←2017-01 2017-02 2017-03→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:00:00 <shachaf> fizzie: You should try out Buck and see if it's better.
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00:02:52 <fizzie> shachaf: FWIW, turned out all the rest of the problems were because the plugin just didn't support Android Studio 2.3 yet, while the "external dependencies not resolving" was due to a bad experiment they had pushed out, and had already disabled by the time I reached the end of the story.
00:03:00 <fizzie> You know those Googlers, always experimenting on people.
00:03:17 <fizzie> I didn't even know the thing had an experimentation framework.
00:03:26 <shachaf> `? fizzie
00:03:27 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
00:03:58 <shachaf> `slwd fizzie//s. k. canary k.
00:04:00 <HackEgo> fizzie//fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
00:04:25 <shachaf> `? oerjan
00:04:26 <HackEgo> Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:05:04 <boily> `? funpun
00:05:05 <HackEgo> funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
00:05:35 <boily> `rot13 Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
00:05:36 <HackEgo> The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
00:14:14 <boily> `wisdom canary
00:14:15 <HackEgo> That's not wise.
00:14:19 <boily> `? canary
00:14:20 <HackEgo> canary? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:15:18 <boily> `learn A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up.
00:15:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'canary': A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up.
00:20:34 <quintopia> helloily
00:22:10 <boily> quinthellopia
00:22:33 <quintopia> boily: can you hear god talking here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0EkAZ2uFsCG
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00:26:39 <quintopia> hiyais523
00:27:11 <krok_> quintopia: what the heck is that
00:27:13 <boily> I can hear.
00:27:14 <krok_> quintopia: is that you?
00:27:29 <boily> also, I think you found the perfect ais523porthello.
00:27:54 <ais523> hi
00:29:02 <boily> quintopia: I heard god :D
00:29:21 <shachaf> I still want to see a picture of the computer ais523 didn't choose.
00:29:34 <krok_> quintopia: i listened to the whole thing, still confused af
00:29:36 <ais523> IIRC it was by Asus
00:29:43 <ais523> that might help?
00:29:49 <ais523> I didn't take a picture of it though
00:30:48 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
00:30:58 <shachaf> I think I may have considered buying that computer once.
00:31:04 <shachaf> http://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/Asus/UX501JW-DS71T/P5070055.jpg
00:31:09 <shachaf> The UX501VW something
00:32:27 <shachaf> At least there's an end key on the number pad.
00:33:15 <quintopia> krok: then it succeeded
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00:34:13 <boily> `wisdom
00:34:14 <HackEgo> c++//Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
00:34:30 <boily> @karma c
00:34:31 <lambdabot> c has a karma of 2
00:34:33 <boily> @karma C
00:34:34 <lambdabot> C has a karma of 2
00:34:47 <boily> @karma boily
00:34:48 <lambdabot> You have a karma of 108
00:35:06 <boily> still at the magical number ^^
00:35:55 <fizzie> @karma c/c
00:35:55 <lambdabot> c/c has a karma of 1751
00:36:31 <boily> who again had managed to flood the chännel, that one infamous time?
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01:31:36 <boily> `wisdom
01:31:38 <HackEgo> fabric of reality//The fabric of reality is *not* plaid corduroy, no matter what evil tongues say.
01:31:54 <boily> paisley.
01:31:57 <boily> `wisdom
01:31:58 <HackEgo> ehlist//ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
01:32:23 <boily> `wisdom
01:32:25 <HackEgo> program//A program is an image created by means of prography.
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01:32:32 <boily> `wisdom
01:32:33 <HackEgo> p//P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
01:32:56 <shachaf> `? NP
01:32:57 <HackEgo> NP is the complexity class of decisions that are No Problem.
01:33:33 <boily> I believe it will become irrelevant if P = and/or != NP, we'll just brute force everything in due time.
01:34:06 <shachaf> only brutes use brute force
01:34:31 <boily> brutes with raw musculo-computing power.
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01:35:09 <boily> `wisdom
01:35:10 <HackEgo> lie algebra//A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
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01:37:10 <boily> are there practical applications to Lie algebra?
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01:40:46 <fizzie> We all got a chicken-duck-woman thing waiting for us.
01:40:47 <fizzie> (I clicked too much in YouTube.)
01:41:35 <boily> Every day I worry all day ♪
01:43:14 <fizzie> Yes.
01:43:32 * Marcela_- y jackiller_killex pronton se casan :-[ quien se anota para la boda ?
01:45:26 <boily> ¿porqué ":-["? ¿no eres alegre?
01:52:36 <Marcela_-> :-[
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01:57:01 <boily> `wisdom
01:57:02 <HackEgo> dowry//A dowry is a pribe paid for a brice, or maybe a bribe paid for a pride.
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01:57:32 <boily> Marcela_-: ¿qué es un :-[?
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01:58:20 <boily> fungot: any clue?
01:58:20 <fungot> boily: it was a hacked up quick and dirty memory fnord normally used it in about any language
02:01:34 <boily> `wisdom
02:01:35 <HackEgo> al gore//Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet.
02:01:58 <boily> `wisdom
02:01:59 <HackEgo> bardsworthlist//bardsworthlist is update notification for the Bardsworth webcomic. http://www.bardsworth.com/
02:05:43 <shachaf> `dowg al gore
02:05:47 <HackEgo> 6206:2015-11-13 <b_jonäs> le/rn al gore/Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet. \ 6113:2015-10-20 <oerjän> le/rn al gore/Al Gore invented the algorithm. \ 6106:2015-10-20 <ais52̈3> le/rn al gore/al gore invented the algorithm
02:06:28 <shachaf> `undo 6206
02:06:30 <HackEgo> patching file 'wisdom/al gore'
02:06:35 <shachaf> `? al gore
02:06:36 <HackEgo> Al Gore invented the algorithm.
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02:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> @metar PAMR
02:58:52 <lambdabot> PAMR 010253Z 00000KT 10SM OVC085 M01/M04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP305 T10111039 53015
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04:07:57 <quintopia> i still can't log in to the freakin' wiki
04:08:27 <quintopia> like--i've got four cookies set from esolangs.org--but apparently that's not enough for my login to stick
04:09:16 <quintopia> ...and apparently deleting them fixed it
04:09:17 <quintopia> never mind
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04:47:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Silberjoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50828 * Quintopia * (+3772) Page created
04:48:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50829&oldid=50820 * Quintopia * (+18)
04:49:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CALESYTA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50830&oldid=50737 * Quintopia * (+41)
04:50:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50831&oldid=46041 * Quintopia * (+80)
04:51:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50832&oldid=45607 * Quintopia * (-45) /* Implementation */
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06:37:25 <\oren\> Oh, look, someone baleeted their whole production database
06:37:38 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/gitlabstatus/status/826591961444384768
06:40:29 <shachaf> hell\oren\
06:40:35 <shachaf> how's your build system today
06:40:39 <shachaf> you should invent a good build system
06:42:24 <\oren\> shachaf: It's 1:42 AM, but the build system was crap today
06:42:36 <shachaf> it's always 1:42 AM somewhere
06:43:07 <\oren\> The pre checkin tests failed to fail, the continuous build failed
06:43:28 <\oren\> because apparently there's a limit to how long a command line can be
06:44:02 <\oren\> which was passed by the continuous build but not the pre-checkin tests
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06:49:51 <\oren\> hopefully things will be better by tomorrow afternoon
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10:41:10 <oerjan> @tell boily <-- absolutely. i once was on a summer course to learn how to solve mul<boily> are there practical applications to Lie algebra?
10:41:11 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:41:50 <oerjan> @tell boily oops. something pasted prematurely. stupid touchpad.
10:41:50 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:43:01 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> are there practical applications to Lie algebra? <-- absolutely. i once was on a summer course to learn how to solve multidimensional diff. eqs with them. well, i think that's what we did. it was in Lie's hometown.
10:43:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:47:30 <oerjan> @tell boily someone got the bright idea to have math summer schools there, it's a pretty small town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordfjordeid
10:47:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:49:43 <oerjan> @tell oh. they're still doing that http://www.mn.uio.no/math/english/about/collaboration/nordfjordeid/
10:49:44 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:21:38 <oerjan> *sigh* wiki down again
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11:33:07 <int-e> `whoami
11:33:29 <int-e> (okay, that was silly)
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11:34:27 <oerjan> afternoily
11:34:57 <oerjan> int-ernoon
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11:47:09 <boily> børjan matin, bon matint-e.
11:47:26 <boily> @massages-loud
11:47:26 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 6m 15s ago: <-- absolutely. i once was on a summer course to learn how to solve mul<boily> are there practical applications to Lie algebra?
11:47:27 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 5m 36s ago: oops. something pasted prematurely. stupid touchpad.
11:47:27 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 4m 24s ago: <boily> are there practical applications to Lie algebra? <-- absolutely. i once was on a summer course to learn how to solve multidimensional diff. eqs with them. well, i
11:47:27 <lambdabot> think that's what we did. it was in Lie's hometown.
11:47:27 <lambdabot> oerjan said 59m 55s ago: someone got the bright idea to have math summer schools there, it's a pretty small town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordfjordeid
11:48:19 <oerjan> i thought i sent one more
11:48:26 <boily> tdh.
11:48:35 <oerjan> oh. apparently i sent it to poor "oh."
11:48:56 <oerjan> <oerjan> @tell oh. they're still doing that http://www.mn.uio.no/math/english/about/collaboration/nordfjordeid/
11:49:53 <oerjan> surprise sane people, in Girl Genius? how can this be.
11:52:29 <boily> that was disturbingly logical...
11:58:40 <int-e> sane?
11:58:49 <int-e> oerjan: that sounded like fungot
11:58:49 <fungot> int-e: maybe " esoteric wide web" is defined??' as ' codepoint.' now they have support for variable witdth fonts ( which i haven't even tested yet, it solves all this monkeying around, doesn't it
11:58:52 <oerjan> well, not sparks.
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12:00:13 <int-e> anyway this city network must be quite crowded by now
12:01:22 <oerjan> are you saying beausoleil is self replicating tdnh
12:01:35 <int-e> oerjan: and are you suggesting that sparks are not entirely sane... don't let them hear you!
12:01:50 <int-e> no, I'm not saying that
12:01:56 <oerjan> no, tarvek is suggesting it hth
12:03:08 <int-e> I'm just saying that at least 4 entities have messed with that network recently... the master himself, beausoleil (presumably), the castle, and colette.
12:03:32 <oerjan> well the castle was thrown out
12:04:01 <int-e> I'm half expecting it to go back in... let's see :P
12:04:30 <oerjan> well i'm expecting it come with gun blazing
12:04:35 <oerjan> *to come
12:04:36 <int-e> but I see no hint of replication in there.
12:04:49 <oerjan> that was a joke
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12:06:33 <int-e> oh. "it".
12:08:57 <int-e> Meh I hate colds... brain moving like molassess.
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12:10:00 * boily gives int-e oerjan's match
12:10:49 <oerjan> man, those match last long
12:10:53 <oerjan> *matches
12:10:58 <oerjan> grammar hard is
12:18:43 <int-e> maybe the match is a proper torch
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16:15:53 <\oren\> My grade 6 teacher is retiring and we're gonna throw him a party!
16:19:35 <\oren\> I wonder how common that is
16:20:07 <\oren\> Also, I'm pretty sure some people wont come because they didn't like him
16:24:10 <doesthiswork> what kind of rum are you getting him?
16:40:26 <\oren\> hmm, maybe that would be a good idea
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17:00:00 <GReaperEx> So... what's up with esolangs.org, does anyone know why it's down or when it'll return?
17:04:04 <int-e> The VM hosting the wiki seems to be down... fizzie might know more, but perhaps it needs divine intervention from Gregor :/
17:11:22 <GReaperEx> Ok, I guess I'll have to wait and see. It was down the day before yesterday too.
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18:05:37 <\oren\> hippavilion[1]!
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18:45:29 <fizzie> It was down, and then back up.
18:46:07 <fizzie> I don't really have any visibility to the hosting provider, so yes, I think a Gregorvention is required. Or maybe it just comes back up naturally.
18:46:19 <quintopia> i guess i've gotten lucky. it's always been up when i've looked
18:46:57 <fizzie> It's usually up.
18:47:02 <fizzie> I'm guessing there's at least one nine.
18:47:19 <quintopia> 90%+?
18:47:22 <fizzie> Right.
18:47:32 <quintopia> i'd wager on 2
18:47:37 <shachaf> nine fives of reliability
18:47:46 <quintopia> on the granularity of minutes
18:48:18 <fizzie> I have some monitoring on it, but I keep forgetting how this InfluxDB query language works.
18:48:29 <fizzie> It sure is no Dremel, I can say that much.
18:48:37 <quintopia> how is reliability usually measured anyway? continuously?
18:49:10 <shachaf> fizzie: I've been using Prometheus (a Borgmon clone) recently.
18:52:36 <fizzie> How rude, picking a name that's already an internal codename.
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18:53:09 <fizzie> "Unfortunately, System UI has stopped."
18:53:12 <fizzie> That's unfortunate.
18:53:29 <Gregor> int-e: Bizarrely, the VM seems up but not on the network.
18:53:39 <Gregor> I'm gonna give it a kick.
18:53:40 <shachaf> fizzie: Is that the one that's the future?
18:53:48 <Gregor> Not sure why it decided that network access is for losers.
18:54:11 <fizzie> shachaf: I guess all of them are.
18:54:18 <fizzie> Or at least were at some point.
18:54:34 <shachaf> I keep mixing up my internal code names.
18:54:47 <shachaf> Oh well, not important.
18:56:13 <\oren\> relevant: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/27/bofh_2015_episode_2/
19:00:39 <int-e> Gregor: oh, hope it's not permanent
19:02:06 <int-e> (I've just lost a CaC VM that way about two weeks ago, VM was up but lost network... however in that case the gateway was also unreachable from outside and that doesn't appear to be the case here.)
19:03:19 <int-e> (that's assuming that the gateway is
19:03:33 <Gregor> That is indeed the gateway.
19:07:58 <Gregor> int-e: Problem seems to be the opposite. Outside can see GW but it can't.
19:09:03 <shachaf> `olist 1064
19:09:15 <shachaf> Oh, no HackEgo
19:09:25 <shachaf> Just as well, HackEgo being slow makes me not want to olist.
19:10:44 <shachaf> Since I olist, then it doesn't reply for a long while so I switch to another window, then it notifies me.
19:12:17 <int-e> Gregor: the gateway being visible from outside is new to me, it not being visible from inside also happened with my VM. total routing failure.
19:12:46 <Gregor> Not really much I can do about it :)
19:13:26 <int-e> Yeah. You can create a ticket and wait while CaC totally ignores it.
19:14:42 <Gregor> Yup.
19:16:16 <int-e> or you can set up a mirror of http://www.cloudatacost.com/ (I suspect the owner would gladly give you permission :P)
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20:28:57 <izabera> https://cloudatcocks.com/
20:29:04 <izabera> actual website with useful info ^
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21:05:29 <\oren\> argh, now nano is freezing?!
21:05:50 <oerjan> i think this is "everything breaks" week
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21:08:00 <\oren\> oerjan: well at least the build system is working
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21:13:36 <oerjan> \oren\: well that was broken from the start hth
21:33:40 <\oren\> Water Rabbit refuses to pay back EU funds
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21:42:03 <fizzie> "The most common problems noticed are long waits for virtual machine deployment, loss of network connection, or total loss of a virtual machine. "
21:51:38 <\oren\> Albino Heghog is in the lead in nederland polls
21:52:46 <fizzie> izabera: Your cock wiki seems a little spam-infested.
21:53:57 <oerjan> a clear case of std
22:01:00 <oerjan> it's on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/5r1g6l/esolangsorg_is_down/
22:02:23 <fizzie> Oh no. :/
22:02:45 <oerjan> well it's a very small subreddit.
22:03:18 <fizzie> Still, those are *real people* we're disappointifying. Not just #esoteric regulars.
22:03:57 <\oren\> I don't have a reddit acount, I deleted it
22:04:00 <oerjan> . o O ( `addquote ... oh wait )
22:04:19 <fizzie> I have once done a read-only backup copy for the wiki. Wonder if I should do something like that again.
22:04:53 <fizzie> Probably depends on how long the server is going to be down.
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22:21:08 <ais523> fizzie: wiki seems to be down
22:26:18 <fizzie> ais523: We were discussing that very thing right now, in fact.
22:26:26 <ais523> right, I just checked the log
22:26:35 <ais523> PPCG went and told me to go ping you though
22:26:48 <ais523> so it looks like there's at least two communities outside us that care about the wiki being down…
22:27:23 <fizzie> That's: so weird. Maybe I'll see if I can set up that read-only copy. I might still have most of the configuration in place.
22:28:29 <fizzie> Fortunately it was up on the 30th, so my weekly backup isn't even particularly stale.
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22:47:00 <fizzie> Hmm. What I don't have in my backups is the SSL certificate, since it's rather elsewhere. That's a shame.
22:56:33 <fizzie> This database restore takes a relatively long time.
23:01:27 <fizzie> Hrm.
23:01:37 <fizzie> I'm getting back "A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software."
23:02:10 <fizzie> Although maybe that was because the MySQL instance wasn't listening on TCP, just a Unix domain socket. Wonder if MediaWiki could use that.
23:02:55 <fizzie> Oh, it's already supposed to do that when the server is specified as "localhost".
23:06:56 <fizzie> I set on $wgShowSQLErrors, and the other error reporting thing on Manual:How_to_debug, but it still says nothing more verbose than that. :(
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23:09:04 <fizzie> Odd. The maintenance/rebuildFileCache.php script I executed from the command line seems to have no problems with the database.
23:09:12 <fizzie> And I think it's using the same settings.
23:11:17 <fizzie> Oh, whoops, it was using a path to the old version of MediaWiki for the PHP thing.
23:13:57 <fizzie> It's being pretty slow, but it did show up, yay. Wonder if I should try to set up the HTTPS thing as well.
23:23:44 <fizzie> Oh, right, I'll have to reconfigure the DNS before letsencrypt can actually do the domain verification thing.
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23:32:34 <fizzie> Okay, wiki should be back up in read-only mode.
23:34:00 <fizzie> (May also be slow, and you might have to wait for DNS records to propagate.)
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01:02:48 <fizzie> (I'd also like to put in a banner since the wgReadOnly setting is pretty subtle, but looks like the simple ways to do that would involve extensions, and I don't want to start fiddling with the templates.)
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01:58:19 <boily> `wisdom
01:59:36 <fizzie> We've been over this.
01:59:57 <boily> fizziello? over what?
02:00:37 <fizzie> 19:12 <Gregor> Not really much I can do about it :)
02:00:37 <fizzie> 19:13 <int-e> Yeah. You can create a ticket and wait while CaC totally ignores it.
02:00:40 <fizzie> 19:14 <Gregor> Yup.
02:00:47 <fizzie> Over that.
02:01:22 * boily feels like a junkie without his daily fix
02:01:29 * boily twitches
02:01:56 <fizzie> Don't you have that PDF?
02:02:14 <fizzie> You should print it out, then you can throw darts at it to pick one.
02:03:38 <boily> going to print it, bind it, and mail it to whomever that wants to have a dead tree copy.
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02:21:08 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you're rebracketed!
02:36:47 <quintopia> helloily. go to bed!
02:37:01 <boily> quinthellopia. going to bed!
02:37:05 <quintopia> i'll fix you daily
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09:29:41 <b_jonas> `ping
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11:07:13 <fizzie> Heh, a familiar name: http://thedailywtf.com/images/17/q1/e244/Pic-4.png
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11:36:41 <oerjan> bohily
11:38:44 <boily> hellørjan!
11:39:44 <rdococ> helloerjoily
11:40:45 <boily> rdochelloc!
11:43:51 <oerjan> rdocociao
11:45:23 <izabera> let me share with you the pride of my town http://www.rionesanpaolo-asti.it/IMMAGINIFOTO/varie/territorio/campo%20del%20palio/campodelpalio%20(2).JPG
11:45:45 <izabera> a penis shaped building built in the 1920s or 30s
11:46:06 <izabera> it's meant to represent virility and such
11:46:42 <boily> izabellora. that is one ugly building.
11:46:53 <izabera> ikr
11:48:16 <fizzie> Let's do a tower comparison. Here's the one in the town my parents are from: http://esukki.mbnet.fi/images/vesitor.jpg
11:50:12 <boily> yours is mushroomy hth
11:50:40 <fizzie> tdh
11:53:21 <Taneb> Here's a water tower that used to be at my uni: https://www.york.ac.uk/media/chemistry/archivephotos/watertower/watertower1.jpg
11:53:21 <boily> that's probably the thing that is most like a tower in my hometown: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/06/98/24/ee/observatoire-de-la-capitale.jpg
11:54:28 <boily> Tanelle. concrete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socotra#/media/File:Socotra_dragon_tree.JPG ?
11:54:49 <Taneb> boily, it was known as "the mushroom"
11:55:40 <boily> a very concrete mushroom.
11:56:16 <Taneb> It was built in the 60s when times were simple and everything was concrete
11:58:13 <fizzie> There's a ufo-shaped one in Espoo.
11:58:33 <fizzie> http://s114.photobucket.com/user/Janne_H_2006/media/haikaranpesa.jpg.html
11:58:38 <fizzie> There's a restaurant up top.
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12:00:06 <Alfie275> `tanebventions
12:00:27 <Taneb> Alfie275, the bot is missing
12:00:33 <Alfie275> ah
12:00:40 <b_jonas> izabera: nice.
12:02:17 <boily> Alfiello275, b_jellonas.
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12:05:47 <b_jonas> I don't know of a penis-shaped building here, but there's a maize ear shaped one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kis-Sv%C3%A1b_Hill_Protection_Area._View_to_Hotel_Budapest._-_Budapest.JPG
12:06:46 <b_jonas> so yummy, with those thousand corn seeds, you could just bite in it if you were a giant
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12:11:40 <boily> `wisdom
12:11:45 <boily> ...
12:11:57 * boily faceheaddesks
12:17:38 <fizzie> Well, speaking of vegetables, of course here in London we've got the http://londontopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/The-Gherkin_safra-group.jpg
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12:30:40 <GReaperEx> Are there any cool Brainloller images out there? Like, the image should look like something, instead of just random noise.
12:38:50 <fizzie> Somehow I feel that it's more likely you'd find Piet programs instead.
12:40:38 <oerjan> i made a comment on that /r/esolangs post.
12:41:20 <GReaperEx> piet you say?... hmm
12:41:45 <fizzie> oerjan: That was well done.
12:42:01 <oerjan> heh, thanks
12:42:19 <fizzie> GReaperEx: Granted, a lot of Piet programs are random noise as well. But there's some stuff, like the sample hello-world: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/hw6_big.png
12:42:59 <fizzie> There was also a Facebook recruiting ad puzzle thing in Piet, done in the shape of their 'f' logo.
12:43:20 <GReaperEx> oh, that's cool!
12:44:08 <fizzie> And the pi calculator is very nice as well.
12:44:23 <fizzie> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html has all the "official" samples.
12:44:36 <fizzie> (Look for a big red thing.)
12:45:03 <GReaperEx> I guess any image could be created really, as long as you don't use the specific colors that translate to instructions. The interpreter should ignore anything else, right?
12:45:40 <fizzie> Piet doesn't define what colors except the 20 specific ones do.
12:45:50 <fizzie> "Additional colours (such as orange, brown) may be used, though their effect is implementation-dependent. In the simplest case, non-standard colours are treated by the language interpreter as the same as white, so may be used freely wherever white is used. (Another possibility is that they are treated the same as black.)"
12:46:05 <fizzie> So it's a bit risky business.
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12:46:23 <fizzie> I don't know about Brainloller, DNS for esolangs.org hasn't updated for me at work. :/
12:46:50 <GReaperEx> oh I see, implementation-defined and such.
12:46:59 <fizzie> If you're talking about an image of appreciable size, though, it's probably pretty easy to just arrange matters so that execution doesn't pass through the extra colors.
12:47:21 <GReaperEx> yes, that could be done too.
12:47:22 <fizzie> For example, there's this: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=559
12:47:54 <GReaperEx> nice, pretty clever.
12:48:52 <fizzie> I did that pretty much by tweaking the noise left over (after palette conversion) a little bit.
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14:20:03 <b_jonas> where's zzo38?
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14:20:31 <Taneb> Canada I think
14:30:57 <b_jonas> `ping
14:32:47 <Taneb> HackEgo is also at Canada
14:34:29 * int-e hugs fizzie platonically
14:35:06 <int-e> (I have wiki!)
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15:52:31 <\oren\> OH FOR THE LOVE OF
15:52:57 <\oren\> Why is there so much issues with the command line arguments ength limit
15:55:00 <b_jonas> \oren\: the 2 megabyte linux one, the 32k windows one, or the 127 byte DOS one?
15:56:02 <b_jonas> the 127 byte DOS one is funny, because file paths can be up to 80 bytes long
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16:14:33 <\oren\> b_jonas: the 2 megabyte linux one
16:15:02 <ais523> \oren\: by issues, do you mean it causes issues by existing, or that it's badly implemented?
16:19:24 <\oren\> ais523: I mean that our command lines keep exceeding it
16:19:39 <\oren\> and we have to rework things so they don't
16:20:09 <ais523> I assume you're passing data via the command line which is more commonly passed in files?
16:20:42 <ais523> many DOS programs had a convention that @ followed by a filename would treat the entire contents of the file as command line options
16:22:41 <\oren\> ais523: it's a list of files. but it got too many
16:23:01 <ais523> so how many files is 2MB of filenames?
16:23:18 <\oren\> a lot
16:24:29 <\oren\> they're of the form /projects/Codename/Lyoko/SomeStupidClassName.{cpp,h,xx,yy,zzzzz.xx}
16:24:52 <ais523> interesting extensions
16:25:58 <\oren\> we use a lot of various stupid extentions for internal lanuages
16:27:06 <\oren\> (yes, plural. there are at least 3 languages used only at this company and nowhere else)
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16:28:07 <\oren\> to say othing of the .generated.cpp and etc file
16:28:19 <\oren\> and the .generated.2.cpp
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16:29:32 <int-e> and how do they all end up on the same command line?
16:29:45 <\oren\> and the build system doesn't properly detect when these .generated files need to be regenerated, so before a build be have to delete tham
16:30:39 <\oren\> int-e: by shell scripts passing them into other shell scripts
16:31:15 <int-e> . o O ( why not use make... make isn't perfect but it's almost certainly better than that)
16:31:17 <\oren\> (or into scripts written in an internal scripting language)
16:37:46 <\oren\> where the script interpreter has a slow interpreter that spends a long time parsing things
16:47:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: if it's three languages, then two unsual extensions xx and zzzzz.xx isn't that many
16:47:31 <b_jonas> yy is the extension for yacc files that contain c++ code of course, it's not unusual
16:48:08 <\oren\> b_jonas: those are just paceholders for the actual extensions
16:49:11 <\oren\> wait hold on Salmon is open source anyway
16:49:18 <\oren\> wtf am i talking about
16:49:43 <\oren\> the extentions are .salm, .jt.se, .comspec.se and .se
16:49:58 <izabera> `? asdklfaskldfa
16:50:30 <b_jonas> ah
16:50:37 <izabera> where's the fucking bot -.-
16:50:50 <b_jonas> izabera: not dead, just pinin' the fjords
16:51:17 <\oren\> izabera: dead until cloud at cocks fixes it
16:52:46 <izabera> it took them 3 weeks to reply to my last ticket
16:53:02 <ais523> zemhill: help
16:53:17 <ais523> oh, it has underscores?
16:53:20 <ais523> zemhill__: help
16:53:27 <ais523> I'm not sure if it responds to its name anyway
16:53:37 <ais523> ^help
16:53:37 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:53:45 <ais523> ah, we have at least one working bot, at least
16:54:08 <\oren\> Maybe I should have my bot have an alternative prefix that is in ascii
16:54:08 <b_jonas> [ 2
16:54:09 <ffj-bot> b_jonas: 2
16:54:10 <b_jonas> two
16:54:39 <b_jonas> > reverse"eerht"
16:54:41 <lambdabot> "three"
16:54:46 <\oren\> maybe ## as an alternative to ❄
16:55:29 <\oren\> ^prefixes
16:55:29 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:56:27 <b_jonas> and the tunes.org logbot is working too
16:56:29 <\oren\> or maybe something cool like }|{
16:57:25 <b_jonas> \oren\: couldn't it just listen to its nick as a prefix?
16:57:47 <b_jonas> ffj-bot: 'I listen to my nick'
16:57:48 <ffj-bot> b_jonas: I listen to my nick
17:00:02 <ais523> ffj-bot: 1 2 3 4 5 +/
17:00:02 <ffj-bot> ais523: |syntax error
17:00:02 <ffj-bot> ais523: | 1 2 3 4 5+/
17:00:05 <ais523> hmm
17:00:35 <ais523> so easy to get the various APL-alikes confused
17:00:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: not sure how to get my own nick in irssi scripts
17:00:48 <b_jonas> ais523: in whta apl-alike does that work?
17:01:01 <b_jonas> [ +/ 1 2 3 4 5
17:01:02 <ffj-bot> b_jonas: 15
17:01:07 <ais523> not sure, but I thought there was one where "1 2 3 4 5" was a list constructor
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17:01:15 <b_jonas> yes, it is in most
17:01:23 <ais523> I guess I got the evaluation order wrong
17:01:52 <ais523> I'm used to Jelly, where you have to start with a constant
17:02:05 <ais523> and then the rest of the program is a function that takes the constant as input
17:02:15 <b_jonas> the problem is that the stack consists of a noun followed by a verb with nothing before, which is not allowed by the grammar
17:02:25 <b_jonas> I see
17:03:28 <b_jonas> anyway, 1 2 3 4 5 is a list constructor in almost any apl-like, but (1 2) (3 4) is different: in some classical APLs it constructs a list of lists or something, in J it's a syntax error, in K I think it constructs a single flat list but I'm not sure
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17:09:14 <\oren\> \oren\: ping
17:09:20 <\oren\> \oren\:ping
17:09:37 <\oren\> AAAAA
17:10:35 <ais523> b_jonas: Jelly's list syntax is [1,2,3,4,5], but literal lists are pretty rare
17:11:13 <\oren\> \oren\:ping
17:11:13 <\oren\> ☃ pong
17:11:15 <\oren\> \oren\: ping
17:11:15 <\oren\> ☃ nonextant cmd.
17:11:20 <\oren\> RRGH
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17:12:37 <\oren\> \oren\: ping
17:12:37 <\oren\> ☃ pong
17:12:47 <\oren\> there we go
17:37:38 <\oren\> ok now to test
17:37:56 <\oren\> ❄bf +[]
17:39:39 <\oren\> ❄bf +[]
17:39:42 <\oren\>
17:43:43 <\oren\> ❄bf +[]
17:43:43 <\oren\>
17:43:48 <\oren\> there
17:45:08 <\oren\> ❄bf ++++++[->++++++<]>...[]
17:45:08 <\oren\>
17:45:51 <\oren\> ❄bf +++++++[->+++++++<]>...[]
17:45:51 <\oren\>
17:46:03 <\oren\> hmmm...
17:49:21 <\oren\> ❄bf ++++++[->++++++<]>...[]
17:49:21 <\oren\>
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17:56:59 <\oren\> ❄bf ++++++[->++++++<]>...[]
17:56:59 <\oren\>
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18:13:49 <fizzie> fungot is a working bot.
18:13:49 <fungot> fizzie: i was talking about a 4k ( which excludes my possible participation), i'm kinda new here.
18:15:00 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Something about the IRC bot Ruby framework zemhill is using causes it to collect underscores.
18:15:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:16:00 <fizzie> !help
18:16:01 <zemhill__> fizzie: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
18:16:23 <fizzie> @tell And rather confusingly, it answers to !help with the help message.
18:16:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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18:16:28 <fizzie> Whoops.
18:16:33 <fizzie> @tell ais523 And rather confusingly, it answers to !help with the help message.
18:16:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:16:46 <fizzie> I wonder how many messages "and" has.
18:16:55 <fizzie> And/or if they're on any channels lambdabot is.
18:17:28 -!- and has joined.
18:17:32 <and> hi
18:17:41 <and> @messages-loud
18:17:41 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1m 17s ago: rather confusingly, it answers to !help with the help message.
18:17:51 <shachaf> underwhelming tdnh
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18:18:14 <int-e> fizzie: the answer is, none.
18:19:50 <int-e> which is weird, hmm
18:20:38 <shachaf> What's weird?
18:21:48 <int-e> oh, you emptied the bucket.
18:21:54 <int-e> never mind.
18:22:24 <fizzie> It wasn't a big bucket.
18:22:33 <fizzie> I'd call that a teacup, maybe.
18:22:40 <shachaf> I thought you were making a joke when you said none.
18:23:03 <shachaf> Do they drink tea in London?
18:23:39 <int-e> there are messages to <ais523>, <boily>, <b_jonas>, <mroman> and <oerjan> though... that won't work very well.
18:24:03 <shachaf> lambdabot was patched to allow @tell nick: instead of @tell nick
18:24:19 <shachaf> I suppose it ought to allow @tell <nick> too.
18:25:26 <int-e> even "I" has only a single message
18:27:46 <shachaf> i,i I, for one, like roman numerals
18:28:09 <int-e> ... punny
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18:29:45 <shachaf> It's not a funpun, though. I read it on the Internet somewhere.
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18:30:57 <fizzie> shachaf: I think they do.
18:31:18 <fizzie> shachaf: https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/31751878454/
18:31:24 <fizzie> (That's in London.)
18:31:55 <shachaf> Is London more expensive to live in than San Francisco?
18:32:19 <fizzie> I don't think there's a scalar answer to that.
18:33:17 <shachaf> You were buying real estate in London the other day, weren't you?
18:33:55 <fizzie> Nnnot really, I just look at what's available occasionally.
18:34:02 <fizzie> Maybe later.
18:34:43 <shachaf> Do you think buying real estate in the bay area is a good idea?
18:35:09 <fizzie> Depends. Do you think California will become an independent country, and if so, will there be war?
18:35:20 <fizzie> I hear you're (/they're) talking that sort of talks.
18:35:23 <pikhq> I suspect living in the urban area of London is cheaper than in the urban area of SF, but living in the central region of London most analogous to SF proper probably is comparable.
18:36:07 <pikhq> (the cost of living in the Bay Area doesn't go down *that* much outside of SF, and transportation gets pretty hard the further you are from your work there.)
18:36:31 <shachaf> It's a fair bit lower around here, I think.
18:36:58 <pikhq> ... While in London, at least you have transport options meaning you can quite sanely live in a cheaper part of the region.
18:37:09 <fizzie> pikhq: Except when they're on strike.
18:37:20 <fizzie> (There's a tube strike coming from Sunday to Wednesday.)
18:38:02 <shachaf> Not 24 hours like usual.
18:38:39 <fizzie> Yes, can you tell I'm all frazzled about it?
18:39:29 <int-e> first May, then Trump, now this... the world is truly coming to an end
18:40:38 <int-e> and of course there's the sudden decline of CaC quality of service!
18:49:12 <fizzie> I toyed about the idea of running it on Google Cloud Platform, but turns out it doesn't support "individual" account types in the EU area, for VAT reasons.
18:49:22 <fizzie> (Where it == the wiki.)
18:51:32 <shachaf> good thing y'all scrapped the EU area hth
18:52:24 <shachaf> "If the sole purpose for which you want to use Google Cloud Platform services has no potential economic benefit you should discontinue your use of the service. Learn how to disable billing on your projects."
18:53:37 <int-e> economic benefit... to whom?!
18:54:26 <fizzie> I could be a "business", but then I believe I would have to pay VAT myself.
18:54:48 <int-e> yes, you would
18:54:54 <\oren\> next will be Geert Wilders, then Marine Le Pen
18:55:03 <fizzie> We have a Googler-internal coupon thing for some credits that should be sufficient, but I don't know how that interacts with tax.
18:55:20 <fizzie> Also not sure if I can even redeem that coupon with a non-"Individual" account type.
18:55:35 <int-e> afaiu the thing about VAT in the EU is that companies have to pay VAT in the customer's country of origin (and VAT rates differ between countries too)
18:56:22 <int-e> but nonetheless the sentence that shachaf quoted strikes me as odd.
18:56:31 <int-e> it's so unspecific
18:56:43 <shachaf> Well, it comes after several other sentences.
18:56:46 <fizzie> That's my understanding as well. And Russia changed their rules the same way, which means Google Cloud did the same thing for Russia. (Saw the thing shachaf quoted sent also for them.)
18:57:42 <int-e> shachaf: oh this comes after a specific list of uses that they're actually interested in? that would make sense
18:57:45 <fizzie> If I "pay" with a coupon, would I be liable for tax? I have absolutely no intuition (the best way to figure out taxation) about this.
18:58:06 <fizzie> int-e: It wasn't *that* specific.
18:58:13 <shachaf> int-e: https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/6090602
18:58:32 <shachaf> fizzie: While you're figuring out taxation, can you help me with the US tax code?
18:58:46 <shachaf> What constitutes "substantially identical" securities for the wash sale rule?
18:59:10 <fizzie> shachaf: Levenshtein distance of less than three hth
18:59:14 <shachaf> (This is less relevant nowadays since all my securities' prices have gone up.)
19:05:48 <int-e> huh, "Most software developers -- including affiliates, sole traders, self-employed merchants, partnerships, students and others -- use Google Cloud Platform for business purposes." really rings false to me.
19:06:35 <int-e> (students, really? and there are plenty of hobbyists, too, I'd think.)
19:06:41 <pikhq> I'm reading that as "Most software developers (who use Google Cloud Platforms) use Google Cloud Platform for business purposes."
19:07:26 <pikhq> Still, that is... Bizarre.
19:07:45 <pikhq> They just punted on the idea of end-user users of the service in Europe.
19:07:54 <pikhq> (which kills the viability of the service, IMO)
19:08:14 <pikhq> I imagine nobody would be using AWS if it had a similar setup back when.
19:09:42 <int-e> fizzie might *just* be fine as long as the billed amount remains a flat zero.
19:10:20 <int-e> but obviously that's just an opinion, not sure what the legal situation really is.
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19:44:35 <fizzie> int-e: Well, it says "you'd like to see a potential economic benefit from your development activities, for example: using the Google Cloud Platform to develop prototypes or applications with a view to generating revenue in the future."
19:44:39 <fizzie> int-e: Arguably if you intend to have a career in software, everything you do to learn things while a student of that field has a "business purpose".
19:45:04 <pikhq> That sounds like an atypical view of the term to me.
19:45:19 <pikhq> But I'm not a lawyer and especially not a European lawyer.
19:45:33 <ais523> fizzie (and anyone else who cares): Stack Exchange gives a certain amount of free advertising space to their communities, while people are viewing them
19:45:48 <shachaf> pikhq: have you considered law school hth
19:45:54 <ais523> PPCG are considering producing an advert for Esolang (which would show some proportion of the time when people visited PPCG)
19:45:59 <pikhq> Considered? I guess I have, yes.
19:46:13 <ais523> do we want one? and if so, what would it look like?
19:46:49 <shachaf> Presumably it would involve limes.
19:47:16 <ais523> that's what the PPCG chat said too
19:47:31 <ais523> but really, it should convey to the typical PPCG audience why they'd want to visit our site
19:48:12 <shachaf> PPCG seems to stand for Programming Puzzles & Code Golf, by the way.
19:49:36 <ais523> yes
19:49:44 <ais523> they're probably the Internet's biggest user of esolangs
19:50:16 <ais523> I've been aware of them for ages but resisted joining, typically I persuaded lynn to relay messages
19:50:25 <ais523> but in the end I finally gave in and now I'm relaying the messages myself
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20:22:53 <FireFly> Heh
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20:29:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: about the community ads, one thing I was wondering is making one where the image is regularly replaced by a bot. it's a bit tricky, because you need to use the SE api for editing, which is nontrivial to implement, plus upload the images to their server, but it's possible and somewhat esoteric.
20:30:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: normally they just do that by directing the image to a server that updates, I think?
20:30:16 <ais523> like, the image file is hosted elsewhere and just gets replaced on the server that hosts it
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20:30:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, I've been relaying messages on SE for a while, I can do it for you too if you want, but then since you're already joined it'd be more strange
20:31:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, the rules for the community ads specifically say the image must be hosted on imgur, and they probably enforce that
20:31:28 <wob_jonas> but someone's already documented how to automatically upload an image there
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20:32:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: http://meta.scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/10564/community-promotion-ads-2017 "Must be hosted through our standard image uploader (imgur)"
20:32:46 <wob_jonas> if it was as easy as directing the ad to my server, then I'd have done it by now
20:33:27 <wob_jonas> although ordinary SE posts do allow images on your own server, so someone who wants that thing could collect a lot of traffic logs that way
20:34:03 <wob_jonas> (unless you're in control of the imgur servers of course)
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20:58:07 <fizzie> Having an ad would be exciting, though I don't have any good, creative ideas re content, and it'd probably be best to do at at some time when the wiki's actually up.
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20:59:58 <DHeadshot> Which is the esolang that had comments entirely and only written in malaysian? I can't remember...
21:07:17 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the wiki is up, or so it seems to me
21:07:52 <wob_jonas> DHeadshot: dunno, that reminds me to http://esolangs.org/wiki/%D0%AE%E1%93%82%EA%B3%A7%E2%8E%94 but doesn't match
21:10:10 <wob_jonas> DHeadshot: found it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/SON-OF-UNBABTIZED . you just have to search for "malaysian" in the wiki
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21:34:34 <ais523> fizzie: the ad's likely to run all of 2017, and can be repeated next year if people like it
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21:34:53 <ais523> (err, all of the remainder of 2017 )
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21:42:14 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's not properly up.
21:42:40 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I have a read-only backup copy running next to my feet here, but the disk access noises are annoying my wife.
21:44:44 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I see
21:45:05 <wob_jonas> and thanks for doing that
21:45:16 <wob_jonas> also thanks to your wife for tolerating it
21:49:48 <ais523> hmm, this new laptop appears to have a touchpadbinding that does the same thing as alt-tab
21:49:58 <ais523> I've hit it several times by accident, but experimentation fails to reveal what it is
21:50:22 <wob_jonas> ouch
21:50:33 <ais523> it doesn't appear to be a three- or four-finger drag up, down, left, or right
21:50:38 <wob_jonas> is there some software that lets you control settings related to that touchpad?
21:50:45 <ais523> although I did discover that a four-finger tap opens the "start menu" equivalent
21:50:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: perhaps it's on some particular area, like near some corner or edge?
21:51:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: on Windows, yes; this is on Linux, though, so I assume something in Ubuntu is involved
21:51:07 <wob_jonas> some touchpads have special functions near the edges and corners
21:51:24 <ais523> top right corner appears to be middle-click, I figured that one out a while back
21:51:42 <ais523> none of the other corners react to taps
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21:53:17 <wob_jonas> common functions include mouse wheel if you drag the right or bottom edge, and locking touchpad if you double-tap the corner with the led that shows whether it's locked
21:53:35 <fizzie> My work laptop has a touchpad with "non-physical" buttons like that, and I never quite managed to configure it exactly the way it should work, even with a lot of fiddling with synclient.
21:54:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: this touchpad doesn't do either of those
21:54:26 <ais523> incidentally, I'm somewhat impressed that it can distinguish a four- from a three-finger tap
21:55:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: lots of years ago, I had a combination of motherboard, mouse, and software that would occasionally sometimes become mad and start jumping large distances wildly and clicking, even though I just move the mouse. stops when the mouse stops moving, and becomes normal after.
21:55:40 <wob_jonas> sadly, the huge distances often moved the mouse to the very corner of the screen, where the close button of a window is
21:55:56 <fizzie> I wonder if these HasSecondarySoftButtons / SecondarySoftButtonAreas options existed when I was trying.
21:55:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: is it possible that this alt-tab thing is not a symptom of a similar bug?
21:56:32 <ais523> nah, I'm pretty sure it's intentional
21:56:45 <\oren\> I prefer using a bleutoth mouse nayway
21:56:52 <ais523> simply that I haven't figured out the trigger
21:56:59 <ais523> maybe it's buried deep in ccsm somewhere
21:57:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: have you tried searching the internet, including either "ubuntu" or the model of the notebook?
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21:57:52 <wob_jonas> you can often find posts on the internet about such things
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21:59:24 <ais523> this feels like the sort of thing I should be able to figure out myself :-(
22:00:26 <ais523> aha, it's a double three-finger tap
22:02:06 <ais523> I also found the docs for it online (after figuring that out), and it seems that much of its functionality isn't working
22:02:11 <ais523> only the "switch to previous window"
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22:04:08 <fizzie> I keep forgetting whether "drag with the right button" is executed as a two-finger tap followed by a single-finger drag, or a single-finger tap followed by a double-finger drag.
22:04:26 <fizzie> (Two-finger single tap is a regular right click.)
22:04:48 <\oren\> ais523: I bet it will go away if you unistall unity
22:04:53 <\oren\> unity is cancer
22:05:20 <ais523> \oren\: I /like/ Unity
22:05:28 <ais523> fizzie: two to one
22:06:02 <ais523> one to two should logically drag and scroll at the same time (which is an operation that's meaningful on a regular mouse), but it doesn't seem to
22:06:30 <ais523> actually, my issue with Unity is that it's broadly well designed from a UI point of view, but terribly implemented
22:06:48 <\oren\> All guis related to a window should stay in that window. they shouldn't be on the top of the screen
22:07:00 <ais523> I mean, it has an option for that
22:07:03 <ais523> but I'm not sure I agree
22:07:24 <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
22:07:42 <wob_jonas> lol
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22:08:07 <wob_jonas> `addquote <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
22:08:14 <wob_jonas> oh right
22:08:16 <wob_jonas> we don't have the bot
22:08:27 <wob_jonas> but that should be addedquote
22:08:31 <ais523> I have to use Gnome 3 at work
22:08:39 <ais523> it took me a while to figure out how it works – it's fairly unintuitive
22:08:42 <ais523> and I still resent using it
22:08:58 <\oren\> also, there should be a menu containing a simple categorical list of every gui program on the system. you shouldn't have to guess at the name of the program in some sort of privacy-cancer-ridden search box
22:09:17 <ais523> at least Unity figured out fairly quickly that they shouldn't autohide the launcher, and made it there permanently by default
22:09:29 <ais523> \oren\: the search box doesn't access the internet by default nowadays
22:09:35 <ais523> unlike Windows', which does
22:09:45 <\oren\> Well I have windows 7
22:09:53 <\oren\> the last good windows
22:10:06 <wob_jonas> \oren\: oh come on, they say that about every windows version
22:10:14 <ais523> you can get a list of every GUI program on the system fairly quickly
22:10:15 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no.
22:10:25 <wob_jonas> I know windows 10 sucks, but at least say something that's specific to that one
22:10:31 <\oren\> the good windowses are 98, XP, and 7
22:10:43 <ais523> (start menu equivalent / Applications / Installed); it also lets you set filters to narrow it down to categories
22:10:43 <\oren\> all the others sucked
22:10:50 <ais523> \oren\: also you mean 98 SE specifically
22:10:51 <myname> 2000 was awesome
22:11:00 <ais523> but yes, 2000 was genuinely good
22:11:12 <ais523> 3.1 was also good for its time
22:11:14 <shachaf> Oh, you mean Windows, not the year.
22:11:14 <wob_jonas> what? 95 OSR2 was a decent one. no memory protection made sense at its time.
22:11:31 <wob_jonas> and I quite like windows 3.11
22:11:33 <myname> i prefer 2000 oder xp
22:11:46 <ais523> btw, I still have the opinion that Vista is the best version of Windows
22:11:50 <myname> over
22:11:58 <myname> wat
22:12:10 <\oren\> vista is a bug ridden turd
22:12:23 <\oren\> I've USED it
22:12:26 <myname> vista was like the public alpha of 7
22:12:53 <wob_jonas> ais: what? even over xp and 7?
22:12:53 <ais523> vista is not buggy in of itself, it's just very good at exposing bugs in everything else
22:13:06 <ais523> Microsoft had to back down from this policy because everyone blamed the OS
22:13:19 <ais523> with the result that 7 after it (and XP before it) are both much more tolerant of buggy program
22:13:22 <ais523> *programs
22:13:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, they have quite a lot of really crazy workarounds for old programs
22:13:40 <ais523> and so Microsoft lost pretty much their only chance to try to get the quality of programs on their platform up
22:13:41 <wob_jonas> some of them very unintuitive
22:13:42 <\oren\> ais523: linus torvalds said it best: "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE!"
22:14:00 <ais523> \oren\: most of the crashes are a result of breaking kernelspace
22:14:11 <wob_jonas> like, redirecting the system32 directory unless the program claims he knows what system32 means
22:14:12 <ais523> the issue is that Microsoft mostly doesn't write drivers themselves
22:14:20 <ais523> but rather leaves it up to the hardware manufacture
22:14:46 <ais523> most of them suck at writing drivers, and many are selfish rather than playing nice with the platform
22:14:57 <\oren\> the point is that whatever was changed most recently must be blamed
22:14:58 <wob_jonas> yeah
22:15:07 <ais523> incidentally, this is why hardware more than a few months old is more likely to "just work" on Linux than Windows
22:15:58 <\oren\> anyway, things worked better on windows 7 and windows 7 gets that credit
22:16:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, and if I buy my next computer, I'll try to buy a motherboard that's at least one year old if possible, so that within a year it will start to just work, when hardware people reverse engineer it to write drivers for everything, like power management and network card and disk controller and stuff
22:16:13 <wob_jonas> same for cpu
22:16:30 <wob_jonas> I think the case and hard disk can be new models, those don't matter much
22:16:50 <wob_jonas> the addition hard disks that is, I will also keep using the ones I have now
22:17:00 <wob_jonas> they're not as old as this motherboard and cpu and memory
22:18:57 <\oren\> anyway the point i was making about UI is that information hiding in a UI is bad
22:19:28 <\oren\> a large menu with every program in it is better than a pretty one where it's hard to find things
22:21:22 <\oren\> the menu for unity at least should have a section where you can get a scrollable list of all programs
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22:35:05 <\oren\> windows 8 made the same exact mistake in their idiotic "start screen" of course
22:41:21 <ais523> \oren\: Unity's menu /has/ a scrollable list of all programs
22:41:43 <ais523> open the menu, click on the applications icon at the bottom (which looks sort-of like an A), then click on "installed"
22:41:57 <\oren\> why is it three clicks away
22:42:28 <ais523> because it's rarely used
22:42:51 <\oren\> and why isn't it labeled simply "all programs" like on windows 7
22:44:52 <\oren\> I never discovered it until I had given up and switched to XFCE
22:46:06 <ais523> well, I think it's fairly obvious that you'd click on the "applications" icon in order to get a list of applications
22:46:28 <ais523> and the third click is very obvious, given that it shows your most recently used applications and gives an option to see all of them
22:46:38 <\oren\> "installed"?
22:47:28 <ais523> the full text is: "Installed See 166 more results >"
22:47:33 <ais523> at the start of a short list of programs
22:47:42 <ais523> you click on that to get the full list
22:47:48 <\oren\> also, this is since when. I haven't used Ubuntu since version 11.04
22:48:27 <\oren\> well technically, I have, but not regularly
22:48:57 <shachaf> \oren\: how's your build system project doing today?
22:49:24 <\oren\> shachaf: I'm not in charge of the build system
22:49:39 <shachaf> the project to become in charge of fixing it
22:50:25 <shachaf> just learn from facebook, yo
22:50:27 <shachaf> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0xLl-UUAAd7nz.jpg
22:51:03 <\oren\> 11.04 is when they ruined the UI, so after wrestling with it for months learning to customize it into something resembling usabilty, I gave up and apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
22:51:14 <ais523> the first version of Unity was terrible, IIRC
22:51:18 <ais523> but it got better fairly quickly
22:51:34 <shachaf> Is it good now?
22:51:48 <shachaf> When I tried it about six months ago it still seemed pretty scow.
22:52:02 <\oren\> it still has the menus outside their proper windows and no normal applications menu
22:52:21 <\oren\> also, a weird dock instead of a taskbar
22:53:47 <oerjan> . o O ( that sounds a bit like old macOS. wait, i have no idea what OSX does... )
22:54:05 <shachaf> It does the same.
22:54:12 <\oren\> oerjan: OSX is just as shit an interface as old macs
22:54:31 <oerjan> OKAY
22:54:34 <shachaf> literally anything except what \oren\ is used to is utter scow
22:54:43 <ais523> shachaf: it's well-designed but badly-implemented
22:55:00 <shachaf> I'm using Cinnamon with Ubuntu now.
22:55:04 <shachaf> It's not ideal but it works.
22:55:59 <\oren\> shachaf: at first glance at the screenshot on wikipedia, cinnamon looks great
22:56:23 <oerjan> . o O ( today we'll show how to make a delicious vegan dish with cinnamon and ubuntu )
22:56:37 <\oren\> a normal desktop, a normal taskbar, a normal menu
22:58:21 <ais523> oerjan: there's actually a type of cola called ubuntu
22:58:27 <ais523> I don't know offhand whether it's vegan or not
22:58:42 <\oren\> and application menus are in the respective window for that application. WONDERFUL
22:58:44 <oerjan> hm, right
22:58:48 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what sort of dish would contain cinnamon and cola, I'm guessing it's a dessert though
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22:59:28 <shachaf> Doesn't Coca-Cola contain cinnamon?
22:59:30 <shachaf> Or did?
22:59:48 <oerjan> *cocaine hth
23:06:43 <FireFly> cocaine as spice… and here I thought spice was cannabis
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23:09:48 <\oren\> OH! so cinnamon is what Linux Mint uses!
23:10:11 <\oren\> that explains Mint's rise to the top of the Distrowatch
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23:31:02 <boily> @massages-loud
23:31:02 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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23:41:53 <DHeadshot> @tell wob_jonas Thanks!
23:41:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:45:00 <\oren\> wait, sourceforge isn't a malware ridden hellhole anymore?
23:46:19 <boily> he\\oren\. wut?
23:46:48 <\oren\> Apparently last year they stopped bundling malware with programs
23:47:23 <\oren\> http://www.ghacks.net/2016/02/10/good-news-sourceforge-stops-bundling-adware-with-installers/
23:49:46 <\oren\> Cnet is still a malware ridden hellhole though
23:53:55 <boily> Cnet is the reference hellhole.
23:55:04 <DHeadshot> Speaking of which, is there a decent site that'll let me host the free software I write that isn't open-source? I normally use dropbox but they don't like it...
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23:58:41 <huh> Here's the thing. You said "freeware is free software." Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that. As someone who is a scientist who studies free software, I am telling you, specifically, in programming, no one calls freeware "free software". They're not the same thing. If you're saying "freeware" you're referring to the taxonomic grouping of Gratisdae, which includes things from...
23:58:42 <huh> ...GPL to shareware to public domain.
23:59:07 <huh> It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
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00:00:08 <DHeadshot> I mean Freeware in the 1990s sense. Free software that you can donate to if you so wish but otherwise just use because it's convenient.
00:00:14 <DHeadshot> Shareware is different
00:00:50 <shachaf> Not to be confused with sharware, which is software distributed in a shell archive.
00:01:04 <DHeadshot> True
00:03:13 -!- Cale has joined.
00:06:35 <\oren\> I like shar
00:07:41 <boily> today I managed to build an executable jar. it was way too complex.
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00:10:53 <\oren\> hi hppa 2
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00:15:40 <\oren\> hmm, I wonder what bit numbers have never been used
00:19:12 <boily> ?
00:19:38 <\oren\> for example, has anyone made a 13-bit computer?
00:19:59 <\oren\> or a 128 bit computer
00:21:27 <boily> “The IBM System/370 could be considered the first simple 128-bit computer, as it used 128-bit floating-point registers.” ― https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit
00:24:17 <boily> Wikipédia lists 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 18, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 32, 34, 36, 39, 40, 48, 50, 60 and 64-bit architectures.
00:24:52 <boily> there are also weird oddities here and there, at least one 6-trit architecture, and a bunch of decimal digit archs.
00:25:19 <\oren\> apollo guidance computer, 15 bit
00:27:31 <\oren\> oh, it was 16 bits but one bit was just a parity
00:27:54 <\oren\> good idea, given space radiation and all
00:30:34 <\oren\> every memory read and memory write was checked for parity
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00:56:26 <DHeadshot> Wasn't the Sega Dreamcast 128 bit, at which point everyone gave up on the bit wars because it had got rather silly?
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01:08:25 <fizzie> I don't think the Dreamcast is any more "128 bit" as x86 SIMDy things.
01:09:13 <fizzie> It's got a plain old-fashioned 32-bit SH-4 CPU, and a "four 32-bit floats" SIMD thing.
01:09:36 <fizzie> Although I'm sure that's good enough to use the term "128-bit" in marketing.
01:09:43 <DHeadshot> Huh. I was always told that it and the PS2 were 128-bit...
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01:09:52 <shachaf> What does it mean to be n-bit?
01:10:05 <DHeadshot> Traditionally, n-bit databus
01:10:06 <fizzie> If it was, then I'm typing this on a 256-bit system.
01:10:27 <DHeadshot> though if that was true, serial computers would be 1-bit...
01:11:26 <DHeadshot> And the original PC would be 8-bit (time division multiplexed 16-bit)
01:13:03 <fizzie> "With no further qualification, a 64-bit computer architecture generally has integer and addressing processor registers that are 64 bits wide, allowing direct support for 64-bit data types and addresses. However, a CPU might have external data buses or address buses with different sizes from the registers, even larger (the 32-bit Pentium had a 64-bit data bus, for instance[2]). The term may ...
01:13:09 <fizzie> ... also refer to the size of low-level data types, such as 64-bit floating-point numbers."
01:13:26 <fizzie> That seems to be the Wikipedia definition, which is relevant for that list above.
01:14:16 <DHeadshot> x86 is a weird one, because the smallest registers are 8 bit and the biggest up to 64 bit
01:14:49 <boily> x86 is a whole nother of weirdness.
01:15:31 <DHeadshot> The HD6303 had 2 8-bit accumulators that could be combined into a 16-bit accumulator, just as the 8086 had with AH/AL/AX, yet the HD6303 was described as 8-bit...
01:15:40 <shachaf> x86 is 80-bit at least
01:15:45 <shachaf> Or is that only x87?
01:16:10 <DHeadshot> shachaf: same thing since the pentium...
01:16:28 <shachaf> So x means 5 or more?
01:16:47 <DHeadshot> ?
01:18:32 <fizzie> The definition did say "integer and addressing".
01:19:27 <shachaf> I was just looking at the last sentence.
01:19:55 <DHeadshot> The HD6303 had a 16-bit index register, a 16-bit address bus and with it's combined 16-bit accumulator is as much 16 bit as the 8086, surely?
01:20:20 <fizzie> Z80 is in the same camp.
01:20:30 <fizzie> Yet everyone counts it as 8-bit.
01:20:36 <fizzie> Well, many people, anyway.
01:21:26 <DHeadshot> Z80 had no 16-bit accumulator. Neither did the 6502. The HD6303 did.
01:23:47 * DHeadshot has been reading a lot about the HD6303X recently...
01:24:55 <fizzie> What do you mean, no 16-bit accumulator?
01:25:02 <fizzie> It can do a lot of stuff 16-bit.
01:25:28 <fizzie> Including adding things.
01:25:55 <DHeadshot> Z80 has an 8-bit accumulator and 6 8-bit general purpose registers that can be paired to be 16-bit
01:26:13 <fizzie> That's a ridiculous distinction.
01:26:24 <fizzie> You can increment a 16-bit register pair.
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01:26:29 <DHeadshot> they aren't accumulators technically
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01:29:56 <fizzie> Sure, you can't do everything with them, but AIUI, you can't do everything on the 16-bit pair of the HD6303 either.
01:30:23 <DHeadshot> perhaps
01:30:39 * DHeadshot crawls back into his hole
01:31:48 <fizzie> Admittedly even the Z80 user manual reserves the "accumulator" term for A. I just think it's a little silly.
01:32:36 <DHeadshot> A had functionality not afforded to the other registers, just as AX has over BX, CX and DX...
01:34:18 <fizzie> C has unique functionality as well, and it doesn't get a catchy name.
01:34:22 <fizzie> Time for a petition.
01:34:49 <fizzie> ("IN r, (C)" and "OUT (C), r".)
01:35:01 <DHeadshot> Is it accumulating functionality though?
01:35:34 <DHeadshot> In x86, they all have names: Accumulator, Base register, Counter and Data register...
01:35:49 <fizzie> HL serves as the "16-bit accumulator", arguably.
01:35:59 <DHeadshot> Possibly
01:36:21 <zzo38> I don't know much Z80 programming; I know the 6502 programming though, which has A, X, and Y register, and the operations available on each are different (although some operations are available for more than one of them or for all of them).
01:37:00 <DHeadshot> I thought the 6502 had a B too? Or is that just the 6800 on which it was based?
01:37:40 <zzo38> 6502 has no B register
01:37:55 <DHeadshot> Maybe processors are just too different to conform to our taxonomies...
01:38:19 <DHeadshot> and with that, it's 1:40 AM here. I'm off to bed.
01:38:28 <zzo38> Although the video processor instruction set in a computer design I made has A and B registers (each 8-bits), it is somewhat based on 6502 but there are many differences.
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01:47:16 <fizzie> The TI TMS320C54xx series of DSPs has two accumulators, A and B, each 40 bits wide. (In addition, it has 8 16-bit auxiliary registers AR0 to AR7, and one 16-bit temporary register T.)
01:48:02 <fizzie> I think people call it a 16-bit DSP, even though it's got those 40-bit accumulators.
01:48:04 <zzo38> O, OK I did not know that, now I do
01:48:38 <fizzie> The memory is word-addressilble with a word size of 16, so probably that's fair.
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03:23:08 <\oren\> https://snag.gy/AokWHh.jpg
03:23:17 <\oren\> how am i flying i dont even
03:23:58 <\oren\> not even remotely shaped like an aeroplane
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03:33:21 <krok_> maybe there should be an #esoteric-offtopic
03:33:50 <int-e> supporting the center of gravity... why wouldn't it fly?
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03:54:41 <quintopia> @tell krok_ maybe there should be an #esoteric-offtopic <- that's what #esoteric-blah is for, i think
03:54:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:55:51 <shachaf> I thought that's what #esoteric was for, and #esoteric-blah is for spam.
03:58:33 <doesthiswork> That explains why #esoteric-ontopic is empty
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07:06:03 <zzo38> I made up a preprocessor for OpenGL shader program to be able to write fractions with slashes, and then I wrote this fragment program: http://sprunge.us/HcjK Do you like this?
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09:42:21 <mroman> int-e: Thanks.
09:42:40 <oerjan> mrelloman
09:43:08 <mroman> It's probably time for cgi.hs to display a textarea instead of a one line input box :D
09:45:38 <int-e> hdbc, seriously?
09:47:46 <mroman> oh
09:47:51 <mroman> I can make that conditionally
09:47:56 <mroman> so you don't need it when building without IO
09:48:02 <mroman> unless that was a complaint about HDBC itself
09:48:07 <mroman> but yes
09:48:14 <mroman> need it for MySQL
09:48:19 <mroman> Burlesque can now do DB stuff
09:48:20 <mroman> \o/
09:48:55 <int-e> setup: The program 'mysql_config' is required but it could not be found <--- hdbc-mysql doesn't build without mysql, so making that optional would be a good idea, I think
09:52:16 <int-e> (and I expect it'll want the mysql client library as well... just didn't get to that point)
09:52:54 <mroman> ok
09:52:58 <mroman> then i'll add some more ifdefs
09:57:07 <mroman> ok. pull and try again.
09:59:05 <mroman> need MySQL so I can write websites in it .
09:59:23 <mroman> I'm not planning on it.
10:00:13 <mroman> (and the support is lousy. Not all data types are even mapped)
10:00:28 <mroman> (Burlesque is lousy. The code is so underdocumented and garbage)
10:00:44 <mroman> (There's like runStack, runStack' and runStack'' and I have no idea what they were all for :D)
10:01:18 <mroman> the way to maintain Burlesque is to ignore all the crapiness and just keep adding stuff.
10:01:43 <mroman> If you don't know what existing stuff exactly does, don't change it, just add more stuff even if it's redundant :D
10:01:56 <int-e> . o O ( where "Burlesque" is a placeholder for any of 99% of all software projects on Earth )
10:02:45 <mroman> http://codepad.org/bILXgFqW <- it know even has better syntax
10:02:50 <mroman> like procedures and stuff
10:03:05 <mroman> but it's just hacked on top of stuff that was hacked on top of some other stuff
10:04:27 <int-e> just say you're building your code on top of an existing framework.
10:04:33 <mroman> but in theory
10:04:47 <mroman> you could now create wrapper procs for all builtins
10:04:54 <mroman> like proc reverse { <- } proc add { ?+ }
10:04:55 <mroman> etc.
10:05:02 <mroman> and it would start to look like a decent language :D
10:05:29 <mroman> also javascript style objects are already on the way
10:05:30 <mroman> :D
10:05:50 <mroman> now that I have I/O I can go completely nuts
10:06:38 <mroman> like mutable hashmaps
10:07:19 <mroman> and this point I'm sure to win "crappiest language on earth" AND "crappiest implementation on earth"
10:07:27 <mroman> *at this
10:08:02 <mroman> but hey
10:08:05 <mroman> 2012 - 2017
10:08:09 <mroman> Burlesque is 5 years old!
10:08:27 <mroman> so we have 5 years of experience and 5 years of supporting customers!
10:08:39 <mroman> and not yet one customer has ever complained
10:08:55 <int-e> anyway it builds... and I've updated it on the VM
10:09:00 <mroman> yay :)
10:09:38 <mroman> so I guess I can update the link on my website
10:10:05 <int-e> I had an old version of the cgi there anyway, but I guess you saw that
10:10:50 <mroman> yep
10:11:17 <mroman> I actually use blsq
10:11:20 <mroman> %in? ln{WD^p'/;;[~'-;;-]{}j_+j_+ri}m[ ><{0!!j0!!==}gb{J0!!0!!j)[~++@1024?/@1024?/@1024?/{}j_+j+]}m[sp
10:11:24 <mroman> that's some code I wrote today
10:11:51 <mroman> to parse some log file with file sizes
10:13:04 <oerjan> . o O ( you should make a build system in it, right \oren\ ? )
10:13:57 <mroman> there was a directory with files in it and I need to copy them to some other system through another system and there's not enough space on disk to do it in a whole bunch
10:14:15 <mroman> so the code above groups the files into "groups of files" and their file sizes
10:14:25 <mroman> so I know how/what I can copy them
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10:18:09 <mroman> also... threads :D
10:18:28 <mroman> gotta go with time and paralell processing is a nice feature
10:20:44 <mroman> there are so many languages like Burlesque, Golfscript, Flogscript
10:20:54 <mroman> nowadays
10:21:11 <mroman> thanks to PPCPG on stackoverflow.
10:21:41 <mroman> so I need to add features to be able to make Burlesque stand out from the rest :p
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10:31:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: ayt?
10:31:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: In M:tG, remember I complained how the phrasing of the Spreading Seas ability is really opaque, and I suggested a reworded ability could make the enchanted land be a copy of a template pristine Island straight from the Gatherer?
10:32:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: I just found a precedent for that: Peacekeeper Avatar (Vanguard) http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=182281 works that way.
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10:49:46 <mroman> also redecorated the webpage (http://mroman.ch/burlesque/) :p
10:57:39 <mroman> Can't I just hire an indian to write the documentation for me :(
10:58:06 <mroman> Or any other person from countries I could actually afford to hire anybody.
11:00:14 <mroman> or I could get some of my students to do it.
11:00:14 <mroman> hm.
11:14:10 <b_jonas> mroman: if you have students, that can help with boring tasks like that. just make sure to prioritize and not overwork them, so they can also grade exams and teach and stuff like that.
11:15:47 <Taneb> I need to apply to be a student again soo
11:15:50 <Taneb> n
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11:47:04 <boily> @tell oerjan !nitam najrøb
11:47:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:49:53 <Taneb> bonjoily
12:09:15 <boily> Tanelle!
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12:21:18 <mroman> well you can't really ask students for personal favours.
12:21:30 <mroman> it's probably not illegal
12:21:31 <mroman> but still
12:21:42 <mroman> it sounds wrong.
12:23:06 <b_jonas> mroman: of course not. the task they help you in has to be a professional one.
12:23:27 <b_jonas> you're not asking favors, you're giving them tasks for their employment.
12:23:34 <b_jonas> boring tasks
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16:45:57 <\oren\> hippa~
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16:57:00 <\oren\> hackego is back!
16:57:20 <\oren\> `botsnack
16:57:24 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
16:59:26 <b_jonas> oh hey look! everyday heroes comics ("http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/") has posted two strips and a filler strips, after a hiatus of like 11 months.
17:00:36 <b_jonas> `everydayheroeslist
17:00:37 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: everydayheroeslist: not found
17:00:39 <\oren\> smack jeeves? I remember there was a browser toolbar named ask jeeves a long time ago
17:01:10 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think that's because Jeeves is like some nickname for some common given name in American or something
17:01:22 <b_jonas> or not
17:01:40 <b_jonas> hmm
17:01:53 <Taneb> There was a search engine called Ask Jeeves
17:02:09 <Taneb> After the PG Wodehouse character from Jeeves and Wooster, famously played by Stephen Fry
17:03:16 <\oren\> Taneb: I only remember the toolbar, which was really hard to uninstall, you had to delete fiels and registry keys manually
17:03:38 <Taneb> I think Ask Jeeves was more of a thing in the UK
17:03:56 <Taneb> It folded in, like, 2007??? because everyone and their mum was using Google
17:04:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh, like the skype browser plugin that you can disable in the plugin settings, but keeps re-enabling itself every time skype updates itself?
17:05:38 -!- hppavilion2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:06:20 <b_jonas> and replaces every sequence of digits with a link to call that interpreted as a phone number in skype, everywhere in every webpage?
17:06:45 -!- ais523 has quit.
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17:07:04 <\oren\> WUT
17:07:39 <\oren\> oh god, that sounds like one of the worst browser cancers of the XP era, the dreaded red advertisement links
17:07:54 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, except that one is from the windows 7 era
17:09:05 <\oren\> wow you'd think microsoft would sanction skype for doing that crap
17:09:15 <b_jonas> it's worse than that web-based mailing list archive viewer they used to have on the gnu servers, which thought that if an at sign followed by a letter anywhere in the text of the mail, then it totally has to remove the surrounding part of the text for "spam protection" just in case it's an email address. mangles source code (especially perl) snippets you post on the mailing list unreadable through the archives.
17:09:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: how is microsoft involved? this was before microsoft bought skype, and the plugin applies for the firefox browser
17:10:01 <b_jonas> I think the firefox devs eventually broke the auto-enabler though
17:10:12 <\oren\> oh
17:10:13 <b_jonas> but it took a heck of a long time
17:10:39 <b_jonas> there may have been other skype plugins to non-XUL browsers too, I just don't know about thos
17:11:01 <b_jonas> I wasn't much of an internet explorer user
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17:12:33 <\oren\> apparently the red link disease still exists but they're green and double underlined these days
17:14:23 <\oren\> I dunno I never trusted cool cursor programs again after that.
17:16:25 <b_jonas> hehe
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17:20:12 <Zarutian> wasnt there some years back some .ico and .cur collections offered for free with no strings attached? I downloaded one and it was just a .zip file with instructions where to drag and drop the files. No turing executable code at all and all the files passed virus checkers and format conformity checkers too.
17:20:36 <ais523> Zarutian: well those don't make money, so they don't get advertised aggressively
17:20:48 <ais523> a few years, like every third advert was for "free smileys" or the like
17:21:10 <Zarutian> I have been wondering for a long while, intermittently, what that was about? My current hyppothesis is someone was just sick of seeing badly done icons and cursors.
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17:22:38 <\oren\> Zarutian: it was about spreading trojans
17:22:40 <Zarutian> though there were some intresting adverts on the download page. (Though no fake download buttons)
17:23:02 <\oren\> oh you mean the one you found
17:23:13 <Zarutian> \oren\: yebb.
17:24:15 <\oren\> well I mean I made by own font with 20000 characters because none of the ones I had suited my tastes perfectly
17:25:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, it has 20000 characters now? how many non-hangul ones?
17:25:13 <\oren\> so maybe a rogue graphic artist wanted to spread good icons around
17:25:21 <\oren\> b_jonas: let me check
17:25:39 <Zarutian> that I have seen but advertising it? Though it might be that the author(s) wanted to spread those cursors and icons and used the advertising revenue from the download page ads to pay for their own ads.
17:25:52 <oerjan> @messages-laud
17:25:52 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 38m 47s ago: !nitam najrøb
17:25:59 <int-e> Zarutian: it could also be malware
17:26:03 <\oren\> there are 20758 characters
17:26:24 <Zarutian> int-e: nope, as I said. Passed virus scanners and format checkers.
17:26:54 <\oren\> there are 11,172 precomposed hangul
17:27:31 <\oren\> `dc 20758 11172 - p
17:27:32 <HackEgo> dc: Could not open file 20758 11172 - p
17:27:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: maybe you should add a line to the bottom of allchars.htm telling how many non-hangul chars you have
17:27:45 <\oren\> ` dc <<'20758 11172 - p'
17:27:46 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:27:52 <\oren\> `` dc <<'20758 11172 - p'
17:27:53 <b_jonas> wait, the bot's back now?
17:27:53 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: warning: here-document at line 4 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `20758 11172 - p')
17:27:54 <Zarutian> virus scanners cant catch everything but if format checkers dont catch it then it is very unlikely that they could exploit something like libpng vulernabilities undetected
17:27:58 <int-e> \oren\: one more <
17:27:58 <b_jonas> there was a quote I wanted to add
17:28:07 <\oren\> `` dc <<<'20758 11172 - p'
17:28:08 <HackEgo> 9586
17:28:15 <b_jonas> `quote opposite of Gnome
17:28:16 <HackEgo> No output.
17:28:25 <b_jonas> `addquote <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
17:28:27 <HackEgo> 1308) <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
17:28:30 <b_jonas> `quote opposite of Gnome
17:28:31 <HackEgo> 1308) <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
17:28:40 <b_jonas> when did the bot come back?
17:28:52 <b_jonas> is the wiki back as writable too now?
17:28:59 <\oren\> 16:59
17:29:10 <\oren\> it's 17:32 right now
17:29:19 <ais523> huh, \oren\ is in the same timezone as me
17:29:26 <\oren\> (according to my server's time zone)
17:29:27 <ais523> \oren\: you don't live in Hexham do you?
17:29:35 <int-e> 17:54:28 --- HackEgo has joined #esoteric
17:29:45 <zzo38> It is still locked. When will you unlock it?
17:29:51 <int-e> (you already sorted out the time zone)
17:30:02 <int-e> \oren\: your clock is 3 minutes fast, I think
17:30:12 <\oren\> not sure how to fix that
17:30:34 <int-e> (barely resisting the temptation to say that it's 57 minutes slow)
17:30:40 <ais523> zzo38: there are two copies of the wiki; the "locked" one is the backup copy, which is permanently read-only (because changes to it wouldn't affect the main copy)
17:30:47 <\oren\> is there a variant of the date command that allows me to subtract
17:31:15 <ais523> `` date -d '1 hour ago'
17:31:16 <HackEgo> Fri Feb 3 16:31:12 UTC 2017
17:31:29 <b_jonas> ``` date +%s # unix epoch timestamp
17:31:30 <HackEgo> 1486143086
17:31:51 <ais523> also I'm disappointed that it isn't using a new zealand variant of UTC
17:32:01 <oerjan> <b_jonas> wait, the bot's back now? <-- OOOOOOH
17:32:09 <zzo38> ais523: Then how to use it?
17:32:20 <b_jonas> ais523: and it's the winter, so the people in Iceland (who are in permanent winter) are in the same timezone as you know as well
17:32:32 <int-e> `` date
17:32:33 <HackEgo> Fri Feb 3 17:32:29 UTC 2017
17:32:51 <ais523> zzo38: once the main server is back up, the esolangs.org name will be directed back at it (although that has to be done manually, probably by fizzie)
17:32:58 <zzo38> O, OK.
17:33:09 <\oren\> so, sudo date -s '3 minutes ago'?
17:33:32 <\oren\> yeah that worked
17:33:58 <\oren\> hehe the clock went back
17:34:16 <oerjan> `botsnack
17:34:17 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
17:34:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes. I usually write it as sudo date -s "now -180sec" or something, then kill -9 $$ after that so I don't accidentally repeat it from the bash history
17:34:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: since you're here, let me repeat what I tried to say from earlier
17:35:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK. Maybe I missed it before
17:35:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: In M:tG, remember I complained how the phrasing of the Spreading Seas ability is really opaque, and I suggested a reworded ability could make the enchanted land be a copy of a template pristine Island straight from the Gatherer?
17:35:33 <b_jonas> I just found a precedent for that: Peacekeeper Avatar (Vanguard) http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=182281 works that way.
17:36:29 <b_jonas> Now mind you, that might not mean much, because there's also the Momir Vig avatar card that creates a copy of a random creature card from all the cards available in the format or something
17:36:33 <zzo38> OK, but I think that way isn't very good.
17:36:42 <b_jonas> ok
17:36:45 <zzo38> (nor is the Momir Vig avatar, actually.)
17:37:00 <b_jonas> oh sure
17:37:13 <b_jonas> but that's a different problem
17:37:17 <zzo38> Effects should not depend on the database.
17:37:28 <ais523> b_jonas: IMO the phrasing should be "Enchanted land is an Island with '{T}: add {U} to your mana pool' and no other abilities"
17:37:44 <ais523> (note: this would work under the current rules but would be redundant; however it would allow the rules to be simplified)
17:37:47 <b_jonas> ais523: that doesn't work
17:37:52 <zzo38> ais523: I don't really like that either though.
17:37:57 <ais523> b_jonas: why not?
17:38:02 <b_jonas> ais523: wouldn't that apply the ability removal too high in the layers?
17:38:38 <ais523> it doesn't matter what the layer sequence is, because the "no other abilities" doesn't remove the ability that Spreading Seas grants itself due to the word "other"
17:38:46 <b_jonas> as in, wouldn't it remove abilities added by eg. Urborg, Tomb?
17:38:48 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> Still, those are *real people* we're disappointifying. Not just #esoteric regulars.
17:38:49 <HackEgo> 1309) <fizzie> Still, those are *real people* we're disappointifying. Not just #esoteric regulars.
17:39:11 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I wasn't trying to replicate the exact current interactions of the card with other cards
17:39:11 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean, it would remove too many abilities
17:39:23 <b_jonas> ais523: I didn't try to _exactly_ replicate it either
17:39:27 <b_jonas> just close enoguh to rarely make a difference
17:39:50 <b_jonas> copying a land on it differs too, eg. it would turn Dryad Arbor to a noncreature
17:40:19 <b_jonas> hmm
17:40:26 <zzo38> The subtype gives it the implicit ability "{T}: Add {U} to your mana pool" (i.e. that ability does not come directly from its text). I think that "normal Island" or something like that would work better to not change it too much.
17:40:33 <ais523> it wouldn't make Dryad Arbor a noncreature, it doesn't change permanent types
17:40:51 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean _my_ copying solution would turn Dryad Arbor to a noncreature
17:40:54 <ais523> fwiw, I think Islands should have an explicit ability "{T}: add {U} to your mana pool"
17:41:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ah right
17:42:05 <b_jonas> ais523: explicit as in not granted by the subtype?
17:42:13 <ais523> yes
17:42:19 <ais523> printed on the card, too!
17:42:58 <b_jonas> and you're not saying this only because the first printed versions of them had them printed, right? (I have some Fourth Edition Islands in fact).
17:43:18 <alercah> nah, don't need to print it on the card
17:44:24 <b_jonas> I don't really know if they should have an explicit ability, but if they would, I think it might be better if the rules said that the big mana symbol in the text box represents that ability, rather than printing the text.
17:44:35 <ais523> b_jonas: the first printed versions likely followed the same reasoning I am
17:44:48 <ais523> apparently they thought the giant mana symbol version was less confusing for new players
17:44:58 <ais523> although this has lead to a lot of players thinking that llanowar elves was some sort of tutor
17:45:23 <b_jonas> Printing the ability certainly makes teaching beginners easier (there's always beginners who keep confusing lands with mana), but it's distracting for later players, because basic lands are so common and so varied in appearance that the giant mana symbol makes them easier to recognize. You don't have to spend time reading the ability.
17:45:35 <ais523> hmm, maybe I should get the rules for my TCG that shachaf keeps pestering me about finished
17:45:41 <ais523> I had a fairly neat fix for this sort of issue
17:45:45 <b_jonas> "apparently they thought the giant mana symbol version was less confusing for new players" -- what? really?
17:45:48 <b_jonas> no way
17:45:57 <\oren\> I've updated the allchars.txt to include a count of non-hangul
17:46:49 <b_jonas> ais523: um... most TCGs don't have land cards producing mana, so the whole problem doesn't even come up. besides, it's easier to fix these things when you don't have to be compatible with, what, 20 years of history.
17:46:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh nice! thanks
17:47:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: wow, 20000 is a lot
17:47:57 <int-e> . o O ( Turing-Complete Game )
17:48:32 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think a newly defined trading card game would likely be turing complete
17:48:34 <ais523> int-e: like M:tG, you mean? :-)
17:48:44 <int-e> ais523: exactly.
17:48:47 <ais523> b_jonas: it's typically only a matter of the right cards being printed
17:48:49 <b_jonas> it takes lots of expansions to get enough crazy cards for that
17:48:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah
17:48:54 <ais523> in theory you could have a card that's Turing-complete by itself
17:48:58 <b_jonas> well sure
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17:49:09 <b_jonas> but most games don't aim for that
17:49:41 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtractpocalypse was inspired by FTL's scripting system, for what it's worth
17:49:58 <ais523> although that only has four variables, and the TCness proof needs more
17:50:15 <b_jonas> and I think some games actively try to avoid infinite resource completion by some resource ranking, so that every game ends in a finite time, and the game tree is limited by a smallish ordinal
17:51:51 <b_jonas> resource ranking as in some ordering of the kinds of resources such that you can get any of a kind of resource only by spending some of a resource that's greater in the ordering, and every resource is quantized so you can only have natural number of amounts of them
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17:56:40 <ais523> btw, there was just a wallop warning that this sort of thing might happen
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17:56:51 <ais523> (repeated very short netsplits, that is)
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18:10:04 * oerjan uses curl --connect-to to check that the real wiki is up
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18:17:20 * int-e has edited /etc/hosts
18:17:37 <int-e> and then I realized that I don't really have anything to edit on the wiki.
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18:27:11 <fizzie> Oh, it's back? I didn't even notice.
18:27:15 <fizzie> Let me flip the DNS then.
18:28:28 <zzo38> I think that Islands should not have the explicit ability "{T}: Add {U} into your mana pool", but it should have that printed as reminder text.
18:28:54 <zzo38> (Except for special versions with flavor text, which would omit the reminder text)
18:29:32 <int-e> do they still make those lands with just the name and artwork?
18:31:21 <ais523> int-e: they save them for special occasions
18:31:28 <ais523> the last time was Battle for Zendikar block
18:32:16 <ais523> which is widely regarded as one of the worst blocks to be released recently; they used full-art lands and Masterpiece cards in an attempt to get people to buy it anyway
18:32:50 <ais523> worst both in terms of undesirable cards and bad internal balance/playability
18:34:00 <fizzie> In retrospect, I should've set a TTL of less than a day for the temporary name.
18:34:11 <fizzie> Now it'll take a day again to propagate to.
18:34:23 <ais523> I tend to use 5-minute TTLs if there's any chance that I might need to change it in the near future
18:34:35 <fizzie> That would've been reasonable.
18:35:05 <fizzie> Let's plop the wiki bridge back up as well.
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18:36:19 <ais523> anyway, I visited the site and got the editable version
18:36:25 <ais523> so I think it's working?
18:36:50 <fizzie> Yes, I can see the right things with dig.
18:37:14 <fizzie> With the right @nameservers, that is.
18:38:03 <fizzie> In 9684 seconds, I should see it even without.
18:39:36 <int-e> wow, TTL is 55799 here
18:39:47 <int-e> (I'll survive that long)
18:40:11 <oerjan> . o O ( i thought you said you changed /etc/hosts )
18:41:00 <int-e> oerjan: I did. I can still query nameservers ;-)
18:41:41 <\oren\> I made a program to run every iteration of a long shell script to show it hasn't frozen
18:41:52 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/stars.c.htm
18:42:20 <oerjan> hm, there should be a way to ask a nameserver to drop a name from cache.
18:42:29 <\oren\> it displays a random goofy unicode symbol each second
18:43:12 <\oren\> if the symbol keeps changing, the script hasn't frozen
18:43:30 <int-e> oerjan: tricky, on whose authority?
18:43:56 <oerjan> int-e: there might be some throttling, in which case it should be harmless...
18:44:35 <int-e> oerjan: I'm trying to figure out whether this would simplify dns cache poisoning or make it harder.
18:44:38 <oerjan> hm except that might DOS the central one.
18:45:00 <oerjan> (if you sent it to many DNS servers)
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18:45:24 <int-e> (but I suspect that overall it would make it simpler... and yes there's a potential DoS vector there)
18:47:32 <oerjan> always complications
18:53:43 <\oren\> the solution to DoS is to use DOS
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18:55:24 <ais523> on Wikipedia, the only throttling used to be that "drop cache" requests had to be sent by POST unless you were logged in
18:55:31 <ais523> (to prevent them being hit by accident by spiders)
18:55:45 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if they added a CAPTCHA to it though
18:56:56 <\oren\> Hmm, maybe I'll write a Jelly interpreter in C
18:57:26 <quintopia> b_jonas: before i had to reboot, it seemed you were talking about game designer intentionally building hydrae out of resources. any evidence of that?
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18:59:11 <wob_jonas> quintopia: hydrae in what sense? I don't understand
18:59:17 <wob_jonas> oh, that sort of hydrae
19:01:54 <wob_jonas> quintopia: the only direct evidence I have is the Irregulars' goldfish cube, where the writeup tells it was designed that way:
19:02:04 <ais523> \oren\: make sure you use a bignum library, it's fairly important to many Jelly programs
19:03:14 <wob_jonas> http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/Cube_Design.html
19:04:31 <wob_jonas> quintopia: but I think to some amount the thought is there in M:tG design too, even if they don't completely insist on it. and sometimes they change the ordering, eg. recently they decided you can't just sacrifice your permanents for free in newer sets, despite that old sets have a lot of abilities with just sacrificing a creature as a cost,
19:05:00 <wob_jonas> so they're effectively moving sacrificing stuff up in the ordering, and can let you gain resources from stuff dying more easily
19:05:36 <wob_jonas> quintopia: even at the basic level, cards generally want to move in the order library -> hand -> stack -> battlefield -> graveyard -> exile and less often backwards, which is a form of this
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19:18:33 <zzo38> Where do the ante zone and command zone fit into this?
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19:56:11 <\oren\> hmm, there's javascript and coffeescript, but no lattescript or mochascript or cappucinoscript
19:56:19 <hppavilion1> `? FSM
19:56:20 <HackEgo> An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
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19:57:11 <\oren\> or what about mate script
19:57:44 <oerjan> . o O ( G'day, World! )
19:58:52 <\oren\> oerjan: I was thinking of the beverage made with yerba
19:59:04 <oerjan> i know.
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20:24:15 <Zarutian> I am wondering why freenode has these long timeouts, more infrequent timer interrupts or is it so that if someone is on flaky wifi isnt spamming channels with join and quit messages?
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20:32:45 <ais523> Zarutian: I often have a flaky connectoin and reach really high timeouts withotu disconnecting
20:43:14 <\oren\> I can't wait for LIFI to become commercial
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20:50:25 <Zarutian> \oren\: what is that?
20:54:36 <deltab> optical wireless
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21:00:36 <\oren\> it means that you have a blinking LED that blinks so fast it transmits the internet into your computer
21:02:08 <oerjan> just one internet?
21:02:52 <\oren\> as much internet as needed
21:03:10 <oerjan> fancy
21:03:24 <ais523> oerjan: internets have a tendency to get connected to each other, which makes them just a single internet again
21:03:27 <ais523> so there's only one really big one
21:04:46 <oerjan> that's the joke.gif
21:05:05 <ais523> there is more than one internet though (the other large ones tend to be military)
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21:13:40 <fizzie> There's a fancy hacky optical point-to-point network thing.
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21:13:54 <fizzie> http://ronja.twibright.com/
21:17:40 <fizzie> There's just something appealing of having a BEAM of DATA.
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21:25:26 <zzo38> I want to use a single-file key/value database where the keys are 32-bit numbers and the values are arbitrary binary data, in a way which is suitable for both reading and writing but mostly for reading.
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22:52:49 <\oren\> zzo38: if the value can be limited to for eixample, 1 KB, then you can use a 4 TB sparse file
22:54:56 <\oren\> and just use lseek64(fildes, key * 1024, SEEK_SET); and then read the value
22:55:59 <\oren\> however this may be considered a heinous abuse of a file system
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22:59:55 <zzo38> I do not want to use sparse files.
23:03:27 <\oren\> ok then, a simple and easy method would be to use SQLite
23:04:04 <shachaf> zzo38: Why single-file?
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23:05:29 <\oren\> a SQLite database is a single file
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23:59:47 <LKoen> zzo38: I have collected chess symbols for all the pieces from orwell chess; they can be printed and pasted on checkers pieces to make a physical set https://www.docdroid.net/dc9snGI/printable.pdf.html
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01:50:36 <zzo38> \oren\: The program is not written in C though; it is JavaScript
01:51:09 <zzo38> The file format used by SQLite4 may do, but I do not have the implementation in JavaScript
01:51:26 <DHeadshot> There's a version 4 of sqlite?
01:51:45 <DHeadshot> Website just lists 3 I think...
01:52:53 <zzo38> There is; version 4 uses a key/value storage as a backend storage format, where the key and value are both binary data. However I only needed a number as the key and not arbitrary data.
01:54:30 <shachaf> What's wrong with a format that supports arbitrary data as the key?
01:54:59 <zzo38> Mainly, is overdoing for my purpose.
01:56:01 <shachaf> Is sqlite4's key-value database good?
01:56:26 <shachaf> They say it's faster than LevelDB but they don't say for what. For everything?
01:56:27 <zzo38> I don't know actually
01:56:37 <zzo38> I have never used it
02:11:15 <krok_> i literally haven't seen any discussion of esoteric languages since i first joined this channel
02:13:36 <yorick> I should talk here, otherwise people forget I exist
02:13:45 <yorick> krok_: it happens sometimes
02:13:52 <yorick> I've seen it once or twice. I've been here for years
02:14:00 <zzo38> krok_: We don't always have, but if you have question about them, you can ask
02:14:16 <krok_> zzo38: thanks
02:27:09 <DHeadshot> I really ought to post my language somewhere so I can add it to the Wiki and have a source...
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03:08:06 <doesthiswork> I though the MtG stuff was esoteric-related
03:13:53 <alercah> tfw an entire evening of coding amounts to figuring out how to get the compiler installed
03:13:59 <alercah> thanks, cabal
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03:41:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Urbanangel * New user account
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04:17:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50833&oldid=50824 * Urbanangel * (+204) /* Introductions */
04:17:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50834 * Urbanangel * (+1400) Created page with "=== How it works === There are two variables, known as variable1 and variable2. You change these to manipulate code, output ASCII characters and change your position in the co..."
04:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50835&oldid=50834 * Urbanangel * (+1) /* Commands */
04:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50836&oldid=50835 * Urbanangel * (-1) /* Commands */
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04:19:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50837&oldid=50836 * Urbanangel * (-4) /* Hello World */
04:19:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50838&oldid=50837 * Urbanangel * (+1) /* Hello World */
04:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50839&oldid=50838 * Urbanangel * (+0) /* Hello World */
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07:22:51 <\oren\> suppose I have a set of exactly 4 values. would it be faster to call qsort or to do some fixed set of compare and swaps
07:23:58 <\oren\> more generally, at what fixed array size does it become faster to call a sort function than to do some fixed set of
07:24:18 <\oren\> if(a[i]>a[j])swap(a,i,j);
07:24:31 <\oren\> statements
07:25:06 <\oren\> I can sort 4 values with 5 compare swaps
07:28:52 <\oren\> not sure about 6
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07:31:33 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network hth
07:32:53 <izabera> qsort is a generic function
07:33:13 <izabera> it's never faster than any alternative
07:33:37 <izabera> calling an indirect function instead of cmp is too expensive
07:38:02 <\oren\> izabera: ok, but at what point does a sorting network become less efficient than an algorithm where ther sequence of comparisons is not fixed?
07:38:22 <\oren\> shachaf: thanks for the pointer
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08:33:43 <Jafet> qsort may be faster if the program runs for less time than the programmer spent writing it
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12:07:13 <int-e> `? password
12:07:14 <HackEgo> The password of the month is AАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑ
12:07:23 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7
12:07:25 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is n9y25ah7
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13:34:48 <boily> `wisdom
13:34:50 <HackEgo> maple//Maples are the sacred trees of Canada, from which a true Canadian can make anything.
13:34:53 <fizzie> int-e: Aqenbpuu.
13:34:55 <boily> WOOHOO!
13:35:18 <nooga> I always liked maples
13:35:20 <fizzie> boily: You don't have to be that happy it was about Canada.
13:35:41 <boily> the HackEgo is alive!
13:36:19 <int-e> fizzie: I'm sure we can have two potms for a good cause
13:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> `? mapole
13:45:22 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
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14:11:19 <boily> `relcome VisualizeR
14:11:21 <HackEgo> VisualizeR: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:12:00 <VisualizeR> hi boily, thanks for having me.
14:22:46 <int-e> so polite
14:22:49 <int-e> fungot: help!
14:22:49 <fungot> int-e: not running os x, you don't ever *have* to do that.
14:29:12 <boily> VisualizeR: what brings you here? do you like esolanging? what is your stance about roast beef?
14:30:25 <VisualizeR> I'm designing games, so I'm an artist. but I figured this is more about programming which I'm not so good at. roast beef is fine once in a month but I wouldn't want to have it any day.
14:31:18 <boily> nice! yes, this is about programming, at least the moments it is about programming...
14:32:02 <VisualizeR> haha yeah its always good to tunnel and come back some place and socialize, right?
14:33:46 <VisualizeR> I just set up freenode and the user count in the list was promising. so..is this about esoterics or not? and if so how is it connected to order information? does it help to shape benefitial thought patterns? what is the goal?
14:36:15 <boily> esoteric programming is fringe programming. it is exploring the limits of its meaning through creativity, poetry, absurdity and mental ankle sprains.
14:38:00 <VisualizeR> I'm aware of what esoterics is but I don't see how that helps in developing an efficient language. a coder might understand a side joke you put in there on purpose, but the computer running it doesn't.
14:40:17 <boily> we don't usually care about efficiency, just possibility. of course we sometimes discuss about regular languages.
14:41:40 <boily> there are a few mathematicians in this channel, a bunch of software developers, many bots, one cyborg, and fungot.
14:41:41 <fungot> boily: it would need bindings to c++ and see what happens? did you try to index it out of two apples, a roll of string and a piece of functional perl: perl -e ' print &&sub my f shift; return sub my n shift; return 1 if n 2; return &&f(f)(n-1) &&f(f)(n-2); )(8), " deep copies" and " after
14:42:06 <nooga> this
14:43:06 <nooga> VisualizeR: esolangs are games in some sense
14:43:17 <int-e> . o O ( I suspect boily's better at spraining ankles than most )
14:44:20 -!- int-e has set topic: The international hub for Esoteric Mentalism | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
14:44:35 <int-e> `? pun
14:44:36 <HackEgo> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
14:44:53 <VisualizeR> I see, you're meta philosophising about how it should be and how to get there. in order to make possibilities graspable I'd always try to visualize them. So personally I think visual coding is the best way to achieve permutations when you already set up a system. the end user should be able to operate it at will and create them.
14:46:40 <int-e> boily: wait, a cyborg?
14:47:46 <boily> myndzi.
14:48:04 <int-e> ^celebrate
14:48:04 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
14:48:15 <int-e> seems broken.
14:48:25 <int-e> well, absent really :)
14:48:48 <int-e> we still need a spider who talks about endoskeletons ( https://xkcd.com/1530/ )
14:49:17 <int-e> `? golf
14:49:18 <HackEgo> Golf is the shortest game known. The goal is to get a ball into a hole with a single stroke.
14:50:58 <myname> technically correct
14:51:09 <nooga> well, I thought about this recently and it occured to me that programming can be seen as just "instructing machines to take information from one abstract place, transform it and then put it in another abstract place"
14:51:53 <myname> your point being?
14:52:16 <nooga> but there are no constraints on the form of information and the machines at all
14:52:58 <VisualizeR> yup basically like ribosomes copying snippets of dna to form proteins, translation and transcription
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14:53:50 <nooga> for instance, yes
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14:59:17 <nooga> so then, visual programming is just another notation that helps people to think about what goes where and how the computation looks like
14:59:47 <nooga> but there are machines all the way down
15:00:41 <VisualizeR> they're just tools that compute faster
15:01:51 <nooga> but you can do that without any special "visual language"
15:02:17 <VisualizeR> a modular system that allows for combinations is the best system to have in my eyes. sure it only involves everything within system, bus this is why you need to made sure it has support for extentions.
15:02:50 <VisualizeR> the general user doesn't know about coding, they're used to moving a mouse and clicking stuff
15:04:15 <boily> functional programming is about that: transforming functions into other functions, and composing those functions together. it lends pretty well to visual and dataflow programming.
15:04:17 <VisualizeR> i'm thinking about better ways to teach kids programming right from the start because it can help them way better in the world we're heading to.
15:04:56 <boily> I think Lego NXT is the best effort out there to engage the next generation with programming.
15:05:54 <nooga> functional
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15:07:12 <nooga> I like minecraft, especially the tech mods
15:07:44 <VisualizeR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5mQxX-Zd0 I'm thinking about this game called codespells. they did it very well
15:08:24 <nooga> it's great stuff, it can teach you how to design scalable, distributed systems without ever mentioning it
15:10:05 <nooga> one problem with visual programming systems, such as puredata, is that eventually you end up with an unholy mess of wires
15:11:24 <nooga> and usually they don't implement any kind of metaprogramming facilities
15:12:49 <VisualizeR> isn't this regular capsuling of scripts?
15:12:50 <nooga> which is hard to visualise because it suddenly needs more dimensions
15:13:17 <nooga> yes, that's one dimension
15:14:19 <nooga> but how about having a block that can transform and spawn given subgraps and is programmed visually itself?
15:15:10 <VisualizeR> simply open up another type of scripts for every within that subsystem
15:15:31 <VisualizeR> *object
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15:17:41 <nooga> I'm not sure if that would be enough to go meta
15:20:56 <VisualizeR> it has to be self-sustaining, be relevant as a program and on top of that it can influence society. that is the meta level, so there needs to be hubs on each section branching to the subsystems depending on the desired content
15:21:11 <nooga> as for the kids... there should be something like "SICP for kids"
15:22:02 <boily> http://landoflisp.com/ ?
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15:22:58 <nooga> yeeeeaaahhh but without mentioning LISP
15:24:32 <nooga> just uh, teaching youngsters about computation without imposing any particular programming system
15:25:33 <nooga> because this kind of thinking isn't much harder to learn than algebra
15:26:05 <nooga> and gives you something that laymen see as a superpower
15:26:41 <nooga> you can tell machines what to do and use them to make changes in the world
15:27:23 <nooga> brb
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15:30:25 <VisualizeR> personally I think the biggest problem nowadays is we have too much freedom on one hand and too little of it on the other. it would require teaching them why it is beneficial. it needs something like an entry drug and games are perfect for that. this is about having one option or many to choose from and most people stick to one thing after they have found "their" thing.
15:32:19 <VisualizeR> so when you talk to people about why they should use this particular language you use and why they should too this is like talknig about religion or other products. our personal view biases us into limiting our own view. we like to go to the biggest system around and simply go with it. I know this doesn't apply to you guys.
15:32:23 <VisualizeR> just saying that it is free will if people choose to have one or many options
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15:53:39 <mroman> I think visual programming is great for domain specific things.
15:54:40 <mroman> but anyway
15:54:46 <mroman> the difficulty in programming is not the way you do it.
15:54:54 <mroman> whether it's a graphical language or a non-graphical one
15:55:05 <mroman> A for loop is a for loop.
15:56:36 <VisualizeR> who decides that the logic used within is the best there is?
15:58:18 <mroman> http://codepad.org/snRrxLzj <- there
15:58:26 <mroman> that's the transcript from the codespells video
15:58:38 <mroman> aside that there are no blue, pink, green boxes around the text
15:58:41 <mroman> it's literally the same thing.
15:59:19 <mroman> it's just a fancier way of displaying text.
15:59:22 <mroman> that's pretty much it.
16:00:10 <VisualizeR> that is exactly what is needed ^^ synesthetics help to differentiate content
16:00:26 <VisualizeR> *synaesthesia
16:00:49 <boily> VisualizeR: people who write compilers and core libraries decide what is, within a given programming language, the Best Way To Do Things™.
16:01:13 <VisualizeR> i totally understood what you mean tho, the logic is the same but the presentation differs
16:01:16 <mroman> and what boily said
16:01:25 <mroman> people don't decide what language to use on the language.
16:01:34 <mroman> they decide it on the language's ecosystems.
16:01:54 <mroman> because most languages are pretty much the same, same powerful so language differences are mostly completely irrelevant.
16:01:57 <boily> the semantic of what you write is independent of the actual physical process that happens in your machine. what mroman said: a for loop is a for loop.
16:02:09 <mroman> the only real constraints anymore are memory management and type safety
16:02:56 <VisualizeR> so they're like different tools, each one is best for a specific task
16:03:08 <mroman> languages?
16:03:09 <mroman> no.
16:03:27 <mroman> you can translate pretty much any language easily into any other language
16:03:36 <mroman> you can easily translate perl to python, python to ruby, ruby to php
16:03:38 <mroman> no problem.
16:04:07 <boily> all mainstream languages are (almost) mathematically equivalent. it's just the subjective ease you can describe a task in a programming language that will differ from another one.
16:04:12 <VisualizeR> so what is best for the ecosystem then?
16:04:24 <mroman> these languages are mostly only different in syntax
16:04:30 <mroman> and syntax is easy to "translate"
16:04:33 <VisualizeR> yep got that
16:04:55 <mroman> the problem is that you can't translate library calls because they don't have the same libraries.
16:05:16 <VisualizeR> this makes some languages more efficient in certain tasks, right?
16:05:40 <mroman> although to be fair they have different OOP so some edge-cases are probably a bit harder to translate
16:05:42 <boily> you're always building upon previous work. a task may be easier in one language because some guy did the grunt work for you.
16:05:59 <mroman> but these details aren't really what you decide on which languages you should use.
16:06:10 <mroman> Why do people use PHP for webdev?
16:06:15 <mroman> very simple.
16:06:21 <mroman> because it's installed everywhere on free hosters.
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16:06:27 <LKoen> because they don't know about javascript
16:06:38 <mroman> why do people use javascript for webdev?
16:06:43 <mroman> because there's no other language available.
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16:07:20 <mroman> people mostly use python because it has a HUGE set of packages available
16:08:13 <mroman> so good ecosystem means
16:08:30 <mroman> a.) lots of packages b.) lots of bindings to c libraries (such as gtk, databases, etc. etc.)
16:09:01 <mroman> In python i can do import rest; rest.call('/method', blurks);
16:09:12 <mroman> but that's not because of python it's because somebody took the time to write a nice package
16:09:23 <mroman> in haskell I'd probably have to set up http requests manually and stuff like that
16:09:34 <VisualizeR> so the most important part are those core libraries which define the functions the language will have. it probably is a child of the time and can't possibily fit any future needs, right? so it is about keeping it alive and up to date.
16:09:39 <mroman> so if I just want to do some rest request I'll probably use python, even though I don't like python as a language.
16:10:21 <boily> VisualizeR: core libraries are in constant fluctuation. active development is perpetual, to fix security bugs, add new features, optimize stuff...
16:10:25 <mroman> in the prof. java/js scene it's more about frameworks even
16:10:30 <mroman> you don't look for a javascript developer
16:10:31 <mroman> nope
16:10:37 <mroman> you look for somebody who knows angular
16:10:44 <mroman> or whatever your company is using.
16:11:01 <mroman> java it's the same
16:11:06 <mroman> guice, spring ....
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16:12:10 <mroman> you can give a kid a visual programming IDE
16:12:18 <mroman> but it won't write a dijkstra in it
16:12:20 <mroman> :D
16:12:42 <mroman> because the kid knows shit about algorithms and math and science
16:13:29 <VisualizeR> exactly this is why a game is good, it can see the strength of the avatar change with the numbers
16:13:37 <mroman> the only point I could agree on is that visual programming might make kids more motivitated to code
16:13:43 <mroman> but not because it makes it any easier or different
16:13:50 <mroman> but because it looks more interesting to little kids
16:13:57 <VisualizeR> true, I agree
16:13:59 <mroman> because it's presented in colours.
16:14:28 <mroman> CBS presents this program in colour.
16:14:40 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
16:15:07 <mroman> I know nothing about how red eye correction works
16:15:19 <mroman> but if you give me a function "red-eye-correction(Image img);" I can do it
16:16:33 <VisualizeR> ^^
16:17:10 <mroman> the existence of that function is much more important than the language.
16:17:21 <mroman> or IDE
16:17:23 <mroman> or editor
16:17:24 <VisualizeR> I'm rather in need of procedual textures combined with procedual music and a detection of the music the manipulate the textures and animations with
16:17:24 <mroman> or whatever
16:17:34 <VisualizeR> *that
16:19:53 <mroman> that's why you can teach people to write apps
16:20:07 <mroman> without teaching them anything about algorithms and stuff
16:20:10 <mroman> no need to know
16:20:57 <mroman> which is good. I don't oppose that. but I still think anything related to visual programming is too hyped
16:21:35 <mroman> most people used vb6 because it had an UI to write GUI code.
16:22:01 <mroman> that's a useful application of "visual programming" but it's very domain specific.
16:22:24 <VisualizeR> like you initially said
16:23:15 <mroman> what's also a good use is to have some model you can visually create and then write codegenerators for that
16:23:32 <mroman> CIRO or whatever that was called
16:23:47 <mroman> you can describe state machines in that, then generate the code for it.
16:24:04 <mroman> then you only need to write code to read/write from pins/io ports manually
16:24:12 <mroman> i.e. used for embedded systems
16:24:36 <mroman> that's also a good application for "visual programming" but also domain specific as it's limited to state machines and i/o systems
16:26:59 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
16:27:48 <mroman> not that I think video games are a goodthing.
16:27:50 <mroman> but meh.
16:28:02 <mroman> I'm probably the only computer scientist that actually hates most of the computer related stuff :D
16:28:15 <mroman> like facebook
16:28:17 <mroman> or video games
16:28:23 <mroman> or social media sites
16:28:27 <mroman> except IRC of course.
16:28:37 <mroman> IRC is great. It's true. Best chat in the world.
16:29:08 <mroman> or dating apps
16:29:10 <int-e> hmm, you know that there are offline video games that you can play all by yourself in your own time, no pressure?
16:29:21 <nooga> I hate computers too
16:29:30 <mroman> offline games are fine iff they have splitscreen.
16:29:34 <nooga> I don't like to care about them as machines
16:29:53 <mroman> dating apps is a pretty bad invention.
16:29:55 <int-e> computers are nice as long as they work
16:30:06 <mroman> It seems like it benefits everybody but it actually doesn't.
16:30:19 <int-e> sometimes they're also fun to trouble-shoot, but basically only when I don't actually urgently need them
16:30:19 <nooga> yeah, they should work and it's technicians' job to tend to them
16:30:31 <mroman> and software is mostly crap
16:30:37 <mroman> and OS are mostly crap too
16:30:41 <mroman> from a security perspective
16:30:53 <int-e> so far the solution to the software problem has been to write more software
16:30:57 <int-e> find the mistake.
16:31:10 <nooga> thing is
16:31:11 <mroman> you need built-in "selinux" stuff in your OS
16:31:14 <mroman> then we can talk about security
16:31:15 <mroman> otherwise
16:31:18 <mroman> nope.
16:31:37 <int-e> selinux?
16:31:44 <nooga> this field is so vast, you can zoom in and out, circle the globe and read everything
16:31:51 <mroman> you know... very fine grained ACL for processes, users, file systems etc.
16:31:52 <int-e> I think ASLR is the only "security" feature that's really in use here...
16:32:19 <nooga> and you still can't have a consistent idea about how everything works
16:32:21 <int-e> mroman: I'm vaguely aware, I think is a fair description.
16:32:26 <mroman> rm -rf /home/$USER
16:32:41 <int-e> mroman: *poof*
16:32:48 <mroman> you can send a windows guy a bat file del /S %HOME%/Documents
16:32:51 <mroman> if he double clicks it
16:32:52 <mroman> he's fucked
16:33:01 <mroman> that's how good security is on modern operating systems.
16:33:07 <int-e> does / work for \ there?
16:33:13 <mroman> probably not
16:33:14 <mroman> :D
16:33:20 <mroman> my admin days are behind me
16:33:35 <mroman> It works in some cases
16:33:52 <mroman> but that's probably python/java secretly translating / to \
16:34:01 <int-e> I encountered http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/ these days, fun to read.
16:34:18 <mroman> if you have a bug in Word.exe
16:34:21 <mroman> it can delete all your documents
16:34:25 <mroman> I don't call that security.
16:34:41 <mroman> I have talked with people at work about how to solve the problem
16:34:49 <mroman> but they just laughed at me and told me "It'll never happen"
16:34:53 <mroman> and I guess they are right.
16:35:01 <mroman> There's no money in security apparentely
16:35:12 <int-e> right
16:35:18 <int-e> there's money in selling AV products
16:35:25 <mroman> yeah
16:35:27 <nooga> sigh
16:35:29 <mroman> but that's a crappy solution to the problem.
16:35:40 <int-e> it's not a solution
16:35:43 <int-e> it's just crap.
16:35:53 <nooga> I remember the times when you got a CIH on a floppy with pirated game and it fried your motherboard
16:36:02 <mroman> they've been bragging about heuristics for 10 years now
16:36:03 <nooga> these were the viruses
16:36:04 <mroman> or even more
16:36:11 <mroman> a.) it doesn't work
16:36:16 <mroman> b.) even if it would: it's a crappy solution.
16:36:22 <nooga> nowadays it's just spyware, ransomware and crapware
16:36:28 <nooga> disgusting
16:36:54 <mroman> I want fine grained permissions per process and user etc.
16:37:02 <mroman> and software needs to drop privileges
16:37:08 <mroman> so it's only working with minimal privileges.
16:37:16 <nooga> do you?
16:37:23 <mroman> if you open word foo.doc
16:37:24 <nooga> it just means more management
16:37:33 <mroman> you need to drop all privileges except to that file
16:37:38 <mroman> do I what?
16:37:43 <mroman> No OS currently supports this.
16:37:50 <nooga> < mroman> I want fine grained permissions per process and user etc.
16:37:53 <int-e> http://robert.ocallahan.org/2017/01/disable-your-antivirus-software-except.html was another nice article; https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/03/security_threat_solutions/?mt=1486125905262 is also relevant.
16:37:57 <mroman> I want that yes.
16:38:08 <nooga> how would that look like in practice?
16:38:15 <mroman> but it means you gonna have to start from scratch and design an OS with security in mind SINCE THE START.
16:38:35 <mroman> nooga: a.) you configure what parts of the filesystem a process can even see etc.
16:38:38 <mroman> very fine grained.
16:38:43 <mroman> you have security contexts
16:38:50 <mroman> you can narrow a securyt contexts
16:38:53 <nooga> and one day some smart kid will crack even this
16:39:44 <int-e> mroman: you're right in principle, but a key question is how to make all this usable and understandable for laypeople.
16:39:47 <Zarutian> mroman: hmm.. design an OS with security in mind from the start? Have you heard about capros?
16:40:07 * Zarutian is just catching up.
16:40:29 <mroman> int-e: Well the problem is I don't give a fuck about laypeople.
16:40:32 <nooga> what about unikernels? maybe just box up every application
16:40:33 <int-e> (though I guess a lot could be done by versioned file systems that allow people to go back in time?)
16:40:36 <mroman> If software developers would do a better job it would work
16:40:44 <nooga> and run them in a hypervisor
16:40:44 <mroman> but if they do a crappy job then FUCK them.
16:40:59 <int-e> (which is quite different from what you're suggesting, of course)
16:41:03 <mroman> just look at all the crappy windows installers out there and shit.
16:41:18 <nooga> do they still exist?
16:41:27 <int-e> and perhaps executing programs should be a more privileged operation...
16:42:17 <int-e> but basically most of the programs are written for embedded devices (which we're just starting to perceive as an attack surface) and consumer devices (which are sold by usability, not security)... we're, essentially, doomed.
16:42:20 <nooga> (last time I've used windows was in 2008)
16:43:03 <mroman> http://codepad.org/pbo1ADdF <- like that
16:43:08 <mroman> security contexts are like stacks or something
16:43:14 <mroman> you can always drop privileges
16:43:22 <mroman> and regain them later using a regain token
16:43:40 <mroman> and you can ask for more privileges at which point the OS will ask the user whether this is ok
16:43:42 <mroman> things like that.
16:43:55 <Zarutian> int-e: depends on the level of complexity of the embedded SOC. Just using an ARM with a Windows CE or such is not allowed to be primary control in an say a milling machine.
16:44:00 <mroman> a.) you need to configure the MAXIMUM security context for a process/user
16:44:14 <mroman> b.) software needs to drop and regain privileges as necessary.
16:44:27 <nooga> so you want to put middlewares on syscalls?
16:44:30 <Zarutian> mroman: congrats you just reinvented the "Mother may I?" problem that plaques systems such as seLinux
16:44:43 <nooga> Zarutian: XD
16:44:57 <mroman> Zarutian: What do you mean by that?
16:45:20 <mroman> and linux is crap anyway
16:45:24 <mroman> to heterogenous.
16:45:26 * Zarutian is part of rather long lived discussion group that has thought and written extensively about these matters.
16:45:46 <mroman> by which I mean the distros.
16:46:28 <nooga> I stopped worrying and learned to love OS X because it doesn't need anything from me and I just want emacs
16:46:39 <Zarutian> mroman: the "Mother may I?" problem? basically from your utterence of the phrase "at which point the OS will ask the user whether this is ok"
16:47:40 <mroman> well there's not really a way to avoid that.
16:47:51 <Zarutian> is there not hmm?
16:48:06 <mroman> the user decides what software can access which parts of his stuff.
16:48:13 <mroman> but
16:48:19 <Zarutian> think about "dont seperate designation and authority" for a bit and what that could mean
16:48:21 <mroman> you can hide lots of this from the user
16:48:27 <mroman> for example with filechooserdialogues
16:48:34 <mroman> which grant implicit permissions to the file you selected
16:48:42 <mroman> so the user doesn't even know that this was a security feature
16:48:55 <Zarutian> does filechooserdialogues return an filehandle instead of just a path string?
16:49:06 <mroman> the difference is that it's an OS dialogue
16:49:11 <mroman> not one from the software
16:49:21 <nooga> > PID 1234 at 0x0800000800012f wants to call sysapi_mgvgtbf2 to and will touch "/saou/ajsihaois/annsuoanus/tmp/asu_2872983323/f2f2ff2f201-c.ggg". [GO AHEAD] [NOPE]
16:49:24 <lambdabot> error:
16:49:24 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope:
16:49:24 <lambdabot> PID
16:49:31 <nooga> ^ this
16:49:34 <nooga> 20 times a second
16:49:42 <Zarutian> mroman: hmm.. basically an instance of an pattern called PowerBox
16:50:55 <Zarutian> nooga: you nailed it
16:51:57 <mroman> nooga: and?
16:52:06 <nooga> 40 times a second
16:52:10 <mroman> so?
16:52:17 <mroman> then the software is crap
16:52:20 <mroman> or your config is wrong.
16:52:21 <nooga> so your computer is useless
16:52:40 <mroman> it's a bad idea that all processes have the same /tmp anyway
16:52:58 <int-e> <mroman> then the software is crap <--- I thought that was one of the premises
16:53:11 <nooga> you could install a hand crank on it as well
16:53:27 <mroman> I would use an abstraction layer for the fs
16:53:31 <mroman> process only see a virtual filesystem
16:53:36 <mroman> and you can map stuff into that
16:53:46 <mroman> like map /tmp/httpd /tmp
16:53:48 <nooga> IMHO this is not a good idea for consumer grade computing
16:53:52 <mroman> so httpd has a /tmp
16:54:02 <mroman> which is on the physical fs in /tmp/httpd
16:54:04 <mroman> stuff like that
16:54:08 <nooga> it could be quite cool for embedded/process control
16:54:27 <nooga> when you set up everything and just run stuff for a long periods of time
16:55:16 <mroman> well you need strict guidelines
16:55:24 <mroman> software developers will need to follow these or gtfo
16:55:33 <mroman> you need a very homogenous environment
16:55:49 <mroman> so not shitty ideas like "we call it apache2 in this distro, we call it httpd in this distro"
16:55:50 <mroman> in fact
16:55:56 <mroman> don't have multiple distros at all :p
16:56:19 <nooga> welcome to the future, NaziOS is here
16:56:34 <mroman> I'm a radical person.
16:56:35 <mroman> :D
16:56:41 <mroman> security has it's price.
16:56:44 <mroman> *its
16:56:47 <nooga> :>
16:57:12 <mroman> but if you have such an OS
16:57:16 <\oren\> Trump Linux
16:57:16 <mroman> with such strict guidelines
16:57:29 <mroman> then the software devs will also ship configuration files for their software
16:57:33 <mroman> etc.
16:57:36 <mroman> I mean
16:57:40 <mroman> if you would have sewindows
16:57:47 <mroman> you'd need months to configure it properly
16:57:55 <nooga> yup
16:58:04 <mroman> because you'd have to write config files for every single process etc.
16:58:09 <mroman> because software devs don't ship one
16:58:24 <mroman> and because their software probably does more than they want to admit
16:58:28 <int-e> here's a fun one... what is the security model of systemd?
16:58:30 <mroman> like calling home and stuff.
16:58:48 <mroman> but my opinion on that is FUCK those software then.
16:59:20 <mroman> I don't know enough about systemd internals to answer that.
16:59:30 <nooga> well, there's quite sophisticated permission system in Android
16:59:49 <nooga> you can grant and revoke access to various APIs for each app
16:59:58 <nooga> but people still click OK
17:00:05 <nooga> and don't even read that stuff
17:00:06 <mroman> nooga: it's a step in the right direction, yes.
17:00:15 <mroman> nooga: yes because if you need the software then you click OK
17:00:16 <mroman> which
17:00:18 <mroman> I mean
17:00:24 <mroman> you can't protect a user from disabling security
17:00:34 <mroman> but that shouldn't be a reason to NOT implement security.
17:00:41 <nooga> you can revoke some rights of any app at any time
17:00:49 <nooga> but then it starts nagging you
17:00:57 <mroman> setenforce 0
17:00:58 <mroman> gg.
17:01:25 <nooga> "oh you just want to take a picture? the camera app has no access to the camera, go to settings and enable"
17:01:51 <mroman> the trick is to pressure software devs into writing good nice software
17:02:46 <mroman> I don't know how this can be done.
17:03:58 <mroman> I think selling crap should be illegal :)
17:04:00 <VisualizeR> open source gets ripped off each time they push the limits
17:04:01 <mroman> but that's justme.
17:04:50 <mroman> and
17:04:59 <mroman> I think software needs warranty laws like regular products.
17:05:21 <mroman> if your software has defects, you should be legally obliged to fix those
17:05:28 <mroman> like with any other non-software product.
17:06:24 <mroman> at least if you do it commercially
17:06:30 <VisualizeR> this would mean a permanent internet connection and feedback with their server to ensure everything is within time limits
17:07:32 <VisualizeR> guess why they digitalize the industries, it still is a law free zone or lets say there are a lot of grey zones
17:09:07 <VisualizeR> next stop transhumanism, posthumanism after that
17:09:40 <VisualizeR> once the technology is in us we're a lot better to control and keep track of
17:10:44 <mroman> humans are bad at solving problems
17:10:46 <mroman> that's my impression.
17:11:07 <mroman> they like to talk about problems more than talking about solving problems :)
17:12:57 <nooga> but there's no one better
17:13:32 <mroman> ?
17:14:30 <nooga> [at solving problems]
17:15:02 <mroman> still don't follow.
17:17:29 <mroman> sometimes it seems that they aren't even aware of the options they have.
17:17:43 <mroman> in switzerland citizens have the power to change laws.
17:17:44 <mroman> so
17:17:51 <mroman> if a law is still in place after complaining for years about it
17:18:13 <mroman> then this means to me that everybody likes to complain about it, but nobody actually wants to change it.
17:18:24 <mroman> so everybody is just bullshitting.
17:18:38 <nooga> yeah, it's worse when it's the other way round
17:19:19 <nooga> when people are pissed off and protesting but government does not listen and keeps doing the opposite to what people want
17:20:02 <mroman> might be a bad political system then :)
17:20:22 <int-e> nooga: you're talking about a purely hypothetical scenario of course
17:20:35 <nooga> absolutely :P
17:21:00 <mroman> I heard a silent "Trump" there
17:21:32 <mroman> I like the "I do things" attitude.
17:21:37 <mroman> I don't necessarily like what he's up to
17:21:47 <mroman> and I don't know what he's up to.
17:21:59 <mroman> except for that ban of 7 countries
17:22:09 <mroman> that's the only thing you really read about in newspapers in switzerland.
17:22:22 <nooga> I'm not surprised by Trump, I've had samples of this stuff since last winter
17:22:45 <int-e> "The opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law-enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!" -- Trump
17:23:01 <nooga> yeah, samples of that as well
17:23:02 <mroman> I don't know too much about the US system :(
17:23:03 <mroman> but
17:23:05 <mroman> executive orders?
17:23:09 <mroman> sounds like legislative
17:23:28 <mroman> i.e. why the f*ck does the president have legislative rights?
17:24:23 <int-e> "l'état, c'est moi" -- Louis XIV
17:24:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:24:34 <int-e> just a totally random association
17:24:52 <nooga> mroman: yeah, this is hardcore
17:25:07 <int-e> mroman: technically his decrees cannot go against existing law
17:25:29 <int-e> so again, *technically*, you could argue that he has no legislative powers.
17:25:33 <nooga> but if you get a proesident that's in the pocket of the ruling party and paralyzed constitutional court
17:25:38 <nooga> you get the same thing
17:26:05 <int-e> practically though... he has a crazy amount of power, also because he can fire important people, veto laws and the like
17:26:40 <int-e> checks and balances...
17:27:31 <mroman> president can fire people
17:27:34 <int-e> hmm, I've read an analysis of that recently, but where... basically the conclusion was that the rights of the president was established with the underlying idea that only decent human beings would ever attain that office.
17:27:35 <mroman> that's mistake number two :)
17:28:03 <nooga> what he will do next is to convince his electorate that checks and balances are bad and set up by the previous team to impede on making the country great
17:28:28 <nooga> and attempt to dismantle them
17:29:21 <nooga> or just ignore them
17:30:15 <nooga> I've seen it happening :|
17:30:28 <int-e> I'm sure Trump will still like cheques.
17:31:44 <int-e> (another article all but suggested that Trump has a record to beat: Hitler took 5 months from assuming office as chancellor of the Weimar Republic to essentially total power over the state...)
17:34:30 <nooga> so what do I need to do to get a swiss visa?
17:35:30 <mroman> what do you need a swiss visa for?
17:35:48 <mroman> just get a work permit and stay
17:35:50 <mroman> :D
17:36:07 <mroman> or
17:36:13 <mroman> just make vacation here
17:36:14 <mroman> and stay
17:36:32 <int-e> . o O ( bring money )
17:36:55 <mroman> and bring lots of gold
17:36:58 <mroman> we like gold
17:37:00 <mroman> it's so shiny
17:37:20 <mroman> countries generally have nothing against rich immigrants
17:37:26 <mroman> only against poor immigrants :)
17:37:34 <nooga> hold on, I'm calling Google Geneva office
17:37:35 <mroman> well
17:37:38 <mroman> that and muslims
17:37:44 <int-e> `? apt
17:37:45 <HackEgo> apt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:37:49 <mroman> muslims and poor people
17:38:08 <mroman> and maybe germans
17:38:15 <mroman> germans are like arch enemies
17:38:18 <mroman> for whatever reason
17:38:20 <olsner> oh, HTH is also a brand of kitchens
17:38:45 <mroman> I guess it's because they talk in a funny language :p
17:38:47 <int-e> `learn APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags".
17:38:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'apt': APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags".
17:39:20 <int-e> @google "adequate pernicious toe-rags"
17:39:21 <lambdabot> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/03/security_threat_solutions/
17:39:25 <int-e> though so.
17:39:32 <mroman> but I never heard about discrimination against rich english people
17:39:41 <mroman> as money is always welcome
17:39:50 <mroman> you'll even get tax discounts as a rich foreigner.
17:39:59 <mroman> common practice.
17:40:03 <boily> All Hail the Toe Of Everything!
17:40:20 <int-e> *thought
17:40:25 <nooga> i thought that everyone in switzerland is more or less well off
17:40:32 <mroman> well off how?
17:40:34 <mroman> with money?
17:40:40 <nooga> yeah
17:40:45 <mroman> well yeah
17:40:49 <mroman> but more money is always better
17:40:51 <int-e> nooga: every country needs slaves ;)
17:40:54 <mroman> I mean
17:41:05 <mroman> if you are rich and move to some village in switzerland
17:41:18 <mroman> even if you only have to pay half the amount a swiss would have to pay in taxes
17:41:27 <VisualizeR> no country "needs" slaves, it is just comfortable to have them
17:41:28 <nooga> your new neighbours will vote if they want you there :D
17:41:28 <mroman> it's still going to be a good income
17:41:39 <mroman> so the village can buy a new school
17:41:41 <mroman> or whatever
17:41:42 <mroman> :D
17:41:44 <int-e> VisualizeR: what are you, socialist or communist ;)
17:41:46 <VisualizeR> heaven is a real place on earth, you're just too poor to live in it
17:42:06 <VisualizeR> power to the people
17:42:15 <int-e> kidding mostly... also out of my depth
17:42:21 <int-e> maybe I should read Marx.
17:43:18 <mroman> money equals happiness
17:43:23 <mroman> but only if you have A LOT of it
17:43:33 <mroman> (1 Mio. isn't enough)
17:43:39 <nooga> no, it does not
17:43:41 <VisualizeR> we're always wanting to simply accept the biggest system there is but this way we give away our power to share information collectively. that is basically the msg of the aliens, the 1% are the alienated ones and they started a class war.
17:43:43 <nooga> look up Notch
17:43:49 <nooga> he's miserable
17:44:10 <int-e> "money cannot buy happiness but it sure keeps the family in touch"
17:44:29 <nooga> my view on it is that we're all playing a game
17:44:29 <int-e> (paraphrased, no clue what the source was)
17:44:34 <nooga> and money is a score
17:44:40 <nooga> the score*
17:45:07 <mroman> no
17:45:08 <nooga> and this game gets slightly easier for high scoring players
17:45:12 <mroman> family is the score
17:45:14 <mroman> in my opinion
17:45:15 <int-e> slightly?
17:45:19 <mroman> but money can buy you family.
17:45:28 <nooga> int-e: slightly, unless you're in the top ten
17:45:51 <mroman> with money I could afford plastic surgery
17:45:55 <mroman> a lot of plastic surgery.
17:46:29 <nooga> I cheated and got a lovely wife without using any money ;>
17:46:44 <mroman> lucky bastard :(
17:47:08 <mroman> I'm a 0/10. Makes dating incredibly hard.
17:47:28 <nooga> I used to think the same
17:47:31 <nooga> there's hope
17:47:31 <mroman> 0/10 on the revised scale
17:47:36 <mroman> no the traditional scale
17:47:42 <mroman> the traditional scale is useless.
17:47:54 <mroman> it's like grades
17:48:14 <mroman> It doesn't matter if you fail with a 1,2,3, or 3.9 (you fail if grade < 4.0)
17:48:30 <mroman> fail is fail.
17:48:38 <mroman> the only grades that actually matter are 4 to 6.
17:49:26 <nooga> but grades don't count in the game
17:49:35 <mroman> I'm not "thinking" that
17:49:35 <nooga> the game is about score and staying sane
17:49:40 <mroman> I actually have hard data on that.
17:58:49 <nooga> how old are you?
18:01:11 <doesthiswork> and /s/l
18:01:32 <nooga> these are known
18:02:16 <doesthiswork> yes but the order is important
18:02:47 <doesthiswork> http://www.gingersoftware.com/content/grammar-rules/adjectives/order-of-adjectives/
18:02:55 <nooga> ooooh
18:06:53 <mroman> 26
18:07:17 <mroman> l?
18:07:19 <mroman> language?
18:07:44 -!- tromp has joined.
18:07:56 <boily> location.
18:08:01 <doesthiswork> purpose or qualifier
18:09:21 <nooga> huh
18:09:53 <doesthiswork> s/l/purpose or qualifier
18:11:02 * Zarutian had to do some chores that turned out to be more time consuming than he thought
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18:23:56 <mroman> you need pictures too?
18:25:24 <nooga> what for?
18:25:46 <mroman> I don't know.
18:26:11 <nooga> :S
18:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bax3n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50840&oldid=50630 * Bax3n * (-24)
18:37:56 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PILL CHICKEn).
18:47:52 <mroman> I have a public youtube channel anyway.
18:47:59 <mroman> so my face isn't exactly secret :)
18:54:31 <mroman> you can watch my precious cooking skills.
18:56:46 <doesthiswork> do you have a link to your wishlist ;)
18:57:00 <mroman> wishlist?
18:58:16 <VisualizeR> lol
18:59:51 <mroman> You can document Burlesque for me
18:59:58 <mroman> That's on my whishlist.
19:01:26 <doesthiswork> I can review Cabaret if you like
19:02:07 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/docs/BLSQ.html <- needs a lot of work
19:02:11 <mroman> utterly incomplete
19:02:59 <doesthiswork> oh.
19:05:52 <mroman> yeh.
19:06:08 <mroman> probably not even a 100 builtins documented
19:06:08 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: No route to host).
19:06:11 <mroman> and there are 400 of those
19:06:18 -!- nooga has joined.
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19:19:42 <mroman> It's got the best Fibonacci program there is.
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20:31:17 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
20:31:18 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 38 Feb 4 12:07 wisdom/password
20:31:22 <oerjan> ooh
20:31:27 <oerjan> `? password
20:31:27 <HackEgo> The password of the month is n9y25ah7
20:31:43 <oerjan> `dowg password
20:31:44 <HackEgo> 10206:2017-02-04 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7 \ 10065:2017-01-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91 \ 9816:2016-12-02 <shachäf> revert \ 9815:2016-12-02 <shachäf> undo -2 \ 9813:2016-12-02 <oerjän> learn The password of th
20:33:38 -!- adu has joined.
20:33:43 <doesthiswork> mroman: what does the Fibonacci program look like?
20:34:37 <oerjan> `! slashes did we have this
20:34:38 <HackEgo> did we have this
20:34:41 <oerjan> ooh
20:36:31 <int-e> `! --help
20:36:32 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/--help: not found
20:36:37 <int-e> ah
20:36:49 <oerjan> `! help
20:36:50 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
20:37:00 <doesthiswork> `botsnack
20:37:01 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
20:37:14 <int-e> the --help was, actually, helpful for me... I did remember what ibin is :)
20:38:12 <int-e> `paste ibin/
20:38:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin
20:38:17 <int-e> `url ibin/
20:38:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin
20:38:58 <oerjan> `paste tries `url first before doing any actual copying
20:39:19 <nooga> giiiik
20:39:33 <oerjan> nooga: waaat?
20:39:38 <int-e> `url /dev/null
20:39:38 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
20:39:47 <int-e> ah, it checks that...
20:39:52 <shachaf> `url tmp/spout
20:39:53 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
20:39:56 <int-e> I didn't know!
20:40:04 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
20:40:11 <shachaf> `cat bin/url
20:40:12 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
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20:40:18 <shachaf> Ah.
20:40:21 <int-e> HackEgo's (commands are) surprisingly intelligent sometimes.
20:40:24 <shachaf> `dowg ../bin/url
20:40:26 <HackEgo> 8136:2016-05-25 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'8s/..hg/(?:&|tmp)/\' bin/url \ 8135:2016-05-25 <oerjän> revert 8132 \ 8133:2016-05-25 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'8s/.hg/(?:.hg|tmp)/\' bin/url \ 4607:2014-04-20 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/hg repository/web-viewable filesystem repository/\' bin/url \ 4606:2014-04-20 <oerjän> sed -i \'8s!.*! if re.match(r"/|\\\\.hg(
20:40:33 <oerjan> shachaf: hth
20:40:34 <shachaf> clwver
20:41:19 <nooga> oerjan: making random noises
20:41:41 <int-e> `slwd oerjan//s/clever/clwver/
20:41:41 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
20:42:11 <int-e> pity, no "clever" in there :P
20:42:27 <shachaf> how unlucky
20:42:35 <shachaf> if only you had a four-leaf clwver
20:43:15 * int-e slashes (that's where this started, wasn't it?) shachaf with a four-leaf cleaver
20:43:48 <shachaf> `cat bin/swrjan
20:43:49 <HackEgo> slwd "oerjan//$1"
20:44:07 <int-e> ...srsly
20:44:18 <int-e> `culprits bin/swrjan
20:44:21 <HackEgo> shachäf
20:44:39 <int-e> `cat bin/shwshaf
20:44:40 <HackEgo> cat: bin/shwshaf: No such file or directory
20:44:48 <int-e> `cat bin/shwchaf
20:44:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/shwchaf: No such file or directory
20:45:11 <shachaf> That would make no sense.
20:45:13 <int-e> `? shachaf
20:45:14 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
20:45:20 <shachaf> swrjan stands for something like sed wisdom oerjan
20:46:19 <int-e> shachaf: Would a bell pepper with a passion be a passion fruit? And how do you feel about bell peppers without any passion?
20:47:11 <oerjan> paradoxically, i'd imagine shachaf doesn't think bell peppers are passionate enough
20:47:21 <shachaf> Your reading is not supported by English grammar.
20:47:43 <shachaf> Or maybe mine isn't.
20:47:45 <shachaf> Oh well.
20:47:58 <oerjan> i think english grammar is appropriately ambiguous
20:48:03 <int-e> I think the grammar supports it, it's only the semantic level that would usually preclude this interpretation.
20:48:55 <shachaf> I'm not one to comment on content.
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20:49:00 <int-e> Mainly because passionate fruits and vegetables are so rare.
20:49:29 <shachaf> "he hates tomatoes with an infection"
20:49:32 <shachaf> I suppose it's passable.
20:50:14 <int-e> . o O ( tomatoes are very passable )
20:50:18 <int-e> it's raining puns
20:50:39 * oerjan passes int-e a slightly overripe tomato at high speed
20:50:55 <int-e> yum!
20:52:27 <int-e> (I don't think this pun really works in english... I guess translating "tomato passata" as "passed tomatoes" would evoke unpleasant connotations)
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20:53:26 <oerjan> puré tomato goodness
20:54:18 <oerjan> int-e: goes well with a cup of kopi luwak?
20:54:49 * oerjan is not going to try either
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20:55:58 <wob_jonas> As for English, I have a question.
20:56:49 <int-e> why?
20:56:56 <wob_jonas> There's this short joke about the vet thinking the doctor has it easy because his patients can speak and tell him what the problem is why they went to the doctor or what symptoms they have.
20:58:04 <wob_jonas> The Hungarian phrasing is: doctor: "Mi a panasza?" (which is a common thing for a doctor to asks when you go there without context), and the vet answers "Ja, úgy könnyű!" saying that the doctor has it easy.
20:58:14 <wob_jonas> What is the idiomatic phrasing of that joke in English?
20:58:48 <oerjan> . o O ( wait, what's the actual joke )
20:59:18 <shachaf> can you translate the hungarian bits twh
21:00:03 <wob_jonas> "Mi a panasza?" means "What is your complaint?" which is how a doctor asks an adult why you came to them when he doesn't already know what the problem is
21:00:39 <wob_jonas> "Ja, hát úgy könnyű!" means "Oh, it's easy that way!" or something like that
21:00:51 <nooga> :O
21:02:03 <shachaf> Oh, I see.
21:02:50 <wob_jonas> But the joke only works well if it's short, not a long explanation, which is why I don't know how to say it in English the best.
21:03:44 <shachaf> The veterinarian wants to make the doctor's life harder by not answering questions.
21:03:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, he'll probably answer the question after that
21:04:06 <wob_jonas> he just exclaims that first
21:04:20 <wob_jonas> he's in a joke but isn't stupid
21:04:30 <shachaf> Are you sure he exists?
21:04:35 <int-e> A Veterinarian was feeling ill and went to see her doctor. The doctor asked her all the usual questions: what were the symptoms, how long had they been occurring, etc. Suddenly, she interrupted him, "Hey look, I'm a vet... I don't need to ask my patients these kind of questions. I can tell what's wrong just by looking." She smugly added, "Why can't you?"
21:04:40 <int-e> The doctor nodded, stood back, looked her up and down, quickly wrote out a prescription, handed it to her and said, "There you are. Of course, if that doesn't work, we'll have to have you put to sleep."
21:04:44 <int-e> this version works for me.
21:05:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: that's a different one, yes. there are multiple jokes about vets and doctors
21:05:38 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:05:53 <int-e> wob_jonas: I just have no clue how to actually deliver the information required for your story so that there's a punchline.
21:06:08 <wob_jonas> ok, thanks
21:06:41 <int-e> (and I don't remember having heard such a joke... not that this says a lot)
21:06:53 <zzo38> The punchline is when one man punches the other.
21:07:03 <int-e> A man took his Rottweiler to the vet and said "My dog's cross-eyed, is there anything you can do for him?" "Well," said the vet, "lets have a look at him." So he picks the dog up and has a good look at its eyes. "Hmm, not good," says the vet, "I'm going to have to put him down."
21:07:08 <int-e> The owner was stunned, "Put him down just because he's cross-eyed?" "No, because he's heavy," says the vet.
21:07:24 <int-e> (that's the other joke I found on the way that made me chuckle, at least. it's all I have for now.)
21:07:53 <wob_jonas> hehe
21:08:07 <int-e> Of course I'm reminded of Pratchett's wisdom about horse doctors.
21:08:27 <wob_jonas> I haven't read enough pratchett, so I don't know what that is
21:09:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel almost, but not entirely without esolang discussions | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
21:09:24 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/cWSI
21:09:33 <zzo38> The transformation matrix of OpenGL is confusing why is there so many? Do you know how to do it to make the simple way (so that the top left corner is (0,0) and then it goes positive by integers per pixel)?
21:10:18 <int-e> what are you going to do with the z coordinate?
21:10:27 <wob_jonas> int-e: I see
21:10:48 <zzo38> I think I do not need z-coordinate probably, but I do use the depth buffer though.
21:12:17 <zzo38> Maybe the z-coordinate may be usable as an additional input to the shader program; I don't know if this can work or not.
21:13:09 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
21:17:14 <int-e> glOrtho used to be the right thing but I haven't used OpenGL in this new everything-is-a-shader age where you're responsible for so much more.
21:18:00 * oerjan is slightly tempted to find a way to tweak the spam filter so the intro cannot be put at the start of the section
21:18:50 <int-e> hmm, has there been new spam?
21:18:52 <zzo38> int-e: I can use glOrtho but what values should be specified, and what other thing is needed too?
21:19:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50841&oldid=50823 * Zzo38 * (-1)
21:19:55 <oerjan> int-e: no, but there have been new introductions
21:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50842&oldid=50833 * Oerjan * (-1) Order!
21:20:50 <int-e> zzo38: just the range of coordinates you want: https://www.opengl.org/sdk/docs/man2/xhtml/glOrtho.xml ... that should set up things so that afterwards specifying (2D, or 3D with a z coordinate) vertex coordinates in screen space should work.
21:23:10 <zzo38> Yes, but then what do I need with glViewport and glMatrixMode and so on?
21:24:51 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know. I guess if I were jumping through the introduction hoop, that would not cause any terrible additional annoyance provided that this is clear and near impossible to miss from the instructions.
21:25:19 <int-e> oerjan: but is it worth it? do you expect people to actually read through all the introductions? I mean anyone besides yourself...
21:26:40 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Silberjoder whoa
21:26:48 <oerjan> int-e: well they have to avoid the other pitfalls described there already, and it _does_ already say to put it on the end.
21:26:55 <oerjan> *at
21:29:34 <int-e> zzo38: afair you need glViewPort to specify the area to be rendered to; but it sets up the transformation such that screen coordinates range from (-1,-1) (top-left, I think) to (1,1) (bottom right). So afterwards, you can use glOrtho to set up the transformation that you want without affecting the area being rendered to. But as I said before, this is outdated information.
21:29:52 <oerjan> although the main one people seem to have trouble with is not putting in external links.
21:30:08 <int-e> oerjan: I guess a more relevant question is whether any of the recent additions would have been rejected by such a test.
21:30:20 <oerjan> (which is also one that was put there _specifically_ to catch spammers)
21:30:52 <oerjan> int-e: there are less than a handful who have put it at the beginning.
21:31:10 <oerjan> but they do seem to happen occasionally.
21:31:20 <oerjan> (and then i fix it)
21:31:49 <oerjan> int-e: and of course i'm mentioning this because there just was one.
21:31:51 <zzo38> And then how does it affect inputs to fragment programs?
21:32:33 <int-e> oerjan: so put a reminder text at the start of the section.
21:33:20 <int-e> oerjan: and then adding such a check seems fair to me
21:33:47 <oerjan> int-e: i was considering that.
21:34:12 <ais523> I know I had to remove the check that peopel had signed correctly
21:34:16 <ais523> because so many legitimate users didn't
21:34:20 <ais523> it's really disappointing, actually
21:37:32 <oerjan> . o O ( making good CAPTCHAs is hard not because spammer programs are smart, but because humans are stupid )
21:38:06 * oerjan cannot be the first to note that.
21:38:06 <wob_jonas> yeah
21:39:20 <wob_jonas> I'm reminded to https://www.xkcd.com/810/ and https://www.xkcd.com/233/ of course
21:40:20 <oerjan> i'd fail the latter, never having seen that.
21:40:35 <wob_jonas> 810 is an approach that's too hard for humans, 233 is one that's too easy for machines
21:41:23 <ais523> oerjan: a bot passed a fairly large turing-test tournament, it did so by pretending to be a ukrainian teenager
21:41:42 <ais523> which automatically caused people to give it a pass on things like bad english and no knowledge of American pop culture
21:42:05 <oerjan> i remember that
21:42:53 <oerjan> was it scott aaronson who tried it and found it easy to beat
21:43:15 <oerjan> ais523: in that case too, it was because humans stupid - including the judges
21:43:20 <oerjan> *+are
21:43:47 <mroman> doesthiswork: 1Jq.+10!C
21:44:00 <doesthiswork> very nice
21:44:06 <mroman> http://cheap.int-e.eu/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi?q=1Jq.%2B46%21C
21:44:27 <ais523> I think the main conclusion was that the Turing test doesn't actually work
21:44:33 <mroman> (and that's not a fibonacci builtin)
21:44:56 <oerjan> wob_jonas: *reminded of
21:45:19 <wob_jonas> ok
21:46:20 <wob_jonas> `ping
21:46:20 <HackEgo> pong
21:47:20 <oerjan> ais523: it _could_ work but (1) the judge would need to be competent (2) a passing program would need a full fake human backstory
21:47:33 <int-e> zzo38: meh, I googled a bit. AFAIU, vertex shaders convert coordinates into "normalized device coordinates" (that's a cube [-1..1]^3) with all fragments outside the range being dropped; the input to the fragment shader includes window (that is, device) coordinates of the fragment though, obtained using data from glViewPort.
21:48:13 <wob_jonas> `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx
21:48:13 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
21:48:17 <oerjan> so it's making unreasonable demands of the program, unless it's only using stupid humans as judges
21:48:27 <int-e> oerjan: Why should Eliza not be able to pass a captcha? :P
21:48:55 <wob_jonas> `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero
21:48:56 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
21:49:00 <wob_jonas> ``dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero
21:49:00 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `dc: not found
21:49:04 <wob_jonas> ``` dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero
21:49:04 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
21:49:05 <wob_jonas> dumb
21:50:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck+3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50843 * Ivancr72 * (+1195) Created page with "Brainfuck+3 is like [[brainfuck]] but it has a bidimensional space and it has 3 more commands. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:c..."
21:50:46 <wob_jonas> `ruby -ex=i=1;loop{p x+=i=x-i}
21:50:46 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
21:56:23 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Gotta go).
21:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50844 * Ivancr72 * (+452) Created page with "( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck is a derivate of [[Brainfuck+3]] but with lenny faces. ==Commands== <code>+</code> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)<br /> <code>-</code> (♥ ͜ʖ♥)<br /> <code>.</..."
21:58:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50845&oldid=50829 * Ivancr72 * (+46) added bf+3 and lennyfuck
21:58:52 <int-e> `` dc -ezz[rpdk+Klxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null # tweak
21:58:53 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \
21:59:31 <int-e> (and you can replace zz by 1 if you don't care about the 0 or empty stack errors)
22:00:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ivancr72]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50846&oldid=50635 * Ivancr72 * (+47)
22:00:39 <mroman> you need knowledge about american pop culture to be considered human?
22:00:43 -!- Guest78015 has changed nick to L3viathan.
22:01:10 <wob_jonas> mroman: good question, wait, there was a discussion of this
22:01:16 <wob_jonas> let me try to find it
22:01:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blablafuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50847&oldid=50697 * Ivancr72 * (+6)
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22:01:44 <mroman> although turing test doesn't really test if you're human.
22:01:54 <mroman> I reckon intelligent aliens would pass the test too.
22:02:05 <int-e> `` dc -e1[dKp+rklxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null # actually one char less now
22:02:06 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \
22:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50848&oldid=50844 * Ivancr72 * (+64)
22:05:14 <mroman> 60% thought cleverbot is human
22:05:20 <mroman> what the fuck is wrong with these humans.
22:05:46 <mroman> and hu
22:05:53 <mroman> only 63.3% of humans were identified as humans
22:05:54 <mroman> what
22:06:23 <mroman> "Out of the 334 votes cast, Cleverbot was judged to be 59.3% human, compared to the rating of 63.3% human achieved by human participants."
22:06:42 <int-e> Was it one of those bots that emulated a teenager?
22:06:47 <mroman> don't know
22:06:56 <mroman> but cleverbot.com let's you chat with it online
22:07:09 <mroman> I doubt you need more than one minute to see if it's a bot.
22:07:35 <zzo38> int-e: It is still confusing to me a bit. If I will use vertex program and fragment program, what do the different inputs and outputs of those programs do?
22:07:37 <int-e> Face it, we cannot reliably tell fungot apart from the channel's less silicon blessed residents at all times.
22:07:37 <fungot> int-e: there are fnord
22:07:53 <int-e> And fungot isn't even trying to pass itself off as human.
22:07:53 <fungot> int-e: thankfully you can click at part of the problem, so silly a redundancy
22:08:22 <zzo38> Such as, what do texture coordinates do?
22:08:28 <mroman> http://codepad.org/9ZFq88xe <- it just takes a single question
22:10:52 <mroman> http://codepad.org/P4AjtUca <- either those humans were incredibly morons or they didn't participate with their online version in the test.
22:10:53 <wob_jonas> mroman: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3285.html and its discussion thread http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=7411
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22:11:14 <oerjan> <boily> myndzi. <-- i think \oren\ makes a better cyborg these days.
22:11:21 <mroman> the first two answers are completely out of context.
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22:11:56 <mroman> are there transcripts from those turing tests available?
22:15:33 <mroman> "Although Cleverbot managed to score well on the Turing test, the model that did that is different from the one you’ll find online."
22:15:55 <mroman> Thought so, because the online version is pretty dumb.
22:18:32 <mroman> The trick is to not ask them yes/no questions.
22:18:52 <mroman> they are decently good at detecting yes/no question and answer randomly with either.
22:19:49 <ais523> can't you ask a yes/no question for which a random answer would be suspicious?
22:19:55 <ais523> at least half the time
22:20:03 <ais523> or for which both yes and no would be bad answers
22:20:08 <mroman> of course.
22:21:19 <mroman> also you need to reference previous things you've said.
22:24:06 <mroman> stuff like "Lookt at my last sentence. Pick the worth word in that sentence which is a verb. Please tell me the simple past of that verb."
22:24:18 <mroman> *fourth
22:25:39 <mroman> To identify a bot you need to know what a bot can't.
22:26:00 <mroman> If you ask people to identify a bot who don't know how bot works
22:26:09 <int-e> mroman: f*ck you I'm not doing your grammar homework for you!
22:26:10 <mroman> the chances are much higher that they'll think it's not a bot.
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22:26:14 <oerjan> mroman: thought you put in the misspellings on purpose :P
22:26:48 <mroman> oerjan: no. It's kinda funny but these things happen all the time to me.
22:26:58 <mroman> I write stuff "pseudo-phonetically"
22:27:07 * Zarutian has met actual humans that fail parts of the turing test
22:27:21 <oerjan> itym sudo-foneticly hth
22:27:43 <int-e> oerjan: itym
22:27:47 <wob_jonas> what? worth is pseudo-phonetical?
22:27:59 <mroman> kinda.
22:28:04 <int-e> (reading: ity[are]m)
22:28:05 <mroman> I also write does <-> those
22:28:09 <wob_jonas> isn't pseudo-phonetical when you write sign instead of sine?
22:28:33 * oerjan hands int-e his evil overlord card
22:28:34 <mroman> anyway it's late. Gonna hit the hay.
22:28:46 <int-e> oerjan: does it bite?
22:29:03 <mroman> my stupid friend told me to inform him when I go climbing again so he can join
22:29:13 <mroman> but that apparentely was an empty promise.
22:29:26 <wob_jonas> mroman: that's a promise?
22:29:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: a balm does, yes
22:29:40 <oerjan> int-e: ooh, good idea
22:30:01 <mroman> it's a promise to join me, yes.
22:30:18 <mroman> but he's not even responding.
22:31:17 <mroman> and I kind need to know... I don't like it when people only commit on the actual day it was planned.
22:31:21 <mroman> or cancel on the day it was planned.
22:31:27 <mroman> that's rude.
22:31:39 <mroman> and disrupts my workout regime.
22:33:20 <mroman> Now I had to go shopping today waiting for him to answer.
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22:33:26 <mroman> Wanted to buy a suit.
22:33:29 <mroman> Shit is too expensive though.
22:33:32 <mroman> 600 bucks
22:33:42 <mroman> need to think if that's actually worth it.
22:34:29 <mroman> I have a weird body shape.
22:34:29 <shachaf> too expensive?
22:34:30 <shachaf> suit yourself
22:34:39 <mroman> I can't buy clothes without having to tailor them.
22:35:17 <mroman> my arms and legs are shorter than other peoples.
22:35:22 <mroman> *people's
22:35:27 <mroman> well
22:35:37 <mroman> 600 bucks is probably a reasonable price for a tailored suit
22:35:49 <mroman> I mean that's likely average price for that kind of quality.
22:36:39 <mroman> but I have no specific use for a suit other than that I currently don't have one and wanted to see what the fuzz is abut.
22:36:41 <mroman> *about
22:37:34 <mroman> you only need a suit if you work as a lawyer or in a bank or insurance company
22:37:41 <mroman> otherwise nobody needs a suit.
22:38:06 <mroman> and 600 bucks is too much to ruin it
22:38:08 <wob_jonas> mroman: not quite. it's useful to have a suit when you're invited to other people's weddings
22:38:21 <wob_jonas> s/when/if/
22:38:22 <mroman> I'm not getting invited to weddings.
22:38:38 <mroman> My own brother doesn't even say hi to me
22:38:39 <mroman> so
22:38:42 <wob_jonas> yeah, but many people who aren't lawyers or work in a bank are
22:39:08 <mroman> There's zero people who would invite me to weddings.
22:39:11 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:39:13 <mroman> or birthday parties
22:39:18 <mroman> pretty much anything.
22:39:24 <wob_jonas> :-(
22:40:06 <mroman> Last time I went out was more than 2 years ago.
22:40:30 <alercah> like out of the house?
22:40:39 <wob_jonas> lol
22:40:41 <mroman> and the total amount of times I went out I can count with two hands.
22:40:49 <mroman> no
22:40:50 <alercah> sheltered...
22:40:54 <mroman> I leave home everyday for work
22:41:12 <mroman> and climbing
22:41:14 <mroman> and stuff
22:41:17 <mroman> mostly climbing and work tho
22:41:18 <wob_jonas> alercah: or have a really big house, like Wonko the Sane does
22:41:47 <mroman> and doctor appointments
22:42:32 <mroman> I face orofacial dyskinesia
22:42:39 <mroman> hm
22:42:39 <wob_jonas> do you mean indoor climbing?
22:42:43 <mroman> *I have
22:42:54 <wob_jonas> orofa... what?
22:43:02 <mroman> ok oerjan what actually happens is that my brain skips to the next word and then mangles words together
22:43:05 <wob_jonas> what does that mean?
22:43:20 <mroman> so I end up writing "I face" orofacial instead of "I have"
22:43:44 <mroman> wob_jonas: It means my facial muscles are doing shit they are not supposed to
22:43:58 <mroman> also chronic orofacial pain
22:44:14 <wob_jonas> I see
22:44:35 <mroman> They move without me commanding them
22:47:07 <mroman> I don't have many friend.
22:47:24 <mroman> Mostly because I'm very good at sensing if people actually like me or just tolerate me.
22:48:17 <mroman> and since I'm not very narcissistic I don't give a shit about attention from people who tolerate me
22:49:21 <mroman> Maybe that's a BPD trait
22:49:22 <mroman> who knows.
22:49:34 <mroman> or SPD.
22:51:04 <mroman> and I'm not really good at anything and not traditionally attractive at all
22:51:14 <mroman> so people usually don't want to be friends anyway
22:51:33 <wob_jonas> mroman: what sort of climbing? indoor climbing?
22:51:38 <mroman> indoor
22:52:00 <mroman> and bouldering
22:52:06 <mroman> but climbing only indoor so far.
22:53:22 <wob_jonas> I tried indoor climbing only once, and didn't enjoy it, so I never went back
22:53:37 <wob_jonas> but at least I can understand why other people want to do it
22:54:07 <mroman> It's challenging.
22:54:21 <mroman> and the first few times it feels like freedom.
22:54:28 <mroman> but currently it has become more of a challenge
22:54:33 <mroman> like "I wanna climb better grades"
22:55:01 <mroman> but it's a very niche sport around here
22:55:03 <mroman> not a lot of people
22:55:26 <mroman> I don't know anybody who climbs
22:55:31 <wob_jonas> yeah
22:55:37 <wob_jonas> it's not that common
22:55:44 <mroman> so I'm limited to the routes with those Toppas devices
22:55:53 <wob_jonas> somehow a lot of people started to do squash (sport)
22:56:12 <wob_jonas> Toppas devices?
22:57:08 <wob_jonas> apparently that's some sort of rope holding thing, if I understand right
22:57:13 <mroman> yes.
22:57:18 <mroman> It's at the top of the wall
22:57:41 <mroman> it has a mechanism that slows your fall to 1m/s
22:58:15 <wob_jonas> mroman: can't you also go to indoor climbing spaces that don't have ropes but are not very tall and have a thick padded mat on the floor? that's the kind of place I was at when I tried. so if you fall, you don't fall from too high, and don't hurt yourself much (usually).
22:58:25 <mroman> wob_jonas: that's called bouldering
22:58:28 <mroman> and yeah, I do that.
22:58:32 <wob_jonas> ah
23:00:21 <mroman> https://www.hoehenpass.de/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/560x560/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/o/toppas_1.png <- that's a toppas
23:00:42 <mroman> it's on the top of the wall with a rope attached so you can pull it down, hook it up to your climbing belt (probably not the correct term)
23:00:57 <mroman> and it always pulls the rope in so when you climb upwards it will pull the rope in
23:01:21 <wob_jonas> climbing harness?
23:01:27 <mroman> when you fall it will slowling unwind the rope with about 1m/s
23:01:30 <mroman> ah yes. harness.
23:02:05 <mroman> if you're tired from climbing it gets hard to even pull the thing down :)
23:02:40 <mroman> because there's always an upwards force pulling the rope back up
23:02:48 <mroman> so you have to pull it down against that force :D
23:03:54 <mroman> which is why people once they have pulled it down fix it to a carabiner at the bottom of the wall.
23:04:07 <mroman> well there are two systems in use actually
23:04:22 <mroman> one where the carabiner from the toppas is at the top with a small rope attached to it so you have to pull the thing down
23:04:49 <mroman> and system 2 is where it's already pulled down and hooked with carabiners on the floor
23:04:59 <mroman> so you unhook it, climb up, fall down, hook it to the floor again
23:05:16 <mroman> the problem with that is if some moron forgets to hook it to the floor the whole thing is pulled to the top
23:05:20 <mroman> and you need a crane :D
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23:06:06 <mroman> some routes have similar devices
23:06:24 <mroman> "snatch pulley"?
23:07:00 <mroman> it's not a machine so you need a human partner but the device makes you lighter to like 10% of your actual weight
23:07:15 <mroman> so the one who is protecting you from falling down needs very little force
23:07:34 <mroman> and the rope is already on the wall
23:07:44 <mroman> it's mostly for children though.
23:08:31 <mroman> well... good night.
23:08:36 <mroman> really need some sleep now.
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23:24:17 <oerjan> <olsner> oh, HTH is also a brand of kitchens <-- i've got hth
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23:29:02 <shachaf> a brand of kittens?!
23:30:26 <oerjan> mwno.
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23:31:45 <shachaf> do you recommend hth brand kitchens?
23:33:27 <oerjan> i find it slightly unnerving that i cannot find the plugs for the fridge and freezer
23:34:41 <oerjan> i considered defrosting the freezer recently, but i don't know how to do it without using the circuit breaker
23:35:07 <oerjan> (i hope it doesn't really need defrosting, the buildup isn't _that_ great)
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23:36:01 <oerjan> anyway, i don't really have an idea, it came with the apartment.
23:36:29 <shachaf> do you recommend your apartment?
23:36:48 <oerjan> no, the ventilation is far too noisy
23:37:16 <shachaf> the positive things about my apartment are the location and the price
23:37:44 <shachaf> the rest ranges from ok to scow
23:37:53 <shachaf> but those are the important things anyway?
23:37:58 <oerjan> oh also my bedroom is next to the building staircase/elevator.
23:38:15 <shachaf> maybe norway is no cheaper than berkeley
23:38:18 <oerjan> which is sometimes annoying, but not that often.
23:38:33 <oerjan> i don't know...
23:38:43 <shachaf> doesn't matter
23:39:01 <shachaf> Should I stick around CA or go somewhere else?
23:39:33 <oerjan> go to sri lanka and become a fisherman hth
23:39:45 <shachaf> not into fishing tdnh
23:40:07 <oerjan> UNACCEPTABLE
23:40:10 <oerjan> (me neither)
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23:41:16 <shachaf> i'm also not into other people fishing
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23:41:55 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf is working for the fish people )
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01:16:56 <fizzie> oerjan: FWIW, often there's a switch of some sort.
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01:27:28 <oerjan> fizzie: the fridge is adjustable, but there's no switch in the freezer that i can find.
01:28:40 <oerjan> although there is a strange orange rope in the fridge which i'm not sure what does... it _might_ be connected to the freezer somehow.
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01:29:38 <oerjan> (they are not, however, a single box)
01:29:54 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you have an HTH kitchen?
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01:38:12 <boily> `wisdom
01:40:53 <oerjan> `cwlprits latin
01:40:55 <HackEgo> oerjän
01:40:57 <oerjan> shocking
01:44:50 <boily> bonsœirjan.
01:46:20 <shachaf> s/U/V/g hth
01:46:53 <VisualizeR> fdgdsdgasdasdadsasdasa
01:48:04 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm not sure how that's defined.
01:48:23 <shachaf> @google hth kitchen
01:48:26 <lambdabot> http://www.hth-kitchen.com/
01:48:26 <lambdabot> Title: Home
01:48:27 <boily> hellochaf, VisuellozeR, fizziello.
01:50:00 <fizzie> Nothing that fancy.
01:50:52 <shachaf> Maybe the London real estate you buy can have an HTH kitchen.
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01:54:52 <fizzie> I looked a little at how those things work around here, and it seems really complicated.
01:55:20 <fizzie> At least compared to how we did it in Finland, where we just went to the bank we used anyway, asked for some money, and bought a place.
01:56:03 <shachaf> As opposed to what in London?
01:56:54 <fizzie> Apparently here the process involves at least a solicitor, a mortgage adviser, a lender, the seller, the seller's solicitor, the lender's surveyor, and probably some others as well.
01:57:54 <fizzie> And allegedly everyone remortgages their mortgages all the time.
01:58:00 <fizzie> For a better deal.
01:58:06 <shachaf> All the time?
01:58:19 <shachaf> Why do better deals keep showing up?
01:58:24 <fizzie> Well, every couple years.
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01:58:45 <shachaf> Are interest-only mortgage the best?
01:59:00 <doesthiswork> can you borrow money in finland for a place in london?
01:59:03 <fizzie> AIUI, you get a good deal for your first K years (for K of around 2 to 5), and then you remortgage when it would switch to the lender's default rate.
01:59:44 <fizzie> Plus there's freeholds, leaseholds, shared freeholds, commonholds, and I suspect a few other holds as well.
02:01:19 <oerjan> bood evenily.
02:01:33 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, commonholds correspond to the most common arrangement (for flats) in Finland, where the people living in the building own a share in a company that owns the building, and then pays for someone to manage the things that need to be managed and makes the decisions that need to be decided.
02:02:00 <oerjan> `slwd latin//s/U/V/g
02:02:13 <fizzie> But apparently no new-ish commonhold flats exist, because the developer companies can't extract as much money from the tenants that way.
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02:03:35 <shachaf> Sounds like a condominium thing in the US?
02:04:19 <fizzie> Maybe. All I know about condominiums is that the word is very fancy, and resembles CoDominium, which is a sci-fi universe.
02:05:38 <shachaf> Aha, Wikipedia confirms it.
02:06:11 <shachaf> The Suomi link points to Asunto#Asuinhuoneisto
02:06:52 <shachaf> fizzie: How should I get leverage?
02:07:02 <fizzie> I think that's just a general word for a flat.
02:07:21 <shachaf> Maybe real estate is the best way to do it.
02:07:32 <shachaf> I hear leverage is the best.
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02:08:01 <fizzie> The Asunto#Asuinhuoneisto section just says it's a thing meant for a place someone can live in.
02:12:50 <fizzie> I've been looking into setting up an alerting system, but I don't know how I could trust the alerting system to be working without something alerting me if it breaks.
02:13:37 <shachaf> What sort of alerts?
02:14:17 <fizzie> I don't know yet. I want something that'd show up on things I'm looking at.
02:14:29 <fizzie> If you mean 'on what', I'd like to know when the wiki breaks, for example.
02:14:35 <shachaf> Ah.
02:14:39 <fizzie> It's already got monitoring, but not alerting.
02:14:46 <shachaf> Not an alarm on your flat, for example.
02:14:50 <shachaf> What sort of monitoring has it got?
02:15:00 <shachaf> Shouldn't a monitoring system be able to alert automatically?
02:15:16 <shachaf> s/ automatically//
02:15:30 <fizzie> Three of the systems involved in the monitoring can do alerts, but I haven't configured any of them to do so.
02:15:44 <shachaf> Which systems?
02:16:57 <fizzie> There's a collectd instance on the wiki machine scraping stuff out of nginx (collectd can do alerts), it's sent to an InfluxDB for storage (the TICK stack includes a separate tool called Kapacitor for alerting), and I look at it with Grafana (the very latest Grafana versions do alerting).
02:17:41 <shachaf> Isn't Grafana more of a UI?
02:17:49 <fizzie> Yes, but they're building an alerting in it.
02:17:56 <shachaf> Seems odd.
02:18:08 <shachaf> Of those systems it seems that the one I'd want to alert would be Kapacitor.
02:18:09 <fizzie> Apparently it was a heavily requested feature.
02:18:13 <shachaf> Well, I've never used Kapacitor.
02:18:38 <shachaf> collectd can presumably only alert on the values it collects, rather than queries based on historical values etc.?
02:18:59 <fizzie> Building alerting in Grafana may make sense so far as to it providing a nice user interface for configuring alerts.
02:19:40 <shachaf> I guess?
02:19:49 <shachaf> I've been running Prometheus recently. It's a Borgmon clone.
02:20:10 <fizzie> So you said. I had a look at Prometheus, but I've spent a little bit too much time fiddling with the current setup already.
02:20:25 <fizzie> Incidentally, InfluxDB and the rest of TICK are also written in Go, as Prometheus.
02:20:36 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/esoqps.png
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02:21:31 <shachaf> Yes, I know.
02:22:01 <shachaf> so many qps per second
02:23:08 <fizzie> Almost one.
02:23:18 <fizzie> Well, not quite.
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02:41:43 <shachaf> Maybe influxdb is better.
02:41:51 <shachaf> I think the data model is richer or something? I don't know.
02:42:08 <shachaf> Maybe not.
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02:44:15 <shachaf> Did you see that Facebook released their time series database recently?
02:45:18 <shachaf> fizzie: that mean request processing time is p. high
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02:47:04 <shachaf> Everything is being written in Go nowadays. :-(
02:49:12 <fizzie> I think I heard something about the Facebook thing.
02:49:47 <fizzie> And Microsoft released something to do with large repositories in Git.
02:50:09 <fizzie> https://github.com/Microsoft/GVFS
02:51:02 <fizzie> "With GVFS, this means that they now have a Git experience that is much more manageable: clone now takes a few minutes instead of 12+ hours, checkout takes 30 seconds instead of 2-3 hours, and status takes 4-5 seconds instead of 10 minutes."
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02:56:40 <fizzie> (I was going to say "huge" instead of "large", but turns out the repository they're talking about has just 3 million files.)
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03:02:43 <shachaf> That's only a couple orders of magnitude smaller than Google's, according to http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext
03:03:03 <shachaf> Whenever I mention a Google thing (like CitC the other day), I feel obligated to include a citation.
03:16:36 <fizzie> I just look up a citation I *could* include, but don't.
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05:37:48 <shachaf> hi Cale
05:37:55 <shachaf> What language should be used to specify build system configuration?
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05:47:48 <Cale> shachaf: At the company I work for, we use nix. I really wish that nix's language was just Haskell.
05:48:18 <shachaf> Nix's language seems very complicated.
05:48:30 <shachaf> But also it doesn't really seem like a build system configuration language?
05:48:39 <shachaf> It doesn't replace Makefiles/cabal/whatever.
05:48:53 <Cale> It's not so much that the language itself is complicated, it's that the way people use it is complicated and often undocumented, and impossible to discover because it's untyped.
05:49:25 <Cale> Well, cabal2nix is involved
05:50:11 <shachaf> Bazel and all Bazel clones use Python. It's not ideal but it's not bad.
05:50:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure what would be better.
05:52:19 <shachaf> Would Haskell be better? Unclear.
05:53:32 <Cale> If nix were simply built in Haskell rather than its own weird inane language, it would be really nice.
05:54:16 <shachaf> Nix seems to be at the wrong level of abstraction, though.
05:54:27 <shachaf> But maybe I just don't understand Nix.
05:54:51 <Cale> There needs to be some sort of transition project which starts out by implementing nix in Haskell with Haskell as the configuration language, and then building a nix interpreter which integrates with that so that all the existing work on .nix files can be leveraged and gradually replaced.
05:55:20 <shachaf> I went to a talk about Reflex FRP the other day, by the way.
05:55:28 <Cale> nice
05:55:32 <Cale> Who gave it?
05:55:40 <shachaf> Tikhon, if you know him?
05:55:49 <Cale> I've heard the name
05:56:00 <Cale> I'm in NYC for the next couple of weeks btw
05:56:06 <Cale> Just got here
05:56:26 <shachaf> NYC pretty good. I should go sometime.
05:56:39 <shachaf> is
05:56:50 <Cale> Then I'm going to Melbourne for a month off :)
05:56:58 <shachaf> You should stop by CA.
05:57:19 <Cale> Ah, perhaps I should have... it's all already booked though.
05:57:38 <Cale> My stopover is in Hong Kong
05:57:55 <Cale> Gonna be a crazy flight :)
06:00:53 <shachaf> Cale: You should come to BayHac 2017 in Apr.
06:02:11 <Cale> oh man... might be too soon after all this, but we'll see :)
06:02:28 <shachaf> Why?
06:02:31 <shachaf> Just a quick flight.
06:04:14 <Cale> Yeah, it's probably not really all that hard -- I just fully expect to be fairly burnt out on travel by the time I get back home toward the end of March.
06:04:53 <Cale> I'm only going to be home for two days between now and March 20
06:06:06 <shachaf> So you have several weeks to rest before BayHac
06:06:09 <shachaf> It's perfect.
06:06:10 <Cale> :D
06:06:20 <shachaf> I'll probably be in NYC in Apr.
06:06:26 <Cale> cool
06:06:41 <shachaf> But it shouldn't conflict, so it'll all be fine.
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09:27:47 <mroman> I am not a robot.
09:28:08 <mroman> I fear the day captchas prove to me that I'm a robot.
09:28:27 <mroman> like when I click on "I'm not a robot" and it doesn't trust me.
09:28:45 -!- nooga has joined.
09:28:57 <mroman> there's this funny video of a guy beating the "I'm not a robot captcha" with a robot.
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09:39:49 <mroman> stupid youtube video editor is so fucking buggy
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10:05:43 <mroman> I'm making very quick guides on how to do stuff
10:05:52 <mroman> following the ms paint quality of graphics tradition
10:05:57 <mroman> mostly because I suck at graphics :)
10:22:00 <int-e> . o O ( The "MS Paint" school of art was a minimalist art movement in the late 20th and early 21st century. Its proponents were convinced that "name defines function" and therefore, the program called "Paint" would be a suitable medium for producing paintings. )
10:31:13 <mroman> so
10:31:14 <mroman> windows
10:31:21 <mroman> name defines function .
10:32:40 <int-e> however, "Word" is apparently used to write books.
10:34:40 <mroman> I taught an SQL course last year
10:34:45 <mroman> and it was quite nice
10:35:29 <mroman> I don't like coding for 8h a day
10:35:31 <mroman> it's too much.
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11:40:25 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to German again.
11:42:59 <myname> viel glück
11:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm trying to translate "Grab 'em by the pussy" [for... fun?], specifically discussing whether it'd be "Greift" or "Greifst" or "Greife"
11:50:20 <myname> i'd say it's an
11:50:43 <myname> itjs imperative so either greif oder greift, depending on wether you talk to a single person or a crowd
11:50:55 <shachaf> hilarious
11:51:05 <shachaf> but maybe you can do that somewhere else or nowhere at all
11:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well I AM doing it somewhere else.
11:51:25 <shachaf> and in particular not here
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13:23:54 <mroman> @msg hppavilion[1] "Packt sie an der Muschi"
13:23:55 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
13:23:57 <mroman> what
13:24:05 <mroman> is it @tell?
13:24:15 <mroman> @tell hppavilion[1] "Packt sie an der Muschi"
13:24:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:25:46 <mroman> (but please don't ever use that)
13:26:10 <myname> donjt trump
13:27:24 <fizzie> fungot maintenance in progress, please stand by.
13:27:24 <fungot> fizzie: err what?
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13:27:38 <fizzie> Little did it know.
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13:28:31 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling quite okay?
13:28:45 <fizzie> ...
13:28:47 <fizzie> Hmm.
13:29:36 <fizzie> I see the incoming messages in the log, but it doesn't seem to be replying.
13:30:03 <fizzie> fungot: hello?
13:30:07 <fizzie> ^help
13:30:07 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
13:30:20 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.,]!hmm
13:30:21 <fungot> hmm
13:30:30 <fizzie> That side works, why doesn't the babbling.
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13:35:20 <fizzie> Also that's not right, the proxy quits when fungot disconnects.
13:35:25 <fizzie> 05-02-2017 13:37:20 FATAL: Failed assertion in src/log.c(205): olf
13:35:50 <fizzie> Apparently you can turn logging off, but then it will crash whenever a client disconnects.
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13:38:18 <fizzie> ^ping
13:38:19 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
13:38:22 <fizzie> fungot: But.
13:38:33 <fizzie> Hmm. I must've messed something to do with saving the bot's own nickname.
13:40:16 <fizzie> Oh, of course.
13:40:41 <fizzie> Heh, I think it thinks its nickname is the password.
13:42:23 -!- fungot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:42:31 <fizzie> ...still crashes when disconnecting.
13:43:52 <fizzie> I'll just let it log.
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13:44:01 <fizzie> fungot: How about now?
13:44:02 <fungot> fizzie: it does that fnord to it ( programmer time saved, future extensibility, etc.
13:44:05 <fizzie> That's better.
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13:47:38 <fizzie> @tell Phantom_Hoover You'll be glad to know fungot now supports a connection password and non-6667 ports, for convenient bouncer use.
13:47:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
13:47:38 <fungot> fizzie: it's like a type fnord ( or something). but when run from unix, and i don't know
14:11:28 <mroman> You know fungot is alive if he says fnord.
14:11:28 <fungot> mroman: it is. the fnord bus actually goes fnord. :p
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14:33:05 <rdococ> where can I think with [the physical implications of] portals?
14:34:15 <rdococ> ,,,
14:36:24 <boily> ,,,?
14:37:09 <rdococ> I'm bored and now I want to discuss the physics of portals... do you know a channel I can discuss such a thing without being met with silence?
14:38:47 <rdococ> ...just as I predicted, silence
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14:48:09 <boily> sorry, don't know of any channel where.
14:48:24 <boily> (also, currently dieing at crawl.)
14:48:27 <boily> hellørjan.
14:48:32 <oerjan> helloily.
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14:50:27 * oerjan wanted to make a wisdom where, but then remembered #esoteric is the only channel.
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14:53:27 <boily> `wisdom
14:53:29 <HackEgo> universal property//Universal properties are the best.
14:53:40 <boily> `wisdom
14:53:41 <HackEgo> high hat//A high hat is the same as a top hat, not the same as a hi-hat, just like how a top quark is not the same as an up quark.
14:54:13 <oerjan> that clears it up.
14:54:21 <oerjan> or down. anyway, has its charm.
14:54:28 <oerjan> even if a bit strange.
14:56:17 <boily> physics are weird shit, yo.
14:57:14 <boily> but everything is made of the five elements: boom, orange, pickle, pungent and sweet.
14:57:35 <oerjan> is that discordianism or something
14:57:38 <boily> s/ick/rick/
14:57:42 <boily> it is.
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15:09:57 <wob_jonas> fizzie: why do you want to build an alert system? don't people on the channel already alert you?
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15:11:00 <wob_jonas> and this might be the first time I heard my wisdom cleans something up
15:11:17 <oerjan> *clears
15:11:22 <fizzie> I'm not always looking at the channel.
15:11:36 <oerjan> `cwlprits high hat
15:11:39 <HackEgo> b_jonäs
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15:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Arkenidar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50849&oldid=50710 * Arkenidar * (+79)
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15:43:05 <oerjan> fungot: feeling more bouncy today?
15:43:06 <fungot> oerjan: but the gui still needs to have the students who failed the exam take the supplementary."
15:43:55 <int-e> fungot: stop being coherent please
15:43:56 <fungot> int-e: although, if you watch movies on your computer? ( they'll actually come and check this!)
15:44:06 <int-e> fail.
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15:46:24 <wob_jonas> [ a.{~93+?47$26
15:46:25 <ffj-bot> wob_jonas: pnrmurnkbsttgffqsgqadmt]`]htjeqthsvpsvsnlgdrrfo
15:46:32 <wob_jonas> um
15:47:26 <oerjan> fungot: if you don't improve your incoherence ffj-bot will be beating you
15:47:27 <fungot> oerjan: i believe so, a mechanical amplifier... i have enough trouble keeping other /humans/ off my keyboard.
15:48:00 <wob_jonas> [ a.{~97+?47$26
15:48:01 <ffj-bot> wob_jonas: wbebigxljdefqlzjyndvanxyommgniscsyqsgudffwfseti
15:48:17 <wob_jonas> oh nice
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16:00:14 <mroman> let's turing test this fungot.
16:00:14 <fungot> mroman: i'm a bit short in the fnord before it totally befunged me.
16:00:18 <mroman> failed.
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16:16:21 <boily> mrelloman. fungot is feeling a little short in the fnord. don't sentience him today.
16:16:21 <fungot> boily: ( the whole compiler uniformly used a cps lambda calculus for the people that i don't
16:17:00 <Zarutian> hmm... a rogue like where the floor is inscribed in befunge patterns and some enemies must follow the instructions.
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16:23:16 <boily> Zarutellon. more like battlebots trying to selfmodify the same program to trip the other ones into oblivion?
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16:35:10 <boily> `wisdom
16:35:11 <HackEgo> calzone//A calzone is a part of California. They include norcal and socal.
16:35:24 <boily> . o O ( wasn't it "nocal"? )
16:35:29 <boily> `wisdom
16:35:30 <HackEgo> ic//ic what you did there.
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16:41:30 <boily> `wisdom
16:41:31 <HackEgo> murphy'//Murphy's law obviously does not hold in wisdom/
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19:02:54 <wob_jonas> heh heh. I knew that Knuth's homepage has been changed: whereas it used to say that TAOCP vol 5 is estimated to be ready in 2020, now it says 2025. But I just realized that vol 3 second edition says that the reworked version of vol 3 is estimated at 2015. Funny.
19:03:15 <wob_jonas> But sad at the same time.
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19:05:54 <mroman> fungot: got fun?
19:05:54 <fungot> mroman: this is one place where i used essentials of programming languages
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19:17:03 <int-e> fungot: you seem to have mastered syntax, but what about semantics?
19:17:03 <fungot> int-e: that would be
19:19:35 <wob_jonas> semantics? what does that mean? it's just a word
19:20:24 <int-e> wob_jonas: it was talking about essentials of programming languages
19:20:41 <int-e> wob_jonas: which for some inexplicable reason I associate with the string "syntax and semantics"
19:26:37 <ais523> "semantics" has a mathematical definition
19:27:03 <ais523> but in this channel, it's normally used to describe the method via which a programming language gives meaning to a parse tree
19:27:11 <ais523> (with the syntax being the way the source code is converted into a parse tree)
19:27:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, I'm just being silly in a self-referential way, but it wasn't very funnt
19:28:11 <ais523> oh, I completely missed the joke, you need at least a pair of quotes for it to work though
19:30:15 <int-e> I saw the circularity but thought it was a troll attempt rather than a joke, sorry. (An honest and complete answer would become *very* lengthy, and I'm not sure I would be up to giving one.)
19:30:51 <wob_jonas> sorry
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19:52:05 <mroman_> what
19:52:59 <mroman_> `? syntax
19:53:00 <HackEgo> Syntax is just a subset of grammar.
19:53:05 <mroman_> `? grammar
19:53:06 <HackEgo> Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
19:53:09 <wob_jonas> `? grammar
19:53:10 <HackEgo> Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
19:53:12 <wob_jonas> `? semantics
19:53:13 <HackEgo> semantics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:53:35 <mroman_> `culprit grammar
19:53:36 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprit: not found
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20:04:29 <int-e> `cwlprits grammar
20:04:31 <HackEgo> oerjän oerjän mromän
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20:44:03 <wob_jonas> `? life
20:44:04 <HackEgo> life? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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20:47:13 <wob_jonas> `quote
20:47:15 <HackEgo> 1166) <fungot> int-e: such were the idle tales of the fnord
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21:11:13 <wob_jonas> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
21:15:11 <zzo38> Do you know what is best way to do with OpenGL to replace a texture and a set of vertices with data from mmap()ed memory during every frame without lagging?
21:15:13 <int-e> Hmm, there was that message that made Marvin smile? "We apologize for the inconvenience.".
21:17:10 <Zarutian> zzo38: well there will be lag as the texture will have to be DMAed from main memory to graphics card memory
21:18:43 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, but I would want to try to reduce the amount of lag and also to reduce the amount of slowness
21:19:06 <wob_jonas> But a more expensive computer?
21:19:31 <zzo38> (And I want to copy a set of vertices as well as a texture, and then to render those things in a display list)
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21:25:19 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I just wanted to know the best way to do; it does not have to be perfect. (Also, I haven't tried anything yet)
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21:27:09 <Zarutian> zzo38: the lag will always be there due to this bottleneck that is the bus between the graphics card and main memory. This is true even with systems that say that they use unified memory. (In that case, unless the memory is dual ported, it will cause contention between CPU and GPU. And often there is no mapswapping of memory banks. (CPU does stuff with memory bank A while GPU has memory bank B and then they switch)
21:27:17 <Zarutian> )
21:28:02 <Zarutian> I think there is something called transfers sets or command lists but I havent looked at OpenGL (nor (in)DirectX for that matter) in a long while now.
21:28:08 <int-e> https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Buffer_Object ... no I'm not reading that now (and it won't give you the answers you want anyway... it'll depend on the hardware. for example, the hybrid CPU and GPU packages with shared memory have the benefit that no DMA is taking place. PCIe has reasonably fast access to main memory too, I believe.
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21:29:31 <int-e> I think buffer objects are the modern abstraction for everything now, I mean look at this list of types: https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Buffer_Object#General_use
21:30:20 <wob_jonas> It's good to know there are people on this channel who know about gpu stuff
21:31:07 * int-e doesn't really... it's on my "I should take some time to properly (re)learn this" horizon)
21:32:34 <wob_jonas> it's on my list of things I don't want to learn about
21:36:44 <zzo38> Why do they make it so complicated? (Many older kind of computers do not make it so complicated and so confusing)
21:38:20 <Zarutian> int-e: re the hybrid CPU and GPU packages: see what I said about contention. (Which is more accuratly said to be port contention)
21:39:43 <int-e> Zarutian: yes, I know it's not a free lunch.
21:41:00 <Zarutian> zzo38: depends on which older computers. Many just give you a frame buffer memory that you can write pixels into.
21:41:31 <int-e> (In the end hybrid or standalone GPU will be just another variable for deciding where best to put your various buffer objects)
21:41:49 <Zarutian> int-e: I am just rather befuddled why they want to add pressure on the memory to GPU or CPU bottleneck.
21:43:52 <zzo38> My own design was just for CPU and video to be clock interleaved, and video memory can be mapped anywhere in the main memory space (usually RAM, but it does not have to be), and then a display list is executed during hblank in order to change the setting of what to draw on that scanline.
21:44:33 <Zarutian> zzo38: so basically, ATARI esque setup
21:44:58 <int-e> Zarutian: shared memory = simpler design? I've heard the point (I think in a talk by John Carmack) that a lot of data has to travel from the CPU/main memory to the GPU each frame *anyway* and having shared memory (= direct access of the GPU to that data) might very well make this cheaper overall... I'm skeptical but it's definitely not an obvious tradeoff.
21:45:00 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, somewhat, but more sophisticated.
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21:45:55 <int-e> Zarutian: I can see an unambiguous advantage in not sharing the frame buffer though.
21:46:01 <wob_jonas> actually, I think the video chipset being the most complicated part of the computer is the rule, ever since the first video terminals, and the IBM PC with its dumb simple video cards are the exception
21:46:41 -!- hppavilion2 has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
21:47:17 <Zarutian> int-e: perhaps, but I have seen old designs where they used crossbar switch between CPUs, GPUs, DMA drivers and memory banks.
21:48:39 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: the reason for that was the price of memory iirc versus logic die size. (If you could use a specialized logic to lessen memory consuption for video terminal stuff then you did)
21:49:01 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: yep
21:49:48 <int-e> Zarutian: damn there was a cute story a while ago where somebody ran benchmarks and they got quite consistently faster after 30 minutes or so... that was with a shared framebuffer, and after 30 minutes the display would switch off, freeing a noticable fraction of the memory bandwidth (1920*1080*60*4 = 500MB/s, it would be more today). I have no idea how to find it again :-/
21:49:57 <wob_jonas> and I think part of the reason why memory capacity (as opposed to latency) became relatively cheaper compared to other stuff in the computer is partly that DRAM starts out big but scales better to larger RAM sizes
21:50:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: that was me
21:50:13 <wob_jonas> wasn't I?
21:50:25 <Zarutian> int-e: the beuity of it was that there were usually no contention between diffrent accessors to same memory banks.
21:50:29 <int-e> wob_jonas: possible?
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> I did main memory throughput benchmarks
21:50:42 <wob_jonas> and found that it got faster when the screen saver started
21:50:58 <zzo38> Zarutian: But I think the Atari ANTIC only allows executing one display list instruction per hblank, and many settings could not be set by the display list. My own design does not have these limitations.
21:51:10 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: the contention was with the throughput. I didn't try to measure latency in that case.
21:51:53 <int-e> wob_jonas: did you just have graphs or also some text online? but I guess reading it here would be memorable enough for me.
21:51:55 <Zarutian> zzo38: sure. But the basic idea is the same.
21:52:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: I probably showed a graph
21:52:37 <Zarutian> int-e: it just had one 'huge' drawback: cost. At least at that time.
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21:53:10 <Zarutian> (cost as in relatively expensive to manifacture than other cheaper yet worse methods)
21:53:12 <wob_jonas> If you had a complete copy of the logs, you could probably find it.
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21:56:04 <Zarutian> zzo38: I have somewhere in my ideas file an draft of an spec where instead of an application being only limited to framebuffers, textures, voxels, uniforms and simple gpu shader kernels, they could send a whole program expressed in a binary language that was on the level of primitive recursive function level and therefore guranteed to terminate.
21:57:11 <Zarutian> zzo38: a bit like ReGIS&Sixel, Ripscrip, NAPLPS or Apple QuickDraw commands list (PICT) in that regard
21:57:24 <zzo38> OK
21:57:52 <int-e> Zarutian: probably still is expensive... otherwise more multicore CPUs would offer more than 2 memory interfaces.
21:58:18 <Zarutian> so feel free to discuss your ideas regarding this here, zzo38 ;-Þ
21:58:24 <int-e> (perhaps 4 is the norm now for high-end CPUs?)
21:59:49 <Zarutian> int-e: well that design didnt have multi core CPUs, just a number of CPUs (Called Computing Processing Units just to get the acronym to fit ;-)
21:59:58 <int-e> (just looking at intel and amd here, fwiw)
22:00:00 <zzo38> Zarutian: I would have had it a bit differently; the program is not guaranteed to terminate but if it does not terminate it will restart anyways during each vblank. That way loops and so on are possible and you can implement your own tiles perhaps
22:01:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is there much difference? A primitive recursive program could still easily loop as much that it terminates only after the universe has ended.
22:01:52 -!- tromp has joined.
22:02:24 <wob_jonas> As for CPU and memory interface, what I really wish for is for Intel to figure out a sane way in future x86_64 cpus how the OS can opt for a mode where all pages are at least 8K (or at least 16K) sized,
22:02:35 <int-e> Zarutian: sure, but to make it analogous, a multicore-CPU is just several CPU's, and possibly GPUs on a single die, communicating with external buses (memory, PCIe, more?) and in a perfect world there'd be a crossbar switch between all those components...
22:02:51 <zzo38> My own design did allow loops too and also did that (restarted the program during each vblank), but could not execute during rendering so you had to program the registers to control rendering during each scanline (it renders tiles eight pixels wide, or can render in pixel mode instead, but cannot mix them in a single scanline; also tiles are only one pixel high but the display list can change the character base address during each scanline in order
22:02:57 <wob_jonas> because the 4K page size is currently causing the cpus to not being able to have more than 8*4K L1 data cache
22:03:11 <wob_jonas> and that limitation would be so useful to get over.
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22:03:17 <zzo38> Actually in my design, the display list program can't terminate, although there is a "wait for next scanline" instruction.
22:03:20 <Zarutian> zzo38: one trick I did way back when first there was a computer in the house and I was programming stuff in QBASIC was to keep a copy of video memory block where the mouse cursor was to be drawn to be used to undo the cursor drawing when the mouse was moved.
22:03:35 <int-e> Zarutian: the reality will be less than ideal and probably too complicated for my poor little brain :)
22:04:12 <Zarutian> zzo38: just because it otherwise took too long to redraw the screen and there wasnt enough memory to do dual buffering. Worked well for other sprite kind of stuff too.
22:04:50 <int-e> Zarutian: one cute point of the hybrid design is that a GPU can potentially access data by snooping CPU caches without going via main memory at all.
22:05:17 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: right, PC video cards didn't have built-in sprite support of any sort (and have other limitations too), which is why they're so hard to use.
22:05:43 <wob_jonas> People still ended up doing magical stuff with PC video cards of course, but still.
22:06:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:06:20 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: I was rather pleased with my ten yearold self when I figured out that trick on my own.
22:06:32 <wob_jonas> nice
22:06:41 <zzo38> My own design does include built-in sprite support though, but the display list program still has to alter the sprite Y scroll register during each scanline
22:07:42 <zzo38> (Also my own design has no display list interrupt like ANTIC has, because it is unnecessary. There is still the vblank interrupt though.)
22:08:14 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: and my brother was rather impressed that I had added mouse cursor (and gui buttons) to an fractal drawing program that we had copied from an photocopied then faxed computer programming magazine article.
22:08:46 <int-e> Zarutian: hmm, and all that sounds like I really like those hybrids, and I actually don't... but the tradeoffs are all but clear, and the reason is that both the hybrids and the standalone GPUs are really hard to reason about.
22:09:00 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: did that use machine code (non-BASIC) for some of the computation?
22:09:01 <int-e> (performance wise)
22:10:12 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: none what so ever, took a while to draw the fractal, just did a ?interrupt? check in the next innermost loop iirc
22:10:19 <zzo38> A program I wrote in QBASIC to implement a solitaire card game used a XOR picture for the mouse cursor instead, and undid the mouse cursor before drawing anything else on the screen and then redid it afterward. (But there were no GUI buttons; the mouse was used only to select which card to move, and other operations were done by keyboard)
22:12:12 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: so if you swinged the mouse about it actually executed a bit slower, but you could pause the fractal drawing etc.
22:12:26 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: nice
22:13:32 <Zarutian> I am a bit sad that this thing sucumbed to a bad harddrive sector.
22:15:41 <Zarutian> when I discovered Forth I was rather pissed because Beginners' All Situations Interchange Computerlanguage was rather crappy and used the confusing mathematical notation I have come to loath.
22:16:20 <Zarutian> And here was this thing all along that was much better so long you didnt mind RPN.
22:16:30 <Zarutian> but such is life
22:16:44 * Zarutian hears Marvin sigh electronically
22:16:45 <zzo38> As an example of what I was asking before about OpenGL is to consider a fragment program such as this http://sprunge.us/XSHI and may want to change the name table during every frame.
22:17:22 <zzo38> (Note this program is not quite a standard ARB fragment program; it uses a preprocessor to convert the fractions with slashes into decimals.)
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22:22:28 <zzo38> And the program that writes it may be JavaScript using mmap.js (a Node.js package), so that is why I wanted to know the best way to upload the texture every frame. Also for sprites it may wanted to have a list of shapes to upload too every frame. (And the shader program to use would not necessarily be the one I posted; the JavaScript code may upload a different fragment program.)
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22:34:33 <zzo38> Therefore, can you answer my question?
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23:00:59 <zzo38> Do you know that answer, please?
23:02:28 <Zarutian> int-e: said something about Buffer Objects so you could start there.
23:04:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: Do you think comments make sense on diffs directly like that, or in a code review tool?
23:04:29 <zzo38> I did read about Buffer Objects, but am unsure the best way to use them (without causing too much desynchronization and/or other problems).
23:04:30 <copumpkin> I mean more in a code review tool
23:04:31 <shachaf> I do wish more people used good code review tools.
23:04:40 <copumpkin> I want to "tell a story" in my code review
23:04:49 <copumpkin> but there's no reason not to start at diffs
23:05:47 <Zarutian> zzo38: well you have deplete me of my GPU knowledge. Perhaps ask in #OpenGL ?
23:06:25 <zzo38> Zarutian: I tried; they won't answer me.
23:09:19 * Zarutian really wished that all terminal emulators supported Sixels (They arent that complex)
23:09:36 <zzo38> Does any one other than xterm do?
23:10:05 <wob_jonas> um, what are Sixels?
23:10:27 <zzo38> Display pictures on a DEC VT terminal
23:10:39 <Zarutian> zzo38: well any other terminals that support VT340
23:11:12 <copumpkin> also, hi shachaf :)
23:11:19 <copumpkin> I'm stuck at ORD for another hour and a bit
23:11:22 * copumpkin sighs loudly
23:11:36 <Zarutian> copumpkin: what is ORD in this context?
23:13:16 <copumpkin> a very large airport in Chicago
23:13:47 <wob_jonas> copumpkin: on the way away, or on the way home?
23:14:48 <Zarutian> copumpkin: oh, I didnt catch that from context. Like KEF or BIRK, I gather.
23:15:18 <copumpkin> wob_jonas: way home :) second layover
23:15:25 <copumpkin> can't wait to lie down in my bed
23:17:44 <Zarutian> airports, it reminds me. A guy I heard of took a frozen water bottle through security because he successfully argued it was not a liquid. Frankly I think the security guys just saw that was water ice and didnt bother further than putting it through the x ray machine.
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23:21:09 <Zarutian> Pretty cool I thought.
23:22:15 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: btw ftp://ftp.cs.utk.edu/pub/shuford/terminal/all_about_sixels.txt should illuminate sixels
23:22:26 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: hmm, how does that work? does he pour the melted part of the water on the floor right before he gets to the front of the queue of security?
23:23:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
23:24:00 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: nope, wetish paper towel evaporation cooling. Though he could just have as easily just drunk the melted part before getting to the front of the queue.
23:24:27 <wob_jonas> I see
23:25:08 <wob_jonas> I know the security people do sometimes let you through even with forbidden objects, I've seen and heard of examples
23:25:15 <Zarutian> the 'no liquids' crap is generally considered rather idiotic by all.
23:25:46 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: no it's not! it's actually one of the more brilliant parts of the rule
23:26:08 <wob_jonas> it makes many people buy drinks in the part of the airplane after security
23:26:15 <wob_jonas> great way to sell stuff
23:26:37 <Zarutian> or just fill up at the drinking fountain after security.
23:26:42 <wob_jonas> just like how the hand baggage size is also checked only at security, and anything you buy after, including large wine bottles, doesn't count in it
23:26:57 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: sure, some of them do that. I sometimes do too.
23:27:04 <wob_jonas> I've done both, I think
23:27:15 <Zarutian> I swear those hand baggage size shrinks every year
23:27:53 <Zarutian> not that I travel much
23:28:07 <Zarutian> just heard stories from people that do
23:28:12 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: no, it's more like the atoms are getting bigger in every object because of the Hubble constant
23:29:13 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: that is not even internally consistant. Because if they did get bigger then the relative sizes of objects wouldnt change.
23:29:45 <wob_jonas> I know
23:30:58 <Zarutian> it is just that airlines seem to follow the same semi-parabolic pattern, on large scale, that their airplanes do on small scale.
23:31:39 <wob_jonas> what? airplanes are shrinking too?
23:31:44 <wob_jonas> or growing? or what?
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23:32:49 <Zarutian> lesse how can I explain this.
23:33:18 <wob_jonas> or... planes are free falling to the ground in a parabolic path?
23:33:58 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: I said semi-parabolic. They take off get up to crusing altitude then dive and land.
23:36:15 <Zarutian> the Hubble constant is basically saying that more space pops into existance over time. If we think of space as made up of biased smallscale randomly connected graph of planc sized cells then there is new cells coming into existance or at least connecting themselfs into the graph all over the place then...
23:37:51 <Zarutian> ... then it should be rather obvious that atoms which are mostly empty get bigger too at nearly the same rate.
23:39:03 <Zarutian> (the biasing of the graph is basically how space folds and gravity emerges)
23:41:44 <zzo38> Someone had before ask me to make up a Magic: the Gathering card "Demons In Your Nose {UB}", and now maybe they should be added into esolang wiki in article about undefined behaviour or maybe it should go only in the talk page instead.
23:42:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Undefined behavior]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50850&oldid=35567 * Zzo38 * (+251)
23:43:02 <Zarutian> somebody used Cs undefined behaviour to lure in nasal demons and capture them?
23:43:59 <zzo38> I don't think so.
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23:47:42 <shachaf> copumpkin: hi
23:48:16 <shachaf> I've been to MDW but never to ORD.
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23:53:50 <zzo38> About my previous question, what I found is that MegaZeux just uses glTexSubImage2D to update the texture during each frame.
23:54:15 <copumpkin> shachaf: ah, I never have
23:54:19 <copumpkin> I've never actually been to chicago
23:54:21 <copumpkin> just through ORD
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00:01:54 <shachaf> Neither have I.
00:02:04 <shachaf> But maybe I should go?
00:02:07 <zzo38> Ruins {-} Land ;; {T}: Add {0} to your mana pool.
00:03:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
00:05:10 <shachaf> What uses can you think of for that jam?
00:11:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:11:22 <zzo38> What jam?
00:11:32 <shachaf> I mean the card.
00:11:41 <zzo38> O, OK. I don't know.
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00:32:06 <oerjan> `? life
00:32:07 <HackEgo> life? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:32:14 <oerjan> `dowg life
00:32:15 <HackEgo> No output.
00:32:39 <oerjan> `le/rn life//‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
00:32:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'life': ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
00:34:18 <quintopia> helloerjan
00:34:31 <oerjan> quinightopia
00:39:06 <Zarutian> `? herbal life
00:39:07 <HackEgo> herbal life? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:39:43 <quintopia> bye then
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01:18:14 <oerjan> `iata ORD
01:18:15 <HackEgo> Chicago Ohare Intl (ORD, KORD)
01:30:25 <fizzie> I think that's missing an apostrophe.
01:30:29 <fizzie> It's O'Hare.
01:30:53 <oerjan> shocking
01:31:54 <fizzie> I think I've been to six airports in the US, and that's one of them.
01:36:19 <oerjan> hm i've been to five or six, i think, i'm not entirely sure. all west or east coast though.
01:37:17 <oerjan> my memory is fuzzy on which one we returned from the last time i was there.
01:38:16 <oerjan> so it may or may not have been the same as another one.
01:38:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Saihv * New user account
01:43:24 <oerjan> @tell Zarutian <Zarutian> ... then it should be rather obvious that atoms which are mostly empty get bigger too at nearly the same rate. <-- possible atom sizes are quantized, though. perhaps an electron might be pushed into a bigger orbital, briefly, with some miniscule probability.
01:43:24 <lambdabot> Zarutian lets you know: Use memoserv if you want to send me a message when I am offline. Will ignore lambdabot message.
01:43:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:44:04 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
01:44:07 <oerjan> *sigh*
01:44:11 <shachaf> Zarutian gets special treatment in lambdabot?
01:44:20 <oerjan> anyone can.
01:44:22 <shachaf> @help tell
01:44:22 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
01:44:23 <shachaf> @list tell
01:44:23 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages auto-reply auto-reply? clear-auto-reply
01:44:28 <shachaf> @help auto-reply
01:44:28 <lambdabot> auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message
01:45:37 -!- nooga has joined.
01:46:46 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s,Betty Crocker,Zarutian,
01:46:48 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Zarutian. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:47:25 <shachaf> @messages-gourd
01:47:25 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
01:48:36 <oerjan> `revert
01:48:37 <HackEgo> Done.
01:49:08 <oerjan> `dontaskdonttelllist
01:49:08 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ c​o​p​p​r​o​ m​y​n​a​m​e​
01:49:32 <shachaf> that's p. out of date
01:49:49 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:50:25 <oerjan> hm shouldn't use sled on that file.
01:50:45 <shachaf> Why?
01:50:54 <oerjan> because it's nopinged
01:51:36 <shachaf> Ah.
01:51:38 <oerjan> `` head -1 bin/dontaskdonttelllist
01:51:38 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./&​/g' | xargs; exit
01:52:03 <oerjan> `cat bin/noping
01:52:04 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | sed 's/\(..\)/\1​/g'
01:53:36 <oerjan> `` sled bin/dontaskdonttelllist//s,coppro,alercah, | rot13
01:53:40 <HackEgo> ova/qbagnfxqbaggryyyvfg//rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | frq 'f/./&​/t' | knetf; rkvg \ dhvagbcvn \ nyrepnu \ zlanzr
01:53:50 <shachaf> Good thing I'm not on dontaskdonttelllist
01:54:09 <oerjan> well it's not the list for fun puns
01:54:17 <shachaf> Also you ended up pinging you-know-whom anyway.
01:54:27 <oerjan> i know.
01:54:39 <oerjan> but not the other two.
01:55:11 <alercah> please remove me from the list anyway
01:55:18 <oerjan> OH NO
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01:55:41 <oerjan> `` sled bin/dontaskdonttelllist///alercah/d | rot13
01:55:43 <HackEgo> ova/qbagnfxqbaggryyyvfg//rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | frq 'f/./&​/t' | knetf; rkvg \ dhvagbcvn \ zlanzr
01:59:36 <oerjan> i guess Zarutian shall remain ignorant about his crackpottery.
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03:20:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50851&oldid=50842 * Saihv * (+89) /* Introductions */
03:21:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50852&oldid=50851 * Saihv * (+78) /* Introductions */
03:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eitherf*ck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50853&oldid=46439 * Saihv * (+125) Added eitherf*ck interpreter details
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03:42:09 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s3HfIuof38
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03:57:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eitherf*ck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50854&oldid=50853 * Saihv * (+1)
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06:49:45 <zzo38> I used exiftool to strip Exif data from a photograph, but now I want to add back in the resolution info, and I don't know how to do that. Do you know? (I also will determine the resolution by my own measurements rather than using the data that it used to have)
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15:07:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:David.werecat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50855&oldid=39799 * David.werecat * (-63)
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15:25:51 <oerjan> Girl Genius: i suspect colette is breaking through there...
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15:43:54 <int-e> . o O ( good-bye Paris )
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15:46:03 <int-e> oerjan: told ya the city net's probably crowded ;)
15:46:54 <oerjan> well, the _huge_ entity is presumably simon voltaire himself.
15:47:36 <int-e> probably, and the other one might be our duplicitous clank friend
15:47:50 <oerjan> that's what i was assuming.
15:49:05 <int-e> (heh heh, "duplicitous")
15:50:01 <oerjan> are you saying you _did_ not do that on purpose, i am disappointed.
15:50:19 <int-e> No, I did.
15:51:25 <oerjan> . o O ( i don't think "No, I did" is correct english grammar )
15:51:43 <oerjan> or is it, argh
15:51:51 <int-e> I thought I outdid myself there, so I allowed myself a little chuckle. :-P
15:53:37 <int-e> oerjan: perhaps it would have been cleaner with a period instead of a comma.
15:54:11 <oerjan> so it would.
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16:49:26 <\oren\> Elizabeth II Sapphire Jubilee!
16:49:29 <\oren\> 65 years on the throne!
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16:52:19 <\oren\> hah, Charles will never be king at this rate
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17:25:05 <Taneb> \oren\, he's already almost 10 years older than Edward VII was when he acceded
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17:28:26 <\oren\> now the leftists are like, "Save us, corporate overlords!"
17:28:47 <\oren\> *sob*
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19:36:32 <hppavilion1> `? English
19:36:33 <HackEgo> English is an inherently ambiguous context-sensitive language that is too powerful to fully describe itself.
19:40:39 <int-e> `? fake
19:40:40 <HackEgo> fake? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:41:12 <int-e> . o O ( fake = not pro-Trump )
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22:54:15 <boily> `wisdom
22:54:17 <HackEgo> dwfo//DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra.
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23:28:16 <boily> Concerto in Towing Pickup Siren ♪
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23:28:38 <boily> `relcome mecha_ma`
23:28:41 <HackEgo> mecha_ma`: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:28:54 <shachaf> `5 w
23:28:58 <HackEgo> 1/2:alg. ii//Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such. \ termite//Termites are genericized ants for intellectual property reasons. \ ratatouille//A ratatouille is a stuttering rodent. \ ladder jump//Ladder jump is the phenomenon that in practically all platformer games where the player character can climb u
23:29:23 <shachaf> `spam
23:29:24 <HackEgo> 2/2:p on ladders, it's faster to repeatedly jump and grab the ladder than to climb. \ ginorst//Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
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23:31:33 <boily> alakra: hellorcah. haven't forgotten you about Feb 12. the instructions will be available probably tomorrow.
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23:33:49 <boily> alercah, alercah_, not the other tabconfusable one: Feb 12. it isn't forgotten.
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23:35:48 <boily> Tanelle.
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00:04:24 <oerjan> `learn_append dwfo http://thedwfo.org
00:04:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'dwfo': DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra. http://thedwfo.org
00:05:17 <oerjan> hm
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00:05:47 <oerjan> `slwd dwfo//s[.] /, </;s/$/>/
00:05:49 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 17: unterminated `s' command
00:06:05 <oerjan> `slwd dwfo//s/[.] /, </;s/$/>/
00:06:07 <HackEgo> dwfo//DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra, <http://thedwfo.org>
00:06:30 <oerjan> `slwd dwfo//s/$/./
00:06:32 <HackEgo> dwfo//DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra, <http://thedwfo.org>.
00:11:09 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
00:11:10 <lambdabot> ENVA 062350Z VRB05KT CAVOK M02/M10 Q1035 RMK WIND 670FT 15017G29KT
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01:37:08 <doesthiswork> a neighbor just tried to register her phone with my computer
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02:41:55 <\oren\> when is the second americna civil war scheduled for?
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04:21:16 <hppavilion1> doesthiswork: Did you allow it then steal all her shit?
04:21:52 <pikhq> \oren\: Sometime this year, I think.
04:24:02 <tswett> Hey, what programming languages are out there that have a type system whose power level is on par with Haskell and Scala?
04:24:30 <pikhq> ML?
04:24:51 <pikhq> (and its family, such as Ocaml)
04:25:50 <shachaf> organic caml
04:26:51 <tswett> I'm writing some neural net software in Scala and I'm wondering if I should move to a different language.
04:27:08 <hppavilion1> I prefer Ωcaml
04:27:31 <tswett> Scala is treating me pretty well. I think if I were to do what I'm doing in, say, F#, it would just break down and cry.
04:27:44 <hppavilion1> tswett: Also, are Haskell and Scala's type systems' power level... over 9000?
04:28:09 <tswett> I can't think of a funny answer to that question.
04:28:33 <hppavilion1> tswett: Probably something regarding proof ordinals?
04:28:44 <tswett> Ah, right.
04:29:03 <tswett> hppavilion1: yes. In fact, their power level is an ordinal number which cannot be proven to exist in Peano arithmetic.
04:30:51 <hppavilion1> tswett: (a) Are proof ordinals applicable in this context [probably yes] (b) Have the proof ordinals of Haskell and Scala's type systems been found (c) Are they particularly interesting ordinals, or just a "whatever" ordinal (d) what are they?
04:30:59 <hppavilion1> Oh, and (e) are they the same?
04:31:23 <tswett> (a) dunno (b) see (a) (c) see (b) (d) see (c) (e) see (d)
04:32:47 <tswett> All righty, lemme see.
04:33:01 <tswett> ML doesn't have typeclasses, but it has "modules", which feel familiar from Scala and Coq.
04:33:36 <tswett> A module can contain type and function definitions, but it can also contain abstract types and abstract functions, to be filled in later by means of inheritance.
04:33:47 <tswett> Scala traits have the same property.
04:33:51 <tswett> As do Coq modules.
04:37:55 <tswett> Yeah, I guess my main alternatives here are probably Haskell and the dependently typed ones: Coq, Agda, Idris.
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11:37:56 <boily> `wisdom
11:37:57 <HackEgo> costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them.
11:43:30 <b_jonas> `cwlprits life
11:43:32 <HackEgo> oerjän
11:45:53 <boily> `? life
11:45:54 <HackEgo> ​‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
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13:15:13 <b_jonas> `xkcdwhatiflist
13:15:14 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: xkcdwhatiflist: not found
13:15:34 <b_jonas> `xkcdwhatiflist 153
13:15:34 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: xkcdwhatiflist: not found
13:17:00 <b_jonas> and it actually looks like an interesting one
13:17:59 <b_jonas> though I think it's wrong
13:23:49 <b_jonas> `quote
13:23:49 <HackEgo> 183) <Sgeo> Is there a name for something where I'm more attracted to someone if I know they've had a rough past? <variable> Sgeo, "Little Shop of Horrors"
13:23:51 <b_jonas> `scheme
13:23:51 <HackEgo> Nothing Can Stop Me Now
13:23:58 <b_jonas> `scheme
13:23:59 <HackEgo> The Fate of the Flammable
13:24:14 <b_jonas> `recipe
13:24:15 <HackEgo> n Additoin. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CARROT CACOA CHILI CHICKEN \ Categories: Beverages, Fish, Sauces \ Yield: 4 Servings \ \ ----------------------- \ 2 lb Ground pork; lightly beaten \ 1 tb Heavy cream \ 1/2 c Milk \ 2 tb Canned cooked pineapple, chopped \ 1 ts Cinnamon \ 1 ts Baking
13:24:21 <b_jonas> `recipe
13:24:22 <HackEgo> v8.05 \ \ Title: CONELLY SAUCE CAKE \ Categories: Cakes, Chocolate, Meats, Beverages \ Yield: 4 Servings \ \ 2 c Chicken broth \ 2 tb Sesame seeds \ 1 tb Parsley, dried \ 1 ts Vanilla extract \ 2/3 c Lite red pepper sauce \ 2 ts Vanilla extract \ 1 ts Ground cinnamon \ 1/4 ts Pepper \ 1/8 ts Pepper \ Brown sugar \ 2 tb Sugar \ 1
13:24:29 <b_jonas> `recipe
13:24:30 <HackEgo> ​ Sprigs of diced \ Sour cream \ -chopped onions \ -about 2 oz. salt \ Gined orange peeling skin \ -2 tbsp. \ 1/4 ts Black pepper \ \ Combine the milk, the tomatoes, banana, and salt in a small bowl, mix together the pepper and salt and \ pepper. Whisk in the coconut. Reduce the heat and simmer, uncovered, 20 \ minutes. Stir in remaini
13:36:08 <b_jonas> What is the name for that general scheme for representing algebraic types in untyped lambda calculus?
13:41:15 <b_jonas> you know, the one where you represent a tuple (x,y) by (\f.fxy) and you represent (Left x) by (\f.\g.fx) and (Right y) by (\f.\g.gy)
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14:09:21 <oerjan> `` ls bin/xk*
14:09:22 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/xk*: No such file or directory
14:13:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: church encoding or scott encoding (they're different when the types are recursive)
14:16:15 <oerjan> hm i may be confused about the differences
14:21:22 <oerjan> hm or wikipedia's scott encoding article is confused.
14:26:33 <oerjan> and the church encoding article only looks at limited examples, and seems to contradict the scott article for lists.
14:28:36 <oerjan> (i think the problem amounts to "church encoding is much more complicated for general recursive data types)
14:28:41 <oerjan> *")
14:31:53 <b_jonas> oerhan: thanks
14:32:46 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe they differ in how they define the algebraic data types that they are trying to encode?
14:33:29 <oerjan> well, church encoding needs to know how a type occurs recursively in itself, in order to create well-typed representations
14:34:17 <oerjan> while scott encoding doesn't bother with that, so treats constructors as not caring what's put into them
14:35:28 <b_jonas> ok... though just from that, church encoding could still be a special case of scott encoding
14:36:07 <oerjan> not really. there's only one scott encoding for a type.
14:38:09 <b_jonas> ah, I see!
14:38:47 <b_jonas> according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#List_encodings , lists are encoded in some strange way, as tagged stuff rather than enums
14:39:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: yes, that article is really confused.
14:39:15 <oerjan> that's not a well-typed representation at all.
14:39:16 <b_jonas> I never understood why they'd do that in lambda calculus
14:39:50 <b_jonas> I mean, I can understand why you'd encode enums as a tagged struct in some languages
14:39:56 <b_jonas> just not in lambda calculus
14:39:58 <oerjan> the right fold representation is the well typed one.
14:41:29 <b_jonas> in fact
14:41:39 <oerjan> the one pair version is a cute hack
14:41:53 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding doesn't even seem to tell how to encode an arbitrary algebraic type in lambda calculus
14:42:02 <b_jonas> as in directly
14:42:04 <oerjan> right
14:42:34 <b_jonas> it just encodes Lists and some other types, though of course there are ways to encode algebraic types as Lists
14:43:16 <oerjan> i think the problem is, that to many people, "church encoding" is just a general term for any way of encoding stuff in lambda calculus.
14:43:24 <b_jonas> possible
14:43:28 <b_jonas> oh by the way
14:43:37 <oerjan> and that article is written from that viewpoint.
14:45:00 <b_jonas> you know how there's Gödel encoding, which encodes statements of some logical system as natural numbers, and it works by first writing the statement as a list of characters from some character set, and then encodes that list of characters to a number?
14:45:18 <b_jonas> for a long time I didn't understand why they encode a flat list this way, rather than some recursive structure
14:45:21 <b_jonas> but now I found out
14:45:47 <oerjan> hm?
14:46:11 <b_jonas> does my initial question make sense about why this is a flat list, as opposed to a parse tree?
14:46:17 <b_jonas> I'll tell the solution afterwards
14:46:25 <oerjan> yes. and i have a guess at the answer...
14:46:52 <oerjan> it's possible that peano arithmetic or whatever isn't powerful enough to recurse into such a structure.
14:47:06 <b_jonas> yes, something like that
14:47:39 <b_jonas> this encoding is used to show that proof is definable in a particular weak system
14:48:33 <b_jonas> that system is Robinson arithmetic, which is a crazy weak logical system
14:49:04 <oerjan> the other guess is that gödel just didn't think of doing it that way, and it works with characters.
14:49:16 <oerjan> both may be true simultaneously, of course.
14:49:19 <b_jonas> Robinson arithmetic is so weak that you can't really prove anything in it,
14:50:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: Gödel himself isn't too relevant here, he's the first one who did this and so his name is used, but people later defined other versions of the encoding and still used flat lists
14:50:43 <b_jonas> Robinson arithmetic has a language that has addition and multiplication
14:50:45 <b_jonas> but not power
14:50:51 <oerjan> i guess robinson arithmetic cannot do exponentials, which is sort of essential to nesting the construction.
14:51:02 <b_jonas> as such, it is not even obvious why you can manipulate flat lists with it
14:51:13 <b_jonas> or why you'd choose to work with such a crazy system
14:51:21 <b_jonas> why you don't just choose one that has lists built in or something
14:51:38 <b_jonas> anyway, it turns out there's some crazy trick that lets you define lists in Robinson arithmetic
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14:53:01 <b_jonas> and lets define getting the nth element of a list
14:53:04 <oerjan> obviously you choose to work with it because you want to find the weakest system where gödel's theorem works
14:53:08 <b_jonas> which means you can also quantify over all elements of the list
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14:53:49 <b_jonas> so you can express a statement that something is true for all adjacent pairs of elements of a list, or similar
14:54:19 <b_jonas> but it wouldn't directly let you express that something is true for all elements of a tree, except by going through flat lists
14:55:03 <b_jonas> you can define cons, car, cdr if you want, but you can't directly state a statement that something is true everywhere on a tree, so you can't define whole tree transformations
14:55:17 <b_jonas> you can do anything with a tree too of course, but only by using lists first
14:55:30 <b_jonas> so since they have to use lists in first place, they didn't go on
14:55:56 <oerjan> mhm
14:56:22 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe, though "weakest" is somewhat subjective
14:56:45 <b_jonas> there is at least one system that is neither weaker neither stronger than RA that you can also use for this
14:57:28 <oerjan> i didn't say you _could_ find the weakest system, i said you _wanted_ to hth
14:57:33 <b_jonas> sure
14:57:49 <b_jonas> anyway, yes, there is some reason to use that system
14:57:59 <b_jonas> or at least some similar system with the same problem
15:00:28 <b_jonas> and even if you use another system, you'll probably run into this same problem
15:01:01 <b_jonas> even if you have a system that has first-class lists, unless it has something like a crazy multi-level tree indexing primitive or something
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15:17:34 <oerjan> oh the one pair encoding is sourced from tromp's paper
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16:02:55 <int-e> AFAIR the "crazy trick" is just based on the fact that there are finite arithmetic sequences of pairwise coprime numbers of arbitrary length (and size of numbers), plus the CRT.
16:04:26 <int-e> so... basically f(a,b,c)[n] = c % (a + b*n) can encode arbitrary finite lists
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16:23:26 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, something like that
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17:04:11 <rdococ> /haɪ/
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17:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50856&oldid=50511 * Osuka * (+173)
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20:04:07 <shachaf> fizzie: Should I use Kubernetes to manage jobs and things?
20:24:37 <\oren\> 𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄𝔄
20:24:39 <\oren\> 𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸𝔸
20:25:03 <\oren\> I need an email of someone who understands techspeak
20:25:20 <\oren\> not a customer suport
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20:41:15 <fizzie> shachaf: It sounds kuul. I think you should.
20:41:32 <shachaf> Are you?
20:41:50 <fizzie> I'm not really managing anything.
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20:44:04 <fizzie> Also upon further reflection, I don't think I really want monitoring as such, mostly because I don't have anything that gets traffic. I think I'm more interested in just making up arbitrary long-term time series that can then be turned into those wiggly lines, and the monitoring/alerting aspect is more of an afterthought. And that's why I'm using InfluxDB instead of Prometheus.
20:44:14 <fizzie> (I read those threads about long-term storage in Prometheus.)
20:44:27 <shachaf> Makes sense.
20:45:11 <shachaf> And you don't want to join, I guess, is the other constraint.
20:45:54 <shachaf> What sort of query language should you use for querying time series databases?
20:45:59 <shachaf> You should invent a good one.
20:46:27 <shachaf> But I guess first you should stop working at your current employer, so that you can release it.
20:48:32 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure the query language should be inherently time-oriented.
20:48:50 <fizzie> Speaking of scow, Bazel doesn't have proto_library either.
20:49:04 <shachaf> I didn't specify that it should be.
20:49:21 <shachaf> What does it have?
20:49:48 <fizzie> There's an objc_proto_library, which is documented in be to have "proto_library dependencies", but there's no proto_library.
20:50:19 <fizzie> And there's a proto_lang_toolchain, which "Specifies how a LANG_proto_library rule (e.g., java_proto_library) should invoke the proto-compiler", but there's no java_proto_library either.
20:50:40 <shachaf> You can try https://github.com/pubref/rules_protobuf
20:50:45 <fizzie> (Actually AIUI it does in fact have built-in rules for java_proto_library and friends, but they're undocumented and not working correctly.)
20:51:35 <fizzie> It does have https://github.com/bazelbuild/bazel/blob/master/tools/build_rules/genproto.bzl
20:52:45 <fizzie> They're supposed to open-source the real proto_library and java_proto_library and such, but it doesn't have those yet.
20:53:14 <shachaf> I tried writing some Buck macros for protoc ones but it was kind of scow.
20:54:08 <shachaf> There's no equivalent of Scowlark
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21:20:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Finianb1 * New user account
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21:29:43 <\oren\> https://www.rt.com/usa/376621-trump-korea-putin-crimea-waters/
21:29:48 <\oren\> US congresswoman thinks Putin is invading Korea kekekekekekekekeke
21:34:17 <int-e> Crimea, Korea?
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21:35:50 <\oren\> int-e: and this morning Nancy Pelosi called Trump "President Bush"
21:36:12 <int-e> I'm not sure that either Bush deserves that kind of insult.
21:36:33 <\oren\> maybe she wishes "Jeb!" was the president
21:48:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50857&oldid=50852 * Finianb1 * (+169)
21:49:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50858&oldid=50857 * Finianb1 * (+17)
21:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50859&oldid=50856 * Finianb1 * (+181) Add a Quine
21:51:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50860&oldid=50859 * Finianb1 * (+1) /* Quine */
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21:57:06 <int-e> s/shellcode/ethical hacking/, cute
21:57:28 <int-e> (second edit of the last four)
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22:14:02 <\oren\> kek
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23:23:52 <boily> @metar CYUL
23:23:52 <lambdabot> CYUL 072321Z 05021G27KT 4SM -SN DRSN SCT015 OVC025 M10/M13 A2975 RMK SC3SC5 PRESFR SLP080
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23:29:00 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/VLenin_1917
23:29:44 <shachaf> lenin was too good
23:29:58 <shachaf> you should be a revolutionary like lenin
23:30:37 <\oren\> by following this account and the others linked to it, you can see the russian revolution reenacted on Twitter
23:31:17 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/RT_1917
23:32:03 <boily> да здравствует партия!
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23:37:56 <boily> fungot: do you embrace any political ideology?
23:37:56 <fungot> boily: any where eof=0 and cells wrap ( at 8 bits) by char
23:38:11 <boily> fungot: playing it safe.
23:38:11 <fungot> boily: lots of extras. is easier to match brackets on
23:38:24 <boily> fungot: of course, I say.
23:38:25 <fungot> boily: i haven't cited these because i don't understand how to program without becoming a rainbow
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23:38:52 <boily> `addquote <fungot> boily: i haven't cited these because i don't understand how to program without becoming a rainbow
23:38:52 <fungot> boily: then launch fnord with mutalisks and zerglings to keep defenses busy while mutalisks bombed from above
23:38:54 <HackEgo> 1310) <fungot> boily: i haven't cited these because i don't understand how to program without becoming a rainbow
23:39:17 <boily> hellfnørdjan.
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23:41:58 <oerjan> helłily.
23:42:31 <shachaf> yo doerjan
23:42:43 <oerjan> whachaf?
23:42:55 <shachaf> yo dawg, oerjan
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23:44:39 <oerjan> okay̼
23:50:20 <fizzie> fungot: You're a rainbow
23:50:20 <fungot> fizzie: only that it wasn't absolutely bios dependent
23:51:01 <shachaf> fungot isn't absolutely bios dependent?
23:51:02 <fungot> shachaf: in the same way as bfbasic) so far
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00:05:20 * oerjan gives boily a heimlich maneuver so he can cough up that mahjong tile
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00:39:48 <boily> `wisdom
00:39:49 <HackEgo> xml//XML stands for "X-treme Mega Language (of Awesomeness)"
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00:52:31 * Zarutian saw a news item that Hans Rosling had died and is a bit sad.
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02:08:02 <boily> @tell alercah hellorcahello. Baobab, 4800 Wellington H4G 1X2, Feb 12, 12pm.
02:08:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:08:08 <oerjan> first world problem: someone at the grocery shop put a bread of the cheapest kind in a bag for one of the fancier ones (3-4 times the price)
02:09:14 <alercah> ty
02:09:40 <boily> I will yakuman you into oblivion, just watch me :P
02:09:45 <alercah> boily: confirm it's in verdun?
02:09:59 <boily> yup. either de l'Église or Verdun station, your choice.
02:10:14 <boily> oerjan: that is terrible!
02:11:04 <oerjan> not as bad as when they don't manage to bake it properly, anyway.
02:11:57 <oerjan> or as that time i found a rusty screw inside, i may have told that on the channel
02:11:58 <boily> many summers ago I worked the boulangerie at a supermarket. exactly 100% of what was sold came flash frozen in cardboard boxes.
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