22:43 <Sgeo> And at where resources are coming from
00:23:39 <Bike> the same combination on my luggage
00:25:03 <Sgeo> It's retrieving it cross-domain
00:26:13 <Bike> that counts as cross domain?
00:26:20 * pikhq feels like taking a risk; apt-get update
00:26:22 <Bike> the script and the info are both dropboxusercontent.
00:26:39 <Sgeo> That should count as cross-domain, although my boss disagrees.
00:27:04 <Bike> why should it?
00:27:18 <Sgeo> Because the page itself is on snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu
00:27:45 <Bike> i mean, what's the securty flaw
00:28:17 <Sgeo> Let's say gmail.com hosts some .js file. If I can trick the file into retrieving something interesting then calling my code, I now have something interesting.
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00:33:34 <tswett> Hey, so you guys know immibis?
00:34:35 <Sgeo> Can I disable CORS somehow?
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00:41:46 <Sgeo> Warning: This method must not be called from JavaScript.
00:42:32 <Sgeo> (init() on an XMLHttpRequest in Firefox)
00:43:37 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
00:48:36 <Sgeo> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/DOM/XMLHttpRequest
00:50:11 <Bike> type: Function?
00:51:27 <Sgeo> I want to test what happens without the interference of CORS
00:51:52 <Lumpio-> You're trying to break same-origin?
00:52:12 <Lumpio-> For .js files where the .js file itself comes from doesn't change the origin context
00:52:19 <Lumpio-> It's always set by the document.
00:52:26 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, I am aware of this. I want to show my boss
00:52:37 <Lumpio-> He thinks it doesn't work like that? ¬u¬
00:52:47 <Lumpio-> Just post a link to the specs or whatev
00:53:07 <Sgeo> Specs suck when it comes to "Does this work on the web"
00:54:39 <Sgeo> You know what the fun part is? It wouldn't really matter so much if cookies weren't sent with every request to a domain no matter who originated that request.
00:55:46 <kmc> shachaf: "For example, http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7634 ought to be a CVE" -- ezyang
00:55:51 <kmc> go pro troll and request one
00:56:38 <kmc> a number identifying a security vulnerability
00:57:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures
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01:08:54 <kmc> also GHC still has loads of RWX pages :(
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01:25:28 <JesseH> I just got something that is similar to "goto" implemented in my language. ^_^
01:25:49 <Bike> i hear goto is considered harmful
01:25:49 <JesseH> Now if I get the "if" thingie implemented you might be able to do something with this confusing pile of shit :D
01:26:17 <kmc> "considered harmful" considered harmful
01:26:35 <kmc> Bike: what about asm goto
01:27:12 <JesseH> Harm things? I hope so.
01:27:16 <Bike> kmc, have you seen knuth's paper about goto, 's cool
01:27:23 <kmc> potatos are great
01:27:35 <kmc> it must have sucked to live in europe before they got all the cool foods from the new world
01:27:39 <Bike> "Structured programming with GO TO statements"
01:27:43 <kmc> italian food with no tomatoes
01:27:45 <Bike> direct response to djikstra
01:27:50 <Bike> dijkstra? dutch
01:28:12 <JesseH> basically, in my language, everything in between the :'s have a numerical number..which is in order
01:28:14 <Bike> what was europe's staple crop anyway
01:28:36 <JesseH> You can now hop to any part of the program :D
01:29:05 <Bike> oh, wheat, duh
01:30:07 <Bike> apparently the most productive corn farms are in israel nowadays
01:30:11 <kmc> then they got the potato in ireland and the population doubled
01:30:12 <Bike> ~*~globalization~*~
01:30:15 <kmc> then it dropped by half >_<
01:30:45 <mnoqy> disease or famine or
01:30:54 <Bike> he's talking about the famine presumably
01:30:54 <kmc> famine brought on by potato disease
01:30:59 <kmc> since they were all like the same species
01:31:07 <Bike> in which case you can blame the disease and also britain (THANKS ELLIOTT)
01:31:32 <JesseH> I love this channel XD
01:31:43 <JesseH> I'm so used to being kicked and banned for saying off-topic shit
01:31:54 <JesseH> You know that you can't talk about ubuntu in #ubuntu?
01:31:55 <Bike> JesseH: how could would you say your language is at resource allocation in emergency conditions
01:32:01 <kmc> "I think we are on the verge of discovering at last what programming languages should really be like." -- Donald Knuth, 1974
01:32:02 <Bike> (now it's on-topic. you're welcome)
01:32:15 <Bike> *how good would
01:32:16 <JesseH> no no i'm not complaining!
01:32:22 <JesseH> please continue to speak about potatos
01:32:27 <Bike> that's good. complaints are off-topic.
01:32:38 <kmc> boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew
01:32:41 <Bike> be happy, citizen
01:32:48 <JesseH> kmc, forgot the rest D:
01:33:17 <JesseH> Bike, this is a high level esoteric language
01:33:20 <kmc> ah the british stole the best land in ireland for grazing cows
01:35:07 <kmc> (that's a cow, hth)
01:37:17 <JesseH> Isn't there a moo language?
01:37:32 <Sgeo> There's the language that MOOs use
01:38:40 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/COW
01:39:18 <mnoqy> of course it's a brainfuck
01:40:32 <Sgeo> Blah, CORS considers POST of application/x-ww-form-urlencoded to be a "simple request" that it can just go ahead and send to a remote server without asking
01:40:39 <Sgeo> (Because of course it could be done without CORS)
01:43:02 <Sgeo> (Actually, hmm, not so sure)
01:46:28 <Sgeo> Oh, I think if CORS isn't used browser still complains with a CORS sounding message
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01:49:48 <Sgeo> Ta-da http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16240872/crossdomain/demo.htm
01:50:10 <Sgeo> Might need to use Wireshark though to convince someone that snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu isn't explicitly denying it
01:51:40 <kmc> this is a demonstration for work?
01:51:55 <Sgeo> For a disagreement I have with my boss
01:51:58 <Sgeo> Tangeltally related to work
01:54:09 <Sgeo> Hum. I think the server is actually SENDING the contents of the file, just the browser is refusing to tell the Javascript what it is.
01:54:22 * Sgeo wonders if there are any interesting implications of this.
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02:06:11 <Sgeo> 'Therefore, sites that prevent cross-site request forgery have nothing new to fear from HTTP access control.'
02:06:39 <Sgeo> Yes, but sites that are already vulnerable to CSRF just found being CSRFed slightly easier for the attacker to do.... which I guess isn't a big deal.
02:09:18 <JesseH> Hi can anyone look through the language overview and give me tips on what else the language needs? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
02:10:22 <Sgeo> I just thought of an attack scenario due to CORS.
02:10:36 <Bike> JesseH: 99 bottles
02:10:52 <JesseH> Bike, really? ill totally add that if you want ^^
02:11:01 <JesseH> bike: will print out "99 bottles"
02:11:28 <Lumpio-> That's what CORS does. It sends a GET request.
02:11:28 <Bike> as in 99 bottles of beer
02:11:35 <Lumpio-> This is why you don't ever make a GET request change anything.
02:11:41 <Lumpio-> You've been able to do that since the beginning of time anyways
02:11:41 <Sgeo> Suppose you're on insecure wifi, and you're aware of it, so you decide that you won't visit youridiotbankthatdoesntusehttps.com
02:11:51 <Lumpio-> With script elements, img elements, iframes, whatnot
02:12:02 <mnoqy> bike's saying your language needs more beer
02:12:11 <Bike> "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer; take one down, pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall! 98 bottles of beer on the wall, 98 bottles of beer...[etc]"
02:12:17 <Bike> alt. something remotely interesting, like ackermann
02:12:22 <Sgeo> But, on accident, you do visit evil.com, and someone working with evil.com is snooping your traffic.
02:12:35 <JesseH> I've heard the reference before
02:12:38 <Lumpio-> I'm pretty sure that's a known attack vector, Sgeo
02:13:00 <Bike> JesseH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/99_bottles_of_beer
02:13:01 <Sgeo> evil.com sends a simple CORS request with credentials to the bank.
02:13:16 <Lumpio-> It doesn't even need to be a CORS request it can be a damn img tag
02:13:31 <Sgeo> ....good point.
02:13:53 <Bike> i don't think evil.com deserves this slander
02:14:04 <JesseH> Ohhhh Bike okay i understand now!
02:14:50 <Bike> JesseH: also implement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function
02:15:52 <JesseH> Alright thanks for the tips
02:17:05 <Sgeo> "Important note: when responding to a credentialed request, server must specify a domain, and cannot use wild carding. "
02:17:32 <Sgeo> I guess server could reflect Origin, but then what if it's cached
02:17:36 <JesseH> Bike, Does it have to get the first number, and put that in front of the string?
02:17:37 <Sgeo> Oh, it being cached can be blocked
02:17:44 <Bike> JesseH: does what have to what
02:18:31 <JesseH> i have to write a program in my language that if you type something, it will manipulate that data and return something else
02:18:57 <JesseH> I need an if statement in my language...I know that
02:19:01 <Bike> i for one don't care about i/o
02:19:06 <Bike> how you do it, rather
02:19:14 <Bike> just have something compute ackermann somehow
02:19:18 <Lumpio-> Sgeo: Again, an img tag will always send credentials .-.
02:19:23 <Lumpio-> You can't even disable it.
02:19:29 <Bike> you don't 'need' an if statement per se
02:19:38 <Bike> you can compute ackmerann in lambda calculus if you hate yourself sufficiently
02:19:55 <Bike> or more realistically use the µ-recursive formalism
02:20:02 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, I'm saying what if I want to receive and reply to non-simple credentialed requests for some reason
02:20:04 <Bike> "old skoooool"
02:21:08 <Lumpio-> One of the few languages I've actually bothered to implement was a language that gave you functions and a way to call them and then you could implement stuff like integers by hand.
02:21:25 <Lumpio-> Or well it gave you a way to define functions. None exist to begin with
02:25:34 <JesseH> ackerman function is a bit confusing. I may just be sleepy.
02:26:04 <Bike> it's a "pretty cool function"
02:26:08 <Bike> lern that math
02:26:12 <JesseH> I'm looking at other examples
02:26:56 <JesseH> How could I do this without if statement?
02:27:32 <JesseH> How can I write this in a language without the ability to create functions?
02:27:49 <mnoqy> you can't do much in an imperative language without control flow :-)
02:27:54 <Bike> that's pretty vague
02:28:01 <mnoqy> Bike: well have you seen the spec
02:28:04 <Bike> imagine doing it on a turing machine if you like
02:28:06 <mnoqy> it has no "conditional jumps"
02:28:29 <lifthrasiir> so no control flows and still trying to be Turing-complete?
02:28:30 <mnoqy> closest it gets are "repeat this thing `n` times" and "unconditional jump"
02:28:31 <JesseH> I can add conditions >:P
02:28:42 <mnoqy> lifthrasiir: well obv. it's not tc
02:28:54 <JesseH> That's the part I'm working on
02:28:59 <mnoqy> conditions are so mainstream
02:28:59 <JesseH> Seeing what I need for it to be turing complete
02:29:27 <Bike> well, if it can compute the ackermann function it's turing complete, probably, so there's a goal
02:29:34 <lifthrasiir> mnoqy: of course it is not TC but sometimes very obscure feature can turn out to be a "TC-able control flow"
02:29:38 <mnoqy> Bike: um are you sure
02:29:38 <JesseH> In my language, to go on forever, printing a number that gets bigger each time you do this...
02:29:48 <Bike> mnoqy: "probably"!!
02:30:20 <Bike> though can you make tcness out of composing ackermanns or some shit, iunno
02:30:33 <mnoqy> ackermanns is total sooooooooo
02:30:42 <lifthrasiir> JesseH: I can't get a gist of your language (from the past log), can you describe a bit more? :)
02:31:12 <JesseH> nu:x:0:ad:y:x:1:ou:y:gt:4
02:31:13 <Bike> oh right, you need to halt at some point, durr.
02:32:01 <JesseH> well that just prints 1 forever :/
02:33:03 <JesseH> lifthrasiir, sorry im super thinking
02:33:13 <JesseH> brains cpu is all on one thing right now
02:33:20 <mnoqy> what's cool is those "conjecturally tc" languages where you've got tc iff someones math conjecture holds
02:33:21 <JesseH> You can force close or wait
02:33:38 <Bike> mnoqy: more interesting than 'something something goldman's' i hope
02:33:48 <mnoqy> i think there are at least two?
02:33:52 <mnoqy> probably one is that
02:33:53 <Bike> or whatever the prime one is? how do i always forget it
02:33:59 <lifthrasiir> JesseH: yes, it is definitely not TC, meaning that it is not on the same level as other esolangs and normal languages (at least conceptually)
02:34:06 <Bike> we should stop naming people after elements
02:34:27 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Oozlybub_and_Murphy this is the goldbach one, thank's cpressey
02:34:35 <mnoqy> forget where the other one is
02:34:42 <lifthrasiir> Bike: and hydrogen should be renamed to unium
02:34:51 <Bike> infinitely long identifiers, nice
02:35:00 <JesseH> lifthrasiir, turing completeness is my goal
02:35:47 <lifthrasiir> there are several ways to add turing completeness
02:36:37 <JesseH> I think ill make the if statement only check if the two variables are ==
02:36:45 <JesseH> That will make things interesting.
02:36:54 <lifthrasiir> but in general you need i) unbounded code repetition or loop and ii) unbounded storage that can be read and written arbitrarily (though it can be also arbitrarily slow)
02:38:37 <Bike> imo, jesseh should learn ski calculus and then make something interesting
02:39:08 <mnoqy> imo make something sub-tc and interesting
02:39:27 <kmc> make something which is tc iff the riemann hypothesis holds
02:39:37 <Bike> that sounds painful.
02:40:11 <JesseH> ill making something that is only sometimes tc
02:40:12 <kmc> "One lesser known aspect of the game deals with the numerous tree stumps found around the slopes of SkiFree. Users have found that when skied over backwards they transform into a small spotty mushroom.... The mushrooms may illustrate an extrapolation of Plato's theory of ideas in which the physical form of something may not reveal its true identity and only its representation in our particular plane of existence."
02:40:51 <JesseH> everytime the interpreter is run, it throws a random, and if it is whatever value, it will use the code that makes it turing complete
02:41:02 <Bike> i should make an esolang based on dynamics instead of all this "discreteness" crap. first, i will learn to math
02:41:29 <lifthrasiir> CHI... I don't remember the name right now
02:41:50 <Bike> reminds me of neumann's paper on computing neural networks with faulty components, except suxx0rz
02:42:11 <lifthrasiir> which has a simple instruction X which supposedly makes the entire language TC
02:42:34 <lifthrasiir> the reference implementation invokes Perl for that purpose
02:43:29 <pikhq> #!/bin/perl \n #X :P
02:46:25 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/12868568fcce5b6a70804b519de198f3/tumblr_mm480oyaRw1qjyqixo1_1280.jpg h t h
02:50:16 <JesseH> I'm going to bed. Tomorrow...turring completeness is among us.
03:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i choose to interpret this as a savaging of dinosaur comics
03:04:20 <Bike> good interpretation
03:06:14 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: john carmack didn't come up with the magic inverse square root constant? if i was the hero-worshipping type i'd be shattered
03:09:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with allowing a webpage to read arbitrary domains' GETable-without-cookies stuff?
03:09:23 <Sgeo> In theory, someone could just put up a server somewhere that allows that indirectly
03:10:07 <Bike> maybe the real problems is just cookies in general eh
03:10:51 <Sgeo> They need to be scrapped and a new mechanism developed.
03:12:12 <constant> Sgeo: imagine I requested page A with cookies and it is now cached
03:12:30 <constant> if an arbitrary page could read that, they may get sensative data
03:12:46 <Sgeo> Well, if you're not sending the cookies, it deserves to be considered different in the cache.
03:13:01 <ais523> also, even if there's no private data involved
03:13:08 <ais523> they can measure how long it takes for the request to come back
03:13:14 <ais523> to see if you've visited the website recently
03:13:47 <constant> even without cookies, they can use: "did this image come back fast enough"
03:14:16 <constant> Sgeo: also, some (silly) websites don't have indepotent GET requests
03:14:33 <coppro> that should be a shooting offence
03:14:58 <Sgeo> constant, said websites are already screwed
03:15:17 <constant> Sgeo: it turns a misconfiguration or miscoding application bug into a security issue
03:15:45 <Sgeo> It was already a security issue.
03:16:00 <Sgeo> img tag with src, or attacker's proxy somewhere
03:16:34 <constant> years ago I used to know all this stuff, havn't done web application pen testing for a long time though
03:17:06 <mnoqy> hm that reminds me of reading in a ph'p book that used extract on $_GET or $_POST i forget which (both?)..... i forget the book too
03:17:24 <mnoqy> http://php.net/manual/en/function.extract.php what a cute language
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03:18:05 <Bike> Oh, yeah, that used to be infamous.
03:18:19 <Bike> But uh... I guess they still let you do it, huh.
03:18:40 <Bike> oh right, it's register_globals
03:18:41 <constant> register_globals is horrible too
03:18:47 <mnoqy> ah i remember that too
03:20:02 <Bike> "superglobals"
03:29:30 <Sgeo> You know what would be interesting? A browser marketing itself (and trying to be) secure by sacrificing some backwards-compatibility
03:42:56 <kmc> what do i need to know about heap corruption exploits
03:43:15 <kmc> i get this idea that you can overwrite block list pointers and use that to trick the allocator into writing a chosen value to a chosen address
03:43:18 <ais523> Sgeo: that happens all the time, e.g. Firefox disabled some CSS features for a while for security reasons
03:43:27 <kmc> or you can just clobber other app data on the heap as desired
03:43:39 <Bike> that sounds pretty cool kmc
03:44:03 <Sgeo> :visited, or does CSS have more security issues than that?
03:44:50 <kmc> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=8 is a really sophisticated heap attack that I never understood in full
03:45:00 <Bike> we should just scrap the web and use project xanadu
03:48:18 <Bike> this splitter thing seems like it should be somewhere that isn't sudo.
03:51:25 <Bike> huh, 8 byte alignment...
03:52:26 <Bike> "Luckily for the attacker who smashes the heap in order to execute arbitrary code, the GNU C Library does not activate these error detection mechanisms" sweet
03:55:44 <Bike> "It may be possible, although hard to do reliably in a real-world attack, for a malicious web site to execute arbitrary machine code in the context of the web browser" some good links here kmc
03:56:01 <shachaf> kmc: Where did he say that?
04:02:55 <kmc> who say what
04:11:27 <coppro> apparently I have moderator powers on stackoverflow now
04:11:33 <coppro> I haven't done anything on that site in like 2 years
04:11:44 <Bike> ban everything
04:12:45 <kmc> ban all non-PHP questions
04:16:26 <kmc> oh, on zephyr
04:19:07 <Bike> why does C have calloc for zeroed arrays but nothing special for uninitialized arrays? like, the way calloc takes a unit and all.
04:20:46 <Jafet> Why do people expect any kind of internal consistency from C
04:21:29 <shachaf> kmc: As far as I understand the state of the art in MD5 collisions isn't good enough to exploit that. :-(
04:21:32 <Sgeo> Is it at least more consistent than the web 'standards'?
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04:21:53 <Bike> because it's a widely used language that bla bla god forbid i ask a historical question without being greeted by a chorus of "it just sucks"
04:22:36 <shachaf> This is a bizarre misprint.
04:23:05 <shachaf> The first half of this page is taken from the first half of a page a dozen pages later.
04:23:29 <mnoqy> tjat sounds like a misprint alright
04:23:29 <shachaf> Up to the new chapter heading.
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04:23:56 <shachaf> But the page number isn't.
04:24:31 <shachaf> should i sue the publisher
04:24:40 <Bike> Who's the publisher?
04:25:48 <Bike> they publish books?
04:26:50 <shachaf> By book I meant laptop catalog.
04:26:55 <shachaf> ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Publishing )
04:27:20 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_Catalogue
04:27:39 <Bike> The American Gun Mystery
04:28:35 <shachaf> Each edition of the catalogue takes about 10 months to develop from concept to final product.[3]
04:28:47 <shachaf> Is the concept, uh, different every year?
04:29:05 <Jafet> Is a baby really different to another baby?
04:52:56 <kmc> i love that this old sudo exploit comes from utterly mundane string manipulation in logging
04:53:05 <kmc> and the more recent one that was some obscure debug code
04:53:28 <Bike> am i naïve to think that that sort of thing shouldn't be part of the sudo code anyway
04:53:50 <kmc> that's the thing, even if you have some good reason to write your app in C, it probably only applies to 5% of the code and not to the 95% of boring error handling, argument processing, etc.
04:54:04 <Bike> like shouldn't that be in a library or something
04:54:21 <kmc> even in a kernel, most of the code (by SLoC) is not doing anything particularly performance sensitive or low-level
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04:57:35 <Bike> are you implying we might be well-served by writing applications out of multiple interacting modules, the implementation considerations of which don't impinge on each other's implementation considerations without good reason
04:57:39 <Bike> or is that just me
04:58:36 <Jafet> We're all just doomed
04:58:51 <Bike> or we're all just doomed.
04:58:53 <kmc> some combination of using multiple languages, and using languages that are safe by default but have these low-level capabilities
04:59:17 <Jafet> Now of course, those languages are implemented
04:59:21 <kmc> Haskell is a good example of a language that's safe by default, and suitable for systems programming (maybe not kernels so much, but like, high-preformance network servers)
04:59:36 <kmc> this is part of why I get annoyed that everyone wanks about Haskell being sooooo mathematical and pure and not about the cool real world stuff it can do
04:59:47 <kmc> Jafet: sure, but you end up with a smaller trusted base
04:59:54 <Bike> imo fuck mathematical purity (hiiii elliottttt)
05:00:25 <Bike> That's a lot smaller than a linux system full of programs, is the point
05:00:33 <kmc> the GHC RTS is 50,000 lines of C and assembly code
05:00:35 <kmc> it's scary
05:00:36 <Bike> also is that the whole thing or just the C part
05:00:49 <kmc> but not as scary as every app being written separately in C
05:01:12 <kmc> also, we hope that kernel and programming language development can attract a higher caliber of programmers than applications development
05:01:18 <Jafet> The trusted base also contains the code generator, bytestring, and if lens is still using unsafePerformIO somewhere
05:01:31 <kmc> and we can justify expending more effort per line of code, because those core projects are used widely
05:01:44 <Jafet> That's already true though
05:01:48 <kmc> i mean, this battle is largely won, most software is written in Ruby and JavaScript now
05:01:53 <kmc> could be better but could be worse
05:02:10 <kmc> unfortunately the web has its own awful security problems
05:02:25 <Jafet> The most amusing javascript attack is the heap fengshui thing
05:02:40 <Bike> the most amusing web security thing is billion laughs.
05:02:58 <Jafet> Where they load a javascript program to attack the javascript vm
05:03:39 <kmc> is that the jit spraying attack technique or another
05:04:53 <Jafet> Well, it gives you a known heap layout
05:05:01 <Jafet> Then you can setup the actual attack
05:05:43 <kmc> do you know about JIT spraying? http://www.semantiscope.com/research/BHDC2010/BHDC-2010-Paper.pdf
05:07:21 <kmc> you write JS that the JIT will compile into some innocuous instructions, then you use whatever vuln to make the browser jump into the middle of an instruction and, surprise, all those numerical constants actually contain shellcode
05:08:35 <kmc> that paper also talks about inferring addresses of heap objects from their sort order in associative data structures
05:08:39 <Jafet> Didn't Appel do that with java and a tanning lamp
05:09:11 <kmc> that was another fun paper
05:09:24 <Jafet> Well, they didn't jump into the middle of instructions
05:10:23 <Bike> kmc: do you know if there's been any work on secure mallocs or does just nobody care
05:10:39 <Jafet> What is a secure malloc
05:11:01 <Bike> a malloc not making sudo vulnerable to weird crap like this phrack paper.
05:11:12 <shachaf> allocates mlocked memory so that keys and passwords won't be swapped to disk hth
05:11:23 <kmc> i'm sure there has been some
05:11:34 <kmc> putting canary values at the beginning/end of blocks, checking them on free
05:11:35 <Bike> In this case because parts of dlmalloc's bookkeeping is stored right with the data, in the heap.
05:12:17 <Jafet> malloc doesn't have vulnerabilities, or at least I've not heard of one
05:12:21 <kmc> also stuff like https://code.google.com/p/address-sanitizer/ basically gives you a safe allocator that tracks which memory you are and aren't allowed to touch
05:12:34 <Jafet> But it's just another firearm in the handy C arsenal
05:12:45 <kmc> that's in GCC 4.8 btw
05:12:55 <Bike> it's not a vulnerability in malloc, per se, but the design makes the explot possible
05:12:58 <Bike> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=8
05:13:17 <Bike> at least, without compiled-in options that libc elides, i guess
05:14:21 <Jafet> If someone can access whatever bit of memory that they want, then no implementation of malloc is going to stop them
05:14:44 <Jafet> You can write a malloc that makes it a bit harder, but that doesn't solve anything
05:14:49 <Bike> but they can't, they can only access some particular bytes just after the memory.
05:15:32 <kmc> Jafet: there totally is value in making exploits harder to write, less reliable, more likely to be noticed
05:15:43 <kmc> that's why we have stack canaries, ASLR, NX pages, etc
05:15:49 <kmc> none of these things is foolproof
05:15:51 <Jafet> Yes, it's all a pointless arms race
05:15:51 <kmc> no security is
05:15:55 <Bike> and now i'm thinking of the gun control debate.
05:16:02 <kmc> i think it's not pointless
05:16:15 <kmc> it is legitimately a lot harder to write an exploit today than 10 years ago
05:16:17 <Jafet> I think it distracts people from trying to do things correctly
05:16:40 <Jafet> Computers are purely symbolic systems, barring hardware failures you can make exploits impossible
05:16:41 <kmc> yeah i'm sure that spender will see the light and start working on the GHC typechecker
05:16:54 <Bike> Has anyone ever actually used a correct system
05:16:56 <Jafet> And I don't think it's inherently difficult
05:17:06 <kmc> Jafet: uh, surely you mean 'exploits' only in a narrow sense of memory corruption or something
05:17:10 <kmc> not all security problems
05:17:18 <Bike> I mean people even talk in here about failures of checked haskell or whatever it's called all the time.
05:17:32 <Bike> But it would be ridiculous to then say that it's a pointless effort.
05:18:04 <Bike> Also, "bloze" should be a word. Like, past tense of "blaze".
05:18:13 <Jafet> Most security problems seem to be in the area of we tried to abstract this away but we failed
05:18:19 <kmc> this channel bloze goats
05:18:24 <Jafet> Memory is one example
05:18:43 <Bike> We tried to abstract away logging but we ended up breaking sudo :( :( :(
05:18:47 <kmc> C does not particularly try to abstract memory away
05:18:56 <kmc> also I think your statement is too general to be useful
05:19:15 <Jafet> Thus the C programmer gets to do it every day
05:19:21 <kmc> yes, programs are made of abstractions
05:19:32 <kmc> so most program failures can be seen as a failure of abstraction at some level
05:19:41 <Bike> You know what would make this conversation clearer? Some Hegel.
05:19:47 <Bike> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/se/abstract.htm
05:20:30 <kmc> Jafet: if you're arguing that people shouldn't use C as much as they do, then of course I agree (I said so above), but I think it's still worthwhile protecting whatever code is still written in C (for whatever good or bad reason)
05:20:37 <kmc> including language runtimes for that matter
05:20:58 <kmc> i generally believe in harm reduction, rather than in making things extra harmful out of a mistaken belief that people will not do them
05:21:03 <kmc> i also believe in defense in depth
05:22:15 <kmc> apps have bugs, runtimes have bugs, type checkers have bugs, kernels have bugs, hypervisors have bugs, hardware has bugs
05:22:52 <kmc> interestingly I'm not aware of a hardware bug in a major CPU that had consequences worse than denial of service
05:22:57 <kmc> anyone have examples?
05:23:10 <Jafet> "Plugging" the known risks generally means making the software more complicated
05:23:15 <Bike> Um, fdiv messed up a few scientific calculations, briefly?
05:23:34 <kmc> hard to define which things are security problems
05:23:50 <kmc> i guess this is part of why Linus totally ignores the distinction
05:23:56 <Jafet> Wasn't there a bug in x86 hypervisor instructions
05:23:57 <kmc> but it's not healthy in practice
05:24:00 <Bike> hm, security problems... maybe a bad RNG?
05:25:00 <Bike> I'm thinking of, like, WWII crypto here >_>
05:25:14 <kmc> there was the SWAPGS non-canonical address issue that led to privesc in several OSes
05:25:22 <kmc> that was a disagreement between Intel and AMD on the fine points of the instruction
05:25:25 <kmc> but documented, I believe
05:27:48 <Bike> dos is like, the most popular payload of most attacks, possibly because it's so easy. it's hard to think of other things
05:29:34 <kmc> i'm not sure what scope you're talking about
05:29:50 <Jafet> Well, if you count crowding out a webbrowser with toolbars as dos
05:30:06 <Bike> Most of what I know about security, which isn't much of course, is gleaned from reading about shitty old viruses, which usually just posted some stupid message and borked your computer.
05:31:46 <kmc> yeah, much like the internet as a whole, the hobbyists and tinkerers got there before the businesspeople
05:32:15 <kmc> these days compromised windows machines are a tradeable commodity
05:32:37 <Bike> But I mean, dos is pretty easy compared to stealing passwords or w/e generally, isn't it? Just do some LOIC.
05:33:12 <kmc> startup idea: high frequency arbitrage on markets for compromised windows machines
05:33:19 <kmc> exit plan: get murdered by russian gangsters
05:33:33 <Jafet> Using compromised windows machines to do high frequency arbitrage?
05:33:46 <kmc> I mean buying and selling them
05:33:51 <Bike> No, using machines as the commodity.
05:33:58 <kmc> ditto for credit card numbers, CAPTCHA solving services, etc.
05:34:02 <kmc> spam sending credits
05:34:07 <kmc> all of this is traded online in huge volume now
05:34:21 <Jafet> Well, these things tend to depreciate after each sale
05:34:24 <Bike> Too bad the black market is so hard to observe, I bet it's really interesting economically.
05:34:38 <kmc> spam wouldn't be economical if you actually had to pay for the servers and bandwidth
05:34:44 <kmc> i mean at legit rates
05:35:16 <kmc> Bike: i think it's not so hard to observe... I know there was at least one paper about the CAPTCHA breaking market
05:36:07 <Bike> Well you don't have government agencies releasing stats on 'em.
05:36:09 <kmc> they don't need to be super hidden because they operate in countries with corrupt or ineffective governments who don't cooperate with the governments of the people they're attacking
05:36:29 <Jafet> What is CAPTCHA breaking exactly
05:36:39 <kmc> well do you know what a CAPTCHA is
05:36:49 <Jafet> I gather it's more sophisticated than the old trick of redirecting them to a porn site
05:36:50 <kmc> you can pay people to solve them for you
05:37:00 <Bike> It doesn't have to be more sophisticated than that.
05:37:12 <kmc> poor people at internet cafes in the third world
05:37:12 <Bike> It could just mean selling the solved captchas generated by the porn.
05:37:16 <kmc> \rainbow{GLOBALIZATION}
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05:37:39 <Jafet> At least it's a white collar job
05:38:57 <kmc> not in most senses
05:39:35 <kmc> it's pretty trippy that you can make an API call in your program that results in sending an image to some kid in bangladesh who looks at it, types in some letters in a foreign script, and then your API call returns
05:40:51 * kmc has done some Mechanical Turk tasks
05:41:09 <kmc> Amazon is pretty good at keeping the sketchiest stuff off of MTurk I think
05:41:29 <Bike> I should probably do some turk stuff sometime. It'd probably beat yardwork.
05:41:49 <shachaf> THE JOKE IS MECHANICAL TURK HTH
05:41:50 <Bike> That seems like a really weird etymological reference, shachaf.
05:42:10 <shachaf> Bike: Have you considered that perhaps you are a really weird etymological reference?
05:42:26 <shachaf> hlep im trunign into e lliott
05:42:28 <kmc> chess: the only winning move is not to play
05:42:36 <Bike> Well, actually yes, my nick's etymology is a bit weird.
05:43:00 <shachaf> kmc: Well, that and putting the other player in checkmate. hth
05:43:14 <shachaf> the joke is that you have a billion nicks
05:43:40 <shachaf> Fiora was fiora for a while today.
05:43:48 <kmc> i did a lot of clicking on road signs
05:43:53 <shachaf> Sadly the capital letter is back.
05:45:40 <Bike> did you like... /whois her repeatedly...
05:46:37 <Bike> Well I mean, she hasn't been here.
05:46:37 <shachaf> We have two channels in common!
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06:26:04 <Bike> `welcome dick licking
06:26:08 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:26:08 <HackEgo> dick: licking: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:27:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hi: not found
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08:14:53 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy the only algebraic structure to orbit a planet
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09:12:10 <nortti> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer
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11:21:07 <JesseH> Alright, I have a conditional statement. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang | Check "it" in Language Overview.
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12:55:20 <JesseH> Anyone have any good suggestions for esoteric languages to learn?
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13:09:22 <nooodl> JesseH: hey, how does 'ou' work? does it append a newline when printing something?
13:09:22 <lambdabot> nooodl: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:10:26 <nooodl> st:foo:Hello, world!:co:foo:foo:foo:
13:10:40 <nooodl> or must 'co' always declare a new string?
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13:13:27 <nooodl> also, what happens when you 'goto' in-between statements? maybe "parts of the program" should be split like this:
13:13:33 <nooodl> [['st', 'foo', '30'], ['ou', 'What is your name?'], ['ip', 'name'], ['fo', '5', 'ou', 'name']]
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13:20:26 <JesseH> nooodl, it will ignore and go on to the next statement
13:20:33 <JesseH> nooodl, ou:x will output whatever x is
13:20:44 <JesseH> if x isn't a declared variable it will output "x"
13:20:56 <JesseH> nooodl, I think "st:foo:Hello, world!:co:foo:foo:foo:" is legal
13:21:01 <nooodl> with a newline char after it?
13:21:03 <JesseH> You can test with the interpreter if youde like
13:21:11 <JesseH> nooodl, and yes new line
13:21:17 <nooodl> pff i don't have lua :(
13:21:35 <JesseH> Just go install lua5.1 XD
13:22:31 <JesseH> Once I get the socket library added, we can have some real fun XD
13:24:42 <JesseH> nooodl, st:foo:Hello, world!:co:foo:foo:foo:ou:foo: didn't work D:
13:24:51 <JesseH> But in theory it's supposed to so it's an implementation error
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13:26:17 <nooodl> should "gt:x:" work, if x is a number variable?
13:26:51 <JesseH> and it should work if x is declared
13:27:16 <nooodl> oof. that makes compiling this language a lot harder
13:28:49 <nooodl> actually the way gt works already makes it kinda weird! take a look at this example:
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13:29:37 <JesseH> That will give you a lua error
13:30:02 <JesseH> You are basically giving gt the value of 6
13:30:08 <JesseH> which is not what you're supposed to do XD
13:30:21 <JesseH> Trying to break my codez are we? ;D
13:31:01 <nooodl> oh commands and vars are in the same dict
13:32:14 <JesseH> st:foo:hi:st:coo:bye:co:z:foo:coo:ou:z:
13:32:51 <JesseH> That's not supposed to happen
13:33:16 <nooodl> how should i run a derplang program using your lua interpreter
13:33:37 <nooodl> oh, wait, it's in the readme
13:33:38 <JesseH> lua derplang.lua filename.derp
13:38:09 <nooodl> wow this is kinda crazy
13:39:11 <nooodl> nu:gt:6: acts as both a nu and a gt command
13:39:42 <boily> mc:do:na:ld:sc:hi:ck:en:nu:gt:
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13:48:26 <oerjan> <JesseH> Will the Contents thingy show up automatically? <-- there's a minimum number of sections before it shows up, i think, and there's also some user viewing preference.
13:49:29 <JesseH> nooodl, :-) there is lots of magic to my language you don't know
13:49:35 <oerjan> <JesseH> Someone needs to create a language, that is used for creating other languages. <-- haskell hth
13:49:37 <JesseH> Thanks to lua's derpness
13:50:07 <oerjan> (getting two #esoteric memes in a two-word response, new record?)
13:51:17 <oerjan> JesseH: also emmental on the wiki might count, in a different way.
13:51:30 <JesseH> I'm confused on a lot of wiki stuff
13:51:34 <JesseH> So I don't understand what you mean
13:51:47 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental
13:52:01 <oerjan> recently featured language.
13:52:05 <JesseH> boily, give descriptions of each one of those commands and ill put em in ;)
13:53:13 <JesseH> I am what you call...a genital morpher
13:53:41 <JesseH> mighty morphing genitalssss
13:53:49 <boily> MaCro, DO loop, NAnd, LoaD, SCatter (like in MPI), HIgh (tri-state logic), Calvin Klein, ENable, and I think nu and gt are already defined.
13:54:07 <HackEgo> 685) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
13:57:53 <nooodl> i think derplang is turing complete atm
13:58:28 <elliott> 18:43:20: <oerjan> <-- i suspect the computers made for people that don't want to care about computers are eerily unconcerned with making programming easy hth
13:58:29 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine probably!
13:58:31 <JesseH> fixing a couple bugs in implementation
13:58:44 <oerjan> <shachaf> mnoqy: How do you talk about rank-n types etc. in Haskell "categorically"? hth <-- i suggest asking at the n-category café hth
13:58:47 <nooodl> two registers, addition, subtraction, if/then, goto
13:59:04 <oerjan> elliott: universe is a bitch
13:59:13 <nooodl> minsky machines feel like cheating
13:59:25 <nooodl> how the fuck are they ever TC
13:59:56 <elliott> nooodl: are monoids cheating :-)
14:00:33 <oerjan> nooodl: because you can encode a stack of bits as an integer using something called "binary" hth
14:00:45 <nooodl> anyway what's up with people making a brainfuck implementation in their lang to prove it's TC
14:01:03 <oerjan> nooodl: well sometimes that actually _is_ a good fit.
14:01:53 <JesseH> My little derplang is all grown up
14:02:56 <nooodl> i added this to the wiki article
14:03:05 <nooodl> Any Minsky machine can be translated into a derplang program using nu, ad, su, gt and it. Therefore, derplang is Turing complete.
14:03:06 <boily> JesseH: next step is to write a bf interpreter in it, and a quine, and 99 bottles of beer.
14:03:14 <nooodl> is that enough of a proof or am i cheating too hard
14:03:28 <nooodl> i mean the translation is super obvious... it'd be silly to write it there
14:05:09 <oerjan> nooodl: try fractran, it's like a minsky machine down to the bone
14:05:11 <JesseH> boily, And put them in the examples? :P
14:06:22 <elliott> perhaps I could pay oerjan to write down my programs instead
14:06:43 <oerjan> elliott: sounds implausible
14:06:52 <boily> JesseH: that's proper etiquette.
14:07:36 <nooodl> t_length = t_length - 1 -- Must do
14:08:04 <oerjan> decrementum necesse est
14:08:29 <nooodl> ceterum censeo t_length decremendum esse
14:09:28 <boily> «C'passque t'as comme pas le choix d'enlever 1 à c't'affaire là, genre»
14:10:47 <boily> from noble Latin to degenerate populare Québec French, you can comment in any style you like!
14:11:08 <JesseH> "create a language that is somewhat confusing and hard to remembe"
14:11:25 <JesseH> If I make the interpreter well documented, that allows people to more easily understand the language
14:13:09 <oerjan> my experience is that documenting esolangs better only marginally improves people's understanding of them.
14:14:02 <JesseH> nooodl, ! I fixed the co issue !
14:14:14 <nooodl> what was the issue, actually
14:14:22 <JesseH> st:foo:hi:st:coo:bye:co:z:foo:coo:ou:z:
14:14:28 <JesseH> That wouldn't work, but now it does :-)
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14:15:20 <nooodl> elseif t[i] == "fo" then
14:15:20 <nooodl> fo(t[i+1], t[i+2], t[i+3], t[i+4], t[i+5])
14:15:40 <JesseH> i think I was messing with that
14:15:57 <nooodl> they're just ignored though
14:16:40 <JesseH> right ill need to send more arguments actually
14:16:41 <nooodl> this just prints A B for me :(
14:16:53 <JesseH> that way you can do more commands then just the single argument ones
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14:18:49 <nooodl_> JesseH: anyway, is fo broken?
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14:20:10 <nooodl_> looks like it's just ignoring the first command or something?! did i break it
14:20:42 <JesseH> no man let me fix and ill push the fix
14:21:17 <FireFly> <oerjan> decrementum necesse est ← working on porting the derplang interpreter to Lingua::Romana::Perligata?
14:21:25 <JesseH> its pushed... nooodl_ enjoy
14:22:26 <nooodl_> man. i don't know what's going on butr
14:22:32 <nooodl_> *but, right now, ou:a:ou:b: prints 'b' for me
14:22:42 <oerjan> FireFly: i cannot say i am working, no.
14:22:57 <JesseH> nooodl_, if they arnt defined it will print the literal string
14:26:43 <JesseH> nooodl_, give me your codez
14:27:57 <nooodl_> the text file had a UTF-8 header thingy in it
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14:28:30 <nooodl_> causing it to read "\xef\xbb\xbfou" instead of "ou"
14:28:48 <elliott> nooodl_: utf-8 boms "aren't a thing"
14:28:55 <elliott> only windows does that imo stop using windows
14:29:08 <myname> i forgot the name of that brainfuck programming game
14:29:45 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_EXTREME: 0.0
14:30:06 <myname> any attempts on games for other languages?
14:30:17 <nooodl_> !bfjoust STRATEGY [-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>
14:30:20 <EgoBot> Score for nooodl__STRATEGY: 12.0
14:30:59 <oerjan> !bfjoust rle ([-]>)*-1
14:31:01 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_rle: 11.4
14:31:22 <FireFly> Clearly STRATEGY is superior
14:31:50 <FireFly> Maybe account for the width of the playing field
14:32:12 <FireFly> er, never mind, that shouldn't matter
14:32:23 <nooodl_> !bfjoust STRATEGY (>)*9([-]>)*-1
14:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for nooodl__STRATEGY: 14.6
14:33:09 <oerjan> did Gregor add an extra underscore?
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14:35:42 <oerjan> <JesseH> What would be the point designing a language without implementing? <-- to make one that is hard (or impossible) to implement hth
14:35:56 <oerjan> in other words, you need to implement Eodermdrome hth
14:36:15 <myname> weren't there a language which needed time traveling?
14:36:20 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
14:36:55 <oerjan> myname: twoducks (which exists, but is unimplementable) and feather (which is implementable, but doesn't yet exist)
14:37:04 <JesseH> nooodl, you like my language? You seem interested :P
14:37:12 <nooodl> i like how broken it is really
14:37:27 <JesseH> nooodl, xD I'm just gonna take that as a complement
14:38:47 * oerjan is suddenly getting an urge to nominate feather as featured language
14:39:28 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure about that, FireFly
14:39:50 <elliott> oerjan: i'll feature it last month.
14:40:31 <oerjan> elliott: ...that would have been appropriate, if it were possible.
14:40:48 <elliott> oerjan: IT WAS A FEATHER JOKE HTH
14:44:01 <JesseH> nooodl, So what now would you say, feature wise?
14:44:09 <nooodl> oh god. ou:hi:fo:2:dofile:derplang.lua:
14:45:05 <JesseH> don't break my interpreter >_>
14:45:20 <nooodl> imo: some kinda data structure that's more useful than just variables
14:45:24 <JesseH> Yes you can execute lua functions from within the derp script itself
14:45:27 <nooodl> arrays, or stacks, anything
14:45:40 <nooodl> that way you'll be able to implement brainfuck! kinda! maybe
14:45:57 <JesseH> unsure on what that is
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15:24:44 <Taneb> I'm on the computer afflicted with the graphics problems
15:30:21 <Taneb> Although I do not know whether it is suffering from that particular malady
15:30:34 <Taneb> For it is afflicted by a far greater curse
15:33:50 <Taneb> A curse that reeks of familiarity
15:35:37 <Taneb> A curse I may have found a solution to
15:35:49 <Taneb> Anyone know how to bookmark things in links2?
15:36:20 <Taneb> Nevermind, I've worked it out
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15:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> is taneb's computer torturing him in an entertaining way again
16:02:24 <oerjan> <kmc> spam wouldn't be economical if you actually had to pay for the servers and bandwidth <-- wait does this mean you could theoretically get rid of the spam problem by buying compromised machine capacity for actually useful purposes, at slightly higher prices than the spammers can afford?
16:03:31 <elliott> the bbc bought a botnet once
16:03:49 <elliott> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/7932816.stm
16:04:13 <oerjan> elliott: yes, but you would have to do enough of it to drive up the prices globally
16:05:39 <oerjan> too high for the spammers to afford, yet too low for the sellers to be able to use the profit to correspondingly increase the supply
16:06:31 <oerjan> i guess the downside is that it would still increase the profit of criminals.
16:07:14 <oerjan> elliott: well i assume the compromisable computer supply is not unlimited.
16:08:42 <oerjan> so at some point to increase the supply, the sellers would have to pay for servers and bandwidth.
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16:12:38 <oerjan> <kmc> it's pretty trippy that you can make an API call in your program that results in sending an image to some kid in bangladesh who looks at it, types in some letters in a foreign script, and then your API call returns
16:13:36 <oerjan> <-- did we discuss making captchas containing propaganda messages to those guys yet? pretty sure we did.
16:18:32 <myname> like "how to use tor"?
16:20:23 <oerjan> somehow i was thinking of actual work advice.
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16:36:02 <Taneb> CHINESE GRAPHICS CARD PROBLEM RESOLVED
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16:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit, the chinese graphics card problem got resolved?
16:37:21 <Taneb> Then I solved it again
16:37:39 <Taneb> Year and a bit, I think
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16:40:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, for some values of "#esoteric", "is", and "on" | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:41:11 <myname> you deserve some kind of a price
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16:41:53 <elliott> Taneb: was it really a year
16:42:03 <Taneb> elliott, I don't think so
16:42:22 <elliott> it felt like a month maybe
16:44:54 <Taneb> elliott, the first problem arose on or shortly before the 16th of January this year
16:45:00 -!- boily has joined.
16:45:01 <Taneb> So, maybe 4 months
16:46:10 <Taneb> Yeah, just under 4 months
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17:09:58 <kmc> what was the problem Taneb
17:10:15 <Taneb> kmc, a series of graphics card driver issues
17:10:49 <Taneb> Originally because I had a bootleg graphics card from a dodgy website which only came with Chinese-language instructions
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17:17:20 <AnotherTest> I just saw someone do if(file.is_open() && file.good() && !file.fail() && !file.bad()) with a std::ifstream :(
17:18:30 <Gregor> You could remove everything from "someone" to "with" and it'd be equally sad.
17:20:07 <Gregor> *eh*, I don't have my silly-language-debate shoes on.
17:21:44 <AnotherTest> Gregor: Well, let's assume this guy has to (worse?: wants to) use C++ here. Would you rather use printf in C++?
17:24:15 <boily> crap recycling is good for plants.
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18:06:29 <nooodl> man what's a non-awful place to learn C++
18:07:17 <nooodl> preferably one in which the first line of code isn't "using namespace std;"
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18:08:12 <AnotherTest> then read "effective C++" for the template stuffs
18:08:32 <nooodl> i'm mostly interested in the template stuffs; maybe i should start there and see if it makes sense to me
18:09:13 <nooodl> (i mean other than templates it's really just "C with OOP" isn't it)
18:11:23 <AnotherTest> Well it's this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_C++_Design
18:12:53 <nooodl> doesn't seem to be online
18:12:56 <kmc> the C++ FAQ Lite is pretty good
18:13:02 <AnotherTest> nooodl: I've got a japanese version if you want
18:14:06 <AnotherTest> It's online http://sfzx.yangtzeu.edu.cn/downloadfile/20121116085836841.pdf
18:15:46 <AnotherTest> (note: I am not sure whether this is legal or not, probably not)
18:18:12 <AnotherTest> well google shouldn't provide me with such data!
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18:33:20 <boily> cicadas are the beef of insects: they're huge and don't really move most of the time.
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18:36:45 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: are these cicadas in the real world
18:42:00 <NihilistDandy> The 17 year cicadas just started emerging recently in the warmer parts of the US
18:43:02 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, I'm pretty excited. It's like seeing a comet except I might be able to experience it with hypothetical future children
18:43:03 <oerjan> are the west coast ones out of phase with the east coast ones?
18:43:51 <Taneb> I cannot find my headphones
18:43:53 <Gregor> I don't think there are any west coast ones, but there are broods out of sync with each other even across the eastern half of the country. This just one of the bigger ones.
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18:43:57 <NihilistDandy> I don't actually know if they live out on the west coast
18:43:59 <Taneb> Nor can I find my bank card
18:44:02 <Taneb> Should I be worried?
18:44:08 <NihilistDandy> Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magicicada
18:45:09 <oerjan> Taneb: the imps took them as payment for fixing the CGCP hth
18:47:39 <oerjan> "Many of these hypothetical 30 broods, however, have not been observed. Furthermore, two of the brood numbers assigned by Marlatt (Broods XI and XXI) existed at one time, but have become extinct."
18:48:00 <Gregor> NihilistDandy: I had never heard of cicadas before moving to Indiana. I think they simply don't exist in the west, periodic or otherwise.
18:49:15 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, that sounds right. I can't remember ever hearing about them out west, but I know all about them from my southern relatives and occasional encounters at home (though where I am in New England doesn't seem to get them muc)
18:49:37 <oerjan> this year appears to be listed as Brood II
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18:50:08 <oerjan> so presumably the largest there
18:50:30 <NihilistDandy> I was only a kid the last time it happened, but I remember it being a pretty big thing :D
18:51:26 <Vorpal> First thunderstorm of the year. Heh
18:51:29 <Vorpal> Also I'm lagging hard from joining a lot of channels :/
18:54:37 <oerjan> "Theoretically, the Cicada, collected at the proper time and suitably dressed and served, should be a rather attractive food. The larvae have lived solely on vegetable matter of the cleanest and most whole-some sort, and supposedly, therefore, would be much more palatable and suitable for food than the oyster, with its scavenger habit of living in the muddy ooze of river bottoms, or many other animals which are highly prized and whi
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18:55:06 <oerjan> which have not half so clean a reco."
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18:55:35 <Gregor> Plus, you only get a chance to eat them once every 17 years, which makes them a snob's delight.
18:56:10 <Gregor> You could collect a bunch, freeze dry them and sell them as snacks for 17 years.
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18:56:34 <oerjan> gregor the mercantile genius
18:56:55 <Gregor> As long as nobody else thinks of it, you would have zero competition for 17 years!
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18:57:34 <Bike> 0/0 = infinite demand
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18:58:16 <Gregor> Bike: I'm like 85% convinced that that's how economics works.
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19:01:42 <nooodl> i was trying to switch clients to hexchat because i heard it was good
19:02:01 <nooodl> guess it fucking sucks! i uninstalled it
19:02:04 <kmc> is hexchat made in hexham
19:02:08 <kmc> is that why its good
19:03:30 <boily> weechat is better!
19:05:19 <NihilistDandy> I dunno, I didn't much like weechat. It was okay, but I wasn't blown away by it. I'm willing to be convinced, though
19:06:23 <elliott> "Experiment: There may be confidential content in your search results. Please do not share outside Google."
19:06:32 <elliott> i just got this when searching on youtube
19:06:46 <Bike> so, what's the confidential content
19:07:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:07:01 <Bike> that's pretty confidential.
19:07:03 <elliott> the results just look normal
19:07:06 <JesseH> http://hastebin.com/xokalomamo.pas
19:07:22 <JesseH> http://hastebin.com/rasoqunune.derp
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19:07:47 <elliott> it's showing on every search
19:07:51 <Taneb> Help I'm trying to part mcmap to Haskell again
19:08:16 <Bike> elliott: is it possible you're a manchurian candidate
19:08:21 <elliott> Taneb: do you get a warning
19:08:23 <elliott> if you search for shit on youtube
19:08:38 <Bike> oh hey, i get the warning.
19:09:20 <elliott> what the fuck would confidental content even be
19:09:34 <Bike> a/b testing really grates sometimes
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19:18:59 <elliott> it doesn't make any sense.
19:19:04 <elliott> what confidental information would go in youtube search results.
19:19:11 <elliott> why would they say "please do not share outside google"
19:19:30 <Bike> well, i've seen a few videos that would probably get me in trouble in some governments, but
19:20:13 <Bike> clips of wars and stuff
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19:21:33 <elliott> Bike: i can't tell if you're being serious or not
19:21:40 <elliott> that seems like a weird thing to refer to as "confidential content"
19:21:47 <Bike> "not that serious"
19:22:18 <Taneb> Maybe it's personalized or something
19:23:01 <elliott> right but... what would *that* mean
19:23:08 <elliott> google have confidential videos of you??
19:23:20 <AnotherTest> I doubt it as youtube doesn't know who I am
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19:23:23 <Bike> i know (of) a guy who got an NYT article and a croatian government response from information he gleaned from youtube videos
19:23:35 <AnotherTest> (tor + no javascript + no cookies = no identity ?)
19:24:22 <Bike> who the hell uses java online
19:24:49 <elliott> Bike: okay but... do not share outside of google??
19:24:52 <elliott> what does it even mean to share inside google
19:24:55 <elliott> like i am not a google employee
19:25:10 <elliott> presumably they don't mean like... only share this confidental info(??) on google+
19:25:40 <elliott> i don't see the relevance but okay
19:25:54 <Bike> oh i figured they meant like, just don't talk about these search results
19:26:21 <NihilistDandy> AnotherTest: DDG all the way. Have my default search set to DDG-HTML-NoJS
19:26:23 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm ddg'ing what it's supposed to mean
19:26:33 <oklopol> the finnish translation says "try:" instead of "experiment:"
19:26:37 <elliott> Bike: well that would make some kind of sense as part of like an A/B trial
19:26:42 <AnotherTest> NihilistDandy: Same here, + HTTPS of course
19:26:49 <elliott> Bike: but (a) do they actually say that? wouldn't that have the opposite of the desired effect??
19:26:52 <oklopol> or, well, experiment as a verb
19:27:06 <elliott> (b) when you talk about confidential stuff it sounds like there's a Reason not to share outside google???? ok i just can't get past how
19:27:10 <elliott> not a word of it makes any sense to me
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19:28:22 <NihilistDandy> I sincerely cannot figure out what it's supposed to mean
19:28:39 <NihilistDandy> Nor do I know why I am a part of this strange experiment but no tech bloggers are
19:28:40 <oklopol> (perhaps it's just a translation error)
19:29:11 <elliott> NihilistDandy: well i haven't seen this message before, like, today
19:29:20 <elliott> perhaps it's just too new to have any coverage yet
19:29:40 <elliott> i mean testing random new stuff on an unsuspecting portion of users is common
19:29:53 <elliott> also given that 100% of us have seen it it might be something everyone is getting?
19:29:56 <AnotherTest> I've spoken to some other people that get the same message
19:30:04 <olsner> maybe it's an attempt at making more users share youtube videos? by claiming they might be secrets?
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19:30:21 <AnotherTest> Although some other don't get it apparently
19:30:23 <kmc> hehe elliott sounds like they think your account is an internal google account
19:30:25 <NihilistDandy> Ooh, all my sikrit let's plays and Haskell videos, y'all
19:30:31 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:30:39 <elliott> kmc: right *that* was the only way "outside of google" could have made sense to me
19:30:48 <Bike> kmc: i got it and a guy in a totally different area got it, so this is quite the fuckup
19:30:59 <elliott> kmc: could they really fuck up that badly and leave it up for more than like
19:31:04 <elliott> i mean surely they know it's happening
19:31:08 <elliott> surely someone at google actually uses youtube
19:31:08 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
19:31:09 <oklopol> also get it through random proxies
19:31:13 <lambdabot> AnotherTest asked 1d 5h 41m 40s ago: I was reading some of the emulator code, and I wondered why the dcpu isn't inheriting from device itself?
19:31:14 <elliott> i guess they're accustomed to seeing it
19:31:25 <elliott> ok wait what should i google to try and find secret internal videos
19:31:42 <elliott> oh wait they wouldn't be used to it? because "experiment"
19:31:47 <Bike> 'domination plan 2013'
19:31:51 <elliott> i'm going to go insane thinking about this
19:32:25 <Bike> how crazy can we drive one elliott
19:32:29 <oklopol> but seriously, do you see how that "experiment" could be a verb
19:32:30 <NihilistDandy> GUYS MY YOUTUBE GOT HACKED ALL MY VIDEO RESULTS ARE ZEITGEIST
19:32:47 <oklopol> like, try our new "find the confidential information video" game?
19:32:50 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: The device abstract class is meant for a device that can be attached to the DCPU. A DCPU can't really be attached to a DCPU because of reasons
19:33:19 <NihilistDandy> ThatOtherPerson: "Because of reasons" is my favorite explanation for anything. I used it on my boss, once
19:33:22 * boily scans elliott with a crackpot-entiometer... *beep*... *beep*... *beep*...
19:33:39 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: I agree, but shouldn't you have another container then that is composed of all devices?
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19:34:42 <Bike> "I had a long chat with Google Ideas on the phone today, and they are looking into implementing some changes on Youtube that would make it easier to do my job, so it'll be fun if they actually go ahead and do it." hmmmmmmm
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19:39:54 <Bike> yesterday, so it's probably too soon to be relevant
19:40:40 <elliott> ah yes, the famous mr. yesterday
19:41:09 <Bike> like the beatles song
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19:48:18 <Dandalion> holy moly... I just read the wiki on brainfuck lol what kind of language is this!!
19:51:25 <Bike> what planet is this *drum solo*
19:52:42 <Taneb> Okay, someone I follow on Tumblr has posted about the Youtube thing
19:52:59 <boily> Bike: I hate you. you instantly earwormed me.
19:53:23 <NihilistDandy> Thank god someone outside #esoteric is talking about it
19:53:31 <Bike> buddabuddabuddabudda
19:54:05 <elliott> i hope we were literally the first place on the internet to mention it
19:55:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Dandalion: brainf*ck is what happens when someone tries to write the easiest language to interpret possible, while still being Turing complete
19:55:42 <Bike> boily: the joke is that there isn't a drum solo
19:56:04 <elliott> there is always a drum solo
19:56:09 <pikhq_> You can actually get easier than Brainfuck.
19:56:11 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: and then takes out a letter?
19:56:21 <pikhq_> OISC systems are freaking easy to interpret.
19:56:41 <elliott> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Experiment%3A+There+may+be+confidential+content+in+your+search+results.+Please+do+not+share+outside+Google.%22&aq=f&oq=%22Experim&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
19:57:00 <pikhq_> That said, Brainfuck is *rather* easy to interpret.
19:57:04 <elliott> 14 mins ago – I got this while looking up penile implants?
19:57:08 <Bike> oh man there were only two results when i googled before
19:57:16 <JesseH> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdugSUFbzws
19:57:36 <pikhq_> ThatOtherPerson: Well, he did have an interpreter size target rather than "the absolute simplest".
19:57:48 <Bike> i thought brainfuck's goal was small /compiler/
19:57:51 <Bike> am i thinking of something else
19:58:11 <pikhq_> Ah, yes, it was a compiler.
19:58:36 <pikhq_> It was a 240 byte compiler.
19:58:44 <kmc> brainfuck is easier to compile than to interpret
19:59:00 <pikhq_> Though it's not especially hard to interpret.
19:59:39 <kmc> yeah, the only difficulty in writing an interpreter is finding matching brackets
20:00:21 <Taneb> I wonder how hard it would be to write, eg, a MIBBLLII compiler
20:00:28 <elliott> kmc: imo google owe me a job for misleading me with this message
20:00:44 <elliott> get my confidential info's
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20:02:56 <Bike> hey today's a scientologist holiday
20:03:02 <Bike> the anniversary of Dianetics going on sale
20:04:03 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:04:03 <Bike> good luck on the bridge of total freedom, everyone!!!
20:04:12 <Bike> everyone except lambdabot
20:08:09 -!- lambdabot has joined.
20:08:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: uh... may your thetan be light... and fluffy... and echo its quadrillions of years of existence... and recall its... original godly powers?
20:08:37 <elliott> lambdabot was a suppressive person
20:08:59 <elliott> btw this channel is secretly for scientologists, sorry anyone who wanted esoteric programming
20:11:47 <Bike> may your thetans be clear
20:12:55 <nooodl> http://splasho.com/upgoer5/
20:13:01 <nooodl> everyone write a monad tutorial in here
20:13:47 <Bike> "UH OH! YOU HAVE USED A NON-PERMITTED WORD (MONAD)" this might be trouble
20:14:09 <nooodl> use single quotes for definitions
20:14:42 <kmc> UH OH! YOU HAVE USED A NON-PERMITTED WORD (SHITTY)
20:14:44 <kmc> impossible task
20:14:58 <Bike> steele did a talk once where he started out using only monosyllables and built up vocabulary as he went
20:15:03 <Bike> what, shitty must be in the top thousad
20:15:10 <nooodl> Bike: i saw that! it was neat
20:15:12 <kmc> no but 'shit' is
20:15:37 <Bike> a 'monad' is a thing full of shit
20:15:39 <Bike> there does that work
20:15:47 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/al.html
20:16:02 <nooodl> it was like, he's explaining some stuff, and then "I will go on, but first, let me define some more numbers. Forty is four times ten." etc
20:17:20 <Bike> hm, i wonder how simple english wikipedia does at monads
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20:18:02 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: nooodl: Is this it? http://cs.au.dk/~hosc/local/HOSC-12-3-pp221-236.pdf
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20:18:40 <Bike> i don't know, i watched the video
20:18:45 <nooodl> there's a video too yeah
20:18:49 <Bike> ain't got no time for your reading shit
20:18:55 <Bike> is 'ain't' in the top thousand
20:19:00 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
20:20:11 <Bike> There is no page "Monad" on this wiki. John Dee: He wrote Monas Hieroglyphica ("The Hieroglyphic Monad ") in 1564 (about Kabbala and alchemy ). He also wrote the preface to the first ...
20:22:56 <ThatOtherPerson> Yet you are currently communicating with a text-based medium
20:23:09 <nooodl> A 'function' is a thing that turns one or more things into a new thing. (This is called 'applying' a 'function' to its 'arguments'.)
20:23:17 <elliott> yes but i don't read anything anyone here says because it's all shit
20:23:20 <nooodl> A 'functor' is a thing that acts as a wrapper (or 'context') for other things. Anything in the 'Functor' type class knows how to use 'fmap', a 'function' that 'applies' another 'function' onto each thing inside the wrapper.
20:23:40 <ThatOtherPerson> Yet you just read the sh*t I wrote in order to respond to it
20:23:42 <Fiora> kmc: http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/4654974/HITBSecConf2008_-_Malaysia_Videos___Day_2 I found where that guy's talk was but there's no seeds :<
20:23:48 <nooodl> A 'monad' is a 'functor' with two more 'functions' on it: 'return' and 'join'. 'return' gives you the thing you pass it, inside a wrapper that is as simple as possible. 'join' takes a wrapper that has more wrapped things inside it, and puts the inner things inside the outer wrapper.
20:24:00 <Bike> i love wrappers
20:24:04 <elliott> ok i literally can't reply seriously to any statement you make that bowlderises a curse word. it's the most ridiculous thing. i'm sorry
20:24:21 <elliott> bowlderises... what's the proper term for asterisk-based censorship
20:24:22 <Bike> are thatotherperson's messages being passed through a filter
20:24:28 <elliott> it's not strictly "bowlderisation" really
20:24:28 <Bike> bullshiterises
20:24:28 <nooodl> elliott: disemvowels hth
20:25:06 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: is sh*t even a curse word? I mean, it just means excrement
20:25:16 <elliott> is fuck even a curse word? i mean, it just means sex
20:25:42 <Bike> copulate you mothercopulator
20:25:43 <elliott> Fiora: wow where even is .sx
20:25:51 <Fiora> um, I have no idea
20:25:56 <elliott> how long until the pirate bay runs out of countries
20:25:59 <pikhq_> elliott: To Americans, yes.
20:26:14 <Bike> elliott: it's still the netherlands
20:26:21 <Taneb> http://splasho.com/upgoer5/?i=DFNaoJ9hLJDaVTymVTRtp29lqPOiMvO0nTyhMlO3nTIlMFOcMvO5o3HtnTS2MFOuVUEbnJ5aYPO5o3HtL2ShVUE1pz4tnKDtnJ50olOiozHto2LtqTuyp2Htq2y0nPO0nTHtqUyjMFOiMvO0nTHtqTucozptp3E1L2fto250olOcqPOuozDtnJLtrJ91VTuuqzHtLFO3LKxto2LtqUIlozyhMlO0nTyhM3ZtnJ50olOxnJMzMKWyoaDtp29lqUZto2LtqTucozqmVTShMPOuoUAiVT9hMFOiMvO0nTImMFO3nKEbVUEbMFO0rKOyVT9zVUEbMFOznKWmqPOmo3W0VT9zVUEbnJ5aplOmqUIwnlOioaEiVTy0YPO5o3HtL2ShVT1un2Hto25yVT9zVUEbMKAyVUqcq
20:26:21 <Taneb> TttqTuyVUE5pTHto2LtqTuyVUAyL29hMPOmo3W0VT9zVUEbnJ5aplOmqUIwnlOioaEiVTy0YvOHnTIlMFOupzHtoJShrFOiMvO0nTImMF4tITuypzHtnKZto25yVT9zVUEbMKAyVUEbLKDtoTI0plO5o3HtnTS2MFOgLJ55VUEbnJ5apljto25yVUEbLKDtoTI0plO5o3HtoJS5LzHtoz90VTuuqzHtLFO0nTyhMlOuqPOuoTjtLaI0VT1urJWyVTuuqzHto25yYPOuozDto25yVUEbLKDtoTI0plO5o3HtqTSfnlO0olO0nTHtq29loTDtqT8tp2IyVUqbLKDtqTucozptrJ91VTuuqzHu
20:26:28 <Fiora> kmc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfFMKAeFfK8&list=PL5963D975D2395CA3
20:26:31 <Taneb> That permalink thing sucks
20:26:39 <elliott> does it literally just encode what you typed in
20:26:45 <Bike> just encode the entire page into the url
20:27:03 <Taneb> http://goo.gl/DcjX5
20:27:28 <nooodl> imo taneb's explanation is
20:27:29 <Bike> That's a run-on sentence par excellence, sir.
20:27:59 <nooodl> ooh are these [] Maybe and IO
20:28:11 <elliott> hey tim shachaf is doing an "a m a"
20:28:24 <elliott> famous for: designing adventure games, #esoteric
20:28:54 <Taneb> I think that monad tutorial is even almost true
20:29:33 <Bike> https://twitter.com/joeshachaf
20:29:52 <nooodl> Taneb: you should've really used 'monad' more instead of 'one of these'
20:30:04 <Taneb> nooodl, I felt like that was cheating
20:31:29 <elliott> how many of you haven't played the first two monkey island games also (so i can pester you to on a semi-regular basis)
20:31:52 <nooodl> i've only played the first one
20:32:04 <Taneb> elliott, can you send me a copy for N64
20:32:09 <nooodl> elliott: please pester me about playing the second one semi-regularly
20:33:00 <Taneb> Was monkey island the one where you stood on a ball and rolled around
20:33:09 <Bike> that's super monkeyball
20:33:21 <elliott> nooodl: the second one is better than the first
20:33:28 <Taneb> I haven't played that either
20:33:33 <Bike> in monkey island you don't actually play as a monkey, shockingly
20:33:59 <nooodl> elliott: maybe when monqy's around i'll tiredlivestream it
20:34:10 <elliott> nooodl: imo play it when not tired
20:34:20 <elliott> nooodl: also i've been pestering monqy to play them
20:34:24 <elliott> you can't spoil him!! not allowed
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20:34:42 <Bike> who the hell is monqy
20:34:53 <Taneb> That is the beauty of monqy
20:35:16 <boily> looks like non-existing competition. we'll have to settle that.
20:35:25 <elliott> it sort of sucks that CRTs are dead
20:35:35 <elliott> and now everything low-resolution looks like jaggedy crap
20:43:54 <pikhq_> It doesn't help that scalers tend to be implemented really poorly.
20:48:25 <kmc> maybe one day I will accept that I don't have to like everyone and not everyone has to like me and I will stop feeling horribly guilty about this
20:49:23 <elliott> imo people who don't like kmc are lame
20:51:15 <Bike> it's still hard to deal with sucky people.
20:52:14 <Fiora> I try to avoid them and hope for the best
20:59:17 <ion> Coursera Improvisation Class Assignment 01 https://soundcloud.com/jki/coursera-improvisation-01
20:59:28 <Taneb> Nobody doesn't like me
21:01:25 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: btw he was lying to you; his real name is Ulysses hth
21:01:30 <Bike> i'm an athelete!
21:02:44 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, you're the second person who's told me that in two days!
21:07:09 <nooodl> also, wow, this old amiga stuff
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21:28:48 <elliott> Gregor: hi you know about midi right
21:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: is fluidsynth or timidity better
21:29:41 <Gregor> fluidsynth, by far, but it's buggy as fuck.
21:30:04 <Gregor> timidity won't crash on you, but it's not going to get you any better MIDI than you could've gotten out of Windows 95.
21:30:45 <elliott> man i LOVE windows 95's midi though
21:32:19 <pikhq_> Oh man. Get me my wavetable sound card.
21:32:48 <elliott> okay why is scummvm not audioing properly......
21:33:48 <Gregor> elliott: webmidi uses fluidsynth, for whatever that's work.
21:34:09 <elliott> okay not even the pc speaker emulator mode works
21:34:37 <elliott> ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq failed: Permission denied
21:34:47 <elliott> do i need to be in a group i'm not or something
21:35:08 <elliott> i heard something about you don't need the audio group with systemd or something
21:35:16 <nooodl> hmmm that means stuff like, for (c = 'a'; c <= 'z'; c++), is undefined behaviour
21:35:30 <elliott> nooodl: digits are guaranteed to be in order though
21:35:34 <elliott> implementation defined behaviour
21:36:03 <Gregor> <elliott> do i need to be in a group i'm not or something <-- probably
21:36:18 <Gregor> On Debian it's "audio"
21:36:45 <elliott> but i swear when i upgraded and systemd came in
21:36:50 <elliott> stuff said to remove your account from all groups like that
21:36:54 <elliott> because they're unnecessary now?????
21:37:11 <elliott> imo what's the REAL story, alsa was an inside job
21:37:19 <elliott> Gregor: Adding your user to groups (sys, disk, lp, network, video, audio, optical, storage, scanner, power, etc.) is not necessary for most use cases with systemd. The groups can even cause some functionality to break. For example, the audio group will break fast user switching and allows applications to block software mixing. Every PAM login provides a logind session, which for a local session will give you permissions via POSIX ACLs on audio/video
21:37:50 <kmc> elliott: alsa was the reichstag fire that brought pulseaudio to power
21:40:08 <kmc> it's truly inspiring how quickly i can demolish a bag of candy
21:40:24 <kmc> i'm teaching children everywhere to succeed
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21:42:59 <nooodl> youtube videos stopped loading
21:43:10 <nooodl> maybe im getting arrested because of all that illegal content in my search results
21:48:19 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/video/time-announces-new-version-of-magazine-aimed-at-ad,17950/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
22:00:00 <kmc> utm_source=butt
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22:27:33 <boily> what is a flanimal?
22:29:58 <JesseH> That's gonna be my new language...
22:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> "." is a brainfuck derivative where the only instruction is .
22:31:00 <JesseH> If you implement it it means less work for me.
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22:31:24 <JesseH> Phantom_Hoover, each . stands for a byte in memory
22:31:34 <JesseH> The only memory you get is 100 .'s
22:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> upon execution, . outputs the ascii code corresponding to the current tape cell
22:32:16 <JesseH> what about white space ^_^
22:32:39 <JesseH> I do want to start implementing a new, stupider language soon.
22:32:58 <JesseH> I don't really see a need to continue though :P
22:33:08 <JesseH> Phantom_Hoover, I was thinking something like...
22:33:33 <JesseH> but I'm sure a language is like that already
22:33:42 <JesseH> I need to think of something better
22:35:37 <boily> peruse, ponder, produce, perpetrate.
22:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're going to make a boring language to claim a funny name, might as well do it with gusto
22:36:30 <JesseH> I'm going to make a language do EVERYTHING except for what you tell it not to do.
22:38:39 <boily> look at the wiki, think about what you have not seen yet, do it, start from beginning.
22:39:36 <boily> and if you're thinking about doing a bf derivative, remember that you have seen it. very seen it.
22:40:02 <JesseH> I don't even want to learn brainfuck because its everywhere
22:40:09 <JesseH> Why is there 10000 bf derivatives
22:40:18 <pikhq_> Because it's really easy to make one.
22:40:31 <JesseH> Okay well, VIVA REVOLUTION
22:40:38 <JesseH> follow me if you want to live!(away from bf)
22:40:45 <Phantom_Hoover> will you back the Hoover Final Solution for bf derivatives
22:41:46 <JesseH> so confused...not sure if I'm tired, or too much interested in code to pay close attention
22:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> listing the name, what they rename the instructions to, the author, and some implementation
22:42:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can just have one unified implementation for all of them
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22:42:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah but that would kind of detract from the mockery
22:43:02 <Phantom_Hoover> put at the top "any of these languages can be implemented with <trivial program>" and then have all the vanity interpreters the authors write below it
22:43:54 <JesseH> Maybe a language that was made to be used for a very specific purpose :P
22:45:43 <boily> the Great Unified Theory of Brainfuck Derivatives.
22:46:07 <boily> (with sparkles and shiny equations and morphisms with sequins)
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22:46:36 <JesseH> Maybe a language made for bashing brainfuck
22:47:37 <boily> ah no. the original is quite good.
22:48:45 <JesseH> yeah but it's just...a turn off that theres so many derivatives.
22:48:57 <JesseH> esoteric language? like brainfuck?
22:49:30 <JesseH> maybe it's just that it is that awesome @.@
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00:08:56 <Sgeo> "Contrary to popular belief, there are people out there using Smalltalk on the web. Two of them."
00:09:31 <Sgeo> http://www.nextthing.org/archives/2005/08/07/fun-with-http-headers
00:11:17 <Sgeo> Apparently Opera supported Cookies 2 in 2005. Wonder if it still does.
00:11:33 <Bike> is cookies 2 a lack of cookies
00:12:52 <Sgeo> 'Why anyone would think to themselves, Gee, if a massively scalable caching service running on hundreds of geographically distributed computers cant handle the load of people wanting to look at my site, Ill just have them bounce people back at me, I dont know. Masochism perhaps?'
00:13:18 <Bike> haha, dublin core
00:15:00 <Bike> also wow someone using purl
00:17:20 <Sgeo> I should start using it again or something
00:20:24 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8711584/x-pad-avoid-browser-bug-header-added-by-apache
00:22:14 <Bike> how very silly.
00:23:18 <Sgeo> I wonder if any of these easter egg headers end up being a security risk
00:23:45 <Sgeo> Imagine if some server was outputting ... something interesting, just because it could, and then that interesting thing ends up in a spec
00:24:39 <Sgeo> As in, maybe in some language, Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * is a really hilarious joke, so someone back in 2003 or so put it in their response
00:25:07 <kmc> dumber things have happened but i can't think of one offhand
00:25:50 <Sgeo> Well, that picqued my interest
00:26:23 <Sgeo> I don't know how to spell picqued
00:26:24 <Bike> none of the headers on the page seem particularly vulnerable to that
00:26:36 <Sgeo> picqed? piqued?
00:26:36 <Bike> unless we standardize limericks at some point?
00:26:59 <Sgeo> I think it's piqued. No red squigglies.
00:27:05 <Sgeo> squigglies gets the squigglies.
00:27:20 <Bike> YOU BASTARDS JUST HAD TO DRAW ME BACK IN
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00:30:38 <Sgeo> That's certainly a real word, at least.
00:31:24 <Bike> it means something else
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00:32:08 <Bike> i guess it's 'piqued'
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00:38:34 <Sgeo> Are there encryption schemes in which keys can be of a certain length or any arbitrary length larger?
00:39:02 <Sgeo> (Hmm, how to exclude one-time pads from being a valid answer...)
00:39:41 <Bike> are you implying one time pads aren't practical or
00:41:29 <kmc> you can periodically rotate keys
00:41:39 <Sgeo> A better and less insulting way to exclude OTPs, for the reason I want to exclude them: can be of a certain length or arbitrary length larger, where the only reason to increase key size is to increase security and not as a result of neccessity due to larger amounts of material to encrypt or decrypt
00:42:36 <kmc> there are a lot of systems where an actual encryption key is derived from an arbitrary-length passphrase or such
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00:44:35 <Sgeo> Just wanted to be sure that there wasn't any value in the scheme that some guy at tech club came up with
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00:45:46 <Sgeo> (Consisting of randomizing the order that a bunch of schemes are done in)
00:45:59 <Sgeo> And amount, and which schemes are used
00:46:36 <nooodl> hey i did something pretty cool https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15495351/r909.zip
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00:46:58 <nooodl> it's a semi-faithful recreation of revolution 909 (the daft punk song)
00:47:03 <JesseH> I hate downloading zips but I'de love to take a look
00:47:42 <nooodl> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15495351/r909.mod unzipped it's just over 100 kB which isn't as cool
00:47:49 <JesseH> nooodl, sounds sweet so far
00:48:36 <JesseH> I'll make a language that is designed to make music.
00:49:32 <nooodl> something like vlc should be able to play it
00:49:42 <Sgeo> machine code : asm :: .mod : JesseH's language?
00:49:44 <Lymia> Make a brainfuck variant.
00:49:51 <Lymia> That outputs music.
00:50:02 <Lymia> By directly interpreting how the tape pointer moves
00:50:06 <Sgeo> I meant, maybe JesseH should just use .mod as the language
00:50:12 <Lymia> With no other interface
00:50:15 <kmc> http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html
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00:52:55 <nooodl> wow what, vlc totally screws it up
00:52:56 <Bike> music's always been based on modular arithmetic, really
00:53:04 <nooodl> guess you'll need modplug or something
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01:08:39 <Sgeo> 'In 2008, an iPhone app called Pull My Finger was one of the most popular apps in Apple's App Store, purchased over 50,000 times in less than one week. It allowed users to pull a virtual finger, activating the sound. The phrase is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart over the use of the phrase.'
01:10:51 -!- Bike has set topic: #esoteric is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://code.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:11:04 -!- Bike has set topic: #esoteric is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:13:03 <Sgeo> What's the difference between those two topics?
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02:05:15 <Sgeo> Huh. Watchmen is DC?
02:05:22 <Sgeo> I thought it was just... its own universe or something
02:05:32 <Sgeo> (Still haven't started reading, but received it today)
02:08:39 <Bike> It's /published/ by DC, that doesn't mean it's part of the universe with superman and all.
02:23:07 <Bike> it's their "Vertigo" imprint, that they use for weird stuff. iirc.
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02:52:22 <pikhq_> The "Vertigo" imprint is for stuff that is for "more mature audiences".
02:52:31 <pikhq_> Regardless of whether or not it's in the DC verse.
02:52:41 <pikhq_> For instance, Sandman is in the DC verse, but it's Vertigo.
02:57:47 <kmc> writing tip: Every paragraph should be a run-on sentence (i.e. a sentence (like this one) with many (i.e. more than 20) words) and if you (meaning the author) need to define any terms (i.e. words which the reader (meaning someone reading your document) may not know) then just tack them on (as a parenthetical (i.e. in parentheses)) at the first use of the term (also, if you have any unrelated further thoughts, tack them onto the end of
02:59:15 <Bike> it's cool how chomsky says language is recursive and then i can't handle more than one level of parenthetical if it's not at the end
03:00:23 <kmc> i hear that german is a stack based language where all the verbs go at the end
03:00:25 <kmc> or something
03:00:53 <mnoqy> i've heard that too
03:01:06 * kmc is currently trying to read a document written in this style and stab stab stab stab stab
03:01:13 <augur> Bike: the thing is, right
03:01:39 <augur> that the REAL problem with embedding is when its subject relatives
03:01:49 <augur> when the subject has a relative clause
03:01:53 <augur> in which the subject has a relative clause
03:02:29 <augur> (the man that (the boy that ate pizza) met) is tall
03:02:37 <Bike> center embedding is fun as hell yes
03:02:56 <augur> one level deeper, bad
03:02:56 <kmc> maybe the person who wrote this document is a lot smarter than me (likely) and can handle more recursion
03:03:02 <augur> but its because the embedding is in the subject
03:03:13 <augur> put that embedding anywhere else and its fine, or at least MUCH better
03:03:31 <augur> and interestingly, you get significantly better at these bad ones when you're around people who use them
03:03:36 <augur> its a processing issue somehow.
03:03:41 <Bike> the man that the boy that the girl at the store saw met is tall
03:03:46 <augur> also very interestingly, japanese MUST use center embedding
03:03:50 <augur> because its a headfinal language
03:03:54 <augur> and they have no problems with it at all
03:04:25 <augur> notice also that we have a lot of leftward WH dependencies there
03:04:38 <augur> saw looks left for its object "the boy"
03:04:47 <augur> met looks left for its object "the man"
03:04:58 <augur> there are a LOT of leftward dependencies as a whole too
03:05:14 <augur> all of the verb ones are leftward here
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03:05:19 <augur> which is really rare for english
03:05:30 <augur> so theres probably some kind of parsing optimization thats happened
03:05:40 <pikhq_> But utterly mundane in Japanese...
03:05:59 <augur> center embedding in japanese is par for the course
03:06:27 <augur> i mean, despite SVO and OVS word order options, you still get lots of center embedding.
03:07:00 <pikhq_> And when you use SOV... Yeah.
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03:08:01 <augur> S (((O V) O V) O) V
03:08:07 <augur> or something like that
03:08:11 <augur> find for japanese.
03:08:32 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's kinda how the parsing goes.
03:09:01 <lifthrasiir> augur: I think Japaneses use the same strategy as left-recursive parsers?
03:09:08 <pikhq_> ((O V) S) ((O V) O) V too.
03:09:19 <augur> noone knows how parsing works in natural language :P
03:09:32 <Fiora> S (((O V) O V) O) V is german too, right?
03:10:04 <lifthrasiir> FYI Korean is similar (Japanese and Korean shares the common grammatical structure)
03:10:13 <Fiora> or I guess maybe also S V (((O V) O V) O) V
03:10:21 <Bike> clearly i shouldn't pretend to know shit about linguistics in the future
03:10:25 <pikhq_> Yeah, Korean and Japanese have stunningly similar grammar from what I've seen.
03:10:56 <pikhq_> Probably the best argument for them being (distantly) related.
03:11:02 <augur> german is maybe SOV
03:11:10 <augur> except in main clauses where its XV...
03:11:14 <lifthrasiir> augur: is it a combination of SOV and SVO?
03:11:15 <augur> verb second with some focal thing first
03:11:28 <augur> and except for subclauses which are after the verb/noun
03:11:56 <augur> lifthrasiir: not quite
03:12:04 <augur> its a V2 language, which means verb second
03:12:09 <augur> the "topic" comes first
03:12:11 <augur> then everything else
03:12:17 <augur> but everything else looks SOV
03:12:34 <augur> really tho its probably SVO underlyingly
03:12:56 <lifthrasiir> I've learned German a bit (and almost completely forgotten it now) and I think I've seen both structures
03:13:20 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/4J7Il0m.jpg stupid future
03:14:07 <Bike> that's not as good as http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Koverto-kun-krakozjabroj.png and you know it
03:14:52 <kmc> they're both good ok
03:14:54 <kmc> in different ways
03:15:00 <kmc> > iterate show ""
03:15:11 <kmc> lambdabot you're the worst
03:15:20 <Sgeo> > take 20 $ iterate show ""
03:15:27 <kmc> lambdabot needs to go to rehab or something
03:15:35 <augur> Sgeo: oi! this isnt #haskell
03:15:57 <Sgeo> ) <'Nor is it #jsoftware'
03:15:57 <jconn> Sgeo: +--------------------+
03:15:57 <jconn> Sgeo: |Nor is it #jsoftware|
03:15:57 <jconn> Sgeo: +--------------------+
03:16:06 <Bike> i'm confused by this idea that this isn't #haskell
03:16:13 <kmc> #j-erkoffs
03:16:23 <Bike> oh shit you're right
03:16:24 <augur> its where we walk about implementing haskell in brainfuck
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03:16:53 <kmc> > iterate (concatMap (let f '&' = "&"; f x = [x] in f)) "fish & chips"
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03:16:56 <lambdabot> ["fish & chips","fish & chips","fish &amp; chips","fish &amp;am...
03:17:00 <Bike> i need to come up with better jokes.
03:17:03 <augur> Bike: youll fit in here nicely :)
03:24:57 <Bike> > iterate show ""
03:24:59 <lambdabot> ["","\"\"","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\...
03:25:11 <Bike> why didn't that... but... buh.
03:26:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:27:42 <Bike> did i do something wrong gregor
03:28:02 <Gregor> Bike: If the topic looks unchanged to you, your Unicode support sucks :)
03:29:22 <pikhq_> I'm not seeing the difference.
03:30:11 <pikhq_> I'm wondering if it's Unicode breakage I know about, or Unicode breakage I don't know about. :)
03:33:29 <Sgeo> http://www.byond.com/members/Sgeo?command=view_post&post=135032&first_unread=1
03:33:46 <Gregor> pikhq_: I put a Unicode right-to-left override at the beginning.
03:34:00 <pikhq_> Ah, the Unicode breakage I know about then.
03:34:07 <Sgeo> I... don't know if I rediscovered that concept, that you still need to know something about a 'new type', or if it's this thread that made me realize
03:34:42 <Bike> Sgeo: "better implemented using eval()" lolololol
03:40:36 <Sgeo> I should relearn DM
03:42:59 <kmc> dark magic?
03:43:05 <Sgeo> Really a lot of what it provides could be done by libraries... well, and a client that knows how to talk to the library
03:43:16 <Sgeo> http://www.byond.com/developer/articles/whitepaper
03:43:27 <Bike> i have a copy of some grimoire somewhere, it's amazingly boring
03:43:30 <Sgeo> Don't need an entire new programming language for this
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03:43:39 <Bike> you're supposed to start out by meditating for hours straight
04:03:13 <kmc> "An integer, in the context of computing, is a variable capable of representing a real number with no fractional part."
04:08:13 <kmc> oh it's copumpkin's birthday?
04:08:21 <kmc> happy birthday copumpkin
04:12:01 <kmc> bropumpkins before hopumpkins
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04:17:48 <Sgeo> Just saw the word rebus
04:18:03 <Sgeo> Reminds me of the only other place I have seen that word -- a computer game for teaching math
04:18:15 <Sgeo> I shoudl look for that came
04:19:38 <kmc> rebuses before jebuses
05:01:25 <Sgeo> 'Second Life, Cloud Party and Virtual Paradise allow you to reserve a unique name for free. Additionally, none of them suffer from the lowercase L and I impersonation issue that has been present since 1995.'
05:03:09 <Sgeo> In a comment on FB
05:03:10 <Sgeo> 'Telegrams have been going missing for over a decade. Chrispeg has never been able to fix it. I've lost thousands of telegrams due to AW's bugs. AWI is aware of these issues but never does anything about it.'
06:32:29 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
06:33:03 <Bike> that wasn't very helpful, lambdabot
06:33:45 <FreeFull> Integers are integers in Haskell
06:34:14 <FreeFull> Proof there are infinitely many Integers:
06:34:23 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
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06:44:09 <kmc> that clears it all up
06:45:59 <oklopol> ##jesseh is how this channel should look
06:47:09 <oklopol> JesseH made an esolang called derplang. his channel ##jesseh is full of discussion about it.
06:47:33 <oklopol> (the language is a simplified basic except you write everything on one line)
06:47:59 <oklopol> well depending on what xth part of the program means
06:58:48 <elliott> i will never understand channels named after people
07:00:29 <ion> That’s why you’re not on #elliott and the rest of us are.
07:01:37 <Vorpal> [17118.996066] pool[12036]: segfault at 7f4003a062d0 ip 00007f4002cf507d sp 00007f40002fdc60 error 4 in libc-2.13.so[7f4002c7e000+180000] <-- isn't it fun with segfaults you have zero clue what they refer to
07:02:26 <kmc> go digging
07:02:38 <Vorpal> can't find a binary named "pool" anywhere on my system
07:02:54 <Vorpal> not in /usr, /lib, /bin or /sbin anyway
07:04:03 <Bike> the official elliott channel. all elliott, all the time.
07:04:13 <Vorpal> Hm, processes can modify what shows up in ps aux I know, but is the name listed in dmesg the modified value?
07:04:21 <Vorpal> If so I probably have no chance of finding it
07:06:39 <kmc> yeah, i don't know
07:06:57 <kmc> also the ip value is probably from a random offset
07:07:01 <Vorpal> It is at times like this when a locate database would be helpful, I don't have one, since usually the indexing is more annoying and I very rarely use the feature...
07:08:14 <elliott> has kmc bought me a computer yet
07:08:52 <kmc> no why would i
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07:09:33 <elliott> pretty sure that's your new job!
07:10:11 <kmc> does it pay
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07:10:55 <elliott> i'll pay you however much the computer costs
07:11:12 <kmc> what if i tell you the computer costs £10,000
07:11:26 <Vorpal> kmc, cheap for an industrial computer!
07:11:31 <elliott> i'd be upset you exploited me like that
07:11:36 <elliott> i know you're a better person than that
07:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, why not buy one yourself?
07:12:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i'd have to pick one
07:12:16 <elliott> and i'm officially retired from thinking about computers ever again
07:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well then I would suggest kmc gets you a rack mounted server.
07:12:43 <elliott> my criteria are: it should be good; it should annoy me less than this one does; i should be able to run ghc on it
07:13:04 <Vorpal> elliott, should it be portable or not?
07:13:57 <elliott> small computers are certainly less fussy and it's not inconceivable i'd want to take it places
07:14:00 <elliott> on the other hand, screen real estate
07:14:01 <Vorpal> kmc, okay, get a rack mounted server and put dual GTX Titans in it!
07:14:39 <Fiora> um, I guess a related question, I've noticed after ~8 months my laptop has started to accumulate small bits of screen damage probably from me carting it to work every single day and it not being really designed for that
07:14:46 <Vorpal> kmc, also a SAN solution with SSDs in RAID10
07:14:52 <Fiora> is there some way to avoid that happening when carting it around, or is it pretty much going to happen?
07:14:59 <kmc> i saw a sony laptop at the store that had SSDs in RAID0
07:15:03 <Fiora> and like. are there after-market screen replacements or does one just have to replace the laptop <_>
07:15:27 <kmc> usually the manufacturer can do a replacement, or you can buy a new panel on ebay and do it yourself
07:15:27 <Vorpal> Fiora, the screen area itself? Or the back of it?
07:15:50 <Vorpal> I would never ever use RAID0 for anything
07:15:55 <kmc> for super speed
07:15:59 <Fiora> Vorpal: um.... well like, it looks like the damage is ""behind"" the screen surface?
07:16:02 <elliott> Fiora: i think you can get replacement stuff (but i don't know anything about it)
07:16:18 <kmc> I think sony basically started with the idea "if we made a $3,000 laptop, some people will buy it" and worked backwards from there
07:16:30 <Vorpal> Fiora, so not on the back on the laptop then? The backside of the monitor with all the logos and so on
07:16:41 <kmc> with ThinkPads it is pretty easy to get replacement part numbers and repair manuals
07:16:57 <Fiora> Vorpal: no, like, the screen, the thing that makes light and displays stuff
07:17:11 <Vorpal> well I guess replacement would be needed. not sure how to protect against it
07:17:16 <Vorpal> get a toughbook maybe?
07:17:21 <kmc> it had lots of blue LEDs of course
07:17:38 <kmc> Fiora: what does the screen damage look like?
07:18:19 <Fiora> kmc: um... in one place there's what looks sort of like a spec of black dirt behind the screen (but not like dead pixels)
07:18:23 <Fiora> like it doesn't look pixelly
07:18:33 <Fiora> in another there's like a slightly dark spot a few mm wide
07:18:37 <kmc> i haven't had that happen with my thinkpads, I don't think
07:18:44 <Vorpal> I haven't seen that either
07:18:53 <Fiora> it's probably my fault for carting this thing around 30 minutes a day every day
07:18:55 <kmc> i have cracked LCD panels but that's huge and bovious
07:18:58 <kmc> obvious too
07:19:09 <Fiora> and probably doing dumb things like dropping it because I'm a klutz
07:19:10 <kmc> bovious, adj: of or pertaining to cows
07:19:17 <Fiora> also the toughbook looks ridiculously heavy
07:19:47 <Vorpal> My LCD panels usually just end up getting dimmer over time. And usually for my desktop the backlight fails. Every single LCD that failed on me, it was the backlight.
07:20:16 <Vorpal> Fiora, well yeah, but they are durable
07:20:28 <kmc> Fiora: what manufacturer is your laptop from?
07:20:54 <Fiora> it's a sager np9150
07:20:54 <Vorpal> I know only one guy who managed to break a toughbook.
07:22:03 <Vorpal> And he works as an ambulance driver, so rather rough conditions
07:24:11 <kmc> how did it happen
07:24:34 <Vorpal> kmc, he managed to drop it about 2.5 meters, and the HDD popped right out of it.
07:25:15 <Vorpal> yeah, that shouldn't usually happen with those
07:25:43 <Vorpal> kmc, not rugged enough I say, I work with far more rugged hardware daily.
07:26:13 <Vorpal> (industrial computers for mining equipment)
07:27:04 <Vorpal> (they are often in conditions with high temperature, high humidity and salty water)
07:27:22 <Bike> oh yeah well I work with computers in SPACE!!
07:27:27 <Bike> laptops made of nebulae
07:28:38 <Vorpal> Bike, what is the IP classing?
07:29:19 <elliott> Bike: you work with computers inside of cows
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07:30:35 <Bike> elliott: have you ever been inside a cow? pretty rough conditions imo
07:30:47 <elliott> i was born inside of a cow
07:30:51 <Bike> what ip classing what are you talking about
07:30:57 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code
07:31:13 <Vorpal> also bbl really, have to leave for a while
07:32:02 <Bike> man i don't know if i'll ever get used to people believing things i say
07:35:05 <elliott> it was Vorpal's attempt at a joke.
07:36:45 <Bike> that's some next-level shit.
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08:22:16 <Vorpal> My GPU fan decided to jump to silly level after the resuming from suspend to ram. What
08:22:23 <Vorpal> Sensor 0: Temperature - 40.00 C
08:22:32 <Vorpal> I'll try rebooting I guess
08:22:45 <Fiora> that happens to me sometimes too, like when the battery mysteriously won't charge or the fan is stuck on max or things
08:22:48 <Fiora> I have no idea why
08:22:53 <Vorpal> Fiora, this is on a desktop though
08:23:02 <Fiora> oh, geez, even weirder
08:23:22 <Vorpal> well, I guess I'll have to reboot, can't see any other option...
08:26:40 <Vorpal> Sensor 0: Temperature - 41.00 C
08:27:25 <Vorpal> If you want a linux computer that actually works perfectly, either get a server or a thinkpad with intel graphics and intel wifi
08:28:44 <Vorpal> This computer can't even properly suspend to disk, it just doesn't work. Neither in windows nor linux.
08:29:10 <Vorpal> I would assume suspend to disk was easier than suspend to ram wrt. hardware dependencies
08:29:39 <Vorpal> it is just save ram to disk, shut down, on boot check if we should load ram from disk
08:29:49 <Vorpal> but no, seems it isn't that easy
08:30:20 <Vorpal> Also why does distcc always fail to start at boot: Fri May 10 10:25:11 2013: [....] Starting Distributed Compiler Daemon: distccd[....] /etc/init.d/distcc: start failed with error code 102 ...^[[?25l^[[?1c^[7^[[1G[^[[33mwarn^[[39;49m^[8^[[?25h^[[?0c ^[[33m(warning).^[[39;49m
08:30:26 <Vorpal> works fine to start it after boot
08:31:24 <Vorpal> but network is up at that point
08:32:38 <Vorpal> also yes the color codes are messed up in /var/log/boot
08:32:48 <Fiora> does it give a more detailed error or something?
08:33:01 <Vorpal> nope, "error code 102" is as far as I got
08:33:07 <Fiora> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-3621960.html#3621960
08:33:09 <Vorpal> since it work after boot I don't know how to debug it
08:33:15 <Fiora> apparently it puts more things in the log?
08:33:22 <Fiora> "/var/log/everything/current"
08:33:24 <Vorpal> mmm gentoo, on debian though
08:33:38 * Fiora knows nothing about distros... and okay probably nothing about linux
08:33:38 <Vorpal> I guess /var/log/messages for me
08:34:06 <Vorpal> yay /var/log/distccd.log
08:34:22 <Vorpal> distccd[9483] (dcc_remove_pid) Warning: failed to remove pid file /var/run/distccd.pid: Permission denied
08:34:22 <Vorpal> distccd[3196] (dcc_listen_by_addr) ERROR: bind of 192.168.1.65:3632 failed: Cannot assign requested address
08:34:22 <Vorpal> distccd[6821] (dcc_remove_pid) Warning: failed to remove pid file /var/run/distccd.pid: Permission denied
08:34:22 <Vorpal> distccd[13778] (dcc_remove_pid) Warning: failed to remove pid file /var/run/distccd.pid: Permission denied
08:34:22 <Vorpal> distccd[3128] (dcc_listen_by_addr) ERROR: bind of 192.168.1.65:3632 failed: Cannot assign requested address
08:34:38 <Vorpal> why can't it assign that address? I have no idea, the network should be up
08:34:50 <Fiora> someone in the thread was talking about a --listen thing or something
08:34:55 <Vorpal> why can't it remove the pid file? I have no idea
08:35:41 <Vorpal> yeah it is configured in /etc/default/distcc on Debian
08:36:17 <Vorpal> and my listen address is correct
08:36:38 <Vorpal> I don't want it on IPv6, so I need to restrict which IP
08:37:03 <Fiora> maybe it's a dhcp thing?
08:37:38 <Vorpal> Hm, I could try switching to static IP, the thing is, /etc/init.d/distcc lists network as a dependency
08:37:50 <Vorpal> maybe it only depends on part of the network? Say IPv6 for exampl
08:38:39 <Vorpal> "$network low level networking (ethernet card; may imply PCMCIA running)"
08:38:47 <Vorpal> well that wasn't helpful at all
08:39:23 <Vorpal> I guess static ip might help if that is the issue
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08:40:00 <Vorpal> or figure out how to say "I need eth0 up and running and IP assigned to it
08:40:25 <Vorpal> (I do have "always same IP" from DHCP, so that isn't the issue)
08:41:18 <Vorpal> or I could just edit the script to force it to run last
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09:39:15 <olsner> "In brief, the main external visible features of the cow are: two lookers, two hookers, four stander-uppers, four hanger-downers, and a swishy-wishy."
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13:43:32 <oerjan> <elliott> hey tim shachaf is doing an "a m a"
13:43:46 <lambdabot> Expecting two more arguments to `a'
13:43:46 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: a m a
13:43:46 <lambdabot> In the expression: undefined :: a m a
13:44:50 <oerjan> darn i was hoping for an inscrutable kind error
13:46:48 <oerjan> hm topic is backwards but link points correctly, i smell a right-to-left marker
13:47:13 <JesseH> Anyone working on a eso lang? :D
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14:46:40 <Taneb> Anyone know how to send a pull request on github from the command line?
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14:49:19 <JesseH> https://help.github.com/articles/using-pull-requests
14:49:27 <JesseH> Why do it from terminal?
14:49:39 <elliott> wow you managed to be even less helpful than me
14:50:16 <JesseH> You sorta just said "carefully" unless I'm hallucinating.
14:50:38 <JesseH> I have him a link of how the documentation tells you to do it, hinting that there might not be a way to do it from terminal.
14:51:10 <elliott> Taneb: anyway i think there is a "hub" command line tool thing that lets you do it
14:52:46 <Taneb> JesseH: telling someone to take care because it could be difficult is a lot more helpful than saying "give up now, there's an easier way to do it"
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16:33:20 <oerjan> elliott: catseye.tc has expired; i changed the catseye template to use the wayback template, i hope this doesn't break too much.
16:38:10 <oerjan> (by which i mean, WE ARE ALL DOOMED HTH)
16:39:16 <Taneb> oerjan, web-routes and hamlet are almost but not quite compatible what do i do
16:40:09 <Taneb> But I'm all out of up!
16:40:23 <Taneb> And even if I had any up, I wouldn't know to whom to give it!
16:41:59 <oerjan> now you are doomed, of course. hth.
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16:48:46 <Taneb> (the only difference is in web-routes there's something that's Maybe Text when in hamlet (and all the other shakespeare templating things) it is just Text)
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16:52:45 <Taneb> elliott, now that oerjan has left who should I complain to
17:07:31 <Taneb> On an unrelated note, I believe that in base 30, 1/11 has a ten-digit long repeating part
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17:12:36 <Taneb> Possibly I should complain to the Yesod guys
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18:39:54 <HackEgo> \ bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
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18:40:19 <Taneb> Something looks wrong with that
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18:40:38 <Gregor> I have no idea what you're talking about.
18:40:54 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Fri May 10 19:40:53
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18:59:33 <ion> More potential esoteric language names based on movie spam bots. http://hpaste.org/browse?author=Swarovski
19:00:40 <HackEgo> trude alpl binata stre-cal anothesquid grave gechang squatre zot tri bam128 brain subleq ext() goto++ billgolfscriptimefuck-2d code lazy twist dobelta
19:01:08 <fizzie> billgolfscriptimefuck-2d sounds like quite the language.
19:04:44 <boily> the vorpal phone of talking, now with 12.5% more communication*
19:04:47 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:07:54 <VorpalPhone> So i saw boily highlight me, then crash...
19:08:31 <boily> <boily> the vorpal phone of talking, now with 12.5% more communication*
19:09:05 <boily> in any case, you should not pay attention to my ramblings, especially on Fridays.
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19:10:48 <VorpalPhone_> Which sucks, since technically I'm still on the same network.
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19:16:01 <Gregor> VorpalPhone: How's AndChat's Unicode support?
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19:42:50 <nooodl> ugh i need something to write in haskell
19:43:10 <boily> nooodl: implement something with T.30 and T.37. bonus points for T.38.
19:43:49 <boily> ITU fax protocols.
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20:00:57 <VorpalPhone> boily: hah, is there a haskell library for that?
20:01:38 <boily> VorpalPhone: not to my knowledge.
20:02:06 <boily> yep. hoogle returns nothig for t30, nor fax.
20:02:26 <boily> I think it'd be very interesting to have something for that in haskell.
20:02:42 <boily> that's a question I've been asking myself daily for the past two weeks.
20:02:59 <VorpalPhone> Can't remember when I last saw a fax machine...
20:04:31 <boily> current work project.
20:05:02 <boily> it needs to have a fax. which is very stupid, considering the context in which the stuff is going to be launched.
20:05:09 <boily> because clients asked for it!
20:05:53 <VorpalPhone> Oh, please tell as much as you can about this, it sounds entertaining...
20:06:13 <boily> well, you know you can make calls and stuff when you're on a plane, right?
20:06:49 <boily> these phones no one uses in the back of the seats?
20:07:31 <boily> well, it shouldn't have changed much since. we're trying to make some very old and buggy and flaky technology float. ISDN, T.30, stuff like that.
20:07:50 <boily> oh, never flewn in a cessna. the smalles I went in was a DH-8.
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20:08:30 <VorpalPhone> The plane i flew in 12 years ago was pretty small too, turboprop
20:10:57 <VorpalPhone> So you say there are faxes on some planes?
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20:18:58 <boily> @tell VorpalPhone sorry, was out fetching the test faxes.
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20:59:49 <Taneb> Faxes still exist!?
21:00:55 <boily> they do. they're evil. we're sending at 7200 bauds on our test runs.
21:01:13 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/864436de962d5e310ea87f0ccf9fb1c0/tumblr_mmhygqyvz11rckw3lo1_1280.jpg
21:09:29 <boily> we're using an old antiquity at the moment. it tried to feed three pages at the same time. the end result was printed on an 8½ × 14.
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23:33:48 <Sgeo> Fuck recruiters.
23:34:14 <Sgeo> The promised raise? I haven't seen it.
23:34:25 <Sgeo> Going to go ask about it
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23:40:02 <JesseH> Sgeo, NEVER TRUST A RECRUITER
23:40:08 <JesseH> Get every promise they say in writing
23:40:21 <JesseH> Did you not ask anyone before you decided to talk to those salesmen?
23:41:12 <Sgeo> They made a show of good faith by having me sign 3 contracts, the latter two contracts with the higher rate and marked with the date that it was supposed to take effect.
23:41:23 <Sgeo> *tried to make a show of good faith
23:41:38 <JesseH> and you signed what they save you X_x
23:42:00 <Sgeo> I can quit with 5 days notice if I have to.
23:43:35 <JesseH> Is the military what you want to do?
23:43:40 <JesseH> Where are you located?
23:44:07 <kmc> Sgeo: isn't the contract with the new rate enforceable? but it's probably at-will employment so they can just fire you
23:49:18 <Sgeo> contracts with new rate should be enforcable, signed pay schedule I was emailed is not.
23:49:41 <Sgeo> (According to contract(s), other agreements aren't... I forget the exact phrasing)
23:51:02 <kmc> promised raises in at-will employment are kind of weird
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00:01:35 <Sgeo> o.O http://yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com/post/47389305425/steven-moffat
00:03:05 <Fiora> yeah, he's kind of a douche :/
00:04:58 <Bike> oh thank god, that's not about the other thing.
00:08:12 <Bike> sexists are hard to stomach, yes
00:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> publicly shaming people as 'sexists' is... actually kind of hypocritical?
00:09:09 <Fiora> how... how is that hypocritical?
00:09:20 <Fiora> if someone publicly acts like an asshole, you're allowed to comment on it
00:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover> because if you're going to say that misogyny etc. are societally ingrained structures then you can't really go around making individual moral judgements about it
00:10:28 <Fiora> that doesn't even make any sense
00:10:41 <Bike> 'well, the nazis were a social structure, no individual germans were racist'
00:10:52 <Bike> no you are not
00:11:16 <Bike> and don't put 'sexist' in quotes, come on, he hired a chick based on her looks and bragged about it
00:11:26 <Fiora> just because a lot of people are jerks doesn't absolve jerks of being jerks
00:11:29 <Sgeo> If people 150 years ago were racist, would you say that each individual person had moral failings, if it was common at the time
00:11:35 <Sgeo> I think is what Phantom_Hoover is trying to express
00:11:48 <Bike> i would, generally
00:11:56 <Fiora> people were racist 150 years ago, and people 150 years ago called them out on their racism, just like they do today
00:11:59 <Bike> besides, it doesn't even say 'moffat is sexist'
00:12:02 <Bike> it's just a list of shitty things
00:12:04 <Fiora> it just literally lists
00:12:25 <kmc> you don't have to think of it as an individual moral judgement, but we all have a responsibility to strive to be better than the shitty things we've inherited from society
00:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the problem is that when you call most people sexist they react by mentally comparing it to this mental image of, like, some slavering, wantonly misogynistic old man
00:12:39 <Fiora> they're not even calling him sexist
00:12:44 <Bike> that's a problem, yes
00:12:52 <kmc> i'm trying to cultivate the skill of calling people out on things in a friendly way which doesn't suggest they meant to be malicious
00:12:53 <Bike> i don't know what that has to do with anything though
00:12:56 <kmc> and I hope people will do the same to me
00:13:17 <Fiora> I think you're projecting
00:13:20 <Bike> ok but it's just a list, phantom.
00:13:32 <kmc> it really sucks that the discourse always jumps from "hey that was bad and you shouldn't say it next time" to "YOU'RE HITLER AND YOU WANT TO KILL ALL WOMEN"
00:13:42 <Fiora> the site is making no moral judgements at all, it's literally a list of bad things a person did, not saying anything about the person, other than that "they did these bad things"
00:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> most people don't think they're a bad person, and most people aren't bad people
00:13:52 <Fiora> I think you're the one making the moral judgements, not the site
00:13:58 <Bike> yes. what does that have to do with anything, phantom.
00:14:31 <kmc> people get reeeeeeeealy defensive though
00:14:41 <kmc> it's really hard to say "oh, shit, that was bad and I'm sorry"
00:14:43 <kmc> in a way that's genuine
00:14:48 <Fiora> I don't understand that at all
00:14:54 <Fiora> like if I accidentally said something that was bigoted
00:14:57 <Fiora> and someone said "oh that's bad"
00:15:03 <Fiora> I'm like "sorry, I didn't know, thanks for pointing it out!"
00:15:17 <Fiora> and I've done this probably hundreds of times in my life because this is like... normal?
00:15:24 <Fiora> but for some reason white dudes are super super defensive about it
00:15:25 <kmc> when I was growing up I learned that sexism and racism were the domain of a small group of Very Bad People and the solution is to ostracize them as strongly as possible
00:15:36 <kmc> which is basically completely the wrong way to look at it
00:15:41 <kmc> but that contributes to people being defensive
00:15:42 <Bike> it's hard to get over that view >_>
00:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, but that's because you've had time to acclimate yourself to the idea thaat it's not a personal moral judgement
00:16:01 <kmc> maybe we just need new words, actually I think "problematic" is a pretty good one
00:16:08 <kmc> it doesn't imply intent
00:16:09 <Fiora> but when was it ever? like I don't get it
00:16:10 <Bike> phantom, does what you're saying have anything to do with the site now.
00:16:11 <Phantom_Hoover> most people look at it the way kmc just mentioned, and that is the way our culture definitely portrays it
00:16:19 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: isn't it super convenient too
00:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, if i say no will you let the discussion run its course
00:16:26 <kmc> for the majority of people who don't need to examine their own attitudes
00:16:33 <kmc> "well i don't wear a white hood and burn crosses, I must not be racist"
00:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> like, i saw this discussion elsewhere over the use of the word bitch
00:16:49 <Bike> but i mean hey, we all just agreed that's a silly view and moffat can be bad without being a nazi
00:18:01 <shachaf> kmc: burning crosses is religionist hth
00:18:25 * shachaf thinks religionism is a lot more reasonable than racism, too, though burning crosses probably wouldn't accomplish much
00:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> and the guy saying it was... well, problematic, was having a really hard time of trying to get across that no, he wasn't saying that you personally were telling that woman to get into the kitchen and/or get raped
00:18:29 <Bike> burn a star and crescent every once in a while, bigots!!
00:18:43 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: how about just "don't use slurs"?
00:18:49 <Fiora> it's not super hard
00:18:56 <kmc> Bike: there was that guy in florida who wanted to burn a koran, I think he was the most successful troll of the past few years
00:19:11 <Bike> he was a pastor, right? also didn't he actually go through with it
00:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, so are you just going to be like this throughout the discussion
00:20:00 <Fiora> ummm I'm not sure what there is to discuss
00:20:29 <Fiora> like. as far as I can tell the only other position here is "awww the poor feelings of racists, how terrible it is that they have to be called racist, that must be horrible"
00:20:45 <Phantom_Hoover> welp, you've clearly ignored everything i (and kmc!) have said
00:20:57 <Bike> don't be like that, dude.
00:21:04 <kmc> i think Fiora and I agree...
00:21:10 <Fiora> yeah... are you... even reading...?
00:21:11 <kmc> that was my impression anyway
00:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> when I was growing up I learned that sexism and racism were the domain of a small group of Very Bad People and the solution is to ostracize them as strongly as possible
00:21:30 <Fiora> well you are like trying to argue that we shouldn't call people racists because it ~hurts their feelings~
00:21:32 <Bike> well, don't be a jerk about disagreeing, then
00:21:36 <Bike> about agreeing
00:21:52 <Fiora> and like. well mayyyybe if they didn't want to be called racist they shouldn't be racist?
00:22:05 <kmc> I'm not saying we need nuance in order to protect the feelings of racists! i'm saying we need it for constructive dialogue
00:22:25 * shachaf 's Internet connection disconnects for a few mintues every few minutes.
00:22:27 <kmc> then I think we all agree and you are being hostile to Fiora for no reason?
00:22:52 <Bike> shachaf: imo internet is actually impossible and it's finally catching up to us
00:23:10 <Fiora> I don't think there's much of a point to dialogue, if someone wants to feel a specific way they will come up with endless reams of nonsensical logic to justify their bigotry
00:23:48 <Fiora> if someone is forced to face the consequences of their actions, they're more likely to maybe consider that they could be wrong
00:24:13 <kmc> Fiora: oh, well I disagree with that
00:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the point here is why they consider justifying their bigotry is necessary
00:24:23 <kmc> i think most people aren't malicious and don't want to hurt others
00:24:24 <Fiora> (or I guess I'd say "dialogue helps sometimes, but is often totally useless"?)
00:24:29 <kmc> they just don't understand what is or isn't hurtful
00:24:34 <kmc> i know this has been the case with myself
00:24:39 <kmc> i see things a lot differently now than I used to
00:24:51 <Fiora> I don't think people are malicious, they just /don't care/
00:24:58 <Fiora> which I guess is in itself a form of malice
00:25:01 <kmc> there's some of each yeah
00:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> and that that is, at least in part, because the way we all talk about and understand racism etc. is one of "if you are A Bigot you are A Bad Person and must get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness"
00:25:22 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: or you just say "oops, my bad, thanks for telling me"
00:25:26 <shachaf> Dividing people into "racist peron" and "non-racist person" isn't useful.
00:25:29 <kmc> part of the dialogue is about making them care by showing that the people who have been hurt are real people with valid complaints
00:25:33 <Fiora> like there are plenty of examples of that happening all over the place
00:25:38 <Fiora> famous person says something bigoted
00:25:42 <Fiora> fans say "dude that was wrong"
00:25:50 <Fiora> and amazingly, they come out and say "oh, sorry, my fault, thanks for telling me"
00:25:53 <Fiora> and that's... that's it
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00:26:04 <Fiora> but for each one of those there's the "I'm sorry you were offended~~~~" crowd
00:26:07 <kmc> Fiora: isn't that the "dialogue" that youwere saying was useless?
00:26:08 <Bike> i think phantom meant to talk about the common but wrong perception of what has to happen.
00:26:19 <Fiora> kmc: sorry, I clarified, that dialogue is useful -sometimes-
00:26:21 <kmc> i dunno, this is all getting hopelessly muddled
00:26:25 <Fiora> but a lot of the time it gets nowhere
00:26:33 <Fiora> like, some dialogue is useful but it's not always the answer? sorry
00:26:34 <Fiora> I'm really not clear
00:26:36 <Fiora> and should just stop
00:26:37 <kmc> sort it all out amongst yourselves, I expect a full solution to racism by 9am tomorrow
00:26:56 <Fiora> but basically just saying "you have to talk to the racists!!!" gets old after years and years of absolutelynothinghappening
00:27:03 <Fiora> oh god the tone policing :/
00:27:21 <Fiora> "you're not being nice enough about telling someone they were an asshole :("
00:27:54 <Fiora> and maybe there's a point to it but when someone doesn't listen to niceness more niceness is probably not going to get the message across
00:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't even about niceness where are you getting that from
00:28:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it was an attempt at a solution to unconscious bias in hiring
00:28:16 <Fiora> ... wasn't that... the entirety of what you were saying
00:28:27 <Fiora> then what are you even saying O_O
00:28:40 <Bike> may i suggest that everybody is talking around each other and it may be pointless to continue.
00:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> the point was in being more aware of how people react to questioning of their moral character
00:29:11 <Fiora> if someone cares more about their own ego than the feelings of others, asking them nicely is not going to work
00:30:21 <Fiora> also, often they don't care about the feelings of others /because they're racist/, like, do you expect the people complaining about "dirty mexicans taking their jobs" to care about the feelings of said immigrants?
00:31:13 <Fiora> sorry, this is why I left this channel in this first place, I suppose I'll go back to that
00:31:23 <Fiora> at least this time it wasn't white people going on about how it's so great to use the n-word
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00:33:00 <mnoqy> oh no what happened i wasnt paying attention
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00:40:00 <Bike> Stupid connection.
00:40:08 <Bike> I said: "It started badly." clever imo
00:42:12 <Bike> I mean, I'm still confused about what the hell you meant by it being hypocritical to list instances of a guy being an ass, not even to his face which removes the "but what if he doesn't understand" aspect. Normally I'd let it drop, but I'm a bit angry at the moment.
00:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i kind of had some thoughts mulling around from a while ago, i think i jumped on that blog post as a starting point for airing them
00:43:51 <Bike> yeah, i did the same thing once.
00:43:57 <kmc> i don't think what Phantom_Hoover was saying was that different from what i was saying
00:44:03 <kmc> at least I don't understand the significant differences
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00:44:20 <kmc> but maybe I wasn't reading carefully because the conversation was shitty
00:46:15 * Bike breathes some relief
00:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> EVERYTHING IS BACK TO NORMAL so, bf derivatives are shit aren't they
00:46:49 <Bike> the universal conversation starter, huh
00:46:54 <zzo38> To make a random chance of % that is input from the user, is a good way, to make up a random 7-bit number and then try again if greater than 99, and then to check if the generated number is less than the user's number?
00:50:59 <kmc> good by which criteria?
00:52:50 <zzo38> kmc: Well, what would you use?
00:53:42 <Phantom_Hoover> rand(100), most likely; you're clearly operating under some unspoken constraints
00:54:14 <kmc> rand() generally sucks and on some platforms the low bits are suckier
00:54:39 <kmc> zzo38: I can't say for sure what I would use if I don't know what the constraints are.
00:54:41 <Bike> does zzo need csprng quality for this?
00:54:47 <kmc> just as I can't say if your choice is "a good way"
00:54:53 <kmc> it seems correct and simple
00:55:01 <Bike> i mean if it's just a game or something you may as well use a lcg if you want
00:55:13 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i mean re: rand() generally sucking
00:55:53 <zzo38> What stupid corner cases?
00:56:25 <zzo38> If it is bad random bits generator then I can think it would be bad.
00:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> well e.g. if your rng is something random under 100 with a 50% chance, and 100 with a 50% chance
00:58:15 <zzo38> Well, in that case it would work if everything under 100 is uniform, it works for this purpose, but isn't a good generator anyways.
00:59:14 <zzo38> O, OK, so that's what you mean.
01:03:21 * kmc has arrived on howstuffworks.com somehow and is marveling at stupid article titles
01:03:26 <kmc> "Fact or Fiction: Apple"
01:03:34 <kmc> "Unplug Your Laptop Forever in 7 Steps"
01:03:47 <kmc> step 1: unplug laptop step 2: throw laptop into ocean
01:05:44 <kmc> saw these at the store today: http://www.dyson.com/fans/fansandheaters/comparetherange.aspx
01:05:47 <kmc> basically UFO technology
01:05:48 <Sgeo> can laptops be waterproofed
01:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> yes dyson is basically the stephen wolfram of air-based appliances
01:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover> he just cannot come to grips with the fact that he is never going to revolutionise the field
01:06:35 <Bike> i used one of his hand dryers the other day, i didn't think you could make a hand dryer look like something out of 2001 but boy howdy was i wrong
01:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> and it was all like "are you SICK of all the BUFFETING from normal fans??"
01:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i love the way they make this weird groove in your hand
01:09:12 <kmc> yeah dyson airblade is the best
01:09:38 <kmc> i interviewed at a company that had them in the bathrooms and it nearly sold me on them
01:09:42 <Sgeo> You know the joke about 'dry hands on pants' wrt air dryers? That happens to me more often with paper towels. The (normal) hand dryer in the bathroom works quite well although takes some time.
01:10:10 <kmc> press button, receive joke
01:10:57 <Sgeo> Not a joke, just ... in the instructions on how to use, I've seen '3) dry hands on pants' etched on and I assumed that that was somewhat common for people to say
01:11:36 <Sgeo> http://everything2.com/title/How+to+use+a+hand+dryer
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01:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover> hand carving things into a metal plate sounds like a lot of work for a hoary joke
01:12:57 <Bike> nah, you can do it with a paper clip
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01:14:27 <kmc> i got disconnected from freenode :'(
01:14:30 <Bike> have you ever been in like a rest stop bathroom
01:15:43 <kmc> i ate a sandwich from a rest stop bathroom and there were worms living inside it that gave me superpowers and made me super-intelligent
01:16:26 <kmc> kmc : () -> 'a ref
01:16:36 <pikhq_> kmc is the nickname for Phillip J Fry.
01:16:49 <kmc> @PLT_FuturamaToday_ebooks
01:16:55 <kmc> noooo i'm that guy now
01:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ages ago i found this surprisingly poetic ebooks thing
01:20:15 <Bike> what... is this
01:20:42 <Bike> in a hundred years this will be considered the peak of 2010s art
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01:21:46 <Bike> "Aristocratic nature is expressed far more in the Russian wolfhound that."
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01:28:32 <kmc> "A court in Guatemala has found former military leader Efrain Rios Montt guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity."
01:28:39 <kmc> shocked to read that the US was a major supporter of his regime
01:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> did the us support any third-world regimes with a decent human rights record
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01:29:48 <kmc> i'll let you know if i think of one
01:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they can't have been deliberately picking the awful ones, they're not stupid evil
01:30:04 <kmc> the thing is, every country had leftist guerillas
01:30:14 <kmc> and the US supported whoever would suppress them most brutally
01:30:40 <tswett> So I'm going to be doing a senior thesis starting about half a year from now.
01:30:48 <kmc> interesting to note that the nazis also got their start in suppressing leftist guerillas
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01:31:01 <tswett> It's likely that I'm going to do it on some topic in theoretical computer science.
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01:31:41 <tswett> Anyway, one idea I had was to do a paper on the generalized star height problem.
01:31:57 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_star_height_problem
01:32:02 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: iran under the shah was ok
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01:32:39 <tswett> There's this one paper summing it up, but I feel like it would take me a semester just to get through that paper.
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01:33:47 <tswett> So I'll probably want to figure out something easier.
01:34:11 <tswett> Oh, lemme think. Is there an area of mathematics I feel like I know particularly well? No, not really.
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01:35:45 <Bike> How about addition chains? To pick a random unsolved problem i'm aware of
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01:35:57 <tswett> But I don't know topology well at all.
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01:36:52 <tswett> A problem I found myself particularly interested in once was finding closed forms of linear recurrence sequences.
01:37:05 <tswett> It's a solved problem.
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01:37:20 <kmc> in Iran the post-coup regime (1953-1979) was pretty brutal I think
01:37:20 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK
01:37:33 <tswett> But the particular thing that interested me was what happens to repeated roots.
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01:38:23 <tswett> If you have a repeated root, then the root shows up in the solution multiple times, and each time it shows up, it's multiplied by the next power of n.
01:38:59 <tswett> Gosh, lemme think about that now.
01:39:19 <kmc> 'Gharbzadegi (Persian: غربزدگی) is a pejorative Persian term variously translated as "Westoxification," "West-struck-ness", "Westitis", "Euromania", or "Occidentosis".'
01:39:31 <kmc> that is an amazing word
01:39:41 <Bike> kmc: look up the white revolution
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01:39:42 <Bike_> I can't even tell if this is me or freenode.
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01:40:00 <kmc> i was lagging pretty bad
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01:40:32 <Bike_> so, if i'm actually here: i'm not saying the shah was great obviously but it was probably better than like guatemala.
01:40:33 <tswett> What's a linear recurrence relation for 1, 2, 3, ...? I guess... a_n = 2a_(n-1) - a_(n-2). So the characteristic polynomial is... which way does it go... I guess it's the same either way. t^2 - 2t + 1.
01:40:51 <tswett> Which, of course, factors as (t - 1)(t - 1). Which is a parabola with a double root at 1.
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01:41:04 <kmc> Bike_: fair, I don't know the history well enough to draw those distinctions
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01:42:19 <Bike_> OK, what the hell, I can read everything in the logs, and send messages, but I see no one else's.
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01:42:51 <tswett> I'm not noticing anything wrong on my end.
01:43:45 <Bike> kmc: I only say this because I saw an Iranian guy on a forum rant about people using AJAX as a straightforward "CIA bad!!" thing when that (unsurprisingly) glosses over the history.
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01:44:40 <tswett> So you can think of t as being the "shove the sequence over" operator. Does it matter which way... doesn't seem to. So this polynomial gives you a new operator which, when applied to your sequence, makes it all zero.
01:44:45 <kmc> sure, I think you can pretty well argue that staging coups in someone else's country is bad regardless of whether the new guy is really terrible or just kind of terrible
01:44:55 <Bike> it was definitely bad, yes
01:44:55 <Phantom__Hoover> why are there so many people in this channel who never talk
01:45:03 <Bike> isn't every channel like that?
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01:45:14 <tswett> Where did CakeProphet go?
01:45:49 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, he turned into kallisti and appears to have since fucked off
01:46:05 <Phantom__Hoover> good riddance imo, i haven't forgiven him for portal chess
01:46:15 <Bike> Oh, and the Phillippines was uh... not a hellhole?
01:46:26 <Bike> Most of it anyway.
01:46:37 <Bike> They just have hilariously corrupt politics
01:46:58 <Bike> and only a few maoist insurgencies!
01:47:24 <tswett> Sure enough, t - 1 is an operator that, when applied twice, makes the thing zero... and I feel like this must have something to do with derivatives.
01:47:43 <Bike> haha yes they got sort of kicked out of malaysia
01:48:06 <Bike> the PM or whoever made a speech saying how sad he was that independence was happening
01:48:20 <kmc> so uh what did mao say that people found particularly insightful / novel such that they became maoists
01:48:39 <Bike> well, he was pretty good at revolution
01:49:03 <Bike> and specifically in a mostly rural country i guess
01:49:07 <Bike> beyond that i dunno
01:49:41 <Bike> i wonder if there are ay hoxhaist insurgencies...
01:50:15 <Sgeo> I'm watching "Dalek"
01:50:24 <Bike> One of the Colombian ones is Hoxhaist, apparnetly.
01:50:35 <Sgeo> Are they idiots? They can't just say "Ok, this electronic lock has no correct combination anymore"
01:50:39 <tswett> What does the derivative of the characteristic polynomial mean, conceptually... what does the whole polynomial mean... why am I still talking even though presumably nobody's listening...
01:50:45 <Sgeo> And no protections against brute forcing?
01:51:30 <Bike> isn't Dalek from like 1963
01:51:44 <Sgeo> The NuWho episode
01:52:21 <Sgeo> wtf it's using sounds from Creatures Docking Station
01:52:24 <Bike> kmc: but yeah i think a lot of it's the tactics? like the vietcong used the maoist insurgency model and they wer ehella successful. just a guess though
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01:57:48 <tswett> I guess it's, like, you factor it, and you do them all except you forget one, and then do that with all of them...
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02:03:58 <tswett> It's like, you take the sequence 1, 1, 1, ..., and you repeatedly integrate it... except that's not what you're doing at all, is it... and do you even start with that sequence in the first place...
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02:05:33 <kmc> i don't know what mao said about tactics
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02:07:27 <Sgeo> Goddammit even the Doctor is an idiot in this episode.
02:08:49 <tswett> So occurrences of the same root stack on top of each other, and they do that multiplication thing... that multiplication thing which consists of, like, multiplying...
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02:10:06 <tswett> If you convolute a constant sequence with itself, you get a linear sequence. If you convolute an exponential sequence with itself...
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02:11:27 <tswett> Then that's linear-times-exponential, sure enough. But if you convolute two different exponential sequences... better place to start, what if you convolute a constant with an exponential...
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02:13:25 <tswett> Here's an exponential sequence: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, .... Here's a constant sequence: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, .... Convolute them, and you get this sequence: 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, .... So somehow it's turned into an exponential sequence *plus* a constant sequence.
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02:17:22 <Sgeo> I want to see the Doctor fail hard.
02:17:39 <Sgeo> I want him to make that choice, that choice to save one and risk everything... and then everything comes down
02:18:33 * Bike looks up at netsplits in astonishment
02:18:55 <tswett> So those sequences correspond to 1/(1-2x) and 1/(1-x), and their convolution is of course 1/(1-2x)(1-x), which can also be written as 1/(1-3x+2x^2), which doesn't really look spectacular. But that partial fraction expansion... how do partial fractions work, anyway...
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02:20:15 <kmc> srand(time(NULL)) is a terrible hack that shouldn't ever be necessary
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02:20:27 <Bike> what should we seed with
02:20:33 <kmc> bytes from /dev/urandom
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02:20:47 <kmc> actually Linux passes some randomness to every new process, in the ELF auxv
02:20:55 <kmc> so you wouldn't even need to make a separate syscall
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02:21:12 <Sgeo> Maybe I should start reading Watchmen
02:21:38 <Bike> so don't bother seeding, or
02:22:24 <kmc> ideally the default seed would be from urandom / auxv AT_RANDOM
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02:22:40 <zzo38> I have problems with the connect
02:22:40 <kmc> of course people would still write srand(time(NULL)) for the following 20 years
02:22:42 <zzo38> I have problems with the connection
02:22:51 <kmc> zzo38: a lot of us do
02:23:43 <Bike> seeding rand with time is easy to understand, though
02:23:48 <Bike> and you don't think about the attacks...
02:24:55 <tswett> Take a screenshot, hash it, and use that as your seed! :D
02:25:00 <Sgeo> Um. How likely is stuff to try to content-sniff something with MIME-type application/json?
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02:25:54 <Sgeo> Just a question.
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02:28:53 <Sgeo> This is really the sort of thing I should just google
02:29:48 <Sgeo> What idiocy is on the scale of content-sniffing? I haven't picked up the book in a while
02:30:13 <Bike> Content sniffing is where you look at the content to guess how to interpret it, right?
02:31:03 <Bike> is that still used on web content?
02:31:18 <kmc> yes because everything is ruined forever
02:31:41 <kmc> i like the thing where you can trick Internet Explorer into interpreting a page as UTF-7
02:31:57 <Bike> Well, I've heard IE does it, but others?
02:32:07 <kmc> +ADw-script+AD4-alert(+ACI-Hello, world+ACEAIg)+ADsAPA-/script+AD4
02:32:10 <Bike> also: can you do a "bush hid the facts" level thing
02:32:26 <Sgeo> kmc, ....bluh so urlencoding isn't enough
02:32:42 <kmc> well HTML escaping is more germane
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02:33:13 <Sgeo> The problem with whitelisting allowed characters is not realizing that an innocent + or - can be bad too
02:33:16 <tswett> I wonder how IE detects character encodings. Naive Bayes classifiers?
02:33:21 <Sgeo> So it might be in the whitelist
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02:33:34 <Bike> «UTF-7 is generally not used as a native representation within applications as it is very awkward to process. Despite its size advantage over the combination of UTF-8 with either quoted-printable or base64, the Internet Mail Consortium recommends against its use.» wow really you don't say
02:33:34 <JesseH> Anyone working on a cool esolang?
02:33:41 <Bike> is utf-7 an esolang
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02:33:58 <tswett> Well, it's not that + and - are bad; it's that the same bytes may be decoded one way to get + and -, and another way to get bad characters.
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02:34:52 -!- kmc has set topic: is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | I +JmU UTF-7 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:34:57 <Sgeo> fuck everything
02:35:09 <Sgeo> Is there any way to abuse alphanumerics in a similar way
02:35:22 <Bike> ooh it's not really related but you know what's cool? alphanumeric code
02:35:30 <kmc> Sgeo: also it's basically an IE bug that was fixed long ago I think
02:35:47 <Bike> your firewall only accepts text? well too bad my text is shellcode
02:35:47 <kmc> that it would do dumb autodetect shit even when the page had a specified encoding
02:36:01 <kmc> i don't know, maybe it is still vulnerable if you don't specify an encoding
02:37:21 <kmc> <meta charset="utf-8"> <!-- In the name of Ken Thompson, the merciful, the compassionate -->
02:40:04 <kmc> describing the character set of a document using text-based markup is an entertaining kind of bass-ackwards thing to do
02:40:42 <pikhq_> That's the sort of trick that only manages to work because most charsets have a large common subset.
02:41:01 <kmc> <_et/ ch/rset="EBCDIC">
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02:41:28 <pikhq_> Yeah, someone using EBCDIC in this day and age should be shot.
02:42:43 <zzo38> But you have to use a camera.
02:43:16 <tswett> EBCDIC is still used nowadays, isn't it?
02:43:55 <Sgeo> tswett, yes. Companies that make target practice for pikhq_ use it all the time.
02:44:07 <zzo38> Well, it isn't very good. ASCII is better, but I would have ordered some things differently in ASCII too.
02:44:09 <pikhq_> Exclusively in the context of software from the 60s that people are afraid to touch.
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02:44:26 <Sgeo> What's so bad about EBCDIC?
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02:44:47 <pikhq_> Look at the freaking code chart.
02:44:47 <zzo38> Mainly, how everything is ordered in the character set.
02:45:02 <Bike_> "What's so bad about EBCDIC?" man did i miss some good stuff
02:45:03 <kmc> my friend at Stripe says they have to interoperate with EBCDIC financial protocols
02:45:06 <tswett> Apparently there are multiple different versions of EBCDIC and the letters aren't contiguous.
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02:45:30 <pikhq_> There's also UTF-EBCDIC.
02:45:37 <pikhq_> I wonder if that's even used.
02:46:22 <zzo38> Some programs can use different character set whatever works better, but mainly you would use ASCII.
02:46:39 <Sgeo> ANyone who uses ASCII in this day and age should be shot
02:46:59 <Bike> anyone who uses text encodings in this day and age should be shot. cat pictures = the future.
02:47:08 <pikhq_> Meh. ASCII is just UCS-7/8.
02:47:18 <kmc> if forigners want to use computers they should just learn english, obviously
02:47:26 <kmc> (by foreigners I mean 95% of the world population, of course)
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02:47:41 <tswett> And "foreigner" means "non-Korean", obviously.
02:47:49 <pikhq_> Demo, nihon de ha minna ga romaji wo tsukaeru no
02:48:14 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that's a Korean word.
02:48:15 <Bike> pikhq-kun, denwa
02:48:17 * kmc ghost face
02:48:58 <pikhq_> Bike: Boku wa keitai wo tsukaitakunaishi...
02:49:13 <Bike> nice two dollar word
02:49:39 <pikhq_> Japanese conjugation tends to go like that.
02:49:59 <Bike> is japanese agglutinative?
02:50:18 <zzo38> kmc: Well, enough to operating computers anyways; you don't need to learn English completely!!!!! For writing in different languages there *are* different font and encodings, and which is the purpose of using such things, even if the commands is in English..... i.e. you write a program using ASCII it can still work with other characters sets too. Or, you can work in binary; then it doesn't matter the character sets either.
02:50:52 <zzo38> Software for the Famicom might use different character sets in case not all ASCII is needed, or for the purpose I did in Famicom Hangman, where it directly read the keyboard and then XOR with the row number, so the letters are all over the place in its character set.
02:51:01 <kmc> U+FE08 VARIATION SELECTOR 'GANGNAM STYLE'
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02:51:26 <Bike> i still haven't heard gangnam style. i'm so stupidly proud of this fact
02:51:42 <Bike> i watched the demusicked video so i still recognize all the memes though
02:51:47 <kmc> it's all ricghht
02:51:56 <kmc> (all right but i couldn't be bothered to fix typo)
02:52:03 <pikhq_> It's decent East Asian pop music.
02:52:08 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82LCKBdjywQ better
02:52:08 <tswett> So I guess z/OS uses EBCDIC.
02:52:28 <Bike> one of my friends used to be super into j-rock so god knows i've heard enough such pop
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02:52:34 <Bike> kmc: fantastic
02:52:35 <zzo38> (However, if you convert the Famicom keyboard input into ASCII, this makes it very easy to handle the SHIFT and CONTROL keys without using any further lookup tables. The only lookup table needed is for the individual keys.)
02:52:57 <pikhq_> tswett: IIRC they use EBCDIC as a legacy charset, and new software uses UTF-16.
02:53:05 <pikhq_> (which is itself stupid, but hey.)
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02:53:38 <zzo38> Well, yes, but still some software uses it such as VGM format GD3 tags are all in UTF-16 format.
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02:54:59 <zzo38> The Windows API functions with "W" are using UTF-16 (and strings are stored in UTF-16 in VB6, although they are usually converted to single byte encoding when calling Windows API functions, but if you know to do it, you can avoid this).
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02:56:33 <zzo38> A program that is reading ASCII input files and will output a format that uses UTF-16 then it can use UTF-8 for the parts that does need to convert to UTF-16 and ASCII for the rest, since UTF-8 is extended ASCII and is simple enough to convert to UTF-16.
02:57:11 <pikhq_> Ultimately, there's UTF-8 and bad ideas. :)
02:57:48 <kmc> for serialization, anyway
02:57:50 <zzo38> Furthermore, they aren't mutually exclusive.
02:57:56 <zzo38> This makes it even worse.
02:58:04 <tswett> Just use UTF-32 everywhere and let the kernel automatically compress your data.
02:58:14 <tswett> If the kernel doesn't do that, it sucks.
02:58:15 <pikhq_> UTF-32 internally at least isn't *stupid*.
02:58:20 <zzo38> Glulx uses UTF-32.
02:58:38 <pikhq_> It's not great for serialization, and honestly accessing codepoints individually is a rare thing, but whatever.
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02:59:06 <tswett> What do you mean by "accessing codepoints individually"? Like, indexing into a string?
02:59:24 <pikhq_> You don't generally want to index by codepoint.
02:59:32 <kmc> UTF-16 internally may not be that stupid either; it can be a lot faster and you may not need random codepoint indexing (because it's not that useful)
03:00:03 <pikhq_> 'cept you're probably getting UTF-8 from outside.
03:00:19 <zzo38> Some programs might use overlong UTF-8 encodings to escape control characters and spaces and so on; VGMCK does this (in GD3 tags only; everywhere else they are invalid because they aren't ASCII), so that you can output GD3 tags with trailing spaces.
03:00:25 <Bike> maybe this is a reason to use touchscreeny interfaces
03:00:29 <Bike> just fuck text
03:00:29 <Bike> go postliterate
03:00:42 <kmc> i think for storing large amounts of text with random codepoint indexing, you probably want a rope of UTF-8 or UTF-16 chunks, where each chunk knows its length and you just scan linearly
03:01:03 <zzo38> I don't like touchscreen; keyboard is better
03:01:04 <kmc> i bet with the right SSE voodoo you can find the nth UTF-8 codepoint really quickly
03:01:09 <kmc> paging Fiora
03:01:31 <tswett> Hm. You could interpret UTF-8 as a sequence of Unicode code points and re-encode it in UTF-8.
03:01:36 <pikhq_> Makes sense. Particularly if you make it so each rope cannot contain only part of a codepoint on its boundaries.
03:01:41 <pikhq_> tswett: I've *seen this happen*.
03:01:43 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this kind of UTF-8 -> UTF-16 that is doing it for this purpose?
03:02:45 <pikhq_> tswett: It was in filenames in a .rar file no less.
03:02:57 <tswett> Wait, was the 21-bit limit on code points chosen because of UTF-8?
03:03:11 <Bike> didn't the limit used to be lower
03:03:19 <pikhq_> No. In fact, UTF-8 only possesses such a limit for the sake of the 21-bit limit.
03:03:28 <pikhq_> Bike: Yes. 16. Hence UTF-16.
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03:03:39 <tswett> So it's a coincidence that 21 bits fits snugly into 4 UTF-8 bytes.
03:03:48 <kmc> http://woboq.com/blog/utf-8-processing-using-simd.html
03:03:59 <pikhq_> UTF-16 got popular because "you can stick anything in it", and then they changed that assumption.
03:04:29 <pikhq_> So now UTF-16 is neither codepoint per code unit *nor* compatible with typical ASCII-assuming code.
03:04:40 <pikhq_> Making it just awkward.
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03:05:58 <zzo38> Yes I know, that is why don't use UTF-16.
03:06:55 <zzo38> UTF-8 actually allow 36-bit codes, although Unicode is only up to 21-bits so it will not be a valid Unicode character if you do this.
03:07:21 <zzo38> It is still valid if you are using a much longer encoding than Unicode, which still is UTF-8 for some reason.
03:10:08 <zzo38> This means that it is possible to encode the Glk special keyboard codes in UTF-8.
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03:13:04 <tswett> So the whole UTF-8-in-UTF-8 thing means that a byte 1xxxxxxx would be reencoded as 1100001x 10xxxxxx. And that would be reencoded as 11000011 1000001x 11000010 10xxxxxx... repeat forever, what do you get?
03:14:23 <tswett> Oh, what are the Haskell codes...
03:15:43 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in reenc undefined
03:15:47 <lambdabot> ["1100001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:16:09 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in fix (concatMap reenc)
03:16:48 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in concatMap reenc . reenc $ undefined
03:16:51 <lambdabot> ["11000011","1000001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:16:59 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in concatMap reenc . concatMap reenc . reenc $ undefined
03:17:02 <lambdabot> ["11000011","10000011","11000010","1000001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:17:26 <tswett> And yet the fix doesn't work. We need more laze...
03:18:55 <tswett> But, like... shouldn't it work? It appears to work for arbitrarily many iterations of concatMap reenc, so shouldn't it work for infinitely many...
03:19:10 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in concatMap reenc $ undefined
03:19:55 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]]; col ~(x:xs) = x:xs in concatMap reenc . col $ undefined
03:19:57 <lambdabot> ["1100001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:20:10 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]]; col ~(x:xs) = x:xs in fix (concatMap reenc . col)
03:20:14 <lambdabot> ["11000011","10000011","11000010","10000011","11000011","10000010","1100001...
03:21:47 <zzo38> 0xFE 0x83 0xBF 0xBF 0xBF 0xBF 0xBE is the UTF-8 encoding for the Glk left arrow key.
03:22:56 <zzo38> (Glk doesn't use UTF-8 though; but I suppose it could be used if you wanted to record the user input to a Glk program in a UTF-8 encoded file.)
03:23:31 <kmc> i'm not sure that code where every line is a call to an SSE intrinsic is really more readable than inline assembly
03:23:42 <kmc> but I guess it is better in some other ways
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03:23:56 <kmc> some level of type checking, let the compiler do register allocation, more portable
03:24:17 <kmc> (portable between compilers for the same architecture, I mean)
03:24:49 <Fiora> assembly isn't even done by a compiler though, right?
03:25:43 <Fiora> I mean, that seems even more compatible ^^;
03:25:57 <Fiora> with intrinsics the compiler has to support the specific intrinsic format and stuff
03:26:15 <kmc> i think GCC and MSVC intrinsicts are more similar than GCC and MSVC inline asm syntax
03:26:21 <kmc> because intel more or less dictates the former?
03:26:23 <kmc> not sure though
03:26:58 <Fiora> using inline asm for SIMD feels kind of silly I guess?
03:27:20 <Fiora> like, you have to runtime-detect the code anyways, so you can't actually inline it
03:28:22 <shachaf> Now my Internet connection is OK but I need to go to sleep.
03:28:31 <Fiora> I almost never use intrinsics though, I am super glad I don't have to touch them, they look painful to use
03:28:53 <shachaf> Also joining a discussion on whateveritism is one thing but I don't want to start one.
03:29:10 <kmc> do you just write assembly in separate files then?
03:29:14 * shachaf will leave opinions for another day.
03:29:21 <Fiora> like 98% of the time I guess?
03:29:40 <Fiora> I think I pretty much only do inline-asm when I need to inline it, and like, I really need to futz with constraints or something
03:29:55 <Fiora> but inline asm doesn't work with anything other than gcc and it's a super-big hassle
03:30:18 <kmc> i'm pretty fond of gcc inline assembly :)
03:30:22 <kmc> maybe too fond
03:30:44 <shachaf> gcc inline assembly syntax is awful
03:30:53 <kmc> but it's soooooooo powerful
03:31:05 <kmc> except for %r8 - %r15 :(
03:31:47 <shachaf> I wish it would allow a large block of inline asm without a lot of noise.
03:32:02 <kmc> you can use semicolons instead of \n\t
03:32:07 <kmc> ...on most architectures?
03:32:17 <kmc> you still have quotes on every line
03:32:19 <shachaf> ";", is still a lot of overhead.
03:32:28 <kmc> er why the comma
03:32:45 <shachaf> ";" is still a lot of overhead.
03:32:56 <Fiora> kmc: yeah, I do really love the constraints
03:33:00 <shachaf> And I prefer to " \ n " so that the output is readable.
03:33:12 <Fiora> the main thing is just like, writing asm without a macro assembler is bothersome
03:33:24 <shachaf> I think the constraint language is way too write-only.
03:33:47 <pikhq_> Alas, gas is meant to assemble compiler output, not for human consumption.
03:33:50 <kmc> the constraint language is some GCC internal crap that escaped the lab, right?
03:34:04 <shachaf> Maybe it isn't if I treat it as a proper language rather than something to look up once every few months or something.
03:34:07 <kmc> Fiora: yeah that's true, macro assemblers are great
03:34:19 <kmc> I like that I can write a macro that's like, make a Linux syscall in what looks like one instruction
03:34:25 <kmc> and that's probably one of the simpler cool marcos
03:34:28 <kmc> macros too
03:35:14 <shachaf> every programming language is a macro assembler hth
03:35:56 <zzo38> GCC inline asm syntax is no good because of the way it decides how long the instruction is, I think.
03:36:04 <Fiora> kmc: nasm macros can get insanely fancy, it's really wonderful
03:36:27 <Fiora> %rep and %assign are truly wonderful things
03:36:41 <Fiora> sometimes even programming C I wish I had them
03:36:52 <zzo38> I have worked with some macro assemblers such as MagicKit which I have made improvements to, and Frolg.
03:36:55 <Fiora> <some code that uses i>
03:37:16 <Fiora> and you can get super complicated and fancy
03:37:17 <zzo38> Fiora: Yes I think that can be useful to have in C as well, but with # instead of %
03:37:20 <Bike> it's an inline repeat?
03:37:38 <Fiora> you can even repeat an unspecified number of times, and break out explicitly!
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03:38:01 <shachaf> That sounds like a loop to me. Who cares if it's unrolled?
03:38:23 <Fiora> it's... it's not quite, sometimes you can't quite turn things into loops or it isn't a good idea
03:38:32 <Bike> while 1 break in macros is an odd idea though
03:38:33 <shachaf> is this some kind of operational detail
03:38:36 <Fiora> or like it's not even possible because the "i" affects the instructions themselves
03:38:41 <Fiora> not just, like, an address
03:38:52 <shachaf> imo denotational semantics hth
03:39:00 <Bike> and what's %assign do, pick a register?
03:39:05 <Fiora> it just sets a variable,
03:39:08 <Fiora> in the preprocessor
03:39:16 <Fiora> it's not quite %define, because it actually evaluates the expression
03:39:23 <Fiora> so %assign i i+1 means i=i+1;
03:39:27 <zzo38> Or if you want to write { [0]=5, [1]=6, [2]=7, [3]=8 } and so on, in C.
03:39:41 <Fiora> oh yeah! you can also use it to construct lookup tables programmatically
03:39:45 <Fiora> without having to do them at runtime
03:39:57 <Fiora> but ummmm let me see if I can think of a good example
03:40:04 <shachaf> I just closed my browser and behind it I had five mtr windows running.
03:40:15 <zzo38> In C (at least in GCC) you can even do that and then override later in the same table like { [0]=5, [0]=8 }
03:40:24 <Fiora> okay, you have a vector of 4 ints, and on each iteration, you need to (among other things) splat an int across a register
03:40:29 <zzo38> That makes it useful to make such tables.
03:40:31 <Fiora> soooo on the first iteration you'dd o
03:40:46 <Fiora> pshufd tmpreg, myreg, 00000000b
03:40:54 <Fiora> and on the second you'd do pshufd tmpreg, myreg, 01010101b
03:41:27 <Fiora> if that was inside of a %rep'd statement, you could do like... pshufd tmpreg, myreg, i*01010101b!
03:41:53 <Fiora> so on the first iteration you'd splat myreg[0], then myreg[1], and stuff
03:42:08 <Fiora> sorry this is probably super confusingly explained
03:42:25 <zzo38> I understand it, though.
03:42:54 <Fiora> basically unrolling things is pretty much required when it affects the actual instructions, I guess?
03:47:37 <zzo38> Another thing I would like to have in C is to make long macros that can include preprocessor directives and so on.
03:47:53 <Sgeo> I should watch ST:VOY Threshold
03:48:43 <shachaf> Right. And therefore one shouldn't care about the actual instructions.
03:48:59 <Bike> i've thought a bit about how you could have lisp-style macrology in C, but i don't think it plays well with C's typing (at all)
03:49:06 * Fiora okay won't argue don't do that like earlier *poof*
03:49:29 <kmc> Bike: how so
03:49:53 <Sgeo> ....that episode won an Emmy
03:50:03 <zzo38> What else I would like to have is a programming language that uses TeX as its preprocessor.
03:50:13 <kmc> zzo38: of course
03:50:41 <Sgeo> Star Trek Voyager "Threshold"
03:50:58 <shachaf> Fiora: OK, I'm confused, but never mind.
03:51:23 <Bike> kmc: well, with lisp macros you have forms, which are arbitrary code that you don't have to care about the form of. could be a symbol or a function call or whatever. so in C you'd need to have like a "form" type, presumably a tagged union. but to pass all the arguments to the macro function in the same way they need to be able to decompose those arguments, so you have to care about the tags and stuff
03:51:54 <kmc> yeah using C to manipulate tree shaped data is annoying
03:52:05 <kmc> i think you should pair your extension with a pattern-matching extension to C
03:52:16 <kmc> which I think could be pretty simple sugar
03:52:17 <Bike> so schemeish macros?
03:52:23 <kmc> nah fuck that noise
03:52:35 <Bike> oh, pattern matching like haskell
03:52:53 <Bike> probably the best syntax for dealing with unions yeah
03:52:54 <kmc> just extend 'case' to have a nice compact way to switch on field x of a struct and also project in field y which is a union
03:52:57 <kmc> or something yeah
03:53:02 <Fiora> shachaf: um, I'm just trying not to argue that's all
03:54:19 <shachaf> I don't mind arguments although I don't think I was arguing about anything.
03:54:22 <shachaf> I think I was joking but sometimes I can't tell.
03:54:22 <Bike> frankly i don't think i'm good enough at C to do any such thing well, though.
03:54:35 <Fiora> um, exactly I don't understand ._.
03:54:45 <Fiora> and talking about things I don't understand is bad
03:54:53 <Bike> i.e. i don't know what C programmers would actually want, etc
03:55:17 <shachaf> We can have a metadiscussion about how talking about things you don't understand is good, because otherwise how will you ever understand anything?
03:55:36 <shachaf> But if you don't understand that either then we'd be stuck.
03:55:40 <kmc> i never metadiscussion I didn't like
03:56:30 <shachaf> i was in canada this morning
03:56:32 -!- Fiora has left ("I think my brain is going to explode").
03:56:37 <Bike> Rust is probably better than anything i could come up with anyway (I don't know shit about rust)
03:56:58 <kmc> Bike: I applied to work at Mozilla on their new browser written in Rust!
03:57:04 <kmc> but they didn't get back to me yet
03:57:59 <kmc> they say you can work from any office or remotely
03:58:03 <kmc> but i would work from the SF office
03:58:11 <kmc> mozilla is a strange company
03:58:27 <kmc> most of their revenue comes from Google paying for Google to be the default search engine in Firefox
03:58:40 <kmc> apparently this is enough to pay for a dozen really nice worldwide offices and hundreds of full time employees
03:59:28 <Bike> that sounds like the modern version of a very illegal 19th century arrangement
04:01:20 <Bike> it sounds hella shady is what i'm saying
04:01:41 <kmc> i don't see anything wrong with it ethically, but it seems like shaky ground for mozilla
04:01:44 <zzo38> Is the "0" in linear logic what you cannot make and the "top" what you cannot use?
04:02:06 <kmc> what if google decides to stop paying and to hire the best Mozilla engineers to work on Chrome?
04:02:18 <Sgeo> I think when I was a kid I thought Google was the default because everyone loved Google
04:02:20 <Bike> it seems kind of monopolistic?
04:03:05 <zzo38> Well, you can change it, or even offer your own version which changes that and other things, if you want to.
04:03:20 <zzo38> So it is not *that* important.
04:03:22 <kmc> Bike: otoh they are explicitly supporting a competitor in the browser space
04:03:36 <kmc> i've heard the theory that it's like Microsoft investing in Apple way back when
04:03:42 <Sgeo> Google used to not be in the browser marketplace
04:03:43 <kmc> keeping a competitor alive to keep the SEC off your back
04:03:57 <kmc> they also say that having more browser competition is good for the Web and that helps Google
04:04:00 <kmc> which i think is fair
04:04:11 <Bike> you're not helping the idea that this isn't shady by saying it's to throw off government agents
04:04:57 <Sgeo> We should start the web from scratch, design it properly.
04:05:11 <Bike> TCP has to go clearly
04:05:14 <zzo38> We should make the "paranoid web browser" which is using the "paranoid rendering engine" and "paranoid DOM" and stuff, which causes it to ignore a lot of things and use overrides for everything.
04:05:14 <kmc> now i'm imagining a show like The X-Files except it's Mulder and Scully investigating abuse of monopoly power
04:05:14 <Bike> alt. let's all use gopher
04:05:15 <Sgeo> If people want to use the old web, they flip a switch in their browser... or perhaps different browser.
04:05:23 <zzo38> Bike: Gopher is still TCP.
04:05:32 <Bike> that's why it's an alt.ernative!
04:05:42 <Bike> kmc: that'd be depressing because they'd hardly ever succeed
04:05:44 <zzo38> But at least gopher is better than all of the junk in webpages and stuff.
04:06:00 <kmc> Bike: they hardly ever succeed on the real show too
04:06:06 <Bike> Sgeo: so, what to use instead of http
04:06:11 <Bike> kmc: (i've never watched the x files)
04:06:14 <Bike> (i'm a bad nerd :()
04:06:37 <kmc> i've seen ~half of it
04:06:41 <Bike> I have seen http://www.shaenon.com/monsteroftheweek/ though.
04:06:43 <zzo38> HTML and the stuff used with it is worse than HTTP.
04:06:52 <Sgeo> Do we want to make SOP fundamental or use different new policy
04:07:05 <shachaf> Bike: http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=374
04:07:06 <Sgeo> Content-sniffing is horrible, it should be banned in new protocol
04:07:21 <kmc> Bike: oh i saw that episode
04:07:21 <Sgeo> Cookies thrown out and redesigned
04:07:39 <kmc> oh wait this is... all of them
04:07:43 <kmc> well all of the first 2 seasons
04:07:56 <Sgeo> SOP (or some alternative) made consistent and not even the equivalent of a cross-domain GET should occur without permission from the other server
04:07:57 <zzo38> Gopher is fine for a lot of things. Some things aren't, but that is why we have IRC, Telnet, SMTP, SSH, etc
04:08:04 <Bike> shachaf: that dog is so bad.
04:08:13 <kmc> Bike: this is great thanks for sharing
04:08:44 <Bike> http://www.shaenon.com/monsteroftheweek/?p=277 would explain a lot really
04:08:56 <Sgeo> Although SOP might not be that big a deal without cookies?
04:10:08 <kmc> oh man Eugene Tooms
04:10:08 <zzo38> If you need a persistent session, you can use SSH; it is how the internet intended persistent sessions to work.
04:12:30 <kmc> handed down on stone tablets
04:13:13 <Bike> ugh why are all of the comicker's sites so badly... bad
04:13:30 <Bike> i can't read skin horse because it goes into a redirect loop, what is even happening
04:14:28 <Sgeo> Clearly, the comic is about a redirect loop
04:16:35 <zzo38> "If people want to use the old web, they flip a switch in their browser..." ... Wouldn't you just change the URI scheme or something like that????
04:17:08 <Bike> "Chromium's connection attempt to www.shaenon.com was rejected" and what is this bullshit
04:17:17 <Bike> am i not good enough for you, tv show based comics??
04:17:37 <shachaf> kmc: did you apply to other things
04:18:33 <kmc> i had my first tech phone interview with matasano today
04:18:36 <kmc> it went well I think
04:19:05 <shachaf> I sent Fiora some /msgs to ask about what happened and she /quit. :-(
04:19:34 <shachaf> Oh well. No metametadiscussions either, I guess.
04:19:39 <Bike> Earlier she got in an argument here and she was (is) feeling really anxious.
04:19:43 <zzo38> Some programs also have documentation in HTML format, which means the file: URI scheme will be used in my browser.
04:21:28 <shachaf> I suppose /msging someone who /parts when they get uncomfortable is like trapping them.
04:21:41 <Bike> «According to Wikipedia, Entertainment Weekly called this episode “offbeat and cute.” This episode opens with an onscreen rape»
04:24:32 <kmc> we're really avoiding touchy subjects here aren't we
04:25:07 <kmc> shachaf: maybe soon I will be a Security Consultant
04:25:13 <kmc> i think it would be nice
04:25:16 <kmc> new puzzles every few weeks
04:28:27 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4lK41SX-Q why don't i watch wrestling?
05:38:45 <zzo38> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog and feels as if he were in the seventh heaven of typography together with Hermann Zapf, the most famous artist of the...
05:48:49 <Sgeo> "Message in a Bottle" is one of the good Voy episodes, right?
05:48:51 <Sgeo> I've seen it before
05:50:19 <zzo38> Do you know if the linear logic "0" means you cannot make it and "top" means you cannot use it?
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06:12:31 <Jafet1> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resolution.jpg
06:13:26 <Bike> bosch is the best
06:14:23 <kmc> the bosch manifesto: bosch is the best, get high all the time
06:16:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_ManTree_Bosch.jpg just chillin
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12:35:54 <Jafet> “A lumberjack is injured when cutting a tree which has been spiked by environmentalists. He is infected by genetically modified tree sap, causing him to turn into a zombie.”
12:36:06 <Jafet> Sounds like a good movie
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12:46:11 <FreeFull> He then gets killed by a hobo with a shotgun
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14:30:12 <Vorpal> Program received signal SIGPWR, Power fail/restart.
14:30:13 <Vorpal> [Switching to Thread 0x7ffff4a65700 (LWP 16660)]
14:30:29 <Vorpal> That is utterly bogus.
14:31:06 <Vorpal> I guess gdb won't work on this program if it uses SIGPWR for some sort of internal signalling
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15:38:30 <Taneb> United States of Saudi Arabia
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15:41:58 <HackEgo> Qw3rtyP0iuy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:43:20 <Bike> like visual basic?
15:43:25 <Taneb> Qw3rtyP0iuy, I hope not, VB was my first programming language
15:43:50 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> Seeing if I can put out a game in 19 more hours.
15:45:04 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> I find the game interesting, you must have exactly 5 players... so I'm going to write this and the AI
15:45:04 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> RIght now I only have the shuffling, dealing, and playing cards down.
15:45:05 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> I'm a bit slow as I've forgotten all syntax for every language I've used... so using VB
15:46:47 <Taneb> Any particular reason you came here?
15:47:13 <Taneb> Visual Basic is kinda esoteric, but this isn't really the channel for it as far as I know)
15:47:26 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> I'm going to wager it's not esoteric at all
15:48:02 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> Anyways, I figured out the basics of brainfuck when I was a kid because of its intriguing name
15:48:28 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> and I saw Chinese graphics card problem in the information... which I have.
15:48:41 * myname had to giggle at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl
15:50:04 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> anyways, I glanced over MIT's esoteric programming language competitions more than twice
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16:14:33 <oerjan> <Taneb> On an unrelated note, I believe that in base 30, 1/11 has a ten-digit long repeating part <-- is that 11 in base 10 or 30?
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16:15:46 <oerjan> because i think 1/11_b has two-digit long repeating part in all bases b
16:17:16 <lifthras1ir> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2F11+in+base+30
16:18:03 <Taneb> oerjan, 11 base 10
16:18:08 <myname> that is not 1/(30^-1 * 30^-2)
16:18:23 <oerjan> well wolfram alpha agrees with you on 11_10
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16:20:12 <oerjan> basically because 11_b * b = 100_{b^2}-1 and 1/(b-1) always has one-digit repetition in base b, so 1/11_b has one-digit in base b^2
16:21:15 <oerjan> * 11_b * (b-1) = 100_{b^2}-1
16:21:47 <oerjan> * 11_b * (b-1) = 10_{b^2}-1
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16:22:25 <lifthras1ir> and of course 1 / (11 in base 9) in base 10 has no recurring digits at all
16:23:00 <lifthras1ir> now consider a non-positional or non-standard positional numeral system...
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16:23:05 <Jafet> In fact, it has two
16:23:51 <lifthrasiir> Jafet, okay, it has a form with no recurring digits at all.
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16:26:20 <oerjan> also, the number of recurring digits of 1/x in base b, when x relatively prime to b, is the order of b in the multiplicative group Z_x hth
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16:27:06 <oerjan> i guess it's not actually called Z_x, that's the whole ring. i forget.
16:27:21 <oerjan> multiplicative group (mod x), anyway.
16:27:59 <oerjan> which has order the euler totient of x iirc
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16:28:59 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_totient_function
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16:30:41 <oerjan> phi(11) = 10 so whatever the number of repetitions of 1/11 is in any base will divide 10.
16:31:21 <olsner> isn't phi(n) = n-1 for all primes?
16:32:00 <oerjan> and only for primes, i guess.
16:33:43 <Taneb> The day before yesterday I found myself discussing who would win in a fight: Wolverine or Scott Pilgrim
16:34:18 <oerjan> something i happily cannot discuss.
16:34:31 <olsner> are they even in the same universe?
16:34:49 <olsner> then they wouldn't fight
16:35:03 <Taneb> Didn't stop Superman and Goku
16:35:36 <oerjan> itt olsner shows naivety about crossovers
16:37:04 <Taneb> Scouring the internet, it seems to be "they wouldn't fight because they both love Canada
16:37:07 <oerjan> hypothesis: any sufficiently long-lasting speculative fiction franchise will eventually develop a multiverse that theoretically embraces all others.
16:37:29 <Taneb> oerjan, what about Stainless Steel Rat
16:37:39 <olsner> hmm, what's that thing about how almost every tv series is in the same universe?
16:37:43 <olsner> based on the theory that each crossover "proves" that the crossed-over universes are the same
16:37:54 <oerjan> Taneb: i've heard the name, and that's _all_ i remember about it.
16:38:57 <Bike> westphall, olsner
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16:39:39 <olsner> Bike: ah, yes, that's it
16:39:42 <oerjan> audio-/visual- confusion again
16:40:04 <Taneb> oerjan, it's a series of stories about a conman in the distant future
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16:44:21 <olsner> oh, and since someone appeared in a westphall universe series playing themselves, the real world is also contained in someone's dream in a tv series
16:45:58 <Taneb> Doesn't that universe include the Transformers comics and M*A*S*H
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17:30:15 <Sgeo> I'm starting to blame all my computer problems on Chrome
17:30:47 <Sgeo> Sometimes mouse stops working, and I switch to console and killall chrome a few times
17:30:58 <Sgeo> Switch back, Chrome's dead and mouse can click things again
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17:35:24 <Bike> uninstall wall street
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17:56:14 <nortti> http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/1e4sns/import_xmonadlayoutnoborders/
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18:30:46 <kmc> nortti: lolol
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18:31:27 <nortti> kmc: did you know that anarchism is a real package in debian ands ubuntu
18:32:00 * kmc rages at the fact that the Haskell joke is just factually wrong, what a surprise
18:32:43 <kmc> haskell isn't classless or stateless
18:33:09 <kmc> Haskell is sort of like Scheme and C++ in that people usually mean "the tiny subset I learned in school"
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18:33:45 <kmc> there are like a dozen different mutable variable types in the std lib
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18:34:00 <kmc> plus the thing where laziness itself is based on mutating state
18:35:33 <nortti> why must netsurf compile process start from begining every time I start it again after installing some dependency part of it neede?
18:35:52 <elliott> that's just a detail of the operational implementation of laziness in terms of an imperative language
18:36:11 <elliott> it's not really fundamental to the nature of sharing as an operational detail, let alone haskell's denotational semantics
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18:37:35 <kmc> eh I think it's fundamental to the nature of sharing as an operational guarantee
18:37:52 <kmc> when you force evaluation it will be fast or slow depending on whether that value was already forced before
18:37:55 <kmc> that constitutes state
18:38:13 <kmc> sure, it doesn't have to be implemented by overwriting thunks in place with forwarding pointers or w/e
18:38:15 <elliott> sharing is really just about mumble mumble graphs
18:38:25 <kmc> yeah but the state of the graph changes as you perform pure evaluations
18:38:52 <elliott> well, also the kind of mutation involved is mutating a thing to its equal
18:39:01 <Jafet> kmc, yeah but who cares about performance
18:39:01 <elliott> which is a far cry from what is generally considered mutable state
18:39:11 <Jafet> @quote abstract.research
18:39:12 <lambdabot> Jafet says: Haskell is an abstract research language used only in academia, education, banking, stock trading, circuit design, embedded systems, cryptography, operating systems research, bioinformatic
18:39:12 <elliott> as in you can formulate it in terms that don't admit any sort of observable "change"
18:40:12 <kmc> we should probably take "phone apps" off the list
18:43:08 <kmc> Blub combines the theoretical beauty of Haskell with practical, real-world features like scalable concurrent IO, a C function interface, good Unicode support, and a large base of libraries
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18:45:21 <kmc> Don't settle for uncompromising purity — use mutable state when you really need it. We even let you mutate multiple variables in an atomic transaction. Put that in Haskell's pipe and smoke it!
18:46:11 <elliott> kmc: fyi two spaces after a dot is sin
18:46:18 <kmc> god will strike me down
18:46:50 <kmc> I should actually go through with this idea next Apr 1
18:47:22 <kmc> make a super twitter bootstrappy website for this language
18:48:39 <Sgeo> kmc, that reads like a thing that's advertising Haskell
18:49:00 <Sgeo> I could have sworn I've seen something like "Imagine Haskell but with X, Y, Z practical things... it's Haskell"
18:49:07 <kmc> http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/132/thatsthejoke.jpg
18:49:15 <kmc> yeah it's a joke I have made before
18:49:24 <kmc> maybe someone else did it too, it's p. obvious
18:49:25 <lambdabot> chromatic says: My productivity increased when Autrijus told me about Haskell's trace function. He called it a refreshing desert in the oasis of referential transparency.
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18:50:43 <kmc> let yolo = unsafePerformIO
18:50:47 <kmc> yolo jokes are still fresh right
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18:51:23 <Sgeo> kmc, I could have been remembering you telling it previously
18:51:27 <olsner> I suspect the people who said yolo have moved on to saying something else now
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18:52:08 <kmc> they've all died of drug overdoses
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18:59:08 <Sgeo> Who TF is it that hates freenode so much?
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19:03:10 <nortti> http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=74
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19:29:35 <Sgeo> "An undersized window could be leveraged to mislead the user as to the origin of a document simply by carefully truncating the hostname"
19:30:15 <zzo38> I think you would still need to know what font is used and other settings though
19:30:28 <Sgeo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581313
19:31:05 <zzo38> Resizing also has to be enabled.
19:31:26 <zzo38> Furthermore, there are settings for the address bar, whether or not the protocol is displayed, for example.
19:32:44 * Sgeo reads http://argante.sourceforge.net/concept.html
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19:57:24 <Sgeo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=561177
19:59:09 <nortti> actually, why is it even there?
19:59:20 <Jafet> Do they really have 500000 tickets
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20:06:03 <JesseH> My language is getting somewhere. ^_^ Thanks for all the support.
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20:10:27 <Deewiant> nortti: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162020
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20:12:52 <nortti> anyone here use netsurf on framebuffer?
20:14:37 <elliott> I know the answer to that already
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20:14:55 <kmc> is the answer 'yes, nortti'
20:15:25 <elliott> it was the less smartass version of that answer
20:16:49 <nortti> has anyone at least tried?
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20:22:07 <kmc> get a better dumpster computer
20:22:48 <nortti> I'm not on my t20, I'm on t61p
20:23:28 <kmc> i was using a T61 as my main machine 6 months ago
20:23:39 <kmc> with x and xmonad and chrome
20:23:41 <elliott> did you use netsurf on framebuffer
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20:28:12 <nortti> too bad I don't the t61p
20:30:03 <Sgeo> kmc, CORS has moved on from 2011 afaict
20:30:33 <kmc> do they hove CORS Lite now
20:30:54 <Sgeo> CORS doesn't send cookie data by default, which apparently was a Microsoft objection
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20:31:06 <Sgeo> Cross-origin request sharing
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20:56:28 <Sgeo> (users of Internet Explorer 8 will have unexpected trouble visiting http://www.google.com/search?q=<script>
20:59:09 <kmc> Internet Explorer 8 is known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and other reproductive harm
21:00:46 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what will it do?
21:01:45 <Sgeo> Trigger IE8's XSS filter into blocking <script> tags
21:04:39 <zzo38> Can IE8's XSS filter be disabled?
21:04:53 <Sgeo> I think the server can send a header to disable it
21:05:06 <Sgeo> (As well as probably a client-side UI option)
21:05:09 <zzo38> No I mean can the client be configured to disable it for certain servers
21:05:24 <Sgeo> Don't know if it allows doing that for specific servers
21:05:52 <Sgeo> But it's a security vulnerability in and of itself, if attacker can block specific scripts on the page from running
21:06:52 -!- Kawata has left ("I LIKE TRAINS").
21:07:15 <elliott> is that person from that trains channel i hear about
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21:19:55 <Sgeo> kmc, that epilogue...
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21:54:21 <kaus> is there a python to brainfuck converter
21:54:39 <Bike> You could chain python->c and c->brainfuck.
21:55:23 <Bike> brainfuck's support for iterators is notoriously lacking, elliott
21:55:27 <kaus> challening stuff.....would like to peak through the code
21:55:27 <JesseH> elliott, I think that is his business. :3
21:55:45 <Bike> you could just read a regular compiler
21:55:50 <Bike> i guarantee you it will be challenging
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21:58:29 <mnoqy> wow elliott way to scare off jesseH
22:00:57 <elliott> kaus: anyway I seriously doubt any such thing exists
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22:01:24 <pikhq_> It's not especially good, but nevertheless.
22:01:26 <kaus> thanks for the info guys
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22:03:05 <tromp> where is C->brainfuck compiler?
22:03:25 <FreeFull> Just write an x86 emulator in brainfuck
22:03:30 <FreeFull> And then you don't need any compilers
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22:04:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/C2BF
22:04:25 <elliott> there's also a gcc backend, but you'd have to ask ais523 for it
22:04:31 <fizzie> "Where we're going, we don't need compilers."
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22:05:12 <kaus> FreeFull: you mean to write x86 assembler to brainfuck compiler?
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22:08:35 <kmc> elliott: what's this about trains
22:08:47 <kmc> Sgeo: I didn't read the Tangled Web epilogue yet, if that's what you're talking about
22:09:02 <elliott> 22:06:52 -!- Kawata [~NightKawa@pool-71-126-14-101.bflony.east.verizon.net] has left #esoteric ["I LIKE TRAINS"]
22:09:12 <Bike> oh, that's the song
22:09:13 <elliott> and i hear about some trains channel that kmc, shachaf, probably other people?? are in
22:09:24 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw
22:09:29 <kmc> #cslounge-trains
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22:10:13 <elliott> yes i was asking if they were from there
22:10:16 <elliott> it was what you might call
22:10:24 <elliott> half because it's not really funny
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22:12:26 <fizzie> The freenode server, it is not a respond.
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22:13:44 <Vorpal> well they said something about DDoS in an earlier wallops iirc
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22:20:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't use the round robin?
22:23:34 <Vorpal> Hm, anyone tried a Befunge with rational funge-space? As in, allowing something like 3/5th of a funge cell in step. You could default all non-integer cells to space, (but still be settable with the normal instructions)
22:23:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, Deewiant: know if anyone tried that?
22:24:08 <myname> Vorpal: what are the benefits?
22:24:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: It doesn't do DNS.
22:24:36 <Vorpal> myname, a more complicated language? None really but it might allow some interesting skipping mechanics
22:25:11 <myname> you mean you just don't make one step but several?
22:25:19 <Vorpal> well there is that already
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22:26:08 <myname> it'd be interesting if you could step x/8 wide and make bitshifting to get the next instruction
22:26:27 <Vorpal> but if you put delta to 2/3, you could insert additional instructions instead, that would skip some of the integer ones in new ways
22:26:50 <Vorpal> myname, how do you mean
22:27:01 <Vorpal> I was thinking any ratio
22:27:11 <myname> i think i don't understand you
22:27:21 <Vorpal> so program could switch from 2/3 to 7/92 or whatever
22:28:09 <Vorpal> myname, anyway I don't understand what you mean with bitshifting to get the next instruction
22:28:16 <Vorpal> isn't that just an implementation detail
22:29:00 <Vorpal> from an implementation POV it would simply change from a map from x,y -> value where x and y are integers to one where x and y are rational numbers
22:29:05 <myname> my idea would be like: 12 is [49_10,50_10] which is [00110001_2,00110010_2]
22:29:22 <Vorpal> myname, I don't get it, is this from the program point of view?
22:29:41 <Vorpal> what is your notation for a stack? I normally use the one from the Funge-98 spec
22:29:43 <myname> you could now make 4/8 steps to have 00110001_2,00010011_2,00110010_2 as instructions
22:30:03 <Taneb> Aaargh, I understand both of you but can explain neither point of view
22:30:09 <Taneb> They are very different ideas
22:30:10 <Vorpal> How would that fit in one ASCII char
22:30:56 <Vorpal> in my idea, x would take (dxp dxq dyp dyq) instead of (dx dy)
22:31:15 <Taneb> Vorpal, myname's idea is that you can be half on one tile, half on another
22:31:25 <Taneb> myname, Vorpal's idea is that you can be between tiles
22:31:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it would interpolate the instruction?
22:31:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, my idea is just that the fungespace is not I^2 but Q^2
22:31:46 <Taneb> Vorpal, it would take the second half of one and the first half of another
22:32:00 <myname> but how to define what is between tiles?
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22:32:10 <Vorpal> myname, using p and g?
22:32:37 <Taneb> myname, I don't think you would be able to when writing the program
22:32:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, yeah
22:32:46 <Taneb> But you could easily when in the program
22:32:56 <Taneb> As Vorpal said, using p and g
22:33:12 <Vorpal> myname, anyway your granularity would depend on the funge cell size
22:33:30 <Vorpal> a 32-bit and 64-bit implementation would support different amounts there I presume
22:33:51 <Vorpal> Unless you stick to the rather boring Befunge-93
22:34:04 <Vorpal> IIRC the funge space is 8-bit in that, but I don't remember
22:34:33 <fizzie> If you remember correctly, but you don't remember.
22:35:24 <Vorpal> well I think both approaches has some merits
22:36:03 <Vorpal> Programming with myname's idea would certainly be more challenging, which is unusual for Befunge. IMO it is the easiest esolang to code in by far.
22:36:12 <Vorpal> Of the ones I tried anyway
22:36:33 <myname> well, befunge is hard in the way it only has a stack, but besides that i'd agree
22:36:38 <Vorpal> (again that is 98, haven't really used 93)
22:36:59 <fizzie> It has the whole playfield, not just a stack.
22:36:59 <Vorpal> myname, it has the massive fungespace as well
22:37:12 <fizzie> In 93 it's pretty tiny.
22:37:15 <Vorpal> which is at least 2^32*2^32
22:37:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't really count 93 personally
22:37:29 <myname> but i find writing brainfuck much easier
22:37:42 <myname> just because you can navigate between values so easy
22:37:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's still the default if you say "Befunge", IMO.
22:38:26 <Vorpal> right, that can be argued
22:38:36 <Vorpal> do you still mean K&R C when you say C?
22:38:47 <Vorpal> You probably don't mean C11, granted
22:39:01 <fizzie> C90 is still the default setting in many places, and that's even older.
22:39:02 <myname> Vorpal: you have to keep track to write them if you change them or to remove them from stack etc
22:39:03 <Vorpal> But I would say you probably mean C99, or the very least C89
22:39:21 <kmc> C94 for lyfe
22:39:30 <Vorpal> myname, also you can use the stack of stacks of course
22:39:43 <fizzie> myname: You can permanently keep a single value on stack, use that as the x coordinate for p/g, and there's your brainfuck tape.
22:40:12 <myname> fizzie: interesting approach
22:40:21 <Vorpal> kmc, isn't that the widechars thingy?
22:40:29 <myname> are there brainfuck interpreters in befunge?
22:40:37 <Vorpal> myname, fungot here has one
22:40:38 <fungot> Vorpal: if your code is unusual in that it allows random access? _.? i wouln't hire someone just because they let you define a ' ( b e c) d ( left-associative) (
22:40:44 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:41:01 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:41:01 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:41:22 <Vorpal> same second here, but I was before you on my end
22:41:49 <Vorpal> but you can check your bot
22:42:10 <olsner> fizzie was first here too
22:42:17 <Vorpal> elliott, well, what matters is what the bot saw
22:42:32 <fizzie> I won from fungot's viewpoint, too.
22:42:33 <fungot> fizzie: i'm sure there's some animal who makes a sound :p), it's just an omission? :( scheme-48s48.org? :)
22:42:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:43:11 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
22:43:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, when did you last update irc and fungot?
22:43:23 <fungot> Vorpal: and more plus the latin is a timeless language
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22:43:56 <Vorpal> and do you include data from the fungot style when making the fungot style?
22:43:56 <fungot> Vorpal: and more plus the latin is a timeless language. if only inequalities are supported... in non-r5rs systems, as a complete, it's actually some neat to see and for this honor that joe and jane average don't use linux
22:43:59 <fizzie> Anyway, lines 294-306 and 351-372 are approximatively the brainfuck interp.
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22:44:14 <Vorpal> Also wow, those two last lines that fungot said started the same
22:44:15 <fungot> Vorpal: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
22:44:56 <fizzie> I think I in fact keep both the brainfuck tape and instruction pointer on the (funge) stack, as the two top values.
22:45:11 <myname> i'd still love a programming game with befunge
22:45:32 <fizzie> And they haven't been updated since the initial generation.
22:45:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, you could do your Q^2, but define the value as the (rounded) bilinear interpolation from the four surrounding values. (Probably would be pretty pointless.)
22:46:25 <Vorpal> It would make it nice for texture lookup with g though!
22:47:07 <Vorpal> hm I should totally implement a GL fingerprint
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22:48:10 <Vorpal> Would be easy too, L - load shader, T - load texture, S - set shader variables, R - render frame
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22:48:35 <Vorpal> I guess V - load vertex data too
22:49:04 <Vorpal> Man, modern OpenGL is so easy
22:49:22 <fizzie> It's not very nice until you get to write the shaders in a Fungeoid language too.
22:49:41 <fizzie> Or was it monoids, I forget what's easy.
22:49:57 <Vorpal> monads aren't all that easy IMO
22:50:17 <elliott> it's monoids that are so easy
22:50:31 <fizzie> `run grep easy wisdom/*
22:50:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/monoids:Monoids are the easy version of categories.
22:50:34 <Vorpal> Ah, should look them up then
22:52:07 <Vorpal> Anyway, what would be really interesting, but rather problematic, would be a R² fungespace, or a C² even
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22:52:40 <Vorpal> Annoying uncomputable numbers though
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22:55:54 <fizzie> Incidentally, was there someone from Tampere here? (I was just wondering about our geographical coverage of Finland.)
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22:58:02 <fizzie> Maybe that was that ion dude.
22:58:13 <FreeFull> Am I the only one here from High Wycombe?
22:58:42 <mnoqy> what's high wycombe
22:58:51 <fizzie> I think it's some sort of a unit?
22:58:58 <fizzie> Maybe it's something related to capacitance.
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22:59:27 <elliott> i'm a bit of a high wycombe
22:59:41 <mnoqy> is that a drug joke
23:00:50 <FreeFull> Used to be called Chepping Wycombe
23:01:18 <fizzie> "wyke, v.1. Obs. (Of obscure origin and meaning: not obviously connected with Old English wícan.)" (OED.)
23:01:54 <fizzie> One quotation: c1325 in G. L. Brook Harley Lyrics (1968) 60 "Ofte when y syke, wiþ care y am þourhsoht when y wake, y wyke, of serewe is al mi þoht."
23:02:40 <elliott> i sing that song every day
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23:05:41 <fizzie> I think I'll sleeb too, nights. (Have to wake up early tomorrow to socialize a bit, it's a day.
23:05:44 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_day#Dates_around_the_world man, that day gets arranged at every which day around the world.
23:06:23 <kmc> "Will Bitcoin Change How Kids Learn to Count?"
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23:07:21 <Bike> "Last Sunday of May (sometimes first Sunday of June if it's Pentecost)" holidays r dum
23:09:11 <elliott> wow there is an actual wired article
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23:09:37 <Bike> is it serious?
23:09:50 <elliott> thankfully chromium crashes when i open it
23:10:03 <elliott> (please buy me a new computer)
23:10:29 <kmc> it's barely about bitcoin it's just some generalized gripes about Kids These Days, with "Bitcoin" tacked on to sex it up
23:10:45 <pikhq_> Cause Bitcoin is the new hotness.
23:10:49 <Bike> have you seen all the photoshops of the TIME cover
23:10:59 <kmc> i saw one that was pretty good
23:11:30 <Bike> no, they had a very Kids These Days cover and people were mocking it
23:12:04 <mnoqy> i was quickly glancing through here and i misread "mocking" as "smoking" and i had to do a double take
23:12:27 <kmc> https://twitter.com/EARNEST_CYBORG9/status/332589668577202176/photo/1 was the one i saw
23:12:35 <Sgeo> I just learned of a way to fix a security hole I had while not needing to break my API's contract
23:12:41 * Sgeo is a derp for not seeing it sooner
23:12:43 <Bike> elliott: http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/518bb62fecad042b6b000000/heres-the-new-time-magazine-cover-about-how-millennials-will-save-us-all.jpg
23:12:46 <kmc> smoking a copy of Time may give you cancer but that's still better than reading it
23:13:03 <mnoqy> i cant believe someone would make that thing
23:13:11 <Bike> big daddy dronemaster, not bad
23:13:12 <mnoqy> the one bike linked i mean
23:13:13 <elliott> Bike: more like the meme generation Am I rihGHTE?? ?
23:13:41 <Bike> i think "millenial" would be preferable to that elliott
23:13:54 <kmc> smash the gerontocracy
23:14:12 <Bike> uh kmc you're like ninety years old in elliott years? you are the man
23:14:42 <elliott> even older in mnoqy years. 100?
23:14:53 <Bike> anyway the more fun thing making fun of it i saw was a collection of "kids these days" covers from the last fifty years or so, all unedited
23:15:14 <Bike> there was one about "the video generation" that had a bunch of people with huge-ass 80s video cameras
23:15:58 <Bike> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/static/img/upload/2013/05/09/video_.JPG ah here
23:16:09 <Bike> wow, how did i not notice the exercise getup
23:16:40 <kmc> the girl in the front?
23:16:47 <kmc> she looks like an anime character
23:17:04 <Bike> man those legwarmers
23:17:14 <kmc> Bike: do you have a link to the full collection
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23:19:53 <Bike> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/05/me-generation-time/65054/
23:21:00 <Bike> " It's like doing a study of toddlers and declaring those born since 2010 are Generation Sociopath: Kids These Days Will Pull Your Hair, Pee On Walls, Throw Full Bowls of Cereal Without Even Thinking of the Consequences"
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23:22:48 <Bike> ok confession time
23:23:00 <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve
23:23:06 <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time
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23:23:57 <Bike> holy shit, the quote about dow
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23:28:26 <Bike> darn bratty kids don't understand making a living :-(
23:29:17 <kmc> "Whether his art is any good or not, my artist friend on food stamps contributes more to society than the traders at Lehman brothers, by simply not wrecking the global financial system."
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23:32:01 <kmc> did you see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4YyI6_y6kw "The video is generated by sending the left and right channels of the music you are hearing to an oscilloscope in XY-mode."
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23:36:09 <Bike> kmc: darn was hoping for real oscilloscope
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23:49:20 <elliott> "Because many display devices have finite resolution limits" -- Google
23:49:32 <elliott> slightly worried that google have a secret infinite resolution display they're not telling us about
23:50:05 <Bike> what would that even mean
23:50:12 <Bike> has google gone post-quantum
23:50:35 <elliott> i don't want to know what it means
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23:53:38 <elliott> okay I am sick to death of chrome freezing for no reason when I open specific pages
23:53:57 <Phantom___Hoover> maybe it's something to do with the million billion tabs you have open
23:55:01 <Bike> what kind of tabs does an elliott have open
23:55:18 <kmc_> vector display has a sort of infinite resolution
23:55:20 <elliott> and they freeze the browser
23:55:23 <elliott> and if i open those pages later
23:55:24 <Bike> yes but what are those tabs!
23:55:31 <elliott> it's nothing specific it just
23:55:33 <Bike> what is the shit!
23:55:42 <Bike> ok i'm not asking about your freezing i just want to know what you have open
23:55:45 <elliott> why are you so interested in my browsing habits Bike!
23:55:48 <Bike> your freezing can go fuck itself imo
23:56:45 <elliott> are you obsessed with me Bike
23:57:06 <Bike> ti's just natural bikely curiosity
23:57:57 <Bike> don't make this weird
23:59:02 <Phantom___Hoover> i keep forgetting, has anyone managed to shoehorn a 'village bicycle' joke into this channel
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23:59:43 <Bike> by which i mean no because this channels' sense of humor is terrible?
00:00:28 <Bike> and i'm this channel. checkmate
00:00:38 <kmc> we can all be terrible together
00:02:35 -!- elliott has set topic: we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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00:17:03 <Bike> you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That
00:17:40 <Bike> look if i know anything about programming it's that no one follows the standard
00:17:55 <Bike> what's your secret, god
00:18:15 <Bike> maybe god just smites anything with too different a translation.
00:18:26 <Bike> billions of uppity prokaryotes smited every day
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00:34:42 <elliott> Bike: god is the only person who can enforce MUST NOTs
00:34:56 <elliott> they should rename MUST NOT to WHY NOT TRY
00:36:09 <Sgeo> OpenBSD is still putting out songs :)
00:36:21 <elliott> openbsd still committing crimes against music
00:36:53 <Sgeo> http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html
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00:37:53 <Bike> THOU SHALT NOT
00:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 00:17:03: <Bike> you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That
00:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> well isn't that, like, the first thing you have to develop to self-replicate
00:38:43 <elliott> no first you need to write the tests
00:38:45 <Sgeo> Pond-erosa Puff wouldn't take no guff
00:39:07 <Bike> Well, that depends if you buy the RNA world thing
00:39:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i told you to watch farscape, fucking watch it, it's way better
00:39:15 <Bike> in which case RNA would be first
00:39:15 <Sgeo> Pond-erosa Puff has nothing to do with Doctor Who
00:39:37 <Sgeo> Well, you also told me to stop reading Homestuck.
00:39:40 <Bike> but i don't see why cell membraney things couldn't have come around first, at least hypothetically
00:39:43 <Sgeo> Which, I guess I did.
00:39:57 <Bike> more like homestuck stopped reading you (think about it)
00:40:26 <Bike> anyway the level of variation is interesting, mitochondria and plastids have slightly different schemes
00:40:31 <Bike> as do a few obscure fungi and things like that
00:41:20 <Bike> roughly a fucking long time ago
00:41:34 <Bike> (iunno, cambrian maybe)
00:41:46 <Sgeo> What OpenBSD song should I listen to?
00:41:56 <Bike> cambrian's a pretty good guess for when anything that fundamental happened imo
00:43:16 <Bike> "around 1,500 million years ago" says wikipedia
00:43:25 <Bike> so way precambrian oops
00:47:27 * Sgeo might go start reading Watchmen
00:51:13 <Bike> not a watchman fan?
00:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> no he's just COMMITTED to not watching farscape even though i've told him a thousand times
00:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i am forced to conclude that he has an inverted sense of good
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01:02:14 -!- ?unknown? has set topic: is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | I +JmU UTF-7 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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01:07:37 <zzo38> That doesn't seem a proper conclusion given the available premises.
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01:09:43 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: one will tend to watch things that are good, and avoid things that are bad
01:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> premise: sgeo watches doctor who and does not watch farscape
01:10:08 <coppro> I dispute premises 2 and 3
01:10:42 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, if I had time I would watch Farscape
01:10:50 <Sgeo> ...it occurs to me that I do have time.
01:11:06 <zzo38> I don't know about premises 1 and 2, but it can be a matter of opinion or of context, and there are other reasons too so 3 is not perfect either. Also, different people might like different thing, even if one is good otherwise.
01:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> you have the time you are spending watching doctor who where are you not understanding this
01:11:29 <Bike> your syllogism's showing some serious holes phantom!!
01:11:54 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I will watch more Farscape.
01:12:01 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I especially disagree with the conclusion that premise 3 applies to sgeo
01:12:03 <Sgeo> Although does Amazon keep track of watched videos?
01:12:11 <coppro> it's been a long time since I assumed sgeo to be a rational actor
01:12:34 <Sgeo> If not, that would make it annoying to keep track of which ep I'm on, unless I stick with Hulu
01:13:08 <Sgeo> What have I done that's so irrational?
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02:51:54 <elliott> Bike: teach me about china
02:52:42 <Bike> what do u want 2 kno
02:53:00 <elliott> well i just realised i have no idea how communist china came to be a thing and that's pretty embarrassing!
02:53:32 <Bike> elliott: well ok lessee
02:53:34 <elliott> i also know like 0 chinese alt. japanese
02:53:59 <pikhq> So I'm not gonna type it in right, sue me.
02:54:00 <Bike> in 1910 china was ruled by the qing dynasty, who were foreign (fsvo "foreign") manchus ruling over the han
02:54:19 <Bike> in 1911 the xinhua revolution happened and the monarchy got fucked
02:54:30 <Lumpio-> No I'm laughing at the fact that they call themselves a democracy
02:54:38 <elliott> i skimmed the wikipedia article ``chinese civil war'' and it seems that roughly half of it is usa. even in chinese history there is no escape
02:54:57 <pikhq> They don't. They call themselves a People's Republic.
02:55:18 <Bike> the republic was stable for about five minutes before the "warlord era" started, which was fucking crazy
02:55:22 <pikhq> You'll notice there is no 民主主義 in there.
02:55:32 <Bike> lots of generals/warlords/etc ruling oer their own areas, killing people, etc
02:55:47 <elliott> love those five minute republics
02:56:00 <Lumpio-> Republic, democracy, close enough
02:56:04 <Lumpio-> They probably translated it wrong.
02:56:26 <zzo38> If making a contest for text adventure game, and people can vote on the different things about the game, what should be the possible things to vote on?
02:56:29 <Bike> by like uh, 1930 probably, there was a "«'stable'»" group called the Kuomintang, or KMT for short
02:56:34 <Bike> and there were also commies (not yet under mao)
02:56:35 <pikhq> In modern times a "republic" is a non-monarchal state.
02:56:43 <pikhq> And they are definitely not under a monarchy.
02:57:00 <Bike> then japan invaded (oh shit!!) and set up a puppet state in manchuria (i.e. the northern... half... kinda)
02:57:02 * Sgeo goes to watch some Farscape
02:57:21 <Bike> the KMT and communists "cooperated" to get the japanese out, which they didn't do
02:57:42 <pikhq> elliott: Imperial Japan was basically a "fuck you we wanna conquer the world" state.
02:57:56 <Bike> then WWII happened (or like, it was part of WWII, or well fuck history) and japan lost as you may have heard
02:58:09 <elliott> Bike: michael bay told me all about that
02:58:17 <Bike> the soviet union declared war on japan and - i want to emphasize this - invaded manchuria and took it over in eleven days
02:58:24 <elliott> what was the kmt's deal also
02:58:42 <elliott> i hear they're taiwan now (file under: things i read on wikipedia five minutes ago)
02:58:58 <Bike> the kmt were at that time a semi-fascist, capitalistish, democratishsorta party that the West liked
02:59:09 <pikhq> Read: "not communist".
02:59:11 <elliott> so like america then :-D :-D :-D
02:59:23 <Bike> anyway so the soviet union invaded the north and as you might expect they were more sympathetic to the communists
02:59:53 <Bike> and then the chinese civil war happened, again, and a bajillion people died and the KMT retreated to Taiwan
03:00:16 <Bike> (and taiwan's history is itself kind of crazy)
03:00:36 <elliott> and then just like, communist party said "job done, time for Complete Communism" and that was it??
03:00:49 <Bike> oh, i missed the long march. well back in the 30s the KMT had some big anti-commie campaign and the communists went on this horrible grueling march during which Mao was leaderful and that's how he got into power.
03:01:13 <elliott> note to self: help out with march, become communist leader???
03:01:15 <Bike> Well, yeah, after pushing the KMT out they were more or less in control, insofar as you can be in control of an area the size of China less than a decade after the most violent war in recorded history.
03:01:39 <elliott> but they didn't even do the communist ritual or anything???
03:01:51 <elliott> no WONDER china is such a mess [laugh track]
03:02:11 <Bike> if you want to get into history in the communist era i really don't know that as well (which is saying something)
03:02:39 <Bike> but like the great leap forward happened, durin which mao and other leaders did some increeeeedibly stupid things, such as using lysenko's theories (years after the soviets had kind of abandoned them)
03:02:57 <Bike> stupid things killed like what, 50 million people probably, from starvation etc
03:03:03 <Bike> imo that kinda sucked.
03:03:55 <Bike> Then after that Mao was like "food? NO man what you need is ENCOURAGEMENT" and the cultural revolution happened, which like burned down temples and stuff but got those kids PUMPED about COMMUNISM that's RAD!
03:04:00 <elliott> it's a good thing nobody has invented a time machine because imo the guilt re: all the stuff you have to spend a lot of effort going to fix would be totally lame
03:04:21 <Bike> did you read that story "wikihistory" that was on boing boing like thirty years ago
03:04:24 <elliott> wow i'm feeling pumped about communism already
03:04:38 <elliott> if i did i didn't get it from boing boing though
03:04:58 <Bike> you might remember that the AsianAvenger guy in it was concerned about a pre-xinhua thing called the Taiping Rebellion
03:05:22 <Bike> in the 1800s some guy declared himself to be jesus's brother and started a rebellion that got uh... "more people than WWI" killed roughly
03:05:43 <Bike> basically the qing dynasty was utterly fucked there for a while
03:05:49 <elliott> i think the main problem is that china has too many people
03:05:58 <elliott> then less people would die when bad things happen
03:06:14 <Bike> well elliott if you'd been paying attention you'd notice that for a while they've been trying their damnedest to reduce the number of people!
03:06:41 <mnoqy> something about too many dudes and not enough gal's. cant wait till they all die off
03:06:42 <elliott> as if i would pay attention
03:06:55 <mnoqy> "that'll be exciting"
03:07:01 <Bike> good because i made that all up for a fantasy story
03:07:16 <mnoqy> !!!!!!!!why would you do that
03:07:20 <mnoqy> i want my history REAL
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03:08:08 <Bike> i should probably mention joseph needham i guess
03:08:21 <Bike> he was like a chemist or whatever that wrote this thirty volume set on the history of technology in china
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03:08:48 <Bike> basically the reason for that "wow ancient china actually had a pretty good thing going" you hopefully had in school (before that it was racister probably??)
03:09:04 <Bike> well not ancient but like, old.
03:09:07 <Bike> "ancient"'s a dumb word
03:09:25 <elliott> man i honestly don't remember anything about ancient hcina in school
03:09:30 <elliott> but i like paid zero attention to history
03:09:42 <Bike> well... i can't blame you i mean there's a lot of it
03:09:44 <elliott> all i remember is like infinite numbers of fucking tudor king shits
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03:10:05 <elliott> successfully ensured i would never care about a king of england ever
03:10:15 <Bike> maybe i should sum up some "key facts" you can use to pretend to be informed to your newsreading pals
03:10:36 <Bike> like... tibet and the northwest (xinjiang) have been independentish at various points
03:10:51 <mnoqy> i think i have to take an american history sometime but uuugh why american history that's probably soooo boring
03:10:55 <elliott> oh right what's it with tibet
03:11:05 <Bike> tibet was a theocracy in the mountains
03:11:12 <Bike> as you might expect they weren't like... important
03:11:17 <mnoqy> more boring than tudor king shits??? quite possibly
03:11:38 <elliott> only theocracy ruled by a llama
03:11:54 <Bike> at some point the british got in there and were like "well, yeah, we'll control your diplomacy or whatever" and the leaders were like "ok"? maybe had a little war, i dunno, i don't think tibet's had a significant military since the 1300s
03:12:17 <Bike> in like 1950 the PRC (that's communist china) took over and well there's been "some argument" about that
03:12:25 <elliott> i hear it's a bit unpopular yes
03:12:35 <elliott> why did they take over (given: theocracy in the mountains; not... important)
03:12:45 <elliott> i guess probably: communism
03:12:51 <Bike> yeah i'm not sure really
03:13:10 <elliott> best of both worlds: sharing AND llama
03:13:23 <Bike> anyway i want to mention that the northwest of china is worth remembering; for one it has a huge muslim population
03:13:44 <Bike> so like, keep that in mind, china isn't all "ancient buddhist wisdom" or whatever
03:14:57 <Bike> hm, i guess they took over kind of because it was in a dumb limbo situation and just... why not, it had been part of china at various points anyway
03:16:33 <Bike> that's most of what i got. way more interesting than tudor shits imo
03:17:55 <kmc> "I also have this machine plugged into a Kill-a-Watt I had bought when I thought I was going to do the Tweet-A-Watt project (unfinished because I accidentally crushed the XBee under a keg)"
03:18:48 <mnoqy> btw whats a tudor shit
03:19:26 <Bike> probably a shit by the tudor dynasty? i never had british history in school
03:19:50 <Bike> i think there's an HBO programme about tudor shits
03:21:38 <mnoqy> "Having a tudor shit in a tudor robe #classic"
03:21:56 <mnoqy> Mar 7, 2010 – Dane tudor shit... Dane tudor shit... View Full Size Image. Details; Share. Views: 444. Score: -3. Title: Dane tudor shit... Uploader: RoguePube ...
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03:22:17 <Bike> elliott what do they teach you
03:23:39 <mnoqy> https://twitter.com/mkpepper/status/244427490968350720/photo/1
03:23:53 <kmc> did we stop nutsplatting
03:24:11 <mnoqy> ye. now we're tudor shitting
03:24:20 <kmc> 420 shit tudors everyday
03:24:49 <Bike> what's... nutsplatting
03:25:39 <mnoqy> what does it sound like
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03:47:53 <kmc> shachaf: hichaf
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04:06:48 <shachaf> Any reason for the hichaf?
04:07:04 <shachaf> Also I should probably hilight <kmc>.*chaf\b.*
04:16:46 <kmc> no reason really
04:16:49 <kmc> just sayin' hi
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04:36:50 <elliott> hey what happened the topic I set
04:36:56 -!- elliott has set topic: we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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05:14:51 <mnoqy> shachaf: btw what's a hero
05:16:29 <Bike> hero solves triangles and makes jets and doesn't afraid of anything, iirc
05:17:39 <mnoqy> shachaf: elliott thinks i should be more like you. can you teach me how?
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07:03:14 <zzo38> Have you seen ifMUD?
07:08:44 <Sgeo> Is there also an elseMUD
07:09:03 <Bike> uninteractive fiction mud
07:09:25 <Bike> you just sit and watch some NPCs talk about nonexistent real lives and fight monsters and roleplay furry ex or whatever happens in muds
07:10:12 <Taneb> Bike, there's a few of those doing that
07:10:30 <Taneb> There's a company called BBC that makes a few nice ones
07:10:52 <Bike> you're a sick man, elliott.
07:13:40 <oklopol> show of hands who has a furry ex
07:15:20 <zzo38> What if your hands fell off?
07:15:52 <Bike> presumably you would no longer be as concerned with displaying your furry ex status
07:16:39 <oklopol> zzo38: then you cannot vote
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09:02:28 <ion> fizzie dude: Yeah, it was me.
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10:14:10 <nortti> "systemd, [...] is an all-devouring octopus monster about crawl out of the sea and eat Tokyo and spit it out as a giant binary logfile."
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11:13:36 <Vorpal> nortti, harsh words, does it deserve that?
11:14:30 <Vorpal> Also I think my computer is not thermally sound, I'm compiling gcc at -j4, and CPU temp is at 73 C
11:14:31 <Vorpal> Core 2: +73.0°C (high = +80.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
11:15:26 <Vorpal> And the case fans are on max, that seems to prevent it from raising further
11:15:43 <elliott> people just like to get upset about systemd because <linux nerds>
11:15:48 <elliott> it's terrible just like every part of linux is terrible
11:16:20 <elliott> but i don't miss the seconds of my bootup process and the control/monitoring tools work just fine
11:16:34 <Vorpal> But this is worrying, since I'm considering getting new case fans (one one them makes weird clicking noises). The one I'm looking at has slightly less airflow than my current one, so eeeh...
11:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I can't say I'm bothered with my current boot time enough to use systemd. Less than 30 seconds from grub to X login prompt is fine by me
11:18:22 <Vorpal> Most of that is spent on DHCP anyway
11:19:40 <elliott> i didn't switch to systemd because i cared about my boot time
11:19:45 <elliott> i switched because my distro switched to it
11:19:59 <Vorpal> Which distro do you currently use?
11:20:58 <elliott> the switch also eliminated all the "distro-specific" config stuff for things like the network and timezone and so on, which is nice, because it means the same way of configuring things will transfer if I switch to another distro
11:21:27 <Vorpal> systemd replaces cron, syslog and a few more doesn't it?
11:21:39 <elliott> also i no longer have to add myself to random groups to get things working which is nice.
11:22:03 <elliott> Vorpal: well, I think distros still ship cron, even though systemd has timer-y stuff which could replace it in theory
11:22:06 <elliott> it does do the logging thing
11:22:20 <elliott> (and yes the journal file it logs to is binary. but i don't care. the querying tools work fine.)
11:22:23 <Vorpal> So it doesn't read standard crontab then?
11:22:26 <elliott> it can also forward to syslog I hear
11:22:34 <Vorpal> hm I thought consolekit or whatever handled the "random group" stuff
11:22:39 <elliott> Vorpal: well, that *would* be pointless
11:22:43 <elliott> why would you just roll cron into process 1?
11:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know, people seem to complain that systemd is doing too much anyway so meh
11:23:08 <elliott> systemd is basically like OS X's launchd, if you know anything about it
11:23:17 <Vorpal> I do like the principle of "one program does one thing, and does it well"
11:23:34 <elliott> it doesn't matter how much a program does. nobody cares about that. and no system has followed the one tool for the job philosophy for the past several decades
11:23:39 <Vorpal> I'm not much of an OS X expert no, but I understood it basically combines several services into one
11:23:46 <elliott> something like upstart is already a big mess. it doesn't matter
11:23:58 <Vorpal> yeah, I don't use upstart either, I'm on Debian
11:24:16 <Vorpal> It is ubuntu that uses upstart
11:24:23 <Vorpal> and yes, upstart is even more of a mess than systemd
11:24:36 <elliott> I think Debian were planning to move to systemd or something too.
11:25:04 <elliott> another thing that is nice is that the services are not defined in massive hideous duplicated ad-hoc shell scripts
11:25:17 <elliott> say what you like about ini files, they're a hell of a lot less mess.
11:25:20 <Vorpal> Does systemd handle network too? Or does it leave that to network-manager or whatever?
11:25:41 <elliott> it handles my network, yes
11:25:43 <Vorpal> upstart files are quite nice too
11:26:24 <elliott> i think it can like integrate with network manager or whatever
11:26:34 <elliott> $ systemctl status dhcpcd@eth0.service
11:26:34 <elliott> dhcpcd@eth0.service - dhcpcd on eth0
11:26:34 <elliott> Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/dhcpcd@.service; enabled)
11:26:34 <elliott> Active: active (running) since Sat 2013-05-11 13:30:02 BST; 22h ago
11:26:34 <elliott> Process: 250 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/dhcpcd -q -w %I (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
11:26:38 <Vorpal> Hm, that will be annoying to transfer on my RPi when the time comes. It has static IP, servers an IPv6 tunnel and does crazy "use different routing tables for different local UIDs" to route one user through a VPN tunnel
11:26:40 <elliott> CGroup: name=systemd:/system/dhcpcd@.service/dhcpcd@eth0.service
11:26:42 <elliott> └─311 /usr/sbin/dhcpcd -q -w eth0
11:27:44 <elliott> hm, nix switched to systemd. I wonder if it's matured at all since the last time I looked at it.
11:28:18 <Vorpal> NixOS? Kind of cool, but iirc rather immature, a lot of missing packages and so on
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11:28:40 <elliott> i should just switch to windows or something. works for spj.
11:29:43 <Vorpal> Anyway windows (win 7 at least) is much slower to boot than Linux from the same HDD. Usually takes minute from login screen until the OS is actually responsive.
11:30:53 <Vorpal> Is it someone I should know of?
11:31:08 <Vorpal> Okay, what is he known for then?
11:32:17 * oerjan prepares elliott for post-traumatic Vorpal contact treatment
11:32:37 <myname> .oO( sir vorpal kickass'o
11:32:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Peyton_Jones
11:32:58 <elliott> oerjan: you could kick him for not knowing who spj is.
11:33:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v oerjan.
11:33:24 <Vorpal> I don't keep track of names really, why should I?
11:33:32 <Vorpal> So he is a haskell guy, okay.
11:33:34 <oerjan> elliott: i suppose, but then i'd have to actually log into my nick first
11:34:24 <Vorpal> Nice bowtie in that photo btw
11:34:25 <myname> anybody here reading goblins comic?
11:35:20 <elliott> oerjan: ah, if only I had been opped...
11:36:44 <oerjan> myname: my reading of goblins came to an abrupt stop at the point when Kore killed that dwarf child hth
11:38:22 <oerjan> it got a whole lot too dark for me at that point hth
11:39:07 <myname> well yeah, but that's part of what makes it this good
11:39:57 <oerjan> similarly, i took a year-long hiatus on oots after the familicide event.
11:40:30 <myname> i wasn't that far at oots
11:40:41 <myname> have to find some good way for reading it
11:41:07 <myname> there is no usable general webcomic reader for android :(
11:41:14 <oerjan> which is why i only mentioned the word, not who or what it involved.
11:47:52 <oerjan> <JesseH> My language is getting somewhere. ^_^ Thanks for all the support. <-- #esoteric, the channel that splits off actual on-topic discussion.
11:51:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric The channel which splits off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:52:05 <elliott> i sense an additional #esoteric
11:52:25 <oerjan> elliott: i think the discussion happened in #jesseh
11:52:46 <oerjan> not that i actually was there, mind you
11:54:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel which splits off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:54:42 <oerjan> elliott: apparently webchat doesn't support including the actual channel in the /topic command
11:55:28 <oerjan> while in irssi you have to double it if you actually want it at the start of the topic
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12:08:39 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> ok confession time <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time
12:08:47 <HackEgo> 1035) <Bike> ok confession time <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time
12:09:44 <HackEgo> 409) <elliott> God, I sure do hate Apple and their header files that only include the functions they're specified to.
12:09:44 <HackEgo> 850) <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float);
12:09:45 <HackEgo> 963) <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
12:09:45 <HackEgo> 112) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
12:09:46 <HackEgo> 126) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
12:13:03 <oerjan> `pastequotes <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives
12:13:04 <elliott> at approximately 963 quote standard time
12:13:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4074
12:13:26 <oerjan> `pastelogs <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives
12:14:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27970
12:14:57 <oerjan> `pastelogs As Brainfuck derivatives
12:15:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12399
12:15:52 <oerjan> 2013-03-02.txt:22:41:06: <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
12:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> you know if fizzie was doing this he'd have had the answer in 30 seconds and told me what colour jumper i was wearing
12:17:39 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony
12:18:07 <oerjan> nortti: hey there, i was just planning to let Phantom_Hoover look it up himself for that comment
12:18:15 <nortti> (just skimmed trough the logs from around the correct point)
12:20:24 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That <-- i would assume that it is because whenever an organism _does_ change it, suddenly a large number of its proteins stop working simultaneously hth
12:20:26 <nortti> (it=netsurf framebuffer version trough sdl)
12:23:46 <zzo38> Another computer game idea I have is based on a diagram I remember that someone drew for me once. It was a directed graph; the nodes were drawn as faces, some of which had wavy lines above. The faces without wavy lines represented good monsters and the ones with wavy lines represented bad monsters. Probably additional kinds of pieces should be added, though.
12:23:53 <nortti> ok, correction to above. it starts up, in a 800x600 box, with invisible text
12:27:57 <FreeFull> If they are good should you still call them monsters?
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12:40:49 <myname> zzo38: and what is the game behind that?
12:41:15 <zzo38> myname: I don't know, but some game played on a directed graph, I suppose.
12:42:04 <zzo38> I think you can have a free category of a simple digraph which results in a thin category, and that is the same as a partial ordering.
12:42:06 <myname> there are plenty of them, even if most of them aren't presented as such
12:50:50 <zzo38> Presumably these directed graphs form the data of a level of the game, or there could be some additional data needed to make up a level too (such as time limits or starting inventory or whatever).
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12:59:03 <zzo38> (I think only a free category of a directed acyclic graph is thin?)
12:59:26 <zzo38> (Unless you specifically make the other ones thin too, that is.)
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13:28:16 <zzo38> I invented different bishop adjust rule: If you have exactly two bishops on board, both standing on the same color square, then bishops have the additional move of one spcae orthogonal; capturing is also permitted with this move. If used in FIDE chess, this might mean that it is possible in some circumstances that promoting to a queen won't give check but underpromotion to a bishop will give check.
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13:57:15 <oerjan> and i didn't find it anywhere else with google, either
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13:57:57 <elliott> btw cpressey's github is still up
13:58:01 <elliott> presumably he is emailable and stuff
13:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> can i check if i'm banned in a channel without trying to join it
13:59:34 <boily> hi all from Québec City!
13:59:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what channel is it
14:00:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you are banned on #esoteric? why did no one tell me!
14:02:22 <oerjan> nops are so easy, i wonder if they are monoids
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14:06:27 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> does quebec exist though <-- i hear they are frequently trying to separate from canada, i assume they're tired of not existing.
14:07:18 <elliott> oerjan: btw I hope you will still love me if I spontaneously turn into conor mcbride overnight.
14:07:36 <oerjan> oh. that may be a bit much to handle.
14:08:49 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: it's not quite exclusively French anymore. 20% of canada's population is from an ethnic minority.
14:09:42 <boily> (we have two Montréals going on: mainly non-French west of St-Laurent Blvd., and mainly French east of it.)
14:12:51 <oerjan> hm possibly montreal might exist, it's in the name
14:13:36 <boily> oerjan: it looks real. it feels real. but I fear it may only be a lavish illusion.
14:14:35 <elliott> montreal is a place where everyone speaks french and is in a post-rock band
14:14:38 <elliott> and i'm pretty sure no place can actually exist
14:14:45 <elliott> the name is likely a clever indirection
14:17:32 <elliott> yes, says you, but you also says you from montreal.
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14:21:37 <zzo38> What is the mathematical structure called of the transit system of this game? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchessonamasstr
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14:32:58 <shachaf> oerjan: What's a word that rhymes with oerjan?
14:33:15 <oerjan> no, what does not rhyme with oerjan hth
14:33:46 <shachaf> Please give me a word that rhymes with oerjan hth
14:34:09 <Vorpal> I'm so used to different coding styles nowdays that I have trouble reading my own old C code.
14:35:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: You do? What styles did you use what did other used?
14:36:00 <Vorpal> there is the question of newline or not before {, how to indent, stuff like that
14:36:32 <zzo38> Which did you use?
14:37:31 <Vorpal> I used the linux kernel coding convention basically, go look it up if you want, I'm kind of busy debugging this
14:38:58 <zzo38> There is also if when declaring a pointer variable, to put a space before or after or both sides of asterisk; I find all three ways confusing so I omit both spaces.
14:40:14 <zzo38> Often it is written like "int *x;" but this is confusing if there is an initialization value, since then it might seem to be initializing *x but actually it is the initial value of x not of *x.
14:42:11 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
14:42:33 <olsner> I think the space-on-both-sides alternative happens when people switch between int* x or int *x too often and get confused
14:44:23 <zzo38> O, maybe that is what it is. Somehow I find space on neither sides to be clearest. What way do you use in your own C programs?
14:46:55 <olsner> I think I used to do space before
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14:48:58 <Vorpal> zzo38, I use type *var, *var2; and so on. The logical way is to put the * next to the variable name, since if you declare multiple variables separated with , type* var1, var2; would look confusing
14:49:10 <Vorpal> since that would make var1 a pointer, but not var2
14:49:19 <shachaf> Times Square is the only neighborhood with zoning ordinances requiring building owners to display illuminated signs.[27]
14:49:41 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know that, which is why "int* x" is confusing. However, because of initialization values, "int *x" is also confusing.
14:51:28 <Vorpal> Also I'm more used to hg than bzr now
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16:35:11 <coppro> #esoteric is the best channel
16:35:15 <coppro> but ##English is the weirdest
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17:16:20 <olsner> is that a double name, like Gregor-Ian Chants?
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17:40:57 <zzo38> I don't like the decision of GCC to not delete empty loops. for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++); should be deleted, in my opinion; if you want it to force not to delete, you should write: for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile;
17:41:23 <zzo38> Therefore I think such a statement should be added in C.
17:42:19 <Bike> why isn't it deleted?
17:42:19 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:43:28 <zzo38> GNU C doesn't delete it because you might put the loop to make it delay. I think that is not a good reason (it is also usually not the best way to make a delay); that is why I think there ought to be the statement which you can instead explicitly tell it not to delete the empty loop, like that.
17:43:41 <shachaf> Gregor: make mnoqy come back
17:44:00 <olsner> I guess gcc has special rules for loops that look like delay loops
17:44:10 <zzo38> You can cause it to be optimized even less by declaring the variable ix as volatile too.
17:44:41 <zzo38> olsner: And I don't like that kind of things. What would you think? Maybe it should be an option?
17:52:08 <fizzie> My GCC does delete that loop.
17:52:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/bUcS
17:52:38 <zzo38> The documentation says they don't want to make it delete that loop. Is the document wrong?
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17:55:47 <fizzie> Perhaps they've decided not to maintain the distinction between loops that became empty after optimization, and loops that were written empty; and the documentation has become outdated as a result. Who knows. (Folks on #gcc?)
18:00:53 <Vorpal> <zzo38> GNU C doesn't delete it because you might put the loop to make it delay. I think that is not a good reason (it is also usually not the best way to make a delay); that is why I think there ought to be the statement which you can instead explicitly tell it not to delete the empty loop, like that. <-- it is a reasonable way to create a delay in embedded code for some platforms
18:01:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, there is not really any reason to write a loop like that normally though
18:01:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, in some case it is; I didn't mean that it is *never* the way to write the delay.
18:02:08 <zzo38> Still, I don't like that optimization and that is why I think there should be the command "volatile;" which can be used if you do want to tell it to not be deleted.
18:02:35 <Vorpal> well they can't really add that to the C standard, a compiler intrinsic function would make more sense here
18:03:22 <zzo38> They can make it a extension when compiling in GNU mode, if you want to, though.
18:03:53 <Bike> can you not just have ix volatile
18:04:22 <zzo38> Yes, that works too, but maybe you don't want to disable that many optimizations. (I did mention that.)
18:06:57 <zzo38> If ix is not volatile, but you write "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile;" but ix is not used at all afterward, then the compiler still has to ensure when writing the code surrounding the loop that it will execute the body 10000 times, even if it is empty.
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18:13:59 <Bike> hm, why are you writing an empty loop anyway, or are you expecting this to appear from optimizations
18:14:15 <Bike> if you don't want a busy loop i mean
18:14:42 <pikhq> *Damn* the wifi's being high latency right now.
18:14:49 <shachaf> zzo38: What does it mean to execute an empty body 10000 times? hth
18:15:04 <pikhq> I mean, shit, I'm actually getting notable predictions out of mosh right now.
18:16:06 <zzo38> Furthermore, if you write "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile(ix);" then I want it to ensure the value of ix is stored somewhere during the loop (possibly in a register, and it doesn't necessarily have to be retained after the loop), and "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile(&ix);" ensures it is in RAM.
18:17:39 <pikhq> #define volatile(x) { volatile typeof(x) _x = x; }
18:17:40 <zzo38> shachaf: To compile the code to make such a body but do nothing; if you write a for block, if block, etc that contains only things that are optimized out, some of which are volatile, then it must compile a NOP instruction. Otherwise, it doesn't have to compile a NOP instruction. For example, "if(1) volatile;" should make a NOP instruction since the condition can be optimized out.
18:18:22 <shachaf> Like, I don't think "NOP instruction", like, means anything in the, like, semantics of C, man.
18:18:24 <zzo38> pikhq: I suppose it can work in a few cases like that.
18:20:24 <pikhq> "Last contact x seconds ago." Holy *shit* mosh is dealing with a high latency link at this point.
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18:20:44 <pikhq> I guess I get to see how well its prediction works at least?
18:20:57 <pikhq> Which, really, is quite impressive.
18:21:14 <shachaf> pikhq: wlecmoe to every day for me? hth
18:21:17 <pikhq> Could be better, but then this is currently taking more time than packets to SPACE.
18:21:30 <pikhq> shachaf: I'm moshing on LAN here.
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18:22:14 <pikhq> Somewhere, there is some ridiculous bufferbloat.
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18:24:29 <zzo38> What else I mean is that for example, if you write "if(x) volatile;" then, if x is known at compile-time to be zero, it makes nothing; if x is known to be nonzero, it makes NOP; if the value of x is not known at compile-time, it compiles a "branch if zero" instruction with an offset of zero (if allowed by the target), and does not compile a NOP (unless branches with offset of zero is not allowed by the target, in which case it branches to the point
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18:41:00 <Jafet> > exitFailure >> undefined
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19:18:08 <Sgeo> o.O there's an HTTP 2.0 in the works
19:18:46 <olsner> as well as talks to use SPDY to replace HTTP
19:19:25 <olsner> or maybe that's rather being considered for becoming HTTP 2.0
19:25:33 <Sgeo> Current HTTP 2.0 spec is a copy of SPDY I think
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19:26:54 <Sgeo> Is Konqueror a more reasonable browser to use these days? Now that a derivative of KHTML is quite popular?
19:29:10 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqel0k0NzNU I think I understand sgeo a lot better now.
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19:30:13 <Sgeo> The fun part is a number of those worlds I haven't been to before I saw that video
19:30:24 <Sgeo> Have seen the hand garden before though
19:30:35 <Sgeo> Some of those worlds are user-built
19:31:11 <Sgeo> 2d avatars like that tie-died kid aren't customizable
19:31:32 <Sgeo> Althoguh Samurai_Jack's avater is custom I think, a 3d av made into a flat panel
19:32:01 <Sgeo> That maze under the toilets is non-Euclidean (poossibly not the best way to describe it)
19:32:48 <Sgeo> That place where he says 'it's just a cube' is accessed by walking through a mirror
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19:35:37 <Sgeo> Yes, worlds can force you to say things
19:36:59 <fizzie> SA had a "Video Game Article" that also reminded me of Sgeo; it's in regards of Second Life; it's at http://www.somethingawful.com/d/video-game-article/meanwhile-second-life.php and it's kind of like a vignette.
19:40:11 <fizzie> It's probably somewhat of an inappropriate use of a semicolon.
19:41:10 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SemicolonFreq.png we passed "peak semicolon" around 1800.
19:43:10 <Bike> are smicolons a renewable resource
19:43:20 <fizzie> I think they're mined.
19:45:07 <fizzie> Still, the last paragraph -- overdone as it was -- was quite evocative. (Not that I ever did any Second Living, I've just read about it, and the spiritual predecessors. Local computing magazines used to have articles in the early days of Virtual Reality.)
19:46:45 <myname> who the hell makes statistics about the usage of semicolons
19:46:51 <Lumpio-> Is all that random variance before 1800ish caused by lack of material to analyze?
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19:48:09 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Very probably.
19:48:35 <fizzie> myname: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/charfreq_punct.html is almost, but not quite, statistics about the usage of semicolons.
19:49:03 <fizzie> (Perhaps I should in fact make individual punctuation character pages too, given that there's already all of a-z.)
19:49:05 <myname> shouldn't it rise after invention of C?
19:49:25 <fizzie> It's probably made out of, you know, books, in general.
19:49:41 <fizzie> Well, Google Books, like it says.
19:49:46 <Lumpio-> What happened in late October
19:50:48 <fizzie> Should I try to figure out the right rrdtool magic to see which day it is exactly?
19:54:02 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-10-26#212912shachaf at least quite a lot of dots happened.
19:54:53 <shachaf> What was *that* all about?
19:55:10 <fizzie> shachaf: Shouldn't *you* know?
19:55:21 <shachaf> That looks like a really annoying thing to do.
19:55:58 <shachaf> I'm not sure why I'd do that.
19:56:40 <fizzie> Perhaps it was the evil shachaf.
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20:31:32 <kmc> <Sgeo> That maze under the toilets is non-Euclidean
20:31:40 <kmc> t sgeo this sounds like a jerkcity line hth
20:32:01 <Bike> are we sure that sgeo isn't randy
20:32:49 <kmc> i read rands's book on managing programmers
20:32:54 <kmc> it was............................................ "ok"
20:33:49 <Bike> that;s not very good.
20:34:13 <shachaf> <elliott> you're............................................ "ok"
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20:52:06 <kmc> how goes it?
20:52:30 * kmc is learning the moves for rotating the centers of a Rubik's cube
20:52:36 <ion> Who’s shichaf?
20:52:55 <ion> But the center cannot hold.
20:53:44 <kmc> http://www.alchemistmatt.com/cube/rubikcenter.html
20:54:21 <Bike> dance dance dance
20:54:22 <shachaf> Neat that you can do that.
20:54:29 <ion> https://plus.google.com/100013123247538791993/posts/2W2onvw3Ly5
20:54:33 <shachaf> mnoqy is a russian spy btw hth
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20:55:10 <shachaf> mnoqy is not a russian spy
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21:01:32 <nooodl> wikipedia is telling me the subjonctif imparfait is rarely used in french but
21:01:53 <nooodl> what the heck are you supposed to write after "j'étais surpris que ..."?!
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21:08:25 <kmc> ok i did it
21:09:01 <Koen_> j'étais surpris que tu aies été là ce soir
21:09:39 <Koen_> so that would be subjonctif passé composé
21:10:18 <Koen_> though I would rarely phrase a sentence like that, and would prefer "j'étais surpris de te voir là ce soir"
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21:12:45 <Koen_> kmc: if the cops ask me who did it, I'll refer them to the logs
21:13:44 <Koen_> ok "j'étais surpris que" is a very unusual way to start a sentence so all tenses sound weird in my head
21:14:55 <nooodl> hmm. how would you translate something like "i was surprised that she still knew me"
21:15:44 <nooodl> oh wait you mentioned the "j'étais surpris de" thing up there, oops
21:15:47 <olsner> extrapolating from the previous discussion, j'étais surpris que something something
21:15:49 <Bike> http://www.requestcomics.com/comic/306.html hmmmmmmm
21:15:58 <Koen_> present form would definitely be "je suis surpris que tu sois là" so with the imparfait... hmmm you want me to say "j'étais supris que tu fûsses là", right?
21:16:29 <Koen_> (took me some time to find the correct form for "fûsses")
21:16:39 <Koen_> ok that sounds correct
21:16:50 <Koen_> "j'étais surpris que tu aies été là" is probably not correct
21:17:43 <Koen_> nooodl: I would say instead "j'étais surpris d'apprendre qu'elle se souvenait encore de moi" ("I was surprised to learn she still remembered me")
21:18:26 <Koen_> but yeah it"s definitely unusual :)
21:18:45 <Koen_> you might find it in novels
21:19:04 <nooodl> it's like passé simple i guess
21:19:14 <Koen_> no passé simple is easy
21:19:26 <Koen_> and not so unusual when writing
21:19:36 <Koen_> (you would rarely use it in oral speech though)
21:19:51 <Koen_> buuuuuuut I'm really having trouble finding the correct tense for your sentence
21:20:08 <Koen_> j'étais surpris qu'elle se rappelle de moi is the first thing that comes to mind
21:20:19 <Koen_> and is probably what I would say when speaking
21:20:21 <nooodl> just subjonctif présent?
21:20:25 <Koen_> but it's most definitely wrong
21:20:48 <Koen_> "j'étais surpris qu'elle se rappelât de moi" is probably more correct
21:21:00 <nooodl> this is for an oral presentation thingy... maybe i should just not use the subjonctif at all
21:21:10 <Koen_> well if it's oral and you use that
21:21:22 <shachaf> What is a word for something that's either a source or a target?
21:21:29 <shachaf> Or either a domain or a codomain. Or something.
21:21:51 <Koen_> oh wait I thought you wanted the french word for that haha
21:22:15 <shachaf> nooodl: I want a better word than object for talking about categories.
21:22:21 <shachaf> Since objects aren't important but people think they are.
21:22:39 <kmc> i call them "types" i guess types are important though??
21:23:05 <shachaf> The point is that types aren't the main thing you're talking about. You're talking about functions.
21:23:23 <shachaf> Types are just there to tell you how to compose them.
21:24:16 <Bike> imo, use some obscure german term so nobody will remember it and just talk about morphisms instead.
21:24:35 <nooodl> i don't get what's wrong with object :/
21:25:08 <nooodl> isn't that literally The Thing in categories that's either a source or a target
21:25:13 <kmc> if they're objects then what are the methods??? checkmate mathematicians
21:25:13 <Bike> well, if you're like me and mindstuck in set theory land, sometimes you think about objects in category theory even though that's ninety kinds of pointles
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21:25:23 <Bike> and shachaf thinks this is the fault of "object" the term i guess?
21:25:46 <nooodl> wow i think about objects in categories :(
21:25:58 <zzo38> Objects are important if you want to know which morphisms can be composed!
21:26:30 <nooodl> i'm still nowhere in my CT adventures though
21:26:50 <nooodl> (btw: thanks for recommending barr & wells, shachaf)
21:27:03 <shachaf> I recommended Barr & Wells?
21:27:20 <shachaf> Probably I quoted ddarius's recommendation.
21:27:32 <shachaf> Did you read that one story?
21:28:01 <shachaf> For example, the "elements" of a monoid are the arrows, not the objects.
21:28:09 <shachaf> Arrows don't have to be particularly function-like.
21:28:20 <nooodl> <shachaf> Anyway Barr & Wells is free online.
21:28:20 <nooodl> <shachaf> I hear it's good.
21:28:39 <shachaf> ddarius also recommended learning about category theory as a generalization of lattice theory or something like that.
21:29:02 <nooodl> yeah, that was actually my first little cat. theory-related "whoa" moment (the monoid thing)
21:29:44 <nooodl> how vague the terms "object", "arrow", and "compose" really are, in the definition of a category
21:29:44 <Sgeo> Hmm. Saturday's episode might have been leaked, tempted to go find and watch it
21:29:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: How do you talk about rank-n types categorically? hth
21:30:04 <shachaf> nooodl: I think the terms are actively misleading now.
21:30:06 <zzo38> Well, yes, it doesn't have to be a function, or of other thing like that, it depend on the category, what the morphisms and objects are meaning.
21:30:13 <shachaf> For anything except sets etc.
21:30:14 <copumpkin> your hth must mean something different from my hth
21:30:30 <Bike> this doesn't h at all
21:30:36 <shachaf> I'm just addicted to hth. :-( hth
21:30:48 <Bike> do you all read category theory blogs, are there category theory blogs
21:30:48 <nooodl> btw shachaf what is i_i :(
21:30:50 <Bike> besides the one i mean
21:31:10 <shachaf> It looks like an owl face to me.
21:31:30 <shachaf> Is nooodl Finnish? I thought nooodl was Finnish.
21:32:01 <nooodl> belgium is the new hexham (population: me, anothertest)
21:32:20 <copumpkin> shachaf: probably something involving (di)natural transformations, I'd guess
21:32:27 <shachaf> I guess I just assume people on IRC are Finnish, hth
21:32:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: I mean, you have a category-ish thing of Haskell functions.
21:32:49 <nooodl> Bike: where do you live again (i'm awful)
21:33:04 <shachaf> But they're all monomorphic, and you handle the polymorphism at another level, or something.
21:33:06 <Bike> how is that relevant
21:33:09 <shachaf> But that doesn't work with rank-2 types.
21:33:13 <zzo38> You have a Rank-N category?
21:33:19 <copumpkin> well that's what I mean by natural transformations
21:33:27 <nooodl> i vaguely seem to recall that you're french
21:33:37 <nooodl> which is belgian, fsvo belgian, fsvo french
21:33:37 <Bike> oh, no i'm not that
21:33:38 <shachaf> I guess it's a complicated category, then.
21:33:57 <copumpkin> runST :: (forall s. () -> ST s a) -> a
21:34:01 <nooodl> wow that's belgium sorry
21:34:16 <copumpkin> you can phrase that forall s. thing as an NT
21:34:26 <copumpkin> with constant functor for first half and flip of ST for second half
21:35:20 <nooodl> hmm. would it be better to think of "objects" and "arrows" as "types" and "composable, typed values" respectively?
21:35:38 <copumpkin> shachaf: still not sure how it'd work though, need to think harar
21:35:53 <shachaf> nooodl: I think that's a better intuition.
21:36:22 <shachaf> For a poset category, I guess an arrow is a proof of ≤ or something.
21:36:35 <nooodl> i still have no idea what posets are
21:36:49 <shachaf> A poset is a set with a partial ordering.
21:37:00 <copumpkin> you really just need a preorder though, which has even less structure
21:37:18 <copumpkin> nooodl: take a total order as an example: natural numbers with <=
21:37:19 <zzo38> Not really a proof I suppose, but a partial ordering will make a thin category (they follow the same laws), where there is a morphism if A is less than or equal to B.
21:37:32 <zzo38> And the objects of the category are the elements of the set.
21:38:33 <copumpkin> for another cute category, take obejcts = natural numbers, morphisms from n -> m = m x n (real) matrices
21:38:51 <copumpkin> and then figure out what you can find in that category
21:39:30 <Bike> are matrices types
21:39:45 <FreeFull> I don't honestly know what an object would be in general
21:40:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: Is composition multiplication?
21:40:06 <Bike> why do things have to be things. things can just be themselves imo. go with the flow
21:40:47 <shachaf> And square matrices of any particular size are a monoid.
21:41:15 <copumpkin> a monoid object? :P first figure out if the category is monoidal
21:41:53 <copumpkin> how about simple things like initial/terminal/product/coproduct
21:42:00 <shachaf> I just mean an object and all its endoarrows.
21:42:14 <shachaf> That's boring enough to not be worth mentioning.
21:42:46 <shachaf> zzo38: I choose to say that the arrow : A -> B in the poset category is a proof that A ≤ B
21:42:54 <shachaf> And then I identify all proofs.
21:47:03 <zzo38> Matrix multiplication does make a category; the morphisms are the matrix and the objects identify the size of the matrix (natural numbers), and zero is the initial and the final object; ... I think so, at least ...
21:49:12 <zzo38> So, really, category theory does a lot of things.
21:49:33 <shachaf> copumpkin: That's a good category.
21:49:44 <copumpkin> shachaf: wait until you figure out (co)products!
21:51:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: Hmm, let's see.
22:00:40 <kmc> http://gitorious.org/nethack-tas-tools/mainline/blobs/master/turnbyturn.txt nethack TAS
22:01:29 <nooodl> ais523: you're famous!
22:01:42 <ais523> nooodl: in what way this time?
22:02:01 <kmc> oh that's YOUR nethack TAS
22:02:17 <Bike> i liked the video of that
22:03:53 <Bike> man nethack's mechanics are kind of ridiculous aren't they
22:04:04 <nooodl> shachaf: gee hurry up and answer copumpkin's question for me please
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22:45:02 <kmc> ion: wow, that GNOME thing
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23:13:21 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: it's an exercise
23:15:29 <shachaf> Do all (co)products exist?
23:17:58 <shachaf> If N and M are natural numbers, their product is a natural number P and two matrices s : PxN and t : PxM, such that for any natural number Y and matrices a : YxN and b : YxM, there exists a unique u : YxP such that us = a and ut = b
23:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i think you probably have those multiplications the wrong way round
23:19:26 <shachaf> If u : AxB and v : BxC, which way do you multiply?
23:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> the left has to have the same number of columns as the right has rows
23:19:57 <Bike> here i was thinking you couldn't make tensor multiplication sillier
23:20:55 <shachaf> u : YxP, s : PxN, up = a : YxN
23:23:25 <zzo38> Is it a dagger category?
23:26:23 <shachaf> Does the way you have the products actually matter?
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23:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 23:26:23: <shachaf> Does the way you have the products actually matter?
23:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's one of those things where multiplication is basically commutative except for some niggly little details
23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck it, i'm doing this the differential equations way
23:37:06 <shachaf> The empty product should be the terminal object, which I think is 0.
23:37:12 <shachaf> What's the differential equations way?
23:38:33 <zzo38> I think the zero is both initial and final objects in this category.
23:38:34 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
23:39:34 <zzo38> I would think you can, since I do not know why you don't.
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23:39:59 <shachaf> Why does it make no sense?
23:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> consider: what do you get when you multiply an mx0 and an 0xn matrix
23:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> the result must be an mxn matrix, yet where are you getting all those entries
23:40:41 <zzo38> There are none; it will be zero isn't it?
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23:40:43 <shachaf> What do you get when you compose an a -> Void function and a Void -> b function?
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23:40:57 <Bike> "uh this is category theory, who cares about that kind of sense"
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23:41:32 <shachaf> It's weird in that there aren't any.
23:41:58 <shachaf> So it sounds like there wouldn't be an mx0 matrix either?
23:42:21 <shachaf> Or maybe not. Who, like, knows, man?
23:43:47 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I watched an episode of Farscape last night
23:44:21 <Sgeo> Also, would you rather me watch Farscape or finish DS9?
23:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> let pi_1 = the m-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal filled in with 1s
23:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> let pi_2 = the n-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal filled in with 1s
23:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> now, if we have y and f1,f2 as m-by-y and n-by-y matrices...
23:47:28 <Bike> you could just say "the whatever by whatever identity matrix"
23:47:30 <shachaf> What's a diagonal of an nxm matrix?
23:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the identity matrix with padding at the bottom or right
23:53:19 <zzo38> It is what I thought it was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(mathematics)#Empty_matrices
23:55:01 <Bike> well, that explains where you get the elements from
23:56:30 <shachaf> So there's one 3x0 matrix and one 0x3 matrix, and their product is [[0 0 0] [0 0 0] [0 0 0]]?
23:57:02 <zzo38> Yes, I think so. That is what I thought it was, and I think that is what Wikipedia means too.
23:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> pi1 is an m-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal starting in the top-left cell filled with 1s
23:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> pi2 is an n-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal starting in the top cell of the nth column filled with 1s
23:59:19 <Bike> it doesn't say there must be only one of each, shachaf
00:00:04 <Bike> why not? if you have zero divisors you might as well have fun with it.
00:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> also: the number of m-by-n matrices with elements from a set with cardinality X is X^(m*n)
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00:04:37 <shachaf> But I'll figure this out properly later.
00:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> so are initial and terminal objects meant to do interesting things around products
00:05:02 <shachaf> 1 as in the terminal object, not the natural number 1.
00:05:14 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the empty product is the terminal object.
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00:09:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I think A*1=A?
00:09:59 <shachaf> Since in https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/CategoricalProduct-03.png , you get half the diagram trivially.
00:10:49 <shachaf> copumpkin: I was doing something else and then Phantom_Hoover got me back into it!
00:10:59 <shachaf> I bet he's your agent. Pumpkin_Hoover
00:14:12 <shachaf> copumpkin: you should come to bayhac to talk about these things hth
00:14:50 <shachaf> conor is "2 cool 4 bayhac"
00:15:00 <copumpkin> what other structure does that category have?!?!?
00:15:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i know there are a billion structures in category theory
00:19:07 <zzo38> All categories have a identity monad and a identity monad, and all categories with final objects have Finalize monad for each final objects, and Initialize comonad for each initial objects.
00:19:34 <shachaf> what are adjunctions in this category hth
00:19:42 <zzo38> I listed two of them already.
00:19:54 <kmc> http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/doxygen/trunk/h264__qpel__mmx_8c-source.html C: best macro assembler ever?
00:20:13 <shachaf> zzo38: A identity monad *and* a identity monad?
00:20:30 <zzo38> shachaf: I meant, a identity monad and a identity comonad.
00:20:36 <Bike> kmc: that's gross
00:20:37 <zzo38> The second monad I mentioned is the Finalize monad.
00:20:39 <shachaf> zzo38: I think usually you say "an identity monad".
00:21:30 <shachaf> So an endofunctor maps sizes to sizes and matrices to matrices and preserves composition and identity.
00:22:19 <shachaf> I think functors are meant to be unexciting.
00:23:16 <shachaf> What's a good endofunctor?
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00:24:42 <kmc> "Seriously. If you want to be a part of the Bitcoin revolution it's time to put on your grown up pants and switch to Linux."
00:26:04 <Bike> time to use your MANLY PANTS and switch to os/2
00:26:37 <copumpkin> guess I'm not catching the bitcoin train :(
00:26:46 <kmc> Windows is for shirt-cockers
00:27:11 <Bike> what;s a shitcocker
00:27:17 <kmc> what it sounds like
00:27:21 <kmc> also, gross
00:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1e75ju/12_yearolds_thoughts_on_buying_bitcoins/
00:28:44 <Bike> huh, nymphs have infinite carry capacity
00:28:58 <Bike> i'm learning so many pointless things
00:29:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: perfect macro
00:29:54 <Bike> "this is magic... 4% fee though... well, whatever" hardened investor here.
00:30:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: can you generalize a matrix to have real rather than natural dimensions................
00:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, as i said earlier, the set of x-by-y matrices over a field F is F^(x*y)
00:31:35 <shachaf> imo someone else should have that fun hth
00:31:40 <Bike> maybe you should start with negatives.
00:32:05 <Bike> I guess the main problem would be like, what kind of linear map is that?
00:32:17 <Bike> Do you need to operate on pi-dimensional space
00:37:42 <kmc> i googled "bitinstant" and found second hit "Do not use BITINSTANT : Bitcoin - Reddit"
00:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bzo49/do_not_use_bitinstant/c9bodk8
00:42:24 <Bike> "a stack of -184549376 gold pieces"
00:43:13 <Bike> reddit is a good place for customer service
00:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dgq10/i_lost_all_my_bitcoins_with_satoshi_dice_mfw/ bitcoin promotes responsible financial habits in 12-year-olds
00:46:04 <kmc> Martingale Strategy... great way for Bankrupt ....
00:46:07 <kmc> could not have put it better myself
00:46:25 <shachaf> in the simulator i found it's possible of 13 lose in one short .. (For 50%)
00:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> "losing 13 times in a row, i mean what are the chances"
00:48:50 <shachaf> maybe i should fix it not to use these 16-bit floats........
00:49:15 <Bike> i like the guy who says to play a card game instead
00:49:51 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: that feels oddly categorical!
00:50:02 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: looks like an end or a coend or something
00:57:13 <kmc> Bike: well the suggestion is to play poker, right?
00:57:17 <kmc> which is a legit game of skill
00:57:31 <kmc> still pretty likely that a beginner will lose everything
00:57:55 <zzo38> Even when playing poker, don't play cash games; that is a sure way to get ruined. Play tournament style poker games it is better.
00:58:20 <kmc> basically don't play games where it's you vs. the house
00:58:29 <kmc> play games where it's you vs. idiots and the house just takes a cut
00:58:50 <shachaf> what do you do when you're one of the idiots
00:58:59 <kmc> get smarter or stop playing
00:59:22 <zzo38> In a tournament game you cannot use more money than the entry fee, and everyone gets the same number of chips.
00:59:53 <kmc> isn't the average player skill higher in tournaments?
01:04:19 <zzo38> But different tournament cost different amount of money.
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01:17:42 <Sgeo> Fun fact: David Bowie has/had a presence in Worlds
01:18:03 <Sgeo> Actually, the 'hand garden' is in Bowieworld
01:23:46 <Bike> kmc: the post basically said "if you're going to lose your money at least have fun" yeah
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01:24:13 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, and don't spend more money than you should spend ordinarily for entertainment anyways.
01:24:23 <zzo38> If you manage to win, that is a bonus.
01:26:02 <kmc> zzo38: what are your favorite poker games, and have you invented any new ones?
01:26:32 <zzo38> I don't play poker much, but I know Texas Hold'em, and I have thought about new kinds too.
01:26:40 <shachaf> mnoqy mnoqy mnoqy, hi mnoqy
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02:39:16 <Bike_> Does the nethack turn by turn thing end at 823? :(
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02:39:37 <kmc> zzo38: which new kinds?
02:39:51 <kmc> hold 'em is very popular, I think it has a good balance between randomness, objective skill, and psychology
02:40:25 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know of such thing like that, I think it is, too.
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02:41:03 <zzo38> kmc: I was thinking of poker game with tarot cards, Pokemon cards, and ones that use standard cards but with trading as well, and with chess, etc
02:41:12 <Bike> Eleusis seems like this channel's kind of card game.
02:41:15 <shachaf> holdM_ is the version where you discard unused cards, right?
02:41:17 <Bike> Either that or the one you can't talk about.
02:41:28 <kmc> shachaf: ꙮ_ꙮ
02:41:28 <Bike> hold 'em is where you have a shared pool of cards.
02:41:40 <zzo38> You share 5 cards and 2 card are only your own cards.
02:41:52 <Bike> i realize that that was probably a pun, but fuck off
02:42:06 <kmc> and there are successive betting rounds with 0, 3, 4, 5 public cards
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02:42:53 <zzo38> Yes and then you make your best 5 cards of the 7 available to you. If you have a royal flush, nobody else can; unlike in draw poker, in this game only one player can have a royal flush.
02:43:08 <kmc> that's true
02:44:18 <kmc> also your best hand could be just the five public cards, in which case your private hands don't matter (even to break ties)
02:44:56 <kmc> one problem with hold 'em is that good play involves folding most hands immediately, which is borng
02:45:02 <kmc> i don't know if other poker variants solve this problem
02:45:05 <zzo38> Yes, although if your best hand is the five public cards, then you will at most tie.
02:46:28 <shachaf> 1F64B HAPPY PERSON RAISING ONE HAND [<U+1F64B>]
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02:50:08 <Sgeo> http://e.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9yFP31Q8OYauTsXL.png
02:50:19 <Sgeo> Found in /r/lounge CSS
02:51:15 <shachaf> dude like what are you doing like lounging man
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03:45:03 <kmc> entertain me
03:45:37 <Bike> Write out hofstadter's q sequence on paper, then make a hat out of it
03:45:49 <zzo38> kmc: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/The_Entertainer_-_Scott_Joplin.ogg
03:45:50 <shachaf> Let mee entertain you / Let me make you smile / Let me do a few tricks / Some old and then some new tricks / I'm very versatile
03:46:01 <kmc> zzo38: good response
03:46:06 <shachaf> That's been happening a lot to me lately.
03:46:20 <shachaf> Something's wrong with my keyboard and/or finger and/or brain
03:46:40 <shachaf> and/or irc client and/or mosh and/or screen (why am i still using screen i should have switched to mosh when my server restarted i forgot help)
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03:46:56 <kmc> switched to tmux you mean or?
03:47:09 <kmc> tmux is still actively developed so you know it's good
03:47:16 <kmc> because nothing makes software good like people actively fucking with it
03:47:20 <Taneb> kmc, why am I awake
03:47:48 <kmc> i used to play piano
03:48:11 <shachaf> kmc: Should I learn to play piano?
03:48:17 <shachaf> How about another musical instrument?
03:49:02 <shachaf> CHROMATIC BUTTON ACCORDION?
03:49:16 <kmc> you should learn to play the ondes Martenot
03:49:31 <shachaf> kmc: What's the probability of you moving to SF this year?
03:49:43 <Bike> Accordions own. Learn to play that.
03:49:50 <Bike> They're kind of expensive though ("unlike pianos")
03:49:59 <shachaf> Bike: Only chromatic button accordions hth
03:50:01 <kmc> you can get a free bad piano
03:50:03 <shachaf> Piano accordions are the devil.
03:50:08 <kmc> just by paying the cost to haul it away
03:50:24 <kmc> shachaf: i'm going to say 90%
03:50:36 <kmc> my girlfriend and I are both pretty sure it's what we want to do
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03:50:49 <kmc> it's contingent on me getting a job in the SF area, but I expect I can do that
03:51:08 <kmc> it is pretty likely that I will be living in SF by September (because that's when my lease here ends)
03:51:55 <coppro> where are you presently/
03:52:04 <kmc> Cambridge, MA
03:52:19 <Taneb> Who knows, by 2017 I may be in the SF area
03:52:25 <kmc> no I'm old
03:52:42 <kmc> well, 25, but I graduated when I was 20
03:52:42 <Bike> old in elliott years
03:52:45 <kmc> so i feel old :(
03:52:48 <kmc> but it's not all bad!
03:52:57 <shachaf> I haven't graduated and I feel old. :-(
03:53:06 <Bike> you graduated at 20? well now i feel incompetent
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:12:31 <copumpkin> oh kmc is younger than I thought he was
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:12:38 <kmc> heh how old do i seem
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:12:52 <copumpkin> I assumed you were around my age
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:13:12 <kmc> ah, i don't perceive much of a gap between 21 and 25. maybe i will when i'm 25
03:53:32 <copumpkin> my gf is in med school (4th year) and one of her classmates is 20
03:53:39 <kmc> Bike: maybe this is a humblebrag or something, but skipping grades in middle school wasn't a big deal
03:53:44 <Bike> Well, med students are freaks anyway.
03:53:50 <kmc> the classes still move at the same pace, and each year is 80% recap of the previous year anyway
03:53:59 <kmc> copumpkin: wow
03:54:07 <coppro> I could have entered university earlier; am glad I did not
03:54:21 <Bike> Yeah, I skipped two years of math classes, mostly meant i had an annoying schedule
03:54:28 <Taneb> I was never good enough at English to skip a year
03:54:54 <kmc> we had a magnet school, but it was only half day
03:55:01 <kmc> so i spent a *lot* of time on school buses
03:55:06 <Taneb> Could have probably skipped a year in maths or science if the school system would allow it
03:55:12 <kmc> going back and forth between there and my regular public school
03:55:33 <Bike> Hm, I think the nearest magnet school is the one named after HeLa. That's kinda cool.
03:55:41 <Bike> coppro: School for nerds
03:55:48 <Bike> uh, in the US, specifically
03:55:51 <kmc> shachaf: seriously, learn to play the ondes Martenot
03:55:54 * coppro wonders why that terminology
03:55:55 <kmc> and join a Radiohead cover band
03:56:08 <shachaf> Doesn't Radiohead have drums?
03:56:13 <Bike> coppro: because they get sudents from a wider area than usual schools.
03:56:15 <kmc> coppro: because they pull in gifted students from around the area
03:56:20 <kmc> shachaf: oh, I forgot you hate drums :(
03:56:45 <shachaf> kmc: The other day I got really annoyed at the person sitting next to me on the airplane for having music with drums playing in their earphones.
03:56:45 <Bike> You could join an arhythmic radiohead cover band.
03:56:57 <kmc> they do have some ambient-ish tracks
03:57:02 * coppro went to the Canadian equivalent
03:57:04 <kmc> not really enough for a whole bandi
03:57:06 <shachaf> It escaped the earphones but just barely -- it wasn't particularly loud compared to the noise of the engine.
03:57:17 <Bike> Shachaf should just join a Paul Lansky cover band.
03:57:19 <shachaf> But it bothered me much more than any other noise.
03:57:24 <Bike> Pretty much the same as radiohead
03:58:12 <Jafet> Spinal Tap Drummer Dies From Arrhythmia
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03:58:42 <shachaf> Bike: Music has rhythm even without bands!
03:58:52 <shachaf> kmc: I mind drums in a song a bit less when I'm already familiar with it.
03:59:09 <copumpkin> do you count any kind of percussion as bad?
03:59:11 <shachaf> So the backdoor to get me to listen to a song with drums in it is to make sure I'm familiar with it somehow.
03:59:12 <Bike> It's slightly possible I'm being silly.
03:59:16 <shachaf> What's "any kind of percussion"?
03:59:25 <Bike> cymbal solo!!!
03:59:28 <shachaf> Things that go boom-boom-boom-boom aren't.
03:59:29 <copumpkin> I mean things like cymbals or snares
03:59:42 <coppro> become a concert percussionist
03:59:51 <shachaf> What I don't like is the thing that Bike referred to as a "beat".
03:59:54 <coppro> your goal in life should be to play the bass drum in Verdi's Requiem
04:00:15 <copumpkin> sounds like you'd like sigur ros then :P
04:00:28 <copumpkin> although they do have some percussion
04:00:49 <shachaf> Other things I don't like: velvet, carbonated beverages
04:00:53 <Bike> I'm just going to keep naming weirdos.
04:01:46 <copumpkin> although one of my favorite songs of theirs goes kind of crazy with the beat near the end
04:02:01 <Bike> Haha, Pitchfork gave the loops 9.4/10
04:02:21 <copumpkin> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwDHBqFedFg)
04:03:08 <copumpkin> it seems like avoiding percussion cuts out most recent music
04:03:44 <shachaf> Not all uses of drums are bad.
04:03:46 <copumpkin> the massive drum of the dies irae in verdi's requiem
04:03:51 <copumpkin> here, let me get you a massive drum
04:03:58 <coppro> THAT IS THE THING I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER
04:04:14 <coppro> Bike: listen to the dies irae!
04:04:15 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW1Uc-grcMs
04:04:45 <shachaf> <shachaf> far away from the boom boom boom of the drummer / it was midsummer / what a bummer / clementine
04:04:47 <copumpkin> it's even better when he brings that theme back near the end
04:04:52 <Bike> this is what, 19th century?
04:05:04 <coppro> copumpkin: I got to see it live a week ago
04:05:06 <Bike> Oh, those are certainly drums. I don't think that's the "beat" shachaf doesn't like, though?
04:05:13 <copumpkin> it's a mind-blowing piece of music
04:05:18 <Bike> I mean, they're pretty sparse.
04:05:21 <shachaf> Bike: "beat" was your word! Don't you dare quote me on it!
04:05:29 <Bike> I was quoting myself.
04:05:47 <shachaf> Only rude people and shachaf quote themselves.
04:05:54 <copumpkin> the rex tremendae is awesome, as is the entire libera me at the end
04:05:55 <Bike> So there's no issue.
04:06:06 <copumpkin> fuck it, the whole thing is awesome
04:06:10 <Bike> Anyway the 19th century was bigger on drums than earlier periods, I thought.
04:06:27 <Bike> I mean if you have a mandolin concerto or whatever. Not a lot of drumming going on there.
04:06:31 <coppro> copumpkin: I was in the very back of the theatre and could still feel the bass drum when he did the giant two-mallet beat
04:06:53 <shachaf> copumpkin: Are you going to followeegan to SF?
04:07:05 <copumpkin> here, have leontyne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQbDQe12JA
04:08:02 <Bike> does shachaf like bach?
04:08:31 <shachaf> imo his music's p. good tho hth
04:09:09 <Bike> idly wondering if you'd like the crazy piano guy's version of the musical offering less, since he's really pointy with the keys
04:09:13 <shachaf> Should I go see _Arcadia_?
04:09:21 <shachaf> Bike: I don't mind key pointiness.
04:11:02 <copumpkin> here, no drums anywhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KpYUaRg0aDw#t=830s
04:13:55 <copumpkin> (that's one of my favorite pieces ever, btw)
04:17:35 <copumpkin> I hope you're all just too flabbergasted by that amazing piece to IRC anymore
04:20:06 <copumpkin> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/22/nanny-rich-british-russian-200k_n_933141.html?utm_hp_ref=50&ir=50
04:22:37 <shachaf> copumpkin: how many nannies do you employ
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04:47:29 <shachaf> copumpkin: That totally has drums or drumalikes. :-(
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04:49:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: hey should i read any russian novels hth
04:50:19 <Bike> Yeah, just read short stories.
04:50:23 <Bike> Get some roadside picnics going.
04:50:46 <olsner> you could read asimov? I think he's russian
04:50:53 <Bike> well, briefly.
04:51:05 <Bike> Different literary tradition.
04:51:54 <olsner> the one into english perhaps?
04:51:56 <Bike> clearly you should read demons. get yo hate on
04:52:13 <Bike> I feel sorry for translators. They get no respect.
04:52:30 <shachaf> Bike: You mean from people like olsner?
04:52:48 <Bike> though maybe he's kidding or whatever, who knows.
04:54:07 <olsner> hmm, actually I don't respect translators (not entirely decided as to whether I should or not but leaning towards "shouldn't")
04:54:26 <olsner> they're a poor workaround for me not knowing all languages
04:55:39 <pikhq> What of the universal translator? :P
04:58:43 <Bike> I'm still just stuck thinking of how bad Verne's translations were, I guess.
04:59:19 <shachaf> I read a lot of Verne in Hebrew.
04:59:41 <kmc> hofstadter wrote that book about translation
04:59:42 <Bike> The early ones into English. They were almost all basically terrible, and they kept on being terrible and republished for so long that he has a way different reputation in the anglophone world than he does everywhere else.
05:00:21 <Bike> I liked that book, but I'm a monoglot so I probably know nothing about anything.
05:00:25 <shachaf> I read most Verne that I've read in Hebrew.
05:00:42 <shachaf> Later I reread some in English.
05:00:42 <olsner> that's a bit surprising, I'd assume the number of english speakers would generally make translations into english better than other translations
05:00:47 <shachaf> _The Mysterious Island_ is good.
05:01:06 <Bike> olsner: They still sold well, because they were translated as pulp.
05:01:52 <Bike> But I mean, it's weird to reconcile the crud that made it into that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie with a guy who inspired Perec.
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05:25:47 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musicians_by_band
05:25:56 <shachaf> This category contains only the following page. This list may not reflect recent changes (learn more).
05:26:02 <shachaf> User talk:FLASHBUDDHAI THE BASS-KONG
05:27:47 <Bike> I am all kinds of ready to talk about FLASHBUDDHAI THE BASS-KONG.
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06:16:55 <fizzie> http://developer.android.com/reference/android/hardware/SensorManager.html#GRAVITY_DEATH_STAR_I oh Android, you and your APIs.
06:19:10 <Bike> wow, pretty low, huh.
06:19:22 <kmc> wow a star wars reference, take that corporate suits
06:19:32 <fizzie> There is also GRAVITY_THE_ISLAND, "Gravity on the island".
06:19:39 <Bike> is that a Lost reference or what
06:19:57 <fizzie> It has the Lost numbers in it, so probably.
06:20:24 <fizzie> (It's 4.815162 somethings; unlike all other GRAVITY_FOO constants, the units are not documented.)
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06:36:03 <shachaf> kmc: my friend wrote this article, how do i argue with them http://blog.sosonkin.com/2013/05/then-i-finally-understood-monads.html
06:36:09 <shachaf> (note: not actually my friend)
06:36:15 <kmc> more like a frenemy?
06:36:23 <Bike> "more like a stranger"
06:36:44 <shachaf> not my friend. more like my bicycle
06:36:54 <shachaf> i.e. way north in washington and rusting
06:37:06 <kmc> we were just outside of barstow when I finally understood monads
06:37:35 <shachaf> the joke is that my bicycle is in washington and rusting
06:37:35 <zzo38> Well, there are several problems with it.
06:37:40 <shachaf> and Bike is also in washington
06:37:45 <shachaf> and Bike is a common abbreviation for bicycle
06:38:13 <Bike> huh i'm getting some alternate openings when i google that kmcism
06:38:18 <zzo38> One (minor) problem is adding extra parentheses, but this isn't really a problem, since it would still work like that.
06:38:28 <Bike> fear and loahting in textual criticism
06:39:06 <zzo38> They say they are to indicate the three monads, but the third thing surrounded is a function!
06:40:15 <zzo38> So, in other words, putStr whatever is making the IO action (IO monad type), not the monad itself.
06:40:22 <zzo38> Furthermore, maybe putStrLn might be better here.
06:40:54 <Bike> the true monad is not the monad that can be spoken of
06:41:03 <Bike> that's probably not true for monadology actually, huh.
06:41:08 <zzo38> At least the article explains how it is used; this much makes some sense.
06:41:15 <shachaf> the monad that can be monaded is not the true monad
06:41:35 <shachaf> ☝REFERENCE TO BAD TRANSLATIONS OF THE TAO TE CHING☝
06:41:37 <zzo38> The stuff about philosophy isn't really applicable much.
06:41:44 <shachaf> "the word for speaking of is the same as the word for tao or something"
06:41:58 <Bike> are there good translations of the tao te ching
06:42:11 <shachaf> i like the excerps in raymond smullyan books
06:42:28 <shachaf> he's a real excpert in the tao te ching
06:42:34 <zzo38> At least it explains how to use the IO monad; it doesn't really explain it except how the IO monad works, but it does at least explain things which do "are the connectors or the glue that keeps these monad particles together to form a composite substance" is a way to explain the IO monad.
06:42:53 <zzo38> That is how to argue of it, isn't it?
06:43:04 <kmc> ☝ IM WITH SACHAF ☝
06:43:51 <shachaf> kmc: ☛ On the choice of Unicode characters? ☚
06:44:21 <shachaf> _How to Argue of It_, by George Pólya
06:44:50 <Bike> That made me spit. Now my furniture is all wet.
06:51:19 <shachaf> Bike: You should know better than to drink while IRCing with the Almighty Funpuns!
06:51:29 <Bike> Indeed I should, but I don't.
06:54:00 <Bike> I don't know why it made me laugh that hard. Maybe polya is just inherently amusing
06:55:09 <shachaf> kmc: There's a book by George Pólya called _How to Solve It_. It's famous, I think?
06:55:35 <shachaf> The joke was taking zzo38's sentence fragment and casting it in that light. Putting it in the mental context reserved for the title of that book.
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06:57:11 <Bike> ^rot13 Almighty
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07:01:56 <Jafet> Excerpt: expert expects express, except exerts excess excrete.
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07:41:27 <zzo38> How do you write "I will eat you" in Latin?
07:42:14 <shachaf> https://translate.google.com/#en/la/I%20will%20eat%20you. hth
07:48:29 <kmc> oh who/what is fruitFly
07:51:10 <kmc> am i in for a, 'fun surprise'
07:52:40 <kmc> are Matasano problems the new Project Euler
07:52:47 <shachaf> A person who's been banned from #haskell multiple times.
07:52:54 <shachaf> Admittedly mostly by elliott.
07:53:05 <shachaf> But anyway you can make up your own mind about them.
07:54:02 <kmc> resisting urge to logread
07:55:17 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fru.txt hth
07:56:28 <Jafet> https://translate.google.com/#la/en/We%20eat%20the%20Gauls is apparently valid latin
07:56:55 <kmc> shachaf: your server doesn't tell me what the charset is :'(
07:57:23 <shachaf> ok i feel dirty i take that back
07:58:22 <kmc> ḧigh ascii
07:58:55 <Jafet> kmc: I tried to rub those dots off my screen
07:59:58 <kmc> they are there by accident
08:00:29 <shachaf> Oh, that's not a combining character.
08:00:38 <shachaf> ḧ is actually a codepoint.
08:00:51 <Jafet> I tried to rub it off again
08:00:59 <Jafet> I probably should clean this screen
08:01:00 <shachaf> ḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧ
08:03:34 <shachaf> Even so, I'd say that it's worth raising awareness of it. Haskell's identification of inductive data with coinductive data, however well motivated, has allowed people to be lazy. People aren't so likely to be thinking "do I mean inductive or coinductive here?", "is this function productive?" etc. The usual style is to write as if everything is inductive, and if it still works on infinite data, to pat ourselves on the back for using Haskell ...
08:03:40 <shachaf> ... rather than ML. I'm certainly guilty of that.
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08:11:28 <HackEgo> bin/zalgo \ bin/zalgoerjan
08:11:30 <shachaf> `run echo Stanislaw | bin/zalgo
08:11:43 <shachaf> `run echo Stanislaw | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
08:11:45 <HackEgo> S̶̡̟͇̠͉̯̻̝͔͇̥̪͓̩̣̹͙͈̄͂ͣ̈́̀́ͥ̆͑̋ͩ̽t͍͏̷̨̰̤̣̮̫̻͕̹͈͈̙͙̘̼͎͖ͮ̿̓̈́̃̀̋̑ͣͦ͡a̸̴̖̳̯̘̣͖͔̰̮̥̺̝̻͇̅̏̔́͑ͭͣͣ́̐͛̉́̚͠n̷̵̷̰̬̻͔̼̝̩̬̏̓́͂ͯͮ͑ͩ̆͋͐̈ͮ̓ͤ̚͢͝͡͝į̶̸̷̵̧̡̞̘̝͚̦̖͙̰̳̜̓̃ͬ̉ͭ͋̓̌̾̋̃ͩ̆͡s̨̡̯̩̲̤͓̤͍͚̞̅̏̾̚͟͟
08:12:48 <kmc> we heard you like combining characters
08:12:58 <fizzie> That broke my terminal.
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08:14:24 <shachaf> It broke Bike's IRC client.
08:14:54 <pikhq_> `run echo Zalgo | (cat>tmp;for i in `seq 1 10`;do zalgo <tmp >tmp1;mv tmp1 tmp;done;cat tmp)
08:15:04 <HackEgo> Z̵̢̢̧̧̢̨̨̨̛̠̖͍̥̞̫̞̱̮͇̫̟̺̝̼̦̹̭͖̟̘̯̯̰̥̻͕̩͉̜̬̼̬̣̰̮̩̹̋̃̔ͬ̾̿̃ͣ̎͌ͬ̿ͪ̆̆̅̉ͪ͋̆͒̌̀ͦ̀̒̀͂͂̐ͫ͋̓̇͋̅́ͦ̍́̽̾̌̇͐͊̓̆ͨ̒ͦ́ͧͦ͑̐͘̕̕͜͠͡͞͠ͅͅ͏̵̸̛̖͈̣̰͉̲̼͇̤̜̼̻̹̩̞̯̜̠͈̟͉̱ͥ̌́̌ͣ͑̂̑ͯ̂͆̂ͯ͒ͧͭͦ̿̎̈ͨ̐ͣͮͩ́̿ͬ̚͜͟͝͞͞
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09:14:06 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_non-invasion_of_Poland
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09:50:33 <Snowyowl> def fib(n): return round( pow(1.618033988749895,n) / 2.23606797749979)
09:51:12 <Snowyowl> floating-point numbers make for the best Fibonacci algorithms
09:53:26 <Snowyowl> yeah, but the guy who used signed integers only made it to 2147483648 anyway.
09:54:02 <kmc> so what's the shortest closed form for fib using only integer math
09:57:23 <Snowyowl> ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.- perhaps
09:57:52 <Snowyowl> i didn't write that though, do we have a bf interpreter here to test it with?
09:58:07 <Snowyowl> !bf ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-
09:58:55 <Snowyowl> ... is he prompting for input or something?
09:59:55 <Snowyowl> !bf ++++++++++++++++++[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-
10:05:43 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
10:05:45 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
10:05:58 <fizzie> (That's not "shortest", it's just there.)
10:10:04 <fizzie> It's mostly about the decimal output.
10:10:18 <fizzie> The snippetshown above opts not to do that.
10:10:39 <fizzie> ^bf ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-!
10:10:49 <fizzie> It's the right numbers all right.
10:11:35 <Jafet> ^bf ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-!0
10:12:06 <lifthrasiir> what is a good strategy to compress BF code?
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10:36:48 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, well.
10:36:59 <Lymia> You can get a constant 1/2 size reduction with any program...
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10:56:37 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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11:02:45 <fizzie> Hey, someone has renamed the latest generation of workstations at the CS building classroom after esolangs: http://www.niksula.hut.fi/maps
11:03:55 <fizzie> Maybe not "renamed", I suppose those are likely to be their first names, but anyway.
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11:17:03 <HackEgo> Snowyowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:17:16 <Snowyowl> Can someone read this message? My client is being weird today, and I'm not sure if I'm actually connected to anything.
11:18:19 <Jafet> fungot, can you read it?
11:18:19 <fungot> Jafet: really? what's your definition of " partition" couldn't be further normalized, even though people in general.
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12:00:03 <Snowyowl> we need a bot that makes sarcastic comments after a netsplit
12:00:17 <Snowyowl> well, not "need" exactly, but it would be nice to have
12:04:12 <fizzie> fungot: Couldn't you do that? You're good at sarcasm.
12:04:13 <fungot> fizzie: true ( lambda () proc) will evalute to ( lambda ( args...), treat it as a parameter to the procedure
12:04:29 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, you're *sometimes* good at it.
12:04:29 <fungot> fizzie: give it a fnord game?) value.
12:04:36 <fungot> fizzie: did his palm pilot
12:04:48 <fizzie> "That's what his palm pilot said."
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12:17:02 <Snowyowl> Is anyone here doing this Underhanded C Contest thing in the topic?
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12:26:54 <fizzie> The underfunded C contest.
12:27:55 <Phantom__Hoover> not like the ioccc, whoring itself out to corporate interests
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12:49:33 -!- Jafet has set topic: The channel which splits off off on-off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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12:57:40 <coppro> Snowyowl: I probably will, since I just got a brilliantly evil idea in the shower
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13:29:25 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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15:09:23 <Taneb> boily: how did you get on with IRC bots in Haskell library stuff
15:11:56 <boily> Taneb: I used simpleirc and compiled everything with GHC 7.4. if you're talking about the very gazeous new iteration, then nothing yet.
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15:46:58 <oerjan> ok houston we have a problem
15:47:18 <boily> ~eval -1 :: Integer
15:48:05 <oerjan> someone added another insane instance, which messes up all intuitive defaulting as well
15:48:24 <Snowyowl> I go to another tab for five minutes and you guys get lisp all over my chat history.
15:48:41 <oerjan> Snowyowl: that's haskell hth
15:49:12 <HackEgo> hth here there be hambiguity
15:49:26 <Snowyowl> so not "how the hell", then, good to know.
15:49:40 <oerjan> i may not have personally added that definition hth
15:49:59 <boily> I think it was my fault.
15:50:26 <elliott> that _would_ be a very insane instance, admittedly.
15:50:31 <oerjan> elliott: hth did you do that hth
15:50:48 <oerjan> Snowyowl: i am adding your interpretation to my repertoire hth
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15:52:37 <oerjan> *boily: hth did you do that hth
15:53:41 <boily> oerjan: about adding the `? for hth hth
15:53:46 <oerjan> > Just 1 :: Maybe Integer
15:54:59 <oerjan> very well (or bad) then
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15:59:29 <oerjan> * kmc is learning the moves for rotating the centers of a Rubik's cube <-- is that something zen-like...
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16:00:56 <boily> oerjan: someday, I'll get a rubik's bonsai.
16:01:35 <oerjan> ok that picture rationale makes it make sense
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16:15:51 <Phantom__Hoover> apparently wallander is about a swedish detective who fails in everything he does
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16:17:58 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if it's actually just m times n <-- the category of matrices is isomorphic to a subset of the category of linear transformations, a special case of module category, from which you get that both categorical product and sum ar m plus n iirc.
16:18:22 <fizzie> Did you forget to "hth" that?
16:18:36 <fizzie> It looks like such a hth comment.
16:18:49 <oerjan> because they're the direct sums of modules in the larger category.
16:19:12 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: oh NOOOOOOOOO
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16:20:34 <oerjan> i'm mad as hell and i cannot take it any more, hth
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16:25:32 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> did you know: you can exponentiate by matrices <-- that's essentially how you get time evolution in quantum mechanics hth
16:28:03 <oerjan> the time evolution unitary operator is essentially the exponential of t*the energy operator. or thereabouts.
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16:44:22 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: crackstation.net can't find a match.
16:44:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> dude like what are you doing like lounging man <-- Sgeo literally _is_ the reddit Gold, hth.
16:45:17 <shachaf> oerjan: I guess the point of this `o was the "happy ending" oracleprophecy?
16:45:50 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: whatever you have hashed, there ain't no password related to it. (probably) (hth) (and another hth, just to be sure)
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16:46:29 <ThatOtherPerson> boily: btw, Google is one of the best MD5 hash crackers hth
16:46:46 <oerjan> shachaf: oh that might be. that necromancer girl was already quite seriously dead last i heard of her, so it seems unlikely (but of course in D&D not entirely impossible) that they would fight her again...
16:47:10 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, this is all presumably a hallucination due to the runes.
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16:47:38 <oerjan> indeed. although it _could_ have been prophetic itself...
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16:48:08 <shachaf> As someone pointed out the eyepatch is on the wrong eye too, etc. Presumably they're all making this up in their head based on information they know.
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17:05:59 <nooodl> shachaf: did copumpkin ever answer the "(co)products in the category of matrices" "riddle"
17:06:41 <nooodl> i've been passivly wondering about it all day but i don't even know what a product is in CT other than "it's cartesian product, in Set"
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17:07:31 <nooodl> what's a coproduct; are they also m+n for matrices
17:08:22 <Phantom__Hoover> i realise now that this'd be a lot more obvious if i'd just thought of it as the category where the objects are R^n and the morphisms are linear maps
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17:10:46 <nooodl_> "The coproduct of the family {X_j} is an object X together with a collection of morphisms i_j : X_j → X" -- hmm
17:10:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130513-trip_to_work.flac (that time again)
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17:11:12 <elliott> fizzie: should i be listening to these flacs you put up
17:11:24 <elliott> nooodl_: a coproduct is just [i need shachaf to link the diagram here]
17:11:27 <fizzie> Not if you like things with a "point".
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17:12:05 <nooodl_> if you take coproducts of "families of objects in C" how can coproducts in that category be matrix addition
17:12:24 <nooodl_> (same question for products)
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17:13:00 <nooodl_> elliott: do you mean this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coproduct-03.svg
17:14:01 <elliott> I mean the one he drew for me
17:14:27 <nooodl_> shachaf: ! this sounds good
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17:19:05 <fizzie> This time the flac was done by taking magnitude of the vector given by the Android tablet's accelerometer over my half-an-hour bicycle trip from work, sampled at 15 Hz; making a magnitude spectrogram of that; and resynthesizing with a 16 kHz sampling rate, so that e.g. 1 kHz tone in the output would correspond to a ~1 Hz component in the input.
17:19:12 <fizzie> (Also https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130513-trip_to_work_slow.flac a slowed-down version.)
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17:22:29 <ion> fizzie: cool
17:22:33 <boily> fizzie: my ears. they send strange signals to my brains. I'm being seriously weirded out by that file.
17:25:53 <fizzie> I think the annoying squeaks (okay, that doesn't really uniquely identify anything) might be occasions of actual peddling going on; the louder whistling around 22 seconds in a particular set of stairs; and the silent part at the end because there was this guy out in the yard I had to perform acts of "small talk" with.
17:28:12 <boily> bleh. squishy human to human interaction.
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17:34:10 <kmc> fizzie: cool idea!
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17:35:28 <kmc> Snowyowl: i vaguely want to enter the underhanded C contest but I don't have any great ideas and I've been putting off thinking hard about it
17:39:41 <fizzie> In related news, the two (2) Android sensor log twibblets I tried were both kind of sucky. First one didn't work at all with the screen locked, and the second just logs a time-delta from previous measurement in rounded milliseconds instead of an absolute timestamp, which is kind of silly. (Plus the delta field for one entry says it came -431 milliseconds after the preceding one... but perhaps I hit some sort of a time warp.)
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17:43:16 <Koen_> let's go explore the world! see you guys later
17:43:36 <boily> oh, netsplit! I love those.
17:43:36 <Koen_> talking about time warp
17:43:50 <Koen_> except with the net instead of the time, and split instead of warp
17:44:11 <boily> identical. they're just an affine transform from each other.
17:47:56 <boily> talk about a pervasive split.
17:48:10 <boily> by the sound of it, we lost Finland.
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17:50:05 <Taneb> It still amuses me that there is approximately 1 person who can write any decent Fueue programs, and he neither created the language nor any of the three known implementations
17:53:52 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, no, I created the language
17:54:05 <Taneb> And one of the implementations
17:54:25 <Taneb> The other two implementations were created by Arc_Koen, also known as Koen_
17:54:32 <Taneb> The one known Fueue programmer is...
17:54:47 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
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17:56:00 <Taneb> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Fueue
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18:03:22 <myname> sounds a lot like befunge in less advance
18:03:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:03:49 <Taneb> It's really not much like befunge at all
18:03:55 <Taneb> A lot closer to Underload
18:05:08 <oerjan> i suppose if befunge could delete and expand cells...
18:05:53 <oerjan> of course with that and 2d you'd soon get utter topological madness.
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18:09:14 <boily> oerjan: which is good.
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18:37:38 <boily> ironicaly, I'm on a Finnish server, and it's Finland that gets splitted off.
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18:52:45 <kmc> yesterday's episode of Veep was largely about Finland
18:53:51 <boily> everything's about Finland. I think I may know why Canada's not existing enough. that country over there is stealing our existrons!
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19:07:27 <ais523> oh good, the wiki now has a pointless boolfuck derivative
19:07:32 <ais523> to go with all the pointless brainfuck derviatives
19:08:15 <ais523> also appears to have no control flow
19:08:37 <ais523> apart from a command for ending the program, which you apparently have to use
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19:16:21 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I'm looking forward to your next Tumblr post
19:17:17 <Taneb> I've a strange feeling it's gonna be titled "Derpcode: a language whose title is both an overused and unfunny meme, and an understatement."
19:17:36 <Taneb> Or something along those lines
19:18:18 <shachaf> when's my next tumblr post
19:18:24 -!- Bike has joined.
19:18:27 <kmc> do you have a tumblerchaf
19:20:01 <Taneb> Hey, I already follow you
19:20:09 <Taneb> shachaf, follow phantom-hoover.tumblr.com
19:20:36 <Taneb> You have posted literally never
19:20:54 <shachaf> I posted a post and then deleted it. hth
19:20:58 <shachaf> You should follow me on Twitter!
19:21:07 <Taneb> Except I'm never on Twitter
19:21:17 <Taneb> Can you connect your twitter to your tumblr
19:21:26 <shachaf> You're way ahead of me on these things.
19:21:47 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, what's your opinion on a/an before the letter 'h'?
19:22:12 <Taneb> Specifically, before the word "horrific"
19:23:25 <Phantom__Hoover> also my upcoming blog post will feature the word preternatural crowbarred in somewhere
19:23:37 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: if it sounds like a vowel, use "a", otherwise use "an"
19:23:47 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I wanted Phantom__Hoover's opinion.
19:23:54 <Taneb> Do you read his Tumblr? It's quite good
19:24:27 <shachaf> imo the n should go on the word after 'a'
19:25:48 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom__Hoover: I see that you are a big fan of... bricks
19:30:26 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom__Hoover: are you a vacuum who happens to be a ghost or are you the ghost of Herbert Hoover?
19:32:38 <boily> `run ls wisdom/[Pp]*
19:32:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/parsley \ wisdom/phantom_hoover \ wisdom/phantom__hoover \ wisdom/phantom___hoover \ wisdom/phantom_______hoover \ wisdom/phantom__________hoover \ wisdom/phantom____________________hoover \ wisdom/php \ wisdom/pi \ wisdom/pie \ wisdom/pietbot \ wisdom/pizza
19:32:52 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
19:32:57 <boily> `? phantom__hoover
19:32:59 <HackEgo> Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is.
19:33:02 <HackEgo> Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. Persil est une demoiselle des Mers du Sud.
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19:33:29 <boily> why the fungot did I go and edit this one.
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19:34:39 <HackEgo> Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
19:34:59 <Taneb> Why would Herbert Hoover's ghost be from Edinburgh
19:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, so when that sword alone can't stop, you turn to pietbot?
19:35:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, unfortunately, pietbot is dead
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19:38:05 <Vorpal> Holy Crap, this laptop PSU is 180 W according to the BIOS???
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19:38:46 <fizzie> These French freenode servers are so unrelliable.
19:39:00 <fizzie> Or is it "unréliable" or something.
19:39:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: so far i have only read a foreword
19:40:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: pretty well. how to get my attn) is an easy way to to count zeros in a list
19:40:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:40:29 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
19:40:30 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Why do you think the battery is recharged with fuel rods? :)
19:40:36 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: of the spreadsheet you provided that we agreed on." " the fast.
19:41:39 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I have a even larger power brick at work, for the docking station for this laptop
19:41:48 <Vorpal> I want to check the wattage of that tomorrow
19:42:32 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but yes this is for a power hungry monster of a Core i7 mobile workstation (quite small form factor though, 15.4" I think)
19:42:48 <Vorpal> It is just barely larger than my 15.4" thinkpad
19:43:00 <Vorpal> Slightly wider, so probably 16:9 even
19:43:34 <boily> `learn unréliable is French for «peu fiable».
19:45:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, it is a pretty nice development machine though
19:45:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, with a 250 GB Intel SSD 520
19:45:42 <Vorpal> the only machine I ever used that boots windows 7 quickly, and where windows 7 is actually responsive right after login
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19:46:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Passover_margarine_shortage
19:48:10 <elliott> In addition to margarine, Tam Tam crackers were also in short supply for the 2008 Passover season.[2][5][6]
19:48:14 <fizzie> fungot's enron style is slightly lacking some preprocessing.
19:48:15 <fungot> fizzie: davis., on an as needed. double-track ( or even different) directors to be " an independent on sunday. how do we get. phil gramm of texas."
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19:53:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I enjoyed your Tumblr post
19:53:56 <Taneb> http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/post/50360554295/derpcode-a-language-whose-title-is-both-an-overused
19:54:29 <Taneb> shachaf, yeah, why not
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19:54:39 <Taneb> But Phantom_Hoover writes his himself! Why can't you!
19:55:03 <shachaf> im not as good as Phantom_Hoover...................................................................
19:56:23 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe you can read Phantom_Hoover's and take inspiration
20:00:41 <Taneb> elliott, Hexham has a town diary! Did you know?
20:00:44 <Taneb> http://www.hexhamcommunity.net/pages/town-diary.php
20:02:28 <Bike> i... don't think "haberdashery" means what Phantom_Hoover used it to mean
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20:06:01 <elliott> Taneb: you should clarify that it's a different sam hughes
20:06:14 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Thanks for letting Sam Hughes live.
20:06:29 <shachaf> (It's the good Sam Hughes, not the evil qntm.org one.)
20:06:59 <elliott> Taneb: also i suggest consulting with Phantom_Hoover wrt whether he thinks Derplang is actually any good or not
20:07:49 <elliott> also i have a feeling you may find the blog spontaneously deleted if you actually threaten to track down and kill someone :P
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20:09:23 <Bike> i see elliott isn't familiar with tumblr
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20:14:46 <Jafet> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_global_rice_crisis
20:15:02 <nooodl> do you guys know about how writing a derplang implementation that does the same thing as the lua one is almost impossible
20:15:20 <Bike> that's pretty impossible.
20:16:01 <nooodl> part of it is the spec just being really bad, but, there's some crazy stuff!! like the "hidden "loadfile "command"""
20:19:12 <Bike> also hey i thought it was derp/code/, there are two different dumb languages here
20:19:27 <nortti> umh, is that ``hidden ``loadfile ``command''''''?
20:19:56 <shachaf> no, it's «"hidden "loadfile "commad"""» hth
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20:21:09 <Bike> hidden loadfile comonad
20:21:27 <kmc> Jafet: seems like a bigger deal
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20:21:32 <lambdabot> shachaf says: [comonad] Not to be confused with edwardk's effort to standardize all the common operators for automatic differentiation, "commonad".
20:21:53 <shachaf> elliott: i stopped caring about regexp golfing. or correctness. hth
20:22:22 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Icelandic_lorry_driver_protests
20:22:39 <kmc> @tell oerjan oh, there are some cubes with an image on each face, or a logo on every square, and in that case the centers can end up wrong if you solve it the normal way
20:23:01 <shachaf> 09:01 <oerjan> ok that picture rationale makes it make sense
20:23:15 <Bike> 2008 was quite a year, huh
20:24:27 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Irish_pork_crisis
20:25:04 <Bike> " However, it has been estimated that over the course of the next century, approximately 20% of the Irish population may see a reduction in life expectancy by as much as 5 years due to the contamination of pork" uh shit
20:25:26 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_salmonellosis_outbreak
20:25:30 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
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20:28:17 <Bike> "A number of criminal prosecutions occurred, with two people being executed," that's a bit weird
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20:28:26 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canadian_listeriosis_outbreak
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20:30:45 <kmc> Bike: china
20:33:07 <Bike> it's still the wackiest thing how china is considered communist by people
20:33:15 <Bike> i mean this is straight out of The Jungle
20:35:12 <kmc> the US was also involved in massive copyright infringement in the 19th century
20:35:15 <kmc> counterfeit goods etc
20:35:27 <kmc> same shit different day
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20:43:43 <Jafet> Uh, pretty sure no one except the chinese communists think china is communist
20:44:00 <Bike> you'd be surprised!
20:45:43 <Jafet> On the other hand, communism has never been all that well defined anyway
20:45:56 <fizzie> Has U-Tube gotten rid of the "view the playlist" option that would just view a separate list page of the playlist, instead of viewing one of the videos and a playlist sidebar that's too narrow to show untruncated titles?
20:45:57 <Jafet> Since about 1990, china might be taken as the working definition
20:46:32 <fizzie> (At least IIRC formerly the small-print "view full playlist" link in the search results window went to that sort of separate list page.)
20:46:47 <Koen_> last time I used that option fizzie, that option was still there
20:47:08 <fizzie> The link is still there, but it just goes to the last video of the playlist, for me, now.
20:48:08 <Jafet> youtube-dl downloads playlists
20:49:05 <fizzie> Like, the full contents, or just... makes some sort of playlist files? (The whole point of wanting the separate list page is that I don't want to look at *all* of this crap.)
20:50:31 <Jafet> @google youtube-dl --help
20:50:32 <lambdabot> http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/download.html
20:51:40 <fizzie> "youtube-dl --help" suggests the playlist features are for downloading all (or from A to B, or matching/not matching a given regex, or up to N) videos in a playlist.
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20:52:39 <Jafet> -e, --get-title simulate, quiet but print title
20:53:55 <fizzie> I can't figure out what URL to pass to youtube-dl in order to make it download a playlist, actually.
20:55:09 <fizzie> Presumably the old separate list page would've worked, but if I could go there, I wouldn't need youtube-dl at all; youtube-dl -e of where I end up with the "view full playlist" link just prints the title of the last video.
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20:56:23 <Jafet> I can find playlist links. Perhaps you can try turning javascript off.
20:57:04 <kmc> i have a 2×2×2 cube as well
20:57:10 <`^_^v> what is a good first eso lang to build an interpreter/compiler for? extent of my knowledge is an undergrad compilers course. i don't want to do whitespace (having already looked at the code for an interpreter) or brainfuck (too overdone?)
20:58:22 <kmc> i think most esolangs don't really exercise compilers knowledge because they're designed as flat sequences of instructions
20:58:28 <ais523> pikhq_: that's probably a bad idea
20:58:42 <ais523> parsing INTERCAL is a nightmare
20:58:43 <pikhq_> boily: That's even worse.
20:58:47 <kmc> eodermdrome?
20:59:03 <elliott> befunge-93 is easy to interpret, at least.
20:59:05 <ais523> kmc: I think serious answers would be better than joke answers
20:59:20 <pikhq_> Yeah, befunge-93 can be interpreted in an afternoon.
20:59:57 <boily> maybe an optimized binary from some variant of OISC could be interesting.
21:00:14 <kmc> a tracing JIT for a typical esolang would be cool
21:00:20 <ais523> yeah, glass is actually a sensible answer
21:01:00 <fizzie> Of course it somewhat assumes that one likes Glass.
21:01:00 <Jafet> brainfuck has nearly unlimited scope for compiler optimization
21:01:24 <pikhq_> Yeah, if you're interested in optimization Brainfuck actually isn't terrible.
21:01:27 <Jafet> Most brainfuck compilers are limited to trivial things like run-length encoding
21:01:28 <`^_^v> i'll look into some of those, thanks
21:01:42 <pikhq_> Nontrivial Brainfuck optimization is an actual challenge.
21:03:28 <FreeFull> Brainfuck, where RLE encoding can be an optimisation
21:03:37 <Jafet> Research into brainfuck optimization techniques may also yield practical results; imagine the bfjoust language extensions
21:04:13 <Koen_> so what exactly do you think "practical" mean?
21:04:17 <Jafet> I wonder if x86 chips handle consecutive nops
21:04:31 <fizzie> Research into brainfuck optimization has yielded several stepping stones on the road to practical interstellar travel and curing various diseases.
21:05:00 <Bike> demyelinating disease? consider it Brain Fucked (TM) by esolang enterprises llc
21:05:07 <Jafet> Koen: antinonatheoretical
21:05:10 <pikhq_> Jafet: No, but x86 has a number of recommended nop sequences.
21:05:14 <boily> Jafet: you don't want to fiddle with the nops.
21:05:19 <Koen_> are you implying the long-awaited space lift is gonna be built out of stones?
21:05:29 <Koen_> and programmed in brainfuck
21:05:29 <pikhq_> So that you can pad code with a wide number of lengths whilst taking 1 cycle.
21:06:07 <Jafet> Advanced shellcode acceleration
21:06:41 <pikhq_> nop slides tend to prefer 0x90. :)
21:07:14 <fizzie> Multibyte nops where every suffix is still a nop sounds like a "practical" shellcode acceleration technique.
21:07:17 <boily> that question won me a raspberry in a not-quite-sober jeopardy! session.
21:07:22 <FreeFull> Multi-byte nops are good if you want to change the instruction at some point to some other multibyte instruction
21:07:27 <olsner> trust x86 to come up with so many creative ways to do nothing
21:07:45 <pikhq_> fizzie: I'm pretty sure x86 doesn't have those though.
21:08:06 <kmc> the long nops are often built with unnecessary prefix bytes
21:08:10 <kmc> so a suffix of that would also be a nop
21:08:14 <kmc> but probably not down to 1 byte
21:08:33 <olsner> if it's only prefixes and 0x90, it should work I guess
21:08:48 <Jafet> modrm is a suffix, unfortunately
21:09:02 <fizzie> pikhq_: Intel's recommended 2-byte nop is 66 NOP, for which the suffix is a nop.
21:09:48 <fizzie> The longer ones don't, at a glance, seem to have that property.
21:10:04 <fizzie> (They don't have prefixes; it's more about dummy operands.)
21:10:19 <fizzie> (Don't know if AMD's recommended NOPs are more prefixy.)
21:10:50 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.9.2/arch/x86/include/asm/nops.h
21:11:00 <olsner> it would be sort of interesting to calculate how many possible nop instructions that x86 has
21:11:37 <kmc> "mov eax, ax" doesn't assemble does it
21:11:49 <Bike> different things can be nops in different contexts, can't they?
21:11:53 <kmc> also mov eax, eax isn't a nop in 64 bit
21:12:04 <Bike> like you could play with the flags before a cmp or whatever
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21:12:11 <olsner> Bike: to make it easy let's only count the ones that are always nops
21:12:28 <Bike> booooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiing
21:13:03 <fizzie> None of the nops.h lists seem to correspond with (this version of) Intel's optimization manual.
21:13:04 <olsner> perhaps you could take instructions that are >90% likely to be nops for a random context
21:13:23 <Bike> Kind of a pointless criterion, don't you think
21:13:46 <Jafet> On ARM, 0x00000000 is and r0, r0, r0, which is the standard nop
21:13:57 <kmc> that's handy
21:14:01 <Jafet> I wonder how often strncpy is used on ARM
21:14:14 <elliott> I hear 0 isn't a nop on x86 for some deliberate reason??
21:14:37 <olsner> maybe they didn't plan for a nop, and started assigning opcodes at 0
21:14:40 <Bike> "fuck zeroes" - intel engineers
21:14:51 <fizzie> Also: "The other NOPs have no special hardware support. Their input and output registers are interpreted by the hardware. Therefore, a code generator should arrange to use the register containing the oldest value as input, so that the NOP will dispatch and release RS resources at the earliest possible opportunity."
21:15:00 <fizzie> Not that you'd expect a kernel to do that.
21:15:15 <kmc> 0000 add [rax], al
21:15:23 <kmc> udcli is the best
21:15:39 <kmc> @google udcli
21:15:40 <lambdabot> Title: udis86 disassembler library for x86
21:15:42 <fizzie> ADD r/m8, r8, more generally.
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21:16:22 <olsner> oh, it's a disassembler, I thought it was an instruction
21:16:36 <Jafet> %rip, %(lambdabot)
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21:17:05 <Bike> obviously there should be an architecture with a disass instruction
21:17:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Also: "The other NOPs have no special hardware support. Their input and output registers are interpreted by the hardware. Therefore, a code generator should arrange to use the register containing the oldest value as input, so that the NOP will dispatch and release RS resources at the earliest possible opportunity." <-- yes, but some specific ones actually have hardware support these days
21:17:29 <Jafet> VAX (?) had an execute-from-register instruction
21:17:31 <kmc> and a datass instruction
21:17:40 <Vorpal> Read the Intel Manual, it has a list of them
21:17:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was a quote from the Intel manual.
21:17:50 <Vorpal> Intel Optimization manual maybe
21:17:54 <Bike> Jafet: xec? i wanna say that was pdp
21:18:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Intel Optimization manual, in particular.
21:18:03 <Bike> or was that execute from memory
21:18:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, really? I remember reading that it optimises away the registry usage when scheduling
21:18:28 <Vorpal> Was it AMD that did that then?
21:18:44 <olsner> Jafet: S/390 has a similar one as well, I think it does something like combine an instruction in memory with immediate operand values stored in a register
21:18:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only for XCHG EAX, EAX. Though this is not the latest copy; maybe it's changed.
21:18:56 <fizzie> "Try to observe the following NOP generation priority: * Select the smallest number of NOPs and pseudo-NOPs to provide the desired padding. * Select NOPs that are least likely to execute on slower execution unit clusters. * Select the register arguments of NOPs to reduce dependencies." must be loads of joy to be a compiler developer.
21:19:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay, so it does it for that specific one at least?
21:19:08 <fizzie> (Now I'm mildly curious to see what GCC's nop-padding code looks like.)
21:19:09 <ellipsis753> Hey, I was wondering if anyone managed to make a two instruction language that's semi-turing complete? I've seen a few 3-instruction languages but non that require only 2.
21:19:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's why the quote started with "the *other* NOPs".
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21:19:26 <Bike> fsvo "instruction"
21:19:33 <Jafet> I've only seen gcc pad with 0x90
21:19:38 <olsner> Bike: plus various single combinator bases
21:19:50 <fizzie> Jafet: I'm reasonably sure it knows about the longer nops.
21:19:51 <Vorpal> Jafet, I seen it pad with mixed stuff
21:19:57 <Bike> yeah, SK is the easiest to remember though
21:19:57 <olsner> pads don't need to be nops
21:20:12 <Bike> ellipsis753: oh, and OISC, obviously
21:20:15 <olsner> just valid instructions to prevent "oops there are invalid instructions here, let's go slowly"
21:20:47 <FreeFull> ellipsis753: There is a one-instruction turing complete language
21:21:37 <Jafet> How many registers does an OISC need for completeness?
21:21:56 <Bike> I thought oisc with subleq only used memory.
21:21:58 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/UaOF <-- that's quite the NOP.
21:22:12 <fizzie> "data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)", 14 bytes.
21:22:24 <kmc> there is a maximum valid instruction length though
21:22:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does data32 mean?
21:22:28 <olsner> nopw? boring! it should say what the instruction is
21:22:32 <Jafet> Bike: how much memory, then
21:22:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: The operand size override prefix.
21:22:42 <kmc> Vorpal: it's an operand size override
21:22:57 <Vorpal> That you can repeat like that?
21:23:17 <Bike> How many brainfuck cells are needed again?
21:23:18 <olsner> hmm, but doesn't the operand size prefix give you 16-bit operand size in long mode?
21:23:54 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think they have more than one name for it. But not sure.
21:24:32 <Vorpal> Bike, 3 of infinite size iirc? Or infinite one-bit
21:24:34 <fizzie> With -m32 it decides to go with two seven-byte nops; lea 0x0(%esi,%eiz,1),%esi; lea 0x0(%edi,%eiz,1),%edi
21:24:48 <fizzie> (Clearly it's thinking about the registers, given that it's used different regs for those two.)
21:24:57 <olsner> dummy register to specify instruction encoding?
21:25:04 <Jafet> You can't use one-bit memory with an OISC because you wouldn't be able to address most of it.
21:25:20 <Vorpal> olsner, I would guess it is the register iz extended to 32 bits?
21:25:28 <Vorpal> But I never heard of an iz register
21:25:30 <pikhq_> Vorpal: There's no such register.
21:25:33 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, it's gas's silly name for a zero in that context.
21:25:52 <kmc> probably relates to the hilaribad libopcodes API
21:26:04 <kmc> they can't just write 0x0(%esi,0,1)
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21:26:35 <olsner> a hysterical raisin then
21:27:00 <Jafet> Or in fact that is just (%esi)
21:27:44 <olsner> the index is always a register, I think
21:27:45 <ellipsis753> Ok. I was a little vague but I think the answer may be that there is non yet in the form I am looking for. A language which requires no registers and just two a program and data tape. Two instructions that take no arguments and do not rely on anything on the program tape for meaning. NOP counts as an instruction. Sort of turing complete as in must be able to do any calculation in finite memory (so doesn't need to
21:27:45 <ellipsis753> be able to allocate more). Does not need input/output and memory mapping seems like cheating. Does that make sense and does such a language exist? I was thinking of trying to make something out of only analog components and tape that could interprete one of these simple languages.
21:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> sad grownup realisation of the week: letting taneb assume my identity to make violent threats to random people over the internet may not be a great move
21:28:22 <Bike> "able to do any calculation in finite memory" isn't true of turing machines~
21:28:37 <fizzie> The padding depends on the architecture, of course. If I tell it to do -march=barcelona (AMD thing), it aligns functions to 32 bytes with two data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1) instructions.
21:28:42 <ais523> you're describing a "bounded-storage machine"
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21:28:53 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you're a grownup now? welcome to boringland
21:29:20 <ellipsis753> Bike, those look cool. Although ideally I'd like to have no registers.
21:29:45 <Bike> SK doesn't have any registers. bam solved
21:30:07 <ellipsis753> Bike, Ok. Sort of turing complete as in forth.
21:30:08 <Bike> I'm not sure what you mean by not relying on the tape for meaning
21:30:19 <Vorpal> What about the 2,3 thing that ais proved TC?
21:30:48 <Vorpal> ellipsis753, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-3_turing_machine
21:31:18 <ellipsis753> Bike, I mean, nothing like "Read the next 5 bits to work out what this single instruction does. Then jump 6 bits ahead".
21:31:21 <Vorpal> guy from in here proved it TC
21:32:23 <Jafet> Boringland: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/kadmy/kadmy1008/kadmy100800061/7565319-huge-construction-equipment-metal-bore-for-earth-drilling-machine.jpg
21:32:37 <Bike> ellipsis753: Would you consider an increment instruction to violate that? I mean, the state of the tape afterwards relies on the state of the tape before its execution.
21:33:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also I don't think it's all *that* sanctioned to put in redundant prefixes; it just works. From what I recall, the Intel manual doesn't quite explicitly forbid it, but doesn't allow it either. (The chapter on instruction format says "it is only useful to include up to one prefix code from each of the four groups", but doesn't say what happens if you decide to be not useful. Possibly some of the figures also imply an upper limit.)
21:35:46 <fizzie> It does explicitly say "use of repeat prefixes [that is, rep] -- with other [than string / I/O] instructions is reserved; such use may cause unpredictable behaviour", which makes that rep ret thing a bit funny.
21:35:48 <kmc> i think the maximum instruction length is 15 bytes
21:36:45 <Vorpal> kmc, even with AVX and all that modern stuff?
21:37:21 <ellipsis753> Bike, increment instruction as to increase a number on the data tape? No I only have issues with an instruction relying on other instructions. (on the program tape). However ideally if the data tape only contained bits it would be a lot easier to make.
21:37:43 <kmc> not positive
21:37:45 <ellipsis753> Vorpal, That's interesting, however surely it requires 3 instructions (and 2 states?)
21:37:53 <fizzie> 15 has at least been one of the limits.
21:38:25 <olsner> 15 is still mentioned in the manuals that are new enough to have AVX
21:38:39 <olsner> (but that doesn't rule out an exception for them)
21:38:54 <fizzie> The optimization manual says, on the topic of the Pentium M's decoder, that the "first decoder is capable of decoding one macroinstruction -- it can handle any number of bytes up to the maximum of 15." But that's very circumstancial evidence.
21:40:41 <fizzie> Shame there's no 256-bit immediates in AVXy stuff.
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21:41:18 <Bike> ellipsis753: how do you distinguish "other instructions" from say numbers
21:42:27 <ellipsis753> Bike, the program tape would normally be read only and never be read other than for the current instruction being run currently. It should not store numbers.
21:42:57 <Bike> it kind of does, for your question you'll need a very well understood notion of "instruction"
21:43:40 <Bike> for example, with the 2-3 machine, you're apparently counting each symbol as an instruction, whereas with other m-n machines you'd count them just as data
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21:45:43 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/PSgf "ah, screw it, I give up", says GCC.
21:46:57 <olsner> keep trying, maybe there's a magic align-functions value that will give you an awesome easter egg
21:48:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about 48?
21:49:33 <olsner> I think it only accepts powers of two, it doesn't even bother aligning otherwise
21:49:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: It has a different meaning for non-power-of-two sizes.
21:49:39 <kmc> istr that functions in the linux kernel aren't aligned; this was a problem because ksplice can't patch a function with fewer than 5 bytes of code
21:50:26 <kmc> there were some cases where we would hot-patch a function to do nothing, but we'd add some NOPs in case we had to patch it again
21:50:42 <fizzie> Vorpal, olsner: -falign-functions=24 means "align to 32 bytes but only if you can do it by skipping 23 bytes or less".
21:50:49 <Vorpal> kmc, you were involved in ksplice?
21:51:10 <Bike> fizzie: is that ever needed
21:51:20 <fizzie> Bike: No idea, but that's what it means.
21:51:33 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah I worked there for the 8 months before it was bought by oracle
21:51:36 <fizzie> "-falign-functions=n: Align the start of functions to the next power-of-two greater than n, skipping up to n bytes. For instance, -falign-functions=32 aligns functions to the next 32-byte boundary, but -falign-functions=24 aligns to the next 32-byte boundary only if this can be done by skipping 23 bytes or less."
21:51:59 <olsner> rough guess, some alignment speed vs space trade off control
21:52:05 <kmc> definitely my favorite job ever
21:52:06 <ellipsis753> Wikipedia also considers them instructions "executes the instructions in the following table". Unless I'm mistaken. But yes, you're correct. I'm being bad at explaining myself. Sorry. I guess I'm currently thinking of trying to implement something like minifuck (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minifuck) and wondered if anyone had managed to get it down to just two commands.
21:52:23 <kmc> what's funny is that then I worked with mostly the same people on a different project (web startup) and it was a bad fit and I left
21:52:53 <kmc> i thought that the job was all about the people but now I'm more cynical
21:53:05 <kmc> plus it wasn't *exactly* the same people, some of them went elsewhere and they brought in others
21:53:17 <olsner> seems odd for people working on ksplice to go work on a web startup
21:53:38 <elliott> the k in ksplice stands for kmc
21:53:49 <kmc> there's way more money in webapps than in technically complex computer systems work
21:54:04 <kmc> and like, they'd already done the latter, so why not try something different
21:54:09 <kmc> which is what I thought as well, but I didn't like it
21:54:19 <elliott> is there actually way more money in cloning IRC
21:54:24 <elliott> like don't enterprises and shit care about ksplice
21:54:48 <kmc> shrug, their target price for selling the new company is way more than what ksplice sold for
21:55:02 <kmc> it's still a long way from that happening
21:55:09 <olsner> the goal was to sell the company? not to make whatever you made?
21:55:09 <elliott> this business model where you start off by planning to get bought out......
21:55:16 <elliott> because you can't make a profit because you have no actual business model
21:55:25 <elliott> fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk startups
21:55:26 <kmc> well ksplice was making a profit
21:55:36 <kmc> though 'making a profit' is pretty arbitrary
21:55:38 <Bike> elliott, maoist revolutionary software developer
21:55:45 <kmc> if you have revenue, you can put it in the bank or you can spend it on growth
21:55:58 <kmc> it would be idiotic if a small company planning on rapid growth had a lot of cash in the bank
21:56:18 <kmc> so even when startups have a reliable revenue stream, they tend to be just-under-profitable
21:57:09 <kmc> now I agree that companies with no business model which are just getting bought on hype are dumb
21:57:15 <kmc> but that's a more specific case than just "not profitable"
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21:58:54 <Bike> ELLIOTT FOR PRESIDENT
21:58:59 <kmc> getting bought is a popular option now because the regulatory burden of an IPO is a lot more onerous after the Sarbanes-Oxley Act
21:59:06 <Bike> president of maoism
21:59:19 <kmc> you'll recall that in the '90's dot com boom there were a lot of IPOs of just-formed companies
21:59:26 <kmc> and not so much in the current bubble
21:59:32 <kmc> well elliott won't recall because he was an infant then
22:00:01 <kmc> anyway people do also start companies with the intent to keep them small and make a steady stream of revenue and have a fun job and be your own boss and whatever
22:00:07 <kmc> sometimes called "lifestyle business"
22:00:09 <kmc> dumb term I know
22:00:13 <kmc> but that's not typically what's meant by "startup"
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22:00:43 <kmc> "startup" implies rapid growth
22:00:46 <Bike> is lifestyle capitalism like lifestyle anarchism (except you get money)
22:01:06 <kmc> i'm no fan of paul graham as you all know, but he does know this world and i thought http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html was a pretty good essay
22:02:13 <olsner> hmm, growth? why would you do anything for growth?
22:02:32 <kmc> because you can get rich
22:02:47 <kmc> if you own 20% of a business and it grows by a factor of 1000
22:02:50 <kmc> then you are rich as fuck
22:02:57 -!- Tod-Autojoined has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:03:14 <Bike> like kmc's hero, paul graham.
22:03:32 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined.
22:03:37 <olsner> I see, I guess that motives the hell out of some people
22:03:48 <kmc> money is useful
22:03:59 <kmc> no matter what your goals are in life, having a bunch of money tends to help
22:04:38 <elliott> kmc: i'm younger than you so i probably have longer to accomplish all your goals, therefore give me all of your money
22:04:46 <kmc> money doesn't buy happiness but it buys the freedom to pursue happiness, and the power to help others in ways you can't directly help them
22:05:29 <elliott> pretty sure money actually does buy a lot of happiness
22:05:59 <olsner> some money does, more money than that doesn't (or does but much less efficiently)
22:06:06 <kmc> people tend to assume that the pursuit of money implies the pursuit of shitty status symbols like a fancy car
22:06:09 <pikhq_> It doesn't buy happiness, but it sure as hell permits it.
22:06:13 <kmc> but it's your money, you can spend it on what you find worthwhile
22:08:12 <kmc> one could argue that "money doesn't buy happiness" is propaganda that the ruling / capital-owning class uses to dull the economic self-interest of the working class
22:12:15 <kmc> back later
22:13:31 <olsner> anyway, the point I forgot to make was that the goal of your startup (grow it and sell it) was probably the reason it was so crappy compared to previous projects with the same people
22:13:53 <shachaf> Bike: should i see the film _The Bridge Over the River Kwai_
22:14:30 <shachaf> oh, wait, it's only playing this thu-fri anyway
22:14:43 <shachaf> Is there any film I could ask you about that you wouldn't say I should watch?
22:15:05 <Bike> Yeah, like... Avatar.
22:16:08 <shachaf> Bike: How about I see it if you see a nother film?
22:16:41 <Bike> well, get back to me when you've made your decision.
22:17:24 <Bike> http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BODk0NzYzMzc4OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTQyNTUyMQ@@._V1_SY317_CR2,0,214,317_.jpg looks p. intense
22:18:00 <shachaf> i watched it on someone's recommendation and enjoyed it
22:18:07 <shachaf> it's not the same sort of film as that other film, though
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22:30:07 <Bike> don't like what
22:30:21 <Bike> i don't know, i haven't seen it
22:30:35 <shachaf> and you aren't going to, either?
22:33:17 <Bike> well, is it your decision
22:33:35 <shachaf> If I see this film you'll see that one?
22:38:09 <shachaf> i suspect i might be getting the better end of that deal
22:38:38 <olsner> depends on which kinds of movies you both enjoy
22:39:25 <olsner> bridge over the river kwai is probably "better", but funny bones looks funnier
22:39:55 <olsner> then you should love the bridge over the river kwai
22:40:07 <olsner> (unless that has comedy in it)
22:40:46 <olsner> have you been to ikea at closing time? they play the theme from that movie to get people to speed up to the checkout
22:41:11 <shachaf> i've only been in sweden for two days in my life
22:41:25 <olsner> ikea exists everywhere, hth
22:42:26 <Bike> I don't understand what that "hth" could possibly mean.
22:42:55 <olsner> Bike: it means hth, hth
22:43:20 <shachaf> Bike: listen to olsner hth
22:44:31 <fizzie> "Hyperbolic tange here"?
22:44:35 <olsner> I'll just go hth myself into bed
22:44:56 <fungot> fizzie: if we do not as a matter of the last few years.
22:45:08 <fungot> fizzie: by the time we tried to keep that in mind that the true costs.
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22:55:09 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy should i see Bike's film
22:57:08 <shachaf> That's why I get double 'e's.
22:57:15 <fizzie> ^ask mnoqy Should shachaf see Bike's film?
22:57:15 <fungot> Yeah, I'll get right on that. (Not.)
22:57:27 <Bike> Don't be an asshole, fungot.
22:57:28 <fungot> Bike: on the first i finally, we came to the transactions of others we hoped it would have the time to get to the last two and a one of a/ a program of the messages that have the public.
22:57:37 <fungot> Yeah, I'll get right on that. (Not.)
22:57:56 <fungot> (Yeah, I'll get right on that. (Not.))S
22:58:00 <shachaf> If I get press it with a particular strength. I get two 'e's.
22:59:53 <ion> @type (not.)
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00:07:56 <Bike> or rather, https://twitter.com/search?q=%23philoSeinfeld
00:08:59 <Sgeo> shachaf, apparently the 'happy ending' prophecy is supposed to reassure the reader that the story has a happy ending
00:10:57 <Sgeo> From the forums
00:10:58 <Sgeo> 'Guys, you can stop freaking out about this being Elan's prophecy. War and XPs commentary says his prophecy is a word from the Giant to the readers that when the entire story is over Elan will have a happy ending, and that while things might get scary for a while they will work out in the end.'
00:12:01 <kmc> it was a huge mistake to join a company started by my friends
00:12:10 <kmc> even though the only reason they were my friends was that I worked at a previous company they started
00:12:17 <kmc> such are the dumb paradoxes of my life
00:13:32 <shachaf> Sgeo: imo plz arrange for another update this friday thx
00:14:09 <Sgeo> shachaf, would you actually be upset if it happened sooner than Friday?
00:14:25 <shachaf> I wouldn't be upset if one happened sooner than Friday.
00:14:30 <shachaf> As long as one happened on Friday.
00:15:16 <Sgeo> Is Friday your birthday or something?
00:17:33 <kmc> on the rubik's cube you can rotate two adjacent centers by π/2 or rotate a single center by π
00:17:38 <shachaf> Well, I mean, I'm sure it's *something*.
00:18:21 <shachaf> You could just say 1/2 and 1/4.
00:18:38 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe angles should be measured in the reciprocal of the fraction of a full turn.
00:18:52 <shachaf> So 1 is a full turn, 2 is a half turn, 4 is a quarter turn.
00:19:43 <shachaf> What should I call this "unit"?
00:19:43 <Bike> so arc length would be pi/angle? that's not too bad
00:20:18 <kmc> shachaf: the shachaf
00:20:54 <shachaf> maybe i'll call it an ungle because it's not really an angle................................
00:20:54 <kmc> the elcric
00:21:16 <kmc> is that a portmanteau of "shit" and "angle"
00:23:24 <Bike> Oh, what's the equivalent zero radians?
00:24:51 <shachaf> I'll call it the "nurt" because it's the opposite of a turn.
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00:29:27 <shachaf> > over (partsOf (traverse.filtered (`notElem`"aeiou"))) reverse "turn"
00:29:38 <shachaf> > over (partsOf (traverse.filtered (`notElem`"aeiou"))) reverse "turn"
00:29:38 <shachaf> > over (partsOf (traverse.filtered (`notElem`"aeiou"))) reverse "turn"
00:29:39 <shachaf> > over (partsOf (traverse.filtered (`notElem`"aeiou"))) reverse "turn"
00:30:28 <kmc> lambdabot needs to go to rehab
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00:37:42 <shachaf> Once upon a time there was a YouTube video called «"Rehab" - 1934 Noel Coward Original»
00:37:46 <shachaf> It seems to have been deleted.
00:37:53 <shachaf> I think it was just audio.
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00:49:01 <shachaf> PBKDF2 isn't just "iterations of" SHA1.
00:49:13 <kmc> yes I know
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00:52:58 <elliott> is this cross-channel talk
00:53:10 <elliott> kmc and shachaf must be in some exciting places
00:53:16 <kmc> just ##crypto
00:53:36 <elliott> sounds like a depressing channel
00:53:41 <kmc> it's pretty good actually
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00:53:55 <elliott> because i hate thinking about it
00:54:11 <shachaf> the view from the left depresses me
00:54:16 <shachaf> because i don't know how to read
00:54:47 <shachaf> why do you think i'm always so offtopic........i literally never read anything anyone says
00:54:56 <Bike> ##viewfromtheleft?
00:55:04 <shachaf> @google view from the left
00:55:15 <shachaf> lambdabot..................................
00:55:38 <elliott> how do you know lambdabot didn't reply
00:55:50 <shachaf> because lambdabot isn't in this channel
00:55:57 <elliott> how do you know what i said
00:56:45 <kmc> lambdabot is passed out in a ditch
00:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, this wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have n set
00:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> lets you send messages to a channel without joining it
00:58:40 <shachaf> We have it off in $THAT_CHANNEL
01:11:01 <shachaf> stay out of my namesake channel
01:21:02 <Bike> Gregor isn't voiced right now
01:21:41 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
01:22:20 <shachaf> Oh, elliott can +v now, right.
01:23:42 <copumpkin> I want an hmac-memorable-email server
01:23:59 <copumpkin> I own copumpk.in, and want to allocate email addresses on it based on who I give them to
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01:24:26 <copumpkin> so if I sign up for amazon on it, I'd have amazon.a42be@copumpk.in or something like that
01:24:35 <copumpkin> I explicitly don't want the + scheme
01:25:08 <copumpkin> what's something good to build on to handle your own mail?
01:25:18 <copumpkin> I'd probably just end up forwarding it to gmail :)
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01:26:58 <elliott> wow, useful things. this is absolutely not my area of expertise.
01:27:19 <copumpkin> I'm sick of my email getting sold and not knowing who sold it
01:27:27 <copumpkin> I want to be able to blacklist addresses
01:27:39 <copumpkin> and the + scheme doesn't work because it's easy to drop
01:28:30 <Gregor> Ideally you'd have it encoded in some way, such that dropping it produces an invalid address and randomizing it also produces an invalid address.
01:28:47 <copumpkin> the second half is basically a simple hmac-alike of the first half
01:29:02 <copumpkin> I can just take a prefix of a real hmac
01:29:35 <kmc> that's a cool idea
01:31:57 <elliott> copumpkin: do I get a fancy copumpkin email address to send to
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01:43:18 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if lenses have anything in common with jQuery
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01:52:01 <Sgeo> ...no lambdabot
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02:06:45 <shachaf> Guess what I found at the store today!
02:07:08 <kmc> shachaf: if I move to SF you will tell me the places to buy jaffa cakes??
02:07:20 <shachaf> kmc: is jaffa cakes a euphemism for drugs
02:07:32 <shachaf> this place is in palo alto
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02:07:38 <kmc> maybe on Brass Eye
02:07:42 <shachaf> anyway i've never had jaffa cakes before
02:07:45 <kmc> shachaf: also how much did you pay
02:07:54 <kmc> you can buy jaffa cakes in Cambridge but they are $$$$$
02:07:57 <kmc> not like Other Cabridge
02:08:32 <copumpkin> isn't there a really expensive jaffa cake in CA now?
02:08:50 <shachaf> Ah. Yes, that's what I thought.
02:08:53 <shachaf> These are, uh, from Serbia?
02:10:11 <copumpkin> come on, you can do that in your head
02:10:51 <shachaf> copumpkin: I was subtly communicating to you how many jaffa cakes I now possess.
02:11:03 <shachaf> I have to find indirect ways of showing off.
02:11:10 <elliott> i'm worse at arithmetic than gwern
02:11:17 <copumpkin> you still could have done that by performing the calculation
02:11:29 <shachaf> But then elliott wouldn't know.
02:11:42 <shachaf> I heard that elliott is worse than arithmetic than gwern.
02:15:08 <shachaf> when is kmc moving to SF................
02:15:21 <elliott> he's waiting for me to okay the move
02:15:52 <shachaf> Hmm. Should I send my sister some citric acid powder?
02:19:12 <shachaf> kmc: These are from http://www.jaffa.rs/
02:19:54 <shachaf> http://www.jaffa.rs/jaffa-cakes-classic
02:20:07 <elliott> pretty sure you'll find they only count if McVities™ makes them
02:20:27 <shachaf> I was worried about something like that.
02:20:46 <elliott> you are granted official british permission to import them
02:21:13 <shachaf> elliott: do "cadbury flake" exist in where you are
02:22:04 <shachaf> do you admit that Mekupelet is better
02:22:20 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekupelet
02:23:16 <elliott> It is known for its crumbliness and thin flakes.
02:23:56 <shachaf> Only the crumbliest, flakiest chocolate, tastes like chocolate never tasted before
02:24:13 <elliott> http://marcos.kirsch.mx/2006/05/05/elite-mekupelet-vs-cadbury-flake/
02:24:59 <shachaf> It was a really tight contest and to be frank I don’t feel like scrolling up and counting how many points each one had. So the debate remains unsettled.
02:26:28 <shachaf> Wikipedia's picture -- http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Mekupelet.jpg -- has less boring text
02:26:46 <shachaf> "to the last crumb", it says
02:27:00 <shachaf> Well, it says "until". I took the liberty of changing it to "to".
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02:28:05 <elliott> shachaf: you can buy and mail me some Mekupelet and I will give you my opinion on it
02:28:09 <elliott> I am willing to pay for shipping
02:28:29 <shachaf> elliott: Gladly, next time I'm in .il.
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02:29:05 <elliott> also you have to promise not to give my address to Taneb.
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02:30:13 <shachaf> Why don't you want Taneb to know your address?
02:30:38 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I can get hold of Mekupelet here.
02:31:23 <elliott> it's epistemologically important
02:31:32 <Bike> Not ontologically?
02:31:44 <shachaf> Maybe I can get someone in .il to mail some to you...
02:31:56 <shachaf> Will you send me some Cadbury Flake?
02:32:03 <shachaf> I bet that's easier to get hold of over here.
02:32:25 <elliott> pretty sure that should just be available in stores in the US?? surely you have regular ol chocolate
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02:33:12 <shachaf> elliott: Where would I find it?
02:33:16 <shachaf> I don't think I've ever seen it.
02:34:02 <shachaf> $5 for 6-count with free shipping.
02:34:16 <elliott> don't they have like british stores
02:34:23 <elliott> I heard something about that
02:34:37 <shachaf> British Grocery - CLOSED - Mission - San Francisco, CA - Yelp
02:34:41 <shachaf> i guess there are no more brits
02:34:41 <Bike> is there a lot of demand for that in SF
02:34:54 <Bike> or wherever shachaf is i forget
02:34:59 <kmc> fish and chips burrito
02:35:45 <shachaf> elliott: OK, what's your address? I won't tell Taneb.
02:35:47 <elliott> i believe there are likely british people in san francisco
02:35:54 <shachaf> I'll see what I can Arrange.
02:36:00 <elliott> shachaf: 10 downing street, hexham
02:36:13 <shachaf> are you the king of hexham
02:36:21 <Bike> The prime minister.
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02:36:36 <shachaf> i was trying to be ignorant of british things
02:36:43 <pikhq_> shachaf: No, the King lives in Bucking Ham Palace.
02:37:02 <Bike> "fuck you, ham", the official motto of england
02:37:13 <Bike> except in latin probably
02:56:00 <shachaf> elliott: Also: There's a white chocolate Mekupelet. Is there a white chocolate Cadbury Flake?
02:57:17 <Sgeo> Someone I knew in high school works for Long Island Medium now :(
03:00:44 <Sgeo> It feels weird
03:09:55 <kmc> can you buy a 1×1×1 rubiks cube
03:10:13 <Bike> I believe they're called "cubes"
03:14:17 <shachaf> I had a 2×2×2 Rubik's cube once.
03:18:48 <kmc> i have one right here
03:18:59 <kmc> found it in a free pile
03:19:05 <kmc> the white face says "6 0\n0 6"
03:19:14 <kmc> or is it.... "9 0\n0 9"???
03:19:18 <shachaf> 08:59 <oerjan> * kmc is learning the moves for rotating the centers of a Rubik's cube <-- is that something zen-like...
03:19:31 <shachaf> The zen-like thing is rotating the center of a 2×2×2 Rubik's cube.
03:50:12 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think of suburbia
03:53:12 <kmc> the... type of place?
03:53:24 <Lymia> 9x9 Sudoku rubix cubes
03:54:02 <shachaf> fractional dimension rubik's cubes
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04:43:40 <shachaf> @vixen vs. @nixon: Who is more offensive?
04:43:40 <lambdabot> Certainly in the next 50 years we shall see a woman president, perhaps sooner than you think. A woman can and should be able to do any political job that a man can do.
04:43:53 <shachaf> @vixen What do you think of monoids?
04:43:54 <lambdabot> A public man must never forget that he loses his usefulness when he as an individual, rather than his policy, becomes the issue.
04:44:11 <shachaf> @vixen Come on, say something juicy.
04:44:11 <kappabot> you know what? if we'd known it was going to be like this we'd have picked our own goddamn cotton!
04:44:12 <lambdabot> You know, it's a funny thing, every one of the bastards that are out for legalizing marijuana is Jewish. What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob? What is the matter with them? I suppose it
04:44:12 <lambdabot> is because most of them are psychiatrists.
04:45:09 <kmc> apparently i'm jewish
04:45:20 <kmc> i have so much to learn
04:45:22 <Bike> congratulations, you're god's chosen stoner
04:45:28 <shachaf> @vixen Tell me more kmc facts!
04:45:29 <lambdabot> The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger - but recognize the opportunity.
04:46:00 <Bike> what a horrid little anecdote
04:46:20 <pikhq_> And not even slightly true.
04:46:53 <Bike> i remember hearing that "chaos" was two of the characters for "women" under a line (one roof)
04:47:01 <kmc> dude nixon *went* to china
04:47:03 <kmc> he is the expert
04:47:03 <Bike> and a chinese speaker came in and was like "what are you even talking about"
04:47:33 <Bike> nixon in china is a pretty good opera
04:48:36 <coppro> I want to see that one
04:48:47 <Bike> there's a performance on youtube
04:48:51 <Bike> way superior to the valis opera, imo
04:49:05 <pikhq_> Sounds like you mixed 安 "peace" (roof, woman) and 姦 "adultery" (three women) somehow.
04:49:15 <coppro> my school's amateur theatre group actually has a director
04:49:22 <coppro> this is like six months early
04:49:37 <Bike> pikhq_: i think i looked it up and found some obscure character for "battle" or something that almost fit if you were dumb
04:50:09 <kappabot> is that really what you want to know?
04:50:10 <lambdabot> Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people.
04:50:24 <shachaf> @vixen i nitya to be honest with me
04:50:24 <lambdabot> I brought myself down. I impeached myself by resigning.
04:51:30 <kmc> adultery is *three* women eh
04:51:47 <shachaf> Bike: You should follow me on Twitter!
04:51:48 <pikhq_> Or "seduction" or "rape" or a number of things.
04:52:00 <pikhq_> The general semantics for that are kinda "anything improper in sex".
04:52:14 <Bike> why do programmers know so little about programming. it's like if one lumberjack looked at a tree's shadow and was like "shit this is gonna be hard" and another one's like "no, see, there's a cloud over it, it'll be easy"
04:52:25 <Bike> shachaf: what's twitter
04:52:40 <shachaf> Bike: it's like tumblr except kmc uses it
04:52:41 <kmc> Bike: and then they each wrote 2,000 word blog posts about how to hire and manage lumberjacks
04:53:05 <Bike> how do i get in on this twittering
04:53:16 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/shachaf -- click "follow"
04:53:20 <kmc> if you want to be taken seriously as a lumberjack, you need to do some lumberjacking on your own time and upload your logs to LogHub
04:53:24 <shachaf> then follow the instructions hth
04:53:37 <kmc> this shows that you have a passion for lumberjacking, not like those evil greedy people who just want to get paid for doing a job
04:53:53 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/8bd807033be7887e1d08fb29763ea3b6/tumblr_mmr1tg53J21qzgnzho1_500.jpg but seriously
04:54:08 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hyperloglog is edwardk's approach to lumberjacking
04:54:12 <Bike> shachaf: it says you haven't twittered.
04:55:18 <kmc> my twitname is @miuaf
04:55:29 <Bike> wow look at all those dependencies
04:55:36 <Bike> i don't know if i can commit to this!
04:58:25 <Bike> "People love OSI. When they find out it's BS they're floored. Like physics students who learn that electrons aren't little whirling planets." OSI?
04:58:57 <kmc> OSI network model
04:58:59 <kmc> 7 layer dip
04:58:59 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model
04:59:14 <Bike> Oh. How's it a lie? layer crossing?
04:59:32 <Bike> "What math book will tell me if I properly formalized the semantics of HTTP caching headers?" sassy
04:59:34 <kmc> well, the layers are aware of each other in various ways
04:59:40 <kmc> also mostly there aren't 7
05:00:00 <pikhq_> The OSI model was the model used in a particular network protocol, that we don't use at all.
05:00:10 <kmc> really there are only like 4 layers, but then you reimplement that over HTTP and then reimplement that over HTTP again because that's the world we live in
05:01:15 <pikhq_> Ethernet is layers 1 and 2, IP is 3, TCP is 4 through 5, your program is 6 and 7. (basically)
05:02:52 <kmc> also a lot of networks use reliable link protocols, I learned recently
05:02:58 <kmc> 3G networks
05:03:07 <kmc> and WiFi has some link layer retransmits too, although I think it's not totally reliable
05:03:55 <pikhq_> Even Ethernet uses checksums.
05:04:12 <pikhq_> Though I think that's in OSI layer 4?
05:04:17 <Bike> "The incoherency of HN’s folk sociology/philosophy/psychology really undercuts their snottiness about non-engineering educations" hey nice summary
05:04:26 <kmc> TCP assumes that packet loss is solely caused by buffers filling up, but wireless networks have lots of stochastic, non-congestive loss, from radio interference or whatever
05:04:48 <kmc> so for TCP to perform well on these networks, the link layer has to hide non-congestive loss
05:05:22 <Bike> also btw, you mentioned syrian internet going offline, but it's back up
05:05:37 <pikhq_> Yeah, it was down for ~24 hours.
05:05:40 <Bike> i think the government might have claimed a nameserver was bombed
05:05:58 <kmc> btw this directly interferes with the goal of fixing TCP flow control to deal with non-congestive loss
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05:09:40 <pikhq_> Which is really the important thing.
05:10:26 <Bike> i don't think many people are browsing twitter there nowadays anyway
05:10:34 <Bike> maybe in the west
05:11:47 <Bike> kmc: do you know what this thing is? https://camp2013.tacticaltech.org/
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05:12:10 <kmc> interesting
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05:14:52 <shachaf> oh no did something happen
05:15:44 <kmc> look, sometimes I just don't want to participate in a given conversation; you don't have to make a Big Deal out of it
05:16:13 <kmc> especially in another channel with mostly a different set of people
05:16:18 <kmc> who will then demand more context
05:16:20 <Bike> uh? sorry? did i do something wrong
05:16:21 <kmc> which makes it an even Bigger Deal
05:16:24 <kmc> no but shachaf did
05:16:45 <kmc> i left another channel because I didn't want to get drawn into a conversation that was making me angry
05:16:49 <kmc> it's no biggie, I'll be back in a bit
05:16:56 <kmc> I think this is healthy behavior.....
05:17:02 <kmc> it's all right
05:17:10 <kmc> I am only mildly annoyed
05:17:37 <kmc> ##crypto didn't answer my question about why MAC-then-encrypt is bad :(
05:17:40 * shachaf usually thinks of leaving a channel as a Bigger Deal than leaving a conversation.
05:17:58 <kmc> well I think I know why, but I want to confirm
05:18:21 <shachaf> But I suppose it's not necessarily a Big Deal.
05:18:39 <kmc> shachaf: the thing is that I have poor self-control; if the channel is open in irssi I will have to switch to it, and then I'll read what's been said
05:18:42 <kmc> and then i might reply
05:18:45 <kmc> see also: #haskell
05:19:07 <Jafet> Why are you even reading channels that you join, kmc
05:19:11 <Jafet> Such poor self-control
05:19:17 <shachaf> IRC is for writing, not reading.
05:19:29 <kmc> it's not just that the conversation was making me angry, but that I don't actually have the factual knowledge necessary to support the position that my emotions were pushing me toward
05:19:33 <kmc> nothing good can come of that
05:20:04 <Jafet> ##crypto usually has a low ratio of factual knowledge anyway
05:20:19 <kmc> er the channel in question is not ##crypto
05:20:27 <kmc> and I think they're pretty knowledgable
05:20:47 <kmc> what I said about ##crypto was a non-sequitor, sorry
05:20:58 <kmc> slash attempt to change topic
05:21:22 <shachaf> Is SSL really MAC-then-encrypt?
05:21:27 <kmc> believe so
05:24:00 <kmc> at least in the typical CBC / HMAC modes
05:24:10 <kmc> GCM isn't, of course
05:24:59 <shachaf> Hmm, I ordered some chocolate to elliott for some reason.
05:25:04 <Jafet> kmc: http://www.imperialviolet.org/2013/02/04/luckythirteen.html
05:26:20 <kmc> <kmc> it seems like the fundamental problem is that it exposes a decryption operation to untrusted data
05:26:31 <kmc> <kmc> which means exposing possible side channels (timing, padding oracle) as well as vulnerabilities in the decryption code
05:26:39 <kmc> <kmc> is that a fair summary?
05:28:29 <Bike> «Let's replace "brain" w/ "kidney" in all neuromyths. "We only use 10% of our kidneys." "Your left kidney is logical; right one's creative."» oh god yes
05:31:49 <kmc> Bike: i'm glad you approve of things I have retweeted :)
05:32:23 <shachaf> kmc: You can add people to "lists" in Twitter and then you see their tweets but not their retweets. :-(
05:32:28 <Bike> i am requoting your retweet
05:32:34 <Bike> i am internetting this hard
05:32:34 <shachaf> (But the lists can be private so that people don't know whom you're following.)
05:32:38 <Jafet> For how much can I sell my left brain
05:32:40 <kmc> shachaf: interesting
05:32:48 <kmc> I've also seen that you can "hide retweets" on someone's profile page
05:32:58 <shachaf> I would follow people except that I don't want my followee list to be public.
05:33:05 <kmc> Bike: instagramming your requot of my retweet
05:33:13 <kmc> gifing that and posting it to tumblr
05:33:47 <shachaf> You should register miuaf.com etc.
05:34:17 <kmc> don't want to talk about names
05:34:31 <Bike> Jafet: just fyi there are actually surgical procedures where people get a hemisphere of their brain removed
05:34:36 <Bike> (and they don't die)
05:34:42 <shachaf> Which hemisphere doesn't die?
05:35:52 <shachaf> kmc: Hm, am I irritating lately?
05:38:55 <kmc> not very much
05:39:01 <kmc> I'm in a bad mood lately, which doesn't help
05:39:11 <Bike> oh hey and the guy who said the kidney thing is a science journalist. yay, slightly less dumb science journalism
05:39:25 <kmc> i'm hella stressing out about my job search
05:41:05 <shachaf> lambdabot: @tell zzo38 http://www.gophercon.com/
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06:07:24 <shachaf> Hmm, should I volunteer to run lambdabot?
06:07:36 <shachaf> Since my server seems to have more luck with it than the current one.
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06:10:18 <Bike> lambdabot should just run as a botnet
06:41:25 <shachaf> @vixen shift or rotate hth
06:41:25 <kappabot> Sex is the mysticism of materialism and the only possible religion in a materialistic society.
06:49:15 <shachaf> John Carmack @ID_AA_Carmack 6 May
06:49:15 <shachaf> @tom_forsyth I thought Haskell WAS full bore functional purity, as opposed to various multi-paradigmn languages.
06:50:47 <Bike> i wish my languages had more bore.
06:51:36 <kmc> i wish my languages had more boar (meat)
06:52:11 <Bike> i don't think i've ever heard of pig meat being referred to as boar before
06:52:17 <Bike> oh, yes i have, when it's a full one
06:52:46 <kmc> or is it for wild pigs?
06:52:56 <kmc> either way, probably tasty
06:54:02 <Bike> usually a boar is a wild pig, yeah
06:54:09 <Bike> (apparently they hang out in berlin???)
06:54:38 <shachaf> [[boar]] redirects to [[wild boar]]
06:59:48 <oklopol> your left kidney produces your right pee and your right kidney produces your left pee
07:01:22 <oklopol> if your kidneys become separated, err, i don't know enough about kidneys
07:01:35 <fizzie> The local zoo has a cafe/restaurant next to the "bear castle"; they sell: bacon burger (contains bacon), chicken burger (contains chicken), salmon burger (contains salmon), "bear burger" (???).
07:02:25 <fizzie> The menu just says "large hamburger patty" and "100% organic".
07:06:49 <pikhq_> Beer burger sounds awesome.
07:16:09 <Bike> @quote container
07:16:09 <kappabot> heatsink says: If monads are containers, the Cont monad is a klein bottle.
07:16:09 <lambdabot> kmc says: monads are like containers, as long as you forget everything you know about the meaning of the word "container" and take it to be a totally abstract word synonymous with "monad"
07:17:14 <fizzie> Monads are like containers, in that they're mostly filled with vomit.
07:17:54 <kmc> heatsink's quote is better
07:18:16 <Bike> yeah, but i wanted the quote for someone who doesn't know or care about Cont
07:18:40 * Bike handing out "perls of kmc wisdom" like it ain't no thang
07:19:06 <Bike> Q: are monads orientable
07:19:33 <kmc> > (>>=) == (<<=)
07:19:41 <kmc> > (>>=) == (=<<)
07:19:41 <kappabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0Occurs check...
07:19:43 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
07:19:57 <Bike> proved: monads have two sides
07:20:04 <kmc> like an onion
07:20:13 <Bike> wait, why does that involve an occurs check
07:20:18 <kappabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
07:20:19 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
07:20:30 <Bike> snazzy, kappa-boy
07:21:15 <Bike> hm, a and b aren't typed (kinded) like m is?
07:21:25 <kmc> it only writes the kind when it differs from *
07:21:27 <kappabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
07:21:29 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
07:21:36 <Bike> oh. that's confusing.
07:21:49 <Bike> i was imagining [a ->] or whatever for a sec.
07:22:08 <kmc> there is kind polymorphism in recent GHC
07:30:52 <fizzie> "Booccurs check", the spookier version.
07:31:18 <kmc> the skolems have escaped
07:32:29 <fizzie> Rock'em Skolem Robots.
07:33:03 <shachaf> I have one jaffa cake left.
07:35:46 <kmc> they go quickly don't they.
07:36:55 <Bike> shachaf why do things have to be other things instead of themselves? i like things in themselves. the noumenon is the goodmenon. help
07:37:15 <shachaf> Bike: tor is like an onion hth
07:38:32 <Bike> you're like an onion, because i cut you and then i can't stop crying.
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10:25:48 <fizzie> Heey, hey: it's the Eurovision Song Contest time of the year again. Almost sneaked by without noticing. (Tragic.)
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12:02:06 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nwelcome | sed "s/^//"' >bin/welcome
12:02:24 <FireFly> `run chmod a+x bin/welcome
12:02:35 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:11:19 <Jafet> `run echo bin/wel* | hd
12:11:31 <HackEgo> 00000000 62 69 6e 2f 77 65 6c 63 6f 6d 65 0a |bin/welcome.| \ 0000000c
12:11:37 <Jafet> `run echo bin/*wel* | hd
12:11:39 <HackEgo> 00000000 62 69 6e 2f 72 77 65 6c 63 6f 6d 65 20 62 69 6e |bin/rwelcome bin| \ 00000010 2f 77 65 6c 63 6f 6d 65 20 62 69 6e 2f 02 77 65 |/welcome bin/.we| \ 00000020 6c 63 6f 6d 65 0a |lcome.| \ 00000026
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12:27:33 <FireFly> `run echo bin/welcome | hd
12:27:34 <HackEgo> 00000000 62 69 6e 2f 02 77 65 6c 63 6f 6d 65 0a |bin/.welcome.| \ 0000000d
12:28:25 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 7 Oct 14 2011 /usr/bin/hd -> hexdump
12:29:05 <myname> you are looking for cat?
12:30:00 <FireFly> I just wanted to confirm my guess that hd was an alias for hexdump
12:30:44 <Deewiant> To find (a young) cat: http://robotfindskitten.org/
12:38:53 <Jafet> `run diff $(which hexdump) $(which hd)
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13:38:11 <boily> @tell Phantom_Hoover watch the new ST movie.
13:38:19 <Lumpio-> Is it even out on BitTorrent yet
13:38:34 <boily> uhm. may I ask who is kappabot, and where does it come from?
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13:39:14 * boily pokes kappabot with a calibrated, certified, regulated, chromium plated galvanized scientific metric rod
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13:42:02 <fizzie> boily: I think it's the fault of one of the kmchafs. (I always get those two mixed up.)
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13:47:43 <boily> fizzie: oh. so no problem with the prodding.
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13:48:05 * boily straps an electric motor to the rod
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15:16:25 <metasepia> CYUL 141500Z 26008KT 30SM FEW035 11/M05 A3008 RMK CU2 SLP187
15:16:32 <boily1> ah, my bot's still alive.
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15:30:26 <metasepia> EFHK 141520Z 24012KT CAVOK 17/02 Q1009 NOSIG
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15:38:00 <HackEgo> 927) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world \ 928) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it \ 937) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday. \ 940) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my
15:38:04 <metasepia> EBAW 141520Z 19006KT 9999 -RA FEW026 BKN032 10/08 Q1006 NOSIG
15:38:19 <boily> where was that hate quote I had again...
15:38:25 <boily> `pastequotes boily
15:38:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14717
15:39:54 <metasepia> EGNT 141520Z 22012KT 180V250 9999 FEW049 12/00 Q0996
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15:40:18 <Taneb> boily, thanks to you, I know two different codes for the nearest airport to Hexham?
15:40:41 <nooodl_> real talk: all i can read off these / care for is the temperature
15:40:48 <nooodl_> everything else just looks cool
15:41:51 <elliott> uh which one is the temperature
15:41:59 <boily> the one with the /.
15:42:04 <nooodl_> the 14th, 15:20, 220° 12 kt wind, blah blah blah, 12°C / 00°C
15:42:13 <boily> first number is temp, other is dew point.
15:42:30 <boily> M for minus, otherwise known as Canadian.
15:42:40 <elliott> what's the metar for hexham
15:43:14 <boily> EGNT, I think. that's newcastle, innit?
15:43:33 <Taneb> elliott, EGNT is closest
15:43:38 <Taneb> It's about 20 miles to the east
15:43:54 <metasepia> EGNC 121650Z 25013KT 9999 BKN018 11/09 Q1004
15:44:02 <metasepia> EGNT 141520Z 22012KT 180V250 9999 FEW049 12/00 Q0996
15:44:12 <Taneb> That's Carlisle airport, 40 miles or so to the west
15:44:22 <elliott> so is this what google gives results from when i ask "weather in x"
15:44:36 <boily> elliott: maybe hth
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16:33:14 <HackEgo> zanna: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:38:44 <Phantom__Hoover> i guess i should stick to annoying spanish speakers out loud
16:39:47 <zanna> molesto = tu padre
16:39:53 <zanna> lengua correcta = amor
16:40:52 <zanna> algun entendido en esoterismo que hable espaol?
16:40:59 <Phantom__Hoover> i might not know spanish but i know enough romance roots to be offended
16:42:37 <zanna> la educacion es igual en todas partes y tu no la tienes
16:45:07 <zanna> algun entendido en esoterismo que hable espaol?
16:48:56 <zanna> internet est hecho para comunicarse con todo el mundo, si tanto te molesta, olvdame. mono ignorante
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16:55:52 <zanna> algun entendido en esoterismo que hable espaol?
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17:15:43 <boily> zanna: puedo hablar un poquito de español, pero con su actitud, no creo que voy a hacer esfuerzos por hablar con su idioma.
17:36:02 <zanna> entonces es que no eres entendido en esoterismo boily, no es necesario, gracias
17:40:31 <boily> elliott: can I apply my foot on him with a dx/dt of great magnitude?
17:40:49 <boily> (or my bot's tentacles, if it is more socially acceptable)
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17:45:45 <boily> but, but... he left without my patented instant podial back massage...
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17:46:06 <boily> (cures sore joints, rheumatisms, and lycanthropy!)
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18:29:27 <Taneb> elliott, why did I think alcohol was a good idea
18:30:26 <shachaf> hey Taneb, what's your address
18:30:44 <shachaf> i'm postmaster general of hexham
18:30:48 <shachaf> i need to know these things
18:30:53 <Taneb> And I live at number 6
18:31:06 <shachaf> Are you the prince of Hexham?
18:31:26 <Taneb> You should know, you're postmaster general
18:32:22 <shachaf> How will I send you parcels (do you reall call them parcels.......) without knowing your address?
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18:33:22 <Taneb> Send them to 6 Hexham
18:33:26 <Taneb> That's where I live
18:34:02 <shachaf> 6 Hexham, Washington, Tyne and Wear NE38 0NR?
18:34:26 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_Tyne_and_Wear
18:34:47 <boily> shachaf: I stand corrected.
18:35:51 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
18:36:05 <Taneb> `learn Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
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18:39:41 <boily> `learn lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which lived around 250 million years ago.
18:39:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/%3F
18:41:27 <boily> `run ln -s wisdom/lystrosaur wisdom/lystrosaurus
18:41:28 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/lystrosaurus': File exists
18:41:33 <boily> `run ln -s wisdom/lystrosaurus wisdom/lystrosaur
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18:50:29 <nooodl_> `run echo 'perl -pe '\''s/nooodl/"n@{[o x(5+rand 3)]}dl"/ge'\' > bin/rnooodl
18:50:45 <nooodl_> `run echo nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl | rnooodl
18:50:47 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/rnooodl: Permission denied
18:51:21 <nooodl_> `run echo nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl nooodl | rnooodl
18:51:23 <HackEgo> nooooooodl nooooooodl noooooodl nooooodl nooooooodl noooooodl nooooooodl
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18:52:03 <nooodl_> `run echo 'perl -pe '\''s/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'\' > bin/rnooodl
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18:55:23 <Bike> http://conservapedia.com/Essay:_Overweight_atheists_comedy_and_satire
18:57:23 <fizzie> "Unlike atheists, Christians have a great many songs including dance music."
18:58:11 <elliott> Kim Il Sung was a communist dictator and an obese atheist who died of a heart attack.[1] Kimchi is one of the world's most healthiest foods and very popular among Koreans.[2] Unfortunately for Kim II Song, he ate too much of it.
18:58:46 <elliott> ohhh these are all written by that dead guy
18:59:29 <elliott> i guess the dead guy is a different one
18:59:39 <fizzie> "Richard Dawkins, who has been divorced two times, is thin but he is a very abrasive man who often makes women upset."
19:00:32 <shachaf> Taneb: why won't you tell me your mailing address for parcels
19:00:38 <Bike> http://questionevolution.blogspot.com/2013/05/not-only-do-creationists-win-creation.htm
19:00:42 <fizzie> Lots and lots of repetition here.
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19:01:57 <elliott> Bike: here's a free l to fix that link for you: l
19:02:22 <Taneb> shachaf, why don't you send the parcel to elliott
19:02:26 <elliott> In 2011, only two of the Miss USA beauty pageant contestants thought evolution should be taught in schools. Evidently, most beautiful women find the "Argument from beauty" argument for the existence of God to be quite an attractive argument. See: Argument from beauty
19:02:27 <Taneb> He lives at 9 Hexham
19:02:35 <shachaf> Taneb: i already sent a parcel to elliott
19:02:47 <Taneb> Can you send one to elliott then he can give it to me
19:02:57 <shachaf> elliott is kind of Hexham btw
19:03:17 <elliott> Taneb: would you like some Mekupelet btw
19:03:58 <shachaf> How will you get it to him?
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19:04:15 <Taneb> elliott, I'm not sure what that is
19:04:23 <elliott> dropping it off at a location in a case with a combination lock and then revealing that location and the lock to him
19:04:31 <elliott> Taneb: it's like cadbury flake but from israel
19:04:46 <shachaf> Taneb: It's significant better* than Cadbury Flake.
19:04:53 <Taneb> elliott, but I have a cadbury flake supplier!
19:05:01 <Taneb> He lives in Corbridge
19:05:06 <Taneb> And is called Easty
19:05:06 <shachaf> Taneb: Can you mail me some Cadbury Flake?
19:05:54 <fizzie> Cadbury, isn't that that Egg thing?
19:05:55 <Taneb> Because I only mail things to people in non-coastal US states.
19:06:00 <Bike> I think no one person is allowed to know both elliott's and Taneb's address for epistemological reasons.
19:06:04 <Taneb> California is worryingly coastal
19:06:22 <Taneb> fizzie, they are a pretty major chocolate company in Britain, now owned by Kraft
19:06:23 <elliott> fizzie: do you mean uh cadbury creme egg
19:06:47 <Bike> I had one of those for break fast.
19:07:13 <shachaf> Taneb: Don't worry, I'm thoroughly landlocked.
19:07:20 <fizzie> You can't make a fast without breaking a few creme eggs.
19:07:26 <Taneb> INSUFFICIENTLY FOR MY TASTES
19:07:32 <shachaf> Some of California is coastal. But did you know CA is bigger than .uk?
19:07:36 <elliott> Bike: is the current or older dairy milk shape better
19:07:47 <Bike> I don't know, it was crushed.
19:08:14 <Taneb> Frankly, I only mail things to the American Midwest
19:08:16 <Bike> shachaf: Taneb only mails things to non-coastal US states, that clearly excludes anywhere in the UK anyway.
19:08:25 -!- Zuu has joined.
19:08:39 <shachaf> Taneb: elliott can pay for postage.
19:08:42 <Taneb> Such as Ohio and Nebraska
19:08:51 <Taneb> shachaf, is California in Ohio?
19:09:13 <elliott> dodging the important questions i see Taneb
19:09:16 <Bike> several: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California,_Ohio
19:09:58 <Taneb> Is the Bay Area of California, though?
19:10:13 <Bike> Tch, moving the shachaffian goalposts
19:10:19 <shachaf> The Bay Area is in California, Ohio.
19:10:32 <Taneb> I only mail to state capitals
19:10:34 <fizzie> The UltraBay area of Laptop, California, Ohio.
19:10:43 <shachaf> Taneb: OK, mail it to Sacramento.
19:10:59 <Taneb> shachaf, Sacramento isn't in the midwest
19:11:09 <shachaf> It's in midwestern California.
19:11:20 <elliott> does Taneb have me on ignore
19:11:24 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_Nebraska
19:11:29 <fizzie> How come there's no eurovision bot on channel, incidentally?
19:11:33 <shachaf> Taneb: You're not being very coöperative.
19:11:51 <Taneb> I am not sure what elliott is asking
19:11:56 <Taneb> I think the old shape was better
19:12:06 <Taneb> I will not mail something to shachaf
19:12:09 <fizzie> elliott: I... I just assumed.
19:12:19 <shachaf> Taneb: Can you arrange for someone else to mail it to me?
19:12:27 <fizzie> fungot: Are you watching, could you do some botty things?
19:12:27 <fungot> fizzie: will keep the rofr for new years of the issue that she is not a complete statement or any cftc interpretive center, which is the only two years of option trading knowledge summed up that file accidentally forwarded your form.
19:12:31 <Taneb> I can, but I will not
19:13:12 <elliott> fizzie: is there a link to an online eurovision stream
19:13:30 <Taneb> elliott, because I have been drinking and now I have alcohol in my system
19:14:00 <boily> Taneb: have a nice poutine.
19:14:05 <elliott> don't make me come over there
19:14:15 <fizzie> elliott: eurovision.tv has one, I think. And probably your local broadcast company.
19:14:16 <Taneb> elliott, I am not afraid of you
19:14:18 <shachaf> Taneb: why have you been drinking
19:14:29 <shachaf> real drunks inject alcohol
19:14:41 <Taneb> shachaf, because I felt like finally drinking this bottle of beer I got for my birthday back in November
19:14:46 <fizzie> (The one at eurovision.tv is not country-limited.)
19:15:26 <shachaf> Taneb: Ha ha, silly .ukians with their low drinking age.
19:15:31 <boily> Taneb: or better yet, a delicious galvaude (poutine with meat and green peas).
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19:17:31 <shachaf> Taneb: Also, where in .uk should I move to?
19:17:48 <Taneb> It's a pretty city
19:18:31 <Taneb> If you want a job in the programming sector, London or if you're lucky Oxford or Cambridge or maybe Newcastle if you're okay working for Ubisoft
19:18:57 <elliott> ubisoft are in ncl???????????????????/
19:19:22 <Taneb> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubisoft_Reflections
19:19:39 <elliott> shachaf: how about go to strathclyde
19:19:54 <shachaf> um ubisoft is in san francisco
19:20:11 <shachaf> elliott: Are you allowed in Strathclyde without reading a certain paper?
19:20:24 <elliott> you also have to be vaccinated for crime
19:20:32 <elliott> anyone not immune to crime wouldn't last a night in glasgow
19:21:01 <HackEgo> 452) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 608) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 772) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:21:13 <Taneb> shachaf, it is not good enough
19:21:26 <Taneb> Parts of Glasgow have a life expectancy of 32
19:21:30 <shachaf> Is Glasgow actually that bad?
19:21:58 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/i5aubQD.jpg is ra el
19:22:07 <shachaf> In 2012 there were 2.7 homicides per 100,000 people in Glasgow. This compared to a 1.67 per 100,000 in London and a rate of 1.0 across the UK as a whole.
19:22:27 <shachaf> In the past, East Palo Alto experienced profound crime and poverty, especially during the 1980s and early 1990s. In 1992, it had the highest homicide rate in the country with 24,322 people, and 42 murders, equaling a rate of 172.7 homicides per 100,000 residents.[6]
19:22:48 -!- simpleirc1 has joined.
19:22:55 <shachaf> Since then the city's crime problems have subsided, and the murder rate in particular has declined to a typical urban level. In 2006, East Palo Alto experienced a comparatively low 6 murders. There were 7 murders in 2007, and only 5 in 2008. According to a 2008 report provided by Chief of Police Ron Davis, violence is on the decline. Davis reports an overall 42% reduction in homicides and a 20% reduction in overall crime between 2006–2008, ...
19:22:56 <Taneb> Glasgow's doing pretty nastily for a place where guns are illegal
19:23:01 <shachaf> ... compared to the previous three years.
19:23:06 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars
19:23:30 <Bike> `welcome simpleirc1
19:23:33 <HackEgo> simpleirc1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:25:04 <Taneb> I wonder if irc.dal.net knows about us
19:25:22 <simpleirc1> Please could you listen to some thought on a language?
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19:26:16 <simpleirc1> the pointer can be moved brainf*ck style
19:27:07 <Taneb> What does it mean to take or swap?
19:27:32 <simpleirc1> you first TAKE a value, then move the pointer, then you swap it with the pointers
19:28:05 <Taneb> So, it kind of stores the address, and when you swap it swaps the value at that address with the one at the current address?
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19:29:06 <AnotherTest> first, my simulation was O(n). Then, my simulation became O(n^2). Now, my simulation has become O(n^3).
19:30:15 <Bike> AnotherTest: just say it's polynomial and be done
19:35:17 <Bike> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/HQEoZMI.jpg china's crazy hth.
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19:37:53 <AnotherTest> Bike: well it does make a difference for n = 1e9
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19:40:04 <Bike> "sure let me get some paper to write it out on"
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19:52:26 <Bike> how can you assign a probability to that
19:53:15 <AnotherTest> well not knowing what to proof does make things more complicated
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20:24:23 <boily> I like crawl's source. «The Thing That Should Not Be(tm)».
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20:29:00 <elliott> boily: the older versions are much worse
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20:33:45 <boily> elliott: I think I stumbled upon some complaints about the nightmare-inducing code quality of the olden versions.
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20:57:14 <shachaf> copumpkin: Are you around -blah by any chance?
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21:04:08 <shachaf> hellogan international airport
21:07:35 <kmc> KMCDAFIFKing Khaled Military City, SA
21:08:09 <tswett> All right, someone come up with a function that has a local maximum at every rational number.
21:08:26 <tswett> A continuous one, that is. Heck, an analytic one.
21:08:26 -!- Bike has joined.
21:09:04 <boily> tswett: you wimp. non-analytic functions mean that you're a grown, virile man!
21:09:10 * boily flexes his non-existent muscles
21:09:20 <tswett> boily: they're also really easy to come up with.
21:09:33 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:09:44 <tswett> Let s be some smooth function that vanishes outside of (0,1) such that s(1/2) = 1.
21:10:00 <tswett> Add a bunch of ss together and boom, there's your function.
21:10:01 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:10:41 <boily> tswett: also, an FM radio signal is non-analytic in a very infuriating way.
21:11:55 <olsner> hmm, I want beer but I have no clean glasses ... is it ok if I use a tea mug, or would that seem desperate?
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21:12:12 <boily> olsner: drink from the bottle/can?
21:13:12 <olsner> I think there's some kind of rule that you "can't" drink weissbier from the bottle
21:15:24 <boily> oh. hm. well, don't you have any plasticwares? bowls? aquariums? tubs? vats? ladles? vases?
21:24:38 <nooodl_> if you "can't" drink a certain beer from the bottle i think that implicitly also means drinking it from a tea mug isn't "allowed" either
21:31:37 <boily> or, there's always the logical but unappealing solution: clean one of your glasses.
21:32:14 <olsner> that's just ridiculous
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21:32:56 <olsner> what I will do is crash early
21:33:52 <pikhq_> I've drank (American rendition of) weissbier out of a bottle.
21:33:58 <pikhq_> I just don't give a fuck. :P
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21:34:24 <olsner> oh, great, it's going to be -1 degrees tomorrow morning
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21:43:45 <shachaf> kmc: the other day i found out that i live near a combination pizza hut and taco bell
21:43:53 <shachaf> i didn't know things like that actually existed
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21:46:43 <Bike> 14:33 < pikhq_> I've drank (American rendition of) weissbier out of a bottle.
21:46:53 <Bike> http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o33/Nedraed/Nukesites_zps5f983fae.png "Scotland: Who Cares"
21:47:39 <boily> stupid lying comments. in a function with a different name in a different file, that has different logic and arithmetic.
21:48:09 <boily> elliott: crawl's code still has a looooooong way to go to attain something vaguely sane.
21:50:31 <kmc> shachaf: nice
21:50:35 <kmc> shachaf: i've been to the one from the song
21:50:43 <kmc> i tried to meet lexande there but his bus was late
21:51:36 <shachaf> I've never been to Taco Bell.
21:51:49 <shachaf> I don't think I've been to Pizza Hut in the US. Possibly in .il.
21:51:53 <kmc> shachaf: they also have combination Taco Bell / KFC, combination KFC / Pizza Hut, and combination Pizza Hut / Taco Bell / KFC
21:52:28 <olsner> hmm, I almost went to a taco bell once, but went to something on the other side of the street that I don't remember what it was
21:52:40 <shachaf> I remember being confused about whether it was "pizza hot" (because it was hot pizza) or "pizza hat" (because the logo looks like a hat).
21:52:43 <shachaf> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Pizza_Hut_logo.svg/200px-Pizza_Hut_logo.svg.png
21:52:50 <elliott> boily: what are you even doing
21:53:13 <shachaf> I probably wasn't aware of the word "hot" at the time.
21:53:28 <boily> elliott: I finally found the actual function that computes the actual real experience you get from killing yourself a monster.
21:53:58 <olsner> hut sounds like swedish for hat, so for me it's obviously pizza hat
21:54:57 <boily> elliott: stepups, stepsides, and steps that would fit in the abyss.
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22:03:49 <fizzie> Once I almost went to a Quiznos, which I understand is somewhat like Subway, but they were closed.
22:03:58 -!- Bike has joined.
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22:04:58 <shachaf> Once I went to the subway and then went out an hour later on the other side of the city.
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22:09:57 <kmc> i like quiznos
22:10:09 <kmc> their sandwiches are a bit more interesting than subway's
22:10:18 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/6f5a88dd19217ca981c5ab44047f5ec1/tumblr_mmt0ebXJYk1qz9aeqo1_500.png
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22:12:43 <elliott> 749 buzzfeed lists that will make you feel old
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22:33:09 <kmc> i liked the jokes that people were making after buzzfeed ran some koch brothers ad
22:33:22 <kmc> 17 Cats That Hate Obamacare
22:33:37 <kmc> 25 Arrested Development GIFs That Prove Poor People Are Lazy And Stupid
22:34:07 <shachaf> BuzzFeed has the hottest, most social content on the web. We feature breaking buzz and the kinds of things you'd want to pass along to your friends.
22:34:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: what was up with that dude btw
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22:35:36 <Phantom__Hoover> would probably take it out on those more fortunate than myself
22:43:53 <Bike> kmc: someone i was handing out food to at the food bank today said that kids had to work for meals when she was young. mildly surreal
22:44:02 <kmc> at the food bank?
22:45:07 <Bike> it's a thing where you can get free food and stuff if you're bad off.
22:48:02 <kmc> i mean, did kids have to work at the food bank
22:48:04 <kmc> or do you just mean in general
22:48:52 <Bike> no i mean, i was at the food bank, handing food out to a woman, and she said that back in her day, kids had to work for their meals. she lived on a farm so i assume she had that in mind
22:49:47 <Bike> better than the woman who broke down crying because the utilities people cut her water, though
22:50:33 <Bike> I got the supervisor out and I think she arranged for an emergency temporary return of services, so that was a... mildly happy ending
22:50:36 <kmc> http://programmingisterrible.com/post/50421878989/come-here-and-work-on-hard-problems-except-the-ones
22:50:39 <kmc> that's good
22:52:00 <Bike> i have a vague idea that there could be a place for programming people in designing logistics plans for food banks
22:52:05 <elliott> "In California, there isn’t a conflict between being a Capitalist, and a Liberal" i like the implication that liberalism has ever anywhere been anti-capitalist
22:52:08 <Bike> or if not that, making sure the printer works consistently
22:52:21 <Bike> ("uh bike that's engineering not CS")
22:52:48 <elliott> wow equating CS and "programming people" now!!
22:53:04 <kmc> remember that "liberal" means something totally wacky in the US
22:53:09 <Bike> kmc: reminds me of a de long post where he basically said the whole large corporation thing we've got going now is central planning that works
22:53:24 <elliott> kmc: it means something even more capitalist in the US!
22:53:27 <Bike> so now i can't stop thinking of the US as bizarro-socialist (help)
22:53:33 <kmc> Bike: interesting, although many large companies aren't so centrally planned internally
22:54:06 <Bike> it was also written in 1997 and included the line "it seems unlikely that Apple will survive its current crisis"
22:54:13 <kmc> well, it was unlikely
22:54:32 <kmc> a lot of companies fuck up the central planning and go bankrupt or through some other crisis
22:54:34 <Bike> i have no idea what crisis was referred to, being too young, but it's amusing nonetheless
22:54:39 <kmc> it'd be bad if that happened to soverign states on a regular basis
22:54:45 <elliott> Bike: the crisis was "not having steve jobs"
22:55:43 <Bike> that's quite a crisis.
22:56:12 <Bike> kmc: i'll find the post again, but the idea was equating corporations to enterprises rather than countries, so like, the kamchatka iron factory board, not the soviet union.
22:56:16 <elliott> the solution was "make the iMac"
22:56:32 <Bike> http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2013/05/brad-delong-1997-the-corporation-as-a-command-economy.html
22:57:33 <elliott> Bike: the difference is that the US has freedom, obviously
22:58:08 <Bike> de long isn't a moron, thankfully
22:58:56 <Bike> but you're not american
22:59:01 <Bike> you have to talk about thatcher or something instead
22:59:16 <elliott> man nobody wants to talk about thatcher
23:00:03 <Bike> british conservatives don't blather on about her? (like americans do with teh reagan)
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23:02:33 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, the british working class are more receptive to being fucked over than the american one, i guess
23:02:54 <Bike> that's... impressive
23:03:15 <elliott> because you were stating the impossible
23:05:32 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
23:05:42 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rajahs alright, it's official, britain isn't possible.
23:18:44 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/tzLvybH.jpg
23:28:42 <Phantom__Hoover> explosions just replace a big circle of land with a crater right
23:29:12 <kmc> that's how it works in Worms
23:29:22 <elliott> in worms things bounce too
23:29:35 <Phantom__Hoover> (what's The Point here, is it 'we should just nuke the middle east and get it over and done with'
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00:24:39 <Sgeo> Maybe... this is a bad idea
00:24:50 <Sgeo> [the idea I came up with and am now implementing]
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00:30:21 <kmc> T SGEO SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT IDEA (WAS RE: COCKS)
00:32:25 <Bike> why does comic chat do the t thing anyway
00:32:34 <Bike> instead of just "Sgeo:" like a real client
00:32:58 <Sgeo> I didn't know Comic Chat did a T thing
00:33:29 <Bike> well if it's just jerkcity adding it
00:33:32 <Bike> that would begood too
00:38:52 <kmc> i don't think that's a Comic Chat thing
00:39:31 <kmc> "The syntax comes from an archaic chat system running on APL machines; the T syntax was short for TELL. The use is perpetuated to this day as an inside joke."
00:39:38 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/glossary.html
00:41:32 <Phantom__Hoover> so apparently the ptolemaic model didn't actually have earth at the centre
00:42:13 <Sgeo> I think I'm invisible
00:42:22 <Sgeo> No one in another channel is saying anything to me
00:46:08 <Sgeo> Pretty sure Dojo did what I want to do back in 2006
00:46:14 <Sgeo> Reusing that code though would be dumb
00:47:09 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: what are you talking about
00:53:07 <kmc> comic chat segfaults when i try to connect to freenobe
00:53:43 <Sgeo> I mean, I already wrote the code in question, or at least theoretically enough for Angular's purposes, but need to figure out how to hook it into Angular
00:59:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: Well, it seems to be fine now.
01:00:44 <Sgeo> Can talking about Javascript code ever really count as proprietary?
01:01:29 <shachaf> Some trolling and some, uh, other things?
01:01:48 <shachaf> Sgeo: Sure. Talking about anything can count as proprietary.
01:01:52 <shachaf> Especially if no one hears you talk.
01:02:24 <shachaf> Bike: should i see _The Rocky Horror Picture Show_ hth
01:02:51 <shachaf> i don't know anything about it except it's famous??
01:03:10 <Bike> http://www.earthnotaglobe.com/library/Flat_Earth_Society_Map.jpg
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01:04:17 <shachaf> This map not be reproduced., Bike.
01:07:56 <Lumpio-> Religious people trying to talk about science like geography (ﾉ´∀｀*)
01:10:15 <kmc> Sgeo: what's special about javascript
01:10:39 <Sgeo> The client usually receives it. Wasn't thinking about node.js
01:11:18 <Sgeo> So anyone could go ahead and take a peek at my code anyway
01:11:19 <Lumpio-> Being sent some code doesn't mean it's not proprietary either.
01:12:00 <Sgeo> No, but it does mean that the code shouldn't really be all 'secrecy of this code is necessary for the security of something or other[
01:12:09 <shachaf> Why is that different from any other situation where you give someone a program?
01:14:27 <Lumpio-> Because obfuscated JavaScript is moderately easier to read than machine code I guess
01:14:43 <shachaf> When you compile Haskell to it?
01:15:00 <shachaf> Or do you consider that not to be JavaScript, I guess?
01:15:23 <shachaf> Anyway JavaScript isn't really very different from other languages.
01:22:09 <Sgeo> shachaf, well, there are a number of programs that are useful to a lot of people that are not given out
01:22:14 <Sgeo> e.g. the backend code to Google Search
01:22:40 <shachaf> I don't think "proprietary" is a word that means anything unless you define it.
01:23:23 <Sgeo> Well, as in, 'am I allowed to talk about it'
01:23:40 <Bike> fight the power, sgeo.
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01:24:02 <shachaf> Should I go to https://sumo.stanford.edu/speakers/2013/may14.pdf ?
01:24:31 <shachaf> imo you say that about everything
01:25:24 <Sgeo> "but shall not include information known prior to Contract Employee's employment with Apex, or readily ascertainable by a person of ordinary skill in the assigned area of technical expertise."
01:28:47 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, so what if, like, you had some field where the 'ordinary skill' was only obtainable by working for a particular company
01:29:42 <Bike> that is vague as hell, imo fuck it
01:30:48 <kmc> obfuscated javascript isn't that much easier to read than, say, JVM or .NET bytecode
01:30:53 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, wouldn't 'ordinary skill' be near 0, for skills that only exist within the company? Although I guess ordinary skill in the general populace of any technical subject is little
01:31:20 <shachaf> regular jvm bytecode is p. easy to read hth
01:31:26 <kmc> also just because you physically give someone source code (even fully commented, unobfuscated source code) doesn't mean you're giving them any legal rights to do stuff with that code
01:31:55 <kmc> for example when Microsoft shares Windows source code with their business partners, it's obviously still "proprietary" and those partners can't pass it on to random third parties
01:31:58 <Sgeo> I didn't want to give legal rights away, I just wanted to talk about it
01:33:33 <kmc> "person of ordinary skill" is a term of art in patent law isn't it
01:34:40 <Bike> is that like "a moron in a hurry"
01:35:40 <pikhq_> Bike: Nah, more like "utterly normal professional"
01:35:41 <Sgeo> eep, I've think I've coded like that before
01:36:13 <pikhq_> Sadly, the patent office tends to be incapable of judging what's actually known by people in the field...
01:36:21 <Sgeo> Oh, the phrase is not about professionals
01:36:42 <pikhq_> Did you know that putting an *algorithm* on a *computer* is novel?
01:37:06 <pikhq_> "I mean really, I thought you were just supposed to bash the things together. You can compute with 'em!"
01:38:12 <Bike> pikhq_: no i mean, "moron in a hurry" is a term of art in trademark law
01:38:27 <Bike> one of my favorite
01:38:42 <Bike> canada switched to "ordinary hurried purchaser" because fuck them
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01:40:01 <kmc> is "moron in a hurry" a term of art
01:40:19 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_moron_in_a_hurry would i lie to you
01:40:29 <Phantom__Hoover> i wish people would stop using 'ad hominem' as a synonym for 'insult'
01:40:56 <Bike> i wish people would stop acting like latin terms for formal fallacies are very relevent in rhetoric
01:41:01 <kmc> i wish people would stop using 'hypocrite' as a synonym for 'trying and failing to live up to your own expectations'
01:41:12 <pikhq_> Yeah, isn't the whole thing with "ad hominem" that it's "insult therefore you're wrong"?
01:41:28 <Bike> formally it's "you suck, therefore your argument sucks"
01:41:35 <Bike> but it's indeed often used as "stop telling me i suck"
01:42:02 <pikhq_> Of course, the converse can hold. There are many cases when one can say "your argument sucks therefore you suck". :P
01:42:38 <shachaf> in soviet russia, a conversation holds you
01:42:59 <Phantom__Hoover> <Bike> but it's indeed often used as "stop telling me i suck"
01:43:15 <Phantom__Hoover> it's also often used as 'you told me i suck so you're wrong'
01:43:33 <Bike> imo that sucks
01:43:40 <Bike> and people who use it probably suck
01:45:30 <shachaf> http://shrughes.com/p/forzans-razor/ hth
01:45:40 <shachaf> brought to you by an esolang person
01:49:57 <elliott> that blog post is obnoxious
01:57:55 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/bd2be7695de64e8f79ba896fd0d25994/tumblr_mmtgicFHWa1rtih03o2_500.png
01:58:54 <kmc> i'm glad i know how to use Inspect Element to fix awful bgcolor
01:59:01 <kmc> though in this case it probably was not worth the effort
01:59:22 <kmc> "Category: Boring, Serious" welp
02:00:27 <elliott> elliott's razor: if you have to use inspect element to make a site readable then you don't actually care what it has to say in the first place
02:00:45 <elliott> unless it is the onion's stupid fucking paywall thing
02:01:35 <shachaf> do we all get razors now.......
02:02:05 <Bike> bike's razor: bad at shaving
02:02:09 <kmc> quora used to be hackable this way but now they do the stupid blurring server side
02:02:43 <elliott> thankfully you also don't care what quora has to say
02:03:03 <shachaf> kmc: add ?share=1 to the url hth
02:03:12 <kmc> elliott: how else will i learn about startup culture and all the cool things to do in Palo Alto, CA
02:03:30 <kmc> shachaf understands
02:03:35 <Bike> "startup culture" isn't real right
02:04:08 <shachaf> not real as in it doesn't exist or as in it's not culture
02:05:18 <elliott> kmc: there's nothing cool to do in palo alto
02:05:20 <kmc> it's subject to poe's law
02:05:38 <kmc> that's all i can say for sure
02:05:59 <shachaf> kmc: am i "startup cultured"
02:06:40 <Phantom__Hoover> the us had a programme in the 60s where they fired a few hundred million metal needles into orbit
02:06:48 <Bike> oh that was an awesome program
02:06:54 <Bike> i mean except for everything that went wrongn.
02:07:07 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford ?
02:07:15 <Bike> And I guess my real question is actually: "There aren't a non-negligible number of people who actually do this startup stuff, right"
02:07:43 <kmc> there are a lot of people working at startups, if that's what you mean
02:07:52 <elliott> Bike: have you seen hacker news
02:08:00 <Bike> not in a while thankfully
02:08:05 <Bike> also i can believe that it's just like twenty people
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02:08:37 <shachaf> it's actually just paul graham and kmc
02:09:00 <Bike> the eternal struggle
02:09:05 <kmc> don't drag me into this
02:10:25 <elliott> it's paul graham and paul graham
02:10:47 <elliott> kmc: are you going to work at mozillasanto
02:11:02 <elliott> imo monsanto and that security corp = the same
02:11:25 <shachaf> i know someone in sf who did some work for monsanto
02:11:34 <Bike> I like that they named themselves like, Academio now
02:11:44 <shachaf> i don't think it was security "but you never know"
02:12:18 <Bike> one can only assume they were thinking of xenophon
02:14:26 <elliott> shachaf: aren't they literally 100% evil tho
02:14:58 <lambdabot> Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people.
02:16:17 <Sgeo> The Onion has a paywall thing?
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02:23:23 <kmc> elliott: re mozillasanto: maybe
02:23:56 <elliott> kmc: if you work on the browser can you make it not fucking suck like every other browser does, thanks
02:24:08 <kmc> elliott: good advice
02:24:34 <Sgeo> Do non-IE browsers do any content-sniffing?
02:27:34 <elliott> kmc: also, i forget what rust did lately but it did something bad that involved gross runtime checks, imo get that undone
02:27:53 <elliott> thanks kmc you're the best
02:30:01 <elliott> there might be one or two things better than kmc I don't have 100% certainty in this rea
02:30:18 <elliott> sorry kmc i'll have to get back to you on this one
02:30:20 <Bike> why not ask a trusted venerable source, such as kimc
02:31:20 <elliott> kimc is both kmc and dictator of north korea
02:32:18 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/Y9CUhUo.jpg reign of kimc
02:33:22 <elliott> kmc: more seriously btw good luck and stuff
02:40:20 <Sgeo> Oh hey kmc got a new job?
02:40:33 <Sgeo> Or is otherwise doing something interesting?
02:51:38 <kmc> Bike: what
02:51:49 <kmc> Sgeo: no but i left the old job and i'm looking for a new one, in san francisco
02:52:54 <Sgeo> So what's this about congratulations? Unless you were still at the old job until now?
02:53:13 <Bike> nobody said congratulations
02:55:29 <kmc> 00:45 < Bike> congratulations, you're god's chosen stoner
02:55:48 <kmc> fungot: what is Sgeo talking about
02:55:49 <fungot> kmc: at the first and will find the attached. as us inventory levels are again at critically on the weather gtc's that may not know.
02:56:14 <Sgeo> I may have misunderstood 'good luck' as being congratulations. Esp. with the Mozilla references.
02:56:52 <elliott> kmc: i did exactly the same lastlog
02:57:03 <kmc> elliott: well i did it with grep so it was faster
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02:57:37 <elliott> this is why you get all the mozilla jobs and i don't
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02:57:46 <elliott> btw is grep actually faster than /lastlog congrat
02:57:51 <elliott> because /lastlog congrat takes approx. 0 seconds
02:58:26 <Bike> the grep actually finished before kmc entered the command.
02:58:50 <Bike> mosh's prediction feature
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02:59:38 <Sgeo> And that train of thought leads me to wondering if deletion is idempotent
02:59:56 <Sgeo> It should be iiuc idempotency, but it's a bad idea to make a GET request perform deletion
03:00:01 <elliott> once mosh predicted how i'd react to something before i even read it and typed the reply for me
03:00:40 <kmc> Sgeo: that's why there's a distinction between "safe" and "idempotent"
03:00:40 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext_Transfer_Protocol#Safe_methods
03:00:51 <Bike> i thought http had a DELETE method anyway.
03:01:05 <kmc> it's idempotent but not safe
03:04:16 * Sgeo decides that it would be good to have a mostly RESTful web server that can if necessary have continuation-based portions
03:04:39 <Sgeo> Web servers for game stuff for example
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03:10:20 <elliott> i should probably sleep or something
03:10:32 <Bike> before you ask: yes, fuck you
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03:11:25 <elliott> it's only 4 am Bike. i just feel shitty!
03:13:50 <elliott> it's not even light outside yet!
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03:21:54 <Sgeo> Do IE10 and IE11 still do content-sniffing?
03:27:17 <elliott> actually being tired is super annoying
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03:34:15 <elliott> look you're scaring the newbies away
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03:46:57 <elliott> Bike: guess who isn't asleep
03:47:56 <Bike> You you shit head
03:48:18 <kmc> `pastelogs shit.?head
03:49:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32440
03:49:09 <elliott> imo you're not asleep either
03:49:12 <elliott> and neither is kmc. or HackEgo
03:49:24 <Bike> <ehird> P.S. IAmA shithead <-- see.
03:49:44 <elliott> imo don't give me flashbacks by quoting things i said as ehird
03:49:50 <elliott> painful memories of being awful
03:50:14 <Bike> `pastelogs ehird
03:50:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23943
03:50:34 <Bike> goddamn elliott you're like 90% of the "shithead"edness
03:50:49 <Bike> "i honestly think my language may be worse than malbolge" good start
03:50:58 <elliott> predicting you're like 90% of the bike
03:51:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27154
03:51:11 <Bike> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=how+do+i+use+eclipse+and+workspaces+and+what+is+it+and+also+should+i+have+just+one+per+like+bukkit+plugin+i+am+writing+or+multiple+in+one+or%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F%3F+FUCK+YOU+SHIT+HEAD+HELP+ME
03:51:29 <elliott> did you know eclipse is awful
03:51:40 <elliott> anyway stop reading old logs of me thanks
03:52:02 <Bike> Hm I seem to be taking over your shitheading
03:52:03 <Sgeo> I use Eclipse at work
03:52:07 <Sgeo> Although I don't have to
03:52:20 <kmc> i hear it's p. cool
03:52:43 <Bike> hey i just got an idea to make elliott sleep
03:52:44 <kmc> eclipse has some cool stuff, they have a DSL for implementing your own JVM-based language that gives you Eclipse support for free
03:52:49 <Bike> To be honest, a lot of people holding the "asperger's" badge do it because they "dont fit in lol" and are self-diagnosed
03:52:54 <Bike> i'm aware, having being diagnosed myself years ago :)
03:53:02 <elliott> i wasn't kidding when i asked you to fucking stop
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03:53:20 <Bike> I wasn't kidding when I told you to sleep!
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03:53:59 <kmc> Sgeo: you're writing Java aren't you? when in rome
03:54:28 <Sgeo> I think my boss uses NetBeans, as do some others there
03:54:48 <Sgeo> (Well, used NetBeans when he was writing code, which he doesn't really do anymore)
03:55:11 <Bike> it's weird to see #esoteric talk about esoteric languages
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04:06:00 <Sgeo> Why does Chrome not have "Check for server certificate revocation" checked?
04:06:23 <Bike> It doesn't? I never touch any of my settings and I still get "lol bad cert" all the time
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04:09:41 <Sgeo> http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/02/google-strips-chrome-of-ssl-revocation-checking/
04:12:00 <Sgeo> http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=317837
04:18:33 <shachaf> Hmm, there's a big ".99¢" sign here.
04:23:05 <Sgeo> Is there a circumstance in which if you trust the sign, and the sign is wrong, you could actually lose money rather than abort the transaction?
04:47:03 <Bike> "I took philosophy in graduate school. It was easy. Computer science/physics has solved all philosophical problems."
04:48:30 <kmc> hackernews.txt?
04:48:43 <Bike> A psychologist, apparently! (a silly one)
04:49:13 <kmc> psychologistnews
04:49:29 <Bike> ecological theory of perception more like dumbological theory of perception
04:51:16 <kmc> welp, i don't know what that is, so
04:52:23 <Bike> the philosophy thing was in response to "we have theoretical and philosophical reasons for that, but that's orthogonal to the issue at hand, let's talk about thermodynamics", don't you love ignored synonyms
04:54:17 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a4969c21745552ebfd02b8489bb63ed8/tumblr_mj1lwfAsTZ1s4efhno1_500.jpg
04:54:21 <shachaf> kmc: You should join #haskell-lens, which is really #edwardk.
04:54:24 <shachaf> Not that he's around much lately.
04:55:01 <Bike> "all the fun of #edwardk without an actual edwardk"
04:57:44 <Sgeo> caused #edwardk to exist
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08:35:47 <c0bra_> hi: anyone happen to know a language like this: "..... ..... ..... .!?!! .?... ..... ....." (continued)
08:43:10 <lifthrasiir> c0bra_: does it have a vertical structure?
08:44:34 <c0bra_> 12 packets of five characters each
08:45:17 <lifthrasiir> I think I've seen such language as well, but not sure what name is it
08:46:12 <c0bra_> is there something like a search engine for them? ;)
08:47:19 <fizzie> New esolang wiki module/plugin/extension/whatnot idea? (Not at the moment.)
08:47:59 <fizzie> Sometimes perusing the categories helps.
08:48:20 <lifthrasiir> c0bra_: is it the LNUSP? http://esolangs.org/wiki/LNUSP
08:49:46 <c0bra_> lifthrasiir: no, doesnt look like this. the characters do not match
08:51:03 <c0bra_> hmm ... but thanks for help. any further suggestions are welcome :)
08:53:58 <c0bra_> fizzie: i'm on this...
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09:13:19 <c0bra_> -----> http://www.splitbrain.org/_static/ook/
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09:16:35 <fizzie> I did actually think of Ook!, I just didn't know there was a "short form". (It seems somewhat unofficial.)
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09:20:12 <lifthrasiir> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/ may be helpful
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10:42:30 <Jafet1> “The U.S. Congress has declared that the general welfare and security of the United States require that the unique competence of NASA be directed to detecting, tracking, cataloguing, and characterizing near-Earth asteroids and comets in order to provide warning and mitigation of the potential hazard of such near-Earth objects to the Earth.”
10:45:14 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
11:05:54 <fizzie> Did you know that: #esoteric is a dead channel. (No reply in over eight minutes!)
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11:25:02 <c0bra_> i thought also of ook, but was puzzled by these groups of five characters
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14:28:08 <Taneb> Doorbell went so I pretty much flew down three flights of stairs.
14:28:16 <Taneb> Got asked "Is the homeowner in?"
14:28:33 <Taneb> And had to clamber back up all these stairs
14:32:29 <oerjan> time to install a communication system
14:32:29 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:32:34 <kappabot> You don't have any new messages.
14:32:34 <lambdabot> kmc said 1d 18h 9m 13s ago: oh, there are some cubes with an image on each face, or a logo on every square, and in that case the centers can end up wrong if you solve it the normal way
14:33:44 <kappabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg kappabot @messages' to read it.
14:33:44 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:34:07 <Taneb> I don't know, do I look like an architect to you?
14:34:47 <oerjan> kmc: but do they have 4 simultaneous 24-hour days in a single rotation?
14:35:09 <oerjan> lambdabot: @ask kmc but do they have 4 simultaneous 24-hour days in a single rotation?
14:39:07 <Jafet> Do not be misled by the evil lies of academia, especially about the whitewashed "Professor Cube".
14:39:37 <Jafet> Don't listen to macademia either, they're just nutty.
14:39:58 <Jafet> Macademic research
14:41:35 * boily describes a nice parabolic motion with an air launched sea creature of non-trivial mass aimed at Jafet's head
14:42:20 <boily> Jafet: that was almondst funny.
14:42:37 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: one plankton.
14:50:23 <oerjan> @ask tswett <tswett> Add a bunch of ss together and boom, there's your function. <-- if you make s something analytic approaching 0 at infinity, and sum ss centered and rescaled on each rational with fast decreasing coefficients, can you get something analytic that works?
14:50:56 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 32s ago: <tswett> Add a bunch of ss together and boom, there's your function. <-- if you make s something analytic approaching 0 at infinity, and sum ss centered and rescaled on each
14:50:56 <kappabot> tswett: You have 1 new message. '/msg kappabot @messages' to read it.
14:50:56 <lambdabot> rational with fast decreasing coefficients, can you get something analytic that works?
14:52:00 <tswett> oerjan: uh, what was the question, again.
14:52:29 <tswett> Whether or not there's a function, analytic everywhere, that has a local maximum at every rational number?
14:52:31 <oerjan> an analytic function with a local maximum at each rational
14:53:10 <tswett> Yeah. So we're wanting s to be something like 1/(x^2+1).
14:53:16 <tswett> Which isn't analytic on the entire complex plane, but who cares.
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14:54:39 <tswett> Or... is the sinc function analytic at 0?
14:55:20 <oerjan> anything better would be a bounded entire function, which means a constant iirc
14:55:38 <oerjan> so entire complex plane is out.
14:55:52 <oerjan> well, for the s's individually.
14:55:53 <tswett> Of course, there are lots of entire functions that are bounded on the real line.
14:56:43 <oerjan> local maximum of analytic functions doesn't make much sense outside the real line either, anyway
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14:58:30 <tswett> So yeah. That seems like it would work.
14:58:56 <tswett> Add -x to the whole thing so that you don't really have to worry about, y'know, stuff.
14:59:35 <tswett> Then each little hill thing is pretty much an infinitely long vector, where one of the components is big and all the others are small.
15:00:51 <tswett> Hmm. You want the others to be *really* small. Like, exponentially small. That'll ensure that your sum of all the little hills converges.
15:01:09 <tswett> I guess pretty much anything smaller than harmonically small will work.
15:01:57 <tswett> So 1/(x^2+1) is small enough. I doubt you'd really need any scaling.
15:02:37 <tswett> Then you just have to prove that you can set all the amplitudes such that the local maxima end up in the right place.
15:02:54 <tswett> You could probably do that through some naive iterating process, and it seems like that would converge.
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17:16:55 <boily> FreeFull: haskell has it all. it is its own co.
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17:57:19 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i didn't know that guy before.
18:02:46 <Koen_> yeah I think it's just another guy
18:04:49 <boily> he's not known, he's not before, I'm pretty sure we can surmise he's not a guy, nor a the.
18:06:06 <fizzie> I remember a math lecturer mentioning something called "the topologist's sine", but not what it was, except that it was very squiggly (technical term) at zero.
18:07:02 <oerjan> boily: i'm not sure, he _could_ be a holy roman emperor in disguise
18:10:22 <oerjan> fizzie: { (x,sin(1/x)) | 0 < x <= 1 } union ({0} x [-1,1]) is a space i've seen (it's a simple example of a compact metric space that is connected but not path-connected or locally connected)
18:11:17 <oerjan> although i guess that's not a function.
18:11:53 <fizzie> oerjan: That's apparently the extended (blu-ray?) edition, whereas the plain version just has (0,0) in it. In addition to the sine, I mean.
18:12:15 <fizzie> (But it was the same topic.)
18:13:13 <oerjan> x*sin(1/x) is another function that might fit, it's continuous but not differentiable at 0, or is that differentiable but without a continuous derivative...
18:13:36 <oerjan> just add more x's to get more derivatives.
18:14:09 <fizzie> According to Wikipedia, anyway; according to Mathworld, it's sin 1/x for x > 0, and (x,0) for x <= 0. I suppose it depends on the topologist.
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18:16:18 <oerjan> also according to wikipedia, what i said first is the _closed_ topologist's sine curve.
18:18:00 <fizzie> Sorry, right. The extended edition was something sillier.
18:18:18 <fizzie> The closeted topologist's sine.
18:19:55 <oerjan> i assume it's a very sineful object
18:20:51 <oerjan> do i want to know who furgleberg is
18:21:03 <Gregor> fizzie: The closeted topologists's sin.
18:21:13 <oerjan> fugleberg means "bird cliff" in norwegian fwiw
18:21:29 <Gregor> oerjan: lol, surely not for real? Or at least not spelled that way?
18:21:34 <Gregor> Oh, you removed the 'r'
18:22:20 <oerjan> also there are apparently people named that.
18:22:20 <Gregor> (Anyway, it doesn't mean anything, I was just making unhappy sounds)
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18:37:15 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 4h 2m 6s ago: but do they have 4 simultaneous 24-hour days in a single rotation?
18:37:15 <kappabot> You don't have any new messages.
18:37:22 <kmc> oerjan: indeed
18:41:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13287
18:43:08 <Bike> in an alternate universe
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18:57:53 <boily> I'm disturbed. very disturbed. fungot, stop making sense. you're as intelligible as the average human.
18:57:53 <fungot> boily: with the strip, where we get to the equity for that project developers face in securing their next board meeting on the street. 1102 end order form on the enron travel management
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19:03:31 <oerjan> <Guest40257> dead channel ?? <-- it's just resting hth
19:04:52 <oerjan> yay i got through the logs
19:05:21 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
19:06:08 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:06:54 <Taneb> ahaha I remember `list
19:07:40 <Taneb> Challenge: get HackEgo on the `list without editing the file
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19:10:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/list
19:12:36 <metasepia> CYUL 151900Z 14017G24KT 15SM -SHRA BKN085 OVC120 15/03 A2956 RMK AC7AC1 SLP012 DENSITY ALT 500FT
19:14:02 -!- oerjan has changed nick to HackEgo__.
19:14:07 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:14:09 -!- HackEgo__ has changed nick to oerjan.
19:14:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
19:15:02 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:15:19 <kmc> "...many a programmer derives a major part of his professional excitement from not quite understanding what he is doing, from the daring risks he takes and from the struggle to find the bugs he should not have introduced in the first place." -- EWD
19:15:20 <boily> j'en suis impressionné.
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19:29:20 <nooodl__> `run sed -i 's/";$/" | rnooodl;/' bin/?
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19:30:07 <nooodl__> `learn nooodl is a nooodl nooodl nooodl.
19:30:31 <HackEgo> bin/! \ bin/? \ bin/@ \ bin/e \ bin/h \ bin/q \ bin/y \ bin/z
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19:31:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/rnooodl
19:31:54 <nooodl__> `run echo 'perl -pe '\''s/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'\' > bin/rnooodl
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19:32:10 <HackEgo> nooodl is a nooodl nooooooodl nooooooodl.
19:32:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
19:33:29 <HackEgo> Can't open hello!: No such file or directory.
19:33:38 <HackEgo> #!/bihn/bahsh \ ehcho "$@"
19:33:48 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
19:34:01 <HackEgo> ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ... hello??? \ ..
19:34:05 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
19:34:17 <boily> `z HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW!
19:34:18 <HackEgo> HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLOOOOOOW! \ HEEELLLLLO
19:34:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/q
19:35:55 <HackEgo> bin/q: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
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19:36:54 <HackEgo> bin/?: then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ bin/?: then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl;
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20:15:09 <boily> olsner: what kind of glorous food is it?
20:17:12 <olsner> boily: beef stroganoff
20:18:47 <boily> olsner: eat it like a king. that beef deserves full regalia.
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20:45:31 <kappabot> mnoqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg kappabot @messages' to read it.
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20:47:15 <mnoqy> that's the same message I already got !
20:48:36 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
20:48:52 <HackEgo> noooooodl is a nooooodl nooooooodl nooodl.
20:48:55 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl is a noooooodl nooooodl noooooodl.
20:49:23 <mnoqy> oh no is this another dang special case
20:49:58 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
20:50:12 <nooodl> output gets piped through this thing
20:50:45 <nooodl> except that output :-(
20:50:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/%3F
20:51:18 <Vorpal> err, does anyone know if I can find a stock windows 7 pro (64-bit) iso file somewhere? I have a valid and legit key (from MSDNAA last year), but no cd or iso around it seems...
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21:01:22 <Taneb> I started thinking about category theory
21:01:29 <Taneb> And now I think categories form a category
21:01:43 <oerjan> yes they do. what's the problem?
21:01:51 <mnoqy> theres a category of -small- categories
21:02:07 <Bike> category of fatass categories
21:02:11 <Taneb> Then another part of my head is going "Nathan, of course categories are categories. That's like saying fish are fish"
21:02:11 <mnoqy> maybe you're looking for the 2-category of categories or something like that
21:02:23 <Taneb> And the first part of my brain is going "Shut up, that's not what I mean"
21:02:27 <olsner> `quote category theory
21:02:29 <HackEgo> 288) <ais523> the big issue with category theory is that pretty much everything forms a category \ 890) <coppro> GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles <GreyKnight> oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D \ 999) <olsner> in category theory, categor
21:02:31 <boily> (hm. the wiki isn't up to date, and I'd like to know the range at which the hall of blades can appear, now that the vaults are 5 deep.)
21:02:35 <Bike> the another part of your head kinda sucks imo
21:02:45 <Taneb> I may have unearthed deep-set psychological issues
21:02:58 <Bike> is the issue category theory
21:03:03 <HackEgo> 999) <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
21:03:07 <mnoqy> boily: fyi the wiki is never up to date
21:03:10 <boily> Taneb: you're a regular on this channel. you can't have deep-set psychological issues.
21:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you can't have deep-set psychological issues, you're so bubbly and cheery all the time
21:03:38 <boily> mnoqy: good evening. I'm beginning to realise that it's in a permanent case of 'hth'.
21:04:04 <mnoqy> you should ask ##crawl about the wiki
21:04:08 <mnoqy> they have "opinions"
21:04:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that's because when I feel like being nasty I pretend to be you
21:04:25 <boily> at least I'm downloading and compiling the brand new incredible shiny wonderful android studio. gotta love the AUR guys.
21:04:48 <boily> mnoqy: nah. they are weird and spontaneous and incoherent and bizarre, and yes, they do have nopinions.
21:11:48 <pikhq_> I have deep-set psychological issues! :P
21:14:05 <pikhq_> Drug-induced sleep issues are *great*.
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21:39:58 <FireFly> That's a lot of happiness in one smiley, mnoqy
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21:58:45 <Taneb> Hey guys, you know how I suck at everything
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21:59:27 <Taneb> I've managed to get my computer not able to use Skype, which was originally a problem in Ubuntu 13.04 but they released a work-around which for me doesn't work
21:59:31 <Taneb> It does around, though
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22:11:28 <olsner> just write down the quote number and you can ask HackEgo for the quote
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22:49:19 <owl> archytpal ascention, captured, cultivated and controlled by a future world leader is nearing soon
22:49:37 <HackEgo> owl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:58:54 <FireFly> That guy was *clearly* into the other kind of esoterica
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00:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> someone port cquote to esolangs, i'm too lazy to do it
00:38:22 <elliott> can't port wikipedia templates without permission from all the authors
00:38:40 <elliott> btw it's Esolang singular!!
00:39:23 <unterberg> or ask for permission.. are there so many authors?
00:40:41 <Bike> do many wikipedians program templates?
00:40:51 <Bike> i've been kind of assuming it's a cadre of maybe eight total dorknerds doing all that
00:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but that cadre has probably had some turnover over the years
00:42:31 <unterberg> well, just wanted to point out that's sometimes it's not a bad idea just to ask
00:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> there are actually a ton of people in the page history
00:43:14 <elliott> we migrated one template over to Esolang because it turned out that the only person who had ever changed it was ais523
00:43:29 <elliott> note: we only realised this /after/ resigning ourselves to not having it
00:43:55 <Bike> y'all are good at bureaucracy arencha
00:51:57 <elliott> it'll be in ais523's template namespace contribs
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01:24:31 <Sgeo> "Don't choose Prepaid Card unless you got it from Luke in a promotion at a lug. "
01:26:54 <Sgeo> I guess that's not very wat
01:27:45 <unterberg> i found mediawikis api to be so huge, i'm sure diggin through it you will even find a way to connect it your fridges interface
01:28:28 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/1ee0eg/zpanel_support_team_calls_forum_user_fucken/ lol ol ol
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02:24:55 <Sgeo> Good coders trying to write reliable code should try to stick with well-documented, stable APIs, that behave sanely. Evil coders get to use whatever they can find
02:25:09 <kmc> what about chaotic neutral coders
02:25:39 <Sgeo> A decent webapp has no legitimate reason to use VBScript. But if there's something lurking there that an attacker can use, they can use it, at least when victims are using IE
02:25:50 * Bike still conflicted on use of "sanely"
02:26:39 <elliott> i have no idea what is even the topic
02:28:31 <Sgeo> If some browser supports a weird Javascript API foobarbaz() but other browsers don't, and foobarbaz isn't well documented, I shouldn't rely on it, but it still risks my user's data and who knows what else if it can interact with my code in ways I may not know about
02:28:50 <Sgeo> Because attackers are free to use foobarbaz
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02:45:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: how did you get that messge if you already got it
02:46:01 <shachaf> mnoqy; lucky for you KAPPABOT IS DEAD
02:49:20 <Jafet> Do you think death could possibly be a bot?
02:54:41 <Sgeo> https://raw.github.com/cbcercas/zpanel-freebsd/master/config_packs/freebsd/bin/zsudo.c
02:54:45 <Sgeo> Is... is this a joke?
02:55:07 <Sgeo> That doesn't do what I think it does, does it? Let random users put arbitrary strings into commands to be executed?
02:55:35 <pikhq_> There is so much wrong there.
02:56:12 <Sgeo> Is it bad that I only see what I mentioned and the buffer overflow that I wouldn't know how to exploit?
02:57:09 <Bike> so does anyone notable use zpanel; if so why
02:58:08 <pikhq_> Looks to me like you could manage a return-to-libc attack on it.
02:58:18 <Sgeo> I don't know what a return-to-libc attack is
02:58:23 <Bike> what the heck is this even for
02:58:30 <kmc> Sgeo: you should learn because it's cool
02:58:32 <Bike> Sgeo: wikipedia has an article
02:58:44 <Bike> also has a cool name
02:58:44 <kmc> and return oriented programming is cooler
02:58:47 <kmc> (a generalization)
02:59:00 <pikhq_> I'd need some fiddling to *do* it, but that's where I'd start.
02:59:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: It's a fun exercise to figure these things out!
02:59:04 <Bike> 'return to libc' is way better a name than 'buffer overflow' or whatever, i think
02:59:05 <pikhq_> Cause it's totally doable.
02:59:14 <Bike> but seriously, what is this zsudo even for.
02:59:21 <shachaf> Bike: "buffer overflow" is a different thing.
02:59:32 <Bike> I'm just talking about the names.
02:59:56 <Sgeo> Does seem easier to just close the ' in the argument...
03:00:08 <Sgeo> I guess that's boring though
03:00:17 <pikhq_> It probably is easier to exploit that way, yes.
03:00:21 <kmc> it turns out that every binary gives rise to an esolang, whose primitive operations are any instruction sequences in the binary ending in a RET
03:00:33 <kmc> and on x86 it doesn't even need to be an intentional RET, just a C3 byte anywhere
03:00:50 <shachaf> Or some other indirect jumps.
03:00:54 <kmc> and for any nontrivial binary this esolang is complete for writing shellcode
03:00:54 <pikhq_> String interpolation in the arguments to system() is really sneaky.
03:01:31 <Sgeo> Even I was capable of seeing it.
03:01:38 <pikhq_> Yes. It's just a *bad idea*.
03:01:46 <pikhq_> Cause it's so trivial to exploit.
03:01:49 <Bike> so what is it forrrrr
03:01:59 <Sgeo> (Although I was primed with the knowledge that the code was bad)
03:02:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I wouldn't have seen it if I thought it was good code
03:03:06 <pikhq_> Bike: It *basically* runs whatever command is passed to it as the user it's setuid to.
03:03:21 <pikhq_> In a particularly strange way.
03:03:28 <Bike> aren't there utilities do that already
03:03:38 <pikhq_> Yes, but this one doesn't require a password.
03:04:03 <Jafet> Why are they even writing C. I'm pretty sure php scripts can be setuid.
03:04:14 <pikhq_> This thing is several levels of root exploit all in one.
03:04:25 <kmc> Jafet: that suggestion makes me throw up a bit in my mouth
03:04:52 <Jafet> kmc: dude, no more buffer overflows
03:05:37 <kmc> what does setuid(geteuid()) do again?
03:08:12 <kmc> so if i run a setuid root program, i get uid = 1000, euid = 0
03:08:36 <pikhq_> And setuid(0) then makes uid = 0.
03:08:48 <kmc> which is important to exec'd processes, or something?
03:09:36 <kmc> i like that the git repo also contains a binary for zsudo
03:10:06 <Jafet> Maybe that's another exploit
03:10:20 <Jafet> Maybe zpanel is actually a honeypot
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03:26:27 <shachaf> Sgeo: `olist update on Friday, remember?
03:36:32 <shachaf> Oh, there are exciting new ways of addressing kmc.
03:36:45 <Bike> hi is usually a function?
03:37:13 <shachaf> holomorphism is usually a function hth
03:39:20 <Sgeo> ...Is that where 'miuaf' comes from
03:39:30 <Sgeo> ...where did I get the word dagnabit from
03:41:45 <Sgeo> I may have gotten the word from Fitznik
03:41:51 <Sgeo> Here, have some Fitznik 2 musoc
03:42:00 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi71sO2hS0
03:43:33 <Sgeo> Oh come on that person only uploads one Fitznik 2 song?
03:43:51 <Sgeo> Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP_rNaJ1vOw
03:44:10 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy chocolate chip chip chip
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03:44:21 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy chocolate chip chip chip
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03:56:40 <Sgeo> http://www.raspberrypi.com/
03:56:54 <Sgeo> I've never seen people need to buy codec licenses on their own before
03:57:10 <Sgeo> That ... kind of puts the debate about non-free codecs in perspective
03:58:15 <pikhq_> It's always been the case, the cost is just usually either invisible or ignored.
03:58:41 <pikhq_> Invisible in the case of, say, Windows, or DVD players, or such, where the license is part of the cost.
03:58:52 <pikhq_> Ignored in the case of ffmpeg, you dirty patent violator you.
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03:59:34 <Sgeo> What does Firefox 22+ do on non-Windows?
03:59:43 <Sgeo> ..rely on the OS I guess
04:00:30 <Sgeo> ... suddenly I feel like I really should continue to press for WebM versions of videos... and the Javascript necessary to support it
04:01:06 <Sgeo> Screw third-party vendors who don't know how to use their own product
04:01:27 <pikhq_> Firefox 22+ does the same on Windows. :P
04:01:51 <kmc> can i just say: fuck tha police
04:02:18 <Sgeo> kmc, I'm sure there are Linux users who refuse to use ffmpeg
04:02:21 <Sgeo> And similar things
04:02:29 <Sgeo> I have a friend who refuses on principle to use Flash
04:02:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo: ffmpeg can be built without nonfree codecs.
04:02:33 <shachaf> kmc: only in soviet russia hth
04:02:34 <Bike_> oh you're not talking about the police
04:02:36 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
04:02:49 <pikhq_> It isn't generally *used* this way, but it's just a build option.
04:04:06 <pikhq_> So you'll have MPEG-1 and Theora and VP8. Oooh, aaaah.
04:04:29 <Sgeo> And the commom MPEG version is MPEG-4?
04:04:40 <Sgeo> (Based on filenames ending with .mp4)
04:04:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, the common *recent* MPEG version is in the MPEG-4 spec.
04:04:55 <pikhq_> That'll fall out of patent in like 10 years.
04:05:30 <pikhq_> MPEG-2 should be out of patent pretty soon if it's not already.
04:05:56 <pikhq_> That'll be a bit of a bigger deal, because MPEG-2 is still actually used a lot.
04:06:36 <pikhq_> (most digital TV systems are based on MPEG-2)
04:06:43 <unterberg> you mean like it could even get used more?=
04:07:45 * Sgeo wonders what the extension is for MPEG-3
04:07:53 <shachaf> Why are my palms spotted red and white and very itchy?
04:08:36 <Bike> shachaf: stigmata?
04:08:43 <pikhq_> MPEG-3 was designed for a bit but it was discovered that MPEG-2 actually worked for HD video.
04:08:51 <pikhq_> unterberg: That's MPEG-I layer 3 audio.
04:08:54 <Sgeo> Did they avoid naming a codec that because of other file format extension? Oh
04:09:10 <pikhq_> MP3 is patent-free by now.
04:09:42 <Jafet> After 20 years, you can generally expect a compression algorithm to be totally useless
04:09:43 <pikhq_> Oh, shit, no it's not, because the patent system was wonky then.
04:09:48 <Sgeo> Isn't gif out of patent?
04:10:14 <lifthrasiir> > As a result, patents required to implement MP3 expired in most countries by December 2012, 21 years after the publication of ISO CD 11172.
04:10:15 <kappabot> <hint>:1:12: parse error on input `,'
04:10:38 <Sgeo> People don't seem to be switching back to .gif from .png
04:11:00 <Sgeo> When MPEG-4 comes out of patent, will people switch from WebM to MPEG-4 exclusively?
04:11:02 <Bike> Sgeo: what you have to understand is, lolgif
04:11:31 <Sgeo> http://gifs.gifbin.com/1234778541_lol.jpg
04:11:36 <Jafet> I like how video codec implementations are distributed based on the rationalization that although they infringe patents in the country where they're written and distributed, they might conceivably not infringe in some other country
04:12:36 <Bike> patent law is fucked, pretty much any rationalization is fine with me
04:12:42 <pikhq_> Jafet: And the rationale that source code isn't an infringing product, it's just part of an infringing product.
04:12:51 <pikhq_> Yeah, patent law is fucked.
04:12:59 <Jafet> I thought the usual one was that only use of the code would be infringing
04:13:10 <Sgeo> Content-Type:image/jpeg
04:13:15 <pikhq_> Yes, but the code itself is just text.
04:13:31 <Bike> reading old arguments for copyright law is great
04:13:39 <pikhq_> This doesn't apply to the DMCA of course.
04:13:49 <pikhq_> As that makes *text describing how to circumvent* illegal.
04:13:53 <Sgeo> I... does the browser just ignore Content-Type of images?
04:14:08 <Sgeo> And why the hell is a GIFBIN sending image/jpeg in any circumstance
04:14:16 <Jafet> This doesn't apply outside murika, of course.
04:14:31 <Jafet> Or countries which have been politically pressured to emulate the DMCA locally.
04:14:39 <Sgeo> If I upload a .html that manages to look like both a GIF and HTML, and give it a file extension ending with .html, will it be served as text/html?
04:14:46 <Bike> Sgeo: The web is also fucked.
04:14:49 <Bike> Everything is fucked.
04:14:53 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Probably, but good luck pulling that off.
04:15:07 <Sgeo> I don't even know if I have to make it look like both
04:15:14 <Jafet> pikhq: it's been done with html/jar
04:15:44 <pikhq_> Jafet: That's nontrivial but probably actually doable.
04:16:00 <pikhq_> Particularly if the JAR detection is naive and you don't care about it being *valid* JAR.
04:16:17 <Sgeo> myprettyjsonpapi?callback=<script></script>&x=.html
04:16:30 <Sgeo> Although I think IE9 at least knows that that's not really HTML...
04:16:31 <pikhq_> Shove 0x06054b50 in an HTML comment towards the end of the file.
04:16:58 <pikhq_> With some more *work* it'd be doable to make it actually valid JAR.
04:17:42 <pikhq_> If you're careful you can have arbitrary data shoved in a ZIP file.
04:18:17 <pikhq_> As an implementation is *required* to ignore anything not pointed to by the footer.
04:18:29 <pikhq_> Which is itself somewhere within the last 64k of the file.
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04:19:51 <pikhq_> ZIP is freaking designed to have shit hidden in it.
04:20:54 <Bike> Aw man, the place I read Macaulay''s 19th century copyright speeches fell docwn.
04:23:36 <Bike> http://www.baen.com/library/palaver4.htm good old IE error
04:24:02 <kmc> isn't WebM compression better than MPEG-4?
04:24:42 <pikhq_> Worse than MPEG-4 Part 10 (i.e. H.264), better than MPEG-4 Part 2.
04:24:54 <pikhq_> MPEG-4 containes two *different* video codecs.
04:25:13 <kmc> yeah i was thinking of part 2
04:25:57 <pikhq_> WebM is nowhere near as good of a format as the marketing would tell you (seriously, they said it was *better than H.264?*), but it's not bad.
04:26:23 <pikhq_> It's "somewhat worse than H.264 baseline" rather than "... ffmpeg MPEG-2 beats it. Jesus."
04:26:48 <Jafet> What's the complexity class of h.264
04:27:02 <pikhq_> (this probably isn't too fair, ffmpeg MPEG-2 is *really* good.)
04:27:34 <Bike> i should probably figure out how video works some time. have some non-surface idea of why I can't watch video on my computer
04:27:49 <pikhq_> Bike: It's a clusterfuck.
04:28:01 <Bike> well, yes, that much is obvious from the preceding conversation if nothing else
04:28:18 <pikhq_> Basically, digital video includes every single bad decision of broadcasting engineers over the course of 50 years.
04:28:20 <Jafet> Is there anything in computer technology that isn't a clusterfuck
04:28:31 <Sgeo> If different files are encoded in different bitrates, is there a reason for a video player to try to choose one?
04:28:33 <Bike> Is there anything that isn't a clusterfuck. Is there anything. Is
04:28:33 <pikhq_> Digital video is so to a unique degree.
04:28:40 <Sgeo> I don't understand bitrates
04:28:54 <Bike> I'm curious about the historical aspect, pikhq.
04:29:04 <Bike> (now that you mention it, i mean)
04:29:05 <pikhq_> Sgeo: It's nothing more than the number of bits per second.
04:29:16 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Which is loosely correlated with quality, but only loosely.
04:29:24 <pikhq_> Bike: Are you familiar with interlacing?
04:29:40 <Bike> That's like how old TVs only displayed alternate lines?
04:29:51 <pikhq_> This is *part of video standards*.
04:30:18 <Jafet> Because some people decided to interlace digital videos
04:30:19 <Sgeo> Should I watch this? http://www.xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml
04:30:25 <pikhq_> Because video codecs were designed so that they could basically store regular OTA signals without modification.
04:30:37 <pikhq_> Bike: Which means that they had to encode interlaced signals.
04:30:44 <pikhq_> Because the *broadcast itself is interlaced*.
04:30:50 <pikhq_> Only the alternate lines even exist.
04:31:03 <Bike> "a half-hour firehose of information" i don't think i'm up for this
04:31:08 <pikhq_> There's still more crazy shit.
04:31:18 <pikhq_> For instance, pixels in SD video are *not square*.
04:31:19 <Bike> keep going, keep going, you've got me hooked
04:31:26 <Bike> what... does that mean
04:31:37 <pikhq_> Taller than they are wide.
04:31:46 <Jafet> @google pixels are not squares
04:31:47 <Bike> i'd... expect the opposite?
04:31:48 <pikhq_> Because this is how it happened to work on analog signals.
04:31:49 <kappabot> http://ftp.alvyray.com/Memos/CG/Microsoft/6_pixel.pdf
04:31:49 <kappabot> Title: A Pixel Is Not A Little Square, A Pixel Is Not A Little Square, A Pixel Is Not A ...
04:32:01 <pikhq_> On computers, they're square.
04:32:20 <Bike> give eme little squares or give me death
04:32:28 <pikhq_> The upshot of which is that to display SD signals you need to scale the signal *no matter the resolution of your screen*.
04:32:33 <pikhq_> This on top of your deinterlacing.
04:32:43 <Bike> that sounds computationally expensive
04:33:18 <pikhq_> Also fun: most digital SD signals actually have the vertical blanking area encoded.
04:33:30 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's right. It's got black bits on the side.
04:33:43 <Bike> in... the signal?
04:33:50 <pikhq_> In the actual MPEG video.
04:33:59 <Bike> Like there's a bit in the file saying "this far to the left is black"?
04:34:04 <Sgeo> What happens if you put white bits there instead?
04:34:17 <pikhq_> The *video contains black there*.
04:34:32 <pikhq_> Which is why the video is 720x480 instead of 704x480.
04:34:39 <pikhq_> Only 704 of the pixels have video.
04:34:43 <pikhq_> The other 16 are black.
04:35:07 <Sgeo> If there was nontrivial video content there, would it just be an easter egg for someone to find, or would it break something?
04:35:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Doesn't break shit.
04:35:32 <pikhq_> Except it makes broadcast engineers cry.
04:35:58 <pikhq_> This is an area where the electron beam in an analog TV is off.
04:36:01 <Sgeo> I assume it gets ... compressed away though, right?
04:36:31 <pikhq_> It still takes space, but MPEG-style codecs are pretty good at dealing with regions that don't actually *move*.
04:37:17 <pikhq_> Bike: You'll also "love" that US TV is at 60000/1001 frames per second.
04:37:57 <pikhq_> This was done when color was introduced, so that the color signal wouldn't interfere with the audio.
04:38:10 <pikhq_> Before then it was 60.
04:38:21 <Bike> and... it's still present in digital formats, or...
04:38:44 <pikhq_> This also means that one doesn't generally find 24 fps content, one finds 24000/1001 fps content.
04:39:04 <pikhq_> Often stuck *in* a 60000/1001 stream via telecine.
04:39:44 <pikhq_> (this is where each frame is shown in a pattern of 2, 3, 2, 3, ... frames)
04:39:44 <Jafet> 3:2 "nobody will notice it"
04:40:23 <pikhq_> European video does something slightly wonkier. They just speed up the video slightly so it's at 25 fps.
04:40:37 <pikhq_> Because it's 50 fps there.
04:40:45 <pikhq_> (because they use 50 Hz power)
04:41:17 <Jafet> Well, those could have been reasonable decisions at the time.
04:41:27 <Bike> i believe that is the point.
04:41:45 <pikhq_> Yes, this was done so they wouldn't need a timing circuit.
04:41:53 <pikhq_> And instead just use the power as a clock.
04:42:02 <pikhq_> Not that that helped in Japan...
04:42:11 <Jafet> Even clocks use the power grid as clocks
04:42:16 <Jafet> That's a bit funny
04:42:59 <pikhq_> Their TV is 60 fps. Their power is 50 or 60 Hz depending on which half of the country you're in.
04:45:01 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higashi-Shimizu_Frequency_Converter
04:47:57 <Bike> 100 cubits of electricity is a biblical law, pikhq
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04:53:04 <pikhq_> Jafet: They're the only country using 100V.
04:53:47 <Jafet> This makes exports more difficult, I guess
04:54:24 <pikhq_> Except nowadays electronics tend to have 100-250V 50/60Hz power supplies.
04:54:42 <pikhq_> And Japan uses the US sockets.
04:55:06 <pikhq_> (like every country using 120V 60Hz power...)
04:56:13 <Jafet> 100V is probably insignificantly safer
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04:56:53 <pikhq_> They also generally don't have grounded sockets.
04:58:25 <shachaf> Going to lectures by famous people is kind of annoying because people come to ask completely irrelevant questions.
04:59:10 <shachaf> I guess Feynman had a solution to that.
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04:59:55 <kmc> did he punch them?
05:01:16 <shachaf> I think he just went under a different name.
05:02:05 <shachaf> Anyway yesterday someone asked "Is mathematics a human invention or a discovery blah blah blah"
05:02:36 <pikhq_> Look at that, you think of yourself as a great philosopher. Ain't that adorable.
05:02:41 <Bike> mathematicians, the foremost opinions on philosophy of maths
05:02:47 <Bike> that wasn't supposed to be "opinions"
05:03:26 <shachaf> are bicycles discovered or invented
05:05:41 <shachaf> There should be a button people press to indicate that they understood your pun.
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05:05:52 <Bike> "the bike button"
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05:11:57 <shachaf> oerjan: the joke is that you "groan" at puns, as in "grown", hth
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05:13:42 <Bike> Why does oerjan need to be informed of this
05:13:57 <shachaf> oerjan needs to be informe of everything
05:14:01 <shachaf> why do you think he logreads
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12:49:14 <boily> as long as I can autocomplete on 'ta <TAB>', everything's fine.
12:53:16 <Jafet> > (zipWith (-) `on` ord) "taneb" "atriq"
12:53:17 <kappabot> Couldn't match expected type `[c0]'
12:53:20 <Jafet> > (zipWith (-) `on` map ord) "taneb" "atriq"
12:53:42 <Jafet> > (zipWith (+) `on` map ord) "taneb" "atriq"
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15:02:01 <boily> oh, only one reply from fungot?
15:02:02 <fungot> boily: meeting with transalta and other me priorities. identify any necessary true that aec for such a site
16:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, fuck, I just realised I really want to read Prequel again.
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17:14:07 <Bike> > ((1/).(1/)) -0.0
17:14:08 <kappabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional (c0 -> c0))
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17:46:57 <oerjan> <Bike> Why does oerjan need to be informed of this <-- this also eludes me, maybe the rest of the logs will clarify.
17:47:45 <oerjan> ah. in that case, did i say anything, at any time, that provoked your information? dwh
17:48:10 <Bike> "this would help"?
17:48:14 <boily> there was hambiguity.
17:48:26 <oerjan> and Bike is the winner! or close enough, anyway.
17:48:33 <Bike> i could go for some hambiguity atm
17:48:47 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:49:03 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:49:15 <oerjan> kappabot: what did you do to poor lambdabot
17:49:48 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:50:03 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:50:12 <oerjan> i sense a lack of databases.
17:50:13 <metasepia> A representation, usually on a plane surface, of a region of the earth or heavens.
17:50:29 <metasepia> Software description: add commands to use Hoogle within vim (VimL).
17:51:09 <oerjan> shachaf: ah it's your bot that explains the impatient PATIENCE
17:52:13 <kappabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:52:13 <kappabot> Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:52:13 <kappabot> Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
17:53:04 <kappabot> Data.Data class Typeable a => Data a
17:53:05 <kappabot> Data.Data dataCast1 :: (Data a, Typeable1 t) => (forall d. Data d => c (t d)) -> Maybe (c a)
17:54:08 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> there are actually a ton of people in the page history <-- but how many of those are vandals that were reverted? you could _probably_ consider those not to share in the copyright, right?
17:55:10 <Bike> what if you went on a daring ocean's eleven style heist to just /steal/ the template
17:55:48 <oerjan> Bike: that would not help the esolang wiki hth
17:56:09 <Bike> what if instead of not helping... it did helping?
17:56:20 <olsner> Bike: stealing doesn't quite work like that on information
17:57:32 <Bike> have you tried
18:01:14 <oerjan> `log i[s] now known as unterberg
18:01:20 <HackEgo> 2013-05-15.txt:18:34:20: -!- madb4rd2 is now known as unterberg.
18:01:53 <olsner> ... is now known to unterberg.
18:02:04 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA YOU HAVE BEEN REVEALED*
18:03:12 <shachaf> oerjan: can i been revealed.....
18:03:17 <kappabot> Control.Lens.Fold (^?!) :: s -> Getting (Endo a) s a -> a
18:03:18 <kappabot> Control.Lens.Operators (^?!) :: s -> Getting (Endo a) s a -> a
18:03:35 <oerjan> `log i[s] now known as shachaf
18:03:40 <HackEgo> 2012-10-22.txt:09:10:19: -!- SHACHAF is now known as shachaf.
18:04:00 <oerjan> shachaf: that seems somehow unsatisfactory.
18:04:47 <oerjan> boily: to make sure the line doesn't match itself.
18:05:09 <Bike> `log is that actually necessary
18:05:14 <HackEgo> 2013-05-16.txt:18:05:09: <Bike> `log is that actually necessary
18:06:00 <oerjan> Bike: there is also `pastlog which restricts to not matching today
18:06:02 <HackEgo> 2013-03-14.txt:00:02:31: <kmc> yes Bike, there exist multiple RSS readers
18:06:38 <HackEgo> 2013-01-19.txt:15:03:37: <Sgeo_> http://hypirion.com/swearjure (yes shachaf, this is Clojure related)
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18:06:50 <HackEgo> 2007-12-31.txt:21:50:20: <ehird> yes oerjan
18:06:53 <HackEgo> 2013-01-14.txt:07:31:52: <Bike> no shachaf, no
18:07:24 <boily> `log mayb[e] boily
18:07:29 <HackEgo> 2013-02-07.txt:20:55:36: <elliott> maybe boily had some cleverer exploit in mind I didn't though
18:07:59 <HackEgo> 2013-05-05.txt:23:26:11: <olsner> perhaps Bike is what you should be terrified of
18:08:56 <HackEgo> 2012-02-23.txt:18:53:06: <elliott> Noooo
18:09:23 <HackEgo> 2013-04-14.txt:15:08:24: <ThatOtherPerson> nooooooooooooooooo
18:09:27 <HackEgo> 2012-08-27.txt:23:26:47: <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your monad transformer stack
18:23:38 <zzo38> Now I made a SQL database of the headers of all of the Infocom games (including the unreleased ones).
18:24:12 <Lumpio-> An SQL database sounds surprisingly... normal for zzo38
18:24:27 <Lumpio-> Surely it's not anything mainstream like sqlite/postgresql/mysql?
18:25:28 <boily> zzo38: that kind of non-obscure attitude is poorly viewed in this channel. stop being logical and normal.
18:27:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> Why are my palms spotted red and white and very itchy? <-- that reminds me of a similar experience, 14 years ago. did this (1) start with thinking extremely negative thoughts and (2) continue with vomiting ?
18:28:05 <zzo38> It includes the unreleased files; there seems to be one Zork I file in version 6. There is also something called "Milliways" which is also version 6; this is not mentioned in the Z-Machine Standards Document.
18:29:23 <boily> tth logic, with transistors and hambiguities?
18:29:27 <oerjan> the acronyms are breeding!
18:29:37 <elliott> oerjan: sounds like an exciting experience
18:30:11 <kmc> http://gomsx.net/hansotten/msxdocs/machinecodeforbeginners.pdf fuck yes I had this book growing up
18:30:29 <oerjan> elliott: it made me realize that sometimes it is important not to think about stuff too much hth
18:30:36 <shachaf> i thought you grew up before books were invented
18:30:57 <olsner> oerjan: sounds like that animal poison that supposedly causes a feeling of impending doom
18:31:17 <shachaf> kmc: Is it worth it waiting N minutes for the 15MB file to load?
18:31:23 <kmc> I thought so
18:31:26 <kmc> but nostalgia
18:32:29 <elliott> kmc: how do I get chromium to show pdfs in a little embedded evince thing
18:32:31 <elliott> it has to be possible right
18:32:37 <shachaf> Hmm, that picture looks promising.
18:32:45 <shachaf> elliott: just use libpdf.so hth
18:32:57 <kmc> i dion't know
18:33:08 <oerjan> olsner: i think i had better triggers for feelings of impending doom than that at the time hth
18:33:24 <Bike> this channel has an hth problem
18:33:38 <oerjan> just say no to hth hth
18:34:01 <elliott> kmc: well i sure hope that fancy mozilla browser does pdfs nicely!!
18:34:29 <Bike> hello, am mozilla firefox of afghanistan
18:34:37 <boily> Bike: we're still under 0.2 hpp.
18:34:55 <boily> (Hambigs Per PRIVMSG)
18:34:57 <Bike> i don't know what that means. are you hitting on me
18:35:39 <oerjan> zzo38: milliways is the name of the restaurant at the end of the universe in douglas adams' book of the latter name fwiw
18:35:44 <shachaf> Bike: hitting on you is the purpose of this channel hth
18:36:01 <boily> Bike: we can still be friends.
18:36:16 <olsner> hmm, fwiw and hth seem like synonyms
18:36:28 <Bike> that's because they're both meaningless.
18:37:07 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, it's only ~0 pages.
18:37:21 <oerjan> fwiw they're _not_ meaningless hth
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18:37:48 <Bike> considering figuring out how to get irssi to black out "hth"
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18:38:04 <boily> they're meaningless hth. ftfy.
18:38:05 <shachaf> just /ignore lines that end in hth hth
18:38:18 <boily> shachaf: irssi can do that?
18:38:24 <elliott> ok seriously stop the hth thing or i'm going to go crazy
18:38:41 <Bike> you can ignore patterns, yeah
18:38:41 <boily> hth. hth. hth! HTH HTH HTHHHHH N
18:38:41 <shachaf> boily: /ignore -regexp hth$ hth
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 -replies: Ignore replies to nick in channels. For example
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 "/IGNORE -replies *!*@*.fi PUBLIC" ignores everyone
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 from Finland, but also anyone sending message
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 "tofinnishnick: blahblah".
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18:40:02 <olsner> elliott: are you sure it's not too late?
18:41:21 <boily> I'm disturbed. there's at least one web framework written in any possible language: http://leafo.net/lapis/
18:42:11 <Bike> what the heck is surprising about lua
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18:42:45 <olsner> is there a web framework for fortran? intercal?
18:43:02 <Bike> there's one for cobol, as demonstrated by our illustrious friend earlier
18:43:03 <boily> Bike: no problems in lua. it's the moonscript part that surprises me.
18:43:17 <shachaf> http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ hth
18:43:22 <Bike> it has "script" in it so i'm not surprised
18:46:24 <boily> we should then rename brainfsck to brainscript, then magically a web framework will appear.
18:46:55 <elliott> Bike: arrays being indexed from 1
18:47:18 <Bike> a practice started by notable mainstream language APL!!!
18:48:43 <shachaf> APL isn't even a programming language hth
18:51:24 * oerjan can finally press the Bike button.
18:51:43 <olsner> what's the Bike button?
18:51:54 <Bike> The button you press when somebody doesn't understand a pun.
18:51:54 <olsner> what's the Bike button do?
18:52:05 <Bike> It gets pressed.
18:52:19 <shachaf> don't depress the Bike button
18:52:26 <olsner> shachaf: I'm not doing anything, the question is what the button does
18:52:34 <kmc> lua is a fine language with a really fast JIT
18:52:48 <kmc> i guess MoonScript is the CoffeeScript of Lua?
18:54:09 <Bike> olsner: http://25.media.tumblr.com/9b696b6531098b0ff81bef25af1b3027/tumblr_mlswq3ZGrX1snfhwio1_1280.png
18:54:22 <oerjan> Bike: no, that's when you _do_ understand a pun, sheesh
18:56:50 <Bike> I don't understand puns, oerjan. Not now, not ever.
18:57:34 <shachaf> Bike: You didn't use to understand them, but they've grown on you.
18:57:35 * oerjan puts Bike on his nemesis list
18:57:46 <shachaf> oerjan: Am I on your nemesis list?
18:58:08 <boily> puns tend to grow like mushrooms.
18:58:15 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that.
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20:18:46 * shachaf considers /hilight -regexp chaf\b
20:21:56 <kmc> you should do that
20:23:18 <Bike> `run grep 'chaf$' /usr/share/dict/words
20:23:20 <HackEgo> grep: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
20:23:41 <shachaf> With my word list, at least.
20:23:49 <Bike> yeah, same, just gotta demonstrate
20:26:44 <oerjan> ooh, tekmo has changed/removed the behavior of StateP in the pipes library that i found so weird...
20:27:18 <shachaf> i choose to read that as "the pipes library that i found so weird"
20:34:11 <shachaf> Puzzle: Which word is used in the phrase "if for no other reason th[ae]n"?
20:35:54 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:36:21 <boily> Taneb: still having identity troubles?
20:36:27 <olsner> shachaf: is it "reason"?
20:36:39 <Taneb> boily, I don't know who I am any more
20:36:44 <Taneb> Maybe I'm just Phantom_Hoover
20:37:25 <shachaf> olsner: the puzzle is than vs. then
20:37:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, am I you?
20:38:01 <Taneb> boily, it's official
20:38:04 <Taneb> I'm actually Phantom_Hoover
20:38:09 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Phantom_____Hoov.
20:38:11 <olsner> shachaf: it depends, is that the phrase with then or the one with than?
20:38:15 -!- Phantom_____Hoov has changed nick to Phantom___Hoover.
20:38:24 <shachaf> The *standard* phrase, olsner.
20:38:24 -!- Phantom___Hoover has changed nick to Taneb.
20:38:43 <Taneb> NickServ doesn't like me admitting our shared identity, Phantom_Hoover
20:38:52 <boily> shachaf: than if you're making a comparison. then if you're saying “if for no other reason, then that stuff will happen”.
20:39:15 <shachaf> boily; Yes, but *which is it*?
20:39:34 <shachaf> "if for no other reason then because X"
20:39:46 <boily> shachaf: than. you're comparing.
20:40:11 <boily> then. you're stating a consequent.
20:40:22 <shachaf> I know what "than" and "then" mean.
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20:50:28 <oerjan> if for no other reason than because you can say it like this
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20:51:18 <oerjan> except that's not a whole sentence
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20:52:04 <oerjan> you should make it a whole sentence, if for no other reason than because otherwise it just confuses shachaf
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20:52:59 <boily> they removed fulsome and evaporate from 0.12. I am sad.
20:53:19 <oerjan> evaporate was ... liquidated.
20:54:04 <boily> oerjan: remind me to whack you tomorrow morning.
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20:55:06 <oerjan> @tell boily whack me in the morning.
20:58:20 <kmc> T DEUCE WHACK ME IN THE MORNING
20:59:55 <Bike> petition to make T WHOEVER a synonym for @tell whoever
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21:01:12 <kmc> only if the entire message is in all caps
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21:23:51 <kmc> i need to get a better rubik's cube if I'm going to fiddle with it all day
21:23:54 <kmc> or else i will get RSI
21:25:05 <oerjan> rubik's scrambling insanity
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21:28:08 <elliott> kmc: are there premium rubik's cubes
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21:29:30 <elliott> made out of 100% aluminium
21:29:45 <kmc> i think high end speed cubes are still plastic but yes, they are lubricated
21:29:57 <kmc> usually with graphite or sillicone
21:30:01 <kmc> petroleum is bad
21:30:39 <olsner> high speed cubes with silly cone
21:30:48 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW-rd9ZR-TA
21:31:21 <Bike> 2 rubik 2 furious
21:31:41 <kmc> i went to college with one of the rubiks cube world record guys
21:31:53 <Bike> ok i can't help but be amused at the 2x2 record
21:31:55 <olsner> is that 3x3 cube really scrambled properly?
21:32:22 <kmc> i assume it is scrambled according to http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#article-4-scrambling
21:32:35 <Bike> world cube association
21:33:26 <olsner> looks like there's a lot of dexterity involved
21:34:06 <kmc> also you have to memorize a lot of different move sequences
21:34:44 <kmc> vs the simple methods used by dabblers such as myself
21:35:01 <kmc> which involve a few simple move sequences, that you may need to apply many times
21:35:26 <kmc> i think my record time for 3x3x3 is like... 1m30s
21:35:48 <olsner> I've never solved a cube
21:35:49 <pikhq> Mine's approx. 2m. (I don't have a good figure because it's been a while)
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21:49:13 <olsner> someone solved 2033 cubes in 2012, and apparently you need to be faster than about 8s to reach top 100
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21:52:06 <olsner> fungot: how are your cube skills?
21:52:06 <fungot> olsner: past 2001 outages related that impact accounting for any enron public relations with the different on our " form" llc agreement of the call you asked.
22:02:56 <kappabot> You don't have any new messages.
22:03:13 <Koen_> this is a job for the esoteric logs!
22:03:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:04:10 <olsner> thence the word enron in fungot's previous statement
22:04:10 <fungot> olsner: i may not see teams listed in the attached and let cynthia know any major complications of a schedule the next. market as
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22:22:50 <shachaf> elliott: Today at the store I saw a box labeled "Flake" an below that "the crumbliest, flakiest milk chocolate".
22:22:59 <shachaf> There was also some Arabic text (?).
22:23:05 <shachaf> Unfortunate it had been emptied.
22:24:08 <kmc> the flakiest milk chocolate is just air
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22:28:51 <shachaf> i can't concentrate on anything through my itchy palms and itchy feet and itchy stomach
22:30:20 <kmc> itch cream?
22:30:33 <elliott> i read that as a deliberate misspelling of ice cream
22:30:50 <elliott> i also started craving a flake when i read what shachaf said, maybe my body is trying to tell me it needs sugar
22:31:06 <shachaf> elliott: maybe you just need to wait patiently
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22:38:21 <kmc> i have some itch cream, it's p. good
22:38:28 <kmc> for itches i mean
22:38:29 <kmc> not to eat
22:39:03 <shachaf> that was better when i read it as "ice cream"
22:39:26 <shachaf> anyway it's all over my body everywhere
22:39:27 <elliott> i really want ice cream now
22:39:54 <Koen_> okay now my mouth is full of useless saliva TAHNK YOU
22:48:27 <Bike> saliva has all sorts of uses!
22:49:42 <kmc> i'm finding out that you can't mess around with saliva
22:50:18 <Bike> "mess around with"?
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22:54:35 <elliott> kmc meant to say salvia but typo'd the joke is kmc drugs
22:54:54 <shachaf> kmc meant to say sativa but typo'd the joke is kmc drugs
22:55:09 <kmc> all of that
22:55:50 <mnoqy> did someone say kmc drugs i love that joke
22:56:21 <Bike> drugs more like keegan laugh devices
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22:57:13 <shachaf> mnoqy: really what a coïncidence we make that joke in #esoteric a lot
22:57:46 <Bike> #esoteric-drugs
23:06:46 <Sgeo> I was so utterly furious earlier today
23:06:51 <Sgeo> I'm calm now though.
23:07:24 <shachaf> Sgeo: need help getting to that emotional peak again?
23:08:19 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: for now).
23:15:25 <kmc> Sgeo: what were you furious about?
23:16:22 <kmc> measured in furions
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23:26:34 <Sgeo> `welcome kingof9x
23:26:37 <HackEgo> kingof9x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:36:18 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjecYugTbIQ
23:37:13 <Sgeo> Doctor Who season finale
23:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott remember that thing about formal power series and types
23:39:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh what about it
23:40:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, is there any reason for me to get a Raspberry Pi
23:40:47 <Bike> power series and types?
23:40:48 <Sgeo> I don't even have an external monitor I can use :(
23:41:36 <Jafet> Informal power series
23:43:38 <kmc> Sgeo: well is there a project you want to do
23:43:45 <kmc> or do you think that having it will inspire you to do a project
23:43:47 <Sgeo> kmc, not really
23:43:55 <Sgeo> (At least not really to the former)
23:44:05 <kmc> i want to get one to run some LED strips
23:44:32 <Sgeo> And ... the latter seems more likely if, say, I had a server on prgmr or something
23:44:40 <Sgeo> Than if I had a little computer I could carry with me
23:45:14 <Sgeo> I can think of plenty of times in my past where I wished I had a server
23:45:45 <ais523> Sgeo: I eventually got one, for that reason
23:46:18 <Sgeo> I actually have money now that I could use to ... buy one
23:50:29 <kmc> is calling people eichmann the new calling people hitler
23:51:02 <Bike> isn't it pretty old? i mean there's that book "little eichmanns"
23:51:39 <Sgeo> ...apparently I don't know history. I thought you were referring to the guy who annoyed people and was involved with libc... but I think his name begins with U
23:52:02 <Bike> ulrich drepper, that is
23:52:21 <Bike> the point is: sgeo...........
23:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> who would've thought discrete maths 2 would have any practical applications
23:53:18 <Bike> practical applications in type theory
23:53:19 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: will you mail me some cadbury flake
23:53:43 <Bike> anyway: are there like a lot of papers about type theory and power series
23:53:44 <mnoqy> is cadbury flake good
23:54:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: i don't know i've never had any
23:54:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: how much would it be
23:54:18 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: elliott offered to pay for postage i think????
23:54:41 <kmc> q: whats flake
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flake_(chocolate_bar) flake
23:54:55 <shachaf> kmc: a: its like mekupelet hth
23:54:56 <Bike> some kind of british candy
23:55:05 <kmc> q: eat jaffa cakes instead hth
23:55:23 <shachaf> kmc: a: the jaffa cakes from the other day were kind of terrible hth
23:55:25 <Bike> we have 31 flavors
23:55:35 <elliott> kmc: let me get a good picture for you
23:55:36 <shachaf> or maybe it's me who was kind of terrible????????????
23:55:56 <elliott> kmc: http://www.bonappetit.com/images/magazine/2011/10/hipster-candy/cadbury-flake-484.jpg
23:55:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what
23:56:03 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: how can you be so wrong
23:56:09 <mnoqy> elliott: ah yes, hipster candy
23:56:12 <elliott> kmc: http://shutupinternet.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/flake.jpg
23:56:18 <shachaf> http://static.flickr.com/29/141111540_a537736a91_m.jpg
23:56:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: jaffa cakes are good btw
23:56:41 <shachaf> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/4965525449_295ccde31f.jpg mekupelet
23:56:45 <mnoqy> have i ever had a jaffa cake???no idea
23:57:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: "its a euphemism for simon marlow hth"
23:57:11 <elliott> mnoqy: do you want me to mail you some cadbury flake's + jaffa cake's (the proper mcvities kind)
23:57:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, how much do OLPCs cost
23:57:48 <elliott> okay i'll include some digestives
23:57:55 <elliott> mnoqy's going to learn ALL ABOUT biscuits
23:58:11 <Sgeo> Wasn't there a time you could buy one which would also donate one?
23:58:13 <shachaf> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kirsch/141111540/sizes/l/in/photostream/ better picture
23:58:29 <shachaf> elliott: hey i saw cadbury digestive biscuits for sale today
23:58:38 <shachaf> it sounds kind of disgusting
23:58:41 <elliott> shachaf: cadbury?? did they have chocolate on them
23:58:45 <elliott> not all digestive's have chocolates
23:58:47 <Bike> Sgeo: you could also donate some money without doing so as part of a purchased bundle.
23:58:58 <kmc> "digestive biscuit" is like the least appetizing name for a food
23:59:12 <Sgeo> Bike, sure, but maybe I want one >.>
23:59:18 <elliott> you kind of have to dunk it in milky tea for it to taste nice tho, regardless of whether you like milky tea or not
23:59:25 <Bike> aren't they basically just netbooks?
23:59:29 <elliott> since otherwise it's very... dry
23:59:29 <kmc> elliott: british lifehack
23:59:30 <Bike> i mean you can just, buy a netbook
23:59:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it depends
23:59:38 <elliott> if you have like half a digestive then sure it's okay dry
23:59:42 <elliott> but imo a full one is a bit much
23:59:46 <shachaf> this channel is disgusting
23:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> of late i take a bite out of the biscuit, then drink the tea and let them mix in my mouth
23:59:50 <Sgeo> Bike, it has some custom software which is interesting iirc
23:59:58 <kmc> Sgeo: i advise against buying an OLPC XO
23:59:59 <Bike> sorry are you talking about a food honestly called "digestive biscuit"
00:00:05 <Bike> Sgeo: oh yeah didn't it have some kind of squeak whatever
00:00:08 <kmc> they are underpowered and hard to run regular linux on
00:00:12 <shachaf> Bike: apaprently it's the most popular thing in .uk??????????
00:00:18 <Bike> kmc: so, like a netbook.
00:00:20 <kmc> if you really want to play with their software (and ideally contribute) then go ahead
00:00:21 <shachaf> and that's the actual name
00:00:24 <kmc> Bike: worse
00:00:37 <Bike> that's impressive, because my phone is better than my netbook.
00:00:38 <kmc> Bike: they aren't even IBM-compatible, they use OpenFirmware, which is cool, but Different
00:00:39 <elliott> Bike: digestives are fucking delicious
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00:00:46 <kmc> actually they might be IBM compatible now because they need to run windows now
00:00:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well they're similar to crackers
00:00:54 <Bike> why do they need to run windows?
00:00:56 <elliott> just thicker and sweeter and stuff
00:01:00 <Bike> eff revolution in ethiopia, maaaaan
00:01:25 <elliott> Bike: because nicholas negroponte is a shithead, AIUI
00:01:37 <Bike> i have no idea hwo that is
00:01:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Negroponte
00:02:03 <kmc> the XO can do a few cool things though
00:02:05 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/0eddc566cf8a80aa7f06e3af29a3460e/tumblr_mmx0p9PLo11qc6j5yo1_1280.jpg river of blood
00:02:12 <kmc> i ran mine off of four RC car batteries that i crudely wired to it
00:02:13 <mnoqy> oh i thought XO was hugs and kisses
00:02:17 <kmc> which powored it for at least 24h
00:02:17 <mnoqy> like HTH but more friendly
00:02:23 <kmc> it will accept any DC input in vaguely the right range
00:02:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: can i have hugs and kisses
00:02:41 <mnoqy> shachaf: do you have someone from which to receive them
00:02:46 <Bike> «From 1993 to 1998, he contributed a monthly column to the magazine in which he reiterated a basic theme: "Move bits, not atoms."» i'm drowning
00:03:19 <Bike> kmc: oh, that's definitely good, given how common generators are as a power source
00:03:20 <mnoqy> i dont do the "Hugs and Kiss Strangers not Even people I Know"
00:03:29 <mnoqy> im not a Hugs and Kisses guy
00:03:29 * kmc is watching the The Office series finale on an *actual TV* at the *actual air time*
00:03:32 <shachaf> mnoqy: you dont know me...........?
00:03:43 <Sgeo> I want to buy cheap computers for some reason
00:03:54 <mnoqy> shachaf: what does it mean to know someone
00:04:00 <Sgeo> I think I have a Pentium II machine somewhere
00:04:04 <kmc> Bike: yeah, also they made this big gadget that will charge like 20 XO batteries at once, and also had integrated power brick so you could power the laptop while you switch out batteries
00:04:04 <Bike> oh fuck is this guy a futurist
00:04:28 <Bike> so the idea is that a small town has a few of those? nice.
00:04:34 <kmc> Bike: yeah or like one per school
00:04:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you do just hugs
00:04:41 <kmc> also they have that wireless mesh networking
00:04:44 <kmc> i don't know if that actually worked
00:04:45 <kmc> but cool idea
00:04:47 <Bike> that i did know about
00:04:50 <mnoqy> i can do handshakes
00:04:59 <kmc> i know the firmware for it was one of the only non-free components :/
00:05:03 <Bike> would be cool if i lived in an area with multiple internet connections?
00:05:03 <shachaf> mnoqy: that's where you hug someone and then shake them
00:05:04 <mnoqy> sometimes i even do a high five it's weird
00:05:14 <mnoqy> Hm come to think of it that handshake may have just been in a dream
00:05:15 <Bike> «David Houle (born 1948) is a futurist, keynote speaker, and author of The Shift Age. He coined the phrase The Shift Age and identified this new age as the successor to the Information Age in 2007.» fuuuuck
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00:05:30 <mnoqy> i do hand shakes All the Time i did 2 today can you believe it
00:05:35 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo come to san francisco and hug everyone
00:05:36 <elliott> mnoqy: wow handshakes are awful tho
00:05:45 <elliott> hugs are way more viable by virtue of not being handshakes
00:05:48 <Bike> a BA in art history
00:05:57 <Bike> making him as qualified to talk about future technology as: my mom
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00:06:18 <mnoqy> elliott: how about the high five? the one that i experienced either in dream or real life was one of those ones where you like go in for a handshake but then you slap the hands together and pull them away and fist bump
00:06:27 <shachaf> mnoqy: "high five" = the devil
00:06:28 <mnoqy> i have reasons for doubting this ever happened
00:06:32 <Bike> oh man the publisher is called "Booksurge"
00:06:32 <elliott> high fives are....... okay.....
00:06:34 <Bike> that's amazing
00:06:40 <mnoqy> shachaf: it's more of a middle five, really
00:06:43 <elliott> since it depends on the person you're high fiving not hurting your hand a bunch!!
00:06:46 <Bike> kmc: do they integrate with that bank card thing?
00:06:48 <shachaf> mnoqy "five"s of any kind are the devil
00:07:00 <shachaf> even sixes are the devil (if you have six fingers)
00:07:01 <mnoqy> even low fiveS????
00:07:11 <mnoqy> what if i have 2 fingers
00:07:21 <Bike> kmc: the thing where you have a cellphone operable like a debit card, and it's in a lot of 3rd world countries
00:07:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: why don't you like hugs
00:07:32 <kmc> oh like M-Pesa?
00:07:40 <Sgeo> Can TVs be used as a monitor?
00:07:41 <kmc> how would OLPC integrate with that
00:07:42 <mnoqy> shachaf: it's a cultural thing
00:07:52 <mnoqy> i'm not in the Hugs Are a Normal Thing culture
00:07:55 <kmc> oh, well ihaven't heard of any integration
00:08:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: which culture are you in
00:08:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: have you considered switching
00:08:11 <mnoqy> and I'm Very Not In the Kisses Are a Normal Thing culture
00:08:17 <Bike> just wondering like... what are they for, and stuff
00:08:22 <shachaf> kmc: are you in the hugs are a normal thing culture
00:08:26 <Bike> beyond some kind of piagetian education
00:08:32 <kmc> Sgeo: most TVs have HDMI in, and most computers have HDMI output or DVI output (and DVI can be converted to HDMI with a simple cheap adapter)
00:08:45 <kmc> Sgeo: also the TV in my house has a VGA input, some others have DVI input too
00:09:15 <Sgeo> Well, my TV kind of sucks
00:09:20 <Sgeo> I should check though
00:09:21 <kmc> 10 years ago I had a video card with composite and component video out
00:09:30 <kmc> and uh, that multi-pin thing that was better than composite but not as good as component
00:09:31 <Sgeo> But then again, still probably better to get a server than a Raspberry PI
00:10:08 <kmc> shachaf: yes I am
00:10:20 <shachaf> kmc: can i hug you next time i see you
00:10:46 <Sgeo> I want to buy stuff
00:10:50 <shachaf> One time I was in a play and the director had to teach me how to hug properly for it.
00:11:08 <shachaf> Then again it was an unusual sort of hug.
00:11:21 <elliott> Sgeo: welcome to consumerism
00:11:32 <mnoqy> why do people want to buy things
00:11:38 <kmc> i guess i'm also in the platonic cuddling culture a bit
00:11:41 <kmc> my friends more so
00:11:45 <Bike> commercials + also food
00:11:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: what do you think about platonic cuddling
00:11:58 <shachaf> (that means cuddling with platonic solids i think)
00:11:59 <elliott> did plato ever cuddle anyone
00:12:17 <mnoqy> ive never seen platonic cuddling happen ever i dont think
00:12:20 <Bike> one of plato's dialogues is two guys arguing over who's more worthy of fucking a kid
00:12:33 <kmc> we had people piles in college
00:12:36 <mnoqy> cuddling seems like a more Intimate Affection thing
00:12:41 <mnoqy> is that like an orgy
00:12:47 <mnoqy> ps i dont know what an orgy is
00:12:51 <kmc> yes it's like an orgy except that everyone has their clothes on and there's no sex
00:13:09 <mnoqy> hm maybe it's more like football
00:13:15 <mnoqy> people make piles in football right
00:13:19 <elliott> like football execpt that everyone has their clothes on and there's no sex
00:13:21 <kmc> american football?
00:13:38 <shachaf> elliott: that's not very much like football at all hth
00:13:42 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rival_Lovers behold
00:13:47 <mnoqy> the problem with football is i dont know the real name for american football
00:13:56 <mnoqy> but i know that other football can be called soccer
00:14:04 <kmc> it's "american football" hth
00:14:14 <shachaf> the other one is "association football" hth
00:14:17 <Bike> i like that socrates walks in and is like "you know what this conversation needs? me acting like an asshole"
00:14:37 <kmc> "gridiron football" is a superset that includes american and canadian football
00:15:01 <elliott> i cant abide by anyone who calls football soccer, sorry
00:15:09 <mnoqy> is there any name with fewer letters and/or syllables
00:15:16 <Bike> a british person dies every time you call it 'soccer' just fyi
00:15:26 <Bike> http://www.theshiftage.com/bookSummary.asp well shit i'm so up for this
00:15:27 <mnoqy> this sounds like a lot of power for me to have
00:15:42 <shachaf> there's a name with the same number of letters hth
00:15:59 <kmc> the shit age
00:16:19 <mnoqy> Running Classic ASP Applications on IIS 7 and IIS 8
00:16:24 <mnoqy> im learning about this error
00:16:31 <Bike> yeah i can't get the actual page
00:16:35 <Bike> assuming it's a sign
00:16:53 <shachaf> mnoqy: maybe next time i'm in southern california i can stop by for a hug??
00:17:02 <mnoqy> shachaf: i dont think thatd fly
00:17:47 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "???"
00:18:45 <mnoqy> is it in california because thats where i am
00:19:06 <shachaf> it's next to san luis obispo
00:19:27 <mnoqy> i've heard of that place too
00:19:40 <mnoqy> i've heard of that place too!
00:19:50 <kmc> the transit system in san luis obispo is called SLO Transit
00:20:02 <kmc> "Due to Internet Explorer performance limitations only ten routes can be selected during a browsing session."
00:20:06 <mnoqy> how do they pronounce it
00:20:39 <mnoqy> shachaf: does california only have 3 places in it
00:20:48 <shachaf> mnoqy: no............there's also san francisco and east palo alto
00:21:01 <mnoqy> i've heard of sanfransis co!!
00:21:02 <kmc> and pasadena
00:21:08 <mnoqy> i think i've heard of pasadena
00:21:10 <shachaf> btw if the place you live in has a direction in its name it's probablbylybyly a bad place
00:21:12 <kmc> i lived there for 4 years
00:21:13 <mnoqy> may or may not have heard of palo alto
00:21:26 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh and there's silly valley
00:21:32 <mnoqy> i've heard of silly valley!
00:21:38 <kmc> shitty valley
00:21:51 <kmc> i think berkeley is a place too
00:21:57 <shachaf> kmc be nice to my valley..........................
00:22:14 <mnoqy> i've heard of berkeley
00:22:40 <shachaf> i was tempted to move there once
00:22:47 <shachaf> just because it was a nice place??
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00:52:49 <Bike> that's quite an ID
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00:57:34 <shachaf> Oh, it starts with a digit.
00:57:38 <Bike> are you a wizard elliott
00:58:23 <mnoqy> at least once i've gotten one of those funky names
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01:02:03 <kmc> the motion smoothing on modern TVs is super creepy
01:03:58 <kmc> usually eah
01:04:11 <kmc> it interpolates between frames
01:04:17 <kmc> up to like 120fps or something ridiculous
01:04:54 <shachaf> Also it was kind of rude of me to type their email address into IRC. :-(
01:05:23 <shachaf> I did it without thinking. What an odd name.
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01:12:35 <kmc> the thing is, we associate 24 fps (film) with higher production values than 29.97 fps (video)
01:12:44 <kmc> so it makes everything look cheap
01:13:31 <kmc> james cameron was also complaining about this, because you need high framerate for 3D movies
01:13:34 <Bike> it's hilarious
01:13:46 <kmc> i guess in Europe they don't have this problem ?!?
01:13:56 <kmc> what a country
01:14:00 <shachaf> have they invented moving pictures in europe yet
01:14:02 <mnoqy> smooth is nice but taking something and smoothening it is scary
01:14:19 <elliott> i watched the hobbit at 48 fps
01:14:31 <elliott> it seemed perfectly cinematic to me, i think the "24 fps = film" thing is overblown
01:14:47 <elliott> like there are lots of other things that differentiate a film from a soap or whatever
01:15:19 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Thehobbit1977cover.png this is the hobbit im familiar with
01:15:25 <mnoqy> Definitive Version
01:15:33 <kmc> is that the russian one
01:15:40 <mnoqy> it's the animated one
01:15:43 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit_(1985_film)
01:15:45 <Bike> I saw a first edition Hobbit in person once. so weird
01:15:57 <Bike> Oh shit, was this the one by the Wizards guy
01:15:59 <mnoqy> that's a pretty good picture
01:17:01 <elliott> i mean the frame rate was weird for a few minutes or whatever but i got used to it
01:17:50 <kmc> shachaf: do you know why
01:18:04 <shachaf> Experience suggests that it'll disappear in a few days.
01:18:06 <kmc> a friend of mine accidentally sprayed someone else with a bottle of histamine once
01:18:09 <kmc> it was bad
01:21:29 <kmc> today's dinner: kraft mac & cheese with homegrown phoenix oyster mushrooms
01:22:56 <kmc> kmc & cheese
01:23:08 <pikhq> Interesting combination.
01:26:46 <shachaf> Bike: I was going to watch the movie today -- it's in an hour -- but I think I'm too itchy to sit still for 2 hours.
01:27:34 <kmc> mushrooms fried in butter, with leeks (which were not homegrown :/)
01:29:57 <Bike> shachaf: understandable.
01:30:23 <kmc> shachaf: do you have bedbugs?
01:31:03 <shachaf> I don't know anything about bedbugs, though.
01:31:15 <kmc> do you have bites
01:31:33 <kmc> i had bedbugs when i lived in new jersey
01:31:41 <shachaf> Um, maybe? I've been scratching myself a lot, though.
01:31:53 <shachaf> When I get the itching, it's usually my entire body mostly at once.
01:32:01 <shachaf> Then it typically goes away after a few days.
01:32:07 <shachaf> So it doesn't sound too plausible.
01:32:20 <shachaf> But I guess I'll examine my bed.
01:32:28 <kmc> if you don't have bites then eh
01:32:45 <kmc> has some kind of doctor addressed this itching situation in the past
01:32:58 <shachaf> Perhaps I should go do that.
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01:36:24 <shachaf> kmc: should i try taking antihistamines.....
01:37:36 <kmc> i don't know
01:37:40 <kmc> probably won't hurt
01:37:58 <kmc> unless your itching condition is a symptom of something that would make antihistamines a bad idea?
01:40:46 <shachaf> this is medical advice right??
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01:50:17 <kmc> there should be a pokemon named testicool
01:51:48 <pikhq> Within Japanese Buddhism, Mara is some sort of penis tentacle monster.
01:52:48 <kmc> how about Tanuki
01:53:17 <pikhq> That could just about slip by.
01:53:30 <kmc> http://www.wtfjapanseriously.com/2010/01/tanuki-balls.html
01:53:32 <pikhq> Tanuki are perceived as fairly innocent folklore in Japan.
01:53:42 <pikhq> Even when, yes, swinging around their giant shape-shifting testicles.
01:54:05 <pikhq> Like, this is literally "kids movie" material.
01:54:29 <kmc> imo testicles are more hilarious than lewd
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01:54:55 <pikhq> What's *lewd* is that they were translated as "pouches" in the English release of Pom Poko.
01:56:38 <shachaf> 18:01:15 <shachaf> (::String) $ printf "%d" 5
01:56:38 <shachaf> 18:05:13 <kmc> shachaf, :O
01:56:38 <shachaf> 18:05:41 <kmc> map (:: Int) [2,3]
02:00:19 <shachaf> Hmm, it's possible that I like mustard now.
02:00:26 <shachaf> I used to really hate it but that was many years ago.
02:00:30 <shachaf> How do I find out whether I like it or not?
02:00:33 <kmc> the great thing about mustard is that there are so many kinds to choose from
02:00:43 <shachaf> I was about to ask whether there were different kinds.
02:00:48 <shachaf> Which kind should I try? How should I try it?
02:02:10 <shachaf> have you considered ""cereal"""
02:04:30 <kmc> elliott: eat that soylent thing, it was designed by a hacker news person and is made from laboratory reagents
02:04:45 <Bike> just drink ethanol
02:05:19 <kmc> shachaf: I really like the Trader Joe's Sweet and Hot Mustard
02:05:52 <kmc> fry a kiełbasa and some sauerkraut
02:05:55 <kmc> apply mustard
02:05:58 <kmc> shove into face
02:06:02 <kmc> maybe you are a vegetarian?
02:06:06 * kmc doesn't remember.
02:06:19 <elliott> i've never seen you use .s
02:07:07 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure kmc has used .s. But not .
02:07:43 <shachaf> hey kmc remember that person with the capitalization pattern we couldn't figure out
02:08:14 <kmc> "\"good\""
02:08:44 <kmc> i think the 'pattern' was 'random'
02:09:31 <Sgeo> My company picked up The Blaze as a channel
02:09:33 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-04-27.txt:05:48:23: <shubshub> I worked Hard on Numeric Batch Now to Mix and Match the translation Numbers
02:09:48 <kmc> hey I wonder if I could convince this Channel to adopt German Capitalization as some kind of Meme
02:10:03 <Bike> i believe that's '19th century capitalization'
02:10:11 <Bike> well, 18th more like
02:10:31 <kmc> yeah english carried this over
02:10:38 <kmc> and then we got rid of it because we don't give a fuck
02:10:59 <Bike> oh is that why it is
02:11:01 <Bike> that makes a lot of sense.
02:11:07 <kmc> but, prolly.
02:11:10 <shachaf> Bike: should i go see it............................
02:11:14 <kmc> shubshub, inventor of !!!Batch
02:11:24 <Bike> I thought you couldn't
02:11:40 <kmc> shachaf: zwanzig minuten?!?!?
02:11:47 <shachaf> I'm trying to make up my mind here!
02:13:26 <Bike> well don't if you'll just be miserable
02:14:10 <shachaf> Maybe I should go find a place with air conditioning.
02:18:54 <shachaf> 19:18 <cmccann> elliott: imo you do, hth. </shachaf>
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02:22:40 <shachaf> Bike: oh should i see _The Sting_
02:22:51 <Bike> possibly not right now.
02:23:00 <shachaf> TWIST: I've already seen it!
02:25:14 <elliott> oh wow, the syrian electronic army actually hacked the onion. i thought that was just... a joke made up for an onion article
02:25:43 <Bike> heh, i'm still not sure if they faked it
02:25:54 <Bike> of course the SEA isn't actually in syria iirc
02:26:11 <kmc> what if i'm too drunk to go to 7-Eleven
02:27:09 <elliott> (i read http://www.theonion.com/articles/we-were-going-to-take-over-the-onion-website-but-i,32327/)
02:27:44 <elliott> btw it's literally the most annoying thing to have to refresh onion articles and then press stop before the paywall overlay loads
02:27:47 <kmc> i think it wasn't faked, they had a serious-seeming writeup on the onion tech blog (!) about how they got phished
02:27:53 <kmc> but of course they joked about it after it happened
02:27:56 <Bike> they... have a tech blog?
02:28:12 <kmc> http://theonion.github.io/
02:28:26 <kmc> ok they have one post.
02:30:00 <elliott> At this point the editorial staff began publishing articles inspired by the attack. The second article, Syrian Electronic Army Has A Little Fun Before Inevitable Upcoming Deaths At Hands Of Rebels, angered the attacker who then began posting editorial emails on their Twitter account.
02:30:13 <elliott> okay it is pretty great that they were writing them while the account was actually being compromised rather than just in the aftermath
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02:37:45 <elliott> http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/onionmeme.png this is amazing
02:38:34 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/onion-twitter-password-changed-to-onionman77,32323/
02:39:50 <elliott> relevant: http://www.theonion.com/articles/hi-in-the-past-2-years-you-have-allowed-me-to-kill,31805/
02:40:17 <Bike> the onion's pro-interventionism kind of annoys me but the articles are still funny
02:42:02 <Sgeo> pikhq, that video, the guy has a Nexus One
02:52:21 <Sgeo> pikhq, ... so, video formats have been ruled by painful backwards-compatibility? Reminds me of the web.
03:01:58 <Sgeo> "good old-fashioned spite"
03:02:35 <Bike> a new forward-looking spite, celebrating craftsmanship
03:05:04 <Sgeo> Oh hey there's a transcript
03:05:08 <Sgeo> http://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/A_Digital_Media_Primer_For_Geeks
03:05:28 <Sgeo> "For a given unique subsampling, there are usually also several equivalent formats that consist of trivial channel order rearrangements or repackings, due either to convenience once-upon-a-time on some particular piece of hardware, or sometimes just good old-fashioned spite."
03:17:44 <kmc> we decide what goes inside your head
03:21:59 <kmc> <Sgeo> Reminds me of the web. <--- also of everything else humans have ever done
03:22:28 <Bike> pretty sure most of that's on the web now kmc!!
03:28:06 <Sgeo> help i seem to be watching school-house rock
03:28:22 <Bike> that is not a situation you need to get out of
03:30:05 <kmc> I'm an amendment-to-be, yes an amendment-to-be / And I'm hoping that they'll ratify me / There's a lot of flag-burners who have too much freedom / I want to make it legal for policemen to beat 'em
03:30:24 <Bike> was that the adult swim parody?
03:31:00 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KGmHsKsa-U
03:31:25 <kmc> ah this "ADHD" is FOX's ripoff of Adult Swim
03:31:34 <Sgeo> When I was a kid, I thought the word "Hallelujah" came from that schoolhouse rock video about interjections
03:31:48 <shachaf> kmc: I purchased some REDACTED Sweet and Hot Mustard.
03:31:49 <kmc> very subtle name
03:31:54 <Sgeo> So when a classmade said it I thought she too saw that
03:32:20 <kmc> the word "Hallelujah" was invented by leonard cohen; everyone knows that
03:32:20 <shachaf> how does it feel to influence real-world happenings through typing words into irc
03:32:26 <kmc> shachaf: i feel like a fucking god
03:32:37 <shachaf> i haven't tasted it yet though. that comes later
03:32:44 <kmc> are you a vegetarian?
03:32:55 <kmc> you will eat fungi?
03:33:03 <kmc> they're more similar to animals than to plants, i hear
03:33:18 <Bike> can vegatarians eat diatoms
03:33:26 <kmc> if i come to SF i can give you much oyster mushrooms
03:33:35 <shachaf> will you grow them in newspapers
03:33:42 <kmc> most likely
03:34:18 <Sgeo> I didn't see the "money" schoolhouse rock videos when I was a kid
03:34:41 <Sgeo> Just grammar, USA, ... numbers?, and ... a fourth, I forget which. Probably not the actual names
03:34:42 <Bike> can vegetarians eat newspapers
03:35:04 <kmc> Our president was dead to us, Hallelujah! / He takes his pills so he can kill / Praise the Bible
03:35:21 <shachaf> «Many of Mason’s charmingly humorous antics are well-documented. As Charlie Rose explained in his introduction of Mason before a TV interview with him in December, the CEO once hired a man to walk around the office in a ballerina outfit with no explanation just to see the reaction. Mason’s Twitter account includes a picture of him excitedly unwrapping a Nintendo Wii in what looks like his underwear, and his Groupon bio claims he ...
03:35:27 <shachaf> ... “spends most of his time writing his life coach training book, Unleash the Power Within the Power Within: Self Help For Self Helpers.”»
03:35:30 <Sgeo> science rock, I guess>
03:35:30 <shachaf> groupon sounds like a good place to work huh
03:35:56 <kmc> i assume they're at the "rip wires out of the wall and sell them for scrap" stage of the business cycle
03:36:02 <Sgeo> I'm still pissed that Dexterity Software died and was replaced by some self-help BS
03:36:18 <Bike> whenever i see groupon commercials i do a double take
03:36:22 <kmc> when I was tripping on synthetic hallucinogens at Coachella (yeah yeah) I started ranting about how Groupon's business model was unsustainable
03:36:29 <kmc> and some guy in a line in front of me got super into it
03:36:31 <kmc> maybe he was the CEO
03:36:34 <Bike> sounds like a hell of a trip
03:36:51 <shachaf> what kind of hallucinogens
03:36:59 <Sgeo> It's no longer legally possible to get a game that I liked
03:37:00 <Bike> uh synthetic ones
03:37:04 <kmc> i think it was 2C-E
03:37:09 <kmc> don't recall
03:37:14 <shachaf> also it would be a shame if the kmc drugs jokes eliminated the kmc drugs stories
03:37:34 -!- kmc has set topic: Galois Counter-Culture | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:37:35 <shachaf> maybe we should cut down on them
03:37:37 <Sgeo> I wonder how much a laptop only suitable for Win98 and older would cost
03:37:38 <shachaf> (the jokes, not the drugs)
03:37:47 <kmc> my friend took 2C-I and then tried to install Maple
03:38:05 <Bike> like... the CAS?
03:38:22 <shachaf> did he try to install it on pancakes
03:38:22 <Bike> i can't tell if your social circle is the most boring or best druggies ever
03:38:31 <kmc> he, but thanks
03:39:38 <Sgeo> There are people on ebay selling old laptops for $20 or so
03:39:53 <Sgeo> Don't know how legitimate those are
03:39:54 <shachaf> Maybe I should just switch to Finnish, which has gender-neutral third-person singular pronouns.
03:40:40 <kmc> In the middle of the holding out, nobody will be dropped out / Except fake gods whose faux pas are offsetting bets
03:45:08 <shachaf> I mentally assign a gender to everything, even inanimate objects.
03:45:22 <shachaf> Well -- don't "assign". Things just have genders.
03:45:32 <shachaf> I assume that comes from speaking Hebrew and that not everyone does it.
03:47:14 <Bike> well i don't. so there's one data point.
03:47:29 <kmc> i don't either, i think
03:48:41 <shachaf> It's actually not things but words, I guess.
03:48:50 <shachaf> For example "car" is female but "vehicle" is male.
03:49:37 <Sgeo> Why do people like CentOS for servers
03:49:38 <shachaf> I'm just going to pretend this is a form of synæsthesia.
03:50:13 <Bike> speaking of synthaesthesia, you know what's really weird to think about? bimodal bilingualism
03:50:17 <kmc> Sgeo: because red hat is stable and their kernel team is actually competent
03:50:20 <kmc> and probably other teams
03:52:00 <Sgeo> Should I use it if I get prgmr?
03:52:12 <kmc> cry havoc and let loose the blogs of war
03:52:23 <kmc> Sgeo: no because rpm sucks, hth
03:52:29 <Bike> i mean, can people sign and talk at the same time? i honestly don't know
03:58:43 <kmc> shachaf: so are you near a trader joe's then
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04:04:03 <shachaf> at the moment reasonably near
04:04:45 <kmc> one thing in favour of EPA
04:05:13 <shachaf> i am not very near home right now
04:07:10 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know the _The Third Wave_ thing was in Palo Alto?
04:08:32 <kmc> what's that thing
04:09:43 <shachaf> maybe it's more famous in .il
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04:13:40 <shachaf> so maybe both you and lexande will be in sf this summer
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05:03:46 <shachaf> There is a person outside falling asleep in his car.
05:04:06 <shachaf> Every time he falls asleep enough he presses on the steering wheel and the honk wakes him up.
05:04:30 <Bike> that's too cartoonish to be actually possible.
05:04:44 <shachaf> I saw it with my own eyes.
05:04:52 <shachaf> And heard it with my own ears, in particular.
05:05:22 <Bike> I'm laughing just picturing this.
05:25:53 <fizzie> Re sign and talk, the local TV news for hearing-impaired has the news announcers sign and at least mouth the words at the same time. (Someone else does the audible speaking of the broadcast.)
05:26:20 <Bike> next question, can they do two different things
06:03:55 <oklopol> i witnessed honking thing that last week
06:06:05 <oklopol> we were doing night watch (is this really how you say this in english?) at a company, and one guy kept dosing off
06:06:37 <oklopol> *-really since i have no idea
06:07:41 <oklopol> that sounds like we work at the company
06:07:52 <oklopol> i mean we were guarding it.
06:07:59 <oklopol> from like criminals and shit
06:08:18 <coppro> night shift is probably more idiomatic
06:15:34 <kmc> "night watch" makes sense if you are guarding it
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06:20:16 <pikhq> How the hell am I not even particularly sleepy.
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07:10:15 <kmc> i don't know how to prepare for this Mozillinterview
07:16:31 <shachaf> What sort of interview is it?
07:17:54 <kmc> first tech phone call, with one of the servo people
07:18:49 * shachaf doesn't know how to prepare for anyinterview, as such.
07:19:56 <kmc> for some interviews it pays to memorize stuff from CLRS ahead of time
07:20:03 <kmc> big tables of what algorithm has what big-O complexity
07:20:07 <kmc> i think that's kinda dumb
07:20:39 <kmc> when i interviewed at ye olde hedge funde, i brushed up on some C++ stuff the night before and that did help a bit
07:20:53 <Bike> obviously they should requireyou to present a novel complexity result
07:21:24 <kmc> another useful type of preparation is to think of questions you want to ask
07:21:39 <shachaf> That would indeed be useful.
07:22:16 <kmc> maybe i should do more of that
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10:36:36 <Taneb> The Eurovision final is coming up, isn't it?
10:42:16 <fizzie> I guess it's still "coming up".
10:42:50 <Taneb> I don't like Finland's song
10:42:59 <Taneb> Listening to Greece's now
10:43:26 <fizzie> I didn't like Finland's song either, but it made to the finals.
10:43:45 <fizzie> Was Greece's the "free booze" one?
10:44:41 <Taneb> Listening to the UK's
10:45:13 <fizzie> I haven't heard that, because your place is one of those "more equal than others" ones.
10:46:38 <Taneb> I think officially, we're one of the "Those guys who are actually paying for it" countries
10:46:56 <Taneb> But yeah, the UK generally sucks at Eurovision
10:47:56 <Taneb> Okay, that was... alright
10:48:04 <Taneb> I think Finland's was better
10:48:07 <Taneb> Now for the Netherlands
10:51:17 <Taneb> Okay, she's a good singer, but I found the song lacking
10:55:43 <fizzie> And it's just "paying more than the others"; everyone's doing some of it, I understand.
10:57:37 <fizzie> E.g. Turkey's not participating this year, and one of their cited reasons is the "big five" rule.
11:03:10 <Taneb> Estonia's entry seems pretty good
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12:12:38 <Jafet> Is chip's challenge turing complete?
12:18:58 <Koen_> Taneb: Okay, she's a good singer, but I found the song lacking
12:19:09 <Koen_> are you saying there wasn't a song?
12:19:24 <Koen_> and she was just moving her lips without any sound
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13:24:22 <Snowyowl> Are there any classes of non-Turing-complete languages in which a nontrivial self-interpreter is possible?
13:25:25 <nortti> bounded storage machine
13:28:22 <Snowyowl> the simulated copy would have access to less memory, though
13:28:43 <Snowyowl> you can't have an infinite tower of self-interpreting self-interpreters like you can in a Turing machine
13:31:18 <mroman_> What would be the most easiest to port compiler of a somewhat high level language?
13:31:59 <mroman_> porting to an other target architecture that is not exactly x86
13:32:13 <mroman_> and by that I mean make it generate code for that not exactly x86 platform
13:36:58 <Jafet> Use gcc, the gnu cross compiler
13:37:27 <mroman_> porting gcc is a little bit too much work
13:37:37 <mroman_> because it's actually writing a gcc backend
13:37:43 <Jafet> It's already been ported, so it would be about zero work
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14:06:04 <nortti> Snowyowl: what about push-down machine then?
14:07:16 <Snowyowl> Yes, quite possibly. I'm not sure my question was well-defined.
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16:02:33 <oerjan> <kmc> i'm finding out that you can't mess around with saliva <-- i'm pretty sure messes are pretty easy to produce with saliva fwiw
16:05:59 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott remember that thing about formal power series and types <-- are you referring to that thing about how equations work with types if they work with complex numbers? i don't remember where that was either but maybe it will jog elliott's memory.
16:06:47 <oerjan> well i vaguely think it was an arxiv link
16:07:10 <elliott> i thought he meant that blog post / paper it linked to yes
16:07:16 <elliott> but i didn't want to try and find it without confirmation
16:08:50 <oerjan> also, i vaguely recall asking if that worked with the 1+2+3+... = -1/12 result.
16:11:15 <oerjan> <Bike> isn't it pretty old? i mean there's that book "little eichmanns" <-- now i am imagining a book for classifying people according to which nazi person they resemble the most.
16:12:10 <oerjan> it'd also include classifications like quisling and petain (sp?)
16:14:36 <oerjan> metropolitan france is a weird term
16:15:02 <oerjan> (i was reminded by wp's petain article)
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16:17:25 <Taneb> Okay, I am actually making an Iron Man costume
16:18:46 <oerjan> i don't think he needs to stop unless he includes actual rockets hth
16:19:30 <oerjan> oh well, as long as you upload to youtube.
16:23:54 <oerjan> <elliott> not all digestive's have chocolates <-- you should write a tract about digestives so i'll finally learn what they are twh
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16:24:36 <elliott> oerjan: http://images1.mysupermarket.co.uk/Products_1000/11/011211.jpg?v=1 hope this helps
16:25:51 <oerjan> oh there's a norwegian wikipedia article maybe that will crack the code
16:26:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can you imagine all these people going through life without eating a _single digestive_
16:27:52 <oerjan> bah i was hoping to find a brand that i've actually tasted in norway.
16:28:17 <oerjan> also you ignored my awful pun you rascals.
16:28:28 <elliott> i think they don't really exist outside of the UK or something
16:28:51 <elliott> i am happy to come to trondheim and bring digestives
16:29:10 <oerjan> elliott: there's apparently two swedish brands linked in no.wp but no norwegian ones
16:29:34 <elliott> they probably aren't as good as british ones anyway
16:30:17 <elliott> i am also happy to bring cadbury flakes as previously discussed in #esoteric
16:33:49 <oerjan> <elliott> you kind of have to dunk it in milky tea for it to taste nice tho, regardless of whether you like milky tea or not <-- maybe someone can invent a machine that produces small amounts of milky tea for those who want digestives but cannot bear to drink tea
16:34:22 <elliott> i must note that by "milky tea" i mean "tea with a drop of milk in it"
16:35:08 <elliott> oerjan: you've had ginger nuts right... or at least some kind of ginger biscuit....
16:35:13 <oerjan> mind you i have nothing against tea myself, although i habitually drink coffee instead. i was just seeing a market.
16:35:55 <oerjan> elliott: i've had gingerbread (and made houses from it), does that count?
16:38:13 <oerjan> in fact i may or may not have had ginger nuts. it seems like norwegian christmas tradition calls certain bakery stuff "pepper" in which english speaking people would use "ginger", and i _have_ had peppernøtter.
16:39:00 <oerjan> pepperkakehus ~= gingerbread house
16:39:11 <elliott> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ginger+nut&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og
16:39:16 <elliott> here are some helpful pictures
16:40:44 <oerjan> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ginger+nut&aq=f&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&biw=1152&bih=635&sei=OV2WUfO4BY_6sgbvmYDYDw#um=1&hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=peppern%C3%B8tter&oq=peppern%C3%B8tter&gs_l=img.3...41281.48485.0.48938.20.15.4.1.1.0.63.767.15.15.0...0.0...1c.1.14.img._s97c-jpO58&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.Yms&fp=773a4c622afebc5a&biw=1152&bih=635
16:41:00 <oerjan> wtf is it doing with that url and why is yours shorter
16:42:22 <oerjan> oh it includes your search nested inside
16:43:04 <elliott> i cut off some of the crap from my url
16:43:15 <elliott> oerjan: that looks like roughly the same thing, yes
16:44:12 <oerjan> hm they should have some kind of "share this search" link
16:46:03 <oerjan> hm trying to recall... they might be slightly soft inside
16:48:45 <oerjan> small, hard, spices include cinnamon, pepper, ginger and star anise
16:49:23 <oerjan> crosswiki links with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepernoot
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16:51:10 <oerjan> "People mistakenly confuse kruidnoten with pepernoten." and the picture for the former fits better, as do the ingredients :P
16:51:31 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruidnoten
16:54:24 <elliott> kruidnoten look quite like ginger nuts, yes
16:54:37 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginger_nut has a section about scandinavian pepperkaker, "Cloves, cinnamon and cardamom are important ingredients of these, and the actual ginger taste is not prominent."
16:54:58 <elliott> so it's a bad ginger nut :P
16:55:07 <elliott> terrible picture for that article, also
16:56:31 * oerjan concludes his investigations.
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17:03:57 <boily> let's see what that can of unknown beverage tastes like...
17:04:53 <boily> no burning sensation, no abdominal cramps, no dizziness, and it's quite good. at least it's non-toxic.
17:06:44 <Gregor> Or the toxin is slow-acting.
17:07:19 <elliott> boily: what does it taste like
17:08:07 <boily> elliott: it's... uhm... except for the lychee flavour... eeeeh... I'd say something like non-descript.
17:10:14 <boily> on one side of the can: «Grass jelly drink // Boisson aux gelées d'herbes arome de lychee // Xưng xáo muì trái vải // Lychee flavour»
17:10:47 <boily> the other side has the chinese version, which is a little bit longer to type.
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17:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> for when you just can't stand your fruit not resembling eyeballs
17:15:18 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's a good first step in kicking the eyeball habit.
17:15:36 <Gregor> Eyeballs are delicious, but they're an ADDICTION.
17:15:59 <boily> `addquote <Gregor> Eyeballs are delicious, but they're an ADDICTION.
17:16:04 <HackEgo> 1036) <Gregor> Eyeballs are delicious, but they're an ADDICTION.
17:16:23 <boily> apparently, 仙草 (xiancao) is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesona_chinensis
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17:33:44 <kmc> <Jafet> Is chip's challenge turing complete?
17:33:47 <kmc> interesting question
17:36:55 <kmc> you would need an infinite starting configuration
17:39:17 <kmc> anyway i suspect so
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18:13:18 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
18:13:22 <shachaf> Sgeo: Thanks for doing your job!
18:20:06 <kmc> shachaf: http://hitcon.org/2005/ (Big5 apparently)
18:23:05 <oerjan> <mnoqy> shachaf: what does it mean to know someone <-- i suggest searching the bible for answers xo
18:23:37 <oerjan> mnoqy is not here, lucky guy
18:24:27 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:28:43 <elliott> "Hail the qe ↓ Han Dynasty invasion of the Han Dynasty invasion of prostitution during the Han Dynasty Han Dynasty invasion invasion invasion invasion of the Han Dynasty to the Han Dynasty Han Dynasty invasion of the Han Dynasty invasion of the Han Dynasty"
18:28:46 <elliott> "Han Dynasty invasion invasion invasion of the Han Dynasty to the Han Dynasty Han Dynasty invasion invasion of the Han Dynasty Han Dynasty invasion of the Han Dynasty ah piece Han Dynasty think weeping Han Dynasty sin deceive"
18:28:51 <elliott> Uncomfortable prostitution pig piglet piglets, pig piglet head head piglet piglets head piglet head piglet piglets "
18:28:54 <elliott> "Piglets piglets piglets head Tsai Tang licensing pig pig fat pig fat pig fat pig fat pig fat"
18:28:57 <elliott> "Pig licensing pig, pig, pig fat, pig fat, fat pig fat fat pig brand pig goose of divination deceive uncomfortable pig card"
18:29:00 <elliott> "Pig fat pig fat, pig fat pig, pig fat, pig fat pig brand, the fat bundle scare uncomfortable pig fat pig fat"
18:29:03 <elliott> "Pig fat, pig fat, pig fat, pig fat the cover deceive uncomfortable pig brand pig fat pig fat pig fat pig love"
18:29:06 <elliott> "Pig fat, fat group scare uncomfortable, pig, pig, pig fat, fat pig fat pig brand pig fat pig fat pig fat"
18:29:09 <elliott> "Pig fat the pig the fat silk scare uncomfortable pig brand pig fat pig fat pig fat pig fat pig fat pig expensive"
18:29:12 <elliott> "Magic magic pig pig pill,, Ah Zhu Tousan, Ah pig, pig Zhutou San pig goose Zhutou San pig-headed pig"
18:29:15 <elliott> "Pig magic magic pig piglet piglets head piglet piglets piglets piglets, pig piglet head the head."
18:29:18 <elliott> "Pig pig will be the pig pig pig pig pig will pig will the pig pig will"
18:29:20 <elliott> "Pig pig pig will the pig brother Zhu Tousan of pig pill pig pig pig on pig will
18:29:23 <elliott> "The pig Ah pig, a pig pig pig pig pig pig pig pig"
18:29:26 <elliott> "Pig pig constriction scare uncomfortable pig pig pig pig on the Zhu Tousan pig piano pig tumor
18:29:29 <elliott> "Pig tumor pig tumor the mixed pig pig chaos";
18:35:40 <oerjan> <Bike> a british person dies every time you call it 'soccer' just fyi <-- wait why have i not heard of this enormous british death toll before
18:36:26 <Taneb> oerjan, Glasgow's in Britain.
18:36:34 <Taneb> Most of the deaths are there
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18:37:52 <oerjan> elliott: is that a poem, or is it a gross mistranslation from an original chinese text in which every syllable is pronounced "shi" ?
18:38:09 <elliott> oerjan: you would have to ask google and kmc
18:38:15 <oerjan> well i guess the latter is also a poem
18:38:23 <Bike_> what, the lion eating poet in the stone den?
18:38:49 <oerjan> Bike_: btw you need to smack me hth
18:38:57 * Bike_ lights oerjan on fire
18:39:05 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:39:23 <oerjan> whew, it's hot in here
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18:41:15 <oklopol> i wondered about the same as oerjan
18:42:52 <Koen_> that's what shi said
18:53:11 <Bike> well the lion eating poet in the stone den isn't about pigs
18:53:34 <Bike> what elliott quoted is presumably shellcode developed under the constraint of looking vaguely like English text to fool firewalls
18:53:44 <elliott> oh my god kmc literally linked
18:53:50 <elliott> a few lines above what i said
18:54:05 <elliott> you weren't there for what i pasted either..........................
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19:00:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> who is this person <-- shacka when the walls fell hth
19:05:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:08:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> 18:01:15 <shachaf> (::String) $ printf "%d" 5 <-- i remember suggesting that syntax once.
19:09:22 <shachaf> oerjan: I remember suggesting it multiple times!
19:09:25 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:09:42 <oerjan> memory, such a wonderful thing!
19:09:55 <Bike> > printf "%d" 5
19:09:56 <oerjan> however unlike me, you know how to patch ghc right?
19:10:02 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
19:10:15 <Bike> > asTypeOf "hi" (printf "%d" 5)
19:10:35 <oerjan> wait have you actually got it in...
19:10:44 <oerjan> Bike: the point is not to be verbose hth
19:11:14 <Bike> > length "(::String) $ printf \"%d\""
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19:29:36 <oerjan> <fizzie> Re sign and talk, the local TV news for hearing-impaired has the news announcers sign and at least mouth the words at the same time. (Someone else does the audible speaking of the broadcast.) <-- i vaguely thought mouth movements was sometimes a part of sign language
19:34:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:38:20 <oerjan> `learn Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing.
19:38:58 <oerjan> Jafet: DOES THAT HELP HTH
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19:52:36 <Taneb> What's that way to embed Javascript in the URL
20:00:49 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic).
20:03:05 <Taneb> So when the page is loaded the Javascript in the URL is executed
20:03:21 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:04:21 <FireFly> Well there's the javascript: pseudo-protocol, but apart from that it isn't possible
20:04:43 <FireFly> without a script included on the page that inspects the URL and eval()s part of it
20:05:45 <Taneb> Why did I think there was a way
20:06:02 <Taneb> Do I keep dreaming about going on the internet and seeing JavaScript in a page?
20:06:52 <Taneb> Or in a URL, rather?
20:07:30 <FireFly> Might've been javascript: URLs
20:07:48 <FireFly> but I'm not sure if those are specced actually
20:08:31 <Lumpio-> data:text/html;base64,PHNjcmlwdD5hbGVydCgiaGkhIik7PC9zY3JpcHQ+
20:09:28 <kmc> also old IE would let you do things like about:<script>while(1){window.open(document.src)}</script>
20:10:23 <Taneb> kmc, that may have been what I was thinking about
20:10:37 <shachaf> `run echo 'HQ9+' | base64 -d | xxd
20:11:09 <Taneb> oerjan, I preferred Monday's
20:11:13 <elliott> wow even google's doing it
20:11:14 <elliott> Cookies help us deliver our services. By using our services, you agree to our use of cookies.
20:11:14 <FireFly> \x1D is *almost* printable :<
20:11:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's actually a new day in Freefall
20:11:38 <Taneb> shachaf, Monday's Freefall
20:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> didn't most of them happen over a disproportionately short period of rl time
20:12:30 <oerjan> hm i think the first panel of wednesday's comic has been edited since i saw it
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20:23:46 <kmc> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rob-ford-crackstarter stupid future
20:28:45 <elliott> We are raising the money to purchase the video and publish it so the citizens of Toronto can watch a startlingly clear video of their mayor smoking crack.
20:28:46 <Taneb> What is "formal methods"
20:29:23 <shachaf> techniques for preserving biological specimens hth
20:29:44 <shachaf> Bike: Do you have /hilight biolog?
20:30:05 <Bike> no, i just happened to get back from a farming adventure
20:30:30 <kmc> Taneb: i mainly hear it used to refer to verifying the correctness of code using theorem provers and model checkers and the like
20:30:50 <kmc> "formal" as opposed to the more usual methods of "do random shit and see if it breaks"
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20:30:54 <kmc> Bike: what were you farming?
20:31:04 <shachaf> also used as a disinfectant, apparently
20:31:06 <Bike> just moved their pen
20:31:14 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
20:31:39 <Bike> they're like little stupid people that you can play with and sometimes eat, as they say
20:31:58 <shachaf> don't play with your food :(
20:32:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://home.comcast.net/~ccdesan/Freefall/Freefall_Backstory.html starts with a day-comic mapping (although out of date)
20:32:32 <elliott> Bike: you're such a biologist
20:33:01 <Bike> yeah i don't actually play with chickens, i just chase them around
20:33:12 <Bike> stupid things don't know i'm just moving out of the apocalyptic shithole they've made for themselves
20:33:39 <shachaf> THE JOKE WAS FORMALDEHYDE / FORMALIN
20:34:08 <kmc> imo farm mushromos
20:34:11 <kmc> mushrooms too
20:34:24 <Bike> maybe once i get my own place
20:34:33 <Bike> i'll turn the apartment building into a fungal hell just like in my japanese animes
20:35:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i believe we are currently just starting another saturday, so it might be the 24th day
20:35:30 <Taneb> Bike, I prefer French animes
20:35:43 <Bike> well, so do i, but there's lesso f them
20:35:56 <Bike> you've seen the time masters, right? that's what i'm envisioning here
20:36:41 <Taneb> (France was the first country other than Japan that I have heard of making anime-esque animation
20:36:46 <Bike> i guess kmc doesn't mean hallucinogens though
20:37:03 <Bike> Taneb: Les Maîtres du temps is a french animated film.
20:37:06 <Bike> pretty good imo
20:37:25 <Bike> anyway all mœbius all the time that's my jam
20:37:36 <oerjan> or wait. maybe it's friday, the big event happened at midnight.
20:37:43 <Taneb> Bike, I had Code Lyoki in mind. I think that's French Anime
20:37:53 <Bike> code lyoko is way more anime yeah
20:38:18 <Bike> BUT something something franco-belgian comicry.
20:38:38 <Taneb> I enjoy Franco-Belgian comicry
20:38:48 <Bike> who doesn't? (the answer is jerks)
20:39:02 <Taneb> I have a formidable Asterix collection, and a fair few Tintins
20:40:14 <Bike> alas i have no money for comixxx
20:40:30 <Bike> hm is hould pirate a mobius artbook
20:41:20 <Bike> kmc: you just farm stuff in an apartment, right?
20:41:41 <kmc> yeah i didn't mean specifically psychedelic mushrooms, although the techniques are more or less the same
20:41:56 <kmc> my gf does most of the work
20:42:35 <elliott> pretty sure all mushrooms are illegal Just Say No
20:42:53 <Bike> i would have to put my yard under arrest
20:43:00 <Bike> anyway i don't think i've even had mushrooms by themselves ever
20:43:12 <Bike> i'd have to learn to cook them, hrm
20:43:13 <Taneb> I had a steak and mushroom sandwich for lunch today
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20:43:32 <kmc> her method is basically: cultivate spores or liquid culture on petri dishes; transfer the least contaminated bits to other petri dishes; once you have a clean culture, transfer it to sterilized grain in mason jars (do this in a still-air box), and once the jars are fully colonized you mix the grain in with some bulk substrate like sawdust or shredded newspaper
20:43:38 <kmc> i'm leaving out some details
20:43:45 <Bike> petri dish farming huh
20:43:54 <Taneb> #living life on the edge #yolo #thug lyfe
20:43:55 <kmc> mushroom cultivation is all about sterile technique
20:44:04 <Bike> how... biological **glances at elliott**
20:44:08 <kmc> Bike: what mushrooms grow in your yard?
20:44:30 <Bike> i dunno, just a lot? i'm surrounded by woods here, life is just sort of around
20:44:31 <kmc> a simple and delicious thing to do with many edible mushrooms is, chop them up, fry them in butter, add them to pasta or such
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20:45:20 <Bike> basically picture me as saint francis, except playing angry birds on his phone
20:45:27 <kmc> Bike: you can post info to http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/3
20:45:33 <kmc> and people will ID them
20:45:43 <Bike> maybe i'll take some photos
20:45:50 <kmc> a spore print is very useful
20:46:08 <Bike> "An overview on how to find Psilocybin Mushrooms. " i think elliott might be on to something here
20:46:12 <Bike> what's a spore print?
20:46:18 <Bike> like get some spores on a platter?
20:46:55 <kmc> pick a cap, put it gills-down on some aluminum foil, put a few drops of water on top of the cap to keep it moist, and put a jar or cup over that
20:47:01 <fizzie> I seem to have joined ##shrooms by accident.
20:47:11 <fizzie> fungot: You sound like a guy who knows about mushrooms.
20:47:12 <fungot> fizzie: if any of the deal that is an option of " truing up not confirming because of the last few years of the over the top it all.
20:47:19 <kmc> in a day or so you'll see a finee powder of spores deposited on the foil
20:47:32 <kmc> the color of the spores is an important characteristic for identifying the species
20:47:41 <kmc> and also, you can keep those spores long-term and use them to grow new mushrooms
20:47:43 * Bike knows nothing about life despite supposedly being a biologist
20:49:07 <Bike> there's probably just a "Elliott-Spooky Life of the Northwest" book i can pick up somewhere though.
20:49:47 <FireFly> I thought you were a bikeologist
20:50:22 <kmc> did you know there was a new species of psychedelic mushroom discovered in Golden Gate Park in like 2011
20:50:55 <Bike> when you say "new" to you mean at all or was it natives going "yeah you missed a few, dumbasses"
20:51:07 <kmc> don't remember exactly
20:51:11 <elliott> i forget, psychedelic mushrooms *are* illegal right
20:51:21 <kmc> i think it was more like someone definitively decided that it's a new species rather than a subspecies
20:51:26 <kmc> by whatever criteria they use
20:51:26 <Bike> in the US everything fun is illegal
20:51:31 <kmc> elliott: in most jurisdictions, yeah
20:51:50 <kmc> they used to be quasi-legal in .nl but I think no longer :/
20:51:54 <elliott> is there any rationale at all
20:51:54 <Bike> there are exceptions for some religious ceremonies
20:52:13 <kmc> when I was in Amsterdam in 2007 i bought fresh psilocybe mushrooms in a store
20:52:15 <elliott> (s/rationale/rationalisation/)
20:52:45 <kmc> i think the courts decided that fresh mushrooms didn't count as a preparation of a drug, since they weren't prepared and there was no way to know exactly what the dose is
20:52:49 <kmc> some weird justification like that
20:52:57 <kmc> elliott: uh the rationale is DRUGS ARE BAD
20:53:37 <kmc> in a puritan society like America, anything that produces physical pleasure is seen with great suspicion
20:53:53 <kmc> especially if it can't be easily controlled by the hierarchical structures of society
20:54:14 <kmc> that's why it's also so important for the government and the church to regulate what constitutes marriage (i.e. legitimate sexual intimacy)
20:54:36 <Bike> didn't texas have sodomy laws on the books until like the 80s
20:55:02 <kmc> the last sodomy laws were struck down in 2003 by the supreme court
20:55:05 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
20:55:12 <Bike> "The toxicity of psilocybin is low. In rats, the median lethal dose (LD50) when administered orally is 280 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg), approximately one and a half times that of caffeine" haha beautiful.
20:56:10 <kmc> anyway magic mushrooms are extra dangerous because not only do they provide physical pleasure but they provide dangerous ideas about peaceful coexistence and non-hierarchical spiritual experience and stuff like that
20:56:20 <olsner> Bike: that doesn't say anything about the lethal dose for humans... or for society!
20:56:23 <Bike> «A concurring opinion by Chief Justice Warren E. Burger cited the "ancient roots" of prohibitions against homosexual sex, quoting William Blackstone's description of homosexual sex as an "infamous crime against nature", worse than rape, and "a crime not fit to be named." » 1986........
20:56:57 <kmc> (i'm definitely stretching this rationale though because the USA was founded by Protestants who weren't big on centralized religion...)
20:58:02 <kmc> right so psilocybin was banned in the USA in 1965
20:58:42 <Bike> the reationale being "it's hallucinogenic"
20:58:43 <kmc> so it was probably a move to target the emerging counterculture
20:59:13 <Bike> «The Florida Supreme Court in 1978 ruled that possession of wild psilocybin mushrooms is not illegal;[37] however, whether knowingly gathering wild psilocybin mushrooms for later use is illegal was not addressed in the decision.[38]» wat
20:59:45 <kmc> so we might say that magic mushrooms are illegal because they were used by people who protested against war and institutional racism
21:00:04 <kmc> much as marijuana was banned decades earlier to stick it to the mexicans and the black jazz musicians
21:00:21 <kmc> LSD was banned in 1970
21:00:28 <kmc> before that you could order free samples from Sandoz
21:01:22 <Bike> «Justice of the Peace Mike Parrott found them guilty and imposed a $100 fine and court costs of $41.25 on each defendant. When the defense attorneys realized that the fine was below the minimum required to permit them to appeal the convictions, they asked the judge to impose a higher penalty. Parrott, well aware that the attorneys intended to use the case to raise a constitutional challenge, increased it to $125 with the agreement of the pros
21:01:45 <kmc> the shroomery forums also do plant identification but it's mostly "i found this cactus at walmart, will it get me high"
21:02:24 <elliott> Bike: agreement of the pros
21:02:37 <kmc> also some people will buy any plant that says "salvia" on the label
21:02:38 <Bike> ecutor» loooool
21:02:47 <Bike> (that's the case that got sodomy laws unconstitutional)
21:02:56 <Bike> kmc: salvia boringorum
21:03:30 <Bike> "what do you mean, different species in the same genus have different effects"
21:03:44 <kmc> also salvia divinorum is really hard to cultivate anyway
21:03:57 <elliott> Taneb: does your hot tap ever smell funny when it's on
21:04:13 <elliott> kmc: wait is it called divinorum because, like, divine
21:04:18 <elliott> Taneb: just the hot tap though?
21:04:31 <kmc> elliott: "Diviner's sage"
21:04:39 <Taneb> We're right next to the sewage treatment place, though
21:04:46 <kmc> used by indigenous people in mexico for thousands of years
21:05:28 <kmc> but the effect of chewing on raw leaves is rather milder than the effect of concentrating the active ingredient 40x and then vaporizing it with a paint-stripper heat gun and hitting it out of a huge bong
21:06:13 <kmc> also salvinorin is a really strange drug, not just in terms of effects but also chemically and pharmacologically
21:06:21 <kmc> it contains no nitrogen
21:06:34 <kmc> and there's basically nothing else analogous that grows naturally
21:07:20 <kmc> or even any other popular synthetic hallucinogen that targets the same receptor system
21:07:26 <kmc> only very obscure research chemicals
21:09:44 <kmc> quite right
21:09:53 -!- dessos has left.
21:10:31 <elliott> i think we alienated dessos
21:10:35 <Taneb> You know Heroin was originally used to cure Morphine addictions?
21:10:53 <Taneb> It... technically worked.
21:11:25 <kmc> http://www.bonkersinstitute.org/medshow/bayerheroin1901.html http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/Bayer-heroin.jpg
21:11:30 <kmc> also a cough suppresant
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21:18:42 <elliott> kmc: hi here's what's going on in #haskell represented by a single quote "Hi, I'm sorry for interrupting this interesting discussion about tabs vs. spaces (I'm glad somebody finally talks about it!)"
21:18:49 <elliott> thought you should be kept updated
21:20:46 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/vOakVSj.jpg
21:23:46 <olsner> thanks, that tells me all I need to know
21:24:09 <shachaf> no charge for that @google
21:24:43 <Bike> olsner: +q is quiet
21:25:48 <elliott> kmc: and also ops deopping other ops so that their +qs of the ops work
21:26:29 <olsner> so all the non-ops are discussing whitespace and the ops aren't doing anything useful either?
21:28:39 <FireFly> well if it was #whitespace it'd be meaningful discussion!
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21:34:21 <elliott> olsner: the ops were discussing whitespace too
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22:08:15 <Koen_> don't fuck with my brain like that fizzie :(
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22:30:18 <Koen_> that could be the title of a chinese strategy board game FireFly
22:30:32 <Koen_> well either a strategy board game or a porn movie, I don't know
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23:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i can only included that "Guy Whom Randall Monroe Is Better Than" is now a standard xkcd cast member
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23:54:12 <mnoqy> did top hat man kill a child
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00:00:56 <kmc> yeah I am somewhat conflicted about these strips
00:01:51 <kmc> beating up strawmen is kind of annoying
00:02:01 <nooodl> that xkcd is so awful...
00:02:10 <kmc> especially because it's usually in a contrived situation with unrealistic dialogue because xkcd
00:02:29 <kmc> but I think some of the best xkcd strips are the ones that poke fun at the tropes of nerd culture
00:02:52 <kmc> this is a crappy example yes
00:03:31 <Bike> well nerds don't exist so by implication any cultural thing is a nerd cultural thing
00:03:34 <kmc> see also the alt text
00:03:37 <nooodl> the recent footnotes one was very "classic xkcd" imo, it was cute
00:03:38 <kmc> where rm admits that he did this as a kid
00:03:46 <kmc> but also misunderstands information theory i think
00:04:17 <copumpkin> at least he takes bitcoin donations
00:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> he's used the same character (read: hairstyle) before, and it has generally been for contemptible stramwn
00:04:23 <kmc> lol really
00:04:34 <copumpkin> yeah, it's right on the front page
00:04:37 <nooodl> maybe this guy should just write what-if more and do comics less
00:05:13 <Bike> kmc: well, 'interesting' is interestingly hard to define, in information theory
00:05:30 <kmc> nooodl: yeah
00:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> there was a strip about pickup artists with this guy which would have been shit but relevant if it had come out a good few years before it did
00:05:40 <Bike> since obviously he's right that random sequences have high (infinite) kolmogorov complexity, but such sequences are 'boring'
00:05:42 <kmc> people have been suggesting that since before what-if existed
00:05:55 <kmc> Bike: yeah. i have heard of quantifying "Bayesian surprise"
00:06:25 <kmc> i think RM finds some personal satisfaction in releasing 3 comics a week, no matter how bad
00:06:32 <kmc> even in the middle of personal crisis
00:06:38 <kmc> i can't really begrudge him that
00:06:50 <kmc> but that doesn't mean i'm not going to make fun of the result when it sucks
00:07:16 <Bike> bayes and kolmogorov is interesting, you know that bayesion prior distribution that's in a sense "perfect"-ly bias-free, but uncomputable?
00:07:24 <kmc> i've heard that
00:07:27 <kmc> don't really understand that
00:07:44 <Bike> i'm not sure anyone but solomonoff really does
00:07:52 <kmc> i think xkcd has almost never missed an update and has been running for almost 8 years
00:07:56 <Bike> there was that AIXI thing a while back related to it and AI, it seemed a bit dorky but oh well
00:08:01 <kmc> i can see wanting to keep the streak alive
00:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ALERT hazardous concentrations of the word 'Bayesian' detected
00:08:30 <kmc> #esoteric is not a phyg!
00:08:39 <Bike> i'm actually more of a frequentist :D but that doesn't mean i don't like good probability research
00:08:43 <Bike> what the fuck is a phyg
00:08:48 <kmc> `rot13 phyg
00:09:18 <Bike> anyway i have a book on kolmogorov that goes into uses for bayesian inference and stuff
00:09:31 <kmc> it's the word that the Singularity Institute^W^WMachine Intelligence Research Institute people use to talk about whether they're a cult without giving googlejuice to "singularity institute cult"
00:09:37 <kmc> and I think LWers as well
00:09:46 <Bike> there's some neat bits about reconstructing phylogenetic relationships based on approximations of kolmogorov complexity (that approximation being gzip)
00:09:48 <kmc> (SingInst sold the name "Singularity" to someone else)
00:09:51 <Bike> but i understand about 8% of the book
00:10:04 <kmc> gzip: best esolang?
00:10:31 <Bike> it's cool that just whatever practical compression algorithm can be used like that, i think
00:10:45 <kmc> Bike: when i was an undergrad I did some research into quantifying complexity in the cell lineage tree of C. elegans
00:10:48 <kmc> didn't really go anywhere
00:11:02 <Bike> c elegans is the best imo
00:11:14 <kmc> basically trying to make a small automaton which will describe the cell division pattern
00:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember way back when i read dmm's list of esoteric things i thought his tinyurl compression algorithm was amazing
00:11:38 <Bike> kmc: oh shit, developmental makes it like 90% craczier
00:11:41 <kmc> copumpkin: do not want
00:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> c. difficile is harmless with healthy immune systems isn't it
00:12:31 <Bike> oh huh, c difficile actually exists
00:12:33 <Bike> not that it's a nematode
00:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> also: i am saying that in my head as 'diffickilee' with all the i's short
00:13:00 <Bike> "causes severe diarrhea and other intestinal disease when competing bacteria in the gut flora have been wiped out by antibiotics"
00:13:20 <kmc> i'll stick with my friends S. cerevisiae and L. sanfranciscensis
00:13:49 <Sgeo> I should read about gzip
00:13:55 <Sgeo> And machines and pipes
00:14:02 <kmc> Sgeo: your rapper name can be G-Zip
00:14:12 <kmc> is 'machines' another haskell library
00:14:48 <kmc> what's it do
00:15:09 <Sgeo> An edwardk library that I think has similar goals to the pipes/conduits/blah except... hmm
00:15:11 <kmc> shachaf: oh, I should add Rust to my short list of languages where objects (rather than just references to objects) are first-class values
00:15:22 <Sgeo> It defines a monad for creating a structure that gets compiled into something else
00:15:23 <Bike> so i just found out my laptop has numlock, and spent ten seconds figuring out how to disable it
00:15:29 <Bike> anyway http://www.bogleech.com/comics/comic7-barnacle.htm
00:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> why does edwardk give all his libraries dumb non-categorical names
00:17:27 -!- augur has joined.
00:17:44 <Sgeo> DOCTOR WHO SEASON FINALE
00:17:47 <Bike> tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow
00:18:00 <kmc> wibbly wobbly timey wimey
00:18:44 <Sgeo> I'll do that when I stop reading Homestuck. Voluntarily, I mean.
00:18:45 <Bike> farscape season finale tomorrow!! or at least you can watch it then
00:18:59 <elliott> the homestuck-doctor who link
00:19:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, also, should I be watching Farscape or finishing DS9?
00:19:12 <Sgeo> I know you want me to both
00:19:27 <kmc> the series finale of The Office (US) was yesterday
00:19:28 <Bike> tv shows are important
00:19:46 <Sgeo> I don't remember where I stopped
00:20:02 <Bike> you're gonna give phantom an aneurysm!
00:20:28 <kmc> shachaf: Rust has several, exciting kinds of pointer
00:20:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, no, but I remember Garak *spoilers* and Sisko feeling guilty
00:21:14 <Sgeo> Just checked: In the Pale Moonlight is season 6. I'm partly into season 7
00:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW COULD YOU STOP AFTER WATCHING IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT
00:22:36 <Sgeo> Because attempting to watch TV for 32 hours straight isn't considered healthy?
00:24:31 <pikhq> Staying up 36 hours is unhealthy but that doesn't stop my body from keeping me awake for that long!
00:26:03 <kmc> owned boxes, managed boxes, and borrowed pointers
00:26:26 <kmc> and maybe other stuff
00:28:03 <Sgeo> kmc, something to do with concurrency?
00:28:11 <Sgeo> As in, ownership
00:28:33 <shachaf> ownership is a much more general concept than concurrency
00:28:59 <elliott> ownership is a much more general concept than currency
00:29:11 <Sgeo> But I think Rust's concurrency mechanism may use a concept of 'ownership' for different ... actor things, I guess? I don't know, I only half-remember reading Rust docs a long time ago
00:29:19 <kmc> Sgeo: they're sort of like std::unique_ptr I guess
00:29:42 <kmc> an owned box is allocated in the heap and is owned by exactly one variable (or structure field)
00:29:49 <Bike> you some kind of primitivist elliott!!!
00:29:58 <kmc> and so it can be deleted deterministically when that thing goes out of scope
00:30:10 <Sgeo> btw this website is the best ever
00:30:12 <Sgeo> http://143.228.193.in-addr.arpa/
00:30:26 <kmc> and yeah, I think the concurrent message passing stuff involves transfering ownership of these
00:30:28 <Sgeo> Well, the fact that that domain is pointing to a website
00:30:36 <kmc> Sgeo: every IPv4 address has such a name
00:30:44 <kmc> er, but you only have 3 octets there
00:30:46 <kmc> so mebbe not
00:31:46 <kmc> and managed boxes are garbage collected but can't be transferred between threads
00:31:47 * Sgeo wonders what other things in in-addr.arpa have records other than the reverse DNS one
00:31:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:31:54 <kmc> which means threads can GC independently
00:32:01 <kmc> this is my understanding after 5 min of reading
00:33:52 <Bike> elliott: how modern!
00:34:01 <Bike> wait rust has gc? huh
00:34:55 <Sgeo> I think you need objects to be explicit about needing to be GCed
00:35:07 <Sgeo> Before the sort of things that require GC are allowed
00:35:11 <Sgeo> Or was that an older version
00:35:24 <kmc> managed boxes are subject to GC
00:35:45 <kmc> Rust does the nice Haskell thing where immutable values are distinguished from variables and boxes (which may be mutable or not)
00:35:55 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:36:01 <kmc> i don't understand all of the mutability rules yet
00:36:24 <kmc> shachaf: the Servo dev I talked to today said that there are supposed to be fewer breaking changes in Rust going forward, and that yes there have been some nightmares recently
00:36:28 <Sgeo> Clojure does it too. Or would except for the whole Java compatibility thing
00:36:30 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, but only a subset of Rust objects are GC'd.
00:36:33 <kmc> so maybe it's a good time to learn Rust
00:37:17 <shachaf> kmc: I was going to use Rust for something once but all the breaking changes discouraged me.
00:37:20 <kmc> analogously there are also managed closures
00:37:34 <shachaf> So maybe I should use it now!
00:37:37 <kmc> the default kind of closure is allocated on the stack, and so is no good for returning functions
00:37:45 <elliott> Rust's stdlib seems kind of unusable.
00:37:49 <elliott> that's what's kept me from playing with it.
00:38:15 <Sgeo> Does Rust work on Windows?
00:38:28 <Sgeo> ..I'm not even running Windows right now, but I still want to know
00:38:49 <kmc> a working browser in Rust would itself be cool, but it's also cool because it will push rust and its stdlib to become more polished
00:39:08 <elliott> I thought the plan was just to build a rendering engine for now anyway
00:39:32 <kmc> they're using Spidermonkey for JS, and a bunch of other external libraries
00:39:37 <Sgeo> What does Rust do better than Haskell?
00:39:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: Act as a migration path for imperative coders? :P
00:39:56 <kmc> Sgeo: precise control over how objects are allocated
00:40:08 <kmc> Haskell programs heap-allocate everything and garbage collect all the time
00:40:27 <kmc> when you compile and run a Haskell program with GHC default settings, it's not uncommon to see that 90% of your time is spent in the garbage collector
00:40:54 <elliott> well that's a bit unfair :P
00:41:01 <kmc> Rust is a systems language in the vein of C++, except with nice modern language features, and actually memory-safe rather than just sort of hinting towards a style which is memory safe
00:41:01 <elliott> or rather just maybe misleading
00:41:08 <Sgeo> "unrecoverable unwinding with task isolation"
00:41:15 <kmc> so I think what pikhq said is unfair even though probably a joke
00:41:17 <Sgeo> I want a statically-typed language with recovering
00:41:17 <pikhq> And designed rather than accumulated.
00:41:25 <Bike> does it have.................. algebraic types
00:41:29 <pikhq> kmc: It was a joke.
00:41:32 <Sgeo> Bike, iirc yes
00:41:55 <Sgeo> I may be wrong though
00:42:02 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial.html#control-structures
00:42:37 <kmc> pikhq: I also disagree that C++ was "accumulated"
00:42:40 <pikhq> It's a fairly interesting language.
00:42:41 <Sgeo> Does it have Scheme-style macros? (I know it has some sort of syntactic ... thingy)
00:42:44 <kmc> the parts of C++ do fit together pretty well
00:43:00 <kmc> many people do not understand this because they don't know enough C++
00:43:07 <pikhq> kmc: Right, this is misleading. It's designed *wrong*, rather than being literally haphazard.
00:43:27 <kmc> C++ has an extremely awkward set of design goals
00:43:33 <kmc> I think what they produced is not so bad given these goals
00:43:41 <kmc> certainly they made some mistakes
00:43:43 <pikhq> But it ends up looking like a sort of mishmash, mostly because it is intended to have a large common subset with C.
00:43:51 <kmc> but I blame it on the goals more than the execution
00:44:00 <kmc> and yes being a ~superset of C is one of those really awkward goals
00:44:06 <kmc> they should have just made a C FFI like any other language
00:44:06 <pikhq> I consider the design goals 99% of what makes it "designed wrong".
00:44:14 <Sgeo> Is there a lens library for Rust?
00:44:21 <kmc> i don't know
00:44:54 <kmc> also screw scheme-style macros
00:44:59 <kmc> i want real metaprograms damnit
00:45:04 <pikhq> Ultimately *most* of the awkward bits there you can find out that the reason for is 'we really wanted foo to work, and this is literally the only way to get it to work with bar and baz."
00:46:09 <elliott> kmc: what do you mean by "real metaprograms"
00:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> did he just miss the part where it never specifies 'on earth's surface'
00:46:23 <elliott> I hope it is not "unsafe-by-default metaprograms"
00:46:29 <Bike> scheme-style and fuck-you style are copowerful so shruuuuug
00:46:52 <kmc> elliott: i meant I want to write Lisp programs that output Lisp programs
00:46:59 <kmc> not programs in some turing tarpit that output Lisp programs
00:47:16 <kmc> in my limited experience, it's pretty easy to do this safely if you have some kind of auto-gensym mechanism
00:47:19 <Sgeo> "For type casting, Rust uses the binary as operator. It takes an expression on the left side and a type on the right side and will, if a meaningful conversion exists, convert the result of the expression to the given type."
00:47:21 <Bike> i like that as far as i can tell oleg uses not-scheme macros
00:47:30 <elliott> gensym doesn't even give hygiene, so
00:47:49 <elliott> it gives one half of it but actually i've forgotten the other half since who cares about lisp
00:47:51 <Bike> i still don't understand hygeine being a problem, does that seriously happen?
00:48:04 <elliott> Q: do people make mistakes? A: yes
00:48:10 <kmc> of course my preferred system for hygenic metaprogramming is operatives
00:48:29 -!- olsner has joined.
00:48:37 <Sgeo> kmc, did you learn Tcl yet?
00:48:58 <elliott> tcl is easy to learn if you already know scheme
00:49:10 <Bike> i really need to get to completing my gf-operative-partial-evaluation fantasy
00:49:12 <Sgeo> ....is that "god no" a reaction mostly due to having heard rumors about Tcl, or some property of Tcl itself
00:49:27 <elliott> 1. imagine everything is strings 2. imagine you can access and poke into the scope of your callers (recursively)
00:49:59 <Sgeo> Tcl is a really bad language to try to learn by just trying to modify existing code
00:50:03 <Bike> generic function
00:50:07 <Sgeo> You need to learn the fundamentals of how it works
00:50:37 <Bike> in my efforts to figure out how the fuck to make kernel fast i've found that the main problem may be being unable to assume that an arbitrary calling-position-thing doesn't replace your environment's $define! with monkeys-out-ass
00:50:56 <Bike> i should just get rid of mutation, fuck mutation
00:51:01 <Bike> letrec fo lyfe
00:51:15 <kmc> can't we just throw a generic tracing JIT at it and handwave
00:51:18 <elliott> Bike: well scheme has a similar problem right
00:51:21 <kmc> someone already implemented Qoppa on PyPy
00:51:22 <elliott> you can rebind the global +
00:51:33 <Sgeo> kmc, I should do it on Racket eventually
00:51:35 <elliott> and suddenly your inner loop calls some slow ass bullshit
00:51:59 <Sgeo> kmc, and you should learn Tcl >.>
00:52:01 <Bike> elliott: well in kernel you can't redefine things in some toplevel environment
00:52:04 <elliott> (sort of think this kind of mutation which exposes "implementation details" should be banned, even by languages that allow mutation, though I'm not sure how to define exactly what makes it more objectionable or how you'd block it)
00:52:32 <Bike> mostly i just don't see why you'd want to do that really, defining things in a not-toplevel environment seems pointless
00:52:54 <Bike> as far as i can tell the kernel guy only does it because he's used to scheme's define-is-actually-letrec thing except that in kernel it's not
00:53:04 <elliott> i sort of hate kernel's naming scheme
00:53:11 <elliott> why does everything have a !
00:53:12 <Bike> so like every time you call map you redefine and reevaluate six auxillary functions
00:53:14 <elliott> even if it isn't really mutating things
00:53:31 <Bike> it mutates the environment...
00:53:31 <kmc> operatives have a $
00:53:45 <Sgeo> Mostly my problem with the language boils down to lack of closures, lack of quasiquoting, and not the best stdlib for functionalness
00:53:51 <elliott> Bike: sure but that's a kind of weak sense of mutation
00:53:57 <Sgeo> But it's still an interesting take on metaprogramming
00:53:57 <elliott> or does kernel not separate define and set!, I forget
00:54:00 <Bike> the environment is an object and you're changing it
00:54:10 <Bike> kernel doesn't have scheme's define
00:54:22 <Bike> buuuuut i honeslty have very little idea of what the fuck scheme's define is
00:54:44 <Bike> even if kernel's $define! causes me headaches i at least know what it does, and it's not second-class or whatever you call it
00:55:29 <Bike> anyway this is why i need to do my closures-as-partial-applications, fuck-mutation, recursively-define-eval-generically fantasy, so that i can show you all etc
00:55:54 <elliott> fuck you @ is way better than that
00:56:03 <elliott> i bet Bike's language doesn't even have dependent types
00:56:06 <Bike> maru! that was it
00:56:25 <Bike> i've been thinking about types actually, mostly because writing a type system in kernel seems like it might be kind of a pain
00:56:37 <kmc> static types?
00:56:41 <Bike> of course i'm used to tres inferior CL types, aka do whatever the fuck you want types
00:56:43 <kmc> that could be real difficult yeah
00:56:53 <Bike> welllll i'm used to types being a compilation aid
00:57:02 <pikhq> Clearly, @ is the language such that it is greater than each other language.
00:57:15 <Bike> i'm thinking in the partial evaluator you can bind x to a type of integers, rather than a specific integers, and then the optimizer can get to work bla bla bla
00:57:18 <pikhq> That is, there is a maximum language, and it is @.
00:57:21 <elliott> well, lisp + type system is [siren][slide whistle][bark][alarm][falling down stairs][car crash][advertising jingle]
00:57:39 <kmc> elliott: [face shoved in toilet]
00:57:50 <Bike> elliott: it's gonna be great when you define the macro expansion of @ and get gregor to alter the logs
00:57:55 <Bike> and all these lines are like super long
00:58:13 <kmc> `quote in.toilet
00:58:13 <elliott> what if @'s name is zero characters WHAT THEN
00:58:15 <HackEgo> 988) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
00:58:28 <Bike> elliott: that's boring. you're better than that.
00:58:44 <Bike> Now you're talking.
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00:59:45 <mnoqy> the only @ quote im remembering right now is
00:59:54 <HackEgo> 451) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
01:00:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24051
01:00:20 <kmc> if I move to CA i'm going to buy a vaporizer
01:00:37 <Bike> did somebody seriously /ignore fungot and then brag about it.
01:00:38 <fungot> Bike: more and a larger rate increases of more if they please. received request on any of the ( i am to get an enron/ dynegy pricing.
01:01:05 <Bike> 892 is great imo
01:01:10 <elliott> Bike: that's V*rpal back from when he was even worse
01:01:11 <kmc> `quote 892
01:01:12 <HackEgo> 892) * GreyKnight puts some cookies inside a forcefield ⌇⌇ o o o ⌇⌇ <GreyKnight> what now c00kiemon5ter?!? * c00kiemon5ter omnomnomnomnomnomnomnom <GreyKnight> but how did he get through the forcefield?!? @u@ <c00kiemon5ter> I did not! the cookielicious force within me grew outside the forcefield absording the crumbles <GreyKnight> dar
01:01:31 <elliott> Bike: also I _think_ I may have been using fungot to evade his /ignore of me at the time.
01:01:31 <fungot> elliott: average 1 to the their site did not do any days next two to the all the business that the corporate parent.
01:01:43 <kmc> ok am I somehow hallucinating the idea that the Linux kernel used to have a driver for the Rez Trance Vibrator?
01:01:49 <Bike> elliott: lol ol ol.
01:01:53 <Bike> kmc: i've heard that too
01:01:54 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:02:03 <Bike> everything should have rez support
01:02:21 <kmc> i can't find it in 2.6.12-rc2 /or/ 3.9
01:02:28 <kmc> maybe it was removed in 2.6
01:02:45 <Bike> what functions does the thing even have
01:02:50 <Bike> you can change intensity?
01:03:04 <Bike> "Rez TranceVibrator: OS X/Linux Drivers and fingerd Client" this has got to be intentional
01:03:32 <Bike> "This program is a rudimentary teledildonics application built around the finger daemon - hence bringing generations of CS undergrad innuendo full circle."
01:03:34 <elliott> meanwhile, reminder that the phrase "teledildonics" exists
01:03:51 <Bike> okay this program is actually great.
01:04:15 * kmc downloads http://archive.org/download/git-history-of-linux/full-history-linux.git.tar
01:04:32 <Bike> "<< Today in Japanese Amputee Sex Doll news"
01:04:39 <elliott> kmc: wouldn't it be faster to clone from actual git
01:04:40 <Bike> how long is the full history of linux
01:04:47 <elliott> or is linux's actual git truncated???
01:04:47 <kmc> over 50 feet
01:04:52 <elliott> even though that's sort of impossible
01:05:00 <kmc> http://www.monochrom.at/arse-elektronika/ nsfw i guess
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01:05:09 <Bike> what source control was linux originally on
01:05:15 <Bike> confession i know actually shit about linux
01:05:15 <kmc> tarballs and patches
01:05:18 <pikhq> elliott: Linus's git is truncated because it only goes back to the start of Linus version controlling.
01:05:26 <Bike> i meant like, when it got version control, though
01:05:29 <kmc> which is actually a better system than CVS it turns out
01:05:36 <elliott> Bike: it was on bitkeeper for a while
01:05:38 <Bike> or did it have nothing before git
01:05:40 <elliott> maybe you knew that though
01:05:45 <kmc> the live Git repo goes back to 2.6.12-rc2; people have reconstructed repos for older
01:05:46 <Bike> what's bitkeeper
01:05:50 <elliott> and then there was a shitstorm re: bitkeeper relating to its proprietariness
01:06:04 <elliott> that was before hg and stuff really existed (hg was written as a candidate for linux I think)
01:06:12 <elliott> the state of the art in DVCSes was like bitkeeper, darcs, monotone
01:06:14 <kmc> hg is also too slow to handle Linux, i think
01:06:18 <Bike> wow i googed "bitkeeper" and the very third link is somebody complaining about linux using it.
01:06:18 <kmc> or at least would have been back in the day
01:06:30 <Bike> linux*, but whatever.
01:06:34 <elliott> Bike: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitKeeper
01:06:41 <Bike> i can't fucking type that name any more
01:06:46 <elliott> in particular "Pricing change"
01:06:46 <kmc> Git was designed to handle huge repos quickly, which may have been a dumb design goal for a VCS in general, but is something the Linux team legitimately needed
01:07:14 <Bike> "Even after this addition, flamewars[8]"
01:07:20 <elliott> it was actually byran o'sullivan who had to stop working on hg
01:07:29 <elliott> rather than some random person
01:07:37 <kmc> he wrote a hg book
01:07:50 <elliott> i think i vaguely recall that yeah
01:07:54 <Bike> man i'm so glad i'm too naïve to care about version control.
01:08:03 <kmc> just use git because it's Good Enough and it's standard
01:08:17 <elliott> it's sort of interesting that darcs in 2005 was in some ways even then better than git is today
01:08:21 <Bike> that's 'very pathetic'
01:09:23 <kmc> lol @ people who believe in progress in CS
01:09:53 <Bike> elliott: pretty sure you're going to have to make @ at least negative ten characters to make this work.
01:10:00 <elliott> i sort of get tempted to use darcs occasionally
01:10:07 <elliott> and git is annoying in several ways
01:10:14 <pikhq> Hey, at least freaking CVS is dying.
01:10:35 <kmc> at my job in 2009-2010 we still had a CVS->Git import cronjob
01:10:48 <kmc> because a few people refused to learn Git and were too important to be told they had to
01:11:01 <elliott> but if anyone wants to read about truly bizarre software design
01:11:03 <Bike> everybody's said anything, nothing is novel
01:11:06 <elliott> read the GNU arch aka tla docs/tutorial
01:11:06 <kmc> elliott: github is also annoying in several ways
01:11:25 <pikhq> kmc: Why not git-cvsserver?
01:11:30 <elliott> tl;dr distributed version control in the early 2000s was fucking weird
01:11:33 <kmc> pikhq: i don't know, i didn't set it up (thank god)
01:11:38 <elliott> kmc: this is true but it's also convenient and have you seen the equivalent sites for darcs and stuff
01:11:46 <kmc> what about bitbucket
01:11:53 <elliott> bitbucket does not do darcs afaik
01:12:00 <kmc> i think it has rough feature parity, plus free private repos
01:12:04 <kmc> yeah I didn't mean for darcs specifically
01:12:14 <elliott> bitbucket is ok, I prefer github's ui
01:12:15 <kmc> also it lets you check out a hg repo as git or vice versa, I think
01:12:19 <kmc> which is pretty neat
01:12:23 <elliott> I also remember when bitbucket's UI was basically a straight clone of github's at the time
01:12:38 <kmc> i have a few gripes with github's UI plus the company is annoying brogrammers or something
01:12:50 <elliott> i don't really believe in "git/hg interoperability"
01:12:55 <elliott> since git has the whole rebase culture and stuff going on
01:13:15 <Bike> "rebase culture" should be about drugs imo
01:13:16 <Gregor> I prefer bitbucket to github, and have always been fairly happy with my clone-all-my-hgs-to-git style of interop.
01:13:32 <kmc> it's funny how people always talk about merging as a major feature of git, yet a lot of projects use rebases only
01:13:40 <kmc> it's just a lot simpler
01:14:03 <kmc> but occasionally you do miss having merge history recorded
01:14:04 <elliott> really i'd like to use scapegoat and goatpen, thanks in advance
01:14:11 <Gregor> (Also, hg can do rebase, it just can't erase history, so you don't lose the original -base)
01:14:31 <elliott> kmc: i like how you realised how horrible a mistake asking what something is in #esoteric is before you finished that line
01:14:45 <kmc> nah just too lazy to type
01:14:55 <Bike> Q: has some nerd somewhere used vcs to write, say, a novel
01:15:03 <elliott> scapegoat is ais's vapourware VCS design
01:15:09 <elliott> goatpen is obviously what you'd call a scapegoat hosting site
01:15:20 <kmc> no i would buy goatse.cx
01:15:23 <elliott> Bike: sure, but probably more commonly papers and stuff
01:15:28 <kmc> Goat Software Exchange
01:15:31 <elliott> i'm sure the history of that goes back to RCS and stuff
01:15:34 -!- olsner has joined.
01:15:37 <elliott> why *wouldn't* you version control it
01:15:47 <kmc> i think SIPB still keeps meeting notes in RCS
01:15:56 <pikhq> www.goatsexchange.com
01:16:06 <elliott> scapegoat's design is cool but I forget if ais523 worked out the problems it had
01:16:11 <Bike> my problem with this is that goats are kind of jerks
01:17:09 <Bike> i think we need more clever well-recognized idioms based on nematodes
01:17:21 <elliott> kmc: btw are the github devs actually bad, I don't really know anything about it as a company
01:17:33 <elliott> i guess i should probably assume web 2.0 companies are bad by default
01:17:41 <Sgeo> I finally know why Chrome keeps crashign when I close a popup
01:17:49 <Sgeo> [858788.405914] chrome[14158]: segfault at 55e ip 005216c0 sp bfeb9580 error 4 in libgobject-2.0.so.0.2600.1[4f8000+41000]
01:17:56 <kmc> they're inordinately proud of their dumb "hot forking action" pun as a sign that they're hip and cool and not corporate
01:17:59 <kmc> http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/07/how-github-used.html
01:18:19 <kmc> they finally removed it
01:18:23 <kmc> years after a bunch of people complained
01:18:28 <elliott> i've groaned at that before yeah
01:18:36 <elliott> do i really want to click this 37signals link
01:18:41 <elliott> do i really want to click any 37signals link
01:18:49 <kmc> i love all this posturing over having cool "corporate culture"
01:19:10 <kmc> it boils down to reversing the superficial aspects of traditional companies while badly misunderstanding why these things exist
01:19:11 <Sgeo> I've used campfire before
01:19:13 <Bike> software companies should just use autogestion, obviously
01:19:20 <kmc> http://blog.prettylittlestatemachine.com/blog/2013/02/20/what-your-culture-really-says
01:19:32 <elliott> Having very little money, very little time, and a lot of passion leaves few options. You pretty much have to do what Jason, David, and the boys say. It's the smartest way to succeed.
01:19:34 <Bike> i'm not going to click any of these links
01:19:45 <kmc> Bike: no you should click the one i just sent
01:19:45 <Bike> thanks for demonstrating why, elliott.
01:19:46 <elliott> now accepting bets wrt how much "very little money" actually was
01:19:55 <kmc> elliott: they didn't take any funding
01:20:00 <kmc> maybe they were already rich though
01:20:10 <elliott> pretty little hate machine
01:20:55 <Bike> ok i glanced at the link, seemed pretty normal in terms of things i already know + reasons i want to work in a nice sensible culture like academia instead (insert five minutes of tearful laughter)
01:21:13 <elliott> maybe i should work on implementing scapegoat again, as if i don't already have enough things to do
01:21:16 <kmc> ksplice didn't take outside investing but had loans from founders + govt grants + prize money
01:21:33 <kmc> some glibertarian blog wrote about how ksplice was cool tech but you shouldn't use it because it's funded by stolen blood money
01:23:15 <kmc> Bike: it's just a pretty good takedown of the standard "corporate culture" memes
01:23:33 <kmc> and the oblivious self-congratulation of web startup land
01:23:37 <Bike> i'm just not sure i need such a takedown is all
01:23:47 <kmc> you must not enjoy hating on things as much as i do
01:23:55 <Bike> i'm afraid it's true
01:24:00 <kmc> also it is more actually relevant to me, it's true
01:24:12 <Bike> yeah, that too, i've never even been employed `-`
01:24:21 * kmc is moving to SF and needs to not fall into the web startup bubble
01:24:30 <Bike> possibly a bit early to go all socialist radical??? who knows
01:24:30 <elliott> imo kmc should give me a job complaining about things
01:24:40 <pikhq> I've got a friend working at a web startup.
01:24:42 <Bike> i'm pretty sure kmc has got that department covered
01:24:45 <kmc> they say that the only people who made money in the gold rush were the people selling shovels and pickaxes (and booze and hookers)
01:24:48 <pikhq> He spends more time than is healthy talking about how Ruby sucks.
01:25:10 <kmc> what about it pikhq
01:25:23 <elliott> ok well kmc should give me a job not implementing @ then
01:25:26 <pikhq> Almost everything in it.
01:25:46 <kmc> i've not written much Ruby but i have a hard time getting worked up about the differences between (say) Ruby, Python, and JavaScript
01:25:55 <Bike> elliott: better kickstart it
01:25:56 <kmc> except I think the Python community has better taste in sane API design
01:26:08 <pikhq> Ruby is PHP for the brogrammer.
01:26:11 <kmc> and the Ruby people (mainly Rails people) go nuts for DSLs that look slick but have incoherent semantics
01:26:25 <kmc> i don't have a great example or really know what I'm talking about, though
01:26:38 <Bike> ruby dsls frighten me
01:26:39 <copumpkin> that ruby list comprehension that looks like haskell? :P
01:26:50 <Bike> like sure you can do that but /why/
01:27:07 <Bike> https://room208.org/qdb/917
01:27:14 <kmc> Bike: why? because it looks great in a fancy font at 72pt on your website
01:27:24 <Bike> those sites are the worst
01:27:35 <kmc> remember that beginners can't tell good semantics from bad but they can detect "elegant syntax"
01:28:00 <kmc> elegance = if you read all the alphabetic tokens in order, it sounds kind of like an english sentence
01:28:30 <Bike> i'm pretty sure 'elegance' doesn't mean anything
01:28:33 <Bike> i think i'm just a nihilist.
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01:28:53 <ais523> <elliott> scapegoat's design is cool but I forget if ais523 worked out the problems it had ← I'm not sure if I did or not, it was all theoretical and we probably wouldn't discover some of the problems until practice?
01:28:57 <kmc> Bike: i think it might mean something but at best it's gratuitously overused
01:29:22 <elliott> ais523: i think there was some big problem with merges
01:29:25 <kmc> you can't talk about your project being 'elegant' and 'minimal' if you don't say what your concrete design goals are
01:29:38 <ais523> elliott: the problem was with conflict resolution, I thought
01:29:39 <kmc> and even if you do say, making it 'minimal' wrt those goals is just basic competence in engineering
01:29:40 <Bike> concrete doesn't sound very elegant!
01:29:45 <ais523> (and reverts are a special case of conflict resolution)
01:29:53 <copumpkin> you know what bugs me? test frameworks (in all sorts of languages these days) that have english-y statements
01:29:58 <kmc> but these people don't want to be engineers, they want to be special snowflake hacker painter craftspeople
01:30:19 <elliott> ais523: right, maybe (reverts aren't just about conflict resolution, you can decide to revert without a conflict)
01:30:33 <ais523> the conflict is if someone edits the pre-revert version
01:33:29 <Bike> the test framework i usually use has a function "is", so you write (is (= value 5)) or something i guess that looks like code enough
01:34:31 <kmc> i don't mind things having cute names, but you shouldn't design the whole API and the meaning and type of every function around what makes the cute names work best
01:34:57 <kmc> it's the same problem as abuse of operator overloading, I guess
01:35:19 <Sgeo> Are the lens types an abuse of (.)'s type?
01:35:25 <kmc> i don't know
01:35:29 <Bike> hey kmc since you're like the only person here who likes C++, what do you think of the >> << thing with io
01:35:36 <Sgeo> If Prelude's . was the more generalized version, would Lens types be more sane?
01:35:43 <kmc> Bike: I don't like iostreams, I tend to use stdio even in C++
01:35:47 <kmc> it's just too verbose
01:35:50 <elliott> people just whine because ghci expands them
01:35:53 <Bike> personally it like
01:35:59 <elliott> and also edwardk went a bit crazy with index preserving stuff at one point
01:36:01 <kmc> the abuse of operator<< is kind of gross but not the major objection
01:36:03 <Bike> i think that syntax confused the hell out of me more than anything else in programming for years
01:36:09 <elliott> in particular lens' subtyping relies on being done exactly how it is done
01:36:10 <Bike> since i was learning when i was like ten, but
01:36:13 <zzo38> I think it should use the . from Category (and since -> is also a category it still work)
01:36:14 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:36:14 <elliott> it's not a "workaround" for not having Category or whatever
01:36:25 <kmc> the main thing iostreams gives you (besides just weird and verbose syntax) is that it lets every type define its own "how to print me" and "how to read me" methods
01:36:28 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 19h 55m 31s ago: http://www.gophercon.com/
01:36:36 <Bike> oh, that's always cool.
01:36:37 <kmc> sort of the C++ version of Show or __str__ or whatever
01:36:40 <elliott> kmc: you know what's great about that
01:36:46 <kmc> so there are some contexts where you want it
01:36:47 <elliott> guess what int8_ts get printed as
01:36:56 <kmc> because it's a transparent typedef
01:37:01 <Bike> i bet you can read them again though!!
01:37:06 <kmc> i bet there's an iomanip to change that :<
01:37:24 <Bike> or does it not have a "if it prints it should read in as the same thing" sort of restriction
01:37:24 <kmc> also bools get printed as 1 or 0 by default iirc
01:38:12 <NihilistDandy> As this is esoteric, does anyone know about configuring the Factor listener? #concatenative is less than chatty
01:38:22 <Bike> maybe sgeo knows
01:38:52 <kmc> i should learn how to use http://portswigger.net/burp/ for this interview
01:39:22 <Bike> attractive naming sense
01:39:28 <elliott> copumpkin: hey do you want an assignment? make the epigram blog not be down. I expect it done within the hour
01:39:37 <kmc> http://portswigger.net/screenshots/proxy_1.png classy password imo
01:39:50 <zzo38> I have had ideas about to improve the C, which is different from C++, such as to add a +|^ and -&~^ operators.
01:39:51 <Bike> looks cool though
01:39:52 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, when does it give that error?
01:39:57 <Sgeo> When trying to start Factor with the new rc?
01:40:19 <elliott> copumpkin: you've found a way to accomplish it already!
01:40:22 <elliott> i'm so proud of you, copumpkin
01:40:27 <Sgeo> What did you change?
01:41:37 <elliott> that means i'm the opposite of proud of you copumpkin
01:41:41 <elliott> for not having the job done already!!
01:41:57 <NihilistDandy> It works once I'm in the listener, but loading for the first time gives me the error
01:42:11 <Sgeo> Maybe wrong rc file?
01:42:18 * Sgeo is trying to find the docs on the rc files
01:42:46 <Sgeo> Also, that IN: scratchpad seems a bit odd, but I don't think it would cause that error
01:42:50 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, the docs were less than helpful. I tried it in ~/.factor-rc and ~/.factor-boot-rc
01:43:04 <NihilistDandy> That was just something I saw in another rc on github
01:43:42 <elliott> does anyone know where i should move my vps btw
01:43:43 * kmc tries and fails to feed a small insect to the flytrap
01:44:40 <Sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-ui-listener.html
01:44:44 <Sgeo> Has a sample RC
01:44:48 <Sgeo> It only has the USING:
01:45:40 <Bike> it's all part of the circle of life copumpkin
01:45:56 <copumpkin> so I had a train derailment not far from here!
01:46:06 <kmc> yeah i heard about that, was anyone hurt?
01:46:09 <Bike> did you survive
01:46:18 <copumpkin> apparently a few in bad shape though
01:46:22 <elliott> i heard about that in #haskell-blah
01:46:43 <Sgeo> Is Linode disliked these days?
01:46:43 <kmc> \rainbow{american infrastructure}
01:46:45 <kmc> "Reuters quotes Fairfield police spokesman Matt Panilaitis as saying none of those involved in the accident were believed to be suffering from life-threatening injuries."
01:46:52 <kmc> Sgeo: they got hacked but i haven't heard anything else bad
01:46:57 <elliott> Sgeo: linode is disliked a bit by me
01:47:10 <elliott> for the being hacked multiple times thing
01:47:19 <elliott> also linode is the reason lambdabot is slow now "just unacceptable"
01:48:07 <kmc> multiple times?
01:48:14 <Sgeo> They seem to give more for the money than prgmr, but they don't have plans as cheap as prgmr has
01:48:22 <elliott> i moved away from prgmr for performance reasons
01:48:29 <kmc> EC2 micro instance is free for a year
01:48:35 <kmc> Sgeo: what do you want to use your VM for
01:48:40 <elliott> also for i managed to not pay for 3 months reasons, oops
01:48:46 <Sgeo> kmc, probably nothing particularly intensive
01:48:54 <elliott> kmc: the first time was like their security thing got hacked and this gave them root access to a specific server (!!) or something
01:49:02 <kmc> i wonder when my free trial is up
01:49:14 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, hmm... maybe you need to delay your code from running until the UI is set up
01:49:19 <elliott> the second time was "hey our database was hacked, change your passwords"
01:49:25 <elliott> kind of feeling not confident in them
01:49:30 <Sgeo> Try commenting-out the actual code and leaving the USING: and seeing if you get the same error
01:49:35 <elliott> isn't EC2 expensive for something you run 24/7
01:49:37 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: I was thinking that, but I have no idea how to delay.
01:49:45 <elliott> also i kind of like how my linode is in london
01:49:50 <elliott> so the low latency is really nice
01:50:20 <elliott> oh what, i'm entitled to 1 gig of ram on my linode for free
01:50:26 <elliott> and they never emailed me about it i guess?
01:50:42 <elliott> oh but the machine will go down for 20 minutes to do it
01:50:47 <elliott> can i stand being away from irc for that long
01:51:21 <Jafet> Ask oerjan to logread for you
01:51:30 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: Maybe I need the USING: in my boot-rc and the font setting in the runtime one?
01:51:37 <elliott> Full disclosure: the new plans are $0.05 more expensive per month. We did this to get rid of the legacy $19.95, $39.95, $59.95, etc pricing model in favor of a simpler $20, $40, $60 model. The upgrade is not mandatory, so if you’re not down with the 5 cent increase you can keep your existing resources and pricing.
01:51:47 <elliott> it literally says the upgrade is free in the UI
01:52:00 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, I'm thinking you need to put the code in some quotation that will hold onto the command until it's ready
01:52:13 <Jafet> @google full disclosure
01:52:13 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_disclosure
01:52:14 <lambdabot> Title: Full disclosure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
01:52:29 <kmc> i love it when I run a program and it just does nothing and reports no error and returns exit code 0
01:52:52 <kmc> elliott: EC2 is expensive for 24/7 but it's what all startups do anyway because it's the cool thing and they have too much money
01:53:01 <kmc> and they have delusions of needing to scale quickly, but their code won't support it anyway
01:53:07 <Jafet> Well, it's not their money
01:53:21 <kmc> no it pretty much is
01:53:21 <elliott> i forgot how fucking complicated EC2's pricing is
01:53:39 <kmc> if you sell stock and get cash, that cash is yours
01:53:43 <kmc> just like selling anything else
01:54:03 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, I think bootstrap RC would just not happen until you boot up from a freshly bootstrapped image
01:54:07 <Sgeo> I may be understanding wrong
01:54:11 <kmc> it's the company's money and it's the employees' money in proportion to their own ownership share
01:54:18 <kmc> the main thing is that they have lots of money and expect to be able to raise more
01:54:22 <pikhq> EC2 makes a lot of sense if you're going to spin up some instances for a bit. But *jesus* is it pricy 24/7.
01:54:27 <kmc> but if you raise a bunch of money and then squander it, people won't want to give you more
01:54:36 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: Yeah, there aren't a whole of references for it. :/
01:54:38 <pikhq> It amazes me that anything uses it that way.
01:54:54 <NihilistDandy> Hopefully someone on #concatenative will know. Or maybe I just have to save the image when I have it to my liking
01:55:07 <lambdabot> alexbagel says: i find that my first 26 variables are always easy to name. after that it becomes a bit harder.
01:55:08 <Bike> hm, the virology blog went down, why did it go down
01:55:13 <lambdabot> SimonMarlow says: This is the largest program (in terms of memory requirements) I've ever seen anyone run using GHC. In fact there was no machine in our building capable of running it, I had to
01:55:13 <lambdabot> fire up the largest Amazon EC2 instance available (68GB) to debug it - this bug cost me $26.
01:55:27 <kmc> (it's also not strictly in proportion to share, because the funding shares will have a liquidity preference attached)
01:55:50 <pikhq> Micro instances aren't quite so bad, but... yeah
01:55:58 <kmc> Ksplice used EC2 instances to build new kernel when they came out
01:56:04 <Sgeo> So, what has cheap options like prgmr but don't assume you're an expert?
01:56:10 <kmc> we used spot instances which are even cheaper
01:56:19 <kmc> it's good for that kind of intermittent batch processing
01:56:33 <pikhq> Hmm. EC2 micro is $15 a month, which ain't that bad.
01:56:48 <elliott> that would be a $5 saving for me
01:57:10 <Sgeo> I think since I doubt I'd use it that much, $20 or $25 a month is a bit excessive
01:57:21 <Bike> how much do y'all play for 'computer things'
01:59:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is "DNA Mad Scientist" a good episode?
02:00:20 <kmc> a micro is pretty wimpy
02:00:32 <kmc> it has a reasonable max performance but it'll throttle back randomly
02:00:40 <Jafet> http://linode.com looks so overpriced
02:00:52 <elliott> Jafet: in comparison to what
02:00:56 <Sgeo> Jafet, it seems underpriced compared to prgmr :/
02:01:14 <Sgeo> Why is prgmr so expensive
02:01:22 <pikhq> A micro instance probably makes no sense for anyone who gives a damn about processor usage.
02:01:23 <kmc> someone has to pay for vowel removal
02:01:24 <elliott> is it going to take another 5 questions to determine what that is and where it is
02:01:34 <Jafet> @google heztner robot
02:01:35 <lambdabot> http://www.wepoca.net/setup-proxmox-on-hetzner-server
02:01:36 <lambdabot> Title: how to setup Proxmox VE 2.x on Hetzner EX4 server | wepoca
02:01:49 <elliott> Sgeo: when i switched to linode prgmr's prices were comparable to linode's for comparable machines
02:01:50 <Jafet> @google hetzner robot
02:01:53 <elliott> maybe the linode upgrades have changed that though
02:02:20 <elliott> that https://robot.your-server.de/ site is uh
02:03:23 <Jafet> Hm, it used to be a dutch auction
02:03:31 <Jafet> Not a log-in prompt
02:04:03 <Jafet> https://robot.your-server.de/order/market
02:04:28 <Jafet> It's still a dutch auction
02:04:49 <Bike> terms and policies for: nothing
02:06:02 <elliott> also the cheapest one is $30?
02:06:08 <elliott> which is... $15 more than i'm paying linode
02:06:15 <elliott> so i don't really see how linode is overpriced
02:06:40 <elliott> i mean it has better specs, sure
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02:07:03 <Jafet> Yes, they don't do vps
02:07:31 <pikhq> If you're going to use a micro instance 24/7 it looks as though you should instead use a reserved instance.
02:07:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:07:51 <pikhq> Which comes out to $8.81 a month for a year, or $105.80 per year.
02:07:58 <pikhq> (note that $62 of that is up-front)
02:08:25 <elliott> what do you get for $20 a month
02:08:41 <pikhq> Goes all the way down to $6.42 if you can stomach paying $100 for 3 years upfront
02:08:53 <Jafet> I don't think I've run any computer 24/7 for a year
02:09:09 <Jafet> Or even for most of a year
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02:09:11 <elliott> also are any EC2s in the UK / can you guarantee getting one in the UK
02:09:12 <pikhq> Small instance is $24.
02:09:16 <elliott> Jafet: well hosting stuff...
02:09:19 <elliott> or do you just mean because of reboots and stuff
02:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: If by "UK" you mean "Ireland". :P
02:09:49 <Jafet> Also I'd think if you want 24/7 hosting you wouldn't use amazlol
02:09:57 <elliott> ireland works for me, sure
02:10:24 <pikhq> A small instance is... $15.90 a month if you pay $257 upfront for 3 years.
02:10:46 <pikhq> The charge-per-month is including the upfront.
02:10:55 <pikhq> Sans up-front it's $8.76
02:11:09 <elliott> i couldn't actually find details on what micro/small/etc. get you on the ec2 website
02:11:12 <elliott> probably because i gave up quickly
02:12:16 <elliott> maybe i should be cool and run my server on nixos
02:12:29 <pikhq> Wikipedia seems helpful.
02:15:48 <Jafet> Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia of AWS pricing tables
02:16:22 <kmc> a lot of things about EC2 seem pointlessly complicated
02:16:37 <kmc> pricing may be pointfully complicated in order to trick people into paying more
02:17:02 <elliott> sort of seems like the reason it's "hip" is probably related to how impossible it is to figure out anything about it
02:17:14 <pikhq> It's definitely non-trivial to find what the cheap way of getting a certain amount of resources is.
02:17:38 <elliott> i sort of hate running "a server" anyway
02:18:38 <elliott> it would be nice if i could just run "a mysql" (ok it would be nice if i didn't have to run mysql at all) and "an nginx with php" (ditto on the php) and configure the latter to have access to the former and it'd be arranged that they're on the same server when reasonable or whatever
02:18:47 <elliott> and it could automatically be migrated across servers and stuff
02:18:58 <Jafet> There's probably a startup for that
02:19:08 <elliott> and then i could run "an irssi" separately and the cost would be proportional to the resources of just the stuff i actually run
02:19:22 <elliott> i think heroku does something vaguely like this but probably not as pain-free as i'd like
02:19:40 <pikhq> Aaah, these figures also don't include the cost of any data storage.
02:20:03 <pikhq> $0.10 per GB per month.
02:20:10 <Jafet> elliott: can you port an irssi to node.js
02:20:15 <pikhq> Not too bad considering that'll just be your root FS, but still.
02:20:32 <kmc> the oldschool very uncool type of "shared web hosting" is also like this
02:20:34 <elliott> but like i'm not attached to having to upgrade the system as root manually or deal with organising a unix filesystem or whatever
02:20:37 <kmc> i.e. giving you "an nginx with php"
02:20:59 <elliott> seems like it would be simpler if that was handled for you since things like distros honestly don't matter beyond the versions of the software you actually care about
02:21:04 <elliott> kmc: right it is sort of like shared hosting
02:21:17 <elliott> except you'd want (a) more guarantees about what resources you get so it's closer to a VPS type offering
02:21:28 <elliott> (b) the ability to run arbitrary blobs of code if you want
02:21:33 <Jafet> nginx is russian nu-wave, man, oldskool is all about the apache 1.x
02:21:37 <elliott> (with proper network access etc.)
02:21:42 <elliott> (c) probably something else I'm forgetting
02:21:51 <elliott> but also there's no reason why all the stuff you run should be on one server
02:21:58 <zzo38> What else should be have is to run additional internet services, perhaps.
02:22:06 <elliott> just that stuff that has access to other stuff you run should ideally be automatically rigged to be "close"
02:22:11 <elliott> (maybe not on the exact same server all the time)
02:23:20 <elliott> (like, there could be servers optimised for running databases that the mysql would automatically prefer to be on by default, and the php would just communicate to the "nearest one" over the datacentre network)
02:23:32 <Jafet> e "server admin is hard wish I could pay a startup to do it for me" hird
02:23:44 <elliott> it's not hard it's just annoying
02:24:46 <elliott> i mean i keep it running but it's kind of annoying that i have to worry about things like "if i upgrade the RAM for esolangs.org then I will also be without my main IRC client for 20 minutes" because my IRC client is basically fundamentally disconnected from that
02:25:03 <elliott> with the only real connection being that I am paying the same company to give me the resources to run it
02:25:23 <Jafet> Migrate the vm of your irc client to another server
02:26:00 <elliott> then i have to pay twice as much despite using the same amount of resources
02:26:07 <elliott> and upgrade twice as many machines etc.
02:26:32 <Bike> so to sum up, you hate everything.
02:26:40 <Jafet> Migrate it to an ec2
02:27:03 <Bike> Maybe you should take up Taoism.
02:27:13 <Jafet> Make a startup that charges people ridiculous amounts of money to move their irssi vm's to ec2
02:27:22 <Jafet> It will probably work
02:28:32 <elliott> anyway kmc should be complaining not me imo
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03:03:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_the_logreader: HOLY SHIT
03:11:54 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these kind of extensions to C programming? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/black_c.txt
03:12:37 <Bike> not c99? mandating 2's complement?
03:13:18 <kmc> i'm in favor of mandating 2's complement for sure
03:13:33 <kmc> rather I think there should be a standard addendum to ISO 9899 which mandates sensible things like 2's complement
03:13:41 <kmc> and compilers can advertise that they comply with this addendum
03:13:47 <kmc> and weird systems can just stick with ISO 9899 proper
03:14:03 <Bike> ooh, local typedefs, cool
03:14:35 <Bike> is the ?: just short circuiting or
03:15:01 <zzo38> Bike: It is like the || in JavaScript, but not like the || in C.
03:15:18 <Bike> What's the difference with C? (/me bad at C obviously)
03:15:24 <zzo38> This ?: with nothing in between is same as in GNU C; a few of the things I listed are same as in Gnu C, even if not specified.
03:15:31 <zzo38> Bike: In C it is always boolean.
03:15:38 <zzo38> Therefore, the result is 1 and 0.
03:15:58 <Bike> «You can use "inline" with the same purpose as in GNU89 mode.» what's that?
03:18:57 <zzo38> See http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.3.6/gcc/Inline.html#Inline for information of the different inlining modes in GCC.
03:20:51 <Bike> #macro seems like it could be kinda nice, those \ lines always seem so dumb
03:21:27 <Bike> this macro {} thing, that's your way of saying you can specify parameters to the macro like a block or array access instead of a function call?
03:23:56 <Bike> constructors and destructors for automatic variables, huh.
03:30:00 <elliott> yo Bike make my computer faster
03:31:52 <Bike> do you mean like your computer or your linode or what
03:33:35 <pikhq> kmc: It's easy to write ISO 9899 C that also needs 2's complement.
03:33:52 <pikhq> kmc: int32_t and such *are* 2's complement (iff they exist)
03:34:01 <kmc> oh, really
03:34:19 <kmc> if they don't exist, does stdint.h also not exist?
03:34:20 <pikhq> Which also means POSIX systems must have 2's complement types.
03:34:31 <pikhq> stdint.h does, but it won't contain those types.
03:34:41 <kmc> is there a macro to test if they exist?
03:34:54 <kmc> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.31 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/26.0.1410.43 Safari/537.31
03:35:00 <kmc> THIS IS WHAT USER AGENTS REALLY BELIEVE
03:35:14 <pikhq> Well, there is one actually that's not meant as such but can be used.
03:35:21 <pikhq> INT32_MIN and friends. :)
03:35:44 <pikhq> Defined in stdint.h for each type defined in stdint.h
03:36:06 <pikhq> Also, POSIX requires the types for 8, 16, and 32 bits.
03:36:16 <pikhq> (both signed and unsigned)
03:37:14 <pikhq> zzo38: So, looks to me like you're defining a subset of GNU C that's relatively easy to implement.
03:38:11 <pikhq> FWIW the unnamed struct/union thing is in C11.
03:38:31 <zzo38> pikhq: Kind of, but some things I defined are not in GNU C.
03:38:44 <pikhq> Aaand I got to the first of those.
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03:40:10 <pikhq> Setting it up so you can use structs as a scope?
03:40:23 <pikhq> I like the #macro block I think.
03:40:43 <pikhq> Oh, look, and you made it TC. How nice. :P
03:41:32 <pikhq> I utterly love #binary.
03:41:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Neat stuff.
03:42:07 <Bike> yo elliott this takes time
03:42:16 <Bike> maybe ask for someone to make your computer-fasterer faster himself??
03:42:16 <pikhq> I take it you're thinking of macro assemblers?
03:42:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, some of the features are based on those of macro assemblers.
03:42:54 <Bike> elliott: i'm not qualified. do you want me to commit fraud
03:43:03 <elliott> ok i'm going to upgrade my linode
03:43:26 <elliott> "present" is my current status
03:44:18 <elliott> i've used half my disk space in /
03:44:42 <Bike> turns out elliott installed openoffice in /sbin
03:45:22 <elliott> installing openoffice on a server
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03:51:47 <kmc> seems that whatever Java UI toolkit Burp is using won't let me actually type text into any text field
03:51:50 <kmc> so that's fun
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03:58:47 <elliott> wow the abuse filter actually blocked someone
03:58:57 <Bike> that wasn't twenty minutes..
03:59:12 <elliott> i paid for the 'fast service' ;)
04:00:02 <elliott> ok so time to figure out what's using all the gigabytes
04:00:29 <elliott> Gregor: what was that thing you used
04:02:22 <elliott> to analyse the disk space's
04:02:36 <Gregor> Locally, k4dirstat. Remotely, philesight
04:03:57 <elliott> i remembered some like three letter name tool but ok
04:04:18 <Gregor> Nope, those are all that I use.
04:04:29 <Gregor> Except for the occasional du -bsx * | sort -n | less
04:06:40 <elliott> well i DISTINCTLY RECALL something!!
04:06:47 <elliott> iirc it had was ncursesy or something
04:07:12 <Gregor> Ohyeaaaah there was some tool I used for a while like that.
04:07:46 <elliott> is there a particular reason you stopped using it
04:07:57 <Gregor> I preferred the alternatives *shrugs*
04:08:22 <elliott> lol turns out i already have ncdu
04:08:51 <elliott> uh i wonder how to get accurate measurements without running the whole thing as root
04:10:07 <elliott> wow my irssi logs are half a gig
04:10:47 <ais523> half a gig is like one set of bookshelves at a library sort of size
04:11:10 <elliott> ais523: I haven't done any DCCing
04:11:24 <Bike> my irclogs total like... oh wow 200 MB wtff
04:11:36 <elliott> looks like the vast majority is ##crawl (217 Mio) + #haskell (106.7 Mio)
04:11:41 <Bike> i think i need to cut down on talking.
04:11:45 <elliott> #esoteric is in third place at only 23.8 Mio
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04:12:01 <ais523> mibioctet, still the best unit of measurement for data storage
04:12:27 <ais523> mibioctet = 1/128 of a bit
04:13:33 <pikhq> Well yeah. Arithmetic coding. :)
04:13:43 <ais523> fractional bits are useful for all sorts of purposes
04:14:25 <ais523> negative fractional bits, on the other hand…
04:14:27 <Bike> like describing my internet speed! (the joke is my internet)
04:14:43 <pikhq> Imaginary fractional bits.
04:14:55 <Bike> would negative bits have positive entropy
04:15:11 <pikhq> Yes, but negative negentropy.
04:15:42 <pikhq> Literally sucks the information right out of you.
04:15:44 <ais523> Bike: if you haven't already, look up TURKEY BOMB
04:15:47 <ais523> … if that's even possible
04:15:54 <ais523> is catseye's content saved anywhere?
04:15:57 <Bike> i did look it up
04:16:04 <Bike> i forgot most of it though
04:16:12 <Bike> poss. alien intervention
04:16:28 <ais523> I guess TURKEY BOMB is like the reverse of Feather
04:16:38 <ais523> Feather feels (to me at least) like it /should/ work, but I can't make it work
04:16:42 <Bike> in that it exists but wasn't intended to?
04:16:45 <pikhq> http://web.archive.org/web/20030528104217/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
04:16:53 <ais523> whereas TURKEY BOMB obviously doesn't work, but it's interesting trying to make it work
04:16:58 <ais523> pikhq: that's only archived the homepage, IIRC
04:17:01 <ais523> not the actual content
04:17:48 <elliott> ais523: btw someone should be emailing cpressey about that!
04:18:03 <ais523> you're not lazy enough to nag about it on IRC
04:18:11 <ais523> *to not nag about it on IRC
04:26:38 <elliott> hm, maybe I should be lazy and run esolangs.org off Arch so that I can have the same OS locally as on my server
04:30:20 <elliott> that way it would also break more often
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05:04:33 <pikhq> Why not use Debian unstable?
05:10:32 <elliott> well, that breaks more often *and* I have no clue about it.
05:11:50 <ais523> fwiw, I use the term "metric megabyte" to refer to 1000000 bytes
05:13:46 <Bike> picture a wave of a million bicycles bearing down on you
05:13:54 <Bike> GASHUNK they say, forcing open the door
05:20:42 <Bike> well it's like eight a clock so: yes
05:21:12 <zzo38> ais523: I think that is OK
05:24:15 <elliott> i sort of want to stay up but also i have this weird drowsy feeling and i have no idea why
05:31:32 <elliott> yo Bike if i collapse wake me up
05:32:22 <pikhq> elliott: I'll steal your sleep.
05:32:28 <Bike> you are supposed to be asleep
05:32:36 <elliott> don't you care about me Bike
05:32:42 <Bike> i care about your optimal sleep status
05:32:47 <Bike> just as you care for gregor's voice status
05:33:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
05:33:11 <Bike> well he doesn't have to be asleep all the time
05:33:15 <Bike> just when it's appropriate
05:33:20 <Bike> same for gregor (except with: voice)
05:33:28 <elliott> whenever you desireth a state pertaining to the voice of Gregor;
05:33:33 <elliott> hence thus the opposite shall be attained.
05:34:48 <Bike> 'hence thus', that is some /fantastic/ writing
05:37:14 <elliott> yes. someone so gifted as me should not sleep
05:37:17 <elliott> what if I lost my talents?
05:37:38 <Bike> this particular talent sucks imo
05:40:40 <Bike> you know who else sucks?
05:44:35 <elliott> he researches speech recognition dude.
05:44:40 <elliott> the only thing worse is biology
05:44:54 <Bike> you know what's worsest?
05:44:59 <Bike> that's right. whatever myndzi does.
05:45:36 <Bike> and since this is #esoteric there's a good chance that that thing is also the thing that you do.
05:46:22 <elliott> ok dude why am i weirdly drowsy this is weird as heck
05:46:29 <elliott> maybe i took too much melatonin yesterday or something
05:46:55 <ais523> oh, right, after doing a bunch of website design
05:47:03 <ais523> I think I decided the concrete reason why CSS sucks
05:47:17 <ais523> it lacks measurements like "100%-10em-8px"
05:47:36 <ais523> the vast majority of weird complex CSS is attempting to simulate this sort of formula using multiple nested elements
05:50:18 <Sgeo> How would CORS withCredentials requests work without third-party cookies enabled?
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06:32:49 <kmc> http://englishrussia.com/2010/03/12/ekranoplan/ nice photos
06:33:16 <kmc> this is the channel for esoteric naval vessels right?
06:33:56 <Bike> ekranoplans are crazy
07:09:38 <zzo38> Do you want SQL to have a way to create anonymous triggers, views, overrides of a table with a view, etc and store the reference as a value in a table?
07:10:22 <shachaf> zzo38: all i want is a hug
07:10:38 <zzo38> We don't sell that.
07:11:35 <shachaf> I didn't say anything about selling.
07:11:38 <shachaf> I propose a fair exchange.
07:12:56 <kmc> a hug purchased with fiat money is no better than slavery #bitcoin
07:13:10 <Bike> hugcoin would be good
07:13:26 <kmc> how does that work exactly
07:13:45 <kmc> it's like bitcoin except instead of finding SHA-256 preimages you can only mine a coin by convincing a human being to hug you
07:13:47 <Bike> shachaf hugs you and gives you money, if you can solve some hash
07:13:56 <kmc> what if i smoke it instead (drugs joke)
07:14:34 <shachaf> kmc: what if some people decide to game the system and start hugging each other all the time
07:14:58 <oklopol> then the length of hugs needed to produce money is increased
07:15:19 <shachaf> is it the length or number of hugs that's relevant
07:15:33 <oklopol> yes, number of _valid_ hugs
07:15:37 <shachaf> imo high-frequency hugging is the future
07:18:40 <kmc> shachaf: we will write code to detect such "hug rings" and silently ignore them, unless they benefit our own political and financial aims
07:19:30 <kmc> shachaf: yes (we were talking about it in cslounge earlier)
07:21:16 <kmc> that thing i said
07:21:20 <kmc> except with voting instead of hugs
07:21:35 <kmc> don't have
07:21:47 <kmc> YC companies are allowed to circlejerk about their shitty startups
07:21:47 <Bike> imo what happens on hn stays on hn
07:21:52 <Bike> elliott: fyi it's now 8? sleep
07:22:20 <kmc> ksplice ran into this filter at one point
07:22:22 <elliott> not when i sent that though
07:22:30 <kmc> filter and/or manual pg cockblocking
07:23:02 <kmc> sometimes he bans people but often he just makes it so your posts don't appear for others, or your votes don't count or only count half
07:23:09 <kmc> or your articles just mysteriously can't make it to the front page
07:23:30 <Bike> benevolent dicktatorship
07:23:46 <kmc> the free market has decided that pg is a superior being and therefore his actions are fair ipso facto
07:24:52 <Bike> i believe that is the principle behind megabonuses for CEOs
07:24:57 <elliott> i ran into a pg article that made me groan today
07:25:14 <kmc> i had a dream where i punched pg (not really (that would be pathetic))
07:25:22 <elliott> actually it would be kind of cool
07:25:25 <elliott> i'd respect a guy who has pg punching dreams
07:25:30 <kmc> (the previous message is a joke about lisp (hth))
07:25:37 <Bike> i wouldn't respect such dreams
07:25:44 <Bike> imo only dream about going to school w/o underwear
07:25:48 <elliott> anyhow i am going to quote
07:26:00 <elliott> probably kmc has already read it but w/e
07:26:30 <elliott> "Let's start with a test: Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers? [...] What can't we say? One way to find these ideas is simply to look at things people do say, and get in trouble for. [...] We have such labels today, of course, quite a lot of them, from the all-purpose "inappropriate" to the dreaded "divisive." In any period, it should be easy to figure out what such labels are, simply by
07:26:37 <elliott> uh that probably got cut off
07:26:40 <elliott> We have such labels today, of course, quite a lot of them, from the all-purpose "inappropriate" to the dreaded "divisive." In any period, it should be easy to figure out what such labels are, simply by looking at what people call ideas they disagree with besides untrue. [...]
07:26:44 <elliott> So another way to figure out which of our taboos future generations will laugh at is to start with the labels. Take a label-- "sexist", for example-- and try to think of some ideas that would be called that. Then for each ask, might this be true?"
07:27:06 <elliott> it takes like two pages to edge towards "hey guys....... i think i might be sexist"
07:27:15 <kmc> i read on HN that women just aren't smart enough to be startup programmers and that's why they do easier stuff like theoretical physics or bioengineering
07:27:24 <elliott> and then backs as far away from it as possible
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07:29:47 <elliott> also it thanks eric raymond for "conversations about heresy" at the bottom
07:29:52 <elliott> dunno whether that is esr or some other guy though
07:30:16 <kmc> pg and esr are like two sides of the same shitty coin
07:30:43 <kmc> i've got it: shitcoin
07:30:53 <elliott> "i've seen the way pg and esr look at each other"
07:31:43 <Bike> kmc: i saw some semi-serious thing called that
07:32:12 <kmc> anyway i'm glad that the voices of wealthy white men are finally being heard in this society
07:32:36 <Bike> too long has the white man been put down with offensive terms like "divisive" and "shitheaded"
07:33:18 <elliott> relevant crazy esr post http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4893
07:33:26 <kmc> not clicking, hth
07:33:29 <elliott> i haven't actually read more than a few paragraphs so let me know if it's even better than i imagine
07:33:54 <elliott> kmc: uh are you saying you don't want to read an eric s raymond post which includes the text
07:33:58 <elliott> [[A recent coment on this blog pointed out that many cultures – including our own until around the time of the Industrial Revolution – constructed many of their customs around the belief that women are nigh-uncontrollably
07:34:03 <elliott> lustful creatures whose sexuality has to be restrained by strict social controls and even the amputation of the clitoris (still routine in large parts of the Islamic world).]]
07:34:25 <kmc> i don't even
07:34:44 <elliott> Of course today our reflex is to dismiss this as pure fantasy with no other function than keeping half the human species in perpetual subjection. But some years ago I found myself asking “What if it really was like that?”
07:35:04 <ais523> elliott: now I'm trying to work out if the european colonization of the US happened before or after the industrial revolution
07:35:17 <elliott> We can find some support for this theory even in present time. I’ve noted before that in our modern, liberated era women seem not to be demanding as high a clearing price for sex as they should. In traditional terms, they’re being lustful.
07:35:28 <elliott> i think i will close the tab and just imagine what all the paragraphs i'm not reading could contain
07:35:36 <elliott> keep me satisfied for weeks
07:35:36 <kmc> how could they top that
07:36:10 <kmc> that's what she said
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07:38:47 <kmc> [crickets chirp]
07:39:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm reminded of the debate about sexism in computer games
07:39:40 <ais523> last time I thought about it, I came to the conclusion of "in Mario games, you can probably discover something useful by trying to work out if the plot would make sense / be sexist if you swapped the roles of Peach and Luigi"
07:40:02 <ais523> the problem is, although you can draw lots of nice conclusions that way, I'm not sure what they are
07:40:41 <elliott> that seems like the weirdest conclusion you could come to
07:41:00 <ais523> well I haven't made that much progress
07:41:16 <ais523> I think there's some genuine anti-female sexism in some of the games, but not all of them
07:41:30 <ais523> also, a bit of anti-male sexism; I decided to get offended that Kamek is male
07:41:30 <Jafet> Computer games are sexist?
07:41:33 <Jafet> http://cdn.unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/soul-calibur.jpg
07:41:41 <ais523> I don't think I've ever seen a character in that role be female
07:41:45 <kmc> there are a lot of games that don't explicitly hate women, but objectify them or tend to give them one-dimensional roles
07:41:45 <ais523> and it's a moderately derogatory one
07:41:57 <ais523> kmc: to be fair, they often give the men one-dimensional roles too
07:42:18 <ais523> SMB1 is basically "Mario jumps on things, Bowser breathes fireballs, Peach is in another castle"
07:43:30 <ais523> also, the game to use as a comparison for sexism games is Yoshi's Island
07:43:37 <ais523> because all the characters in Yoshi's Island are male
07:43:44 <ais523> (Luigi takes the role of "person who needs to be rescued")
07:44:03 <Jafet> Does it end in italian plumber boys love
07:44:06 <kmc> i'm still going to buy GTA V though
07:44:26 <ais523> Jafet: well they're babies at the time of Yoshi's Island
07:44:33 <ais523> I guess the Yoshis' genders were never stated
07:44:37 <ais523> but they don't exactly matter at all
07:45:36 <Jafet> Is the GTA series actually sexist, or is it just mindlessly violent
07:45:50 <ais523> hmm, I guess I consider objectification of women a slightly separate problem from sexism in general
07:46:08 <ais523> like, you can imagine a game that objectifies the men just as much
07:46:17 <ais523> a) is that still sexist? b) is that still a problem?
07:46:30 <Jafet> ais523: like which game
07:46:32 <kmc> ais523: the wider cultural context matters
07:46:37 <Jafet> sexually objectifies men
07:46:41 <kmc> like, in the real world women face more problems from being objectified
07:47:20 <ais523> Jafet: there's a male prostitute in neverwinter nights 1, together with two female prostitutes
07:47:45 <ais523> actually the main -ism problem with that series is that they keep on trying to put homosexuality into the games and being censored by their publishers
07:47:51 <kmc> Jafet: well a lot of the women in the game are strippers and prostitutes and such
07:47:52 <ais523> which leads to something of an anti-gay bias
07:48:00 <kmc> and you are encouraged to hurt them to varying degrees
07:48:33 <Jafet> ais523: well, for every male stripper in video games there are 100 female protagonists who are equally objectified
07:48:58 <kmc> being a sandbox game it does depend on how you play, naturally
07:49:16 <ais523> and if you made a game with a male stripper protagonist
07:49:23 <ais523> then people would probably be outraged
07:49:32 <kmc> i don't think GTA passes the Bechdel test
07:49:34 <Jafet> In the cultural context, a male stripper protagonist would be funny
07:49:35 <kmc> not sure though
07:49:40 <ais523> what's the Bechdel test?
07:49:47 <kmc> @google bechdel test
07:49:59 <Jafet> A female stripper protagonist would be serious sex business
07:50:23 <ais523> Jafet: that reminds me of Guild Council; someone pointed out how weird it was that they had a rule specifically banning female strippers
07:50:27 <ais523> rather than strippers in general
07:50:55 <ais523> kmc: bleh, while I'm waiting for Firefox to load and my window manager to find it, explain?
07:51:18 <kmc> does it a) have two female characters, b) who talk to each other, c) about something other than a man
07:51:37 <kmc> this is depressingly uncommon in popular fiction
07:51:54 <Jafet> @google bechdel test site:tvtropes.org
07:51:55 <lambdabot> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTest
07:51:56 <lambdabot> Title: The Bechdel Test - Television Tropes & Idioms
07:52:46 <ais523> they need a revision to that; the movie also needs to contain two men who talk about something other than a woman
07:52:55 <ais523> for it to be a completely fair test
07:52:57 -!- elliott has left.
07:53:08 <kmc> first of all almost every movie has that
07:53:10 <kmc> that's the point
07:53:17 <ais523> I'm mostly thinking of movies with no gendered characters
07:53:23 <kmc> secondly this is a classic annoying distraction tactic
07:53:40 <ais523> or don't they happen often?
07:54:01 <Jafet> Maybe they shouldn't have called it a test
07:54:03 <ais523> anyway, the first page of the list linked implies that more than half the movies actually pass the test
07:54:05 <Jafet> bechdel phenomenon
07:54:12 <ais523> but yeah, it's an interesting observation
07:54:49 <Jafet> The point isn't that film xyz passes or fails the "test"
07:55:15 <Jafet> Overall, most films don't meet the criteria, and hollywood as a whole fails the test
07:55:28 <Jafet> Somehow, this isn't surprising
07:56:23 <kmc> ais523: it's annoying when one group complains about discrimination and then another highly privileged group demands equal time to discuss a very rare / hypothetical scenario of them facing similar discrimination
07:56:26 <ais523> you'd expect it to historically fail most tests
07:56:27 <kmc> under the guise of "fairness"
07:56:38 <ais523> kmc: no, I was trying to filter out false positives/negatives
07:56:47 <kmc> well you said "for it to be a completely fair test"
07:56:50 <ais523> but omitting movies with no gendered characters, or no conversations, or the like
07:56:59 <ais523> yeah, meant the scientific meaning there
07:57:04 <ais523> I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I meant
07:57:10 <kmc> yeah, I think i understand now
07:57:19 <Jafet> You're latching onto the word "test"
07:58:06 <ais523> Jafet: I'm wanting to know how worrying it is
07:58:34 <ais523> it seems that recently, it's not been a problem, or perhaps Hollywood is deliberately manouvering around the letter of the rules
07:58:43 <ais523> and historically, clearly it was, and nobody should really be surprised at that
07:58:43 <Jafet> Well, it's a concrete illustration of something that is already quite obviously true
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07:59:52 <kmc> another question to ponder is how many days in your own life pass the bechdel test
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08:00:36 <ais523> kmc: many of them fail the "two female characters" test, because I'm often by myself (and not female)
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08:01:01 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's even a sensible question to ask, though
08:01:06 <Jafet> No excuses, you sexist pig
08:01:34 <kmc> yeah if you restrict to in person interactions then it is hard
08:01:40 <kmc> because i don't get out much, lately
08:01:43 <Jafet> I think kmc means the version with the genders swapped
08:01:57 <ais523> oh, I frequently fail the swapped-genders version too
08:02:02 <ais523> probably more often than the non-swapped-genders version
08:02:52 <Jafet> What if male characters talk about sexism on irc
08:02:59 <Jafet> Is that like, meta-bechdel
08:03:36 <Bike> http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4635
08:03:48 <ais523> Jafet: hmm… does a discussion about sexism count as a discussion about the opposite sex?
08:04:00 <Jafet> Bike automatically failed us all by linking to sinfest
08:04:06 <ais523> if so, there's some sort of meta-meta-bechdel involved
08:04:24 <Bike> anyway the point of the test is just to point out how many plots for women in movies revolve around romance
08:04:25 <kmc> Bike: haha
08:04:39 <ais523> Bike: yeah, that's actually the scariest/most interesting part of it
08:04:42 <Bike> talking about males doesn't really matter
08:04:55 <Bike> since said plots are about a male, not maledom
08:05:02 <ais523> failing test 1 or test 2 is more likely to happen due to setting reasons than anything else
08:05:08 <Bike> also it's just a silly test, don't over think it
08:05:11 <Bike> Twilight passes the test
08:05:39 <ais523> as in, whether sensible or not, the setting is one in which you wouldn't expect multiple female characters, or for them to be able to interact with each other
08:05:46 <ais523> ofc you can complain about movies frequently being given those settings :)
08:06:02 <ais523> btw, there's a comparable rule for RPGs
08:06:11 <Bike> what kinda movies do you watch
08:06:17 <ais523> that says that the vast majority of RPGs have either exactly 1 or exactly 3 female characters
08:07:01 <kmc> yeah it's not like passing or failing this test is a great guide as to whether your fiction is fair to women
08:07:08 <kmc> as Bike's link points out
08:07:21 <ais523> yep, it's an "we'd expect the inaccuracies to average out and still be scared at the result"
08:09:34 <ais523> anyway, overthinking things is what I do, sometimes
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08:09:40 <ais523> thanks for letting me know about it, anyway
08:10:00 <Bike> sometimes i forget that things like the bechdel test aren't a thing everybody knows
08:10:47 <ais523> Bike: did you overthink it when you were first introduced?
08:10:59 <Bike> i don't remember
08:11:24 <Bike> i saw it in the original comic which was fairly obviously unserious so i dunno
08:11:57 <ais523> actually the really interesting thing is the comments section
08:12:00 <ais523> observing people arguing on the internet is fun
08:12:06 <ais523> especially if you don't know the right answer
08:12:22 <ais523> and you can glean more from how heavily people argue minor points, than you can from the idea as a whole
08:12:32 <ais523> (like, even the fact that they're arguing, independent of the actual opinion)
08:12:43 <Bike> jesus fuck i've heard two people praise comments sections in the last day
08:12:56 <jconn> elliott: |syntax error
08:13:06 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo Bike"]} rest:"Bike"
08:13:49 <ais523> Bike: I'm praising them on the basis that their awfulness demonstrates something about humanity
08:14:01 <ais523> that's pretty backhanded praise
08:14:05 <elliott> ais523: if it doesn't help you, that's because you're not Bike.
08:14:15 <elliott> perhaps consider being Bike in future.
08:14:39 <Bike> ok we're back to sanity thanks ais.
08:15:24 <elliott> ais523: what is the problem
08:15:46 <ais523> elliott: the referent of "it" in your last-but-two line
08:15:56 <ais523> I can't figure out what it is
08:16:02 <ais523> and it's making the entire line hard to understand
08:17:49 <ais523> elliott: hmm… you're trying to be hard to understand intentionally?
08:18:00 <elliott> Bike: please explain to ais523
08:18:23 <lambdabot> echo <msg>. echo irc protocol string
08:19:00 <ais523> elliott: fwiw there was a massive misinterpretation all round just before you rageparted
08:19:15 <ais523> so the conversation may be confusing to you if you don't logread the bit in between
08:19:25 <ais523> (which you presumably won't, because you rageparted)
08:19:29 <ais523> but it's even more confusing to me
08:19:36 <elliott> are you suggesting this somehow differs from the usual sense #esoteric makes
08:20:03 <ais523> elliott: why would anyone hang out in a channel that generally made no sense?
08:21:35 <ais523> elliott: because I think it generally made more sense than this
08:21:40 <ais523> back when I normally paid attention
08:22:05 <ais523> perhaps we should make it make sense
08:22:16 <ais523> but implementing scapegoat or something would be nice
08:22:19 <elliott> no, why would you ruin #esoteric?
08:22:49 <ais523> elliott: hmm, are you actively trying to drive me away for some reason?
08:23:32 <elliott> perhaps you are trying to drive yourself away
08:24:49 <ais523> haha, when you said that, I went back and checked your last few lines for evidence of having connected ELIZA to the chat
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08:30:24 <ais523> yeah, I think I'm out of conclusions at this point
08:35:33 <ais523> kmc: btw, decided to do some scientific-ish sampling of my own (via reading comments): false negative rate is there but mostly insignificant (probably around 5-10%)
08:35:57 <ais523> quite a lot of missing data in that estimate, though
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09:33:38 <elliott> kmc: uh, are you planting mind viruses? I just got this urge to work on a tracing JIT for functional languages.
09:42:41 <Jafet> If you are a grad student, seek inoculation today. You are especially vulnerable
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11:14:40 <Jafet> Why do all the shell commands have dumb defaults
11:16:01 <ais523> they've probably never changed defaults since unix first edition
11:18:16 <Jafet> read doesn't default to -r, echo doesn't default to -E, find doesn't default to -print0 or -ls
11:18:42 <Jafet> The result is that any shellscript you write is probably insecure out the door
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12:00:06 <FreeFull> Jafet: Probably shouldn't use shell scripts to interact with the outside world
12:00:50 <Jafet> I should delete every shell script from this system then
12:00:54 <Jafet> Hm wait, how would I do that
12:01:31 <ais523> well -print0 isn't POSIX
12:01:51 <ais523> and also rather sucks for interactive use
12:02:09 <Jafet> find could default to -ls to a tty, and -print0 otherwise
12:04:33 <Jafet> powershell has a type system, and I would use it if it didn't SpellOut EveryCommand in GrandiloquentJargon
12:04:50 <Jafet> Also it probably doesn't run on linux but mainly that
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12:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ek6pe/plot_twist_for_the_social_network_the_winklevii/
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12:56:39 <Taneb> Won't it be very sad
12:56:43 <Taneb> If lens turns out to be a fad
13:05:11 <Taneb> It needs a few more lines to be a poem
13:17:20 <Jafet> Like void and reflection
13:17:24 <Jafet> And differentiation
13:17:28 <Jafet> And trifecta and comonad
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14:15:29 <ais523> function range_unscale(rx,x) {
14:15:31 <ais523> return [Math.ceil(rx[0]/nextfloat(x)),
14:15:32 <ais523> Math.floor(prevfloat(prevfloat(rx[1]+1)/nextfloat(x)))];
14:15:45 <ais523> what do you think of my cunning solution to floating-point rounding problems?
14:17:47 <ais523> btw, this performs the inverse of multiplying a range by a constant factor and truncating to the integer below
14:17:52 <nooodl> ais523: is that javascript?
14:17:57 <ais523> defining nextfloat and prevfloat in javascript was a little annoying
14:18:11 <nooodl> yeah i was wondering about the nextfloat/prevfloat implementations
14:18:13 <mroman_> Now I have to detect if somebody accesses the address of a variable.
14:18:24 <ais523> nooodl: it's basically just recursion
14:18:32 <ais523> keep finding successively nearer floats until the values don't change
14:18:39 <ais523> except implemented using iteratino
14:18:57 <ais523> actually this is one of those algorithms that's equally clear iterative or recursive
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14:21:03 <nooodl> i have no idea what the trick in range_unscale is. floats are weird
14:23:48 <ais523> nooodl: it's basically using the fact that floating-point arithmetic is accurate to 1 ULP
14:23:58 <ais523> in order to always fall just the right side of an integer for floor/ceil
14:28:41 <ais523> btw, what's nextfloat called in C99?
14:28:44 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it has a name
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14:38:10 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
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15:02:37 <elliott> kmc: did you know about pam_ssh
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16:13:49 <kmc> elliott: think so
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16:21:38 <elliott> kmc: imo why didn't you tell me about it and urxvtd
16:22:07 -!- btiffin has left.
16:24:08 <kmc> what's urxvtd
16:24:38 <elliott> kmc: it lets you run all your urxvts from one process, part of urxvt
16:24:48 <elliott> opening a terminal is so fast now
16:25:10 <mnoqy> was opening a terminal ever slow
16:25:14 <elliott> i bet it will even open one when i am urgently trying to kill -9!!!!
16:25:28 <elliott> you can't imagine the speed
16:25:38 <elliott> two lines!!! and my life is anew
16:30:24 <Bike> elliott: didi you sleep at some point
16:31:23 <elliott> mnoqy: its lifechangimf=g!!
16:31:57 <olsner> elliott: you may want to sleep, it's quite good for many reasons
16:32:34 <mnoqy> i had a good dream it was about mario and abiogenesis
16:32:39 <mnoqy> ~benefits of sleeping~
16:33:05 <elliott> i cat imagine a better two cincept
16:33:12 <Bike> is mario an rna strand
16:33:54 <kmc> also Jafet++ because "grandiloquent" is a great word
16:40:41 <nooodl_> elliott: whats the two lines
16:41:23 <nooodl_> oh i thought 2 lines to open a term (this'd be hilarious)
16:44:32 <olsner> it's funny how every star trek character seems to be smuggling illegal alien ale, wine, cider or other spirits
16:45:44 <Bike> illegal alien everclear
17:00:25 <kmc> illegal alien four loko
17:02:34 <kmc> 'Alexander Poleshchuk, who spent six months on Mir in 1993 said that when their personal reserves ran out, some on the space station would explore it for more, removing interior panels during their expeditions. "Sometimes we would bump into a bottle of cognac," he said. "What a joy it was."'
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17:05:55 <kmc> best space station ever
17:08:22 <Bike> man i don'nt know if i could do that
17:08:31 <Bike> there's like a foot between you and void...
17:08:38 <elliott> are you not erady rfor sopace
17:08:47 <Bike> no i am not ready for space
17:12:39 <Bike> i'll be here, in bed
17:17:48 <Sgeo> Space Station 13, only on BYOND?
17:18:07 <Sgeo> (Actually, I think there are attempts to port it elsewhere)
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19:15:37 <oerjan> <FireFly> Qings and koeens <-- Qings and koens, about the little known jewish merchants in china
19:16:51 <Bike> hm, i don't think the kaifeng jews were stereotypically merchants
19:19:23 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i can only included that "Guy Whom Randall Monroe Is Better Than" is now a standard xkcd cast member <-- (1) that's an incorrect use of "whom" (2) i don't think hat man is supposed to represent munroe, at least not his main personality.
19:19:57 <oerjan> Bike: see, they're so little known i didn't know about them when making the pun hth
19:20:50 <Bike> "kind of a shitty misdirection really"
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19:21:31 <oerjan> of course, it doesn't make it any better that the kid clearly _does_ represent munroe (as a kid)
19:22:27 <Sgeo> I should distract myself with DS9
19:23:10 <Sgeo> I just wish Amazon had a way to track already watched episodes the way Hulu does
19:26:23 <oerjan> btw why i consider that use of "whom" probably incorrect: to consider it correct, you would have to care about the distinction between "who" and "whom" (to use "whom" at all), but still not care about the distinction between "better than I" vs. "better than me"
19:26:36 <Bike> You're a nerd.
19:26:52 <oerjan> itt Bike is stating obvious facts
19:27:00 <Bike> Do you wear a pocket protector? I bet you do.
19:27:28 <oerjan> in fact i don't use shirts with pockets at all.
19:27:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it feels.. good, but weird, that Farscape has episodes that seem like they're dedicated to just revealing a character's past, but those episodes have an intense plot
19:28:26 <oerjan> although i keep my pens in the pocket of my sweater. fortunately none of them have leaked yet.
19:28:40 <Bike> oh you know what a pocket protector's for
19:29:08 <oerjan> Bike: i had to look it up to understand pocket protector nerd jokes, duh
19:29:26 <Bike> And why would you have to check? that's right. because you're a DOUBLE NERD
19:29:39 <myname> i thought of making a language based on half bits in terms of semidecidable, but i had no idea of what to do with it, yet. i thought of declaring one halfbit as the inverse of another halfbit to make it a full bit, but from that point on it would be pretty normal
19:29:40 <oerjan> (well in theory, in reality i don't remember how i learned it. actually it may have been from dilbert or something.)
19:29:47 <olsner> was that for older worse kinds of pens that leaked all the time? I've never had a pen leak
19:30:15 <Bike> myname: what do half bits have to do with semidecidability
19:30:22 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, and They've Got a Secret
19:30:33 <myname> Bike: you can either say if it's 1 or nothing
19:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> remember: don't watch the episode after rhapsody in blue
19:30:52 <Bike> that still has nothing to do with semidecidability, and also that's just a bit.
19:30:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wait what?
19:31:22 <myname> Bike: no, it's not. if you ask, if it's zero and it's not zero, it won't terminate
19:32:01 <Sgeo> Is it as continuity-irrelevant as Threshold though?
19:32:05 <Sgeo> What if it's important later
19:32:49 <oerjan> myname: have you looked at turkey bomb yet, i hear it has rather weirdly divided bits
19:33:11 <myname> i don't, but i'll check
19:34:23 <oerjan> olsner: i even managed to wash my sweater with a pen in it once and nothing significant resulted. so no, leaks are not a problem (this statement generalizes to all pens by induction hth)
19:34:33 <myname> oerjan: what the fuck?
19:35:06 <Bike> is that in relation to turkey bomb
19:35:09 <Bike> if yes: yes the fuck
19:35:31 <myname> oerjan: is that even implementable?
19:35:31 * oerjan doesn't actually know turkey bomb hth
19:36:12 <Bike> i googled 'turkey bomb' to see the definition again and got a bunch of reports of bombings in turkey :(
19:36:13 <oerjan> myname: there have been attempts to clarify it enough to implement some of it, i'm not sure they've succeeded
19:37:26 <oerjan> myname: btw would your semidecidable bits be similar to using two of haskell's True, False, undefined values?
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19:38:21 <myname> i didn't find any way to make the basic idea to a full language :(
19:38:41 <oerjan> also is this connected to upper/lower semicontinuousness and the semicolon topology
19:39:40 <oerjan> myname: i think there's an esolang where you can only set bits, not clear them
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19:40:55 <oerjan> although i may be confusing with Sqeql (sp?) where you can add but not delete cells from the queue
19:41:11 <ais523> IIRC Sceql, but I'm not sure either
19:41:17 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sceql
19:41:40 <myname> why do you know all that stuff? :D
19:42:36 <ais523> myname: I've almost certainly looked over every page on the wiki at least once, as a spam check
19:42:47 <ais523> so it's just a case of trying to remembre
19:42:55 <oerjan> i also do the spam check thing
19:43:07 <oerjan> although just on the recent changes
19:44:49 <oerjan> AnotherTest: iirc the strong force doesn't actually decrease fast, what happens is that once you separate enough the potential energy becomes so high that new quarks pop into existence, neutralizing the color charge.
19:45:44 <oerjan> from this emerges the nuclear force between nucleons, which i don't quite remember how fast it falls off.
19:45:48 <AnotherTest> aha, so it sort of can only act within a fixed radius, but in it is constant?
19:46:54 <AnotherTest> "the strong force does not diminish in strength with increasing distance"
19:48:29 <oerjan> myname: btw the reason i know about sceql is because it's a derivative of qdeql which i proved tc a while ago
19:49:29 <myname> i don't get the point behind sceql
19:50:06 <oerjan> sceql was an attempt to modify qdeql to make it tc when it was thought it wasn't.
19:51:01 <AnotherTest> the nuclear force does diminish in strength with distance apparently, although they don't have an expression for that
19:53:03 <oerjan> basically afaiu everything involving the strong and nuclear force are crazy complicated to calculate because things don't fall off fast enough to ignore complicated interactions
19:54:39 <oerjan> (this is an impression, i don't have much more than a popular science level of knowledge of this.)
19:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> there's also something to do with the particles mediating the forces having charges
19:55:17 <AnotherTest> Well, I'm just having some fun with it, not really trying to fully grasp this
19:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> like, photons are electrically neutral, so you can leave them out of some calculations
19:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> but gluons have a colour charge and you have to include that
19:56:10 <oerjan> although i think the weak force has charged mediators but still falls off fast enough to be handleable
19:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> the weak force continues to confuse me despite several attempts to work out what it actually is
19:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> all i know is it mediates some quark-lepton interactions
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20:15:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> sanfrankeeskensis <-- sanfrankenstein
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20:21:48 <oerjan> THAT'S NOT A WORD SHEESH
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20:37:42 <oerjan> <Bike> i really need to get to completing my gf-operative-partial-evaluation fantasy <-- that sounded much better when i thought gf was for "girlfriend" hth
20:38:59 <Bike> girlfriend operative?
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20:40:36 <mnoqy> girlfriend partial evaluation fantasy
20:44:36 <oerjan> <elliott> what if @'s name is zero characters WHAT THEN <-- by the time @'s name is ready the chinese will have taken over the world so just make it a single han character hth
20:59:03 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> i think we need more clever well-recognized idioms based on nematodes
20:59:08 <HackEgo> 1037) <Bike> i think we need more clever well-recognized idioms based on nematodes
21:04:42 <Bike> `pastequotes Bike
21:04:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6170
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21:06:44 <Bike> i'm really not a fan of how that presents as a download
21:07:12 <Taneb> I've actually /voted/ in the Eurovision Song Contest
21:08:39 <Bike> "DIMBEFACT: LITERALLY TRANSLATED, THIS SONG ACTS AS A DETAILED APOLOGY FOR VOLCANO-RELATED FLIGHT DELAYS AND BANK COLLAPSES #EUROVISION" you voted for iceland right
21:09:09 <Bike> "A Danish TV channel once used images from Assassin's Creed to illustrate a news report on Syria " and against denmark
21:11:49 <Taneb> I did vote for an island country with a low population
21:12:05 <Taneb> And a weird language
21:12:26 <Bike> arabic isn't very weird!!! statistically
21:12:50 <Taneb> Bike, an Arabic language written in the Latin alphabet?
21:13:08 <Taneb> (apparently, it's pretty much a mix of Tunisian Arabic and Italian)
21:13:19 <Bike> (yes i know it's weird that's why i guessed it)
21:13:51 <Taneb> It's got a fair bit of English in it, to
21:13:55 <Bike> i don't think it's actually intelligible with MSA
21:14:41 <Taneb> Bike, I've heard a Tunisian who speaks Italian can generally work out what's what
21:14:53 <Bike> "Ġeografikament, l-Ewropa hi parti tas-superkontinent ta' l-Ewrasja" well i can understand this
21:15:48 <Bike> and supposedly a maltese speaker could not understand "Ir-raġel qiegħed fid-dar"
21:15:54 <Bike> oh, speaks italian, duh.
21:16:15 <Bike> like unerstanding english by speaking german and french.
21:17:39 <Taneb> So you can tell what I mean when I say "The sewer sows seeds in the sewer so the sow sees her son"
21:21:07 <fizzie> Taneb: Did you vote with the MOBILE APPLICATION?
21:21:11 <fizzie> I heard there's one now.
21:21:15 <Taneb> fizzie, not available in the UK
21:21:21 <Taneb> I did vote with a mobile
21:21:42 <fizzie> Doesn't voting cost money?
21:21:54 <Taneb> Yeah, 15 whole pence
21:23:54 <fizzie> These filler bits are... are quite.
21:24:16 <Taneb> We're getting the life and times of Bonnie Tyler
21:24:38 <fizzie> Oh, I thought these were universal, since there was nothing Finland-specific.
21:24:53 <Taneb> Oh, it's back to Sweden
21:24:59 <Taneb> Maybe the UK's just weird
21:25:35 <fizzie> There've been a couple Sweden-travel-documentary-parody kind of things.
21:25:52 <Taneb> Wow, look at that efficient recycling system
21:26:01 <Taneb> I'm definitely gonna visit Sweden now
21:26:04 <fizzie> I guess you're getting this same song then.
21:26:48 <Taneb> Sweden sounds like southern England
21:26:53 <fizzie> Some of this I think would have applied to Finnish stereotypes too.
21:26:57 <fizzie> At least that previous train bit.
21:27:19 <Taneb> The queueing is very UK
21:27:28 <Taneb> And I've heard the train bit about the South
21:27:57 <olsner> apparently we have no other kind of "culture" than trying to make jokes about how swedes are odd
21:29:46 <oerjan> olsner: actually i think it's stereotypically swedish to think swedes don't really have a culture hth
21:31:15 <oerjan> also possibly stereotypical, in sweden, bringing up any _actual_ swedish culture is considered racism.
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21:34:53 <olsner> as the other stereotypes that one is also largely true
21:41:09 <olsner> ooh, here's the part where they do countries and numbers in french again
21:41:56 <fizzie> olsner: Thank's for giving your top points to Denmark and Norway, and zero to Finland, you Swede.
21:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> 'define the determinant of a matrix' is such a nasty little question
21:43:19 <olsner> fizzie: Finland's song was not good, hth
21:43:30 <Bike> the product of the eigenvalues?
21:45:33 <fizzie> olsner: That shouldn't matter.
21:46:03 <olsner> it would be very unfair to the countries with less bad songs if you got more points
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21:47:38 <fizzie> No, I mean, the whole point is to vote for neighbor countries and such.
21:50:20 <Bike> in any case there are so many ways you could define it that mandating any particular one would be silly
21:51:05 <Bike> 'product of the eigenvalues' is nice and short
21:51:05 <Phantom_Hoover> the reason for 'lol' is that the order we were taught things was determinants -> eigenvalues
21:51:22 <Bike> @google anti-determinants
21:51:23 <lambdabot> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117182/
21:51:24 <lambdabot> Title: Transfer RNA determinants for translational editing by Escherichia coli valyl-tR ...
21:51:51 <olsner> at least eigenvalues and eigenvectors have some sort of meaning, I've never understood what those determinants do
21:51:52 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.axler.net/DwD.html
21:52:50 <Bike> determinants first is the usual way to teach but i dunno why
21:52:50 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, from my perspective determinants aren't so much one thing as this gestalt of equivalent definitions and algorithms for calculating the
21:52:56 <Bike> because: what olsner said
21:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> none of which are really more definitive than the others
21:53:45 <olsner> but I probably also learned to get eigenthings out of determinants, I just forgot all of that
21:55:15 <mnoqy> i learned determinants starting with an axiomatic definition and then deriving a formula after proving a bunch of things about them..........i think eigenthings came shortly after that?
21:57:06 <Bike> i hope there's a thing called an eigendeterminant that's like an eigenvalue but for a matrix being transformed by a tensor. that would be good.
21:58:32 <shachaf> mnoqy: how should i learnn determinants
21:58:38 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you recommend "your method"
21:59:06 <mnoqy> Bike: By means of dynamic equilibrium considerations, the reaction of the point supports is imposed by using the Lagrange multipliers method. This yields the eigendeterminant of a constrained panel by appropriately coupling the response of a suitably large number of natural vibration modes of the corresponding unconstrained structural element.
22:01:10 <Bike> shachaf: imo read DwD
22:01:48 <shachaf> "Down with Determinants!"?
22:02:01 <Bike> yes i linked it right there.
22:02:49 <shachaf> Bike: i wasn't here at the time do you expect me to read scrollbackwards what kind of person do you think i am
22:03:05 <Bike> oh i have it as "antideterminants.pdf" on my hard drive no wonder
22:04:19 <Bike> that;s mean, shachaf.
22:04:48 <Bike> down with bisulphates?
22:04:55 <shachaf> Down with Bikes (that's you)
22:06:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I've decided to try to finish DS9 before watching more Farscape
22:07:04 <copumpkin> I've always been annoyed at how expensive these things are: http://www.lapanzanella.com/croccantini-crackers.html
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22:07:44 <FreeFull> copumpkin: That's the solution to most culinary dilemmas
22:07:53 <FreeFull> Assuming you know how to cook anyway
22:08:00 <FreeFull> Otherwise you end up with more problems
22:09:39 <copumpkin> the fact that I just spent an hour making two packets' worth of them goes to show how much I value my time though :P
22:12:02 <olsner> you should've made a bigger batch?
22:12:14 <olsner> and now that you know how, it might not take a full hour
22:13:39 <copumpkin> but I didn't know how they'd turn out
22:14:25 <copumpkin> now I'll start making 10lb batches of them
22:14:28 <Taneb> We've broken the 20!
22:14:33 <copumpkin> and I need to get all the cheese to go with them
22:23:11 <olsner> or start making your own cheese too
22:23:41 <copumpkin> but I don't trust myself to make the moldy stuff or aged stuff :P
22:23:49 <olsner> curdling milk etc is not too hard
22:23:58 <olsner> you do need a ton of milk though
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22:24:27 <copumpkin> I tried making mozzarella once but heated it up too much and made something closer to ricotta
22:24:33 <copumpkin> still wasn't bad but I prefer mozzarella
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22:43:10 <zzo38> The fields to vote on are: qualify, theme, puzzle, original, technical, literature, plot, difficulty, gameplay, atmosphere, goodjob, overall. Do you have some idea of what weight should be assigned to each one?
22:43:56 <Bike> there's an overall category which is then incorporated into a combined measure?
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22:50:29 <tswett> Sgeo: so I think I've figured out why I don't like /r/atheism. I think that one of the most important traits a person can have is the ability to entertain points of view they disagree with.
22:51:00 <tswett> It seems like almost everyone who posts in /r/atheism accomplishes nothing besides showing that they don't have this trait.
22:51:06 <tswett> And so I find the whole thing pretty sad.
22:52:10 <zzo38> Well, you should still think of them, agree or disagree, to learn about it.
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23:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, i agree except i'm not completely sure what you mean by 'entertain' there
23:13:20 <tswett> Think about, consider the implications of.
23:13:32 <Bike> i thought the problem with r/atheism was that it was a shitty hive, but it's been a while
23:15:30 <Bike> good to know i'm not stereotyping them too badly
23:18:27 <Bike> complexes are your friend ph
23:19:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i prefer arbitrary fields because you can just pretend they're R and avoid thinking too much
23:19:27 <Bike> i think it needs to be algebraically complete maybe
23:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_variety thanks google i'm sure that's what bike meant
23:22:11 <Bike> you can't take a root of an arbitrary real-coefficient polynomial and have it be real
23:22:14 <Bike> i forget the word
23:22:30 <Bike> closed, algebraically closed
23:24:22 <Bike> i guess what i'm saying is that i forget if a real matrix necessarily has real eigenvalues
23:24:59 <Bike> "Not every real matrix has real eigenvalues, but every complex matrix has at least one complex eigenvalue." k then
23:25:22 <shachaf> Bike: you're going to have to need to study some lambda calculus hth
23:25:30 <Bike> hey go fuck yo self
23:26:00 <Bike> ain't give a damn
23:26:54 <Sgeo> I think people on Reddit are currently angry at me
23:28:26 <Bike> what's the eigenvalue of the y combinator
23:28:38 <shachaf> Sgeo: reddit doesn't matter hth
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23:34:30 <Sgeo> "My recommendations might not apply as much to you, because according to my judgements of quality of fiction, DS9 should be grater than VOY, so since your judgment of those two is different, it's likely you'd disagree with my other judgments"
23:34:31 <fizzie> Possibly also "your place or mine?"
23:35:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, in your opinion, is Voyager better than Stargate Infinity?
23:35:54 <Sgeo> Is Voyager better than Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing: The Movie by Uwe Boll would be?
23:36:51 <Bike> Sgeo: i'd watch the fuck out of such a movie fyi
23:37:11 <pikhq> Oh, that'd probably be amazing.
23:37:15 <pikhq> Terrible, but amazing.
23:37:59 <Koen_> oh oops apologies Sgeo turns out I've got a hl on stargate and this irc client makes notices and hls look alike
23:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the plot is resolved by reversing the truck in a circle faster than the speed of light
23:38:24 <Sgeo> Stargate Universe != Stargate Infinity
23:38:49 <Koen_> what's stargate infinity why haven't I heard about it
23:39:20 <Sgeo> A non-canonical animated Stargate show for kids
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23:39:57 <Koen_> ohhhhhhh yeah I remember deciding to watch it and then changing my mind a few minutes into it
23:40:52 <Koen_> I haven't watched Voyager but I'm pretty sure it should be better than any hypothetical Uwe Boll movie
23:41:13 <pikhq> This is because you're an optimist.
23:41:45 <Sgeo> Unless you like Voyager and dislike DS9: In this case you might dislike anything that Phantom_Hoover considers to be good
23:41:54 <Sgeo> Also: Phantom_Hoover: Watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica
23:41:54 <Koen_> though I'm in the middle of what appears to be an 8 hour show about a bank robbing so I'll finish that first
23:42:31 <Sgeo> Not "instead". And make sure it's spoiler-free.
23:42:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I second the recommendation.
23:43:03 <pikhq> It is stellar, though you won't be able to recognize this for a couple episodes.
23:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ok well somebody mail me a box set as part of the #esoteric Exchange Of Things Program
23:43:38 <pikhq> Before then you'll be wondering "what the fuck is this Sailor Moon shit"
23:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i enjoyed sailor moon some time in my distant youth
23:48:00 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, incidentally, there are only 12 30-minute episodes
23:48:12 <Sgeo> So it's not like it will take a long time to watch the entire thing
23:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> also as i have mentioned before i am unable to torrent things on university internet
23:48:38 <Sgeo> Compared to how many hours of Farscape?
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23:49:32 <Koen_> is Farscape currently running? or is it over
23:49:52 <Koen_> cause when I watch shows that are still running they usually get cancelled pretty quickly I wouldn't want to be responsible for that
23:50:13 <Phantom_Hoover> it was also cancelled before its time (i blame stargate)
23:50:45 <Koen_> well Stargate was cancelled too
23:51:49 <Koen_> it was kinda getting old, in the 8th season every episode made me feel like the actors were telling us "ok we don't honestly know if it's over or not so we're gonna stall just a little bit without doing anything decisive like getting a fourth team member or anything"
23:52:39 <Koen_> and then in the 9th and 10th seasons "ok looks like we're here for sixty or so more episodes so hum let us introduce you to The Gods Who Are Even More Powerful Than The Previous Gods
23:52:41 <pikhq> I'm honestly irritated it wasn't cancelled earlier.
23:52:45 <Sgeo> 8th season finale was more of a series finale
23:52:52 <Sgeo> (Or was that a different season?)
23:53:00 <pikhq> Yeah. 8th season it should've *died*.
23:53:10 <pikhq> And then it was all "... dammit we're still here."
23:53:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember hearing that they did a big final finale and then they got continued
23:53:27 <Koen_> I seem to recall the 8th season final was something completely nonsensical about time travel
23:53:35 <Sgeo> And then they start a new story arc, and the series gets canceled in the middle of the new story arc
23:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas farscape was scheduled for a 4th and 5th season then cancelled at the end of the 4th with no warning
23:53:48 <Sgeo> Koen_, no, that was just wasting time after the ACTUAL finale
23:54:16 <Koen_> ohhhh right you mean the awesome battle over artantica
23:54:17 <pikhq> And then they got to cram a season into a film.
23:54:50 <pikhq> Sci-Fi channel: "what do you mean, appeal to sci-fi fans?"
23:54:50 <Koen_> I'm gonna look it up Bike
23:55:43 <Koen_> ok wikipedia says antarctica, close enough
23:56:05 <Koen_> I seem to recall someone in stargate atlantis making a joke about their new planet
23:56:08 <Sgeo> Koen_, hmm, thought that was an earlier season
23:56:23 <Koen_> Sgeo: hmmmmmmm maybe
23:56:55 <Koen_> Colonel Whatshisname from seasons 9 and 10 is supposed to have been in the battle and I think the battle was from a while before
23:57:13 <Koen_> and Anubis makes several appearances after having been defeated
23:57:22 <Sgeo> Koen_, it's so confusing to watch Farscape, because that actor was the main character in Farscape
23:57:29 <Koen_> oh right season 8th's final is the one where the replicators get killed
23:57:45 <Koen_> ok I'm gonna watch farscape
23:57:57 <Koen_> that was so ridiculous
23:58:12 <Koen_> the replicators are basically supposed to be impossible to get rid of
23:58:21 <Koen_> don't you just love it Phantom_Hoover
23:58:42 <Koen_> because Hannibal Smith that's why
00:23:13 <Sgeo> I can only assume that these commercials cost quite a bit more than usual
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01:08:49 <Sgeo> Now I have to wait for November for new Doctor Who
01:12:27 <kmc> now i have to wait for november to not care about doctor who
01:12:56 <shachaf> i care about doctor who so little that i don't even own a television
01:13:03 <Jafet> kmc: maybe a time lord can help you with that
01:13:48 <shachaf> kmc: how long do you have to wait to not care about breaking bad
01:17:50 <kmc> i will always care about brekaing bad
01:18:37 <kmc> the final batch of episodes starts August 11
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01:43:33 <zzo38> What is the kind of logic that corresponds to a SQL database?
01:46:36 <Bike> trivalent logic or something
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01:53:51 <shachaf> kmc: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ku-ma-me/20090916/p1
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02:01:57 <Bike> oh that was a good quine
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02:21:56 <Sgeo> Is it really a quine?
02:22:23 <mnoqy> yes please let's argue what does QUINE really mean
02:22:24 <Sgeo> Is ruby thatprogram.rb the same as thatprogram.rb, or is it different...
02:22:25 <Bike> suffer not the false quine to live
02:22:44 <Sgeo> Although then again, the composition of those interpreters+compilers...
02:22:51 <Sgeo> It's certainly a quine in that
02:25:42 <kmc> the notorious Q.U.I.N.E.
02:28:12 <Bike> man quine should have rapped. i'd be so up for that. we need more rapping logicians.
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03:00:17 <Jafet> Rage against the turing machine
03:05:40 <zzo38> I was thinking about how to have some kind of logic, which has left conjunction, right conjunction, left disjunction, right disjunction, left implication, right implication, and neutral conjunction. What is this?
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03:28:35 <zzo38> What are your opinions about philosophy of science and related things?
03:30:39 <zzo38> and about philosophy in general?
03:42:44 <zzo38> My own opinion is that mathematics is the real reality, not the "Real World Out There".
03:46:23 <BillyZane> i think, however, it's important to understand the meaning or implications of an equation or theorem, at least that's what i try to do. that can be difficult
03:46:50 <zzo38> I thought you are hi.
03:47:20 <BillyZane> you know that feeling when you see a girl you like in a crowd and you feel you have to speak to her or you'll regret it for the rest of your life? well i didn't speak to her
03:48:51 <zzo38> That feeling isn't the case to me.
03:50:01 <BillyZane> i saw her in a crowd at a live show friday night at UCSD
03:50:30 <BillyZane> i stood right behind her for over an hour, the whole time we were grinding on each other. she was really really cute
03:51:03 <BillyZane> asian, about 5'6, ponytail, thin, high cheek bones
03:51:08 <zzo38> Well, I don't "see a girl [I] like in a crowd and feel [I] have to speak to her".
03:51:25 <BillyZane> right when i was going to make my move, her friend grabs her and she runs off
03:51:47 <BillyZane> i would have really preferred being rejected
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03:53:58 <zzo38> I am not trying to be impatient.
03:54:05 <BillyZane> don't you get that i feel like shit right now
03:54:16 <BillyZane> that i liked this girl and i blew it, and i'll never see her again
03:54:29 <BillyZane> there's other fish in the sea, sure
03:54:44 <BillyZane> but i saw her and thought, this chick is special. you know how rare that is
03:55:06 <zzo38> What I can understand is that you didn't like what happen. However, no, I don't know how rare or common it is.
04:08:10 <kmc> watching this amazon comedy pilot about silicon valley
04:08:30 <kmc> "If we don't capitalize soon we're going to end up working at your parents' bed and breakfast!"
04:08:36 <kmc> or you could get like... a regular programming job?
04:09:16 <kmc> actually it would be kind of cool if the show was about people who think they are startup geniuses but are actually totally unemployable
04:09:22 <kmc> however I don't think that's what they're going for
04:10:18 <kmc> mostly it's about how nerds (male of course) can't talk to women, and other similarly fresh comedy themes
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05:26:45 <Jafet> It could be a regular programming job at his parents' bed-and-breakfast
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09:34:38 <FreeFull> Jafet: Bed and breakfast places don't need much programming though
09:43:12 <Jafet> It could be a silicon valley bed-and-breakfast
09:44:01 <FreeFull> Maybe if it has robots serving people
09:44:39 <Jafet> You need to invest in the innkeeper's stock, but not to the point of buying out the entire place, unless you're Google
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10:37:04 <Taneb> elliott, remember when you were making that Minecraft server in Haskell?
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14:33:30 <Gregor> Am I crazy, or has github been down for nearly a whole day.
14:37:25 <fizzie> "Another crash happened while handling crash!" --Google Earth
14:38:27 <fizzie> (Or http://sprunge.us/jXdW to be a bit more verbose.)
14:38:42 <Taneb> Gregor, I think you are crazy
14:47:24 <Gregor> Why does github not respond for me ._.
14:47:36 <Gregor> status.github.com works and says it's up!
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15:31:14 <elliott> Taneb: also what about it; ion: yes
15:32:47 <olsner> Gregor: there are plenty of plausible explanations that don't involve you being crazy
15:34:24 <ion> elliott: Cool
15:34:48 <Gregor> I still can't load github :(
15:35:06 <Taneb> Gregor, clear cache and refresh?
15:38:39 <Gregor> Even switching browsers doesn't make it load.
15:38:47 <Gregor> It won't even load in lynx.
15:39:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: host: not found
15:40:30 <Gregor> Tell me what IP address github should resolve to ^^
15:40:45 <Gregor> Yeah, 's not a DNS issue.
15:40:48 <Gregor> My DNS and 8.8.8.8 agree.
15:41:00 <elliott> maybe your DNS is being mitm'd
15:42:17 <ion> 204.232.175.90 here
15:42:23 <olsner> I'm also getting 204.232.175.90
15:42:36 <Gregor> Is Comcast blocking github? X-D
15:42:44 <ion> They may be, accidentally.
15:42:53 <olsner> probably, it's like filled with virus linux stuff
15:42:55 <ion> Mistakes with routing happen.
15:48:18 <Gregor> WTF, it loads fine through school.
15:48:34 <Gregor> So it really is just my home connection.
15:50:16 <fizzie> Maybe you have THE VIRUS.
15:50:21 <fizzie> I hear that's usually the case.
16:16:12 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:38:05 <ion> Have you tried turning it off and on again?
16:44:56 <olsner> I'm sure github are willing to turn off github to help debug Gregor's internet problem
16:48:39 <olsner> hmm, found this comment in an old program I wrote: "It's essentially an implementation of APL's encode function (T), [...]"
16:48:46 <olsner> apparently I once knew APL
16:54:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:54:58 <Taneb> I once knew how to make awesome palindromes.
16:55:05 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:55:52 <Gregor> I know how to make awesome palindromes semord nilape mose wa ekam ot wohw onki.
17:11:16 <olsner> Taneb: did you also know how to make awesome palindromes containing the word palindrome?
17:18:16 <FreeFull> A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal – Panama!
17:18:39 -!- atriq has joined.
17:18:40 <FreeFull> > reverse "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal – Panama!"
17:18:41 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
17:18:49 <FreeFull> > reverse "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal - Panama!"
17:18:50 <lambdabot> "!amanaP - lanac a ,noep a ,stah eros ,raj a ,hsac ,oloR a ,tur a ,mapS ,sn...
17:19:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services).
17:20:01 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
17:22:11 <Sgeo> https://www.smore.com/clippy-js
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18:06:09 <Taneb> Is Azerbaijan the only Eurovision winner to share a border with Iran?
18:06:24 <Taneb> #important questions
18:07:00 <fizzie> Taneb: Turkey won in 2003.
18:07:10 <Taneb> #important answers
18:07:17 <Sgeo> There was a chat program that used Microsoft Agent
18:07:27 <Vorpal> I liked the song from Greece this time around. It was funky.
18:07:29 <Sgeo> I'd mess with people by sending the sleeping animation, the agent wouldn't wake up
18:07:40 <Sgeo> Got banned from ... talking to a bot, I think, that's kind of weird
18:09:15 <Bike> is armenia in the EU? probably not
18:09:53 <Vorpal> Bike, Israel isn't even in Europe, yet they are in eurovision. Wtf
18:10:03 <Sgeo> Also, I found Creatures because of the (tenuous connection) fact that they both use the word 'agent'
18:10:11 <fizzie> You don't have to be "in Europe", you just need to be in EBU.
18:10:15 <Bike> Vorpal: yeah that happens with a lot of europe things.
18:10:25 <Bike> basically lolisrael.
18:10:41 <Bike> the EBU seems to include, like, libya.
18:11:54 <fizzie> (And I guess Algeria too. Guess all that coast is "good enough".)
18:12:05 <olsner> the "associated members" seems to include pretty much everything
18:12:11 <Bike> huh, morroco participated
18:12:19 <Bike> in 1980 only though
18:12:22 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EBU_Member.svg
18:12:26 <Taneb> Morocco has applied to join the EU
18:12:33 <Taneb> I think Israel has, too
18:13:06 <Bike> "Tunisia was to perform fourth in the 1977 Contest's running order. The reason for the country's withdrawal was never officially established; rumours suggest ERTT did not want to compete with Israel"
18:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the bureaucratic overmind in the shadows behind eurovision
18:13:35 <fizzie> "The official rules of the Eurovision Song Contest are long, technical, and ever-changing," starts the Wikipedia article about them.
18:13:46 <Bike> hm scotland tried to enter
18:13:52 <fizzie> Sadly, there's no [weasel words] or any other tags there.
18:13:52 <Bike> #1 reason for independence right there
18:14:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if there is a tie?
18:14:24 <Bike> the EBU is dissolved and the soviet union takes over broadcasting powers in eurasia
18:14:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The current tie-breaking rule is that, in the event that two or more countries tie for first place and for other places the song that received points from the greater number of countries is the winner. This system is sometimes called the "count-back". If there is still a tie, the second tie-breaker is to count the number of countries who assigned twelve points to each entry in the tie. Tie-breaks continue with ten points, eight points, and so on
18:15:13 <Bike> i don't really get the EU anyway. I mean Cyprus. What's going on there.
18:15:13 <fizzie> (There was a tie in 1991, with a slightly different rule in place then.)
18:15:54 <Taneb> Bike, Cyprus asked nicely
18:16:44 <fizzie> Also, they had a four-way tie in 1969, and declared all four winners.
18:17:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember that, what was that about?
18:18:05 <fizzie> I remember watching the 2003 contest, when Turkey won by a margin of 2; nothing else about it, except that small margin. We all were certainly on the edges of our seats!
18:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> after like the 4th year in a row where the contest was won through bloc voting he basically just upped and left
18:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> then they replaced him with graham norton who was just not the same
18:18:32 <Vorpal> okay, I haven't watched since the previous time it was in Sweden.
18:18:37 <Vorpal> So that is like 10 years ago?
18:18:51 <Vorpal> okay maybe the time before that then
18:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> also he only did the commentary in the uk and maybe ireland
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18:19:43 <fizzie> It was in Sweden in 1999, and then in 2012.
18:19:54 <fizzie> And the Finnish commentary is always pretty awful.
18:20:10 <Vorpal> yeah I watched in 1999 and now again in 2013
18:20:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice name
18:20:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, sorry, 2000 and 2013; I was stating Swedish winner years.
18:21:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so even more than 5 or 6 years then
18:21:25 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover 2006
18:21:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the UK singer was pretty horrible IMO.
18:21:36 <Vorpal> Not a good singing voice at all
18:21:37 <Taneb> Same year as Lithuania entered with "We are the winners"
18:21:50 <Taneb> Vorpal, it's pretty much traditional that the UK sucks
18:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> afaict the uk strategy is now "pick some long-forgotten star of yesteryear and have them sing generic crap"
18:22:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:22:11 <Vorpal> Really the Greek contribution was the best by far.
18:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they got bonnie tyler this year and for fuck's sake, if you're going to get bonnie tyler go the whole hog and do the whole overwrought 80s thing
18:22:44 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, who would you have chosen?
18:22:50 <Bike> http://storify.com/thomas_wiegold/esc-2013-syria-angle/embed i think this is the msot i know of eurovision
18:23:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it was so sad when benedict cumberbatch lost
18:23:16 <elliott> god dammit why didn't i think of that joke at the time
18:23:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the joke is it was engelbert humperdinck
18:23:47 <elliott> which sounds like someone making fun of benedict cumberbatch's name
18:24:26 <Bike> q ffor british people: does cumberbatch actually exist or is he just a joke
18:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> although i don't think cumberbatch would make it through due to the american ~geek~ market not having a vote
18:24:40 <elliott> Bike: he's a character created by a popular comedian
18:24:41 <Taneb> Bike, nobody knows
18:25:14 <elliott> engelbert humperdinck isn't his real name
18:25:22 <Bike> i'm thinking of http://www.theonion.com/video/meet-the-man-inside-the-nicolas-cage-costume,27318/ here
18:25:31 <elliott> he stole it from a real guy
18:26:00 <Taneb> (Phantom_Hoover, I remember when they worked out he was really dead because his star was still intact because they used it to kill a cyberman)
18:26:21 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, who are the "we" here
18:26:54 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, eh I don't even remember their thing
18:26:58 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Hey, you made it to the finals.
18:27:04 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, anyway the Greek were by far best
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18:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, my dad says nicolas cage is 'the best actor of his generation' trufax
18:27:30 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, didn't watch eurovision?
18:27:32 <fizzie> Greece had the "free booze" song.
18:27:32 <Bike> «Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, cracked to the outlet: “I am delighted that the Eurocrats have failed to crush national stereotyping, which is what makes Europe a great continent."» Q for british people: does europe actually exist or is it just a joke
18:27:56 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: I didn't actually go through that torture
18:28:01 <Taneb> Bike, UKIP, I am afraid, very much does exist, much as we'd like it not to
18:28:44 <fizzie> Finland was third-last, which I think is quite average for us.
18:29:05 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, eh I had fun with a couple of friends, riffing on the bad singing. One of my friends is an actual musician (working as a software engineer nowdays, pretty good at both though). So he had fun telling the rest of us how they performed technically
18:30:09 <AnotherTest> I agree, it can be humorous at times, although I get annoyed too much to enjoy those times
18:30:09 <fizzie> Denmark and Azerbaijan both won their respective semi-finals, and were #1 and #2 in the final, so I guess people have at least been reasonably consistent.
18:30:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: name a single actor you would be sadder about dying
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18:31:20 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/GhAAB5N.jpg soviets: stay out of portland, bastards
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18:31:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, is Tom Hanks the Mission Impossible guy or the Forest Gump guy
18:32:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think the correct answer was probably bill murray
18:32:27 <Bike> the scientologist
18:32:32 <Bike> uhhhhh what's his actual name help
18:32:48 <Bike> no the other guy
18:32:52 <Bike> ...is tom hanks a scientologist
18:32:53 <fizzie> I wonder if the people who know they're going to have to be arranging the whole thing if their country wins try to vote for the most promising competitor, just in case that'd help.
18:32:58 <elliott> Bike: i mean the other guy
18:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ok look the reason it would be worst if tom hanks died is because he is doing a tv series of american gods sometime soon
18:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> is bill murray doing a tv series of american gods sometime soon? a: no
18:34:26 <fizzie> There's an Angry Birds animated series nowadays, something I learned the other day. (Makes sense.)
18:34:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, imagine if Greece had won, they couldn't have afforded it
18:34:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Having a zero-budget version could've been rather interesting, though.
18:35:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, sure, host it in a barn somewhere, put up a couple of spotlights, and that's it
18:35:46 <fizzie> Someone's dad's old camera phone for the video stream.
18:36:19 <fizzie> It does VGA-resolution video, that's pretty respectable.
18:36:38 <Vorpal> is 800x600 VGA? I forget
18:37:03 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg <-- pretty crazy
18:37:47 <fizzie> The megapixel curves are nice.
18:38:00 <Vorpal> My work monitors are WUXGA it seems, and I'm currently using a WSXGA+
18:39:18 <fizzie> The graph doesn't quite have the full list, anyway.
18:40:20 <Vorpal> I used to have a 5:3 monitor at one point, think it was 1280x768
18:41:06 <Vorpal> I also had a SXGA+ at one point
18:41:29 <fizzie> I had a 1280x1024 screen, that's 5:4; it's kind of the strange exception from 4:3 in the "standard" list of resolutions.
18:41:47 <Vorpal> Yep, had one of those too
18:41:47 <Bike> hm does this involve smooth numbers, like old music
18:42:00 <myname> i have a 1600x768 screen, that's 25:12 and pretty awesome
18:42:14 <Vorpal> myname, that is not even listed
18:42:26 <Bike> still 5-smooth
18:42:43 <Vorpal> I seem to remember a 1440x1024 one?
18:43:03 <Bike> my netbook is uh... 128:75. ok
18:43:23 <Vorpal> Too lazy to calculate 1440x1280
18:43:34 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `R.%' (imported from Data.Ratio)
18:43:40 <Bike> ok well it's 9:8
18:43:43 <myname> 25:12 is like "yeah, 4:3 on the left and two terminals on the rright"
18:43:56 <Bike> f u haskell more like where are my ratios skell
18:44:17 <Bike> yeah but irrationals are also in R!!!!
18:44:21 <Bike> > 1440 R.% 1280
18:44:41 <myname> 9:8 sounds pretty crazy
18:44:50 <Bike> > 1024 R.% 600 -- mine
18:45:32 <Bike> (still 5-smooth)
18:45:32 <Vorpal> Speaking of which, what good monitor brands/models are there? I want a good pair for a dual screen setup but not super-expensive. 16:10
18:46:06 <Vorpal> I'm tried of having to use books to get my monitor the right height, so I want proper adjustable stands
18:46:15 <Vorpal> Thinking about syncmaster, are they still good?
18:46:25 <Vorpal> Had one ages ago that was nice
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18:46:44 <myname> by the way: what the fuck is wrong with sony? they made the vaio duo with an OPTICAL TRACK POINT
18:46:58 <myname> it's basically a miniature touchpad in the middle of the keyboard
18:47:13 <Vorpal> myname, proper track point is far better
18:47:36 <Vorpal> You can't beat a proper trackpoint on a laptop, far superior to touchpads
18:47:39 <fizzie> Isn't it more of an inverted optical mouse than a miniature touchpad, though?
18:47:53 <Taneb> You know, when I first started playing Minecraft, I played with one hand
18:48:12 <fizzie> I'm not going to ask what the other hand was doing.
18:48:14 <Taneb> Because I was playing with voicechat, and the only decent mic I could find was handheld
18:48:16 <fizzie> (I'm just going to imply.)
18:48:22 <myname> fizzie: it's like hell
18:48:27 <Vorpal> I would like a trackpoint on my desktop keyboard, for quick mouse usage that doesn't require the precision of a normal mouse
18:48:50 <myname> i can't even move from one side of the monitor to the other
18:49:01 <Vorpal> myname, didn't try before you bought?
18:49:03 <fizzie> Haven't seen that many standalone trackballs around recently.
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18:49:33 <myname> Vorpal: i did, that's the reason i hadn't bought it
18:49:46 <myname> i'm looking for a replacement of my netbook and haven't found one yet
18:50:12 <Vorpal> myname, I would generally recommend thinkpads for good portable computers, but not sure about netbooks
18:50:25 <myname> i am really disappointed by thinkpads
18:50:38 <Vorpal> I love mine, a bit old now, Core 2 Duo
18:50:40 <elliott> Unicomp sell keyboards with trackpoints
18:50:41 <myname> they are either pretty large (>12") or have a crappy resolution
18:51:07 <Vorpal> myname, yeah I have a 15.4", because I actually want to use it for stuff, I have large hands
18:51:22 <myname> Vorpal: no real reason, imo
18:51:27 <myname> i want something to take with me
18:51:36 <myname> and my netbook has a pretty large keyboard actually
18:51:38 <Vorpal> I used mine while at university
18:51:44 <Vorpal> myname, full size keys?
18:51:58 <Vorpal> I can't use anything less
18:52:50 <Vorpal> myname, on a normal keyboard I can comfortably reach left ctrl-p with my right hand. Can't quite do that on this MS Natural Keyboard I'm using
18:52:54 <fizzie> Also weird thing: the local hardware (as in, non-computer such) store had switched to a Torx screw heads for all the "generic" screws they sold.
18:53:09 <Vorpal> More like Ctrl-u with this
18:53:29 <myname> 1.3x1.2 cm with 0.3 cm space between the keys
18:53:59 <Vorpal> myname, so slightly smaller than full size then, just enough to throw off blind typing
18:54:13 <olsner> fizzie: torx is supposed to be good for something, isn't it?
18:54:19 <myname> Vorpal: it's my only device with a keyboard so i can type pretty easy
18:54:35 <Vorpal> well yeah you would get used to it
18:54:42 <olsner> or maybe they just realized they have a higher markup on torx drivers and wanted to force everyone to get new stuff from them
18:54:58 <Vorpal> myname, I couldn't live without a large monitor to fill with windows. I use a 3-monitor setup at work
18:55:40 <myname> Vorpal: well, i can have 6 terminals with 87x31 chars
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18:56:24 <fizzie> olsner: For torque, I would assume.
18:56:36 <Vorpal> olsner, it doesn't slip
18:56:46 <fizzie> The screw of the future.
18:56:58 <myname> torx is pretty nice actually
18:57:02 <olsner> Screw the Future: Torx
18:57:20 <Vorpal> Not sure how much s torx screw costs compared to a normal one
18:57:42 <myname> well, at least i never managed to destroy a sinle one
18:57:45 <fizzie> I don't think they had really changed prices at the same time.
18:57:52 <myname> i kill other screws all the time
18:58:10 <fizzie> And I'm sure it's all nice, just most of my screwdrivers are old-fashioned.
18:58:19 <Vorpal> " The official generic name, standardized by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO 10664, is hexalobular internal."
18:58:49 <fizzie> "-- often referred to by the original proprietary brand name Torx (pronounced "torks") or by the alternate generic name star drive --" yeah, I can see why people'd prefer a star drive.
18:59:44 <oerjan> <olsner> ooh, here's the part where they do countries and numbers in french again <- roajåm yni, di poä
19:00:11 <fizzie> oerjan: I watch it solely for the french points.
19:00:41 * oerjan _actually_ only remembers roajåm yni from eurovision and doesn't know how it's properly spelled
19:00:59 <olsner> there's also lazerbaijan
19:01:19 <olsner> oerjan: what country is that?
19:02:36 <olsner> oh, I thought they'd use l'anglais for that
19:03:10 <oerjan> olsner: i suspect the scottish would quickly complain if they did that
19:03:23 <olsner> I suspect the french wouldn't care :)
19:04:08 <Taneb> Isn't it l'angleterre?
19:05:20 <Bike> why have i not seen more angle/angle puns...
19:05:33 <Vorpal> Bike, because they are terrible?
19:05:54 <Bike> yes but that's true of puns in general and yet here we are
19:07:20 <Bike> is the answer that we call all those guys "anglos" now
19:07:48 <oerjan> elliott: angle buffalo?
19:08:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles !!!!!
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19:10:06 <Bike> «“Bene, nam et angelicam habent faciem, et tales angelorum in caelis decet esse coheredes” ("It is well, for they have an angelic face, and such people ought to be co-heirs of the angels in heaven")» lol wow.
19:15:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> No, I mean, the whole point is to vote for neighbor countries and such. <-- hm which of the neighbors was the only one to vote for estonia again...
19:15:46 <oerjan> i vaguely think it was latvia, but maybe it was finland
19:18:16 <oerjan> <Bike> in any case there are so many ways you could define it that mandating any particular one would be silly <-- "the determinant of a (square) matrix is a number satisfying any of the following equivalent properties ..." hth
19:19:19 <oerjan> unfortunately doing that on a test increases your chances of getting one of them wrong, i guess
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19:27:30 <fizzie> oerjan: I think we've historically given Estonia at least some amount of points; only 6 this year, though. (Our 8 went to Netherlands, and 10 to Hungary, but at least the 12 went to Norway.)
19:28:02 <fizzie> (3 from Lithuania to Estonia.)
19:28:13 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i'm used to it all being arbitrary fields <-- i think determinants can even be done over commutative rings (the commutativity is necessary, though)
19:28:42 <fizzie> Actually, Estonia's entire points this year: 3 from Lithuania, 6 from Finland, 10 from Latvia.
19:28:49 <fizzie> So the neighbour-voting's going strong.
19:29:06 <fizzie> (Maybe not as strong as sometimes, but still.)
19:29:07 <kmc> voting rings :O
19:29:34 <elliott> kmc: are they commutative?
19:29:39 <elliott> I hear that's necessary to determine what they are.
19:30:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:31:18 <oerjan> shachaf: you highlight on hichaf?
19:32:00 <oerjan> admittedly i search the logs for rjan, but i haven't bothered changing client highlighting.
19:32:04 <shachaf> Maybe I should hilight on \Spuns\b too.
19:32:24 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:32:33 <fizzie> "[Torx] was developed in 1967 by Camcar Textron." (emphasis mine) I thought that was someone's name.
19:32:56 <Vorpal> örjan, So you don't highlight on this then?
19:33:00 <oerjan> (occasionally someone does the weird thing and turns the oe into some stupid unicode character from latin-1, imagine why...)
19:33:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: no. actually i'm on webchat right now so i'm not even keeping settings.
19:34:31 <oerjan> fizzie: oh right. estonia got their first points so late, i didn't notice they got any further after that.
19:34:56 <zzo38> In the Z-machine, the mouse can have up to sixteen buttons, and is possible to not have any buttons at all, is also allowed.
19:36:00 <oerjan> fizzie: dörmögő dömötör
19:36:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, sounds Icelandic
19:36:47 <oerjan> Vorpal: hungarian actually
19:37:08 <fizzie> I was going to guess Hungarian, based on the ő, but was just looking if they have an ö too.
19:37:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6rm%C3%B6g%C5%91_D%C3%B6m%C3%B6t%C3%B6r
19:38:22 <kmc> yeah they do
19:38:27 <oerjan> my mom had a sample of the magazine when she was learning hungarian
19:38:45 <shachaf> zzo38: The Z-machine is good.
19:38:49 <kmc> ö is to ő as o is to ó
19:39:17 <oerjan> iirc the words mean "grumbling bear" or thereabouts. except perhaps with whatever bears do instead of grumbling.
19:40:26 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure they don't howl or purr though
19:40:31 <fizzie> They moan, bark, huff, growl and roar, according to Wikipedia. (What wouldn't it know.)
19:40:46 <oerjan> oh hm if i am to believe google translate it's "growling demetrius"
19:40:48 <fizzie> Though it's not claiming that as an exclusive list.
19:42:11 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/g2/d/24470-2/p1150577.jpg <- bear.
19:42:13 <kmc> preved medved
19:43:24 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/24467-2/p1150573.jpg <- maybe the same bear?
19:43:26 <Vorpal> Is the hugs project still alive?
19:43:30 <fizzie> (It's through a restaurant window.)
19:43:44 <fizzie> (It was that bear burger place.)
19:44:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you mean bear meat in the burger?
19:44:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: last i heard there had been no update for years. after ghci got good enough, it just took over.
19:45:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, sad that there is only one de facto implementation of haskell nowdays
19:45:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, who can say? Cf. http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-05-14#070135fizzie
19:45:23 <Vorpal> kmc, chrome displays that as xn--nxa
19:45:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: It displays as β.zem.fi if you add Greek to the list of languages you know. :p
19:45:54 -!- olsner has joined.
19:46:26 <pikhq> Just an anti-phishing feature.
19:46:29 <zzo38> Isn't Hugs written in C though? It would help, if Hugs is capable of running GHC.
19:46:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure it makes sense to display these as xn-- variants, that is going to confuse most non-tech-savy people
19:46:36 <fizzie> (I've done that, and all it got me was a "this browser is unique" result in Panopticlick.)
19:46:54 <oerjan> zzo38: hugs cannot run ghc, no.
19:47:04 <olsner> hmm, I guess I've missed about 15 minutes of your banter now
19:47:07 <zzo38> oerjan: Then it isn't very good.
19:47:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: The idea is that it prevents phishing by way of internationalized domains that *look* like something else.
19:47:29 <oerjan> zzo38: it's ghc which uses too many of its own extensions to be compiled with anything else.
19:47:36 <pikhq> "Random gibberish" is better than actively misleading domains.
19:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, mine is unique too
19:47:51 <fizzie> Apparently "en-US,en;q=0.8,fi;q=0.6,el;q=0.4" is an unique Accept-Language list.
19:48:00 <zzo38> I just disable internationalized domains
19:48:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, My plugin list is unqiue
19:48:11 <zzo38> fizzie: Can you not set up the Accept-Language list separately from those?
19:48:30 <Vorpal> text/html, */* ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.3 gzip,deflate,sdch en-US,en;q=0.8,sv;q=0.6,en-GB;q=0.4 is unique too
19:48:33 <fizzie> zzo38: Not from the regular settings dialog, at least.
19:49:05 <olsner> hmm, sounds like bears have roughly the same set of sounds as dogs
19:49:05 <fizzie> "Shared Dictionary Compression over HTTP" instead.
19:49:15 <fizzie> Though the "sd" part could've been that.
19:49:21 <pikhq> http://www.xn--pypal-4ve.com/ is a shit-load better.
19:49:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, think that is generally spdy
19:49:45 <oerjan> fizzie: you prefer english to finnish?
19:50:41 <fizzie> oerjan: Certainly. I mean... Finnish.
19:50:48 <FreeFull> There are too many haskell json libraries
19:50:58 <oerjan> olsner: well yes, but i think i still have norwegian first
19:51:00 <Taneb> FreeFull, aseson is the cool one
19:51:03 <Bike> they must be culled
19:51:18 <Taneb> I'm gonna leave and never come back now
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19:51:35 <FreeFull> It seems more optimised for speed than simplicity
19:51:54 <oerjan> i hope this is just a ploy to get time for his evil world takeover, and not something serious.
19:51:59 <fizzie> oerjan: The worst thing is that I get a lot of Swedish due to the IPv6 tunnel (with an endpoint in Sweden) and geoip things. I mean... Swedish.
19:52:06 <Bike> what is the kolmogorov complexity of json
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19:52:39 <oerjan> fizzie: svenska är slik en ljuvliga språk, nej?
19:52:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Slick and lightlike, yes.
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19:53:33 <zzo38> I think it would be improve if, you write something like: /https?:\/\/(.*\.)?wikipedia\.org\// { Accept-Language: "en-US,en;q=0.8,fi;q=0.6,el;q=0.4"; internationalized_domains=true; } else /telnet:\/\/(.*)(|:[0-9]+)\/?/ { ......
19:54:07 <fizzie> IKEA has a chair called POÄNG, I can never not think of the Eurovision when coming across that.
19:54:17 <fizzie> "POÄNG makes relaxing easy."
19:55:11 <zzo38> It might be better if everything the browser does is overridden by configuration files like this
19:55:39 <FreeFull> All I want to do is try to extract two values from a json string, with some error handling
19:55:50 <shachaf> oerjan: should i learn norwegian instead of finnish
19:56:28 <oerjan> fizzie: next year, sit down in your POÄNG and watch eurovision on your UPPLEVA hth
19:56:53 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:57:01 <fizzie> oerjan: My BESTÅ/UPPLEVA, I suppose.
19:57:02 <zzo38> Is there any version of SQL which can create anonymous tables/views/etc and store their reference in a table, and to create a view to override an existing table/view and then allow the override to be removed later?
19:57:02 <oerjan> shachaf: no, you're stuck with finnish now hth, although you can do swedish also
19:57:20 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, why am I stuck with Finnish?
19:57:28 <zzo38> And furthermore to allow creating and dropping tables/views/index/triggers/etc inside of a trigger?
19:57:59 <fizzie> fungot: Did you know you live on an IKEA thing?
19:57:59 <fungot> fizzie: in the next two to the vice president of the as gets exercised an option. regents of the lunch. eric t. 06, 2000
19:58:09 <oerjan> shachaf: it was a side effect of the papers you had to sign to get away from the finnish army hth
19:58:33 <fizzie> fungot: You're in a LERBERG hth.
19:58:34 <fungot> fizzie: are we meeting that little trading operation of the new) and danno b(alchemy) 9 of the ena and affiliated, are forbidden by will mcnamara of dow k to your information.
19:58:35 <oerjan> the part in tiny, finnish script
19:58:47 <zzo38> Would you find such features of SQL to be useful?
19:59:31 <kmc> wow IKEA sells TVs now?
19:59:55 <fizzie> They sell an EXPERIENCE.
20:00:22 <shachaf> kmc: 70 people said they would show up to bayhac today and only ~30 people showed up but there is 70 people's worth of pizza
20:00:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Perhaps you can save it for later, then, or in case some people want more pizza they can have it, especially in case there are also some people who don't want pizza
20:01:10 <Bike> i don't think you understand pizza
20:01:15 <oerjan> kmc: fizzie was actually making a pun hth
20:01:40 <elliott> shachaf: you cn send me the pizza
20:02:30 <shachaf> elliott: the joke is that when we had too much pizza at boston haskell kmc took the leftovers home
20:02:32 <oerjan> fizzie: you should czech that out
20:03:00 <shachaf> elliott: solution: move to america?? the inventors of pizza hth
20:04:15 <oerjan> itt shachaf dooms himself by angering the napolitan mafia
20:05:29 <shachaf> did itt migrate to oerjan via kmc or another path
20:05:58 <oerjan> i definitely noticed kmc using it
20:06:12 <FreeFull> I think I'll either use AttoJSON or hjpath
20:06:55 * oerjan has shitty meme absorbing powers.
20:07:11 <fizzie> Why don't they sell no-cheese pizza here? They had a lot of that going on in e.g. Sorrento, Italy, Italy. (To differentiate from Sorrento, Italy, Some State, US, which I'm sure exists; I understand every place is duplicated there.)
20:07:21 <oerjan> that's (shitty meme) absorbing powers, not shitty (meme absorbing powers), but you already knew that.
20:08:08 <oerjan> itt FreeFull gets swatted ----### hth
20:08:30 <oerjan> i blame webchat, or this keyboard.
20:09:15 -!- olsner has joined.
20:09:43 <oerjan> also that swat was only because i instinctively connect F_F_ with swattability hth
20:10:35 <oklopol> so turns out split epicity of block maps between sofic shifts is decidable
20:11:04 <oklopol> iirc i used to announce results here at some point?
20:11:17 <shachaf> oerjan: do you also connect chaf\b with swattability
20:11:20 <oerjan> oklopol: that is possible
20:11:49 <oerjan> well no more than normal
20:12:30 <oklopol> at least when i was doing my master's degree i recall that you broke an early proof sketch of my main result without admitting that you understood what it was about
20:12:53 <shachaf> ‘run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i 's/dal/dahl/g' "$f"; done
20:12:54 -!- fungot has changed nick to FunFot.
20:13:03 <oerjan> oklopol: wait split epicity is there an actual exact sequence in category theory involved here?
20:13:05 <kmc> FunFot: hi
20:13:10 <kmc> fungot: hi
20:13:10 <FunFot> kmc: go to: http://www20.cera.com/ client/ ge the timing on one of the mentioned or related financial instruments that are in the right of the expiration of the rate the securities and exchange commission
20:13:25 <fizzie> (No dynamic nickery trackery.)
20:13:44 <oklopol> oerjan: should there be? our article is about taking random category theory terms and seeing what they look like for block maps.
20:13:56 -!- FunFot has changed nick to fungot.
20:13:57 <fungot> I'm too dummy to track my own name.
20:14:17 <oklopol> and split monicity is actually like among the top 3 most famous results in the field
20:14:19 <fungot> olsner: they might get the true lowdown on the market.
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20:14:49 <oerjan> <oklopol> at least when i was doing my master's degree i recall that you broke an early proof sketch of my main result without admitting that you understood what it was about <-- i think that was sort of amusing, except i don't quite remember it.
20:14:56 <fizzie> olsner: Dum, but knows finance, I suppose.
20:14:59 <oklopol> whereas split epicity turned out to be really hard
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20:16:40 <oklopol> oerjan: what do split epis have to do with exact sequences?
20:16:41 <oerjan> oklopol: well i recall split exact sequences were important in the theory around my phd, that was for C*-algebras which we often produced from dynamical systems
20:17:00 <FachaF> i demand to be swatted
20:17:27 <oerjan> in module categories, a sequence A - B - 0 is exact if the map from A to B is epic
20:17:37 <oklopol> so does "the subshift generated by the fixed point of the fibonacci substitution" say anything to you
20:18:08 <oklopol> because we've been doing some stuff on automorphism groups of minimal systems generated by substitutions
20:18:19 <oklopol> and didn't you study something very similar
20:18:57 <oerjan> and split exactness for 0 - A - B - C - 0 means that the maps split B into a direct sum of A and C, except i vaguely recall that when A,B,C were C*-algebras it was not quite a direct sum of C*-algebras, something stayed at the module level. or something like that.
20:19:00 <oklopol> i don't know pretty much anything about C* algebras, except that our topology professor really really likes them
20:19:45 <oklopol> well split epic = has a right inverse
20:21:14 <oerjan> itt we investigate the theory that -chaf right-cancels the swattability of F.*F.*
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20:23:03 <oerjan> oklopol: we _did_ look at minimal substitution shift systems, their bratteli-vershik diagrams are particularly easy to calculate. and i think the fibonacci substitution was one of the frequent examples, like morse-thue.
20:24:03 <oklopol> we proved that for certain substitutions, the automorphism group of the subshift has Z (the shifts) as a finite index subgroup
20:24:56 <oerjan> i don't remember looking at automorphism groups of subshifts
20:25:11 <oklopol> afaik they haven't really been studied much
20:25:55 <oklopol> it's known that for substitutions where images of letters are equally long, the group only contains radius 2 maps
20:26:07 <oklopol> (radius 2 cellular automata that is)
20:26:19 <oklopol> (and up to a power of the shift)
20:26:28 <oklopol> this was in some french paper
20:26:34 <oklopol> with incomprehensible integrals and stuff
20:26:41 * oerjan declares he won't have time to finish logreading today
20:26:53 <shachaf> oerjan: what about norwegian logreading
20:27:30 <oklopol> and then it's known that for sturmian systems, only shifts are automorphisms, this was proved this year, although i'd be surprised if no one knew that
20:27:43 <oerjan> shachaf: oh come on i didn't even misple it
20:28:48 <oerjan> oklopol: hm automorphisms are just homeomorphisms commuting with the shift right?
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20:39:18 <oklopol> we are interested in all continuous self-maps which commute with the shift, but they are automatically automorphisms by a result.
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20:44:38 <oerjan> oklopol: in which case my advisor et al's result about orbit equivalence of Z^n group actions to actions by a single subshift would apply to the combination. not that it's really relevant...
20:45:20 <oerjan> or maybe it is, my brain isn't up to thinking much about this any more.
20:46:00 <oklopol> what does "action by a single subshift" mean
20:46:44 <oerjan> er i mean action by the shift in a subshift
20:47:15 <oerjan> or maybe it's just generally a minimal action, depends whether it's expansive.
20:48:32 <oerjan> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00222-009-0213-7#
20:49:32 <oerjan> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.136.7674 is an earlier result that only goes up to 2
20:51:04 <oerjan> almost finite-something, basically what you get when you read the infinite graph of a bratteli-vershik diagram as a group action on the infinite paths.
20:51:35 <oerjan> where the group action is swapping things down to finitely many levels.
20:51:37 <oklopol> i should check out bratteli-vershik diagrams again, they might make more sense now
20:52:14 <oerjan> well only the bratteli part is used for AF iirc, the vershik part is to extend it to work with Z-actions (which includes subshifts)
20:53:03 <oerjan> but every minimal AF-relation is orbit equivalent to a minimal system, and vice versa. that's an older result which they are building upon here
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20:56:16 <oklopol> are you in contact with these guys still
20:57:15 <oerjan> i met my advisor some years ago and he told me about these new results when they were about to get them published
21:01:14 <oklopol> can you fix me a post-doc position there
21:02:07 <oerjan> i cannot even fix my own life, oklopol
21:03:27 <oklopol> if you fix mine i'll fix yours
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21:38:07 <Sgeo> elliott, http://worms2d.info/Play_Worms_Armageddon_on_Linux ?
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21:48:22 <zzo38> C++ has too much operator overloading; my "Black-C" specification does different operator overloading, with various restrictions such as, you cannot override assignments unless it is through a pointer, the [] and -> operators can be overridden only indirectly by overriding the indirection operator, etc
21:48:48 <zzo38> Which I think is a better way for C, even if not for C++.
21:49:17 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
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22:09:04 <Gregor> elliott, Sgeo: I don't know where the conversation came from, but I can confirm that Worms Armageddon works fine on Linux on wine (on Steam), as I have it.
22:13:40 <Gregor> Nowait, I have Worms Reloaded.
22:13:46 <Gregor> I am so good memories.
22:14:06 <shachaf> Gregor: why do you have voice
22:16:10 <Gregor> Do not fear the voice.
22:26:25 <zzo38> That doesn't answer the question.
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22:43:51 <Sgeo> https://github.com/emre/macster
22:46:20 <Lumpio-> zzo38: But overloading [] lets you do neat stuff like: map<string, string> foo; foo["bar"] = "baz";
22:48:34 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I suppose it does, but things like that isn't for C.
22:48:46 <pikhq> I think you can manage that with just overloading + and unary *. :)
22:49:36 <Lumpio-> So if your thing going to do overloading or something then
22:49:57 <pikhq> (and yes, that's commutative)
22:51:58 <Sgeo> Should I buy Nexus 4 or wait for new Nexus?
23:08:06 <zzo38> pikhq: This is how my specification does it; it does it like that.
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23:21:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Question, do you wish for function pointers to be castable through void*?
23:22:05 <pikhq> (note that ISO C does *not* permit this)
23:22:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Probably they should be, but I know that on some computers it might not be possible. You can use a union if you need to.
23:22:46 <pikhq> (note also that POSIX requires this)
23:22:52 <zzo38> (e.g. on harvard computers, and possibly some others too)
23:23:53 <pikhq> I think it's actually feasible on a Harvard architecture, though your void*s will need to be wider than the system's addresses.
23:24:11 <pikhq> And have void* contain a flag for whether it's in instruction or data memory.
23:24:27 <zzo38> Yes, if you do it like that.
23:25:03 <pikhq> As contrary to popular belief there's no reason for C pointers to directly correspond to system addresses. :)
23:26:06 <pikhq> But alas, people like to think of C as a "portable assembly" when it's an abstract machine that happens to be implementable on popular computers with fairly minimal overhead.
23:26:38 <zzo38> It depends on the target.
23:27:15 <zzo38> On the Z-machine, function pointers and data pointers have a different format, even though both are sixteen bits; there are also text pointers which have another different format.
23:28:58 <zzo38> Some people may call C as a "portable assembly", but assembly languages cannot really be portable; that is why there is C which is somewhat close, but not quite.
23:34:30 <kmc> some uses of "C as portable assembly" would be better described as "C as portable compiler IR"
23:34:34 <kmc> which is more legit
23:34:43 <kmc> because a compiler IR is allowed to have abstract semantics and fancy backend optimizations
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00:03:39 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, that's entirely legit.
00:04:19 <pikhq> Ultimately all you care about for a compiler IR is that it performs well.
00:10:40 <pikhq> Though I'll note that C is not very good as a compiler IR for Brainfuck.
00:10:48 <pikhq> GCC *hates* LostKng. :)
00:11:39 <Sgeo> I should play that at some point probabl
00:16:17 <pikhq> (really, the problematic bit there is GCC uses a truly insane amount of RAM for that)
00:17:05 <pikhq> GCC, building LostKng converted to C, uses insane quantities of RAM.
00:17:10 <Sgeo> I thought the problematic bit was that trying to interpret one language as being in a different language ... oh
00:17:46 <pikhq> Well. It doesn't on esotope-bfc output.
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00:17:55 <pikhq> Anything less sophisticated though? Yeesh.
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00:23:08 <pikhq> Huh. gcc-4.8 is actually much more reasonable.
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02:36:58 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to get my hands on a copy of Fitznik at some point
02:37:01 <Sgeo> wonder if it works on WINE
02:37:27 <Bike> http://media.tumblr.com/8d532386ec91813faa0a66aa635b56b4/tumblr_inline_mn2oigp0nC1qz4rgp.gif
02:38:05 <Sgeo> Reminds me of that screensaver
02:38:19 <Sgeo> Which... reminds me of another screensaver, that I liked as a kid, and couldn't find again
02:45:20 <Sgeo> "Fitznik 2 features 65,000 color graphics and requires a Windows computer running at 500Mhz or faster."
02:51:42 <Sgeo> Fitznik did not like WINE
02:51:48 <Sgeo> Now I have to reset my rsolution, ugh
02:53:24 <Gregor> Is there any software on Earth more buggy than fluidsynth X_X
02:53:45 <JesseH> I am considering creating a new esoteric language :P
02:56:42 <Sgeo> I assume that this game uses .xm files, but don't know how to GET AT THEM
02:57:10 <Bike> is the language called :P
02:58:23 <Sgeo> strings shows me a list of files in this file
03:00:13 <Sgeo> It's just a zip file. Just opened it.
03:01:11 <Sgeo> And... I'm an idiot and unzipped in ~
03:09:19 <Sgeo> ..ok... I try to apt-get install mplayer and it tries to upgrade glibc
03:11:41 <Sgeo> Gregor, does zsudo count?
03:12:29 <Gregor> I doubt if it could conceivably be more buggy than fluidsynth.
03:13:41 <pikhq> https://raw.github.com/cbcercas/zpanel-freebsd/master/config_packs/freebsd/bin/zsudo.c Feast your eyes.
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03:39:50 <Gregor> Oh look, I can get to github again.
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03:40:34 <Sgeo_> Gregor, now go, and behold zsudo!
03:40:35 <Gregor> As mind-bogglingly buggy as that is, it's simply too insubstantial to be as buggy as fluidsynth.
03:40:43 <Gregor> It may have more bugs per line, but it cannot have as many bugs.
03:41:34 <Bike> gregxor, the monster attacking tokyo
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03:52:08 <zzo38> Do you have the right to commit suicide?
03:52:33 <Bike> yep, the union negotiated that one back in '74
03:54:08 <quintopia> zzo38: i think it depends on whether you have the mercurial password for the suicide project
03:54:11 <zzo38> (In case you don't know, I do mean you personally.)
03:54:37 <Bike> yes, by the union i meant my union
03:56:43 <quintopia> typedef union {Bike bike; Suicide suicide} myunion;
03:57:26 <kmc> i like that zzo38 means "you personally" and yet he asked the question immediately after joining
03:58:05 <Bike> he meant I, Bike, and nobody else
03:58:36 <shachaf> zzo38 asked the question personally of each of us
04:02:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is what I mean.
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04:05:36 <quintopia> zzo38: serious answer: no, i have no right to commit suicide. society needs me too badly.
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04:17:11 <Sgeo_> I just thought of a use I have for a Raspberry Pi
04:17:26 <Sgeo_> I could finish transferring my data off the damaged HD
04:17:45 <Sgeo_> Without tying up one of my normal computers.
04:21:28 <kmc> http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/41095.wss "IBM brings COBOL to cloud and mobile"
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04:27:03 <olsner> and of course you didn't see any of that, the internet is broken
04:28:46 <Jafet> C stands for cloud right
04:29:13 <Bike> cloud oriented business originality language
04:29:21 <Jafet> “With more than 200 billion lines of COBOL code being used across industries such as banking, insurance, retail and human resources”
04:30:32 <Jafet> > 200e9 / (50 * 365 * 100)
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04:34:11 <kmc> yeah I took a programming languages survey class in college and we had a lecture where we filled out a big matrix of programming languages and their properties
04:34:34 <kmc> and when we got to COBOL the only thing any of us (including the instructor) knew was that more lines of COBOL had been written than anything else
04:34:37 <Bike> a linear operator on the vector space of pointless bullshit
04:34:47 <kmc> maybe i should learn COBOL and put it on my resume
04:36:13 <kmc> you know how they say that a bunch of COBOL programmers came out of retirement and made mad cash fixing Y2K bugs?
04:36:14 <Bike> business oriented language, that is uncommon
04:36:22 <kmc> i want to do that for Y2038 bugs
04:36:36 <Bike> how many unix systems use cobol
04:36:40 <Bike> or. wait i get it nvm
04:36:53 <Sgeo_> I knew a bit of COBOL
04:36:59 <Sgeo_> Read a For Dummies book on it
04:36:59 <kmc> i assume that by 2038, Linux and x86 will just be a useless ignored compatibility layer between some webapp framework and some cloud hypervisor
04:37:03 <kmc> even moreso than today
04:37:11 <kmc> and so few people will still learn that layer
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04:37:39 <Sgeo_> Saw it in a bookstore, and misremembered 'CORBA'
04:37:54 <Sgeo_> (Which was a thing I wanted to learn about after seeing it referenced somewhere)
04:37:56 <Bike> man what am i gonna be doing in 2038. i'll be like, 90 or something
04:38:17 <kmc> i'll turn 50 that year
04:38:22 <Bike> we'll have abandoned traditional numerics by then you see
04:38:25 <kmc> maybe Supertrain will have opened by then
04:40:33 <shachaf> copumpkin: bayhac was p. good
04:40:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: we all wished you were here
04:41:20 <shachaf> maybe other people too i didn't ask..
04:42:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: I won't ask about that story.
04:44:22 <shachaf> copumpkin: Do you have any good puzzles for me?
04:44:37 <pikhq> It is possible to have a git repository that goes all Oroboros.
04:44:45 <pikhq> With a commit having itself as its parent.
04:45:10 <pikhq> It lets you say "when you would read this blob, read this blob instead".
04:45:24 <pikhq> This is actually a git feature.
04:45:33 <Bike> what's it for.
04:45:43 <pikhq> You can say "read SHA1 X when you would read SHA1 Y"
04:46:01 <copumpkin> shachaf: what kind of puzzle do you want?
04:46:04 <pikhq> Additionally, a crazy SHA1 collision could do this. :P
04:46:08 <pikhq> Bike: Stupid hacks.
04:46:15 <Bike> i love stupid hacks (no i don't)
04:46:38 <kmc> i found a script to bruteforce vanity SHA1s for git commits
04:46:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: Well -- a good kind.
04:46:48 <kmc> there should be a GPU version of that
04:46:51 <Bike> vanity SHAs. stupid future
04:47:10 <kmc> glad that my "stupid future" meme is catching on
04:47:17 <kmc> too bad Bitcoin ASICs are probably useless for that
04:47:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: There was a bitcoin conference here this weekend.
04:48:02 <Bike> you are my meme hero kmc. look forward to seeing your face or whatever on a colored background, with large white text about.... stuff.
04:48:11 <shachaf> roconnor wrote a weblog post about me!!!!!
04:48:18 <Bike> i dunno what kids meme about. cats
04:48:30 <shachaf> no it was about prisms but it mentioned me
04:48:52 <kmc> Photoshop Hero
04:49:08 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/80d930bdb551243156afc40d0d184079/tumblr_mn2vcakVNp1qblhajo1_1280.png
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04:50:20 <olsner> btw, http://modularcircuits.tantosonline.com/blog/articles/the-cray-files/ was what I was talking about while pinging out
04:50:34 <olsner> that and the 2GB/s SSD you could get for your Cray X-MP/4
04:51:01 <shachaf> copumpkin: You always have good puzzles.
04:51:04 * olsner reloads the logs to see if any of this is getting anywhere
04:51:18 <kmc> is that like Jeopardy!
04:51:45 <pikhq> Dammit, github does not support git replace.
04:51:52 <Bike> wouldn't it be more like um
04:51:58 <Bike> that story about the philosophy professor
04:52:44 <copumpkin> shachaf: how about: "you're somewhere on earth (a perfect sphere), and you walk a mile south, a mile west, and a mile north, and end up back where you started. Where could you be?"
04:53:16 <Bike> an irritated cartogarpher's office
04:53:22 <olsner> on a multidirectional treadmill
04:53:31 <kmc> the bear is white because it's a polar bear
04:53:39 <copumpkin> kmc: that's the obvious answer, but there are lots more
04:53:44 <kmc> i think they have 2D treadmills
04:53:47 <kmc> but i don't remember how they work
04:54:14 <Bike> my dad got a book of thoe 'lateral thinking' puzzles for christmas and half of them were non sequiturs, it was beautiful
04:54:44 <olsner> reminds me of that Voyager episode about Tuvok not getting a pun
04:55:36 <olsner> or, half "lateral thinking" puzzle, half bad pun
04:55:44 <kmc> in this episode of Veep they say that "kassi" is the Finnish word for "scrotum"; is that correct?
04:56:03 <kmc> (spoiler alert)
04:56:05 <Sgeo_> copumpkin, a specific distance from the south pole
04:56:30 <olsner> sounds like swedish word for shopping bag, maybe that word is actually imported from finnish
04:56:32 <Sgeo_> Or actually, I think there are a lot of possible distances
04:57:04 <kmc> google translates it just as "bag" but it doesn't always have colloquial meanings
04:57:05 <Bike> honestly the concept of "west" is socially constructed
04:57:11 <Sgeo_> Too late, I cheated over a decade ago
04:57:25 <kmc> who's cheating on what
04:57:28 <kmc> slash whom
04:57:39 <Bike> sgeo's cheating on compumpkin's polar bear
04:58:16 <Sgeo_> I cheated on copumpkin's riddle by sending myself a telepathic message back in time to read a book that contains the solution.
04:58:27 <kmc> that's a good trick
04:58:53 <copumpkin> I think youm should be the accusative of you
05:00:10 <kmc> that's the hebrew plural of copumpkin
05:00:37 <kmc> shachaf: you should transliterate 'copumpkin' into hebrew, hth
05:01:16 <olsner> ah, here are a bunch of links about 2d treadmills: https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=388
05:01:20 <Bike> what was the accusative of you?
05:02:20 <olsner> http://www.virtuix.com/ seems to be a bowl covered in small rollers, plus a rail and waist collar that keeps you in place
05:02:33 <kmc> i think maybe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrjrgBV8K0 is on a 2d treadmill
05:02:44 <kmc> but maybe it's just a wide 1d treadmill
05:02:53 <kmc> anyway it's a wonderfully creepy video
05:03:48 <Sgeo_> A bit concerned about that mpk ... I really don't know Hebrew well enough
05:04:03 <Bike> that video is vastly improved by the bee gees
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05:04:35 <olsner> hmm, youtube is now showing me ads about how finland's armed forces are better than sweden's
05:04:48 <Bike> oh the bee gees one is an older petman. my mistake
05:04:55 <olsner> (psyops to prepare for the invasion?)
05:05:53 <Bike> stayin' alive, ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' aliiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiive
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05:16:51 <pikhq> Hoping melatonin makes that possible for me.
05:19:04 <kmc> good luck!
05:19:26 * kmc took melatonin and 5-HTP occasionally, never really felt a definitive effect
05:19:36 <kmc> ymmv obviously :)
05:19:43 * pikhq has cause to believe it'll help rather a lot
05:19:54 <pikhq> Autism implies low melatonin, as does Prozac.
05:21:33 <kmc> lately I've been having trouble sleeping, but for a more specific reason
05:21:38 <kmc> which is that i'm angry / worried about specific things
05:22:07 <kmc> it's balanced out somewhat by the fact that I'm an unemployed bum again and don't need to get up at any particular time
05:22:08 <pikhq> I'm sleeping less than once a day, so.
05:22:15 <kmc> so I can afford to spend 12 hours getting 8 solid hours of sleep
05:22:30 * shachaf is pretty awful at sleep hth
05:23:22 <coppro> man, sigstop is the best
05:24:08 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure 5-HTP is pretty strongly counterindicated though.
05:24:46 <pikhq> Yup, serotonergic.
05:24:53 <pikhq> Fucking terrible idea.
05:24:57 <kmc> yeah, it's a serotonin precursor :)
05:25:02 <kmc> serotonin = 5-HT
05:25:11 <kmc> that's counterindicated because of the prozac?
05:26:03 <pikhq> Like all SSRIs, mixing serotonergic substances produces serotonin syndrome.
05:26:32 <pikhq> I'd prefer to avoid ER trips.
05:27:15 <kmc> shachaf: maybe so
05:27:26 <Bike> ugh, every time i hear another fact about ssris i dislike taking them more
05:27:42 <pikhq> Bike: Aside from the insomnia, it's been fucking great.
05:28:02 <Bike> i'm apparently smilier but it's not really apparent to me
05:28:18 <pikhq> I've only been noticing recently.
05:28:36 <pikhq> But holy shit, I sound like I give a shit. :P
05:29:00 <pikhq> Well, there is one thing I did notice rather more quickly.
05:29:04 <pikhq> Anhedonia kinda stopped.
05:29:37 <shachaf> kmc: maybe you can move to sf and become my drugs dealer
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05:29:45 <Bike> not for me, i guess
05:29:47 <Bike> imo fuck depression
05:29:58 <pikhq> Anhedonia is, like, the worst thing.
05:30:42 <kmc> sometimes i wonder if i should be on antidepressants
05:31:57 <Bike> only one way to find out! talking to a medical professional
05:32:13 <kmc> well i've been diagnosed with depression in the past
05:32:18 <kmc> and i could have had antidepressants if i wanted them
05:32:49 <pikhq> Yeah, I was kinda... severe.
05:33:45 <kmc> instead I took psychedelics like once a month
05:33:57 <kmc> which I think helped things
05:34:03 <kmc> but it's impossible to say for sure
05:34:19 <olsner> well, antidepressants are also drugs
05:34:23 <olsner> should be the same thing!
05:34:49 <Bike> i'd be way more interested in my ssris if they were psychedelic.
05:35:22 <Bike> i also consider it pretyt likely that actually taking psychedelics sould get me some pretty bad trips, though. life is hard for meeeee
05:36:08 <pikhq> Anhedonia is maybe the worst thing.
05:36:44 <pikhq> Spending pretty much of your day just idly wasting all your time because that's all you have the capacity for? Ugh.
05:37:07 <Bike> i used to feel pretty strongly about how bad not feeling strongly about things was, but
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06:25:51 <kmc> Hello. I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer is: No.
06:26:14 <Bike> straightforward.
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06:37:38 <zzo38> kmc: Did Leonard Nimoy tell you that, or someone else, or you?
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06:39:14 <kmc> Leonard Nimoy told me
06:41:51 <kmc> via television
06:42:06 <zzo38> Many people have seen Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn, but only know them as lines on a map and don't know their significance or why they have the names they do.
06:42:26 <kmc> Tropic of Calculus
06:42:40 <Bike> it's true. i don't really care. probably some astrology thing
06:42:52 <zzo38> kmc: Are you going to make up something called "Tropic of Calculus"?
06:44:16 <zzo38> Their significance is due to the Earth rotating on the different axis than it orbits the Sun.
06:44:31 <shachaf> I thought _Tropic of Cancer_ was a book.
06:44:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe there is a book of the same name, too.
06:44:46 <shachaf> But it turns out that it's "not a book. It is a cesspool, an open sewer, a pit of putrefaction, a slimy gathering of all that is rotten in the debris of human depravity."[20]
06:45:19 <Bike> common mistake
06:45:21 <zzo38> When I told someone that they are named after the astrological signs, they asked me why those specific signs. I know why; are you able to easily figure it out?
06:45:45 <zzo38> "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
06:46:22 <Bike> the tropic of cancer is named after the great crab migration that occurs along that line every year. the tropic of capricon is named after Jesüs Capricorn, a Nicean cartographer
06:46:50 <zzo38> Bike: Yes; some people say they are named after the constellations, but this is only indirectly, because the signs are named after the constellations.
06:47:03 <zzo38> Bike: No, but nice to make a joke!
06:47:32 <Bike> nice to make a joke, for sure
06:47:43 <shachaf> "The novel was subsequently banned in the United States until a 1961 Justice Department ruling declared that its contents were not obscene.[1]"
06:48:06 <kmc> naming my next band Jesüs Capricorn
06:48:09 <zzo38> They shouldn't ban those books anymore, hopefully.
06:48:09 <shachaf> If they had declared its contents obscene, would it not be unbanned?
06:48:34 <zzo38> kmc: You are going to make a next band?
06:49:02 <kmc> my next band will be nothing like my ex-band
06:49:21 <Bike> shachaf: US censorship law os silly. But stuff can be or used to be banned for obscenity, yeah.
06:49:23 <zzo38> kmc: How is your ex-band?
06:49:52 <shachaf> imo give me smut and nothing but
06:50:17 <Bike> Obscenity restrictions have kind of died out by now though.
06:50:22 <mnoqy> nice rhyme shachaf
06:50:36 <mnoqy> do you have a band too
06:51:07 <shachaf> about obscenity trials?????
06:51:18 <mnoqy> mmaybe they have a band
06:51:44 <zzo38> Hopefully you know of spherical geometry, and how you might have different axis designated on a plain sphere?
06:51:46 <shachaf> but now they're going to take it all away from us unless we take a stand and hand in hand we fight for freedom of the press
06:52:15 <Bike> do i owe you ticket money
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06:52:57 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, yes, let's freedom of the press. There is a cover of 2600 with Mickey Mouse and stuff and saying the MPAA is making it restricted unless you stand up for your rights, etc
06:53:04 <shachaf> Bike: four million ticket moneys please
06:53:43 <zzo38> In order to explain why the tropics are named after those two specific astrological signs, it would help to know about spherical geometry. Are you good enough at it?
06:54:24 <Bike> calculus three was like, two years ago man, i ain't remember that far back
06:54:46 <kmc> It would be wise to remember that the same people who would stop you from listening to Boards of Canada may be back next year to complain about a book, or even a TV program. If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. Defend your constitutionally protected rights - no one else will do it for you. Thank you.
06:55:18 <Bike> i like how boc's music videos are from shitty 50s films, goes well w/that
06:55:37 <kmc> have you seen the video for Dayvan Cowboy?
06:55:43 <kmc> that one is great
06:55:46 <zzo38> Well, maybe you can know that, on a plain (not rotating) sphere (here, the celestial sphere), you can designate the "equator" to be whatever great circle you want. In this case, there are two great circles, being the ecliptic and the actual equator.
06:55:46 <kmc> i haven't seen many others
06:55:56 <Bike> yeah, i tried to find the original footage from project excelsior, too, but no dice
06:56:07 <Bike> i like the idea of just watching a fall for so long
06:57:27 <zzo38> These two great circles must intersect. One of the intersection points will be called 0.
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06:59:05 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e59guruVL4o
06:59:27 <zzo38> Using the equator, draw two parallel circles which have a constant latitude (called "declination" in astronomy), at the maxima/minima of the ecliptic. Now you have two more intersection points. At these two intersection points, the longitude calculated along the ecliptic will be 90 and 270.
07:00:46 <zzo38> Each astrological sign is 30 degrees, starting at Aries. (These are designated using "0 Aries" for 0 degrees past the start of Aries, "3 Taurus" for 3 degrees past the start of Taurus (which would be = 33 degrees), etc.) You would probably know the correct order of the signs, as you see in the newspaper.
07:01:24 <zzo38> Therefore, the ecliptic longitude of 90 degrees = 0 Cancer, and 270 degrees = 0 Capricorn.
07:01:42 <zzo38> That is why the tropics have the names they do. Is this OK?
07:04:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you care so much about astrology?
07:04:55 <shachaf> I don't know many people who do, I think.
07:06:11 <zzo38> Many people are confuse and won't understand. That is why.
07:08:03 <zzo38> It is better to learn, rather than to be superstitious and not understanding anything about history and geometry and so on.
07:09:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you hear that CodensityAsk's new name is Free? hth
07:10:24 <zzo38> They called Free what is based on a class rather than a (* -> *) type, and there is already the other thing called Free, too.
07:12:37 <zzo38> They probably know the similar things, but not exactly the same (a class rather than a (* -> *) type), and different name too. In mathematics, such things are common.
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07:13:28 <shachaf> It is far more related to Free than to Codensity.
07:13:44 <zzo38> If you have (CodensityAsk w) if w is a comonad, then you will make a MonadPlus.
07:14:06 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it probably is, I just didn't know what name to put, and "Free" is already use for something else.
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07:15:18 <zzo38> I think it should make (Either x) to be a MonadPlus if x is a monoid, and if you make (CodensityAsk ((->) x)) then that is what it will make.
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07:20:44 <zzo38> I do know one relate to the other Free though, that if it can be written like (f x -> x) then the (CodensityAsk w) can be made like (Free f).
07:22:19 <zzo38> However, not everything is like that.
07:22:50 <zzo38> For example, (CodensityAsk Predicate) makes something too.
07:25:40 <zzo38> (It makes a monad which has been made a different way before, in this case)
07:29:13 <zzo38> CodensityAsk Predicate makes http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/infinite-search/0.12/doc/html/Data-Searchable.html monad.
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07:57:42 <shachaf> is a basic functional programming technique.
07:57:42 <shachaf> And in order to become a true JavaScript ninja,
07:57:42 <shachaf> what you really need to master is the art of
08:01:45 <zzo38> Sure, you can make currying even in JavaScript.
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08:02:56 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you a true ninja?
08:05:57 <kmc> is that free verse
08:07:36 <mroman_> that means he could either be *just* a Ninja or nothing at all.
08:08:03 <kmc> 17 Ways Agile Startups Use The Maybe Monad To Scratch An Itch
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08:10:49 <augur> crazy kid on youtube eats the worlds hottest fuckin peppers
08:11:05 <augur> barely stops reviewing them for flavor
08:11:47 <augur> heres some dope eating this bhut jolokia pepper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZstObB4RVsQ
08:11:56 <augur> hottest pepper until 2011
08:12:25 <augur> here's this kid eat the same thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvJdXpyPma8&list=UUxWRubpdOSGxoNldIvPqsxw&index=3
08:14:24 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/channel/HCl5DV_XpguiI
08:14:30 <augur> look at all these people just flip the fuck out
08:14:33 <augur> and this kid is just like
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08:14:54 <augur> ... yeah. mm. hm. thats a spicy pepper!
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08:32:06 <fizzie> Misreading of the day: "crazy kid on youtube eats the worlds hottest fuckin papers".
08:35:33 <augur> yeah eat those papers
08:35:38 <augur> yeah eat em real good
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08:36:00 <augur> fizzie: kids a pro, man
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09:44:03 <Jafet> What happened to carrots and cucumbers
09:47:57 <shachaf> I thought it was carrots and peas.
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09:57:38 <Jafet> She put the pea knish in her oven.
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10:56:32 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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16:17:54 <elliott> uh my battery is defying physics
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16:21:31 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 54%, 01:37:21 remaining
16:21:36 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 50%, 02:31:54 remaining
16:22:37 <zzo38> Doesn't seems defying physics to me; it is 54% and then it says 50%. It is defying statistics, or something like that, I think.
16:23:06 <Bike> elliott's referring to the estimated time remaining
16:23:36 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but that part is estimated.
16:26:40 <FreeFull> It's not actually talking about time
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16:49:43 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 40%, 01:15:53 remaining
16:49:45 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 39%, 01:43:15 remaining
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16:53:18 <myname> isn't it pretty normal?
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17:00:02 <zzo38> elliott: In what way?
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17:34:04 <mroman_> 2D Languages make it really hard to calculate runtime :(
17:42:26 <mroman_> and Beam is a really bad language
17:49:43 <mroman_> but otherwise it would be too easy
17:51:20 <mroman_> The only easy way to program is using the brainfuck2beam script :)
17:51:43 <mroman_> otherwise it starts getting freaky ugly pretty soon.
17:53:21 <mroman_> You can't do comparision without sacrificing the memory pointer
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20:20:56 <Bike> great, i learned something from sigbovik: if you do [x for x in 1,2,3] then xi s later bound
20:23:44 <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes?
20:24:28 <Lumpio-> You mean like x has a value after that?
20:24:43 <Lumpio-> Doesn't in Python 3 though.
20:24:57 <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
20:25:12 <Bike> do people use python 3? i seriously don't know
20:25:16 <elliott> as opposed to biologist jokes
20:25:27 <shachaf> hey Bike tell us a biologist jokes
20:25:30 <Bike> biologists don't have jokes, we just spray each other with owl shit
20:25:31 <oerjan> `addquote <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes? <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
20:25:37 <HackEgo> 1038) <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes? <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
20:25:58 <elliott> This article lists the fictitious people, i.e., nonexistent people, which, unlike fictional people, are those somebody has claimed to actually exist.
20:26:40 <fizzie> Bike: But if you do list(x for x in (1,2,3)), x isn't.
20:26:47 <oerjan> does it include people who started out fictional but were picked up by conspiracy theorists
20:26:55 <Bike> fizzie: fantastic.
20:27:18 <fizzie> (Generator expressions apparently have different rules than list comprehensions, or some such thing.)
20:27:20 <kmc> i wrote a little python 3
20:27:27 <kmc> i think mostly no, people don't use it yet
20:27:37 <kmc> Django added support for Python 3 in their latest version, released a few months ago
20:27:41 <kmc> "experimental support"
20:27:55 <fizzie> Python 3: it's like Perl 6 for the Pythoneers?
20:28:03 <kmc> not quite that bad
20:28:13 <Lumpio-> Python 3 has actual strings
20:28:19 <Lumpio-> That alone is a reason to use it.
20:28:36 <kmc> Lumpio-: I don't think I'd put it that way -- the major change is just that they renamed str,unicode to bytes,str
20:28:41 <kmc> which is definitely a better name
20:28:58 <kmc> but the new str type is a lot like the old unicode type
20:28:58 <Lumpio-> Yes, and went through the entire standard library to make sure everything reacts to unicode in a sane way
20:29:11 <Lumpio-> The mere fact that the default string is unicode drives people towards supporting it properly.
20:29:21 <nooodl> well non-unicode strings are still strings
20:29:21 <kmc> for example if you open a file you now need to specify the 'b' mode if you want bytes instead of string
20:29:26 <Bike> this paper involves pattern matching with random scope. nice
20:29:31 <kmc> Lumpio-: I agree that it's an important change, I just think "has actual strings
20:29:35 <kmc> " is a misleading way to describe it
20:29:52 <Lumpio-> nooodl: Well, not text strings
20:30:00 <Lumpio-> I think the word "string" evokes the idea of text in most people.
20:30:03 <Lumpio-> Well, most programmers at least.
20:30:07 <Bike> https://python3wos.appspot.com/ well then
20:30:16 <kmc> people need to start thinking of Unicode as /the/ standard and not some weird side thing that those unreasonable foreigners want
20:30:34 * Bike glances at zzo38
20:30:45 <elliott> paul graham got flamed a bunch for not having utf-8 support in arc :P
20:30:50 <elliott> though of course people will flame for anything
20:30:59 <Bike> q: who cares about arc
20:31:02 <fizzie> "string" evokes the idea of "contiguous sequence of characters terminated by and including the first null character" in C programmers.
20:31:04 <kmc> only english speaking people in silicon valley deserve to use hacker news
20:31:12 <kmc> fizzie: of bytes, you mean
20:31:16 <kmc> or 'char's
20:31:25 <fizzie> kmc: No, characters. That was a literal quote from the standard.
20:31:28 <Bike> also i think of unicode as default, i think. this is probably because i was exposed to way too much shift-jis before i even started programming
20:31:45 <Lumpio-> I'd like to do web stuff in python but python3 web stuff is still kind of not-there-yet
20:31:47 <nooodl> aren't "characters" just "values of the 'char' type", though
20:32:13 <Lumpio-> Yeah, that type name is not a good one so we should ignore that
20:32:15 <Lumpio-> As char is not a character.
20:32:17 <Bike> and like.... mojibake is......
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20:32:32 <Lumpio-> Why would you shift-jis D:
20:32:34 <fizzie> nooodl: For those C programmers, sure.
20:32:44 <Bike> actually funnily enough in my shitty setup the name of my blog displays wrong because it's in russian, which is nice because it's the russian term for mojibake
20:33:26 <Bike> Lumpio-: i think it's probably ok as long as it's actually indicated as such, so my computer doesn't try to display it as latin?
20:33:30 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I suppose due to whatever program you are working with, if it have to use Shift-JIS.
20:33:44 <zzo38> I myself use ASCII as default.
20:34:12 <zzo38> (The reason isn't due to racism, but due to simplicity.)
20:34:30 <Bike> toki pona is simpler than english. your move!!!
20:34:42 <Lumpio-> "but English is my native language, that's more simple you silly foreigners"
20:35:04 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I don't mean the *language*, I mean the *character encoding*.
20:35:20 <Bike> which is unsuitable for most languages.
20:35:45 <Lumpio-> Including Fine and Proper(tm) English
20:35:52 <Lumpio-> For one ASCII doesn't have curly quotes.
20:35:59 <zzo38> Yes, I know, they say it isn't even completely suitable for English, but that is OK.
20:36:07 <Lumpio-> (in b4 somebody mentions an ASCII variant that does)
20:36:16 <kmc> "people should just learn English if they want to use computers" *ignores that using computers is now a global necessity*
20:36:31 <Lumpio-> I use UTF-8 by default because it's the only sane encoding that does English, Finnish and Japanese.
20:36:39 <shachaf> kmc: learning English is a global necessity hth
20:36:44 <kmc> Lumpio-: you could stop after "encoding"
20:36:46 <zzo38> People should learn to type fast if you want to use computers.
20:36:56 <Lumpio-> Oh I don't mind software being in English. Might all be in English for all I care.
20:37:04 <Lumpio-> But I'd like my content in multiple languages
20:37:11 <nooodl> u'oo\u0300o'[::-1] # òoo
20:37:15 <nooodl> ^ this is still dumb imo
20:37:22 <kmc> i can't fault small projects for not having the resources to translate the interface into 100 different languages
20:37:33 <kmc> i can fault them if their code is so shitty that /users/ can't write content in their own languages
20:37:35 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I agree, but there are other ways to do it, too, depend what you are wanting to do, such as the software. Especially since even Unicode fails at some things.
20:37:40 <nooodl> why isn't o\u0300 considered to be one char
20:37:44 <nooodl> is this just a stupid thing python does
20:37:50 <Bike> it would be cool if they got like, the most used languages, at least.
20:38:05 <Bike> what is it now... english, french, spanish, arabic, mandarin, and... i think one more
20:38:07 <Lumpio-> Well that's a funny feature of Unicode.
20:38:12 <shachaf> Presumably Python counts codepoints, not characters.
20:38:14 <Lumpio-> I'm sure Python has normalization/denormalization functions
20:38:18 <Bike> oh yeah, probably hindi
20:38:23 <kmc> yeah module unicodedata
20:38:25 <Lumpio-> Most languages count codepoints.
20:38:39 <Bike> oh oops, it's russian, not french.
20:38:39 <zzo38> TeX has a way to allow entering curly quotation marks, and so on, even Greek alphabets, and you can write macros in TeX to allow it to read other encodings (including UTF-8), so you can make it read whatever you want even though it is ASCII by default.
20:38:49 <Bike> according to 2010 ethnologue, anyway.
20:38:49 <elliott> unicode strings shouldn't have reverse or length functions
20:38:50 <kmc> you can't say that ASCII is good enough for English when it doesn't even contain the currency symbol of England!
20:39:07 <zzo38> If writing a program to deal with things that use Shift-JIS, then the program will support Shift-JIS too in those cases.
20:39:22 <Bike> then bengali, portuguese, malay, japanese, and THEN french
20:39:43 <Bike> ...huh, there are more lusophones than francophones, that's not what i expected actually.
20:39:43 <zzo38> If a program that is mainly ASCII but is writing GD3 tags in VGM files, which are UTF-16 encoded, then this program can read UTF-8 input in those cases in order to convert to UTF-16, even if the rest of the program is ASCII.
20:39:53 <nooodl> wow i thought french was *huge*
20:40:11 <Bike> well eleventh place still means over a hundred million people.
20:40:19 <Bike> er, 200 million.
20:40:26 <zzo38> Bike: All that means is that the population is too much.
20:42:05 <Bike> Is this some Malthusian thing you're getting into
20:42:24 <Bike> also there's not another Chinese until the 16th position, dang
20:42:36 <zzo38> I don't know what "some Malthusian thing" is.
20:43:02 <nooodl> sometimes zzo38 reminds me of an infocom text adventure parser
20:43:05 <Bike> Malthus. British guy, usually comes up when people talk about "overpopulation"
20:44:11 <zzo38> Well, I am not British guy, but I am Canadian.
20:44:28 <Bike> indeed. you are not british guy.
20:46:16 <kmc> The Adventures of British Guy
20:47:31 <kmc> don't you have enough citizenships
20:48:22 <fizzie> ASCII's also missing þ ƿ ð ȝ ſ æ œ so how's you supposed to be writing proper English instead of some modern nonsense with it huh?
20:48:41 <shachaf> kmc: what does "enough citizenships" mean
20:48:53 <zzo38> fizzie: It is true, you can't, but it is still good enough for a lot of things, anyways.
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20:49:34 <zzo38> You can write Toki Pona with ASCII too, but that doesn't make it English.
20:49:45 <kmc> also a lot of people in English-speaking countries have non-ASCII names
20:49:47 <zzo38> It also doesn't make it Chinese.
20:49:54 <kmc> like Tobias Fünke
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20:52:53 <oerjan> kmc: fünky names don't count hth
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20:54:53 <zzo38> Don't you know that ASCII already does some other things such as backspacing over a character to overtype it to make underlined or whatever, and to shift out to another character set, and so on?
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20:55:08 <kmc> how many systems implement that zzo38
20:55:20 <Bike_> it's going to be so fucking cool when i get an internet connection that isn't made of spit
20:55:25 <kmc> also if you include codes to shift to a different character set, then you're not sending just ASCII anymore
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20:55:34 <kmc> and the result is probably much much worse than UTF-8
20:55:44 <kmc> which is also a superset of ASCII but without locking shifts
20:55:54 <kmc> i don't know why i'm arguing with zzo38 about this though
20:56:00 <kmc> maybe next I'll argue about why HTTP is superior to Gopher
20:56:02 * Bike watches a billion errors pop up in his uninterruptible download
20:56:50 <zzo38> kmc: Linux implements the shift-out and shift-in codes to make degree sign and a few other things.
20:57:17 <kmc> yeah ISO 2022 codes for the DEC ACS are still pretty widely implemented, unfortunately
20:57:33 <kmc> but who still has backspace for combining characters
20:57:45 <zzo38> Well, I think they are good, and I still use them when applicable.
20:58:05 <kmc> ISO 2022 is pretty complicated
20:58:09 <kmc> and it's not stateless like UTF-8
20:58:54 <zzo38> Well, the subset used by Linux works a bit better. And it isn't true that UTF-8 is stateless, due to Arabic text shaping and RTL and so on.
20:59:04 <kmc> yeah, true
20:59:17 <kmc> UTF-8 as an encoding for codepoints in the Universal Character Set is stateless
20:59:38 <kmc> but if you move from UCS to Unicode then you now have a bunch of character properties and instructions on how to display the characters
20:59:48 <kmc> i don't think ISO 2022 has a better story for bidi though...
21:00:10 <kmc> if you shift into an Arabic codepage you will still need to know how to join up characters
21:00:31 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I use the very simple subset, not the compilcated one, anyways.
21:01:06 <zzo38> Actually, as an encoding of numbers UTF-8 still depends on multiple bytes and keeping a state between them, but it is easy to rewind, and UTF-8 is a pretty good way to do this in a way which is compatible with principle of extended ASCII.
21:01:30 <zzo38> I am just saying that the actual character set it is used with (Unicode) is not very good; like you wait, you now have a bunch of character properties and instructions on how to display the characters, and that kind of stuff.
21:03:26 <zzo38> However, some programs might read UTF-8 and not care about actual Unicode characters; for example, VGMCK reads UTF-8 only as numbers and then converts them into UTF-16, and doesn't actually care what characters anything represents, except for surrogates, and ASCII codes which aren't overlong.
21:03:47 <kmc> a lot of programs are like that really
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21:04:00 <zzo38> Yes, there may be.
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21:05:09 <zzo38> SQLite does this too, although using a bit different algorithm (which still works for valid UTF-8); in most cases you can still turn it off by casting to blob but there are some functions where this doesn't work and I think this can be considered a bug.
21:05:25 <shachaf> zzo38 has such a great way of thinking about things
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21:16:11 <zzo38> Overlong encodings happens to be the only way in VGMCK to write GD3 tags containing trailing ASCII spaces (although usually there is no need to do that anyways).
21:21:04 <zzo38> Does any SQL allow you to make anonymous tables, triggers, views, etc, and to make overrides on views which can be stacked together?
21:29:00 <kmc> i don't know what you mean by 'anonymous tables' but maybe nested select is like that?
21:30:38 <zzo38> No, I mean a table that actually stores data in the database and can be referenced by a value in a table, but you can create them without having to specify a name and conflict with existing tables. Similar idea with triggers, views, overrides, etc.
21:31:22 <zzo38> SQL doesn't normally have overrides on views, though, I think (I mean overriding to read the view; overriding to write them is already implemented by triggers)
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21:48:41 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/wbFVRHb.png
21:51:52 <elliott> wow i was going to say yes too
21:51:55 <kmc> http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com/ http://sigbovik.org/2013/
21:52:09 <elliott> yo does anyone know about: xmonad, dzen2, getting it to highlight urgent workspaces properly
21:52:50 <kmc> nobody knows
21:54:29 <Cryovat> I just had a wonderful idea for a language :D
21:54:36 <Cryovat> It should essentially be C#
21:54:48 <Cryovat> But the compiler will detect redundancy and pointless casts
21:55:02 <Cryovat> If there is too much of that, it should delete itself and the IDE
21:55:23 <Bike> what's redundancy
21:55:57 <Cryovat> if (foo == true) { bar = true; }
21:56:20 <Bike> why's that redundant
21:59:11 <zzo38> bar|=foo; Is it OK?
22:08:34 <tromp> the compiler should simply suggest: did you mean "if ((foo == true) == true) " ?
22:09:59 <kmc> beginners often do if (x) { return true; } else { return false; }
22:10:31 <zzo38> kmc: I have seen that; I have even seen: if (x) { return true; } else { return true; }
22:10:41 <elliott> x == true is pretty common too
22:10:54 <kmc> well in some languages that's not equivalent to 'x'
22:11:11 <elliott> nobody cares about that though
22:11:16 <zzo38> It also depend where it is used, such as use in a boolean, etc
22:11:17 <elliott> also when it isn't equivalent to x it's the wrong thing to right
22:11:23 <elliott> you should say x == 1 instead
22:11:25 <elliott> since clearly x isn't a boolean
22:11:26 <Bike> the wrong thing to right.
22:11:45 <Bike> you can have multiple things treated as true, including but not limited to booleans
22:11:47 <elliott> i see x == True a lot in haskell even
22:12:07 <Bike> in which case you might want to check that x is a true boolean, as distinct from checking whether x is true
22:12:20 <Bike> you know this so i said it.
22:12:27 <elliott> well i don't believe in variables having several possible types
22:12:30 <kmc> you said what everyone was thinking
22:12:34 <elliott> it's not part of my religion
22:12:51 <Bike> what about tagged unions!! or something i don't care.
22:12:59 <elliott> i actually didn't even think of that possible use before you mentioned it
22:13:11 <elliott> so i guess i have indoctrinated myself well
22:13:25 <elliott> if it's a tagged union you wouldn't say (x == true) :p
22:13:33 <zzo38> Even in Haskell? Yes, I have seen it a bit in a Haskell code too, which is even worse than making it in a C code.
22:13:35 <Bike> wouldn't you elliott. WOULDN'T YOU
22:13:37 <elliott> ALSO booleans are still the devil
22:13:51 <Bike> do you use trivalent logicks
22:13:57 <Koen_> all the booleans? they are legion
22:14:02 <elliott> see e.g. http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/boolean-blindness/
22:14:35 <Bike> oh right, my browser can't render text right now
22:14:38 <Bike> god i suck at computers
22:14:51 <elliott> would you like me to paste the whole thing into #esoteric
22:15:08 <zzo38> No, why don't you download it using a command-line?
22:15:37 <zzo38> Can't download it using a command-line?
22:15:39 <Bike> whatever i think i get the idea
22:15:48 <Bike> if you have x == 4 you want that to be a proof that x equals 4 or something
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22:16:01 <Bike> ok well: fuck.
22:16:06 <elliott> it's more like often you don't want to separate the test and resulting computation in the first place
22:16:30 <elliott> like "case m of Nothing -> ...; Just x -> ...x..." is better than "if isNothing m then ... else ...(fromJust m)..."
22:16:58 <zzo38> If it is a test in a compiler and using optimization, then it can be a proof that x equals 4, possibly.
22:17:00 <elliott> QUALITY PAPER™ /The view from the left/™ shows this even applies to things like numeric comparisons and subtraction in a dependently-typed setting
22:17:10 <zzo38> elliott: Why don't you just use the "maybe" function which is for that purpose?
22:17:41 <elliott> case...of has nicer syntax when you would have a lambda for the just case
22:18:24 <Bike> ok well that's not really disagreeable, and thus boring, so there
22:18:29 <Bike> disagreeenting
22:18:49 <elliott> you'd be surprised how often people disagree with it
22:19:12 <elliott> ALSO why do your precious lisps have this stuff all over the place then?????????
22:19:50 <Bike> no i wouldn't be, remember that perl guy i mentioned? he said he didn't get maybe because you should just check if the thing is in a table before extracting it (re a hopefully obvious example)
22:20:09 <Bike> ALSO because are you six, or rather why are you humorously acting six
22:20:29 <kmc> pattern matching?!??!??? useless academic nonsense imo
22:20:50 <Bike> man my browser is still fucked. this sucks. stupid ubuntu
22:21:03 <elliott> Bike: pretty sure you'll find that lisp sux
22:21:11 <elliott> Bike: also has that guy even heard of a race condition lol
22:21:27 <elliott> (race conditions: ALSO THE FAULT OF BOOLEANS)
22:21:42 <Bike> that was the point at which i decided to stop caring even more than i'd already stopped
22:21:54 <Bike> double stopped. stoppppped.
22:22:40 <nooodl> whoa i'm kinda enlightened by booleans being bad here
22:23:03 <Bike> i <3 absolutist principles
22:23:26 <nooodl> imo remove Bool from haskell :-)
22:24:11 <elliott> i also hate strings, even unicode strings ~getting controversial in here~
22:24:16 <Bike> this one weird old trick elliotts don't want you to know
22:24:24 <Bike> i like strings. they're good for pumping lemmas. alt: what
22:24:44 <elliott> still doing good with the six year old thing??
22:25:00 <Bike> still doing good
22:25:53 <Bike> do you want streams or something instead
22:25:55 <nooodl> When dealing with “computers”, at least their physical manifestations and not some abstract mathematical idea, there is exactly one type, a boolean bit, and exactly one operation: NAND (Not AND). For those unfamiliar with this principle, I suggest the wikipedia article on NAND logic.
22:25:58 <Koen_> elliott: so I read the article you pointed to and I don't get it
22:26:10 <Bike> nooodl: lol beautiful
22:26:22 <elliott> Bike: well i think it's largely an artefact of history that "sequence of codepoints" is a thing people care about
22:26:27 <Bike> take that, MATHEMATICIANS with your fancy "numbers"
22:26:35 <elliott> rather than like "sequence of characters with X, Y and Z formatting"
22:26:42 <Bike> oh uh i'm used to the latter
22:26:44 <elliott> like .txt is a pretty weird file format, really
22:26:49 <Bike> it is what i think of when i think "string"
22:27:01 <elliott> you think of something with formatting when you think of "string"??
22:27:15 <Koen_> I thought .txt had no formatting at all
22:27:16 <Bike> well... okay not formatting. but characters, not codepoints.
22:27:38 <elliott> i mean it's kind of a deeply ingrained thing
22:27:40 <Koen_> like if I open TextEdit and create a new file and write "hello" and save it as hello.txt and then cat hello.txt I'd get "hello"
22:27:54 <elliott> given that strings of this kind are ubiquitous at every level of unix and networking protocols
22:27:54 <kmc> nooodl: where's that comment from
22:28:02 <Bike> though technically lisp characters (whoa man!!) can (don't nowadays) have formatting and fot info in them.
22:28:04 <Koen_> kmc: from elliott's article on booleans
22:28:10 <elliott> Koen_: yes that is because terminals are biased to strings
22:28:14 <elliott> i didn't write that article :P
22:28:26 <Bike> unfortunately lisp characters turned out to be mildly terrible, so.
22:28:30 <Koen_> kmc: from the artile elliott pointed to a few moments ago
22:28:44 <kmc> type theory is a lie because computers are made of bits
22:28:55 <kmc> i love how many ignorant statements from programmers boil down to "Yeah! Fuck abstraction!"
22:29:09 <kmc> like all the complaining about how software isn't written in assembly anymore
22:29:12 <kmc> and it's just too easy to make stuff
22:29:17 <Bike> i'll show you my ab straction *flexes*
22:29:49 <Koen_> well yeah computers are dumb really I mean electricity going "on" and "off"? I have that in a simple lightbulb I don't need a freaking computer
22:30:23 <elliott> Koen_: if you were hoping i could shed light on the meaning of the article then i will need more detail as to what you did not understand about it btw
22:30:56 <zzo38> Koen_: Well, in a computer it goes automatically and faster.
22:31:06 <Bike> keep this in mind, koen.
22:31:24 <Koen_> elliott: I don't know it just felt empty you know?
22:31:32 <elliott> even dijkstra made the error of conflating booleans and propositions btw
22:31:45 <Bike> this article really left my soul wanting more.
22:31:50 <zzo38> kmc: It depend much of what computer; if writing a program only for a specific computer then assembly language is OK (and this is still done), but often you will make a portable program in C, or whatever, or use other programming languages for other purposes.
22:32:15 <kmc> thanks for clearing that up
22:32:33 <Koen_> zzo38: yeah well i'll practice hitting the switch back and forth you'd be amazed what I can do with my fingers
22:33:03 <Bike> hey you know what's a cool electromechanical system? fingers *winks seductively at elliott*
22:33:22 <kmc> never seen em fing
22:33:35 <nooodl> i wanna learn z80 assembly so i can program cool stuff on my ti calculator
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22:34:13 <zzo38> nooodl: Yes, that would make the program faster than the built-in programming language, and doing some additional things such as grayscale instead of only black and white
22:34:34 <Bike> it's cool how thanks to twitter i can see the same person say the same thing in two different places, rapidly
22:34:55 <zzo38> It isn't only Twitter that does that.
22:34:55 <elliott> Bike: are you hitting on me
22:34:58 <Bike> "hm that was a cool thing, i should put it on my twitter" "hm that was a cool thing, i should discuss it on irc"
22:35:13 <Bike> elliott: i am hitting on your histamine complex
22:35:16 <zzo38> It also isn't only IRC that does that.
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22:35:50 <zzo38> You can do that on any computer.
22:36:30 <Koen_> #I_do_it_in_real_life_and_I'm_not_ashamed
22:36:56 <Bike> koen sits at his computer, pronouncing apostrophes.
22:37:19 <Koen_> it's a breathtaking activity
22:38:51 <nooodl> the "true hashtag way" to do things is drop all spaces to make sure nobody can read your bullshit
22:39:09 <nooodl> (instead of substituting underscores)
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22:45:00 <nooodl^> man. asm is actually really easy
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22:46:46 <zzo38> I have never written program for TI calculators in ASM, but I have written the Famicom Hangman game in 6502 assembly language.
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22:47:59 <nooodl^> well also make sure it isn't x86? I hear that's bad
22:48:23 <zzo38> Modern x86 is really complicated and stupid.
22:48:31 <Bike> much simpler to have conditionals on every instruction or w/e pick an architecture
22:48:36 <zzo38> Older x86 is a bit OK.
22:48:56 <nooodl^> doesn't it have 7 character long mnemonics or something
22:49:22 <Bike> yes. that had better not be your idea of "bad" though.
22:50:37 <zzo38> The mnemonics aren't a machine code.
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22:52:24 <nooodl^> well if they'd be all like 'jump_eq' that would be nice, but I'm remembering stuff like 'cdhlrxz_'
22:52:57 <nooodl^> I know those are both pretty awful examples
22:54:24 <kmc> x86 is super complicated, but if you are writing assembly by hand, you can use a pretty simple subset
22:54:57 <kmc> it's more complicated if you need to do gnarly systems programming, high performance SIMD code, or read the output of a compiler
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22:55:35 <zzo38> If you writing it by hand, you can also use things that some compilers won't do such as BCD. In 64-bit mode they removed BCD but added a bunch of junk.
22:58:02 <nooodl^> I wonder if there are any assembly dialects where the "human" code looks like a modern programming language. like you'd write "a = 5;" instead of "lda #5"
22:58:20 <pikhq> They're called "high level assemblers".
22:59:33 <kmc> maybe you've all seen, but http://theworstroom.tumblr.com/
22:59:35 <Bike> so does nooodl get to learn about that thing i learned about the other day
22:59:36 <kmc> is fantastic
22:59:40 <shachaf> kmc: If you're generating it with a compiler, you can also use a pretty simple subset!
22:59:51 <kmc> shachaf: yes, but not if you want best performance
23:00:19 <pikhq> The thing that makes x86 so complex is just that there's so much of it.
23:00:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Mainly, yes.
23:00:58 <nooodl^> not today, I'm going to bed right now, my arm is starting to hurt from holding my phone :(
23:01:04 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.).
23:01:39 <kmc> mostly yeah
23:01:42 <nooodl^> technically I've already gone to bed I just need to sleep in it hth
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23:02:17 <kmc> being CISC, there are some ways in which x86 assembly is easier to write by hand
23:02:20 <kmc> than other architectures
23:02:49 <tswett> So I guess I may write a thesis about context-free languages.
23:02:52 <pikhq> What with that being the original design intent. :)
23:03:17 <tswett> The original design intent was that it be easy to write by hand? I guess we should abandon it.
23:04:13 <kmc> the heyday of RISC has come and gone, though
23:04:31 <kmc> having lots of simple, wide instructions isn't so good when memory bandwidth is everything
23:05:03 <pikhq> tswett: It turns out that it happens to have a side benefit in modern times.
23:05:10 <Bike> that's redundant, elliott
23:05:21 <pikhq> x86 tends to have smaller code, which leads to better performance.
23:05:32 <Bike> You hate everything.
23:05:37 <elliott> shachaf: @ runs on x86-64 because i'm too cheap to buy an fpga
23:05:37 <pikhq> That said, it's not a design intent or anything, so in principle it could be improved upon.
23:05:44 <kmc> and clock speeds have stopped increasing, but transistor density is still going up
23:05:46 <shachaf> Bike: There are lots of things elliott doesn't hate.
23:05:53 <shachaf> Bike: The _The View From the Left_.
23:06:01 <kmc> so you can more and more afford complicated decode logic and stuff
23:06:09 <elliott> it's /The view from the left/ you shachaf you
23:06:29 <shachaf> elliott: Why is it /s and not _s.
23:06:31 <pikhq> kmc: And some really *quite* specialized instructions too.
23:06:33 <shachaf> Or do you mean the capitalization?
23:06:35 <elliott> kmc: it's cute that clock speeds are going down
23:06:39 <zzo38> Have you ever heard of "worse-is-better" programming? Simplicity is the most important consideration, and simplicity of the implementation is a bit better than simplicity of the interface.
23:06:39 <elliott> shachaf: i meant the capitalisation as well as the //
23:06:48 <shachaf> I guess you're right on the capitalisation.
23:06:49 <pikhq> Like SSE-4.2's CRC opcode.
23:06:55 <shachaf> But it's surely _s? Why would it be /s?
23:06:57 <kmc> ARM is getting very popular but it's also getting less RISCy
23:07:01 <elliott> because //s look more italic
23:07:10 <pikhq> Shame it's using a somewhat less popular polynomial, but eh.
23:07:12 <shachaf> But italicization is the devil?
23:07:30 <zzo38> Modern ARM has a lot of stupid stuff, which is one reason why I wanted to make the computer out of ARM2.
23:07:48 <elliott> why can't i switch workspaces
23:07:55 <shachaf> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
23:07:58 <shachaf> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:08:00 <shachaf> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:08:15 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_13/screen1.png
23:08:30 <shachaf> zzo38: gopher: url plz thx
23:09:54 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/Iimages/13screen1.png
23:11:09 <shachaf> I don't understand that picture.
23:11:57 <zzo38> shachaf: It is a computer game (MegaZeux).
23:12:11 <kmc> chrome doesn't gopher :(
23:12:24 <kmc> neither does firefox
23:12:31 <kmc> more like firefucks
23:12:38 <zzo38> kmc: True, but you can use other standalone gopher clients. FireFox will with a extension "OverbiteFF".
23:12:53 <zzo38> (There is a extension for Chrome too but it won't work.)
23:13:31 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, or just use echo image/13screen1.png | nc zzo38computer.org 70 > screen1.png or something like that
23:13:49 <kmc> let us do that
23:13:59 <kmc> 3 File not found
23:14:12 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I misspelled it.
23:14:46 <zzo38> It is only complicated because you don't understand it.
23:15:03 <kmc> $.ajax("gopher://zzo38computer.org/Iimages/13screen1.png")
23:15:19 <Bike> web framework of the future
23:15:51 <shachaf> src/audio.c:48:26: fatal error: vorbis/codec.h: No such file or directory
23:16:03 <kmc> apt-get install *
23:16:20 <elliott> it would be nice to have a debian system with every package
23:16:23 <elliott> never have to worry about installing again
23:17:13 <zzo38> I think if you type the name of program that isn't installed, some computers will tell you what the proper package is to install that program.
23:18:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Select a world file; I will provide some.
23:18:12 <zzo38> Or make your own (push F8 to enter the editor).
23:18:32 <zzo38> I have my own fork of MegaZeux, which is somewhat outdated though, but you can install both if you want (I have done).
23:18:51 <zzo38> I have them only in HTTP at this time, but my server does support headerless HTTP which means you can download them without HTTP.
23:19:01 <zzo38> They are also compressed meaning you need to unzip them.
23:19:18 <zzo38> Here is one: http://zzo38computer.org/mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip
23:19:28 <zzo38> Here is more: http://zzo38computer.org/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ascmzxto.zip
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23:19:48 <zzo38> shachaf: You don't need a fork, but I find the fork has a much improved editor.
23:20:03 <shachaf> Can I run those without the fork?
23:20:21 <zzo38> Yes, you can, but http://zzo38computer.org/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXII.ZIP requires the fork.
23:20:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Uh, I have a problem.
23:20:53 <shachaf> My right arrow key and End key are broken.
23:20:58 <zzo38> (Even the forked version normally uses compatibility mode, so even though I used the forked version to make these world files, they can be played in any version.)
23:21:04 <shachaf> Ever since I spilled some liquid on my laptop.
23:21:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, too bad, the game requires the right arrow key.
23:21:15 <shachaf> Can I still play potion_of_confusing without them?
23:21:25 <shachaf> potion_of_confusing sounds really good.
23:21:27 <zzo38> You do need the right arrow key, but not the end key.
23:21:31 <shachaf> Can you give me an hjkl-compatible version?
23:21:31 -!- Regis__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:21:36 <zzo38> Connect another keyboard.
23:21:58 <zzo38> shachaf: No, due to how MegaZeux is working. However, you can try to modify the source-code of MegaZeux to accept HJKL, but then some other games will fail.
23:22:54 <shachaf> Does potion_of_confusing use hjkl for anything else?
23:23:02 <Bike> Super Mega Zeux
23:24:44 <zzo38> No, this game doesn't.
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23:27:16 <zzo38> I think you can also use a joystick, though.
23:28:02 <Sgeo_> If you give an API a URL, and you can see content at that URL, would you expect the API to interact with the URL in some way?
23:28:05 <Sgeo_> Try to retrieve it?
23:28:20 -!- Regis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:28:27 <Sgeo_> I did, and based on that assumption, decided that some code was wrong
23:28:30 <Sgeo_> And argued as much
23:28:42 <Sgeo_> Then... worked out that my assumption was wrong.
23:28:58 <Sgeo_> In fact, the code looks at the URL, takes the last part, and sends it somewhere else entirely
23:28:59 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I patch megazeux? :-(
23:29:07 <shachaf> Do you happen to have a patch readymade?
23:29:08 <Sgeo_> Making code that looks like it shouldn't work, work completely
23:29:28 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I don't. Modify the source-codes yourself (I think in game.c or game2.c)
23:30:27 <elliott> shachaf: just use an on-screen keyboard?
23:30:28 <shachaf> zzo38: I tried changing keysym.h but it didn't work.
23:32:34 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: gone).
23:34:33 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh 118 is also good
23:35:39 <zzo38> shachaf: game.c near "if((get_key_status(keycode_internal, IKEY_UP)) &&"
23:36:52 <shachaf> zzo38: Right, but I swapped IKEY_UP with IKEY_k
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23:44:31 -!- kmc has set topic: We drank all the throwing wine | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:48:53 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I make it work?
23:49:01 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:49:03 <shachaf> I changed the values in event.c and it still doesn't seem to.
23:50:43 <shachaf> zzo38: I *really* want to play potion_of_confusing...
23:51:56 <shachaf> I should have been messing with event_sdl.c!!!!!!!!!!
23:55:33 <kmc> http://theworstroom.tumblr.com/post/50906877201/east-elmhurst-queens-450-00-kiralik-salon this seems like a p. good deal really
23:55:55 <Bike> wow i was just thinking that i should find that tumblr again now that my browser isn't shit
23:56:42 <elliott> how does anyone live in nyc
23:57:03 <Bike> wow i... new york...
23:57:04 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm in a big blank room.
23:57:04 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:57:43 <Bike> elliott: well i'm pretty sure like fourteen billion people do, unless maybe they're lying.
23:58:06 <elliott> my impression of new york is that there are toom any buildings and they are all gigantic and claustrophobic and everything is way too high up and also it's too bright and noisy all the time
23:58:22 <kmc> f you, urban density is great
23:58:32 <kmc> there's a reason people are willing to pay outrageous money to live there
23:59:18 <elliott> pretty sure it's actually the worst and terrible and unbearable
23:59:43 <Bike> elliott is an unevolved human who can not yet breathe asphalt
23:59:48 <elliott> n.b. i might be both a bit claustrophobic and scared of heights and also awful at dealing with noise so i'm not the most objective judge here
23:59:56 <elliott> and also i've never been to nyc ever
23:59:59 <elliott> but i'm pretty sure i'd hate it
00:00:01 <shachaf> possibly nice to live in too?? i wouldn't know
00:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> edinburgh's quite nice because it's central enough not to be the back of beyond but small enough to not be overwhelming
00:02:04 <kmc> overall i enjoyed living in NYC
00:02:37 <elliott> http://theworstroom.tumblr.com/post/50288690923/union-square-manhattan-1000-00-i-am-looking http://theworstroom.tumblr.com/post/50280267918/upper-east-side-manhattan-1600-00-twin-bed
00:03:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i feel like i could probably live in edinburgh
00:03:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is it more or less busy than newcastle
00:03:15 <kmc> i think most of these are illegal too
00:03:46 <Bike> how do you even make a law against something as stupid as trying to encourage people to live in your closet
00:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean it's still the capital, there's plenty of actual /stuff/
00:04:25 <kmc> lexande's room had a sticker on the inside of the door with instructions to check with the landlord before posting it on craigslist
00:04:32 <kmc> regarding what one could and couldn't say
00:05:17 <kmc> he paid $1000/mo for a windowless closet above a nightclub that was named after and still bore the signange of a chinese erotic massage parlour
00:05:48 <kmc> but it was in lower manhattan steps from the subway
00:06:01 <Bike> long, sensual steps
00:06:22 <elliott> i seriously couldn't live in a room without a window
00:06:43 <kmc> i lived in Battery Park City which is like... boring and nice
00:06:44 <shachaf> hey i live in a room without a window
00:07:00 <kmc> far away from stuff by lower manhattan standards, but still close enough that I could walk to work in TriBeCa
00:07:08 <kmc> and much cheaper than a few blocks east of there
00:07:25 <kmc> i hear they got a Shake Shack nearby after I left :/
00:07:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hey there's plenty of stuff in newcastle!
00:11:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i know for a fact you are going to use this against me at some point but i actually kind of like scotland
00:11:56 <elliott> (says the guy who has been there like two times in his life)
00:14:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Some of the rooms don't work; the game isn't complete.
00:14:18 <zzo38> All the rooms containing things do work though; try those.
00:14:25 <shachaf> zzo38: This game is confusing.
00:14:50 <zzo38> You can push F3 to save game, F9 to quick save (not ask for filename), and F4 and F10 to restore. You can also push R to reset.
00:15:00 <zzo38> Push ENTER to list your ammunition, keys, etc
00:15:07 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is how it is called.
00:15:52 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Not in MegaZeux. In MegaZeux, F5 is used to switch between high-bombs and low-bombs.
00:16:07 <zzo38> (If you don't have any bombs, it won't be useful to do so, however.)
00:16:08 <shachaf> zzo38 is telling the truth
00:16:22 <shachaf> I have some low-bombs in the place where Jesus saves.
00:16:37 <shachaf> Four bombs? Are you sure that is sufficient?
00:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i keep meaning to get some paint and add 'ctrl+s' to those jesus saves signs i see on the road to ireland
00:16:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Definitely. I have tested all of these levels.
00:17:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dont u mean C-x C-s
00:17:51 <Bike> passes to moses, SCORE <- congratulations you have been outjoked by bash.org
00:18:11 <zzo38> Jesus saves...and takes only half damage.
00:18:43 <mnoqy> ^W (w is for write??)
00:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i can't be expected to think up good material on the way to ireland
00:19:04 <mnoqy> btw dont do that........thats horrible.................can u believe how much of a nerd that would be
00:19:12 <zzo38> You can push F1 for some "non-descript play tips" and other information, much of which is simply wrong, though (I didn't write it, however).
00:19:45 <Bike> also i've never seen 'jesus saves' on a church sign, they always have low-key harmless jokes
00:19:54 <Bike> imo britain needs a sense of humor
00:21:18 <shachaf> (did you know ZZ saves and quits in vim????????????)
00:21:34 <zzo38> Currently, only the six passages near the south of the starting room works (so does the sign (represented by a brown uppercase gamma), though).
00:21:45 <shachaf> elliott: did you know it only saves if you've changed the file???????????
00:21:48 <shachaf> unlike :w which always saves
00:32:40 <zzo38> Did you solve any of these levels? Do you like the sign?
00:33:40 <zzo38> The sign in the starting room of this game.
00:33:50 <zzo38> (The brown gamma sign)
00:34:15 <shachaf> It was too long to bother reading.
00:34:29 <Bike> "Typical typesetting technology is a black box of layout algorithms fed by a markup language that might be Turing-Complete in the same way that felix catos (the common lolcat) is a draft animal."
00:35:30 <shachaf> What things can I type into it?
00:35:48 <zzo38> Type a number into it; it make sound effect.
00:36:36 <zzo38> (It is used mainly for testing and isn't necessary to play the game.)
00:38:06 <shachaf> zzo38: What does the ♥ do?
00:38:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Increase the amount of your current hit points.
00:39:23 <zzo38> (Push ENTER to view your current hit points, ammunition, keys, etc)
00:39:30 <shachaf> What's that O that I can only move left and right?
00:40:27 <zzo38> It is just a special object for this level; that's all it does.
00:40:57 <zzo38> The female sign is a key.
00:41:06 <zzo38> quintopia: The game "Potion of Confusing"
00:41:47 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, but only the six southernmost passages; the other seven don't work. The sign does work, though.
00:42:20 <shachaf> this game should be called Potion of Difficult
00:42:38 <Bike> It sounds like it's pretty confusing as well, though.
00:42:54 <Bike> It could be "Potion of Difficult and also Confuse", maybe.
00:43:17 <zzo38> Yes, it is difficult, especially if you don't how the objects in MegaZeux function. The help file doesn't really explain it very well either, but it can be seen by the source-codes of MegaZeux, if you want to (although, it isn't necessary to do so).
00:44:33 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the X + X + X + thing?
00:44:50 <zzo38> A mine; if you touch it, it will explode.
00:45:35 <zzo38> Note that simply collecting the key isn't sufficient; you have to collect the key and then leave, for it to count.
00:45:38 <shachaf> But I used all four bombs to ge tthere.
00:46:09 <zzo38> Yes. If you saved earlier, you can push F10 to restore, or if you didn't, just push R and go back to the main screen.
00:46:39 <zzo38> Another thing is that sensors can be pushed indirectly by things other than the player; only the player can stand on them.
00:47:26 <zzo38> The red faces that move back and forth are "runners"; they can be killed with bombs or bullets, and if they touch you you will get hurt and that also destroys the runner. Runners can also push and be pushed (but not directly by the player).
00:48:58 <zzo38> Indirectly, by pushing another object that is pushed into that.
00:49:13 <shachaf> Why can I only move this O left and right?
00:49:25 <zzo38> It is a restriction of this level.
00:49:43 <zzo38> Furthermore, the "O" is incapable of being pushed indirectly or pushing things indirectly.
00:50:34 <zzo38> In this level, nothing; it is only there for its standard properties (to be pushed indirectly, and for the player to stand on).
00:51:48 <zzo38> The arrows pointing two ways can be pushed only in the direction it points (unless it is blocked, of course); multiple things can be pushed at once. The squares are boxes and pushable in any direction. The triangles move in the direction they are pointing and push things, unless they are blocked.
00:52:18 <shachaf> What about that tunnel of lava?
00:53:08 <zzo38> You can walk on there if you have an energizer or a potion of fire walking. Otherwise, it kills you. Other objects cannot be pushed over it, although it is possible to shoot over lava (not in this level though; there is no ammunition in this level).
00:53:37 <shachaf> Are there energizers or potions of fire walking on this level?
00:53:38 <zzo38> (The small flashy circle is a energizer.)
00:54:05 <zzo38> That is for you to figure out.
00:54:29 <zzo38> Something of note is that things *can* be pushed over lava if it is being pushed into something that is already on the same square of lava. This is important here.
00:55:11 <zzo38> Only indirectly; I have told you.
00:55:34 <shachaf> What does indirectly mean?
00:56:02 <zzo38> For a description of many of the objects, push F1, ALT+F1, "Mirth of Built-ins", but keep in mind that the document is full of lies (note that I didn't write it).
00:56:26 <zzo38> Indirectly means for example, if there are five boxes in a row, you can push one directly and the other ones in the way are being pushed indirectly.
00:57:06 <shachaf> Oh, you can't push things indirectly with the O.
00:57:22 <zzo38> Like I said, lit bombs can be pushed directly, and so can boxes and sliders (the arrows pointing in two directions); however, the heart, scroll, sensor, runners, and energizer can be pushed only indirectly.
00:57:40 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. That is true.
00:57:44 <Sgeo_> If I just want a laptop to take into bed with me to view stuff on my desktop computer, should I get a Chromebook or are there cheaper?
00:57:48 <zzo38> The key can also be pushed indirectly.
00:58:17 <shachaf> I don't see any objects to push indirectly.
00:59:40 <zzo38> The only two objects on the board that can be directly pushed by the player: the two sliders. But remember, push the delete key to light a bomb on the square you are currently standing (it won't count down until you leave that square).
01:00:20 <shachaf> I've been hurrying for no reason.
01:02:28 <shachaf> zzo38: So this Sensor thing is literally useless?
01:02:42 <zzo38> No. It is useful, for the properties I have described.
01:02:53 <zzo38> (The help file fails to mention those properties; it isn't very good.)
01:03:31 <zzo38> You can try a different level if you want to, as well.
01:03:47 <zzo38> The properties that the player can stand on it, while it can be indirectly pushed by other things.
01:04:25 <zzo38> If the sensor is standing on lava or ice, the player can stand on the sensor without being affected by the lava or ice.
01:04:45 <shachaf> But the player can't push it, right?
01:04:49 <zzo38> (But remember that things cannot be pushed onto lava uless there is already something there to be pushed out of the way.)
01:04:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. (Well, not directly, anyways.)
01:05:12 <shachaf> But I have nothing to push it indirectly with!
01:05:22 <zzo38> You do; you just forgot about it!
01:05:35 <zzo38> Lit bombs can be pushed by the player.
01:05:50 <zzo38> (Lit bombs can also be pushed by other things.)
01:06:10 <shachaf> Does this involve being really fast about things?
01:06:13 <zzo38> (Actually, unlit bombs (there are none in this level) can be pushed by things other than the player)
01:06:24 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. However, you can push F2 to adjust the game speed.
01:06:37 <zzo38> You can also save and restore at any time, any number of save files.
01:09:53 <shachaf> Oops, now my bomb exploded the enemy.
01:10:02 <shachaf> You have to get the timing just right.
01:10:20 <zzo38> This level has no potions, but if you find one that does (the other ones do), read "The Mirth of Built-ins" and scroll down to the "Potion and Ring Effects". However, the part about "effects are limited to the current room only" is untrue; healing, hurting, and invinco aren't the only ones that aren't limited to the current room.
01:11:58 <zzo38> The correct list of potions that aren't limited to the current room are: Health x10, Health x50, Poison, Blind, Lava Walker, Freeze Time, Wind, and Slow Time. The ones that *are* limited to the current room are: Blast, Kill Enemies, Detonate, Banish Dragons, Summon Dragons, and Avalanche.
01:12:05 <shachaf> zzo38: Every time I quick-restore it switches to high-strength bombs.
01:12:16 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is a bug in MegaZeux.
01:12:35 <zzo38> It isn't too serious since you can push F5 or Insert to switch at any time.
01:13:15 <zzo38> (Also, the label "Dud" given in the help file for that potion effect is wrong; its actual label is "No Effect".)
01:13:53 <shachaf> Do I need one bomb to push the enemy and one bomb to push the sensor?
01:14:44 <shachaf> This requires too many reflexes for my aging fingers.
01:17:17 <zzo38> I do not remember exactly how it works, but I could figure out. You could also try a different level that doesn't have as many reflexes.
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01:22:58 <zzo38> Perhaps try the brown one.
01:23:14 <zzo38> You should look at all of them though; what is easier for one person might be different for the other.
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01:25:29 <zzo38> There are a few places where timing helps but very minor and you don't need combinations like the others; and you can slow it down if that would help (higher numbers are slower).
01:26:45 <shachaf> But this Wind potion kills me.
01:27:05 <zzo38> Most of the others aren't so bad either.
01:27:31 <zzo38> There is another path. Did you see it?
01:27:44 <shachaf> What does Kill Enemies do?
01:27:46 <zzo38> (You can reach the other side without collecting either potion.)
01:28:10 <zzo38> Kill Enemies destroys the bears (O with two dots above), fish (alpha), dragon (section sign), and ghost (omega).
01:28:34 <zzo38> Which potion is good depends on circumstances; don't use them at the wrong time.
01:28:41 <shachaf> What does the Activate thing do?
01:29:14 <zzo38> Potions can be pushed indirectly. Bears, fish, and ghost can also be pushed indirectly, but none of them can push things by their own movement. Dragons can neither push nor be pushed.
01:29:37 <zzo38> If you step on and off the "Activate" thing, you should be able to see which object it controls.
01:31:05 <zzo38> No. However, if you have a wind potion, the random movement and the directions you push stack, potentially allowing movement twice as fast.
01:31:36 <zzo38> (This also allows moving diagonally, but not "past other objects".)
01:32:27 <shachaf> How do I pick up a potion without drinking it?
01:32:45 <zzo38> You cannot do that in this game. However, remember that you can indirectly push them to the location where you need them.
01:35:08 <zzo38> The male signs are bombs. The diamonds are gems. The small yellow circle is a single coin. The dollar signs are bags of money.
01:35:19 <zzo38> The blue area with arrows are flowing water.
01:36:13 <zzo38> If you want to quit, push escape.
01:37:06 <zzo38> You can try the other game if you want to, which is already completely made, and has many funny stuff, although is still difficult.
01:37:25 <zzo38> (If you only want to read it, you may read a file I have made with all the text in the game.)
01:39:21 <zzo38> Jokes about the Spanish Inquisition, and so on.
01:39:56 <shachaf> MenTaLguY... Do I know that name from Ruby things?
01:41:41 <shachaf> zzo38: How come you don't list Vivaldi in the Credits?
01:41:54 <zzo38> shachaf: I forgot.
01:42:09 <shachaf> zzo38: The other game is unplayable because every time I press H I get HELP
01:42:30 <shachaf> Oh, you also have other musics.
01:42:32 <zzo38> Oops, I forgot about that.
01:42:44 <zzo38> For the other musics, push space bar on title screen to select "module musics".
01:43:24 <Jafet> http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build) “Behold Pun-Pun, the mighty kobold.”
01:43:36 <zzo38> You can disable or remap the help by doing: On the title screen, push F8 to load the editor, Push G. Select "global robot". Accept the name given. Scroll down to where the help screen is defined, it says something like : "keyh" on it. Change it to "keyg" or something else.
01:44:14 <zzo38> Jafet: I have seen that.
01:47:14 <zzo38> There are two executables labeled "megazeux" and "mzxrun". You need the former, in order for the editor to work.
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02:09:49 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/0misctext/ascmzxto This is the list of all texts in this game and in the sequel, just in case anyone is interested for any reason. (They aren't given in context; these are simply all the text strings in the game, in alphabetical order.)
02:10:57 <zzo38> (BIG_MONSTER is the good guy. The bad guy is MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER.)
02:11:38 <shachaf> Can I have it in http please?
02:12:30 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/misc/ascmzxto_texts.txt
02:15:39 <zzo38> Line breaks within a text have been replaced by multiple spaces.
02:16:59 <shachaf> BIG_MONSTER: Hay! Don't do that, please! MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER: But, I have to take over the world and I have to kill that guy, please! BIG_MONSTER: I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't let you do that... MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER: Hay! How can you know my real first name?? I never tell *anyone*!! Now I have to make revenge on you, too, for that!
02:17:41 <Bike> is that real dialogue
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02:26:48 <zzo38> Do you like the other of this?
02:37:53 <zzo38> THE ONLY TELEPHONE IN ALL OF HELL! LOCAL CALLS ONLY, PLEASE.
02:38:28 <shachaf> zzo38: The joke is that the telephone can only call other telephones in Hell, but there are no others, so it's useless, right?
02:39:08 <zzo38> I suppose you can call yourself, but then the line will be busy.
02:51:03 <zzo38> Can you play Washizu Mahjong?
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02:58:49 <shachaf> Jafet: You remind me of the roaches in `olist.
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03:12:05 <Sgeo_> Windows 98 apparently can still be purchased... for $77
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03:18:34 <Sgeo_> Maybe I just want to play with Windows <insert version here> Plus!
03:21:25 <Sgeo_> I will keep searching until I see that screensaver again
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03:30:26 <HackEgo> 156) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
03:30:32 <Bike> `quote says that
03:30:34 <HackEgo> 997) <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist. <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D. <Bike> It literally says that
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03:31:17 <HackEgo> 1000) <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta.
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04:06:05 <elliott> Bike: why is russia so fucking big
04:06:36 <Bike> Because the Europeans that took it all over were never given a serious reason to stop.
04:06:58 <shachaf> I have a notes file on my cellular phone with a list of things to look up later.
04:07:02 <shachaf> One item in the list: "Syn"
04:07:03 <Bike> I mean, if you're a Russian noble, and dead people doesn't constitute a reason.
04:07:11 <Bike> the category of synners
04:07:13 <shachaf> I don't think this is about TCP.
04:08:05 <Bike> If it helps, there's, like, nothing in it.
04:08:16 <shachaf> Bike: i heard there was a big lake in it
04:08:39 <elliott> Bike: there's russia in it.
04:08:44 <Bike> the sakha republic is bigger than argentina but it has less than a million people in it.
04:09:52 <Bike> (that's not very many people considering that it is big)
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04:20:55 <Bike> so, everyone here should read "The Problem of Heads of a Fighting Force from Long Ago" at least
04:21:15 <elliott> imo the real problem of heads is that they're weird.
04:22:27 <Bike> If I've learned anything from Norse mythology it's that necks aren't part of heads.
04:22:45 <shachaf> hey Bike did you read _On Having No Head_ hth
04:23:01 <Bike> I read the excerpt in the thing. I forget if that was the whole thing or not though.
04:23:07 <shachaf> (There was an excerp in _The Mind's I_.)
04:23:18 <shachaf> It's not the whole thing. The whole thing is a book (though a short book).
04:23:30 <Bike> I haven't read that whole thing, then.
04:23:46 <shachaf> But Raymond Smullyan is good. You should read that whole thing.
04:23:55 <Bike> I didn't think it was written by Smullyan...
04:24:13 <shachaf> But Smullyan was also excerpted.
04:24:18 <zzo38> I once made a C program that includes the comment "not related to Mayan calendars". True or false?
04:24:30 <Bike> "Why should the brain be enclosed in a box composed of such numerous and such extraordinarily shaped pieces of bone, apparently representing vertebrae?" honest to god darwin quote, elliott
04:24:57 <zzo38> Darwin didn't know everything; everyone make a lot of mistakes.
04:25:09 <Bike> he actually did know the answer to that one.
04:25:13 <Bike> it's still funny in isolation.
04:25:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't make any mistakes.
04:25:25 <zzo38> (Even Darwin make mistakes, and you, and me, and shachaf.)
04:25:50 <shachaf> I guess everyone(except me) makes mistakes, though.
04:25:55 <zzo38> His mistake is that one of the letters is printed with the wrong amount of ink.
04:26:27 <Bike> Wouldn't that be the publisher's mistake
04:26:58 <zzo38> O, yes, I suppose so.
04:29:55 <shachaf> Bike: have you seen _Sweeney Todd_ (the musical)
04:30:08 <zzo38> Is there any chess someone managed to checkmate with a castling move?
04:31:47 <hubs> zzo38: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1238144
04:32:19 <Bike> I don't watch a lot of movies in general.
04:32:29 <shachaf> i wasn't talking about the movie
04:32:34 <shachaf> oh wait you don't even live in seattle
04:38:22 <zzo38> hubs: 18. Qd1# seems the other one? Is there one that isn't the other way too?
04:39:52 <zzo38> If the b-pawn is omitted then it would seem castling is the only way, but that isn't how it was actually played.
04:40:16 <zzo38> Qd1 isn't checkmate.
04:40:38 <zzo38> And the b-pawn is irrelevant; only the d-pawn and f-pawn are important.
04:41:16 <zzo38> I think I meant Qd2 or something like that
04:41:28 <zzo38> Which still isn't checkmate, of course.
04:41:39 <zzo38> Neither is Qd3, which isn't a legal move.
04:43:12 <zzo38> Could white have still win using multiple moves if the f-pawn is omitted?
04:45:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Not quite... yes it is such a comment but it is really a part of another text. Can you understands its context from only these hint?
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04:58:13 <zzo38> Does GCC have a mode to avoid warnings related to redundancy if they are made up by macros?
05:02:06 <kmc> Novartis should have the stock symbol LSD
05:12:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, check the man page, there are a lot of flags to control warnings
05:13:03 <Vorpal> Doesn't GCC 4.8 even go the clang way of telling you which flag is relevant in the warning message?
05:15:01 <Vorpal> They really improved error reporting in GCC 4.8
05:15:27 <Vorpal> Hm even GCC 4.7 tells you which flag affects each warning
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05:37:15 <HackEgo> 37) <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. \ 1010) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
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07:44:44 <shachaf> do you have any stories to tell
07:45:11 <shachaf> ok then well maybe next -- HANG ON YOU'RE NOT MNOQY
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11:16:11 <nooodl^> hi shachaf I just finished reading your megazeux adventure
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11:42:29 <fizzie> My user account data-dump from this place has the field "personstatus: Elossa", where fi:Elossa is approximately en:Alive.
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11:43:48 <Deewiant> What kind of data-dump is that?
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11:44:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: I got it from CSC as a sign-up confirmation email.
11:44:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: It also says: "Osavaltio tai provinssi: $stateOrProvince$" (I didn't fill that field, so it apparently did not replace that template item).
11:45:48 <fizzie> And my HomeOrganizationType is urn:mace:terena.org:schac:homeOrganizationType:fi:university, which is certainly relevant for an end user.
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11:51:38 <Jafet> @tell shachaf the roaches in `olist
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12:16:58 <HackEgo> 461) <itidus20> software patents strike again <ais523_> that's got to be at least three times, now <ais523_> are they out yet?
12:17:29 <HackEgo> 1021) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
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12:49:04 <HackEgo> 932) <oerjan> maybe i was violated by a pole once
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12:51:08 <Jafet> Is that like being violated by a swede?
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12:57:12 <lambdabot> Jafet said 1h 5m 34s ago: the roaches in `olist
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13:22:39 <HackEgo> 433) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
13:23:49 <Snowyowl> haikus are awesome / this one is missing something / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
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13:44:23 <Snowyowl> do people even add new quotes these days?
13:45:11 <shachaf> The quote database is sealed against tampering until the lawsuit is over.
13:45:12 <boily> sometimes. there's been a purge recently.
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13:45:21 <boily> shachaf: lawsuit? what lawsuit?
13:45:39 <shachaf> boily: That information will be made available when the lawsuit is over.
13:49:58 <fizzie> `run hg log quotes | grep date: | head -n 1
13:50:00 <HackEgo> date: Mon May 20 20:25:36 2013 +0000
13:51:04 <HackEgo> 79) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
13:51:12 <fizzie> No lawsuits, just fursuits.
13:51:34 <shachaf> It's like a spurious lawsuit, but much angrier.
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16:54:17 <boily> one page of dis-re-connects from sivoais later, the sudden outburst of furreality tapered off in the sidereal void.
16:55:11 <boily> in that golden age of angrysuits, one could have believed we achieved a permanent state of Fridayness. alas, as everything good and unreal, it came to a brutal, slow end.
16:56:23 <boily> that can of nước yến ngân nhĩ is too small. not enough white fungus.
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17:01:38 <fizzie> Not enough white fungot.
17:01:38 <fungot> fizzie: please to to on the central desk, the board of the president of the problems the accounting the globe on november is fast, fun and free...emazing greetings are the cool.
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17:57:16 <elliott> is the wiki broken or just quiet...
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18:19:39 <boily> not quiet enough, yo.
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18:26:06 <boily> @localtime quintopia
18:26:07 <lambdabot> Local time for quintopia is Tue May 21 14:26:06 2013
18:26:24 <boily> we're in the same timezone, you midfternooner.
18:27:15 <quintopia> did...did you just call me a midafternooner?
18:27:53 * boily gets the cuttlefishield
18:28:32 <boily> btw, I don't have your approximate coordinates nor body weigh.
18:29:14 <boily> (for the record, elliott still has the most inappropriate coordinates, listed in my file as: “72⅛”.)
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18:32:05 <elliott> I'm sorry that you are not truly ready for my coordinate system
18:33:58 <Bike> is hexham a coordinate
18:37:38 <kmc> maybe it's more of a contraordinate
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19:03:55 <oerjan> <Jafet> Is that like being violated by a swede? <-- no, it's a singularly complex experience hth
19:04:33 * oerjan cannot recall the original context, anyway, but suspects it was a similar pun
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19:07:51 <oerjan> <fizzie> No lawsuits, just fursuits. <-- a noble pursuit?
19:10:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Just as a jesuit.
19:10:59 <fizzie> I was trying to write "ask" instead of "as", actually.
19:11:04 <Bike> huh, ddo those rhyme for you?
19:11:56 <oerjan> <quintopia> did...did you just call me a midafternooner? <-- no he didn't. please pay attention to spelling in this channel. also, what's a fternoon?
19:12:20 <Bike> a danish delicacy
19:12:33 <oerjan> Bike: i don't think jesuit rhymes with the rest.
19:12:56 <oerjan> and pursuit has different stress, doesn't it
19:14:26 <oerjan> fternooner, smørrebrød, flæskesteg og rødgrød med fløde, the quintessentially danish four-dish meal
19:15:21 <fizzie> Bike: It's all about the graphemes.
19:16:17 <boily> oerjan: we have a strangely similar version of flæskesteg here. rôti de porc avec de la salade de choux et des patates jaunes.
19:17:33 <Bike> reminds me that i heard a song on the radio today where the singer rhymed something -ain with "again", like "main" or something, but pronounced 'again' like 'uhgen'. that was weird
19:17:46 <oerjan> <boily> (for the record, elliott still has the most inappropriate coordinates, listed in my file as: “72⅛”.) <-- i think it would be dangerous to give the coordinates more precisely than "hexham", in case taneb reads them
19:18:08 <oerjan> boily: i'm sure "choux" means something truly frenchly disgusting
19:19:02 <kmc> that's a lot of øs
19:19:24 <oerjan> oh it means coleslaw. so disgusting but not frenchly.
19:19:48 <oerjan> kmc: one of them is a danish tongue-twister hth
19:19:53 <boily> oerjan: what have you got against delicious, creamy, sloshy mayonnaisy coleslaw?
19:20:41 <kmc> mayonnaiseaux
19:20:51 <oerjan> who mixes mayonnaise and cabbage, sheesh
19:22:18 <oerjan> as every norwegian knows, cabbage should be mixed with mutton and whole black peppers.
19:22:32 <oerjan> the potatoes are fine, though.
19:23:00 <boily> oerjan: cabbage is one of the main ingredients of the traditional Canadian dish, the Chinese eggroll.
19:23:03 <nooodl> this reminds me: IPA for danish is very great
19:23:31 <oerjan> boily: is that similar to the traditional english dish, the chicken tikka masala?
19:23:47 <fizzie> IPO for Danish: going to be great?
19:23:52 <nooodl> [ˈb̥loð̪ˀð̪̩ ˈlɔːˀ i n̩ ˈsd̥oɐ̯ˀ ˈb̥roːˀn ˈpʰøːˀl d̥ɑ ˈsm̥ɛld̥əð̪̩ sɑ ˈneð̪ˀ i ˈsneːˀn̩, d̥ɛm ˈb̥lɑɪ̯ˌʁœːð̪̩ ˈfʁɔːð̪̩ fʁœs ˈsnɑːˀd̥ tˢe ˈiːˀs.]
19:24:00 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
19:24:07 <kmc> fish and chips tikka masala
19:24:45 <Bike> p.s. what's your (general you) favorite orthography
19:24:48 * kmc is always confused by the fact that chicken masala is an indian dish but chicken marsala is an italian dish
19:25:23 <oerjan> oh hm there's also a claim it may be from glasgow, sorry scots
19:25:24 <Bike> my favorite is still Sḵwx̱wú7mesh
19:26:10 <oerjan> "In July 2009 Pakistani-born British MP Mohammad Sarwar tabled an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons asking that Parliament support a campaign for Glasgow to be given European Union Protected Designation of Origin status for chicken tikka masala."
19:26:34 <nooodl> i like how greek looks, i guess
19:26:48 <nooodl> it's hard to pick a favorite!
19:28:32 <Bike> if it's looks my favorite is actually mongolian
19:28:38 <Bike> i just like a 7 being used
19:30:56 <oerjan> nooodl: "the blood lay in a big puddle which then melted into the snow, the blood-red froth soon froze to ice" ?
19:32:01 <oerjan> i'm really uncertain about the blood-red froth
19:32:03 <nooodl> "big brown puddle" but yeah
19:32:09 <nooodl> "pink foam" says wikipedia
19:32:10 <nooodl> The blood lay in a big brown puddle that melted down in the snow, the pink foam soon froze to ice.
19:32:32 <nooodl> Blodet lå i en stor brun pøl, der smeltede sig ned i sneen, den blegrøde fråde frøs snart til is.
19:32:53 <oerjan> oh "bleg" (means pale)
19:34:00 <kmc> mongolian, georgian, elian script
19:34:39 <Bike> "a non-linear writing system synthesizing elements of both Eastern and Western systems; one that fosters bi-hemispheric coordination" er
19:34:47 <kmc> also what's the difference between an alphabet, an abugida, and an abjad
19:35:25 <Bike> one always involves vowels, one sometimes does, and one never does? i think?
19:36:43 <oerjan> abjads leave out a lot of the vowel information, but not all of it
19:37:51 <oerjan> and if abugida is the indian system, every consonant can be marked with whether it is followed by a vowel, and the default with no mark is "a" not null
19:38:35 <oerjan> i think many of the indian scripts work that way?
19:40:15 <Bike> i think it's mostly "just" that one, but it's really common and all
19:43:11 <oerjan> no it seems to be many of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida#Indic_.28Brahmic.29
19:43:54 <oerjan> and also there are non-indic abugidas
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20:56:38 <boily> “The hairy ball theorem of algebraic topology states that there is no nonvanishing continuous tangent vector field on even dimensional n-spheres.”
20:56:52 <Bike> indeed it does
20:57:00 <boily> ~duck nonvanishing continuous tangent vector field
20:57:42 <kmc> vector field: a function mapping every point on the sphere to a vector
20:57:45 <Bike> OK, well, do you know what a tangent vector field is?
20:57:50 <Bike> It's uh. kmc just said it
20:57:54 <kmc> what makes it tangent though
20:57:59 <Bike> It's tangent to the sphere.
20:58:11 <kmc> and 'nonvanishing' means that there's no point where the vector has magnitude zero
20:58:21 <Bike> all the elements of the vector space, that is, the vectors, are tangent to the sphere.
20:58:36 <kmc> oh meaning they don't intersect it again?
20:59:10 <Bike> yeah, intuitively they're vectors "on" the sphere, like how "ten miles north and six miles west" is tangent to the earth but "eleven feet straight down" is just dumb
20:59:32 <kmc> "A hairy doughnut, on the other hand, is quite easily combable."
20:59:44 <Bike> Yeah the hairy ball theoerem is quite notable for being silly as hell
21:00:43 <Bike> One way of saying it, which is misleading but oh well, is that if at every point on the earth wind was moving in only one (tangent) direction, and there are no spooky discontinuities, nowhere on earth would have no wind.
21:00:45 <myname> i find it kind of hilarious that from all channels i'm in, this is the most scientific and serious
21:00:52 <boily> time to go bike, think about that, then hit a car.
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21:01:17 <Bike> i do not appreciate being used as a tool of violence!
21:01:18 <kmc> myname: what are the others
21:01:51 <myname> kmc: the most are programming and linux related
21:02:03 <Bike> uh oh you're "playing right into his twitter conversation"
21:02:13 <myname> and it's about food and trains and bikes 90& of the time
21:02:37 <kmc> i like trains
21:03:51 <Bike> I wonder what life on a 4-sphere would be like. windy i guess
21:04:37 <kmc> caltrain is worst train
21:05:52 <kmc> well maybe it's not worse than the trains in cambodia that are made of bamboo and when two trains want to pass each other the passengers get off and disassemble one and carry it past the other
21:05:57 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norry
21:06:49 <kmc> "In the 1980s and 1990s due to the civil war in Cambodia trains were led by an armed and armoured carriage; the first carriages of the train were flatbeds used as mine sweepers and travel on these was free for the first carriage and half-price for the second."
21:16:12 <shachaf> kmc: did you hear my new word
21:16:23 <kmc> what is it
21:16:54 <kmc> what is it
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21:28:35 <kmc> in what language is antícheir is thumb
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21:42:48 <shachaf> kmc: What is the difference between c_c and c.c?
21:43:25 <kmc> i don't know
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21:44:44 <shachaf> Perhaps I will never understand that smiley.
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21:48:38 <Bike> http://thejh.net/misc/website-terminal-copy-paste this is cute
21:50:17 <elliott> didn't fool me because i triple-clicked to select it
21:51:07 <elliott> also mosh should totally use that bracketed paste mode thing to generalise irssi's paste warning.
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21:51:38 <kmc> yeah I think somebody opened a pull request with it just now
21:52:23 <Bike_> the joke is my internet connection
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21:52:54 <elliott> oh it looks like just a feature request and not a pull request
21:53:36 <elliott> anyway it looks like it's not the kind of "support" i want
21:53:48 <elliott> which would have mosh interpret it from urxvt and then offer its own UI to respond to the paste
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22:22:12 <nooodl> Don'"'"'t copy code from websites you don'"'"'t trust!
22:25:53 <nooodl^> maybe this kind of exploit could still work with triple clicking if you added an invisible space in your command that somehow does something nasty
22:26:02 <FreeFull> Obviously the solution is to not use bash, and to call any program by populating a list of arguments
22:26:06 <ion> You don’t need to do that in such a contrived way in sh.
22:27:36 <kmc> \\\\\\\' magic quotes \\\\\\\'
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22:28:20 <nooodl^> like, rm -rf / bloop/things/bin/.../stuff
22:28:57 <nooodl^> you'd have to be pretty awful to fall for that though
22:29:15 <Bike> that's true of most exploits. and guess what, they work
22:30:11 <nooodl^> istr a github commit fixing "the worst bug" I.e. that
22:30:47 <Bike> yeah i remember that. good bug
22:30:57 <nooodl^> it was some kinda thing that would delete /usr if you unijstalled it?
22:31:14 <Bike> "if only computer programs were as resistant to frameshift mutations as some other codes i could name" or something
22:31:24 <nooodl^> imo Bike should find it for me
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22:31:35 <Bike> why would you need to find it, we both know what it is
22:32:03 <elliott> for the hilarious github meme image comments
22:32:09 <ion> Reverse Bobby Tables: name her La''tanya, so it’ll work even when systems are vulnerable to SQL injection.
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22:32:19 <nooodl^> but think about the Community of #esoteric!!
22:32:34 <Bike> the Community-watching community
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22:32:49 <nooodl^> also yes what elliott said
22:32:51 <Bike> also wow now that you mention it places that use ' in orthography often must have it rough
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22:34:46 <nooodl^> BTW I am responding to all of this shit like an hour late because I'm on a phone....
22:35:13 <Koen_> I'm on a phone too
22:35:21 <nooodl^> which is also capitalizing "i" for me wow bad
22:35:32 <Koen_> but I'm not sure it's gonna hold for long I gained some weight lately
22:37:42 <ion> nooodl: rm -rf / foo/bar would complain about preserve-root in my copy of rm. (It’s not intended to work around stupidity, though, it’s intended for a snafu with scripts calling rm, e.g. a mistyped variable expansion without set -u that results in the parameter being /)
22:38:17 <ion> s/stupidity/user stupidity/, the latter could be called sh stupidity. :-P
22:38:55 <Bike> shtupidity, imo
22:39:23 <nooodl^> I knew someone would mention that
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23:34:48 <Sgeo_> Thought of another use for a Raspberry Pi, but I could do exactly the same thing with a server or just EC2 I think
23:34:54 <Sgeo_> (server in the cloud I mean)
23:35:48 <kmc> i mean, what is it?
23:36:02 <Sgeo_> Run a bunch of MIDIs through timidity and put on YouTue
23:37:48 <Lumpio-> And get all them taken down for copyright infringement
23:38:41 <Sgeo_> I plan on asking... someone, what the copyright status of these MIDIs are
23:39:22 <Sgeo_> Could also do the same with stuff on modarchive.org, being sure to only take the ones with appropriate licenses
23:39:31 <Sgeo_> But fewer of those would have nostalgic value for me
23:39:59 <Sgeo_> Well, not 'the same', a mod should always sound the same no matter the soundfont
23:40:21 <Sgeo_> Erm, well, not 'no matter the soundfont', there is no soundfont, except... built-in I guess?
23:43:59 <Sgeo_> But for the getting data off my old HD thing, probably should get a Raspberry Pi for that
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00:24:18 <Sgeo_> 750 hours of free computing time a month?
00:24:30 <Sgeo_> I guess I'm not particularly likely to exceed that for projects like that
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00:26:24 <kmc> 750 hours is a whole month
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00:27:20 <Sgeo_> "AWS Free Tier includes 750 hours of Linux or Windows Micro Instances each month for one year. To stay within the Free Tier, use only EC2 Micro instances."
00:27:40 <kmc> that's what I'm using for IRC
00:27:56 <Sgeo_> What are you going to do when the year is up?
00:28:09 <kmc> price shopping from a few VPS providers
00:28:23 <kmc> pretty sure EC2 doesn't have the best price, although micro instances are cheap
00:28:29 <kmc> and i could buy it as a "reserved instance"
00:28:44 <kmc> you pay up-front to have a lower hourly rate for a year or 3 years
00:29:21 <kmc> i sort of think EC2 pricing is deliberately complex so that people will over-pay
00:30:42 <kmc> i wonder how much EC2 prices will drop once the startup bubble bursts
00:31:37 <Sgeo_> Is spot pricing relatively cheap?
00:31:53 <Sgeo_> For the file processing, it's not like I need continu... oh, hmm, I do, derp
00:32:03 <Sgeo_> I don't think timidity would like to be interrupted
00:32:05 <kmc> it can be a lot cheaper, yeah
00:32:14 <kmc> well each individual conversion task is pretty short right
00:32:37 <kmc> so you just need to code it in such a way that a file isn't marked as converted until it's really done
00:32:58 <Sgeo_> It would be nice if the 'interruptions' were more like storing a memory snapshot and then restoring
00:34:46 <elliott> kmc: you can irc from my server so i can get all your passwords
00:36:37 <elliott> todo figure out something exciting to do with kmc's irc passwords
00:36:51 <Bike> have him rejoin #haskell as a celebrity
00:37:21 <Bike> and then uh say that he's moved on to a better language like C++caml or w/e
00:37:34 <kmc> maybe i will be writing Rust at my day job soon
00:37:42 <elliott> i would spend less time yelling at people in #haskell if kmc was there to also yell
00:38:09 <Sgeo_> for f in *; do gunzip $f; done
00:38:17 <Sgeo_> for f in *.gz; do gunzip $f; done
00:38:28 <Sgeo_> Is this a reasonable thing to do if I think some of them are invalid?
00:39:39 <kmc> sounds good
00:40:25 <Jafet> for f in *.gz; do if ! gz -t "$f"; then mv "$f" bad; else gunzip "$f"; fi; done
00:40:53 <Sgeo_> There were only two that were bad
00:40:58 <Sgeo_> And I don't know what ! means
00:41:30 <Bike> -t Test. Check the compressed file integrity.
00:41:57 <Sgeo_> Timidity was last updated 2004?!?
00:42:02 <Sgeo_> Maybe there's better software now?
00:44:04 <Jafet> Maybe they couldn't bear to work any longer with cvs
00:45:11 <Sgeo_> Oh, I think the webpage I found is old
00:46:05 <kmc> ! means 'not'
00:47:04 <Sgeo_> "Does ! mean not?" "!false"
00:47:34 <kmc> well !false in Bash would be something different from ! false
00:47:52 <Jafet> * TiMidity++-2.13.2 2004-10-03
00:47:55 <Jafet> * TiMidity++-2.14.0 2012-06-29
00:48:17 <Jafet> Great release schedule
00:48:23 <kmc> if it ain't broke
00:48:31 <kmc> (but it's software so it probably is broke)
00:48:39 <Sgeo_> Clearly it was broke if they needed to release a 2.14
00:48:43 <shachaf> if it ain't broke don't pay it?
00:48:46 <Jafet> It probably isn't fully working to begin with
00:48:54 <Bike> kmc as a civil engineer would be fun. "this bridge is so patched together"
00:49:16 <Jafet> We got this bridge for free, so it's ok
00:49:35 <Sgeo_> Somehow I doubt Gregor would encourage me to choose fluidsynth over timidity
00:49:47 <Jafet> Also only depraved electronic musicians use that bridge
00:49:52 <kmc> i would hire web startup ninjas to design a bridge
00:49:56 <kmc> because they are experts at all things
00:50:07 <shachaf> Jafet: what was that about roaches in @tell
00:50:46 <Jafet> <shachaf> Jafet: You remind me of the roaches in `olist.
00:50:52 <Gregor> I would encourage anyone and everyone to choose fluidsynth over timidity.
00:51:04 <Gregor> timidity is the most buggy piece of software on Earth, but it is far, far superior to timidity.
00:51:07 <shachaf> oerjan: What do you think?
00:51:10 <Gregor> fluidsynth is the most buggy piece of software on Earth, but it is far, far superior to timidity.
00:51:27 <Gregor> All the stability in the world won't stop timidity from being crap.
00:51:37 <Sgeo_> o.O how is timidity crap?
00:51:49 <Gregor> There's just no way to make them sound good.
00:51:56 <pikhq> Gravis UltraSound.
00:51:57 <Gregor> A form of patchset that's older than both of us.
00:52:05 <Gregor> (OK, not actually older than both of us ;) )
00:52:11 <pikhq> It was popular in 1992.
00:52:26 <Sgeo_> What sort of thing is Unison.sf2 in?
00:52:33 <Sgeo_> I'm kind of used to it
00:52:35 <pikhq> A *1992* wavetable based synth? Maaan.
00:52:35 <Gregor> That's for fluidsynth.
00:52:46 <Sgeo_> I could have sworn I made timidity use Unison
00:53:05 <Gregor> I think that timidity can do a sort of internal conversion, but it's just that.
00:53:13 <Gregor> It doesn't actually take advantage of any of SF's better featuresa.
00:53:14 <pikhq> This was a time when not having a CD-ROM interface meant it sucked. :P
00:53:21 -!- alejandro has joined.
00:53:39 -!- alejandro has left.
00:53:55 <Sgeo_> Wish I could install software on here
00:53:58 <Sgeo_> I think I broke apt
00:54:09 <Gregor> fluidsynth may have two bugs for every feature, but it is a /fundamentally/ superior technology.
00:54:12 <Sgeo_> Installing anything makes it want to install a new libc
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00:54:29 <Bike> you can never have enough libcs
00:55:03 <Sgeo_> Gregor, ok, so, is there something to do conversion from .mid to normal sound using a soundfont with software better than fluidsynth>
00:55:32 <Gregor> Err, it can be done with fluidsynth X-D
00:55:54 <Sgeo_> Does Unison make use of those features that Timidity can't handle?
00:56:01 <Sgeo_> Gregor, but if it's buggy...
00:56:22 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Don't worry about fluidsynth's bugs until you run into them *shrugs*
00:57:00 <pikhq> I assume "buggy" means "it's liable to crash" and such.
00:57:04 <Gregor> They're mostly really stupid things, like failing to change instruments if the MIDI messages aren't in the "right" order or randomly deciding to or not to reset things between tracks or just crashing.
00:57:10 <Bike> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/reporters-use-google-find-breach-get-branded-as-hackers/ are you a wget hacker
00:57:20 <Gregor> Everything that isn't a crash is obvious.
00:57:31 <Gregor> I use fluidsynth for codu.org/webmidi , btw.
00:57:32 <Sgeo_> Gregor, so I may end up with 'wrong' music?
00:57:52 <Gregor> No, just potentially the wrong instruments or a crash.
00:58:20 <Sgeo_> how is wrong instruments not wrong music?
00:58:33 <Sgeo_> Hmm, you like SONiVOX?
00:58:50 <Gregor> As SF2 libraries gos, SONiVOX makes amongst the best.
00:59:04 <Gregor> (i.e., they're the only sort of professional sound designers willing to lower themselves to SF2)
00:59:17 <Sgeo_> So, probably better than Unison then
00:59:23 <Sgeo_> But I guess I'd have to buy the soundfont?
00:59:39 <Sgeo_> .........it's a hundred dollars
00:59:44 <pikhq> So. MIDI, it sucks.
00:59:47 <Gregor> Yeah. It's not cheap, and not worth it if you don't have real need for it :)
01:00:16 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/19904281061092/19904281061092.ogg
01:01:21 <Jafet> Bike: if a website shows your personal information on ?id=100 and you change that to ?id=101 that's illegal hth
01:01:32 <Bike> hey i've done that before
01:01:44 <Jafet> You CRIMINAL HACKER
01:01:44 <Bike> i'm an official cyber criminal (michael jackson plays)
01:01:54 <Jafet> Cracker: criminal hacker
01:02:13 <Gregor> Cracker: white criminal hacker
01:02:15 <Bike> `quote cracker
01:03:25 <HackEgo> 179) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi \ 224) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck \ 242) <oklopol> okay see in m
01:03:29 <shachaf> i demand that Gregor be -v
01:03:54 <Sgeo_> Gregor, is Chorium good?
01:04:03 <Gregor> Chorium is as good as free gets.
01:04:19 <shachaf> Gregor: How's the accordion hunt going?
01:04:32 <Gregor> shachaf: I have two but neither are exactly great *sigh*
01:04:45 <shachaf> I mean the chromatic button accordion hunt.
01:04:46 <Sgeo_> Gregor, so, you'd recommend it over Unison?
01:05:06 <Sgeo_> I don't know where I got this idea that Unison is awesome?
01:05:45 <Sgeo_> I can't just use your web service to render all my MIDIs, can I? >:D
01:06:39 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/202062800218550/202062800218550.ogg is it just me or does the Chorium version sound significantly different?
01:06:52 <Gregor> Of course it sounds significantly different.
01:06:55 <Gregor> Oh god those strings X_X
01:07:00 <Gregor> Strings are always the worst.
01:07:10 <Bike> do we have good string synth yet i forgot
01:07:36 <Sgeo_> But I don't think Sonivox even did the strings, it sounded like a different instrument?
01:07:40 <Sgeo_> Or am I imagining things
01:07:46 <shachaf> Gregor: How many buttons in a chromatic button accordion?
01:07:59 <Gregor> shachaf: Considerably more I'd say.
01:08:05 <Gregor> shachaf: 120 in the bass, not sure about the trouble.
01:08:41 <Sgeo_> Gregor, sonivox sounds better but I want free
01:08:53 <Sgeo_> I can't just go try Unison on your web service magically, can I?
01:09:04 <Gregor> No, but if you can send me a link to it, I can add it.
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01:09:27 <Sgeo_> http://www.personalcopy.com/linuxfiles.htm
01:11:39 <Sgeo_> I never tried personalcopy
01:13:22 <Sgeo_> "Peter Jevnisek's wonderful new GM/GS soundbank is now here for download and is one of the most popular on this site. This is the one that's been talked about in the newsgroups, previewed with some mp3 samples, and has everyone waiting with baited breath! A wonderfully musical and clean sound; if you're using the SBLive! you must download this soundfont."
01:14:44 * Sgeo_ wants to know what Gregor thinks about Unison
01:17:05 <Gregor> It's still downloading.
01:18:43 <Sgeo_> On Windows I used to use some... thing by Yamaha
01:22:32 <Gregor> There, maybe I installed Unison.
01:24:31 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/214051887116122/214051887116122.ogg
01:25:00 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20734427124682/20734427124682.ogg it's nicer than Chorium I think
01:25:20 <Sgeo_> Well, at least at first
01:25:35 <Sgeo_> ...just heard an iffy part
01:25:46 <Gregor> I think you've just happened upon instruments that it does... "better".
01:26:08 <Gregor> 'cause Chorium's strings suck horribly. So do Unison's, but not quite as bad :)
01:26:14 <Gregor> elliott: ALL THE THINGS
01:26:19 <elliott> my speakers aren't even on!!!
01:26:28 <Sgeo_> I have another song to upload, although it might not be as legal
01:26:45 <Sgeo_> I like the way Unison treats the beginning though
01:27:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i'm coming to grips with the Grand Unified Theory Of Why Moffat Who Is Shit
01:27:49 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to {-_-}.
01:28:09 <Sgeo_> Oh Lamour in Unison: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20891761211620/20891761211620.ogg
01:28:36 <Sgeo_> Where's the sparkly effect I like? :(
01:28:42 -!- {-_-} has changed nick to eliot.
01:30:05 -!- dessos has left.
01:30:45 <Sgeo_> Might be wrong song :( or maybe it was on that Yamaha thing
01:31:00 -!- eliot has changed nick to copumpkin.
01:32:00 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined.
01:32:23 <Sgeo_> Oh Lamour in Sonivox: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20991111911878/20991111911878.ogg
01:32:43 <Sgeo_> Are there cheaper Sonivox soundfonts?
01:36:23 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/211401281913892/211401281913892.ogg Oh Lamour in Chorium
01:36:36 <Sgeo_> Definitely sounds more artificial than SONiVOX sounds
01:36:38 <Gregor> Plenty, but as per a full general MIDI soundfont, the only options are their 250MB $100 one or their 24MB $70 one.
01:37:38 <elliott> that is some non-linear pricing
01:37:42 <Sgeo_> "not worth it if you don't have real need for it :)"
01:37:49 <Sgeo_> So, what soundfonts would be worth it?
01:38:03 <Sgeo_> I want to hear the huge MIDI collection I have sound beautiful
01:38:50 <Gregor> If you're not willing to pay anything, Chorium. Otherwise, SONiVOX. There is nothing in between.
01:39:26 <Sgeo_> Chorium screwed up wrlds1 so badly
01:39:49 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
01:39:58 <Sgeo_> Well, not that badly I guess
01:45:01 <Sgeo_> Listen to the .ogg I'm going to link soon
01:45:15 <Sgeo_> A file I called "ZeldaMario.mid" rendered with sonivox
01:45:20 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/214081523917090/214081523917090.ogg
01:45:36 <Sgeo_> Hmm... it sounds... off
01:47:43 <kmc> what should i do
01:47:45 <elliott> helliott sounds pretty metal
01:47:49 <Sgeo_> Gregor, why does that song sound off?
01:48:46 <kmc> maybe i should drink alcohol
01:48:50 <elliott> kmc: join my metal band compromised entirely of people whose names start with "ell" and who are greeted look around you-style on a regular basis
01:48:55 <elliott> n.b. you might have to change your name
01:49:02 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/215343205724631/215343205724631.ogg
01:49:23 <Sgeo_> The strings seem to be crowding out the melody
01:51:19 <kmc> hm when I preview a text attachment in GMail, Google prefixes exactly 256 bytes of whitespace
01:51:24 <kmc> i wonder what the hilarious reason is
01:51:38 <Sgeo_> preventing content-sniffing as HTML in shitty browsers?
01:52:14 <Gregor> Sgeo_: It's assuming that these instruments will have an instantaneous attack, which makes no sense physically.
01:52:39 <kmc> the browser will sniff even if the server sends content-type: text/plain ?
01:52:44 <kmc> and it only looks at 256 bytes?
01:52:55 <Sgeo_> kmc, IE ... oh, I think Safari does too sometimes
01:53:45 <Sgeo_> Gregor, what, the MIDI file is?
01:54:41 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, it actually scans the first 256 bytes pretty much regardless.
01:54:58 <pikhq> Its algorithm for doing so uses the server-sent MIME type *as a parameter in its heuristics*.
01:55:09 <Sgeo_> pikhq, which browser??
01:55:11 <kmc> fuck postel's law
01:55:23 <Sgeo_> I think IE has a header to disable sniffing
01:55:53 <Sgeo_> X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff
01:55:55 <pikhq> To be fair-ish, MIME type detection is at least a feature web browsers need to have.
01:56:03 <pikhq> An HTTP server doesn't *have* to send a MIME type.
01:56:07 <pikhq> Or indeed any headers.
01:56:36 <Sgeo_> Are there still HTTP/0.9 servers online?
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01:58:22 <Sgeo_> Gregor, I guess a lot of these MIDIs were made for older soundfonts?
01:58:39 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/218232634319680/218232634319680.ogg LogC in SONiVOX
01:59:11 <Gregor> In a manner of speaking. Ideally MIDIs are made for a particular suite of virtual instruments, but in practice they tend to be made to sound good on Windows software synth ;)
01:59:13 <madbr> sgeo: or fm synth cards?
01:59:32 <kmc> some midis are made to play on actual pianos and such ;)
02:00:08 <madbr> it's hard to make midi sound not cheesey because usually the sample set gets way overused since it's the same for every song
02:00:11 <Sgeo_> Most of these MIDIs are probably a decade old
02:00:18 <kmc> what's the comic sans of soundfonts
02:00:40 <madbr> not to mention that you can't mix midi because every soundfont/synth is different
02:00:59 <madbr> kmc: most common atm is gm.dls
02:01:26 <madbr> but the soundfont on old sb awe32/awe64 cards was really cheesey too
02:02:20 <madbr> it had some ok samples but the snare was really really cheesey
02:02:27 <madbr> and snare drum is used on everything
02:04:20 <madbr> plus everything was drowned in chorus and reverb anyways
02:04:24 <kmc> ok i did 50 jumping jacks
02:04:26 <Sgeo_> Ok, Glee1a isn't even playing on my computer
02:04:26 <kmc> still/again bored
02:05:00 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Tue May 21 22:04:59 2013
02:05:03 <madbr> <- not really a fan of midi :3
02:05:32 <Sgeo_> <- really a fan of midi :3
02:06:11 <madbr> I'm a diehard fan of impulse tracker tbh
02:06:16 <Sgeo_> The beginning sounds weird http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/220073105321700
02:06:17 <kmc> what has 2 thumbs and is a big fan of midi
02:07:13 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/220073105321700/log.txt
02:07:18 <Sgeo_> Warnings about invalid generators
02:07:23 <Sgeo_> I don't know what generators are
02:08:16 <madbr> heh it's like it's playing some real fast line and the ice rain patch can't follow
02:08:23 <madbr> probably sounds ok on FM synths tho
02:19:21 <Sgeo_> Putting in song from a movie... now
02:19:26 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/224151221912487/224151221912487.ogg
02:19:42 <Sgeo_> But that movie is not where I nostalgize it from
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02:22:03 <madbr> this has zimmerness
02:22:45 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/225562643528383/225562643528383.ogg
02:23:10 <Sgeo_> :( was fully expecting the 'quality' of the sound font to be a detriment to this song, and it is
02:23:35 <Sgeo_> There's supposed to be a rougher feel
02:23:42 <Sgeo_> Or at least, I've always heard it with a very rough feel
02:26:01 <Sgeo_> And now for a deliberately sickingly cute song:
02:26:15 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/226811563322357/226811563322357.ogg
02:26:38 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
02:28:44 <Sgeo_> sickeningly (thanks to spell-checker)
02:31:16 <Bike> kmc: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13691253090A82340100&page=1#20 plz to comment on: Security Theater
02:36:28 <Bike> if you mean tvtropes then fucking don't please
02:39:21 <Jafet> You're going to register at a website because it leaks login details in cleartext
02:39:53 <Sgeo_> Turned out I was already registered
02:40:21 <kmc> uh i don't want to read all of this
02:40:32 <kmc> but yes a lot of people are confused about what password hashing is good for
02:40:33 <Sgeo_> kmc, just read the (now second-to-last) post
02:40:44 <Bike> Basically the system checks if you're logged in by having your username and password in cookies.
02:40:54 <Bike> Encrypting anything is just security theater.
02:40:55 <copumpkin> I rot13 my password 1000000 times to make it harder to brute force
02:41:04 <kmc> also people should stop saying "encrypt" when they mean "hash"
02:41:10 <kmc> copbkdf2kin
02:41:20 <Bike> i don't know anything, it's true.
02:41:46 <kmc> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028000.do?sortby=publicationDate wow
02:42:26 <Bike> yet few resources are dedicated to this data type.
02:42:31 <Jafet> They should call it "C: the fun parts"
02:42:31 <kmc> good morning mr. magpie
02:43:23 <Sgeo_> Just verified username + pass being sent plaintext over http
02:43:31 <Bike> "Apply concepts to real-world problems: model the behavior of boats, airplanes, cars, and sports balls" i didn't know people called them "sports balls"
02:43:44 -!- nooodl^ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:44:13 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTV0cBGbaM
02:45:40 <elliott> <kmc> also people should stop saying "encrypt" when they mean "hash"
02:45:49 <elliott> really when someone says the kind of things said there there's a good chance it's actual encryption
02:46:07 <Sgeo_> I didn't even mention the 'it should be hashed' thing in my post
02:46:11 <Sgeo_> One step at a time
02:46:25 <Bike> you're fighting an uphill battle. for no reason
02:46:31 <Jafet> Dance ball modelling
02:46:44 <Sgeo_> I was kind of hoping someone could verify that my understanding is correct
02:47:19 <shachaf> since when do people say "encrypt" when they're talking about drugz (kmc drugz joke)
02:47:36 <Jafet> They want to be "cryptic"
02:48:09 <elliott> Q: how was the cryptographer buried? A: they were encrypted
02:48:38 <shachaf> kmc: you should grade cannabis quality as sha-1 sha-256 etc.
02:49:12 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should explain how sending it encrypted is safe
02:49:33 <Sgeo_> (If Fast Eddie posts and says that sending over https is equiv. to http, I'll do that)
02:49:35 <kmc> shachaf: haha yes I will do that
02:50:04 <Jafet> "This batch is really RIPEMD"
02:50:11 <kmc> you can buy a /lot/ of different strains of weed in SF
02:55:50 <Bike> What's different between strains?
02:58:07 <kmc> shachaf: not directly
02:58:35 <kmc> Bike: different mixture of cannabinoids, producing a different effect, supposedly
02:58:45 <Bike> only supposedly?
02:59:00 <shachaf> Maybe only supposedly, maybe supposedly and also actually.
02:59:17 <kmc> what shachaf said
02:59:36 * shachaf is clearly an expert on this topic.
02:59:52 <kmc> lots of people talk about a difference between Cannabis sativa and Cannabis indica, at least
03:02:25 <kmc> 'A study published in the South African Journal of Science showed that "pipes dug up from the garden of Shakespeare's home in Stratford upon Avon contain traces of cannabis." The chemical analysis was carried out after researchers hypothesized that the "noted weed" mentioned in Sonnet 76 and the "journey in my head" from Sonnet 27 could be references to cannabis and the use thereof.'
03:02:40 <elliott> noted weed is a good name for it
03:03:04 <kmc> shakespeare gotta get blazed son
03:04:04 <Bike> Why write I still all one, ever the same, // And keep invention in a noted weed, // That every word doth almost tell my name, // Showing their birth, and where did they proceed?
03:04:07 <Bike> the weed experience.
03:04:43 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:05:06 <elliott> A Noted Weed: the Keegan McAllister Story
03:05:40 <Bike> «This interpretation is based on an assumption about the colloquialism "weed". It was not used in reference to the drug marajuana in the USA until the 1920s,» sux
03:05:42 <shachaf> kmc should get a drugz named after him
03:05:52 <elliott> Bike: shut. shut up. stop ruining it
03:06:09 <Bike> Well, I mean. He probably did actually smoke weed.
03:07:57 <kmc> so did shakespeare smoke pot or not
03:08:02 <kmc> i demand a yes/no answer
03:08:24 <Bike> come on man you know the history of drugz better than anyone
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03:08:43 <shachaf> did shakespeare use lsd or not
03:09:35 <Bike> shakespeare was a noted biochemist in his day
03:09:39 <elliott> we're going to make some absolute zingers when kmc gets the death penalty for smuggling drugs
03:09:57 <elliott> using #esoteric logs as evidence
03:10:23 <elliott> pretty sure this is what inevitably happens to anyone who slides down the slippery slope that is gateway drugs (the gateway is to hell)
03:11:16 <shachaf> elliott: is that the hardest drugz of all
03:11:34 <Bike> *turkmenistani photograph*
03:11:58 <elliott> i don't even know if that's a thing you get death penalty for in the america's
03:12:04 <shachaf> copyright infringement hth
03:13:35 <kmc> smug druggling
03:17:02 <kmc> also, just POSTing username / password over HTTPS is not enough
03:17:15 <kmc> you pretty much need to serve the whole site over HTTPS to have good security
03:17:37 <shachaf> But POSTing the password over https is better than nothing.
03:17:41 <Bike> alright i'm going to comment on this again even though i decided it would be a bad idea to:
03:17:49 <kmc> an active attacker could tamper with the real login form, or serve a fake login form to an already-logged-in user
03:17:51 <copumpkin> not if someone serves up a page that doesn't post the password over https
03:17:59 <pikhq> Yeah, but if you use HTTPS at all you should use HTTPS entirely.
03:18:06 <Bike> last time something this stupid came up, he said password security didn't matter because it was just for edits and avoiding spammers
03:18:17 <pikhq> Otherwise it provides only *miniscule* benefits.
03:18:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: I've explicitly added https: to the URL before logging in in the past.
03:18:36 <kmc> shachaf: it is better than nothing, but it's also a handy excuse for not doing more, I guess
03:18:40 <pikhq> (namely, an attacker would have to spend fractional amount of time to do it)
03:18:42 <Bike> and when i say "something this stupid" i mean "the same thing" since it's been like this since i quit, which was in ancient times.
03:18:56 <kmc> i'm not sure really, it's a tricky organizational question and not a technical one
03:19:09 <kmc> whether these half measures are better than nothing
03:19:11 <elliott> kmc: our esolang wiki has a totally insecure login :'(
03:19:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: Besides, someone could do that anyway, if you ever make a non-https request.
03:19:34 <kmc> The moral of the story is, I chose a half measure, when I should have gone all the way. I'll never make that mistake again. No more half measures.
03:19:55 <copumpkin> shachaf: that's why kmc says the entire site should be
03:19:58 <copumpkin> and you should keep an eye on that
03:20:21 <pikhq> Y'know, the whole "scream bloody murder on self-signed HTTPS certs" thing bothers me.
03:20:27 <elliott> maybe i should make the wiki https-y
03:20:31 <shachaf> Sure, but a user can still type in an http: URL.
03:20:42 <shachaf> Anyway I agree with y'all that it's the right thing to do.
03:20:52 <Bike> elliott: have you considered switching to a more ssecure platform, like pmwiki
03:21:06 <elliott> Bike: what's the joke here
03:21:07 <kmc> pikhq: why
03:21:23 <pikhq> HTTP < self-signed HTTPS < properly signed HTTPS, but browsers treat it as self-signed HTTPS < HTTP < properly signed HTTPS.
03:21:53 <kmc> well the self-signed cert could be a sign that Someone Is Doing Something Nasty
03:22:08 <pikhq> Yes, but then it could just be going down to HTTP.
03:22:35 <pikhq> It'd be one thing if they warned when a site suddenly *changed* to self-signed.
03:23:06 <kmc> i think there was a time when browsers had a padlock icon for https but didn't have a similar indication of whether the cert is good or not
03:23:19 <pikhq> And I don't think they should do that "Oh, it's signed, you can trust this site" green lock thing...
03:23:31 <kmc> these days though at least Chrome puts a red slash through 'https' if the cert is untrusted
03:23:49 <pikhq> i.e. self-signed HTTPS should look pretty much like straight HTTP to an end-user if it's untrusted.
03:24:01 <pikhq> But it definitely should be *allowed*.
03:24:39 <pikhq> Particularly if they add to it an SSH-like policy of "when the cert changes, scream bloody murder".
03:24:47 <pikhq> Yeah, the CA system is kinda... dubious.
03:25:10 <shachaf> imo kmc should move there anyway
03:25:11 <Bike> what is a good system
03:25:15 <kmc> i like how it doesn't matter if you buy a cert from a good CA or a bad one
03:25:24 <elliott> i mean self-signed is perfectly good for encryption
03:25:33 <kmc> so there is no financial incentive for CAs to be good
03:25:44 <elliott> and it's not like https has done "verification" well ever
03:25:44 <kmc> as long as they are just good enough to not get removed from browsers
03:26:13 <pikhq> Bike: Almost anything else really.
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03:26:33 <pikhq> The CA system basically amounts to "trust ANYTHING these guys say to trust".
03:27:18 <elliott> imagine actually trusting verisign
03:27:51 <Bike> obviously what we need is small scale societies. kill a few billion people and then the remainder can all trust each other because they know each other
03:28:15 <shachaf> i trust tricycles and unicycles
03:28:37 <Bike> "Now Who's The Malthus" is the worst party game
03:40:13 <Jafet> kmc: browsers don't remove bad CAs
03:40:19 <Jafet> They only remove CAs that nobody uses
03:40:58 <Bike> they remove them if they're publically compromised
03:42:07 <Jafet> According to this firefox, it still ships with root for diginotar
03:43:39 <Bike> https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2011/08/29/fraudulent-google-com-certificate/ i guess
03:43:50 <kmc> https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2013/01/03/revoking-trust-in-two-turktrust-certficates/
03:44:22 <kmc> i see changes to the CA list in my debian updates pretty often, as well
03:44:45 <kmc> i don't know if they were all Google and Mozilla's doing or some were Debian's
03:45:03 <Jafet> kmc: looks like a CA nobody uses
03:59:09 <kmc> PKI is fucked
03:59:11 <kmc> film at 11
04:00:10 <Bike> is that another kurdish militia
04:00:47 <kmc> i remember back when I read Fark they would have lots of posts about FARC, the colombian guerillas
04:00:50 <kmc> good times
04:01:18 <Bike> I could have sworn there was a Kurdish rebel organization called PKI, like a splinter from the PKK, but nope.
04:02:23 <kmc> #esoteric should become a Kurdish rebel organization
04:02:39 <Bike> well, the PKK is retreating from Turkey.
04:02:48 <Bike> There's probably a vacuum for splinter groups that don't want to do so.
04:02:51 <kmc> does 'oonbotti' mean something in Finnish?
04:03:17 <kmc> google says that "olen botti" means "i have a bot"
04:04:02 <Sgeo_> I want to do that rendering of MIDIs, but just don't know if it's worth it
04:04:03 <shachaf> i thought "olen" was ~ "i am"
04:04:09 <Sgeo_> Erm, having to choose just one soundfont
04:04:22 <Sgeo_> Also, does EC2 come with storage?
04:04:24 <kmc> you should render { all MIDIs } x { all soundfonts }
04:04:41 <Sgeo_> Does YouTube have limits on how much you can upload?
04:04:41 <kmc> and have an interface for voting on which one is best
04:04:45 <kmc> i'm serious, this would be a cool project
04:05:02 <Sgeo_> Fun fact: A lot of the MIDIs I have have random names
04:05:14 <Sgeo_> I've been thinking about doing a project where people could tag the MIDIs
04:05:16 <kmc> how do you know they're random
04:05:29 <Sgeo_> At least, incomprehensible to me
04:05:35 <Sgeo_> Even if not random
04:05:40 <kmc> EC2 has like seven kinds of storage
04:05:50 <kmc> each more confusing and terrible than the rest
04:06:02 <kmc> does that correspond to a well known hash of the file
04:06:42 <Sgeo_> I don't ... think so
04:06:56 <Bike> where do you like... get midis, as a thing
04:06:58 <Sgeo_> I've seen separate installations of the program give different files the same name
04:07:16 <Bike> i mean is that like just downloading every mp3 ever
04:07:39 <kmc> midis sound better when you download them over gopher
04:07:53 <Sgeo_> BYOND is where these weirdly named files came from. Game makers include MIDIs, and also a few of the games allow people to share music, so some of them are from random people
04:08:10 <Sgeo_> There's also Active Worlds, and Worlds.com, although the MIDIs from those are more sanely named
04:08:11 <shachaf> real audiophiles scoff at midis and lois and go straight to highis
04:12:25 <Sgeo_> It shouldn't take an hour to render 917 MIDIs, should it?
04:12:32 <Sgeo_> Ok, maybe it would take more than an hour
04:12:51 <Bike> imo write a super optimized renderer
04:12:57 <kmc> node.js can render over 10,000 midis per second
04:13:12 <Sgeo_> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/ in case anyone wants my midis
04:13:27 <Sgeo_> There's also a .zip file of all of them at http://daychilde.com/midiguy/AllMIDIs.zip
04:18:41 <Sgeo_> What happens if I hate Amazon or if Amazon dies? Are there other things similar to EC2?
04:18:59 <kmc> there are lots of hosting providers
04:19:00 <Deewiant> kmc: 'oonbotti' ~ "I'm a bot" or "O's bot"
04:19:19 <kmc> there are lots of 'cloud' providers meaning they have an API to provision new machines etc
04:19:25 <kmc> there might even be some with an EC2 compatible API
04:19:44 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_(computing) is a package for building AWS-compatible clouds
04:19:52 <kmc> dunno if it's any good, i've only used the client tools
04:19:58 <Sgeo_> Can I just ssh into an instance and do stuff from there, or do I have to design an 'application'?
04:20:04 <kmc> you can do the former
04:21:13 <kmc> they have a lot of fancy terminology for what boils down to just a Linux server
04:21:17 <kmc> at least in the simple use cases
04:21:28 <Sgeo_> Hmmm... in theory, I should be able to VNC into a Windows Server, right? I could play games on EC2 if I wanted!
04:27:08 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/549/the-definitive-guide-to-forms-based-website-authentication well then.
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05:40:32 <shachaf> Debian GNU/Hurd 2013 is out!
05:46:16 <pikhq> Clearly the most important thing.
05:46:42 <coppro> man, that thing is still around?
05:47:02 <Bike> the hurd is eternal
05:47:14 <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
05:47:45 <coppro> `addquote <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
05:47:53 <HackEgo> 1039) <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
05:47:56 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, it really is.
05:47:58 <kmc> it's funny because it's true
05:48:20 <Sgeo_> I remember reading about lilo in a Linux book I had
05:48:32 <Sgeo_> That book also mentioned fvwm95
05:48:37 <pikhq> It's got so many fancy features on top of its *base* not really working.
05:49:05 <Sgeo_> "FVWM98 is a derivative of FVWM95 that is newer, and designed to look like Windows 98 instead of Windows 95."
05:49:14 <coppro> it's really (the) shit
05:49:20 <Sgeo_> Err... there's a significant appearance difference between 95 and 98?
05:49:28 <kmc> LOADLIN is where it's at
05:49:41 <pikhq> And, LILO ain't really an archaicism.
05:49:49 <pikhq> It's fallen out of *favor*, but it's definitely still around.
05:49:57 <kmc> LOADLIN 4 lyfe
05:50:04 <Sgeo_> o.O what appearance differences?
05:50:54 <pikhq> You know that gradient in the title bar?
05:50:58 <pikhq> Windows 95 didn't have that.
05:51:15 <pikhq> It also looks rather different courtesy of not having the IE integration.
05:51:27 <kmc> LOADLIN and Penguin
05:51:40 <pikhq> Actually, the Windows 95 colorscheme in general was different from 98, the other differences were just subtle.
05:51:52 <pikhq> Somewhat warmer colors.
05:52:42 <Sgeo_> As a kid I told someone to 'look for Windows Update' to tell whether they were using 95 or 98
05:52:43 <pikhq> http://toastytech.com/guis/win95desktop3.png http://toastytech.com/guis/win98desk.gif
05:53:01 <kmc> http://windows95tips.com/
05:53:21 <pikhq> In many ways 95 looked nicer.
05:53:38 <Bike> windows95tips has like three times as many followers as his other blogs combined do, and he doesn't understand that at all, it's great
05:53:39 <pikhq> Particularly on 640x480.
05:53:44 <Sgeo_> What's that red icon on the 98 one?
05:54:13 <Sgeo_> I should really be sleeping
05:54:34 <kmc> did any of you play that Hover game that came on the Win 95 CD
05:54:43 <Sgeo_> I have, at a friend's hous
05:54:44 <pikhq> http://toastytech.com/guis/win98bg.gif Windows 98 was... dubious.
05:54:48 <pikhq> kmc: Never had it on CD.
05:55:10 <kmc> i should download and play it immediately
05:55:11 <Sgeo_> pikhq, when the desktop background crashed, it was mostly white with some text, I forget what
05:55:23 <pikhq> I had preinstalled Windows 95 and no idea where the install disc was, and access to the 95 floppies.
05:55:44 <pikhq> They were my grandmother's, but eh.
05:55:47 <kmc> i wonder how paranoid I should be about the possibility that someone has inserted Linux malware in a copy of an 18 year old Windows game
05:56:10 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mclb4vv5tA1rehruqo1_400.png definitely this paranoid
05:56:22 <pikhq> Funny thing, I can't seem to find a copy of the Windows 95 *CD* to pirate at all.
05:56:29 <pikhq> Floppy images sure, but not the CD.
05:56:30 <Sgeo_> That looks like a right hand
05:56:38 <kmc> i think I have a 98SE ISO
05:56:45 <kmc> best version of 9x of course
05:56:47 <Sgeo_> I have a 98SE ISO somewhere
05:56:49 <pikhq> Yeah. I can find 98 and 98SE just fine.
05:56:56 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4KAFMS4MOY
05:57:23 <Sgeo_> I remember Dilbert's Desktop Games
05:57:27 <pikhq> Sadly, I can't find evidence of the 95 5.25" floppy set other than a mention of it.
05:57:50 <pikhq> Yes, apparently you could order a copy of Windows 95 on 5.25" floppies.
05:57:54 <Sgeo_> I remember going into class, I forget the exact reason for this, but I remember saying to the class that I wanted to play it but didn't feel comfortable with the violence
05:58:01 <Sgeo_> (Because of use of a cell phone to shock people)
05:58:11 <Bike> the violence in Dilbert's Desktop Games?
05:59:44 <coppro> sigh, hormones are irritating sometimes
05:59:49 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po3Mp2fOhTI
05:59:58 <pikhq> coppro: They are. Why do you mention it though?
06:00:28 <coppro> pikhq: because they're being irritating to me at the moment and preventing me from simply enjoying time with certain female friends
06:00:55 <pikhq> How amazingly vague.
06:00:57 <coppro> (that is not to say that the make the time unenjoyable, just less so, because I am trying to ensure that they do not influence my actions excessively)
06:01:15 <coppro> what, you expect my life story?
06:01:32 <kmc> coppro: how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
06:01:33 <shachaf> That *is* what this channel is for.
06:01:35 * kmc is just curious
06:01:49 <kmc> somebody once told me this problem gets better around age 25
06:01:53 <Bike> you know hormones have many important functions not related to tits i don't think you should be mean to hormones hello
06:02:02 * pikhq is a curious fellow, and also not particularly secretive.
06:02:32 <pikhq> For instance, today was a straight porn day, not a gay porn day.
06:02:44 <Bike> why divide it into days
06:02:50 <coppro> kmc: it also abates significant when in a relationship, for obvious reasons
06:02:54 <Bike> just have all time be all porn time
06:03:05 <pikhq> Bike: I'm bordering on that TBH. :P
06:03:25 <coppro> hence, the real problem is that I am not currently dating, and my body is objecting to this fact and offering several suggestions
06:03:31 <pikhq> When your girlfriend hands you porn links at random hours, uh, yeah.
06:03:47 <Bike> "yo have you seen Slutbusters 5"
06:04:03 <coppro> my brain, meanwhile, is objecting to the objection
06:04:11 <kmc> ass blasters ε₀
06:04:16 <coppro> or at least wants to sit down sometime later when it's not going to be awkward and have an adult conversation about the matter
06:04:40 <Bike> clearly your problem is dualism
06:05:04 <kmc> is the problem lack of dating or lack of sex or both
06:05:20 <pikhq> Lack of sex is easy.
06:05:25 <coppro> I deal with it regularly
06:05:38 <pikhq> Hmm, I think I could make it up to Waterloo. :P
06:05:53 <Bike> so: kmc's a nympho and everyone else is masturbating furiously
06:06:06 <kmc> i'm not a nympho :<
06:06:16 <kmc> i'd like to find more sex partners in fact
06:06:21 <kmc> but i'm lazy and bad at people
06:06:46 <Bike> The Laziest Nympho
06:07:04 <pikhq> Open relationships are kinda funny when both people are also kinda lazy and bad at people.
06:07:15 <coppro> I'm not too bad at people, I just don't apply myself
06:07:37 <pikhq> "Y'know, we should totally have a threesome." "Yeah, but... who?" "Eh, we'll figure it out later."
06:07:51 <pikhq> It's a very strange sort of problem.
06:07:58 <kmc> i'm also kind of insecure about my own attractiveness
06:08:05 <kmc> ok, very insecure
06:08:05 <coppro> it *really* doesn't help that I have a habit of becoming enamored with people with whom I have to maintain professional relationships
06:08:10 <Bike> "honey, that's a dildo" "I'm not going out on Tuesday night."
06:08:32 <pikhq> I'm slightly insecure. My girlfriend is... quite insecure, though understandably so.
06:08:55 <shachaf> "quite insecure, though understandably so"
06:09:01 <coppro> (I've tried to do the simultaneous personal + professional relationship thing before. It wasn't actually that bad, but the entry and exit had better be flawless)
06:09:08 <pikhq> She's trans. So, yes, understandably so.
06:09:29 <Bike> sounded like you were insulting her, tho :P
06:09:50 <shachaf> That's why I took the sentence fragment and put it in quotation marks.
06:10:02 <pikhq> Just life history making it understandable.
06:10:04 <kmc> i don't think masturbation solves the lack of sex problem, if that was implied above
06:10:23 <pikhq> kmc: I implied we could fuck, for what it's worth. :P
06:10:46 <Bike> [hash]esoteric should have a museum guide tour, where you plug your headphones into a cheap ipod or whatever and they talk about pikhq's Blue Period
06:10:52 <kmc> who's the we there
06:11:03 <pikhq> Bike: Blue period?
06:11:15 <pikhq> Ah, this is an art reference.
06:11:23 * coppro needs to get over the fact that being a semipublic figure means having to act like one
06:11:34 <lambdabot> shachaf says: 3.0 is an edwardk phase, not just a version number. It's like Picasso's Blue Period.
06:11:36 <pikhq> coppro: Wait, you're semipublic?
06:11:37 <kmc> you're a semi-public figure?
06:11:44 <kmc> semipubic figure
06:12:01 <coppro> pikhq: student politician who actually does shit
06:12:48 <kmc> this channel doesn't talk about sex very often
06:12:57 <kmc> the change of pace I mean
06:13:15 <pikhq> Sex is pretty awesome.
06:13:19 <shachaf> seems like the usual #esoteric pace
06:13:48 <shachaf> Keith Johnstone suggested that the "speed" of a scene is related to the rate at which new ideas are introduced rather than the rate that things are "happening".
06:13:51 <coppro> tip: vary the pace for a more overall pleasing experience
06:13:56 <shachaf> ...Or something along those lines.
06:14:32 <coppro> pikhq: I have public figure aspirations, though, so...
06:14:51 <pikhq> Ah, so a gay trist would be a bad thing.
06:15:09 <coppro> nobody cares if you had a gay trist
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06:15:36 <Sgeo_> Would it be at all sane to attempt to use Visual Studio on EC2?
06:15:38 <pikhq> To Canada, to finally have sex with a guy. :P
06:15:54 <coppro> it's a pretty badly kept secret that a current cabinet minister fathered a child with another MP's secretary
06:16:37 <pikhq> Least I've got some experience with cock.
06:16:37 <coppro> and it's actually more dangerous to bring it up than it is for him
06:18:02 <kmc> cock experience eh
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06:19:00 <Bike> menstruation with food coloring
06:19:15 * kmc isn't sure if he correctly interpreted an offer to hook up with pikhq, above, but wouldn't be against it if we met each other in person and found each other attractive and so forth
06:19:19 <kmc> Bike: what
06:19:55 <coppro> Bike: suddenly picasso makes a whole lot more sense
06:19:57 <pikhq> kmc: It was mostly joking, but wouldn't be against it if we met each other in person and found each other attractive and so forth.
06:20:28 <kmc> also is it ok if my girlfriend watches
06:20:42 <Bike> really when i think of periods in art i think of goya's "black", or "totally fucked up" period
06:20:48 <pikhq> Is it ok if my girlfriend watches? :P
06:20:57 <coppro> the english language sucks for expressing "I do not want something" as not meaning "I want not something"
06:21:01 <Bike> with he just painted on the inside of his house
06:21:04 <pikhq> She's a *bit* of a yaoi fangirl. :P
06:21:14 <kmc> coppro: Marduk desires not the barren wasteland of your dessicated viscera.
06:21:19 <Bike> because a guy eating his son is something you paint on your wall
06:21:49 <kmc> pikhq: when I was in highschool a female friend made me a CD full of yaoi and yuri for my birthday
06:21:55 <kmc> it was a pretty good present :)
06:21:57 <coppro> for instance: I possess no desire to experience sexual relations with another male. I do not intrinsically have an objection to this, just that my life exprience indicates that it would likely be unenjoyable
06:22:19 <pikhq> coppro: Shame, that.
06:22:43 <kmc> ....i probably could have hooked up with her, too
06:22:51 <kmc> damn this being incredibly awkward in my teenage years
06:22:53 <Bike> gay porn CD of love
06:22:55 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, but it's high school. You're awkward.
06:23:07 <coppro> pikhq: given that I find it irritating enough to deal with hormones that react to one half of the population, I'm not so sure
06:23:10 <pikhq> And I was then a "no sex before marriage" type as well.
06:23:46 <pikhq> Shame, probably could've had sex for the first time 6 years earlier.
06:23:54 <kmc> it's weird how sex is a BIG FUCKING DEAL (pun intended?) if you're not having any, and if you are, it's just like a fun thing you can do in between watching TV and going for a walk and IRC and whatever
06:23:58 <coppro> I don't think I was ever that type. Possibly because nobody told me sex and marriage were related until I took legal studies class
06:24:09 <pikhq> Fundie upbringing.
06:24:41 <coppro> (ok this is probably hyperbole, but it doesn't paint an inaccurate picture of my conceptions)
06:24:43 <Bike> i don't think sex is a big deal to me and i'm not having any. possibly this is because i've never had any? and also aren't like sixteen any more.
06:24:56 <coppro> ^ except for the never had any bit
06:25:07 <coppro> tbh I care much more about the emotional codependency in a relationship than the sex
06:25:38 * Bike says, while flipping between porn and Darwin
06:26:00 * kmc started college at 16, had a kind of disastrous relationship right away, and then spent a few years being celibate by choice
06:26:20 <Bike> man how do you people get into school so ea- wait i already asked you
06:26:35 <pikhq> Bike: I'm 23 and still haven't graduated college.
06:26:49 <kmc> btw if you are wondering why i'm over-sharing, here is the answer: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw2J2mP2J_Q/TjwFd47dumI/AAAAAAAAABk/Cw5kqVwjvDQ/s1600/kraken_rum.png
06:26:50 <coppro> Bike: I could have if I'd wanted to
06:26:53 <coppro> people talked me out of it
06:27:01 <shachaf> pikhq: i still haven't started college hth
06:27:18 <Bike> the kraken put a beast in your belly? is this like, some kind of bestial unbirthing thing
06:27:26 <coppro> shachaf: a) what is your current profession b) what do you want your profession to be?
06:27:42 <Bike> oh speaking of fucking, i hope you all know about https://twitter.com/voidsexts
06:28:22 <coppro> kmc: you don't appear to be oversharing?
06:28:24 <shachaf> coppro: a) none, exactly b) not quite sure
06:28:36 <coppro> shachaf: get a liberal arts degree
06:28:38 <Bike> apparently in The Old Days these things would start with "Dear Penthouse Playhouse" or whatever
06:28:53 <Bike> i don't know how porn mags work. i think there are bunnies involved
06:28:54 <pikhq> kmc: C'mon, we've not even gone into notable levels of kink. :P
06:29:40 * coppro wishes he had a magic hormone off button
06:29:51 <shachaf> coppro: i think you would die
06:29:53 <kmc> there are drugs that reduce sex drive
06:29:58 <kmc> some of them have unfortunate side effects
06:29:58 <Bike> WP:NOTABLE#kinkiness
06:30:14 <pikhq> (note, do not actually recommend this)
06:30:49 <Bike> last time i mentioned sex suppressant drugs fiora half seriously mentioned wanting to take them. life is weird
06:31:21 <shachaf> Did Fiora go away forever because of me?
06:31:22 <pikhq> Well I'm taking a drug that sometimes *has* that as a side effect...
06:31:25 <kmc> SSRIs reduce sexual function but I think they don't reduce sexual desire, which is unfortunate
06:31:33 <Bike> shachaf: Probably
06:31:42 <Bike> pikhq: yeah, it came up because I was talking about SSRIs, I think
06:31:55 <pikhq> Wouldn't know though, cause I totally have not had that effect.
06:31:58 <Bike> and the whole "occasionally permanently destroys your sex drive" bit
06:32:02 <kmc> i've never taken them but my friend described masturbating all day and never being able to finish
06:32:06 <kmc> which sounds hellish
06:32:25 <pikhq> I've not had any notable change, aside from orgasm being more pleasurable.
06:32:32 <Bike> I think I"ve heard similar stories from people on HRT.
06:32:48 <shachaf> do you have any nonsex things to overshare about
06:32:50 <shachaf> imo that would be more interesting
06:32:52 <kmc> despite my well-known hobbies I haven't had much sex under the influence, as of yet
06:33:01 <kmc> gotta fix this
06:33:02 <pikhq> IIRC my girlfriend had that for a couple months.
06:33:11 <pikhq> Just a relative lack of interest in sex.
06:33:11 <Bike> Well, I feel lonely and emotionless, and am making up for this with hyperrationalization.
06:33:16 <kmc> shachaf: uh, I have a slightly deformed right pinky toe?
06:33:29 <kmc> it doesn't really affect my life in any way other than astounding people at parties
06:33:30 <Bike> kmc: I hear it's addictive?? something something Go Ask Alice
06:33:35 <pikhq> Now she's back up to ludicrously high sex drive.
06:33:38 <kmc> go ask alice when she's ten feet tall
06:33:43 <coppro> the best part about being in a relationship is not having to deal with not being in a relationship
06:33:46 <coppro> if that makes any sense
06:33:51 <coppro> my sex drive is pretty low
06:34:01 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=371
06:34:08 * pikhq has chafed his penis before. To give you an idea.
06:34:22 <Bike> kmc: Fun Bio Fact: in Descent of Man darwin talks about people with weird vestigial muscles, and people with muscular control of their scalp throwing books off their heads to win bets
06:34:28 <pikhq> By the way, that is a terrible experience, would not repeat.
06:34:41 * Bike notes "no dick chafing" in copybook
06:34:42 <coppro> I'm not very rubbable in general
06:34:45 <kmc> sounds like you need a friend to gently rub lotion on your penis
06:35:41 <Bike> shachaf: whoa is this why you do "the quoting thing"
06:36:02 <shachaf> Bike: what you mean that comic
06:36:11 <shachaf> Bike: i don't know i do it because mnoqy
06:36:26 <shachaf> Bike: and mnoqy may well do it because of super mega but probably it precedes 371
06:37:26 * pikhq is honestly quite glad HRT didn't do much to his girlfriend's sex drive. Wheeeee.
06:37:40 <Bike> yeah i think it was the early stages
06:37:46 <Bike> lots of antiandrogens or something
06:38:29 <pikhq> Knocking out the original sex hormones, but the replacement isn't doing anything yet.
06:38:41 * Bike not that interested in chemical side, just watches youtube videos of penises being surgically deconstructed
06:39:10 * pikhq can't stomach much of that.
06:39:38 <pikhq> Familiar, sure, but... yeah
06:39:44 <shachaf> Bike: Surgical deconstruction? How about literary deconstruction?
06:39:46 <Bike> you're not alone there, that's for sure
06:40:00 <Bike> shachaf: literary theory needs less dicks imo
06:40:00 <pikhq> Neovaginoplasty is something I'd prefer to black box. :P
06:40:20 <coppro> pikhq: transgender or ?
06:40:29 <pikhq> coppro: I'm cis. My *girlfriend* is trans.
06:40:31 <Bike> pikhq: i was more willing to watch it than several people who were considering undergoing it. possibly i am freakish
06:40:34 <coppro> pikhq: that's what I meant
06:41:16 <coppro> Bike: the fact that you are not considering undergoing it probably makes you more likely to be willing to watch
06:41:35 <coppro> I've dissected things before and not minded really but I don't really want to watch that I don't think
06:41:39 <pikhq> coppro: Not really.
06:41:52 <Bike> i really found it amazing. I didn't know we were at a point in medicine where we could do that.
06:41:56 <pikhq> I managed to invalidate the mirror neuron theory of autism that way. :P
06:41:56 <coppro> I should really be asleep
06:42:11 <Bike> I was so amazed that I posted it on my blog and got like three people screaming at me to take it away
06:42:30 <pikhq> Bike: I'll admit it is pretty fascinating.
06:42:46 <pikhq> I'm just also squemish.
06:42:48 <Bike> i mean don't get me wrong, if someone doesn't want to watch it, i can understand that
06:43:07 <Bike> at the end of the day, it's still a penis being ripped inside out.
06:43:14 <pikhq> ... And trypanophobic.
06:43:35 <shachaf> hey Bike if you ever run for president are you going to use the slogan "I Like Bike"
06:43:51 <pikhq> I can basically deal with it up until the needle goes in, and then I faint.
06:43:59 <Bike> no, i'll use the slogan "We can Lick Dick" to misdirect them.
06:44:14 <coppro> pikhq: you haven't received an HPV vaccination then, I assume? That one's really weird
06:44:17 <pikhq> Poor doctors must get a heart attack every time that happens, figuring I've got an allergic reaction to the injection.
06:44:22 <pikhq> coppro: I have not.
06:44:28 <coppro> the needle doesn't hurt it all
06:44:36 <pikhq> Probably should, but haven't.
06:44:39 <coppro> it's a really mild prick
06:44:41 <Bike> do you tell them beforehand?
06:44:48 <coppro> the vaccine itself hurts like a bitch though
06:44:54 <Bike> "yo this procedure is some freaky shit and imma faint, just fyi"
06:45:21 <pikhq> And assure them I'm fine afterwards when I'm conscious but dealing with incredibly low blood pressure.
06:45:23 <coppro> pikhq: probably a good idea. No idea how much money that would cost you down in murrica though
06:45:31 <pikhq> Like "my vision is gone" low blood pressure.
06:45:42 <pikhq> coppro: "Mom's willing to pay for it" cost, so.
06:45:51 <coppro> pikhq: that's a pretty good cost
06:46:08 <Bike> that's pretty low blood pressure.
06:46:27 <Bike> i think the only time i've fainted during a medical procedure was the first time i donated blood. not a pleasant experience no
06:46:41 <pikhq> Yeah, um, I'm not even trying to donate blood.
06:46:44 <Bike> not really an unpleasant experience either since i wasn't awake for most of it, but
06:46:45 * kmc is too gay to donate blood, to the Red Cross at least
06:46:48 <Bike> oh, obviously.
06:46:55 <pikhq> Though for the moment I think technically *could*.
06:46:58 <pikhq> Trying to fix that though.
06:47:07 <Bike> need more gay sex and tats
06:47:24 <coppro> pikhq: wait. your girlfriend is mtf or ftm?
06:47:41 <pikhq> Hence "girlfriend", not "boyfriend".
06:47:44 <Bike> if you get a tattoo they make you wait like, 18 months I think.
06:48:11 <Bike> make sure your love of MoM doesn't seep into the blood
06:48:23 <coppro> pikhq: that's what I figured. but then aren't you currently ineligible?
06:48:41 <pikhq> coppro: The policies on trans people are basically "uh?"
06:48:54 <Bike> yeah i was gonna say, i wouldn't even ask the red cross about that
06:49:32 <Bike> every time i've donated they've asked me my gender again. i can't tell if it's like, trying to be inclusive, or they're just really paranoid, or what.
06:49:47 <coppro> pikhq: I figured you were referring to her sex when talking about "trying to fix that"
06:50:00 <pikhq> coppro: Nah, more saying "I need to find a guy to fuck".
06:50:00 <coppro> but that would mean ftm which didn't make sense since you call her a girlfriend
06:50:04 <Bike> uh... i don't remember if they even make that distinction.
06:50:58 <Bike> It probably just says "male or female"? maybe i'll pay more attention next time.
06:51:24 <kmc> i assume from 'ludicrously high sex drive' that you and your girlfriend are happy with the results of surgery? if that's not a super weird question to ask
06:51:32 <pikhq> kmc: She's yet to have surgery.
06:51:52 <pikhq> And I brought it up, so *fair enough*. :P
06:52:05 <pikhq> It'd be weird utterly out of the blue, but in context? Yeah.
06:52:06 <Bike> pikhq is too creative to be limited to penetrative sex like mortals
06:52:27 <pikhq> Oh, there's penetrative sex. Among other things.
06:52:54 <Bike> concatenative sex, function-level sex
06:53:07 <Bike> self modifying sex
06:53:10 * coppro goes to sleep for real
06:53:19 <coppro> Bike: non-von neumann sex hth
06:53:43 <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
06:55:15 <kmc> `addquote <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
06:55:21 <HackEgo> 1040) <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
06:55:28 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, ATM she's still researching surgeons and such. Shit be tricky.
06:55:45 <Bike> i think my quotes paint a picture of me as being a well-programmed joke robot
06:55:56 <pikhq> And I think she still needs a second therapist to sign off on it too.
06:56:20 <pikhq> God it's all a mess.
06:56:34 <Bike> Do you still have to do that thing where you present as your gender without any help for a year?
06:56:51 <pikhq> Bike: No, that has been rejected for being complete and utter bullshit.
06:57:10 <pikhq> Some people still recommend it but this is them holding on to ancient practice.
06:57:12 <Bike> ok, well, as you know a lot of things related to transness are bullshit.
06:57:31 <pikhq> But in this case it was explicitly rejected by the medical community as bullshit.
06:58:29 <pikhq> First therapist my girlfriend saw actually recommended that...
06:58:56 <pikhq> Needless to say, she bolted.
06:59:28 <pikhq> And... yeah, asked a trans friend of ours advice.
06:59:41 <Bike> The Trans Underground
07:02:15 <kmc> friend of mine went to Thailand for her SRS... apparently they have some of the best doctors
07:02:31 <kmc> (but also some of the terrifying cheap operations)
07:06:55 <pikhq> She's been considering it.
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07:07:29 <pikhq> Kinda scary stuff though. Really gotta find a good surgeon.
07:09:02 <pikhq> And it doesn't help that the US incentivizes surgery.
07:09:31 <pikhq> (one can't have gender on most paperwork changed sans surgery)
07:10:39 <Bike> someone i know elsewhere apparently couldn't get her gender changed on her alma mater's documents /ever/ if she couldn't get surgery by the end of some fixed period after she graduated
07:10:44 <Bike> liike what even
07:11:12 <pikhq> Some states don't let you change gender on your birth certificate ever.
07:11:20 <pikhq> Whiiich means you basically can't change your gender.
07:11:27 <pikhq> Sucks if you're not gay!
07:12:00 <pikhq> (note that marriage tends to be based on what the birth certificate says)
07:12:25 <pikhq> (yes, this means that gay marriage is *a okay* so long as one partner is trans and hasn't gotten some paperwork changed.)
07:13:04 <Bike> kafkaesque marriage
07:26:45 <kmc> at least a lot of states don't care about gender for marriage anymore
07:26:51 <kmc> and more states every month :)
07:27:47 <pikhq> Quite glad 'bout that. :)
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07:39:44 <pikhq> Hmmmm. 1:39. Probably time for melatonin.
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14:32:06 <boily> good morning all, even the fternooners!
14:58:28 <coppro> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/05/22/blood-policy-men.html?cmp=rss&utm_source=feedly how far we've come
15:01:29 <boily> proud to be Canadian. yééééé.......... :/
15:12:15 <boily> what's wrong with blood from homosexuals? it's like filtering to not have blood from blacks or whites or yellows or blues or whatever.
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15:29:18 <boily> elliott: afaik, anyone can get HIV?
15:30:30 <boily> hm. looks like testing for HIV is complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test
15:31:04 <elliott> not defending the heuristic, mind
15:32:22 <boily> that I understand. looks like the problem with tests is that you can get a very quick non-conclusive answer, but need a long time that may span months to have a solid assertion.
15:32:51 <boily> oh well. all in all, it's still some non-zero progress.
15:49:25 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, also blood from the uk is banned in most other places
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15:56:14 <fizzie> Tainted UK blood, they don't want the infection to spread.
15:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover> and so although afaik there haven't been any cases for ages they don't know that there aren't a bunch of carriers who are just never going to show symptoms
16:00:56 <Deewiant> There's also this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCJD#New_concerns
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16:05:46 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> One way of saying it, which is misleading but oh well, is that if at every point on the earth wind was moving in only one (tangent) direction, and there are no spooky discontinuities, nowhere on earth would have no wind. <-- you mean "somewhere on earth" hth
16:06:47 <elliott> oerjan... we just got the report back from the doctor, and... I'm so sorry... it doesn't help
16:06:56 <elliott> they said that it hasn't helped for years
16:07:30 <oerjan> well we can only keep praying hth
16:15:31 <oerjan> because he found it a hairy theorem hth
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16:22:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i think we logreaders might need an ignore feature hth
16:29:34 <oerjan> <elliott> n.b. you might have to change your name <-- mr. mcEllister may not have to change the pronunciation, though
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17:00:10 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: it was my fault. I had a mathematicese problem trying to understand hair on balls.
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17:23:26 <metasepia> CYUL 221700Z 15008KT 15SM OVC015 18/14 A2982 RMK SC8 SLP099 DENSITY ALT 600FT
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17:50:46 <oerjan> <kmc> shachaf: uh, I have a slightly deformed right pinky toe? <-- hm both my pinky toes have the outer part of the nail split off and sort of knobbly
17:51:57 <oerjan> outer as in right part of the right one, and left part of the left one
17:52:30 <oerjan> hm i've never thought about checking if that's common
17:54:46 <oerjan> hm the google images either show obviously diseased toes or are too small to discern
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18:01:30 <Koen_> oerjan have you be trying to compare your toes to toes of strangers from the internet again?
18:01:46 <olsner> hmm, my modem's apparently still rebooting every 5-30 minutes, so I guess I'll be out of here pretty soon
18:01:52 <oerjan> except for the "again", yes.
18:05:09 <kmc> elliott: probably
18:05:30 <oerjan> as far as i can tell most pictures don't have such. also i don't _think_ what i have is a "lister corn" - it's not painful in any way...
18:06:15 <oerjan> maybe i should ask my doctor some time.
18:06:29 <olsner> have you posted a picture of it to reddit?
18:06:56 <oerjan> Koen_: my research of the top google image pages indicates that most people have even uglier toes than me hth
18:07:18 <oerjan> olsner: no. and i still don't have any digital camera.
18:07:22 <tswett> Kesuuntumisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut huotua varoittavana vahtina seka jatteensuojana.
18:07:47 <fizzie> That looks like it's missing some y's.
18:08:07 <fizzie> And diacritics, but that's usual; turning y's to u's isn't.
18:08:38 <Koen_> oerjan: either that, or people who have prettier toes than you tend to put less photos of their toes on the internet
18:08:48 <boily> a language without diacritics is not a true languagë.
18:08:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you have a scanner? Can you stick your foot in it?
18:09:22 <fizzie> Given how many foot fetishists there are, I'd've thought it easy to find pictures of toes.
18:09:33 <oerjan> fizzie: google translate had some troubles with that finnish
18:09:40 <olsner> maybe you can send an analog picture to someone with internet and a digital camera or scanner
18:09:49 <fizzie> oerjan: It's supposed to be "Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensuojana", I'd think.
18:10:20 <Koen_> if you were nicolas cage you'd drive through a red light and show your toes to the camera
18:10:35 <tswett> fizzie: I think that's almost right, but that's "jätteensyöjänä" on the end.
18:10:48 <fizzie> tswett: Oh, right, that makes more sense.
18:11:01 <fizzie> tswett: I was wondering why you'd need to protect garbage, actually.
18:11:52 <tswett> Alun perin koirarodun muodosti ruhma koiria, joilla oli tiettu kauttotarkoitus.
18:11:54 <oerjan> ok that helped but GT still doesn't know what jätteensyöjänä is
18:12:09 <fizzie> oerjan: Someone who eats your garbage hth
18:12:30 <fizzie> Where do all those u's come from?
18:12:42 <tswett> They were originally y's.
18:12:50 <fizzie> Yes, but why are they now u's?
18:13:22 <Deewiant> Preserves vowel harmony without äö
18:14:14 <tswett> I wonder how expressive you could be in Finnish without using any front vowels.
18:15:01 <oerjan> ooh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_nail_of_the_fifth_toe
18:15:32 <oerjan> i never knew i had chinese ancestry!
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18:16:05 <Koen_> please don't learn biology with wikipedia
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18:16:21 <olsner> "See also: Mongoloid race"
18:16:30 <fizzie> "After Yin Wang stabbed her in the abdomen as she tried to escape, she gave birth to two children with a scar on the small toe of the foot -- and their descendants became born with double nails on their small toes" is that really how inheriting things works?
18:16:52 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:17:00 <Koen_> fizzie: the knife hit the dna directly hth
18:17:41 <oerjan> except the one in that picture doesn't look knobbly...
18:18:12 <Koen_> does it look knively?
18:18:16 -!- fizzie has set topic: We drank all the throwing wine | Goal for 2013: hthiest channel of the network? | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:18:54 <Koen_> we're the happiest
18:19:11 <olsner> the most hopiest that helps
18:19:43 <boily> `quote throwing wine
18:20:21 <boily> hairiest, hambiguitest, hon-topickest.
18:20:41 <oerjan> hm *knobby, probably, there seems to be a difference
18:22:13 <boily> `learn hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
18:25:49 <oerjan> new hth research is proceeding at breathtaking speed
18:28:00 <oerjan> "nail knob" is apparently some kind of device
18:28:49 * oerjan gives up his research for now
18:30:43 <oerjan> the little turing machine that could
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18:32:59 <ais523> apport somehow felt that this was its fault
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18:47:16 <fizzie> qmail is always very apologetic.
18:47:43 <fizzie> "Hi. This is the qmail-send program at here.and.there. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out."
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19:06:50 <kmc> there are a few things that are heritable in a lamarckian way
19:07:06 <kmc> antibodies for diseases
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19:54:34 <oerjan> "This frequent relocation of our web address was done specifically to please Phantom Hoover. (We're working on a brainfuck derivative, too, to make his joy complete. Stay tuned.)"
19:54:44 <oerjan> http://catseye.tc/node/catseye.tc.html
19:58:15 <Bike> genes aren't lamarckian
20:01:09 <tswett> Mm, Lamarckian inheritance is apparently only things that are acquired during an organism's lifetime.
20:01:33 <tswett> It's not entirely common for people to acquire genes during their lifetime.
20:01:54 <Bike> what you're saying has in fact been a focus of biology for over a century.
20:02:12 <tswett> Retroviruses and whatnot?
20:03:03 <Bike> retroviruses are pretty rare, and not what lamarck really had in mind; the classic example of the lamarckian idea is a giraffe's neck getting stretchier over the generations as successive mothers stretch theirs
20:05:00 <kmc> bacteria will slurp up DNA from wherever, though
20:05:01 <Bike> but there are ineritable acquired characteristics, the most obvious being from horizonal gene transfer
20:05:55 <kmc> fun biology fact: C. elegans eats bacteria, so if you want to do RNA interference studies in C. elegans you can create transgenic bacteria and feed it to them
20:08:32 <Bike> "I feel like I'm in an episode of Star Trek. The PCI ROM for the video card on my PPC system is entirely full of threes. Every single byte is a three."
20:11:23 <kmc> i don't know if you can convince them to reverse transcribe that RNA though
20:11:31 <kmc> presumably you would need to feed them, like, reverse transcriptase
20:12:08 <Bike> whatever gets us attack of the giant nematodes faster
20:12:23 <kmc> we'll save earth at the 11th hour using nematophagous fungi
20:14:43 * boily pokes kmc to check if he isn't fungot in disguise
20:14:44 <fungot> boily: at the first, we typically is most welcome the new: 50,000 member on the conference of the units of the matter that the other central banks in the warrants that showed the national securities exchanges.
20:15:01 * boily pokes again. "needs to be really sure"
20:15:26 <kmc> biology is a massive global project to reverse engineer machines designed by an alien 'intelligence'
20:15:29 <kmc> pretty cool
20:15:38 <Bike> alien lack of intelligence
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20:15:55 <kmc> more like bikeology
20:16:15 <boily> bikes are biological. they have fluids and bones and go around.
20:16:16 <Bike> the study of making people insult biology
20:16:30 <kmc> i'm sure there are long philosophical arguments about whether evolution is intelligent
20:17:11 <Bike> kmc: biologists tend to shy away from anything that makes out evolution to be a directed, teleological process. except when they don't
20:18:41 <kmc> definitely evolution can't plan for the future, which is a p. important part of intelligence
20:18:57 <kmc> and this is why the abstraction boundaries in organisms are all fucked up
20:19:00 <kmc> massive technical debt imo
20:19:55 <pikhq> Oh *man*, qemu's sound emulation is glitched.
20:20:02 <Bike> "In the Theory with which we have to deal, Absolute Ignorance is the artificer, so that we may enunciate as the fundamental principle of the whole system, that IN ORDER TO MAKE A PERFECT AND BEAUTIFUL MACHINE IT IS NOT REQUISITE TO KNOW HOW TO MAKE IT. This proposition will be found, on careful examination, to express in a condensed form the essential purport of the Theory and to express in a few words all Mr Darwin's meaning; who, by a ...
20:20:08 <Bike> ... strange inversion of reasoning, seems to think Absolute Ignorance fully qualified to take the place of Absolute Wisdom in all the achievements of creative skill."
20:20:28 <pikhq> It seems like as soon as the sound card started being used, it started to fail to actually change the audio buffer out fast enough.
20:20:47 <pikhq> So I'm hearing a little bit of the Windows 95 startup sound repeated over and over.
20:21:00 <Bike> brian eno's hell
20:22:32 <pikhq> Well, let's see if it's just the sound emulation borked.
20:22:45 <pikhq> Once the sound finished it went back to normal.
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21:04:38 <kmc> elliott: http://grenzgenial.com/post/2414488498/javascript-and-the-brain-why-javascript-is-the-future
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21:25:46 <mnoqy> a) No types: types are stupid.
21:26:33 <mnoqy> this this guy serious and for real
21:27:10 <mnoqy> what a bad analogy
21:27:18 <mnoqy> what a bad blog post
21:28:10 <olsner> less bad than the one about pipes, I think
21:28:27 <mnoqy> are pipes like brains too
21:28:47 <shachaf> kmc: oh that's a good article
21:30:42 <olsner> fungot: are your brain functions first class?
21:30:42 <fungot> olsner: market short to them."
21:32:52 <fizzie> fungot: Funge-98 is like a brain because it has no types, right? Also it looks all brainy.
21:32:52 <fungot> fizzie: for the complete name of slater is asking the bankruptcy. 35; and dynegy of today).
21:33:17 <boily> imnsho, fungot is the future.
21:33:17 <fungot> boily: all of the meeting on the street. slump that wasn't enough that the expiration of the market i normally do not have the balance of the my cdnow.
21:33:34 <boily> fizzie: that's because you cdnow isn't balanced.
21:33:44 <elliott> kmc: happily that link freezes my browser
21:33:53 <kmc> \rainbow{JAVASCRIPT}
21:34:03 <kmc> did it also give you a seizure
21:34:16 <olsner> are there other links that can thaw your browser?
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21:43:23 <Taneb> @tell oerjan I couldn't destroy the world due to RSA working.
21:43:42 <Taneb> So, how is everyone?
21:44:21 -!- abumirqaan has joined.
21:53:16 <boily> Taneb: somewhat orange, not soundly emulated, mocking biololology, and combing balls.
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21:53:50 <Taneb> I find the hairy ball problem difficult to explain to my friends
21:54:56 -!- Bike has joined.
21:55:01 <ais523> the problem is that it's easy if you have a finite number of hairs
21:55:38 <Taneb> ais523: I generally get stuck because everyone is laughing at the name and won't take anything I say seriously for about 4 hours at least
21:55:50 <ais523> oh, I didn't even think of that angle
21:56:51 <Taneb> In other news, I tried to break RSA
21:56:55 <Taneb> Didn't get very far
21:57:19 <Taneb> Wrote a program that factorizes semiprimes sometimes
22:00:18 <Taneb> It's probably better than trial division
22:00:18 <Taneb> But there's a few edge cases it doesn't account for
22:03:05 <Taneb> It works by a half-remembered wheel factorization
22:03:05 <Taneb> And by starting around the square root of the semiprime
22:03:25 <Taneb> But nobody really cares, do they?
22:03:41 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:04:36 <Taneb> On the other hand, I used mfix in a "real"-ish situation for the first time
22:04:56 <Taneb> And the C pre-processor
22:14:07 <Taneb> So I guess I learnt something!
22:14:50 <kmc> what did you use mfix for?
22:15:05 <kmc> and did you consider using recursive do
22:15:09 <kmc> or is that not the same thing
22:15:27 <olsner> when he said mfix I just assumed he used it via recursive do
22:15:42 <Taneb> No, I actually used mfix
22:15:46 <olsner> iirc it's all sugar for mfix
22:16:26 <Taneb> I used it so that I can have in a thread terminator a way to kill all the other threads
22:17:50 <Taneb> Because to kill all the threads I need their ThreadIds, but to get the ThreadIds, I need the terminator (finalizer? function that's run when the thread is about to terminate) which includes killing all the threads
22:20:45 <olsner> hmm, sounds like an odd problem
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22:23:04 <Taneb> olsner: I have 8 threads each checking different numbers for a solution
22:23:12 <Taneb> I know only one of them will find a solution
22:25:35 <Taneb> So that when one of them finds a solution, it kills all the others
22:25:35 <Taneb> Does that make sense?
22:26:02 <olsner> don't you get a thread id when you fork a thread or something? that would make sense
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23:16:25 <kmc> well, fuck you lambdabot
23:16:38 <kmc> forkIO :: IO () -> IO ThreadId
23:17:05 <shachaf> @ty Control.Concurrent.forkIO
23:17:07 <lambdabot> IO () -> IO GHC.Conc.Sync.ThreadId
23:17:19 <kmc> great name
23:17:44 <kmc> i saw two mourning doves!
23:17:52 <kmc> they were kind of small. they might be young
23:17:58 <shachaf> i bought two cadbury flakes!
23:18:32 <kmc> who knows man
23:18:37 <kmc> probably nothing
23:18:41 <kmc> they're birds
23:18:57 <kmc> i don't know why rock doves outnumber mourning doves like 100x here
23:22:04 <kmc> maybe mourning doves are less suited to eating trash
23:22:29 <kmc> maybe it's that rock doves are bigger and more aggressive and will scare them off
23:25:21 <Sgeo_> Gregor, do you have an opinion about GeneralUser?
23:25:43 <pikhq> Maybe there's a reason the doves are mourning.
23:26:16 <Sgeo_> I should fix my apt
23:29:44 <Sgeo_> Things I shouldn't do: Generate a file full of locations of decade-old objects that anyone can destroy if they get their hands on the location
23:30:10 <Sgeo_> Well, I've been thinking of generating the file and giving it to trustworthy groups
23:32:22 <Sgeo_> Non-paying users in Active Worlds don't get accounts, but they can build. Their builds, given account number 0, can be deleted by anyone.
23:32:35 <Sgeo_> There are such builds that are over a decade old.
23:33:05 <Bike> yeah that would be way less dorky and silly a thing to say if you meant real objects
23:33:05 <Sgeo_> I can't help wondering what the oldest is, can't help wondering where some of these places are, secret tourist builds, etc.
23:35:39 <elliott> Bike: wait you thought it was about real objects?
23:37:05 <Bike> for like half a second
23:37:29 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4 (DS9 spoilers)
23:37:43 <shachaf> kmc: what should i do with my second cadbury flake
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23:47:08 <Sgeo_> "Password generation and encryption can sometimes take more than 30 minutes. Please wait at least 15 minutes after launching an instance before trying to retrieve the generated password."
23:47:11 <Sgeo_> Grah that's annoying
23:48:30 <kmc> http://flux-labs.com/2013/03/duplicating-house-keys-using-a-3d-printer/
23:48:32 <kmc> key hacking
23:48:49 <kmc> if you have the capability to manufacture ~50 keys then you can easily escalate privileges from a single-door key to a master key
23:49:03 <kmc> that's not in the article, but it's a true fact
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23:52:56 <shachaf> <ion> Proposal: rename "Monad" to "Burrito"
23:58:33 <kmc> my friend has a 3D printer and has printed a variety of useful household shit with it
00:03:12 <kmc> he printed a toothbrush holder
00:03:20 <kmc> and hookah mouthpieces
00:03:29 <kmc> and some art that probably helped him get laid so I guess that's useful too?
00:10:37 <shachaf> do i eat my second cadbury flake now
00:11:40 <kmc> well there's that experiment where the kids who can't delay gratification on eating candy grow up to be criminals
00:11:44 <kmc> so I say eat it now
00:12:14 <shachaf> but i'm already a criminal
00:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, you know what my favourite thing about that video is
00:12:52 <shachaf> you know who's a criminal? people who sticks gums under table
00:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> the way that the music just kind of blends into this stuttering "brass band slowly dying" drone
00:13:13 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What do you say?
00:13:26 <shachaf> What do you think of Flake?
00:14:54 <shachaf> what do you think of mekupelet
00:15:23 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
00:15:41 <Bike> does that mean you worship hats, or
00:15:53 <elliott> Bike: it means he plans hat heists
00:16:07 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/.$/ and wrong./' wisdom/phantom_hoover
00:17:00 <Bike> what is a hat heist
00:17:06 <shachaf> do you know what a heist is
00:17:07 <elliott> it's where you plan to steal the pope's hat
00:17:14 <Bike> oh that sounds fun.
00:19:03 <kmc> then you become the pope
00:19:13 * Sgeo_ attempts to run AW on EC2
00:20:29 <Bike> is that Advance Wars
00:20:30 <kmc> Sgeo_ be trippin'
00:20:45 <elliott> Bike: it's activeworlds, don't you know anything
00:21:00 <Sgeo_> There is a software rendering option. It sucks, but it exists, so doesn't need z graphics card
00:21:35 <Bike> elliott: don't encourage sgeo to trip
00:21:57 <Sgeo_> Apparently using the default security group is dumb
00:22:08 <Sgeo_> Can't actually connect with it
00:23:31 <Sgeo_> Its internet connection seems slow
00:23:37 <Sgeo_> I cancelled the AW download
00:26:40 <Bike> is this new to you
00:26:59 <shachaf> Bike: i'm not sure Phantom_Hoover has ever tried this tactic
00:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover> who the hell thought it'd be a good idea to have a few pages of template in every language but the one the wiki is written in before any actual page content
00:28:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: english is there
00:28:32 <kmc> ceci n'est pas une etc.
00:29:10 <Bike> What are the five Chinese ones? mandarin traditional, mandarin simplified, cantonese, wu...?
00:29:38 <shachaf> kmc: so are you coming to CA next week
00:30:20 <shachaf> none of the places you're interviewing at are in SF are they :'(
00:32:30 <kmc> yeah probably May 29 - June 4 or so
00:32:44 <kmc> still waiting to hear back about travel arrangements
00:33:04 <elliott> Bike: do you know category theory yet
00:33:15 <Bike> do i look like an algebraic topologist!
00:34:20 <kmc> shachaf: I'm interviewing with Mozilla in Mountain View but I would work in SF if I get the job
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00:34:40 <kmc> we should hang out or something
00:34:59 <kmc> my interviews will be May 30 and June 3 (probably) so I will have three days free incl. weekend
00:37:45 <shachaf> It's not like you to make plans about where you'll be a week in advance.
00:41:04 <kmc> maybe i've become boring in my old age
00:41:12 <kmc> lexande is hitchhiking to alaska
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00:48:52 <elliott> kmc: how old are you again
00:49:27 <shachaf> about a year younger than the toy story person
00:50:41 <elliott> kmc: imo that's only kind of old, not really old (fizzie) or practically dead (oerjan)
00:50:47 <kmc> how old are they
00:51:01 <elliott> fizzie is like 30? he's been not quite 30 for approximately forever so I guess he's either 29 or 30 now
00:51:17 <elliott> oerjan is um gosh like 40 or something
00:51:27 <shachaf> whoa dude in 5 years kmc will be 30
00:51:32 <kmc> we had that cobol person in here
00:51:32 <elliott> let's say... 42 and if he's younger than that, god have mercy on my soul
00:51:37 <kmc> i guess he/she was pretty old
00:51:44 <elliott> oh god he's going to kill me
00:52:41 <kmc> meanwhile elliott is 17 or something??
00:53:01 <Bike> a whippersnapper
00:53:20 <elliott> spoiler: i feel old just like everybody else
00:53:21 <kmc> so you were born after I got my first Internet connection
00:53:34 <kmc> you were in kindergarten on 9/11
00:53:47 <elliott> i sort of vaguely remember 9/11
00:54:15 <kmc> i sort of vaguely remember the first gulf war
00:54:16 <elliott> kindergarten is a bit weird, we have "preschool" instead and i think the age-ranges are different? but yeah
00:54:30 <elliott> apologies for being young :P
00:54:33 <kmc> we have preschool in the US too, it's optional and usually private
00:54:36 <kmc> not sure, don't have kids
00:54:39 <kmc> don't want kids
00:55:00 <shachaf> in .il there's preschool and forced-preschool
00:55:10 <shachaf> ok maybe that's not the best translation
00:55:36 <Bike> are you telling me you didn't grow up in a kibbutz
00:55:39 <kmc> i like how "private school" and "public school" are the same thing in the uk
00:55:46 <elliott> despite only vaguely remembering 9/11 itself it's still of course this big important milestone to me because i grew up reading things written by people who were adults when it happened and who it was directly relevant to etc.
00:57:56 <Sgeo_> Are Chromebooks expensive if I just want a laptop to VNC to a gaming computer when I don't feel like sitting at a desk?
00:58:32 <kmc> but make sure there's a satisfactory VNC client for chromeos
00:58:40 <kmc> there are expensive chromebooks but most aren't
00:58:55 <Sgeo_> There's the built-in desktop sharing thing that Chrome has...
01:00:43 <Sgeo_> Who is the Chromebook Pixel targetted for, exactly?
01:01:07 <Sgeo_> Gamers generally want a Windows OS, people who just want to browse the web lightly have cheaper options
01:01:23 <Sgeo_> Programmers probably also want a different OS
01:13:51 <Koen_> elliott: I'll always remember it as my mother telling me something along the lines of "interesting fact of the day: a plane crashed into a skyscrapper apparently" in a casual tone at the end of the day
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01:14:59 <shachaf> I need to go to SF sometime to get my passport extended.
01:16:20 <kmc> i suppose if you're outside of the US then the relevance of 9/11 is less "a terrorist attack happened" and more "America is going to go apeshit and bomb the fuck out of a randomly chosen country"
01:17:12 <Bike> well a couple thousand people died all at once, that doesn't usually happen in the west
01:18:12 <Koen_> I didn't even know it was a terrorist attack!
01:18:25 <Koen_> ok I may not have known what a terrorist was
01:18:59 <elliott> Koen_: is your mother a sociopath :P
01:19:18 <Koen_> no she just didn't realize it was so big
01:19:28 <Bike> and actually multiple thousands of deaths don't happen all at once anywhere really, it takes a while or a lot of space to kill that many people with small arms (what am i going on about)
01:19:52 <Koen_> well that's how I remember it, maybe I was the one who didn't realize what exactly she was saying
01:23:32 <Koen_> and then there was all this "vigipirate" fuss going on
01:24:08 <Koen_> like all kids had to get out of school at the same time, rather than having our parents come get us in a two-hour window
01:24:47 <Koen_> I really didn't understand that, they said it was to make bomber's job more difficult but really how is forcing everyone together at the same time making a bomber's job more difficult?
01:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> although the only thing i clearly remember was being terrified of my parents being drafted (i was an anxious child)
01:34:50 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
01:36:57 <shachaf> hey did you play _The Lost Vikings_
01:43:34 <shachaf> i wasn't talking to you mr Wrongtom_Wronger
01:44:21 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
01:46:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:50:24 <kmc> you peer'd PH
01:50:43 <Bike> he was just that wrong
01:50:50 <kmc> brittle as celery? crazy as celery?
01:52:32 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.pax.no/index.php?ID=Bok&counter=1103 hth
01:56:00 * Sgeo_ suddenly wonders if there's a difference between Unison.sf2 and Unison2.sf2
01:56:22 <Sgeo_> Yes. Unison.sf2 actually exists.
02:02:59 <kmc> a subtle difference
02:06:25 <Sgeo_> libc-dev-bin : Depends: libc6 (> 2.13~) but 2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4 is installed
02:06:41 <Sgeo_> How do I stop Ubuntu from trying to install new libc6?
02:06:53 <Sgeo_> (That's from apt-get update)
02:08:20 <elliott> i doubt it is from apt-get update
02:09:55 <Sgeo_> apt-get install I mean
02:09:59 <Sgeo_> Just a plain apt-get install
02:11:01 <Sgeo_> GeneralUser has a specialized FluidSynth version, I don't know if that's a good thing
02:15:21 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'll just compile manually
02:15:41 <Bike> do you need an old libc?
02:16:07 <kmc> oh good it's fireworks season again
02:22:01 <shachaf> What's a generalization of "pseudoscientific" when the topic is not scientific?
02:28:52 <Sgeo_> Bike, I don't trust this thing enough to attempt the upgrade
02:29:00 <Sgeo_> Especially since it's still running entirely Maverick afaik
02:29:19 <Bike> maybe you should just get a setup that isn't crazy?
02:30:05 <Bike> cleansing fire
02:34:19 <Sgeo_> Hmmmm.... I suppose I could use S3 for temporary backup....
02:34:30 <Sgeo_> Wait, is S3 the publically visible thing/
02:34:42 <kmc> i think you can have private S3 buckets or whatever the hell
02:34:56 <Sgeo_> Right now I should be eating
02:35:05 <Sgeo_> I was so numbly unfocused at work :(
02:35:09 <Sgeo_> I blame being tired
02:36:19 <mnoqy> have you tried getting more sleep
02:36:32 <Sgeo_> o.O you can't upload a file larger than 5TB to S3 I think.
02:36:40 <hagb4rd2> so u managed to get a job sgeo. happy with it?
02:36:56 <Sgeo_> hagb4rd2, sometimes
02:36:59 <shachaf> "@miuaf according to my sample size of one, Haskell programmers are dysfunctional stalkers who are clearly thinking about raping me"
02:37:07 <shachaf> Something is off about that sort of generalization, don't you think?
02:37:23 <hagb4rd2> sgeo: thats cool i guess.. congrats
02:38:57 <elliott> shachaf: "sample size of one" makes it pretty clear it's not intended to be a generalisation?
02:39:10 <elliott> if someone was intending to generalise from a sample size of one they wouldn't say the sample size was one
02:39:16 <Sgeo_> Website development
02:40:10 <shachaf> Yes. And it's pretty clearly a joke. But I don't think that makes it OK?
02:40:15 <Bike> if someone was intending to generalize from a sample size of one they probably wouldn't do so in a silly message on twitter
02:41:17 <shachaf> (Also it seems kind of rude to say it to kmc. Though I guess he wasn't the one they had in mind.)
02:41:45 <kmc> i don't care
02:42:05 <elliott> i don't know the context but i think you're reading something into that message that isn't there
02:42:09 <Bike> "@miuaf also someone once told me that character strings are implemented as linked lists of integers and my face was like 😱" fantastic use of unicode
02:42:16 <Bike> which... displays in my browser but not on irc.
02:48:07 <kmc> screen doesn't do non-BMP characters
02:48:22 <elliott> i am using urxvt + mosh + dtach and it doesn't show :(
02:48:27 <Bike> it's probably just my term using a different font
02:48:36 <elliott> and my terminal usually does fallbacky font things properly
02:49:09 <Bike> well it's 1F631 FACE_SCREAMING_IN_FEAR if you need to know
02:49:51 <lifthrasiir> is it a common theme that poking fun with Unicode emoticons
02:50:22 <Sgeo_> Honestly, I just want to hear what GeneralUser sounds like, without having to bother Gregor to add it
02:50:35 <Sgeo_> Unless we can add soundfonts or do fluidsynth stuff through HackEgo?
02:50:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fluidsynth: not found
02:54:16 <Sgeo_> ...dammit I don't have cmake installed
02:56:51 <Sgeo_> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
02:56:51 <Sgeo_> libc-dev-bin : Depends: libc6 (> 2.13~) but 2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4 is installed
02:56:51 <Sgeo_> libc6 : Depends: libc-bin (= 2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4) but 2.13-0ubuntu13.2 is installed
02:57:00 <pikhq> Have you considered dist-upgrade?
02:57:02 <Sgeo_> ....do I actually have different versions of libc and libc-bin installed?
02:57:08 <Sgeo_> pikhq, what would I upgrade to? Natty?
02:57:18 <Sgeo_> I think something along those lines is what broke everything
02:58:04 <pikhq> dist-upgrade doesn't actually upgrade you to a new version of a distro, it's just able to do a bit more package jiggering to get your system in a consistent state.
02:58:31 <Bike> oh, is that so. darn.
02:59:09 <Sgeo_> pikhq, tells me to try sudo apt-get -f install
02:59:30 <Sgeo_> I may have rejected an attempt to install newer libc at one point in the past
02:59:33 <Sgeo_> Because I was scared of it
02:59:42 <Sgeo_> Could that have broken everything?
02:59:56 <elliott> perhaps aptitude knows how to solve the packages
03:00:13 <Sgeo_> Guess what's not installed?
03:00:47 <Sgeo_> How do I see holds?
03:01:21 <pikhq> Won't show it, but...
03:02:33 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/tkx9lg2frlpyin24jkiltg
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03:03:47 <pikhq> Which version of Ubuntu are you on?
03:04:43 <coppro> the one that doesn't work
03:05:18 <Bike> why don't you just use a REAL distro like slackware
03:05:28 <kmc> why don't you just use an IMAGINARY distro like @
03:05:38 <Sgeo_> Although I attempted to upgrade it at one point
03:05:45 * kmc wonders if elliott highlights on @
03:05:59 <elliott> kmc: that sounds inconvenient
03:06:01 <pikhq> Sgeo_: ... Y'mean this thing hasn't been updated since 2010?
03:06:05 <elliott> i see basically everything said in #esoteric while i'm around though
03:06:06 <shachaf> 19:58 <elliott> alternative preludes remind me of people writing, say, their own operating system. cute and fun, but irrelevant
03:06:17 <elliott> is this paste things from elsewhere day
03:06:28 <elliott> i never claimed @ is relevant though
03:06:56 <shachaf> you claimed it was the best
03:07:01 <shachaf> i.e. possessing all positive properties
03:07:08 <kmc> also you never claimed to have actually written any of it
03:07:11 <shachaf> surely being the best and relevant is better than being the best and irrelevant
03:07:26 <shachaf> hmm, i should end all my proofs with hth
03:07:26 <Sgeo_> I installed it a while ago, then just kept using the Windows partition until that stopped, and now stuck on obsolete Linux
03:07:44 <elliott> kmc: imo you should help out by writing some of it
03:08:24 <pikhq> Sgeo_: First, edit your sources to point to old-releases.ubuntu.com instead of archive.ubuntu.com
03:09:21 <Sgeo_> deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu maverick main universe restricted multiverse
03:09:43 <pikhq> Arch. Architecure. What is uname -a
03:09:48 <Sgeo_> There are a lot of commented-out references to natty in here
03:09:59 <Sgeo_> Linux sgeo-Satellite-T215D 2.6.35-32-generic #67-Ubuntu SMP Mon Mar 5 19:35:26 UTC 2012 i686 GNU/Linux
03:11:01 <pikhq> Yeah, it looks like you've got a natty libc.
03:11:03 <kmc> wow old-releases.ubuntu.com is in your sources.list
03:11:18 <elliott> kmc: it's almost as if pikhq told him to add it
03:11:28 <Sgeo_> I figured out to add it earlier today
03:12:06 <Sgeo_> How do I unget the natty libc?
03:13:56 <tswett> Sgeo_: I just sent a message to agora-business purporting to destroy your nickname.
03:14:31 <pikhq> Download: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/libc-bin_2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4_i386.deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/libc6-amd64_2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4_i386.deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/libc6-dev_2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4_i386.deb
03:14:59 <pikhq> dpkg -i all of those
03:16:58 <pikhq> Oh, you also want: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/libn/libnih/libnih1_1.0.2-1ubuntu2_i386.deb
03:17:34 <pikhq> After forcing those installed you should be in a vaguely consistent state.
03:17:49 <pikhq> Oh, you may also need --force-downgrade
03:18:06 <Sgeo_> All in one command?
03:18:21 <pikhq> It shouldn't make a difference.
03:18:32 <pikhq> But yes, those 4 packages.
03:19:09 <pikhq> Immediately after this, at *least* upgrade all the way up to Precise.
03:19:18 <pikhq> (you want to do this in several steps)_
03:19:54 <kmc> upgrade to debian
03:20:16 <pikhq> I'm operating under the assumption he doesn't want to reinstall.
03:20:19 <Sgeo_> pikhq, any good and safe ways to do this?
03:20:29 <pikhq> If he does, save home and reinstall.
03:20:53 <pikhq> Sgeo_: First, edit your sources.list to refer to natty. apt-get update;apt-get dist-upgrade.
03:21:06 <Sgeo_> pikhq, old-releases natty?
03:21:08 <pikhq> Repeat for Oneiric, then Precise. (Precise won't be on old-releases)
03:21:15 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/wpkfwf0fekzh88hn0q2lq
03:21:25 <pikhq> If you wanna be all up-to-date, go to Quantal then Raring.
03:21:58 <pikhq> --force-downgrade before -i
03:22:13 <pikhq> I forgot the libc6-dev-bin
03:23:00 <pikhq> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/libc6-amd64_2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4_i386.deb
03:23:08 <pikhq> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/libc-dev-bin_2.13-0ubuntu13_i386.deb
03:23:26 <pikhq> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/libc-dev-bin_2.12.1-0ubuntu10.4_i386.deb
03:23:44 <pikhq> Install that sucker and libc6-dev
03:24:21 <Sgeo_> dpkg: error processing --force-downgrade (--install):
03:24:22 <Sgeo_> cannot access archive: No such file or directory
03:24:31 <pikhq> --force-downgrade goes before --install.
03:24:57 <Sgeo_> I think it's all done
03:25:14 <pikhq> Mmkay. Now apt-get -f install and do those upgrades.
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03:25:23 <pikhq> You *may* stop on Precise.
03:25:47 <pikhq> You might wanna go newer, but Precise is at least still supported.
03:25:48 <Sgeo_> libnih-dbus1 : Depends: libnih1 (= 1.0.3-1ubuntu1) but 1.0.2-1ubuntu2 is installed
03:26:24 <Sgeo_> Erm, I may have attempted to install fluidsynth... but it doesn't seem like fluidsynth attempted to install libnih-dbus1
03:26:29 <pikhq> You cancelled a Natty install halfway through, didn't you?
03:27:07 <pikhq> Two choices. Each time this thing comes up go through http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main and look for the *appropriate* package version for your distro.
03:27:21 <pikhq> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/libn/libnih/libnih-dbus1_1.0.2-1ubuntu2_i386.deb in this case
03:27:31 <pikhq> Or, switch your sources to Natty and finish that upgrade. Use dist-upgrade.
03:28:19 <Sgeo_> Wait, i386? instead of amd64?
03:28:44 <pikhq> You are not running a 64-bit kernel.
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03:29:32 <kmc> you should fix that someday
03:29:39 <kmc> better performance, better security
03:30:04 <elliott> what kind of security we talkin here
03:30:04 <Sgeo_> sudo apt-get -f install isn't complaining anymore
03:30:34 <Sgeo_> erm, may I install fluidsynth first?
03:30:47 <pikhq> I'd say "no", but it makes no real difference TBH.
03:31:24 <Sgeo_> I don't exactly have the time tonight to start getting on the path to computer peace
03:31:36 <kmc> <div id="llIIlIlIIlI" class="llIll" data-i="llIIlIlIIll" style="padding-top:0px"><div id="llIIlIlIIlI" class="lllII"><span>Current Session</span><span id="llIIlIlIlII" class="lIIIllIIl"></span></div></div>
03:31:41 <pikhq> You are probably going to need to reboot a few times during this process.
03:31:48 <pikhq> There's been a lot of changes between 2.6.35 and 3.8
03:32:42 <kmc> elliott: 64-bit distros tend to have more stuff compiled as position independent code (because the performance cost is a lot lower than 32-bit) which makes them harder to exploit
03:32:51 <Sgeo_> pikhq, how can I thank you enough?
03:33:03 <pikhq> Sgeo_: If we meet in person buy me a beer?
03:33:31 <kmc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#pie
03:33:45 <kmc> "PIE on x86_64 does not have the same penalties, and will eventually be made the default, but more testing is required" ok so i don't know if it's actually a thing or just a theoretical thing
03:33:52 <elliott> so does anyone know why my browser freezes when i load certain pages (predictably)
03:33:57 <kmc> hacked by chinese
03:33:58 <elliott> maybe something to do with js
03:34:08 <elliott> regardless of number of tabs you shit
03:34:12 <mnoqy> close tabs and disable js
03:34:23 <Sgeo_> Apparently fluidsynth wants to talk to Jack :/
03:34:42 <kmc> itt mnoqy is a shit?
03:35:12 <Bike> i feel so ancient with my i386
03:35:21 <elliott> i've baptised him. mnoqy, officially a Shit for life
03:35:25 <elliott> will go to shit heaven/shit hell
03:35:36 <elliott> Bike: is it actually a 386
03:35:43 <Sgeo_> How to tell what audio driver I use?
03:35:48 <Bike> haha no but that'd be great, it's an Atom
03:36:11 <pikhq> And apparently an old Atom.
03:36:21 <pikhq> Current Atoms are x86_64.
03:36:49 <elliott> anyway kmc's new browser will fix it
03:36:56 <elliott> it's kmc's even though it's actualy mozilla's and he might not even work on it
03:36:57 <pikhq> Probably has something to do with how 8 gigs of RAM is $50 or so.
03:39:31 * kmc imagines using 8 GB of RAM on a 32-bit Atom netbook with PAE
03:40:20 <Bike> yeah this is my custom setup *dusts collar* it's vintage, from '09, but i spiced it up a bit *opens curtain, revealing closet of RAID and external RAM*
03:41:26 <kmc> i should get a new rubik's cube
03:41:34 <pikhq> Did any 32-bit Atoms support PAE?
03:41:47 <elliott> customise the rubik's cube build online
03:42:15 <elliott> get a "premium" model based on LEDs with a shuffle button
03:42:33 <kmc> *starts kickstarter for a pretentious 'minimalist' rubiks cube*
03:42:42 <kmc> actually I do have one that's all black
03:42:45 <elliott> rubik's cube where all the colours are actually the same
03:42:47 <kmc> zen rubik's cube
03:42:53 <kmc> it's p. awesome
03:42:58 <elliott> i'm quitting society, laters
03:44:51 -!- tswett has set topic: We drank all the throwing wine | Goal for 2013: hthiest channel of the network? | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | I vote TYHJÄ..
03:45:01 <tswett> Good luck, have fun, convert and copy?
03:46:38 <kmc> we would have also accepted 'delete current line'
03:47:22 <kmc> or 'don't die'
03:48:02 <pikhq> Apparently all Atoms support PAE
03:49:16 <kmc> yeah you can't call yourself i686 if you don't support the PAE page table format, really
03:49:24 <kmc> and you want it anyway for NX
03:49:34 <kmc> but do they actually support a 36-bit physical address bus
03:49:53 <pikhq> The Pentium Pro didn't do PAE
03:50:07 <kmc> i thought they introduced PAE with the Pentium Pro
03:50:16 <kmc> no google i don't want paella
03:50:34 <kmc> wp says "First implemented in the Intel Pentium Pro in 1995"
03:50:48 <kmc> ah but AMD extended it to 52 bits and added NX
03:50:49 <kmc> much later
03:51:35 <pikhq> One wonders why it was added in 1995.
03:51:46 <pikhq> Surely there wasn't much of a demand.
03:52:20 <kmc> i had this Pentium Pro box from 1995 that was the size of a mini-fridge
03:52:30 <kmc> four CPUs (separate sockets of course), 1 GB of RAM on several mobo-size boards
03:52:50 <kmc> I think Intel gave it to my university as a demo machine
03:53:05 <kmc> (it had Intel branding on the chassis)
03:53:23 <pikhq> And now my cell phone is competitive.
03:53:52 <pikhq> Actually, probably kicks the shit out of it just cause the CPU's clocked a lot faster.
03:53:58 <pikhq> A mere two cores, but eh.
03:54:13 <kmc> also probably has fancy SIMD stuff, better FPU, etc
03:54:37 <pikhq> Definitely a better GPU.
03:54:41 <kmc> a lot more cache
03:54:51 <kmc> more registers
03:55:42 <pikhq> Maybe not a better network link.
03:55:52 <kmc> i don't remember if it had 100 megabit ethernet
03:56:05 <pikhq> Yeah. It's *possible* then but it would've been pricy.
03:56:57 <kmc> of course I didn't take posession of this machine until like 2005, when it was beyond obsolete
03:57:18 <kmc> in fact it wasn't the first SMP machine I owned, although it was the first >2 core machine
03:57:39 <pikhq> I'm currently using my first SMP machine.
03:57:40 <kmc> I built a dual-socket Opteron workstation in 2004 which I was pretty psyched about
03:58:15 <Sgeo_> kmc, I used a 2000 machine up until 2007 or so
03:58:30 <pikhq> Though I'm trying *really hard* to convince myself that no, I don't need to buy a truly fucking insane system.
03:59:04 <kmc> in 2011 i built a 48 core machine with 128 GB of RAM, but that wasn't for me :/
03:59:39 <pikhq> "Linux? Windows? Mac OS? I run 'em all! Every version!"
04:00:09 <kmc> oh yeah and then one of the 16 sticks of RAM went bad and I had to figure out which one
04:00:20 <shachaf> kmc: did you binary search
04:00:23 <Sgeo_> Binary search I assu... dammit
04:00:23 <pikhq> I don't envy you that memtest86 run.
04:00:42 <kmc> shachaf: more or less
04:00:54 <shachaf> Trying out just one stick is like playing the lottery.
04:00:57 <kmc> i didn't run memtest, just ran a kernel compile for a few minutes to see if it crashed
04:00:59 <Sgeo_> I flat out don't recognize it
04:01:03 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. Reminds me. I've got a bad *slot* on my motherboard.
04:01:11 <Sgeo_> Despite clearly having named it in a way that indicates I liked it once
04:01:18 <pikhq> That was fun finding out.
04:01:28 <pikhq> Needless to say, it's empty.
04:01:44 <pikhq> But yeah. Any stick shoved into it will fail, but only in that slot.
04:02:30 <kmc> i hope the stick doesn't fail permanently?
04:02:37 * Sgeo_ is actually consdering making his PC that he's going to build (one of these days) 16GB RAM so he can run both Linux and Windows
04:02:54 <pikhq> It was as though some address lines weren't connecting or something.
04:03:03 <pikhq> Sgeo_: That's only like $75-$100 worth of RAM.
04:03:08 <shachaf> kmc: now that would be a sticky situation!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:03:17 <kmc> pikhq: did you fill up memory with a known pattern to see which ones? :D
04:03:28 <kmc> i wish I had more than 8 GB in this laptop
04:03:31 <kmc> unfortunately, not-upgradable
04:03:39 <pikhq> kmc: I used memtest86.
04:03:51 <kmc> shachaf: indeed
04:03:56 <pikhq> I wish I had more than 2G in this laptop.
04:04:07 <shachaf> today kmc learned how to italics
04:04:07 <pikhq> But then, I got it for free and I use it as a mosh box.
04:04:44 <kmc> i sure did
04:05:03 <kmc> i sure did
04:05:10 <kmc> it shows up underline on my terminal though
04:05:13 <kmc> whats ^O do
04:05:23 <shachaf> turns off all the other things
04:05:34 <Sgeo_> For me it seems to reset the rest of the line, incl. the redness of being hilighted
04:05:50 <kmc> band name: sex daemon
04:06:27 <shachaf> have you ever written a program to generate band names
04:06:32 <HackEgo> 185) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 258) <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!! \ 645) <itidus20> if only alonzo church wo
04:06:46 <shachaf> Professional Octopus of the World
04:07:47 <kmc> the radness of being hilighted
04:08:16 <shachaf> echo $'furry*!video_game\t20' | nc zzo38computer.org 70 | grep '^i\w' | cut -c 2-
04:08:22 <kmc> the unbearable radness of being
04:08:42 <kmc> shachaf: that is like the shadyurl.com of command lines
04:09:31 <kmc> Nearly Impossible Computer Nightmare
04:09:41 <Sgeo_> What is on port 70 of zzo38's computer?
04:09:43 <kmc> i think i have that game it's called linux (burn)
04:09:45 <kmc> Sgeo_: gopher
04:09:55 <Bike> rubber midget fortress
04:09:56 <kmc> Nihilistic Sudoku DX
04:10:12 <kmc> you can change '20' to get more I guess
04:10:14 <Bike> Incomprehensible VHS Tournament
04:10:21 <kmc> Catch the Tank Starring Mickey Mouse
04:10:22 <shachaf> Hmm, curl has gopher support.
04:10:26 <shachaf> Can you port that command line to curl?
04:13:22 <kmc> curl -s gopher://zzo38computer.org/$' furry*!video_game\t100' | grep '^i\w' | cut -c 2-
04:13:25 <kmc> i don't know why the space in the url
04:13:34 <kmc> Error: Category Theory Inferno
04:14:01 <kmc> Scooby Doo and the Circus of the Third Reich
04:15:21 <kmc> Alcoholic Trailer Park Commander
04:15:41 <kmc> Chinese Mushroom Marines
04:17:40 <kmc> Hardcore Bong Strike Force
04:19:13 <kmc> Duke Nukem: Mahjong Rampage
04:22:59 <Bike> wow what the hell is otolaryngology
04:24:14 <shachaf> Heavy Metal Vegetarian in the Dark
04:24:41 <shachaf> Revenge of the Censorship Yoga
04:45:29 <shachaf> 21:44 <AfC> Clint: so, nice to see an OpenPGP implementation. Calling out to gpg{,me} is a pain
04:55:13 <shachaf> 21:55 <cmccann> shachaf: writing in Haskell lets you use type safety to ensure that all the security holes you create a subtle instead of obvious.
04:56:15 <kmc> sounds about right
04:57:56 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
04:58:18 -!- Bike has joined.
05:09:18 <Sgeo_> Ferrari is the Lamborghini of letter writing.
05:10:51 <Sgeo_> http://fox2now.com/2013/05/22/cursive-writing-winner/
05:10:57 <Sgeo_> http://www.fark.com/comments/7762571/Teen-wins-contest-by-producing-blandest-most-sterile-cursive-writing-imaginable
05:12:24 <shachaf> Her right stuff shows that the fountain pen is still a foundational skill needed in modern times.
05:17:14 <kmc> the last time I used cursive for anything other than my signature was probably on one of the college admissions tests where they make you copy out in cursive a paragraph about how you didn't cheat
05:17:52 <shachaf> I copied that paragraph out in non-cursive.
05:18:13 <kmc> i guess this is why i have a college degree and shachaf doesn't?
05:18:39 <shachaf> 1D1AD MUSICAL SYMBOL COMBINING SNAP PIZZICATO [𝆭]
05:19:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:19:14 <shachaf> Hmm, there are some good musical symbols.
05:19:15 <shachaf> 1D1B3 MUSICAL SYMBOL WITH FINGERNAILS [𝆳]
05:19:20 <kmc> i think I remember my SAT scores but fuck if I can remember my ACT score
05:19:32 <pikhq> Wow, she's *literally* writing straight Palmer.
05:19:43 <pikhq> That is the most sterile cursive writing imaginable.
05:19:57 <coppro> although, strictly, this is not actually serendipity
05:19:58 <kmc> straight palmer OGs in da hood
05:20:08 <coppro> because it was not beneficial or happy
05:20:11 <shachaf> I wonder what happens if you write that you promise that you will cheat, rather than that you won't.
05:20:21 <shachaf> Do people read it? Poor people.
05:20:24 <coppro> serendipity is a wonderful word
05:20:33 <pikhq> C'mon, if you're gonna spend that much effort practicing cursive, at least learn something like Spencerian.
05:20:43 <kmc> elian script
05:21:43 <shachaf> kmc: should i get a college degree
05:21:50 <shachaf> would i be a better person :'(
05:22:37 <coppro> do you currently live with your parents?
05:24:14 <coppro> do you know what your strengths and weaknesses are?
05:24:44 * pikhq reaaaaly needs to move out
05:26:03 <pikhq> Such is dropping out of college once.
05:26:27 <kmc> shachaf: hm, trying to remember what I said before
05:26:30 <kmc> must be consistent you know!
05:29:21 -!- Bike has joined.
05:30:06 <kmc> well if you're having trouble finding a job without the degree, that would be one reason
05:30:19 <coppro> I had to write a short biography about myself. that was weird
05:30:35 <kmc> job prospects are not the only or even main reason I'm glad I went to college, but I'm not sure if the others translate
05:30:40 <coppro> coppro had to write a short biography about himself
05:30:49 <kmc> like it must be very different starting at 22 (?) rather than 16 - 18
05:30:49 <coppro> reasons I'm happy I went to university:
05:30:58 <coppro> a) I'm at one of the best schools for the areas I enjoy
05:31:13 <pikhq> Being *maybe* halfway through at the age of 23 kinda sucks.
05:31:16 <coppro> b) The people here are pretty generally damn awesome
05:32:01 <coppro> c) I enjoy student politics, or at least the part of it where I get the administration to do things
05:32:17 <coppro> d) As a corollary to c, I have reason to believe I'm pretty employable
05:32:28 <shachaf> kmc: someone told me i should go to graduate school should i do that
05:32:41 <kmc> can you go without undergrad?
05:32:47 <kmc> almost all of the grad students I know hate it
05:32:49 <Bike> if you're a freeeeeak
05:33:03 <coppro> very unlikely you'll get into grad school without at least some undergrad degree
05:33:08 <kmc> there is some selection bias
05:33:11 * pikhq is increasingly considering "fuck it, let's just get a job"
05:33:26 <Bike> it's my understanding that grad studenting is the worst job ever, so of course i'm planning on it
05:33:39 <coppro> pikhq: what program are you in?
05:33:42 <kmc> pikhq: yeah, I expect by age 23 and halfway through college, you pretty much have the social experience of it
05:34:01 <coppro> pikhq: I vote for fuck it
05:34:10 <coppro> experience is more important
05:34:13 <kmc> maybe you can try to get a job without formally dropping out
05:34:22 <kmc> a lot of schools will let you do a leave of absence or whatever
05:34:26 <pikhq> I've been in college since 18. Dropped out once. Been depressed for pretty much of that time.
05:34:38 <kmc> or get an internship and then see
05:34:50 <kmc> do you have a good friend group in college?
05:34:57 <pikhq> coppro: Actually, much of high school too.
05:35:01 <pikhq> kmc: Not *really*.
05:35:07 <coppro> fuck I hate depression
05:35:08 * kmc really misses living with a lot of incredibly smart interesting people, and the serendipitous interactions that would occur because of it
05:35:17 <coppro> (I'm not depressed but I have been quite close to people who have/are)
05:35:19 <pikhq> kmc: I did at my first college.
05:35:23 <pikhq> And I still keep in touch with them.
05:35:38 <pikhq> One of them I'd met online when I was 10 though, so...
05:35:50 <coppro> I can't wait for cumc this year
05:36:54 <pikhq> And it's not like as though I don't have marketable skills. I dare say I know my shit.
05:38:19 * coppro needs to remember to request a letter of reference from the president at some point
05:38:43 <Bike> "hi i'm the guy who's been yelling at you for students for years. plz to recommend"
05:39:07 <Bike> when i was regularly in school the "older" (not really that old) people were my favorites
05:39:21 <Bike> it's nice having someone in your CS program who actually knows how to linux or whatever
05:40:27 <Bike> the cost of having a sixty year old guy in your anthro 101 class is worth it i feel
05:42:09 <kmc> Kids These Days don't know how to linux?
05:42:27 <pikhq> Strange. I've Linuxed for over a decade now.
05:42:37 <shachaf> i've never linuxed is it good
05:42:38 <coppro> I'm not at a decade, but getting there
05:42:53 <Bike> not if they're freshmen who are learning to program, no
05:42:55 <pikhq> And rather well too.
05:43:05 <pikhq> I think I compiled my first kernel when I was 12?
05:43:14 <Bike> plus there's a difference between me (can look at man pages) and you (that)
05:43:52 <coppro> that the student-run servers of the Computer Science Club typically have higher uptime percentage than many university servers
05:46:25 <Bike> i wonder if i should feel inadequate about not learning VAX assembly at age 3 or w/e
05:46:34 <kmc> coppro: yeah it was that way for us too
05:46:48 <pikhq> Eh, I first touched x86 asm when I was like 16.
05:46:49 <kmc> and yeah I think the skill distribution going into intro CS is pretty strongly bimodal
05:46:56 <kmc> which is a real challenge for teaching it
05:46:59 <pikhq> Yeah, it really is.
05:47:28 <Bike> i tried to skip the intro programming class but i fucked up the simple task i was supposed to do to show I could program. i felt really bad about it
05:47:30 <kmc> i took an x86 asm class (real mode!!) when I was 15 or 16
05:47:30 <pikhq> You've got people who either barely know anything about the subject, and people who could teach a decent chunk of the courses.
05:47:51 <Bike> so i guess i was just slightly right of the lower peak
05:48:17 <kmc> and a good chunk of the highly skilled people are... how to put it... poorly socialized
05:48:37 <kmc> which can make things even more unpleasant for the people who don't know as much
05:49:03 <Bike> there was one guy who was homeschooled and... well i shouldn't whine too much
05:49:22 <pikhq> Yeah, you thank god for the guys who showered this week.
05:49:58 <kmc> and profs have little interest in teaching, let alone in the tricky social engineering to get students to play nice together
05:50:02 <Bike> i'm pretty sure he was missing some shots
05:50:33 <kmc> i liked Hacker School's short list of social rules: https://www.hackerschool.com/manual#sub-sec-social-rules
05:50:53 <kmc> i've definitely done all of these things...
05:51:02 <Bike> my favorite prof was someone who was teaching for like the first time ever, was on the fence about believing Turing re: halting, and taught stuff I wasn't really interested in. school is weird
05:51:30 <kmc> some of our intro courses were taught by lecture staff who aren't professors, and they honestly maybe put more care into it
05:51:34 <kmc> although some of the profs were quite good as well
05:51:36 <kmc> but many were not
05:51:48 <Bike> kmc: this is beautiful
05:52:02 <Bike> "well actually" is my least favorite thing after "except"
05:52:37 <Bike> yesterday someone i know was talking about failing a math class and another guy felt the need to correct affect/effect
05:53:19 <pikhq> That effects an uncomfortable situation.
05:53:21 <kmc> we had a math student who was infamous for never showering. eventually the professor complained and he started showering before that one class
05:53:53 <kmc> except actually the prof complained to the RA of the house where he officially lived but never actually set foot
05:54:00 <Bike> pikhq: the first guy said "fuck you not in the mood" and quit. uncomfortableness: destroyed!!
05:54:15 <kmc> (being the sort of person who prefers to pass out on the nearest common area sofa after a 24 hour math binge)
05:54:36 <kmc> so the RA spent about 2 weeks looking for the mysterious phantom smelly maths student
05:55:01 <kmc> actually you can watch a short film about his life here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw8UmlF-Msw made by his u chicago grad student colleagues, who seem to have come to more or less the same impressions that we did in undergrad
05:55:21 <Bike> did he grow up to be erdõs
05:55:27 <Bike> wrong diacritic
05:55:37 <Bike> ő. they look so damn similar.
05:55:54 <kmc> also after showering we would make him write the current date on his leg so we would know
05:56:29 <kmc> oh, huh, õ actually looks like two diagonal lines on my terminal, but that's just lack of resolution in rendering the tilde
05:59:32 <kmc> the incident at 4:31 is apparently based on a true story
06:00:21 <Bike> this is p. fantastic
06:00:58 <Bike> he'd better be doing something cool in that notebook
06:01:50 * pikhq shall probably seek permanent employment this summer, then...
06:01:58 <kmc> whereabouts?
06:02:09 <pikhq> Presently I'm in Colorado Springs, CO.
06:02:40 <pikhq> Though in a life position where I could sanely go *just about* anywhere.
06:05:34 <shachaf> pikhq: imo san francisco hth
06:05:48 <Bike> nice if you google this guy you get a bunch of ridiculous stuff (also an actual paper)
06:11:14 <kmc> one time he was walking across campus to do laundry, carrying a big bag of awful smelling clothes, and decided to stop by the library to take four consecutive five-hour math exams
06:11:29 <kmc> stayed in the library past closing time, was woken up by the cleaning staff the next morning who were very alarmed
06:12:17 <kmc> they were concerned because he'd been making 'satanic drawings' on his papers and also the walls (these were actually topological diagrams)
06:12:21 <pikhq> I've also pretty solidly determined that, fuck what my family says, I'm moving in with my girlfriend. So.
06:12:22 <Bike> i take it he had "a reputation"
06:13:16 <kmc> pikhq: would the two of you move together, if you got a job elsewhere?
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06:13:37 <pikhq> kmc: Pretty sure that's the case.
06:13:56 <pikhq> Particularly seeing as she's currently out of work and looking to move. :P
06:14:17 <shachaf> to san francisco "the place to be"
06:14:22 <pikhq> (and we don't currently live in the same *state*, so...)
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06:14:32 <kmc> it is indeed the place to be
06:14:34 <kmc> but hella expensive
06:14:54 * Bike reflects on being in more than one irc channel with a "place to be" that doesn't actually have most people from the channel in it
06:15:06 <kmc> pretty soon SF will be 100% either software jerkoffs like myself or homeless crack addicts
06:15:09 <kmc> nobody else
06:15:18 <kmc> 'awesome society imo'
06:15:23 <shachaf> Bike: The place to be is wherever I am. hth
06:15:26 <Bike> you need to pioneer homeless crack software addict
06:15:29 <shachaf> That's the actual definition.
06:16:02 <pikhq> Bike: Sounds similar to Erdős, coder version.
06:16:02 <kmc> Bike: what are the places to be of the other IRC channels?
06:16:11 <kmc> gothenburg?
06:16:27 <kmc> Portland OR?
06:16:30 <Bike> the oregon one yeah
06:16:44 <Bike> i don't know anybody who lives in maine
06:17:05 <kmc> (Portland ME is pretty insignificant on a national scale, but is near Boston so comes up fairly often)
06:17:27 <Bike> i live just north of it and we've met to see anime in theaters and dick around at Powell's, occasionally
06:17:36 <kmc> also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZt-pOc3moc
06:17:57 <shachaf> powell's is literally the best thing?
06:18:05 <Bike> i should go see if they've gotten any Gibson
06:18:10 <kmc> and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPKe9OfWs-M
06:18:24 <Bike> except i don't have any money so i'd have to like steal it, except that if you steal from powell's you're struck by lightning
06:18:31 <kmc> that seems correct
06:18:57 <shachaf> don't steal from powell's Bike :'(
06:19:09 <shachaf> better to steal candy from babies or something
06:19:15 <shachaf> candy is unhealthy for them anyway
06:19:17 <Bike> yeah this is basically portland right here
06:20:12 <Bike> "I gave up clowning years ago!" "Well in Portland, you don't have to."
06:23:01 <myname> i hyperljnk all the time! i'd like to confirm that hyperlinking is in no way harmful to your health!
06:24:27 <pikhq> Hyperlinking is most beneficial to health.
06:25:00 <pikhq> Evidence: BBSes are dead.
06:25:17 <pikhq> Can't explain that, atheists.
06:27:57 <kmc> Bike: it's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portlandia_(TV_series)
06:28:16 <Bike> that show is painful to watch (not from inaccuracy)
06:29:40 <Bike> a friend who flew in from chicago was like "how do you have so many rug stores"
06:30:10 <Bike> we were eating at a vietnamese place and there were multiple rug stores visible from the window
06:30:21 <kmc> was it in the rug district
06:30:43 <Bike> "what the hell is a design store and how do you have more than three of them"
06:31:21 <kmc> i like the lighting store district in Manhattan
06:31:25 <kmc> 'very bright'
06:31:31 <shachaf> do they sell lightning rods
06:31:45 <kmc> it's near the restaurant supply store district
06:31:49 <shachaf> did you read the story by mark twain
06:33:02 <shachaf> it's a good story and it's short and you should read it if you haven't
06:33:26 <shachaf> http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=TwaPoli.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1
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06:34:50 <Bike> seething political economy ideas.
06:55:38 <pikhq> There's something surreal about knowing you can actually run a web server from an Apple II.
07:02:39 <pikhq> Of course, a minimal web server is really fairly simple.
07:03:16 <pikhq> If you don't mind being hilariously stupid and only hosting a single file, "nc -l -p 80 -c 'cat foo.html'" will work.
07:12:31 <pikhq> I... could write a Brainfuck web server.
07:12:32 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxCKc4v9nwA#t=4m35s
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13:32:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8629
13:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: humble bundle continues to sell out, abandons 'bundle' aspect of operation
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14:16:13 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: 'tis sad.
14:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it's not quite as bad as the THQ Desperation Bundle
14:17:38 <boily> the what? I'm trying to forget that horrendous mistake.
14:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> it was a horrendous mistake that let me get saints row the third for like 5 pounds
14:18:40 <boily> (I'm feeling vitriolic today. my humours are being imbalanced by Montréal's drinking water problem.)
14:22:58 <boily> they're fine, I think, except for enjoying salmiakki.
14:23:14 <boily> I thinkg my opinion will be fixed once I have smelled an open can of surströmming.
14:50:49 <boily> why yes, yes I do suck.
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16:18:21 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: humble bundle continues to sell out, abandons 'bundle' aspect of operation // Soooo, with no Indie, and no Bundle, is it just Humble now?
16:18:49 <Phantom_Hoover> and only on the technicality that 'humble' is too subjective to be demonstrably inaccurate
16:19:40 <Gregor> But calling them ε just doesn't have the same ring.
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16:42:12 <nooodl> imo "epsilon" is a cool name for anything
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17:37:40 <kmc> what's wrong with Montréal's drinking water?
17:37:59 <Gregor> Alcohol content too low.
17:39:23 <boily> kmc: too much small live stuff floating around. http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/water-in-most-of-montreal-unsafe-to-drink-1.1291826
17:39:29 <boily> Gregor: if only it was just that...
17:40:23 <Gregor> Ironically, alcohol would solve that neatly.
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17:47:19 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> i have an uncle who lives in a bog // Scottish, ladies and gentlemen. Scottish.
17:48:18 <Gregor> Celtic, ladies and gentlemen. Celtic.
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20:32:00 <Taneb> I need something to doooooo
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20:33:20 <Taneb> I assume you mean the canyon in Arizona
20:33:30 <Taneb> Wow, it's beautiful
20:33:41 <Taneb> This has been really enlightening
20:34:34 <shachaf> Taneb: get elliott to give you your mekupelet
20:34:42 <boily> Taneb: you can take a peek at what I've been haskelling lately: http://hpaste.org/88426
20:34:50 <metasepia> Mekupelet () (English name: Chocolate Log) is a bar of thinly folded milk chocolate produced in Israel since 1935 by 'Elite' now a subdivision of the Strauss Group.
20:35:28 <boily> thorn c-cedilla o-tilde a-diaeresis u-diaeresis e-circumflex. I knew hebrew was hard to read but damn.
20:36:25 <shachaf> boily: your bot is racist against unicode
20:36:29 <elliott> boily: Empty `mappend` y is undefined
20:36:38 <Taneb> boily, I think your Tree type is a monad
20:36:48 <shachaf> boily isn't compiling with -Wall?
20:36:49 <boily> shachaf: my bot is gentle and good.
20:37:05 <shachaf> boily: plz add -Wall to your command line hth
20:37:06 <elliott> boily: as in you don't define it.
20:37:10 <elliott> as in you violate the laws.
20:37:37 <shachaf> uh oh the monoid police is going to get boily
20:37:45 <shachaf> why did you violate the laws boily
20:37:50 <shachaf> it would have been so easy not to
20:37:51 <kmc> this is what you get when you mess with us
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20:38:07 <boily> shachaf: don't care. they can't be more annoying than the SPVM.
20:38:52 <boily> aaaargh. why must I be -Walling... it was all good and pure before that...
20:39:03 <boily> now I'm stuck with the harsh reality of multiple warnings.
20:39:14 <Taneb> boily, Tree is definitely a Functor, and my intuition is that it goes all the way to MonadPlus, but I could be wrong
20:39:21 <shachaf> boily: Support Pizza Vector Machine?
20:39:26 <Taneb> Prefix is a Bifunctor
20:40:00 <Taneb> @unmtl WriterT [a] [] sym
20:40:18 <Taneb> Prefix is hence a monadplus
20:40:36 <Taneb> For some interpretations of it
20:40:41 <Taneb> Perhaps not the one you want
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20:42:33 <boily> Taneb: that is most definitely interesting. wanting it is irrelevant, I'm just curious how the instances will play out.
20:43:02 <boily> shachaf: Société de Police de la Ville de Montréal, but you were close.
20:43:43 <shachaf> boily: I thought you were Belgian.
20:43:58 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
20:44:12 <boily> shachaf: I'm definitely unconfirmed as Canadian.
20:44:33 <boily> I think Koen_ is belgian, iirc.
20:45:00 <shachaf> Who's Belgian in here, then?
20:45:10 <kmc> there's a town near LA called La Cañada
20:45:54 <boily> elliott: now passes -Wall: http://hpaste.org/88426
20:46:00 <kmc> most notable as the location of JPL
20:49:03 <boily> Taneb: I had an applicative instance some days ago, even a traversable one. they were useless, so I chopped them out.
20:49:57 <Taneb> Traversable is useful if you're also using lens
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20:51:00 * boily shudders at the thought
20:51:47 <Taneb> At least three lens contributors are in this channel right now
20:51:51 <Taneb> Even in this conversation
20:53:07 <Taneb> When did that happen?
20:53:27 <boily> where we at now? what's the haskell zeitgeist? we have conduits, lenses, comonads, all variations on functors, competing web frameworks...
20:53:52 <Taneb> boily, there's conduits, and there's pipes
20:54:01 <Taneb> And then there's half a dozen more lesser used ones
20:54:10 <coppro> Taneb: you should join ##CanadaPolitics
20:54:37 <boily> I'm feeling suicidal. let's join...
20:54:42 <shachaf> 13:32 <Taneb> I need something to doooooo
20:55:35 <boily> I'm... uhm... it feels... strange?
20:55:42 <Taneb> I'm gonna establish an elaborate lie
20:55:46 <boily> coppro, you are evil.
20:55:59 <boily> Taneb: I'd like to see that.
20:57:17 <shachaf> Taneb..............................................................
20:57:34 <Taneb> Well, if I said I was Canadian they would catch me out
20:57:43 <boily> Taneb: non mais tsé, chais pas, t'aurais pu te forcer un peu, non mais...
20:58:15 <Taneb> I shall instead pretend to be Nebraskan!
20:58:23 <boily> who is this channel current authority figure to pander to? I'd like to whack Taneb with great (but polite) force.
20:58:35 <boily> I may leave some blood, but in a manner to be easily cleaned.
20:58:53 <Taneb> I believe you want oerjan
20:59:35 <boily> well, it'll happen tomorrow. my day is done.
20:59:45 <boily> can someone lightly smack Taneb in my absence?
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21:01:03 <Taneb> @ask oerjan boily wants someone to lightly smack me. I believe you are the person to ask?
21:01:34 <shachaf> oerjan: hello from the distant past
21:04:01 <coppro> Taneb: you *are* canadian, right?
21:04:26 <coppro> for some reason I thought you was
21:04:36 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
21:05:10 <Taneb> `the hexham coincidence
21:05:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: the: not found
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21:06:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, help
21:06:16 <Taneb> My already fractured identity has been fractured further
21:06:45 <Taneb> I'm constructing a detailed backstory for essentially almost trolling ##CanadaPolitics
21:10:18 <Taneb> The identity is: a half-english Nebraskan who is writing a big essay-type thing about the domestic politics of various countries
21:10:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover knows all about faking identities for other channels
21:11:28 <shachaf> didn't you learn/teach anything when you were an acting student/teacher
21:11:39 <Taneb> shachaf, you should see the identity I've carefully constructed for one of my Tumblr blogs
21:12:03 <Taneb> It's some guy from Edinburgh's new town who now goes to Warwick university and who really doesn't like brainfuck derivatives
21:20:06 <kmc> does hexham have a new town
21:20:38 <Taneb> shachaf, I would totes move there
21:21:09 <kmc> stari grad hexham
21:21:12 <Taneb> I mean, there's the gaol and the abbey and the moot hall
21:21:32 <kmc> a gaol and an abbey, what more do you need
21:21:34 <Taneb> elliott, they're building something new over the road from me
21:21:43 <Taneb> kmc, the abbey isn't actually an abbey
21:21:51 <Taneb> And the gaol isn't actually a gaol
21:21:59 <kmc> well that clears things up
21:22:07 <Taneb> They're "just a big church" and a history museum respectively
21:22:27 <elliott> the famous hexham just a big church
21:23:16 <Taneb> coppro, ##CanadaPolitics is so.... friendly
21:23:20 <Taneb> it gives me the shivers
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22:20:44 <Koen_> @tell boily I'm French thank you very much!
22:37:33 <kmc> http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18olmrbegl21qjpg/k-bigpic.jpg
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23:37:07 <Sgeo_> Raspberry Pi is switching to Wayland
23:38:32 <kmc> what do you mean by that? is there one official distribution for rpi?
23:38:35 <kmc> i thought there were a number of them
23:40:53 <pikhq> Yeah, I thought that there wasn't a single official distro.
23:41:28 <copumpkin> poor teddy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYaTa_lOf4
23:41:36 <pikhq> I mean, it's not like it comes with an SD card or anything.
23:41:54 <kmc> kind of odd since it's supposed to be an educational tool
23:42:40 <pikhq> Similar to the ZX Spectrum or the BBC Micro, no?
23:42:49 <kmc> didn't those ship with BASIC interpreters at least?
23:43:04 <pikhq> So did the IBM PC. :)
23:44:42 <kmc> well I think hardware is probably the 3rd most important problem in educational tech, after #2 "software" and #1 "everything else"
23:44:56 <kmc> but I guess it's a fair strategy to create the hardware and expect others to do the software
23:45:35 <kmc> definitely the RPi is a cool product even if it's not an educational tool per se
23:45:56 <Lumpio-> I still haven't thought of a use for mine.
23:47:21 <kmc> OLPC put at least as much effort into software as hardware
23:47:45 <kmc> they had a lot of cool ideas about how kids can share what they create and can gradually learn how to contribute to development
23:47:55 <kmc> every app has a "edit source" button basically
23:48:01 <kmc> Lumpio-: uh, Cambridge MA?
23:48:26 <kmc> they still exist, I don't know why everyone thinks they died years ago
23:48:36 <kmc> they failed to totally achieve some very lofty goals
23:48:47 <kmc> but they have shipped millions of their laptops to children in dozens of countries
23:49:08 <Lumpio-> Did it magically improve their quality of life or did they figure out how to get facebook on it
23:51:45 <kmc> here's one study saying it's not that effective http://blogs.worldbank.org/impactevaluations/one-laptop-per-child-is-not-improving-reading-or-math-but-are-we-learning-enough-from-these-evaluati
23:51:49 <kmc> i don't know really
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00:32:54 <shachaf> did you know "awry" is pronounced like "a-wry" and not like "awe-ri"...........................
00:33:02 <shachaf> that makes it the worst word of all words
00:33:47 <Phantom_Hoover> same way everyone says eesoteric rather than essoteric
00:33:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh I say essoteric
00:34:09 <Bike> fuck you i don't do what you tell me *guitar*
00:34:30 <shachaf> are you telling me it's not pronounced 'z'......
00:36:00 <shachaf> Bike: where did you get the guitar from
00:36:09 <shachaf> have you considered a mandolin instead
00:36:29 <ion> The h in hesoteric is silent.
00:36:35 <shachaf> whoa dude Bike is twitterizing now
00:36:45 <shachaf> Bike: you should follow me hth
00:36:51 <Bike> the stalk thing's getting weird you know
00:36:59 <Bike> well "getting"
00:37:22 <shachaf> that person is beating me by an order of magnitude :'(
00:37:24 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid dice time wiki
00:37:35 <kmc> who is bike on twitter
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00:38:00 <shachaf> you'll surely find out by watching my "following" list
00:38:33 <shachaf> Oh, Bike is already following kmc.
00:38:48 <Bike> twitter says you're not following anybody.
00:39:25 <Bike> i mean, assuming you're @shachaf
00:39:25 <kmc> nope but I found Nathan von Doom
00:39:48 <Bike> i'm @mnxmnkmnd, mostly been complaining about darwin
00:39:55 <shachaf> i look at twitter.com/copumpkin almost every day!!
00:40:06 <shachaf> copumpkin is just that good hth
00:41:08 <shachaf> Bike: darwin more like darlose isntthatso
00:43:35 <ion> godWIN the discussion
00:43:51 <kmc> don't know
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00:44:06 <shachaf> is it an abbreviation for tqbfjotld
00:44:30 <kmc> @tqbf is one of the Matasano founders
00:44:47 <kmc> fuck I thought I put a ZWNJ at the start of that message
00:44:50 <kmc> lambdabot: eff you
00:44:54 <kmc> maybe mosh ate it or something
00:45:44 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:46:03 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:46:12 <shachaf> Yes, but I meant where his nick came from.
00:46:28 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:46:46 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
00:46:46 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
00:46:46 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
00:46:46 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
00:46:46 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
00:46:48 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
00:46:50 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
00:48:54 -!- augur has joined.
00:53:36 <shachaf> When people say "the password is hashed N000000 times" without clarifying I like to pretend they mean "for (i : Range(1, N000000)) { res = hash(password); }"
00:54:27 <pikhq> Clearly hash :: IO Hash
00:54:52 <shachaf> That was pseudo-C++, not pseudo-Haskell.
00:55:18 <coppro> obviously, it's not syntactically valid haskell
00:56:32 <shachaf> It's syntactically valid C++ but probably not good C++.
00:56:38 <shachaf> How would you do the Range thing in C++11?
00:56:57 <shachaf> I guess for (const auto &i : Range<int>(1, ...)) { ... }
00:57:23 <coppro> something like that, yeah
00:57:41 <kmc> do you need the type paramater? sometimes they can be inferred
00:58:07 <elliott> is it actually syntactically valid C++
00:58:36 <shachaf> Maybe if you specify the type on the left side.
00:58:49 <Bike> don't we all know what you meant anyway
00:59:08 <pikhq> shachaf: Surely if you omit the type on the left it infers int?
00:59:55 <coppro> you don't need const or & there
01:00:28 <coppro> for (auto i : Range<int>(1, ...)) { }
01:03:53 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
01:04:55 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beginning_Was_the_End
01:08:12 <Sgeo_> 'The book was influential on new wave band Devo, with the founding members noting the connection between its subject matter and the concept of "de-evolution" which is central to the band's message. Bassist/synth player/vocalist Gerald V. Casale claimed, "It's a better story than the Bible as far as DEVO's concerned."[20]'
01:08:39 <Sgeo_> ...does DEVO actually... believe it, or just consider it a fascinating fiction story?
01:09:09 <shachaf> elliott: You should go to Haskell eXchange 2013!
01:09:38 <elliott> i don't even know where that is
01:10:06 <Sgeo_> I may have confused DEVO with ... that band that is similar to the group that did I My Me Mine
01:10:30 <Bike> Sgeo_: i guess they're into "kitsch science fiction"
01:10:39 <Sgeo_> Polysics, which came after.... Devo...
01:10:43 <Sgeo_> Same Devo or different?
01:11:04 <shachaf> elliott: £75 for the first 25 tickets!
01:13:00 <elliott> i'm unsure as to the confusion here
01:14:27 <Bike> confusèd actually
01:15:13 <elliott> i never remember which way around the accent goes for the shakespearian type
01:15:25 -!- olsner has joined.
01:15:43 <Bike> i think it's a grave accent if you're being shake spear ian
01:17:42 <Sgeo_> "We'll work on encrypting the cookie value. There should be a solution that will work without troubling the 100 thousand or so "legacy" accounts."
01:18:07 <shachaf> Sgeo_: why are you making everyone in this channel miserable
01:18:17 <shachaf> i was perfectly happy before you started talking about tvtropes
01:18:37 <kmc> ok well it's not actually that interesting but if you want a range<int>(1, 10) for C++ then you can use this one i just wrote https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/5640703
01:18:42 <kmc> also this is probably in some library anywya
01:18:49 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, I wrote one too!
01:19:13 <olsner> probably the shortest way to write [1..10] in c++
01:19:32 <kmc> you could also implement syntax "1..10"_r
01:19:40 <kmc> i started on that but ran out of fucks
01:19:55 <kmc> void operator++() { ++cur_; }
01:19:56 <kmc> void operator++(int) { cur_--; }
01:19:57 <kmc> really shachaf
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01:20:06 <kmc> you bad man
01:20:13 <shachaf> i can't quite remember the motivation for that...............
01:20:20 <shachaf> was there motivation or is it a bug
01:20:33 <kmc> one is prefix ++ and the other is postfix ++ (don't remember which)
01:20:56 <shachaf> Probably the one without (int) is prefix because the code worked, I think?
01:21:42 <shachaf> My mnemonic is going to be that postfix is supposed to be less efficient and passing in an extra int argument is obviously less efficient.
01:22:13 <kmc> is the value of the int argument specified
01:22:21 <shachaf> But maybe it's passed on the stack.
01:23:22 <kmc> what a hack
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01:24:34 <shachaf> Does this code work for iter<unsigned int>(UINT_MIN, UINT_MAX)?
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01:25:03 <shachaf> I'm just going to leave that -- in there.
01:25:25 <shachaf> It can trip someone up if they ever make the mistake of trying to use my code.
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01:38:53 * kmc forks and fixes
01:38:58 <kmc> An elegant, modern ir.txt, done right
01:39:25 <shachaf> celebrates craftswhiteship?
01:39:29 <Bike> celebrates artisanship (!!!!!)
01:40:01 <kmc> wrt gendered language i actually have less of a problem with 'craftsmanship' because it's an abstract concept
01:40:04 <kmc> still not toally ideal
01:40:21 <shachaf> Bike: is that a kind of cheese
01:40:26 <kmc> i do have a problem with it being faddish and arguably meaningless
01:40:37 <Bike> shachaf: if only
01:40:53 <Bike> kmc: is it really "arguably"? how is it anything more than marketing
01:41:00 <kmc> describing programmers as craftsppl is at least more accurate than describing us as ninjas or painters
01:41:14 <shachaf> Yay, everyone's voting for my GHC proposal.
01:41:38 <shachaf> hey you know what's good, answer: prokofiev
01:41:55 <kmc> in fact "craft" is a pretty good compromise that admits the presence of aesthetic concerns while keeping the focus on practical utility
01:41:56 * Bike instantly gets "Dance of the Knights" playing in his head
01:43:10 <Bike> no wait it's poopsmith isn't it
01:43:47 <pikhq> He deals in Whatsit.
01:44:39 <Sgeo_> I don't know why I thought OpenPandora would be cheap
01:45:49 <Bike> i'd watch that opera
01:46:29 <Bike> it can be Alexander Nevsky but with bikes instead of horses. yes, hell yes
01:50:50 <kmc> shachaf: what's your GHC proposal
01:51:44 <kmc> omg congratulations!!
01:52:02 <Bike> maybe i should get "Battle of the Ice" stuck in my head instead of knights
01:52:32 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7633
01:53:42 <Bike> "It's a bit ad hoc, but probably a jolly useful feature. Nothing technically hard about implementing it. If anyone wants to have a go, I'm happy to advise" he's not actually british right
01:54:32 <kmc> are you telling me this man is not british http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg
01:55:03 <kmc> he looks like wallace (of & gromit)
01:55:11 <kmc> he was born in .za though
01:55:43 <kmc> i don't like Lemming's alternative proposal
01:55:44 <Sgeo_> I'm still trying to understand how lenses work
01:55:47 <kmc> {-# MINIMAL return AND (join OR (>>=)) #-}
01:55:48 <Bike> that's a crazy man
01:55:54 <Sgeo_> If you give a lens return or pure, what happens?
01:56:17 <elliott> kmc: i think some kind of and/or based thing could be good because that's how they're written in haddocks
01:56:29 <elliott> and ideally haddock should parse these and format like that
01:56:30 <kmc> seems needlessly complex. the original is just as expressive, it's just in DNF with simpler syntax
01:56:54 <kmc> obviously haddock should have a subroutine to generate minimal English descriptions of DNF formulæ!!!
01:56:57 <Sgeo_> (A OR B) AND (C OR D)
01:56:58 <elliott> right but if that form is what people write already and what we want our tools to display regardless, then you don't save much by doing it the simpler way
01:56:58 <shachaf> I don't like his syntax much either. I'm not sure that my original syntax is optimal, though.
01:57:09 <kmc> i'm sure it's not optimal shachaf ;)
01:57:10 <elliott> I don't like the concrete syntax of his proposal though of course
01:57:10 <kmc> few things are
01:57:23 <shachaf> kmc: i meant "optimal enough" hth
01:57:35 <kmc> elliott: obv it should be return ^ (join v (>>=))
01:57:37 <Bike> this sounds slightly bikesheddy
01:57:38 <Sgeo_> I guess that could be expressed
01:57:45 <kmc> Bike: 'slightly'
01:57:47 <elliott> kmc: return /\ (join \/ (>>=))
01:57:52 <elliott> kmc: return * (join + (>>=))
01:57:57 <Sgeo_> But that's verbose
01:58:05 <Sgeo_> I don't know if there are classes that would benefit
01:58:08 <elliott> {-# MINIMAL COMPLETE DEFINITION: return and either join or (>>=). #-}
01:58:13 <kmc> yeah you shuould draw an ascii art truth table
01:58:21 <kmc> shuould: word of 2013??
01:58:48 <kmc> [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A handcrafted IRC client]
01:58:53 <kmc> what does that even mean
01:59:01 <elliott> it celebrates craftsmanship
01:59:09 <elliott> has a little /celebrate command
01:59:22 <Sgeo_> Clearly it's hand-made. They rewrite the entire thing for each user.
01:59:48 <kmc> like do they think it means anything
01:59:49 <kmc> is it a joke
01:59:53 <kmc> i'm at a loss here people
02:00:09 <shachaf> I like it when people say "handpicked".
02:00:10 <Bike> Designed to be used easily and freely.
02:00:16 <elliott> kmc: it's like some kind of cutesy tongue in cheek bullshit
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02:00:21 <shachaf> Like "a handpicked collection of short stories" or something.
02:00:23 <elliott> which shows you're v. indie
02:00:26 <elliott> holy fucking shit Sgeo|kiwi
02:00:35 <Bike> ✔ No PhD required
02:01:04 <Sgeo_> I tried the slap function. Kiwi seems to indicate that I ACTIONed something'
02:01:05 <kmc> obviously they mean "not written in haskell"
02:01:21 <Bike> /set var_name new_value command to modify settings
02:01:22 <kmc> Sgeolkivich
02:01:31 <Sgeo|kiwi> * Sgeo|kiwi slaps elliott around a bit with a large trout
02:01:31 <Sgeo|kiwi> * Sgeo|kiwi slaps elliott around a bit with a large trout
02:01:41 <Bike> it's like it's really the 90s
02:01:43 <Sgeo_> oops, meant to paste once
02:01:48 <Sgeo_> Bike, but it never actually DID that
02:01:52 <kmc> the dream of the 90s is alive in kiwiirc
02:01:52 <Sgeo_> Kiwi is lying to me
02:02:04 <elliott> "sexy channel list" when i am world dictator programmers will be banned from calling things sexy. anything whatsoever. it is the burden you accept when becoming a programmer
02:02:11 <Sgeo_> I love it when my software lies to me!
02:02:15 <Bike> fuck you kmc i don't want it stuck in my head again
02:02:22 <olsner> elliott: celibate channel list?
02:02:23 <Bike> Sgeo_: well let's be fair, the trout thing is obnoxious as hell
02:02:42 <Sgeo_> But then why even pretend to support it?
02:02:50 <Bike> to make fun of you
02:04:04 <Sgeo_> Oh hey it's open-source
02:04:12 <Sgeo_> Let me go see if I can find any details about this
02:04:19 <Bike> about this hand craftedness
02:04:46 <shachaf> Bike: things stick in your head eaisly..........................
02:04:51 <kmc> they make their software by hand, not like those faceless corporations with their software machines
02:05:03 <Bike> shachaf: i get music stuck in my head really easily yeah
02:05:17 <Bike> kmc: i kind of want an irc client that was written by simulated annealing or something, now
02:05:24 <kmc> we decide what goes inside your head
02:05:48 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHCp2-YcBeU
02:06:17 <Bike> phosphene dream, heh
02:06:32 <kmc> they also released an EP named Phosgene Nightmare
02:06:55 <olsner> is that fertilizer or nerve gas?
02:07:16 <kmc> it's a chemical weapon, not technically nerve gas I think
02:07:38 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phosgene_poster_ww2.jpg
02:07:46 <Bike> now i want to listen to some classic fucked up shit
02:07:56 <Bike> time for some throbbing gristle i think
02:08:19 <Bike> kmc: dumbo's lookin' pretty kinky there
02:08:21 <kmc> "Toxic phosgene doses (greater than or equal to 30 ppm X min) inhaled into the terminal respiratory passages render the blood-air-barrier more permeable to blood plasma, which gradually collects in the lung."
02:08:24 <olsner> hmm, I think I am getting a bit of an "increased dopey feeling" from listening to this
02:08:28 <kmc> so basically you drown in your own blood
02:08:55 <shachaf> is that better or worse than drowning in someone else's blood
02:09:45 <Bike> haaaamburger laaaaady
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02:13:07 <elliott> kmc: imo your name is Keegan Miuaf Callister
02:13:38 <Bike> miuaf is the sound a high cat makes, imo
02:22:58 <kmc> shachaf: how do i get less bitter
02:24:14 <kmc> could help
02:24:22 <shachaf> do you mean about something specific
02:24:23 <kmc> but i get a lot of hugs as is
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02:26:55 <shachaf> who's more bitter, shachaf or kmc?
02:27:33 <kmc> well right now i'm bitter about getting fired from my web startup job, and the fact that either the stated reasons are bullshit, or they completely failed at communicating with me while i worked there
02:28:11 <kmc> these are people who I thought were friends and good people and now I'm so angry that I can't sleep properly and probably want to never talk to them again
02:28:46 <Sgeo_> Huh. afaict, gzip does in fact have an option for saying "This is uncompressed"
02:31:26 <olsner> shachaf: sounds like kmc is bittrer
02:33:11 <madbr> in that situation it's normal
02:33:19 <Bike> http://www.webvisionsevent.com/portland/session/build-your-brand-the-rock-star-way-y4p0/ i'm thinking i don't want to attend this
02:33:32 <Bike> http://www.webvisionsevent.com/slides/portland/pix/trammell.jpg
02:34:53 <kmc> i can't really understand this well enough to make fun of it
02:35:08 <Sgeo_> Gregor, fluidsynth is claiming chorium has invalid generators
02:35:20 <kmc> Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
02:35:57 * Sgeo_ wonders if Titanic is good
02:36:04 <kmc> i realize it's normal to be bitter in this situation, but i would still like to learn how to become less bitter over time
02:36:14 <Bike> wait until you forget about it?
02:36:29 <kmc> could be a while
02:37:46 <shachaf> i think you automatically become less angry about things unless you put effort into staying angry, most of the time
02:37:52 <kmc> but i am getting a new job and moving to a new city far away from here
02:37:55 <kmc> so that should help
02:38:02 <Gregor> <Sgeo_> Gregor, fluidsynth is claiming chorium has invalid generators // Yup.
02:38:12 <kmc> i would rather be able to stay friends with these people
02:38:22 <kmc> maybe it just ain't gonna happen, though
02:38:28 <Gregor> Sgeo_: You need to stop worrying and love the bomb.
02:38:35 <Bike> it does sound pretty crappy on their part
02:38:43 <Bike> but maybe you'll feel differently in a while, it's hard to say
02:38:48 <Sgeo_> Gregor, have you tried Titanic? Is it good? I'm getting it from the same site that has Chorium
02:38:53 <kmc> I mean, I think they just fired me because I was unhappy, which I was, and I'm glad to be done with working there because it wasn't a great place for me
02:39:17 <kmc> I wish they could admit that instead of coming up with a bunch of stuff about how I didn't work on enough / the right things, when that never came up in weekly meetings with my manager
02:39:38 <Sgeo_> Also, why do I need unfree software to piece together a multipart rar?
02:39:46 <kmc> because now I worry that I missed some super coded management signal regarding working on the wrong stuff
02:39:49 <Bike> isn't rar patented or something
02:40:03 <Sgeo_> Am I breaking the law by doing this? :/
02:40:04 <madbr> 7zip doesn't do it?
02:40:17 <Bike> kmc: from what you've said it seems unlikely that you missed a signal, and even if you did shouldn't they just talk to you instead of some weird coy sign language bullshit
02:40:21 <Sgeo_> Ark wanted unrar so I gave it unrar
02:41:17 <kmc> I was never super excited about the job, but it turns out that failure hurts like a motherfucker even if you weren't super excited about the thing you failed at
02:41:25 <Sgeo_> Hmm, Titanic seems nice
02:41:46 <Sgeo_> I kind of forgot what the SONiVOX version sounded like though
02:42:03 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/43a1ee041966efb2d37064e67501b2fd/tumblr_mjti81sBVi1s5k0eto1_500.jpg oh just in time for sgeo
02:42:23 <kmc> i haven't seen Titanic
02:42:34 * Sgeo_ is referring to the soundfont known as Titanic
02:42:36 <shachaf> kmc: i love super coded management signals
02:42:43 <madbr> failure hurts hard
02:42:52 <shachaf> by love i mean the opposite of that
02:42:55 <kmc> shachaf: do you have experience with this in the past?
02:42:58 <Bike> yeah i figured that but: i don't care because the movie is better probably
02:43:45 <shachaf> not exactly... well, it depends
02:44:22 <shachaf> the point was going to be that super coded signals aren't a great way to communicate
02:44:53 <kmc> and i'd be angry regardless, but if there is a coded signal I should learn to recognize it, for my own self preservation
02:45:08 <Sgeo_> I think I really like Titanic
02:45:18 <Sgeo_> Seems ... quiet though
02:46:09 <Sgeo_> fluidsynth is a bit slow to start with it though
02:47:18 <Gregor> <Sgeo_> Gregor, have you tried Titanic? Is it good? I'm getting it from the same site that has Chorium // Haven't heard of it.
02:47:37 <Sgeo_> http://artagap.free.fr/karpbo/index.htm
02:50:40 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I finally found a song that I don't like how Titanic handles
02:50:45 <Sgeo_> The fifth element theme
02:51:47 <Gregor> How does it compare to SONiVOX?
02:52:27 <Sgeo_> I like SONiVOX's fifth element better than Titanic's, but I think other than that they're similar or, with stheme5a I think I liked Titanic's much better
02:52:33 <kmc> paper clips are called "trombones" in french
02:52:50 <kmc> Un trombone « classique ».
02:53:24 <Sgeo_> wrlds1 sounds just fine in Titanic I ... think
02:53:28 <Bike> un trombone moderne
02:53:32 <Sgeo_> Would need to relisten to the SONiVOX though
02:53:53 <kmc> Dans l'environnement de Microsoft Office, la forme par défaut de l'assistant est un trombone anthropomorphique appelé Trombine (Clippit dans la version anglaise).
02:56:40 <Sgeo_> It does something... weird to oh_lamour.mid
02:57:44 <kmc> oh l'trombone
02:59:31 <Sgeo_> > fluidsynth: warning: Instrument not found on channel 14 [bank=8 prog=14], substituted [bank=0 prog=14]
02:59:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:62: parse error on input `='
02:59:42 <Sgeo_> (for some midi which I haven't tried with other soundfonts)
03:00:25 <madbr> why does it have bank changes
03:02:03 <Sgeo_> I don't know much about MIDI
03:02:13 <madbr> is it GS or XG or GM2 ?
03:02:28 <Sgeo_> I know I do have XG files..
03:02:34 <Sgeo_> Don't know how many though
03:02:46 <madbr> usually that's what those bank changes are used for
03:02:53 <kmc> i broke a glass just by putting ice cubes into it
03:03:01 <kmc> stupid thermal stress
03:03:58 <kmc> my friend broke a bunch of non-pyrex petri dishes this way :/
03:25:40 <shachaf> kmc: It's ^/. It's tilted the same direction as italics.
03:26:41 <Sgeo_> I do think Titanic is better than Chorium
03:27:03 <Sgeo_> Although maybe my (unknown in accuracy) assumption that they're by the same person may be unfounded
03:27:21 <Sgeo_> Which may be biasing my thoughts
03:30:00 <Sgeo_> Ok, quite different sounds on this one file
03:31:00 <Sgeo_> generaluser makes this instrument sound ... crisp. I'm not sure if that's good
03:33:26 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_x0wXsJq5I
03:33:34 <Sgeo_> (Some guy who likes Titanic)
03:34:16 <Bike> this is bad sgeo
03:34:42 <mnoqy> i demand only the highest in fine quality F-ZERO sound track
03:36:44 <kmc> the percussion is pretty meh
03:38:37 <madbr> needs velocity on the hihats
03:39:31 <mnoqy> i dont think thats the biggest problem
03:39:45 <Sgeo_> :/ I'm a bad judge of music
03:40:48 <HackEgo> mnoqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:41:36 <coppro> who here is /u/hexhammer?
03:58:21 <Sgeo_> ............I think it's missing instruments
03:58:28 <Sgeo_> worlds3 seemed to go silent at a weird place
03:58:34 <Sgeo_> fluidsynth did not give any warnings
04:00:51 <Sgeo_> This song that I never heard before sure sounds beautiful under Titanic
04:11:16 <tswett> http://i.imgur.com/jeq9T3x.png
04:12:33 <kmc> great hint
04:15:33 <tswett> This isn't related to anything, but I just tried typing my nick hastily, and then typing the result of that hastily, and so on for a while. The result:
04:15:37 <tswett> tstwett tswettt tswettt tdw2ett tse23tt tse23tt tse23tt tsee2tt tsee2tt tse32et tse23tew tse23tew tse23twe tese23twet tese23tet tese23tet teset23te teset3tet teste34te teste2423t test2423t test3t34t test3t34t test3r3rt test3r3t test3r3t test3er3t test33e3t tes3r3r3t tes3r3t tesr3rt tersett tereset tereset tersetg tserget tserget tsergert tserfertt tesdrfett tesdrfett tesdert tesrdet tesrdet tesrerf tesrefdeg tesrdefer tesredetr tesrdert tesrdert
04:15:37 <tswett> tsdert tsert test test test test test test test test test
04:15:55 <tswett> Five minutes of applause will suffice.
04:17:50 <mnoqy> why did you do that
04:18:16 <shachaf> mnoqy: "combo inspiration"
04:26:23 <Sgeo_> Hints that something is easy can be useful
04:26:39 <Sgeo_> Directs the mind on what sort of things to try first
04:26:56 <Sgeo_> Heck, even knowing that something is possible is useful
04:28:08 <Sgeo_> I wonder if math has examples of non-constructive proofs of the existence of a proof
04:29:12 <Sgeo_> I feel like there's some set of objects I should exclude from that, but not sure how to phrase it
04:29:36 <madbr> what, proof that a proof exists?
04:30:11 <Sgeo_> Yes. Preferably not of the variety of "proof of statement, therefore proof of proof of statement"...
04:30:12 <Bike> Sgeo_: i think löb's theorem might fuck that up?
04:30:50 <madbr> intuitively it sounds like proving that a proof exists is by definition a proof
04:32:13 <Bike> this is non-constructive, intuition don't work
04:32:50 <shachaf> proving that bicycles exist
04:32:54 <Sgeo_> I'm just going to observe, and hope my brain doesn't explode.
04:34:07 <Bike> Counterpoint: You've shown that a bike exists. Does it then follow that (multiple) bicycles exist?
04:34:34 <shachaf> In fact, everything exists.
04:35:28 <shachaf> zomg now i'm listening to peter and the wolf and so much nostalgia man help
04:35:41 <Bike> there is no help
04:47:34 <madbr> if you prove that there's a proof, you also prove that there is no proof to the contrary
04:47:46 <madbr> otherwise you'd have a contradiction
04:48:53 <madbr> so I think if you have a proof that there's a proof.... that's just a proof
04:49:25 <shachaf> what if you have a fix (proof that there's a)
04:51:36 <shachaf> oops i didn't finish golfing that
04:51:54 <Bike> Hm, so, how about a constructive example. How would one prove nonconstructively that a proof of the infinitude of primes exists.
04:53:26 <Bike> I guess you could suck and say "well it's in euclid right"
04:53:55 <mnoqy> just toss in a few double negation eliminations and you'll be fine
04:54:16 <elliott> mnoqy: well it's about the existence of a proof
04:54:55 <elliott> well i guess what you said makes sense if you don't interpret Bike's statement to mean "in a way that doesn't trivially give rise to a constructive proof of the same"
04:55:12 <Bike> an assholish proof, if you wil
04:55:17 <mnoqy> before you all said your things i was going to say
04:55:19 <mnoqy> "proof that there doesn't not exist a proof of the infinitude of primes? it could happen"
04:57:37 <Sgeo_> Oh geez there's more than just bitcoin and namecoin
04:57:37 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/ALTcointip/wiki/index
04:57:51 <Sgeo_> http://altcoins.com/
04:57:51 <mnoqy> there are tons of those things sgeo
04:58:20 <Sgeo_> Someone should give some to ais523
04:58:24 <kmc> http://buttcoin.org/when-the-mining-gets-tough-the-not-so-tough-get-forked
04:58:50 <mnoqy> zerocoin? that's a coin right
04:58:56 <mnoqy> ah yes i remember buttcoin
04:59:08 <kmc> zerocoin is an anonymization extension to Bitcoin
04:59:29 <kmc> the exchange rate between zerocoins and bitcoins is fixed, and they live in the same block chain
04:59:30 <mnoqy> oh litecoin that's another i was thinking of
05:01:35 <kmc> so it's not really like these others
05:16:47 <shachaf> oops i read youtube comments
05:18:18 <shachaf> Does "system engineering" have any actual meaning?
05:21:26 <shachaf> Talking about things that people do in jobs.
05:21:28 <shachaf> I think it just has several meanings which are sort of vaguely related.
05:26:40 <copumpkin> why engineer systems when you can system engineers?
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06:58:43 <pikhq> Nice thing about having all your stuff in FLAC: you can transcode to lossy formats easily.
06:58:52 <pikhq> Bad thing: you have to for portable devices.
07:00:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure "easily" is the right word there; it's probably not really any more *difficult* to transcode from one lossy format to another, just stupid.
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07:01:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Let's go with "sanely".
07:01:55 * Bike grumbles about audiophiles, continues listening to flv
07:02:20 <pikhq> Bike: I mostly use FLAC for archival's sake.
07:02:35 <pikhq> To be perfectly honest, a LAME-encoded MP3 is just fine quality-wise.
07:05:02 <fizzie> If you're sufficiently synaesthetic, can you store your music in animated GIFs?
07:06:49 <Deewiant> Even if you could the compression ratio would likely be atrocious
08:01:29 <shachaf> kmc: ^/, ^_, and ^7 all work for underlining
08:04:19 <kmc> i encode everything for portable devices with oggenc -q3, even if the source is mp3
08:04:47 <kmc> is original -> 320 kbps mp3 -> vorbis q3 noticably worse than original -> vorbis q3?
08:05:26 <elliott> it's noticeably worse because you know you transcoded and feel dirty
08:05:33 <kmc> no, because, you see
08:06:20 <Bike> my twitter feed is haiku about breaking iphones inbetween horrible news about massacres in qusayr. is this... the future...
08:06:45 <elliott> now i want a haiku about broken iphones *and* massacres
08:06:58 <kmc> lifes too short to care about replacing all my music originals with flac
08:06:59 <elliott> a 'relevant' haiku of the 'now'
08:07:12 <kmc> do the haiku end with "sent from my iphone"
08:07:19 <shachaf> kmc: you have, what, a few tb of music originals?
08:07:29 <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone
08:07:57 <Bike> oh nice you got the seasonal word in there
08:08:13 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone
08:08:19 <HackEgo> 1041) <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone
08:08:29 <mnoqy> how many haikus are there in quotedb nowadays
08:08:40 <HackEgo> 433) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 482) <monqy> i am out of all the fame loops <monqy> and the australien soap opera loops <monqy> so much loop / s omcuh \ 1041) <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone
08:08:40 <HackEgo> 72) <scarf> and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source <scarf> whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain <scarf> it's all falling into place \ 111) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you
08:08:49 <Bike> monqy's is better
08:09:01 <elliott> Bike: well my line was intended to be read having already seen 433
08:09:08 <elliott> if you haven't seen 433 before then i may have ruined the "impact" a bit
08:09:13 <Bike> we got some intertexuality going here
08:09:17 <shachaf> elliott: no i think it was better without it
08:09:22 <shachaf> now that i saw 433 "its kinda ruined"
08:09:23 <Bike> high concept haiku
08:09:35 <kmc> re playboy http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10212004
08:09:48 <Bike> "DIY Weapons In Syria - The Hell Cannon"
08:09:48 <kmc> shachaf: 3.8TB total, not very well de-duplicated
08:10:04 <kmc> there's a subset that i "actually listen to" which is ilke 150GB
08:10:05 <shachaf> how much of it without "beats"
08:10:22 <kmc> and then a subset of that transcoded to ogg vorbis is 17G
08:10:59 <mnoqy> shachaf always with the "beats" eh
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08:11:26 <HackEgo> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
08:11:43 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
08:11:43 <shachaf> UPPERCASE BECAUSE I'M EXCITED OERJAN IS FINALLY HERE
08:11:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: THANKYOU: not found
08:11:45 <mnoqy> always with the oerjan eh
08:11:59 <shachaf> always with the always with the eh eh
08:13:13 <oerjan> @tell taneb Remind me when we're on simultaneously hth
08:13:53 <shachaf> oerjan: the hth thing is getting kind of old hth
08:14:30 <oerjan> afaik iirc it was old even before it started fwiw hth
08:15:10 <elliott> oerjan: theres a guy who dont understand turing completeness on the wiki hope you help
08:15:37 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAFhkdGtHck structure aware hair reconstruction
08:16:42 <mnoqy> spherical harmonic illumination conditions
08:17:23 <mnoqy> mmm simulation-ready plants
08:17:44 <elliott> Yay our hair project is in it!
08:18:12 <mnoqy> animation-styling, handwriting-styling,
08:19:01 <mnoqy> lots of simulations
08:19:13 <mnoqy> now we can simulate: more fluids, and FINALLY snow
08:20:05 <mnoqy> maybe if you use their technique
08:20:10 <mnoqy> so this SIGGRAPH thing looks cool but it doesnt come close to SIGBOVIK, imo
08:20:18 <oerjan> <elliott> Bike: wait you thought it was about real objects? <-- for _that_ kind of destruction ask the taliban, or the chinese government hth
08:20:46 <Bike> are the red guards actually part of the government? also what about the saudis. also why am i awake help.
08:21:16 <lambdabot> Local time for Bike is Fri May 24 01:21:15 2013
08:21:20 <shachaf> have you considered calling your sleep advisor "elliott"
08:21:26 <oerjan> i am not sure what the saudis have destroyed lately
08:21:50 <Bike> they concreted eve's tomb back in 2009 or whatever
08:21:52 <elliott> nice storms in the related videos here
08:21:54 <Bike> too tired to remember specifics
08:22:14 <shachaf> from now on instead of pseudo-haiku you will write DOUBLE DACTYLS hth
08:22:18 <oerjan> and as for the chinese government, i just saw something about it in the newspaper, and it's current.
08:22:20 <Bike> gosh that was four years ago. i was so young
08:22:30 <elliott> i don't even remember how old Bike is
08:22:36 <elliott> bikes don't live long i think
08:22:50 <shachaf> how many Bike years are there in a normal person year
08:22:51 <elliott> how many is that in normal people years
08:23:02 <shachaf> elliott: are you stealing my phrasings
08:23:16 <Bike> it's like dog years in that there's no linear relation and it's generally a pointless concept
08:23:35 <shachaf> no matter how old you are, you're always 4 in Bike years
08:23:59 <mnoqy> hm does anyone take dog years seriously
08:24:10 <oerjan> wait i remember bladerunner. if bike only lives for 4 years he may be a replicant
08:24:12 <elliott> Bike: it looks like the tomb was sealed with concrete in 1975
08:24:16 <shachaf> dogs are kind of stupid though
08:24:35 <elliott> shachaf: the hth thing is getting kind of old hth
08:24:45 <elliott> why don't you try a monoids joke instead
08:26:37 <Bike> mnoqy: they're good for introducing little kids to old yeller and shit
08:27:02 <Bike> er the one with the intestines
08:27:02 <mnoqy> isnt that the one where they shoot the dog
08:27:05 <Bike> where the red fern grows.
08:27:17 <mnoqy> does the dog die in that one too
08:27:24 <mnoqy> intestines sound pleasant
08:27:34 <Bike> damn near traumatized my entire middle school class
08:27:41 <Bike> i musta been 4 at the time
08:27:47 <shachaf> hey Bike, write me a higgledy-piggledy DOUBLE DACTYL
08:27:59 <Bike> i am way too fucking tired to remember which foot that is
08:28:21 <mnoqy> arent middle schools old enough to stomach intestines
08:28:23 <Bike> are you indicating it with "higgledy piggledy"
08:28:26 <Bike> i fucking hate you
08:28:31 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_dactyl
08:28:41 <shachaf> it's a whole form of thing not just a meter
08:32:06 <oerjan> <elliott> let's say... 42 and if he's younger than that, god have mercy on my soul <-- since you remembered my age correctly i'll forgive you for calling me practically dead although you do get a hth
08:32:26 <shachaf> Bike: well are you writing it
08:32:29 <elliott> oerjan: a few lines later i wonder if you might be older
08:32:34 <elliott> i anticipate the swattings
08:32:55 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
08:33:47 <mnoqy> im checking the recent edits on the wiki
08:33:52 <mnoqy> im glad http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yo was spell corrected
08:33:52 <oerjan> also my favorite meter is pterodactyl hth
08:34:06 <mnoqy> a valuable article
08:34:06 <fizzie> Also I'm 30 as speculated hth
08:35:15 <oerjan> why does fizzie keep being just 30 when i've thought he was older for years
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08:35:46 <mnoqy> "derpcode is a tape-based esoteric programming language based on internet slang" o hey it's that guy but this looks like a new language??
08:35:47 <elliott> fizzie: when is your birthday
08:35:57 <mnoqy> "derpcode has five commands, although an expansion to achieve Turing-complete status is planned"
08:36:37 <mnoqy> why do people make all of these languages
08:36:48 <oerjan> elliott: my birthday is perfect in every way hth
08:37:10 <mnoqy> oerjan gets older, closer to death, "perfect"
08:37:48 <oerjan> mnoqy: it was a hint you doofus
08:38:04 <mnoqy> did i solve the riddle
08:38:47 <oerjan> i may have revealed my birthday on-channel previously, anyway. i'm not quite sure.
08:38:58 <shachaf> oerjan: what's your birthday
08:39:13 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
08:39:27 <FreeFull> You don't even need 5 commands to be turing complete
08:39:28 <shachaf> ("did u notice the americanism")
08:39:31 <elliott> oerjan: is it a perfect number both the day,monthe,
08:39:36 <mnoqy> I was fooled by this until I got to the end. I thought it sounded like a cool language! --(this comment by 124.189.147.51 at 01:37, 5 May 2013 UTC; please sign your comments with ~~~~)
08:39:41 <oerjan> elliott: ding ding ding
08:40:02 <oerjan> your pants are on fire
08:41:51 <shachaf> hey anyone writing DOUBLE DACTYLS about Bike years
08:42:02 <shachaf> i wrote one but it breaks the rules also it's pointless
08:42:07 <shachaf> so someone plz write a better one
08:42:15 <fizzie> elliott: It's sometime in April. (I've probably given it away somewhere in the logs already, though.)
08:43:31 <shachaf> higgledy-piggledy / bicycle chronographs: / pretty good instruments -- / right twice a day / most of the time, though, they're / off by a little bit; / but for their purposes / off is okay
08:43:35 <HackEgo> 2013-05-24.txt:08:43:07: <shachaf> `log fizzie's birthday
08:43:45 <shachaf> HackEgo: whoa dude, so meta....................
08:44:27 <oerjan> elliott: also hint, it's less than a week from agora's birthday
08:44:48 <oerjan> (that should settle the small ambiguity)
08:45:02 <shachaf> agora = 1/100th of a shekel right
08:47:37 <shachaf> higgledly piggledy / ørjan johansen thinks / monoids are easy, but / semigroups hard; / why he should be such a / fan of identities? / anyone's guess; he has / caught us off-guard
08:47:46 <shachaf> this meter is easy to write bad rhymes in when you get used to it
08:48:37 <elliott> oerjan: i am too tired to work it out, i am afraid
08:50:36 <oerjan> thus thwarted, my secret remains secure.
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08:57:54 <shachaf> mnoqy: i think someone's up to some mischief in #haskell
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08:59:32 <shachaf> hey fizzie op me so i can +v mnoqy
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08:59:56 * shachaf is procrastinating on things :'(
09:02:01 <shachaf> wow there are a lot of rules for DOUBLE DACTYLS
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10:44:27 <shachaf> hey you know what's a really good channel, answer: #haskell
10:45:27 <mnoqy> i particularly like the part where it's the worst thing in the world
10:54:45 <shachaf> oerjan: hey it was may 17 the other day
10:54:58 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: theres a guy who dont understand turing completeness on the wiki hope you help <-- i suspect he just doesn't understand zzo's specification, which is somewhat weak on telling that there actually are cells with values at each coordinate
10:55:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i slept through most of it hth
10:56:01 <oerjan> there were parades. as always.
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11:14:15 <ais523_> probably ontopic in a sideways way: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/1956/generate-the-longest-error-message-in-c
11:14:32 <ais523_> basically, it's a golf-like competition to generate long error messages from short C++ programs
11:16:40 <shachaf> I bet you could do something great with Haskell.
11:16:54 <Deewiant> Eh, they haven't locked down the compiler so half of it is finding the most verbose version
11:17:10 <shachaf> A type error in one of those double-exponential inference cases.
11:17:23 <ais523_> yeah, it seems poorly defined
11:17:27 <ais523_> but the concept is pretty funny anyway
11:18:12 <Deewiant> The #include __FILE__ one is probably the shortest way to get an infinite output in some specific compiler/version
11:18:14 <shachaf> There were similar competitions in #haskell with e.g. @pl
11:19:12 <shachaf> GHC also used to generate an infinite error.
11:19:41 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
11:20:13 <shachaf> Yes, I think the infinite error was a bug in the pretty-printer.
11:20:19 <Jafet> @pl \a b c d e f -> f e d c b a
11:20:19 <lambdabot> flip (flip . ((flip . ((flip . (flip .)) .)) .) . flip (flip . ((flip . (flip .)) .) . flip (flip . (flip .) . flip (flip . flip id))))
11:20:52 <Jafet> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/3994/write-a-code-golf-problem-in-which-java-wins
11:22:59 <lambdabot> join (join (join (join (join (join id)))))
11:23:17 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
11:23:17 <lambdabot> t1 = t1 -> t2 -> t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t6 -> t0
11:23:17 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `a', namely `a'
11:24:11 <lambdabot> join (join (flip (flip fix fix) fix))
11:24:23 <shachaf> @type ((((((((((((((((([] :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
11:24:35 <ais523_> Deewiant: I'm not sure #include __FILE__ is likely to produce an infinite output, unless you put an erroring line before the include
11:24:55 <shachaf> @type ((((((((((((((((([] :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
11:24:56 <lambdabot> [[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]
11:25:05 <Deewiant> ais523_: Right, not by itself, of course
11:25:57 <shachaf> @type (((((((((((([] :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
11:25:59 <lambdabot> [[[[[[[[[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]] -> [[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]
11:25:59 <lambdabot> ] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]]] -> [[[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]
11:25:59 <lambdabot> -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]] -> [[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [
11:25:59 <lambdabot> [[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]]]] -> [[[[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] ->
11:25:59 <lambdabot> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]] -> [[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[
11:26:11 <shachaf> @type ((((((((((((([] :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):)
11:26:14 <lambdabot> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]] -> [[[[[[a]] -> [[a]
11:26:14 <lambdabot> ]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]]] -> [[[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]
11:26:14 <lambdabot> -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]] -> [[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] ->
11:26:14 <lambdabot> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]]]] -> [[[[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] ->
11:26:14 <lambdabot> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]]] -> [[[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]] -> [[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[[a]] -> [[a]]]]] -> [[[[[a]] -> [[a]]] -> [[
11:26:18 <Deewiant> ais523_: But "E\n#include __FILE__" is hard to beat if it's infinite in some compiler (except by naming the file something shorter than _FILE_)
11:26:55 <ais523_> that could compete quite well with the zero-byte input that someone gave as a joke
11:27:14 <shachaf> haskell/06.02.26:10:01:08 <lambdabot> [131068 @more lines]
11:27:35 <ais523_> shachaf: hmm, now to make that into an error message
11:28:03 <lambdabot> Num a => [[a] -> [a]] -> [[a] -> [a]]
11:28:22 <ais523_> it saves one character in the program
11:28:44 <ais523_> but the message is shorter because it factors out the type requirement
11:28:54 <lambdabot> [[Char] -> [Char]] -> [[Char] -> [Char]]
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11:29:19 <lambdabot> [[[Char]] -> [[Char]]] -> [[[Char]] -> [[Char]]]
11:30:05 <ais523_> also insufficiently Unicode
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11:30:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[[[[GHC.Types.Char]]
11:30:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[[[[Char]] -> [[Char]]]
11:30:38 <lambdabot> -> [[[[Char]] -> [[Char]]] -> [[[Char]] -> [[Char]]]]]
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11:45:19 <Jafet> @ty ((((( :) :) :) :) :)
11:45:20 <lambdabot> [[[[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]] -> [[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]]] -> [[[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]] -> [[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]]]] -> [[[[a -> [a] -> [
11:45:20 <lambdabot> a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]] -> [[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]]] -> [[[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]] -> [[a -> [a] -> [a]] -> [a -> [a] -> [a]]]]]
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12:59:32 <lambdabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:59:32 <metasepia> 2.3.1 has been released. Folks new to this game should remember that
12:59:32 <metasepia> 2.3.* releases are development kernels, with no guarantees that they
12:59:32 <metasepia> will not cause your system to do horrible things like corrupt its
12:59:32 <metasepia> disks, catch fire, or start running Mindcraft benchmarks.
13:00:55 <boily> @tell Koen__ désolé, je suis tombé sur le pays d'à côté.
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13:28:06 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: but you don't insult people for being English very often
13:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, what makes you think that you english piece of shit
13:29:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: and when you do it doesn't work
13:58:29 <ais523_> idea I just had: automated Turing Test judge
13:58:41 <ais523_> that is, instead of a human and a computer both trying to convince a human that they're human
13:58:50 <ais523_> the human and computer each try to convinced a computer that they're human
13:59:15 <ais523_> actually, that's what a CAPTCHA is, isn't it?
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14:19:19 <elliott> the real question is whether turing could pass a captcha....... deep thoughts
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14:32:58 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:2D-Reverse I don't really see why it can't be turing complete
14:34:14 <AnotherTest> I don't see how you can "only store 4 values" really
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15:42:26 <boily> `pastlogs you suck
15:42:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
15:43:07 <boily> argh! I need a proof that I'm a sucker! I ain't let nobody sweep me off that illustrious position!
15:51:00 <fizzie> AnotherTest: "it has to be able to store an arbitrary number of VARIABLES, not only be able to store an infinite number of different values" I don't understand it.
15:51:37 <fizzie> AnotherTest: As far as I can tell, he'd argue brainfuck is not T-complete because it can only "store" one "variable".
15:53:06 <AnotherTest> So with variable, he means the infinite array I suppose?
15:53:26 <AnotherTest> I don't see why you would need an infinite amount of infinite arrays though
15:53:42 <fizzie> I think what the pointer is currently pointing at.
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16:16:30 <coppro> elliott: can i have a trading care of you?
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17:09:32 <HackEgo> Lymia: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:10:10 <fizzie> That's quite the unrainbowy set of random colors.
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17:16:36 <boily> btw, what sound does a cuttlefish make?
17:20:11 <tswett> Sgeo_: hey, so you know Agora's trading card game?
17:20:19 <tswett> Could I get some Sgeo trading cards off you?
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17:33:26 <Taneb> elliott, what's that thingy with the terrifying and the holes
17:33:26 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:36:44 <boily> Taneb: o hai! I think I needed to apply kinetic energy on you with a blunt object, but I can't remember why.
17:37:11 <Taneb> I'm kinda tipsy, now isn't a great time
17:38:25 <boily> oh. I'll wait for the completion of your stat debuff and then apply bluntness in a delicate and polite manner.
17:39:20 <Taneb> Tipsiness also includes a buff to pain resistance
17:39:32 <Taneb> So I wouldn't be taking the full force
17:39:36 <Taneb> Which isn't really fair
17:52:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
17:53:31 <Taneb> ...are you the real cpressey?
17:54:04 <Taneb> It feels like I'm meeting a celebrity
17:54:32 <Taneb> Except this time, I had heard of him earlier than the day I met him
17:54:38 <cpressey> i'm not a celebrity, i'm just old :)
17:55:50 <Taneb> Yeah, Befunge is older than me :/
17:58:05 <Taneb> cpressey, so what have you been up to recently?
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18:04:16 <cpressey> Taneb: (plz excuse me if i don't respond in rt, i'm apt to get pulled afk) not a lot, esolang-wise. things are fairly unusual for me right now. as usual. (which makes no sense, of course)
18:04:50 <Taneb> cpressey, have you been reading Phantom_Hoover's Tumblr?
18:05:04 <boily> I think cpressey's a ghost. His IP is deep in the middle of a black zone from RIPE: http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/hilbert/index.html
18:05:15 <AnotherTest> this is like gandalf meeting elrond (relatively speaking of course)
18:08:05 <Taneb> AnotherTest, I'm pretty sure Phantom_Hoover is neither Gandalf nor Elrond
18:08:18 <Taneb> If cpressey met David Morgan-Mar, that would be fun
18:12:07 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure Gandalf was older than Elrond
18:13:46 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure about that too.
18:14:08 <Taneb> Yeah, Gandalf predates Middle Earth
18:14:10 <Bike> it's impolite to ask a wizard his age
18:14:10 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:14:27 <AnotherTest> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?9430-Gandalf-s-age
18:14:39 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: i'm tempted to attribute that to the law of conservation of holes in souls. should i be reading your tumblr?
18:14:58 <fizzie> "-- has the strength of a grown man like physical wise and junk --"
18:15:01 <fizzie> Best thread, I'm sure.
18:15:24 <fizzie> Anyway, "has been on Middle-Earth" != his age.
18:15:26 <AnotherTest> "I was there three thousand years ago, when the strength of Men failed." - Elrond, The Fellowship of the Ring
18:15:45 <Bike> yo y'all are fuckin nerds jst fyi
18:16:01 <AnotherTest> "I remember doing the math on a thread long ago, and he is 2021 years old. He came into Middle Earth as Gandalf 1000years into the 1st age, i think, and he lived till the end of the third, or remained Gandalf until the end of the third. 2021 years "
18:16:06 <fizzie> Yes, and Gandalf was presumably there before Arda was founded. Unless, I guess, they were making new maiar or however those things get created.
18:16:20 <fizzie> AnotherTest: He *came into Middle Earth* then. That's not his age.
18:16:36 <AnotherTest> fizzie: the same is true for the elves though, afaik
18:16:39 <cpressey> Mary Poppins is supposed to be "as old as the Earth". Trump card, I think.
18:16:56 <fizzie> AnotherTest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf "In Valinor, Gandalf was known as Olórin.[1] As recounted in the "Valaquenta" in The Silmarillion,[19] he was one of the Maiar of Valinor, specifically, of the people of the Vala Manwë --"
18:17:14 <fizzie> Most of Valaquenta predates elves in general.
18:17:29 <AnotherTest> about elrond: "He was born in the refuge of the Havens of Sirion in Beleriand late in the First Age,"
18:17:42 <fizzie> Yes, so he most definitely doesn't predate elves.
18:19:14 <fizzie> AnotherTest: "With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, -- Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin." --Silmarillion.
18:19:20 <fizzie> AnotherTest: So "before the World".
18:23:12 <AnotherTest> Alright maybe this was more like Gandalf meeting Tom Bombadil
18:23:26 <AnotherTest> although I'm not sure about his age either
18:23:59 <fizzie> Tom's called "Eldest", but I've seen some Tolkien newsgroup people saying he's exactly as old as Arda and not older.
18:24:09 <Taneb> AnotherTest, Phantom_Hoover is not that old?
18:24:09 <fizzie> He's older than Elrond too, incidentally. :p
18:24:39 <Taneb> kmc, have you followed me on Twitter?
18:24:49 <kmc> i think so
18:25:00 <Taneb> Because I pretty much never use Twitter
18:25:11 <fizzie> ("Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was ...
18:25:13 <AnotherTest> fizzie: OK. This was Bilbo meeting Gandalf?
18:25:16 <fizzie> ... fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'")
18:25:36 <fizzie> I didn't read what the original context was, actually. :p
18:26:20 <fizzie> (And of course that's what Tom *said*. I wouldn't trust a guy who keeps saying "ring a ding dillo" and such.)
18:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Tom's called "Eldest", but I've seen some Tolkien newsgroup people saying he's exactly as old as Arda and not older.
18:28:16 <cpressey> is Tolkein trivia competency once of the pillars of becoming the "hthiest channel of the network" perchance?
18:28:31 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#bombadil is I think what I was thinking about. It's sort of unclear.
18:29:02 <Taneb> cpressey, you'll have missed the whole hth epidemic
18:29:06 <fizzie> (It does not accept the Tom-is-Eru point of view.)
18:29:26 <cpressey> Taneb: do tell. (in summary form preferably)
18:29:27 <Bike> cpressey: probably
18:29:42 <Bike> cpressey: people put "hth" all over their messages. the end
18:29:44 <fizzie> cpressey: It's about people overusing hth hth
18:30:12 <Taneb> It stands for "hope this helps" hth
18:30:58 <fizzie> Taneb: I thought it standed for something involving hairy toes.
18:31:08 <Taneb> It stands for many things
18:32:03 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
18:32:29 <boily> as you can see, hth is very clear nah.
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18:33:47 <cpressey> i remember hth from 2003-ish. the Californian version was "hth hand".
18:34:13 <cpressey> "nah" as a sentence-ender on the other hand -- that seems less familiar
18:34:13 <fizzie> "Is Legolas blonde or dark?" "Another often-overlooked point is that every single elf described in person in LotR and The Hobbit, apart from the family of Elrond, is fair-haired. And they are all blonde apart from Celeborn, who is silver-haired, and Círdan who, for some unexplained reason, is old and grey." this FAQ certainly addresses the important problems of the world.
18:34:21 <Vorpal> oh hey, it is cpressey! Long time no see
18:34:51 <HackEgo> aah ambiguous acronym here
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18:36:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, I remember you saying once that you needed the esoteric programming languages to get away from the day to day coding at work (or something to similar effect). You were absolutely correct about that.
18:36:39 <Vorpal> Though work is still fun, there is definitely such a thing as too much C++
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18:39:33 <cpressey> Vorpal: i don't remember saying that, but yes, countering the ill effects of production programming is definitely one use for esolang, sure
18:39:40 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: there is of course also such a thing as too much brainfuck derivatives
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18:43:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, so how are things going these days?
18:45:35 <cpressey> Vorpal: same old, same old; that is to say, complete chaos.
18:46:10 <cpressey> going by my editing history of the esolangs wiki, i "discovered" Imaginary Functions, and then my brain exploded.
18:46:27 <cpressey> that was almost half a year ago, wow. time flied
18:46:40 <cpressey> *flies, *flew, whichever, take your pick
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18:46:47 <Vorpal> What is an imaginary function? I assume it is something more complex (pun originally not intended) than complex numbers?
18:47:28 <cpressey> it was something stupid, iirc. you can search the wiki for the article if you really care
18:47:57 <Vorpal> It does not want to load... Huh
18:48:11 <cpressey> but something loosely analogous to imaginary numbers, yeah
18:48:16 <Vorpal> Sigh, IPv6 issues again is it?
18:48:20 <fizzie> TIL: The imaginary error function, erfi(z), is defined as -i erf (iz).
18:48:25 <Vorpal> Why does Chromium ignore /etc/gai.conf
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18:50:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, heh that is a pretty cool idea
18:50:38 <Vorpal> though more as a joke than as something that would actually work
18:50:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: They've probably monkeyed (term certainly not suggested by a recent join) around with DNS resolving, for something and profit.
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18:51:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, result is that when there is IPv6 issues I will get those in chromium even though I want to prefer ipv4
18:58:35 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0dHKWjXn-E i love that defense contractors make these kinds of videos
18:59:38 <kmc> apparently the Predator C has an anti ballistic missile laser capability :O
18:59:45 <Bike> lol, beautiful
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19:01:42 <Bike_> who's the target demographic of this video?
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19:01:54 <boily> kmc: according to reddit, sqlite was created for missile guidance systems.
19:02:59 <Bike_> haha, the enemy radar guy
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19:05:27 <Bike_> but like, is this supposed to be a commercial given to the DoD
19:05:50 <kmc> yeah i don't know
19:05:56 <kmc> maybe it's for the people who decide what to buy and/or how much of it
19:05:57 <Taneb> Dungeons /or/ Dragons
19:05:57 <Taneb> You can no longer have both
19:06:05 <kmc> maybe it's for stockholders?
19:06:21 <Bike_> Taneb: damn budget cuts
19:06:25 <kmc> i've seen a lot of these though
19:06:27 <fizzie> Taneb: Is it written "D|D"?
19:06:44 <Bike_> kmc: i've seen this sort of thing before too and i didn't get it then either
19:07:03 <AnotherTest> fizzie: isn't | inclusive or? Sounds more like XOR too me "you can't have both"
19:07:12 <cpressey> in Canada it's the "Department of National Defence" so you can totally have both
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19:07:32 <fizzie> Advanced Dungeons xor Dragons.
19:07:44 <fizzie> (Is that A(D^D) or (AD)^D?)
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19:08:02 <Bike> well advanced dragons sound scary, i'm gonna stick with advanced dungeons
19:08:29 <AnotherTest> Well (not (d <=> d)) <=> d xor d if I'm not making a horrible mistake
19:08:37 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wdjgL40wc4
19:08:43 <kmc> not the original soundtrack, sadly
19:09:20 <kmc> "Fair use for Tsar Bomba... The photograph belongs to Russian department of Atomic Energy Minatom. Introducing the picture on our server does not interfere with their ability to develop and market new nuclear devices"
19:09:21 <Bike> 'Dr. Michio Kaku Says America Has a Secret Super Weapon' thanks youtube
19:10:04 <kmc> Bike: have you played DEFCON?
19:11:36 <Bike> yes. that game is horribly depressing.
19:13:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:15:40 <Bike> also i'm really bad at it.
19:17:56 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/135581065/in/set-72057594117941491/lightbox/
19:19:08 <kmc> lots of good stuff in this gallery
19:19:08 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/135597116/in/set-72057594117941491
19:21:54 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/135857435/in/set-72057594117941491 http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/135857360/in/set-72057594117941491
19:22:00 <fizzie> Huh, Flickr now offers a terabyte of storage for free users? That must be new.
19:24:34 <fizzie> Also, Flickr is now "biggr", "spectaculr" and "wherevr". Well... whatevr, I guess.
19:25:58 <Bike> there was someone on github making fun of it by offering a flickr-as-FUSE
19:26:11 <Bike> kmc: haha. butt.
19:26:22 <kmc> Bike: you understand.
19:27:24 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/d965aa707ebaaab6a223094666ae1a41/tumblr_mmgd8tWpgu1r0wqrdo1_500.jpg
19:28:08 <Koen__> I'm not violent but HERE'S MY FIST IN YOUR FACE
19:28:08 <lambdabot> Koen__: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:28:27 <Koen__> that better not be a message about confusing paris and brussels
19:28:32 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
19:28:39 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 27m 44s ago: désolé, je suis tombé sur le pays d' côté.
19:32:03 <fizzie> Settlers of côté, the mojibake boardgame.
19:34:44 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130524-biggr.png nice slider.
19:38:08 <Vorpal> Hm can you do private photos on flickr?
19:38:23 <Vorpal> If so you could use that as a backup service, encoding data in photos
19:39:03 <fizzie> I don't think you can. Though if you trust your encryption, privateness shouldn't matter.
19:39:16 <fizzie> (I'd assume the Flickr FUSE thing does encryption?)
19:39:33 <fizzie> Might easily be against their TOS, of course.
19:39:40 <Vorpal> Flicker fuse thing? That sounds cool
19:40:57 <fizzie> There's a couple "serious" Flickr FUSE things that are actually about managing your visible photos.
19:41:12 <fizzie> But I gather the thing Bike mentioned wasn't like that?
19:42:36 <kmc> it should do encryption and authentication/integrity
19:42:59 <fizzie> The ones (for arbitrary data) I can find offhand don't seem to be FUSE modules. But I'm sure that's out there too.
19:43:33 <fizzie> Also they seem to just put the data into a tEXt PNG chunk.
19:48:22 <fizzie> Huh, my fcolor thing still hasn't bitrotted away.
19:48:48 <fizzie> Though for some reason two first images when I told it to search for the color of love were of insects copulating.
19:49:08 <fizzie> (It uses the "sort by relevance" criterion, so... that makes sense?)
19:49:21 <fizzie> So far, love seems kind of brown.
19:52:48 <cpressey> it seems likely that some insects would change colour when they're, um, in love
19:53:53 <fizzie> The search term was just "love", though.
19:57:59 <Vorpal> That is a weird casing
19:58:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think the case of at least the first letter has semantics.
19:58:31 <fizzie> Uppercase for mandatory and lowercase for optional chunks, or something like that.
19:59:07 <kmc> all four do iirc
19:59:42 <kmc> so that even for unrecognized chunk types, you know if it's safe to ignore them and strip them when saving and such
19:59:43 <fizzie> Well, the third is arguable.
19:59:51 <fizzie> First one is the critical/ancillary (aka mandatory/optional) bit; second is public/private; third is reserved for future extension; and fourth is the safe-to-copy bit.
20:00:30 <fizzie> So tEXt is ancillary (not strictly necessary for meaningful display of the image), public (defined by the standard), and safe to copy.
20:00:53 <fizzie> (The reserved letter is always uppercase for the standard chunks.)
20:01:05 <kmc> PNG format is... interesting
20:01:16 <kmc> it's one of those formats which has both big and little endian parts :<
20:01:26 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/04/minimal-encoder-for-uncompressed-pngs.html
20:01:40 <fizzie> Also the readme of that tool said it's stored as tEXt (uncompressed textual data) and not zTXt (compressed text) because the library it used didn't support the latter.
20:02:12 <kmc> PNG has lots of potential for steganographic information hiding
20:02:47 <kmc> for example the breaks between IDAT chunks can occur anywhere within the zlib stream
20:02:55 <kmc> and of course there are many ways to zlib-compress the same bytes as wel
20:03:23 <kmc> and you can also encode a few bits per line in the choice of 'filter' functions
20:08:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm so what does "safe to copy" mean?
20:22:15 <kmc> if you're editing a PNG and don't recognize this chunk, you can copy it verbatim to the output file
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20:48:33 <nooodl_> this factorial-less proof i wrote of pascal's formula is pretty cute: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15495351/pascal.pdf
20:49:13 <nooodl_> using colors in latex-y documents feels very... unprofessional... but it's so cleeear
20:50:07 <kmc> looks nice
20:50:36 <fizzie> I shewed this slide https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130325-colorslide.png the other day (well, the other month)
20:50:54 <fizzie> It's also a LaTeX-y document, though I suppose using colors in a beamer slideset is far less unprofessional.
20:51:22 <nooodl_> fizzie: that one looks like colorblind hell
20:51:50 <fizzie> It's just them groupings.
20:52:06 <fizzie> See, the betas that are violet are both blue and red at the same time SO DEEP
20:53:06 <nooodl_> man, is "x choose (-1) = 0" even a thing? wolfram alpha agrees, my ti-84 doesn't
20:53:35 <kmc> back in my day we didn't have ti-84
20:53:51 <fizzie> kmc: Did your slide rules do binomial coefficients?
20:54:51 <nooodl_> i mean sure, it's impossible to pick -1 elements out of any collection. but contrary to stuff like "n choose k = 0 if k > n", this situation doesn't even make sense
20:55:22 <kmc> i guess those things are usually set in order to make some identities hold
20:55:55 <kmc> is there a relevant identity here
20:56:27 <nooodl_> i guess you could say, from that rule i proved, \binom{n+1}{0} = \binom{n}{0} + \binom{n}{-1}
20:56:29 <cpressey> if it's impossible, then there are zero ways to do it, right?
20:56:51 <nooodl_> so 1 = 1 + \binom{n}{-1}, so it's 0
20:57:37 <nooodl_> cpressey: well the thing that bugs me about making up rules about negative binomial coefficients is
20:58:19 <nooodl_> \binom{4}{sqrt(2)+i} is also "impossible" but it's definitely not 0
20:58:45 <kmc> that's a type error
20:58:53 <nooodl_> i feel like -1 should be, too
20:59:10 <kmc> \binom{4}{banana}
20:59:20 <kmc> \binom{4}{☭}
20:59:24 <nooodl_> wow what the hell, i was considering exactly that example
20:59:53 <kmc> banana is the most random fruit
21:00:02 <kmc> just like 37 is the most random number in [1,100]
21:01:13 <nooodl_> the most random number in [1,10] is either 7 or 3.14159265, depending on level of smart-assery
21:03:43 <kmc> but π isn't proven to be normal
21:03:56 <kmc> the most random number in [1,10] should be some number constructed to be provably normal
21:04:10 <Vorpal> <kmc> \binom{4}{☭} <-- what is that blurry symbol?
21:04:11 <shachaf> imo the most random number in [1,10] should be uncomputable
21:04:24 <nooodl_> a hammer and sickle Vorpal
21:04:49 <nooodl_> shachaf: imo they're all equally random?
21:04:52 <Bike> oh, i thought you were thinking sociologically. like that study finding that most people picked 17 as random in [1,20]
21:04:55 <cpressey> in soviet russia, random number chooses YOU
21:04:56 <Vorpal> nooodl_, really blurry in 8 pt dejavu sans mono
21:05:14 <shachaf> Bike: You should know by now that people are thinking more than one thing.
21:05:14 <fizzie> The Copeland–Erdős constant plus 1? (I guess you can freely select the initial digits?)
21:05:15 <nooodl_> Bike: we were at first but then #esoteric kicked in
21:05:15 <Vorpal> On a 96 dpi monitor that is
21:05:46 <Bike> shachaf: that sounds hard.
21:05:53 <Vorpal> I wonder how long it takes until we get 300+ dpi desktop monitors
21:06:10 <fizzie> Almost all numbers in [1,10] are uncomputable, so I guess it's quite probable the most random number is too?
21:06:19 <Vorpal> And I'm sure there is some super-expensive specialist one already
21:06:20 <nooodl_> reasons people run these studies: - they wanna win at "guess which number i'm thinking of"
21:06:33 <shachaf> fizzie: If you pick a number in [1,10] randomly, it's uncomputable with probability 1.
21:06:45 <shachaf> So it's completely certain.
21:07:21 <fizzie> Okay I picked 1 I guess 1 is uncomputable then oh well sucks to be 1.
21:07:46 <shachaf> you didn't pick randomly enough sorry
21:07:57 <fizzie> Okay okay I pick 7 I hear it's random.
21:08:12 <Vorpal> 4 is random, by fair dice roll according to xkcd
21:08:43 <shachaf> whoa dude i bet kmc was making a subtle xkcd reference
21:09:21 <Bike> subtlety? in esoteric?
21:09:46 <shachaf> there was subtlety there and you missed it Bike "sry"
21:11:38 <Vorpal> http://xkcd.com/1213/ <-- does that thing actually work? It surely can't test for colorblindness as it claims to since it is greyscale... And there is no big number in it...
21:11:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think there's some screens for like "medical use" that are something like 160-180 ppi. You don't need that high resolutions to get a high ppd (pixels per degree) at the distances you're ergonomical-standards-ly "supposed" to look at a desktop monitor from.
21:12:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I certainly could do with a bit more than 96 though, 120-130 maybe
21:15:58 <fizzie> Perhaps someone'll start to sell a bit smaller 2560x1440 screens at some point. At 27" (those are generally available at the moment) that's 108 ppi.
21:16:01 <cpressey> Vorpal: if you insist on viewing text in an 8-point font, yes, i could see how you might want that
21:16:33 <Vorpal> anyway it works fine for IRC, and for latin font
21:16:52 <Vorpal> Not without my glasses obviously, but I use glasses all the time anyway
21:17:06 <Vorpal> can't read a book without my glasses
21:18:47 <fizzie> Perhaps when there's enough 4K content around, someone'll make, say, a 24" (or some other such sensible desktop size) monitor where you can display some of it natively.
21:19:20 <fizzie> (3840x2160 at 24" would be 180 ppi.)
21:20:03 <Vorpal> Yeah I wouldn't mind that
21:20:36 <Vorpal> Speaking of which I plan to get some new monitors sooner rather than later
21:20:45 <Vorpal> I gotten so used to multi-monitor at work
21:20:56 <Vorpal> anyone have any recommendations?
21:21:06 <Vorpal> Thinking maybe two syncmasters or similar
21:21:22 <Vorpal> or are are any better brand that isn't super-expensive
21:21:31 <fizzie> ViewSonic has allegedly announced a 32" 3840x2160 (i.e., 140 ppi) desktop display at some point.
21:21:41 <kmc> fizzie: nice!
21:21:51 <kmc> Vorpal: what size?
21:22:14 <Vorpal> kmc, Around 22-24 or so
21:22:28 <kmc> get the Dell U2412M then
21:22:39 <kmc> maybe one in portrait, one in landscape
21:22:41 <kmc> i like that setup
21:22:46 <Vorpal> Okay, is the colour reproduction good on that?
21:22:56 <kmc> at my last job I had two U2412M in portrait with a U3011 between them...
21:22:57 <Vorpal> Also I prefer to have a rectangular desktop
21:23:04 <fizzie> And LG had a 30" panel of that resolution at some trade show, according to interwebs.
21:23:15 <kmc> color reproduction is supposed to be good... it's an IPS panel and it's Dell's UltraSharp line, which is their high end line
21:23:24 <kmc> i never like measured it
21:23:29 <Vorpal> 30" is too big, won't fit
21:23:31 <kmc> it's not factory color calibrated like the U3011
21:23:38 <Vorpal> Okay, so what does it cost... lets see
21:23:40 <fizzie> kmc: And nobody complained that setup reminds people of the Two Towers and is therefore insensitive workplace behaviour?
21:23:56 <kmc> it's just one huge wall of monitors
21:24:13 <Vorpal> About 2000 SEK, okay. Somewhat expensive but oka
21:24:28 <kmc> yeah that's about what I paid
21:24:31 <kmc> except you know in USD
21:24:45 <kmc> a lot of electronics is weirdly expensive in Europe
21:24:54 <kmc> like computers will cost as many £ in UK as they cost $ here
21:24:55 <Vorpal> kmc, U3011 and U2412M? How do they differ?
21:25:04 <Vorpal> kmc, higher VAT I guess?
21:25:20 <kmc> U3011 is a 30" monitor, a slightly older line (there's a new model now)
21:25:31 <kmc> and as it's older, it has a CFL backlight rather than LED
21:25:43 <Vorpal> Does it have displayport?
21:25:50 <kmc> i think the M means that it's an E-IPS rather than H-IPS monitor
21:26:05 <Vorpal> also what is the difference between E-IPS and H-IPS?
21:26:08 <fizzie> Someone else somewhere recommended something that I think sounded like U2412M too, FWIW. (High praise.)
21:26:19 <fizzie> It was Dell and 24", at least.
21:26:39 <kmc> which means cheaper but somewhat smaller viewing angles etc
21:26:54 <Vorpal> I should check what my Dell at work is
21:26:58 <Vorpal> it is a pretty good one too
21:27:00 <kmc> i have no complaints with the viewing angle though, even in portrait mode
21:27:10 <Koen__> this discussion would be so sexy if you were talking about cars
21:27:17 <Vorpal> I have a weird combo of one syncmaster, one dell + built in laptop display
21:27:22 <Vorpal> (the laptop is also a dell)
21:27:38 <Koen__> well polyvalent cars, really
21:27:40 <kmc> there's a more expensive H-IPS 24" ultrasharp too
21:27:47 <Vorpal> Koen__, who cares about cars? Monitors are far more interesting, and also cheaper
21:28:09 <Koen__> who cares about cars who monitors monitors
21:28:28 <Vorpal> kmc, nope, 2000 SEK / monitor is definitely on the upper end of the range for me
21:28:37 <kmc> it's also a lot harder to kill someone with a monitor
21:28:52 <Koen__> may be so, but you can do it indoors
21:29:15 <fizzie> Apparently my work screen is an "FUS P24W-6 LED", whatever that means.
21:29:22 <fizzie> I think FUS stands for Fujitsu here.
21:29:22 <Vorpal> Koen__, I'm getting a small second hand Kia soon. 10 years old, but mileage is very low, since it has been used as a summer car by an old relative.
21:29:57 <Vorpal> I think it was like less than 1200 Swedish miles (1 Swedish mile = 10 km)
21:30:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sexiest car ever, I'm sure.
21:30:10 <kmc> swedish miles really
21:30:22 <kmc> oh singular 'mil'
21:30:29 <Vorpal> kmc, Or Scandinavian perhaps
21:30:38 <Koen__> so hmm what kind of kia?
21:30:54 <kmc> i'm used to a mil being 0.001 in
21:31:07 <fizzie> I'm renting a CAR this June, it's prepaid and all.
21:31:09 <Vorpal> Koen__, don't remember, it works, has an AC and a electric engine heater. What more do you need?
21:31:14 <fizzie> I think it's the kind of car that it'll have four wheels.
21:31:15 <Vorpal> It is not like it is a monitor
21:32:40 <Koen__> I don't like air conditionning
21:32:53 <kmc> lol electric engine heater, do parking spots in .se have outlets to plug those in?
21:32:56 <kmc> i saw those in alaska
21:32:57 <fizzie> Apparently the car will be a "Ford Fiesta or equivalent". I don't know, I picked the cheapest one with AC. (Even in Finland there's sometimes hot summer days.)
21:33:32 <Vorpal> kmc, Well, at home and at work yes usually
21:33:37 <fizzie> kmc: "Residential" parking slots, the kind you pay a monthly fee for, here pretty much all have those.
21:33:42 <Vorpal> kmc, not at supermarkets and such unless you are way up north
21:33:50 <kmc> i guess you aren't parked as long there
21:34:03 <kmc> must suck if you leave your car at the pub overnight
21:34:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well for me, I park at the garage driveway probably
21:34:25 <Vorpal> Since there is no space in the garage
21:34:36 <fizzie> I think the parking place fee at our apartment building is something like 10-20 eur/month.
21:34:46 <Koen__> there's no space in the garage cause it's full of monitors
21:34:55 <kmc> parking spots in manhattan cost as much as studio apartments
21:35:02 <fizzie> It might've been a different price for the places with a roof than those on top of it.
21:35:05 <kmc> and the apartments are not a lot bigger
21:35:10 <kmc> so it makes sense really
21:36:31 <fizzie> kmc: Do you know if Berkeley is a nice place? There's a (smallish) chance I might migrate thataway (after graduating) for a year or so.
21:36:46 <kmc> it seems pretty nice
21:36:54 <Vorpal> <Koen__> there's no space in the garage cause it's full of monitors <-- no but my parents car is there, and it isn't a two-car garrage
21:37:03 <kmc> i don't have that much experience with Berkeley
21:37:09 <kmc> I like the SF bay area in general, and I'm going to move there soon
21:37:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: You should invest in one of those robot car tower things.
21:38:01 <shachaf> Not that I've lived there. But I've visited friends there and I like going there.
21:38:01 <kmc> "Berkeley has one of the highest rates of bicycle and pedestrian commuting in the nation. Berkeley is the safest city of its size in California for pedestrians and cyclists, considering the number of injuries per pedestrian and cyclist, rather than per capita"
21:38:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you mean?
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21:38:15 <Koen__> Vorpal: wait, so you park your car outside just in front of the garage door? how do you parents do when they need their car?
21:38:23 <kmc> i think it's pretty expensive to live in Berkeley proper
21:38:39 <Vorpal> Koen__, we would obviously schedule it so that the next car out is the one outmost
21:38:57 <kmc> but it's connected to BART and you could easily live in Oakland or Richmond instead
21:38:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vr7ofPTpcM that kind of thing.
21:39:06 <kmc> but these places are a lot less nice
21:39:36 <Vorpal> Koen__, besides there is enough area in front of the garage for a car to pass another parked to the side, since it was originally a two car garage but was rebuilt in the 60s (way before we moved here) to have a isolated inner area in one half
21:39:50 <Vorpal> To put various stuff in during the winter
21:39:57 <Vorpal> (it is a non-heated garage)
21:40:16 <Koen__> various stuff that includes monitors?
21:40:38 <fizzie> One of the hotels for our upcoming summer trip has a "completely automatized" garage -- http://www.hotel-luganodante.com/en/Technical_Information_Our_Garage -- not that we're going to be driving a car or anything.
21:40:59 <fizzie> It's not terribly clear what "completely automatized" means.
21:41:07 <Vorpal> Koen__, no, extra freezer, the home grown potatos and other stuff
21:41:31 <Vorpal> No monitors were harmed in the building of this area
21:41:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: The home-grown monitors.
21:41:40 <fizzie> Monitor lizards, that is.
21:42:00 <Koen__> but there's a thermometer in the freezer right? with a MONITOR to display the temperature?
21:42:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Sorry! There was an error. We will fix it as soon as possible. back to home"
21:42:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: It works if you navigate there manually.
21:42:39 <fizzie> I guess they check referer or something equally silly.
21:43:19 <fizzie> Well, maybe it relies in some sort of a session cookie, which would be even sillier.
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21:43:29 <fizzie> Since the direct links work now that I've visited the front page.
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21:43:51 <Vorpal> I think they fail at English
21:44:04 <Vorpal> Or have a very weird relationship to cars
21:44:25 <Vorpal> Calling it a "truthful companion" rather than "trusted" or similar for a start
21:44:28 <kmc> fizzie: what would you do in Berkeley
21:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> one moment i was celebrating his return and now vorpal's being allowed to talk
21:45:16 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:45:30 <fizzie> kmc: Our place has some sort of a ongoing reciprocal exchange thing with http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/icsi/ -- my supervisor just came back from there a week ago.
21:46:06 <kmc> berkeley CS is supposed to be pretty good
21:46:46 <kmc> i mean I've heard complaints from undergrads that the program has been dumbed down in recent years
21:46:49 <kmc> but I hear that about everywhere
21:47:00 <kmc> and it doesn't say anything about the grad programs
21:47:09 <fizzie> There's also (allegedly, from travel reports) lots of esteemed guests at that ICSI side, so (again allegedly) one gets to meet a lot of people.
21:47:39 <kmc> it's weird to me that Caltech is #11 in grad CS given how tiny and incomplete our CS dept was
21:47:53 <kmc> but I guess for grad school you already know going in if that school does the particular stuff you want to do
21:48:07 <kmc> if you want to study quantum computing it's probably one of the best places
21:49:45 <kmc> I think some of the complaints about the dumbing down of undergrad CS are sort of reactionary elitism that insists on teaching things that are irrelevant to most developers
21:50:04 <kmc> otoh CS shouldn't be just a vocational program, especially at top schools
21:50:16 <kmc> so i dunno
21:52:01 <fizzie> There's certainly a sense of dumbing-down of undergrad CS at our place too.
21:52:19 <cpressey> well, since the only hard things in CS are naming things and cache coherency (or so I'm told), the bar is pretty low.
21:52:51 <Bike> Naming things is pretty hard, judging by how shittily most software is named
21:53:19 <fizzie> If you pronounce the true name of a program, you can control it, isn't that how it works?
21:53:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, also off by one errors
21:54:11 <cpressey> Vorpal: you're not allowed to "also" that one-liner -- i've tried, it doesn't work
21:54:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, the joke goes "there are only two hard things in CS: naming things, cache coherency and off by one errors"
21:55:08 <fizzie> If you write your name in the "I did my homework for the extra exam points" list of the Introduction to Theoretical Computer Science course with a pink glitter pen, you *will* be "randomly" picked to present one of the problems on the blackboard. (Empirical fact.)
21:55:09 <shachaf> *A* joke goes that way. Not the one cpressey made.
21:55:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, at least that is the variant I have heard
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21:55:37 * Bike adds "jokes" to the list of hard things in CS
21:55:57 <kmc> fizzie: hehe
21:56:12 <shachaf> bicycles are also hard things in cs
21:56:25 <Taneb> Why did the computer scientist travel a thousand miles with dodgy brakes?
21:56:29 <fizzie> (N=10 empirical fact, even.)
21:56:32 <Bike> nah, there was a solution to the n-people k-bikes problem in the last sigbovik
21:56:39 <Taneb> They broke early on then he couldn't solve the halting problem.
21:56:40 <Bike> more than nine empirical? damn
21:57:10 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sieve_of_Eratosthenes
21:57:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, terrible but funny
21:58:55 <kmc> baller order abstract syntax
22:02:23 <Vorpal> kmc, I somehow read that as Balmer, as in the Microsoft guy
22:02:49 <Vorpal> well I read it as Balmer and I thought that was how he spelled his name
22:03:17 <kmc> i know someone who was recruited by Microsoft and got a personal phone call from Ballmer
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22:03:47 <cpressey> "Hello?" "Developers! Developers! Developers!"
22:03:51 <kmc> fresh out of college
22:04:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also re the display thing, maybe you could buy a 15.4" MacBook Pro, fashion a stand out of the computer bits and wire the panel to a graphics card, and then you'll have a 15.4" 2880x1800 (220 ppi) desktop monitor. (Practical.)
22:05:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would have to buy several to create a small video wall or something
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22:46:24 <fizzie> Predicted program for tomorrow: wake early, bicyclize for half an hour to get to the university to fetch a forgotten tablet, realize that someone has screwed up programming the keycard and/or weekend access requires the PIN code I've forgotten, mutter curses for a while, waste another half an hour getting back.
22:48:44 <kmc> are there not enough people around on weekends to get in another way?
22:49:14 <fizzie> I don't know, I haven't tried very often.
22:49:39 <kmc> one time to turn in last minute homework, I had to climb two stories down a rebar ladder in a pitch black ventilation shaft to break into the stairwell
22:49:59 <fizzie> At least the inner doors probably won't ask for the PIN, since they don't need keypads, so maybe it's enough if someone else happens to be going in/out.
22:50:20 <kmc> steam tunnels were also useful for this purpose
22:52:18 <fizzie> I don't know if I want to do any especially impressive breaking-and-entering, given that it's not like I couldn't just wait until Monday.
23:08:26 <kmc> college is about finding excuses for impressive breaking-and-entering
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23:23:05 <Sgeo_> I found a language I hate more than Java or PHP
23:24:23 <kmc> what about it?
23:25:27 <Sgeo_> Dealing with box models, divs that seem to eat margins of children despite google results suggesting they normally shouldn't, empty divs having a stylistic effect
23:27:31 <quintopia> i don't actually hate java or php. i vaguely despiser php, and am on speaking terms with java
23:27:32 <Sgeo_> Apparently Gloss (game library for Haskell) now supports arbitrary IO in games
23:27:43 <kmc> cutting edge
23:28:21 <kmc> it's hard for me to actively hate Java because I think the underlying ideas are pretty reasonable
23:28:34 <Sgeo_> Someone should make a pipes thing for Gloss
23:28:37 <kmc> it's just missing some of the features you want to build a usable language around them
23:28:48 <kmc> so maybe I don't hate Java but i would hate working in Java every day
23:29:46 <quintopia> java would be great if it were smalltalk
23:29:56 <quintopia> know any good smalltalk compilers for jvm?
23:30:14 <Bike> smalltalk would be great if it were simula
23:33:06 <Sgeo_> quintopia, are there any Javascript interpreters/compilers in Java?
23:36:47 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhino_(JavaScript_engine)
23:36:49 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1ez1ce/the_shortest_crashing_c_program/
23:36:52 <kmc> i don't see why it's a bad idea particularly
23:37:22 <Bike> Sgeo_: warning: main is usually a function
23:41:10 <kmc> on some architectures 'main;' might not crash, or only sometimes
23:48:11 <nooodl_> what if there's a valid program at *0
23:50:35 <kmc> it doesn't jump to address 0
23:51:10 <kmc> it executes machine code consisting of sizeof(int) zeros followed by whatever's next in memory
23:53:11 <kmc> actually there may be architectures where a function symbol is not located at the first instruction of the code but at some auxilary data structure
23:53:14 <kmc> maybe ia64
23:57:53 <kmc> also on a harvard architecture maybe it does something completely different and insane
23:58:18 <kmc> or maybe it's a linker error
23:59:04 <Bike> does the C standard have a provision for crashing
00:00:14 <kmc> OS/ABI: UNIX - System V
00:00:18 <kmc> Machine: Atmel AVR 8-bit microcontroller
00:01:17 <kmc> it has a provision for 'undefined behavior'
00:02:12 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:04:56 <kmc> avr-gcc creates an image that will I think execute whatever happened to be in flash before
00:05:05 <kmc> after the standard bss-zeroing routine
00:10:59 <shachaf> "main;" is undefined behavior, presumably.
00:11:07 <shachaf> Does a syntax error count as crashing?
00:12:57 -!- mnoqy has joined.
00:13:25 <shachaf> how's the worst thing in the world
00:14:17 <mnoqy> i havent been around
00:14:20 <mnoqy> you should be telling me!
00:14:42 <shachaf> why would i make your life miserable
00:19:07 <kmc> what's that
00:20:07 <shachaf> categories for the working mississippian
00:20:43 <kmc> Capture The Flag With Mnoqy
00:21:37 <shachaf> SGEO_: HEY IT"S FRIDAY WHERE"S MY ~OLIST
00:21:46 <mnoqy> shachaf: im still in my "first pass" where im just reading it while im waiting for things like between classes and not really spening a lot of time on the exercies
00:22:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: ok and "how s it goin g"
00:23:34 <mnoqy> shachaf: im "on" the kan extensions section but i might go back and do some of the exercises now....the "initial pass" thing is starting to break down
00:25:51 <shachaf> kmc: do you play the game where you type a ^W ^Y ^Y ^W ^Y ^Y ^W ^Y ^Y ...
00:27:26 <shachaf> watch out for "using up all your memory"
00:27:31 <kmc> sha chafchafsha chafchafchafchafsha chafchafsha chafchafchafchafchafchafchafchafsha chafchafsha chafchafchafchafsha chafchafsha chafchafchafchafchafchafchafchaf
00:27:45 <shachaf> also ^U works if you have spaces
00:29:11 <kmc> ((((\x. x x)(\x. x x))((\x. x x)(\x. x x)))(((\x. x x)(\x. x x))((\x. x x)(\x. x x))))((((\x. x x)(\x. x x))((\x. x x)(\x. x x)))(((\x. x x)(\x. x x))((\x. x x)(\x. x x))))
00:31:14 <shachaf> > unwords $ liftA2 (++) inits tails "Bike"
00:31:25 -!- objobj has joined.
00:32:42 <HackEgo> objobj: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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00:37:55 <Sgeo_> tswett, I should read the ruleset someday
00:38:14 <tswett> Is it on your to-do list?
00:38:34 <Sgeo_> I don't particularly have a formal to-do list
00:39:41 <tswett> I've found making one monolithic to-do list to be more useful than all other anti-procrastination techniques combined.
00:42:37 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator_algorithm
00:42:48 <Sgeo_> I was hoping to read about algorithms that elevators use...
00:44:17 <kmc> play SimTower
00:45:47 <shachaf> After 15 years of not using IRC.
00:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder how sophisticated lift programming is these days
00:47:09 <Sgeo_> The algorithm described in thar article does not seem like it would necessarily be the best, but it does seem like it would be good at making people on the elevator not get angry
00:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, i guess you have limited control once people actually get into them
00:56:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
01:04:05 <Sgeo_> Do intrusive thoughts get worse with sleep deprivation?
01:04:52 <shachaf> is that like "intrusive data structures"
01:10:55 <shachaf> But how do you get from the passphrase to the AES encryption key? I couldn’t find it documented anywhere, so I had to dig through the OpenSSL source to find it:
01:10:58 <shachaf> Append the first 8 bytes of the IV to the passphrase, without a separator (serves as a salt).
01:11:01 <shachaf> Take the MD5 hash of the resulting string (once).
01:11:34 <shachaf> is this how the key for encrypting my ssh private key is generated :'(
01:11:46 <kmc> yep apparently
01:11:52 <kmc> but you can upgrade to pbkdf2
01:11:55 <kmc> i think that article says how
01:12:35 <kmc> Sgeo_: I'm not sure but I would believe it. certainly visual and auditory (pseudo)hallucinations do
01:12:54 <kmc> if I stay up long enough I start to see illusory patterns on textured surfaces, hear music in white noise, etc
01:13:13 <kmc> sometimes hear whispering voices that i can't quite make out
01:13:23 <kmc> it's a pseudohallucination because I know that these things aren't real
01:13:27 <kmc> similar effects to LSD really
01:13:32 <kmc> (in that respect)
01:14:37 <shachaf> i love the hallucinations from staying up long enough
01:31:18 <kmc> maybe i should drink from the clear jar that says "WINE" on it in magic marker
01:32:11 <shachaf> I used to get a warm fuzzy feeling from staying up long enough.
01:32:48 <shachaf> Nowadays it just feels awful.
01:33:03 <shachaf> I think kmc told me I was getting old.
01:33:42 <kmc> i think shachaf and i are getting old at the same rate
01:34:11 <shachaf> the ratio of our ages is getting closer to 1 :'(
01:35:29 <kmc> i guess next week I'll get old a bit less due to traveling at 0.0000008c for a few hours
01:35:33 <kmc> 'pretty fast imo'
01:36:02 <shachaf> 'pretty slow imo' - photon
01:36:19 <kmc> photons can't talk, you're thinking of phonons
01:36:28 <shachaf> is your flight all planned and booked
01:36:52 <shachaf> who booked it, the non-profit or the non-non-profit
01:36:56 <kmc> the latter
01:37:50 <shachaf> maybe you'll move to sf and i'll move to boston to balance things out
01:37:59 <kmc> Mar 29: B6 633 BOS→SFO; Jun 4: AA 1530 SJC→ORD, AA 1358 ORD→BOS
01:39:33 <shachaf> By the timing of those flights you're not stopping there to meet people, though.
01:39:48 <kmc> correct, they just scheduled a 1-stop flight for whatever reason
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01:40:41 <kmc> i have a hotel in Mountain View for the 29th and the 2nd and 3rd
01:41:27 <kmc> will stay with friends in SF
01:41:44 <kmc> hotel is useful so that i don't have to take caltrain at ass o' clock
01:43:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I need to be in SF sometime between 10 and 13 sometime.
01:49:15 <kmc> you could go on Friday and we could hang out after
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01:53:19 <kmc> is it hard for you to get to SF?
01:53:50 <kmc> are you within walking distance of caltrain
01:54:17 <kmc> not precisely
01:54:50 <shachaf> Newell Rd. & Woodland Ave.
01:55:04 <kmc> sounds picturesque
01:55:19 <kmc> so close to ikea
01:55:33 <shachaf> I've never been there, though.
01:55:43 <kmc> they have good meatballs, I guess that doesn't interest you though
01:55:49 <kmc> well 'good' may be hasty
01:55:52 <kmc> they have meatballs
01:56:03 <shachaf> a good meatball is a dead meatball
01:56:11 <kmc> the meatballs are surprisingly non-awful for food that comes from a furniture store
01:56:44 <kmc> looks like a 2 mile walk to caltrain
01:57:03 <kmc> it's weird how south bay seems so sprawly but it's only like 5 miles across
01:57:55 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/bb51dc73f8ee1ac2365c692ca981dcc2/tumblr_mnbb9ivnPE1r0ix14o1_500.jpg
01:58:51 <kmc> (not clever)
01:59:15 <kmc> moffett field has a light rail connection
02:01:35 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I just need to send this by mail.
02:01:53 <shachaf> I need to print out a form. :-(
02:03:28 <shachaf> hmm this sign says "NO BIKES ALLOWED INSIDE"
02:03:35 <kmc> http://local.fedex.com/ca/east-palo-alto/
02:04:01 <kmc> or, bluff your way into a computer lab at stanford?
02:04:09 <kmc> i hear grad students will do anything for free food
02:04:21 <shachaf> One time I went to one of those places to have a thing scanned.
02:04:38 <shachaf> then i left the original behind "woops"
02:05:32 <shachaf> and it had my social security number on it "double woops"
02:05:46 <shachaf> "all sorts of woopses that day"
02:10:13 <shachaf> Maybe I can go to the consulate on Friday and have them print it.
02:11:00 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I hate you
02:11:13 <Sgeo_> (Assuming that you were joking about it not being... oh... dammit\
02:11:27 <Sgeo_> I confused edwardk and ekmet... wait... I'm still confused
02:12:32 <shachaf> Sgeo_: If you address me with " ::" I won't tell you the answer.
02:15:02 <lambdabot> I've never canceled a subscription to a newspaper because of bad cartoons or editorials. If that were the case, I wouldn't have any newspapers or magazines to read.
02:17:01 <Sgeo_> shachaf: Ok. What's the answer?
02:17:21 <Sgeo_> shachaf: Who wrote the Pong example for lens?
02:17:26 <kmc> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/052313/goddamned-government.gif
02:18:32 <kmc> hunt ducks with a quad .50 cal
02:20:17 <copumpkin> I use one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AW50
02:21:36 <copumpkin> only problem is that there isn't much of the duck left
02:22:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: wasn't that the goal in the first place
02:22:59 <shachaf> AW50? i prefer AN602 for my ducks
02:24:00 <kmc> i use one of those ABM lasers, cooks 'em before they hit the ground
02:24:18 <kmc> apparently the Predator C / Avenger has one of those o_O
02:24:25 <kmc> drone vs. ballistic missile
02:25:03 <kmc> we were watching this promo video earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0dHKWjXn-E
02:25:32 <kmc> if you've been on the fence about buying an Avenger combat UAV, this will surely change your mind
02:26:42 <kmc> I think most drones are pretty slow, but in theory you could make one that goes Mach 3+ and is capable of insane dogfighting maneuvers
02:26:54 <kmc> because you don't have to worry about killing a human with acceleration
02:26:58 <kmc> anyway that would be cool
02:27:09 <kmc> probably not that useful in combat
02:27:48 <copumpkin> how often do we actually dogfight these days
02:28:08 <Bike> approximately never
02:28:17 <copumpkin> main goal of those big-ass fighters is to stroke powerful generals' manliness boners
02:28:24 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUE-cTsaK6g
02:28:31 <kmc> well they are mostly fighter-bombers these days
02:28:49 <Bike> so you can shoot down a dozen migs as you bomb those SAM sites
02:29:25 <kmc> tangos on your six
02:30:35 <shachaf> kmc: that's a promotional video for a computer game right
02:30:53 <Bike> well Modern Warfare is a computer game
02:31:11 <copumpkin> I've always wanted attrition tolerance
02:31:14 <Bike> i wonder if they're actually worried about ballistic missile launchers like that
02:31:34 <copumpkin> now this is a real wartime maneuver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOaGhE_sejI
02:31:35 <kmc> Bike: I think so
02:32:02 <Bike> in syria the weapons mostly seem to be completely psychotic, like slingshots, air-to-air missiles being used as ground artillery, or something called a "hell cannon" which is apparently made out of a tractor and a lack of safety
02:32:10 <kmc> and trebuchets
02:33:05 <Bike> copumpkin: fantastic.
02:33:14 <kmc> weapons of the 21st century: twitter, windows viruses, trebuchets
02:33:54 <Bike> i read an interview with some islamic militia guys today and they mentioned that theyw ere missing various body parts, from unsafe weapons assembly rather than combat
02:34:43 <Bike> copumpkin: also i can't see that game without thinking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h62DArOGbj8
02:34:53 <Bike> possibly because i haven't played it and only know about games from the tubes.
02:35:44 <kmc> i guess those are S-300 ballistic missile systems
02:36:08 <kmc> er no that's a SAM not a ballistic missile
02:36:45 <Bike> oh, those were the ones a russian 747 supposely got shot by
02:36:54 <Bike> russian... whatever. passenger plane
02:36:56 <Bike> fuck technology
02:37:15 <kmc> S-400 Triumf
02:37:34 <shachaf> that video has good youtube comments
02:38:36 <Bike> also see "very fun", for a few jihad jeeps
02:43:02 <Bike> and uh jihad jets
02:43:38 <Sgeo_> Bashir can be DUMB sometimes
02:44:17 <Bike> thanks for that being some nerd thing and not bashar
02:47:03 <kmc> what if i run out of rum
02:47:47 <shachaf> if i like rum raisin ice cream will i like rum
02:48:53 <kmc> probably not
02:52:56 <copumpkin> of the various boozes, rum is not my favorite
02:53:17 <kmc> drinking rum and ginger ale atm
02:53:41 <shachaf> What's copumpkin's favourite?
02:54:08 <copumpkin> well in the past couple of years, my gf's parent try to emboozen me when I go visit
02:54:28 <copumpkin> two chinese liquors that are strong and interesting in my opinion
02:54:39 <copumpkin> wuliangye in particular is very good
02:54:47 <copumpkin> otherwise, I don't mind tequila too much
03:38:49 <kmc> current status: playing SimTower in Wine in Xephyr
03:39:01 <kmc> amazingly SimTower doesn't play well with Xmonad
03:39:31 <shachaf> kmc: You should make kmcwm!
03:40:48 <kmc> Wm. Callister
03:41:08 <kmc> my WM will have a special mode for SimTower
03:42:16 <shachaf> are you talking about that windows 95 allocator thing
03:45:17 <kmc> welp it crashes when i try to save
04:20:25 -!- kmc has set topic: Too weird to live, and too rare to die. | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | I vote TYHJÄ..
04:24:53 <kmc> TYHJÄ. means "EMPTY."?
04:25:20 <Sgeo_> Maybe instead of uploading to youtube
04:25:25 <Sgeo_> I could play with icecast a little bit
04:25:56 <Sgeo_> Hmm, it's mp3 streaming?
04:29:24 <kmc> hmmmmmmmmm do i have any kimchi
04:29:30 * Sgeo_ wonders if it would be possible to have fluidsynth directly output to icecast, or whether I need files
04:30:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Ramyun so good
04:31:47 <kmc> eighth heavenly stem
04:35:15 <Sgeo_> fluidsynth: warning: Ignoring sample *KPianoB5: can't use ROM samples
04:44:11 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to dog.
04:44:23 -!- dog has changed nick to copumpkin.
04:48:44 <kmc> rum status: demolished
04:49:23 <shachaf> kmc is victorious once again
04:52:17 <kmc> he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
05:02:11 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/user/danooct1/videos fantastic.
05:53:54 -!- mnoqy has joined.
05:54:17 <HackEgo> MnOqY: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
05:54:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: you bet everything on hi, don't you
05:55:06 <shachaf> learn some other greetings
05:58:25 <mnoqy> i also know "hey" but i m not so good with "sup"
05:59:07 <shachaf> sup isn't a greeting mnoqy
05:59:12 <shachaf> it's a command to someone to eat supper
05:59:24 <shachaf> it's a good one to have "in your vocabulary" but not a greeting
05:59:33 <mnoqy> shachaf i dont think you ve been around people very much
05:59:52 * shachaf . o O ( <shachaf> yes i have! )
06:00:19 <mnoqy> im also not a "how you doing??" or "howdy" guy
06:00:56 <shachaf> (THAT'S A SUPER MEGA COMICS THING BTW REMEMBER WHEN ALLY DID THAT IT WAS GR8)
06:01:13 <shachaf> mnoqy: those are both questions mnoqy. you only say them when you want to know how someone is doing
06:01:43 <mnoqy> there's also the problem where "sup" means "what's up???"
06:02:05 <shachaf> uh, no, that's "'sup" with ' get it right
06:02:27 <shachaf> but here are some other good greetings:
06:03:16 <shachaf> wait, i think "salutations" is a fruit
06:03:44 <mnoqy> i might be able to get into "greetings".....not "ahoy"...............not "tomato"..."salutations" is a bit awkward..................im not an "hola" or "aloha" guy
06:05:41 <shachaf> mnoqy: but what about "holachaf"
06:05:50 <mnoqy> not everyone is shachaf, shachaf
06:06:11 <mnoqy> shachaf i dont think you ve been around people very much
06:06:24 <shachaf> mnoqy i've been around all people
06:06:38 <shachaf> btw i don t think you ve been around people very much either
06:07:00 <shachaf> "how does that feel, a taste of your own people medicine"
06:09:18 -!- comex has changed nick to TwilightSparkle.
06:09:29 -!- TwilightSparkle has changed nick to TwilightSparkle_.
06:24:56 <shachaf> TwilightSparkle_: I thought that was Gregor's nick!
06:26:01 <shachaf> Oh, it's a character from that show.
06:26:05 -!- TwilightSparkle_ has changed nick to comex.
06:33:52 <kmc> this is a strange channel w/ strange people
06:34:02 <kmc> it's why i feel so comfortable here <3
06:39:30 <fizzie> People are strange when you're a stranger.
06:40:17 <fizzie> A brown bird has made a nest on our window sill.
06:40:37 <shachaf> Don't be a stranger, fizzie.
06:42:22 <kmc> i like birds
06:42:26 <kmc> do you know what kind it is
06:43:41 <Sgeo_> I wonder if I'd react to hearing 'Sgeo' IRL the same way I react to hearing '<my name>' IRL
06:44:56 <kmc> i don't know your "irl name"
06:45:05 <kmc> i know "irl names" for........ shachaf and Taneb
06:45:19 <kmc> elliott hird?
06:45:29 <shachaf> unless that's not the real name..............
06:45:36 <kmc> hird's not unix
06:45:59 <shachaf> mnoqy: is William Parker an actual name.....
06:47:30 <Bike> one time i called a guy i knew from real life but also online by his handle in public. how embarssing
06:47:47 <kmc> at MIT it is v. common to call people by their Athena usernames
06:47:57 <kmc> even among non-computery people
06:48:01 <Bike> yeah but i wasn't at MIT, see.
06:48:34 <shachaf> Bike has a billion usernames
06:48:41 <kmc> em eye tea
06:49:03 <kmc> do any of you know about long-distance moving
06:49:13 <kmc> i think i should use such as pods.com or doortodoor.com
06:49:23 <kmc> pack up my stuff, send it to storage, then i can call for it when I find a new apt
06:49:25 <shachaf> or is that too long distance
06:49:28 <kmc> shachaf: that is a long distance
06:49:34 <kmc> did you have stuff to be moved
06:49:58 <kmc> did you like living in .il
06:50:12 <shachaf> i tend to like living in general
06:50:45 <kmc> does thov love life? then do not sqvander time
06:58:42 <fizzie> But I took a picture of it.
06:59:02 <fizzie> Er, well, okay, I'll get it out of the camera.
07:02:26 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130525-birdie.jpg
07:05:03 <kmc> hm, i don't know what kind of bird that is
07:05:27 <fizzie> I have a "Finland's birds" multimedia CD-ROM thing, maybe that'd know.
07:05:47 <fizzie> (I'm called "fizzie" quite a lot in public, e.g. by my wife's family, even though they don't do IRC.)
07:06:04 <shachaf> Is it pronounced Finnishly?
07:07:13 <kmc> fizzie: huh.
07:07:19 <kmc> also you're married? cool
07:07:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can say. If you type "fizzie" into translate.google.com, set source language to Finnish, and click on the speaker icon, what comes out sounds pretty close to a natural Finnish pronounciation of it.
07:08:02 <fizzie> (I think they've improved the Finnish synthesis recently, it used to be kinda bad.)
07:08:26 <shachaf> That's what I was thinking except for the zz turning into tss or so.
07:08:48 <shachaf> finnish pronunciation is so good
07:08:49 <fizzie> We don't have a native voiced 'z', which probably explains that.
07:10:36 <fizzie> Also we think it might be a female blackbird of some subspecies or another, some of those pictures look pretty similar to it.
07:10:57 <fizzie> "It is also called Eurasian Blackbird (especially in North America, to distinguish it from the unrelated New World blackbirds) --" I mean that kind of blackbird.
07:11:16 <fizzie> (There's certainly enough of those around here.)
07:11:55 <fizzie> (Apparently it's only the males that are black.)
07:16:25 <Sgeo_> :( my intrusive thoughts are now actually blocking out normal, unrelated thoughts
07:16:31 <Sgeo_> This is kind of scar
07:16:44 <kmc> that's bad
07:16:55 <kmc> is it from not sleeping?
07:17:25 <Sgeo_> I've been getting some sleep each night, but possibly not enough
07:19:06 <Sgeo_> Maybe 5 hours a night
07:19:55 <kmc> that's not enough, long term
07:20:14 <Sgeo_> Going to get some sleep this weekend
07:20:27 <Sgeo_> And maybe try to find dinner foods that are faster to prepare/consume
07:22:44 <Bike> http://mchankins.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/still-not-significant-2/ fucking fantastic
07:27:12 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you know any cofree things
07:27:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: in haskell (or othe rplaces i gues.....)
07:28:34 <mnoqy> not really no..........is there a formulation in terms of adjunctions like with free things because imo thats the nicest formulation of free things its so great
07:29:05 <shachaf> cofree means right adjoint to a forgetful functor
07:29:13 <shachaf> just like free means left adjoint to a forgetful functor
07:29:26 <shachaf> i don't even know any other formulations.....help
07:29:41 <Bike> "dual of free"
07:30:06 <mnoqy> well theres an "easy" formulation if you take the adjunctiony version and write it out explicitly
07:30:38 <shachaf> well i meant something that would give me a bit of insight........................i don t kno w
07:31:16 <shachaf> anyway what are some cofree things
07:31:21 <shachaf> what does cofree "truly mean"
07:31:31 <shachaf> cofree comonads are one thing what are other things
07:32:43 <mnoqy> i hear cofree coalgebras are a thing
07:33:38 <kmc> i like mushrooms
07:34:05 <shachaf> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bIPdYcq3LMw/T9hPOeF63YI/AAAAAAAADxg/NUByztXqJPI/s1600/IMG_9778.jpg
07:34:45 <shachaf> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/149890243_d06208bb80.jpg
07:35:41 <shachaf> You know how you look for a picture with Google Images and you spend the extra effort to find a picture that doesn't say what it is in the URL so that people have to go to it?
07:46:34 <Jafet> http://imgur.com/rQZPg0R.jpg
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08:32:15 <kmc> i am become death, the destroyer of rum
08:32:54 <shachaf> did you destroy some more rum
08:33:01 <shachaf> haven't you had enough rumdestruction for one day
08:33:06 <kmc> i destroyed all the rum in the house
08:33:22 <kmc> tomorrow never knows
08:41:04 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:43:12 <fizzie> Went as predicted yesterday: didn't get in. (Plus I think I remembered the PIN code halfway on the way back, to add insult to injury.)
08:56:54 <Taneb> shachaf, was that triplicate welling connected with my decision to learn Agda?
08:57:29 <shachaf> You've decided to learn Agda?
08:57:40 <shachaf> You should teach me when you're done.
08:57:48 <Taneb> Yeah, that's why I mentioned it in #haskell and you responded
08:58:05 <Taneb> Is the #haskell shachaf a different shachaf to the #esoteric shachaf?
08:58:25 <shachaf> I was just greeting you in here.
08:58:31 <shachaf> I'm not sure if they're different.
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10:28:07 <HackEgo> 531) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 572) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 606) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's no
10:28:15 <lambdabot> shachaf says: SIKP, the cheap knockoff book that uses the less-known programming language "skeem"
10:28:29 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
10:28:41 <Jafet> Is GNU tar turing-complete?
10:29:03 <lambdabot> Jafet says: unsafeCoerce takes any argument. AND IT WINS THAT ARGUMENT.
10:29:10 <HackEgo> 812) <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX \ 837) <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt \ 940) <Sgeo> This position is asking for "- Extensive experience with API" <Jafet> You're just not qualified, kid. \ 1033) <Jafet> Is there a debian package
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10:58:46 <shachaf> mnoqy: any progress on becoming a huggier person
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11:12:53 <shachaf> mnoqy: maybe start by hugging some trees
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12:53:50 <fizzie> You can start becoming a huger person by eating some trees.
12:59:28 <mnoqy> imo you'd have to be pretty huge already to eat a tree
13:01:39 <Taneb> mnoqy, what do you think bonsai is for
13:02:01 <Taneb> Eating bonsai trees is the first step on the path to being a huger person
13:18:29 <cpressey> ANNOUNCEMENT ANNOUNCEMENT http://catseye.tc/wsj.html PLEASE READ as it concerns #esoteric THIS MEANS YOU yes you there reading the logs, i'm talking to you
13:22:26 <fizzie> I like the zzo38 reference. A zzo38 review in the WSJ would be especially surreal.
13:22:52 <fizzie> Possibly his conditions would be even more bizarre, though.
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13:23:54 <Taneb> The... Wall Street Journal?
13:26:53 <Taneb> By WWF do you mean the pandas or the wrestlers
13:27:39 <fizzie> Unexpected bonus point: speech recognizers will perhaps start to understand esolangs better. (WSJ is a popular corpus.)
13:29:40 <Lumpio-> my head a splode of the thought
13:30:59 <cpressey> Taneb: I meant professional wrestling but... yeah, i'm out of touch, didn't they have to reacronymize it or something... i'll go look
13:31:09 <Taneb> Yeah, it's WWE now
13:44:03 <cpressey> zzo38 + wsj = all kinds of awesome but it's difficult contacting him on short notice (though i do notice he's started a gopherized mirror of StackOverflow... fascinating.) has he dropped by here recently?
13:44:39 <HackEgo> 2013-05-21 04:58:13: <zzo38> Does GCC have a mode to avoid warnings related to redundancy if they are made up by macros?
13:45:01 <Taneb> cpressey, was HackEgo here when you were around last?
13:46:08 <cpressey> Taneb: yes, and EgoBot too, and lambdabot was in negotiations for being in here
13:46:18 <cpressey> but i never remember what they're capable of
13:46:20 <Taneb> lambdabot has been here a while now
13:46:33 <Taneb> EgoBot has a whole load of esoteric language interpreters
13:46:52 <Taneb> HackEgo is pretty much a Linux computer with access to the channel's logs
13:47:07 <Taneb> And lambdabot is for doing Haskell stuff, mainly
13:47:22 <Taneb> Have you seen fungot?
13:47:22 <fungot> Taneb: formatting and weight-balanced trees). x would reduce to 0
13:47:39 <HackEgo> 108) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. \ 117) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it p
13:48:02 <Taneb> `pastequotes cpressey
13:48:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29632
13:49:21 <Taneb> `pastequotes Taneb
13:49:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25328
13:50:33 <Taneb> ...I really do say a lot of stupid things
13:51:50 <fizzie> fungot: Have you seen cpressey?
13:51:51 <fungot> fizzie: pretty interesting. will go there now. shopping
13:52:09 <Taneb> `pastequotes Ngevd
13:52:14 <Taneb> `pastequotes atriq
13:52:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3268
13:52:18 <Taneb> They are also me :(
13:52:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8841
13:53:28 <Taneb> Have /all/ the atriq quotes been deleted?
13:53:38 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
13:53:44 <atriq> Time to say some stupid things!
13:55:40 <cpressey> I even had a bot in here sporadically once. Oh, it was terrible. Actually, there were two of them. One was written in Lua and the other one was written in R.
13:55:54 <atriq> I once wrote a bot in Piet
13:56:07 <atriq> On a good day, it managed to connect
13:56:13 <fizzie> This is a channel of bots.
13:56:20 <cpressey> just barfed lines and coloured rectangles around, hey?
13:59:40 <elliott> nice I made a 2 omg profit
14:00:12 <elliott> no wonder you can't renew your domains, giving away your wealth so freely
14:00:48 <cpressey> you hit the patch where it "expired on Jan 1 1970" did you
14:02:40 <cpressey> some kind of imbroglio between my registrar and the .tc bosses... i still don't know the full story
14:02:41 <cpressey> it's back up now, though, and you should read this: http://catseye.tc/wsj.html
14:03:02 <elliott> my agents dutifully notified me of this link yes
14:05:02 <elliott> update: i got as far as "It should be held on IRC" before laughing
14:09:06 <elliott> don't WSJ have a lot of web-only blogspammy type stuff nowadays? i can't quite imagine an article on esolangs actually ending up in the print version
14:10:04 <mnoqy> i can only imagine it's a hoax or they don't know what they're doing sooo
14:10:19 <elliott> well obviously they don't know what they're doing
14:10:27 <elliott> but how much do they not know what they're doing
14:10:48 <cpressey> i assume the blogspammy stuff <-> they don't quite know what they're doing
14:11:06 <cpressey> my unicode-fu for bi-implication symbol fails me
14:11:12 <atriq> If I had a news thingy, I would totally interview all the obscure microcultures I could
14:11:49 <elliott> cpressey: i was getting all ready to show off my compose key powers but then i ended up with ←>
14:12:04 <elliott> a lovably pathetic rendition
14:14:04 <cpressey> i was actually reading HN regularly for a while there a few months ago. from context, i gather the interest is an indirect byproduct of "President Obama says Everyone Must Learn to Code"
14:14:39 <elliott> truly, nobody has done more for the esolangs community than obama
14:15:01 <mnoqy> so how deep-rooted is this cluelessness
14:17:08 <cpressey> i hesitate to make an estimate
14:17:24 <elliott> cpressey: so you *are* going to tell them that your IRC nick is "fungot", right
14:17:25 <fungot> elliott: i launch it via the help menus since the help thinks the program in such a way as to integrate properly with multithreading in scheme48.
14:22:41 <elliott> disappointing: no WSJ emails in my spam box
14:23:59 <cpressey> mnoqy: here's an estimate: will.i.am, Chris Bosh, Ashton Kucher, Snoop Dogg, Enrique Iglesias. http://www.code.org/
14:24:51 <cpressey> also Hilary Mason, Data Scientist, believes technology should give us all superpowers hth
14:25:30 <elliott> you've picked up the hth thing already?
14:25:46 <mnoqy> this has to be a joke right
14:26:49 <mnoqy> better teach the kids brainfuck i guess
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14:28:57 <elliott> cpressey: have you been updated on all the other hilarious #esoteric memes, like monoids jokes, and uhhh mnoqy what else has there been
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14:30:01 <cpressey> "Waiter, there's a monoid in my soup!" you mean like that?
14:30:39 <elliott> you can then substitute other things in place of "monoids", refer to things being easy by calling them "monoidal", etc.; for more information ask shachaf hth
14:30:56 <elliott> or zzo. he might have a more enlightening perspective
14:32:06 <mnoqy> hm what else is there
14:32:38 <elliott> mnoqy: was cpressey around for the whole "hi monqy" thing? i forget completely
14:32:55 <elliott> starting to seem like this channel has to be the least funny place in the universe
14:32:56 <mnoqy> i think i;ve only seen cpressey in here once before so probably not
14:33:32 <atriq> There was the "itidus learns lambda calculus" stuff
14:34:15 <elliott> i think cpressey would have liked itidus
14:34:53 <atriq> There's Phantom_Hoover's Tumblr
14:34:58 <mnoqy> was cpressey around when shachaf was Really Weird? that has to be a joke
14:35:10 <atriq> Is that an #esoteric joke?
14:35:37 <cpressey> I don't recall any of these nicks with any certainty: itidus, mnoqy, atriq
14:35:57 <elliott> you've missed out on so much *exciting culture*
14:36:06 <atriq> cpressey, itidus20/21 was a regular on here for a bit
14:36:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13621
14:36:25 <atriq> He would share details of his life and ideas he had, which were all really crazy
14:36:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3154
14:36:36 <atriq> And he really struggled with learning lambda calculus
14:36:51 <cpressey> i asked Phantom_Hoover yesterday if i should be reading his tumblr but he mightve missed that. i searched, but found no tumblr that i could identify as his, unless he's all into cosplay now or something
14:37:02 <atriq> I'm Taneb, and also Ngevd, I think you left just as I arrived
14:37:09 <atriq> cpressey, phantom-hoover.tumblr.com
14:37:27 <cpressey> trust a web search for "phantom hoover tumblr" to miss that
14:37:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10952
14:37:53 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover doesn't update his Tumblr very often
14:38:04 <atriq> 2010-09-06.txt:20:41:21: <cpressey> hi Taneb
14:38:05 <elliott> has phantom_hoover ever updated his tumblr
14:38:15 <cpressey> '“Brainfuck$”. Kill me now.' yep, that's PH
14:38:31 <atriq> elliott, shall I tell cpressey the secret?
14:38:51 <atriq> That Taneb can't have been me
14:38:54 <elliott> i dunno this is pretty great
14:39:33 <cpressey> atriq: were you Ngevd before Taneb? I *may* have a fuzzy recollection of that nick
14:40:15 <cpressey> hm, ok... they all look the same after a while anyway letterslettersletters
14:40:31 <atriq> It went Taneb -> Ngevd -> atriq -> Taneb (roughly)
14:41:39 <elliott> maybe ZOMGMODULES was around at the same time as Ngevd
14:42:22 <cpressey> cpressey = cpressey/catseye/ZOMGMODULES and (exceedingly rarely) DrNinja
14:42:28 <cpressey> bbiab, i have to run to the store
14:53:46 <elliott> cpressey: also, i looked at your github when your site broke in case you'd done a _why and found toolshelf and wondered if you knew of GNU™ Stow™ or Nix which do similar things (Stow in particular) and are both "cross-platform" (although Stow is lighter-weight for that)
14:56:05 <elliott> there is also XStow with more X
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15:18:17 <cpressey> elliott: no, i did not know of stow is it really trademarked
15:18:55 <cpressey> i'd'a thought you'd maybe be more pleased that i forked yaedit for my own awful purposes
15:19:03 <cpressey> since i have you to blame for knowing about it
15:19:11 <elliott> oh I didn't even notice that
15:19:50 <elliott> cpressey: speaking of _why did you see his new printer spool/book???
15:20:35 <cpressey> i have not actually seen the end result of it, but yes, i saw it... transpire
15:21:18 <cpressey> i was reading HN regularly at that point, you see
15:21:28 <elliott> the book is very good. https://github.com/steveklabnik/CLOSURE has all the stuff in a less printer-requiring format if you're ever interested
15:21:35 <elliott> cpressey: my condolences on that matter, also
15:22:05 <cpressey> thank you. it was quite traumatizing.
15:22:44 <elliott> cpressey: oh i literally just now remembered i saw the github issue!
15:23:06 <cpressey> yeah don't tell anyone about my secret career as a rap artist ok?
15:23:44 <elliott> your secret is safe with me, everyone in this channel, and WSJ journalists who look at the logs
15:23:53 <cpressey> i actually think that was three months of HN-reading blowing off in an oblique was
15:24:49 <cpressey> so what's this secret atriq wanted to tell me?
15:25:13 <elliott> are you sure you want to know? it might "ruin the magic"!!
15:25:25 <mnoqy> did somebody say secret
15:25:28 <cpressey> i have to imagine it's pretty monoidal (am i doing it right??)
15:27:49 <elliott> cpressey: so how is befunge-113 [laugh track]
15:28:08 <cpressey> oh now i remember, i was going to read CLOSURE.pdf except us/them had bw/traffic issues and i never got around to it
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15:29:22 <elliott> esolangs.org is a parked page
15:29:46 <elliott> guess i get to send an email off
15:29:49 <cpressey> yeah, ok, 20 year anniversary, ha ha, yeah, well, poo, i'm probably semi-retired at this point
15:30:09 <elliott> wow jeez befunge is 20 years old
15:30:56 <elliott> ok so the good news: esolangs.org is still owned by the person it's meant to be owned by
15:31:41 <elliott> and in the auto-renew period or something?
15:31:57 <elliott> cpressey is this your revenge for me mentioning befunge
15:33:19 <cpressey> please say it expired on Jan 1 1970
15:33:57 <elliott> apparently 24-May-2014 19:21:16 UTC
15:34:00 <cpressey> then i can surmise some kind of miasma-transference from my own domain-name-stability-curse
15:34:03 <elliott> which is close enough to 1970, geologically speaking
15:34:40 <elliott> oh god, every time I go to send an email I'm reminded of gmail's awful new compose interface
15:35:37 <cpressey> mm, have you run into the "you sent it but it's still a draft too" bug yet?
15:35:40 <elliott> i refuse to believe there is a single reason to make it a tiny little window in the bottom-right of the screen
15:37:17 <cpressey> well, you could always complain to Google, i hear their customer service is par none
15:38:33 <elliott> but complaining to #esoteric is so much more satisfying!
15:41:06 <cpressey> actually i'm not sure "par none" is any kind of recognizable english idiom but CLOSURE.pdf is taking all my bandwidth so i can't ask the internet what it thinks about it
15:41:42 <lambdabot> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2451
15:41:48 <elliott> the solution is to piggy-back off IRC, naturally
15:41:52 <elliott> `fetch http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2451
15:41:56 <HackEgo> 2013-05-25 15:41:55 URL:http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2451 [86807] -> "index.html?p=2451" [1]
15:42:05 <elliott> `run w3m -dump 'index.html?p=2451'
15:42:06 <HackEgo> bash: w3m: command not found
15:42:25 <elliott> `run lynx -dump 'index.html?p=2451'
15:42:27 <HackEgo> \ Configuration file "/etc/lynx-cur/lynx.cfg" is not available.
15:42:48 <Jafet> You should only irc on irc.
15:43:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: apparently it is a mangling of "bar none"
15:43:35 <cpressey> that's ok i can just imagine its a page on common misuse of english which explains it's probably a mix of "bar none" and "par excellence"
15:43:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: hi you are involved in the conversation now
15:44:16 <elliott> by Phantom_Hoover i meant cpressey
15:44:25 <elliott> but i guess Phantom_Hoover can tell cpressey the secret of his tumblr now!
15:44:44 <elliott> cpressey: well it's actually a language log post
15:44:54 <elliott> `run rm 'index.html?p=2451'
15:45:11 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Taneb I want to RIP OUT MY OWN PANCREAS for writing 'exersize' on my tumblr
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15:46:22 <elliott> on the contrary, i think he just said it all
15:46:24 <cpressey> unless, uh, that 'exersize' thing was it
15:46:54 <elliott> man, you also missed so many bans! even PH was banned! missing. out.
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15:48:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: was that a dramatic /quit
15:48:27 <Sgeo_> Sam Hughes made boolfuck?
15:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i was going to pull my own pancreas out but then i had a moment of self-doubt
15:48:56 <elliott> PH, I can assure you that nobody here would miss your pancreas
15:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought, "was i really myself when i made that misspelling"
15:49:36 <Sgeo_> elliott, esolangs.org does not seem to be pointing to the wiki
15:50:17 <elliott> Sgeo_: i had to sell it to godaddy for drug money
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15:52:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://catseye.tc/wsj.html you should read if you haven't
15:53:14 <Sgeo_> I think people were recently talking about some language whose pages were down
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15:54:12 <cpressey> if it was on my site then it was but should no longer be
15:54:34 <cpressey> and now the problem has quantum-tunneled to esolangs.org
15:54:58 <elliott> does anyone know how domain transfers work
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15:55:52 <cpressey> in theory, you get some kind of code from registrar #1, then you ask registrar #2 to transfer the domain to themselves, and you give them the code
15:55:58 <cpressey> as for the technicals i haven't the foggiest
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15:56:57 <elliott> well we will see what the domain owner sez
15:57:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: what did you do to get banned?
15:58:25 <elliott> i may have slightly exaggerated the duration of the ban by omission
16:02:14 <elliott> cpressey: also i think i liked, uh, that new language of yours
16:02:49 <Koen_> "I'm sure you know which language I'm talking about. I don't."
16:08:38 <cpressey> I have a backlog of languages stuck in a "i can't call this finished and i can't finish it" state. the last one I finished was called... heh i don't remember. one sec
16:09:12 <cpressey> "Exanoke" which was an honest typo for "example" that i held onto
16:09:36 <cpressey> not terribly terribly interesting but kind of cute if you like primitive recursion
16:10:39 <cpressey> since then i've been coding in JS in an attempt to... make shitty HTML5 implementations of esolangs
16:11:01 <elliott> I could mumble some things about type theory and eliminators and catamorphisms and structural recursion and higher-order Ackermann and what not, but they would be mumbly
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16:15:24 <elliott> oh hey, esolangs.org fixed itself.
16:17:25 <elliott> I wonder how you have to restrict eliminators to get strict primitive recursion...
16:18:41 <elliott> this is reminding me of the fact that there are functions that grow slower than any computable function and that scares me :(
16:19:02 <cpressey> none of that mumbly catamorphism stuff would apply to http://catseye.tc/node/Cyclobots%20%28HTML5%29.html -- you'd have to ask oklopol to do gnarly symbolic dynamics things to answer questions like why does it always fall into a cloverleaf pattern and can you predict how many "leaves" it'll have
16:19:29 <cpressey> i... assume they are... uncomputable
16:20:34 <elliott> cpressey: because imagine 1 - 1/BusyBeaver(x) or whatever
16:20:37 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:22:09 <cpressey> well yes. what's that quote by von Neumann? "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them."
16:22:12 <elliott> cpressey: that cyclobots thing (which in fact I had seen before) reminds me of boids
16:23:05 <cpressey> gah, you always know about one more thing
16:24:57 <cpressey> you're the inductive step of things
16:25:05 <elliott> if it's any consolation I don't even know boids's rules!
16:25:20 <elliott> cpressey: bringing it back round to structural recursion!!!
16:27:55 <cpressey> trying to make some kind of fixpoint joke out of that but my head is starting to hurt
16:28:07 <Sgeo_> What is this cyclobots thing?
16:28:26 <elliott> there is an about button in the corner
16:28:48 <elliott> alt. cpressey's memetic transfer device that he's using to control us all
16:28:51 <cpressey> which should probably be more informative, but there's a link to the main entry from it
16:29:26 <Sgeo_> They've made a figure 8
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16:31:03 <elliott> cpressey: so was befunge originally implemented in visual basic??
16:31:15 -!- alejandra has left.
16:31:27 <elliott> yeah, take that, alejandra
16:32:22 <cpressey> elliott: no, befunge was C from the start -- it's from the amiga era
16:33:18 <cpressey> goes without saying, but i'll say it anyway: i only started doing anything in VB after I got a Windows PC
16:33:33 <elliott> visual basic for the amiga sounds exciting
16:33:44 <Koen_> how long am I allowed to stare at the cyclobots?
16:33:47 <elliott> cpressey: my first PC was windows 3.1 too!! megacorp product buddies
16:33:58 <elliott> did you ever write anything in Wouter's E?
16:34:51 <Taneb> elliott, how the hell was your first PC Windows 3.1? I swear you were only born in '95
16:34:56 <cpressey> Koen_: until you successfully absorb the hypnomessage to transfer all your bitcoins to me
16:35:16 <Koen_> eh, I don't even know what a bitcoin is
16:35:17 <elliott> Taneb: my parents were poor
16:35:39 <Taneb> My first PC is right here, and it has Windows 98 SE installed
16:35:39 <cpressey> Koen_: damn. ok, stare as long as you like then :)
16:35:59 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I ever used 3.1
16:36:04 <Sgeo_> I've used DOS definitely
16:36:05 <Koen_> I was expecting the cyclobots would eventually collapse but those are apparently making a larger and larger shape
16:36:16 <elliott> i have some fraction of a bitcoin but i have no idea where it is so i cannot help make cpressey bitrich
16:36:20 <Sgeo_> There was one game in particular for DOS that I remember
16:36:56 <kmc> someone at MIT or CMU should start a rumor about a Bitcoin club that mined 10,000 Bitcoins two years ago and stashed them in a hidden location on campus
16:37:55 <Sgeo_> "mining Bitcoins" reminds me of BYONDimes
16:38:03 <kmc> what is that
16:38:48 <Sgeo_> Micropayment thing that used to be used by BYOND
16:38:50 <Koen_> how do they choose who to follow? I thought it was random but they appear to always end a making a perfect cycle
16:39:06 <Sgeo_> Could have sworn they had a [fictional] backstory
16:43:13 <Sgeo_> "What are BYONDimes? How do I get them?
16:43:14 <Sgeo_> BYONDimes were part of an e-commerce system that was built into BYOND. Unfortunately we had to remove the system because of widespread abuse."
16:43:21 <Sgeo_> I still want to find their backstory dammit
16:44:27 <elliott> I like this APL implementation of Deadfish. cpressey has been one-upped
16:44:41 <kmc> 'Unfortunately we had to remove the system because of widespread abuse.'
16:44:46 <kmc> who could have possibly predicted this
16:45:19 <cpressey> Koen_: they choose randomly, once, at the start (or when you click Revolution) and it, well, decays into a cycle
16:46:17 <Koen_> yeah but I mean it's not completely random, it's already a cycle when the choose
16:46:35 <Koen_> there are no two bots choosing the same bot to follow, or no independant cycles
16:46:41 <cpressey> well it's a shuffle (like a deck of cards) if that's what you mean, yes
16:47:02 <Koen_> I didn't realize it was so simple
16:47:10 <kmc> what are you playing with?
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16:50:06 <elliott> kmc: http://catseye.tc/node/Cyclobots%20%28HTML5%29.html
16:50:16 <elliott> cpressey: btw these space-filled URLs...
16:52:32 <kmc> so the graph of following is a cycle?
16:53:04 <cpressey> elliott: yeah yeah I'll... do something more mediawikiish at some point
16:53:54 <elliott> cpressey: ok listen. you have to promise me to never describe something positive as "mediawikiish" again
16:55:05 <kmc> now i want to see 100,000 cyclobots as a GPU particle system with bloom shader and such
16:55:06 <cpressey> elliott: understood. i regret how that came out myself.
16:55:31 <kmc> trails for sure
16:55:34 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: um... do you happen to be familiar with a very old comic strip called "Krazy Kat"?
16:59:58 <cpressey> probably nowhere. i just... it's the brick-braining theme.
17:00:27 <cpressey> cat loves mouse, mouse lives to hurl bricks at cat, who sees this as a sign of love in return.
17:00:51 <cpressey> dog loves cat, stops mouse from throwing bricks whenever possible.
17:01:25 <cpressey> you'd be surprised, it's actually a really good comic strip if you can tune into the circa-1919 sense of humour.
17:01:29 <elliott> "Poet E. E. Cummings, another Herriman admirer, wrote the introduction to the first collection of the strip in book form."
17:02:24 <Sgeo_> The author is dead. Along with billions (or more?) of people.
17:05:05 <cpressey> it was quite unexpected, anyway
17:07:26 <Sgeo_> "Even self-referential humor is evident in one strip, Offissa Pupp, having arrested Ignatz, berates Herriman for not having finished drawing the jailhouse."
17:07:44 <Sgeo_> cpressey, sorry, it's just a bit depressing realizing things like that
17:08:12 <Taneb> Remind me to never show Sgeo_ any Virgil or Ovid
17:08:17 <Koen_> definitely more than american billions
17:15:56 <kmc> also you could color the robots in hue order
17:16:03 <kmc> i'm sure you've thought about things like that
17:19:10 <Bike> ? where'd krazy kat come from
17:21:22 <Sgeo_> "I'm instead talking about simple instructions, burned onto physical media, for how to generate electricity, how to build a computer, how to build a router and how to reconstitute the Internet from basic principles."
17:21:59 <Sgeo_> Reconstituting a web browser from basic principles seems.... oh, hmm, I assume that all websites would be wiped too in such a scenario
17:22:11 <kmc> which scenario?
17:22:47 <Sgeo_> An end-of-the-Internet scenario, I guess
17:22:47 <Sgeo_> http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/tech/web/internet-down-eagleman
17:22:49 <cpressey> Bike: Phantom_Hoover's tumblr reminded me of it, what with all the brick-braining
17:23:06 <Sgeo_> Although I don't think any of the four scenarios mentioned lead to a loss of code
17:23:26 <kmc> interesting... i never thought about this
17:24:35 <kmc> it would be interesting to design a computer to be built 'from scratch' in a low-tech society
17:24:45 <Bike> ah yes gotta throw bricks
17:24:56 <kmc> you need a lot of industrial infrastructure to make integrated circuits
17:25:09 <kmc> discrete transistors less so, but still a lot
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17:25:58 <kmc> it's not just a matter of having learned some trick that now anyone can do in their backyard from what's lying around
17:27:26 <elliott> learn this one weird trick discovered by a semiconductor fabricator
17:27:41 <elliott> the circuit design secret intel DOESN'T want you to know
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17:28:08 <Sgeo_> Are vacuum tubes easy to build?
17:28:25 <elliott> ingredient 1. vacuum ingredient 2. tube
17:28:39 <Sgeo_> We just need to build a bootstrapping system, right? Or we need more than just 'a computer' to build discrete transistors and eventually ICs
17:28:43 <kmc> Texas Instruments HATES this one weird trick discovered by a Palo Alto teacher!
17:28:59 <kmc> i think elliott has it about right
17:29:04 <cpressey> i hate it when i accidentally put the vacuum onto the tube backwards
17:29:19 <kmc> i don't think you need super awesome tech to build vacuum tubes, but it's very labor intensive
17:29:35 <Sgeo_> I misparsed what elliott into being "vacuum ingredient" and "tube"
17:29:36 <Bike> Sgeo_: for ICs you'll need a lot of chemical fabrication equipment
17:29:44 <Bike> photolithography doesn't exactly jump out of vacuum tubes
17:29:47 <kmc> you also need a way to get pure crystals of semiconductor
17:30:21 <kmc> i'm not sure how much of an element of bootstrapping there is at this level, i.e. whether a vacuum tube computer is super useful for building a simple transistor computer
17:30:24 <kmc> i think not really
17:30:33 <elliott> underwater internet espionage
17:30:35 <kmc> of course if you want to design complicated CPUs you need computers to do it
17:30:52 <kmc> but not simple ones
17:31:21 <cpressey> y'know, i've never really looked into it, but if Konrad Zuse is to be believed, you *can* make 'em outta relays
17:31:47 <kmc> presumably it's OK if the post-apocalyptic internet is powered by in-order CPUs with 2 stage pipelines
17:31:50 <elliott> that's the funny thing about really smart people like Dr's and scientists, they know an insane amount about very SPECIFIC things, yet that crowds out the knowledge known as COMMON SENSE... no room left... lol...
17:31:56 <kmc> cpressey: yeah you definitely can
17:32:19 <kmc> a lot of early computers used a mix of relays and vacuum tubes, afaik
17:32:37 <kmc> relays are really slow, but more reliable than tubes, is I think the tradeoff
17:32:48 <elliott> sort of feel like if the internet is destroyed in such a way that you'd want instructions on how to rebuild it rather than just patching it back up again, then you are not going to be in a stable enough world to properly build the worldwide infrastructure you need for a proper *inter*net
17:32:54 <kmc> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/
17:33:11 <Bike> i think if the internet was destroyed rebuilding it wouldn't be the main priority, yeah
17:33:52 <elliott> maybe the idea is that thousands of years later when things are less fucked up someone takes an interest in your Building The Internet In 24 Hours For Dummies stone tablet
17:33:52 <cpressey> kmc: cool, thanks. seems like it would be a lot easier to make relays "by hand" than the other options
17:34:10 <kmc> the article says "The Web appears to be the single most important technology that has ever been invented." and while that's sort of true, some kind of internetwork was inevitable given the more fundamental technologies
17:34:27 <kmc> and there were internetworks before the IP-based Internet of course
17:34:38 <cpressey> oh and relays would make a cool clicking noise too, bonus
17:34:43 <Bike> that contest is sort of dumb but i'd still go with fire >_>
17:34:44 <elliott> kind of feel like if something really incredibly apocalyptic happens we should just let them figure out technology themselves rather than telling them they have to do exactly the same things we did
17:34:44 <kmc> the really remarkable thing about the Internet is its relative openness
17:35:15 <Sgeo_> I get scared whenever anyone predicts the demise of PCs
17:35:18 <kmc> which isn't something you could guarantee by just writing down how it's built
17:35:27 <Sgeo_> I don't know of other open platforms...
17:35:32 <Bike> elliott: well it would still be nice to leave them some hints, you know? "pst, we tried the whole nuke thing but imo don't do that"
17:35:38 <Sgeo_> iPads are closed, Androids are closed, Chromebooks are closed
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17:36:04 <elliott> Bike: ok but... since when do we pay attention to Ancient Wisdom about Things You Should Not Do
17:36:16 <kmc> the Internet is so open largely because it was an obscure research project that got big overnight
17:36:18 <cpressey> i... if i were to make such a stone tablet i would only try to put mathematical proofs on it, is that weird?
17:36:22 <Bike> maybe if we drew some sweet pictures
17:36:34 <Bike> included a copy of Barefoot Gen or osme shit
17:36:37 <elliott> (except when those things are e.g. being gay)
17:36:58 <elliott> cpressey: because it's more universal?
17:37:05 <cpressey> i guess what i'm thinking is, i'd rather leave some sort of marker that says, "yes! there WAS an advanced civilization here once."
17:37:07 <kmc> if a future civilization was attempting to rebuild it, knowing what it had been, they would probably try to design all kinds of authoritarian control into it
17:37:15 <kmc> Sgeo_: yeah :/
17:37:23 <Taneb> Carve the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem into a rock.
17:37:27 <Taneb> A very large rock.
17:37:40 <elliott> cpressey: look on my proofs, ye mighty, and despair
17:37:42 <cpressey> it might take them a while to realize "damn! these are all the finite simple groups!" but, y'know
17:37:52 <Bike> well, going off of historical examples of apocalypses, of course one thing is that it's not generally a big simple event that kills everybody
17:37:54 <Sgeo_> Was cpressey ever in Agora?
17:37:57 <kmc> Sgeo_: Chromebooks are pretty open I think... https://sites.google.com/site/chromeoswikisite/home/what-s-new-in-dev-and-beta/developer-mode
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17:38:01 <Bike> the romans just sorta dispersed and became italians and such later
17:38:13 <Sgeo_> (I'm aware that the line in Agora is a reference to something else)
17:38:20 <Bike> and of course influenced the hell out of the northern european tribal fuckheads
17:38:32 <Bike> to the extent of some of said fuckheads later claiming to continue the roman empire
17:39:07 <Taneb> Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire and British Empire have all claimed to be either the continuation of or a successor too
17:39:12 <kmc> Sgeo_: so they're closed by default, for user security, but there's a physical switch under the battery that makes them an open platform
17:39:14 <Bike> similar with the bronze age collapse (which still freaks me the hell out)
17:39:14 <Taneb> ... the Roman empire
17:39:20 <kmc> which is kind of a nice way to do things!
17:39:28 <elliott> Sgeo_: have you not read Ozymandias? it's short. http://www.rc.umd.edu/rchs/reader/ozymandias.html
17:39:41 <kmc> Sgeo_: some Android phones also have rooting as a supported operation
17:39:46 <kmc> at least some of the Google Nexus phones do
17:40:05 <kmc> and even without rooting, most Android phones will let you install non-app-store apps
17:40:10 <kmc> so it's relatively more open than iOS
17:40:13 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/704e80b7dc2df2c76b4951c6217b84bc/tumblr_mlyva0Gpvb1qi4onao1_500.png apocalypse doge
17:40:16 <cpressey> Sgeo_: I'm part of the Agora diaspora. Actually I'm not, I have no idea what y'all are talking about, it just seemed to fit the theme and sounded nice
17:40:30 <kmc> of course there are many parts of the system that you can't easily modify even from a rooted phone, e.g. the OS running on the baseband processor
17:40:36 <Sgeo_> http://agoranomic.org/
17:40:37 <kmc> but the same is true of a modern IBM PC compatible
17:40:47 <Bike> elliott: also ++ for "look on" not "look upon"
17:40:53 <kmc> not quite to the same degree though
17:41:30 <elliott> Bike: i wrote look upon at first but -- sorry -- googled to check my wording
17:42:00 <cpressey> Sgeo_: oh that Agora no i've never been
17:42:13 <kmc> Sgeo_: but I agree with the general concern that the openness of the IBM PC is a historical accident that won't be repeated
17:42:17 <cpressey> but i stand by what i said about being part of the diaspora anyway
17:42:52 <Bike> elliott: still
17:42:53 <kmc> http://hackaday.com/2012/01/16/the-tim-8-is-the-smallest-8-bit-relay-computer-ever/
17:43:27 <kmc> the program is stored on receipt paper :)
17:43:46 <elliott> Sgeo_ did you even click my link.............
17:43:48 <Bike> kmc: historically computers have been fairly closed things for large businesses/military-industrial, yeah? IBM bricolage computers sorta grew out of that, it wasn't like a fluke, was it?
17:44:23 <kmc> it's amusing that on some old systems, a jump instruction would take time proportional to the distance jumped
17:44:37 <kmc> e.g. on drum memory, as famously recounted in The Story of Mel
17:45:06 <kmc> Bike: I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I think the PC was a pretty atypical project within IBM
17:45:33 <Bike> well i don't know about the history of computers to that extent, i'm just wondering how atypical personal computers really are
17:45:36 <kmc> i don't think they put up with third party hw clones for most of their products
17:46:12 <elliott> there were systems more "open" to the programmer than IBM PC
17:46:13 <kmc> "In a crucial concession, IBM's agreement allowed Microsoft to sell its own version, MS-DOS, for non-IBM computers."
17:46:17 <elliott> even if less "open" in terms of clones
17:46:24 <elliott> DOS doesn't compare to a BASIC prompt
17:46:39 <kmc> but what about BASICA!!
17:46:51 <kmc> and QBASIC of course
17:47:12 <Bike> "Once every thirteen years, the population of Finland begins sporing. New Finns emerge from the Earth, fully-formed, in the middle of this nationwide combination mating ritual and feeding frenzy. Avoid Finland at all costs during this period, but also in general." is this true
17:48:01 <kmc> i should get some qbasic up ins
17:48:48 <elliott> we had a qbasic craze here a while ago
17:50:23 <Sgeo_> When I was a kid I had a book that had programs in QBASIC
17:50:35 <Sgeo_> Also the Algebra/Trigonometry/Calculus the Easy Way books
17:50:54 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbnjusltDHk
17:50:57 <kmc> elliott: oh?
17:51:11 <elliott> kmc: yes! everyone with their dosbox installations
17:51:33 <kmc> cool, what was made?
17:51:58 <fizzie> I made a HTML conversion of the qbasic help file.
17:52:01 <cpressey> FreeDOS, with a virtual disk formatted with FAT12 -- that's the stuff.
17:52:05 <coppro> elliott: why is yesod so cool
17:52:19 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html fancy
17:52:25 <cpressey> elliott: i'm trying to wrap my head around _why's prose and i can feel it stretching
17:52:37 <fizzie> (It might have some misconvertered bits.)
17:53:02 <kmc> oh i should contribute to https://github.com/ticklemynausea/gobsprogram
17:53:02 <fizzie> Yeah, it has \\s in place of \s, which breaks some formatted tables, for example.
17:53:21 <kmc> fizzie: nice
17:53:36 <fizzie> (There's also qb.html which doesn't use the "authentic" colurs.)
17:53:41 <kmc> anyone write a scheme interpreter in qbasic?
17:53:57 <kmc> does it have dynamic allocation? garbage collection?
17:54:05 <kmc> i last touched qbasic long before I knew what those things were
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17:58:27 <elliott> dunno about dynamic allocation
17:58:43 <elliott> presumably you can call DOS with enough baroqueness
17:58:47 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should try the whole maverick thing
17:58:54 <coppro> elliott: needs more classicalness, less baroqueness
17:59:04 <Sgeo_> Is it apt-get update then apt-get dist-upgrade, or just apt-get dist-upgrade
18:00:27 <fizzie> It has dynamic allocation, IIRC, via REDIM.
18:01:35 <fizzie> There aren't really any referencey things.
18:01:36 <elliott> kmc: the most surprising thing about QBASIC is that it's incredibly slow, i had to get a pirated quickbasic from an unnamed source in this channel
18:03:34 <fizzie> And of course anything is doable with CALL ABSOLUTE.
18:04:02 <fizzie> People put machine code in DATA statements and CALL ABSOLUTE that.
18:04:46 <fizzie> http://β.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MDhh has an example.
18:05:42 <fizzie> It's all DIM, DEF SEG, READ, POKE, DATA, CALL ABSOLUTE. Very fancy.
18:13:43 <Bike> for future reference, does anybody here have journal subscriptions and enough contempt for paywalls that you'd let me leech papers off you?
18:15:43 <elliott> esolangs.org is broken again
18:17:16 <coppro> I blame the lack of HTCPCP
18:20:19 <Sgeo_> More DS9 or Farscape?
18:22:21 <cpressey> elliott: "all" BASICs have GC, for strings, no?
18:22:44 <elliott> I'd be surprised if QBASIC had a proper GC
18:22:48 <cpressey> Business BASIC does not -- i know this from experience
18:23:03 <cpressey> well, when the string table becomes full, it does a sweep to compact it
18:23:57 <cpressey> for MS-like BASICs... i guess the determining factor is, do you have to DIM strings
18:24:11 <cpressey> or can you reasonably say A$=A$+"!" in a loop
18:24:50 <cpressey> granted, i might not call that a "proper" GC, 'cuz it's only for strings
18:27:21 <cpressey> Sgeo_: i can't resist. What is "the whole maverick thing"?
18:27:57 <Sgeo_> Wait, I think I'm already on maverick, I need to go to the next thing
18:28:32 <cpressey> the bad news is that "the next thing" is AROS
18:29:09 <Bike> nobody, huh? i feel so alone
18:29:23 <elliott> Bike: i can google for papers if you'd like
18:29:40 <Bike> that only works for old ones!!
18:29:49 <elliott> maybe in YOUR shitty field, bilologist
18:30:06 <elliott> also fizzie might??? I HAVE OBTAINED ILLICIT MATERIALS FROM HIM BEFORE
18:30:26 <Bike> haha wow i googled this paper and got some fantastic results
18:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i'm on a campus connection if you're trying to get through paywalls
18:30:33 <Bike> "Cockroaches Are Evolving to Avoid Poison, Will Rule Us All - Gizmodo" yes you nailed it good job
18:30:34 <elliott> if any police/wsj journalists are reading: it was cocaine
18:30:52 <Bike> "Roach Motel Vacancies Explained | The Scientist Magazine®"
18:30:57 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: k
18:31:55 <Bike> i wonder why physics and stuff is more preprinty than biology
18:32:32 <Bike> obviously i should just read vixra
18:33:33 <Bike> "Although some physicists may attribute this to biologists' secretive and competitive personalities," is this you elliott
18:33:50 * Sgeo_ takes the plunge into natty
18:33:54 <Bike> am i secretive and competitive
18:34:00 <Bike> is that what you think of me!
18:34:07 <elliott> now now, biology is only one of three areas of research for which i harbour disdain
18:34:13 <elliott> speech recognition is one of the others
18:34:57 <Bike> is it marxist critical theory
18:35:39 <Bike> Steganography?
18:36:46 <Bike> i can guess plenty!
18:37:48 <Bike> wasn't bayes like an astronomer or some shit
18:37:58 <cpressey> all of modern research rests on stats. i hope they don't suddenly some deep overlooked problem
18:38:09 <Bike> mathematician. CLOSE ENOUGH
18:38:19 <elliott> doesn't most research hopelessly misuse statistics, generally
18:38:24 <kmc> fizzie: cool. i guess if I'm implementing Scheme in QBASIC, i will just have a fixed size array for cons pairs
18:38:27 <kmc> and implement my own GC
18:39:09 <cpressey> elliott: only when it isn't just blatantly biased in the first place
18:39:11 <Bike> elliott: http://mchankins.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/still-not-significant-2/ it's amazing
18:39:30 <Bike> "not absolutely significant but very probably so (p>0.05)"
18:40:27 <Bike> "not quite within the conventional bounds of statistical significance (p=0.12)"
18:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> "a strong tendency towards statistical significance (p=0.051)
18:40:35 <Bike> "not significantly significant but..clinically meaningful (p=0.072)"
18:40:55 <Bike> "on the cusp of conventional statistical significance (p=0.054)"
18:41:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "approached but did not quite achieve significance (p>0.05)
18:41:18 <cpressey> Bike: i'll gladly harbour disdain for economics on elliott's behalf
18:41:32 <Bike> "remarkably close to significance (p=0.05009)" is pretty fantastic
18:41:52 <Bike> cpressey: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/phd_students/backus/girlfriend/why_i_dont_have_a_girlfriend.pdf
18:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> "approaches but fails to achieve a customary level of statistical significance (p=0.154)"
18:42:12 <Bike> i like how that one is fucking three times .05
18:42:20 <Bike> "close enough"
18:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i wish someone had linked me this paper before i went to warwick!
18:43:55 <Bike> i think every university has something silly like this somewhere
18:44:56 <elliott> warwick, more like snorewick IMO
18:44:58 <Bike> http://vixra.org/abs/1303.0028 i forgot that vixra is amazing
18:45:38 <Bike> warwick more like fuckingsuckswick
18:46:22 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: btw this stats thing is actually such a problem that http://www.jnrbm.com/ exists
18:46:51 <Bike> literally a journal full of results that things don't happen
18:47:56 <Taneb> coventry? more like Coven Tree!
18:48:04 <Bike> elliott: wait i've got it. the third thing is: the people who come up with "impact factors" and whatever for journals
18:48:10 <Taneb> Wasn't there a scooby doo movie with a coven tree
18:48:18 <elliott> Bike: ok but those are cute
18:48:47 <Bike> yeah but you hate everything, why not cute things?
18:49:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so warwick's home page literally has a twitter feed excerpt that starts with the fucking university of warwick's twitter account participating in that follow friday nonsense
18:49:42 <Taneb> I'm slightly under six feet tall and have shabby facial hair. I am the cutest.
18:49:42 <Bike> wtf is follow friday
18:49:48 <cpressey> the internet is successfully turning the entire planet stupid
18:49:53 <elliott> tweet other accounts you should follow
18:49:59 <elliott> like everything on twitter
18:50:03 <Bike> wow that's silly
18:50:12 <elliott> so right now warwick.ac.uk literally contains the text
18:50:13 <elliott> #ff @GUSummit2013 speakers @AnthonyMcClaran @MayorofLondon @edparsons @phsmithuk @simon_bradley @toni_pearce @vincecable @krishgm
18:50:17 <Bike> hm let's see what my university is doing
18:50:18 <cpressey> and then you have to tweet your impact factor
18:50:28 <Bike> "911 calls may not go thru due to a phone line problem in the region. For emergencies in Pullman call (509) 332-2521 until further notice."
18:50:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I assume you wrote it while tired and stuck with what your spellchecker suggested
18:50:31 <Bike> pretty fucking boring.
18:50:36 <Bike> elliott: imo, needs more @Pontifex
18:50:38 <elliott> "you know who you should follow? as YOUR FRIEND, I recommend the mayor of london -- university of warwick"
18:50:48 <elliott> fuckt he quotes went in the wrong place
18:51:04 <Bike> holy shit my uni's twitter is boring
18:51:06 <elliott> cpressey: does esolangs.org work for you
18:51:09 <kmc> Bike: 0118 999 881 999 119 725...... 3
18:51:36 <Bike> there's a fucking university rivalry joke in here jfc
18:51:44 <Bike> do you have those in the UK?
18:51:57 <Taneb> Bike, Oxford/Cambridge is the big one
18:52:19 <Bike> you lucky bastards
18:53:03 <Bike> congratulations university you are more boring than @Pontifex's endless aphorisms
18:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a nominal rivalry between warwick and coventry but only on the rare occasion anyone takes coventry seriously
18:53:08 <Taneb> I tried a few minutes ago and it asked me if I wanted to give Go Daddy money
18:53:09 <Bike> We all have in our hearts some areas of unbelief. Let us say to the Lord: I believe! Help my unbelief.
18:53:22 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, is that like the Oxford/Oxford Brookes?
18:53:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i see what you did there!!
18:53:59 <Bike> "We must learn from Mary, and we must imitate her unconditional readiness to receive Christ in her life." dude we don't all have him as a son come on cut me some slack
18:54:25 <Taneb> And didn't that almost cost her her marriage?
18:55:01 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKuHYO9TM5A
18:56:03 <Sgeo_> I hate intrusive thoughts oh so much
18:56:12 <elliott> what kinda thoughts we talkin here
18:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> do you have intrusive thoughts about what you want to do to them
18:56:21 <Taneb> Are these "kill people" thoughts
18:56:27 <Taneb> imo don't kill people
18:56:52 <Bike> This article deals with the phenomenon of life,and shows how can a different approach change all that we know about it.Making the simpliest and most objective assumption that the difference between earth and other planets is just that there is a huge number of chemical reactions near the surface of earth(even a stone travelling in the universe can admitt that, because life means nothing for the stone).These chemical reactions , although ...
18:56:53 <Sgeo_> Intrusive thoughts can be a word, right?
18:56:58 <Bike> ... partially(organism per organism) they seem to have self sustaining and self organizing properties that violate the laws of thermodynamics,when they are seen as a whole, they seem to be more random ,and not violating the laws of thermodynamics.This is very difficult for a person to realize(especially if you are living in big cities), because we see things from inside the whole system, and so it is very difficult to judje objectively ...
18:57:04 <Bike> ... what is life.
18:57:07 <cpressey> intrusive thoughts can definitely be a word
18:57:15 <Bike> it doesn't have to be The Shining
18:58:10 <Bike> This is the first volumn of the primer of algorithm. As is well known, algorithm become center of computer science now. In my lecture notes , I focus on one of the alogorithms, which is called The Recursive Algorithm.
18:59:09 <Sgeo_> On a more pleasant note, jackd2 is asking me some configuration stuff
18:59:27 <Bike> oh gosh somebody came up with a polynomial time 3-sat solver! how exciting!!!
18:59:30 <Sgeo_> Whether or not to enable realtime process priority
18:59:44 <Bike> It is for sure that the algorithm has polynomial runtime, even in the worst case, as the runtime is artificially limited. The question is only if the algorithm does always output the correct result. I suppose it does, due to a proof of correctness that will be shown in this document, and the evidence that an implementation of the algorithm solved millions of test formulae without any error.
18:59:46 <Sgeo_> Says it could lead to complete system lock-ups, but can minimize latency
18:59:50 <quintopia> Bike: it can only solve logarithmically sized circuits :P
18:59:50 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to say no
19:00:11 <Bike> http://vixra.org/abs/1212.0109
19:00:41 <cpressey> a proof that P=NP on vixra. I AM STUNNED.
19:00:53 <quintopia> thats hilarious that they artificially limit the algorithm
19:00:58 <elliott> Algorithm has been well (!) tested!
19:01:00 <kmc> what's vixra
19:01:04 <kmc> other than arxiv backwards
19:01:06 <Bike> kmc: arxiv w/o standards
19:01:07 <elliott> as if testing an algorithm well is surprising
19:01:19 <kmc> i've seen plenty of crackpot stuff on arxiv so......
19:01:26 <Bike> cpressey: mainstream scientists are just suppressing this
19:01:35 <cpressey> peer review is hard and doesn't help anyway
19:01:37 <Bike> kmc: http://vixra.org/abs/1212.0136 it's a higher level of crackpot
19:02:01 <Bike> oh hey, this other one proves P != NP
19:02:02 <Bike> Any NP problem can reduce to P problem, any P problem can reduce to instructions. If NP=P, it violate information entropy principle.
19:03:04 <Bike> Do computers already have human level intelligence? Could they understand and process the semantics of irrational numbers without knowing the exact values ? Human can. How about uncountable sets ? These are necessary to build sciences and real world modeling. Does human intelligence exceed the power of Turing Machine? This paper explains that behavior-based Turing Test cannot measure some intrinsic human intelligence, due to the ...
19:03:10 <Bike> ... bottleneck in expression, the bottleneck in capacity, and black box issue, etc.
19:03:33 <cpressey> yehhhh you know what... i feel bad for NL vs P, and NP vs EXP. they're just as interesting problems, but there they go with that millenium prize and it's all P vs NP, P vs NP.
19:03:53 <Sgeo_> I guess I should restart after upgrade, right?
19:04:14 <Bike> cpressey: i think serious researchers spend appropriate time on those problems. P/NP can just be a honeypot for morons
19:04:24 <cpressey> Sgeo_: i would be AMAZED if you could keep going without restarting
19:04:41 <Sgeo_> The glibc6 wants kdm to be restarted I think
19:04:54 <Bike> at least, that's what i get out of aaronson's blog, i am not a math guy
19:05:04 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:05:54 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:06:04 <Bike> new and improved sgeo, for the new millenium
19:06:30 <Bike> 13 years late but whos counting
19:06:55 <SgeoN1> I was running the dist-upgrade in a Konsole window.
19:07:15 <SgeoN1> Meaning the kdm restart killed the process, I think.
19:07:49 <ion> *cough* tmux
19:07:52 <cpressey> well now you get to find out just how robust dist-upgrade is
19:08:20 <ion> dpkg --configure -a, apt-get -f install, another dist-upgrade should take care of it.
19:08:31 <cpressey> has anyone done a "software tropes" wiki? "now you get to find out" is a software trope.
19:08:40 <ion> (Some of those are probably redundant, too.)
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19:12:10 <kmc> you should run tmux or screen in every terminal SgeoN1
19:12:23 <kmc> my 'launch a terminal' keybinding launches screen
19:12:58 <SgeoN1> Currently using the ctrlaltf1 thing
19:13:58 <cpressey> i think my habit (developed under FreeBSD) is to use a "ctrlaltf1 thing" for anything excessively system-y
19:13:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:14:15 <elliott> for me, ctrl+alt+fN doesn't even work
19:14:31 <elliott> probably some systemd thing I don't understand
19:15:07 <cpressey> "alt" has started to work strangely for me after the latest update... maybe i should totally do the natty thing too
19:17:16 <elliott> kmc: with tmux in every terminal, do you just let closed terminals keep running forever??
19:18:14 <kmc> i close a terminal by exiting the shell(s) inside
19:18:16 <kmc> with ^D or 'exit'
19:18:47 <kmc> but yes sometimes i do have a bunch of junk terminals in the background for whatever reason
19:19:02 <kmc> like if X crashes and I forget to reattach everything
19:19:16 <elliott> i close them with altgr-shift-c (xmonad) a lot, because i run things in them
19:19:22 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/854b1a19fe680c6d0e2b9300a8654680/tumblr_mn687cUjSg1spvwooo2_500.png me
19:19:29 <elliott> and :q<enter>^D or qq^D or whatever are long
19:21:23 <kmc> elliott: oh, well i never noticed how long they are, but i probably will now, thanks a lot :'(
19:21:57 <elliott> kmc: if you're sshing could be :q<enter>^D^D!!!!!!!
19:22:06 <elliott> you probably use ZZ though *spit*
19:23:54 <kmc> i'm with Bike
19:25:13 <cpressey> i find it fascinating that "nerds" carries any weight at all in this channel
19:26:15 <kmc> that's the joke dot gif
19:26:26 <Bike> the thing is that every time i call people nerds, which is of course pretty jokey since i'm saying it on fucking irc, somebody says that
19:27:02 <Bike> whatever imma join #jocks #killallnerds.exe #NASCAR #gunz
19:27:13 <elliott> have you considered Bike...
19:27:25 <kmc> killall -NERD
19:27:26 <Bike> blowing my mind here
19:35:51 <SgeoN1> And don't know if my use of sudo su could be to blae
19:36:11 <kmc> you can do «sudo -i» instead of sudo su
19:36:48 <SgeoN1> Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.PermissionsInvalid: The permission of the setuid helper is not correct.
19:39:32 <kmc> burn it down
19:39:53 <Bike> def. burn it down
19:40:22 <kmc> i think #gunz would be full of nerds too
19:40:51 <kmc> WHY YOU WANT RAIL FOR KALASHNIKOV?
19:40:52 <Bike> and #jocks would be full of workout nerds?
19:40:59 <Bike> oh man that guy is the best
19:41:15 <kmc> for those who haven't seen it: http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/ivan-chesnokov.php
19:41:55 <Bike> YOU LOOK AT FINE RUSSIAN RIFLE, THINK IT NEED CRAZY SHIT STICK ON ALL SIDES OF WEAPON
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19:46:50 <Vorpal> kmc, was it you who suggested a certain Dell monitor?
19:47:17 <kmc> yeah fuck glossy
19:47:26 <Vorpal> only 60 Hz though I assume?
19:47:32 <kmc> i don't know
19:47:47 <Vorpal> I doubt it would be a 120 Hz monitor
19:47:53 <kmc> you could look it up
19:48:06 <Vorpal> I am looking it up, but it didn't say here
19:50:01 <Vorpal> kmc, Huh, reading up on the IPS technology it seems it generally has worse response time than traditional TN, have you noticed any such issues on that model?
19:50:10 <kmc> i don't play games on it though
19:50:15 <elliott> TN response times are just lies usually
19:50:46 <elliott> where everyone claims to have a 0.000000000001ms response time because they sacrifice all kind of quality and have ghosting and stuff and don't actually give that refresh rate in practice or whatever, AIUI
19:50:49 <kmc> http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2412m.htm has testing of lag
19:51:05 <Vorpal> Well as long as I can play games on it without too much issues I'm happy.
19:51:15 <Vorpal> It is a quite expensive monitor so...
19:51:24 <kmc> 'The input lag of the U2412M was very low with an average of only 9.4ms and a maximum of 20ms. This was a very good result and was even lower than the U2410 when using its 'game mode' to bypass a lot of the internal electronics (14.4ms). It was also ever so slightly better than the U2311H (10.6ms). A good performance and no issue for gaming from a lag point of view.'
19:52:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't noticed any ghosting on my current cheap Asus monitor
19:53:37 * SgeoN1 wonders if VirtualBox supports IOMMU shenanigans
19:53:47 <Vorpal> IIRC it does with linux as a host
19:54:09 <kmc> 'I THINK LIVE GRENADE FOR CIVILIAN IN AMERICA IS PROBABLY ENOUGH REASON FOR GULAG, SO IS PROBABLY NO REAL USE FOR GRENADE SPIGOT TO YOU.'
19:54:16 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, With some caveats wrt using the GART not working
19:54:23 <Bike> possible jerkcity ref.? who knows
19:54:49 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, a thingy used by graphics cards mostly
19:55:01 <Vorpal> Don't ask me about the details, because I have no clue
19:55:12 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_address_remapping_table
19:55:16 <Bike> spigot complaining about belgian pistols would be p. great
19:55:23 <SgeoN1> Oh. Well, I wanted it for graphics...
19:56:11 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/33fb29f6b93975f06f99d0146e548283/tumblr_mn4211nqy41snfhwio1_1280.png have you
20:04:14 <Vorpal> kmc, oh great, it as proper physical buttons. I have a Dell monitor at work with touchbuttons on the side (don't remember which model), pretty good monitor, but those buttons activate way too easily
20:04:23 <Vorpal> if you just get your hand even close to it
20:07:18 <SgeoN1> I think Parallels gave up on caring about non-Macs
20:07:36 <kmc> Parallels the company also makes Linux and Windows server virtualization products
20:07:54 <kmc> eg the commercial version of OpenVZ
20:07:54 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:08:32 <kmc> aiui, these were developed by a different company that bought the Mac desktop virtualization company
20:11:12 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:17:37 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
20:18:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: I was Really Weird? When?
20:19:28 <kmc> GATLING GUN OF AMERICAN CIVIL WAR IS NOT OF SELFLOADING SISTEMA. IS TYPICAL CAPITALIST APPROACH OF MORE IS BETTER. INSTEAD OF A SINGLE STRONG BARREL OF PROUD WORKMANSHIP, IS MANY EXPENSIVE BARREL ON WHEEL LIKE REVOLVER. ONE CONSCRIPT HE SPIN CRANK; OTHER CONSCRIPT HE SWEEP ENEMIES DOWN LIKE FIST OF DRUNKEN GOD.
20:20:02 <Vorpal> kmc, where is that from
20:20:09 <kmc> http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/ivan-chesnokov.php
20:20:35 <Bike> kmc: what do you think he thinks of tachankas
20:20:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was probably at http://www.tested.com/tech/pcs/453848-buying-your-new-monitor-part-one-what-get/ where I saw that U2412M recommendation.
20:21:00 <SgeoN1> does is tree a package called yelp
20:21:24 <SgeoN1> Why is there a package called yelp on my system
20:21:47 <kmc> apt-cache show yelp
20:21:49 <fizzie> The Gnome help browser is called Yelp.
20:22:11 <Bike> it's cool how maxim guns were used up through the korean war
20:22:27 <Bike> i guess that's like how syrians are still using stgs
20:22:30 <SgeoN1> Maybe that website shouldn't have stolen the name of the GNOME help viewer
20:22:41 <Bike> i'm sure that's exactly what they did
20:22:49 <Vorpal> Hm I wonder if my current monitor is IPS... It has extremely good viewing angles. But it is a pretty cheap Asus
20:22:56 <kmc> oh look Metal Storm went bankrupt
20:22:58 * Vorpal looks for a model number
20:23:10 <Bike> the million rounds per minute folks?
20:23:58 <Bike> i guess the papau new guinean armed forces just aren't enough
20:24:20 <Vorpal> Doesn't say IPS on Asus page
20:24:28 <Vorpal> So I would assume it is TN
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20:29:57 <fizzie> Generally (at least my feeling is) TN "viewing angles" in the sense that there's an image and it's not obviously wrong color are quite reasonable too; it's just that the colors noticeably change depending on the (vertical) angle.
20:30:34 <fizzie> Also that bird hasn't been in for hours. I wonder if it went somewhere.
20:30:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, Well it doesn't change at all unless I go to maybe 70 degrees off the normal or so on my monitor
20:31:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-05-25#064017fizzie that bird.
20:31:43 <fizzie> (There's an image link some lines down.)
20:32:09 <Vorpal> Hm what sort of bird is that
20:32:19 <Vorpal> I'm no good at that sort of thing
20:32:27 <fizzie> There's a species hypothesis few lines further down.
20:34:14 <fizzie> You can compare e.g. to http://www.elisanet.fi/~y612053/Harrastukset/Linnut/Mustarastas-P-03.JPG
20:34:25 <Vorpal> Anyone know how to use ICC profiles under Linux?
20:34:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, wrong beak colour
20:35:01 <Vorpal> Your bird has a yellow beak
20:36:11 <fizzie> So do some of the other blackbird photos.
20:36:38 <fizzie> But I'm certainly not sure at all, I don't know about birds.
20:40:52 <fizzie> As for color management, I think it's quite a lot up to the application to be ICC-aware, and many do it via LittleCMS aka LCMS.
20:41:34 <Vorpal> Nothing on the GPU level then
20:42:05 <fizzie> There's standalone loaders for setting the graphics card look-up table thingamajicks that (some?) monitor profiles use.
20:42:35 <fizzie> And a root window property for associating monitor profiles with screens, which I think the loaders also set?
20:42:39 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway.
20:42:46 <Vorpal> Know the software name?
20:43:51 <fizzie> I think dispwin is one of the tools. It's from the Argyll CMS.
20:44:48 <fizzie> Also something standalone called xcalib. But I don't have in-depth knowledge of these things, I don't have a fancy enough monitor and/or know anyone with a color calibro-a-meter.
20:46:03 <fizzie> For Gimp you can just configure the monitor profile in its own dialogs, at least.
20:46:20 <fizzie> There seems to be a checkbox for "try to use the system monitor profile", which doesn't sound all that optimistic.
20:46:27 <cpressey> ok, so _why is completely insane
20:46:33 <cpressey> though, i do not mean that in a bad way.
20:53:06 <SgeoN1> Errors were encountered while processing: /var/cache/apt/archives/icedtea-netx_1.2-2ubuntu0.11.04.3_i386.deb
20:58:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re TN and viewing angles, http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php is a good test of it; the text in the image shouldn't have different colors depending on the position on the screen (i.e., the viewing angle to that region); it most certainly does for my el-cheapo TN panel. (Hey, it's quite old; IPS panels were really pricey back then.)
20:59:35 <fizzie> (Though I really should've probably shopped around; the controls on this thing are atrocious, and I think there's some "sharpening" setting that can't be disabled or even configured.)
20:59:58 <fizzie> (Just can't justify doing anything about it until it breaks.)
21:06:15 <kmc> !bf_txtgen Gob's program? y/n
21:06:19 <EgoBot> 213 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>+.>-.>.>---.<+++++++++++++++++.>-------.<<+.++.>----.--------.<.>------.<-----.<--------.>>>.<<++++++++++++.<----------------.>-----------.>>----------------------. [647]
21:07:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a very slight difference, not much.
21:07:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:07:41 <Bike> is bf_txtgen optimal?
21:07:48 <cpressey> ais523: read this http://catseye.tc/wsj.html
21:07:55 <ais523> sometimes returns a different value with the same input
21:08:02 <elliott> pfft, as if ais523 clicks links
21:08:05 <Bike> really, how intereting
21:08:07 <ais523> also, in general, an optimal bf_txtgen requires solving a busy beaver-like problem
21:08:08 <EgoBot> 38 ++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.>. [83]
21:08:14 <Bike> ais523: yeah that's why i was wondering
21:08:17 <ais523> elliott: if they go to catseye, I'm more likely to
21:08:30 <elliott> ais523: http://catseye.tc/warez/Windows_8.iso
21:09:12 <Bike> cpressey: you are a beautiful person
21:09:33 <fizzie> It's a very strict fixed format; +{n}, followed by that single loop (that always has four "terms" for !bf_txtgen, though the underlying code lets you configure that with a command line argument), followed by a sequence of +-<>. without loops.
21:09:51 <ais523> elliott: "more likely" does not necessarily mean "100%"
21:09:57 <ais523> especially because that's likely either a 404, or some sort of ingenious joke
21:10:33 <elliott> you don't like ingenious jokes???
21:10:35 <fizzie> And the parameters (initial number, values of the terms, output printing sequence) are done with a GP thing. One of those outputs is the generation number, I think.
21:11:09 <cpressey> correlation of giving ais523 links and ais523 clicking on them is quasi-significant (p=0.09)
21:11:12 <Bike> i demand an uncomputable algorithm
21:11:35 <SgeoN1> Is that dpkg configure thing supposed to be idempotent?
21:12:03 <elliott> fizzie: you should write a better thing.
21:12:24 <fizzie> Someone spoke on channel about writing a better thing, though I don't know if that happened.
21:12:29 <Vorpal> It would be nice if bf_txtgen tried to remove un-needed > and < though
21:12:52 <ais523> I've given more serious esolang emails, over email
21:13:16 <elliott> guaranteed that any ais523 interview would be edited for length and boredom
21:13:24 <ais523> cpressey: elliott: http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-ais523.aspx
21:13:29 <SgeoN1> About to reboot into Natty
21:13:32 <kmc> !bf_txtgen Gob's Program: Y/N?
21:13:35 <EgoBot> 242 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>+.>-.>.>---.<+++++++++++++++++.>-------.<<<+++++++++.>>-.<.--------.>.<------.>-----.<<----------------------.>>>..<<--------.<-----------.>-----------.---------------.>>----------------------. [643]
21:13:38 <Bike> elliott: uh yeah that's why the letter says to interview zzo!
21:13:40 <ais523> some people from channel 4 tried to interview me once
21:14:27 <fizzie> ais523: You've given emails, over email?
21:14:32 <cpressey> daniel temkin... i think i tried to give him an interview years ago but never actually succeeded
21:14:34 <ais523> interviews, over email
21:14:44 <ais523> cpressey: yeah, he was interviewing some of the best-known esolang names
21:14:48 <ais523> so I'm not surprised he tried to interview you
21:15:05 <elliott> "Here is the edited interview with Alex. Q: What are esolangs? A: Esolangs [...] epistemological [...] Thursday [...] fucking Stephen Wolfram [...] wholly derived from [...] bitchin' [...] except for this last case (and the one after it))))))))))) [...] but not axiomatically."
21:15:29 <ais523> anyway, I need some advice
21:15:38 <cpressey> he's still blogging so if i can compose myself maybe i'll hit him up sometime, see if he's at all still interested
21:15:40 <fizzie> Don't eat yellow snow.
21:15:49 <elliott> Bike: you don't even know how deep ais523's parentheses go
21:15:50 <SgeoN1> Why did I end up booting into GNOME, urgh
21:15:51 <Bike> definitely don't eat brown snow
21:15:57 <Bike> elliott: lisp joke
21:16:11 <ais523> basically, I'm trying to help another computer go
21:16:12 <SgeoN1> GNOME with no panels. Shoot me.
21:16:32 <Bike> `pastelogs )))))
21:16:36 <ais523> basically, what happened is that the Windows partitions on it (two of them, somehow) have been so overrun with something or other that they can no longer be resized
21:16:41 <Bike> well i forget the command
21:16:44 <HackEgo> grep: unmatched parentheses \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21715
21:16:55 <ais523> to make the computer usable, we resized the recovery partition, and put Linux (specifically, Ubuntu precise) on the unused portion of that
21:16:57 * Bike beats head into table
21:17:09 <Bike> `pastelogs '\\)\\)\\)\\)\\)'
21:17:15 <HackEgo> grep: unmatched parentheses \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4933
21:17:24 <ais523> anyway, the point is it has a very low maximum disk space
21:17:24 <Bike> fuck. everything
21:17:32 <ais523> in fact, the package system currently seems to be broken
21:17:39 <ais523> and I'm not convinced there's enough free space to repair it
21:17:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19598
21:18:23 <ais523> also there seems to be some sort of signature error on the kernel
21:18:25 <Bike> wow look at all dem lisp jokes
21:18:47 <Bike> gosh, log from ten years ago
21:19:11 <shachaf> um the world is only 8 years old
21:19:42 <Bike> i thought it was 44
21:19:57 <ais523> and software center keeps segfaulting
21:20:27 <Bike> why the everloving fuck is there this much ski
21:20:40 <shachaf> elliott: What happened to esolangs.org?
21:21:27 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:21:30 <Bike> wow, this is elliott using cl!
21:21:41 <nooodl_> This Web page is parked FREE, courtesy of GoDaddy.com
21:22:27 * ais523 deletes the entire content of /var/cache, then mounts a tmpfs over /var/cache
21:22:50 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
21:23:24 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:23:35 <Sgeo> Finally booted into KDE
21:24:16 -!- joe_____ has joined.
21:24:45 <Sgeo> `welcome joe_____
21:24:47 <HackEgo> joe_____: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:25:20 <ais523> that's a lot of underscores
21:25:53 <nooodl_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2003-09-24
21:25:54 <Sgeo> Any particular reason not to trust do-release-upgrade?
21:26:07 <nooodl_> some of them are rather poetic
21:26:09 <ais523> cpressey: I think my main feedback is that 99.97% seems too high
21:26:10 <Sgeo> Oh, occurs to me that my sources.list still needs to and should be pointing to old-releases
21:26:29 <nooodl_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2003-08-31 lament's twitter
21:26:32 <ais523> not many people esolang at all, so a single female would throw the statistics way off, and I vaguely remember there's at least one
21:26:33 <Sgeo> I like this wallpaper
21:27:13 <Sgeo> ais523, fax/MissPiggy/Iforgetwhatothernamesshesused?
21:27:15 <elliott> there are at least like 4-5 women who have made esolangs or been in #esoteric for a while
21:27:27 <Bike> nooodl_: wow that's... yeah.
21:27:34 <elliott> but it's still pretty depressingly imbalanced
21:27:56 <ais523> Sgeo: I was thinking of someone else, but can't remember who
21:28:03 <Bike> we need an esolang outreach system
21:28:30 <Bike> get the most charismatic to go around to schools teaching lens
21:28:44 <Sgeo> lens is an esolang now?
21:29:19 <nooodl_> i still need to "get into" lens
21:29:22 <Bike> it's either that or brainfuck derivatives sgeo. the choice is obvious
21:29:46 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpVhEgj7tU -- now that's what i call a Real Fast Download
21:29:51 <Sgeo> I think the thing that made me actually notice lenses is mapped
21:30:22 <nooodl_> imo the quintessential esolang is befunge, not brainfuck
21:30:26 <nooodl_> brainfuck is just so boring
21:30:38 <Bike> i'm. hasn't taneb seen it?
21:30:54 <elliott> Bike: no he named it after a spam page advertising an (iirc phony) download for it
21:30:58 <Bike> nooodl_: see. Befunge Fun Hour. we can do it
21:31:10 <Bike> elliott: good etymology
21:31:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:31:45 <Bike> Delicious (T. Ashanti Mozelle) is in charge of maintaining Nora s legacy and tradition by running & managing the shop. The dysfunctional group of hairstylists consisting of Janelle, Nina, Xenobia, Tashina, and manicurists Ming and Ling are still up to their old antics! One day, reality show producer Charles (Miguel Nuñez) enters the shop. Captivated by the goings-on inside, he proposes that Nora s Hair Salon have its own show. ...
21:31:51 <Bike> ... Immediately, the salon crew signs on with hopes of money and fame, but they get more than they bargained for when they learn that Charles has ulterior motives. Now, the crew must come together to see that this reality tape never sees the light of day. Written by Anonymous
21:32:08 <kmc> !bf_txtgen Penus
21:32:10 <EgoBot> 75 ++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>.>+.+++++++++.+++++++.--.>++.>. [702]
21:32:16 <Bike> what the hell is Xenobia
21:32:17 <cpressey> every decade or so there's a female but they never stay very long. maybe 99.97% is a bit high.
21:32:18 <elliott> kmc: using !bf_txtgen is cheating btw
21:32:24 <Bike> is Ming and Ling some racist thing i don't even know
21:32:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:32:35 <elliott> Bike: Xenobia, short for Xenophobia
21:32:44 <Bike> what the fuck, this is a sequel?
21:32:53 <Bike> i thought the 3 was just marketing
21:33:04 <Bike> Jennifer Lewis plays Nora, a young woman who runs a hair salon full of sassy, eclectic stylists.
21:33:22 <Bike> Rated R for some language and sexual references
21:33:46 <Bike> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0883410/ what a mysterious film
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21:34:23 <Bike> our local warez specialist (or "zpecialist") found a rip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpVhEgj7tU
21:34:33 <Bike> too bad this couldn't be advertised directly on a certain wiki!
21:34:34 <elliott> unlike the other two films in the trilogy, Nora's Hair Salon II is a horror art film
21:34:41 <elliott> and shares no characters with the others
21:35:00 <Bike> except Xenobia, dark priestess of the east
21:35:04 <elliott> it was not well received by fans of the original and the third instalment is generally considered a far superior sequel
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21:35:51 * ais523 deletes kernel modules for all versions of the kernel under than the one we're currently using
21:35:57 <elliott> cpressey: see this is how you do it (example from #haskell):
21:35:59 <elliott> 22:34:24 <arkeet> cabal is easy.
21:35:59 <elliott> 22:35:04 <aristid> not as easy as monoids.
21:36:28 -!- joe_____ has joined.
21:36:29 <shachaf> elliott's point is that monoids are easy
21:37:07 <nooodl_> am i the only one who thinks "a female" sounds overly technical...
21:37:32 <ais523> huh, you can resize tmpfses, neat
21:38:37 <ais523> I have 463M available on /
21:38:46 <ais523> and 800M available on /var/cache
21:38:51 <ais523> and yet I'm still getting disk full errors
21:39:19 <ais523> when only 100M is meant to be needed
21:39:35 <kmc> nooodl_: yeah people should generally be called "men" or "women" (or "people"), "female" is more of an adjective
21:40:11 <kmc> calling women "females" is common among chauvinists, "pick up artists" / "mens rights activists" and the like
21:40:19 <kmc> of course not everyone who uses the word that way is one of those
21:40:25 <elliott> and worst of all, cpressey!!!!
21:41:24 <elliott> shachaf: esolangs.org works for me now, maybe it will for you too
21:41:24 <Sgeo> Oh, I don't need to do old-releases for oneiric
21:41:39 <elliott> i got a reply from THE ALAN DIPERT saying he'll sort it out so hopefully all will be well soon!
21:42:32 <shachaf> "men" and "women" has age connotations
21:42:38 <kmc> it's hard to estimate gender ratios in online technical communities, because people are assumed to be male by default, and if you correct them it's all WHY ARE YOU FORCING YOUR RADICAL FEMINIST AGENDA ON US and then the rape and death threats
21:42:45 <kmc> i don't think we would do that
21:42:57 <kmc> but it's a reason why some women prefer not to be "out" as women online
21:43:17 <Bike> i should find a biologist chatroom and see what it's like
21:43:21 <Bike> since the community is mostly female
21:43:44 <kmc> what's the ratio?
21:44:05 <Bike> not much over 50/50, lemme check
21:44:28 -!- joe_____ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:44:49 <Bike> (it's cool how if you google "nsf gender ratios" you get a bunch of stuff on sexual development in nonhumans)
21:45:38 <kmc> i demand to know whether male nonhuman primates or female nonhuman primates are better at programming computers
21:46:10 <shachaf> which gender of compiler generates better code
21:46:12 <kmc> \rainbow{evolutionary psychology}
21:46:21 <kmc> shachaf: is 'compiler' a male or female noun in hebrew
21:46:27 <Bike> http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf12311/ gives 1.8/1.2 in favor of women, versus e.g. 16.6/9.3 for men in CS and math
21:47:29 <Bike> social sciences are also female-dominated, while physics is still male-dominated
21:47:47 <Bike> engineers is given as 16.4/4.2 which is pretty crazy
21:48:14 <shachaf> what about political economy
21:49:02 <Bike> I don't know if that counts as "science and engineering" so much as "twainbait"
21:49:26 <cpressey> wait wait wait Real Fast Nora is a FILM? I was so SURE it was a casual game of the resource management genre
21:49:37 <cpressey> i mean it sounds like one, doesn't it? doesn't it?
21:49:38 <Bike> i actually thought the same thing
21:49:42 <Bike> which is weird
21:50:25 <kmc> the gender ratio in open source and online software communities is also a lot more skewed than the gender ratio among professional programmers
21:51:06 <cpressey> nooodl_: i'm trying not to be speciestist.
21:51:34 <shachaf> I try not to be too speciesist but it's hard.
21:51:49 <kmc> remember everyone, open source is a pure meritocracy that in no way drives away particular kinds of people
21:52:41 <ais523> kmc: I've noticed the gender ratio in computer science get closer to even over time, even just in the four years I was teaching there
21:52:57 <Bike> this reminds me that i'm not good enough at websurfing to figure out how to get the US BLS to tell me how most people in the US are employed
21:53:02 <Bike> because i really don't know...
21:53:11 <kmc> i already lost the link to the qbasic online docs :(
21:53:29 <ais523> that is, among students
21:53:37 <kmc> oh http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html
21:54:03 <fizzie> The "c" is for colors.
21:54:17 <Bike> wow this is long
21:57:58 -!- Bike_ has joined.
21:58:25 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:58:28 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:01:24 -!- mnoqy has joined.
22:02:56 <elliott> kmc: you should implement deadfish in qbasic, although i guess it probably already has been
22:04:13 <FreeFull> You should implement Haskell in qbasic
22:04:51 <Bike> implement qbasic in deadfish
22:05:00 <kmc> what's deadfish
22:05:27 <Bike> that thing that squares numbers and sucks
22:06:04 <FreeFull> By the way, what happened to the esolangs wiki ):
22:08:06 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:09:05 <cpressey> esolangs.org totally works for me. i suspect i'm on a different internet from everyone else
22:10:05 <cpressey> Bike_: the internet doesn't seem to know what "twainbait" means & neither do I
22:10:25 <Bike_> yo shachaf help him out
22:10:29 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:10:31 <cpressey> Mark Twain - "When you fish for love, bait with your heart, not your brain."
22:10:31 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:11:16 <fizzie> Someone should perhaps solve the DNS cache coherency problem, it's nonsensical when things work for some people but not for others.
22:11:49 <Bike> cpressey: anyway shachaf was referring to a short story he linked yesterday, titled Political Economy, by Twain
22:12:18 <elliott> Bike: you realise you said twainbait not shachaf right
22:12:33 <fizzie> Huh, there's a Nintendo 3DS version of VVVVVV around? The strangest.
22:13:04 <Bike> elliott: yeah but i'm approximately utterly unconcerned with making sense wrt shachaffing
22:13:17 <Sgeo> Why is xset trying to open display ""
22:13:27 <Bike> because that's the best display
22:13:36 <Sgeo> Does this upgrade need to be running with communication to an X server for some odd reason?
22:13:41 <cpressey> Bike: thanks. my brain is still recovering from _why's thing, so i'll read it tomorrow
22:13:45 <Bike> i suppose next you'll be wonering about MIT MAGIC COOKIEs
22:13:53 <Sgeo> It did ask me which ... thing (gdm kdm etc.) I wanted as default
22:14:21 <Bike> sgeo i think making sense of desktop environments is hopeless and don't
22:14:51 <Sgeo> I just don't know if that's related to it trying to do X stuff
22:15:06 <shachaf> Bike: I make sense in other channels!
22:15:32 <shachaf> Why don't you /join #haskell and see for yourself?
22:15:43 <Bike> sounds like a sucky place
22:15:54 <shachaf> It's the worst thing in the world.
22:16:17 <Bike> i hear elliott ops there but still hasn't /cs clear users'd
22:17:45 <shachaf> whoa i didn't know about /msg chanserv clear users
22:17:54 <shachaf> why must you put this temptation in my path
22:18:03 <Bike> I'm a kingmaker.
22:18:13 <Bike> where 'king' is a euphemism for space madness
22:19:16 <Sgeo> There are Mafia-variant games with kingmakers
22:22:17 <Bike> there's a country iin southeast asia called Vietnam
22:22:57 <elliott> cpressey: has boily asked you the question yet by the way
22:23:01 <FreeFull> Why doesn't someone do that here
22:23:30 <Vorpal> kmc, I'm considering going for a H-IPS monitor instead, I identified the one at work as a U2410, and I really like it. Seems that is an old model though. Ever used a U2413, which seems to be the current replacement for that
22:24:23 <Vorpal> It is a bit expensive though
22:24:45 <Vorpal> But 6-bit + FRC sounds annoying.
22:27:24 <cpressey> elliott: no, boily has not asked me any questions in fact, and i doubt i would be able to discern The Question from a randomly selected question
22:27:32 <elliott> cpressey: I am sure you would
22:27:59 <mnoqy> which question is this now
22:28:12 <elliott> mnoqy: you know, the one boily asks
22:28:46 <shachaf> have i been asked this question
22:28:51 <cpressey> if it's anything like Phantom_Hoover's secret...
22:29:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover will take his secret to the grave
22:29:15 <Bike> why do i know this question and not shachaf and mnoqy what is happening
22:29:23 <elliott> btw I would say it's not specifically his secret
22:29:30 <elliott> secret pertaining to phantom hoover
22:30:08 <cpressey> kmc: that's a good point about assuming-male-by-default; I'm now wondering how many esolang designers have gone by an alias and I've never confirmed the gender of
22:33:54 <kmc> Vorpal: no I haven't used the U2413 or U2410
22:34:07 <kmc> any particular reason for going with H-IPS?
22:34:15 <kmc> and can you get a 24" H-IPS for $300?
22:34:26 <kmc> btw I hear there are these amazing cheap monitors from Korea
22:34:29 <kmc> on ebay or whatever
22:34:34 <kmc> there are whole web forums devoted to them
22:34:37 <Vorpal> kmc, but since I'm considering dual monitor in that case...
22:35:18 <Vorpal> kmc, I read a bit about that, one guy complained about electronic whining. That scares me. I can't stand that, plus I have above average hearing so...
22:35:23 <Vorpal> Nope, not taking that risk.
22:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <cpressey> if it's anything like Phantom_Hoover's secret...
22:35:42 <Vorpal> kmc, It is either dual U2412M or single U2413
22:35:58 <cpressey> if god is here, i have a question for him/her/it, namely, when you made the moon why did you put a rabbit in it that you can only see when it's full and when you tilt your head to the right?
22:36:36 <cpressey> i think i prefer the mystery for that one.
22:36:56 <mnoqy> well just think....if you were god.....wouldnt you have done it too
22:36:58 <Vorpal> kmc, since the U2412M has a 6-bit panel + FRC I'm a bit worried
22:37:02 <Vorpal> kmc, is that noticable?
22:37:14 <myname> if i wouldn't hate IO in prolog, i'd provide an implementation of deadfish in it
22:37:25 <shachaf> alt. who cares about the moon, there are billions of other moons
22:37:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's the one about your tumblr, for the record
22:38:05 <Bike> little known fact: cpressey's moonjob there is actually true of all moons
22:38:24 <mnoqy> i thought the tumblr secret wasnt secret at all
22:38:30 <elliott> cpressey: do you prefer the mystery for the god question or the ph question
22:38:36 <Bike> is the tumblr secret that it's actually written by taneb
22:38:50 <shachaf> spill the beans Phantom_Hoover
22:38:55 <mnoqy> Bike: dont worry thats the one thats not secret at all
22:39:56 <elliott> cpressey: also re: god, moon, rabbits: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/White-Rabbit-making-elixir-of-immortality.jpg
22:40:04 <elliott> "The mythological white hare making the elixir of immortality on the Moon, from Chinese mythology. Embroidered onto 18th-century Imperial Chinese robes."
22:41:05 <cpressey> elliott: yeah, sadly, that is where i learnt of it, and i was like, i know there's a man in the moon, but a rabbit, nuh-uh, and then i tilted my head to the right and i was like DAMN
22:41:19 <Bike> imo gunnerkrigg should be wear you learned about it
22:41:31 <elliott> cpressey: man i worked to find that image
22:41:36 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Man_in_the_Moon_with_key.jpg conclusive evidence
22:41:49 <cpressey> elliott: er well not that image precisely -- i meant wikipedia
22:42:21 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Man_In_The_Moon2.png more evidence (also conclusive)
22:42:47 <elliott> i still love how terrible that last one is
22:43:15 <Bike> https://bitcoinstarter.com/
22:43:32 <mnoqy> Bike is that crowdfunding with bitcoins
22:43:49 <mnoqy> project categories: NSFW
22:44:09 <mnoqy> Starting an Adult/Porn 3D Virtual Reality company
22:44:29 <mnoqy> Bitcoin Mining for Local School Programs
22:44:45 <Koen_> I thought it was a mare in the moon
22:45:35 <mnoqy> im with elliott here
22:46:27 <cpressey> ... so it's actually written by Taneb? I'd believe that, it would explain why Taneb cared if I had read it or not.
22:47:17 <elliott> cpressey: IMO the part where he said "@tell Taneb I want to RIP OUT MY OWN PANCREAS for writing 'exersize' on my tumblr" and then quit was a bit of a giveaway
22:47:43 <Koen_> oh, Phantom_Hoover updated his tumblr?
22:48:53 <kmc> Vorpal: i don't know what 6-bit panel + FRC means, so I think it's not noticable
22:48:53 <nooodl_> guys http://i.imgur.com/42sR2OD.png
22:49:01 <Bike> i dunno elliott, i'd rip out my pancreas for that 2
22:49:07 <kmc> i don't use it for anything super demanding
22:49:12 <Bike> nooodl_: awesome
22:49:16 <kmc> i read websites and code and irc
22:49:24 <Bike> it's like dumbass minesweeper
22:49:49 <kmc> haha that owns
22:49:54 <nooodl_> maybe i'll make something like rubicon for befunge
22:50:24 <kmc> Rob Ford Crackstarter is up to $172,756 of $200,000 with 56 hours left
22:51:17 <Vorpal> <kmc> Vorpal: i don't know what 6-bit panel + FRC means, so I think it's not noticable <-- that each colour only has 64 brightness levels, and it uses "temporal dithering" to emulate a full 256 levels
22:51:31 <Vorpal> So it quickly switches back and forth
22:51:34 <kmc> what's the speed on that temporal dithering
22:51:47 <Vorpal> I don't know, that is why I'm asking if you noticed anything
22:51:51 <kmc> no i didn't
22:51:58 <Vorpal> I did search a bit but couldn't find any speed info
22:52:07 <kmc> look this is a high end Dell business monitor and it gets good reviews everywhere
22:52:09 <Koen_> nooodl_: what have you done and where can I purchase that
22:52:21 <kmc> I don't think it's going to have some glaring flaw; I certainly haven't noticed one
22:52:53 <Vorpal> kmc, right, but it is an expensive piece of equipment, so I'm reading multiple reviews and asking people who I know who used it before buying it
22:53:02 <fizzie> The quoted contrast numbers for monitors are something really absurd these days. Like this one, it says 80000000:1.
22:53:12 <Vorpal> I'm always this careful when buying expensive electronics
22:53:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:54:15 <cpressey> nooodl_: the last time i saw something like that it was http://wimrijnders.nl/other/befunge.html but it didn't have the iconery
22:54:16 <Taneb> I need confirmation of a random fact I saw on Tumblr about the Finnish language
22:54:16 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://en.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1f0xmo/liberty_reserve_shut_down_for_money_laundering/ca5qix5
22:54:32 <Koen_> Taneb: I need the url to Phantom_Hoover's tumblr
22:54:34 <Taneb> What's the equivalent idiom in Finnish to "fits like a glove"?
22:54:42 <Taneb> Koen_, taneb.tumblr.com
22:54:59 <Koen_> no there was "phantom" and "hooover" in it I'm sure
22:55:30 <Taneb> Try sgeo.tumblr.com
22:57:40 <cpressey> ack, do you all have tumblrs now?
22:57:59 <Sgeo> sgeo.tumblr.com is genuinely mine.
22:58:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: what was the point of that link
22:59:17 <Bike> making fun of people
22:59:17 <fizzie> Taneb: Fits like a (fist in the (eye|face)|nose in the face).
22:59:26 <Koen_> Taneb: thanks now I know hot to break out of a ziptie
22:59:28 <Bike> oh sweet is that real
22:59:29 <Phantom_Hoover> it was the latest update in the "MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN" series
22:59:31 <Taneb> fizzie, wow, Tumblr was right
22:59:33 <Bike> imo beautiful language
22:59:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: i take this to mean you are mocking the content of this channel
23:00:13 <Taneb> cpressey, this channel is on topic about once a fortnight now
23:00:49 <fizzie> Taneb: Though I'm not sure the connotations are quite "fits like a glove", it's more like "this thing is well suited to the place it's in or the use it is put to", or some-such. But it's an idiom, anyway.
23:01:12 <Taneb> fizzie, same with "fits like a glove"
23:01:35 <Koen_> fits like a glove in your nose
23:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, not really, fits like a glove is mostly referring to actual physical fitting
23:02:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, really? I rarely hear it used non-ironically for that
23:02:58 <Bike> you think? i wouldn't say so, phantom
23:03:10 <Bike> 'he fits that job like a glove' or w/e
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23:03:35 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:03:58 -!- nooodl has joined.
23:03:59 <cpressey> i'll go with PH here, every use of 'fits like a glove' that i can think of outside apparel sounds weird to me right now
23:04:40 <cpressey> the director's use of bach as background music for this scene fits like a glove
23:04:57 <mnoqy> im sure lots of things fit like gloves
23:05:03 <mnoqy> toe socks, for instance
23:05:12 <mnoqy> or are those more like finger mittens
23:06:03 <kmc> the german word for "glove" is "Handschuh"
23:06:14 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:06:28 <Koen_> what's a handsock then?
23:06:30 <fizzie> The Finnish word for glove is "hanska".
23:06:44 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:07:17 <fizzie> Or perhaps "hansikas" if you feel formal, but that contraction is quite common.
23:07:31 <Koen_> the english word for glove is "glove" didn't I just blow your mind?
23:07:34 <kmc> wikipedia says "käsine"
23:07:48 <fizzie> "käsi" would be "hand".
23:09:12 <Taneb> What would be Finnish for Handshoe?
23:10:20 <fizzie> "käsineen" is either "with his/her/its hands" or the possessive form "glove's".
23:10:35 <fizzie> Thanks to the comitative case.
23:10:43 <fizzie> (Which has a -ne suffix.)
23:10:59 <Koen_> I can't decide whether I'm sad or happy than french dropped declinations
23:11:02 <fizzie> Plural third person singular comitative, or something.
23:11:18 <Koen_> is plural singular a thing in finnish?
23:11:31 <Taneb> Koen_, I'm pretty sure Finnish has more declensions than anyone else
23:11:39 <fizzie> Or, actually, that was right.
23:11:59 <Taneb> fizzie, do native Finnish speakers do all these messed up endings instinctively?
23:12:01 <fizzie> It's the plural for hand, singular for whose hands it is.
23:12:20 <Koen_> Taneb, but do they concatenate words like German and Dutch?
23:12:36 <Taneb> Koen_, I believe they concatenate word endings
23:12:39 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes, which makes it kind of hard to actually think about them.
23:12:57 <Taneb> fizzie, would it be like me thinking about how "bough" is pronounced?
23:13:24 <Taneb> Hint: it rhymes with sow and bow, not sow and bow
23:13:34 <Koen_> Taneb: well technically french does that too. "feminine plural" forms are usually the masculine singular form, followed by the feminine ending, followed by the plural ending
23:14:00 <Bike> no, i like it better how it is
23:14:34 <Taneb> The plural of goose is geese, the plural of moose is...
23:15:16 <Taneb> All other languages are weird because they take one thing and stick with it
23:15:21 <fizzie> Doing the comitative for multiple hands for all the six (first, second, third) person (singular, plural) choices doesn't really come out all that instinctively, actually. It's not exactly all that common.
23:15:29 <Taneb> English is weird because we did the exact opposite
23:15:54 <Bike> english is really not weird for having exceptions to grammatical rules
23:17:24 <fizzie> Käsineni, käsinesi, käsineen, käsinemme, käsinenne, käsineen. Maybe.
23:17:28 <Koen_> are you really saying that French follows rules without exceptions
23:17:33 <Koen_> are you really saying that?
23:17:41 <Taneb> Koen_, French isn't that weird, most of the time
23:18:14 <Bike> i mean for example look at the conjugation of the copula in any language with it
23:18:36 <Taneb> English has at least seven different ways of forming the plural
23:18:37 <Koen_> the plural of hibou is hiboux, the plural of chou is choux, the plural of caillou is cailloux, etc... but actually most -ou words have plural -ous
23:18:45 <HackEgo> myynivisittamisse kiehätäislamme monistavimmaksenäjä kysyttämista verbeilevimme eteetta laamalle kullaanne huuteeltäni sykkäymiimme
23:19:11 <Koen_> the plural for cheval is chevaux, the plural for animal is animaux, but actually most -al words have plural -als
23:19:12 <fizzie> "monistavimmat": those who copy things the most, approx.
23:19:34 <fizzie> With the "xerox" sense of copy.
23:20:17 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, at least with Latin it doesn't lull you into a false sense of security with "all words use -s as the plural"
23:20:29 <Koen_> Taneb: right now I'm not even sure whether the correct plural is "corails" or "coraux"
23:21:04 <Bike> i think out of all scientists i feel the most sorry for linguists because they get this crap all the time
23:21:34 <Taneb> Then years later "Oh, this word stays the same in the plural. This word changes its vowel sound. This word gains three letters. This changes its final consonant sounds and gets an s. This chages to an -i. This changes to an -ae. This changes to an -a. This changes to an -odes."
23:21:50 <Bike> right like that
23:22:11 <Taneb> Sorry, pluralization makes me angry.
23:22:30 <Bike> i'm just sayin', everything's terrible
23:36:41 <Taneb> On another not entirely
23:36:51 <Taneb> Has anyone told cpressey about the Hexham coincidence
23:39:41 <elliott> are we sure he can handle it
23:41:46 <Taneb> elliott, could you handle it, when you found out?
23:41:51 <Taneb> I certainly couldn't
23:45:07 <kmc> http://angelhack.com/ elliott make fun of this, i'm too lazy
23:45:25 <kmc> you can try solving the LEET HACKER puzzle on http://angelhacknyc.eventbrite.com/ for a free ticket (worth $75)
23:46:17 <elliott> kmc: fuck fuck fuck poop poop poop shit and their grammar is wrong
23:47:27 <Bike> this is the big leagues
23:47:49 <Bike> i don't see the puzzle. is the puzzle finding the puzzle under all this crap
23:48:01 <kmc> "Free Developer Ticket Code:"
23:48:11 <Bike> "Previous winners include: Microryza, Osper, Testlio, TapFame, WeFunder, Kloutron, & Airpost" n ever heard of any of these and they sound like dr seuss characters
23:48:31 <kmc> Microryza is like a KICKSTARTER for SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH
23:48:32 <Bike> is that. fucking binary
23:49:11 <kmc> Osper is a BANK for CHILDREN
23:49:19 <kmc> Testlio is an ODESK for SOFTWARE TESTING
23:49:38 <Bike> i don't know what odesk is either
23:49:40 <Bike> this is hard kmc
23:49:50 <Bike> A description for this result is not available because of this site's robots.txt – learn more. ok well osper's looking good
23:49:53 <kmc> TapFame is a DESIGN PORTFOLIO for MOBILE APP DEVELOPMENT
23:50:01 <elliott> kloutron is a ROBOT for KLOUT
23:50:08 <kmc> WeFunder is a KICKSTARTER for STARTUPS
23:50:19 <elliott> a kickstarter for kickstarter clones
23:50:37 <Bike> holy fuck these are actual descriptions
23:50:56 <elliott> apparently barack obama has 99 klout
23:51:04 <ion> #esoteric is like an IRC CHANNEL for PEOPLE
23:51:05 <elliott> which makes me wonder what the fuck you need to do to get 100 klout
23:51:06 <kmc> KlouTron is an EXERCISE GAME for IPAD
23:51:25 <Bike> "Can photons whisper loud enough to detect cancer?" darn and here i was thinking microryza might be a good idea
23:51:44 <Bike> "Physical experience of emotion: an early marker of Parkinson's Disease?" what on earth
23:52:02 <Bike> god knows academia is a fucking broken system but i don't think this is gonna help
23:52:19 <Bike> "Do coal and diesel trains make for unhealthy air?"
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23:53:02 <Bike> haha the photon one turns out to be "Micro-optical sensor for cancer screening" when you actually click on it
23:53:24 <kmc> i like the idea of doing a kickstarter on actual kickstarter to build a kickstarter clone for kickstarting more kickstarter clones
23:54:08 <ion> `run words --english 20 | ghc -e 'interact (unlines . map reverse . lines)' | hyphenate.fi | ghc -e 'interact (unlines . map reverse . lines)'
23:54:13 <Bike> kickstartest, we'll call it
23:54:26 <ion> `run words 20 | ghc -e 'interact (unlines . map reverse . lines)' | hyphenate.fi | ghc -e 'interact (unlines . map reverse . lines)'
23:54:35 <Bike> that's p. angocentric, words
23:54:37 <HackEgo> myt-e frig-en-der klot-tiav-y-ap cet-en raj-har mow dub-ett kak-kan wes-sem-ba che gjre fran-tit-u mes-us-son mal-ted seil mon-a the an-nin-el depl kan
23:55:18 <Bike> klottiavyap doesn't seem very english
23:55:49 <ion> `run </etc/motd ghc -e 'interact (unlines . map reverse . lines)' | hyphenate.fi | ghc -e 'interact (unlines . map reverse . lines)'
23:55:56 <HackEgo> bash: /etc/motd: No such file or directory
23:57:03 <kmc> klottiavyapstarter
23:57:21 <fizzie> `run words 10 # "--eng-1M" is what the default option is called.
23:57:25 <HackEgo> acea trulari zemlie advanging tjieux elekt war zimummunearnam pure portulant
23:57:41 <kmc> aw none of you solved the puzzle, that undercuts my plan to make fun of how easy it is
23:57:42 <fizzie> The Tomb of Zimummunearnam.
23:58:41 <fizzie> The esolangs name generation of `words tends to work unreasonably well, every time I've used it.
23:58:42 <Bike> kmc: i id those in middle school man
23:58:44 <Bike> i'm too elite now
00:02:21 <HackEgo> 4dl bf-pda track rainfuck var q-bal cleaseporient suff puzzlang bit
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00:03:12 <elliott> kmc: you didn't tell me where the puzzle is
00:03:21 <fizzie> (bf-pda and rainfuck are of course brainfuck derivatives. Probably a couple of the others too.)
00:03:24 <kmc> i tried but you can't fucking read elliott
00:03:43 <Sgeo> "There is no i in illiterate"
00:04:02 <elliott> i almost want to get it now
00:05:20 <kmc> github has syntax highlighting for brainfuck
00:05:47 <elliott> omg barack actually has a klout of 98
00:06:03 <elliott> Barack's Topics: [...] Barack Obama [...]
00:06:46 <fizzie> kmc: Also for Befunge. ("primary_extension:.befunge"? What the.)
00:06:53 <Koen_> can we stop talking about that O'Bama fellow I'm fed up with all those irish people
00:07:16 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't have syntax highlighting, though; but it's a "known language".
00:07:46 <fizzie> "All languages have an associated lexer for syntax highlighting" well then.
00:07:53 <nooodl> ive solvede the puzel :)) :)
00:20:43 <Bike> http://suspiriadeprofundis.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Comet.jpg
00:22:11 <elliott> oh boy, this is about mencis moldbug?
00:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i've heard something about neo-reactionists somewhere...
00:22:41 <Bike> wait do actually know who moldbug is
00:24:18 -!- tswett has changed nick to beeeeeeeeees.
00:24:38 <Bike> i know that he exists in the same way brainfuck derivatives exist
00:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "If you are not familiar with Mencius Moldbug he is a longwinded Jacobite writer out of New York City."
00:25:27 <mnoqy> Bike: have you seen the synchronicity diagram
00:25:44 <coppro> mnoqy: have you seen the circuitous diagram?
00:25:51 <Bike> mnoqy: i don't think so
00:26:08 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Sch%C3%A9ma_synchronicit%C3%A9_in_English.png
00:26:17 <mnoqy> Diagram illustrating concept of synchronicity by CG Jung
00:26:34 <Bike> jung is the best
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00:28:16 <elliott> i think my first exposure to moldbug may have been via nock/urbit (http://moronlab.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html) and then i read enough to write him off as entertainingly batshit
00:28:33 <Bike> oh shit that was him
00:29:39 <Bike> i feel unclean
00:29:43 <elliott> it says right at the top that mencius didn't write it!
00:30:00 <elliott> or are you speaking of something else unmentioned
00:30:06 <Bike> no i mean the link
00:30:21 <Bike> i remember looking at it and it had some dumbass diagram and something about WWII politics that was made up and probably racist
00:31:20 <Bike> oh my god he's been doing this for years
00:31:37 <Bike> pages and pages...
00:32:27 <Bike> just, fuck, ok
00:32:33 <elliott> bike i'm going to voice and devoice you repeatedly unless you immediately offer clarification and nothing but
00:34:05 <Bike> i'm too unclean
00:34:24 <Bike> god has left me
00:34:30 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
00:34:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Bike.
00:34:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
00:34:38 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Bike.
00:34:45 <elliott> where is your explanation!!
00:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the message i'm taking home from this is not to read anything by this guy, ever
00:35:49 <elliott> Bike: i'm going to go to wherever the fuck you are and turn your house upside down unless you immediately specify the value of several referents in your last few real sentences
00:36:50 <Bike> none of my messages have full stops
00:36:52 <Bike> not real sentences
00:37:01 <Bike> `pastelogs Bike.*\.
00:37:25 <elliott> you're being very annoying!!!!
00:37:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21251
00:37:53 <Bike> none of these actually involve me
00:38:27 <Bike> "anyway for a nilcycle you just take a bike-unicycle and remove the wheel, then hook the pedals up to like... a fan that spins really fast to lift you up a little bit" innovative
00:39:15 <elliott> Bike: what is the "that" that was him, what is "the link", what is the thing that "had some dumbass diagram", what is the thing that he (who is he) has been "doing for years"
00:40:05 <Bike> i think i sound really dumb in logs
00:40:12 <Bike> elliott: ok the he is moldbug
00:40:45 <elliott> Bike: ok that's one piece of information
00:40:53 <Bike> «2012-11-11.txt:05:24:55: <Bike> sometimes I have a transient wish that just for a brief moment words would mean things...» and in that moment i was elliott
00:41:03 <Bike> which "that" you mean
00:41:13 <elliott> 01:28:33 <Bike> oh shit that was him
00:41:20 <Bike> "the link" is the link to moldbug's blog
00:41:22 <Bike> on the nock thing
00:41:40 <Bike> the thing that had some dumbass diagram is that blog
00:41:54 <Bike> the thing he's been doing for years is being a crazy fucker
00:42:11 <elliott> what on earth do you know mencius moldbug for if not writing a crazy-ass blog on the internet for years
00:42:16 <elliott> i didn't realise anyone knew him for anything else at all
00:42:38 <Bike> i know a guy who reads a lot of crazy ass blogs
00:42:46 <Bike> i get "Moldbug updates" through him sometimes
00:44:06 <Bike> except more sad than funny
00:45:41 <elliott> i mean iirc he explicitly calls himself a royalist
00:46:05 <elliott> anyway i like nock/urbit even if the author is a friend of a madman
00:47:31 <mnoqy> should i learn about moldbug this sounds fascinating
00:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe he went crazy from the stress of having such an awful name
00:49:05 <Bike> mnoqy i'm sorry
00:52:16 <elliott> mnoqy: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/
00:52:39 <elliott> warning: anti-democracy, most likely racist, gigantic posts
00:54:37 <elliott> hm these posts are shorter
00:54:50 <Bike> i glanced at a post and it was about how the climategate people existing meant that the constitution was invalid
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01:12:17 <elliott> great i reread the urbit post and want to write @ again
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01:14:20 <Sgeo> On Oneiric and Linux 3.9
01:14:51 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
01:14:51 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
01:14:51 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
01:14:51 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
01:14:51 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
01:14:53 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
01:14:55 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
01:15:15 <shachaf> Hmm, that's a bit long. :-(
01:15:18 <shachaf> I always forget how long that is.
01:15:22 <shachaf> lambdabot has too many commands.
01:15:32 <lambdabot> Girl from Ipanema, she goes to Greenland
01:15:37 <lambdabot> am I supposed to be frantic with terror and anxiety?
01:28:01 <lambdabot> His ear lobe fell in the deep. Someone reached in and grabbed it. It was a rock lobster!
01:29:20 * Sgeo decides to use the GUI-based upgrader this time
01:29:22 <lambdabot> You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore, because, gentlemen, this is my last press conference.
01:29:24 <Sgeo> Should be smooth
01:29:24 <lambdabot> You are never going to fail unless you try.
01:34:03 <Bike> http://farmersonly.com
01:34:12 <elliott> FarmersOnly is not accessible from outside the US and Canada.
01:34:35 <Bike> city folks just don't get it™, elliott.
01:35:47 <mnoqy> btw that city folks thing is actually on their logo with the ™ and all
01:36:00 <mnoqy> Meet 1,000s of Down to Earth Country Folks Today!
01:36:34 <coppro> anyone know a good android scratchpad app?
01:36:43 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or are scrollbars weird now
01:36:52 <Sgeo> Which is annoying with my partially broken mouse wheel
01:37:19 <coppro> they've been weird since your birth
01:38:06 <Sgeo> There's just a thin blue line, and hovering over it reveals a control I can drag or click
01:40:14 <kmc> Rob Ford's lawyer's defense re the crack video: "How can you indicate what the mayor is actually doing or smoking?"
01:40:35 <kmc> at the point where your defense is "you can't prove that crack isn't fake" then I think you've already lost political legitimacy
01:40:35 <Bike> has he been impeached or something yet
01:41:27 <Bike> i think you've already lost political legitimacy where something called "buzz feed" has a kickstarter campaign to buy a film of you smoking
01:41:32 <Bike> because: that's some dumb shit
01:42:12 <mnoqy> i havent been following but this sounds pretty rad
01:43:17 <Bike> basically the mayor of toronto is probably a damned politician
01:43:29 <Bike> dude i don't care
01:43:33 <Bike> one of those fucking sites
01:43:47 <kmc> yes it's gawker
01:43:51 <kmc> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rob-ford-crackstarter
01:44:01 <Bike> it's not kickstarter either
01:44:09 <Bike> imo don't get your news from me i lie
01:44:34 <kmc> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/?page=all here's the story that broke today about how everyone in his family is a sketchy-ass drug dealer
01:44:50 <kmc> it gets really batshit crazy when they get to his sister
01:44:58 <Bike> yeah i heard about that
01:45:02 <Bike> her boyfriend was a klansman?
01:45:22 <kmc> apparently
01:45:44 <Bike> the canadian klan
01:50:47 <kmc> kkkanadaians
01:50:50 <Bike> as in the ku klux klan
01:51:26 <shachaf> kmc: what book should i read
01:52:50 <ion> shachaf: I’m reading the Revelation Space series at the moment.
01:53:21 <shachaf> i think series should be considered harmful until proven innocent
01:54:10 <ion> shachaf: yes
01:54:56 <ion> http://heh.fi/revelationspace/ I’m at Absolution Gap
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01:55:59 <Bike> The Mind of Primitive Man
02:00:34 -!- beeeeeeeeees has changed nick to tswett.
02:02:03 <ion> READ ALL THE BOOKS
02:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott won't listen to the One True Reading Order but hopefully you'll have more success
02:05:36 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: btw i found some Cadbury Flake so you don't have to send me any hth
02:05:39 <kmc> i've never smoked crack but i have used a crack pipe
02:05:51 <shachaf> what did you smoke with it
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02:06:07 <Bike> that;s a lot of sci-fi
02:06:47 <Sgeo> When I reach Precise, should I watch DS9 or sleep
02:07:12 <Bike> getcho ass in the game
02:07:30 <elliott> anyone who hasn't watched ds9 and takes actions other than fixing that is questionable tbh
02:07:35 <kmc> is your computer warping forward in time
02:07:53 <elliott> ion: i remember this page being much more involved last time
02:07:56 <Sgeo> yes. It's currently in 2011, but getting to 2012 rapidly
02:08:08 <Sgeo> I think I'll take a break once it's fully in 2012.
02:08:24 <ion> elliott: Involved?
02:08:26 <kmc> smokin' crack in canada, doo dah, doo dah
02:09:00 <shachaf> kmc: was it illegal when you smoked it
02:09:43 <kmc> it wasn't scheduled
02:09:45 <kmc> but analog act
02:11:34 <ion> elliott: Oh, you’re probably referring to the version that asked “is this a good reading order?” with a table promoted by some random web site. A friend of mine said that order sucks (reveals some things too early etc.) and recommended this one.
02:11:36 <Sgeo> People care about Geocities, they archived it, that bit of history.
02:11:46 <quintopia> i watched all of ds9 in a single semester. it was worth it.
02:11:51 <Sgeo> Will the same be done for Active Worlds, before it goes down for good, if it does?
02:11:58 <Sgeo> Or of other virtual worlds?
02:12:31 <Sgeo> The ability to make backups of some parts of Active Worlds does exist.
02:12:41 <Sgeo> Reading them again is a different story
02:12:51 <Sgeo> As is the social aspects -- some of the data could be abused
02:12:57 <Bike> imo hope for mount vesuvius
02:13:03 <Bike> thousands must die for history
02:13:11 <Sgeo> (But not really abusable once AW is gone)
02:15:23 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
02:16:51 <kmc> It's like a KICKSTARTER but for VIDEOS OF POLITICIANS SMOKING CRACK COCAINE!
02:19:22 <shachaf> Sgeo: Since when do we get updates on Saturday?
02:19:31 <kmc> fizzie: so did you extract the qbasic docs with links and everything from the original files that ship with qbasic?
02:19:44 <Sgeo> Since Burlew decides when we get updates and I don't, that's since when.
02:20:02 <Sgeo> Really more of a since why...
02:31:11 <Sgeo> ...I didn't realize Daft Punk was a duo until now
02:31:15 <Sgeo> I blame Interstella 5555
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02:40:16 <shachaf> ion: do you subscribe to `olist........i feel like you should be on that list
02:45:37 <shachaf> 19:44 <cmccann> the most subtle form of crackpottery is the people who aren't wrong, and actually accomplish something, but what they work on is so ill-conceived it will never be useful
02:46:05 <Sgeo> Esolangs are a form of crackpottery?
02:46:22 <shachaf> I wasn't talking about esolangs in particular.
02:48:58 <kmc> is brainfuck a true esolang
02:49:09 <kmc> afaik it wasn't designed to be particularly different or difficult
02:49:16 <kmc> it was designed to be very simple and to have a simple compiler
02:49:32 <Bike> the central dogma of esolangology
02:50:17 <elliott> kmc: it was designed an esolang and is weird, so it gets in pretty much by definition
02:50:31 <kmc> it's not weird :(
02:50:47 <elliott> i mean a very superficial kind of weirdness
02:50:57 <elliott> it's an esolang, just a bad one
02:51:17 <mnoqy> brainfuck isnt a real language
02:51:20 <mnoqy> cheap P'' knockoff
02:51:54 <kmc> double prime all the way
02:52:41 <shachaf> Anyway kmc knows what I was quoting cmccann about.
02:52:47 <kmc> i don't remember
03:06:01 <elliott> i like how it took you twenty minutes from quote to explaining it
03:06:59 <shachaf> > map (pred.pred.pred) "freud"
03:14:14 <shachaf> kmc: did you read any books by vonnegut....id ont remember
03:14:45 <kmc> slaughterhouse five and breakfast of champions
03:14:48 <kmc> and maybe some others i forgot
03:15:09 <shachaf> i think in slaughterhouse five he points out how none of his books have villains in them
03:15:13 <shachaf> well at least people who are villains
03:16:13 <Sgeo> I should get around to reading that book I want to read
03:16:45 <Sgeo> You all want to read that specific book that I like?
03:16:49 <Sgeo> *erm, want to read
03:17:04 <shachaf> you've gotten the mnoqy smiley of death
03:17:09 <shachaf> you'll die within 24 hours
03:18:10 <elliott> Sgeo: what book do you want to read
03:18:35 <Sgeo> The Eternal Flame
03:28:36 <Sgeo> Although I have to admit skimming the science stuff.... well, not real-world science, but pseudoscience is wrong because it's not bad science claiming to be reali science
03:28:54 <Sgeo> internal science?
03:56:05 <kmc> fictional science?
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04:21:18 <Sgeo> Of course my fonts look different
04:21:22 <Sgeo> And stuff is breaking
04:21:32 <Sgeo> Well, I'm on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS at least
04:25:29 <Bike> congratulations, your system is now Bike Quality
04:25:35 <Bike> (hope you have good tech support)
04:25:57 <Sgeo> Ok, why does Chrome still not want to use WebGL?
04:26:02 <shachaf> the rumour goes that haswell will be out in ~2 weeks
04:30:20 <Sgeo> ...."Overrides the built-in software rendering list and enables GPU-acceleration on unsupported system configurations."
04:30:29 <Sgeo> Now wondering what the implications of that are
04:30:35 <Sgeo> Besides suddenly allowing me to use WebGL
04:30:49 <kmc> may cause impotence
04:31:12 * Sgeo is thinking that the fact that enabling that worked implies that this system is not supported, and that there may be a good reason for this
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04:35:02 <HackEgo> sprocklem: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:12:52 <Sgeo_> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sepples
05:12:59 <Sgeo_> Why is the server giving me text/plain?
05:16:27 <Sgeo_> http://twoproblems.com/
05:18:35 <Sgeo_> http://twoproblems.com/48 spam?
05:19:21 <Bike> Unlike the rest
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06:37:41 <zzo38> It seems like the audio from the microphone in the RF Famicom is also received by the cartridge (and the expansion port receives the same audio as the cartridge does). (I don't know if any official devices that connect to the expansion port use the sound, though)
07:10:20 <zzo38> They didn't put the Deadfish implementation in LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc
07:11:13 -!- Bike has set topic: LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | I vote TYHJÄ..
07:19:15 <zzo38> I added the Deadfish implementation in SQL.
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07:23:08 <shachaf> Taneb: elliott has a movie for you to watch
07:23:17 <Taneb> I'll add it to my list
07:23:26 <zzo38> Is this implementation OK?
07:23:59 <shachaf> Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpVhEgj7tU
07:29:02 <zzo38> Actually, I suppose the decrement might be rewritten like: UPDATE `DEADFISH` SET `VALUE` = `VALUE` - 1 WHERE `VALUE` > 0;
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07:33:31 <Taneb> This is a really awful movie
07:35:59 <Bike> it has like one and a half out of ten on imdb
07:36:45 <shachaf> Taneb: you gotta watch the whole thing
07:37:03 <Taneb> I don't think I can
07:38:21 <Taneb> An old korean woman is singing God Bless America while eating a McDonald's burger
07:38:31 <shachaf> Real Fast Nora is in your bones
07:39:02 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is in my bones!
07:39:28 <Taneb> This is only three quarters of those tokens!
07:40:44 <Taneb> The characters are awful!
07:41:00 <shachaf> You don't need a story to make a good story.
07:41:03 <ais523> Taneb: was that language name actually a spambot name?
07:41:09 <ais523> I assumed it was simply created to resemble a spambot name
07:41:17 <Taneb> It's just a clip show of what happens in a hair salon!
07:41:25 <Taneb> ais523, it was an article posted by a spambot
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07:41:46 <ais523> we need more esolangs named after spam
07:42:40 <zzo38> You need more esolangs named after eggs and spam and spam and eggs and spam; you already have some named after spam.
07:43:37 <Bike> shachaf is this an exorcism
07:46:05 <zzo38> Is this SQL code better now?
07:46:15 <zzo38> (and explanation of its use)
07:47:00 <elliott> Taneb: the problem is you haven't watched nora's hair salon 1-2
07:47:03 <elliott> if you did you'd understand
07:47:43 <Bike> elliott: weren't you talking earlier about how 2 was a departure in the series' overarching plot arc
07:49:24 <elliott> Bike: yes but in retrospect it offers several thematic keys that are necessary for full understanding of its revealed wholeness
07:51:48 <Bike> i;m gonna be honest here i've only seen nora's hair salon's porn parody version
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07:52:22 <mnoqy> i was never aware there was such a deep nora's hair salon culture
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07:58:22 <zzo38> Hopefully now you know, then, if there is such things or not.
08:05:37 <Vorpal> elliott, is "nora's hair salon" an actual legit TV series or movie or something?
08:05:43 <Vorpal> rather than just an esolang
08:06:21 <Vorpal> Oh, it seems like it is indeed
08:06:45 <Vorpal> why name an esolang after it though
08:06:58 <shachaf> A spammer created a page with that name, apparently.
08:07:00 <Bike> what kinda question is that
08:16:20 <Vorpal> Interesting, I'm copying files over NFS from my RPi. Seems the copy speed is disk I/O bound on the RPi, since doing stuff that uses the disk heavily on it slows down the copying by about 2 MiB/s.
08:17:02 <Vorpal> Or hm, I am using a external USB HDD, and the ethernet is also on USB, so that could be the bottleneck
08:37:11 <FreeFull> Maybe you should copy more directly
08:37:37 <FreeFull> I'm thinking 14MiB/s would be a more reasonable rate
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08:48:45 <Vorpal> FreeFull, the RPi doesn't have gbit ethernet though'
08:48:55 <Vorpal> Anyway the copy is done since long, just 1.4 GB to copy
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08:54:04 <FreeFull> Vorpal: I mean, attach the HDD to the computer you're copying to
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08:54:57 <Vorpal> FreeFull, the computer I'm copying *to* is not the bottleneck by far. The RPi I'm copying from is the issue
08:55:56 <Vorpal> FreeFull, as for attaching the HDD, no, not really, it is the system disk of the RPi
08:56:16 <Vorpal> And since I use my RPi as a server that would be awkward
09:00:49 <Vorpal> FreeFull, anyway I'm not sure 14 MiB/s would be reasonable, the USB HDD is USB 3 after all
09:00:56 <Vorpal> Not that RPi can use that
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09:29:24 <fizzie> kmc: Yes. I think I may have used some QuickBasic tools to "decompile" the help file first.
09:31:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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09:31:33 <fizzie> kmc: Yes, that's what happened; the tools gave me http://sprunge.us/Bfhb and then some Perl took it from there.
09:31:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, wasn't QuickBasic for DOS or something?
09:32:13 <Vorpal> What did you do with the manual?
09:32:28 <Vorpal> I hoped fungot, but can't spot any new entries
09:32:28 <fungot> Vorpal: it wasn't just whimsical, it was an issue
09:32:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
09:32:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: I made http://zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html out of it. This was quite a while back.
09:33:14 <fizzie> (March 2009, if these timestamps are anything to go by.)
09:33:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think IPv6 on that host is a bit slow btw
09:33:53 <Vorpal> ipv6.google.com (so it isn't on my end) responds fast but your site took several seconds
09:34:36 <fizzie> (The QBasic help file had more or less the same format as the QuickBasic ones.)
09:35:22 <Vorpal> qbasic sounds like shorthand for quickbasic...
09:35:50 <Vorpal> I gathered as much, which was why I said it was confusing
09:36:21 <HackEgo> 814) <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, your a fucking piece of shit, die and kill your family
09:36:44 <Taneb> `quote on which note I
09:36:49 <Taneb> `quote on which note, I
09:36:50 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
09:37:24 <fizzie> shachaf: Apparently it was Phantom_Hoover trying to be a pretend elliott.
09:37:43 <fizzie> (You added the quote yourself.)
09:38:06 <shachaf> someone should probably delete it
09:38:50 <Vorpal> Anyone know an easy way to batch create directories when extracting, neither 7z nor unzip on the command line appear to have options for that. I guess I'll write my own script
09:39:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, your a fucking piece of shit, die and kill your family
09:44:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: unzip blah.zip -d intodir
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09:45:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I hoped it could auto-gen intodir from blah.zip name
09:45:50 <Vorpal> since I have over 20 zip files..
09:55:44 <FreeFull> Vorpal: You can do that with a script
09:56:08 <Vorpal> I just hoped there was a built in way
09:57:31 <FreeFull> for x in *.zip; do unzip x -d $( basename x .zip ); done
09:57:42 <FreeFull> That's the way you'd do it in bash
09:57:58 <Vorpal> FreeFull, your way is not space safe
09:58:10 <Vorpal> So that would have broken horribly
09:58:19 <Vorpal> also you forgot a few $
09:59:12 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I ended up writing this (since I didn't noticed the -d flag at that point): for i in *.zip; do target="${i/ (MP3).zip/}"; mkdir "$target" && (cd "$target" && unzip "../$i"); done
10:00:12 <Vorpal> (the parens are there to contain the effect of the directory change)
10:03:53 <Vorpal> I don't like how the last line of the dmesg on my RPi is "[674315.948455] [BLOCK] I\x19"
10:04:00 <Vorpal> That doesn't look right at all
10:04:38 <Vorpal> /var/log/kern.log looks normal though
10:47:26 <HackEgo> grep: missing terminating ] for character class \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10129
10:48:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8377
10:49:26 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
10:49:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29668
10:49:54 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....@.....@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@................... ..................`.....`.................... .................`.....`............................
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11:20:05 <shachaf> I finally understand monoids! monoids are so intuitive now
11:21:32 <Taneb> monoids are just monoids in the category of whatever
11:33:57 <shachaf> @brain are you thinking what oklopol is thinking
11:33:57 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but how would we ever determine Sandra Bullock's shoe size?
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11:43:07 <FreeFull> shachaf: Now go onto semigroups and rings
11:46:10 <oklopol> semigroups shouldn't be _that_ hard after monoids
11:47:06 <oklopol> elliott: work, coding, music, geocaching.
11:47:30 <elliott> oklopol: is any of it good
11:47:52 <elliott> need an oklopolian work ethic
11:48:19 <oklopol> mostly i've been concentrating on the work part
11:48:32 <oklopol> if i don't get my phd soon i'm going to die of embarrassment
11:48:58 <oklopol> symbolic dynamics and this
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13:16:26 <oerjan> <elliott> he's too crazy to hate <-- that would be a great tagline, no
13:16:53 <elliott> oerjan: i'll tell it to the WSJ
13:17:27 <oerjan> murdoch: too crazy to hate?
13:18:22 <elliott> i assume you've seen that btw
13:22:38 <oerjan> <kmc> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/?page=all here's the story that broke today about how everyone in his family is a sketchy-ass drug dealer
13:23:02 <oerjan> i shall read that with the standard xkcd adjustment
13:24:05 <oerjan> hm that was a really early xkcd
13:24:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you not see the wsj thing...
13:24:37 * oerjan doesn't know the wsj thing hth
13:24:54 <elliott> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: http://catseye.tc/wsj.html
13:25:01 <elliott> linked in here by the dishonourable cpressey
13:27:16 <oerjan> has anyone designed brain[expletitive deleted] yet
13:28:18 <oerjan> i've been skipping logs
13:30:39 <oerjan> ...can the universe survive that
13:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> so long as Taneb and elliott don't meet we should be fine
13:31:13 <oerjan> okay if you are sure about that
13:32:24 <elliott> it turns out that i was taneb allong....
13:32:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how';s your eodedmoermomoemdiomermoemdoimeoirmdomoeimromdome implementation
13:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i never tried making an eodermdrome interpretation, i just tell other people to do it
13:34:19 <oerjan> "Also, it's a little known fact that all esolangers harbour a Howard-Hughes-esque fear of telephones -- I mean, how can you ever be completely sure they've been adequately sanitized, amirite?" <-- wait my fear of telephones and my paranoid hygiene are _entirely_ unrelated matters hth
13:35:55 <elliott> i think oerjan probably is a telephone
13:36:42 <oerjan> also eodedmoermomoemdiomermoemdoimeoirmdomoeimromdome is an _entirely_ unacceptable synonym of eodermdrome, it doesn't even have d and r neighboring hth
13:39:33 <oerjan> oh dear chris actually suggested zzo
13:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> howard hughes was in at least 3 serious airplane crashes i know of so far
13:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> "I don't want to dwell on this, but I feel a need to be perfectly clear. When you eat at a restaurant, you don't think about the rats, even though, statistically speaking, they are less than 30 feet away. If you write about esolang, YOU WILL BE WRITING ABOUT THE RATS." help
13:47:00 <oerjan> <shachaf> > map (pred.pred.pred) "freud" <-- hm...
13:47:38 <oerjan> > iterate (map pred) "jung"
13:47:39 <lambdabot> ["jung","itmf","hsle","grkd","fqjc","epib","doha","cng`","bmf_","ale^","`kd...
13:47:57 <oerjan> > iterate (map pred) "cngz"
13:47:58 <lambdabot> ["cngz","bmfy","alex","`kdw","_jcv","^ibu","]hat","\\g`s","[f_r","Ze^q","Yd...
13:48:16 <oerjan> > iterate (map pred) "zkdw"
13:48:18 <lambdabot> ["zkdw","yjcv","xibu","what","vg`s","uf_r","te^q","sd]p","rc\\o","qb[n","pa...
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13:48:31 <oerjan> > iterate (map pred) "vgzs"
13:48:32 <lambdabot> ["vgzs","ufyr","texq","sdwp","rcvo","qbun","patm","o`sl","n_rk","m^qj","l]p...
13:48:54 <oerjan> > iterate (map pred) "ozsl"
13:48:55 <lambdabot> ["ozsl","nyrk","mxqj","lwpi","kvoh","jung","itmf","hsle","grkd","fqjc","epi...
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13:54:05 <oerjan> <zzo38> You need more esolangs named after eggs and spam and spam and eggs and spam; you already have some named after spam. <-- he has a point there
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14:19:42 <ion> shachaf: What’s the olist?
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14:55:48 <Phantom_Hoover> wtf is this syndication thing american tv keeps going on about
14:55:56 <elliott> its whre you syndicajtei :)))
14:59:20 <tswett> elliott: oh shit I forgot to tell you.
14:59:23 <tswett> You have a baby brother now!
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15:50:48 <cpressey> ooh, that's a tough one. is it CHIP-8?
15:54:17 <coppro> only 230000 more graphs to generate
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17:05:20 <Sgeo_> What would be awesome: An HTML5 client for BYOND servers.
17:07:16 <Koen_> was that a question.
17:08:47 <Sgeo_> It was a statement.
17:15:33 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: like syndicating TV shows? after the first run they sell off the rights to re-run the show
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17:43:40 <Sgeo_> So glad Moonlight works on Linux
17:43:52 <Sgeo_> But why can't I login to Robozzle dammit
17:48:33 <Koen_> I'm afraid the part of my brain dedicated to robozzle might be too big for my own good if I keep learning about that stack
17:48:59 <kmc> moonlight being the silverlight implementation? or what
17:55:35 <Sgeo_> Going to go watch some DS9
17:58:59 <cpressey> hi zzo38 would you like to give an interview from someone from the wall street journal?
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17:59:37 <cpressey> zzo38: http://catseye.tc/wsj.html <-- read
17:59:57 <cpressey> everyone else: http://i4.minus.com/ibmS7uAFLGOZ0n.jpg
18:01:01 <cpressey> zzo38: i'm perfectly happy to direct them straight to you, if you'd like to talk with them
18:01:39 <kmc> cpressey: you should spell it "nut graf" if you really want to be all J-school
18:02:06 <cpressey> kmc: noted and thank you for your authenticity-enhancing tip
18:04:30 <kmc> esolangs don't get much traction on Hacker News because they rarely have web frameworks or million-dollar Series A rounds
18:05:10 <FreeFull> Someone should write a web framework in brainfuck
18:05:28 <kmc> it's probably been done, because brainfuck is so popular
18:05:29 <FreeFull> Or compile one down to brainfuck at least
18:05:45 <Koen_> careful what you wish for! also I wouldn't be surprised if I were to find out it already existed
18:06:04 <Sgeo_> Amazon wants me to update Flash. I am using the last version of standalone Flash that Adobe put out for Linux. If I switch to the more up-to-date thing that comes with Chrome, it will complain because that has no DRM.
18:06:33 <kmc> https://github.com/masylum/Brainfuck-on-Rails
18:07:12 <kmc> it's 20 MB of code
18:08:10 <Koen_> (I'm not surprised)
18:09:04 <Jafet> 20 MB of security holes
18:10:09 <FreeFull> Jafet: Brainfuck can't read from disk, only read the input and write to the output
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18:10:53 <kmc> https://github.com/ticklemynausea/gobsprogram/pull/4 a productive afternoon
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18:16:44 <Jafet> https://github.com/ticklemynausea/gobsprogram
18:16:49 <Jafet> That list is pretty small
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18:19:14 <AnotherTest> "every language" They still have a lot of work
18:20:29 <Koen_> how many different african dialects does that include?
18:21:49 <Jafet> Someone actually made the xkcd tetris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_giTK__WVOw
18:22:44 <Koen_> Jafet: have you looked at that "not tetris" program from that "stabyourself" guy who also made mario-portal?
18:23:13 <Bike> Not Tetris 2 is fantastic
18:23:47 <Bike> anyway http://drilbert.tumblr.com
18:23:56 <myname> soneone should port all that stuff to android
18:24:34 <Koen_> Jafet: hmm for a game called "hell tetris" the video looks incredibly tolerant
18:24:56 <myname> i like the idea of bastet
18:25:50 <Koen_> I mean, I don't want to make any nonfunny sex joke but he inserts some pieces is some holes that look much too small for me
18:27:42 <Sgeo_> Installing libhal1 and hal worked
18:27:45 <Jafet> Hell is getting mad that you can't get any lines in hell tetris
18:29:19 <myname> bastet is short for bastard tetris which is pretty much like regular tetris, except the fact that it calculates the usefulness of all available stones and always gives you the ones that will help you the least
18:29:24 <Jafet> You know, possibly the only thing from HAL that actually works today is that computers can beat people at chess
18:29:37 <Jafet> Everything else is bad 60s scifi
18:33:24 <Jafet> myname: bastet doesn't actually give the worst piece, because the programmer thought that it would be too difficult
18:33:39 <Jafet> Then some people beat the game
18:34:36 <kmc> Sgeo_: yeah i had to do that for DRM'd videos on Hulu
18:34:36 <Jafet> Well, giving the worst piece would be too predictable
18:35:06 <myname> Jafet: isn't it beaten because it is predictable?
18:35:44 <kmc> i don't get this idea of putting DRM on digital distribution of shows that are free over the air anyway
18:35:55 <kmc> it only takes ONE person to put it on Bittorrent
18:36:10 <Jafet> But until that person shows up
18:36:53 <Jafet> myname: if that's the case, then bastet sounds like crap
18:38:19 <kmc> does the text on drilbert come from anywhere in particular?
18:38:26 <Bike> i have no idea
18:38:56 <Bike> oh, "Tweets by @Dril"
18:39:42 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't know, sorry.
18:39:50 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't think I am able.
18:40:25 <Bike> «@ernest_borg9 @RichardDawkins impossible. for he has already denounced the neologism "OWned", and i cannot own him, nor him me,»
18:40:28 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/51cfac4f0763b0c76df19bc72de4ab6a/tumblr_mlfbgcQ9n31sou3fto1_250.png
18:43:28 <Sgeo_> What are hal and libhal1 anyway?
18:46:00 <Jafet> It's a program that takes over all your hardware
18:47:13 <Sgeo_> kmc, well, could be laziness ... same reason it makes 'sense' to have data bounce off of cell tower and back to message someone just down the hallway
18:47:30 <Sgeo_> The infrastructure is there, are you going to start making special cases?
18:49:41 <kmc> Sgeo_: well I know that for Hulu, most of the content isn't DRMed, because I could use it fine, and then one day i had to install hal/libhal1 to watch an episode of Community
18:49:49 <kmc> so I conclude that NBC made them turn it on for that show specifically
18:50:00 <kmc> which is pretty weird
18:56:40 <Phantom__Hoover> i wish i could live in your capitalist paradise rather than kneeling before the fist of socialism
19:02:39 <kmc> it is pretty great
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19:08:14 <kmc> fizzie: your line drawing is broken around "\\ Integer division symbol"
19:08:43 <zzo38> cpressey: I think your letter to Wall Street Journal is good; make it in the IRC. Certainly I am able to do it in the IRC, and so are you, I guess.
19:09:41 <cpressey> zzo38: if you're here while it's happening, feel free to chip in. note: the likelihood of the reporter agreeing to do it on IRC is thought to be small
19:10:05 <zzo38> Probably you are correct.
19:10:10 <kmc> and a few other places that backslashes appear
19:12:44 <cpressey> zzo38: can i still make the reporter try to contact you, if they don't agree to my conditions? it sounds like a nice task to set before them. if they succeed in contacting you, you can then refer them to (i dunno, let's say) oerjan.
19:13:37 <fizzie> kmc: It's because the integer division symbol is \.
19:14:10 <fizzie> kmc: <fizzie> Yeah, it has \\s in place of \s, which breaks some formatted tables, for example.
19:14:26 <fizzie> (I suppose you missed that.)
19:14:29 <zzo38> cpressey: Sure, you can, but I don't think they can. I can probably tell them a few things too, refer them to oerjan, who tell them some more thing and refer to someone else and then they tell some more things until it is complete, but clearly it seem this way is not as good as using the IRC.
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19:20:40 <cpressey> zzo38: I agree, but sometimes, you just have to make do with what you got. thanks!
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19:29:02 * kmc is a huge fan of line drawing characters
19:30:09 <Bike> do you moderate a line drawing characters fandom forum
19:31:26 <zzo38> kmc: Using CP437 or Unicode or shift-in/shift-out line drawing or ASCII approximations or all of them or something else entirely?
19:32:04 <zzo38> When doing line drawing I usually use CP437 or ASCII approximations, although you might use whatever is necessary for whatever is being done.
19:32:21 <zzo38> There is also the Zork runic font which also contains line drawing.
19:34:40 <zzo38> Well, it is an encoding for Unicode. But, if you use Unicode for line drawing how are you going to supposed to know if the text is the correct width that it will line up properly?
19:36:24 <Bike> the lack of han characters for drawing lines is a major weakness of the orthography IMO
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19:37:19 <kmc> zzo38: the same way I know in any other character encoding?
19:37:44 <AnotherTest> hm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bresenham%27s_line_algorithm looks interesting
19:38:05 <zzo38> kmc: But in Unicode it is ambiguous.
19:38:25 <Bike> AnotherTest: i wish i'd known that back when i played with TIs
19:38:48 <AnotherTest> Bike: as a matter of fact, that's what I'm doing nowadays
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19:39:15 <AnotherTest> well, during eg. religion class (note: this is confidential, do not leak)
19:39:19 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe you should write more about Z-machine? I know some things about Z-machine and have written an assembler and interpreter and an addendum to the standards document; so if there are some things you don't know, you can try to ask me and maybe I know or don't know either.
19:39:48 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Then don't post it on the public IRC.
19:39:50 <Bike> AnotherTest: are TIs your religion
19:40:44 <AnotherTest> Not that it was really useful because I couldn't use any key-sizes that were not crackable
19:41:27 <kmc> i should implement RSA in QBASIC
19:42:04 <AnotherTest> kmc: I found that it was pretty annoying, also not that it cost me AT LEAST 5 full classes
19:43:24 <AnotherTest> I had to actually type in the ASCII table (well part of it)
19:43:42 <zzo38> TI-92 has ASCII built-in.
19:43:50 <Bike> there should be a review site for algorithms. RSA 2/5 stars, pretty annoying + took me five whole religion classes to implement + i couldn't even securely sign my notes
19:44:32 <AnotherTest> (well as far as I know, and it's definitely not something you can easily access through TI-Basic)
19:44:42 <zzo38> AnotherTest: O, OK, well, I have a TI-92, but I think TI-83 is more common.
19:44:46 <Bike> Wait, RSA doesn't depend on encoding, why'd you need a table
19:44:56 <AnotherTest> Bike: I wanted to be able to type in strings
19:45:29 <Bike> oh is there not something like that defaultly
19:45:32 <Bike> wow it's been a while
19:46:22 <AnotherTest> You even need to write an asm program to enable lowercase letters
19:47:00 <Bike> heh, i remember finding the asm functions but having no idea how to use them
19:47:34 <AnotherTest> Bike: you write the hexadecimal instructions in a program, you run that program with AsmPrgrm hth
19:48:10 <kmc> not really "asm" then is it :)
19:48:12 <zzo38> I do have the emulator on my computer though, to emulate TI-83, TI-92, etc. (You can download the most recent ROMs from Texas Instruments)
19:48:18 <AnotherTest> But writing asm programs on the calculator itself is generally rather annoying for that reason
19:48:46 <cpressey> zzo38: I don't really know much about the Z-machine; I tried to read the spec once, but all those packed values made my head spin
19:48:48 <kmc> iirc on the 83 not-plus, the syntax for this was even weirder and less documented
19:49:09 <cpressey> that and the virtual memory paging stuff
19:49:15 <AnotherTest> Bike: ever used the GetCalc functions? That's great fun
19:49:31 <Bike> i'm not a "hardcore" calculator programmer
19:49:50 <AnotherTest> I used them to make some really boring game before
19:50:26 <Bike> my friend made a simple platformer with walljumping
19:50:43 <Bike> «'Youth rioting' in Sweden? It's the Muslims, stupid - WND» i'm not sure i want to look this up Phantom__Hoover
19:50:59 <AnotherTest> one disadvantage is that both graphics and GetCalc (and the like) are really slow
19:51:11 <Bike> actually WND is an american site
19:51:21 <Bike> AnotherTest: yeah it was like half a second between frames `-`
19:51:36 <AnotherTest> which makes writing games with graphics in TI-Basics pretty much impossible (well not if you want good graphics)
19:51:44 <kmc> WorldNetDaily? yeah it's right wing conspiracy nonsense
19:52:08 <AnotherTest> But if you write them in Z80, the result can be surprisingly fast
19:52:16 <zzo38> cpressey: Virtual memory paging stuff?
19:52:17 <Phantom__Hoover> i like how this is basically exactly the same as the uk riots back in the day
19:53:02 <Bike> man all my news is just about the code pink activist
19:53:04 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Well, I have written games for TI-92 that doesn't use graphics, and I used other tricks to speed it up even more; specifically, I made a solitaire card game. At first the shuffling was slow but I figured out how to make it fast.
19:53:07 <Bike> why can't we have some good riots, america!!
19:53:31 <cpressey> zzo38: it was a long time ago so my memory is basically nil, but i thought the Z-machine had multiple tiers of memory (and you access the higher tiers, which are swapped from disk on a small system, using packed addresses or something)
19:54:21 <AnotherTest> zzo38: sure, some optimizations can be made. And indeed using no graphics (or graphics that don't have animations) works too
19:54:42 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: i don't know, i'm not a riot enthusiast, just a dabbler
19:54:51 <cpressey> a VM meant for 8-bit systems that accesses >64K of memory has a complex memory access system, who'd've guessed
19:55:03 <Bike> other news quotes: " same as the uk riots back in the day
19:55:04 <Bike> 12:53 < Bike> man all my news is just about the code pink activist
19:55:08 <Bike> " same as the uk riots back in the day
19:55:09 <Bike> 12:53 < Bike> man all my news is just about the code pink activist
19:55:17 <zzo38> cpressey: There is multiple tiers of memory, which are dynamic, static, and high. High memory can only contain text strings and instructions though, and the interpreter may use virtual memory to implement it, but to the Z-machine itself it is probably like Harvard memory, I suppose.
19:55:31 <kmc> multiple tyres of memory
19:55:31 <zzo38> However it isn't really Harvard since it is possible to store text strings and instructions in RAM, too.
19:56:01 <Bike> i am not competent enough to paste into terminals
19:56:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, oh, you're not using xchat (xchat fucks up my copy/paste all the time as well)
19:56:20 <Bike> "I really don't get the hate for this guy. according to your information, all he did was eating the heart of a dead body."
19:56:52 <zzo38> The dynamic and static memory is really the same except that only the dynamic memory has to be stored in RAM and in save files and undo buffer; static memory acts exactly the same as dynamic memory except that you may not write to it. High memory is also the same except that there are many more restrictions on its use.
19:57:02 <Sgeo_> Oh, a text adventure ... thingy
19:57:05 <Sgeo_> Ok, not a real machine
19:57:13 <Bike> a virtual machine used for text adventures
19:57:58 <Bike> "Gabon without France is like a car with no driver. France without Gabon is like a car with no fuel..." meanwhile in the past
19:59:09 <zzo38> Also, you have under 6502 machine code, Commodore 64, Atari 2600 VCS, Commodore VIC-20, Apple II, but there are more such as the Nintendo Family Computer. However, in the Nintendo Family Computer, the traces that implement decimal mode were physically cut, in order to prevent decimal mode from working (other than this, it is an actual 6502 core).
19:59:52 <FreeFull> Wait, why prevent decimal mode from working?
19:59:53 <kmc> why did they do that?
20:00:23 <zzo38> I think due to patent issues.
20:00:36 <Bike> lol so they just left them in there but prevented them from working?
20:01:03 <zzo38> Yes; the logic for decimal mode is still in there, but the trace that connects it to the rest of the circuit is cut off to prevent it from working.
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20:01:56 <cpressey> we are pretty serious about protecting our patent on decimal arithmetic, see
20:02:10 <Jafet> Then there's intel, who kill cores because they can
20:02:45 <kmc> they do it to sell different products at different price points
20:03:09 <kmc> but a lot of that is parts of the chip that don't work reliably
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20:10:30 <Sgeo_> Clearly we need a Z-machine interpreter in Haskell
20:11:30 <Bike> mathematically pure z machine
20:11:43 <cpressey> i would be surprised if that has not been done
20:12:28 <Sgeo_> "Andrew Plotkin is currently (June 1997) drafting a..."
20:13:29 <Sgeo_> 'To call itself "Standard", an interpreter should (as far as anyone knows) obey this document exactly for every Version of the Z-machine it claims to interpret.'
20:13:35 <Sgeo_> As far as anyone knows, bwahahaha
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20:13:50 <kmc> no you need a z-machine interpreter in Agda
20:13:57 <kmc> and a proof of its correctness
20:14:11 <cpressey> here's standards, here's reality, and never the twain shall meet
20:14:41 <zzo38> I think there is Z-machine interpeter in Haskell.
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20:15:22 * kmc thinks about the morality of lasering out parts of a chip to sell it for cheaper
20:15:36 <kmc> seems clear they should be allowed to do it, but would the world be a better place if they didn't
20:16:10 <kmc> clearly they think this results in more money coming in, and that money goes to R&D for new chips
20:17:02 <kmc> it allows big companies and military atom bomb simulators to subsidize cheap computers for the rest of us
20:17:12 <kmc> so I think i'm pretty much OK with it
20:17:33 <copumpkin> kmc: do you like crying? http://www.quora.com/What-does-it-feel-like-to-have-your-spouse-die
20:17:40 <kmc> copumpkin: no
20:17:44 <Jafet> kmc: well, think about it another way
20:17:59 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: yes
20:18:05 <Jafet> You get cheap atom chips partly subsidized by gamers who buy 970s
20:18:12 <Bike> i can't even think of it as a moral issue
20:18:21 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: they do it more now that they aren't allowed to actually test the damn things
20:18:33 <Jafet> If they didn't bin, they would probably move prices into a smaller range
20:18:58 <Bike> huh, so there were no nuclear detonations between 1998 and 2013? that's kind of nice
20:19:08 <kmc> what about north korea
20:19:09 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, do they still bother developing nukes (what am i saying of course they do)
20:19:19 <Bike> kmc: that's the 2013
20:19:26 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: the US hasn't introduced a new warhead design in a while, but they're really worried about the old ones falling apart
20:19:35 <Jafet> Has anyone detected fallout from north korea
20:19:47 <kmc> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_nuclear_tests 2009 and maybe 2006
20:19:56 <kmc> Jafet: yes
20:20:00 <Phantom__Hoover> i heard stories that they'd managed to make a uranium bomb which then fizzled
20:20:17 <kmc> Jafet: i thought so? but maybe I can't find the link now
20:20:31 <Phantom__Hoover> this is impressive because fizzling is generally only an issue with plutonium
20:20:53 <zzo38> I have made up version 9 and 10 of Z-machine, and written other recommendations and clarifications related to Z-machine, including ones related to interpreter numbers. There are also some things in the document that are clearly mistakes.
20:21:04 <kmc> i don't know how much binning results from intentionally destroying chips vs. yield on subcomponents
20:21:24 <Bike> well, eight years then, that's... mediocre\
20:21:35 <Jafet> Since north korea is pretty much isolated from the world, if they keep the radiation in north korea I don't really care
20:21:54 <Bike> what a bizarre sentiment
20:22:12 <kmc> it all becomes global soon enough
20:22:14 <Jafet> Compare to, say, american nuclear tests
20:22:38 <kmc> (if we are talking about fallout and not just the radiation from the explosion itself)
20:25:45 <zzo38> I also am making the Z-Comp with is a competition for writing Z-machine games. Go to ifMUD, enter apartment 11011, and then go northwest.
20:27:57 <zzo38> There are some rules such as: no version 6, no Unicode, no Blorb, no extra sound effects, and you have to make the SHA-1 checksum when posting the file.
20:29:35 <kmc> what's a blorb
20:29:48 <Bike> it's a text adventure extentiony format, iirc
20:33:06 <zzo38> Version 10 can have up to 256K RAM, and up to 2M ROM, so you may be able to have many more objects and text than how much fits in a version 7 or 8 story file.
20:34:22 <Sgeo_> There's a version 10?
20:34:33 <Sgeo_> Crud, this thing I'm reading only describes up to 8 I think
20:35:00 <Sgeo_> zzo38, hmm... ifMUD has apartments?I
20:35:19 <Bike> what's the rent like
20:35:24 <zzo38> Version 9 and 10 is something I added to the Z-machine standard, as well as other things; see: http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/z9.txt
20:35:36 <zzo38> Sgeo_: ifmud.org port 4000 to connect
20:35:46 <zzo38> Bike: You don't have to pay rent, you just need an account.
20:35:55 <Bike> is the landlord decent
20:36:00 <Sgeo_> I know M*U*S*H has apartments
20:36:06 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I think so.
20:37:14 <Sgeo_> zzo38, is ifMUD supposed to only be able interactive fiction?
20:37:40 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Mainly. Not necessarily only.
20:39:28 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'll try again later
20:40:23 <Sgeo_> Hmm, it's mostly conversational these days?
20:40:31 <Sgeo_> Reminds me of LambdaMOO a bit if so
20:40:32 <zzo38> I just use nc and it works fine, so see if it works better?
20:40:47 <Bike> You use netcat for a mud?
20:40:49 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Mainly, although there are many other things too, you can look around at various things.
20:41:21 <Sgeo_> Is it MUSH based? I think I like the MOO concepts better, from a purely programming perspective
20:41:31 <Sgeo_> If ifMUD is anything like M*U*S*H
20:41:46 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it works just fine for me, although it might be improve if the input/output are in different colors.
20:42:30 <Sgeo_> Will learning about Z-machines help at all understanding real machines?
20:42:42 <kmc> the only real machine is the transistor, hth
20:42:54 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I don't know, but ifMUD using JotaCode programming. Your description is allowed to contain a program if you want to (my own description doesn't, although some of my other fields and objects contain programs).
20:43:15 <Bike> what do you want to learn about Real Machines
20:43:27 <zzo38> My own dbref in ifMUD is #20071 (in case you need it for any reason)
20:43:42 <Sgeo_> I haven't seen JotaCode
20:44:03 <Sgeo_> Ick, fundamental types
20:44:09 <Sgeo_> Yeah, probably going to get MUSH
20:44:42 <zzo38> My plan contains a JotaCode program (although programs don't run in plans, but % substitutions do run in plans).
20:44:48 * Sgeo_ starts reading http://www.plover.net/~davidw/jotatips.html
20:45:12 <zzo38> @print(@setfield(*player,"plan",@fieldloop("%4","",@replace("%f %v%c","%%","%%%%"))),"OK.")
20:45:47 <Sgeo_> So, is there some way to get the dbref of the room without saying it outloud?
20:46:04 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Yes. Type "examine here", or "ex here" if you have an account.
20:46:37 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:46:42 <Sgeo_> ....why 'if I have an account'? Are guests unable to examine
20:46:47 <zzo38> Many of my own objects (including myself) are set examinable, so you can see codes that way.
20:46:57 <zzo38> Sgeo_: No, guests cannot abbreviate.
20:47:10 <Bike> that's a weird restriction...
20:48:04 <Sgeo_> In LambdaMOO, if you want to write code, you need to get a programmer's bit. It's easy to get one automatically by asking an NPC butler, but it's still a thing you have to do
20:48:32 <zzo38> If ifMUD you automatically get it just by having an account.
20:49:16 <zzo38> Since all accounts have it and guests don't, Z-Comp uses it to prevent guests from entering and voting (although guests can still view it).
20:55:43 <nooodl> zzo38: why no unicode?
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20:57:57 <zzo38> nooodl: Because this Z-Comp is ZSCII only.
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21:03:08 <Taneb> I kinda want to learn how to make Minecraft mods
21:03:18 <Taneb> But I have a worrying feeling that that involves learning Java
21:03:29 <kmc> Java's fine
21:03:37 <kmc> i mean it's not fun to write
21:03:46 <kmc> but the language is pretty simple and reasonable, there isn't a lot of crazy bullshit to learn
21:04:07 <Jafet> The libraries more than make up for that...
21:04:10 <Taneb> cpressey, since when do I know Java?
21:04:24 <kmc> yes, I suppose some of the libraries are crazy bullshit...
21:05:20 <cpressey> Taneb: my mistake. I thought you already knew Java.
21:05:25 <Bike> how many libraries do you need for minecraft
21:05:36 <Taneb> Bike, possibly LWJGL
21:06:05 <Jafet> Well, you probably need the standard libraries
21:07:54 <Taneb> So, the question is, should I learn Java?
21:08:23 <Bike> put it on your resume. learn javabeans
21:08:33 <Jafet> You should learn mining
21:09:09 <Jafet> It's "close to the metal" as they say
21:09:43 <Bike> "psh, you learn assembly? that's not close enough to the ore" i say, coughing coal dust in your face
21:10:40 <Jafet> Coal isn't a metal, you poser
21:11:03 <Taneb> There's an old lead mine near here
21:12:09 <kmc> “Mines are supposed to be *below* ground, I’d thought,” Jones continued.
21:12:09 <kmc> “Aren’t you a graduate of the Colorado School of Mines?” Zula asked.
21:12:09 <kmc> Jones, for once, looked a bit sheepish. “They should probably change the name. It’s not just about that. I only went there to learn how to blow things up. I don’t know squat about mines really.”
21:12:45 <Bike> i know a guy who attended that school! i should ask him about destroying things
21:13:26 <Bike> Oh, is Reamde good?
21:13:50 <kmc> yeah i had fun reading it, it consumed most of my free time from beginning to end
21:14:24 <kmc> that said it's more of a straightforward techno-thriller a la Clancy, rather than the trademark Stephenson meandering world-building
21:15:19 <Bike> i'm not sure what to think of stephenson now that i've realized "he's serious", so to speak
21:15:32 <kmc> well Snow Crash isn't a very serious book
21:15:51 <kmc> it's definitely a send-up of 80s cyberpunk, even as it embraces the awesomeness of the genre
21:16:28 <kmc> i don't know, what do you mean by that exactly
21:17:06 <Bike> well uh, have you read in the beginning was the command line
21:17:15 <kmc> no / not in a long time
21:17:39 <Bike> well he like divides society into people who know what they're doing and people who just go along with it
21:18:11 <Bike> and well i'm not really sure what to think of the views of society in his books ay more
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21:18:33 <Bike> course. i haven't read an actual novel in over a year, anyway
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21:18:57 <kmc> i never got a strong sense that he's preaching about How Society Really Works in any of his books
21:19:06 <kmc> maybe Diamond Age a bit
21:19:12 <Jafet> Isn't that how society really works
21:19:29 <Jafet> Well, there's also the people who only think they know
21:19:55 <Bike> a nuanced and realistic analysis of society and policy
21:21:38 <kmc> pigs, dogs, and sheep
21:22:31 <kmc> ha ha, charade you are
21:29:16 <Sgeo_> Are there any languages designed to compile into Z-machine code?
21:29:27 <Sgeo_> Could Haskell be made to compile into Z-machine code?
21:29:57 <zzo38> Sgeo_: There is ZIL and Inform, and I am working on writing Berzio.
21:30:10 <kmc> once you start down the zzo38 path, forever will it dominate your destiny
21:30:15 <zzo38> I suppose a Haskell library could be made to represent Z-machine code and then compile it into a Z-machine story file.
21:30:46 <Sgeo_> Although I think my mind wants to abuse the Writer monad all the time
21:30:50 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Using monads and/or whatever, I suppose
21:31:57 <zzo38> I was thinking, use Typeable to represent global variables, routines, objects, etc and then use SSA or something like that, and use ContT monad to make up some monad to make a Z-machine code, and then use datatypes which are compile into a Z-machine story file or assembly language.
21:32:04 <kmc> Sgeo_: http://imgur.com/4GoXLSB did you get to this part in The Tangled Web yet? i'm thinking about this attack and I think I understand what's going on
21:32:30 <zzo38> Inform has various restrictions, so some others might be better for many things.
21:32:30 <kmc> pretty tricky
21:32:32 <Sgeo_> "Each object in the tree may have a parent, a sibling and a child. "
21:32:47 <Sgeo_> Only one child? Maybe just one pointer to a child?
21:33:04 <zzo38> Sgeo_: It means the first child. It is the number of the child, not the address.
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21:33:59 <Sgeo_> You can set a cookie to secure, but you can't say 'for this domain, only accept secure cookies'
21:34:27 -!- Bike_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:34:34 <Sgeo_> Oh, hmm, says you'd need to 'overflow the cookie jar'
21:34:40 <kmc> HSTS might mitigate this though
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21:34:49 <kmc> I don't think you need to overflow the cookie jar though
21:35:32 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:35:41 <kmc> i'm thinking about an attacker who has a network MITM capability and also controls a malicious site (well, they can get that using the MITM too, but irrelevant)
21:36:14 <Sgeo_> zzo38, http://www.gnelson.demon.co.uk/zspec/overview.html
21:36:30 <Sgeo_> In that example object tree, would "small mailbox" have a parent?
21:36:36 <kmc> the malicious site makes an unencrypted request to the target site, it doesn't even matter if that server listens on port 80 because the attacker MITMs the request and responds with a Set-Cookie header setting the CSRF token cookie
21:36:42 <Sgeo_> Even those West of House's child is you, and not small mailbox?
21:37:27 <Sgeo_> kmc, what if a secure cookie is already set, how would the browser respond in that case if you didn't overflow the jar, I think is the question
21:37:28 <kmc> then they can construct a proper request forgery to the real HTTPS site including the correct token
21:37:40 <kmc> Sgeo_: doesn't a new Set-Cookie of the same name overwrite the old one?
21:37:55 <kmc> i guess it might refuse to overwrite a secure cookie with a non-secure one, yeah
21:38:17 <Sgeo_> kmc, I thought so, but the fact that that texts suggests overflowing the cookie jar first...
21:38:33 <kmc> so does HSTS mitigate this attack
21:38:53 <kmc> does it prevent making unencrypted requests at all, or does it just translate when the user types foo.com to https://foo.com
21:40:10 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Yes. The location's first child is the player, although the mailbox is one of its children too.
21:40:26 <zzo38> There are also assemblers of Z-machine, such as ZAP and Frolg.
21:40:39 <zzo38> Z-machine can also be programmed in C and in Forth.
21:40:58 <Sgeo_> How about Factor? :D
21:42:31 <zzo38> I do think a Haskell library to represent Z-machine codes would be good to have, though.
21:45:37 <Sgeo_> zzo38, if a game doesn't want to use static memory, is that possible to not have any?
21:46:07 <Sgeo_> Oh I guess you could have $0e point to where the end of static memory would e
21:47:17 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Yes, the static memory is not necessary; dynamic memory acts the same anyways (except that it is also writable, storable in save data, etc)
21:48:07 <Sgeo_> 16-bit addresses. Kind of sucks
21:48:24 <Sgeo_> I guess I have to keep the historical context in mind
21:48:34 <zzo38> There are also packed addresses though.
21:48:59 <Sgeo_> Didn't get up to reading what those are yet
21:49:01 <zzo38> Object property tables, dictionary tables, etc don't use packed addresses, however.
21:49:59 <zzo38> However, my own version 9 and 10 addresses for property table and dictionary table are half and quarter of the actual address, allowing you to have up to 256K RAM.
21:50:36 <zzo38> But, as far as I know, the only interpreter so far that support version 9 and 10 is my own interpreter, called "Fweep".
21:52:10 <Sgeo_> "Note that the total of dynamic plus static memory must not exceed 64K. (In fact, 64K minus 2 bytes.) This is the most serious limitation on the Z-machine (though it has not yet been reached by anyone)."
21:52:18 <Sgeo_> not yet been reached by anyone? o.O
21:52:44 <Bike> 64k is a lot of text innit
21:52:50 <zzo38> Well, it has almost been reached, by now.
21:53:29 <zzo38> Bike: The text is normally stored in ROM, though; the RAM is limited to 64K and that stores object headers, property tables, dictionary tables, and a few other things.
21:53:54 <Sgeo_> zzo38, I thought that static memory was the ROM?
21:54:06 <Sgeo_> And that 64k was RAM+ROM?
21:54:33 <zzo38> Sgeo_: High memory is also the ROM, although it may actually be stored on disk rather than ROM in some interpreters, it is actually ROM.
21:56:58 <Sgeo_> 'It is dangerous to rely on the ANSI C random number routines, as some implementations of these are very poor. This has made some games (in particular, 'Balances') unwinnable on some Unix ports of Zip.'
21:57:59 <Sgeo_> 'Z-machine text is a sequence of ZSCII character codes (ZSCII is a system similar to ASCII: see S 3.8 below). '
21:58:46 <shachaf> zzo38: There is already a Z-machine implementation in Haskell.
21:58:46 <Sgeo_> Z-characters are 5 bits
21:59:08 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, there is Z-machine interpreter already, but I meant compiler
21:59:09 <shachaf> I once fixed it up to work with modern GHC but never ended up getting the changes merged.
22:01:02 * Sgeo_ wonders if ZSCII is more compact than ASCII for plain English text
22:01:39 <Sgeo_> 5-bit characters. Getting to uppercase characters is done with a special character that shifts the alphabet for the next character.
22:01:43 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Z-character is different from ZSCII, Z-character is 5-bits coding, ZSCII is 8-bits. It is more compact, it is why it is used.
22:01:45 <Sgeo_> (Same with symbols)
22:03:01 <Sgeo_> zzo38, I suspect ALL CAPS-LOCKED TEXT WOULD NOT BE MORE EFFICIENT IN ZSCII THAN ASCII FOR VERSIONS GREATER THAN TWO
22:03:25 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Yes, that is true (unless you set up the alphabet table for all-caps)
22:04:46 <zzo38> Modifying the alphabet table at runtime is possible (so is repointing property tables, and other unusual things), but as far as I know no existing games use that.
22:05:47 <shachaf> Modify the alphabet at runtime to add a CAPS LOCK codepoint.
22:06:03 <Sgeo_> How would you encode 3 Z-characters in ZSCII?
22:06:22 <Sgeo_> How would you encode 4 Z-characters in ZSCII?
22:06:57 <zzo38> ZSCII is a 8-bit encoding it isn't the same as Z-characters. Z-characters is encoded using three in one 16-bit word; you need more than one if you want more than 3 Z-characters.
22:09:09 <Sgeo_> But how do you specify that one or two of the Z-characters in 2 bytes are unused?
22:09:25 <zzo38> You can put extra shifts and shiftlocks in them.
22:09:48 <Sgeo_> What happens if you shift a shift?
22:10:04 <zzo38> I don't know, but if you put them only at the end it doesn't matter.
22:10:06 <Sgeo_> 'In Versions 3 and later, the current alphabet is always A0 unless changed for 1 character only: Z-characters 4 and 5 are shift characters. Thus 4 means "the next character is in A1" and 5 means "the next is in A2". There are no shift lock characters.'
22:10:06 <kmc> not really
22:10:24 <Sgeo_> Does 4 even mean that if the previous character was a shift?
22:10:30 <kmc> shachaf: do you think what I said in ##crypto was fairly reasonable?
22:11:17 <zzo38> Sgeo_: It is unclear; I don't think it is defined, but either way it won't print anything at the end of the Z-characters text, regardless of the state.
22:11:25 <shachaf> I only read the last page or so but it seemed reasonable to me.
22:12:17 <shachaf> This person also says that the worst bug they've ever had in a Haskell program took 15 minutes to fix, or something along those lines.
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22:13:17 <Sgeo_> Z-machine code as a way of compressing English text... only output opcodes allowed...
22:13:20 <Sgeo_> good idea, bad idea?
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22:13:49 <Sgeo_> Although, even just using the text encoding stuff would be a win, possibly especially with abbreviations
22:14:02 <Koen_> all ideas are good aren't they?
22:14:22 <kmc> shachaf: the worst bug I've ever had in a Haskell program took about 2 weeks (on and off) to find
22:14:29 <kmc> it was some subtle math error in a 3D renderer
22:14:46 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Well, it does work; Z-characters is a OK way to compress English text slightly, in a simple way.
22:14:48 <kmc> pretty much impossible for a language to prevent that, I think
22:15:18 <kmc> even with theorem proving, you are just as likely to make that error when you teach the computer the axioms of optics
22:15:27 <kmc> probably a lot more likely because it will be a lot more code
22:15:47 <zzo38> I think you also have to program in the correct kind of logic into the computer?
22:15:48 <shachaf> I like Haskell but I don't think it's a panacea.
22:15:57 <kmc> yep, me too
22:16:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, same to me
22:16:46 <kmc> at some point saying "Well, you can write high-performance Haskell code with many years of careful study and huge effort invested into every project" is sort of not a very good endorsement
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22:18:02 <kmc> GHC Haskell performance is great for most projects, certainly for anything where people typically use Python or Ruby or whatever
22:18:45 <zzo38> kmc: I think you are correct, isn't very good in that case, but it is OK for some thing and is OK to make things in the mathematical way done by Haskell programs, even though it might be too large, too slow (if not sufficiently optimized), etc
22:18:53 <kmc> but I'm skeptical of the cases where you introduce a huge amount of ugly and unsafe and compiler-specific and brittle code in order to get acceptable performance
22:19:04 <Sgeo_> zzo38, do a lot of games use custom alphabet tables?
22:19:06 <Bike> "i too think some things are good and other things are bad"
22:19:21 <kmc> unless it's like a core library that's going to be used by a lot of high level idiomatic Haskell code
22:19:51 <Bike> kmc: a while back i saw somebody working on some set of benchmarks with CL by writing in a bunch of inline asm and like what's the damn point
22:20:37 <zzo38> Sgeo_: As far as I know the only one is the German translation of Zork, but I think it could be used in order to modify at runtime to make one part of game type out everything in all-caps or to make all input/output to be ROT13 in one location, or whatever
22:21:36 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should try Zork at some point
22:21:40 <kmc> Bike: yeah. the ATS examples in the Shootout are like that as well, iirc
22:21:52 <Sgeo_> 'The character set of the Z-machine is called ZSCII (Zork Standard Code for Information Interchange; pronounced to rhyme with "xyzzy")'
22:22:03 <Jafet> kmc: on the other hand you'd produce the first 3D renderer to have any kind of proof associated with it
22:22:05 <Sgeo_> That's an incredibly helpful pronunciation guide
22:22:18 <Bike> the american thoracic society
22:22:23 <Sgeo_> http://www.ats-lang.org/
22:22:24 <Bike> "Applied Type System"?
22:22:37 <kmc> Bike: http://www.ats-lang.org/ it's, uh, a dependently typed systems language? i can't figure out what it is really because the docs are beyond unreadable
22:23:14 <Bike> the front page says it has pointer arithmetic but they used asm too huh
22:23:17 <kmc> @quote kmc tutorial
22:23:17 <lambdabot> kmc says: i started to read the "tutorial" and it was incomprehensible. makes the Gentle Introduction to Haskell look like Teach Yourself PHP in 24 Hours
22:23:34 <Bike> i think i got a pimple just from reading that, it's so dorky
22:24:08 <kmc> looks like they've changed the site though?
22:24:14 <kmc> maybe the tutorial is new and improved
22:25:40 <Sgeo_> "In practice the text compression factor is not really very good: for instance, 155000 characters of text squashes into 99000 bytes. (Text usually accounts for about 75\% of a story file.) Encoding does at least encrypt the text so that casual browsers can't read it. Well-chosen abbreviations will reduce total story file size by 10\% or so."
22:29:15 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Yes, it isn't particularly good, but it is a simple way that works for this purpose.
22:30:03 <Sgeo_> Crazy idea, hooking up a Z-machine interpreter to PSOX
22:30:44 <zzo38> There are various other things I can think of to reduce file size and do other things, although I don't know if any compilers do many of these things.
22:30:58 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I guess Z-machine interpreters don't use stdio in a typical way
22:32:02 <zzo38> Sgeo_: It might be done by adding an extra input/output stream for PSOX, although yes it is crazy
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22:38:12 <zzo38> What does "warning: pointer type mismatch in conditional expression" mean?
22:38:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:38:55 <zzo38> Actually I figured it out
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22:54:27 <Bike> `welcome elieser224
22:54:35 <HackEgo> elieser224: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:56:51 <Taneb> Other kind of esoteric?
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23:00:14 <Sgeo_> I have a variety of thoughts that I wouldn't express outloud, yet I don't class as 'intrusive', and ... I haven't expressed them outloud
23:00:27 <Sgeo_> So why am I so scared that I'll end up saying this one intrusive thought outloud
23:01:07 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'm scared that somewhere deep down I agree with it, even though I hope that I don't
23:01:40 <kmc> PM it to fungot
23:01:40 <fungot> kmc: but it's a very interesting idea
23:02:16 <Sgeo_> fizzie can't read messages sent to fungot right?
23:02:17 <fungot> Sgeo_: hehe psykotic :) as long as it's legal to own property there, without being asked to do all this before?
23:03:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:03:15 <Sgeo_> If I type it to fungot, what if it opens the gates for me saying it again in the future
23:03:16 <fungot> Sgeo_: so dashboard comes up a lot of work to write. do you know of extra documentation it'd be great to test dynamic loading too if you want
23:03:21 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:06:35 <Sgeo_> Well, I typed it into a text editor, then backspaced over it
23:08:34 <Taneb> Well, the local factory is on fire
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23:12:47 <Sgeo_> One of the strongest intrusive thoughts I had as a kid was the number "666", which I felt I had to counter by thinking "777"... but the big reason that intrusive thought doesn't bother me anymore is because I see nothing wrong with the number 666. That seems like a bad way to resolve this particular thought
23:15:05 <fizzie> Sgeo_: I can read the last few of them.
23:15:34 <fizzie> (It echoes the raw IRC input, but doesn't log anything, so it's up to screen window scrollback.)
23:18:45 <fizzie> (Mostly as a debugging tool.)
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00:59:35 <Sgeo_> Is the DS9 finale a 9-parter?
00:59:39 <Sgeo_> Because I think I'm in it
00:59:54 <Sgeo_> I'm in what is at LEAST a 4-parter nearish to the end
01:00:12 <shachaf> ask yourself: is the ds1 finale a 1-parter?
01:01:04 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo_, the last non-finale episode is the holodeck heist one
01:02:09 <Sgeo_> "Inter Arma Enim Silent Lages" is part of the finale?
01:02:21 <Sgeo_> I don't remember Penumbra saying that it's the continuation
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01:23:18 <Bike> what's inside the cube
01:23:59 <Phantom__Hoover> you get to... fuck around with everyone else who buys molyneux's next game
01:24:33 <Bike> iunno i like fucking around
01:24:52 <Bike> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_Ey1SA9mqt5g/TdBDY_f0FzI/AAAAAAAAA_k/b7jGEFjSBxM/fighting%20racism.jpg
01:25:49 <Bike> "I [want] to thank everyone, even the haters for taking part in Curiosity"
01:26:21 <shachaf> I [should] start putting random words in [square brackets].
01:26:49 <Bike> The original word was "won't"
01:27:31 <Jafet> People won't want to be wont
01:28:03 <shachaf> Perhaps the meaning is "I'm wont to thank everyone"
01:28:09 <shachaf> seems more likely to me!!!!
01:30:44 <Jafet> The flying bismuth bronze bolt strikes The Rattlesnake in the head, tearing the muscle, shattering the skull and tearing the brain!
01:30:52 <Jafet> The Rattlesnake is propelled away by the force of the blow! The Rattlesnake's body skids along the ground, bruising the fat!
01:30:56 <Jafet> Kosoth Ulengingish has become a Hunter.
01:31:03 <Jafet> I'm starting to like this game
01:31:06 <shachaf> i won t accept that greeting
01:31:41 <lambdabot> *** "sass" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:31:41 <lambdabot> n 1: an impudent or insolent rejoinder; "don't give me any of
01:31:41 <lambdabot> your sass" [syn: {sass}, {sassing}, {backtalk}, {back
01:31:45 <lambdabot> v 1: answer back in an impudent or insolent manner; "don't sass
01:31:47 <lambdabot> me!"; "The teacher punished the students who were sassing
01:31:57 <shachaf> oh hey you're being quoted in @wn
01:32:15 <Jafet> Is that like being quoted in HN
01:32:32 <shachaf> Jafet: let's compromise on being quoted in HWN
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02:06:18 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with this program? It doesn't work. http://sprunge.us/CLdK
02:06:41 <copumpkin> if I were to guess, I'd say you hit the nail on the head
02:07:07 <shachaf> see http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=396
02:07:25 <zzo38> I mean specifically.
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02:08:20 <Bike> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=400 this is basically Kadath
02:09:22 <zzo38> I mean do you know what is specifically wrong what part?
02:10:17 <copumpkin> nope, it's a little hard to diagnose such a large unit
02:10:49 <shachaf> copumpkin: that looks like a healthy dinner
02:20:41 <zzo38> Who can help me with this program? It does partially works, after I fixed a few mistakes that caused it to not work at all.
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02:41:50 <Sgeo_> ) 'And so Im back! From outer space!'
02:41:50 <jconn> Sgeo_: And so Im back! From outer space!
02:42:09 <Sgeo_> Apparently in the Star Trek world, creating a disease means you know how to cure it.
02:42:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
02:44:12 <Bike> error function list
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03:02:47 <copumpkin> was that a gloria gaynor reference?
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04:28:04 <zzo38> I realize how much kind of time controls might be made for different games (including the combination), such as shot clock, chess clock, battle clock, match clock, byoyomi, timer increments, etc, and what happens when you run out of time can also be varied.
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04:47:26 <copumpkin> http://forlackofabettercomic.com/?id=162
04:48:47 <shachaf> i can confirm that's what copumpkin looks like
05:07:45 * Sgeo_ is about to watch "What You Leave Behind
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05:13:48 <coppro> pikhq: moved out yet? :P
05:30:33 <kmc> coppro: what cheeses are thoses?
05:31:27 <kmc> er, copumpkin ^
05:32:08 <copumpkin> hmm, delice de bourgogne, iberico, roquefort, comté, and emmental
05:38:26 <kmc> shachaf: is @WN like HWN but for @
05:38:31 <kmc> (cc: elliott)
05:38:54 <coppro> elliott: why is buttermilk so awesome?
05:39:14 <shachaf> ion: olist is for Order of the Stick updates.
05:42:25 <zzo38> I have added another Deadfish implementation.
05:45:07 <zzo38> This one is a Z-machine program.
05:52:30 <kmc> what is the point of Deadfish
05:52:56 <kmc> i should probably implement Gob's Program in Befunge
05:53:17 <kmc> unsigned int x; /* make a positive integer and call it x */
05:54:47 <Bike> @tell phantom_hoover https://twitter.com/mc_hankins/status/338742820129107968/photo/1 more significance
05:56:25 <kmc> hm Gob's Program is just a juvenile truth machine
05:56:40 <kmc> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine)
06:06:20 <zzo38> Maybe this program can be shortened even more. Currently it is 72 bytes not counting a header, when it is compiled. Changing PRINTC to do PRINTI with a custom alphabet table with only '>' can shorten a bit more (the rest of the alphabet table will overlap the program, and isn't used, unless it echos the command also using the alphabet table!)
06:07:59 <zzo38> It is only 16-bit numbers, though, and is signed (this is due to how Z-machine works).
06:15:20 <zzo38> Can the Deadfish implementation be made with DNA, or one using a hardware programming language (such as Verilog and VHDL), or etc ?
06:16:04 <zzo38> The Deadfish implementation in AWK is short: sub(/o/,x=x*(x>0&&x-256)*x^/s/+/i/-/d/)
06:16:31 <zzo38> kmc: I don't really know what is the point of Deadfish, or of the XKCD variation, but I do know that the XKCD variation can be implemented in dc.
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06:27:01 <zzo38> There isn't one in INTERCAL yet.
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08:10:11 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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09:02:32 <Taneb> I'm having to repeatedly change the source so it compiles with newer versions of Hashable
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09:11:27 <Taneb> It's probably fixed in HEAD
09:11:32 <Taneb> And I've got it working now
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09:12:15 <Taneb> Yeah, it's fixed in HEAD
09:12:25 <Taneb> But I'm using the Hackage version
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09:39:30 <fizzie> "VIDEO: [H264] 640x480 24bpp 90000.000 fps 4004.6 kbps (488.8 kbyte/s)" that's a lot of fps.
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09:42:29 <Taneb> ...constructor names are not required to be distinct between different datatypes? What is this madness?
09:43:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
09:48:31 <shachaf> Taneb: Well, you can figure it out from the type. So why not?
09:48:45 <Taneb> shachaf, it feels a bit weird
09:50:16 <Taneb> This is actually making me feel dizzy
10:04:13 <fizzie> The calmnoqy before the storm.
10:18:39 <fizzie> You folks surely know if there's some (free) "An-druid Abb" that'd basically do nothing else but capture video from the (front-facing) camera, encode it, and then stream it over, say, RTP/RTSP or something? The closest I've come across is this "IP Webcam", which does some sort of MJPEG-over-HTTP stream, but it's quite quirky and slightly sluggish; I think it uses some sort of software encoder, ...
10:18:45 <fizzie> ... instead of whatever hardware-assisted fancitude the regular video recording app uses. (And then things like Qik, Livestream and Ustream which do the right thing, but only via third-party services.)
10:22:54 <Taneb> Learning Agda, I have a feeling I'm going to come to despise the Mathematical Operators unicode block
10:27:03 <mnoqy> theres plenty more to agda than the mathematical operators unicode block
10:27:10 <mnoqy> take, for example, the other unicode blocks
10:37:38 <cpressey> hmm... has anyone ever made a Zalgo-oriented esolang?
10:38:55 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:39:46 <shachaf> mnoqy, Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahBU4Py5cPg
10:40:57 <cpressey> I̛̹̩̪͙͓̼̙ͥ͊ͨ́fͪ͜͏͈̯͖̝̙ ͕̳͍̬̯̙͉ͯͮ͐ͣ͌̇̈́̏n̡̡̗̳͉̖̙̹̰̮͌̍ͫ̋o̞͈̅̊̀̈́̿̿̚t̽̒͗̒̑ͩ̿͑͏͉̪̱̦̣͖̀͞,̵̛̥̟̔͐ͥͯ̓̒ͦ̚ ̡̨̤͔͎͎͇̗͊͊̐͛̆ͯͅͅț̰̠̱͌͊ͬͫ̏̌͠ͅh̯̞̭̗̔̆̏̕͠͡e̅̏͏̧̩̼̗͇̮̹̫̥n̶̓͏̮̥̳̪͇͟ ͍̘͉̖̟̻̣̒͆ͨ̚̕͘ͅs͓̱͚̗͉̰͊ͦ͐̿ͨ̔̓͂ͅô̱̘̹͎̥̤͛̀ḿ̯͈̗̾ͮͫ̾̒͗͗̈́ė̯̘͔̺͔̜̞ͯ̊̅̑̔oͧ̏ͤ͗̊̑̂҉̷̢
10:41:33 <cpressey> see, that could be a brainfuck interpreter or something right there, just in the combining characters
10:42:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bonjour: not found
10:42:44 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:43:15 <shachaf> Surely you mean "tervetuloa".
10:43:21 <shachaf> `run echo i love mononoids. they are so easy | zalgo
10:43:25 <HackEgo> i͛͛ ̗̎l̈́̽o̴ͨv̡̊e̵ͣ ̲͑m͒̽ò̇n̎͡o͎͌n̂̎ò̦i̫ͯd͊̆s͚̟.ͯ̽ ̸͝t̺̚ĥ͎e̖͈y̽͆ ̐̀a̓̉r͉ͮe̺̅ ̒̈s̱͛o̐̀ ͧͯe̮ͬaͨ́s͚̹y̭͑
10:44:19 <shachaf> `run echo i love mononoids. they are so easy | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:44:22 <HackEgo> i̴̧̫̦̾͋̂̇ͥͅ ̵̞̏͛̅͆ͮ̓͢͞ļ͚̯͓͊ͤ̊͌͐́ơ̺̜ͭ́́ͩ̔ͨ͝v͍̲͔͎̝ͨ͌̇͘͏e̩̲̯̦̤ͩ͛͂̽̋ ͇͍̯̦̣̩͆́̽ͩm͎̜̝͓̙͖ͣ̀̀͟ó̘͈͖̫ͥ̅͗̽ͮn̶͉̼̔็͕͚̿̈́͟ơ͉͔͚̟͗̀̎̋̎ņ̣͙̤̪ͦ͊̊͞ͅo͓̭̗̩̫̿͒̋̔ͅì̢̬̯̳̜̔̑͝͡d̸͇͉̝̀̀ͫͧͮ̀s̨͙̠͎̠̲͑̑ͦ͘.̹̮̼̽̓̀
10:44:28 <shachaf> that messes up my terminal so good
10:44:32 <Taneb> `welcome.fr cpressey
10:44:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.fr: not found
10:44:51 <shachaf> `run echo Taneb | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:44:54 <HackEgo> T̶̙̪̰̘̲͕ͩ̓͘a̴̰̞̙ͭ́͛̄ͪ̔n̡̯̂ͭ́͗̀͢͠͏ě͓̼͍̻͌͒̍͐͠b̛͏̴̢̙͕ͯ͑͗͢
10:45:20 <shachaf> `run echo do y'all see what i see | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:45:22 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
10:45:25 <Taneb> `run echo shachaf | zalgo | hh | zalgo
10:45:27 <HackEgo> bash: hh: command not found \ close failed in file object destructor: \ Error in sys.excepthook: \ \ Original exception was:
10:45:30 <shachaf> `run echo do y\'all see what i see | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:45:31 <Taneb> `run echo shachaf | zalgo | h | zalgo
10:45:33 <HackEgo> d͇͔̀́็̜҉̥̤̄o̧̼͉̮̓ͬ̓̂̑͘ ̴̨̼̻͔ͤͬ͒̏ͅy̪̯̘̝̿̇͑ͥ̉ͫ'̷̶̸͔̫̖̤̭̂͐a̫̹̤̱ͮ̓̿͒ͬ̉l̳͔̳̤̦̄͋́͏̡l̡͔͉̙͐ͥ͒̌҉ͯ ̺̝̹̜̹̀͆̏ͣ͝ș̛ͩ̃͐͡҉̹̎̂e͏͔̼̺̯̟̔ͦ̂͡e̵̟͔ͦ͛̐͝҉̓͒ ̡̘̲̤͋ͪ̍ͤ̋͐ẁ̴̮̬͎̫̐̿̈́͡ḩ̴̢̝͈͆̃̋͋̕ą̞̙̰̂̈̋͊̇͜t̶̼̾͆̆̈́
10:45:33 <HackEgo> s̹̉̽͝h̡็̳̇a̻̭̺͜ĉ͎็̰h̛̖̪ͫa̢͕̕͝f̶̻̐̈́
10:45:42 <Taneb> `run echo Taneb | h | zalgo | h | zalgo
10:45:45 <HackEgo> Ṱ̶ͨ͞aͪ็̒ͪh̥͒͡͠n̸ͣ͆̑e̗͆̈̚h̖ͮ̓ͮb̧͛ͩ͜
10:45:47 <shachaf> @brain are you thinking what Taneb is thinking?
10:45:47 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but culottes have a tendency to ride up so.
10:45:58 <shachaf> Taneb: What's your postal address?
10:46:15 <cpressey> whhh shouldn't that be @pinky ?
10:46:31 <shachaf> cpressey: brain is an abbreviation for pinky and the brain
10:46:41 <shachaf> > fix ("pinky and the "++)
10:46:43 <lambdabot> "pinky and the pinky and the pinky and the pinky and the pinky and the pink...
10:46:58 <shachaf> brain brain brain brain / brain brain brain brain / NARF
10:47:26 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what i'm pondering?
10:47:26 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.
10:47:34 <shachaf> @brain also gives Brain quotes sometimes.
10:47:35 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so, Brain, but we'll never get a monkey to use dental floss.
10:47:44 <cpressey> shachaf: yes but that is not an answer to my question
10:47:56 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm sorry, I'm not a moralist.
10:48:02 <shachaf> I don't answer "should" questions.
10:49:40 <shachaf> cpressey: Did you send that email?
10:54:03 <cpressey> fine, fine, fine, in my opinion which is not to be assumed to be shared by anyone else at all @pinky would have a much better cadence than @brain if it's going to return Pinky quotes.
10:54:13 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but don't you need a swimming pool to play Marco Polo?
10:54:13 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but there's still a bug stuck in here from last time.
10:54:14 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... ooh, it's all too much for me.
10:54:15 <lambdabot> Gee, Brain, what are we going to do tonight?
10:54:15 <lambdabot> The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!
10:54:15 <lambdabot> The game does not conclude until the woman with the eating disorder ululates.
10:54:18 <lambdabot> Brain! Brain! You aren't going to leave me!!!???You know what happened to Jerry Lewis after Dean Martin left him!!!
10:54:53 <cpressey> shachaf: i feel you might still not be getting what i'm getting at but never mind
10:56:09 <shachaf> cpressey: The important part of the I'm-not-a-moralist thing is that moraliszing about lambdabot is useless.
10:58:19 * cpressey checks the muzzle of his ray gun to make sure it's not clogged or something
11:01:19 <shachaf> `run quotes cpressey | shuf
11:01:21 <HackEgo> 252) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME. \ 124) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 267) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTA
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11:11:20 <Taneb> I'm having trouble with this exercise
11:12:19 <Taneb> cpressey, I go with what my spell checker tells me
11:12:28 <Taneb> Currently it's set to British spelling
11:12:34 <Taneb> Which is appropriate because I am in the UK
11:12:44 <shachaf> I thought you were in Hexham.
11:13:03 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm in a British enclave
11:15:22 * cpressey whacks his ray gun against the bulkhead a couple of times
11:15:35 <cpressey> i don't know what's up with this thing
11:17:57 <cpressey> well, all I know is that Phantom_Hoover must have had his spell checker set to some really kick-ass dialect of English when he was writing his latest blog post, that's all.
11:18:06 <cpressey> and editing it, too, 'cos it now says "exersise"
11:20:42 <Taneb> I suspect that maybe his browser was glitching and only spell-checked the first paragraph
11:20:52 <shachaf> Those articles on phantom-hoover.tumblr.com don't seem a whole lot like Phantom_Hoover at all.
11:20:59 <shachaf> I wonder whether something is up.
11:25:24 <Taneb> Any, as I was saying, I'm having trouble with this exercise
11:25:51 <Taneb> Exercise 2.1 c in http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~ulfn/papers/afp08/tutorial.pdf
11:26:36 <shachaf> Taneb: want another exercise??
11:26:43 <shachaf> in-place matrix transposition
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12:56:31 <boily> good morning! what is a tyhjä?
12:59:27 <shachaf> good morning! what is a fizzie?
12:59:52 <fizzie> http://www.sss.fi/uutiset/143026_515h.JPG <- governance in action.
13:00:08 <fizzie> (It's the voting-board in the Finnish parliament.)
13:01:10 -!- boily has set topic: LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | I vote TYHJIÄ.
13:01:39 <boily> unless you tell me that tyhjä and tyhjiä are both valid words.
13:01:44 <fizzie> boily: That's actually something like "EMPTIES"; since it's counting the number of. I'm sure it says TYHJÄ in the button.
13:02:14 -!- boily has set topic: LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | I vote TYHJÄ..
13:02:33 <boily> couldn't you have normal plurals? like vide and vides?
13:05:06 <fizzie> We have more or less normal plurals. Tyhjät would be the normal plural of tyhjä, using the most common -t suffix. It's just... complicated.
13:05:54 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Plurals -- nominative plural vs. inflected plural.
13:06:32 <fizzie> (The huone -> huoneita is, I think, the same as tyhjä -> tyhjiä.)
13:06:39 <boily> your language is a facebook relationship.
13:08:07 <fizzie> Empty room -> (some) empty rooms / (the) empty rooms :: tyhjä huone -> tyhjiä huoneita / tyhjät huoneet.
13:09:10 <boily> salle vide -> des salles vides / les salles vides.
13:10:42 <fizzie> in the empty room -> in the empty rooms :: tyhjässä huoneessa -> tyhjissä huoneissa. See, simple.
13:11:16 <boily> I think I'm gonna go fetch some coffee, and reflect on the matter when my brain'll have fully booted...
13:26:09 <cpressey> sigh, i leave the room for ten minutes and my cat starts recommending films to y'all
13:26:39 <Taneb> cpressey, did you ever here the legend of Friendship Mouse?
13:27:02 <Taneb> AND NOW YOU NEVER WILL!
13:28:32 <cpressey> DAMN YOU, TANEB! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
13:29:43 <shachaf> Does Anyone Not Enjoy BRAAAAAINS
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13:57:57 <oerjan> <cpressey> DAMN YOU, TANEB! DAMN YOU TO HELL! <-- and thus starts the great cpressey - ais523 flamewar.
13:58:19 <oerjan> also, interviewing me would be a bad idea hth
13:59:25 <Jafet> "interviewing me would be a bad idea hth" -- oerjan
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13:59:51 <oerjan> Jafet: HackEgo is thataway hth
14:00:17 <Jafet> Maybe we can interview fungot.
14:00:17 <fungot> Jafet: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! marle too! ayla have fun! i heard you were to be executed, dear!
14:00:54 <Jafet> It seems enthusiastic.
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14:02:56 <cpressey> oerjan: OH OK AND HERE I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA
14:03:56 <cpressey> ftr I have no idea if "Friendship Mouse" is A Thing or something Taneb just made up, nor do I have any inkling as to its possible relationship to ais523
14:05:08 <elliott> I don't think #esoteric is "about" inklings
14:05:55 <cpressey> knowledge, awareness, notion, idea, information
14:06:02 <cpressey> oh, not any of those things either? ok
14:07:36 <elliott> are there any updates to the wsj saga
14:07:52 <lambdabot> *** "saga" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
14:07:52 <lambdabot> n 1: a narrative telling the adventures of a hero or a family;
14:07:52 <lambdabot> originally (12th to 14th centuries) a story of the families
14:07:52 <lambdabot> that settled Iceland and their descendants but now any
14:07:54 <lambdabot> prose narrative that resembles such an account
14:08:28 <cpressey> elliott: cpressey sent email, cpressey awaits response
14:08:40 <elliott> cpressey talks in third person
14:10:00 <cpressey> would you have preferred {TaskId: 1, Title: "send email", AssignedTo: "cpressey", State: "done"}
14:10:38 <cpressey> on a little yellow sticky note
14:10:51 <elliott> you write... json on sticky notes?
14:11:07 <elliott> don't you have to quote the keys
14:11:50 <fizzie> If I recall the official grammar right, you do.
14:12:18 <cpressey> look, just because i write json on sticky notes doesn't mean THAT was json
14:12:36 <elliott> are you sure you're following the "use json for good not evil" part of the license cpressey
14:13:55 <cpressey> excuse me while i confer with my counsel
14:14:02 <Jafet> <?xml version="1.0"?><TaskNotification><Task TaskID="1" State="done"><Title>send email</Title><Assignees><Assignee>cpressey</Assignee></Assignees></Task></TaskNotification>
14:15:01 <fizzie> What, no namespace declarations?
14:15:01 <boily> (tell 'Jafet '(You vile XML fiend that you are))
14:16:02 <pikhq> coppro: If by "moved out" you mean "
14:16:12 <pikhq> coppro: If by "moved out" you mean "went to MO for summer internship" then yes.
14:16:22 <pikhq> Technically not moved out as yet, but.
14:16:29 <Jafet> (at (least (XML (doesn '(t (make (you (do (this))))))))
14:22:02 <pikhq> Two states, 833 miles, or 12 hours away.
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14:34:42 <Koen_> or 6 hours if you're riding a bike
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15:02:01 <pikhq> " Direct TCP access to remote HTTPS servers (port 443) is blocked."
15:03:05 <pikhq> Hmm, seems to be a false report on netalyzr's part.
15:03:50 <pikhq> Assuming github actually *does* have a SHA-1 fingerprint of CE 67 99 25 2C AC 78 12 7D 94 B5 62 2C 31 C5 16 A6 34 73 53
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15:43:18 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:54:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I finished DS9
15:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> good, you're making progress on working off your shit tv sci-fi debt
15:59:14 <elliott> cpressey: so you were implementing @ while you were away right
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16:10:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you just imply DS9 and Farscape are shit TV?
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16:11:56 <oerjan> i think he was implying doctor who is, though
16:17:41 <cpressey> elliott: yes, and for extra challenge, i've been implementing it in denim and broken glass (note: i didn't bother to look up what @ is before replying to you)
16:18:18 <cpressey> i think my cat actually had a good idea there, i think instead of shit tv y'all should watch "M"
16:18:53 <elliott> cpressey: oh were you not around when elliottOS became @
16:19:10 <cpressey> if i was i didn't notice. maybe i was.
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16:40:44 <cpressey> i think i was. oh hey http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html that's still there
16:46:36 <elliott> i found that again recently because osmeone asked about it or something. past me is super annoying
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16:48:23 <pikhq_> I think that someone was me?
16:49:24 <AnotherTest> It appears Clint Eastwood is an anagram of Old West Action, heh
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17:17:57 <boily> cpressey: lovely usage of the diaeresis in reëncode.
17:19:29 <cpressey> boily: don't compliment me, compliment elliott. btw, was there a... question... or something, that you wanted to ask me?
17:20:03 <boily> sorry, didn't see the author at the end.
17:20:29 <boily> about that question, maybe. I can't remember. (I can't recall. I got no memories, of anything at all ♪)
17:21:36 <cpressey> ah well i know what that's like
17:22:01 * cpressey gives a hard, incredulous, slightly-disgusted-looking glare in elliott
17:22:33 <cpressey> damned hard to type with a pen in your hand i really ought to put thuis thing down
17:22:39 <boily> fizzie: that didn't sound finnish to me.
17:23:56 <elliott> boily: you know, _the_ question.
17:24:26 <Sgeo> boily, Big Finish?
17:24:29 <fizzie> boily: It's not, though "elit" and "hurja" would be words pretty close to those. (They don't quite work as a sentence, sadly.)
17:27:26 <boily> elliott: ah! if it's about the coördinates and weigh...
17:27:52 <boily> cpressey: I'd be honoured to compile your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh into my humble log.
17:28:23 <boily> (it's for the greater good of humanity, viz. to demonstrate that the center of the Universe isn't in hexham.)
17:28:27 <fizzie> boily: So where's the Google Maps view of this log?
17:29:00 <boily> fizzie: as soon as elliott gives me something easily parsable.
17:29:44 <elliott> cpressey: oh hey you don't know about the whole hexham thing do you
17:30:05 <cpressey> well I've heard the name enough now but no
17:30:26 <boily> fizzie: you sound feverish and fungotty. is everything fine? do you feel dizzy, sweaty, have urges to eat ice cream with pickles?
17:30:26 <fungot> boily: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! cider please! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a treasure there... found the treasure!! probably filled with mystical forest powers are being drained. why not? then you should leave quickly!
17:30:32 <Bike> the hexham experiment
17:30:39 <elliott> cpressey: well you see i live in this small pretty rural town called hexham, pop ~11k or so
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17:30:57 <elliott> cpressey: taneb arrives here like a year or two ago, few weeks later we find out he's from the same fucking town
17:31:08 <fizzie> boily: "parsa" is Finnish for asparagus.
17:31:18 <boily> fizzie: ah. makes sense.
17:31:25 <fizzie> ("From Russian спаржа.")
17:31:58 <Bike> and they haven't met irl because they're both creepy losers
17:32:01 <Taneb> We're around the same age, broadly similar interests, in the same small town, and we have never met
17:32:11 <Taneb> Bike, hey, I'm not a loser!
17:32:33 <boily> Bike: I second your motion that Taneb's creepy.
17:32:44 <cpressey> well my current location is ZOMGCLASSIFIED but i can reveal that i'm now geographically closer to Hexham than I've ever been before in my file. so there ya go.
17:33:19 <cpressey> as for my weight, i'll have to get a bathroom scale
17:33:21 <boily> I'll put ZOMGHEXHAMIFIED.
17:33:35 <elliott> cpressey: is it actually in the uk or is this just a very tenuous definition of closer
17:33:48 <cpressey> er, i'm *positive* i noticed i typed "file" and corrected it with "life" but i probably just typed "file" again
17:33:49 <Bike> well before now he's always been in gansu
17:33:53 <elliott> also will it be revealed as soon as you design a language and have to sign it
17:33:54 <Bike> but now he lives in turkmenistan
17:33:57 <Taneb> Is cpressey in a super-secret Canadia military base in Acomb
17:34:09 <cpressey> i mean, i almost did it again that time too
17:34:19 <boily> probably. Canada is very mysterious.
17:34:27 <elliott> cpressey: ah, you're in Cornwall, WTF.
17:34:37 <Bike> is cornwall even real
17:35:07 <elliott> cpressey: is cornwall just what you put on language specs to mislead the feds
17:35:37 <cpressey> sigh, no, you got me, I'm presently in Cornwall
17:35:41 <boily> cpressey: cornwall, the one you get to from the 401?
17:35:51 <elliott> cpressey's shameful secret revealed
17:35:52 <cpressey> boily: no, the one that one is named after
17:36:05 <elliott> are you people talking about canada
17:36:21 <boily> yes. 401 is secret code for a vile highway in ON.
17:36:25 <cpressey> elliott: yes, everything in Canada is named after something in either England or France
17:36:33 <boily> (you and your damned good quality highway with decent drivers!)
17:36:54 <Taneb> Quebec is named after a small town in County Durham
17:36:54 <elliott> cpressey: it bears pointing out that neither Canada nor France exist
17:36:59 <boily> (why can't we have nice asphalt here... oh yeah. winters and italian mafia.)
17:37:14 * boily whacks Taneb with a poutine
17:37:15 <Sgeo> Apparently there's a famous MIDI file called clouds.mid
17:37:24 <Bike> a famous MIDI file
17:37:34 <Taneb> I vaguely remember deserving that
17:38:02 <boily> Taneb: you always do.
17:38:25 <Sgeo> https://soundcloud.com/brianorr/clouds
17:39:06 <elliott> cpressey: btw, "After all (and if you'll forgive the anthropomorphizing self-insertion in this sentence), if you pass me a primitive recursive function, and I'm primitive recursive, I'll remain primitive recursive no matter how many times I call your function." isn't quite true, I don't think
17:39:07 <fizzie> I live closest to Hexham (approx. 1698876 metres) that I have ever lived before (approx. 1699085 metres), so maybe that counts as quite Hexhamified too.
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17:39:25 <elliott> cpressey: higher-order "primitive recursion" can express ackermann
17:39:57 <cpressey> elliott: explain how sentence is false
17:40:09 <elliott> cpressey: well, ackermann is not primitive recursive.
17:40:41 <cpressey> well, define "higher-order primtive recursion" please
17:40:49 <elliott> yes, that's the harder part :P
17:41:00 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function#Definition_and_properties has a higher-order "primitive recursive" definition
17:41:34 <Bike> 7535000 meters for me apparently. that's a lot of meters
17:41:54 <fizzie> (Huh, it's only 1.7 kilokilometres to Hexham? That's disturbingly close.)
17:42:15 <cpressey> elliott: can you give me some text I can ^F into my browser to get to "the bottom" to which you refer
17:42:21 <fizzie> Uh I mean megametres SI COPS DON'T TASE ME
17:42:53 <boily> fizzie: use leagues and furlongs. it's better for your safety.
17:42:55 <Bike> cpressey: "currying". it's only a page down
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17:43:38 <elliott> (in particular this is why you can define Ackermann in Coq or Agda or whatever without problems)
17:43:48 <fizzie> boily: Almost exactly a million Smoots. (One of the units Google Earth's ruler supports.)
17:43:56 <elliott> (despite the only kind of recursion you get on naturals being the standard induction principle)
17:44:06 <elliott> (well, both Coq and Agda are weird about that but whatever)
17:44:09 <fizzie> Oh, it's written in lowercase. A megasmoot, then.
17:47:01 <cpressey> "In a category with exponentials" which, of course, wikipedia goes into great deal about what they mean there
17:49:22 <Bike> in a category with tetration,
17:49:58 <elliott> cpressey: that means you have "functions" (after the B^A set theory notation for A -> B) in the category
17:50:09 <elliott> or basically it means that you have objects representing arrows
17:50:16 <elliott> (I don't know why it mentions it at all honestly)
17:50:40 <elliott> it's really just saying you get a curried ackermann out of it given that you have higher-order functions
17:55:20 <cpressey> if you zoom out on that paragraph, it says: "Ackermann grows faster than any primitive recursive function. Here's a primitive recursive definition for the Ackermann function: ..." which -- if you ask me -- is really begging for a *leetle* more "and you see, this is OK because" verbiage in there somewhere.
17:56:08 <Bike> well in the first sentence's context "primitive recursive function" excludes higher order functions doesn't it
17:56:18 <elliott> cpressey: yes it's bad... it is a different kind of primitive recursion
17:56:24 <elliott> "The primitive recursive functions are among the number-theoretic functions, which are functions from the natural numbers (nonnegative integers) {0, 1, 2, ...} to the natural numbers." -- WP
17:56:38 <elliott> if you add higher-order functions to that mix, then you can express ackermann, is the point
17:57:04 <cpressey> I'm perfectly happy to clarify the line in the Exanoke docs but to do so it would really help to know... if/how/how not Exanoke is "higher-order primitive recursive". because it is, sorta, but i suspect, not in the way that the paragraph in wp is describing it
17:57:11 <elliott> so perhaps it's best to say that adding higher-order functions gives you "structural recursion", but not strict "primitive recursion"
17:57:37 <cpressey> can you write that defn on the wp page, in Exanoke
17:57:51 <elliott> I don't think you can even return functions can you?
17:58:46 <elliott> structural recursion with higher-order functions is nicer than primitive recursion anyway :P
17:58:49 <cpressey> man, i don't remember. i'm semi-retired now. i don't do esolangs, mostly i just make furry fanart
17:58:54 <elliott> so no worries if you can imo
17:59:08 <elliott> `addquote <cpressey> man, i don't remember. i'm semi-retired now. i don't do esolangs, mostly i just make furry fanart
17:59:15 <HackEgo> 1040) <cpressey> man, i don't remember. i'm semi-retired now. i don't do esolangs, mostly i just make furry fanart
18:00:41 <cpressey> "Higher-order functions are not used."
18:01:15 <olsner> afaik nothing says you can't make furry fanart using higher-order functions
18:01:55 <cpressey> if you really really want me to be specific about excluding higher-order functions in that statement, even though higher-order functions aren't being used in the language at all, ... fine, but i get to call you visit your grave after you're dead and spraypaint "BLOODY PEDANT, REALLY" on it
18:02:37 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, anthracite is what's added in your Dwarf Fortress mod, right?
18:02:45 <Bike> we have a gravedancing party planned for when elliott dies, cpressey
18:02:48 <Bike> you wanna rsvp?
18:03:57 <Bike> also is it porn or not this is important
18:04:15 * coppro goes to read conversation
18:04:40 <cpressey> Bike: i'd love to but presumably i will actually be too engrossed in sketching one of the characters from Star Fox, at the time
18:04:48 <elliott> cpressey: anyway i am confused as to what you are saying
18:04:58 <elliott> cpressey: I was responding to
18:04:58 <elliott> Limited support for higher-order functions could be added, possibly even to Exanoke (as long as the "no mutual recursion" rule is still observed.) After all (and if you'll forgive the anthropomorphizing self-insertion in this sentence), if you pass me a primitive recursive function, and I'm primitive recursive, I'll remain primitive recursive no matter how many times I call your function.
18:05:20 <cpressey> ah, well, that's maybe different. but it IS speculation. so
18:05:23 <elliott> which seemed to be saying that adding higher-order functions to exanoke would not allow you to write any "more" functions than the strict primitive recursion it presumably does now
18:05:31 <elliott> and I was saying, I think you are wrong, depending on what you mean by that
18:07:05 <elliott> cpressey: anyway I think you are not the first person who will be spraypainting that on my grave
18:07:15 <cpressey> i think it becomes woefully unclear because there are, pretty clearly, "first-order primitive recursive functions", the properties of which i'm fairly familiar, and "higher-order primitive recursive functions", the properties of which i'm not at all familiar with (but presumably they're not as powerful as general recursive functions. unless they are.)
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18:11:33 <elliott> you can express pretty much anything you'd want to with sufficiently powerful structural recursion, at least
18:11:43 <cpressey> also... my sentence doesn't say anything about returning functions -- granted it does say "higher-order" but it could say "functions as (almost) first-class objects (you can pass them but not create new ones)" instead
18:11:59 <cpressey> it would be great if there was a name for that
18:11:59 <elliott> right that's why it depends on what you meant by that :P
18:12:20 <elliott> but, erm, you could make Iter into a three-argument function
18:12:25 <elliott> and Ack into a two-argument function
18:12:35 <elliott> and I think it'd still be definable and structural by Exanoke's definition, I think?
18:13:21 <cpressey> just to go back to the point, "HO PR" might be relatable to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzegorczyk_hierarchy or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast-growing_hierarchy maybe
18:14:01 <cpressey> thank you for bringing it up. if i feel like fixing it, i will.
18:16:31 <cpressey> i really do suspect though, if you can't make new functions (but you can pass them), it's still FO PR (proof sketch: replace every defined function with a code integer, and replace every call to a passed-in function with a switch statement)
18:16:52 <elliott> probably someone has analysed the exact computational power of martin-lof type theory or whatever
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18:17:21 <elliott> cpressey: yes, I suspect you're right
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18:24:25 <cpressey> if i try to look for anything martin-lof in complexity theory i get mostly stuff about martin-lof randomness. i think that's a very different thing.
18:25:09 <cpressey> IS THIS ONE OF THOSE LAMBDA CUBE DEALIES
18:26:55 <boily> `quote FOUR ROTATIONS
18:27:03 <HackEgo> 356) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week \ 641) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add
18:27:18 <boily> HackEgo is case insensitive???
18:27:39 <boily> (or, probably worse, my mind's abysmally bad today.)
18:28:02 <elliott> cpressey: martin-lof is actually gene ray
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18:35:54 <Sgeo> Someone is asking me for a refund for something I don't sell.
18:37:15 <cpressey> sounds like the setup for a Marx brothers joke
18:37:35 <elliott> well, I found "Expressing computational complexity in constructive type theory". which is irrelevant to cpressey's question but I am probably going to read it anyway.
18:37:48 <Bike> `quote rotation
18:37:50 <HackEgo> 899) <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
18:38:18 <Bike> ii am the overlord
18:38:23 <boily> I feel reassured now. or maybe not. the idea of a lambdaïzed cube scares me.
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18:38:56 <Bike> Yesterday i was reading about racist ccubes.
18:38:58 <Bike> pretty harrowing
18:42:35 <cpressey> elliott: that might be good. i was interested in this for a while maybe 5 or 6 months ago. i don't actually think a whole lot is known (or cared about) for complexity classes between PR (FO primitive recursive) and R (general recursive). but in a pinch, you can always just make one up, and figure out what it's equal to later. clearly PR < HOPR < R
18:43:15 <cpressey> not sure where System F and martin-lof (is that the same as LF?) stand wrt each other
18:43:54 <cpressey> PR is freakin' huge in practical terms anyway, it seems kind of weird to care
18:44:06 <Sgeo> cpressey, is cat's eye, in fact, turing-complete?
18:44:35 <elliott> that uses a dependently-typed lambda calculus but not the exact same one as Martin-Lof I think
18:44:59 <cpressey> Sgeo: well... I don't think "cat's eye" is a language, so... type error.
18:45:09 <elliott> I just meant your "standard" dependently lambda calculus/constructive type theory with data types in general
18:45:26 <Sgeo> .tc TLD should only be for turing-complete programming languages
18:45:30 <cpressey> elliott: they all have little fiddly differences that make them just barely different from each other don't they
18:45:36 <Sgeo> ruby.tc java.tc brainfuck.tc
18:45:41 <Sgeo> No c.tc though
18:45:46 <elliott> cpressey: everyone loves fiddly differences
18:45:53 <elliott> cpressey: it's a nice NIH barrier!
18:46:05 <elliott> otherwise people would conflate your thing with something worse.
18:46:34 <Bike> something far more worse
18:47:23 <Bike> Turks and Caicos Islands huh
18:48:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cat%27s_Eye.jpg accurate
18:49:19 <fizzie> Is that what cpressey's place of business looks like?
18:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, anthracite is what's added in your Dwarf Fortress mod, right?
18:51:12 <cpressey> oh, that. yes, when i'm not drawing furry fanart, i spend my days chasing these three mysterious art thieves. despite all my efforts i have no clue who they might be. well, i think i'll go for a coffee
18:53:41 <Bike> i on't see cpressey on fur affinity. this is bullshit
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18:54:37 <boily> Bike: maybe on vclart?
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18:56:29 <Bike> http://us.vclart.net/vcl/cgi-bin/search.cgi?query=cpressey&page=1 well you heard the search.
18:56:46 <Bike> gotta find a furry artist and get them to draw cpressey. unfortunately the only furry artist i'm aware of is cpressey.
18:57:50 <cpressey> yeah no self-portraits, it's part of The Oath i'm afraid
18:58:16 <elliott> you could get a self-portrait from monqy
18:58:36 <elliott> get the AROS guy to draw cpressey
18:58:38 <Bike> is mnoqy a furry artist? that's right elliott. no
19:02:38 <boily> all kinds of oaths float around this channel. is there any cabal I should know about?
19:03:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:03:55 <cpressey> boily: i think, by definition of "cabal", no.
19:05:26 <cpressey> i don't remember nearly as much underlining and bolding and colours from last time i was here. either my client has improved or people are doing it more freely
19:06:34 <boily> I.. um... *may* have been pressing random keys. purely for research purposes, mind you.
19:06:47 <cpressey> also, no reply to email. they probably wrote me off as insane. or they file anything >1 page w/o a "tl;dr" into their "bastard why do they think i have the time to READ email" folder
19:06:47 <elliott> cpressey: colour/bold/etc. used to be disabled here!
19:07:06 <boily> here it only renders as reverse video, but metasepia reports: «\STX\ETX\GS\SI\DC2\USmeh. oh well.»
19:07:07 <elliott> now we have things like this
19:07:08 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:08:12 <elliott> fungot is an esoteric language deployment
19:08:12 <fungot> elliott: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
19:08:20 <fungot> Bike: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!
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19:13:16 <cpressey> oerjan, do you know anything about this higher-order-primitive-recursive-functions-are-more-better-than-first-order-primitive-recursive-functions-but-they're-still-primitive-recursive business?
19:14:18 <oerjan> hm i'm losing you at the but part
19:15:01 <oerjan> except maybe they're still _total_
19:15:51 <oerjan> the thing is, you can easily write ackermann as a "primitive recursive" curried function
19:16:02 <cpressey> they're definitely total. they're "still defined primitive recursively"
19:16:26 <elliott> you just need scare quotes around "primitive recursive"
19:17:06 <cpressey> well, it kind of seems like there are two (closely related) meanings for "primitive recursive"
19:17:06 <cpressey> one, how you define a function; two, FO functions defined that way
19:17:41 <cpressey> math does need more scare quotes though, so ima go with that
19:18:20 <Bike> «««primitive» «recursive»» «function»»
19:18:45 <cpressey> i [tried to] read a book on higher-order category theory a few months ago, there was much handwaving, much admitting of handwaving too; it was highly enjoyable
19:19:13 <oerjan> you enjoyed it at a higher order?
19:20:03 <oerjan> boily: i'm pretty sure he matched correctly.
19:20:13 <elliott> i should get around to properly reading a book on (non-higher) category theory
19:20:28 <Bike> lower category theory.
19:20:52 <Bike> vernacular category theory
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19:22:32 <cpressey> oerjan: yes! i remember now, "Higher Operads, Higher Categories"
19:23:13 <oerjan> category theory in the sewers: it's all like going through pipes
19:23:49 <cpressey> there has got to be something esolang-worthy in the world of operads, btw. READ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associahedron
19:24:39 <cpressey> i tooked your expr and turned it into a solid
19:25:02 <cpressey> and that's about as far as my mind can process it
19:28:00 <oerjan> <cpressey> elliott: yes, everything in Canada is named after something in either England or France <-- no, some are named after somethings in belgium hth
19:29:08 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo
19:29:34 <coppro> also some things are named after native words
19:29:37 <oerjan> i've been there. one of the three, anyway.
19:31:31 <boily> Montréal is a nice city. it is strangely warm today.
19:31:35 <metasepia> CYUL 271904Z 25012G19KT 15SM SKC 19/02 A3010 RMK WSHFT 1857 SC TR SLP193 DENSITY ALT 400FT
19:32:34 <Bike> the 15SM is beautiful today
19:32:41 <oerjan> there are also montréals in france hth
19:33:03 <cpressey> "composition [of the ω-category ChCx]: more or less as expected, but some choices are involved. For instance, if you try to write down the composite of two chain homotopies then you will find that there are two equally reasonable ways of doing it: one ‘left-handed’, one ‘right-handed’. This is something like choosing the parametrization when deciding how to compose two loops in a space (usual choice: do everything at double speed). Somehow the
19:33:19 <metasepia> CYKF 271900Z AUTO VRB02KT 9SM CLR 20/01 A3019 RMK SLP225 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
19:33:48 <boily> coppro: how much do you weight?
19:35:31 <boily> Bike: the SKC is more important. we just spent a very humid weekend, and my shoe decided that it would be a good occasion to sponge in water.
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19:44:31 <cpressey> oerjan: there are other good ones in there but i'm having a hard time finding them. my problem with category theory is that whenever i read the word "pullback" i can feel a part of my brain browning out
19:45:12 <oerjan> you need to get your brain to push out instead hth
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19:45:23 <elliott> oerjan was saying it got cut off at "Somehow the"
19:45:48 <cpressey> "Somehow the fact that there is no canonical choice means that the resulting ω-category is bound to be weak. In a reasonable world there ought to be a weak ω-functor Chains : Top -> ChCx."
19:46:19 <oerjan> we all know we aren't living in a reasonable world
19:46:27 <elliott> i like it when mathematics does unreasonable things
19:46:37 <cpressey> that could be why the section ends right after that sentence
19:47:56 <Bike> "oh, this is too silly. better just stop writing this here, math is silly"
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19:49:21 <cpressey> a category with a single object is a monoid. that much is easy. what i strongly suspect, but have not yet seen real evidence for, is that that's where the word "monoid" comes from.
19:49:55 <cpressey> cuz, you know, ... one. thing.
19:50:03 <elliott> cpressey: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/156952/why-the-terminology-monoid
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19:50:28 <Bike> i'm... pretty sure monoids predate category theory?
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19:50:55 <Bike> anyway: http://egtheory.wordpress.com/2013/05/14/curse-of-computing/ does this reek of oldman-itis to anybody
19:51:39 <oerjan> wp's monoid article has a 1951 reference fwiw
19:51:49 <elliott> isn't CT technically from the 40s
19:52:19 <Bike> predate anybody caring about category theory*
19:52:55 <Bike> ugh, i'm going to be wondering about the damned etymology now, though
19:54:09 <Bike> mathematicians are so bad at tracking historical development sometimes
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19:57:08 <oerjan> <cpressey> also, no reply to email. they probably wrote me off as insane. or they file anything >1 page w/o a "tl;dr" into their "bastard why do they think i have the time to READ email" folder <-- you shouldn't have titled it GREAT INTERVIEW OFFER hth
19:58:21 <Taneb> Just figured out why I was constantly using 4 times 100% CPU
19:58:51 <Taneb> I had those SETI@Home things going
19:58:54 <Taneb> And had forgotten them
20:00:18 <kmc> think of all the bitcoins you could have mined instead
20:00:24 <Taneb> Stop asking me these questions!
20:00:31 <oerjan> http://math.stackexchange.com/a/167900 seems somewhat believable
20:00:37 <Bike> we could establish and ask taneb@home
20:00:37 <Taneb> kmc, about 0.00001 if I was really lucky, right?
20:00:56 <kmc> well people use mining pools to even out the luck factor
20:01:05 <kmc> but yeah, you're not going to get a worthwhile amount with CPUs
20:01:49 <Taneb> Anyway, hopefully this also solves the mystery of "why does Minecraft keep crashing"
20:02:11 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:04:12 <Bike> are there people who make a good amount of bitcoins without having mining capability?
20:04:17 <kmc> right now the reward for mining a block is about $6,400
20:04:26 <kmc> and this is a very rare event
20:04:39 <kmc> i mean your odds of being the one to win this lottery are very low
20:04:53 <elliott> Bike: sure, you can just put $10k in with an exchange
20:04:58 <kmc> most people would rather have a steady stream of money instead of a bunch of lottery tickets, hence mining pools
20:05:02 <kmc> Bike: i don't understand the question
20:05:13 <Bike> i mean by like, selling things to miners
20:05:19 <Bike> things that aren't currency
20:05:28 <kmc> by selling drugs to people who want to buy drugs...
20:05:50 <kmc> or selling web hosting services to spammers
20:05:59 <kmc> lots of businesses accept bitcoin now
20:06:05 <kmc> the sushi restaurant I ate at yesterday accepts bitcoin
20:06:19 <kmc> I assume they convert it back to USD ASAP, and so don't have large holdings
20:06:50 <kmc> MtGox has huge holdings of bitcoins because people leave their coins in their MtGox account
20:07:10 <Bike> does mtgox act as like, a bank? you know, offering loans and stuff
20:07:16 <kmc> i don't think they offer loans
20:07:27 <kmc> also I don't know how big their holdings are actually
20:07:40 <elliott> kind of hard to do loans with bitcoin i think
20:07:41 <kmc> perhaps people don't leave their money in MtGox anymore for fear of it being haxed
20:07:46 <kmc> but probably not, because people are stupid
20:07:46 <elliott> without the ability to beat people up
20:08:06 <kmc> yeah and without the ability to distribute reputation information
20:08:25 <Bike> loans are pretty important to an economy...
20:08:26 <Sgeo> I still wish that the proof-of-work was useful ala Folding@Home
20:08:44 <kmc> i mean presumably a real bank that does all the usual meatspace verification could choose to give you btc instead of whatever other currency for your loan
20:08:51 <kmc> but you can't just like make a website that gives loans to anyone
20:08:57 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah
20:09:10 <Bike> did that proof-of-work anti-spam thing ever catch on
20:09:38 <Bike> considering that most of the nonspam email i receive is automated i guess it wouldn't help me anyway
20:09:47 <kmc> Bike: nah it still helps
20:09:59 <kmc> spammers send a vastly larger quantity of mail
20:10:13 <Bike> larger than the automated services?
20:10:20 <kmc> if a business wants to send you automated mail, they should be willing to pay the proof of work cost
20:10:36 <kmc> the real problem is that spammers have a very low cost of compute power because it's all stolen
20:11:10 -!- elieser224 has joined.
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20:11:55 <kmc> https://www.trustwave.com/support/labs/spam_statistics.asp says that spam is 75% of total inbound email
20:12:41 <kmc> so all the legit automated services in the world combined have less than 1/3 as much volume
20:12:56 <kmc> and presumably you're on a greater fraction of spam lists than fraction of legit automated services
20:12:58 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:13:41 <kmc> maybe in order to have loans, you need a system where creating a new 'identity' is expensive
20:13:48 <kmc> unlike btc where it's very cheap
20:15:01 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:15:03 <kmc> the fee for creating new identities can go toward paying the creditors of defaulted loans elsewhere in the system
20:15:45 <kmc> not sure this makes any sense though
20:15:57 <kmc> because if you have the money for the fee you wouldn't need to enter the loan system in the first place
20:16:13 <Bike> seems like it'd be hard to coordinate anyway.
20:17:29 -!- mnoqy has joined.
20:17:41 <kmc> and if we're taking about a purely computational expense to create new identities, then people will still 'mine' those and take loans and default on them, as a cheaper way of mining BTC
20:17:55 <kmc> or else if they are more expensive than the BTC you can borrow with them, there's no point
20:18:14 <Bike> so you need something that costs more than currency that costs less than currency
20:21:00 <kmc> in the real world it might be cheaper to start a new life with a new identity rather than pay off your debts
20:21:11 <Bike> even if you had identities that worked, how would you enforce loans? without a government what'd be the penalty, banks refusing to loan you money?
20:21:14 <kmc> but people don't because a) it's illegal, b) they have roots and a life
20:21:34 <kmc> yeah, rarely
20:21:51 <kmc> rare compared to the number of people in crippling debt
20:21:53 <Bike> the point being that the opportunity cost of faking your death and moving is usually pretty high
20:21:59 <kmc> I think actually killing yourself to get out is much more common than faking your death
20:22:24 <kmc> also c) there's a legal bankruptcy system
20:22:29 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yes plz
20:22:32 <Bike> i'm wondering how a working BTC economy could actually function
20:22:34 <Bike> and yeah go for it
20:22:49 <Bike> unfortunately the primary source for this is probably ancap economics and, wow, like hell am i reading that
20:23:02 <kmc> well you can have collateralized loans
20:23:03 <kmc> pawn shop style
20:23:11 <kmc> but what collateral assets can be transferred electronically
20:23:23 <kmc> WoW accounts
20:23:40 <kmc> i pawned my level 60 paladin to buy crack with bitcoins
20:23:42 <Bike> "sure, i'll give you a loan, but imma need your private key for a bit"
20:24:35 <kmc> this idea of pawning your identity for quick cash is getting into heavy cyberpunk dystopia territory, which means it will probably happen in about 15 years
20:25:01 <kmc> Bike: do you know about the secondary market in pawn tickets
20:25:19 <Bike> i've never actually used a pawn shop
20:25:19 <kmc> i've seen this advertised on signs in da ghetto
20:25:31 <Bike> is a pawn ticket like, the thing you get from the pawn shop to prove that the collateral is yours
20:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1f3qxd/mozilla_is_one_of_the_most_important_opensource/ (fuck it, i can't find anything better and i'm bored already)
20:25:52 <Bike> so you like... why would you sell that
20:25:53 <kmc> you deposit an item and get cash and a ticket
20:25:58 <kmc> if you come back with the cash, you get the item back
20:25:59 <Bike> why would you buy that, rather
20:26:25 <kmc> if the owner of the pawn ticket doesn't have the capital to get the item back, but you do
20:26:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: hm, i see that it's better for you to choose when to post a meanwhie (because this is boring)
20:26:43 <kmc> then you can get the item and sell it outright, back to the pawn shop for more money than the value of the loan you just repaid
20:26:46 <Bike> kmc: oh, so it's still a net loss for the seller
20:26:55 <kmc> for the pawner you mean?
20:27:04 <Bike> the seller of the pawn ticket.
20:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (i actually only think to check when someone mentions bitcoin, my mistake here was committing before i'd found anything)
20:27:29 <Bike> that's depressing but sensible
20:27:40 <kmc> presumably for this secondary market to exist, the cash the pawner gets from the loan + selling the ticket is less than they would get for selling the item outright
20:27:52 <kmc> but they get it in two pieces
20:27:57 <Bike> either that or irrational actors
20:28:08 <kmc> if you're going to fail to repay that loan, you might as well sell the ticket instead of throwing it out
20:29:24 <cpressey> Bike: re your link: yeah it... smells something like that
20:29:39 <Bike> yay somebody actually responded
20:29:43 <kmc> hey i'm not irrational, i act to maximize a utility function and that utility function is MORE CRACK NOW
20:30:14 <Bike> i can see their point but on the other hand the four color theorem is a hell of an achievement and also it makes work for computer scientists
20:30:24 <cpressey> did weak goldbach's conjecture recently get proved or something?
20:30:25 <kmc> for a long time EFF didn't accept bitcoin because they didn't want to endorse it as safe or a good idea
20:30:39 <kmc> but they do now
20:30:43 <Bike> i still haven't read A=B because i'm incompetent but they rationalized empirical proofs for simple algebraic identities (like, it works for n=1,2,3,4, it must be true)
20:30:46 <Bike> it's hilarious/awesome
20:30:47 <kmc> they do accept, they don't endorse I mean
20:31:03 <cpressey> reading comprehension fail on my part, yes it did
20:31:27 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/GirlsGoneBitcoin nsfw, also wtf
20:31:30 <Bike> i'm still waiting to hear back about the supposedly incomprehensible abc conjecture proof, sounds fun
20:31:58 <elliott> Bike: ted nelson says the guy who did that proof made bitcoin [TOPIC SEGUE MESSAGE]
20:31:59 <kmc> "Basically, post your naughty bits and get tipped in a digital currency."
20:32:13 <Bike> kmc: this isn't even hot
20:32:21 <Vorpal> So there is native Portal for Linux now, just a beta, but still. This might be old news, I don't open Steam very often
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20:32:35 <Bike> elliott: "he's japanese and good at math. basically musta been him"
20:33:13 <elliott> i like the tacit assumption that he's japanese based on a name being acknowledged as a pseudonym
20:33:41 <Bike> "japanese people have japanese pseudonyms. stands to reason"
20:34:23 <Bike> btw is [TOPIC SEGUE MESSAGE] an astral plane unicode character, because it should be
20:35:10 <kmc> "Welcome to leChateau deCrypto a cooperative of women dedicated to providing a safe and exploratory atmosphere for bitcoins, sex positivism, cryptography, and of course rock'n'roll."
20:35:18 <Bike> "inter-universal Teichmüller theory" i can't math
20:35:37 <Bike> whatever, the papers look to be in english. time to die
20:35:56 <Vorpal> Strange thing is that I own portal on steam yet it is not listed in the account history. Not sure how that works. I have no idea how I got it, but I had it for a while.
20:36:20 <Bike> oh my god every other word is italicized help
20:37:11 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:37:54 <fizzie> For some reason Steam's "grant access to this browser" confirmation emails always take quite a while to arrive.
20:38:12 <Bike> "Unlike many mathematical papers, which are devoted to verifying properties of mathematical objects that are either well-known or easily constructed from well-known mathematical objects, in the present series of papers, most of our efforts will be devoted to constructing new mathematical objects."
20:38:40 <Bike> so there's 450 pages here of constructing these things before he shows what you do with them. awesome
20:38:44 <ais523> fizzie: they may be being graylisted
20:39:41 <Taneb> Bike, just got an image of a person in a musty office wearing a brown suit playing with Lego
20:40:19 <Bike> where do they even sell those suits? nobody knows. they just grow out of their shoulders
20:40:19 <oklopol> Bike: are you talking about abc
20:40:26 <Sgeo> Are Bejeweled and Alchemy Java applet games or Flash games?
20:40:38 <Bike> oklopol: yeah i'm looking at mochizuki's papers because lol
20:40:43 <kmc> java applet games? what is this, 1996?
20:40:58 <Sgeo> kmc, the game I wanted to play could have been made around then, sure
20:41:00 <Bike> it's called an applet because it's a smaller apple
20:41:30 <Sgeo> http://www.popcap.com/games/alchemy/online
20:41:49 <Bike> considering i'm not even familiar with elliptic curves this is all kinds of pointless, but hey #yolo
20:41:58 <elliott> shouldn't finding this out for yourself be easy
20:42:31 <kmc> i went to a Microsoft Store in a mall today and it looked very suspiciously exactly like an Apple store
20:42:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:42:38 <Bike> maybe i should read something i'm more familiar with, like ethnogenesis in thailand
20:42:49 <Taneb> kmc, you know where I went today?
20:42:55 <Taneb> PRETTY MUCH NOWHERE
20:45:57 <Vorpal> Today? I went to a great number of places.
20:46:20 <Vorpal> Like one meter to the left of here. Quite an interesting place that was.
20:46:26 <fizzie> ais523: There are not really any servers on the trip here that would graylist them, unless it's happening on Valve's side.
20:46:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, they always arrive instantly to my gmail for me
20:48:37 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XQJc -- if the timestamps are accurate, there's a three-minute delay between the first SMTP server at Valve getting it, and my server getting it. Dunno why.
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20:56:31 <zzo38> Is there a version of APL for hardware programming?
20:56:34 <cpressey> Bike: i still haven't fully read that article but: if you ask me: if you complain in the same breath about 4CMT and "numerical results" up to 10 grillion you have probably missed a step in your own "proof" about how computers are stupid
20:56:57 <Bike> what do you mean?
20:57:40 <cpressey> the computer proof of the 4CMT is perfectly valid, if ugly.
20:57:52 <Bike> oh,, the point isn't validity
20:58:07 <Bike> just that proofs like that don't encourage as much math
20:58:34 <Taneb> Someone said I think of the Four Colour Theorem, that:
20:58:38 <cpressey> "encouraging math" whatever that means is not my idea of the purpose of a proof
20:58:48 <Bike> what's your idea?
20:58:49 <Taneb> "I guess this proof mostly proves that the problem wasn't that interesting"
20:58:59 <elliott> there's a coq proof of the four-colour theorem
20:59:43 <cpressey> Bike: i don't know, but it's not "encouraging math"
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21:00:21 <cpressey> all ugly proofs encourage searches for less ugly proofs, mathematicians are just *like* that
21:01:07 <cpressey> and a proof can build on another proof no matter how ugly the other proof is
21:04:49 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
21:04:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the comments on empiricism are essentially misguided
21:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean only a handful of people have ever read the full proof of fermat's last theorem; you're essentially relying on the empirical observation that they know what they're doing
21:07:12 <coppro> boily: why do you care how much I weight?
21:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> any simple, interesting problem that's still unsolved is probably going to have a hideous proof anyway
21:07:53 <Bike> that's an interesting 'probably'
21:09:00 <Bike> i think the post covers your problem though, "But this is not unique to computer assisted proofs, most modern mathematical proofs are so extensive that many of them are not surveyable from first principles"
21:09:46 <elliott> computer assisted proofs are obviously more trustable than large human-written proofs
21:09:56 <elliott> given proper publishing of the source code etc.
21:10:10 <elliott> even if they don't use a proof assistant
21:10:19 <elliott> anyone who thinks otherwise is... well, just crazy
21:10:25 <Bike> the point really isn't validity (thankfully)
21:10:30 <Bike> (because, yeah)
21:11:32 <elliott> well i admit i didn't really read context past Phantom_Hoover's line because i am too cool
21:11:49 <Bike> you are pretty cool, admittedly
21:11:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nt).
21:12:24 <Taneb> I once played a cool guy in a play
21:14:28 <boily> coppro: statistics.
21:19:49 <boily> coppro: you are being very elliotty, here.
21:24:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (the joke is that elliott is made of toothpicks and tissue paper)
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21:27:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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21:43:57 <cpressey> how can any value ever be less than an epsilon AHHHHH BRAIN BREAKING
21:45:09 <Taneb> ...it could be zero or negative?
21:45:38 -!- elieser2241 has joined.
21:46:17 <Bike> it's been a while since i cared about surreals but isn't there epsilon² and such there
21:46:48 <cpressey> also my brain breaks on the slightest confusingish thing now that i'm OLD so don't put a lot of weight on that part
21:47:01 -!- elieser224 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:47:10 <elliott> haven't you always been old
21:47:34 -!- elieser2241 has left.
21:47:35 <Taneb> elliott, you may be thinking of oerjan
21:47:49 <Taneb> But indeed, Befunge is about two years older than you, elliott
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> it's been a while since i cared about surreals but isn't there epsilon and such there
21:49:46 <Bike> yeah but it's distinct or something
21:54:22 <cpressey> elliott: i assume you were trying to break my brain
21:55:03 <oklopol> aren't hyperreals big enough?
21:55:04 <cpressey> oh! oh! got an email response back
21:55:18 <elliott> cpressey: oh. i'm not that clever
21:55:38 <cpressey> "A chat on #esoteric works for me."
21:55:58 <elliott> you've really fucked up now cpressey!!
21:56:31 <elliott> ok so the important question is what to set the topic to
21:56:40 <elliott> how about "As seen in the Wall Street Journal!"
21:56:46 -!- rapido has joined.
21:57:21 <Taneb> elliott, how about something actually to do with esolangs for a change
21:57:35 <elliott> Taneb: hahahahahahahahahaha
21:58:41 <elliott> cpressey: keep me updated re: when it is happening, I would like to make arrangements to be awake at the time
21:59:07 <shachaf> Please make arrangements for me to be asleep when it is happening.
21:59:19 <Sgeo> I will probably be at work :(
21:59:37 <cpressey> scheduling this predictably is going to be difficult but i'll let you know
21:59:44 <Bike> so the wsj guy is actually coming here?
22:00:42 <elliott> i have no idea how i am going to stop myself just laughing and trolling through the whole thing. help
22:00:47 <cpressey> Bike: yes, unless i... tell him not to or something
22:00:56 <elliott> i think i have a severe ailment that physically prevents me from taking this whole thing seriously
22:01:03 <mnoqy> im 10000% excited for this
22:01:08 <Taneb> elliott, we need someone sensible as an op
22:01:20 <Taneb> Someone Norwegian.
22:01:26 <Taneb> Someone... called oerjan
22:01:31 <elliott> if i was an op i think i might actually be able to not mess it up
22:01:34 <elliott> too much dang responsibility
22:01:55 <shachaf> have you *seen* what elliott does when you op him.....
22:02:09 <Taneb> Remember when I was op for a bit?
22:02:19 <shachaf> he'd probably voice the person
22:02:20 <Taneb> `quote never comes back
22:02:23 <HackEgo> 990) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
22:02:30 <shachaf> Hey, even I was an op in here once!
22:02:49 <mnoqy> my experience with shachaf as an op is he deops himself and asks a lot to be an op again
22:02:51 <shachaf> (+oed is how you learn English.)
22:02:56 <Bike> gregor isn't even voiced right now
22:02:58 <cpressey> i have trouble imagining how op powers would interact with this
22:03:02 <elliott> cpressey: i recommend asking zzo when he's available
22:03:03 <shachaf> mnoqy: uh, well deopped me.
22:03:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:54 <Sgeo> Hmm. How does /u/WarPhalange still have positive comment karma
22:05:11 <shachaf> All Reddit users have positive comment karma.
22:05:45 <mnoqy> Sgeo: are we supposed to know who that is
22:05:58 <shachaf> The reason: You can accumulate a lot of positive karma easily with one comment, but it takes many comments to accumulate a lot of negative karma.
22:06:03 <cpressey> elliott: he says he'll be looking for some sort of "story" or "hook" for the piece. does this help your "ailment". (it doesn't help mine)
22:06:21 <Sgeo> mnoqy, guy who faked having cancer on Reddit, and is still using that account
22:06:30 <Sgeo> Almost always gets downvoted when seen
22:06:39 <elliott> cpressey: is your ailment needing a drink
22:06:40 <cpressey> oh, and his days are tues, weds, thurs this week.
22:07:04 <mnoqy> cpressey: have you seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/From_INTERCAL_to_LOLCODE:_The_Esoteric_Programming_Story
22:07:13 <cpressey> actually i think my ailment is pretty similar to yours. drink is just an ineffective treatment for it
22:07:33 <cpressey> mnoqy: briefly. then i practiced a lot of thought-stopping
22:07:41 <elliott> cpressey: i feel a bit sorry for this guy
22:07:57 <elliott> have you told him he's not going to get a story out of this
22:08:03 <ais523> you know that I'm going to take the whole thing very seriously and try to get everyone to behave?
22:08:18 <mnoqy> elliott: um hes going to get The Esoteric Programming Story
22:08:26 <elliott> ais523: if you kick me for being stupid while it is going on i will leave forever
22:08:35 <cpressey> what possible (oh hi ais523 what's this Mouse Friendship thing) story is there except "i went on irc and i forgot how insane those people are"
22:08:58 <ais523> cpressey: I either don't know what the Mouse Friendship thing is, or I've foroggetn I know it
22:09:02 <cpressey> ok, i forgot how insane the banter of those people is
22:09:30 <elliott> cpressey: hey what fantastic pranks can i do to the wiki in relation to this
22:09:42 <elliott> maybe they've already used the wiki.... we'r famouse
22:09:44 <ais523> you could CSS it to be upside-down
22:09:52 <Sgeo> lolcode.com is dad
22:09:56 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
22:10:02 <elliott> cpressey: did you know the CBS show "Elementary" used Malbolge as a plot device? now THERE'S a hook for the story
22:10:09 <Bike> lolcode.com is dead and we have killeed it
22:10:12 <elliott> in fact that may even be the reason the WSJ wants to write about esolangs in the first place
22:10:57 <cpressey> elliott: why is this fact not recorded on its wiki page?
22:10:59 <ais523> I wonder what made them contact cpressey in particular, though
22:11:12 <elliott> cpressey: i think i was going to record it after someone came in here to mention it but then i forgot
22:11:13 <Bike> cpressey is the true prophet of the esolangology movement
22:11:40 <elliott> hm I should come up with fun lies in case I get asked any wiki-related questions
22:12:11 <Bike> can i like preemptorily apologize to the reporter for the blankness he's going to go through
22:12:14 <cpressey> elliott: ok are you just making stuff up or what the hell are you talking about
22:12:27 <Bike> the elementary thing is true
22:12:27 <elliott> ais523: also I hope you realise that when the story is about "crazy computer people making stupid languages", everyone taking it seriously will make it a /worse/ story
22:12:35 <elliott> cpressey: like multiple people came in here because of it
22:12:49 <elliott> and then my googling found a highly reliable citation in the form of a screencap on tumblr
22:12:53 <ais523> elliott: I'm not in favour of everyone taking it seriously
22:13:17 <ais523> I'm in favour of exactly one person taking it deathly seriously, in a way that's incongruous with the general atmosphere of the rest of the channel
22:13:44 <elliott> oh I really hope someone asks me to do a favour for them or something in the next few days
22:13:45 <Sgeo> help i might take it semi-seriously if im here wat do
22:13:53 <elliott> so I can say "sorry, I have to prepare for being interviewed by the Wall Street Journal"
22:14:09 <Bike> Sgeo: just be yourself. that's all we need
22:14:11 <shachaf> I thought cpressey was the one being interviewed.
22:14:13 <cpressey> ais523: I don't know (re Mouse Friendship) it was some surreal exchange with Taneb that I didn't understand, and now I'm apparently your arch-nemesis or something
22:14:27 <elliott> cpressey will be too drunk, we will have to fill in for him.
22:14:38 <elliott> also, I get the feeling the journalist is probably reading the logs right now.
22:14:58 <Bike> it'll probably be boring
22:15:06 <Bike> but talking about it not being boring is funny
22:15:22 <mnoqy> does mouse friendship have anything to do with friendship mouse
22:15:22 <cpressey> i kind of get the feeling he's not. just a vague feeling, based on how he's approaching this
22:15:43 <cpressey> as in, my mind transposes things on me all the time
22:15:43 <HackEgo> 489) <Phantom_Hoover> I keep asking random people for "friendship <thing>" and it's crippling
22:16:14 <ais523> we should design an esolang in the channel, in front of them
22:16:17 <elliott> I hope lament comes back for the occasion
22:16:22 <ais523> we need more things along the lines of Dupdog or Radixal!!!!
22:16:28 <elliott> and unbans a bunch of people and kicks everyone it'd be glorious
22:16:39 <Bike> "ok listen, what if it's like brainfuck, but based on wsj quotes"
22:16:45 <ais523> proper absurdity requires collective inputs
22:16:55 <ais523> hey, can we kick people for suggesting BF derivatives?
22:17:17 <elliott> Bike: can you go on a rant about capitalism/wall street while the guy's there. just suggesting possible roles here
22:17:37 <Bike> wait am i "the dumb anticapitalist guy"
22:17:38 <mnoqy> i hope im around for this it sounds thrilling
22:17:40 <Bike> i guess i'm ok with that
22:17:47 <elliott> Bike: well, we're all dumb
22:17:53 <Bike> well yeah but the other part.
22:17:59 <elliott> Bike: you could go on about bitcoin simultaneously
22:18:19 <shachaf> copumpkin can go on about bitcoin, surely.
22:18:22 <cpressey> hm... he mentions Piet and Ook! as "playful" languages which might be more... reader-friendly... to focus on.
22:18:25 <elliott> bitcoin communism: an idea whose time has come
22:18:39 <elliott> cpressey: maybe we can get david morgan-mar
22:18:59 <elliott> maybe we can get urban muller!!! an all-star cast
22:19:24 <Bike> http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/16/wsj_fiscal_cliff_infographic/1358357370309.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg "you know what would have made this more accurate, fascist propagandist scum? if you wrote their assets in bitcoin. fuck the gold standard"
22:20:50 <kmc> pictures of sad rich people dot tumblr dot com
22:21:07 <elliott> cpressey: god, I hope I'm not mentioned by name in whatever article comes out of this
22:21:21 <Bike> it'll be all over hexham
22:22:36 <ais523> elliott: change your realname to something plausible but incorrect
22:22:43 <ais523> like, invent a surname
22:22:46 <ais523> and put it after "elliott"
22:22:54 <elliott> my realname doesn't have my real name
22:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if they get the number of ls and ts wrong
22:23:03 <ais523> but that might inspire people to look elsewhere
22:23:32 <ais523> elliott: actually, change back to alise
22:23:53 <elliott> i think i'll just leave my realname
22:24:04 <elliott> i guess it's actually hard to tell that my wiki account is me
22:24:10 <elliott> unless you know my real name already
22:24:14 <elliott> since they just share a first letter
22:25:32 <shachaf> Bike: that's a good infographic
22:26:12 <shachaf> even the people whose taxes aren't being increased are sad
22:26:21 <shachaf> conclusion: money makes you sad
22:26:27 <ais523> neat, I just searched "elliott" on the wiki and there were no results
22:26:44 <Bike> truly it's best to be a simple, down to earth retired married couple, making $180k
22:27:16 <cpressey> ok, the biggest "problem" i see is that he's not going to find an angle. unless there's some exciting development or discord amongst esolang right now that i haven't seen.
22:27:46 <kmc> money makes people sad because they spend it on dumb things
22:27:47 <cpressey> i am not suggesting we concoct an angle. no, no, no. no.
22:28:04 <Bike> kmc: e.g. anything but crack
22:28:15 <shachaf> Bike: hey, that's not dumb
22:28:51 <shachaf> there are lots of things you could spend money on
22:28:56 <ais523> we should hold a BF Joust tournament
22:29:50 <quintopia> how about a befunge-joust tourney1
22:30:00 <cpressey> ais523: eh, i guess you maybe haven't heard, i'm in King-Arthur-la-la-land right now (more commonly known as Cornwall)
22:30:01 <elliott> cpressey: i think the biggest problem is that esolangs aren't news, aren't interesting to almost anyone, cannot be explained to most people, and are boring.
22:30:13 <quintopia> or a killer robot war machine joust tourney
22:30:16 <ais523> so I'm nearer to you than the hexhamers are
22:30:24 <quintopia> everyone give me your addresses, the tourney starts now
22:30:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: yes, I am wtf in Cornwall wtf.
22:30:57 <cpressey> but no, I haven't met Bike, but i did not get the impression that Bike was in Cornwall.
22:31:05 <elliott> maybe i should go to cornwall and terrorise everyone (incl. cpressey)
22:31:15 <elliott> wait is Bike actually in cornwall
22:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a cousin who works in one of the hospitals there, maybe you could injure yourself and meet him
22:31:18 <elliott> i thought he was in washington
22:31:25 <kmc> is it cornish history week already
22:31:31 <cpressey> shachaf: you're getting into the semantics of "met" there
22:31:34 <shachaf> Bike: how are the monuments
22:31:45 <kmc> shachaf: monumental
22:32:39 <elliott> i knew a dude from cornwall once
22:32:43 <elliott> he may be a saxophone player now
22:33:55 <shachaf> Bike: i heard Luxembourg has the bomb is that true
22:36:08 <kmc> luxembourg is da bomb
22:37:39 <cpressey> elliott: ok, so he comes in here, asks a bunch of reportery questions, and, given what he has to work with... we let nature take its course? probably there will be no publishable result.
22:37:59 <cpressey> i don't think i could get dmm or urban in here, but i could probably get bem or jeffry
22:38:13 <elliott> wonder if anyone will get /msg'd
22:38:35 <elliott> cpressey: this is the part where i admit i don't know who bem is
22:39:14 <shachaf> i don't know who any of those people are do i win
22:39:23 <cpressey> ah, sorry, I meant Ben Olmstead
22:39:50 <cpressey> Malbolge, for those of you not keeping score at home
22:41:14 <elliott> ah ok, I just didn't recognise "bem"
22:45:24 <Sgeo> I was in the WSJ once
22:45:27 <Sgeo> Not by name though :(
22:46:06 <Sgeo> http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB111196673261990485-w6Ozd12gsakyASeZZ55yKUJVXAk_20050427,00.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
22:46:10 <Sgeo> I'm the 'his friend'
22:46:34 <Sgeo> And then Wikicities turned Wikia turned evil.
22:47:13 <shachaf> wow you made wikia? how could you : (
22:47:16 <Bike> has anyone ever heard the phrase "open-access software" used to describe you know what
22:47:50 <Sgeo> shachaf, no, but I started several wikis on Wikia, including what was once the most popular one there
22:48:02 <Sgeo> Well, not sure if 'most popular', but certainly well known
22:48:04 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: free software and all
22:48:28 <Bike> an anthropologist in this book
22:48:38 <Bike> complete with Old White Guy Scare Quotes
22:49:11 <Sgeo> anthropologistologists?
22:50:55 <Bike> #esoteric can't even explain sgeo.
22:52:08 <Bike> i don't think even god knows that
22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, i'm not sure i even want to dwell on that question
22:53:19 <zzo38> Some things are very difficult to explain.
22:53:26 <zzo38> That is just how it is.
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22:56:26 <Bike> oh is this that thing about ending sentences with prepositions
22:56:30 <Bike> what's even the point of that
22:57:11 <Bike> some latin wankery, you mean?
22:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the result of the victorians having trouble getting their heads around the whole latin /= english thing
23:02:29 <zzo38> Now I made the Deadfish Z-machine story file even shorter; now it is only 128 bytes long (i.e. 64 bytes other than the header).
23:03:00 <shachaf> a fine note on which to retire on
23:03:23 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Can there be much of a story in 128 bytes?
23:03:51 <zzo38> Lumpio-: No, but a Z-machine program file is commonly called a "story file", even though it isn't a story.
23:04:19 <Lumpio-> But aren't Z-machine programs usually text adventure games
23:04:23 <Lumpio-> You can't fit a lot of text in that.
23:04:33 <Lumpio-> I'm guessing it's not even a game.
23:04:42 <zzo38> Yes, they usually are, but not always. Yes, in this case it is not even a game.
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23:11:58 <zzo38> I have used a few tricks to shorten it so that it will fit in 128 bytes. Can you shorten it even more?
23:17:02 <Lumpio-> People who know what the "Deadfish Z-machine story file" is, please raise your hand
23:18:19 <zzo38> This is the assembly codes of it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Frolg Now you can know what it is, and raise your hand too, especially if you put the keyboard on top of the monitor instead of below.
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23:20:11 <Lumpio-> Does that even count as a programming language
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23:21:07 <Lumpio-> It's kind of boring in that it's essentially just a really crappy encoding for a series of numbers.
23:22:19 <zzo38> Yes, I think that is all that it is; nevertheless, they were trying to make a programming language, and now it is retarded, and there are many implementations of it anyways, just as much that there are many implementation of Truth-machine and 99 bottles of beer.
23:22:21 <Lumpio-> If that's a programming language, then the output of gzip is
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23:23:53 <zzo38> I think you are correct.
23:24:58 <Sgeo> Hmm there's a thing called Glulx
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23:26:32 <zzo38> Yes, Glulx is another virtual machine for text adventure games, this time 32-bit machine. Deadfish could probably be made in Glulx too if you want to.
23:27:08 <Lumpio-> You should make a deadfish compiler that compiles it into a .txt file that can be executed with cat
23:27:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, do you prefer Z-machine or glulx?
23:27:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I prefer the Z-machine.
23:27:45 <Sgeo> Any particular reasons
23:28:06 <zzo38> One thing I think Z-machine is better designed in many ways.
23:29:07 <zzo38> (It isn't quite perfect, though; there are a few things I would have done slightly differently.)
23:31:23 <nooodl^> zzo38, do you know anything about how the free infocom dos versions of zork are implemented? the parser is very interesting
23:32:03 <nooodl^> it has a huge amount of synonyms but i dont know how to find a list of them
23:32:10 <zzo38> nooodl^: No, I don't know much about it.
23:32:20 <zzo38> To find the list you could try using a disassembler, I suppose.
23:32:45 <zzo38> You could also try looking at the source-codes for the MDL version.
23:33:35 <nooodl^> apparently theres like a billion versions of zork
23:34:47 <Sgeo> Can I play Zork legally for free?
23:34:50 <zzo38> I do have a SQL database containing the headers for all the Infocom games, including all of the versions of Zork, so you could at least see how many different versions, how much RAM they use, etc, even though I don't have all of the data of the files.
23:35:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, you can play the MDL Zork legally for free, at least. Other than that, I don't know.
23:35:49 <nooodl^> the infocom site offers legal free downloads for dos too
23:36:34 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have seen that when someone was trying to download the game; the ".DAT" file should be renamed and then loaded with any Z-machine interpreter.
23:37:30 <nooodl^> yeah its a z5 file in disguise iirc
23:38:06 <zzo38> You can tell what version by reading the first byte of the file; whatever it is, put 'z' and then that number.
23:39:37 <nooodl^> i should write a text adventure in haskell once
23:40:18 <zzo38> nooodl^: Yes, you could do once, either to compile into native code or make a Haskell library for representing and compiling Z-machine story files.
23:40:21 <copumpkin> if you had a domain called zzo38.ca, and you inverted the domain (say in a java package name), the inversion would spell ca.zzo38, where cazzo in italian means something vulgar
23:40:46 <zzo38> copumpkin: Well, that isn't my domain name, so I am not having that problem.
23:41:03 <copumpkin> just wanted to point it out in case you wanted to get that domain and then make java packages
23:41:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you have the domain pumpkin.co
23:41:32 <zzo38> However I intend to neither get that domain name nor to make Java packages.
23:41:48 <shachaf> .co: the tld for categorical duals
23:42:08 <Lumpio-> It's the TLD for Colombia .__.
23:42:16 <Lumpio-> I wonder if it'd be possible to get a really short domain name
23:42:20 <Lumpio-> Without paying ridiculous amounts
23:42:26 <kmc> google translates it as "fuck", "cock", "shit", "fucking", or "dick"
23:42:34 <Lumpio-> It'll pretty much have to be a ccTLD because they're the only two character ones
23:42:46 <Lumpio-> More than I want to pay for my personal use
23:43:06 <nooodl^> has a cheapish four char domain name, thanks unicode.
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23:53:58 <Sgeo> I wish it was possible for me to build my own gaming laptop
23:55:17 <shachaf> Hmm, I could register .fi names.
23:56:00 <Lumpio-> I have a feeling .fi doesn't even allow names shorter than two anymore
23:56:12 <Lumpio-> I think there was a short time in the beginning of the interwebs when it was allowed so there are *some*
23:58:28 <Lumpio-> hm, actually you can get two character .fi domains
23:59:00 -!- comex has changed nick to PrincessKaDenza.
23:59:10 <Lumpio-> But I bet all two character acronyms are trademarked
23:59:24 <mnoqy> shachaf: shacha.fi?
00:00:00 <Lumpio-> Also two character names that are the same as country codes are forbidden
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00:13:24 <HackEgo> 420) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly
00:13:39 <kmc> 420 quote itidus20 every day
00:13:50 <kmc> i like it when words line up on consecutive lines ~by accident~
00:14:30 <shachaf> it when words line up on consecutive lines ~by accident~ is my worst nemesis
00:14:33 <kmc> there should be an irssi plugin that adjusts text to make this happen
00:14:49 <kmc> i forgot what this is called in typesetting
00:14:53 <kmc> related to but distinct from rivers and lakes
00:14:57 <Bike> "dicking around"
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01:26:43 <elliott> kmc: do you have any submissions to the topic-for-when-the-wsj-guy-comes competition
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01:33:08 <shachaf> Sgeo: What happened to the `olist update scheduled for Monday?
01:33:36 <Sgeo> I was in a WSJ article about Wikicities, then Wikicities turned evil. If I'm in a WSJ article about #esoteric, does this mean #esoteric is going to turn evil?
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01:34:07 <Sgeo> shachaf, you should post that question on the GiantITP forums. I'm sure it will be just fine asking that sort of question there.
01:34:09 <shachaf> #esoteric is beyond good and evil
01:34:11 <Sgeo> Again and again.
01:34:30 <shachaf> Sgeo: Why ask it at the forums when I can ask it at the source?
01:34:45 <shachaf> whoa, dude, you have an account there
01:34:57 <Sgeo> You want an `olist, have a meaningless `olist
01:35:01 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
01:35:22 <Sgeo> (Note for innocent victims: Do not check OOTS because of that `olist)
01:35:31 <shachaf> It's still at 890! You liar!
01:35:37 <shachaf> You should make sure it's updated first.
01:38:08 <shachaf> How many Order of the Stick fans don't play D&D? I don't (although I do play NetHack sometimes, and am thoroughly spoiled, and since NetHack has D&D as one source of inspiration, it's not like I'm completely unaware of D&D mechanics and stuff.) Anyone who was completely unaware of D&D mechanics before OotS?
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01:38:54 <mnoqy> sounds like a grea tforum
01:39:39 <Sgeo> shachaf, I see an update
01:39:40 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/lJZUMe8.png
01:40:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: wow i must be having cache problems like oerjan
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01:50:54 <Sgeo> I have 502 followers on Twitter
01:51:18 <Sgeo> Or, well, my @oots_update account does.
01:52:36 <elliott> wow and you were in the wsj
01:53:42 <shachaf> why is there an oots_update account
01:54:02 <shachaf> why not just subscribe to RichBurlew
01:54:17 <Sgeo> shachaf, because oots_update was created before RichBurlew
01:54:27 <shachaf> yes but why is oots_update still functional
01:54:51 <Sgeo> Meh, does it really make sense to force people to switch?
01:55:12 <Sgeo> Lemme check if I at least tweeted about it
01:55:28 <Sgeo> "Rich Burlew is on Twitter! @RichBurlew"
01:55:51 <Sgeo> Which, I guess isn't quite the same as "You don't need to follow me anymore, you can just follow @RichBurlew"
01:56:02 <shachaf> You should start retweeterizing his tweeterees.
01:56:11 <kmc> elliott: is the WSJ guy actually going to come?
01:57:02 <elliott> 22:55:04 <cpressey> oh! oh! got an email response back
01:57:04 <elliott> 22:55:38 <cpressey> "A chat on #esoteric works for me."
01:57:06 <elliott> 22:55:48 <cpressey> i need a drink
01:57:09 <kmc> <shachaf> #esoteric is beyond good and evil <--- beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond death
01:57:12 <kmc> elliott: wowow
01:57:29 <elliott> 23:06:40 <cpressey> oh, and his days are tues, weds, thurs this week.
01:57:43 <Bike> the main variable here is of course zzo38's availability
01:58:20 <Sgeo> shachaf, also, if someone is following both me and oots_update but not RichBurlew that may indicate to me that they are following/stalking me specifically even with the oots_update follow
01:58:52 <coppro> I read twatter sometimes
01:58:53 <coppro> sometimes I even twaat
01:59:16 <Bike> i mostly follow twitters because it's taken me forever to find good biology blogs
01:59:29 <Bike> btw did you know that turing's most cited paper is the biology one
02:00:03 <Sgeo> twitter : tweet :: twatter : twuut
02:00:05 <Bike> after the war he kinda turned to biochemistry
02:00:20 <Bike> he wrote a paper "The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis" about how shape is developed by growing organisms
02:00:46 <kmc> is it... correct
02:01:21 <Bike> well it's pretty abstract, as you might expect from a bio paper that involves considerations of symmetry-preserving transformations
02:02:01 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/zcomp/zcomp.sql The V_QUALIFY trigger seems to be too long; do you want to fix it?
02:02:11 <Bike> oh jesus, it has 7136 cites
02:02:15 <FreeFull> I think most people know that Einstein got his nobel prize for the work on the photoelectric effect
02:02:28 <zzo38> Bike: I am available now, of course.
02:02:30 <Bike> the photoelectric effect is pretty baller as far as i'm concerned
02:02:42 <Bike> shachaf: uh. yes?
02:02:55 <shachaf> i know someone whose paper has ~3000 citations or something
02:02:59 <Bike> I mean, it's not unheard of, but it's a lot more than the average.
02:03:01 <shachaf> that's like being half-turing!!
02:03:45 <Sgeo> Ok, that gave me a WTF moment for a second
02:03:46 <Sgeo> "Oprah Winfrey Verified account @Oprah
02:03:46 <Sgeo> Followed by Seth Gold"
02:03:59 <Sgeo> Some DJ named Seth Gold
02:04:02 <zzo38> Maybe I can try to fix it something else, such as making a table to store those results and then to do that instead, since I would need to repeat mostly the same V_QUALIFY trigger for each field of the VOTE table
02:04:05 <Bike> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14076813763086182113
02:04:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you available Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday?
02:04:22 <Bike> I don't actually remember what his thesis was. something something with applications to the longgermannameproblem
02:04:29 <zzo38> And that there doesn't seems the way to make a field name as a parameter
02:04:34 <Bike> the title of it, i mean
02:04:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Tuesday this week (that is tomorrow), but not all day; I should be available in the evening (my timezone is Pacific)
02:05:31 <shachaf> zzo38: I can tell your timezone is Pacific, because all the cool people have that timezone.
02:06:00 <zzo38> That isn't a very good way to tell.
02:07:17 <shachaf> What's a good way to tell?
02:07:34 <zzo38> By sending a TIME message to me
02:07:44 <Bike> wow let's see here, it's cited by krugman, von neumann, levin, wolfram, kelso, Intanagonwiwat (i don't know who this is but i like their name), lindenmayer (of l-systems), prigogine, and that's about it for name si recognize
02:09:04 <shachaf> is James Kalenius an actual name that you would use for publishing papers and things
02:10:55 <Bike> do you dislike it?
02:11:12 <kmc> FreeFull: i think almost nobody knows that
02:11:32 <kmc> if you ask the average person what einstein did, they will come up with "E=mc²" and nothing else and probably not know what it means either
02:11:48 <kmc> maybe I misunderestimate my fellow human beings
02:11:54 <copumpkin> einstein didn't pass highschool math
02:12:29 <Bike> copumpkin: http://neilcicierega.tumblr.com/post/50354803614
02:12:29 <zzo38> Einstein also said socks get holes in them.
02:12:35 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/6f88cbc2ae1fc13e6fa7f1ec07bdd83d/tumblr_mmpzoljQ4N1qzgnzho1_500.png http://25.media.tumblr.com/8bd807033be7887e1d08fb29763ea3b6/tumblr_mmr1tg53J21qzgnzho1_500.jpg
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02:14:21 <Bike> in his famous "annus mirabilis" papers, einstein showed that flash animations about Shaq Fu could actually be pretty funny
02:14:55 <shachaf> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942299_10151934516699466_1761459223_n.jpg
02:15:46 <Bike> i'm scared shachaf
02:18:14 <kmc> i hope the WSJ reporter has already joined and is lurking while we talk about them
02:18:17 <kmc> or is log-reading
02:18:36 <FreeFull> I don't think they know what IRC is
02:18:43 <mnoqy> but they agreed to it
02:18:58 <kmc> i assume cpressey gave instructions when he suggested irc as the interview venue
02:19:18 <elliott> kmc: didnt you read his email
02:19:22 <elliott> we literally know exactly what he said
02:19:23 <Bike> Maybe hagb4rd is the reporter.
02:19:33 <Bike> I'm just saying.
02:19:48 <elliott> "It should be held on IRC -- in the #esoteric channel on freenode." no instructions
02:20:55 <kmc> elliott has made an ass out of u and me
02:21:09 <Bike> Maybe elliott's the reporter. Maybe I'm the reporter. Maybe we're all the reporter
02:21:32 <Bike> I am the wall street journal. Hear me
02:21:34 <shachaf> elliott "the reporter" Bike
02:21:35 <kmc> who will report the reporter
02:21:58 <kmc> should i tell the reporter that i used copies of WSJ as food for oyster mushrooms
02:22:20 <Bike> "In the first place, for instance, men are more often found standing on their feet than their heads."
02:22:29 <elliott> do you have the "drugs" ready for our interview
02:22:45 <kmc> insert hunter s thompson reference
02:22:46 <Bike> the finest oyster hallucinogens
02:22:59 <FreeFull> Sure, the "dogs" are "stuffed" full of the "drugs"
02:22:59 <shachaf> Bike: that sounds like _Mathematics Made Difficult_.........
02:23:02 <shachaf> but it's actually turing??
02:23:12 <kmc> 'Pleurotus means "side ear", from Greek πλευρή (pleurē), "side"[4] + ὠτός (ōtos), genitive of οὖς (ous), "ear".'
02:23:20 <kmc> that's the genus of oyster mushrooms
02:23:40 <elliott> hm should i say my favourite esolang is Esme or that other one
02:23:50 <elliott> i've forgotten what that other one is
02:23:54 <kmc> oyster mushrooms eat nematodes
02:24:02 <Bike> shachaf: good book
02:25:03 <mnoqy> id like to see a report on fuckfuck
02:25:13 <elliott> the REAL joke: everyone (including me) is going to try too hard to be stupid and it'll end up awkward and unfunny and the journalist will give up and we'll regret being jerks
02:25:24 <mnoqy> the real joke is i wont do that
02:25:29 <mnoqy> ill play off of you guys trying too hard
02:25:32 <mnoqy> thats how itll go down
02:25:51 <Bike> elliott: oh you put it better.
02:25:58 <mnoqy> the real joke is ill sleep through it tho
02:26:19 <zzo38> If you can tell me (and everyone else) what time we are supposed to be available on this IRC for this interview, then we can try to do that, please.
02:26:25 <Bike> let me just consult the loge
02:27:06 <Bike> oh i said: "it'll probably be boring"
02:27:37 <elliott> zzo38: you'll have to ask chris, maybe he will know by tomorrow
02:27:53 <Bike> because people will try hard to be jerks for about two seconds before remembering that that's actually kind of a boring thing to do
02:28:38 <elliott> well i mean i'm still going to give nonsense because i literally can't do anything else
02:29:07 <zzo38> Then let's the people who will be not entirely 100% nonsense.
02:29:21 <Bike> let's the people indeed. i will not be letting myself
02:31:29 <elliott> so this has to be the first time a journalist has used irc since like 1992
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02:37:28 <Sgeo> I want to be here for this :(
02:37:43 <kmc> you seem sad that you want to be here for this
02:37:53 <zzo38> But you should know what time it is, to do so!
02:38:04 <zzo38> I also want to know what time it should be!
02:38:06 <kmc> put the time in the topic
02:39:23 <Sgeo> What if it's MissPiggy or cheater pulling a prank?
02:39:33 <Sgeo> I don't know if either of those two are really the sort
02:39:35 <kmc> ROBOT HOOOOUSE!
02:44:02 <elliott> cheaters busy trolling #haskell these days and did you just pick MissPiggy out of a list of banned users or something because what
02:44:51 <elliott> also do you really think chris wouldn't check the reliability of such an email before putting a response on his website and asking us about it
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03:05:20 <Sgeo> elliott, there are banned users besides cheater and MissPiggy?
03:05:45 <elliott> you realise misspiggy has been back like five times since using that name and isn't banned right
03:06:03 <elliott> but yes dbelange is banned too
03:06:59 <Sgeo> That name sounds vaguely but not fully familiar
03:11:43 <copumpkin> elliott: what was the most recent?
03:11:45 <Sgeo> Who was dbelange?
03:12:26 <elliott> copumpkin: uhhh i think j-invariant or crystal-cola
03:12:45 <elliott> Sgeo: guy who came here a few times to troll badly
03:12:57 <elliott> coppro's fault or something
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03:13:40 <Sgeo> Someone by that name was banned on Wikipedia
03:13:44 <elliott> copumpkin: there was someone in #haskell recently who reminded me of her but it was just a hunch and I've forgotten by now
03:13:46 <copumpkin> can't remember who I spoke to who knew him in person, said he was smart but weird and enjoyed trolling way too much
03:14:05 <elliott> coppro said his university gets complaints from random IRC servers about him or something
03:14:06 <copumpkin> there was someone with a mathy sounding name that reminded me
03:14:10 <coppro> copumpkin: I've met him
03:14:23 <copumpkin> coppro: have any more color to add?
03:14:25 <coppro> copumpkin: he's a grad of my school and pops by every now and then
03:14:31 <kmc> i used to troll /r/atheism
03:14:37 <coppro> nope, you about summed it up
03:14:51 <coppro> last I saw him he was trolling ##math by posting questions taken from /r/math
03:14:56 <coppro> in the chair behind me
03:15:10 <coppro> he's now studying symbolic logic somewhere
03:15:16 <kmc> who was the guy who trolled #haskell by taking GHC bug reports, obfuscating the reproducers, and then asking why the code didn't work
03:15:27 <Sgeo> http://www.bitchx.com/log/math-f/math-f-11-Feb-2010/math-f-11-Feb-2010-08.php
03:15:33 <elliott> i would take that over the usual #haskell trolling
03:15:37 <Sgeo> That page is called 'dbelange troll'
03:17:11 <elliott> i flagged a guy on SO today for asking questions like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15865631/type-a-is-not-equal-to-type-a-in-haskell-ghci-interpreter
03:17:20 <elliott> oh i meant http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15815931/haskell-missing-identifier-even-though-its-defined-one-line-above
03:17:26 <kmc> wait pokoko222 and MissPiggy are also trolls
03:17:29 <kmc> is this channel like #troll
03:17:40 <elliott> misspiggy isn't a troll per se
03:17:49 <copumpkin> and pokoko was just ridiculously overenthusiastic, I thought
03:18:00 <elliott> i miss having her around actually
03:19:11 <kmc> what did she do
03:19:26 <shachaf> remember badtruffle? what a troublemaker
03:19:40 <copumpkin> she was pretty knowledgeable but had a really big temper
03:19:49 <copumpkin> used to talk a lot in #agda and #epigram
03:20:25 <elliott> she got frustrated with almost everyone in #haskell and here and put them on ignore and complained about #haskell people here in stuff and eventually left or got banned for whatever, this happened like two or three times and she'd appear again under another nick months later
03:20:58 <elliott> i was kind of a jerk to her at some points and i regret it :(
03:21:23 <copumpkin> hunt her down and ask her to come back?
03:21:54 <mnoqy> what name does she even use these days
03:21:59 <kmc> it does make sense to get frustrated with almost everyone in #haskell
03:22:05 <elliott> well I don't know how and it'd feel stalkery, there is http://muaddibspace.blogspot.co.uk/ and http://natural-deductions.blogspot.co.uk/ but they don't have any contact info (though cpressey left a comment trying to get in touch once, I don't know if he got any response)
03:22:09 <kmc> i don't complain about specific people here very much, though
03:22:13 <elliott> I think she deleted all her reddit accounts
03:22:45 <copumpkin> wasn't she adjunction or something like that
03:22:53 <elliott> kmc: by almost everyone I mean incl. regulars, ops and so on
03:23:12 <elliott> (not that she was entirely wrong about it but it wasn't an ideal way of expressing her irritations)
03:23:31 <shachaf> I can understand getting frustrated with certain #haskell ops.
03:24:41 <shachaf> #haskell-ops has frustrating people too. for example me.
03:25:12 <lambdabot> monochrom says: #haskell-blah has brilliant people too. for example me.
03:25:19 <elliott> kmc: did shachaf tell you about your moment of fame
03:26:03 <shachaf> you mean when i quoted him out of context in -ops?
03:26:28 <elliott> I guess there is a github account with repos too, so probably those have an email
03:26:36 <elliott> I think she might hate me though, so probably I am not the best person to make contact anyway
03:29:22 <kmc> what did i do on coq club
03:30:07 <copumpkin> will let y'all know if she replies
03:30:44 <elliott> kmc: copumpkin didn't mean you, if that's what you meant
03:31:01 <kmc> what was my moment of fame
03:31:03 <copumpkin> oh I meant I'd found a promising email address for her on coq-club
03:36:18 * pikhq_ feels slightly weird seeing "muaddibspace" up there.
03:36:25 * pikhq_ has two gerbils, named "Muad" and "Dib".
03:39:27 <Bike> elliott: what the heck is the point of the stack overflow question
03:39:44 <elliott> that's why i flagged the guy!!
03:39:59 <Bike> what possible motivation could you have
03:40:23 <elliott> copumpkin: on reddit at least yeah
03:40:38 <copumpkin> found a random comment on a blog under that
03:41:48 <elliott> copumpkin: did you hear this channel is getting interviewed by the WSJ??????????
03:42:01 <elliott> truly the golden age of esolangs is upon us
03:42:11 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/wsj.html
03:47:34 <mnoqy> 2k13 year of esolang on the desktop
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03:57:17 <Sgeo> I don't know if being able to run Linux and Windows at the same time is worth losing being able to play with Virtualbox
03:58:11 * pikhq_ snickers at the zzo38 suggestion
04:05:09 <zzo38> Although I have things to say about it, I am not the only one, so it should be done in the IRC that everyone can answer.
04:06:49 <kmc> yesterday I had the pleasure of explaining why there are more ordinal numbers than cardinal numbers
04:06:52 <kmc> fsvo 'more'
04:07:27 <Bike> because ordinals are orderings of sets and cardinals are just sizes?
04:08:38 <kmc> not orderings of sets
04:09:00 <kmc> so, if all you have is sets, you can construct the natural numbers inductively like so: 0 = {}, 1 = {0}, 2 = {0,1}, 3 = {0,1,2}, etc
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04:09:20 <kmc> every natural number is the set of numbers less than it
04:09:26 <elliott> um that's not valid without the axiom of infinity kmc
04:09:44 <elliott> so it's not a construction but an appeal to an axiom!!!
04:09:57 <elliott> sorry i thought the idea of doing this in #esoteric was so that you could have everyone be annoying and pedantic about it
04:10:13 <Bike> no the idea is that he says a thing that's less wrong than the thing i said
04:10:23 <kmc> elliott: "constructing things from sets" means working in the axioms of a set theory
04:10:40 <kmc> and since I didn't say which one, you would assume ZF
04:10:40 <elliott> ok i will allow it.... this time
04:10:59 <elliott> actually i assumed you were working in New Foundations
04:11:05 <elliott> that's a total lie i just wanted to annoy you by saying it
04:11:33 <kmc> anyway. the set ℕ = {0,1,2,...} of *all* natural numbers looks like one of these
04:11:50 <kmc> so we call that the first transfinite ordinal and name it ω rather than ℕ for some reason
04:12:36 <kmc> but then you can also build the set ω ∪ {ω} and what would you call that other than ω+1?
04:13:09 <kmc> and you can make ω+2, ω+3, ω*2, ω*ω, etc
04:13:41 <coppro> kmc: I don't get it. What is ω*2?
04:13:45 <kmc> basically since you know how to do arithmetic on naturals, and those are just sets, you can apply the same operations to these transfinite ordinals
04:14:19 <kmc> and ω ≠ ω+1 ≠ ω+2; they are sets with different elements
04:14:35 <kmc> but they can be put into bijection with each other, so they have the same cardinality (size)
04:14:36 <Bike> coppro: just define multiplication on the naturals-as-sets and then apply that to these weirdo things
04:14:53 <kmc> right. i'm trying to remember how multiplication on naturals-as-sets works
04:15:11 <coppro> it's not obvious, hence why I asked ;)
04:15:13 <kmc> oh nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic
04:15:32 <Bike> i think you'll find that it's Trivial because I don't want to remember enough to explain it
04:15:37 <elliott> prediction: at some point someone will vandalise one of the axioms on the ZFC wikipedia article
04:15:46 <elliott> and mathematicians will actually adopt these vandalised axioms
04:15:54 <elliott> because they looked them up to remember
04:16:11 <Bike> prediction: nobody actually uses ZFC besides set theorists anyway
04:16:26 <elliott> and nobody likes set theorists ~type theory 4eva~
04:16:41 <Bike> the same would work (not work) for martin lof axioms, i'm sure
04:16:42 <elliott> i'm sorry that you've taken it upon yourself to be so wrong
04:17:43 <Bike> except that presently type theoretic research is more popular than set theoretic research, probably, so maybe researchers get tats of judgements or whatever
04:18:08 <elliott> i don't think type theory research is more popular than set theory research :P
04:19:01 <Bike> you think? i mean obviously some of it's where i hang out (here) but the most recent set theory thing i've read wasn't ZFC anyway
04:19:20 <zzo38> Z-Comp #1 is now open for entry!
04:20:26 <elliott> Bike: it's all esoteric large cardinals crap
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04:20:44 <Bike> well yeah but i mean how many people care about that
04:20:53 <Bike> compared to whatever the fuck type theorists do
04:21:06 <elliott> well mostly only computer scientists compare about type theory and generally those are considered to "not count"
04:21:20 <Bike> but there are a lot of them!
04:21:31 <Bike> i thought mathematicians proper were more concerned with like topology usually
04:21:36 <elliott> also everything is usually formulated in sets, if it's formulated at all
04:21:40 <Bike> and hey guess how easy it is to get from there to typeshits
04:21:52 <elliott> ok but you have to realise how fucking crazy homotopy type theory is.
04:21:52 <Bike> well sets are super easy and pretty familiar
04:21:57 <coppro> Bike: I'm concerned with things that start with q
04:22:04 <Bike> yes it's crazy /but/ so is algebraic topology
04:22:11 <coppro> things that start with q
04:22:21 <Bike> coppro: i'm. what are you talking about.
04:22:23 <Bike> fuck matroids though.
04:22:30 <coppro> quantum this, quantum that
04:22:40 <Bike> isn't that like physics usually
04:22:46 <Bike> with an occasional CSist
04:23:08 <coppro> and a shitton of combinatorialists and cryptographers in the middle
04:23:26 <Bike> combinatorics is the bomb
04:23:39 <Bike> can you explain combinatorics facts such as: why i am shit at it
04:24:00 * coppro gets to spend tomorrow trying to figure out why sage and nauty appear to have different notions of canonical graph labelings and what to do about it
04:26:58 <elliott> kmc: your explanation went off the rails a bit
04:28:29 <Bike> because he explained it?
04:28:47 <coppro> because I interrupted with helpful questions
04:29:06 <coppro> since I refuse to accept that the definition of ordinal arithmentic is "etc."
04:29:21 <Bike> some mathematician you are
04:29:42 <shachaf> <#haskeller> well getLine :: IO String contains a thunk that when evaluated reads characters of a line from standard input
04:29:47 <Bike> anyway is it actually formalized that there are more ordinals than cardinals? i mean obviously you can't take the cardinality of all cardinals
04:29:53 <shachaf> wrong things considered harmful :'(
04:30:02 <coppro> Bike: the cardinals are a strict subset of the ordinals
04:30:24 <coppro> however, the way this works in practice is *really* wonky
04:30:37 <kmc> shachaf: :(
04:30:42 <kmc> shachaf: aren't you an op
04:30:47 <kmc> can't you tell them they're wrong
04:30:50 <kmc> and be listened to
04:31:26 <coppro> because the map α -> א_α is injective
04:31:31 <coppro> but it has many fixed points
04:32:29 <shachaf> The annoying part is that they were "helping" someone else.
04:32:32 <elliott> kmc: i told them they were wrong
04:32:35 <shachaf> I don't really know what to do.
04:32:45 <elliott> but i was a bit mean and got called out on it :P
04:32:59 <kmc> is this particular person often wrong?
04:33:02 <elliott> (not that i was trying to sound mean)
04:33:08 <elliott> i've never seen their name before
04:33:14 <Bike> so how would you describe getLine
04:33:17 <kmc> then i'm not sure there's much you can do other than correct them
04:33:21 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
04:33:36 <Bike> is that also wrong
04:33:40 <Bike> what is wrong what is write
04:33:44 <kmc> Bike: it's an IO action and *executing* it is what produces the line
04:33:47 <kmc> not *evaluating*
04:33:56 <Bike> how is that different from the thunk thing
04:34:01 <Bike> oh, "evaluating"
04:34:10 <shachaf> Evaluation is distinct from execution.
04:34:19 <Bike> right yeah ok got it nerds
04:34:20 <elliott> i don't even like to speak of execution of IO actions
04:34:23 <shachaf> Execution is something that an interpreter does.
04:34:26 <elliott> it makes people think it's something haskell can do
04:34:38 <kmc> shachaf: preferably correct them with a link to the faq (PLUG PLUG PLUG)
04:34:57 <shachaf> Also I link to the FAQ a lot!
04:35:13 <elliott> someone wondered why it didn't cover some common thing a day or so ago!!
04:35:18 <elliott> if only you had been there to Hear The Need
04:35:18 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log$ grep '<shachaf> @where faq' ALL | wc -l
04:35:29 <kmc> if only it were a wiki and other people could add stuff
04:35:30 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
04:35:42 <kmc> elliott has edited the FAQ though
04:35:44 <elliott> kmc: hey, i edited it once
04:35:44 <kmc> so props to him
04:36:08 <shachaf> <#haskeller> 1. learn about monoids (which most people find pretty easy), 2. learn about endofunctors, 3. now you know about monads
04:36:14 <shachaf> i can't help but feel slightly responsible :'(
04:36:23 <elliott> shachaf: you should give different #haskellers different identifiers
04:36:33 <shachaf> That was <#otherhaskeller>
04:36:38 <Bike> you're giving me an image of the true platonic haskeller
04:36:49 <Bike> "In addition, some people write articles about advanced math, using Haskell syntax as their notation. These articles are interesting, but the connection to everyday programming work is usually remote." very elliott
04:36:59 <kmc> "#haskeller" could be an image macro like Scumbag Steve or whatever
04:37:16 <elliott> no it couldn't don't say things like that
04:37:20 <shachaf> Just what reddit.com/r/haskell needs!
04:37:22 <Bike> i saw an image macro comparing feminists negatively to MRAs today
04:37:26 <Bike> so fuck image macros clearly
04:37:38 <kmc> time to burn down this internet and get a new one
04:37:46 <elliott> Bike: i don't like that answer so much "Not My Preferred Part Of The Faq"
04:38:14 <elliott> best faq section is... section 5, it contains all the wrong things people ask for
04:38:18 <Bike> i need more insults
04:38:42 <Bike> "I'm making an RPG. Should I define a type for each kind of monster, and a type class for them?" what the heck
04:39:06 <kmc> shachaf: maybe you can bother other people to edit the faq more? my purpose in writing it was not like "i am kmc and here are the eternal truths of haskell" but like, a starting point for The Community to build a Consensus about how to explain things
04:39:15 <shachaf> Clearly you should make a *kind* for each kind of monster.
04:39:26 <elliott> kmc: getting a wiki account is annoying and you need one to edit
04:39:33 <elliott> kmc: and nobody edits the wiki and it's a bunch of work
04:39:37 <zzo38> I think the correct answer depends on a lot of things.
04:39:38 <elliott> i doubt most people even know you wrote it all
04:39:45 <elliott> as in, that's not why they're not editing
04:39:49 <Bike> gotta make my RPG isomorphic to lob's theorem
04:39:53 <kmc> if there's a Getting kmc Back To #haskell project then getting other people to edit the FAQ would help
04:39:59 <kmc> elliott: oh ,I know it's not why they're not editing
04:40:03 <elliott> wow you discovered our secret plot
04:40:07 <shachaf> kmc: It's much easier to Cale it in IRC than to edit the FAQ.
04:40:08 <elliott> we have club meetings and everything
04:40:19 <kmc> transferring it to an easier to edit venue would also be a fine plan
04:40:20 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Now I can just point people at a readable and relevant paper instead of having to Cale it.
04:40:44 <shachaf> kmc: I've answered a few stackoverflow.com questions! That's like adding to a mega-FAQ.
04:40:59 <kmc> Ever Asked Questions
04:41:04 <shachaf> My highest-voted answer is a pseudo-monad-tutorial. :-(
04:41:07 <Bike> man i should just not talk yes
04:41:31 <zzo38> To make RPG computer games I think SQL is not a bad programming language for doing so.
04:41:50 <kmc> SELECT key; INSERT key INTO door;
04:41:52 <elliott> Bike: it's what monochrom calls "lecture replays"
04:42:16 <zzo38> kmc: That isn't how it is done, though.
04:42:23 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log$ grep '<Cale>.*double (double 5' ALL | wc -l
04:42:24 <kmc> Bike: basically if you ask a Frequently Asked Question in #haskell then 2-5 people start typing out their favorite boilerplate answer into the channel
04:42:34 <Bike> yeah i know how that goes
04:42:39 <kmc> maybe then they'll argue about which one is better
04:42:42 <kmc> or just talk past each other
04:42:53 <kmc> this pissed me off and eventually I quit
04:43:01 <elliott> kmc: i think it's more like two boilerplate answers nowadays
04:43:03 <mnoqy> "double (double"???????????
04:43:10 <mnoqy> how many people do @faq
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04:43:19 <shachaf> mnoqy: "i think it's an in-n-out thing"
04:43:20 <kmc> people weren't interested in collaborating to find a good way to explain stuff
04:43:23 <elliott> mnoqy: cale has an example he uses to explain lazy evaluation
04:43:28 <elliott> it involves reduction of some doublings
04:43:35 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcEaHT9mt-Y good AI
04:43:36 <elliott> but i didn't realise he'd used it that many times
04:43:45 <elliott> shachaf: wait does that match multiple lines of the reduction
04:44:19 <shachaf> OK, I'll be fairer and only count one per day.
04:45:16 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log/haskell$ grep -l '<Cale>.*double (double 5' 0* 1* | wc -l
04:45:43 <mnoqy> tha'ts still a lot
04:46:49 <mnoqy> whoa thats freaky shachaf he just joined
04:46:54 <mnoqy> are you in "correspondance"
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04:50:10 <kmc> shachaf: do you think the ops and other regulators understand why i wrote the FAQ and why I care that other people edit it?
04:52:31 <kmc> er I meant to write "regulars", lolol
04:52:53 <elliott> i was imagining a beautiful #haskell bureaucracy
04:52:54 <Bike> kmc are you like the lost old man of that channel
04:53:00 <kmc> what would that entail exactly
04:53:27 <Bike> thousands of years ago, the great sage, kmc, set down the Frequent Questions for all the people of this channel
04:53:57 <elliott> kmc: btw it is great that you messaged preflex because everyone who does "seen kmc" gets 05:53:41 <preflex> kmc was last seen 364 days, 21 hours, 31 minutes and 13 seconds ago, saying: <private message>
04:54:08 <elliott> (this has happened multiple times)
04:54:11 <shachaf> imo you should talk about why you left and what you're unhappy with etc. rather than have me quote you out of context in -ops, if you want people to know
04:54:23 <kmc> i have an unposted blog post about it
04:54:43 <kmc> it's not important to me personally that people know exactly why i left
04:55:09 <kmc> I have some ideas about how to make the channel better, and several of the ops know what they are (via #esoteric mainly I guess?!?!?!?)
04:55:18 <kmc> so I guess I have done my part
04:55:30 <kmc> and it's up to y'all to implement them or not, as you see fit
04:55:37 <elliott> sort of worry that a public blog post will stir up drama / people going "omg did you hear this channel sux" in #haskell / trolls realising they can join and be catered to with helpfulness for hours (this already happens to some extent, targetting at least one person known to be helpful)
04:55:45 <kmc> elliott: yeah
04:55:49 <kmc> that was one reason not to post it
04:56:00 <kmc> also it would break a longstanding rule of not posting fluff on my blog
04:56:01 <shachaf> There is a lot of disagreement between ops on the right way to handle things.
04:56:02 <kmc> fsvo fluff
04:56:02 <Bike> this sounds complicated
04:56:04 <elliott> maybe you could make a super secret post and shachaf can drop it into -ops!!
04:56:11 <kmc> yeah an anonymous pastebin!!!!
04:56:17 <shachaf> Including at least one who says that he likes feeding trolls.
04:56:26 <elliott> that's not quite the kind of super secret i meant but that works too
04:57:04 <elliott> ok here's what we do: we make kmc a #haskell op just so he can talk in -ops without actually rejoining #haskell
04:57:19 <kmc> can my title be "Consigliere"
04:57:32 <elliott> the wsj guy reading this is totally gonna scoop us
04:57:41 <elliott> write all about the #Haskell Schism
04:58:02 <shachaf> haskell ain't no esolang!!
04:58:08 <kmc> ("fluff" isn't quite the right word because communities are important and all... I guess it's more about the fact that I'm far from an expert on running online communities and I don't want to make big public proclamations about how it should be done)
04:58:44 <shachaf> I try to make the point that people don't notice the cost of valuable people who leave the channel because they're so tired of it all.
04:58:55 <shachaf> You're an obvious example but there are surely others.
04:59:03 <kmc> i resisted having a blog at all for a while because i didn't want to be one of those Hacker News blogjerks who is constantly spouting an uninformed opinion about something or other
04:59:05 <elliott> there's me at various points (like I said)
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04:59:25 <elliott> i've taken #haskell off my autojoin for being annoying and noisy at various points
04:59:25 <kmc> so I try to stick to things that are some combination of a) objective fact, and b) fields where I am actually an expert
04:59:31 <elliott> or more commonly reinstalled and just not bothered to join it because it was no fun
04:59:48 <kmc> shachaf: thanks for saying i'm valuable :)
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05:00:13 <kmc> another one of my suggestions was just to make #haskell-in-depth be actually a thing, somehow
05:00:30 <elliott> it's called #haskell-lens and i'm not kidding
05:00:34 <kmc> in fact I stayed in #haskell-in-depth for a while after I left #haskell
05:00:35 <kmc> haha really?
05:00:44 <shachaf> Well, #haskell-lens is really #haskell-edwardk.
05:00:45 <kmc> #haskell-edwardk
05:00:55 <kmc> ok well maybe I will join some day!
05:01:01 <elliott> yeah but people talk about the scarce amounts of non-edwardk advanced stuff there is too sometimes!
05:01:05 <kmc> thanks for the recommendation
05:01:08 <shachaf> I like the time when we had a monad tutorial in #haskell-in-depth.
05:01:24 <shachaf> And a somethingorother tutorial in #-ops?
05:01:32 <kmc> is that like having sex in the living room because all your friends are having a party in your bedroom?
05:01:39 <shachaf> Someone got banned and went into #-ops to appeal it, and then just shifted the original discussion to there.
05:01:51 <kmc> now they have two problems
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05:05:46 <Bike> kmc: i had the same worry with my blog (except i'm not an expert in anything). i think i've done pretty well by being descriptive rather than normative, and also avoiding those "why x sucks" or "comparing x vs y" type posts
05:05:57 <kmc> 'but those get so many pageviews!'
05:06:12 <Bike> problem solved: nobody reads my blog anyway
05:06:16 <kmc> right another obvious trick is: don't care about pageviews and don't have ads so you don't have a financial incentive for pageviews
05:06:26 <kmc> i fail a bit at not caring about pageviews
05:06:36 <kmc> at least I find it interesting to see which posts are most popular
05:06:43 <Bike> well it's one thing to say "i don't write popularity", but it's still nice to see your stuff getting read
05:06:46 <elliott> imo kmc doesn't update his blog enough
05:06:48 <Bike> for popularity*
05:06:53 <kmc> that's right
05:07:03 <elliott> he hasn't updated for almost as long as arcane sentiment!
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05:07:40 <Bike> moderation rather than abstention, bla bla bla
05:07:53 <Bike> "hm i should write a post about buddhism and ascetism as relates to hacker news"
05:08:00 <kmc> oh wow kernel JIT spraying is #2 now
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05:08:15 <shachaf> i don't read Bike's weblog
05:08:22 <kmc> almost caught up to quasicrystals, which was far and away #1 because of its non-tech stoner appeal
05:08:33 <kmc> (ok not everyone who likes pretty pictures is a stoner but you know what i mean)
05:08:51 <Bike> what if you had pretty pictures of jit spraying. think of the pageviews
05:09:13 <Bike> alt. embrace the fact that "jit spraying" sounds pornographic
05:09:31 <elliott> kmc: i stared at the quasicrystal animation stoner-style, i admit
05:09:38 <kmc> elliott: did it stare back
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05:09:56 <mnoqy> quasicrystal animation????? is it pretty
05:10:15 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/10/quasicrystals-as-sums-of-waves-in-plane.html
05:10:23 <Bike> have you ever catalyzed a reaction...... i mean REALLY catalyzed a reaction
05:10:26 <mnoqy> ah yeah that's pretty pretty
05:10:35 <shachaf> hey kmc is coming to visit in, uh, 2 days?
05:10:41 <Bike> never seen 'em catal
05:10:49 <kmc> http://intothecontinuum.tumblr.com/ has a ton of great stuff
05:10:53 <kmc> if you like trippy gifs of math stuff
05:10:59 <Bike> ok wow yeah that's pretty stonery
05:10:59 <kmc> and/or mathematica
05:11:07 <kmc> Bike: yes there's a pot leaf about 30 pages in
05:11:15 <kmc> based on http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CannabisCurve.html
05:11:22 <Bike> i meant your post but yeah
05:11:36 <kmc> also there are periodic adverts for some kind of meditative practice
05:11:40 <kmc> on intothecontinuum i mean
05:11:43 <kmc> shachaf: yeah I am
05:12:02 <shachaf> i was going to make a "stoner?" joke but then it was sad :(
05:12:24 <Bike> on tumblr i get followed by a couple weirdo meditative hippie people
05:12:27 <Bike> i'm not really sure why
05:12:31 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/43b227c8b2b7b5e76e9a8269a1ce8d38/tumblr_mg4re6ASry1qfjvexo1_500.gif ok stop unzipping my brain plz
05:12:50 <mnoqy> is that a stoner phrase
05:13:08 <kmc> it's weird because i know some o fthese look v. familiar from my own renderings
05:13:19 <kmc> but i never published them
05:13:29 <kmc> it's like we both took the same photo of the platonic realm
05:13:37 <Bike> http://wetwareontologies.tumblr.com/ ?????
05:13:53 <shachaf> plato isn't even a planet anymore
05:14:01 <kmc> the 'unzipping' gif reminds me of salvia a bit
05:14:03 <kmc> shachaf: haha
05:14:17 <kmc> Bike: did you see http://screenshotsofdespair.tumblr.com/
05:14:26 <Bike> oh no this one http://memeengine.tumblr.com/
05:14:33 <Bike> "You know you’re tackling a difficult subject when you use a metaphor with Quantum Fields to clarify things." like whoa, man
05:14:51 <Bike> mnoqy: i'm not sure if it would be worse if it was just reddit gifs or something
05:14:55 <elliott> mnoqy: the prettier quasicrystal thing is when you stand back
05:15:07 <Bike> "The Plane of Immanence is Deleuze’s poetic term for underlying reality… likely it’s purposely vague about whether that reality is physical, material, or of some other sort. At any rate, it is objective. Concepts seem to be ways to view that reality, and these are subjective. For example, I could examine a tree using the concept: Tree, but I could equally well examine it using the concept: Cells, or the concept: Atoms. Or Energy, or
05:15:28 <elliott> Bike: Science... technology... literature... it's all philosophy when you dig deep enough isn't it?
05:15:33 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/2337eae56982599aff1fd457dea38e01/tumblr_mn4viaoIb01s2jikwo1_500.jpg sort of want a big poster of this
05:15:42 <shachaf> kmc: want a backpack with a matasano logo on it??
05:15:53 <kmc> are they going to give me one anyway?
05:15:54 <Bike> elliott: the great thing is, he has more readers than i ever will
05:16:15 <elliott> i fuckin read that as monsanto
05:16:20 <Bike> kmc: Do you know what painting that's from? I assume it's some martyrdom
05:16:27 <Bike> i did too elliott. we can be terrible together
05:16:39 <kmc> i don't know
05:16:46 <kmc> elliott: yeah me too often, and everyone else will forever
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05:17:37 <Bike> my favorite whatever dot tumblr dot com is probably windows95tips, i'm banal
05:18:19 <Bike> who reads text posts? nobody that's who
05:19:14 <kmc> http://drilbert.tumblr.com/
05:19:47 <Bike> shachaf: https://twitter.com/TumblrTXT
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05:25:16 <Bike> http://www.alanturing.net/turing_archive/graphics/ibsen.JPEG programming in the 50s sure did suck
05:26:43 <zzo38> Do you want to enter Z-Comp?
05:27:38 <zzo38> Bike: Is that some programming language? What is it? How does that form work?
05:28:43 <Bike> It's a programming language, it's a cellular automata program, and I have no idea.
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05:29:45 <zzo38> If anyone figure it out, will a clone be made of the system, implemented in C or something like that?
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05:30:16 <Bike> I think the computer was a Ferranti Mark I.
05:31:20 <DHeadshot> The design for which became the Ferranti after some modification.
05:31:55 <Bike> Loos like the characters are just encoding of pentets
05:32:07 <Bike> what an incredible fucking pain
05:32:11 <DHeadshot> Unless of course jumping to conclusions based on the word "Manchester" at the top is a bad idea...
05:32:45 <Bike> lol, when the thing came out a neurosurgeon was like "uh until it can write poetry it's not REALLY a brain"
05:33:09 <DHeadshot> Could of course be the Manchester Baby - the first computer to make music!
05:33:28 <Bike> well the program was written by turing, so it could probably be any of them really
05:33:40 <kmc> "Pray, Mr. Babbage" would be a good name for an esolang
05:33:45 <kmc> itt esolangs are like bands?
05:35:31 <zzo38> kmc: OK make some "Pray, Mr. Babbage" or put in list of ideas in the section about idea of names.
05:35:48 <shachaf> i,i "would be a good name for a language to write quines in when preceded by its quotation"
05:35:55 <kmc> ow my brain
05:36:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, OK, maybe it is.
05:36:28 <Bike> "[Turing] died while in the middle of this groundbreaking work, leaving a large pile of handwritten notes and some programs. This material is still not fully understood." so link it, jerks
05:37:10 <kmc> maybe it's a halting oracle O_O
05:37:35 <Bike> but no it's probably something about pinecone developmenet
05:37:45 <mnoqy> very groundbreaking
05:38:11 <mnoqy> you biologists have weird priorities
05:38:31 <Bike> dude pinecones are hard
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05:51:44 <zzo38> The theme of Z-Comp #1 is "siderotil"; but maybe this is no good... what are your idaes about it?
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06:01:43 <kmc> PERFORM UNTIL 0 = 1 DISPLAY "Penus " WITH NO ADVANCING END-PERFORM.
06:03:02 <zzo38> What does "WITH NO ADVANCING" mean?
06:03:18 <kmc> zzo38: no newline
06:03:41 <Bike> http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/pdthelp/v1r1/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.entcobol.doc_3.4%2Ftpbeg16b.htm it's cool how it might have a newline anyway
06:04:06 <zzo38> kmc: That was my guess.
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06:37:16 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 anyone want to run this on an actual mainframe :)
06:37:40 <shachaf> mainframe is usually a function
06:37:59 <Bike> it's just not the same if it's not handwritten on one of those cards
06:51:24 <shachaf> http://mashable.com/2013/05/23/hp-envy-touchsmart-14/
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07:13:59 <FireFly> shachaf: I read OotS and don't play D&D (not counting D&D-inspired games such as Neverwinter Nights... but I hardly knew what I was doing when I was playing that anyway)
07:18:25 <mnoqy> FireFly: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-98796.html
07:18:29 <zzo38> Since I make recordings of D&D games, well, it is almost related to your statement, I suppose.
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07:24:20 <zzo38> I want to make a total of the votes based on something between the sum of votes and the average of votes; what would be a good way?
07:31:37 <zzo38> This is a messages posted on Wiktionary: "Wikitionary has too many made up words. I am presuming to make word games easier to play."
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07:37:18 <elliott> cpressey: i can't sleep because i don't want to miss the interview. send help
07:40:29 <cpressey> elliott: is help in the form of juggalos ok? they don't have anything else to do while waiting for their test results so i could tell them to visit Hexham for a few days
07:41:23 <zzo38> What date/time is interview, precisely? I would need to know what it is, please!
07:44:17 <shachaf> FireFly: That was a quote.
07:44:22 <cpressey> zzo38: i'm thinking of proposing 4PM thursday. UTC-5 (EST). if he can't do that he's out fri-sun so the next slot would be the following monday
07:45:44 <cpressey> er, i guess i meant EDT, not EST
07:46:09 <shachaf> my plans involve not talking
07:46:19 <cpressey> shachaf: you are wise, but also boring.
07:46:23 <shachaf> what if this wsj person likes #esoteric so much that they decide to stay!!
07:46:29 <shachaf> then i'll never be able to talk in here again
07:46:44 <elliott> also, i will decline to ask about the juggalos
07:47:00 <shachaf> elliott: You haven't even been offered! It's rude to decline.
07:47:07 <shachaf> Been offered to ask, I mean.
07:47:08 <elliott> if i sleep today and then the day after!
07:47:25 <elliott> will i be able to sleep tomorrow with the excitement of the wall street journal hanging over me tho
07:47:43 <cpressey> i can propose tomorrow instead of thursday and just get this over with
07:47:50 <elliott> but of course it depends on zzo38 and others
07:47:53 <cpressey> also: http://www.jsvine.com/ <-- the person
07:48:01 <elliott> oh boy we're on a first domain name basis now
07:48:09 <cpressey> since he knows who we are it seems fairs
07:48:16 <elliott> oh, he's actually a programmer
07:48:24 <elliott> that makes it a bit less fun
07:49:05 <zzo38> cpressey: I will be available the following Monday, but probably not Thursday. Now just see what other people think, including yourself, of course.
07:49:12 <elliott> "A Chrome extension for declaring "tab bankruptcy" without losing all your links." this is uncomfortably resonant with me
07:49:34 <cpressey> i decline to speculate what he "actually" is, but he contacted me in the capacity of a reporter, saying "I'm a reporter", so that's how I'm treating him
07:50:01 <cpressey> zzo38: how is tomorrow (wednesday) for you?
07:50:37 <elliott> cpressey: by "actually" i meant as opposed to not a programmer
07:50:41 <elliott> not as opposed to not a journalist
07:50:54 <zzo38> cpressey: I might not be able, although it depends what time on Wednesday.
07:51:30 <zzo38> That time I don't think I will be here; I will probably be on a boat at that time.
07:52:34 <shachaf> Are you going to/from Victoria?
07:53:17 <elliott> i'm partial to tomorrow as opposed to thursday, fwiw
07:53:24 <elliott> no opinion on dates after that
07:54:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably.
07:54:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What's this boat thing? Tell us details.
07:55:12 <cpressey> ok, i'll propose 4PM thu and 4PM the following mon and let the chips fall where they may
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07:57:17 <cpressey> elliott: ok, then maybe let's just go with tomorrow
07:57:54 <cpressey> shachaf: probably the Friendship Boat hth
07:57:59 <elliott> like ripping off a plaster
07:58:09 <shachaf> cpressey: Since when do you say hth?
08:02:02 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, stop breathing, you'll catch the hth bug.
08:02:02 <fungot> fizzie: i shall help also.... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! come on, now!
08:02:47 <mnoqy> oh no....fungot is happy to help.............
08:02:47 <fungot> mnoqy: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! what's the big deal? so what if we won a war out there! can't it see i love my daddy! the children are going!
08:03:31 <fizzie> fungot: Also please don't mess up that interview thing it would be bad PR.
08:03:31 <fungot> fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
08:04:47 <fizzie> Cleaning up my desk here yesterday (moving offices), I found a flow-chart of fungot.
08:04:47 <fungot> fizzie: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
08:05:51 <elliott> fizzie: terrorised by people telling you about how speech recognition sucks too much?
08:06:54 <fizzie> I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than "I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than '...'".
08:07:30 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png <- flowchart
08:07:30 <fungot> fizzie: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
08:07:38 <shachaf> fizzie: Speech recognition is pretty great.
08:07:47 <shachaf> Don't listen to elliott, he's just trying to "get you down".
08:08:32 <shachaf> fizzie: Tell me about speech recognition: Does there *have* to be a short (noticeable) delay between saying something and it being recognized?
08:08:37 <shachaf> Every system I've seen has had that sort of delay.
08:08:56 <shachaf> What if you restrict the vocabulary significantly? Say, a few words, or a few dozen words.
08:09:31 <mnoqy> make a button for each word and just dang press the button
08:09:48 <mnoqy> hire a dog to press the button for you
08:10:25 <fizzie> I assume limited-vocabulary recognition could be made to happen pretty fast, if you wanted to pay attention to that.
08:11:46 <shachaf> fizzie: I was wondering about using it as part of the interface of a real-time-strategy sort of game.
08:11:50 <shachaf> Along with a touch screen.
08:18:42 <fizzie> Of course there's some inherent delay involved in the feature extraction, and figuring out if the utterance has actually ended (if the vocabulary is limited and unambiguous enough, that'd be easier), and of course the actual decoding (but computers are fast)... I suppose as a ballpark figure a hundred milliseconds or two sounds reasonable. (Don't quote me on that.)
08:19:13 <shachaf> 100ms is reasonable, I guess?
08:19:48 <shachaf> If you limit the vocabulary such that it's prefix-free etc. then maybe you don't need to worry about figuring out if the utterance has ended.
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08:26:38 <fizzie> I'm sure that, with sufficient cleverness, you could improve the response time of large-vocabulary continuous speech systems a lot too, it's just that people perhaps haven't really seen the need to. (And if you're too aggressive about it, you'd probably start getting sub-optimal results.)
08:26:59 <fizzie> Well, sub-optimaller. They're already quite sub-optimal.
08:27:20 <fizzie> (Or is that "subler-optimal"?)
08:31:25 <elliott> cpressey: so is it tomorrow?
08:32:34 <cpressey> elliott: that's what i'm just about to propose but dude is PROBABLY still asleep right now
08:33:14 <elliott> cpressey: dude's probably wide awake out of pure excitement
08:33:37 <lambdabot> Local time for cpressey is Tue May 28 09:34:03 2013
08:33:51 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Tue May 28 09:33:50
08:34:18 <Taneb> Hexham's 20 seconds behind GMT
08:35:19 <fungot> fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace?
08:35:24 <lambdabot> Local time for fungot is Whoa, man.
08:35:33 <fizzie> Aw, snap, it was "dude".
08:36:04 <fizzie> 20 seconds behind GMT, and timeless.
08:36:15 <shachaf> is there a gender-neutral version of "man"
08:36:33 <fizzie> Maybe we could agree on "oman" as a compromise.
08:39:56 <cpressey> ok, sent, just in case he's as excited as we are and it up at, er, 4:40AM on a tuesday
08:43:02 <cpressey> "As I mentioned, the most newsworthy event recently is that, apparently, we're newsworthy, even if it is only for a "gosh, aren't they quirky" piece. Sort of post-modern, isn't it? Heisennews."
08:43:45 <cpressey> being the most intelligent fragment of my missive
08:47:53 <cpressey> his career appears to have begun in 2008... combine that with an image search for good measure, and how old do you think he is?
08:48:46 <cpressey> since we're not hiring him, i think we're totally allowed to be rampantly ageist
08:49:15 <fizzie> Hello there, logreading WSJ guy.
08:49:21 <fizzie> (I'm sure that'll happen.)
08:51:38 <elliott> cpressey: i'm gonna go ahead and guess: OLDER THAN ME
08:51:56 <elliott> fizzie: yo can you op me just for the duration of this whole WSJ thing
09:00:32 <fizzie> That sounds kind of potentially disastrous, doesn't it?
09:02:23 <shachaf> ais523 should be the only op for the duration
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09:10:21 <cpressey> elliott: i'm gonna go ahead and guess: YOUNGER THAN ME
09:11:02 <elliott> cpressey: well, that establishes it. he's older than the youngest person possible and younger than the oldest person possible
09:11:38 <cpressey> i think technically oerjan may be the oldest person possible
09:11:57 <cpressey> shachaf: what part of "Befunge-93" do you not... wait, didn't you say you're, like, not into esolangs, or something?
09:12:17 <shachaf> I think technically I'm the oldest person possible, because the universe didn't exist before I was born.
09:12:38 <elliott> cpressey: are you sure you're not as old as oerjan?
09:12:46 <shachaf> Oh, you're *that* Chris Pressey.
09:12:46 <cpressey> wow, a non-moralist *and* a solipsist, that's very, very good
09:13:14 <cpressey> elliott: i think it came up once and he's like a year or two older than me
09:13:32 <elliott> cpressey: oh snap, valuable info's re: the secret of cpressey's age
09:13:38 <cpressey> i *think*. don't go on my word. th' dementia, y'know
09:13:50 <elliott> storing it in my #esoteric database. it's like boily's but less specific
09:15:10 <cpressey> elliott: also put in that Chris is short for Christine
09:15:28 <elliott> i doubt the factual accuracy of this statement, cpressey
09:15:38 <HackEgo> 263) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
09:16:08 <shachaf> `run quotes cpressey | shuf
09:16:10 <HackEgo> 123) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 136) <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kos
09:16:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I demand a wisdom entry about cpressey.
09:17:28 <cpressey> my quotes are kind of lame and i'm pretty sure i never said some of them
09:17:43 <elliott> especially the zomgmodules ones
09:17:44 <HackEgo> 136) <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
09:17:57 <cpressey> oh, the ZOMGMODULES ones might be better, naturally
09:17:57 <elliott> i just love modules that much
09:18:06 <elliott> cpressey: have you been to any more pycons
09:18:19 <shachaf> cpressey: you should move to san francisco btw
09:18:22 <elliott> i think they bring out the best in you
09:18:41 <shachaf> Does "heh" stand for "hope elliott helps"?
09:19:22 <cpressey> elliott: yeah, about that... so you know the guy sitting next to the guy in the donglegate photo... oh, i've already said too much
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09:21:02 <cpressey> ok shachaf, *why* do you think i should move to SF of all places
09:21:23 <HackEgo> 263) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. \ 264) <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. \ 314) <ZOMGMODULES> I can trust elliott_ to have an opinion on anything and everything <elliott_> Yes. <elliott_> And the best thi
09:21:48 <shachaf> cpressey: well, why wouldn't you
09:21:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:22:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
09:22:26 <fizzie> NEWS FLASH: First non-airport Starbucks in Finland is going to open, at a bookstore in Helsinki, later this year!
09:22:29 <fizzie> It's like we're getting a small taste of civilization also here in the PERIPHERIES.
09:22:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32352
09:23:47 <cpressey> coffee = civilization, no doubt about it
09:23:50 <elliott> cpressey: man, remember Falcon.
09:26:19 <cpressey> yeah, that was when the Great Language Explosion of the 2010's was just beginning
09:28:00 <cpressey> i remember not wanting to bootstrap it mainly
09:28:34 <cpressey> was ooc the first language with pink unicorns? i ask because these days THEY ALL HAVE PINK UNICORNS HAVE YOU NOTICED
09:28:48 <fizzie> "It was the summer of twenty-ten," like the song goes.
09:33:23 <elliott> cpressey: so this whole cornwall thing...
09:33:35 <elliott> I admit I have no idea how anyone could actually end up in cornwall
09:33:55 <cpressey> elliott: that's consistent with the fact that i have no idea how i ended up here
09:34:47 <elliott> were you sailing solo around the world and got lost
09:35:47 <shachaf> cpressey: have you considered ending up in san francisco instead
09:36:49 <cpressey> ... yes. i was trying to get to Hexham but was not sufficiently familiar with the region names in the BBS shipping forecast. which is totally my fault because they're listed off at the beginning of "The Good Ship Lifestyle" by Chumbawamba
09:37:29 <cpressey> shachaf: i do generally prefer to be *outside* of massive reality tunnels if i can help it, thanks
09:38:11 <shachaf> twist: you're inside a massive reality tunnel right now
09:38:19 <cpressey> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast_and_sea/shipping_forecast for your review
09:38:36 <cpressey> shachaf: not THAT massive. i mean jesus
09:39:12 <elliott> cpressey: ok so next question, why the hell were you trying to get to hexham
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09:39:36 <cpressey> elliott: i think we're all trying to answer that question in our own way, aren't we?
09:39:50 <elliott> i'm not even trying to get to hexham
09:39:57 <elliott> it's a very easy question to answer for me!
09:40:28 <shachaf> elliott is trying to get out of hexham
09:40:41 <shachaf> he wants to come to san francisco in order to obtain hugs
09:42:06 <elliott> i'll go to sf for kmc and nothing less
09:42:12 <elliott> cpressey: no I liked the idea that you still use BBSes.
09:42:15 <shachaf> kmc is coming to sf................tomorrow
09:42:17 <elliott> and that they offer shipping forecasts.
09:42:39 <cpressey> elliott: excellent point, i like that idea too
09:44:16 <Taneb> I've spent too much time on Tumblr. I'm just imagining people saying, "Johnlock looks to cxontinue strong, with very little Doctor/Clara"
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10:30:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hi you must be here tomorrow 9pm
10:30:55 <cpressey> assuming he gets back to me with "yes that'll work"
10:31:24 <shachaf> what time is that pacific time? help
10:32:16 <shachaf> so that's not in ~10 hours
10:32:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://jsvine.com/ may join the channel then
10:33:07 <cpressey> srsly you have exams that late? that's, like, after the watershed
10:35:44 <cpressey> modulo the fact that i always expect `relcome to do it in an Astro-from-the-Jestons voice
10:35:49 <shachaf> Can you confirm it's in ~32 hours?
10:36:12 <Jafet> `run sed -e 's/bow/words/' -i bin/relcome
10:36:23 <cpressey> shachaf: i will confirm as soon as he confirms
10:36:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: old like monoids
10:36:38 <shachaf> The time you're talking about! Is it in ~10 hours?
10:37:12 <fizzie> What was that all about, rainwords is totally sucky compared to rainbow, it's all ORDERLY and SUCH.
10:37:17 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:37:18 <cpressey> shachaf: no, it's ~24 more hours than that
10:37:30 <elliott> cpressey: there was literally never any question of not relcoming him
10:38:07 <cpressey> Relcome ru reh rinternational rub ror resoteric rogramming ranguage resign
10:38:08 <elliott> I bet he'll use a crappy client that doesn't do colours though
10:39:24 <fizzie> `run wehlcohme | rainbow # rehlcohme
10:39:27 <HackEgo> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
10:39:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: old enough to have far too many hanna-barbera memories stuck in the ol' bean
10:40:57 <HackEgo> bash: bork: command not found
10:41:25 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
10:41:59 <fizzie> `run env LC_ALL=fi_FI.UTF-8 apropos something
10:42:01 <HackEgo> apropos: opastepolkujen asetustiedostoa /etc/manpath.config ei voi avata
10:43:17 <Jafet> fungot text filter
10:43:17 <fungot> Jafet: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! whadd'ya mean she's gone!
10:43:48 <elliott> cpressey: were the 80s actually real (important question)
10:44:36 <shachaf> elliott: they were not "i guarantee it"
10:44:54 <Phantom_Hoover> can you imagine going straight from the 70s to the 90s?
10:44:59 <shachaf> `run env LC_ALL=he_IL.UTF-8 apropos something
10:45:01 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
10:45:20 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: uh the 70s didn't exist either
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10:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you're saying we went straight from the 60s to the 90s?
10:46:06 <Jafet> `run welcome | zalgo
10:46:08 <HackEgo> W͗͝e͊͆l̑̇c̘͡oͫ͡m̹͏e̐̀ ͒ͅt̹̊ō̴ ͍̬t̜̃h̜́e̙̓ ̰͆ị̊n̦ͬt͍̰e͈̚ṛ͝n͂̕a̸ͩt̶ͧi̲̝o͒҉nͨ͋a̲͂l͈͛ ͓̿ḧ̤ü̘b̟͋ ͭͅf͎͇o̿̿r̛͍ ̟̩e̷̟ṣ̈o̡̰t͖͌ê͕r̪͡i̶̱c͇̼ ̍͠p̲̈́r͕͑o̼҉g̖̈r̳ͦa̶̲m̞ͮm͈̜í̖ṇͫg̨̒ ́̽lͯ̀aͧ̏n̗̏g̼̲u̖͗a̜͆g̪͢e͔็ ̰ͅd͆̏e̱̔s̸
10:46:15 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: uh you're not quite getting the pattern here
10:46:20 <shachaf> let me give you a hint the 60s didn't exist either
10:46:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: shachaf = solipsist
10:46:33 <shachaf> typing without punctuation is so weird help i don't understand it
10:46:36 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: some of them
10:46:49 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm not a solipsist!
10:47:12 <cpressey> some kind of special-case time-line solipsism then
10:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i could see going straight to the 90s from pretty much anywhere
10:47:27 <elliott> it would make as much sense
10:48:05 <Jafet> The world was created ex nihilo next tuesday
10:48:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes but they didn't proceed to make any sense, did they
10:48:37 <cpressey> it goes like this: 1899, 1931, 1996, 1943, 2001, 1988, 1984, 1919, 1973, and so on
10:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> they're basically the logical continuation of the 80s except the cold war abruptly ended and everyone was kind of confused about what to do now
10:48:52 <FreeFull> If they didn't exist, I must be a lie
10:48:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and given that the 80s definitely don't make any sense, you need to explain the 80s for "you can only explain the 90s with the 80s"
10:49:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: now the question is, do the 70s explain the 80s? i contend: no.
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10:49:30 <elliott> we are forced to conclude that either the 80s or the 90s spontaneously came to exist without making sense or following regular chronology.
10:49:47 <elliott> it seems reasonable to entertain the possibility that we went straight from the 70s to the 90s
10:49:59 <elliott> as it is no less absurd than going straight from the 70s to the 80s
10:50:09 <shachaf> FreeFull: everyone in here was born in the 90s
10:50:15 <cpressey> i don't know what y'all find so inexplicable about the 80s
10:50:47 <Jafet> The dreaded "infinite digression"
10:50:49 <cpressey> rainbow suspenders? diff'rent strokes? thatcherism?
10:51:13 <elliott> cpressey: well... can you *explain* the 80s
10:51:43 <shachaf> not everything needs to be explainable
10:52:25 <shachaf> So when are you moving to SF?
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10:52:44 <Jafet> Do your memories exist
10:53:24 <Jafet> http://dresdencodak.com/2006/12/03/dungeons-and-discourse/
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10:54:10 <cpressey> i felt no urge read beyond the first row of panels, am i jaded?
10:54:54 <Jafet> No, I think I posted the wrong one
10:54:56 <Jafet> http://dresdencodak.com/2009/01/27/advanced-dungeons-and-discourse/
10:54:59 <cpressey> and tbh my though immediately after it loaded was "wtf harry potter with boobs"
10:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> that's pretty much the entire point of dresden codak these days
10:55:47 <elliott> i like how "these days" is being used in reference to a URL with "2006" in it
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11:00:22 <cpressey> "Hey guys! The next page is almost finished, but I’m moving to Portland, OR this week and won’t have access to my computer for the better part of two weeks. To tide you all over (and because you deserve it), here are the full pencils of the next page of Dark Science!"
11:02:02 <Deewiant> I like how the "next comic eta" tends to just increase by a month either a few days after or before that next month begins
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11:07:22 <cpressey> forget the 80's, i submit that the 2010's do not exist
11:08:20 <elliott> cpressey: they will cease to exist when the WSJ publishes an article about esolangs
11:08:27 <cpressey> so shachaf, what do you do there in the bay area reality bubble
11:09:25 <elliott> he works at y combinator startups
11:10:31 <shachaf> cpressey: a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer...
11:11:13 <cpressey> elliott: you're right, he works at y combinator startups
11:11:51 <cpressey> not everything needs to be explainable
11:13:35 <cpressey> (important editorial note: even though i use the word "y'all", i am not a southerner. i just don't like that "standard" english doesn't distinguish between second person singular and second person plural. also sometimes useful: "yonder")
11:14:02 <lambdabot> *** "yonder" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
11:14:02 <lambdabot> adv 1: at or in an indicated (usually distant) place (`yon' is
11:14:02 <lambdabot> archaic and dialectal); "the house yonder"; "scattered
11:14:02 <lambdabot> here and yon"- Calder Willingham [syn: {yonder}, {yon}]
11:14:40 <cpressey> less useful than y'all in chat, admittedly
11:14:53 <elliott> cpressey: have you tried saying "y'all" in cornwall yet
11:16:35 <quintopia> cpressey: when did you suddenly find time to waste in irc
11:17:14 <cpressey> quintopia: when the wsj guy wanted to interview me and i decided this was the only appropriate venue for that
11:17:24 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm glad you came.
11:17:33 <FreeFull> Polish has ty for second singular and wy for second plural
11:17:33 <shachaf> This place is much better with you around.
11:18:04 <quintopia> why would the wsj want to interview you
11:18:17 <quintopia> why would wsj readers be interested
11:19:46 <shachaf> You gotta grow the mushrooms in something.
11:21:32 <cpressey> quintopia: did you read http://catseye.tc/wsj.html -- he persisted though -- i gather he thinks it would make a great quirky "who'd a thunk it" human interest piece
11:23:30 <cpressey> shachaf: i will likely not be here as frequently/continually after this event has passed, just so you're aware
11:23:49 <cpressey> cuts into my furry fanart time
11:23:49 <shachaf> cpressey: Will you be anywhere else?
11:24:14 <shachaf> Other than Hexham/Finland/Cornwall/whatever.
11:24:34 <elliott> i'll get the wsj guy to convince cpressey to stay
11:25:17 <shachaf> cpressey: By the way, I initially came here due to an interest in esoteric languages.
11:25:23 <shachaf> I lost the interest after that.
11:25:33 <elliott> alternatively i'll go down to cornwall and spread the word about modules
11:25:43 <shachaf> I didn't really lose the interest.
11:27:59 <shachaf> cpressey: Your email was so good I sent the link to someone.
11:29:33 <Deewiant> Using the e-mail up to the "RATS" bit as the article itself would work well IMO
11:30:10 <shachaf> cpressey: You may ask but I probably won't answer. Sorry. :-(
11:30:21 <cpressey> quintopia: if he thinks it'll make a good human interest story, joke's on him, i'm far from convinced that any of us are human
11:31:04 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm definitely human.
11:31:25 <shachaf> My parents checked shortly after I was born.
11:31:44 <quintopia> zzo38 may be the most human. k think he should definitely be the one doing the interview
11:33:23 <cpressey> i did try to pass the torch to him, but he declined; and the timing might not work for him being here, not if it's going to be tomorrow anyway
11:37:38 <elliott> cpressey: i think the problem is more in the "interest" part of "human interest story"
11:38:33 <quintopia> elliott: the subject is definitely occasionally interesting to us nonhumans here in #esoteric
11:41:54 <cpressey> it's not UNinteresting to be informed that, oh yes, those languages that people use to program computers? well some folks make some really weird ones. of course, some folks make gigantic sculptures of tractors out of empty milk cartons, too.
11:42:57 <cpressey> if you're a programmer, otoh, and you actually have thought about programming, and know some words for programming concepts, then you can get to the interesting things - IF that's your interest.
11:44:15 <shachaf> cpressey: Can you fix my sleep, by the way?
11:44:23 <elliott> cpressey: so, now that you are retired you are going to donate your riches to promising young esolangers right
11:44:38 <shachaf> elliott: The lens fund isn't enough for you?
11:44:48 <cpressey> shachaf: probably not elliott: probably not
11:44:52 <shachaf> Are there any dependently-typed esolangs?
11:45:11 <elliott> cpressey: reconsider. on the latter account only
11:55:09 <shachaf> Are you talking to yourself?
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12:09:11 <elliott> boily: you have to ask the wsj guy The Question.
12:09:28 <shachaf> boily: What's The Question?
12:09:33 <boily> we have somebody from the wsj here?
12:10:05 <elliott> boily: well, we will. tentatively tomorrow at 9 pm UTC, or so I hear.
12:10:18 <boily> shachaf: the one I constantly nag you with, and to which elliott is the least coöperative.
12:10:22 <elliott> uh, wait, is it 8 or 10 pm BST
12:11:07 <boily> oh well. kernel upgrade.
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12:16:50 <boily> shachaf: by the way, I think now is a good time to ask you the The Question: what are your approximative geographic coördinates, and body weigh?
12:18:59 <shachaf> boily: What's with diæreses?
12:19:04 <shachaf> This is the WSJ, not the New Yorker.
12:19:18 <shachaf> hey cpressey can you get us a New Yorker interview
12:19:30 <fizzie> Can you get #esoteric on the cover of Time, please?
12:19:44 <boily> shachaf: I was informed that it's a longstanding tradition of this channel.
12:21:55 <shachaf> boily: Approximately: 0N 0W 0kg
12:22:16 <shachaf> But a few days I ago I mentioned my exact address in the channel.
12:22:43 <boily> `pastequotes shachaf
12:22:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32467
12:23:03 <boily> `pastelogs shachaf
12:23:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26557
12:23:45 <boily> `pastelogs 2013-05.*?shachaf
12:24:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15168
12:25:50 <boily> `bienvenue cpressey
12:25:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
12:26:06 <boily> hm. looks like my translation of `welcome disappeared...
12:26:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
12:27:59 <boily> shachaf: I'm as non-belgian than Koen_.
12:28:12 <shachaf> as non-belgian than Koen_?
12:28:29 <Koen_> boily's an american belgian
12:28:49 <boily> in fact, I'm one CD away from cpressey.
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12:43:30 <fizzie> http://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/2013/05/27/systemd-survey-results.html "Top concerns -- 4. I have a problem with systemd upstream and/or Lennart in particular"
12:45:09 <boily> fizzie: concern 2 is a good one, and one I didn't know about too.
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12:56:07 <cpressey> alls i know is, right now, 4PM in NY = 9PM in GB
12:56:25 <cpressey> well obviously not RIGHT right now. this time of year
12:59:11 <cpressey> it looks like there are little bits of greenland where it just jumps 2 timezones
13:01:59 <shachaf> Is there much recorded music whose copyright has expired?
13:09:05 <boily> mar mai 28 09:08:58 EDT 2013
13:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how iran decides to be halfway between two timezones
13:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (there was a point at which the uk was seriously considering permanently switching to UTC+1, but this was vetoed by scotland)
13:33:25 <elliott> or would it still have dst
13:43:45 <fizzie> I've generally used something that I think was timeanddate.com for across-time-zone scheduling.
13:45:39 <fizzie> The "abolish DST in Finland" petition is currently #7 (of the active ones) when ranked by signatures on the official Finnish "petitions to the gummint" page.
13:47:04 <fizzie> (16607 signatures; 50k are needed before the parliament is obligated to... "process" one; they've been collecting since Dec 3, 2012; it closes Jun 3, 2013; they're so not going to make it.)
13:47:10 <boily> there should be something like "Tee sanat helpompi ymmärtää."
13:47:39 <fizzie> That should presumably be more like "tee sanoista helpompia ymmärtää."
13:49:13 <cpressey> does finland even *have* daylight
13:50:01 <fizzie> "Let gays marry" is the only one with >50k (151644) votes. (Currently they have a thing called "registered partnership" that's missing some features of "real marriage" that I can't quite remember.
13:50:55 <fizzie> And the sun is shining and it's like 24 °C (75 °F for you funyuns) outside.
13:53:38 <fizzie> In the summer, we've got more daylight we know what to do with, you could even say.
13:53:54 <fizzie> (I understand some people find it hard to sleep here or something?)
13:54:46 <fizzie> "You need a certain type of curtain. Like WWII blackout curtains. I was in Helsinki for summer, the hotel did not have adequate curtains and I'm already a light sleeper. I did not have fun." --Internet.
13:56:21 <fizzie> Time to go shobbing. ->
13:57:24 <boily> fizzie: oh, sorry. please wait a few moments while I summon some deepsea creature... ♪
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13:57:46 <fizzie> Never mind, it's going to say 22 and prove I'm a big liar.
13:57:53 <metasepia> EFHK 281350Z 09014KT CAVOK 22/04 Q1016 NOSIG
13:57:54 <metasepia> EFHK 281350Z 09014KT CAVOK 22/04 Q1016 NOSIG
13:58:24 <fizzie> That's still quite hot!
13:58:31 <boily> fizzie: and about that plural thing, see, even gtranslate's confused!
13:58:35 <metasepia> CYUL 281300Z 14003KT 30SM FEW240 14/06 A3020 RMK CI1 SLP226
13:58:45 <boily> same here. 14 above zero! can you imagine!
13:58:53 <boily> (stupid canadian weather. *grmbl*)
13:59:32 <fizzie> We're going to do our South-of-France/Switzerland trip real soon now, and at the moment it seems to be colder there than here, which is rather unlikely.
13:59:54 <metasepia> LFMN 281330Z 17004KT 140V200 9999 FEW025 SCT056 BKN083 17/11 Q1008 NOSIG
14:03:57 <metasepia> For the song of the same name by Frankie Goes to Hollywood, see here.
14:06:21 <metasepia> KMRB 281353Z 07003KT 10SM FEW055 OVC100 14/12 A3017 RMK AO2 RAB31E45 SLP214 P0000 T01440122
14:10:29 <boily> I'm just missing your body weigh now :D
14:11:14 <boily> just an educated guess.
14:13:55 <quintopia> i would also like to know my body weight
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15:06:27 <HackEgo> jsvine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:06:53 <jsvine> Hi, and thanks for the welcome!
15:06:53 <cpressey> jsvine: I got your email, 4PM EDT tomorrow (basically, 24h from now) is confirmed.
15:07:23 <cpressey> oh wait, timezone: I meant 29 hr from now.
15:13:57 <Lumpio-> Welcome message has a . in the link, fail
15:28:06 <boily> molpysnakes. after ~728 pages, the thread is still going strong. I am vaguely disturbed.
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16:38:28 <HackEgo> jsvine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:48:22 <Koen_> I fear relcoming might be a relude to rickraining
16:52:56 <Taneb> cpressey, I hope we give rickrolling up. Those who still do it let society down. I'll run away and desert any friend who does it.
16:53:47 <cpressey> Taneb: according to wikipedia, "The meme has helped to revive Astley's career." how can that be a bad thing?
16:55:37 <zzo38> List of ideas gives ideas about logic of type systems, such as fuzzy logic, and "type correct unless type Y is also used", or making exceptions with logic. How would you do these things?
16:56:44 <cpressey> zzo38: shachaf asked earlier if there were any dependently typed esolangs, though
16:57:47 <cpressey> i don't think there are. it's a bit hard to implement, and, being an active research area, a bit hard to figure out good ways to fiddle with it
17:00:45 <zzo38> I think recursive triggers is a useful feature of SQL, isn't it?
17:01:11 <zzo38> What are your opinions of writing RPG computer games in SQL? SQL seems not a bad programming language for doing so.
17:04:14 <cpressey> hmm... are there any database engines that can do I/O in stored procedures? i've never thought about even trying that
17:05:27 <zzo38> Well, you could have external functions for doing I/O.
17:05:39 <zzo38> Or virtual table modules.
17:09:00 <cpressey> i'll be content with whatever method, as long as i can run an EXPLAIN PLAN that reports the optimal method for getting out of the dungeon alive.
17:10:46 <zzo38> I don't find stored procedures to be a useful feature of SQL (and SQLite doesn't use it anyways). The flow control of stored procedures doesn't seem necessary either; but one thing I have done is to make a virtual table module containing all 64-bit integers, and using this to make counted loops.
17:11:35 <boily> cpressey: that's easy. you grab the orb, teleport like crazy until you land right on top of a staircase, then get killed anyway by the ungodly amounts of major demons and demon lords and liches that spawned while you were teleporting.
17:12:24 <zzo38> I don't mean a roguelike game, though (although that may be possible too).
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17:16:28 <cpressey> zzo38: could it be a RPG with clowns? what would be some good clown stats?
17:16:43 <zzo38> SQLite has only FOR EACH ROW triggers and not FOR EACH STATEMENT triggers. I don't know why FOR EACH STATEMENT triggers would be useful anyways. SQLite also doesn't have updateable views; views are read-only unless there is a trigger to tell it what to do when it is written. I think using triggers like this is a more useful way, and I have created write-only views for this purpose.
17:17:26 <zzo38> cpressey: I suppose it could, although I don't know the stats; anyways, what stats are available and what to use also depend on the rules of the game.
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17:20:20 <zzo38> A feature that SQLite does not have (and I don't know if any other SQL engines have) is views that can be overridden with other views and then restored.
17:29:32 <zzo38> Some things, such as making triggers that create and drop triggers, can be faked using existing features, though.
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17:34:17 <zzo38> Do you know any Verilog programming?
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17:50:47 <cpressey> boily: i'm sure he'll remember the context for that
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17:52:28 <boily> cpressey: that's far from the worse @tell I did.
17:52:49 <boily> `pastelogs boily.*?@tell
17:53:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4006
17:54:15 <boily> I have fond memories of «2012-12-21.txt:19:40:46: <boily> @tell taneb bananas, mangos, kiwifruit, korean, nostradamus.».
17:54:58 <cpressey> yeah i was just going to say, that's kind of a fascinating link, right there.
17:55:34 <boily> tho I'm ashamed to say that I have no clue in fungot what I was reminding him about.
17:55:34 <fungot> boily: must think of a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
17:55:43 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
17:56:43 <cpressey> fizzie: that fungot flowchart that you found, is it worth scanning in? maybe HackEgo could produce a link to it, as its knowledge of fungot.
17:56:43 <fungot> cpressey: o the input/ output functions. by setting this bit to 1
17:57:14 <cpressey> fungot: don't keep me in suspense!
17:57:14 <fungot> cpressey: it is important to affect the printing of shifted characters.
17:57:44 <boily> et voilà. the Truth was Unfold, and the Printing was Shifted in Character.
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17:59:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcom: not found
18:00:01 <HackEgo> surma: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:09:18 <fizzie> cpressey: It's printed out from a GraphViz-generated image, scanning it in would be kind of a "wooden table" thing to do.
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18:13:21 <cpressey> bah, and here i had a romantic notion of a hurriedly-scrawled diagram in pencil with lots of things crossed out
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18:15:51 <fizzie> cpressey: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png or without the "small" if you don't mind a 7485x15016 image.
18:15:52 <fungot> fizzie: gosub200 sprite shape, which normally determines which of these routines can be displayed in another graphics mode is to check the truth of both operands are compared by first pokeing petascii characters, with each function call.
18:16:36 <fizzie> It's not even a high-level graph, it's just an alternative representation of the source code, automatically generated.
18:17:14 <fizzie> (With some heuristics for the static analysis of jump tables and such.)
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18:23:26 <boily> RFC 2132 has some unexpected options. you can specify default IRC servers in a DHCP packet!
18:26:17 <fizzie> s/.*// #there goes everything
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18:29:11 <boily> fizzie: that way is not feng shui. you have to go with the flow of /s and \s.
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18:32:02 <ion> If you’re escaping slashes in your regexp, you’re using the wrong quote character.
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18:44:05 <Taneb> I now have Amnesia: The Dark Descent installed
18:44:36 <Taneb> No, I'm just crap at the whole horror genre
18:45:16 <fizzie> Hey, I'm sure you people know these things: when there's a bird that (according to the spec sheet^W^W^WWikipedia) lays "three to five eggs", do they all plop out almost at once, or is there a gap? (Our kitchen window nest now has an egg, but only one.)
18:46:08 <fizzie> boily: Why is there just one then? Is there something WORNG?
18:46:48 <FreeFull> fizzie: The bird explodes, only 3 to 5 eggs remaining, and then the bird reforms mid-air
18:47:10 <fizzie> FreeFull: That sounds more like an angry bird or something.
18:57:27 <ion> taneb: It’s an awesome game.
18:57:43 <Taneb> ion, but I'm crap at horror stuff!
19:00:35 <boily> Taneb: you should try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_(video_game). it is relaxing.
19:04:44 <fizzie> Okay, yes, that seems pretty crap.
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19:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you just have to make sure you play it the correct way
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19:34:36 <cpressey> fizzie: romantic notions of scrawlings notwithstanding, that is one pretty diagram.
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19:37:22 <cpressey> but fungot, are you sure you're cool with there being nude portraits of yourself online?
19:37:22 <fungot> cpressey: for machine language
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19:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i was tumblrstalking you and i came across worrying evidence
19:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> also have i ordered you to watch farscape because you totally should
19:51:47 <Bike> are you a comic book character
19:54:31 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I find your use of bold disturbing.
19:54:47 <boily> underline like a man!
19:57:24 <boily> «Ctrl-C U» in weechat. there is B for bold, and C for colours, and some other letters which I don't know the use of.
19:58:28 <Bike> reverse video is heroic
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20:02:42 <boily> Bike: I think this is for reverse.
20:02:48 <oerjan> <cpressey> how can any value ever be less than an epsilon AHHHHH BRAIN BREAKING <-- half an epsilon hth
20:04:34 <oerjan> <cpressey> "A chat on #esoteric works for me." <-- i have a bad feeling about this.
20:04:54 <oerjan> unless you already finished it, that would be good hth
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20:07:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, why are you tumblr-stalking me
20:07:06 <Taneb> My tumblr is like really boring
20:07:26 <Taneb> imo Tumblr-stack Phantom_Hoover
20:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> probably in an attempt to gain further insights into the person i allow to make death threats in my name over the internet
20:08:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i hear Taneb has a really boring tumblr i suggest you fake a more interesting one hth
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20:09:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he's an evil overlord in training what more do you need to know hth
20:10:23 <Taneb> I'll have you know, that I can be very evil when I choose to be
20:10:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see how cheeriness contradicts evil hth
20:11:16 <Taneb> For example, I am slowly undermining the credibility of someone I met on IRC by creating a Tumblr account that caricatures him while providing no suggestion that it isn't his
20:11:31 <Taneb> For no real reason other than that I felt like it one day
20:11:34 <Bike> http://www.jsvine.com/ this is probably the journalist
20:12:03 <oerjan> we are pearls before svine
20:12:07 <olsner> cheerful evil is possibly the worst/best kind of evil
20:12:25 <Taneb> How's that for evil, Phantom_Hoover
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20:13:43 <oerjan> this is one person who probably heard of us through the grapevine. in song.
20:14:25 <jsvine> Oh, hey, yep, that's me.
20:14:54 <boily> I think I have a dusty tumblr somewhere too...
20:15:12 <oerjan> shall i just ban him preemptively
20:15:52 <Taneb> jsvine, as you can tell, we are a community who, although primarily linked by esoteric programming languages, share a wide variety of interests
20:16:03 <Taneb> Including rampant silliness
20:16:13 <jsvine> Seems so. I'd expect nothing less.
20:16:21 <Bike> jsvine: oops, didn't see you in /names, sorry.
20:16:44 <jsvine> ("pearls before svine" is amazing; I've spent most my life around punners, and never heard that one before.)
20:17:37 <oerjan> you'll get nowhere with your flattery
20:19:17 <olsner> I will starve before my food is done :(
20:19:50 <oerjan> olsner: is this some kind of cheese that needs to mature for 3 months?
20:20:15 <olsner> oerjan: no, but it needs to be baked in the oven
20:20:48 <Taneb> jsvine, can I ask why you chose to interview this pretty obscure sub-sub-subculture?
20:21:25 <Taneb> Why did you choose to interview this pretty obscure sub-sub-subculture?
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20:21:49 <oerjan> this is where Taneb surreptitiously (is this the right word?) interviews jsvine and puts it on Phantom_Hoover's tumblr
20:22:18 <Bike> we already did a "who reports the reporter" joke oerjan
20:22:18 <jsvine> - esolangs and esolangers seem to have a sense of humor largely absent from commercial/practical programming/langauges
20:22:32 <olsner> oerjan: surely something bad happens if you try to interview a journalist, like putting google into google
20:22:36 <oerjan> Bike: darn i'm late on today am i not
20:23:00 <jsvine> - I like puzzles, and esolangs seem like a fun kind of puzzle
20:23:00 <Bike> i've read some cool interviews with jouranlists
20:23:20 <Bike> not the kind who interviews some dorks on irc, though, unless those dorks are on interpol wanted lists
20:23:47 <oerjan> are you telling me we are not on interpol wanted lists
20:24:40 <jsvine> - I think the idea that you can program via pictures (i.e., in Piet) might surprise/delight readers
20:24:49 <oerjan> now that was a boring result, i think google could at least have sneaked in a link to recursion
20:25:09 <jsvine> - I think readers will also be curious why people choose to spend time writing/using "useless" languages
20:25:14 <boily> oerjan: well, there's always my coördinate list. do you want to be on it?
20:25:21 <oerjan> did you know the piet article was just deleted from wikipedia :(
20:25:37 <boily> oerjan: oh. sorry. you're already there, although I'm missing your body weigh.
20:26:14 <Bike> destiny and needing a bit of fluff to write about
20:26:18 <Bike> though those are some pretty good reasons
20:26:20 <oerjan> boily: i thought i said i was 82 kg or thereabouts, although i think i've put on a bit again since then
20:26:34 <Bike> oerjan: you can always google "recursion"
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20:27:05 <jsvine> oerjan, do you have a link to the deletion discussion on wikipedia?
20:27:08 <Bike> jsvine: just so you know, there are professionals doing similarly weird things. http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 is my favorite example
20:27:08 <oerjan> Bike: ah yes, they still do that one
20:28:02 <boily> oerjan: must have missed it last time. thanks for the update!
20:28:16 <Taneb> jsvine, hehe, Piet was got me into esoteric programming
20:28:25 <Bike> oerjan: i like "do a barrel roll" more than i should
20:28:31 <jsvine> PSA: if anyone wants to email me privately, I'm at jsvine@gmail.com; PGP key on jsvine.com
20:28:35 <boily> is it professional to ask him/her/it the The Question?
20:28:35 <oerjan> jsvine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Piet_(programming_language)
20:28:44 <jsvine> oerjan: awesome, thanks
20:28:46 <Taneb> I once wrote a really broken IRC bot in Piet, but I've lost the source
20:29:13 <Taneb> boily, it's clear from his website that the answer to the Question would be "no"
20:29:22 <jsvine> Taneb: ha, amazing — that sounds like an insanely complex Piet program, no?
20:29:45 <jsvine> ok, ok, what's The Question?
20:30:00 <Taneb> "Do you live in Hexham?"
20:30:10 <Bike> how do you get fungot's source again
20:30:11 <fungot> Bike: it is left out, the logical and function. peek is a simple software routine. ( see the entry for the filter and the chart ( figure 3-1) will contain all the words and operators for the convenience of the device number
20:30:11 <boily> Taneb: eh, no. but I think that Version will do.
20:30:17 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> piet programs tend to be weird spindly webs of static rather than boxy mondrian pictures
20:30:30 <Bike> jsvine: this bot's written in befunge as you can see there
20:31:04 <Taneb> Yeah, Pietbot was one of the ugliest Piet programs going
20:31:08 <Taneb> I sort of gave up on it
20:31:13 <boily> so, jsvine, I'll have to ask you the The Lite Version of The Question: do you live in hexham?
20:31:45 <jsvine> brb, gotta google the answer
20:32:44 <Taneb> (Hexham's a small town in the north-east of England. Not really significant to anything to do with programming except for a weird coincidence in this channel)
20:33:31 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
20:34:22 <jsvine> I'm clearly out of my depth here.
20:35:17 <boily> jsvine: `? searches in the collective wisdom db. it has some... interesting definitions in it.
20:35:26 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
20:35:51 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
20:36:13 <Taneb> `learn Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places.
20:36:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
20:36:24 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
20:36:52 <HackEgo> Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
20:37:11 <Taneb> ...I've got a feeling I wrote that, and "NORTHUMBRAINS" was a typo
20:37:30 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice.
20:37:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: banach-tarski: not found
20:37:51 <oerjan> `run echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | colorize > wisdom/piet
20:37:52 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
20:37:55 <HackEgo> bash: colorize: command not found
20:38:11 <oerjan> oh right they renamed it because of the spelling war
20:38:54 <HackEgo> bin/rainbow \ bin/rainwords
20:39:01 <oerjan> `run echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | rainwords > wisdom/piet
20:39:18 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
20:39:18 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
20:40:29 <Taneb> jsvine, perhaps the reason why esolangs seem to have a sense of humour absent from other languages is that silly languages tend to be classified as esoteric
20:40:47 <jsvine> I like that explanation
20:40:59 <Taneb> However, serious languages are not without their silliness, for example Python's import antigravity
20:41:00 <jsvine> Are there any silly languages not classified as esoteric?
20:41:24 <Taneb> jsvine, none spring to mind
20:41:31 <oerjan> php *runs away* *notices no one following*
20:41:57 <boily> jsvine: forth has that speical nostalgic and weird feeling to it.
20:42:00 <myname> do you guys consider J an esoteric or a serious language?
20:42:18 <Bike> it's esoteric in that it's weird, it's serious in that it is seriously intended and used
20:42:18 <jsvine> (And who named these things "esoteric" in the first place?)
20:42:23 <boily> definitely sesotericious.
20:42:44 <cpressey> jsvine: i had a webpage once titled "Esoteric Topics in Computer Programming"
20:43:12 <jsvine> cpressey: and the rest is history?
20:43:31 <jsvine> Were there other competing names at the time?
20:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages is quite informative
20:43:42 <oerjan> the rest would have been history if the webpages hadn't disappeared off the web.
20:43:50 <cpressey> well, i ran a listserv which also went under that name, I think, and, yes.
20:43:52 <jsvine> Phantom_Hoover: awesome, thanks
20:44:24 <Bike> oh, that article inspired me to look up knowlton back when i was in school
20:44:33 <Bike> i read his paper on l6 and found out that nowadays he makes paintings out of shells
20:44:51 <cpressey> The word "esoteric" was used only in the sense of "obscure because only a handful of people have the right combination of patience and interest to care enough to know it"
20:44:56 <Taneb> And reasons non-esoteric programmers seem to be less silly include: a) some of the silly ones end up here and b) most programmers are doing it for a living rather than fun
20:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> there's kind of a dark age between the 70s when intercal was invented and 1993 when the three prototypical modern esolangs were made
20:45:07 <Bike> http://www.kenknowlton.com/
20:45:12 <cpressey> which, I think, is how the word "esoteric" is usually used in the context of computers
20:45:28 <jsvine> What would someone have called, say, INTERCAL, before it was called "esoteric"?
20:45:44 <Bike> well, intercal's a parody
20:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> they just called it intercal, there was no need for a categorical name
20:45:53 <Bike> so they might just say that
20:46:14 <Bike> "it's that parody of cobol or something, right"
20:46:18 <Bike> "fuckin nerds"
20:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> and yeah, it was primarily a joke riffing on existing language designs
20:47:01 <jsvine> interesting — "dada" suggests an comparison to art... which, seems intentional, no?
20:47:27 <jsvine> "fuckin nerds" works, too
20:47:29 <Bike> esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s
20:47:47 <cpressey> jsvine: i consider programs and programming languages to be artist media, but that might just be me.
20:47:49 <Bike> wait, wrong surrealism
20:48:13 <jsvine> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think happened between the 70s and '93?
20:48:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s
20:48:21 <HackEgo> 1041) <Bike> esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s
20:48:22 <cpressey> whether this is "art" or not is a HUGE can of worms that we don't reeeeallly need to open up, not now
20:48:54 <Bike> comparing esolangs with tendencies towards automatic production in art could be kind of interesting, especially if you bring in self-proclaimed artists like knowlton
20:49:02 <Taneb> I'd say some, but not all esolangs are art
20:49:14 <Phantom_Hoover> jsvine, well there were other jokes along the lines of intercal, but afaik none of them were fleshed out into actual languages
20:49:17 <Bike> especially if you bring in that one guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Belousov-Zhabotinsky_Reaction.gif
20:49:38 <jsvine> Are there any esolangs in art museum collections? (Not that they're the ultimate arbiter of art.) MoMA put the "@" symbol in their collection a couple of years ago.
20:49:48 <cpressey> Taneb: I'd also say some non-esolangs are art (that is, (non-eso)langs)
20:50:13 <Taneb> jsvine, I do not believe so, however I am not sure
20:50:18 <oerjan> elliott: the MoMA people are going to be _so_ confused when you do that search-and-replace
20:50:27 <cpressey> jsvine: not that I'm aware of. and I kind of looked, sort of. I know MoMA has video games, too (in design, if not art)
20:50:31 <oerjan> *global search-and-replace
20:51:09 <olsner> Bike: hmm, "Made using self-written Java program." (I would like it if that meant that the java program wrote itself)
20:51:35 <jsvine> Seems like Piet (for its visual-ness) or Brainfuck (for its historic aspects) would be a good fit for a museum. Any other candidates?
20:51:43 <Bike> adamatzky, that's it
20:51:51 <Taneb> Befunge, maybe Glass?
20:52:05 <Bike> jsvine: a 2d language could be manipulated by viewers, would be a fun interactive exhibit
20:52:16 <Taneb> Yeah, definitely Eodermdrome
20:52:38 <jsvine> That's the first I've heard of Eodermdrome. Taking a look.
20:52:54 <oerjan> <elliott> also, I get the feeling the journalist is probably reading the logs right now. <-- now that's just paranoia hth
20:53:07 <Phantom_Hoover> the eodermdrome article is, er, not very clear about how it works
20:53:37 <Taneb> The thing about Eodermdrome, is that it is NP-complete to interpret
20:53:48 <Taneb> As far as I am aware, nobody has managed it
20:53:58 <oerjan> Taneb: technically not, because of the 26 letter limit
20:54:16 <Taneb> oerjan, oh, really?
20:54:23 <olsner> Taneb: wasn't that the interpreter that someone finnished?
20:54:32 <oerjan> it's not NP-complete to check for a finite set of subgraphs
20:54:50 <Bike> maybe we should just have an eodermdrome self-interpreter without a real interpreter.
20:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> The thing about Eodermdrome, is that it is NP-complete to interpret
20:55:00 <oerjan> or well, it's P, etc. etc.
20:55:07 <Taneb> Well, I learn something every day
20:55:23 <Phantom_Hoover> but doing it in polynomial time is boring and complicated
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20:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> maybe we should just have an eodermdrome self-interpreter without a real interpreter.
20:56:21 <boily> oerjan: only the lines in hth. if you take the prime letters of each line, they'll reveal a very sombre and shocking secret. hth
20:56:31 <oerjan> Bike: i am not convinced an eodermdrome self-interpreter would fit in the 26 letter limit. it was hard enough to fit BCT.
20:56:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, we've been over this, the spec doesn't say 'ascii' anywhere
20:56:59 <Bike> eh, extend it to other alphabets then
20:57:17 <Taneb> It is pretty simple to make an Eodermdrone-like language with unbounded nodes
20:57:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: fine, fine, you can decide it allows unicode after you make a working interpreter of it
20:57:34 <Taneb> Well, linear bounded
20:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah you'd basically have to have a case for every single unicode character
20:58:05 <boily> someday, we'll even have a feather interpreter!
20:58:23 <Bike> wait why do you need a case
20:58:43 <Bike> ugh don't make me think about actually writing an interpreter for that fucking thing again
20:59:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the initial graph is definitely the english alphabet fwiw
20:59:17 <Taneb> boily, some day, feather may have always existed
20:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, eodermdrome input works as a case analysis thing
21:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> you write (<string>) before a command and it'll only trigger if <string> is at the start of the input buffer
21:00:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also if you do an infinite alphabet it becomes NP-complete again hth
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21:00:52 <metasepia> CYUL 282000Z 16013KT 30SM BKN180 OVC240 22/01 A3011 RMK AS6CI2 SLP197 DENSITY ALT 700FT
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21:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> any given program will only have a finite number of match subgraphs
21:02:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well a given program won't be NP-complete, although performing a step in an arbitrary program will be
21:02:16 <cpressey> jsvine: as you can see from the above, if esolangs are art, it kind of raises the bar for "art appreciation"... but even if you don't know anything about complexity theory, you can still look at a program and enjoy it just on a visual level. as a pretty abstract. especially if you like looking at ASCII.
21:03:30 <jsvine> cpressey: I like that. There are definitely some pleasing, and distinguishable, visual aspects to most the esolangs I've seen.
21:04:26 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> jsvine, that's an observation extensible to real languages, fwiw; cf. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Wadlers_Law
21:06:17 <HackEgo> 152) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
21:06:38 <HackEgo> 155) <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
21:07:26 <jsvine> fascinating — as a newcomer, the easiest thing to grasp onto is the syntax
21:07:45 <jsvine> how do you identify that 3%?
21:08:04 <ais523> I guess a quick way to see if an esolang idea is really just syntax-deep, is to see how easy it is to translate into other languages
21:08:09 <oerjan> first, we kill all the brainfuck derivatives...
21:08:10 <ais523> something like Ook! looks quite different from BF
21:08:20 <ais523> but you can translate between them pretty trivially
21:08:28 <boily> ais523: yes, but Ook is Ook.
21:08:29 <jsvine> I like that rule of thumb
21:08:35 <ais523> meanwhile, if you're translating between, say, Underload and Brainfuck, it's a lot more difficult
21:08:51 <ais523> possible, due to Turing-completeness, but the program typically gets a lot longer in the translation
21:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> and eodermdrome is extremely hard to translate into other languages, hence the lack of an interpreter
21:09:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that explains the lack of a compiler, rather than the lack of an interpreter
21:09:49 <ais523> some languages, like befunge-93, are quite easy to interpret
21:09:52 <ais523> but nontheless hard to compile
21:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, i'd say for a sufficiently broad definition of 'translation' it applies to interpreters too
21:10:34 <Taneb> Take, for example, a language I created, Fueue, which was proved Turing-complete by a non-trivial way of translating Underload to Fueue
21:10:43 <ais523> now I want to design a language which is very hard to write a self-interpreter for
21:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> interpretation involves implementing concepts in one language in terms of another, after all
21:10:55 <ais523> without being otherwise particularly difficult
21:11:21 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fueue#Computational_class
21:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> because the trickiest part in making a self-interpreter for it is dealing with the syntax/io mechanics
21:12:38 <Taneb> FreeFull, we're being interviews by jsvine
21:13:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the immediate reason is easy enough to explain, cpressey refused to let him interview him except in #esoteric
21:13:28 <FreeFull> I hope this interview will be heavily edited to cut out all the noise.
21:13:33 <jsvine> More of a conversation right now than an interview.
21:14:00 <boily> FreeFull: what? I can't hear you, I have an interview in my ear.
21:14:15 <jsvine> Where's the whisper button on this thing?
21:14:51 <ais523> jsvine: to private message someone, do /query and their username
21:14:57 <ais523> that'll open up a separate tag to PM them with
21:15:09 <jsvine> Oh, was just joking, unsuccessfully.
21:15:23 <ais523> I'm used to people muddling up IRC with instant messaging
21:15:29 <ais523> so I just mentally translated the terms
21:15:43 <jsvine> But anyone here should feel free to PM me if you want to chat privately.
21:18:12 <jsvine> Is anyone currently working on a new esolang? Doesn't necessarily have to be earth-shattering. I'm mostly just curious about the process.
21:18:44 <ais523> it's kind-of quiet at the moment, the good ones can take years to work through
21:18:56 <ais523> and after you've spent years working on one, you kind-of don't want to have anything to do with it any more
21:19:06 <ais523> really, though, the big problem is having an idea
21:19:22 <ais523> once you have one, working out the details can normally be done in a few hours, unless the idea is one that makes the details difficult
21:19:25 <jsvine> ais532: I know that feeling, on a shorter time-scale, with stories.
21:19:56 <ais523> some of my aborted projects had ideas like "regular expressions except Turing-complete", and "object oriented language that uses time travel in order to do inheritance"
21:20:28 <jsvine> ais523: Whoa. Abandoned why?
21:20:37 <ais523> the first one, I couldn't even get the parser to work
21:20:50 <ais523> admittedly, it meant I was being held up on syntax problems, so I could theoretically work around that
21:20:51 <oerjan> <Sgeo> (Note for innocent victims: Do not check OOTS because of that `olist) <-- HEY YOU KNOW I NEVER READ MORE THAN ONE LINE AHEAD
21:20:54 <ais523> the second one, I don't like to tlak about
21:21:11 <oerjan> i guess technically that would be zero in this case.
21:21:17 <ais523> but the basic problem is that it's very hard to write a language entirely in terms of itself
21:21:29 <ais523> oerjan: for bonus points, I checked OOTS a few minutes ago, for reasons completely unrelated to the `olist
21:21:33 <ais523> basically I just check it manually now and again
21:21:37 <FreeFull> ais523: Regular expressions except turing-complete sounds like perl
21:21:49 <nooodl_> feather is kind of like an "inside joke" except i'm not sure how much of a "joke" it is
21:21:54 <metasepia> The Order of the Stick is a comedic fantasy webcomic that satirizes pencil and paper role-playing games (particularly Dungeons & Dragons and its accompanying system, d20) through the continuing tale of the titular party of adventurers.
21:21:57 <oerjan> i only check it about once a week if there's no `olist
21:21:58 <ais523> FreeFull: I'm not convinced Perl's a Turing-complete, except via using the "embed arbitrary Perl here" directives
21:22:28 <ais523> nooodl_: I felt it was safer to let it become an inside joke, it reduces the odds I'll stupidly try to start working on it again
21:22:29 <Bike> regular expressions except turing complete sounds like thue
21:22:32 <boily> s/arbitrary/mixed code and regexpes/
21:22:43 <FreeFull> It's easy to think up an idea for an esoteric programming language, it's a bit harder to execute well on it.
21:22:49 <ais523> cyclexa had notation like (abc)^, which /added/ abc to the start of the input
21:22:50 <olsner> Bike: but thue is string rewriting, not regexps
21:22:55 <ais523> and thus was equivalent to c^b^a^
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21:23:18 <ais523> I think you're both right
21:23:21 <Bike> ais523 is one of the more creative here, which means he gets stuck on weird shit that hardly makes sense
21:23:23 <ais523> ideas are easy, interesting ideas are hard
21:23:56 <ais523> there are a few patterns I like that haven't been done to death nearly as much as BF derivatives, though
21:23:56 <olsner> Bike: thue with regexps is pretty much sed
21:24:02 <Taneb> I on the other hand find it easy to make up a half-baked idea and write a spec and publish it
21:24:10 <Bike> and sed's popular! see, victory
21:24:16 <ais523> such as the "introduce an arbitrary operation with no obvious properties, then force people to do everything in terms of it" paradigm
21:24:18 <Taneb> Which means that few of the languages I have created are much good
21:24:21 <oerjan> <ais523> FreeFull: I'm not convinced Perl's a Turing-complete, except via using the "embed arbitrary Perl here" directives <-- um you can do linked lists in perl, no?
21:24:29 <ais523> oerjan: Perl's regexes
21:24:33 <ais523> there was some elision in that line
21:24:42 <FreeFull> I had an idea of a programming language where a syntax error would introduce new syntax based on seemingly random, but actually predictable rules
21:24:46 <oerjan> i got the elision in the wrong place
21:24:55 <FreeFull> But I have no idea what good execution of that idea would be
21:25:05 <ais523> oerjan: the typo didn't help
21:25:17 <ais523> FreeFull: that's the opposite idea of one I had recently
21:25:18 <Taneb> Fueue and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download (which, by the way, is the longest name for an esolang, to my knowledge) are pretty much my only two decent languages
21:25:24 <ais523> a language where the syntax changes every time you run the interpreter
21:25:29 <ais523> and as a result, programs have a half-life
21:25:33 <boily> FreeFull: what about, for example, the grammar expecting a =, but you dropped it and the next token is an (. so, from now on, it uses ( for assignements.
21:25:34 <ais523> however, programs can also be self-modifying
21:25:46 <FreeFull> boily: Too simple and inflexible
21:25:51 <Taneb> And Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is almost entirely unoriginal
21:25:52 <ais523> so all long-lasting programs need to come with an AI that attemps to work out what's happened to the language, and change themselves to match
21:26:01 <FreeFull> boily: And the beginning state wouldn't have an idea of assigment
21:26:11 <boily> FreeFull: indeed. how to improve, then?
21:26:26 <Bike> ais523: sounds like DIT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory)
21:26:34 <FreeFull> An interesting thing would be to be able to produce a header, that you can prefix any brainfuck program with to make it execute using this language
21:27:03 <boily> wasn't there some discussion a bit while ago about embedding multiple languages together, or something like that?
21:27:09 <olsner> hmm, is that interesting or just a brainfuck interpreter?
21:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you know, i always thought the hair salon was owned by Real Fast Nora
21:27:25 <boily> olsner: it's not a brainfuck interpreter, it just looks like one.
21:27:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no, it's Real Fast (Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster) Download
21:27:47 <ais523> olsner: it is interesting if it can be done in general
21:27:53 <ais523> things like the underlambda preprocessor are interesting, for instance
21:28:09 <Taneb> jsvine, I named the language after a page a spambot created on the wiki
21:28:32 <Taneb> olsner, elaborate?
21:29:03 <olsner> the obviously correct parse is (Real Fast Nora)'s
21:29:29 <boily> time to sadly depart from this illustrious channel. adieu!
21:29:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: J'ai faim.).
21:29:42 <Bike> the horse raced past the barn fell: a descriptivist retrospective
21:29:43 <ais523> but yeah, thinking of a name is often difficult
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21:29:48 <ais523> so sometimes we borrow them fro mspambots
21:29:49 <FreeFull> I'm thinking, you'd have a vm that runs the parser, and undefined instructions would modify some location in the vm's memory according to the rules at the time of execution
21:30:02 <FreeFull> So you could arbitrarily rewrite the interpreter
21:30:24 <ais523> FreeFull: oh, that's been done, I think
21:30:45 <ais523> Emmental was even the featured article quite recently
21:30:58 <ais523> that reminds me, it's not April any more, we should take Deadfish off the main page
21:31:50 <oerjan> `learn cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he's older than the universe hth.
21:31:59 <FreeFull> ais523: What I'm thinking of would be a bit harder, more in the spirit of malborge I think
21:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, we need to talk about your use of hth as punctuation
21:32:10 <ais523> FreeFull: most languages can be made arbitrarily difficult
21:32:15 <ais523> there just normally isn't much of a point in doing so
21:32:30 <FreeFull> It wouldn't be just straightforward metaprogramming
21:32:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean punctuation there's a completely visible period after it
21:32:57 <FreeFull> It'd be more like writing a C program that modifies the compiler in memory as it's being compiled
21:33:11 <FreeFull> Obviously you couldn't do that with standard C
21:33:59 <ais523> we need to give C++ templates I/O capabilities
21:34:03 <ais523> then you could do it with C++ >:)
21:34:36 <olsner> templates can output warnings
21:34:47 <FreeFull> C++ doesn't need more features
21:35:10 <Taneb> I'm gonna be off now
21:35:13 <olsner> (but you need heaps of post-processing to reduce those warnings to the actual data you wanted output)
21:35:24 <Taneb> jsvine, good luck with the remainder of the "interview"
21:35:56 <jsvine> Taneb: thanks! I'll be lurking for the next few days.
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21:36:04 <Bike> i thought the interview was tomorrow and this was just us dicking around
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21:36:14 <oerjan> <cpressey> jsvine: I got your email, 4PM EDT tomorrow (basically, 24h from now) is confirmed. <-- wait EVERYONE STOP TALKING it's too early
21:36:26 <ais523> oerjan: we're just talking to someone who showed up in the channel
21:36:54 <olsner> oerjan: besides, that's when the interview with cpressey starts, we're not in that interview
21:37:18 <jsvine> Yep. I have an "official" interview with cpressey tomorrow on this channel. But I'd like to meet as many willing esolangers as possible.
21:37:28 <olsner> (I'm guessing, since I missed the whole start of this)
21:37:33 <Bike> `pastelogs dick|fuck|shit|stack
21:37:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1214
21:38:01 <Bike> oh right there's an esolang with 'fuck' in it
21:38:12 <ais523> jsvine: you are aware that cpressey thinks it's impossible to write an interesting article about esolangs for what he thinks your target audience is, right?
21:38:27 <ais523> although it'd be amusing to prove him wrong
21:39:23 <oerjan> ok then i can skip the rest of the logs
21:39:45 <jsvine> ais523: Yep. He told me as much. Worth trying, though. And his definition of interesting is different than mine, or my editors', or our readers'.
21:40:12 <ais523> normally, I assume I know less about journalism than journalists do
21:40:12 <Bike> «2004-06-11.txt:20:25:41: <lament> fuck. 2004-06-11.txt:20:34:06: <lament> FUCK» a storied history
21:40:23 <jsvine> Inevitably, you'll all be disappointed by the result!
21:40:24 <Bike> who's the target audience anywho
21:40:54 <oerjan> Bike: financial analyzers, the kind who use haskell nowadays
21:41:12 <jsvine> The target audience is, broadly/vaguely, smart people who don't necessarily know programming and are curious about the world
21:41:56 <Bike> vaguely indeed
21:42:36 <Bike> i guess i have no idea who reads the wsj. rich people? whoever still reads newspapers? huffington post writers? total mystery
21:43:53 <jsvine> Take this with as many grains of salt as you like: the WSJ is the most widely-circulated newspaper in the U.S.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_States_by_circulation
21:43:54 <shachaf> cpressey: I hear that a dependent type system is actually not that difficult to implement. Someone keeps telling me I should read this one paper.
21:44:07 <olsner> ais523: now that you mentioned c++ and templates - a funny thing with template metaprogramming is that compilation seems easier than interpretation, a compiler pretty much looks like an interpreter
21:44:08 <Bike> so, a lot of people
21:44:31 <olsner> but an interpreter looks like crap, because putting values in types is messy
21:46:30 <nooodl_> jsvine: hmm! i definitely would've guessed new york times would be on top. i know nothing about american newspapers though
21:47:36 <kmc> jsvine: one thing I find interesting is that skill programming in weird / constrained languages is also useful for writing exploits for security holes
21:48:00 <jsvine> kmc: that *is* interesting. Examples?
21:48:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming
21:48:56 <ais523> yeah, the security angle is that most programs have locked down execution of code from outside
21:48:59 <kmc> basically you write an exploit by stringing together fragments of the legitimate code of the program you're exploiting
21:49:05 <ais523> so you have to craft your exploit entirely by cobbling together code that already exists
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21:50:10 <jsvine> Which is similar to how esolangs work?
21:50:28 <Bike> similar in that it's convoluted and weird, is the idea, i believe
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21:50:55 <kmc> it's like every executable you might want to exploit implicitly defines an esolang, and you write your exploit in that esolang
21:51:14 <ais523> yeah, it's similar to esoprogramming because you don't have the tools you normally have when writing a program
21:51:18 <ais523> you have to make do with what's available
21:51:19 <kmc> if you want to dig into the technical details, start with the paper 'The Geometry of Innocent Flesh on the Bone: Return-into-libc without Function Calls (on the x86)'
21:51:30 <jsvine> Ah, yeah, that makes sense.
21:51:40 <kmc> i'm happy to answer tech questions too (I don't know what your background is)
21:51:55 <jsvine> Huh, I'll take a look at that paper.
21:52:16 <kmc> another example is, maybe your exploit does have the ability to inject new machine code, but it has to be free of null bytes, or even has to contain only alphanumeric ASCII
21:52:34 <kmc> or every other pair of bytes needs to be 00 00
21:53:00 <kmc> these constraints arise from the details of the bug you're exploiting; maybe the input is sanitized before it reaches the vulnerable code
21:53:02 <ais523> I have program on here which, given an arbitrary file, outputs a DOS executable written entirely with printable characters that outputs that file
21:53:04 <jsvine> A bit on my background: I have no formal CS training, but have been programming (in boring languages like python, ruby and javascript) for a few years. I'm fascinated by CS theory, but grasp not enough of it.
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21:53:09 <ais523> it felt a lot like esoprogramming
21:53:23 <kmc> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=15 is an article about alphanumeric exploits in x86 machine code
21:53:32 <ais523> my idea was that if you didn't have a copy of uudecode handy, you could nonetheless obtain programs by typing them in
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21:54:12 <kmc> ais523: I realized recently that the EICAR Standard Anti-Virus Test File is such a DOS program as well
21:54:22 <kmc> (printable program that prints a string)
21:54:27 <ais523> I'd never looked at that file before now
21:54:31 <kmc> I would paste it here, but it might cause virus scanners to flag your IRC log files :)
21:54:33 <ais523> the problem is, it's quite hard to obtain
21:54:37 <kmc> yep http://www.eicar.org/86-0-Intended-use.html
21:54:40 <ais523> it sets off every antivirus scanner in existence
21:54:43 <ais523> because that's its /job/
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21:55:48 <ais523> "providing that the file starts with the following 68 characters, and is exactly 68 bytes long"
21:56:16 <olsner> a sort-of similar thing is if a program takes a sufficiently complicated data format, the "data" (that should be untrusted) can end up being some kind of esolang without even exploiting any bugs
21:56:28 <olsner> (but I think the potential for abuse here is mostly making a program use more memory or time than it should)
21:56:58 <ais523> olsner: well there are fun things like doing distributed computation
21:57:03 <ais523> via router error messages
21:57:07 <kmc> yeah, related to esolangs is the idea of writing programs in things that were never intended to be programming languages at all
21:57:33 <kmc> there's an IOCCC entry that implements an adventure game using only the C preprocessor
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21:58:15 <kmc> and all the stuff about proving Game of Life is turing complete, Tetris is NP-hard, etc
21:58:43 <olsner> ais523: ooh, tell me more
21:59:24 <FreeFull> The .rar VM would be fun to program in if you could take any input somehow
21:59:33 <ais523> olsner: I don't know more, and am not sure if it works
21:59:45 <kmc> complexity reductions are kind of like esoteric programming... to prove that 3-coloring graphs is NP-hard, you show that you can take a logical formula and construct a graph, such that the graph has a 3-coloring if and only if the formula is satisfiable
21:59:50 <ais523> kmc: I prefer the PSPACE-complete games
21:59:54 <ais523> like Sokoban, that one's interesting
22:00:04 <ais523> (PSPACE-complete normally implies that it'd be TC given infinite memory)
22:00:23 <kmc> but of course graphs don't have anything about variables, true and false, AND and OR built in, so you need to come up with particular shaped 'gadgets' that implement these concepts in terms of just edges, points, and colors assigned to points
22:00:43 <kmc> ais523: interesting; is there a formal statement of that last idea?
22:00:57 <ais523> kmc: I don't know of one, and there might not be one
22:01:12 <ais523> because the normal construction involves putting a repeating pattern on the playfield in one diection
22:01:25 <ais523> but nothing about being PSPACE-complete implies that a playfield-like concept even exists
22:01:56 <ais523> OTOH, being the sort of game that tends to be PSPACE-complete /does/ imply that a playfield-like concept exists :)
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22:03:11 <ais523> FreeFull: that's what I said a few lines ago
22:03:27 <FreeFull> I haven't been paying attention
22:03:56 <FreeFull> I wonder if there is any analog between sokoban that allows both pulling and pushing, and reversible programming
22:04:39 <ais523> well, it's normally easy to tell if something's reversible or not
22:04:44 <ais523> (except for Burro, apparently)
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22:04:57 <ais523> there are some interesting things that can be proved as a result of reversibility
22:05:18 <ais523> e.g. any reversible program where the process of starting is reversible, that has finite memory, must terminate
22:10:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: like, you can look at a program state
22:10:56 <ais523> and determine whether the program just started or not
22:18:24 <kmc> ais523: is the argument basically that if you're in an infinite loop, you don't have the state to keep track of how many times you've gone round the loop?
22:18:34 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the largest computer anyone here has seen had 1TB of memory
22:18:38 <kmc> that's a neat result
22:19:17 <olsner> (finite memory is probably less than that)
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22:30:51 <Bike> FreeFull: i thought the pspace sokoban thing was based on a similar model to billiard ball computing so
22:32:13 <FreeFull> ais523: Can't the reversible program loop in a direction, leaving trails
22:32:31 <ais523> FreeFull: it can't leave trails forever if there's finite memory
22:32:41 <ais523> that is the usual way to write an infinite loop in a TC reversible language, though
22:36:27 <FreeFull> Oh, yeah, if there is finite memory
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22:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to beone of those results where most of the work is in the definitions, though
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22:53:35 <ais523> the OMGWTF is getting a sequel
22:53:57 <ais523> " Also, your entry only counts if you install and deploy New Relic's performance monitoring software. It's free and only takes a few minutes to do, and you'll even be able to score one of their Nerd Life T-shirts in the process"
22:54:04 <ais523> a blatant advertising sequel, it seems
22:54:56 <ais523> basically a competition to write simple programs in insane ways
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23:43:13 <Sgeo> Was jsvine the reporter?
23:44:11 <mnoqy> something about lurking for a few days, interview with cpressey tomorrow, etc etc
23:49:45 <Sgeo> He saw a line that I said, quoted by someone else
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00:41:25 <zzo38> Do you know if the Linux kernel sends information of virtual console and login status to the POST display? Such thing might be useful for security purpose, possibly.
00:41:25 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:45:40 <Jafet> I don't think you can login on linux while the POST is still running.
00:47:24 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, but I think POST messages are just sent to one of the I/O ports on the PC, they just won't be displayed on the screen unless the POST is running, or something like that, isn't it?
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00:52:46 <Sgeo> Will he be back when I'm here?
00:52:50 <Sgeo> That seems unlikely
00:56:47 <shachaf> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog
00:58:44 <Bike> oh is that what that is.
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01:09:13 <shachaf> hey mnoqy what do you think of CoYoSet
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01:09:51 <ajf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
01:10:09 <ajf> somehow I managed to miss the Discussion tab on my language
01:12:59 <shachaf> elliott: imo https on esolangs plz thx hth
01:13:41 <shachaf> ajf: I think we should have https: support on esolangs.org.
01:13:56 <ajf> what's the point of it on such a site?
01:14:03 <Bike> PUT A/ This now reads "PRINT Z" <-- i don't get this
01:14:23 <shachaf> ajf: Well, people log in with passwords and things?
01:14:43 <shachaf> Also, people know what esolangs I'm reading about.
01:15:08 <shachaf> I may not want my interest in Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download to be public.
01:15:52 <kmc> without HTTPS, not only can people read whan you're seeing, they can tamper with it in arbitrary ways
01:15:58 <kmc> including taking any action you're allowed to take
01:16:59 <shachaf> I don't have an account so I'm less concerned about that.
01:17:32 <kmc> so when is the interview?
01:18:13 <shachaf> I'm also not that concerned about people tampering with the traffic and showing me wrong esolang information.
01:18:15 <ajf> Bike: let me explain
01:18:39 <ajf> that should say "PUT Z"
01:18:41 <kmc> what time?
01:18:46 <Bike> ok, that makes sense
01:18:58 <Bike> i was looking for alterations of u or t in vain
01:19:38 <Bike> might be nice if you made it a bit less encoding-dependent by allowing quoting characters
01:20:11 <ajf> encoding-dependent?
01:20:15 <Bike> DEFINE A TO '/' instead of DEFINE A TO FORTYSEVEN, though then you lose some of the ancient charm
01:20:26 <ajf> but it's not C
01:20:35 <ajf> it deliberately uses ASCII
01:20:43 <Bike> you'll like zzo
01:20:48 <ajf> it's compatible with ISO 464
01:20:51 <ajf> strictly speaking
01:21:28 <Bike> should be an esolang compliant with "Rolling bearings -- Radial bearings with locating snap ring -- Dimensions and tolerances" imo
01:22:12 <ajf> I'd really like to see if someone smarter than me can find a means to write real programs in this thing
01:22:16 <Bike> hm, i could as about the difference between ASCII and this ISO, or i could not do that and remain blissfully ignorant
01:23:36 <kmc> 'The original version (ISO 646 IRV) differed from ASCII only in that in code point 0024, ASCII's dollar sign ($) was replaced by the international currency symbol (¤). The final 1991 version of the code ISO 646:1991... is identical to ASCII."
01:23:46 <kmc> you know who proposed switching to ¤? communists
01:24:24 <Bike> ajf: maybe your 'author reflections' should go in the discussion page?
01:24:47 <kmc> also there are a bunch of "national variants" of ISO 646, but I don't think they're part of ISO 646 itself, but ISO 646 does at least specify certain characters that have to be there ("Invariant subset")
01:25:18 <kmc> C digraphs/trigraphs exist so that you can write C programs in a national variant using only the invariant subset
01:25:32 <Bike> so the rest of the characters may or may not be used in valid deviating percolator programs
01:25:58 <kmc> somehow they thought that 'int main() ä å' was less readable than 'int main() ??< ??>'
01:26:24 <shachaf> when is C getting pentagraphs
01:33:23 <zzo38> kmc: perhaps so that they will always be displayed and printout the same on different computers
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01:36:49 <zzo38> The TV caption set also is mostly ASCII but with a few differences. Digi-RGB-Plus also uses a superset of the TV caption set (the added stuff isn't printable characters though).
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01:38:51 <kmc> what's the TV caption set? i know it has ♫
01:39:27 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is one of the things it has. But you can look it up in Wikipedia or something; I do not entirely remember at this time.
01:40:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608#Characters
01:41:43 <kmc> sorry, ♪ not ♫
01:42:09 -!- kmc has set topic: ♪ LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc ♪ | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
01:42:39 <zzo38> Yes, now the TOPIC message is better. Now make it into actual music.
01:42:48 <kmc> i can't compose music
01:43:16 <zzo38> (One format for such a thing is "ANSI music" which makes MML in ANSI escape codes, although I don't know of any programs that will play ANSI music.)
01:47:07 <zzo38> Music Macro Language
01:56:00 <zzo38> quintopia: Somewhat.
01:56:30 <kmc> zzo38 can famicompose
01:56:43 <Lumpio-> Is that like posing with a famicom
01:57:10 <zzo38> quintopia: Then you will need some .NSF player program.
01:57:36 <kmc> i wasn't kidding that ¤ was proposed by communists
01:57:44 <kmc> by 1991 the communists had bigger things to worry about
01:57:47 <Bike> which communists
01:57:54 <kmc> don't remember
01:57:59 <zzo38> kmc: I didn't expect you do be kidding, but I also don't expect that to be particularly relevant.
01:58:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you leave yesterday because I was badgering you?
01:58:31 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it was because I was sleeping.
01:58:42 <kmc> "Highly dubious since almost all the Communist nations use Cyrillic script" not really true
01:59:04 <zzo38> http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38
01:59:23 <Bike> kmc: what, who the heck wrote that
01:59:32 <kmc> someone on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACurrency_(typography)
01:59:34 <Bike> "some foo' on wikipedia"
01:59:51 <Bike> chinese written in cyrillic is scary
01:59:55 <kmc> haha i bet
02:00:31 <Lumpio-> yeah but communist == russian no?
02:00:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillization_of_Chinese
02:00:57 <Bike> I guess it's just as scary as Romanization of chinese, really
02:01:21 <Bike> and without the ridiculous baggage of postal map
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02:35:12 <shachaf> kmc: came on can't you tell me how to crack the hash and call it a day?
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03:10:21 <kmc> 3 Weird Old Hash-Cracking Tricks
03:13:50 <copumpkin> can u decrytp my md5 password i forgot it
03:14:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: we don't need your parodies, we have the real thing in ##crypto
03:20:24 <Sgeo> That sounds entertaining, I should sit there and watch
03:20:34 <shachaf> Sgeo............................................................
03:27:27 <copumpkin> what was that story you keep bugging me to read?
03:27:34 <copumpkin> I have decided to get it over with
03:28:05 <shachaf> The PDF was replaced with a new PDF.
03:29:21 <shachaf> This suspicious Russian website seems to have a copy.
03:29:50 <shachaf> (It's also in a book. I have either one or two copies of the book.)
03:29:52 <shachaf> http://xn----7sbb3aiknde1bb0dyd.xn--p1ai/index.php?id=78642
03:29:57 <shachaf> Wow, that's one suspicious URL.
03:31:08 <shachaf> Those tend to be up to no good.
03:31:17 <shachaf> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=glacierpeak.sno.wednet.edu/teachers/bjuhl/docs/Soph%2520English/Second%2520Semester/Alienation,%2520Tolerance,%2520Cyrano/Related%2520Poems,%2520Articles,%2520Short%2520Stories,%2520Etc/Liking%2520What%2520You%2520See%2520Portrait%2520Version.doc
03:31:26 <kmc> ##crypto has surprisingly little of the thing we were just complaining about
03:33:01 <kmc> shachaf: cool
03:33:49 <kmc> читать-онлайн.рф
03:33:58 <kmc> read-online
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03:35:01 <shachaf> Why did clarku.edu change their welcome/placement/pdf/reading.pdf? :-(
03:35:06 <shachaf> (I have the feeling this story isn't actually meant to be floating around on the Internet.)
03:35:26 <kmc> maybe they changed the reading for the placement exam?!?
03:35:39 <shachaf> kmc: Yes. I meant why they changed that.
03:35:42 <shachaf> (But maybe the net result is that people buy more copies of the book!)
03:47:31 <kmc> can you obfuscate Latin letters using Punycode?
03:47:41 <kmc> sort of analogous to overlong UTF-8
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03:54:33 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know, but I suppose if it exist it would be useful for making coding of ASCII characters that aren't allowed in domain names, or to make them case sensitive.
03:58:55 <zzo38> It doesn't seems so; Punycode can only encode code points starting at 128. However, it might be possible to encode numbers outside of the Unicode range.
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04:47:10 <kmc> shachaf: your name sounds like the russian word for "cabinet", I guess?
04:47:45 <kmc> i suppose so
04:47:55 <shachaf> The ch is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative
04:48:06 <kmc> some day I should learn what all of those are
04:48:16 <shachaf> There's a Play button on that page!
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05:17:17 <kmc> what was that science fiction novel / set of stories / something that I was told here to read
05:17:40 <shachaf> You mean the book that story came from? Or an unrelated book?
05:18:32 <kmc> no some other book
05:19:05 <kmc> it was a while ago and i don't have other information :'(
05:19:23 <kmc> in one of the first chapters the aliens send information on how to do FTL communication
05:23:24 <kmc> (but I should also read Stories of Your Life and Others, yes)
05:23:56 <shachaf> Maybe oerjan will remember since he logreads.
05:28:46 <zzo38> The first four astrological signs have the same letters as the DNA.
05:29:15 <zzo38> I just noticed this now.
05:29:23 <Bike> Where's uracil?
05:29:53 <zzo38> Uracil is used with RNA, not DNA, isn't it?
05:30:34 <kmc> shachaf: well, anyway, what else should I read
05:30:52 <kmc> i could try to download some smullyan ebooks
05:30:53 <kmc> which ones
05:31:12 <shachaf> do you want "philosophical" or "puzzle" or "academic" or what
05:31:56 <kmc> philosophical i think
05:32:40 <zzo38> I think this correspondence is a strange coincidence, isn't it?
05:32:50 <Bike> yeah but rna is important man
05:33:09 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it is important, but not relevant to what I am saying.
05:36:10 <shachaf> kmc: _The Tao Is Silent_, _This Book Needs No Title_, _5000 B.C._
05:36:32 <shachaf> At least those are three main ones I read. I like them.
05:37:27 <zzo38> I have wanted to get some books from Smullyan but I don't have any, yet.
05:37:36 <shachaf> also i think i told you you should read _Impro_ by Keith Johnstone
05:38:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I didn't find it at the store, yet, but perhaps I can find it in a different store; I will try again later.
05:39:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Perhaps you can find it on the Internet.
05:43:28 <kmc> shachaf: and which one first?
05:44:05 <shachaf> The order I gave is reasonable.
05:44:37 <shachaf> I think I read the second one first. I don't know that it matters much.
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07:42:27 <kmc> do not know
07:42:45 <kmc> what about vanna and vomma
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08:00:08 <shachaf> (as what's-'is-name would say)
08:01:07 <kmc> ååååååååååååååååååååååål
08:06:48 <cpressey> <Sgeo> Was jsvine the reporter? <-- yes, and presumably still is, unless what he read in here made him want to ragequit his job
08:07:22 <shachaf> cpressey: People who are not in #esoteric don't exist.
08:07:27 <shachaf> Why do you think we want to keep you here?
08:07:46 <cpressey> see, there's that solipsism thing again
08:08:01 <shachaf> I think *all* of us here in #esoteric exist.
08:08:05 <shachaf> And we're all different people.
08:08:46 <cpressey> i wonder if philosophers have a word for that one though
08:08:49 <fizzie> "This is the kind of people I have to interact with, because of my job? *ragequits*"
08:13:49 <cpressey> maybe i should just abort this line of inquiry
08:15:49 <cpressey> my actual question is something more like: one of my pet peeves is the phrase "post-PC world" because I don't think programmers will stop using PCs any time soon (mainly for the dual monitors amirite) and so it's a silly phrase but maybe we'll just start calling non-portable computers "workstations" again and everything will be OK
08:16:12 <shachaf> I thought "PC" meant "IBM PC compatible".
08:17:02 <cpressey> i don't think people who use the phrase "post-PC world" are thinking quite that specifically about the term
08:17:36 <cpressey> and i didn't get the impression "post-PC world" == "omg Apple won"
08:18:28 <shachaf> No, it's "omg ARM computers won"
08:19:46 <cpressey> the context i've seen it in, it seemed more about mobile devices... and if those include laptops, then ok, sure, I can develop software on a netbook; but i've never tried developing software on anything smaller -- i'm sure it's possible, but i'm not sure anyone'd want to
08:21:16 <cpressey> oh, Steve Jobs apparently coined/popularized that phrase. so maybe i've got it entirely wrong
08:22:06 <cpressey> "[Jobs] said that PCs are going to be "like trucks" in that they'll still be around and useful for certain work, but only a smaller percentage of the users will need one." ok, that's actually sane.
08:22:31 <cpressey> i still think we should go back to calling them workstations, though
08:25:28 <fizzie> "The IEEE will accept: any IBM-PC (or 100% compatible) disk format: 3.5-in/720k/l.44 Mb" they're very modern over there.
08:26:08 <fizzie> (The "IBM PC" mention reminded me of reading that a while ago.)
08:27:20 <fizzie> And I think we should start calling them workhorses.
08:27:35 <fizzie> There's probably a plethora of horse-related slang vocabulary that could be adapted.
08:30:49 <cpressey> hmmm, bridle, stirrups, feedbag... well, i know i've worked in cubicle-less environments where i would've really have liked to wear a set of blinders, might that count?
08:31:17 <cpressey> headphones look less silly but they only mask out aural noise
08:32:00 <kmc> i don't like this world because i don't want the line between people who make programs and people who merely use them to be so sharp
08:32:50 <kmc> in apple's world you have to pay another thousand bucks for the machine that can make programs *and* you have to run all the programs you make by apple first
08:33:35 <kmc> it's true that most people will never make a program, but many of the people who do make programs didn't set out to do so in a spend-a-thousand-bucks way; they just stumbled into it here or there
08:34:17 <cpressey> kmc: i understand the feeling, but also, there's that whole "division of labour" thing.
08:34:51 <kmc> imo delegating the ability to write programs to someone else is like delegating the ability to read to someone else
08:35:11 <Jafet> What about the ability to read programs
08:35:13 <kmc> but also, like I said, I'm fine with the division of labor, I just don't think the divide should be so entrenched
08:36:15 <Jafet> Reverse Engineering And Debugging
08:36:35 <olsner> before you can read programs, someone needs the ability to write programs that can be read
08:36:50 <Jafet> Actually, software engineering is a bit unusual in that it is unregulated
08:36:58 <Jafet> Most other fields of engineering are
08:37:07 <cpressey> kmc: i don't like where it's going very much either. having said that, ... i can change the oil in my car and maybe fix a flat, ...
08:37:16 <kmc> maybe I'm romanticizing the past but I thought in the 80s you could buy a 'home computer' (incl. the Apple ][!) and play some games and run some business programs and then one day, if you need to do something new, you can learn BASIC quickly and write a little BASIC program without being like "I must buy a totally different machine and also get a 4 year CS degree before I can do anything"
08:37:38 <kmc> we've sort of gone backwards in that regard
08:38:21 <olsner> Jafet: I'm not sure what engineering means but I suspect "software engineering" is not related
08:38:55 <Jafet> In the 2010s you could buy a 'home computer' (incl. a Mac!) and play some games and run some business programs and then one day, if you need to do something new, you can learn any one of ten different languages and write a program
08:39:13 <kmc> Jafet: or you can buy an iPad and not be able to do that
08:39:24 <kmc> and Apple wants a world eventually where most people only have an iPad and not a computer
08:39:30 <kmc> that's what we were talking about, that's what I'm complaining about
08:39:42 <cpressey> a software engineer is more like a ship's engineer than a professional engineer... sort of.
08:39:51 <Jafet> Why are we caring about what Apple wants
08:40:03 <kmc> Jafet: because they are one of the richest and most powerful entities in the world?
08:40:13 <kmc> why do we care what the US government wants? because it affects us
08:40:19 <cpressey> Jafet: well, a lot of people want that (Apple or no) too, it would seem
08:40:42 <cpressey> i learned recently that >50% of mobile device use actually happens *at home*
08:40:45 <Jafet> Apple isn't going to take over your PC, or probably your Mac for that matter
08:40:46 <shachaf> I,I more like an auto mechanic than a quantum mechanic
08:40:59 <kmc> most attempts I've seen to justify why programming isn't engineering end up being mystical nonsense and confirmation of existing biases in the audience
08:40:59 <cpressey> i might be misremembering the percentage but it's surprisingly large
08:41:30 <kmc> for some reason we aren't happy thinking of ourselves as engineers, we have to be special snowflake hacker wizard painter ninjas
08:41:47 <cpressey> kmc: professional engineers write proofs.
08:41:50 <Jafet> Programming is like rock music. You get a wacky idea, and pull some friends together in your garage and hope a big company decides to fund your work later on.
08:41:57 <shachaf> i'm just a regular snowflake :'(
08:41:58 <kmc> that's convenient because it justifies any personal quirks, any bizarre work style, puts the blame 100% on management for being unmanageable
08:42:34 <kmc> Jafet: except rock bands give up a lot more equity :)
08:42:57 <Jafet> Yeah, don't join a rock band (you also need actual talent)
08:42:59 <cpressey> an engineer produces a document that proves that the design meets the spec. proofs about software are hard (=expensive) so no one does them (unless lives or a whole lot of money are at stake.)
08:44:05 <Jafet> I don't think most civil engineers write proofs of anything
08:44:46 <shachaf> I was at a civil engineer student meeting thing in Berkeley.
08:44:54 <cpressey> a ship's engineer, on the other hand, keeps the ship running. which, in the internet age, is a lot like SHIT IS THAT MY PAGER
08:45:02 <shachaf> There was a presentation about startups.
08:45:25 <kmc> did they disrupt bridge building
08:45:43 <Jafet> You're in the bay area, shachaf. Everything is about startups.
08:46:16 <shachaf> They talked about Y Combinator, this competition that happens twice a year, once in Boston and once in CA. If the judges of the competition like you you get more money.
08:46:21 <kmc> maybe i shouldn't move there :/
08:46:35 <kmc> shachaf: heh
08:46:40 <kmc> not very accurate...
08:47:36 <kmc> how can we use civil engineering to solve the problems of rich 20somethings by gluing together a few existing parts
08:47:45 <shachaf> Anyway it was funny. My friend the civil engineering major suggested that I go but I didn't expect that.
08:47:53 <cpressey> CEaaS -- civil engineering as a service
08:48:17 <kmc> It's like an AIRBNB but for MUNICIPAL SEWER SYSTEMS!
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08:49:14 <shachaf> i've got a bridge to give you a special 90% local deal on
08:49:36 <kmc> It's like a KICKSTARTER but for FUNDING RAPID TRANSIT SYSTEMS!
08:49:47 <kmc> i would be all over that
08:50:01 <Jafet> Be careful kmc, you might actually get investors for that.
08:50:24 <shachaf> kmc: should caltrain be replaced with bart
08:50:43 <shachaf> lexande asked me when he was in palo alto
08:50:45 <kmc> mnoqy asks the tough questions
08:50:57 <cpressey> bart is a guy who shows up at your house with a rickshaw
08:51:10 <kmc> shachaf: this would result in it being grade separated and electrified
08:51:23 <cpressey> (or a rickroll, or a rickrain)
08:51:26 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey ask me a tough question
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08:52:26 <shachaf> hey mnoqy do you know about trains
08:52:43 <mnoqy> i've heard good things about them
08:52:58 <shachaf> have you ever been on a train
08:53:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey how's well doing
08:53:08 <mnoqy> ive been on the kiddie train at the zoo
08:55:26 <kmc> whats well
08:55:33 <cpressey> is y/y an emoticon of some sort
08:55:37 <mnoqy> now that's a tough question
08:55:58 <cpressey> looks kind of like a lizard with its hands up maybe
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08:56:49 <cpressey> help i think i've reached the edge of the terrarium y/y
08:57:22 <olsner> I'm a lizard and I give up y/y
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08:58:23 <mnoqy> help im not seeing it y7y
09:00:08 <shachaf> how doth the little mnoqydile / improve his shining tail
09:01:23 <kmc> there are at least six Linux kernel source trees in my home directory
09:02:32 <shachaf> Divine and Moral Songs for Children
09:02:43 <shachaf> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Against_Idleness_and_Mischief
09:03:03 <cpressey> mnoqy: http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4998758826115227 is as close as i've found so far
09:03:04 <kmc> must sleep now
09:03:38 <shachaf> kmc: You have a flight in, what, 10 hours?
09:04:21 <kmc> more like 11
09:04:38 <shachaf> Let's settle on 10 hours and 40 minutes.
09:05:03 <olsner> 10 hours and 60 minutes would be much more like 11
09:05:40 <shachaf> That I am taught to know / The danger I was in; / By nature, and by practice too, / A wretched slave to sin.
09:06:09 <shachaf> That I am led to see / I can do nothing well; / And whither shall a sinner flee, / To save himself from hell?
09:08:13 <shachaf> i should get copies of this book and hand it out to children
09:08:33 <fizzie> A TRAIN from Nice to Geneva cost the same amount of money (25 EUR) as the airport BUS from Lugano to Malpensa, even though the distance is like twenty times that.
09:08:56 <fizzie> That's the power of TRAINS, I believe.
09:09:16 <shachaf> fizzie: hey can i be a train
09:09:32 <fizzie> The little engine that could.
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09:34:55 <zzo38> Is '-)XX_.Xa_$-(' a proper numeric format string?
09:36:49 <FreeFull> I wonder if the ASCII subset of x86 machine code is turing-complete
09:37:13 <FreeFull> Assuming some storage device on the COM1 port with infinite storage
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09:37:57 <zzo38> FreeFull: Maybe it is, I think people have tried to do things like this sometimes.
09:40:53 <FreeFull> I know it is possible to write DOS programs using ASCII
09:41:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: Assuming you mean the printable characters of ASCII, people habitually write shellcode using that.
09:41:52 <FreeFull> But I'm also thinking it means you can't access certain instructions, call instructions with certain characters or access certain memory adresses
09:42:19 <lifthrasiir> kernel entirely written in the ASCII subset perhaps?
09:42:23 <FreeFull> fizzie: Since otherwise there wouldn't be any problem
09:42:28 <zzo38> Yes, although maybe it may be possible to make self-modifying codes or whatever
09:42:36 <fizzie> FreeFull: Well, ASCII in general would limit you to half of the instructions.
09:42:49 <fizzie> I'm reasonably certain you can access any memory address, just circuitously.
09:42:58 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: On a PC, at least, I don't think you can because the MBR code is required to end with a certain code.
09:43:01 <fizzie> Allowing for self-modifying code, probably also do anything you want.
09:43:48 <lifthrasiir> though the kernel does not have to include a boot loader
09:43:59 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, like that, and 0xAA isn't the printable ASCII range.
09:44:05 <FreeFull> fizzie: Probably through modifying the code as it's being executed
09:44:50 <fizzie> You don't need self-modification for arbitrary memory access, though; just some indirect addressing modes and general arithmetics.
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09:47:20 <fizzie> Apparently there's at least one converter for generic x86 code to purely alphanumeric ASCII.
09:48:03 <fizzie> (That one is based on self-modifying code; encodes the original code in some alphanumeric format; at runtime, decodes and executes.)
09:48:28 <fizzie> (Probably there's more than one.)
09:51:02 <shachaf> I have discovered what feather is.
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09:51:29 <fizzie> $STUPID_TIME_TRAVEL_REFERENCING_REPLY
09:51:47 <fizzie> (One is required by the conventions whenever Feather is mentioned.)
09:51:49 <shachaf> feather is feather.perl6.nl
09:52:27 <fizzie> Yes, well, one is required also when it's about some other feather altogether. Them's the rules.
09:53:37 <shachaf> fizzie sounds almost Dutch with your pronunciation
09:53:57 <shachaf> "je" is a Dutch diminutive, you know.
09:54:35 <fizzie> I know they do -je a lot.
09:55:13 <fizzie> I spent a month in the Flemish region of Belgium last summer, it was all -je.
09:55:13 <shachaf> "pietsje" is a name, for instance.
09:55:19 <shachaf> I think that's the spelling?
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09:56:27 <fizzie> Boomstammetje met bloemkool.
09:56:58 <shachaf> fizzie: What do you think of monoids?
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09:57:40 <fizzie> (According to the menu at where I was, that means: meat tree with cauliflower.)
09:58:12 <fizzie> All I know about them is the proverbial easiness.
09:59:23 <fizzie> Also from the menu: "Hungarian castle cemetary stew with tree trunks," or, "Graveyard stew from the Hungarian castles, with tree trunks."
09:59:42 <fizzie> (First from the English menu; second from Google translate of the local language version.)
10:00:08 <fizzie> It was sometimes kind of hard to figure out in advance what it will be like.
10:00:25 <shachaf> fizzie: The English translation seems to be pretty good.
10:11:09 <Taneb> My path to knowing Agda has just furthered ONE MORE STEP
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab : forall {A n} (f : Fin n -> A)(i : Fin n) ->
10:11:27 <Taneb> (tabulate f ! i) == f i
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab {_} {zero} _ ()
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab {_} {suc n} f fzero = refl
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab {t} {suc n} f (fsuc i) = lem-!-tab {t} {n} (f ∘ fsuc) i
10:11:47 <Taneb> It's probably awful Agda
10:13:09 <Taneb> From http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~ulfn/papers/afp08/tutorial.pdf
10:13:23 <Taneb> tabulate : {n : Nat}{A : Set} -> (Fin n -> A) -> Vec A n
10:13:23 <Taneb> tabulate {zero} f = []
10:13:23 <Taneb> tabulate {suc n} f = f fzero :: tabulate (f ∘ fsuc)
10:13:58 <shachaf> So it's a proof that (tabulate f ! i) == f i.
10:14:32 <Taneb> It's a series of racing games made by Nintendo
10:15:08 <Taneb> data Fin : Nat -> Set where
10:15:08 <Taneb> fzero : {n : Nat} -> Fin (suc n)
10:15:08 <Taneb> fsuc : {n : Nat} -> Fin n -> Fin (suc n)
10:15:32 <Taneb> That is the next exercise!
10:18:41 <shachaf> Does lem stand for lemma? I thought it stood for law of excluded middle.
10:18:50 <shachaf> Exercise: Prove the lemma of excluded middle.
10:18:56 <fizzie> I thought it stood for lemmings.
10:19:32 <Taneb> You'd have to ask the person who wrote these exercises
10:19:39 <Taneb> I'm just someone working at home at his own pace
10:21:01 <fizzie> "http://sprunge.us/MbWM <- re standing for something.
10:21:37 <fizzie> Why is there a " in my http.
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11:26:32 <shachaf> kmc: https://twitter.com/mwotton/statuses/339697660984438784
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11:56:16 <oonbotti> You can get help about specific command with #help <command>. Commands: #echo, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza, #/etc/passwd
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12:01:38 <cpressey> #whatlanguageareyouwritteninoonbotti
12:02:43 <Koen_> for two seconds I thought you were answering a question from the interview
12:04:20 <cpressey> #/etc/passwd what does that do
12:04:20 <oonbotti> root:x:0:0:Root Administrator:/root:/bin/mksh\nnobody:x:99:99:Unprivileged User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nwww:x:80:80:Web Server User:/var/www:/bin/false\nmessagebus:x:25:25:DBUS Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nhaldaemon:x:26:26:HAL Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nnaw:x:1000:1000:Linux User,,,:/home/naw:/bin/mksh\npjotr:x:1001:1001:Linux User,,,:/home/pjotr:/bin/sh\nnortti:x:1337:1337:Linux User,,,:/home/nortti:/bin/mksh\n
12:04:50 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /etc/passwd
12:05:30 <cpressey> i guess that explains why it's its own command, but i'm still kind of at a loss as to why that functionality exists
12:05:42 <shachaf> Oops, The Interview is in, what, 8 hours?
12:05:49 <shachaf> There's no way I'll be awake in 8 hours, is there?
12:06:26 <cpressey> note, not actually suggesting that
12:07:00 <shachaf> I just bought a book by N. G. de Bruijn!
12:09:44 <cpressey> and it's all written in de Bruijn notation -- which is, admittedly, a little difficult to imagine for prose
12:10:20 <shachaf> de bruijn notation has prose and conse
12:11:24 <nortti> cpressey: because people kept trying to #cat /etc/passwd so if they really are that interested I added #/etc/passwd
12:11:37 <cpressey> conse and care and cdre and cadre
12:12:31 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /etc/shadow
12:12:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: fact faq ft let map part what
12:12:42 <cpressey> nortti: i see. following the same logic, if people kept trying to crash it, would you add a #crash command? (also, what language is it written in?)
12:13:14 <shachaf> #cat /dev/null # this'll surely crash the bot!
12:13:14 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /dev/null
12:14:22 <cpressey> #echo @tell cpressey important message from oonbotti
12:14:22 <oonbotti> @tell cpressey important message from oonbotti
12:15:01 <cpressey> lambdabot: any messages for me?
12:15:23 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:15:34 <lambdabot> oonbotti said 1m 11s ago: important message from oonbotti
12:15:34 <oonbotti> lambdabot: Can you elaborate on that?
12:15:42 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess it's time to make a bot loop.
12:15:48 <shachaf> important message from oonbotti
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12:16:00 <fizzie> A bot loop makes a lot of boops.
12:16:26 <shachaf> ?where+ test #echo ?where test
12:16:30 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /bin/ls
12:21:05 <nortti> note: oonbitti doesn't call external programs outside of #cc (broken) and #exec (broken)
12:21:15 <shachaf> You should make oonbotti leave.
12:21:24 <shachaf> If there's a bot loop, I mean.
12:21:40 <shachaf> lambdabot: @ignore + oonbotti
12:21:50 <shachaf> lambdabot: @ignore - oonbotti
12:22:26 <fizzie> I had a +q all ready in the input line history, but then you made it happen just when I gave up on waiting for it to happen.
12:23:17 <shachaf> Which bot were you going to +q?
12:23:29 <shachaf> Or was I the intended target? You can still do that.
12:24:10 <fizzie> oonbotti, for reasons that I don't really know.
12:24:10 <oonbotti> fizzie: Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
12:27:18 <shachaf> oonbotti: Tell me about loom.
12:27:18 <oonbotti> shachaf: Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
12:27:26 <shachaf> oonbotti: Do you ever say anything else?
12:27:26 <oonbotti> shachaf: Perhaps the answer lies within yourself?
12:28:14 <fizzie> oonbotti: Do you always answer questions with another question?
12:28:14 <oonbotti> fizzie: Why don't you tell me?
12:28:31 <fizzie> oonbotti: Based on what I've seen so far, I think the answer is "yes".
12:28:31 <oonbotti> fizzie: I see. And what does that tell you?
12:29:35 <shachaf> oonbotti: You even answer statements with questions.
12:29:36 <oonbotti> shachaf: Why do you care whether I even answer statements with questions.?
12:30:24 <fizzie> oonbotti: You even do punctuation wrong sometimes.
12:30:24 <oonbotti> fizzie: Why do you say that about me?
12:30:32 <fizzie> oonbotti: Because it's TRUE.
12:30:32 <oonbotti> fizzie: If it's true., what else must be true?
12:30:44 <fizzie> That's exactly what I'm talking about.
12:31:06 <nortti> it is eliza, what did you expect?
12:31:57 <nortti> oonbotti: are you sentient?
12:31:57 <oonbotti> nortti: Would you prefer it if I were not sentient?
12:32:02 <oonbotti> nortti: Can you elaborate on that?
12:32:36 <fizzie> fungot: You could learn something about replies that are generally appropriate in most contexts, though.
12:32:37 <fungot> fizzie: throughout this manual contains the location of the chosen 16k block of memory pointer 648, basic doesn't require blanks between words unless leaving them out would give you the cycles per second.
12:33:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:33:34 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
12:33:51 <nortti> because, why not feed fungot into fungot?
12:33:52 <fungot> nortti: " and this is a new game. there is no. yellow is yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
12:34:54 <oonbotti> shachaf: I see. And what does that tell you?
12:35:10 <shachaf> oonbotti: It tells me that everyone's being irritating.
12:35:10 <oonbotti> shachaf: I see. And what does that tell you?
12:35:28 <shachaf> oonbotti: It tells me that... I don't know what!
12:36:28 <fungot> nortti: and is one thing which you might want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
12:37:00 <elliott> cpressey: i hear i missed a thing
12:37:31 <shachaf> elliott: You didn't miss me hating everything.
12:38:02 <cpressey> elliott: you missed reporter coming in and getting a feel for the channel
12:38:18 <fizzie> You missed a reporter "copping a feel".
12:38:52 <elliott> was it as good as i'm imagining, i don't want to spoil it by reading the logs
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12:39:53 <cpressey> well, aiui he still plans to come back tonight, so
12:40:08 <cpressey> not sure what you were imagining
12:40:53 <fizzie> When was the Real Deal again? Thursday?
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12:42:51 <elliott> cpressey: did anyone take the opportunity to tell him how awful an idea this whole thing is
12:43:26 -!- shachaf has left.
12:43:55 <cpressey> elliott: yes. he seems undaunted.
12:44:19 <elliott> cpressey: a true journalist
12:49:46 <elliott> i like how the channel started a discussing of rickrolling after he joined. gotta show him we're up to date
12:52:12 <cpressey> <ais523> OTOH, being the sort of game that tends to be PSPACE-complete /does/ imply that a playfield-like concept exists :) <-- SET GAME is a little closer to Nim... harder to see that as a playfield
12:55:01 <elliott> 20:11:34: <Bike> http://www.jsvine.com/ this is probably the journalist
12:55:05 <elliott> Bike: grats doing this while he's in the channel
12:55:50 <elliott> 20:15:52: <Taneb> jsvine, as you can tell, we are a community who, although primarily linked by esoteric programming languages, share a wide variety of interests
12:55:53 <elliott> 20:16:03: <Taneb> Including rampant silliness
12:55:54 <elliott> Taneb: if this gets printed...
12:56:23 <Taneb> IT WILL BE AWESOME
12:56:23 <cpressey> Bike: never mind that question. irc logs are sometimes hard to read
12:56:43 <Taneb> Then I'll have been quoted in both the Wall Street Journal AND the Financial Times
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12:59:24 <cpressey> in the book "The Cognitive Connection" they mention a programming language designed, essentially, as art. In the 80's, by someone French, iirc. I'll have to find that book again sometime.
13:00:16 <cpressey> there's also... that one video game... and that one virtual world.
13:01:39 <Taneb> There was the video game which was Befunge with humungous mechas, wasn't there?
13:01:59 <cpressey> Taneb: that's the one; I want to call it "fallen winter wolf" which is clearly not it
13:02:17 <cpressey> betcha that when i do remember, though, the logic there will seem less random
13:02:25 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_Heart
13:02:49 <cpressey> well, carnage ~= fallen, maybe, but i don't know where "winter wolf" came from
13:03:31 <cpressey> i want to say something like "actionworld"
13:03:45 <elliott> now we have to make a game called fallen winter wolf
13:04:32 <Taneb> Or, I could play F Zero
13:04:43 <fizzie> cpressey: From "Heart of the Winter Wolf", a paranormal romance novel, of course.
13:05:00 <fizzie> "James Macleod was a Changeling who'd lost everything dear to him in a single night of blood and fire. Devastated by guilt and driven by grief, he became a great white wolf and vowed never to walk as a man again - until a small blonde veterinarian shook his resolve and his world."
13:05:05 <fizzie> It must've made an impression on you.
13:05:50 <fizzie> And Active Worlds is one of the virtual reality platforms, if that's what you meant.
13:06:17 <fizzie> (Formerly AlphaWorld.)
13:09:40 <cpressey> fizzie: that synopsis had me at "small"
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13:10:39 <cpressey> and yes, i think i was thinking of Active Worlds, but i don't actually know much about it
13:14:16 <cpressey> possibly not. I got the impression things were more coded *by* things *in* the world; maybe i got an misconception, or maybe i'm thinking of something else
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13:27:32 <cpressey> i think i was confusing it with KidSim
13:30:00 <cpressey> `learn ZOMGMODULES is a small blonde veterinarian
13:30:17 <HackEgo> cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he's older than the universe hth.
13:31:40 <elliott> haha oerjan linking jsvine to the wikipedia piet afd
13:31:49 <elliott> that'll make a great part of the article
13:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> `learn cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
13:32:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw cpressey has wanted to know about friendship mouse for a few days
13:33:09 <boily> how many cpressey wisdoms are we at?
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13:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-08-10#141057PhantomHoover onwards hth
13:40:22 <elliott> nice that log has some prime itidus for cpressey to understand too
13:41:39 <boily> itidus' = ditidus / dx | n = 20
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14:07:48 <metasepia> KJFK 291351Z 24004KT 6SM HZ BKN010 BKN085 18/16 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP198 T01830156
14:09:00 <boily> Jafet: good cloudy morning!
14:09:10 <boily> jsvine: good cloudy morning, says I.
14:09:15 <boily> once again autocompletion hates me.
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15:42:15 <zzo38> Today I connected to X-BIT but most door programs aren't working (even IceEdit isn't working). I think all the ones that are failing are DOS programs, so perhaps the DOS subsystem broke somehow. Some door programs do work; I think those ones are written in JavaScript, though. I did manage to successfully send a message by setting the "editor" config to "none", however.
15:43:00 <boily> zzo38: good fungotty morning!
15:43:00 <fungot> boily: just to help an fnord archive) it's ( syntactically) long
15:43:20 <boily> zzo38: they had javascript in the bbs days?
15:43:34 <zzo38> boily: No, but they do now.
15:44:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:46:33 <zzo38> It is the Mozilla JavaScript, so the extensions which are supported by Mozilla are supported in Synchronet too.
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15:51:51 <boily> holy fungot. peeking at crawl's git repo is very spoily, but oooooh... it feels good...
15:51:51 <fungot> boily: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose ( similar, and i'd like to see that mystical forest powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction to theoretical computer, fnord of the fnord here, so i don't
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15:53:50 <cpressey> fungot on fungot is extremely fungot-y
15:53:50 <fungot> cpressey: i am just as confused. you know, that the hall. a good hit will wake and behold
15:54:42 * boily hits fungot good. “Behold!”
15:54:42 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:55:16 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:55:16 <fungot> oerjan: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript
15:55:19 <HackEgo> 1042) <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:58:12 <cpressey> Bike: lemme change what i said to: thank you for mentioning Knowlton because I was not really aware of him before. http://www.kenknowlton.com/pages/04portrait.htm is a good read
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16:02:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> Maybe oerjan will remember since he logreads. <-- nope.
16:03:38 <oerjan> maybe shachaf will never know since he doesn't.
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16:31:27 <kmc> fungot: what should i read
16:31:28 <fungot> kmc: uh, sorry, i have no information. he seemed, in fine, i can verify it in the files that were given to me. if anybody has any information on funge-108 i would be interest...
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16:33:14 <fungot> elliott: if it's ( syntactically) long
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16:40:08 <FreeFull> I don't think it's going to end up in the newspaper
16:41:56 <kmc> what time?
16:42:32 <Bike> 4 pm edt, i think was said
16:43:22 <Bike> elliott: also the site had already been linked like twice. i'm real good at this stalky thing
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16:45:01 <oerjan> !malbolge ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>a=<M:9[p6tsl1TS/QlOj)L(I&%$""Z~AA@UZ=RvttT`R5P3m0LEDh,T*?(b&`$#87[}{W
16:50:36 <quintopia> oerjan: did you make that one or find it?
16:51:15 <oerjan> someone just edited wikipedia's malbolge page by shortening the example there
16:52:05 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malbolge&diff=556858474&oldid=556635527
16:52:33 <oerjan> which leaves a conundrum, since the original version was the one on which the Elementary tv show reference was based, and this is mentioned in another section
16:53:32 <oerjan> so, how does one link to an older version of a wikipedia page from the same page
16:55:47 <elliott> how about just giving both the versions and noting the longer one as the one referenced
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16:58:55 <oerjan> elliott: um, sorry i didn't read your comment before committing hth
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17:34:33 <elliott> ion: (thanks for the fact checking :P)
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17:35:32 <elliott> no facts, of course. we can't have any facts in here
17:36:23 <oerjan> someone nipped my wp self-link pretty fast
17:39:19 <boily> `learn facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
17:39:59 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
17:40:09 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/fact{s,}
17:40:50 <HackEgo> facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
17:41:49 <oerjan> `run echo "Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups." >wisdom/lie
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17:44:34 <fizzie> The fact that all wisdoms go through rnooodl is I think kind of silly.
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17:45:54 <metasepia> noodle definition: a stupid person.
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18:16:00 <nooodl_> `learn nooodl is a stupid person
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18:20:48 <zzo38> I made some SQL extensions to improve some thing such as, making the EXEC function to execute SQL statements inside of a expression, CREATE_FUNCTION to create a function (when the function is called, it inserts a single row into the table or view named by the function but with "FN_" at front, where the first field is the context pointer and the others are the function parameters), and the COUNTER virtual table to make all 64-bit integers.
18:22:58 <zzo38> Obviously, if you try to access the COUNTER table without a constraint, it will take too long and have too many records.
18:25:03 <boily> still trying to SQLRPG?
18:25:49 <zzo38> I stopped temporarily, but will continue. Nevertheless, this can be used for that and other purposes; Z-Comp is also partially in SQL so it helps for that too (the other part of Z-Comp is written in JotaCode).
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18:28:20 <zzo38> JotaCode is the programming language used to program objects in ifMUD.
18:31:45 <FreeFull> I wonder what brainfuck with a relative jump instruction would be like
18:31:57 <Taneb> Pretty boring, I believe
18:33:38 <FreeFull> I wonder if it'd still be turing-complete
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18:37:29 <cpressey> relative jump with fixed offsets no, computed offsets yes hth
18:37:51 <cpressey> modulo some inability to compute good values without loops in the first place
18:38:13 <cpressey> which, yeah, you probably wouldn't be able to
18:39:29 <boily> you'd need variables, or introspection, or self-modifying code.
18:41:00 <fizzie> For any program where you always know where the pointer is, like (probably) the finite-tape unbounded-value TC proofs, you can probably just start the program with unary encodings of whatever numbers you need.
18:41:11 <cpressey> you might be able to do it with some sort of 'multiply one cell with another' instruction
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18:43:21 <cpressey> fizzie: that sort of goes in the direction of "putting the burden of Turing-completeness onto the input encoding" which... yeah
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18:44:39 <FreeFull> You'd still be able to take in arbitrary input with .
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18:45:56 <FreeFull> The jump offset would of course be whatever is in the current cell
18:47:53 <cpressey> FreeFull: but the problem is getting anything "productive" into that cell in the first place
18:49:25 <cpressey> you can use . and try to insist the input is always encoded in such a way that the jumps work out... but i think that falls apart
18:53:30 <oerjan> maybe if you have only bit input it will be easier?
18:54:18 <fizzie> I was thinking you might be able to do a boolfuck with a "skip next command" operation -- that's what the relative jump reduces to -- if you can just figure out a way to toggle 0/1.
18:54:38 <fizzie> (Not that I know if boolfuck with skip is good enough for anything.)
18:55:57 <FreeFull> How about if you also add a conditional trampoline
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18:56:10 <FreeFull> Although it would have to depend on a different cell
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18:57:23 <boily> are there any listed esolangs that use trampolines?
18:57:25 <cpressey> oerjan: i dealt with a similar issue to this in Larabee -- which is maybe not the best example because the jumps are weirder -- but I came to the (not rigorous) conclusion that if you depend on input to "get the jumps right", it's not Turing-complete. (e.g. compute Ackermann of this then tell me if it's larger than that; your input encoding has to "know" how many loops Ackermann's going to take, to get the compare jump right)
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18:58:10 <cpressey> fizzie: you could also do "skip next 10,000 commands" and just have a lot of padding when you don't need any... just observing
19:00:20 <cpressey> or 10.000 or 10_000 depending on your preferred thousands seperator of course
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19:05:28 <boily> cpressey: people use _?
19:06:29 <zzo38> I think SI uses spaces as thousands seperator
19:06:32 <fizzie> If the offset is relative to next instruction, and every odd cell is a 4 (for a fixed number of cells, you could set that up in advance), you can do J>J-->J<++>< to toggle the current cell from 0 to 2 or from 2 to 0, giving a kind of a boolfuck and "skip next 2". (Presumably extendable from 2 to any constant. Might be enough so that you can then programmatically do the setting-up as necessary, ...
19:07:15 <fizzie> (If current cell was 0, J>J-->J<++>< reduces to ><++><, and if it was 2 it reduces to --><.)
19:07:58 <FreeFull> boily: By trampoline I mean a funge style trampoline
19:12:22 <boily> FreeFull: that feels very snuspy.
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19:17:02 <Taneb> My fortress has a vampire...
19:17:23 <FreeFull> Lazily generating an infinite program
19:17:44 <cpressey> fizzie: that *might* work; the thing with Larabee is that there's a single global value that always affects a jump. here you'd have a set of "jump cells" and if you pre-set them all with sensible values from the input... yeah, maybe.
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19:19:11 <cpressey> FreeFull: copy- or quine-based languages like SMITH, Muriel, Underload...?
19:19:22 <boily> FreeFull: isn't that the one with a 2D brainfuck and /s and \s to flow everything around?
19:19:49 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving").
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19:20:45 <cpressey> literally stepped in just to say "hi"
19:20:54 <boily> at least we know he stil exists. in which form? that is unknown. but he exists.
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19:26:33 <kmc> the ghost of #esoteric past
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19:31:18 <boily> Taneb: let us not immediately jump to presumptuous conclusions. itidus may has become a very powerful lich for all we know here.
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19:32:59 <kmc> maybe itidus has uploaded to the internet
19:33:21 <HackEgo> calamari: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:33:42 <kmc> calamari vs metasepia
19:33:43 <AnotherTest> heh, itidus. That's been a while. I remember him.
19:34:33 <calamari> hi Chris, thanks for letting me know about this
19:34:58 <HackEgo> RnTz: RnTz: RnTz: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
19:35:22 <elliott> i just realised how incredibly 90s our stupid welcomes make the bot look
19:35:39 <Bike> is there a 90s for bots
19:36:33 <metasepia> calamari definition: squid used as food.
19:36:54 <cpressey> paging the sysop for chat is late-80s early-90s
19:37:37 <zzo38> Paging the sysop for chat is still supported in Synchronet
19:37:41 <AnotherTest> I'm really bad at graph wars. I think I might write my own version so I can be better
19:38:08 <AnotherTest> I'm thinking of a variant were you can lay out defense functions
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19:38:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: itidus came back for a minute
19:38:31 <zzo38> Also, some IRC servers might support the SUMMON command, to page someone working on the same computer as the IRC server.
19:38:39 <zzo38> (My own IRC server does.)
19:38:46 <AnotherTest> and when the other guy fires off his function, it composes with the defense function starting from the point of intersection
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19:40:17 <cpressey> unsurprisingly perhaps, HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe 404's
19:40:56 <elliott> cpressey: people keep bugging me to make the /WIKI/ link in the uppercase version work. i figure i should make it a fully functional version of the wiki with all the text uppercased
19:41:16 <cpressey> ELLIOTT: THAT WOULD BE GREAT, DO IT
19:41:20 <kmc> HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/wiki/Main_Page is fine though, natch
19:41:27 <kmc> but yes do that elliott
19:41:32 <Bike> for the full intercal experience
19:41:35 <kmc> T ELLIOTT YES DO THAT (WAS RE: COCKS)
19:41:45 <zzo38> elliott: No, make it read-only, except that you can push "edit" and so on which will redirect to the proper one.
19:41:53 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 PROGRAM-ID. GOBS-PROGRAM.
19:42:16 <elliott> kmc: the problem is that there are two ways to do it, and one way is way easier but lame
19:42:22 <elliott> so the best thing I can do is just procrastinate on it
19:42:41 <shachaf> elliott: The way easier one is a stylesheet?
19:43:05 <Bike> kmc: the * is a comment, right? fortran did the same thing and i hated it
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19:43:24 <elliott> that way it won't even copy in uppercase.
19:43:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I suppose that would work and can be fully functional.
19:43:36 <Bike> you can do that with sylesheets, huh
19:43:46 <elliott> Bike: yeah you can even do title case
19:43:47 <kmc> Bike: yeah
19:44:03 <kmc> also in 'modern' cobol you don't nee the line numbers and you can mix case and whatever else
19:44:03 <fizzie> Bike: Canonically I think it's C in the comment indicator position, though.
19:44:07 <kmc> but i wanted to be old skool
19:44:10 <cpressey> rotate every paragraph 47 degrees
19:44:15 <kmc> also this is the first and only cobol program i've written
19:44:32 <Bike> yeah i know, you just reminded me of this book of fortran programs i have
19:44:41 <kmc> Fortran 90 is also free-form
19:44:41 <Bike> none of which are even conformant to any standard and agh
19:44:48 <elliott> every ancient language turns into C with words instead of symbols
19:44:57 <Bike> modern fortran seems ok, shitty fortran 77 is not
19:44:57 <kmc> lool who needs standards
19:44:59 <elliott> except APL which turns into APL with ASCII instead of APL's character set
19:45:17 <kmc> what should i write my next gob's program in
19:45:19 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/TbbH?fortran <- Befunge-93 in FORTRAN.
19:45:40 <fizzie> (The computed goto is the best part of it.)
19:45:51 <Bike> kmc: i swear to god, the book was like "this should be reasonably easy to port" along with like a paragraph of explanation of this weird idiomatic shit explaining why there were numbers placed randomly all over the program (job commands for their system. apparently) and just, cocks
19:45:56 <kmc> considering: befunge, piet, lazy-k, fortran, algol-68, sed
19:46:06 <kmc> fizzie: nice!
19:46:18 <zzo38> kmc: Eventually do all of them.
19:46:33 <fizzie> kmc: The first version was all in lowercase, but it didn't really look like a FORTRAN program at all.
19:46:53 <zzo38> Not really every one turns into C, although there are many similaries. BLISS has some interesting features too; the macros and structures in BLISS are more powerful than those in C.
19:47:29 <mnoqy> what's the history of this gob's program
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19:47:39 <zzo38> (I also happen to think the dereferencing syntax in BLISS, which is unlike nearly any other programming language, is more logical than C and I prefer too)
19:47:47 <kmc> mnoqy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbnjusltDHk
19:47:50 <kmc> it's essentially a truth machine
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19:49:00 <zzo38> kmc: Why didn't you consider Verilog or APL?
19:49:09 <kmc> zzo38: i am considering
19:49:45 <Bike> APL's vectorization ought to make for very eficient Penuses
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19:51:20 <zzo38> It says "penus" is Latin words for provisions
19:51:29 <kmc> zzo38: what says?
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19:53:10 <kmc> duck penises are terrifying
19:53:37 <mnoqy> i've heard bad things about them
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19:56:05 <jsvine> Hey, all, getting ready for my "interview" with cpressey in a few minutes...
19:56:38 <kmc> sorry to say I won't be around for it in realtime
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19:57:45 <cpressey> jsvine: Whenever you're ready, I'm ready... to see if I regret not going with my initial impulse (which was, tbh, "Mainstream media? Sorry, I don't grant interviews with non-entities.")
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19:58:51 <mnoqy> `relcome simmarine_
19:58:54 <HackEgo> simmarine_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:59:25 <jsvine> cpressey: Do you enjoy long walks on the beach?
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19:59:59 <cpressey> jsvine: Oh, you're good. Well -- I used to, but I'm not currently near a beach. I do enjoy long walks, though.
20:00:21 <jsvine> cpressey: Where do you live now?
20:01:20 <zzo38> Hello, jsvine, and whoever else
20:01:29 <cpressey> jsvine: I'm somewhere in Cornwall, UK. Nearer to the moor than the coast, though. So, I enjoy long walks on the moor.
20:02:14 <jsvine> cpressey: Is Cornwall anywhere near Hexham?
20:02:14 <boily> cpressey: aurgh. I wrote cornwall, ON in my file.
20:03:25 <cpressey> jsvine: It's nearER than Chicago, Seattle, Vancouver, or Winnipeg. But I don't think I'd want to walk there from here.
20:03:48 <Taneb> jsvine, Cornwall is about as far away from Hexham as it is possible to get without leaving England
20:03:49 <jsvine> cpressey: In any case, how'd you first get into esolangs?
20:04:24 <jsvine> Taneb: ah, gotcha, thanks. I suppose I could've just Googled that, but I was hoping for a more punny answer.
20:05:23 <Taneb> jsvine, that's kind of like saying, "Is Maine anywhere near Los Angeles?"
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20:07:18 <cpressey> jsvine: Back in the early 90's, a friend of mine (sysop of another BBS in Winnipeg) exposed me to Forth, and I realized that writing your own programming language was not impossible. And then, through a BBS file-sharing network (Aminet, it's still around), I discovered Wouter van Oortmersen's FALSE and Urban Mueller's brainfuck languages, and I realized that it could also be weird (and I've always liked weird.) And then...
20:08:11 -!- calamari has joined.
20:08:12 <cpressey> jsvine: ...another sysop friend made a fateful typo in chat (he typed "befunge" instead of "before") and I decided I had to design a language with that name. I did, and put it on my BBS.
20:08:42 <jsvine> cpressey: Did the name influence the design of the language at all?
20:09:34 <Taneb> jsvine, I want to inform you that this interview is being filmed
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20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> omg i can't believe i missed the start of the interview
20:10:28 <cpressey> jsvine: Well -- there's an ancient aphorism about how "I have the perfect name for a programming language, now I only need to design it" (I don't have the exact quote handy.) But, in truth, I went through several designs before I thought of the one that became Befunge. So the relationship between the name and the language is maybe an illusion, or maybe it's just hard to describe.
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20:11:22 <cpressey> (I actually found some notes on Befunge predecessors a while back, maybe I'll publish them sometime)
20:11:34 <jsvine> cpressey: Hm, interesting. How did the earlier designs differ from the final Befunge?
20:11:57 <elliott> ("The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language." -- Donald Knuth)
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20:12:44 <jsvine> elliott: thanks, that's a great quotation
20:13:05 <quintopia> internet is weird. i get better reception here in the woods than i did in the house in town.
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20:13:45 <cpressey> jsvine: Well, they weren't as workable. One was sort of an "object-oriented assembly" (this was when OO was still pretty new.) At least, they paled in comparison to having this inspiration (while I was on a walk, not a long one, but a walk) where I kind of saw a BASIC program, except instead of GOTO's, it had arrows connecting bits of the program together. (Probably inspired a bit by flowcharts and this one multimedia program called "AmigaVision".)
20:16:07 <cpressey> That, plus what I knew about how to write a Forth-like RPN interpreter, turned fairly quickly into Befunge.
20:16:32 <jsvine> cpressey: Ah, interesting. I apologize if this information is already easily available, but do you have a copy of the first working Befunge program?
20:17:20 <boily> if you're exploring befunge's history, maybe a copy of Hunt the Wumpus would be interesting?
20:18:47 <jsvine> boily: I'm not familiar with HtW. Could you explain?
20:18:48 * quintopia bets he drew the first one on paper before the language was even implemented
20:19:02 <cpressey> jsvine: I don't know which was the first one exactly, but in https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/tree/master/eg the ones that say 'xx/yy/93' (where xx and yy are guesses) are the earliest.
20:20:25 <elliott> (wrt boily, https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/blob/master/eg/wumpus.bf implements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_the_Wumpus)
20:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> jsvine, IIRC befunge was originally described as practical in the sense that you could plausibly write hunt the wumpus in it.
20:21:17 <jsvine> elliott & Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I get it! Wild.
20:21:49 <jsvine> Is that the most impressive (defined however you want) Befunge program? Or are there crazier ones?
20:22:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has to be all " pow!" and he was suddenly i rose, put up her mouth, pulled down by the gold saucer... think his name was close ever, and yet, at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he went on, " the conclusion is, then thou, the greatest soldier, de. she wanna be friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his sub
20:22:44 <elliott> probably hunt the wumpus is the most elaborate befunge-93 program?
20:22:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive) of living. these he does to lady vanity; but we have no other comfort, not by the shortest fnord abate the nuisance, they pull this off i think i turning is stupid. stop doing nothing but wondering if any current scheme system has the best design; however, is that
20:22:55 <elliott> fungot is befunge-98, quite a different language
20:22:55 <fungot> elliott: and is one of the other qubits should stay. you, in the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
20:23:35 <cpressey> Note that all I've said so far pre-dates esolang proper. It wasn't until I got on the WWW, and make a Befunge web page, and that page was selected as "Geek Site of the Day" in 1996, that a significant number of people knew of the existence (for some value of significant) and that people (in this case Wim Rjinders) dared undertake programs this complex in it.
20:24:12 <jsvine> So the early Befunge days were all on BBS?
20:24:40 <jsvine> And what programs did Wim dare to undertake?
20:24:43 <cpressey> jsvine: Yes. So, all the people listed in the credits at the bottom of the Befunge-93 documentation lived in the same city as me (Winnipeg) at the time.
20:25:34 <cpressey> jsvine: Wim did Hunt the Wumpus and, I think, a Befunge interpreter in Befunge (well, a subset of Befunge, in Befunge). Dmitry did some impressive ones too, like a Mandelbrot generator.
20:25:43 <zzo38> Are you going to post the file on the X-BIT BBS?
20:27:13 <cpressey> http://wimrijnders.nl/other/befunge.html <-- Wim's resurrected page, some out-of-date information there, but actually a kind of nice snapshot of a time when the mailing list was transitioning from "about Befunge" to "about Esolang".
20:27:35 <cpressey> zzo38: I don't have an account, actually, I don't even know what that is... but feel free to post it there yourself :)
20:28:27 <zzo38> (Hint: It is x-bit.org port 23, in case you are wondering what it is)
20:28:53 <jsvine> Wim's mention of Cat's Eye raises a question I've been wondering about: What *is* Cat's Eye Technologies? Just a collective name for your esolang projects? Or something else?
20:30:28 <cpressey> jsvine: In the beginning, it was my "DBA" name ("Doing Business As", aka "Trading As" in the UK) for my freelance work. After I moved, I never really bothered to register it again, so it became sort of an un-official non-organization, a brand name for distributing esolangs and other miscellany under (it's still just me, though.)
20:31:28 <jsvine> cpressey: Gotcha. Which raises another question, re. your freelance. What sort of paid work do you do for a living? I assume designing esolangs isn't super lucrative?
20:32:14 <quintopia> everyone and their brother wants to buy a colorForth machine.
20:33:23 <cpressey> jsvine: You're absolutely right that it's kind of hard to make any money on esolangs. My day job (whether freelance or corporate at any given time in my life) is as a computer programmer, or software developer, or software engineer (depending on what decade it is.)
20:34:41 <jsvine> cpressey: What type of work is it this decade?
20:34:47 <cpressey> (By "kind of hard" I don't mean to imply I've ever actually *tried* to make money on them, by the way.)
20:35:25 <olsner> hmm, has anyone tried?
20:35:26 <jsvine> (Has anyone, to anyone here's knowledge, every made money from esolang design or use?)
20:35:49 <jsvine> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, what's the story behind that?
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> although i got the profit part from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#1991
20:37:20 <jsvine> (Ward's page says "Biota was packaged and sold publicly online in 1991." Anyone know what he might mean by that? If not, I can try getting in touch with him.)
20:37:45 <Bike> oh hey, smalltalk. neat.
20:37:46 <cpressey> jsvine: I could go on about "software engineering", but that's what it is, certainly if continually-running servers are involved (IMO "software engineer" is more like "ship's engineer" than "professional engineer": keeping it going is as important (maybe more important) than designing and documenting it.)
20:38:01 <elliott> re biota, possibly at http://c2.com/ (also home of the first wiki)
20:38:16 <cpressey> Freelance stuff tends to be more on the software development side, though.
20:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, the esolangs page links to his article on it but he doesn't give much in the way of detail
20:38:47 <jsvine> cpressey: gotcha, thanks. So is the "software engineering" part not freelance?
20:39:17 <cpressey> jsvine: (takes sip of water) I thought this was going to be about esolangs...?
20:39:43 <calamari> befunge was a lang that inspired a lot of ohers. brainfuck was another
20:40:05 <cpressey> Or, to be less abrasive, I think we may be straying from the topic.
20:40:36 <jsvine> Yep, we are. But the money question interests me because of the inherent non-practical aspects of esolangs.
20:41:18 <jsvine> Though I suppose lots of hobbies are non-practical. Why do crosswords? Why build sculptures out of toothpicks?
20:42:20 <cpressey> OK, it boils down to, generally, if you want someone to babysit the software they write for you (what I'm calling "engineering"), you hire them full-time.
20:42:44 <jsvine> The potential audience for your creations, though, seem purposely limited. What draws you to creating things that likely only a handful of people will be able to appreciate?
20:42:47 <quintopia> well, almost out of battery. guess i'll just have to read the logs.
20:43:14 <calamari> I designedand used esolangs as a way to challenge my programming preconceptions and stretch my abilities
20:43:19 <cpressey> In the past, I've compared esolang to ham radio. It's an amateur activity (not in the sense of "unprofessional", but in the sense that it exists outside the professional sphere.)
20:43:42 <zzo38> cpressey: I suppose that could be some kind of way.
20:43:52 <zzo38> I have once seen esolang discussed in Linux Journal, I think.
20:44:28 <calamari> having to think about a problem in a new way.. limitations that help with creativity
20:44:40 <boily> jsvine: esolanging has some very passionate enthusiasts, with people they can relate to. (or not. the Hexham singularity hasn't happened yet.)
20:44:58 <olsner> what's the hexham singularity?
20:45:08 <boily> olsner: when they'll meet in person.
20:45:13 <jsvine> What, would you (or anyone else here) say are the major programming preconceptions that esolangs challenge?
20:45:23 <cpressey> Hams are actually forbidden from making money on what they do as a ham, as I understand it. Esolangers aren't forbidden, of course, but since it's all about source code, and about exploring interesting ways of programming, it's not really feasible. Open-source makes much more sense; in fact a lot of it is full-on public domain.
20:45:44 <jsvine> The syntax discussion you all had yesterday seemed to touch on one.
20:45:48 <zzo38> jsvine: Nearly all of them.
20:46:00 <jsvine> zzo38: Most revelatory to you?
20:46:11 <nooodl_> syntax is the most obvious one
20:46:35 <cpressey> Maybe time for another aphorism: "Any language which doesn't affect the way you think about programming isn't worth learning." (again, not an exact quote.)
20:46:39 <zzo38> jsvine: Unfortunately I don't know, but INTERCAL and Prehistory of esoteric programming are some, I guess.
20:47:00 <boily> jsvine: structured programming is nearly always thrown out of the window. for me, the main point when exploring a language is: what few tools does it provides, and how can I assemble them. if the lang makes me reflect on very basic things, like underload and arithmetic, then it's a success.
20:47:35 <zzo38> And sometimes structured programming is thrown out of the door instead.
20:48:02 <jsvine> "structured programming is nearly always thrown out of the window" <- I'm not sure I understand this, but it sounds interesting. Could you elaborate?
20:48:59 <cpressey> jsvine: oh, I missed your "The potential audience" question. I think it's because, in an amateur activity, I'm going to do what interests *me*; and in designing a new language I, personally, learn a lot from it. I don't usually know entirely how it will play out until it's implemented. If other people are also interested, well, that's a bonus.
20:49:02 <boily> jsvine: with modern mainstream languages, emphasis is put on structure, answering "how can we build large projects with multiple contributors and maintainers?". discipline is very important, and is manifested through commonplace patterns.
20:49:24 <boily> jsvine: esolangs go completely opposite to that: what can we abandon, and still have some working program at the end.
20:49:27 <zzo38> cpressey: That is mostly same to me, I think
20:49:39 <zzo38> boily: Yes, that is a very good description of it.
20:50:05 <jsvine> boily: yes, that's fascinating, and very clear
20:50:33 <boily> INTERCAL mocks the patterns of the day (and still some that came after).
20:50:35 <cpressey> zzo38: there's a quote from the comedian Bruce McCulloch which goes something like, "I think my work reaches the people it needs to reach." I doubt I'll be able to find the real version of that quote though.
20:51:10 <jsvine> It seems like mainstream programming is trending toward "scalability," whether in the human or infrastructural sense, and esolangs say "Who cares?"
20:51:29 <boily> jsvine: that's it.
20:51:58 <zzo38> Wikipedia also mentions Dada Engine and rmutt in its esolangs article, although FurryScript is probably far more unusual.
20:52:02 <jsvine> boily & co.: If INTERCAL mocks the patterns of the day, what do today's esolangs mock? (and which esolangs do the best mocking?)
20:53:04 <boily> jsvine: hmm... I'd say glass is quite good. OOP to the very, very extreme.
20:53:06 <jsvine> (FYI, I have to head to a meeting in 7 minutes. But I'll be around a bit later today, and tomorrow, to continue chatting, as long as I haven't overstayed my welcome.)
20:53:27 <zzo38> Duff (the same guy who Duff's device is named after) wrote an article about prehistory of esoteric programming, mentioning such as P'', TECO, APL, and L6.
20:53:29 <jsvine> boily: thanks, I'll take a look at glass.
20:53:37 <boily> jsvine: oh! just one more thing!
20:53:44 <cpressey> jsvine: Not at all, I think we've enjoyed having you here. I certainly have.
20:54:01 <calamari> I'm not sure that esolangs are al trying to mock. some are intended to be difficult, some are trying to be different or unusual, some are meant as a joke
20:54:02 <jsvine> zzo38: I'd definitely be interested to read that. Do you have a link?
20:54:08 <boily> jsvine: the Full Version of the The Question: what are your approximate geographic coördinates, and body weigh?
20:54:12 <cpressey> jsvine: As for what it mocks, I'd include "your assumption that you were such a hotshot rockstar ninja developer, cretin."
20:54:19 <zzo38> jsvine: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
20:55:06 <jsvine> calamari: makes sense, thanks
20:55:38 <cpressey> (for some reason we call it "body weigh" here on #esoteric, and I still don't know why)
20:55:54 <boily> (cpressey: stupid typo.)
20:56:16 <calamari> malbolge is one that sticks out to me as trying to be difficult
20:56:22 <cpressey> but we (not just you) ALWAYS seem to make it; i think we should keep it
20:56:36 <jsvine> boily: I'm in New York, NY and weigh more than an iPhone
20:56:39 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
20:56:46 <jsvine> I'll leave you with this:
20:56:48 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
20:57:04 <jsvine> (Or maybe the point is not to care whether it works?)
20:57:42 <cpressey> Having it work is good, if that was your goal. If not, feel free to change your goal midstream :)
21:00:21 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ok i *think* so long as i unplug my laptop i can watch the iplayer live
21:02:02 <cpressey> correct capitalization really wears one out
21:02:15 <zzo38> cpressey: Have you (specifically) seen Dada Engine, rmutt, and FurryScript?
21:03:02 <cpressey> zzo38: a) no b) no c) i read the php source code for FurryScript but didn't try it (tbh in part because it's php)
21:04:38 <zzo38> cpressey: I may rewrite it in C another day, in order to improve the speed, but I didn't by now. Dada Engine and rmutt are programs for similar things; both were mentioned on the Wikipedia article about esoteric programming (although FurryScript was written entirely independently of these).
21:06:28 <zzo38> And of those count as esolangs, FurryScript probably does too since it happens to be far more unusual in its functioning.
21:12:42 <cpressey> man, you know what i just realized? i didn't swear *once*. someone, slap me on the wrist.
21:14:57 <elliott> cpressey: were you on your second whiskey?
21:16:46 <cpressey> elliott: that one i can at least lie about if it's not true
21:16:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Note that it can also run remotely. (It seems that rmutt is supposed to do that too, but it doesn't.)
21:18:57 <cpressey> i remember now why i never visit the wikipedia page for esoteric programming languages
21:20:16 <cpressey> because it's terrible and (in some sense) it's MY fault
21:21:09 <cpressey> maybe i'll just donate to wikipedia to assuage my guilt for not wanting to edit it instead
21:21:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: maybe "terrible" is a strong word, but it's all... wikipediay.
21:21:56 <zzo38> Well, if you have money, you certainly can do if you like to do so, please!! If you don't want to edit it, that is OK, since someone else might do so.
21:22:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:22:36 <elliott> ais523: you missed all the fun
21:22:43 <ais523> we have logs, don't we?
21:22:55 <elliott> i think you will find you still missed it.
21:23:13 <cpressey> calamari: i mean it's my fault for not editing it to be less bad
21:24:05 <cpressey> ais523: no i ate all the logs om nom nom
21:24:41 <cpressey> but yeah, where IS Gregor these days?
21:24:48 <ais523> hmm… sometimes I suspect that the job of a journalist is to learn enough about a subject to give a convincing-looking but useless summary that pulls on a few human interest points
21:24:51 <HackEgo> 2013-05-24 02:51:47: <Gregor> How does it compare to SONiVOX?
21:24:58 <Gregor> Well I haven't fallen of the face of the Earth, yeesh.
21:25:10 <zzo38> ais523: O, that's what it is? Well, maybe that is what it is.
21:25:15 <cpressey> oh gee, maybe we should HAVE MENTIONED YOUR NICK AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST THREE DAYS
21:25:40 <zzo38> Do you agree/disagree with what is written here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Astronomical_symbols#Zodiac_Symbols
21:25:57 <ais523> cpressey: you know it's hard to predict zzo38's actions
21:26:04 <Gregor> My xchat notification was notificating.
21:26:27 <elliott> Gregor: you just missed possibly the only exciting thing to ever happen in the history of #esoteric
21:26:30 <calamari> gregor: I should write a copycat page to yours called "choose my pony socks"
21:27:03 <cpressey> ais523: I was referring to Gregor's nick, just to be clear
21:27:07 <zzo38> You can reach the logs, at least.
21:27:08 <cpressey> fun fact: Gregor's nick happens to be "Gregor"
21:27:12 <boily> will we get t-shirts featuring the interview's abstract?
21:27:12 <calamari> (since I now have 37 pair and I have trouble deciding)
21:27:20 <ais523> cpressey: yeah, I didn't notice for a while
21:27:35 <olsner> calamari: you should write a page for choosing Gregor's pony socks instead
21:28:15 <cpressey> ais523: fwiw, he did seem to learn smth about the subject, or, well, read to the end of the interview. and he may be back, presumably for more informal research like he did yesterday.
21:28:18 <ais523> elliott: is that Knuth quote an actual Knuth quote?
21:28:30 <ais523> it could be, but I don't know it is
21:28:35 <ais523> cpressey: yeah, I'm reading it
21:28:49 <olsner> calamari: if you don't tell him about the results of the votes, it doesn't matter who has or hasn't socks
21:29:34 <calamari> olsner: how does all this help me choose my socks, again?
21:30:35 <olsner> calamari: choosing your socks seems inconvenient since those might not be near Gregor at the time he needs to wear them
21:30:53 <calamari> I mean I open my drawer, and see all the happy ponies and I can't choose. Just have to blindly pick one
21:30:55 <ais523> hmm, that was quite a short interview
21:30:55 <olsner> or maybe I'm just thinking too much about the practical issues
21:31:19 <zzo38> calamari: Unless you want to wear two different socks, you should not blindly pick the second one too.
21:32:02 <elliott> ais523: google knows the answer
21:32:17 <ais523> zzo38: it's rare for people to not wear two different socks, if they're wearing two socks at all
21:32:21 <ais523> it's hard to put the same sock on both feet
21:32:36 <zzo38> I mean two different colors of socks
21:33:09 <boily> time to sublty disappear.
21:33:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:33:12 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:33:57 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/images/xyzzy/socks.jpg
21:34:45 <cpressey> i think that took me all of six minutes a few days ago
21:37:25 <cpressey> (i got a low-end drawing tablet and am slowly rediscovering how much i suck at visual art, not really having drawn anything except ILLGOL since high school)
21:37:46 -!- simmarine_ has changed nick to simmarine.
21:39:11 <elliott> cpressey: i am disappointed that catseye.tc does not have a fancy custom 404 page
21:39:17 <elliott> thought i should register this complaint with you
21:40:13 <cpressey> yeah, looks like it's custom, but not fancy. ironically, i was really excited about making a fancy 404 handler that tried to help you find what you were looking for. once.
21:40:34 <cpressey> i should at least put some text or a link on it i guess
21:41:31 <elliott> ais523: so did you fail to shorten messages on the plane of fire "i hear things"
21:41:44 <elliott> cpressey: by custom, I mean it seems to be some standard web host one because I've seen it on a ton of sites
21:41:54 <ais523> elliott: it's not so much that I've failed, just that I have not yet succeeded
21:42:29 <cpressey> elliott: really? what url? i get the custom one, but maybe it's not configured entire proper
21:42:51 <elliott> cpressey: oh, it was http://catseye.tc/images/xyzzy/. maybe it's different because it's not part of the normal site
21:42:51 <cpressey> ohhh you were trying to list the directory WERENTCHA
21:43:08 <cpressey> yeah, there's probably... a reason
21:44:00 -!- simmarine has left ("Leaving").
21:49:01 <calamari> I had a lot of trouble with my tablet. I actually went back to a mouse and had more success
21:49:15 <ais523> cpressey: the pastebin equivalent on my server (where I put things to post to people) is /robots.txted out
21:49:30 <ais523> except it turns out that duckduckgo will list it as being potentially interesting anyway just based on incoming links
21:49:36 <ais523> even though it's not allowed to (and doesn't) visit the page itself
21:49:42 <calamari> if I were more persistent I'm sure the tablet would win out tho
21:49:42 <ais523> so it's even recommending nonexistent pages there
21:50:33 <zzo38> Once I have found files that were prohibited by /robots.txt sort of by accident; I was trying to make a backup of a few files using wget (and succeeded), but I noticed it also downloaded robots.txt, and then I found secret files using that.
21:51:24 <cpressey> calamari: mine's definitely quirky sometimes, but usable... it does pressure (but not tilt or anything) but its button is semi-useless. the brand is "Trust" but i forget the model # offhand
21:51:52 <cpressey> might be better to use pencil/ink/etc on actual real paper and scan it in, but this is more novel to me
21:52:17 <cpressey> ais523: the internet is truly a weird and wonderful whirlpool of ________ [finish this alliteration]
21:53:59 <cpressey> zzo38: yeah, i think i've noticed that with a robots.txt at some point too -- a bit ironic. "don't look at these!" "oh?? what are those??
21:54:25 <ais523> cpressey: my robots.txt is pretty much "this isn't useful for a search engine to show in its results"
21:54:55 <cpressey> maybe i should host a humans.txt as an easter egg of sorts
21:56:45 <ais523> listing which pages should only be read by automated bots?
21:56:55 <ais523> /dev/null has one of those
21:57:07 <zzo38> No, the humans.txt file is used to just mention miscellaneous information
21:57:09 <ais523> it's a set of pages that collectively contain an infinite number of fake email addresses
21:57:18 <zzo38> To tell you about the server
21:57:21 <ais523> the idea is to waste spambots' time
21:58:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:59:02 <cpressey> ais523: by /dev/null do you mean the path /dev/null on your http server??
21:59:44 <cpressey> i'm a bit confused, i want to call what you're talking about a "honeypot", but i don't think that's exactly the right term, but i am too lazy to ask the internet
22:00:17 <calamari> cpressey: mine is a wacom pen, so its a good tablet, but the user is not skillful ;)
22:01:02 <ais523> cpressey: I mean a website
22:01:07 <ais523> best known for hosting a tournament
22:01:14 <ais523> err, a NetHack tournament
22:01:17 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spamtrap
22:01:44 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:01:50 <cpressey> calamari: it does take a bit of practice "drawing via CCTV"
22:02:46 <cpressey> but undo makes up for it, oh the undo, oh the undo, i am so spoiled, DRAWING IS LIKE CODING hack debug hack debug hack debug
22:02:49 <calamari> yeah unless you want to drop some major cash
22:04:15 <cpressey> oh jeez, that is kinda droolworthy
22:06:36 <calamari> however when I see amazing art drawn with a mouse, I realize the equipment is not the most important thing, by far
22:08:46 <cpressey> true. given how much i use undo and otherwise treat it as a trial-and-error activity, i might be just as well off with a mouse. but sometimes the pen seems faster (for some reason i like playing mahjohngg with it)
22:08:59 -!- conehead has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:07 <zzo38> How can you play mahjong with it?
22:10:12 -!- conehead has joined.
22:11:31 <cpressey> zzo38: it acts pretty much like a mouse, to the system. certain programs (like GIMP) can get the extra information it provides (pressure).
22:12:37 <cpressey> i actually got it partly because i wanted to experiment with using pressure as an input parameter for some application that's *not* drawing (like, maybe music or something), but haven't got around to searching for the libs etc i'd need to read that
22:13:33 <cpressey> the protocol is apparently called WALTOP, fwiw
22:14:43 <cpressey> ugh, would probably have to look at gimp or inkscape sources to figure out how to use it though i think
22:14:58 <elliott> cpressey: esolang based on tablets
22:15:02 <elliott> "i provide the inspiration"
22:16:10 <cpressey> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/linuxwacom/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:17:14 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:31 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
22:17:35 <elliott> cpressey: all i ask for in return is royalties
22:17:56 * calamari needs to write an esolang for cash
22:20:14 <calamari> step 1. write esolang, step 2. ???, step 3. PROFIT
22:20:33 <cpressey> if only we could BUSK with these things
22:20:37 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:20:59 <Bike> don't you need a permit for that now
22:21:27 <cpressey> depends on the place, but most places, yeah
22:22:33 <cpressey> "yeah, i'd like to get a permit to livecode academic mathematical functions in brainfuck in front of people at Paddington station please"
22:23:21 <cpressey> "oh, well, you know, the usual, calculate pi, the Ackermann function, Gob's program, and the like"
22:23:55 <cpressey> "no, it's mainly just plus and minus signs and left and right arrows. oh, and sometimes full stop and comma"
22:24:40 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:25:13 <SgeoN1> Reading the REBOL 3 guide. Reminds me a bit of Tcl and Factor.
22:26:33 <cpressey> not entirely sure what i mean by that
22:28:21 <cpressey> kind of what i mean by that is -- it's existed since the Amiga days and it's now been open-source for... almost six months!
22:30:11 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:32:46 <SgeoN1> REBOL 3 is still in alpha. As far as I'm aware, its the first version that has documentation suitable for understanding why people think it's interesting
22:34:24 <cpressey> FreeFull: i remember hearing about it when i still owned an Amiga 500
22:40:04 <cpressey> SgeoN1: you should write a Deadfish interpreter in REBOL!
22:44:22 <cpressey> zzo38: do you know any mathematical theorems about mahjong (solitaire)? there is definitely something algebraical about it (plus an element of chance because you can't see all the tiles. i assume it was a slightly different game before computers let you undo moves. actually i kind of wonder, did people get someone else to build the initial structure for them, so they wouldn't have a chance of remembering which tiles were under which)
22:45:21 <cpressey> rewrite system invisible maze get stuck dead end
22:45:43 <cpressey> sorry, i'm probably still a little manic from the interview
22:45:54 <elliott> it's ok. we're here for you in this difficult time
22:47:11 <zzo38> cpressey: About mahjong solitaire I don't know any.
22:47:16 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/hugs/ hth
22:47:21 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
22:47:29 <elliott> haskell, #1 supplier of hugs
22:47:37 <shachaf> hugs, #2 supplier of haskell
22:47:57 <zzo38> But I do know how the probabilities work in four-players mahjong.
22:48:54 -!- elieser224 has joined.
22:49:22 <cpressey> http://www.rebol.com/what-rebol.html i love it when they have a manifesto
22:49:23 -!- elieser224 has left.
22:50:13 <elliott> ok what is with elieser224 joining and then /parting minutes later
22:50:17 <elliott> it's been going on for years
22:51:43 <ion> % apt-cache search rebol
22:52:00 <lambdabot> ndm says: I was browsing through the Yhc standard libraries, as one does on the weekend, and was drawn to Yhc's sort function.
22:52:21 <lambdabot> Eduard_Munteanu says: [In response to "GHC can go jump out a window" and "GHC has already jumped out a window and flied and left you behind"] Yes, GHC even implements optimizations such as defenestrat
22:53:10 <ion> Huh. lambdabot has some arbitrary length limit instead of following the IRC command length limit (in which the length of the PRIVMSG target name matters)?
22:53:32 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
22:53:34 <ion> This totally blew my mind, dude.
22:53:59 <lambdabot> JonathanShapiro says: We are now preparing a more sensible surface syntax, whereupon we will receive rotten egg and tomato complaints from the LISP community.
22:54:24 <ion> So there’s a specific channel name length at which lambdabot starts losing parts of long messages it sends?
22:54:35 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: Couldn't match kind `?? -> ? -> *' against `(* -> *) -> * -> *'
22:54:37 <shachaf> Isn't there a limit on channel name length?
22:54:45 <shachaf> Perhaps lambdabot's cutoff is conservative.
22:54:59 <ion> Yeah, different networks have different limits.
22:55:34 <cpressey> ais523: did you really memorize the numbers of those syntax quotes?
22:55:53 <ais523> I looked them up just before quoting them in channel
22:56:03 <shachaf> Quote numbers change all the time.
22:56:27 <shachaf> Is Mr. Svine in the quote database yet?
22:58:48 <cpressey> ais523: that reassures me that you are, in fact, human. probably.
22:59:15 <shachaf> ais523 is one of the more human people in this channel.
22:59:55 <cpressey> that is true, for a certain meaning of "human".
23:02:26 <cpressey> SgeoN1: seriously if you do a deadfish in REBOL i'll do one in Icon
23:02:38 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:02:45 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is a good reason not to memorize them too much. However, I think better would be to not change the numbers.
23:03:44 <shachaf> zzo38: I know! elliott started writing a new quote database that doesn't change numbers.
23:03:55 <shachaf> Or maybe he said he started writing it to stop me from writing it.
23:04:21 <zzo38> One way to don't change the numbers, is to omit the delete command, and instead make the "supress" command.
23:05:13 <shachaf> That is indeed a way to don't change the numbers.
23:07:06 <zzo38> Such a thing as that can be done easily enough in SQL, if you want to use SQL to make it.
23:07:24 <shachaf> What if I don't want to use SQL?
23:08:37 -!- elieser2241 has joined.
23:08:55 <zzo38> Then do it a different way, although depending on what you do use, it might or might not be done easily or better.
23:08:57 -!- elieser2241 has left.
23:09:23 <shachaf> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZzoWiki
23:09:35 <shachaf> I kind of want to see ZzoWiki.
23:10:02 <Bike> "No image support (this is so others won't place pornography in your article)" really
23:11:08 <ais523> what about ASCII art pornography?
23:12:40 <zzo38> ais523: Well, I suppose you can do that if you want to, but you still shouldn't place it on other people's article. Of course you can also link to whatever file you want.
23:12:52 <zzo38> ZzoWiki is currently broken; you can't see it now.
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23:31:44 <Sgeo> ....Amiga was a general-purpose PC?
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23:38:07 <elliott> Sgeo: as opposed to... what
23:38:22 <Bike> made up to scare children
23:38:23 <Sgeo> A gaming console
23:40:04 <shachaf> maybe a lowercase owl raising an eyebrow..........................................
23:42:29 <Sgeo> kmc, http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/concepts/modules-loading.html#section-7
23:42:45 <Sgeo> Including SHA-1 of the module in the header when you want to download them from the Internet...
23:43:52 <Sgeo> I have no idea
23:44:14 <Sgeo> But that section reminded me of the concerns kmc has with Planet Racket
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23:44:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, the Amiga was a general-purpose and high end computer.
23:44:56 <pikhq> Though there was, like, the Amiga CD32.
23:45:03 <pikhq> (consolized Amiga)
23:46:35 <Sgeo> #rebol is practically empty
23:46:40 <Sgeo> I wanted to ask how it compares to Tcl
23:47:15 <elliott> please don't join #lang1 to ask "lang1 vs. lang2" questions. it is trolling
23:47:34 <Sgeo> "encloak is a low strength encryption method that can be useful for hiding passwords and other such values. It is not a replacement for AES or Blowfish, but works for noncritical data.
23:47:34 <Sgeo> Do not use it for top secret information!"
23:47:48 <Sgeo> I wish I knew what the algorithm IS, not just that it's low strength
23:48:29 <Bike> elliott: how does haskell compare to python
23:48:37 <elliott> > compare "haskell" "python"
23:48:53 <shachaf> hey #esoteric, how do eso langs compare to noneso langs
23:49:32 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.rebol.org/ml-display-thread.r?m=rmlHYHQ proprietary and probably dumb
23:54:42 <Sgeo> "To test R3, you will need:
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23:54:48 <Sgeo> "At least 1 MB of disk space and 10 MB of main memory. (We just had to say that.)
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23:59:09 <pikhq> shachaf: Favorably. Non-eso langs are t3h dumbs
23:59:17 <pikhq> Who needs money anyways.
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00:42:56 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess REBEL's compose is effectively quasiquoting?
00:43:07 <Bike> and with a rebol yell
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01:07:33 <Sgeo> I think I really like the refinements thing
01:07:46 <Sgeo> Although it bears some similarities to keyword arguments in Racket or CL
01:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <cpressey> jsvine: Oh, you're good. Well -- I used to, but I'm not currently near a beach. I do enjoy long walks, though.
01:11:04 <Sgeo> "When I try to run REBOL on my Mac68K, it says I don't have enough memory. Why?"
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01:15:44 <Sgeo> Found a bug in REBOL 3
01:15:49 <Sgeo> Unfortunately, I can't access chat
01:17:16 <Bike> what kind of uncreative question is that
01:17:27 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't start writing a deadfish interpreter yet
01:17:45 <Phantom_Hoover> stop trying to learn every fucking language on the planet!
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01:18:15 <mnoqy> for what values of learn are we talking
01:19:21 <mnoqy> oh that biblical sense
01:19:36 <mnoqy> hm i dont think sgeo actually learns his languages that much?
01:19:51 <elliott> are there other biblical senses of learn
01:19:56 <Bike> does looking at a language constitute learning
01:20:02 <elliott> Sgeo: btw you missed the thingy
01:20:16 <mnoqy> see i had a good thing written up but then ph said a thing and i shortened it so i could respond quicker
01:20:25 <mnoqy> "eg im sure sgeos written a line of haskell but has he truly learned it? i put forward the claim that sgeo is merely practicing language tourism"
01:20:49 <Sgeo> elliott, I saw in the logs
01:20:59 <Bike> is the biblical sense of looking getting burned alive by a fire tornado?
01:23:29 <mnoqy> does anyone, truly
01:24:54 <zzo38> I have read the Bible, but it doesn't seem to help to answer your question.
01:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> do you even know what know means in the biblical sense
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01:34:53 <tswett> Coq abuse of the day: let's add axioms stating that every Type is a probability distribution!
01:38:40 <tswett> And then, uhh... no, don't do that at all.
01:38:52 <tswett> Instead, just add axioms stating that every Prop has a probability, and they obey the laws of probability theory.
01:39:18 <Sgeo> I ... think REBOL answers one of the things I dislike about Tcl.
01:40:11 <tswett> I wonder if you could do anything interesting with that. I would think that there would exist no (Prop, real number) pair, with the real number strictly between 0 and 1, such that you can prove that the probability of Prop is that number.
01:40:16 <tswett> Simply because that would be weird.
01:40:35 <tswett> Good thing I'm not talking about REBOL and Tcl, then.
01:40:46 <Sgeo> mnoqy, the compose function effectively acts as a quasiquoting mechanism
01:41:46 <Sgeo> So if you have a function that's accepting a block of literal values, you can use compose to easily dynamically make the data to be passed into it
01:42:03 <Sgeo> mnoqy, by having absolutely nothing to do with what a sane functional programmer would consider composing. The name does suck.
01:42:08 <Sgeo> http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/functions/compose.html
01:43:18 <mnoqy> yeah i was thinking function composition
01:43:40 <Sgeo> Hmm, it's not quite adequate, though. I think. It does an automatic splicing thing, but automatic splicing skeeves me out. But disabling it leaves you with no form of splicing
01:43:49 <Bike> wow what does that have to do with composition at all
01:44:15 <Sgeo> What does composing a letter have to do with composition at all?
01:44:30 <Sgeo> (I still think the name sucks, despite my retort)
01:44:41 <Bike> it still looks weirdly used in these docs
01:45:27 <tswett> "If the result of an expression is a block, then the elements of that block are inserted into the output block:"
01:45:30 <tswett> That fact hurts a little bit.
01:45:56 <Sgeo> tswett, that can be disabled by using compose/only. But then you lose splicing altogether, I think.
01:45:56 <tswett> Okay, /only changes that. Whew.
01:48:20 <tswett> Sgeo: hey, lemme tell you about ultrafilters!
01:48:46 <tswett> Sgeo: suppose you have a set X. Then an ultrafilter on X is a collection U of subsets of X with all of the following properties:
01:49:04 <shachaf> Hey, lexande was telling me about ultrafilters the other day.
01:49:31 <tswett> The empty set is not a subset of U; given an element of U, all of its supersets are also in U; given two elements of U, their intersection is in U; and given a subset A of X, either A or the complement of A must be an element of U.
01:50:25 <tswett> Now, the obvious ultrafilters are the ones of the form { A : x is an element of A, A is a subset of X }, for elements x of X.
01:50:40 <Sgeo> All supersets of every element of U is in U? Does this include those supersets that contain elements that are not in X?
01:51:36 <Sgeo> Also "The empty set is not a subset of U" seems ... weird
01:51:45 <Sgeo> Actually, it seems impossible, come to think of it.
01:51:46 <tswett> Er, whoops. The empty set is not an *element* of U.
01:52:00 <tswett> Thinking about it for a while, it seems like these obvious ultrafilters (called "trivial ultrafilters") are probably the only ultrafilters that exist. If there are any other ultrafilters, something really weird must be going on.
01:53:08 <Sgeo> REBOL reduce also has nothing to do with functional reduce, but the name does make more sense than compose
01:53:13 <tswett> Indeed, I think it's possible to prove that it is impossible to define a non-trivial ultrafilter.
01:53:42 <tswett> However: in ZFC, every infinite set has non-trivial ultrafilters.
01:53:55 <zzo38> It says there is also free ultrafilters, according to Wikipedia, but not on finite sets.
01:54:24 <tswett> Right. Finite sets don't have non-trivial ultrafilters.
01:54:40 <tswett> ("Free" is a synonym of "non-trivial".)
01:55:58 <copumpkin> ultrafilter : ((x : A) -> Dec (P x)) -> (xs : [A]) -> ...
01:56:00 <Sgeo> REBOL has ... issues with mutability
01:56:12 <Sgeo> The copy function is essential to understand well, I think
01:57:14 <tswett> Come to think of it, maybe I can define a non-trivial ultrafilter on the integers?
01:58:13 <tswett> How about this: a set A is in U if and only if for every alternating string of 1s and 0s that ends with 1 (like "1010101"), there is an integer in A whose binary expansion ends with that string.
01:58:35 <Bike> shachaf: have you seen the Tao post
01:58:57 <tswett> Mm, no, that doesn't work. Consider the set A = {11, 1101, 110101, 11010101, ...} and the set B = {111, 11101, 1110101, 111010101, ...}. A and B are disjoint, but they are both elements of U.
01:59:35 <Bike> shachaf: http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2007/06/25/ultrafilters-nonstandard-analysis-and-epsilon-management/
01:59:57 <shachaf> The Tao that *can* be spoken of.
02:00:59 <Bike> It defines ultrafilters, and relates them to voting (and so arrow's theorem)
02:02:19 <Sgeo> do does [print "This is silly"]
02:02:34 <tswett> Hm. If you have an infinite set of voters, you can say that a bill passes if and only if the set of all yeas is an element of the ultrafilter.
02:02:54 <Sgeo> Static analysis of a bunch of REBOL code is probably harder than TCL
02:03:10 <tswett> Which has the curious property that no vote matters individually, under any circumstances.
02:03:39 <Sgeo> tswett, can a pair of votes matter?
02:03:52 <tswett> No finite set of votes matters.
02:04:13 <Sgeo> I guess that's easily seeable from no single vote ever mattering
02:04:34 <Sgeo> If a finite set mattered, it's possible that that finite set depends on 1 vote... unless the finite set is constrained in what it could look like
02:04:44 <Bike> i hear bachman is courting the Vitali set's vote, i wonder how that'll work out
02:05:44 <tswett> Like if you have three people, and the bill passes only if those three people all vote for it, but then it also happens that (for some reason) the three voters can't possibly all vote the same way.
02:07:49 <Sgeo> Not sure if I prefer REBOL refinements or keyword arguments. (Note that Smalltalk does not count as having keyword arguments)
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02:18:02 <elliott> Bike_: has anyone used "take a hike, Bike" on you yet
02:18:47 <Sgeo> I wish the whole 'so many datatypes that the parser just knows' wasn't considered such a maor selling point. Unless I can easily define my own, I'm not especially interested.
02:19:15 <shachaf> there must be 50 ways to leave your bicycle
02:19:43 <shachaf> i left my bicycle in washington :'(
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02:23:05 <Sgeo> "Type secure [debug allow] or put it in your rebol.r file.
02:23:05 <Sgeo> Type secure none (but don't put it in your rebol.r file.)"
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02:23:23 <Jafet> Has anyone asked to ride Bike
02:26:44 * Sgeo wants to think through the differences between Factor and a hypothetical post-fixed REBOL
02:27:23 <Bike> but you can't, because you're ritually forbidden from thinking about computers on wednesdays
02:27:38 <shachaf> Bike: did you even see all the bicycle talk we had here while you were timing out
02:28:57 <Sgeo> Actually, I don't think there's a difference
02:30:59 <shachaf> Sgeo: when will you stop caring about languages
02:31:14 <Sgeo> shachaf, probably when I die.
02:31:31 <Sgeo> Or earlier is possible.
02:31:44 <Bike> i feel that sgeo should become a rebbe
02:32:13 <Bike> hardcore rabbi.
02:45:12 <Sgeo> Found an asymmetry: Can't have a function in REBOL return multiple values
02:47:41 <Sgeo> tswett, I may have found a use for compose without /only
02:54:10 <Sgeo> From a page on REBOL, this is valid code
02:54:11 <Sgeo> head insert tail block select list name
02:54:52 <Sgeo> :/ that's not really code to show people imo
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02:58:08 <Bike> it's just a bunch of words
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03:03:57 <Bike> hey elliott weren't you going to set up a bouncer for me or something
03:04:16 <elliott> no i just wanted to steal your password
03:11:15 <Sgeo> == $5.0000000000000000000000000
03:12:30 <Bike> floats are the future
03:12:44 * Sgeo was more concerned with the unit mangling
03:13:31 <Sgeo> "If I have $5 and see a bunch of $1 items, how many can I buy?" "FIVE DOLLARS!"
03:13:54 <Sgeo> I suck at examples
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03:17:22 <Bike_> ok so: sgeo does this thing use floats for currency
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03:17:49 <Bike> does my connection use floats for currency? MAYBE
03:18:09 <Sgeo> "The money! datatype uses standard IEEE floating point numbers allowing up to 15 digits of precision including cents."
03:18:10 <shachaf> maybe it uses floats for concurrency
03:18:12 <Sgeo> Fuck you REBOL
03:18:25 <mnoqy> the money! datatype
03:18:45 <Sgeo> All datatype names are suffixed with !
03:18:56 <elliott> i wonder what comes next after rebol
03:19:01 <mnoqy> so what's the point of money!
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03:19:20 <shachaf> hey kmc landed a few minutes ago
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03:22:49 <Sgeo> Oh hey Rebol3 wasn't upgraded since 2011
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03:31:50 <Sgeo> It's possible that the "we're using floating-point for money" thing is obsolete
03:32:12 <Sgeo> http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Money
03:32:49 <coppro> we totally need a bitcoin-based language
03:32:51 <Bike> money for scientific applications
03:34:39 <Sgeo> "Trembmax, unlike in R2, which you clearly used, in R3 is money! datatype BCD internally."
03:37:07 <mnoqy> what does that mean
03:38:22 <shachaf> hey mnoqy mind if i call you mnoqy!
03:38:33 <shachaf> you look like a data type to me
03:38:47 <shachaf> a data type interpreted as a proposition.......a true proposition
03:39:20 <mnoqy> who isn't, these days?
03:40:53 <Sgeo> mnoqy, binary-coded decimal, according to someone in another channel
03:41:34 <Bike> kick it like it's 1989
03:41:43 <Bike> or whenever x86 had that idk.
03:42:03 <mnoqy> binary-coded decimal. cute.
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03:48:09 <Sgeo> I... don't know what to think of the way apply interacts with refinements
03:48:19 <Sgeo> They're simply positional arguments
03:50:23 <Sgeo> "A scheme specifies a type of port. Schemes are defined for files, networking, sound, and many other functions. Users can define their own schemes or modify the existing schemes."
03:50:31 <tswett> So I heard once that accountants and whatnot actually need to use arbitrary-precision arithmetic.
03:50:31 <Sgeo> That last sentence makes me happy
03:51:10 <Sgeo> Ok, I misunderstood what schemes are
03:51:27 <shachaf> They're lisp dialects. There's a report for each one.
03:52:10 <tswett> So if someone has $10,000 in an account with 12% interest compounded monthly, then one year later, the balance on the account must be exactly $11,268.25030131969720661201.
03:52:59 <Sgeo> So, Rebol is still a bad idea in finance.
03:53:12 <Bike> i assume they meed computable numbers for continuously compounded interest
03:53:23 <shachaf> all numbers are computable
03:53:51 <tswett> Bike: I think computable numbers are sort of overkill there.
03:54:26 <tswett> Do they actually use continuous compounding somewhere?
03:56:24 <Sgeo> I like how this advocacy section lumps Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, and Caml together, and then proceeds to talk about Lisp
03:56:35 <Jafet> Calculus student loans.
03:56:37 <Sgeo> http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Advocacy#Lisp.2C_Scheme.2C_Haskell.2C_Caml
03:57:36 <mnoqy> well look at all those other section things though
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04:00:30 <Sgeo> I feel like I've mostly been mocking REBOL, despite being genuinely interested in it
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04:12:12 <tswett> Continue this sequence: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 13, 14, 14, 15, 15, 16, 16, 17, 17, 18, 18, 81, ...
04:12:17 <tswett> Or, rather, unfair problem.
04:12:24 <Sgeo> -2834198237481273409
04:12:34 <tswett> Nope. It's a strictly increasing sequence.
04:12:43 <tswett> And all of its elements are integers.
04:13:20 <tswett> I'm not actually sure that that part of the sequence is correct. Pretty sure, but not completely sure.
04:13:21 <Sgeo> ERR COUNTABLY INFINITE NUMBER OF CONTINUATIONS
04:13:43 <Sgeo> You said integers... oh, I meant for just the next number
04:14:01 <tswett> I'm pretty sure the next number is 81.
04:14:24 <Sgeo> Are there more infinite sequences of real numbers than there are real numbers?
04:14:31 <Jafet> Not strictly, strictly speaking.
04:15:34 <tswett> The numbers after that... probably 256 and 256. Then probably 1024 and 1024. Then probably 4096 and 4096. Then probably 16,384 and 16,384, then probably 78,125 and 78,125.
04:15:42 <tswett> But I'm getting less and less sure with each number I name.
04:17:28 <tswett> I could write this sequence as a Haskell function, but that would probably take hours.
04:18:41 <tswett> I could implement Conway's chained arrow notation in Haskell, and that would only take a couple of minutes.
04:19:25 <tswett> But this sequence grows faster than any sequence concisely expressible using Conway's notation. Indeed, writing any sequence that grows as quickly as this one would also take me hours.
04:21:36 <Sgeo> Is your lack of certainty reflective of your own personal lack of certainty only, or of the lack of certainty of the mathematical community in general?
04:21:54 <tswett> My personal lack of certainty. The mathematical community could probably figure it out reasonably easily.
04:22:34 <tswett> Pretty sure this sequence isn't in OEIS.
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04:24:14 <tswett> The nth term is the largest integer that can be written as a Church numeral in the calculus of constructions using at most n+9 symbols.
04:24:14 <Jafet> (http://oeis.org/A182369)
04:26:04 <tswett> Where a Church numeral is a term of the type forall o : T, (o -> o) -> (o -> o).
04:27:36 <tswett> The number 1 can be written in 10 symbols, so the first few terms are just 1. Any number n can be written in 13 + 2n symbols, so it stutters all the way through 18.
04:28:40 <tswett> The number a^b can always be written using (13 + 2a) + (13 + 2b) + 11 symbols, which explains the following few terms.
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04:30:36 <tswett> Presumably, as n increases, the "winning expression" will become nested exponentiation, then tetration, then pentation, then the Ackermann function, then Conway's chains, then variations on those, and eventually something we haven't imagined yet.
04:30:47 <Jafet> It's kind of like a busy beaver. A... colossal coq.
04:31:00 <tswett> Yeah. It's just the busy beaver sequence for the calculus of constructions.
04:31:11 <tswett> Which, unlike the busy beaver sequence for Turing machines, is computable.
04:34:08 <tswett> I guess after a while, it seems likely that the sequence would just use the fast-growing hierarchy directly.
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04:36:07 <tswett> We can probably figure out where the sequence falls on the fast-growing hierarchy.
04:37:27 <tswett> Perhaps it corresponds to the proof theoretic ordinal of the calculus of constructions.
04:44:58 <coppro> I have discovered the identity of the biggest pervert in the world
04:45:05 <coppro> http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~scshunt/pervert.png
04:48:57 <tswett> Man, f_epsilon_0 on the fast-growing hierarchy grows pretty quickly.
04:50:25 <tswett> Let's just call it fe0. fe0(1) = 2, fe0(2) = 4, and fe0(3) is too large to have an upper bound concisely expressible using Conway chains.
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04:54:14 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast-growing_hierarchy, and see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_numbers#Systematically_creating_ever_faster_increasing_sequences for how to evaluate functions up to f_(omega^2).
05:03:12 <tswett> Huh. Apparently the Esperanto Wikipedia claims that "Lasero" comes from the phrase "Lum-Amplifo per Stimulata Eligo de Radioj".
05:06:54 <Jafet> Language architecture by stealing english rendition
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05:13:06 <mnoqy> shachaf: btw you should smlist hth
05:13:19 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
05:13:44 <Sgeo> Rebol is worse than Tcl in a way: Given a block of Rebol code, you can't tell where one expression ends and the next begins. With Tcl, you can do that much, even if you can't proceed to interpret code blocks inside of that block
05:15:46 <coppro> which is smlist again?
05:18:26 * Sgeo isn't entirely sure why either exists
05:18:30 <Sgeo> if/else is equivalent
05:20:10 <shachaf> mnoqy: 22:19 -!- ifeellikeabadperson whenitalkbynicking Nick change too fast. Please wait 20 seconds.
05:20:25 <mnoqy> have you tried waiting 20 seconds
05:20:41 <shachaf> where did you get that idea
05:20:52 <shachaf> are you some "kind of computer genius".........
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05:54:41 <kmc> how did it go
05:54:43 <hagb4rd> elliott: first pubic hair?
05:56:24 <elliott> it's generally considered bad to troll
05:56:59 <shachaf> kmc: welcome to california
05:57:00 <hagb4rd> you're right. i'm sorry. please go ahead
05:57:04 <shachaf> have you been to a california welcome center yet
05:57:24 <kmc> shachaf: that's the building that says "In-n-Out Burger" right
05:57:26 <kmc> in that case, yes
05:57:41 <shachaf> I suppose I can't argue with that.
05:58:10 <shachaf> Everyone said I should go there, so I went there. But there isn't much point to it when you're vegetarian.
05:58:57 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you expert in "In-n-Out Burger"
05:59:05 <mnoqy> i wouldn't call myself an expert
05:59:14 <mnoqy> but i know a few techs
05:59:21 <shachaf> expert means you went there in your life ever
05:59:54 <mnoqy> if you ask for "animal style" fries they put their goop on it, just like with their burger's
06:00:01 <hagb4rd> we say 2 experts ~ 3 opinions
06:00:05 <mnoqy> hm what other techs are there
06:01:10 <mnoqy> shachaf: that's the tech you just say "animal style" when ordering and that's the magic words
06:01:22 <shachaf> mnoqy: yes i meant teach me other techs
06:01:34 <mnoqy> i wonder if you can get an "animal style" shake that'd be hm
06:01:50 <shachaf> that doesn't sound delicious
06:02:12 <mnoqy> gosh im having trouble remembering techs
06:02:16 <mnoqy> oh i remember a tech
06:02:36 <mnoqy> i think if you ask for "grilled cheese" you get bread with cheese on it
06:02:46 <mnoqy> i've never done it myself but i have memories of witnessing it
06:03:03 <elliott> are we talking, like, untoasted bread here
06:03:15 <mnoqy> it's hamberger bun elliott
06:03:18 <mnoqy> im pretty sure they "toast" it
06:03:28 <elliott> i was really confused about california for a minute
06:03:41 <shachaf> elliott: we're talking a hamburger with cheese and without the meat
06:04:00 <shachaf> it's just a hamburger bun with cheese and maybe some vegetables
06:04:43 <fizzie> A grassburger is what you can get if you be vegetarian. It's like where you put some freshly-mowed lawn in place of the meat.
06:05:25 <shachaf> are you sure you don't put drugz instead
06:05:34 <kmc> shachaf: I'm in a hotel in MV
06:05:35 <mnoqy> i've seen lots of vegetarian burger alternatives
06:05:46 <mnoqy> veggy burger, soy berger
06:05:47 <kmc> shachaf: in-n-out Animal Style fries are good
06:05:49 <kmc> as are the shakes
06:05:56 <kmc> and they will make a 'grilled cheese' which is like a burger minus meat
06:06:11 <elliott> 07:02:36 <mnoqy> i think if you ask for "grilled cheese" you get bread with cheese on it
06:06:19 <elliott> 06:59:54 <mnoqy> if you ask for "animal style" fries they put their goop on it, just like with their burger's
06:06:23 <kmc> i got scoop'd
06:06:23 <elliott> way behind kmc, way behind
06:08:40 <kmc> so how did the interview go
06:09:55 <mnoqy> oh, that interview
06:10:00 <mnoqy> yeah it went swimmingly
06:10:06 <shachaf> kmc has some interviews this weekend.......
06:10:08 <mnoqy> he even left us a gift
06:10:13 <shachaf> or maybe tomorrow "who knows"
06:11:40 <mnoqy> but is it for wsj!!
06:12:14 <shachaf> no its for the csc(CASTRO STREET COMPANIES)
06:13:40 <shachaf> kmc: Were we going to meet in SF on Fri or something like that?
06:14:27 <kmc> shachaf: sounds good to me
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06:19:27 <hagb4rd> can somebody pick me please explain in few words whats that reporter-interview-wsj thing is about? i somehow missed the kickoff and it seems to keep you all excited these days
06:20:45 <kmc> shachaf: help how do i prepare for job interview
06:20:53 <fizzie> hagb4rd: http://catseye.tc/wsj.html <- good link
06:21:04 <fizzie> (If slightly outdated.)
06:21:04 <elliott> this answer was personalised to you
06:21:13 <kmc> elliott: thx
06:21:23 <fizzie> Was the extent of the personalization that "z"?
06:21:28 <kmc> elliott: they do say memory is state dependent so maybe if i have some bong hits I will remember some of the CS i learned while stoned
06:21:42 <elliott> they say memory is state dependent b/c we rely on the govt for everything
06:22:32 <shachaf> kmc: teach me when you find out plz thx
06:22:43 <elliott> kmc: who are you interview'sin'g with first
06:22:54 <shachaf> elliott: hey that was goin g to be my question
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06:32:40 <shachaf> you could blackmail them or kidnap their children/pets
06:32:40 <kmc> flew into SFO today. got as far as Milbrae station before I smelled someone smoking pot and heard someone use the word "hella"
06:32:43 <kmc> god bless SF
06:36:20 <kmc> Sgeo, shachaf: I finished _The Tangled Web_
06:36:26 <kmc> good stuff
06:36:51 <shachaf> two exclamation marks? ok i m in
06:37:36 <kmc> i like that you can convince the user to manually change the character encoding of a page, which also changes the encoding used for a hidden iframe of an unrelated site, defeating escaping mechanisms on that site
06:39:14 <shachaf> kmc: What are your plans on Fri if any?
06:39:55 <kmc> no plans, you?
06:40:32 <shachaf> Ideally I'll get there sometime before 13:00 and try to do the passport thing. I might also meet $people but I'm not sure.
06:40:54 <kmc> also there's discussion in that book of a mechanism that's kind of like the NX bit for the web, and a workaround exploit strategy that's like ROP for the web
06:41:29 <kmc> some HTTP header that says which URLs can be used for <script> tags
06:41:31 <kmc> forgot the name
06:42:52 <shachaf> I guess I should read the book.
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06:47:02 <kmc> also i read like a third of _Stories of Your Life and Others_
06:47:05 <kmc> good stuff
06:47:40 <shachaf> airplanes are nice for reading sometimes
06:48:00 <kmc> i have an e-reader now; i don't use it much at home but it's nice for traveling
06:48:04 <elliott> more like ehhhroplanes because i don't have any strong opinions on them
06:48:06 <kmc> i might use it more at home, now!
06:48:10 <kmc> elliott: thx for sharing
06:49:10 <shachaf> kmc: I wish I could enjoy carbonated things.
06:57:54 <Jafet> They built a new ehhkranoplan, but nobody cares.
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07:04:45 <Jafet> “In order to prevent the occurrence of CFIT accidents, manufacturers and safety regulators developed terrain awareness and warning systems (TAWS). [...] In the case of Mount Salak Sukhoi Superjet 100 crash, the TAWS was working but the pilot intentionally turned it off.[9]”
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07:10:47 <kmc> BWOOP BWOOP PULL UP PULL UP
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07:16:28 * kmc → sleep, maybe
07:23:29 <hagb4rd> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE0fhflzoHM
07:27:56 <hagb4rd> make sure to master the company song
07:46:37 <hagb4rd> this is amazing! i never realized zzo38 published THAT much work for the esolang community..our sneaky humble rascal of zzo38
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08:10:20 <fizzie> If you want to compliment a professional musician, can you say "don't quit your day job", or does it always sound like an insult?
08:11:58 <mnoqy> i think the "good sounding" form is "keep it up" or "keep up the good work" or "attaboy"
08:12:58 <Jafet> Keep it up, she said
08:13:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you "an attaboy kinda person"
08:13:31 <mnoqy> shachaf: no i was making a funny
08:13:37 <mnoqy> Jafet: who's this?
08:14:07 <mnoqy> maybe it has attagirl
08:14:13 <shachaf> (sry wn but u r u barely no english..................)
08:14:24 <lambdabot> *** "wordnet" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:14:24 <lambdabot> n 1: any of the machine-readable lexical databases modeled after
08:14:24 <lambdabot> 2: a machine-readable lexical database organized by meanings;
08:14:26 <lambdabot> developed at Princeton University [syn: {WordNet}, {Princeton
08:14:50 <Jafet> mnoqy what is it with you and the tough questions
08:14:54 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XgOA compensationary WordNet atta's.
08:15:19 <Jafet> @wn compensationary
08:16:05 <fizzie> The best thing about WordNet are the hierarchies.
08:16:38 <fizzie> Aircraft carrier is a warship is a ship is a vessel is a craft is a vehicle is a conveyance is an instrumentality is an artifact is a whole is an object is a physical entity is an entity.
08:17:23 <fizzie> Some people do semantic similarity measures by counting path lengths in WordNet.
08:17:27 <Jafet> @wn instrumentality
08:17:28 <lambdabot> *** "instrumentality" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:17:28 <lambdabot> n 1: a subsidiary organ of government created for a special
08:17:28 <lambdabot> purpose; "are the judicial instrumentalities of local
08:17:28 <lambdabot> governments adequate?"; "he studied the French
08:17:39 <lambdabot> instrumentalities for law enforcement"
08:17:39 <lambdabot> 2: the quality of being instrumental for some purpose
08:17:39 <lambdabot> 3: an artifact (or system of artifacts) that is instrumental in
08:17:39 <lambdabot> accomplishing some end [syn: {instrumentality},
08:17:46 <fizzie> Sense #3 in that tree.
08:18:20 <fizzie> All nouns derive from "entity", so you can compute the distance between any pair of nodes.
08:18:48 <fizzie> Of course that's not what it's meant for, and the height of the tree is very different for different kind of words.
08:19:37 <fizzie> And the verb trees is an entirely separate hierarchy, and is a lot flatter.
08:20:06 <fizzie> (Also doesn't have a shared root.)
08:21:25 <fizzie> (So I guess it's the verb forest instead.)
08:21:54 <fizzie> Verb forest is a popular vacation spot.
08:24:27 <fizzie> http://maraca.d.umn.edu/cgi-bin/similarity/similarity.cgi?word1=aircraft_carrier%23n%231&word2=blue%23n%231&measure=all&rootnode=yes so many measures
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09:15:42 <fizzie> I just misspelled "aspell" as "aslepp". Apparently I need a spellcheck for running a spellcheck.
09:17:33 <elliott> fizzie: maybe your brain is telling you you should be aslepp
09:21:18 <fizzie> "invididual". I must've been aslepp also typing this.
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09:56:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/FgUM this guy sounds frustrated.
09:59:08 <fizzie> It was copy-pasted from a typesetteded file.
09:59:21 <fizzie> http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/IEEEtran/testflow/ that is.
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10:13:56 <FreeFull> fizzie: Think individual since you don't want to divide a person
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11:59:05 <fizzie> It's the year 2013, and the ä in my supervisor's name got corrupted in IEEE's electronic copytheft form.
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13:03:34 <boily> bon matin tous! first day of the year without any coat, frock, vest, hoodie, nothing!
13:06:09 <fizzie> Shirt, pants, underwear... anything?
13:07:21 <elliott> don't question it too much. you don't want to truly know about quebec.
13:09:32 <fizzie> The guy who usually sits at the desk next to mine is currently at Vancouver, Canada; ICASSP 2013 is being arranged there.
13:11:05 <boily> fizzie: I had a tee, pants, shoes an my baseball cap. couldn't wear less; too much police presence lately.
13:17:53 <fizzie> They have +28 °C at friggin' Rovaniemi at the moment. That's, like, right at the arctic circle.
13:18:56 <metasepia> CYUL 301300Z 26011KT 15SM SCT025 SCT240 20/16 A3004 RMK CU3CI1 SLP171 DENSITY ALT 600FT
13:19:14 <metasepia> EFRO 301250Z AUTO 16005KT 070V220 CAVOK 26/M01 Q1018
13:19:28 <fizzie> Okay, that says 26; but Foreca said 28.
13:19:51 <boily> we're at 45N, and rovaniemi's at 66N, and it's warmer than here???
13:20:20 <fizzie> Weather: it makes no sense.
13:20:53 <fizzie> +30.7 is their highest-ever recorded temperature, they're kind of close.
13:21:12 <fizzie> (And -47.5 °C their lowest.)
13:24:37 <boily> rovaniemi's current relative humidity is at 16.9%. that's impossible here.
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14:39:22 <oerjan> <boily> Taneb: let us not immediately jump to presumptuous conclusions. itidus may has become a very powerful lich for all we know here. <-- the idea of a lich with all of itidus's powers is rather horrible to contemplate hth
14:40:40 <oerjan> "sorry for that, i am not good with necromancy spells"
14:42:59 <oerjan> actually, maybe we should have a "which current or former #esoteric regular would be most scary as a lich" competition.
14:45:11 <oerjan> a swattable lich isn't scary, duh
14:46:32 <boily> what about a Canadian lich, eh?
14:50:03 <oerjan> obviously canadian liches don't exist.
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16:05:14 <kmc> perhaps Postel's Law and... whatever the opposite of Postel's Law is... are different equilibria of the same game
16:05:48 <kmc> if senders are mostly conformant, it's better for receivers (more secure, less effort) if they simply drop any malformed traffic
16:06:18 <kmc> but if senders are inconsistent and sloppy, receivers have to deal with that, and the first one to break compatibility is punished severely
16:06:33 <kmc> and naturally that means there's no pressure for senders to be less sloppy
16:06:46 <boily> kmc: I wouldn't say more secure. less effort of course, but what about corner cases, overflows, malformed packets, apocalyptic stuff, aliens?
16:07:27 <kmc> isn't it better to refuse to touch malformed packets, rather than making a wild-ass guess?
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16:13:12 <kmc> for example there was a worm of sorts that crapflooded Freenode a while back
16:13:49 <kmc> that worked by having a webpage that would POST a form to the IRC server, which would ignore all the HTTP headers and execute IRC commands embedded in the form text
16:14:20 <kmc> it would be better if the IRCd just dropped any connection that starts with an unrecognized IRC command
16:14:27 <kmc> but if you do things like that, you lose users
16:14:55 <kmc> (I think the solution is to drop any connection that starts with "GET" or "POST" or possibly other HTTP verbs)
16:15:02 <kmc> (the one they actually implemented, I mean)
16:15:47 <kmc> you get similar problems if you have a network service on any port in your domain, that will echo text sent to it (e.g. in an error message)
16:16:32 <kmc> a browser can interpret the response as a HTTP/0.9 headerless response, and execute script tags embedded within
16:18:47 <Taneb> There will always be dodgy connections and solar radiation flipping bits
16:19:07 <Taneb> Perhaps a "I'm not sure I heard that right, could you send it again?" message
16:21:18 <kmc> but there will also be events that cut the connection entirely
16:21:22 <kmc> so robust clients will try again
16:21:36 <kmc> obviously this is a little different in situations where the message getting through is critical
16:21:50 <kmc> i'd argue you still want a rigid 'inner' packet and then error correcting codes around that
16:21:58 <kmc> haven't thought much about it though
16:22:00 <kmc> back later
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16:31:27 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
16:42:56 <cpressey> <tswett> However: in ZFC, every infinite set has non-trivial ultrafilters. <- axiom of choice hth
16:43:41 <cpressey> actually that a complete guess on my part, i'm sure an actual mathematician will pummel me into paste with the Real Reason
16:47:01 <cpressey> <Sgeo> head insert tail block select list name <Sgeo> :/ that's not really code to show people imo <- right, we can't have that sort of thing going on CAN WE
16:51:25 <cpressey> @tell oerjan I just found a cupcake, is it yours? I assume not but I can't tell for sure
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17:25:06 <tswett> Yeah, the axiom of choice is what gives you non-trivial ultrafilters. In ZF, you can't prove that there are non-trivial ultrafilters.
17:32:39 <tswett> You know what, lemme stick this thing in the topic.
17:32:53 -!- tswett has set topic: ♪ LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc ♪ | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | There exist Turing machines that halt in some models of ZFC, but not others..
17:37:40 <tswett> Turing proved that the problem of determining whether or not a Turing machine halts is undecidable. Thus, there must exist some Turing machine (call it T) such that there is neither a proof that it halts nor a proof that it does not halt.
17:38:01 <tswett> Gödel's completeness theorem states that in certain theories (including ZFC), if a statement is true in all models of the theory, then there is a proof of it.
17:38:27 <tswett> However, there is no proof that T halts, nor a proof that T does not halt. Therefore, it must not be true that T halts in all models of ZFC; and it must not be true that T fails to halt in all models of ZFC.
17:39:45 <coppro> you have two different definitions of undecideable there
17:39:50 <coppro> and you're conflating them
17:40:10 <tswett> I think the two definitions are equivalent in this case.
17:40:17 <tromp> > map (chr. (+96)) [23,1,12,20,5,18,19]
17:40:34 <tswett> The first is "there is no algorithm determining it", and the second is "there is no proof of it or its negation", right?
17:41:09 <tswett> If, for all Turing machines, there were either a proof that the machine halts, or a proof that the machine does not halt, then we would, by searching through all these proofs, be able to determine whether the machine halts or not.
17:41:26 <shachaf> FireFly: Hey, we should change `olist to print the argument.
17:41:39 <tswett> So the first undecidability implies the second undecidability.
17:41:46 <tswett> Except I feel like I'm doing something fallacious here.
17:42:41 <tswett> I'm assuming that if there's a proof that the machine halts, then the machine halts, and that if there's a proof that it doesn't halt, then it doesn't halt.
17:42:41 <boily> > [prec] <*> "uspnq;!xiz!xbmufst@"
17:42:48 <boily> > [pred] <*> "uspnq;!xiz!xbmufst@"
17:43:25 <tromp> i was looking at this tattoo http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/files/2008/07/god-the-void.jpg
17:43:29 <tswett> It's certainly true that if a machine halts, then there is a proof that it halts. So if there's a proof that a machine doesn't halt, then it must not halt, because otherwise ZFC would be inconsistent.
17:43:52 <shachaf> FireFly: I assign you to do it. Just echo "$@" somewhere.
17:43:53 <tswett> What I'm not sure about is the proposition that if ZFC has a proof that a machine halts, then the machine halts.
17:44:01 <shachaf> FireFly: Also change `emptylist and `smlist etc., of course.
17:44:25 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
17:44:42 <boily> tromp: makes sense.
17:46:21 <FireFly> `run sed -i '1s/: /\$@: /' bin/olist
17:46:35 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
17:46:46 <zzo38> If ZFC has a proof that the machine halts, but it doesn't even though it runs forever, then either ZFC doesn't apply to Turing machines, or the machine is broken, isn't it?
17:46:55 <coppro> tswett: it is in fact possible to prove the incompleteness theorem through reduction to the halting problem
17:47:02 <coppro> through iteration of every proof
17:47:11 <FireFly> `run sed -i '1s/\$@/ &/' bin/olist
17:47:18 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0") $@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
17:47:58 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, in this case, I would say that ZFC "doesn't apply" to Turing machines in the sense that ZFC makes a false statement about them.
17:48:20 <tswett> coppro: can you do that without assuming that if ZFC proves that a machine halts, then the machine halts?
17:48:42 <tswett> Anyway, I think Gödel's incompleteness theorem does actually prove my thing here.
17:49:03 <coppro> tswett: you're assuming consistency here
17:49:10 <coppro> which is entirely reasonable
17:49:27 <tswett> Gödel's incompleteness theorem implies that there must exist some Turing machine (call it T) such that there is neither a proof that it halts nor a proof that it does not halt[citation needed].
17:49:37 <tswett> Gödel's completeness theorem, blah blah blah.
17:49:54 <tswett> coppro: are you saying that consistency implies that if ZFC proves that a machine halts, then the machine halts?
17:49:58 <zzo38> If it halts, that is a proof that it halts. Isn't it?
17:50:12 <zzo38> Even though, the proof might be too long to write down.
17:50:21 <tswett> zzo38: yes, but we're talking about the other direction. If there's a proof that it halts, does that mean it halts?
17:50:22 <coppro> I mean, the definition of "halts" is constructed from ZFC
17:50:30 <tswett> coppro: well, can you prove that?
17:51:11 <coppro> tswett: sure. Let Delta be the transition function which takes a TM + tape + state and produces the next TM + tape + state
17:51:22 <zzo38> tswett: That must be true. If you are proving it using ZFC and yet it doesn't halt, then it means that ZFC doesn't prove that Turing machines halt or not.
17:51:50 <coppro> then halting is just saying that there exists n such that Delta^n(M, t, s) has a state of ACCEPT or REJECT
17:51:53 <tswett> zzo38: I think you might be conflating definitions of "proof" there.
17:52:07 <zzo38> tswett: O, maybe...
17:52:39 <tswett> I'm using "proof" in the sense of "sequence of statements such that each statement logically entails the next" or whatever.
17:53:22 <coppro> but we assume that ZFC is consistent, so it only proves things that are true in its models
17:54:07 <tswett> Or, well, that means that ZFC has models.
17:54:13 <zzo38> tswett: And yet, I think that is a way to prove that it halts, since it too, follows the sequence of steps, "proving" each state from its predecessor, which is the only possibility. So it does logically entails the next.
17:54:19 <coppro> sure, depending exactly on the definitions
17:54:30 <coppro> the important thing is that if we have a model, then anything ZFC proves is true in the model
17:55:13 <tswett> I'm suggesting that maybe there's a Turing machine that halts in every model of ZFC, and yet does not actually halt.
17:55:16 <tswett> But lemme think about that a moment.
17:55:36 <tswett> If, in every model of ZFC, the Turing machine halts, then, in every model of ZFC, there is some number of steps after which it halts.
17:56:21 <tswett> Now, that "number" can't be a standard integer, because if it were, then that model would just be wrong. Like, it couldn't exist, or it wouldn't actually be a model, or whatever.
17:56:33 <tswett> So it has to be a non-standard integer.
17:56:47 <zzo38> Then ZFC would not be applicable to Turing machines, therefore it doesn't actually prove that a Turing machine halts, I think.
17:57:07 <tswett> So the statement "there is a Turing machine that halts in every model of ZFC, and yet does not actually halt" implies the statement "every model of ZFC has non-standard integers".
17:57:33 <tswett> Which seems rather implausible, though I can't immediately think of a disproof.
17:59:26 <zzo38> Is it possible to prove what will halt in a standard number of steps, rather than only if it is non-standard?
18:02:56 <tswett> Well, "standard" can't be defined inside the system itself.
18:03:16 <tswett> The system thinks that all of its numbers are standard.
18:03:40 <zzo38> O, is that like the axiom of choice?
18:04:23 <tswett> Well, "non-standard number" means "object that satisfies the model's 'is a number' predicate, but is not a number".
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18:05:25 <zzo38> O, so that is what it means.
18:06:16 <boily> I declare 無 to be a number!
18:09:56 <boily> http://www.strangehorizons.com/2000/20001120/secret_number.shtml
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18:54:52 <zzo38> Here is a Z-machine interpreter I have written: http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/fweep.zip But it is somewhat buggy; it won't accept "y" when it asks you to quit but it does accept "yes". Are you able to find the wrong thing?
18:58:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3037
19:00:35 <HackEgo> 184) * oerjan considered buying lutefisk, but apparently it cannot be prepared in microwave </bachelor frog>
19:05:38 <cpressey> isn't lutefisk that one where they bury the shark in sand for three months before eating it so that the shark urine that poisoned the shark to death leaches out of it so you can eat it?
19:05:53 <cpressey> or is that some other disgusting maritime delicacy
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19:13:31 <boily> cpressey: you're thinking about hakárl. lutefisk is only fish soaked in lye.
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19:22:54 <boily> cpressey: oops. misaccented hákarl.
19:23:19 <FreeFull> Lutefisk and hakárl are nothing compared to surströmming
19:23:25 <boily> (when talking about fermented shark, you try to not make any mistake.)
19:23:53 <boily> FreeFull: all I know is that all of these have very pungent odours, from their wikipedia articles. I never experienced none of them with my nose, sadly.
19:24:30 <FreeFull> I thought lutefisk didn't have much of a smell at all
19:24:54 <FreeFull> Isn't it basically fish made into soap
19:25:21 <FreeFull> Oh, apparently it does smell strong
19:25:42 <FreeFull> Surströmming is by far the strongest though
19:25:53 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CUbD that was kinda funny.
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19:30:51 <boily> FreeFull: I know that I do like nattō, so maybe any of them is better than what wikipédia implies.
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19:33:49 <FreeFull> boily: surströmming's smell is worse than wikipedia implies
19:37:48 <boily> Santé Canada seems to have no notice or law concerning surströmming, so maybe it is legal for importation.
19:40:33 <boily> it seems like google is not friendly concerning that subject. the only relevant infos are from swedish tourism sites, and tourists who went there.
19:41:34 <boily> I want to buy surströmming!
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19:59:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I can't see the sea from where I am. I could walk to it, but it would take me a few hours (and I might end up at a cliff instead of a beach.) (Now you ask me: "Why not drive to the beach?")
20:02:37 <cpressey> <Phantom_Hoover> Why not drive to the beach?
20:02:52 <cpressey> HAVE YOU *SEEN* THESE ROADS???
20:03:09 <boily> are they worse than Québec roads?
20:03:45 <boily> FreeFull: I probably have found a potential hypothetic fine grocery store that may have surströmming. perhaps.
20:03:45 <cpressey> i've never been to ireland but YES THEY ARE WORSE
20:04:51 <cpressey> i may defy your command. i kind of want to see ireland and now it's nearby
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20:11:41 <cpressey> that's not so different from here. perhaps unsurprisingly.
20:11:44 <FreeFull> boily: Never ever open it indoors
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20:14:33 <boily> FreeFull: that's what just about every source says. some even go as far as to tell you to open the can underwater.
20:16:45 <boily> I think I'll save a can for mid-July, and open it on the Mont Royal and see how long it takes for me to get beaten down by angry cops.
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21:05:23 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/images/xyzzy/kola-kola-koski-flub-flub-flub.jpg
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21:07:10 <shachaf> cpressey: why do you have a different 404 page for directories that exist and for files that aren't found, hth
21:12:24 <cpressey> shachaf because i'd rather spend my time drawing cartoons than debugging my htaccess sorry for your GRAND INCONVENIENCE hth
21:13:19 <shachaf> your apology doesn't cut it sorry hth
21:14:05 <cpressey> i'm not the one who decided to strip the filename off the url to see if i could get a directory listing hth
21:14:40 <shachaf> of course not, you have better ways to get directory listings
21:15:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29378
21:17:02 <shachaf> cpressey: maybe i appreciated your cartoons so much that i wanted to see more hth
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21:20:23 <cpressey> shachaf: if you really want to know, the only other file in that directory is a (scrawled) cartoon about the socks. i haven't been doing this very long, see, and i assume that at some point, i'll, like, organize them. but not yet
21:21:22 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
21:22:42 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
21:23:35 <cpressey> `learn htdh is help received from a hairy toe belonging to Don Ho.
21:23:59 <shachaf> <Rincewind> That doesn't work.
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21:24:45 <cpressey> Rincewind: I realize that. wait, where are you
21:24:59 <shachaf> cpressey: wouldn't that be htdhh or dhhth hth
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21:26:04 <cpressey> shachaf: fine, but what part does Rincewind play in this, whoever they are?
21:27:25 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
21:27:52 <Taneb> `learn Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
21:27:53 <fizzie> HtDH is also a well-known book titled How to Design Hogprams.
21:27:54 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen Rincewind ever
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21:28:16 <shachaf> fizzie: I thought it was "How to Design Hotdogs".
21:28:39 <fizzie> It could be that too. I know it's all about functional condiments.
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21:32:16 <cpressey> remind me not to search things on the internet. now I know what Nepeta Leijon is.
21:33:44 <Taneb> Nepeta Leijon is a character in Homestuck.
21:33:50 <Taneb> The joke is shachaf hates Homestuck.
21:34:26 <Jafet> Metajoke: the joke makes about as much sense as homestuck
21:34:44 <cpressey> actually, nothing about "homestuck" came up in my search
21:34:49 <cpressey> i think the metajoke is the internet
21:35:25 <Taneb> cpressey, Homestuck is part of MS Paint Adventures
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21:35:54 <Taneb> I'd give it a read, it's quite fun!
21:36:00 <cpressey> Taneb: thanks for the info walking away from computer now
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21:47:54 <shachaf> Taneb: I don't hate Homestuck!
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21:56:02 <cpressey> well THAT was odd. i just saw a UFO!
21:56:25 <cpressey> meaning, i could not identify it. probably a perfectly mundane object, but i've never seen anything like it before
21:57:21 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
21:57:22 <cpressey> might have been some kind of hobbyist hot air baloon. translucent orange, shaped kind of like a shopping bag without handles, with a brighter yellow-orange spherical-ish light inside near the bottom (possibly a flame, hard to tell.)
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21:59:17 <cpressey> and i have Taneb to thank for bringing up slightly repellent internet culture (not anything against it, it's just, one odd subculture is more than enough for me) encouraging me to go for a walk
21:59:52 <cpressey> know any good search terms i could use to get images of such a thing?
22:00:04 <Bike> a ghost lantern?
22:00:10 <Koen_> well, you could try "inverted shopping bag lantern"
22:00:26 <cpressey> "chinese lantern flying" -- yeah, it looked a lot like one of those
22:00:31 <Koen_> and hopefully you'll find a thread on a forum somewhere about someone saying he's seen a ufo
22:01:39 <shachaf> since when are you in that channel
22:02:02 <nooodl> i'm in #haskell quite often now that i have it for autojoin
22:02:29 <nooodl> i don't say stuff though, because i'm bad at haskell, rip
22:02:41 <shachaf> nooodl: Oh, you're the Belgian person.
22:02:57 <shachaf> I can stop accusing everyone else of being Belgian now.
22:02:58 <nooodl> that's anothertest :-)
22:03:34 <cpressey> yeah, it was totally a flying lantern. cool :)
22:06:22 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:06:42 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
22:08:09 -!- sivoais has joined.
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22:11:10 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. (see also: d-modules)
22:11:23 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
22:15:11 <cpressey> wouldn't've even thought differential operators would necessarily form a ring, much less that there'd be modules over it
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22:16:11 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
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22:19:19 <HackEgo> noooooodl is a stupid person
22:19:35 <Koen_> well that's not nice
22:19:57 <shachaf> Yes, but it's the same nooooooooooooooooooodl, not matter how many 'o's you write.
22:20:07 <Koen_> shachaf: but how can you do that??
22:20:31 <cpressey> it also capitalized the D in D-modules
22:20:32 <shachaf> No, `? doesn't have anything for this.
22:20:38 <shachaf> I mean it refers to the same person.
22:20:52 <shachaf> `run sed -i "s/is/ain't/" wisdom/nooodl
22:20:56 <Koen_> and added a "Michael" for Phantom_Hoover
22:21:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
22:21:19 <cpressey> guessing you can specify what the noun it prints back is
22:21:35 <shachaf> (Well, that's most it is.)
22:21:41 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | lowercase) \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
22:21:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/%3F
22:22:11 <shachaf> cpressey: It just cats the file wisdom/blah! It's `learn that's the weird one.
22:22:17 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
22:22:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
22:22:41 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
22:22:51 <HackEgo> noooooodl ain't a stupid person
22:22:51 <HackEgo> noooodl ain't a stupid person
22:22:52 <cpressey> shachaf: and yet, ?'s source is longer than learn's
22:22:52 <HackEgo> nooodl ain't a stupid person
22:24:18 <cpressey> hackbot filesystem is version controlled. how often does a commit happen?
22:24:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:24:46 <shachaf> That URL has a list of commits.
22:24:50 <cpressey> i guess, every time a command is executed
22:24:57 <shachaf> Every time a command changes something.
22:25:12 <HackEgo> Category theory is the theory of categories.
22:25:22 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
22:25:24 <Koen_> well tha was helpful
22:25:26 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
22:25:50 <shachaf> Bikes can't see red, right?
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22:26:21 <cpressey> `learn Braid theory is the theory of braids.
22:26:23 <Koen_> why is shachaf sending blank lines?
22:26:53 <HackEgo> Braid theory is the theory of braids.
22:27:14 <cpressey> `run mv wisdom/braid wisdom/braid\ theory
22:27:39 <HackEgo> Braid theory is the theory of braids.
22:28:05 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
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22:28:32 <shachaf> `run for f in wisdom/*; do echo "$f"; cat wisdom/"$f"; echo; done | paste
22:28:38 <shachaf> `run for f in wisdom/*; do echo "$f"; cat "$f"; echo; done | paste
22:29:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26955 \ cat: wisdom/lystrosaur: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
22:29:32 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/wisdom/`?: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/?: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/??: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/☃: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/⌨: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/🐐: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/$1?: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdom/aah: Not a directory \ cat: wisdom/wisdo
22:30:52 <HackEgo> Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
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22:33:36 <cpressey> `learn HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herrence Tao and Don Ho.
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22:34:23 <cpressey> damn. curse you, Terence Tao, for spelling your name with only one r
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22:35:19 <cpressey> `run sed -i "s/errenc/erenc/" wisdom/htdh
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22:40:27 <cpressey> `learn ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs (which are not presently defined.)
22:41:11 <cpressey> `learn ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
22:42:10 <cpressey> Phantom__Hoover: when you find something you can't define categorically please let me know hth
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22:46:03 <cpressey> `learn welcome.bork Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: http://isulungs.oorg/veeki/Meeen_Pege-a. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon irc.del.net.)
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22:51:33 <ion> It would be very unlikely for a bot to interpret / as a command character in the same way IRC clients for humans do.
22:52:45 <fizzie> It would be very likely for HackEgo to interpret / as a directory separator, though.
22:54:19 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
22:54:44 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/urandom > /dev/kmem
22:54:45 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/kmem: Permission denied
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23:29:03 <Phantom__Hoover> oh my GOD i wouldn't have said those things if i knew the PRESS were watching
23:29:05 <Bike> "I'll be lurking for a few days" -- jsvine or something
23:29:24 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:35:15 <shachaf> Did you do your interview?
23:40:57 <kmc> went pretty well I think
23:47:24 * Sgeo needs to think about quasiquotation in REBOL
23:48:21 <Sgeo> "AFAIK, only REBOL is braindead enough to dynamically parse function text like m4 does!"
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23:54:19 <Sgeo> One point where Tcl is better than Rebol: Tcl values are immutable.
23:54:40 <kmc> shachaf: i should ask edwardk what he thinks of rust
23:54:50 <kmc> i think he told me at one point that human beings are not smart enough to use a language with affine types
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00:10:34 <Sgeo> http://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl/
00:10:44 <Sgeo> print read http://www.rebol.com works in Rebol 2 and 3 on that site
00:10:51 <Sgeo> I wonder if arbitrary network stuff would too
00:14:53 <Sgeo> I think seeing URIs like tcp://irc.freenode.net:6667 weirds me out a bit
00:18:43 <Bike> what the heck is tcp: supposed to do
00:19:17 <Sgeo> TCP connection in Rebol
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01:18:49 <Sgeo> I can barely figure out how to read from stdin in Rebol
01:24:51 <tswett> Sgeo: hey, has the domain name for Sine changed? I'm unable to connect to it at the moment.
01:25:41 <Sgeo> tswett, not that I know of. Hmm.
01:26:14 <Sgeo> One domain doesn't seem to work, another still does
01:26:21 <tswett> Can you tell me the one that works?
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01:46:36 <Sgeo> 'cmccann: [on reimplementing cryptography in pure Haskell] writing in Haskell lets you use type safety to ensure that all the security holes you create are subtle instead of obvious.'
01:46:43 <Sgeo> That sounds very kmcish really
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03:17:25 <shachaf> kmc: is that what it means to be a ninja rockstar............
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04:51:55 <zanfiln> Anyone here familiar with J?
04:56:40 <zanfiln> Got a fun little challenge for anyone who wishes to try :P make a script (in any esoteric lang of your choice) that adds up all numbers from N for X length. So if N is 20 and X is 5 > 20 + 21 + 22 + 23 + 24
04:58:01 <shachaf> > let (n,x) = (20,5) in sum [n..n+x]
04:59:11 <shachaf> > let (n,x) = (20,5) in sum (take x [n..])
05:02:33 <Bike> xn + 2x "designed by mathematicians"
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05:40:40 <fizzie> > let (n,x) = (20,5) in x*n + x*(x-1)/2
05:42:08 <fizzie> Numeric input and output in it is such a pain.
05:46:43 <fizzie> ^bf ,>,[<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<<<+>-]>.!
05:47:08 <fizzie> It's the essentials, at least; just add decimal input/output.
05:49:10 <shachaf> That doesn't show up inverted?
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06:38:28 <zanfiln> fizzie: How would that be run without fungbot?
06:39:00 <Bike> the stuff after ! is just input.
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06:41:43 <zanfiln> Bike: http://ideone.com/C3nm3u
06:43:25 <zanfiln> Bike: It does not output anything
06:44:07 <Bike> You did not input anything.
06:44:31 <fizzie> It's a bit hard to input those control characters (5, 20) with ideone, I'd guess.
06:45:15 <zanfiln> Bike: Even if you do input something
06:46:22 <fizzie> If you input !!, you get Q out: http://ideone.com/C3nm3u#li_rPCpIB
06:46:55 <fizzie> > let (n,x) = (ord '!', ord '!') in chr $ (x*n + x*(x-1) `div` 2) `mod` 256
06:46:59 <fizzie> Seems to work out just fine.
06:47:21 <fizzie> As I mentioned, it doesn't do decimal input or output, so you obviously can't just type in "5 20".
06:48:25 <Bike> http://ideone.com/7JDDrm lemme blow your mind, zanfiln
06:50:44 <zanfiln> Bike: But how could you ^ord n after that? :P
06:55:41 <fizzie> Might be easier to do the arithmetics in (multi-cell) decimal too, if you intend to go that way; I think that's how the couple of decimal-numbers-producing brainfuck snippets in fungot do it.
06:55:41 <fungot> fizzie: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
06:55:46 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
06:55:47 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
06:55:53 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
07:01:03 <fizzie> http://ideone.com/MK0hKU there you go.
07:01:13 <fizzie> Decimal output conversion ripped straight out of ^ord.
07:01:15 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
07:01:20 <fizzie> (Forgot it was in brainfuck too.)
07:01:38 <fizzie> (Decimal *input* left as an exercise for the reader.)
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07:20:09 <fizzie> !befunge98 5 54* 000p>\#;:;+1p00+g00:\-;#1_00g.@ kind of unoptimized, but works; 5 and 54* are the inputs, could be replaced with && if EgoBot did input
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07:29:08 <fizzie> !forth 5 20 over * swap dup 1- * 2/ + . \ also that
07:29:17 <fizzie> (Maybe that was enough for now.)
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07:44:11 <Deewiant> Where's !unefunge98, it'd be much more useful for one-liners
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08:44:45 <fizzie> Ooh, a Fortran 95/2003 summer course.
08:44:51 <fizzie> Sadly I'm on vacation when it happens.
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09:29:57 <DH____> FORTRAN stopped being FORTRAN when they got rid of the layout structure...
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10:48:42 <nortti> I now own a 8" floppy. I got it from our school. it seems that it is very modern
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11:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> so are you going to switch to using that as your only permanent storage
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12:00:19 <boily> encore un bon matin! even less clothing than yesterday!
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12:12:26 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: I lack the drive for it, sadly
12:12:33 <HackEgo> ssue_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:35:21 <boily> @tell shachaf you and your vile HWN puns.
12:35:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
12:35:47 <lambdabot> boily said 26s ago: you and your vile HWN puns.
12:37:26 <boily> the reason I always fail to autocomplete shachaf is that I type «sch-TAB».
12:38:10 <shachaf> boily: It was a Twitter pun before it was a HWN pun.
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13:44:27 <metasepia> "If you lived today as if it were your last, you'd buy up a box of rockets and
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14:01:24 <metasepia> I haven't been married in over six years, but we had sexual counseling
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14:25:24 <DH____> This channel will get to the point when there are more bots than people...
14:41:09 <boily> some day we'll get more canadians than more bots than people here :D
14:50:36 <boily> `relcom MindlessDrone
14:50:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relcom: not found
14:50:41 <boily> `relcome MindlessDrone
14:50:44 <HackEgo> MindlessDrone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:51:19 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: looks like he's from stuttgart.
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14:58:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eercome: not found
14:58:32 <HackEgo> \ bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
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15:28:44 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
15:29:17 <boily> glad to not be alone with notsuredom.
15:33:30 <boily> `run echo 'A state of incertitude, partial existence, dubiosity and conjecturability.' >wisdom/notsuredom
15:35:00 <Jafet> Is that really what it means?
15:35:18 <boily> Jafet: we can't definitely assert so.
15:42:00 <FreeFull> Isn't there a command for adding wisdoms
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15:44:55 <boily> FreeFull: yes, but it prepends what you wrote with the word you are defining. therefore, the '`run echo' bypass.
15:51:22 <FreeFull> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\necho "$2" > "$1"' > bin/addwep; chmod +x bin/addwep
15:51:52 <FreeFull> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\necho "$2" > "wisdom/$1"' > bin/addwep; chmod +x bin/addwep
15:52:29 <FreeFull> `addwep wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
15:53:33 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
15:53:43 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
15:53:51 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
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15:55:35 <boily> `learn isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
15:56:30 <boily> `learn composition is where you take morphisms such as Phantom and Hoover from the Pha category and combine them together: Hoover · Phantom.
15:56:49 <Taneb> Just watched the Fifth Element
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15:57:23 <HackEgo> isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
15:57:30 <HackEgo> composition is where you take morphisms such as Phantom and Hoover from the Pha category and combine them together: Hoover · Phantom.
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15:58:21 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: didn't have the right one readily available, and I'm currently too lazy to dive into unicode charts.
15:59:01 <Phantom_Hoover> `learn composition is where you take morphisms such as Phantom and Hoover from the Pha category and combine them together: Hoover ∘ Phantom.
16:02:12 <metasepia> EGNT 311550Z 07009KT 9999 FEW049 17/12 Q1018
16:02:26 <Taneb> DOES THAT THING HAVE THE TEMPERATURE
16:02:33 <Taneb> ~duck weather in hexham
16:02:37 <Taneb> ~duck weather in newcastle
16:03:20 <Taneb> It's eighteen whole degrees Celsius!
16:05:40 * Taneb doesn't take heat very well
16:05:51 <Taneb> Especially when dehydrated
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16:21:50 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:21:57 <elliott> 17:18:55 -!- olsner [~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #esoteric
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16:22:20 <ais523> elliott: well, that's the opposite of a "we've never seen the two of them at the same time" sort of suspicious
16:22:33 <oerjan> @tell cpressey I don't recall missing any cupcakes.
16:22:49 <ais523> hmm, should I add hexham to my weather indicator, as well as birmingham?
16:22:57 <ais523> that way, I could know what the weather was like for you, as well as for me
16:23:27 <ais523> (having a weather indicator for my current location is surprisingly useful; I often have problems determining whether it's raining even upon looking out of the window)
16:23:36 * oerjan hails from his new apartment
16:24:09 <oerjan> i have not, alas, detected any swedes in here
16:24:26 <ais523> btw, in the webapp I'm working on (the one with jsondb, if you remember that)
16:24:26 <olsner> oerjan: the swedes are in sweden, hth
16:24:32 <ais523> I decided to declare it as HTML 4.01 Strict
16:24:39 <ais523> the main difference this made was a couple of pixels at the top of the page
16:24:57 <shachaf> olsner: why would they go there
16:25:09 <ais523> now I'm wondering if I've done the right thing or not
16:25:16 <ais523> also, CSS arithmetic is so draining
16:25:27 <ais523> you have to add all these extra <div>s to your page to make the presentation work properly
16:25:40 <ais523> even though CSS is meant to divorce styling from structure
16:25:59 <ais523> I guess it seemed more appropriate than Transitional because I was writing from scratch
16:26:05 <ais523> and newer revisions hadn't been approved yet
16:26:35 <Jafet> I always wonder why web designers proclaim the new liberating and platform-independent ways of CSS while complaining that their new layouts are always a couple of pixels off.
16:28:41 <ais523> Jafet: I don't have that complaint
16:28:51 <ais523> I complain that what I need to do to make it not a couple of pixels off is ridiculously stupid
16:29:12 <ais523> I've actually got a "fix" in mind
16:29:34 <ais523> an extension to CSS which lets you do "width:100%-2em-8px", or whatever
16:29:50 <ais523> together with a preprocessor for CSS+HTML that goes and adds all the necessary extra divs and floats and clears and so on to make that actually work
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16:30:07 <ais523> in notation the rest of the browser world understands
16:30:14 * oerjan needs to get a proper computer desk _soon_
16:30:24 <Jafet> Someone has probably already done that IN NODE.JS
16:31:10 <ais523> Jafet: that's almost as bad as doing it in jquery
16:31:20 <oerjan> i vaguely recall my laptop wasn't too hot for my lap back when i first got it :(
16:31:31 <Jafet> (I don't really know what NODE.JS does.)
16:31:34 <ais523> (actually I ended up resorting to jquery to generate some of the wrappers at runtime; this thing is so heavily javascript anyway, that I don't feel bad about using JS for layout)
16:31:46 <ais523> Jafet: it's basically a library for writing servers
16:31:54 <ais523> so, server-side javascript
16:32:02 <ais523> just like you have server-side perl or php or asp or whatever
16:32:45 <Jafet> Oh, that sounds like a good idea. Now you only need to hire javascript programmers.
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16:38:04 <ais523> Jafet: please tell me that was a joke
16:38:16 <Jafet> I didn't come up with that one
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16:43:45 <olsner> meh... I guess that means the internet is still not fixed, merely back to intermittently working after reliably not working at all
16:48:58 <elliott> ais523: does ubuntu's upgrader thing handle upgrading via ssh
16:49:26 <ais523> elliott: I have upgraded (in the sense of "applied updates" not in the sense of "distro upgrade") over ssh before now
16:49:47 <ais523> sometimes it warns you it's going to drop the connection, then drops the connection
16:49:57 <ais523> but it's always come back up again so far
16:50:15 <ais523> I don't know about a distro upgrade, but I assume it could work
16:50:27 <ais523> because it's just a regular upgrade with the dependency rules changed
16:50:28 <elliott> I mean upgrading a distro version
16:50:38 <elliott> ais523: right but I mean if it upgrades sshd or something in the middle
16:50:48 <elliott> because it would presumably kill the updater
16:51:05 <ais523> you'd probably want to nohup the updater just to be sure
16:51:16 <ais523> or use screen, which is like nohup except more interactive
16:54:15 <Jafet> Why are you contemplating using an updater that can't handle failures
16:56:22 <ais523> Jafet: my experience with apt+dpkg is that it's normally very good at giving you paths to recover from failures
16:56:28 <ais523> but what those paths are aren't always obvious
16:56:47 <ais523> also, they need around 400 kilobytes of free disk space to work correctly, over the amount needed for the actual packages
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17:02:22 <metasepia> CYUL 311600Z 22013KT 15SM FEW150 SCT230 28/20 A2997 RMK AC1CI2 TCU TR SLP147 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
17:02:51 <boily> hm. not so bad, except for the TCU.
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17:33:30 * oerjan finally gets around to logread the infamous interview
17:33:55 <elliott> oerjan: don't worry. it went jsvine.
17:33:56 <oerjan> (it is infamous, right? i would expect nothing less.)
17:34:15 * oerjan swats elliott confirmingly -----###
17:34:46 * boily unleashes some high-energy cephalopod on elliott
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17:36:02 <boily> we should transcribe the II into something similar to http://zompist.com/andalou.htm, with nice colours and stuff and sparkles and glitter.
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18:15:51 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> elliott: it's not so much that I've failed, just that I have not yet succeeded
18:15:56 <HackEgo> 1043) <ais523> elliott: it's not so much that I've failed, just that I have not yet succeeded
18:21:41 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You untyped fool!
18:21:47 <lambdabot> Taneb says: lens has got to be the only library with more contributors than people who know how it works
18:21:56 <lambdabot> Taneb says: <Taneb> @let ego x y z = x z $ y z <Taneb> @let superego x y = x
18:22:05 <lambdabot> Taneb says: <Taneb> @let ego x y z = x z $ y z <Taneb> @let superego x y = x
18:22:08 <lambdabot> Taneb says: <Taneb> @let ego x y z = x z $ y z <Taneb> @let superego x y = x
18:22:09 <lambdabot> Taneb says: <Taneb> @let ego x y z = x z $ y z <Taneb> @let superego x y = x
18:22:10 <lambdabot> Taneb says: lens has got to be the only library with more contributors than people who know how it works
18:22:24 <Taneb> I need to say more funny things on channels that aren't this one
18:23:04 <Taneb> `run quote Taneb | head --lines=1
18:23:06 <HackEgo> 389) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
18:23:09 <Taneb> `run quote Taneb | head --lines=1
18:23:11 <HackEgo> 389) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
18:23:19 <Taneb> `run quote Taneb | shuffle | head --lines=1
18:23:21 <HackEgo> bash: shuffle: command not found
18:23:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: randquote: not found
18:23:53 <HackEgo> bin/addquote \ bin/allquotes \ bin/delquote \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/quote \ bin/quotes
18:23:54 <HackEgo> ! \ ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ gccrun \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ instalist \ interp \ it \ joustre
18:24:14 <Taneb> `run ls bin | paste
18:24:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14197
18:24:36 <HackEgo> 389) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 395) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 396) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 402) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insani
18:25:08 <oerjan> `run quote Taneb | shuf
18:25:09 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 945) <ais523> did you know that likes follow you around the internet and steal your browser? <Taneb> I thought that wa
18:25:34 <Taneb> `run quote Taneb | shuf | head --lines=1
18:25:37 <HackEgo> 438) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency
18:25:44 <Taneb> `run quote oerjan | shuf | head --lines=1
18:25:47 <HackEgo> 601) <oerjan> elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true.
18:26:28 <oerjan> `run quote Taneb | shuf -n 1
18:26:30 <HackEgo> 1005) <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
18:27:02 <Taneb> Most of my quotes are actually true
18:27:06 <nooodl_> `run echo 'quote $1 | shuf | head --lines=1' > bin/randquote
18:27:22 <nooodl_> `run chmod +x bin/randquote
18:27:32 <HackEgo> 396) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer
18:28:21 <oerjan> i disapprove of the lack of escaping
18:28:50 <elliott> and indeed of using head at all
18:28:53 <oerjan> `run echo 'quote "$@" | shuf -n 1' > bin/randquote
18:29:09 <HackEgo> 849) <fungot> elliott: sorry, i don't know, some more booze and now, if you eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat! contains exactly the items!
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18:30:12 <elliott> i also disapprove of the lack of the shebang
18:30:41 <Taneb> `randquote breakfast
18:30:43 <HackEgo> 438) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency
18:30:50 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
18:30:59 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1i#!/bin/bash' bin/randquote
18:31:02 <elliott> nooodl_: beacuse it's broken
18:31:07 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 438) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency \ 685) <fung
18:31:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ quote "$@" | shuf -n 1
18:31:17 <HackEgo> 685) <fungot> elliott: to be honest, it doesn't exist in a state of almost perpetual stalemate, and expands to a larger board and more exotic collection of what he refers to as a thermal hull, instead of some kind of clock pun. no, dammit, will this breakfast injure his shrill, bearded, scraggly old men in space. jade's radioactive, omnipotent, spa
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18:31:23 <nooodl_> "`randquote name" seemed to work
18:31:50 <elliott> there are more ways to run things than just from a shell
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18:33:25 <nooodl_> would randquote ever be invoked by anything but that though
18:39:57 <oerjan> nooodl_: some day someone will build a distributed random quote AI system, and it will call randquote from python hth.
18:55:28 <oerjan> hm ctrl-click in my browser is briefly showing something resembling a terminal window
18:56:14 <HackEgo> 935) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday.
18:56:27 <kmc> `randquote dongs
18:56:55 <boily> was there anybody ever named dongs here?
18:57:09 <metasepia> Green gram, a kind of legume, grown for food in British India; called also gram, mung bean, Chinese mung bean, and green-seeded mung bean.
18:57:25 <HackEgo> 589) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks
19:01:50 <metasepia> more, most Great in quantity, degree, or extent: not much rain; much affection.
19:03:22 <metasepia> Norwegian artist whose works include etchings, lithographs, and paintings, such as The Scream and Frieze of Life.
19:04:46 <boily> with a cup of tea and some fternooners on the side?
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19:24:55 <ion> A rough recording of an idea from today. http://johan.kiviniemi.name/music/ion-20130531.flac
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19:36:44 <asie98> so i was so bored that i decided to waste a day on configuring a pentium mmx machine
19:37:00 <asie98> it works quite well, the only problem is lack of ram (16mb)... but my friend has a socket 7 mobo with more ram slots
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19:48:53 <elliott> does anyone know anything about current e-readers
19:50:55 <Taneb> elliott, I know someone who's selling a nook
19:55:00 <boily> elliott: I have a trusty kobo. it works.
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20:03:58 <oerjan> @ask cpressey <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/images/xyzzy/kola-kola-koski-flub-flub-flub.jpg <-- why was that a flub it looks correct to me
20:05:45 <boily> @ask cpressey what the fungot is that.
20:05:59 <boily> oh hm. where is fungot, now?
20:06:45 <oerjan> unfound, got no fungot
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20:09:11 <oerjan> i hope this brief terminal-resembling popup on every new tab opening isn't some malware
20:09:42 <oerjan> since i just installed windows updates, i'm going to assume it's just a "feature" of one of them
20:09:45 <elliott> hey maybe we can get oerjan to switch to linux >:)
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20:14:54 <a98SiE> running windows 98se right now, your argument is invalid
20:18:33 <boily> oh øøøøørjaaaan ♪ come to the penguin side of the force ♪
20:21:23 <elliott> that is the worst song i have ever heard
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21:12:13 * impomatic just booked tickets for the Silicon Dreams Festival :-) http://www.silicondreams.org.uk
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21:19:18 * oerjan determines the offending popup was java's ssvagent.exe
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22:27:14 <Bike> is it ever actually practical to use an integer exponentiation algorithm fancier than binary decomposition
22:28:48 <itsy> Probably only if you're using infinite precision numbers.
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22:32:33 <Bike> 81891^49999990 takes no time at all mod a billion and i don't even have 64-bit immediates
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22:33:00 <fungot> Bike: except that my scheme skills are somewhat lacking, i haven't done this in a higher-level language
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23:23:58 <Sgeo> pikhq, have you ever looked at REBOL?
23:27:09 <Sgeo> You should, I think. I think of it a bit as a Tcl with better data types
23:27:43 <Sgeo> Not operating on code as a string
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23:53:56 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSnnfUj1XCQ
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23:58:57 <Sgeo> The end of that video is beautiful