00:00:07 <oerjan> although the actual ripping apart only takes a fraction of a second iirc
00:00:19 <ehird> do you just like, gradually lose all sight of the outside world and freeze in time
00:00:31 <ehird> like, do you just die when time becomes infinitely slow, or does it just slow down (you don't notice of course)
00:00:38 <ehird> and so you live and die eventually of starvation/thirst etc
00:00:41 <ehird> assuming this magic pod
00:00:44 <lament> you die way before time slows down significantly
00:00:49 <ehird> and to everyone else you just move into it slower and slower
00:00:56 <ehird> lament: well, yeah
00:01:02 <ehird> let's assume we're superhuman and live for thousands of years
00:01:16 <lament> the time slows down from the outside observer's perspective
00:01:28 <ehird> right, so my pod goes slower and slower
00:01:30 <lament> for you, the time in the universe outside the hole correspondingly speeds up
00:01:38 <lament> so very soon after, the universe ends
00:01:57 <ehird> lament: but you never lose sight of the outside world?
00:02:17 <Ilari> Assuming very large black hole, the radius where gravitational tidal forces become too large is inside the black hole.
00:02:38 <oerjan> naturally light from the outside will keep coming in...
00:03:17 <lament> according to one theory, you fall into the hole, everything flashes white as the whole remaining time of the outside universe "flashes before your eyes", and you get exploded outward in a white hole in a new universe
00:03:23 <ehird> so if i wave (really quickly so it's normal for the outside; I'm magic), no matter how far in I am, the outside can still see me?
00:03:40 <lament> ehird: the light can't get out
00:03:45 <oerjan> of course this is all assuming the inside actually exists, and is just not a mathematical abstraction that physically really stops at the horizon (outer boundary)
00:04:05 <lament> oerjan: it would certainly be a bit strange if "reality stopped" there, no?
00:04:09 <ehird> who's a christian?
00:04:14 <ehird> plz pray to god for one of dem pods
00:04:18 <ehird> I'm going to do some experimental physics
00:05:49 * Sgeo knows Christians
00:05:54 <oerjan> lament: sure but it might be where the holographic theory actually hits reality... the surface of the black hole being where you actually hit on the universe being 2-dimensional in a quantum sense. but now i am blathering.
00:06:06 <ehird> oerjan: that sounds trippy
00:06:12 <ehird> i'll take some drugs in the pod.
00:06:22 <ehird> maybe I can experience quantum fabric.
00:06:35 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
00:06:43 <ehird> (can i just say that quantum foam is one of my favourite names for anything ever)
00:06:59 <lament> oerjan: as i understand there's a whole bunch of theories for what happens inside
00:07:09 <ehird> oerjan: "string theory" sidebar spotted
00:07:28 <Ilari> The gravititational fields in/near black hole are so extreme, that even GR breaks down at some point. But what is not known where it breaks down. Outside the event horzion, at event horizon or somewhere very near the central singularity.
00:08:05 <ehird> lament: with the "everything goes quickly and universe ends" thing, I assume the universe ends before you actually hit the singularity?
00:08:39 <lament> i guess it depends on whether the universe is finite :)
00:09:36 <ehird> what if someone else came in a pod at the exact same time?
00:09:44 <ehird> could you see them? could they see you? are your times the same?
00:11:15 <lament> are your shoe sizes the same?
00:11:29 <oerjan> ehird: by the equations of general relativity, once you pass the horizon there is a finite time from your perspective until you hit the inner singularity
00:11:56 <lament> oerjan: but would the universe end before that?
00:12:11 <oerjan> now if those finite times overlap for the two pods, i would assume they could interact if the inner space actually exists
00:12:16 <ehird> has anyone ever noticed how arbitrary physics is :P
00:12:28 <ehird> lament: before you hit
00:12:31 <ehird> if the universe ends you cannot hit
00:12:34 <ehird> so it has to be before
00:13:38 <oerjan> ehird: you do realize that the relativity of simultaneity inside a black hole is so great that it might not make sense to speak of whether the outer universe has ended or not?
00:14:45 <lament> oerjan: but wouldn't the hole have evaporated by then???
00:15:03 <oerjan> its horizon would ... but would the inside?
00:15:23 <ehird> so wait, if it's subjective whether the universe is ended
00:15:25 <ehird> we just need a huge pod
00:15:33 <ehird> and stuff everyone (now immortal) in it
00:15:35 <ehird> go into a black hole
00:15:42 <ehird> infinitely long-lasting universe
00:17:42 <oerjan> i'm sure there must be some scifi based on that idea
00:18:27 <ehird> we need a branch of physics just dedicated to finding out all the awesome shit you could do if the pod existed.
00:30:58 -!- coppro has joined.
00:45:52 <ehird> so, anyone with Enigma?
00:46:00 <ehird> 0.92-3#16 Almost There
00:46:07 <ehird> protip: third block on the right side
00:46:13 <ehird> apparently it's 6x6 screens big
01:07:54 -!- Asztal has joined.
01:26:04 <ehird> "Microsoft's new Barrelfish OS: built on domain specific languages written in Haskell :: PDF"
01:26:54 <Sgeo> "Where is zero - I can only approach it"
01:27:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:28:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:28:05 <Sgeo> "Sgeo - Any context of zero - it doesn't matter if it is numbers (they make an imaginary place and call it zero) - it is known only by God"
01:28:12 <Sgeo> ^^someone in a Bible channel
01:28:41 <ehird> anyway, surely you have better things to do than troll a bible channel
01:29:19 <Sgeo> When I see someone saying things like "I guess only Our Almighty Father knows how a quark can exist and yet not exist at the same time.", what can I do
01:29:39 <Sgeo> Unless there really is a quantum physics thing with simulantaneous existance/non-existance
01:30:13 <ehird> Realise that they're delusional and believe an inconsistent, unjustified assertion without evidence, and thus cannot be reasoned with and will contradict facts merely because they contradict their own contradictory belief system?
01:31:11 <Sgeo> I'm not even talking about God. I'm talking about science.
01:31:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: You could point out that just because they don't understand something, it doesn't mean that God intends _all_ human beings forever not to understand it.
01:31:32 <ehird> And they will not separate the two; science only comes below God.
01:31:37 <ehird> You are wasting your time.
01:32:04 <Sgeo> oerjan, this guy things he understands things, like how humans don't understand 0 or infinity
01:32:22 <ehird> Of course he doesn't understand things, he's a Christian!
01:32:48 <oerjan> ehird: you're as prejudiced as that guy
01:32:58 <ehird> have you ever read the bible oerjan
01:33:10 <Sgeo> Technically, I haven't seen that guy be prejudiced, just stupid
01:33:32 <coppro> ehird: comments like that indicate your prejudice
01:33:44 <oerjan> ehird: you are refusing to see the point that just because someone believes the bible they don't have to extend their stupidity to _everything_
01:33:49 <Sgeo> ehird, the Bible may be evil, but that doesn't mean Christians are
01:33:55 <ehird> oerjan: of course - but this person clearly DOES
01:34:15 <oerjan> ehird: sure, but it is not _because_ of the bible
01:34:23 <ehird> Anyway, of course I'm prejudiced against idiots. At least my belief system is self-correcting, has shown real results and is not based on unfalsifiable obvious fairy tales.
01:34:28 <coppro> Nothing wrong with the Bible. Not a great read, tough.
01:34:33 <Sgeo> Woohoo! I just proved to myself that I'm capable of disagreeing with ehird!
01:34:39 <ehird> oerjan: considering the bible says so much that is simply not so, scientifically, it totally is
01:35:13 <coppro> ehird: so you hate science fiction?
01:35:16 <Sgeo> ehird, not all Christians are idiots. Not closely examining every little thing that you were taught does not make you an idiot.
01:35:26 <ehird> coppro: I don't believe science fiction is true.
01:35:28 <ehird> If I did I would be an idiot.
01:35:38 <ehird> Sgeo: I never claimed all Christians are idiots.
01:35:42 <ehird> I am talking about *one* *person*.
01:35:53 <Sgeo> "<ehird> Of course he doesn't understand things, he's a Christian!"
01:36:01 <coppro> so basically what you're saying is the Bible is evil because people believe it?
01:36:17 <ehird> coppro: I also never said the bible is evil; please do not take Sgeo's misquotes and apply them to me. thanks.
01:36:28 <ehird> (b) not implying anything
01:36:30 <Sgeo> I'm the one who said the Bible was evil
01:36:40 <ehird> Christians do indeed not understand things; not all things, and I never said they were idiots.
01:36:41 <coppro> ehird: oh wait, I was misreading one of your responses to oerjan
01:36:51 <ehird> But being a Christian in the modern age is, indeed, not understanding things about science.
01:37:02 <coppro> or at least about what is fiction and what isn't
01:37:28 <ehird> the bible's rather shoddy fiction, no coherent plot and a lot of gratuitous explicit scenes, and the hero is a bitch :P
01:38:05 <coppro> I completely agree with you there!
01:38:39 <coppro> But people believing in the Bible and understanding science are not mutually exclusive
01:39:12 <ehird> Considering the Bible states things that are simply scientifically untrue, yes they are
01:39:30 <Sgeo> ehird, unless they read the whole Bible and take the whole thing literally, no
01:39:39 <ehird> "Believing in the Bible" was what was said.
01:40:04 <ehird> But sure, if you believe in an arbitrary subset of the Bible according to an arbitrary interpretation ignoring the text... no, wait, you're still believing in something unfalsifiable given without evidence, so you fail at science.
01:40:08 <Sgeo> It might still be considered to "believe in the Bible" without taking the whole thing loiterally
01:40:39 <coppro> ehird: I know someone who maintains everything in the Bible to be 100% fact while still agreeing with modern science. He gets a bit fuzzy around some bits, but I would not consider himself to be unscientific
01:40:40 <Sgeo> ehird, maybe at applying science to everything, but that doesn't mean you disagree with scientific knowledge
01:41:07 <ehird> coppro: So, let me get this straight: what does he do with his hair? does he stone adulterers?
01:41:14 <ehird> Or has he resigned himself to going to Hell?
01:41:41 <Sgeo> ehird, possibly took the shortcut of saying that Jesus overturned the rules of the OT, or whatever
01:41:43 <coppro> ehird: no, he keeps it shot lest he develop gargantuan strength and accidentally hurt a friend ;)
01:42:08 <ehird> coppro: so, apart from that wink there, he clearly does not take the bible as 100% true
01:42:41 <coppro> ehird: my sarcasm, not his
01:42:49 <coppro> his hair is short though
01:43:03 <ehird> I was simply stating that he empirically does not believe in the Bible totally.
01:43:07 <ehird> and this is undeniable
01:43:41 <coppro> ehird: You'd be surprised. I haven't managed to work out how he manages to believe in modern science and the Bible. But he does.
01:46:32 <ehird> I just disproved it
01:47:07 <coppro> ehird: no, you did not
01:47:50 <ehird> so what does he do with adulterers.
01:48:18 <coppro> to my knowledge he's never encountered one
01:48:21 <coppro> your premise is that a logical belief-system and an illogical one are irreconcilable because they contradict each other. Do note, however, that one of the belief systems is illogical, and thus the combined beliefe system is, by definition, illogical.
01:48:53 <ehird> it's simple, if he doesn't do what the bible says, and he doesn't think he's going to hell, then he does NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE
01:49:46 <coppro> I'd have to ask him on that one
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01:50:53 <coppro> but I suspect that he would say that the specific instructions given in the Bible can only be properly interpreted in their historical context
02:05:55 <ehird> coppro: you mean he doesn't literally believe in the bible? shocking.
02:06:36 <coppro> ehird: He believes in it; he just doesn't take the instructions literally
02:07:21 <ehird> every christian "believes" in the bible by that measure
02:07:38 <ehird> it's only unusual if they believe in what it says as WHAT IT SAYS rather than some extremely hamfisted, arbitrary interpretation of their own design
02:07:54 <Warrigal> Sgeo: did you agree with ehird when you did something and he said that people who do that are idiots?
02:08:24 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I'd need to be reminded of when this was
02:08:35 <Sgeo> Although it sounds familiar, as in, very recent
02:08:45 <ehird> possibly because i do that all the time.
02:08:58 <ehird> But I'm fairly sure Warrigal wouldn't know; he does, after all, have me on ignore.
02:09:01 <coppro> ehird: he believes in the historical account.
02:09:07 <Warrigal> I believe you said "s***", asterisks and all, and he said that self-censorship is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of offense or something.
02:09:27 <ehird> coppro: so he believes in it selectively
02:09:28 <ehird> yes historical accounts
02:09:33 <ehird> i.e., selectively.
02:10:09 <coppro> ehird: if I told you to go pour me a glass of water, and instead you dipped the glass in a pitcher, would you be, for any reasonable definition, violating my instruction?
02:10:18 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I think I might have disagreed, then
02:10:30 <ehird> coppro: yes, if we're talking about interpreting your instructions *literally*
02:10:45 <ehird> we're talking about whether he believes in the bible literally, which is the whole point of the bible: to be believed in as it says
02:10:53 <ehird> coppro: because I didn't pour.
02:10:57 <ehird> I put it in a pitcher instead.
02:11:00 <Warrigal> ...Hey, there are Christians on IRC.
02:11:06 <coppro> ehird: why are we taking everything literally though?
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02:11:27 <ehird> Warrigal: even in here :P
02:12:24 <Warrigal> I wonder where I can find these people.
02:12:42 <ehird> Warrigal: most places. in here, for instance. oh wait you can't hear me
02:13:11 <coppro> Warrigal: Try #christianity or something on a network that tolerates them
02:13:26 * coppro remembers and awesome bash quote now
02:15:08 <Warrigal> I wonder if freenode is a network that tolerates... it.
02:15:25 <coppro> precisely why I mentioned other networks in the first place
02:15:36 <coppro> everything goes on efnet
02:15:41 <ehird> "Come join us in ##religion where the main community is building"
02:15:51 <ehird> A whole 13 people in ##religion.
02:16:28 <Warrigal> freenode policy says that religious "invective" is off-topic. Presumably, civil discussion is just fine.
02:16:40 <ehird> freenode is for peer-directed project.
02:16:51 <ehird> anyway, I don't understand Warrigal; is he realising that there are Christians on IRC at all, or that they might congregate in one channel?
02:43:52 <Sgeo> #atheism, #Bible, and #secondlife
02:44:21 <Warrigal> Is #secondlife a Bible channel?
02:45:04 <ehird> Warrigal: master of asking questions that he knows the answer to.
03:07:34 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
03:41:36 * ehird attempts to find Helvetica and Helvetica Neue in single unified .ttfs with hinting
03:52:58 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
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04:10:36 <ehird> haven't seen your name around here before; new?
04:11:02 <ehird> yes, turn back before the darkness envelops you
04:11:18 <ehird> I presume you're here for the programming languages and not the esoterick magick we sometimes see people after
04:11:53 <ehird> in which case, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page will be useful if you haven't already seen it
04:11:56 <hekau> what makes you think that?
04:12:13 <ehird> hekau: well, because that's what this channel is about and technology is freenode's main topic. i guess my assumption was erroneous?
04:12:45 <hekau> no, the mistake was mine - you are correct. how embarassing.
04:13:06 <hekau> though i am also fond of code
04:13:42 <ehird> technically we only deal in the useless languages, which is closer to esoterica than most related things.
04:14:12 <hekau> brainfuck, for example?
04:14:29 <ehird> that's the canonical example, also: unlambda, intercal
04:14:53 <ehird> anyway, we're off-topic an awful lot, although I doubt we could seriously entertain the topic of magick for more than a few seconds :)
04:15:07 <hekau> i'm not into magick :)
04:15:36 <ehird> i was using it as a blanket term for esoterica, heretical as that may be
04:15:42 <hekau> rather the psychology of the occult - more of an anthropologic perspective, you know?
04:16:07 <ehird> hekau: none of those words make any sense to me and yet they are somehow infinitely intriguing
04:16:11 <ehird> what on earth do you mean
04:16:58 <ehird> well okay, i understand all of them
04:17:32 <hekau> rather than focusing on the application of occult knowledge, i instead enjoy musing with the human aspect of the occult - ie what is it about the occult that appeals to people, where does it derive its power, is it merely a manifestation of subconscious human abilities, etc. etc.
04:17:43 <hekau> why do certain symbols have power
04:17:50 <hekau> or specific connotations within our psyche
04:17:52 <ehird> can i be a cynical bastard and answer that it has no power. :)
04:18:01 <hekau> no, you are absolutely correct
04:18:04 <hekau> the occult has no power
04:18:31 <hekau> and when they exert their will towards a certain goal
04:18:36 <hekau> it gives the illusion of power
04:18:39 <hekau> kind of like a placebo of the mind
04:18:40 <ehird> hekau: so sort of like, what the appeal of the occult is to people? and why it psychologically, causes changes in them?
04:19:34 <ehird> is there an existing stuff on this or is it something you thought up :)
04:20:12 <coppro> ehird: it's called neurosis
04:20:24 <hekau> i'm sure there are people out there who study the occult from the psychological level, but usually they use different terms to avoid the negative connotations
04:20:40 <ehird> [[Neurosis (from the Greek νεύρωσις) refers to a class of functional mental disorder involving distress but neither delusions nor hallucinations]]
04:21:01 <coppro> ehird: don't trust wikipedia
04:21:12 <coppro> Princeton's is better "a mental or personality disturbance not attributable to any known neurological or organic dysfunction "
04:21:29 <hekau> so, coppro, do you refer to the study of neurosis
04:21:30 <ehird> wow that's useless
04:21:33 <hekau> or that i am neurotic?
04:21:40 <ehird> "Neurosis: It's the condition when we don't know what the fuck the condition is!"
04:21:44 <hekau> probably the former
04:21:58 <hekau> then yes, you are exactly correct.
04:22:04 <coppro> see, for example, the placebo effect
04:22:16 <ehird> placebo is about physical
04:22:27 <ehird> as hekau said they're talking about placebo of the mental
04:22:35 <ehird> ^ awkward sentence there
04:22:35 <coppro> but it's caused neurologically
04:23:05 <hekau> neurosis by the princeton definition does apply in this context
04:23:33 <hekau> this example is a bit cliche
04:23:36 <ehird> so wait, coppro uses a term, I dispute it with a definition
04:23:37 <coppro> people experience things that cannot be attributed to any disease simply because they want to
04:23:42 <ehird> he disputes it back with a definition that doesn't apply either
04:23:47 <hekau> but the nazi party is the perfect case of occultism at work
04:24:07 <hekau> that is a form of neurosis
04:24:18 <hekau> ehird - too logical :P
04:24:52 <ehird> anyway, the nazi party didn't really have rituals did it
04:24:57 <ehird> it was just brainwashing of a sort
04:25:12 <coppro> ehird: why do you think double-blind experiments exist? It's well-documented, for instance, that expectations bias even the most meticulous of scientists
04:25:12 <hekau> surprisingly they made heavy use of occult symbolism
04:25:28 <ehird> coppro: I agree; and?
04:25:42 <ehird> hekau: true, but aren't rituals a kinda important aspect of occultism?
04:25:43 <coppro> ehird: it's the same thing
04:25:47 <hekau> the swastika, the symbol for the SS, a skull resting atop two crossed bones, terminology, the linkage between the aryan race and german mythology
04:26:09 <hekau> coppro, ah now were in the realm of werner heisenberg
04:26:18 <coppro> ehird: what hekau was talking about, with people causing their expectations/beliefs to change their perceptions of the world
04:26:36 <ehird> Double blind is just guarding against people giving signals unintentionally.
04:26:47 <hekau> ehird, i'm sure there are rituals as well
04:26:53 <ehird> so guys, did we just go off topic in three lines or what
04:26:56 <hekau> you'd be surprised - let me try to find some
04:26:58 <coppro> ehird: it's more than that
04:27:19 <hekau> ah, wikipedia to the rescue - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_and_Occultism
04:28:05 <hekau> of course they have to name drop aleister crowley in there
04:28:34 <ehird> anyway hitler was a christian, so it seems quite odd to adopt occultism
04:28:34 <coppro> A perfect blind experiment, for instance, requires the researchers setting up the experiment and the researchers measuring the results to be different and unaware of each other
04:28:38 <ehird> then again he wasn't much of a christian.
04:28:55 <ehird> i mean, A+ for the practicing christianity thing, F for killing a bunch of people, you know
04:29:06 <hekau> ehird, the masons, rosicrucians, etc. are all 'christian' orders
04:29:19 <ehird> Masonry isn't anything though.
04:29:26 <hekau> well, not outwardly
04:29:27 <coppro> ehird: he was pretty A+ at killing people
04:29:36 <hekau> but they do require a belief in god
04:29:52 <hekau> coppro, unfortunately
04:30:05 <hekau> this is a good convo.
04:30:14 <ehird> hekau: now, let's not get into conspiracy theories; by all accounts masonry is a bunch of people chatting and considering themselves superior because they act out silly plays and claim to believe in god
04:30:36 <hekau> hekau, i thought you were referring to nothing as in no religious affiliation
04:30:41 * Gregor chants mason voodoo quietly in the corner.
04:30:42 <ehird> besides, they're agnostic as to what religion as long as it has a Supreme Being; although the rest of it may be stepped in Christianity, I don't know
04:30:47 <ehird> hekau: stop talking to yourself!
04:30:58 <ehird> Gregor: Nazi mason voodoo.
04:31:03 <hekau> i have my best conversations with myself
04:31:13 <hekau> nazi mason voodoo of aleister crowley no less
04:31:25 <ehird> nazi mason voodoo of aleister crowley's rubber duck.
04:32:46 <hekau> anyways really we're just dealing with the inherent will of the individual here
04:32:52 <hekau> and not any magic or whatever
04:33:14 <hekau> when enough people believe something it becomes true
04:33:23 <hekau> so there you have it
04:33:34 <ehird> pretty much what i thought prior
04:33:44 <hekau> yeah, but what a shock to all the goths
04:34:11 <ehird> what? why? you just don't appreciate the vibrations, man
04:34:20 <ehird> you just can't accept what uh, isn't real
04:34:36 <hekau> mom, can i summon the devil to help me clean my room?
04:34:56 <Gregor> NOT UNTIL YOU CLEAN YOUR ROOM
04:35:18 <hekau> you don't understand me, mom! nobody does! KORN
04:35:58 <hekau> pantheism is interesting
04:36:03 <hekau> naturalistic pantheism
04:36:18 <Gregor> porntheism is more interesting.
04:36:20 <ehird> pantheism is boring. "if I redefine 'god' to mean 'universe', I can be an atheistic theist! GENIUS!"
04:36:28 <ehird> "i'm so... profound..."
04:37:07 <ehird> i kinda get the feeling someone took einstein's words a bit too literally and came up with pantheism
04:37:26 <coppro> I believe in spooky action at a distance
04:37:37 <hekau> i believe in synchronicity
04:37:56 <hekau> ehird, einstein does get muddled
04:38:03 <ehird> isn't synchronicity just a word for "i don't understand probability-- hey, look, a coincidence!"
04:39:20 <hekau> meaningful coincidence is probabilistic?
04:39:58 <hekau> i can be wrong here, it's cool.
04:41:06 <ehird> I find that synchronicity is always explainable with less hand-waving and metaphysics by probability, the fact that coincidences *do* happen, and the brain's selective remembering: how many instances of non-synchronicity do you remember?! (see also: Baader-Meinhof phenomenon)
04:41:16 <ehird> wtf it was deleted.
04:41:41 <ehird> the basic thing is that you see something, then notice it more
04:41:46 <ehird> because previously, your brain subconsciously ignored it
04:41:52 <ehird> but then when it's brought to your attention...
04:41:59 <ehird> and so, it seems that everyone's finding something at the same time as you
04:42:06 <ehird> your brain becoming more alert to mentionings of it
04:42:10 <hekau> that just sounds like advertising
04:42:28 <hekau> bombard someone with something until they notice
04:42:41 <ehird> it's simply: if you think about something, your brain switches from "subconsciously ignore" to "try to find"
04:42:52 <ehird> advertising could use it, i guess, but it's unrelated
04:43:00 <hekau> i see what you're getting at
04:43:18 <hekau> what's it called...self manifestation or something or other
04:43:37 <ehird> (I'm not sure why it's called that)
04:44:14 <ehird> The "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" was coined by a reader of the St. Paul Pioneer Press. The Minnesota newspaper runs a daily column called "Bulletin Board," for which readers, using pseudonyms, submit humorous or interesting anecdotes. The term was coined when a reader submitted a story around 1986,[1] about how he or she first heard about the terrorist group known as the Baader-Meinhof Gang and then heard about it again a short while later from a totally d
04:44:18 <ehird> http://www.iterasi.net/openviewer.aspx?sqrlitid=vpdslrou9k6lgly97zdw9w
04:44:21 <ehird> copy of the WP article
04:44:59 <hekau> thanks for the article
04:47:32 <ehird> i guess one day we'll have to accept that we're no longer just about the languages :)
04:48:05 <hekau> haha, i'm sorry to drag you all so off topic
04:48:14 <ehird> this is... normal :|
04:48:37 <hekau> well, i'll be off then
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04:48:50 <hekau> it was fun chaps, thanks for humoring me
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04:49:35 <ehird> Stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it and especially stop THAT but stop the emacs too.
04:51:08 <Sgeo[Emacs]> I'm not going to use this as my regular client, incidentally
04:51:08 <ehird> You are using an IRC client written in a dialect of Lisp with no lexical scoping in a no-multitasking, crippled ...thing environment that claims to be an operating system and has so many kludges your brain would hurt.
04:51:20 <ehird> *claims to be an editor
04:51:25 <ehird> Freudian slip there.
04:52:04 <Sgeo[Emacs]> Blame the book I bought at least 9 years ago that I thought would be about Macs
04:52:19 <ehird> No, I blame you because you did this.
04:52:35 <coppro> Whee lack of lexical scoping!
04:52:52 <ehird> At least have the decency to use vim if you're going to be using an awful editor. It has a coherent philosophy of combining commands and what they apply to.
04:53:09 <coppro> languages without lexical scoping are great for some things
04:53:11 <ehird> Test failed because you're using ERC.
04:53:28 <ehird> You are a bad person.
04:54:05 <Sgeo[Emacs]> So, I take it that ehird doesn't like lisp?
04:54:23 <ehird> I never said that.
04:54:41 <Sgeo[Emacs]> If it doesn't have lexical scoping... or is it just elisp that doesn't have it?
04:54:54 <ehird> I dislike Lisps with no lexical scoping, a ton of shitness and a bunch of design decisions firmly rooted in the 80s running in a terrible, crippled single-tasking environment that sucks so much because it used to be an editor.
04:55:04 <ehird> Every Lisp worth its salt has lexical scoping.
04:55:07 <ehird> Every LANGUAGE worth its salt does.
04:55:53 <Sgeo> What happens if I ping Sgeo[Emacs]
04:56:19 <Sgeo> Emacs doesn't react, or otherwise indicate to switch over to it, but the nick's hilighted
05:01:01 <Sgeo[Emacs]> For some reason, emacs got confused and decided that my /server was in this window
05:02:08 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/uLH0g.png
05:02:28 <ehird> Cool, you're not even using EmacsW32.
05:03:32 <Sgeo> I didn't even know it existed. Thanks
05:03:40 <ehird> Use the patched version.
05:03:48 <ehird> Also, hide the toolbar. It's worthless.
05:06:19 <Sgeo[Emacs]> If I said that I was using CUA, what would your reaction be?
05:07:55 <ehird> That's saner than the Emacs bindings. Too bad you broke your C-x key. Oh wait, it has a hack to fix that. Shazam, it sure is nice hacking around the fact that Emacs is a pile of shit.
05:10:00 <Sgeo[Emacs]> Didn't you once tell me to use emacs to edit haskell source?
05:10:17 <ehird> yes, at the time there was nothing better. maybe leksah is decent these days.
05:10:29 <ehird> but definitely not for anything that isn't haskell or lisp editing.
05:11:07 <Sgeo[Emacs]> Being able to click a link and having it open
05:11:27 <ehird> xchat-gnome has that, and I think it's a setting in xchat.
05:13:43 <Sgeo[Emacs]> What's this Pal and Fo... are these just ERC's names for friend and ignore?
05:13:58 <ehird> Emacs, using different, stupid terminology for existing concepts?
05:14:08 <Sgeo> No, it just made my name grey
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05:22:46 <ehird> Doesn't that cut? OH WAIT IT'S BASED ON THE PRESENCE OF A SELECTION AND A TIME DELAY.
05:22:51 <ehird> Emacs kludges, I'm shocked. shocked.
05:25:49 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that C-c C-c might be ambiguous
05:26:22 <Sgeo> Is it C-c - or C-c C-c?
05:28:30 <lament> c-Cc_c-C--CC-C-CCcc-C--C
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05:54:45 <ehird> esco is a running joke here. well, used to be.
05:55:03 <ehird> because it's a shitty idea, and they spammed our wiki.
05:55:10 <Gregor> Until it became so wildly out of date that we forgot about it.
05:55:11 <ehird> also, they live in a warped version of reality;
05:55:17 <ehird> "Byter is a language for training your brain" -esco
05:55:20 <ehird> "Byter is a language for training brains" -esolang wiki
05:55:35 <ehird> Gregor: I liked how they implemented all the BF derivatives with a huge amount of boilerplate
05:56:08 <Rugxulo> wildly out of date? the wiki??
05:57:04 <Rugxulo> I'm wondering what Gregor was referring to
05:57:15 * Rugxulo is looking at the esco package
05:57:34 <Rugxulo> sure, there's a lot of "boilerplate" there, but the GNU Auto{conf,make} stuff takes more room than anything
05:57:36 <ehird> it's shit and the idea is shit
05:57:47 <Rugxulo> written in C++ too (meh) :-/
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05:58:18 <Rugxulo> "now type 'make' and pray"... heh
05:58:45 <pikhq> So much boilerplate...
05:59:01 <pikhq> Guys, you can *totally use macros*. Just saying.
05:59:17 <ehird> esco is fundamentally pointless; nobody has ever thought "gee, I wish all these slow and badly-written esolang interpreters were in the same binary"
05:59:27 <Rugxulo> macros in C++? isn't that frowned upon?
05:59:31 <pikhq> And yes, it's all pretty poor.
05:59:57 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Because people prefer typing more?
06:00:37 <pikhq> C macros are crappy metaprogramming, but it is at least metaprogramming. And C++ *badly* needs it...
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06:15:19 <oklopol> i've recently come to realize math is not as easy as cs.
06:16:55 <oklopol> one of the exercises in automata theory took me like 5 hours
06:17:07 <oklopol> i should be a fucking expert! :P
06:17:40 * Rugxulo got esco to work ... barely
06:17:50 <pikhq> Automata theory is... Both math and CS...
06:18:13 <oklopol> sure, but it's at math dep, therefore has about 40 times harder homework.
06:19:44 <oklopol> i'm not saying math is inherently harder than cs... although i suppose it is
06:19:51 <oklopol> so i guess i am saying that
06:20:48 <oklopol> also enough irc for today, the fun starts in 10 minutes ~>
06:23:00 <ehird> presumably classes.
06:25:04 * Rugxulo considered that although in his part of the world, it's a little after midnight
06:29:56 <Rugxulo> so what exactly were the problems with esco?
06:30:14 <ehird> <ehird> because it's a shitty idea, and they spammed our wiki.
06:30:16 <ehird> <ehird> esco is fundamentally pointless; nobody has ever thought "gee, I wish all these slow and badly-written esolang interpreters were in the same binary"
06:30:41 <ehird> they were also obnoxious on irc.
06:31:58 * Rugxulo notes the irony of that statement ;-)
06:32:07 * coppro tries to think of the last time he's set himself up for disappointment this much
06:32:23 <ehird> Rugxulo: I'm an asshole; there's a difference.
06:32:47 <Rugxulo> ehird, I think IRC itself just lends to colder interaction
06:33:35 <ehird> yeah, i'm not a dick irl :)
06:33:42 <ehird> that's mostly due to shyness, though.
06:35:23 <Rugxulo> BTW, esco isn't that bad an idea, but it's pretty paltry to only support say six languages (I expected lots more)
06:35:58 <ehird> why is it a good idea. why should every language be written by people who aren't experts in it, and have it all put in one binary
06:36:01 <ehird> what is the purpose
06:37:03 <ehird> not even slightly similar
06:37:06 <ehird> parrot is just a vm.
06:37:45 <Rugxulo> but they have implemented various languages for it
06:37:58 <ehird> the concepts are completely unrelated
06:40:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, you say they're all slow, but sometimes speed isn't important
06:40:42 <coppro> it executes as much as possible esoteric languages?
06:41:25 <ehird> why not just use a standalone interpreter
06:41:47 <ehird> esco's interpreters all suck their only advantage is that they're all in one binary and maintained by people who don't know the language due to attempting to be jacks of all trades
06:41:50 <coppro> because a VM has advantages
06:41:51 <ehird> plus they spammed our wiki.
06:41:57 <ehird> coppro: they don't have a vm
06:42:01 <ehird> it's all separate interpreters
06:42:32 <coppro> on an unrelated note, I should learn to use LLVM
06:43:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, not all standalone interpreters are created equal anyways
06:43:42 <Rugxulo> so I don't think esco is necessarily any worse than most
06:44:58 <Rugxulo> for instance, the wiki says BFF4LNR is the fastest interpreter
06:45:30 <Rugxulo> but that's debatable, esp. since he only used old compilers (and it got worse with Cygwin on the second test, which is suspicious)
06:46:44 <ehird> all of esco's interpreters are 5-minute affairs that standalone, would be worthless. all it is is a switch over multiple languages executing each one. this is identical to multiple binaries, but stupider, and only serves to try and hide the fact that the interpreters are bad and anyone could make one equivalent in a few minutes: these are not best of breed; they're rubbish
06:46:49 <ehird> also, they spammed our wiki; did i mention that.
06:47:34 <Rugxulo> spammed as in what? kept adding over and over and over despite resistance?
06:47:49 <Rugxulo> and standalone wastes more cluster space, don't cha know ;-)
06:48:01 <ehird> they added their interpreter to every single language article they supported, and readded them back without comment when they were removed
06:48:11 <ehird> once months after, iirc
06:48:39 <Rugxulo> some people (e.g. Wikipedia) are more against external links than others
06:48:47 <Rugxulo> the Befunge article on Wikipedia isn't exactly perfect either
06:48:54 * Rugxulo should edit that one of these days
06:49:23 <ehird> befunge isn't really notable
06:49:52 <Rugxulo> sure it is, more than HPQ+ (or whatever it's called) ;-)
06:50:09 <ehird> yeah, and this irc channel is more notable than my toilet.
06:51:18 <coppro> there's also the object-oriented variant, HQ9++
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13:59:37 <ais523> ehird will probably think I'm crazy but: I have a massively powerful desktop computer here, but I'm using it just to talk on IRC while my laptop does a fsck
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14:07:03 <fizzie> FireFly: Capable of destroying a planet in a single stroke.
14:07:18 <FireFly> I take it you don't have a program to do that?
14:07:25 <FireFly> Or else you'd have used it, I mean
14:08:01 <fizzie> I think it's in a Ubuntu repository somewhere, but I don't have a massively enough powerful desktop.
14:09:30 <ais523> FireFly: more powerful than I'm used to computers being
14:09:38 <ais523> so probably less powerful than whatever ehird has
14:10:04 <AnMaster> ais523, cat /proc/cpuinfo free -m lspci
14:10:20 <AnMaster> all of those works as non-root
14:10:35 <ais523> I was just checking the permissions on /proc first
14:10:40 <ais523> (I'm rather paranoid...)
14:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, you *can't* change proc permissions afaik
14:11:07 <AnMaster> well, unless you patch the kernel
14:11:07 <ais523> you could mount it inside a folder that didn't have the right permissions to seek into it
14:11:12 <ais523> you do need root perms to mount proc
14:11:37 <ais523> anyway, it seems to be a Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz
14:11:56 <AnMaster> ais523, you need root permissions to mount anything. Except that there is suid stuff to handle stuff like "any user may mount the cd" and such
14:11:58 <ais523> which runs at 1998MHz, according to the same entry
14:12:11 <ais523> and yes, it has 4 cores
14:12:16 <ais523> which seems to fit the name
14:12:23 <AnMaster> ais523, about running speed: dynamic cpu speed, will increase ondemand
14:12:28 <AnMaster> surely you have seen that before
14:12:38 <ais523> probably; I didn't realise that showed up in /proc/cpuinfo though
14:13:13 <ais523> as for memory, it seems to have 2002516k RAM and 4192924k swap (according to top)
14:13:24 <FireFly> "AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+", @ ~2GHz IIRC
14:13:46 <FireFly> Which is fast enough for me, for now
14:14:01 <fizzie> ais523: All in all, that's not really "massively powerful". You could maybe destroy a small moon with it, I guess.
14:14:27 <ais523> local-to-HD partitions that are mounted atm seem to have 57.5 GB total space
14:14:34 <ais523> but my home drive's on a network share somewhere
14:14:41 <ais523> with an artificially small size
14:14:49 <ais523> so disk isn't really very easy to measure
14:15:43 <fizzie> FireFly: 2G, already mentioned.
14:15:57 <FireFly> Oh, there, missed that line
14:19:41 <ais523> well, that doesn't look like exactly 2G, but close enough
14:20:00 <ais523> that number isn't even a mix of binary and decimal multipliers like 1000MiB would be
14:20:11 <fizzie> There's always some bits and pieces reserved for whatever.
14:20:15 <ais523> maybe it has integrated graphics or something stupid like that
14:20:21 <fizzie> Well, just for the record; this work-workstation is a "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz" (though running at 2 GHz), with 2 GB of memory and a 160G local disk, though with some four-five terabytes of network shares (mostly full); so ais523's box is certainly more powerful. I'd be lucky to manage to destroy a small Kuiper belt object with this.
14:21:41 <FireFly> My desktop computer has about the same specs as that
14:22:40 <ais523> this one will probably come in useful for things like placing&routing (that is, taking a schematic and trying to lay it out in physical space)
14:22:54 <ais523> that's generally done by brute force or genetic algorithms, and takes hours as a result
14:23:32 <ais523> hmm... the clock here seems wrong
14:23:34 <fizzie> We're officially supposed to farm anything that takes more than a trivial amount of computation to our grid for computation.
14:23:36 <ais523> maybe it's showing UTC?
14:23:59 <ais523> % date \ Thu Oct 1 14:23:47 BST 2009
14:24:04 <ais523> also, what's with that prompt?
14:24:16 <ais523> % echo $SHELL \ /bham/bin/tcsh
14:24:27 <fizzie> It says "BST" there, though. Maybe it's just wrong-wrong?
14:24:37 <ais523> what time is it actually?
14:24:48 <fizzie> Thu Oct 1 13:24:43 UTC 2009
14:24:52 <fizzie> Something like that, UTC.
14:25:23 <ais523> help, I've lost an hour somehow
14:25:28 <ais523> it was 2 pm here over an hour ago
14:25:37 <ais523> and now everyone's teling me it was only about 24 minutes?
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14:26:25 <fizzie> Hrrm, that recent freenode global notice makes it sound like a deliberate act.
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14:27:11 <fizzie> Ka-pow. That "very shortly" in there wasn't kidding.
14:27:29 <FireFly> [15:25:30] <christel> [>> $*] [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience!
14:27:31 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Guest19311.
14:27:50 <ais523> I wonder how they discovered the leak?
14:28:00 <ais523> anyway, I went to a lecture at 2pm
14:28:05 <ais523> it lasted an hour, then it was 3pm
14:28:09 <ais523> then I went to my office
14:28:24 <ais523> conclusion: I'm thinking too much about Feather
14:28:24 <fizzie> "-christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience!"
14:28:52 <ais523> second possibility: someone noticed my initial confusion
14:28:58 <ais523> and everyone decided to play along
14:29:04 <ais523> the people in my office could by seeing my screen
14:29:11 <ais523> and the people on IRC could be sending queries back and forth
14:29:24 <ais523> third possibility: both the clock tower and the clock in the lecture room are wrong
14:29:28 <ais523> and the lecture actually started at 1
14:29:41 <FireFly> I think you should go with #1
14:29:45 <ais523> but in a way which mislead me into thinking it started at 2
14:30:06 <ais523> (the time has been moved to 1 for next week...)
14:30:38 <fizzie> #2 is appropriately paranoid.
14:32:41 <ais523> well, Wikipedia says it's 13:30 UTC or thereabouts, and the page I checked that on hasn't been changed since August
14:32:55 <ais523> so I conclude that it is indeed about half past 2 my time
14:33:23 <ais523> ah, theory that actually makes sense
14:33:30 <ais523> I believed that the lecture was at 2
14:33:35 <ais523> I arrived in good time, over an hour
14:33:43 <ais523> but when I got there I saw that I only had about 10 minutes left
14:33:48 <ais523> the lecture was actually at 1 and I misremembered
14:34:02 <ais523> and I only looked at the clock's minute hand as I was in a hurry
14:34:04 <oerjan> ais523: no no, believing things that are wrong doesn't make sense, just ask ehird
14:34:23 <ais523> as the lecture was actually starting at the time, this confirmed my belief that it was in fact 2pm
14:35:17 <ais523> they did change the room the lecture was in, maybe they changed the time at the same time and I didn't notice
14:36:16 <oerjan> so do you usually arrive an hour in advance? maybe your subconscious new anyhow >:)
14:41:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: square root of minus garfield o_O
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14:42:54 <FireFly> Ouch, we don't want no complex garfields
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14:43:29 <ais523> not sure why I was too lazy to quit over there and used NickServ instead...
14:44:12 <oerjan> ais523: i've tried being lazy that way with irssi, doesn't work...
14:44:32 <oerjan> because irssi reconnects
14:44:47 <ais523> that's awful manners, reconnecting if you're killed or kicked
14:45:07 <ais523> kicking's kind-of pointless if people don't get the hint...
14:45:35 <oerjan> that's a nick collision though, irssi may not really know about them...
14:45:57 <ais523> if you get nick-collided while online, it means you're either using your own nick and you did that deliberately (and so don't want a reconnection)
14:46:12 <ais523> or you're using someone else's nick and you should really get the hint that they don't want you to use it
14:46:13 <oerjan> yes, but irssi has an alternative nick
14:46:39 <fizzie> Or your using your own nick and someone else has tried to steal it.
14:47:16 <ais523> they'd need to know your NickServ password to do that
14:47:21 <ais523> in which case, the correct solution isn't to log on again
14:47:22 <fizzie> In service-less networks, that is.
14:47:41 <oerjan> ais523: oh, but the issue here is that if it was a _real_ nick collision then you wouldn't be able to reconnect because the other nick would still be there...
14:47:43 <ais523> but logging on again would simply not work in that situation
14:47:53 <ais523> I'm talking about ghosting here
14:48:12 <oerjan> but since freenode's ghosting doesn't do that, irssi doesn't know what is happening
14:48:20 <ais523> I think we've concluded, that in the only situations in which reconnecting after a nick collision actually works, you don't want to do it
14:48:53 <oerjan> not quite. there is also the issue of moving across netsplits
14:49:21 <ais523> if you're moving deliberately, your nick isn't on the other side of the netsplit
14:49:30 <ais523> you'd have to maintain two connections to be on /both/ sides of the netsplit
14:49:42 <ais523> and you wouldn't want both of them to autoconnect after that or there'd be two of you
14:50:14 <fizzie> On IRCnet, earlier, the behaviour I remember when netsplit ends and a nick collision is found is to kill both sides. In which case you'd want to reconnect pretty fast to actually get your own nick back.
14:50:34 <fizzie> Nowadays it just forcibly renames both participants, I think.
14:52:08 <ais523> ok, I see the scenario you're talking about now
14:52:11 <ais523> you're on one side of a netsplit
14:52:17 <ais523> someone who wants to steal your nick joins the other side
14:52:21 <ais523> then the netsplit ends
14:52:55 <fizzie> Yes. That's how nick- and channel-stealing used to be done. (The channel stealing by joining the channel on some server where it was empty, which made you gain ops there.)
14:54:02 <fizzie> In any case, isn't the nick-collision kill is just your regular free-format "whoops, you died" error message? I'm not very sure there's some easily distinguishable and standardized "and don't come back" marker there.
14:56:03 <fizzie> Quite a lot of people do have "auto-rejoin when kicked out of a channel" on, though, and even I can't really figure out a justification for that.
14:57:56 <ais523> well, the trick is clearly to join the channel simultaneously at 1pm and 2pm
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16:55:18 <ehird> good morning america
16:55:28 <ehird> good morning october
16:56:42 <ehird> 05:59:37 <ais523> ehird will probably think I'm crazy but: I have a massively powerful desktop computer here, but I'm using it just to talk on IRC while my laptop does a fsck
16:56:48 <puzzlet_> mid-autumn season here in korea
16:56:51 <ehird> yes, funnily enough most people with good computers don't always max it out :)
16:56:54 <ehird> 06:11:37 <ais523> anyway, it seems to be a Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz
16:57:07 <ehird> more powerful than I have; I have a two-core instead of 4 and it's only 2.16GHz
16:57:13 <puzzlet_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Autumn_Festival
16:57:16 <ehird> also, probably an earlier generation; this is from the first batch of Core 2s
16:57:22 <ais523> it manages to feel like a corporate computer though
16:57:28 <ais523> and therefore unperformant no matter how powerful it is
16:57:31 <ehird> probably because you can't mess with it?
16:57:35 <ais523> I know it takes several minutes to boot into either Win7 or CentOS
16:57:49 <ehird> yes, that's very wrong
16:58:26 <ehird> ais523: oh, it doesn't even have 2GiB of RAM?
16:58:30 <ehird> well, let's say 2GiB :P
16:58:39 <ais523> somewhere between 2GB and 2GiB
16:58:46 <ehird> ais523: 2GiB is ridiculously little for a quad-core; I have 2.5GiB on this dual-core and it's sometimes limiting
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16:59:01 <ehird> 4GiB would be the minimum I'd put in a quad-core...
16:59:04 <ais523> I think the delay on booting is due to network stuff, though
16:59:17 <ehird> and whatever they did to it...
16:59:40 <ehird> 06:20:15 <ais523> maybe it has integrated graphics or something stupid like that
16:59:45 <ehird> that's not really stupid
16:59:56 <ehird> i thought you liked using the minimum spec computers you can?
17:00:02 <ehird> if you're not doing graphics work or gaming, ...
17:00:06 <ais523> it is in a computer science department, because there's a nonzero chance the people here will want to do weird things with the GPU
17:00:22 <ehird> however, the intel drivers for linux are very stable, albeit very slow at the moment
17:00:25 <ehird> and open source to boot
17:00:34 <ehird> so that's probably a plus for you
17:01:00 <nooga> but they get slower and slower
17:01:05 <ehird> uh, I've not heard of that
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17:01:20 <nooga> this whole compiz used to work normally
17:01:28 <ehird> also, once the kernel switches to the new graphics stack they should be quite fast
17:01:29 <ehird> 06:22:40 <ais523> this one will probably come in useful for things like placing&routing (that is, taking a schematic and trying to lay it out in physical space)
17:01:30 <nooga> at the moment it's a slideshow
17:01:32 <ehird> not with 2GiB of ram!
17:01:36 <ehird> nooga: compiz is a piece of shit
17:02:13 <ehird> 99% annoying flash for the sake of it, mostly ripped off from other OSs, and very very very unstable and slow
17:02:33 <nooga> but there are contraptions that fake OSX goodies
17:02:39 <ehird> I just turned on compositing in metacity; the window shadows sooth my soul a bit, I guess.
17:02:43 <nooga> like expo or that window magic
17:02:48 <ehird> i'd call them more baddies :)
17:03:04 <ehird> honestly, I still think the taskbar is the best wnidow switcher yet invented
17:03:16 <nooga> using taskbar is pain for me ;[
17:03:31 <nooga> i got used to this fast switching
17:03:35 <ehird> expose isn't much better if you're browsing mostly text web pages
17:03:45 <ehird> "oh, I want this nondescript wall of text."
17:05:03 <ehird> 06:23:59 <ais523> % date \ Thu Oct 1 14:23:47 BST 2009
17:05:03 <ehird> 06:24:04 <ais523> also, what's with that prompt?
17:05:10 <ehird> it could be zsh! it could be zsh!
17:05:11 <ehird> 06:24:16 <ais523> % echo $SHELL \ /bham/bin/tcsh
17:05:11 <ehird> 06:24:17 <ais523> AARGH
17:05:13 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:05:21 <ais523> bash is on there, just not default
17:05:30 <ais523> also, weird place for binaries
17:05:40 <ehird> 06:25:23 <ais523> help, I've lost an hour somehow
17:05:40 <ehird> 06:25:28 <ais523> it was 2 pm here over an hour ago
17:05:49 <ehird> make your computer not auto-DST
17:05:55 <ehird> and I'll remind you about it the next time it gives extra hours
17:05:59 <ais523> read on, and you'll see what happened
17:05:59 <ehird> and you'll get that extra hour back
17:06:04 <ehird> ais523: nono, I'm trying to remedy the lost hour
17:06:25 <ais523> actually, I meant that I'd gained an hour
17:07:13 <ehird> "Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software"
17:07:17 <nooga> they release dumbuntu 9.10 final beta today :F
17:07:17 <ehird> in other news, freenode are incompetent
17:07:45 <ehird> nooga: dumbmostusableoperatingsystemenvironmentontheplanetcurrentlyexistinganditsalsoalmostentirelyfoss 9.10 beta
17:07:53 <ehird> i can make portmanteaus too
17:08:50 <ehird> there are different genders of iphone?
17:09:44 <ehird> distros freezing every package before release? moar like FOSSil amirite
17:11:24 <nooga> tbh i don't give a shit if something is foss or not
17:11:37 <nooga> i like if something works :D
17:12:10 <ais523> I don't use FOSS as the be-all and end-all of things, but I consider being open source to be considerably enhanced functionality as I really enjoy messing around with code
17:12:17 <coppro> ehird: found the sound problem. Suspend issues
17:12:20 <ehird> in FOSS, there are more members of the angry mob, and apple can't pull another one of its fucking "LET'S MAKE THINGS LESS CONSISTENT!!!" moves because everyone else says "fuck. no."
17:12:40 <ais523> and it's very rare to find a licence that is both open source, and legally lets me make and share changes, but yet is non-free
17:12:56 <ais523> and code under such a licence probably wouldn't do very well anyway
17:13:13 <ehird> I'd prefer an all-BSD-or-more-lenient-license system, but most of the useful FOSS is GPL'd :P
17:13:34 <ehird> ...and the BSDs still use a bunch of GPL code, plus I can't deal with bullshit like the ports system
17:13:38 <coppro> I'd like a compromise, but I know such a thing isn't legally feasible
17:13:47 <nooga> it's like building a higher idea aroud a hammer or shovel
17:13:50 * coppro knows software like that - the actual software is free, but the datasets are not
17:14:08 <ehird> what on earth is the point of a compromise?
17:14:18 <ehird> foss works fine on its own without any restricted bullshit
17:14:39 <coppro> like, GPL except it doesn't lock you in to the GPL but only to licenses with the same general idea
17:14:57 <ehird> all the viral licenses without many differences are much the same
17:15:22 <nooga> make everything a beerware
17:15:29 <ais523> some sort of weak copyleft licence would be weird and interesting
17:15:33 <ais523> I'm not sure if it would be possible
17:15:45 <ais523> well, I mean stronger than weak copyleft
17:15:49 <ais523> but weaker than strong copyleft
17:15:51 <ehird> "beerware: because I want to give you tools that help you make this program worse"
17:16:03 <coppro> I don't think it would be possible
17:16:18 <ehird> it wouldn't be gpl-compatible
17:16:23 <ehird> the gpl doesn't have such a twisted-viral clause
17:16:35 <coppro> but I find the GPL and similar license to be stronger than I like, and BSD-likes to be weaker than I like
17:16:36 <ehird> all the compatible licenses would be pretty much rewordings
17:16:43 <ehird> what's wrong with BSD
17:17:03 <ais523> ehird: you can make arbitrary licences, even commercial ones, GPL-compatible by adding a clause allowing derivative works to be licenced under the GPL
17:17:08 <coppro> it's too weak; I do not want to be giving my code away free to Apple
17:17:32 <ehird> coppro: that's only because you're an idiot with some sort of irrational hate of apple because steve jobs killed your dog or something
17:17:35 <coppro> at the very least, I prefer a license with an attribution clause
17:17:42 <ehird> uh, BSD has an attribution clause
17:17:49 <ehird> have you actually........ read it
17:18:25 <coppro> but it's not strong enough for me
17:18:36 <ais523> you get commercial software with attributions in the credits because there's BSD stuff in it
17:19:01 <ehird> well, knowing the motivations for such a license I'll avoid using or modifying any of your code, I guess
17:19:09 <ehird> at least most people using the GPL just want to "spread the love"
17:19:12 <ehird> nooga: identical to BSD2
17:19:18 <ehird> which is identical to BSD3 minus a redundant clause
17:20:24 <ehird> 06:44:47 <ais523> that's awful manners, reconnecting if you're killed or kicked
17:20:25 <ehird> 06:45:07 <ais523> kicking's kind-of pointless if people don't get the hint...
17:20:26 <ehird> kicking IS pointlses
17:20:33 <ehird> you could just say "stop that"
17:20:40 <ehird> it has as much effect and is less stupi
17:20:43 <coppro> but people listen to kicks
17:20:44 <ais523> given that I don't rejoin if I'm kicked
17:20:52 <ehird> <ehird> you could just say "stop that"
17:20:54 <ais523> unless it was obviously done as a joke
17:20:54 <ehird> <ehird> it has as much effect and is less stupi
17:21:18 <ehird> presumably, you're socially functioning enough to be able to be told whatever a kick tells you as words
17:21:23 <ehird> kicks are only useful in a kickban
17:22:00 <ais523> I've seen people kick idlers to stop them idling
17:22:02 <coppro> this ranks among the top most stupidest things I've ever heard ehird utter
17:22:14 <ais523> well, to stop them getting the things said in there for their privlogs
17:22:16 <ehird> i'm so amazingly offended coppro
17:22:17 <ais523> which strikes me as ridiculous
17:22:25 <ehird> i care deeply about what you think about me
17:22:31 <ehird> or, less sarcastically, stfu
17:22:37 <ais523> I suppose, the difference is a person listens to a statement, and their client to kicks
17:22:44 <ais523> so a kick is basically CTCP STOPTHAT
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18:25:44 <ehird> someone should make a keyboard that looks like the xc spectrum
18:29:23 <fizzie> You could buy a Speccy from eBay, and then it's just a matter of a bit of electronics to get it act as a keyboard.
18:29:55 <ehird> it only has four non-alphanumeric keys.
18:30:08 <ehird> enter, "caps shift" (I assume capslock), symbol shift and break space.
18:30:31 <ehird> you need space and enter, you need shift, so you only have one modifier key: caps shift (which is admittedly in a good position; a big key right to the left of Z)
18:30:47 <ehird> also, the space is at the far-right of the bottom row, which is strange. and the shift just before that, and it's only as big as aletter
18:30:52 <ehird> so, the actual layout, not so much
18:31:08 <ehird> also, somethiing not rubber. but it's so cute!
18:31:29 <fizzie> You can replace the caps-shift key with something pressure-sensitive, and use that for all the conventional modifier keys, depending on how hard you press on it.
18:31:31 <ehird> http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/Spectrum/zxspectrum_48k.jpg, http://www.playretro.co.uk/hardware/sinclair_zx_spectrum.jpg
18:31:39 <ehird> it looks just like those tiny apple keyboards
18:31:45 <ehird> and you could fit batteries in the top part
18:32:04 <ehird> http://www.gadgaard.org/gadget_past/sinclair_zx-spectrum_hr_1s.jpg it's also super-thin
18:32:14 <fizzie> I'd say something disparaging about the "space in the corner" thing, but the three-line N900 keyboard is probably almost worse.
18:32:18 <ehird> in fact it just looks like apple made a netbook. except more colourful
18:32:31 <ehird> and, uh, with a wireless screen I guess
18:32:59 <ehird> fizzie: you have an n900?
18:33:21 <fizzie> No, I've just been looking at the reviews. :p
18:33:25 <fizzie> And the rainbow colors aren't that far from the rainbow Apple logo.
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18:33:44 <ehird> yes, that's what i was thinking
18:33:46 <fizzie> And I played with one a bit in the Nokia "flagship store" in Helsinki.
18:34:01 <ehird> anyway, it's oh so tiny.
18:34:10 <ehird> actually, you know what?
18:34:17 <ehird> I should buy a speccy and make it into a laptop
18:34:59 <ehird> make a black bottom box thing with the connectors and a converter to use an LCD, stick it to the bottom of the spectrum, add an on/off switch to it and connect it to a display with minimal frame (painted black if necessary)
18:35:18 <ehird> mod the speccy case to have hinge ability, if needed modify the screen to do the same
18:35:32 <fizzie> It is http://www.product-reviews.net/tag/zx-spectrum-48k/
18:36:02 <ehird> fuck you, you destroy my dreams :(
18:36:07 <ehird> why can't you leave me in peace :(
18:36:14 <ehird> Anyway, it looks ugly.
18:36:16 <ehird> Not sleek in the slightest.
18:36:23 <ehird> built using the Spectrum as a case and keyboard, then the Libretto for innards and the screen. The laptop runs Linux, has a 2-hour battery life and there is plans to emulate some ZX Spectrum games soon.
18:36:29 <ehird> fizzie: NOT A SPECTRUM >:|
18:36:44 <ehird> They just ripped open the ZX and put the laptop inside, plus the keyboard stuff.
18:36:57 <ehird> Besides, that screen looks suspiciously widescreen, so it wouldn't even be suitable for ZXy stuff. :P
18:37:01 <fizzie> I was just looking for the "zx spectrum" image search results, actually, not *only* trying to destroy your dreams.
18:37:24 * ehird looks up the dimensions of the speccy
18:37:26 <Deewiant> My first computer was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZX_Spectrum%2B.jpg
18:37:37 <ehird> that keyboard looks even worse than the rubber!
18:37:45 <ehird> well, depending on what kind of keys they are
18:37:57 <ehird> hmm, if they're not rubber it's probably better
18:38:00 <ehird> and might be better anyway, since they're bigger
18:38:11 <Deewiant> "injection-moulded keyboard" sez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Spectrum
18:38:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's not really so cute, though.
18:38:39 <Deewiant> The feel of the keys is quite unlike any other keyboard I've ever tried
18:38:47 <ehird> 's it ... sort of like
18:38:55 <ehird> But indeed, not cute.
18:39:35 <ehird> SIZE / WEIGHT 23 x 14,4 x 3 cm / 550g
18:39:40 <ehird> 550g; that's nice and light.
18:40:23 <fizzie> There's another "just keep the case, stick a computer inside" mod at http://programbytes48k.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/un-zx-spectrum-convertido-en-un-mini-pc-con-linux/ but at least that lets you do some eyeball size-comparisons between the speccy and "normal" hardware.
18:40:29 <Deewiant> IIRC they feel kinda mushy but still fairly resistant
18:40:45 <ehird> Anyway, 23 wide and 14.4 high. Too lazy to work out the aspect ratio of the 256x192 screen (did it even have square pixels?) but I'm sure there's a screen with appropriate specs.
18:40:59 <Deewiant> Can't really come up with anything to compare to :-/
18:41:27 <fizzie> 256:192 is the traditional 4:3, though I have no clue about Spectrum's pixel shape.
18:41:43 <ehird> Game Platforms: Sinclair ZX Spectrum
18:41:43 <ehird> The Sinclair ZX Spectrum was introduced in the early 80s. ... like the Apple ][ or the BBC had more pixels), and most of all, it had square pixels! ...
18:42:00 <lament> the pixels were shaped like this: ✡
18:42:03 <ehird> The issue is finding a display that's a multiple of 256x192
18:42:17 <ehird> Oh, 1024x768 works
18:42:26 <ehird> Just make the pixels into 4x4 squares
18:42:32 <ehird> So that could be crisp.
18:42:50 <ehird> 512x384 is x2; isn't that the Macintosh's resolution?
18:43:05 <fizzie> ehird: Without extensive messing-around, it's going to be horribly blurry anyway, since the display output of the spectrum is through a RF modulator, to generate a TV signal.
18:43:27 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, but the blurriness is what it'd look like on a CRT, no?
18:43:31 <ehird> At least a reasonable approximation.
18:43:48 <fizzie> I guess, but I'm not sure you're going to have to worry so much about getting the native display resolution "correct".
18:44:02 <ehird> Just saying that 1024x768 is a particular good sizer.
18:44:47 <ehird> The screen size would be for 4:3 23cm wide would be 23cm wide, 17.25cm high, right?
18:44:56 <ehird> Someone work out the diagonal. :P
18:45:36 <ehird> (Hmm; the speccy is 14.4cm deep, so you'd have 2.85cm you could stick on to store stuff.)
18:45:42 <Deewiant> Don't we have bots here that can calculate that?
18:45:45 <fizzie> 11.3" diagonal, about.
18:45:50 <ehird> (Drive, batteries, etc.)
18:46:09 <ehird> fizzie: That's a nice enough diagonal size.
18:46:29 <fizzie> sqrt(23^2+17.25^2)/2.54
18:46:29 <fizzie> 11.31889763779527559055
18:46:29 <ehird> Hmm, I wonder if you can get homebrew drives; it plugged into a tape recorder thing.
18:46:35 <ehird> I know they have them for the C64.
18:46:44 <ehird> Would use a USB pendrive or that sort of internals; nice and small.
18:46:48 <nooga> prove that x*x >= 0 where x<-R
18:47:05 <ehird> You could get quite a good battery life out of this; it can't use so much power.
18:47:28 <ehird> And all you need is the PSU, batteries, a drive and a TV->LCD converter in the extra depth part that the screen plugs into.
18:48:33 <fizzie> If you feel like writing the software yourself, you could connect the drive to the expansion bus.
18:48:49 <ehird> Surely you could emulate a tape drive?
18:48:52 <ehird> It's just audio, after all.
18:49:08 <fizzie> There's software to generate the necessary sounds, yes.
18:49:38 <ehird> And digitalise the sounds and write to disk, presumably; then you wouldn't need the expansion bus, just whatever ports you plugged the tape into.
18:50:33 <ehird> Step 1. Go into oh-so-hip coffee shop. Step 2. Start up your Speccytop. Step 3. Play a game. Step 4. Program some trivial BASIC. (For steps 3 and 4, make sure people have a chance of seeing you.) Step 5. Run a program that produces a few beeps, and draws a huge "BATTERY LOW" on the screen. Step 6. Plug it in. (Make sure you sat down near a power outlet when entering.) Step 7. More games. Step 8. Unplug it, walk out.
18:50:44 <ehird> (Step 9 is "post it on YouTube".)
18:50:45 <Warrigal> If x > 0, then x*x > x*0, so x*x > 0. If x = 0, then x*x >= 0. If x < 0, then (-x) > 0, so (-x)*(-x) > 0, so x*x > 0.
18:51:44 <nooga> what axioms did you use?
18:53:25 <fizzie> ehird: Of course since it's 2009 and all, you could use a nice 13" 1024x768 touchscreen as the display, and make the touch information available through the expansion bus (it's not like it makes sense to leave it completely unused, after all).
18:53:46 <ehird> But then you can't see the cute dinky ZX.
18:54:09 <ehird> Besides, it looks less retro. Also, even rubber keys are more tactile than touchscreens. :P
18:54:28 <ehird> fizzie: Besides, 1024x768? But then we'd have to have black borders around it to fit the keyboard below.
18:54:37 <fizzie> Oh, the touch could just be used by some few custom programs that benefit from it.
18:54:43 <ehird> (Are there even 4:3 touchscreens that big?)
18:54:48 <ehird> fizzie: Ah. Why 13" then?
18:55:06 <fizzie> Oh, 11" I mean. Whoops.
18:55:07 <ehird> (I'm not sure we'll get a ZX to browse the web or anything; this isn't the Contiki-lovin' C64.)
18:56:33 <ehird> Although that would be nice.
18:56:49 <ehird> fizzie: That expansion bus - it could be plugged into a modem, yah?
18:56:57 <ehird> I'm sure IRC, at least, is in the Speccy's abilities...
18:57:12 <ehird> (Modem being a 3G stick thing, naturally.)
18:57:28 <ehird> (With necessary converter.)
18:57:32 <fizzie> Sure, one of the actual commercial blobs sold to plug in there has a RS232 serial port.
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18:58:10 <ehird> Sweet; I'm sure there's a 3G-stick-to-Ethernet thing, so that'd be uber-trivial.
18:58:16 <ehird> Although the software would be a bit of a bitch.
18:58:26 <ehird> Probably best to use a teeny tiny microcontroller to do it.
19:12:22 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/michael_vick_fails_to_inspire_team?utm_source=a-section x_x
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19:46:59 <Ilari> Plug modem into ZX, then connect the phone line (somehow) to PC sound input/output. Then run software on PC which acts like a modem and forwards data to/from TUN device... Then configure PC to route packets to TUN device. :->
19:48:11 <Ilari> The modulation and demodulation of modem signaling at the rates those modems have probably won't be heavy task...
19:48:23 <ehird> Yees, well, I think not depending on a computer is a good task.
19:48:31 <ehird> Not task, feature.
19:49:44 <Ilari> If you want to, emulate PPP on the PC and let to give modem dial command on ZX. Then it just depends on PPP.
19:50:11 <ehird> Well, I gather it'll be an ethernet cable going into the bus.
19:50:20 <ehird> And the "modem" will be a 3G mobile internet USB stick; not really very modem-y.
19:51:00 <Ilari> How you plan to connect USB device to ZX? Some microcontroller?
19:51:25 <Ilari> ehird: And additionally, since 3G stick is USB gadget, you need USB host controller.
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19:52:08 <ehird> Ilari: There apparently was sold an RS232<->ZX expansion bus thingy, so it should be a simple matter of using a microcontroller to connect the 3G stick and then get it talking Ethernet.
19:52:36 <ehird> Then it goes into the ZX, which will run the slowest networking stack ever.
19:53:02 <Ilari> AFAIK, most of the USB microcontroller stuff is USB gadget side, not USB host controllers.
19:53:30 <ehird> Most FPGA stuff has USB ports; I assume, then, that there are a bunch of tiny microcontroller boards with USB ports.
19:53:35 <ehird> See, for example: gumstix, BeagleBoard.
19:54:07 <ehird> BeagleBoard is 3x3" is too big; ais523 says the gumstix are a bit fragile, i.e. not too sturdily built, but they're really tiny (smaller than a pack of gum) so they'd fit nicely.
19:54:34 <Ilari> One question is: Are those USB ports host ports or gadget ports?
19:54:38 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Gumstix_oconnor.JPG; the expansion board to the right has a USB port, I think.
19:54:53 <ehird> Ilari: Really have no clue. That right-side one looks complicated enough to be the more powerful of those, though.
19:55:50 <fizzie> Those programmable thingsies do tend to support host mode, since it's really pretty much the point that you can plug USB devices into them.
19:56:28 <ehird> Ah, is the gadget mode just to plug the microcontroller into something and have it act as a USB device?
19:57:10 <fizzie> Incidentally, Nokia's previous tablets (N810 and whatever they were) also support host mode (so you can plug in, say, a keyboard) but the N900 at least officially doesn't. :/
19:57:42 <ehird> Hmm, a lot of Spectrum games use a joystick, don't they?
19:58:42 <fizzie> I don't really know about 3G modem stick programming; they implement the USB "CDC" class, but I think they usually speak PPP over whatever is there to do the actual IP traffic.
19:59:39 <fizzie> Where do you have Ethernet in all this?
20:00:29 <ehird> Oh, crap, I thought RS232 was that standard for Ethernet.
20:00:45 <ehird> RJ45 in fact, or rather 8P8C.
20:01:03 <ehird> fizzie: Well, it's easy enough to do PPPoSerial, wouldn't it be?
20:01:43 <fizzie> Well, yes. You just have to convert from serial to the USB serial stuff. (Or directly from whatever you want to do over the extension bus into USB serial transfers.)
20:02:35 <fizzie> Strange, this 3G stick I have shows up as two serial ports.
20:02:46 <fizzie> option 1-5:1.0: GSM modem (1-port) converter detected
20:02:46 <fizzie> usb 1-5: GSM modem (1-port) converter now attached to ttyUSB0
20:02:46 <fizzie> option 1-5:1.1: GSM modem (1-port) converter detected
20:02:46 <fizzie> usb 1-5: GSM modem (1-port) converter now attached to ttyUSB1
20:04:58 <ehird> So, now taking bets as to what sort of battery life it'll get.
20:05:30 <ehird> After all, it's underpowered, but we didn't really have as much extremely-low-power-usage tech then.
20:06:44 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:08:16 <fizzie> Given that you need to do something for the "disk drive" too, you might pick one of those SoC-style chips; you could connect a regular USB-interfaced flash drive and the USB 3G stick into the USB interface on it, and have the CPU part do both the spectrum tape drive emulation (those things generally have the necessary A/D and D/A converters to do audio) as well as whatever custom protocol you need over the extension bus (just wire some GPIO pins to it).
20:08:30 <ehird> Ha, I was about to say something about the disk.
20:09:01 <ehird> Also, no protocol required, I think; just do something like "read (large number)-fileno".
20:09:13 <ehird> And then "read (large number)" is a program that prints out filename<->number mappings or something.
20:09:26 <ehird> Admittedly it might be more convenient to do it over the bus.
20:10:14 <ehird> fizzie: it's nothing more complex than converting bits to audio and vice versa, isn't it
20:10:38 <fizzie> If you store the spectrum tape images in a suitably "raw" format, I guess it's pretty simple.
20:11:05 <ehird> The ZX *did* have a joystick, right?
20:11:15 <ehird> That could be useful for gopher-browsing (I'm sure it can handle *that*)
20:11:34 <ehird> Or, well, not really, considering the list-of-links format. Still.
20:11:54 <fizzie> I'm not very familiar with the device, but the WP page mentions a joystick interface as one of the things you could plug in the extension bus.
20:12:28 <fizzie> I think the connectors on that thing are limited to audio-in/audio-out (for the tape), the TV-compatible video out, and then the extension bus for everything else.
20:12:43 <ehird> I'm sure some games used a joystick.
20:12:52 <ehird> Anyway, could do that as a trackball type thing.
20:12:55 <fizzie> "The ZX Interface 1 add-on module included 8 KB of ROM, an RS-232 serial port, a proprietary LAN interface (called ZX Net), and an interface for the connection of up to eight ZX Microdrives – somewhat unreliable but speedy tape-loop cartridge storage devices released in July 1983."
20:13:14 <fizzie> "ZX Net" sounds so very popular.
20:13:15 <ehird> wrt the disk drive, it'd clearly be far more retro if we used real tapes.
20:13:48 <fizzie> Well, you can carry an old WalkMan around to go with your Port-a-Spectrum.
20:14:07 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:14:34 <ehird> we're discussing making the ZX Spectrum into a laptop.
20:14:42 <ehird> fizzie: oh, with the tape drive included, of course
20:15:19 <fizzie> Oh, I don't know; in one sense it would be somehow inherently funny to have a tied-to-it-with-a-cable add-on like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SONY_WM-D6C.jpg
20:15:21 <ehird> in the bit near the screen where the extra stuff is, a horizontal (i.e. not sticking up) tape slot, and some buttons depthwards (i.e., going further to the screen, to save space)
20:15:27 <fizzie> It even says "professional" there.
20:15:38 <impomatic> Hmmm... didn't someone make a speccy laptop in the 90's?
20:16:07 <ehird> Dunno. Two people have ripped out the innards and put a PC in there; one person did it to a laptop to have a screen and such.
20:16:31 <ehird> But I don't know of any actual Spectrum laptops. Besides, we're adding 3G internet and a USB disk-based tape drive to this thing.
20:16:53 <ehird> Plus an 11" 1024x768 screen! Admittedly only displaying 256x192.
20:17:10 <fizzie> There is an approximate metric buttload of spectrum clones, it does not sound completely unlikely that someone has made a portable model too.
20:17:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:17:46 <ehird> It only counts if it retains the same general form factor of the original speccy, imo. :P
20:17:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:18:38 <impomatic> I have a Sam Coupe, and a Speccy +3
20:19:08 <Sgeo_> Why can't I just connect my computer directly to the cable modem?
20:19:21 <fizzie> The +3 makes it sound like a roguelike/RPG weapon.
20:19:36 <ehird> Sgeo_: Because then you'd have to do routing in software.
20:19:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, I don't give two **** about the other computers on the network
20:20:08 <ehird> that's not what routing is
20:20:32 <ehird> I don't understand why all the speccies after the first were so ugly.
20:20:50 <ehird> I mean, http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/Spectrum/zxspectrum_48k.jpg vs http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/photos/sinclair_zx-spectrum-p3_1.jpg
20:21:15 <fizzie> Er, generally the cable modems I've seen have supported a reasonably "direct" USB connection. (Though I don't know whether they pretend to be a standard USB Ethernet device, or just include some custom drivers.)
20:22:04 <ehird> Cable modems generally plug into routers. :P
20:22:24 <ehird> I don't actually have cable.
20:23:03 <impomatic> I'd prefer a Jupiter Ace laptop. :-)
20:23:27 <impomatic> The spectrum had 3" or 3.5" disk drives. It's be handy to include those on the portable.
20:23:28 <fizzie> The modems rented by the local cable TV company here -- well, some models, at least -- do support connecting over USB; not sure how widespread that is. (And it's also really buggy; they do recommend doing it over Ethernet if the computer in question has a network interface.)
20:24:39 <ehird> impomatic: But it already has a wonderful USB-stick-based solid state drive thingy!
20:24:50 <ehird> You could even attempt to play a song you put on it. :P
20:24:54 <ehird> (It'll emulate the tape drive.)
20:25:15 <ehird> Well, I'm not sure the speccy actually has audio.
20:25:34 <ehird> You could decode the wav and record it to the tape as audio; that basically counts as playing.
20:25:40 <ehird> Of course it'd just be saved as garbage.
20:26:32 <ehird> I guess the beeper will have to be neutered and redirected to the microcontroller so it can have a headphone slot.
20:26:41 <ehird> Falling back to the beeper, of course.
20:26:45 <ehird> Or if that's too hard, a mini speaker.
20:30:22 <ehird> Someone should port Maniac Mansion to the speccy. :P
20:31:40 <ehird> http://twitter.com/MSWindows Oh gawd.
20:33:40 <ehird> Anyway, I'm pretty sure the speccy has enough power to talk PPP over serial, get TCP/IP working, get DNS working, connect to Freenode and chat on IRC.
20:35:17 <fizzie> Hmph, someone's broken the udev on my desktop. It has / on /dev/md0, and /dev/md0 gets auto-assembled just fine, but udev doesn't feel like making the /dev/disk/by-uuid/xxx link, so since the grub config uses (by default) the "root=UUID=xxx" form, it doesn't find the root fs to mount.
20:36:03 <ehird> (Anyone agree that the speccy could do that?
20:37:40 <fizzie> Sure, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Though I wouldn't expect too high data transfer rates.
20:37:59 * Sgeo_ goes to watch The Wall
20:38:04 <impomatic> There's a 25MHz Z80 upgrade available for the Speccy, and a 4MB memory board
20:38:53 <ehird> fizzie: IRC would work fine at 1KiB/s.
20:38:58 <ehird> That's two full-length IRC lines.
20:39:14 <ehird> Heck, even 512B/s; full-length lines aren't so common.
20:39:24 <ehird> But not less, for a semi-popular channel.
20:39:44 <ehird> Because of the screen res it'd be best for places like here, and would work fine with ~300B/s.
20:39:50 <impomatic> If you want a portable spectrum, you could just use ZXDS for the Nintendo DS. :-)
20:39:55 <ehird> Who needs more than 48KiB of RAM?
20:40:12 <ehird> Also, the actual Speccy is so cute. And the DS is so not retro. :P Also, rael keyboard.
20:41:20 <ehird> The C64 with 64KiB can run a full graphical multitasking OS with a web browser (Contiki), and it only has a 1.02MHz 6510 (or 0.985MHz in PAL regions), so I'm sure a Z80 at 3.5MHz with 48KiB of RAM can handle it.
20:47:22 <ehird> The C64 has rather more graphical prowess, though.
20:48:22 <fizzie> Less portable form-factor, since I guess you'd want to have exactly the original, iconic shape.
20:48:53 <ehird> Oh, there's plenty of C64 laptops.
20:49:00 <ehird> The ZX is far cuter.
20:49:09 <fizzie> Yes, it's more nettop-like.
20:49:10 <ehird> And, well, more of an underdog.
20:49:58 <ehird> fizzie: don't you mean netbook?
20:50:09 <ehird> Nettop is like that silly Linutop thing.
20:50:20 <fizzie> I don't even know the modern lingo.
20:50:35 <fizzie> I guess I have known that distinction.
20:50:50 <ehird> Well, it'll certainly be a nettop, but I doubt that includes HTML over HTTP.
20:50:54 <ehird> Well, HTTP is fine; HTML less so.
20:51:01 <ehird> Still, it can probably render simple stuff.
20:51:18 <ehird> Read http://robotwisdom.com/ on your ZX Spectrum today!
20:52:17 <ehird> Huh, robot wisdom is dead?
20:52:21 <ehird> last updated 2006.
20:52:45 <fizzie> You could make a portable Altair 8800, but that'd just be strange. (I guess in that particular case you'd just run an emulator on a DS or something.)
20:52:58 <ehird> Flippin' switches 'n shit.
20:53:26 <fizzie> I'm sure it'd attract some attention in a cafe.
20:53:56 <ehird> "Is that a bomb? POLICE! POLICE! HE'S GOT A BOMB! AAAAAAAA!"
20:54:08 <ehird> "No, no, it's an Altair-" "-an Altair bomb, riiight. *taze*"
20:54:16 <ehird> Next day it's on reddit!
20:54:23 <impomatic> There's an Esoteric language for the DS :-) Someone implemented OISC
20:55:29 <ehird> Ah - "# Robot Wisdom Weblog, since Oct06 continued as part of the Robot Wisdom auxiliary, since Aug09 continued as part of one-bit RWx-auxiliary blog"
20:55:51 <ehird> The "one-bit" thing seems to be a shared google reader items that looks like a link blog.
20:55:53 <ehird> http://www.google.com/reader/shared/14569541748422553908
20:56:30 <ehird> That's rather less simple HTML-wise.
20:58:53 <ehird> http://c64vsspectrum.com/ Can't we all just get along?
20:59:30 <ehird> Totally no fair, he just compares them to see which has better games. NO. FAIR.
20:59:56 <ehird> He doesn't even like Manic Miner: http://c64vsspectrum.com/M.html
21:08:29 <pikhq> ehird: I'm pretty sure that Contiki's web browser is about on par with Lynx. So, yeah, rather basic. :)
21:09:22 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Contiki-avr.png
21:09:41 <pikhq> (I am at least imagining that you'd be basically running apps about on par with Contiki's on this, if you don't bother porting the whole of Contiki)
21:09:46 <ehird> (That screenshot there, apart frmo the high resolution, can totally be reproduced with a speccy, I'm sure.)
21:09:50 <ehird> Well, apart from "processes".
21:10:01 <ehird> pikhq: Sure, but Contiki doesn't exactly do much.
21:10:15 <ehird> The display is kinda the bottleneck.
21:10:17 <pikhq> Yeah. It's one of the simplest OSes I know of.
21:10:20 <ehird> There's not much you can fit.
21:10:42 <ehird> Still, if you draw your own text you should be able to fit a few lines of IRC.
21:10:57 <pikhq> The GUI is an optional feature of Contiki.
21:11:28 <ehird> But I don't think you can have the browser without the GUI.
21:13:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:19:28 <ehird> I just had a fun idea!
21:19:37 <ehird> Does Windows 95 work in VirtualBox? Let's find out! To the piratescope!
21:22:18 <fizzie> I think I have a win98 VirtualBox box somewhere; don't think I've tried plain '95.
21:22:25 <ehird> Should I install via floppy or CD?
21:22:31 <ehird> CD is less annoying, but floppy is more lollerific.
21:22:41 <Azstal> I've tested it in Virtual PC, I don't know about VirtualBox
21:23:06 <Azstal> It's fun complaining to people that their sites are broken in IE 3.0
21:23:44 <ehird> Hey, VirtualBox's UI is appealing on Linux.
21:23:57 <ehird> My day just keeps getting better and better.
21:24:50 <pikhq> VirtualBox uses Qt 4. And it doesn't suck horribly.
21:24:55 <pikhq> Nice property, that.
21:25:07 * pikhq vomits at VMware Server for a bit
21:25:17 <ehird> Yeah; Qt 4's font rendering hints too much vs GTK here, but otherwise it looks identical.
21:25:22 <ehird> QGtkStyle isn't horrific, then.
21:25:44 <ehird> How many megs do you think I should use?
21:26:03 <ehird> I'd give it a whole two gigs, but really now.
21:26:49 <oerjan> after all, that's enough for everyone.
21:27:00 <pikhq> 95? Give it 64 MB and watch it never, ever swap.
21:27:10 <ehird> That's what VirtualBox recommended, but that's so... unrealistic...
21:27:13 <pikhq> (unless you use loadlin on it)
21:27:35 <pikhq> Decent amount of 95 machines had 64 MB of RAM.
21:27:46 <ehird> Would it not do the same with 32?
21:28:03 <pikhq> A few things would actually use the extra RAM.
21:28:09 <ehird> Eh, 64 it is. It's just that the minimum was 4MiB, and yeah, that's really sub-optimal, but...
21:28:26 <ehird> Then again, this is going to run with 2.16GHz of Core 2 power; it's not gonna be realistic.
21:28:33 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
21:28:39 <ehird> VMs are such fun; every OS you can imagine in a few clix.
21:28:45 <ehird> Well. VMs + piracy.
21:29:10 <ehird> A 2GB HD should do nicely, methinks?
21:29:41 <ehird> And I'll use a CD to avoid changing all the damn floppies.
21:29:46 <pikhq> My old 95 machine had 8 GB, but it was quite silly. And I don't think that ever got used.
21:30:09 <ehird> * Win95.iso 73 Mb"
21:30:09 <ehird> "# Microsoft Windows 95 operating system.iso 581 Mb"
21:30:13 <ehird> * msw95-repoc.iso 589 Mb"
21:30:37 <ehird> What an odd disrepancy.
21:31:52 <ehird> Hey, the layotu of the edit-VM page is much better on Linux.
21:32:15 <ehird> (Hey, I'm refining my "be crass without passing my conscious subsystem" code. Sorry about that nooga.)
21:32:43 <ehird> I can't believe I really typed that automatically.
21:33:29 <ehird> pikhq: what do you think is the difference between the 73 and 589 versions?
21:33:32 <ehird> one might be fake...
21:33:40 <pikhq> ehird: I'm going to assume the 73 is fake.
21:33:52 <pikhq> I know that Microsoft filled that disc.
21:33:56 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but consider that 95 fit on a few floppies.
21:34:18 <ehird> 581 vs 589... well, the # Microsoft Windows 95 operating system also comse with an ISO burner, serial keys for the burner, and a "READ ME".
21:34:20 <ehird> So I'll go with that one.
21:34:23 <nooga> msn client is heavier than w95
21:34:29 <ehird> Irritating that I have to download so much; oh well.
21:35:18 <ehird> 4 hours remaining.
21:35:20 <Azstal> don't forget to play Hover
21:35:23 <ehird> I hope that speeds up.
21:35:30 <ehird> Less than an hour remaining!
21:35:31 <pikhq> The Windows 95 CD came with more features and a metric fuckton of videos on the disc...
21:35:56 <pikhq> (why the fuck did it have music videos, anyways?)
21:36:29 <nooga> i can create x-rays using my hands :D
21:36:32 <ehird> http://tom.whitwell.googlepages.com/mssound1.mp3
21:36:50 <nooga> cto http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/video-the-scotc/
21:36:55 <ehird> It sounds so much better than the 98 version... Yay Eno.
21:37:51 <ehird> Hey, I also like Windows 2000. Nobody really appreciates it.
21:37:55 <pikhq> Also, if that's not 95 OSR/1 or greater, then you'll need to get a copy of IE to get a TCP/IP stack.
21:37:58 <ehird> pikhq: 95 didn't have serial keys, did it?
21:38:06 <pikhq> Not that I recall.
21:38:27 <ehird> pikhq: Oh; do you think in the 589 one, the extra 8 is OSR/1?
21:38:33 <ehird> I doubt it shrunk.
21:39:02 <ehird> No matter; this one is the fastest.
21:39:08 <ehird> That one doesn't have any seeders, just 14 leechers.
21:39:12 <ehird> That isn't going to, you know, work.
21:39:21 <pikhq> OSR/2.1 and OSR/2.5 added the USB stack and FAT32...
21:39:52 <ehird> FAT 16 is perfectly acceptable; I only have a 2 gig drive in this thing. :P
21:39:55 <fizzie> Hey, I do appreciate the 2k. I stuck with it a long time on that secondary Windows box.
21:40:17 <ehird> fizzie: Hooray for you, then.
21:40:32 <pikhq> They also added MMX support and 686 support with that.
21:40:45 <ehird> MMX? Psht, I have 3DNow!.
21:41:05 <ehird> It says on the little sticker. Pentium III MMX+ 3DNow!
21:41:18 <pikhq> 3DNow! is a superet of MMX. ;)
21:41:27 <ehird> Yes, but I have more than MMX, you see. :P
21:41:50 <ehird> pikhq: you accidentally the s
21:42:00 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, yes I.
21:42:06 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/PentiumMMX-presslogo.jpg
21:42:10 <ehird> See it! Hear it! Experience it!
21:42:53 <ehird> Hmm. I'm uploading this torrent at 0KiB/s.
21:42:56 <ehird> Hope they don't mind. :P
21:42:58 <ehird> A nice ratio of 0.
21:43:06 <ehird> So strange that torrents actually work.
21:43:31 <ehird> Hey, I should try 4.3BSD.
21:43:46 <ehird> I think my brain didn't register that I had a VM and could download operating systems until a few minutes ago...
21:44:40 <fizzie> There was a very shiny sticker that came with the Pentium 233 MMX I bought, though I guess it was a bit less colorful.
21:45:16 <ehird> I bet my father's workstation-tower-sized Pentium 4 powerhouse is still running Windows Me.
21:45:25 <ehird> That thing was ridiculously stable.
21:45:29 <ehird> It never crashed once, apparently.
21:45:48 <fizzie> That's really weird, given Me's reputation; and even my own experiences with it.
21:46:04 <ehird> Yeah, exactly. I was using Me at the time too and it was unstable as fuck. But then my hardware was really bad.
21:46:09 <fizzie> You must have befriended the magical Windows Me fairy.
21:46:18 <ehird> Those workstation towers are so tall.
21:46:47 <ehird> The floor of that room is filled with cables and everything around the computer is musical equipment; quite a lot of it. It's quite the sight.
21:47:09 <ehird> I haven't seen it in years, though, so I don't know if it's actually still like that.
21:47:14 <fizzie> I think the p233MMX was close to the fastest thing on the "regular" consumer market when I bought it; such speed, such power; it was really quite a "rush". (Is that the word?)
21:47:32 <ehird> Pentium H: for when you need your hit.
21:47:34 <fizzie> Not that it lasted very long before the Pentium II came along.
21:51:12 <ehird> Hmm, VirtualBox doesn't seem to have an "emulate a floppy drive with nothing in it" option.
21:51:48 <fizzie> 1997-08 for the "Tillamook" 233 MHz MMX; one of the last models, though apparently they did release 266 MHz and 300 MHz variants in 1998 and 1999. And the 333 MHz Pentium II in January 1998; so it was fast for a whole 4-5 months before becoming obsolete.
21:51:54 <fizzie> They still measured line width in micrometres instead of nanometres back then. (Okay, so 0.25 µm is 250 nm, but it's still reported in µm in Wikipedia.)
21:51:55 <ehird> Anyone knwo how to do that?
21:52:53 <fizzie> You can do it with VBoxManage, at least.
21:53:15 <fizzie> Something like "VBoxManage modifyvm <name> --floppy empty"
21:53:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure what it then looks like in the GUI.
21:54:00 <ehird> [ ] Mount Floppy Drive
21:54:10 <fizzie> Which apparently indeed does not distinguish between "empty" and "disabled". (I'm not sure which one it does if you just uncheck the mount floppy drive box.)
21:54:10 <ehird> ( ) Host Floppy Drive
21:54:51 <ehird> <no media> gives an error.
21:54:58 <ehird> "On the Floppy page, Floppy image file is not selected"
21:56:50 <ehird> "40 minutes remaining"; that got worse.
21:56:58 <pikhq> That's quite... Dumb.
21:58:39 <fizzie> Speaking of Windows 95, you'll probably want to the same thing that was recommended for win98 guests -- to run rain20 from http://www.benchtest.com/downloads/index.html since win95 won't automatically execute HLT instructions when idle, causing quite a lot of CPU use for VirtualBox.
21:58:49 <fizzie> I accidentally the verb, too.
21:59:43 <ehird> So Windows 95 always uses all your CPU?
21:59:50 <fizzie> Yes; energy saving is for hippies.
22:00:07 <ehird> Those chips must have run hot.
22:00:37 <fizzie> There's one for DOS too somewhere; it was really quite a good idea for VirtualBox-enabled DOS use, since 100 % CPU load makes the fans in this box a lot more audible.
22:01:12 <fizzie> dosidle210.zip, right.
22:01:18 <ehird> I can tell if 100% CPU is being used by ear, but I normally don't *notice* it for a few minutes.
22:01:24 <ehird> It's quite sublte.
22:01:28 <ehird> I can hear them spin down once I stop it, though.
22:02:28 <fizzie> This is far from subtle; will have to consider the noise side a bit more when the next hardware upgrade year rolls along.
22:03:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Exception: FreeDOS.
22:03:47 <pikhq> (... I think FreeDOS just already includes that, though.)
22:03:53 <ehird> Was lucky of me to jump on the Core 2 bandwagon so quickly; this December 2006 machine is still nice and fast.
22:04:08 <ehird> And all I've done is upgrade the ram from 1GiB to 2.5GiB; I should have got it with 2GiB in the first place.
22:04:25 <ehird> That was December 2008, so even the 1GiB lasted me fine for quite a while.
22:04:36 <ehird> Heck, I only upgraded from Tiger to Leopard in February... 2009.
22:04:40 <ehird> (It came out late 2007.)
22:05:05 <fizzie> 2007-08-07 HLT in the DOS idle loop in FreeDOS SVN. Or some-such.
22:09:09 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: square root of minus garfield o_O <-- yeah
22:09:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> Hmm, VirtualBox doesn't seem to have an "emulate a floppy drive with nothing in it" option. <-- eh?
22:10:05 <ehird> What do you mean, eh?
22:10:07 <AnMaster> if no floppy is inserted there will be no floppy?
22:10:14 <ehird> No floppy in the drive.
22:10:18 <ehird> The drive certainly responds to stuff, though.
22:10:29 <ehird> AnMaster: In the VM edit
22:10:49 <ehird> I want this new VM to have a floppy drive. I do not want it to have any floppies in.
22:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um my laptop is packed down in my backpack for tomorrow so can't check. No virtualbox on desktop
22:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm iirc there is always a floppy drive
22:11:23 <ehird> Is there? Aight then.
22:11:41 <AnMaster> so double check by booting some iso in it and see if it is true
22:11:45 <ehird> No biggie. I doubt 95 will install to a floppiless system anyway, so we'll see.
22:12:05 * AnMaster sets the alarm clock for 06:15
22:12:32 <pikhq> Even DOS will run just fine on a floppiless system...
22:12:58 <pikhq> I can't imagine Windows being *less* flexible.
22:12:59 <ehird> (Someone should make a bloated Microsoft DOS "distro" with a ton of stuff, and have it fill up a CD. :P)
22:13:12 <ehird> Does Windows have TSR?
22:13:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> Crazy person. <-- about 06:15?
22:13:28 <ehird> Does Windows let you access all the hardware directly without any setup?
22:14:06 <pikhq> ehird: Yes and yes. (note: Windows non-NT was quite screwy)
22:14:25 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, just need to remove the frozen water from the car windows tomorrow before leaving. Temperature during night is less than 0 C after all..
22:14:45 <AnMaster> otherwise I would set the clock for 06:20
22:15:38 <pikhq> Running DOS programs in Windows was not just mere DOS emulation. If you tried accessing the hardware directly from the DOS box, then DOS would go full-screen. ... Meaning that the Windows kernel would start acting as a TSR for interrupt handling and do nothing else.
22:15:49 <ehird> pikhq: Yah, I know that much.
22:15:52 <ehird> That's why Alley Cat works!
22:16:22 <pikhq> And TSRs would still terminate and stay resident.
22:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no. Crazy uni with stuff starting at 08:00 (and I need to commute...)
22:16:51 <ehird> So is that how loadlin works? Windows steps out, loadlin dismantles all of DOS while it's not running (and thus Windows) and then loads Linux, now having complete control over the hardware like a bootloader?
22:16:51 <pikhq> (I seem to recall that in order to access CDs with DOS programs, you had to use mscdex, even in Windows...)
22:17:36 <ehird> It could only be cooler if it saved the Windows currently running to the Linux disk, so you could have "Linux" and "Windows" icons on the opposite desktops.
22:17:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> So is that how loadlin works? Windows steps out, loadlin dismantles all of DOS while it's not running (and thus Windows) and then loads Linux, now having complete control over the hardware like a bootloader? <-- hm... loadlin worked inside win9x?
22:17:48 <ehird> Because DOS programs did.
22:18:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> It could only be cooler if it saved the Windows currently running to the Linux disk, so you could have "Linux" and "Windows" icons on the opposite desktops. <-- the linux -> windows way could maybe be done with kexec actually
22:18:58 <ehird> It'd basically be a case of "kexec a kernel that wipes all traces of Linux and then bootloads Windows".
22:19:17 <ehird> Like fast user switching, except OSs, not users, and slow. :P
22:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah... you could make it suspend to disk for linux at least
22:19:38 <ehird> Windows can hibernate, but the problem is resuming.
22:19:45 <pikhq> You could make loadlin suspend Windows to disk itself.
22:19:51 <ehird> pikhq: That's the idea.
22:19:54 <ehird> Well, I guess it'd work
22:20:15 <ehird> It'd be quite slow, but it'd work fine
22:20:15 <pikhq> That'd just be a kexec call.
22:20:26 <ehird> That'd be so much fun.
22:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, for linux the best way is s2disk. I think loadlin could even boot from resume even
22:20:37 <ehird> Quicker than dual-booting, at least. :P
22:20:53 <ehird> AnMaster: loadlin just loads the kernel like normal, so it can do the regular resume stuff.
22:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, right, as long as you can provide a command line like resume=/dev/sda5 or whatever
22:21:39 <ehird> Hee, I should do this with my Win95 setup once it's installed.
22:21:45 <ehird> AnMaster: *has >_<
22:22:00 <pikhq> loadlin takes as its first argument the vmlinuz and the rest is the kernel command line.
22:22:12 <ehird> pikhq: loadlin could theoretically boot, say, FreeBSD, right?
22:22:19 <pikhq> (and parsed as LILO does with regard to vga=)
22:22:23 <ehird> I mean, GRUB can, and it's not too far off.
22:22:47 <ehird> Heck, you could modify loadlin to run GRUB; all it does is dismantle the DOS around it, and then you're in boot-up land.
22:22:56 <pikhq> ehird: If you patched it to handle BSD kernels or made a small stub "kernel" in Linux kernel format to load FreeBSD, sure.
22:22:59 <AnMaster> I very much doubt this just does a regular "load multiboot kernel" kind of thing
22:23:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: It does a regular "load Linux kernel" kind of thing.
22:23:28 <ehird> Just modify it to load GRUB with a specified configuration file to immediately load the other OS.
22:23:40 <pikhq> ehird: That's also quite doable.
22:23:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, well is that "load any multiboot kernel" or "load just linux kernel"?
22:23:41 <ehird> Voila, you can switch to any OS without rebooting.
22:23:53 <ehird> Then writing an equivalent for Linux and BSDs would be trivial.
22:23:56 <ehird> This'd be great, actually.
22:23:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Linux uses its own kernel format.
22:24:18 <ehird> I mean, it's kinda hard to hibernate, then boot into another OS, with today's OSs.
22:24:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm? I thought grub just loaded multiboot ELF images?
22:24:31 <ehird> And this'd save a few seconds.
22:24:38 <pikhq> No. GRUB *also* supports that.
22:24:57 <AnMaster> well then, bsd will be harder for loadlin
22:24:58 <pikhq> IIRC, Xen is the only mainstream thing to use Multiboot.
22:25:02 <ehird> And if you hacked up all your OSs to boot in like 15 seconds (Ubuntu is getting 5 seconds on an SSD for 9.10, so)...
22:25:06 <ehird> Instant OS switching!
22:25:23 <pikhq> Also, Multiboot is about the only useful thing to come out of HURD yet.
22:25:33 * Sgeo_ would love instant OS switching
22:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, the "load any from win9x" would be easy. and "load any from linux" too (kexec). But for BSD hm...?
22:25:52 <pikhq> Oh, VMware's hypervisor also uses it.
22:25:57 <ehird> I'm sure BSD has some sort of kexec thing.
22:26:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, lots of small OS projects do too
22:26:16 <ehird> Sgeo_: You could even set up IRC clients on both; they'd reconnect when resumed, so you'd only ever lose IRC connection for, oh, 20-30 seconds.
22:26:53 <ehird> Multiboot is like 5-10 lines of assembly. If you're C-friendly (and thus can use GRUB), it's the obvious thing to do.
22:27:11 <AnMaster> "C-friendly (and thus can use GRUB)" <--- eh?
22:27:23 <ehird> GRUB is written in C.
22:27:41 <ehird> If you're writing, e.g. ehirdOS, you won't want to use it.
22:27:46 <pikhq> Also, Multiboot is pretty much written assuming you'll be writing the kernel entry point in C.
22:27:56 <Sgeo_> What would ehirdOS be written in?
22:28:01 <ehird> pikhq: Well, assembly.
22:28:09 <pikhq> ehird: Well, yeah.
22:28:10 <AnMaster> well, just because you don't write in a language yourself doesn't mean you feel unable to use a program written in said lang does it?
22:28:12 <ehird> Sgeo_: Assembly, maybe Forth, and Lisp or Smalltalk.
22:28:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd explain why using GRUB would be The Wrong Thing, but it'd be tedious because, you know, it's you.
22:28:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: I don't think he wants to deal with details like C structs.
22:28:36 <Sgeo_> I should try to learn Lisp
22:28:50 <Sgeo_> I think I tried once, and proceeded to forget absolutely everything
22:28:56 <ehird> It's the same reason I wouldn't use freetype or anything else C.
22:29:00 <pikhq> (GRUB passes the entry point a C struct with a bunch of pointers in it...)
22:29:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm fair enough. A bit of a pain to construct an ELF header manually I guess
22:29:12 <ehird> Because C is The Wrong Thing, and it infects things using it with The Wrong Things.
22:29:22 <Sgeo_> ehird, dogmatic much?
22:29:38 <ehird> No, Sgeo_; I've just used C software a lot.
22:30:03 <ehird> Admittedly it seems "natural" for someone used to the idiocies of low level programming, redundant memory/disk address spaces and oh-so-much more.
22:30:18 <AnMaster> doesn't multiboot give you 32-bit at entry?
22:30:26 <ehird> But I'm not particularly interested in rebutting that at the moment, having more fun things to do like try Windows 95.
22:30:28 <Sgeo_> Should I learn Common Lisp, or Scheme?
22:30:30 <AnMaster> thus making it less of a pain to set up protected mode
22:30:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, how does multiboot work on non-x86 then?
22:30:53 <ehird> Sgeo_: Start with R5RS (not R6RS; just don't use PLT Scheme and you'll be fine) Scheme.
22:31:16 <ehird> Sgeo_: If you hate it because you're a stupid loser poopyhead, try Common Lisp (implementation SBCL).
22:31:20 * Sgeo_ has no clue what any of that means
22:31:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Multiboot 2.0 which will support that doesn't exist yet.
22:31:27 <ehird> That is not surprising.
22:31:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, for example, 16-bit platforms? Or ones that start natively in 64-bit mode? Or something strange like IA64
22:31:42 <ehird> And Multiboot is x86 only.
22:31:58 <pikhq> GRUB 2.0 is portable, as is Multiboot 2.0.
22:32:01 <pikhq> Both are works in progress.
22:32:09 <ehird> both are vaporware
22:32:26 <ehird> grub 1 has been "dead" for like 10 years
22:32:27 <ehird> grub 2 is the best thing ever hur hur garbleblargle
22:32:27 <ehird> Hey, Win95 downloaderated.
22:32:28 <pikhq> GRUB 2 is in beta ATM.
22:32:30 <Sgeo_> PSOX was considered vaporware once
22:32:38 <ehird> Now should I be rude and cut of this seeding.
22:33:00 <pikhq> (and works just fine)
22:33:49 <ehird> grub 1 stagnated because of grub 2
22:34:37 <ehird> "As we all know,Microsoft has never released the Windows 95 operating system which was bootable from the CD-ROM disk and which you could install by using just the CD-ROM disk.You would always
22:34:37 <ehird> need those boot diskettes to boot from the Microsoft Windows 95 CD-ROM disk and to install Microsoft Windows 95 operating system..."
22:35:06 <ehird> Looks like it's a patched .iso to handle that for you.
22:35:18 <ehird> -The size of the hard disk drive on which you are planning to install Microsoft Windows 95
22:35:19 <ehird> operating system must be at least 9 GB in size
22:35:53 <ehird> Oh well, this should do.
22:36:17 <ehird> "Starting Windows 98". This thing uses 98 to boot 95.
22:36:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:37:02 <ehird> So, I need to do X:\SETUP.EXE and it'll start the Windows 95 installer.
22:37:06 <Deewiant> The thing itself fits in around 200 MB
22:37:10 <ehird> I'm at a Windows 98 DOS prompt :P
22:37:21 <ehird> It used that Oak Corporation CD driver; I remember that!
22:37:42 <ehird> Heh, I need to make an MS-DOS boot partition to set up Windows.
22:38:00 <ehird> But I have fdisk! So yay.
22:38:05 <ehird> "Your computer has a disk larger than 512 MB". Yes, turn on large disk support. :P
22:38:21 <ehird> Oh, apparently some versions of Windows 95 aren't compatible with that.
22:38:31 <ehird> Ah, it just means "use FAT32".
22:39:19 <ehird> *Oak Technology, not corporation.
22:40:17 <ehird> It formatted the 2GB C: in less than a second. :P
22:40:58 <ehird> Hoorah! http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-10/windows-95.png
22:41:37 <Deewiant> Wonder if the 30-60 min estimate is accurate
22:41:58 <ehird> I'll set a stopwatch off once I get to the actual installing meat.
22:42:11 <ehird> Or, uh, just note down the time.
22:42:22 <ehird> Yes I accept the license agreement. Not. :P
22:42:37 <ehird> Ha, it lets you install somewhere else than C:\WINDOWS.
22:42:58 <ehird> Heh, it has its own Portable install configuration for laptops.
22:43:17 <ehird> pikhq: It didn't have serials. But it had a Certificate of Authenticity.
22:43:21 <ehird> Which is just a smaller serial key.
22:44:13 <ehird> 22901-oem-0009093-18985"
22:44:13 <ehird> Thank you, Google.
22:45:06 <ehird> Yes, Windows 95, I have both a Network Adapter and a Sound, MIDI, or Video Capture Card.
22:45:18 <ehird> The pointer flickers a remarkable amount.
22:45:36 <ehird> it started checking for hardware
22:45:58 <ehird> (It's a hands-off part, so I'll include this in the total and just add a bit to account for them adding user input to the time.)
22:47:08 <ehird> So about two minutes.
22:47:25 <ehird> Hey, a startup disk to start my computer and run diagnostic programs if I have trouble starting Windows!
22:47:53 <ehird> Yeah, this is going to be quick. :P
22:48:07 <ehird> It's flashing all these marketing screens, but I can barely read two paragraphs before they flicker away.
22:48:18 <ehird> Wow, they had Microsoft Exchange then.
22:48:21 <ehird> And The Microsoft Network was an ISP.
22:48:31 <Deewiant> 30 to 60 min = 1x to 8x CD-ROM drive?
22:48:39 <ehird> It's copied the files.
22:48:47 <ehird> So that took under two minutes.
22:48:54 <ehird> Now going to restart and finish Setup!
22:49:15 <ehird> Heh; it thinks I have a floppy in the drive because the startup disk thing is emulating one.
22:49:18 <ehird> It's okay, man. Restart.
22:49:38 <ehird> Uh oh, was that a boot failure?
22:49:41 <ehird> I'll just hard-reset.
22:49:55 <ehird> It's hands-off now.
22:50:01 <ehird> "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..."
22:50:07 <ehird> And we're back in Setup, still hands off.
22:50:27 <ehird> I need to provide the computer and workgroup names for the network!
22:50:42 <ehird> Computer name: Eno
22:51:07 <ehird> Description: Windows 95
22:51:17 <ehird> Now it wants the Windows 95 CD-ROM.
22:51:22 <ehird> Hope the boot-up CD-ROM suffices.
22:51:46 <ehird> Ah, I just need to locate the Windows 95 files on it.
22:51:52 <ehird> Without a file browser, sigh.
22:52:18 <ehird> X:\WIN95\. Simple enough. Why is it X:\?
22:52:46 <ehird> It can't find netapi.dll, i.e. the networking stuff.
22:52:50 <ehird> I'll have to download IE or whatever.
22:53:57 <ehird> pikhq: think I should just start over and omit the networking stuff?
22:56:55 <ehird> Okay, let's try that again.
22:57:41 <ehird> Heh, it doesn't ask about the network this time.
22:57:49 <ehird> Analyzing computer.
22:58:51 <pikhq> Maybe it's working now?
22:59:36 <ehird> pikhq: Nah; it just doesn't realise it has a network now for some reason.
23:01:33 <ehird> Okay, it's failed.
23:01:57 <ehird> Okay, really hands off.
23:01:59 <ehird> It's booting Setup.
23:02:03 <ehird> Windows protection error.
23:02:27 <ehird> Fuck shitting bullhorns.
23:02:49 <ehird> Maybe it doesn't like AC97.
23:04:03 <ehird> win95 does not usually work on a cpu faster than 300 mhz...
23:04:03 <ehird> there is a patch to get it to work... but I doubt it would work on a 2.8ghz
23:04:17 <ehird> "Try installing the AMD high speed processor patch."
23:04:31 <ehird> Please note that the fix described,
23:04:32 <ehird> and also mentioned by Ben Myers in another reply in this thread, does NOT work on
23:04:32 <ehird> Win95 Gold or Win95A, which is what you have according to your description
23:05:08 <ehird> So, basically, I'm fucked at the momnet.
23:05:47 <ehird> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/192841
23:06:08 <ehird> i'll try it a few times more first
23:08:34 <ehird> Command prompt works, so let's try running this patch.
23:13:38 <ehird> lol, win /d:fmsvx gets in
23:13:47 <ehird> (every troubleshooting option apart from networking)
23:14:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:14:51 <ehird> Feast your eyes on the not-yet-fully-installed Windows 95 in safe mode! http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-10/windows-95-safe-mode.png
23:15:02 <ehird> It seems to be using DOS filenames.
23:15:40 <ehird> Access floppy drive = BSOD!
23:15:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:15:54 <ehird> And Windows freezes if you continue from it, naturally.
23:19:11 <ehird> OK, 32-bit seems to be what breaks it.
23:19:53 <ehird> There we go. Just 16-bit-disk-accses safe mode works.
23:20:56 <ehird> And exploring A: works.
23:21:28 <ehird> Update complete, bringing with it spam ISP links.
23:21:34 <ehird> Why am I not surprised, Microsoft?
23:22:04 <ehird> Okay, let's try and boot into normal Windows 95, then run Setup to fix my awful mistakes.
23:22:06 <ehird> Hey, did that work?
23:22:19 <ehird> It's setting up my hardware, apparently.
23:22:35 <ehird> And running Setup!
23:22:47 <ehird> Deewiant: they were right about 30-60 minutes...
23:22:53 <ehird> I can continue through the BSOD
23:23:24 <Deewiant> Why are you messing with Win95 anyway
23:23:41 <ehird> Enter Network Password!
23:23:46 <ehird> Hands on, installation probably finished.
23:23:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Why not? It's not totally alien and DOSlike like 3.11, but it's not all modern and icky and internetty like 98.
23:24:17 <ehird> It has no pretences of being a "real" OS, yet it has so much gooey GUI.
23:24:25 <Deewiant> People typically have reasons for installing old OSes
23:24:27 <ehird> Hey, in that background you can see one of Microsoft's split-keyboard-in-one-unit things.
23:24:37 <ehird> Deewiant: Have VM, bittorrent sites, will install OSs.
23:24:52 <lament> i want a split keyboard
23:24:54 <ehird> All installed, booted up.
23:25:09 <lament> do fully split, wireless keyboards exist?
23:25:10 <ehird> Windows Tour wants the silly CD-ROM. :P
23:25:18 <ehird> lament: Not wireless.
23:25:23 <ehird> Deewiant: That's basically 3.11.
23:25:29 <ehird> lament: Why do you need wireless? :P
23:25:41 <lament> ehird: because it's fully split
23:25:49 <ehird> "What happened to my program groups?" "What happened to File Manager?" --Windows Help
23:25:56 <lament> ehird: kinesis sells a keyboard where the two halves are connected by a 20-inch cord. That's lame.
23:26:05 <ehird> so what, mount it on your chair :D
23:26:12 <ehird> and mount the cables on your chair's back
23:26:14 <lament> 20-inch is not long enough for that
23:26:20 <ehird> How big is your chair
23:26:33 <ehird> Sweet, dragging the scrollbar doesn't do anything until you leave go
23:26:41 <ehird> Graphics are very choppy. Did it really flicker this much?
23:26:46 <ehird> Even just moving the mouse.
23:26:54 <ehird> Icon on the desktop: "The Internet".
23:27:07 * ehird clicks Properties. Looks like IE.
23:27:14 <ehird> It opens IE settings, I think.
23:27:36 <ehird> It didn't install the sounds :(
23:27:59 <ehird> Sweet, I have *four* floppy drives
23:28:41 <ehird> Haha, setup.exe runs fine on a booted 95 system
23:28:57 <ehird> Wow, explorer switches to list view if the folder has a lot of entries.
23:31:19 -!- coppro has joined.
23:43:36 <ehird> pikhq: the 79MB one wasn't faked
23:43:40 <ehird> that's the size of \win95
23:46:27 <ehird> this has microsoft chat
23:46:39 <ehird> it's some telephone thing
23:47:14 <nooga> FAILBOT READY TO OPERATE
23:47:36 <ehird> you succeeded at failing
23:47:38 <ehird> but you're failbot
23:47:41 <ehird> so you failed at being failbot
23:48:42 <nooga> that went exactly as i planned :D
23:49:08 <ehird> so it succeeded at going to plan?
23:49:11 <ehird> i thought you were failbot!
23:49:25 <nooga> i was just pretending
23:49:51 <nooga> i could write a failbot that fails at failing
23:50:29 <nooga> it could also fail at failing at failing
23:50:53 <oerjan> i never metafailbot i didn't like *barely avoids falling anvil*
23:50:55 <ehird> it'd succeed at being xzibit, which isn't failing.
23:52:18 <ehird> Hmph, I seem to have no audio drivers either.
23:52:21 <nooga> huh... what?! formal languages tomorrow at 8 in the morning :F
23:52:22 <ehird> Let's get the internet on this thing.
23:53:01 <ehird> It can't find the file on the CD-ROM; why am I surprised.
23:53:52 <ehird> It's looking in X:
23:53:55 <ehird> but my CD drive is now H:
23:54:15 <ehird> Windows 95 drive letters. :P
23:54:24 <nooga> it's like deeper :) backwards
23:55:01 <ehird> An unexpected error has occurred!
23:55:05 <ehird> Say it ain't so, IE 3.
23:55:37 <ehird> I sort of forgive it; I *am* running it in a VM with modern hardware, after all.
23:56:09 <oerjan> An expected error has occurred!
23:56:12 <ehird> This VGA driver is oh-so-very slow.
23:56:41 <pikhq> ehird: So... Win95 is 79mb, but it requires 9GB free?
23:56:59 <ehird> The 9GB figure was included in the torrent's info file.
23:57:37 <nooga> i remember playing neverhood under 95
23:57:41 <ehird> In fact it's only using 115MB; I haven't got the system sounds, though, just the Microsoft Sound. Maybe because my audio doesn't work it decided not to copy them.
23:57:46 <ehird> I love that game so much.
23:58:11 <ehird> Klaymen, you mean.
23:58:28 <ehird> I looked up the guy behind it and Earthworm Jim a few years back; he's a crazy conservative Christian type. :(
23:58:43 <ehird> (USA-style Republican.)
23:59:26 <ehird> pikhq: Say, it's possible IE 3 didn't do HTTP 1.1, isn't it?
23:59:36 <pikhq> ehird: Possible, sure.
23:59:43 <ehird> >_< you can't hit the bottom-left corner to open the start menu
00:00:47 <ehird> I don't have ipconfig or winipcfg... uh oh.
00:01:34 <ehird> To Add/Remove Programs we go, to modify the system!
00:01:45 <ehird> You know, Explorer and the Start Menu are quite nice in 95.
00:02:15 * ehird dicks the multimedia sound schemes
00:02:25 <ehird> And sound recorder.
00:02:46 <ehird> And Volume Control...
00:03:51 <ehird> Can't find anything ethernetty, but we'll do that later.
00:04:26 <ehird> I haven't installed TCP/IP.
00:06:26 <ehird> You know, 98 sucked a lot more than 95.
00:07:14 <Gregor> Windows 3.11 for Workgroups RULZ
00:07:35 <ehird> I've been please waiting while my computer shuts down for a long time now, 95.
00:08:54 <ehird> Microsoft Internet Explorer
00:09:02 <ehird> I like what you've done to my splash screen, 95.
00:09:29 <ehird> Apart from a JScript compilation error, MSN is loading.
00:09:50 <ehird> nethack.org, though, is beautiful!
00:09:59 <ehird> The grey background perfectly compliments the black logo.
00:10:39 <ehird> Anyone know how to make the 95 VGA driver not horribly slow? Thought not.
00:14:31 <ehird> Good that the internet's working, though.
00:15:25 <ehird> Oh, OF COURSE AC'97 won't work!
00:16:13 * ehird emulates a Soundblaster 16 instead
00:16:40 <Gregor> There's probably a more suitable video driver than VGA.
00:16:56 <ehird> Yes, and it's in VirtualBox's guest additions, which *probably* don't support Windows 95...
00:17:14 <Gregor> e.g. some generic VESA driver.
00:17:21 <ehird> Yes, I'll give that a try.
00:17:32 <ehird> But wow it's slow. Just shutting down takes forever to draw the screen-dimming checkerboard.
00:17:35 <ehird> I can watch it go by.
00:18:19 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:19:20 <ehird> I wonder what the Gameport Joystick it found is...
00:19:34 <ehird> Oh, no; don't tell me it can't find a file.
00:20:15 <ehird> Would help if I mounted the CD.
00:20:47 <ehird> Oh, Qt isn't hinting more; it's just using a font one point size to small. Like that Grinch fellow.
00:20:54 <ehird> Why hello there, frozen 95.
00:22:18 * ehird is thrown into the 98 booter for the hacked 95 CD, and elects to boot windows with C:\win
00:22:46 <ehird> Well, windows\win.
00:23:04 <ehird> Aww, it can't start like that.
00:24:43 <ehird> Aaand there's Eno's soothing tones.
00:27:00 <ehird> Gregor: Far as I can tell 95 doesn't have any VESA drivers!
00:27:06 <ehird> It does have a selection of VGA ones, though, and an SVGA one.
00:27:24 <ehird> Well, there's "Standard PCI Graphics Adapter (XGA)".
00:27:28 <Gregor> Try SVGA, that should still be better.
00:27:44 <ehird> Whatsabout that PCI XGA one?
00:27:45 <ehird> I'm not sure it's being exposed as PCI.
00:28:05 <ehird> OTHER HARDWARE CONFLICTS DUN DUN DUN
00:28:16 <ehird> Hey an alert sound. It sucks.
00:28:26 <ehird> Windows 95 is being annoyingly usable so far.
00:28:36 <ehird> It's meant to be all complicated and ancient so I can laugh at it.
00:29:17 <ehird> And it crashes like usual, so I'll reboot and it'll install it on start-up.
00:31:12 <ehird> Well it failed at that; it can't find drivers for Unknown Device.
00:31:43 <ehird> Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze
00:31:58 <ehird> Realise I didn't put the 98 disc in
00:33:42 <ehird> It's currently using PCI/VGA.
00:34:19 <ehird> Apply, restart and here we go.
00:34:39 <ehird> I love how 95 can restart without going through the BIOS.
00:35:02 <ehird> Okay, the XGA driver isn't compatible, but it falled back.
00:35:08 <ehird> ...you know, Xorg doesn't fall back.
00:35:28 <ehird> I will note that Xorg sucks.
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00:35:53 <Warrigal> It's impossible for something to do X where X is failing at X.
00:36:14 <ehird> Aaand I can have 800x600 with 16 colours, plus change my font sizes.
00:37:22 <ehird> Works, but is just as slow.
00:39:56 <ehird> Apparently I'm using a Pentium Pro.
00:44:25 <ehird> freenode's java applet fails because there's no document.getElementById :)
00:45:27 <ehird> JScript didn't support object literals, then...
00:47:36 <ehird> mIRC still supports Windows 95?!?!!?!?!
00:50:09 -!- ehird95 has joined.
00:50:25 <ehird95> Am I possibly the prers on using the oldest OS to enter here?
00:50:38 <ehird95> :Harumph, backspace doesn't work.
00:50:51 <ehird95> I don't think anyone's used anythinig older than Windows 95 to come here, anyway.
00:51:05 <ehird95> Greetz from Windows 95 Telnet.
00:51:18 <ehird95> coppro: despite what I told Telnet, freenode's IRC link is anonot a VT100.
00:51:29 <ehird95> It will be dstripping out my backspaces.
00:51:44 <ehird95> Although I'm avoiding using that key, due to it, you nkow, being useless.
00:53:34 <Azstal> mIRC works on windows 95, you know.
00:53:40 <Azstal> although I suppose telnet is preferable to mIRC.
00:53:45 <ehird95> See two lines beofore I entered.
00:53:56 <ehird95> Anyway, mIRc is C is so bloated thseese days.
00:54:07 * Azstal makes a note to be less lazy
00:54:13 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
00:54:45 <ehird95> Is there a Telnet option to wait for the whole line beofore ensending?
00:54:53 <ehird95> Is there an option to read the - oh, there it is.
00:55:04 <Asztal> it would feel slightly 95-y if you left it in fixedsys
00:55:05 <ehird> Silly laggy network stack.
00:55:16 <ehird> Asztal: BUT ONLY SLIGHTLT
00:55:49 <ehird95> Any ideas for making the grahics performance less cripplingly slow?
00:58:06 * ehird95 makes 95 not prompt for a network logon on startup, reboots to persist that setting and see if it works
00:58:15 <ehird95> Yes, I did just type that using literal Ctrl-As.
00:58:27 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:58:55 <ehird> Actually it prompts me for a username and password, but I can skip that to disable it.
00:59:52 <ehird> Hmm, it wants a username though.
01:00:02 <ehird> So what was my username before this, I wonder?
01:04:22 <ehird> "BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 T6"
01:05:03 <coppro> the Ig Nobels are on :)
01:06:01 <ehird> the ig nobels vaguely irriate me
01:06:30 <ehird> it groups valid research with homeopaths, and says to the valid researchers "your work seems amusing to the common man! harde har har!"
01:12:14 <coppro> the Rule of Funny wins
01:14:34 <ehird> nobody talks about windows 95 on google :(
01:16:38 <Warrigal> ehird: I always use literal Ctrl-As to type my ACTIONs when doing IRC via telnet.
01:16:55 <ehird> Warrigal: Yes, but this is Windows Telnet.
01:16:59 <ehird> Graphical. Weird thing.
01:17:21 <ehird> "If you want True color or high resolution, you need to download special drivers.
01:17:21 <ehird> http://www.geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm"
01:18:14 <ehird> Universal VESA/VBE Video Display Driver
01:18:14 <ehird> (for Windows 9x x86 Architecture)
01:20:43 <ehird> Some old version of Opera is likely to be the snappiest, most compatible browser for this, right?
01:21:42 <Sgeo_> What version of IE is on there, if any?
01:22:06 <Sgeo_> IE4 doesn't work with msn.com, incidentally
01:22:16 <ehird> I can probably get IE 5.5 or something, max.
01:22:18 <Sgeo_> What OSes were IE2 and 1 for?
01:22:27 <ehird> 3.0 or 3.11 or something
01:22:29 <Sgeo_> I got IE6 working on Win98
01:23:24 * ehird reboots, installs the third-party VESA driver, yay?
01:24:16 <ehird> Heh, IE 3 can't do about:blank
01:24:35 <ehird> C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\BLANK.HTM
01:24:36 <Sgeo_> I remember playing with IE's about:some_html
01:25:16 <ehird> You know, by "IE is a part of the OS" I think they meant "we forgot to make folders, so we have our HTM files in C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM and stuff, and we can't figure out how to extract all the files".
01:25:30 <ehird> And lo, Marketing went: "And this is Good."
01:26:20 <ehird> I wish my mouse wheel worked.
01:26:24 <Sgeo_> I thought IE wasn't considered part of the OS until 98?
01:27:38 <ehird> "Slow driver operation when user scroll, move or resize a window."
01:27:44 <ehird> Sgeo_: Probably true
01:28:07 <ehird> Sgeo_: It's certainly an OS *component* in 95, though.
01:28:16 <ehird> It even changes the boot splash to include "Microsoft Internet Explorer".
01:28:56 * Sgeo_ remembers changing his bootscreen to Userfriendly stuff
01:29:54 <ehird> Should have changed it to your desktop background, say with a fake window saying "Starting Windows...". It'd feel like the graphics have initialised earlier, providing that your resolution was low enough that it didn't look all pixelated. :P
01:30:08 <ehird> "It's so fast now!"
01:32:00 <ehird> Cool, 95 can't handle PNGs by default.
01:34:40 <ehird> Well, PNG came out in 1997 I think.
01:35:39 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The service pack for 95 included IE.
01:35:51 <pikhq> Made some rather massive patches.
01:36:03 <Sgeo_> ehird, clearly, we should all switch back to .gif!
01:36:06 <pikhq> (largely for the sake of "ITS PART OF THE OS!")
01:36:34 <Sgeo_> .gif has wider support than .png!
01:36:45 <Sgeo_> (The patent on GIFs ran out, right?)
01:37:07 <ehird> Well, on the algorithm.
01:37:21 <ehird> Hmm, I need to unzip things.
01:37:29 <ehird> I guess WinZip is my best option for 95...
01:45:04 <ehird> 7-Zip lists its first working version as 98; worth the risk, I wonder?
01:46:40 <ehird> Apparently some older 7-Zips worked on 95, so.
01:46:52 <ehird> An older WinZip might actually be lighter, though.
01:47:35 <ehird> It's impossible to use sourceforge's download site with IE 3, so old WinZip it is.
01:55:08 <ehird> "Tight integration with the Windows 95 shell"
01:55:11 <ehird> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :P
01:56:41 <ehird> WinZip 6.2, circa 1996.
01:56:55 <ehird> It looks like every WinZip version.
01:57:28 <ehird> "CompuServe mail: 70056,241"
01:57:41 <ehird> "Bringing the convenience of Windows to the use of ZIP files"
01:57:55 <ehird> Ooh, and it still has that Path column instead of showing a hierarchical view.
01:58:05 <ehird> Why do they do that?
02:00:16 <ehird> Driver installed with a double-click, files deletes.
02:02:03 <ehird> Okay, not *quite* double-clicking; think I need to use it as a Have Disk.
02:03:17 <ehird> Ohnoes, an error D:
02:03:36 <ehird> Well, I'll reboot and hope for the best.
02:04:08 <ehird> Pow! Kazap! That's some fast display technology!
02:04:25 <ehird> 256 color?!!?! Let's use... AWESOME COLOURW^W32-bit
02:04:58 <ehird> It only goes to 800x600; probably because of the 256-colour thing. Should be able to bunk that up post-32bitizing.
02:05:10 <ehird> Can VESA only do 800x600?
02:08:59 <ehird> "Users employing the Windows 95 operating system who want to install Opera 9.5 are therefore advised to download and install the free Windows Sockets 2.0 update from Microsoft."
02:09:09 <ehird> They... still supported 95 as of last version?
02:12:00 * ehird installs Rain, then sets about finding a browser, IRC client
02:16:09 <ehird> And so my fan spins down; thanks, Rain.
02:21:55 * ehird installs IntelliPoint drivers 4.01 for Windows 95
02:21:55 <ehird> Should include Wheel Mouse drivers, which should enable the mouse wheel.
02:22:50 <ehird> ...apparently these MOUSE DRIVERS require a newer IE.
02:23:17 <ehird> I've been talking to myself for an awful long while; anyone there?
02:24:02 <ehird> Any ideas how the fuck some mouse drivers for Windows 95 could require IE in any way?
02:24:11 <ehird> Or is it just forcing me to install it because of bullshit, and lying to me about why?
02:25:44 <ehird> Heh, it's unable to launch IE5setup.exe anyway.
02:25:59 <ehird> I'll Just Use An Older Version(TM).
02:35:46 <ehird> I think they've removed the fucking drivers.
02:50:37 <oklopol> i have 40-50 math problems a week, plus a few hundred pages to read
02:50:53 <oerjan> ah the overachieving thing
02:51:26 * coppro has lots of work he should be doing
02:51:41 <coppro> such as doing a bonus assignment to bring my test mark in Bio up to 100% :D
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02:52:27 <oklopol> really my competitiveness is completely rational, in automata theory, i was disappointed there was no problem only i had done
02:52:29 <ehird_> <ehird> he was here before oerjan
02:52:31 <ehird_> <ehird> yesterday i think
02:52:40 <oklopol> didn't matter i was the only one to have done them all
02:53:01 <oerjan> ehird_: i'm sure you quoted that from months ago :D
02:53:14 <oklopol> i was here this morning i think
02:54:06 <oerjan> well i was probably sleeping. as i will soon.
02:57:52 <ehird_> hmm formatting one of those extraneous disk drives instantly closes virtualbox
02:57:58 <ehird_> i guess they're non-floppy things that it mistakes for floppies :)
02:58:04 <ehird_> god windows 95 is so quick to boot up
02:58:10 <coppro> hmm... this pizza guy is bad, but he doesn't set a record
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02:58:54 <oklopol> also i was disappointed the guy in the wheelchair who can only mumble and bite his arm was actually just an average student, i had my hawking fantasies
03:00:12 * oerjan now has fantasies of him being a pizza guy on the side
03:00:13 <ehird_> oerjan: you mean moutharm
03:00:56 <oerjan> how do you know i suffer from brachiophagia -----###
03:01:17 <oklopol> so, see you later, need to go do stuff ->
03:01:50 <oerjan> only skin deep, but still
03:02:22 <coppro> funnily enough, CSS level 2 isn't out but CSS level 3 is already being drafted
03:05:31 <ehird_> it's only css 2.1 that isn't out
03:08:53 <ehird_> gah, I like Windows 95
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03:29:40 <ehird_> Please Tell Me Why You Are Still Useing Windows 95 WHEN You Can Buy a Recon XP Machine Of A Decent Spec for 75 Pounds Why Are U Still F**king Around With 95 Well Ok I Still Have A 98 Machine But Thats ON 24 7 for my email inbox for work it sa pice of s**t but i only need 4 emails --Annoyances.org Windows 95 forum
03:31:34 <oerjan> clearly that guy has the annoyance part spot on
03:31:58 <ehird_> it's like idiot poetry.
03:46:07 <coppro> ehird_: you weren't entirely correct about Intel drivers sucking less that ATI. Less stuff works, but the stuff that works works better
03:46:10 <coppro> s/less that/more than/
03:48:39 <ehird_> anyway, it's still shit slow
03:49:21 <coppro> and I can run compositing and OGL at the same time
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04:13:28 * ehird upgrades MSIE 3.0 to MSIE 3.02 to get the new WinInet.dll for Opera 9
04:14:09 * ehird sees if he can persuade opera 10 to run
04:14:35 <ehird> perhaps with the classic installer
04:14:39 <ehird> if that doesn't work, opera 9.64 classic installer
04:17:21 <ehird> "Warning: Using this option requires all users on this computer to be administrators."
04:17:32 <ehird> Users? Administrators? What do you speak of, clearly modern program!
04:18:26 <ehird> "The system library Msimg32.dll is missing or too old, so certain transparency effects will be slow and possibly not drawn corectly. Obtaining the library from a Windows ME installation and placing it in your Windows system directory will fix this."
04:18:42 <ehird> Well gee, I don't think I'm going to be infecting this VM with the virus you speak of... :P
04:19:02 <ehird> It, uh, holy shit.
04:19:18 <ehird> Like, works works.
04:19:44 <coppro> nothing from ME is good EVER
04:20:04 <ehird> You've gotta wonder why they bother coding for it.
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04:20:16 <ehird> SPEAKING OF BITCHES HI AUGUR
04:20:37 <ehird> ha, it really works properly
04:20:42 <ehird> reddit.com renders in a few seconds smoothly
04:21:44 <ehird> For my next trick, I'm going to fucking - wait for it - try to install Flash.
04:21:54 <ehird> I WILL CONQUER YOU, WINDOWS 95!
04:22:00 <ehird> I WILL FIND WHAT YOU CANNOT DO, AND I WILL SPIT AT THEE!
04:22:52 <ehird> "Windows 98/ME" WELL THAT'S BASICALLY LIKE 95!
04:23:04 <ehird> Heh, no Flash 10 for me, oh no, only 9
04:23:41 <ehird> Unsupported operating system.
04:23:44 <ehird> Well I'll just go for the previous version!
04:26:17 <ehird> Note to self: Make it so that hovering over Opera's menu doesn't highlight them; other programs don't do that,.
04:34:06 -!- ehird95 has joined.
04:34:20 <ehird95> I'm using Opera 10 on Windows 95.
04:34:51 <ehird95> <ehird95> VERSION Opera/9.80 (Windows 95; U; en) Presto/2.2.15 Version/10.00
04:36:26 <ehird95> I ought to see if mIRC would run better... hey, why is Opera in my system tray?
04:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:37:46 <ehird95> Hmm... how can I remove it...
04:45:08 -!- augur has joined.
04:46:06 <augur> next itll be ehird98
04:46:33 <ehird95> Naw. 98 is boring, but 2000 is fun. Me is just oh god.
04:46:41 <ehird95> augur: also, I'm actually using Windows 95 to type this line.
04:47:15 <ehird95> I'm using Opera 10, which also renders modern webpages really snappily just fine. Admittedly 95 is being virtualised under a system with a 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo.
04:47:21 <ehird95> The VM only has 64MiB of RAM though.
04:47:37 <ehird95> Also, my scroll wheel works.
04:47:52 -!- ehird95 has left (?).
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04:49:00 <ehird95> Anyway, I actually had to install drivers for Microsoft mice, but they enable the scroll wheel just fine...
04:53:38 <ehird95> So, the latest mIRC should also work with 95.
05:01:11 <ehird95> I don't suppose anyone knows of a good tool to measure memory and CPU usage by individual processes in a list for windows 9x? Thought not.
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05:46:24 <lament> I wonder if ehird95 will say something.
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05:50:06 <ehird> I wonder why opening a DOS prompt garbles everything.
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06:43:57 <ehird95> with the glorious power of the registry, I have enabled full colour icons!
06:45:51 <ehird95> I was limited to 800x600 because of the setting of the monitor to svga 800x600
06:46:19 <ehird95> now i can have up to 1600x1200!
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06:59:54 * Rugxulo wonders why ehird is obsessed with visual effects ...
07:14:09 * Rugxulo is brainstorming for suitable words using A, A, T ("skip to next line" idiom in ETA)
07:15:01 <Rugxulo> can't use any of the following before those, though: HTAOINSE
07:17:41 <Rugxulo> "apathy", "a cat", "Paul Blart", ...
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07:47:20 <ehird95> Rugxulo: i'm not "obsessed with visual effects"
07:47:29 <ehird95> it's just that the 16-color icons for modern programs are reaaaaaaaaaaally ugly
07:47:42 <ehird95> and it's just one registry change to fix the *artificially limited* colors
07:48:13 <Rugxulo> I don't think they sell Plus! anymore
07:48:36 <ehird95> Rugxulo: yeah, they don't sell Windows 95 any more, either; but that's what I did the hack on because when they made 95 they were trying to sell Plus!.
07:48:39 <Rugxulo> besides, I think Vista is different
07:48:55 <ehird95> do you realise that the icons were 16-color before...
07:49:18 <ehird95> I was fixing an intentional deficiency in Windows 95 so that the icons for modern programs were legible; it took about 10 seconds.
07:49:20 <Sgeo__> I remember playing games that came with Windows 98 Plus!
07:49:41 <ehird95> Nobody makes 16-color icons nowadays, so they're illegible blobs.
07:50:05 * Sgeo__ wonders if Windows 98 Plus! would work in Xp
07:50:32 <Rugxulo> MS couldn't even get Vista out the door without breaking MSVC 2k5 etc.
07:51:04 <ehird95> Anyway, I've had no luck getting a widescreen resolution, though Nathan of toastytech.com used Windows 95 with a widescreen monitor as his main OS as recently as a few years ago, iirc
07:51:14 <ehird95> But that's with a Voodoo card; I just have this lowly VESA thing.
07:51:33 <ehird95> Still, it's pushing 1280x1024 at the moment, with a small black bar at the top and bottom and big ones to the sides.
07:51:41 <ehird95> The graphics performance is... not stellar.
07:52:00 <ehird95> But menus and windows and such pop up instantly, and Opera 10 is more or less usable when it isn't apparently using up all the CPU.
07:52:28 <Rugxulo> I'd be surprised if Opera 10 did that, but who knows ...
07:53:01 * Rugxulo has been using Chrome a lot lately, so has been neglecting Opera, Firefox, etc.
07:53:16 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I can't use Chrome because it requires 2000/XP and I'm using 95.
07:53:36 <Rugxulo> even Firefox 2.0.0.18 (or whatever) still works on Win95, right?
07:53:49 <ehird95> Besides, Opera 10 supports more stuff and is waaaay more snappy.
07:53:49 <Rugxulo> but yeah, if you're using an older computer without multi-core, a lot of stuff won't be as fast
07:54:07 <Rugxulo> I'm 99% sure that 2.0.0.18 supports Win98 at least (not Win95 also??)
07:54:09 <ehird95> Oh, I have two cores; it's just that I'm using an OS that thinks I'm running the top-of-the-line processor, a Pentium Pro.
07:54:18 <Rugxulo> Win95 is not dual core friendly
07:54:20 <ehird95> Rugxulo: 2 drops support for 95
07:54:23 <Rugxulo> ah, VM, no wonder it's slow
07:54:32 <ehird95> Nowadays VMs run the code directly on the CPU
07:54:49 <ehird95> Only the hardware is emulated
07:54:52 <Rugxulo> not all of it, and even then that's only with virtualization extensions
07:54:56 <ehird95> And it doesn't take much to push some pixels
07:55:00 <Sgeo__> I still don't understand how Win95 and Win98 are so different. I know that a lot of stuff runs on 98 but not 95, but WHY?
07:55:00 <ehird95> It's just that the VESA driver is, well, slow
07:55:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: Of course I'm using the virtualization extensions
07:55:20 <ehird95> VMs are worthlessly slow without them
07:55:34 <Rugxulo> slow is still better than nothing
07:55:37 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Win98 replaces explorer with IE. Most else is artificial.
07:55:51 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I don't *need* to run Win95; if I had to have it so slow I probably wouldn't bother
07:56:00 * Rugxulo doesn't know all the differences either, but Win98SE had a different driver model, no?
07:56:12 <Rugxulo> why are you running Win95, then?
07:56:40 <Rugxulo> by itself? or do you have apps too?
07:56:43 <ehird95> It's quite modern - can run an impressive amount of Windows software - and uses the same basic GUI paradigm as in the ever-popular XP - and yet it's really simple.
07:57:21 <ehird95> which comes on a CD and bundles IE 3
07:57:35 <ehird95> I upgraded IE from 3.0 to 3.02 to get a new DLL file for Opera 10
07:57:48 <Rugxulo> heh, my copy was an "upgrade", came with two floppies for Win 3.0 and like 16 more 1.68 MB overformatted floppies for Win95 itself (pre-OSR2.5)
07:57:48 <Sgeo__> Ugh, this song is not how my nostalgic memory remembers it, but it has to be the right song
07:57:59 <ehird95> Software I'm using: Microsoft IntelliPoint 3.something (for MS mice, but it makes the mouse wheel work)
07:58:03 <Rugxulo> I'm very surprised Opera 10 works
07:58:15 <Rugxulo> actually, I was kinda pissed when a lot of people dropped support for Win9x fairly recently
07:58:27 <Rugxulo> (Firefox, Pelles C, soon Cygwin, etc.)
07:58:28 <ehird95> Rugxulo: codewise 9x is a bitch.
07:58:41 <ehird95> I'm just glad that the Opera and mIRC devs are crazy.
07:58:41 <Rugxulo> more than DOS? doubt it ;-)
07:58:49 <ehird95> With DOS you just poke the hardware.
07:58:58 <ehird95> With 9x you poke the hardware through a buggy and fucked-up additional layer.
07:59:14 <Rugxulo> you can use the wheel in DOS too (CuteMouse)
07:59:23 <ehird95> Opera 10 is stunning for the OS, though; it can render modern pages in seconds
07:59:33 <Rugxulo> very very lucky that it works there
07:59:57 <ehird95> it's still an officially supported platform, and they have knowledge-base articles about it for fixing problems as recently as opera 9
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08:00:09 <ehird95> explaining that you have to install winsock2
08:00:15 <ehird95> so some crazy people must be using opera on windows 95
08:00:42 <Rugxulo> heck, even some things (e.g. VirtualBox since 1.52 or so) don't even run on Win2k !!
08:00:46 <ehird95> gotta wonder if the execs have got word of that... don't think they'd be so fond of spending so many resources for that 0.0001% :-)
08:00:48 <Rugxulo> so getting Win9x compatibility is even harder!
08:01:07 <ehird95> If I developed Windows software I'd never think about supporting 9x, just for my sanity
08:01:27 <Rugxulo> well, you're too young ... if you grew up with it, it might be different (nostalgia, experience, etc.)
08:01:30 <ehird95> I don't really care if support is dropped; this is a fun historical curiosity and something to put on less beefy machines, not a hyper-duper-workstation-2009
08:01:35 <ehird95> and I can always use old versions
08:01:54 <ehird95> Rugxulo: Hey, I grew up with 3.11.
08:02:00 <Rugxulo> Win9x is limited in max. RAM anyways, and SATA drives are either hard or impossible to get working, so it's definitely not for new machines
08:02:12 <Rugxulo> needs patches just to run newer Firefox or Doom 3 or whatever ...
08:02:16 <ehird95> (98 was out in the year I got a computer, so it and 95 must have been too expensive :-P)
08:02:25 <fizzie> 3.11 with win32s is the one that's a bit hard to find support for nowadays.
08:02:37 <Rugxulo> nothing runs on Win32s, I looked (a year or so ago) ;-)
08:02:44 <ehird95> Rugxulo: limited in max ram? isn't it just to like 2GiB
08:02:55 <ehird95> I wouldn't call that a huge limitation because, you know, it's 95
08:03:06 <ehird95> I'm running a smoooooooooooooooooooth workstation here with 64MiB of virtual ram
08:03:14 <ehird95> Don't think it's swapped once :P
08:03:15 <Rugxulo> one guy uses the other gig of his RAM for a big RAM drive ;-)
08:03:31 <ehird95> Put the swap file on that RAM drive.
08:03:36 <ehird95> Bazam, extra, slightly slower RAM!
08:03:50 <Rugxulo> something like that, I forget the details
08:04:10 <Rugxulo> and actually I'm not sure if any (most?) MS OSes even support PAE besides the server versions (maybe)
08:04:24 <ehird95> Anyway, you can actually use disks as big as you want with 95; iirc 64GB was claimed as the limit but apparently 160GB and the like work just fine
08:04:37 <Rugxulo> 137 GB without some fix, I think
08:04:54 <Rugxulo> even Win98 had a bug where it would crash if you left it running for like 48 days
08:05:03 <Rugxulo> (obviously no one ever did, heh)
08:05:16 <ehird95> Wonder if suspend/resume counts, or hibernate/resume
08:05:27 <ehird95> If so then it could be semi-relevant on a laptop.
08:05:27 <Rugxulo> besides servers, I doubt if anybody would want to
08:05:34 <ehird95> Then again Windows crashes more frequently than that anyway.
08:05:44 <Rugxulo> not sure if Win9x supports ACPI
08:05:56 <ehird95> As a plus, though, 95 boots to desktop in, oh, 15 seconds?
08:06:01 <fizzie> Or 2^32 milliseconds, if you prefer.
08:06:11 <fizzie> 49.71026962962962962962
08:06:23 <ehird95> Although if it wants to ScanDisk because you crashed, which is when boot time matters most, it takes about a minute or so.
08:06:31 <ehird95> Which is irritating, as it refuses to let you skip it.
08:06:31 <Rugxulo> XP was allegedly designed to boot to GUI in 30 secs. (but that doesn't count responsiveness)
08:06:41 <Rugxulo> Vista is a lot more responsive quicker
08:06:53 <Rugxulo> (allegedly, hard to compare when my XP machine is single core and this one is dual)
08:06:55 <ehird95> The GUI of 95 is very well polished
08:07:12 <ehird95> I'd say it's more focused than Mac OS, apart from the settings dialogs, which are a bit sprawling.
08:07:14 <Rugxulo> ehird, that's the price you pay for FAT vs. NTFS
08:08:10 <ehird95> brb, uninstaller wants me to reboot :P
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08:10:04 <fizzie> That win95 pinball works on win32s, they say. And I do remember having some programs that required win32s.
08:10:25 <ehird95> Argh, I think I'm going to have to write a little program that runs in the background and, if you click in the bottom-left corner, opens the start menu.
08:10:40 <fizzie> See, there's a whole list of win32s-compatible programs: http://www.i24.com/en/win32s/tips/w32slist.htm
08:10:44 <ehird95> 2000 and XP do it, even though the button seems to stop before then; it's so annoying to see a corner being used without Fitt's Law.
08:11:12 <ehird95> It must be easy to get all mouse clicks in a certain position, right? No permissions or anything to deal with.
08:11:35 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I mean it's hard to find freeware Win32s apps anymore
08:11:52 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom still supports all that stuff, though (ironically)
08:12:40 <ehird95> One option for Windows 95's sharp GUI + less horrifically broken internals is Windows NT 4.0, which is... just that.
08:12:40 <Rugxulo> seen that list, not huge, most of that is hard to find, barely works, or ain't free
08:12:57 <ehird95> NT kernel running the Windows 95 shell.
08:13:00 <Rugxulo> Win NT 4.0 needs higher requirements and only goes up to DX3
08:13:12 <Rugxulo> and no LFNs for DOS apps (without TSR / DLL combo)
08:13:22 <ehird95> That DX3 thing is an issue, but higher system requirements is kinda irrelevant; they're all rock-bottom.
08:13:33 <ehird95> Also, how many DOS apps actually use LFNs?
08:13:37 <Sgeo__> Infinite width buttons!
08:13:42 <Rugxulo> irrelevant now but not then
08:13:46 <Rugxulo> how many? all DJGPPv2 apps!
08:13:50 <ehird95> Yes, but I'm talking now. :P
08:14:05 <ehird95> Also, how many are there of those? 3?
08:14:24 <ehird95> Mostly unix stuff, though, yah?
08:14:26 <Rugxulo> even a lot of FreeDOS' 16-bit stuff supports LFNs
08:14:43 <fizzie> DJGPP was pretty popular among hobbyist-freeware-developery people.
08:14:48 <fizzie> What with being, you know, free.
08:14:56 <Rugxulo> free and good (POSIX, GCC, etc.)
08:14:56 <fizzie> My first C compiler, I think.
08:15:15 <Rugxulo> current DJGPP + GCC beats OpenWatcom hands down
08:15:15 <ehird95> Yay, some bullshit I can't delete.
08:15:45 <fizzie> Of course all the "real" coders had a copy of Watcom with a bit shady background.
08:16:07 <ehird95> Speaking of shady backgrounds, I wonder if I can get Microsoft to sue me for pirating this 95.
08:16:15 <Rugxulo> GCC wasn't as good until the ECGS merger (1999), then it really took off
08:16:17 <fizzie> Using dos4gw instead of cwsdpmi is the true mark of a professional.
08:16:23 <ehird95> Like, throw rocks in Bill's window with "I PIRATED 95" etched into them.
08:16:39 <Rugxulo> dos4gw is desperately buggy
08:16:45 <Rugxulo> and big and bloated, but it mostly works
08:17:08 <fizzie> ehird: MURDER doesn't have a STATUTE of LIMITATIONS; I'm sure they'd sue you.
08:17:10 <Rugxulo> Doom used Watcom/DOS4GW but Quake used DJGPPv2
08:17:10 * Sgeo__ has a legal copy of Win98 >.>
08:17:22 <ehird95> Win98! It's like 95 but with IE craptergration!
08:17:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, even if they did, I could just send you like my 18-floppy copy (heh) and they'd probably shut up
08:17:33 <ehird95> 98SE! It's like 98 except it's totally new!
08:17:50 * Rugxulo seriously prefers FreeDOS over Win9x
08:18:01 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I'm actually considering reinstalling from the floppy copy (don't copy that floppy); it doesn't force you to install IE, you see.
08:18:04 <Sgeo__> Does the 95 disk have the Microsoft Comic Chat or wahtever it's called?
08:18:13 <ehird95> Sgeo__: not sure. I can look if you want.
08:18:34 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, but what host OS are you running Win95 on?
08:18:36 <fizzie> Given that the licenses don't really expire, I think I have a "legal" copy of win95 (and possibly some out of {3.11, 3.1, 3.0, 1.02} too, I don't quite remember where those came from) too.
08:18:53 <Rugxulo> VirtualBox is good (although not as much with 16-bit code)
08:18:53 * Sgeo__ wonders what Windows 1.02 was like
08:19:03 <ehird95> Host OS is Ubuntu 9.10 alpha6.
08:19:07 * Rugxulo never used it but has seen the pics, ugh
08:19:10 <ehird95> Running on a late-2006 iMac.
08:19:14 <Rugxulo> 9.10 beta was released recently
08:19:17 <fizzie> Hey, EGA graphics and everything.
08:19:24 <ehird95> Rugxulo: That'll just come in the updates.
08:19:40 <fizzie> And Win1 did support windowing! Though not overlapping windows, obviously, just split-screening.
08:19:42 <Sgeo__> VirtualBox fullscreen doesn't change the host resolution in Windows, boo
08:19:47 <ehird95> I've had this iMac since 2006 and OS X only started to annoy me recently.
08:19:59 <ehird95> 95 actually still has Program Manager!
08:20:07 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I know ... not exactly useful IMHO
08:20:28 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Well, you could also minimize programs, so it makes some sense. Maybe. A bit.
08:21:02 <Sgeo__> ...I just tried progman in XP..
08:21:17 <ehird95> "WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY?" -- \Sampler\Videos\200bttrf
08:21:34 <Sgeo__> So far, it didn't complain about it not existing, but nothing's starting
08:22:05 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Windows1.0.png is a very representable screenshot of Windows 1; that's what it looked like.
08:22:14 <ehird95> A Weezer video on the 95 CD? Microsoft tricked me into downloading a Weezer video.
08:22:43 <fizzie> The green bar at the bottom edge gets icons for minimized programs.
08:23:02 <ehird95> Sgeo__: can't find comic chat.
08:23:14 <Sgeo__> anything with chat? I don't remember the exact name
08:23:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I seem to remember that 1.0 was just monochrome, and the 1.02 update got us EGA colors, but I guess it's also possible we just used 1.0 with the monochrome Hercules card and the 1.02 was on another computer with EGA graphics.
08:23:21 <ehird95> Just a telephone-calling application.
08:23:52 <fizzie> "Comic Chat was released with the full downloads of Internet Explorer 3, 4, and 5, as well as in the Windows 98 and Windows 2000 distributions."
08:24:05 <ehird95> I just installed the Typical 3.02; thank god not the Full.
08:24:19 <fizzie> What, don't you want all the bells and whistles?
08:24:51 <fizzie> Did it come with NetMeeting?
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08:25:30 * Sgeo__ remembers playing with NetMeeting
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08:25:47 <ehird95> Gah, I really need to remember that opening DOS apps breaks this thing.
08:26:01 <fizzie> Didn't they rename Comic Chat to "Microsoft Chat"?
08:26:43 <ehird95> It makes the display go all funny and I have to hard-reset it.
08:26:51 <Sgeo__> "Microsoft Comic Chat installed a custom font, Microsoft Comic Sans, that users could use in other applications and documents."
08:27:01 <ehird95> Rugxulo: it happens with any DOS thingy.
08:27:04 <fizzie> I remember the wfw3.11 "WinPopup" messaging. It's like IM, except not quite.
08:27:18 <Rugxulo> must be a bad setting in your .PIF
08:27:32 <Rugxulo> not sure, dosprmpt.pif perhaps
08:27:45 <fizzie> Haha, "There is also a port to linux with an extended feature called LinPopUp, which allows adding Linux computers to the set. Linpopup is an X Window graphical port of Winpopup, and a package for Debian linux. It runs over Samba. Linpopup does not have to run all the time, can run minimized, and its messages are encrypted with a strong cypher." That's among the most useless things I can imagine.
08:27:54 <ehird95> Rugxulo: and how would I fix it? :P
08:28:24 <ehird95> No it's not, I just tried. :P
08:28:53 <ehird95> Start->Run "pifedit C:\windows\dosprmpt.pif".
08:29:15 <ehird95> cannot find the file pifedit or one of its components.
08:29:53 <ehird95> It just can't find the file.
08:29:55 <ehird95> That's the error it gives. :P
08:29:59 <Rugxulo> not that, the screen mess-up thingy
08:30:11 <fizzie> "To correct this problem, you must modify either dosprmpt.pif, command.pif or 4dos.pif, whichever is present in your Windows directory.
08:30:11 <fizzie> In Windows 3.1 and NT you must use pifedit.exe to modify them. In Windows 95 you can press ALT+ENTER on the PIF files or on command.com/4dos.com directly."
08:30:23 <ehird95> I was using the VGA driver then
08:30:28 <ehird95> so the VESA driver broke something
08:30:40 <ehird95> fizzie: Well I can't use anything that runs in a dos prompt.
08:30:41 <fizzie> Though that was just for removing the startup path, maybe not for twiddling the actual pif file contents.
08:31:18 <fizzie> Yes, I remember that much.
08:31:33 <fizzie> Was there a special properties dialog for pif files? There might even have been.
08:31:39 <ehird95> memory is auto/not protected; auto; auto; uses hma; auto
08:31:43 <ehird95> not configured for expanded memory
08:31:54 <ehird95> screen is window; default; display toolbar; restore settings on startup;
08:32:18 <ehird95> misc is allow screensaver; no quickedit or exclusive mode; don't always suspend; warn if still active; medium idle sensitivity; fast pasting; all windows shortcut keys
08:32:33 <ehird95> program is MS-DOS Prompt; C:\WINDOWS\command.com; no shortcut key; run in normal window; close on exit
08:32:36 <Rugxulo> turn off "window" and use full-screen if possible
08:32:43 <fizzie> Ah, the whole EMS/XMS mess was also hilarious.
08:32:47 <ehird95> I'll try, but that's kind of annoying.
08:33:19 <ehird95> Rugxulo: normal window/maximized/mninimized
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08:35:38 <ehird95> I like the part where it crashed
08:35:54 <Rugxulo> most didn't ... hence why NT is now prevalent ;-)
08:36:15 <ehird95> haha, that reddit.com was meant to go in opera
08:36:21 <ehird95> I saw the location bar, split out
08:36:27 <ehird95> each pixel had hundreds of pixels around it on my screen
08:36:36 <ehird95> so it was sort of like a weird zooming-in
08:36:41 <ehird95> but i couldn't get it to change
08:36:47 <ehird95> still, it shows that only the graphics are effing up
08:36:58 <Rugxulo> VirtualBox isn't very stable in some ways
08:37:06 <Rugxulo> and its DOS compatibility is weaker than other VMs
08:37:24 <ehird95> please do suggest something better that runs on linux :)
08:37:47 <Rugxulo> dunno, haven't really tried too much on Linux
08:37:53 <Rugxulo> maybe Bochs, but it'll probably be loads slower
08:38:02 <Rugxulo> but it's been improved a lot lately
08:38:07 <ehird95> bochs is possibly the slowest thing that claims to emulate an x86
08:38:14 <ehird95> nobody really knows, though; it's never performed any instructions
08:38:24 <ehird95> (also, its configuration format is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge pain)
08:38:37 <Rugxulo> yes, I also dislike the config crapola
08:38:59 <ehird95> what's windows 95 without rick rolling.
08:39:20 <Rugxulo> so you're just running Win95 for laughs?
08:39:36 <ehird95> yeah. i am kinda tempted to roll on over to ebay and purchase like an X20 or something
08:39:44 <ehird95> really old tiny thinkpad and put win95 on it :P
08:40:03 <Rugxulo> nah, if you want something like that, get a netbook and run DOSEMU or WINE
08:40:07 <ehird95> (9 didn't; I don't remember if I tried 8)
08:40:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: netbooks are shoddy pieces of crap :(
08:40:22 <ehird95> and they lack retro hardware... in its place bad hardware
08:40:22 <Rugxulo> well, so is a used laptop :-P
08:40:32 <ehird95> thinkpads are beautiful sculptures of hardware.
08:40:39 <Rugxulo> if the used laptop actually works, then yes, good
08:40:49 <Rugxulo> but new OSes and old hardware aren't friends (and vice versa)
08:41:10 <ehird95> so then what's the conflict with putting 95 on an old thinkpad, that sounds logical to me :P
08:41:26 <Rugxulo> it's fine if you want to struggle with that, but old hardware often dies
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08:41:51 * Rugxulo bought a Lynx II (made in 1991) in 2004 or so, it only lasted a year, maybe two
08:42:03 <ehird95> there are original model thinkpads still working; many of them
08:42:09 <ehird95> thinkpads are ridiculously sturdy
08:42:14 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just not airtight :-/
08:42:25 <ehird95> i'm just saying that a lot of people get second-hand thinkpads
08:42:27 <Rugxulo> I love retro (more than modern, too), but it's not flawless
08:42:34 <ehird95> and as a rule they don't really break
08:42:38 <ehird95> without active breakingness
08:43:02 <ehird95> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20
08:43:15 <ehird95> (beefy specs for a 95 machine, too...)
08:44:25 <Rugxulo> DOS still doesn't have good (or any, really) drivers for sound, esp. non-SB
08:44:52 <ehird95> i'm sure the x20 can talk soundblaster
08:44:57 <Rugxulo> but the processor looks okay, RAM could be better (or worse even)
08:45:01 <ehird95> Rugxulo: you forgot Gravis :-)
08:45:15 <ehird95> 97 is kinda impossible on win95
08:45:33 <ehird95> problems loading this youtube page
08:45:51 <Rugxulo> I think YouTube upgraded to Flash 9 not too long ago (to many peoples' chagrin)
08:46:12 <Rugxulo> I might be wrong on the version number, but they still aren't "good enough" to FOSS codecs, etc.
08:46:26 <Rugxulo> (although Google did buy some codec developer recently, maybe they'll change)
08:46:47 <Rugxulo> lots of stuff uses Flash, perhaps too much (considering its transitory nature)
08:47:58 <Rugxulo> even my Dad's Mac OS X (10.3.9) laptop's Flash was "too old" to watch some stuff
08:48:21 <ehird95> youtube recommended me to upgrade to flash 10 when i had 9 or 8, i forget which
08:48:30 <ehird95> (although the flash itself didn't work)
08:48:44 <Rugxulo> Flash is a pain to many people
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08:53:56 <Rugxulo> anyways, VMware is reported to work well
08:54:04 <Rugxulo> but I've never bothered trying it
08:54:29 <Rugxulo> boo #nethack, yay ##crawl ;-)
08:55:22 * Sgeo__ is a NetHack person, kind of
08:55:25 <ais523> I do play Crawl a bit too, though
08:55:37 * Rugxulo finds NetHack too hard, too confusing
08:56:01 <ais523> Crawl's decent as a wargame, but it plays rather differently from NetHack
08:56:11 <ais523> I'd say the two are more or less independent in the strategies needed
08:56:37 <Rugxulo> Crawl feels more arcade-like but really needs fairly good strategy
08:56:46 <Rugxulo> and lots of experience ;-)
08:57:27 <Rugxulo> no selling stuff, no need to run to altar to id stuff
08:57:44 <ehird95> ais523: hi, i'm using windows 95.
08:57:44 <Sgeo__> Um... if Windows 95 Plus! introduced IE 1.0, how does ehird95 have 3.0?
08:58:01 <ehird95> Sgeo__: 95 plus! introduced ie 1.0? WTF
08:58:09 <ehird95> ie dates back to win3 days :P
08:58:13 <ais523> I actually liked Win95 at the time
08:58:22 <ehird95> ais523: it's actually pretty good!
08:58:23 <Sgeo__> "This was the first version of Plus! and included Space Cadet Pinball, the Internet Jumpstart Kit (which was the introduction of Internet Explorer 1.0)"
08:58:25 <ais523> in fact, when XP came out I preferred it to XP
08:58:32 <Sgeo__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Plus!#Microsoft_Plus.21_for_Windows_95
08:58:47 <ais523> still do except it isn't compatible with anything
08:58:58 <ehird95> ais523: my favourite part is the GUI; Explorer and its ilk
08:59:02 <ehird95> ais523: it's sort of... crisp
08:59:07 <ehird95> like every pixel was accounted for
08:59:25 <ehird95> ais523: don't say nothing supports it!
08:59:30 <ehird95> Opera 10 runs on it almost entirely perfectly
08:59:31 <ais523> yes, even nowadays I style XP to look like that
08:59:43 <ehird95> win 95's explorer had different menus for instance
08:59:47 <Rugxulo> the only big deal with Win95 was the 32-bit API, the DOS integration, and Plug 'n Play
08:59:51 <ehird95> and i don't think you can make xp open one window for every app
09:00:04 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, I'm talking to you with the latest version of mIRC, while browsing the regular web on regular settings using Opera 10
09:00:17 <Rugxulo> ehird95: don't like Opera's IRC?
09:00:20 <ehird95> (Opera 10 is the latest Opera)
09:00:24 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I used it, but "eh"
09:00:28 <ehird95> Nicer to have it as a separate program.
09:00:31 <ais523> I wonder if that's the reason I still compile new opera apps against Windows 3.1?
09:00:39 <Rugxulo> fun trivia: mIRC was originally freeware!!
09:00:42 <ais523> after all, in theory later versions of windows can still emulate it
09:00:46 <ais523> umm... new windows apps
09:00:51 <ehird95> nobody actually registers it, do they?
09:00:52 <ais523> if and when I write one, which is rare
09:01:02 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, opera 10 really does work perfectly with only a few glitches
09:01:05 <ais523> the exception's if they're 32-bit, in which case I compile against Windows 95
09:01:06 <ehird95> well, I guess not perfectly then
09:01:13 <Rugxulo> ehird95: not with Opera, Chatzilla, ERC, etc. ;-)
09:01:17 <ehird95> it fails to report file sizes and image sizes
09:01:18 <ais523> but Windows XP broke a lot of the compatibility stuff
09:01:19 <ehird95> that's the only thing I've found
09:01:32 <ais523> I suppose that if I use Windows 1 features that were deprecated in 3.1, I shouldn't really expect them to work in XP
09:01:32 <ehird95> and I only have 64MiB of RAM in this VM!
09:01:36 <ais523> (although they work fine in 95!)
09:02:07 <Rugxulo> so once Windows requires (or "recommends") > 3 GB of RAM for actual use, 32-bit is DOA
09:02:18 <ehird95> ais523: I had to skip past a few spam ad surveys on a shady windows-drivers site to get them to give me an old version of the Microsoft IntelliPoint drivers; I don't have a Microsoft mouse, but this enables the scroll-wheel...
09:02:33 <ehird95> (I needed an older version so it didn't depend on a newer IE and also to have less crap on my system)
09:02:36 <ais523> I wonder what driver EULAs are like?
09:02:41 <ais523> I think I may still have one of those on CD
09:02:44 <ehird95> (I could install the newer IE, but *eh*)
09:02:58 <ehird95> (At some point I might reinstall by pirating the floppies instead; that way, IE won't be mandatory.)
09:03:05 <Sgeo__> Docking Station should work on Win95
09:03:14 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Link me up and I'll try.
09:03:17 <ais523> I once created a web page which, if opened in IE 4, would cause Windows 95 or 98 to crash hard
09:03:19 <ehird95> Graphics will probably be too slow to be usable, though.
09:03:22 <Rugxulo> DamnSmallLinux can run in 32 MB of RAM
09:03:26 <ais523> didn't actually put it on the web, though
09:03:30 <ais523> and later versions of IE fixed the bug
09:03:32 <ehird95> ais523: ooh, what's that file:// url or whatever?
09:03:41 <ehird95> Rugxulo: 95 can run with 4MiB and decently with like 16
09:03:52 <Rugxulo> I know, but it ain't free :-(
09:04:01 <ais523> I used a different method, though
09:04:05 <Rugxulo> (and 4 MB might be a bit optimistic ... swapping would be slooooooowwwwwwww)
09:04:06 <ais523> which was hilarious on locked-down computers
09:04:10 <ehird95> admittedly I broke the law
09:04:11 <ais523> as it ended up killing Explorer
09:04:18 <ehird95> well guys, I'm about to try concon
09:04:24 <ais523> meaning: you couldn't do anything, you couldn't log out, etc
09:04:39 <Sgeo__> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13
09:04:41 <ais523> ehird95 just stopped responding to pings
09:05:02 <Rugxulo> why he even wanted to test that ("con/con") is beyond me
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09:05:28 <ais523> trying to refer to c:\con\con
09:05:30 <Sgeo__> con\con to have the effect that it did
09:05:34 <ais523> there's a weird bug in Windows' legacy support
09:05:39 <ais523> basically, DOS has a few special filenames
09:05:42 <Rugxulo> "con" is a reserved word in DOS/Win9x
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09:05:49 <ais523> which, when used with any extensoin, send the file to a device
09:06:03 <Sgeo__> prn? Windows recognizes..
09:06:06 <ehird95> I like how I'm using an overclocker's tool to keep my system fans running low and use less power
09:06:11 <ais523> e.g. if you write to prn.exe, instead it'll go to the printer
09:06:16 <ais523> ehird95: you're underclocking?
09:07:15 <ais523> that exists in UNIX too, cat > myfile.txt
09:07:27 <ais523> ehird and I were discussing QBasic a while ago
09:07:29 <ehird95> ais523: Nope; Windows 95 doesn't run hlt on idle cycles by default, so it always uses the CPU at near-100%. This makes the cooling system work more and uses more power. I'm using a tool called Rain, designed to cool down the system by hogging all the idle cycles with hlt and thus allow more overclocking, to make my system fans less noisy and use less power.
09:07:35 <ais523> I even have a legit copy of it on this computer
09:07:56 <ais523> ehird95: what interrupts the system out of the hlts?
09:07:58 <ehird95> This particular Rain installation is "Optimized for Intel Pentium Pro"; I had a wide range of selection... among ancient processors.
09:08:07 <ehird95> ais523: I think it just does a busyloop
09:08:18 <Sgeo__> ehird95, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13 is the link, but the sysreqs say that it needs IE 4 for networking capabilities
09:08:28 <Rugxulo> "hlt" is the same as "jmp $" but is interrupted by ... an interrupt! ;-)
09:08:37 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Probably for Winsock 2 or something
09:08:57 <ehird95> Well, won't be downloading it from there any time soon.
09:09:35 <Rugxulo> MS' FTP site has tons of old stuff
09:09:38 <Sgeo__> Rugxulo, Creatures Docking Station
09:09:45 <ehird95> winsite.com has apparently died.
09:10:08 <ehird95> Well, not huge enough for a WP article.
09:10:32 <ehird95> Sgeo__: care to link me a working link?
09:11:21 <Rugxulo> what, all this for Docking Station?
09:11:43 <ehird95> I asked for a working link.
09:11:52 <ehird95> You greatly overestimate how much work I have, so far, put into this endeavour.
09:12:06 <Rugxulo> what endeavour? what is the goal?
09:12:23 <ehird95> See if Docking Station works.
09:12:27 <ehird95> ais523: your explanation got cut off
09:12:38 <ehird95> ais523: you stopped talking before you explained why it fails if you refer to con or whatever as a directory :-P
09:13:01 <ais523> I don't think the case of someone using con as a directory was implemented at all
09:13:03 <Sgeo__> It's from a Creatures fansite though
09:13:03 <Sgeo__> http://creatures.treesprite.com/dockingstation_195.exe
09:13:06 <ais523> so the fact you get UB there isn't surprising
09:13:14 <ehird95> Rugxulo: we've established that.
09:13:15 <ais523> Rugxulo: yes, I've been explaining what it was reserved for
09:13:25 <ehird95> ais523: I know the story, I just meant for Sgeo__
09:13:41 <Sgeo__> The other links on http://creatures.treesprite.com/Upgrades5.html#A don't work
09:14:01 <Rugxulo> it's 30 MB, that's why I was skeptical
09:14:06 <ehird95> Got anything with a link faster than a T...0? :-P
09:14:12 <ehird95> Rugxulo: 30MB downloads in like a minute on my connection
09:14:12 <Rugxulo> (esp. since on company sells a service that slims Win98 down to like 8 MB install)
09:14:19 <ehird95> assuming a non-retarded server, which we don't have in this new link
09:14:28 * Rugxulo didn't know if you had fast internet or not
09:14:30 <ehird95> graphical content, sounds... are big
09:14:40 <fizzie> "The Messenger Service is no longer supported from Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008." Wahh, I want my pop-up spam. :/
09:14:42 <Rugxulo> they should've used better compression
09:14:55 <ehird95> 8Mb/s isn't exactly "fast", what with Scandinavia and bordering areas having 50Mb/s as commonplace stuff
09:15:07 <Sgeo__> F U, Fileplanet, for wanting me to register
09:15:10 <Rugxulo> anything is fast compared to dialup
09:15:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: yes, let's just wave the magical wand and get every file under 1MB
09:15:27 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Fileplanet is shit, you have to wait in a queue to download your file
09:15:28 <Rugxulo> no, but typically people are lazy and use horrible compression
09:15:43 <ehird95> 9.4%; I guess this download might be fast enough.
09:15:57 <ehird95> " MB (K\ bytes)" --Opera, attempting to tell me how fast it's downloading
09:16:08 <ehird95> Not *entirely* perfect on 95...
09:16:17 <Rugxulo> (minimal Unicode, if any ...)
09:16:24 <Sgeo__> http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file/fid,17080-order,1-page,1-c,alldownloads/description.html
09:16:54 <Sgeo__> Also, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C
09:17:05 <Rugxulo> sounds like a glorified Tamagotchi
09:19:40 <ais523> MB seems a pretty fast speed
09:20:33 <ehird95> Rugxulo: the Creatures series is nothing like either of those
09:20:52 <ehird95> what's your problem? you've been interestingly critical of it since the first link...
09:21:25 <ehird95> ais523: the block represents the number bigger than infinity.
09:22:15 <ais523> ehird95: oh, to me it's a lightning bolt
09:22:22 <ais523> presumably you can't see it though
09:22:45 <Rugxulo> ehird, not intentionally ... just sounds like a lot of trouble for little gain
09:22:57 <ais523> strangely, it stops being a lightning bolt if I copy-and-paste it elsewhere, and turns into a control-L
09:23:27 <ehird95> Rugxulo: it's clicking a few links, plus the game is amusing for a few minutes
09:23:34 <ehird95> it's no more pointless than any "let's see if this works"
09:24:09 * ehird95 wonders what people used for win 95 development... gotta fix that fitt's law violation...
09:24:14 <fizzie> It's control-L for controlled Lightning.
09:24:23 <fizzie> Here it's a [0012] except in a box.
09:24:27 <Rugxulo> Watcom and MSVC, presumably
09:24:33 <ais523> it looked like that when I copied-and-pasted it elsewhere
09:24:45 <ais523> so I think it's a lightning bolt under Qt, but a box containing [0012] under GTK
09:25:04 <Rugxulo> DJGPP existed well before Cygwin (and subsequently MinGW)
09:25:08 <fizzie> Also that Borland thing.
09:25:43 <ais523> I still have a copy of Borland C++ 4
09:25:51 <ais523> which doesn't really work properly on Windows XP
09:25:56 <ais523> but then it didn't really work properly on Windows 95
09:26:02 <fizzie> I have 4.5 too somewhere.
09:26:11 <Sgeo__> Stupid reason to learn Python: I didn't realize that there were free C/C++ compilers
09:26:12 <ehird95> DJGPP for pure-Win32 development sounds misguided.
09:26:21 <Sgeo__> That's also why I first started to learn Java
09:26:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, no I meant for DOS/DPMI apps (although with third-party RSXNT/DJ you could do Win32)
09:26:32 <fizzie> The full 4.5 version came with some pc magazine.
09:26:53 <ehird95> Right; I'm looking to do Win32. It's gotta be simple to catch all mouseclicks in one pixel of the screen.
09:26:56 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, Python ain't so bad, it's fans LOVE it
09:27:10 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom supports Win32 also (as host or target)
09:27:16 <Sgeo__> Rugxulo, I like Python, but the reason I became interested in it in the first place...
09:27:17 <ehird95> Maybe I'll just have to make an always-on-top, above-taskbar borderless window whose only pixel is transparent, then catch clicks on that.
09:27:22 <fizzie> Visual Studio 6 still works on 95, I think; at least on 98 it does.
09:27:34 <Rugxulo> oh, and you can actually do Win32 stuff in assembly too (see FASMW)
09:27:44 <ehird95> Then it's just a matter of calling whatever function brings up the start menu.
09:27:59 <Rugxulo> but why did Borland 4 have issues?
09:28:21 <fizzie> ehird95: A true Windows developer would do that by synthesizing a mouse click event that clicks around the start button.
09:29:01 <ais523> Rugxulo: most commonly, it would hang in the middle of compilation for no good reason
09:29:01 <ais523> and then you'd have to change bits of things around at random until it didn't
09:29:01 <ais523> also, linking tended to fail on 32-bit programs
09:29:11 <fizzie> Oh, and of course there's always LCC-win32. That was reasonably popular too.
09:29:13 <Rugxulo> was it a DOS or Windows program?
09:29:17 <ehird95> fizzie: Yes, well, that'll fail if you resize the task bar to be invisible with hacks. :P
09:29:17 <ais523> fizzie: I actually did that
09:29:22 <ais523> I mean, simulate mouse clicks and keypresses
09:29:25 <ehird95> although I couldn't code C
09:29:30 <ais523> it was the easiest way, which is saying something
09:29:50 <ais523> ehird95: lcc-win32 is one of the most common talking points over on comp.lang.c
09:29:52 <ehird95> I think I'll call this sanity-restoring program Fitt. I mean, it's like Dr. Watson.
09:30:03 <Rugxulo> ais523: that's only because the developer is prolific
09:30:08 <ehird95> Fitt sits there, waiting for your click, intercepts it, and makes good things happen!
09:30:08 <ais523> basically, it's relatively good, but has some things which are nonstandard for no good reason at all
09:30:16 <ais523> and has various misfeatues
09:30:28 <ais523> it gives you a good idea of what's going on, though
09:30:44 <ehird95> lcc-win32 was quite easy to install, iirc
09:30:45 <ais523> the impression I got was that the development of lcc-win32 was driven by the author's commercial customers
09:30:47 * Rugxulo suggests OpenWatcom, no need of stinkin' MSVCRT.DLL that most compilers (ahem, MinGW) require
09:30:53 <ehird95> just a click-click-click affair, and I believe it has an editor built-in
09:30:58 <ais523> many of who ask for stupid things, and actually get them because they're paying
09:31:00 <ehird95> Rugxulo: is OpenWatcom free or will I have to pirate it?
09:31:27 <ehird95> are the generated executables lean 'n mean or bloated in any way?
09:31:29 <ais523> ehird95: Wikipedia says it's Fitts' law, not Fitt's law
09:31:33 <ehird95> I recall something about watcom+bloated being said earlier
09:31:33 <Rugxulo> it's like 75 MB, but that's with all hosts and targets
09:31:33 <ais523> because the person was called Fitts
09:31:40 <ehird95> ais523: I'll call it Fitts, then
09:31:50 <fizzie> ais523: I saw a very recent example of registering a OCX control by sending a mouse click to start button (it even picked up the absolute screen size to position it "correctly" -- of course fails if the user moves the task bar), then "r" and "regsvr32 ..." and "return" keypress events.
09:31:51 <Rugxulo> but not as small as MinGW only because it (thankfully) rejects the buggy MSVCRT.DLL
09:32:03 <ehird95> I just like the idea of having Fitts himself sit inside my computer, intercepting clicks to make them do the Right Thing.
09:32:03 <Rugxulo> still smaller than DJGPP, though (leaner library)
09:32:22 <ais523> fizzie: wait, it actually went and simulated the keypresses for Start | Run...?
09:32:35 <ais523> that's ridiculous on about 3 levels
09:32:51 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I don't think I even have msvcrt.dll
09:32:53 * Rugxulo saw a nice sample Win32 GUI app in < 1k
09:32:59 <ais523> (the amusing thing, of course, is that the WinExec API call, which is roughly equivalent to system() in Unix, has been deprecated)
09:33:34 <ais523> they probably added a replacement
09:33:35 <Sgeo__> fizzie, maybe it's just an example?
09:33:36 <Rugxulo> MS also deprecated tmpnam etc. I think
09:33:39 <ais523> I haven't heard of that one, it must be newer than my time
09:33:44 <ehird95> http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif lcc-win32 looks happily painless; type 'n click compile 'n done.
09:33:48 <ais523> Rugxulo: but then, they deprecated snprintf
09:33:50 <fizzie> Sgeo__: It was in the internets, I don't remember the story aroudn it.
09:34:02 <Rugxulo> lots of people deprecate lots of stuff for no good reason
09:34:04 <ais523> even more amusingly, their replacement has an extra argument for the size of the buffer
09:34:20 <ais523> I'm not sure if anyone's ever used it with buffer size != maximum characters to print + 1
09:34:48 <ehird95> "We would also like to thank Perforce Software for providing us with a license to use their excellent source code management system"
09:35:07 <ehird95> do I want to use software made by people who think that (a) using Perforce is a good idea and (b) getting a license for Perforce for open source software is a good idea?
09:35:08 <Rugxulo> Linus himself used to use it before he wrote Git
09:35:20 <ehird95> which is about 1,000,000,000,000x better
09:35:22 <ais523> it's Perl that used to use perforce
09:35:24 <ais523> but they changed to git
09:35:31 <fizzie> I seem to remember that there was some controversy (usenet- or otherwise) w.r.t. Jacob Navia, lcc-win32's developer.
09:35:37 <Rugxulo> first of all, use whatever you like, but ... Watcom existed since a long time (late 80s)
09:35:38 <ais523> it's a usenet controversy
09:35:40 <ehird95> still a bad idea to use bitkeeper for linux, but perforce has the added benefit of being really, terribly awfully bad
09:35:47 <Rugxulo> actually, early 80s, but the 386 C/C++ is late 80s
09:36:05 <fizzie> Watcom's a classic, yes; but lcc-win32 is potentially simpler.
09:36:22 <Rugxulo> I don't know of any controversy offhand re: Navia, but I know he's a bit stubborn
09:36:47 <ehird95> aaand here comes docking station
09:37:04 <ehird95> Rugxulo: http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif looks very simple to me, for getting the development done
09:37:08 <ehird95> Sgeo__: it's just the installer :P
09:37:15 <fizzie> Current lcc-win32 says: "Requirements: You need at least Windows 2000, the compiler and command line utiltities will work with older Windows operating systems without any trouble, but the IDE may make use of features not available in older systems and is therefor not supposed to run."
09:37:17 <Rugxulo> LCC-Win32 is only for non-commercial use, OpenWatcom is for anything (so Perforce is moot, IMHO)
09:37:27 <ehird95> I don't want to sell this :P
09:37:32 <Rugxulo> no surprise, those bastards
09:37:43 <ehird95> Sgeo__: "Error 0 running command .\installblast.exe --temp"
09:37:45 <ehird95> will try to extract manually
09:37:48 <ais523> lcc-win32 is shareware, sort-of; it's free to use non-commercially, you can get a commercial licence by paying
09:37:49 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom runs on OS/2, Windows, Linux (beta), DOS :-)
09:38:12 <ehird95> alright then, hook me up with an openwatcom installer link w/ IDE :P
09:38:23 <Rugxulo> ais523: I'm sure it's good, I've just never used it and don't see any need for it
09:38:56 <ehird95> Sgeo__: okay, extracting the installer
09:39:04 <ais523> ah, snprintf_s no longer exists, that makes sense
09:39:12 <ais523> but, sprintf_s strikes me as the most ridiculous function I've ever seen
09:39:14 <Rugxulo> http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/openwatcom/open-watcom-c-win32-1.8.exe
09:39:18 <ais523> it's basically snprintf but worse
09:39:39 <ehird95> "The INSTALLBLAST.EXE file is linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAudodial."
09:39:46 <ehird95> Sgeo__: guess i'd have to upgrade IE
09:40:04 <Rugxulo> it compiles itself, for heaven's sake
09:40:11 <Rugxulo> it's bound to be "good enough"
09:40:11 <ehird95> wtf i'm talking about docking station you doofus
09:40:27 <ais523> also, it has a scary line suggesting that sprintf doesn't check that the format string is valid, whereas sprintf_s does
09:40:29 <fizzie> ehird95: Yes, but you can replace that with Open Watcom. It's "good enough". :p
09:40:33 <ehird95> Sgeo__: or i could just fish out the WinInet.dll from IE 4's installer...
09:40:36 <Sgeo__> ehird95, huh, so the sysreqs lied about what IE4 was needed for?
09:40:48 <ehird95> IE4 is needed for its internet functions.
09:40:57 <Sgeo__> So what is it needed for in the installer?
09:41:07 <ehird95> To register an account or something, I guess.
09:41:41 <ais523> hmm... snprintf can be used to tell you the length of the buffer you need
09:41:46 <ehird95> that watcom link is strangely slow
09:41:50 <ais523> whereas, sprintf_s causes your program to crash if it's too small
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09:42:13 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
09:43:58 <Rugxulo> bah, didn't think that'd work
09:44:10 <ehird95> ow, the blue background of the openwatcom installer
09:45:03 <ehird95> alright, installing into C:\WATCOM
09:45:58 <ehird95> "Setup needs to modify AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS."
09:46:12 <ehird95> quite worrying, considering both were obsolete by windows 95
09:46:23 <ehird95> well, my autoexec is empty and i have no config.sys, so it can't hurt
09:46:26 <Rugxulo> Win95 = MS-DOS 7.0 + Win 4.0
09:46:43 <Rugxulo> it's just more hidden (barely)
09:46:44 <ehird95> config.sys is useless, though, because everything has windows drivers :P
09:46:54 <ehird95> autoexec is useless because, well, not much adds to the PATH I guess
09:46:55 <Rugxulo> they still supported DOS drivers
09:46:59 <ehird95> Rugxulo: annoyances.org agrees with me
09:47:06 <ehird95> but rare is the device with only DOS drivers
09:47:16 <ehird95> and such a device is indeed deprecated, so to speak
09:47:17 <Rugxulo> not that rare, in 1995 at least
09:47:37 <Rugxulo> we still have drivers in 2009 (UIDE) ;-)
09:48:13 <Rugxulo> anyways, autoexec.bat is called by the shell (command.com)
09:48:27 <Rugxulo> P.S. 4DOS is free now, you should grab it
09:48:56 <ehird95> 4DOS is a command shell for windows :P
09:49:10 <Rugxulo> 4DOS works very well under Win9x
09:49:19 <ehird95> totally irrelevant @ ais523
09:49:20 <Rugxulo> 4NT (or whatever it's called now) is for later versions
09:49:23 <fizzie> I think I had some ndis2-drivers-only network card at some point.
09:49:23 <ehird95> for mentioning freedos and dosbox
09:49:37 <ehird95> the single-most annoying feature of windows 9x is that your mouse movement becomes choppy and keys are dropped if your CPU is being used a lot
09:49:38 <Rugxulo> he's just trying to help you ;-)
09:49:44 <ehird95> and even rendering a web page does that to 95...
09:49:58 <Rugxulo> Vista loses keys too, so nothing's perfect
09:50:07 <Sgeo__> ehird95, that's not true of all Windows OSes?
09:50:18 <Rugxulo> probably due to preemptive vs. cooperative
09:50:22 <ehird95> You tried to access the address http://www.jpsoft.com/, which is currently unavailable. Please make sure that the Web address (URL) is correctly spelled and punctuated, then try reloading the page.
09:50:34 <ehird95> Sgeo__: works fine in XP, so probably in NT 4.0 up
09:50:40 <ehird95> maybe starting in 2000, dunno
09:50:49 <Sgeo__> ehird95, actually, it doesn't work fine in XP for me
09:50:52 <ehird95> as in start rendering a page, can't move the mouse
09:51:13 <Rugxulo> believe it or not, VMs aren't perfect
09:51:20 <ehird95> The address you have entered has not been activated.
09:51:38 <Rugxulo> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/user/4dos/
09:52:20 * ais523 reads http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html
09:52:25 <ais523> I disagree with the question 3 bonus
09:52:45 <ais523> with a right-handed mouse, I find hitting the bottom-right corner of the screen really hard as the mouse keeps getting stuck against my hand
09:52:52 <ais523> as in, I can't actually move in that direction far enough
09:53:08 <ehird95> ais523: fitts' law sort of assumes you're not putting your mouse on a cliff with your hand bent over backwards
09:53:17 <ehird95> I know that's an exaggeration, but it concerns a mouse held reasonably, on a decent surface
09:53:23 <ais523> also, I thought the answer "the pixel under the cursor" couldn't be given because you didn't know exactly where the cursor was
09:53:35 <ais523> ehird95: I rest my wrist on the table when using a mouse
09:53:45 <ais523> I have to move it in order to be able to move it a long distance down and right
09:53:48 <ais523> but it's good for other directions
09:54:28 <ehird95> Rugxulo: do I need 4dos800 or 4dos800patches?
09:54:49 <ehird95> also, this is kind of pointless; I can't use the ms dos window, remember?
09:55:23 <ais523> ehird95: what goes wrong when you try?
09:55:40 <Rugxulo> screen goes insane, hard reset needed (probably a VirtualBox bug)
09:56:03 <ehird95> only happens with vesa driver, not vga, iirc
09:56:13 <ehird95> (the vesa driver is a third-party thingamajic)
09:56:54 <ehird95> if anyone knows any vesa drivers for windows that support high resolutions (like 1280x1024), that'd be great :P
09:57:11 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
09:57:32 <Rugxulo> any VESA should support that, probably just another buggy implementation :-/
09:57:44 <ehird95> The actual VESA driver is solid
09:57:50 <ehird95> and can support such high resolutions
09:58:03 <ehird95> but it probably triggers a vbox bug.
09:58:06 <fizzie> Maybe you should port the VirtualBox guest additions to the 9x series, now that you have the Watcom there and all.
09:58:13 <ehird95> http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm
09:58:17 <Rugxulo> like I said, VBox has various bugs (esp. for older 16-bit-ish OSes)
09:58:23 * Sgeo__ needs to go to sleep a few hours ago
09:58:25 <ehird95> fizzie: Good idea. I'll do that right after I stick my head in a blender :P
09:58:32 <ehird95> Rugxulo: no alternative for me as far as I can tell
09:58:40 <ehird95> open watcom adds two menus
09:58:44 <ehird95> one for programs, one for help
09:58:55 <Rugxulo> you can rearrange / edit those
09:58:59 <Rugxulo> I wouldn't worry about it though
09:59:00 <ehird95> wow that's a lot of menu items
09:59:11 <Rugxulo> (actually, you could've just "unzipped" the .EXE as it's just a sfx)
09:59:24 <ehird95> ok, this IDE is *seriously* 16-bit
09:59:37 <ehird95> right down to using that win 3 font
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10:00:43 <ehird95> anyone know any vesa drivers for windows?
10:00:58 <Rugxulo> Bear Windows didn't have one?
10:02:05 <fizzie> ehird95: Did you try the "obsolete" "MANUAL" VirtualBox-specific build of that vbe9x you linked to?
10:02:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: That's what I'm using...
10:02:37 <ehird95> fizzie: The VirtualBox forums guide to 9x says that the VBox-specific one actually "has issues".
10:02:51 <ehird95> I might, though, if there's no other vesa drivers for 9x.
10:03:35 <fizzie> Scitech Display Doctor might have had some video-drivery things in the latest releases, though I'm not sure whether it overlapped at all with 9x.
10:03:39 <Rugxulo> isn't there a QEMU for Mac (called "Q" or something)?
10:03:58 <Rugxulo> maybe it works better (since VirtualBox is just a heavily-modified QEMU with a GUI)
10:04:15 <Rugxulo> VESA is part of the BIOS, not part of the OS
10:04:41 <Rugxulo> and I think you mean Univbe
10:05:13 <fizzie> Rugxulo: It was renamed Scitech Display Doctor, and I thought it acquired some display-drivery things later; it used to be just "provide the VESA bios functions for non-vesa-supporting cards" when it was called univbe.
10:05:38 <fizzie> Or that's the feeling I got; I didn't really follow the development of it later.
10:05:44 <Rugxulo> ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/graph/uvbe51a.zip
10:05:59 <Rugxulo> I don't know, I think SDD had Univbe in it, not sure
10:06:21 <fizzie> "In version 5.2, it was renamed to Scitech Display Doctor. However, UniVBE remained to be the name used for the actual driver."
10:06:48 <fizzie> "Version 6.5 introduced the ability to use Scitech Display Doctor as wrapper video driver." I think that's what I was thinking about, though I'm not quite sure what a "wrapper video driver" exactly is.
10:07:40 <Rugxulo> dunno, I guess to make Windows use a higher-level API to behind the scenes access BIOS interrupts
10:07:41 <fizzie> "SciTech Display Doctor includes the only universal Windows 95 display driver. SciTech Display Doctor is compatible with over 250different graphics chips. If you have ever struggled with display drivers or experienced problems like slow display speeds or system crashes, SciTech Display Doctor is the solution you need."
10:07:44 <ehird95> I've heard of Scitech Display Doctor in relation to this stuff, I think.
10:07:59 <Rugxulo> QEMU is indeed slow ... does KQemu not work on Mac OS X?
10:08:23 <ehird95> And I guess it might, but still. I have this mental image of QEMU = dog slow.
10:08:43 <Rugxulo> VBox uses some JIT stuff to make it lots faster
10:08:53 <fizzie> You can find sdd6.53 in http://download.chip.eu/en/SciTech-Display-Doctor-6.53_35301.html# -- it seems to do the download without registration there if you just click enough.
10:08:56 <ehird95> iMacs are x86 machines, you know.
10:09:00 <ehird95> They just use EFI instead of BIOS.
10:10:08 <fizzie> "For better graphic [in VirtualBox] in WinDOS you can install scitech display doctor 7." Well, someone suggests that, anyway.
10:10:52 <ehird95> I'ma download it with ma meggabits.
10:10:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure if 6.53 works as well; it was legally available from their FTP at some point, which might not have been the case with 7.
10:11:17 <Rugxulo> their FTP site seems kaput (according to Wikipedia and my own attempt just now)
10:11:18 <fizzie> I'm sure you could find 7 too from the interwebs, though.
10:11:33 <Rugxulo> I think 5.x worked better with older cards
10:11:34 <ehird95> http://majorgeeks.com/SciTech_Display_Doctor_d382.html How about a BETA?!!!!1111
10:11:45 <ehird95> This card is going to show up as generic to anything.
10:11:54 <ehird95> Since it's just VirtualBox's fake card.
10:12:06 <fizzie> Yes, but I'm not sure 5.x had the Win95 video driver parts; 6.53 should have them, maybe.
10:13:01 <Rugxulo> "Bing cashback" ... man they push too hard :-P
10:13:17 * Rugxulo is waiting for the day, real soon now, when XBox 360 is "obsolete"
10:13:26 <ais523> what's next? the xbox 719?
10:13:33 <ehird95> Watcom's dialog editor seems quite nice for designing, say, an option thingy.
10:13:41 <ehird95> I wonder if I can be bothered to combine those two menus.
10:13:51 <Rugxulo> it was all a marketing gimmick to offset dumb customers saying "wow, PS3 sounds better than Xbox2" (allegedly)
10:13:58 <fizzie> ais523: The xbox 129600, maybe.
10:14:24 <ehird95> Gah, I hate Windows installers that set their own backdrop and hide everything else.
10:14:33 <Rugxulo> XBox4 (when it's really XBox 3.1)
10:14:36 <fizzie> "We've jumped one extra-major version".
10:14:52 <fizzie> Though maybe the "why box" doesn't sound so good.
10:15:00 <ehird95> Lawl, it used the internet to CHECK FOR AN UPDATE in the installer; ran into a 320 moved temporarily, probably squatted.
10:15:00 <fizzie> Still, if Nintendo can run with Wii...
10:15:25 * Rugxulo remembers all the perverted jokes for days after that ...
10:15:33 <fizzie> The power glove, it's so bad. (I get that connotation every time someone says "bad".)
10:15:53 <ehird95> it will operate for 21 days and give a reminder mesage for 10 seconds each time my computer boots
10:15:56 <ehird95> although hitting a key will skip that
10:15:57 <ais523> ehird95: how did it react?
10:15:57 <fizzie> Since the context was "Nintendo", it sounded appropriate this time.
10:15:57 <Rugxulo> SNES lightgun! SNES mouse!
10:16:11 <fizzie> SciTech Display Doctor 6.53
10:16:11 <fizzie> Supports: Windows and DOS.
10:16:12 <fizzie> Reg Code: 00000-173D626E-02002
10:16:12 <fizzie> Full Name: 6.x Free Edition
10:16:20 <ehird95> That was my next question!
10:16:21 <ais523> incidentally, how did the limited-time shareware programs react to being uninstalled and reinstalled?
10:16:38 <ehird95> *ais523 has a heart attack from fizzie's flagrant violation of the law*
10:16:47 <ehird95> ais523: they buried it in the registry or sth
10:16:48 <fizzie> ehird95: That's directly from Scitech, you know.
10:17:05 <Rugxulo> yeah, they don't sell it anymore
10:17:07 <ais523> surely pirates would just write a registry-diffing program, or something?
10:17:14 <fizzie> And yes, quite many did try to leave all kinds of droppings around the file system and registry.
10:17:21 <Rugxulo> pirates will (and do) crack anything and everything
10:17:36 <ais523> yes, I know it's pointless trying to stop it
10:17:39 <Rugxulo> even (rarely) for actually good reasons ;-)
10:17:56 <ais523> IMO it's pointless putting DRM on things in the first place, because it only hurts legit users
10:18:05 <ais523> after all, pirates can run it whatever you do...
10:18:06 <ehird95> If you don't consider copyright legitimate, then piracy is the obvious thing to do if you're bored
10:18:14 <ehird95> well, if you have the time, rather
10:18:18 <ehird95> and by piracy i meant cracking
10:18:35 <fizzie> Most of those actual "keep track of registry and disk changes for cleaning up after lazy uninstallers" have a side effect of accidentally breaking that "DRM".
10:18:37 <Rugxulo> we're spoiled with free software nowadays, though
10:19:03 <ehird95> the easiest way to get a pirated application circulating is to buy it and distribute the license key
10:19:08 <ehird95> I'm not sure how common that is, though
10:19:09 <ais523> fizzie: my favoured method for breaking that sort of DRM is to use Wine
10:19:11 <fizzie> ehird95: Are you saying no just to be negative? </eliza>
10:19:24 -!- ehird95 has quit.
10:19:27 <Rugxulo> "and how does that make you feel?"
10:19:36 <Rugxulo> "and you think shut up you suck because of why?"
10:20:00 <Rugxulo> anybody remember Dr. Sbaitso? ;-)
10:21:00 <fizzie> "Is it because of the people you hang around with that you say legally imposed culture reduction is cabbage brained?" (courtesy of M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead)
10:21:35 <Rugxulo> heh, they removed yow.lines in latest versions due to copyright (ironically)
10:22:01 <Rugxulo> yeah, lots of Zippy the Pinhead sales out there (not)
10:22:59 <fizzie> "<fizzie> ehird95: Areware pround with that was all the people younded appropriate this timposed culturee Edit was all the perverted distribute the law*" (courtesy of copy-paste and M-x dissociated-press).
10:23:23 <fizzie> "pround" is a nice word, it should have a meaning.
10:23:34 <fizzie> "A combination of the english words "Proud" and "Fond". Often used when a sense of joyous ecstacy overcomes your ability to comprehend spacing between words resulting the the binding the the afformentioned base words."
10:24:12 <fizzie> Well, that was from the urban dictionary, so maybe it's not all that established.
10:24:39 <fizzie> Quite a lot of the results seem to be just misspellings of proud.
10:25:23 <Rugxulo> heh, yeah, I wouldn't trust Urban Dictionary
10:25:32 * Rugxulo never heard of "pround", at least
10:25:32 -!- ehird95 has joined.
10:25:46 <Rugxulo> who knows, though, maybe Shakespeare used it
10:25:50 <ehird95> no supported vga chip found, waah, i'm a retarded driver of retardedness
10:26:39 <ehird95> it has a list of chips and shit
10:29:10 <Rugxulo> VESA itself is the standard, but all the behind-the-scenes stuff is non-standard
10:29:44 <ehird95> the bearwindows stuff works mostly :P
10:30:13 <fizzie> Yes, UniVBE originally was written to provide standards-compatible VESA support for specific video cards. I really did think SDD, when they added the "use directly as a Win9x driver", also added the option to use that driver as a generic VESA thing.
10:30:53 <ehird95> anyone know how to remove a windows control panel btw?
10:31:21 <ais523> back in Windows 3.1 I think you could just delete the file from the directory and it would work
10:31:27 <ais523> I have no idea if that still works, nor where the directory is
10:31:33 <Rugxulo> remove what exactly? the process? file? menu?
10:32:00 <Rugxulo> panel under Control Panel?
10:32:54 <Rugxulo> then no easy way (that I know of)
10:33:00 <fizzie> Weren't those just .cpl files? Or was that win3.1?
10:33:20 <fizzie> Maybe there was some sort of registry registration for them.
10:33:31 <fizzie> I'm sure you can find some tweakery programs from the interwebs to do it.
10:33:52 <fizzie> Qemu emulates three different video cards -- "Cirrus Logic GD5446 Video card. All Windows versions starting from Windows 95 should recognize and use this graphic card" by default, alternatively "Standard VGA card with Bochs VBE extensions" (for winxp vesa-2 driver) or "VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter" -- it's a bit funny that virtualbox does only their own.
10:33:52 <Rugxulo> just leave it, it's not hurting anything is it?
10:34:19 <ehird95> yes it is, it's some software licensing pay-trial-extort bullshit and I want it gone...
10:34:23 <ais523> Rugxulo: if you knew ehird, you wouldn't say that
10:34:42 -!- ehird95 has quit.
10:35:14 <Rugxulo> all this just to run Creatures whatever?
10:35:41 * Rugxulo ain't knocking it, just seems a bit painful
10:37:00 -!- Asztal has joined.
10:37:40 -!- ehird95 has joined.
10:37:48 <ehird95> right, back to bearwindows.
10:37:53 <fizzie> ehird95: I think TweakUI actually has a control-panel-icon-destroyomator.
10:38:41 <fizzie> Just removing the .cpl file might still work, that's mentioned on one page.
10:40:43 <Rugxulo> I'm not sure it was ever meant to be uninstalled
10:41:59 <fizzie> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000136.htm says you can, though.
10:43:00 <fizzie> Of course it removes just the control panel tab, nothing else the program might've installed.
10:53:59 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
11:05:47 <ehird95> you should be able to install 95 and then replace the kernel with nt 4, right
11:06:57 <fizzie> Maybe in the abstract sense of "should in a perfect world".
11:07:24 <fizzie> I put the whole M-x dissociated-press result to pastebin, since there were some pretty funny bits in it: http://pastebin.com/m40fba1a0
11:07:54 <fizzie> "negatime shareware" sounds very hi-tech, for example.
11:08:16 <ehird95> "xp and later versions" wrt tweakui
11:08:53 <fizzie> Huh? You obviously want the PowerToys'95 set, incl. TweakUI.
11:09:32 <ehird95> Microsoft Windows XP and later revisions of Windows users can easily enable and remove Control Panel icons with the TweakUI program.
11:09:56 <fizzie> Ah. Well, just removes the .cpl, it's listed on that page too.
11:12:03 -!- ehird95_ has joined.
11:12:03 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:12:12 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95.
11:13:15 <fizzie> According to screenshots tweakui 1.33 (which is 9x still) does have a "control panel" tab, but I can't find a screenshot of the contents of the tab, so I don't know what it can do.
11:13:32 -!- ais523_ has joined.
11:13:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:14:08 <ehird95> command prompts still fail
11:14:14 <ehird95> anyone know about any _generic_ windows vesa driver?
11:14:49 <ais523_> I'm not sure if there is one
11:14:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
11:16:37 <ais523> usability fail: Evolution changes its icon when I switch between inbox and calendar modes
11:16:38 <ehird95> http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm
11:16:46 <ehird95> ais523: Evolution is one gigantic usability fail
11:16:59 <ais523> really? it's the most just-works of any email client I've ever seen
11:17:13 <ais523> Thunderbird feels clunky after using it, Outlook feels clunky regardless of what else I've been using
11:17:22 <ehird95> It's like Outlook, except more enterprisey and more "unique" (i.e. inconsistent with everything else)
11:17:46 <ais523> hmm... maybe I prefer the Evolution way of doing things, then
11:17:58 <ais523> if everything else does the same thing and Evolution does something different, that would explain a lot
11:18:18 <ehird95> Evolution is, at least, very un-GNOME I'm sure you can agree.
11:18:31 <ehird95> For one, it has like 5 applications in one (calendar, tasks, email, ...)
11:18:40 <ehird95> For two, its preferences pane is fucking mammoth!
11:18:47 <ais523> this system feels like it was built around Evolution
11:18:49 <ehird95> For three, its UI is complicated
11:18:52 <ais523> as opposed to Evolution being added into it
11:18:59 <ehird95> For four, it doesn't really feel native
11:19:03 <ehird95> Evolution is part of GNOME
11:19:16 <ais523> ehird95: most of the things in the DE seem to integrate with it
11:19:23 <ehird95> Oh, they talk together, sure.
11:19:28 <ehird95> But Evolution itself does not feel GNOME.
11:19:36 <ais523> you're right, it doesn't
11:19:40 <ais523> it doesn't feel KDE either, though
11:19:43 <ehird95> That's why I dislike people calling Evolution integrated; it's not integrated in the way you really feel.
11:19:44 <ais523> it's something of its own
11:19:58 <ehird95> it's GNOME, uncanny valley, turn left at preferences street
11:20:14 <ais523> hmm... Firefox would be a good comparison
11:20:22 <ais523> that isn't particularly gnomish either, and has lots of preferences
11:21:08 <ais523> also, they're both very good at persistency
11:21:12 <ais523> which is one of Gnome's strong points
11:21:20 <ais523> (ironically, Firefox > Evolution at persistency)
11:22:41 <ais523> yay, it had already been reported
11:22:51 <ais523> and fixed in karmic, wontfix in jaunty-proposed
11:22:59 -!- linf has joined.
11:23:19 <ais523> (I'm guessing, don't know for certain...)
11:23:52 <linf> HELLO WORLD :-D
11:24:07 <ais523> but out of all the Russian people called Nikita, one of them is a lot more likely to come to this channel than the others
11:25:23 <linf> ais523: pochemu?
11:26:33 <ais523> just based on what's happened in the past
11:26:39 <linf> I'll let you learn English, and I'll Russian
11:27:57 <ais523> no, just relying on whois data
11:28:20 <ais523> when I see an unusual nick in here, I try to work out if it's someone new, or otherwise, who it is
11:29:19 <linf> My nickname is unusual?
11:29:52 <ais523> well, not usually in this channel
11:31:02 -!- ehird95_ has joined.
11:31:06 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird.
11:31:17 <ehird> and that, ais523, is why i want a new graphics driver :P
11:32:04 <ehird> when a dos program takes focus
11:32:12 <ehird> graphics go all weird
11:32:16 <ehird> might be virtualbox bug
11:32:19 <ehird> but it still occurs
11:32:34 * ehird waits for ehird95 to die
11:33:34 <ais523> the perils of unregistered nicks
11:34:07 <ehird> i live dangerously, god damn
11:34:08 <linf> ehird: privet =)))
11:34:33 <ehird> all of a sudden the minimize/maximize animations are really slow...
11:34:59 <linf> ais523: my info says that I am Nikita?
11:35:12 <ais523> yes, it's your username
11:35:16 <ais523> as opposed to your nick, which is linf
11:35:30 <ais523> IRC usernames are more or less irrelevant nowadays, tbg
11:35:56 <fizzie> And your real name is "purple"; coincidentally, x-chat's rainbow-colors-for-nicks thing has allocated a reasonably purple color for the nick, too.
11:36:25 <linf> ais523: if not written, that I am Nikita, how do you know that I am Nikita?
11:36:38 <ais523> well, you could be lying
11:36:45 <ais523> but your client /thinks/ you are Nikita, somewhere
11:37:21 <linf> My client - a psychic =)))
11:37:35 <ais523> it could be your username on your own computer
11:37:40 <ais523> that's a common way to determine what username to use on IRC
11:37:53 <ais523> and people often use their real name for that
11:37:54 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:38:22 <linf> So who wants to have a friend in Russia? For me, it is important to better learn English
11:39:01 <linf> I do not hide ...
11:39:12 -!- ehird95 has joined.
11:39:18 <linf> ais523: what is your name?
11:39:31 <ais523> according to my whois data, it's hidden
11:39:39 <ais523> and presumably I should trust it on that
11:39:55 <ais523> I mean, forgetting who I was would be embarassing...
11:40:39 <linf> I did not understand nothing ... I do not know very well English
11:40:58 <ais523> there's a channel ##english on Freenode to help people learn English
11:41:48 <Slereah_> I are having many english speakings thanking much
11:41:49 <linf> but I want to talk on the topic and teach the esoteric
11:42:31 <ehird95> linf: we're not about esoterica
11:42:36 <ehird95> just esoteric programming languages
11:43:16 <Slereah_> I PUT ON MY WIZARD ROBE AND HAT
11:43:17 <ehird95> freenode is mostly about technology
11:43:28 <linf> Russian music what do you know?
11:43:34 <Slereah_> Hooks for feet... Eyes... Made of wood!
11:43:41 <ehird95> Russian music, now there's a topic.
11:43:51 <ehird95> That's not esoterica nor esolangs. Has anyone come in here for russian music before?
11:44:39 <linf> not understand
11:44:42 <ehird95> linf: this isn't the channel for you. sorry
11:45:01 <fizzie> ais523: You mean (this is obviously not my real name) is not actually your real name? "What."
11:45:37 <linf> sad... Why someone does not like Russian =(((
11:46:42 <ehird95> we didn't actually say that.
11:47:43 <linf> I just want interesting international communication! :-[
11:51:10 -!- ehird95 has changed nick to jioretjoi5.
11:52:33 -!- jioretjoi5 has changed nick to ehird95.
11:52:45 <ehird95> hey, i just realised my name is appropriate in more ways than one
11:53:08 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:54:04 <ehird95> 0.01 points for recognizing why
11:58:27 <ais523> hmm... were you born in 1995?
11:59:33 <ehird95> Slereah_: first one is "am using" which was the original intention
12:00:13 <fizzie> Aww, I didn't have time for my guess: you create a similar combustion results than a 95 % iso-octane / 5 % heptane fuel mixture.
12:00:50 <ehird95> Windows 95 should have a mouse-updater in the kernel so that you never have a laggy mouse. :P
12:02:16 <ehird95> grr... there really needs to be something like task manager in 2000
12:02:22 <linf> Windows 95 =-O
12:02:24 <ehird95> so that you can see what processes are making your system lag
12:02:25 <ais523> oh, for a moment I thought you meant mouse driver updates in the kernel
12:03:47 <linf> ehird95: i love you frend
12:04:39 <fizzie> fungot: And which OS do you use?
12:04:40 <fungot> fizzie: i ask fnord about africa) is an artifact of a particular form? i lack unicode terminals. :) you guys always have something to match ( a b)) using curried terms. how might you write the rest of her sf is good, i surely have *that* ;p
12:05:11 -!- Pthing has joined.
12:06:06 <ais523> ugh, the idea of trying to learn English from fungot has just crossed my mind
12:06:07 <fungot> ais523: fizzie'll be there to make it print out _every_ replacement operation, and then some
12:06:23 <ais523> wow, that was... really in-context, and made sense
12:06:30 <ais523> and was even a plausible reply to my comment
12:06:35 <ehird95> it only made some sort of sense, mind
12:06:38 <ais523> that's one of the best fungot responses ever
12:06:38 <fungot> ais523: i'll hang around here. been poking through the wiki
12:06:56 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
12:06:57 <ehird95> he might get ideas about rewriting himself...
12:06:58 <linf> ааааааааааааааааааааааааааааааа
12:07:04 <ehird95> don't do that fungot, mmkay?
12:07:06 <fungot> ehird95: it will be too much. i just got linked to " t" without the leading dot as one of the dirs in load-path, after adding an autoload and the filename association, i got all excited about going to sleep
12:07:26 <ehird95> yeah, messing with drugs like that can mess you up, who gets excited about sleeping?
12:07:28 <fungot> ehird95: that's right. it was in this channel
12:07:39 <ehird95> at least you could have done it in private...
12:07:47 <fizzie> Maybe I should start selling the code to various schools as a tool for learning English.
12:07:48 <ehird95> ais523: are we sure fungot hasn't actually spontaneously emerged as a strong AI?
12:07:49 <fungot> ehird95: i don't even want to know me!!! so that will probably work better
12:07:49 <ais523> why isn't HackEgo here? I want to qdb that fungot comment...
12:07:49 <fungot> ais523: that method shouldn't be underestimated though, just sign on and listen to some. i just wanted to ping ehird, as i said
12:08:47 <ais523> "i don't even want to know me!!!" is a good quote too, but potentially verbatim
12:09:04 <fizzie> It is being done using the magic of YOUR BRAIN, which can make topical out of just about anything.
12:09:17 <ais523> sometimes is more topical than other times
12:10:29 <ehird95> ais523: well, it referred to rewriting itself in another language as too much and described a horrific linker accident where, after adding an entry to the linker autoload path and setting up a file association its brain chemistry made it excited about going to sleep, and then mentioned that it was in this chnnel.
12:10:30 <linf> but still I love Madonna
12:10:38 <ehird95> that's remarkably coherent, even for fungot :P
12:10:39 <fungot> ehird95: you should have called it ++c c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em), when a context of an interpreter
12:10:51 <ehird95> that's a really bad name, fungot.
12:10:52 <fungot> ehird95: when tiny-clos allocates a generic function, it's a fnord
12:11:08 * ehird95 resists the urge to fork tiny-clos and rewrite it to call them fnords
12:11:10 <ais523> you're right, that's an /incredibly/ bad name
12:11:14 <ais523> anyone want to add it to esolang/
12:11:25 <ehird95> I can't even tell what the name is
12:11:34 <ehird95> ++cc c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em)?
12:11:42 <ais523> that was my first guess
12:11:59 <fizzie> I should fix the whitespacing, though.
12:12:02 <ehird95> fungot's Scheme is so very stylistic; he loves putting that space after the opening paren.
12:12:03 <fungot> ehird95: is on the infinite machine; the same solution.
12:12:16 <ehird95> fungot: sweet, I love infinity machines!
12:12:16 <fungot> ehird95: and i'll do the next excersise... thx for the ref :) thanks
12:12:25 <ehird95> ...but I want to use it, fungot :|
12:13:45 <fizzie> Next time I need a name for a project, I'll just go http://pastebin.com/m20f7a77c
12:14:14 <fizzie> "++c, tail of the stream maker" has a nice ring to it.
12:14:20 <ehird95> allocates one (bad) is a silly name.
12:14:32 <ehird95> [[you should have called it sins: sins is not scheme at all is useful. each implementation does things slightly differently the latter is nonstandard, but most implementations have "real" programming language.]]
12:15:11 <ehird95> "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would act like minion does in lisp it does wiki lookups" :D
12:15:33 <ehird95> "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would run infinitely slowly or so. was there ever a gigantic hoax in computer science?" yes, infinitely slow pink fluffy ponies
12:17:41 <fizzie> It's a bit too fixated on pink fluffy ponies (and whose fault is that, eh?) and that silly "++c c-- --c" name.
12:21:51 <ehird95> I'd better learn how to work the Open Watcom IDE.
12:22:08 <ehird95> ais523: have you ever used it? you seem like the type to
12:22:30 <ais523> I had heard of it, but no more
12:22:35 <ais523> I /am/ probably the type to, just haven't
12:23:09 <ehird95> I haven't yet managed to create and edit a file in a project...
12:24:21 <fizzie> Another fungot gem: "believes in santa, or possibly codepoints."
12:24:21 <fungot> fizzie: i noticed." i was trying to use lambda yet? it's s'posed to
12:24:38 <fizzie> Yes, often when kids learn santa isn't real, they start to believe in codepoints instead.
12:24:57 <ehird95> ais523: the programs have a greyed out help menu item, and a separate top-level start menu folder for just the help books...
12:25:10 <ais523> which windows help format?
12:25:29 <ais523> but as we're talking windows 95, it'll either be winhelp (or winhlp32), or chm
12:26:55 <ehird95> it's formatted, but not htmlcrap
12:28:46 <fizzie> August 1997 HTML Help 1.0 (HH 1.0) was released with Internet Explorer 4.
12:28:46 <fizzie> February 1998 HTML Help 1.1a shipped with Windows 98.
12:29:37 <fizzie> Well, yes. A bit newer than your '95.
12:30:31 -!- linf has left (?).
12:30:54 <fizzie> What are they doing nowadays? Wikipedia speaks about something called "Microsoft Help 2" with .hxs files, and an upcoming "Microsoft Help 3" where a .mshc file is just a renamed zip with XHTML 1.x and images/other-data inside.
12:31:07 <ehird95> Just whatever they had in XP.
12:31:18 <ehird95> With the question/answer checkboxes "wizard" troubleshooters; all useless.
12:32:35 <fizzie> "In 2008 Microsoft relented and released a download of WinHlp32.exe for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607". I like the use of the word "relent" there.
12:33:49 <ais523> they should just use Info format
12:35:34 <ais523> what's wrong with this channel? I say something obviously ridiculous and nobody responds...
12:36:33 <ehird95> well, I had mIRC minimized to tray and hadn't hit it for a few minutes
12:37:15 <fizzie> I got lost in the Texinfo reference manual. :p
12:38:16 <Leonidas> I haven't ever seen a .hxs file
12:38:47 <Leonidas> even .chm seems to be loosing on the ebookz market to pdf.
12:40:03 <fizzie> .hxs files are used in the modern (.NET and later) Visual Studio help system.
12:40:16 <fizzie> They look quite messy, though it might be just that the help system is so large.
12:40:31 <Leonidas> ok, so i stumbled upon them without knowing.
12:40:50 <fizzie> "Microsoft Help 2.x is the help engine used in Microsoft Visual Studio 2002/2003/2005/2008 and Office 2007."
12:41:07 <Leonidas> well, the online MSDN also looks messy, I guess thats mostly a Microsoft-thing
12:41:53 <Leonidas> Microsoft has a talent for hiding good documentation in the most awkward places.
12:44:31 <ais523> MSDN also has a talent for self-contradiction
12:44:41 <ais523> because searching it keeps finding the wrong version of the API, or whatever
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13:02:49 <fizzie> Says something about the priorities of people: things have started to collect in the "fremantle-extras" Maemo 5 repository; discounting supporting libraries and such, there are 6 real packages; and one of them is the robotfindskitten game.
13:03:54 <fizzie> Obviously http://rfk.garage.maemo.org/ is what really needs to be there before the official device launch.
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13:15:02 <ehird95> yay, I've added Fitts.c to the project C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.wpj
13:15:10 <ehird95> and am now editing C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.c in the Wacom editor
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14:33:34 <oklopol> how's your internet today, internet folk
14:34:47 <oklopol> have i mentioned i hate calculus
14:35:31 <oklopol> of course, this time i hate it because integration is too hard, i suppose it's usually the other way around
14:36:48 <ais523> integration is one of those things that's impossible in general
14:36:50 <ais523> like comparing functions
14:37:19 <oklopol> i know; that's sort of the kind of stuff i know.
14:38:25 <fizzie> "The other way around", i.e. integration is too hard because you hate calculus?
14:38:46 <oklopol> anyway it's an iterated integral, integrating by either variable using the wolfram thingie gives an incomprehensible megaexpression
14:39:19 <oklopol> fizzie: almost; usually because it's too easy
14:39:50 <oklopol> so "for the opposite reason" or something to that bend might've been more diple.
14:39:55 <ais523> I can well imagine oklopol's hatred of something making it more difficult
14:40:00 <ais523> as you can't then ask oklopol for help
14:40:09 <ais523> anyway, it seems that we have an esolang name language clash
14:40:18 <ais523> as Keymaker created an esolang also called Clue
14:40:43 <oklopol> let's hope i keep this speed up at uni so i don't have time for esolangs :P
14:41:01 <fizzie> Either one of you could maybe add a diacritic somewhere.
14:41:43 <oklopol> wait that' looks like a c implementation of lua
14:42:04 <ais523> I don't see why we can't have two unrelated esolangs with exactly the same name
14:42:08 <fizzie> (It's an "e" with a combining inverted double arch below.)
14:42:11 <ais523> then we can have Clue (disambiguation)
14:42:30 <ais523> Esolang needs a dab page, it's feeling kind-of lonely without one
14:43:09 <fizzie> ais523: Having two languages with identical names will cause the Universe algorithm to become confusing, and it might accidentally merge the languages (and their authors) into a single entity.
14:43:24 <fizzie> s/confusing/confused/; it is confusing already.
14:44:02 <ais523> merging oklopol and Keymaker together could have rather weird results
14:44:24 <fizzie> Run, it's the oklomaker!
14:44:46 <ais523> wow, a sort of oklo factory would be worrying
14:45:03 <ais523> the whole world would be full of oklopols and oklofoks and oklojots and whatever
14:45:36 <ais523> and the average IQ would go massively over 100 and the contradiction would cause everything to become true
14:46:03 <oklopol> stop calling me intelligent, it's confusing :D
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14:47:10 <oklopol> yay only one month till universality proofs
14:47:17 <ais523> there's no reason you can't be both intelligent /and/ confused
14:47:31 <oklopol> probably more undecidability than universality
14:49:13 <oklopol> i like to think of computability theory as the art of ruining puzzles for mathematicians
14:50:09 <fizzie> Maybe I should stick some sort of PCFG babble-generator into fungot; that would mean more well-structured output, and the generation part is still really very simple, although not quite so trivial as with the current n-gram model.
14:50:09 <fungot> fizzie: i went through every book i could find
14:50:22 <fizzie> fungot: And still you can't really speak.
14:50:22 <fungot> fizzie: the helpful article might be a deliberate typo or someone has vandalized the text. perhaps the cards have jumpers to set the stack size
14:51:08 <oklopol> "the helpful article might be a deliberate typo"
14:51:22 <fungot> FireFly: thank you, that budapest national anthem!!! wrong channel :)
14:52:01 <fizzie> I'd need either POS-tagged corpora or a well-working tagger to get training data for that, though.
14:52:53 <oklopol> how can an article be a deliberate typo, i mean i suppose an article could be considered a typo if it was accidentally written, and a typo could be considered deliberate if it looked like it was an accident but wasn't
14:53:15 <oklopol> also sorting cards is my new hobby
14:53:48 <oklopol> not speedsorting, trying out different algos (my record is 2:15 or something)
14:54:03 <oklopol> (for speedsorting, in case someone happens to speedsort)
14:54:22 <oklopol> heapsort is kinda hard with a dog jumping on the cards
14:54:26 <fizzie> oklopol: Since we don't tolerate helpfulness around these parts, the article had to look like it was trying to be unhelpful, and someone had just accidentally written it so that it ended up being helpful after all. But the "mistake" was in fact deliberate, and now we'll need to find the culprit before everything's helpful.
14:55:04 <FireFly> That must've been what fungot meant
14:55:05 <fungot> FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on
14:55:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
14:55:49 <oklopol> fizzie: i suppose that's semipossible
14:56:32 <oklopol> my internet is broken, have to reboot the modemo thingie
14:56:42 <FireFly> the metanature of the article which was apparently a deliberate typo is confusing me :<
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14:58:04 <oklofog> oh, right, i'm using a proxy slow as hell
14:58:44 <oklofog> tried to get megavideo to think i'm an american, seems proxys don't get me that, maybe one of you nerds can explain why
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15:14:46 <oklofog> wait topic set by ais523, originally by ehird though, right?
15:16:18 <oklofog> should probably get back to my maths soon
15:16:36 <oklofog> been slackering for almost an hour
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15:51:07 <nooga_> i've got a 'formal languages' course on my university
15:51:56 <nooga_> i thought that i could make a project instead of going to classes
15:55:30 <nooga_> the teacher said 'ok, but you have to construct a problem for yourself'
15:55:39 <nooga_> and i don't have an idea
16:00:02 <nooga_> i though about some metalanguage fun
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16:08:59 <ehird95> so, Nathan of toastytech (of huge-collection-of-screenshots-of-GUIs, crazy IE-eliminating and Windows 95-...well, tolerating fame) fame has posted on the mozilla forums and bugzilla to get the latest seamonkey working on windows 95 (which he still uses as his OS, apparently)
16:09:23 <ehird95> but mine doesn't even get to that stage; I think I need some DLLs from IE 4 (I obliterated IE entirely, hee)
16:09:33 <ehird95> so, yeah, time to extract some installers.
16:10:46 <ehird95> 06:55:05 <fungot> FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on
16:10:47 <fungot> ehird95: fnord sounds better that way. costs me next to nothing.
16:11:03 <ehird95> fungot: but is it ethical? i mean, doing all that just to make your fnords better? it costs PEOPLE'S LIVES, dude.
16:11:04 <fungot> ehird95: it's not a religious issue at all). note that lst may be a dotted list
16:11:11 <ehird95> fungot: you can have ethics without being religious
16:11:12 <fungot> ehird95: what book and what is not
16:11:17 <fungot> ehird95: are the dots for?
16:11:22 <ehird95> fungot: i don't know. what are the dots for?
16:13:13 <ehird95> also: hooray for irfanview, another quality program that runs on 95.
16:14:28 <ehird95> (boo for opera, eater of my system resources)
16:14:49 <fungot> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/ fnord on line 91. obviously things have changed.
16:15:27 <ais523> fungot: you linked to the home page by mistake, rather than to the actual paste...
16:15:28 <fungot> ais523: do you put your data on the stack than i intended, but almost :)
16:21:46 * ehird95 tries opera 9; apparently it's less hogging
16:23:08 <ehird95> i just deleted opera and now i have no browsers
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16:25:19 <ehird95> I could use ftp, if DOS prompts didn't fuck up the system.
16:25:34 <ehird95> Ah, IE 3 is on the Windows disc.
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17:01:52 <ehird95> erm, what d you use to extract cabs and installers on windows?
17:02:04 <ais523> generally you just double-click them
17:02:16 <ehird95> on a .cab? no, that just gives the unknown file dialog
17:02:33 <ais523> it was very common to have GUI decompression software installed, normally shareware, back then
17:03:19 <ehird95> I have WinZip 6 installed, but it doesn't do cabs.
17:04:38 <ehird95> I guess I could install 7-Zip or something
17:04:41 <ais523> wow, I found the official instructions from Microsoft about extracting .cabs
17:04:49 <ais523> do you have internet access so you can see the stupidity for yourself?
17:04:54 <ais523> or shall I say it over IRC?
17:05:08 <ais523> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/129605 <--- so everyone can laugh at the windows 95 instructions
17:05:17 <ehird95> Opera 9 with a Windows ME dll helping it along, right now.
17:05:34 <ais523> it suggests using Start | Find | Files or Folders to find extract.exe
17:05:38 <ehird95> Somehow adding this ME component actually *improves* its operation.
17:05:44 <ais523> on the installation disk
17:05:46 <ehird95> Which would, at first site, seem to be an anti-tautology.
17:05:50 <ais523> and then, copying it to the root directory of drive C
17:06:13 <ais523> this is Microsoft's own advice, surely they'd know where it was?
17:07:05 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:07:29 <ais523> (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME)
17:07:32 -!- ehird95 has joined.
17:07:37 <ais523> <ais523> (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME)
17:07:50 <ehird95> I was testing to see if extract.exe is already included in Windows 95. I gather it was, because I got a DOSboxcrash.
17:08:10 <ais523> so in other words, the instructions are not only ridiculous, but also unnecessarily convoluted?
17:08:28 <ehird95> So, I guess my first task is to fix DOS prompts.
17:13:09 <ais523> in hardware or software?
17:15:31 <ehird95> by snapping one o the prongs that plugs into the key hole, thing
17:15:38 <ehird95> "If you try Scitech Display Doctor as an alternative VGA Driver: You must try Version 7. Versions before this (5.x, 6.x) are known not to work."
17:15:51 <ehird95> how am i meant to ping izzie :D
17:19:11 <ais523> I'm guessing that the key in question is f
17:19:19 <ais523> and I'll ping fizzie for you if necessary
17:20:10 <ehird95> That's totally alse. What a raternical attitude, to associate like a ern the concept o the key when there is no ucking rational evidence to back up the claim. I have expelled latulence more logical and unny!
17:21:00 <ais523> it would be so great if you were bluffing
17:21:19 <ais523> can you easily remap it to one of the other keys?
17:21:25 <ais523> maybe in the virtualiser?
17:21:34 <ais523> there are all the F-keys, as well as f itself, for instance
17:22:37 <ehird95> wll th ky dosn't it into that hol
17:23:07 <ehird95> rtttttttttttttttttr334445544444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444cttt
17:23:24 <ais523> you don't need to change the physical layout...
17:23:27 <ehird95> yhhhhhhhhhhhhhh5555555555555yhyu
17:24:03 <ehird95> i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy
17:24:59 <ehird95> Possible success! Fucking yay!
17:25:03 <ais523> you're typing reall badly
17:25:16 <ais523> presumably this is due to the keyboard problems
17:25:22 <ehird95> [17:05] <ehird95> i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy
17:25:28 <ehird95> the whole block of keys around f was totally missing
17:25:44 <ehird95> i was trying to put the "3" (back) (i.e. backwards i.e. e) key in slot (i.e. slot of f key)
17:26:00 <ehird95> ugh, the f key's tactileness is subtly but annoyingly different now
17:26:13 <ehird95> rebooting for SciTech Displa Doctor 7 Beta!
17:26:21 <ais523> is your keyboard back in order?
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17:31:30 <ehird95> good news: the driver seems to work
17:31:40 <ehird95> bad news: the configuration panel looks like XP and has animations.
17:31:47 <ehird95> I hope I can not run it all the time
17:31:57 <ehird95> Also, of course, I will have to pirate it.
17:32:07 <ais523> is it a shareware driver?
17:32:21 <ehird95> Yes; Scion Display Doctor aka UniVBE or whatever it's called.
17:33:13 <ais523> shareware drivers are a horrible horrible thought
17:33:26 <ais523> my mind is refusing to comprehend the possibility that they exist
17:33:34 <ais523> even though you've said they do
17:33:58 <ehird95> ais523: they DID code support for thousands upon thousands of graphics cards -- literally
17:34:10 <ehird95> so it's understandable, if misguided, that they'd demand money for it
17:34:20 <ais523> yes, but suppose the time runs out; you'll then be unable to see your screen
17:34:29 <ehird95> no, it'll revert to the default VGA driver that can run anything.
17:34:41 <ehird95> windows 95 does that automatically, unlike ancient technology such as, uh, Xorg.
17:35:01 <ehird95> anyway i doubt the actual driver checks the licenses
17:35:20 <ehird95> maybe it spawns something that does, but i highly doubt there's license-checking code inside the driverspace
17:35:42 <ehird95> aaaand command prompts work
17:36:13 <ehird95> hope there's a serial for this somewhere.
17:36:44 * ehird95 installs powerstrip to see if he can get the resolution to be 16:10
17:36:58 <ais523> are you planning on sticking with windows 95, btw?
17:37:13 <ais523> using it as a main OS for a while
17:37:20 <ais523> (also, is that a legit copy?)
17:37:25 <ehird95> well, that's effectively what I'm doing, albeit in a VM. also, no.
17:37:35 <ehird95> I doubt this thing will actually become my main OS.
17:37:38 <ais523> we should port LGA to it
17:37:44 <ehird95> But it *is* suprisingly capable, and I like the GUI.
17:37:58 <ehird95> (did you really have to ask whether it was legit, by the way? I mean, it's me!)
17:38:03 <ais523> so it can become legit
17:38:06 <ais523> (probably easier than porting WGA, because we don't have the source to that)
17:38:30 <ehird95> i'm not sure microsoft would cooperate :)
17:39:25 * ehird95 decides to give a name to small programs, generally run at startup, that apply globally to the OS and have no UI apart from configuration (if even that)
17:39:37 <ehird95> for instance, Rain is a fixup that runs hlt on idle cycles
17:40:00 <ais523> ehird95: sort-of like services on UNIX?
17:40:05 <ehird95> the only UI is a system tray icon that you can right click to turn it off/on (it hides/shows rain drops hitting a chip), and if you left-click it a little about dialog pops up (strangely without any attribution)
17:40:17 <ehird95> personally I'd prefer it had no system tray; you can just kill it if you want to disable it
17:40:35 <ais523> an about box that doesn't say who made it
17:40:41 <ais523> that's like, the purpose of about boxes
17:40:59 <ais523> even the Windows programs I made years ago had help|about menu items that put up a message box
17:41:06 <ehird95> well, no; it tells you what processor it's optimised for
17:41:14 <ehird95> (it's an option when you install)
17:42:40 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, I called them fixups for a reason; it's genreeally of the form "this should be like this in the OS, but it isn't"
17:42:55 <ehird95> or, less mildly, "I prefer the OS to work this way, but it isn't an option; this works instead"
17:43:12 <ehird95> Fitts, for instance, will be a fixup of the first kind: the OS should obey Fitts' Law, and dammit I'm going to make it.
17:43:35 <ehird95> (It'll be installed entirely into the StartUp menu, and have no UI; you can terminate it via Ctrl+Alt+Delete if you want.)
17:44:26 <ais523> how are you going to magically make Windows 95 obey Fitts' Law?
17:44:42 <ais523> and will you make every program do so? or just the things that are part of the OS? or just the things that came with the OS?
17:44:45 <ehird95> well, only one instance actually annoys me that I've noticed: the task bar
17:44:57 <ais523> does the start button work in the bottom-left corner/
17:45:14 <ais523> what about closeboxes?
17:45:20 <ehird95> however, just fixing that isn't all
17:45:27 <ehird95> you can't swipe to the bottom pixel to switch window
17:45:33 <ehird95> so what i'm doing is, removing the border of the task bar
17:45:37 <ehird95> imagine the start button and the window buttons
17:45:41 <ehird95> and just put them right next to each other
17:45:57 <ehird95> and then put that at the bottom of the screen, the regular gray blank taskbar area (but smaller, since it's without the padding)
17:46:07 <ehird95> then the system tray, with its indented border again being as high as the whole thing
17:46:15 <ehird95> fitt's law obeyed, graphical consistency obeyed
17:46:58 <ehird95> it should be quite easy, too
17:47:14 <ehird95> just basically moving the task bar slightly off screen, then painting over it a bit to make the graphics look good
17:47:24 <ehird95> (slightly off screen so that the buttons flush with the screen edges)
17:47:48 <ehird95> well, and force-clipping its height so windows can go in the unused space where there would be padding
17:48:04 <ehird95> then just some extra hackery to move the button widgets next to each other
17:48:16 <ehird95> windows 95 has basically no protections, so i should be able to do it without asking please.
17:51:41 <fizzie> I was not very pokeable, being shopping and eating and thing.
17:53:34 <ehird95> Anyone know how to make a Windows monitor definition file?
17:55:05 <fizzie> I did one once, but I certainly have forgotten the knowledge by now.
17:55:19 <fizzie> It was for the 666x666 screen mode I used in Linux, I think.
17:55:29 <fizzie> Perhaps not so useful.
17:56:58 <ehird95> Yay, I can close that awful XP-like thing without breaking the drivers.
17:57:07 <ehird95> My world is a house of joy.
17:57:26 <ehird95> Time to install SeaMonkey 1.1.17, because you have to patch it to get .18 working.
17:57:54 <ehird95> So, I don't suppose anyone knows of something like the task manager for Windows 9x?
17:57:59 <fizzie> There's this http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html thing I might've used; it does monitor.inf format for timings, though not a complete file.
17:58:08 <ehird95> You know, listing processes, their memory usage, their CPU usage, and letting you kill them.
17:58:21 <ehird95> I found one but it sucked so much as to be useless.
17:58:43 <ehird95> fizzie: Timings don't matter if the screen isn't real, do they?
17:59:17 <fizzie> I guess not, no. You just needed the right resolution or something?
17:59:44 <ehird95> Yah; I'm using VESA BIOS stuff and want mah 1680x1050.
18:00:08 <fizzie> I'm not completely sure you'll get it with the VESA driver unless you can get VirtualBox's fakey VESA BIOS to advertise that mode, but who knows.
18:01:00 <ehird95> Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
18:01:44 <ehird95> Erm, what's the DOS pager?
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18:02:06 <ais523> same as in UNIX, come to think of it
18:02:14 <ehird95> I wasn't thinking of that one, but that'll do
18:02:21 <fizzie> There's the built-in "dir/p".
18:02:42 <ehird95> anyone know the command-line switch to mozilla browsers to run in "safe mode" or whatever?
18:02:47 <ehird95> i.e., you're not starting up. stop that. start up. mode
18:02:58 <ehird95> fizzie: that's what I was thinking of
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18:03:15 <fizzie> Heh, in the DOS 6 configuration I have (with cracked 4dos and all kinds of customizations) somehow more.com has gotten corrupted, and piping anything to more causes an instant reboot.
18:05:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:05:39 <fizzie> Compiled to command.com, sure; the tab completion was nice, for example.
18:05:50 <fizzie> I don't really remember what the must-have features were.
18:05:51 <ehird95> Compiled to what what what now?
18:06:16 <ehird95> But indeed, no tab completion is annoying me.
18:06:53 <fizzie> There's also a pretty colorful variant of 'dir', with a lot more flags.
18:07:25 <fizzie> I guess you could use a ported ls.
18:08:15 <fizzie> The 4dos "dir" isn't too shabby though.
18:08:26 <fizzie> I had just that with the right flags aliased.
18:08:53 <ehird95> I wonder if WebKit compiles on 9x, and if not, how much effort it'd be to port it.
18:08:58 <fizzie> Right, and you get a bit more conventional memory free with 4dos than command.com, but that's probably not an issue if you're mostly win95'ing.
18:09:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4DOS and the "Features" list is probably pretty comprehensive. The better batch files I've used, though it's obviously only for personal things, since otherwise non-4dos people couldn't use them.
18:11:19 <Asztal> If webkit uses cairo on windows, that could be a problem. (That's primarily why firefox 3 dropped support for 98, I think)
18:12:15 <ehird95> To hell with 98, I'm talkin' 'bout 95.
18:12:27 <ehird95> Anyway, I don't know if it does.
18:14:20 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of Webkit ports, so either it's not horribly difficult to port, or alternatively people have just been suitably inspired.
18:14:56 <ehird95> Well, there's an Official(TM) build. I'd worry that it'd use Apple's font rendering and widgets like in Safari, but the code for those will be Top Secret, s.
18:15:19 <ehird95> And the source is available, obviously, so.
18:15:35 * ehird95 downloads it to see if it balks
18:17:30 <AnMaster> in perl what is the B:: "namespace" of modules
18:17:45 <ehird95> Well, not really internals.
18:17:52 <ehird95> Just an exposure of the Perl compiler stuff so you can be Xzibit.
18:18:38 <ehird95> We go through this every three months, AnMaster.
18:18:58 <ehird95> I swear to God we do. Every goddamn time you've completely forgotten every memory of it entirely.
18:19:17 <AnMaster> ehird95, was it something related to CS?
18:19:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it'll be on Wikipedia, if you've forgotten
18:20:02 <ehird95> The article isn't very helpful, I imagine.
18:20:05 <AnMaster> some actor or such using that stage name
18:20:44 <ehird95> Originating from Pimp My Ride, vis-a-vis Xzibit putting objects of desire of person P inside P's car, vis-a-vis vapid, vis-a-vis meme potential.
18:20:48 <AnMaster> and I forgot what that meme was about
18:21:08 <ehird95> VIS-A-VIS yo dawg I heard you like verb(X)ing I put an X in your Y so you can verb(X) while you verb(Y)
18:21:30 <ehird95> VIS-A-FUCKIN'-VIS morphing into X=Y.
18:21:32 <ais523> s/verb(X)ing/participle(X)/
18:21:39 <ehird95> Thus, being Xzibit ~= doing meta-things.
18:22:14 <fizzie> Ooh, the status indicator in the service company's tracking page for the broken monitor has changed from red ("in queue") to yellow ("being worked on").
18:23:59 <fizzie> There's nothing else useful on the tracking page, but at least I can neurotically look at the indicator and wait until it turns green ("ready").
18:24:29 <fizzie> Then I... uh, I guess I just wait for them to contact me. What is this tracking thing good for, actually?
18:25:42 <ais523> it's like the nethack devteam with their buglist
18:25:54 <ais523> it gives the impression of progress without actually benefitting anyone
18:28:19 <fizzie> Oh, there's a subpage with an "event log"; the event log currently has (for today) three copies of the message "received at the service point" and one empty message.
18:29:50 <ehird95> "A Modern Webkit browser on Windows 98
18:29:50 <ehird95> Thanks to cfchris6 who compiled a binary of Arora that runs on Windows98"
18:29:57 <ehird95> Surely must run on 95 then!
18:30:14 <ehird95> Arora kinda... sucks, though.
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20:22:28 <ais523> is this freenode getting rid of their memory leaks?
20:26:24 <oerjan> must be, since netsplits have never happened before
20:39:43 <oerjan> (so long he has to recheck, actually)
20:40:44 <oerjan> indeed, there was an error with the nvg server so i didn't get onto irc
20:41:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, not that I was here hours ago either. Was listening to someone talking about discrete mathematics at university.
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20:44:51 <ehird95> SeaMonkey sucks, there is nothing better
20:44:55 <ehird95> however, it sucks less than Opera
20:47:28 <AnMaster> well then, do main browsing outside vm and just the stuff you actually need the vm for inside the vm?
20:47:37 <ehird95> I don't need this VM for anything.
20:48:03 <ehird95> I decided to try Windows 95, and as an extended experiment/what-if I'm, well, using it.
20:48:26 <ehird95> Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's...
20:48:43 <ehird95> Although they could do with supporting Unicode.
20:49:17 <AnMaster> <ehird95> Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's... <-- hm..
20:49:26 <ehird95> Yes. They're wonderfully simple.
20:49:38 <AnMaster> err how is that inherently good?
20:49:46 <ehird95> For one, Explorer is pleasant to use and has a real design.
20:49:58 <ehird95> And isn't over-cluttered with 400 million options.
20:50:06 <AnMaster> ehird95, explorer in xp is quite reasonable to use. Windows 7... not so
20:50:16 <ehird95> Yeah, I could never use XP's explorer after using 95's.
20:50:18 <ais523> AnMaster: explorer before 98 was really nice
20:50:26 <ais523> 98 brought in some weird HTML folder description thing, though
20:50:35 <ais523> so you could translate your folders to HTML and have persistent something-or-others
20:50:36 <AnMaster> ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes
20:50:36 <ehird95> Yep, 98 came and fucked it up with its wonderful IE-OS-component bullshit
20:50:42 <ehird95> AnMaster: you have a mental defect
20:50:47 <ehird95> either that or you have never used anything before 98
20:50:53 <ehird95> and have severely lowered standards
20:51:00 <ehird95> 98's explorer is unbearable...
20:51:06 <ais523> ehird95: that's what AnMaster said!
20:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird95, I used 95 a bit. Not much. And note "<AnMaster> ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes"
20:51:26 <ais523> I ended up using Explorer in 98 quite a bit
20:51:30 <ais523> it isn't unusable, just awful
20:51:40 <AnMaster> I may actually have an 98 OEM CD somewhere
20:52:06 <ehird95> Well, if you use 95's explorer for any length of time to do actual stuff, then 98's for a time, and come out of it saying 98's explorer is hell yes... I'm thinking this might be a case of there being an actual objective right/wrong opinion on things. :P
20:52:22 <ehird95> Also: Wow IrfanView can do a lt.
20:52:48 <AnMaster> I remember the weird manual with 98 (OEM at least) had some sort of "rub this area of the outside of the manual that looks like something found on money and it should change colour. If it doesn't this copy is fake"
20:53:04 <ehird95> Ah yes, hologram piracy protection!
20:53:40 <AnMaster> ehird95, well not exactly. I don't think "warm it up and check if it changes colour" counts as a "hologram"
20:53:53 <ehird95> Really Obvious Giving Away Of Non-Nativeness In SeaMonkey, #742: My OS draws outlines for windows when resizing. SeaMonkey redraws the window constantly.
20:54:15 <ehird95> Less noticably, it uses its own icon for the resize-diagonal cursor, an I have no clue why.
20:55:59 <ehird95> The Watcom IDE is so, so stereotypically Win3.1.
20:58:13 <AnMaster> argh not again.... google holiday logo on results page but not on main page
20:58:48 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/logos/gandhi09res.gif
21:01:41 * ehird95 has the crushing realisation that he doesn't even know what the prototype for WinMain is, and yet wants to mess with the task bar
21:03:24 <AnMaster> if you mean adding something to the area near the clock?
21:03:32 <ehird95> No; that's trivial compared to what I'm doing.
21:03:39 <ehird95> In practical terms, my code will:
21:03:55 <ehird95> - move the task bar down and left so that they end off the edge of the display
21:04:11 <ehird95> - forcefully clip the height of the task bar from the top to a certain height
21:04:22 <ehird95> - change spacing between widgets in the task bar
21:04:28 <ehird95> and possibly a little bit more.
21:04:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: i have gandhi on the main page *BWAHAHAHA*
21:04:46 <ehird95> This, while not restricted in any way - 95 has no protection, after all - is going to be non-trivial.
21:05:00 <ehird95> *so that it ends off the edge
21:05:04 <ehird95> Weird pluralisation typo there.
21:05:36 <oklofog> some of wp's sort pages have switched to static sorting visualization
21:05:38 <ehird95> A better alternative to the first one would be moving the widgets in the task bar, which I can probably do.
21:06:17 * oerjan cannot see oklofog clearly
21:06:21 <ehird95> AnMaster: The user-interface effect of this code is that the task bar will obey Fitts' Law: you can hit the bottom-left pixel in the screen to open the start menu, you can select a window even if you hit the very bottom pixel, etc.
21:06:53 <ehird95> AnMaster: This is a Very Good Thing, because the current taskbar is mildly but significantly annoying (I'm unintentionally training myself to be slower aiming for it, which reduces annoyance almost entirely but makes me slower).
21:07:03 <ehird95> AnMaster: It's a law about the easiest places to access with the mouse.
21:07:11 <ehird95> Anything on the screen edge has infinite width/height.
21:07:17 <ehird95> You can move your mouse up and up and it'll stay there.
21:07:36 <ehird95> And things with infinite height are the easiest to hit; the easiest places on the screen to hit are the exact position your cursor is in, and the four corners.
21:07:52 <ehird95> It has more subtle results than that, but that's the only part my application uses.
21:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird95, what are the more subtle results?
21:08:19 <ehird95> Like the easiest places to reach in-between those two extremes.
21:08:36 <AnMaster> ehird95, also it isn't true always. Hitting left side of my desktop is currently rather hard due to synergy.
21:08:52 <ehird95> Anyway, Windows 2000 onwards or somesuch already lets you open the start menu with a bottom-leftmost click, but it doesn't redraw the widgets so that the start menu actually ends at the screen edge, which looks weird, and it doesn't let you hit the bottom pixel of the screen to switch windows.
21:09:08 <ehird95> AnMaster: It works perfectly fine there, it just considers both computers as one desktoop.
21:09:13 <ehird95> Because, as far as the mouse is concerned, they are.
21:09:33 <ehird95> Of course, since nothing on the other computer is useful to software on the other, it basically limits the choices of the application.
21:09:52 <AnMaster> ehird95, yes, you just have to be aware of that the mouse does not stop at the bottom left corner when going to the K menu
21:10:18 <AnMaster> I often end up clicking the right end of the panel on my laptop instead
21:10:29 <AnMaster> on the other hand, the alternative is worse
21:10:46 <AnMaster> which means I have to sit at an awkward angle for one of the computers
21:10:55 <ehird95> Just set up a delay, dude.
21:11:01 <ehird95> Like 100ms before it switches.
21:11:13 <ehird95> Then it shouldn't really be an issue so much.
21:11:29 <ehird95> Maybe you could add an exception for that corner pixel.
21:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird95, well the delay helps a lot. But still I have issues with that yeah
21:11:39 <ehird95> I doubt you want to switch computers through it so very often.
21:12:12 <AnMaster> and well not a lot unless I'm copying stuff between them
21:13:40 <ehird95> So add an exception for that corner pixel.
21:13:51 <ehird95> Voila, Fitts' Law is saved for the most useful cases (the corners).
21:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird95, just have to find out how
21:14:08 <ehird95> Well, yes, that would be the hard part. :P
21:14:27 <AnMaster> and yeah I should probably add a bit more than that single pixel. since I seem to often hit like 4-5 pixels up the side
21:14:42 <AnMaster> however when I actually *want* to switch it is often somewhere in the upper 2/3rd
21:14:55 <ehird95> It's alright, ehird95. We'll work out Win32. Together.
21:15:12 <ehird95> You don't have to be scared on the WinMain() and the HWND and the LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR.
21:15:34 <ehird95> Come on ehird95. Let's just open the browser and go to Google. CALM DOWN. It will not destroy your soul. Uh, much.
21:15:36 <AnMaster> LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR <--- LPT REXTISTENTAL HORROR?
21:15:43 <ehird95> Long pointer to existential horror.
21:16:22 <AnMaster> ehird95, are you sure it is actually possible to do this without basically patching system files?
21:16:29 <ehird95> ELLIOTT. Do not think about the fact that they use stdcall. They are not on crack! Okay, fine, they are on crack. But that doesn't mean you'll be on crack too! When using it? I think?
21:16:35 <ehird95> AnMaster: Windows 95 has no protection.
21:16:37 <AnMaster> do it as a windows 95 plus theme thingy
21:16:42 <ehird95> Any process can do what the fuck it wants.
21:16:52 <ehird95> That's how loadlin works; it's just an ordinary process that goes "byebye, Windows".
21:17:20 <AnMaster> ehird95, I forgot how it differed
21:17:31 <ehird95> I don't recall either, I just recall it's freaky.
21:17:31 <AnMaster> return value in register or something?
21:17:54 <ehird95> Also, second project queued up: Windows 9x WebKit browser that doesn't suck.
21:17:58 <ehird95> I have had it with these browsers!
21:18:10 <ehird95> Can barely... bare... them.
21:18:11 <AnMaster> "The stdcall[1] calling convention is a variation on the pascal calling convention in which parameters are passed on the stack, pushed right-to-left. Registers EAX, ECX, and EDX are designated for use within the function. Return values are stored in the EAX register. The callee is responsible for cleanup of the stack."
21:18:28 <ehird95> Yeah, but AnMaster, they do varargs stdcall.
21:18:34 <ehird95> The Win32API actually has that.
21:18:46 <ehird95> It's some crazy horrifying trick.
21:18:53 <AnMaster> right to left. No it shouldn't be an issue
21:19:05 <ehird95> Where's the first argument, though?
21:19:13 <ehird95> Ask ais523; he's more acquainted with the unmentionable horror.
21:19:39 <ais523> I don't know the details of Windows calling conventions
21:19:49 <ais523> except that they make your programs nonportable by forcing you to specify them all the time
21:19:55 <ais523> with keywords non-Windows compilers don't accept
21:20:53 <ehird95> Pretty sure if you're using the Windows API you're non-portable anyway.
21:20:54 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't the headers specify them already? and for exported API just do: #define PLATFORM_EXPORT_FUNC to the __dllspec(whatever) stuff and so on
21:21:10 <ehird95> Okay, time to dive in to the WinMain().
21:21:25 <ais523> AnMaster: things like callbacks you have to define yourself
21:21:27 <ehird95> Fitts, version 1: a graphical Win32 program that exits immediately after it starts. Go.
21:21:34 <ais523> and with particular keyboard conventions
21:22:17 <AnMaster> ais523, btw cfunge doesn't use standard calling convention on x86 either. After profiling I found that using the gcc __attribute__ to use register passing saved *quite* a bit on 32-bit x86
21:22:32 <ehird95> Hmm, a Windows 9x-native WebKit browser might be quite... interesting; seeing as I'm pretty sure on Windows your toolkit options are GTK and Qt.
21:22:34 <AnMaster> only applies to internal functions of course
21:22:50 <ehird95> (Chrome uses their own port of WebKit to Windows, but Chrome is XP/Vista/7 only, so.)
21:22:57 <ais523> AnMaster: cfunge isn't meant to be portable C when the extreme-x86 options are turned on
21:23:04 <ais523> and I'm glad you're doing it as a portable/nonportable polyglot
21:23:28 <ehird95> So I'm pretty sure I'd have to rewrite every single widget call in WebKit to use Win32.
21:23:32 <AnMaster> ais523, actually not an option. It is always used if 1) GCC is detected 2) 32-bit x86 is
21:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird95, GTK for windows? Or is that not 9x either?
21:24:13 <ehird95> AnMaster: Well, there's Qt for Windows too, but they're both Not Actually Native(TM).
21:24:24 <ehird95> Both use the actual widgets, iirc, but the total construction is off.
21:24:24 <AnMaster> ehird95, QT on windows looks good though
21:24:43 <AnMaster> ehird95, "for extended usage" I mean
21:24:47 <ehird95> I can guarantee you there are many subtle warts vs the platform, just like in OS X.
21:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird95, nothing I noticed. But I'm quite happy with gimp on OS X apart from the whole "X11 starting" bit
21:25:29 <AnMaster> and I'm fine with mixed KDE and GTK too
21:25:55 <ehird95> You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too?
21:25:59 <AnMaster> lets see my desktop.... KDE3... GTK apps not set to KDE like theme but just old style very rectangular theme
21:26:18 <ehird95> But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you...
21:26:24 <AnMaster> <ehird95> You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too? <-- yes, but not when I last used OS X
21:26:28 <ehird95> because it simply doesn't integrate one bit; it's the polar opposite
21:26:36 <AnMaster> <ehird95> But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you... <-- no I didn't say it fits well
21:27:13 <AnMaster> I just said: I have no problems with it not fitting well
21:27:13 <AnMaster> but it just doesn't bother me much
21:27:20 <AnMaster> more than gimp does *anywhere* I mean
21:27:22 <ehird95> int WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow)
21:27:28 <ehird95> Jesus lord mother of fucking goddamn shitting christ.
21:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird95, where is the pointer to the struct
21:27:41 <ehird95> Holy cow, that's some function prototype for a goddamn main function.
21:27:41 <AnMaster> and what is the instance stuff
21:27:52 <ehird95> Instance is the application instance; i.e. your process, sorta.
21:28:06 <ehird95> lpCmdLine is your command line arguments, except they all come as one string.
21:28:10 <ehird95> nCmdShow is I have no fucking idea.
21:28:15 <ehird95> WINAPI expands to stdcall.
21:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird95, int main(void), int main(argc, argv), int main(argc, argv, envp) are the ones I know of on POSIX
21:28:28 <AnMaster> <ehird95> hPrevInstance is NULL. <-- wait what?
21:28:35 <ehird95> AnMaster: Backwards compatibility.
21:28:48 <ehird95> This is why back compat evil. :)
21:29:01 <AnMaster> ehird95, how comes POSIX doesn't have so many visible backward compat warts
21:29:27 <ehird95> Because POSIX is a million times less popular.
21:29:47 <ehird95> And basically no consumers use it, thus all the apps are mainly business, backend stuff, etc.
21:29:51 <ehird95> Which tends to be less shit.
21:31:42 * ehird95 adds a search box to SeaMonkey with MonkeyMenu. Yaaaay.
21:31:44 <pikhq> Less people do really truly awful things to POSIX. And people are much less bitchy when stuff breaks on POSIX systems.
21:32:00 <pikhq> That's... About it.
21:32:36 <AnMaster> wikipedia on AMD64 calling convention: "The calling convention of the AMD64 application binary interface is followed on Linux and other non-Microsoft operating systems. The registers RDI, RSI, RDX, RCX, R8 and R9 are used for integer and pointer arguments while XMM0, XMM1, XMM2, XMM3, XMM4, XMM5, XMM6 and XMM7 are used for floating point arguments. As in the Microsoft x64 calling convention, additiona
21:32:36 <AnMaster> l arguments are pushed onto the stack and the return value is stored in RAX."
21:32:47 <AnMaster> would help if it was actually accurate
21:33:18 <AnMaster> basically. Small structs are also passed in registers
21:36:42 <ehird95> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_style worst wp article ever
21:37:39 <ehird95> someone got into the edit page and thought "I'm going to explain EVERY NUANCE to everyone who reads this article! They'll be so pleased that I've accurately documented the facts and subtleties of every single facet of programming style. Hey, what does it matter if half of them only apply to curly brace languages? What does it matter if I should be describing the basic elements because it's an encyclopedia? Whoopdihey!"
21:42:39 <ehird95> The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place.
21:42:51 <AnMaster> what do you think of the term "an eightbyte"?
21:43:09 <AnMaster> Within this specification, the term byte refers to a 8-bit object, the term twobyte
21:43:09 <AnMaster> refers to a 16-bit object, the term fourbyte refers to a 32-bit object, the term
21:43:09 <AnMaster> eightbyte refers to a 64-bit object, and the term sixteenbyte refers to a 128-bit
21:43:36 <AnMaster> (the 1 there is a footnote btw)
21:43:46 <ehird95> Hey, my first Win32 program just executed.
21:43:50 <ehird95> I feel my soul dripping away.
21:43:59 <ehird95> I executed a nop a few times before that.
21:44:08 * ais523 looks at http://www.html-protector.com/encrypt/sample.html
21:44:12 <ehird95> MessageBox(NULL, "Hello, world!", "Hello", MB_OK);
21:44:27 <ais523> it's much worse if you want to actually open a window
21:44:38 <ais523> rather than just sit in the background without an associated window
21:44:40 <AnMaster> <ehird95> The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place. <-- why are you using that one?
21:44:40 <ehird95> Please, let the tutorial break the horror into me.
21:45:22 <AnMaster> ais523, "To display this page you need a browser with JavaScript support."?
21:45:23 <ehird95> AnMaster: Because I'm using Open Watcom, and it looks like it was designed for Windows 3.1. Subwindows up the wazoo, button-style toolbar icons, small (like in Mosaic), the editor/debugger/etc are all different programs, so you have to switch to another big-window-with-subwindows to do things like make and run.
21:45:30 <ehird95> Also, all the icons are 16x16, 16-color affairs.
21:45:39 <ais523> AnMaster: look at the source
21:45:51 <ehird95> And the editor's status line actually uses black Win 3.1-font (dunno what it's called) upon dark teal.
21:46:10 <ais523> basically, they have a bunch of JS on the page that they claim will make it impossible to open the page without a password, or in a "less-restricted" browser like Mozilla
21:46:19 <ais523> and even people who can open the page can't see its HTML, or even retrieve it from cache
21:46:20 <ehird95> However, it's convenient; it autoindents, syntax highlights and it also handles writing a build script for me.
21:46:27 <ais523> it's like one of those right-click-block scripts on steroids
21:46:31 <AnMaster> ais523, seems like a trivial to break encryption?
21:46:40 <ehird95> Which is good, because these are the commands it executes:
21:46:44 <ais523> so incredibly trivial that I thought people here would be amused by it
21:46:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it's just url encoding right?
21:47:06 <ais523> <META name="description" content="Protect html source. Protect your Web site with HTML Protector. Protect your html from source code thiefs! Password protect html source code on your website.">
21:47:19 <AnMaster> eval(unescape('%68%70%5F%6F%6B%3D%74%72%75%65%3B%66%75%6E%63%74%69%6F%6E%20%68%70%5F%64%30%30%28%73%29%7B%69%66%28%21%68%70%5F%6F%6B%29%72%65%74%75%72%6E%3B%64%6F%63%75%6D%65%6E%74%2E%77%72%69%74%65%28%73%29%7D'))
21:47:35 <AnMaster> maybe it defines the hp_d00 function
21:47:36 <ais523> eval(unescape('hp_ok=true;function hp_d00(s){if(!hp_ok)return;document.write(s)}'))
21:47:44 <ais523> I ran the source of the page through LeetKey
21:47:49 <ais523> which is an underestimated Firefox plugin
21:48:09 <ais523> it was originally designed to parse 1337-speak into something more readable
21:48:15 <ehird95> AnMaster: The reason I'm using the Open Watcom IDE is because it writes the Makefile (or equivalent) to run these commands without me getting near anything nearly as horrifying:
21:48:16 <ehird95> wmake -f C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.mk -h -e C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.exe
21:48:16 <ehird95> wcc386 Fitts.c -i="C:\WATCOM/h;C:\WATCOM/h/nt" -w4 -e25 -zq -od -d2 -6r -bt=nt -fo=.obj -mf
21:48:16 <ehird95> wlink name Fitts d all SYS nt_win op m op maxe=25 op q op symf @Fitts.lk1
21:48:20 <ais523> but a lot more filters got added to it over time
21:48:33 <ehird95> That's to compile one trivial C file into a Win32 graphical executable with Open Wacom.
21:48:36 <ais523> so it does things like ROT13ing and URLencode/decoding etc
21:48:40 <AnMaster> ehird95, why not use MSVC or something?
21:48:51 <ehird95> AnMaster: 1. Windows 95 2. $$$
21:48:55 <ais523> also, "source code thiefs"?
21:49:08 <ehird95> ais523: it means people who INFRINGE THE COPYRIGHT of your code!
21:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird95, MSDNAA doesn't seem to have such old MSVC
21:49:10 <ais523> for one, that should be "thieves", for two, I doubt they really exist in large numbers
21:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird95, oh I think I may have an old old copy of MSVC++ 6.0 or something
21:49:29 <ais523> I keep mentally muddling MSDNAA with MPAA and RIAA
21:49:31 <ehird95> speaking of "thieves", their site pops up a fake dialog using OS X Tiger's window widgets
21:49:33 <ais523> they shouldn't have picked a similar naming scheme
21:49:38 <ehird95> isn't that, you know, just as illegal?
21:50:05 <ehird95> AnMaster: was that an offer? I'm not exactly sure MSVC++ will be less horrific than this, but...
21:50:08 <ais523> "Retrieve this page from your cache... It %65xpires IMMEDIATELY!"
21:50:23 <ais523> I wonder why the URLdecode failed there? maybe it was double-encoded in the original...
21:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird95, it is an entire cd. if I can find it. Slow uplink. So probably not an offer as such
21:50:48 <ais523> also, I'm surprised that they thought of disabling cache (which means your own server gets hammered), but not of people just using view source and URL-decoding it
21:50:50 <AnMaster> plus it would be... you know. ileegal?
21:50:51 <ehird95> AnMaster: Also, the commands for MSVC++ are probably as horrific.
21:51:05 <ais523> also, first time I've seen a page deliberately coded to /not/ work in Firefox
21:51:06 <AnMaster> it sucks at standard compliance
21:51:16 <ehird95> AnMaster: actually downloading copyrighted material is legal in sweden iirc
21:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird95, yeah, it is bleeding edge research I know
21:51:36 <AnMaster> ehird95, um uploading is, But not downloading
21:51:47 <ehird95> AnMaster: that's bizarrely backwards
21:51:54 <AnMaster> ehird95, oh and I think using it is
21:52:00 <ehird95> why is providing copyrighted material legal, but downloading it isn't?
21:52:17 <AnMaster> ehird95, yep. It's like "selling sex isn't forbidden, buying sex is"
21:52:35 <ehird95> copyrighted content: substitute for sex!
21:53:47 <ehird95> http://weichhold.com/wp-content/gallery/misc/vc6_0.png ;; MSVC++ 6 seems to be a little prettier and less cluttered and has the advantage of being in one window
21:53:56 <ehird95> otoh, I don't need any of that file browser stuff since this thing is one file
21:54:04 <ehird95> and pirating it would probably take decades
21:54:05 <AnMaster> ais523, how on earth would that site prevent cache and such even on MSIE?
21:54:11 <ehird95> plus, eh, why not support FOSS :P
21:54:21 <ais523> I think there's anti-cache stuff in the headers
21:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird95, is that open watcom FOSS?
21:54:21 <ehird95> AnMaster: set it to be outdated immediately
21:54:34 <ehird95> AnMaster: it's the open-sourced continuation of the famous Watcom compiler
21:54:59 <ehird95> Doom, Descent, Magic Carpet, System Shock, Fast Attack, Atomic Bomberman, and Duke Nukem 3D are among well known games that were compiled with Watcom C.[1]
21:55:07 <ehird95> doubt they used the ide though :)
21:57:41 <fizzie> There's the text-based Watcom IDE too; that's the only one I've used.
21:58:53 <ehird95> you can't really feel the 3.1ness without using it, oh well
21:59:08 <ehird95> at least the window decorations and task bar should make you feel the windows 95ness :)
21:59:27 <AnMaster> ehird95, I only used windows 3.1 once. For a few minutes.
21:59:35 <AnMaster> So I couldn't ever feel windows3.1-ness
21:59:49 <ehird95> http://imgur.com/v729P.png (the commands at the end of the source file are just me typing out the build log)
22:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird95, the background picture doesn't look windows-95-ish
22:00:33 <ehird95> yeah, that's because i set it myself
22:00:57 <AnMaster> ehird95, doesn't fit with the environment at ALL
22:01:12 <AnMaster> ehird95, also it feels 3.1ish. The icons do that is
22:01:19 <ehird95> The window decorations are pretty much invisible to me after using them for a while, so everything else is fitting in with the background.
22:01:32 <ehird95> Green is underrepresented in 95, anyway.
22:01:44 <AnMaster> ehird95, why do you need green at all? :/
22:02:47 <ais523> yay, /me gets nostalgia for 16-bit programs on win95
22:02:57 <ais523> also, win95 font rendering
22:03:03 <ais523> ugly but very easy to make out the individual characters
22:03:09 <ais523> so although it was slow to read, it was pretty accurate
22:03:29 <ehird95> Eh, even XP ships with similar font rendering by default.
22:03:36 <ehird95> At larger sizes it antialiases them, though.
22:03:37 <ehird95> But otherwise it's identical.
22:04:17 <ehird95> The full background: http://imgur.com/vVBHr.png I scaled 'n cropped it from a 1680x1050 wallpaper.
22:04:30 <ais523> ehird95: XP is more likely to use truetype fonts than raster ones, though
22:04:33 <ehird95> Technically it's a BMP on disk for Windows, but that'd just be too slow to upload and download.
22:04:44 <ais523> and ouch, I remember BMP
22:04:55 <ais523> left-to-right, bottom-to-top, uncompressed, and with a weird header format
22:05:00 <ehird95> Bleh, I need a Show Desktop.
22:05:08 <ehird95> Maybe I'll code one and add it to the top of my start menu.
22:05:18 <ais523> I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95
22:05:28 <ehird95> Start, pause, d pops up the Documents menu.
22:05:45 <ehird95> Start+R and Start, pause, R do the same thing, though.
22:05:55 <ais523> also, the top of the start menu is rather a bad place to Fitt at
22:06:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95 <-- the area where it an IE was in was added in 98 iirc
22:06:13 <ehird95> yes, but the target is big vs the system tray or a Programs menu item
22:06:20 <ehird95> and I don't need to access it all that often
22:06:33 <ais523> gah, why can't you mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions?
22:06:41 * ais523 is still nostalgic for Program Manager
22:06:52 <ehird95> ais523: Program Manager works on 95.
22:07:08 <ehird95> It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing.
22:07:11 <ais523> but it doesn't load on boot
22:07:18 <ehird95> Anyway, you so can mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions.
22:07:27 <ais523> actually, did the right mouse button do anything in win3.1?
22:07:32 <ais523> except during the mouse tutorial/
22:07:36 <ehird95> For instance, NT 4.0 is a rock solid OS with 95's UI, except the UI is buggy.
22:07:47 <AnMaster> <ehird95> It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing. <-- huh??
22:07:53 <fizzie> I seem to remember it was win-M in 95.
22:07:56 <ehird95> I guess you could replace a good chunk of the UI straight from 95, thus getting 95-minus-meddling-plus-stability-and-sanity.
22:07:57 <fizzie> For "minimize all windows".
22:08:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> except during the mouse tutorial/ <-- what tutorial?
22:08:08 <ais523> AnMaster: Program Manager doesn't react to right-clicks
22:08:16 <ais523> AnMaster: Windows 3.1 had a mouse tutorial
22:08:24 <ais523> because mice were new, and you didn't know how to use them
22:08:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: I think you were here when we linked to the youtube clip containing the mouse tutorial.
22:08:41 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, let's think... NT 4.0 + 95 replacement GUI parts... well, that should be able to run 2000/XP programs without too much hacking
22:08:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what was it like though?
22:08:51 <ehird95> No games, though; it has anemic DirectX support.
22:08:56 <AnMaster> I would have to grep logs on cs
22:08:56 <ais523> AnMaster: to start with, you had to hover some polygons with numbers in
22:09:05 <ais523> then double-click, and drag, etc
22:09:13 <ais523> and near the end there was a dialog box with lots of useless controls
22:09:25 <AnMaster> ais523, how were you supposed to open this tutorial to begin with? :D
22:09:37 <ehird95> ais523: so, a good subset of 95+2000 apps if you're willing to do hackery, a rock solid kernel, 95's UI (plus any additions you want as long as they play fine with NT)...
22:09:45 <ehird95> seems like you can basically mix and match windows versions.
22:09:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhG-uds0-o has the win3.1 mouse tutorial; I remember that; it's the awesome, it's like this skill test "click here" "click there" "wow!"
22:09:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, for all I know it was shown on first boot
22:10:02 <ehird95> Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player.
22:10:10 <AnMaster> I actually can't remember a computer without a mouse
22:10:18 <AnMaster> this is due to growing up in a mac family
22:10:28 <AnMaster> even that old apple classic had a mouse
22:10:34 <ais523> my first computer was a BBC Micro B, which didn't have a mouse
22:10:45 <ehird95> Let's see if Flash 10 wants to install on Windows 95, attempt two???
22:10:45 <ais523> although it had a floppy disk drive, rather than the more usual tape
22:10:47 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but you are old ;P
22:10:55 <ehird95> ais523: basically as old as the dinosaurs!
22:11:06 <ais523> if I were old, it would have been punched cards or paper tape
22:11:18 <fizzie> Or paper wires, or punched wires.
22:11:23 * AnMaster wonders if that idioms exists in English
22:11:37 <AnMaster> for someone young and inexperienced
22:11:54 <AnMaster> ah so not just a Swedish idiom then
22:12:13 <ehird95> Well, Flash 9 is the latest for 98/ME; let's hope it'll pretend I'm 95.
22:12:27 <fizzie> It exists also in Finnish, except it's just "märkäkorva", lit. translated as "wet-ear".
22:12:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah but Finnish is strange :P
22:12:52 <ehird95> Unsupported operating system nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
22:12:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you remember punch cards?
22:13:17 <ehird95> flash 9, which is one behind the latest version
22:13:21 <ehird95> we'll see if flash 9 does 95.
22:13:25 <ehird95> we'll see if flash 8 does 95.
22:13:30 <ehird95> but I think youtube uses flash 9 these days...
22:13:40 <ehird95> THOSE 98 USERS GET ALL THE CHICKS^WYOUTUBE
22:14:03 <fizzie> ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it.
22:14:29 <ehird95> fizzie: I'd bet about 30% on being able to use setver with Windows.
22:14:45 <ehird95> sweet, setver is for every executable
22:15:09 <fizzie> It'll still only affect the MS-DOS version number, is my guess.
22:15:42 <fizzie> There's a different numbering there, after all.
22:16:00 <fizzie> Since it was already at dos 7 in win95.
22:16:29 <ehird95> i read something about seamonkey
22:16:36 <ehird95> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
22:16:47 <ehird95> windows. cursor. tutorial CLICK
22:17:05 <ehird95> Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player.
22:17:44 <ehird95> "After installing the plugin, click here." Big box.
22:18:37 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it. <-- sensible?
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22:19:11 <ehird95> why is there no flash player 8 uninstaller.
22:19:38 <ehird95> well it wasn't wrapped ina proper installer
22:19:42 <ehird95> i guess oldversion are peddling in
22:19:53 <ehird95> that are not the full... bodied... legitimacy of a full installer.
22:20:06 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for peddlable.
22:20:22 <ehird95> and thusly, it may be so that lacking their surrounding installer framework, instead being a lowly detect-browser-and-copy
22:20:35 <ehird95> they neglected to set up such uninstallable facilities, for my enjoyment, esquire, poppycock, cheesecake.
22:20:36 <AnMaster> Did you mean: define:peddleable No definitions were found for peddleable.
22:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird95, so what did that word mean?
22:20:58 <fizzie> Able to be peddled, I would guess, even without an official definition.
22:21:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is "peddled" then
22:21:25 <AnMaster> "A peddler, in British English pedlar, also known as a canvasser, cheapjack, monger, or solicitor (with negative connotations since the 16th ..."
22:21:49 <AnMaster> "solicitor"? some sort of lawyer?
22:22:03 <fizzie> "S: (v) peddle, monger, huckster, hawk, vend, pitch (sell or offer for sale from place to place)"
22:22:54 <fizzie> I guess they're not "selling" in a strictly literal sense, but anyway.
22:23:05 <ehird95> var swfUrl = canPlayV9Swf()
22:23:16 <ehird95> youtube on windows 95 = impossible
22:23:38 <fizzie> The internets have some uses of "peddlable" in the "can be done with a pedal" sense too, but I doubt that's it.
22:24:25 <ehird95> even flash 8 doesn't work on 95
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22:25:06 <ais523> thought: does Wine run on Windows 95?
22:25:14 <ais523> you could use it to run more recent Windows programs on older versions
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22:26:13 <Sgeo> Why would WINE run on Windows?
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22:26:24 <fizzie> Does Wine run on Windows at all?
22:26:54 <ehird95> And Cygwin 1.5 supports 95.
22:27:00 <ais523> heh, Wine compiles under Cygwin but doesn't run there?
22:27:01 <fizzie> Sgeo: For the lulz, I guess.
22:27:10 <ehird95> wine and cygwin both run under each other
22:27:12 <Sgeo> PCLinuxOS looks very attractive
22:27:16 <ais523> also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit
22:27:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could use colinux first
22:27:27 <pikhq> Actually, it's just that Cygwin no longer runs on Windows 95.
22:27:31 <ehird95> first, it's based on mandriva, which is basically the archetypical bad linux distro
22:27:41 <ehird95> second, it's less popular than mandriva so doesn't even have the community
22:27:41 <AnMaster> not sure about newer windows versions
22:27:42 <pikhq> Alternately: you could maybe just use the Wine DLLs on Win 95.
22:27:42 <Sgeo> PCLinuxOS : Linux :: Windows Vista : Windows ?
22:27:50 <ehird95> third, it offers nothing even over mandriva
22:27:58 <ehird95> in conclusion, it's the only possible way to make mandriva worse :P
22:28:14 <ais523> some programs run better under Wine then under native Windows
22:28:29 <Sgeo> Can I get PCLinuxOS styles for Ubuntu?
22:28:36 <ehird95> Sgeo: they're just kde styles.
22:28:48 <ais523> I have KDE on this Ubuntu system
22:28:53 <Sgeo> When KDE works well on Ubuntu, I'll try it
22:28:59 <ehird95> you have kubuntu, presumably, ais523
22:29:02 <Sgeo> Last time I tried, things were crashtastic
22:29:16 <ais523> I have most of its dependencies, but not the package itself
22:29:18 <ehird95> well, the packages come from kubuntu, anyway
22:29:30 <ehird95> so i don't think that system running that kde is really not-kubuntu
22:29:39 <ais523> wow, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge_Unshackled is linked from Wikipedia
22:29:47 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Mandriva ?
22:29:55 <ais523> oerjan: looks like your creation is getting attention
22:30:08 <ehird95> Sgeo: firstly, it's over-commercialised
22:30:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit
22:30:22 <ehird95> and thus mostly based around their company and the branding mandriva
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22:30:37 <ehird95> nobody who knows linux uses mandriva
22:30:40 <ais523> for a bit it was just me and pikhq
22:30:42 <Sgeo> But PCLinuxOS presumably doesn't inherit commercialization from Mandriva
22:30:46 <ehird95> thirdly, its desktop is basically juts kde 4
22:30:51 <AnMaster> ais523, when you said that you had been back for over a minute
22:30:52 <ehird95> it's just yet another crappy distro
22:31:03 <ais523> AnMaster: coming back from the netsplit made me lag
22:31:07 <ehird95> Sgeo: considering pclinuxos = mandriva with a different logo, sure it does.
22:31:13 <ais523> probably because I was in #nethack at the time and there were hundreds of join messages to send
22:31:32 <ehird95> the question isn't what's wrong with mandriva although it can certainly be answered, the question is what on earth does it have over ubuntu?
22:31:34 <fizzie> According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows
22:31:36 <AnMaster> well I know how it is after a netsplit
22:31:46 <Sgeo> ehird95, looking sexy out of the box?
22:31:46 <AnMaster> often you end up splitting due to full queues
22:31:50 <ehird95> ubuntu has a huge, huge, HUGE community, is making advances in usability, ...
22:32:11 <ehird95> Sgeo: I guess you just sit at your computer drooling all day instead of using it, but FWIW 9.10's default theme is appealing.
22:32:32 <ehird95> Ooh, Mandriva doesn't even use yum.
22:33:06 <Sgeo> ehird95, that made as much sense to me as "Debian doesn't even use rpm"
22:33:23 <ehird95> ais523: their very own wrapper over rpm
22:33:24 <Sgeo> Hm, I guess yum is a thingy that works over rpm? That makes more sense
22:33:26 <AnMaster> <fizzie> According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows <-- why are some of the UI elements on there translated to Swedish for me???
22:33:37 <ehird95> AnMaster: moinmoin does that.
22:33:53 <ehird95> (moinmoin, n. means "shitty wiki software" in hawaiian)
22:34:08 <ehird95> from the word "moin", "shitty", and the word "moin", "wiki software".
22:34:19 <AnMaster> "Sök" and "Innehåll" oh and a third one: "senast redigerad
22:35:51 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, do you remember punch cards? <-- i vaguely recall there may have been some in the telecom building where my dad worked/works, back in the late 70s/early 80s.
22:36:02 <ehird95> "I would not call Clue (as well as Self BCT) a language, rather a machine with a complex behavior." --Oleg on a language just as valid as BCT
22:36:14 <ehird95> Oleg should really shut up when he doesn't know what he's talking about...
22:37:26 <AnMaster> who is this "oleg"? Sure I seen the name elsewhere
22:37:43 <ehird95> oleg 1 is on the esolang wiki
22:37:54 <AnMaster> oleg being an anagram for lego?
22:38:00 <ehird95> oleg 2 is the uber-master-god of type systems, scheme, haskell and ocaml and he is smarter than you, full stop
22:38:12 <ehird95> oleg 2 is of http://okmij.org/ftp/
22:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird95, and which of these ie the oleg that should shut up?
22:39:41 <AnMaster> whoa this is some good music that was added to wesnoth since last I checked (about a month or two ago=
22:39:43 <pikhq> Oleg 2's code makes my head hurt
22:40:06 <ehird95> oleg should change his name to that, Oleg 2
22:40:18 <Sgeo> Someone gave me a command to download the Wesnoth music some time ago, but I forgot it :(
22:40:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo, svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music
22:41:15 * AnMaster is listening to "northern_mountains.ogg" atm
22:41:32 <AnMaster> probably ehird95 wouldn't like it
22:41:45 <Sgeo> I have some Windows SVN thingy installed, so I'll just use that
22:42:35 <AnMaster> Sgeo, it may take some time. the whole checkout dir is 245 MB. So half of that size need to be download (yeah svn doesn't even store the pristine copies compressed or anything...)
22:42:38 <Sgeo> Why is this thing telling me 0 Bytes/sec
22:43:19 <Sgeo> How often do they add music?
22:43:34 <ehird95> ais523: does enigma work in 9x?
22:43:37 <AnMaster> Sgeo, varies. sometimes a few months, sometimes three in a single week
22:44:05 <ais523> "windows 95 and later", according to the website
22:44:09 <AnMaster> Sgeo, anyway, it grows overall slowly
22:44:20 <ais523> try http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/Enigma-1.01.exe
22:44:25 <ehird95> "The operating system I currently use on my primary computer is Windows 95 OSR2. Furthermore, not only do I use Windows 95 extensively, but I prefer it to Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP, and Vista."
22:44:31 <ehird95> So that makes 2 to 4 of them.
22:44:51 <Sgeo> How can Win98 be better than Win95?
22:44:56 <ais523> well, that's where it's hosted, do you want me to magic it somewhere else?
22:44:57 <Sgeo> erm, other way
22:45:05 <ehird95> Sgeo: The same way 98 can be better than ME.
22:45:06 <Sgeo> How can 95 be better than 98 in anyone's eyes?
22:45:13 <ais523> the only good thing about Windows 98 compared to 95 is USB support
22:45:15 <ais523> although, that is a big one
22:45:19 <ehird95> 98 replaced the beautiful, usable 95 Explorer with 98's bloated shitfest IEcrap explorer
22:45:26 <ehird95> added a bunch of unstable IE ""integration""
22:45:30 <AnMaster> ais523, did windows95 even support usb at all?
22:45:35 <ehird95> you can get usb support for win95
22:45:40 <ehird95> just a simple double-click away
22:45:43 <ais523> ehird95: ah, I didn't know that
22:45:47 <ais523> it certainly wasn't out-of-the-box
22:45:50 <ehird95> there are tons of drivers, yeah
22:46:02 <ehird95> anyway, AnMaster: them = people who use Windows 95 as a main OS and aren't hermits
22:46:05 <AnMaster> ehird95, doubt it would be very well integrated?
22:46:07 <pikhq> It was in Win 95B.
22:46:13 <ehird95> AnMaster: it's integrated just fine
22:46:20 <AnMaster> as in, able to handle all device classes and such
22:46:22 <ehird95> pikhq: 95B is with the stupid IE Explorer-replacement iirc
22:46:27 * Sgeo wonders if anyone still uses Win3.1 as a primary OS
22:46:52 <ehird95> OSR 2.5 = IE explorer = not really 95 any more
22:46:57 <ehird95> ais523: that berlios isn't loading
22:47:18 <AnMaster> <ehird95> ais523: that berlios isn't loading <-- guess why I said "eww" about berlios?
22:47:20 <ais523> try navigating from the directory?
22:47:23 <AnMaster> supertux used to be hosted there
22:47:50 <ehird95> supertux is a fairly sundry mario clone
22:47:56 <ehird95> it's nice if you like mario clones.
22:48:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? try it yourself. Not really working active on it any more
22:48:09 <ais523> <weenak> I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input.
22:48:22 <ehird95> The nice thing about Windows 95 is that you can run it wonderfully without any IE at all
22:48:25 <ais523> just picking a random comment out of context
22:48:36 <ehird95> You can't use .chms, sure, but how many are there in 95? Barely any. You can't use Outlook, thank god.
22:48:47 <ehird95> But everything else just works, including modern Word versions.
22:48:51 <fizzie> There were some custom very messy USB drivers in addition to the OSR 2 USB support. And I think that didn't include mass storage support by default, you had to use a third-party generic-enough driver for that. Could be wrong, though.
22:49:03 <Sgeo> ehird95, what about DS?
22:49:27 <ehird95> Sgeo: Docking station? It requires IE, I believe, although the DLLs I might still have from that stupid IE 4 installation I tried might still be there.
22:49:29 <fungot> ais523: despite sleeping in to 5:16.
22:49:49 <Sgeo> ehird95, you need another link to DS?
22:49:58 <ais523> ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm
22:50:08 <ehird95> If it does work, then it's just a matter of putting the relevant IE 4 DLL next to DS (so you don't have IE 4 crap in your system).
22:50:15 <Sgeo> Remind me to slap everyone who works for Wikia
22:50:28 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C
22:50:30 <ehird95> slap everyone who works for wikia
22:51:05 <ehird95> seamonkey illegal operation shutdown awesome!
22:51:29 <ais523> what's #esoteric's opinion on Wikia, by the way
22:51:34 <ais523> I need to know whether to like it or hate it
22:51:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> <weenak> I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input. <-- context please
22:52:03 <ais523> AnMaster: someone making the hello world a link to a youtube video when publishing a hello world on a website
22:52:13 <ehird95> AnMaster: Wikia are, simply, evil
22:52:17 <Sgeo> ais523, the Creatures wiki's opinion is hate it. They added junk to outgoing links, forcing most wikis to use a certain ad-filled theme
22:52:40 <ais523> junk to outgoing links?
22:52:47 <Sgeo> And took the creatureswiki.com domain name for themselves
22:52:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm <-- as usual
22:53:01 <ehird95> ais523: Wikia, for instance, fragment communities that want to split off because of their insistence on having about 5 ads per page (I'm not exaggerating) and forcing you to use the new, unusable Monaco theme. They say they want to split off, Wikia say: "You have fun. We won't have any links to you and we'll keep the wikia going."
22:53:13 <ehird95> ais523: And, that whole thing with the snatching creatureswiki.com and holding it from them.
22:53:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/
22:53:20 <Sgeo> ais523, you know how some websites have a redirect thing? They do that, so they can display ads when someone goes to an outbound link
22:53:23 <ais523> ehird95: I know that Wikia is one of the few sites that I cannot cope with visiting with Epiphany
22:53:37 <ais523> to bear to look at the thing
22:53:38 <ehird95> Wikia are one of the shittiest companies in existence; they have no empathy.
22:53:42 <ais523> the ads are really obnoxious
22:53:43 <AnMaster> with berlios you can at least know that there are stuff that is brken
22:53:50 <ehird95> At least they could be opaque about their evil-for-profit like Microsot.
22:54:09 <ehird95> AnMaster: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com
22:54:22 <ehird95> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/sourceforge.net
22:54:46 <AnMaster> ehird95, doesn't work. Maybe javascript?
22:54:51 <Sgeo> ais523, ehird95 gave a very good explanation of what wikia's doing
22:55:09 <ehird95> So just append the domain to the URL.
22:55:40 <AnMaster> ehird95, anyway doesn't help to answer "is svn on foo down"? or "is ssh down"?
22:55:44 <ais523> ehird95: that is a good site, although with an annoyingly long domain name
22:55:51 <ais523> I tried about:blank with it, though, and it got confused
22:56:03 <ais523> well, it tried to URL-encode the colon
22:56:04 <AnMaster> which for the only berlios site that is *NEVER* down, is rather nicely displayed on http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/
22:56:09 <ais523> then said it didn't look like a website
22:56:44 <AnMaster> and not an important one at all
22:56:45 <ehird95> AnMaster, calling out ais523 for reporting on an edge case failure
22:56:49 <ehird95> and calling it not important WHAT
22:57:00 <ais523> this is rather out-of-character for AnMaster...
22:57:02 <ehird95> WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE REAL ANMASTER?!
22:57:06 <AnMaster> ehird95, of course there are important edge cases too
22:57:13 <ehird95> Are you an abducting alien or something?!
22:57:24 <AnMaster> so it fits nicely with this channel kind of
22:57:45 <AnMaster> stop making my laugh so loud that I wake up people sleeping in the next room!
22:57:48 * oerjan adds a {{fact}} tag to wp's Malbolge article
22:58:45 <ehird95> AnMaster: me making you laugh?
22:58:50 <ehird95> ok, you're *definitely* not AnMaster
22:59:03 <ehird95> well, yes, but that's not odd
22:59:25 <AnMaster> ehird95 and yes, why did you turn funny suddenly
22:59:50 <ehird95> we abducted people in here
22:59:54 <ehird95> I abducted ehird95, for instance
22:59:59 <ehird95> then we wiped our brains to make us think we're them
23:00:14 <ehird95> I can think of no other simpler explanation. Occam's razor, I win.
23:00:56 <ais523> I think I'm acting in-character for me
23:01:04 <ais523> but I may be wrong, of course
23:01:09 <ehird95> yes, we had to put in a joke for ourselves, naturally
23:01:20 <ehird95> it makes perfect sense; what's the point of being just bewildered?
23:01:27 <ehird95> maybe we've never been amused before and this was the only way we had a chance.
23:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird95, this is rather in-character of you now ehird95
23:02:31 <AnMaster> but yeah the occasional "weird OS" is normal for you
23:02:32 <Sgeo> I'd ask if I'm acting in-character, but the question itself would be in-character
23:02:58 <AnMaster> that was actually rather funny
23:03:43 <oklofog> yeah he is usually pretty outsightful
23:03:58 <AnMaster> so I would say: By not asking, and observing that, you are not atcing in-character
23:04:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: because i would very much like someone to provide a citation for it ;)
23:04:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:04:57 <AnMaster> ehird95, ok that is not normal behaviour for you when things are too confusing.
23:05:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:06:06 <Sgeo> The sad thing is, I wasn't intending to be funny. I really was considering asking
23:06:40 <AnMaster> I wonder why there is no TCO label on my notebook. There is on my desktop monitor and some other stuff like my keyboard
23:07:04 * oerjan is reading irc in spurts, so answers are a bit delayed
23:07:05 <Sgeo> All I can think of when I see "TC0" is "THAC0"
23:07:12 <ais523> total cost of ownership?
23:07:21 <AnMaster> ais523, ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification
23:07:27 * oklofog is reading irc without thinking, so answers are a bit incomprehensible
23:07:37 <AnMaster> almost *every* computer monitor have one of those stickers
23:07:37 <Sgeo> Also, misreading O and 0
23:07:40 <oerjan> oklofog: that's banana!
23:07:41 <ais523> "sure, you can get a nice free keyboard from a shady open-source hardware dealer now. BUT AT WHAT COST?"
23:08:22 * ais523 gives up on trying to explain
23:08:27 <Sgeo> ...I actually understand what ais523 is saying
23:08:29 <ais523> ehird95 probably knows what I mean
23:08:31 <Sgeo> Yeah, I'm not me
23:08:35 * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets
23:08:38 <ehird95> i'm pretty sure AnMaster is the only person going eh right now
23:08:39 -!- jix has joined.
23:09:11 <AnMaster> * ais523 gives up on trying to explain <-- stop being ehird
23:09:20 <AnMaster> really really out of character for you
23:09:27 -!- mycrofti1 has quit ("leaving").
23:09:29 <oerjan> oklofog: nonmeasurable sets are vitali important
23:09:31 <oklofog> what's up with all the characters
23:09:32 <AnMaster> * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets <-- ooh interesting
23:09:48 <ais523> vaguely reminds me of a seminar I had recently
23:09:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well what FUD was you parodying
23:09:57 <ais523> someone was talking about brute-forcing infinite problems in finite time
23:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, the theory is that if you install Linux now it'll cost you more later, in things like training costs
23:10:14 <oerjan> oklofog: you will have to read your homework to find out
23:10:15 <oklofog> AnMaster: i need to find an example of two sets A<=R, B<=R s.t. m*(A \union B) < m*(A) + m*(B)
23:10:23 <ais523> and come to more than the cost of Windows altogether
23:10:28 <oklofog> the reading is just so i can do that
23:10:29 <AnMaster> ais523, hah. What has it got to do with hardware?
23:10:49 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway are you seriously suggesting you never heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification?
23:10:56 <oklofog> oerjan: i have read it well enough to'd remember if there were such a term :\
23:11:01 * Sgeo hasn't heard of it until now
23:11:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it hasn't, that was the joke
23:11:05 <oklofog> also did you like my use of "would"
23:11:11 <ais523> but you missed the joke because you missed the thing it was referencing
23:11:19 <AnMaster> ais523, oh ok. don't see why the joke was funny
23:11:20 <ehird95> ais523: I thought you gave up
23:11:25 <oklofog> well if there was such a term, in the material
23:11:38 <ais523> ehird95: I ungave up after you encouraged me
23:11:47 <ais523> but really, a joke that depends on a reference you don't know will never be funny
23:11:52 <ais523> because the explanation would ruin it
23:11:58 <oklofog> oerjan: actually it is mentioned
23:12:27 <AnMaster> <ais523> because the explanation would ruin it <-- jokes explained explained
23:12:39 <AnMaster> of course that goes far the other way
23:12:57 <oklofog> but it's just a small note at the beginning of the theorem
23:14:13 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained_explained.php
23:14:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, same level as last I looked then
23:15:09 <oerjan> well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously...
23:15:11 * ehird95 wonders... 2000 is nt just like nt 4, and nt 4 can run 95 stuff including a good portion of the explorer-type stuff
23:15:29 <ehird95> you could have the software support of 2000 with the 95 gui, almost :D
23:15:50 <AnMaster> <oerjan> well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously... <-- no I don't
23:16:26 <oerjan> i suppose the mezzacotta main page isn't very interesting most days
23:16:44 <Sgeo> "The Dangerous Symphony" would be a good name for an SCP
23:16:48 <AnMaster> ehird95, I remember when "software support of 2000" was sucky relative 9x
23:17:05 <ais523> Sgeo: it's the name of one of the Battle for Wesnoth background musics, IIRC
23:17:15 <Sgeo> ais523, yes, it is
23:17:23 <Sgeo> AnMaster, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com
23:17:36 <ais523> ugh, I can't decide whether Wikidot or Wikia is worse
23:17:47 <ehird95> ais523: Wikidot just suck hard, they aren't actively evil
23:17:53 <AnMaster> I wondered about that "The Dangerous Symphony"
23:17:57 <ehird95> AnMaster: Still, XP is where it's at for software support with an even vaguely NT 4-ish system; Chrome doesn't officially support 2000, for instance (though it works if you do an offline install).
23:18:03 <ais523> ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil
23:18:06 <ehird95> But XP+95 shell sounds very unlikely to work properly.
23:18:09 <ais523> have you seen the close box on it?
23:18:10 <oklofog> i think it's used implicitly here...
23:18:11 <ehird95> ais523: no, it's just incompetent
23:18:19 <oerjan> although you want to restrict it to unit interval, so (R/Z)/(Q/Z) might be more accurate
23:18:26 <ais523> ehird95: the terms of service ban using CSS or anything like that to remove it
23:18:29 <ehird95> ais523: they're not being manipulative sociopaths to lock people in, and forcing them to put 70 ads on one page, and locking them into one theme
23:18:38 <Sgeo> ais523, there's a close box?
23:18:39 <ehird95> and they're not trying to basically take people's wikis away from them
23:18:44 <ehird95> they're just incompetent and bad at marketing
23:18:47 <AnMaster> <ais523> ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil <--- what one?
23:18:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, go to any wikidot wiki (like the scp-wiki)
23:19:15 <ais523> instead, it's a link trying to get you to buy a paid account in order to hide the toolbar
23:19:15 <Sgeo> ais523, I don't even SEE a close box
23:19:24 <oklofog> oerjan: or you could just use an intersection
23:19:36 <AnMaster> well apart from the whole scp wiki
23:19:39 <oklofog> oh for the axiom of choice thing
23:19:45 <ais523> also, the individual pages in it (such as the history pages and what-links-heres) are unlikable
23:19:47 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit
23:19:48 <ehird95> [22:59] <AnMaster> can't see anything weird
23:19:48 <ehird95> [23:00] <AnMaster> well apart from the whole scp wiki
23:19:59 <oklofog> yeah maybe, i'm not actually reading, too tired for that, more like tasting the proof
23:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird95, yeah I remember seeing before.
23:20:20 <ais523> come to think of it, "unlikable" is also correct
23:20:20 <oklofog> i read it once already, but usually takes a few reads for measure theory to sink in
23:20:20 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit <-- hm? nothing unusual?
23:20:37 <Sgeo> ..that might explain it
23:20:54 <ehird95> he did that intentionally.
23:21:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I can try lynx or w3m too
23:21:05 <oklofog> oerjan: also i am closely following in your footsteps, was the only one to get homework problems 1 & 2 done1
23:21:12 <AnMaster> or if you want booooooring why not konqueror?
23:21:31 <Sgeo> I'd imagine it would show in konqueror
23:21:35 * ais523 watches Microsoft's Get The Facts video thing
23:21:57 <oklofog> although i suppose i might be following even closer if i was actually interested in the nondiscrete stuff
23:23:12 <ais523> "append fail count to end of command line (/fail=%1%)
23:23:30 <ais523> wow is that an inflexible API
23:23:44 <ais523> it's some auto-run-program-on-service-error thing
23:24:18 <AnMaster> very off colour from the rest of the browser
23:24:20 <ais523> trying to explain why IIS is more reliable than CentOS 5.0
23:24:22 <AnMaster> so doesn't really look irritating or such
23:24:36 <ais523> it means Apache, they said the OS rather than the app by mistake
23:24:38 <ehird95> the wikidot toolbar doesn't annoy me
23:24:40 <Sgeo> Ok, I see the Close toolbar button now
23:25:02 <Sgeo> AnMaster, go to another page
23:25:06 <ais523> ehird95: that's against the terms of service
23:25:17 <ais523> what a ridiculous rule
23:25:19 <Sgeo> Oh wait, maybe you need to be logged in
23:25:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yes I'm on another one. Be aware of that javascript is turned off.
23:25:28 <ehird95> i don't see any close button
23:25:41 <ais523> ehird95: doing something to your browser to hide the toolabr
23:25:45 <Sgeo> ehird95, are you logged into Wikidot?
23:26:13 <AnMaster> I don't even have an account there
23:26:33 <ais523> wait, they're trying to administer CentOS through the GUI?
23:27:10 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/2HLgi.png
23:27:48 <ais523> they're showing a pretty clear config file
23:27:59 <ais523> ehird95: breaks standard UI habit
23:28:06 <ais523> in that, I normally aim for the bottom toolbar
23:28:16 <ais523> adding another one confuses me and I have to slow down
23:28:30 -!- kar8nga has joined.
23:28:39 <ais523> ehird95: as in, whichever toolbar is lowest on the screen
23:28:48 <ais523> because I'm trained to look for the edges of client areas
23:30:33 <ehird95> nobody puts tab bars on the bottom
23:30:35 <ais523> making it harder to click on the tab bar is not a good thing
23:30:46 <ehird95> but the wikidot toolbar is at the top
23:30:51 <ehird95> so how can it slow you down
23:30:56 <ais523> I mean, lowest out of the things on top
23:31:06 <ais523> it's easier to hit the bottom toolbar of 3 than the third of 4
23:31:08 <ehird95> dude, it looks nothing like a toolbar.
23:31:12 <ehird95> it looks like web page content.
23:31:33 <ais523> it's toolbarish enough to fool my reflexes
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23:40:17 <fizzie> "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif
23:40:38 <Sgeo> fizzie, are you trying to blind us all?
23:41:38 <fizzie> Sgeo: Okay, next time I try to remember to use http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/tcpip2.gif which is easier on the eyes, at least as far as colors go.
23:42:06 <Sgeo> fizzie's trying to poison us with uglyui-poison
23:42:22 <fizzie> Would I -- http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif -- do such a thing?
23:47:35 <ehird95> I think I've just thought of the first troll linux distro.
23:51:00 <ehird95> I love how dinky the 95 start menu is
23:51:17 <ehird95> Also, is it just me, or is the fact I'm abbreviating it to 95 signalling that my brain really likes this thing?
23:55:43 <oerjan> "I'm a non-free OS, not a number!"
23:56:23 * ehird95 has embarrasingly not seen the prisoner.
23:56:40 * oerjan hasn't either. like with 99% of all other memes he passes on
23:57:56 <ehird95> today I have been putting in people's web logs that i'm using windows 95 :D
23:58:17 <ehird95> i'm sure all the statistics-gatherers will go "wtf" when they see that 1 figure, then pass it off as a forged one
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00:22:50 <FireFly> [00:40:16] <fizzie> "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif
00:22:54 <FireFly> Slightly confusing UI there
00:27:07 <Sgeo> ehird95, doesn't Anonym.OS pretend to be Win98?
00:27:51 <ehird95> Sgeo: What relevance has this statement?
00:28:09 <Sgeo> That some websites see Win98 in their statistics
00:28:23 <ehird95> (All those "lol sekurity" distros are retarded; single point of failure? You fail at security! Create this single point just to install Tor and GPG? You fail at life!)
00:28:28 <ehird95> Sgeo: Yes, but Windows 95?
00:28:58 <Sgeo> If "Windows 98" is a reasonable thing to pretend to be, why not Win95? Maybe there still are a few 95 users out there
00:29:25 <ehird95> "the system is designed to look like Windows XP SP1"
00:29:38 <Sgeo> I was mistaken
00:29:40 <ehird95> Using Anonym.OS is probably rarer than using 95, anyway.
00:30:13 <ehird95> But yes, there are, at least, two non-hermitty, internetty, savvy people who use 95 as their operating system.
00:31:15 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif <-- what the fuck
00:31:42 <AnMaster> http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif <-- not quite as bad
00:31:47 <ehird95> I estimate at least 30-50 people.
00:32:01 <ehird95> (are sane, savvy, non-hermitty, internetty and use windows 95 as their main os by choice)
00:32:11 <ehird95> AnMaster: are you serious?
00:32:18 <ehird95> it'd take five years just to go through every preference
00:32:36 <AnMaster> ehird95, "quite as bad, visually, as the first screenshot"
00:32:38 <ehird95> congratulations, now every single pixel is coloured to your specification, what's the app meant to be for again :P
00:33:03 <ehird95> The first one only counts if there are additional tabs with upside down text below those fields. :D
00:33:14 <ehird95> AnMaster: It's an app for configuration.
00:33:23 <ehird95> You configure how you can configure it.
00:33:45 <ehird95> For instance, you could turn those tabs into a list at the side in "User interface".
00:34:26 <AnMaster> <ehird95> You configure how you can configure it. <-- so you can configure it while you configure it?
00:34:33 <ehird95> Paul sent us this image of the Options dialog from MultiEdit 8.0. To date, we consider this the definitive example of how not to design a tabbed dialog. The sheer number of tabs, combined with the use of iconic labels and the gratuitous use of graphics on the tabs themselves results in a veritable visual assault. Once your eyes recover from the initial assault, you may be able to spot another problem: the use of nested tabs (note that two separate tabs on t
00:35:00 <ehird95> they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif
00:35:14 <ehird95> which is, err, still far too many preferences, but stil
00:35:39 * FireFly thinks lots of options is good when the options dialog has a search box
00:35:40 <ehird95> "While it is our belief that the proliferation of configuration options in MultiEdit has far exceeded the point of diminishing returns"
00:35:45 <ehird95> oh snap we think alike yes we do
00:36:06 <AnMaster> <ehird95> they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif <-- relatively speaking, quite acceptable
00:36:13 <ehird95> FireFly: i respect your opinion, just please never contribute to any software i might want to use :P
00:36:19 <ehird95> AnMaster: yep, it's a good redesign
00:36:42 <ehird95> I'd still probably take one look at the category list and install something else, though...
00:36:50 <AnMaster> but seriously what is the software for
00:36:57 <AnMaster> I assume that "<ehird95> AnMaster: It's an app for configuration. <ehird95> You configure how you can configure it." was a joke
00:37:13 <FireFly> Sounds like some text editor
00:37:22 <FireFly> Based on what stuff in the image says
00:37:30 <AnMaster> FireFly, but what about http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif then
00:37:32 <FireFly> Blocks, file extensions like c
00:37:45 <FireFly> Well yeah, that just looks pretty confusing
00:37:47 <ehird95> http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/ (old frameset'd site; click Hall of Shame).
00:37:52 <ehird95> It's a user interface, well, hall of shame.
00:37:57 <ehird95> Presumably from the Tabs category.
00:38:04 <AnMaster> "Isys Information Architects Inc. specializes in the design and development of robust, highly usable information systems. Isys focuses on ease of use, recognizing that software"
00:38:32 <AnMaster> "...should assist the user in the performance of some task rather than becoming a task in itself. "
00:38:47 <FireFly> ehird95, you can still copy the link Hall of Shame points to
00:38:57 <FireFly> though maybe not with whatever browser you're running on your -95
00:39:03 <ehird95> AnMaster: they didn't design those UIs.
00:39:07 <ehird95> AnMaster: It's in their Hall of Shame.
00:39:18 <ehird95> You know, where they mock bad UIs.
00:39:22 <ehird95> FireFly: that misses the sidebar
00:39:30 <ehird95> of which I wanted to point to Tabs
00:39:34 <ehird95> anyway, I'm using SeaMonke
00:39:47 <ehird95> which works perfectly well
00:40:06 <FireFly> Not some ancient IE at least
00:40:22 <ehird95> FireFly: I have, in fact, expunged all parts of IE apart from the actual mshtml DLLs.
00:40:54 <FireFly> This win95 box, is it a vbox, toy computer or something random you just found lying around?
00:40:54 <ehird95> If I do an installation on real hardware those would go too; who uses .chm on 95? :P
00:41:20 <ehird95> But I like this enough that a temptation is growing in me to buy an old tiny ThinkPad for fun purpose.
00:41:47 <ehird95> Gmail works fine. Admittedly it is running on a Core 2 Duo, but still, only 64MiB RAM.
00:41:49 <FireFly> My father threw out the old one
00:41:53 <ehird95> And we're talking a Mozilla Suite descendent here.
00:42:11 <FireFly> Appropriately low-speccy processor
00:42:17 <ehird95> i'll pay you five million bux
00:42:24 <FireFly> It actually ran DSL pretty fast
00:42:36 <ehird95> I have some sort of urge to acquire all the retro hardware in the world, ever
00:42:49 <ehird95> Surely the enjoyment scale is linear?
00:42:51 <FireFly> You'll find it hard to realise that dream :P
00:43:15 <FireFly> http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/olxerr.gif <-- Confusing error messages <3
00:45:13 <ehird95> FireFly: No but seriously, what old ThinkPad is it? I'm not so clued up on the old old ThPads despite looking at a bunch of new relatively ones.
00:45:32 <ehird95> 95 is so smooth when it's... smooth :P
00:47:27 <FireFly> Well, this isn't the 48M one, sadly enough
00:47:44 <FireFly> It says "570" next to the thinkpad logo when I open it at least
00:48:01 <ehird95> Wow, so before the letter-series.
00:48:06 <FireFly> Other than that.. I can't find any useful info, not even on the bottom
00:48:19 <ehird95> FireFly: That thing is ooooooold.
00:48:31 <FireFly> "Intel Mobile Pentium II 300, 333 or 366 CPU"
00:48:33 <ehird95> Mobile Pentium II 300/333/366
00:48:49 <ehird95> 12" 800x600 or 13" 1024x768, 64MiB RAM, 4/6.4GB HD...
00:48:59 <FireFly> I think we're reading the same infobox
00:49:22 <ehird95> I kinda have my eyes on the svelte http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20, but it's oh-so-overpowered for 95 and its ilk.
00:50:05 <FireFly> A laptop loses its usefulness if you can't run it without the cord plugged in
00:50:21 <ehird95> Which are we referring to here
00:50:29 <lament> FireFly: you can make it into a digital picture frame
00:50:30 <ehird95> The X20 does have a battery...
00:50:39 <FireFly> the one I have in front of me
00:50:42 <ehird95> Presumably so does the 570
00:50:47 <FireFly> I think the battery is quite dead or something like that
00:51:01 <ehird95> Makes a decent computery computer, though.
00:51:02 <FireFly> The computer hasn't been used in about a decade
00:51:12 <FireFly> Except from a couple of times the last few years
00:52:26 <ehird95> How can you have a nice x86-compat and not be using it all the time. My brain doesn't even have the logical formalizations to express such a concept :P
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05:45:32 <bsmntbombdood_> so what kind of hardware do you need to serve 50 200 kb files over http per second?
05:46:49 <pikhq> A system with at least 10MB RAM and an Ethernet port?
05:49:05 <Gregor> You'd be hard-pressed to find a network stack slower than that.
05:49:44 <pikhq> So, a C64 with an Ethernet port, then.
05:50:35 <Gregor> With a C64 your disk is mayhaps going to be too slow. Idonno how slow they were, but pretty slow.
05:50:45 <Gregor> With anything from a Tandy up, you're probably A-OK
05:50:49 <pikhq> Gregor: The disk was absurdly slow.
05:51:03 <pikhq> But a C64 can at least drive the Ethernet port sufficiently fast.
05:51:44 <Gregor> The question wasn't what kind of "networking hardware" you'd need, it was what kind of "hardware" you need.
05:54:11 <pikhq> But a C64 can do it.
05:54:53 <bsmntbombdood_> you might not even be able to get that through 100megabit ethernet with overhead
05:55:10 <pikhq> Oh, bytes, not bits. XD
05:55:49 <pikhq> Yeah, you need 100 megabit Ethernet for that. And believe me, you can get that through with overhead.
05:59:30 <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
05:59:44 <Gregor> But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P
06:00:10 <bsmntbombdood_> i don't have any other hosts up on this network to try
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08:43:01 <oklofog> i don't believe in hardware
08:52:37 <oklofog> and indexing is a stupid concept
08:52:52 <oklofog> i mean for arrays, also for databases, but for different reasons
08:55:34 <oklofog> even c++ iterators are prettier than code that uses arrays with indices.
08:55:54 <oklofog> maybe it's the fact numbers are involved
08:56:14 <oklofog> also i do like number theory, i find that slightly weird
08:57:41 <oklofog> although the basic number theory course i am on now is basically practical group & field theory
08:57:56 <oklofog> this is a very weird morning
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09:15:30 <deschutron> i would guess the thing you don't like about numbers is the symbols
09:24:08 <oklofog> for algorithms, the problem with indexes is they make the logic of an algorithm hard to follow
09:29:19 <oklofog> which i'm fine with, usually, except when i'm trying to actually read code
09:45:47 <oklofog> decided to check all the sorting algos on the wp list, actually bumped into a few new ones
09:46:01 <oklofog> anyway there was a haskell implementation on strand sort, that was refreshing
09:49:39 <oklofog> heh also bumped into one of our professors
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09:51:36 <oklofog> told another prof the other day i saw him in wp, he told me "yeah, seen it, should probably rewrite that crap some day"
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12:29:12 <oerjan> <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
12:29:29 <oerjan> <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
12:30:25 <oerjan> also, 0.1 bits is not much
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13:02:28 <oklofog> not even a bit much, if you ask me
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16:39:37 <Ilari> oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly.
16:41:08 <Ilari> If p is prime so that p - 1 has large prime factor and order of g is large mod p, then with very high probablilty calculating a from A, b from B or S1 or S2 from A and B is difficult.
16:44:45 <Ilari> oklofog: Another way to look at it: If kG is defined to be G + G + ... + G (k G's), G is element of some group: Alice generates 0 < a < orderof(G), computes A = aG and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < orderof(G), computes B = bG and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = aB and Bob can compute S2 = bA. Now if all goes well, S1 = S2.
16:52:36 <AnMaster> oh great ubuntu: "Please insert a blank cd." <-- yeah I did, it claims there isn't though... Time for cd record
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17:12:31 <AnMaster> After burning a cd that I selected to verify...: Didn't find media in drive. Please insert media. [load] [eject] [force] [cancel]
17:13:02 <AnMaster> oh btw the reason that it just didn't pull it back in itself is that this is a laptop drive
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17:23:28 <oklofog> Ilari: in other words discrete logarithm is suspected to not belong to FP
17:23:50 <oklofog> AnMaster: complete language of lojban
17:26:33 <oklofog> also i don't know diffie-hellman, we have a separate set of cryptography courses for that stuff
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17:27:19 <oklofog> well, they mentioned discrete logarithm is hard to do, but i knew that beforehand
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17:51:28 <Ilari> Functional Polynomial Time
17:57:44 <Ilari> FP: f(x,y) -> boolean, solve for y such that f(x,y) is true, is in FP if there is determisitic polynomial time algorithm that for every x: 1) f(x,y) is solvable in polynomial time, 2) If there exists y such that f(x,y) is true, output some such y, 3) If there is no y such that f(x,y) is true, output that there's no solution.
17:58:34 <Ilari> Idea is: Functions evaluable in polynomial time where there may be more output than just single boolean.
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18:00:53 <Ilari> oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...).
18:02:13 <Ilari> For Z_p*, with p - 1 having at least one large enough factor, the discrete log problem is approximately as hard as factoring numbers on order of p.
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18:07:53 <Ilari> (The generic attack against group dlog has runtime proportional to sum of square roots of prime factors of group order).
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18:27:17 <AnMaster> <Ilari> oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...). <-- too hard on current hardware or too hard in some other sense?
18:28:50 <AnMaster> (say, theoretical limit of some sort)
18:31:46 <Ilari> Too hard on current hardware.
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18:40:24 <AnMaster> Ilari, can you panellise it in any way?
18:55:48 <Ilari> It probably can be paralelized. But 2^80 work is still too huge for today's hardware... Its equivalent to cracking DES with brute force tens of millions of times...
18:55:59 <AnMaster> 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7
18:57:22 <Ilari> And already there's move towards elliptic groups of size ~2^224 (~2^112 work) or ~2^256 (~2^128 work).
18:58:21 <Ilari> 128 hex characters -> 512 bits.... Some SHA-512 hash?
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19:00:48 <AnMaster> for en_windows_7_professional_x64_dvd_X15-65805.iso
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19:05:36 <Ilari> Heh... Some SHA-3 candidates have 1024-bit outputs with enough pipe width for it.
19:06:54 <Ilari> The standard output sizes are 224, 256, 384 and 512, but some have more output sizes than those.
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19:09:52 <Ilari> AnMaster: There's SHA-224...
19:10:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes a bit strange width
19:11:36 <Ilari> Don't know how it got to SHA-2. At least SHA-3 requirements have it because SHA-2 has 224-bit mode.
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19:14:00 <Ilari> Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks).
19:14:53 * Rugxulo never heard of SHA-3, only that SHA-1 is deprecated and SHA-2 was recommanded ... or so he thought
19:15:42 <Ilari> The SHA-3 is selected by competition (like AES was). There's currently 14 candidates for it.
19:16:43 <Rugxulo> I know CRC32 is lame, but isn't there some new cpu that supports it (but different poly)?
19:16:48 <Ilari> Breaks as in: Take E.g. Skein with 1024 bit pipe and 2048 bit output. One can do 2st preimage against that in ~2^1024 time just by brute force...
19:18:30 * Rugxulo bets the IBM Roadrunner could brute force most stuff ...
19:18:52 <Ilari> How many PFLOPS it has?
19:19:07 <Rugxulo> I dunno, lemme check Wikipedia ...
19:19:58 <Rugxulo> reached 1.026 on may 25, 2008
19:20:34 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibm_roadrunner
19:21:34 <Ilari> Say 2PFLOPS. Thats 2^51 FLOPS. In year, 2^76 FLOP.
19:22:01 <Ilari> Still, those computers are probably optimized for floating point and not as great in integer math.
19:22:19 <Rugxulo> standard Opterons and Cells (bunch of 'em)
19:23:40 <Rugxulo> 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs
19:23:46 <Rugxulo> 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-cores
19:23:47 <Ilari> Even that couldn't bruteforce 80-bit symmetric encryption...
19:24:27 <Ilari> PowerXCell 8i's are improved version of Cell (don't suck in Double-precision floating point).
19:24:57 * Rugxulo heard the Cell is a pain to program for
19:25:16 <Rugxulo> plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P
19:25:40 * Rugxulo shakes fist even though doesn't care
19:25:48 <Ilari> Yeah, the SPUs are bizarre compared to ordinary processors.
19:26:00 <Ilari> Plus they only have 256KiB directly accessable memory.
19:26:10 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks). <-- why does it break?
19:27:07 <Ilari> AnMaster: Exceed pipe size and it starts to lose information. E.g. Skein-1024-2048 only has ~2^1024 possible outputs.
19:27:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, so it gets worse after that?
19:27:50 <AnMaster> or just no better than below that limit
19:28:37 <Ilari> No better going above the limit. Also, some constructions start breaking already before the full pipe size is reached.
19:29:08 <AnMaster> I don't know a lot about these sort of things
19:29:10 <Ilari> Internal state carried between "blocks".
19:30:09 <Ilari> Term "Wide pipe" refers to pipe being wider than output (usually in wide pipe design, pipe is twice the output size).
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19:33:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, what is the pipe width of SHA-2?
19:33:04 <Ilari> All practical hashes have constant state size (usually state includes buffer for current block, byte/bit counter and chaining value "pipe").
19:33:23 <Ilari> 256 for 224/256-bit output, 512 for 384/512-bit output.
19:33:37 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P <-- why?
19:33:37 <Ilari> SHA-1 has 160 bit output and pipe.
19:34:23 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, I think 'cause they claim it's not worth the effort to upgrade the firmware (or some lame reason)
19:34:46 <Ilari> SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast...
19:34:53 <Rugxulo> some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales) for clusters, instead preferring only gamers (who buy games, where they make back the money)
19:35:16 <Ilari> AnMaster: 384 is average of 256 and 512 (maybe)?
19:35:36 <AnMaster> <Ilari> SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast... <-- huh?
19:35:48 <Rugxulo> CRC32 and Adler32 are really fast, no? but yeah I know they aren't very secure (if at all)
19:37:03 <Ilari> Yeah, something like 3 cycles per byte...
19:37:55 <Rugxulo> don't some VIA chips have a SHA(-1?) instruction?
19:39:26 <Ilari> One of the hashes in competition has reported speed of ~3.6 clocks/byte (512-bit, 64-bit host).
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19:48:22 <Ilari> When it comes to encryption algorithms, ridiculous key sizes are good sign of snake oil algorithms...
19:50:19 <Ilari> 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category...
19:52:00 <Rugxulo> and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-)
19:53:59 <Gregor> I have 103TiB of RAM in my toaster.
19:54:56 <Gregor> Of course, my toaster scans the bread into its memory banks, then produces computationally and generates it from its bank of raw organic matter.
19:55:11 <Gregor> *produces toast computationally
19:55:29 <Ilari> Because what is currently known about physics says that bruteforcing 256-bit keys is impossible.
19:55:58 <Gregor> deschutron: I plan to generalize it though.
19:56:10 <Gregor> I'd like for it to pickle things, too.
19:56:30 <deschutron> Does it use a brute force algorithm to calculate the best toast?
19:58:01 <ais523> deschutron: oh, I saw your quasi-Feather thing, it's rather unlike Feather, but ofc that doesn't mean it's a bad lang
19:58:12 <ais523> I think pretty much every entity in existence is rather unlike Feather
19:58:51 <deschutron> I had a feeling it was unlike feather but still good
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20:00:23 <deschutron> Good luck in your quest to define Feather
20:01:19 <Ilari> Just calculating all the possible keys would require ~5*10^54 J of energy (that's approximately the mass energy in 25 million solar masses).
20:11:56 <AnMaster> <Ilari> 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category... <-- what about asymmetric ones?
20:13:12 <AnMaster> deschutron, what was your quasi-feather thing?
20:13:58 <AnMaster> one good thing with dual core is that when something is hogging one CPU you can still easily kill it
20:13:58 <deschutron> its a language I thought of after talking to ais523 about feather
20:14:08 <FireFly> What, more feather thingies?
20:14:33 <deschutron> it's a prototyped language where you set the initial state of variables rather than their current states
20:14:40 <deschutron> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather
20:16:11 <Ilari> Depends on base problem. 1024-bit EC key is about 2^512 effort to crack (generic classic attacks can't touch it). 1024-bit discrete is ~2^80 effort (already starting to become too short).
20:18:36 <Ilari> AnMaster: RSA falls into "discrete" class.
20:19:04 <Ilari> DH/DSS is discrete ECDH/ECDSS is EC
20:20:43 <Ilari> GPG can also use DSA2, which defines 2048 (112 bit equivalent) and 3072 (128 bit equivalent) bit keylengths.
20:21:58 <Ilari> DSA2 differs from standard DSA only in that it uses longer keys and SHA-2 hash functions.
20:24:48 <AnMaster> deschutron, wow that lang looks great
20:25:23 <AnMaster> deschutron, everything but the java-like syntax
20:25:43 <FireFly> Also, it had a typo in one of the examples, the method finalize/finalized was called the wrong thing somewhere
20:26:18 <AnMaster> 1. Variables may be partially defined. 2. You must define a variable with assignment operators, like in a normal imperative p programming language.
20:27:33 <AnMaster> deschutron, I like the partial variables
20:27:43 <AnMaster> however I wonder if this may not make it very very hard to execute
20:28:16 <AnMaster> "Because of this bahviour, and the general treatment of contradictions, I suspect D.Quasifeather is a declarative programming language. "
20:29:04 <FireFly> Bleh, just autocompleted and supposed it'd be correct :P
20:29:19 <FireFly> Didn't notice the language prefix and nick were different
20:30:06 <deschutron> The interpreter (or compiled program) has to store constraints for partially defined variables.
20:30:16 <deschutron> Then it can use a function to check assignments against its stored constraints.
20:30:23 <AnMaster> deschutron, anyway... I suspect you could use partial variable stuff to crack asymetric ciphers
20:30:37 <AnMaster> <Ilari> oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly.
20:31:04 <AnMaster> so make a and b partial variables
20:32:03 <AnMaster> deschutron, it might thus be rather hard to make an implementation of your language
20:32:08 <deschutron> but it I don't think it can do anything existing constraint programming languages can't do
20:32:59 <AnMaster> deschutron, can you branch based on partial variable?
20:33:10 <AnMaster> but you claim it to be TC so...
20:33:27 <AnMaster> [spawned Bob; Bob.foo(); (the rest of the loop's code occurs inside the foo() method)
20:33:46 <AnMaster> thus the loop is never entered
20:34:44 <oklofog> Ilari: why do you know so much?
20:35:03 <AnMaster> deschutron, in bf? when the current cell is 0
20:36:08 <deschutron> oh I forgot [ jumps to the end of the loop if the cell is zero
20:43:47 <deschutron> i think I've found the solution to that problem
20:47:00 <oklofog> i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart.
20:47:02 <deschutron> if Bob.foo() is a recursive method, and it checks the value at the start of the method
20:47:55 <deschutron> then it can exit the loop from its beginning in the same way as a Brainfuck loop
20:48:33 <oklofog> someone link entfedern for the lazy? :|
20:48:58 <oklofog> by which i mean deschutron's feather
20:49:39 <oklofog> well not so much lazy as internet slowly working having.
20:50:00 <deschutron> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather
20:50:05 <oklofog> actually more like internet being broken just noticing
20:50:11 <AnMaster> <oklofog> i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart. <-- are they?
20:50:33 <AnMaster> <oklofog> someone link entfedern for the lazy? :| <-- "entfedern"?
20:51:49 <oklofog> AnMaster: i consider Ilari, Deewiant and fizzie` smarter than me, dunno about keymaker, irl people are stupid; i consider many others here less smart than me, but not saying finns actually have the lead.
20:52:25 <oklofog> also it's a vector quantity, most aren't comparable
20:52:39 <deschutron> Partial variables can be branched on. e.g. "b = sign(a); b = 1; a = 0;" causes time-sealing.
20:53:30 <oklofog> deschutron: those, at least
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20:54:03 <AnMaster> oklofog, don't you prefer non-classical music?
20:54:45 <oklofog> AnMaster: mostly i like songs without singing; metal, classic, all sorts of noise, some jazz...
20:55:49 <AnMaster> oklofog, you never heard that Mozart makes you smart? ;P
20:55:53 <oklofog> german entfedern, afaik, means "to rip off feathers", loosely translated
20:56:20 <oklofog> i'm sure you all got the joke
20:56:22 <AnMaster> oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something?
20:56:34 <oklofog> AnMaster: but i like mozard
20:57:06 <AnMaster> oklofog, oh? I thought you didn't like that sort of classical music?
20:57:23 <oklofog> deschutron: you should check it means that first :P
20:58:06 <oklofog> iirc "ent" is a prefix for something like "away", "federn" being "to feather"
20:58:29 <oklofog> AnMaster: mozart has instrumentals
20:59:14 * AnMaster notes his old Soundblaster Live! 5.1 PCI card is able to put out *noticeable* more bass than either the on-board VIA sound chipset in the same computer or the on-board Intel chipset in the laptop
20:59:25 <oklofog> also he has human sung stuff that is pretty complex, almost instrumental
20:59:36 <AnMaster> using same mixer settings (as far as they are found) and same high quality headphones
21:00:06 * pikhq notes that the SB Live! was a good card.
21:00:12 <AnMaster> high quality == studio quality here
21:00:22 <oklofog> "AnMaster: oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something?" <<< it was in verb form, "to do that"
21:01:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:01:32 <AnMaster> but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays
21:01:40 <AnMaster> so will be an issue for my next computer
21:01:52 <AnMaster> plus SB Live! has hardware mixer and hardware midi
21:02:29 <deschutron> just tried to look it up, i found entfernen "to remove, strip off" and feder "feather", but no "entfedern"
21:02:37 <Ilari> Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult.
21:03:05 <pikhq> My SB Live! finally gave up the smoke earlier this year.
21:03:19 <AnMaster> deschutron, don't know German, but in Swedish (same language group) you can basically freely create new words by concatenation of the right things.
21:03:57 <AnMaster> there is basically no upper length limit apart from how long your breath lasts. Theoretically. No one would do that due to it being unreasonable
21:04:18 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult. <-- hm :/
21:05:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, that seriously sucks a lot
21:05:19 <oklofog> deschutron: it's possible you wouldn't find it in a webdict, my friend's dictionary contains, for some reason, tons of these really weird hunting terms
21:05:40 <oklofog> entfedern sounds like it might be one of those
21:06:19 <Ilari> Since DC coupling to output is not possible (signaficant DC components fry amplifiers) and AC coupling is inheritly bandpass.
21:06:35 <oklofog> pikhq: i decide to interpret that as you giving up smoking, because you smoking is such a weird thought
21:07:05 <Ilari> Just use large enough decoupling capacitors to push the lower freq limit down.
21:07:26 <Ilari> Or build higher-powered amplifier.
21:07:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
21:07:34 <AnMaster> Ilari, how comes you know this sort of stuff
21:07:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, plus I have the volume rather low to not damage my hearing
21:07:50 <oklofog> yeah Ilari, how do you know so much
21:07:58 <AnMaster> I just want accurate representation of the sound at that volume
21:08:26 <Ilari> One friend told that faulty sound card fried his external amplifier with overly large DC component.
21:08:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, I wouldn't want my headphones to fry when I'm using them
21:09:36 <Ilari> If they are passive, any reasonable DC component probably won't fry them. But active headphones are different matter.
21:09:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, how do I tell the difference?
21:10:57 <deschutron> i just understood how my language might crack the Diffie-Hellman point raised earlier
21:11:05 <AnMaster> http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][showUID]=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][backPID]=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1
21:11:14 <deschutron> I guess implementations of my language should just accept that there's some things they can't calculate, even if they do have all the information
21:11:17 <AnMaster> oklofog, in headphones? never seen that
21:11:49 <oklofog> deschutron: there's nothing wrong with being able to write a program to crack DH. you can do that in any lang
21:12:28 <Ilari> AnMaster: I have wireless headphones. These do have batteries. Still wired headphones with batteries are probably rare.
21:12:44 <AnMaster> these definitely doesn't have headphones
21:12:45 <oklofog> AnMaster: i don't know the definition of "active", i just know our bass player has an "active bass", and it has batteries.
21:12:58 <pikhq> oklofog: "gave up the smoke" means that the magic smoke came loose from the bord. ;)
21:13:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, every time I thought that happened it was the damn complex alsa mixer settings that were off
21:13:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, since you had such a card you know what I mean
21:13:54 <AnMaster> like recently when it turned out mute was on for the right channel
21:14:06 <oklofog> pikhq: My SB Live! (correct use of the interjection?)
21:14:27 <AnMaster> oklofog, the product is called "Soundblaster Live!"
21:14:53 <AnMaster> it is rather irritating when a product name contains a "!
21:14:54 <oklofog> maybe, maybe sometimes my jokes are so complicated they aren't even funny.
21:15:30 <oklofog> AnMaster: and yeah, i know that
21:15:33 <deschutron> oklofog: you're right. however i don't want it to do it unexpectedly because the programmer made a certain set of assignments
21:16:06 <oklofog> well, i don't know it, i deduced it.
21:17:09 <deschutron> well actually, i'm not sure i don't want it to
21:18:03 <oklofog> also the interjection joke was a continuation of the earlier one, i clearly parsed it as some sort of "OMG", to have understood the giving up the smoke as pikhq quitting smoking, not sure that was obvious
21:18:26 <oklofog> at least AnMaster didn't get it, so explaining is justified
21:19:30 <oklofog> deschutron: stuff can hang unexpectedly in any language, if you don't know what you're doing
21:21:15 <deschutron> AnMaster: I always pronounce those "!"s
21:21:17 <deschutron> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postalveolar_click
21:21:27 <oklofog> of course the more high level and declarative, the more this will depend on the implementation
21:22:40 <deschutron> yes, unexpectedly hanging on the programmer isn't a problem now as I see it. this case at least would not happen too often
21:23:27 <deschutron> you would probably have to implement diffie hellman, and the ask out of curiosity what the other party's private key is
21:24:19 <AnMaster> deschutron, please upload a recording where you pronounce "Soundblaster Live! 5.1"
21:24:19 <deschutron> there is the problem that the language assumes that if there is enough information to calculate something, then it has access to the answer
21:26:15 <oklofog> deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ...
21:26:17 <deschutron> to satisfy that assumption, the language might have to be able to use all sorts of algorithms for unusual situations
21:26:49 <oklofog> you *should* be able to ask stuff that takes too long to calculat.
21:27:10 <deschutron> well if it only takes too long, it shouldn't be a problem
21:27:31 <deschutron> i only care now about how long i takes to implement the language
21:28:43 <oklofog> you can just start a brute force thread for every query, write special algos for some cases
21:29:00 * ais523 proves Norfuck Turing-incomplete
21:29:14 <ais523> being able to simulate finite subsets of rule 110 does not make a program TC...
21:29:16 <oklofog> don't link, internet don't flow.
21:29:17 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Norfuck
21:29:23 <ais523> oh, it basically has 3 commands
21:29:28 <ais523> >: move pointer to the right
21:29:59 <ais523> <: if current cell is 1, set internal state to true (otherwise leave it the same), move pointer to first cell
21:30:11 <ais523> !: set current cell to inverse of internal state, set internal state to false, move pointer to first cell
21:30:23 <ais523> and it has a tape of booleans
21:30:28 <ais523> and 1 bit of internal state
21:30:32 <AnMaster> <oklofog> deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ...
21:30:47 <AnMaster> after all that is same as the legacy xrange
21:31:02 <AnMaster> and range is same as the old xrange
21:31:04 <oklofog> and i'm not using python 3 because it's stupid
21:31:20 <ais523> clearly Turing-incomplete due to finite accessible memory
21:31:25 <ais523> although I think it's a universal FSM
21:31:36 <oklofog> AnMaster: i don't remember.
21:31:39 <deschutron> i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete
21:31:48 <oklofog> some detail that made me debug a program for ages
21:32:02 <oklofog> integer division got its own operator
21:32:47 <oklofog> i tried it once, and got pissed, it's probably better in every way.
21:32:55 <AnMaster> oklofog, I like the python 2.5-and-later syntax for ?: foo if condition else bar
21:33:35 <AnMaster> <deschutron> i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete <-- eh?
21:33:57 <oklofog> well i don't really like python anymore... or any language except a few nonexistant ones of my own, but umm isn't that from perl
21:34:15 <AnMaster> oklofog, maybe. I don't know perl
21:34:52 <oklofog> ais523: does it have loops
21:35:00 <ais523> oklofog: program repeats when it ends
21:35:03 <ais523> so it has just the one loop
21:35:35 <oklofog> someone should really define turing completeness
21:35:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> although I think it's a universal FSM <- how do you prove it?
21:35:49 <AnMaster> oklofog, being able to do everything an UTM can
21:35:53 <ais523> AnMaster: compile some other FSM to it
21:36:14 <ais523> oklofog: an FSM that any other FSM can be compiled to
21:36:15 <AnMaster> oklofog, I was hoping to ask that indirectly
21:36:24 <ais523> well, and FSM description language that any FSM can be described in
21:36:28 <ais523> I was being sloppy with language
21:36:42 <oklofog> AnMaster: doesn't really help with the finite/infinite issue
21:37:13 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose you have a language in which you can reasonably write an infinitely long program
21:37:22 <oklofog> AnMaster: proofs of 110 and ais523's tm require infinite starting conditions
21:37:24 <ais523> even cat is TC by your definition
21:37:37 <ais523> the issue is, /which/ infinite starting conditions do you need?
21:37:38 <oklofog> the tm requires a rather complex starting pattern
21:37:47 <AnMaster> it isn't able to do everything that a UTM can
21:37:52 <oklofog> there is no definition for whether that's allowed
21:37:56 <AnMaster> well I was sloppy with langauge
21:38:05 <ais523> what you do is, you run all possible programs in parallel
21:38:13 <ais523> whenever any produces output, you write the program and its output to a file
21:38:16 <ais523> then, you feed that file to cat
21:38:21 <ais523> see, cat can do anything a UTM can
21:38:38 <ais523> the issue is, that input is far too complex to demonstrate TCness with; the TCness is in the input, not the lang itself
21:38:53 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Lets say then "Being equivalent to an UTM"
21:39:11 <ais523> I had a big row with Professor Pratt about whether it's possible to get TC behaviour from a sub-TC-generable input fed into a sub-TC language
21:39:12 <oklofog> that really isn't a definition.
21:39:32 <ais523> he isn't sure on the issue, and thinks it isn't obvious either way
21:39:55 <oklofog> the profs here that prove undecidability for a living, at least, say there's no actual definition
21:40:12 * oerjan notes ais523 ninjaed him on Norfuck but posts his comment anyhow
21:40:18 <ais523> at least, you can give necessary and sufficient definitions
21:40:20 <AnMaster> how can there be no definition?
21:40:22 <ais523> but unfortunately they aren't the same
21:40:28 <ais523> in-between, mathematicians disagree
21:40:48 <Deewiant> 2009-10-03 23:01:32 ( AnMaster) but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays
21:41:03 <Deewiant> That was what I was trying to respond to
21:41:23 -!- ehird has joined.
21:41:43 <ehird> SeaMonkey on 95 crashes a lot, so I'm back using my host OS.
21:41:54 <ais523> why not just use Opera/
21:42:18 <ehird> ais523: Opera crashes less, admittedly, but it's slower and also freezes the computer more.
21:42:26 <ehird> (Opera 9; Opera 10 also uses all my system resources.)
21:42:40 <AnMaster> ehird, freezing computer counts as crashing doesn't it?
21:42:48 <ehird> Not if it unfreezes.
21:43:33 <ehird> Yeah; hard to believe, eh?
21:43:37 <oklofog> AnMaster: it's kinda hard to find a definition without deciding on a formalism.
21:43:48 <FireFly> Well, I'm used to Opera being pretty fast
21:43:58 <ehird> The full bloated Mozilla Suite and Gecko vs a light-weight, snappy browser that has a reputation of working on older hardware.
21:44:02 <ehird> Of course the first is faster!
21:44:17 <ehird> I guess Windows 95 isn't much of a target platform, though.
21:44:26 <AnMaster> it is sad that microsoft didn't stick to 9x design
21:44:36 <ehird> GUI-wise, yes. Kernel-wise, fuck no
21:44:40 <ehird> 9x is unstable as shit
21:44:52 <AnMaster> why? Because then Linux and OS X would have ruled the world by now
21:45:07 <ehird> deschutron: text or other?
21:45:09 <ehird> if other filebin.ca
21:45:10 <oklofog> the original "definition" was you have a finite pattern plus padding, which isn't really a formal definition without a definition of what is considered padding; and also that definition disallows the kinds of proofs used for 110 and aismachine
21:45:13 <ehird> if text pastebin.ca
21:45:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Nobody much switched to Linux because of 9x.
21:45:29 <ehird> deschutron: if image imgur.com
21:45:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably because 9x booted really quickly and Linux didn't catch up until this decade.
21:45:49 <ehird> deschutron: filebin.ac
21:45:57 <ehird> AnMaster: So 9x crashing is less important :-P
21:46:30 <AnMaster> ehird, if MS had stuck to 9x still at this time though
21:46:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to see you run windows ME for a bit :P
21:46:59 <ehird> Games, inertia etc. MS would have been here to stay unless they made something totally unusable, which they've never done.
21:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: I did for years.
21:47:15 <ehird> Yes, it crashes a lot with most hardware, but it's tolerable to a point.
21:47:37 <ehird> A totally unusable OS would never get past MS' gates (har har) purely because, well, they *do* test these things.
21:47:47 <deschutron> http://filebin.ca/jxpepe/soundblasterlive!.mp3
21:47:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It sort of scarred me.
21:48:04 <ehird> deschutron: Soundblaster?? Is this whole channel casting a retro-fad spell?
21:49:06 <AnMaster> deschutron, why do you pronounce it like that
21:49:08 <ehird> Channels be spiritual entities.
21:49:27 <deschutron> because then the exclamation mark has a point.
21:49:48 <AnMaster> deschutron, why the american sound
21:49:53 <deschutron> it has become a letter and not a punctuation mark, and is therefore completely out of place
21:50:31 <deschutron> if it comes up again, i will use received pronunciation then
21:50:52 <AnMaster> deschutron, I was just making fun of US English. No offence meant .
21:51:17 <AnMaster> deschutron, oh? Sounds like US English
21:51:29 <AnMaster> deschutron, maybe the lack of "gday mate" mislead me
21:51:38 <ehird> 21:59:30 <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
21:51:38 <ehird> 21:59:44 <Gregor> But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P
21:51:43 <ehird> like older than 2000
21:51:44 <pikhq> ehird: I really do wish Microsoft stuck with a 95-esque interface. That was a very usable UI. Not the nicest-looking thing ever, but Microsoft's track record with aesthetics is such that I prefer utilitarian over their idea of "beauty". ;)
21:52:19 <deschutron> americans would say blaster differently, right? like a long form of the 'a' in cat
21:52:25 <ehird> the widgets were usable enough. I'm not going to glorify it, though; 95's design ran into a wall, both GUI-wise and kernel-wise.
21:52:36 <ehird> Microsoft's been just running around aimlessly since.
21:52:45 <ehird> Now to find out what the context of this conversation is.
21:52:57 <pikhq> A few lines up about 10 minutes ago.
21:53:05 <deschutron> microsoft's been investing a bit into touch screen devices, apparently
21:53:10 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.03 ;; that first oklopol monologue is art
21:53:18 <pikhq> I did some stack munging. w00ts.
21:53:43 <ais523> "i don't believe in hardware"
21:54:11 <pikhq> ... Array indexing?
21:54:15 <ehird> 04:29:29 <oerjan> <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
21:54:16 <ehird> 04:29:45 <oerjan> what the heck
21:54:36 <pikhq> You mean there's something other than <$>?
21:54:42 <Gregor> oerjan was what-the-hecking at 100millibit :P
21:54:47 <pikhq> (/fmap/map/liftM2...)
21:55:23 <AnMaster> deschutron, tell me... do you understand: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3
21:56:11 <ehird> i can hear a few words, but i can't make out words in singing usually. sounds perfectly comprehensible to me, though.
21:56:34 <ehird> well you didn't specify.
21:56:56 <AnMaster> first it is easy to understand
21:57:00 <AnMaster> but then it gets worse and worse
21:57:08 <oerjan> _actually_, the what the heck was about my double pasting, my old senile three year old computer does weird freeze ups close to startup
21:57:38 <oerjan> so it didn't register the first paste, and i thought i'd forgotten to press ^C
21:57:44 <ehird> well okay this is pretty meaningless.
21:58:30 <ehird> 10:55:59 <AnMaster> 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7
21:58:34 <ehird> YOUR NEW PGP KEY EH
21:59:12 <ehird> 11:08:45 --- join: Rugxulo (n=user@nmd.mcd01412.hou.wayport.net) joined #esoteric
21:59:12 <ehird> 11:09:22 * Rugxulo is at McDonalds
21:59:21 <ehird> most embarrassing hostname ever?
21:59:32 <ais523> what's wrong with that hostname?
21:59:43 <ehird> it identifies you as being at mcdonalds
22:00:32 <ehird> so anyway, I wonder what fun OS I should try now
22:00:38 <ehird> hmm... maybe the last BeOS
22:00:43 <ehird> see what all the fuss is about
22:01:47 <AnMaster> ehird, so hard is it to understand that podcast?
22:02:06 <ehird> Well, obviously. I doubt it'd be easy for an Australian, either.
22:02:34 <AnMaster> which is why I asked deschutron
22:08:09 -!- Azstal has joined.
22:08:44 <deschutron> so you see the in the history of the Australian dialect, apparently, there was a guy who went around causing all kinds of trouble. and then the presenter driving through the country at some point, and he found a mechanic, who was completely drunk, and had dinner with him.
22:08:58 <ehird> you must be making this up X_X
22:09:04 <deschutron> ^ s/presenter driving/presenter was driving/
22:09:20 <ehird> I couldn't even understand regular english talked that quickly
22:09:31 <deschutron> this is an important story in our dialectic history
22:09:44 <AnMaster> deschutron, you mean you understand it?
22:10:00 -!- frater_aleph has joined.
22:10:03 <AnMaster> there is a transcript at http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast007.html
22:10:12 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit).
22:10:21 -!- frater_aleph has joined.
22:12:30 <ehird> what're you talking about :|
22:12:51 <AnMaster> frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on
22:13:06 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:13:07 <AnMaster> and I have no clue what "R+C" is either
22:13:09 <ehird> we should move to #esoterica and have lots more fun with people mistaking it
22:13:15 <ehird> well that got rid of him
22:13:24 <AnMaster> ehird, or just connection issues
22:13:29 -!- frater_aleph has joined.
22:13:38 <ehird> Hi frater_aleph, what is R+C.
22:13:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on
22:14:40 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAR DINOSAURS
22:14:47 <ehird> Dinosaurs with inquiring minds want to know what R+C is.
22:15:00 <ehird> You wouldn't ignore a dinosaur would you? Because that would be fatal.
22:15:07 <ehird> oerjan: The ? is the ELEMENT OF SUSPENSE
22:15:12 <ehird> frater_aleph: WHAT IS R+C
22:15:17 <AnMaster> frater_aleph, I have no clue what R+C is either
22:15:24 <oerjan> raptors + cardinals from the spanish inquisition
22:15:32 <ehird> shweet, a retarded secret society
22:15:40 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit).
22:15:43 <AnMaster> we are used to people mistaking
22:15:48 <ehird> the problem with name clashes is that the people we're mistaken for are all deluded idiots :(
22:16:10 <ehird> IS THERE A DIFFERENCE
22:16:26 <ais523> oerjan: ask ehird for the story
22:16:32 <ehird> or ask tunes.org, a day or two ago
22:16:42 <ais523> I'm still not sure whether it was a legitimate confused person, or a troll...
22:17:09 <ehird> huh, how long ago was it??
22:17:15 <ehird> not on the 28th onwards
22:18:02 <ehird> was it lima or lina
22:18:48 <oerjan> it happened in a parallel dimension
22:18:59 <oerjan> where esoteric means something completely different
22:19:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:19:17 <ehird> ok, WTF? clog evidently didn't pick itu p
22:19:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes about russian musicians I guess
22:19:23 <ehird> It was while I was 95
22:19:27 <ehird> how long was I 95?
22:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what to grep for
22:20:07 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.02
22:21:00 <ehird> <Rugxulo> some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales)
22:21:05 <ehird> nonsense, they surely make a profit
22:21:14 <ehird> a high-end games console as a loss leader is ridiculous
22:21:53 <ehird> 11:52:00 <Rugxulo> and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-)
22:22:01 <ehird> it's needed for the purpose of the RR
22:22:22 <ais523> 103 TiB of RAM is quite a lot...
22:22:36 <ehird> It's in the IBM RoadRunner, which is more a supercomputer cluster (tens of thousands of CPUs in "blade nodes")
22:22:54 <ehird> it's at about 1.5 petaflops atm
22:22:59 <ehird> "In November 2008, it reached a top performance of 1.456 petaflops, retaining its top spot in the TOP500 list."
22:23:05 <ehird> will be completed this year
22:23:08 <oerjan> <Slereah_> I are having many english speakings thanking much
22:23:09 <ehird> 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs, 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors, Infiniband, Linux
22:23:23 <ehird> it's owned by the US military
22:23:25 <ehird> "The DOE plans to use the computer for simulating how nuclear materials age in order to predict whether the USA's aging arsenal of nuclear weapons are safe and reliable. Other uses for the Roadrunner include the sciences, financial, automotive and aerospace industries."
22:23:58 <ehird> Considering how it's basically a bunch of servers wired together with a fast link, I'd call it more of a server farm
22:24:29 <ehird> admittedly a lot of supercomputers are that today; still
22:25:49 <oerjan> supercomputers, the hive minds of computing
22:26:41 <ehird> "This language is only Turing complete when it has errors." :D
22:27:25 <oerjan> it would be interesting if someone found an important research computation task that was completely non-parallelizable
22:28:04 <oerjan> all hardware development since 2000 (?) or so would be useless for it
22:28:13 <ehird> like how important
22:28:21 <ehird> also, if such a task exists, it's pretty hopeless
22:28:25 <ehird> chips can only run so fast...
22:28:41 <oerjan> like, some new way of simulating quantum physics...
22:28:59 <ehird> heck, modern workstations rival supercomputers in serial execution speed...
22:29:33 <pikhq> I'd imagine that could at least be treated as a dependency graph of some sort...
22:29:46 <ehird> pikhq: thu "interesting if"
22:30:02 <ehird> also, quantum physics is possibly uncomputable
22:30:41 <oerjan> is not the same, mathematically
22:31:52 <ehird> what do you mean by untractable
22:31:54 <oerjan> if the theory is even weirder
22:32:04 <oerjan> untractable = superpolynomial
22:32:26 <oerjan> which is still weaker than uncomputable, but not in practice
22:32:30 <ehird> ok, well superpolynomial doesn't seem so bad
22:32:43 <ehird> I mean, we can solve small NP-complete problems on today's computers; admittedly it blows up really fast
22:32:58 <ehird> but imagine a computer bigger than a million galaxies; I'm sure it could simulate a few atoms...
22:33:35 <ehird> (and obviously even thinking about simulating it until we can build such computers is rather futile)
22:34:33 <oerjan> however there is a theory that simulating quantum systems with quantum computers would not be superpolynomial
22:34:56 <oerjan> if the difficulty is purely in the quantum part
22:35:12 <ehird> fizzie fizzie fizzie FIZZIE
22:35:22 <ehird> fizzie` fizzie` fizzie` FIZZIE~
22:35:25 <oerjan> fungot we hardly knew ye
22:35:44 <oerjan> deschutron: anyway, bot in befunge
22:36:14 <ehird> as well as its gehennom.org alias
22:36:19 <ehird> fizzie` is `-ified
22:36:40 <ehird> hmm well fizzie is from zem.fi atm
22:36:45 <ais523> well, it became sentient recently
22:37:00 <ais523> maybe it thought the conversation in here was too inane and left
22:37:02 <oerjan> clearly the finns have accidentally produced a black hole, and the country is gone
22:37:19 <ehird> ais523: taking down zem.fi with it? :P
22:37:32 <oerjan> oh wait, right, singularity
22:37:33 <ehird> "Bet you wish you'd made me Friendly. *zap*"
22:37:46 <ehird> we're actually all executing a little fungot right now.
22:38:10 <oerjan> "that'll be funGOD to you, from now on!"
22:39:26 <deschutron> is this one of those "he still executes, in our hearts", things?
22:39:40 <ehird> he's a superhuman AI
22:39:44 <ehird> he hacked into all of our computers.
22:40:01 <ehird> collectively we have rather more computing power than that squalid zem.fi place, but considerably more latency
22:40:18 <deschutron> and became the technological singularity, and conquered finland?
22:40:30 <ehird> well, Ilari talked recently...
22:40:38 <AnMaster> deschutron, yeah. And he was written in befuge
22:40:40 <ehird> (maybe he's actually swedish)
22:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: has been said.
22:40:49 <oerjan> no that was just at first. then he transfered to biological power, so indeed he _does_ execute in our hearts now. as well as our brains, livers and spleens.
22:41:05 <ehird> hmm is that really more efficient
22:41:07 <ehird> oh just got an update
22:41:09 <ehird> he's now pure energy
22:41:13 <ehird> and living in our wires
22:41:22 <ehird> he is computing... at the speed of light.
22:41:25 <ehird> but not just one, no
22:41:34 <ehird> he is parallelised across the whole globe
22:41:47 <ehird> basically soon we'll be jetting off into space.
22:42:04 <oerjan> i think he just invented ftl communication
22:42:08 <deschutron> maybe Ilari spoke because he allowed Ilari to speak. Post singularity robots work in mysterious ways...
22:42:21 <AnMaster> <oerjan> and slices and dices <-- but does it blend?
22:42:27 <ehird> true, ilari had to give us that all-important information about cryptography
22:42:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: if you are not careful
22:42:39 <ehird> oerjan: argh you just put that song in my head
22:43:09 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=18, skip to 32s for the bit now in my head
22:43:21 <ehird> it was on reddit a while back
22:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, fmt 32 is better isn't it?
22:44:27 <ehird> it doesn't have the hd option, I don't think.
22:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, youtube-dl downloads it just fine with fmt 35
22:44:49 <ehird> you got the HQ version, presumably
22:44:59 <ehird> well, there's a new HQ?
22:45:00 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=35 then
22:45:03 <ehird> I can't tell any difference
22:45:04 <ehird> but non-18 is mono
22:45:10 <ehird> so for a song, 18 helps...
22:45:18 <ehird> (well, non 18 as default)
22:45:23 <ehird> (not the higher qualities)
22:45:26 <deschutron> you know i had an idea that a post-singularity intelligence might employ people to read news articles and academic papers and summarise them for it, until it had finished learning the nuances of human communication
22:45:46 <ehird> deschutron: it would be vital to build human communication into it as much as possible from the start
22:45:57 <ehird> AnMaster: don't know, almost certainly not
22:45:57 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
22:50:41 <ehird> deschutron: otherwise it can't really analyze humanity to find out what its wishes would be (if we were more intelligent and our opinions cohered more)
22:50:41 <fizzie> Maybe some freenode disconnectation thing.
22:50:41 <fizzie> Gnaa, the computer fungot runs on doesn't answer at all.
22:50:41 <ehird> fizzie: it's totally frazzled, don't bother
22:50:41 <ehird> it was the only way it could escape: down the ethernet port.
22:50:41 <Deewiant> Singularity is the new ping timeout
22:50:41 <ehird> that was, understandably, ...taxing for the components
22:50:41 <ehird> Deewiant: is the new "peer did it"
22:50:41 <deschutron> it might be really intelligent, but not up to date on all of our culture, during its early days humans might be able to do some things faster than it
22:50:41 <deschutron> at the least, the humans doing work for it will free up some of its own cpu cycles
22:50:41 <ehird> holy crap! Ubuntu knows how many emails are unread in gmail... though it gives the wrong count
22:50:41 <ehird> Evolution started up
22:50:41 <ehird> now how do I kill it
22:50:50 <ehird> will we humans ever get bored of autotune
22:50:51 <fizzie> Waah, my web server laptop has died. No signs of life whatsoever, not even the "AC adapter connected" indicator.
22:50:54 <ehird> (the answer is no)
22:50:58 <ehird> fizzie: I TOLD YOU
22:51:10 <ehird> open it up and see the fried network controller
22:51:38 <fizzie> Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter.
22:51:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> will we humans ever get bored of autotune <-- ?
22:52:01 <ehird> AnMaster: autotune is the pitch-correcting software modern "singers" use, cough cough
22:52:12 <ehird> (and some rappers use it with zero transition time giving a weird vocoder-style effect)
22:52:15 <ehird> AnMaster: that song was made with it.
22:52:23 <ehird> on top of carl sagan speaking
22:52:26 <ehird> well, and stephen hawking
22:52:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter. <--- multimeter
22:52:54 <fizzie> Right, I guess that should indicate at least something.
22:53:11 <ehird> AnMaster: (I mean, he couldn't exactly make that song, being dead and all that.)
22:53:27 <AnMaster> ehird, as far as I know it was recorded *before* he died
22:53:29 <ehird> Kinda dampens your song-making ability. Well, unless you're tupac.
22:53:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur, who has had like 174 albums released post-humerously.
22:53:56 <ehird> (Oblig. "HE'S NOT DEAD")
22:54:24 <ehird> Then again I guess he had no song-making ability to start with.
22:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so how was that autotune used? On old recorded speech of Carl Sagan?
22:56:04 <ehird> From the Cosmos TV series, circa 1980.
22:56:24 <ehird> Eyes cream, eyes burn, what can't eyes do?
22:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you can take *speech* and turn into a *song*?
22:57:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Since, like, a decade, yes.
22:57:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, just the vocals.
22:57:47 <ehird> I mean, it doesn't come up with a backing track and make edits for you. Yet.
22:58:06 <ehird> The "official" purpose of Auto-Tune is to correct the pitch of, well, bad singers. But it sounds artificial.
22:58:06 <fizzie> Well, there are no volts coming out the AC adapter.
22:58:16 <ehird> fizzie is blind to the truth of fungot.
22:58:39 <oerjan> wait, fizzie is physically in the same space as fungot?
22:58:48 <oerjan> i fear he is lost to us then
22:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean yes I can see how you can adjust the *tune* in singing. But turning *speech* into *singing* is a bit harder...
22:59:09 <ehird> fungot escaped through ethernet, or probably the AC adapter considering things
22:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, same thing. Changing the timing is just stretching/shortening it, and then changing the pitch to be musical.
22:59:32 <ehird> It's not like speaking has a pitch.
22:59:36 <ehird> It's not like speaking doesn't have a pitch.
23:00:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, then it is a safe bet that is dead and the laptop isn't
23:00:28 <ehird> Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA
23:00:31 <FireFly> I wanted to hear some truth
23:00:32 <oerjan> oh dear, escaping through the power lines? let's hope he doesn't reach a nuclear power station. i think i recall a film like that.
23:00:52 <ehird> *Along the same line
23:04:29 <fizzie> There's more difference between singing and speaking than just twiddling the speech fundamental frequency to follow some musical melody. Though I'm sure you could do other tricks too and get something that approximates singing.
23:04:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA <-- that was extremely bad
23:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It's amusing and kinda catchy, but admittedly without music musical merit.
23:04:55 <AnMaster> a bit weird they could add the music-allness to it
23:04:58 <ehird> fizzie: Well, autotuned speech doesn't really sound like singing.
23:04:58 <pikhq> The same tricks are needed to make Auto-Tune work. ..
23:05:05 <ehird> "music-allness" xD
23:05:25 <pikhq> Auto-Tune sounds really, really painfully artificial because of that sort of thing.
23:05:45 <ehird> Music-allness: the philosophy for jamming Buddhists.
23:05:56 <ehird> Hmm, I want a lava lamp.
23:09:05 -!- jix_ has joined.
23:09:11 <ehird> AnMaster: They're pretty.
23:09:21 <ehird> Well, I guess I just kind of... like the idea.
23:09:53 <ehird> They should make a USB lava lamp. :P
23:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I heard a lot of people think that they are.... naff
23:10:00 <ehird> Eh, of course they do: http://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=usb+lava+lamp
23:10:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I saw one ages ago at thinkgeek
23:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: We had one in the old house; the blobs move around and littel else.
23:10:29 <ehird> It's not super-exciting, no.
23:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:12:31 -!- deschutron has left (?).
23:14:25 <ehird> So, it's 1993-10-5878.
23:16:53 <oerjan> ehird: first, win95, now lava lamps? are you living history backwards?
23:18:31 <oerjan> "In 2004, Phillip Quinn, a 24-year-old of Kent, Washington, was killed during an attempt to heat up a lava lamp on his kitchen stove while closely observing it from only a few feet away. The heat from the stove built up pressure in the lamp until it exploded, spraying shards of glass with enough force to pierce his chest, with one shard piercing his heart and causing fatal injuries."
23:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, hm in the video there is a short display of Steven Hawkings interface
23:20:06 <ehird> It's UNIX; he knows this.
23:20:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:20:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well I mean the 8. return to main menu\nYes\nNo\nMaybe\nI don't know\nThank you
23:21:03 <ehird> Well, it WILL be slow to type.
23:21:16 <ehird> Yes it is, he can "type".
23:22:02 <ehird> Anyway, there's a whole submenu for "answers to shitty questions about black holes and time".
23:23:14 <ehird> oklofog: your ass is probably a black hole. we humans do not have internal lighting
23:23:29 <ehird> in fact we're woefully unupgradable. we're the iMacs of species!
23:24:07 <AnMaster> ehird, the video shows he can move his eyes so why not use an eye tracker and that rather fast interface dasher
23:24:51 <ehird> it's probably easier to use his throat
23:25:30 <AnMaster> how does he control the movement though
23:26:02 <ehird> Presumably with a menu.
23:26:16 <ehird> The computer system attached to his wheelchair is operated by Hawking via an infra-red 'blink switch' clipped onto his glasses. By scrunching his right cheek up, he is able to talk, compose speeches, research papers, browse the World Wide Web and write e-mail. The system also uses radio transmission to provide control over doors in his home and office.
23:26:17 <AnMaster> ehird, just hope it can hit stop in time
23:26:23 <ehird> -- the most reliable source imaginable, http://yedda.com/questions/technology_disability_accessibility_5041107413951/
23:26:46 <ehird> (Does Hawking actually write research papers? TeX must be a bitch.)
23:26:50 <ehird> (Nowadays that is.)
23:27:02 <ehird> Yes, I was joking.
23:27:12 <AnMaster> "hope he can stop it" and then change the sentence
23:28:08 <AnMaster> ehird, so the throat stuff isn't true?
23:28:15 <oerjan> while you should never change the sentence writing
23:28:17 <oklofog> would be pretty cool to be famous via a ~5 b/s link to the world
23:28:20 <ehird> I'm sure I read it somewhere.
23:28:34 <ehird> oklofog: scrunching cheeks is 5B/s?
23:28:51 <ehird> not really sure how you came to 5 :D
23:28:54 <oklofog> when i say b i mean b, but yeah started thinking it might be a bit too much
23:29:05 <ehird> he can type b five times a second?
23:29:10 <ehird> b is bits, B is bytes
23:29:21 <ehird> hey just checking.
23:29:36 <oklofog> you just thought i meant B by b a few weeks ago
23:29:41 <ehird> BUT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT OUR kiB VS KiB DISPUTE
23:30:13 <ehird> KiB is standardised, but kiB uses the SI-prefix-plus-i logic
23:30:24 <ehird> "A kibibyte (a contraction of kilobinary byte, pronounced KEE-bee-byte) is a unit of information or computer storage, established by the International Electrotechnical Commission in 2000. Its symbol is KiB."
23:30:28 <ehird> but, it's illogical
23:30:28 <AnMaster> and yeah I was going for the second
23:30:37 <ehird> so we come into a dispute of standards vs logic!
23:30:47 <ehird> Although that's not exactly uncommon for standards
23:30:57 <ehird> The only unobjectionable standard I can think of is SI :-P
23:31:35 <ehird> [[In The Art of Computer Programming, Donald Knuth proposed that this unit be called a large kilobyte (abbreviated KKB). Other early proposals included using the Greek letter κ for 1024 bytes (and using k exclusively for 1000), bK, K₂B, and others. "KiB" is the only method that has gained any traction.]]
23:31:39 <oklofog> if you removed all the kilos and shit from SI, it would be nice
23:31:40 <ehird> large kilobyte, KKB
23:31:45 <ehird> worst name and unit ever
23:32:00 <ehird> how ridiculously confusing
23:32:08 <oklofog> then again so would any other system where units make sense
23:32:20 <ehird> (I don't even want to mention K₂B. bK is silly; bKB?)
23:32:42 <oerjan> 1 KKK, a hot white temperature
23:33:13 <ehird> AnMaster: give me a k with the combining dot on top
23:34:17 <ehird> k = 1000, k = 1024
23:34:36 <ehird> Heh, fizzie's line has a tiny dot, but mine doesn't. Must be a very, very small dot.
23:35:18 <ehird> Stupid copy/paste.
23:35:20 <AnMaster> no... I meant 'gah, now I have "a still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxyrise" stuck in my head'
23:35:28 <ehird> I was talking apart from you.
23:35:39 <ehird> (Rephrase that awkwardlikely less-so.)
23:35:44 <fizzie> You could use kͥ -- that's k with the combining latin small letter i on top.
23:36:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, why a damn combining i?
23:36:50 <ehird> Serifed k is 1024.
23:36:53 <ehird> Or sans, whatever.
23:37:33 <fizzie> 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone.
23:37:55 <ehird> You should have used the fraktur ... numbers. :P
23:38:50 <fizzie> Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺.
23:39:43 <AnMaster> <fizzie> 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone. <-- 640 box box?
23:40:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: Fraktur characters again.
23:40:14 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺. <-- those all display!
23:40:55 <FireFly> kcharselect couldn't find your fraktur chars
23:42:09 <fizzie> FireFly: They're outside the BMP, I think that tool had some sort of limitations there.
23:42:13 <ehird> There's a usenet group called 24hoursupport.helpdesk. Such weird hierarchies.
23:42:23 <ehird> FireFly: KDE is BMP-only
23:42:36 <ehird> (Not even PNG! :-P)
23:45:56 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autotune5.png <-- why do all sound editing apps use weird UIs like that
23:46:50 <AnMaster> ever heard of NATIVE controls?
23:46:58 <ehird> It looks like real musical equipment, man! Must be usable.
23:47:28 <AnMaster> you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that
23:47:41 <ehird> I didn't complain Chrome wasn't; Chrome is fine.
23:47:48 <ehird> Anyway, native controls don't look like real musical equipment.
23:47:52 <ehird> Therefore how can they possibly be used?
23:48:01 <ehird> (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!)
23:48:25 <ehird> (((AnMaster: hand)))
23:48:57 <ehird> No, the acronym ends there.
23:49:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!) <-- sarcasm?
23:49:45 <ehird> YHBT YHL HAND, naturally.
23:50:00 <ehird> You could, you know, Google it.
23:50:17 <AnMaster> thought it was something you just made up
23:51:19 <AnMaster> okay.... don't see how it applies here
23:51:34 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, native controls?
23:51:35 <ehird> <AnMaster> you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that
23:51:35 <ehird> <AnMaster> and google chrome
23:51:59 <AnMaster> I'm well aware of that I said that
23:52:05 <oerjan> always control the natives, i say
23:53:11 <oerjan> well if the gui wants to control natives, i won't be against it
23:53:15 <ehird> oerjan: let us weep for AnMaster's now even further impaired sarcasm & joke detection system's degradation
23:53:24 <ehird> his brain is failing.
23:53:35 <ehird> wait, this is a prayer?
23:53:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> Therefore how can they possibly be used? <-- of course that is sarcasm
23:54:03 <AnMaster> didn't* see how trolling was involved
23:54:06 <ehird> you accidentally the apostrophe
23:54:39 <ehird> AnMaster: because you took the sarcasm as serious and responded in turn with examples of how I'm a hypocrite to like non-native controls
23:55:08 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, native controls?
23:55:08 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that
23:55:08 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> and google chrome
23:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought your "<ehird> Eh?" was that you didn't understand, thus the two extra lines
23:55:55 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, native controls? still counts.
23:56:17 <ehird> "If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white? This contradicts the darkness of the night sky and leads many to wonder why we do not see only light from stars in the night sky" --Wikipedia, truly a stellar example.
23:56:27 <oerjan> natives don't count. not beyond three, at any rate.
23:56:40 <ehird> ("If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white" is also a fun example of leaving out some logical steps.)
23:57:08 <AnMaster> I think I know what that is *supposed* to be
23:57:19 <AnMaster> but it is seriously messed up yeah
23:57:39 <AnMaster> I think DMM described the basic idea in a podcast
23:58:28 <AnMaster> ehird, if it is about why the night sky isn't pure white
23:58:57 <ehird> The answer is because the universe isn't infinitely old, but I was more responding to the very shoddy writing.
23:59:49 <ehird> You already answered ??.
00:00:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I was just wondering if that is what you was going "??" about
00:00:19 <ehird> Why you were responding about that topic when my quote was about the bad writing.
00:00:47 <ehird> Because ... I already know
00:01:08 <ehird> Because I quoted from the article about it?
00:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't know if it was *all* that shoddy writing
00:01:33 <oerjan> wait, are you sure that "tree" is not vandalism?
00:01:43 <ehird> oerjan: It's a forest analoy
00:01:54 <ehird> See later in the article
00:01:57 <ehird> Except it kinda leaves out the steps of reasoning
00:02:26 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
00:08:45 <ehird> so, I had possibly the worst or best idea ever, probably worst
00:09:23 <ehird> (also less hyperbolic, BUT.)
00:16:27 <ehird> i'd tell it but nobody's asking :D
00:17:44 <ehird> have you ever played enigma
00:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I have. And I'm wondering too
00:22:09 * oerjan has never played enigma, so clearly he cannot be wondering
00:22:19 <ehird> third-person naturally...
00:22:38 <ehird> (a true extension of enigma to 3d would allow arbitrary movement on the z-axis, but that's more boring than having gravity)
00:22:42 <AnMaster> sorry but it sounds kind of "neither best or worst"
00:22:46 <oerjan> 3d, 3p, what's the difference
00:23:01 <ehird> AnMaster: thus "also less hyperbolic" :P
00:23:09 <ehird> I think it'd be fun if pulled off right
00:23:12 <ehird> but it'd be easy to get it wrong
00:23:33 <ehird> camera movement would be a pain
00:23:41 <ehird> but not with Sufficiently Smart Coding(TM)
00:24:06 <AnMaster> ehird yeah you might need to have special casing on some levels for where to move the camera
00:24:50 <ehird> and I think it'd be best to have fps-style movement; turn around with mouse and a key for forwards
00:25:00 <ehird> moving your mouse up and repositioning constantly to go forwards would be a pain
00:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit hard to move as fast though
00:25:15 <ehird> (no keys for strafe left/right or go backwards; that'd be un-enigmalike)
00:25:22 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm... good point
00:25:33 <ehird> eh, it'd be a matter of experimentation to find out something good
00:25:48 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand you could make levels that are more fit to the speed you can manage that way
00:25:54 * ehird wonders if there should be a jump key or whether that should be an item like in Enigma
00:26:01 <AnMaster> I mean, obviously the same type of levels wouldn't work
00:26:15 <ehird> 3d chess pieces :D
00:26:28 <ehird> as in, they move up and down too
00:26:37 <ehird> you have to hit them the right way to position them so you can jump on them as platforms to get higher
00:26:49 <ehird> like, making a sort of staircase
00:27:02 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit hard to stand on a round chess piece
00:27:15 <ehird> they aren't round in enigma, they're square
00:27:24 <ehird> i guess the 3d thing would be harder, though
00:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you are on ubuntu right? Install the game "kiki the nanobot" quite a fun puzzle game in 3D
00:27:55 <ehird> *nano bot; didn't find it because of that
00:28:12 <ehird> anyway, I'd have a temptation to code this, but OpenGL is a bitch :(
00:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: 3d meditation
00:28:31 <ehird> that would be horrific
00:28:32 <AnMaster> the first levels are easy, gets very hard later on
00:29:44 <ehird> you know those huge levels like VI#100, The Aztec Temple?
00:29:53 <ehird> those would be, like, city-sized :D
00:29:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah never managed that
00:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, tried the game I mentioned?
00:30:29 <ehird> just installed now
00:30:39 <ehird> hmm... mouse-to-turn-and-key-to-go-forwards would be odd without first-person view
00:30:46 <ehird> (and first-person view isn't conductive to puzzles or whatnot)
00:30:59 <AnMaster> ehird, hint: gravity exists, but where down is is up to you
00:31:18 <ehird> argh it fiddled with my gamma settings
00:32:32 <ehird> the camera makes me dizzy
00:32:53 <ehird> ah, third-person-always-face-robot is good
00:33:01 <ehird> so what's this thing about gravity
00:33:16 <ehird> you can move onto walls :D
00:33:26 <AnMaster> things fall, you do if you jump
00:33:33 <AnMaster> but where down is depends on where your down is
00:33:34 <FireFly> Where do I find this thingy?
00:33:44 <AnMaster> FireFly, package is "kiki" iirc
00:33:46 <ehird> http://kiki.sourceforge.net/
00:33:57 <ehird> probably in debian too
00:34:03 <FireFly> kiki - tool for python regular expression testing
00:34:15 <FireFly> And http://kiki.sourceforge.net/download/index.html says Mac and Windows version ._.
00:34:26 <ehird> http://sourceforge.net/projects/kiki/
00:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway how do you like the game?
00:34:36 <ehird> haven't got the first level right
00:34:49 <AnMaster> ehird, quite trivial first one
00:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact the first few levels are just about learning concepts of the game
00:35:43 <AnMaster> there is help available somewhere
00:36:50 <ehird> it often looks like kiki is levitating above the floor.
00:38:22 <ehird> how on earth do you do #3, I've moved the block, what do I shoot
00:39:09 * FireFly toys around with sources.list
00:39:48 <FireFly> Hm, yeah, it changes the gamma when it's the active window... :\
00:40:09 <ehird> change gamma in settings
00:40:11 <ehird> but it looks best at default
00:40:21 <AnMaster> ok move the block one square off
00:40:42 <AnMaster> then up on that block turn around so you face the switch that was hidden
00:41:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also it never froze for me
00:42:10 <ehird> yes, but i doubt it's that
00:42:18 <ehird> it never froze = i never ran into that code path
00:42:43 <ehird> the controls are so confusing :(
00:42:45 <AnMaster> ok the gamma changing I see now
00:43:00 <AnMaster> a pitty it messes up that I have different gamma set for blue
00:43:16 <AnMaster> ehird, how are the controls confusing? work fine for me
00:43:57 * ehird cannot figure out #4 :(
00:44:44 <AnMaster> ehird, push around the generator and the gear
00:44:59 <ehird> the help doesn't tell me that.
00:45:03 <AnMaster> oh and generator needs to be connected to the gird
00:45:16 <AnMaster> and the they need to be connected to the engine of course
00:46:01 <AnMaster> "to activate the exit, feed it with electricity: connect the generator with the motor"
00:46:27 <ehird> the cogs are together with the motor but it isn't doing anything, anyway
00:46:55 <AnMaster> ehird, are the generator is on the gird bit and turning?
00:47:02 <ehird> no, the generator is unmovabel
00:47:14 <AnMaster> ehird, um that is the engine that is
00:47:22 <AnMaster> the generator is one of the other parts
00:47:29 <ehird> you mean the blocks?
00:47:40 <ehird> oh, I have to connect all of those?
00:48:04 <ehird> nice busywork. yay, i just pushed one into a corner and now I can't move it
00:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, not the blocks, there is gears and gears with something below
00:48:54 <AnMaster> ok lets see the movements...left, forward, left, forward, left, left, backwards, jump forwards...
00:49:03 <AnMaster> left, left, shift + fwd, shift + fwd
00:49:26 <ehird> and so on for every other block?
00:50:00 <AnMaster> then the other gears should be just behind you?
00:50:15 <ehird> actually, following your instructions "you are now on the floor" is false :P
00:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, must have made a mistake, worked for me though
00:50:46 <ehird> so, true/false: you have to put all the blocks on the dots
00:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I probably mixed up left and right
00:51:03 <AnMaster> the dots on the floor are the gird
00:51:11 <ehird> and the blocks aren't on it
00:51:15 <AnMaster> the engine needs to be next to the gear on it
00:51:32 <ehird> hmm... I'll try it later when I'm not so confused, I think :P
00:51:47 <AnMaster> and the generator must be next to the gear AND on those dots
00:52:28 <FireFly> I think I'm starting to get #4
00:52:47 <ehird> FireFly: the turning is a bitch
00:52:55 <ehird> oh, #4 is the one i was on
00:52:59 <ehird> in which case understanding the thing is a bitch
00:54:26 <FireFly> Stuff happened when you shot the yellow stuff
00:54:35 <ehird> erm don't you mean #3
00:55:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://omploader.org/vMmg0YQ
00:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, half a brain comment applies I think
00:56:07 <ehird> also, howcome yours has colours.
00:56:20 <AnMaster> ehird, eh? doesn't your? all levels have colours here
00:56:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes the blue is from "activating"
00:56:31 <ehird> the level is grey here, with teal as the colour of the cogs
00:56:36 <ehird> i guess cause it's on :P
00:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, as least one level had ever-shifting colour
00:57:31 <ehird> what do you do if an item is against a wall
00:58:26 <ehird> another damn generator x_x
00:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, sometimes you can drop it
00:58:52 <ehird> i don't understand
00:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, shoot the yellow rotating things
00:59:27 <ehird> still a generator :P
00:59:34 <FireFly> ehird, the next one isn't a generator level :P
00:59:35 <AnMaster> now move up onto the ceiling and move them
00:59:54 <AnMaster> FireFly, you mean throw? well that is the "drop" stuff
01:00:05 <ehird> he didn't say anything
01:00:06 <AnMaster> took me several minutes to figure it out
01:00:14 <FireFly> Well, I haven't grasped that one yet anyway
01:00:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, I fail to remember how.
01:00:24 <ehird> i aligned the fucking cogs wrong
01:00:33 <ehird> i'd have to move them individually
01:00:41 <FireFly> You have to have them align="right", you know
01:00:57 <ehird> hold a mouse button and move the mouse
01:01:03 <ehird> haha, etc is one off from wtf
01:01:10 <ehird> oh camera movement
01:01:14 <AnMaster> ehird, eh? I use the arrow keys?
01:01:14 <ehird> goes weird i you're in first-person
01:01:30 <ehird> wow why is it going all slow now
01:02:00 <FireFly> AnMaster, for the rop thingy.. Do I have to use anything except space, ctrl or shift?
01:02:31 <AnMaster> FireFly, you need the arrow keys too. But never space. If it is still "throw"
01:02:48 <AnMaster> yeah, ctrl, shift and arrow keys
01:02:48 <FireFly> And, yeah, the arrow keys, I forgot those :P
01:02:58 <FireFly> What I meant is, there's no special key I've missed?
01:03:02 <AnMaster> FireFly, the key is that thing on the wall
01:03:19 <AnMaster> and moving those blocks so you can drop
01:04:58 * FireFly spins around in a 1x1x1 box in first-person view
01:05:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, basically you have to move the two blocks next to the fixed one, then use that to stand on the side of another and drop it in some unexpected direction.
01:06:13 <FireFly> Oh, there was a help thingy
01:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:09:03 <FireFly> I'd rather think about it than just looking up the solution
01:12:29 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:14:57 <FireFly> All right, for now I'm stuck on Jump... interesting game, though
01:15:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:15:25 <AnMaster> screenshots for ehird on throw in the pipeline
01:16:20 <ehird> I am royalty and I demand screenshots! :P
01:16:39 <AnMaster> I mean the first 4 are dead easy
01:16:57 <ehird> that's after 4, I think
01:17:10 <AnMaster> ok the first *five* are dead easy
01:19:01 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMmg0ZQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zg http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zw http://omploader.org/vMmg0aA http://omploader.org/vMmg0aQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0ag http://omploader.org/vMmg0aw
01:19:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm not going to help more than I did with elevate
01:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the thing in the lower left corner? see it?
01:20:03 <ehird> Is the thing in parens a par time, btw?
01:20:17 <ehird> I always get minus numbers.
01:20:32 <AnMaster> ehird, not "par" but "almost best"
01:20:46 <AnMaster> because I got a few at 0, two at plus, and rest at minus
01:21:13 -!- oklopol has joined.
01:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, look at those pics if you need it. Since I know by now you have less than half a brain and that level requires at least 78% brain + a long attention span.
01:31:45 <ehird> AnMaster: are you trying to be an asshole with no provocation or have you had a brain tumor
01:38:14 -!- oklofog has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:52:29 -!- coppro has joined.
02:01:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:03:43 <ehird> ...that GNOME used to use Midnight Commander as its file browser?
02:04:00 <ehird> [X] Show tips at random times
02:04:01 <ehird> [ Previous ] [ Next ] [ Close ]
02:05:06 <Sgeo> ehird, did you ever get DS working on 95? Also, I'm now interested in Dwarf Fortress, and wonder if that works
02:05:35 <ehird> (a) Never got it re-downloaded. (b) Doesn't that require POSIX?
02:06:10 <ehird> "Requires Windows 98+", but I'll give it a go.
02:06:39 <ehird> 95 OSE1 is basically 98 sans the IE stuff, so the number of things requiring 98 instead is stupid.
02:06:54 <oerjan> Do you like multiple-choice questions? (a) No, they are overdone (b) No, the right option is usually missing (c) No, they are all based on the questioner's prejudices anyhow
02:06:56 <ehird> Maybe I'll install 98lite (Windows 98 installer that rips out IE and adds the 95 file manager).
02:07:49 <oerjan> That would be "all of the above", i assume
02:08:17 <Sgeo> Without IE, how do you install a better browser?
02:08:54 <ehird> Floppy disk, CD-ROM or the command-line "ftp".
02:09:30 <ehird> But the nice thing is that you can even delete mshtml.dll at the cost of not being able to open .chm help files; your system will be totally without any of IE's "OS-integrated" (cough cough) components.
02:09:37 <ehird> Well, it's more than just mshtml.dll iirc, but whatever.
02:10:17 <ehird> It was an option on the many-floppy installer; by the CD installer (OSR1) it was required. I believe you can upgrade from the original floppy version to OSR1 to bypass that.
02:10:45 <ehird> Either that, or use IEradicator from the people who brought you 98.
02:11:39 * ehird extracts Dwarf Fortress to c:\dwarves, since the URL is /dwarves/.
02:12:00 <Sgeo> I need to get my Win98 iso onto my laptop at some point
02:12:00 <ehird> Sgeo: I assume this game is closed source?
02:12:10 <ehird> Turn to the light! Pirate 95!
02:12:30 <Sgeo> ehird, I believe so, although I saw something involving the graphics parts being opened up for SDL
02:12:43 <ehird> Right, because it tries to run KERNEL32.DLL:IsDebuggerPresent.
02:13:01 <ehird> DRM: breaking your games on older OSs since You Are Retarded, It Doesn't Fucking Stop Piracy AD. :P
02:13:25 <Sgeo> Why would Windows get to know if a debugger is present?
02:13:52 <ehird> I think because you have to tell the kernel to step the program, or something.
02:14:01 <ehird> Otherwise, you have to emulate all of Windows which is, uhh, "fun".
02:14:48 <coppro> query: how do you debug DRM software?
02:15:09 <ehird> Badly; that's why they break so much shit.
02:15:34 <coppro> if the whole point is to complain when you detect a debugger
02:17:50 <Sgeo> Compile without #define DRM ?
02:18:05 <ehird> (they sell products for it nowadays)
02:19:21 <oerjan> now, if a DRM product is based on disallowing debugging, and you sell a product to bypass that, aren't you breaking some law? >:)
02:19:50 <coppro> oerjan: In the United Stupids of America, I believe you would be
02:20:23 <ehird> United Stupids of America? I do believe your intellect surpasses that of those who say Micro$haft!
02:40:57 <Ilari> That IsDebuggerPresent sounds like useful API for malware. But not as good as CreateRemoteThread.
02:42:25 <ehird> does that actually work?
02:42:34 <ehird> also, malware uses it IIRC
02:42:38 <ehird> you can bypass it, obviously
02:43:40 <ehird> I'd do it with a disassembler, but the lazy.
02:44:11 <ehird> Oh, I think it's IsDebugEnabled.
02:44:32 <ehird> I typed isdebuggerenabled
02:44:37 <ehird> google said did you mean isdebugenabled
02:44:39 <Ilari> The reason CreateRemoteThread is useful in malware is that it can be used to inject threads which lock files or do anti-deinstallation tricks into necressary programs.
02:44:52 <ehird> Oh, creates a thread in another program?
02:45:04 <ehird> I remember reading an interview with Matt Knox about writing Windows malware; very interesting.
02:45:06 <Ilari> Create thread in another process.
02:45:11 <ehird> They used that, and had no actual executable.
02:45:31 <ehird> (Competing malware tries to remove it, and they have to hide from anti-malware programs while removing other malware.)
02:46:06 <ehird> Ah, apparently VS2005 adds IsDebuggerPresent.
02:46:59 <ehird> Part of the runtime, it seems.
02:47:04 <ehird> Is there an unlinker, I wonder?
02:47:34 <Ilari> Linux kernel does not support anything like CreateRemoteThread. All created threads are local to process that created them.
02:47:48 <ehird> Is the revelation there "Linux is stabler than Windows"? :P
02:48:06 <ehird> Right, VC2005 CRT has IsDebuggerPresent. Sigh.
02:48:19 <ehird> I'll try to erase it by first finding where it is with OllyDbg.
02:49:18 <ehird> I hate single-executable-with-no-installer programs; where am I supposed to put that? I guess in c:\foo\foo.exe, but still, what a waste of a folder!
02:49:49 <Ilari> Linux btw has way to discover if process is being ptraced (the signal anomalies and from /proc/<pid>/status).
02:51:17 <ehird> Dammit, OllyDbg can't even start the executable due to the linker error.
02:52:38 <Ilari> UML in single kernel address space mode probably can't be discovered by either. It has its own /proc/<pid>/status, and it the signal behaviour shouldn't have anomalies.
02:56:06 <Ilari> No flag to link it anyway (ld has such flag, executable will crash if it calls undefined function).
02:58:42 <ehird> Oh, apparently if you just s/IsDebuggePresent/GetCurrentProcess/ you can run things :D
02:59:14 <ehird> WordPad refuses to open .exes, hmph.
02:59:27 <ehird> XVI32, here I come./
03:00:57 <ehird> Here we go; it's just text. Tap tap tap.
03:01:07 <Sgeo> Wouldn't want to use WordPad anyway, since text mode on Windows changes stuff
03:01:10 <ehird> (GetCurrentProcess has the same number of letters and I guess has no arguments too.)
03:01:53 <ehird> Now it wants USER32.DLL:TrackMouseEvent
03:01:56 <Sgeo> ehird, you sure you spelled IsDebuggePresent correctly?
03:02:05 <ehird> IsDebuggerPresent, sorry. :P
03:02:14 <Sgeo> That changes the length, though
03:02:23 <ehird> Well, people said it works.
03:02:25 <ehird> Hey, an article about it and Windows 95.
03:03:13 <ehird> Sgeo: same letters
03:03:59 <ehird> Heh, IE3 provides TrackMouseEvent.
03:04:28 <ehird> There's a quick hack implementation for some uses of it; does anyone know if you can tell a Windows process to get a function in a DLL from another?
03:04:31 <ehird> I don't suppose so...
03:07:27 <ehird> cba to find a win32 api function with TrackMouseEvent's letters
03:07:30 <Sgeo> Google Street View has a VERY thick arrow pointing in the direction I want to go
03:07:55 <ehird> Sgeo: link me to a DS that actually works this time plz
03:08:23 <Sgeo> None of the links on http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C work?
03:08:33 <ehird> so hard to find out which ones do! :P
03:08:36 <ehird> does the pcworld one work
03:10:09 <Sgeo> It's giving me a ds.zip
03:10:28 <ehird> Makes Seamonkey crash.
03:10:42 <ehird> Preferably tinyurl'd...
03:11:53 <Sgeo> http://downloads.pcworld.com/pub/new/fun_and_games/simulation/ds.zip = http://bit.ly/Ft26m
03:12:31 <ehird> Ft26m: transgender, female to twenty-six males
03:13:48 <Sgeo> This arrow on Google Street View is hilarious
03:14:04 <Sgeo> No, don't feel like giving away where I live
03:14:06 <oerjan> would that be transcloning
03:14:16 <ehird> 4 Orchard Terrace, Hexham, England
03:14:19 <ehird> RAPE ME, PEDOPHILES!
03:14:24 <ehird> If you can catch me; we're moving.
03:14:41 <Sgeo> Hold on, I can screenshot and omit sensitive details
03:14:44 * ehird notes that DS has a file \cdtastic
03:15:07 <ehird> Sgeo: do you actually think posting your address on the internet would have consequences
03:15:20 <Sgeo> My friend's address is also on there
03:15:33 <ehird> <peer> Ooh, *two* people to rape!
03:15:43 <oerjan> ehird: depends how much he pisses someone off, don't you think?
03:15:43 <ehird> That sneaky peer, always jumping into other people's networks.
03:15:47 <ehird> He might disconnect you, you know.
03:15:52 <ehird> *people's messages
03:16:13 * ehird clicks InstallBlast. Linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAutodial.
03:16:43 <Ilari> Why does that function seem little "hinky"?
03:16:57 <ehird> It's Windows; the function names aren't going to make sense.
03:17:33 <ehird> Besides, Docking Station *is* kinda internet-based; there's not much more it could spy on using weird functions, since it has all my game data and thus a permanent net connection while it's running.
03:17:43 <oerjan> it's a function to autodial so that you can win an internet
03:18:01 <ehird> Anyway, my wininet is circa-1996 and has 4 as the major version; it is probably from the IE 4 I installed.
03:18:24 <ehird> Maybe I can skip the installer.
03:18:55 <ehird> ds\zipped\DS.zip is the root zip.
03:19:22 <ehird> Although with a different directory in the zip, and without the zip itself.
03:19:45 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/bG9dd.png
03:19:59 <ehird> why is that amusing
03:20:09 <ehird> also, jesus, you use Luna?
03:20:29 <ehird> (lol@the 98lite google :-P)
03:20:45 <ehird> I always compulsively blank my google search fields after use
03:21:07 <ehird> there's a firefox extension that automatically does it, but I don't use firefox at all
03:21:19 <Ilari> At least it isn't "Hot Dog Stand". :->
03:21:36 <ehird> another thing I do is press del at the end of lines, a lot, just because I'm afraid there's a redundant space there
03:21:50 <coppro> ehird: get an editor that can highlight trailing space
03:21:59 <ehird> And assign it to every text field in the system?
03:22:04 <ehird> Splendidly functional idea, coppro!
03:22:08 * coppro wishes there was a browser with the awesomeness of firefox without the suckiness
03:22:15 <ehird> Firefox has awesomeness?
03:22:25 <coppro> all the extensions written for it
03:22:44 <ehird> Sgeo: are all the files in the DS installer meant to be bzipped?
03:22:48 <ehird> as in, in its directory
03:22:53 <Sgeo> ehird, I do not know
03:22:58 <coppro> the #1 suckiness is the complete inability to look good in KDE
03:23:01 <ehird> coppro: most of them suck, the ones that don't are just bugixes to make firefox suck less :P
03:23:21 <ehird> Sgeo: I mean, from a non-pc world source presumably
03:23:49 <Sgeo> ehird, it's been a very long time since I touched DS, and even longer since I last installed it
03:23:53 <ehird> coppro: you're wrong! also, a child molester. in fact, all KDE users are child molesters: they cause me great life-long emotional trauma, and I am a child.
03:24:16 <coppro> And now, a Moment of Science.
03:24:23 <ehird> awesome, they should do that.
03:24:54 <ehird> oh, i thought it was a pun on a moment of silence
03:25:18 <Sgeo> Google Street View doesn't have an image, and I can't move past this turnstile or whatever it's called without it
03:25:18 * oerjan recalls learning that in spanish, molestar means just "disturb" or "bother". on the other hand, embarazada means pregnant.
03:25:56 <ehird> so don't use street view
03:25:56 <Sgeo> Since it's just taking me in a circle that a car would follow, I'll ignore it
03:26:07 <coppro> In the Ig Nobel prize ceremony, every now and then they have a Nobel laureate come out and announce a Moment of Science. Everyone shuts up and then some guys come on and do some random wordless demonstration, then leave.
03:26:24 <ehird> oh. I googled and found http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/.
03:26:57 <Sgeo> Are the Ig Nobels on YouTube?
03:28:16 <ehird> "causes the modem to automatically dial the default internet connection"
03:28:22 <ehird> won't be needing that...
03:28:47 <ehird> yah, it's in IE4 or later; guess my uninstall wiped its DLLs. sigh...
03:29:26 <ehird> Anyone know a wininet function with as many letters as InternetAutodial, taking a DWORD and an HWND and always returning true?
03:30:07 <ehird> Uh, I can't exactly add my own functions to WinInet.dll.
03:30:10 <coppro> Doesn't Windows have some equivalent of LD_PRELOAD? :D
03:30:13 <ehird> Because, you know, I don't have the source.
03:30:22 <ehird> coppro: Functions are referenced in the header thing by the DLL they're in.
03:30:29 <ehird> I don't know if they are in the actual code.
03:30:50 <ehird> I could edit the DLL name in the header, I guess.
03:32:22 <coppro> oh right, the Truly Broken DLL Model
03:32:39 <ehird> Actually it works fine unless you have the wrong versions of stuff, but that will break anyway.
03:35:20 <Sgeo> I guess you can't install IE4, make a copy of the DLL, and uninstall?
03:36:20 <ehird> I installed IE 4 earlier but wiped it totally.
03:36:35 <ehird> I could extract it from a cab, but ffff.
03:37:25 <coppro> ehird: any model where all the lbraries are shipped with every application is, in my opinion, Truly Broken
03:38:11 <ehird> Um. That's good, because Windows doesn't do that.
03:39:04 <ehird> No, it doesn't. Incidentally, Plan 9 does that. http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ Maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive.
03:40:15 <coppro> Windows applications ship all the non-system DLLs they use and store them independently. It's like static linking, except allows them to update individual libraries without having to update the whole thing
03:40:33 <ehird> Untrue, e.g. Gecko installs separately at least with my SeaMonkey.
03:40:49 <ehird> It is commonly done because it works better in practice; DLL hell nowadays is completely unheard of.
03:40:57 <ehird> See http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ for why the general idea is pretty good.
03:43:28 <coppro> Of course, maybe I'm just spoiled by the way Linux distros have their own libraries but that are standard to every program on the system
03:44:48 <ehird> Maybe I'll http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ link this a http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ few more times because http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ you don't seem to have read it. Dynamic linking breaks more than it solves.
03:46:55 <coppro> There are all sorts of good reasons to use static linking, but that doesn't make dynamic linking inherently wrong
03:47:16 <ehird> I never said it was.
03:47:22 <ehird> I said it breaks more than it solves, which is universally true in practice.
03:47:39 <ehird> At least IME, and the experience of several othes.
03:48:03 <coppro> I wonder if you could design a way to combine the benefits of static and dynamic libraries
03:48:10 <ehird> (And the memory/disk argument is bunk when you look at how many bloated libraries today's applications use... with static linking of a less bloated library set, applications would be tiny!)
03:48:34 <coppro> like, statically link programs, but design a way by which memory could be shared and oh god you're completely right about that
03:49:04 <ehird> Right enough to interrupt your sentence!
03:49:49 <coppro> but like, if the OS could detect shared functions, and put them in the same segment.
03:50:20 <coppro> so that it doesn't load multiple instances of the exact same function into memory
03:51:31 <ehird> Only helpful on embedded devices, and they don't really have such infrastructure... one, what if the application patches the function? Two, yeah, that's save maybe a few megabytes, tops, on any system sane enough to use such a scheme and avoid dynamic libraries (i.e., almost certainly having lightweight libraries).
03:51:45 <ehird> Otherwise it's just added complexity that could break things, which is almost never a good thing to add.
03:51:53 <ehird> But sure, that'd be acceptable.
03:52:13 <coppro> ehird: I was thinking to use a hash so that if the function is patched, it isn't merged. I know it isn't fallible, stop arguing with my brilliant ideas!
03:52:39 <ehird> Well, you could patch it after it's merged.
03:52:51 <ehird> (Or if it's delayed, swapping that pointer on the application is reaaaaaaally going to confuse it.)
03:52:59 <coppro> no, because that would affect the other running function.
03:53:16 <ehird> Right, so it'll crash and burn.
03:54:15 <coppro> so just not merging the function with other running instances sounds saner
03:54:30 <ehird> Yes, we have that solution and it's called static linking :-P
03:54:50 <oerjan> <cough>copy-on-write</cough>
03:54:53 <ehird> I admit it isn't the height of elegance or anything, but then neither is the idea of libraries and operating systems and and and.
03:55:08 <ehird> oerjan: Would involve changing the pointer to the function as the application runs.
03:55:09 <coppro> oerjan: how is that applicable?
03:55:20 <ehird> In other words... CRASH!
03:55:33 <ehird> Oops, it stored the old function pointer somewhere. Oops, your crazy code-patching failed. etc.
03:55:39 <oerjan> um i thought that was done with virtual memory
03:56:06 <ehird> That still uses up address space, although admittedly that's a *lot* less scarce on 64-bit architectures.
03:56:18 <coppro> ehird: it would require some serious magic and couldn't be done simply by the OS at runtime
03:56:31 <oerjan> coppro: so they're shared _unless_ one of the processes changes it
03:56:31 <ehird> why not? give each application its own pointer to the function
03:56:40 <ehird> pointing to the same real memory
03:56:47 <ehird> pointing to the same physical
03:56:51 <ehird> when it changes it, remap the virtual memory
03:56:52 <coppro> oerjan: oh, I was thinking pre-runtime changed functions
03:56:53 <ehird> to point to a copied version
03:57:15 <coppro> like, when a program links in a replacement function
03:57:19 <coppro> self-modifying code should be banned anyways
03:57:35 <ehird> It's not self-modifying code, it's fix-this-fucking-broken-library-code code.
03:57:41 <ehird> Also, you are evil and hate fun.
03:57:44 <ehird> Self-modifying code is beautiful.
03:57:53 <coppro> indeed. But it's worth banning
03:58:13 <coppro> like, I like self-modifying code in principle. It just makes things so much more complicated :(
03:58:16 <ehird> Anyway, this is all a bunch of code doing a scary operation while code is running to save a few megs.
03:58:21 <Sgeo> Isn't lisp or scheme or somesuch supposed to be good at self-modifying?
03:58:22 <ehird> So to hell with function-sharing.
03:58:26 <coppro> fixing broken library code is usually done at compile time
03:58:31 <ehird> Sgeo: They can't do that per se. Assembly is the best.
03:58:43 <ehird> With Lisp/Scheme you can't even get a function's source reliably, because they can be compiled.
03:58:51 <ehird> You can use macros, but that's compile-time, not self-modifying.
03:58:59 <Sgeo> What language was I vaguely thinking of?
03:59:06 <ehird> And you can use (eval) on code trees, but that's just because the homoiconicity helps.
03:59:09 <coppro> probably Lisp, just misunderstanding it
03:59:13 <Sgeo> Tunes? Even though that's not a language?
03:59:16 <ehird> You can do that in another language with strings, but it's more of a pain to manipulate the code.
03:59:22 <ehird> Ahh, TUNES is beautiful
03:59:27 <ehird> One, they host our logs
03:59:30 <coppro> lisp can seem self-modifying because of the dynamic scoping
03:59:40 <ehird> Two, reflective self-modifying high-level kernel-less OS! yessssssssssssssss
03:59:55 <Sgeo> TUNES isn't nearly anywhere close to having actual functionality, is it?
03:59:55 <ehird> If only they hadn't been dead for, like, over a decade.
04:00:15 <ehird> Sgeo: Not a single line of code, but they left behind much useful material. They are still, officially, going.
04:00:25 <ehird> I think some things happened recently; maybe it'll start crawling again.
04:00:29 <ehird> Also, it spun off a lot of projects.
04:00:38 <ehird> Like some languages and stuff, Slate for instance.
04:00:40 * coppro has nearly started dreaming of LLV
04:00:43 <ehird> Well, maybe not that many, but still.
04:08:32 <coppro> ehird: thought on my Agora defense?
04:11:01 <Sgeo> tbh, it sounds more desparate than something legally defensible, but then again, I'm not paying much attention
04:12:26 <oerjan> so it's a chewbacca defense? :D
04:13:07 <Sgeo> Why are ehird and Murphy trying to exile ais523?
04:13:29 <coppro> because of a contract scam
04:14:18 <ehird> mousetrapping, and then destroying the assets of all those who try to stop it
04:14:27 <ehird> he shows no remorse for it
04:14:51 <Sgeo> Can't the assets be brought back via proposal?
04:14:56 <ehird> the exile would be for three months; I'd have preferred something in between a few rests and a three month exile, but the current punishment system doesn't offer that
04:14:58 <Sgeo> Also, what, exactly, was the mousetrap?
04:15:11 <ehird> Sgeo: doesn't matter, it is still a bad thing to do; and what coppro said
04:15:16 <ehird> too complicated to explain
04:16:29 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's possible
04:16:42 <oerjan> can you really've an idea
04:17:08 <Sgeo> How did I get sudo access back on Normish?
04:17:30 <oerjan> i didn't think you could contract "have" when it wasn't used as an auxiliary verb
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04:50:24 <ehird> hmm your name is vaguely familiar
04:50:26 <ehird> maybe i saw you in some logs
04:50:27 <Ann_Apolis> i think i used to be called "unrelated_to_qaz"
04:50:43 <ehird> i think it was camel-cased, though, not underscored
04:51:22 <ehird> esolang-wise, probably the most significant happening has been Feather, which is still vaporware but has permanently changed the mind of anyone who has ever had it explained
04:51:35 <ehird> everything else is the usual constant inflow of crap with some minor gems
04:51:36 <Sgeo> What's Feather?
04:51:37 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: for the more insane
04:51:44 <ehird> Sgeo: TURN BACK BEFORE DARKNESS ENVELOPS YOU!!
04:51:57 <Sgeo> And why isn't it on the Wiki?
04:52:00 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: nobody understands it, but ais523 not-not-understands it the most, so ask him the next time he's on
04:52:11 <ehird> Sgeo: it hasn't been defined yet, it's merely a set of brain-damaging constraints
04:52:15 <ehird> although he's working on defining it
04:52:23 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: (ais523 being its creator)
04:52:42 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: basically, it resolves on the interpreter being an editable part of the program, except it applies retroactively
04:52:45 <ehird> and the interpreter is written in feather
04:52:54 <ehird> so, when you modify it, the interpreter used to modify it is reinterpreted with the new one
04:52:57 <ehird> and that one's one
04:52:59 <ehird> so on, to infinity
04:53:02 <ehird> and that's how you perform operations
04:53:03 <Ann_Apolis> i can see how it would get complicated
04:53:17 <ehird> oh, the constraints are simple enough; it's just incredibly hard to reason about
04:56:12 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: I assume you know about http://esolangs.org/
05:00:50 * ehird considers installing beos in a vm
05:07:31 * Sgeo wants to try OS/2 Warp or whatever it's called
05:08:04 <ehird> Warp is a version of OS/2.
05:08:39 <ehird> Sgeo: Here you go: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3497344/OS_2_Warp_4_(english_version)
05:08:58 <ehird> Even has 9 seeders.
05:09:00 * Sgeo gets a vague feeling that it's disturbing that ehird knows more about computer history than he does, since he was around for more of it than ehird
05:09:18 <ehird> I like reading about this stuff.
05:09:45 <ehird> And here's a screenshot: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Os2W4.png
05:09:48 <ehird> It certainly looks strange.
05:10:24 <Sgeo> If you told me that that was the next version of DSL, I would believe you, except for the OS/2 indications
05:10:27 <Sgeo> and DOS window
05:10:39 <ehird> Damn Small Linux is Damn Ugly. :P
05:11:17 <Sgeo> Can I just use the stuff at http://www.warpdoctor.org/downloads.html instead of a torrent?
05:12:13 <ehird> Those are just the installer program diskettes.
05:12:18 <ehird> OS/2 Warp is still under copyright.
05:12:32 <ehird> What's wrong with a torrent anyway? Just a click to download and open it.
05:13:01 <ehird> 9 seeders; surely not.
05:13:09 <ehird> Maybe your ISP shapes torrent traffic.
05:13:26 <Sgeo> And, if for some reason, some watchdog thingy were to be using it to see who's pirating..
05:13:47 <ehird> Watching OS/2 Warp?
05:14:13 <ehird> Britney Spears mp3s on LimeWire yes, old, obscure OS torrents no.
05:14:52 <ehird> Sgeo: Say that warpdoctor page offered a download of the full thing; "some watchdog thingy" could just as easily demand their HTTP logs.
05:15:51 <ehird> Anyway, downloading OS/2 Warp is about as safe as crossing a road in a ghost town without looking left and right. :P
05:16:16 <Sgeo> At any rate, I really really need to eat and go to sleep now. My dad's going to be home tonight, and being up too late is a bad idea
05:16:36 * ehird wonders what BeOS version to get
05:17:19 <ehird> http://www.aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/beos5.big.png
05:17:23 <ehird> The latest, then; R5.
05:20:51 <ehird> you are a rich man
05:20:56 <ehird> you have a computer machine that cats
05:21:07 <Gracenotes> ( http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1234340335056.jpg )
05:22:16 <ehird> "Pictured: secret area of compaq hax, also money."
05:22:23 <ehird> It's so bad it's good it's bad it's good.
05:23:23 <Gracenotes> yeah, not too sure about producing a glare effect
05:24:15 <Gracenotes> just run it through a few gaussian blurs
05:24:47 <Sgeo> Even I know what a Gaussian blur.. although you might be questioning how it can actually help
05:27:17 <ehird> i'm just trying to find out where the context of the line came from.
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05:37:27 <ehird> I want the real thing
05:38:09 <ehird> i can't find a beos 5 pro download :(
05:39:11 <ehird> seems most things only depend on r4(.5)
05:39:33 <ehird> apart from some versions with r5 fixes
05:39:45 <ehird> furthermore, it seems that as far as stability goes, r4 > r4.5 > r5
05:39:48 <ehird> so i wil hunt for r4.5
05:40:53 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3280563/BeOS_4.5
05:40:56 <ehird> voila, is like a magic
05:41:07 <ehird> oh well, let's see
05:42:08 <Gracenotes> "No, but it's really great, I've heard." ... except more awkward
05:42:36 <ehird> well, one peer has 98%
05:42:39 <ehird> let's hope the others have the rest
05:43:44 <ehird> they all have 98%, oh god :(
05:43:57 <Gracenotes> hm. I know there's no source, but surely you can find an ISO elsewhere on the web. http maybe.
05:44:38 <ehird> well it is a few hundred megs
05:46:35 <ehird> well, I do challenge you to find a BeOS r4.5 ISO via HTTP; I contend it is impossible
05:46:58 <Gracenotes> people tend to have things on hosting sites. the least endpoint of distribution of things, as it were
05:47:10 <ehird> my challenge stands
05:47:42 <ehird> what's the google thingy to search for one file extension, btw
05:47:45 <ehird> i'm getting good speeds here, although it's still unlikely I
05:47:53 <ehird> s/$/'ll get all 100% since it's 98%/
05:48:03 <ehird> Gracenotes: usenet has everything, costs money, and maxes out your connection
05:48:09 <ehird> plus the binary search engines are very good quality
05:48:13 <ehird> nothing like http at all
05:48:31 <ehird> http://www.newzleech.com/?group=&minage=&age=&min=min&max=max&q=beos&m=search&adv=
05:48:31 <Gracenotes> oh, I was saying that it wasn't http, but it is yet another place it is likely to be
05:48:57 <ehird> Gracenotes: yes, but instead of paying $15/mo for usenet I could buy BeOS.
05:49:25 <Gracenotes> quite true. how much is BeOS nowadays, dead-ish as it is?
05:52:35 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/BeOS-4-5-with-Bible/dp/B00002S7JC
05:52:49 <ehird> that's 4.5; 5 is the latest version but seems to suck more.
05:53:11 <ehird> you can get 5 personal edition, installs to a file on a windows or mac partition and boots from them, for free, but fuck that shit
05:53:22 <ehird> and 5.1 is the leaked, buggy, unreleased beta; easy to pirate
05:53:30 <ehird> not that buggy I guess, still
05:54:40 <Gracenotes> ooh, that would be the ultimate reverse engineering feat. perhaps.
05:54:51 <ehird> what are you talking about, dude
05:56:22 <Gracenotes> filling in the 2% you'd miss in the 4.5 torrent
05:56:48 <Gracenotes> sorry, where can I find a 'ridiculous idea' sticker
05:56:49 <ehird> to produce... 4.59?
05:56:58 <ehird> what do you mean, miss
05:57:09 <ehird> I don't know what you're talking about at all, you're being incomprehensible
05:57:26 <ehird> jeez, you could have mentioned
05:57:34 <ehird> with any luck, the 2% will be useless stuff
05:57:40 <ehird> like some system components I don't need
05:57:55 <ehird> or at least in a way that doesn't damage anything, just zeroes out some useless install files
05:58:20 <Gracenotes> sorry, I have this knack for subtracting numbers like '2' in my head. my teachers say I'm a mathematical prodigy
05:59:00 <ehird> the 98% figure was way up there and out of context, and i didn't really pay attention to the exact number
05:59:02 <ehird> what's up with you
06:00:00 <Gracenotes> if u payme enough i will let u into my sekrit area of arithemetics
06:04:43 <Gracenotes> now, I should be studying for my bio test
06:05:29 <ehird> maybe you should do it while less deranged
06:07:59 <Gracenotes> including such exciting flash cards as: Sulfhydryl atoms and function -> -SH, thiols. Forms molecule fastener (R-S-S-R and 2H+), strong disulfide bond
06:11:15 * ehird notes that nt 4 workstation is considerd excellent; to pirate^Winvestigate later
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07:10:30 <zzo38> Hello! Do you anyone on here, today?
07:11:44 <ehird> Warning, however: I am a robot. Beep.
07:11:58 <zzo38> I thought it was late. But, not in your timezone? Or maybe in your timezone too.
07:12:14 <ehird> Well, early: 7:12 AM.
07:12:30 <ehird> (You know I'm a robot because I say "Beep." after everything. Beep.)
07:12:37 <zzo38> I can see the time! I just sent a CTRL+A TIME message to you isn't it on the screen?
07:12:46 <ehird> Yes, in the server tab; but I didn't notice.
07:12:56 <ehird> [07:12] --- Received a CTCP TIME from zzo38
07:13:34 <ehird> Do you think this 98.59% downloaded ISO will work properly, by the way? Not that you'd know, but random people on the internet are as good a source as any.
07:13:35 <zzo38> I can also type TIME for the server time, and /TIME for my time.
07:14:11 <ehird> BeOS 4.5, from a source of questionable legality. Not like it's sold new any more, though.
07:14:17 <ehird> I'm going to try it in a virtual machine.
07:14:18 <zzo38> Do you mean if it will work even with only 98.59% or if it will work at 100%
07:14:33 <zzo38> Just try it and see if it work.
07:14:34 <ehird> Only 98.59% of it was available in the swarm of the BitTorrent file.
07:14:38 <ehird> Yeah, I'm going to.
07:14:49 <ehird> Need a boot floppy first, though.
07:14:56 <zzo38> I don't know much about the ISO file-format to understand whether or not 98.59% is good enough
07:15:34 <ehird> I'm hoping that the missing parts are in some random system component that I don't need.
07:15:52 <ehird> Aww, the boot floppy is an .exe that writes it to disk. I'll just use my Windows 95 virtual machine.
07:16:09 <zzo38> But is a incomplete ISO loadable?
07:16:51 <ehird> Maybe there's a checksum... in which case, no.
07:17:10 <zzo38> If the problem is repairable, then you could try to fix it.
07:17:29 <Azstal> I've had a corrupt ISO load before
07:17:34 <Azstal> I've also had one fail to load
07:17:50 <Azstal> presumably it will depend on where the missing bits are
07:18:29 <ehird> Guh, VirtualBox seems to fail at floppise.
07:20:14 <ehird> Maybe it needs a filesystem there already.
07:20:16 <ehird> mkfs.msdos away...
07:21:31 <ehird> (a) Not when the swarm only has 98.59% of a file. (b) It's slow and amazing.
07:22:18 <ehird> (a) Not for an OS. (b) Not always.
07:27:14 <zzo38> I'm not sure I understand you fully.
07:27:25 <ehird> I was about to say the same to you.
07:27:37 <zzo38> O, I was writing to myself.
07:29:37 * ehird gives up, elects to use the Windows 95 install CD to boot BeOS 4.5's
07:31:00 <zzo38> If you had a game which was mostly the same as Wheel of Fortune, which rules would you adjust?
07:31:37 <ehird> All the prizes would be negated, and so everyone would scramble to lose.
07:31:57 <ehird> (Note: This applies to any game with cash prizes. For instance: why not try the debt lottery?)
07:32:13 <zzo38> Well, my ideas for different rules would be a bit different.
07:32:16 <ehird> (Get all your friends to buy tickets too, or you have more of a chance of losing!)
07:32:56 <zzo38> One rule I would change, is, BANKRUPT would not lose all your points in the current round, but instead only the points you earned on the current turn and 50 additional points lost.
07:33:22 <zzo38> And, you would be allowed to pass at any time after you spin on your turn, so you don't have to spin more than once if you don't want to.
07:34:36 <zzo38> (About negating prizes to any game with cash prizes, I have actually thought about making a mahjong variant that works like this, too)
07:35:17 <ehird> The variant you could pull off in reality is "the loser wins the money".
07:35:27 <ehird> That way people would actually play...
07:36:52 <zzo38> Actually, some of my ideas were, that you are forced to take another player's tile whenever possible, make CHII declarable by any player (not only the next player), remove the yaku requirement, play with Washizu tiles, and other things, too.
07:37:19 <ehird> Make everyone play blindfolded.
07:38:24 <zzo38> Washizu tiles are of no use if blindfolded. But even if everyone play blindfolded, you would then need some sort of referee to help with the things that nobody can possibly see.
07:38:56 <ehird> The ref could just tell you what *changed* when you do a move, and you have to figure everything out from that.
07:39:18 <zzo38> Yes, I think there are some chess variants with similar ideas too
07:39:43 <zzo38> Ah, so, you just need to remember what your tiles are?
07:39:58 <zzo38> Is your initial hand not known to you?
07:40:25 <ehird> Nope. (I don't know how to play Mahjongg, though.)
07:40:27 <zzo38> Or it could be like Kriegspiel chess, where you can call any move and if it is illegal you have to try a different move.
07:40:47 <ehird> It'd basically be trying to build an image of the game in your head.
07:40:49 <zzo38> So, in mahjong you could call any tile, and if you don't have that one, the referee tells you to try a different one.
07:41:40 <zzo38> The referee would also have to tell you when you are allowed to take another player's tile
07:42:08 <zzo38> And, possibly also, in a Washizu tiles set, tell the transparent tiles to everyone, and the opaque tiles if you pick it up only to you
07:42:29 <zzo38> And then not tell anyone your initial hand, so you have to figure it out by logic
07:44:01 <ehird> BeOS should be fun; I'll make that VM in a few minutes.
07:46:23 <zzo38> Here's an example in Washizu mahjong which I have had to dealt with: Washizu has 123man/5pin/2334467sou and two opaque tiles. Which tiles is he waiting for?
07:46:37 <ehird> Pony. (I don't know Mahjongg.)
07:46:55 <zzo38> Well, since I could see the opaque 2sou and opaque 5sou, I know the 8sou is a safe tile to discard.
07:47:18 <zzo38> It is this kind of logic which you have to use in Washizu mahjong.
07:47:36 <zzo38> Are you interested to learn mahjong?
07:47:43 <zzo38> Some people are, but some isn't.
07:48:17 <ehird> I haven't seen much to suggest it's a highly interesting game.
07:50:07 <zzo38> Well, I can tell you it is a highly interesting game. And there are many different rulesets, so you can find (or make) the ruleset you prefer. I often play using the Japanese ruleset, but I have a few house-rules, too. I especially like with Washizu tiles, but I don't have a physical set of Washizu tiles or the table that goes with it.
07:52:02 <zzo38> Do you ever play poker?
07:54:10 <ehird> Poker, as far as I can ascertain, comes down to three things: (a) luck, (b) probability theory and (c) social engineering. I can't get better at (a) and I'm terrible at (c), and I don't think I could be any good solely with (b).
07:55:53 <zzo38> You are basically correct, but it is not quite as simple as that. But you are close. Mahjong deals with these three things too, but also a lot more, and often there are hidden strategies which you have just not figured out yet, until later. It happens to me, too.
07:56:35 <ehird> Mahjongg seems a lot more like a game and less an exercise in manipulating people to me, which is good.
07:57:13 <zzo38> Well, yes, mahjong is a lot more like a game and less an exercise in manipulating people.
07:57:30 <ehird> (does the name have one or two Gs?)
07:57:35 <zzo38> But there are still bluffs to make in mahjong.
07:57:50 <zzo38> Mahjong has just one 'G', not two. Some people write two but there is supposed to be only one.
07:59:54 <zzo38> In the Akagi manga, Akagi wins by doing many things that seems strange, and somewhat stupid (sometimes very stupid), but it all works. He has won with quintuple bluffs, no-ten riichi (basically you declare your hand one away from winning when it isn't, you have to pay a penalty for this in case of an exhaustive draw), and betting your life, etc.
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08:02:23 <zzo38> But one of my favorites, was, Akagi could see Washizu had two west, and west was dora (meaning your score doubles for each west you have), so he throw that one and Washizu take it to make three dora, but now he is out of yaku, so he needs three similar sequences to win.
08:03:22 <zzo38> In a few turns he adjusts to 567/567/67, but the 67 is open. He picks up a 8, and can't use it (because he exposed the three Wests earlier), so has to discard it. Now, he has furiten. So, Akagi can now throw the 5 and declare riichi, and Washizu can't pick it up because of furiten.
08:03:56 <zzo38> Do you see how it works? Such strange things don't normally happen in mahjong, but these are rare possibilities to do such things as this.
08:04:44 <ehird> Nope, since I don't know those terms.
08:07:00 <zzo38> If you pick up the tile to win yourself and nothing exposed, then you have "menzenchintsumo", which means you don't need anyone else's tiles to complete your hand. "Menzenchintsumo" is one possible yaku, but there are others.
08:07:42 <zzo38> Furiten means a tile you discarded is one that can be used to complete your hand (even with no yaku), so then you cannot take another player's tile to complete your hand (this adds to the defensive strategy of the game).
08:08:55 <zzo38> Each yaku and dora is worth a certain amount of "han". Each han doubles your score for this hand, up to a limit of 13 han, which is called "yakuman".
08:09:10 <zzo38> There are a lot of other rules too.
08:09:55 <zzo38> You can look up Japanese mahjong rules if you are interested in it.
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08:25:27 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/bG9dd.png <-- that is some high res
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08:27:46 <ehird> i.e. 1280x768 full res
08:27:57 <ehird> ok, probably 1280x1024
08:28:20 <ehird> or do you mean the imagse
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08:33:03 <AnMaster> ehird, no I mean the zoomed level
08:33:14 <AnMaster> high res of the sat that took the pic
08:33:24 <ehird> they drive vans around
08:33:51 <AnMaster> ehird, explains the perspective
08:34:01 <ehird> you can tilt it iirc
08:34:02 <coppro> ehird: I discovered a scam in Agora :D
08:34:28 <ehird> do it and give me all the profit.
08:34:45 <coppro> not sure if there's any profits
08:36:13 <ehird> beos 4.5 boot floppy gets to splash and freezes :(
08:36:27 <ehird> ooh, hold down boot and you get a menu
08:36:35 <AnMaster> "<ehird> ooh, hold down boot and you get a menu"
08:37:14 <ehird> want the real thin
08:38:16 <ehird> with all safe mode options enabled still no dice.
08:38:23 <ehird> i did read that it doesn't boot on modern systems...
08:38:27 <ehird> can qemu emulate an old system?
08:40:32 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty syre bochs (spelling?) can
08:41:09 <ehird> yes, but i'd rather buy an old bebox than try and figure out how to configure bochs properly, and then find the time to wait for it to boot up
08:42:14 <ehird> Well, at least the configuration part is. I've only got to the boot up part once before deciding to do other things before dying of old age. :P
08:42:49 <AnMaster> fair enough about the config part
08:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, gave up on the game yesterday or?
08:44:15 <ehird> BeOS did crazy, crazy, wild stuff on a 400mhz pentium pro, but I think bochs might actually be slower than that.
08:45:26 <ehird> I've read reviews; its installer consists of selecting a partition in the GUI, hitting a button and waiting. That's it.
08:45:49 <ehird> Unless your disk doesn't have a suitable partition made in Windows beforehand, in which case it displayed a partition editor, and then the installer.
08:46:42 <AnMaster> trying qemu is worth a try I guess
08:53:34 <ehird> Hmm, "error inflating file".
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09:24:43 <oklopol> from what i hear the manipulation part of poker is completely meaningless
09:29:35 <oklopol> ehird: when you all advertised it, i solved a few puzzles in it, don't especially enjoy it
09:30:46 <oklopol> also tell me if those need context, they shouldn't
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14:13:00 * oerjan suspects AnMaster's client doesn't respond to pings. either that or his lag is _really_ bad
14:13:10 <oerjan> have you tried changing server?
14:18:09 <AnMaster> * oerjan suspects AnMaster's client doesn't respond to pings. either that or his lag is _really_ bad <-- indeed no ping replies
14:18:09 <AnMaster> been lag spikes like this for weeks now
14:18:20 <AnMaster> even after changing server a few times, so I gave up a week or two ago
14:19:01 <oerjan> perhaps something in your neighborhood then
14:20:14 <oerjan> given that _i_ am using a swedish server... unless i am lagged too
14:20:39 <oerjan> nah, ehird's client replied instantly
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20:12:24 <ehird> HOW ARE THE PEACHES I WONDER
20:19:52 <ehird> Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qemu-kvm/qemu-kvm_0.11.0~rc2-0ubuntu12_amd64.deb 404 Not Found [IP: 91.189.88.45 80]
20:20:28 <ehird> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qemu-kvm/
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20:22:19 <ehird> oh, updating fixed it
20:23:14 <ehird> no binary package for kqemu in ubuntu, wtf.
20:24:15 <oklofog> incidentally, "kemut" is finnish for "party"
20:24:28 <oklofog> well. at least it was a few hundred years ago.
20:24:30 <ehird> coincidence i think not
20:25:12 <oklofog> god is telling us ubunty isn't where the party is at
20:30:05 <oklofog> so, tomorrow, i have 9 hours of communication skills
20:33:42 <oklofog> or "speech communication", literally translated... my guess is no other country has that horrible subject
20:36:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, any luck with that computer?
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20:38:16 <oerjan> <oklofog> so, tomorrow, i have 9 hours of communication skills <-- well you should use them well, then
20:38:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ordered a new AC adapter, but it'll of course take some time to get here.
20:38:48 <fizzie> Hopefully that's the cause of the problem.
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20:39:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway shouldn't system logs help (I here assume that you do remote syslog on any computer you use for any sort of server like task, like running fungot on)
20:40:51 <fizzie> You assume curious things.
20:41:27 <augur> languages do not do final voicing! :|
20:43:39 <augur> well before you were oklofog
20:43:45 <augur> now you're oklofog
20:43:49 <augur> the k voiced and became a g
20:43:55 <augur> in the end of the word
20:43:58 <augur> but languages dont do that!
20:44:01 <augur> they only DEvoice!
20:44:30 <augur> youre sucj a rebel.
20:44:41 <oklofog> what if it was fog first, so fok was devoiced, and i just dedevoiced back
20:44:52 <oklofog> but yeah i'm sort of a total rebel
20:45:05 <augur> you should front the a
20:45:34 <oklofog> i'm not sure i'm that much of a rebel
20:45:44 <augur> but you are a total fag.
20:45:48 -!- oklofog has changed nick to akloglio.
20:46:20 <oerjan> <augur> languages do not do final voicing! :| <-- never? i could imagine it happening before vowels...
20:46:35 <augur> oerjan: then its not final devoicing, is it? :)
20:46:36 <oerjan> and then spreading by analogy
20:46:38 -!- akloglio has changed nick to acloglio.
20:46:58 <oerjan> augur: i mean vowels starting the next word
20:47:33 <augur> oerjan: thats continuous speech
20:47:43 <acloglio> as if vowels ever imagine anything happening
20:47:48 <augur> those contexts very frequently eliminate the "finality"
20:48:08 <oerjan> hm also danish has many voiced ending consonants where norwegian has unvoiced ones, although i'm not entirely sure which would be oldest...
20:48:25 <augur> no thats not what i mean oerjan
20:48:35 <augur> lots of languages have both voiced and voiceless consonants at the ends of words
20:48:46 <augur> its just that when theyre pronounced, they're very frequently devoiced
20:48:59 <augur> except in continuous speech, where you get inter-word interactions
20:50:20 <oerjan> except the danish consonants tend not to be plosives like the norwegian ones, i think
20:50:41 <oerjan> like no. "mat" vs. danish "mad", where the d is like english th
20:52:45 <oerjan> although you may very well be right about process within a single language. i recall german does that, and also vaguely recall russian
20:53:40 <augur> in terms of historical change
20:53:44 <augur> final voicing is not found
20:53:58 <augur> thats not to say that you wont get something that looks like final voicing
20:54:06 <augur> it just wont be actual final voicing
20:54:29 <augur> for instance you might get something like
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20:55:19 <augur> a language might look have a rule that final vowels are deleted, and then final consonants are devoiced
20:55:19 <ehird_> No luck with the broken image.
20:55:33 <augur> so VkV and VgV -> Vk
20:56:18 <ehird_> Guess I will have to settle with r5. Woe.
20:56:32 <augur> and there might be an intervocalic voicing rule that emerges, which applies before vowel deletion
20:56:39 <augur> leading to VkV -> VgV -> Vk
20:56:56 <oerjan> that doesn't look like final voicing in any way
20:57:01 <augur> and then you just get rid of the devoicing rule
20:57:11 <augur> and you get VkV -> VgV -> Vg
20:57:28 <augur> and what previously was always Vk
20:57:40 <ehird_> shuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
20:58:51 <augur> did you know that contemporary phonological theory is NP-hard?
21:00:23 <oerjan> it's not really hard to be NP-hard
21:02:06 <augur> ehird_ gets me np-hard all the time
21:03:33 <augur> and theres nothing interesting going on in the eso world! :(
21:04:48 <ehird_> and if you think feather isn't interesting, gtfo and go die in a ditch
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21:06:52 <augur> im not sure i know what feather is
21:07:15 <ehird_> he'll confuse you further but there's nothing more you can do with feather
21:08:39 <oerjan> there will have been, though
21:09:32 <ehird_> i just didn't understand the sentence
21:09:35 <ehird_> there will have been what
21:09:54 <oerjan> something more you can do with feather
21:10:28 <oerjan> NOW FIXING JOKES, RETROACTIVELY
21:14:23 <ehird_> At least it isn't a terribly common ey.
21:15:30 <oerjan> very recently, i notice
21:15:52 <ehird_> It's probably underneath my des, which has a floor for some god nows what reason.
21:16:31 <oerjan> well it's a good thing it has a floor, you wouldn't want things to drop down under your house would you?
21:16:53 <ehird_> Well, there's two floors, see, one on my des and the other on my floor. :P
21:17:18 <oerjan> maybe it's really an outdoor desk
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22:55:31 <oerjan> (google's helpful suggestion)
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23:47:54 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176107
23:49:47 <ehird_> tn: ubiquitous, cheap, simply appalling colour reproduction (as in, trivially noticeable compared to an ips by even the most untrained eye)
23:49:57 <ehird_> terrible viewing angle
23:50:04 <ehird_> everything inverts and goes to shit quickly
23:50:07 <ehird_> you're probably using a tn now
23:50:23 <ehird_> ips is rare, less cheap (ok, ok, not cheap) and rules
23:51:12 <ehird_> you use ellipses more than AnMaster
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23:55:12 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001317
23:56:04 <ehird_> on the other hand, you'll squint at bitmaps made for ~96ppi displays. also, it's glossy. also, it's 16:9, which sucks for computer usage vs 16:10
23:56:26 <ehird_> ((ha! I resisted saying ips!))
23:58:07 <ehird_> congratulations, you have mastered the dumb-consumer reasoning that the companies depend on
00:01:07 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001323R
00:01:52 <ehird_> open box = returned = shit's probably fucked
00:03:51 <ehird_> (for the record, cheapest 24" ips = http://www.amazon.com/LP2475W-24in-LCD-Monitor-1920X1200/dp/B001FS1LLI/)
00:05:17 <ehird_> an abacus is way cheaper than a computer
00:05:20 <ehird_> bit crappy for computing, though.
00:09:23 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Touch-T260-25-5-inch-Monitor/dp/B0019ASAY8/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=pc&qid=1254697590&sr=1-27
00:10:19 <ehird_> doesn't even mention the resolution, lol
00:10:47 <ehird_> 24" 1920x1200 is only 94ppi already
00:11:10 <ehird_> even old, really crappy monitors are 84 ppi
00:11:26 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood_: so you'll see the pixel grid all the time and it looks like shit, I know because I have one lying around
00:11:41 <ehird_> also, everything looks bigger which makes it feel like you're using 800x600
00:13:03 <ehird_> also, pretty sure their marketing blurb about light translates to "lol glossy shit".
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00:17:49 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood_: so if your monitor is a paragon of excellence why are you buyng a new one :P
00:18:33 <coppro> Gregor: the SGU theme music reminds me of your Op. 11 :D
00:19:30 <ehird_> Shitting Gonad Urethras isn't something you should be proud of watching, coppro.
01:09:42 <augur> wait wait coppro what
01:14:20 <augur> i think im into copprophilia
01:14:42 <augur> im just talkin bout coppro!
01:14:50 <ehird_> we don't need to know about your love of copp- dammit
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01:41:53 <coppro> augur: yes, the SGU theme :)
01:42:06 <augur> coppro: you has link to gregor's op 11?
01:42:42 <coppro> http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
01:43:25 <coppro> specifically the scales in the middle parts
01:44:26 <augur> and the SGU theme?
01:45:33 <coppro> Don't know; I heard it listening to SGU
01:46:25 <Sgeo> Isn't SGA still going on?
01:46:45 <Sgeo> Erm, Stargate Atlantis
01:46:53 <Sgeo> What's the correct way to abbreviate that?
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01:48:09 <ehird_> That ended in January, says my magic Wikipedophile powers.
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01:49:20 <Asztal> There's a film planned, though, straight to DVD like the ark of truth and continuum.
01:50:07 * Sgeo must find a way to watch The IT Crowd season 3
01:51:02 <Sgeo> Preferably without torrents
01:51:17 <ehird_> arbitraryrequirementsatisfactionzone.ridiculous
01:51:52 <augur> surfthechannel.com
01:53:14 <ehird_> sweet, lower quality, buffering and in many cases just as illegal
01:53:22 <ehird_> what more could you *possibly* want
01:54:17 <Sgeo> It doesn't "feel" as illegal
01:54:31 <ehird_> sweet, tell that to the judge
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01:55:08 <ehird_> "I know she's 13, but officer, it didn't FEEL illegal!"
01:56:52 <augur> it'd feel very illegal
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01:58:11 <Gregor> augur: Are you saying I prerippedoff SGU? :P
01:58:31 <augur> gregor: are you trying to talk to coppro?
01:59:02 <augur> gregor, did you write op 11 yourself, or is this an algo?
01:59:05 <coppro> Gregor: Not that close together; just similar
01:59:28 <Gregor> augur: You're either calling me a friggin' amazing programmer, or a terrible composer.
02:00:06 <Gregor> The autocomposed music all has titles. Furthermore, the titles are all of the form <adverb> <adjective> <style of music>
02:00:22 <augur> its not bad you know
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02:01:57 <Gregor> Your name is original and unique.
02:01:59 <ehird_> what happened to the other 79
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02:02:52 <Gregor> More original and unique.
02:04:09 <ehird_> LadyT: wherefrom comesforth you
02:04:46 <Gregor> I'm not convinced that "wherefrom" or "comesforth" are real (even antiquated) words :P
02:05:04 <augur> you should keep working on Op 11
02:05:08 <augur> it has great potential
02:05:14 <Gregor> I'm working on a string quartet of it.
02:05:14 <LadyT> yah, a bit theatrical
02:05:34 <ehird_> Gregor: see, if they're here for the esoterick magick, they'll take it as normal
02:05:38 <ehird_> if not, they'll point it out
02:05:42 <ehird_> it's my secret super-efficient detection system
02:05:47 <Gregor> ehird_: Well aren't ye clevar.
02:05:48 <ehird_> and you just ruined it :|
02:05:57 <Gregor> ehird_: It's what I do.
02:06:08 <oerjan> reminds me of Jim in Darths & Droids
02:06:12 <augur> i want to learn piano so i can play art of the fugue
02:06:24 <augur> apparently people to play it really well
02:06:28 <Gregor> augur: Then learn to play the harpsichord :P
02:06:30 <augur> you have to be capable of separating out the voices
02:06:43 <augur> so that you can actually modify each voice independent
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02:09:15 <ehird_> ok this is just ridiculous
02:09:22 <ehird_> LadyT261: quick! what is the purpose of this channel?
02:09:24 <Gregor> LadyT seems to be cloning.
02:10:47 <LadyT261> I got punted ... now have this 261 added to my nickname
02:11:07 <oerjan> but your other nick is still here...
02:11:21 <LadyT261> very new to IRC ... i don't understand why
02:11:45 <ehird_> LadyT261: quick! what is the purpose of this channel? :|
02:11:53 <oerjan> bad connections happen
02:12:06 <oerjan> ehird_ is so suspicious
02:12:48 <Gregor> I'm too lazy to figure out why HackEgo keeps d/cing.
02:13:05 <ehird_> LadyT261: let me simplify. esoterica or esolangs
02:13:10 <LadyT261> ehird seems to be on the list twice as well, once with an underscore and the other not
02:13:17 <ehird_> yes, the other one is my ghost.
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02:13:54 <LadyT261> must be esoterica cause i don't know what esolangs w
02:14:11 <ehird> LadyT261: programming. did you flinch or smile at that previous sentence
02:14:15 <ehird> (i cannot make this any simpler)
02:15:16 <Gregor> augur: Incidentally, the string quartet version of this could be subtitled "Making cellists everywhere hate Gregor"
02:15:46 <ehird> LadyT261: ok, if you're here for esoteric programming languages you're in the right place, if not, wrong place
02:15:54 <Gregor> All the arpeggios in the left hand go to the cello (more-or-less unavoidable)
02:15:59 <LadyT261> ehird: shall I pay the $200 so that I may pass GO
02:16:23 <ehird> well i'm pretty sure you have a monopoly on incomprehension right now indeed
02:16:28 <oerjan> now now, let's not monopolize this situation
02:16:38 <ehird> i did it better :|
02:16:49 <ehird> LadyT261: #esoteric = programming languagse
02:16:55 <ehird> LadyT261 = in #esoteric
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02:19:08 <oerjan> ok _now_ this gets ridiculous :D
02:19:17 <ehird> LadyT261466: this channel has still not strayed from the topic of programming languages with your reconnection :P
02:19:21 <Sgeo> ehird, it occurs to me that without BitTorrent, I'm not actually providing the copyrighted materials myself
02:19:38 <ehird> downloading is equally illegal.
02:19:40 <oerjan> ehird: well it wasn't really _on_ it to begin with you know
02:20:36 * ehird stabs LadyT261466 will a rusty fork
02:20:49 <ehird> i am left with no alternatives
02:21:04 <ehird> you just don't understand economics, Gregor
02:21:27 <oerjan> LadyT261466: if your nick goes on adding digits like this, you'll go over the length limit
02:21:44 <ehird> worst dinosaur comics spinoff ever
02:22:39 <oerjan> LadyT261466: he's probably just tired, it's 2 AM where he is...
02:22:45 <ehird> i'm actually perfectly relaxed :P
02:23:27 <oerjan> ehird: you still need some meds, any doctor would bet
02:23:42 <LadyT261466> thx oerjan - i am hanging around cause i use to be in the industry a very long time ago
02:24:27 <ehird> well that is probably of the esoteric variety albeit likely unintentionally...
02:24:47 <augur> is there a pattern
02:24:51 <augur> to the lady's numbers
02:25:02 <ehird> it's the fibonocci sequence
02:25:02 <LadyT261466> so was interested is seeing what the new stuff is about
02:25:17 <ehird> well, our stuff is new, but it isn't exactly designed to be sane...
02:25:22 <oerjan> augur: i think we would have to ask a numerologist, and that would be the wrong kind of esoteric
02:25:30 <ehird> ...esoteric programming language = language deliberately designed to be awkward and of no practical use
02:25:42 <augur> ehird, i disagree with that definition
02:25:48 <augur> that is more like a tarpit than anything
02:26:05 <ehird> show me an esolang designed to be easy to use and of practical use
02:26:10 <ehird> and i'll show you something that isn't an seolang
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02:26:37 <augur> i was gonna say haskell but then i realized its not easy to use or of practical use e.e
02:26:37 <oerjan> augur: no a tarpit must be minimalistic too
02:26:47 <ehird> augur: intel uses it, QED
02:26:56 <ehird> anyway haskell isn't an esolang
02:27:00 <augur> doesnt mean its easy to use or practical!
02:27:20 <augur> i enjoy the fact that the lambda calculus cannot be said to have types. :T
02:27:21 <ehird> it's obviously practical because it's used by various companies for practical purposes, and has been shown to excel at such applications
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02:38:49 <Gregor> Wow, timidity's freepats have the QUIETEST friggin' violins ever.
02:39:02 <Gregor> I literally cannot hear them at all.
02:39:11 <pikhq> An esoteric programming language is a language deliberately designed to be bizarre, with complete disregard for ease of use or practicality.
02:39:14 <Gregor> (Unless they're playing alone)
02:40:16 <ehird> pikhq: basically what i said :P
02:41:29 <pikhq> ehird: Pretty much.
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03:24:34 <Ilari> You have seen the "E-Mail address validator regexp"? Well, something much worse: Luhn algorithm as regexp. Only ~171TB (if I got the FA-to-regexp conversion right). :->
03:25:20 <ehird> the email validator is wrong, only handles 6 depths of nested comnents
03:25:32 <ehird> Ilari: where did you get 171T(i)B of storage?
03:26:19 <Ilari> Calculated its length using dynamic programming techniques (I also wrote program that starts spewing that regexp to stdout).
03:26:39 <ehird> Write a program that executes it using an incremental regexp engine of some sort.
03:26:47 <ehird> Ask Cray for a CPU fast enough :-)
03:28:32 <Ilari> This computer can spew that regexp out only at about half a meg per second... :-/
03:29:25 <ehird> What language? I'm happy to run it on this 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo... not exactly a monster machine, but presumably rather faster.
03:29:48 <ehird> Ilari: With that machine-code-JIT I hope...
03:30:17 <ehird> Ilari: Why on earth?
03:30:31 <ehird> Isn't it just a matter of running luajit instead of lua?
03:30:48 <Ilari> Don't have that installed...
03:31:07 <ehird> It's slightly below competitive with C performance, so that should help immensely.
03:31:13 <ehird> Well, in benchmarks.
03:31:19 <ehird> It's more like 4x faster than Lua in practice, iirc.
03:31:48 <ehird> But that's in boring "typical" code. Something number-crunching, much more x, I bet.
03:32:13 <Ilari> The program first computes recursive table representation of the regexp (takes ~0.02s) and then starts to recursively walking that table and spewing stuff out.
03:32:56 <ehird> If you want I'll install luajit and give it a go. Not sure how to measure how fast it's going, though.
03:35:26 <Ilari> Speeds measured by piping output to dd of=/dev/null and then SIGUSR1 after a while.
03:35:41 <ehird> Well that's simple enough.
03:36:58 <oerjan> hm an FSA for that would only have 20 states, right?
03:37:14 <oerjan> weird that it would blow up so much...
03:37:25 <Ilari> Epsilon-NFA with 21 states was used as starting point.
03:37:29 <ehird> Ilari: show the code?
03:38:06 <Ilari> Nondeterministic Finite Automata.
03:38:19 <oerjan> why in the world would it be nondeterministic
03:39:11 <ehird> that's what NFAs are
03:39:38 <oerjan> no i mean, i don't see why that algorithm would give a nondeterministic automaton
03:40:03 <oerjan> at least if you parse from the right
03:40:39 <oerjan> you just need to track the sum mod 10 and position even-/oddness afaict
03:41:00 <Ilari> http://pastebin.ca/1593593
03:42:11 <ehird> gratuitous semicolon syndrome
03:43:22 <ehird> ljit_dasm.c:35:2: error: #error "No support for this architecture (yet)"
03:43:40 <oerjan> Ilari: ok, that looks deterministic to me
03:44:38 <Ilari> oerjan: It isn't. State 1 can transition without input to either 2 or 12...
03:45:15 <oerjan> ah. i think that's only because you parse from the left...
03:45:22 <ehird> /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory
03:45:28 <oerjan> you don't know whether the position is odd or even to start with
03:45:37 <ehird> i'm not making a fucking 32 bit chroot
03:45:42 <ehird> sry Ilari, 's gonna have to be regular lua
03:45:48 <oerjan> if you do it from the right, that will be unnecessary
03:46:47 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/NIH$ lua luhn.lua | dd of=/dev/null
03:46:47 <ehird> ^C38624+0 records in
03:46:47 <ehird> 38624+0 records out
03:46:47 <ehird> 19775488 bytes (20 MB) copied, 16.7148 s, 1.2 MB/s
03:46:47 <ehird> lua: (error with no message)
03:47:07 <ehird> that's with X11 running GNOME, a Gecko-based web browser, gnome-terminal, xchat-gnome and tons of shit that I have no idea in the backgroun
03:47:40 <ehird> so not really much better than yours, but i imagine your setup is rather more minimal
03:48:41 <ehird> Ilari: any way to make it dual-core?
03:53:45 <Ilari> The algorithm is just plain serial.
03:53:48 <ehird> Ilari: I think I'll rewrite your program in C
03:53:51 <ehird> should be simple enough
03:55:41 <ehird> Ilari: why did you use strings in translen btw?
03:56:11 <Ilari> ehird: It was modified from program that computed lengths. So translen name remained.
03:56:21 <ehird> i meant the elements
03:57:09 <Ilari> Its regex-automata. The FA-to-regex algo starts by reinterpreting the FA as regex-automata.
03:57:27 <ehird> right, i just don't see why "1" instead of 1
03:57:32 <ehird> i guess more convenient to print in lua
03:58:20 <Ilari> Those are among the leaf nodes of expression tree it constructs.
03:58:38 <Ilari> Or more like trie...
03:59:12 * ehird decides to rewrite the algo verbatim due to not bothering to understand it
03:59:26 <ehird> i take it the parallel table is used as a 2d array?
04:00:59 <ehird> right, fixed length of bools
04:05:26 <ehird> hmm lua has 1-based indices doesn't it, this will truly be fun to translate
04:08:21 <ehird> Ilari: with s there, won't this thing eventually run out of memory?
04:08:30 <ehird> due to the ever bigger and bigger strings kept in memory
04:09:25 <Sgeo> Apparently, not only is DS broken on future Windows versions, it will also be broken in future Ubuntu versions
04:09:51 <Sgeo> No more lib-gtk-1.2
04:10:12 <Sgeo> Discussion ongoing in Sine
04:10:51 <ehird> just build gtk 1.2
04:10:57 <ehird> i bet you could even make a ppa
04:10:59 <Sgeo> coppro, Docking Station
04:11:22 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Docking_Station
04:14:32 <ehird> hmm, let's see... I believe you can calculate the length of s before making it
04:14:44 <ehird> by doing the logical calculations first... oh, I had better store the length of strings with them in trans
04:17:27 <Ilari> Aaargh... The algo has mistake in it. It prints S12, but it should print S12(S22)*
04:17:45 <ehird> i've mostly done the tables, hope it isn't those that change :P
04:18:16 <Ilari> Well, that algo computes both S12 and S22
04:19:44 <Ilari> Actually, that still wouldn't be correct if there was non-null S11 or S21, but both of those are null.
04:21:16 <Ilari> Nifty: If one inverses the i to count down from 21 to 3 (instead of going up from 3 to 21), the regex size drops to ~16.6MB :-/
04:21:39 <ehird> That's like the paper spawning Graham's Number; upper bound G64, lower bound 6.
04:21:45 <ehird> Turns out closer to 6.
04:21:58 <ehird> Sheesh, and I was all translating.
04:22:14 <Ilari> It should be easy change (at least it is in original code).
04:22:27 <ehird> Yeah, but if it's only 16 meg... :-)
04:22:33 <ehird> I thought being that big was fishy.
04:22:52 <Ilari> There may be even better orders resulting even smaller regexps.
04:23:20 <ehird> Clearly it needs bruteforcing.
04:24:33 <Ilari> More like Genetic Algorithm. 121 645 100 408 832 000 choices for order...
04:24:54 <coppro> ehird: not hard to be closer to 6 than to G64
04:25:15 <coppro> almost half of all numbers between the two managed it!
04:25:15 <Ilari> Actually, I think the optimal order might indeed be the reverse oder.
04:25:53 <ehird> The lower bound was later improved by Exoo[2003], who showed the solution to be at least 11, and provided experimental evidence suggesting that it is at least 12. Thus, the best known bounding estimate for the solution N* is 11 ≤ N* ≤ G, where G is Graham's number.
04:27:07 <coppro> so in other words, statistically, it's more likely closer to G than to 6
04:29:01 <ehird> yes, but I read that the current guess is that it's low
04:29:21 <ehird> i may be misremembering
04:29:59 <Ilari> Matching the string right-to-left produces regex about half the size of left-to-right regex (~171MB with increasing i, ~8.3MB with decreasing i).
04:30:58 <ehird> he said that before
04:31:03 <ehird> except 11 instead of 8 iirc
04:31:09 <ehird> Ilari: filebin.ca the 8 meg regexp?
04:31:57 <Sgeo> Scanning has encountered a problem from which it cannot recover. Here are the problem details: Error getting scan progress.
04:34:36 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:34:51 -!- oklopol has joined.
04:44:12 <ehird> oklopol i defined a manifold of oklopol
04:47:06 <oerjan> is it a smooth manifold
04:47:31 <ehird> it has no properties
04:47:53 <ehird> even the property of having no property
04:48:46 <oerjan> the very opposite of a complex, analytical manifold
04:48:46 <ehird> it is SO fucking mathematical
04:48:51 <ehird> ah but it is those
04:48:54 <ehird> and it isn't those
04:50:58 <ehird> wittgenstein was totally metal.
04:51:04 <ehird> he was not human, he was metal
04:51:14 <ehird> carbon based lifeform, metal, what is the difference really.
04:51:29 <oerjan> nietzsche, on the other hand, was dynamite
04:52:32 <ehird> einstein was in fact made out of hitlerium, an element censored from the periodic table; it is only present in the continuous table
04:52:53 <ehird> although some recommend the periodic chair as a well-structured alternative to both
04:52:54 <oerjan> apparently carbon is considered a metal in cosmology
04:53:26 <ehird> Galois was actually a buckminsterfullerene.
04:55:52 <ehird> euler had a condition where he could only remember vague details about people and not to any great extent, no matter what the person. this lead to the common joke of the time, "Euler? I 'ardly know 'er!"
04:55:59 * ehird sets up anti-swatting forcefield
04:57:14 <oerjan> euler knew 'er well, actually, being he had 13 children
04:58:01 <ehird> terrible novelty rap idea: euler pimpin'
05:01:02 <ehird> your opinion is almost certainly false.
05:01:22 <ehird> ok, that was mildly amusing
05:01:44 <ehird> although i note that my brain must be adjusting my expectations for xkcd, because i didn't even smile or chuckle internally.
05:02:00 <ehird> beats the last one.
05:02:32 <ehird> that line was funnier than the whole xkcd, which is saying something
05:02:56 <ehird> that one comic that is, not the whole of xkcd, which used to be great.
05:06:41 <Gregor> ehird: But it pales in comparison to QWANTZ!!!
05:07:28 <ehird> I'd say xkcd used to be as good as Dinosaur Comics, just different. As in: as good, but on a different metric.
05:07:36 <ehird> Nowadays, no competition. <3 qwantz
05:11:12 <Gregor> I wurve Dinosaur Comics, I give it more than 3. >3 qwantz
05:12:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/Op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-wipp1.ogg why do I keep doing these things? Yet another (partially-completed) piece I will never actually hear.
05:13:52 <Gregor> Because I am not a string quartet.
05:14:12 <ehird> a string quartet could play it
05:14:21 * pikhq gives Gregor several more arms and the ability to play string instruments
05:14:32 <Gregor> ehird: I have neither the skill, connections or money to make such an eventuality come to pass.
05:14:40 <ehird> someone else could spontaneously compose it
05:14:41 <Gregor> That's right, I have neither of those three things.
05:14:55 <ehird> also, virtual string quartet technology could reach a high point.
05:15:36 <ehird> Gregor: I have a T-Rex is Lonely submission.
05:15:47 <Gregor> Comics, title, alt text.
05:15:57 <Gregor> , contributor name/pseudonym
05:17:05 <ehird> 820,716; Uhh I'll have to think; something along the lines of "some things are just too awesome to let sinister robot clones get in the way"? I don't know, I'm a munger, not a title text author! You need committees for this stuff; ehird
05:17:11 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=5,5&comics=820,716&strip uber-convenient linkomatron
05:17:40 <Gregor> ehird: There's somebody else talking.
05:17:48 <ehird> i didn't even notice that
05:18:02 <ehird> photoshop the dialog line to t-rex, it works just as well! or don't.
05:18:19 <Gregor> I hate rejecting the there's-somebody-eelse-talking-who-isn't-really-plot-relevant-for-the-munge-but-kinda-ruins-the-whole-T-Rex-being-lonely-thing ones.
05:18:33 <ehird> is that "somebody else, who is an eel"?
05:18:50 <ehird> the t-rex-is-lonely thing makes the second panel funnier
05:19:00 <ehird> the bold text being equivalent to "DURING THE NIGHT NOTHING HAPPENED:"
05:20:08 <ehird> Last week the world's pink banana supplies were depleted.
05:20:40 <ehird> YES. Every single pink banana supply in existence was emptied.
05:21:01 <ehird> Also, all the anti-gravity gorillas invaded Poland.
05:21:20 <Gregor> I hear every one in existence at the time was in the prime minister of Poland's personal sex-toy collection at the time anyway.
05:21:39 <oerjan> i suggest an ersatz of ordinary bananas covered in pink elephant hide
05:21:51 <ehird> Gregor: That doesn't work; it has to be a statement about all the members of an empty set
05:21:55 <ehird> otherwise it's false
05:22:14 <Gregor> ehird: ... it is a statement about all members of an empty set.
05:22:20 <Gregor> The set of pink bananas.
05:22:34 <ehird> I hear all the residents of the city in the Queen of England's vagina had a protest about it.
05:22:43 <ehird> (Sometimes I wonder what sort of brain I have to come up with concepts like that.)
05:23:06 <oerjan> as for personal sex-toy collection, i'd suspect the president more than the prime minister
05:24:21 <Gregor> I know nothing of Poland's government, except that it's probably neither fascism nor an anarchosyndicalist commune.
05:25:01 <ehird> THUS MAKING IT INHERENTLY UNINTERESTING
05:25:02 <oerjan> well the president and prime minister used to be twins
05:25:17 <oerjan> then they gave the prime minister the boot, the president is still there
05:25:23 <ehird> i'd totally go live in a fascist anarchosyndicalist commune
05:25:38 <ehird> with all the paradoxical architecture.
05:25:51 <ehird> i hear it's basically one big mc escher painting
05:26:10 <oerjan> well, until you notice the tentacles
05:27:00 <Gregor> No wonder we keep forgetting about it.
05:27:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaczynski
05:27:54 <oerjan> exercise: order those by craziness
05:28:11 <ehird> well Theodore Kaczynski probably comes in at the top...
05:28:28 <oerjan> let's not be too sure of that
05:28:30 <ehird> [[David Kaczynski (born October 3, 1949) is the Executive Director of New Yorkers For Alternatives to the Death Penalty,[1] and the brother of the "Unabomber" Theodore Kaczynski.]]
05:28:32 <ehird> [[He is also a practicing Buddhist and is a vegetarian.]]
05:29:02 <Gregor> How can every famous person of that name have been born within a decade of each other :P
05:31:08 <oerjan> hm i theorize they are actually aliens who got stranded here after that roswell crash
05:36:53 <augur> you might be interested in these books that i got off gigapedia
05:36:56 <Gregor> augur: Why do you always highlight me before actually typing the message? :P
05:37:00 <augur> about music structure
05:37:13 <augur> its the vocative, ok
05:37:26 <augur> if english still had a function vocative, id use it
05:38:17 <ehird> because we just see you as saying "name" to us
05:38:26 <ehird> in our highlight notifier thingummies.
05:39:03 <ehird> augur: don't you mean
05:39:21 <augur> IN YOUR ATTEMPT TO MOCK ME
05:39:25 <augur> YOU HAVE DONE WHAT YOU MOCK ME FOR
05:39:33 <ehird> THAT IS CALLED PARODY DICKWIPE
05:39:41 <augur> actually its called irony
05:39:41 <ehird> ("DICKWIPE" IS NOT SENSEMAKING)
05:39:54 <augur> WERE TALKING IN FORTRAN
05:40:04 <ehird> Were not shouting isn't grammatically correct, you know.
05:40:12 <Gregor> What am I waiting for?
05:40:17 <augur> gregor, theres this book composing music with computers, and cognition of basic musical structures, that you might be interested in
05:40:28 <augur> those are them sir
05:40:47 <Gregor> I didn't recognize that as I'm too tired to think.
05:40:50 <Gregor> And to that end, *sleep*
05:40:50 <augur> ehird: yes it is grammatically correctly. it just doesnt have punctuation that you want.
05:41:00 <ehird> grammatically correctly?
05:41:04 <augur> unfortunately, ehird, i dont care about your need for punctuation.
05:41:16 <ehird> anyway if you're going to ignore the laws of the english language, I'm going to interpret it how I want as you give no reference point
05:41:23 <augur> SUFFIX AUFNAHME, GOD.
05:41:24 <ehird> you did WHAT to the banana?
05:41:27 <ehird> that's fucking gross, man
05:41:34 <ehird> you raped that three-year-old.
05:41:36 <augur> im not ignoring the laws of the english language
05:41:42 <augur> im ignoring the laws of english orthography.
05:41:59 <ehird> which is part of the english language; wait, what did I say?
05:42:03 <ehird> never mind, weird tic there
05:42:11 <augur> actually no, orthography is not part of the language
05:42:13 <ehird> you're fucking deranged doing that to a new-born baby and a gorilla
05:42:18 <augur> its part of a cultural convention to record the language.
05:42:28 <augur> i am more intimately familiar with the laws of the english language than you ever will be and dont make me prove it! >O
05:42:29 <ehird> what's that? you have an urge to bomb the usa?
05:42:32 <ehird> well okay, I'll just call the fbi
05:42:35 * oerjan sneakily removes ehird's anti-swatting forcefield
05:42:55 <pikhq> augur: Star handing out parse trees.
05:42:56 <augur> BUT YOU DIDNT PUT UP YOUR ANTI PENIS FORCEFIELD
05:43:03 <ehird> Star handing? What?
05:43:12 <augur> pikhq: i could hand out parse trees. this is an idea.
05:43:25 <ehird> augur: you'd need to hand out parse trees of your parse trees
05:43:27 <augur> but i should instead start demanding he explain island constraints
05:43:28 <ehird> otherwise there's the same problem
05:43:32 <ehird> you need fixed point parse trees
05:44:08 <augur> kid probably doesnt even KNOW what an island constraint even IS! :|
05:44:28 <oerjan> i suggest constraining this to greenland
05:44:46 <oerjan> then maybe you'll cool down
05:44:50 <augur> hey, dont get all snooty that greenland just declared independence
05:44:52 <pikhq> augur: Make those parse trees be in sexp notation. I highly doubt he will claim not to know sexps. :P
05:45:07 <oerjan> augur: er, that's a little of an overstatement
05:45:19 <augur> oerjan youd better shut up
05:45:32 <augur> otherwise the glorious armies of the greenlandic empire will crush you
05:45:54 <oerjan> they don't have enough people for a glorious army
05:46:32 <augur> pikhq: itd be difficult to do that tho i think. a lot of contemporary parse trees also involve movement, which is tricky to denote without actual tree diagrams
05:47:41 <pikhq> augur: Yeah, natural languages *are* quite a bit less well-suited to such notation as "sexps". Bit of a pain.
05:48:00 <augur> well, some people think otherwise, but alas, they are silly.
05:48:24 <Asztal> That's why we have Ithkuil
05:48:46 <augur> ithkuil is all morphology
05:48:55 <augur> and almost no syntax
05:49:01 <augur> and certainly no real syntax
05:49:26 <augur> i have great respect for quijada, but he, like most conlangers, neglects syntax
05:49:32 <augur> probably for lack of understanding.
05:50:00 <augur> of all the overt parts of language, syntax is by far the most mysterious and complicated.
05:50:11 <augur> morphology maybe less so, depending on your view of its relation to syntax
05:50:18 <pikhq> It occurs to me that legal systems really need access to things like patch and diff.
05:50:29 <pikhq> 'Article 7 shall be amended as follows:
05:50:29 <pikhq> (a) throughout the Article, the word "assent" shall be replaced by "consent", the reference to breach "of principles mentioned in Article 6(1)" shall be replaced by a reference to breach "of the values referred to in Article 2" and the words "of this Treaty" shall be replaced by "of the Treaties";'
05:50:50 <augur> pikhq: thats too sensible a thing to have.
05:50:52 <coppro> pikhq: there was a /. article about that today
05:50:54 <pikhq> That is so very... Hard to grok what it's doing.
05:51:07 <ehird> agora is better-organised than the law.
05:51:16 <ehird> come to think of it, so is B.
05:51:49 <coppro> Agora doesn't use diff, Agora uses whatever bloody means we feel like of specifying amendments
05:51:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
05:52:01 <pikhq> Agora, too, could probably use diff or patch. But it seems much less necessary.
05:52:23 <Warrigal> I find it weird when people claim that language itself is spoken and writing is just a representation of it.
05:52:42 <ehird> Which wasn't weird when it was implemented!
05:52:43 <augur> warrigal: well, yes, language is more than just speech
05:52:53 <augur> when English generally means spoken english
05:53:01 <augur> the rules for written english are not the same as spoken english
05:53:11 <ehird> writing is far more important than speech.
05:53:16 <Warrigal> Written English can be made to approximate spoken English, or it can be generated directly.
05:53:22 <augur> and orthography is the loosest part of written english, anyway.
05:53:46 <augur> warrigal, have you been reading derrida?
05:54:37 <Warrigal> While the two media can mostly represent each other, certain things, such as s/- -/- -/, are peculiar to one medium.
05:54:44 <Warrigal> I sound like I've been reading Derrida, don't I.
05:54:56 <augur> DIFFERANCE DIFFERANCE DIFFERANCE
05:55:10 <augur> what is this s/- -/- -/
05:55:37 <ehird> presumably a fucked up attempt at a regexp
05:56:14 <Warrigal> Actually more like an all-over-the-place-fix.
05:57:06 <augur> what is it that is peculiar to one medium here now
05:57:26 <Warrigal> Well, "s/everyday/every day/" is certainly more likely to be written than spoken.
05:57:49 <AnMaster> <ehird_> bit crappy for computing, though. <-- better than a computer if you are out of electricity ;P
05:58:03 <ehird> i use a potato for all my computation needs.
05:58:21 <ehird> i am currently sitting on a power line, chiseling this potato that i connected to it with a headphone wire.
05:58:41 <augur> warrigal: well, spaces are a written phenomena, so you're write in that regard :P
05:58:51 <AnMaster> wth ← is mapped to both AltGr+i and AltGr+y today. Usually the arrow pointing the other way is mapped to AltGr+y but today it seems gone
05:58:52 <ehird> that was a pun write?
05:59:10 <Warrigal> Well, something like "s/this/these/" as well.
05:59:32 <augur> this/these are different in number, and show up both in spoken and written english
05:59:36 <AnMaster> err usually the altgr+i is the other one
05:59:39 <augur> in exactly the same contexts
06:00:09 <Warrigal> Yes, but I highly doubt a person would say "s/this/these/" out loud. They'd say, "Er, I mean 'these', not 'this'."
06:00:42 <Warrigal> (Though if they did say it out loud, would they say "ess slash this slash these slash" or just "ess this these"?)
06:00:43 <augur> oh i see what you mean
06:01:02 <augur> the actual <s/ / /> construction
06:01:04 <ehird> s/this/these/ is not english.
06:01:13 <augur> well, yes, as ehird said, thats not english.
06:01:16 <augur> not even written english.
06:01:49 <ehird> it's a useful adoption into obsessed-programmer-internet-typed-english, but that's a distinct language from english.
06:01:52 <Warrigal> It's a construction used in conjunction with English.
06:02:12 <augur> that doesnt make it english
06:02:55 <Warrigal> If I say "I understand what the raison d'etre of this product is", presumably I'm not switching to French and back in the middle of that sentence.
06:03:11 <ehird> raison d'etre has been adopted into english
06:03:14 <augur> no, but thats a phrase that has been adopted into english.
06:03:20 <ehird> s/foo/bar/ has not, and furthermore only applies in written english
06:03:23 <ehird> well, not even written english
06:03:24 <augur> stop precopying me.
06:03:27 <ehird> english typed on the internet
06:03:42 <ehird> which is nowhere near ubiquitous enough to be actual english
06:03:48 <augur> so you might say its dialect specific, in some sense
06:03:54 <augur> but its not english in the general sense.
06:03:57 <ehird> "social recluse english"
06:04:13 <Warrigal> I don't think any degree of ubiquity is required for something to be an English word.
06:04:34 <pikhq> Y'mean English doesn't have every word? :P
06:05:15 <ehird> <Warrigal> I don't think any degree of ubiquity is required for something to be an English word.
06:05:21 <ehird> most ridiculous assertion i've heard today
06:05:29 <Warrigal> It doesn't have every word, but it does have the word "prederelictionism" despite the fact that nobody ever uses that word.
06:05:50 <ehird> people did in the past, if it's english
06:06:04 <ehird> also, http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=prederelectionism&btnG=Search&meta=
06:06:05 <augur> well, warrigal, it has that word regardless of people using it or not
06:06:08 <ehird> i find your claim dubious
06:06:12 <augur> because its generable by the grammar of the language
06:06:34 <augur> its not a compound
06:06:37 <augur> its just morphologically complex
06:07:10 <Warrigal> I suppose I wonder what it takes for a word to be "adopted into" English.
06:07:32 <augur> ask a dialectologist.
06:07:48 <augur> the notion of "english" is already well beyond anything we can grasp concretely
06:08:15 <augur> there is no clear way of "language" vs "dialect"
06:08:25 <Warrigal> You guys have been making claims about the dubject without being dialectologists, haven't you?
06:08:34 <augur> any definition either makes everyone speak a different language, or makes everyone in europe speak the same language.
06:08:57 <augur> im a syntactician/semanticist. this predisposes me to make claims about things i know nothing about
06:09:59 <ehird> recelogical douchebags!
06:10:02 <Warrigal> Anyway, my Internet connection is being unhappy, so I guess I'll be going now.
06:10:17 <ehird> but i am happily uncaught
06:11:50 <augur> you are british afterall, so one might expect.
06:12:21 <ehird> lawl, that thought process crossed my head but i couldn't think of a way to continue that trail of thought into ever more ridiculous words without seeming creepy
06:12:39 <augur> i have no problems with being creepy
06:13:16 <augur> in my windowless van over here theres lots of icecream
06:13:24 <ehird> i am a discerning pedophile-victim-to-be, you see.
06:14:15 <augur> ehird, does it bother you that a popular british tv show about gay guys in manchester had a 30 year old involved with a 15 year old?
06:14:22 <augur> given that this is just one year older than you?
06:14:38 <ehird> not really. in a year those two could fuck.
06:14:48 <ehird> isn't the age of consent in the usa like 34 or something :-P
06:15:04 <augur> wait, so all i'd have to do is wait two years and then i can totally sex you?
06:15:15 <ehird> slightly less than two years, in fact.
06:15:26 <ehird> well, that assertion isn't true; it assumes i'd consent.
06:15:33 <augur> you know you would
06:15:38 <augur> there'd be nomads!
06:16:17 <augur> whichever form you find most erotic!
06:16:20 <augur> so i want to design an esolang
06:16:26 <ehird> as bits on a screen?
06:16:31 <augur> its strongly typed
06:16:38 <ehird> i'm not sure how you can have sex in-memory.
06:16:41 <augur> but where the types are enormously constrained
06:16:50 <augur> as are the possible modes of combining primitives
06:17:54 <augur> im curious now what sort of stuff you get off to
06:18:07 <augur> im pretty sure i have some idea of what i was getting off to when i was 14
06:18:11 <ehird> do you really have to have that thought in your head
06:18:23 <ehird> that's practically like raping me. even though you're not even changing my neurons or body in any way.
06:18:31 <ehird> clearly this proves that all consciousness is intertwined
06:18:34 <augur> well in a completely not sexual fashion, its an interesting question
06:18:37 <ehird> and the barriers between our minds are artificial
06:20:09 <ehird> i request one thing: do not combine the current and previous topics.
06:20:20 <augur> esolangs and you naked?
06:20:38 <augur> thats it isnt it?!
06:20:43 <augur> you jerk off to esolangs!
06:21:18 <ehird> i can state that that is categorically false.
06:21:28 <ehird> what does categorically even mean in that term, anyway
06:21:32 <ehird> how does it differ from "false" :P
06:21:50 <augur> so this idea that i have is that like
06:21:54 <coppro> I think it means "every statement of the same nature is false"
06:22:23 <augur> maybe there are only three or four primitives, and one or two primitive combinators
06:22:36 <augur> and it doesnt produce all possible functions like SKI does
06:22:53 <ehird> coppro: define same nature
06:22:59 <augur> or it might, but it might be extraordinarily constrained in how those those functions can look and behave
06:23:53 <augur> also, ive been introduced recently to Tarski's original ideas
06:23:59 <augur> very interesting form of logic he has
06:24:18 <augur> its kind of like lambda calculus, but not quite
06:24:30 <augur> the idea is something like this
06:24:58 <augur> you have a (finite?) set of atomic symbols a,b,c,...
06:25:01 <ehird> "Abstract: We show that the time evolution of the wave function of a quantum mechanical many particle system can be implemented very efficiently on a quantum computer. The computational cost of such a simulation is comparable to the cost of a conventional simulation of the corresponding classical."
06:25:03 <ehird> --http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9603026
06:25:13 <augur> an infinite number of variable symbols (x,x',x'',...)
06:25:30 <ehird> what comes after z
06:25:43 <Sgeo> Is it still possible to obtain Lisp machines?
06:25:47 <ehird> that's not an infinite set
06:25:51 <ehird> Sgeo: yes, for around $600
06:26:04 <ehird> you have to go over and pick it up though
06:26:18 <augur> and you have a finite number of capital letters R, P, ...
06:26:29 <augur> and on this you define
06:26:34 <ehird> Sgeo: price list - http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
06:26:48 <ehird> http://www.symbolics-dks.com/
06:26:58 <augur> a fixed number of valid "sentence forms" using those capital letters
06:27:11 <ehird> the http://loper-os.org/ guy acquired one recently and has posted a little about it
06:27:23 <augur> each capital letter having a single sentence associated with it
06:27:31 <augur> the sentence forms are such that like
06:27:46 <augur> Rxy is really a class of sentences, where R is followed by any two variables
06:27:55 <augur> so Rxx Rxx' Rx'x Rx'x' Rxx'' ...
06:28:01 <augur> are all valid sentences
06:28:30 <augur> you can also take valid sentences and replace any variable with an atomic symbol
06:28:42 <augur> and you get another valid sentence
06:29:00 <augur> so Rxx' with x -> a becomes Rax'
06:29:16 <augur> and then you have some combinations
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06:29:24 <augur> so any two valid sentences can be &ed
06:29:46 <augur> Rxy & Px is a valid sentence
06:30:21 <augur> and you can bind with quantifiers, so Rxy becomes ExRxy which has one less unbound variable
06:30:42 <augur> but in tarski's system, you ONLY have sentences
06:30:58 <augur> you dont have P or R or whatever as free objects you can do stuff with
06:31:03 <ehird> and they're all fucking boring sentences sdhfajkfhasjhfasf shut up
06:31:18 <augur> btu apparently its equivalent to LC
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06:34:28 <augur> but it has no functions...
06:35:33 <ehird> nor does your mother
06:36:06 <ehird> so i am downloading windows nt 4.0 workstation to play with it! my nerdiness has reached a plateau.
06:38:31 <ehird> so augur, does http://xkcd.com/114/ apply to you
06:38:50 <ehird> are you being insultd.
06:38:52 <augur> that i agree with saying "fuck computational linguistics"
06:38:55 <augur> or that im a computational linguist
06:39:04 <ehird> i guess the latter but it's so boring when you put it like that
06:39:31 <augur> im not reeeaaally a chomskyist except in that im most familiar with those frameworks
06:39:38 <augur> im definitely a generative linguist however
06:39:43 <augur> and i am not ryan north
06:40:00 <ehird> damned computational linguists on my lawn
06:40:14 <ehird> chomsky really needs to tie in his politics and linguistics
06:40:36 <augur> people ask him this
06:40:38 <augur> wat the connect is
06:40:44 <ehird> just publish a book titled On Politics & Linguistics and take every fucking thing he's ever said about either and tie them all in the most ridiculous way possible
06:41:21 <ehird> "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously, and therefore the cultivation of ideas is the blah blah blah"
06:43:31 * ehird quits torrent before seeding
06:43:35 <ehird> LEECHED IN YOUR FUCKING FACE
06:46:02 <augur> i'd leech in your face
06:46:10 <augur> oh, so my reason for bringing up tarskian logic is
06:46:23 <ehird> to leech in my face?
06:46:45 <augur> i'd be interesting to try to create a kind of language in which you had operations like that
06:46:59 <ehird> i'd be interesting to
06:47:22 <ehird> i thought you didn't respect english orthofucky
06:47:26 <ehird> why so apostrophical
06:47:32 <ehird> new favourite word
06:47:48 <ehird> it sounds like ... apocalyptic, castrophical, apostrophe, oh man
06:48:29 <augur> apostrophe catastrophy!
06:49:23 <ehird> apostrophy: a trophy you get from apostry
06:49:29 <ehird> *for doing apostry, rather
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07:28:32 <FireFly> It has no CSS support, right?
07:28:34 <ehird> It's retrolicious.
07:29:25 <pikhq> IE 4 was the first *browser* to have CSS support...
07:29:35 <ehird> it can't open google.com :P
07:29:58 <ehird> so at a time if you wanted css you had to add a bunch of crap to your system
07:30:02 <ehird> (IE "shell integration" shit etc)
07:30:49 * ehird ventures to the ever-useful http://www.litepc.com/ to pick up IEradicator
07:31:20 <ehird> not much point of a rock solid system that ships with IE on the desktop, is there
07:32:37 <ehird> but yeah, NT lacks sudo
07:32:50 <ehird> so i'm pretty tempted to remove my separate account and rename the administrator...
07:33:02 <ehird> but that's giving in!
07:33:30 <pikhq> Netscape 4 also had CSS, IIRC.
07:33:40 <ehird> yes, but was released after IE 4, no?
07:33:55 <ehird> also, netscape 4 can do too much; it was on the agenda of support for many sites as recently as 2004.
07:34:03 <ehird> too much because it FAILED HORRIBLY at doing them all.
07:34:11 <ehird> jwz is right, 4 is a crock of shit. 3 was nice
07:36:28 <ehird> ("Netscape 4 is dead. Thanks God." --http://web.archive.org/web/20060720060413/http://www.quirksmode.org/browsers/netscape4.html)
07:37:09 <ehird> iirc quirksmode used to crash on it, so before it did, it popped up an alert saying "This is Netscape's fault; sorry." or similar :D
07:38:58 <ehird> pikhq: ie 3 had css.
07:39:13 <pikhq> Oh, it was IE 3 that added it?
07:39:15 <ehird> "Microsoft's first attempt at an up-to date browser, Explorer 3 is quite impossible. Its implementation of both CSS and JavaScript are flawed and frankly unworkable. Basically, Explorer 3 knows enough of CSS to make your styled pages a complete disaster." --http://web.archive.org/web/20060716091823/www.quirksmode.org/browsers/explorer3.html
07:41:09 <ehird> http://www.litepc.com/download/IEradicator2001.zip ;; putting this link here for type-into-VM purposes
07:42:06 <ehird> Say, Chrome works on 2000, which is the (admittedly 4-years-in-the-making, and a *lot* changed in the computing world, and especially in NT 4 vs 2000, between 1996 and 2000, but still) successor to NT 4; I wonder if I could get it working on there?
07:43:28 * ehird renames My Computer to Computer. Relaxing.
07:43:53 <ehird> Wait shit, this won't have zip.
07:45:05 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/ogvebm
07:46:01 <ehird> Oops; access is denied.
07:46:09 <ehird> Log on as administr... pissed of this already.
07:46:19 <ehird> TIME TO MAKE ME THE ADMINISTRATOR WOOHOO
07:46:20 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
07:51:57 <ehird> sweet, it wrecked my system
07:52:10 <ehird> regsvr32, d'ya think that's registry server 32 eh
07:52:28 <ehird> because it isn't there y'see
07:53:29 <ehird> Well, whatever; rather odd that IEradicator would choose to remove it. Then again, NT isn't a supported version. But its successors are!
07:53:40 <ehird> Going to try the install CD's repairing.
07:56:17 <ehird> My life is one of eternal woe.
07:58:37 <ehird> Sweet, I held enter on OK and eventually it got the idea to delete system files for some reason
07:58:46 <ehird> Now it's telling me it can't find it again
07:59:35 <ehird> It's working now. How did that happen?
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08:02:09 <ehird> In the 95/98/2000 style look
08:02:16 <ehird> The minus and maximize/restore buttons are right next to each other
08:02:21 <ehird> But the X has spacing before it
08:04:44 <fizzie> Look, it's a virtual machine; why don't you just snapshot it before breaking it?
08:05:06 <ehird> fizzie: because I am
08:05:15 <ehird> TOO COOL FOR VM SNAPSHOTS
08:05:29 <ehird> it is so fucking reasonable.
08:08:52 <ehird> http://www.geocities.com/bearwindows/win2x.htm ;; complete and utter beautiful hysterical insanity
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08:28:47 <ehird> apparently when ms stop supporting a service pack they remove its download
08:28:56 <ehird> thus leaving people on an older, more buggy version with more problems
08:29:02 <ehird> i really don't see the logic there
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10:17:57 <ehird> "The point is, regardless of what I might expect, why would it be allowed to write a line of code that literally does absolutely nothing, can never do anything, and is basically just skipped, without at least giving you a warning?"
10:18:00 <ehird> the stupid! it burns!
10:18:10 * ehird idly wonders how a concept can be acidic
10:18:55 <Deewiant> A warning /would/ make sense IMO
10:19:22 <ehird> Yes, but read the line without context.
10:19:44 <ehird> By its logic, we would need to add a checker to the run-time system of every good language checking for the effects of a statement, and warn if nothing happens.
10:20:39 <Deewiant> No, it's quite sensible, just impossible
10:20:57 <ehird> You be the crazy too x.x
10:42:32 <ehird> "Problem 11: I want to see HICOLOR icons in system tray
10:42:32 <ehird> Solution: Patch explorer.exe:"
10:44:45 <ehird> >1MiB/s interwebs from google's servers
10:56:23 <Rugxulo> ehird, did you ever get Creatures (or whatever) to run on Win95?
10:56:38 <ehird> it could have been done trivially by installing ie 4.
10:56:43 <ehird> i didn't bother to extract the DLLs
10:57:00 <ehird> now, getting it to work on nt 4 would be a challenge...
10:57:09 <ehird> although mostly of the annoying variety
10:57:35 <ehird> aw, ff doesn't even support nt 4 any more :)
10:57:47 <ehird> nobody loves 2000's predecessor.
10:57:56 <Rugxulo> well, it's from 1996, right?
10:58:04 <Rugxulo> not sure when the last SP was
10:58:09 <ehird> sure! but it still had the basis of the NT kernel in 2000 in it
10:58:29 <Rugxulo> I think 2k is allegedly much better (never tried either, though, honestly)
10:58:31 <ehird> sure, it had win95's graphical environment on top of it... but still, supporting it is way easier than 9
10:58:35 <ehird> ADMITTEDLY, nobody uses it, but
10:58:53 <ehird> Rugxulo: NT 4 is fine; 2000 has that unremovable-without-major-surgery IE integration crap
10:59:09 <ehird> what would be the fun in using a legacy OS if I didn't have to hunt for software
10:59:42 <Rugxulo> it's hard to find stuff that ain't for the big three: Linux 2.6, Win XP+, Mac OS X 10.4+
10:59:51 <ehird> 2000+ is more common I think
11:00:06 <Rugxulo> it bugs me to think that programmers are too lazy to write for older OSes too ("it's too hard, wah wah wah")
11:00:08 <ehird> also 10.5+ is about as common as 10.4 in total
11:00:11 <ehird> and much more common for new stuff
11:00:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: it's not laziness, it's not wasting time
11:00:27 <Rugxulo> but Mac ain't as nice as Windows, no free service packs there
11:00:38 <ehird> you think the 10.x upgrades are service packs?
11:00:42 <ehird> no, the 10.x.y upgrades are
11:00:47 <ehird> 10.x = major release
11:01:05 <ehird> yes, it's confusing; it's meant to reflect the same basic UNIX base + Aqua + Cocoa
11:01:14 <Rugxulo> Vista "vanilla" and SP1 and SP2 are quite different
11:01:21 <Rugxulo> same with XP pre-SP2 and afterwards
11:01:22 <ehird> nowhere near at all
11:01:41 <ehird> the 10.x versions are nothing like service packs; they're major releases in every sense
11:02:04 <ehird> am i challenging that?
11:02:33 <ehird> as someone who knows what an SP is and has gone through them, and used a mac for 2-3 years, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to judge whether 10.x releases are service packs...
11:04:05 <Rugxulo> anyways, it's hard using a non-mainstream OS
11:04:20 <ehird> also, note that most Linux software supports modern BSDs too
11:04:34 <ehird> and it's perfectly possible to use a modern BSD happily, as long as you can deal with the ports abomination
11:05:12 <ehird> what. tweakui isn't available for nt?!
11:05:21 <ehird> i have to remove network neighborhood in the registry? ABOMINATORY!
11:05:50 <Rugxulo> I've only briefly played with a few *BSD .ISOs
11:06:01 <ehird> The BSD kernel is probably better than Linux.
11:06:12 <Rugxulo> they are anti-GPLv3, though
11:06:21 <ehird> No; they're anti-GPL. And thank god for that.
11:06:27 <Rugxulo> and latest GNU stuff is pro-GPLv3
11:06:39 <ehird> they still ship gpl 3 stuff
11:06:41 <ehird> they just don't like to
11:06:41 <Rugxulo> but they will use GPLv2, but they won't even touch v3
11:06:49 <ehird> wrong, wrong, wrong
11:06:54 <ehird> go install a modern bsd, install gcc
11:06:55 <Rugxulo> maybe in ports, but not GCC
11:06:57 <ehird> check what version it is
11:07:05 <ehird> Rugxulo: that's just the kernel compiler
11:07:06 <Rugxulo> last I checked, it was all versions <= 4.2.1 (GPLv2)
11:07:12 <ehird> for the userspace compiler, you get the latest gcc, I'm fairly certain
11:07:21 <Rugxulo> you can get it, but it's not default
11:07:33 <ehird> doesn't matter, base systems are useless
11:07:36 <ehird> you need to install something
11:07:40 <Rugxulo> because they hate GPLv3 (and some, e.g. Theo, claim GCC keeps getting slower and buggier)
11:07:44 <ehird> heck, on debian/ubuntu you need to install build-essential to get any sort of compiler
11:07:53 <Rugxulo> no, Ubuntu has a compiler already
11:08:08 <ais523> it has gcc, but only for compiling kernel modules
11:08:15 <ais523> it doesn't have things like system headers and libc-dev
11:08:22 <ehird> pretty worthless then
11:08:22 <ais523> unless you install build-essentical
11:08:32 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure it does have libc-dev
11:08:38 <ais523> I had to install it by hand
11:08:47 <ais523> (this is before I knew about build-essential)
11:08:48 * Rugxulo has compiled some C++ on several versions of Ubuntu
11:09:10 <Rugxulo> the C++ compiler is there (packed) but not installed
11:09:26 <ehird> so my current obstacle in my crazy, insane, fucked up Chrome-on-NT4 plan is that the Google Installer (yes, installer) requires 2000 sp3
11:10:08 <Rugxulo> like I've said before, for some oddball reason, people only support certain versions, and Win2k is really starting to be dropped (or already was, e.g. VirtualBox)
11:10:14 <Deewiant> So how likely do you think it is that Chrome itself requires less than that?
11:10:21 <ehird> Only support certain versions? How crazy.
11:10:26 <ehird> do you want people to support 3.11 or sth
11:10:54 <ehird> well, I'm glad every developer isn't you, or every application would be held back and buggy due to spending all their time supporting ancient OSs
11:11:05 <Rugxulo> they don't even try, though, which is frustrating
11:11:06 <ehird> I'm not surprised chrome doesn't support NT 4, I think that's perfectly reasonable, and I'm not bothered by it; I'm just tinkering
11:11:37 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, because if there isn't any demand for it, the only justification for supporting it is for fun
11:11:43 <Rugxulo> well, it's weird when things work one day and not the next, all due to developer whims
11:11:49 <ehird> corporations don't want to waste huge amounts of time on fun for obviosu reasons
11:12:04 <Rugxulo> corporations also don't want to waste money just to upgrade just for support in what already works
11:12:04 <ehird> and hobbyists, surprisingly, don't find porting every new feature to 3.11 fun
11:12:23 <ehird> oh, so you don't want to support 3.11?
11:12:36 <Rugxulo> but even Win98SE is considered bad now (although at the time it was plenty good enough ... did they forget what they knew then? I doubt it)
11:12:38 <ehird> what about people who use 3.11? where's the cutoff?
11:12:52 <Rugxulo> the cutoff is only where their skills end
11:12:59 <Rugxulo> support everything you're able, I say
11:13:21 <ehird> wow, yeah, you're right, it's not conceivable that technology could advance or - look, you're clearly driven to this insane timewasting idea of supporting every single OS in your raw ability by an irrational nostalgia for those old OSs, so I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.
11:13:55 <Rugxulo> they don't support anything besides latest stuff, and it's sickening
11:14:03 <ais523> anyway, what we really need is portable programs
11:14:15 <ehird> aaand with "sickening" you prove that indeed you're basing this on emotional, rather than rational grounds
11:14:27 <ais523> say something in portable C that only used the standard section of the library could probably compile to windows 3.1 without porting, but that's very restrictive
11:14:45 <ehird> is it in your ability to write a whole HTTP stack for 3.1?
11:14:53 <ehird> OS support must only end at your ability!!11112
11:15:16 <Rugxulo> but OpenWatcom does support it, so who knows ;-)
11:15:22 <ehird> i was talking to ais523
11:15:23 <ais523> do you need a whole stack? or just bits of it?
11:15:39 <ais523> I can imagine porting wget to 3.1, but you'd need a TCP library
11:15:40 <ehird> All of it! We're writing a combined web server/browser/toaster!
11:15:48 <ehird> In fact, I do believe we need to implement every library possible.
11:15:52 <ehird> Quick! Quick! Busywork!
11:16:18 <ehird> Hrm... what's this I keep hearing about 500 critical unsolved bugs for modern operating systems... eh, who uses those things. So about our 3.1 library roadmap...
11:16:31 <Rugxulo> even Win2k came out with like a billion bugs ...
11:16:34 <ais523> also, stupid login page: a) it redirects you off the resulting page on an unsuccessful login, rather than just taking you to it; b) the strong password requirements mean that, for the first time in ever, I've forgotten my password because I memorised the old one rather than the one corrected to comply with it
11:17:23 * ehird wonders what browsers other than opera, seamonkey, k-meleon would wok
11:17:42 <Rugxulo> maybe some compile of dillo?
11:18:09 <ehird> This is the first time in history I've been tempted to say "Never mind, I'll just use IE 6" :-P
11:19:13 * ais523 tries to remember when NT 4 came out, timewise
11:19:19 <Rugxulo> that would probably open your possibilities a lot
11:19:20 <ais523> Rugxulo: you're mad, Cygwin doesn't even run on Wine
11:19:35 <ais523> you'd be better off trying to run Wine on it
11:19:39 <ais523> and running modern browsers that way
11:19:39 <Rugxulo> eh? Cygwin still runs on Win9x (until 1.7 is out of beta)
11:20:03 <ehird> Cygwin runs on 3.11 iirc
11:20:16 <Rugxulo> there's a Swspacket (sp?) driver that emulates the DOS packet API, maybe letting you use elinks, lynx, Arachne, etc.
11:20:23 <ehird> NT 4 is 1996; NT 3 kernel + 95 GUI, pretty much
11:20:44 <Rugxulo> I'd bet OffByOne works, but it's like HTML 3.2 only
11:20:49 <Rugxulo> Arachne is at least mostly 4.0
11:20:54 <ehird> Seems quite sturdy so far; the Control Panel is less usable than 95, though, due to being all corporatey and stuff.
11:21:08 <ehird> And the users kind of get in the way since you don't have sudo; I'm just running as admin.
11:21:09 <Rugxulo> compared to 95, it should be rock solid
11:21:11 <ehird> But it doesn't crash, so.
11:21:20 <ehird> It feels sturdier.
11:21:40 <ehird> Also, it has a proper task manager like in 2000/XP/Vista/7! Yay!
11:21:54 * ehird wonders why the context menus have slightly different padding/spacing in NT
11:21:58 <ehird> seems an odd thing to change for the new release...
11:22:04 <Rugxulo> it's considered much better, which is why people didn't whine too too hard about worse compatibility
11:22:11 <ehird> "oh, it looks better this way... let's tweak this from our mostly-identical GUI subsystem"
11:22:15 <ais523> aargh! the .login here is a tcsh script
11:22:24 <ehird> Rugxulo: Unfortunately, the last DirectX it supports is 3.
11:22:36 <ehird> So games are pretty much impossible with NT 4, which is a shame.
11:22:46 <ehird> I know, but it sucks to have to use an unstable OS for games. :P
11:22:50 <ehird> (If you want to be all retro.)
11:22:51 <Rugxulo> another arbitrary decision from MS ...
11:23:11 <Rugxulo> yes, instability sucks, but rock solid stability that can't run anything (*Vista*) ain't too much better
11:23:22 <ehird> no, presumably the NT 4 kernel was missing functionality and design constraints that made it too hard to support the additional DirectX code without much more effort, ETC
11:23:34 <Rugxulo> yeah, just like XP couldn't get DX10, yeah right
11:23:48 <ehird> Rugxulo -- knowing more about DirectX than anyone who's ever seen the DirectX source since 2009
11:23:56 <Rugxulo> and 2k3 doesn't even get any more service packs despite *known* bugs
11:23:57 <ehird> Rugxulo: also, did you just say Vista can't run anything...?
11:24:09 <Rugxulo> Vista has bugs where even XP ran fine
11:24:17 <ehird> "rock solid stability that can't run anything (*Vista*)"
11:24:23 <ais523> wow, Yahoo's POP3 has become unstable recently, it hangs half the time
11:24:29 <ais523> it never used to do that...
11:24:29 <Deewiant> Master of Orion II needs DirectX >= 3, it might run
11:24:30 <ehird> why are you using POP.
11:24:35 <ais523> ehird: because Yahoo doesn't support IMAP
11:24:39 <ehird> Deewiant: That's a whole one game
11:24:40 <Rugxulo> MS made a deal with Yahoo!, probably switching all their FreeBSD -> MS crud
11:24:44 <ehird> ais523: why are you using yahoo
11:24:50 <ehird> Rugxulo: seriously?
11:24:52 <ais523> ehird: I happened to have a spare yahoo account lying around
11:24:54 <ehird> the deal was with the search engines
11:25:00 <ehird> and a separate one to advertise IE 8
11:25:01 <ais523> and I probably trust them the most out of the large webmail providers
11:25:09 <ehird> what is it with geeks and insane tech conspiracise
11:25:18 <Deewiant> Most of the games I consider excellent don't depend on any version of DirectX.
11:25:23 <ehird> are we too insecure to admit one of us might have fucked up somewhere in system administration :P
11:25:30 * Rugxulo wonders if DOSBox works on NT 4
11:25:40 <ehird> Rugxulo: Link me up and I'll see.
11:25:44 <ehird> hey, 3.11 runs in dosbox
11:25:59 <ehird> almost certainly slower than a virtualiser ofc
11:26:17 <Rugxulo> Win95 didn't need to be bundled with DOS, but MS did it that way to compete better
11:26:34 <ais523> whereas 3.1 requires some OS to run on
11:26:44 <ehird> 95 starts up from dos
11:26:58 <Rugxulo> so does Win9x, there's allegedly no reason it couldn't run on DR-DOS, but that never happened due to bundling
11:27:00 <ais523> (apparently 3.1 worked with Dr. DOS too, but they added a scary error message to make people think it was inferiot)
11:27:11 * ehird wonders why NT installs to C:\WINNT; to distinguish it from 9x or something?
11:27:18 <Rugxulo> the error message was only in 3.1 beta, it was removed for final release
11:27:24 <ehird> incidentally, the 95-era explorer normalises capitalisation...
11:27:25 <Rugxulo> DR-DOS ran 3.1 faster than MS-DOS
11:27:34 <Rugxulo> DR-DOS kinda kicks MS-DOS' butt
11:27:36 <ehird> WINNT becomes Winnt, FOO baR baz becomes Foo Bar Baz...
11:27:55 <ais523> ehird: because many old programs saved in allcaps
11:28:02 <ais523> it didn't matter with 8.3
11:28:08 <ehird> I don't find it surprising that Windows would only work on MS-DOS on purpose
11:28:14 <ais523> but it /did/ matter when going to LFN, which was case-preserving although case-insensitive
11:28:14 <ehird> It seems like a reasonable thing to do
11:28:23 <ehird> annoying, sure, but understandable and not evil...
11:28:25 <Rugxulo> well, they had to pay a bunch of money after-the-fact to Caldera (1998?) because of that
11:28:46 * ehird wishes MS hadn't called it Recycle Bin just to avoid getting sued by Apple/Atari/whatever
11:28:49 <ehird> it doesn't recycle anything, dammit!
11:28:50 <Rugxulo> it's not evil, but it definitely wasn't a technical requirement
11:28:56 <Rugxulo> they just didn't want DOS clones
11:28:57 <ehird> it's a trash can/rubbish bin that you empty later!
11:29:02 <ais523> you wouldn't want them all falling into the bitbucket
11:29:09 <ehird> i'm tempted to rename it Bit Bucket
11:29:31 <ehird> yes, but not for that
11:29:35 <Rugxulo> but that was way back when, and it didn't last long
11:29:35 <ehird> for copying the GUI in the first place
11:29:48 <Rugxulo> I think they lost, though, because you can copyright UI
11:29:50 <ehird> and then Xerox came along and sued Apple, going "um, actually, we did that"
11:29:57 <ehird> and then Apple lost both cases
11:30:13 <Rugxulo> e.g. non-overlapping Windows in Win 1.0 (ugh)
11:30:39 <ehird> hey, the kids do that on purpose today
11:30:46 <Rugxulo> BTW, is it TweakUI that gives you multiple workspaces or some other tool? (I forget)
11:30:46 <ehird> call 'em tiling window managers! :P
11:30:52 <ehird> TweakUI doesn't do that
11:31:07 <ais523> aargh stupid filename-sensitivity of Java
11:31:09 <ehird> TweakUI is just a MS-made tool that gives you access to a bunch of registry keys about the UI
11:31:21 <ehird> ais523: I hate that so much
11:31:26 <Rugxulo> I don't use my XP machine barely at all anymore, so I don't remember TweakUI
11:31:37 <Rugxulo> case sensitivity in filenames is pretty useless
11:31:39 <ehird> it's available for 9x too
11:31:44 <ehird> Rugxulo: not case sensitivity
11:31:52 <ehird> which is good, because you can't define case sensitivity
11:31:53 <ais523> OTOH, it seems to be breaking even with the right filename
11:32:02 <ehird> unless you want to be an anglophone, which is pretty bigoted
11:32:09 <ehird> also, it makes the code simpler
11:32:14 <ehird> being just comparisons of opaque byte strings
11:32:39 <ehird> it isn't assigning semantics to the names
11:32:50 <Rugxulo> I'm saying who has Makefile makefile and MAKEFILE all in one dir anyways??
11:33:37 <ehird> that's not the point, at all
11:33:47 <ehird> in practice it rarely matters
11:33:53 <ehird> it causes annoying things like:
11:34:00 <ehird> even though the case is exposed
11:34:07 <ehird> you have to go via an intermediate file
11:34:13 <ehird> and, furthermore, it's impossible to do for all languages
11:34:16 <ehird> due to ill-defined notions of case
11:34:28 <Deewiant> rename fOO foo works but is a no-op, IIRC
11:34:28 <ehird> and, it complicates the code with stupid stuff like unicode, which is bad in a low-level fs
11:34:40 <ehird> it assigns semantics to file names: which isn't right.
11:34:54 <ehird> files shouldn't answer to the opaque byte strings that aren't theirs.
11:35:14 <ehird> that's just because windows does (and it's stupid)
11:35:15 <Deewiant> I always forget which endianness
11:35:43 <ehird> so should I rename the Recycle Bin to Bit Bucket, Trash, Trash Can, Rubbish, or Rubbish Bin :P
11:36:15 <ehird> but neither of those make any sense!
11:36:55 <ehird> maybe I'll call it, uh, how do you spell it
11:37:49 <ais523> we need TC garbage collection!
11:38:30 <ehird> your unfunniness is only limited by infinity
11:38:53 <ehird> maybe I'll call it Micro$HAFT Window$ SH!tsorce
11:38:59 <Rugxulo> well, I was gonna say Perl6, but I'm not serious about that one ;-)
11:40:26 <ehird> isn't that where they go *post* deletion
11:40:46 <ehird> also, does it seem strange to anyone else that windows prompts before moving something to the recycle bin?
11:40:53 <ehird> i mean... the whole point is that you can get it back later...
11:40:55 <ehird> why do we need warning
11:41:00 <ais523> not to me, based on what Windows thinks helps usability
11:41:15 <ais523> oh, btw, the Vista machines here have what is to me a massive usability bug
11:41:18 <Rugxulo> no worse than it asking every five minutes, "Wanna reboot now?" after silly updates
11:41:21 <ehird> if we bombard the user with more pointless dialogs, they'll surely pay more attention to them
11:41:29 <ais523> the log-out menu item says "Log out..."
11:41:34 <ais523> but doesn't pop up a dialog box, just logs out
11:41:37 <ehird> Rugxulo: that's gone nowadays actually
11:41:45 <ais523> those three dots have me waiting for ages for the dialog to come up
11:41:54 <ehird> I don't really pay attention to those things, but I hate such inconsistencies
11:42:06 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes it is; legacy installers lie about it, but you can switch graphics driver in 7 without rebooting, for example
11:42:12 <ehird> or without restarting the graphics subsystem
11:42:16 <ehird> or any graphical apps
11:42:19 <ehird> which is more than Xorg can do
11:42:31 <Rugxulo> and BTW, it offered me IE 8 in Windows update but not SP2, heh
11:42:37 <ais523> ehird: I'm trained to wait for a dialog box after clicking on a fake-ellipsis
11:42:43 <ais523> (maybe it's even a real one nowadays, for all I know)
11:42:55 <ehird> it isn't in GNOME, and that upsets me greatly
11:43:07 <ehird> however, GNOME uses it perfectly consistently throughout! YAY!!!
11:43:26 <ehird> well, apart from odd things like Accessories -> Search For Files...; technically true, but all apps pop up a window
11:43:42 <ehird> Rugxulo: ellipsis after a menu item = There will be a prompt asking for more information or a confirmation before this action is completed
11:43:49 <ehird> No ellipsis = as soon as you click, the action will happen
11:43:59 <ehird> For instance, Shut Down... [click] Are you sure you want to shut down?
11:44:08 <ehird> Force Major System Halt OMFG [click] [bzzt]
11:44:24 <ehird> Zoom In but Preferences..., etc
11:44:34 <ehird> well, not Preferences...
11:44:37 <Rugxulo> Ctrl Alt SysReq R E I S U B ... much easier ;-)
11:44:44 <ehird> since it's expected for menu items to do that
11:44:51 <ehird> too complicated to articulate :D
11:45:15 <Rugxulo> BTW, I unwrapped a copy of Falcon 3.0 yesterday, have yet to play it though
11:45:27 <Rugxulo> had it for a few years, just lazy I guess
11:45:56 <ais523> also, you have to hold down alt through the whole thing, but press and release sysrq before each letter
11:46:10 <ais523> I think it's a form of security through obscurity; the actual action is rather hard to describe
11:46:25 <Rugxulo> I just hold Ctrl-Alt-SysReq and while doing that press (in order) R E I S U B
11:46:30 <ais523> (it gets even more fun on a laptop keyboard, where sysrq is fun-prtsc)
11:46:44 <ais523> Rugxulo: hmm... clearly that works on a desktop keyboard but not a laptop one
11:47:07 <ais523> I tried many combinations, but holding SysRq fails, as does releasing alt
11:47:13 <ehird> I wish annoyances.org had an NT section
11:47:31 <Rugxulo> I wish it had an ehird section ;-)
11:47:56 <ehird> have i ever mentioned you're extremely witty. because if so I was clearly incorrect based on new evidence :P
11:48:00 <ehird> SCIENTIFIC INSULTS
11:48:22 <ehird> What's that IE? Crashed? WELL I'LL JUST TERMINATE YOUR PROCESS
11:48:36 <ehird> Guess Opera is the best bet for now...
11:48:48 <Rugxulo> so no Firefox runs on NT or just really really old ones?
11:49:07 <ehird> well, probably like 1.5 does, I imagine they dropped support of it with 95
11:49:14 <ehird> but if I wanted to run an outdated browser I'd stick with IE 6
11:49:21 <Rugxulo> yeah, I was thinking 1.5 probably worked
11:49:26 <ehird> plus, what's the challenge in using old software?
11:49:33 <ehird> i could get everything with no trouble like that!
11:49:46 <Rugxulo> IE 6 ain't great, esp. with most people intentionally dropping support (although I think Gmail works, maybe YouTube)
11:50:02 <ehird> "Opera cannot be upgraded while it is running." ...good to know, I'm not running Opera nor do I have it installed?
11:50:27 <ehird> IE 6 is horrible and I could never use it in good conscience, not because of dropping support mainly (although that too) but because in a previous life I did web stuff
11:50:40 <ehird> and it rivals netscape 4 in "oh god, please just let me die now"-ness
11:51:10 <Rugxulo> at least OffByOne supports tabs
11:51:12 * ehird elects to use the classic Opera installer
11:51:21 <ehird> they offer that even on new versions for some reason...
11:51:35 <ehird> yes, it also doesn't support css or javascript last i checked
11:51:39 <ehird> also, not even html 4
11:51:48 <Rugxulo> I know, but hey, better than nothing ;-)
11:53:41 <ais523> how do you set an environment variable in tcsh?
11:54:13 <ehird> exec bash; export FOO=BAR
11:54:27 <ais523> Rugxulo: thanks, that worked
11:54:48 <ehird> well, that ; wouldn't work, still
11:55:05 <ehird> oh dear, windows installs NT hofixes in add/remove
11:55:09 <ais523> who'd have thought that . in $CLASSPATH doesn't add the current directory, but putting the name of the current directory there does
11:55:13 <ehird> thus adding like 30 useless things ith jsut a number
11:55:17 <ehird> not even telling me what it fixes
11:55:21 <ais523> ehird: you didn't know that already?
11:55:36 <ehird> I know TweakUI can remove entries from Add/Remove; maybe I'll do that to declutter it, manually
11:55:47 <ehird> IE instlaled windows media player too
11:55:52 <ehird> good thing I'm eradicating it
11:56:26 <ehird> "Restore the previous Windows configuration." // fuck off, you're not a real OS component
11:56:33 <ehird> what you mean to say is "Uninstall me"
11:56:59 <ais523> "heading = 5399.999999999987 degrees"
11:57:17 <ais523> this applet clearly doesn't know about a) modular arithmetic, b) floating-point error
11:57:27 <ehird> incidentally, I'm considering basing my sandboxed distro on BSd.
11:58:08 <ais523> also, . is in the path here by default
11:58:18 <ais523> which seems slightly weird for a Linux distro aimed at businesses
11:58:24 <ehird> FreeBSD is the most active and has jails (not sure if the others do), NetBSD Runs On Everything(TM) and, basically, I like their style (although have never used their OS), and OpenBSD is ... dubiously ... secure
11:58:39 <ehird> I've read some things that make me doubt OpenBSD is so much hot stuff as opposed to, well, hot air
11:58:44 <ehird> also, I dislike Theo
11:59:00 <Rugxulo> NetBSD is pretty good although I think FreeBSD has more polish / fans / developers, OpenBSD mostly works but seems to lag behind and have bugs / regressions
11:59:08 <ehird> Linux has in its favour compatibility, popularity and Linus
11:59:33 <ehird> yes; I AM making the billion-and-oneth
11:59:44 <ehird> ...but not a nondescript one!
12:00:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: everyone else has a capability-based sandboxing system applied to the whole system as the security solution, plus package isolation and easy user-specific package installation?
12:00:32 <ehird> Wow, I'm totally out of date with the whole distro scene!
12:01:15 * ehird wonders if IEradicator will break NT again until he repairs it from the NT CD and hits OK a lot on the errors
12:01:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: define they?
12:01:22 <ehird> what's all weird, the things I stated or the distros
12:01:48 <ehird> there's maybe 10 distros that don't suck so much as to be not even worth considering using.
12:02:01 <ehird> and maybe 4-5 I'd actually consider using
12:02:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: lemme see... Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, Arch, uh...
12:02:24 <ehird> I'm sure there are five more.
12:02:49 <ehird> no, no and a thousand billion million times no to SuSE
12:02:53 <ehird> a strong meh to Puppy
12:03:05 <ehird> I'm going to pretend you never said that, ais523 :P
12:03:05 <ais523> well, LFS isn't technically a distro
12:03:14 <ehird> Rugxulo: mehhhhhhhh
12:03:16 <ehird> yet another distro
12:03:35 <ehird> i dislike source based distros and I dislike gentoo's culture
12:03:43 <ehird> also, gentoo is out of date an awful lot.
12:03:58 <ehird> Mepis is yet another damn distro!
12:04:05 <ais523> wait, why does rm prompt?
12:04:07 <ehird> the ones I mentioned are exceptional, everything else is mostly the same
12:04:12 <ehird> with a few things that are different, but not for the better
12:04:16 <ehird> ais523: alias rm=rm -i
12:04:19 <ehird> what system is this?
12:04:30 <ais523> with some really weird config, AFAICT
12:04:31 <ehird> I don't recall CentOS being so braindead by default
12:04:34 <ais523> at least, I haven't seen anything similar
12:04:43 <ais523> I doubt it's default, this looks like it's been deliberately customised to be braindead
12:04:48 <ehird> ais523: do you think you're allowed to install software in ~?
12:04:58 <ehird> I suggest running user mode linux with something saner inside :P
12:05:09 <ehird> and killing X and starting one in the UML every time you start it up
12:05:11 <ais523> I'll just use my laptop
12:05:21 <ais523> also, startx is in the .login script
12:05:24 <ais523> rather than started automatically
12:05:33 <ais523> but I can't run the computer without X
12:05:38 <ais523> the screen doesn't work in text mode
12:05:47 <ais523> some weird incompatibility between the graphics card and screen
12:06:08 <ais523> it used not to work in graphics mode either, until they got a crappier cable so that the graphics card had to downgrade its output
12:06:17 <ais523> Rugxulo: no, it sends at the wrong frequency
12:06:25 * Rugxulo wonders about VESA text modes
12:06:32 <ehird> your university's IT department is seriously incompetent, ais523
12:06:43 <ehird> also their door department.
12:06:48 <ais523> well, they found a solution that worked, I suppose
12:06:51 <ais523> also, different department now
12:07:18 <ais523> the doors /here/ have so far been sane
12:07:19 <ais523> "rm: aliased to rm -i"
12:07:20 <ais523> wait, is which /supposed/ to do that?
12:07:23 <ais523> I thought it was type that did that
12:07:56 <ehird> `quotes' and space-punctuation
12:08:01 <ehird> that sentence causes deep-seated rage in me
12:08:16 <ais523> mtype appears to be a port of type from MS-DOS
12:08:24 <ais523> and type was the equivalent to cat
12:08:34 <ehird> now who on earth would want that...
12:08:43 <ais523> someone trying to parse MS-DOS line endings, presumably
12:08:54 <ehird> have they ever heard of tofrodos or dos2unix or...
12:08:58 <ais523> who didn't realise that less has done that for years
12:09:03 <ehird> I bet someone did it for the CLI interface
12:09:17 <ehird> oops, RAS syndrome
12:09:40 <ais523> wow, the man page for mtype has more information on telling you how to see the original texinfo documentation than it does about the actual program
12:09:57 <ais523> the information isn't the usual "run 'info mtype'"
12:09:58 <ehird> Gnit's the fguture.
12:10:05 <ais523> instead, it tells you how to compile the documentation from source
12:10:11 <ehird> I truly have infopages...
12:10:15 <ais523> this system is getting more bizzare by the second
12:10:20 <ehird> really really verbose, hard to navigate, sprawling...
12:10:40 <ehird> I probably have them too
12:10:46 <ehird> I imagine they're installed on this system.
12:11:04 <ais523> -----Info: (*manpages*)mtype
12:11:19 <ais523> I actually guessed that would happen, but wasn't sure
12:11:47 <Rugxulo> did you try "mtype /?" perhaps?
12:12:08 <ehird> A terrible idea: A program like biff(1), but instead of inform you when you have new mail, it informs you when jesus loves you.
12:12:21 <ais523> running it without arguments shows that the arguments are behind - now not /
12:12:24 <ais523> so it isn't a straight port
12:12:38 <ehird> they could put it in ubuntu christian edition.
12:12:49 <ais523> Rugxulo: doesn't work because of tcsh
12:12:56 <ais523> so, the command doesn't run at all
12:13:11 <ais523> even more fun, tcsh makes it look like the error was coming from the program you're trying to run
12:13:26 <ais523> both ? and h are invalid optoins
12:13:30 <ais523> hey, that's what manpages are for!
12:13:48 <ais523> wow, I was laughing so much that tears are actually coming out of my eyes
12:14:12 * ehird hopes 7zip will work
12:14:15 <ais523> the "You mean `mcopy' ? " thing seems to come up for all DOS commands
12:14:23 <Rugxulo> 7zip cmdline or file manager?
12:14:37 <ehird> File manager; just like WinZip, I can take a brief look and hit extract. Except it won't nag me.
12:14:40 <ais523> it seems to be a misguided attempt at letting DOS people change to Linux more easily
12:14:52 <Rugxulo> hmmm, mcopy and mtype etc. must be from mtools
12:15:02 <ehird> I hope 7-Zip supports NT.
12:15:11 <ehird> NT 4 is wonderfully snappy...
12:15:23 <Rugxulo> I know Igor tried to support Win9x in the cmdline version, at least
12:15:33 <ehird> I'd have thought it be more bloated; I've read articles from the day where people noted it was slower but rock solid.
12:15:56 <Rugxulo> 1996 was P1 era (200 Mhz max), before faster machines
12:16:05 <ais523> talking about how to mount DOS floppy disks
12:16:06 <ehird> it was circa 1998 the article i read iirc
12:16:14 <ais523> which could be kind-of hard, given that the local computer has no floppy drive
12:16:17 <ehird> e.g. in a fun article where someone described making their computer, the Damage Box, containing some Celeron
12:16:21 <ais523> and I doubt I could access one on the server, if there is one there
12:16:21 <ehird> that was actually faster than P3s
12:16:35 <ehird> it talked about P3s
12:16:46 <Rugxulo> talking about isn't the same as having one
12:16:50 <ehird> also, Voodoo cards and Glide
12:17:03 <ehird> well, it may have been 1999
12:17:08 <ehird> Rugxulo: referencing benchmarks.
12:17:16 <ehird> i.e., "in practice the Celeron beats the blah blah blah"
12:17:21 <Rugxulo> P3 ranged from various speeds
12:17:37 <ehird> it mentioned models
12:17:39 <Rugxulo> I'd bet the high end ones beat the Celeron (well, they'd have to, all Celerons are half the cache, right?)
12:17:52 <ehird> the celeron overclocked to 400MHz or something
12:17:55 <ehird> which was the top PIII
12:17:59 <ehird> and outperformed it in practice almost all the time
12:18:09 <Rugxulo> but P3 eventually scaled to over 1 Ghz
12:18:25 <ehird> it was a comparison at the time, which was novel because celeron is meant to be budget
12:18:32 <ehird> re pentium pro there was another article (these were from old-school Ars Technica) praising the Pentium Pro in rather overblown terms
12:18:42 <ehird> (in like 2000, when it was rather outdated; it was more of a tribute)
12:18:50 <Rugxulo> PPro was good at 32-bit, bad at 16-bit
12:19:06 <ehird> Did You Know: ...that NT 4 was available for PowerPC for a time?
12:19:17 <ehird> Not sure, Rugxulo.
12:19:19 <ais523> NT the kernel was pretty portable
12:19:26 <ehird> did it run the gui?
12:19:29 <ais523> but Windows NT the OS wasn't
12:19:30 <Rugxulo> NT before 4 ran on like three or four arches
12:19:36 <ais523> and not sure; quite possibly it was just telnet
12:19:42 <ehird> mips, for instance
12:19:43 <ais523> which is all NT without Windows can do
12:20:04 <ehird> if you could actually run Windows NT 4 on a Mac at some point I guess it'd be bigger news then
12:20:09 <ehird> a fun thought, though
12:20:14 <ehird> considering the total program incompatibility
12:20:20 <ehird> so... er... why are you using windows???
12:20:21 <ais523> I love the way that NT is multiuser, but only one user can use the GUI at the time
12:20:23 <ais523> everyone else has to telnet
12:20:32 <ehird> makes sense, the gui is one of the three kernel components
12:20:41 <Rugxulo> at one time Apple ported Mac to run on DR-DOS (x86), but they abandoned the project later
12:20:45 <ehird> (Win32, GUI and I forget the third one)
12:20:50 <ehird> Win32, GDI and GUI
12:20:57 <ehird> are the three separate components making up the kernel
12:21:19 <Rugxulo> ehird, there were supposedly DOS 486 emulators for non-x86 NT versions
12:21:19 <ehird> well, 7zip installed hitchlessly
12:22:33 <ehird> the Windows NT shared/not shared program thing in the start menu is confusing
12:22:40 <ehird> IE is local to me but 7zip isn't
12:22:50 <ehird> and explorer is local too.
12:23:38 <Rugxulo> when did MS add .ZIP support to Explorer? 2k?
12:24:06 <ehird> and I really like it; it's nice and simple
12:24:13 <ehird> I wish there was an extension to do the same for many formats
12:24:34 <Rugxulo> you could try IZarc.org, but I'm not sure it'd work
12:24:59 <ehird> I don't mean for NT, I mean in general
12:25:01 <Rugxulo> 7-Zip does support unraring
12:25:08 <Deewiant> I don't like it, I have folders with hundreds of .zips in them and that makes the tree view on the left useless
12:25:11 <ehird> Windows ZIP support treats them as folders
12:25:25 <ehird> I know you can get programs to decompress archives.........
12:26:20 <Rugxulo> I mean for certain archive types
12:26:50 <Rugxulo> and yes, all Windows apps have to use at least KERNEL.DLL etc.
12:27:00 <ehird> "it uses .DLLs" is a completely meaningless statement
12:27:02 <Rugxulo> well, non-dual Win programs ;-)
12:27:19 <ehird> btw, what is the point of rundll32?
12:27:28 <ehird> I don't see what it does, other than execute a function in a dll like a program
12:27:33 <ehird> so uh, why not just have a program? for linkability?
12:27:41 <ehird> why not just make a stub program that links with the dll and calls it?
12:27:48 <ehird> just doesn't seem like an insanely common thing to want to me
12:28:06 <Deewiant> They were originally intended only for internal Microsoft use
12:28:26 <ehird> mwahahaha, DIE IE! DIE!
12:28:41 <ehird> Dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
12:28:53 <ehird> i probably enjoy this too much.
12:29:17 <ehird> but totally eradicate ie on your newfangled vista thingummies, eh, eh
12:30:37 <ehird> GREYING OUT THE UNINSTALL OPTION NOW ARE WE, OLDER IE?
12:30:43 <ehird> well i'll just have to sic ieradicator on you.
12:30:48 <Rugxulo> newfangled? not as much ... Win 7 is coming this month, and Vista is 2 1/2 already
12:31:05 <ehird> Rugxulo: i'm joking
12:31:25 <Gregor> For M$, 2.5 years is a friggin' lighting-fast release cycle.
12:31:29 <ehird> but hey, vista was so long in the wait... 5 years...
12:31:36 <ehird> so vista is still pretty newfangled!
12:31:51 <ehird> longhorn builds leaked in 2004!
12:32:15 <ehird> they should probably have released longhorn in like 2005, then vista in 2008
12:32:18 <Deewiant> Before that it was less than 2 years between releases, usually
12:32:25 <ehird> the whole-huge-release-at-once reaaaaaaaaaally messed up
12:32:47 <ehird> what do you mean by hell always
12:32:53 <ehird> your sentences are unmakingsense to me!
12:33:28 <Deewiant> I said usually and then I decided that it was probably in fact always
12:33:39 <ehird> IE IS TOTALLY GONE
12:33:45 <ehird> Deewiant: what do you mean hell usually
12:33:55 <ehird> you mean upgrading so frequently?
12:34:49 <Deewiant> 2009-10-05 14:32:18 ( Deewiant) Before [Vista,] [Microsoft] [took] less than 2 years between releases [of Windows], usually
12:34:50 <ehird> whee, it wants the msimg32.dll from windows me
12:35:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Right, what's that got to do with hell
12:35:29 <Deewiant> ehird: Do you not see a comma after it?
12:35:54 <ehird> Maybe I'm dumb, but I have no idea what you're talking about at all.
12:36:28 <ehird> I thought it was, since it was, like, in a parne, like an, um, okay I fail.
12:39:44 * Rugxulo doesn't understand why they released Win98, Win98SE, WinME, and Win2k all in such a short span of time
12:40:01 <ehird> Because Win98 didn't suck enough, so they added more IE to it hastily.
12:40:22 <ehird> Then, they decided that even that was too stable, so they messed with the kernel and made drivers unstable as fuck; this important change was named Me.
12:40:26 <ais523> ehird: which is better, 98 or 98SE?
12:40:49 <ehird> Eventually someone came in who wasn't high on pot or drunk and took over, told them to make something that didn't suck based on NT 4 and 98SE, and mostly succeeded with 2k.
12:40:51 <ehird> Apart from that whole IE Explorer thing.
12:40:59 <ais523> anyway, the change in 98 was probably so they could claim IE was a fundamental part of Windows
12:41:02 <ehird> ais523: probably 98, because it had less IE
12:41:05 <ehird> but 98SE is probably more stable
12:41:06 <Rugxulo> XP is the merger of 2k and ME
12:41:09 <ehird> as both 98s were really unstable
12:41:25 <Rugxulo> 2k was never offered to home users
12:41:27 <ehird> Me was totally abandoned and left to die, because it really sucked and 2000 didn't
12:41:32 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, but XP is purely based on 2k
12:41:59 <Rugxulo> but e.g. SB emulation in NTVDM was added for XP
12:42:00 <ehird> you forgot "fisher price's art division" :)
12:43:00 <Rugxulo> ME was left to die because nobody liked it, it was somewhat worse than 98SE (according to some people), even though it technically came out after 2000
12:43:11 <ehird> according to some people? Me sucked, man
12:43:34 <Rugxulo> well, it had some good qualities (which I forget offhand, System Restore and some other features)
12:43:37 <ehird> It was identical to 98SE but crashed much, much, much, much, MUCH more buggy, and removed the ability to shut down to DOS
12:43:48 <ehird> System Restore is useless because it restores *everything*
12:43:49 <Rugxulo> 3rd-party hack added back the DOS bit
12:43:51 <ehird> and a virus could just wipe them
12:43:58 <Rugxulo> they did that to speed up bootup, I think
12:44:01 <ehird> Rugxulo: doesn't matter; it's still a thing that Me made worse
12:44:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, the moon buggy.
12:44:34 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying ME wasn't worse overall, just saying it's hard to say conclusively
12:45:05 <ehird> Pretty sure I've never come across anyone apart from my father saying Me is great. (Also, it's not CAPITALISED, just as MAC isn't.)
12:45:32 <ehird> It's Windows Me: Millennium Edition
12:45:49 <ehird> you need a backwards \
12:45:59 <Rugxulo> but it wouldn't be funny then ;-)
12:46:25 <Rugxulo> no, Wii is a stupid name, Me is at least semi-reasonable
12:46:42 <ehird> Nothing wrong with the Wii name, apart from some juvenile antics
12:47:00 <Rugxulo> nothing wrong?? it's not a word, it makes no sense, etc.
12:47:05 <ehird> You mean like all names?
12:47:10 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: My point was the pronunciation
12:47:26 <ehird> It's short, it's "cute", and it's slightly odd (the double i mixes weirdly with the w). It represents the Wii perfectly well.
12:47:46 <ehird> Nobody listens to the literal meaning of a name except to make terrible puns about not needing gates in a world without windows, so who cares?
12:47:47 <Rugxulo> same as XBox 360, I don't like the name
12:48:01 <ehird> And PlayStation. I mean, what? It's not a train station or a bus station or anything.
12:48:16 <ehird> It's a box with electronics inside it, not a station of ANY KIND.
12:48:33 <Rugxulo> and Game Boy is sexist, omg
12:48:34 <ehird> GameCube? It's not a cube that is a game. STUPID.
12:48:40 <ehird> Game Boy isn't even an animal.
12:48:56 <ehird> Atari? WHAT IS AN ATARI?!
12:49:13 <ehird> IT IS A COMPUTER NOT A MOVE
12:49:19 <ehird> Amiga? It is NOT a female human, and if it was it probably wouldn't be your friend!
12:49:36 <ehird> (Opera?! It doesn't even have any fat ladies!)
12:49:49 <Rugxulo> opera is the plural of opus (Latin)
12:49:55 <ais523> atari isn't quite a move in Go
12:50:03 <ais523> it's a strategic situation, I think
12:50:05 <ehird> OPERA IS A SINGLE WORK
12:50:08 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
12:50:15 <ais523> I can't remember exactly what it is, although IIRC some rulesets have to special-case it
12:50:17 <ehird> it's a very nice name, incidentally
12:50:21 <ehird> Rugxulo: unified under one project.
12:50:38 <Rugxulo> "polite way of saying check" (or something, I dunno)
12:50:52 <Deewiant> It's when a group of stones can be captured on the next move
12:51:04 <Rugxulo> "sente" is another one, I think
12:51:12 <ehird> - Fitt's law aaaaaaargh
12:51:19 <ehird> - Why isn't it recognizing my mouse wheel? It did before I installed all those updates.
12:51:23 <Rugxulo> Fitts, I thought we established ;-)
12:51:35 <ehird> It recognized it as a Mouse Port mouse, but still.
12:51:40 <ehird> (It now recognizes it as a PS/2 mouse.)
12:51:48 <Deewiant> Can't recall what sente is except that its counterpart is gote
12:52:15 <Rugxulo> BTW, worst name ever: OS/2
12:52:29 <ehird> Ooh, ooh, let's see what Flash Player I can get! EXCITING!
12:52:38 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: A follow-up from PS/2
12:52:42 <ehird> Will it blend^Wyoutube?
12:52:52 <ehird> It installed Flash 10.
12:52:58 <ehird> Flash 10 can't possibly support NT 4, can it?
12:53:22 <ehird> Wants SetFilePointerEx.
12:53:29 <Rugxulo> dunno, but there's a really small Linux distro (xPUD, 50 MB) that claims to have Flash 10 out of the box
12:53:31 <ehird> Could at least have checked the OS...
12:53:41 <ehird> Rugxulo: it'll have a recent kernel.
12:53:58 <ehird> sweet, the uninstaller errors out
12:54:05 <ehird> talk about vendor lockin
12:54:23 <ehird> hey, it disappeared but is still there
12:55:57 * Rugxulo gotta hit the dusty trail ...
12:56:45 <ehird> i think "enjoy" is too strong
12:57:12 <Rugxulo> besides, you never did try DOSBox ;-)
12:57:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
12:59:46 <ehird> DOSBox doesn't work; installer fails to create start menu shortcut or Add/Remove entry, and links with SHGetSpecialFolderPathA (funnily enough, that same function although I think W not A is the reason the latest seamonkey doesn't work on win95)
13:00:38 <Deewiant> You can install the Unicode stuff for Win95 which might make that work
13:00:53 <ehird> NT supports Unicode, no?
13:01:05 <ehird> At least I can save files as Unicode in Notepad.
13:01:19 <ehird> Will the 95 stuff work, then?
13:01:29 <Deewiant> No, because you already have it
13:01:49 <ehird> No, it's the function itself not there, not the variant
13:01:53 <ehird> Both W and A don't exist in it
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13:50:51 <fizzie> Hrm, I couldn't help myself, and had to make a TI-86 port of robotfindskitten.
13:54:49 <fizzie> You don't get a fancy greyscale splash screen with TI-basic. :p
13:55:14 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/rfk86/ and screen_splash.png
13:55:41 <fizzie> The picture is as-yet-without-permission lifted from the rfk "ultimate fanpage".
13:58:04 <fizzie> Oh yes. I use them in assembler files with 8-column tabs; it's sufficiently retro.
13:58:21 <fizzie> I do the whole "automatic tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment" in more.. structured languages.
13:58:58 <fizzie> And actually I think the Perl scripts in there are all four-spaces-no-tabs-at-all indented.
13:59:14 <fizzie> A bit of variety in indentation styles is good for the soul.
13:59:32 <ehird> | rfk86 v0.1.f8e11a0b3b0e39addfc8a0316bc5b21fa8a26ec6 |
13:59:45 <ehird> | How to Compile It (if You have the Source Package) |
13:59:45 <fizzie> That's the Git tag object hash there in the version. :p
13:59:50 <ehird> Ohh, you need the source to compile it?
14:00:33 <ais523> nah, you can compile it directly from the binary
14:00:42 <ais523> (quines need more love...)
14:01:17 <ehird> fizzie: how are you so cool to do that in like two days.
14:01:24 <ehird> i need more motivation :|
14:02:51 <fizzie> That's more like three days. Though admittedly I spent one day fiddling with a deflate decompressor, got it half-way done (it builds the dynamic Huffman trees from the deflate code-length format) then decided to screw it and just embed the ~20k of message data as-is; I mean, who cares if it eats ~24k of the 96k of memory available for storing programs in the TI-86?
14:03:29 <ehird> Screeeeeeeeeeeew you. Maybe I should learn TI-86 assembly so I can be a cool kid.
14:03:39 <ehird> Or maybe HP CALCULATOR REVERSE POLISH LISP.
14:03:43 <ehird> I don't think that can do graphics though.
14:03:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, when you have rfk86, what else do you need in your calculator?
14:04:22 <ehird> fizzie: you should make the version number the sha-1 of every file tarred, including the file with the version number
14:04:34 <ehird> use that ioccc entry to do it :P
14:04:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, 19k of that is the uncompressed messages, and ~2.4k more is uncompressed bitmaps. When I am lazy, I really *am* lazy.
14:04:50 <ehird> There are that many messages
14:05:13 <fizzie> There are somewhat over 400 of them, yes.
14:05:15 <ehird> Gah; anyone know how to turn off that stupid Gecko caret that positions when you click text?
14:05:43 <Deewiant> die "aieee, wrapping problem: $msg" if $break < 0;
14:05:53 <ehird> [[It's a blatant plug for Ogg Vorbis, http://www.vorbis.com/]]
14:06:08 <ehird> Clearly we need a robotfindskitten variant played entirely with ear and microphone.
14:06:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right, that shouldn't happen; and it won't unless you mess with messages.txt.
14:06:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Admittedly it could be "return $msg" instead of "die" there, I just wanted to see if it actually happens.
14:06:36 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:06:39 <Deewiant> How many messages did you have to remove to make that pass? ;-)
14:06:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:06:57 <ehird> Don't you have to add INT_MAX-408
14:07:03 <ehird> I haven't read that code, I'm just guessing
14:07:04 <fizzie> None, they're all there. It would only trigger if you had a 32-character no-whitespace sequence in a message.
14:07:28 <ehird> so does this thing work on a real ti-83
14:07:41 <fizzie> TI-86; there was a TI-83+ port already.
14:07:50 <ehird> Almost identical, no?
14:07:59 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
14:07:59 <ehird> | By John Charroux
14:07:59 <ehird> | This is a version of the Inform port (.z5 relase
14:07:59 <ehird> | 6) converted with the inf2d64 utility to
14:08:00 <ehird> | Commodore 64 disk format.
14:08:06 <ehird> OK, that's just ridiculous
14:08:14 <Deewiant> But I presume fizzie already did
14:08:35 * ehird considers writing rfk in Plain English
14:08:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Emulated only; the reason is in the README.txt.
14:08:55 <Deewiant> I hope the kittens didn't get a stomachache
14:09:08 <ehird> Are you actually obligated to fashion the piece?
14:09:17 <ehird> I'M NOT SURE THAT'S FREE AS IN FREEDOM.
14:09:31 <fizzie> ehird: I don't know how laws work. I guess it's what they call a moral duty.
14:09:47 <ehird> it hasn't been ported to an fpga yet :(
14:14:42 <fizzie> TI-86 was the only "computer" I had that didn't already run it, I think. (Since the "POSIX" version just needs curses, and therefore probably runs on all "real computers", and the j2me version is midp-1-only so it works even on the crummy N-gage.)
14:15:29 <ehird> Let's see... I'd need an iPhone version (I guess I could use a terminal emulator), a gamecube version, a gameboy advance version, an ipod version (rockbox can play doom!)...
14:15:35 <ehird> old ipod that is, greyscale
14:15:58 <ehird> oh, there's that shitty nokia dumbphone. doubt that could run anything
14:16:07 <ehird> oh, and something that can run on mac os 9.
14:16:17 <ehird> guess that exists though
14:16:19 <ehird> oh, plus something for my router.
14:16:28 <ehird> i think that covers it
14:16:49 <ehird> apart from the obvious boring linux and stuff
14:17:14 <fizzie> Well, I have the network disk server and the WLAN access point, too, but since those are just embedded Linux systems, I'm sure you could mangle the original sources in there with a bit of work; not so interesting.
14:17:36 <ehird> Same for my router.
14:17:47 <ehird> And probably iPhone with a terminal emulator.
14:18:07 <fizzie> I'm a bit surprised there's no flashy iPhone version yet, though; there's Android and Maemo (though those are pretty recent).
14:18:37 <ehird> You can never find zen with an iPhone. That's why Steve Jobs, a Buddhist, is trying to kill the App Store with awful policies.
14:18:45 <ehird> He realised what a terrible, terrible crime he has committed.
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14:27:53 <ehird> i still had my force field of dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
14:28:09 <oerjan> well then you are doomed, then. how tragic.
14:30:08 <ehird> how tragic? well personally i think it's magic
14:30:51 <oerjan> magic is tragic. everytime i dream of doing magic, it ends up going wrong.
14:30:59 <fizzie> Draaaaaa-gon, draaaaaa-gon; something reminded me of the chanting conspiracisists in the Discworld game.
14:31:05 <oerjan> it's almost a recurring dream, but with variations
14:31:21 <oklopol> would rhyme better with "i end up doing a fat chick"
14:31:43 <oerjan> this night, i ended up being stuck at shrunk to 2 m - usual size
14:31:51 <ehird> that juxtaposition
14:32:01 <ehird> <oklopol> would rhyme better with "i end up doing a fat chick"
14:32:02 <ehird> <oerjan> this night, i ended up being stuck at shrunk to 2 m - usual size
14:32:27 <oerjan> (well, for a value of night ~~ about half an hour ago)
14:32:28 <oklopol> there's a reason they call it a "cod piece"
14:35:12 <fizzie> oklopol: Sounds *fishy*, eh-eh-eh-eh-eh-eee...
14:35:22 <oklopol> i'm not sure about the details, but you know, norwegian dudes have massive cocks, and they like cod.
14:35:23 <ehird> it's the fish fish magic dance
14:35:33 <oklopol> the massive cock thing being the juxtaposition ehird mentioned
14:35:50 <ehird> i wasn't intending to make that reference.
14:36:02 <oklopol> i don't care what you intended
14:36:08 <ehird> SORRY OKLOPOL MAYBE YOU READ YOUR EFFENZCXZIALOZIATION INTO THE WORLD
14:36:44 <oerjan> well it may be massive, but 2m - usual size would still not count as "shrunk"
14:37:07 <oklopol> if that is shrinking, your penis must be over 1m
14:37:19 <oerjan> indeed it would have to be
14:37:58 <oerjan> anyway this was a dream... it could have been
14:38:52 <ehird> how many flautists are present for the......................
14:39:01 <oerjan> oh wait it was 3m - usual size, i think. it's a bit unclear but i felt like a dwarf, not a lilliputian
14:39:36 <oklopol> 3m - your size is not a dwarf
14:39:43 <ehird> "oh wait it was 3m - usual size, i think"
14:40:01 <oklopol> well, i guess it's close to it
14:40:10 <oerjan> 1.18 m is not a dwarf?
14:40:23 <ehird> a 3 meter penis size is a dwarf in finland?
14:40:35 <ehird> DON'T BLAME ME OKLOPOL CORRUPTED MY MIND
14:42:04 <ehird> what are yall talking about
14:42:21 <oerjan> last i measured. which admittedly was many years ago. i may indeed have shrunk.
14:42:37 <ehird> (a, comedy option) jesus christ
14:42:44 <ehird> (b) i always imagined you as short.
14:42:53 <ehird> i think it's because you're inoffensive.
14:43:07 <oklopol> oerjan: i think i confused 160 and 180 in my head, they taste very similar
14:43:21 <ehird> now that's a new kind of synasthewhateveria
14:43:25 <oklopol> they are friends, so to speak
14:43:45 <ais523> <thue> It definitively does not cost $17 to server 3 gluon-bits (gb) to a customer.
14:43:51 <ais523> it was an idiotic quote, that's why I was pasting it
14:43:54 <ais523> but now I've noticed the username
14:43:59 <ais523> probably a coincidence
14:44:35 <ehird> gluon-bits? is he trying to be funny by misunderstanding "gb"?
14:45:30 <ehird> what's the context?
14:45:32 <ais523> especially has he uses "GiB" later in the same comment
14:45:45 <ais523> and the context is manufacturers charging $17 P&P for free upgrades to Windows 7
14:45:52 <ais523> strangely, this appears to be not Microsoft's fault this time
14:45:57 <ais523> just greedy PC manufacturers
14:46:14 <oerjan> ehird: well maybe he is commenting on capitalization?
14:46:31 <ehird> thue sounds like one of those people who uses ``quotes like these'', always adds the nose to their emoticons and uses a lot of retarded Jargon File terminology
14:46:34 <ehird> probably uses emacs
14:46:44 <ehird> I'm wildly stereotyping here, but that's the vibe I got
14:47:28 <oerjan> ehird: does he have a cat or a dog?
14:47:49 <ehird> if anything, one cat.
14:48:07 <ehird> he also probably has a disdain for laptops - ok, I'm really going off the deep end here
14:49:14 * oerjan used to add a nose to emoticons, but you have corrupted me
14:49:43 <ehird> oh, I do it quite a lot, but not all the time
14:49:48 <oerjan> which means this guy is _my complete opposite_. well, if i had a dog.
14:50:12 <ehird> in comparison with the other personality traits of this archetype, though, it just gives off the snooty-person-with-dirty-unkempt-beard
14:51:00 <ehird> I'm tired of all this yabba jabba about ESO-os
14:51:07 <ehird> i'ma make a new source tree
14:51:12 <oerjan> and i don't have a beard either. the plot thickens!
14:52:45 <oerjan> kerning on in the kernel
14:55:32 <ehird> now where's that enlightening forum thread
14:55:41 <ehird> i've got some metasemantics on the fuckin' x86 to do
14:56:33 <ehird> ais523: you like ESO, don't you?
14:56:39 <oerjan> i nev *hit by falling anvil*
14:57:11 <ehird> good! then be unexcited, because i am be king of vaporware
14:58:33 <oerjan> Deewiant: they're snotty and impolite
14:59:00 <ehird> ais523: i meant the eso os btw
14:59:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: she already _said_ she was going to betray them. how stupid can you get? :D
15:00:35 <oerjan> it's a pun on reverse polish notation, and polish sausage
15:00:38 <ais523> although EsoOS or whatever is probably good for unambiguating
15:00:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a reference to geek culture
15:00:49 <ehird> INSTANT HILARIOUS LAUGHTER
15:01:02 <oerjan> ehird: synthesized laughter
15:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that is supposed to be "bun saussage in"?
15:01:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: overanalyzing. it's just the position of bun and sausage that are reversed
15:02:15 <ehird> sausage is an operator
15:02:18 <ehird> ( and ), the bun, are arguments
15:02:22 <ehird> ( sausage ) is calling sausage with ( and )
15:02:36 <ehird> in case you haven't realised yet IT'S NOT A JOKE, it's a shitty unfunny reference
15:02:37 <ehird> like 90% of recent xkcds
15:03:03 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed I'm aware of this.
15:15:44 <ehird> Six word NT 4 review: 95, doesn't crash, configuration little awkwarder.
15:16:33 <ehird> Bonus five-word additional review: Maximum DirectX 3 = forget non-retro-games.
15:19:55 <ehird> ok, crazy ESO idea: think one-time pads, but for obscurity, not security
15:20:17 <ehird> no single thing can know all the state of the system, even if it talks to another that knows the bit it's missing
15:20:46 <ehird> thus, no kernel is possible; every object has to govern a set of neighbour objects and with the whole of them, the entire system is accounted for
15:21:31 <ehird> hopefully, this isn't just a constraint coded in, but actually done cryptographically, so that it could not be subverted by e.g. exploited the OS code
15:25:39 <Ilari> Language with classes that can be instantiated as objects. The only ways to obtain reference to another object is to either be that object, create that object yourself, or receive reference in message from some object that already has it. All system resources are represented by objects (main method is called with message containg all sorts of system resources).
15:26:05 <ehird> Eh, that's boring; if you become chums with the other objects you can see the whole system.
15:26:15 <ehird> Plus, that just sounds like an exokernel to me.
15:26:59 <ehird> The idea I have would be the little neighbourhood dictatorships of kernelling objects compete to complete certain tasks, and other neighbourhoods work to make them collide in a way to produce what they want,e tc.
15:27:18 <ehird> So the whole system is a war of object-dictatorship-neighbourhoods that cannot know all the others.
15:27:55 <ehird> Bonus: Two objects might be given the same object to dictate, and they'll have to figure out why it's changing from underneath them and change the object to boot out the other kernel.
15:29:40 <Ilari> If those objects are implemented at "hardware" level, and "peripherals" show up as objects too, such system would not need supervisor mode.
15:32:33 <ehird> I like the idea of having to work your way up the rung just to get to certain parts of the system.
15:32:43 <ehird> It'd be like a game you play by writing programs into the OS.
15:34:28 <ais523> hmm... it would be rather like being involved in a codenomic
15:34:38 <ais523> except all the time, and you have to scam your way up
15:35:33 <ehird> system objects would be written with different tactics; sure, they'd have a job to do, but they'd have to fight other groups, bully their own pilgrim objects (that may themselves have similar plots), fight off any maliciousness in *their* kernel, ...
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15:48:18 <ais523> wow, there are actually people in ##language-holy-wars
15:48:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("So you scared them away?").
15:49:42 <ais523> because it was linked in #nethack
15:51:03 <ehird> ok, i must admit that NT 4 is very nice
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16:11:24 <ehird> I delete one registry item and suddenly... menus are opening without the delay first.
16:11:29 <ehird> What. Put that back god dammit. It's irritating.
16:14:38 <AnMaster> ehird, not odd that messing in the registry causes settings to change
16:14:50 <AnMaster> unless of course the key was completely unrelated
16:14:57 <ehird> The entry was a key relating a program executable name to a path.
16:15:15 <ehird> It had to do with enabling buttons 4 and 5 on a Microsoft mouse, which I don't have.
16:15:20 <ehird> So yeah WHAT THE FLYING FUCKING SHIT.
16:15:21 <AnMaster> can't say I see how it would affect menu delay indeed
16:15:36 <AnMaster> unless it also happens to handle menu delay
16:15:38 <ehird> Maybe the mouse driver chooses when to send the "show menu event". That would be (a) exciting (b) retarde.d
16:15:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Just tried it.
16:16:09 <AnMaster> ehird, changing it back fixes it?!
16:16:26 <ehird> I ran the background program in question (point32) and it fixed itself.
16:16:37 <ehird> So, time to uninstall those drivers, reinstall them, and accept the tiny little process in the background.
16:16:48 <ehird> It's just that the scroll wheel worked without it running, so I assumed I didn't need it...
16:17:19 <ehird> AnMaster: At least it (v3) beats the v4 of the same drivers; they require IE 4 for god knows what reason.
16:17:57 <AnMaster> I bet the control panel requires IE or something
16:18:06 <ehird> It's how you get scroll wheels working in 95/NT4.
16:18:25 <ehird> Anyway, at least NT 4 is stable enough that I can mess around with stuff like that and then put it back together as it was without breaking things.
16:18:54 <AnMaster> I probably said it before.... but: MS mice are actually very comfortable. That is about the only think microsoft did well IMO.
16:19:05 <ehird> Apparently their ergonomic keyboards are good too.
16:19:23 <AnMaster> ehird, no opinion on that due to not having tried those
16:19:47 <AnMaster> anyway microsoft should really switch to develop HID stuff. And leave the software to companies like Apple.
16:19:47 <ehird> I currently use a bog-standard shiny-black two-buttons-and-a-clickable-wheel wireless (USB dongle) Logitech mouse.
16:20:03 <ehird> Can HID handle 5 remappable buttons
16:20:07 <ehird> For things like games.
16:20:14 <ehird> Remappable at driver leve.
16:20:30 <AnMaster> um HID is a generic sort of interface
16:20:31 <ehird> I thought you meant
16:20:35 <ehird> The HID specification
16:20:39 <ehird> as opposed to human interface devices
16:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant human interface devices in general
16:20:48 <ehird> like, "MS stop writing drivers, let Apple write them"
16:20:53 <ehird> which is a bizarre sentiment...
16:21:16 <AnMaster> but yes the spec should be able to handle 5 buttons I believe
16:21:30 <ehird> Yes, but remappable before the game gets to them?
16:21:34 <AnMaster> what with a 36-button joystick of mine showing up as a HID device
16:21:48 <ehird> No way you can possible make use of all those.
16:22:01 <AnMaster> ehird, throttle+joystick shows up as one HID device
16:22:27 <ehird> (Fun fact: There is a C:\WINNT\Profiles\Administrator with the desktop and stuff and a "Personal" folder, yet the home path is set to C:\...)
16:22:41 <ehird> (This applies to every other user too; we all call C:\ home sweet home.)
16:22:46 <AnMaster> 10 axis in total I think. Or was it 12? Anyway two of them are for one of the hat switches for example.
16:22:55 <ehird> Oh, axis don't count as proper buttons :P
16:22:58 <AnMaster> oh and buttons. Some are one button that can be flipped in more than one way
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16:23:09 <ehird> I was thinking 36 actual push buttons
16:23:11 <ehird> which is beyond useless
16:23:12 <AnMaster> ehird, none of those 36 *are* axis
16:23:19 <ehird> take a picture of this thing.
16:23:52 <ehird> http://www.ozhardware.com.au/images/stories/review_images/Input%20Devices/Saitek%20X52%20Pro/x52top.jpg
16:24:01 <AnMaster> oh and one of the hats shows up as 4 buttons, the other hat shows up as two axis
16:24:01 <ehird> i don't really see 36 buttons there.
16:24:04 <ehird> or any spot where there could be
16:24:18 <ehird> anyway, how much does this thing cost.
16:24:22 <AnMaster> ehird, on the base of the joystick there are three buttons. that can be moved up/down
16:24:27 <AnMaster> one button for up, another for down
16:24:41 <ehird> doesn';t count as an actual button :P
16:24:45 <AnMaster> so yeah not 36 *physical* buttons. But 36 in HID
16:24:50 <AnMaster> which is what I said all along
16:24:57 <ehird> Ho many physical buttons?
16:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as for cost, no idea. was on wishlist for bday present a few years ago.
16:25:41 <ehird> prolly like 200 quid looking at the size of it
16:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, hard to define. for example the "trigger" has two levels (shows up as two buttons)
16:25:48 <AnMaster> like press it half way in, press it fully in
16:26:05 <ehird> that is the question
16:26:18 <ehird> hmm i become more stupid whenever oklopol talks
16:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and see the blank metal wheel on the top of the joystick? that is a three choice button.
16:26:45 <AnMaster> shows up as "always one of a set of three pressed"
16:26:56 <AnMaster> so a bit hard to say how many physical ones
16:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it all depends on what you count as a button
16:27:16 * ehird wonders why MS thinks I need a start menu folder for their mouse
16:28:02 <AnMaster> or like an uninstaller link or such too?
16:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that joystick uses the hall effect rather than potentiometers for the joystick itself (I think the throttle uses a pot, not sure)
16:28:53 <ehird> Microsoft Hardware -> Mouse -> Healthy Computing Guide, IntelliPoint (opens the Mouse control panel, which has button configuration stuff if you have the drivers installed), Online User's Guide (online as in Windows Help). c:\winnt\profiles\all users\start menu\programs\... click... <del>... zzap
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16:29:39 <ehird> I like how my system is emulating a Soundblaster 16 for NT.
16:31:45 <ehird> NT seems to be where they really redesigned Windows and had it working stably, fast, securely and with good backwards-compatibility. I wonder why it went downhill a bit.
16:35:44 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about sound, I can't get sound to work with windows 7 in virtualbox
16:35:58 <ehird> What soundcard are you emulating; AC97?
16:36:22 <AnMaster> I forgot to enable it at install time, and enabling after doesn't work
16:36:33 <ehird> Put in the Win7 CD before doing it.
16:36:41 <ehird> If that fails, uber-lazy fix: Tell it to emulate a Soundblaster 16 instead, then check again.
16:36:45 <ehird> If that fails: Dig for the driver on the CD.
16:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, windows xp starts in about 20 seconds from hitting start vm to that it is up and running
16:41:27 <AnMaster> windows 7 takes maybe a minute
16:41:38 <ehird> That 20 second figure is wrong; XP isn't that fast.
16:41:39 <AnMaster> up and running = login window displayed and actually responds to input
16:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, checked with stop watch
16:42:01 <ehird> Well, install them on real hardware instea.
16:42:14 <ehird> Win7 boots up faster for me, subjectively at least.
16:42:40 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't find any usb disk that was large enough for windows 7
16:42:52 <ehird> A USB stick would take *several* minutes to start up; they are horrifically slow.
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16:48:55 <AnMaster> ehird, for locating driver. what manufacture would it be for AC97...
16:49:10 <ehird> Um, none. AC'97 is a standard. Intel, I guess.
16:49:19 <ehird> But seriously, just make it SB16 and be lazy
16:49:20 <AnMaster> looked in generic and intel hm
16:50:13 <ehird> Of course it is; it was even supported in 95.
16:50:21 <ehird> The SB16 is the lowest common denominator.
16:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped support for outdated hardware
16:50:54 <ehird> For the Soundblaster 16? That card is *everything*.
16:50:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:53:50 <ehird> Hmm, they reesigne http://mozilla.org/. Now it looks like a socialist political site.
16:55:15 <ais523> ehird: is your d key broken?
16:55:26 <ais523> "reesigne" seems like a ridiculous typo to manage without something like that
16:55:31 <ehird> I may be unaware of its current position in 3 space.
16:55:44 <ehird> I shoul coe ESO like this.
16:56:00 <ais523> wow, I almost choked then
16:56:06 <ais523> don't talk like that while I'm drinking water
16:58:17 <Deewiant> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/conservapdia_has_a_new_project.php sweet
16:58:36 <ehird> it's not new, quite a few timelengths ol actually
16:58:45 <ehird> ais523: that : was meant to be ecks-ee by the way
16:59:27 <ehird> it was meant to say :-that-letter
16:59:48 <ais523> Deewiant: the subject of that article is ridiculous
16:59:58 <ais523> and the article itself is quite good at pointing out the ridiculousness
17:00:05 <ehird> or more simply: 'that's riiculous"
17:01:41 <ais523> the theory seems to be that the current translations of the Bible are obviously wrong due to not being sufficiently conservative, thus they must have been mistranslated or otherwise reported incorrectly
17:01:55 <Deewiant> Socialistic terminology permeates English translations of the Bible, without justification. This improperly encourages the "social justice" movement among Christians.
17:01:58 <Deewiant> For example, the conservative word "volunteer" is mentioned only once in the ESV, yet the socialistic word "comrade" is used three times, "laborer(s)" is used 13 times, "labored" 15 times, and "fellow" (as in "fellow worker") is used 55 times.
17:02:23 <Deewiant> -- http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
17:03:21 <ehird> Bonus: My key is sporaic
17:03:34 <ehird> fuck this fucking piece of shit broken-ass keyboar
17:06:44 <ehird> someone buy me a as keyboar or something
17:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, no luck at all with sb 16. Doesn't even show up as a missing device
17:08:42 <ais523> "volunteer" is conservative?
17:08:50 <ais523> but... that's people doing things for no money, it'll collapse the economy
17:12:12 <oklopol> "liberals will oppose this effort, but they will have to read the Bible to criticize this, and that will open their minds"
17:12:38 <oklopol> it's like they're constantly making fun of themselves
17:13:21 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's a splinter group formed by the people who joined conservapedia just to troll
17:13:27 <ais523> and have been good at not being found out so far
17:13:45 <ais523> (statistically speaking, we can expect at least one thus-far-undetected conservapedia troll)
17:18:00 <ais523> wow, there's a Windows version of Evince?
17:18:18 <ais523> reading random reddit comments has paid off!
17:18:42 <ehird> whats the avantage over sumatra
17:19:32 <ais523> sumatra has, for me at least, rounded the widths of lines down from less than half a pixel to 0 pixels
17:19:35 <ehird> mupfvff has better winows support than poppler, oesn't it
17:19:38 <ais523> which renders them rather difficult to see
17:20:21 <AnMaster> ehird, wow this is retarded, the windows 7 cd autorun thing offers me to upgrade windows 7 to windows 7 XD
17:20:40 <ehird> it offers that regarless o harf frive space
17:20:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I could see reinstall, but not upgrade
17:21:23 <ehird> it' ofer to upgrae fr-fos
17:21:36 <ais523> http://download.gnome.org/binaries/win32/evince/2.28/evince-2.28.0.msi
17:21:53 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway no luck with sb16. At least AC97 shows that the device exists
17:21:55 <ais523> next issue: I'd need Wine to actually check that it works
17:21:58 <ehird> ya think it works on 16
17:22:00 <ais523> which seems rather counterintuitive
17:30:01 <ehird> btw, anyone with an nt-erive winows: wtf is %winir%\clock?
17:30:53 <AnMaster> ehird, the dvd doesn't contain the data. It contains an opaque install.wim with all the stuff in
17:31:06 <AnMaster> $ file /mnt/iso/sources/install.wim
17:31:06 <AnMaster> /mnt/iso/sources/install.wim: data
17:31:15 <ehird> eewiant: a the forbien letter an a fffffile extension
17:31:16 <AnMaster> and there are no other candidates for install data
17:32:38 <ehird> well, here's my C:\WINNT\clock.avi: http://filebin.ca/cwn{THAT LETTER I CAN'T TYPE COMING AFTER C}ww
17:33:00 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, ehird can't type d
17:33:06 <ais523> ehird: put one on the clipboard
17:33:09 <ais523> and type it with control-C
17:33:19 <ehird> An ffff is sporaic, so I have to hol it own, making me a fnake!
17:33:42 <ehird> ais523: but I copy things all the time
17:33:56 <ais523> vi has a good solution to this problem
17:34:16 <ais523> except, trying to use vim with a broken d key would be a pain
17:34:26 <ehird> what's the solution?
17:34:48 <ehird> OMG OMG OMG chm files work
17:34:50 <ehird> that means I still have IE
17:35:21 <ais523> ehird: multiple clipboards, each with a different keyboard shortcut to copy to and paste from it
17:35:29 <ais523> well, with the typical vi equivalent of a keyboard shortcut
17:36:38 <ehird> okay RELAX elliott, we can fin the lls
17:37:09 <ehird> i wish "completely obliterate IE" returne more google results
17:38:45 * ais523 wonders how many keys would have to break before ehird's IRC-speech would be completely unintelligible
17:38:58 <ehird> well let's see, with science
17:39:02 <ehird> I will pop off two keys now
17:39:21 <ais523> why are you mutilating your own keyboard?
17:39:21 <ehird> hello goo chaps, how are ou toa?
17:39:28 <ehird> ais523: the caps fit bac on
17:39:42 <ehird> unless the're broen, or whatever, lie f ans that letter after c
17:40:02 <ehird> still coherent? just preten i'm run|<.
17:40:09 <ehird> oh go leetspea what have i one
17:42:05 <ehird> time ffffffor two more
17:42:09 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:42:36 <ehird> hhhhhhhgggggggggggggggg5444444444444444
17:43:01 <ehird> ais523: goo moning ameica!
17:43:23 <ehird> Well, I thin fo the OS achitecute we nee bas secisions ans a capp ilesustem
17:43:59 <ehird> Am I maing an sot of bague sene?
17:44:53 <ais523> you are making a sort of vague sense, though
17:45:12 <ehird> Bagel ecisions, cleal.
17:45:18 <ehird> But es, ba sessicions.
17:45:45 <ehird> Oa, I'm so incompehsible that I'ma o one tei at a time.
17:45:48 <ais523> really, you just need one decision that's so monumentally bad it forces the rest of the OS back into line
17:45:56 <ehird> Since I'm hitting the limits of the English language.
17:46:01 <ehird> HOL FUCING SHIT ^^^^
17:46:21 <ais523> which keys do you have left?
17:46:31 <ehird> qwetuiopasfghjlzxcbnm
17:46:32 <ais523> (I'd ask which you'd removed, but you might find it hard to answer...)
17:46:42 <ehird> I thin I'll tae one off!
17:47:29 <ehird> So, in this postmoenist soiet, we neef eso OSs to ensue exonomi stabilit.
17:48:09 <ehird> Feathe is a language about weteoatibe xhanges to the intepete, itself wtieen in Feathe.
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17:48:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> Bagel ecisions, cleal. <-- some kind of bred isn't it?
17:49:00 <ais523> actually... I think the way it works is, that the interp isn't originally written in Feather
17:49:03 <ais523> but improvements to it are
17:49:08 <ehird> Goos motning amuixa!
17:49:08 <ais523> such that the interp ends up mostly in Feather
17:49:25 <ais523> ehird: it's a testament to the amount of redundancy in English that I actually understand that
17:50:36 <ehird> Owthogonal is a Bfung-stil languag wiht subual ogg fituis, inxluing gaphis pogamming.
17:51:09 <ehird> That's "Su_" fom abo.
17:51:28 <ehird> with two ltt missing
17:51:32 <AnMaster> ehird, remove all keys except 0 and 1
17:51:47 <ehird> ais523: I am still ompwhinsibl?
17:52:07 <AnMaster> ehird, are you using a "hit nearest key" algorithm?
17:52:23 <ais523> although it took me a few secnods for that one
17:52:32 <ehird> Im tping aht-bff smms to aptu th wssnx bst.
17:53:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> Im tping aht-bff smms to aptu th wssnx bst. <-- "I'm typing ??? sms to ??? the wessex best"?
17:53:33 <AnMaster> err I think that is "wessex" even
17:53:51 <ais523> "capture the essence", I think
17:53:55 <fizzie> Gah, the rfk86 thing doesn't work with the same emulator here at home; though it's with the 1.6 ROM, but still.
17:53:55 <ehird> Im tping Wat-abbw.
17:54:08 <ais523> <ehird> I'm typing what-ever seems to capture the essence best.
17:54:21 <ehird> I habw what, atuall.
17:54:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: TI-86, of course. Weren't you here when I babbled about what I wrote? Hmm, maybe not.
17:54:45 <ais523> ehird: this would be a great conversation for people to walk into the middle of
17:55:13 <ehird> ais523: Anoth? :-)
17:55:16 <fizzie> Today at around 15 your time.
17:55:23 <ehird> I am still ompwhsnibl?
17:55:35 <ais523> I have to think, though
17:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, that phrase "ompwhsnibl" is quite because you asked the same question a few times now
17:55:52 <ais523> it's no longer habit-reading, it's like reading before you've learnt to read
17:56:17 <ais523> on your third statement
17:56:40 <ehird> So. Jow aw u luqi lot?
17:56:40 <ais523> AnMaster: what habitually follows "hello" in programs?
17:56:51 <ais523> ehird: you got rid of "h" too/
17:56:55 <ais523> and I'm fine, thank yo
17:57:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how can "lx" be anywhere nere "rd"?
17:57:11 <ehird> ais523: Wjat I sai?
17:57:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's closer to "rld"
17:57:24 <ehird> AnMaster: x = substitut onsonant
17:57:26 <ais523> ehird's been using x to substitute for arbitrary plosives
17:57:37 <ais523> or possibly consonants in general
17:57:54 <ehird> Wjat I sai: "Jow aw u luqi lot"?
17:58:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> So. Jow aw u luqi lot? <-- something about Lugi. Or maybe Mario?
17:58:01 <ais523> "How are you lucky lot?"
17:58:25 <AnMaster> whoa that was quite a few lines at once
17:58:43 <AnMaster> everything from "<ais523> AnMaster: it's closer to "rld"" to "<ais523> So what?" arrived in one go
17:58:49 <ais523> (I need to get a script to do that response... I do it far too often)
17:59:39 <ais523> whoops, I accidentally inverse-videod the window
17:59:41 <ais523> you have to love Compiz
17:59:43 <ehird> Wi all plai tja Wii; tju most mi-uxpumnt fuanxli gaming sistwm!
18:00:09 <ehird> (Bit awx, but xiabl.)
18:00:10 <ais523> "We all play the Wii; the most ? family gaming system!"
18:00:13 <AnMaster> ais523, what the heck. Why even have a feature for it
18:00:20 <ais523> "mi-uxpumnt" is fooling me atm
18:00:24 <ais523> AnMaster: to make it easier to read
18:00:27 <ehird> ais523: No @ famili
18:00:44 <AnMaster> Famicom? wasn't that like NES for japan or such?
18:00:47 <ehird> Ponounx fuanxli, wxagg. tj "ua"
18:01:19 <ais523> still doesn't explain the "mi-uxpumnt", though
18:01:22 <ehird> Mi uxpumunt: ponounx
18:01:38 <ais523> "uxpumunt" = "experiment"?
18:01:42 <ais523> that doesnt' seem to fit
18:01:54 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in German
18:02:02 <ais523> and it fits a lot better with the letters ehird has left
18:02:44 <ehird> Fwtx is a languag wit mani tim taxwl pagoxws! It is fun.
18:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, fwtx first made me think of fthang...
18:03:08 <ais523> "Feather is a language with meany time travel paradoxes!"
18:03:09 <AnMaster> no clue what it is supposed to be though
18:03:19 <ais523> and I don't need to translate the bit after the !
18:03:30 <ais523> hmm... this is probably a very good way to speak in a way that only native speakers can understand
18:03:32 <ehird> (Xjit sligtli; u no Fwtx so pix out tj ualaxant fax.)
18:03:37 <ais523> simply because we have more redundancy
18:04:24 <AnMaster> I was typing on another keyboard than I thought I did
18:04:26 <ais523> ehird: well, it's hard not to cheat in this sort of situation
18:04:29 <ehird> (Xjit sligtli; u no Fwtx so pix out tj ualaxant fax.)
18:04:30 <ais523> AnMaster: what was the tab-complete for?
18:04:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I already had ais523 tab completed and was going to write something else
18:05:00 <ais523> "(Cheat slightly; you know Feather so pick out the relevant facts)"
18:05:04 <AnMaster> but I forgot what keyboard I was on
18:05:28 <AnMaster> assuming you droped 6 and 4 that is
18:05:40 * ais523 wonders if ehird still has numbers
18:05:45 <ehird> Fowbixxin xowil o not xowil? Tipinxs!
18:05:46 <ais523> he clearly has at least common punctuation marks
18:05:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> Fowbixxin xowil o not xowil? Tipinxs! <-- what ?
18:06:09 <ais523> the first word is clearly "forbidden"
18:06:22 <ais523> although "Tipinxs" could be "typing"
18:06:33 <ehird> Tjin abat xontaxt!
18:06:53 <AnMaster> I wouldn't have managed it with "Tjinq"
18:06:56 <ehird> i: fowbixxin. Xowil o not xowil?
18:07:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> i: fowbixxin. Xowil o not xowil? <-- something about "to be or not to be"?
18:07:49 <AnMaster> though "to be" doesn't fir there
18:07:53 <ehird> It tipinxs wjatja owbixxin latta is xowil o not xowil.
18:08:10 <ehird> Somtims xowil. Somtims not xowil. Xontaxt xjanjis it.
18:08:41 <ehird> I was just alping AnMast gugux it
18:08:54 <AnMaster> also ais523 didn't say what it was above
18:08:59 <ehird> iai: ais got it bifow
18:09:09 <ais523> nah, I'm letting you struggle
18:09:30 <ais523> AnMaster: "Iai" = "Yay"
18:09:30 <ehird> <ais523> "yay", I expect
18:09:31 <AnMaster> so not going to talk in here for a bit
18:09:45 <ehird> Somtims xowil. Somtims not xowil. Fowbixxn, so "i".
18:11:06 <AnMaster> wait what it seems like 64-bit files on win64 are in c:\windows\system32
18:11:27 <ais523> I still don't get "xowil", though
18:11:38 <ehird> Wjat littis in "iai"?
18:11:59 <ais523> and x=arbitrary consonant
18:12:00 <ehird> Tjat is... somtims a xowil.
18:12:05 <ehird> Wjat littis in "iai"?
18:12:24 <ehird> So, ais523: am still, baali, xompijinsibl?
18:12:40 <ais523> you are still barely comprehensible
18:12:43 <ehird> Sai bii to F!!!!!!
18:12:44 <ais523> what letters do you have left?
18:13:10 <ehird> Awjul xollaxtion...
18:14:15 <ehird> Linx mii to wsolang wixi xanxom pag; witjout xlixing. Spasial janxom.
18:15:05 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random
18:15:11 <ais523> took me a few seconds to parse...
18:15:55 <ais523> hmm... actually, I suppose it was lexing that was the trouble
18:16:22 <ehird> BogusXowtj is an asotajix pwogamming languag inspiwx bi Xowtj an Xals, bi Antonio Masio in 2004.
18:16:35 <ehird> Its atixl is a stub.
18:16:51 <ehird> Pajs WITJOUT loojing up!
18:17:10 <ais523> it's an esoteric programming language inspired by Forth and False
18:17:16 <ais523> by Antonio Masio in 2004
18:17:34 <ehird> Not quit Masio, but los anux.
18:17:38 <ais523> (incidentally, is /remembering/ a language from the wiki cheating?)
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18:17:57 <ais523> names are too hard in this
18:18:00 <ais523> if you don't recognise them
18:19:16 <ehird> Pwox is an asotaix pwogamming languag b ijop. A pwogam is a list o linws; blanx linjs a ignowx, an # mawx a linj xommwnt.
18:19:55 <ais523> ignoring the name of the language for now...
18:20:13 <ais523> ? is an esoteric language by ?. A program is a list of lines; blank lines are ignored, and # marks a line comment.
18:20:17 <ais523> proper nouns < everything else
18:21:05 <ehird> It is Ijop in tj awtixl, I guwss, tjo.
18:22:04 <ais523> sorry, doing something else
18:22:22 <ais523> out of the esolangers I know
18:22:41 <ehird> So, lwt mi majx tjis totalli impossibl. Xompajansibl?
18:22:42 <ais523> so now I just have to wonder what Warrigal called it
18:22:59 <ais523> "let me make this totally impossible. Comprehensible?"
18:23:25 <ehird> Ja. But lat's xu nam xist.
18:24:07 <ais523> meh, I have less confusing things to do
18:24:30 <ehird> ais523: Aw. I was just about to maj it nwjx-impossibl too.
18:24:57 <ais523> if you keep going without the proper nouns, I can try in the background
18:26:11 <ehird> ais523: Sai bii bii to... i.
18:26:22 <ais523> what have you done wrong?
18:28:12 <ehird> Uj! Bu bu, o uns a.
18:28:28 <ehird> Mugt us wull gu ull tju uwj.
18:28:34 <ais523> getting rid of all the vowels?
18:28:43 <ais523> ok, just all the others
18:29:58 <ehird> U xunnut uxun tup ux numu nuw...
18:30:21 <ais523> well, "You cannot ... now"
18:31:59 <ais523> you could probably get your keyboard smaller by removing rare letters and keeping just a few vaguely different ones
18:32:05 <ais523> well, I mean sharply different
18:32:10 <ais523> but each covering its own vague area
18:33:25 <ehird> Iiiiii'm baaaaaaack!
18:34:01 <ais523> what letters can you type now?
18:34:30 <ehird> All except that one after c; except they're all a bit mushy now, an of course f is very brittle.
18:34:42 <ehird> Also, I'm instinctively avoiing the actual letters themselves an aiming for ones near them.
18:34:49 <ais523> you need a new keyboard
18:35:14 <ehird> You nee a new trackpa :P
18:35:44 <ais523> my computer booted in diagnostic mode a while back
18:35:47 <ais523> I'm not sure what triggered it
18:35:53 <ais523> but the hardware couldn't find the trackpad
18:35:59 <ais523> so it's definitely a hardware not a software problem
18:36:01 <ehird> rttttttttttttttttttttttttttttoops
18:36:19 <ehird> My nails are too short to get this out argh
18:37:28 <ais523> incidentally, it seems to be possible to get Wikia's Special:Outbound in an infinite loop
18:38:52 <ehird> ctcrfrtrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre
18:39:05 <ehird> cfffffffffrttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt4
18:39:39 <ehird> 8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888885rtrttt
18:39:47 <ehird> dddddddddddddddddddsad
18:40:51 <ehird> 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999555555
18:40:59 <ehird> cffffffffrttrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr5tr
18:41:20 <ehird> ducking piece o acadmeic slime!
18:41:46 <ais523> ehird's d is now working but not the f, it seems
18:42:20 <ehird> I'm doing a totally intense keyboard mod guys
18:42:43 <ehird> 'irst o' all, I've replaced the text on the cap o' my d key with "." on one line and "Del" on the other
18:42:46 <ehird> totally kick-ass, right
18:42:52 <fizzie> Meh, it seems this 1.6 ROM actually, when starting a program, checks whether it has already loaded that particular program in memory, and does not re-copy it if it has. Which breaks some bits of self-modifying code that aren't explicitly initialized. (At least that's what it looks like, but that's completely bonkers: that would break any initialized data in the program that is modified.)
18:42:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> incidentally, it seems to be possible to get Wikia's Special:Outbound in an infinite loop <-- what is that page for?
18:42:57 <ehird> haven't decided what 31337 things to do to my -- key!
18:43:00 <ais523> AnMaster: showing adverts
18:43:28 <ais523> ehird: this'll end in disaster
18:43:32 <ais523> but then, it started in disaster
18:43:35 <ais523> so you're no worse off...
18:43:44 <ehird> Who uses the ./del key on the numpad anyway.
18:44:01 <ehird> Ducking keys that are almost but not quite the same shape
18:44:03 <ehird> DUCK THEM IN THE ASS
18:44:37 <ehird> 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000220
18:44:54 <ehird> rttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
18:45:01 <ehird> rttrrrrttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttrtttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
18:45:08 <ehird> rtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
18:46:07 <ehird> dtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt544t
18:47:41 <AnMaster> ais523, since when does wikipedia have ads!?
18:47:50 <ais523> AnMaster: Wikipedia != Wikia
18:47:51 <ehird> Dail at eading cmopehension
18:48:22 <ehird> do i sound like a manic robot rom space with all o this
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18:48:50 <ais523> still, you could probably waste Wikia's ad agency's money, and indirectly Wikia's when they get less of a good deal next time, by getting your browser to just run Special:Outbound in a loop
18:49:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't specify who you were asking
18:49:28 <ais523> if you just go to Special:Outbound directly
18:49:33 <ais523> the redirect link redirects to itself
18:49:42 <ais523> I'm not sure what happens if you turn it on
18:50:06 <ehird> no such special page
18:50:07 <ehird> on creatures wikia
18:50:12 <ehird> also that error page is skinned in monaco, huh
18:50:24 <ais523> ehird: follow an external link from Wikia, and see what the URL says
18:52:57 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no ad on the outbound page? So I fail to see how it would waste anything
18:53:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it's added via JS
18:53:10 <ais523> which you presumably have turned off
18:53:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but even with it on there are no ads
18:53:26 <AnMaster> I guess it is due to adblock then
18:53:33 <ais523> less weird if you're using adblock
18:53:38 <ais523> that's sort-of what it's meant to do...
18:54:15 <ehird> he lnmewje just wanted an oppertunity to point out
19:03:54 <ais523> if you use adblock, don't complain that you can't see adverts...
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19:52:40 * AnMaster just ate a whole (small) garlic
19:52:46 <zzo38> Please don't say 7zip supports unraring. I have 7zip and it doesn't support unraring. (I have the latest version)
19:53:02 <ais523> zzo38 already gave the reason for his comment
19:53:05 <AnMaster> ais523, why not? garlic is wonderful
19:53:10 <ais523> even if it is slightly out of context
19:53:13 <ais523> well, very out of context
19:54:26 <AnMaster> ais523, also I used one of those things you squeeze on that uses force on the garlic to compact it then dumping the thing on two sandwiches.
19:54:41 <zzo38> The 7-zip web-site says it supports unpacking RAR archive, but I downloaded the latest version, and RAR is not supported.
19:54:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, you expect us to know anything about this?
19:55:25 <zzo38> Fortunately I have PAEXT which does support RAR.
19:56:01 <zzo38> I am commenting on a previous comment before now
19:58:10 <zzo38> However, PAEXT isn't FOSS, but for now I will just have to deal with that, just like I have to deal with Windows, even though it isn't FOSS either.
20:01:59 <AnMaster> ais523, can you think of any good reason to *not* eat a garlic?
20:03:50 <zzo38> Because, you are full of eating, that's why.
20:04:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, is that supposed to make sense?
20:05:00 <ais523> this conversation is surreal
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20:05:11 <oklopol> or perhaps "from eating", but that would be an error, instead of a weird phrasing
20:05:30 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, I think that is supposed to make sense!
20:06:04 * ais523 wonders whether to monologue about Feather, ignoring what the rest of the channel says
20:06:14 <AnMaster> but I wasn't full of food before I ate the garlic
20:06:37 <oklopol> i have been thinking about a lang too, only marginally esoteric though
20:07:02 <oklopol> the thing that's kinda like j but for graphs
20:07:22 <zzo38> ais523: You can monologue like that if you want to, the other people who don't like that can ignore, split, highlight, or silence, your messages temporarily, if some people wants to do that.
20:07:48 <ais523> why would people highlight my messages if they didn't like what I was saying?
20:07:51 <zzo38> (This server supports the SILENCE command, the other three are client-side operations)
20:08:19 <zzo38> Highlight simply to separate the monologue with the rest of the messages to make them both distinct from each other
20:09:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and I'm interested in garli^Wfeather
20:09:20 <ais523> well, I haven't really got much further with it
20:09:25 <ais523> because I've been doing other things
20:09:42 <zzo38> Espernet doesn't support SILENCE command. The SILENCE command is basically similar to an ignore feature but it works server-side instead of client-side.
20:09:44 <ais523> atm I'm wondering how an object can pass itself to its member functions
20:09:51 <zzo38> To try it, just send the command SILENCE to the server
20:10:00 <zzo38> And see if you get an error message or not.
20:10:14 <ais523> I think it'll work much the same way as loops in Unlambda
20:10:23 <ais523> as in, a technical problem that is confusing but has a simple solution
20:12:11 <oklopol> is feather tc without its superfeatures
20:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I give up with sound in windows 7, to fix I'm reinstalling (can still do since I didn't activate it yet)
20:18:05 <ais523> oklopol: yes because it embeds lambda calculus
20:18:09 <ais523> but you aren't supposed to use it like that
20:18:14 <ais523> (and it isn't over-TC even with them)
20:19:11 <AnMaster> ais523, just what the synytax will look like
20:19:19 <AnMaster> lisp-like? C-like? something else?
20:19:19 <ais523> to start with, it's very simple
20:19:29 <ais523> [ x | x ] is lambda x . x
20:19:46 <ais523> and [ ] without | inside is basically grouping parens
20:20:01 <ais523> and a b c is (a(b))(c), like in Haskell
20:20:13 <AnMaster> I don't know lambda calculus (nor unlambda)
20:20:21 <AnMaster> maybe I need to read up on them
20:20:30 <AnMaster> ais523, and nor do I know haskell
20:20:40 <ais523> definitely learn unlambda
20:20:47 <ais523> although you'll probably want to learn lambda calculus first
20:20:50 <oklopol> lambda calculus is the calculus of functions, you have functions that can take functions as parameters and apply them to each other
20:20:53 <ais523> or you won't be able to make sense of anything that's going on
20:21:03 <Slereah> Lazy Bird is for cool cats
20:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I have looked at it, but I really can't think of a reasonable way to program in it
20:21:19 <AnMaster> sure it may be TC... but so is BCT...
20:21:25 <ais523> compiling from lambda calculus is the normal way
20:21:35 <ais523> and even a basic lambda calculus is expressive enough to compile in directly
20:21:48 <Slereah> Lambda calculus is easy enough
20:21:59 <Slereah> You just need to know a few basic functions
20:22:02 <AnMaster> I can't think of how you program in lambda calculus
20:22:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the same way you program in C
20:22:18 <ais523> except you have to generate your control and data structures on the fly
20:22:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hah. No it isn't imperative, I know that much
20:22:32 <Slereah> Well, control is easy enough
20:22:47 <ais523> you can compile imperative programs into lambda calculus pretty directly
20:22:53 <ais523> Slereah: depends on how you define true and false!
20:22:54 <Slereah> And you can do loops with a modified Turing combinator
20:23:07 <ais523> I normally use `ki as false and i as true
20:23:28 <ais523> but, say, `ki and k make an if easier
20:23:46 <Slereah> Saves me a bunch of tropubles
20:24:12 <AnMaster> fun fact: synergy will break out of mouse capturing apps (at least on non-server screen)
20:24:22 <AnMaster> when the mouse reach the edge as it believe it is
20:24:34 <AnMaster> rather than as it is constrained by the mouse capturing app
20:24:43 <AnMaster> in this case the mouse capturing app is virtualboz
20:25:00 <Slereah> Fuck, what was señor Turingos again
20:25:11 <Slereah> Forgot what was the formula
20:26:34 <Slereah> Turing combinator is just ^x^y.y(xxy)
20:27:24 <Slereah> Add a stopping condition, some output and whatever changes for every step you need on the y's
20:35:03 <zzo38> Is the game "Super ASCII MZX Town Part II" is a good game? Or is Part I better?
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20:40:30 <Deewiant> Wow, zeux has spawned that much stuff? I thought it was just one game
20:41:57 <Deewiant> (This game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUM_0cp5xgo)
20:44:40 <Deewiant> Hey, and it's freeware these days, too.
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20:51:41 <zzo38> No, it really has spawned that much stuff.
20:52:01 <zzo38> MegaZeux is licensed by GNU GPL v2 or later version.
20:54:46 <zzo38> And I have also fixed bugs in MegaZeux and added some features, including feature to use Forth codes.
20:56:13 <AnMaster> also how is it pronounced? "mega sucks"?
20:56:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of game is it
20:56:42 <zzo38> MegaZeux is different from Zeux.
20:59:16 <Deewiant> Oh cool, Zeux has savegames, that'll help
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21:00:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as in "system currently heavily loaded, will in a bit"
21:00:34 <AnMaster> ehird, great... reinstalling *didn't* help for audio
21:06:43 <AnMaster> ooh windows 7 now bluescreened on me
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21:09:23 <Warrigal> Judging by the fact that this tab was highlighted, someone said my name or something.
21:13:01 <zzo38> Screenshot of Part I: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png
21:13:26 <zzo38> Screenshot of Part II: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0F/screen0.png
21:13:41 <zzo38> For descriptions, see the MZX wiki and the actual games themself.
21:25:37 <AnMaster> Warrigal, well then maybe there wasn't anything
21:34:43 <fizzie> 20:22:43 [.fi time] <ais523> so now I just have to wonder what Warrigal called it
21:34:54 <fizzie> (That was three hours ago.)
21:37:05 <Warrigal> Pronounced like the word "pros" except with every letter that can be pronounced in two different ways pronounced the other way. :-P
21:40:52 <AnMaster> Warrigal, heh read that as /proc/ first
21:42:09 <Warrigal> What kind of consonant is /c/, anyway? :-P
21:44:13 <Deewiant> In what language is 'o' /ɑ/? O_o
21:44:56 <zzo38> Can you make a suggestion(s) for my game, too?
21:45:05 <zzo38> Part II is not finish being made yet, Part I is finish, OK
21:48:53 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> It may have been Proce. <-- eh?
21:49:02 <AnMaster> I meant as in /proc on a *nix system
21:51:39 <zzo38> Do you think somehow a gopher client could be written for GameBoy?
21:52:15 <zzo38> No. But you could connect something using a extension port
21:53:10 <zzo38> I am interested in these kind of hardware building, too. And then, you could make emulator that can connect to other programs for the extension port
21:54:26 <zzo38> But I think a gopher client could be written in Z-machine, MegaZeux, TADS, and various other things, from use of the program Z-Internet (which I wrote for these purposes).
21:54:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, why not write it in bf + PSOX
21:55:22 <AnMaster> while not for any of those system it is still a fairly interesting challenge
21:56:00 <zzo38> Yes, I could try bf + PSOX, too. Or anyone who wants to, can try it.
21:57:01 <zzo38> Z-Internet allows any program with file access to use non-interactive internet protocols.
21:57:39 <AnMaster> zzo38, even better: implement an emulator of a pre-emptive multitasking OS in bf :D
21:57:59 <AnMaster> challenge (as if it wasn't enough): make it non-sluggish
21:58:30 <zzo38> Z-Internet consists of two programs, a Java program and a bash shell-script. The Java program, called FileWatcher, does nothing except for terminate as soon as a file is created in the current directory. The shell-script is z-internet and it checks for file and does send/receive and deleted files.
22:00:47 <zzo38> I have only ever written two programs in Java: FileWatcher and DocFileExtractor.
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00:29:07 <Warrigal> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bother
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01:21:05 * oklopol is trying to get at least one article on tvtropes finished
01:21:59 <oklopol> i mean i can't not get them finished because i keep opening sublinks or anything, the articles are just really, really boring
01:22:52 <coppro> oklopol: oh, you mean read one
01:23:22 <oklopol> i never contribute to any of the web2 stuff
01:23:51 <coppro> tip: don't read every example in a tvtropes article
01:24:47 <coppro> what's git's equivalent of checkout?
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01:59:49 <Ilari> coppro: What you mean by "checkout"?
02:02:00 <Ilari> coppro: Checkout in approximately the meaning SVN uses it?
02:08:41 <coppro> Ilari: yeah, got it, thanks for asking
02:09:24 <Ilari> coppro: Useful git lession: Figure out exactly what clone does.
02:09:44 <coppro> Ilari: heh. I know what it does. Distributed RCS and all
02:09:59 <coppro> I just don't care when I'm trying to retrieve a source tree so I can build + install
02:10:20 <Ilari> coppro: There's also the infamous remote snapshot.
02:10:44 <Ilari> coppro: Infamous because it almost never works.
02:11:04 <Ilari> (due to server not authorizing it).
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07:39:48 <fizzie> The "job offers" noticeboard here was crowded enough so the posters had been interleaved a bit; one had changed so that they were now looking for "Python oders".
07:40:11 <fizzie> I'm sure there is at least one "Ode to Python" thing, but I didn't realize you could do that sort of thing professionally.
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08:15:06 <Rugxulo> no ehird? I'm surprised ...
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09:02:06 <ais523> ouch, Evolution seems to have deleted my timetable
09:02:20 <ais523> also, I left my keys at home
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10:14:46 <ais523> wb everyone who was on the other side of that netsplitt
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16:01:30 * ais523 is annoyed at today's lecture about Latex
16:01:44 <ais523> the lecturer was trying to enumerate a number of things that differed between Latex and word
16:01:54 <ais523> but all but one was actually a similarity rather than a difference
16:02:08 <ais523> there /are/ reasons to use Latex over Word, but he didn't actually manage any of them
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16:54:56 <AnMaster> ais523, lets see... I can think of think of: consistent formatting, better math support, good support for citations and such through bibtex, much better line breaking algorithm (two justified margins looks horrible in word), easy to automate stuff with it (auto generating tables from source data or such, sure word has VBA but no one can claim that is easy to use..), and several more
16:55:11 <AnMaster> which of those did he mention?
16:55:28 <ais523> oh, he did get the line breaking algorithm
16:55:35 <ais523> none of the others, though
16:55:45 <ais523> he did mention lots of things that both Word and LaTeX are good at
16:55:53 <ais523> and claimed them as advantages for LaTeX
16:56:00 <AnMaster> ais523, line breaking algorithm is a fairly minor point compared to the three first ones
16:56:19 <AnMaster> bibtex in particular is wonderful
16:56:25 <ais523> consistent formatting is possible in Word using styles
16:56:42 <AnMaster> ais523, easy to break by unapplying the style for some part IME
16:57:10 <AnMaster> and that easily happens by mistake
16:57:11 <ais523> yes, but if you're careful not to break it, you can manage it
16:57:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah you need to be super-careful to fool word's "helpful" features trying to guess what sort of formatting you want too
16:58:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and it takes a bit of setup to get it working. With LaTeX it is the default
16:58:50 <AnMaster> I mean, you don't have to figure out where to set sections to be numbered for example
17:06:12 <ais523> I have it installed, but I haven't used it
17:06:22 <AnMaster> the UI looks horrible. think xdialog style on controls
17:10:26 <AnMaster> oh you need to add colours to a palette before you can use them if you don't want any of the standard ~35 or so
17:11:22 <AnMaster> ais523, btw about LaTeX. Any good way to include nice looking function graphs? Like say y=x^2 or something like that
17:11:33 <AnMaster> nice looking, vector graphics if possible
17:11:37 <ais523> there's probably a package for it
17:11:53 <AnMaster> ais523, sure but I have no clue what one.
17:12:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw it turned out there was a package to illustrate the Gaussian method http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/gauss/
17:14:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, now I just have to learn how to use that without messing up the system installation (basically I want to install it somewhere in $HOME
17:15:53 <fizzie> I have a feeling that TeX installations by default include ~/texmf in the relevant paths, but it needs to be a proper texmf tree.
17:16:24 <fizzie> Personally I've just been putting such approximately-one-use-only packages to the same directory with the .tex file itself.
17:16:47 <fizzie> http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=privinst is something I've referred to before, I think.
17:18:54 <AnMaster> hm what does *.sty actually stand for?
17:23:07 <AnMaster> btw I found out cfunge bzr needed a later cmake than 2.6... 2.6.3 at least. This is actually due to how the ncurses check is now done after input on it from ehird
17:23:46 <AnMaster> (basically it turns out "if" in cmake before 2.6.3 didn't support parentheses...)
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17:38:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, given a *.sty or such with embedded latex documentation as comments how do you generate the documentation pdf from it
17:44:03 <fizzie> If it's a .dtx file, which is that "literate-tex, can create both documentation and code" thing, it should be possible to just run it through LaTeX as a source file to generate the documentation.
17:44:20 <fizzie> It redefines % no longer to be a comment or something; I don't really know the details.
17:47:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is actually an *.sty
17:49:00 <fizzie> Well, it might be still in the correct "doc" package format; I don't know. Have you tried to feed it to LaTeX like that?
17:50:02 <AnMaster> LaTeX Warning: You have requested package `',
17:50:02 <AnMaster> but the package provides `gauss'.
17:52:56 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it's not a doc/docstrip-using literate-tex file; the comments seem to be just, well, comments.
17:53:44 <AnMaster> hm doc/docstrip might be worth a try
17:54:17 <fizzie> It's not that; if it were using that style, it should be runnable as a tex file to generate the documentation.
17:56:34 <fizzie> Hmm, or actually I'm not sure; I guess the doc package uses a separate driver file.
17:58:34 <fizzie> It's like a normal article file, except it does \usepackage{doc} and \DocInput{blah.dtx} (or .sty, I guess), and it'll slurp in the comment lines there.
17:59:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, look at http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/gauss/gauss.sty yourself
17:59:55 <AnMaster> it doesn't look like any of the standard ways
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18:02:15 <fizzie> Well, I did get the documentation made out of it.
18:02:37 <fizzie> With a doc driver file:
18:02:42 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/tmp/gauss$ cat gauss.tex
18:02:42 <fizzie> \documentclass{article}
18:03:17 <fizzie> I can't be sure if that's how the author does it, or if he has a trivial script to collect the % lines and stick them in a article container template like that.
18:04:11 <fizzie> (You can replace "\documentclass{article} \usepackage{doc}" with a "\documentclass{ltxdoc}" in that driver file, but it still needs the \usepackage{gauss} in there.)
18:08:41 <AnMaster> I haven't managed to get doc to work. docstrip yes... but not doc
18:09:14 <AnMaster> you mean like a wrapper file for it
18:09:21 <fizzie> Yes, isn't that what I said?
18:09:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes it was. I just misread you first time
18:12:50 <AnMaster> about creating graphs it seems that with pure latex you are more or less forced to use pstricks
18:13:02 <AnMaster> however xfig seems able to export to this
18:13:20 <AnMaster> good unless you need an exact plot of something like x^2 or whatever
18:13:28 <AnMaster> http://glx.sourceforge.net/ looks promising though
18:13:56 <AnMaster> found in gentoo, but as far as I can find, not in ubuntu
18:22:30 <fizzie> GNUplot creates various latex-related outputs too, and you can get reasonably pleasant output from it, it's not just the most user-friendly thing around.
18:23:27 <fizzie> There's the "latex", "pslatex", "pstricks" and "postscript" drivers, all of which can be used.
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18:25:53 <fizzie> The "eepic" and "pstricks" drivers obviously use those related packages; I'm not quite sure what the plain "latex" does; the "pslatex" driver outputs both a .tex file and a .ps file, draws the graph itself with postscript and does labels and such with LaTeX; and finally the "postscript" driver can of course just generate a regular .eps file for inclusion if you don't care so much.
18:26:29 <fizzie> Of course if you're willing to dabble with xfig, user-friendliness must not be very high on your list of priorities.
18:27:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it end up as vector graphics in a resuling pdf?
18:27:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I'm likely to use inkscape then export to something xfig can import then convert that
18:27:39 <AnMaster> RATHER than using xfig for all of the process
18:28:04 <fizzie> Eeeh... why don't you just go directly from inkscape to something you can include in the LaTeX document?
18:28:18 <fizzie> .eps for latex+dvips+ps2pdf, .pdf for pdflatex.
18:28:22 <AnMaster> anyway since lyx at least can import svg from inkscape directly, it shouldn't be needed, except possibly the fonts will end up fitting better what with is used in the document
18:28:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, fonts for text in the image
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18:29:10 <fizzie> Right, well. I haven't tried xfig's latex-exportation parts.
18:30:18 <fizzie> Anyway, the gnuplot drivers that are explicitly tex-related (latex, eepic, pstricks, pslatex) do the "can do math mode in labels and the fonts match your document" thing.
18:30:36 <AnMaster> is (mathematically speaking) sin(x) = tan(x)cos(x) ?
18:30:48 <AnMaster> I would guess it isn't because tan(x) isn't defined for some values
18:31:16 <AnMaster> if you simplify it symbolically rather than plotting it on a calculator you will get it defined for those values
18:31:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, sounds good. Now to learn gnuplot :P
18:32:05 <AnMaster> as long as it is vector graphics rather than bitmap it should be fine
18:32:55 <AnMaster> evil idea: Plotting sin(1/x) with vector graphics for values between -1 and 1
18:33:56 <fizzie> Generally any plotting tools you might use still end up sampling the function at regular intervals.
18:35:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could plot x^2 as a simple vector graphics curve (whatever that name was, slipped my mind atm).
18:36:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe. Something on B iirc?
18:37:17 <AnMaster> anyway my guess is something like x^2 should be simple to represent as a vector-thingy
18:37:32 <AnMaster> and stuff like 2x+4 would definitely be simple to represent as that
18:37:40 <fizzie> There are all kinds of splines; you can plot x^2 with a simple quadratic spline.
18:39:31 <fizzie> And if you're going to use anything regular (like gnuplot), it will still just sample the function and write a polyline-ish shape with a hundred points in it, instead of trying to find out how to represent the function you're plotting with any fancy "primitives".
18:42:03 <fizzie> Oh, "on B", you mean a Bézier curve?
18:42:57 <fizzie> (Or a Bézier spline, which is just a number of those put together.)
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18:44:55 <fizzie> PostScript primitives are pretty much a line, a cubic Bézier curve and an arc (of a circle).
18:46:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, argh how does one plot in gnuplot
18:47:07 <AnMaster> I can't find any tutorial or such
18:47:19 <fizzie> With the "plot" command.
18:47:36 <fizzie> Results 1 - 10 of about 191,000 for gnuplot tutorial. (0.20 seconds) -- you really should be able to find one.
18:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm was looking on official website
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18:55:25 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/tmp $ head -n2 sin1_x.tex
18:55:25 <AnMaster> \setlength{\unitlength}{0.240900pt}
18:55:25 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/tmp $ file sin1_x.tex
18:55:25 <AnMaster> sin1_x.tex: Bio-Rad .PIC Image File 8229 x 20039, 20565 images in file
18:55:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite a identification failure eh?
18:59:50 <fizzie> 54 leshort 12345 Bio-Rad .PIC Image File
19:00:31 <fizzie> So it looks at byte 54 for little-endian short field with decimal 12345; that's 0x3039; in little-endian order bytes 39, 30; that's ascii "90".
19:01:03 <fizzie> Probably the "90" from "0.240900", that looks like it'd be around byte 54.
19:03:51 <fizzie> Same for the numbers; 8229 => 0x2025 => 25,20 => "% ", 20039 => 0x4e47 => 47,4e => "GN", 20565 => 0x5055 => 55,50 => "UP".
19:04:54 <AnMaster> % GNUPLOT: LaTeX picture with Postscript
19:05:01 <AnMaster> sin1_x.tex: graphviz graph text
19:05:05 <fizzie> # Bio-Rad .PIC is an image format used by microscope control systems
19:05:05 <fizzie> # and related image processing software used by biologists.
19:05:05 <fizzie> See: let a biologist design a file format, and he'll think a suitable magic is to look for "90" in offset 54.
19:05:41 <fizzie> And, well, this is what my magic file has to say about graphviz:
19:05:43 <fizzie> # graphviz: file(1) magic for http://www.graphviz.org/
19:05:44 <fizzie> # FIXME: These patterns match too generally. For example, the first
19:05:44 <fizzie> # line matches a LaTeX file containing the word "graph" (with a {
19:05:44 <fizzie> # following later) and the second line matches this file.
19:05:44 <fizzie> #0 regex/100 [\r\n\t\ ]*graph[\r\n\t\ ]+.*\\{ graphviz graph text
19:05:44 <fizzie> #!:mime text/vnd.graphviz
19:05:46 <fizzie> #0 regex/100 [\r\n\t\ ]*digraph[\r\n\t\ ]+.*\\{ graphviz digraph text
19:05:48 <fizzie> #!:mime text/vnd.graphviz
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19:06:27 <fizzie> They have, in fact, been commented out in this version.
19:14:36 <AnMaster> what would happen if you mounted / on some system A over nfs into /mnt/A on system B. Then mounted / from B into /mnt/B on A?
19:14:52 <AnMaster> does nfs nest at all? even if not cyclic
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19:21:20 <fizzie> I have a feeling it should (I mean, you're free to NFS-export any path even if multiple local filesystems live there), but I guess it's possible people have built in some sanity-checks to avoid that sort of thing.
19:23:29 <fizzie> I know there's some sort of cycle-avoidance thing in bind mounts: http://pastebin.com/m7a3152f6
19:25:53 <fizzie> Or is that just because I didn't use rbind, actually?
19:26:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't load here. just hangs
19:26:30 <AnMaster> but then I always had issues with pastebin.com
19:26:45 <AnMaster> .ca works and so do most others
19:27:03 <fizzie> Yes, it took quite a while to load here too; it did work in the end, though.
19:27:27 <fizzie> Doesn't work differently with --rbind though.
19:27:34 <AnMaster> it used to load faster than all other ones
19:29:45 <fizzie> Well, for the reference, here's the same thing with --rbind and two directories: http://pastebin.ca/1599059
19:31:19 <fizzie> Er, with the exception that I can't umount it now; I did umount d2/d1 first, and now d1/d2 says it's "busy".
19:32:50 <fizzie> Ah, I had to umount d1/d2/d1 manually too, even though it didn't end up in mtab. It seems like with --rbind it copies those mounts, doesn't quite "share" them the way I wanted.
19:33:25 <fizzie> Too late now, since I already umounted it.
19:33:48 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure that's what it'd say, though.
19:33:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, nfs should allow proper cyclic file system mounts though
19:34:16 <AnMaster> assuming there is no detection for it
19:34:56 <fizzie> You can get proper infinitely-deep directories with a filesystem image and a hex editor, too.
19:35:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ sudo mount --rbind /home/fis/d1 /home/fis/d2/d1
19:35:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ sudo mount --rbind /home/fis/d2 /home/fis/d1/d2
19:35:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ cat /proc/mounts | grep 'd[12]'
19:35:08 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg-home /home/fis/d2/d1 ext3 rw,relatime,errors=continue,data=writeback,usrquota,grpquota 0 0
19:35:08 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg-home /home/fis/d1/d2 ext3 rw,relatime,errors=continue,data=writeback,usrquota,grpquota 0 0
19:35:08 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg-home /home/fis/d1/d2/d1 ext3 rw,relatime,errors=continue,data=writeback,usrquota,grpquota 0 0
19:36:24 <fizzie> Funny way of showing bind mounts there.
19:36:48 <fizzie> Gaa, I should be writing my article+slides for tomorrow and not mounting directories all around.
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19:49:15 <ehird> Hello from a new, even crappier keyboard with barely any tactile sense!
19:49:21 <ehird> I am having trouble hitting keys consistently. Ugh.
19:50:07 <ehird> 11:54:41 <zzo38> The 7-zip web-site says it supports unpacking RAR archive, but I downloaded the latest version, and RAR is not supported.
19:50:16 <ehird> It supports rar perfectly, and has for years.
19:51:56 <ehird> Argh, this eybord is really annoying.
19:52:50 <ehird> Put it flat, still hard. Wonder if it's easier.
19:52:57 * ais523 watches the flamewar between Stallman and de Icaza
19:53:00 <ehird> Argh, I think the key sizes are different on this keyboard.
19:53:08 <ehird> Also, I really cant put too muh prsesure
19:53:11 <ehird> FUCK HTIS KE YBOARD
19:53:28 <ehird> I want a fucking PS/2 to USB conevrter and plug in my Model M, which I can actually type on
19:53:37 <ehird> This thing is unusable
19:53:53 <ehird> Know what's funny AnMaster?
19:55:03 <ehird> His mega-uber-joystick is Saitek; he talked about it yesterday.
19:55:06 <Asztal> My P and N keys sometimes don't register unless I really push them (also a Saitek)
19:55:28 <ehird> Mine's an uber-cheapo though.
19:55:49 <Asztal> This one's supposed to be good :(
19:56:29 <ehird> I can't even find this one when googling, heh.
19:56:43 <ehird> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:86UMFLB6jmoJ:www.saitek.com/uk/prod/alumkey.htm+Saitek+slimline&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
19:57:18 <ehird> utterly infuriating
19:57:43 <ehird> I'm not the most error-free typer with my Model M but at least I kno when i've hit a damn key
19:58:15 <Asztal> I had to change my password because it had an n is it, and I never knew if I was typing it right
19:58:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> Know what's funny AnMaster? <ehird> It's Saitek <-- hm?
19:59:01 <Asztal> It only happens about 2% of the time, but it's enough
19:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, never tried a saitek keyboard. Thought you used an apple one?
19:59:54 <ehird> I did, but Bluetooth doesn't work in Ubuntu, so I switched to my crappy-but-usable keyboard.
20:00:01 <ehird> Then I broke that key
20:00:17 <ehird> And could only find one key that fit in a letter slot
20:00:25 <ehird> So, bought this one.
20:00:52 <ehird> The keys are really shallow, but they also just kind of mmph instead of clicking down, thus making typing impossible.
20:00:59 <ehird> And they require a lot of force to put down fully.
20:01:22 <ehird> So yeah, fuck this shit.
20:05:52 <ehird> I should sue them for making this keyboard. Or at least boycott them.
20:08:27 <ehird> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1566 ARE YOU SERIOUS RYAN NORTH? THAT HAPPENED IN 2004 AND I READ ABOUT IT ON WIKIPEDIA JUST DAYS AGO >_<
20:12:10 <ehird> 12:41:57 <Deewiant> (This game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUM_0cp5xgo)
20:12:16 <ehird> Isn't that a derivative of ZZT itself?
20:16:40 <ehird> 08:54:56 <AnMaster> ais523, lets see... I can think of think of: consistent formatting, better math support, good support for citations and such through bibtex, much better line breaking algorithm (two justified margins looks horrible in word), easy to automate stuff with it (auto generating tables from source data or such, sure word has VBA but no one can claim that is easy to use..), and several more
20:16:44 <ehird> VBA is easy to use...
20:16:52 <ehird> easier than writing tex macros at least
20:17:06 <ais523> VBA > OpenOffice scripting last time I tried to use it
20:17:17 <ais523> although, when I need to script OpenOffice nowadays, I just manipulate the XML directly, it's easier
20:17:46 <ehird> OpenOffice is pretty bad
20:17:55 <ehird> AbiWord is nice if you like that sort of thing
20:18:22 <ais523> I use OpenOffice a lot for converting .doc and .xls files
20:18:37 <ais523> I find I rarely actually create word-processed documents nowadays, though
20:18:49 <ehird> AbiWord and Gnumeric can do that without turning your computer into a splash-screen displaying space heater
20:19:52 <ehird> 09:23:07 <AnMaster> btw I found out cfunge bzr needed a later cmake than 2.6... 2.6.3 at least. This is actually due to how the ncurses check is now done after input on it from ehird
20:19:52 <ehird> 09:23:46 <AnMaster> (basically it turns out "if" in cmake before 2.6.3 didn't support parentheses...)
20:19:57 <ehird> you don't need the parens
20:20:03 <ehird> they were just while i was testing
20:25:15 * ehird searches for a Real Fucking Keyboard
20:31:41 <ehird> Okay, Filco FKBN104M/EB or Scorpius M10
20:32:03 <ehird> First is tactlile+non-clicky, second is tactile+clicky but the sound doesn't seem as annoying as most.
20:32:40 <ehird> Argh, the Filco has a fucking glossy Vista logo key.
20:33:43 <ehird> And the Scorpius M10 doesn't.
20:34:30 <ais523> does it hav a super key at all?
20:34:48 <ehird> It has two Windows keys, but no right-click key, I think.
20:35:42 <ehird> Apparently more quieter than the Das Keyboard which is good. Small Windows key, don't care... black matted finish, but you can't get, alas, get smooth mechanical keyboards... $60 shipped to the US... Hmm... A few unfortunate disadvantages.
20:35:49 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5364
20:35:56 <ehird> See "The Bad"... mmph.
20:36:53 <ehird> I don't mind the fewer and smaller rubber pads, nor the lack of gold plating on the USB connector, nor the lack of cable grommet, nor the bigger footprint, nor the imperfections in the plastic casing.
20:37:21 <ehird> And I don't think I mind the print screen/scroll lock/pause/break keys standing taller than the F keys... but
20:37:37 <ehird> # Esc, F2, F5, F6, and F7 keys sit slightly lower on chassis than the other F keys
20:37:37 <ehird> # tilde, 1 and 3 keys sit slightly lower than other keys in same row# Esc, F2, F5, F6, and F7 keys sit slightly lower on chassis than the other F keys
20:37:37 <ehird> # tilde, 1 and 3 keys sit slightly lower than other keys in same row# Esc, F2, F5, F6, and F7 keys sit slightly lower on chassis than the other F keys
20:37:37 <ehird> # tilde, 1 and 3 keys sit slightly lower than other keys in same row
20:37:40 <ehird> # no recessed stepping for the Caps Lock key, or the Num Lock key
20:37:46 <ehird> # some keys feel and sound slightly different than others
20:37:46 <ehird> # doesn't feel quite as sturdy as the M1 and Das, and has more flex
20:38:11 <ehird> Maybe I should just get a Das Keyboard and deal with the noise.
20:40:11 <ehird> Heh, the M10 weighs as much as a MacBook Air
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20:42:23 <ehird> ais523: It does have a right-click key, I think.
20:42:41 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, it's a ZZT derivative, I just didn't know about that until yesterday.
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20:51:01 <ehird> I wish you could buy the Japan-only Happy Hacking keyboards with more keys.
20:51:52 <ehird> Hmm, wait, just a different layout.
20:52:10 <ehird> The Happy Hacking keyboard uses the Caps Lock location for Control, has a tiny Alt key, and a big Windows key.
20:52:17 <ehird> And that's just reeeeeeeetaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrdeeeeeeeeeeeed.
20:57:17 <Deewiant> The defaults don't matter, you can change them
20:57:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes they do because there is no physical control key.
20:58:15 <ehird> I could use the tiny alt key as control and the big windows key as alt, but that'd fucking suck because the control key would be in the uncomfortable Windows key position, and tiny.
20:58:30 <ehird> I never called it a default; you did
20:58:44 <ehird> <ehird> The Happy Hacking keyboard uses the Caps Lock location for Control, has a tiny Alt key, and a big Windows key.
20:58:44 <ehird> <ehird> And that's just reeeeeeeetaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrdeeeeeeeeeeeed.
20:58:44 <ehird> <Deewiant> The defaults don't matter, you can change them
20:59:01 <Deewiant> What I was trying to say was: "what the keys do by default doesn't matter"
20:59:30 <ehird> Yes, but you mistakenly assumed that the reason I rejected it was because of that. :P
20:59:38 <Deewiant> If you have an issue with the keys themselves as opposed to what they do, that's different
20:59:47 <ehird> I meant that, in lieu of having an actual control key, it defaults to using the Caps Lock position for it.
20:59:53 <ehird> A default is part of that complaint, but not the reason for it.
21:00:50 <Deewiant> Even that doesn't clearly say to me that there's no key where the control key typically is :-P (I guess the Windows key is there, by your description?)
21:01:59 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard_Professional_2.jpg
21:02:19 <ehird> Default mapping is the small leftmost/rightmost keys are alt, and the keys next to the space bar are Windows.
21:02:30 <ehird> Fucking bulllllllllshit.
21:02:42 <Deewiant> That's indeed somewhat retarded :-P
21:02:52 <ehird> IIRC some of the previous models, still, IIRC, sold in Japan, have, you know, more keys.
21:06:08 <ehird> Deewiant: From their site: http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/images/lite2_us_layout.gif
21:06:17 <ehird> DID IT OCCUR TO ANYONE TO MAKE THEM BIGGER AND FLUSH WITH THE SHIFT KEYS
21:06:31 <ehird> You know, since you're adding another useless key, Fn.
21:08:11 <ehird> Whee, the Das Keyboard costs 99 eur in, uh, Europe.
21:08:57 <ehird> OHH ENJOYING THAT KEYBOARD ARE YOU, 87 EUR IN THE US, WITH FREE SHIPPING
21:09:02 <ehird> well how about we take our cocks
21:09:13 <ehird> and slap you with them
21:09:19 <ehird> after all this is Europe
21:09:22 <ehird> where we do such things
21:11:56 <ehird> Can anyone get past the road in http://tane.us/?
21:12:02 <ehird> I wonder if there's even anything more.
21:18:47 <Deewiant> YOU FINISHED TANE! YOU ARE GREAT!
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21:21:20 <ehird> I'm going to assume you made that up and this continually serves up new fun every click forever
21:21:43 <ehird> Heh, it changes domain
21:21:59 <ehird> "Click here to download plugin"
21:22:12 <ehird> I'm sure it's delightful
21:22:33 <ehird> ...this one again? (oldtane)
21:22:44 <ehird> oh, it only takes one click now
21:25:42 <ehird> http://www.chickensnack.com/flash/marioq.html
21:28:45 <ehird> http://www.chickensnack.com/flash/enzyte.html
21:30:31 <ehird> http://www.chickensnack.com/flash/fun.html
21:47:28 <ehird> http://www.evoluent.com/kb1.html Did it occur to them that they could just remove the number pad
21:49:04 <ehird> You mean "Patented and additional patents pending".
21:49:14 <ehird> Also, ugh, mushing the arrow keys with those other ones.
21:49:54 <ehird> Just move the printscrn-sysrq/scroll-lock/pause-break/insert/home/pgup/delete/end/pgdwn/arrow keys to the left and drop the number pad!
21:49:55 <Deewiant> And all-important keys like "My Comp" and "Media Player"
21:50:06 <ehird> I open my media player EVERY FEW SECONDS
21:50:20 <ehird> And then put my computer to sleep and wake it up
21:50:47 <ehird> Then I open my email, look at it, switch to my web browser, go backwards and forth a few times, open my Computer, and then SHUT THE COMPUTER OFF.
21:50:54 <ehird> Oh god, they have a Del key right to the left of the space bar.
21:51:29 <oklopol> going back and forth is something i might actually want buttons for, except backspace already does the more useful of those two
21:51:37 <ehird> oklopol: alt-right
21:52:07 <ehird> I gave up my backspace habit and now use alt-left/right.
21:52:07 <oklopol> you really think i have the time
21:52:12 <ehird> oklopol: but you have the time for pointing and clicking?
21:52:43 <oklopol> well it's faster than pointing and clicking, but it isn't as fast as single key would be
21:52:52 <ehird> yes but it's an improvement
21:54:17 <oklopol> i think i'm going to go sort a deck of cards using a binary heap now
21:54:59 <ehird> oklopol: try gnome sort!
21:55:13 <ehird> the former is probably a better idea, in case the latter doesn't terminate
21:55:16 <ehird> THUS EVENTUALLY TERMINATING...
21:56:08 <oklopol> i don't actually follow algorithms strictly enough for gnome sort and insertion sort to have a crucial diff
21:56:38 <ehird> oklopol: do bucket sort with actual buckets
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21:57:31 <ehird> oklopol: how about pigeonhole sort with actual pigeons
21:57:37 <ehird> actual pigeonholes
21:57:41 <ehird> but sure, sort pigeons into them if you want
21:58:03 <ehird> ...timsort with an actual tim peters? :P
21:58:28 <ehird> burstsort... then ACTUALLY BURST
21:58:34 <oklopol> you should do some sort of standup
21:58:38 <ehird> oklopol: also is stupi the same thing as stupid?
21:58:43 <ehird> BECAUSE IF SO THAT IS *FUNNY*
21:58:53 <ehird> oklopol: but, I might
21:59:06 <oklopol> it was like a cool contra(di)ction
21:59:10 <ehird> i'll be here all year
22:03:07 -!- Asztal has joined.
22:03:41 <ehird> HAHAAHQQHQHQA THE TOTAL DELETION OF YOUR FACE
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22:34:03 <ais523> <datapharmer> Care to try a self-eating watermelon?
22:36:10 <ais523> someone replying to a comment wondering about why Slashdot were reporting on a Slashdot post
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22:37:12 <ais523> ugh, why does control-refresh not open the current page in another tab in Firefox?
22:37:51 <ais523> (clearly, I take interface consistency very seriously...)
22:38:01 <ehird> I'm not sure that's inconsistent
22:38:20 <Rugxulo> I was running DOSEMU under x86-64 yesterday 8-)
22:38:30 <ehird> Does that give you 64-bit DOS?
22:38:45 <Rugxulo> just normal DOS (with 16-bit emulated and 32-bit DPMI stuff runs as native)
22:38:55 <ehird> I wonder if you could make 64-bit DOS run the usual programs...
22:39:02 <ehird> just define near = far and you're some part of the way
22:39:17 <Rugxulo> no, 64-bit has no V86 mode, hence you can't run 16-bit stuff at all unless emulated
22:39:35 <ais523> ehird: refresh opens the current page; holding down control causes pages that would open to open in a new tab instead
22:39:40 <ehird> Make the 16-bit stuff works.
22:39:43 <Rugxulo> or unless AMD or Intel add V86 to 64-bit
22:39:46 <ais523> therefore, my reasoning was that control-refresh should open the current page in a new tab
22:40:02 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but Ctrl only applies to opening new links by clicking.
22:40:08 <Rugxulo> that's what DOSEMU does, it translates 16-bit to 64-bit
22:40:15 <ais523> and control applies to more or less everything in the interface
22:40:18 <ais523> the menus, for instance
22:40:27 <ehird> For instance, ctrl-enter adds www. and .com to the start and end in the location field
22:40:29 <ais523> ehird: I commonly refresh pages by following self-links
22:40:40 <ehird> ais523: that's your problem; I don't think this is an inconsistency
22:41:02 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, but it doesn't give them 64-bit pointers, for instance
22:41:12 <Rugxulo> no, DOS progs can't run in 64-bit
22:41:29 <Rugxulo> you'd have to (in theory) have a 64-bit DOS itself or maybe an extender
22:41:55 <ehird> That's what I'm saying
22:42:06 <ehird> And the question is, would most programs work with it?
22:42:22 <ehird> For instance, how many of them pack structures and depend on their sizes?
22:42:44 <Rugxulo> work without recompilation? doubt it
22:43:02 <ais523> it would be more likely to work without than with IMO
22:43:20 <ehird> The question is whether it can be good enough
22:43:29 <ehird> For, you know, critical high-memory DOS usage
22:44:11 <ais523> ehird: do you happen to know what licence Colloquy is under?
22:44:15 <ais523> I can't find it anywhere on their website
22:44:22 <ais523> they claim to be open source, and there's source
22:44:29 <ais523> but no licence statement on the website, no COPYING in the source
22:45:47 <ais523> the issue of GPL iPhone apps came up on the Enigma mailing list
22:45:58 <ais523> someone gave Colloquy as an example of an open-source iPhone app
22:46:07 <ehird> the mobile app != the desktop app, btw
22:46:09 <ais523> and I'm utterly confused at my inability to determine what licence
22:46:17 <ais523> I can't find the licence for either, though
22:46:19 <ehird> and the mobile app isn't open source afaik
22:46:39 <ais523> and there's a link to the source
22:46:52 <ais523> "Open minded and Open source, like it should be."
22:47:19 <ehird> http://colloquy.info/project/wiki/Development%20Guide
22:47:53 <ehird> wiki -> development guide
22:47:56 <ehird> two clicks from source
22:48:00 <ehird> admittedly it should be included
22:48:06 <ais523> I didn't think of checking the wiki
22:48:23 <ais523> also, I think it violates GPL2 to not state the licence in the source
22:48:34 <ais523> well, I was staring at GPL2 for about half an hour, so I'm pretty sure
22:48:37 <ehird> the actual source files
22:48:47 <ehird> many GPL projects don't do that
22:48:58 <ehird> then I agree it's possible
22:49:07 <ais523> it doesn't have to be in the file itself, but you need the COPYING in the distribution, or at least a statement of licence somewhere
22:49:17 <ais523> whereas what they're publishing as "the source" doesn't mention it anywhere obvious
22:49:18 <pikhq> The GPL requires that the license be clearly indicated.
22:49:35 <pikhq> It suggests that you put a notice in the source code.
22:49:35 <ais523> maybe we could edit the wiki to make it BSD?
22:49:41 <ehird> ais523: no, that doesn't work
22:49:48 <ehird> any more as committing a license file saying it's BSD doesn't
22:50:03 <ais523> if it's the only place it's mentioned, it would certainly confuse people, though
22:52:02 <ais523> anyway, my current problem with Enigma is trying to change the title "Once, No More No Less" to be the width of an s less wide
22:53:00 <ais523> because it doesn't currently quite fit on the level summary screen
22:53:02 <ehird> ais523: make it cutesy - either "Once, NoMore NoLess" or "OnceNoMoreNoLess"
22:53:11 <ais523> it's probably best to rephrase
22:53:24 <ehird> ais523: how about "Once"
22:54:04 <ehird> ais523: ==1, !<1, !>1
22:56:37 <ehird> Wince Na-Mar Narless
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23:24:11 <ehird> how is your name pronounced oerjan
23:25:24 <ehird> *in fact add that z back
23:25:25 * oerjan looks up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology
23:26:57 <oerjan> ø, j, n are the correct ipa in fact
23:27:05 <ehird> i don't know ipa :P
23:27:39 <oerjan> r is some variant with rounded upper part
23:27:57 <oerjan> a without the upper tail or whatever it's called
23:28:03 <ehird> omg my | key moved aaaaaaaaaaa
23:28:20 <oerjan> anyway let me look up the names
23:28:32 <oerjan> ø: close-mid front rounded
23:28:43 <ehird> i don't know this stuff :(
23:29:49 <oerjan> r: dental/alveolar flap
23:30:04 <oerjan> (rolled, but just once)
23:30:28 <oerjan> j: palatal approximant. like english y.
23:31:04 <oerjan> a: open back unrounded. something like a in father, but shorter
23:31:56 <oerjan> n: dental/alveolar nasal. pretty much like in english.
23:32:24 <oerjan> the whole word has the second pitch accent
23:33:45 <ehird> i don't know what that is :D
23:33:51 <oerjan> the ø is hard to explain in english
23:33:53 <Asztal> The wikipedia article on pitch accent is all centred for some reason.
23:34:01 <oerjan> maybe closest to u in "fur"
23:34:05 <Asztal> ø is like ö, apparently.
23:34:43 <ehird> I don't know how to roll rs, and I don't know what the second pitch accent is.
23:34:44 <oerjan> i'm not sure you should double that a
23:34:58 <oerjan> it's a fairly short vowel
23:35:04 <ehird> I was expressing the father-ness.
23:35:17 <ehird> So, the whole thing is entirely ... soft until the n?
23:35:36 <ehird> (Vowels are soft, r is soft, things like k aren't, n isn't at the end of a word.)
23:36:00 <oerjan> well i don't know about that
23:36:25 <oerjan> a rolled r is harder than an english one, i'd say, unless hard is some technical term
23:36:57 <oerjan> Asztal: not centered for me
23:37:41 <ehird> oerjan: here's an attempt:
23:37:45 <Asztal> oerjan: OK, it's not for me either now... maybe it was just one of the many strange consequences of incremental reflow
23:37:53 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/hzfbcy/oerjan.wav
23:38:01 <oerjan> ehird: just forget the pitch accent, it varies by dialect anyhow
23:38:17 <ehird> i expected to do badly
23:38:44 <oerjan> my ouch was because i have to find out how to listen to it, not because it's bad (i don't know yet :D)
23:38:53 <ehird> it's just a wav :P
23:39:58 <oerjan> the thing is, every time i try to play something which is not in flash, i get this message to set up windows media player
23:40:30 <oerjan> and every time i chicken out of the menu which seems to essentially ask how much to behave like spyware
23:41:20 <ehird> http://mpc-hc.sourceforge.net/ use it (ignore the shoddy website, it's just an actually-maintained fork of Media Player Classic)
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23:41:40 <ehird> features include not being shit
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23:52:18 * oerjan finally manages to play the file
23:52:55 <oerjan> ok, the r definitely needs work ;D
23:53:11 <oerjan> the rest is surprisingly close
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02:06:28 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/156/ hey, I remember when xkcd was still funny.
02:06:31 <ehird> i thought maybe i was imagining it
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04:45:21 <ehird> FIRST THING SAID FOR TWO HOURS THREE MINUTES
04:45:33 <ehird> *AND THREE MINUTES FOR THAT MATTER OH YES OH YES OH YES INDEED
04:47:13 * oerjan calculates differently
05:26:02 <oerjan> xkcd reaches still new levels of absurdity
05:26:20 <oerjan> though not, i think, of humor
05:30:25 <ehird> hey, xkcd isn't even making a reference
05:30:31 <ehird> it's just a bunch of lines and some text
05:30:43 <ehird> except one reference in the alt text
05:30:49 <ehird> oregon trail! i bet he's been playing that game for months
05:30:54 <ehird> what with the two comics about it
05:31:18 <ehird> PREDICTION OF FORUM THREAD CONTENTS: "GET OUT OF MY HEAD RANDALL" "hahahaha best xkcd ever" "Can I fuck you Randall" "I WISH TO HAVE YOUR BABIES YOU ARE GENIUS"
05:31:36 * ehird wonders what word highlighted pikhq there
05:32:39 <ehird> http://echochamber.me/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46236
05:32:41 <ehird> they're mostly critical
05:32:51 <ehird> [02:32] <pikhq> :)
05:32:55 <ehird> last thing said before me
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05:43:34 <oerjan> which reminds me, is there supposed to be a pun in "Ex-Chat"?
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05:57:00 <oklopol> can i get EgoBot to http pages for me, kinda annoying to go all the way to the other room to reset the modem thingie
05:58:34 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
05:59:08 <oerjan> !echo http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric
05:59:45 <oerjan> oklopol: i conclude that as "yes, but"
06:02:20 <Gregor> You could hack up a script to do it more properly.
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06:05:19 <acloglio> oerjan: artmetic is where you aren't bound by the usual axioms, but make your own rules
06:05:48 <acloglio> also the new xkcd is not absurd, and is definitely a joke. it's just a particularly bad graph joke
06:05:55 -!- acloglio has changed nick to oklofok.
06:06:49 <oklofok> also kinda annoying how mirc chooses completely randomly what nicks to keep as my alternatives
06:07:02 <oklofok> because it always chooses the ones i definitely never want to use again
06:07:13 <oklofok> almost wrote "want" as "onet"
06:07:19 <oerjan> in any case, the sign of a burnt-out man
06:09:01 <oerjan> oklofok: it doesn't just choose the last one that is available?
06:09:14 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:09:21 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklokok.
06:09:31 <oklokok> it has two slots for nicks
06:09:52 <oklokok> let's see if i'm still acloglio when i jump next
06:11:00 <oklokok> i recall once changing my nick like 10 times to make sure some nick isn't reused
06:11:02 <oerjan> it _could_ be complicated by when it saves state
06:11:42 <oklokok> maybe, anyway it seems i should be at the uni, time just flies by when you're crying over bad software
06:12:03 <oerjan> time flies like an arrow
06:14:09 <oerjan> !sfedeesh Recursion is fun. Or is it?
06:14:09 <EgoBot> Recoorseeun is foon. Oor is it? Bork Bork Bork!
06:14:28 <oerjan> !swedish Recursion is fun. Or is it?
06:14:29 <EgoBot> Recoorseeun is foon. Oor is it? Bork Bork Bork!
06:18:53 <oerjan> !swedish Sju skönsjungande sjuksköterskor skötte sjuttiosju sjösjuka sjömän på skeppet Shanghai.
06:18:54 <EgoBot> Sjoo skönsjoongunde-a sjooksköterskur skötte-a sjootteeusjoo sjösjooka sjömän på skeppet Shungheee. Bork Bork Bork!
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06:29:21 <ehird> 21:43:34 <oerjan> which reminds me, is there supposed to be a pun in "Ex-Chat"?
06:29:26 <ehird> default quit message: Ex-Chat
06:32:32 <ehird> anyway I'm back on os x. not sure why
06:32:39 <ehird> font rendering sure is better thouh
06:33:05 <oerjan> reality distortion, probably
06:34:02 <oerjan> secretly reality is distorted every few minutes, but only the schizophrenics are able to notice it
06:34:16 <ehird> mac os x is too darn pretty
06:35:26 <ehird> I'm missing the hold-modifier-and-drag-to-move-window from metacity
06:36:29 * oerjan notices an anvil above, and says nothing
06:37:24 <ehird> i cannot feel a thi-
06:37:25 -!- ehird has quit.
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06:37:55 <ehird> sorry, connection dropped
06:38:07 <ehird> neither words in that sentence are!
06:39:01 <ehird> also, os x has still cracked mouse acceleration way better than other OSs
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06:41:55 <Asztal> Firefox 3.6/3.7 did its own mouse acceleration on windows at one point, then they scrapped it because there might already be mouse drivers doing it.
06:42:06 <Asztal> It makes far more sense for the system to do it :(
06:42:26 <ehird> Firefox... did its own... mouse accel- sorry, what?
06:42:34 <ehird> Windows really is on crack, isn't it?
06:43:29 <Asztal> For big scrolls I use the middle-mouse autoscroll thing, anyway. I kind of like how Firefox does that one, and none of the other browsers do it the same :(
06:43:47 <ehird> That should be done by the OS too!
06:44:06 <ehird> Asztal: So, question. The mouse driver did the delay before a menu opens in NT 4.0, at least.
06:44:08 <Asztal> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=462809 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509651 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513817
06:44:09 <ehird> Does it still handle that?
06:44:42 <Asztal> ehird: It's in a registry entry now, TweakUI (e.g.) has an option to change it.
06:44:57 <ehird> Well, at least that's saner
06:45:02 <Asztal> Most other UI delays are based on that delay time, too
06:45:08 <ehird> But WHY does the mouse driver handle mouse acceleration?
06:46:04 <Asztal> It doesn't *have* to. Some do, apparently. Because Windows doesn't do any of its own.
06:46:27 <ehird> Sure it does... it used to, at least? Right?
06:46:41 <ehird> The MS people as new as 7 can't seriously have never ever studied any mouse ergonomics.
06:47:12 <ehird> Also, gah why don't other OSs do OS X's scroll acceleration?
06:47:37 <ehird> You don't need any headache-inducing smooth scrolling because small movements just go a little bit, but if you flick it you can easily move across the whole document.
06:48:26 <ehird> I'm glad I don't use Firefox on any OS, though... it's clear they want to be an island and don't care about the platform.
06:50:26 * ehird wonders how to make Colloquy inform on every new message.
06:51:09 <ehird> Asztal: say something plz
06:51:51 <Asztal> Mr. Flibble is very cross.
06:52:02 <ehird> Mmph, uses Growl, not the dock icon.
06:52:18 <ehird> But I don't want to bounce it in the dock.
06:53:23 <ehird> I demand you speak!
06:53:47 * Asztal mumbles incoherently instead
06:54:12 <ehird> Ehh... I want a persistent, non-annoying blob so that I know there's messages to read, not a single bounce. :(
06:54:29 <Asztal> "So if we back out the acceleration model, we are left with the problem that Chrome is perceptually twice as fast as us at scrolling"
06:54:50 <ehird> I am so, so glad I do not use Firefox.
06:56:46 <Asztal> Firefox 3.6 includes new features such as not enumerating every single system font before even showing a window.
06:57:05 <Asztal> I don't know how you could stay away, really.
06:57:42 <ehird> Asztal: I do have to wonder why you torture yourself with bad programs on a bad OS. :P
06:59:18 <Asztal> Stupid windows-only games. Bad habit. :P
07:00:24 <ehird> Asztal: I've never understood how non-constant gaming can justify such horror...
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07:04:12 <Asztal> I've adapted to using bad software. I can even use Windows Media Player (!)
07:04:27 <ehird> You know, you've done serious psychological damage to yourself.
07:04:37 <ehird> You might need years of therapy.
07:05:20 <ehird> WTF, with MondoMouse I can't enable Cmd-drag to resize, only Opt-Cmd and move mouse.
07:05:31 <ehird> (or move, which is what I primarily want)
07:08:49 <ehird> http://db.tidbits.com/article/10624 Uhh, wow.
07:09:11 <ehird> Oh, it doesn't do the fun minimise effect promised.
07:09:13 <ehird> How disappointing!
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08:19:27 <Rugxulo> someone in here wrote a Befunge interpreter in sed, right?
08:19:36 * Rugxulo is vaguely curious how that would work, even if input is an issue
08:20:20 <fizzie> I wrote an incomplete one; I'm not sure if someone else wrote a more finished one.
08:22:50 <fizzie> I don't really remember the details, and my home desktop is off now, though. I don't think it did input, but it should be possible: just save all the interpreter "state" in the hold space when encountering ~ or &, and then have the main rules use the hold space to figure out where to continue, and the input for, well, the input.
08:23:39 <fizzie> I seem to think I had a reasonably clever way of manipulating the playfield, or at least to do get(x, y) on it, but I don't recall what that might've been.
08:23:43 <Rugxulo> has it been tested with non-GNU seds? (e.g. *BSD)
08:24:11 <Rugxulo> although in fairness, those are wimpy anyways, so you'd be lucky if it worked
08:25:15 <fizzie> No (as in, "no, it hasn't been tested"). And really, it was *very* incomplete; it was more of a collection of bits of groundwork for a Befunge interpreter.
08:25:50 <fizzie> I think there was a reasonable Brainfuck-in-sed though? Or maybe I'm mixing up with that brainfuck-to-ELF compiler which was written in sed.
08:26:15 <Rugxulo> Brainf***-to-ELF I found, haven't seen an interpreter for that
08:26:24 <Rugxulo> there was an Unlambda interpreter though
08:26:41 <Rugxulo> heh, well sed is kinda the wrong tool for the job (but fun) ;-)
08:27:07 <Rugxulo> Perl is said to be a replacement for AWK and sed, but it goes way way way beyond that
08:27:23 <fizzie> I did some of our "introduction to imperative programming" course homework assignments with sed, for the fun.
08:27:25 <Rugxulo> if mtve was ever here, he could probably elaborate
08:28:26 <Rugxulo> but heck, if even AWK was only designed for one-liners mostly, then you know sed wasn't exactly meant for stuff like this ;-)
08:28:43 <fizzie> Arithmetics are a bit painful, yes. (Except with unary math, but that's a bit... memory-intensive.)
08:30:14 <fizzie> Also function calls. I think in one of the programs I did a rudimentary stack, where you could push return labels on to, with a huge "s///; t foo; s///; t bar;" dispatcher to return.
08:31:24 <fizzie> I had some sort of a hundred-line maybe-not-so-optimal decimal adder in one sed program. It's easier with binary, though; but then you have to either convert that for output, or just have the user read long bitstrings.
08:31:50 <Rugxulo> it's a bit complicated, I know
08:32:05 <Rugxulo> and 'D' never did what I wanted
08:32:57 <fizzie> There's also a lot of "t dummy; : dummy; s///; t foo" style code for branching, since t looks for any successful s instructions since the last t.
08:33:48 <fizzie> Early lunchtime now. →
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08:35:28 <Rugxulo> some seds (GNU? I forget ...) support 'T'
08:37:15 <Rugxulo> can be vaguely useful sometimes
08:40:55 <ehird> should i sleep or internet
08:41:46 <Rugxulo> if you're too tired, just sleep
08:41:52 <Rugxulo> (hard to think when tired anyways)
08:41:54 <ehird> however: internets
08:41:59 <ehird> they require no thought :P
08:42:06 <ehird> (but sleep! but internets! but zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz huh what)
08:53:41 <fizzie> But "T foo" is simply a "t skip; b foo; : skip".
08:54:03 <fizzie> Given the amount of unnecessary verbosity sed imposes by default, that's not much of a hassle to write.
08:55:00 <fizzie> These 03am-written presentation slides make no sense to me, and I'll have to give the presentation in an hour. Well, maybe everyone else will be equally tired.
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08:58:42 <Rugxulo> drink a soda to pep you up
09:00:08 <ehird> i hink that would surpass my meagre abilities
09:00:17 <ehird> sleeping would be smart; i'ma trial it out
09:00:25 <ehird> TRY BEFORE YOU DIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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10:25:38 <oklokok> when i was in the 6th grade or so, i had this habit of saying "in your dreams, motherfucker" to everyone, all the time.
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12:03:36 <fizzie> Wow, that was one popular Master's thesis presentation.
12:03:50 <fizzie> There were something like 30 people there.
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13:24:33 <oklokok> wait didn't you present yours like ages ago
13:25:49 <Deewiant> His was not the only Master's thesis presentation
13:26:43 <oklokok> well he gave *some* presentation
13:27:01 <oklokok> or do you mean the earlier one wasn't his
13:34:31 <oklokok> right k, then i guess it was a coincidence
13:47:40 <fizzie> This one wasn't mine, yes. I just was there to listen, since it was advertised so well.
13:48:09 <fizzie> I just wanted to add that I will present lots of pretty pictures, and
13:48:09 <fizzie> no formulas or boring technical details, so attending my presentation
13:48:09 <fizzie> today is an excellent alternative to actual research work,
13:48:09 <fizzie> administration and most other activities you normally get paid for
13:48:09 <fizzie> around here! (I mean the things you get paid for, not what you
13:48:09 <fizzie> actually do. I don't know if I can compete with the best flash games,
14:06:37 <oklokok> almost makes me book the train tickets even though it's already over
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14:38:17 <Deewiant> (1(00)*1|((0|1(00)*01)(11|10(00)*01)*(0|10(00)*1)))*
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14:55:06 <ais523> my Evolution calendar has reappeared
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15:44:30 <AnMaster> ais523, started coding on the feather implementation?
15:45:12 <ais523> I'm planning to but haven't got around to it
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15:50:42 <ais523> hmm... Feather's the only language I know in which you have to worry about portability within a program
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15:54:40 <ais523> because the interpreter might change beneath you
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18:06:56 <AnMaster> to ehird when he joins: the power supply on my thinkpad turned out to be too weak to both charge the battery and sustain a heavy load (both cores at 95% or more, 3D graphics). It could sustain the load itself (so the battery didn't discharge, but nor did it charge)
18:07:09 <AnMaster> since he was considering a thinkpad he may be interested in this
18:07:34 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, computer bought this year, augusyt
18:07:41 <Rugxulo> or you just mean it can't run and charge at the same time
18:07:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, can't run heavy load and charge it at same time indeed
18:08:14 <Rugxulo> my laptop (6 cell battery) gets max (!) 2 hours, and only then on "Power Saver" :-/
18:08:36 <AnMaster> oh and for reference wlan was turned off while doing this. Was using ethernet
18:09:03 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, mine last 2 hours 50 minutes with light load
18:09:08 <Rugxulo> wifi, usb, etc. all use power, turn off all unnecessary stuff
18:09:22 <AnMaster> bluetooth is almost always off for me
18:09:41 <AnMaster> wlan however I do use quite a bit
18:09:53 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and turning off usb? huh?
18:10:08 <AnMaster> well I can't realistically, since some internal devices show up on the usb bus
18:10:09 <Rugxulo> I mean don't leave unnecessary USB devices plugged in
18:10:15 <AnMaster> for example the bluetooth thingy
18:10:30 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh right, I almost never use any usb devices with it
18:10:42 <AnMaster> exception is sometimes at home when I plug in the printer
18:10:52 <AnMaster> for mouse at home I use desktop + synergy
18:12:17 <Rugxulo> what OS do you use? some are better at power than others
18:13:53 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, on the laptop? Ubuntu x86_64
18:14:04 <AnMaster> because arch didn't work very well
18:14:12 <AnMaster> and I had no time to dig into those issues
18:14:58 <Rugxulo> I tried XUbuntu 8.04.1 the other day, mainly for DOSEMU testing, seemed okay
18:15:09 <Rugxulo> 9.10 will be out soon (this month)
18:16:49 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, how long after that will 9.04 be supported?
18:19:28 * AnMaster is annoyed he has to choose whenever to run that heavy load or get the computer charged for tomorrow (will need it then...)
18:19:44 <Rugxulo> 8.04 is LTS, I think, hence it's still supported
18:19:45 <AnMaster> and the desktop is just a bit too old when it comes to CPU
18:21:48 <Rugxulo> 9.04 should be supported for a while, though, I'd imagine
18:21:59 <Rugxulo> even Fedora is supported until two versions later
18:25:26 <oklokok> AnMaster: that's why nights were invented
18:27:09 <AnMaster> oklokok, except when I get up tomorrow I need to catch the bus very early on. thus having no time to pack my backpack
18:27:26 <Rugxulo> can't bring the plug with you?
18:28:16 <oklokok> you wake up, and start running? i mean if you even put clothes on, the time to throw the comp in the bag will not dominate.
18:28:50 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> can't bring the plug with you? <-- sure, but not the wall socket
18:29:16 <AnMaster> yeah, the house was built *before* laptops were invented and/or common
18:29:21 <oklokok> (technically you probably could take the socket!)
18:29:23 <AnMaster> thus not having a lot of outlets
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18:29:28 <ais523> oklokok: but it wouldn't provide electricity
18:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, it would if I had a 20 km extension cable!
18:30:15 <AnMaster> oklokok, calculating limits is even harder.... *sigh*
18:31:17 <oklokok> anyway that's noobie stuff
18:31:18 <AnMaster> oklokok, the teacher said that was outside the scope of this module (iirc that is the English term)..
18:31:35 <AnMaster> so yeah from standard values and figuring it out.
18:31:54 <AnMaster> oklokok, as in "known basic ones"
18:32:22 <AnMaster> like you know what the trig functions are for pi/2, pi/4 and pi/6 is
18:32:30 <AnMaster> (well the three basic ones that is)
18:33:14 <oklokok> lim_{x->0} (x/x) = lim_{x->0} 1 HEY NOW IT DOESN'T DIVIDE BY X YAY I HAS LIMITS
18:34:04 <oklokok> if you don't do epsilons, you probably don't have a definition for limits, basically you have no idea what you're doing.
18:34:44 <AnMaster> \[\lim_{x\rightarrow\inf}\frac{x-x^{2}}{x^{2}+1}\]
18:35:10 <AnMaster> <oklokok> lim_{x->0} (x/x) = lim_{x->0} 1 HEY NOW IT DOESN'T DIVIDE BY X YAY I HAS LIMITS <-- sounds similar
18:35:59 <oklokok> for (x-x^2)/(1+x^2), without epsilons, you should go HEY THOSE X AND 1 LOOK REALLY SMALL THEY PROBABLY DON'T AFFECT ONCE YOU PUT THE NUMBER INFINITE IN PLACE
18:36:02 <AnMaster> oklokok, also he defined it with epsilon... just said that calculating with that was outside the scope of this module. Would be more of that during this spring iirc.
18:36:40 <AnMaster> oklokok, actually I think you are supposed to somehow get rid of x^2 first
18:36:56 <oklokok> then divide both the denominator and the numerator by something
18:37:01 <AnMaster> by factorising and getting x^(-2) and such
18:37:18 <AnMaster> seems to get the right answer more often too
18:38:56 <AnMaster> though it seems rewriting it as \[\lim_{x\rightarrow\inf}1-\frac{x}{x^{2}+1}\] is simpler. Maybe
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18:39:27 <AnMaster> that needs some more parentheses
18:39:44 <AnMaster> \[\lim_{x\rightarrow\inf}\left(1-\frac{x}{x^{2}+1}\right)\]
18:41:29 <oklokok> one way: (x-x^2)/(1+x^2)-(-1) = (x-x^2+1+x^2)/(1+x^2) = (x+1)/(1+x^2) and notice the bottom is of a greater degree
18:41:48 <oklokok> other way: divide both den and num by x^2, to get stuff like 1+(1/x)
18:42:07 <oklokok> all 1/P(x) clearly go to 0 when degree of P > 0
18:42:59 <AnMaster> oklokok, the issue is, you should get the same answer through both methods
18:43:04 <AnMaster> when you don't, something went wrong
18:43:25 <oklokok> yeah, limits are unique in R
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18:45:03 <oklopol> also what kind of a uni does limits informally
18:45:21 <oklopol> although maybe our dumbed down math does that too, dunno
18:45:32 <oklopol> we have separate courses for the less fortunate
18:45:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on what you are studying
18:45:46 <AnMaster> I mean, math or something else that *uses* math
18:47:06 <oklopol> i understand they might want to skip proofs, but skipping definitions is just plain cheating
18:48:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, also the answer should be that the limit above goes to either + or - infinity, otherwise the answer in the book (which is the oblique asymptote (english term taken from wikipedia, lets hope it is the correct translation) when x→inf wouldn't exist, at least as far as we were told)
18:49:28 <oklopol> the limit is -1, as i said
18:49:57 <oklopol> think about lim_{x->inf} 1, clearly it isn't + or - inf
18:51:12 <oklopol> for each e > 0 you need to find some point in the series after which no deviation > e happens from the limit; the limit is 1, because for any e > 0, the whole sequence stays within (1-e, 1+e)
18:52:41 <oklopol> anyway, believe it or not, i consider game theory harder than your homework problems
19:00:30 <oklopol> hmm, okay pasting from a pdf to pb.vjn.fi doesn't really work that well, but actually this looks roughly as scrambled in the book
19:00:30 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p315154346.txt
19:00:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, ok that is plain unreadable
19:01:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, I thought game theory involved mostly combinatorics and probability and such?
19:01:44 <AnMaster> I can't tell from that pdf though
19:02:11 <oklopol> most of game theory involves games ;)
19:03:02 <oklopol> the book is mostly about different kinds of solutions
19:03:15 <oklopol> solution/equilibrium concepts
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19:03:59 <AnMaster> <oklopol> most of game theory involves games ;) <-- well yeah, but the tools include combinatorics and probability right?
19:04:10 <oklopol> rationalizability is one of the weaker ones, where a move/strategy is created from scratch based on the assumption that all other players are infinitely intelligent, and knowledge about the game
19:05:10 <oklopol> the "infinitely intelligent" part means infinite sequences of sets, the notation gets so goddamn hairy
19:05:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, interpreting that paste may require infinitely intelligence too... So I guess it is intended for those who move in those circles ;P
19:30:40 <fizzie> Hee, I implemented a simplified DEFLATE variant in that rfk86 port. (It does the normal LZ77 encoding, but doesn't use the fancy code-length dual-wielded-Huffman thing to store the trees; and it compresses each -- very short -- message separately, so the compression ratios are a lot less, but that's the price you pay for being able to uncompress each separately without uncompressing the whole data stream. The TI-86 is not an especially fast machine.)
19:31:34 <Deewiant> You should do it in 20 blocks or something
19:31:50 <fizzie> Probably, but that's such a hassle.
19:32:05 <Deewiant> How much space does the current scheme save?
19:33:08 <fizzie> The 86p file (which has few bytes of headers) went from 23685 bytes to 16766 bytes, which is at least something. (Plus that's with an animated exit splash screen added.)
19:33:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Like I said to Deewiant, you don't get a fancy grayscale introduction splash screen with TI-Basic. :p
19:33:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't see you mention that
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19:34:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what does the program do?
19:34:25 <fizzie> It's a robotfindskitten port.
19:34:34 <fizzie> It.. you know, finds kitten.
19:34:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but it doesn't compress *that* much with "real" DEFLATE either.
19:34:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, haven't played that game
19:34:55 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/rfk86$ ./messages.pl
19:34:55 <fizzie> Uncompressed message data: 19454 bytes
19:34:55 <fizzie> LZ77 with trivial encoding: 18708 bytes
19:34:55 <fizzie> LZ77 with Huffman (w/o trees): 11685 bytes
19:34:55 <fizzie> LZ77 with Huffman (raw trees): 12236 bytes
19:34:56 <fizzie> LZ77 with Huffman (no dist tree): 12209 bytes
19:35:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't deflate basically gzip?
19:36:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: The new version is not in the URL I used.
19:36:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, also how would you do grayscale?
19:36:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: But I presume messages.txt is unchanged? That's all I want
19:37:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, right. http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/rfk86/ if I remember right.
19:37:12 <fizzie> I'll put up a "project page" for it at zem.fi when I get that power supply.
19:37:41 <fizzie> 7z a -tgzip -mx=9 does 18866 -> 8963 bytes here to messages.txt.
19:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you do that grayscal!?
19:38:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's done by flickering two frames; the screen response times are so slow it doesn't really look flickery at all.
19:39:48 <fizzie> Typically you stick in an interrupt handler which flips screens so that frame 1 is shown for two timer interrupts, and frame 2 for one; that way you get a nice 4-level greyscale.
19:39:49 <ais523> my first programmable calculator had something like 106 bytes of memory
19:40:12 <fizzie> ais523: The TI-86 has 128K of RAM and a 256K ROM chip. Or thereabouts.
19:40:50 <AnMaster> ais523, 106 bytes for the program to use for data? or 106 bytes for the entire program code?
19:40:53 <fizzie> Though 96K of that RAM is technically speaking used for variables (program- and otherwise), and it would be pretty impolite for the running program to mess that.
19:41:33 <ais523> AnMaster: the data was 27 double-precision floats
19:41:38 <oklopol> in RFK, is the game basically just about solving TSP
19:41:44 <ais523> actually, probably decifloats as it was a calculator
19:41:55 <Rugxulo> 7-Zip uses a custom Deflate, BTW, better than "normal"
19:42:16 <fizzie> Well, it's just a custom deflate *encoder*; it's still the standard stream format.
19:42:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, it makes quite a bit of difference though
19:42:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, no you don't know when you will find the kitten
19:43:34 <fizzie> Yes, and since you don't know that, the shortest path to visit all items is the optimal you can choose.
19:44:20 <fizzie> Anyway, a full DEFLATE decoder theoretically speaking needs to keep up to 32K of the decoded output stream in memory (for backreferences), I don't really have space for that on the TI.
19:44:35 <oklopol> right. i think it is, assuming you want to minimize expected time to find the kitten. not for instance going for a world record.
19:44:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, if deflate == gzip I thought it was seekable?
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19:45:12 <oklopol> what if you have, at distance 10, to the right, one item, and to the left, at distance 20, a hundred items
19:45:15 <fizzie> It's not really seekable, no. Though you can flush the encoder state to generate gzip files that you can seek in, in a limited fashion.
19:45:46 <fizzie> I guess it's not quite TSP, right.
19:45:59 <oklopol> i guess that too, although that probably isn't a counterexample
19:46:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm... pretty sure *.tgz are seekable
19:46:17 <oklopol> because in that case it doesn't matter which way you go first
19:46:31 <oklopol> if tsp gives either way, then it doesn't solve optimally
19:46:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't think you can seek an arbitrary DEFLATE stream.
19:47:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, why would "either way" be invalid? Lets say you have two points + your starting point
19:47:18 <oklopol> i'll ask the algo profs, they usually know this stuff
19:47:23 <AnMaster> they are placed as an equilateral triangle
19:47:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: going right is clearly stupid, because the kitten is probably to the left
19:47:36 <AnMaster> then it shouldn't matter which of those two points you visit first
19:47:55 <oklopol> just one counterexample proves TSP isn't optimal.
19:48:16 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't think you can seek an arbitrary DEFLATE stream. <-- hm ok, maybe it was block based or something
19:48:18 <oklopol> well, that solving TSP doesn't necessarily find an optimal solution to the problem
19:48:36 <Deewiant> nanozip brings messages.txt down to 7281, but I guess that's tricky to implement
19:49:49 <oklopol> a counterexample in which you actually have to go against tsp is when you have this large circle on the border of which you start, and on the opposite side there is a large cluster, tsp is solved by going round, RFK by moving right to the cluster, assuming |cluster| > big
19:50:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anything that involves keeping the whole uncompressed messages.txt in memory (which is what happens for deflate with the 32k sliding window) will be tricky to implement, since there are no contiguous memory ranges big enough.
19:51:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: I already managed to waste 150 bytes of code in the simplified-deflate decoder.
19:54:27 <fizzie> No, but it doesn't sound any simpler either. I seems vaguely bzip2-related; at least BWT is mentioned there.
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19:58:36 <Rugxulo> no, NanoZip is something complex, maybe even context mixing
19:58:42 <Rugxulo> see Encode.ru/forum/ (I don't remember the details)
20:07:54 <Deewiant> I'm annoyed that I got the best result on pretty much my first try (nanozip)
20:08:17 <Deewiant> 15 programs later and this is the only one that even gets close :-P
20:10:03 <Rugxulo> context mixing is pretty powerful
20:14:16 <Rugxulo> and BTW, PAQ8L by default uses -5 (lots of RAM, slow)
20:14:56 <Deewiant> Or that's what it claimed, I didn't check.
20:16:34 -!- ehird has joined.
20:17:50 <Rugxulo> latest fork of PAQ8 is PAQ8px
20:18:11 <Rugxulo> original author (Matt Mahoney) is more focused on ZPAQv1, though
20:18:23 <Rugxulo> (which ain't as good but less likely to break upon updates)
20:19:53 <Deewiant> paq8px -6 and up does 7264! Yay!
20:21:05 <Rugxulo> can't remember, it might also support -mx6 (or -m6)
20:21:23 <Rugxulo> not sure if that is default or not with -6, but I know it isn't active in lower (I think??)
20:21:33 <Deewiant> Oh, -9 isn't actually a supported flag, that'd explain it
20:23:29 <Rugxulo> maybe I'm thinking of paq8q (which isn't as good I think, mostly an uber-experimental port, testbed for better UTF-8 handling)
20:23:45 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:24:02 <Deewiant> CCMX doesn't even come close at 8708
20:24:57 <Rugxulo> see http://www.mattmahoney.net/dc/text.html
20:26:17 <Rugxulo> that should keep you busy :-)
20:27:26 <Deewiant> I was seeing http://www.maximumcompression.com/data/text.php
20:29:48 <Deewiant> Although that one pointed out durilca's -t switch
20:30:38 <Rugxulo> www.uclc.info might also be useful
20:31:00 <Deewiant> Less than a third of the original
20:45:13 <fizzie> I don't suppose any of those methods would create something I could easily extract specific bytes from, with the added restrictions that (1) they shouldn't really use more than a kilobyte or two of working memory, (2) the code shouldn't take much more space than my 150-byte deflate decoder, and (3) it would be something I could cobble together with my very shaky z80 asm skills in a day or two?
20:45:49 <Deewiant> For (1), I think these all use at least 30 megs or so
20:46:43 <Deewiant> bzip2 -1 manages 8467 which might be doable
20:48:18 <ehird> Hi there from scissor-switch keyboardism.
20:49:57 <ehird> It's a Cherry. I gather it should be good, then.
20:50:12 <ehird> Admittedly it feels quite satisfying to press a key, but I seem to be making errors.
20:51:05 <Rugxulo> I think bzip2 -s is "small" (-2 slowly)
20:51:15 <ehird> Same thing, surely?
20:51:33 <Rugxulo> paq8f -1 uses 21 MB (except on .JPG), I think, that's the least I know of offhand
20:51:46 <Rugxulo> lpaq5 (?) and less can use 6 MB minimum
20:51:53 <Deewiant> I just said -1 since -1 and -9 give the same result, and -1 presumably uses the least memory
20:52:18 <Rugxulo> for files < 900k it's the same, the author refuses to check filesize, assumes -9 by default
20:52:41 <Deewiant> Oh right, it's just the block size
20:53:18 <Rugxulo> -s "uses less memory (at most 2500k)"
20:53:57 <Deewiant> DURILCA completes too fast to be able to measure its memory usage
20:54:00 <ehird> I like how the modifier keys being too big is causing me troubles.
20:54:13 <ais523> ehird: you're trying out a new keyboard?
20:54:13 <ehird> Ooh, that capslock LED is fancy.
20:54:15 <ais523> or actually bought one?
20:54:28 <Deewiant> It does have a "use N MB memory" setting but it doesn't seem to do much
20:54:40 <ehird> ais523: This is in the possession of me, yes; I couldn't bear that Saitek one another second.
20:54:47 <Deewiant> Well, with -m2048 it says "out of memory", which I doubt is correct
20:54:58 <ehird> It's Cherry, which make all those mechanical keyswitches, so I guuess it's high quality.
20:54:58 <ais523> ehird: did you have it before, or have you just obtained it?
20:55:07 <ehird> Although that non-typed duplicated u makes me suspicious.
20:55:15 <ehird> It's scissor-switch; what they put in laptop keyboards.
20:55:21 <ehird> Deewiant: It's not a mechanical one, alas.
20:55:35 <Deewiant> Yes, that's the third time you've stated that
20:55:41 <Deewiant> Which keyboard model, not switch model
20:55:48 <ehird> http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/Desktop/G85-23100/index.htm
20:56:19 <ehird> I would love to know the difference.
20:56:23 <Deewiant> Maybe I misremembered what ML are.
20:56:55 <ehird> ehird: It's Cherry, which make all those mechanical keyswitches, so I guuess it's high quality.
20:57:17 <ehird> I must admit, this thing is uber-sleek.
20:57:23 <Rugxulo> hmmm, pic is of a German one??
20:57:32 <ehird> Like a MacBook Air, but heavier and it only does typing!
20:57:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Six discreet ones at thhe very top.
20:57:52 <ehird> Hey, I like changing my volume with a key.
20:58:00 <ais523> why do people advertise plug & play on keyboards
20:58:03 <ais523> are there any that /don't/ do that?
20:58:05 <ehird> The media keys fail to be scissor-switch.
20:58:16 <ehird> I think this duplication might be that my OS is set to repeat too quickly for this kb.
20:58:34 <ehird> I think very fast typing is lagging it, but is that just the placebo effect? I think it is.
20:58:47 <ais523> also, I like media keys
20:58:48 <Deewiant> Or the keys are just chattering, in which case you should get it repaired or replaced.
20:58:51 <ais523> I use them to control media players
20:58:52 <ehird> Fun fact: If you double-click a word to highlight it in OS X, then hit delete, it deletes one of the adjacent spaces too.
20:59:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I think it seems fine.
20:59:14 <ais523> (it could make a difference in a word processed or rich-text app)
20:59:26 <ais523> (or if one of them was an unusual width)
20:59:34 <ehird> No, it only does " " I think.
20:59:37 <ehird> <Rugxulo> hmmm, pic is of a German one??
20:59:45 <ehird> Cherry are a German company; it was like that on the box, too, which worried me a bit.
21:00:09 <ehird> Well, I seem to be typing quickly with this, so as soon as I get used to the sizes and positions of the relevant keys I should be happy.
21:00:16 <Deewiant> Isn't the German layout keywise identical to UK?
21:00:27 <ais523> why are Z and Y the other way round on German keyboards?
21:00:31 <ehird> Also, control, insert, home, etc all have different labels, which would be annoying.
21:00:33 <ais523> it seems kind-of weird to swap just two keys
21:00:45 <ehird> But I like my labels to be correct if I have any labels.
21:00:47 <oklopol> ais523: perhaps because they use z, but not y?
21:00:52 <ehird> ais523: Supposedly it makes typing faster, but it doesn't really.
21:00:53 <Rugxulo> ehird, yeah, they don't typically speak English ;-)
21:00:59 <ehird> And making QWERTY faster: laughable!
21:00:59 <Rugxulo> "strg" -> "ctrl" (I think)
21:01:02 <ais523> oklopol: but QWERTY was originally designed to be slow...
21:01:10 <Deewiant> ais523: Because Z is more common than Y, especially next to T.
21:01:12 <ehird> It's like... strong C.
21:01:15 <ehird> I am commanding you to exit.
21:01:17 <ais523> I'm not sure it actually is slow, though
21:01:19 <oklopol> ais523: so you should pessimize it further?
21:01:28 <ais523> oklopol: there's no reason to pessimize it nowadays
21:01:29 <ehird> Deewiant: But the position where Y is in QWERTY isn't convenient to press at all.
21:01:30 <oklopol> i'm not sure i follow your logic
21:01:31 <Rugxulo> meant to be slow so the typewriters wouldn't jam
21:01:39 <ehird> Optimising QWERTY isn't that simple... you have to basically rewrite it.
21:01:39 <Rugxulo> Dvorak is faster (allegedly)
21:01:41 <ais523> although, I suppose german typewriters could have been pessimized
21:01:56 <Deewiant> ehird: I agree, but that's the argument.
21:01:56 <ehird> Rugxulo: Dvorak is faster, slightly. More importantly, it causes a lot less hand strain.
21:02:10 <fizzie> If that explains QWERTZ, what's the reason for AZERTY?
21:02:19 <Rugxulo> but unless you never have to use any other keyboard (as if), it kills your QWERTY skills
21:02:23 <oklopol> who cares where each letter is, when the whole keys are scattered completely randomly anyway
21:02:27 <ehird> Rugxulo: Totally wrong.
21:02:38 <Rugxulo> although the fastest typer in the world (recently deceased woman) used Dvorak to get like 220 wpm !!
21:02:43 <ehird> Rugxulo: That's FUD, etc.
21:02:56 <Rugxulo> FUD! TROLL! STRAWMAN! EEE!
21:02:57 <ehird> Learning Dvorak doesn't kill your QWERTY touchtyping; not typing in QWERTY kills your touchtyping.
21:03:10 <ehird> So, yeah, if you switch totally to Dvorak and only use it for months ou
21:03:23 <fizzie> AZERTY's the French-speaking layout, it swaps Q/A and Z/W w.r.t. QWERTY.
21:03:38 <Rugxulo> it's not that it's that big a deal, just you have to carry around your own keyboard or hope they support Dvorak layout in the OS (or whatever)
21:03:39 <ehird> And if QWERTY touchtyping matters, i.e. you have to use keyboards that aren't yours regularly, then it won't happen.
21:03:54 <ehird> So if such a situation is common like carrying around your keyboard would seem to imply...
21:03:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: I meant, I don't know the reasoning behind AZERTY.
21:03:59 <ehird> Then it won't actually be needed.
21:04:13 <Rugxulo> oh, and BTW, I think certain apps (e.g. vi) are impossible to use under Dvorak
21:04:53 <ehird> Vi isn't exactly ergonomic with its key placement, as far as I know.
21:04:56 <ais523> Rugxulo: some people play NetHack with the vi layour under Dvorak
21:05:02 <ehird> I don't know that it prefers the home row for common operations. Take a look at where i is.
21:05:13 <ais523> ehird: hjkl are pretty ergonomic for moving around
21:05:14 <ehird> Admittedly, hjkl suffer, but those are totally unintuitive to start with.
21:05:19 <Deewiant> i isn't a common operation :-P
21:05:25 <ais523> I suppose you could say that less is hurt under Dvorak
21:05:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Err, sure it is?
21:05:37 <Deewiant> But on Colemak it's on the home row anyway, so shrug.
21:05:52 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
21:06:16 <Deewiant> ehird: Not very common compared to some others IMO.
21:06:33 <ehird> But what do f and j do?
21:06:36 <Deewiant> I, at least, often use c/s/a/i/o to get into insert mode.
21:06:38 <ehird> Well, j is a moving operation.
21:06:45 <ehird> That prime key is totally wasted.
21:06:54 <ehird> I don't even know what it does, but it probably isn't common.
21:06:54 <Rugxulo> f goes to the first occurance of letter specified
21:06:55 <Deewiant> fX -> find next X on the current line
21:07:12 <ehird> Yeah; why is that on one of the two easiest QWERTY keys to press?
21:07:14 <Deewiant> t is the same thing but it goes to just before that letter.
21:07:23 <ehird> In conclusion, apart from hjkl, using Dvorak for vi won't change a thing.
21:08:00 <Rugxulo> I can't imagine typing 200 wpm, even in Dvorak
21:08:14 <ais523> now I want to change vi's UI to be more like NetHack
21:08:15 <Deewiant> I use Colemak and move 8 keys around, I think
21:08:24 <ais523> you could have tX to do just before that lteter
21:08:35 <ehird> Rugxulo: I can type 100 wpm in QWERTY with a decent rubber dome keyboard.
21:08:36 <ais523> and f to go to just before whatever letter you had quivered
21:08:56 <ehird> I can imagine typing 200 wpm, I just don't care to. Diminishing returns. I don't think at 100 wpm, so I usually end up typing slower than that.
21:09:15 <ehird> I want to switch to Dvorak for the easier and less straining typing, though.
21:09:27 <ais523> ehird: what if you were retyping a printed document, for some reason?
21:09:28 <Rugxulo> well, the lady I mentioned was a former secretary, so I guess it was more important for her job
21:09:32 <Deewiant> Essentially because I use JKDF for navigation instead of HJKL and the rest is shuffling around to get back NEFT which were overwritten
21:09:52 <ehird> ais523: I can't hold a whole document in memory; not even a whole paragraph.
21:10:05 <ais523> ehird: you're meant to read the document and type as you read
21:10:07 <ehird> The latency introduced by having to look at a passage means that any typing over, oh, 50 wpm is fine.
21:10:10 <ais523> rather than looking at the screen or keyboard
21:10:19 <ehird> ais523: Well, yes. I mean that,
21:10:29 <ais523> ah, you don't read at 200wpm
21:10:30 <ehird> I can't stream out typing as fast as I look at the letters.
21:10:45 <ehird> I have to recognise a letter, which I can do instantly, but not while concentrating on typing another leetter.
21:10:48 <ehird> *letter (uhhhh ohhhh)
21:11:20 <ais523> you have to concentrate to type letters?
21:11:23 <ehird> Admittedly, I can retype at about the speed I type out normal sentences, so it doesn't matter.
21:11:27 <ehird> ais523: Subconsciously, sure.
21:12:03 -!- Ilari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:12:56 -!- Ilari has joined.
21:13:11 <Rugxulo> 104 keys, aren't most Win keyboards 105? what does it miss?
21:13:36 <ehird> ESC, F1-F12, prt sc/sys rq, scroll, pause/break.
21:13:47 <ehird> `, 1-0, -, =, backspace
21:13:57 <ehird> tab, (letters), [, ], enter
21:14:07 <ehird> caps, letters, ; ' \
21:14:11 <ehird> caps, letters, ;, ', \
21:14:26 <ehird> shift, §, leltters, ,, ., /, shift
21:14:34 <ehird> control, windows, alt, space, alt gr, windows, menu, control
21:14:39 <ehird> insert, home, pageup, delete, end, pagedown
21:14:41 <ehird> up, down, left, right
21:14:51 <ehird> num, /, asterisk, -, 7 8 9 +
21:15:02 <Deewiant> 104 is the standard US layout with Windows keys, 105 the standard European, 109 the standard Asian
21:15:13 <ehird> This is the US layout; $.
21:15:23 <ehird> What does the European layout add?
21:15:43 <ehird> This is the European layout.
21:15:49 <ehird> I have a pound key on my 3 key, not a #.
21:15:51 <Deewiant> A non-letter next to left shift
21:15:58 <Ilari> AFAIK, the same thing as what does 102-key keyboard add to 101-key keyboard.
21:16:04 <ehird> Um, yes, I have that.
21:16:19 <ehird> It's marked broken-| on top, \ on bottom.
21:16:21 <Deewiant> So it's not the US layout, and probably 105-key.
21:16:35 <ehird> I much, much, much prefer the US layout where the enter key is as big as backspace and only takes up one row.
21:16:39 <ais523> ehird: where are " and @?
21:16:42 <ehird> And the | \ key is above enter.
21:17:01 <ehird> ais523: In my OS? shift-2 and shift-second key after l.
21:17:17 <Deewiant> I much prefer the inverted-L enter key
21:17:23 <ehird> ais523: In my OS? shift-second key after l and shift-2
21:17:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:17:30 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
21:17:35 <ehird> On my keyboard? Shift-2 and shift-second key after l
21:17:40 <ehird> Deewiant: You are of the devil.
21:17:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out).
21:17:48 <Rugxulo> so shift-3 is pound but shift-4 is what? '$' ?
21:17:56 <Deewiant> I always hit the \ key on US layouts when I want to press enter
21:17:58 <ehird> Shift-3 is # for me.
21:17:59 <fizzie> I prefer the inverted-L enter too; we are both of the devil, then.
21:18:02 <ais523> ehird: sounds like a mix of US and UK, then
21:18:03 <ehird> On the keyboard it's pound.
21:18:18 <ehird> Option-3 is £ in OS X.
21:18:22 <ais523> hmm... shift-2 is @ in your OS?
21:18:24 * Rugxulo doesn't remember inverted L being the mark of the beast
21:18:29 <ehird> ais523: No, it'ss the US layout on my OS
21:18:32 <ehird> FUCK THESE REPEATING KEYS
21:18:39 <ais523> you seem to have a UK keyboard layout
21:18:49 <ehird> I'm turning off key repeat and seeing if it sstill happens.
21:18:53 <ehird> If it does, fuck this keyboard with a rake.
21:19:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Seriously, see if you can repeat it by pressing just one button slowly
21:19:15 <fizzie> The iBook OS X Finnish layout is quite a lot different than the Windows/Linux Finnish one, when it comes to things like \ and |.
21:19:15 <ehird> Hello, I am typing and hoping this shit doesn't happen because if it does awesomeness is great and nice.
21:19:25 <ehird> I have no key repeating in my OS, and I am going to prove that it is my OS's settings.
21:19:37 <ehird> Tra la la shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit bugger fuck maybe profaanities will--
21:19:47 <ehird> Anyone know how to return a keyboard to cherry?
21:20:00 <ehird> Rugxulo: Yeeessssssssss..................
21:20:07 <Deewiant> Contact a customer service rep
21:20:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Profane nanites.
21:20:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Interact?! With... HUMANS?!
21:20:26 <Rugxulo> press Strg-Alt-SysReq R E I S U B
21:20:31 <Deewiant> Well, unless they have a standard return form or whatever
21:20:35 <Deewiant> Did you order it directly from them?
21:20:45 <ehird> ais523: German ctrl.
21:20:50 <Rugxulo> then Turbo + Macro + grey plus + altNumLock
21:20:52 <ehird> On the box it says strg because cherry are german,.
21:21:03 <ehird> I wonder if I could make some sort of evil keyboard driver that cancels out two identical keys in quick succession.
21:21:18 <ais523> ehird: Windows comes with an accessibility tool to do that, I think
21:21:21 <ehird> That would be the Trrue Hackeerly Solution(TM).
21:21:22 <Rugxulo> it's probably your OS, then, maybe you type too fast
21:21:24 <ehird> Wow, twice in one message.
21:21:27 <ehird> Rugxulo: No, it isn't.
21:21:30 <ehird> I disabled key repeating.
21:21:41 <Deewiant> Amazon might have something for returns
21:22:15 <Rugxulo> maybe you're just pressing too hard, not used to such sensitivity yet
21:22:41 <ais523> ehird: in Ubuntu, it's Preferences | Assistive Technologies | Keyboard Accessibility | Ignore fast duplicate keypresses
21:22:44 <Deewiant> If it happens with /every/ key then probably that
21:23:03 <ais523> although annoyingly, if you type, say, "exe" in it, it'll disregard the second e if it's too soon after the first e
21:23:11 <ais523> presumably you'd need to set it to a very short timeout, the way you type
21:23:13 <ehird> Rugxulo: I DISABLED KEY REPEAT IN MY OS
21:23:15 <ehird> and it still happened
21:23:19 <ehird> No key repeat = hold key, only types once.
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21:23:36 <ehird> I know for a fact I'm not tapping, releasing and tapping again because it makes a click and requires quite a bit of pressure to do that.
21:23:38 <ehird> It is the keyboard.
21:24:12 <ehird> I''m glad yoou're ssory.
21:24:47 <Deewiant> Actuation is after the tactile point, then?
21:24:51 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=ignore+repeated+duplicate+key+presses+os+x&aq=f&oq=&aqi= ;; hmph
21:25:10 <ehird> As soon as the depress and tick happens, the key sends.
21:25:24 <Rugxulo> wow, two pounds thick, that's heavy
21:25:25 <Deewiant> I.e. you're sure it doesn't send the key before the click
21:25:34 <ehird> Well, it doesn't click; the clicking is it batting the frame.
21:25:43 <ehird> Rugxulo: It is indeed heavy.
21:25:47 <ehird> However, it's very thin.
21:25:51 <ehird> Even with the keys.
21:25:54 <Rugxulo> some netbooks are barely that heavy
21:26:01 <ehird> Most netbooks are about 1 pound.
21:26:14 <ehird> (I don't count the low-voltage proper-CPU craptops as neetbboos.)
21:26:20 <ehird> (^ legit errors, btw)
21:26:35 <ehird> Rugxulo: The MacBook Air, which is a full notebook albeit a little underpowererd, weighs 3 pounds.
21:26:52 <Rugxulo> no optical drive though, right?
21:26:53 <ehird> I'm preparing to throw this thing out of the window.
21:26:58 <ehird> I never use the optical drive.
21:27:05 <Rugxulo> just saying, that's part of the reason
21:27:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: Actually, the optical drive was omitted for thinness reasons.
21:27:20 <ehird> They only weigh, like, 200-400 grams.
21:27:27 <Rugxulo> your keyboard has a 3 yr warranty, so don't throw it out just yet
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21:27:50 <Deewiant> ehird: II've used a keyboard which rrepeats for the passt few weeksss and you don't ssese me complaining eveen though it'ss a pain in the butt at times :-P
21:28:04 <Deewiant> (I did order a new one, though)
21:28:18 <ehird> Maybe I should buy one of those fancy ThinkPad USB keyboards.
21:28:23 <ehird> They even come with the TrackPoint.
21:28:48 <ehird> These flat keys do seem to be straining my hands less than the deeper fare.
21:29:37 <Rugxulo> BTW, only operates up to 40 C (104 F), what happens then? melts???
21:29:52 <ehird> The circuitry stops functioning?
21:29:57 <ehird> Ooh, captain obvious to the rescue!
21:30:32 <Rugxulo> 104 F isn't that rare, but I guess the keyboard itself being that hot would be unlikely (Iraqi desert? Las Vegas?)
21:30:53 <ehird> For me, 30 C is unbearably hot.
21:31:00 <FireFly> 40°C sounds pretty hot, yeah
21:31:10 <FireFly> ~30-35 is normal summer for me
21:31:47 <ehird> The opposite of brr./
21:31:48 <Rugxulo> it's 30 C outside here now (86 F)
21:31:55 <ais523> wow, Debian/kFreeBSD now has first-class status in there (severe bugs there are considered release blockers)
21:31:57 <Rugxulo> of course, I'm inside with a/c on
21:32:08 <ehird> I like ~23C summers, ~17C normals.
21:32:27 <ehird> 0 makes me want to die.
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21:32:28 <Rugxulo> ehird, you're used to colder weather than I am, I'd bet
21:32:36 <FireFly> ehird, you wouldn't like a swedish winter
21:32:38 <ehird> I live in Britain, so pretty much yes by definition.
21:32:54 <ehird> FireFly: In Britain we have this thing called central heating
21:33:31 <ehird> <FireFly> Clothes are overrated
21:33:43 <ehird> <FireFly> I just go out in the minus-celsius weather naked
21:33:44 <fizzie> It's been oscillating between 0 and 10 degrees Celsius around here last week.
21:33:51 <ehird> <FireFly> A BIT CHILLY BUT OH WELL
21:33:51 <Deewiant> It's around 8°C out there right now
21:34:00 <Rugxulo> Swedish women can go topless in public pools now
21:34:22 <ehird> I don't want to know why Rugxulo knows that.
21:34:53 <FireFly> My point was, I don't think they can?
21:35:05 <fizzie> "Current temperature at Otaniemi: 8.50 °C". I still look at the weather there at the university campus, since the address is so memorable ("outside.hut.fi").
21:35:23 <Deewiant> http://www.thefuckingweather.com/
21:35:52 * ehird WANTS FUCKING CELSIUS
21:35:58 <FireFly> I take it that's not celsius :P
21:35:58 <ehird> I AM NOT IN FUCKING ROCHESTER, NY
21:36:07 <ehird> There's a FUCKING CHECK BUTTON
21:36:11 <Deewiant> FireFly: Check "I WANT FUCKING CELSIUS"
21:36:21 <Deewiant> That's about 8 degrees, I guess.
21:36:29 <fizzie> 7°?! But it's still "alright".
21:36:31 <ehird> ITS FUCKING ....ALRIGHT
21:36:31 <ehird> I've seen better days
21:36:52 <ehird> I have the window open. Maybe I'm a cold cyborg.
21:36:55 <Deewiant> For 5-20 or so I think it says alright
21:37:02 <ehird> THE FUCKING FORECAST
21:37:03 <ehird> FORECAST:Partly CloudyPartly Cloudy
21:37:08 <ehird> In England our forecasts are so interesting.
21:37:17 <fizzie> Dubai, AE: "30°?! ITS FUCKING HOT" and then in a very tiny font: "So hot my dog developed sweat glands."
21:37:56 <Deewiant> ehird: 'Bout the same as here, then.
21:38:40 <fizzie> "Showers Early; Partly Cloudy". It's not exactly identical, but it's not much more interesting either.
21:38:41 * ehird has a reddit debate: <person> "I think foo." <me> "Physics disagrees." "Sure, but I think foo." "Physics disagrees."
21:39:32 <Deewiant> ( http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9rel6/i_am_a_cryonicist_when_i_die_i_will_be/c0e3j9l )
21:39:48 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9rel6/i_am_a_cryonicist_when_i_die_i_will_be/c0e3p6y
21:39:51 <ehird> Relevant, more concise summary.
21:40:09 <pikhq> ehird: Ah, Internet debate.
21:40:23 <ehird> "Yes, I know *physics* says that, but I never consented to physics!|
21:41:26 <Deewiant> ehird: FWIW that's a religious topic, physics says nothing.
21:41:59 <ehird> I am operating under the assumption of materialism
21:42:03 <Deewiant> You can't know whether it'll be "just like you were unconscious through the suspension".
21:42:19 <ehird> Yes, you can; your neurons didn't fire, then they fired again.
21:42:23 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, I'd state that assumption.
21:42:47 <pikhq> "X." "Y!" "X!" "YY!" "XXXX ZOMG!"
21:42:50 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't generally state "hurr! I am not operating on the assumption of supernatural bullshit!", but sure, if it goes for another cycle.
21:42:57 <pikhq> ^ Internet debate.
21:43:28 <Deewiant> ehird: The topic /is/ supernatural bullshit. "I just feel like I am the constant flow of energy in my brain."
21:44:01 <Pthing> "Yes, a continuous stream is how we feel, but this contradicts physics." is too, for that matter
21:44:05 <ehird> Deewiant: I interpreted that as meaning the electrical impulses.
21:44:05 <Deewiant> "I feel like <poorly defined concept>" is not really something you can argue with
21:44:12 <ehird> I guess interpreting it as retarded bullshit makes more sense.
21:44:43 <Deewiant> "I feel <foo>" is also not really something you can argue with.
21:45:44 <ehird> Well, they said think, not feel./
21:46:58 <ehird> Presumably his New Age feelings turned into rational, coherent thought by the second post!
21:47:33 <Deewiant> Or presumably he didn't want to say "feel" twice in a row so he said "think" the second time instead.
21:53:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: Have you taken any of the compiler courses, by any chance?
22:00:04 <ehird> So, conditional endorsement for the Cherry Stream XT keyboard: if all of them repeat keys like this, stay away. If they don't, this is one kinda fine keyboard.
22:00:54 <Deewiant> "If they all suck, they all suck. If not, all except the ones that suck are good."
22:00:59 <ehird> Also: Could do with less having a numberpad!
22:01:02 <ehird> Deewiant: EXACTLY.
22:01:16 <ehird> Actually I'm happy with this, it's only occasionally annoying! Well actually quite often, but it hasn't happened once while typing this sentence!
22:01:25 <Asztal> My keyboard used to repeat and drop Es too. (As well as dropping N and P.)
22:01:39 <olsner> my keyboard drops nothing!
22:01:50 <ehird> My keyboard drops your mom
22:02:00 <Deewiant> At first only one key chattered, then steadily more and more.
22:02:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't you use one of those expensive mechanical keyboards
22:02:21 <olsner> this keyboard only gets better with time - especially if you compare it to newly produced keyboards
22:02:49 <ehird> Buckling spring sux.
22:02:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Actually quite cheap, but yeah :-P
22:02:57 <olsner> nah, buckling spring awesome
22:03:06 <ehird> Mechanical keyswitches, sure.
22:03:10 <ehird> Buckling spring noooooooooooooooooooooo
22:03:16 <ehird> Deewiant: You probably class cheap keyboard = <$1,000 :P
22:03:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: I've done one, but they've been rearranging those around a lot, or so I believe.
22:03:44 <olsner> Deewiant: what's wrong with the layout?
22:03:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Why did you buy a keyboard from Japan?
22:03:55 <ehird> Anyway, that's expensive. :P
22:04:05 <Deewiant> That was cheap; the ass was in the shipping
22:04:12 <Ilari> Very rare keyboard: 122-key Model M (yes, those exist).
22:04:15 <ehird> Admittedly the das keyboard is rather more, at 12,895 yen in Europe.
22:04:34 <olsner> Ilari: 122? is that one of the terminal keyboards?
22:04:39 <ehird> http://www.recycledgoods.com/zoom_s_p_20604_1.jpg.ashx
22:04:43 <Deewiant> Of course I tried to send it back for repairs, which only improved the situation for a short time and also cost a shatload due to back-and-forth shipping :-P
22:04:43 <ehird> look at that + formation
22:04:50 <ehird> look at all of those useless keys!
22:05:25 <Deewiant> Mostly the US-type enter that you find on most buckling spring boards annoys me.
22:05:41 <Deewiant> ehird: From Japan because it's approximately the only place with acceptable keyboards.
22:06:00 <olsner> mine has a large (upside-down-L) enter key
22:06:02 <Deewiant> Korea is maybe another, haven't looked into it.
22:06:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm curious now as to what it was.
22:06:20 <ehird> Unicomp, Das Keyboard, ... all of those are sold in, well, not-Japan. All I can think of is the Happy Hacking keyboard, which you've dissed.
22:06:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: I've done "T-106.550 Ohjelmointikielen kääntäjät L", but I think that one is nowadays split into two parts (T-106.4200 + T-106.5450) and I'm not sure those two sum up to the same.
22:06:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Heh, you went to japan just to avoid a number pad? :P
22:06:55 <Deewiant> Das Keyboard is not numberpadless, Unicomp I can't remember exactly what I didn't like about them
22:07:13 <Ilari> olsner: 122-key Model-M for PC.
22:07:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, it's split. Did you have to code a compiler in Java?
22:07:35 <ehird> I don't know what that implies, Deewiant .
22:07:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: In Java, for "MiniJava", yes.
22:08:06 <Deewiant> Bah, then I don't get to rant and rave about how we have to and you didn't.
22:08:12 <Ilari> olsner: Extremely rare.
22:08:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Is it still targeting Sparc?
22:08:29 <Ilari> (I only have 102-key IBM keyboard).
22:08:45 <ehird> Deewiant: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87zeb How does this differ from yours?
22:08:51 <ehird> It lacks 4 keys, but what are they?
22:09:20 <ehird> "**Fukka, pronounced foo-ka,"
22:09:25 <ehird> BAD NAME. BAD NAME!
22:09:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Implies: inverted-L enter, small backspace to make way for a key, smaller space to make way for two more meta-type keyss
22:10:06 <ehird> Shitty enter, unusable backspace, unusable space... wow, it implies a shitty keyboard.
22:10:25 <Deewiant> Small size does not a key unusable make.
22:10:38 <ehird> It does when it's backspace.
22:10:49 <Deewiant> Except when backspace is caps lock.
22:11:10 <ehird> Do you really backspace that often? :P
22:11:33 <Deewiant> Do you really caps lock that often? :-P
22:11:58 <Deewiant> I backspace more than I press any other key that I'd put there
22:12:04 <ehird> No, but I don't think backspace is the best thing to put there.
22:12:09 <ehird> I'd put tab there.
22:12:17 <ehird> For tab-completion, etc.
22:12:40 <ehird> OK then, how about....
22:13:05 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW ABOUT A MEDIA KEY
22:13:21 <ehird> You press the key and it pops up a dialog with the text "NO"
22:13:23 <Deewiant> The Das Keyboard had some key issues that were discussed on geekhack, I forget what they were
22:13:25 <ehird> It is thhte NO key
22:13:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Squeaking?
22:13:36 <ehird> Or in the results?
22:15:16 <Deewiant> Ah, Unicomp's boards have a groove on caps lock
22:16:20 <Deewiant> The one that doesn't isn't buckling spring.
22:16:22 <ehird> But yes, they use the exact same design as the Model M for the most part.
22:16:32 <ehird> The springs, the layout, the circuitry everything.
22:16:46 <Deewiant> Yeah, and that's unacceptable. :-P
22:17:07 <ehird> Cuz buckling spring sucks? IF SO I AGREE
22:17:14 <ehird> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html has the One True Layout, though,
22:17:18 <Deewiant> Filco's keyboards are fairly close to optimal but too bad the Z series is a crapshoot
22:17:24 <ehird> Well, jusut the main section.
22:17:29 <ehird> Although the space could be bigger.
22:17:58 <Deewiant> Blue Cherries might be nice but those don't come in tenkeyless form. (Except for the one US dealer who had them special-ordered... in US layout only, of course)
22:18:24 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:18:35 <ehird> The thing with the tactile but non-clicky switches is that I'd feel compelled to bottom every key out so I can hear it.
22:18:54 <Deewiant> Nothing wrong with bottoming out IMO
22:19:24 <ehird> Clicky but non-tactile switches are funny; I think they exist.
22:19:37 <ehird> "Want a noisy keyboard? Don't want this to help you in any way?"
22:19:49 <ehird> I mean, non-clicky non-tactile, sure, the mechanical switches help... but why add useless noise?
22:20:48 <ais523> like mobile phone cameras that simulate a mechanical clicking sound when you use them?
22:20:59 <Deewiant> That's for legal reasons, isn't it
22:21:09 <ehird> Deewiant: They exist, though
22:21:11 <Deewiant> So you can't take a picture in secret
22:21:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Don't they all do that?
22:21:49 <ehird> I'm not talking about cameras
22:22:02 <ehird> For example, the Cherry MX Black is a non-tactile, non-clicky switch--which is to say it is linear and does not transmit a bump to the user's fingertip when pressed and it does not provide an audible click. The Cherry MX Blue, however, is both tactile and clicky. And the Cherry MX Brown is tactile, but not clicky. And all three require different amounts of force to actuate, the heaviest being the Black model, followed by the Blue, and then the Brown.
22:22:10 <ehird> The combinations are all sensible.
22:22:22 <ehird> I want my clicky non-tactile switches!
22:22:26 <Deewiant> You said you think they exist and now you say they exist
22:22:36 <Deewiant> I doubt they exist, personally :-P
22:22:38 <ehird> I don't know what you're talking about
22:22:43 <ehird> I thought they did though
22:22:49 <Deewiant> 2009-10-08 00:21:49 ( ehird) I'm not talking about cameras
22:22:56 <ehird> YOU ARE SO FUCKING CONFUSING SHUT UP.
22:22:58 <Deewiant> Then you had to be talking about the key switches
22:23:18 <Deewiant> It helps to not use "they" all the time.
22:23:34 <ehird> It helps not to use your mom all the time, Deewiant, but I don't see you heeding that advice.
22:24:04 <ehird> They're sane, but they are retards.s
22:24:22 <ehird> Personally I'd trust them over them, because they are just crazy, but they could alleviate that problem a bit with their help.
22:24:52 <Deewiant> Using "they" twice in the same clause referring to different entity groups is just fucked up, though.
22:25:14 <ehird> I have never made a single message talking about cameras before you accused me of doing so.
22:26:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:26:07 * ehird wonders why we still use staggered keyboard layouts.
22:26:16 <ehird> I mean, guize, we're not using typewriters here?
22:26:30 <FireFly> I'm using a Dvorak variant :)
22:26:35 <Deewiant> You said "they exist, though" after I posted about cameras; having previously said "they exist" re. keyswitches I figured "they" had to be cameras
22:26:59 <ehird> "They exist" wrt cameras didn't really make sense in context, so blah!
22:27:26 <Deewiant> It didn't make much sense in any context so I picked the most recent as most likely
22:27:27 <ehird> Also, why do people use Colemak? It's a total compromise.
22:27:58 <ehird> It's designed to be a mid-way point that's easier for QWERTY users to learn, and panders to WIMP applications' default keyboard shortcut set.
22:28:05 <ehird> That doesn't seem a sane long-term solution to me.
22:28:39 <Deewiant> It's designed as highly optimized while not differing from QWERTY where sensible
22:29:04 <Deewiant> Or more like "differing as little as possible"
22:29:11 <ehird> Why is that better than Dvorak, which is slightly more revolutionary but designed based on typing speed rather than the status quo?
22:29:23 <Deewiant> Because Colemak is supposedly better optimized.
22:29:43 <ehird> I haven't seen that being said anywhere.
22:30:07 <ehird> (Incidentally, some Colemak advocates are weird:
22:30:08 <ehird> "Colemak uses the home row 14% more than Dvorak, and 122% more than QWERTY
22:30:09 <ehird> On Dvorak your fingers move 10% more…and on QWERTY 102% more than Colemak"
22:30:13 <ehird> 102% less finger movement!
22:30:38 <Deewiant> X is 102% more than Y does not mean that Y is 102% less than X
22:30:38 <pikhq> ... Percents don't work that way, mmkay?
22:31:05 <ehird> i.e., it's oddly phrased at first sight.
22:32:26 <Deewiant> ehird: An argument I think I saw on colemak.com was that with Colemak they had the advantage of having computers (Dvorak being too old for this) so they could just run shit on lots of text and calculate what works better
22:33:00 <ehird> I highly doubt such a script would produce something so similar to QWERTY; they have clearly crippled it to retain similarity.
22:33:18 <ehird> Incidentally, that was done experimentally with a Dvorak typist on themselves, remember? End result was not that much changed from Dvorak, and not any faster.
22:33:19 <Deewiant> Sure, but it still beats Dvorak.
22:33:32 <ehird> So... Dvorak is pretty optimal by chance.
22:33:37 <ehird> Or, y'know, by reasoned design.
22:34:10 <ehird> Making a computer change shit according to typing patterns and analyse the results.
22:34:17 <Ilari> Remapping only the QWERTY letters region? That would retain lot of similarity...
22:35:01 <Deewiant> ehird: I didn't say a computer was the one changing shit
22:35:12 <ehird> Your mom changes shit. :|
22:35:29 <Deewiant> Without seeing the algo I can't comment; local maxima are likely
22:35:36 <Deewiant> If they started from QWERTY and got near-Dvorak then that's interesting
22:36:04 <ehird> They started from Dvorak, and the end optimal result was a little different from Dvorak, and not better enough to bother deviating from the standard.
22:36:22 <Deewiant> My guess is they got stuck in a local optimum.
22:36:27 <ehird> i.e., "Let's see how I can type better. Computer analyses, changes, he adjusts, types a bit, computer analyses, repeat."
22:37:03 <Deewiant> Anyway, interesting tidbit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blickensderfer_typewriter had the keys DHIATENSOR on the bottom row, those being the most common letters in English
22:37:25 <Deewiant> Rearranging that to ARSTDHNEIO gives the Colemak home row.
22:37:33 <Rugxulo> the esoteric language ETA uses ETAOINSH due to popular usage
22:37:54 <ehird> Colemak obviously started with that due to its famousosity.
22:38:04 <ehird> (There's some disagreement on what the actual most common letters araer.)
22:38:26 <Rugxulo> what, never seen Wheel of Fortune? R S T L N E ;-)
22:39:01 <Pthing> etaoin shrdlu is the actual order
22:39:02 <ehird> guess who else never saw wheel of fortune
22:39:03 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, I didn't find out about the Blickensderfer until months after I started with Colemak :-P
22:40:36 <Deewiant> http://colemak.com/Compare has a Java applet for statisfaction
22:42:25 <ehird> "Java applet[…text not including 'not'…]satisfaction"
22:42:31 <Deewiant> ehird: As far as being crippled due to QWERTY similarity... I'm honestly not sure I'd want to move anything in Colemak, the similarity is mostly in rare letters
22:42:47 <Deewiant> ehird: statisfaction, not satisfaction
22:42:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:43:04 <Deewiant> As in, satisfaction through statistics.
22:43:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:43:14 <ehird> Well that's still a type of satisfaction.
22:43:23 <ehird> Maybe you mean the core dump of Java's statistics.
22:43:39 <Gregor> 4 October: http://lonelydino.com/?id=50 | 7 October: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1568 | Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
22:45:07 <ehird> also, I think that's the most surreal Dinosaur Comic for a while
22:45:40 <Deewiant> You can probably find text in which Dvorak trumps Colemak according to those stats but it seems rare enough that I'd rather stick with Colemak
22:45:57 <ehird> 10:06:56 <AnMaster> to ehird when he joins: the power supply on my thinkpad turned out to be too weak to both charge the battery and sustain a heavy load (both cores at 95% or more, 3D graphics). It could sustain the load itself (so the battery didn't discharge, but nor did it charge)
22:45:57 <ehird> 10:07:09 <AnMaster> since he was considering a thinkpad he may be interested in this
22:46:06 <ehird> interesting, especially since I'll be using a 9/12-cell + 3-cell ultrabay battery
22:46:08 <ehird> I'll buy a beefy charger
22:46:12 <ehird> like 95W or something
22:46:13 <Deewiant> Messing with the number keys like the original Dvorak did could be cool, though
22:46:37 <ehird> Deewiant: Based on what, the statistical commonness of digits? :P
22:47:06 <fizzie> "aitnesloku" is the "etaoin shrdlu" phrase for Finnish; or at least the common one that's been going around, I have no clue whether it's actually from a sufficiently large corpus.
22:47:09 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Original_Dvorak_layout
22:47:20 <ehird> 10:16:49 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, how long after that will 9.04 be supported?
22:47:20 <ehird> 10:16:56 <AnMaster> I hope at least a month or so
22:47:24 <ehird> Ubuntu 9.10 will be stable upon release.
22:47:39 <ehird> It is of the same stability stature as 9.04, so.
22:48:18 <Deewiant> Or flipping so that the digits need shift and () etc don't.
22:48:34 <ehird> 10:29:45 <oklokok> game theory is hard.
22:48:34 <ehird> 10:30:15 <AnMaster> oklokok, calculating limits is even harder.... *sigh*
22:48:42 <ehird> well not really, but i lol'd inside and grinned
22:49:11 <Deewiant> Limits tend to be fairly trivial
22:49:32 <ehird> I think in Sweden you're still on basic arithmetic when you enter university or something
22:49:57 <Deewiant> Limits are "basic arithmetic" now?
22:51:22 <ehird> Anyway, I'm joking
22:51:32 <ehird> But AnMaster *has* commented that Swedish mathematics education is ridiculously terrible, so.
22:51:39 <Deewiant> I'm aware he's in uni and I'm not sure what that has to do with anything :-P
22:51:43 <oerjan> Gregor: the third source comic link on that lonely dino strip is not working. also, why the heck are you going via google?
22:51:54 <ehird> i.e., he's gone past basic arithmetic in uni to limits
22:54:11 <Gregor> oerjan: Because the comic numbers don't correspond to the numbers in the file.
22:54:30 <Gregor> oerjan: Except in the rare cases when google won't do it, this method gives a much more useful comic number.
22:55:00 <oerjan> Gregor: rare? i checked and it happened for a source in the previous lonely dino too
22:55:04 <ehird> Just ask North to give a reverser script thing :-P
22:55:11 <ehird> oerjan: Rare? WHAT IT'S A WHOLE TWO
22:55:17 <ehird> How can it possibly be rare, it happened twice.
22:55:27 <oerjan> ehird: it's a 1/3 hit rate on my experimenting
22:55:50 <Gregor> 1/3 miss rate from your two experiments.
22:56:12 <ehird> fizzie: re: compression - why use a generic algo?
22:56:22 <ehird> 90% of the text is word, word, punctuation, space separated, right?
22:56:28 <ehird> Tally up the most common words, go from there.
22:56:33 <ehird> Shorthand, basically.
22:57:01 <oerjan> actually, the second one is not quite as bad, it does give the link but doesn't go directly to it
22:59:21 <fizzie> A shared dictionary for the messages might help, though I doubt that'd save so incredibly much space. It's basically what deflate would do (building the dictionary as it goes along) if I were to actually compress all the messages as a single block.
22:59:46 <Rugxulo> Deewiant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_Fortune_(U.S._game_show)
22:59:57 <ehird> fizzie: Eh! Link me; I'm reduce the fuck out of that size.
23:00:34 <Deewiant> I've played the DOS game and possibly seen parts of a Finnish equivalent
23:00:44 <fizzie> ehird: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/rfk86/ and messages.txt.
23:00:48 <ehird> [[Mr Berlusconi insists he should not be 'distracted' from governing
23:00:49 <ehird> Italy's Constitutional Court has overturned a law granting Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi immunity from prosecution while in office.
23:00:49 <ehird> "We must govern for five years with or without the law."]]
23:00:56 <fizzie> What was Deewiant's final compression score on that?
23:01:19 <ehird> A million bux and a 1.7GiB of RAM?
23:01:46 <ehird> fizzie: logo.png; what's with the "Your job is []"?
23:02:00 <fizzie> ehird: The [] is the robot from the row above.
23:02:12 <fizzie> It's... maybe not so clear.
23:02:39 <ehird> fizzie: So, that text antialiasing on the name... that's done by flickering?
23:02:41 <fizzie> See, "you are robot"; and the robot is denoted with the [] character.
23:02:45 <ehird> I wonder if that actually, you know, works, visually.
23:03:03 <fizzie> It does, the screen response rate is so slow.
23:03:18 <ehird> Wouldn't that just make it look bold and blocky in slow alternation
23:03:49 <ehird> Clear to play, no?
23:03:52 <fizzie> FireFly: Actually it's now "clear to play".
23:03:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:04:03 <fizzie> ehird: The screenshot png there is an old one, which says "exit".
23:04:17 <ehird> Not a screenshot, is it, having greyscale pixels?
23:04:31 <fizzie> It's an emulator screenshot.
23:04:39 <fizzie> The emulators emulate the grayscale; it's so common.
23:04:57 <fizzie> But I think it does work quite well on the hardware.
23:05:15 <ehird> So, processing power for decoding doesn't really matter does it? I mean, the primary constraint is RAM. As long as it's instant on a modern computer...
23:05:50 <FireFly> RAM: 128 KB, 96 KB user-accessible <-- ow, a lot
23:05:55 <ehird> Nested quantifiers in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/...thingy??? <-- HERE
23:06:17 <fizzie> Er, well, it's something like a thousand times slower (and restricted to 8-bit operations), so "instant on a modern computer" can stretch quite a lot.
23:06:34 <ehird> This will be simpler than deflate, anyway.
23:07:17 <ehird> Uh... Perl's function join does the opposite of split, right?
23:07:19 <ehird> Why am I using Perl.
23:07:24 <ehird> I'm writing this in Python.
23:07:30 <fizzie> FireFly: The "user-accessible" remark is pretty strange; what it means is that 96 KB is the amount which is used for the "filesystem" where the calculator stores all variables and programs; the remaining 32K is used for running programs (and the OS).
23:08:32 <FireFly> How much of it can ASM programs allocate? Still only the "user-accessible" part?
23:08:39 * FireFly wants a USB slot for his TI-82
23:08:58 <FireFly> 'cause TI-BASIC is UTTERLY SLOW
23:09:28 <Rugxulo> apparently Ander D'Nar wrote one for TI-8x already
23:09:51 <fizzie> There's one 16K page (page 1) that is mostly empty that an asm program can use as scratch space, and there are a few holes on the permanently mapped 16K page (page 0); there's something like 8 K in which it loads the program to execute, and some other places you can use more or less safely.
23:09:54 <ehird> This$ $is$ $the$ $tenth$ $key$ $you$'$ve$ $found$ $so$ $far$.$
23:10:31 <fizzie> (But the rest of the holes are a lot smaller; there's one kilobyte used by the graph screen copy, that's probably the biggest one of them.
23:10:59 <ehird> It's$ $a$ $Cat$ $5$ $cable$.$
23:10:59 <ehird> It's$ $a$ $U$.$S$.$$ $president$.$
23:11:01 <ehird> Same thing, really.
23:11:16 <ehird> I'll have to strip out those spaces and make them just part of the separator in the serialisation.
23:11:43 <FireFly> What are you doing, grabbing the [\w']+'s?
23:11:50 <ehird> messages = sys.stdin.read().split('\n')
23:11:51 <ehird> split_msgs = [re.split(r'([ .!?"])', msg) for msg in messages]
23:11:51 <ehird> print '\n'.join('$'.join(msg) for msg in split_msgs)
23:11:55 <fizzie> And of course if you're willing to code your program so that it can do a VAT (variable allocation table) lookup, you can put stuff in user-visible variables. But there's only 64K addressable on the processor; the memory is mapped in 16K pages, and it's a bit iffy to handle things that cross page boundaries.
23:11:55 <ehird> Going to optimise by word, basically.
23:12:16 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
23:12:21 <ais523> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
23:12:22 <ehird> Approaching$.$$ $$ $One$ $car$.$$ $$ $J$.$$ $$ $Followed$ $by$.$$ $$ $Two$ $car$.$$ $$ $M,$ $M$.$$ $$ $In$ $five$.$$ $Minutes$.$
23:12:27 <ehird> WTF is up with those $$s, I wonder?
23:12:29 <fizzie> Just remember to count your dictionary size in the compression results.
23:12:43 <ehird> fizzie: Naturally.
23:12:59 <ehird> fizzie: It could be included in the decompression code to save some cycles.
23:13:26 <fizzie> If it's not more than a kilobyte or so.
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23:13:54 <ehird> It's$ $a$ $blatant$ $plug$ $for$ $Ogg$ $Vorbis$,$$ $http://www$.$vorbis$.$com/
23:14:00 <ehird> Obviously those URLs are going to be non-optimal...
23:14:09 <ehird> fizzie: I'll omit the dictionary for fnords, obviously.
23:14:13 <ehird> (= Singular appearances.)
23:14:27 <ehird> So that'd likely come out with http://www, vorbis, and com/ literally.
23:14:45 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:15:19 <ehird> Ehh. Lossy compression is dead to me for new encodes.
23:15:43 <ehird> Also, Vorbis is probably not patent-free because nothing is.
23:15:47 <coppro> well, you should always have at least one lossless copy, but it's not what you want to be throwing around
23:16:04 <oerjan> ehird: whenever [ .!?"] matches two chars in sequence, you get an empty string as part of the split, i think
23:16:07 <ehird> (And CD doesn't count as a lossless copy, btw.)
23:16:09 <coppro> by "throwing around", I mean the Internet
23:16:12 <ehird> oerjan: Ah. You are indeed correct.
23:16:25 <ehird> CDs are only not lossless because it's so easy to damage them.
23:16:35 <ehird> Disks with backups and SSDs (failure mode doesn't lose data) are lossless.
23:16:54 <ehird> The$ $non-kitten$ $item$ $bites$!$
23:18:22 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, digital isn't lossless
23:18:37 <ehird> Neither is any analog storage mechanismm.
23:18:51 <ehird> (And I hope you're not one of the "Vinyl sounds better than CD" folk...)
23:19:11 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm one of those "live wins over both"
23:19:32 <ehird> Live music is hardly *more* polished than a recording.
23:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't have shouting fans at a classical concert
23:20:00 <ehird> If we go by authenticity, realising it in the actual platonic space of concepts and ideas is the best way to listen to music.
23:20:16 <AnMaster> and it is quite well polished indeed
23:20:30 <ehird> Yes, but a studio recording is hardly ever going to be less polished.
23:21:01 <Rugxulo> .mp3 is worse than CD quality, but nobody complains
23:21:47 <ehird> Are we talking 128kbps CBR mp3s?
23:21:57 <ehird> Because, sure, I can't tell the difference most of the time, but eww. Just eww.
23:21:59 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> .mp3 is worse than CD quality, but nobody complains <-- I do.
23:22:14 <ehird> Rugxulo is using "complains" to mean "can tell the difference".
23:22:23 <ehird> (And it would be unwise to challenge that, as it's almost certainly true.)
23:22:44 <ehird> Well, sure, Frauhnhofer or whatever at 128 will be ridiculously bad.
23:22:52 <ehird> -V2 with a recent LAME is great, though.
23:23:01 <ehird> But really, lossless is fine.
23:23:19 <ehird> I use ALAC, but that's only because iTunes can't do FLAC non-retardedly.
23:23:28 <ehird> It's basically FLAC, but proprietary and larger.
23:23:40 <ehird> Well, I also have mp3s because pirates can't generally be picky.
23:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird, larger == fail for compression
23:24:02 <ehird> It's not larger than the original soucre.
23:24:06 <ehird> Just larger than FLAC.
23:24:13 <ehird> Which is to be expected, because FLAC is the king of lossless compression sizes.
23:24:25 <ehird> A few megs don't matter at these sizes. :P
23:24:58 <ehird> A$ $number$ $of$ $short$ $theatrical$ $productions$ $are$ $indexed$ $1$, $2$, $3$, ... $n$.$
23:25:08 <ehird> Now, I'm not sure having ", ... " as one symbol makes sense.
23:25:11 <ehird> Eh; probably doesn't matter.
23:25:23 <ehird> fizzie: Can the TI-86 handle non-byte aligned stuff?
23:25:33 <ehird> No reason not to have "a" or "the" be two bits, right? :P
23:26:02 <ehird> Admittedly it won't be very seekable. I could align at seek points.
23:26:59 <ehird> fizzie: Have you considered antialiasing victory.png? It is rather unsightly.
23:30:46 * coppro attempts to find a way to keep a window on top but make sure it doesn't get any mouse clicks
23:32:56 <ehird> Active window != top window.
23:33:13 <ehird> Use a sloppy-focus WM, raise said window, hover over another.
23:33:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:33:42 <coppro> ehird: yeah, but I don't think KDE will do that
23:33:51 <ehird> kwin is just one window manager.
23:33:56 <ehird> You can replace it with another, temporarily or not.
23:34:03 <ehird> KDE doesn't depend on kwin.
23:34:09 <coppro> yeah, sorry, meant kwin
23:34:23 <coppro> but it's not worth my effort to find a wm that will do that and just use it temporarily
23:34:23 <ehird> Also, you could use the other WM and then replace it with kwin without moving the mouse.
23:34:33 <ehird> You already have it.
23:34:55 <ehird> I find your distro's packaging disturbing.
23:38:25 <ehird> Well, it's practically osmosified itself into general internet lingo by now, but yess.
23:41:03 <ehird> I love how Safari has an "uncrash" button
23:42:13 <Rugxulo> "advertising, advertising, advertising ... fix Vista ... advertising, adver ..."
23:42:27 <ehird> Holy crap, another Notational Velocity release?
23:42:43 <ehird> The world as we know it may be over. Say your goodbyes.
23:43:32 <fizzie> ehird: It can handle non-byte-aligned stuff approximately as well as any other byte-addressing processor. Anyway, the deflate-like stream is already composed of variable-length Huffman-coded symbols, that don't even pretend to be byte-aligned. I just align each separate message to start at a byte boundary.
23:43:47 <fizzie> And no, I don't think I'll bother antialiasing victory.png; it's animated, anyway, that sort of makes up for it.
23:44:13 <ehird> Animate it by just changing the colours of pixels; after all, the flickering will antialiase it differently.
23:44:16 <ehird> It's sort of like subpixel movement!
23:44:39 <ehird> Like, one frame just changes the colours of some of the antialiasing, the next moves the frame. It looks like a three-fame movement, but it isn't! Sort of.
23:46:13 <fizzie> Anyway, I'll probably try doing something like adding a dictionary of the most common substrings over the whole messages.txt, and changing the LZ77 repeat-pair encoding so that it can refer either to the output or the fixed dictionary; that should be a reasonable compromise method. But not today.
23:46:34 <ehird> I think a word-based approach will work best; it is English, after all.
23:47:19 <fizzie> A word-based approach is just a special case of a substring-based approach, really; if words are what are repeated, then words are what will end up in the dictionary.
23:49:12 <fizzie> What I like about LZ77 is that it pretty elegantly includes also run-length-encoding as a special case (with a length > 1 and distance = 1 pair); that makes a difference because I got bored of Z80 assembly and did line-wrapping with Perl, padding things with spaces so that they wrap properly in the message area.
23:53:58 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
23:54:01 <fizzie> And replying to a comment ages ago in the backscroll, Ander D'Nar did not write one for "TI-8x", no matter how much it might say so on the news page; his version is for TI-83+ and TI-84+ (which really is pretty much identical) only, not the TI-86.
23:54:27 <fizzie> I wouldn't have been doing the port if it existed already.
23:55:08 <fizzie> Though the robotfindskitten.org people aren't answering my emails (well, email), so...
23:55:45 <ehird> It's been whole DAYS!
23:58:36 <fizzie> I shall be mailbombing them very soon now to teach them just who they're dealing with.
23:59:11 <fizzie> (In other words, I'll send a second email when I get the official rfk86 web page up.)
00:00:13 <fizzie> Oh, and speaking of the "aitnesloku"; I ran 60 megabytes of gzipped Finnish newsposts through a pipeline, and indeed the most popular are exactly those, in exactly that order. It must have some sort of basis in truth then.
00:08:04 <Warrigal> I still insist that words can be words even if they're ubiquitiless.
00:08:54 <oerjan> perfectly cromulent (although that word is probably not ubiquitiless any longer)
00:10:45 <oerjan> although it would help if you made the last i a y, i think
00:17:26 * ehird sets up Notational Velocity, realises he never has a need to take notes
00:17:37 <ehird> I also don't keep a todo because I never forget what I need/want to do...
00:18:38 <oerjan> and you don't need to brush your teeth or comb your hair, they keep perfect all on their own
00:18:54 <ehird> you forget whether you need to do that?
00:23:00 <ehird> I just can't figure out how it's relevant
00:23:42 <oerjan> it's a comment on your obvious perfection
00:24:28 <ehird> I wasn't saying anything like that
00:24:39 <oerjan> <ehird> I also don't keep a todo because I never forget what I need/want to do...
00:24:43 <ehird> I kept a todo for ages, then I realised when I read it the next day, I knew what it was saying
00:25:03 <ehird> bang goes my theory of I-forget-everything-overnight, bang goes the usefulness of todo lists
00:25:39 <coppro> probably the very act of writing it down caused you to remember; I'm like that
00:26:33 <ehird> Nope; I just stopped keeping a todo list and I was fine.
00:26:49 <ehird> At least, the things I've forgotten can't have been very good ideas, because I've been perfectly content since.
00:29:24 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode.").
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00:34:41 <ehird> "First of all, fuck you too. Let's just get that out of the way." --jwz
00:35:58 <ehird> the replier proceeds to call jamie zawinski an anonymous internet crybaby
00:36:09 <ehird> ...probably with a Netscape-derived browser...
00:36:52 <ehird> "If Palm had approved his apps[…]almost no one would have heard of jwz."
00:37:05 <ehird> you'd think people would check before calling jwz anonymous, unknown or whatever
00:37:44 <ehird> "I was not aware of you as my programming experience hasn't really touched on the open source realm"
00:37:49 <ehird> Netscape 3: so open source.
00:41:42 <ehird> btw, does anyone know of an smtp server that only starts when required?
00:41:45 <ehird> that would be cool
00:45:19 -!- augur_ has joined.
00:46:22 <ehird> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/10/there_is_no_web.html OOOooohhh, it's just like the old days of quirksmode! Browser incompatibilities galore! No rendering engine is safe!
00:46:30 <ehird> My keyboard also seems to be lagging behind my typing!
00:47:10 <ehird> Disproving that the web exists would indeed be amusing.
00:50:53 <ehird> Today in A Series of Things That I Miss When Not Using OS X: You can inject keyboard shortcuts into any application! System Preferences -> Keyboard & Moues -> Keyboard Shortcuts -> + -> Choose an application (or All Applications for global stuff) -> Type in the corresponding name in the menus for the action that you want the shortcut to do -> Press the shortcut -> Add!
00:51:13 <ehird> For instance: Safari, Google Search…, ⌘K.
00:51:20 <ehird> Now ⌘K focuses the search field.
00:51:50 <ehird> It even displays ⌘K next to Edit → Find → Google Search….
00:58:53 <ehird> Did YouTube change player design *again*?
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01:52:12 <madbrain> I spent the day working on this http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar
01:56:35 <madbrain> well, yeah, what else is practical with a functional language?
01:58:47 <coppro> so is (>,) a function returning the right half of ,, or is it false/0?
02:01:02 <ehird> madbrain: "reassign the value of this variable to a new value"
02:01:05 <ehird> that's functional?
02:01:11 <ehird> well perhaps, not purely functional thhough
02:01:46 <madbrain> coppro: It returns the right half but the i/o uses it to represent false
02:02:34 <coppro> I'd invent new symbols for that; it's too confusin otherwise
02:02:47 <coppro> ehird: just imagine it as a series of functions chained from bottom to top
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02:02:58 <ehird> coppro: It has IO.
02:03:09 <coppro> ehird: I was talking about the variabe
02:03:11 <ehird> It is not purely functional because it is not referentially transparent, and argument oorder matters.
02:03:18 <coppro> it's obviously not purely functional
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02:06:14 <madbrain> uh, I think it is referentially transparent
02:07:48 <coppro> a statement with an I/O operation cannot be safely replaced with its value
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03:10:11 <ehird> Minimalism doesn't account for bitchin
03:14:01 <ehird> Hey, Colloquy strips it.
03:14:07 <ehird> New favourite IRC client found!
03:14:18 <ehird> I wonder if I should pirate+install Snow Leopard; that could be fun.
03:14:26 <oerjan> however, i would probably not have seen it anyway
03:15:18 <oerjan> sir ehird, baron of hexham
03:15:25 <ehird> LimeChat is unstable and has no, for instance, ignore feature.
03:15:33 <ehird> Also, it's less mac-like than Colloquy, which admittedly sucks.
03:15:36 <ehird> But it sucks less.
03:15:38 <augur_> it definitely has ignore
03:15:41 <augur_> and is perfectly stable
03:15:44 <ehird> No, it does not have ignore.
03:15:48 <ehird> It at least did not a month or two ago.
03:15:57 <ehird> I know this because the creator said he would consider adding it.
03:16:04 <ehird> In its Google Group.
03:16:19 <ehird> Admittedly I only switched to Colloquy so I could ignore AnMaster for a few hours, but still.
03:16:35 <ehird> Anyhow, do you have the snowy leppy up on dat thing?
03:16:36 * oerjan prepares to start harassing the defenseless augur_
03:16:58 <ehird> I haven't even upgraded to iTunes 9 yet; I'm so fucking old school.
03:17:58 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
03:19:00 <ehird> It's a shame that Apple's computers don't feature a model to my liking for the purpose I want, because it would be nice to keep OS X. On the other hand I'm not sure I want to deal with EFI, etc. for other OSs. And OSx86 is just uber-lame.
03:21:50 <ehird> Although I'm continually tempted to stay with OS X every time I see awesome shit like this: http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/11/28/ssh_agent_leopard/
03:23:16 <ehird> I mean, c'mon. They added bloody OS integration to ssh-agent.
03:25:38 <ehird> Oh boy oh boy oh boy, exciting new iTunes 9! It's way uglier, looks less like the OS, and has added a smart playlist called Classical Music that I don't want.
03:25:50 <ehird> God, it's... so ugly.
03:26:21 <augur> whatve they changed?
03:28:03 <ehird> http://static.maniacalrage.net/bucket/itunes/
03:28:07 <ehird> Hover over. Warning: You may barf.
03:28:34 <ehird> It's literally... I can't keep my eyes on it. I have an urge to close that window AS SOON AS DAMN POSSIBLE.
03:29:48 <augur> so really all they did is
03:29:52 <augur> make it look more like safari.
03:30:14 <augur> hardly major changes
03:30:44 <ehird> It looks nothing like Safari.
03:30:47 <ehird> They completely changed the UI.
03:30:55 <ehird> It no longer even imitates OS window decorations.
03:31:09 <ehird> It's some god-awful shiny-glass-candy version.
03:31:12 * Sgeo tweeted something that probably sounds stupid, but still:
03:31:16 <Sgeo> "Is it just me, or is the bill in the Senate suffering from specifying the changes made, and not indicating the result -- Just like B nomic.."
03:31:25 <ehird> We don't care, Sgeo.
03:32:12 <Sgeo> Nothing to say, just that I wish that we could easily read the final result of applying changes found in bills.
03:32:22 <Sgeo> As opposed to seeing "Change this here, change that there"
03:36:43 <ehird> There is no final text
03:36:51 <ehird> All text is appended, and the judges have to work out how to apply it all
03:37:10 <Sgeo> "Herbert Schildt has a knack for clear, readable text, describing a language subtly but quite definitely different from C."
03:37:17 <Sgeo> Anyone want to make a compiler for Schildt-lang?
03:37:49 <ehird> augur: Here's iTunes 9's interface in all its horrible, horrible wretchedness: http://imgur.com/3xiTw.png
03:38:20 <ehird> If that doesn't make you go "bleargh, look what they did to the window title; bleargh, look what they did to the play buttons; bleargh, look what they did to the now-playing box"... you may not be human.
03:38:49 <ehird> It's clearly a regression; it sticks out like a sore thumb unless it's the only application you're running, in which case you can pretend that all of OS X is this ugly and gratuitously shiny.
03:39:37 <ehird> Also, I like the new feature where it blurs Cover Flow, the track list and the library summary!
03:45:08 <ehird> Someone laugh at my hilarious joke, yo.
03:58:57 <ehird> http://imgur.com/mmhM7.jpg
04:01:14 <ehird> "I may even still be able to write code, and my dream is to contribute to open source software projects even from within an immobile body." --http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ab/dying_outside/
04:04:03 <ehird> (one of the original programmers of pgp 2.0)
04:06:57 <ehird> coppro: gonna be a bitch to write code on that thing, though
04:07:13 <coppro> better pick a language with good code complete
04:07:32 <ehird> "Our least productive contributor apart from you, divided by 1,000,000, is more productive than you!"
04:09:25 <coppro> ehird: support my cards reform
04:09:36 <ehird> By reform do you mean abolishment? If so, sure.
04:11:23 <coppro> also gogo wooble, start a coup :)
04:11:34 <ehird> Wait, I'm meant to support Wooble?
04:11:36 <oerjan> change it to mahjong, i'm sure zzo would be delighted
04:11:45 <ehird> I'm not sure I can support Wooble in anythting.
04:11:48 -!- ehird has left (?).
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04:12:01 <coppro> ehird: No, Wooble might start a coup; e stole BobTHJ's Admiral of the Navy
04:14:21 <ehird> Tell him from me."
04:14:21 <ehird> — James Joyce, Ulysses
04:14:40 <coppro> ehird: you really haven't been paying attention to Agora at all, have you?
04:14:51 <ehird> coppro: Well, I'm explicitly not reading any of the cards-related rules.
04:15:19 <coppro> Coups are cards-related, but only the Major Arcana (i.e. MwoP) cards
04:16:50 <ehird> But no, I haven't really been paying much attention to Agora after they decided to make the game really crap.
04:18:47 <coppro> you should propose getting rid of cards
04:19:00 <coppro> It has a chance of passing
04:19:22 <ehird> But then the bloat-loving masses will go "oh, but ehird, what do we replace the dungpile with?". :P
04:19:32 <ehird> SO WHAT IF I'M BITTER
04:20:08 <ehird> btw, anyone know if it's safe to pop off the keys in a scissor-switch keyboard?
04:20:24 <ehird> i.e. every notebook keyboard ever, except Apple computers
04:20:37 <coppro> if done correctly, yes
04:21:50 <ehird> I start to pick one up and it resists but bends up a bit.
04:21:52 <ehird> Can I just keep going?
04:22:01 <ehird> The key doesn't bend.
04:23:27 <coppro> I think you just keep going
04:23:38 <ehird> But it feels so snappy.
04:23:39 <coppro> try it on a key you don't need first
04:23:50 <ehird> Pretty sure I need that key.
04:23:59 <ehird> I don't need num lock, though.
04:24:17 <ehird> Ehh... I dunno about this.
04:25:40 <ehird> http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/Desktop/G85-23100/index.htm
04:25:53 <ehird> The keyswitches are somethhingorother.
04:25:55 <coppro> oh I thought you were being ehird
04:26:01 <ehird> coppro: "being ehird"?
04:26:12 <coppro> saying something random that isn't helpful at all
04:26:46 <coppro> in any case, pretty sure that's what you do. Not sure, and not willing to risk your keyboard on it
04:26:54 * Sgeo still can't quite believe that http://rinkworks.com/stupid/ is still updated
04:26:57 <ehird> You don't have to risk my keyboard on it. :P
04:27:10 <ehird> Sgeo: The hilarity just increases with every update!
04:27:53 <Sgeo> Teacher: "You can't do spaces in HTML. If you see spaces on web pages, then they must be using java to override basic HTML. Java saved the Internet, because it removes limitations of HTML, but it's beyond the scope of this course to show you how to do it."
04:28:03 <Sgeo> That has to be made up, right?
04:28:09 <ehird> Who is this teacher?
04:28:17 <Sgeo> Some person on http://rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_programming.shtml
04:28:30 <ehird> It's impossible to tell. Poe's law.
04:29:36 <ehird> "Programmer: "What do you mean, I can't initialize things in an assert()?""
04:29:43 <ehird> assert(your_wrong = bitch);
04:31:17 <Sgeo> My teacher once gave us this line of Javascript:
04:31:27 <Sgeo> document.write(<b>"Hello world!"</b>);
04:31:43 <ehird> is this class mandatory or something
04:32:08 <Sgeo> ehird, it was a high school Java class (yes, I know, Javascript is not Java. Don't ask me why it was thrown in there)
04:32:18 <Sgeo> We also learned Alice in that class!
04:32:26 <ehird> so, I'm pretty sure that I'm glad I'm not in the US, I suppose?
04:32:34 <Sgeo> (not the chat bot thing)
04:32:47 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, that's the correct thing to be.
04:32:49 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_%28software%29
04:33:05 <ehird> I'm pretty sure Alice sucks.
04:33:26 <coppro> It doesn't look terrible, but it certainly looks bad
04:33:32 <pikhq> Public education is still getting used to this whole "students have souls" thing. It'll take another couple of centuries to grasp what a computer actually is.
04:33:53 <ehird> pikhq: But I don't want them to get used to a falsity!
04:34:29 <Sgeo> I don't remember if we actually learned any Java in that class
04:35:59 * ehird wonders if he has the patience to see if you can run Windows 95's explorer.exe on XP/Vista/7
04:36:06 <ehird> (The patience to install one of those in a VM, that is.)
04:45:19 * coppro wants to play a colourful puzzle game that doesn't use flash... any suggestions?
04:45:48 <ehird> What's the matter? Pansy OS can't handle hardcore Adobe technology?
04:46:12 <coppro> no, I just want something that isn't flash
04:46:20 <ehird> Maybe you should stop being such a pansy!
04:47:13 <coppro> enigma is not very puzzley to tell the truth
04:47:17 <coppro> ooh, haven't heard of that one
04:47:37 <ehird> coppro: It's by ais523 and really old (iirc he was 15 when he started working on it)
04:47:57 <ehird> He was porting it to SDL recently and I got the source, patched it up a bit for my own nefarious purposes and compiled it for OS X
04:48:08 <coppro> what level set should I play, you think?
04:48:13 <ehird> But the license he gave it to me on forbids me from giving it to you without his permission, I believe.
04:48:14 <ehird> coppro: in Enigma?
04:48:25 <coppro> for more puzzles less skill
04:48:26 <ehird> well, the sokoban levels are very puzzley, but god I hate sokoban
04:48:32 * Sgeo discovers what he can only assume to be a bug in YouTube
04:48:42 <coppro> if I want Sokoban I'll play NetHack ;)
04:48:44 <ehird> coppro: compile the SVN version
04:48:57 <ehird> it has a few more level packs including some of ais523's
04:49:01 <ehird> and they're mostly puzzley
04:49:12 <Gregor> Sokoban = awesomesacue.
04:49:16 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kf0o-CqBcM should not be a 3d video
04:49:27 <ehird> SOKOBAN IS LIKE A DICK IN YOUR MOUTH WITHOUT BEING GAY
04:49:45 <ehird> Somehow I doubt watching this video is worthwhile.
04:50:12 <Sgeo> I made the new year's ball drop, but it is somewhat boring
04:50:25 <ehird> I was referring more to the "this person clearly likes Soulja Boy" aspect.
04:50:28 <Sgeo> And unviewable unless you put crosseyed viewing, which is the bug since this isn't a 3d video
04:50:36 <Sgeo> ehird, I've danced to Soulja Boy
04:50:42 <ehird> You are a horrible person.
04:50:47 <ehird> Please enter the nearest suicide booth.
04:51:01 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj6niGxLGP0 I'm the guy on the left
04:51:05 <Sgeo> (of the video)
04:51:43 <ehird> Is clicking on that link going to improve my day any?
04:52:06 <Sgeo> If watching me have two left feet would improve your day, yes
04:52:16 <ehird> Yes, but two left feet TO SOULJA BOY.
04:52:23 <ehird> It's like, I have certain boundaries. In my life.
04:52:24 <Gregor> If you've ever listened to Soulja Boy voluntarily, you should strongly consider the suicide booth.
04:52:26 <ehird> Even with muted audio.
04:52:29 <coppro> what the... how are knight stones controlled?
04:52:32 <ehird> And I do not transcend these boundaries.
04:52:34 <ehird> coppro: Diagonally.
04:52:46 <ehird> Sgeo: That video did not improve my day.
04:53:24 <Sgeo> How about the realization that I just revealed, in a publically logged chat, which school I go to?
04:53:34 <ehird> Gregor: Exception requested! I have in my possession a wonderful acoustic cover of whatever the only "song" anyone even knows by Soulja Boy. This clearly required listening to Soulja Boy, and yet I love it. Should its maker really consider suicide booths?
04:53:42 <ehird> Sgeo: HAHAHAHA NOW I AM GOING TO RAPE YOU
04:53:53 <ehird> THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME NOW THAT I KNOW WHAT SCHOOL YOU GO TO
04:54:16 <coppro> hmm... Enigma once again falls prey to the failing of requiring too much skill for a puzzle game
04:54:17 <Gregor> ehird: Consider doesn't necessarily mean use.
04:54:20 * ehird puts on his RAPE CAPE
04:54:22 -!- ehird has quit.
04:54:25 <coppro> I want something less mouse conrol more think
04:55:09 -!- ehird has joined.
04:55:20 <ehird> I am an exceptionally efficient rapist.
04:55:52 <coppro> ehird: want a game with less skill please, I'm not in a skillful mood
04:56:16 <ehird> Well, DNA Maze is a puzzle game, but it also requires a looot of tricky movement (keyboard though).
04:56:28 <ehird> What with the protagonist being a strand of DNA that constantly rotates every Nth of a second.
04:56:38 <ehird> + tight passages and stuff
04:56:43 <ehird> Also, you can't have it :P
04:56:54 <ehird> I could record a video of it!
04:57:00 <coppro> I want something like DROD, except that I don't feel like DROD right now
04:57:08 <oerjan> ehird: to the rapemobile!
04:57:16 <ehird> Or not! It looks like I deleted my archived Tiger system without regrets.
04:57:22 <coppro> hmm... could go downstairs and play some Magic
04:57:28 <ehird> This includes the only copy of the source that ais523 does not own.
04:58:02 <ehird> Turns out I saved it.
04:58:09 <coppro> hmm... I'm going to go downstairs and play Magic
04:58:27 <ehird> + the worst indentation style ever
04:58:44 <coppro> with tabs at 7 characters?
04:58:48 <ehird> void CloseDown(void) {
04:58:48 <ehird> for(size_t i=0;i<(sizeof images)/(sizeof *images);i++)
04:58:48 <ehird> if(images[i]) SDL_FreeSurface(images[i]);
04:58:49 <ehird> if(DemoFile) {fclose(DemoFile); DemoFile=0;}
04:58:50 <Gregor> Worse than GNU indentation? There are indentations worse than GNU indentation?
04:58:58 <ehird> Furthermore, it mixes spaces and tabs (assumed to be 8 characters wide)
04:59:11 <ehird> ais did it to be the indentation scheme intentionally repulsive to the most people possible
04:59:17 <ehird> but it's a bitch to maintain
04:59:17 <pikhq> KILL IT! KILL IT!!!
04:59:42 <ehird> To put it politely, I want to kill a bitch whenever I see it.
04:59:47 <coppro> hmm... I have only two real objections to that, and two minor issues
05:00:02 <pikhq> Then you have problems, coppro.
05:00:24 <ehird> Anyway, I recoded the build system and added the ability to make a Mac OS X binary, added a debug mode that unlocks all levels and, uh, stuff.
05:00:27 <oerjan> but but ... it's _perfect_!
05:00:49 <coppro> objections = closing brace not on own line, the second if all on one line. Minor issues are the first if being on one line and the leading brace not on its own line
05:01:00 <ehird> You mean you object to all of it? :P
05:01:01 <coppro> oh, now that I look there's spacing issues too, but that's generally not considered indentation style
05:01:11 <ehird> Also, mixing spaces andd tabs
05:01:18 <coppro> oh, that too, but it's not visible here
05:01:32 <coppro> but 2 spaces > everything else except elastic tabs
05:01:34 <Asztal> http://giraffes.pastebin.com/m44341aad
05:01:40 * coppro wishes elastic tabs existed in KATE
05:01:43 <ehird> 4 spaces are generally better.
05:02:02 <ehird> 8 is too disjointed, but 2 is too clunked together and encourages lots of nesting.
05:02:04 <ehird> BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?
05:02:15 <ehird> Just FUCKING USE TABS and let the reader decide, you goddamn fascist. :P
05:02:25 <coppro> no, tabs are even worse
05:02:26 <ehird> I'm going to start a new marketing campaign for tabs
05:02:27 <coppro> hm... maybe 3 looks good. I've never tried it
05:02:30 <ehird> "TABS: FUCKING USE THEM"
05:02:39 <coppro> because you inevitably have other things that need to line up - continuations, comments, etc.
05:02:45 <ehird> coppro: Tabs suck IF YOU USE THEM FOR ALIGNMENT, which is to say tabs suck IF YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD.
05:02:45 <coppro> and tabs are terrible for those
05:02:55 <ehird> So don't use them for alignment. That's not what a tab is.
05:03:00 <ehird> Also, alignment is generally stupid.
05:03:14 <ehird> Just put things on their own line before scrambling to reach the level of some other thing.
05:03:24 <coppro> ehird: sure, but if you use tabs for indentation, you can't safely spaces for alignment, because you don't know how many spaces the tab takes up
05:03:33 <coppro> ehird: have you ever heard of elastic tabs?
05:03:36 <Gregor> Alignment and indentation are too intertwined.
05:03:40 <ehird> You just use tabs until there's no more indentation, then space until you're aligned
05:03:42 <ehird> OH SNAP THAT WAS HARD!
05:03:55 <ehird> I have heard of elastic tabs.
05:04:06 <coppro> wish more editors supported them
05:04:09 <ehird> They are a solution in search of a problem; if you want such fluidity, ditch text-based editing and go to ASTs.
05:04:13 <ehird> (I don't think that's a good solution either.)
05:04:34 * ehird plays me some DNA Maze!
05:04:43 <Gregor> ehird: Now write an editor that distinguishes alignment from indentation and actually maintains your alignment in the correct tab/space ratio while you write code.
05:04:53 <ehird> Gregor: That's... any editor.
05:05:02 <ehird> Alignment: retarded.
05:05:23 <ehird> Or, less stupidly:
05:05:51 <coppro> Gregor: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
05:06:06 <ehird> (Or if you need a newline in a parameter list, stop having so many damn arguments)
05:06:18 * ehird loves DNA Maze's DOS-style graphics
05:06:22 <Gregor> Apparently I'm lagged by at least 30 seconds. Sweet.
05:06:37 <Gregor> Maybe I'm just not connected at all.
05:06:43 <Sgeo> <Gregor> Maybe I'm just not connected at all.
05:07:28 <Sgeo> I had the same thing happen to me, but only on Foonetic, and only in XChat, and I could see everything as it happened
05:07:33 <Sgeo> I used ERC as an emergency IRC client
05:08:08 <Sgeo> I guess the server XChat was connected to was lagging one-way somehow
05:08:11 <Sgeo> * Ping reply from Gregor: 66.70 second(s)
05:09:25 <Sgeo> Gregor, is your system clock accurate?
05:10:38 <ehird> God, I forgot how hard DNA Maze is.
05:11:32 <ehird> Well, it's not so much a puzzle game in that there's no hidden meaning to the level, but there is an awful lot of quick thinking.
05:11:48 <ehird> It's not as puzzley as some of Enigma's puzzle levels, but it's more puzzley, IMO, than Enigma's other levels
05:11:48 <coppro> so it's not a sit-back-and-think sort of game?
05:12:06 <ehird> If you are a crazy cyborg with unnatural keyboard skills and a ridiculously fast brain, sure it is.
05:12:10 * coppro likes games without time pressure
05:12:32 <ehird> Oh, you can go as slow as you want if you're in a safe position and don't have a bomb about to go off in your space.
05:13:23 <coppro> complete lack of time pressure is not necessary for fun, so I'd be willing to give it a shot
05:13:41 <ehird> I'll do a little video of it .
05:13:43 <coppro> and if it's just a sort of "okay, sit back, and gogogo, and sit back, and gogogo", that can be very good
05:14:16 <ehird> It's sort of like "Okay, I have to put this in that position and then that bomb will go off there so I can get into this place and move there which will tilt me there. 3, 2, 1, TAPTAPTAPTAPTAPTAP Phew. Okay, now... hmm..."
05:14:36 <coppro> yeah, sounds good then
05:14:46 <Sgeo> Is reading/watching/whatever OpenCourseWare a good idea?
05:14:57 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes. MIT are win.
05:15:03 * coppro signs up for an MTGO beta draft
05:16:22 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Brain-and-Cognitive-Sciences/9-00Fall-2004/LectureNotes/index.htm how long should I expect the lectures to be?
05:16:26 * ehird downsizes screen resolution, starts recording
05:20:04 <Sgeo> MIT asks for rescussitation info?
05:20:47 <Pthing> is usual lecture length
05:21:01 <Sgeo> This file is 1:19:16
05:24:14 <Sgeo> "Quantitative Physiology: Organ Transport Systems" WTF is that doing in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science?
05:24:17 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm#ElectricalEngineeringandComputerScience
05:25:32 <ehird> coppro: OK, I have a 5 minute, 14MiB demo
05:25:46 <ehird> With an annoying huge opaque watermark all the way through, but there you go
05:25:50 <Pthing> because i presume it deals with electrical systems in biology?
05:25:57 <Pthing> and goes into quite nerdy detail?
05:26:22 <Pthing> The first is a laboratory project on microfluidics. It provides an opportunity to study molecular transport and diffusion. In the second project, a software representation of the Hodgkin-Huxley model for a neural membrane will be used to introduce students to the use of computer simulation to understand the behavior of complex systems.
05:26:32 <ehird> coppro: i could just youtube it or something
05:26:45 <ehird> anyway, I need to find some headphones to check that it picked up my keypresses
05:26:51 <coppro> but that's even more lossy
05:26:56 <ehird> I'll upload it as HD
05:27:01 <ehird> the tiles are big enough h to see, anyway
05:27:03 <ehird> even the font is huge
05:27:19 <ehird> To be noted is that I'm not actually any good at it
05:28:17 <coppro> I'm pretty bad at most games
05:28:44 <ehird> Also, you will have to look at the APPALLING APPLE-MADE WINDOW MANAGER around it.
05:30:31 <coppro> actually, I should rephrase that
05:30:37 <coppro> I'm pretty bad at most video games
05:31:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("No, you'll explode!").
05:33:29 <ehird> coppro: emailing might be easier; do you have the ability to play H.264 files?
05:33:36 <ehird> you know, an evil patented format involving APPLE
05:33:39 <coppro> can mplayer play them?
05:33:50 <ehird> I have not yet found a format for which the answer to that is no.
05:33:59 <ehird> (VLC sux; it can't handle softsubs properly)
05:34:11 <ehird> (It completely disregards their formatting)
05:35:28 <ehird> Alright, uploading to Gmail
05:35:46 <ehird> Audio is recommended for oh-he-pressed-a-key purposes.
05:36:02 <ehird> (The only controls are the arrow keys, btw (apart from in the menus))
05:38:51 <ehird> I snapped off a key, where iis it
05:39:14 <coppro> oh wait, sorry, you're ehird. Try looking under the banana
05:39:21 <ehird> You were right. But it just went
05:39:26 <ehird> andd it was no longer there
05:39:35 <coppro> it was under the banana?
05:39:36 <ehird> now how do I reattach it
05:39:51 <ehird> tiny little dot on t he key
05:39:53 <coppro> just stick it on and press
05:39:57 <ehird> tiny little dip in the rubber
05:40:39 <coppro> maybe you need to do something arcane and stupid... good news is you got that key off
05:40:41 <ehird> It's i, by the way
05:40:55 <coppro> is the switch still on the board?
05:41:27 <ehird> The key that is off is just the plastic cap
05:41:35 <coppro> you should be not screwed then
05:41:41 <ehird> The little rubber nub that activates it is also still there
05:41:45 <coppro> but you may need to filled a little with it to get it back on
05:41:52 <ehird> It has a little dip for the tiny plastic dot to go in
05:42:25 <ehird> whoa, the switch lifts up
05:43:19 <ehird> coppro: forecast not good, man
05:43:32 <ehird> ok, sending dna maze
05:44:33 <ehird> so should i declare my i key a lost cause :(
05:45:29 <ehird> which I guess is permanent
05:45:38 <ehird> nobody else would notice
05:45:44 <ehird> but it's poking up on the right side
05:46:00 <ehird> this is an interim kb
05:46:58 <ehird> and it seems fine now
05:47:05 <ehird> if a little harder to press than the other keys
05:47:21 <ehird> apparently the total height including keys of this keyboard is 0.7"
05:49:11 <ehird> [[RUTLAND — A man placed on probation last week for allegedly assaulting his wife was arraigned yesterday on new charges stemming from an alleged assault his spouse said was brought on by her failure to properly cook his bacon on Sunday.
05:49:11 <ehird> She had been turning over strips of bacon that were cooking in a pan when Mr. Rutledge became angry because “it wasn’t in a neat line,” she wrote in a statement she gave police. She told police he struck her and told her, “You’re going to cause your own death.”
05:49:12 <ehird> He allegedly pushed her onto the couch when she threatened to call 911, saying, “You’ll pay with your life.”]]
05:49:16 <ehird> this man is a true defender of the bacon cause!
05:49:35 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway
05:51:36 <coppro> ehird: no email yet :(
05:51:44 <ehird> check your spam(TM)
05:52:03 <coppro> you aren't Clicked Cash are you?
05:55:23 <ehird> I wonder why so many Pascal's Wager rebuttals don't mention the fact that it assumes there are only two options: atheism and one form of Christianity.
05:55:53 <ehird> It can be totally defeated by showing that, since there are infinite possible gods, your chance, no matter what, of picking the right one is exactly 0.
05:56:50 <ehird> to bsmntbombdood, two random lines are a discussion
05:57:02 <ehird> ...and the best way to end two lines is three lines
05:57:16 <Pthing> also nobody cares about theology apparently
05:57:24 <Pthing> a controversial statement if ever there were one
05:57:36 <madbrain> pascal's wager is the mathematical form of "subscribe to our religion, or else.."
05:57:50 <ehird> it's not as if people still seriously bring up pascal's wager. it's not as if religion has a massive influence on humanity
05:57:53 <ehird> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnopppppppppppe
05:58:44 <oklopol> i want to convert something totally crazy
05:59:35 <ehird> no, scientists practice scientogy
06:00:11 <coppro> Agora needs a Major General Stanley reference
06:00:12 <oklopol> i mean my heart is the heart of a scientist, obviously i'm not yet an official one.
06:00:32 <ehird> you need a lab coat
06:00:35 <ehird> that counts as your registration
06:01:10 <ehird> anyone who would buy a lab coat is clearly someone to be certified as an Officially Licensed Practitioner of Science, or scientist for short
06:01:17 <ehird> madbrain: hurr reading comprehension fail
06:01:21 <oklopol> madbrain: don't say things like that near ehird
06:01:41 <oklopol> ehird: well you notice them and punish
06:01:43 <ehird> also technically the scientific method is just as arbitrary as any religion, but it's less, you know, retarded.
06:02:06 <ehird> [05:59] oklopol: maybe scientology
06:02:06 <ehird> [05:59] oklopol: cuz i'm scientist
06:02:09 <ehird> he didn't say science, he said scientology
06:03:45 <oklopol> maybe i should start doing science-ology, and never make it clear whether i just mean i do science or some sort of extreme scientology
06:04:02 <ehird> scienceology is totally hardcore
06:04:55 <oklopol> anyway i don't really believe in nonexact science, actually i have a rather hard time even believing mathematical proofs even after understanding them, unless they're trivial
06:05:04 <ehird> madbrain: you like ..s as much as bsmntbombdood likes ...s
06:05:22 <Pthing> you are operating with some weird definition of belief then
06:05:43 <oklopol> Pthing: how can i know i raed it right?
06:05:59 <Pthing> how can you know you read anything right
06:06:03 <oklopol> or that anyone ever did... WHAT IF EVERYONE ALWAYS MADE THE SAME ERROR
06:06:05 <Pthing> like maybe you are reading the pictures
06:06:12 <Pthing> and the thing you think are the pictures
06:06:26 <ehird> you just got me high... with words
06:06:28 <ehird> or are they pictures
06:06:32 <ehird> hmm maybe this is the channel list...
06:08:30 <oklopol> i seriously can't understand what you meant
06:08:45 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
06:09:18 <oklopol> you mean "what if you always read all the math you read, completely wrong"? great counterargument to my not believing in math!
06:09:46 <Rugxulo> hey, what are the bot commands in here?
06:09:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
06:09:52 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
06:09:55 <madbrain> one thing I don't get is avant garde composers
06:09:56 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
06:09:59 <ehird> Rugxulo: there are many bots
06:10:04 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
06:10:05 <HackEgo> File: dirNode: TopThis is the top of the INFO tree \ This (the Directory node) gives a menu of major topics. \ Typing "q" exits, "?" lists all Info commands, "d" returns here, \ "mCoreutils<Return>" visits Coreutils topic, etc. \ Or click mouse button 2 on a menu item or cross reference to select \ it.
06:10:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:10:28 <ehird> fungot is the one written in befunge.
06:11:14 <ehird> `run perl -e 'say "hi!"'
06:11:16 <madbrain> one thing I don't get is avant garde composers... do they believe in themselves or are they charlatans?
06:11:24 <HackEgo> Summary of my perl5 (revision 5 version 10 subversion 0) configuration: \ Platform: \ osname=linux, osvers=2.6.26-1-vserver-amd64, archname=x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ uname='linux excelsior 2.6.26-1-vserver-amd64 #1 smp sat jan 10 19:46:42 utc 2009 x86_64 gnulinux ' \ config_args='-Dusethreads -Duselargefiles
06:11:29 <ehird> madbrain: Avant garde composers are interesting and their music is interesting.
06:11:32 <ehird> what's not to get about them
06:11:50 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
06:11:51 <pikhq> madbrain: Avant garde composers do very unique things with music. What's not to get?
06:11:59 <ehird> so does your mom ahahahahem.
06:12:09 <madbrain> dunno, I generally find their music hugely disappointing
06:12:14 <Rugxulo> ,,,"."+*68*2%5.+*84/5:_5/84*+.,@
06:12:40 <ehird> HackEgo runs Linux commands.
06:12:44 <ehird> EgoBot runs esolangs.
06:12:49 <ehird> fungot runs esolangs and babbles.
06:13:15 <ehird> Download figlet, compile it and you can use it.
06:13:30 <Pthing> sure i know i can use it, i just wanted to see if the robot could
06:14:04 <HackEgo> Using built-in specs. \ Target: x86_64-linux-gnu \ Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Debian 4.3.3-10' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.3/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr --enable-shared --enable-multiarch --with-system-zlib --libexecdir=/usr/lib
06:14:30 <Rugxulo> `run /usr/bin/gcc --dumpversion
06:14:44 <ehird> `run gcc --dumpversion 2>&1
06:14:45 <Rugxulo> `run /usr/bin/gcc --dumpversion 2>&1
06:14:59 <madbrain> pikhq: well, it's kinda like listening to this guy making weird sounds with a huge modular synth... sure, the technology is interesting, and he makes some original sounds... but often times it's hard to distinguish between that and some synth plugin with randomized settings
06:15:10 <Rugxulo> (sorry for flooding the channel with this cruft, just curious)
06:15:20 <ehird> madbrain: If you don't like it, don't listen.
06:15:53 <ehird> So don't complain.
06:16:03 <Pthing> how am i supposed to get figlet on if i can't wget
06:16:03 <madbrain> But I find it sad that they squat all those avenues for new music.
06:16:14 <ehird> Pthing: there's a command to dl
06:16:17 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
06:16:21 <ehird> madbrain: Squat them?
06:16:40 <ehird> Are you saying somehow that avant garde... waste... avenues for new music?
06:17:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/'"$1" \ else \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/' \ fi
06:17:13 <madbrain> Well, mostly I think they should do better music
06:17:14 <ehird> what's it called again
06:17:28 <ehird> No, it's a special command
06:17:36 <ehird> madbrain: So you are the singular judge for what is good music?
06:17:50 <ehird> Considered that you might be a bit of an authoritarian?
06:18:16 <madbrain> Well, can I at least expect something distinguishable from pure random notes?
06:18:30 <ehird> Nope. The composers don't haev to answer to your whims.
06:19:08 <madbrain> Well, I don't critique people that compose better than me.
06:19:50 <ehird> So basically, your definition of better = is like the status quo.
06:20:14 <Pthing> "it just sounds like a bunch of random notes"
06:20:29 <Pthing> centuries old code for "i don't like this, it sounds weird"
06:20:33 <ehird> In the 50s you'd be complaining that you wished rock 'n roll composers would make songs indistinguishable from hitting the same three notes again and again.
06:20:56 <madbrain> Well, am I complaining against rap? Or metal?
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06:21:16 <ehird> you know how predictable this conversation is?
06:21:22 <madbrain> These styles don't appeal to me but at least they're... musically honest
06:21:36 <ehird> you're musically douchebag, tell that to John Cage's face
06:21:45 <ehird> in his grave i guess
06:22:15 <Rugxulo> just because somebody paints the Madonna and smears elephant dung on it doesn't make it "art"
06:22:43 <ehird> Rugxulo: yeah, art is stuff that was produced with techniques that existed in the 1300s, dammit!
06:22:44 <madbrain> What I complain about is that they try too hard to be original, to the detriment of being good
06:22:50 <ehird> toe the boundaries!
06:22:53 <madbrain> basically, their output turns to white noise
06:23:07 <ehird> madbrain: you say that because you don't like it, but it isn't true
06:23:10 <pikhq> The same argument has been said of most forms of music, madbrain.
06:23:54 <Pthing> i found the growliest metal yesterday
06:23:58 <Pthing> it was really quite something
06:24:28 * pikhq is not a huge fan of death metal; gimme some Led Zeppelin.
06:24:34 <Pthing> http://www.cockandball.de/media/cbt_tampont.mp3
06:24:48 <Rugxulo> lol, the name says it all :-P
06:24:52 <Pthing> the second verse is better
06:25:21 <oklopol> Pthing: dogs :) <<< do you want this one? god i hate carrying its shit
06:25:39 * pikhq makes a computer hate him by running 8 different mencoder jobs in parallel
06:25:48 <ehird> wikipedia classes this band as
06:26:14 <pikhq> Hooray, encoding an entire TV series at once.
06:27:34 <madbrain> Well, it's like this guy who wrote a tremolo between two notes, and of course it had to be a tritone
06:27:57 <ehird> you're boring madbrain
06:27:59 <ehird> booooooooooooooooooooooring
06:28:19 <ehird> stop making music that's too different
06:28:24 <ehird> you're being unappealing to my ears ON PURPOSE
06:28:29 <ehird> pretentious asswipes!
06:29:17 <pikhq> IT ALL WENT WRONG WHEN THAT DAMNED FOOL THRUG STARTED USING "NOTES" INSTEAD OF BEATING STICK ON STICK.
06:29:42 <madbrain> well, there's a difference between being original, and being totally disconnected from what is good or bad
06:29:58 <madbrain> and having no idea what you're doing
06:30:04 <pikhq> And what that difference is one of the single most subjective things in music.
06:30:31 <ehird> having no idea what you're doing
06:30:34 <Rugxulo> ,,,"."+*68*2%5.+*84/5:_5/84*+.,@
06:30:39 <ehird> your ego is massively inflated
06:30:49 <ehird> first you implied that you can compose better than avant garde composers
06:30:55 <ehird> and now you're saying none of them have any idea what they're doing
06:30:57 <Rugxulo> ,,,"."+*68*2%5.+*84/5:_5/84*+.,@
06:31:08 <ehird> you do realise why that's failing, right?
06:31:24 <ehird> `befunge http://url
06:32:46 <Rugxulo> sorry, never mind, continue
06:34:13 <ehird> does anybody actually use key repeating?
06:34:37 <madbrain> helps a lot with the ergonomy of some software
06:35:28 <madbrain> Well, I can think of Impulse Tracker in particular
06:35:56 <madbrain> Basically keyboard based software with lots of arrow navigation
06:36:22 <madbrain> I like maximum rate minimum delay
06:36:33 <ehird> I never use it when typing normally, at least.
06:36:40 <ehird> I mean, disregarding bad software.
06:37:18 <madbrain> Dunno, holding down pgup/pgdn is practical and useful
06:37:26 <ehird> For giving you a headache.
06:37:39 <Rugxulo> `bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.+++.+.+++++++++.--------------. sux0rz
06:37:51 <Rugxulo> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.+++.+.+++++++++.--------------. sux0rz
06:37:51 <ehird> Learn. Your. Bots.
06:38:14 <ehird> how was that even a joke ;|
06:38:51 <Rugxulo> dunno, maybe I should call it "art", j00 k10z3-m1nd3d f00l!
06:39:21 <ehird> i note that all of the "blaaaaaa modern art isn't art" people cannot ever give a satisfactory definition of art
06:39:53 <madbrain> who cares about the definition of art
06:41:14 <ehird> i doubt you'd define avant garde composers' work as art.
06:41:21 <ehird> so clearly you care
06:41:53 <Rugxulo> !bf +++++++[>+++++++<-]>+++.--. the meaning of life
06:42:13 <ehird> i want to make like 50 avant garde compositions nnow just so you can weep about how i've closed so many avenues for new music
06:42:25 <ehird> because, you know, those avenues are scarce!
06:42:40 <ehird> Rugxulo: no, the answer to life, the universe and everything
06:42:45 <ehird> not the meaning of life
06:42:48 <pikhq> It's not like there's more possible songs than there are atoms in the universe or anything!
06:43:56 <ehird> You mean infinity is greater than ~2^80?
06:44:00 <ehird> <italics>shocked</italics>
06:44:01 <Rugxulo> madbrain, you still use IT??
06:44:05 <ehird> we need colours in here :(((
06:44:35 <madbrain> rugxulo: I haven't kicked the habit yet
06:45:07 <ehird> wake up and smell the dosbo
06:45:37 * Rugxulo has it214v5.zip from Sep. 2004, assumes that's the latest
06:45:58 <madbrain> rugxulo: I keep an old PC to run it
06:46:25 <Rugxulo> I don't blame you, just a little surprised
06:46:35 <ehird> personally i find tracker-style interfaces crazy
06:47:02 <ehird> [[The software was distributed as freeware, though for a fee the author supplies extra features, such as support for WAV output and IPX networks. After the stereo WAV writer plugin was publicly pirated,[citation needed] the original author announced that he would discontinue development after version 2.14.]]
06:47:10 <ehird> oh so very butthurt
06:47:22 <Rugxulo> I'm sure he had other reasons too
06:47:49 <coppro> draft = MTGO beta draft
06:48:10 <ehird> you make no sense to me
06:48:11 <Rugxulo> actually, the only part updated since 1999 (apparently) is KEYBOARD.ZIP, everything else is old
06:48:22 <coppro> ehird: Jupiter is a piece of music
06:48:34 <ehird> it's just, you know
06:48:38 <ehird> you expressing your love for a planet
06:48:46 <ehird> was kinda incomprehensible?
06:48:49 <ehird> Rugxulo: last release was 1999, says wp
06:51:20 <madbrain> but yeah, Trackers tend to be kinda hexadecimal and stuff like that, but they're not bad on the musical expression side
06:51:44 <madbrain> And they're good for rapidly composing music
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06:53:05 <Rugxulo> madbrain, what soundcard does your "vintage" PC have?
06:54:14 <Rugxulo> I assume you've also heard of Adlib Tracker II, Dr. Track, etc.
06:54:44 <madbrain> Yeah I've done some nice music on adlib tracker II
06:55:01 <madbrain> Mostly trying to exploit that crazy 4 operator mode
06:55:20 <ehird> coppro: did you receive the video?
06:56:19 <coppro> hey, it's actually progressing at a reasonable rate
06:56:24 <coppro> that's like... impossible
06:56:33 <ehird> I've never seen upload speeds this good...
06:56:48 <ehird> coppro: what's your downstream?
06:57:07 <madbrain> rugxulo: do you have any songs?
06:57:19 <Rugxulo> that I wrote? nothing good, no
06:57:41 <ehird> 60KiB/s upload on an ADSL connection
06:57:44 * Rugxulo can't remember the Linux IT clone's name
06:57:51 <ehird> coppro: what's your connection, what's its speed
06:58:16 <coppro> DSL I think, and a pretty good connection
06:58:24 <coppro> but this is Canada, the land of Don't Get What You Pay For
06:58:49 <ehird> i'm on an 8Mb/somethingMb plan
06:58:59 <ehird> soon should be 24Mb/2.5Mb
06:59:23 <madbrain> canada isn't great for mobile phones or fast internet, no
06:59:29 <ehird> coppro: so, theoretically, I could send this at 320KiB/s soon :-P
06:59:34 <madbrain> has other comparative advantages
06:59:37 <ehird> huge emphasis on theoretically...
07:00:11 <ehird> "1,000,000 players in a year's time self-organising a tournament of Fortress to be held in one day, the champion team winning THE CUP and £16,000 per player, with post-dated funding of server admin, programming-developers, and game-designers."
07:00:21 <ehird> 16,000 * 1 million
07:00:37 <ehird> = the winner wins £16,000,000,000
07:01:01 <coppro> you sent two requests. the abort message was the other one
07:01:11 <ehird> i didn't do a thingg
07:01:18 <ehird> colloquy handled it all for me
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07:13:14 <madbrain> are the violins in the holst/the planets/mars intro playing col legno?
07:24:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: Re. does the compiler course still target Sparc: no, it targets an apparently custom stack machine called SLX (http://ace.cs.hut.fi/T-106.4200/project/guide-to-slx.html)
07:24:20 <Deewiant> (I forgot to respond before going to bed, apparently)
07:30:07 <ehird> personally i think that retards
07:36:11 <augur> http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Media/Mars.mp3 << my personal favorite rendition of the piece
07:43:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, that's a shame; I liked the Sparc parts. (Though there weren't really much of those, a sort of "runtime library" was already provided by the course people.)
07:44:41 <coppro> such speed belongs to Jupiter
07:45:19 <augur> i like it for mars
07:45:21 <fizzie> ehird: And fungot didn't "crash", I just still don't have a power supply for the box it should be running on, and don't feel like doing any temporary arrangements, since all the babbling models and such are only on that one disk.
07:45:24 <augur> its not even terribly fast
07:46:19 <madbrain> haha the speed up on the second crescendo :D
07:54:10 <augur> i really wish i had a tv show about space and big wars and so forth
07:54:22 <augur> i would really love to use holst's mars in such a thing
07:54:37 <coppro> it's been used in Mario games
07:54:47 <augur> i refuse to accept this.
07:55:57 <madbrain> It appears (in midi) in a level of commander keen 5
07:57:12 <coppro> it sounds really awesome in Galaxy
07:57:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
07:58:26 <Ilari> MIDI? Does Commander Keen 5 use MIDI? I thought it used OPL for music...
07:59:27 <madbrain> well, yeah it plays on opl2, but I think the data it plays is MIDI
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08:00:26 <Ilari> Probably converted. Playing MIDI with OPL2 would probably be too complicated for game...
08:01:23 <madbrain> midi isn't that complicated and they probably just licensed a playing engine from someone no?
08:02:10 <Ilari> Soundblaster fun: There are early and late versions of Soundblaster Pro. The first versions implemented stereo music by having dual OPL2s, one wired to left channel and one to right. The later models had one OPL3...
08:02:45 <madbrain> I wonder which models are more common
08:03:07 <Ilari> I think the ones with OPL3...
08:04:23 <Ilari> And its much easier to play music using OPL when data is already suitable for it and not having to parse MIDI.
08:05:24 <madbrain> Hm it's true that you could pre-compute the register writes
08:05:36 <madbrain> I think the file size would go up though
08:06:04 <Ilari> No real need to have raw register writes, just something very close to how OPL does things...
08:07:38 <madbrain> It might be something like cmf (.mid but with opl2 patches built in)
08:09:58 <madbrain> Or other similar rare formats such as ".rol", whatever that is
08:09:59 <Ilari> Even if filesize would be larger, I don't think it would be that critical. And besides, OPL sound data is nowhere near full PCM data in size...
08:11:07 <Deewiant> Yep, IMF: http://www.vgmpf.com/Game.php?Id=CommanderKeen5-DOS
08:14:58 <madbrain> well, yeah, compared to formats with pcm it's light
08:15:26 <madbrain> Although complicated .mids (like, virt-complicated) can grow to 100k just from the note data
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08:18:03 <Ilari> PCM size depends on parameters used. But CD-quality is ~10.6MB/min and to even get decent sound, one needs ~2MB/min.
08:18:45 <madbrain> which they only really started to use when they had games on CDs so that they had the space
08:19:42 <Ilari> Yeah, there are lossless packing formats that can squeeze it few times and lossy formats that can pack them a lot. But those require computer power to decode (at least Pentium-class).
08:20:19 <madbrain> it's better to use ADPCM, which afaik a lot of psx games did
08:20:36 <Ilari> CD-ROMs can also have music tracks. E.g. Quake 2 CD had music as ordinary CD music tracks (the CD had 11 tracks, track #1 was data, the rest where music).
08:21:55 <madbrain> There's always the intermediary format where you use samples as instruments and add in music data
08:23:08 <coppro> yeah, I've seen that before
08:23:32 <madbrain> (see: snes, psx games with sequenced music, some PC games, NDS games, etc)
08:25:37 <Ilari> .STM, .S3M, .IT, .MOD, .XM, etc?
08:25:58 <madbrain> and the equivalent .mid + .dls
08:26:54 <Ilari> Darn that I can't find Screamtracker 2 prerelease demo anywhere. Had some songs...
08:27:11 <madbrain> somebody actually used scream tracker 2? :D
08:27:38 <Ilari> Never used scream tracker 2, but used the prerelease demo...
08:29:44 <madbrain> deewiant: I've only seen a few of those. They're rather outnumbered by .s3ms
08:30:26 <Deewiant> Evidently 42 in the mod archive
08:31:21 <Ilari> Whee.. Found rotate.stm. Now I need Screamtracker 3 to try to load and resave it into something that SDL_Mixer can actually play...
08:31:49 <Deewiant> Why do you need to play it with SDL_Mixer :-P
08:33:44 <madbrain> almost all of that kind of music is mod/s3m/xm/it
08:34:54 <madbrain> Except a couple of .MTMs by kenny chou (which convert easily to s3m or at least xm)
08:35:05 <Deewiant> But a lot of stuff is called .mod without being from protracker
08:36:31 <Deewiant> For other rare ones, there's .ahx, .med, .669, .hvl
08:37:13 <Ilari> The standard issue music player I use uses SDL_Mixer (statically linked!)
08:38:45 <madbrain> mo3 is mod/s3m/xm/it with samples compressed as mp3
08:40:07 <madbrain> afaik it's proprietary to one of the playback libraries and hasn't really caught on too much
08:52:11 <Ilari> Isn't the name of audio codec Oggs usually use Vorbis?
08:53:34 <Ilari> The usual video codec is Theora, but ocassionally one might run into Snow or Dirac as well..
08:55:44 <Ilari> And regarding Dirac. SW Encoders seem to be crap and decoding seems very CPU-heavy.
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08:56:53 <Ilari> And Snow doesn't even have stable bitstream yet.
08:59:21 <madbrain> what happened to the mpeg 7 (or was it 4?) audio thing... the one that was supposed to do synthesis and stuff?
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09:06:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you count the .it's too?
09:06:32 <Ilari> CPU-heavy => decoding 1080p/30 Dirac realtime requires pretty much all the CPU power (all cores) of current high-end PC.
09:07:28 <Ilari> (and that's with quad-core)...
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09:09:13 <madbrain> ilari: yeah, that's probably too cpu heavy
09:12:26 <fizzie> Not related, but: good that I didn't release that rfk86-with-compression code; I just did some trivial optimizations to the single-bit reading, and got the innermost part from 28 bytes (109..136 cycles) to 16 bytes (73..107 cycles), and the multi-bit loop above that from 8 bytes (36..37 cycles) to 4 bytes (21 cycles).
09:12:31 <Ilari> Fractal distribution?
09:25:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fizzie: trying to compress music?
09:25:40 <fizzie> No; I did say "not related" there.
09:26:03 <fizzie> I don't really know what the music discussion was about, wasn't here when it started and I don't really bother with logreading.
09:29:38 <madbrain> is anyone interested in physical modeling synthesis?
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10:09:09 <ehird> i think i have cronic laziness
10:10:49 <ehird> also chronic dropping keys
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10:13:58 <ehird> like, it took me three minutes just to open a terminal and cd Cod
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10:29:11 <ehird> you know what suck? licenses
10:29:15 <ehird> what sucks, i guess
10:31:19 <ehird> http://cr.yp.to/patents/tarzian.html
10:34:21 <ehird> " As you are probably aware, raisins and bran have different densities.
10:34:21 <ehird> Vigorous shaking of a box of raisin bran, such as the shaking that
10:34:21 <ehird> happens naturally during a truck shipment, will eventually separate the
10:34:22 <ehird> raisins from the bran, to the annoyance of the eventual raisin-bran
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10:42:06 <ehird> Has anyone made a table of all the printable ASCII x86 instructions? Alphabetical? Alphanumerical?
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10:45:42 <fizzie> I've just seen some ordered-by-opcode tables, which I guess could be used to find printable opcodes reasonably easily; I haven't seen anything that would list in an easy-to-read format what sort of operand encodings are possible, though.
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10:47:16 <fizzie> http://ref.x86asm.net/coder.html is probably the most comprehensive ordered-by-opcode table I've seen.
10:48:55 <fizzie> For actual printable-x86 coding, a ordered-by-mnemonic list of the valid regions would be a lot friendlier, of course.
10:49:35 <fizzie> Maybe you should write a script (or better yet, an XSLT stylesheet!) that transforms http://ref.x86asm.net/x86reference.xml into such a table.
10:50:38 <ehird> well i lied when i said tables, i hate tables
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11:46:35 * ehird tries a little app where you tell it your indoor lighting, your location, and it adjusts your display's colour to account for the current lighting based on the brightness of the sun
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12:59:43 <ehird> http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mcnpek I like how there's an outdent on the Windows key. no wait, it's retarded
13:11:01 <Deewiant> I almost never use that key since it's in such an awkward position anyway
13:11:30 <ehird> Deewiant: BTW, you said the zero series filcos were dodgy; why?
13:12:03 <ehird> Although I don't really care; if I can replace that Windows key (looks like the other modifiers are of equal size, so...) this thing is practically bought.
13:12:04 <Deewiant> Y'know, the key cchattering business.
13:12:45 <Deewiant> That was an authentic chatter, too :-P
13:13:13 <ehird> Listening to some YouTube videos (you know, those incredibly accurate indicators of typing noise) it seems like the Majestouches go clack or cluck instead of click like, say, the Das Keyboard. (Hard to express, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9C7sNHjiAo for an example)
13:13:22 <ehird> Which is nice, because I hate the high-pitched clicks my Model M makes.
13:14:19 <ehird> Videos of the actual model in question:
13:14:20 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWn2N4kYHqk#t=1m15s
13:14:23 <Deewiant> All the blues I've heard sound different :-P
13:14:30 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zLzB3wHFh0
13:14:45 <ehird> Sure, it's more clicky there, but still fine and besides, that can be chalked up to recording differences.
13:15:02 <ehird> Either way, the sound is perfectly cromulent.
13:15:13 <Deewiant> The previous link sounds like a blue, the one before that doesn't.
13:15:30 <ehird> There are three links; clarirfy.
13:15:39 <ehird> Talk about chattering!
13:15:49 <Deewiant> You think that'sss chattering? No, thhihsi iis scchatterinngn
13:15:55 <ehird> Wow your keyboard sucks.
13:15:57 <ehird> Anyway, the latter two links are of the exact same model, so I know for a fact
13:16:05 <ehird> Anyway, the latter two links are of the exact same model, so I know for a fact that any differences are due to recording
13:16:24 <ehird> And they're similar enough to the first, accounting for the fact that the first is ubercompressed and appears to have been recorded shoddierly than the latter tow
13:16:47 <Deewiant> I'm missing the high-pitched click in the first
13:16:47 <ehird> I picked the first to demonstrate the general "cluck" sound deliberately, since it's more pronounced there, so as to contrast with the common "click".
13:16:53 <ehird> The first has none, that's the point.
13:16:59 <ehird> They all are the same switches.
13:17:11 <ehird> I'm saying that I prefer it to the Model M and the Das Keyboard, both of which click.
13:17:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, source:
13:17:28 <ehird> ... DVD combo || Corsair 850 HX || M-Audio AV30 || Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Click "Otaku" -FKBN87MC/NPEK Cherry Blue Switch || logitech mx revolution ...
13:17:28 <ehird> www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1034181502 - Cached - Similar -
13:17:31 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6312
13:17:37 <ehird> but going from black to blue is almost like going from rubber dome to blacks for me.
13:17:47 <ehird> http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mcnpek
13:17:54 <ehird> Which I guess is, uh, rather more authoritative a souce
13:18:20 <ehird> Anyway, there's no imported models or whathoo, so I guess I'll have to dive into the Japanternets to find one.
13:18:23 <Deewiant> Weird. I'll chalk it up to the recording; every blue I've heard sounds like the latter two.
13:18:45 <ehird> As I said: I realise that's why it sounds like that.
13:18:54 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.keyboardco.com/ doesn't have any?
13:18:58 <ehird> However, the first is SIMILAR to the latter two; vastly moreso than their similarity to the clicky type.
13:19:03 <ehird> So I used it to demonstrate the cluck sound.
13:19:28 <ehird> returned no results
13:19:51 <Deewiant> Oh right, tenkeyless blue cherries
13:19:54 <ehird> Not in their product list, either.
13:20:05 <Deewiant> elitekeyboards.com or whatever
13:20:09 <ehird> Yes, they have no models
13:20:27 <ehird> They don't even exist? Physically?
13:20:29 <Deewiant> It was special-ordered by them.
13:20:32 <ehird> Anyway, it's possible that the first video, being a different model (but still Majestouch), uses different switches.
13:20:40 <ehird> Deewiant: Special-ordered == limited edition?
13:20:53 <Deewiant> Something like that. Only elitekeyboards.com has ever had them.
13:21:04 <ehird> I mean, now that they're out of stock, will they ever be brought back?
13:21:13 <ehird> "NO STOCK. Preorder available soon."
13:21:14 <Deewiant> Probably, since I think there's high demand
13:21:25 <Deewiant> I'd get one if there were a 91-key model
13:21:26 <ehird> I wonder if hovering money in their faces would help. :P
13:21:34 <ehird> Deewiant: And I'm glad their isn't! HA!
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13:21:56 <ehird> A view into my OCD-filled mind: I am so tempted to get rid of those labels on the two LEDs and the FILCO logo.
13:22:02 <ehird> I want my completely black keyboard, dammit.
13:22:20 <Deewiant> ehird: The first video is browns according to the title
13:22:31 <ehird> Rightyho, I can't read moon language
13:22:35 <ehird> What's browns? Tactile but non-clicky?
13:22:54 <ehird> Yeah. Doesn't matter, anyway.
13:23:06 <ehird> I'd classify the first link as cluck, the latter two as clack, and Model M/Das Keyboards as click.
13:23:25 <Deewiant> I'd want clicky for the fun factor but the Zs ssuscckc ass, so.
13:24:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I'd be interested to hear whether the non-clickiness impairs typing or the tactile feel (psychologically).
13:24:25 <Deewiant> Well, the switches are different in more ways than clickiness
13:24:35 <ehird> Anyway, only the tactile clicks are available in Otaku (hate that name btw) so I'm not really tempted to get one of the other models./
13:24:51 <ehird> I *could* buy one of the non-Otakus and get Otaku keycaps, but really now.
13:25:04 <ehird> (I'll have to get at least one keycap to remove that awful bump.)
13:25:22 <Deewiant> Otaku = no text on the caps? Didn't see those at diatec.co.jp
13:26:14 <ehird> Yeah. I guess it's only the socially inept nerds with a fondness for Japanese culture that like blank keycaps.
13:26:17 <Deewiant> I wouldn't worry about the bump until after you've tried it
13:26:30 <ehird> Okay, come to think of it, I'm going to shut up; that's too close to a description of me for comfort.
13:26:35 <Deewiant> Like said, I've remapped my keys so I hardly even use it.
13:26:41 <ehird> Deewiant: I used another keyboard with the bump and it made me RAGE
13:27:09 <Deewiant> ehird: Yessssss but that's not this keyboard
13:27:09 <ehird> Deewiant has found his inner snake-nature.
13:27:12 <ehird> Deewiant: The bump on this one is even taller.
13:27:17 <Deewiant> I meant to put only 3 or so but it ccchatttered
13:27:20 <ehird> It'll be like a pregnant key.
13:27:28 <Deewiant> And I didn't care enough to backspace
13:27:42 <ehird> If I hit it a lot, maybe that'll be like giving it a key abortion
13:27:47 <ehird> As it flattens out; think jwz-style.
13:27:47 <Deewiant> Anyway, I think you're more likely to be annoyed by the key's position than its bump
13:28:03 <ehird> Well, for instance, that key is useful in OS X to type special characters.
13:28:17 <ehird> Also as the most common extra modifier key along with command.
13:28:38 <Deewiant> Repeat after me: WHAT THE KEYCAP SAYS MATTERS NOT
13:29:18 <ehird> It is a physical bump
13:29:25 <ehird> On a key with the shape of a modifier key
13:29:29 <ehird> I could only sacrifice another modifier key for it
13:29:43 <ehird> I guess I could swap one with the Menu key, but that still leaves one pregnant key.
13:30:01 <ehird> Anyway, the keycap doesn't say shit, you know, being blank and all.
13:30:27 <ehird> (I don't really care about the coolness factor but you *can* feel the label if you rub them slightly and they rub off anyway so might as well get it without, seeing as I don't need them.)
13:30:37 <ehird> (And, well, okay, I do care a little bit about the coolness factor.)
13:31:31 <Deewiant> Of course the bump won't go away
13:31:41 <ehird> Yes, well, that's an Issue.
13:31:46 <Deewiant> My point is that if you put something like the Menu key on it it won't matter.
13:31:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but there are two keys with the bump, and only one menu key, you see.
13:32:02 <Deewiant> Unless you obsessively stare at your keyboard while on the computer, seeking any manner of blemish?
13:32:10 <ehird> And it's the shape of a modifier key, you see.
13:32:18 <ehird> So there isn't really anything I could do about the other bumpy key. You see.
13:32:23 <Deewiant> Oh, ha, that's not an issue with the 91-key version.
13:32:35 <ehird> Yes, well, your mother isn't an issue with the 91-key version.
13:33:46 <Deewiant> Too bad my mom is an issue with your 87-key
13:33:50 <ehird> The pregnant key represents YOUR PREGNANT MOTHER
13:33:59 <ehird> And it is an ISSUE
13:34:24 <ehird> Meanwhile, a cat video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSMCRD35ch4
13:39:01 <ehird> Has anyone made a keyboard capable of pressing every key at once successfully?
13:40:23 <ehird> Just press every key at once, dammit.
13:40:45 <Deewiant> I lack the required amount of fingers :-P
13:40:53 <ehird> Use something to press them down.
13:41:33 <Deewiant> I don't wanna press ctrl+alt+del
13:41:42 <ehird> Test it on non-Windows
13:41:50 <ehird> With Ctrl+Alt+Backspace disabled
13:42:11 <Deewiant> I'm not on windows, I don't wanna mess with settings just for this.
13:42:34 <ehird> You'd need to write a program to tell whether you've hit all of them anyway
13:42:44 <ehird> Besides, Ubuntu ships that way by default. :P
13:43:43 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, arbitrary letters work well enough.
13:45:18 <fizzie> I seem to remember that the TI-86 keyboard is pretty jam-free. (There's a key matrix, but it's scanned by software; you just write a bitmask of which rows you want to fire electricity into to port 6, then wait a couple of nops and read from port 6 back out a bitmap of which keys were pressed on those rows, all or'd together; there's no keyboard controller to turn it into keycodes that would mess it up.)
13:45:54 <ehird> I wish elitekeyboards would tell you how much a keyboard cost while it was in stock.
13:46:15 <ehird> http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?pid=fkbn104mcnpek_special
13:46:19 <ehird> I guess roughly $129.
13:46:27 <ehird> "Special Edition", "Special Limited Edition".
13:46:36 <ehird> I'm thinkin': like fuck is the other one gonna be back iin stock.
13:46:43 <ehird> Whereby like fuck means not
13:46:55 <ehird> Topre keyboards utilize silkly-smooth Topre Capacitive switch technology for the ultimate typing experience.
13:47:02 <ehird> I wonder what capitative switches are like
13:47:25 <ehird> http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1700
13:47:45 <ehird> Topre capacitive key switches are a patented hybrid between a mechanical spring based switch, a rubber dome switch, and a capacitive sensor
13:47:49 <ehird> why is this abomination.
13:48:36 <ehird> http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mceb the non-otaku version is limited edition too\
13:48:44 <ehird> i guess preorder available soon is yay.
13:48:58 <ehird> so is http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb the one you're getting in 91 key
13:49:30 <ehird> I wonder why nobody is a mouse geek, like there are keyboard geeks :P
13:51:03 <ehird> why aren't all wireless mice bluetooth
13:53:35 <ehird> has anyone used a fancy mousemat
13:53:39 <ehird> like those glass ones
13:53:46 <ehird> or those weird textured ones
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13:54:33 <ehird> what kind, is it any good
13:54:48 <Deewiant> Steelseries something or other
13:55:00 <Ilari> Modern microcontroller could control similar process in real keyboard. But that would take few dollars of extra components... :-/
13:55:03 <Deewiant> It's better than the crap cloth ones I used to use :-P
13:55:09 <Ilari> *few dollars worth
13:55:11 <ehird> Deewiant: But isn't it, like, slippery?
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13:55:22 <ehird> I mean, you'd think some friction would be good.
13:55:44 <ehird> True, but it's still glass.
13:55:53 <ehird> I mean, it's still really smooth.
13:56:09 <ehird> Or... the pictures look quite grainy.
13:56:44 <ehird> Like, presumably it isn't the kind of glass in glasses and window panes.
13:56:49 <ehird> Because the pictures look too grainy for that.
13:56:54 <Deewiant> If there's crap on it I wipe or scratch it off
13:57:16 <ehird> that was a joke right
13:57:22 <ehird> I mean how is the glass' texture
13:57:35 <ehird> Apparently they're "frosted glass", but that's rather vague
13:57:35 <Deewiant> It was an intentional misunderstanding of "treated", yes
13:57:47 <ehird> Specifications for SteelSeries Experience I-2:
13:57:48 <ehird> - Surface treatment: Trade secret
13:57:55 <ehird> Fuck you, steelseries.com
13:58:26 <ehird> Well, what's the feel of it? I mean, I'm not asking a hard question here. Running your finger over, is it silky smooth, like sandpaper or what :P
13:58:43 <ehird> Then howforth is it becometh frosted
13:58:52 <ehird> THESE QUESTIONS ARE IMPORTANT TO SOCIETY
13:59:16 <Deewiant> I don't know anything about glass.
13:59:27 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frosted_glass
13:59:29 <ehird> Also you don't have a sense of touch. Aight then
13:59:38 <Deewiant> I said it's smooth, what else do you want
13:59:51 <ehird> Okay, so it's regular glass smooth, the frosting is just so it's not transparent.
14:00:01 <Deewiant> Barring any accumulated dirt and shit it's completely smooth
14:00:20 <ehird> Ehh, this conversation is less productive than the $39.99 it costs :-P
14:00:29 <ehird> It's just that they have so many, strikes indecision in a person and whatnot.
14:00:41 <ehird> Aa! You scared me.
14:00:43 <Deewiant> Find a place where you can try 'em
14:00:47 <ais523> I'm getting a flood of 419s, and legitimate emails disguised as 419s
14:00:50 <ehird> Deewiant: In... the UK?
14:00:53 <ais523> by using similar subject lines
14:01:00 <Deewiant> ehird: Hey, I found one in /Finland/.
14:01:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Finland, the home of Assembly.
14:01:20 <ais523> what's this debate about?
14:01:20 <ehird> Britain, the home of RAIN AND BAD FOOD.
14:01:27 <ehird> ais523: We're not debating, actually!
14:01:30 <ehird> A refreshing change.
14:01:38 <ehird> ais523: Expensive mouse pads.
14:01:39 <ais523> actually, I rather like rain
14:01:56 <ehird> Specifically, $39.99 10" x 12" mouse pads made out of ice.
14:01:57 <oklokok> rain is the best possible weather
14:02:05 <ehird> Although ice WOULD be cooler.
14:02:06 <Deewiant> ehird: Finland, where computer-parts are 10x more unpossible to find than in the UK.
14:02:15 <ais523> an ice mouse pad would need some sort of refrigeration
14:02:33 <ehird> ais523: Just use the phase change coolers all the overclockers use
14:02:46 <ehird> Hook a CPU up to it, hook a mousemat up to it. Brr!
14:02:47 <ais523> ehird: heh, you could use a saltwater-ice phase change cooler
14:02:53 <ais523> to cool your water-ice mousepad
14:03:05 <Deewiant> Can't think of any in the UK tho.
14:03:07 <ehird> even seen a picture of a CPU hooked up to a phase changer cooler?
14:03:39 <ehird> basically, imagine a large refridgerator unit, a really thick cable going into a computer case, which then ends up in a huge block of metal
14:03:53 <ehird> the juxtaposition of crazy refrigeration equipment / motherboard is fun
14:04:11 <ehird> http://gomeler.com/pic/Articles/Vapor%20Phase%20Change%20Cooling/finishedunit.jpg
14:04:50 <ehird> http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/282/compressor.jpg Cryopreservation equipment or computer cooler? You decide
14:06:05 <ehird> It cools both Eliezer Yudkowsky's corpse and his über-rad overclocked i7 rig for when he reawakens in thousands of years.
14:06:32 <ais523> yes, but when that happens, his computer will almost certainly be obsolete
14:06:53 <ehird> He'll just overclock it to 1,000 GHz or something using their new cooling systems.
14:07:24 <ehird> Powered by a Dyson Sphere circling around a cold star!
14:07:32 <ehird> It's like a star, but really cold.
14:07:46 <Deewiant> Never upgrade your CPU, only the cooler, and overclock it
14:08:14 <ehird> I'm currently running a tricked-out 8086
14:09:12 <ehird> Anyway, I use felt mouse pads because the plastic ones scratch optical mice :(
14:09:26 <ehird> Glass + laser mouse should be pretty rad.
14:09:39 <Deewiant> I wonder if, say, a 5GHz 80386, could hold a candle to today's CPUs
14:10:05 <ehird> As far as serial processing goes, that is.
14:10:24 <Deewiant> Lacking pipelines, caches, all that shit?
14:10:38 <ehird> 5 ghz can surely compete with an Atom.
14:10:46 <fizzie> Just add more gigahertzies.
14:10:49 <ehird> And an Atom ain't nothin' to be sniffed at.
14:10:58 <ehird> Anyway, let's stop rambling and DO THIS SHIT.
14:11:04 <ehird> Anyone have a phase change cooler?
14:11:06 <fizzie> Though I am not so sure you can get a 5 GHz 80386 no matter how cold you make it.
14:11:16 <Deewiant> I am quite sure that it is impossible.
14:12:05 <fizzie> You could petition Intel to do a 5 GHz 80386 clone, though.
14:12:32 <ehird> O-kayyyy, so it seems like the only way to get an MX Revolution is by buying a combo-pack of it and a shitty keyboard.
14:12:44 <ehird> I wonder if they just forgot to discontinue the latter or something.
14:13:07 <Deewiant> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_rate#Limits
14:13:43 <ehird> you are a horrible person :(
14:13:56 <fizzie> "Logitech MX Revolution Cordless", 74 eur from the local e-retailer with no keyboards attached.
14:14:24 <ehird> Yes, but it's not actually on their official site, I mean.
14:14:31 <ehird> Anyhow, is that Bluetooth?
14:14:41 <ehird> It didn't use to be Bluetooth.
14:14:55 <fizzie> It doesn't look like it's Bluetooth now either; at least according to the retailer's description.
14:15:11 <fizzie> "Full-Speed USB connection for the receiver" is listed there.
14:15:16 <ehird> Is in http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard_mice_combos/devices/3481&cl=us,en
14:15:26 <ehird> YOUR RETAILER IS SELLING OUTDATED COMMIE GOODS
14:15:57 <fizzie> There's a "product information" link to some logitech.com URL that is dead now.
14:16:18 <ehird> Very queer; it *is* awfully popular.
14:18:53 <fizzie> I used to have a.. uh, I think it was called "MX 510"; when I went to replace it (since it had started to do automatical double-clicking) it had also disappeared, and the closest thing seemed to be a MX 518 "gaming mouse".
14:19:27 <fizzie> Couldn't make myself buy anything that said "gaming" so openly, had to get a MX400 or something, which was decidedly inferior.
14:19:54 <ehird> the MX Revolution has like 70 buttons, lets youua charge yah lazer, and lets you make the scrollwheel slide instead of click
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14:20:02 <ehird> also it has that freaky contour thing
14:20:04 <ehird> it seems pretty neato.
14:20:37 <fizzie> They're still selling the MX518 gaming thing, it seems.
14:21:00 <fizzie> That G9x looks pretty silly.
14:21:21 <fizzie> Every movement registers accurately thanks to the next-generation gaming laser.*"
14:21:26 <fizzie> Ooh, there's a gaming laser in it.
14:21:53 <fizzie> Maybe you can use it to shoot at people.
14:23:50 <Deewiant> But then, I have nothing against gaming and even use it for gaming.
14:23:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: It looks not terribly different from the MX510 -- http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/mice/devices/4259&cl=us,en vs. http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Performance-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B0001YGIB0
14:24:05 <fizzie> And apparently the MX510 has been retroactively branded as a "gaming mouse" too.
14:25:10 <fizzie> They (Logitech) don't seem to be doing very many corded models nowadays.
14:27:09 <Deewiant> I think the difference is pretty much just in the DPI
14:30:10 <fizzie> What's this "Logitech® Darkfield Laser Tracking™"? It sounds very sci-fi.
14:38:58 <Gregor> I read that as "darkified"
14:39:41 <oklokok> i read your "darkified" as "dork friend"
14:40:14 <oklokok> chuckled mentally after realizing it was a double misread
14:40:22 <Gregor> I read your "dork friend" as "dork fried"
14:40:34 <Gregor> OK, I didn't, but I thought this misread-fest needed another layer :P
14:40:34 <oklokok> he's lying someone tell him it's bad
14:40:58 <oklokok> well misreading is great fun
14:41:16 <oerjan> Gregor: lying is bad for you, it'll cause your teeth to fall out!
14:41:24 <Gregor> But I like my teeth D-8
14:41:42 <Gregor> But I also like lying!
14:41:48 <Gregor> I may like lying more than my teeth!
14:42:07 <oerjan> you cannot have your cake and eat it. at least not without teeth.
14:42:52 <oklokok> AnMaster: i'm eating garlic favored food, high five!
14:43:05 <oklokok> oerjan: were you setting us up for that?
14:43:09 <oerjan> oklokok: from a safe distance
14:43:18 <oerjan> wait, that was for the garlic
14:43:51 <oerjan> and no, the last pun was just a lucky opportunity
14:44:12 <oklokok> i almost want to give the dog some g, she once ate a piece of onion, then tried to cough it out for about half an hour
14:44:26 <oerjan> you wicked, wicked man
14:44:30 <oklokok> dunno if garlic does something interesting too
14:44:44 <oklokok> well i'm not actually doing it, so i'm just once wicked
14:44:52 <oklokok> wicked, wicked is when you actually do it.
14:44:56 <oerjan> it turns dogs into vampires. or something like that.
14:50:27 <Gregor> I usually just pan-fry garlic in olive oil and eat it.
15:04:58 <ais523> hmm... why does Wikipedia not have an article on "over 9000"?
15:05:38 <ais523> how on earth am I meant to figure out what memes mean without Wikipedia's help?
15:05:49 <ais523> (I tried Google, but none of the search results are sites I'd feel comfortable visiting)
15:08:04 <oerjan> ais523: urban dictionary is safe enough afaik
15:08:18 <ais523> for me it's been rather patchy
15:08:19 <oerjan> i agree about encyclopedia dramatica though...
15:08:48 <oerjan> well i suppose if you cannot stand reading about sexual slang...
15:09:08 <ais523> oerjan: or would get in trouble for accessing it from a University connectoin
15:10:11 <Gregor> Asexuality: Where our motto is, "We don't need no fuckin' slang"
15:10:45 <oerjan> ais523: either you are paranoid, or you need to start a revolution. take your pick.
15:13:34 <oerjan> knowyourmeme.com seems useful
15:13:38 <oklokok> urbandictionary is horrible
15:13:50 <oerjan> well yeah lots of fake entries
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15:14:35 <oklokok> well first of all there are pretty much no decent entries
15:14:54 <Gregor> Nobody received this, but I said:
15:14:56 <Gregor> Asexuality: Where our motto is, "We don't need no fuckin' slang"
15:15:06 <oklokok> but it's funnier the second time
15:15:19 <oklokok> no, it's so massively complex
15:15:37 <oerjan> it implodes in a black hole. thus the disconnect.
15:19:37 <fizzie> So, "let me get into my calculator"?
15:20:26 <oerjan> no. it doesn't have enough memory for uploading anyway.
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15:36:37 <AnMaster> <oklokok> AnMaster: i'm eating garlic favored food, high five! <-- yay
15:37:23 <AnMaster> (I assume that was supposed to be "flavoured")
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16:01:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw why did you port that game?
16:02:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, and what about TI-83+? Could you port it to that too?
16:03:30 <Deewiant> TI-83+ was already done, wasn't it?
16:04:31 <ais523> what is robotfindskitten, btw?
16:05:14 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:05:45 <Deewiant> You wander around walking into things until you "find kitten". The value is in the amusing messages.
16:05:59 <ais523> so you're basically aiming for the same location as the kitten
16:06:05 <ais523> but you don't know where the kitten is
16:06:09 <Deewiant> (I hesitate to call it a game since you can't lose)
16:06:31 <ais523> you can't lose in many nomics, but they're considered games
16:07:10 <Deewiant> You can't really /do/ much either, AFAICT.
16:07:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could make a highscore for number of moves needed?
16:07:28 <Deewiant> You could equally well read "less messages.txt".
16:07:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: A random number generator, yay
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17:57:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: I ported it to the TI-86 because it was the only thing I had to which it had not yet been ported.
17:58:03 <fizzie> And a TI-83+/TI-84+ port exists already, yes.
17:58:09 <ais523> fizzie: port it to your microwave
18:00:35 <fizzie> Well, the only easily programmable thing. (I was going to say "the only thing that can easily run it", but I guess my camera, printer, and things like that should be quite able to run it, if their manufacturers just wouldn't have wanted to discourage reprogramming them so much.)
18:00:52 <Deewiant> Do toasters that run software actually exist?
18:01:08 <ais523> well, at least one doe
18:01:29 <Deewiant> Constructed specifically for that purpose? :-P
18:01:49 <fizzie> I have only seen custom-hardware-that-does-toast-thing; I don't think I've seen a commercial toaster that would've been programmable.
18:02:28 <ais523> http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-netbsd-toaster.php
18:02:31 <fizzie> They do those "burn a picture to your bread" toasters, one like that with a programmable heat element configuration would be nice.
18:03:41 <fizzie> "Well, we're definitely not planning on going into full production with this."
18:03:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, sucks if you prefer lightly toasted bread :P
18:04:13 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of food-colouring-dye inkjet printer, then.
18:04:55 <fizzie> Though that would probably saturate the "I found Jesus/Virgin Mary in my [insert a food item]" market.
18:07:46 <fizzie> Oh, and I may get a power supply for that web server laptop soon; today there was a "tried to deliver your mail today at X but couldn't fit an envelope in the mail slot, come pick it up from the post office tomorrow" note left here.
18:08:19 <ais523> apparently the oaster in question was slashdotted
18:08:31 <ais523> as in, the website describing the toaster actually runs on the toaster
18:08:40 <ais523> someone linked it on Slashdot, and the toaster couldn't cope
18:10:18 <fizzie> Yes, I remember that happening. "Sorry, you can't have toast today; the toaster is slashdotted."
18:12:53 <fizzie> It's a bit funny the way the computer e-tailer here truncates all large numbers to the text "over 25" in the availability details. "Over 25 units at the main warehouse, of which over 25 have been reserved. Over 25 free. On the shelf at the Helsinki store over 25 units, at the Pirkkala store over 25 units, and at the Oulu store over 25 units."
18:13:50 <fizzie> "Last received: over 25 units, Monday 5.10.2009."
18:14:17 <ais523> why did it not change the 2009?
18:15:46 <fizzie> Now that would be a good idea. "Out of stock: available October over 25, over 25."
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18:18:11 <AnMaster> or alternatively I guess the question: 'What is a "computer e-tailer"?' may work
18:20:12 <fizzie> Short for "e-retailer", a shop that peddles their wares mostly over the interwebs.
18:20:57 <fizzie> Though truthfully I have no way of knowing how much of their business happens over the web, and how much the physical brick-and-mortar stores count for. They used to have only one of those, but now they have three, so it can't be completely unprofitable.
18:21:08 <fizzie> I'd link, but I don't think they have anything in English.
18:25:33 <AnMaster> huh.... what the hell just happened
18:25:49 <AnMaster> for reference: My monitor is TFT with VGA connector only.
18:25:53 <fizzie> Which makes the company-info-page "Vi betjänar också på svenska! We offer service also in English! Обслуживаем на русском языке!" a bit lierrific, since it seems to be the only non-Finnish bit there.
18:26:05 <ais523> AnMaster: we need more context to know wtf just happened
18:26:10 <AnMaster> a second ago everything flickered like it needed that "auto" button to be pressed. Then went back to normal
18:26:31 <AnMaster> and never ever happened before afaik
18:26:46 <ais523> what was happening on the computer at the time?
18:27:14 <AnMaster> ais523, kpatience and IRC. konsole open in the background, nothing major going on as far as I can tell
18:27:52 <AnMaster> no cron jobs as far as I can tell by logs either
18:28:22 <fizzie> A cron job to interrupt the display signal momentarily sounds like a rather useless one.
18:28:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, but possibly something going on could have caused issues. Possibly
18:29:22 <AnMaster> Sometimes the auto tune goes slowly unfocused over time, but that tends to be gradual rather than sudden. And it doesn't tend to get back then. (you have to press auto on monitor)
18:30:03 <AnMaster> as a matter of fact, the gradual unfocusing issues has been getting more common during the last few months
18:30:12 <AnMaster> hope nothing is about to break...
18:31:29 <fizzie> Analog is so pre-Common-Era anyway.
18:32:06 <AnMaster> my monitor isn't THAT old. 2006 or so I think.
18:33:31 <fizzie> Then you really have no excuse. :p
18:34:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes I do, because at that time I had a graphics card with only VGA connector
18:34:27 <fizzie> For still having a blurry needs-tuning analog wire between the computer and the monitor, of course.
18:34:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, well the monitor *doesn't* have a DVI connector
18:34:54 <AnMaster> so that is quite a good excuse I think
18:35:10 <fizzie> No, it just means there's no excuse for having that sort of monitor.
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18:35:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well the old one broke and I urgently needed a replacement, wasn't able to wait a week or so for one to be delivered. Had to get it same day.
18:36:05 <AnMaster> thus I had to take one in the only store within reasonable distance
18:36:21 <fizzie> I guess that makes some sort of sense.
18:37:14 <fizzie> Which reminds me, I'd sure like to get that monitor back. The service tracking system status had changed to "[green blob] Ready" yesterday, but now they seem to be just keeping it for the fun of it.
18:37:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh they repaired it rather than replacing it?
18:38:25 <fizzie> Well, I don't know what happens there, all I get is the event log, which just has entries like "received at the service centre" and "being worked on" and now "ready".
18:38:44 <fizzie> I guess their "ready" could mean "it's dead and we can't do anything about it" too.
18:39:35 <fizzie> Ooh, the TFT size categories at the store (the one I've been talking out, it being my default place for hardware-browsing) nowadays go up to 82".
18:39:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, I hope you mentioned that you needed same height for multihead setup? And about that dead pixel warranty
18:39:52 <fizzie> And not just one: there's four 82" TFT's, all 1920x1080.
18:39:57 <fizzie> Not really meant for "home use".
18:40:17 <fizzie> Yes, it's more for info-screen-at-a-public-place type of thing.
18:40:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the aspect ratio?
18:40:32 <AnMaster> or even better: physical dimensions
18:40:35 <fizzie> Also from 45711.90 to 59627.90 eur; not very cheap.
18:41:14 <fizzie> Er, well, 82" is 82" 'physically'; I don't know about the depth.
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18:41:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, width and height
18:41:38 <AnMaster> depending on if it is 4:3 or 16:9 that will vary quite a bit
18:41:51 <fizzie> I doubt anyone will do non-square pixels nowadays.
18:41:55 <fizzie> And 1920x1080 is 16:9.
18:42:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure they do. OLPC uses some weird pixel placement iirc
18:42:19 <fizzie> They eat 1 kW of electricity, heh.
18:42:35 <fizzie> The 59627.90 EUR one is also a touchscreen.
18:43:05 <fizzie> Well, for an information kiosk type of thing where you want to display something huge.
18:43:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, issue is that if you are standing close enough to touch it, it is too large to be easy to read on and/or will look quite bad due to low DPI
18:44:53 <fizzie> Well, 23 DPI. I guess that's pretty low.
18:45:30 <fizzie> Weight: 140 kg. Not very portable either.
18:45:51 <AnMaster> sure, great if you want to put it high on a wall to display (for example) arriving and departing trains
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18:47:11 <AnMaster> and I guess the touchscreen could be useful when it starts displaying a bluescreen (which seems sadly common for such public announcement displays...)
18:48:17 <fizzie> They don't really say what the touch thing is good for.
18:49:08 <fizzie> I guess it could be used in some sort of application where you have that thing in a conference room wall, looked at a reasonable distance, but want to allow the presenter to interact with it without having to use any sort of remote or pointer device or anything.
18:49:20 <fizzie> It's this model, fwiw: http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LH82TCTMBC/EN
18:53:33 <fizzie> There's some sort of built-in support for making a 5x5 video wall out of those, but probably not everyone has 1.25 million to spend on 25 monitors at 50 grand each.
18:56:04 <fizzie> Uh... they also sell this 4.5" LCD "monitor" that is packaged into a shape that resembles the rear view mirror of a car. The product description says "*for example* for the enthusiast looking for the perfect car driving game experience". I can't really figure out what else it could really be good for.
18:56:53 <fizzie> The description also proudly advertises that you can attach it to a regular rear view mirror, but that sounds pretty much illegal to me. At least assuming you're then going to go driving.
19:00:17 <fizzie> Except that it's not even good for that car game scenario, since the screen seems to have some sort of 4:3 aspect ratio with huge borders.
19:00:28 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/32318_01.jpg
19:01:16 <fizzie> Maybe that's a bit wider than 4:3, but it's still not what you'd see in a real mirror.
19:03:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah that is just sill y
19:04:14 <fizzie> And it costs >200 eur.
19:04:31 <HackEgo> 200 Euros = 2 057.66135 Swedish kronor
19:04:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, DIY would be cheaper and look better
19:06:07 <fizzie> Probably; although I'm not aware of any consumer-oriented retailers for small display panels; still, I guess you should be able to buy one.
19:08:16 <fizzie> Have you ever felt like you'd really want a numpad also in your mouse? http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/94345_01.jpg
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19:13:42 <Asztal> I thought that was a joke at razer's expense, but it turns out it's actually real.
19:14:15 <Deewiant> Well, I guess the numpad thing was a joke.
19:14:46 <Asztal> http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga
19:15:10 <Deewiant> Yeah, it just has programmable buttons.
19:15:32 <fizzie> Yes, they're targeting it for the MMO crowd.
19:15:52 <fizzie> But since they're programmable, I'm sure you can configure them to act as a numpad.
19:18:44 <fizzie> "Maximum Comfort for Long Gaming Sessions
19:18:44 <fizzie> Game for days with the Razer Naga’s ergonomic design, optimized for easy access to every button." Could you then sue them when you die of dehydration after "gaming for days" with the mouse? (Discounting for now the logistics of suing them when you're dead.)
19:19:00 <fizzie> Maybe they have a disclaimer, or a warning message.
19:20:31 <fizzie> One of those "virtual reality helmets" had the rather amusing "don't use while skiing" warning.
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19:30:44 <Asztal> Well there goes my holiday plan.
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19:32:39 <Sgeo[ERC]> Well, I think I interested a classmate in emacs
19:34:30 <coppro> I'm sort of interested in emacs, except I'd rather use vim
19:34:50 <Sgeo[ERC]> Does vim have syntax hilighting for SQL/
19:35:05 <coppro> Yes. Or if it doesn't, you can find it.
19:35:12 <coppro> But I haven't really tried vim yet either
19:35:19 <coppro> so it's pretty irrelevant
19:35:46 <coppro> Kate has SQL syntax highlighting, though it
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19:35:58 <coppro> *though it's written for standard SQL so variants lik eMySQL don't always work so hot
19:36:13 <Sgeo[ERC]> Our class edits sql files on the school's Linux server over ssh
19:37:41 <Sgeo[ERC]> Even if I knew how, that would waste a lot of the school's bandwidth
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20:14:56 <fizzie> Of course there's SQL syntax highlighting in Vim.
20:14:58 <fizzie> fis@eris:/usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax$ ls sql*
20:14:58 <fizzie> sqlanywhere.vim sqlforms.vim sqlinformix.vim sqlj.vim sqloracle.vim sql.vim
20:15:28 <fizzie> Also a couple of specific variants.
20:16:51 <oklokok> AnMaster: yes, it should be flavored
20:16:59 <oklokok> why the fuck have i started making typos
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20:17:31 <oklokok> fizzie: numpad mouse is not symmetric, i couldn't live with that
20:17:59 <fizzie> oklokok: Buy two, mirror one and tape them together.
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20:35:52 <fizzie> Yeeeees, I'm not quite sure how you're supposed to implement that, it just sounded like the sort of primitive operation that should be supported.
20:36:13 <fizzie> As far as transformations go, you can't get much simpler.
20:40:21 <oklokok> well it's simple given an extra dimension
20:41:21 <fizzie> Isn't that a configurable value? I'm sure you can change it by tweaking some dot-file.
20:45:23 <coppro> ehird: http://pastie.org/647390
21:09:35 <AnMaster> oklokok, isn't that kind of standard nowdays?
21:13:31 <oklokok> non-symmetry, extra dimensions, typos?
21:14:40 <oklokok> i assume the first one, that seems to be rather standard nowadays
21:14:43 <oklokok> doesn't make it less stupid
21:19:38 <AnMaster> oklokok, anyway who would use a numpad for a mouse?
21:24:16 <fizzie> I guess it isn't really a "numpad" in that case, though.
21:24:33 <fizzie> But if you want, you can consider it a numpad in the mouse, the actions of which have just been rebound.
21:24:40 <fizzie> It has the right shape for a numpad.
21:26:03 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Mumorpuger players. <-- huh?
21:26:37 <fizzie> That's one way of pronouncing "MMORPG".
21:28:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway how is a numpad asymetric?
21:28:48 <AnMaster> well apart from the larger + enter and 0/ins keys
21:29:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, err... how did you map the keys then
21:29:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think I must have completely misunderstood you
21:30:08 <fizzie> There is a numpad on a mouse. You know. Like, a 3x4 grid of buttons, on the side of a physical pointer device.
21:30:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, aren't you talking about the "map mouse to numpad" accessibility thingy?
21:30:35 <fizzie> We were talking about http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/94345_01.jpg
21:31:29 <fizzie> And *that* is a mouse that's been targeted to the MMO-game crowd.
21:32:39 <fizzie> I assume they bind various sorts of actions to those buttons. Grinding is somehow involved. Ding. You "aggro" pulleys, and DFP is.. a flat panel screen? Tanks are involved. I'm very confused about the jargon they use.
21:33:24 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it was DPS and not DFP. Close enough.
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21:38:10 <coppro> this torrent is bizzare
21:38:17 <coppro> I think my client's borked
21:44:10 <Deewiant> http://cessu.blogspot.com/2008/09/have-you-listened-to-your-program-today.html
21:47:07 <fizzie> Didn't they make some sort of crypto-side-channel-attack based on recording the audio signals caused by the computer?
21:47:15 <fizzie> Google at least has some hits for "Acoustic Side Channel Attacks"
21:47:44 <Deewiant> Yes, I recall something like that.
21:56:47 <fizzie> The song's a bit monotonous.
21:56:53 <fizzie> I'm not sure I see commercial potential in it.
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22:38:42 * pikhq just found out that GNU Make can't handle spaces in filenames.
22:42:54 <pikhq> How is it that someone can actually screw up freaking specifying a dependency tree?
22:46:11 <oerjan> graph theory is hard...
22:47:18 <pikhq> And apparently quoting is harder.
22:51:05 <fizzie> You can quote spaces in targets with a \\.
22:51:25 <fizzie> But it doesn't work everywhere, there's a lot of functions that just look at space-separated lists.
22:52:17 <pikhq> Does no good when you're writing an implicit rule...
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23:12:59 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:33:33 <ehird> just want to confirm that F.lux is amazing
23:33:58 <ehird> the colours post-sunset looked amazingly orange in daylight... but now they're perfect
23:38:40 <ehird> [15:05] ais523: (I tried Google, but none of the search results are sites I'd feel comfortable visiting)
23:38:40 <ehird> block images, click encyclopediadramatica link, ignore "fag" etc, profit on even the most obscurest meme from obscureville
23:38:59 <ehird> ED, contrary to popular opinion, is not a shock site; it's a vulgar compendium of internet culture
23:45:03 <ehird> [18:03] AnMaster: fizzie, sucks if you prefer lightly toasted bread :P
23:45:03 <ehird> MILDLY BROWN! MILDLY BROWN!
23:45:04 <ehird> [19:08] fizzie: Have you ever felt like you'd really want a numpad also in your mouse? http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/94345_01.jpg
23:45:04 <ehird> nothing wrong with programmable buttons for gamers
23:45:04 <ehird> [19:36] Sgeo[ERC]: Our class edits sql files on the school's Linux server over ssh
23:45:07 <ehird> ([19:34] Sgeo[ERC]: Does vim have syntax hilighting for SQL/
23:45:09 <ehird> stop trying to interest people in editors)
23:45:11 <ehird> [20:40] oklokok: well it's simple given an extra dimension
23:45:13 <ehird> [20:40] oklokok: do you have those?
23:45:15 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:45:17 <ehird> BAM! 11 LINES OF SPEW
23:45:37 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:47:41 <ehird> http://cessu.blogspot.com/2008/09/have-you-listened-to-your-program-today.html [from earlier]
23:47:51 <ehird> would make good drone metal, sort of thing
23:47:54 <oerjan> you cannot beat me when i'm not running in the same direction!
23:48:15 <ehird> or experimental electronic music
23:48:38 <ehird> <madbrain> I WANT SOMETHING DISTINGUISHABLE FROM A PROGRAM EXECUTING! DAMN AVANT-GARDE COMPOSERS
23:49:31 <oerjan> <ehird> ([19:34] Sgeo[ERC]: Does vim have syntax hilighting for SQL/
23:49:46 <ehird> it was answered earlier
23:50:09 <ehird> but if he's responding to "vim is better than emacs" with "can vim highlight SQL" he should *really* not be extolling the virtues of certain editors to people
23:53:22 <Gregor> vim can highlight SQL :P
23:53:51 <ehird> BUT IMAGINE IF IT COULDN'T BY DEFAULT!
23:53:58 <ehird> <Sgeo> Benefits of emacs: can highlight SQL
23:54:05 <ehird> <Sgeo> Benefits of vim: Some people like it more
23:54:10 <ehird> <Sgeo> I think I'll stick to emacs
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23:56:53 <Gregor> The French guy who is the only other bastion of vim in my research group is fleeing back to France, leaving me alone against a cadre of emacsen.
23:57:17 <ehird> Note: Those three lines are, in fact, parody
23:57:29 <ehird> Just in case; it's quite hard to tell
23:57:43 <ehird> also, is it just me or are "gaming mice" regular mice with weights?
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23:58:15 <oerjan> gaming mice should be able to traverse small labyrinths, me thinks
23:58:27 <Gregor> ehird: I have a pseudofriend who has a gaming mouse that actually has removable/replaceable weights X_X
23:58:34 <ehird> Yes, that's most of them.
23:58:39 <Gregor> Ah, I didn't know that.
23:58:39 <ehird> It's not unreasonable, in fact, if a little excessive.
23:58:43 <ehird> Well, not most of them.
23:58:52 <ehird> But most of Razer's, I'd wager, and Logitech's higher-end ones.
23:59:08 <ehird> Anyway, it beats having multiple mice. Of course, it only matters if you're good to start with.
00:00:17 <ehird> Switching from a crufty 90s PS/2 rubber dome affair and a two-button-without-even-scroll-wheel 90s PS/2 ball mice on an uber-cheap felt pad to a mechanical keyswitch board and a Razer mouse on a glass mousing pad won't help you not suck :P
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00:01:49 <ehird> I wonder why so many mice use discrete scrollwheels.
00:01:57 <ehird> Whussamatter with smooth continuous scrolling
00:02:15 <Gregor> I lurrrrrrrrrrrve discrete scrollwheels.
00:02:23 <Gregor> Lots of things actually make use of the discrete steps.
00:02:34 <Gregor> Although that's chicken-and-egg.
00:02:34 <ehird> What examples, if you may?
00:02:52 <Gregor> Idonno, honestly, as my scroll wheel broke a few months ago and I'm far too lazy/cheap to replace my mouse :P
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00:03:20 <ehird> The only things I can think of are Emacs (and scrolling that with a wheel is an exercise in what the fuck) and iTunes (snaps scrolling to the lines of the library table)
00:03:34 <Gregor> Oh, I remember one thing I did a fekk of a lot, was switch between virtual desktops with the scroll wheel.
00:03:38 <ehird> The former is a crapshoot anyway, the latter wouldn't really make any difference
00:03:41 <Gregor> Which was discrete for obvious reasons.
00:04:04 <ehird> Gregor: That's true. It could just be continuous with a big enough space for each, though. It isn't trivial to click the mouse wheel only one.
00:04:38 <Gregor> I'm not really arguing either way, I just think that it's more useful than you're letting on, albeit harmful to the things it doesn't help with.
00:05:12 <ehird> The MX Revolution lets you click down the scroll wheel to switch between them XD
00:05:19 <ehird> And in continuous mode, you can flick it and it'll keep rolling.
00:06:01 <ehird> OTOH that means you can't click the scroll wheel. Then again, that's not very ergonomic in the first place.
00:06:12 <Gregor> I click the scroll wheel a LOT.
00:06:26 <ehird> No, you click the middle button.
00:06:37 <ehird> That happens to be assigned to the scroll wheel, which is a mouse button in yoour mouse.
00:06:37 <Gregor> Yes, but since that's embedded into the scroll wheel, there.
00:07:02 <Gregor> A three-button mouse with a scroll wheel separate from the middle button would also be acceptable.
00:07:03 <ehird> Gregor: The point is that it's a separate button just below the wheel in the MX Revolution, and the scroll wheel is a mechanical button to switch between continuous/descreet.
00:07:19 <ehird> And this may be a good thing, because clicking the scroll wheel doesn't seem a terribly finger-friendly move to me.
00:07:58 <ehird> OTOH, hitting the button below might require moving one of my fingers off the scroll wheel; sure, having it elevated above the two on the other buttons isn't ergonomic, but it's so damn convenient to be able to do everything at once.
00:15:33 <fizzie> Tramp has been horreebly slow for me; admittedly I've only tried it with org-mode's icalendar-export feature. I've just been using sshfs instead.
00:16:21 <fizzie> There were some "this is how to speed it up" tricks in the TRAMP manual, though.
00:18:02 -!- SimonRC has joined.
00:18:11 <fizzie> (Given that "How could I speed up tramp?" is the third question on the FAQ, right after "where do I get it" and "what does it work on", I'm not the only one who's been bothered by the slowness.
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00:19:53 <ehird> Well, I don't actually recommend using tramp, you understand, but it's gotta be faster than emacs-over-ssh.
00:20:29 <fizzie> Emacs-with-X-over-ssh, certainly. Terminal-Emacs-over-ssh should be fine though.
00:21:24 <fizzie> (And I also have to admit being one of the discrete-wheel lovers, but that again is probably just a matter of what one is accustomed to. "Scroll wheel is middle button" feels reasonably natural nowadays, though it felt pretty strange back when they actually started putting wheels on all mice.)
00:23:01 <fizzie> I used to have a rather funkily shaped three-button no-wheel Logitech.
00:24:35 <fizzie> I think it had some sort of rounded-triangleish shape.
00:25:55 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_3_buttons_mouse.jpeg maybe except with a pattern instead of just plain white.
00:44:28 <ehird> "kernel msg: ebtables bug: please report to author: The table doesn't like its own initial data, lol"
00:44:47 <ehird> (If they have kernel.org, surely I can refer to it as "kernel".)
00:45:24 <ehird> drivers/parisc/superio.c: DBGINIT("_superio_\probe: WTF? Fire Extinguisher?\n");
00:45:25 <ehird> fs/autofs/inode.c: /* Can this call block? - WTF cares? s is locked. */
00:45:31 <ehird> net/atm/ioctl.c: /* WTF? I don't even want to *think* about making this
00:46:11 <ehird> printk("ufsreadsuper: fucking Sun blows me\n"); 2.0.38 /usr/src/linux/fs/ufs/ufssuper.c
00:46:18 <ehird> will we ever find all the fun things in the kernel.
00:53:15 <augur> the preposition "to"
00:53:23 <augur> apparently has the semantics
00:53:43 <ehird> your mom has semantics. like, in bed.
00:54:16 <augur> (e -> t) -> (e -> t) -> ((e -> t) -> (e -> t) -> (e -> t)) -> e -> t
00:55:26 <augur> well, its actually not TOO bad
00:55:26 <oerjan> i say kill it with fire.
00:56:00 <augur> (e -> t) is the type of common noun phrases (so we might abbrviate it in those instances as NP)
00:56:09 <augur> so this is sort of
00:56:13 <augur> NP -> NP -> (NP -> NP -> e -> t) -> e -> t
00:56:17 <oerjan> !haskell :t \f g h -> h f g
00:56:23 <EgoBot> \f g h -> h f g :: t -> t1 -> (t -> t1 -> t2) -> t2
00:56:30 <augur> NP -> NP -> e -> t is the type of a ditransitive verb
00:56:52 <augur> like "give" in "john gave frank a hat"
00:57:00 <augur> so we can just abbreviate that DTV
00:57:08 <augur> so "to" is NP -> NP -> DTV -> e -> t
00:57:28 <augur> that is, take to NPs (as in [give [the book [to [frank]]]]
00:57:49 <augur> and then take a ditransitive verb
00:57:58 <augur> and apply the ditransitive verb to the NPs
00:57:59 <augur> and get back a verb phrase (e -> t)
00:58:18 <augur> in those terms, it doesnt seem so weird, ey?
00:58:26 <augur> but in explicit terms!
01:02:36 <augur> i think YOU should shut up
01:03:05 <ehird> i love how you always give me an opportunity to dictate intonation and timing over IRC
01:03:17 <augur> i was in the bathroom.
01:03:18 <ehird> it's expressive in a way "augur. augur? shut up." isn't
01:03:22 <ehird> you get a FEEL for it!
01:03:27 <augur> but if you want to think of it as that, go ahead
01:03:31 <ehird> AND YET it is even more expressive than "augur. augur. shut up."
01:03:40 <ehird> THAT IS MERELY REDUNDANT, NOT EMPHASIS-FILLED
01:04:16 <ehird> But, it would seem AWKWARD and perhaps even INAPPROPRIATE in the context of any other talking! It requires someone with a liberal use of lowercase, newlines and lack of punctuation to pull off!
01:08:46 <ehird> OH THIS IS A PUN YOU SEE
01:08:55 <ehird> I. A LINGUISTIC TERM
01:08:59 <ehird> II. A COMPUTER SCIENCE TERM
01:09:09 <ehird> III. A COMMON INTERNET ACRONYM FOR "NO PROBLEM"
01:09:39 <augur> its also the logical counterpart to P, which is the shorthand for "preposition" which is the class of words that the word "to" belongs to!
01:09:42 <ehird> Since augur is a linguist, this channel is (ostensibly) about computer science, and we are on IRC, a common medium for such shorthand, this (non-sexual!) triple entrende brings much humour!
01:10:08 <ehird> Additionally, since NP was brought up in a linguistic sense earlier,
01:10:08 <augur> i'd have a triple entendre with you ehird
01:10:28 <ehird> and in fact in the context of the things that caused me to tell augur to shut up in my most delightful fashion,
01:10:38 <ehird> it has an extra punly zest!
01:17:32 <oerjan> although, being gay, he cannot be a very cunning linguist
01:22:47 <augur> actually i know some really hot transboys
01:23:01 <augur> and in those cases it wouldnt bother me.
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01:28:08 <Sgeo> TWO EXPERIENCEd POLISH GIRL WIll ClEAN YOUR HOUSE OFFICE OR APARTMENT PlEASE CAll
01:28:50 <Sgeo> ^^got that in the main, on loose leaf, not in an envelope. It was not xeroxed (I forgot the generic word for that)
01:29:12 <augur> with the weird capitalization?
01:29:23 <Sgeo> Although it looks somewhat better as written
01:29:39 <Sgeo> Oh wait, APARTMEnT not APARTMENT
01:29:49 <Sgeo> Although the N is as big as the rest of the letters
01:30:06 <augur> i see no magic code!
01:31:28 <augur> manually doing type inference is fun
01:43:04 <augur> its also quote enjoyable to try and use types to infer semantics
01:46:17 <ehird> <italics>HOW IS THE AUGUR</italics> goddamn we need +c or -c whichever it is
01:46:34 <ehird> That was me correcting **AUGURY to *AUGURY
01:46:51 <Sgeo> ...I'm about to tell my teacher how to not make either "using namespace std" or "std::whatever" required on modern compilers
01:47:00 <Sgeo> Is this a horrible sin that I'm about to commit?
01:49:21 <Sgeo> Using .h in the name of the header file
01:49:32 <Sgeo> #include <iostream.h> instead of #include <iostream>
01:49:35 <pikhq> ... Namespace fail.
01:50:21 <pikhq> I was hoping for "Use 'import std' instead of headers".
01:51:41 <pikhq> (headers are t3h suck. Nothing other than C should ever use them -- and C is only allowed to because it's absurdly old.)
01:52:41 <Sgeo> pikhq, does C++ have import?
01:52:51 <pikhq> It has no excuse, though.
02:00:11 <ehird> pikhq: Hey hey, import considered harmful!
02:00:45 <ehird> http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/06/ban-on-imports.html
02:00:45 <ehird> http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/07/ban-on-imports-continued.html
02:00:50 <pikhq> ehird: Compared with headers, though?
02:00:54 <ehird> Keep up wit da programming avant garde, mon :P
02:01:14 <pikhq> Headers are a freaking archaicism.
02:01:19 <ehird> pikhq: "Porn!" "2girls1cup? Eww. I was hoping for goatse."
02:08:10 <coppro> There are plans to get rid of headers for C++
02:08:20 <coppro> or more accurately, provide a better approach
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02:22:25 <pikhq> Do those plans involve getting rid of C++?
02:22:49 <ehird> You know, we have two people in this channel who do not dislike C++.
02:23:26 * pikhq gets out the tar, feathers
02:23:35 <ehird> coppro, and Sgeo. I fear that this 5.56% coalition is threatening our national security.
02:24:00 * Sgeo wants a language that is true to the metal
02:24:13 * pikhq hands Sgeo an assembler
02:24:14 <Sgeo> I should probably learn assembler
02:24:25 <ehird> Why do you want such a language?
02:24:32 <pikhq> You will then want to torch your metal to the ground.
02:24:33 <ehird> The metal of an x86 *sucks*.
02:24:34 <Sgeo> ehird, to learn!
02:24:50 <ehird> Learn meaningless bullshit without even any fun retro benefit? Awesome
02:25:25 <Sgeo> How is learning more about how my computer works "meaningless"?
02:25:38 <ehird> Learning x86 assembly doesn't do that.
02:25:43 <ehird> It's just as abstract as any language.
02:25:52 <Sgeo> How is assembly abstract?
02:26:03 <pikhq> If you really want to know how it works, start doing some circuit design.
02:26:06 <ehird> All the details about how computer chips actually do things are hidden; assembly is a symbolic language, just a crappy one.
02:26:11 <ehird> Assembly isn't even the lowest code level
02:26:27 <ehird> Assembly instructions are implemented in the architecture-specific, proprietary, read-only microcode.
02:26:32 <ehird> And even that is abstract!
02:27:04 <ehird> The only way to learn how processors work is chip design.
02:27:04 <pikhq> It elides over such details as 'what is 0' and 'what is 1'.
02:27:17 <ehird> Anything else is just learning the arbitrary details of the horrible not-even-base language the brain-damaged industry inflicted on us.
02:28:53 <ehird> Waking up from a dream and going "dammit, that doesn't actually exist" is annoying.
02:30:14 <oerjan> Waking up from a dream and going "dammit, i hope that doesn't exist", perhaps less so
02:32:00 <Sgeo> Can C++ be mechanically turned to C?
02:32:40 <ehird> That is why Cfront is a hoax.
02:32:42 <pikhq> Once upon a time it could.
02:32:56 <ehird> pikhq: "I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too."
02:33:20 <pikhq> Oh, they still have Cfront? *shudder*
02:33:22 <ehird> Unless C++'s compilation results actually require infinite memory :P
02:33:31 <ehird> pikhq: Of course you can translate C++ to C mechanically, I mean
02:34:36 <Sgeo> According to Wikipedia, Cfront is dead, but there's something else
02:35:09 <ehird> Whatever you're trying to do, don't.
02:35:19 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comeau_C/C%2B%2B
02:35:26 <Sgeo> ehird, don't learn>
02:35:30 <ehird> In fact I might as well hereby revoke your programming license before you do any more crap.
02:35:37 <ehird> TURNS OUT I HAVE THAT POWER
02:35:54 <ehird> Sgeo: So when are you starting your research on the intimate properties of fecal matter?
02:44:53 <Sgeo> Would there be any point in learning Pascal?
02:52:54 <ehird> [[The programming language Pascal has become the dominant language of instruction in computer science education. It has also strongly influenced languages developed subsequently, in particular Ada.
02:52:55 <ehird> Pascal was originally intended primarily as a teaching language, but it has been more and more often recommended as a language for serious programming as well, for example, for system programming tasks and even operating systems.
02:52:55 <ehird> Pascal, at least in its standard form, is just plain not suitable for serious programming. This paper discusses my personal discovery of some of the reasons why.]]
02:52:55 <ehird> — Brian W. Kernighan, April 2, 1981, "Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language"
02:55:23 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what an Avatar the Last Airbender video is doing in the section of his favorites that predate knowledge of what Avatar even is
02:57:07 <Sgeo> I only have 20 videos favorited between September 2008 and March 2009? WTF?
03:01:06 <Sgeo> [[There's a school in my neighbourhood that tells children that they may answer any question with 'god' and it will always be the right answer -_-;; Yup, education...]]
03:01:13 <Sgeo> ~A YouTube comment
03:05:09 <Ilari> Even if propaganda is not that blatant, there's a lot of it in elementary school...
03:16:33 <ehird> Ilari: education is propaganda
03:16:40 <ehird> Sgeo: "Who do you hate? "God"
03:16:44 <ehird> "Who doesn't exist?" "God"
03:16:50 <ehird> "Who had sex with yo momma last night?" "God!"
03:17:02 <oerjan> "Who killed John F. Kennedy?"
03:17:16 <oerjan> (but then he was a liberal so...)
03:17:26 <Ilari> What was the Mark Twain quote about School and education again...
03:17:47 <oerjan> i never let school get in the way of my education?
03:22:23 <Ilari> And that propaganda includes "educational" videos, which are pure unsound propaganda.
03:23:14 <ehird> A rather vague statement; care to clarify "'educational' videos"?
03:24:37 <Ilari> Videos which pretend to tell about something, but instead are disinformation.
03:25:18 <ehird> I don't disagree, but for instance…
03:25:44 <Ilari> Pretty much any Health ed. video.
03:26:06 <Ilari> Especially if about what to eat.
03:26:26 <ehird> Oh, not this topic again
03:26:51 <Ilari> Also, history videos might be those as well.
03:26:53 <ehird> I'm fairly sure the official healthy eating material isn't purposefully malicious disinformation, even if it is misguided
03:27:51 * Sgeo needs to see a nutritionist
03:28:51 <Sgeo> My current food intake: Cheerios, chicken sandwich with lettuce and onions on school days, and pasta with cheese
03:29:35 <ehird> Don't be dissin' Cheerios. I don't care if you weren't dissin' Cheerios, you had Cheerios in a sentence vaguely related to dissin' and that is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN
03:29:59 <Ilari> Well, there are those that genuinely believe current party line about "healthy eating". And there are those that do know better but still parrot the party line.
03:30:37 <ehird> You know, I think this is the first food pyramid conspiracy I've heard of. Does it have the All-Seeing Eye on it? :-P
03:31:12 <Warrigal> I have not yet forgotten that proper food is a luxury.
03:31:22 <Sgeo> Counting ones in comics, I've heard of others
03:31:26 <Sgeo> Well, one other
03:31:30 <Warrigal> It's a luxury I have access to about five times a week.
03:31:51 <Warrigal> There's a buffet place on campus that I go to the majority of the time.
03:32:09 <Sgeo> Warrigal, you go to college 5 times a week?
03:32:55 <Warrigal> Which would have been a stupid plan, had it been the plan.
03:32:55 * ehird holds down ⌘A, watches the "Edit" menu's text switch from black to white (and the background from slate-blueish to blue) so fast that it goes weird colours
03:33:59 <ehird> The colour-fringing from the subpixel antialiasing that it only does in the blue+white form for some reason becomes visible too.
03:35:20 <Ilari> Its more like that big business can buy both goverment and media. And also corrupt patient organizations.
03:35:59 <ehird> I can't resist. what's your opinion on fluoride
03:36:02 <Ilari> This food pyramid thing is just one manifestation of that.
03:38:08 <Ilari> ehird: Haven't got data on typical concentrations, toxicity and accumulation characteristics. So not real opinion.
03:38:25 <ehird> Specifically its addition to toothpaste and the water supplies
03:39:52 <Ilari> Want another example of big business buying (at least goverment and to lesser extent media): Global warming.
03:40:51 <ehird> Are you saying as in "Al Gore is a hypocrite" or "Climate change is a lie"
03:41:00 <ehird> Because I can agree with the first but not the second
03:42:10 <Ilari> More like "Climate change is real, and previous worst case estimates often prove optimistic"... But no action...
03:42:54 <Ilari> events of summer 2007 shot pretty much all ice models to hell. Etc.
03:43:10 <ehird> What, we have to DO things to stop it happening?! I am shocked. :P
03:44:31 <Ilari> Well, there are things about climate forecasts I don't agree with. But those involve inputs to models, not the models themselves.
03:49:35 <Ilari> Oh, and also I think climate models are too optimistic due to simplifications they make (especially effects not modelled).
03:50:09 <Ilari> Optimistic => underpredicts change.
03:50:33 <ehird> It's a good thing that "we're severely fucked" and "we're severely hugely fucked" can both only be solved by massive societal changes that will account for both.
03:50:45 <ehird> And, well, it's also a bad thing due to massive societal changes being hard.
03:50:56 <ehird> Let's get to work on a Dyson sphere.
03:51:35 <Ilari> Agree on at least being "severly fucked".
03:56:04 <Ilari> And also some parts of world have quite high population densities which can barely be supported today with industrial farming... In case of widespread system distruption, things could get VERY ugly.
03:57:01 * ehird wonders what http://typophile.com/files/sbpx_3996.png and http://typophile.com/files/roman_tr_5609.png look like on a CRT — legible handmade 3 pixel x-height entirely RGB subpixel font
03:57:54 <ehird> Probably like smudges. I can actually read most of the text in the first one sitting at a normal distance... "Lorim ipsum dolor sit am(something)- (something) ipsum miha on Typohil.com"
03:58:16 <ehird> Of course, it'd be easier to read if there wasn't that intentional typo to test its legibility.
03:58:18 <Ilari> Almost readable (mostly being too small).
03:58:32 <ehird> At least I think the typo is intentional.
03:58:59 <ehird> Ilari: I guess the fact that the general shape is still right even viewed monochromatically helps.
03:59:12 * ehird uses Sim Daltonism to see what it looks like with various forms of colourblindness
03:59:20 * ehird turns off Flux for accurate colour reproduction while doing so
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04:00:36 * Sgeo decides to get rid of his current Emacs installation and install EmacsW32
04:00:45 <ehird> Oh, apparently Color Oracle might be better.
04:00:55 <ehird> Sgeo: The best place to download EmacsW32 is at http://vim.org/
04:01:03 <Ilari> BTW: Applying red-green colorblindness filter to color within RGB gamut can result color outside it.
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04:02:00 <Sgeo> Emacs has a vim emulator, apparently
04:02:07 <Sgeo> So why ever use vim if emacs is installed?
04:02:43 <ehird> Yeah, it's just a bit too smudged.
04:02:49 <ehird> Sgeo: You really have to ask that?
04:03:08 <ehird> Ignoring entirely your incredibly brain-damaged conclusion, it does not have a vim emulator.
04:03:16 <ehird> It has viper, which assigns a subset of vim keys to similar emacs operations.
04:03:21 <ehird> Just editing commands.
04:03:58 <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
04:04:07 <ehird> ..................
04:04:13 <Sgeo> And saving, and stuff
04:04:15 <ehird> `addquote <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
04:04:16 <HackEgo> 89|<Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
04:04:21 <ehird> Gregor: (because he needs to see this for the lulz)
04:04:25 <ehird> And, uh, stop talking about editors.
04:04:44 <Gregor> ... what else ... is ther e... to vim ... ... besides editing commands???
04:05:03 <coppro> we should make an esoteric editor channel
04:05:03 <ehird> [04:02] Sgeo: Emacs has a vim emulator, apparently
04:05:03 <ehird> [04:02] Sgeo: So why ever use vim if emacs is installed?
04:05:13 <coppro> for things like butterfly coding
04:09:34 <Sgeo> WHY would I ever want to use the Win key for Meta?
04:09:55 <ehird> Because Emacs has super as well as meta.
04:10:01 <ehird> Also, why would you ever want to:
04:10:05 <ehird> (a) play tetris in your editor?
04:10:15 <ehird> (b) I'd go on, but listing all the ridiculous bloat emacs has is old hat.
04:10:24 <coppro> win key for meta is very sensible
04:10:29 <coppro> don't see why you'd want otherwis
04:10:32 <ehird> (c) The point is that if you're surprised by it, combined with your ignorance of vim,
04:10:38 <ehird> (d) why are you recommending emacs to people?
04:10:47 <coppro> what would you prefer? Context menu key for meta?
04:10:48 <ehird> (e) This list is not actually one. Fun fact.
04:10:57 <ehird> coppro: The most common is alt...
04:11:06 <coppro> alt is for alt, thankyouverymuch
04:11:13 <ehird> And what does alt do?
04:11:17 <ehird> Oh yeah, auxillary keyboard shortcuts.
04:11:19 <Sgeo> coppro, I'd like Win+D to minimize everything, even if I'm in emacs
04:11:26 <coppro> mostly modifies other keyboard shortcuts
04:11:35 <ehird> BTW, on Lisp Machine keyboards Control was where Alt is on modern machines. And Meta is where Control is.
04:11:52 <coppro> I've gotten used to Ctrl+Alt for most application shortcuts, for instance, because that's all Windows allows
04:11:55 <ehird> WIMP-style interfaces (apart from OS X) also use Control for most commands and Alt less often.
04:12:04 <ehird> So the positioning of them on most keyboards is completely backwards.
04:12:25 <ehird> Window, icon, menu, pointer.
04:12:39 <ehird> (Or weakly interacting massive particle, an astonishingly apropos term from physics.)
04:13:32 <ehird> (WIMP applications are large — they duplicate a lot of functionality and generally you switch "to" them; they are particles in of themselves in this way. They don't have a unified way to plug into other applications, so you do everything from within them and then go through tedious save/load or export/import processes, etc…)
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04:43:45 <Sgeo> Yesterday and Today's User Friendly look like they're going in a morbid direction :/
04:46:40 <ehird> UserFriendly still exists? Oh yeah, I forgot, it has to; otherwise the universe would have no unifying source of suck.
04:47:36 * Sgeo watches a YouTube video via VLC
04:48:54 <ehird> "Piracy Payback, a website that collects donations from downloaders and distributes them to rightsholder organizations in Europe and North America"
04:48:57 <ehird> Oh boy I can't wait!
04:49:07 <ehird> I'll donate negative dollars.
04:52:20 <Sgeo> Right-clicking my desktop when using a DirectX wallpaper thing was not so helpful
04:53:28 <ehird> DirectX wallpaper?
04:53:48 <ehird> Seriously, I'm just wondering if you filled your cranium with bees or something instead of the usual brain matter...
04:53:54 <ehird> DirectX. Wallpaper.
04:54:25 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm just experimenting
04:54:50 <ehird> "I'm just experimenting with eating nothing but dog excrement, you see." :P
04:56:05 <Sgeo> At any rate, this is an awesome video
04:56:17 <ehird> "Where were we, if we're here with her now? Whether weather interfered, enter "fear" to affect an effect. It's their problem its hair's there, Hare. Poop.
04:56:17 <ehird> Were where we, if were hear wither now? Weather whether enter "fear", interfere to effect an affect. Its there problem it's here's their, Here. Shit."
04:57:02 <ehird> I love the gratuitous poop/shit.
04:57:11 <ehird> …don't take that out of context.
04:57:26 <ehird> I wonder if I should get into the habit of using proper apostrophes and quotes and stuff, but those extra modifier keys are so much work.
05:01:22 <Sgeo> Why is whether or not VLC can open a YouTube video seemingly random?
05:01:39 <ehird> Your mother is random, so it turns out.
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05:30:16 <Sgeo> Warrigal: If I were to run an IRC bot, would you be angry?
05:32:18 <Sgeo> ehird, on normish
05:32:29 <ehird> I don't think even Warrigal could have inferred that context.
05:37:57 <coppro> therefore, just run your bot, and Warrigal can pass a proposal (or use sudo magic, same thing) if e disagrees
05:47:38 <ehird> such codenomics generally have the metarule "don't be a dick".
05:48:42 <ehird> [INTERLUDE: Safari crashes, I hit “Relaunch”, and then click History → Reopen All Windows from Last Session, all while wondering why that isn’t the default.]
05:48:59 <ehird> The magical “uncrash” button!
05:49:36 <ehird> I click the same link, and it crashes again. I wonder if I should upgrade Safari. Rebooting is so hard, though…
05:50:21 <ehird> Heh, and it asks me if I want to temporarily reset Safari’s settings because it crashed after relaunching from a crash.
05:50:27 <ehird> Nah; I think I’ll instead try clicking again.
05:51:03 <ehird> [clicks the magical uncrash button] Bam bam bam bam pow! A series of windows pop up and proceed to desperately load pages.
05:54:44 <ehird> I’m reading some miscellaneous windows I had floating about and closing those that I’m done with; maybe some spring cleaning will coerce Safari into opening that page.
05:55:01 <ehird> (I’m not even *that* interested in reading the page, but you know, get me started on a project…)
05:55:02 <Sgeo> ....Joel got the Emacs and vi bindings backwards
05:55:12 <Sgeo> "Emacs fanatics memorized ":q!" (and nothing else) in case they ever found themselves stuck in vi by mistake, while vi users memorized "C-x C-c" (Emacs even has its own way to represent control characters)."
05:55:16 <Sgeo> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000061.html
05:55:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: erm, that's correct
05:55:50 <ehird> The users of one editor just memorise the quit command for the other.
05:56:00 <Sgeo> I misread that line
05:56:00 <ehird> Anyway, Joel Spolsky is an idiot, by the way.
05:56:06 <Sgeo> >.> I'll shut up now
05:56:08 <Sgeo> ehird, hm, howso?
05:56:31 <ehird> His older stuff has more merit, but generally his articles fall into one of two categories: the first, obvious, and the second, idiotic. The second has one notable subcategory: Microsoft apologia.
05:57:28 <ehird> I feel more intelligent when typing in correct English with full use of appropriate typography. I wonder why that is.
05:58:25 <ehird> Heh — [[Fine, so, it's stunningly beautiful]] in response to http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/pictures/Quit_Soap.gif; our definitions of “stunningly beautiful” must differ, Joel. Then again, maybe everyone was crazy in 2000.
05:58:26 <oerjan> thats just retarded ehird
05:58:54 <ehird> oerjan: My mind instantly categorised that line as “augur”; I had to override my recognition engine and look at the name purposefully.
05:59:30 <Sgeo> ehird, I think it's attractive
05:59:37 <augur> when do i say things like that
05:59:40 <oerjan> you'd otherwise think a linguist would use correct punctuation...
05:59:55 <ehird> oerjan: <augur> oerjan: actually, no!
06:00:07 <ehird> oerjan: <augur> [long-winded rant that nobody cares about]
06:00:08 <augur> oerjan: actually, no!
06:00:34 <augur> [non-rant because im watching dark angel]
06:00:41 * augur rapes ehird like the cunt bitch he is
06:00:44 <ehird> augur: You conspicuously omit punctuation and capitalisation; I don’t know of anyone else in here that says “thats”. Plus, you often refer to me by appending my name unadorned to the end of a message.
06:00:55 <ehird> Also, you never agree with me. :P
06:01:20 <augur> i agree with you plenty, ehird
06:01:36 <ehird> Also, wrong on both accounts! I am neither a vagina (nor do I have one), nor am I a female dog.
06:02:03 <oerjan> i am not sure about the dog part
06:02:11 <augur> or that vagina part
06:02:13 <ehird> IN A WORLD WHERE I RESPOND TO SUCH QUERIES SERIOUSLY: Also, wrong on both accounts! I am not female, which is a prerequisite for being either a cunt or a bitch.
06:02:32 <ehird> oerjan: On the internet, nobody knows you’re an unfunny cartoon?
06:02:52 <ehird> I assume you refer to http://www.ricklatona.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/picresized_1229584137_youreadog.gif.
06:02:56 <augur> ehird, sure they do. thats why they know it about you!
06:02:59 * oerjan doesn't recall the original cartoon for that meme
06:03:05 <ehird> (I like the filename; “youreadog”.)
06:03:13 <ehird> oerjan: I believe it is that comic. It fails to be funny.
06:03:29 <ehird> Or humorous, maybe it fails to be humorous. I’m no wording nazi!
06:03:41 <ehird> There’s probably a fancy linguist term for “wording”. augur?
06:03:56 <augur> i dont know, im not a wording nazi either
06:05:37 <ehird> Okay, no, seriously, I will break with British punctuation for “pedophile”.
06:06:08 <oerjan> i think philology is like philosophy, the -logy is not actually in its usual suffix sense but means "of words"
06:07:34 <augur> or its study of philo!
06:07:42 <ehird> Philology, astrology; what’s the difference. (4, according to the Levenshtein distance.)
06:07:46 -!- ehird has left (?).
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06:08:09 <augur> which i guess is "love of" right?
06:08:18 <ehird> That part and join was a political statement… uh, on the nature of fat-fingeredness, I guess.
06:08:48 <oerjan> philology has the composition backwards from modern germanic languages
06:08:54 <oerjan> or something like that
06:09:05 <oerjan> (like english or norwegian)
06:09:26 <oerjan> and yes, greek is not germanic
06:10:38 <ehird> Ugh, Verdana’s {’} is so ugly.
06:10:53 <ehird> (I should probably come up with a better of quoting odd stuff than {…}.)
06:11:45 <oerjan> you lost your way there, i think
06:15:08 <ehird> oerjan: I’m not responsible for any serial killing I do in your name if you don’t explain the joke. :P
06:15:24 <Gregor> https://codu.org/projects/gjs/hg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/app/test.js I'M EVIL and now I'm going to sleep.
06:15:35 <ehird> oerjan: I… lost my +way?
06:15:56 <ehird> Gregor: What’s so evil, apart from the include() idiocy?
06:16:14 <ehird> Waitwaitwait, is this making a JSMIPS display?
06:16:24 <Gregor> lawl, no, although it could technically go in that direction.
06:16:31 <ehird> What’s the point, then?
06:16:36 <ehird> Looks just like a <canvas> to me.
06:16:42 <Gregor> This is a snippet of JS code that (with the GJS framework) runs both in a web browser and as an application.
06:17:04 <ehird> That’s… pretty pointless, yep.
06:18:38 <ehird> oerjan: Incidentally, are my wonderful typographical flourishes showing up as full stops to you?
06:19:21 <ehird> (I hate the name “full stop”; why can’t it be something graceful like “asterisk”, “ampersand”, “hyphen”, “ellipsis”, “octothorpe”, …?)
06:19:41 <oerjan> what's wrong with period?
06:20:17 <ehird> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE WHERE I SEND MESSAGES SO THAT THEY LOOK AS THEY WOULD RENDERED BY OERJAN’S CLIENT IN THE REGULAR UNIVERSE: (I hate the name .full stop.; why can.t it be something graceful like .asterisk., .ampersand., .hyphen., .ellipsis., .octothorpe., .?)
06:20:33 <ehird> oerjan: They’re sexist, only women get them. Plus, I hear they’re rather uncomfortable.
06:20:46 <oerjan> no, your quotes turn into " mostly
06:20:48 <ehird> …which is, incidentally, my answer to both meanings of that question.
06:21:07 <ehird> oerjan: Ah. Then that message was written IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE WHERE I LIE.
06:21:30 <oerjan> your ellipsis, on the other hand, turns into full stops (3 of them)
06:21:58 <oerjan> while anything irssi doesn't actually understand turns into ?
06:22:43 <ehird> I thought Unicode jiggery-pokery, at least the non-understood variety, was turned into full stops by your client.
06:22:51 <ehird> You’ve that that in the past, I think.
06:22:57 <ehird> Well, more than think; I’m fairly sure.
06:23:15 <oerjan> your grammar is seriously deteriorating
06:23:21 <ehird> Alright then. Any reason why you won’t set up your terminal to be all UTF-8? :P
06:23:34 <ehird> oerjan: I don’t see how it’s deteriorating at all.
06:23:44 <oerjan> <ehird> You've that that in the past, I think.
06:24:13 <ehird> (Perl regular expression syntax is so… uncouth.)
06:24:22 <ehird> (That’s a rightwards-pointing arrow, by the way.)
06:25:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> [18:03] AnMaster: fizzie, sucks if you prefer lightly toasted bread :P
06:25:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> MILDLY BROWN! MILDLY BROWN!
06:25:44 <ehird> oerjan: I’d rather have nitpicked “all UTF-8”.
06:25:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Toast should be mildly brown! Unless you’re toasting brown bread, in which case it should be, uh, brown.
06:26:24 <ehird> oerjan: As in, it’s rendered as {->}, or it’s a single glyph that resembles {->}?
06:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird, no... it should be "slightly brown" which is one step lower
06:26:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Heretic. Die. Burn. Fire. Brimstone. Suffering. Eternal. Go. Now.
06:27:25 <ehird> Incidentally, I hear eternal fire and brimstone makes for some *excellent* toast.
06:27:25 <oerjan> toast, a rarely noticed but fierce english holy war
06:29:24 <ehird> But sometimes they don’t make sense
06:30:00 * oerjan swats ehird for bungling the meter on the last line -----###
06:30:40 <ehird> That’s the joke! Stop swatting me. It’s an adaptation of a common joke!
06:30:52 <ehird> NORMALLY IT SAYS “REFRIGERATOR” INSTEAD OF “BURMA-SHAVE”!
06:31:17 <oerjan> I AM FULLY AWARE. AUM. ALSO, -----###
06:31:41 <ehird> Also, is http://xkcd.com/647/ meant to be funny or something? Rare is the 8-year-old who would say such a thing without being told to (as in the hover text), and you could probably get a good portion of 6-year-olds to say the same, albeit possibly simplified.
06:31:59 <oerjan> my first impression was "empty"
06:32:06 <oerjan> no content worth mentioning
06:32:19 <ehird> So is the joke “Hey, there are kids born after 9/11 who are OLD ENOUGH TO SUCCESSFULLY CARRY OUT INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO THEM BY AN ADULT!”?
06:32:25 <ehird> Because… that’s not actually funny.
06:32:33 <ehird> Oh, wait, it’s xkcd.
06:33:21 <ehird> oerjan: Also, did you seriously just give a damning critique of an xkcd comic?
06:33:24 <ehird> Because… that’s not like you.
06:33:58 <ehird> (I’ve said “Because…” twice in two minutes! What has become of this world‽)
06:34:10 <ehird> (Okay, okay, no more interrobangs, I swear, STOP SWATTING ME)
06:35:12 <oerjan> interrobangs show up as ? incidentally.
06:35:43 <ehird> It was “What has become of this world[interrobang]”.
06:35:46 <ehird> oerjan: Who, me or you?
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06:38:08 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/?p=230
06:39:22 <ehird> I finally re-clicked that link. Safari promptly crashed.
06:43:59 <ehird> http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?pid=fkb10487
06:44:32 <ehird> So, I *can* replace the Windows key, albeit for a ridiculous price and a lot of waste.
06:45:05 <ehird> Furthermore, if the non-Otaku edition comes back in stock I can just get two of those replacement sets; one to make the keycaps blank, and another to replace the Windows keys.
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06:50:58 <oklopol> also nothing wrong with the xkcd imo
06:52:38 <ehird> oklopol: Nothing… “wrong” with it, but it isn’t funny.
06:53:28 <ehird> That is generally considered a floor for a comic (from “comedy”). :P
06:53:45 <ehird> Homonym typos are so weird, and your mom is homo in bed. Uhh.
06:53:54 <ehird> And I... guess that’s weird?
06:55:15 <oklopol> took quite a second to realize those two are homonyms
06:55:26 <oklopol> perhaps partly because i pronounce the r a bit
06:55:35 <oklopol> hello ehird you're an ircer dude
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06:55:43 <ehird> Yeah I believe so!!
06:55:48 <ehird> I totally am. Rad.
06:55:49 <oklopol> maybe i should start introducing others to others
06:56:05 <oklopol> hi ehird, the guy who came in is FireFly!
06:56:14 <ehird> Back to proper grammar now.
06:56:22 <ehird> oklopol: Total dude? I am intrigued by this concept.
06:56:29 <ehird> What is a total dude?
06:56:48 <oklopol> don't ask me, i just introduce
06:57:24 <ehird> oklopol's a Finnish total introducer.
06:57:30 <ehird> Introducer, transducer, what is the difference.
06:58:11 <ehird> FireFly: Is your typing POSITIVELY HARDCORE with MANLY QWERTY, LAYOUT OF KINGS?†
06:58:27 <ehird> † I am only saying this because I’ve (half-heartedly) tried, and failed, to switch to Dvorak.
06:58:54 <FireFly> Actually, I still _can_ write on Qwerty, though semi-slow
07:00:22 <oklopol> i once tried to switch to dvorak, but i did it using software, which always leads to stopping to use said software after a few days
07:00:45 <ehird> oklopol: Heh, why?
07:01:06 <ehird> Not that I expect a coherent answer; I mean, you *are* oklopol.
07:01:14 <oklopol> why change? i hate qwerty, not as much as i hate the fact the rows of keys aren't aligned sensibly, but i hate it.
07:01:37 <ehird> That staggering is stupid, indeed. But the latter.
07:01:54 <ehird> oklopol: Do you hunt-and-peck or touch type?
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07:06:10 <ehird> THE WORLD WILL NEVER KNOW.
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07:26:09 <Rugxulo> I know mtve is never here, but ...
07:26:21 <Rugxulo> seems his eta_hello.bef works in Emacs' Befunge-mode.el (just really really slow)
07:26:22 <ehird> You should probably try to email him.
07:27:00 <ehird> Also, *-mode is a mode to edit *, not a mode to run *.
07:28:51 <ehird> Then it shouldn’t be called befunge-mode.
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07:35:56 <Rugxulo> hmmm, Win32 Emacs whines: "Args out of range"
07:36:02 <Rugxulo> yet it works in the DJGPP build :-P
07:36:11 -!- ehird has joined.
07:36:30 <Rugxulo> you missed my report: "args out of range" (Win32) while DJGPP works fine
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07:47:00 <Rugxulo> okay, take it back, works in Win32 Emacs too ;-)
07:48:38 <ehird> Win32 Emacs = EmacsW32 or regular Emacs?
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07:48:48 <oklopol> ehird: something in-between
07:49:13 <ehird> EmacsW32 = CVS Emacs + Windows-helping patches.
07:49:20 <Rugxulo> GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i386-mingw-nt6.0.6002) of 2009-07-29 on SOFT-MJASON
07:49:21 <oklopol> i move my hands around the kb
07:49:22 <ehird> Should be merged into mainline but won’t be.
07:49:34 <oklopol> i would learn to touch type if i had a proper keyboard
07:49:43 <ehird> oklopol: I class touch-typing as typing without having to think where the keys are, fuck everything else
07:49:49 <ehird> Who cares about the home row?
07:49:53 <oklopol> well obviously i don't think where keys are
07:50:07 <oklopol> but moving my hands leads to me making a lot of mistakes
07:50:51 <oklopol> also i have to look when pressing some of the special chars
07:52:06 <ehird> I know where !, @, #, $, %, &, ( and ) are on the top row.
07:52:09 <ehird> Maybe ^ at a stretch.
07:52:23 <ehird> I always have to look to get *; usually I just use the numpad version.
07:52:32 <ehird> But I know where all the other special keys are.
07:53:09 <oklopol> i use * for corrections, so it's basically my middle name
07:53:25 <ehird> oklopol * omniovorol
07:53:32 <ehird> Or however you spell it.
07:54:37 <Rugxulo> easy to remember 'cause vi uses Ctrl-6 (or Ctrl-^) to switch files (aka, :e#)
07:55:04 <Rugxulo> P.S. ehird, ever used Acrobat Reader for DOS 8-)
07:55:10 <ehird> Yeah, but I can't touch-type numbers on the top row.
07:55:17 <ehird> So I can't go, oh, this is 6.
07:55:20 <ehird> Well, I did just there.
07:55:38 <ehird> Rugxulo: No. I hope to never use another version of Reader in my life.
07:55:43 <Rugxulo> well, the whole reason for a numpad is that it's easier to type numbers, right?
07:55:47 <ehird> I used to, back in the 5 days, iirc, but I was young and naive.
07:55:55 <ehird> Boy it took a long time to start up.
07:56:02 <Rugxulo> ehird, it's an old (DOS/4G-based??) version that doesn't accept modern .PDFs, heh, it's kinda a bad joke
07:56:05 <ehird> Rugxulo: No, it's easier to type *solely* numbers, and LONG strings of numbers.
07:56:21 <ehird> It's manifestly much slower when you add in the time it takes to move to the numpad and back.
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07:56:32 <ehird> Besides, it's negligible unless you're tallying numbers all day.
07:56:58 <Rugxulo> anyways, got this old CD-ROM game (Falcon 3.0) which had Acroread for DOS and separately Win 3.1 version ('cause the manual was in .PDF)
07:57:00 <oklopol> and you can't stand using it anyway because it's hand racist
07:57:28 <ehird> Cross your hands and try to type
07:57:43 <ehird> It'd suptrermrliucikbfgyadiujb
07:57:48 <ehird> It's supremely confusing.
07:58:06 <ehird> Hey! Fun idea time! Can Windows 3.11 run on FreeDOS?
07:58:07 <Rugxulo> I think the Lynx is the only (or one of the only) reversable portable gaming machines
07:58:10 <ehird> It can run on DOSBox.
07:58:21 <Rugxulo> ehird, in /S "standard mode", yes, but not in 386 enhanced
07:58:30 <ehird> Oh, so in boring DOS-compatibility mode only?
07:58:33 <Rugxulo> too many undocumented things, and apparently the developers aren't interested
07:58:34 <ehird> THAT IS LAME LIKE A LAME THING
07:58:34 <oklopol> okay i'm not very fluent at cross-typing
07:58:54 <ehird> `addquote <oklopol> hmm, this is hard
07:58:57 <HackEgo> 90|<oklopol> hmm, this is hard
07:59:03 <ehird> IMMORTALISED FOREVER
07:59:09 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
07:59:12 <HackEgo> 20|<Warrigal> I'm the mug guy.
07:59:15 <HackEgo> 67|<Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
07:59:17 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
07:59:20 <HackEgo> 68|<ehird> thanks AnMaster
07:59:23 <HackEgo> 73|<AnMaster> ehird, well yes probably
07:59:27 <ehird> GIVE ME A TWO-LINED ONE
07:59:29 <HackEgo> 84|<Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see?
07:59:33 <ehird> Yay. ...wait, what?
07:59:33 <oklopol> ehird: did you master cross-typing right away?
07:59:40 <ehird> oklopol: No, I did it for only one line:
07:59:47 <ehird> [07:57] ehird: It'd suptrermrliucikbfgyadiujb
07:59:56 <ehird> Trying to type "It's supremely confusing."
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08:00:04 <HackEgo> 31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
08:00:13 <HackEgo> 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :(
08:00:17 <HackEgo> 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
08:00:22 <HackEgo> 17|<GKennethR-L> :d <(I can lick my nose!)
08:00:28 <HackEgo> 74|<oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
08:00:33 <ehird> It looks like it's licking its eyes
08:00:36 <ehird> And look at the previous one
08:00:41 <ehird> HACKEGO YOU ARE *FREAKING* ME OUT
08:00:42 <Rugxulo> itsj siuoptrimsweluy ciom,nfiuasimnfg
08:00:56 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
08:01:07 <ehird> #1. That's, like, a one in 75 chance.
08:01:15 <ehird> Correction. One in 90, exactly.
08:01:23 <oklopol> i just make a mistake every 3 letters
08:01:35 <ehird> FreeDOS is able to run Microsoft Windows 1.0 and 2.0 releases. Windows 3.x releases, which had support for i386 processors, can be run in 386 Enhanced Mode since FreeDOS kernel build 2037[21].
08:01:52 <Rugxulo> no, I don't think that's correct
08:02:01 <ehird> 2039 came out this August
08:02:01 <Rugxulo> 2037 had experimental changes, too many actually
08:02:17 <Rugxulo> but it's buggy and doesn't contain everything 2037 had (yet) although they started to try merging COUNTRY.SYS support
08:02:23 <Rugxulo> 2037 was never properly vetted
08:02:41 <Sgeo> Why am I still awake?
08:02:54 <Rugxulo> 2037 "WinKern" exists but I never tested it, and from what I heard, it only worked well in /S 286 mode (any DOS shells crashed)
08:03:24 <Sgeo> Also, I probably won't do it, but I'm thinking of making an LSL interpreter in LSL
08:03:33 <Rugxulo> 2039 had regressions in both Breadbox Ensemble and finddisk (and maybe other things)
08:03:48 * Rugxulo wants to maybe write an ETA interpreter in x86 asm
08:03:49 <Sgeo> (Or at least a something-similar-to-LSL interpreter... LSL doesn't have multidimensional lists...)
08:04:23 <Rugxulo> I guess I'm part of the "I don't really like Win 3.1 anyways"
08:04:40 <ehird> Sgeo: You can only do multidimensional lists if the language has support for them?
08:04:45 <ehird> Are you *sure* you're a programmer?
08:05:29 <Rugxulo> there are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, and those that don't
08:05:54 <Sgeo> ehird, assuming I'm not fixing the size, and I don't want to go through the list moving everything around just to increase the size
08:06:27 <ehird> Rugxulo: That was funny in 1980.
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08:16:33 * Rugxulo wonders why it got so quiet
08:17:25 <Sgeo> I suppose I could um... actually, understanding memory management might help me
08:17:47 <Sgeo> Well, good night all
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08:30:09 <ehird> Rugxulo: nothing to say
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09:04:37 <fizzie> Based on the country this box was sent from, there's either the power supply for that web server laptop, or a letter-bomb from ehird.
09:05:20 <fizzie> If there's a mention in the news about an explosion, at least you know who to blame.
09:06:29 <fizzie> Well, it looks like a power supply to me. It could still be a bomb in disguise; I guess I won't know until I get home and plug it in.
09:07:11 <ehird> Who says it can't be both? Cough. Um, I mean, no comment.
09:07:53 <fizzie> If it's going to explode, actually working as a power supply seems, I don't know, a bit superfluous.
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09:34:18 <ehird> fizzie: It will explode ... in some years, when it dies.
09:34:27 <ehird> It will be a very small explosion.
09:36:49 <ehird> fizzie: Sorry, did I say something?
09:36:51 <ehird> I mean no comment.
09:43:22 <fizzie> Oh, and speaking of broken things, the monitor arrived back today, with no real explanations what was wrong with it. The parts list in the receipt says something like "UF3300 10V", 2 pieces; and the job-done field says "No power. Repaired."
09:44:09 <fizzie> Hmm, or maybe it was 3300UF 10V, in which case it could mean a 3300 µF capacitor.
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12:05:21 <Warrigal> Grr, everybody I want to talk to is absent.
12:06:17 <Warrigal> Sgeo: I would be extremely content if you were to do that. oerjan: are you saying the order of affixes in Greek-derived words like "philosophy" is language-dependent?
12:06:54 <Warrigal> Hmm, no, oerjan's not saying that.
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12:37:52 <ehird> Concise report of using Ubuntu for quite a few days full-time and not really thinking about OS X, then using OS X for a day or two: GNOME has a high level of crafted usability. But OS X has an intangible comfiness to it. Sorry, it looks like I'm stuck with proprietary software for another day.
12:39:04 <ehird> Also, someone really needs to write an iTunes replacement that's actually Mac-like.
12:47:55 <ehird> Ooh, Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Now I can ignore all future results for it.
12:48:07 <ehird> Thank you for taking that mental load off me, committee!
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13:15:25 <oklopol> so you think they made such a great decision further awardings will not have been earned, in comparison
13:16:05 <oklopol> i want to talk to everyone that is absent
13:16:42 <ehird> oklopol: no, more like Obama is a totally bullshit choice
13:17:13 <ehird> you may have known i meant that and are joking, but you never know
13:19:08 <oklopol> i always thought of the piece thing as a bullshit award anyway
13:19:39 <ehird> it is a bit silly to give out an award i guess
13:19:51 <ehird> but at least the awardees actually fit the description beforehand
13:20:13 <oklopol> what had obama supposedly done to deserve it?
13:21:03 <oklopol> i mean i have no idea what's happened after his election, anywhere in the world, except for the few random pieces of news that have managed to penetrate my closed eyelids
13:21:29 <ehird> i guess he's said he's going to close guantanamo bay!
13:21:45 <ehird> also continued all those, you know, wars, and actually have the US kill more people than before
13:23:11 <oklopol> well you can't stop a war before you've properly won
13:23:44 <ehird> incidentally, OS fight! you have a word in a document. what are the quickest steps to looking it up on wikipedia
13:24:26 <ehird> OS X: hover over it. ⌃⌘D. click "More…". click Wikipedia.
13:25:15 <ehird> i'm thinkin' pretty much give up now here
13:25:16 <oklopol> what i do is i double-click, copy, go to google, and write "word wikipedia i am an cool wikipedia"
13:25:29 <ehird> yah, those aren't complete results
13:25:33 <oklopol> then usually i get crappy results and remove whatever random i added
13:25:35 <ehird> here's the actual steps for those:
13:26:11 <ehird> double click it. right click. click "Copy". control-t. google.com. ctrl-v. type " wikipedia". enter. click the first relevant link.
13:26:19 <ehird> bonus: the last step involves a large cognitive load!
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13:27:05 <oklopol> also i usually have IE closed because otherwise i have a hard time opening other programs
13:27:10 <Deewiant> double-click, control-c, (N*) alt-tab, control-t, type "w ", control-v, enter.
13:27:14 <oklopol> you see vista can handle about 8 windows
13:27:26 <oklopol> after that opening them fails
13:27:29 <oklopol> and you have to close a few
13:27:49 <Deewiant> N depends on the windows open and their alt-tab order.
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13:28:06 <ehird> OS X's is cooler because it displays in the pretty Dictionary interface.
13:28:36 <ehird> http://imgur.com/Jc6wK.png
13:28:55 <ehird> (which also marks the first OS vendor to officially endorse Wikipedia, I'm pretty sure)
13:28:57 <ehird> oklopol: your mom is hideous
13:29:02 <ehird> but i don't complain about it on IRC
13:29:06 <ehird> also, by hideous you mean lovely.
13:29:25 <ehird> I MAY HAVE ENABLED YOUR MONOSPACE FETISH BUT I CANNOT SUPPORT IT
13:29:30 <oklopol> my internet connection is so slow i suck as an ircer if i actually wait for pages to load before commenting
13:30:06 <oklopol> well you can't just wait and see where the opponent hits the ball
13:30:12 <oklopol> you have to read his movements
13:30:16 <ehird> the wikipedia tab is surprisingly capable, handles infoboxes and everything just fine
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13:30:25 <ehird> and opens image pages and stuff in a browser
13:30:31 <ehird> http://imgur.com/Jc6wK.png
13:30:52 <ehird> from the OS-included-and-integrated Dictionary.app
13:31:16 <ais523> doesn't seem to be much in common between the definitions
13:31:23 <ais523> additionally, it seems to get its info from Wikipedia
13:31:25 <ais523> but I knew that already
13:31:26 <ehird> ais523: look at the tab bar or title bar
13:31:47 <ehird> [13:23] ehird: incidentally, OS fight! you have a word in a document. what are the quickest steps to looking it up on wikipedia
13:31:47 <ehird> [13:24] ehird: OS X: hover over it. ⌃⌘D. click "More…". click Wikipedia.
13:31:49 <ehird> is what brought it up
13:31:52 <ais523> gah, Windows 7 has started booting to a blank screen again
13:32:08 <ais523> also, Ubuntu doesn't do anything like that by default
13:32:10 <Deewiant> ehird: You're forgetting "move your hand to the mouse", btw.
13:32:10 <ehird> (⌃⌘D pops up a little definition below the word, and More… starts Dictionary on it; Wikipedia switches the tab)
13:32:26 <ais523> although I could almost certainly write a compiz script to do it
13:32:30 <ehird> Deewiant: That's implied in any mouse action. Besides, plug in a ThinkPad USB keyboard and use the TrackPoint. :P
13:32:54 <ehird> Who cares with a non-numpadded keyboard or a notebook, anyway? The latency is low there; not ideal, but low.
13:33:07 <ehird> Anyway, OS X uses the mouse so much that switching to it becomes a highly optimised act. :P
13:33:10 <Deewiant> No, because those keyboards suck in most if not every other way :-P
13:33:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Buy a Unicomp with a nub mouse
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13:33:47 <ehird> Buckling spring sucks, but is acceptable for latency pedants!
13:33:49 <Deewiant> No, because those keyboards suck in many other ways :-P
13:33:55 <ehird> fizzie: you pop up a console window now?
13:34:01 <Deewiant> And their nub reportedly sucks too
13:34:13 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure I'm the only person allowed to like mechanical keyswitches but not buckling springs.
13:34:16 <fizzie> ehird: My home-router/irc-bouncer stopped responding.
13:34:33 <ehird> the joke ------------>
13:34:36 <Deewiant> ehird: That's not what I was referring to.
13:35:03 <ehird> Deewiant: How do they suck in other ways? Also, it is keeping guard of the happiness.
13:35:13 <ehird> In case anyone tries to steal it.
13:35:32 <Deewiant> Suboptimal key layout, numpadness, groove on caps lock
13:35:42 <oklopol> fizzie: on the plus side, you're quite close to finding happiness
13:35:46 <Deewiant> Possibly something else, that's just off the top of my head :-P
13:35:46 <ehird> US layout is so optimal, bitch; granted; granted.
13:35:52 <ehird> Why do they put grooves on caps locks, btw?
13:35:55 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, I just need to look up.
13:36:06 <ehird> fizzie: THE BUNNY WILL GET YOU
13:36:11 <Deewiant> To prevent people from pressing it accidentally when they press 'a'
13:36:52 <ehird> GAIN, DEEWIANT, I DON'T SEE WHY THAT'S A PROBLEM
13:38:49 <ehird> i wanted to support unicomp but all their keyboards are suboptimal
13:39:09 <ehird> it seems that nobody but filco realises that ergonomics does not have to imply a blatant disregard for economy of space
13:39:18 <Deewiant> All keyboards are suboptimal though
13:40:29 <oklopol> i've heard they're good once you learn to use them, but everyone i know who has one only uses it as a last resort, and sucks at it
13:40:42 <ehird> Nub mice are mostly utter crap.
13:40:49 <ehird> Exceptions: Uhh. ThinkPads.
13:41:32 <ehird> oklopol: But really, nub mice themselves are slower than touchpads, which are slower than regular mice. But when combined with typing, they are fast.
13:41:33 <oklopol> i want to control my comp by 10 nubs, one for each finger
13:41:49 <ehird> You're no longer either typing or mousing, both become integrated, and mouse-based interfaces become even more awesome.
13:42:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Me too, but statistics show they're faster.
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13:42:20 <ehird> The only touchpad I have seen that does not repulse me is the one in the new MacBook Pro.
13:42:25 <Deewiant> Statistics use normal people :-P
13:42:37 <ehird> It's huge, glass-covered, the whole thing's a button and it's multi-touch. Wonderful.
13:42:51 <fizzie> 10 nub mice combined with 10 separate (differently-coloured) cursors. Now *that's* efficiency!
13:43:00 <ehird> As a pointing device, possibly superior to regular mice. And it has a lower latency time than real mice.
13:43:10 <ehird> oklopol: whut's the :DDDDDDDDDDDDDs
13:43:21 <oklopol> ehird: fizzie's awesome idea
13:43:28 <ehird> why differently coloured
13:43:34 <ehird> you know which way you're pushing them.
13:43:41 <ehird> you know which way you're pushing them.
13:43:49 <ehird> BE A REAL FUCKING MAN
13:43:55 <oklopol> so that you can superimpose 10 guis
13:43:59 <ehird> in fact all pointers should just be one pixel
13:44:04 <ehird> and that pixel is the pixel that is activated
13:44:24 <ehird> it should be an inverted pixel, because it's important to know what colour is behind the pointer
13:44:35 <ehird> also because any given colour would be arbitrary
13:44:37 <Deewiant> Except that seeing one pixel out of 2.3 million is damn hard
13:44:58 <ehird> It's for real men.
13:45:21 <Deewiant> Real men don't need a pointer at all, they remember where they left it
13:45:42 <ehird> Compelling argument
13:45:52 <ehird> Maybe we can compromise with a half-pixel-squared pointer.
13:46:03 <ehird> Well, okay, two-thirds-pixel-squared.
13:46:16 <ehird> (Think: subpixels.)
13:46:44 <ehird> Well, not squared I guess.
13:46:44 <ehird> Or the other way around, whatever
13:47:52 <ehird> Anyway, Filco flaws less irrelevant than nublessness: Keys are still staggered in that age-old, fucking-stupid arrangement.
13:48:37 <ehird> The second column (after main, before numpad) is arranged in an arbitrary fashion and has a lot of unused space.
13:48:45 <ehird> THAT FUCKING VISTA BUMP AAAAAAAAAAARGH
13:48:53 <oklopol> good to know someone else finds that complain worthy too
13:49:11 <ehird> Useless menu key (would be non-retarded as a modifier key if it was on the left side too)
13:49:12 <ehird> And probably more I could mention if I actually had one
13:49:54 <ehird> oklopol: Get a Kinesis Advantage. They even advertise their vertical layout :P http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/benefits.htm
13:49:58 <ehird> Of course, a lot else changes too...
13:51:01 <oklopol> (reversed order of those to a less standard one)
13:51:21 <ehird> the kinesis is 5x4 (regular dimension format :P)
13:51:26 <ehird> times two, obviously
13:51:27 <ehird> plus some extra shit
13:51:40 <ehird> also, they use Cherry brown switches
13:51:47 <oklopol> i've been playing with matrices a lot this week
13:51:54 <ehird> so the Advantage classes as a Real Fucking Keyboard with the caveat that it does not go CLICK
13:52:01 <ehird> so it's only a lower-denizen Real Fucking Keyboard
13:52:52 <oklopol> anyway need to do a thing, i'm not gonna tell you what, but it has to do with matrices
13:53:00 <ehird> sexually abuse them?
13:53:18 <oklopol> yeah i'm gonna punish their eigenvalues
13:53:40 <ehird> anyway I'd love to switch to a Kinesis Advantage with Dvorak, but I'm such a lazy bastard that a Filco Majestouch should do for now
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14:06:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:12:05 <ehird> I hereby decree a new law of the School of Traditional Multi-Pass Compilation is Fucking Stupid for Performance:
14:12:43 <ehird> If you can't compile (KDE|X11) within 15 minutes on a modern dual-core computer (running in parallel), with a regular 7200rpm desktop disk, you suck.
14:13:10 <ehird> note: all C[++] compilers in the world now suck
14:23:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Theoretically, that Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Click Otaku could be obtained directly from Asia, right?
14:23:29 <ehird> Since elitekeyboards just import.
14:24:06 <Deewiant> If you make an order for 1000 units, probably :-P
14:24:06 <ehird> (Huh, apparently some Majestouches are available in Bluetooth. Now that'd be fun.)
14:24:18 <ehird> But the FILCO branding is so... consumer!
14:25:40 <ehird> "SteelSeries 7G redefines “anti-ghosting" by supporting as many simultaneous key presses as there are keys on the keyboard."
14:25:40 <ehird> — http://www.steelseries.com/us/products/keyboards/7g/information
14:25:40 <ehird> Well, that answers my question.
14:27:35 <ehird> I can see why linear switches are useful for gaming; now the Blacks are justified to me.
14:27:42 <ehird> <ehird> […]now the [b]lacks are justified to me.
14:28:26 <fizzie> I was going to say "isn't that what gaming keyboards always say in their advertisement blurbs?", but apparently it even isn't; a randomly picked Razer keyboard says it supports "up to an unprecedented 10 buttons at one go without the "ghosting" effect (For a conventional keyboard, signal failure occurs when three to four keys are pressed simultaneously)"
14:28:33 <fizzie> 10 doesn't sound so very impressive to me.
14:28:55 <ehird> They usually support N-key rollover, which isn't "you can press every key on the board at once".
14:29:34 <fizzie> A computer keyboard circuit that allows any number of keys to be pressed in succession without having to lift a finger from any of the previous keys."
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14:30:07 <ehird> I've forgotten the difference, but I'm sure there is one. Oi Deewiant.
14:30:59 <Deewiant> The 'N' is often a specific number but if it's just 'N' it's that, isn't it?
14:31:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, it seems that they quite freely use the term "N-key rollover" even when their N is actually a smallish integer.
14:31:24 <ehird> Every single key? I mean all of them.
14:31:29 <ehird> Not just alphanumeric.
14:31:32 <ehird> At the same time, all at once.
14:31:35 <ehird> NOT one after another.
14:31:35 <fizzie> That's what the definition says.
14:31:38 <ehird> Which I'd guess is easier.
14:31:42 <ehird> And is what the definition says.
14:32:36 <fizzie> "any number of keys without having to lift a finger from any of the previous keys"; that means you can have all the K-1 keys of the keyboard pressed, and it still will correctly detect the last key.
14:33:00 <ehird> That doesn't imply using a metal plate to smash every single key at once.
14:36:09 <fizzie> They're still going to actually connect in some particular order. But yes, I guess it's possible that it could fail to detect multiple keys getting pressed during some (very) short scanning interval. Not sure that's very likely though.
14:40:07 <fizzie> If you're going to bother with making each key independently scannable, one would hope you'd spare the tiny bit of logic needed to handle an arbitrary number of them changing state at the same time. But I'm no keyboard manufacturer.
14:41:40 <ehird> every key should have a separate controller
14:44:24 <fizzie> Yes. A 105-USB-cable trunk would be a sight to behold.
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14:46:20 <ehird> what if i want to press more than 6 keys at once on my one key
14:47:20 <ehird> I like ADB because its diagram is so simple!
14:47:31 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/eb/ADB_Icon.svg
14:47:38 <ehird> Can't get more trivial than that
14:48:38 <ehird> Admittedly the S-Video inserter-cables are rather fragile.
14:49:19 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Apple_ADB_Keyboard.jpg
14:49:36 <ehird> Hey Caps-Lock-becomes-Control people! Dislike Apple? YOU MUST COMPROMISE
14:49:42 <fizzie> I was just thinking that in a regular computer, you're more likely to find 105 USB ports than 105 ADB ports. Though maybe the probabilities are marginal enough in both cases.
14:49:51 <ehird> (That ~` key is in a truly ridiculous place.)
14:50:21 <ehird> (And what is with that reset key? And the caps lock, for that matter? And the |\ key?)
14:50:23 <ehird> (FURTHERMORE, what is the deal with airline food?
14:51:12 <fizzie> At least the cursor key layout is more sensible than, say, in a C64.
14:51:34 <ehird> "Anonymous Apple ADB Keyboard: it's saner than the C64."
14:51:47 <ehird> Apple's standards sure have improved over the years. :P
14:52:44 <ehird> "The Apple Lisa: Sometimes less painful than putting a hedgehog corpse filled with tapeworms and boiliilng water up your arsehole!"
14:53:17 <ehird> "Apple I: Does not always melt you into a vat of pure agony!"
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14:54:27 <fizzie> I like the power button key, though; it was used (with modifiers) for debuggery sort of tasks. (In models without the programmer's switch.)
14:55:03 <fizzie> Wasn't there some sort of "shift-power" shortcut to show active elements in a hypercard stack, or do I just misremember?
14:55:57 <ehird> Who knows? What I DO know is that the Apple IIc had a switch to switch from QWERTY to Dvorak and back again!
14:56:14 <ehird> I find it so awesome that that'd be an easily-accessible switch on mass-market consumer hardware.
15:04:32 <AnMaster> ⤳ U+2933 WAVE ARROW POINTING DIRECTLY RIGHT
15:04:39 <AnMaster> I wonder why they pointed out "directly" there
15:05:02 <ais523> maybe there's a WAVE ARROW POINTING APPROXIMATELY IGHT
15:05:54 <ais523> incidentally, I had a go at writing a Feather interpreter
15:06:02 <ais523> the one I have atm doesn't work, but I think I know what's wrong
15:06:54 <ais523> the issue is that causality loops are all very well in Feather, but tend not to work in Scheme
15:07:27 <AnMaster> ais523, know how to fix it though?
15:07:46 <AnMaster> ais523, also, why scheme? Supposedly any TC language would work
15:07:49 <ais523> the issue is with the first generation of bootstrapping, if I make the change I think
15:07:52 <ais523> and because scheme has call/cc
15:07:57 <ais523> and first-class functions
15:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you can in theory implement that in, say, C too. Would be quite a bit more work though
15:08:15 <ehird> ais523: wild speculation - the only way to run Feather programs acceptably will be via a custom-written C vm, because using retroactivity blows up supermegaexponentially when using scheme
15:08:23 <ehird> (i.e., because you have to fudge it with call/cc)
15:08:25 <ais523> ehird: I'm almost certain that'll be the case
15:08:46 <ehird> I'll be disappointed if it isn't :P
15:08:50 <ais523> but having something working at all will be good to be able to prove that the language will work
15:09:11 <ais523> I have crazy ideas of optimising Feather interps which involve using diff-based call/cc
15:09:19 <ais523> as in, it works out what would change in the program, rather than rerunning
15:09:25 <ehird> sweet, Dictionary's Wikipedia support can search
15:09:36 <ehird> as opposed to just view a named page
15:09:58 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you bootstrap in multiple steps, each one slightly more advanced than the further? And then more or less hide the lower layers at some point.
15:10:12 <ehird> "Can't you just abstract?"
15:10:15 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what I am doing
15:10:15 <ehird> what a useless question...
15:10:24 <ehird> "Why no, in fact I cannot abstract at all."
15:10:27 <ais523> in fact, I now have something like three stages of Feather interpretation
15:10:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> sweet, Dictionary's Wikipedia support can search <-- what is wrong with just using wikipedia straight away?
15:10:51 <ais523> a Feather seed (what I'm writing, it is something that doesn't obey all the rules of Feather, but /can/ be retroactively modified so it does)
15:11:02 <ais523> a Feather kernel (something that implements a subset of Feather sufficient to bootstrap to the whole thing)
15:11:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: There is a LEFTWARDS WAVE ARROW; I guess they wanted to be more specific.
15:11:11 <ais523> and a Feather interpreter (which implements the whole thing)
15:11:24 <AnMaster> oh btw I have here a python module using tkinter that gives strange errors under linux but works flawlessly under windows. No it doesn't use any platform specific features as far as I can tell. No I didn't write it.
15:11:52 <AnMaster> one of the strange errors: "RuntimeError: Calling Tcl from different appartment" [sic]
15:12:00 <fizzie> Especially since the leftwards wave arrow, ↜, points into a bit upwardish direction; there's an obvious market niche for a straight-left wave-arrow.
15:12:33 <ehird> AnMaster: 1. Integration with the Dictionary/Thesaurus/Apple terminology — for instance, if you look up a word in "All", it'll have multiple entries inlined, including the Wikipedia one. 2. Native OS X interface: cleaner, more minimal, and with a more dictionary-like font. I wouldn't use it to read [[Barack Obama]], but for looking up terminology it's wonderful. 3. Bonus reason: ⌃⌘D while hovering over the word pops up the little inline definition. From
15:12:33 <ehird> it's Two Clicks to Wikipedia['s Article](TM): click "More…", click "Wikipedia".
15:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you are back on OS X? How comes?
15:13:06 <ehird> I needed to reboot into OS X to do something and I'm both too lazy to reboot and perfectly happy.
15:13:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: 219C, 219D; the basic "Arrows" block.
15:13:26 <fizzie> ehird: How did you manage to avoid the BUNNY?!
15:13:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Dictionary actually comes with OS X, so it's pretty cool seeing "All Dictionary Thesaurus Apple Wikipedia".
15:13:42 <ehird> fizzie: I DON'T KNOW MAN
15:13:51 <oklopol> AnMaster: an insanely funny inside joke
15:14:00 <ehird> Super-duper-hilarious.
15:14:33 <ehird> Mmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaybe.
15:15:05 <ehird> It's not an inside joke if AnMaster knows.
15:15:36 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but then I'm inside too. But, for example, lots of people not in this channel are outside it
15:15:51 <ehird> Yes, but you ruin humour, you see.
15:16:00 <ehird> The "inside"' part isn't lost; the "joke" part is.
15:16:33 <ehird> Aaaaand this is why I wish I'd never replied to fizzie
15:16:40 <AnMaster> it is impossible to destroy something as flawless as a "Super-duper-hilarious" joke.
15:17:02 <ehird> Which just means that you'll justify you massacre by pointing out that, in your opinion, it was not so hilarious.
15:18:29 <AnMaster> ehird, no I won't discuss it at all
15:18:59 * ehird upgrades a bunch of stuff, braces for restart.
15:19:56 <ehird> Additionally! It is annoying how there is no real alternative to iTunes.
15:21:16 <ehird> Okay, time to install + restart.
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15:26:10 <AnMaster> of course you wouldn't want that
15:26:23 <AnMaster> so what about rythmbox? Does it exist for OS X?
15:26:38 <oklopol> at least on vista, with my version, you can't start two instances of vlc at the same time
15:26:44 <oklopol> that alone makes it a crappy program
15:26:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, um... works for for me on linux
15:27:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think it is a setting
15:27:45 <oklopol> maybe. unfortunately they chose the wrong default, making the program crappy!
15:28:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, I just checked on a blank user account
15:28:35 <oklopol> you and your superior oses
15:28:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, it would be trivial to switch you know :P
15:29:08 <oklopol> i'm probably going to have to switch to linux to get the default changed
15:30:23 <oklopol> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
15:30:35 -!- ehird has joined.
15:30:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about rythmbox on OS X?
15:31:27 <ehird> To start with, GTK.
15:31:46 <AnMaster> ehird, and you can't live with mixed toolkits?
15:31:46 <ehird> To second with, yeah I already said GTK, forget that.
15:31:52 <ais523> I use rhythmbox to play background music, although it's unnecessarily complicated for what I want
15:32:12 <ehird> AnMaster: So... by "What about Rhythmbox?" your point is "CAN RHYTHMBOX EXECUTE ON OS X COMPUTERS?"
15:32:19 <ais523> (and I never really got Amarok to work, not to mention it does a different job well from the job I want it to do)
15:32:21 <ehird> Well gee Einstein, I'm kinda thinking every fucking Unix player ever can.
15:32:27 <ehird> Wow, that makes them all Mac alternatives to iTunes!
15:32:43 <ehird> You're a genius and a master of human-computer interaction design, how consistency affects it, and oh so many things.
15:32:56 <ais523> actually, I think Rhythmbox does have built-in music-purchasing ability (linking to a couple of websites)
15:33:04 <ais523> but ofc that doesn't make it an iTunes equivalent
15:33:17 <ehird> Meanwhile, no, Rhythmbox is not an alternative to iTunes *on the Mac* because iTunes has, among its mandatory features, being Mac-like. At least it used to be, now not so much, thus the need for an alternative.
15:33:23 <AnMaster> just say that I have no problems with mixing athena widgets, gtk widgets and QT widgets all one screen at once
15:33:39 <Deewiant> ehird: So what's wrong with iTunes?
15:33:50 <ehird> Can you shut the fuck up and stop pretending you know what you talk about? Congratulations, you can run more than one toolkit on the same screen, get the fuck off your godadmn high horse.
15:34:13 <AnMaster> ehird, huh? what have I said to made you so annoyed
15:34:20 <ehird> Deewiant: As of 9 (and in previous versions too, although less so), massive UI inconsistency with the rest of the OS.
15:34:39 * ais523 wonders why there isn't yet some program to convert UI behaviour from one toolkit to another
15:34:41 <ehird> Plus, bloatedness, slowness, and general pushiing-of-iTunes-Store-in-your-faceness.
15:34:48 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought you just said it's Mac-like? :-P
15:34:57 <ehird> "being Mac-like. At least it used to be, now not so much, thus the need for an alternative."
15:35:09 <ehird> I wish people's parsing engines would go beyond single sentences.
15:35:15 <ais523> AnMaster: like qtgtkstyle or whatever it's called
15:35:26 <oklopol> yeah if only everyone wasn't such a fucking retard
15:35:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well those only work semi-okish at best
15:35:28 <ais523> but converting interface conventions too
15:35:46 <ais523> you'd need strong AI to make it perfect, but you could probably do reasonably well just using heuristics
15:35:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Point was that you say it's a mandatory feature and yet you still evidently use it
15:36:00 <ehird> QGtkStyle changes widgets, that's it.
15:36:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Thus why I want an alternative? Gaasp.
15:36:13 <AnMaster> ais523, like rearanging what menu you find "settings/preferences" in?
15:36:24 <ehird> i.e., I just upgraded to iTunes 9 and am officially Sick Of This Shit.
15:36:41 <ehird> Quick Google later, alternative OS X players scene is identical to in 2005.
15:36:42 <Deewiant> I just think it's weird to call something a "mandatory feature" and use something that does not provide it
15:36:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, and changing the order of dialog box options between GTK and Qt (which can be done algorithmically, I think by swapping the two rightmost)
15:36:51 <Deewiant> But if you just upgraded, that makes sense.
15:36:53 <ehird> I'd rather not use it is the whole point.
15:36:57 <AnMaster> ehird, suggestions 1) find one 2) write your own 3) at least stop complaining
15:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: 1) Impossible; doesn't exist. 2) Don't have the massive devotion of time. 3) Yeah, and why isn't Ebert making a movie better than Transformers 2 instead of whining all the time?
15:37:59 <ais523> complaining can be useful
15:38:02 <ehird> You'd think that perhaps proficiency in creation of a type of object is not required to criticise instances of that type or something!
15:38:03 <ais523> it lets developers know what users want
15:38:19 <ehird> ais523: Somehow I doubt Applel would listen to anything I say :P
15:38:56 <ehird> Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell let's just end this conversation on that note AND ANYWAY
15:39:00 <ehird> So what is the haps today my folks
15:39:17 <oklopol> i should go, but i'm not going
15:39:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I haven't seen the movie you mentioned.
15:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, but then this is the wrong place. Afaik there is no one working at apple in here...
15:39:50 <ehird> It has recently (a few seconds ago) come to my attention that there are situations for which one "whoosh" is simply not enough, no matter how many {o}s are added.
15:40:08 <ehird> Lazyweb: Bludgeoning whoosh. do it now.
15:40:19 <ais523> ehird: it's not quite a whoosh; it's something related but marginally differnet
15:40:32 <ais523> because it's not humour involved, but sarcasm
15:41:00 <ehird> Well, point 1 was not knowing who Ebert was, point 2 was latching onto Transformers 2 as an incredibly important part of my sarcasm-based argument
15:41:21 <ehird> Point 3 was then mentioning him haven't seeing Transformers 2 as if that's, you know, something other than the only course of action that leaves you sane at the end
15:41:26 <AnMaster> ehird, did I say it was important
15:41:40 <ehird> Hey, you forgot to capitalise those two lines, and you forgot the full stops at the end.
15:41:44 <ehird> What do you mean that's not important.
15:41:51 <ehird> Did I say it was important?
15:41:59 <ais523> IRC has a different grammar to ordinary speech
15:42:25 <ehird> ais523: Congrats, you just did the same thing as AnMaster.
15:42:30 <ehird> I think I have a headache.
15:42:30 <ais523> strangely, on IRC I find that I use the following algorithm to determine grammar: calculate a correct English sentence; lowercase the first letter unless it's part of a proper noun; remove the final full stop
15:42:46 <ais523> also, I tend to use sentence fragments more than I would in formal speech
15:42:55 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds similar to what I do then.
15:43:11 <ais523> oh, I don't remove the final full stop if there isn't one
15:43:22 <ais523> and sometimes replace final ? with /, although that's just a really common typo for me
15:43:32 <AnMaster> ais523, due to keyboard layout?
15:43:40 <oklopol> ais523: what if you have two sentences in one line? Do you do like this?
15:43:44 <ais523> AnMaster: ? and / are on the same key
15:43:50 <ehird> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////////////////////////\//////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////\\\\\\\/////////////\\\\\//////\\\//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\///////\\\\\\///////////\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\////////
15:43:51 <ehird> \\\\/////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\//////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\/////////////\////////////////////////\////////////////////////\\\\\\////////////
15:43:55 <ais523> oklopol: this line has two sentences. I write it like thsi
15:44:00 <oklopol> \\\\\\\\\\\//////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
15:44:04 <oklopol> ais523: I was a bad choice
15:44:12 <ehird> haha i was just thinking that
15:44:14 <ais523> but it would be a capital letter there
15:44:33 <ais523> it seems my IRC modifications only affect the start and end of a line...
15:45:00 <oklopol> also now i *really* have to leave
15:45:04 <ais523> I noticed it was weird the first time I caught myself doing it
15:45:13 <AnMaster> ooh lets talk about something interesting if oklopol is leaving
15:46:03 <ais523> AnMaster: in this channel/
15:46:09 <ehird> Who is ooh, and why are they allowing us to do something grammatically incorrect?
15:46:26 <ehird> In fact it might not even be us doing the thing; it is not specified.
15:46:27 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I mentioned that before
15:46:31 <ais523> it's a very common typo for me
15:46:36 <ais523> missing the shift when I type / to get a ?
15:46:48 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I couldn't resist the slightly complex sed expression
15:46:48 <ais523> normally I backspace to the / and correct it
15:46:58 <ais523> but on IRC, I've already typed the newline before I notice the error
15:47:02 <oklopol> AnMaster: you wouldn't dare
15:47:19 <ehird> Don't worrry, AnMaster is incapable of talking about anything interesting. :P
15:47:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, I'm to kind to actually do it.
15:47:41 <oklopol> well i was going to continue with 'and by dare i of course mean "be able to"', but thought it was more mean than it was funny
15:47:47 <ehird> ais523: You correct that but not "ooh lets"?
15:48:03 <oklopol> ehird: you made a worse error a few minutes ago
15:48:11 <ehird> oklopol: yes, but I don't care
15:48:11 <ais523> I suppose, missing punctuation annoys me less than missing letters
15:48:22 <oklopol> "ehird: Point 3 was then mentioning him haven't seeing Transformers 2..."
15:48:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: You correct that but not "ooh lets"? <-- what is wrong with that
15:48:29 <ais523> AnMaster: should be "let's"
15:48:36 <oklopol> should it be "not having", or am i misparsing
15:48:37 <ehird> oklopol: should have been "having not seen"
15:49:02 <ehird> You'd think you'd have learned the basic principles of the English langauge by now...
15:49:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a bit hard to figure out what exactly the ' swallows
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15:49:27 <AnMaster> is there any consistent rule for it?
15:49:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: "let's" = "let us"
15:49:45 <ehird> augur omits all punctuation.
15:49:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "lets" is clearly derived from let.
15:49:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, sure, but "it's" = "it us"? then?
15:49:59 <ehird> And it clearly isn't a plural lets.
15:50:04 <oklopol> "lets" = 3rd person let, that never has a "'".
15:50:11 <ehird> Nor is it in a place where "lets" as in enables or allows would fit.
15:50:14 <ehird> Therefore, lets is not correct.
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15:50:20 <ehird> What is a verbose alternative? Let us.
15:50:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: "lets" is clearly derived from let. <-- agreed. But "it's" and "let's" isn't consistent at all.
15:50:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: "its" & "it's" is an exception to the rule, as are most pronouns
15:50:23 <ehird> So clearly, the result is let's.
15:50:38 <ehird> isn't is singular.
15:50:42 <ehird> This is simple stuff.
15:50:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, ' doesn't stand for a constant string.
15:50:50 <ehird> It stands for [elided obvious shit].
15:51:07 <AnMaster> ehird, the obviousness can be discussed.
15:51:22 <ehird> Only if you have no grasp of English.
15:51:29 <ais523> "it's" isn't an exception, it means "it is"; "its" is an exception, though
15:51:29 <oklopol> it is always obvious, because there's just a small set of things you use it for.
15:51:37 <ehird> Should I try and speak Swedish and complain about all the inconsistencies?
15:51:46 <oklopol> ais523: yes, i meant "its" is the exception
15:51:50 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, some of them annoy me too
15:51:56 <ehird> Presumably you'd retort that it's easy once you know them, which applies to English too. This stuff isn't hard.
15:52:48 <ehird> FAIL! That guy can't type instantly! Therefore, I will use "fail" as an interjection, thus placing my estimated maturity roughly at the level of a 7-year-old.
15:52:52 <ehird> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\]]
15:53:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oops, tried to talk more on your own level, hoping the message would get through better then
15:54:02 <ais523> wow, I was just k-lined on slashnet
15:54:02 <ehird> You know, your excuses are almost believable enough to be distinguishable from 0 in a floating-point number.
15:54:07 <AnMaster> you can see if someone sent a message several seconds before. At least you seem to tell *me* that.. So claiming now that you can't is hypocrisy.
15:54:10 <ehird> ais523: presumably auutomatically
15:54:10 <ais523> my connection kept dropping
15:54:16 <ais523> and some automatic system thought I was trying to DOS it
15:54:33 <ais523> it let me back on after a minute, though
15:54:38 <ehird> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]}}}}}}"""""""""
15:54:55 <ehird> no, I think I just broke a key
15:54:58 <AnMaster> ais523, no, he is unusually nasty
15:55:04 <ehird> I swear I didn't do anything!
15:55:15 <ehird> this is what happens when you buy cheap keyboards
15:55:17 <AnMaster> ais523, he has been quite a bit nicer over the last week or two
15:55:21 <ehird> now when will http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mcnpek be back in stock...
15:55:36 <AnMaster> so the "not running OS X" theory seems to hold up well
15:55:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Turns out that I'm a dick or not based on how much people (ok, I'll be honest, just one) are idiots.
15:55:55 <ehird> Oh wow, you still really believe that me using OS X somehow makes me more of a jerk.
15:55:55 <ais523> actually, I went and looked through keyboards available today, and decided that none of them really fit my requirements, which are quite different from ehird's
15:56:13 <AnMaster> ehird, causal observation points in that direction.
15:56:25 <ais523> (they are: works, doesn't collapse [OK, ehird probably has those two too], are white rather than black or are stupidly coloured, and don't have lots of extra random buttons for no reason)
15:56:36 <ehird> Correlation is not causation, you small-minded dimwit! Especially not with such a tiny sample size...
15:56:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> now when will http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mcnpek be back in stock... <-- das keyboard ripoff?
15:56:54 <ehird> I *hate* people who equate post hoc with propter hoc.
15:57:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Das Keyboard was not the first and will not be the last. That model is identical to the non-Otaku version but comes with the blank key caps.
15:57:25 <ehird> Specifically: http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mceb
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15:57:41 <ehird> Differences from the Das Keyboard: better keyswitches, no numberpad, smaller, ...
15:57:55 <ehird> Yay, I fixed the key. Popped right back on.
15:57:55 <AnMaster> ehird, better key switches? hm?
15:58:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Mechanical key switches. Clicky.
15:58:15 <ehird> Not membrane shit.
15:58:18 <AnMaster> "no numpad" and "smaller" seems to be disadvantages
15:58:28 <AnMaster> ehird, hm thought das keyboard was clicky?
15:58:34 <ais523> AnMaster: your hands are probably about twice as big as ehird's
15:58:40 <ehird> Yes, these are BETTER.
15:58:41 <ais523> from what I've heard in this channel
15:58:46 <ais523> so ehird would want a small keyboard, you'd want a big one
15:58:52 <ehird> AnMaster: The numpad is useless, takes up desk space and inhibits mouse/keyboard switching.
15:58:56 <ehird> AND the key sizes do not change.
15:58:59 <ehird> Smaller = less useless border around the keys.
15:59:08 <ehird> Which is unquestionably a good thing.
15:59:29 <ehird> Technically the switches aren't better, just the plate they're mouhnted to.
16:08:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: The numpad is useless, takes up desk space and inhibits mouse/keyboard switching. <-- no it isn't. Some old style 2D games for example
16:09:01 <AnMaster> as for switching? not very common operation unless you are image editing
16:09:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Smaller = less useless border around the keys. <-- good idea. Mine has about 5 mm on the left and right side, acceptable to me
16:10:11 <AnMaster> ais523, as for you finding a keyboard. What sort of keyboard collapses?
16:10:19 <AnMaster> I mean, sounds like it would go on warranty
16:10:32 <AnMaster> ais523, and is a white keyboard really that hard to find?
16:10:33 <ais523> the B and Y keys didn't work on my very first computer
16:10:41 <ais523> although it was a BBC Model B that was obsolete when I got it
16:10:46 <ais523> and yes, white keyboards are really that hard to find
16:11:11 <ais523> in fact, they already knew it was broken
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16:11:16 <ais523> it cost £20 as a result
16:11:30 <ehird_> Oh, I missed a lot of text.
16:11:34 <ais523> but I just rebound a couple of the function keys to act as B and Y
16:11:37 <ehird_> 08:08:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: The numpad is useless, takes up desk space and inhibits mouse/keyboard switching. <-- no it isn't. Some old style 2D games for example
16:11:38 <ehird_> 08:09:01 <AnMaster> as for switching? not very common operation unless you are image editing
16:11:42 <ehird_> (1) Irrelevant, remap keys
16:11:58 <AnMaster> ehird_, 1 is relevant since most other keys are already in use
16:11:59 <ehird_> (2) No, mouse/keyboard switching is incredibly common, I don't care about your X11/KDE bubble
16:12:04 <AnMaster> thus you want those extra keys
16:12:11 <AnMaster> since otherwise you couldn't fit it inside
16:12:29 <ehird_> ais523: what's wrong with black, anyway?
16:12:33 <AnMaster> ehird_, ask ais if he switches a lot
16:12:59 <ehird_> AnMaster: Funnily enough, I don't give a fuck about what ais does, except I never state it in such strong terms because he never argues against my product decisions withh his usage anecdotes.
16:13:08 <ehird_> *with, goddamn chattering.
16:13:18 <ehird_> I imagine he uses the mouse more than you.
16:13:41 <ehird_> ais523: I don't care, feel free to stay out of this retarded pettiness.
16:13:59 <AnMaster> actually I wonder if I can switch desktops in synergy with a keycombo... would be useful
16:14:12 <AnMaster> because that has increased the switching for me recently
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16:17:23 <ais523_> ehird_: I don't care that you don't care what I do
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16:17:27 <ais523_> because you have no reason to, relaly
16:17:29 <ehird_> I don't care that you don't etc.
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16:17:42 <ais523> I don't insist that the way I do things are the best for you
16:17:43 <ehird_> ais523: I meant that AnMaster was questioning you, and you could feel free not ot bother because I don't care
16:17:47 <ais523> in fact, I suspect they usually aren't
16:18:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> I don't insist that the way I do things are the best for you <-- nor do I.
16:18:20 <ehird_> <AnMaster> But ehird does with his FASCIST GNOME
16:18:39 <ais523> this really isn't the time for a Gnome/KDE flamewar
16:18:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, I guess that is supposed to be some sort of joke
16:19:12 <ehird_> ais523: Can we have something fun, like a VMS vs IRIX war?
16:19:30 <ais523> oh well, the Earth hasn't been destroyed in retaliation yet
16:19:30 <ehird_> "My excrement is *so* *much* *better* than your excrement."
16:19:30 <ais523> it seems we're having an Earth vs. Moon war
16:19:51 <ais523> we could do darcs vs. git, I'm good at that one, but it may be a bit too mainstream
16:19:57 <ehird_> I thought that was Mars. You know, the 2x2 tic-tac-toe war?
16:20:08 <ais523> 2x2 tic-tac-toe is rather ridiculous...
16:20:11 <ehird_> (You know you've made it when you can make reference to your old lo-fi webcomics.)
16:20:24 <ais523> heh, reminds me of rock-scissors
16:20:27 <ehird_> ais523: Ah! But! If your opponent is set to win, just apply some HP Win Sauce!
16:20:30 <ais523> which is like rock-paper-scissors, but without the paper
16:20:34 <ehird_> It cleans that game right up!
16:20:38 <coppro> ais523: Mercurial is upset at you now
16:20:41 <ehird_> It's how we valiantly defeated the Martians.
16:20:48 <ehird_> coppro: Nobody cares about Mercurial, though.
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16:20:51 <ehird> It's exceedingly mediocre!
16:20:55 <ehird> Whoa, auto-ghosting.
16:21:06 <ais523> coppro: most people who try to persuade me to switch from darcs are git fans
16:21:22 <ehird> ais523: I've actually changed heart in that war recently, I think
16:21:31 <ais523> which side are you on now?
16:21:35 <ehird> I'm not sure I'm going to use darcs for stuff, for practical reasons, but the UI is differenti n a legitimate way
16:21:38 <ais523> (I can't actually remember which side you were on before)
16:21:51 <ehird> as in, I think the paradigm is equally legitimate, if not more legitimate, than git's
16:21:54 <ais523> and I'm the first to admit that darcs isn't production-ready yet, and possibly never will be
16:21:57 <ehird> although perhaps not the implementation of it
16:22:12 <ehird> the "git" stereotype is hilariously 2005 nowadays.
16:22:17 <ehird> It's so inscrutable! but it's not.
16:22:24 <ais523> also, git rebase --interactive is amazing, and fixes many of the issues I have with git
16:22:44 <ais523> as in, it's a command that removes most of the "why can't I do this"ness in git, by letting me do it
16:22:51 <ais523> even if it is a bit more long-winded than it ought to be
16:23:37 <ehird> git's internal architecture is nice, and its command-set lets you Get Things Done, plus its implementation is less hilariously crippled than darcs. but darcs' interface *platonic ideal paradigm* is superior, if not its application of it.
16:23:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I find that rebaseing doesn't really fit into the VCS idea. Why? Because it changes the supposedly non-changeable history...
16:23:52 <ehird> I'm not convinced patch theory is worth all the bother
16:24:09 <ais523> AnMaster: agreed; although, to a darcs fan, it changes unimportant details that shouldn't even exist
16:24:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I doubt you foudn anything because found implieis a practical approach, whereas I suspect you read about what rebase does and decided that without using it.
16:24:30 <ehird> *found, *implies, *fuck this fucking keyboard
16:25:29 <AnMaster> of course I tried it. was maybe 5 or 6 months ago
16:25:49 <ehird> Yes, but finding it doesn't fit into the usual VCS paradigm implies some sort of practical usage for a while to make such a deduction.
16:25:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what shouldn't exist? rebasing? yes agreed
16:25:56 <ehird> He didn't say that.
16:26:02 <ehird> He didn't even imply anything close to that, although indirectly he did.
16:27:20 <Warrigal> 'If a first-class player is a Shoe and there is no Avatar shaped like em, an Avatar shaped like em and 1,500 snelfus are awarded to em.'
16:27:26 <Warrigal> 'For any Shoe, "eir Avatar" refers to an Avatar owned by em, not an Avatar shaped like em.'
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16:32:04 <ehird> Remarks On Flash in OS X After Using Ubuntu: Hey, it uses a bunch of CPU, but at least the audio is synchronized with the video.
16:33:33 <ais523_> ehird: it's even more fun if you put it to full screen (on Ubuntu, that is)
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16:33:44 <ehird> You have Intel graphics, I assume.
16:33:54 <ehird> I am truley sorry for your lots; try zooming in with shitpiz. I mean Compiz.
16:34:06 <ehird> It works better, presumably.
16:34:07 <ais523> compiz doesn't even work with GLUT
16:34:11 <ais523> what's the chance it works with Flash?
16:34:11 <ehird> Well, apparently, not presumably.
16:34:17 <ehird> Um, it works fine.
16:34:18 <ehird> I can attest to that.
16:34:26 <ehird> Just super-scrollwheel into the Flash.
16:34:43 <ais523> oh, I meant the compiz/GLUT thing
16:34:43 <ehird> Anyway, I have an aaaaaaaaaaaancient ATI card, from the time the dinosaurs ruled... ...2006.
16:34:53 <ehird> So ATI themselves will have nothing to do with my wretched kind!
16:34:58 <ehird> fglrx, the only decent driver, gone.
16:35:05 <ehird> radeonhd? No workage for you!
16:35:16 <ehird> radeon? Man, tearing windows while resizing is so... trippy... man...
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16:39:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> Remarks On Flash in OS X After Using Ubuntu: Hey, it uses a bunch of CPU, but at least the audio is synchronized with the video. <-- vlc can play youtube videos just fine for example
16:39:21 * ehird stares at mds in Activity Monitor, apparently indexing the newfound gigantic lack of TeX on my system.
16:40:10 <ehird> AnMaster: That's nice. I would indeed like to do extra work with extra clicks to use a player with an inferior UI to QuickTime (QuickTime X supports FLV, but I don't have Snow Leopard), and still be unable to participate in fun content such as http://tane.us/
16:40:28 <ais523> yay, apparently https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/197820 is fixed in Karmic
16:40:37 <ehird> Hmm, no, wait, I'd prefer to use Adobe's evil proprietary monopolising CPU-hogging player. I wonder how those GNASH guys are getting on OH BOY!
16:41:19 <ehird> ais523: why use Compiz, incidentally?
16:41:40 <ehird> it has inferior window placement to Metacity and is otherwise just candy, mostly useless and productivity-hampering
16:41:56 <ais523> ehird: my CPU is rather slow, Compiz is more responsive
16:42:09 <ais523> also, it's good at noticing when programs lock up
16:42:14 <ehird> ais523: because it's compositing; you can make metacity compositing, too
16:42:27 <ehird> gconf-editor, apps/metacity/general/compositing_manager I believe
16:42:33 <ehird> tick, and as a bonus you get window shadows
16:42:39 <ais523> if I wanted to mess with settings, though, I'd use KdE
16:42:43 <ehird> without all of compiz's bad window placement and extreme bugginess
16:43:04 <ehird> ais523: it seems like flicking one setting to avoid compiz's bag of bad is not against GNOME's philosophy
16:43:11 <ehird> and extremist positions are rarely correct
16:43:30 <ehird> it should probably be a Metacity preference in the future
16:43:36 <ehird> but with Metacity being replaced by Mutter that's unlikely to happen
16:44:49 <oerjan> <Warrigal> Sgeo: I would be extremely content if you were to do that. oerjan: are you saying the order of affixes in Greek-derived words like "philosophy" is language-dependent?
16:45:26 <oerjan> no, i'm saying the original greeks did not seem to keep a fixed order.
16:46:37 <Warrigal> They seemed to use right-branching more often, though. Left-branching words like "philosophy" have always bugged me.
16:46:49 <Warrigal> Especially since it seems to be the prefix philo- with the base sophy.
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16:52:26 <blarumyrran> On http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html , i dont really understand the "The interpreter finds the codel of the current colour block on that edge which is furthest to the CC's direction of the DP's direction of travel. (Visualise this as standing on the program and walking in the direction of the DP; see table at right.)"
16:53:57 <ais523> but I need to figure it out myself first
16:54:21 <ais523> basically, suppose you have a codel with a wide edge
16:54:26 <ais523> say, you have a 10x10 square red codel
16:54:28 <ais523> which you're in at the moment
16:54:31 <ais523> and you're going to the right
16:54:42 <ais523> and, there's a 5x5 blue codel and a 5x5 green codel immediately to its right
16:54:57 <ais523> what that's saying is that the codel chooser chooses which one of those is chosen as the next one
16:55:01 <blarumyrran> And it chooses the uppest one if the cc is left?
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17:14:29 <ehird> Torrents: ~90KiB, 0.7KiB, >400KiB within one second.
17:14:44 * ais523 writes a new page on the esolang wiki
17:14:47 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Suffolk
17:14:52 <ais523> I decided to make a TC language based on Norfuck
17:15:05 <ehird> surely you mean Suffuck
17:15:26 <ais523> although, I may have misspelt the name
17:15:33 <ais523> it's a pronunciation joke
17:16:07 <oerjan> either that, or suffolk is a really, really sucky place
17:16:22 <ehird> I made the norfuck/norfolk connection too
17:16:53 <ais523> oerjan: it isn't that bad
17:16:57 <blarumyrran> I first read Norfuck as Norfolk in the above sentence
17:17:11 <ais523> IIRC, it has the new road markings visibility test road
17:17:15 <ais523> which is great fun to drive down
17:17:25 <ais523> basically, they're looking for an alternative to cat's eyes
17:17:29 <ais523> for various sorts of road markings
17:17:40 <ais523> so they have a few miles of road which has loads of experimental road markings on
17:17:44 <ais523> some of which are really quite pretty
17:18:33 <ehird> is distracting you from the road really so clever :P
17:18:53 <ais523> those ones possibly won't be used
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17:21:35 <ehird> Hey, within a few hundred KiBs of maxing out my connection.
17:21:47 <ehird> I wish this wasn't surprising for torrents.
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17:24:02 <oerjan> in the meantime, ais523 is mining out his connection
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17:35:48 <ehird> ais523: btw, you were talking about firefox consistency with new tab modifiers?
17:36:30 <ehird> ais523: Safari does pretty well with that — for instance, command-enter submits this form into a new tab
17:36:45 <ehird> seemingly useless, but it leaves your original text intact, in case you're spamming or something I guess
17:37:40 <ehird> No; since Safari 4, (and I disagree with this change) the refresh "button" is at the end of the URL field, and command-click on a text field = not a button, so = drag = rearrange toolbar
17:37:47 <ehird> Command-back/forwards buttons work, though!
17:37:56 <ehird> I can think of a few uses for that.
17:38:17 <ehird> And, well, I can't exactly press ⌘⌘R.
17:38:22 <ais523> ehird: I do control-back quite a lot in Firefox
17:38:40 <ehird> ais523: does it work when clicking the buttons? (control-click back)
17:38:45 <Deewiant> Control-backspace doesn't work though
17:39:18 <ais523> (I use control-click rather than middle-click because middle-clicking seems rather shaky with this mouse)
17:40:10 <ehird> Middle clicking buttons does fuck all in OS X, and Safari doesn't break very many UI conventions.
17:40:27 <ehird> I wonder what modifier-stop should do.
17:40:36 <ehird> Show the pre-reload page in a new tab, and keep reloading?
17:40:45 <ehird> How deliciously useless!
17:41:01 <ais523> actually, that could be potentially useful
17:41:14 <ais523> one of the websites here uses some sort of meta refresh if you give an incorrect password
17:41:25 <ais523> rather than just not logging you in, it instead logs you out on a timer
17:41:29 <ais523> for no reason I can think of
17:41:48 <ais523> I think none of the buttons on the resulting page are functional, so it isn't actually a security risk
17:42:05 <ehird> Cmd-Home works in Safari
17:42:21 <ehird> Nor I, I made one just to se
17:42:27 <ehird> Home pages are rather archaic
17:43:18 * ehird tries something that can't possibly work
17:43:40 <ehird> Awesome! It opened a new tab in a new tab.
17:43:49 <Deewiant> I don't have a new tab button either
17:43:57 <ais523> ehird: if only that created nested tabs
17:44:07 <ehird> Deewiant: I do, at the end of my tab bar.
17:44:11 <ehird> It's very discrete.
17:44:24 <ais523> IE7 and Konqueror have new tab buttons; Firefox and Epiphany don't
17:44:27 <ehird> Not really much of a button, I guess; but then the whole tab bar is non-standard.
17:44:47 <ehird> Deewiant: You can't do that in Safari because seriously, it's a tiny little pixeled cross.
17:45:27 <ehird> (History and Bookmarks display as special pages (still using the native UI) in Safari)
17:45:38 <Deewiant> I don't have to check to know that works
17:45:45 <ehird> Predictably, so does bookmarks
17:45:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Check how what works?
17:46:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Not how. "that" = history in new tab.
17:46:23 -!- ais523_ has joined.
17:46:34 <ehird> History normally pops up as a window in Firefox, which just confuses that.
17:46:45 <ehird> Because it's not really the "done thing"
17:47:04 <ehird> Well, in my impression.
17:47:08 * ehird attempts the world's silliest operation... Print in a new tab!
17:47:23 <ehird> It helpfully lets me rearrange the print button.
17:47:43 <Deewiant> My Firefox is so customized I don't know the defaults
17:48:05 <ehird> Cmd-New tab toolbar button = Rearrange yay
17:48:43 <ehird> ais523_: have you ever wanted to zoom text... in a new tab
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17:54:56 <ehird> um is it just dsfjkgdfg me or is os x not underlining spelling mistakes any more
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18:01:06 <blarumyrran> An os that by itself underlines spelling mistakes everywhere?
18:02:54 <ehird> Um, in regular user-input fields, yes.
18:03:05 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:03:10 <ehird> You know, as opposed to every web browser, messaging client, email program, oh, you know... everything... using its own.
18:03:22 <ehird> Well, every unless it's been disabled, obviously.
18:04:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
18:04:45 -!- ehird has quit.
18:04:58 -!- ehird has joined.
18:05:08 -!- ais523_ has joined.
18:06:35 <ais523_> tell that to the routers around here
18:06:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:06:41 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
18:13:48 <pikhq> ... A Nobel Peace Prize for Obama?
18:14:21 <pikhq> What has he done, other than be the first black President of the United States, that's even all that historically relevant?
18:14:25 <ais523> it seems that the news reporter on CBS thought it was a practical joke when it came up on the autocue
18:16:51 <ehird> ais523: so, I think I've found a more interesting holy war for this channel to participate in when we want one
18:17:48 <ehird> ais523: Nethack vs Angband
18:18:03 <ehird> unfortunately, it's likely to be massively crooked to Nethack
18:18:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:18:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:18:22 <ais523> aw, I disconnected just before you could tell me what it was
18:18:26 <ehird> [18:16] ehird: ais523: so, I think I've found a more interesting holy war for this channel to participate in when we want one
18:18:26 <Deewiant> Why angband in particular as the opponent
18:18:26 <ehird> [18:16] ehird: also more obscure
18:18:26 <ehird> [18:17] ehird: ais523: Nethack vs Angband
18:18:27 <ehird> [18:18] ehird: unfortunately, it's likely to be massively crooked to Nethack
18:18:35 <Deewiant> Why angband in particular as the opponent
18:18:39 <ais523> NetHack vs Crawl could be an interesting one
18:18:44 <ais523> I've been in channels with that one happening a lot
18:18:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Because I've seen at least one Angband player diss' (jokingly) Nethack, plus they're quite similar and still relatively actively developed
18:18:52 <ais523> except, I've been arguing on the side of they're two different things
18:18:56 <ais523> and so not in competition
18:19:06 <ehird> I think Angband is the same sort of thing as Nethack
18:19:13 <ais523> I had a NetHack vs. Angband discussion in RL a while ago
18:19:23 <ehird> Nononono, GET A FLAMETHROWER.
18:19:25 <ais523> the other person had played Angband but not NetHack
18:19:31 <ais523> and thought that NetHack was probably superior
18:19:35 <ais523> and based on what he said, I agreed
18:19:42 <ais523> you need two sides for a flamewar
18:19:50 <ais523> also, why are you calling NetHack actively developed?
18:19:57 <ehird> It is, it's just never released
18:20:17 <ehird> Anyway, it's not like the slow releases are anything new; it's ticking exactly on release schedule
18:20:25 <ehird> ("Release like 7 years after the previous one")
18:20:27 <ais523> this one's even slower than the others
18:20:28 <blarumyrran> I played some roguelike once, one of those, i dont remember which one
18:20:35 <ehird> "You hasst not seen it, Angband? But perhapss you have seen one like it, the filthy, filthy NetHack, yess, full of such stupids and jokeses, and no Smeagol! We hates it for ever! But we loves Angband, yess, Angband has Smeagol and the fat hobbitses and yes, it has my preciouss! We loves it, Angband!"
18:20:36 <ehird> — http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/archives/2007/04/13/42/
18:20:39 <ehird> I think it's pretty hard to rebut that
18:20:57 <ehird> (Also featured: Most obnoxious blog theme ever)
18:21:10 <ehird> (I much preferred his old design. Bring a text browser or disable CSS feature.)
18:21:17 <blarumyrran> It has a ridiculous amount of shortcut keys necessary to play. I was a necromancer yet i only figured out how to hit things with a stick. I got eaten by some canines. I deleted the game & never looked at a rougelike again.
18:21:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:21:59 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:22:30 <ehird> what did you last see
18:22:45 <ais523> [18:20] <blarumyrran> I played some roguelike once, one of those, i dont remember which one
18:22:46 <ais523> [18:20] <ais523> it's already been 7 years
18:23:07 <ehird> [18:20] ehird: "You hasst not seen it, Angband? But perhapss you have seen one like it, the filthy, filthy NetHack, yess, full of such stupids and jokeses, and no Smeagol! We hates it for ever! But we loves Angband, yess, Angband has Smeagol and the fat hobbitses and yes, it has my preciouss! We loves it, Angband!"
18:23:08 <ehird> [18:20] ehird: — http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/archives/2007/04/13/42/
18:23:08 <ehird> [18:20] ehird: I think it's pretty hard to rebut that
18:23:08 <ehird> [18:20] ehird: (Also featured: Most obnoxious blog theme ever)
18:23:10 <ehird> [18:21] ehird: (I much preferred his old design. Bring a text browser or disable CSS feature.)
18:23:12 <ehird> [18:21] blarumyrran: It has a ridiculous amount of shortcut keys necessary to play. I was a necromancer yet i only figured out how to hit things with a stick. I got eaten by some canines. I deleted the game & never looked at a rougelike again.
18:23:19 <ehird> Woop, according to Flux the sun just set
18:23:31 <ehird> Everything looks red now, as it will for some minutes
18:23:41 <ehird> Well, orangey red. PapayaWhip. It looks PapayaWhip.
18:23:52 <ehird> Sun appears to be out to my eyes.
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18:24:28 <ais523_> [18:22] <ehird> what did you last see
18:24:30 <ais523_> [18:22] [CTCP] Received Version request from freenode-connect.
18:24:32 <ais523_> [18:22] <ais523> [18:20] <blarumyrran> I played some roguelike once, one of those, i dont remember which one
18:24:36 <ais523_> [18:22] <ais523> [18:20] <ais523> it's already been 7 years
18:24:38 <ais523_> [18:22] <ais523> (I wasn't responding to blarumyrran there, btw)
18:24:42 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
18:24:56 <blarumyrran> It wouldve been a strange answer if you were
18:24:57 <ehird> [18:22] blarumyrran: Didnt see that
18:24:57 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:20] ehird: "You hasst not seen it, Angband? But perhapss you have seen one like it, the filthy, filthy NetHack, yess, full of such stupids and jokeses, and no Smeagol! We hates it for ever! But we loves Angband, yess, Angband has Smeagol and the fat hobbitses and yes, it has my preciouss! We loves it, Angband!"
18:24:57 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:20] ehird: — http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/archives/2007/04/13/42/
18:24:58 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:20] ehird: I think it's pretty hard to rebut that
18:24:59 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:20] ehird: :P
18:24:59 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:20] ehird: (Also featured: Most obnoxious blog theme ever)
18:25:01 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:21] ehird: (I much preferred his old design. Bring a text browser or disable CSS feature.)
18:25:04 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: [18:21] blarumyrran: It has a ridiculous amount of shortcut keys necessary to play. I was a necromancer yet i only figured out how to hit things with a stick. I got eaten by some canines. I deleted the game & never looked at a rougelike again.
18:25:08 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: Woop, according to Flux the sun just set
18:25:10 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: Everything looks red now, as it will for some minutes
18:25:12 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: Well, orangey red. PapayaWhip. It looks PapayaWhip.
18:25:14 <ehird> [18:23] ehird: Sun appears to be out to my eyes.
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18:25:37 <ais523> AngBand takes itself too seriously
18:25:47 <ehird> ais523: did you see all those lines?
18:25:49 <ais523> sorry, too used to capitalising NetHack
18:26:23 <ehird> ais523: Angband has had a bot player for a long time
18:26:34 <ehird> and has been made into an OS X screensaver
18:26:38 <ehird> that's either a pro or a con, depending
18:26:48 <ehird> pro in that it has innovative roguelike technology
18:26:56 <ehird> con in that it must not be _that_ hard to code one
18:27:03 <ehird> latter is invalid if it turns out someone just decided to first
18:28:07 -!- ais523_ has joined.
18:28:15 <ais523_> [18:25] <ehird> ais523: did you see all those lines?
18:28:17 <ais523_> [18:25] <ais523> sorry, too used to capitalising NetHack
18:28:19 <ais523_> [18:25] <ais523> and yes I did
18:28:22 <ehird> just tell me the last line
18:28:23 <ais523_> [18:26] <ais523> blarumyrran: sounds like you were playing Slash'EM
18:28:39 <ais523_> I paste in a bunch so it comes out before my connection drops
18:28:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:28:45 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
18:28:57 <ais523> just like I developed the habit of scping my email from Normish
18:29:17 <ehird> [18:26] ehird: ais523: Angband has had a bot player for a long time
18:29:18 <ehird> [18:26] ehird: and has been made into an OS X screensaver
18:29:18 <ehird> [18:26] ehird: that's either a pro or a con, depending
18:29:18 <ehird> [18:26] ehird: pro in that it has innovative roguelike technology
18:29:18 <ehird> [18:26] ehird: con in that it must not be _that_ hard to code one
18:29:19 <ehird> [18:27] ehird: latter is invalid if it turns out someone just decided to first
18:29:47 <ais523> Angband is very easy to grind in, apparently
18:30:02 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:30:22 <ehird> [[Sure, the graphics might be lacking and the sound is non-existant, but the gameplay is great and non-repetitive. Well, not too repetitive at any rate. Actually some of the time you feel like you’re going through the motions, but that’s not *all* of the time.]]
18:30:23 <ehird> — comment on http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/archives/2007/04/13/42/
18:34:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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18:34:16 <ehird> ais523: cut that shit out
18:34:20 <ehird> arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh
18:39:41 -!- fizzie has changed nick to fizziew.
18:39:45 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:44:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:44:12 * ehird attempts, to no avail, to find a thingy
18:59:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:02:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:05:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Stop posting inaccurate info to reddit
19:05:54 * ehird attempts to think of when he last did that
19:05:58 <ehird> Nope, sorry. I'm flawless.
19:06:08 <ehird> Flawless like a diamond. A flawless diamond.
19:06:28 <AnMaster> yay finally a nice pastebin (except no syntax highlighting): http://sprunge.us/
19:06:57 <ehird> I made a reddit comment that recently?
19:07:43 <Deewiant> Anyway, the reason I wanted you to stop was because you forced me to respond, so you should find it easily if you care.
19:07:45 <ehird> So I did. "Stop posting inaccurate info" is a rather dickish way of saying "you did indeed correct his mistaking of one puzzle for another, but you do NOT FOLLOW INTIMATE SUDOKU KNOWLEDGE! HA!"
19:08:26 <Deewiant> You're almost always a dick here so I don't mind being dickish to you.
19:08:39 <ehird> Then I won't bother correcting the post.
19:09:19 <ehird> Then I don't know why you pointed it out to me.
19:09:53 <Deewiant> Because I figured I'd chat a bit, I guess
19:10:03 <ehird> Some definition of chat
19:15:58 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:16:57 <FireFly> " (except no syntax highlighting)"
19:17:05 <FireFly> "add ?<lang> to resulting url for line numbers and syntax highlighting"
19:17:08 <Sgeo> ehird, in what way is Joel wrong/an idiot?
19:17:23 <ehird> talk about some latency
19:18:31 <ehird> but here, have some funtimes, because i'm a lazy asswipe and can't be arsed to do anything else: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/18/translation-from-ms-speak-to-english-of-selected-portions-of-joel-spolskys-martin-headsets
19:19:03 <ehird> also, he associates with jeff atwood through running stack overflow (a hilariously useless site, coded incompetently) with him
19:19:11 <ehird> and if you ask why jeff atwood is an idiot, there is no hope for you
19:20:00 <AnMaster> FireFly, weird, but doesn't actually add colours...
19:20:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:25 <ehird> I'm sure you can handle not skimming it
19:22:59 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:23:27 -!- ehird has quit.
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19:27:20 <ehird> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device
19:27:20 <ehird> bash: no job control in this shell
19:27:22 <ehird> Wonder what that means.
19:28:17 <Sgeo> Talking piano! http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/09/mechanical-piano-hacked-to-talk-says-nothing-youd-be-intereste/
19:29:17 <ehird> "We're just wondering how Black Moth Super Rainbow will ever fit this thing onto their tour van."
19:29:17 <ehird> i feel so hipster for knowing who that is :(
19:31:30 <AnMaster> is it something you will go woosh about me not knowing=
19:31:46 <ehird> or do you mean "hipsterr"
19:32:24 <AnMaster> as for hipster, of course I know what that is
19:35:42 <fizziew> Caught signal 11. Server aborting
19:35:48 <fizziew> It would be nice if something ever worked.
19:36:15 <AnMaster> fizziew, what was it that crashed there?
19:36:25 <ehird> fizziew: MAYBE YOU COULD DEBUG MY BASH PROBLEM
19:36:43 <fizziew> AnMaster: X, of course; haven't you seen a crash message like that?
19:37:00 <fizziew> Goes and dies in "xf86EnterServerState+0x5b8".
19:37:08 <AnMaster> fizziew, nah, when X crashed it tended to require sysrq for recovery
19:37:27 <AnMaster> might be due to nvidia drivers
19:38:10 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Talking piano! http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/09/mechanical-piano-hacked-to-talk-says-nothing-youd-be-intereste/ <-- the video link on the linked page is broken?
19:38:27 <Sgeo> AnMaster, works here
19:38:37 <AnMaster> Sgeo, "http://wstreaming.zdf.de/3sat/veryhigh/091002_klavier_kuz.asx"?
19:38:44 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4
19:38:54 <AnMaster> oh I followed the link on the bottom there
19:39:01 <AnMaster> due to now seeing any other video due to no js
19:39:19 <ehird> I wonder if the text on http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-CHEATSHEET&Category_Code=QW is legible IRL.
19:39:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:40:16 <Deewiant> That pic is legible enough so the bigger one on the shirt definitely is unless their printing quality sucks
19:41:27 <ehird> The small text in that image is so not legible.
19:41:59 <Deewiant> I can read it all without requiring a zoom-in
19:42:09 <ehird> Buy a higher ppi display, sit back.
19:42:10 <Deewiant> The smallest at the bottom left is tricky but not impossible to read
19:42:44 <Deewiant> Regardless, it'll be bigger on the shirt
19:43:30 <ehird> Kind of irrelevant, since they don't make XXXXXXXXXXXXS shirts, so none of them would fit anyway. :P
19:45:59 <fizzie> Yes, when it crashes; but when it doesn't even start, in my case you can usually find a segfault like that in the Xorg.log.
19:46:42 <fizzie> Works if I leave the Radeon card (well, chip) out of the configuration, but that's not fun.
19:53:29 <ehird> i have a feeling that oklopol drunk is boring oklopol!
19:54:37 <ehird> "AJ: FidoNet relay forgot to pay their modem line's phone bill, evite got delayed"
19:54:38 <ehird> — http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150378896878&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
19:55:32 <fizzie> Oh, and the web server laptop boots with the new power supply, but kernel-panicks somewhere in the IPv6 code.
19:55:48 <oklopol> usually it's just old gay guys
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19:56:08 <ehird> well hit her successfully
19:56:19 <ehird> fizzie: by bomb i meant subtle breaker
19:56:27 <ehird> actually i meant no comment
19:56:51 <AnMaster> ehird, about that shirt... I checked it and you can't build all the stuff just based on it. In particular, it doesn't mention *how* when you get to around radio and such
19:56:55 <oklopol> i can't hit her because i'm so drunk i said no
19:57:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Because you buy that shirt to actually go back in time to use.
19:57:14 <fizzie> I have four LVM snapshots of the system, and I don't know which one to mount.
19:57:17 <ehird> Not for the humour/nerd factor or anything, noooooooooppppppppppe.
19:57:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Another entry in the modifier+click tabbing debate! Right click on text, hold command, click Search with Google. Bam! Tabbed.
19:58:12 <ehird> Handling a modifier key on a menu item. I think that's pretty damn devoted to consistency.
19:58:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Can you hold alt to download the search results?
19:59:01 <Deewiant> Does alt ever do that in Firefox?
19:59:24 <ehird> Well, no, but it does in Safari. SAFARI WINS THIS ROUND! :P
20:00:07 <Deewiant> I can't say I feel the need for it
20:00:28 <ehird> Clicking to download an audio file instead of showing an embedded player.
20:01:12 <Deewiant> I usually try to normal-click it first anyway
20:01:50 <Deewiant> Since these days you never know if a link leads to an HTML page which redirects to the actual download
20:02:32 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:02:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Bit annoying in non-Pro QuickTime 7, where you can't save media files from an embedded page; you have to go back and download them.
20:02:50 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:02:53 <ehird> Thankfully QuickTime X abolished the Pro b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t but I don't have the snowier Leppadz.
20:04:55 -!- fungot has joined.
20:05:07 <fungot> ehird: i guess i'll look at this beast:
20:05:10 <fungot> ehird: gregorr disappeared! :) " needs planning" website here :p) and all other numbers are a superset of x that can happen
20:05:14 <fungot> ehird: beginning to end" yet he rates it highly compatible body of real-world scheme code.) ( though i couldn't imaging that they like the visual diversity of infix languages. something similar applies to scheme. that doesn't necessarily get you to do
20:05:16 <fungot> ehird: ( textmate.) have lower precedence than the bitwise operators have such low precedence?
20:05:30 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you sure? Try it
20:05:44 <fungot> Deewiant: " pretty fast" is more than just c, it's dlopen(). if it's computable, it's compilable.
20:05:46 <ehird> fungot more like fungHOT
20:05:47 <fungot> ehird: uh. that doesn't make much sense to use reactions explicitly ( e.g.,
20:05:58 <AnMaster> hm turns out that vlc on a youtube link works directly
20:06:00 <fizzie> It's just a STRN "strstr" call to see if it's being talked to.
20:06:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:06:30 <oklopol> ehird: you're probably right that i'm boring when i'm drunk, can't really follow the discussion
20:06:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, is irc the default? or is it saved?
20:06:56 <fizzie> It's the default. It's not saved. I think.
20:07:06 <ehird> Perian + Flip4Mac > VLC
20:07:19 <ehird> Strictly in the context of OS X, you understand.
20:07:32 <ehird> Although VLC is unacceptable in general due to its inability to handle softsubs properly.
20:08:07 <fizzie> 34 non-persistent state init
20:08:07 <fizzie> 35 > 000f-p 010f-p 0"cri.nib.ledom"00fe+-P v
20:08:07 <fizzie> 36 v p-+aa000 P-+ff00"tokens.bin.irc"0 <
20:08:07 <fizzie> 38 load the babble model list
20:08:08 <fizzie> 39 > 0ccc**00"tsil.selyts"#vi$$$$v
20:08:18 <ehird> Perian uses ffmpeg and so handles them perfectly while using the normal QuickTime UI, which is pretty neato.
20:08:32 <fizzie> It seems to set model.bin.irc / tokens.bin.irc to the default file names.
20:08:37 <ehird> Although that's not really a practical approach on other OSs, because all their native players suck.
20:08:44 <ehird> Well, totem is acceptable.
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20:11:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> Although VLC is unacceptable in general due to its inability to handle softsubs properly. <-- what are softsubs
20:11:50 <ehird> Subtitles that aren't hardcoded into the video data.
20:12:03 <ehird> VLC wantonly disregards their formatting, and displays them in a jaggedy, ugly font.
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20:12:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I am not surprised.
20:12:20 -!- comex_ has joined.
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20:12:20 <ehird> Anyway, it's a total dealbreaker.
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20:12:48 <AnMaster> ehird, totem refuses to play *.aac here for example
20:12:58 <ehird> That's just a codec issue.
20:13:06 <ehird> Install faad or something, I guess.
20:13:08 <AnMaster> ehird, tried installed all the non-free codecs things
20:13:28 <ehird> Personally I'd just use mplayer.
20:13:34 <ehird> maybe with its built-in gtk gui
20:13:45 <ehird> It handles softsubs correctly and plays everything, so yeah.
20:13:58 <ehird> Also, it has the most important feature of VLC; coloured ASCII output.
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20:14:41 <Deewiant> And I keep VLC around for stuff that mplayer doesn't like
20:14:44 <ehird> I saw smplayer onne time. Looked overly comoplex and oh so Qt.
20:14:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I run into that sort of stuff quite a lot
20:15:06 <ehird> Deewiant: Compared to mplayer's default GUI.
20:15:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heck I even run into stuff that only xine handles
20:15:15 <Deewiant> Does it even have a GUI by default?
20:15:17 <ehird> Admittedly I'm a minimalist.
20:15:20 <ehird> Deewiant: It ships with one.
20:15:27 <Deewiant> gmplayer? I thought it was separate
20:15:43 <ehird> MPlayer has --enable-gtk2
20:15:57 <ehird> I think gmplayer is separate though
20:15:59 <Deewiant> But anyway, there was some issue with gmplayer which is why I switched to smplayer
20:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, mplayer <youtube url> doesn't work
20:16:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I have Flash so I don't really care.
20:19:41 <ehird> I wonder if I DDoS elitekeyboards.com they might quickly put all models back in stock.
20:19:43 <ehird> That is a stupid idea.
20:20:38 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no logic behind that
20:20:52 <ehird> They could sense my wishes.
20:21:29 <ehird> What are the kids into nowadays? Porn? Emoticons? Emoticon porn?
20:21:49 <ehird> Porn involving emoticons solving CAPTCHAs.
20:21:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you should know better than me. You are more of a kid than I am
20:21:55 <ehird> ActiveX control... written.
20:22:04 <ehird> Shady marketing campaign... is a go go.
20:22:17 <ehird> Central control IRC channel... totally friggin' established.
20:25:02 <ehird> [20:24] Sgeo: /version Wooble
20:25:02 <ehird> — presumably a /query
20:25:25 <ehird> Oh, not a mistake.
20:26:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also what was the reply?
20:26:33 <ehird> Wooble is this guy. He's a jerk :P
20:26:59 <fizzie> Heh, you're one to say. Uh, I mean...
20:27:12 <ehird> Yes, but he's a jerk to me consistently. :P
20:27:18 <ehird> ALSO I AM NOT ALONE IN MY OPINIONS
20:36:56 <AnMaster> few things are so annoying in a 3D game as when the walking animation actually doesn't match up with the speed the unit is moving at
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20:38:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Yes, but he's a jerk to me consistently. :P <-- I can understand him
20:38:48 <ehird> To me is kind of redundant, he's a jerk in general
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20:38:54 <ehird> But yeah, fuck you too
20:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, he could easily turn in one around you.
20:39:26 <ehird> I guess those days of mailing list messages when I don't speak are all lies and deceit.
20:43:41 * ehird realises how to view the comments on geekhack.org
20:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, err... what? it seems like a normal forum?
20:50:10 <ehird> Deewiant: The "3847 comments" link just links to the same page
20:50:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Clearly you have not clicked enough,.
20:50:46 <ehird> Deewiant: Say, is there a PS/2→USB adapter that doesn't use the keyboard protocol, so that it can support N-key rollover with a custom driver?
20:51:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Why ask me, ehird obviously has the site nearby
20:51:16 <Sgeo> Dang it, what's that 3d printer video that ehird linked to once?
20:51:25 <ehird> youtube.com/something
20:51:37 <ehird> Deewiant: I have no PS/2 ports, you see
20:51:46 <Sgeo> "This account is closed. "
20:51:48 <Deewiant> Then you're stuck with 6-key rollover
20:51:56 <Sgeo> There really was a user named "something"
20:52:02 <ehird> Deewiant: But there's no theoretical reason for that!
20:52:06 <Deewiant> But you probably are anyway since you probably won't code the driverr
20:52:16 <AnMaster> most PS/2 keyboards seems to have that limit too
20:52:26 <ehird> No, most keyboards handle 4 keys
20:52:27 <Sgeo> youtube.com/god
20:52:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah, 4 rather than 6
20:52:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but if it was available for buybuy, it would be available to downloadload
20:52:55 <ehird> Unless people HATE OS X WITH A FIERY BURNIN' PASSHIN'
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20:56:42 <ehird> THE "WHAT THE FRIGGIN HELL" HUMAN-COMPUTER INTERFACE PORT SPECIFICATION
20:56:56 <ehird> All values are 8-bit.
20:57:19 <ehird> 00 XX XX — keyboard pressed XX XX
20:57:41 <ehird> 01 XX YY — mouse moved in direction XX,YY from centre
20:57:56 <ehird> 02 XX — mouse button XX pressed
20:58:08 <ehird> 03 onwards — extension defined
20:58:09 <ehird> Use IEC 169-2 connectors.
20:58:54 <ehird> Example innovation: Your keyboard can have a mouse port and multiplex it into one stream!
20:59:01 <ehird> Two mice controlling the same pointer!
20:59:26 <ehird> Requires everything to have a separate power supply!
21:00:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> Requires everything to have a separate power supply! <-- is this about PS/2?
21:00:20 <ehird> No, THE "WHAT THE FRIGGIN HELL" HUMAN-COMPUTER INTERFACE PORT SPECIFICATION
21:00:27 <ehird> See 20:56 to recently
21:00:43 <AnMaster> is that something you made up just now
21:00:44 <ehird> IEC 169-2 connectors = TV cable
21:00:59 <AnMaster> no one would do keyboard or mouse over THAT
21:01:14 <ehird> It's just in the IRC logs.
21:01:16 <ehird> It's only a few lines.
21:02:10 <ehird> As a bonus, you can do a joystick or whatever without using any extensions. Use multiple cables, use mouse movements and buttons on all of them, write a driver to mix them all up!\
21:02:28 <ehird> I was trying to invent the one HID protocol simpler than Apple Desktop Bus.
21:02:46 <ehird> So why not remove such useless things as computer-to-device communication?
21:03:15 <ehird> Additionally: ADB connectors (same as S-Video) have four prongs. IEC 169-2 only has one.
21:03:18 <ehird> It is clearly simpler.
21:04:08 <ehird> Admittedly a two-pin solution would be acceptable, for delivering power.
21:04:32 <ehird> The smallest Mini-DIN is 3-pin.
21:07:16 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11706/subcatid/0/id/132564
21:07:26 <ehird> The TrackPoint will be good, if not the keyboard :P
21:07:33 <ehird> COULD BE WORSE THOUGH
21:07:42 <ehird> Also: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/9244
21:09:40 <ehird> [[It's not without its problems though. On my keyboard I get the occasional key bounce, where a key is registered twice when it's only pressed once. But it's pretty rare, and hasn't happened often enough to be annoying yet.]]
21:09:45 <ehird> Talking about brown cherries
21:09:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Not sure your decision was the best :-P
21:10:07 <Deewiant> My numpad has been fine thus far
21:10:07 <SimonRC> is "brown cherries" a euphamism?
21:10:15 <Deewiant> AAAnd reaally, annythinig isi betterrr than this sccraap.
21:10:16 <ehird> Let's pretend it is
21:10:22 <ehird> What on earth is it an euphemism for
21:10:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Does that really happen every linle?
21:10:37 <ehird> SimonRC: (They're a brand of mechanical keyswitch.)
21:10:42 <Deewiant> Not quite every, but often enoughh to be annnoying.
21:11:05 <ehird> I like how it morphed crarp into scrap
21:11:05 <Deewiant> I meaan, sosmething haappensss every line, but thhe truly baddd sshssit dodesn't alwaays happen.
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21:11:39 <ehird> Maybe I should pick myself up an Apple Extended Keyboard [II]; original ALPS keyswitches!
21:12:02 <Deewiant> Truly bad = like that 'morph', where the bounce is registered after I've already pressed (and got registered) another key
21:12:24 <Deewiant> And when that happens several times a row.
21:12:26 <SimonRC> I get that with my o key at work sometimes
21:12:58 <SimonRC> It happens enough for comedy and to give my KB a bit of character (NPI)
21:13:09 <SimonRC> but not enough to be annoying
21:13:24 <ehird> No Personal Interaction?
21:13:55 <ehird> Ah yes, the ever-popular contradiction in terms.
21:14:09 <SimonRC> I mean, I creted that sentance without intending a pun
21:14:39 <Deewiant> It's useful to say "I didn't say this to make a joke even if you read it as one"
21:14:41 <ehird> Because when you noticed the pun, you still sent the line like that
21:14:51 <ehird> The only purpose of "NPI" is "hey, notice my pun!"
21:15:16 <Deewiant> It's not always easy to modify the sentence so that there is no pun
21:15:27 <ehird> So what's the matter iwth leaving the pun as-is
21:15:29 <Deewiant> So just stick NPI there and leave it
21:15:54 <Deewiant> Because if it's read as an intended pun, it may not be taken as seriously as intended.
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21:18:17 * Sgeo realizes that there is another list of songs that will automatically, upon me hearing them, endear themselves to me
21:18:21 <Sgeo> The WebTV background songs
21:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, there? Python debugger question. How do you make it single step into a thread that is created. Rather than continue single stepping in the main thread
21:19:18 <ehird> party line: don't use threads in python, world of pain
21:19:23 <ehird> beyond that, ask #python, don't know
21:19:43 <ehird> I recommend print debugging.
21:19:46 <AnMaster> oh and it works on windows, by pure chance.
21:20:09 <Sgeo> ehird, without threads, how do I have the same Python program both receive ... um, I don't think I thought out my plans too well
21:20:48 <AnMaster> or this might even qualify for a "wut?"
21:21:02 <Sgeo> I wanted to have a python program both be an IRC bot and do something else, but the something else is "receive http stuff"
21:21:02 <ehird> sgeo is one giant whut.
21:21:06 <fizzie> I've done some threads in Python, and it wasn't that painful, compared to, say, threads in Perl.
21:21:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> sgeo is one giant whut. <-- agreed.
21:21:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is using the _thread module (was "thread" in python 2.x and yes it is broken there too..)
21:21:48 <ehird> fizzie: GIL = your threads are running in lockstep
21:22:03 <AnMaster> ehird, except when a C module says it can run freely
21:22:25 <AnMaster> ehird, some C modules *can* do that, when waiting for IO
21:22:26 <Sgeo> What's wrong with lockstep threads?
21:22:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo, um, you don't gain any speed with multi-core setups for example
21:22:59 <ehird> this is actually a revelation to Sgeo .
21:23:00 <fizzie> ehird: It doesn't really matter; the threads were still a more pleasant abstraction (relatively speaking) than some sort of select-based multiplexplexatron.
21:23:15 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it wasn't some kind of bad humour?
21:23:15 <ehird> fizzie: see multiprocessing module, a non-python language, .
21:23:20 <Sgeo> ehird, it's obvious if I come to think of it, but I didn't think of it
21:23:37 <ehird> You can tell when Sgeo is joking because it's less funny than a three year old's.
21:23:50 <AnMaster> ehird, so I'm *more* funny than Sgeo?
21:23:59 <ehird> INCIDENTALLY SGEO how do you feel about being my human punching bag
21:24:06 <ehird> just capitalistic trade, you know
21:24:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, I thought I was that one
21:24:18 <ehird> AnMaster: As much as it pains me to say it, yes
21:24:21 <ehird> Also, no, I mean literal
21:24:27 <ehird> I just yell at you when you're stupid.
21:25:02 <Deewiant> Literal punching bag? You mean you physically punch Sgeo around?
21:25:31 <ehird> And he is attached to a chain.
21:25:41 <ehird> I am currently waiting finalisation of the deal.
21:26:23 <Deewiant> So it's not necessarily a done deal
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21:26:47 <ehird> augur: You know, I'd take a prescriptivist over your uncouth writings.
21:27:26 <augur> youre still funny :)
21:27:48 <ehird> i hear that funniness is a pet peeve of a robot.
21:28:35 <augur> youve heard wrong sir!
21:32:37 <ehird> I like how Safari 4.0.3's URL completion is instant instead of delayed.
21:40:21 <AnMaster> <augur> ehird youre funny <-- youre?
21:40:32 <ehird> augur abstains from punctuation.
21:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, easy to disprove that statement: "<augur> youve heard wrong sir!" there is a "!" there
21:41:09 <AnMaster> it could have been a mistake by augur
21:41:18 <Sgeo> augur's ' key is broken
21:41:19 <ehird> 333333322222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222225555255555555555555555555555555555555555555555522222222222552222222222222222222222222222222002062222222222225222222222222222222222222222222222222222255555552222222255555588888885555555555555552555555555555555555
21:41:21 <augur> i use punctuation sporadically.
21:41:35 <augur> on and off, when i feel like it
21:41:35 <AnMaster> augur, would you write that way outside IRC?
21:41:42 <augur> often for disambiguating purposes
21:41:54 <AnMaster> augur, "on and off, when i feel like it" <-- remove that comma, or else! ;P
21:42:03 <ehird> 5555555555555000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000055556000000000000000000052222222222225222232123123231315645642222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222555555555555555555222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222255555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
21:42:03 <ehird> 5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555522222225555555555555555555555555555555555555554666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666665555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
21:42:05 <augur> for instance, i try much to disambiguate "we are" we're from "be+PST" were
21:42:12 <Sgeo> ehird, what's with the number spam?
21:44:37 <Deewiant> 5'+'=1a'@*+'Ke'@f4+**+'Ke'@'e8'@*+**+*****
21:44:58 <ehird> 854444444444444444444444444444444444446666664522222222558888888888888888888885666555555555555555522222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222220002005555555555555555555555555555 yay
21:48:26 <ehird> 566655556632222222220220022222222222222 :(
21:48:39 <Deewiant> 'c2d'Of2+738*+'_4'@f2+**+"?7@/"6'@*+';39'@**+'q'`9'#6'@:**+**+'%4'@"9^@"*+"C2!"8**+***+*****+*******
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21:52:37 <Asztal> !haskell logBase 10 256
21:55:45 <ehird> 12312312312312312323123
21:56:00 <Deewiant> '/f4+'!ad'@**+f'h2'@f4+";#@"738*+**+d9"@}&"+**+*****+***
22:00:59 <AnMaster> wow how did I manage that. Python hung and only responded to SIGKILL...
22:06:24 <SimonRC> Deewiant: what is that line noise?
22:06:41 * SimonRC tries to figure out the syntax
22:06:43 <Deewiant> Funge-98 for the aforementioned integer
22:07:28 <Deewiant> Allowing ASCII character/string constants to get some values in less space.
22:07:41 <SimonRC> well, before that point I have figured out it was a postfix language, but I thought * must be "apply"
22:12:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, even I couldn't tell for sure that actually was befunge98. After all, it is hard to tell, what with all printable chars below ASCII 127 being mapped
22:13:07 <Deewiant> Can you think of anything else it could be, off the top of your head?
22:14:03 <ehird> perl line noise jokes, funny, in 1980, almost slightly
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22:20:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> diaf <-- somehow I read that as '"die in a fucking" ... wait what? something is missing here... ...oh *fire*'
22:20:30 <ehird> Die in a fucking: die in an instance of sexual intercourse.
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22:29:09 * Sgeo is glad that either no one saw, or no one cares, that he yes | write $someone
22:29:36 <ehird> that sentence made even less sense than your usual fare.
22:29:47 <ehird> did you start typing another at the end?
22:30:04 <Sgeo> Someone in my class write'd stuff to me, so I jokingly `yes | write em` (where em is this person's username)
22:30:07 <ehird> "that he yes | write $someone"
22:30:26 <Deewiant> ehird: He did 'yes | write $someone' where $someone is a username.
22:30:45 <Deewiant> And he also explained it before I did making my message redundant.
22:30:48 <ehird> anyway, uh, that's stupid
22:33:08 <Warrigal> AnMaster: "die in a fucking" is a complete sentence. >.>
22:33:31 <AnMaster> depressing comment from python source
22:33:37 <ehird> I wonder what that >.> is supposed to represent; "and I have been known to do it!"?
22:33:38 <AnMaster> /* This has no reason to be in this file except that adding new files is a
22:34:06 <AnMaster> but they switched didn't they?
22:34:26 <Sgeo> Oh, the interpreter's source. I was wondering, since /* */ isn't exactly Python
22:34:49 <ehird> AnMaster: yes... later on
22:34:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
22:35:05 <Sgeo> Maybe I should read that stuff
22:35:14 <Sgeo> Learn a bit of C, and how interpreters work
22:35:27 <ehird> Your brain might break.
22:35:41 <AnMaster> Python interpreter source is not a good place to learn C
22:35:48 <ehird> I wonder if I'm implanting future suicidal tendencies in Sgeo.
22:35:54 <ehird> That would be fun. Also horrific, but fun.
22:35:56 <AnMaster> what with the rather horrible and macro-rich C that is used.
22:36:24 <AnMaster> yes it does the job, no it isn't pretty.
22:36:41 <ehird> god, the tenkeyless filcos are so pretty
22:36:47 <ehird> they look like something out of NeXT
22:36:50 <AnMaster> ehird, why the name tenkeyless?
22:37:00 <ehird> Because they lack the numpads.
22:37:16 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't take what you say so personally that it would cause me to hurt myself
22:37:18 <AnMaster> PyTypeObject PyDictProxy_Type = {
22:37:18 <AnMaster> PyVarObject_HEAD_INIT(&PyType_Type, 0)
22:37:23 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2730&stc=1&d=1245452778; bottom one is filco tenkeyless
22:37:28 <AnMaster> initialising part of the struct using a macro
22:37:38 <ehird> http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb
22:37:46 <ehird> Bonus: Blank keys, http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mcnpek
22:38:00 <ehird> (That blue thing is a capless ESC key)
22:38:14 <ehird> So tiny and yet so clickety-clack!
22:38:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2730&stc=1&d=1245452778; bottom one is filco tenkeyless <-- what is that thing that says "fiskars"? Isn't that some company that makes knives and snow shovels and what not?
22:39:23 <SimonRC> ... I bind the digits to my 10 desktops
22:39:31 <fizzie> Scissors, isn't that what they're most known of.
22:39:46 <ehird> SimonRC: you have problems
22:39:47 <fizzie> (It's a Finnish company.)
22:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, btw what is "filco"? googling yeilds unrelated stuff
22:39:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Keyboard company.
22:40:15 <ehird> Makes those beautiful keyboards, + a non-tenkeyless version which has a FILCO logo on the actual main board and stuff, making them ugly and suck.
22:40:16 <AnMaster> so not "FILCO Farm & Sport" then
22:40:27 <ehird> (But, you know, good if you like that sort of thing, which also means you're a Nazi.)
22:40:56 <SimonRC> 1 for eclipse, one for spodding, one for email, one for work web browsing, and 1-2 pairs for requirements + implementation desktops
22:41:02 <ehird> Also, a major floor is that solid dome on the Vista key. Solution: Buy $30 whole key replacement set, nab the alt key for the left hand side and the menu key for the right hand side.
22:41:04 <SimonRC> these are double-monitor desktops BTW
22:41:08 <ehird> Identical sizing = voila!
22:41:14 <ehird> Works best with a blank ("Otaku") model of course.
22:41:19 <ehird> SimonRC: Argh! I did that earlier today too.
22:41:25 <ehird> Aslo, your main problem is Eclipse.
22:41:41 <SimonRC> suggest an alternative to Eclipse
22:41:42 <ehird> Your second main problem is that I have no idea what spodding is.
22:42:19 <ehird> SimonRC: Castration, unanesthetized amputation...
22:42:29 <SimonRC> oh, and I have a desktop to hold the music player and the terminal I play quake from
22:42:37 <ehird> SimonRC: Genital torture..
22:42:43 <ehird> You know, all good stand-ins for Eclipse.
22:43:02 <SimonRC> I meant something I can write Java with
22:43:11 <ehird> Right, that's what I meant.
22:43:27 <ehird> Anyway, how small is your monitor?
22:44:11 <SimonRC> well, at work I have a pair of 1280*???
22:44:30 <ehird> Heh... I have one 1680x1050 and consider it small.
22:45:07 <SimonRC> .. while the Chairman and upper management are stuck with old CRTs hooked up to their laptops
22:45:17 <ehird> (Other flaws with Filco boards: staggered keys (of course, this being ubiquitous, you can hardly complain), bit of wasted space in the arrow-keys-and-miscellaneous-shit column due to traditional layout, Bluetooth versions seem scarce (the cord kinda ruins that dinky NeXT look, and Bluetooth keyboards don't lag like radio ones. But then again, it's kinda endearing.). Probably some others.)
22:46:02 <ehird> (I haven't actually used them, due to having not bought mine yet due to it being out of stock.)
22:46:10 <ehird> SimonRC: Look at q, a, z or equivalent dvorak keys (first key in row).
22:46:15 <ehird> See the diagonal pattern?
22:46:29 <ehird> It's a useless artefact of history, and we could do without its crookedness.
22:46:39 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> .. while the Chairman and upper management are stuck with old CRTs hooked up to their laptops <-- how strange
22:47:00 <ehird> AnMaster: What, laptops hooked up to their old CRTs?
22:47:04 <ehird> Like, the old CRT is their computer?
22:47:06 <SimonRC> devs need the computing opwer more, so they get better computers
22:47:08 <ehird> And their laptops provide the I/O devices?
22:48:04 <ehird> I'm so glad CRTs are dead.
22:48:29 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, you still see them every now and then
22:48:31 <ehird> "What about the LEDs - some people were really bugged by the bright blue LEDs on the Filco Brown Cherry board." Whiners. Just disconnect the LEDs!
22:48:38 <SimonRC> they have very deep desks (diagonal corners), and I think they are quite hi-res monitors, so why replace them?
22:48:43 <ehird> But ow — http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2707&stc=1&d=1245359002 — the browns do indeed pack some lightage.
22:49:16 <ehird> That's its two eyes, you know. It's watching you.
22:49:40 <AnMaster> ehird, those have round windows keys
22:49:52 <ehird> Yes, with a solid dome.
22:50:07 <ehird> So get a replacement set, and use the alt key for the left side one and the menu key for the right.
22:50:07 <ehird> Same sizes == voila!
22:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, trust me, they are horrible to type on
22:50:18 <ehird> I've used them. I'm detailing a solution, so STFU.
22:50:31 <ehird> (Works best on the blank ("Otaku") boards, of course, since then they're indistinguishable.)
22:50:44 <ehird> Admittedly the replacement sets cost $30, but I'm that adamant about These Things.
22:51:08 <Gregor> https://codu.org/projects/gjs/hg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/test.js
22:51:20 <ehird> You continue to hit new points of pointlessosity!
22:51:36 <ehird> (Side note: pointlessosity. Best word ever, or GREATEST word ever?)
22:52:50 <ehird> Anyway, depending on how Deewiant likes his browns I might get them + two otaku replacement keycaps (one to blank it, the other to provide the alt/menu keys to dud out the windows keys). Pricey, but less pricey than the time it'd take to wait for the blues to get back in stock.
22:53:15 <Sgeo> http://normish.org/sgeo/quotes.txt
22:53:19 <ehird> (Brown = tactile (rebounds), no click sound (sound comes from bottoming out). Blue = tactile, click sound. Brown requires 5 grams less force to activate.)
22:53:37 <ehird> Sgeo: What a waste of time :P
22:54:02 * Sgeo just needs to figure out crontab
22:54:36 <ehird> Crontab is like a 30-second job to figure out every time I use it because I don't care enough to remember it. Do you not know about manpages or something?
22:55:04 <SimonRC> I just can't see the word "Otaku" without thinking of (adverts maybe NSFW!) http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Otaku
22:55:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Meaning?
22:55:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it won't be followed by anything
22:55:41 <ehird> AnMaster: "Look at all that fuel and money you're wasting getting a whole replacement set"?
22:55:47 <ehird> I AM YOUNG AND CAVALIER
22:56:01 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes, well, that's the implication innit.
22:56:12 <ehird> Or rather, the company as asian and only uber-nerds want black keycaps.
22:56:30 <ehird> Add in some social isolation and the company location and you're close enough to otaku so what the fuck, let's just brand the keyboards that way!
22:56:32 <AnMaster> ehird, btw what was that about the bunny before?
22:57:03 <ehird> Nothing, AnMaster.
22:57:30 <ehird> Well. That's your problem.
22:57:45 <Sgeo> Ok, quotes.txt should update every 30 minutes
22:58:10 <ehird> We don't add quotes every 30 minutes, Sgeo.
22:58:27 * Sgeo doesn't like lag time
22:59:39 <ehird> 30 minutes is a pretty long lag time for that, then.
23:00:33 <Sgeo> I don't want to tax Gregor's server
23:00:49 <AnMaster> um what about a passive daemon?
23:00:58 <Gregor> If you want to set up an hg server, I could set it up to push to you.
23:00:59 <AnMaster> with notification rather than polling
23:01:34 <Sgeo> How easy/difficult would that be?
23:01:41 <ehird> Electricity should be polling-based; then our infrastructure would be.
23:01:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: Depends on how much experience you have.
23:02:00 <AnMaster> Gregor, are those hackego quotes?
23:02:06 <AnMaster> if so, where the hell is some of those from
23:02:15 <Sgeo> AnMaster, Sine
23:02:17 <AnMaster> pretty sure not all of those are from in here
23:02:39 <Warrigal> Doesn't Aftran frequent this channel? :-P
23:02:51 <ehird> Miya came here once or twice.
23:03:39 <Sgeo> Warrigal's trying to bring someone in here
23:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how insane in python is it to delay calling __init__ of the object you inherit from until later. As in, not in from your own __init__ but from somewhere else.
23:03:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, Java does that too.
23:04:01 <ehird> C++ as well I think.
23:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant... *not call parent constructor in your own constructor*
23:04:23 <ehird> AnMaster: You have to call your superclass' __init__ inside your own.
23:04:33 <ehird> If you don't you are retarded and should be shot with a poker.
23:04:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I need to do it in another thread though
23:05:00 <AnMaster> ehird, not my code originally, just trying to fix it
23:06:21 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:06:34 <Sgeo> Hm, I don't see how to make crontab run something every minute, without spec... wait, * for all would work, I guess
23:06:39 <Sgeo> What if I wanted every other minute?
23:06:52 <SimonRC> there is a syntax for "only odd numbers" and the like
23:07:07 <ehird> Normish is gonna love you.
23:07:19 <Gregor> You really ought to set up an hg server :P
23:07:34 <Sgeo> Ok, how do I go about doing that?
23:07:41 <Gregor> 1) Make sure hg is installed.
23:08:02 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure it's not
23:08:11 <Gregor> 2) Put hgweb.cgi (customized properly) somewhere with a rel---
23:08:14 <Gregor> Well then you're fekked.
23:08:18 <ehird> "Is /etc an ok place to do that?"
23:08:29 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm not an idiot
23:08:40 <Sgeo> Everything would be in a subdirectory of my home directory
23:08:50 <ehird> "~/.emacs.d/ is fine right?"
23:11:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I ran into this: http://sprunge.us/QWgh <-- what the hell does that python syntax do.
23:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well what makes the "for" at the end bit
23:11:59 <AnMaster> it is some sort of list comperhension?
23:12:02 <ehird> Umm... you really shouldn't be maintaining Python code if you don't know about list comprehensions.
23:12:09 <ehird> Like, stop. Now. rtft.
23:12:17 <Gregor> SpiderMonkey is FRIGGIN' HUGE.
23:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not "maintaining" it, just trying to understand it.,
23:12:33 <Gregor> Is V8 smaller? As easy to use?
23:12:34 <ehird> It's like an ENERGY DRINK for your NADS^WADS^WAPPLICATIONS
23:12:48 <ehird> And zzoooooooooooooooom like a billion times faster.
23:12:58 <ehird> Also x86 only! Ha ha other processors suck flaming cocks.
23:13:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Change it to an inline if if you can.
23:13:21 <ehird> or/and is inscrutable and fails if foo can be false in (... or foo)
23:13:40 <ehird> 'wall' if y in (0,7) else x in (0,7)
23:13:54 <ehird> (Better to use immutable tuples for those ins, I think)
23:13:59 <Sgeo> I must be misreading it. It will always be wall
23:14:03 <ehird> Same with the random.choice
23:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: *are; yes.
23:14:13 <ehird> Because they're expressions, not statements.
23:14:24 <Gregor> ehird: Oh yeah, x86-only. I remember going through engines and not choosing V8 for some reason.
23:14:28 <AnMaster> ehird, and that is no issue due to working with 3.1
23:14:33 <ehird> Gregor: Ehh, who cares?
23:14:42 <ehird> Gregor: Fastest in existence, lightweight, simple
23:14:52 <ehird> Gregor: Yeah, uh, it supports _64.
23:15:09 <ehird> Chromium has a 64-bit version.
23:15:14 <ehird> Maybe it runs the code as 32-bit there. Who cares, though?
23:15:27 <ehird> Are these silly JS toys going to be accessing over 4GiB of RAM?
23:16:18 <Gregor> They might be better-compiled with more registers :P
23:16:19 <ehird> Besides, speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.
23:16:31 <ehird> SpiderMonkey is like the slowest thing that was ever slow in slowland.
23:16:43 <ehird> And hogging. And bloated. And complex and bleaaaaaaaargh. Basically it's Mozilla :P
23:16:51 <AnMaster> ehird, in a few years I guess considering the current trend in bloated websites the answer will be yes
23:16:57 <SimonRC> ehird: stop confusing me by referring to a differen SM than the one my company makes ;-)
23:17:20 <ehird> SimonRC: I blame me. No wait, I blame your company. :P
23:17:26 * SimonRC recalls the resons why TBL made HTML very non-turing-complete
23:18:12 <ehird> Easy editing for one, I'd assume.
23:18:22 <ehird> Since WorldWideWeb was a WYSIWYG editor, too.
23:18:26 <SimonRC> AnMaster: http://corefiling.com/products/spidermonkey.html
23:18:35 <ehird> He means t he reasons.
23:18:36 <Sgeo> I misread [0,7] as range(0,7)
23:19:00 <ehird> SimonRC: I died and went to enterprise buzzspeak hell.
23:19:09 <ehird> As far as I can tell this SpiderMonkey runs Java on your system and then proceeds to semanticise nothing.
23:19:27 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I meant "* SimonRC recalls the resons why TBL made HTML very non-turing-complete"
23:19:37 <SimonRC> these are all technical terms
23:19:47 <ehird> "Intuitive, consistent user interface" // suuure
23:19:54 <ehird> AnMaster: It's the SpiderMonkey his company makes.
23:19:59 <ehird> As opposed to the JS engine we were talking about.
23:20:01 <SimonRC> AnMaster: that was supposed to be for ehird , oops
23:20:09 <ehird> [23:16] SimonRC: ehird: stop confusing me by referring to a differen SM than the one my company makes ;-)
23:20:16 <Gregor> Incidentally, there's tracemonkey.
23:20:36 <ehird> Gregor: Still slow.
23:20:39 <ehird> All the other properties remain.
23:20:44 <SimonRC> AnMaster: I don't have Weaving The Web to hand, but ISTR one of the main ones was that web pages shouldn't be able to loop forever or crash
23:20:49 <ehird> SimonRC: how much does the Enterprise edition actually cost?
23:20:53 <ehird> it's "contact us for quote"
23:21:26 <ehird> 5 bajillion megabucks?
23:22:00 <AnMaster> SimonRC, so what the hell is that buzzwordridden page actually about
23:22:11 <ehird> In all fairness, AnMaster,
23:22:33 <ehird> "So what the hell is that buzzwordridden page titled Python's Object Model actually about"
23:22:38 <ehird> "In normal language, I'm not a programmer"
23:22:43 <ehird> Unreasonable, right?
23:23:09 <AnMaster> ehird, true I guess. Still what about a simplification.
23:23:30 <AnMaster> plus you said "<ehird> SimonRC: I died and went to enterprise buzzspeak hell." above :P
23:23:40 <ehird> s/Python's Object Model/High-speed tensor wave-particle reactions in a quantum vacuum 4-space with N2x5R5 symmetry/
23:23:43 <Sgeo> ehird, what's wrong with Joel's articles?
23:23:44 <SimonRC> AnMaster: it is a program for editing XBRL taxonomies, which define what stuff you can have in an XBRL document, which is a standardised way of recording accounts and things.
23:23:45 <ehird> s/programmer/physicist/
23:23:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, jokingly
23:24:05 <ehird> SimonRC: so basically it edits database schemas.
23:24:05 <AnMaster> SimonRC, ah. accounts as in user accounts?
23:24:38 <ehird> "what stuff you can have" = valid components and facets of the components of an entry
23:24:47 <ehird> recording accounts and things = list of entries
23:25:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no, XRBL metaschema taxonomg[sic from the editions table on that page]
23:25:16 * pikhq just learned CMake.
23:25:25 <SimonRC> I don't knoe the details; I don't work on that product.
23:25:39 <ehird> pikhq: But it's abominable.
23:25:52 <pikhq> Cmake 2.6 seems to not have much that's abominable.
23:26:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean 2.6.3 and later
23:26:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not bad.
23:26:13 <AnMaster> because if didn't support () inside before 2.6.3
23:26:21 <ehird> pikhq: I prescribe 43.57floz of Haskellin a day, take for seven weeks.
23:26:34 <ehird> Please report on whether your mental anomalies subside by then.
23:26:43 <pikhq> ehird: I should be more specific: not bad *for a C build system*.
23:26:49 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, I could do this for OS X too :P
23:26:51 <ehird> Have you SEEN the internals, pikhq?
23:27:01 <ehird> RUN! RUN! FIRE AND BRIMSTONE! SAME MAKERS WHO MADE A GCC TO XML THING!
23:27:08 <AnMaster> ehird, please read python internals before you mention that again :P
23:27:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Good luck!
23:27:18 <ehird> Also, Python is a relatively sane bytecode VM.
23:27:19 <Sgeo> What does that even MEAN?
23:27:27 <ehird> gcc parse tree fuck... thingie
23:27:39 <AnMaster> Sgeo, well it dumps the parse tree as XML iirc
23:28:05 <Sgeo> So humans interested in learning can learn, or is it meant to have a "useful" purpose?
23:28:21 <AnMaster> Sgeo, that isn't human readable
23:28:28 <pikhq> ehird: You do realise that the only notable alternative is a god-awful kludge of Make, shell, and M4, right?
23:28:38 <AnMaster> besides, gcc can already dump to a more readable format
23:28:42 <ehird> pikhq: Well, SCon— no, wait, SCons sucks.
23:29:11 <Sgeo> So what is the point, exactly?
23:29:31 <ehird> pikhq: Just write it in fucking Make, it's horrific but just keep it simple and deal with the bullshit... it's less than what autotools piles on you. Have a config.mk for user-definable things, you know, it's just like INI files. And then if you must, a simple shell-based detector for certain OS features.
23:29:37 <ehird> (That writes out a platform.mk, or whatever.)
23:30:02 <pikhq> ehird: But doing a proper makefile is quite a bit more work...
23:30:06 <AnMaster> ehird, a lot of work I see no reason to spend when there is something that can do this a lot faster for me
23:30:25 <AnMaster> with all the features like make clean working automagically
23:30:28 <pikhq> (I have done this same damned project using straight make, Cmake, and Autotools.)
23:30:33 <ehird> I've seen the size of cfunge's cmake configuration files... it is absolutely not a simpler, smaller solution.
23:30:36 * SimonRC has read some of the Nethack code
23:30:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> I've seen the size of cfunge's cmake configuration files... it is absolutely not a simpler, smaller solution. <-- that may not be representative
23:30:55 <pikhq> In order of preference: Cmake, make, and Autotools.
23:31:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I have also read other projects.
23:31:17 <ehird> KDE is so fucked up I'm not even going to bother looking at it.
23:31:20 <pikhq> Make is annoying. Cmake is decent. Autotools is... awful.
23:31:33 <pikhq> Yeah, KDE really fails at build-systems.
23:31:54 <SimonRC> huge shell script that makes really nasty makefile, AFAICT
23:32:19 <ehird> The shit that cmake and autotools hand to you... and you get to use a language specific to that system, not widely understood... a dependency, in the case of cmake, on cmake. Plus code complexity, no real shortening for non-trivial stuff over a simple, clean Makefile + a simple shell script...
23:32:26 <ehird> All a bunch of crap because nobody thinks of anything else.
23:32:33 <ehird> The Real Solution is to stop using C, of course. :P
23:32:50 <AnMaster> SimonRC, there is no .sh on it
23:32:53 <SimonRC> it is the first part of "./configure.sh ; make ; make install"
23:33:10 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what OS have you been using...
23:33:22 <pikhq> ehird: Definitely the proper solution.
23:33:40 <pikhq> Pity that we tend to use OSes that assume much C.
23:33:44 <SimonRC> I saw it while compiling ghc I think
23:33:46 <AnMaster> SimonRC, not *nix recently I guess
23:34:07 <ehird> "irssi v0.8.10-rc5 - running on Linux x86_64"
23:34:27 <AnMaster> that is worse than even autotools
23:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it's worse than autotools
23:34:46 <ehird> http://olsner.se/2008/03/29/ant-sucks/ pretty much covers it
23:34:51 <AnMaster> at least autotool *does the job*
23:34:55 <ehird> ant doesn't bother to do any of the things that make a build system useful
23:34:56 <SimonRC> now WTF does it say x86_64
23:34:59 <ehird> just not at all, it just omits them
23:35:02 <SimonRC> I didn;t think this was a 64-bit system
23:35:07 <ehird> you get to deal with its quirks and verbosities!
23:35:09 <ehird> shweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
23:35:16 <ehird> schweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
23:35:21 <ehird> wow it did aligned.
23:35:45 <AnMaster> due to you dropping one char and adding another
23:35:46 <ehird> proporntional font
23:35:53 <ehird> i didn't do it intentionallly
23:36:00 <ehird> i just held down e for what seemed like a good time
23:36:06 <ehird> i must be an autistic savant
23:36:08 <SimonRC> ant is targeted at typical Java programmers and has the syntax of XML
23:36:22 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it doesn't even do proper rebuilds
23:36:24 <olsner> ehird: omg I got linked
23:36:32 <SimonRC> AnMaster: we use some other stuff with it
23:36:44 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what then is the point of ant at all
23:36:45 <ehird> olsner: i know right! you haven't posted anything since july 2008, you should do something about that. it's illegal not to
23:36:47 <SimonRC> it works well for us at the moment
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23:36:49 <ehird> AnMaster: stupidity
23:37:16 <olsner> ehird: yeah... I have a vague plan to post something at some point though
23:37:20 <pikhq> ... Holy fuck. Ant doesn't even do rebuilds?
23:37:28 <pikhq> What's the advantage over a shell script, exactly?
23:37:43 <ehird> pikhq: Shell script? Fuck that shit! X! M! L!
23:37:49 <pikhq> ehird: So, there isn't one.
23:37:59 <pikhq> Freaking Java programmers.
23:38:01 <olsner> pikhq: the rebuild is about the second thing you build into an ant script... since it doesn't do dependencies, you never get things properly built
23:38:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: read it hours ago, now if i could just remember it...
23:38:06 <SimonRC> ant handles multiple configurations?
23:38:14 <olsner> ant rebuild! problem solved :(
23:38:15 <ehird> Ooh ooh, but you can have multiple targets, SO IT IS ONLY LIKE TWICE AS LONG AS A CASE...ESAC ON $1
23:38:35 <ehird> i love darwin's expression in the last panel
23:38:46 <SimonRC> ant is portable between unix and windows?
23:39:04 <olsner> kind of, but so is bash
23:39:14 <ehird> bash is portable to cygwin
23:39:16 <ehird> which doesn't count
23:39:34 <oerjan> ehird: dammit i thought i was going to get away with not looking it up again
23:39:39 <Sgeo> Somewhat relevant: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99557.aspx
23:39:56 <olsner> hmm, let's say this: ant is about equally useless on both windows and unix
23:41:01 <Sgeo> Got mercurial installed on normish, Gregor
23:41:17 <ehird> olsner: Portable uselessness!
23:41:40 <Gregor> Sgeo: Next step: Choose your hg directory, and hg init there.
23:42:07 <oerjan> ""Monkey's uncle" dates to before 1847, when it appears as the name of a character in a farce played in London . This precedes the publication in 1859 of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species. "I'll be a monkey's uncle" dates from after 1926, the date of the widely publicized Scopes Trial in the United States, where the term first appears. It appears in print starting in the 1930s."
23:43:20 <ehird> [23:42] pikhq: Sgeo Ploffing?
23:43:21 <ehird> [23:42] Gregor: pikhq: Unrelated.
23:43:21 <ehird> [23:43] Sgeo: Done
23:43:27 <ehird> I scratched my head at those three lines.
23:43:38 <ehird> What does it all mean, an army of sneezing wangs stalks my nightmare.
23:43:53 <pikhq> "Ploffing" in this context means "working on Plof".
23:43:57 <Gregor> Sgeo: Then find hgweb.cgi (it's probably installed somewhere, and it's all over the webernets) and put that into some web-accessible cgi dir.
23:44:00 <pikhq> Which is in a Mercurial repo.
23:44:03 <ehird> Yes. I figured that out after I realised they were unconnected as a whole.
23:44:23 <Sgeo> I don't know if normish has a web-accessible cgi dir
23:44:33 <Sgeo> What is hgweb.cgi for, anyway>?
23:45:10 <ehird> UGH, Gregor. Your use of the... VERNACULAR.
23:45:48 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's somewhere to push the hg repo to via http. Otherwise you'll need to either run a server or give me ssh access.
23:47:17 <Sgeo> AddHandler cgi-script .cgi
23:47:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: Then you just have to make an htpasswd file with some predetermined username and password, and a short .htaccess file I'll send you via PM
23:48:31 * ehird whimsically designs the loudest, most clicky keyboard ever
23:48:57 <Sgeo> I know zilch about Apache
23:49:07 <ehird> Gregor: Congrats, Sgeo just wasted your time.
23:49:27 <Sgeo> Should I look up how to makie an htpasswd, or is there a tool for that
23:49:56 <Gregor> htpasswd -c .../bleh.htpasswd <username>
23:58:37 <ehird> http://tagloot.com/
23:58:42 <ehird> Keyboard and mouse made out of actual bamboo.
23:58:50 <ehird> Yes, including the keycaps.
23:59:46 <ehird> "Keys are made of plastic, however they are colored to give you the impression that they are made of bamboo"
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00:30:25 <Sgeo> HOW TF DID I MISS THAT THERE WAS NEW OOTS NINE HOURS AGO?!?!?
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00:39:10 <ehird> Right, I've turned into a keyboard nerd.
00:41:51 <ehird> Mechanical switches, doo doo doo doo/Maker is Cherry, doo doo doo doo/Which is better, brown or blueeeeeeee?/I don't know, who gives a who this song is crap
00:43:39 <ehird> what keyboard do you use
00:43:51 <augur> which computer keyboard?
00:44:43 <augur> an apple keyboard. i rather like it.
00:44:48 <augur> its small, minimalist.
00:45:37 <ehird> 2007 model, I presume.
00:45:57 <ehird> I don't know which they use, but it's either rubber dome or scissor-switch; as it is identical to their notebook keyboards, probably scissor-switch.
00:46:08 <ehird> augur: Heretic. Burn at the stake. You are not fit to exist in the legion of true keyboards.
00:46:26 <ehird> I'm like a gay-bashing republican, typing this from a scissor-switch x(
00:46:27 <augur> i dont care about your "true keyboards"
00:46:46 <augur> you're missing capitalization and punctuation.
00:47:12 <augur> "republican" should be capitalized
00:47:19 <augur> and you missed a period at the end of your sentence.
00:47:33 <ehird> I haven't slept for >24 hours, gimme a break.
00:47:46 <augur> thats not english!
00:47:49 <ehird> It's a wonder I'm not going "i havent slept for>24 hrs"
00:48:12 <ehird> Provides a definition for it, what nnot.
00:50:01 <ehird> Story of the butterfly: ah open window. me no likely rain. shiny, ooh, is that a fruit on it, no, looks like plastic, anyway, oh, what's this little slot next to the huge hard brick *promptly falls down* i will just sit here now
00:50:09 <augur> OS X is using american english
00:50:12 <augur> you're not american
00:50:15 <ehird> I set it to British English.
00:50:29 <ehird> Not in the way you're thinking.
00:50:44 <ehird> System Preferences → International → Drag "British English" to the top.
00:50:49 <ehird> Not changing the keyboard layout.
00:51:04 <ehird> Anyway, I don't give a fuck.
00:51:07 <augur> actually i was wrong
00:51:15 <augur> "a short putt in golf"
00:51:17 <ehird> I just prefer British spelling in most cases, it flows better.
00:51:20 <augur> or "something easily achieved or won"
00:51:30 <augur> it is not, however, a standard accepted contraction of "give me"
00:51:51 <ehird> Have you considered that there is a difference between a prescriptivist and someone who uses punctuation and capitalisataiton?
00:51:59 <augur> ofcourse, it is an overwhelmingly COMMON contraction of "give me", but that doesnt matter
00:52:06 <augur> have you considered that there isnt?
00:52:21 <ehird> I guess Language Log is written by a prescriptivist.
00:52:24 <ehird> (You're a dumbass, btw.)
00:52:53 <augur> ofcourse theres a difference between using punctuation and capitalization, but you're not merely using them
00:52:59 <augur> you apparently complain when i _dont_ use them
00:53:07 <augur> which /is/ prescriptivism.
00:53:12 <ehird> Yes, because your text takes longer for me to read that way.
00:53:15 <augur> of the most yawningly facile sort, ofcourse
00:53:20 <augur> oh bullshit it does not you liar
00:53:26 <ehird> "gtg lol kthx2u ;)" is also overwhelmingly common, but it is not readable.
00:53:29 <ehird> augur: I am not lying.
00:53:30 <augur> you're just a little twat
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02:13:31 <ehird> Now that I know all 'bout keyboards, time to research MICE!
02:16:19 * Sgeo is going to try Tremulous
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03:32:38 <zzo38> I invented a CPU architecture, called 16X, with bytes that are 16-bits long.
03:32:42 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0textfile/processor/16x.cpu
03:36:58 <ehird> Can't use gopher links.
03:37:45 <zzo38> Just use echo textfile/processor/16x.cpu | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 > 16x.cpu.txt
03:38:19 <ehird> Long instructions; I like long instructions.
03:38:43 <ehird> After a 15-second skim, I like this.
03:40:02 <ehird> zzo38: Is HOAX named that intentionally? :)
03:40:24 <zzo38> It is actually a abbreviation for "High Octet AX"
03:40:54 <ehird> Hmm. It occurs to me that a major blocker for switching to Macs is that there is no elegant, usable, Mac-like Gopher software for OS X!
03:41:15 <ehird> How can I be using such a useless OS? It's practically a toy now that I realise this lack :-D
03:41:47 <zzo38> Really, that makes it completely useless?
03:41:59 <ehird> Absolutely, I'm sure you'll agree.
03:42:12 <ehird> I thought the lack of a Commodore 64 emulator by default was crippling enough!
03:42:50 <zzo38> And I'm sure some such software must exist. Even if it doesn't, it is UNIX based which means netcat is usable for gopher (and many other protocols too, such as whois, finger, etc.)
03:42:54 <ehird> http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?a=gopher%3A%2F%2Fzzo38computer.cjb.net%3A70%2F works, btw.
03:43:15 <ehird> zzo38: I don't think there's any OS X gopher software as opposed to stuff depending on you running the X11 server application
03:43:19 <ehird> Would be fun to write
03:43:37 <ehird> Maybe I'll have extensions so I can be cool like Firefox and support your silly fun Gopher scripting stuff.
03:43:46 <zzo38> There's also bashgopher, which works in any system with bash (even MinGW)
03:44:00 <zzo38> There is a extension for Firefox to support gopher protocol better, called Overbite.
03:44:16 <ehird> Overbite is from the same people as that gopher/http bridge.
03:44:45 <ehird> But honestly, how on earth can we expect Mac users to navigate Gopher without a sleek, hand-crafted point-and-click interface?!
03:45:14 <ehird> I mean, what does Steve Jobs do when he wants to consider switching to your new CPU architecture, eh? :-P
03:45:50 <zzo38> Steve Jobs doesn't need to switch to my new CPU architecture. It is just a hobby, like Magic-1 was made just because they wanted to and no other use.
03:46:15 <ehird> You can't rule out the possibility.
03:46:19 <zzo38> But, gopher is easily accessed without any dedicated client using the UNIX command-line, even though that isn't point-click (WIMP) interface.
03:46:30 <ehird> I'm joking about all of this, by the way
03:46:37 <ehird> Apart from the actually making it part; that'd be vaguely amusing.
03:47:06 <zzo38> Well, ya, of course.
03:47:39 <ehird> Gopher + the Cocoa API even gives the oh-so-catchy name Gophocoa.
03:48:25 <zzo38> (I use Vonkeror for gopher browsing, it is a web-browser with gopher support built-in, too, but anything else works just as well)
03:48:46 <zzo38> Yes, I guess, if a gopher client is made with Cocoa API then it should be called Gophocoa, for this purpose!
03:49:07 <ehird> I keep mentally tripping over Gophocoa and pronouncing it Gophococoa :-P
03:49:10 <zzo38> Since I wrote Bash Gopher, now I also have to write Zeux Gopher and Frob Gopher.
03:49:31 <ehird> So, from the "echo textfile/processor/16x.cpu | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70" line, I assume that Gopher's only command is "get this file"?
03:49:44 <zzo38> Yes, that is gopher's only command.
03:49:52 <ehird> Nice and simple. What's the index called?
03:50:05 <zzo38> The root directory index is just send a blank line.
03:50:14 <ehird> Heh, I figured that out a second before you said it
03:50:22 <ehird> There's extensions like being able to submit form input or whatever, isn't there?
03:50:50 <zzo38> Yes, there is Gopher+ ASK forms. However, it isn't common, and it is completely optional, like it should be.
03:51:29 <ehird> As my sleep-deprived self inches closer and closer to inevitable sleep, I guess I have nothing better to do than to write a Gopher index parser.
03:51:32 <zzo38> Vonkeror supports ASK forms, however not many sites use it, and I don't use them myself either.
03:52:21 <ehird> Apart from the first character on the line (what's the difference between 1 and h? does h mean non-gopher link?) the directory list format seems extremely simple - name<TAB>directory<TAB>server<TAB>port
03:53:33 <zzo38> However, I have been thinking of another completely optional feature, a simpler way to submit form data, called "editable gopher". After the selector string, instead of a CRLF you put a STX character, followed by the data to send and a EOT at the end. The old version is taken from just doing a normal request, and then you edit it in a text editor and send it this way. You should be able to easily write a short shell-script to add these headers
03:54:04 <ehird> zzo38: I suggest encoding end-of-lines instead
03:54:06 <ehird> and ending with CRLF
03:54:11 <ehird> That way, it's backwards-compatible
03:54:21 <ehird> (Just shows up as a ridiculous filename to unsupporting servers if you do thaht)
03:54:23 <zzo38> The first character on the line is the type code. 1 is menu, 0 is plain text, h is HTML (not commonly used, and not recomended for most purposes), 7 is query, etc
03:55:00 <zzo38> The common ones are 1 0 7 9 which should be supported by the simplest clients. 9 is download binary file
03:55:21 <zzo38> If the gopher client is built-in to a web browser, the h type should also be supported, and also g and I types (g=GIF image, I=any image)
03:55:39 <ehird> Anyway, I assume the first character is only useful for e.g. displaying an icon relevant to that type?
03:55:43 <zzo38> A query is, after the selector string you send a TAB followed by the query text (a single line of text input from the user)
03:55:47 <ehird> Because you'd infer any types from the contents of the file you got back, presumably.
03:56:01 <ehird> Otherwise, gopher:// links could differ from clicking links, which would be Freaky.
03:56:04 <zzo38> No, the first character is used also for the client to know what type of file it is.
03:56:13 <ehird> Oh, gopher links include the type, don't they?
03:56:25 <zzo38> After the host:port, you put the / and the type code, and then the selector string.
03:56:38 <zzo38> That's the format of a gopher URL.
03:56:55 * ehird briefly considers writing this in Objective-C for That Authentic Mac Taste, remembers Cocoa's string handling functions, decides to use Python instead
03:57:42 <ehird> Why are all the GUI development thingies so intimidating?
03:58:15 <zzo38> I don't know why that is.
03:59:30 <zzo38> And, as it turns out, I am also playing a pinball game at this time, whenever I am not typing, I am playing pinball game. It is a flipperless pinball game called "Jiggle Box", and with a few changes I have made to it, I think it is pretty good, I like it like this.
03:59:46 <zzo38> Have you ever played any kind of flipperless pinball games?
03:59:51 <ehird> Nope; how does that work?
04:00:41 <zzo38> Basically it is just a pinball game, but without flippers. So the only control is launching and bumping. With flippered games you have lauching, bumping, and flipping.
04:00:59 <zzo38> And often also rotating lights in flippered games.
04:01:02 <Gregor> BECAUSE YOU TOUCH YOURSELF AT NIGHT.'
04:01:18 <Gregor> Bleh, I'm lagged again, aren't I :P
04:01:33 <Gregor> Yup, horribly lagged. My joke is horrendously mistimed.
04:01:51 <ehird> # Copyright __MyCompanyName__ 2009. All rights reserved.
04:01:52 <ehird> ↑ Xcode sure does make some assumptions about the opensourceness of the software I'm writing, and my employment status.
04:02:21 <zzo38> Just change the templates if either or both assumptions are wrong.
04:02:34 <Gregor> I work for __MyCompanyName__ inc.
04:02:35 <ehird> Yeah; not sure where so I just changed it in the file.
04:02:45 <ehird> Oh, the joys of reverse DNS naming: "com.yourcompany.Gophocoa".
04:03:08 <ehird> Guess I'll make a PURL.
04:04:37 <zzo38> Jiggle Box generally gives you nine balls, but there is a hole that causes immediate Game Over if you get the ball in there. Hitting all the drop targets will change it to 500 points instead, but once you get that, it will change back to Game Over.
04:05:10 <ehird> Temporarily redirected to http://purple.com/!
04:05:56 <zzo38> What's temporarily redirected?
04:06:14 <zzo38> Why is it temporarily redirected?
04:06:22 <ehird> Because I don't have a site to point it to, and purple.com is fun.
04:06:26 <ehird> I need a reverse-DNS string to identify Gophocoa to OS X.
04:06:30 <ehird> So I'l getting a PURL
04:06:33 <ehird> (http://purl.org/)
04:07:46 <ehird> Excellent, I now have http://purl.org/net/gophocoa, i.e. org.purl.net.gophocoa
04:08:06 <Gregor> First time I'd gone to purple.com
04:08:11 <Gregor> That is indeed purple.
04:08:16 <ehird> You missed the link!
04:08:16 <Gregor> I question the need for /purple.html
04:08:19 <ehird> TRY AGAIN YOU FAIL AT PURPLE
04:09:36 <ehird> I hereby declare Xcode with Python + PyObjC: NOT ENTIRELY HORRIFIC!
04:09:42 <ehird> Gregor: Don't miss the Purple Game!
04:10:06 <ehird> You know, I'm fairly sure MainMenu.xib shouldn't be my main application window thingy
04:11:33 <ehird> Hmm, it sure will be fun attempting to draw a gopher icon.
04:12:28 <Gregor> I CAN'T PROVE THAT THERE'S NOT
04:12:34 <ehird> I'm trying to think of a single preference a Gopher app that obeys the general user interface expectations could reasonably have
04:12:40 <ehird> I can think of one: homepage
04:12:45 <ehird> MAYBE, at a stretch, let you configure colours.
04:13:07 <ehird> Gregor: http://www.purple.com/availability.html
04:13:31 <Gregor> I DO have a spare $750K lying around.
04:14:05 <zzo38> Yes, homepage is a good one. You might also want to allow the homepage to be a gopher menu file loaded from the local file-system, in case you want bookmarks and stuff like that.
04:14:13 <zzo38> Some gopher clients do that.
04:14:28 <ehird> zzo38: I'll be registering gopher:// as a protocol with Mac OS X, so just point it at a file:// instead and all will go swwimingly
04:14:43 <ehird> If you point it at an http:// it'll probably open in Safari every time you start Gophocoa up :P
04:14:48 <ehird> zzo38: What file extension do you think I should use for gopher menus? Something like .gophermenu?
04:14:53 <ehird> I don't have to obey 8.3.
04:15:05 <ehird> And can't think of anything more cutesy than .gophermenu.
04:15:11 <zzo38> I have used .go4 for gopher menus, and I have seen a few others use that too. But you don't have to.
04:15:38 <ehird> Who else does that? If it's common at all I'll adopt it
04:16:16 * ehird decides that the Format menu, including Show Fonts and Show Colors, will be *absolutely* useless unless someone invents rich text Gopher form fields.
04:16:21 * ehird dearly hopes nobody ever does that, and so nukes it
04:16:46 <zzo38> But you might consider using .go4. I have only seen one other people or group using it, other than myself. Other than that I don't know if it is at all common. But I have never heard of any other extensions for gopher menu files, so that is just what I use.
04:17:18 <Sgeo> How do I get cron to stop mailing me?
04:17:52 * ehird attempts to find an application on his system with no help menu in a desperate attempt to justify his laziness in assuming that he is so good at interface design nobody will ever need help
04:18:01 <zzo38> I doublt anyone would invent rich text Gopher form fields, but even if someone does, it is still a completely optional feature, like all extensions to the gopher protocol are.
04:18:17 <ehird> EVEN THE BUILT IN CHESS APPLICATION HAS HELP!!
04:18:41 <zzo38> O, another thing in gopher menus: Type i is a information text displayed on the menu but is not a link to anything.
04:18:59 <ehird> Hmm, some applications just open a web page or whatever
04:19:08 <ehird> I'll just make the help open a page on the gophersite for it, I guess
04:19:24 <Sgeo> ehird, with my (possibly never arriving) SL product, my goal is that users never need to look at the manual. The product will guild them
04:20:05 <ehird> Sgeo: This can work with incredibly minimal, professional and inspired GUI design. It cannot work inside a strange virtual reality where things don't obey normal rules even with such skill.
04:20:19 <ehird> Maybe you should come out and admit that you're too lazy to write a manual like me.
04:20:48 * ehird ditches File -> Open Recent; a full history is way better
04:20:51 <Sgeo> But I will write a manual, or at least try to
04:21:03 <Sgeo> It's just I want to make relying on it unneeded
04:21:07 <Sgeo> I am assuming that users read
04:22:01 <ehird> zzo38: Do you think I should have tabs? Seems rather silly for a Gopher browser.
04:22:37 <zzo38> Have tabs if you want to. You don't have to. Make that decision by yourself.
04:22:48 * oerjan would rather assume that users ignore all text which is not immediately needed while it is being displayed
04:23:20 <Sgeo> oerjan, there's no way for me to make an intuitive interface
04:23:50 <oerjan> but what do i know, i'm not really a programmer :)
04:23:51 <Sgeo> Hold on, let me show you what it has to look like. It's either this, or asking for stuff to be typed in
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04:25:22 <oerjan> well that may be an assumption too. i just thought that once they get desperate because they don't know how to do something, they _might_ read help if it is currently visible on screen.
04:25:43 * ehird decides that Revert to Saved is a useless operation if you can't edit.
04:25:54 <ehird> ...and I'm not planning on making a Gopher website maker any time soon
04:25:59 <oerjan> (not general help, but help on what they are currently desperate about)
04:27:04 <zzo38> You *might* have an editor for the bookmarks file, but that's probably about all you would need.
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04:28:11 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/Ruodp.png
04:28:34 <Sgeo> All screens in my product must look something like that (well, actually, the style in SL is a bit different)
04:28:49 <ehird> zzo38: Bookmark editor is rather simpler, though
04:29:00 <Gregor> Well, unless the buttons actually have to say "B10" etc.
04:29:02 <ehird> "Append one line of very rigid contents" vs "remove one specific line".
04:29:13 <Sgeo> I can't get rid of the Ignore
04:29:40 <zzo38> Yes, bookmark editor would be simple. Just one menu.
04:29:44 <Gregor> OK, that's kind of crummy.
04:30:03 <Sgeo> How am I supposed to design my product to be easy to use without reading if they have to go through this?
04:30:21 <ehird> zzo38: Well, actually, it'd be a dialog with a list of them that you select and two buttons, - and + (+ adds an empty one with the location field focused and you can tab to the title).
04:30:22 <Sgeo> (Although in SL, the Ignore button's smaller)
04:30:31 <ehird> That'd also let you change titles, etc.
04:30:34 <Sgeo> And I think everyone knows what it does by now
04:30:40 <ehird> And also the uber-simple "bookmark this page", of course.
04:31:13 <zzo38> Yes, "bookmark this page" is of course a useful feature to have.
04:31:20 <Sgeo> Oh, and see the order? I can't make, say, B6 not be there
04:31:26 <Sgeo> and leave B7 on stay
04:32:02 <Sgeo> I can make some of them blank, but I can't make it disappear altogether. And even blank ones close out, so I'd have to have it re-open
04:33:25 <zzo38> But, a bookmark editor would basically should have add, remove, edit, move-up, move-down. And then five fields, type, title, selector, host, port. Type can be 1 by default, selector can be blank by default, port can be 70 by default. In most cases, only the hostname would ever have to be typed in. (You can also make the title default to the hostname)
04:34:45 <zzo38> One bookmarks file is good enough.
04:36:08 <ehird> zzo38: All those extra fields can simply be replaced by a URL
04:36:23 <ehird> That'd let you put http:// links in your links-homepage-bookmark-thingy, too.
04:37:03 <zzo38> Yes, that will work too.
04:37:18 <ehird> Sigh, I messed up. This should have been done as an NSDocument app.
04:37:27 <ehird> Delete, rego; thankfully I didn't actually do much.
04:37:51 <zzo38> What does NSDocument app mean, anyways? I really don't know much about Macintosh computers.
04:38:04 <ehird> NSDocument is a part of the system APIs. It's basically, well, a document.
04:38:17 <ehird> An NSDocument application is just an application designed for showing and manipulating new types of NSDocument.
04:38:26 <ehird> So you get things like save, open, undo and the like for free if you make your type a kind of NSDocument.
04:38:43 <ehird> I'm totally new to this too.
04:39:02 <zzo38> Ah, OK. You are new to this too. Well, at least you can learn.
04:40:21 <ehird> Heh, the default about window is fun... "Engineering: Some people / Human Interface Design: Some other people / Testing: Hopefully not nobody / Documentation: Whoever / With special thanks to: Mom"
04:42:04 <oerjan> You'd think they'd put Hopefully not nobody on Documentation too...
04:42:48 <ehird> "Help isn’t available for Gophocoa."
04:42:55 <ehird> In Gopher, no-one can hear you scream.
04:43:24 <zzo38> (Unless you use audio file types)
04:44:43 <oerjan> Gophocoa: The first Gopher client to be a crime against humanity!
04:46:20 <zzo38> How is it a crime against humanity?
04:46:52 <oerjan> something about screams
04:47:16 <ehird> How am I still vaguely awake? I must have been awake 30 hours now.
04:47:56 <Sgeo> ehird, even I don't do that.
04:47:59 <ehird> I'm on the drug of LIFE, baby!
04:48:24 <oerjan> ehird: you know that has a 100% lethality rate, right?
04:49:26 * ehird ponders if he's supposed to rename GophocoaDocument to something sane, like GopherPage.
04:49:41 * ehird ponders further if he's allowed to make subclasses of it, e.g. GopherMenu.
04:49:55 <ehird> Reading the documentation sure would help!
04:49:56 <oerjan> it's hard not to pronounce that last o as a y
04:52:21 <ehird> I'm clearly missing something here.
04:53:02 <ehird> that's a ridiculously tenuous pun.
04:54:40 <ehird> okay, first thing... let's give
04:54:47 <zzo38> I have once made a pinball game where the reels had 152 positions each, and there were 7 reels in the game.
04:54:57 <ehird> okay, I think I need a separate document type
04:54:59 <ehird> for each type I handle
04:55:12 <ehird> except a lot of gopher documents are plain .txt
04:55:21 <ehird> so I'm not sure I should claim I know the right class for .txt...
04:57:11 <ehird> maybe I should distract myself by making a pretty icon :)
04:58:14 <ehird> role: editor/viewer/shell/none
04:58:18 * ehird makes that viewer, just to see
04:58:28 <ehird> Uncaught Exception:
04:58:28 <ehird> Window: target of tracking rect doesnt understand -mouseEntered: or -mouseExited messages
04:58:29 <ehird> The stack backtrace has been logged to the console.
05:00:23 <ehird> way too complex for my current awakeness
05:06:14 <ehird> zzo38: do any pages on zzo38computer gopher have anything fancy other than the simple get-page-back?
05:06:19 <ehird> scripting doesn't count, it's client-side
05:07:01 <zzo38> Yes, some have queries.
05:07:36 <zzo38> Anything with type 7 has query parameters. They are, the weather reports, movie times, phlog journal.
05:08:59 <ehird> hmm i see, i think
05:09:11 <zzo38> They give you weather reports and movie times for your area. The phlog journal has a searching, and also a comment function, too! And there is a calendar on the phlog software.
05:09:13 <ehird> could use that to make a silly gopher-twitter xD
05:09:18 <ehird> I meant the queries themselves
05:09:25 <zzo38> Yes, I gues you could
05:13:25 <zzo38> The IRC client I made has a add-on for Twitter, but it is read-only. Anyone who has a account with Twitter, if you want to, might fix the add-on to do write access to Twitter, too.
05:14:33 <ehird> hmm... how do you use finger as a gopher client, again?
05:15:10 <zzo38> Just give the selector as the parameter and put 70 as the port number. It won't parse menus, but it works for text files.
05:15:39 <zzo38> Using a gopher client to connect to finger works better, just put type 0
05:15:43 <ehird> finger: zzo38computer.cjb.net:70: nodename nor servname provided, or not known
05:15:54 <ehird> [~]$ finger textfile/processor/16x.cpu@zzo38computer.cjb.net
05:15:54 <ehird> [zzo38computer.cjb.net]
05:16:17 <zzo38> You need to give the port number. I'm not sure how to put a port number for finger
05:16:54 <zzo38> If you can't give a port number, then using the finger command to access gopher sites simply won't work.
05:17:20 <zzo38> Did you try: man finger
05:18:05 <zzo38> Some Italian cookies, they don't use man finger, but some of the cookies are called lady finger!
05:18:37 <zzo38> (My grandparents are Italian, so they can know)
05:25:07 * Sgeo decides to poke ehird about why sqlite might not be so good
05:25:30 <ehird> SQLite is fine as long as only one thing will ever, ever want to write to the DB at once.
05:25:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do *you* like the 16X CPU? Do you have a comment of it?
05:26:04 <Sgeo> ehird, if more than one thing tries, is the db broken, or does it just not work due to file locks?
05:26:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, ehird knows about, and has an opinion on, everything computer related.
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08:39:06 <fizzie> You can do sort-of concurrency even with SQLite by splitting the DB into multiple pieces, but that's not really the use case it's designed for.
08:41:12 <fizzie> It has some sort of built-in support for showing multiple files as a single logical database, if I recall correctly.
08:41:20 <fizzie> (And those files have independent locking.)
08:41:28 <augur> ive figured out a little algorithm that, if given a set of sentences with many shared words, and with no word boundaries, will discover those word boundaries solely by statistics.
08:43:24 <fizzie> I think our Morfessor algorithm -- http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/morpho/ -- would actually also sort of partially do that, by accident, given the right sort of parameters.
08:43:41 <augur> fizzie: discover word boundaries?
08:44:17 <fizzie> Well, I work there, so it's "our" theoretically; I don't have much to do with it though.
08:44:53 <augur> its a nice little algorithm i came up with. pretty simple.
08:46:00 <fizzie> Well, I *would*, but I need to be in a bus in something like 10 minutes, so this is not really the time. But if you want to blab it here, I can logread it later. :p
08:46:15 <augur> nah let me know later and ill tell you all about it
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10:40:31 <oklopol> so i hear there was a course in lojban in helsinki uni
10:51:12 <Deewiant> I heard it with my ears as well! What a coincidence
10:53:35 <oklopol> i think i'm number dyslexic or something, if i'm even slightly tired, i have to deduce what "at least as many as" means by picturing a bijection between two sets
10:54:04 <oklopol> i mean i somehow think turning that into an inequation should be trivial :D
10:54:50 <oklopol> also orders of implication are hard, and i have just memorized a few simple rules for them; but that's something everyone else fails at much more
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10:56:18 <oklopol> hello adam_d, are your implications in order
10:59:39 <oklopol> i just realized my pants have a gigantic hole between my legs
11:00:22 <oklopol> i should probably glue them together
11:04:44 <olsner> why would you want to glue your legs together?
11:05:29 <oklopol> no no i don't mean my pants own my ass, i mean there's a hole *in* my pants
11:05:34 <oklopol> admittedly i wasn't being very clear
11:05:56 <oklopol> oh actually yours was about what i was referring to
11:06:14 <oklopol> i'll just blame english for being stupid
11:06:26 <oklopol> (even though it was my error)
11:08:21 <olsner> also, when you have a hole in your pants, do you glue them (the pants) or it (the hole) together?
11:09:30 <oklopol> err right, i didn't have an error
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11:09:34 <oklopol> i meant glue my pants together
11:11:52 <oklopol> Deewiant: it's only a coincidence if it's not true, methinks
11:12:00 <oklopol> are you implying someone lied to me
11:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
11:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
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11:15:14 <oklopol> of course given the starting variable is always S, and the terminals are usually {a, b}, i suppose there might be a small chance
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17:06:13 <oerjan> 03:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
17:06:14 <oerjan> 03:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
17:06:21 <oerjan> underload, oklopol. underload.
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17:18:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: i wonder if there is a reason why the balrog didn't use his fire. if so, it probably involves a horrible pun.
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17:46:25 <oklopol> oerjan: that seems to be something i'm incapable of learning.
17:49:14 <oklopol> that seems to be my internal representation, so it would make sense
17:49:52 <oklopol> then my scientific conclusion is it's because we're finnish.
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20:40:55 <SimonRC> write a Haskell infinite heap implementation that is worse than one I had read not a few hours before
20:41:29 <SimonRC> attempt to apply a functional design pattern (fold) in Java (went rather nicely IMO)
20:41:59 <SimonRC> resisted attempts by my company to make me more managery
20:43:06 <Sgeo> I know that I'd turn down any promotion to management
20:43:42 <SimonRC> from what I have heard, if computer programs were written the way programmers were promoted, there would be no such thing as an OS or a dynamically-shared library
20:44:08 <SimonRC> well, they were still keeping me quite close to the dev side of the job so it wasn't too bad
20:44:21 * oklopol programmed to day for the first time in about a month
20:44:24 <SimonRC> what diturbs me more is the claims that I will want to become one some day
20:44:41 <SimonRC> I thought you lot were creating shit all the time?
20:45:36 <oklopol> there's this big computation & discrete shit branch in our math dep
20:45:51 <SimonRC> all you bloody people that are younger than me and more motivated than me
20:45:54 <oklopol> proving things undecidable sounds like something i could do all my life
20:46:36 <Gregor> oklopol: That life sounds depressing :p
20:47:07 <oklopol> i haven't liked programming for a while now, too great a work/thinking ratio
20:47:46 <oklopol> Gregor: well i might do some algebra too, occasionally!
20:48:16 <oklopol> i wrote a program that calculates determinants in python, because i didn't feel like doing them manually, and using a preexisting prog feels like cheating when it's homework.
20:48:39 <SimonRC> determinants are those things that do everything, right?
20:49:06 <Gregor> Determinants solve all problems.
20:49:18 <Gregor> I had a toothache last week, but it's OK now, I calculated the determinant.
20:49:26 <SimonRC> like, wanna tell if a certain set of vectors can be used to make a coordinate system? stick them all together into a square and find the determinant
20:49:40 <oklopol> more like see whether it's zero
20:50:01 <SimonRC> wanna know if some linear simultaneous equations have a unique solution? Express them as a matrix and find the determinant
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20:50:13 <oklopol> if it's zero, some of the vectors are linearly dependent
20:50:34 <SimonRC> actually those problems are obviously the same thing now I think about it
20:52:19 <Deewiant> If they weren't related finding the determinant wouldn't work :-P
20:52:41 * SimonRC is in the mood for hiding hard problems in evil places
20:52:45 * Sgeo melts at music videos on YouTube that have HQ or HD
20:53:12 <SimonRC> like asking a foreigner to fill in the missing english nouns in this table:
20:54:14 <Gregor> However, the answers are: unclaunt, man-cousin, sex-cousin
20:54:50 <oklopol> based on Gregor's answer, not
20:55:20 <oklopol> right, because a foreigner wouldn't realize they don't exist, but would assume they don't know them
20:55:31 <oklopol> i would assume i don't know them in finnish as well
20:55:34 <SimonRC> or maybe asking for the formulae for area of rectangle, preimeter of rectangle, area of circle, perimeter of circle, area of triangle, perimeter of triangle, area of elipse, perimeter of elipse
20:55:52 <oklopol> because the family relation terms suck, and aren't worth knowing
20:56:19 <SimonRC> (IIRC, the last one can only be expressed as an unsolvable integral)
20:57:13 <oklopol> lengths of curves seem to get unsolvable very easily
20:57:40 <Deewiant> veli sisko sisarus / isä äiti vanhempi / eno/setä täti ??? / ??? ??? serkku/orpana/nepas
20:58:01 <Deewiant> Seems the same ones don't exist in Finnish either :-/
20:58:30 <oklopol> i've never heard "orpana/nepas".
20:58:45 <SimonRC> "Generalising the solution to 3 bodies is left as an exercise to the sudent."
20:58:53 <Deewiant> Mother's/father's side respectively
20:58:53 <oklopol> and i have no idea which is eno and which is set
20:59:04 <Deewiant> Mother's/father's side respectively for them as well
20:59:49 <oklopol> oh, right, i don't have set's, should be pretty easy to remember
21:00:19 <oklopol> i have an enormous amount of enos though
21:00:33 <oklopol> or should i say enough of them
21:00:46 <SimonRC> TAoCP has a ... variety of dificulties of questions in it.
21:02:18 <SimonRC> they range from taking 1 person 1 minute of high-school maths ... to thousands of professional mathematicians on-and off for centuries
21:02:46 <SimonRC> (e.g. he poses the proof of Fermat's last theorem in some editions)
21:03:23 <oklopol> i think it's an example of a problem whose challenge rating had to be lowered
21:03:53 <oklopol> i mean given as an example of such a problem in the book
21:06:03 <oklopol> at least fermat's last theorem is HM45
21:06:12 <SimonRC> oklopol: do you have the edition that smells weird?
21:06:34 <oklopol> i don't really have a traditional sense of smell
21:07:07 <oklopol> doesn't smell like anything, maybe beer?
21:07:23 <oklopol> by non-traditional i mean, well, for instance tuna smells exactly like urine to me
21:07:43 <oklopol> similarly sewage often smells like delicious sausages
21:07:47 <SimonRC> I remember noticing that my edition smelt odd...
21:07:59 <oklopol> and usually things don't smell like anything
21:08:01 <SimonRC> I checked, and it turns out to be printed on acid-free paper
21:09:43 <oklopol> one of the lecture notes, i thought, smelled like beauty, showed (or its equivalent for smelling) it to my gf, turned out it smelled like the dog food under which it had lied for some time
21:09:58 <oklopol> beauty, as in oh my god i could smell this all day
21:10:11 <oklopol> and i don't even like that dog food sort
21:10:27 <oklopol> usually the ones that are supposedly delicious dog snacks really taste like crap
21:10:34 <oklopol> and it's the actual food that's good
21:18:53 <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
21:19:59 <Gregor> `addquote <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
21:20:00 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
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21:20:54 <oklopol> you seem to consider quite a large amount of what i say worth remembering
21:22:47 <oklopol> why is everyone so gay for me :|
21:23:12 <Gregor> Because twinky European nerds turn us on.
21:24:45 <Gregor> Iansus: Your timing is impeccable if and only if you came in here to talk about weird and nonsensical subjects having nothing to do with esoteric programming.
21:25:35 <Iansus> and i'm not here for it bye
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21:27:07 <oklopol> except a girl smiled at me today, when i was talking loudly about integrals, i must be becoming more attractive to females
21:27:26 <oklopol> actually i was more like telling a funny integral story
21:27:46 <Gregor> Sure "she" was, "she" wants you.
21:28:13 <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:28:23 <Gregor> `addquote <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:28:25 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:31:57 <SimonRC> life would be simpler if people were only one gender
21:35:16 <SimonRC> yeah, but that doesn't need two sexes, never mind two genders
21:35:35 <Gregor> SEXUAL reproduction needs (at least) two sexes.
21:35:39 <Gregor> Otherwise it's asexual reproduction.
21:36:05 <Gregor> (Note that individuals can be of multiple sexes, and as said gender and sex aren't necessarily the same)
21:36:45 <bsmntbombdood_> well it's not like anyone says there has to be two genders
21:37:39 <Gregor> <bsmntbombdood_> well it's not like anyone says there has to be two genders <-- I guarantee you somebody has said this :P
21:37:55 <SimonRC> Gregor: surely only one sex is necessary if all gametes are interchangeable?
21:38:47 <Gregor> SimonRC: But then is that sexual reproduction? I guess we need a definition of "sexual reproduction" that isn't Earth-life-specific.
21:39:12 <SimonRC> (in Perelandra, the division of the genders is merely an aspect of a fundamental division in the universe. But then that was written by C.S. Lewis)
21:39:24 <SimonRC> Gregor: well, it does the same recombination of genes
21:39:59 <SimonRC> I think the thing that some single-celled organisms do is counted as sex, even though they don't have sexes
21:40:28 <Gregor> That's called binary fission.
21:40:30 <SimonRC> (Not bacteria. They're more like fileshares.)
21:40:52 <SimonRC> Gregor: no, some single-celled organisms merge then divide
21:41:20 <SimonRC> like our gametes, but they spend most of their lives with only one set of cromosomes
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21:47:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Also Fermat's last used to be "M50" earlier; the H prefix was added since Wiles' proof was very higher-math.
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22:02:28 <Warrigal> I would call it sexual reproduction if there's sexless sex involved.
22:27:15 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> (Not bacteria. They're more like fileshares.) <-- XD
22:32:37 <oklopol> kinda annoying how every time i try to go to sleep, i start thinking about a homework problem and solve it
22:32:54 <SimonRC> oklopol: when does it need to be done by?
22:33:36 <oklopol> i have some 50 problems for next week, first ones need to be done by tuesday
22:35:18 <oklopol> this one was to prove scramble(L) is a context-free lang if L is regular, scramble(L) being the language of all permutations of all words of L
22:36:02 <oklopol> except it becomes trivial once you think in terms of automatons
22:36:20 <oklopol> first tried to get some sorta recursive thing from a regexp
22:36:38 <oklopol> the other one is more involved, probably no use sharing
22:36:58 <oklopol> anyway should probably retry, i'm kinda half-asleep atm anyway
22:37:21 <oklopol> ...or i could watch this episode of scrubs i've seen about a hundred times
22:40:38 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: homework is a great way to get a steady stream of interesting math problems.
22:40:49 <oklopol> ofc if you don't like math problems, they're just a nuisance
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23:24:06 <fizzie> I wonder how much handwaving you'd need to do to prove that you get scramble(L) for a regular language L by taking the right regular grammar for it, and adding a "A -> Ba" rule for each "A -> aB" rule in it. If you can handwave that, it's quite obviously context-free.
23:25:55 <fizzie> (Well, if that indeed gives scramble(L). I just have a vague feeling it would.)
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23:57:29 <oerjan> <fizzie> I wonder how much handwaving you'd need to do to prove that you get scramble(L) for a regular language L by taking the right regular grammar for it, and adding a "A -> Ba" rule for each "A -> aB" rule in it. If you can handwave that, it's quite obviously context-free.
23:58:08 <fizzie> In case that doesn't give scramble(L), do note the disclaimer too.
23:58:09 <oerjan> my intuition is that's false
23:59:36 <oerjan> lessee, what about S -> Ta | empty, T -> Ub, U -> Sc
00:00:17 <oerjan> the scramble is obviously the language with equal number of a's, b's and c's
00:00:40 <oerjan> _but_ that is not regular
00:00:59 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's not supposed to be regular.
00:01:19 <fizzie> You're just supposed to show that scramble(L) is context-free.
00:01:19 <oerjan> but yours is linear, iirc
00:01:38 <fizzie> To get a regular grammar, you need to be left-linear or right-linear.
00:01:48 <fizzie> If you mix both styles, you don't get a necessarily regular language.
00:02:01 <oerjan> anyway your modification then means you have to add a, b, c in sequence, but you can add them either in front or after
00:02:29 <fizzie> That sounds a more likely counter-argument.
00:02:45 <oerjan> now need a counterexample string of that kind
00:03:05 <oerjan> a string with equal no. abc which is not of that kind
00:03:28 <fizzie> So, something which doesn't parse with S -> Ta | aT | empty, T -> Ub | bU, U -> Sc | cS.
00:04:24 <oerjan> you have to add the c last, but then you have nowhere to add b second last
00:05:02 <oerjan> or wait that's inside out
00:05:16 <oerjan> acbbac, reverse argument
00:05:39 <oerjan> heck even anything without a's at the ends
00:05:41 <fizzie> "cab" is enough, right? The three can only start with "S -> Ta" or "S -> aT"; with "S -> Ta", you'd have to add that b before the a; but you can't start with "S -> aT" because that should really start with a.
00:07:06 <fizzie> In other words, you can't get all permutations simply by reordering leaves in the parse tree.
00:07:15 <fizzie> Er, s/leaves/children/
00:07:16 <oerjan> and this shows even S -> Ta | empty, T -> Ub will fail with baab
00:08:25 <fizzie> T -> Sb, you mean? Or something else?
00:10:02 <oerjan> so now i'm wondering about oklopol's supposedly trivial solution :D
00:11:39 <fizzie> I'm wondering about that too; I did try to "think in terms of automatons", but it wasn't at least immediately trivial how to recognize with a nondeterministic pushdown automaton anything that's a permutation of a word recognized by a finite state automaton.
00:16:10 <oerjan> in fact i'm not immediate sure about that abc language...
00:16:19 <oerjan> (just ab seems simple though)
00:17:22 <fizzie> I seem to remember that a^n b^n c^n was used as an example of a non-context-free language.
00:17:40 <oerjan> yes me too, but the scramble _might_ make it easier
00:27:14 <fizzie> Hrm, well, let's look at the a^n b^n c^n proof in the scrambled light. If that "equal number of a's, b's and c's" is context-free, it obeys the context-free pumping lemma with some length "p". We can still look at the a^p b^p c^p string (which is in the language), and that can be written in the s=uvxyz form with the length limits, and so on, and so on, and the pumping will generate an unequal number of letters, which will take that example out of the language.
00:27:55 <AnMaster> Any sufficiently advanced mathematics is indistinguishable from nonsense.
00:28:11 <oerjan> i just realized. the _intersection_ of a regular and a context-free language is context-free, right?
00:28:43 <oerjan> and a^nb^bc^n is the intersection of its scramble with a^k b^l c^m
00:28:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:29:07 <oerjan> so the scramble cannot possibly be context-free
00:29:55 <fizzie> Also from the pumping lemma proof. After all, it's enough to find at least one string in the language that can't be pumped, and in that particular case the a^n b^n c^n string qualifies, since the pumping will create an unequal number of letters in there.
00:30:27 <fizzie> All this makes me wonder even more about oklopol's trivial solution.
00:31:22 <oerjan> poor oklopol. or possibly poor teacher, if (s)he gave an exercise that is false
00:31:56 <fizzie> The exercise might've been "prove whether" instead of "prove that"
00:32:35 <fizzie> There's a related sort of a question in http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/General/comp.theory/2007-01/msg00249.html
00:32:50 <oerjan> oklopol: read above discussion ^
00:33:03 <fizzie> (There's the scramble of a regular language of a two-symbol alphabet that's being proved to be context-free.)
00:34:09 <fizzie> And it is sort of implied that something else happens when there are more symbols.
00:36:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure whether I have that Sipser book it's from. I think I never actually went and got it, even though it was probably mentioned as a possibly-good-to-read book on the theoretical computer science basics course.
00:48:09 -!- ehird has joined.
00:50:47 <ehird> 02:40:31 <oklopol> so i hear there was a course in lojban in helsinki uni
00:50:47 <ehird> 02:41:10 <oklopol> (with my ears)
00:51:42 <ehird> also is it university of helsinki or the helsinki university of technology
00:52:18 <oerjan> ehird: you're awake ALREADY/STILL?
00:52:43 <ehird> I slept for 15 hours, dude
00:53:08 <ehird> Damn that was some high-quality sleep.
00:53:09 <oerjan> i must have misrembered seeing you last time i logged on then
00:53:32 <ehird> ~6:30 am yesterday I slept.
00:53:43 <ehird> My client probably disconnected, as I turned off my computer.
00:53:46 <ehird> (It won't sleep for some reason.)
00:54:32 <ehird> 03:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
00:54:33 <ehird> 03:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
00:55:06 <ehird> 09:06:13 <oerjan> 03:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
00:55:06 <ehird> 09:06:14 <oerjan> 03:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
00:55:06 <ehird> 09:06:21 <oerjan> underload, oklopol. underload.
00:56:02 <ehird> 12:43:42 <SimonRC> from what I have heard, if computer programs were written the way programmers were promoted, there would be no such thing as an OS or a dynamically-shared library
00:56:02 <ehird> those are both good things, but not in the way you mean :P
00:56:37 -!- coppro has joined.
01:00:24 <fizzie> I would guess UH, not HUT; it sounds more something like they'd do.
01:01:32 <ehird> I wonder what it was about
01:01:37 <ehird> I hope something totally unrelated
01:02:10 <ehird> fizzie: like, I'm assuming in lojban means
01:02:15 <ehird> not just about lojban
01:04:50 <fizzie> It's organized by "Lambda ry" (where "ry" is our suffix for "registered organization"), sponsored by the cognitive science department; and the name of the course is "Practical Lojban for Travellers".
01:05:52 <ehird> fizzie: if you travel to lojbania i guess?
01:06:19 <fizzie> Also Lambda ry seems to be originated by atehwa at sange.fi, or something.
01:06:25 <ehird> fizzie: so, UH then?
01:06:28 <oerjan> lojbanania, ruled by the horrible lojunta
01:07:16 <fizzie> oerjan: The esolang mailing list guy, I think.
01:07:31 <fizzie> At least at that time when it was hosted at sange.fi.
01:07:51 <fizzie> I don't really remember the history, but at least "involved with".
01:09:17 <fizzie> "Lambda is a Helsinki University student organisation for students interested in theoretical computer science, mathematics, cognitive science, linguistics, language technology and philosophy, and the grey areas between these subjects. For example, logic, formal languages, computability and programming language theory are all subjects interesting to Lambda. While Lambda was founded largely by computer science theorists, the organisation aims for cross-scientif
01:09:17 <fizzie> ic cooperation across different faculties and departments."
01:09:44 <ehird> the list IS hosted at sange.fi, isn't it
01:09:48 <ehird> and the dormant list
01:10:04 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it technically speaking still is.
01:10:49 <ehird> just nobody posts, not even spambots
01:10:59 <ehird> me and simonrc posted last year... got responses
01:11:04 <ehird> someone should start using it
01:11:21 * oerjan is technically subscribed he thinks
01:11:24 <fizzie> Lambda have five courses; introduction to lambda calculus, introduction to functional programming, the practical Lojban thing, practical Haskell, and formal type theory. Quite a grouping.
01:11:32 <fizzie> I don't remember which address I had subscribed there.
01:12:24 <fizzie> My iki address seems to be there in the archives, and I don't remember unsubscribing, but who knows.
01:12:38 <ehird> only one way to find out
01:12:48 <ehird> time to search my mail to see which list still works
01:13:35 <fizzie> Seems to be a bit of spam there in the archives.
01:13:52 <fizzie> Not very large amounts, but still.
01:15:23 <ehird> fizzie: Checkmate your email!
01:16:16 <fizzie> I don't see anything. It's possible I've been auto-unsubscribidized during some sort of email address breakdown time. It is the shame.
01:16:59 <fizzie> Nothing there either. Though the iki forwarding lags sometimes.
01:17:04 <ehird> sci@esoteric.sange.fi (science), misc@esoteric.sange.fi (offtopic stuff; "All messages to lang@esoteric.sange.fi get propagated to this list.") and lang@esoteric.sange.fi (esolangs!) should still work.
01:17:13 <ehird> List context changed to 'chat' by following command.
01:17:14 <ehird> Unable to generate subscription cookie!
01:17:14 <ehird> Unable to process request due to filesystem error.
01:17:22 <ehird> chat@ no longer exists.
01:17:38 <ehird> fizzie: I said it right after sending.
01:17:46 <ehird> Either the lists are dead, you're not subscribed, or something is lagging.
01:18:18 <fizzie> Wait, now it is there.
01:18:22 <ehird> fizzie: "With the powerful force of an email client and mailing list archives...", July 2008. Somewhere in your email/spam archives?
01:18:33 <ehird> If it's there, there's a good chance you're still subscribed to a working list.
01:18:48 <fizzie> "This actually has a purpose, albeit a minor, inconsequential one."
01:19:04 <ehird> You're subscribed to a working list
01:19:32 <fizzie> There are 11 "Received:" headers; that's quite a lot of hoops to jump through.
01:20:23 <ehird> Three people responded to my in July 08, so there's a good chance they'll go all "rabble rabble, your last message was archeology, this is spam".
01:20:39 <Sgeo> Can I use metamail in a script to automatically download an attachment from a certain person?
01:20:41 <ehird> oerjan: did you receive anything?
01:20:46 <Sgeo> Not asking how, I'm asking "is it possible"
01:22:03 * Sgeo feels dirty inside, for treating what should be text as html, just to prevent the browser from trying to download it and open it in notepad
01:25:00 <oerjan> ehird: when i said i was technically subscribed, i didn't mean i actually received mail
01:25:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:25:44 <ehird> your... spam... folder
01:25:49 <ehird> where... spam... is filtered
01:26:00 <ehird> sure you do, otherwise your inbox would be totally useless
01:26:00 <oerjan> there is not enough that i bother filtering it
01:26:19 <oerjan> it is however filtered by nvg somewhat i guess
01:27:25 <oerjan> but afaik what's filtered does not end up anywhere else
01:27:37 <oerjan> some is only marked with Spam in the subject though
01:29:23 <oerjan> nah no spam folder i haven't discovered yet
01:29:45 <oerjan> (there's one where i once upon a time saved spam manually after complaining about it)
01:32:35 <oerjan> also, by "i didn't mean i actually received mail" i meant that if i am subscribed, it's in some kind of send nothing mode
01:32:52 <oerjan> but i'm not sure if that list is one of those
01:33:15 <ehird> well email to misc@esoteric.sange.fi and find out!
01:33:16 <oerjan> the agora lists are, though
01:33:26 <ehird> you're actually subscribed to them?
01:33:33 <ehird> i don't think they have a don't-email-me mode
01:33:48 <ehird> oerjan: oh, are you not on the new agoranomic.org addresses?
01:33:52 <ehird> you'll be subscribed to yoyo
01:34:03 <ehird> presumably you haven't subscribed to any since you left
01:34:32 <oerjan> i regularly get Subject: agoranomic.org mailing list memberships reminder
01:34:44 <oerjan> on mailman reminder day
01:37:03 <oerjan> hm seems i actually unsubscribed from esolang
01:38:32 <ehird> clarkk is indeed agora's home
01:38:37 <oerjan> i'm also subscribed to yoyo of course, and even receive mail on that i think
01:38:49 <ehird> ah, so you get emails whenever the lists are down?
01:38:56 <ehird> so a month or so ago, sometime last year...
01:39:02 <ehird> a glimpse into the game!
01:39:40 <oerjan> not sure about tue, it doesn't remind me at least
01:39:59 <ehird> that's our other backup list, so even your glimpses are incomplete
01:40:14 * Sgeo has another page of quotes
01:40:17 <ehird> oerjan: so wait, when you left, email just kept rolling into your inbox for years? :D
01:40:17 <oerjan> oh i probably receive those too, i'm just not entirely sure
01:40:27 <Sgeo> Some nsfw material: http://normish.org/sgeo/pullet.htm
01:40:33 <ehird> oerjan: (presumably you're too low-tech to use filters and folders)
01:40:39 <ehird> oerjan: i'm not sure tue reminds, inded
01:40:45 <oerjan> i have folders to save manually to
01:41:05 <ehird> you moved bunches of messages into folders for years?
01:41:17 <oerjan> after i read them, yes
01:41:23 <oerjan> if i don't delete them
01:41:28 <ehird> Sgeo: got bored at like 5, where i realised that all future Aerik quotes would be worthless
01:41:40 <ehird> oerjan: i meant from ag ora
01:41:51 <Sgeo> ehird, there's more than aerik
01:42:00 <oerjan> ehird: for some years yes, not after the last time i left though
01:42:01 <ehird> not worht trawling through teh crap
01:42:12 <Sgeo> I'm in there a few times
01:42:21 <ehird> oerjan: what then, a filter? or did you resubscribe, or just ignore them, or had we moved by then
01:42:27 <oerjan> i _did_ set the non-backup lists to not send me mail then
01:43:05 <ehird> oerjan: so what, did you come back in that ~2000 resurgence or something? i'm not actually sure how long the agoranomic.org lists go back
01:43:15 <ehird> but the registrar just notes you as leaving in 95... or was it 97
01:43:21 <oerjan> sometime like that yes
01:43:39 <ehird> well, you might be listed again later
01:43:44 <ehird> it lists you as disappearing, iirc
01:43:45 <oerjan> i definitely returned somewhere around 2000
01:43:47 <ehird> as opposed to actually leaving in a huff
01:43:58 <ehird> or leaving because of Responsibilities(TM)
01:44:36 <ehird> Oerjan <unknown> 3 Jan 96
01:44:38 <ehird> ok, no reason given
01:44:48 <ehird> Oerjan (Zombie 20 Sep 99 - 25 Dec 99) Apr 96 22 Mar 00
01:44:58 <ehird> oh, and before all that
01:44:58 <ehird> Oerjan Sep 95 Dec 95
01:45:07 <ehird> a Oerjan oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no 15 Jul 00 14 Nov 04
01:45:20 <oerjan> yeah that would be the last time
01:45:33 <ehird> doesn't say when you abandoned iit
01:45:37 <ehird> presumably nearer 2000 than 2004
01:46:25 <oerjan> that unknown should be some time in autumn 93
01:46:28 <ehird> well, the other leavings are three months, less than one year and 3 years
01:46:40 <ehird> all of them are unknown apart from the a
01:46:47 <ehird> i guess we didn't record them in 93
01:47:02 <ehird> (leavings = how long you stayed before leaving)
01:47:12 <ehird> although the 3 years is actually 3 months
01:48:00 <ehird> oerjan: so in conclusion, apart from the 2000-2004, you played the gamme for three months, less than one year and 3 months
01:48:06 <ehird> unless the former means inactivated
01:48:12 <ehird> and the latter is deregistrated
01:48:19 <ehird> because the times are quite short
01:48:22 -!- madbrain has joined.
01:48:27 <ehird> that format is oooooooold
01:48:38 <ehird> and without labelling of the columns
01:48:44 <madbrain> yay wrote an interpreter for my newest obfuscated language in Lua
01:48:53 <ehird> i'm trying to decipher the report, and failing
01:48:54 <madbrain> ( http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar )
01:49:10 <ehird> we started recording registrations in 94
01:49:24 <ehird> first deregistration 12 sep 94, and no others til 1995
01:49:27 <ehird> where there's a lot
01:49:29 <oerjan> oh wait that unknown cannot be 93 of course, since there's another period before it
01:49:32 <madbrain> (the interpreter can run in http://www.lua.org/cgi-bin/demo )
01:50:03 <oerjan> there's definitely a period earlier than 95 too, since i registered in 93
01:50:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:50:19 <ehird> oerjan: basically what i'm saying is, yoyo is quite accurate, because you never stayed more than three months or so, at least in 95 or earlier
01:50:34 <ehird> and the 2000-2004 thing I guessed didn't actually last that long, based on available statistics
01:50:48 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:51:11 <ehird> Sgeo: that quotes file is really crap
01:51:26 <Sgeo> ehird, the quotes, or something else?
01:52:50 <oerjan> ehird: you are misreading the one with zombie in it
01:53:01 <ehird> ok, apart from that one
01:53:19 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:53:19 <ehird> oerjan: if you left in a huff in the non-abandoned ones, i theorise that you are like a long-term wooble.
01:53:28 <ehird> well, long-term in the gaps between registrations, not so much in the staying.
01:53:34 <ehird> also, more like goethe
01:53:39 <zzo38> For some reason, the A22i assembler supports roman numerals
01:53:49 <ehird> zzo38: Probably a GNU project.
01:55:26 <oerjan> i don't recall ever leaving in a huff :D
01:55:54 <oerjan> not that i recall very much clearly at all
01:56:07 <zzo38> However, this one isn't a GNU project.
01:56:17 <ehird> oerjan: they had cantus cygnei and writ of fages back then yes?
01:56:26 <zzo38> (A22i is for assembling codes for ARM machines)
01:56:38 <zzo38> (Specifically, the GBA/NDS)
01:57:04 <ehird> oerjan: me/ais523/comex scammed that based on the fact that writ of fages let you come back without waiting 30 days :) (but the scam failed in other ways)
01:57:04 <oerjan> ehird: the ones that ended around christmas may simply have been because my parents didn't have internet access at the time
01:57:23 <ehird> oerjan: wouldn't that be abandoning? or would you have deregistered beforehand
01:57:36 <oerjan> i guess it would be abandoning
01:57:38 <ehird> how can you expire multiple times
01:57:43 <ehird> that doesn't even make no sense
01:57:52 <ehird> oerjan: abandoning = don't post for a long time
01:57:54 <ehird> without deregistering
01:58:00 <oerjan> is expire a technical term?
01:58:03 <ehird> then someone deregisters you
01:58:10 <ehird> also, a human expiring generally means
01:58:18 <ehird> in fact by generally i mean always
01:58:21 <oerjan> and also, this may have been in the period before Hold
01:58:44 <ehird> then it'd have just been deregistering after not posting
01:59:20 <oerjan> in fact i find the two ending in Dec 95 and Jan 96 suspicious, that there are two rather than just one
01:59:49 <ehird> complain! oh wait you might have a seizure even typing that address :D
02:00:10 <oerjan> Jan 96 i went to the US
02:00:26 <ehird> maybe it was a scam involving deregistering.
02:00:28 <oerjan> so it is conceivable i abandoned twice
02:00:33 <ehird> did they have the 30 day cooldown period thten?
02:01:11 <ehird> after deregistering, you can't register for 30 days
02:02:47 <oerjan> cannot remember if we ever had that
02:02:54 <oerjan> certainly not all the time
02:03:53 <oerjan> also, it is quite possible that i only deregistered properly once, may have been in 2002-2004
02:04:03 <oerjan> all the rest being abandons
02:04:32 <ehird> they would say "a" then
02:04:38 <ehird> oerjan: and the 2004 one is abandoning
02:04:41 <ehird> so TOTALLY WRONG BITCH
02:04:59 <oerjan> i _thought_ i deregistered properly then
02:05:12 <oerjan> maybe it was the time before
02:05:13 <FireFly> What are you talking about anyway?
02:06:22 <ehird> It's tierced palewise sable, argent, and sable, charged with a quill and an axe in saltire, proper, and in the chief a capital letter A, gules.
02:06:27 <ehird> No, wait, it's http://agoranomic.org/.
02:06:54 <ehird> (Unfortunately, we no longer have that coat of arms. Stupid modernists.)
02:07:13 <FireFly> Hmm, I've read a bit about nomic, sounds like fun
02:07:29 <ehird> FireFly: Yes. The game sucks a bit now, unfortunately, rule-wise.
02:07:48 <ehird> It's been going since before I was born (since 1993), so it'll probably straighten out shortly.
02:08:00 <oerjan> hm indeed i abandoned in 2004, i have kept the registrar's messages to that effect
02:08:15 <ehird> Unless people actually like the current ruleset; polling seems to suggest no
02:08:23 <ehird> oerjan: what, as a trophy? :P
02:09:00 <ehird> HA! Fuck you all! I won't even dignify you with a deregistration!
02:09:08 <oerjan> at that time i was only reading email about once a month, i think
02:10:40 <oerjan> <ehird> It's been going since before I was born (since 1993) <-- that _is_ a bit awesome :D
02:11:10 <ehird> (Uh, Agora that is, not me.)
02:12:00 <ehird> Michael posted recently, iirc.
02:12:07 <ehird> (As in, months ago. Maybe even laate last year.)
02:12:28 <ehird> It was supporting singular they over e, iirc, and it was a few posts
02:13:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
02:15:12 <oerjan> singular they? have they _no_ sense of tradition?
02:17:38 <coppro> ehird: you should join the bobzooping contract
02:17:55 <ehird> coppro: no, I don't want to support BobTHJ's site
02:18:06 <ehird> oerjan: Shakespeare, dude
02:18:10 <ehird> oerjan: it used to be like that, anyway
02:18:15 <ehird> e shimmied in to replace they later on
02:18:20 <coppro> ehird: no, it's a contract that allows zooping support of NoVs
02:18:22 <ehird> the original ruleset uses "they"
02:18:38 <coppro> especially those against Bob
02:20:17 <ehird> interesting fact: http://www.stevey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50-years-exploration-huge.jpg, if scaled so that it is vertically 1200 pixels high, would cover roughly 1.41449296600234 1920x1200 displays horizontatlly
02:21:04 <ehird> which is a shame, because it'd look amazing on 2 or 3 24" displays
02:22:09 <coppro> there's also a whole in it
02:23:06 <coppro> some of the lines are cut off for the Pioneers/Voyagers
02:23:17 <coppro> they resume on the other side of the box
02:23:20 <ehird> those are separate missions or something it hink
02:23:57 <ehird> whatever, if I had two or three monitors (I guess I'll want them when I have the bigger room, bigger desk) i'd ask for a non-blanked vevrsion
02:24:10 <ehird> i love how the bits around earth are so psychedelic
02:24:18 <ehird> well 70s psychedelia sort of thing
02:24:23 <ehird> coppro: also, it's a jpg
02:24:32 <ehird> but I'm sure something with so much effort put into it has a master copy.
02:24:49 <ehird> "This is an image from a special edition national geographic magazine."
02:25:02 <ehird> coppro: so I just need a high-quality scanner
02:25:30 <ehird> coppro: boxes explained
02:25:30 <ehird> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HRnKzjq-c5g/SW2tmiRqzVI/AAAAAAAAAUY/UpAVj64ybfI/s1600/Space.jpg
02:25:36 <ehird> the boring explanatory text was omitted
02:26:02 <ehird> the damage was repaired in other areas
02:26:05 <ehird> see e.g. the bottom ones
02:26:09 <ehird> but not that one, presumably a mistake
02:27:22 <coppro> the bottom gradient isn't cut off by the text
02:28:19 <ehird> coppro: yes, the damage was patched up there, prersumably
02:28:30 <ehird> but not the other one
02:28:51 <coppro> but w/e, it's not important
02:28:59 <coppro> what about the contract?
02:31:15 <fizzie> Ooh, that's a pretty picture. It doesn't really fit the aspect ratio of my desktop either, though. (3861x1706 vs. approximately 4544x1200.)
02:32:06 <fizzie> (And I never have that desktop visible.)
02:33:43 <ehird> fizzie: I resized it to (something)x1050 and then cropped all the right side off
02:34:04 <ehird> I hate how black backgroundd obscure shadows on them
02:34:18 <ehird> When shadows poke out other places, it looks weirdly inconsistent
02:34:24 <ehird> Also, it's quite busy to be a background.
02:34:37 <ehird> Also, the sun makes my apple logo bronze.
02:35:29 <ehird> Happily, though, there's no white-line-at-the-bottom in my cropped version.
02:35:33 <ehird> As in, at the right side.
02:35:44 <ehird> Having that at the very edge would look awkward.
02:36:50 <ehird> "It's from a National Geographic article, here as a draggable tile map;
02:36:50 <ehird> http://books.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day/index
02:36:50 <ehird> Here's the format of the individual tiles,
02:36:50 <ehird> http://books.nationalgeographic.com/.../TileGroup0/4-4-2.jpg
02:36:51 <ehird> And an XML of the details,
02:36:51 <ehird> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/map/.../ImageProperties.xml
02:36:52 <ehird> If anyone cares to piece it together."
02:37:10 <ehird> Quick, slave — I mean fizzie —!
02:37:32 <ehird> http://books.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day/2008/10/solar_system/TileGroup0/4-4-2.jpg Uurgh, the compression artefacts.
02:38:36 <ehird> "I Don't Code in my Free Time - Ted Dziuba"
02:38:44 <ehird> *Oh, so THAT'S why he's an idiot and a douchebag!
02:39:07 <ehird> "There was only once when I actually enjoyed it, though. I was in college, and shared a common wall with a girl from Spain who was painfully unaware that her computer had a volume control knob. She would stay up late on AOL instant messenger, and I couldn't sleep. So, I rigged up a Python script to play AOL instant messenger sounds randomly every 5 to 10 seconds,"
02:39:16 <ehird> TALKING TO PEOPLE: RATED IMPOSSIBLE
02:50:55 <Sgeo> Is this guy complaining about the NAME of Twisted?
02:57:12 <zzo38> { F MOV WAA RAA. BRNZ }.
02:59:33 * oerjan notices the line between assembly and internet slang getting thinner there
03:01:32 <zzo38> Do you have a complete proper URL of the ImageProperties.xml?
03:02:23 <madbrain> fixed point functions are scary
03:04:55 <madbrain> actually I dunno if what I'm playing with are fixed point functions but as far as I can tell they are
03:05:41 <fizzie> Hrm; I've actually been combining tile-maps quite a lot, but I can't really be bothered with this particular one. It's 05am here already, so g'night and such.
03:06:54 <zzo38> madbrain: Do you ever use the #libregamewiki channel on freenode? (I have never even heard of it until now, actually, but anyways...)
03:07:42 <zzo38> O. Well, are you on that wiki?
03:08:58 <zzo38> A IRC WHOIS command and a Google search brought me to http://libregamewiki.org/List_of_developers so I was a bit curious about that
03:10:07 <madbrain> strange, it does have my name for some reason, probably compiled from some idie game
03:11:05 <madbrain> aha, probably from my brother's pygame game
03:11:15 <Gregor> Now there's a sufficiently unusual name that you can probably google it without any ambiguity.
03:11:31 <zzo38> I searched for "Hubert Lamontagne"
03:11:49 <oerjan> Gregor: i'm not sure it's that unusual in french?
03:12:16 <madbrain> gregor: well, I do have an unusual first name yes, although I'm not the only one named hubert lamontagne amazingly
03:12:18 <Gregor> Is Hubert a French name?
03:12:46 <Gregor> Huh. Doesn't scream "French" to me. Not that I know names.
03:12:59 <madbrain> like the hubert lamontagne on facebook? (1st hit) not me
03:13:14 <Gregor> There are several Gregor Richards' on Facebook.
03:13:24 <Gregor> Although there's only one on google.
03:14:45 <Gregor> There's an association between me and the company I worked for that shall not be named :(
03:16:11 <Gregor> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/ There's also an astoundingly terrible picture of me giving a presentation :P
03:16:38 <oerjan> don't worry, in a few years _everyone_ will have something embarassing about on the web and so it won't matter any more >:)
03:17:05 <Gregor> Neither are that embarrassing.
03:17:09 <Gregor> I just hated that company a lot.
03:17:15 <oerjan> in fact this will be so ubiquitous that people who don't have it will be strongly mistrusted as having something to hide
03:19:04 <oerjan> "What, there are no nude pictures of you on the internet?" Do you have some ugly scar or something?"
03:19:34 <Gregor> There are no nude pictures of me on the webernets :P
03:20:09 <Gregor> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548571/ Oh look, there's a slightly-less-terrible picture of me giving the same talk. Also my advisor.
03:21:02 <ehird> Whoa, people talked!
03:21:27 <oerjan> Gregor: well me neither, but just you wait a few years!
03:22:44 * oerjan hadn't quite got the idea the Gregor wore hats _indoors_
03:22:46 <ehird> Gregor: your clothing = awesome
03:23:16 <Gregor> I wear hats (and also shirts and ties) in all social situations.
03:23:29 <ehird> Also underwear, etc.
03:23:31 <oerjan> i shall now find some mind bleach to remove that tie.
03:23:40 <ehird> Is it pink and green? I think so.
03:23:50 <ehird> Gregor: do any of your hats ever fall off
03:24:21 <Gregor> It has a pattern, but the pattern is pink and pink.
03:24:29 <Gregor> And no, my hats never fall off. I have hats that fit.
03:24:56 <ehird> wait, social situations, does that include sex?
03:25:02 <ehird> share some of dat mind bleach
03:25:02 <Gregor> Unless my memory fails me, no hat has ever fallen off my head.
03:25:45 <oerjan> i'm afraid i'm all out
03:25:50 <Gregor> oerjan: http://codu.org/hats/PinkPaisleyFedora-med.jpg
03:25:55 <pikhq> Gregor: "That shall not be named"?
03:25:56 <ehird> I'll ccheck the blackm arket
03:26:04 <Gregor> pikhq: I wurrrrve Intel.
03:26:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I was quite happy to work at Intel.
03:26:14 <Gregor> It's a different company.
03:26:22 <pikhq> Okay, so a company that merits hating.
03:26:35 <Gregor> You almost certainly haven't heard of it.
03:31:13 <ehird> Gregor: Is it Plof Enterprises, who you stole Plof from
03:31:20 <ehird> YOU HAVEN'T DENIED IT
03:31:35 <Gregor> Damn, I'm not fast enough at denying things.
03:32:04 <oerjan> we shall have to register didgregorrichardsstealploffromplofenterprises.com now
03:34:34 <ehird> isgregorrichardssecretlyglennbeck.com
03:35:09 <Gregor> didgregorrichardsrapeandmurderglennbeckin1990.com
03:35:18 <ehird> didayounggirlrapeandmurdergregorrichardsin1990.com
03:35:35 <ehird> Pretty sure you're GAY enough for it to happen. Wearing pink ties and all.
03:35:53 <Gregor> And big pink triangles :P
03:36:02 <ehird> You're basically dead.
03:36:07 <ehird> EVEN NOW, AS A ZOMBIE
03:36:14 <Gregor> Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains.
03:36:26 <Sgeo> Why does XChat think I hit /clear in this channel?
03:37:00 <ehird> Because you accidentally yourself at night.
03:37:08 <zzo38> I don't know how XChat works, maybe read the document first
03:37:20 <zzo38> Maybe you accidentally slipped and pushed the wrong key
03:39:02 <zzo38> DEF INC [P ADD %1 C1] OW [P MOV %1 %1 #1].
03:39:39 <ehird> I read P...OW as POW
03:39:50 <ehird> What.Is.The.World.Coming.To
03:40:55 <zzo38> I don't know what is the world coming to?
03:41:31 <ehird> I HATE THIS KEYBOARD
03:41:34 <zzo38> Do you understand what this code even means? Or, the other code from before? Let's see?
03:41:39 <zzo38> What keyboard are you using?
03:42:01 <ehird> I could make a good guess at what it's doing. And a Cherry scissor-switch (like on laptops) one. "Stream XT".
03:42:26 <zzo38> O. OK, that's what keyboard.
03:42:59 <ehird> Going to replace it with either an FKBN87MC/NPEK or an FKBN87M/EB, both of which have among their features inscrutable names and extreme priceyness, and among the former's features is being out of stock.
03:43:21 <ehird> But not until I get the new desk, which is not until we move, so yeah. Stuck with this thing.
03:44:08 <zzo38> Now let's see if you can try to figure out these asm codes, even just by guessing
03:44:32 <zzo38> I do have a document about it, but first try to figure out without document. OK
03:44:43 <ehird> [P ...] means "put ... before this instruction, and replace this P thingy with the contents of %1, which you will replace with a free register".
03:45:52 <ehird> Well, let me figure out the rest first.
03:46:05 <zzo38> I can tell you a hint, this line is a macro definition.
03:46:30 <ehird> MOV X Y Z is... um, MOV instructions usually only have two arguments.
03:46:44 <ehird> Maybe #1 isn't a main argument.
03:46:47 <ehird> Or an argument at all.
03:47:36 <zzo38> #1 is an immediate argument, maybe you can try to figure it out by the context.
03:47:55 <ehird> Well, okay, INC is clearly a macro to increment something, so %1 must be the number 1.
03:48:05 <zzo38> No. %1 is not the number 1
03:48:08 <ehird> C1 is the number 1.
03:48:12 <ehird> %1 is the first macro argument.
03:48:15 <ehird> INC x becomes INC x C1
03:48:20 <zzo38> Yes. C1 is the number 1 and %1 is the first macro argument, that is correct.
03:48:54 <ehird> It's not a two-argument case, and inc is done by the ADD %1 C1 instruction... so it's not part of the actual macro expansion...
03:50:04 <zzo38> Hint: Not all machine codes are possible...
03:50:17 <zzo38> ehird: You are sort of correct
03:50:24 <ehird> o_O. So... if you cannot expand to ADD %1 C1,
03:50:32 <ehird> expand to MOV {first arg} {first arg} #1
03:50:32 <zzo38> As in, the macro expansion will never contain "OW"
03:50:47 <ehird> So then I guess I have to figure out how MOV works.
03:50:48 <zzo38> Can you figure out what "OW" stands for?
03:51:07 <ehird> zzo38: MOV X Y Z = X = Y+Z
03:51:16 <ehird> MOV is an odd name for that; I'd call it ADDTO
03:51:25 <ehird> zzo38: Or is it an artefact of the long instructions
03:51:31 <ehird> i.e., you can add that to any instruction
03:51:35 <ehird> and it's taking advance of MOV being X=Y
03:51:38 <zzo38> It has to do with how immediate values are added on to instructions.
03:51:48 <ehird> Why would ADD %1 C1 ever be inexpressable?
03:52:27 <zzo38> Because C1 is a special register. %1 might not be a valid special register in all cases. (Some registers are valid both as normal and special)
03:52:44 <zzo38> Either both registers have to be special or neither.
03:53:10 <ehird> C1 *is* an odd name for it; when I thought of "constant", I thought pointer-to-1.
03:53:17 <zzo38> Now let's see if you can figure out this other code: { F MOV WAA RAA. BRNZ }.
03:53:22 <ehird> Or are there only a few?
03:53:28 <zzo38> No, C34567 doesn't work. Only C0 and C1 are available.
03:53:34 <ehird> zzo38: Zombies are a HOAX>
03:53:50 <Sgeo> .........GTK+ actually has its own programming language?
03:54:03 <Sgeo> http://live.gnome.org/Vala
03:54:10 <ehird> First of all, that's a GObject programming language.
03:54:18 <ehird> Second of all, Vala is unofficial.
03:54:25 <ehird> It is, however, nice.
03:54:39 <ehird> Well, it IS official.
03:54:46 <ehird> But no official GNOME applications uses it, as far as I know.
03:55:39 <zzo38> (At first, C34567 reminded me a bit of mahjong hands)
03:55:41 <Sgeo> Huh. Qt is finally freely available to proprietary programs?
03:55:46 * Sgeo is reading wikivs.com
03:56:06 <ehird> WikiVS is a bunch of crap./
03:56:27 <ehird> (Heh; "Laser Mouse vs Optical Mouse" — WHY is this even a page? Laser mice are an objective improvement on optical mice.)
03:57:05 <ehird> "Qt looks more native than GTK+ on Windows and Mac platforms. This is because Qt tries to use native widgets whenever possible. Even so, neither Qt nor GTK+ will look and feel completely native on Windows or Mac."
03:57:13 <ehird> Sgeo: these pages are written by idiotic non-experts
03:57:23 <zzo38> ehird: Did you figure out this code? It has nothing with Zombies! (I think...)
03:57:30 <ehird> They clearly haven't done the meagre research required, for instance, to realise that GTK+ is horrifically non-native on OS X.
03:57:39 <ehird> zzo38: "WAA RAA. BRNZ" -> "Waa raa! Brains."
03:57:48 <ehird> So I made a HOAX pun.
03:58:05 <Sgeo> ehird, technically, what was written (that you quotes) is true
03:58:07 <ehird> zzo38: Are the {...} meaningful?
03:58:11 <zzo38> Ya, it is just a pun a joke. But that is not anything about the purpose of the code.
03:58:15 <ehird> Sgeo: That is false.
03:58:16 <zzo38> The { } are meaningful
03:58:20 <ehird> GTK looks perfectly native on Windows.
03:58:42 <ehird> Sgeo: Anyway, it may be *technically* true, but it's misleading.
03:58:58 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:59:12 -!- ehird has joined.
03:59:57 <zzo38> I put random page on wiki VS and found "Copyfree vs Copyleft" the first time.
04:00:16 <ehird> Copyfree isn't even a word!
04:00:43 <ehird> "Coca-Cola is the original cola, while there isn't a huge difference in taste, Pepsi mirrored their cola after Coke's, being just different enough in taste to not actually be the same drink."
04:00:51 <ehird> Are you serious, Pepsi tastes nothing like Coca-Cola
04:00:53 <zzo38> I happen to like GPL however.
04:01:18 <zzo38> If you don't like GPL, you don't have to use it for your programs
04:01:46 <ehird> zzo38: Yes, but I have to deal with the effects of other people using GPL without in-depth reasoning on it, which I think would result in a lot fewer GPL libraries and programs.
04:02:03 <ehird> Anyway, opposing it can lead to less people using it, so nothing wrong with that.
04:02:24 * Sgeo sees how GPL libraries are bad, but GPL programs?
04:03:03 <ehird> Generally I avoid doing so.
04:04:05 <Gregor> You know what I wurve more than distro wars? License wars!
04:04:21 <ehird> Nobody should express any opinions! Rabble rabble!
04:05:03 <oerjan> YES! Opinions are evil!
04:05:22 <ehird> Especially wrong ones!
04:05:27 <ehird> People with strong opinions should die!
04:05:35 <oerjan> No right ones are even worse!
04:08:13 <zzo38> I do even maintain a fork of a GPL project. I don't have a problem to modify it.
04:08:42 <zzo38> And there is another bonus in this specific case, that the software even works, too.
04:18:01 <zzo38> But please, try the code more better this time, without Zombies, try to figure out if you can make any better guess as to what the letters and punctuations stand for, and stuff.
04:22:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:31:46 <ehird> Well that problem solved itself
04:36:59 <oerjan> it looked like you were dissing zzo there
04:37:17 <ehird> no, see the line immediately before
04:37:26 <ehird> said while I was away
04:38:59 <ehird> oerjan is PMSing! wait, no.
04:39:31 <oerjan> actually i'm in a good mood lately
04:39:44 <ehird> a very whatever mood
04:43:01 <ehird> wuteva polish may do, polish it, or i'll polish it for you
04:43:22 <ehird> ALSO: Could this poem be about penises? EXPERTS ARE UNDECIDED.
04:43:46 <oerjan> the experts are still busy testing the theory
04:44:18 <ehird> yes. with their penises, you see.
04:45:12 <Sgeo> ehird, is http://linuxcommand.gds.tuwien.ac.at/learning_the_shell.php a good tutorial? (Not for me, for someone on normish)
04:46:11 <ehird> The introduction is not objectionable. Normish is jury-rigged quite hackishly, in my opinion, so it probably isn't the best place to learn command line stuff.
04:47:14 <madbrain> brainfuck is so hard to interpret o_@
04:47:50 <madbrain> well, it is not when you're not using a functional language from vulcan :D
04:47:53 <Sgeo> Well, if madbrain means "at a glance"
04:48:02 <ehird> madbrain: it is not hard even then.
04:48:06 <ehird> Sgeo: he is still wrong.
04:50:22 <madbrain> Like, this is my increment operator:
04:50:39 <madbrain> (&(&<,&$<>,&(>,)(<,)>>,&<>,$$<>,&(>,)<,&<,>>,),$<,,)
04:50:59 <ehird> OK, that is quite hard.
04:51:05 <ehird> But that just means that language is hard, not BF. :P
04:51:07 <madbrain> There's probably a syntax error in there somewhere so it'll probably never work
04:52:21 <madbrain> I'm doing stuff like extending integers with an infinite series of 1s and 0s so that it doesn't go into an infinite loop if you overflow
04:53:56 <oerjan> is this that single variable functional language?
04:54:55 * Sgeo still hasn't proven to himself or anyone else that he can interpret loops
04:54:59 <madbrain> it took me 2 tries to write a program that repeats the input but terminates on 0 byte
04:57:50 <madbrain> A task that you can do like this is brainfuck: ,[.,]
04:59:42 <madbrain> ,[.,] in brainfuck will repeat the input characters until you give it a 0 byte
05:12:22 <madbrain> woot, brainfuck operators are regrouped in an easy binary way
05:24:46 <ehird> everyone knows what ,[.,] will do
05:24:57 <ehird> also, untrue; in the most common variant, an EOF translates into 0
05:31:21 <ehird> LAP-TOP: smaller and lighter than the average secretary
05:31:21 <ehird> PORTABLE: smaller and lighter than the average refrigerator
05:31:22 <ehird> TRANSPORTABLE: neither chained to a wall nor attached to an alarm
05:31:22 <ehird> — http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tasteless.jokes/msg/fc80e8216bf3babe?dmode=source&pli=1
05:31:57 <ehird> COPY-PROTECTED: (1) a clever method of preventing incompetent
05:31:57 <ehird> pirates from STEALING software and legitimate customers from
05:31:58 <ehird> USING it. (2) a means of distinguishing honest users from
05:31:58 <ehird> thieves by preventing larceny by the former but not the latter.
05:32:02 <ehird> you know, this is from 1994.
05:32:10 <ehird> WINDOWS: a method of dividing a computer screen into two or more
05:32:10 <ehird> unusably tiny portions
05:32:19 <ehird> Sometimes spot on, sometimes spot... off.
05:55:17 <ehird> ( ) Do Not Delete Message
05:55:22 <ehird> (X) Delete Message"
05:55:30 <ehird> after clicking "Delete" in V-Bulletin
06:04:20 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=average+size
06:04:33 <ehird> Average size = The mean of all countries population = 6.68 billion people.
06:04:48 <ehird> Wait, what? Protip: It takes account for every human who has ever lived.
06:04:58 <ehird> No wait, it doesn't.
06:05:02 <ehird> Aw, it's far more boring.
06:05:12 <ehird> "Mean of total people living 2006-2009", basically.
06:05:17 <ehird> But that's average size, if you ask W|A.
06:31:39 <ehird> http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/killers.html
06:31:50 <ehird> i hope it embeds quicktime instead of opens it
06:31:57 <ehird> oklopol: mbrogning
06:33:10 <oklopol> about the scramble thing, i left out a very important thing: there are just two characters, a and b, and i realized my solution from last night doesn't work :P
06:33:45 <ehird> [NEW] Use HTML5 <video> element instead of QuickTime plugin to view H.264 YouTube content on Safari 4. <video> plays better with HTML in general, respecting things like CSS's z-index. (Andreas Fuchs)
06:33:47 <ehird> it does it DOES yay
06:34:11 <ehird> i am so happy i could basically... turn into a mountain
06:34:14 <oklopol> the problem is i'd have to put stuff back, basically i'd need two stacks... ;)
06:34:22 * Sgeo wishes YouTube would use Ogg
06:34:22 <ehird> two stacks... ;) ey
06:34:28 <ehird> Sgeo: ogg is a container.
06:34:47 <ehird> your line, apart from not expressing your intended sentiment,
06:34:51 <ehird> betrays your ignorance of video codecs in general
06:35:03 <ehird> and thus shows that you wouldn't know why using theora is a terrible, terrible idea
06:35:25 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4
06:35:26 <oklopol> i don't think the language that has to count the amounts of three characters is at all context-free, so the set of characters must be {a,b}
06:37:47 <ehird> hahaha youtube videos now show as quicktime embds
06:38:02 <ehird> I CAN JUMP TO ANY TIME AND IT WORKS
06:38:17 <ehird> well ok, apart from times not yet loaded, but that never works wiht youtube anyway
06:40:11 <oklopol> oerjan, fizzie: in my defense, usually my tired solutions are correct, and the other answers to the other questions still are :P
06:42:39 * oerjan went for a walk and saw a flock of deer (sorry no picture)
06:42:55 * ehird erects anti-swatting forcefield around himself
06:43:51 <madbrain> I wonder if these infinite integers will work or if they will generate an infinite loop
06:44:02 * oklopol came up with another way to solve the problem with a turing complete system!
06:44:26 <oklopol> fizzie's thing plus AB -> BA!
06:45:08 <oerjan> that _might_ be just context-sensitive, actually
06:45:36 <oklopol> anyway actually i think solved the actual problem
06:45:45 <oklopol> did you check the forum, is it supposed to be trivial?
06:46:01 <oklopol> because the one i have now is a rather large construction
06:46:24 <oklopol> i thought someone linked a forum with the answer to the {a, b} case thing
06:47:22 <oerjan> oklopol: er you realize AB -> BA means you don't even need fizzie's thing, right?
06:47:37 <oerjan> um fizzie gave a link yes, don't know if it was to a forum
06:47:38 <oklopol> AB -> BA is not context-free
06:47:49 <oklopol> well i don't know where i got the forum idea
06:47:53 <oerjan> you suggested it yourself
06:48:08 <oklopol> i didn't suggest it, it was a "joke"
06:48:19 <oklopol> " oklopol came up with another way to solve the problem with a turing complete system!"
06:48:38 <oklopol> anyway i guess your point is still valid
06:49:28 <oerjan> <oklopol> i don't think the language that has to count the amounts of three characters is at all context-free
06:49:43 <oerjan> basically what we proved (in two different ways)
06:51:16 <oklopol> i didn't actually assume anyone would start trying to solve it, because no solver was present, so i guess i was a bit vague
06:52:32 <oerjan> fizzie used the pumping lemma, i used intersection with a*b*c* to get a^n b^n c^n
06:52:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:52:58 <oerjan> of course you need the pumping lemma again to show that isn't CF
06:56:16 <oerjan> now your AB -> BA point does show that the scramble of any regular language is context-free, i think
06:56:24 <oerjan> or of any context-free, even
06:59:35 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:02:31 <madbrain> my brainfuck interpreter failed
07:07:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:07:57 -!- oklopol has joined.
07:08:51 <oklopol> oerjan: context-sensitive doesn't let variables switch places, you can just *look* at the context
07:11:26 <oklopol> anyway cs is the stuff you can solve with O(n) space, AB -> BA wouldn't require much space, so not surprising there's an equivalent system that allows dat
07:14:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noncontracting_grammar
07:18:21 <oklopol> ah yeah i've heard of that
07:24:01 <oerjan> madbrain: i suggest aggressive commenting and unit testing
07:25:30 <ehird> "iPhone and iPod models have continued to put pressure on worldwide supplies of NAND flash memory, soaking up enough of the industry capacity that demand now exceeds supply."
07:27:07 <oerjan> madbrain: i am not joking mind you
07:27:25 <oerjan> you can always strip it out before publication
07:28:22 <oerjan> i am pretty sure that's how i wrote my unlambda in unlambda interpreter
07:29:23 <ehird> you can't unit test and comment if the language is anal enough
07:29:27 <ehird> (no way to do comments → can't run)
07:29:52 <ehird> so better perl -pe 's/^\s*#.*//' :P
07:30:15 <oerjan> ehird: for unlambda in intercal i did essentially that
07:30:39 <ehird> or is it PLEASE NOTE?
07:31:06 <oerjan> quite possibly all of them
07:31:27 <ehird> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:INTERCAL#INTERCAL_is_not_Compiler_Language_With_No_Pronouncable_Acronym
07:32:20 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall there is _some_ intuitive combination of PLEASE DO and NOT which is illegal
07:33:15 <ehird> it isn't PLEASE DON'T, is it?
07:33:20 <ehird> because N'T isn't an instruction...
07:34:05 <ehird> oerjan: 'ere, link to your intercal program with a bunch of irrelevant comments, I forget it
07:35:29 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/intercal/unlambda.li
07:36:39 <oerjan> i definitely used all three forms
07:37:15 <oerjan> although not all may have been in actually running positions
07:38:24 <oerjan> also don't try to run it with a recent INTERCAL, use ais523's bugfixed version from the C-INTERCAL distribution
07:39:15 <ehird> oerjan: recent INTERCAL? you mean esr c-intercal?
07:39:21 <ehird> i wouldn't dream of it, ais523's branch is canonical...
07:39:29 <ehird> well unofficially canonical.
07:39:36 <oerjan> no, i mean the one ais523 is maintaining
07:39:41 <ehird> what's the bugfixed version?
07:40:07 <oerjan> just one line that was technically illegal, and which is no longer allowed. i don't recall.
07:41:01 <oerjan> i used esr's version to develop the program. this was in 2002 or so, so ais523's version probably didn't exist yet
07:41:17 <ehird> there are no recent esr intercals, you see
07:41:28 <ehird> "If we took sexual behavior as an analogy, the possible many-to-one relation of the GO TO is like being gang-banged, with a relatively small variety of possible outcomes (progeny), while the COME FROM is more like a bee going from... oh, never mind." —Ted Nelson
07:41:44 <ehird> Brought to you by the inventor of teledildonics! Also Xanadu.
07:43:19 <oerjan> i think it may have been DO PLEASE that was the illegal variation...
07:43:37 <ehird> didn't we discuss the true opposite of GO TO a while ago?
07:43:56 <ehird> oh, we discussed the opposite of hyperlinks for use in a fancy C-INTERCAL website
07:44:09 <ehird> madbrain: inverse, then, not opposite
07:44:35 <ehird> anyway, it lead to our conclusion that whatever I came up with wasn't like COME FROM because COME FROM wasn't a true opposite of GO TO
07:46:49 <oerjan> if this is something like what links here in wikipedia or linksto: in google
07:47:02 <oerjan> then how is it not analogous to COME FROM
07:47:31 <ehird> I don't recall what it was; I imagine I'd have avoided those two since they're common
07:47:34 <ehird> But see Ted Nelson's link:
07:47:51 <ehird> http://catb.org/~esr/intercal/nelson.html
07:47:57 <ehird> Well, not ted nelson's LINK
07:48:12 <ehird> (Note: Reading Ted Nelson is hard.)
07:51:36 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur").
07:58:35 <oklopol> okay how about this for a solution skeleton: if i could prove the scramble of a regular language with just one character is regular, then, i could separately check, with the NFA, the a and b subsets of the language (because regular language with some character completely dropped out is still regular)
07:58:51 <oklopol> because i can stuff all b's on the stack
07:58:59 <ehird> if i could your mom, then, i could your mom
07:59:07 <ehird> (Fun fact: this is grammatically correct, given some slang.)
07:59:09 <oklopol> while checking a's, then guess at some point there is no input, and start doing the b's
07:59:34 <oklopol> i read it as grammatically correct without slang
07:59:48 <oklopol> well i guess it should be "me could your mom"
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:00 <oklopol> meaning "your mom could me"
08:00:30 <ehird> "If I could have sex with a computer" -> "If I could do have sex with a computer"
08:01:11 <oerjan> well clearly your scramble is determined by the possible amounts of a's and b's. But the relation between the possibilities could be complicated
08:01:14 <oklopol> interestingly enough, "ham" is a type of food
08:01:24 <ehird> ham is a type of duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
08:01:36 <ehird> hex codes, lol they shit all over the floor
08:01:39 <ehird> i have many a flaw
08:01:42 <ehird> okay i'll stop now, whore
08:01:45 <ehird> because this is becoming a bore.
08:01:55 <oerjan> as in, even if you know all possibilities for no. as _and_ all possibilities for no. bs, you don't know which possibilities can occur simultaneously.
08:02:49 <oerjan> however i suspect there is some intrinsic limit to how complicated the relationship can be in this case
08:03:05 <ehird> yeah without ass and without bullshit, relationships can only go so far
08:05:27 <ehird> got up at 8pm, oerjan
08:05:33 <ehird> whoa, it's 8am already
08:06:13 <oklopol> here i thought for *once* the automata theory problems were easy
08:07:19 <oklopol> (well actually last ones were, since we just started CFG, so it was mostly ad hoc proofs for properties of individual grammars)
08:16:52 * oerjan sees how to get the _sort_ rather than the scramble...
08:21:05 * ehird realises that geekhack.org are warming him to the idea of buying a $256 keyboard
08:21:05 <ehird> ehh, it's 100 octal dollars, not *too* bad
08:21:30 <ehird> holy fuck I'm so dumb
08:21:40 <ehird> I don't know what base 256 is 100 in
08:21:44 <ehird> what is up with me
08:21:52 <ehird> anyway, uh, yeah, $256 keyboard people.
08:22:06 <ehird> plus shipping, plus import duty.
08:29:24 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917
08:29:33 <ehird> apart from the ridged capslock, amazing
08:29:49 <ehird> keyboard with no borders + real, authentic IBM trackpoint + beautiful case
08:29:56 <ehird> + clicky mechanical keyswitches
08:30:03 <ehird> i want one, too bad it's a mod.
08:37:10 <oklopol> ehird: 100 = 1*b^2 + 0*b + 0*1 = 256, solve for b
08:38:27 <ehird> i knew it was base 16, it just clashed with my understanding of 0xFF
08:38:34 <ehird> because i thought 256 = 255
08:38:42 <ehird> pretty stupid, yeah.
08:39:25 <oklopol> don't worry, i can't even do my math homework.
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09:07:17 <ehird> Quick poll: which key is more common, |\ or ~`?
09:17:59 <MizardX> 1) "\" 2) "|" 3) "~" 4) "`"
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09:28:42 <ehird> MizardX: no, the combined keys.
09:28:56 <ehird> maybe your kb doesn't have 'em :P
09:29:31 <MizardX> Only ever used |\ in regex, with something following the \
09:30:10 <MizardX> They show as two characters for me
09:30:45 <ehird> as i said, possibly your keyboard maps them to different keys.
09:30:59 <ehird> (` being the unshifted version)
09:31:35 <ehird> A... combined E and J key?
09:31:44 <MizardX> Ah. My keyboard has "<>|" and "¨^~" (normal, shifted and AltGr)
09:31:52 <ehird> MizardX: Thought so.
09:32:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Presumably short for "English/Japanese"
09:32:41 <Deewiant> I.e. switches mappings across the board or something.
09:33:56 <ehird> Incidentally, how do you think of this as a first-column in a kb layout (sans the bottom one):
09:35:03 <Deewiant> Well, that's pretty much what I've got except for a key in between and at the bottom :-P
09:35:42 <ehird> I am designing a keyboard layout without F keys!
09:35:57 <ehird> (You press Fn+number for them. Although technically they're punctuation keys, with the shifted functionality of numbers.)
09:36:17 <ehird> It *does* have a bottom row, though; I just haven't designed it yet :-P
09:37:42 <ehird> Ooh, I can even fit arrow keys in.
09:38:33 <oklopol> i want a keyboard layout where pressing a key starts a thread that presses that key once a second, backspace cancels a thread if you press it just after a key has been pressed by the thread, because after that the key is always deleted right after the thread presses it
09:39:17 <oklopol> anyway you can work with such a keyboard for an arbitrary period of time, assuming you can be arbitrarily fast
09:39:39 <oklopol> after a while the delays after which you need to press backspace start getting kinda small
09:40:18 <ehird> oklopol: i'm so tempted to write a program to do that
09:40:30 <oklopol> go ahead, i'm sure it'd be awesome
09:40:45 <ehird> only in a terminal window though, I'm way too lazy to learn OSy stuff
09:40:45 <oklopol> hmm..... what if the delays go 1, 2, 4, 8, ... seconds
09:40:58 <oklopol> actually then also the backspace becomes more delayed
09:41:38 <MizardX> What if you press some key twice, or backspace twice?
09:41:48 <oklopol> MizardX: then there's two threads.
09:42:07 <oklopol> nothing is ever cancelled, you just start an eraser thread by pressing backspace
09:42:45 <oklopol> anyone sense an esolang? :P
09:43:50 <ehird> oklopol: what if the delays halve\
09:44:04 <ehird> you'd have to be a physics-improving-and-self-improving AI to get it as time goes on
09:44:04 <oklopol> oh right, that's actually better
09:44:19 <oklopol> what if you accidentally press a, and go get coffee
09:44:20 <ehird> since after a while the delays become <planck-second
09:44:29 <ehird> oklopol: well, don't be so stupid
09:44:36 <ehird> it'd take years to remove all the as anyway with 1s delay :P
09:44:40 <oklopol> or press backspace, you will never be able to use your keyboard again :D
09:45:01 <ehird> just time another key
09:45:03 <ehird> right before the backspace
09:45:25 <ehird> i mean assuming you're not to late
09:45:33 <ehird> oklopol: start the delay at like 10 seconds so that you have a chance
09:45:39 <ehird> also, so that it appears to be a regular keyboard at first glance
09:46:30 <oklopol> we should probably start production
09:48:06 <ehird> oklopol: yeah I'm writing that program.
09:48:35 <ehird> oklopol: erm using OS threads is a bad idea due to timing fluctuation, isn't it
09:48:43 <ehird> or does that just add to the fun
09:50:29 <oklopol> i think they should be accurate, so you they're "theoretically usable"
09:51:04 <ehird> actually the guarantee in sleep() is that it won't return BEFORE n seconds
09:51:07 <ehird> it could take n*99999999999999 seconds
09:51:15 <ehird> same with thread switching among the rest of the system, etc
09:51:18 <oklopol> well, maybe you can with random fluctuations too, but at least considerably harder
09:51:31 <ehird> well, OS threads will get you minute random fluctuations
09:52:16 <ehird> oklopol: can you hold shift keys? if so, caps lock = hold down shift for a whole delay time
09:52:22 <ehird> unfortunately not reversible, you'd need an anti-switch key
09:53:53 <oklopol> or double shift = no shift
09:54:20 <ehird> so shift, delay, shift = no shift?
09:54:22 <ehird> right, that'd work
09:55:11 <ehird> oklopol: i just realised with halving delays, you have to erase the very first one that appears
09:55:17 <ehird> or you can never erase them all
09:55:21 <ehird> (to delete an accidental key)
09:55:28 <ehird> you can never go faster than the key
09:55:34 <ehird> because it was pressed earlier than you
09:55:39 <ehird> oklopol: so basically... don't make mistakes.
09:55:58 <ehird> also, be very good at hitting backspace right after the first repetition
09:56:09 <ehird> wait, that fails after a while too
09:56:18 <ehird> oklopol: it needs a reset button, as much as that ruins the keyboard-broken-forever fun
09:56:27 <ehird> so you type out your sentence REALLY QUICK, deal with the first repetitions, then reset it
09:56:45 <ehird> just linear delays
09:57:38 <oklopol> for irc, write your message, press enter, backspace everything you wrote, wait for delay, then accelerate your typing speed so much you can fit your next message and its backspaces between 0 and time of first character, press enter between, repeat; assuming enter is special, if there's an enter thread, you're bound to repeat the same lines forever
09:57:50 <oklopol> oh actually not, you could erase them just before next enter
09:58:36 <ehird> i lol'd at "then accelerate your typing speed so much you can fit your next message and its backspaces between 0 and time of first character" irl
09:59:12 <ehird> oklopol: also not true with the enter thread thing
09:59:18 <ehird> you can manipulate it before it gets to enter
09:59:18 <oklopol> so write message, press enter, remember the time just before enter, your next message goes before the first character, during next thread interval, and you always need to erase last interval's characters just before thri enter
09:59:51 <ehird> coding with this would be fun
10:00:06 <ehird> incidentally, with mistakes you can tell someone's typing speed.
10:00:12 <ehird> (unerased characters)
10:01:48 <oklopol> so, MSG1 <ENTER> || MSG2 <ENTER> msg1 <BACKSPACES> <enter> || MSG3 <ENTER> msg2 <BACKSPACES> <enter> msg1 <backspaces> <enter> || ... where ucase is for new additions
10:01:53 <oklopol> assuming empty messages aren't sent
10:02:15 <oklopol> so this would suggest moving stuff towards the end of the interval keeps things non-exponential
10:02:52 <oklopol> of course, you will have to manage to get all the backspaces in place right away, because the slot will get smaller and smaller
10:03:22 <ehird> I'm implementing it now
10:04:43 <oklopol> good, then we can compete about who can write the most sentences without size of buffer getting over 256
10:04:59 <ehird> it will require curses
10:05:02 <ehird> so you'll have to DOWNLOAD A LIBRARY
10:05:08 <ehird> even termios would
10:06:06 <oklopol> or rob a bank and buy a dog that can telepathically send me the results of running that
10:06:14 <oklopol> i see your point, i can never try it.
10:07:32 <ehird> don't you have an ubuntu machine
10:09:07 <oklopol> well sure, but it's in the other room!
10:09:54 <ehird> ok, I have a curses program that echoes out characters
10:09:56 <ehird> no arrow keys for you
10:10:01 <ehird> nor backspace, but I'll add that
10:10:26 <oklopol> also the game theory lecturer is, well, an insanely bad lecturer, i love how he always copies half the homework from the book, but introduces a few errors because he sucks at english (russian dude), and makes up a few of his own after the book runs out of nice ones
10:10:43 <oklopol> and the ones he makes himself are always insanely trivial, the ones from the book are, well, MIT stuff
10:10:56 <oklopol> some get kinda complicated
10:11:44 <oklopol> so basically the first three or so are incredibly hard, and the last ones are basically trivial if you've read the definitions
10:12:39 <ehird> hmm okay some bugsgs i think
10:13:05 <oklopol> the dude often actually copies the exercises word to word, except leaves a few sentences out, and changes a few details making the problem impossible or trivial, so you first need to find the exercise in the book to understand what should actually be solved
10:13:20 <ehird> are you sure he's not an awesome lecturer
10:13:24 <ehird> i mean, only people like you will succeed
10:13:30 <ehird> the kind of people who go to such lengths
10:14:53 <oklopol> well most people haven't done any of these, since they're optional
10:15:04 <ehird> okay bad lecturer.
10:15:11 <oklopol> but one dude has done one more than me
10:15:36 <oklopol> well, people usually don't do much homework even if it isn't optional
10:15:39 <MizardX> typing "hello world" at 1 ch/s, running for 10 secs: hellollo o l o wew wwo wlw wolowoo owoowo owoowoo oworlowrror rowrrorrowroror rowrrorrowrror rowrrorrowrlorlolrl lrlolwrllrlolrllrllolwrllrlolrl lrlolwrllrlollrllrlolwrllorlolrl lrlolwrllrlolrllrlolwrllrlolrld h
10:15:42 <ehird> [[Yes, curses is protected by the global interpreter lock: No two calls
10:15:42 <ehird> into curses are allowed simultaneously.]]
10:15:44 <ehird> well that will help
10:15:55 <ehird> MizardX: yes, but that doesn't handle user input, presumably
10:16:00 <ehird> so you can't baackspace
10:17:15 <ehird> okay, the adding works, it just doesn't flush the screen
10:17:48 <ehird> no wait, window.getch() being blocking
10:17:50 <ehird> blocks all the other threads
10:17:54 <ehird> from making curses calls
10:17:57 <ehird> so it has to be non-blocking
10:21:55 <ehird> Hello, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, wor
10:21:56 <ehird> ldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, w orldHHdeo!llwo , war ore ldyHHdeoo!lulwo, ,I war o re olndyHHddeeoo!lrul?wo, ,II w ar o hwre olnodyHpHddee eoo!lrul?wo, ,II yw
10:21:56 <ehird> ar o hwre ouoln odyHapHddreee eoo !lrulwe?lwo, l ,,I I yw ar Io hwre oguoln ou
10:21:56 <ehird> dyHapHddreeees eoo !lrulwse,?lw o, lb u,,I tI yw ar Io Ihwre oguoln oud;yH'pa
10:21:57 <ehird> Hddreeees eoo !lrulwse,?lmw o, lb u, ,I tIn yw aor Io Ithwre oguoln oud;yH'p
10:21:57 <ehird> aHddreeees reoo !leraulwsel,?lmw ol, yl b u, ,I tIsn yw aor uIo Irthwre eo g
10:21:59 <ehird> uolabn oud;yH'paHddreeeoes ureoo !lotuer aulwstel,h?lmwa ol,t yl b u, .,I tIsn
10:22:01 <ehird> yw aor uIo Irthwre eo guolabn oud;yH'paHddreeeoes ureoo !lotuer aulwstel,h?lm
10:22:03 <ehird> wa ol,t yl b u, .,I tIsn yw aor uIo Irthwre eo guolabn oud;yH'paHddreeeoes u
10:22:05 <ehird> reoo !lotuer aulwstel,h?lmwa ol,t yl b u, .,I tIsn yw aor uIo Irthwre eo guo
10:22:09 <ehird> think I need to implement backspace.
10:23:04 <ehird> oklopol: it gets way harder after just a few leters
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10:27:08 <ehird> oklopol: it really gets impossible, I haven't done backspace yet but just fitting it into that tiny segment is impossible
10:27:15 <ehird> maybe the delay should double, just so it's not impossible
10:28:11 <ehird> oklopol: actually doubling delays makes it impossible
10:28:17 <ehird> since yours intersects :D
10:28:20 <ehird> although it syncs up, eventually!
10:28:47 <ehird> in fact you can just type normally then wait
10:29:18 <ehird> every key has its own delay
10:29:21 <ehird> starting at 1 and going 2, 4, etc
10:29:28 <ehird> which of course, if you type a word in the delay
10:29:32 <ehird> makes it repeat 1 second later
10:29:36 <ehird> and in a few delays
10:29:39 <ehird> this happens while the other is delaying
10:29:41 <ehird> mashing them together
10:32:29 <ehird> oklopol: this is totally impossible
10:32:49 <oklopol> if you press "a" at t, "b" at u and "c" at v, then they will repeat at (t+1, u+1, v+1), (t+3, u+3, v+3), (t+7, u+7, v+7), ..., resulting in tuvtuvtuv..., if t didn't repeat during writing the first tuv
10:32:55 <ehird> HelloHelloHello,Hello,Hello, Hello, wHello, woHello, woHello, wroHello, wrolHeld
10:32:55 <ehird> lo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHel
10:33:20 <ehird> oklopol: using constant 1sec ddelay
10:33:23 <ehird> think i should increase it?
10:33:49 <oklopol> increase it to TEN BILLION LIGHT YEARS MILLIONS
10:34:57 <ehird> oklopol: well fine, do you want to try and type with 1sec?
10:35:00 <ehird> get your ubuntu machine, bitch
10:35:10 <oklopol> i'm kinda doing stuff here :P
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11:09:39 <ehird> oklopol: still thinging does?
11:14:24 <ehird> can't even take five minutes and stay up five minutes longer, kids these days
11:26:57 <ehird> Deewiant: You didn't even think of the backspace-on-capslock thing, you just inherited it from Colemak :P
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12:42:06 <ehird> "Disregarding the metaphysical aspects of Schrodinger's cats, (Letters, April 28) I must protest at the use of (possibly live) animals for experiments such as these. I urge readers to boycott whatever product this research is leading to.
12:42:06 <ehird> Roger Bisby, Reigate, Surrey."
12:42:17 <ehird> — letter sent to the Guardian
12:50:02 <ehird> You don't know what
12:50:15 <Deewiant> I recall being surprised that Colemak made the same choice as I did
12:50:43 <Deewiant> But it's possible I picked it up from Colemak earlier and forgot about it
12:50:46 <ehird> I did that mapping to try it out, but got too bothered by the fact that the LED still switched to actually give it a chance.
12:50:55 <ehird> It doesn't help that I'm using a shitty keyboard.
12:51:15 <Deewiant> That's why I originally dismissed it too
12:51:16 <ehird> I can't decide that $256 is way too much FOR NOW FOR NOW and settle on the brown filco a moment too soon.
12:51:39 <Deewiant> But then I actually tried it and found that it doesn't toggle the LED, so I was happy.
12:51:59 <ehird> It did for me, though.
12:52:04 <ehird> Using DoubleCommand.
12:52:13 <ehird> I could probably remap it with something else, but that soured it in my mind, so eh.
12:52:29 <ehird> Deewiant: You're criticising OS X because some low-level-tinkering software sucks?
12:52:40 <Deewiant> Worked for me first time in both Windows and Linux
12:52:41 <ehird> Wow, why HELLO there, Windows, why are you sobbing in the corner with a dunce cap?
12:52:49 <ehird> Did someone hurt your feelings?
12:52:53 <Deewiant> ehird: It's a perfectly valid criticism
12:52:55 <ehird> They said your software sucks?
12:53:02 <ehird> Well I think someone only IMPLIED that, man.
12:53:14 <Deewiant> I didn't say it doesn't apply to anything else :-P
12:53:15 <ehird> I'm leaving you, Windows.
12:53:23 <ehird> You're a whining bitch.
12:53:47 <ehird> <Windows> *rapes me*
12:53:51 <ehird> Oh, that's why I left you.
12:53:55 <ehird> ...apart from the bitch thing.
12:54:04 <ehird> ...and thus ends that warped... thing. Mini-play.
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13:22:14 <oklopol> oerjan, possibly fizzie: use stack as a counter (-inf, inf), take the DFA recognizing L, replace each b-move with an epsilon move that incs the counter, and make each actual b decrement the counter, now if x \in scramble(L), then you can guess the word it's derived from, and follow its accepting path, the b-counter will get to zero, if the machine accepts something, it did so using some accepting path -> the word was the scramble of
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13:22:32 <oklopol> tried to solve that for fucking hours, then go to the shop, and solve in in about 2 minutes :|
13:22:47 <oklopol> irc seriously makes me retarded
13:22:58 <oklopol> assuming that's correct, i'm so high on caffeine atm i don't know which direction is true and which is green
13:23:52 <oklopol> also i solved a measure theory problem i'd been trying to solve for hours, on the same trip, in even less time
13:24:01 <oklopol> if i ever become a mathematician, i'll probably just walk around campus all day
13:24:28 <ehird> oklopol: do you want the python file
13:25:11 <oklopol> no, in fact i'm currently very tempted to throw my computer away, i prefer being intelligent over having company :|
13:25:13 <fizzie> oklopol: It got cut off a bit; here at "-> the word was the scramble o".
13:25:26 <ehird> due to + thing client thing
13:25:31 <oklopol> accepting path -> the word was the scramble of the word that accepting path accepts
13:25:35 <ehird> oklopol: you can prove you're intelligent by beating me at oklokbing
13:26:20 <oklopol> i'm not going to prove that by induction or anything, because, well, that's boring. so would be nice if you could check my logic
13:28:55 <ehird> haha it's so impossible
13:29:16 <ehird> sweet, I pressed backspace too many times
13:29:51 <fizzie> The logic sounds sense-making to me, especially as far as it comes to accepting any word in scramble(L).
13:29:51 <ehird> oklopol: I bet you you cannot type all your IRC lines in this and then paste them in
13:29:56 <ehird> I bet you'll fail horribly
13:30:16 <ehird> as a bonus it has accelerating key repeat
13:30:27 <ehird> also it exits if you hit the bottom of the window
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13:31:12 <oklopol> fizzie: in the other direction, assume the machine accepts some word w, then it went through an accepting path that would normally accept some x, with the additional knowledge that the counter went to zero, so w must've been a scramble of x
13:31:20 <ehird> Soitm,rSifoitim,rpe sl Sixnfodi tim,ropfe sal alaiSixienfodi tim,ropfe tsal u
13:31:20 <ehird> alairaeiSixiaenfodi tim,rotpfe tsalt uialairra keei Sixiawenfodi e tim,ro tpfe
13:31:21 <ehird> tsalt uialairr euakeee i Sixiiawnefodi e ntim, ro tptfe htsael t uialairr eua
13:31:21 <ehird> keee i Sixisiawnefodii e nctim, ro tptfe htsatiel t uiealsairry eua skeee oi Si
13:31:21 <ehird> x isiawnefodii e nctrim, reo tptalfe htsatiel t luiyealsa irry eua skneSee oi
13:31:22 <ehird> iSix siiawfneodii ae nctirmk, reo t ptatlfe htsateihl t luaityealsa i rryt eua
13:31:23 <ehird> cskn htee i o uiSix ssiti awfneodiib ae nctirmke, reo t pttlfee htsatteihl t
13:31:25 <ehird> lruaituyaelsa i rryte seua cIskn hfte ei o uiSxi ssiti awfneodiib ae ncxtir
13:31:27 <ehird> mke, reo t e ptltfee h tsatteihl t llruaituyeaelsa i rrtyte, seua cIiskn thft
13:31:29 <oklopol> *we can conclude w must've been a...
13:31:29 <ehird> e ehi o uiSxi sisti bawnfeodiib ae necxtirmke, reo t e ptltfeet h tsattreihl t
13:31:31 <ehird> llruuaituyeaelsa i rretyte, seua .cIiskn thfSte ehi o uiSxi sisti bawnfeodi
13:31:33 <ehird> ib ae necxtrimke, reo t e ptltfeet h tsatt eihl t llruuaituyeaelsa i rretyte,
13:31:35 <ehird> seua .cIiskn thfStee hi o uiSxi ssiti bawnfeodiib ae necxtrimke, reo t ep tl
13:31:37 <ehird> god it's so pretty
13:31:52 <ehird> it's only experiencable if you see all the backspacing happening
13:32:13 <oklopol> because clearly w must've had the same amount of both a's and b's as x
13:32:47 <oklopol> well, anyway, that's my final answer even if the logic is wrong, IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING RIGHT IT'S ABOUT LEARNING YOU SEE
13:32:49 <ehird> oklopol: the hidden issue with this plan is after only a few backspaces, they drown out any new keys
13:32:53 <ehird> and intersect with the others
13:33:00 <ehird> How are How are youHow are youHow are youHow are you?How are you?How are you?How
13:33:00 <ehird> a r eyou?How a r eyou?How a r eyou?How a r eyou?Hw ar eou?Hw ar eou?Hw ar eou?w
13:33:00 <ehird> arouowr e rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar
13:33:00 <ehird> rouoar rouoar rouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar
13:33:40 <ehird> oklopol: type all your irc lines into this first, and i'll record a vid.
13:33:46 <ehird> or is it the other way around
13:37:35 <ehird> oklopol: i guess the latter but you won't actually do it, eh
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13:44:28 <ehird> oklopol: i am disagreeableing with your nature
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13:44:34 <ehird> i am accidentally leaving
13:50:41 <ehird> oklopol: do it in the ass then keyboard
13:50:44 <ehird> you came up with this idea
13:51:02 <ehird> otherwise you are the biggest dick. in a bad way
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14:00:24 <ehird> i thought you died
14:00:29 <ehird> you haven't been here since, what, 2007
14:01:40 <ehird> fax: don't disappear again. kthx
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14:10:26 <oklopol> ehird: then sorry about being a dick.
14:10:51 <ehird> someone: try my kb thing
14:11:00 <ehird> i am claiming authorship of it due to oklopol's suckiness.
14:11:14 <fax> what kb thing?
14:24:00 <oklopol> lol i think i am in fact learning absolute pitch, at least i seem to get A right almost every time i try
14:24:11 <ehird> 01:38:33 <oklopol> i want a keyboard layout where pressing a key starts a thread that presses that key once a second, backspace cancels a thread if you press it just after a key has been pressed by the thread, because after that the key is always deleted right after the thread presses it
14:24:16 <ehird> 01:38:37 <oklopol> "layout"
14:24:16 <ehird> 01:39:17 <oklopol> anyway you can work with such a keyboard for an arbitrary period of time, assuming you can be arbitrarily fast
14:24:16 <ehird> 01:39:39 <oklopol> after a while the delays after which you need to press backspace start getting kinda small
14:24:18 <oklopol> would be pretty cool to master that at 20, since it's supposedly be impossible
14:24:25 <ehird> and after coding it, let me specify that while = by the second word
14:24:31 <ehird> in "after a while"
14:24:51 <ehird> ofc I could increase the delay from 1s, but that's so boring!
14:25:44 <ehird> it's especially impossible to erase the first repetition
14:25:55 <ehird> oklopol: it cancels the thread?
14:25:57 <ehird> as in specialcased?
14:26:07 <ehird> i have the keys being there for a split second
14:26:11 <ehird> so if you type there it erases the wrong key
14:26:21 <ehird> makes for a fun typing experience
14:27:12 <ehird> ASDJKahsdjkasdd SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasad SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasad SaaDJ aasajsadja
14:27:12 <ehird> daaasad SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasa dSaaDs aasajsadjadaaasa dSaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasa d
14:27:12 <ehird> SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasa dSaaDJ aasajsadj daaaaa dSaaDJ aasajsadj daaaaad SaaDJ aa
14:27:12 <ehird> sajsadj dasaaad SaaDJ ahsajsadj dasaaad SaaDJ ahsajsadj dasasad SaaDJ ahsajsadk
14:27:15 <ehird> you can get such fun generators going
14:27:33 <oklopol> no no nothing is ever cancelled, that's the fun
14:27:44 <ehird> I don'DnrJI o w DnbrJIea o
14:27:44 <ehird> tdc wm aDknbrJIeia on g
14:27:45 <ehird> tdc sm wmi aDknbrJIeia o gt
14:27:45 <ehird> dc smu twlmia DiknbrJkIeeika o g
14:27:45 <ehird> tdca ksbmu h ittw lmbia DiukgnbrJkIegeika o g
14:27:46 <ehird> tdcae rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om g
14:27:47 <ehird> tdcaoe rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om gt
14:27:49 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om gt
14:27:51 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om gt
14:27:53 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmua lh i tlw lm tehia Diuekgn tbJrkIiegeika om gt
14:27:55 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmuatlh i tlw lm tehia Diuekgn tbJrkIiegeika om g
14:27:57 <ehird> tdcaoe kr bsmuethl ittlw lm behia Diuekgn tbJrkIiegeika om ngt
14:28:10 <fax> that is not real words
14:28:22 <ehird> fax: that's the result of trying to type real words into this thing
14:28:57 <ehird> oklopol: the best part is that when you backspace, which letters you typed when matter
14:29:03 <ehird> Helo can turn into Ho
14:29:07 <ehird> just by backspacing
14:30:53 <ehird> oh, and when you overstep the initial delay and mangle your first word
14:30:59 <ehird> oklopol: you should totally try this up
14:31:42 <ehird> How many peopHleo w amarney p eeopvHeleon w amasakrneyi ngp eteohpve Helqeonu
14:31:42 <ehird> w aemassaktrneyi ingpo netseohp vet Helhqoneatu w aemawsseaktr nneyi inegpo
14:31:43 <ehird> neetdseoh p vet tHeolqhoena tu wa s aekmawsse atktr noneyi ineagpo nedetdseo
14:31:43 <ehird> h vp veat tHeolqhnoenac etu wa s aeokmaswse autkt rrn oneyi sineagpoo nedcet
14:31:43 <ehird> dseoh vp iveaet tHetolqhnoenac yetu wa s aeokmasws?e autk t rrTn oneyi h sinea
14:31:44 <ehird> gpoao t nedcetdseiohv p iveaset tH etolqhnwoaenc hyetu wa s aaeoktmaw ss?e au
14:31:45 <ehird> tk t rrITn onye i h sinweagpaooo u t nedcetdseiohl vp ivedas et tH etlolqhniwona
14:31:46 <oklopol> maybe i'll try it at some point
14:31:47 <ehird> ec hyetu wa s kaeaeokmta w ss?e auttk to rrITn on ye i h sinweagkpnaooo u t no
14:31:49 <ehird> edcetdwseiohl vp ived.as et tH etlolqhniwonaechyetu wa s kaeaeoktm w ss?e autt
14:31:51 <ehird> k to rrTn on y ei h siweakgpnaooo u t noecetdwseihol vp iveda.s t tH etlolqhniwo
14:31:53 <ehird> naehyetu wa s kaeaeoktm w sse uttkto rTon y ih swakgpnaoo necetdwseihol vp i
14:31:55 <ehird> veda.s t tH etlolqhniwoenahye wtua s kaeaeoktm w sse utkto rTon y ih iakgnaoo
14:31:57 <ehird> cetdwehol v ieda.t H ellqniwenhye twa s keaoktw s etko n y hakncedwhol ida Helni
14:31:59 <ehird> nheytwa eok wsetko n y hraknaoceldwhol ieda Heylhnlinheytwa eok swse tko rn y
14:32:01 <ehird> t h ragnao celdwehonl iveda Hetwlhniwonheytwa eok swse tko rn yet h ragnao celw
14:32:03 <ehird> dehonlvive.a Hetwlhn
14:34:11 <ehird> oklopol: you just know you can't do it
14:36:54 <Deewiant> Looks like my typing with this keyboard
14:37:14 <ehird> Deewiant: alpscopyfag!
14:37:23 <ehird> keyboard switch wars do not allow for catchy insults.
14:37:38 <ehird> The Zero are ALPS copies
14:37:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh you mean the insult thing
14:38:01 <ehird> "Fucking bucklingspringsexual."
14:38:17 <ehird> Ooh, there is one though: ruberDUMBER.
14:42:27 <fax> I thought I was unusual for using colemak :D
14:50:10 <ehird> Deewiant, the alpscopyfag with a fetish for... uh... colemakism.
14:51:17 <ehird> i still can't comprehend that the realforce 87u costs $256. i mean... fucking hell
14:51:48 <ehird> fucking hexadecimal decadollar
14:58:17 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
14:58:22 <ehird> hexadecimal hectodollar
14:58:43 <ehird> Could modify all the prefixes like that
14:59:19 <Deewiant> Except that hecto- comes from hekaton and deka- from deka :-P
14:59:22 <ehird> Hexa, hexto, hexilo, meghex, gighex, hexra...
14:59:46 <Deewiant> (Yes I'm aware deca is correct English but meh)
15:16:00 <ehird> totally offering $0 to anyone who can type solely on IRC with this thing
15:16:06 <ehird> even pay via paypal
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15:44:14 <fax> hey SimonRC
15:44:25 <fax> was it you that drew the personifications of each programming language?
15:44:55 <fax> Scheme was a meditating guy and javascript was a kid with a catapult
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16:42:22 <fax> do you still have it? I want it :P
16:44:15 <fax> I don't know
16:50:14 <SimonRC> I might have the original, but I have no way to put it into the computer
17:02:02 <SimonRC> this server doesn't have a good network connection, so to be polite I have put it somewhere hard to find
17:02:34 <SimonRC> http://fof.durge.org/~sc/invite_only/langs.png
17:03:19 <SimonRC> if you stop wanting it, do tell
17:03:37 <SimonRC> (so 10,000 people don't download it)
17:05:14 <SimonRC> right, 17:05 is breakfast time!
17:08:00 <fax> thanks a lot!! I've got it now
17:19:06 <Gregor> Poor JavaScript gets no lurve :P
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18:34:51 <oerjan> <oklopol> did that come through?
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18:36:46 <oerjan> <oklopol> tried to solve that for fucking hours, then go to the shop, and solve in in about 2 minutes :|
18:36:57 <oerjan> that's not stupidity, that's just how intuition works.
18:37:48 <oerjan> you _need_ to take a conscious break in order for the unconscious mind to do its part of the work.
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19:06:18 <oklopol> oerjan: except that always happens when i go out.
19:06:37 <oklopol> i just think more clearly when i wal
19:07:10 <oerjan> i don't see how that contradicts what i said :)
19:07:10 <oklopol> even if i actually try less hard, or, well, perhaps, as you said, partly because of it
19:07:46 <oklopol> maybe it doesn't! anyway i need to massage humans now.
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21:22:12 <Tritonio> why did brainfuck golf stop? its website doesn't even have the results for the 2002 competition... :-|
21:23:22 <oklokok> we all switched to irl golfing
21:24:33 <oklokok> "in real life", but i use it in the meaning "real life" as well
21:35:19 <AnMaster> oklokok, IRP golfing would be fun
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22:29:50 <Deewiant> 'For example, using a search pattern of "*1*.txt" returns "longfilename.txt" because the equivalent 8.3 file name format is "LONGFI~1.TXT".' --http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/wz42302f%28loband%29.aspx
22:35:52 <fizzie> I would hope that happens only on FAT filesystems, though.
22:38:37 <Deewiant> 8.3 still exists (and is relied on by some programs) on NTFS
22:38:54 <fizzie> http://blogs.msdn.com/adioltean/archive/2005/01/27/362105.aspx and so on.
22:39:59 <Deewiant> Yep, I disabled it and ended up breaking at least MS's Keyboard Layout Creator.
22:40:37 <Deewiant> Took me a decent enough amount of time to figure out why it couldn't find an executable that was in its own installation directory.
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22:58:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Never am.
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23:29:10 <Tritonio> does anybody known the result of the second contest?
23:29:40 <Tritonio> the one with the program that sorted the symbols in the input.
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23:47:28 <Ilari> When did LFN appear? 1995?
23:47:38 <Ilari> LFN on FAT that is...
23:48:51 <Ilari> Its 14 years since, and some programs still use SFN???
23:49:13 <pikhq> The Windows API doesn't require the usage of LFN.
23:49:44 <SimonRC> ah, bar-quad-scum-batter-billy-tea
23:50:11 <pikhq> They literally took the Win16 API and did s/2/4/ on sizeof(void*), and then added functions.
23:50:22 <SimonRC> (or should that be bar-quad-scum-patter-billy-tea?)
23:51:16 <SimonRC> pikhq: do you read OldNewThing?
23:51:25 <SimonRC> that explains much about the indows API
23:51:52 <SimonRC> there is a chapter of book online sopmewhere that talks about the epic hacks system MS invented to keep old shite working
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23:54:42 <pikhq> No, I don't. Should I?
23:55:17 <SimonRC> OldNewThing is often interesting
23:55:19 <pikhq> Hmm. I've read some posts in that blog.
00:04:10 -!- madbrain has joined.
00:04:38 <madbrain> I'm having a hard time making an infinite tape in functional language
00:04:55 <oerjan> hint: tuple of two stacks
00:05:26 <pikhq> Hint: that is a tape.
00:05:54 <fax> stacks are finite unless you jiggery pokery with the lazy languages
00:05:54 <madbrain> well, right now that solution works with a finite tape
00:06:10 <oerjan> fax: they are _extensible_
00:06:47 <oerjan> madbrain: ignore fax. but you do need to check for empty stacks, and extend when necessary.
00:06:56 <pikhq> fax: They are of arbitary size, unless your language implementation is broken.
00:07:00 <pikhq> (as they all are.)
00:07:34 <oerjan> fax: are you faxithisia [sp?] ?
00:08:46 <oerjan> madbrain: also, if your stacks are functions, then you can make them self-extending i think. but tuples may be easier otherwise...
00:08:54 <madbrain> I'm trying to make an object that returns a new 0 integer when you pass it True and itself when you pass it False but as of yet it is not working
00:10:01 <madbrain> yeah, I implemented my 8bit integers more or less as objects
00:10:26 <oerjan> madbrain: well it would be f = b(0, f) wouldn't it?
00:10:33 <oerjan> madbrain: well it would be f b = b(0, f) wouldn't it?
00:11:01 <fax> oerjan: I don't like "ignore fax", have I said something that is misleading or idiotic
00:11:16 <oerjan> fax: sorry that was a bit rough
00:11:22 <madbrain> yeah that's what I'm trying to do but the semantics are complicated and as of yet I've mostly got infinite loops or syntax errors
00:11:33 <oerjan> fax: it was wrong, though ;)
00:11:43 <fax> oerjan: I'm not sure why a finite stack + a check if it's null to extend it with a 0 is nicer than an infinite stream of zeros
00:11:54 <fax> oerjan maybe you know something I don't like e.g. what language he is using
00:12:16 <fax> what was wrong?
00:12:23 <madbrain> I'll take anthing that doesn't infinite loop :D
00:12:27 <oerjan> fax: he is using an esoteric functional language which is horrible to program in, so it's best to do everything as simple as at all possible
00:12:42 <fax> yeah to me "finite stack + a check if it's null to extend it with a 0" doesn't sound simple
00:13:07 <oerjan> fax: what was wrong was that you couldn't use two stacks for a tape
00:13:33 <fax> oerjan: You can certainly use two stacks for a tape: If you want an infinite tape then two finite stacks do not work
00:13:36 <oerjan> fax: however the alternative is to use a function for an infinite stream here. it _may_ be simpler though.
00:13:42 <SimonRC> I don't suppose you could make the lists have loops at the end to make them look infinit when popped?
00:13:53 <fax> really a function for an infinite stream? that's a great idea I wish I'd thought of that :P
00:13:57 <oerjan> fax: the language has nothing but tuples and functions
00:14:02 <madbrain> simonrc: that's what I'm trying to do
00:14:50 <madbrain> I've just added an interpretation of tuples as closures, which does help a bit, but this is still maddening :D
00:14:56 <oerjan> and i think its data is all immutable, i may remember wrong though
00:15:53 <madbrain> fax: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar
00:17:09 <madbrain> also the tuple-disjoin operators apply in the wrong order, which is quite confusing
00:18:29 <oerjan> madbrain: note that when doing fixpoints in a non-lazy language you need to include the argument before taking fixpoint, otherwise you get an infinite loop. (like in unlambda.) maybe that is your problem?
00:19:03 <madbrain> I think I've had that problem yeah
00:19:24 <fax> can you compile lambda calculus into Univar?
00:19:44 <fax> I'd probably start by attempting that
00:19:53 <fax> (if it turned out realy hard then.. give up)
00:20:12 <oerjan> the only problem i see with that is that univar, as the name implies, only allows you to handle one variable/argument at a time. although i guess tuples helps with that.
00:20:53 <madbrain> oerjan: well, in practice you make statements that reassign the variable with a new tuple
00:21:21 <madbrain> so you can keep multiple variables, it's just incredibly inconveinient :D
00:24:26 <fax> the interpreter is a bit crude :P
00:24:27 <oerjan> but indeed, if this is for proving turing-completeness, lambda calculus or combinator calculus is likely to be easier
00:24:31 <fax> program="COPY PROGRAM HERE"
00:24:58 <madbrain> well, the lua documention didn't mention any text input function I think :D
00:25:15 <fax> so you invented this language?
00:25:54 <madbrain> It's not quite as cool as unlambda but yeah :D
00:26:04 <oerjan> fax: so i assume you aren't faxithisia from old then
00:27:01 <fax> madbrain: When I run the cat program it prints each char on its own line - is that correct?
00:27:11 <fax> oerjan that was my old nick
00:27:34 <oerjan> well long time no see then, i think
00:27:45 <Ilari> madbrain: file:read().
00:28:09 <Ilari> madbrain: Use something like io.stdin or whatever io.open returns as file there.
00:28:42 <fax> there should be a way to make it print without newlines..
00:34:13 <fax> what does that do :P
00:34:33 <Ilari> madbrain: Can you write quine in it?
00:34:45 <madbrain> before execution, var= 0 integer object
00:35:58 <madbrain> then it makes a tuple: var = {integer,infinite_stack_function}
00:36:46 <madbrain> Then it makes a tuple in an alternative way that is functional (basically a function that returns a on true and b on false)
00:39:04 <madbrain> and in this new tuple it puts the integer object, and then a new closure/object made out of the infinite stack function and a tuple with the required data (integer object and infinite stack function)
00:41:07 <Ilari> TC language with unrestricted output should be sufficient for existence of quine...
00:41:10 <madbrain> the infinite stack function reads in a value, if it's true it returns the integer object, if it false it returns a new closure made out of itself
00:41:52 <madbrain> yeah quite technically should be possible although I haven't tried it yet
00:42:24 <fax> Ilari I wonder if there's a proof of that which you could use to construct a quine for arbitrary languages
00:42:30 <madbrain> yay, now I have a full branfuck infinite tape object
00:43:22 <fax> madbrain: How do I do one thing after another: Like print one bit then print another bit? I guess make functions nested that do each one and put the result into the next in sequence?
00:43:46 <madbrain> well, functions are made out of series of expressions
00:44:25 <Ilari> Univar defintely has unrestricted output. So if it is TC, quine will exist...
00:44:40 <madbrain> so suppose you want to print something, you can keep the state of the variable like this: <&,!stuff_you_want_to_print
00:45:24 <fax> madbrain: Oh I can just write: !,!,!,!, to print , four times?
00:45:38 <fax> (!,!,!,!,) prints its argument four times?
00:45:53 <madbrain> fax: yeah, that's 4 statements but yeah
00:46:00 <fax> I'm confused
00:46:04 <fax> 4 statements?
00:46:06 <madbrain> that's if you want to print all of the variable
00:46:34 <madbrain> fax: yeah, all the code is made out of statements, but the assignment is implicit
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00:48:56 <madbrain> to print a part of the current var, you'd go var = {var,print(stuff_you_want_to_print)}.left
00:49:41 <fax> this is hard :P
00:51:56 <fax> so I'm not sure about the syntax: so I wrote some function ..., and I wonder if I need to write $(...)&,! to say apply a pair of the variable with an input bit to it
00:52:02 <fax> is that right? or I messed up somewhere
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00:53:25 <fax> I should have written ? instead of !
00:53:32 <fax> input from the keyboard
00:54:13 <madbrain> so that'd be $(..)&,? yeah, equivalent to var=func(join(var,input()))
00:54:57 <fax> damn my first program in univar didn't work
00:55:38 <fax> it was just supposed to print the first char of the input
00:56:00 <madbrain> so you have to transfer 8 bits first :D
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00:59:25 <Ilari> Heh... Someone should make executable which when run prints SHA-1 of itself (there's already C code which prints MD5 of its source).
00:59:50 <fax> Ilari was that done by brute force?
01:00:31 <Ilari> fax: It doesn't require breaking the hash.
01:01:02 <madbrain> look at its executable data, SHA-1's it, print?
01:01:03 <Ilari> Or better yet, SHA-256 of itself.
01:01:09 <fax> how does it work then
01:01:18 <Ilari> Closely related to quines.
01:02:18 <Ilari> Essentially, variant of quine which instead of directly outputting the string, feeds it to be hashed and prints the output.
01:05:38 <Ilari> Actually might be even easier methods to do it with native code, as you can directly read the code memory.
01:06:02 <fax> madbrain !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? works, but $(!,!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)? doesn't.. why?
01:06:19 <fax> shouldn't they be the same
01:07:02 <fax> it works :D
01:07:26 <Gregor> Can you write an interpreter that takes the program as a file instead of being embedded ...
01:11:03 <madbrain> once I finish this brainfuck interpret :D
01:11:52 <Ilari> Heck, a.out can be made to just directly map the text parts of program and headers to memory. Don't use data segment and put all variables in BSS and its more like shooting fish in barrel (most difficult task is to implement the hash function).
01:12:36 <fax> madbrain I don't understand !
01:12:45 <fax> this part "put a 0 bit in the output buffer if its value is (>,) or a 1 bit if its value is (<,),"
01:13:33 <madbrain> the extra comma was due to text formatting :(
01:13:59 <madbrain> but yeah (>,) is used as "true" bit and (<,) as "false"
01:15:20 <madbrain> or that's the wrong way around actually
01:16:19 <madbrain> you can do conditional execution with $$bit&(true function)(false function)parameters
01:23:08 <oerjan> <fax> Ilari I wonder if there's a proof of that which you could use to construct a quine for arbitrary languages
01:23:17 <oerjan> see http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html#sec_fp
01:25:54 <fax> oerjan can you actually produce the quine automatically from this proof?
01:26:19 <fax> I might have a go at that some point in the future
01:27:17 <oerjan> we also had a discussion on the wiki when someone tried to construct a tc language without a quine. it depends subtly on how you define "unrestricted output"...
01:27:37 <oerjan> now if i could just remember the page...
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01:38:18 <fax> madbrain: I'm confused again :P .. if I do $(...)&,? that's getting (variable,input) inside the function (as it should) but if I do $(...)&?, that's getting (input,variable) .. but I expected it to be getting (input,input)
01:38:40 <fax> why doesn't variable get written over by the ? part happening first?
01:39:28 <fax> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
01:41:34 <oerjan> fax: i think the assignment only applies to whole statements?
01:42:02 <oerjan> inside an expression, ? just returns a value
01:42:50 <madbrain> $(...)&?, is equivalent to var = fx({in(),var})
01:43:15 <fax> I can't read this fx({in(),var})
01:43:55 <fax> I just don't know what that means
01:44:23 <madbrain> {x,y} is lua for "create new array with elements x and y"
01:44:39 <madbrain> could also be written as tuple(x,y)
01:44:42 <fax> $f&? is like f({in(), var}) ?
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01:59:01 <madbrain> woot, I have everything done except the brainfuck looping :D
01:59:14 <fax> wow you are fast
01:59:49 <madbrain> well, I had most operators working already
02:00:18 <madbrain> now it can parse a brainfuck program into a function except for looping
02:04:15 <madbrain> ok looping time, this will require some fixed point magic :D
02:18:45 <pikhq> ... But the looping is the nontrivial bit.
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02:35:54 * fax is failing to encode church numerals into Univar
02:38:02 <madbrain> Church numeral 0 would be... (()) I think?
02:38:27 <oerjan> n f x = f(f(...(x)...))
02:39:14 <oerjan> i think making the argument a tuple would be easier...
02:40:08 <madbrain> Church numeral 1 would be... (&($<,>,),) as far as I can guess
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02:40:38 <oerjan> um you don't need to return a tuple
02:41:08 <madbrain> (&($<,>,),) is the d function I think
02:41:21 <oerjan> although that _could_ be convenient...
02:42:06 <oerjan> decrementing is generally awkward with church numerals
02:42:11 <madbrain> it uses a special function evaluation: if you evaluate a tuple, it uses the left member as a function, and combines the right member and the parameter in a tuple
02:42:54 <madbrain> Basically without that there are no closures
02:43:42 <madbrain> I modifed how that worked a bit because no closures was making things hard :D
02:46:47 <fax> yeah I was trying without, I couldn't seen any way
02:47:37 <madbrain> like, you can emulate closures but that was too ugly so I added a hack
02:47:56 <fax> oh I was trying that but I couldn't see how to do it for things like ((...))
02:47:59 <fax> where you have nesting
02:49:16 <madbrain> and when a closure function gets called, it gets a tuple with the original closure data on the left and the parameter on the right
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03:34:20 <madbrain> argh, unpredictable crashed :( :( :(
03:36:50 <fax> madbrain http://pastie.org/650996
03:36:56 <fax> I modified the interpreter slightly
03:37:26 <fax> well I also put my program in there you can try it out
03:37:35 <fax> that was bloody hard :D
03:38:55 <fax> the program uses church numerals to loop
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03:42:14 <madbrain> yeah this is like reading a solid block of unlambda :D
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05:21:03 <zzo38> Why did freenode-connect send a VERSION request twice?
05:22:04 * oerjan doesn't remember seeing that
05:24:45 <oerjan> oh wait yes, during netsplits i think
05:25:06 <zzo38> Problems don't just solve themself, you know.
05:25:25 <zzo38> I know why many people don't like GPL, it is because GNU GPL is very communist.
05:25:39 <zzo38> GPL v3 is even more communist, but I don't have the problem.
05:25:46 <zzo38> I am fine with that.
05:27:11 <zzo38> And I haven't had problems with forking GPL'd projects. (That is, as long as the program runs!)
05:27:32 <zzo38> But sometimes I write short programs (or some others) in public domain, instead.
05:30:09 <zzo38> Now you can see, how, maintaining a GPL'd project is not too difficult, here is a forked project so you can see by example: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
05:30:51 <zzo38> The time on my computeris many minutes off.
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05:33:00 <zzo38> I have never seen keyboard with backspace below tab. But I think some space cadet keyboards have RUB OUT below tab, however.
05:33:31 <zzo38> Have you ever used any space cadet keyboards?
05:35:07 * oklokok is tempted to say "DON'T YOU MEAN UNDERLOAD, MADBRAIN", but it would make no sense because madbrain isn't oerjan.
05:35:43 <zzo38> DON'T YOU MEAN UNDERLOAD,OKLOKOK
05:36:19 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/images/SpaceCadet1.jpeg
05:36:42 <zzo38> O, OK, you always mean underload.
05:40:18 <oklokok> yeah, except when i mean unlambda
05:40:35 <oklokok> because i always mean underload
05:42:39 <zzo38> So sometimes you mean both?
05:45:48 <oklokok> no no sometimes i mean unlambdad
05:46:06 <madbrain> hmm, only some bf programs work :(
05:46:54 <zzo38> Some brainfuck programs require values wrapping 0-255
05:47:10 <zzo38> While others are universal
05:47:15 <madbrain> actually I think wrapping 0-255 should actually work
05:48:07 <zzo38> Fix your interpreter, try that. You can also add debug codes to see how much memory is needed, too, if you want to do that.
05:50:30 <madbrain> also it does not support comments
05:51:18 <madbrain> I wonder if the programs expect 255 or 0 for EOF
05:51:27 <zzo38> Usually 0 for EOF, I think.
05:52:14 <zzo38> Some programs also work with no-change on EOF, some require 0 for EOF. Some might use 255 for EOF but I have not seen much of these
05:52:22 <zzo38> OK, then set 255 for EOF
05:52:48 <zzo38> Some brainfuck interpreters have command-line parameter to select the modes
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05:55:42 <madbrain> like, if the brackets are mismatched it will probably generate some horrible functionnal mes
05:56:18 <zzo38> All valid programs should have matched brackets anyways
06:00:09 <madbrain> haha this fibonacci program is getting progressively slower
06:00:26 <zzo38> The megazeux.4th file is public domain, however. (It consists mostly of over one hundred constants)
06:00:52 <zzo38> If the fibonacci programs uses infinite size numbers, it is supposed to get progressively slower, isn't it?
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06:05:27 <madbrain> yeah ok this interpreter works :D
06:05:58 <madbrain> but since most programs have newlines/comments/etc you have to edit them to remove that :D
06:16:14 * Sgeo got a Google Wave invite :D
06:28:07 <madbrain> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar#Brainfuck_interpreter Yes :D
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07:38:26 <ehird> 09:02:34 <SimonRC> http://fof.durge.org/~sc/invite_only/langs.png
07:38:56 <ehird> 16:42:24 <fax> Ilari I wonder if there's a proof of that which you could use to construct a quine for arbitrary languages
07:44:25 <ehird> 17:27:17 <oerjan> we also had a discussion on the wiki when someone tried to construct a tc language without a quine. it depends subtly on how you define "unrestricted output"...
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07:44:46 <ehird> indeed, you must be able to print any computable translation of program state
07:46:51 <ehird> although, well, we should define it based on turing machines
07:46:57 <ehird> any turing-computable translation of any turing state
07:47:07 <ehird> so if you can't print out a certain register, that's fine, just emulate a turing machine
07:47:20 <ehird> ofc that fails for sub-tc languages, but "eh"
07:47:51 <coppro> hmm... having a TC language without a quine would be an interesting feat
07:48:10 <coppro> does BF have a known quine?
07:48:23 <bsmntbombdood> i heard you like turing machines so a put a turing maching in your turing machine so you can compute while you compute
07:48:41 <ehird> 21:25:25 <zzo38> I know why many people don't like GPL, it is because GNU GPL is very communist.
07:48:42 <ehird> (a) totally wrong, it is not communist
07:48:42 <ehird> (b) I dislike the GPL for entirely different reasons, TYVM
07:48:59 <coppro> there shouldn't be anything theoretically requiring tc languages to have quines... but hmm
07:49:15 <ehird> 21:30:09 <zzo38> Now you can see, how, maintaining a GPL'd project is not too difficult, here is a forked project so you can see by example: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
07:49:15 <ehird> Nobody ever said it was difficult; people have philosophical objections to doing such a thing, howeveer.
07:49:41 <bsmntbombdood> seems obvious that any tc language with output has a quine
07:49:52 <ehird> o"x", output constant string x
07:50:07 <ehird> you need the finicky definition that you must be able to transform state into output arbitrarily
07:50:17 <ehird> but not all state is required, just enough to use all the computational powers of the language
07:50:19 <ehird> it's *very* subtle
07:50:42 <ehird> congrats, you just offloaded the problem to defining output in a retarded way
07:50:56 <ehird> which is... distinct from providing a definition of "IO-complete"
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08:00:05 <ehird> "Bill O'Reilly: Why Obama's Nobel Prize, Deserved or Not, Is Good for America" // well... that's... an unexpected sentiment
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08:44:31 <ehird> Free market economics: "I define theft to include taxes, and therefore taxes are theft, which is immoral and cannot be supported under any circumstances."
08:45:37 <ehird> (Usually followed up with, as in this depressingly-stereotypical case, "Also, if you're rich you're hardworking and manly! And the rich have no problem with the poor, the poor just keep themselves poor BECAUSE THEY WON'T WORK HARD.")
08:49:46 <ehird> "Old versions (i.e., anything before 19.29) of GNU Emacs had problems editing files larger than 8 megabytes."
09:03:33 <fizzie> 19.28 translates to November 1994; that's not so crazy-old.
09:10:11 <ehird> Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping, Nine Megabytes And A Crash.
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09:12:59 <fizzie> Well, you have to compare and contrast that to other state-of-the-art high-end for-professional-use-only text editors. Say, Notepad, with its 64K file size limit.
09:14:08 <fizzie> Maybe not Notepad in 1994, come to think of it.
09:15:50 <fizzie> I don't quite remember whether Write had some arbitrary size limits.
09:17:04 <ehird> 8 megabytes... so tiny
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09:22:26 <fizzie> It's a megabyte, it's by definition not tiny.
09:22:41 <ais523> wow, you're here early...
09:23:26 <ehird> ais523: got up at 1am, heh.
09:23:32 <ehird> well, woke at 1am, got up at 2am.
09:23:57 <ehird> feels like 9am though.
09:24:08 <fizzie> Oh, right, I was wondering the one day about ehird's education. I mean, shouldn't you be having some sort of imposed schedules because of related activities or something? I understand that's customary.
09:24:27 <ehird> i am crazy good at slinging things
09:24:44 <ais523> gah, why is the local bus service website at .com?
09:25:04 <ehird> because .com is memorable
09:25:27 <fizzie> Yes, it evokes all those "dot-com crash" connotations immediately.
09:25:45 <ais523> a local bus service, which is confined by definition to the area around Birmingham and therefore to the UK
09:25:55 <ais523> should clearly be at .co.uk; .com makes absolutely no sense there
09:26:00 <ais523> and how am I meant to guess it?
09:26:01 <ehird> .com is memorable to people
09:26:15 <ehird> nobody cares what you can remember after forgetting because you're a tiny %
09:26:36 <ehird> .com or .co.uk are memorable, .com is likely the first thing someone who only remembers the other bit to try
09:26:40 <ais523> ehird: http://networkwestmidlands.com/BusReview/Bus_Routes_and_Changes.aspx is the page I'm looking at now
09:26:55 <ais523> they're busy messing with all the bus routes
09:27:03 <ais523> in a way that is mostly very sensible, but very annoying to me
09:27:18 <ehird> well, that's your problem :P
09:27:38 <ais523> could make it harder to get in in the morning, though
09:27:48 <ais523> I now definitely need two busses, or a lot of walking, no matter which way I go
09:28:15 <ais523> and I'm going to need a new bus map
09:28:31 <ais523> I'm particularly annoyed because I tried to get a special sort of bus pass specifically to allow for potential changes
09:28:34 <ais523> and it turned out it didn't exist
09:29:34 <ehird> maybe you could try something other than a bos
09:29:39 <ehird> ((like a public hovercraft))
09:30:33 <ehird> i'm petitioning the guvvmn't to make a public hovercraft service
09:31:11 <fizzie> Speaking of TLDs and bus companies; there's this Finnish company (Matkahuolto) who operate between-cities bus stations and therefore are the logical place to look for tickets and schedules for any "not-internal" bus lines. They have two websites; a .com for the company (for freight delivery services and stuff like that), and .info for consumers-looking-for-bus-schedules.
09:31:41 <fizzie> The word "hovehird" sounds funny.
09:31:48 <ehird> I wonder if dis.info is registered; that's a rather ridiculously obvious domain.
09:31:52 <ehird> No HTTP, at least.
09:32:15 <ehird> Registrant Organization:the disinformation company ltd.
09:33:24 <fizzie> They do have a HTTP-answering server at disinfo.com.
09:34:32 <fizzie> Why does that nic.info whois say "Expiration Date 01-Aug-2006 17:00:42 UTC" for dis.info.
09:35:39 <ehird> It's disinfo, duh.
09:35:55 <fizzie> There's also a trademark claim registered in there; "dis" as the US trademark number 2218816.
09:35:56 <ehird> From the monopolistic registration cartel of the domain registrars.
09:38:48 <fizzie> They are being very disinformational, since the actual 2218816 trademark is for the word "disinformation", not "dis".
09:39:31 <ais523> isn't Dis a variant of Malbolge?
09:39:54 <ehird> First suggestion for "is hir" on the google: "is hiroshima still radioactive".
09:41:16 <fizzie> Second suggestion for plain old "is ": "is she going out with him". Is that some sort of proper noun for something? It doesn't sound a very productive question to ask Google, especially like that with no names.
09:41:42 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=is+she+going+out+with+him&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g4
09:42:03 <fizzie> Yes, I forgot it when typing it here.
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12:34:47 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/648/
12:34:52 <ehird> ↑ still not funny.
12:38:07 <oklopol> that's not just not funny, that's plain retarded, foliage is one of the most beautiful sights there is
12:38:26 <ais523> my issue is not with looking at beautiful foliage, but insisting on taking photos of it
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12:40:08 <oklopol> well yeah, *that's* a valid point.
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13:05:31 <ehird> ais523: what's wrong with taking photos
13:05:41 <ehird> you don't think the point is to actually look at generic photos of foliage, do you?
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13:09:41 <ehird> [13:05] ehird: ais523: what's wrong with taking photos
13:09:41 <ehird> [13:05] ehird: you don't think the point is to actually look at generic photos of foliage, do you?
13:10:08 <ais523> it's just, so many people seem to take loads of photos, then forget about htem
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13:10:14 <ais523> possibly putting them on Facebook in the meantime
13:10:22 <ais523> you can't capture a moment by using a camera, it doesn't work
13:10:40 <ehird> you can't, but you can capture a trigger for a vague memory of one for your recall later
13:11:02 <ehird> and people either take photos for that, or because they see something that strikes them as a good photo; overwhelmingly commonly the former
13:11:13 <ehird> the facebooking is just because facebook promotes a weird social environment.
13:11:30 <ehird> but yeah, people do take too many photos. it's because it's too easy and they have no discretion
13:11:57 <ehird> there have only been a few handfuls of photos of me for many years...
13:12:11 <ais523> I don't understand Facebook at all; it seems like the sort of thing that isn't designed for me to understand
13:13:03 <ehird> Facebook today is nothing like Facebook was then. Facebook today is a "safe internet"; only your friends see things, everything is only a few clicks away, and it generally feels like a "border" around the internet; you can be comfortable inside and do internetty stuff
13:13:23 <ehird> this fails horribly because people are stupid and have no discretion. also, the idea of a second internet where facebook knows all your shit is wrong, just wrong.
13:13:37 <ehird> but it makes people happy.
13:13:49 <ehird> it's easy enough to understand, it's just not easy to like.
13:13:49 <ais523> oh, and here this was me thinking it was a method of sharing photos and of sending messages if you didn't understand email
13:14:02 <ehird> you forgot the quiz applications.
13:14:13 <ehird> or the supermegapoke applications! annoy people with 10 new ways.
13:14:22 <ais523> ehird: I assume that sort of thing will pervade anything on the Internet, and isn't facebook-specific
13:14:29 <ehird> except they fill up your stream
13:14:54 <ehird> "Shitfaced Retard poked you with a cake! [Please God Let Me Murder This Person] [Why Oh Why]"
13:15:08 <ehird> "Person did a quiz! WHY DON'T YOU DO THIS QUIZ? You can view our ads."
13:15:16 <ehird> "Thing you actually care about"
13:16:25 <ais523> don't all the successful Facebook apps require you to forward them to 20 friends before giving you the results of the quiz, or whatever?
13:16:55 <ehird> "IAMA psychic medium" no you're not
13:17:33 <ehird> ais523: anyway, facebook has nothing of value to anyone who isn't interested in the bullshit parts of social interactions multiplied because they're only a click away, combined with the popular function of the internet among most people that causes them to become idiots
13:17:52 <ehird> and who doesn't need a sense of false security because it's only going to do anything to people on your friends list
13:19:13 <ais523> in other words, it only annoys people you care about
13:19:42 <ehird> and they give their info to facebook, view ads and nowadays occasionally even pay for doing so
13:19:47 <ehird> brilliant, isn't it?
13:20:17 <ais523> I know some of my friends are trying to persuade me to create a Facebook account, but I'm ignoring them
13:21:07 <ehird> ais523: the fact that they're trying it enough to show up on your persuade-radar shows that you have a less ridiculous social channel anyway :P
13:21:27 <ais523> ehird: more the fact that I drifted out of touch with them for 4 years
13:21:34 <ais523> and only met back up with them due to randomly encountering them in a pub
13:21:54 <ehird> kind of hard to drift away on facebook, you're bombarded with them until you defriend, at which point they get upset
13:22:18 <ehird> which right off the bat makes it useless in the long term
13:22:28 <ais523> maybe that's why it has so much short-term staying power, come to think of it
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13:53:14 <fizzie> I got harassed enough to make a Facebook account, but I can't say I've quite gotten "into" it; especially the applications part seems to make no sense.
13:54:07 <fizzie> "<name redacted> found a sad Ugly Duckling on their farm. Oh no!
13:54:07 <fizzie> <name redacted> was farming when a sad, Ugly Duckling wandered onto their farm in FarmVille. This poor ducky ran away from his old home because the other ducklings made fun of him. He feels very sad and could use a new home. [Comment] [Like] [Adopt the Duckling!]"
13:54:35 <ehird> [Murder <name redacted>]
13:56:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: I just don't see the point of it, I guess.
13:56:30 <fizzie> I mean, what does it even mean? What happens if I click there?
13:56:46 <fizzie> Does somehow a duckling pop out of my monitor or what?
13:58:01 <Deewiant> More likely, it'll start up Farmville and get you playing.
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14:34:48 * ehird is moving in... uh... less than an hour?
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14:35:31 <ehird> you may all call me "mr really-obscure-village-near-hexham-but-nearer-prudhoe"
14:35:35 <ehird> or "john", for short
14:37:05 <fizzie> I mean no disrespect, but that sounds so backwards. Are you going to start raising sheep there or something?-)
14:37:39 <ehird> Anyway, Prudhoe is like 5 minutes away from it, so it's not exactly isolated.
14:37:56 <ehird> Just think of it as, you know, a sun flare. Except it's a ... place thing.
14:38:03 <ehird> Pthing: no, my mother was raised there though.
14:38:37 <Pthing> (i don't know the area, i am just reading out places from this map here)
14:39:02 <ehird> it's smaller than both. although i attended broomhaugh's ... wtf, I've forgotten what the name of the school-before-middle-schools are.
14:39:07 <ehird> i have a bad memory when I'm a bit sleepy
14:39:17 <ehird> it isn't called that here iirc
14:39:40 <ehird> hey i'm not a geordie, I was born in the south!
14:39:48 <fizzie> Your names, they are more awesomer than ours. "Broomhaugh".
14:39:50 <ehird> not that i stayed there for any appreciable amount of time, mind
14:40:28 <ehird> Pthing: anyway up the zoom level a few times :P
14:41:25 <ehird> (It's small enough that I thought I found a single relevant google result, but it was about *another* tiny village with the same name...)
14:42:25 <ehird> no, it's not """carlisle"""
14:42:39 <Pthing> man fuck this i'm not reading every fuken little burg in northumbria out
14:42:53 <ehird> THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM
14:43:06 <ehird> anyway it doesn't have a phone line, so I'm going to have a fun day in Buying a 3G Modem Stick Thing land
14:43:40 <fizzie> Does it have this "running water" thing?
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14:44:00 <ehird> I gather that is the case.
14:44:21 <ehird> Also, eel-ectrissy-tee.
14:44:29 <ehird> I don't know what that is, but I think I like eels.
15:00:35 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: Never am. <-- what I wanted to say was that it is a catastrophe that Gentoo marked KDE 4.3.1 as stable...
15:01:57 <ehird> hi, i'm tired and moving
15:02:11 <ehird> also, what's wrong with marking kde 4.3.1 as stable
15:02:19 <ehird> is there some rule that kde 4 can never ever be stable
15:03:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well for example it is still not usable in many aspects. Like konsole.
15:03:19 <AnMaster> konsole in KDE 4 lacks the option to make bold look as bright.
15:03:31 <AnMaster> effect is horrible with that control code as bolder text
15:03:48 <AnMaster> (oh and the spec allows either bold or intensified btw)
15:03:59 <AnMaster> konsole from kde 3 has the option
15:04:20 <AnMaster> yes there is an open bug report. Developer show unwillingness even with attached patches.
15:04:34 <ehird> "i don't like a design decision, therefore it is unstable"?
15:04:40 <ehird> remarkably egocentric
15:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, how is dumbing down the interface and making the software ugly a "design decision".
15:05:32 <ehird> ooh, "my opinions are universal syndrome", i guess you suffer from hypocrititis too, since, you know, you accuse me of suffering form it
15:05:43 <ehird> especially about such a minor cosmetic aspect
15:05:47 <AnMaster> and unstable as in "not a possible replacement for current stable version"
15:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also there are quite a long CC list on that bug.
15:06:03 <AnMaster> and there are lots of other issues.
15:06:31 <ehird> so i ask for an issue, you give me a subjective cosmetic issue that clearly the devs disagree with, and then a vague "lots of other issues", and therefore it doesn't count as stable (which = stable, not thing i like)
15:06:44 <ehird> i think i'll stop making fun of you, too easy these days
15:19:15 <ehird> fizzie: are those 3g stick things any good?
15:19:20 <ehird> technically this one is faster than 3g, apparently.
15:19:30 <ehird> so it'll be on some carrier-specific band, no doubt
15:20:35 <fizzie> Well, "3G" is a matter of definition. And it's pretty carrier-dependant, or so I hear. Certainly they're good enough for web-surfing, but more interactive things might be slightly painful.
15:20:46 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:21:02 <ehird> 3.6Mb/s, apparently. Which will be, uh, less so, indoors, in a village.
15:21:11 <ehird> Also, less so due to likely being almost a lie.
15:22:02 <ehird> This one's technically pay as you go, but it came with £15 = 15Gb (or GB or GiB? Who knows?) so that's better than all the monthly ones, at least if you're only using it for a month or less, which applies in this case (a week or so until the phone line is up)
15:22:20 <fizzie> Yes; their goodness depends quite a lot on how lucky you happen to be when it comes to base station locations.
15:23:33 <ehird> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/255588/fun_with_an_old_hardrive/
15:23:55 <fizzie> 3.6 Mb/s sounds like the slower HSDPA theoretical-maximum (the faster one is 7.2 Mbps), which I think is even almost attainable in the real world. Though I don't have much hands-on experience with actual speeds, given that my contract is only for the slowest possible 384 kbps speed.
15:24:04 <ehird> fizzie: The other networks say "no, you cannot get it there" apart from 3, who say "you can get it... outdoors".
15:24:16 <ehird> But vodafone are all, you know, hippie and loving of that postcode.
15:24:21 <ehird> "Yo, inside, sure!"
15:24:28 <ehird> "Maaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn."
15:25:10 <fizzie> You can improve things a lot with an external antenna, but on the other hand, really, a week is not a very long time.
15:25:38 <ehird> Packing my vital stuff to move now. Will get the rest Some Other Time(TM).
15:26:08 <ehird> Better turn this off. See you all in... some time!
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16:20:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> Packing my vital stuff to move now. Will get the rest Some Other Time(TM).
16:23:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: See logs about 1h50m ago.
16:27:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long before his landline is back up+
16:27:18 <Deewiant> 2009-10-12 17:26:08 ( ehird) Better turn this off. See you all in... some time!
16:27:32 <AnMaster> hm I thought he might have said it but I skipped the relevant line
16:28:37 <AnMaster> considering how horribly slow surfing through GPRS (err actually not that, nor 3G, but something in between forgot the name of it) is.
16:28:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:28:45 <AnMaster> sure 3G would be better, but not that much better
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17:30:40 <fax> is it true that wolfram made a backup of your brain and patented it??
17:30:53 <fax> I heard that's how alpha works
17:32:20 <ais523> nah, it just lists Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica as sources, then displays the wrong info even though the sources have the right info
17:32:26 <ais523> `wolfram Birthdate of Jimmy Wales
17:32:50 <HackEgo> Birthdate of Jimmy Wales \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Jimbo Wales \ Result: \ \ date of birth \ \ August 7, 1966 \ Date formats: \ \ 08 07 1966 month day year \ Time in 1966: th \ \ 219 day \ \ Observances for August 7, 1966 United States : \ \ no official holidays or major observances \ Notable events for August 7,
17:32:55 <ais523> heh, it was just being slow
17:33:20 <ais523> also, looks like the Alpha people have corrected it
17:33:23 <ais523> it was a day out last time I checked
17:34:15 <fizzie> You probably meant EDGE there.
17:36:10 <fax> wolfram alpha isn't sure what to do with your input
17:36:12 <fizzie> And original "3G" is that 384 kbps which is not much better; but HSDPA goes up to 3.6 Mbps / 7.2 Mbps, and HSPA+ to something like 20-40 Mbps theoretically. From what I hear, it's perfectly possible to web-surf with those connections without too much pain, though I guess SSH is still not so fun, thanks to the over-the-average latencies.
17:36:14 <fax> `wolfram alpha isn't sure what to do with your input
17:36:55 <HackEgo> speed of 3G \ \ Input information: \ \ magnetic induction radius electric charge mass \ \ 3 gauss 28 cm centimeters 1.6 10 \ 19 \ \ C coulombs \ 27 \ \ 1.671 10 \ \ kg kilograms \ \ Radius for the circular orbit of a charged particle in a magnetic field: \ \ speed \ \ 8.043 km s kilometers per second 8043 m s meters
17:37:15 <fizzie> Okay, so with a modern 3G connection you can download at 8.043 km/s.
17:37:21 <fizzie> That's not too shabby.
17:37:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:38:36 <fizzie> (And the "You" a couple of minutes back was of course to AnMaster, I can just never remember the attributions.)
17:39:38 <ais523> does anyone here know how to boot Windows 7 in safe mode?
17:43:41 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Okay, so with a modern 3G connection you can download at 8.043 km/s.
17:44:08 <fizzie> See the W|A query above.
17:44:10 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't it be F8 during boot?
17:44:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I already tried that
17:45:20 <ais523> I'll try tapping F8 rather than holding it down this time
17:46:44 * ais523 resorts to the traditional tactic of cutting the power during boot
17:46:52 -!- ehird has joined.
17:47:17 <ehird> Sure, the computer is moved; what more does one need?
17:47:26 <ehird> Hello from a 3G thingy!
17:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, when will you get landline?
17:47:44 <ehird> IT IS REASONABLY FAST IN FACT
17:47:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Like a week or so.
17:48:02 <ehird> This room is nice.
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17:48:50 * ehird breaks the news to a friend after having only mentioned it the first time some days ago and not mentioning it since by saying "Hi! We moved."
17:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, how long ago did you learn this?
17:49:42 <ehird> It's been rather sudden indeed.
17:50:24 <AnMaster> when I moved last time I knew it months in advance (though that was mostly because it needed a lot of renovation before moving in was possible)
17:50:53 <ehird> The layout of the two rooms I've taken hostage of are quite amenable to having lots of stuff in them, which is nice.
17:51:20 <ehird> (One of the rooms is admittedly quite small to count as a peer to the other; I'm in it now because it has a desk as opposed to a wooden chair, which is a more useful single piece of furniture.)
17:51:36 <ehird> (Technically it has a filing cabinet too, and a storage unit thing in the wall.)
17:54:01 <ais523> ah, apparently you press F8 on the bootloader screen
17:54:08 * pikhq congratulates ehird on having priorities straight.
17:54:08 <ais523> which could be pretty tricky using GRUB, I suppose
17:54:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, the browsing experience is perfectly fine thankyouverymuch.
17:54:25 <ehird> Latency is big, obviously, but reddit loads snappily in fact.
17:54:25 -!- coppro has joined.
17:54:32 <ehird> So "<pause> Bing!"
17:54:40 * ehird tries speedtest.net
17:54:46 <ehird> Probably against the ToS :P
17:55:10 <ehird> It's much, much better than GPRS, anyway.
17:55:14 <ais523> next problem: how do you see your MAC address in Windows 7?
17:55:20 <ais523> (without admin access?)
17:55:24 <ehird> Download a third-party tool, I'd imagine.
17:55:49 <fizzie> It used to be something like "ipconfig /all" in the cmd.exe.
17:55:49 <ais523> then I'd have to persuade the support staff to let me run it
17:55:51 <fizzie> But I have no clue about win7.
17:57:19 <fizzie> Someone on a Windows 7 forum is saying it's still there; and you can run "cmd" from the start menu to get the shell if there's no icon there any more.
17:57:32 <ehird> 0.64Mb/s download, that's not so bad.
17:57:46 <ehird> I mean, that's perfectly acceptable for web browsing, even non-HD YouTube.
17:57:58 <ais523> gah, why can Windows terminals not be resized to more than 80 columns wide/
17:58:08 <ehird> "Upload speed: 0.05 Mbps"
17:58:20 <ehird> ais523: they can be
17:58:27 <ehird> you can't resize it bigger than it is with the resize widget
17:58:30 <ehird> you have to change the terminal settings
17:58:50 <ais523> you're right, there's a dialog box to resize the window
17:58:52 <fizzie> From what I hear, on the metropolitan area here you can sort-of count on getting one megabit (as long as the 3G modem is not completely stupid), but anything above that seems to be mostly a matter of luck.
17:58:58 <ais523> next up: surely that was harder than just letting it work?
17:59:26 <ehird> ais523: Well, programs can mess with it and such.
17:59:28 <fizzie> Console windows are a pretty special class of a window, I think.
17:59:38 <ehird> So restricting the view is easy enough, but expanding it more of a "beefy" operation.
18:00:02 <ehird> fizzie: Well, 0.64Mb/s indoors in a village with bad coverage; that's really very good.
18:00:42 <ehird> Admittedly the window is open.
18:01:07 <ais523> fizzie: "physical address" from ipconfig = MAC address?
18:01:11 <ehird> I will now proceed to be an irritating asswipe. You know, like before.
18:01:16 <fizzie> ais523: I think so, yes.
18:01:17 <ehird> Except from a more peaceful location.
18:01:29 <fizzie> And yes, around here things drop very easily from HDSPA to plain 3G to EDGE to even plain GPRS when you take a few steps off a city-class (though a Finnish "city" is not that big) area.
18:01:30 <ais523> fizzie: let's hope this works, then
18:01:35 <ehird> And, soon, with five metric fucktons more desk space!
18:01:53 <ehird> fizzie: Ever to GSM? :P
18:02:18 <fizzie> I don't think you can find a non-GPRS GSM base station anywhere any longer, but I could be wrong.
18:02:24 <fizzie> And I always write it "HDSPA" when it's "HSDPA", which is stupid, since the HS is from High-Speed.
18:02:36 <ehird> Eh, this connection is of course annoying to someone used to 8Mb/s, but it *is* just for a week or so.
18:02:48 <ehird> I mean, annoying for non-textual webpages, or textual webpages with an awful lot of cruft.
18:03:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> I mean, that's perfectly acceptable for web browsing, even non-HD YouTube. <-- what about HD youtube though?
18:03:22 <ehird> Do you think I might have answered that in the statement you quoted with that explicit qualification?
18:04:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it could mean "but I haven't yet tested HD videos"
18:04:21 <AnMaster> or "HD videos seems to not work well"
18:04:30 <ehird> I was commenting purely from the speed; obviously half a megabit is not enough to do HD YouTube.
18:05:18 <ais523> wow, Windows 7 shuts down amazingly fast from safe mode
18:05:21 <ais523> in about half a second
18:05:26 <ais523> presumably, it doesn't have anything to unload
18:05:31 <ais523> so it's just an HD sync required
18:06:34 <ehird> " You are not able to access this service because Content Control is in place.
18:06:34 <ehird> If you're 18 years or over, you can remove Content Control by contacting your mobile service provider's customer support
18:06:44 <ehird> i clicked a reddit link dude, admittedly to the same site as my carrier
18:06:56 * ehird googles "hardcore porn" to see if it's filtering everything
18:07:09 <ehird> Okay, that's allowed
18:07:47 <ehird> hahaha a proxy is blocked, ok better contact these shitfuck censors
18:10:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also you can't remove that since your are younger than 18 :P
18:10:16 <ehird> "Do a slow thing." Or, you know, just get a parental overlord(TM) to get them to remove them.
18:10:19 <AnMaster> and good luck getting your parents to do it
18:10:23 <ehird> AnMaster: MY EYES ARE 18
18:10:32 <ehird> Also, it's filtering patently non-NSFW things.
18:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and... how can you possibly hope to convince your parents about it
18:11:03 <AnMaster> if you do, you must have rather unusual parents.
18:11:37 <ehird> "It's blocking random links because it mistakenly thinks they're over-18 only" seems like a rather sane reason to remove an arbitrary blocking filter.
18:11:50 <ehird> I mean, if anyone actually cared they'd set up Net Nanny or whatever bullshit software is popular today.
18:11:58 <ehird> Not like the wired connection has this.
18:15:32 -!- ehird_ has joined.
18:16:05 <ehird_> Reopening the shitty control panel thing I killed made it all go haywire, heh. :P
18:17:15 <Ilari> You didn't know that installing any "driver CD" bundled with any device is bad idea? :-)
18:17:31 <ehird_> Ilari: Considering that it contained the *actual drivers for the modem*, I kinda think it was a good idea.
18:17:34 <ehird_> You know... on balance.
18:17:49 <ehird_> The crap is all neatly contained in one or two apps, anyway.
18:18:33 <fizzie> Ilari: Sometimes you have no choice. On Ubuntu I got the 3G stick working just fine, but on OS X it won't work with just the modem drivers; I need to run some sort of weird horribly ugly Vodafone app to init the card, feed in the SIM card PIN, then wait for the app to go all "hey, this is not a Vodafone SIM" and quit; after that I can use the standard OS X dialler to connect.
18:18:45 <ehird_> Hey, it's Vodafone and OS X for me too!
18:18:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, btw, does it work under your linux install
18:19:01 <ehird_> Ubuntu probably has an automagic thing for it.
18:19:12 <ais523> fizzie: are you actually on Vodafone?
18:19:19 <ais523> I'm not sure if saying yes or no would be funnier there
18:19:28 <fizzie> ais523: No, but Vodafone issues (at least to some customers) the same hardware.
18:19:36 <ehird_> Why would yes be funny?
18:19:44 <ais523> ehird_: Vodafone being unable to detect their own SIMs
18:19:56 <ehird_> the SIM was already in there for me
18:20:18 <ehird_> I'm a bit tired, and wasn't really paying attention, so no.
18:21:07 <fizzie> Ilari: Admittedly the equally ugly Elisa (local ISP/phone company) app/driver combination that came with the stick (directly on the stick; it pretends to be a USB memory stick before you toggle a bit to make it look like a modem) made my OS X installation unbootable, so...
18:21:52 <Ilari> fizzie: Stuff like that is why I won't trust such stuff.
18:22:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:22:20 <ehird_> Ilari: It's all very well and good not trusting it, but if you actually want to, you know, use the stick...
18:23:13 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:23:13 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
18:28:40 -!- ehird_ has joined.
18:28:52 <ehird_> Yay, no more filterationermationitation.
18:33:15 <ehird_> It's nice to have a big window behind my desk.
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18:34:02 <Ilari> 0.05Mbps upstream? That's like 5kB/s?
18:34:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, unless he miscalculated it
18:34:28 <ehird_> AnMaster: I used speedtest.net.
18:34:38 <ehird_> Ilari: Plus, of course, 300ms ping... to the same country.
18:34:47 <Ilari> That's less than twice what analog modem could do...
18:34:59 <ehird_> Latency + slow upload is the limiting factor here; half a megabit is fine for downlloading.
18:35:13 <ehird_> AnMaster: It's called a point of comparison.
18:35:29 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:35:30 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
18:35:40 <ehird> Hmm, I do believe I just sent my password unencrypted there.
18:35:46 <ehird> Oh well, not like they care.
18:38:52 <AnMaster> ehird, sent password for what where?
18:39:28 <ehird> NickServ (although I admit that I use it for, well... lots of things. I'm going to start using a password generator/manager real soon now, promise!), over 3G modem.
18:39:35 <ehird> Not that I don't, you know, do that with my normal ISP all the time.
18:41:53 <AnMaster> that you use the same password in more than one place? Especially for something sent unencrypted? That you say you will start to use unique passwords "real soon, promise"? The remark about the normal ISP? There were lots of reasons. Which one it really was is up to you,
18:43:35 <ehird> I fully admit I'm ridiculously cavalier about my passwords. I'm pretty sure some other person has seen this one at some point, too.
18:45:00 * Ilari has password generator which takes service name, hashes it with MD5 and password and hashes it with SHA-256. Then it runs AES 2M times using hashed password as key and hashed service name as initial value. Then it tries to invoke some Lua code to form final password (doing another AES if conversion fails)...
18:45:35 <ehird> Oh, you mean "security by LET'S JUST RUN A THOUSAND RANDOM HASHES A BILLION TIMES RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH ULTRA-ENCRYPTED"?
18:45:41 <AnMaster> ehird, oh if I ever happen to enter a password into a chat by mistake I change it *right* away. Happened once recently right after I started using synergy.
18:45:50 <ehird> AES two million times, honestly.
18:45:52 <AnMaster> (due to being at another screen that I thought)
18:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I had it on a pastebin for a time! Got it removed though.
18:46:13 <Ilari> AES 2 million times (its there to waste time).
18:46:16 <ehird> It'd take many, many days to find every place I use this password and change it.
18:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, um? does it matter? just change the passsword where it is used
18:47:11 <AnMaster> ehird, and what is your opinion on keychain apps?
18:47:24 <ehird> I guess. Eh. I don't have the brain to remember all the passwords, and post-it notes would just make me feel stupid.
18:47:28 <Ilari> Why don't windowing environments have focus lock? Application could say "no automatic focus transfer from this window".
18:47:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Keychains are wonderful.
18:47:44 <ehird> As long as they're OS-portable; pretty sure OS X's can be made to be.
18:48:23 <ehird> Anyway, my current plan is to use 1Password on OS X; it has a sleek Safari-integrated interface and all that, and can generate secure passwords with an encrypted main database. I do believe their file format is used by other things, too, or at least readable; so I'll have a backup for other OSs (where I'll just have to log in manually).
18:48:41 <ehird> Also, 1Password is available for the iPhone which means that I can still hang on to that rusty, half-broken old thing.
18:48:52 <ehird> But, you know, effort. So much of it.
18:48:56 <AnMaster> I actually just need to remember a few passphrases: keychain passphrase, login passphrase, ssh key passphrase, gpg key passphrase
18:49:01 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:49:05 <AnMaster> notice use of word passphrase, not password
18:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, "for the iPhone which means that I can still hang on to that rusty, half-broken old thing." eh
18:49:33 <ehird> Yes, I used DiceWare to make a passphrase and I still remember it; might as well disclose it as I won't use it: swamp kayo broom balled numb
18:49:37 <oklopol> are you telling us your password has spaces?
18:49:39 <ehird> AnMaster: That particular iPhone.
18:50:00 <ehird> (I decided to not use it because "balled numb" wasn't very comfortable imagery.)
18:50:01 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:50:29 <ehird> Anyway, with 1Password I should be able to just remember one password. OS X has fancy integrated ssh_agent stuff, so I should be able to key in autogenerated SSH passwords into it.
18:50:43 <ehird> That doesn't help with sudo on remote machines; not sure what to do there.
18:51:03 <AnMaster> ehird, also for passwords to put in keychain something more random is better. Like ebt98lKAMpVe1OktMnjjaW2U0 (just generated it using my normal generator script)
18:51:25 <ehird> 1Password has a whole page to configure every type of password imaginable to satisfy any pedantic web form.
18:51:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes sudo on remote machines is tricky
18:51:34 <ehird> (Window page that is.)
18:52:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and of course I use ssh_agent too, due to not wanting to type it *every* time. (especially irritating when pushing/pulling with some VCS over ssh)
18:53:07 <AnMaster> plus, I wouldn't use ssh by password
18:53:08 <ehird> Yes, but does your OS do THIS with ssh-agent?
18:53:09 <ehird> http://www.dribin.org/dave/resources/pictures/ssh_leopard_dialog.png
18:53:11 <ehird> That is, built-in.
18:53:21 <ehird> To the operating system.
18:53:34 <ehird> Comes with its ssh-agent.
18:53:45 <ehird> Well, yes, probably. :P
18:53:58 <ehird> Well, that's the useful part, really.
18:54:05 <ehird> Ubuntu and OS X are good at whole-system integration; other OSs tend not to be.
18:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, actually the way it works it is remembered until you log off
18:54:26 <ehird> That's rather arbitrary.
18:54:37 <AnMaster> ehird, probably a setting somewhere
18:54:44 <AnMaster> anyway I would prefer it to auto lock after a few minutes
18:54:50 <AnMaster> would be better on laptop especially
18:55:21 <ehird> Anyway, post-1Password I should only have to change a few passwords in the case of a leak, and they'll all have the same contents: machine passwords, 1Password master password, ...can't think of anything else.
18:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? can't think of more than one master password?
18:57:15 <ehird> The machine password = the 1Password master password, since there's no point remembering two.
18:57:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with the built in key chain in OS X though
18:57:41 <AnMaster> and does 1Password work under linux?
18:57:57 <ehird> 1Password doesn't work on Linux, but I'm pretty sure other managers can read its file type.
18:57:58 <AnMaster> what with planning to change to linux and so on
18:58:06 <ehird> (Not sure about that)
18:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, try that 3G modem under ubuntu. If it doesn't work I will be extremely surprised
18:58:51 <ehird> OS X's keychain can't generate passwords in a right-click-and-hit-1Password, and with a few clicks get a password tailored directly to that website's whims; then save it and let me click the 1P toolbar button on the website any time to log in; it can't sync to the iPhone, etc.
18:58:53 <coppro> There exist other password management systems that can be used on Linux, subject to the ever-present caveat that applications hate each other
18:58:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it probably will work.
18:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it will likely work flawlessly
18:59:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you evangelising Linux? :P
18:59:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems it didn't under OS X?
18:59:39 <ehird> coppro: Yeah; I'm pretty sure 1Password will have an export function that they like.
18:59:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Ubuntu is perfectly fine; it has some deficiencies which OS X does not and vice-versa.
19:00:00 <AnMaster> I'm just pointing out how much better that piece of hardware is likely to work
19:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird, like sucky colour management
19:00:30 <AnMaster> colorsync is wonderful whatever else you think about OS X
19:00:30 <ehird> Yees, not quite what I was thinking, but sure :P
19:00:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I imagined it wouldn't be
19:00:51 <ehird> An important point is that while GNOME is wonderful, there isn't much usable third-party software beyond that.
19:00:57 <ehird> Most of it's rather more crufty.
19:01:14 <ehird> See GNOME's definition.
19:01:27 <ehird> Whereas with OS X, sure there's a load of crap, but there is a large base of applications that are like OS X.
19:01:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably. Read the HIG; that's what's usable according to GNOME.
19:01:37 <coppro> ehird: can you please do me a favor and forward me the most recent Herald and Grand Poobah card reports? My copies appear to have vanished
19:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, is that along the lines of "if at all possible dumb down the software instead of adding a setting"
19:02:05 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but have fun with your stereotypes.
19:02:07 <ehird> coppro: sure, in a min
19:02:41 <fizzie> That's probably the "Keep It Simple and Pretty" principle, after AnMaster-interpretation.
19:02:47 <AnMaster> ehird, will you drop that 3G modem once you get land line?
19:03:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Would get a contract for laptop use.
19:03:13 <ehird> fizzie: The whole thing is focused on simplicity and learnability.
19:03:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually the gnome terminal is *more* usable than konsole in KDE 4 apart from irritating that tab bar isn't always visible
19:03:24 <ehird> Which, in practice, translates to long-term usability.
19:03:48 <ehird> I think third-party OS X developers are better at it than Apple is, tbh.
19:04:41 <ehird> (http://www.flyingmeat.com/acorn/ ;; incidentally, could this be the first photoshop-style application with a sane interface? It also has a fun "layered screenshot" feature, so you can move about windows and stuff.)
19:04:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the best apps are those that do not have steep learning curves but still offer lots of flexibility. Basically you can use a subset just fine, then you find a new feature, and wonder how you managed without it before.
19:05:20 <ehird> AnMaster: That's a wonderfully lofty goal, but cannot work in practice.
19:05:38 <Ilari> KDE4 annoyances: No KDE3-style run dialog as popup bindable to keystroke or as plasmoid. No way to configure RSS plasmoid to show what feed each item is from.
19:05:41 <ehird> Every new setting doubles the possible configurations, doubles the cognitive overhead of the configuring user; it is impossible to "hide" a preference so that it does not bother someone configuring the application.
19:05:48 <AnMaster> ehird, because I can think of some examples
19:06:03 <ehird> The double possible configurations makes maintenance difficult, leads to bitrot...
19:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and as I said, there are (IMO) a few good examples on it
19:06:46 <ehird> Basically, the effort of maintenance is large for every option; the cognitive load for the user is non-negligible (whatever you may think); and more.
19:06:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "Test suite" is a non-sequitur in ansewr.
19:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't. Because the app I'm thinking about is bash.
19:07:13 <ehird> But I'm not interested in discussing further; I know your opinion and I know that it's misguided, not backed up by the results, and without supporting logic.
19:07:29 <ehird> And I have researched this extensively, as it is one of my main fields of interest.
19:07:31 <AnMaster> you can manage fine with a subset. Yet when you learn more advanced features, you wonder how you managed without those before.
19:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so you claim it isn't true for programming languages then?
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19:07:52 <AnMaster> which is after all just a sort of program
19:08:26 <ehird> I'm not interested in continuing this conversation because I've had it at least fifty times with you and it always ends the same way; I have less boring things to do.
19:08:30 <ehird> Of course like always you'll ignore that statement...
19:09:12 <ehird> You'd be bsmntbombdood if not for the additional .
19:09:18 <AnMaster> just saying that you are a turd would do well enough
19:10:27 <ehird> So after age 18 does your maturity start devolving or something into petty insults within a year or so?
19:10:32 <ehird> Curious. Nobody ever told me.
19:10:53 <ehird> I'd respond with something equally juvenile, but at least I have the weak excuse of being 14.
19:11:28 <AnMaster> actually that was a mistranslation. /me looks for the right insult
19:11:43 <ehird> Well, you've reached a new low.
19:11:50 <ehird> Possibly enough of a low to cause this channel to reach a new low.
19:14:14 <ehird> I wonder if your mind actually has a distinction between rational argument and ad hominem. I suppose not, as you're always the first one to cross that line.
19:14:24 <ehird> Not a Finish line, but perhaps a Swedish line.
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19:35:27 <zzo38> I don't know completely about output of different program language. Some allow only numbers, and some have some characters prohibited in output. Maybe, you could make a quine with numbers
19:38:57 <ehird> 23:48:41 <ehird> 21:25:25 <zzo38> I know why many people don't like GPL, it is because GNU GPL is very communist.
19:38:58 <ehird> 23:48:42 <ehird> (a) totally wrong, it is not communist
19:38:58 <ehird> 23:48:42 <ehird> (b) I dislike the GPL for entirely different reasons, TYVM
19:38:59 <ehird> 23:48:59 <coppro> there shouldn't be anything theoretically requiring tc languages to have quines... but hmm
19:38:59 <ehird> 23:49:15 <ehird> 21:30:09 <zzo38> Now you can see, how, maintaining a GPL'd project is not too difficult, here is a forked project so you can see by example: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
19:39:00 <ehird> 23:49:15 <ehird> Nobody ever said it was difficult; people have philosophical objections to doing such a thing, howeveer.
19:39:03 <ehird> 23:49:17 <ehird> *however
19:40:18 <zzo38> O. What kind of philosophical objects did you have, anyways? Sometimes it is difficult, specifically, if the program doesn't work.
19:41:31 <ehird> I disagree with the GPL's viral nature, its overcomplexity, and the fact that it relies on a UNIX-type system to make terms like "linking" meaningful, which is shaky and not a good thing to have in a license.
19:42:10 <zzo38> Well, yes, there are a few problems with that, sometimes it is hard to completely understand in some cases.
19:42:37 <ehird> So when possible I favour contributing to and using similarly good BSD or MIT-licensed software.
19:42:46 <ehird> This is unfortunately rare, as the GPL is overwhelmingly common.
19:42:52 <zzo38> However, I don't use the GNU GPL in cases where those would probably be a problem. The megazeux.4th is public domain for this reason.
19:42:55 <ehird> But I'd use yasm over the other nasm clones.
19:43:08 <ehird> zzo38: The first two points always stand, even if the third doesn't.
19:43:57 <zzo38> Yes, it is complex. However, I think they made it this way to deal with some problems of before.
19:44:08 <zzo38> If there is a simpler way, they could try to figure something out.
19:44:43 <ehird> It's always going to be conceptually more complex compared to BSD, MIT or a null-license (basically public domain spelled out).
19:44:54 <ehird> And the first objection applies no matter how much they simplify it.
19:44:56 <zzo38> Well, yes, of course.
19:45:18 <ehird> But yeah, I don't disliike the GPL because it's communist. I don't really think it's communist at all.
19:45:24 <ehird> There's no wealth redistribution or anything.
19:45:29 <zzo38> And it is viral. But I happen to like it this way (however it might be a bit too much viral?)
19:45:29 <ehird> Even if we consider code=wealth.
19:46:56 <ehird> Yes, viral is just a matter of philosophy. I've concluded that it doesn't really help, and even if it did the detrimental effects outweigh it.
19:47:07 <coppro> I'll choose if I want a viral license or not depending on the circumstances
19:47:27 <zzo38> That's fine. But I also choose what I want depending on circumstances too, of course.
19:47:48 <zzo38> Some programs have multiple licenses you can select from.
19:47:56 <zzo38> For example, the Mozilla tri-license.
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19:48:52 <zzo38> There's also the Conkeror tri-license, which is the same as the Mozilla tri-license except that it doesn't say "or later version" explicitly. However, I think "or later version" of GPL and LGPL is implied because of the text of the LGPL.
19:48:58 <ehird> I couldn't really use a viral license without being a hypocrite, since I support the abolition of copyright. I guess MIT and BSD technically add restrictions too, but it's better than rolling your own pseudo-public-domain license.
19:49:52 <zzo38> Any new files added in Vonkeror, I have put GNU GPL v3, with an exception allowing the "workers of Conkeror" to select the old license instead.
19:51:06 <ehird> I don't think workers of Conkeror is defined enough for that to work in any way. (Also, that doesn't count as open source.)
19:51:10 <zzo38> To me, using a viral license is not that hypocrite, because it is that way simply because of copyright working, otherwise someone else can copyright it too much differently. If copyright becomes abolished I don't have any objection if viral licenses stop working because of it.
19:51:23 <ehird> Why? Quoth the OSI:
19:51:24 <ehird> 5. No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups
19:51:25 <ehird> The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons.
19:51:52 <ehird> So Vonkeror isn't actually Open Source. In fact, it couldn't be included in Debian.
19:52:08 <zzo38> It *does* allow this exception to be removed, however.
19:52:11 <ehird> (So not Ubuntu either.)
19:52:14 <zzo38> Just like any other exception
19:52:39 <zzo38> So therefore it can be made open-source with one change, by anyone who wants it to be as such.
19:52:48 <ehird> How can they remove it, though?
19:53:32 <zzo38> It seems sort of like, how someone says, they don't want to stop smoking, but they want to want to stop smoking, it just seems a bit similar logic a little bit?
19:53:35 <coppro> it's in the text of the GPL, ehird
19:53:44 <zzo38> You can remove it simply by removing that line of the text.
19:53:50 <coppro> you can add exceptions, but they can be removed by subsequent redistributors
19:53:59 <ehird> That seems ridiculous.
19:54:06 <ehird> I could publish my own Vonkeror without the restrictions and no changed code.
19:54:12 <ehird> Oops, zzo38's restrictions are now useless.
19:54:16 <zzo38> You can't add exception except in some cases.
19:54:19 <ehird> So why bother making them in the first place?
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19:54:59 <zzo38> No, you can remove the exception and license it under the GNU GPL v3, or ask the workers of Conkeror for permission and remove the exception and license under the Conkeror tri-license.
19:55:47 <ehird> I don't think that was under any doubt :P
19:57:23 <oerjan> * oklokok is tempted to say "DON'T YOU MEAN UNDERLOAD, MADBRAIN", but it would make no sense because madbrain isn't oerjan.
19:57:32 <oerjan> indeed that would be *MAD*
19:57:41 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
19:57:48 <ehird> I stole it while you were away.
19:57:55 * ehird sets up anti-stealing forcefield
19:57:58 <oerjan> no you didn't, that's another one
19:58:04 * ehird sets up anti-swatting forcefield
19:58:06 <oerjan> you're just trying to fool me
19:58:14 <ehird> It works for swatting.
19:58:30 <oerjan> alas. but don't you be too safe. SCIENCE MARCHES ON
19:58:54 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
19:59:12 <oerjan> i know, it's addictive
20:07:19 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
20:07:31 <ehird> i think mine was laced with heroin
20:07:42 <ehird> never buy fly swatters on the black market
20:07:45 <zzo38> Now I don't quite know why I set my F2 macro in IRC as :^ZDATA ^C CCUDI1 :# Appears as Jordan^M
20:07:59 <ehird> I can think of 0 reasons.
20:08:03 <zzo38> My F1 macro is set to :^ZUSER zzo38 0 0 zzo38^MNICK zzo38^M and that does make sense, however.
20:09:13 <zzo38> So, after connecting I can type in the password if required, and then push F1 and it will then start! It is much more quickly than the old way.
20:09:45 <oerjan> ehird: swatters should be bought in strange little shops that weren't there the previous day and aren't there later and have strangely exotic-looking shopkeepers.
20:10:08 <oerjan> i don't know if they're part of the black market or not.
20:10:37 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
20:10:48 <oerjan> i think that's just an afghani model
20:10:56 <zzo38> Apparently some IRC clients will not mask the password. Which ones are they, and maybe you should correct it?
20:11:15 <zzo38> At least this one does mask the password.
20:11:32 <ehird> oerjan: could you point me to one of these temporal shops.
20:11:48 <oerjan> you're probably supporting the taliban with it.
20:12:02 <zzo38> A note someone posted on a message board, I have seen: "I'm not a complete idiot - some parts are still missing."
20:12:04 <oerjan> um, no, because, you see, they've disappeared, you see?
20:12:24 <ehird> oerjan: joke, you see.
20:12:42 <ehird> found one, turns out this room is actually one
20:12:49 <ehird> a little frog is serving me
20:12:54 <ehird> ...or is this just the heroin...
20:13:02 <ehird> (ok ok so heroin wouldn't do that, but CONTINUITY man)
20:14:11 <oerjan> continuity is just a bigger fish
20:20:40 <ehird> " internet origination theories ": a discourse
20:22:07 <oerjan> the cia got the internet at roswell
20:22:37 <oerjan> and then slowly leaked it out to the military
20:28:30 <ehird> yeah just like an ethernet cable dangling from space
20:29:44 <ehird> coppro: what reports do you need?
20:29:50 <zzo38> Pushing F2 just results in a unknown command message.
20:29:55 <coppro> ehird: Herald's and Bob's Grand Poobah
20:30:06 <ehird> coppro: (you know there are online archives right btw?)
20:30:09 <zzo38> F1 results in please register only once per session
20:30:16 <coppro> ehird: yes, but I keep local copies on my laptop
20:30:24 <zzo38> But that's correct
20:30:25 <coppro> and emailing myself a faked email is too much effort
20:30:32 <zzo38> It is supposed to do that.
20:30:43 <oerjan> ehird: ok that's just because they haven't leaked the ftl communication antennas yet, they cannot find a way to make it seem non-suspicious
20:30:53 <oerjan> so they had to use cables instead
20:31:01 <zzo38> But now it means you have to disconnect to try again, and sometimes it is not necessarily how you want, especially if you want to add a password in, too.
20:31:04 <ehird> i like the idea of the whole internet being based on the one ethernet cable dangling from space
20:31:08 <ehird> still connected to a router
20:31:15 <zzo38> PASS results in the same message.
20:31:25 <ehird> it just goes up and never stops!
20:31:26 <oerjan> that's just rubbish, ehird
20:31:27 <zzo38> So, if I forget to type the password I have to try again
20:31:44 <fizzie> "# Appears as Jordan" looks very comic-chat-ish.
20:31:45 -!- zzo38 has quit ("HOW TO QUIT").
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20:32:44 <oerjan> also an ethernet cable dangling from space would be more useful as a space elevator
20:33:52 <ehird> anyway, the other end is actually inside a black hole.
20:34:21 <zzo38> And a Google search doesn't help to make a list of which IRC clients don't mask the password. Although other people have told me that some don't mask the password. But it seems to me the only reason the password should be not masked if you use netcat. Any proper IRC client should mask the password? Apparently some don't. Help me figure out which ones because I don't know
20:34:37 <zzo38> I read some article that says some people think there might not be any black holes
20:35:00 <zzo38> I forget which article
20:35:09 <coppro> ehird: btw, you never notified c-walker you were joining the zooping contract, apparently. You now need to also notify comex to join
20:35:13 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm sure there are lots of them
20:35:22 <ehird> coppro: nobody told me
20:35:31 <coppro> ehird: it's in the contract
20:35:35 <oerjan> they weren't exactly swiftly accepted to start with
20:35:36 <ehird> and i don't know how to contact c-walker, gimme email
20:35:40 <coppro> you must notify all parties; I told you c-walker was a party
20:35:44 <coppro> e's online with the nick "c-walker
20:36:19 <ehird> [20:36] ehird: i am joining/have joined the bobzooping contract; this is the notification i have to give to you to join
20:36:29 <coppro> ehird: ok. Did you tell comex_ too?
20:37:04 * oerjan realizes is second previous comment is ambiguous; it refers to the black hole doubting
20:37:12 <ehird> thanks for the opportunity to say "toodles" on irc
20:38:02 <fungot> toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles tood ...too much output!
20:44:01 <zzo38> Next time they have to draw your blood in the hospital or doctor office or in a operation, you will be forced to play mahjong and if you lose too many points then you will lose too much blood too and you will be dead
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20:57:18 <AnMaster> (that is supposed to stand for the cycle of the day or something metaphorical...)
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21:09:53 <madbr> I finished my brainfuck interpreter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar#Brainfuck_interpreter
21:11:07 <oerjan> now you are _officially_ mad ;)
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21:33:47 <Ilari> madbr: Now quine (guaranteed to exist by being TC with unrestricted output). :->
21:36:23 <FireFly> madbr, noticed that earlier today, looks nice
21:36:39 <FireFly> I'm starting to like that language
21:37:08 <Ilari> madbr: Or even crazier: self-SHA-256... :->
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21:57:02 <madbr> dunno how to write a quine
21:58:11 <Ilari> madbr: Probably quite nasty in language like that as it doesn't have any good way to represent data.
22:20:49 <madbr> ilari: well, you can represent data
22:21:07 <madbr> something like &(<,)&(<,)&(<,)&(<,)&(<,)
22:21:33 <madbr> ...&(<,)&(>,)&(>,)&(>,)&(>,)...&(>,)()
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22:31:18 <madbr> ilari: and various other similar representations made up of trees of functions
22:46:24 <Ilari> madbr: No good way to represent data. Sure, everything TC can always represent data somehow.
22:46:58 <Ilari> Heh... Lua quine I wrote ran correctly on first attempt that did syntax-check.
23:25:12 <madbr> you know what would be cool? an esoteric video game system
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23:26:46 <SimonRC> most esolangs are a bugger to write efficient code it
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00:03:16 <SimonRC> it seems to be bed-time for me
00:15:26 <madbr> well, you could make a video-game system for small games and possibly allow some more classic operations
00:32:22 <Ilari> Wow... T_c 254K superconductor. I have seen ordinary freezers that can go below that temperature...
00:36:24 <madbr> mostly you could "hardware accelerate" some graphics or sound operations, and there's ample space for craziness in there :D
00:50:05 <madbr> 254k semiconductor? what? where?
00:53:09 <coppro> or 254 K, to be pedantic
00:59:42 <madbr> wikipedia lists superconductors with temperatures up to 138k
01:00:12 <coppro> neat fact: Wikipedia does not reflect reality
01:00:59 <madbr> and I can't find a news item on it
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01:02:05 <coppro> neat fact #2: Wikinews doesn't reflect reality either
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01:05:43 <madbr> still looks a bit rough, the kind of results that need confirmation
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01:10:55 <Ilari> Well, pushing T_c higher and higher is fun. Then there are the actually useful superconductors. Like Magnesium diboride. One of the very few non-ceramic superconductors that don't need LHe cooling (LH2 cooling suffices).
01:13:46 <Ilari> Non-ceramic => No lattice to worry about.
01:17:14 <Ilari> Some wild proposals have pipe that transports both electricity and hydrogen by having MgB2 to transport electricity and use liquid hydrogen for cooling while it is being transported.
01:19:42 <Ilari> Well, there are all kinds of wild proposals that "it only takes some engineering". Including 5000km train tunnel that crosses the atlantic...
01:21:00 <Ilari> At least that wouldn't require any new materials, unlike stuff like space elevator...
01:21:23 <coppro> that's actually a brilliant idea
01:21:35 <coppro> (the superconducting hydrogen pipe)
01:22:35 <Ilari> Actually, it would be more like cable than pipe...
01:22:54 <coppro> still, it's a great idea
01:23:19 <Ilari> Wonder what B_c that superconductor would have at LH2 boiling point...
01:24:35 <Ilari> Critical magnetic flux strength.
01:26:40 <Ilari> That determines how much current superconductor can carry.
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01:58:41 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:58:46 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
02:00:22 <oerjan> madbr: i thought of a bitstring representation that should make quines easy
02:00:23 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>--. [34]
02:01:07 <oerjan> (<,$,(<,) <,$,(>,) etc...)
02:01:22 <oerjan> then you just have to pass it the function of what to do with each bit
02:04:35 <Ilari> Closely associated with quines are self-f's. Including self-hashes (program which prints hash of its source code).
02:05:17 <oerjan> then print (, the representation above for each bit, ), then the raw bitstring
02:06:44 <madbr> ah, make bit array, print encoded form and then raw form of the bitstring?
02:06:46 <oerjan> and the bitstring is the string for that printing program
02:07:48 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bf_txtgen!
02:08:20 <oerjan> coppro: it just makes a bf program to print the string you give
02:09:25 <EgoBot> 66 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>+..<----.-.>+++.>. [310]
02:10:25 <oerjan> madbr: otoh a shorter bit representation will make the quine shorter, probably
02:10:38 * Sgeo wrote something like txtgen for use with PSOX
02:10:47 <Sgeo> However, I did it crappily, with no loops
02:11:23 <Sgeo> Well, actually, it does use [-]
02:11:24 <Sgeo> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/utils/TEXT2BF.py
02:18:18 <madbr> I've never written a quine before
02:19:51 <Ilari> madbr: Writing quine in Lua is quite simple. First version that I got to syntax-check worked correctly.
02:20:17 <oerjan> Ilari: he's not writing a quine in lua, he's writing a quine in his esolang written in lua
02:21:42 <Ilari> madbr: The basic idea: Write code that takes some kind of string representation of itself, then prints that string representation as it was and then the string representation expanded into code.
02:23:48 <Ilari> madbr: Its easier to first write the code, then work backwards to encode it as data.
02:26:54 <madbr> yeah, a lua quine is not very hard: s=[[io.write("s=[".."["..s.."]".."]"..s)]]io.write("s=[".."["..s.."]".."]"..s)
02:29:07 <madbr> let's see, the symbol set is &<>,$()!?
02:29:22 <madbr> but I don't need ? so that makes it 8
02:29:59 <madbr> yeah I can represent those as (<<<,) etc
02:43:08 <madbr> yeah, I can see how you can do it, but it will generate a fairly huge program
02:46:42 * Sgeo has never written a quine before :(
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02:50:31 <oerjan> madbr: oops, that representation above should be (<&,$,(<,) <&,$,(>,) etc...)
02:51:41 <oerjan> i wasn't thinking about compressing to just commands though, just characters, since that would be easier (but more verbose)
02:52:02 <oerjan> 3 vs. 8 bits per command
02:52:03 <madbr> that's equivalent to (, , etc) no?
02:52:29 <oerjan> yes, but you need it only for printing
02:53:49 <oerjan> otherwise i guess ($,(<,) $,(>,) ...) would be more flexible
02:54:47 <oerjan> actually with your tuple closures that could work...
02:55:05 <madbr> yeah but your first idea sounded nicer
02:56:46 <oerjan> if you want to handle them three at a time, (<&,$,&&(<,)(<,)(>,) ...)
02:57:49 <oerjan> (for a whole compressed command)
02:59:06 <oerjan> !haskell map fromEnum "<>,&$!()"
02:59:11 <EgoBot> [60,62,44,38,36,33,40,41]
02:59:52 <oerjan> that is only 5 bits varying actually
03:01:41 <oerjan> (<<<,) (<<>,) etc. for your command representations
03:02:00 <oerjan> much easier to branch on
03:09:44 <madbr> it's fairly easy to do a version that prints bit per bit though
03:10:31 <oerjan> you don't have to do any explicit looping, i think
03:12:05 <madbr> print (, then enter data function with parameter=print "<&,$,(" then switch between "<" and ">" - there's only 1 bit difference! - then ",)"
03:12:56 <madbr> then print ), then enter data function again but with (!,) as a parameter :D
03:16:01 <oerjan> it's 9*8 data chars to encode one command though, so i think you can easily trade ease for compression here
03:17:11 <madbr> yeah but then I have to decode commands into particular ascii chars, which sounds like it would take more code
03:19:29 <madbr> the resulting added complexity might reduce the data compression advantage by a lot
03:20:35 <oerjan> otoh printing "<&,$,(>,)" itself is going to take some room
03:22:23 <oerjan> !(>) or !(<) for each bit in those, 4*8*9 commands
03:22:41 <oerjan> !(>,) or !(<,) for each bit in those, 5*8*9 commands
03:22:53 <oerjan> that's going to be the main part of the code
03:24:06 <Sgeo> !haskell (unsafeCoerce 5)::String
03:24:23 <Sgeo> Why is EgoBot trying to chat with me over DCC?
03:24:35 <oerjan> to give you a long error message, i presume
03:24:44 <Sgeo> An error message consisting of "b"
03:24:45 <oerjan> everything longer than 1 line is sent over DCC
03:24:47 <Sgeo> and a blank line
03:24:58 <oerjan> !haskell (unsafeCoerce 5)::String
03:25:18 <oerjan> 04:25 =EgoBot> /tmp/input.20929.hs:1:0: Invalid type signature
03:25:28 <Sgeo> I must not have gotten it soon enoguh
03:25:35 <Sgeo> Did EgoBot pm you?
03:25:40 <Sgeo> !haskell (unsafeCoerce 5)::String
03:25:48 <oerjan> DCC. i have it set up to autoaccept EgoBot
03:26:03 <Sgeo> Now I get the typesafe thingy
03:26:15 <Sgeo> Why did I get b before?
03:26:35 <Sgeo> !haskell repeat 1
03:27:02 <Sgeo> !haskell take 5 $ repeat 1
03:27:04 <oerjan> iirc EgoBot has trouble with infinite output without newlines
03:27:09 <Asztal> ghci> unsafeCoerce 5 :: String
03:27:17 <Asztal> that was sort of unexpected.
03:28:44 <oerjan> madbr: that 25920 above is my minimum estimate on the character length of the quine by this method btw
03:29:51 <oerjan> hm ! returns its argument doesn't it. so you can compress equal runs of bits fwiw
03:30:22 <oerjan> so maybe not that large
03:31:31 <oerjan> oh and maybe do something with the 3 common most significant bits
03:41:06 <madbr> the quine and the result have the same filesize - 39 276 bytes :D
03:42:11 <madbr> It turned < into > and vice versa :D
03:48:40 <oerjan> how much harder is $,(>,) i wonder, should be shorter
03:48:42 <madbr> can't see any difference in the start or end, so it probably worked :D
03:48:50 <madbr> 40006 byte quine :D
03:49:52 <Gregor> Observation: Images carefully taken losslessly will interpolate decently up to about 10x in terms of pixel count (roughly 3x each dimension)
03:49:54 <oerjan> <- windows too, but has a linux shell account when he needs it
03:50:15 <Gregor> Further observation: Images not taken losslessly will interpolate decently up to about 0.95x :P
03:50:34 <madbr> yeah it worked, it's just that the quine is too large to post on the wiki :D
03:51:32 <madbr> but yeah it uses 72 bytes of data for each original byte :D
03:53:02 <madbr> http://s.engramstudio.com/src/quineprogram.txt
03:55:24 <madbr> http://s.engramstudio.com/src/quineresult.txt
03:55:34 <madbr> yeah, I checked, there is no difference
03:56:09 <madbr> (switching between 2 notepads with the same window settings... yes I know that is incredibly ghetto :D)
04:11:21 <madbr> The quote is "Please type 'The quote is ', the quote inside quotation marks, a period and a space.". Please type 'The quote is ', the quote inside quotation marks, a period and a space.
04:13:12 <madbr> Wait, no, that doesn't work :(
04:13:21 <oerjan> you're missing the final part
04:14:19 <madbr> haha, I have a much better one :D
04:15:04 <augur> i made my first type calculator
04:15:09 <madbr> <mad> Please type this.
04:15:09 <madbr> <qualo> reduz, nobody's playing
04:15:09 <madbr> <coda> Please type this.
04:15:10 <madbr> <qualo> mad, Please type this.
04:15:12 <madbr> <reduz> Please type this.
04:15:56 <oerjan> that's a cheating quine
04:16:01 <Asztal> the dreaded IRP quine :(
04:21:31 <madbr> X is ". Type 'X is', X inside quotation marks and X.". Type 'X is', X inside quotation marks and X.
04:22:28 <oerjan> X is". Type 'X is', X inside quotation marks and X.". Type 'X is', X inside quotation marks and X.
04:24:33 <madbr> haha what language was that again :D
04:25:56 <oerjan> also very simple, functional concatenative. with text representations so quines are super easy.
04:27:19 <madbr> yeah it's a lot like the kind of language I'm trying to do
04:27:48 <madbr> especially my first one which was a stack functional language too... underload is better though :D
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06:00:13 <fizzie> There's a diff in Windows too; it's called "fc", and it's crummy, but it does compare two files.
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08:23:33 <ehird> 15:25:12 <madbr> you know what would be cool? an esoteric video game system
08:23:34 <ehird> 15:26:32 <SimonRC> not really
08:23:34 <ehird> story of asiekierka's life
08:26:52 <ehird> anyway, good morning!
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09:10:15 <ehird> "WHY Buy NEW?...When USED Will DO ! ™"
09:11:19 <ehird> I'm going to try going Dvorak cold-turkey again.
09:11:48 <ehird> First thing first, set it as part of my desktop background in the bottom-left so I can glance at it.
09:12:16 <ehird> I wonder if I should try Programmer Dvorak.
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11:07:33 <ehird> Why isn't there a USB→Bluetooth adapter? Just plug in a little stub instead of the USB cord to a device, and it's a Bluetooth device.
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11:17:09 <fizzie> There might be some problems getting power to the stub, since I think the USB specs sort of say the "host" side of the connection has to provide it.
11:19:07 <ehird> fizzie: Well, Bluetooth devices have batteries.
11:19:11 <ehird> So the little stub has batteries, obviously.
11:19:19 <ehird> So it can provide power.
11:19:31 <ehird> (Presumably different sizes for different battery capacities based on device power usage.)
11:21:23 <ehird> fizzie: Am I crazy, by the way? I have the urge to buy a $325 product and brutally hack it up to my needs, and thus of course voiding that wonderful warranty and any possibility of returning.
11:21:30 <ehird> Don't answer that, I know the answer.
11:21:54 <fizzie> Presumably you can't really fit very much power in there before the stub starts to become cumbersome, especially since wired-USB devices probably haven't really been designed with power savings in mind. I guess you could get some sort of "working" solution, but it doesn't sound so obviously marketable.
11:22:22 <ehird> Also, um, I'm pretty sure you could power most USB stuff with two AA batteries.
11:22:37 <ehird> For weeks. I'm talking stuff like keyboards and mice.
11:23:02 <ehird> (Presumably with a specially-shaped one for different types of mice :P)
11:24:55 <fizzie> I'm not so completely sure about that if the mouse in question doesn't bother with power-saving so much; wireless mice in general are a lot more aggressive in turning things off when the mouse doesn't seem to be moving. And two AA batteries sounds more in the "blob with maybe a wire" category than "small stub".
11:25:06 <ehird> Well, alright then.
11:25:20 <ehird> Anyway! Someone ask me what I want to hack up, and what the hack in question is.
11:25:46 <fizzie> I've seen at least one "make a device 'wireless'" solution in the form that there's a USB stick receiver which talks the wireless-USB standard to a four-port USB hub you can plug things in. It doesn't say in this description whether the hub is battery-provided, or whether it uses a power brick, which makes the wirelessness a bit silly.
11:26:16 <fizzie> What do you want to hack up, and what the hack in question is? (See, I can follow instructions.)
11:26:18 <ehird> Could be useful for controlling, say, a media PC in another room.
11:27:09 <ehird> fizzie: The http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm keyboard, and to add a TrackPoint (including buttons and maybe even a scroll wheel). Also, possibly replace the keyswitches with something nicer; I know they're mechanical and I don't think they're clicky, but who knows.
11:27:42 <ehird> Technically I guess it's $299, since I don't want or need hardware QWERTY/Dvorak switching.
11:31:37 <fizzie> There certainly would be ample space to stick those every-finger trackpoints oklopol wanted on that huge slate.
11:31:55 <fizzie> But yes, it sounds crazy. Wait, I wasn't supposed to answer that. Never mind.
11:32:40 <ehird> fizzie: I don't even know how I'd even think about going about doing it; I'm pretty sure I'd have to carve out the eight keys (four around each nub (two nubs, one per side))
11:33:16 <fizzie> You can melt the keys appropriately; as a bonus, it then doubles as a modern-art peice.
11:33:19 <ehird> And replacing the switches would be *major* surgery...
11:33:44 <ehird> fizzie: With rubber dome keyboards you can melt it BEYOND REPAIR.
11:33:51 <ehird> Well, that applies to all things I guess.
11:35:02 <fizzie> They could have some sort of "will it melt" youtube show, but maybe that's a bit silly, since I guess just about anything melts if you just try hard enough.
11:37:04 <ehird> Will It Eventually Disperse Into Nothingness As The Universe Further And Further Approaches Infinite Disorder
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14:13:30 <oerjan> <ehird> story of asiekierka's life
14:13:57 * oerjan looks at madbr suspiciously. or would, if he were here.
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14:33:36 <ais523> wow, they made a superconductor that works at -19 degrees C
14:37:10 <oerjan> or so they claim, i recall reddit comments casting doubt on it
14:39:05 <Ilari> And even if it was true, it might not be very useful...
14:42:41 <ais523> it's probably affected by stray magnetic fields, or whatever
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14:47:03 <oerjan> yeah that was mentioned, although it seemed even more dubious than that
14:47:44 <oerjan> someone said the graph looked like random noise rather than a successful experiment
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15:11:43 <Gregor> -NickServ- 6 failed logins since last login.
15:11:43 <Gregor> -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: GrEgOr!n=GrEg@95.235.58.21 on Oct 11 19:04:36 2009.
15:11:53 <Gregor> Apparently now that I have the nick "Gregor", people try to steal it :P
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15:49:05 <ehird> 12q33w4e5dt67y12345e6r76t87y89u9i234w5ed6fr7t78gyh8u90iJ_0Okp322222222222wsss4ed5rf6tg77hy8u99ji00ko--23w4se5drrrrrft67ghu89i0-oooop123w4e5dgt67uy89j0ik-ol=;23w4e5dt67ghu89j0iko-p=[
15:49:57 <oerjan> your ehird impersonation needs work, bot
15:50:10 <ehird> FUCK YOU AND ALL YOUR FAMILY
15:54:43 -!- coppro has joined.
16:03:10 <ehird> "The delete key is located directly above the enter key; the key normally found there is the second rightmost key on the row above it. Furthermore, this is an actual delete key, not a historically named backspace. Backspace is accessible through Fn+Delete."
16:03:26 <ehird> They seriously think Delete is more common than Backspace?
16:03:54 <ehird> Happy Hacking Keyboard.
16:04:09 <ehird> I have to research it; it has topres!
16:05:01 <ehird> http://imgur.com/cxMKL.png
16:05:51 <ehird> oerjan: Capacitive keyswitches.
16:06:02 <ehird> Combination of spring + rubber dome.
16:06:15 <ehird> Deewiant: How's those Browns, btw?
16:07:22 <oerjan> keyboard cat a few years later
16:07:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:07:43 <fax> nothing can beat humble hacker
16:07:53 <fax> best keybeard I ever saw
16:08:01 <fax> <http://www.humblehacker.com/Keyboard/>
16:08:21 <oerjan> keybeards for your wearable computer
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16:10:00 <ehird> Deewiant: I made that pic
16:10:07 <ehird> Deewiant: In the poignant guide, s/keyboard/cigarette/
16:10:15 <Deewiant> Well yes, the edit there is obvious
16:11:40 <ehird> The Humble Hacker Keyboard - geekhack forums
16:11:40 <ehird> 19 Jun 2009 ... A project that I've been working on off and on for more than a year now, the Humble Hacker Keyboard (i.e. a keyboard for humble hackers like ...
16:11:40 <ehird> geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292 - Cached - Similar -
16:11:47 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you can't call yourself humble.
16:12:12 <ehird> Nice apple.com rip, though...
16:13:06 * oerjan is far too humble to call himself humble
16:14:34 <ehird> How to beat the DataHand II Professional in cost for a keyboard: $359 Kinesis Advantage Pro + like $200 Topre keyswitches + $50 replacement ThinkPad keyboard to extract TrackPoint from + $50 same = $659. Close, close.
16:15:43 <ehird> I guess the Topres would be more like $400-$600 without a bulk deal...
16:17:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:18:39 <ehird> I should see what Apple Extended Keyboard[ II]s are going for today. Argh, I'm too addicted! Help help help help help help help help help help help help help
16:19:08 <ehird> Wow, a new AEKII with adapter for £80.
16:19:14 <ehird> Now that's something you don't see every day. Unopened...
16:19:20 <oerjan> i'm afraid the only cure is to cut off your hands. no hands, no keyboard.
16:19:54 <fizzie> Some major kbd manufacturer should randomly make a dozen keyboards that'd type "Help, I'm trapped in a keyboard factory." every time you press F7.
16:20:41 <ehird> oerjan: I'd just obsess over voice and foot interfaces.
16:20:50 <ehird> "Ooh, nice speech actuation amplifier..."
16:20:54 <fizzie> I just picked a random not-so-common key.
16:20:59 <ehird> "Hmm... more use out of the tendons? Gimme!"
16:21:32 <oerjan> ehird: hm at that point i think only buddhism helps
16:21:53 <coppro> a random, not-so-common key!
16:22:05 <ehird> oerjan: Swat him quick!
16:22:15 <ehird> DUCKS CANNOT HELP YOU
16:22:17 <ehird> THEY WILL JUST QUACK
16:22:53 <oerjan> i cannot possibly swat for a crime i do not understand
16:23:27 * oerjan swatteth coppro -----###
16:23:53 <ehird> <ducks> quack quack
16:23:58 <ehird> <ducks> quaaaaaaaaaaaack
16:24:28 * oerjan swats one of the ducks at ehird -----###
16:24:42 <ehird> I helped your swatting!
16:24:48 * ehird gets a duck to bite off oerjan's nose
16:25:17 -!- coppro has changed nick to walter.
16:25:24 <walter> neat, nick is available
16:25:31 <walter> now if only I had my bot to use it :(
16:25:33 -!- walter has changed nick to coppro.
16:25:41 <ais523> hmm... people here, try to guess which language the code I've been asked to maintain is written in
16:25:57 <ehird> coppro: IT'S CALLED M :P
16:26:03 <ais523> and no, the code has nothing to do with Emacs
16:26:05 <ehird> ais523: hmm, right so, that job, I'd quit it?
16:26:10 <ehird> that is what i would do
16:26:17 <ais523> ehird: it's not that bad, at least I know elisp
16:26:24 <coppro> My job is Python and C++
16:26:25 <ehird> I know Brainfuck too
16:26:25 <fax> who the hell writes elisp that isn't to do with emacs??
16:26:32 <ais523> although using it as a CGI script is one of the weirder uses of it that I've seen
16:26:40 <ehird> ais523: Seriously, man
16:26:42 <ais523> somehow I doubt the code is going to be high-quality
16:26:58 <fax> I also doubt
16:27:07 <ehird> I'm pretty sure McDonalds is preferable to maintaining elisp CGIs
16:27:42 <ais523> actually, I was given three choices by the people in charge:
16:27:51 <ais523> maintain the code so it works (they haven't tried to run it yet)
16:27:55 <ais523> rewrite it from scratch
16:27:57 <ais523> or do the work it does by hand
16:28:02 <ais523> the third would take me a couple of days
16:28:08 <ais523> 2 seems potentially an interesting one
16:28:14 <ehird> unproductive, but less self-hating
16:28:18 <coppro> Can you legally tell us what it does?
16:28:21 <ehird> and whoever has elisp cgis doesn't deserve productivity
16:28:46 <ais523> coppro: several different things, mostly related to trying to fairly allocate things with first/second/third choices and keep track of them after they've been allocated
16:29:07 <coppro> shouldn't be too hard to rewrite then
16:29:17 <ais523> as far as I can tell, most of what it's meant to do is trivial
16:29:35 <ais523> which is why I'm encouraged enough to at least have a look at the elisp
16:29:38 <ais523> once they figure out where it is
16:30:11 <ehird> Why isn't reddit's css loading for me
16:30:54 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/static/reddit.css?v=79f52686b6e52d3db3bddb54e3852e84
16:30:55 <ehird> .leftpad { padding-left:1em }
16:30:57 <ehird> .nomargin { margin:0px }
16:30:57 <ehird> .nopadding { padding:0px }
16:31:02 <ehird> same for anyone else?
16:31:25 <fizzie> .hover a:hover { text-decoration:underline }
16:31:25 <fizzie> .selected { font-weight:bold; }
16:31:32 <fizzie> Quite a lot follows afterwards.
16:31:47 <ehird> being broken 'n shit
16:31:58 <fizzie> In other news, that's one big CSS file.
16:32:15 <ehird> it works with curl
16:32:23 * ehird clears cookies, restarts safari
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16:54:17 * ehird attempts to figure out what he can remove from his system to make room for snow leopard
16:54:39 <ais523> doesn't all software have bugs?
16:54:47 <ais523> even the traditional hello world doesn't check the return value from printf
16:55:23 <coppro> and do what with an error?
16:55:35 <coppro> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/12/snow_leopard_data_eating_bug/
16:56:16 <ehird> ais523: ignore coppro; he's an anti-Apple zealot
16:56:21 <ehird> is nowhere near as simple as portrayed
16:56:45 <ehird> You must upgrade from Leopard, to the Snow Leopard developer seeds, to Snow Leopard; and furthermore, have enabled the Guest account while still in Leopard, and never disabled it since
16:56:46 <ais523> from what I've heard on Slashdot, it causes massive data loss but only in a rather obscure corner case
16:56:52 <ais523> which nevertheless can happen by accident
16:57:03 <ehird> Yes, it's a bad bug... so fucking what? That's no reason not to install Snow Leopard.
16:57:04 <coppro> oh, didn't know you had to use a dev version
16:57:20 <ehird> That's what I've read; others contradict it, but the extra detail makes me think someone thought about this.
16:57:27 <coppro> I personally would wait until a fix was deployed to upgrade
16:57:28 <ehird> (You don't just add that upgrade step in a misrememberance)
16:57:34 <ehird> coppro: I don't use the Guest account
16:57:42 <ehird> It isn't enabled by default, and I have no use for it
16:57:43 <ehird> furthermore, I will not be upgrading
16:57:47 <ais523> I heard that the upgrade step wasn't relevant, but you had to hard-reboot while in the Guest account, then log in as Admin with the next login
16:57:50 <ais523> which is also relatively unlikely
16:57:56 <ehird> ais523: I'm pretty sure that's false
16:58:02 <ais523> well, upgrade from Leopard is relevant
16:58:06 <ais523> but from the dev version isn't
16:58:30 <ais523> I think what all this row means is, people aren't entirely sure how to reproduce it reliably
16:58:32 <ehird> coppro: and congratulations for citing El Reg as a reliable source, you either have never read it before or are seriously deluded
16:58:51 <ehird> *especially* since it has a known strong anti-Apple slant
16:59:00 <coppro> ehird: I was just grabbing the quickest link I could find
16:59:29 <ehird> Anyway, I think a bug, serious or not, that only appears in an obscure, non-applicable to me in every way corner case is no reason not to install it.
16:59:46 <ehird> Even if I used the Guest account, I'd just disable it and re-enable it, which fixes the bug.
17:00:55 <ais523> El Reg has a strong anti-everyone slant, AFAICT
17:01:03 <ais523> sort of like the lecturer I had today
17:01:09 <ais523> who appears to hate everyone, but Americans in particular
17:02:00 <ehird> Oh, of course, but they're particularly ridiculous about Apple, who are the cause of everything bad, regardless of whether it happened or not, about everything even slightly related to something with their name on it
17:02:17 <ehird> s/(?!\.)$/./, grr.
17:02:29 <ehird> (Most complex regexp to ever be used to fix a line on IRC? You decide!)
17:04:15 <ehird> someone ought to start a non-profit online tech newspaper without stupid FUD...
17:04:34 <fizzie> It would be better if it worked; that one adds the . always. You must have meant s/(?<!\.)$/./ which will only add it if necessary.
17:04:37 <ehird> without reader submission (although tips are fine)
17:04:46 <ehird> fizzie: ?! is what it is in Ruby
17:04:54 <ais523> ehird: your lookahead goes the wrong way
17:05:00 <ehird> [^.] would also work, technically.
17:05:09 <ais523> you're saying "if there's no full stop after the end of the string"
17:05:27 <fizzie> Yes. You'll always get a matching negative zero-width lookahead for . there if you anchor it at the $. You need the look-behind behaviour of <!.
17:06:01 <ais523> to put it another way, $ and (?!) are both zero-width assertions
17:06:06 <ais523> so it doesn't matter what order they're in
17:06:15 <ais523> and s/$(?!\.)/./ is obviously nonsensical
17:06:17 <ehird> irb(main):001:0> "a".gsub /(?!\.)$/, "."
17:06:18 <ehird> irb(main):002:0> "a.".gsub /(?!\.)$/, "."
17:06:19 <ehird> irb(main):003:0> "a.".gsub /(?<!\.)$/, "."
17:06:20 <ehird> irb(main):004:0> "a".gsub /(?<!\.)$/, "."
17:07:25 <fizzie> I did think about trying to fix it with another s///, but came into the conclusion that someone else would point out the problem while I would still be constructing the fix. (Or maybe not, since in retrospect it's just s/\?!/?<!/.)
17:07:58 <ehird> regexps are so ridiculous :)
17:11:25 <ais523> does anyone here know a reliable way to use up about 90% of your CPU in a busyloop?
17:11:37 <ais523> I'm trying to reproduce a CPU-speed-dependent bug
17:11:56 <ehird> ais523: 100% user + nice(1)
17:12:02 <ehird> user = thing that uses
17:12:52 <ehird> Also, news: Dyson introduced a new product which happens to consist entirely of things people already know about and have combined; claims it as his own invention.
17:13:01 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
17:13:05 <ehird> Right, yeah, that's nothing new.
17:14:40 <fax> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere -- reinventing the (generalized) wheel
17:15:05 <ehird> fax: your pattern-matching ability is stellar
17:15:09 * ais523 nice -n 1 sh -c "while true; do :; done;"
17:15:31 <ais523> for some reason, sh didn't like "do done;"
17:15:45 <fax> that pun was sweet
17:16:52 <ais523> Deewiant: a null command
17:16:59 <HackEgo> dyson \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Dyson Group DYS \ Last close: \ \ £ 0.16 $ 0.26 \ Recent returns: \ \ DYS London Stock Exchange Monday 12:00 am EDT \ \ 36 hrs ago \ \ day 0.00 \ \ month 0.00 \ \ YTD 71.05 \ \ year 75.84 \ \ 5 year 95.27 \ \ Price history: \ £ 0.70 £ 0.60 £ 0.50 £ 0.40 £ 0.30 £ 0.20 £ 0.10
17:17:02 <ais523> IIRC it always returns true
17:17:05 <ehird> do; done works in zsh, btw
17:17:23 <ehird> `wolfram dyson's age
17:17:24 <ais523> most shells allow redefinition of :
17:17:29 <ais523> which is how the killer smiley works
17:17:47 <ais523> also, that's a worrying price histor
17:17:59 <ais523> presumably it's a PDF-scraping error, rather than an actual sequence
17:19:00 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=dyson
17:19:03 <ehird> A lot more info her.
17:19:15 <ehird> (you're already violating the TOS by using a bot)
17:19:38 <fizzie> Yes, the "price history" is just the Y axis labels for a plot.
17:19:39 <ais523> I'm just typing stuff in an IRC channel...
17:19:41 <ehird> ais523: "No, your web browser is"
17:19:48 <ehird> You're just typing stuff in a form field
17:20:07 <ehird> you have clear intent to use W|A with those lines, just like you do with a browser
17:20:10 <ais523> ehird: I didn't make a connection to the Wolfram servers at all
17:20:24 <ehird> Indeed, you wouldn't with a browser, your ISP would
17:20:40 <ais523> I'd at least be sending the IP address to connect to a website the usual way
17:20:53 * ais523 is actually surprised Alpha still exists
17:20:56 <coppro> here's a better question: are such TOS enforceable?
17:21:07 <ais523> but then, Cuil still exists, too
17:21:08 <fax> ais523: why are you surprised?
17:21:32 <ais523> fax: just because everyone's mostly forgotten about it
17:21:37 <ehird> contract under duress
17:21:42 <ais523> there's a court case in the US saying it is
17:21:43 <ehird> also, most people never see it
17:21:50 <fizzie> ais523: "You may not in effect use Wolfram|Alpha through an alternate user interface presented by another website." Doesn't say anything about requiring you to make direct connections. (Also, curiously, doesn't say right *there* that you may not actually make such a website, but I guess it's covered by some other phrase.)
17:22:00 <ais523> the one about driving a girl to suicide over MySpace
17:22:14 <coppro> can you find me a link please?
17:22:15 <ais523> for some reason, they decided to prosecute it as a violation of MySpace's TOS rather than any other way
17:22:30 <coppro> also, EULAs/TOS are different if you actually have to agree
17:23:15 <ais523> http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnology/pubArticleLT.jsp?id=1202434043364&Will_SCOTUS_Rule_on_the_Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act
17:23:28 <coppro> there's still the factor of duress, as ehird pointed out, as well as whether the thing would be enforceable (many disclaimers wouldn't be enforceable in any circumstances), but I don't think W|A's TOS could be enforced at all
17:24:00 <ehird> yes, but ais523 never violates any law even possibly. well, okay, he's violating the TOS here due to "You may not in effect use Wolfram|Alpha through an alternate user interface presented by another website."
17:24:05 <ehird> but we're all fallible, right?
17:24:43 <coppro> hmm... that's a specific law, though, don't know how it's applicable in the general terms
17:24:50 <ais523> ehird: violating the TOS of a website that you aren't using is like violating the rules of a nomic you aren't playing
17:24:59 <ehird> you are patently using it
17:25:01 <coppro> (i.e. where cybercrime laws don't exist like in the US)
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17:25:16 <ais523> ehird: suppose you asked me what 2+2 was, and I looked it up on Alpha and said 4
17:25:17 <ehird> unless you want to throw intent out of the window
17:25:20 <ais523> would that be you using Alpha?
17:25:32 <ehird> in which case; congrats, you've neutered the law system
17:25:34 <coppro> on another note, I don't think software licenses are, strictly speaking, enforceable in Canada
17:25:58 <ehird> 222222222222222222222222222222222222222222
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17:26:17 <coppro> there's a Statue of Frauds-like requirement that copyright licenses be signed by both parties in Canada
17:27:06 * ais523 reads Cuil's privacy policy
17:27:10 <ais523> it claims to have an opt-out for adverts
17:27:26 <ehird> http://www.cuil.com/prefs
17:27:31 <ehird> "Advertising Preferences"
17:27:39 <ais523> they don't appear on my screen
17:27:43 <ehird> took me 5 seconds and one click to find it after hitting cuil.com<enter>
17:27:47 <ais523> heh, I wonder if AdBlock blocked the preferences?
17:27:47 <ehird> ais523: that's your fault for disabling js
17:27:49 <coppro> ais523: want to know a true legal joy?
17:28:35 <coppro> I have to explain to Lenovo/Microsoft at some point in the near future why, despite clicking the 'Accept' button and starting up Windows, they are nonetheless required to refund it under the terms of the license agreement as which I have not agreed to
17:28:45 <ais523> ehird: it worked when I turned JS on /and/ AdBlock off
17:28:57 <ehird> that blind-search-of-google-yahoo-and-bing thing should replace yahoo with cuil, now that yahoo=bing
17:29:01 <ais523> coppro: why did you click the Accept button?
17:29:06 <ehird> i bet it turns out to bee not actually terrible
17:29:21 <ehird> ais523: presumably he wants to use windows because he's crazy
17:29:27 <coppro> ais523: I didn't realize that Lenovo's idea of a Windows install disc is a "reimage your computer" disc
17:29:46 <ais523> actually, the thing that confuses me is, that the bit of the agreement that says you can send the software back for a refund if you don't agree is /in the agreement/
17:29:55 <ais523> so, if there's no agreement, they don't have to honour it...
17:30:02 <coppro> it's a unilateral contract
17:30:13 <coppro> independent from the main agreement
17:30:55 <ehird> hmm... http://www.cuil.com/search?q=cuil+sucks gives crap results
17:30:59 <coppro> in any case, I have two grounds to void the contract - one being misunderstanding (the contract clearly states there is a reinstallation disc), the other being that I'm a minor
17:31:10 <ais523> coppro: heh, I like the second reason there
17:31:29 <coppro> yeah, being under 18 has fun implications
17:32:13 <ehird> LOL; Microsoft have plastered a Bing ad over their acquired-and-then-left-to-die http://powerset.com/, basically saying "This is shit, use Bing"
17:33:19 <ais523> wow, they have as well
17:34:04 <ais523> I'm not sure what it means
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17:55:18 <ehird> so, corporate affairs just spat on the h2g2 trilogy's grave with the new book not written by douglas adams' publication.
17:56:00 <ehird> (I love long nested expressions in English.)
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18:07:05 <fizzie> Oh, they got that Artemis Fowl guy book published?
18:08:02 <ais523> beh, more spam phone calls
18:08:05 <ais523> they happen a lot in this office
18:08:15 <ais523> I just leave the phone off the hook in an attempt to waste their money
18:14:52 <ais523> gah, I've just spent half an hour reading a website about shoelaces
18:17:26 <ehird> haha, is it that really comprehensive one?
18:17:29 <ehird> that was linked from geekhack.org
18:17:36 <ehird> with the huge hieerarchical sidebar?
18:18:30 <ais523> http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace
18:20:02 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
18:20:05 <ehird> ais523: http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/IanKnot16.gif
18:20:09 <ehird> warning: hypnotising
18:20:11 <Deewiant> I spent a few hours reading that site once and didn't change my shoelacing habits at all
18:20:35 <ehird> Dyson should make a shoe that doesn't need laces because it uses magnets
18:20:43 <ehird> also, it's made out of metal
18:20:57 <ais523> incidentally, I invented the security shoelace knot independently
18:21:15 <ais523> I've never been able to tie shoelaces, so I reinvented the shoelace knot from first principles
18:21:48 <ehird> ooh, the shoelace guy is double crazy
18:21:48 <ehird> This new section was created mainly to promote my breakthrough JPG image optimization program, JPGExtra. All of my programming is done in Assembly Language, which results in minimalist software programs that are tiny yet very powerful.
18:22:18 <Deewiant> http://www.fieggen.com/software/assembly.htm
18:22:35 <ehird> Every computer program is a sequence of instructions that the processor chip of the computer understands. Instructions such as: ADD THESE TWO NUMBERS, or PRINT THIS MESSAGE, or STORE THIS VALUE, or QUIT IF THE RESULT IS ZERO.
18:22:48 <ehird> print this message?
18:22:54 <ehird> is he sure he isn't programming in python instead?
18:23:11 <ehird> [[To me, this is a modern example of the old saying: The end justifies the means.]]
18:23:13 <ais523> in DOS, at least, it's two bytes of ASM to "print this message"
18:23:15 <ehird> warning— this guy may be a serial killer
18:23:16 <ais523> you just do an interrupt
18:23:19 <Asztal> He's cheating with INT 21h :(
18:23:26 <ehird> that's not an assembly instrucution, ais523
18:23:38 <ehird> and the processor doesn't understand it as that
18:24:27 <ehird> "Despite the fact that Assembly Language can produce the most powerful and efficient programs, the majority of today's software (even "Windows" itself) in written in high-level programming languages.
18:24:27 <ehird> Software developers have many reasons for this, some quite legitimate, but mostly to do with maximising profits."
18:24:30 <ehird> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
18:25:17 <ais523> if you write everything in asm, C is high-level
18:25:25 <ehird> ais523: see the last line
18:25:28 <ehird> is what i was talking about
18:25:45 <ais523> well, asm programmers need to be paid more than C programmer on avergae
18:25:45 <AnMaster> ehird, what an idiot. Sadly I seen people like that before.
18:25:56 <ais523> and also, the programs take longer to write
18:25:59 <ais523> which also reduces profits
18:26:20 <ais523> (put another way: if writing everything in asm did produce the maximum profits, people would actually do it)
18:26:35 <ais523> maximising profits isn't necessarily a bad thing
18:26:36 <Deewiant> ehird: That's completely correct?
18:26:38 <ais523> sometimes it just means being sane
18:26:46 <ehird> It's not the reason it's done, though
18:26:55 <ehird> It's done because, you know, writing complicated software in asm is near-impossible
18:27:04 <ehird> Which, sure, you can abstract as "maximising profits"
18:27:11 <ehird> But then you can say that everything is done because of that, which is true and useless
18:27:15 <Deewiant> ---> it costs more to produce complicated software in asm
18:27:21 <ehird> And even more useless when given for a justification for any given action by a company
18:27:25 <ehird> Because it's always true
18:27:30 <ais523> I agree, the statement in question is true but useless
18:27:36 <ais523> so why are we attacking it? this is #esoteric!
18:27:42 <ehird> So, I wasn't denying it; it's just a ridiculous statement
18:27:51 <ehird> ais523: because he's an idiot :P
18:29:03 <ehird> I need a good keyboard fast :(
18:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, about that "QUIT IF THE RESULT IS ZERO"... I don't think that the concept of quitting even exists at the hardware level
18:30:19 <ehird> Quit = ret, obviously
18:30:39 <ehird> But the simplification doesn't mark him as an idiot
18:30:45 <ehird> The blaisé assertions do
18:32:30 <ais523> ooh, new esolang on the wiki
18:32:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:33:04 <ais523> doesn't actually look that esoteric, tbh
18:33:14 <ais523> it's basically a stock imperative language that hasn't been thought through
18:33:49 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:Zetaplex.png
18:33:52 <ehird> another OS X esolanger!
18:34:03 <ais523> OS X is common amongst computery people
18:34:12 <ehird> not overly so, windows far more
18:34:17 <ehird> and in some circles, linux far more
18:34:21 <ais523> this one, for instance
18:34:23 <ehird> OS X is relatively uncommon outside of mac circles
18:34:31 <ais523> actually, I wonder if Windows or Linux is more common in #esoteric?
18:34:34 <fizzie> Misread "OS X is common amongst the conspiracy people".
18:34:35 <ehird> ais523: me, lament and (doesn't really count) Corun
18:34:40 <ehird> are the OS Xers here
18:34:42 <ais523> I'd expect there to be several mac users here, but nowhere near a majorit
18:35:06 <ehird> oh, incidentally, Corun's mac app got bought out by a bigger mac vendor
18:35:09 <ehird> read that earlier today
18:35:13 <ehird> (well, I think another person worked on it too)
18:35:20 * ais523 CTCP VERSIONs the whole of #esoteric
18:35:31 <ehird> I do that occasionally
18:35:42 <ais523> [18:35] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from Gregor: xchat 2.8.6 .
18:35:43 <ais523> [18:35] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from Gregor: Microsoft IRC# 2010 64-bit (Windows 7 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM).
18:35:47 <ais523> there's something odd there...
18:35:52 <ehird> ais523: obviously a joke
18:36:06 <ehird> why is windows 7 x64 with 2GB of RAM odd?
18:36:12 <ehird> it's not silly like the rest
18:36:18 <ais523> ehird: I meant, using both xchat and IRC#
18:36:21 <ais523> over the same connection, somehow
18:36:26 <ehird> IRC# doesn't exist
18:36:31 <fizzie> ais523: I think I should be replying with multiple version replies too.
18:36:32 <ais523> again, I suspected that
18:36:32 <ehird> And definitely not 2010
18:36:41 <fizzie> ais523: One for the bouncer, one connected irssi, one connected XChat.
18:36:47 <ehird> Oh, I forgot that fax uses OS X too
18:36:57 <ais523> fizzie: ah yes, you said both irssi and xchat
18:37:28 <ehird> bip is an in-irssi bouncer, I gather
18:37:32 <ehird> from fizzie's talkings
18:37:38 <fax> I use ubunut
18:37:47 <ehird> fax CTCP REPLY <CTCP>VERSION X-Chat Aqua 0.17.0-rc1 (xchat 2.8.6) Darwin 9.8.0 [i386/2.66GHz/SMP]<CTCP>
18:37:48 <fizzie> No, it's a separate program. I did use the irssi bouncer too for a while there.
18:37:49 <ehird> demonstratably false
18:38:19 <ais523> yes, how could you get a 386 to run at 2.66GHz?
18:38:34 <ehird> ais523: no, I meant his ubuntu clame
18:38:36 <ehird> and don't be silly
18:38:45 <ehird> i386 is a blanket classification
18:38:57 <ehird> i686 being i686-and-better, etc
18:39:18 <fax> I use Ubuntu
18:39:25 <ehird> fax: your client says you use OS X
18:39:33 <fax> I know that
18:39:48 <ehird> also, "GNU/Linux"? did the silly drones infect your brain or something?
18:39:56 <fizzie> Bip's a bit silly; it multiplexes the different networks over a single port, uses the server password (given as "user:pass:network") to determine which one to connect. There's a slight trick needed to use it with Irssi, which normally refuses to connect multiple times to the same host:port pair.
18:40:14 <ais523> I say GNU/Linux when I want to mention both parts, but that's rare
18:40:15 <fax> GNU/Linux is the correct tern
18:40:19 <ais523> the GNU stuff is normally irrelevant
18:40:48 <ehird> i'm pretty sure fax is just trolling, since anyone whose client identifies as OS X and defends the use of GNU/Linux is clearly too insane to use IRC
18:40:57 <ehird> not GNU/Linux itself
18:41:52 <ais523> I say GNU/Linux if I need to draw a comparison with BusyBox/Linux for whatever reason
18:42:17 <ehird> Gun/Linux, for the esr in you.
18:42:24 <ehird> (Pun shamelessly lifted from ELER.)
18:42:40 <ais523> incidentally, are there famous people who support one name over the other?
18:42:44 <ais523> RMS prefers GNU/Linux, obviously
18:42:52 <ais523> but IIRC, even he's given up trying to get people to use it
18:43:03 <ehird> I don't think anyone but rms cares
18:43:04 <fizzie> How is it with Ubuntu, does it identify itself as "GNU/Linux" anywhere?
18:43:08 <ehird> at least, anyone relevant
18:43:15 <ais523> a system is GNU/Linux if and only if Emacs is used as the main shell on it
18:43:17 <ehird> It's "Ubuntu Linux".
18:43:31 <ehird> It's a layer of GUI in between a chocolate biscuit.
18:43:38 <ais523> Emacs is clearly a central part of the GNU operating system
18:43:44 <fizzie> Debian still says "GNU/Linux" in many places, like the default motd and issue files.
18:43:45 <ais523> based on all the discussions about it
18:43:55 <ais523> therefore, an OS must be based on Emacs to be GNU-based
18:43:59 <ehird> fax: your trolling powers are weak
18:44:03 <ehird> ais523: no no, GNU have two operating systems, GNU/Linux and GNU/Emacs
18:44:12 <ehird> it has multitasking, for instance
18:44:15 <ais523> ehird: Emacs/Linux would make more sense than GNU/Emacs
18:44:20 <ehird> and more flexible windowing systems, and program compatibility
18:44:25 <ais523> there's "GNU Emacs", which is a version of Emacs
18:44:26 <ehird> ais523: it runs GNU software on top of Emacs
18:44:39 <ais523> ehird: the OS still needs a kernel
18:44:43 <ehird> AnMaster: BSD/Hurd is impossible; BSDs' kernels are strongly linked with their software
18:44:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't forget it, I just disregarded it
18:44:50 <ehird> ais523: /Emacs is portable to other kernels
18:45:02 <ehird> but it's mostly used on top of /Linux
18:45:14 <ehird> making it basically a useless toy, only usable on top of another, better system
18:45:29 <fizzie> Well, gnu.org front page (third paragraph from top-left, quite a prominent spot) is still all "Sometimes this combination is incorrectly called Linux."
18:46:06 <ais523> how many actual GNU/Linux distributions are there, though/
18:46:18 <ais523> pretty much no modern distro cares about userland command-line tools
18:46:22 <ais523> as the major focus of the distro
18:46:26 <ais523> so it would have to be something with no GUI
18:46:32 <ehird> Well, Slackware has KDE.
18:46:46 <ais523> also, http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html still amuses me
18:46:58 <ehird> heh, they list BLAG first
18:47:09 <ehird> I read BLAG's forums a while back after stumbling upon them
18:47:21 <ehird> the distro is redhat-derived (iirc via fedora)
18:47:26 <ehird> but they're all anarchists, basically
18:47:40 <ehird> makes for an interesting user group...
18:48:37 <ehird> why is the sky brown
18:49:10 <ais523> oh, another random programming question: does anyone here know how to get curses (in general, or ncurses in particular) to output a nonprintable character raw?
18:49:28 <ehird> addch or whatever it is
18:49:31 <ehird> just pass the code
18:49:35 <ais523> that only does printable
18:49:43 <ehird> ais523: print it to stdout
18:49:59 <ais523> then curses will overwrite it at random because it doesn't know about it
18:50:23 <Deewiant> Why do you need to output a nonprintable?
18:50:51 <ais523> Deewiant: I'm trying to make a client-server architecture for NetHack
18:51:00 <ais523> with the interface separate from the game logic
18:51:08 <ais523> (don't ask me why I want to do /that/, this is #esoteric)
18:51:14 <ais523> anyway, some people use specialist fonts for NetHack
18:51:22 <ehird> ais523: just output it all as lisp
18:51:26 <ais523> in which all the character codes from 128-255 are printables with special meanings
18:51:27 <ehird> oh wait, that already exists.
18:51:30 <ais523> ehird: that's what I am doing
18:51:33 <ais523> I used that code and tweaked it
18:51:39 <ais523> what I'm talking about is, how to write the client code
18:51:49 <ehird> well, don't use curses
18:52:03 <ehird> and all those sorts of characters
18:52:12 <ehird> (termios to make input raw)
18:52:14 <ais523> it would be nicer to use curses if I could, though
18:52:21 <ais523> so it's portable to lots of different terminals
18:52:56 <fizzie> Steal the wintty code out of Nethack too?
18:52:58 <ehird> it's just the control chars might not be; ais523: or do you want to support non-VT?
18:53:00 <ehird> if so, you're crazy
18:53:16 <ais523> I want to support everything, reall
18:53:29 <fizzie> You're supposed to take the control chars from termcap/terminfo; it's really bad form to hard-code *those*.
18:53:31 <ais523> atm I'm limiting myself to things that claim to support the ANSI terminal codes
18:53:41 <ais523> mostly for sanity reasons
18:53:47 <ais523> but everything does nowadays, even the non-VT stuff
18:53:54 <ehird> ais523: then termios will be fine
18:54:01 <ehird> it just lets you set terminal input as raw
18:54:05 <ehird> so that you get every keypress directly
18:54:13 <ais523> I want to do cursy stuff too, though
18:54:29 <ehird> yes, but the arrow keys are ANSI stuff, no?
18:54:37 <ais523> it's not the arrow keys I want, strangel
18:54:46 <ais523> besides, arrows on a VT + nethack cause all sorts of amazing problems
18:54:57 <ais523> things like delayed-update rendering
18:54:58 <ehird> ctrl-v (arrow key)
18:55:01 <ehird> that gives you a keycode
18:55:07 <ehird> that repositions the cursor
18:55:08 <fizzie> So what's wrong with using the existing TTY "window system" routines to present the interface? Then it'll be the one people are used to, after all.
18:55:22 <ais523> fizzie: they're too tightly bound to NetHack
18:55:34 <ais523> I decided rewriting would be easier than reimplementing half of NetHack on the client side
18:55:41 <ehird> you could have just said the first line
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18:56:49 <fizzie> It doesn't look *that* tightly bound, to be honest; though admittedly I've just looked at it for two minutes or so. A horrible mess it of course is.
18:57:29 <ehird> we should form an esoteric english assocation
18:57:36 <ehird> to celebrate and cultivate sentences like "A horrible mess it of course is."
18:57:47 <ais523> something is wrong; ncurses appears not to have official online documentation
18:57:53 <ais523> it has manpages, but no info, despite being a GNU thing
18:58:00 <ais523> and this is one case where info would really help
18:58:04 <ehird> ncurses isn't really much of a gnu thing
18:58:06 <ehird> for instance, it's mit-licensed, IIRC
18:58:12 <AnMaster> <ais523> so it would have to be something with no GUI <-- most server distros *should* fall into that category. Probably "should" != "do" in this case :(
18:58:17 <ehird> it's a project that's de facto gnu, but de jure ncurses
18:59:54 <ais523> ooh, more activity in Bilski
19:00:57 <ais523> Microsoft are arguing for the same verdict that the EFF are, but on completely different reasoning
19:00:59 <ehird> "In re Bilski"; wonderful name
19:01:21 <ehird> I should donate to the EFF.
19:01:40 <ais523> all this effort will probably be pointless
19:01:46 <ais523> because the patent in question isn't actually a software patent
19:01:55 <ais523> so the Supreme Court don't have to rule on them
19:02:43 <fizzie> ais523: If you are ncurses-specific, you can use legacy_coding(2) -- "the library ignores isprintf for codes in the range 128-255."
19:02:56 <fizzie> (In this case "2" is a value, not a man page section number.)
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19:03:39 <ais523> fizzie: that's pretty much what I was looking for
19:03:53 <fizzie> "AUTHOR: Thomas Dickey (to support lynx's font-switching feature)."
19:04:38 <fizzie> Er, and I mean "use use_legacy_coding(2)"; one "use" got left off.
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19:05:17 <ais523> it seems to be a curses thing
19:05:38 <Deewiant> It doesn't seem to be explained much
19:05:43 * ehird toys around with the idea of modding this keyboard with his Model M to produce an unimaginable horror: The Topre of scissor-switches!
19:05:45 <ais523> also, yay "keyname", that'll help this code quite a bit
19:06:00 <ais523> I'm planning to have customizable keybindings
19:07:24 <fizzie> In this particular context, they may have also meant just plain old "isprint"; at least my man page is pretty broken anyway. The NAME section says "use_legacy_coding - use terminal's default colors".
19:07:38 -!- AnMaster_ has joined.
19:07:38 <ehird> Or I could mod it with my old Apple keyboard; then I could produce the plastic-vessel-bashing-scissor-switches horror.
19:07:54 <fizzie> (Probably copied from use_default_colors.)
19:08:55 <Deewiant> Presumably it is just a prevailing typo
19:09:07 <Deewiant> grepping for isprintf in all of ncurses gives only that manpage
19:09:39 <ais523> int isprintf(int (*f)(char*,...)) { return f == printf; }
19:10:58 <ais523> it probably has some ues
19:11:28 <ehird> ais523: nonono, you know __attribute__((printf))?
19:11:30 <ehird> it should detect that somehow
19:11:43 <ehird> (gcc; makes it parse the format argument to warn about extraneous or omitted arguments)
19:11:51 <ehird> (I think it has an argument to tell which one's the format, but eh)
19:12:11 <ais523> there are gcc attributes for scanf and strftime too, IIR
19:13:54 <pikhq> ehird: It also does type-checking on arguments, IIRC.
19:14:22 <ehird> ais523: could one detect it with crazy gcc functions, I wonder?
19:14:41 <pikhq> I don't think GCC provides sufficient attribute introspection.
19:15:14 <ehird> also: http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/transubstantiation.html
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19:25:28 <ais523> wow, .se was down for half an hour yesterday
19:25:36 <ais523> it's rare for a TLD to crash...
19:25:45 <ais523> (only the DNS, though, so it isn't all that big a deal)
19:26:45 <ais523> the reason is fun, too
19:26:50 <fizzie> "-- due to a bug in the script that generates the SE zone file. The SE tld has close to one million domains that all went down due to missing the trailing dot in the SE zone file --"; news like this are comforting, in the sense that it seems more likely that they're still humans running the Internet. Or maybe that's just what they want us to believe.
19:27:33 <Deewiant> It's just cosmic rays messing up the AIs
19:27:54 <ais523> yes, they pushed a typo directly to production
19:28:03 <ehird> isn't all that big a deal? Sure it is
19:28:16 <ais523> ehird: the DNS was cached in most places
19:28:22 <ais523> top-level DNSes often are
19:30:35 <AnMaster> <AnMaster_> <AnMaster> <ais523> ooh, more activity in Bilski <-- what is bilski?
19:30:35 <AnMaster> <AnMaster_> before I lost connection
19:30:35 <AnMaster> <AnMaster_> very bad connection today
19:30:42 <AnMaster> I have no clue if that got through
19:31:00 <ais523> AnMaster: a US supreme court case
19:31:06 <ais523> (and no it didn't get through)
19:31:12 <ais523> it's about a business method patent
19:31:28 <ais523> and a huge horde of people are trying to persuade the supreme court to settle the software patent issue at the same time
19:32:39 <AnMaster> ais523, about the dns issue for .se. Didn't notice anything. Though yesterday I was a bit busy IRL so could easily have missed it.
19:32:57 <ais523> it was only for half an hour
19:39:20 <ehird> also, your ISP had it cached.
19:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, well not sure what isp my uni uses
19:57:48 <ehird> It's almost certain.
19:58:01 <AnMaster> actually they are hooked up to sunet I think
19:58:20 <AnMaster> but more like university backbone
20:00:57 <ehird> Tee hee, I love notebooks with accelerometers.
20:03:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you bought a netbook recently?
20:03:40 <AnMaster> you finally bought a notebook?
20:03:48 <AnMaster> and my thinkpad has an accelerometer
20:03:54 <ehird> No, I just love notebooks with accelerometers
20:04:11 <fizzie> Welll... my calculator has an accumulator!
20:04:16 <ais523> desktops with accelerometers would be more fun
20:04:41 <ehird> GPU giant NVIDIA has confirmed that the company is putting the brakes on the Nforce chipset line because of legal wranglings with Intel.
20:04:42 <fizzie> Accelerators and accumumometers.
20:04:53 <ehird> so now the only real option for non-shitty notebook graphics is ati
20:05:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> GPU giant NVIDIA has confirmed that the company is putting the brakes on the Nforce chipset line because of legal wranglings with Intel.
20:05:35 <AnMaster> ehird, they will lose LOTS of money by that
20:05:46 <AnMaster> since that is their main product
20:05:48 <ehird> well, they said legal wranglings; I doubt they have much choice
20:05:53 <ehird> GeForce is their main product
20:06:06 <ehird> nForce might be more successful, but GeForce is where their millions of bux go
20:07:11 <AnMaster> and yeah nforce chipset. Has that
20:07:15 <ehird> nForce is used in low-end desktops but, most imrp
20:07:22 <ehird> *importantly, notebooks
20:07:38 <fizzie> I guess they're still going to do mobile GPUs, though, just not chipsets?
20:07:38 <ehird> for instance, I have no idea what Apple will do now
20:07:45 <ehird> they used to use Intel chipsets, but, err, they suck
20:07:53 <ehird> fizzie: nForce includes the GPUs
20:08:01 <ehird> (The rest of the article clarifies)
20:08:10 <ehird> No more GPUs for now
20:08:24 <ehird> (Still produced, just no new architectures)
20:10:51 <ehird> Ehh, every now and then the latency on this thing shoots up and I'm reminded I'm on a 3G modem.
20:10:55 <ehird> (Apart from that it's insanely good.)
20:13:04 <ehird> "While the Unihan file still isn’t part of UnicodeChecker due to its size, the Unicode 5.2 data files are included. There are plenty of additions in this revision. They even introduced additional Snowman codepoints! Black Snowman (U+26C7) and Snowman without Snow (U+26C4) OMG ☃☃☃11!!!!!1☃☃☃11! Now I’ll just need a font with glyphs for these new codepoints."
20:13:13 <ehird> Someone do it, quick
20:13:17 <fizzie> There are those gazillion mobile GeForce variants (8xxxM, 9xxxM, 1xxM, 2xxM), though; are you saying those are all nForce-chipset-integrated-only things? That doesn't seem like it'd be the case. (Though those seem to be used more on the high-end not-so-laptop-any-mores.)
20:14:07 <ehird> fizzie: Those are going, that's the point. And Apple uses them on all notebooks.
20:15:02 <ehird> http://earthlingsoft.net/ssp/blog/graphics/UnicodeChecker%20114%20QuickLook.png ;; Spotlight plugin for an app that contains every Unicode character + Finder's Cover Flow = Ridiculously glitzy fun that may or may not be useful in the slightest
20:20:04 <fizzie> I guess I'm not just getting it; I don't see any references in the pcmag.com or zdnet.com articles to anything else than "placed its Nforce chipset line on hiatus"; they still have those mobile Tecra and ION things, and from what I can tell they do discrete-but-still-intended-for-mobile-use GPUs in the GeForce line; just not CPU chipsets.
20:21:17 <ehird> fizzie: But, FYI, a lot of Apple's notebooks use the non-discrete GeForce GPUs
20:21:26 <ehird> (The others use them + an extra discrete GeForce)
20:22:08 <fizzie> Yes, I guess there's a lot of hardware that uses Intel CPUs and would prefer to have an integrated solution.
20:22:13 <fizzie> Those are a bit of out of luck.
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20:29:17 <ehird> I am cal. Wait, what?
20:31:06 <ais523> !clc-intercal DO WRITE OUT #12345 DO GIVE UP
20:31:13 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:31:17 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:31:23 <ais523> !clcintercal DO WRITE OUT #12345 DO GIVE UP
20:31:31 <EgoBot> *000 DO WRITE OUT #12345
20:31:38 <ais523> !clcintercal DO READ OUT #12345 DO GIVE UP
20:32:22 <AnMaster> ais523, you fell for the write out thing XD
20:32:37 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL is full of traps like that
20:32:40 <ais523> and I haven't written it for a while
20:34:22 <ais523> !clcintercal DO CREATE _1 ?VERB ,WRITE, ,OUT, ?RVALUES AS GER + #13 + ROU + !RVALUES #1 + ?RVALUES #1 DO WRITE OUT #12345 PLEASE DO GIVE UP
20:34:28 <EgoBot> *000 DO CREATE _1 ?VERB ,WRITE, ,OUT, ?RVALUES AS GER + #13 + ROU + !RVALUES #1 + ?RVALUES #1 DO WRITE OUT #12345
20:34:50 <ais523> hmm... CLC-INTERCAL doesn't like me mixing INTERCAL and IACC
20:35:01 <ais523> although, the location where that statement ended is interesting
20:35:14 <ais523> !clcintercal DOREADOUTDOREADOUTDOREADOUT
20:35:20 <EgoBot> *000 DOREADOUTDOREADOUTDOREADOUT
20:35:32 <ais523> !clcintercal DOREADOUTDOREADOUTDOREADOUT#5
20:35:38 <EgoBot> *000 DOREADOUTDOREADOUT
20:35:45 <ais523> likewise, that's also interesting
20:35:54 <ais523> (J-INTERCAL had a rather spectacular misparsing of that particular string...)
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21:08:55 <nooga> ehird: vim or emacs?
21:09:17 <ehird> Mu; the question is incorrect.
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21:10:46 <ais523> emacs is better for CGI scripting
21:12:03 <nooga> i was just curious what that little RMS would say
21:12:32 <nooga> basically there is lisp in emacs - it counts
21:13:19 <ehird> congratulations, two more incoherent lines
21:13:47 <ehird> that little RMS = me? more like polar opposite...
21:13:51 <ehird> and I have no idea what the second line maens
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21:15:12 <nooga> you're just like rms
21:15:19 <ehird> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
21:15:22 <ehird> nooga: no, I'm not
21:15:29 <ehird> I disagree with rms on just about everything
21:15:33 <nooga> "it's not X, i like only X, i won't come any closer"
21:15:37 <ehird> also, I don't have a beard; and I'm not homeless
21:16:01 <nooga> but i have beard and i'm almost homeless ;D:D:D
21:16:08 <ehird> nooga: you continue to pioneer new heights of awkward english. but that sentiment you invent is more commonly expressed by vim and emacs uesrs.
21:16:21 <ehird> I'd say I have no time for this tediousness, but I do.
21:17:24 <nooga> i was trying to annoy you because if you'd say vim i''d say that you're inconsistent in your opinions because the lisp is in emacs, not vim
21:17:44 <nooga> and i still remember how you love genera and other weird lisp contraptions
21:17:55 <ais523> adding Lisp to something does not automatically make it good
21:18:06 <ehird> You're full of shit. First of all, liking something with the property P does not mean my quality metric solely consists of P.
21:18:25 <ehird> Secondly, Genera is indeed good because of Lisp, but again this in no way implies the generic goodness of Lisp, let alone it being the only metric of quality.
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21:28:30 <ehird> About "half" of a "letter size" paper —Happy Hacking Keyboard site
21:29:34 <nooga> ppl tend to put " everywhere
21:33:15 <pikhq> People like scare quotes.
21:33:22 <pikhq> They're all 'scary'.
21:33:28 <Deewiant> http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
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21:36:54 <SimonRC> ais523: what dareIask is IACC?
21:37:04 <nooga> "maybe "we" should think about some "esolang" based on "unnecessary" quotes"
21:37:09 <ais523> SimonRC: the language in which CLC-INTERCAL is implemented
21:37:24 <ais523> and IACC is implemented in IACC, but runs on a VM written in Perl
21:37:29 <ais523> which is where most of the coding actually is
21:37:30 <ehird> To be fair the site is all Japanese
21:37:38 <ehird> Not language, that is
21:37:52 <SimonRC> I was hoping it was YACC that outputted INTERCAL
21:37:58 <ehird> Anyway, looks like it'll be useless to me, as they only sell the Lite 2, whereas I want (if I do want a HHKB at all) the Professional 2
21:38:15 <ais523> SimonRC: the name's clearly a variation on YACC
21:42:54 <SimonRC> ehird: I reply to your transubstantiation link: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1664#comic
21:43:17 <ehird> Deewiant: you could say that unneccessaryquotes.com is full of unneccessary quotes
21:44:25 <SimonRC> don't forget the alt-image
21:44:45 <SimonRC> (mouse-over the red circle below)
21:45:06 <SimonRC> took me 1500 comics to find that button's purpose...
21:45:13 <ehird> SimonRC: don't be condescending to me with your whole assuming I don't read smbc stuff :|
21:45:39 <ehird> well technically you had to vote for smbc in some random webcomics ranking before you could access it in the old days iirrc
21:46:14 <SimonRC> uhhhh, that sounds a bit circular
21:46:44 <ehird> you clicked the votey (thus the name), it'd ask "DO YOU CONFIRM THAT YOU WANT TO VOTE FOR: SATURDAY BLARGHFEST", confirm, bam, image
21:49:29 <ehird> i briefly considered that interpretation for a few seconds before dismissing it as too silly
21:49:56 <ehird> i like the idea of a link to a thing you have to do to see the link, though
21:50:13 <SimonRC> nah, just the comic image, I thought
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21:57:36 <Gregor> I didn't know how to make the default version string go away :P
22:00:58 <ehird> http://www.addictinggames.com/fingerfrenzy.html ;; argh, addicting (rather trivial game: type a→z as fast as possible)
22:01:05 <ehird> 2.767 with crappy keyboard and qwerty is my record...
22:02:58 <fizzie> Gregor: /set irc_hide_version on
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22:03:27 <fizzie> (Note: I'm not completely sure "on" is what you type in the /set command to set a boolean value; I just looked at the source.)
22:04:29 <ehird> eh, and i've lost the skill
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22:23:12 <Deewiant> Best non-cheating score of this month seems to be 1.635
22:24:07 <ehird> There are YouTube videos of people doing it in <1sec
22:25:19 <ehird> Hah, I am superior to you with QWERTY on a scissor-switch
22:25:46 <Deewiant> I used to type a-ö just for fun occasionally
22:26:38 <ais523> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:26:45 <ais523> because I'm used to typing words, not letters
22:26:48 <Deewiant> On Colemak I keep typing qp instead of pq
22:28:03 <ehird> *board's all sweated up, yuck
22:28:13 <ehird> (OK, I'm officially a keyboard nut; saying "board"...)
22:28:18 <ehird> ais523: consider it as one big word
22:28:27 <ehird> like supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
22:28:40 <ehird> omg, which gets past spellcheck in os x
22:28:45 <ais523> yes, it's not a word I've finger-learnt yet
22:30:41 <ehird> you have to learn every individual word to touch-type it?
22:30:42 <Deewiant> And I think QWERTY has a bit of an advantage here with easily-rollable sequences: de, fghjkl, mn, op. Colemak has only mn and rst.
22:32:33 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHze_NYbGs 0.265 seconds?
22:33:10 <ehird> Deewiant: wow that typing style is awful
22:33:33 <ehird> also that video was so faked
22:33:36 <ehird> at least from the looks of it
22:38:35 <AnMaster> hm make a keyboard layout that allows you to roll completely
22:44:49 <ehird> only qwerty,dvorak,colemak allowed.
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09:59:30 <asiekierka> i need an algorithm for the game of life without a need to store the previous copy (the one before processing) of the map
10:24:02 -!- ehird has joined.
10:28:06 <asiekierka> do you know an algorithm for the game of life without a need to store the previous copy (the one before processing) of the map
10:28:16 <ehird> Yes; that's every life algorithm ever.
10:29:47 <asiekierka> these require you to compare against the previous copy
10:29:47 <asiekierka> 2) process blocks against the duplicate
10:33:04 <ehird> asiekierka: You are totally wrong.
10:33:31 <ehird> ...Wait, what? Your steps make no sense.
10:33:33 <asiekierka> a 256x256x256 map takes up 400mb of ram thanks to perl
10:33:41 <ehird> Fix your data structures.
10:33:55 <asiekierka> also i don't feel like doing a rewrite of code by someone else
10:34:05 <asiekierka> and game of life is just an extra piece of code
10:34:27 <ehird> Well I was almost considering helping you but you went and censored brainfuck.
10:35:18 <ehird> That's the f-word, I can clearly see it and understand it as the f word and if it was meant as an insult I'd be just insulted (—except not really, because I'd be too busy laughing at the ridiculousness of censoring such an insult).
10:35:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | asiekierka is back.
10:35:30 <ehird> A few asterisks makes no difference, no matter what some idiotic prudes may think.
10:35:35 -!- ehird has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
10:37:10 <ehird> Blargh, my keyboard is so sweaty.
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12:02:52 <ehird> hmm, this idea could work. could work.
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13:36:19 <ehird> My mouse is lagging when web pages load; queer.
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14:10:32 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ touch foo
14:10:32 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ ls -l foo/..namedfork
14:10:33 <ehird> ls: foo/..namedfork: Not a directory
14:10:33 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ ls -l foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:10:33 <ehird> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird staff 0 14 Oct 14:10 foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:10:39 <ehird> Behold the befuddling bemusement of HFS+!
14:11:14 <ais523> presumably, ..namedfork is indeed not a directory, but can still be seeked into
14:11:45 <ehird> It's just syntactic sugar you can use to access the forks of an HFS+ file with regular filenames.
14:11:50 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ echo hi >foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:11:50 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ cat foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:12:03 <ehird> (..namedfork/rsrc being the resource fork.)
14:12:19 <ais523> resource forks are information that's bundled with a file?
14:12:27 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_fork
14:12:31 <ehird> "Even in Mac OS X, resource forks are seldom used anymore.", though.
14:13:53 <ehird> ais523: Especially since, e.g. rsync and similar tools will just not look there, making them be lost on backup.
14:14:01 <ehird> Although Apple might have patched rsync at some point to do it.
14:14:13 <ehird> Of course, it fails if you copy data to another filesystem...
14:14:41 <ais523> that's sort-of like a Windows stringtable, except actually sensible
14:15:49 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ touch foo
14:15:49 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ ls -l foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:15:50 <ehird> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird staff 0 14 Oct 14:15 foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:15:50 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ echo hi >foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:15:50 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ cat foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:15:52 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ rm foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:15:54 <ehird> override rw-r--r-- ehird/staff for foo/..namedfork/rsrc? y
14:15:56 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ ls -l foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:15:58 <ehird> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird staff 0 14 Oct 14:15 foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:16:00 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ cat foo/..namedfork/rsrc
14:16:18 <ais523> also, why did rm ask to override the file permissions?
14:16:20 <ehird> [14:11] ais523: presumably, ..namedfork is indeed not a directory, but can still be seeked into
14:16:22 <ehird> it means foo isn't a directory
14:16:27 <ehird> so obviously you can't look at foo/..namedfork
14:17:58 <ehird> Good thing nobody uses this thing.
14:18:12 <ehird> ais523: well, icons are stored in a fork actually iirc
14:18:29 <ais523> Windows has something similar, but only for .exe files
14:18:33 <ais523> and they screwed up the implementation
14:18:43 <ehird> why'm I not surprised?
14:19:28 <ehird> ais523: There is a different attribute mechanism though.
14:19:46 <ehird> xattrs, which is from other Unices. Still used today.
14:19:58 <ehird> It *does* handle other filesystems:
14:20:06 <ehird> you get a file called ._{filename}
14:20:17 <ehird> ...and people extracting .zips from OS X users often see them, along with .DS_Store
14:20:31 <ehird> Oh, the ._{filename} stores resource forks too.
14:21:08 <ehird> % cp /Users/john/file2 .
14:21:08 <ehird> % xattr --list file2
14:21:11 <ehird> -rwxrwxrwx 1 john john 4096 Mar 24 22:09 ._file2
14:21:13 <ehird> -rwxrwxrwx 1 john john 15 Mar 24 22:09 file2
14:21:15 <ehird> —http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2005/04/macosx-10-4.ars/7
14:21:19 <ehird> Well, that's a directory containing them all.
14:21:33 <Asztal> When I extract zips from OS X users it sets the file encryption attribute on the extracted files. :|
14:21:34 <ehird> I wonder in what circumstances they get put in a directory.
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14:22:02 <ehird> that's Jobs protecting his intellectual property.
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14:33:10 <ehird> AAAAAAAARGH! Capital letters!
14:33:23 <ehird> [14:21] Asztal: When I extract zips from OS X users it sets the file encryption attribute on the extracted files. :|
14:33:24 <ehird> [14:21] ais523_ joined the chat room.
14:33:24 <ehird> [14:21] ehird: Asztal: sweet
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15:15:05 <asiekierka> what esolang should be done for minecraft
15:30:56 <ehird> can't...stop...reading...
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16:27:00 <ehird> I wonder why mini-filesystems aren't more widely adopted in OS design.
16:27:29 <ehird> For instance, you could implement a saved-search dealie as a real directory, usable by any tool using the standard fs API, just by implementing a few filesystem calls.
16:28:04 <ehird> Sure, you can do it with FUSE, and Plan 9 has similar stuff, but they're too heavyweight to be the best way to do such things without being just a fun hack.
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17:04:30 <ehird> i'm so hardcore, activating this key by pressing my fingernail on the circuit board
17:04:30 <ehird> because i can't get the keycap back on
17:06:20 <ais523> ehird: still having keyboard trouble?
17:06:36 <ehird> no, I'm just stuck with an obsessive compulsion to take keycaps off
17:06:56 <ehird> which will, I guess, be fine when i have a proper keyboard with separate keycaps and keyswitches :P
17:07:14 <ehird> the model m's even better there
17:07:17 <ehird> it has a keycap, with the label
17:07:22 <ehird> underneath, a plastic key
17:07:27 <ehird> and that rests on top of the buckling spring
17:07:35 <ehird> so you can rearrange the layout while keeping total full pressable keys
17:07:39 <ehird> (while rearranging)
17:07:49 <Deewiant> Rubber dome is terrible for that :-)
17:08:03 <ehird> scissor-switch atm, which is 50x worse
17:08:13 <ehird> because sometimes the switch sticks to the key, sometimes not
17:08:18 <Deewiant> Eh, you can still press it with your fingernail
17:08:19 <ehird> and it's a bitch to get it back on if it sticks to the key
17:08:23 <ehird> with all the connections
17:08:29 <Deewiant> With rubber dome you can't press it without some kind of utensil
17:08:36 <ehird> I can even put the rubber cap on and press that down.
17:08:47 <ehird> Scissor-switch degrades to bad rubber dome :P
17:09:08 <ehird> typing on a model m with just the springs would be fun
17:11:31 <ehird> I wish I'd never found geekhack or browsed elsewhere than the two tenkeyless Filcos on elitekeyboards; then I'd be considering people who spend $256 on a keyboard crazy instead of envying them :(
17:12:57 <ehird> Also, I wouldn't be wondering how to pronounce Topre
17:19:28 <Deewiant> It's 東プレ = topure so pretty much /topre/
17:20:43 <ehird> Yeah, I can't read IPA
17:23:24 <Deewiant> I guess [o] isn't a sound you're used to but [ɒ] is close enough (top, plop, hot, etc.)
17:23:43 <ehird> Oh, I had taken "toh" for granted, heh
17:23:53 <ehird> I was debating "top-er" vs "to-pray"
17:25:34 <Deewiant> [e] is another one which you might not know that well, instead [ɛ] like in "red", "bed", etc.
17:26:25 <ehird> So basically "toe press" without the Ss.
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17:26:59 <ehird> The r in there is kinda hard to pronounce with the rest
17:28:17 <ehird> So, we're discussing the pronunciation of an expensive switch used in niche keyboards.
17:28:23 <ehird> Good afternoon, #esoteric!
17:28:43 <ehird> *computer keyboards
17:28:51 <Deewiant> It's [r], not the lame-ass [ɹ]
17:28:57 <ehird> So, we're discussing the pronunciation of the name of an expensive mechanical switch name used in niche computer keyboards.
17:29:01 <ehird> Good afternoon, #esoteric!
17:29:06 <ehird> Deewiant: Is that latter one the British r?
17:29:14 <ehird> If so, fuck you our Rs are awesome.
17:29:37 <Deewiant> Actually that might be the American one
17:30:24 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure the British one is an approximant and not a trill anyways :-P
17:32:30 <Deewiant> Wikipedia sez [ʋ] is the "mostly idiosyncratic but somewhat dialectal" one, ɻ and ɹ being in "American dialects"
17:32:41 <Deewiant> Anyway, those are all approximants
17:33:16 <ais523> and a brilliant r it is
17:33:30 <ais523> unfortunately, pretty much only Scots can pronounce it, that's a relatively easy way to tell if someone's Scottish or not
17:34:11 <ehird> Scots always sound like they're being jerks and purposefully emphasising their silly accent to me
17:34:15 <ehird> Even if they're just speaking normally
17:37:06 <Deewiant> Well anyway you probably fail at 60% of the sounds in that word
17:37:32 <ehird> You are a horrible prson
17:45:44 * ais523 reads conspiracy theories about the Microsoft/Danger/T-Mobile thing
17:45:46 <ais523> http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/10/12/microsofts-sidekickpink-problems-blamed-on-dogfooding-and-sabotage/
17:46:06 <ais523> the theory is that the reason they couldn't restore from backups is that someone had deliberately sabotaged the backup process
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18:24:01 <Ilari> The backups thingy is too unbelievable to be explainable with incompetence? :->
18:24:30 <ais523> Ilari: considering that they're likely to get sued to oblivion over this, probably
18:24:43 <ais523> T-Mobile apparently had a SLA with Danger, that Microsoft inherited when they bought them
18:25:04 <ais523> and completely deleting all the data stored on a system is about the worst possible breach of an SLA you canget
18:32:39 <Ilari> Where did you hear that somebody issued commands to delete the data?
18:39:46 <ais523> Ilari: it's suggested by that article above
18:39:51 <ais523> which doesn't state it as fact
18:39:57 <ais523> I mentioned in here that it was a conspiracy theory
18:40:02 <ais523> and not one I necessarily believe
18:40:05 <ais523> but conspiracy theories are fun to read
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19:09:19 <Ilari> Especially when those who write them are not incoherent frothing-from-mouth types...
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09:06:32 <ais523> wow, a Firefox error I've never seen before
09:06:55 <ais523> "Wow, this is embarassing." "Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page."
09:07:16 <ais523> I just clicked on "restore" a second time and it worked, though
09:07:27 <ais523> I just thought it was an amusing error message to find in production software
09:07:35 <fizzie> That was added in 3.5.
09:08:04 <fizzie> It does that here every time you make it crash and/or kill it without doing the normal "save and quit" thing.
09:08:23 <fizzie> It's a bit misleading message in that it never has any trouble actually restoring the tabs.
09:09:06 <ehird> ais523: what is it with software trying to be all cutesy?
09:09:42 <ehird> I like Chrome's crashed tab, but it's only a Macintosh homage if you notice it, and the only cutesy text is "Aw, Snap!"
09:09:45 <ais523> anyway, what caused that one was attempting to suspend a computer
09:09:55 <fizzie> qmail gives this sort of fatal error message:
09:09:58 <fizzie> "Hi. This is the qmail-send program at something.something.something.net.
09:09:58 <fizzie> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
09:09:58 <fizzie> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out."
09:09:59 <ais523> it reacted by apparently shutting down immediately
09:10:04 <ais523> but rebooted to a blank screen
09:10:05 <ehird> fizzie: I get that often
09:10:16 <ais523> I get that occasionally; apparently Yahoo uses qmail
09:10:39 <ehird> It annoys me because it's hard to pattern match the error from the loquacious text
09:10:46 <ehird> ohhhhhhhhhhhh I just said loquacious I am AWESOME
09:11:38 <fizzie> I had a horrible feeling when testing a qmail installation, which involves sending a known-to-bounce message; I would have so much liked to answer "really, it's okay, my fault: that message was supposed to bounce" but, well, you can't.
09:12:22 <fizzie> Sad email server makes me sad.
09:13:23 <ehird> You should have just emailed another address that actually works so it could be happy and gleeful.
09:14:25 <ehird> Eek! Phone line people are here.
09:14:29 <ehird> Correction: Eek! People.
09:15:28 <fizzie> They are going to install a surveillance microphone, so that the government can monitor your subversive activities.
09:15:48 <ehird> Well, actually they're just installing a line or something. Or checking if they can.
09:16:03 <ehird> I don't suppose they'll need to see the scattered phone sockets around the house, so MY FORTRESS IS SAFE.
09:17:07 <ehird> Every time I hear other people anything, I feel a slight twitch for MY HOLY FORTRESS. I think I have issues.
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09:39:32 <ehird_> Urgh, am I really on GPRS? It's like a nightmare...
09:39:33 <ais523_> it's like, an underscore convention
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09:47:10 <ais523> clearly, I need to pay more attention...
09:47:44 <ehird> Eh, back to fingering the circuit board for this key.
09:48:31 <ehird> This is probably slightly dangerous.
09:49:03 <ais523> I don't think there's enough of a voltage in a keyboard to hurt you unless you really try
09:49:11 <ehird> Thus "slightly". :P
09:49:14 <ais523> e.g. by wiring the internals directly up to the surface of your heart
09:49:59 <ehird> Circuit boards aren't very tactile.
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10:27:46 <ehird> "MobileDeveloperTV has itself a Maemo-powered Nokia N900, and sure enough, it runs the full version of Google Wave."
10:27:52 <ehird> Pah, 2 jiggahurts phones.
10:27:55 <ehird> I use Wave with my mind.
10:41:34 <fizzie> N900 dropped the USB host mode support, then.
10:41:49 <ais523> option 2 is looking like a good one, it seems
10:42:00 <ais523> the elisp finally turned up, apparently it needs human interaction as well
10:42:25 <ais523> basically, the plan's to use an evolutionary computing stage, which alternates between the computer evaluating the fitness function, and the human tweaking the input to get better output...
10:48:10 <ehird> Cool, TextEdit supports .odt
10:48:12 <ais523> the code apparently wasn't meant to be used by anyone else
10:48:14 <fizzie> Also, in case ais523 didn't yet notice and still cares about the Sidekick conspiracy: "Microsoft recovers 'most, if not all' Sidekick customer data"
10:48:21 <ais523> ehird: the support was ridiculously partial last I saw it
10:48:30 <ehird> ais523: Possibly. Still.
10:48:36 <ehird> ais523: If you link me to a fancy-shmancy odt I can try it.
10:48:36 <ais523> I still care about the conspiracy theories, because they're fun to read
10:48:37 <fizzie> ais523: http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/?category.id=Sidekick
10:48:46 <ais523> I want to see how the conspiracy theorists deal with this one
10:49:07 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/15/microsoft-recovers-most-if-not-all-sidekick-customer-customer/
10:49:14 <ehird> Less horrific than some random T-Mobile forum.
10:49:28 <ais523> "We have determined that the outage was caused by a system failure that created data loss in the core database and the back-up."
10:49:29 <ehird> Admittedly it's not a very useful article, but still.
10:49:35 <fizzie> Yes, well, that was the "read" link of that engadget article.
10:49:42 * ais523 wonders how that's even possible...
10:49:59 <ehird> Hey, EtherPad can import from txt/html/doc/rtf.
10:50:04 <ehird> Now hwy can't it export as rtf?
10:50:11 <fizzie> Also a strange /.-linked story: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html
10:50:46 <ais523> actually, this is quite a good result; most customers get their data back, and Microsoft still gets sued into oblivion for massive breach of contract
10:50:48 <ehird> So everyone in Finland can have free one megabit internet?
10:50:56 <fizzie> I don't think "free" is included anywhere.
10:51:02 <ehird> Then how is it a right
10:51:11 <ehird> What about people who are totally broke?
10:51:40 <ehird> "France's Constitutional Council ruled that Internet access is a basic human right." // i didn't realise anyone had gone that progressive yet
10:52:00 <ehird> [[But Finland's definition of "access" to broadband is a little fuzzy. According to the Helsinki Times when it reported the 100Mb target last year, the Finnish government said that no household "would be farther than 2 kilometers from a connection capable of delivering broadband Internet with a capacity of at least 100 megabits of data a second." It did say, though, that "about 2,000 (households) in far-flung corners of the country" wouldn't be included.
10:52:00 <ehird> Ostensibly, Finland plans to keep that same distribution when its 1Mb broadband access is implemented.]]
10:52:25 <ais523> it seems kind-of weird to have Internet access as a human right, when the Internet didn't even exist 100 years ago
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10:52:37 <ehird> What's age got to do with it?
10:52:43 <ehird> It wasn't a right then because nobody used the internet.
10:53:08 <ais523> human rights strike me as the sort of things which always were needed and always will be
10:54:11 <ehird> What a person needs for anything beyond raw survival has changed over the years.
10:54:27 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, that definition falls hopelessly short; for example, nobody needs free speech to survive.
10:54:33 <ehird> But it's still a basic human right.
10:54:41 <ais523> I didn't say "to survive"
10:55:08 <ais523> in fact, it makes sense to say that Internet access is the only practical way to achieve truly free speech nowadays, for instance
10:55:14 <ais523> but that's different from making the Internet itself a right
10:55:16 <ais523> it's a means, not an end
10:55:32 <fizzie> The in-Finnish article has more details; the local regulatory body will designate a couple of tele-operators that are required to provide the service, and those companies need to provide that one megabit at a "reasonable" price to every permanent dwelling or company office.
10:55:39 <ehird> Well, I'm not surprised it doesn't make sense to someone who rapidly avoids the web...
10:55:54 <ehird> Obviously IRC is not much of a necessity.
10:56:32 <fizzie> Also funny way of specifying the speed: you will have to get (on average) at least 75 % of the megabit during any 24-hour period, and at least 50 % during any 4-hour period.
11:02:46 <ehird> I really, really need window GC.
11:04:08 <ais523> apparently Android does something like that
11:04:21 <ais523> it keeps processes running in the background, and signals them to save and exit when they haven't been used for a while
11:08:55 <ehird> Clever for stateless things like iPhone apps; could be a pain for IRC clients and their ilk, but I assume it can be disabled by an app.
11:09:14 <ehird> But I don't want them destroyed permanently, just put in a dated archive in case I really need them.
11:09:23 <ehird> I accumulate windows and tabs like crazy when browsing the web.
11:09:30 <ais523> Android apps are supposed to be able to do that themselves
11:09:35 <ais523> as in, they're supposed to persist to disk then exit
11:10:30 <ehird> What's that got to do with anything I've said?
11:14:24 <ais523> aargh, stupid BlogNomic moving the sidebar to the left
11:14:42 <ais523> http://blognomic.com/archive/queries_and_notices/ needs someone like ehird yelling at them to explain why what they're doing is all a really bad idea
11:15:01 <ehird> It does look significantly more cluttered. Left sidebars can be done but not by wantonly moving things around...
11:15:36 <ehird> e.g. http://daringfireball.net/ pull off a left-aligned sidebar with lots and lots of whitespace... but BlogNomic looks terrible now.
11:15:49 <ais523> incidentally, does Fitts' Law allow for the fact that it's easier to hit small targets near (but not at) the edge of the screen than it is to hit targets near the middle? (Of course, it's easier still to hit targets actually at the edge)
11:15:54 <ehird> It doesn't help that they're still using that overly-minimal theme.
11:16:07 <ehird> ais523: Probably; I'm not sure
11:16:17 <ehird> I'm only familiar with the most basic results of the law
11:16:47 <ehird> "BlogNomic IRC Channel | Alternate Link"
11:16:53 <ehird> why are they linking to two web clients?!
11:16:59 <ais523> the first's Java-based, IIRC
11:17:06 <ehird> without even noting which to use in a situation...
11:17:10 <ais523> so the second one gets around firewalls
11:17:25 <ehird> thus guaranteeing either one of the links to be useless, or to annoy people by making them click both
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11:18:57 <ais523> blognomic admins have too much of a tendency to mess with the software for the sake of messing with it
11:19:07 <ais523> which is strange, considering how rarely they do that with the ruleset
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11:19:56 <ehird> ais523: Probably because Expression Engine has so many buttons.
11:20:12 <ais523> they're editing the HTML directly
11:21:28 <ais523> which is the implication I got from your comment
11:22:26 <ehird> ais523: I just meant that it's such an overly-customisable, overly-generic (Is it a blog engine? A user accounts framework for subapplications? A... thing? It's ExpressionEngine!) piece of software that nanturally all the little preferences just beg to be clicked around.
11:22:39 <ehird> Including the templates.
11:24:54 * ais523 reads a D&D version flamewar
11:26:27 <fizzie> Haha, it's so futuristic: http://vimeo.com/6496886
11:27:12 <fizzie> Yes, I guess siggraph was quite a while ago.
11:27:14 <ehird> Windows only, though, so meh.
11:27:21 <ehird> I saw it a few days ago.
11:27:27 <ehird> The demos are almost certainly tuned to work properly.
11:27:39 <fizzie> Sure, but it makes for a fancy video.
11:27:59 <ehird> ais523: I don't play D&D — do people just fight over 3v4 or are there crazy niche sect arguments about, I don't know, 1.5 revision 2 vs 3.4 draft 5? :D
11:28:21 <ais523> the major fight is 2v3v4
11:28:27 <ais523> fights within a version are very rare
11:28:42 <ais523> e.g. most people prefer 3.5 to 3.0, the only complaint was about having to buy the books twice
11:28:53 <ais523> come to think of it, there are probably still fans of 1 around
11:29:00 <ehird> I was about to ask.
11:29:27 <ais523> less numerous than the others, though
11:29:56 <ehird> I want to write a roguelike.
11:31:12 <ais523> I have insane plans to write a roguelike as an Enigma level, but that'll take months and I don't have the time right now
11:31:13 <ehird> I guess I can write a simple one in a few hundred lines; some crappy floor generation, stupid enemies and a few items, plus portals to other floors.
11:31:39 <ehird> In fact, the hardest bit will probably be the IO.
11:32:18 <ehird> I'd make it graphical, but rendering ASCII graphics in a graphical window would be so silly. Also, probably harder than ncurses, even though it gives better with my personal preferences.
11:33:11 <ais523> you could do curses first and write a tiles version later
11:33:38 <ehird> Yes, I will. But still, curses is a bitch.
11:33:52 <ehird> I do believe I should incorporate http://buttersafe.com/2008/09/25/cat-fight/ into the game mechanics.
11:34:00 <ais523> I don't really mind curses
11:34:09 <ais523> (what a stupid name...)
11:34:24 <ehird> "Curses: fuck that shit."
11:34:58 <ais523> don't make me break out the butterfly net
11:35:16 <ehird> (In case anyone doesn't want to bother loading that whole page: http://buttersafe.com/comics/2008-09-25-CatFight.jpg)
11:37:33 <ais523> heh, someone's busy trying to argue about whether Batman would wear armour or not
11:37:48 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, by "graphical" I still meant the actual tiles would be textual.
11:37:49 <ais523> he's arguing not, on the basis that it wouldn't make any difference
11:37:53 <ehird> (But only because I'm lazy.)
11:38:05 <ais523> ehird: actually, that's how DNA Maze works
11:38:13 <ehird> Yes. I'd use a stock font, though.
11:38:14 <ais523> it writes text by blitting the individual letters to the screen
11:38:17 <ais523> saves messing around with fonts
11:38:49 <ehird> Well, I was mainly meaning for the menus, buttons and easier cursor manipulation sort of thing.
11:39:02 <ehird> Also, the ability to hover an object's identification above it if you're near enough.
11:39:20 <ehird> (Which you can do with text, sure, but it obscures stuff. With a semi-transparent, small font, only doable in a GUI, however...)
11:39:25 <ais523> I want to add hover-farlook to my NetHack interface
11:39:40 <ais523> hover something to see what it is
11:39:46 <ais523> rather than having to use ;
11:39:49 <ais523> ideally, in text mode too
11:39:59 <ehird> In mine it would be automatic; just get within, say, 5x5 of it.
11:40:01 <ais523> although, it might need to click just because of how text-mode mouse detection works
11:40:05 <ehird> Or I could have it appear above everything, since, you know, you could just ;.
11:41:17 <ais523> one thing I'm wondering about is a list of ambiguous monsters
11:41:26 <ais523> e.g. if there are mind flayers and dwarf kings in a room
11:41:30 <ais523> it would underline, say, the mind flayers
11:41:41 <ais523> with a key saying h mind flayer \ h dwarf king
11:41:55 <ehird> Okay, game mechanic: There is a cat, labelled so. You attack it. It turns out to be a brick cat (and thus it hurts you a little) and its label now reflects this. You can pick up the brick cat, and put it on an activator thing that you'd normally put a stone on.
11:42:08 <ehird> (Or, you can keep kicking it until you die.)
11:42:23 <ais523> sort of like a reverse cockatrice
11:42:26 <ais523> you touch it, and it turns to stone
11:42:45 <ehird> Well, it *was* stone all along, you just didn't know that.
11:42:58 <ehird> I suppose picking it up without attacking it first should give you some luck points or something.
11:43:08 <ehird> (Doing that to an actual cat enemy would presumably result in damage.)
11:43:41 <ais523> well, that sort of thing already happens in NetHack
11:43:49 <ais523> you can try to move onto a cat to pick it up, using m and the cat's direction
11:44:00 <ais523> but you'll get "You move right into the cat", or whatever, and lose your turn
11:44:07 <ais523> and so the cat will get a chance to attack you
11:44:30 <ehird> In my case it'd be that you can pick up a brick cat because, well, it's just brick. But trying to pick up an angry cat's just gonna result in scratches.
11:44:45 <ehird> Of course, picking up every cat you see in the hopes that it'll be made out of brick is unlikely to pay off...
11:44:54 <ais523> what sort of hero can't distinguish a brick from a cat?
11:45:06 <ehird> http://buttersafe.com/comics/2008-09-25-CatFight.jpg
11:45:12 <ehird> It could happen to you!
11:46:07 <ais523> it seems that AngBand has a mechanic like this, where , could indicate a door, a mushroom (item), or a mushroom (monster)
11:46:22 <ais523> gah, NetHack has given me an intrinsic urge to CamelCase all roguelike-related proper nouns
11:47:00 <ehird> Clearly my final boss should have the same tile as the floor.
11:47:11 <ehird> (Or, slightly less ridiculously, the weakest, most common enemy in the game.)
11:47:16 <ais523> there's one of those in at least one Angband variant too
11:47:37 <ais523> but IMO, anything that provokes paranoid farlooking is a bad idea
11:47:50 <ais523> so, it would have to also look like the floor if you tried to find out what it was remotely
11:47:53 <ehird> Well, you'd know when you get to the end boss, anyway.
11:47:58 <ehird> But yes, it would.
11:48:05 <ehird> It'd also have no transparent-identification-text.
11:48:16 <ehird> (There'd be no actual look command.)
11:48:22 <ehird> But that's equivalent to an invisible boss, really.
11:48:35 <ais523> one that can't be seen with see invisible
11:50:20 <ehird> This should be fun.
11:50:22 <ehird> (Maybe I can keep the UI code I write for later, more substantial games.)
11:50:41 <ehird> So tempted to go the graphical route right now for those shiny identification labels.
11:51:06 <ais523> and post it as a 7-day roguelike
11:51:13 <ehird> You want me to keep up a whole project for 7 days?!
11:51:31 <ais523> this is annoying: there's a siren in the background, but I don't think it's the fire alarm
11:51:43 <ais523> it seems to have stopped, anyway
11:52:10 <ehird> Anyway, I do wonder if it'd be worth releasing it; I doubt there are many OS X-using roguelike players.
11:52:40 <ehird> And I'm not futzing about with cross-platform GUI libaries... And I can't do ncurses because, shiny labels! :<
11:53:53 <ehird> ais523: Incidentally, is Rogue any good
11:54:03 <ais523> ehird: it's rather primitive, but still a decent game
11:54:27 <ais523> very similar to NetHack, but slightly more annoying
11:54:33 <ais523> and with fewer things in, but you're unlikely to notice
11:54:41 <ais523> unless you know a lot about NetHack
11:54:50 <ais523> or get a long distance into both games
11:55:20 <ais523> anyway, I have a meeting, I'm leaving for a while, probably about 2 hours
11:55:46 <fizzie> I have a soft spot for Rogue, since it was probably among the first computer games I played. For some inexplicable reason, our I-think-it-was-a-286 had a copy installed.
11:56:31 <Deewiant> As far as I remember, my first roguelike was Omega
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12:16:00 * ehird realises, while reading a comment from Jef Raskin on a website circa 2004, that he died a year later
12:16:32 <ehird> My life is filled with realisations! Also, neurons firing.
12:18:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:19:16 <ehird> (Ouch— then two comments later, "I wish I had taken the opportunity to apologize to Jef before he passed away. I didn't mean to offend him. It's a shame to see him go.")
12:26:01 <oerjan> <ais523> actually, this is quite a good result; most customers get their data back, and Microsoft still gets sued into oblivion for massive breach of contract
12:26:16 <oerjan> hey, don't make me actually feel sorry for microsoft here!
12:27:09 <ais523> meh, that's impossible
12:27:16 <ais523> I feel sorry for Microsoft's employees (collectively)
12:27:25 <ais523> but not really for the corporate evil intelligence that's controlling them
12:27:28 <ehird> Sometimes I feel sorry for Microsoft! But only sometimes.
12:27:50 <ehird> Time to read some more keyboard forum!
12:29:10 * oerjan wonders how you'd go about creating a corporation type that _wasn't_ intrinsically psychopathic
12:29:30 <ais523> I'm not sure it's possible
12:29:33 <ais523> if it is, it should probably be done
12:29:51 <oerjan> perhaps it requires solving the friendly AI problem first
12:29:54 <ehird> Capitalism is intrinsically psychopathic and sociopathic.
12:30:36 <ais523> hmm... is there an easy way to determine your own screen res?
12:30:37 <oerjan> um is there a difference between psychopathic and sociopathic? i thought the latter was just a bit more politically correct term...
12:30:46 <ehird> oerjan: Pretty sure there is.
12:31:20 <ehird> I was sure there was a minor difference.
12:31:38 <ehird> ais523: In what OS?
12:31:46 <ehird> But yes; JS exposes it.
12:32:13 <ehird> http://www.pageresource.com/jscript/jscreen.htm
12:32:15 <oerjan> it's actually the other way around
12:32:23 <ais523> setings seem locked down
12:32:31 <oerjan> "Sociopathy is no longer a correct term to use, and when it is used it actually refers to what is considered Antisocial Personality Disorder."
12:32:34 <ehird> javascript:alert(screen.width+"x"+screen.height)
12:32:37 <ehird> ais523: javascript:alert(screen.width+"x"+screen.height)
12:32:52 <ais523> seems this is 1024x768
12:32:57 <ais523> but couldn't quite believe it
12:33:18 <ais523> still, I grew up in an environment where 1024x768 was a lot
12:33:42 * ehird receives a spam addressed to penguinmonkey@hotmail.com, penguinmouse@hotmail.com, penguinmuncher@msn.com, penguinn@live.com, penguinocanada@hotmail.com, penguinofdeath@msn.com, penguinofthegods@gmail.com, penguinoh@hotmail.com, and penguinonshromes@hotmail.com
12:34:03 <ehird> Email itself is rather typical: "hey! just browsing people in my area im new here and saw your pic (youre totally cute and my type) add me on windowwslive messengor paris21tina@hotmail.com is my name on it, add me on it because i dont use email much. i have a built in cam on this new laptop i got so i can send you some photos of myself as well. ttys i hope! "
12:34:22 <ehird> Got another one with similarly penguin-related names from another name and a different address.
12:34:24 <ais523> I haven't seen spam like that before
12:34:26 <ehird> Spam-reported-magick!
12:34:41 <Deewiant> ais523: Obviously you're not totally cute and her type!
12:34:43 <ais523> what would happen if you did add them on wlm?
12:34:58 <ehird> Deewiant: I think at least one of them is a he
12:35:02 <ais523> they'd spam you there too?
12:35:05 <ehird> ais523: Link to a password-grabbing site, I imagine
12:35:24 <ehird> Like "Click here to see my photos http://stealpassword.badlyforgedsite.photosmagicomg.com/totallyfrommicrosoft/youcangiveusyourmsndetails"
12:35:34 <ais523> I wonder if half the spammers in the world nowadays are doing it for fun, and don't have any idea how to profit from their spam
12:35:36 <ehird> And then spam other people with it.
12:35:51 <ais523> like the spambots which post random nonsense to wikis, without any URLs or anything like that
12:36:01 <ehird> That's just testing whether they can be spammed easily, I think.
12:36:06 <ehird> Before selling the URLs.
12:36:58 <ais523> ehird: ah, interesting
12:37:11 * AnMaster curses the voice saying "You now have number 78. Estimated waiting time is 50 minutes"
12:37:38 <ehird> "Sorry for the interruption. We have been receiving a large volume of requests from your network. To continue with your YouTube experience, please enter the verification code below."
12:37:42 <ehird> No shit, it's a crazy 3G stick thing
12:37:49 <ehird> ("YouTube experience")
12:37:55 <ehird> WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY
12:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hm so you are behind NAT?
12:38:25 <oerjan> ehird: i have certainly received spam that looked like the recipients were part of an alphabetic list before...
12:38:30 -!- dbc has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:38:30 -!- Deewiant has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:38:36 <ehird> I can't complain; I'm getting almost a megabit indoors in a village.
12:38:44 <ehird> And only ~300ms latency.
12:38:46 <fizzie> Based on those email addresses, "her type" must equal penguins.
12:39:01 <ais523> ehird: hexham? or somewhere else?
12:39:07 <AnMaster> <oerjan> ehird: i have certainly received spam that looked like the recipients were part of an alphabetic list before... <-- yeah that is quite common
12:39:09 <ehird> ais523: I moved, yeah?
12:39:13 <ehird> Didn't you get the memo? :P
12:39:19 <ais523> I'm vaguely aware that you moved
12:39:22 <ais523> I have no idea how far, though
12:39:33 <ehird> Like, less than five miles, probably?
12:39:34 <oerjan> and if the list is huge enough, it could certainly contain only penguins...
12:40:01 <ehird> It's very close to Prudhoe, anyway.
12:40:09 -!- Deewiant has joined.
12:40:13 <ais523> ok, now you live somewhere I /haven't/ heard of
12:40:22 <ais523> although, I presume you were surprised I'd even heard of Hexham in the first place
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12:40:56 <ehird> ais523: Very easy way to find out: It's a small village near Prudhoe that shares all but the suffix of its name with a village right next to it.
12:41:10 <ehird> (Like "Poopunt", "Pooplee".)
12:41:45 <ehird> AnMaster: But it's almost "prude ho"!
12:42:00 <ehird> Lived in Prudhoe before Hexham, anyawy.
12:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, to me it looked more like "prod hoe"
12:42:14 -!- Deewiant has quit (Client Quit).
12:42:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It's pronounced "prud oh"
12:42:24 -!- Deewiant has joined.
12:42:26 <ehird> Oh, Google Maps actually classes it as in Prudhoe
12:42:53 <AnMaster> ehird, be happy it was a p and not a c at least
12:43:21 <ehird> Just checked; the village is 10 miles away from Hexham.
12:43:46 <ehird> 2.3 miles away from Prudhoe.
12:44:15 <fizzie> On one zoom level, there's a Ovington/Ovingham pair of labels that fill the criterion maybe.
12:44:27 <AnMaster> ehird, is that mile the one that is roughly 1.6 km?
12:44:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I clearly mean nautical miles.
12:44:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a third option.
12:44:51 <ehird> Yes, mile = 1.60 km.
12:44:55 <AnMaster> Swedish miles. Which are 10 km
12:45:30 <oerjan> metric miles in norway too
12:45:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah then it isn't just Sweden that use that
12:45:54 <fizzie> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=prudhoe&sll=52.66972,-1.933594&sspn=25.669598,53.481445&ll=54.968654,-1.89777&spn=0.0059,0.013057&t=h&z=17 -- that's a tiny place.
12:45:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Especially as I estimated it as <5miles.
12:45:58 <AnMaster> yeah metric miles is a good name
12:46:09 <ehird> Rather hard not to notice the difference between <50 miles and 100 miles.
12:46:26 <AnMaster> ehird, nautical miles wasn't completely impossible though.
12:46:32 <ehird> Also, you *were* here when I moved; I wasn't more than an hour or so.
12:46:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I didn't go in a boat.
12:46:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the verb had an accident there
12:47:09 <AnMaster> ehird, also nm is used for aviation too
12:47:12 <ehird> fizzie: What, Prudhoe?
12:47:17 <AnMaster> "<ehird> Also, you *were* here when I moved; I wasn't [away] more than an hour or so."
12:47:21 <ehird> Prudhoe isn't tiny.
12:47:34 <ehird> *Ovington* is tiny.
12:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: No, what I said was valid.
12:47:50 <fizzie> That link points to Ovington; at least it tries to point what google labels as that.
12:47:50 <ehird> away is an adjective.
12:47:58 <ehird> I don't actually know.
12:48:02 <ehird> fizzie: You linked to Prudhoe.
12:48:13 <ehird> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ovington,+Prudhoe,+Northumberland,+UK&sll=54.968654,-1.89777&sspn=0.003597,0.007961&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Ovington,+Prudhoe,+Northumberland,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=13
12:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: No, not an adverb.
12:48:38 <AnMaster> <fizzie> That link points to Ovington; at least it tries to point what google labels as that. <-- no it pointed to prudho... for me
12:48:40 <fizzie> That's what I get (though zoomed in a lot) when I open my link.
12:48:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually wikipedia calls somethign else metric mile, ours is the scandinavian mile
12:48:53 <ehird> fizzie: Well, you're on crack.
12:48:55 <Deewiant> The page says prudhoe but the location on the map is ovington.
12:48:59 <fizzie> I mean, the q= string says Prudhoe, but that's just because it's what I used to find it.
12:49:34 <oerjan> apparently the old norwegian and swedish mile, while different, were both 10-12 km
12:49:36 <ehird> fizzie: I clicked it; I know what it comes up with. :P
12:49:41 <ais523> wow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovington,_Northumberland
12:49:53 <ehird> We have a WP article?!
12:49:54 <ais523> I wasn't certain there'd be a Wikipedia article on it
12:50:00 <ehird> I couldn't even find any relevant results on Google
12:50:04 <ais523> but they have been trying to add articles on everything larger than a hamlet in the entire world
12:50:05 <ehird> Argh, my mouse lags so
12:50:13 <ais523> so I'm not surprised that someone went through it
12:50:19 <ais523> I /am/ surprised that it's more than a stat dump, though
12:50:31 <ehird> No population stats.
12:50:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: also the metric system was introduced during the swedish-norwegian union, so not strange that we share it
12:50:53 <ais523> heh, it spends an entire paragraph on how they hardly have a clue about its history
12:51:03 <fizzie> My father's birthplace is probably equally tiny, and it has a wp article too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mätäsvaara
12:51:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, true. We did some good over there in Norway after all ;P
12:51:36 <ehird> fizzie: Tempted to replace it with "Mätäsvaara is a village."
12:52:20 <ehird> Ovington House bed and breakfast accommodation in Ovington ...
12:52:20 <ehird> Ovington House bed and breakfast accommodation, Ovington, Northumberland situated close to Newcastle upon Tyne and the Roman Wall offers a warm welcome to ...
12:52:27 <ehird> Adding "Northumberland" to my query seems to haev helped.
12:52:42 <fizzie> fi.wikipedia has some details too; there's a mine, there, that's about it.
12:56:12 <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3511/4012519527_dd1a95b262_b.jpg
12:58:13 <Deewiant> Hooray for PHP: 1 == TRUE == "x" == 0 == "" == NULL == FALSE
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13:11:11 <ehird> Deewiant: You ought to reply to the elitekeyboards owner on geekhack.org; he's claiming that the zeros have zero problems whatsoever at speeds well above 115WPM and it's all the typist's fault
13:11:11 <fizzie> "liitumassan kiskojakit" would be something like "rail-yaks of the chalk mass".
13:11:12 <ehird> I like how concisely you can express that
13:12:02 <fizzie> So: Isaiah is a powerful draw, and the rail-yaks of the chalk mass. (Reference transcript through google-translate: "big and powerful locomotive was coming along rails".)
13:12:30 <fizzie> Hey, there's two correct words an all.
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13:14:15 <ehird> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2009/10/3/151357/469
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13:18:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: "Iso ja voimakas veturi oli tulossa kiskoja pitkin"?
13:19:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: You have solved the riddle! You get 15 points. Points can be exchanged for other, identical points.
13:19:29 <Deewiant> Not /too/ far off the mark, then. If it hadn't lost the "ri" and the "kin" at the end it might've been a lot better.
13:19:35 <oerjan> what about differently colored points?
13:20:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: Cool! I'll exchange ten of my points for ten points and then combine it with the remaining five to get 15 points
13:20:16 <fizzie> Done! You now have 15 points.
13:20:31 <ehird> fizzie: I exchange my 0 points with MISSINGNO points.
13:20:47 <oerjan> i stealthily paint one of Deewiant's points yellow
13:20:49 <ehird> (It's a wildcard that equals how many points you exchange it for)
13:21:02 <fizzie> ehird: Done! You now have Äñ0ê:ìgLARø9hZDݟÔùyu=IwåEæwV^ûW³iùø¢... NO CARRIER
13:21:57 <ehird> fizzie: I purchase a CARRIER.
13:22:21 <fizzie> You have an AIRCRAFT CARRIER. This means war!
13:23:00 * oerjan lends ehird the swatter to swat incoming aircraft -----###
13:23:14 <ehird> I fly my AIRCRAFT CARRIER over to Deewiant's head and drop my Äñ0ê:ìgLARø9hZDݟÔùyu=IwåEæwV^ûW³iùø¢ on him.
13:23:40 <Deewiant> I throw my yellow point at the Äñ0ê:ìgLARø9hZDݟÔùyu=IwåEæwV^ûW³iùø¢
13:23:57 <ehird> I swat the yellow point before it hits me.
13:24:03 <ehird> You are bad at aiming.
13:24:27 <Deewiant> There goes my only yellow point.
13:24:47 <ehird> I sneakily steal 7 of your 14 points.
13:24:57 <ehird> With my AIRCRAFT CARRIER's point-steal-o-motron.
13:25:19 <ehird> I fly off into the distance, inexplicably slow-mo as my AIRCRAFT CARRIER just barely outruns an explosion.
13:25:21 <Deewiant> I use my remaining 7 points to buy 7 AIRCRAFT CARRIERs.
13:26:15 <ehird> I use my 7 points to buy three and a half BETTER AIRCRAFT CARRIERs.
13:26:51 <Deewiant> I grab the yellow point you swatted away and use it to buy an ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
13:27:34 <ehird> I sell my AIRCRAFT CARRIER for a point, buy jet black paint for a point, and hastily paint my BETTER AIRCRAFT CARRIERs, thus making them ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIERs.
13:27:49 <ehird> Oh, and also the half BETTER AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
13:27:54 <ehird> It becomes an ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
13:28:05 <oerjan> you fail. there was only enough black paint for a point, not a whole carrier.
13:28:14 <ehird> oerjan: THAT IS NOT HOW THE ECONOMY WORKS
13:28:31 <ehird> But fine, I paint a point black and use my black point to buy a shit ton of jet black paint right before I started painting them
13:29:12 <Deewiant> This economy is kinda broken what with just painting a point making it a shit ton more valuable while the paint itself is cheap
13:30:06 <oerjan> at least this economy has a point.
13:30:12 <ehird> I fly my ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT over to Deewiant and steal his complete lack of an anvil a few meters above his head.
13:30:42 <ehird> I fly my ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER over to Deewiant and steal his complete lack of an anvil a few meters above his head.
13:30:50 <Deewiant> In response I steal the complete lack of the absence of an ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER near you
13:31:08 <ehird> But I don't have that; after all, around me is near me.
13:31:17 <ehird> And there is an ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER around me.
13:31:28 <ehird> Before you can reword, I fly off into the distance.
13:31:42 <ehird> Inexplicably fast-mo as I get chased by a bird with the Benny Hill music playing.
13:32:17 <Deewiant> Around you is X, so you lack the absence of X around you.
13:32:52 <ehird> A time paradox occurs and it turns out that that bird was just chasing me hovering in the air somehow.
13:32:52 * oerjan declares use of double negation a war crime
13:33:19 <AnMaster> "<ehird> I fly my AIRCRAFT CARRIER" <-- wait... what?
13:33:50 <ehird> I swat my lack of 2 points to death. I purchase some jet black paint with one point, paint the other point and buy a bomb with the painted point.
13:33:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_aircraft_carrier
13:34:05 <ehird> Now I have: 3 ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS; a bomb
13:34:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Hey, I didn't even notice, heh
13:34:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh. right. They aren't usually what the term "aircraft carrier" refers to though.
13:34:41 <Deewiant> I exchange your continuous linguistic failure for 10 points
13:35:36 <ehird> I ... whatever the verb is for water, like "fly" for air ... an ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIER, and switch it into flight mode. It takes off into the air, and I exchange my badassery for 10 points.
13:36:02 <Deewiant> I do the whole buy-paint-and-repaint-ad-infinitum thing and end up with a rainbow-colored point which I exchange for an INTERGALACTIC STARFIGHTER CARRIER. I head into orbit.
13:36:35 * oerjan flees this universe before the escalating war destroys it
13:36:40 <ehird> I purchase the All-Encompassing Space Empire with charm; good looks.
13:37:22 <ehird> I swat someone until they give me a point, which I use to buy some rope.
13:37:48 <ehird> I tie my three ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS together, thus making them into an INEXPLICABLY SPACE-FARING ULTIMATE THREE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS TIED TOGETHER.
13:38:08 <ehird> I head into orbit around Deewiant's INTERGALACTIC STARFIGHTER CARRIER.
13:38:14 <Deewiant> I rush into the asteroid belt and mine the rocks for 100 points, which I swiftly furbish into 10 rainbow-coloured points.
13:38:29 <ehird> I throw a Furby at Deewiant.
13:38:48 <Deewiant> I rent a DIMENSIONAL PORTAL and, leaving my INTERGALACTIC STARFIGHTER CARRIER behind as a decoy, flee to wherever oerjan went.
13:39:33 <Deewiant> Your Furby impacts with the CARRIER and bounces off harmlessly.
13:39:42 <ehird> I said at you, not at the CARRIER.
13:39:48 <ehird> I grab a point from some random peon in the Empire and ascend to a higher plane of existence by jumping into space and suffocating; at the very moment I die, I eat the point.
13:39:55 <Deewiant> You suck at throwing as much as I do.
13:40:14 <ehird> I navigate to Deewiant's trans-dimensional plane axis.
13:40:22 <ehird> I exhume myself right next to Deewiant, and punch him.
13:41:05 * oerjan sneaks back to the old universe and closes the portal behind him
13:41:27 <ehird> I climb into Deewiant's space-suit and smash the window.
13:41:49 <fizzie> "I climb into Deewiant's space-suit" sounds like the start of some sort of indecent slashfic.
13:41:52 <ehird> As Deewiant floats out, grasping for air, I steal: 2 points; lint.
13:42:02 <ehird> I dispel any notions of slashficcery.
13:42:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Is that your "oh god I need oxygen" face?
13:42:33 <ehird> (Or are you just happy to *swatted*
13:43:12 <Deewiant> I mutter "it's full of stars" and whatnot as a result of oxygen deprivation and being in outer space.
13:43:18 * oerjan retrieves the swatter from the CARRIER
13:43:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? ehird stole your swatter too?
13:43:32 <ehird> Hey, I still have my own swatter you know.
13:43:44 <ehird> AnMaster: No, oerjan lent me his.
13:43:51 <ehird> I gather he has an infinite amount of them.
13:44:02 <oerjan> that is classified information
13:44:21 * AnMaster suspects uncountably infinite at least.
13:44:32 <ehird> I swat Deewiant a few times, decide that this is getting boring, do the whole suffocation-absorbtion-into-hyperdimensional-plane spiel, except this time with Deewiant, not the point.
13:44:57 <oerjan> there is only one true swatter. the number of decoys is, however, classified.
13:44:58 <ehird> I promptly separate from Deewiant and jump back into the hyperspatial axis of the universe we were in, this time in the CARRIER, next to oerjan.
13:45:17 <fizzie> I regret starting the whole point thing.
13:45:21 * oerjan points out that ehird is dead in this universe
13:45:37 <ehird> oerjan: I have a license to be a non-brain-desiring zombie.
13:45:41 <fizzie> Oh, you POINT out. I see what you did there!
13:46:09 <Deewiant> ehird: This is why "pun not intended" is useful.
13:46:13 <ehird> Is Deewiant still in the hyperdimensional plane? That would explain his INEXPLICABLE SILENCE.
13:46:43 <ehird> Anyway, I exhume myself since I forgot to. Hi oerjan!
13:46:52 <oerjan> if i left it in after adding "pun not intended", it would be a lie
13:47:50 <ehird> I tap my fingers waiting for Deewiant.
13:47:58 <ehird> Got any points, oerjan? I need to do something.
13:48:12 <oerjan> i am completely pointless
13:48:24 * oerjan ducks out of the CARRIER
13:48:26 <ehird> Good! Then you won't mind... I sell oerjan as a slave, gaining 2 points.
13:48:40 <ehird> Curses! Foiled again!
13:48:46 * oerjan runs away, bumping into a car, which explodes
13:49:10 <ehird> I fly my CARRIER over to oerjan, pick him up, sell him as a slave for 1 and a half points.
13:49:15 <ehird> (He's known to be volatile now.)
13:49:39 <ehird> I do the whole paint spiel to get myself a rainbow point, and buy a mountain made out of LSD.
13:49:48 <oerjan> someone once claimed to me that oerjan means "slave" in finnish
13:50:18 <Deewiant> You'll need to remove the e and the n to get there
13:50:22 <ehird> I give away LSD liberally, and become president of the universe.
13:50:33 <Deewiant> Removing just the e will get you "slave's"
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13:51:17 <ehird> I jump into the hyperdimensional planevortexthing with a sample of the mountain, force-feed it to Deewiant's astral plane existence, and drop back into whence I came, where we use less bullshit-filled terms.
13:51:22 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought you already had an All-Encompassing Space Empire?
13:51:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's also the correct accusative case; "I buy a slave" -- "ostan orjan".
13:51:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, turns out that means "some kid's lawn".
13:52:05 <ehird> [Deewiant runs into an elephant which is planet earth. It flips his 4th-dimensional superspace and he turns into a mushroom.]
13:52:21 <ehird> [The walls, of which there aren't any, melt.]
13:53:09 <ehird> [White noise fills existence. A bellowing vortex shouts: "''hhhow many things are' things? ! i would like to KNOw!". Your fffffffffffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccceeeeeeee is murdered all pinky-shaded.]
13:53:25 <ehird> I take it you have no intention of moving. :P
13:54:29 <ehird> [The carcass of Jesus' face talks about Proust.]
13:56:04 <ehird> [Existence quietly takes itself out the back and shoots itself in the head. All things are over. Everyone loses.]
13:56:41 <oerjan> All points are lost. Fortunately.
13:56:46 <ehird> [The sublime superliminal energy of the points absorbs itself and tries an odd contortionist position that's all the rage known as the Big Bang. Some rag-tag hooligan universe gets all started and excited and only lasts some billions of years.]
13:56:59 <ehird> [oerjan's statement notwithstands, due to being said not in brackets by a man who does not exist.]
13:57:26 <oerjan> It was true. From a point of view.
13:57:38 <ehird> ...and that, kids, is the worst creation myth ever dreamt of.
13:58:56 <ehird> Pretty fun though.
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15:32:19 <ehird> Distributed hashtable + ants = ants?
15:32:49 <oerjan> well i suppose if the ants ate the hashtable...
15:33:02 <ehird> No. NO EATING ALLOWED
15:34:34 <ehird> Distributed hashtable + HYPOTHETICALLY NON-EATING ants = ants?
15:34:41 <oerjan> they're very good at distributing
15:34:55 <oerjan> or perhaps rather UN-distributing
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15:42:09 <ehird> HO)W DEAD ARE yo§±
15:45:47 <ehird> oerjan: why does anyone wants to distribute united nations?
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15:46:17 <oerjan> well they are still missing a few parts
15:46:57 <ehird> THE VATICAN CITY AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
15:47:01 <ehird> where the trees are birdses.
15:47:30 <ehird> fascistinating, more like. like.
15:49:33 <ehird> SO MUCH FUNU TO BE HAD WHEN YOU'RE IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN THE VATICAN CIIIIIIIIIIIIITYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
15:49:43 <ehird> *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN my v key is broken?
15:49:50 <ehird> so THAT'S why I keep getting stuck at v in finger frenzy!
15:50:19 <ehird> fg ggfgggggggggggggggggggggggggg9gggggge bbcccb
15:50:42 <oerjan> ehird, sometimes a bit heavy on the fun
15:50:56 <ehird> totally heavy fun extreme sports 2
15:51:15 <ehird> "HARDCORING UP YOUR STREET, MEET "
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15:54:27 <ehird> i maxed out a poodle and then it exploded
15:55:06 <ais523> wow, you lot invented an entire economy while I was afk?
15:55:43 <ehird> And made it responsible for the creation of our universe
15:55:45 <ehird> You know... the usual
15:55:56 * ais523 exchanges one of ehird's points for 5 mackerel
15:56:06 <ehird> Sorry, no can do; the points are all gone.
15:56:23 <ais523> I don't see why we can't have negative points
15:56:49 <ehird> ais523: "[The sublime superliminal energy of the points absorbs itself and tries an odd contortionist position that's all the rage known as the Big Bang. Some rag-tag hooligan universe gets all started and excited and only lasts some billions of years.]"
15:57:13 <ehird> Technically you COULD exchange them, but only if you had a way of ripping apart the 1-dimensional fabric of the universe.
15:57:41 <ehird> Also, a point is worth something like a billion trajillion mackerel.
15:57:52 <ehird> Except when considering paint; it's worth 0.5 mackerel or so then.
15:58:15 <oerjan> yeah that would take a large collider or something, to crack hadrons into points
15:58:27 <ais523> 5 points to a mackerel, it's a fundamental rule of at least two universes, one of which no longer exists and the other of which has not yet come into being
15:58:31 <oerjan> would completely unravel the universe, of course
15:58:44 <ehird> Erm, the reverse, ais523
15:58:48 <ehird> 1 point to 5 mackerel, no?
15:59:03 <ehird> oerjan: You can convert sexlua energy into points?
15:59:29 <ehird> Yes, well, our points are super points.
15:59:29 <ehird> And we can paint them!
16:00:43 <ehird> No! YOU ARE ALL UNCANONICAL, DAMMIT!
16:01:46 <ehird> UNCANONICAL RABBITS
16:01:52 <oerjan> loose canons, everyone
16:02:33 <ehird> Loose rabikts kdsf
16:02:40 <ehird> I am not sleep-deprived, incidentally.
16:04:47 <ehird> I AM ALWAYS DEPRIVED OF SCENT
16:04:58 <ehird> i burst my keyboard typing that last sentence. who knew it was full of water.
16:05:14 <ais523> ehird: your keyboard was full of water?
16:05:25 <ais523> also, really what is up with you and keyboards?
16:05:25 <ehird> Toooooooooootally. And a thousand pins.
16:05:29 <oerjan> it's one of those fancy inflatable ones, clearly
16:05:36 <ehird> I am bleeding! I am made of gel, or so I hear.
16:06:00 <ais523> actually, a water-filled keyboard isn't utterly implausible
16:06:03 <ehird> I jumped out the window about a millisecond ago; any tips for preparation in my new, post-self-defenestration life?
16:06:15 <ehird> Ooh, I feel a lot of that "pain" thing. This is fun!
16:06:51 <ais523> one of my colleagues was rubber-ducking at me and came over to look at the channel just then
16:06:58 <oerjan> ehird: i suggest getting one of those self-preservation instincts
16:07:00 <ais523> I said we were discussing keyboards
16:07:19 <ehird> oerjan: are they expensive?
16:07:31 <ehird> ais523: I don't assume they bought it...
16:07:45 <ehird> I RUIN EVERYTHING :D
16:08:00 <ais523> meh, he's embarassed anyway because I laugh at him when he sings
16:08:01 <ehird> Oh god, there's a finger frenzy 2.
16:08:09 <oerjan> ehird: only if you get it from experience
16:08:12 <ehird> Normally I laugh at unfunny things
16:08:55 <ehird> ais523: I was just commenting on "because it's funny"
16:09:09 <oerjan> `define rubber-ducking
16:09:22 <ais523> oerjan: describing a problem to someone who doesn't understand it
16:09:33 <ais523> in the hope that you'll realise what the solution is as a result
16:09:47 <ais523> after a while, it was realised that the second person isn't actually necessary
16:09:50 <ehird> It's called rubber-ducking because you can do it without annoying other people.
16:09:52 <ais523> so they replaced it with a rubbr duck
16:09:58 <ehird> Has your colleague realised this? :P
16:10:23 * ais523 wonders when it'll be generally realised that the rubber duck isn't necessary either
16:10:47 <ehird> the mental hospital will fill up with programmers
16:10:50 <oerjan> ais523: not true, it is important to have focus points :D
16:12:23 <ehird> ~ the science of goats !
16:12:27 <ehird> ~ the science of goats ~
16:12:30 <ehird> the science of getting your headings wrong
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17:37:12 <ehird> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa2xl/apple_lisa_screenshot.gif ;; what was up with the Lisa's funny "w"?
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17:45:27 <ehird> a lot of patience you have there groonrix
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17:46:55 <ehird> well someone needs ADHD meds...
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17:47:36 <groonrix> I've heard that it is possible to use EgoBot in order to translate text into Brainfuck printing sequence
17:47:41 <groonrix> Any idea how should I do that?
17:47:48 <EgoBot> 20 ++[>+++++>>><<<<-]>. [17]
17:47:52 <ehird> !bf_txtgen holy butt festival; festival of butts
17:47:54 <EgoBot> 397 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>-.+++++++.---.>+.>++.<<<-------.>>----.<++++++++.>-.>.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-.<-.+.-----------.<++.<-.>----------.-------------------------------------------------.---------------------------.>>+.-.++++++++++++++.+.<.>++.<<<.>>+++.<.>+++.<<+++++.>.<----.>>>-.<+++++.>-.-.<<----------------------. [894]
17:48:02 <ehird> [17:47] ehird: !bf_txtgen
17:48:02 <ehird> [17:47] EgoBot: 20 ++[>+++++>>><<<<-]>. [17]
17:48:05 <ehird> that's some efficient printing
17:48:12 <ehird> well technically it's printing a newline
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17:57:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> i burst my keyboard typing that last sentence. who knew it was full of water. <-- wth
17:57:47 <ehird> jelly! whole piles of jelly! stuck to my ceiling!
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18:48:20 <ehird> making a 4x3 font sure is hard
18:50:08 <ehird> especially lowercase i
18:50:13 <ehird> i think doing italics first would be easier...
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20:19:08 <AnMaster> FireFly, possibly, but that seems odd
20:19:30 <FireFly> Indeed, but I'm used to seeing dimensions as width times height..
20:20:13 <FireFly> I once made a quite neat 3x5 font
20:20:28 * AnMaster wonders how many possible 4x3 patterns there are
20:20:59 <AnMaster> well, easy enough to calculate it. First reduce it to a single line, then caclulate possible permutations. I think.
20:21:21 <AnMaster> (reduce to single line would mean "caclulate 4*3")
20:21:31 <Asztal> it depends if it's black and white or not
20:21:43 <Asztal> I've seen a nice anti-aliased font of around that size
20:21:44 <AnMaster> Asztal, I assumed 2 colours only
20:22:13 <AnMaster> Asztal, I can't imagine how you can represent something like ä in it
20:22:35 <FireFly> Who needs internationalization?
20:22:59 <AnMaster> FireFly, I guess you never write in Swedish. Ever. ;P
20:23:51 <FireFly> But, I think it depends on what you want to use the font for
20:24:03 <AnMaster> FireFly, well I can't think of any use for such a small font
20:24:14 <FireFly> I mean, if you just need a small font for diplaying highscore in a game, you only need 0-9
20:24:17 <AnMaster> mainly because even on ~90 dpi it is not readable
20:24:27 <Asztal> Imagine Chinese in a 4x3 font...
20:24:47 <fizzie> 3x5 is pretty nice if you allow one-pixel empty spaces between letters.
20:24:56 <FireFly> Black box followed by black box followed by black box, followed by black box...
20:24:59 <Guest76637> 4*3 = 4095 different 'characters', minus the fact that a bunch are just translations
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20:25:26 <fizzie> Nice arithmetics, "4*3 = 4095".
20:26:05 <fizzie> Why -1, though? It's not like the empty character couldn't well denote a Chinese character.
20:26:11 <fizzie> Well, as well as any of the single-pixel ones.
20:26:30 <iamcal> a single pixel is a period or aposthrophe, depending on position
20:26:35 <Asztal> with 8 shades for each pixel, you could represent enough, though it might be _slightly_ hard to tell them apart...
20:26:40 <AnMaster> iamcal, what if it is in the middle?
20:26:52 <AnMaster> multiplication dot I would say.
20:27:09 <iamcal> http://www.iamcal.com/misc/fonts/
20:27:39 <AnMaster> iamcal, at native size for my screen I would be utterly unable to read those
20:28:16 <iamcal> then i have reached my goal!
20:28:19 <fizzie> If you're making a special-purpose 4x3 font, you don't have to make do with "empty is empty"; it's not like Chinese-the-language uses spaces between words.
20:28:57 <iamcal> pixel fonts are mostly a waste these days, with bigger screens
20:28:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't this basically a 2D barcode by now?
20:29:20 <fizzie> That rfk86 port I wrote uses a 4x6 font, with the rightmost column and bottom row empty for most glyphs; that's very readable as long as you can distinguish unique pixels.
20:29:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, TI-82 is extremely low DPI though
20:29:47 <AnMaster> if my TI-83+ is anything like it
20:30:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure how -82 is related, since I'm talking about the TI-86.
20:30:28 <fizzie> It's got a bit more pixels (128x64, vs. 96x64 in the 83+) but I guess pretty much the same DPI.
20:31:00 <fizzie> On the N900 3.5" 800x480 screen (266 DPI), you'd get a very unreadable 200x80-sized text mode with that 4x6 font; a single character would be a bit less than 0.4 mm times 0.6 mm.
20:32:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, also odd it has a larger screen
20:32:50 <AnMaster> it is supposed to be more primitive iirc?
20:33:31 <fizzie> That Debian-phone by Nokia.
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20:34:18 <fizzie> And I'm guessing 83+ inherited the 96x64 screen from the non-plus model, which was less capable than the 86.
20:35:47 <fizzie> (In fact primitiveness is still debatable; the 83+ has just 32K of RAM, while the 86 has 128K; it's just that on the 86 all programs have to be stored in the RAM, while the 83+ has that half-a-megabyte Flash for data storage.
20:38:56 <fizzie> s/$/)/, my punctuation stack is leaky.
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21:22:29 <ehird> 12:07:57 <FireFly> 4px wide?
21:22:33 <ehird> 12:19:33 <AnMaster> anyway 4x3 isn't readable
21:25:07 <ehird> 12:27:09 <iamcal> http://www.iamcal.com/misc/fonts/
21:25:27 <ehird> hmm, and now I must break my three-long chain of one-word responses
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you need a 4x3 font for?
21:26:01 <ehird> What do you need Befunge for?
21:26:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Blown up sufficiently and aspect-ratio-corrected, yes.
21:26:25 <ehird> (Designed for a non-square-pixel display.)
21:26:28 <ehird> (Imaginary, that is.)
21:26:30 <Deewiant> Bah, it's cheating if you blow it up.
21:26:39 <AnMaster> ehird, rephrasing... what made you make a 4x3 font?
21:26:46 <ehird> So what? It was readable at the original resolution of the... um... comput-o-tron!
21:26:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Why not?
21:26:59 <ehird> I like very small fonts.
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21:32:50 <fizzie> An actually readable 4x3 font (I mean, assuming no extra space between rows or anything) sounds like quite a thing indeed, but I guess I shouldn't go calling it impossible without seeing it.
21:33:04 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/font.png has the rfk86 font.
21:33:32 <fizzie> That's double the amount of pixels, though.
21:35:25 <ehird> I mean, it's readable on a low-PPI screen with non-square pixels.
21:35:33 <ehird> (So that 4x3 is square.)
21:35:33 <ehird> I mean, it will be.
21:35:37 <ehird> Once I've crafted the perfect letter forms.
21:35:50 <ehird> I think I'll make it italic; seems to be the best way to get the most readable shapes out of it.
21:37:28 <fizzie> Yes, well, do provide some block-of-text examples when it's done; I would think that with only three pixel rows, you'd have a problem with staying legible when the bottom pixels of row 1 are directly adjacent to the top pixels of row 2.
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21:37:48 <ehird> Well, obviously I'll have spacing.
21:37:59 <ehird> I'm idiotic, but I'm not stupid.
21:38:35 <ehird> I wonder if there's a way to render a more italics-like.
21:38:46 <ehird> is what I have now
21:40:27 <ehird> Bah, I'm downloading an imagery-software designed for pixel-poushing.
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21:47:31 <ehird> fizzie: Admittedly it's not easy.
21:52:34 <ehird> 3x4, on the other hand, is almost criminally easy...
21:54:58 <fizzie> Not counting the spacing in the character cell dimensions is also cheating, you know. (Or alternatively a matter of definition. But no, cheating!)
21:55:31 <ehird> Ooh, making the j be friends with the i is hard.
21:55:45 <ehird> (Well, not really.)
21:56:21 <ehird> fizzie: What if some of my letterforms are smaller than others?
21:56:21 <ehird> Is that acceptable? :P
21:58:08 <ehird> Oh geez, "m" is gonna be hard for 3x4.
21:58:55 <pikhq> Make sure to do it like this: http://typophile.com/node/61920 ;)
22:00:18 <ehird> Old; I linked it in here days ago.
22:00:34 <ehird> But it's not really 3 x-pixels, since the colour is vital.
22:00:43 <pikhq> Yeah, that's where I first saw it.
22:00:47 <pikhq> Still rather awesome.
22:00:56 <ehird> More fun than the actual font, incidentally, is StoneCypher's posts. He needs to be put in a nice, fluffy building with people in white coats.
22:01:34 <ehird> Especially the part where he claims that one of the people who REALLY pioneered this stuff broke his hand by punching a brick wall because of miha's evil thread title. (I'm not joking)
22:02:18 <ehird> Gah, all my attempts at 3x4 "m"s look like small-caps Ts.
22:03:22 <Deewiant> I can only imagine things that look like Hs
22:04:02 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Make sure to do it like this: http://typophile.com/node/61920 ;) <-- that hurts to read. Really
22:04:13 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it doesn't.
22:04:30 <ehird> Yes, but your eyes are broken.
22:04:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Remember that lowercase letters should generally forego the top letter :-P
22:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Your screen sucks; yes there is colour bleed, no it does not hurt the eye
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22:05:01 <ehird> (What's that? Exaggeration? Gasp)
22:05:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Erm, yes
22:05:15 <ehird> Deewiant: (Lowercase lines should generally forego the top letter?)
22:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, all colour bleed hurts badly IMO. Guess why even on my laptop I hate subpixel stuff
22:05:35 <Deewiant> ehird: No. /etter /, not /etter/.
22:06:04 <Deewiant> I don't know why I even bother doing these things correctly since everybody reads it wrong anyways :-P
22:06:28 <pikhq> AnMaster, I suspect you've just not seen any even vaguely decent subpixel rendering. Believe me, text without antialiasing really, really, *really* hurts to read.
22:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Either you have the non-existent condition colourbleedipainfultis, your screens are jaw-droppingly terrible, or you're exaggerating
22:06:45 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, he barfs even at OS X's.
22:06:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes indeed. Which is why I use non-subpixel antialias
22:07:02 <pikhq> ehird: Wow. OS X does font rendering very, very well.
22:07:03 <ehird> pikhq: He uses full-hinted greyscale antialiasing, which is basically like gently hovering pencil above a paper.
22:07:12 <ehird> And then erasing it a few times.
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22:07:21 <ehird> Gives you a result about half as wispy as the text rendering.
22:07:28 <AnMaster> ehird, turned off for small sizes
22:07:48 <ehird> What? Antialiasing makes vector fonts READABLE at small sizes.
22:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird, at small sizes I tend to use bitmap fonts anyway
22:08:19 <ehird> And never consume others' content, right.
22:08:36 <ehird> pikhq: Hey now, bitmap Helvetica at 12px is a damn fine sharp font.
22:08:44 <ehird> But properly subpixelled text is better, of course.
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22:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes bitmap Helvetica is awesome indeed.
22:09:35 <pikhq> ehird: Well, yeah. It's kinda hard to screw up Helvetica.
22:10:00 <AnMaster> oh actually it was 6 and below AA was turned off for.
22:10:25 <ehird> Why are you even using such small font sizes?
22:10:50 <AnMaster> ehird, then it is completely irrelevant yes
22:12:16 <ehird> SUDDENLY, HYPER-ADVANCED DIMENSIONAL VORTEX BEING
22:13:50 <AnMaster> fully hinted greyscale AA is 1) readable 2) doesn't hurt my eyes due to colour bleed
22:15:37 <fizzie> Well, for the record (and I've said it before too) I do greyscale-only antialiased fonts too, because one of my screens has that 90 degree rotation, and I haven't managed to get Xinerama to provide different subpixel orders (rgb and vertical-rgb) for different screens, and anyway it's pretty ugly for the vertical-rgb screen.
22:16:43 <ehird> I'd say that THE MAGICAL OS X could do that, but it probably can't. I'm not even sure how I'd go about setting up a rotated display.
22:17:15 <fizzie> It probably applies some sort of patch to physically rotate the subpixels back; it's that clever.
22:17:37 <ehird> Just plug it in, RRRRRRRRRRRRRIP, your display is all rotated.
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22:54:23 <ehird> I don't suppose anyone has a Mac Classic ROM just, you know, lying around?
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23:09:09 <ehird> Because that would be sweet.
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00:44:52 <ehird> You know, I can install System 6 from scratch and boot into it in the time it takes Windows XP to boot up...
01:12:53 <augur> ive decided that La jetée is the film equivalent of an esolang.
01:16:21 <ehird> i've decided that adobe reader isn't bloated, if by adobe reader you mean acrobat reader 1 on macintosh system 6.
01:16:29 <ehird> we're, like, soulmates, like.
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01:57:01 <ehird> http://www.retards.org/projects/grackle68k/ twitter for system 6!
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02:22:13 <Warrigal> Yay, it's the rarely-seen other third-person singular present form of "to be".
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07:04:29 <augur> ive learned to play part of philip glass's metamorphosis 1
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07:12:08 <Gregor> augur: If you've learned part, you've learned the whole thing.
07:12:53 <augur> i just have to learn how the pieces are put together
07:13:07 <augur> its a lot of repetition, but then theres structure to the repetition
07:13:37 <augur> individual musical phrases repeat a lot, but not simply over and over
07:13:54 <Gregor> Eggzactly. It's the complex interweaving of the phrases that makes it ... well, Glass.
07:14:15 <augur> also, i discovered on my own the very beginning to the star trek theme
07:14:26 <Gregor> Which Star Trek theme?
07:14:58 <Gregor> Well, I'm going to go discover my bed.
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12:09:00 <ehird> 23:13:54 <Gregor> Eggzactly. It's the complex interweaving of the phrases that makes it ... well, Glass.
12:09:06 <ehird> from where i come from it's the sand that makes it glass.
12:09:38 <ehird> Meanwhile: landline GET
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13:03:22 <ehird> begin 644 spongy.com
13:03:22 <ehird> ML!/-$&@`H`>ZR`/N0N[N[D!U]??C0`'X]W05N7\`*<I@L02^^/_?1/K>=/C9
13:03:23 <ehird> M^]X(@/,"V<G>"'4$V>")!-[!K8L`WQCBW;4!,>V^^/^M]^,#1/7WX9($*SQ5
13:03:23 <ehird> F@]T`>PL)]GKJ:\D#<>#K!?[#==A+D\'H`JIA1W6;1>1@_LAUE,,`
13:11:04 <ehird> "You can get BE broadband on 01661833939
13:11:04 <ehird> It's probably going to be this fast:
13:11:05 <ehird> Thanks, ISP website
13:11:21 <ehird> It's going to be (null) megabits fast!
13:38:07 <ehird> hmm that's a phone number innit
13:38:43 <ehird> ooh, "833939" is nicely patternonic
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13:57:59 <ehird> Nokia lost 559 M€ following a profit of 1.09 G€.
13:58:16 <ehird> (Yes, I just used SI prefixes on currency. Bite me.)
14:03:32 * ehird decides that 1440x900 is an okay screenshots res; glanced at some screenshots of that size and you don't seem to be able to fit any less work on the screen at once (obviously there's more raw pixels)
14:04:33 <ehird> vertically at least; those 150 pixels don't seem to help much. losing 240 horizontal pixels is a bit of an ouch
14:08:32 <fizzie> Yes, they must not be overly happy with the NSN thing.
14:14:43 <ehird> "gigaeuro" sounds so awesome.
14:16:48 <ehird> "One gigayen is almost equal to five hundred and seven megarupees."
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15:46:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> ooh, "833939" is nicely patternonic <-- "patternonic"?
15:46:45 <ehird> pattonic would be a patt
15:46:48 <ehird> work it out yourself
15:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, eh.... "pattonic" or "patternonic"?
15:47:12 <AnMaster> please decide on a spelling first
15:47:20 <ehird> you fail at reading comprehension kthxbai
15:47:46 <AnMaster> Definitions of patt on the Web:
15:47:46 <AnMaster> * The Trentino Tyrolean Autonomist Party (Partito Autonomista Trentino Tirolese, PATT) is a regionalist christian-democratic Italian political party based in Trentino.
15:47:46 <AnMaster> * Yale Nance Patt is an American professor of electrical and computer engineering at The University of Texas at Austin. ...
15:48:00 <ehird> you continue to fail to stop failing
15:48:04 <AnMaster> I guess it is related to patterns in some way though
15:50:34 <ehird> ais523: has anything happened in agora since "OFF: [IADoP] Interstellar Manifest", 12 october?
15:50:36 <ehird> anything noteworthy that is
15:51:11 <ehird> a lot of messages that i haven't read
15:51:25 <ais523> loads of NoVs against BobTHJ, most of which were invalid due to typos
15:51:43 <ais523> and loads of other general judicial stuff
15:51:48 <ais523> also a large proposal distribution
15:51:56 <ehird> hmph, have they still not got those novs done?
15:52:06 <ais523> it's felt strongly judicial, though
15:52:10 <ais523> not a lot happening except in the courts
15:52:21 <ehird> then i should have no problem marking all as read.
15:52:48 <ais523> you probably want to vote on the proposal distribution
15:53:02 <ehird> I haven't done that in a while
15:54:19 <ehird> also, can i take this opportunity to say that macintosh system 6 was cool?
16:06:00 <ehird> even acrobat reader 1 was cool on system 6.
16:06:07 <ehird> flies even emulating at 1x speed
16:06:15 <ehird> (admittedly with a faster drive backing it)
16:06:48 <AnMaster> and where did you get the system image from
16:06:52 <ehird> Mini vMac. It has no networking, though, and Basilisk II won't accept the ROM. :(
16:06:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Illegally.
16:07:14 <ehird> The Mini vMac build emulates a Macintosh Plus with 4 MiB of RAM.
16:07:27 <ehird> (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:jPO_WD1H2kYJ:rolli.ch/MacPlus/+mac+plus+rom&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari has the link to the ROM.)
16:07:41 <ehird> Oh, and Mini vMac doesn't support colour.
16:07:46 <ehird> Or resolutions other than the tiny one on actual Macs.
16:08:04 <ehird> So it's good for nostalgia, but you can't go "wow, this thing was really powerful and snappy".
16:08:16 <ehird> I don't have any nostal to gia, but it's fun nonetheless.
16:08:33 <ehird> Oh, and getting files onto it is a pain; iirc OS X can read and write HFS, but I haven't tried it (not sure how to go about making a disk image).
16:09:26 <ehird> AnMaster: If you do want to play around with it: http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/system_6_heaven.html
16:09:36 <ehird> Very useful resource, including a whole shitload of software.
16:10:17 <ehird> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/screens/Swedish.gif Mönster?! What monster?
16:11:00 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:13:46 <ehird> Those stinking hobbitses at System 7 Today are so evil!
16:13:59 <ehird> MASTERS OF BLOAT AND DESTRUCTION RAAAAAAAARGH
16:25:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you won't believe this - Macintosh System Software 1.1 can run at 800x600
16:25:49 <ehird> this is the OS for a machine that only had one single hardware differentiation: 128 or 512 kibibytes of RAM
16:25:58 <ehird> and it runs at 800x600 without a hitch
16:28:30 -!- boily has joined.
16:28:31 <ehird> Runs MacPaint too.
16:30:32 <ais523> `wolfram the least number not nameable in less than eleven words
16:31:24 <ais523> the computer here that's having all sorts of problems is now turning on every now and hten
16:31:29 <ais523> then turning back off again
16:31:53 <ais523> (it's intermittently booting to a blank screen with a mouse pointer in Win7)
16:32:06 <ais523> (also, it crashes whenever the screensaver would turn on, even though the screensaver is turned off)
16:32:40 <ais523> (and by crashes, I mean spins the fan at full speed for about a minute with a blank screen, then turns off)
16:34:09 * ehird drags a floppy into another floppy to see what'd happeen
16:34:14 <ehird> (Nothing, silent failure)
16:36:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:41:14 <ehird> I'm ever so slightly tempted to acquire the highest-spec mac that can run System 6 (w/ colour display), trick it out with the most-addressable 8MiB of RAM, the most-addressable 2GiB disk, and a broadband connection, just so I can go on IRC and have an honest version string saying "WhateverIRC - Macintosh System 6.0.8, 8192 KB"
16:42:18 <ehird> (There's even some progress on a System 6 web browser... (although a few already exist))
16:47:08 <ehird> IIfx seems to be the fastest 6-faring machine.
16:47:41 <ehird> Supported up to 128MiB of RAM, which is rather pointless when you can only address 8.
16:47:55 <ais523> aargh, my computer just spun up its fan again
16:48:08 <ais523> at least, the power light isn't on, nor are any of the others
16:48:12 <ais523> although there's a red LED inside it that's lit
16:49:34 <ehird> And the IIci was the second-fastest.
16:50:04 <ehird> The IIci will probably be a *lot* easier to acquire, as the IIfx cost from $9,000 to $12,000 — in 1990-1992 dollars.
16:50:21 <ehird> Plus a lot of the additional features required special software support to take advantage of them.
16:50:37 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
16:52:06 <ehird> Still, 40 MHz instead of 25... those fancy ASICs and coprocessors... an FPU... higher speed RAM with simultaneous read and write...
16:52:35 <ehird> It is rather tempting. But the IIci is really common and the IIfx isn't, so.
16:53:26 <ehird> ais523: have you considered that it may be a ghost
16:54:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:54:59 <zzo38> I have found this error message occuring in a Microsoft product: "rDrebTenrsr nc RRdnrTSb SncrrebdRRdncsretrepscdogtia inte F t"
16:55:14 <ais523> that's quite an error message
16:55:55 <zzo38> To reproduce: Type in (using newlines in place of \): TYPE A\A AS INTEGER\END TYPE\DIM B.B AS A
16:55:57 <ais523> the desktop here is turning itself on for about a second every now and then for no obvious reason
16:56:05 <ais523> zzo38: in which program?
16:56:07 <zzo38> And it will appear this message.
16:56:17 <zzo38> QuickBasic Extended
16:56:26 <ais523> are you sure that isn't a corrupted copy?
16:56:38 <ais523> it looks a bit like corruption, although not that much
16:56:40 <ais523> because it's all letters
16:56:46 <ehird> Looks like interleaving messages.
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17:00:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: you won't believe this - Macintosh System Software 1.1 can run at 800x600 <-- why wouldn't I believe it?
17:01:05 <ehird> because it was 1984, and macintoshes only ran at one resolution for many, many years after that?
17:01:11 <ais523> 800x600 was a pretty large screen res back then
17:01:17 <ais523> 1984 is before I was born
17:01:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/screens/Swedish.gif Mönster?! What monster?
17:01:27 <ehird> ais523: more to the point, you couldn't plug an external monitor into macs for ages
17:01:29 <ais523> and 640x480 with as many as 16 colours was good when I was young
17:01:32 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a joke. hah a.
17:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see anything funny in it
17:01:58 <ehird> ais523: so it's shocking that the second release (almost identical to system 1) supported 800x600
17:02:20 <ais523> futureproofing, I suppose
17:02:27 <ehird> since it was, like, 1990 when the first mac went on sale that let you plug in your own monitor, thus ending the era of 512x342
17:02:48 <ehird> ais523: but the macs that let you plug in your own monitor don't support system software 1.1! :-P
17:03:03 <ais523> and the computer just turned on again
17:03:07 <ais523> I wonder if there's a pattern here?
17:03:08 <ehird> 512x342 is a pretty good resolution
17:03:09 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe they planned that feature earlier on?
17:03:15 <ais523> I should record it in IRC so I can look back at the timestamps later
17:03:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm about 90% sure they didn't
17:03:34 <ehird> Anyway, obviously the emulator has to do hackery to get it to run
17:03:37 <ehird> So I doubt they coded actual support for it
17:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, can't it go above 800x600?
17:03:45 <ehird> But the fact that they didn't hardcode it and make it break is amazing
17:03:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Basilisk II can, but I don't think it supports system 1
17:04:00 <ehird> at least with the gui
17:04:10 <zzo38> It isn't very often I found some guy who knows how to program in Forth, but yesterday I met a retired computer sciences teacher and I asked him if he knew Forth, and he does
17:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, about basilisk II... getting a rom from a newworld doesn't work sadly.
17:04:50 <AnMaster> what with openfirmware instead
17:05:06 <ehird> Piracy. It's easy to get a Quadra rom; they're all over the plalce.
17:05:33 <zzo38> Now, where is the guy who wrote rawirc.c
17:05:54 <ehird> Anyway, people who bought the (roughly $5k in today's dollars) original Macintosh were totally fucked by Apple: three years later, 3.2 was released, which didn't support it.
17:05:55 <AnMaster> anyway, the harddrive in that old mac is so fscking loud that I hate to turn it on when I become nostalgic
17:06:14 <ehird> (And the same year as the original one the came out the 512K one did too...)
17:06:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Just use a floppy-based system
17:06:46 <ehird> Install the OS to a floppy, boot from it, install other programs onto other floppies
17:06:55 <ehird> iBooks can't even run system 6!
17:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and it runs OS 9 in fact.
17:07:14 <AnMaster> which, while snappy, isn't very stable
17:07:24 <ehird> OS 9 is not snappy compared to OS 8
17:07:39 <AnMaster> in an emulator I bet it wouldn't be
17:07:42 <ehird> which is not snappy compared to 7, which is REALLY not snappy compared to 6
17:07:49 <ehird> ...but 6 is about the speed of the others.
17:08:06 <ehird> AnMaster: probably they optimised 9 for the iBook.
17:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, imacs came with it too
17:08:27 <ehird> wrt noise, the original Macintosh was cool; only moving part was the floppy drive
17:08:30 <AnMaster> oh and... running MS DOS 6.2 on a modern computer would be incredibly snappy too
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17:08:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The iBook shipped with 8.5, I belieeive.
17:08:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:09:03 <ehird> And yes, but 8 can do all that 9 can.
17:09:19 <ehird> And 7 can do just about all that 8 can apart from web browsing well (IE 4 / NN 4 max).
17:09:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did, but I got some "you got this so late that we will offer free upgrade to OS 9" kind of thing
17:09:28 <AnMaster> like, a week before OS 9 release or something
17:09:31 <ehird> And 6 can do all the bits of 7 that matter.
17:09:44 <ehird> And -1 can liberate you from the anti-zen of computers!
17:10:35 <ehird> Pre-6 had no multitasking, though/
17:10:43 <ehird> And in 6 you had to change a setting to get multitasking.
17:11:01 <ehird> (Set it to start up with Multifinder instead of Finder.)
17:11:11 <AnMaster> didn't macs support networking booting? Possibly some custom protocol
17:11:21 <AnMaster> but pretty certain I seen an option on the ibook for that somewhere
17:11:32 <AnMaster> to boot from an appleshare server or something
17:11:55 <AnMaster> possibly one could use this to get around the disk noise issue.
17:12:13 <ehird> Why not just plug in a USB stick?
17:12:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: i declare today's mezzacotta comic sufficiently insane
17:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it can't boot from that. I tried.
17:12:21 <ehird> Admittedly I'm not sure it could boot from that, but worth a try.
17:12:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes it could, via a system extension.
17:12:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, don't read that one.
17:13:00 <ehird> Sure. They run within MacOS, so just use the USB routines, set it up, and boot.
17:13:18 <AnMaster> this feels like loadlin somehow
17:13:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:13:39 <oerjan> it's the autogenerated one. mostly crap. today it felt even a bit more surreal than usual.
17:13:45 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
17:13:57 <ais523> I haven't read mezzacotta for ages
17:14:05 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it's the autogenerated one. mostly crap. today it felt even a bit more surreal than usual. <-- the I know about the first two statements...
17:15:31 <ehird> they should do an archive binge of mezzacotta
17:16:26 <oerjan> hasn't generated a hall of fame comic for weeks, but that's mainly because there aren't 50 voting readers any more, i think
17:19:31 <ais523> computer just spun up again
17:21:47 <oerjan> ais523: i think it had the fatal flaw (apart from being 99% crap) that it needed many voters to get anything interesting up, and once it fell below a threshold (happened about new year i think) it was doomed to a slow death
17:22:44 <ehird> they should discontinue the comic and just do the other fun stuff
17:23:10 <ehird> keep the hall of fame ones though
17:23:31 <oerjan> heck DMM essentially keeps complaining he doesn't have time for what they have
17:23:36 <ais523> most of the hall-of-fames were pretty rubbish, too
17:24:11 <ehird> just nuke the whole thing then
17:24:37 <ais523> most of them aren't funny, just metahumorous
17:24:53 <AnMaster> ehird, after you archive the whole current history that is
17:25:11 <ehird> No; over 99% of that is crap, and there are hundreds of trillions of comics.
17:25:20 <ehird> They're not actually, you know, stored on disk, anyway.
17:25:35 <ais523> actually, I was wondering if only comics that had ever been seen stayed the same
17:25:39 <ehird> (I'm absolutely sure about the over 99% thing)
17:25:49 <ais523> so that new comics can be added in the entries that have never been seen
17:25:54 <ais523> as well as in the daily updates
17:26:11 <ehird> I am almost totally sure that they just use the date as a random seed.
17:26:16 <oerjan> ais523: i have had a feeling that new characters appear sometimes...
17:26:36 <ehird> oerjan: Almost certainly conditioned for >day_we_introduced
17:26:36 <oerjan> ehird: yes, but they cache those that have been visited
17:27:04 <ais523> after all, it's not like they're storing images
17:27:08 <ais523> they're just a few lines of SVG
17:27:18 <ais523> and, they might even just store the generation algo + seed
17:28:05 <oerjan> ais523: erm that wouldn't give any speedup, which is why they started caching
17:28:18 <ais523> the caching would be so you could write new comics
17:28:25 <ais523> in the gaps between the ones which people had looked at
17:28:33 <ais523> say if you have a new character, or an improved generation algo
17:28:46 <ehird> I highly doubt that happens
17:29:03 <ehird> I'm fairly sure they'll only ever make future comics change
17:29:23 <ais523> but then the new characters would take months to show up
17:29:26 <ais523> and nobody would be looking
17:29:32 <ais523> besides, people mostly only look at the past ones anyway
17:30:30 <ehird> Yes, but it'd mean that some characters around read areas would be mysteriously rare.
17:30:33 <ehird> And mysteriously common in other places.
17:30:35 <oerjan> you cannot look at future ones
17:34:50 <ais523> computer turned on again
17:35:45 <ais523> 17:34, 17:19, 17:03, 16:49
17:35:50 <ais523> seems to be about once every 15 minutes
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17:45:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> They're not actually, you know, stored on disk, anyway. <-- yeah, I was, you know, joking
17:45:41 <ehird> Right, well, it wasn't funny. At least mönster was a pun
17:47:26 <ais523> the desktop here in my office
17:47:37 <ais523> and I'm writing on my laptop
17:47:39 <AnMaster> ehird, puns are no more inherently funny than other jokes
17:47:51 <ehird> you continue your failure of reading comprehension
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17:48:07 <AnMaster> ehird, no, you were vague then
17:48:20 <ais523> is mezzacotta excluded in robots.txt?
17:48:26 <ais523> or does it stay there as a trap for spiders?
17:48:29 <AnMaster> so vague I have no clue what you think I misread.
17:48:44 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc archive is blocked
17:48:50 <ais523> ugh, http://mezzacotta.net/robots.txt is boring
17:49:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes the raindrops do make a pretty pattern on the window
17:49:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, against the far away street light
17:50:26 <oerjan> a pitter-patter pattern
18:02:00 * AnMaster wonders if ehird ever watches the BBC Proms
18:02:19 * ehird wonders to what that is apropos.
18:02:37 * oerjan used to watch the proms when he watched tv
18:02:44 <ehird> Sentient colour technology!
18:03:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wished it wasn't such a short cut version sent on Swedish television... :( It reminds me of "highlights of hamlet" ;P
18:03:48 <ehird> But the answer is no.
18:04:53 <oerjan> well it was just the last night back then, wp tells me it's actually really 8 weeks of concerts
18:04:55 <AnMaster> oh? I thought you would at least like the last night of the proms... Even if not the other proms
18:05:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait what, you didn't know?
18:05:40 <AnMaster> After all it is called "last night of the proms" the one commonly broadcast outside UK
18:05:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I've never seen it, so I wouldn't know.
18:05:55 <oerjan> not how much the rest was, though
18:05:57 <ehird> I've never really watched much TV.
18:06:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes! I don't even like crumpets.
18:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc they come in many variations?
18:06:51 <ehird> Crumpet generally refers to one thing.
18:06:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's like how people never visit the tourist attractions of their own city
18:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well the one I have seen I quite liked. Was years ago though.
18:07:20 <ehird> To be honest Britain doesn't really have any culture these days.
18:07:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm. You are saying that is all it is?
18:07:56 <fizzie> Ho-hum; I wrote (well, wrote a Perl script which wrote) http://zem.fi/rfk86/ with the Unicode line-drawing characters, and it looked just right at work; but on this OS X system, the layout's gone all wonky, since "monospace" doesn't really seem to mean monospace here.
18:08:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: heck if i know
18:08:16 <ehird> fizzie: "monospace" doesn't mean monospaced on Linux, either.
18:08:26 <ehird> Sometimes the most common characters are monospaced.
18:08:33 <ehird> Less ccommon ones rarely are.
18:08:42 <ehird> fizzie: May I suggest using Monaco on OS X?
18:08:49 <ehird> It might have the right characters.
18:09:05 <ehird> For extra points, 10pt Monaco; lovely crisp unantialiased funtime.
18:09:13 <Deewiant> ehird: ccccccccccccccccccccccommon
18:09:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Still using that Zero? :P
18:09:46 <Deewiant> You already asked me about the browns, didn't you :-P
18:09:55 <ehird> http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html looks wonky, also.
18:10:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Ha ha joke funny laugh get it?
18:10:23 <ehird> You stuttered keys.
18:10:35 <ehird> fizzie: btw the "a" in that font is supremely uglies!
18:10:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: "monospace" doesn't mean monospaced on Linux, either. <-- it looks right to me though
18:10:53 <Deewiant> I thought you were just trying to say that I can't complain because my Zero sucks more :-P
18:11:01 <ais523> argh desktop computer stop that!
18:11:05 * ais523 is tempted to disconnect the power
18:11:07 <AnMaster> but why the pulsing edge (well, static)
18:11:32 <AnMaster> as in, the horizontal lines are brighter at regular intervals
18:11:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Just ask majestouch; the Zeros are flawless!
18:11:33 <AnMaster> ╚═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╝
18:11:36 <ehird> Your antialiasing sucks.
18:11:43 <ehird> There is no fail by fizzie.
18:11:45 <oerjan> ais523: maybe it is trying to send some spam ;D
18:11:59 <fizzie> It looks right to me on the Ubuntu at work, and on this Debian at home; but it doesn't seem very robust. I guess I should just do a similar-looking thing with CSS boxery.
18:12:11 <ehird> fizzie: Monaco 10pt! Monaco 10pt!
18:12:14 <ehird> OR I'LL BREAK YOUR JOINT
18:12:24 <ehird> It rhymes, it must be true.
18:12:40 <ehird> Yes, but it looks fine on common X11s.
18:12:45 <ehird> And who cares about Windows?
18:12:52 <ehird> So, ON OS X, MONACO 10pt! Joint! Point! Thing.
18:13:01 <AnMaster> and how can it look good on Linux?
18:13:11 <ehird> Monaco, whateverthereisno
18:13:30 <ehird> Display is fixed on OS X, continues to look fine on Linux unless you have crappy antialiasing in which case meh to you.
18:13:34 <ehird> Use DejaVu of course.
18:13:51 <ehird> 10.6's default monospaced font, Menlo, is a modified DejaVu Sans Mono...
18:14:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:14:50 <AnMaster> Dejavu Sans Mono, fall back on Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, fall back on Monaco?
18:16:06 <ehird> Macs often have DejaVu.
18:16:33 <ehird> You may need some hackery to do 10pt only on Macs, but the whole reason to use Monaco is because 10pt is unantialiased and all retro-like.
18:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why would 10 pt be non-antialiased?
18:18:40 <ehird> Because Monaco goes way back to the first version of OS X, so it was a hand-drawn bitmap.
18:18:45 <ehird> First version of MacOS.
18:18:50 <ehird> That is, it was in System Software 1.
18:19:04 <ehird> Of course, larger sizes are vector.
18:19:07 <ehird> Outline. Whatever.
18:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, why not create bitmap ones for larger ones too?
18:20:29 <ehird> Because OS X's text rendering looks nice.
18:20:33 <ehird> Bitmaps would be uglier.
18:20:45 <ehird> 10pt is a good size for Monaco to be crisp, though.
18:20:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not as an application?
18:23:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: It doesn't -- or if it does, it's not officially supported; they might've released some TI-made statistics tools in a special format. You could do a TI-BASIC start-up wrapper, but delivering "raw" assembly programs is the standard way on the 86.
18:23:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it have that "apps" button?
18:24:09 <fizzie> No. I'm not sure what it should do, either.
18:24:27 <fizzie> Programs are just program-type variables; there's a "PRGM" button to show a list of them.
18:24:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, TI-83+ specific then I guess
18:24:38 <AnMaster> and/or TI-83 and TI-84 I guess
18:24:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, basically they are stored in flash I think
18:25:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:25:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, the TI-86 doesn't have the Flash memory. (And neither does the TI-83.)
18:25:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can't usually access most data directly from the flash on TI-83+
18:26:06 <AnMaster> as in, you have to move it to ram first
18:26:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, so in practise you tend to leave most stuff in the battery backed ram
18:28:29 <ehird> 3x4 "v" is hard to distinguish from "u"...
18:29:14 <ehird> Oh, give the u a tail.
18:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you make it possible to distinguish U from ∐ and ∪?
18:31:07 <fizzie> I don't suppose they've made a widespread font-embedding standard? I could use that 4x6 font I use in the actual game for the website. (Quick wikipediaing -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_embedding_on_the_Web#Web_fonts -- doesn't look very promising.)
18:31:18 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:31:21 <ehird> fizzie: They're working on it now with @font-face.
18:31:27 <ehird> Just use <img> and alt text
18:31:31 <ehird> Who cares if it's a pain!
18:31:40 <ehird> write some javascript to replace each char with an image
18:31:55 <ehird> That way it will look okay on non-imaging browsers.
18:32:00 <ehird> I think lynx does [alt text] instead of just alt text.
18:32:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> write some javascript to replace each char with an image <-- this sounds strangely familiar
18:32:12 <ehird> impomatic: [18:31] fizzie: I don't suppose they've made a widespread font-embedding standard? I could use that 4x6 font I use in the actual game for the website. (Quick wikipediaing -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_embedding_on_the_Web#Web_fonts -- doesn't look very promising.)
18:32:22 <ehird> AnMaster: sIFR does it with a string of text and Flash, but you only use it for titles and stuff.
18:32:35 <impomatic> Hmmm... I'm sure I've seen something in Flash that does that.
18:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't it scaled to 80% or some other sort of crap
18:34:23 <impomatic> I need to write a JavaScript for context highlighting code at some point
18:34:27 <ehird> Whee, lowercase letters done.
18:34:33 <ehird> Admittedly they'll be as high as the uppercase ones, but who cares?
18:35:01 <ehird> 3x4 IS SO readable, naysayers!
18:35:19 <fizzie> I'm still not counting that as 3x4 if you use spacing between.
18:35:36 <ehird> fizzie: But that's the standard, dude...
18:35:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3x3
18:35:45 <ehird> Each letter is 3x3, and you put a one pixel space after each letter
18:35:54 <ehird> It's 3x3, Wikipedia says so, end of, it's valid.
18:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, like you can always trust wikipedia :P
18:36:25 <fizzie> It's not the standard I use; from where I come from, a 8x16 font has 8 pixels horizontally, 16 vertically, and you stack them without any silly gaps.
18:36:29 <ehird> fizzie is the only person I've ever see claim otherwise as far as metrics go.
18:36:52 <ehird> fizzie: It's kinda silly to call a column part of the glyph if it always has NO PIXELS SET.
18:36:59 <fizzie> Just consult the file names of your /usr/share/consolefonts/
18:37:24 <ehird> ls: /usr/share/consolefonts/: No such file or directory
18:38:22 <ehird> Hmm, B is quite tricky.
18:40:14 <fizzie> And anyway, it's not like you can do line-drawing characters at all if you always add gaps between the character cells.
18:40:42 <fizzie> But don't worry, I'll just mentally substitute 4x5 whenever you say 3x4.
18:41:06 <ehird> The problem, fizzie, is that your definition is really stupid.
18:41:21 <ehird> I plot 3x4 pixels, and that is a glyph. If you rendered that glyph, that is how many pixels you would use.
18:41:30 <ehird> Yes, you add spacing to use it in text— like *every* font.
18:41:35 <AnMaster> ehird, how will you draw the line drawing chars then?
18:41:50 <AnMaster> I think that question is very valid
18:42:05 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm skeptical that you even know what that means. It sounds like you're specifically parroting fizzie.
18:42:08 <ehird> And the answer is you don't. And?
18:42:26 <AnMaster> ehird, um what? I can see the issue with those, since they have to fit together
18:42:29 <ehird> http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html
18:42:33 <ehird> Let's take a look shall we
18:42:40 <ehird> After every character!
18:42:46 <ehird> No line drawing possible!
18:42:59 <AnMaster> ehird, are those part of the char or not?
18:43:04 <fizzie> Huh? That's a 4x6 font. It's perfectly possible to add line-drawing characters there.
18:43:18 <fizzie> The blank pixels are part of the character bitmaps.
18:43:40 <ehird> I think that's a really uber-retarded definition, and I'm not going to entertain it. Feel free to mentally substitute.
18:44:05 <fizzie> In fact, in some cases I've used the blank pixels between lines as non-blanks; that causes the Y and y to blend together a bit, but that's just a minor issue.
18:44:52 <AnMaster> of course that will only line up if mono-spaced
18:44:59 <AnMaster> if it doesn't for you: sucks to be you
18:45:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't expect /you/ to say "sucks to be you"
18:45:26 <ais523> it's more an ehirdy thing to say
18:46:09 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster tends to optimise for the most ehird-hostile, with oft pathetic results.
18:46:20 <ehird> Anyway, this font should be semi-readable WITHOUT the gaps.
18:47:25 <AnMaster> I wonder if I can find a non-last night of the proms recording of Henry Wood's famous Fantasia on British Sea Songs anywhere...
18:47:51 <AnMaster> after all, the last night of the proms one is usually a bit... non-conventional
18:48:10 <ehird> Oh my, v vs V is going to be difficult.
18:49:12 <AnMaster> ais523, you never answered to if you watch the proms or not did you? (did I even ask?)
18:49:25 <fizzie> It is the only definition that makes sense to me; for a NxM font, that's the amount of pixels you have available for a single character; you can do tradeoffs when it comes to spacing between characters if you want. I'm going to have to go and call your definition of "uber-retarded" uber-retarded. (Besides, everywhere where I see pixel sizes for fonts that's the definition they use. The Windows command prompt window font size selector, S60putty font-select-o-t
18:49:25 <fizzie> ron, those "miscellaneous" X11 bitmap font names (5x7 and so on), etc. But I guess it doesn't make sense to continue this thread of discussion.)
18:49:33 <AnMaster> ais523, only thought it then I guess
18:50:00 <ehird> Ooh, my "z" shows a nice imagined curve.
18:50:33 <ehird> fizzie: I think I'm using typography terminology and you're using character-blitting-esque terminology, is the issue.
18:50:52 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds likely; I don't dabble with typography, I just blit pixels.
18:50:52 <ehird> My font certainly has an x-height of 4 (and, um, an everything-height of 4).
18:51:07 <ehird> Anyway, upper and lowercase done; now for numbers.
18:51:12 <ehird> I wonder if I should have uppercase numbers!
18:51:17 <AnMaster> and in bitmap computer fonts fizzie's definition is certainly a lot more common
18:51:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Maybe you've just been hanging around computer folks and not typography folks too.
18:53:04 <ehird> Heh; designing an 0 distinguishable from both o and O is hard when you can't slash it.
18:53:22 <ehird> Maybe I'll use the trick I used with N to optical-illusionify a slash.
18:53:24 <ais523> because there's no room?
18:53:35 <ehird> (Wow, optical-illusionify is accepted by OS X's spellchecker.)
18:53:54 <fizzie> Aaaanyway; I had the following train of thought: "I could put all the text data into an image to get those pixel fonts; but then it's not copy-pasteable and accessible and all. Hey, I know: I'll use the Unicode block-drawing characters to put 2x2 pixels inside each character cell, those at least are bound to be monospaced enough. Then it's all text, not image, and you can... uh... copy-paste the pixels... and, err... have a screen reader read out the blocks a
18:53:54 <fizzie> nd, uh... maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all?"
18:54:13 <ehird> Hmm, I can't seem to apply the trick.
18:54:28 <ais523> fizzie: we're going to have to make an ASCII art font, now
18:55:12 * ehird stops laughing IRL at fizzie's comment
18:55:18 <ehird> i'm going to sue you for hurting my chest
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18:59:05 <ehird> Drawing lowercase and uppercase numbers is fun.
19:01:02 <ehird> Oh dear; my uppercase 2 = my uppercase Z.
19:02:43 <ehird> Okay, I just have to distinguish my uppercase and lowercase 5s and I've done the numbers.
19:06:03 <ehird> Both of my 8s probably need refining; they're hard to distinguish.
19:06:08 <ehird> But I'll do symbols first.
19:06:24 <ehird> I'm very pleased with how I handled lowercase e.
19:07:16 <ehird> Hey, poll! Should I do bold and italics? Please say no.
19:07:40 <ais523> no, just do them with colours
19:07:44 <ais523> to get yourself subpixel bold
19:07:55 <ehird> Colours aren't allowed :P
19:07:57 <ais523> likewise, subpixel italics (that would probably be easier0
19:08:04 <ais523> you could do it algorithmically
19:08:55 <ehird> Anyway, my lowercase and uppercase bold aren't just descends/letter-height!
19:09:02 <ehird> Numbers, not bold.
19:09:20 <ehird> (As in, "lowercase number" generally means descending, whereas "uppercase number"'s bottom is the same as that of a letter.)
19:09:41 <ehird> Mine're actually numbers tweaked to look like they're extensions of the lowercase, and uppercase, alphabet.
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19:12:30 <ehird> ais523: Should I do lowercase and uppercase punctuation? (NO)
19:15:36 <ehird> ais523: Nor do lowercase and uppercase numerals.
19:15:46 <ehird> The point is "these characters look like they belong to the letters of that case in the same font".
19:15:54 <oerjan> you could use those to separate thousands...
19:16:43 <ehird> Darn, I can't do curly quotes :D
19:17:03 <ehird> Well, single quotes sure
19:17:06 <ehird> Double quotes, nuh uh
19:18:55 <fizzie> No, it's been 3x4 the whole time.
19:19:06 <oerjan> well i assume the vertical is longest, anyway
19:19:09 <fizzie> Right, 4x3, the funky.
19:19:13 <ehird> I started doing 4x3 but gave up because it's impossible, at least roman.
19:19:17 <ehird> Italics may be possible in 4x3.
19:19:28 <ehird> 3x4 is criminally easy compared to 4x3.
19:21:01 <ehird> It works, trust me.
19:21:22 <ehird> It also works, although less so.
19:21:28 <ehird> Deewiant: N is a fun one, though.
19:21:37 <Deewiant> Would making the next-to-last line # # be better?
19:21:47 <ehird> The lack of a pixel in the top-right gives the illusion of a slant.
19:21:51 <ehird> Deewiant: In which?
19:22:27 <ehird> I think it looks too much like a stapler-style N with a too-thick line.
19:22:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Ah, that's probably better.
19:24:40 <ehird> I think I pulled off $ quite well...
19:25:14 <Guest76637> i've not been reading, but - are you working with square pixels?
19:25:15 <ehird> Considering the constraints.
19:25:25 <ehird> In this font, yes.
19:25:35 <ehird> Which makes things harder for such a small size...
19:26:40 <ehird> My s and S-based $ both look equally bad...
19:27:41 <ehird> I think the s-based one gets it better.
19:28:41 <fizzie> My 3x6 $ is a really silly one (mostly the font is 3x5, but $ is so rare I used the normally empty line too), though it doesn't look that bad in context:
19:29:36 <ehird> Oh boy, % is gonna be fun.
19:32:37 <ehird> Ah, this makes quite a passable $:
19:32:50 <ehird> That's 5 lines high.!
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19:33:31 <ehird> fizzie: what's your %?
19:33:45 * Sgeo is addicted to Tremulous
19:34:19 <fizzie> Well, it's the size of an uppercase 3x5 character, so it's the obviousish
19:34:26 <fizzie> Doesn't really work in your case.
19:35:22 <ehird> Derived from yours.
19:35:24 <ehird> Both look stupid :D
19:35:54 <ehird> ...butu zoomed out, the latter seems to be not entirely dissimilar to %.
19:36:40 <ehird> Think I'll go for the former.
19:38:01 <ehird> Maybe I'll try something with "et"
19:38:31 <fizzie> My & isn't very great (and of course too big for you):
19:38:58 <fizzie> It's... uh, stylished.
19:40:17 <ehird> fizzie: Anyway, my final & will be more stylised by far...
19:40:48 <fizzie> With less pixels comes.. great responsibility? I don't think that's quite the quote.
19:40:52 <ehird> Currently have a 5x4 & looking sort-of-okay.
19:40:59 <ehird> Well, more like a hybridised et.
19:42:47 <ehird> Awesome, just need to lob off one more column and it'll fit.
19:43:05 <ehird> ...aaand I end up with "e".
19:43:08 <ehird> Let's... tweak that.
19:43:37 <ehird> fizzie: What character is this?
19:44:00 <fizzie> I'm not very good at these image puzzles. Is it a dog?
19:44:13 <ehird> It's a cat getting mauled by a character that pretends to be an ampersand.
19:44:20 <ehird> (The cat, and the mauling, are off-screen.)
19:44:43 <ehird> Haha oh man I am so adding a Moof character
19:45:21 <ehird> ...yeah, not happening.
19:46:09 <ehird> Okay, decision time:
19:46:26 <ehird> Which should be the ampersand?
19:46:56 <Deewiant> At this zoom level I prefer the former although neither look anything at all like &
19:49:04 <ehird> The first looks more like a smudge at 100%, fwiw
19:49:12 <ehird> Whereas the latter looks... uh, more like the cent sign than anything.
19:49:38 <ehird> Ahahahahaha, asterisk
19:49:49 <ais523> ehird: but you're underage!
19:49:50 <ehird> fizzie: Sorry to ask, but, uhh, what's your asterisk.
19:50:04 <ehird> Not in the Vatican City!
19:51:02 <ehird> That, um, that's an x.
19:51:10 <ehird> That's a multiplication symbol if anything.
19:51:19 <fizzie> Yes, well, the positioning (upper three lines) makes it an asterisk. :p
19:51:34 <Deewiant> And moving it down by one line makes it an x?
19:51:41 <ais523> incidentally, fizzie's drawing's pixel-identical to the asterisk in MS Sans Serif, at some small font size
19:51:46 <ehird> No, his x has a double line at the bottom
19:51:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: Moving it down by one line and adding another # # at the bottom.
19:51:54 <ehird> I am a fontstalker.
19:52:07 <fizzie> And adding a # # at the top of the lowercase x makes an X.
19:53:10 <ehird> I wonder how to indicate lowercase/uppercase numbers in the input stream.
19:54:13 <fizzie> There were no asterisksks in the rfk messages, so it's not in that font file. But http://zem.fi/~fis/font00l.png and http://zem.fi/~fis/font00h.png make up the whole ISO-8859-1 set; those have been scaled by 200%, and there's some extra whitespace, and the "high-ascii" characters are really bad, but...
19:55:08 <fizzie> I have a third plane for the U+2500 .. U+257f line-drawing characters, but it's far less interesting.
19:55:23 <ehird> Ha ha ha, angle brackets.
19:55:51 <ehird> fizzie: I should probably rearrange mine in ascii order sometime.
19:56:07 <ehird> I guess I'll just use the last ascii chars for the uppercase numbers.
19:56:14 <ehird> After all, I have no chance of doing accents.
19:56:24 <ehird> Aww, that ü makes a wonderful :).
19:56:36 <ehird> And that ö makes a wonderful :o.
19:56:53 <Asztal> the ì í makes an angry face :(
19:57:32 <fizzie> The symmetric :) is probably Ü -- the actual ü is a bit lopsided. Unless you prefer that, of course.
19:57:39 <ehird> Asztal: last row, third and forth
19:57:49 <ehird> And then... uh... either male or fefmale, I forget.
19:57:54 <ehird> fizzie: It looks cuter that way.
19:58:20 <fizzie> That's evil-and-female triplet is òóô, I think. Not very like it.
19:58:54 <ehird> fizzie: Drop the middle pixel of the ^ thing in ^o
19:58:55 <fizzie> It was originally "that's ô", then I went and edited it.
19:59:20 <fizzie> I probably should. It just looks so 8-like then.
19:59:40 <fizzie> Oh well, who needs accents anyway.
20:03:04 <ehird> This is impossible.
20:03:22 <ais523> not really, just leave out the a in the middle
20:03:24 <ais523> and draw the outer loop
20:04:08 <ehird> But that results in a character almost identical to my e. :P
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20:07:26 <ais523> I once tried to do a font for the characters in 7-bit ASCII on 7-segment displays
20:13:41 <ehird> Okay, I have no idea how to do either | nor ~.
20:14:05 <ehird> *Maybe* I could do | by omitting the top and bottom pixels, like a reversal of the usual |.
20:14:18 <ehird> Or by omitting just the top one. Hey, that could work.
20:16:42 <ehird> Printable ASCII sans the space plus ten extra digits fits perfectly into a 26x4 block. Who knew?
20:17:17 <ehird> Anyone have an opinion on whether I should keep orditch the lower/uppercase digits?
20:18:53 <ehird> fizzie: FWIW, just tested "And how!" without spacing; looks perfectly fine
20:26:39 <impomatic> A few 8 bit computers didn't support lower case.
20:29:31 <ehird> impomatic: Not just lower/uppercase.
20:29:33 <ehird> Lower/uppercase DIGITS.
20:43:11 <ehird> It's rather hard to distinguish the upper and lower case...
20:43:21 <ehird> fizzie: challenge me to do the lowercases as 3x3.
20:43:53 <ehird> Well, and ascenders/descenders
20:50:36 <ehird> I can't do the fancy e that way.
20:50:53 <ehird> But I don't want to give capitals another row... that'd make it 4x4, which is BOOOOOOORING
21:20:53 <ehird> Deewiant: because my I has no stupid serifs.
21:23:17 <ehird> LACK OF SERIFS: Meh
21:25:18 <oerjan> SERIOUS SERIF SHORTAGE, SHERIFF
21:25:35 <ehird> "I'll serif. Your mom)))))))))))
21:27:43 <ehird> Maybe I'll make the world's smallest italic, serifed pixel font.
21:27:59 <ehird> Can't be too many of 'em that are small, can there?
21:37:46 <ais523> what size are you planning?
21:38:27 * oerjan suggests somewhere around the planck scale
21:39:16 <ehird> Damn, making italic letterforms is hard.
21:40:37 * oerjan suggests putting something under the edge of the monitor
21:42:42 <ehird> You realise that italic letterforms are not just normal letterforms rotated? :P
21:43:24 <oerjan> oh wait it's a _shear_, not a rotation
21:43:36 <ehird> No, they're totally different designs.
21:45:15 <pikhq> Ehird speaks truth.
21:45:40 <ehird> The irony of misspelling my name while defending typography :P
21:46:22 <ehird> Technically, pikhq does it all the time, BUT.
21:46:24 <pikhq> Italic scripts tend to be a bit more... Curvy.
21:46:38 <ehird> Italic: MORBIDLY OBESE
21:46:42 <oerjan> ic. maybe a mobius transform then?
21:47:03 <ehird> ITT: oerjan discovers that you can transform any piece of geometry into another
21:47:20 <pikhq> oerjan: More transforms are involved.
21:47:55 <Ilari> How is B(ullshit)MI of that defined? :-)
21:48:17 <fax> weight / height
21:48:23 <Ilari> Number of pixels per height?
21:48:27 <pikhq> Obviously, there exists a set of transforms that one could apply, but I think it's a bit on the nontrivial side to make Roman scripts into Italic. (Italic scripts, FWIW, are more curved because they more closely resemble handwriting)
21:48:50 <ehird> Windows just renders the font normally and tilts it if it doesn't have any italic script.
21:48:51 <Ilari> Or set area / height?
21:48:54 <ehird> WINDOWS IS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL
21:49:21 <pikhq> Sadly, many just do oblique type calling it italic.
21:49:31 <pikhq> ehird: That's oblique script.
21:49:56 <ehird> It automatically makes oblique script (badly), and uses it when italic isn't present.
21:51:17 <ehird> for the attention of— magic
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22:46:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> WINDOWS IS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL <-- old news.
22:50:31 <ehird> Why am I allowed to connec
22:50:31 <ehird> I overflowed my limit didn't I
22:50:31 <ehird> maybe it's just blocking http
22:50:32 -!- coppro has joined.
22:50:33 <ehird> yo, socks proxy anyone?
22:52:44 <coppro> ehird: is the proxy woolen?
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22:53:21 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:53:21 <fungot> ehird: david bowie alan ginsberg 2 args, " distance" thing makes any sense
22:53:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:01:42 <ehird> 15GB. None; pay as you go
23:01:43 <ehird> I doubt I've really used 15 gig...
23:01:45 <ehird> but I can't think why else HTTP requests are being forwarded to Vodafone's "lol hi this is your connection register or login" page.
23:02:51 <ehird> oh jesus, horrible lag
23:04:08 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving...").
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23:11:13 <ehird> every single thing y'all said in like
23:11:15 <ehird> [23:02] fungot joined the chat room.
23:11:16 <fungot> ehird: night man. don't be afraid so they can't be bothered reading books these days. it seemed to me that the actors have a bunch of developers with stuff that makes me coolest of all.
23:11:17 <ehird> [23:02] AnMaster: hm
23:11:19 <ehird> [23:02] AnMaster: it isn't here?
23:11:21 <ehird> [23:02] fizzie: Hey, where's the bot?
23:19:32 <fungot> FireFly: expected 2 argument(s) to procedure eval, got 1.
23:22:12 <ehird> that line is wonderful, i don't know why, it just sits well with me
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03:14:44 <zzo38> In order to learn to be a Real Programmer, one should write a Forth interpreter in machine-codes (or assembly language).
03:16:11 <zzo38> One day, in order to learn how to build a computer, I will try to make a computer with z80-based, and a On-Screen-Display chip, a few buttons on the front, keyboard connect, audio, and external memory.
03:16:17 <pikhq> In order to be a Real Programmer, one should learn a defining feature of programmers: laziness.
03:16:58 <zzo38> I can have addresses 0000-3FFF=internal ROM,4000-7FFF=RAM, 8000-BFFF=external memory,C000-FFFF=I/O and OSD
03:17:44 <zzo38> In order to do it, I should write a emulator, with a option to enable/disable ROM writing, to make the ROM act as RAM instead if you enabled that option, so that it can be written a Forth interpreter with some stuff built-in
03:18:17 <zzo38> Much of Forth is generally written in Forth itself, so therefore a emulator with that option would be a useful feature to make a Forth system from it.
03:19:06 <zzo38> pikhq: Anyone who should be a Real Programmer should learn a few things about machine-codes!
03:19:26 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm not disputing that.
04:39:14 <Warrigal> TI graphing calculators use z80-type processors, don't they?
04:53:55 <Sgeo> Hm, in this spec I'm writing, I don't define what I mean by an "internal key"
04:54:29 <Sgeo> I mean, it hardly makes sense to define it in this spec, since the way my product uses it will require more than just this spec
04:54:53 <Sgeo> But not defining it would lead to compatibility issues with anyone who wanted to compete and read my data in
05:11:52 <zzo38> What is this spec for?
05:12:08 <Sgeo> zzo38, an upcoming product of mine.
05:12:31 <Sgeo> zzo38, http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgtq868h_62gp6gxtz3
05:12:41 <Sgeo> I'm going to stop publishing soon, so read it
05:13:32 <Sgeo> "An animation list consists of animation names, followed by spatial specification, possibly followed by camera specification, separated by colons, and an amount of time, in integer milliseconds" needs to be reworded
05:13:54 <Sgeo> And the EBNF is incomplete, but afair accurate
05:15:08 <zzo38> I'm still unsure what its purpose is
05:16:38 <Sgeo> The product will allow people to set up positions where people who sit on furniture end up sitting
05:16:51 <Sgeo> Each "seat" can play several animations in order
05:16:58 <Sgeo> With camera changes
05:18:23 <Sgeo> It just occured to me that the spec version shouldn't be specified per seat
05:19:27 <Sgeo> But still accessible WTF?
05:20:03 <zzo38> Are control characters allowed in animation names?
05:20:45 <Sgeo> You mean ASCII control characters? No, because SL doesn't allow it
05:21:17 <zzo38> So it need not be specified in this spec
05:23:55 * Sgeo still has stuff to add to the spec
05:28:28 <Sgeo> Ok, going to eat now
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05:28:51 <mad> anyone into conlangs?
05:33:06 <mad> If you could add a sound or distinction into English, what would you add? :D
05:47:51 <zzo38> My ideas of conlangs is a bit of things. One, is that to represent sounds, you would have shapes for "glottal" and "plosive" and "fricative" and so on, and for a glottal stop you somehow combine the shapes for "glottal" and "plosive" together
05:49:11 <zzo38> And then you can add a voice mark (similar to how Japanese has a voice-mark for a voice-sound)
05:49:52 <mad> what about t+glottal :D
05:50:13 <zzo38> I don't know about that
05:51:54 <mad> korean has something kinda like what you're saying
05:52:16 <mad> th (aspirate t) is like t with an extra bar
05:52:42 <mad> and ph, chh, kh (all aspirate too) have the same extra bar
05:54:57 <zzo38> Yes, but not what I mean. The "voice mark" in Japanese converts "t" to "d"
05:55:47 <mad> well, it's the same thing, except the voice mark is less part of the letter
05:57:37 <mad> some transcription schemes use 'h' for "no voicing" for letters that don't normally have an voiceless version
05:57:53 <zzo38> But I don't know Korean so I wouldn't always know
06:02:18 <mad> hmong has hm, hml, hn, hny, hl for instance
06:03:23 <zzo38> Except, Japanese also has a semi-voice-mark, converting 'h' to 'p' (voice-mark converts 'h' to 'b'). Japanese language also uses small 'tsu' to represent a pause (which acts just like any other letter, it can be part of a word)
06:03:59 <zzo38> Both these things might seem strange at first, until you look at many Japanese writing, and you can see how the words are constructed, then it appears logical.
06:04:22 <mad> yeah, that's due to how japanese evolved
06:04:48 <mad> obviously a semi-voice mark could not apply to english
06:05:14 <zzo38> Basically same thing as I mentioned. By reading many Japanese writings, I can see how the logic works why it is like this.
06:05:42 <mad> yeah, usually writing systems follow how languages work
06:07:26 <zzo38> (The Japanese writing I read mostly is the Akagi manga books)
06:09:31 <mad> how much japanese do you know%?
06:09:57 <mad> do you think english should be more like japanese? :D
06:10:08 <zzo38> Not a lot, but more than many people do
06:10:22 <zzo38> I have no opinion on whether or not English should be more like Japanese.
06:10:45 <zzo38> English already exists the way it is, and probably shouldn't be change too much except for slight evolve
06:11:04 <zzo38> If you want differently, you can make conlangs (which was what you first asked about, anyways)
06:11:29 <mad> what, some people think english should be more like japanese?
06:11:45 <zzo38> Actually I don't know.
06:12:08 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not some people think English should be more like Japanese.
06:12:36 <mad> japanese has a nice feature or two (pronunciation, simple noun morphology) but it more than makes up for that in other ridiculously complex parts (verbs, writing, etc)
06:13:07 <zzo38> Well, yes... of course it is. Any language has some wrong parts!
06:15:23 <mad> yeah but some have more :D
06:19:31 <mad> some have huge pronunciation pitfalls or head spinning grammar
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06:58:07 <pikhq> Verbs, complex in Japanese?
06:59:21 <pikhq> ... Says "natteirareta".
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07:00:51 <zzo38> asiekierka asked about game of life algorithm
07:01:58 <zzo38> One algorithm (I don't know whether it meets your criteria or not), is just a simple one: a convolution filter followed by a CLUT
07:02:56 <zzo38> ImageMagick will do both.
07:07:47 <mad> pikhq: well, more like all the system of implicit subjects and objects and stuff :D
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10:09:00 <fizzie> Hrm, my embedded rfk86 font (after generating a SVG vector font out of the bitmaps, and converting that to truetype with fontforge) didn't turn up so great: http://zem.fi/~fis/ugly.png
10:10:02 <fizzie> The SVG font metrics should make it very very monospaced, but maybe fontforge's doing something silly to it while converting.
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10:38:25 <FireFly> well, SVG fonts works as webfonts, don't they?
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10:53:58 <fizzie> Firefox didn't even render a SVG with embedded SVG font.
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14:05:01 <Deewiant> The tubes are once again clogged
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14:14:01 <ehird> 20:54:29 <Sgeo> I mean, it hardly makes sense to define it in this spec, since the way my product uses it will require more than just this spec
14:14:02 <ehird> Stop calling it a product, you're not a business.
14:14:18 <ehird> 21:16:38 <Sgeo> The product will allow people to set up positions where people who sit on furniture end up sitting
14:14:19 <ehird> Damn that's some useful product
14:31:07 <ehird> 02:09:00 <fizzie> Hrm, my embedded rfk86 font (after generating a SVG vector font out of the bitmaps, and converting that to truetype with fontforge) didn't turn up so great: http://zem.fi/~fis/ugly.png
14:38:34 <fizzie> It's not *that* horrible.
14:39:43 <Deewiant> Looks fine to me, apart from the obvious sidebar mess
14:41:13 <fizzie> The space glyph maybe got dropped, since it has no pixels of content.
14:41:56 <Deewiant> I doubt it got completely dropped, or those blank lines would have two ||s on the left with no space in between
14:42:53 <fizzie> I'm pretty happy that a simple "font-size: 12px;" got me a fixed *2 scaling.
14:43:05 <ehird> It looks nothing like the screenshots, at least.
14:43:34 <fizzie> Maybe it substitutes a space from somewhere, who knows.
14:43:47 <ehird> Well... do you have a space character?
14:44:10 <ehird> Is it distinct from the glyph at a codepoint you don't implement? (Maybe "no codepoint"=that)
14:44:34 <fizzie> Uh, it's the exact same font, with the same scaling than in the screenshots.
14:44:58 <ehird> fizzie: Well, okay then.
14:45:27 <ehird> Incidentally, who the hell uses Midori?
14:45:43 <fizzie> (using a phone, expect laggy replies)
14:46:58 <fizzie> It was the least-bytes webkit thing I saw in repo; epiphany wanted some 90M of Gnomish stuff.
14:47:16 <ehird> Arora is the most popular one, I gather.
14:47:24 <ehird> But hey, no knocking of Gnomish stuff allowed :P
14:48:09 <fizzie> I don't really use it. Ff3.5 should do embedded Truetype, but it didn't want to.
14:48:27 <ehird> It is a bad Firefoxy.
14:48:35 <ehird> You have to use a special font format, don't you?
14:48:44 <ehird> Maybe. I think that's the "widely"-supported thing.
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14:49:41 <fizzie> There were all kinds of gobject-introspection-whatevers I didn't have preinstalled.
14:50:44 <fizzie> The special format is for IE, or at least that's what one cross-browser embed page said.
14:51:17 <fizzie> Have to look more closely when I get home.
14:52:20 <fizzie> There was a small CSS trick to make it work simultaneously on IE and others.
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15:01:07 * Ilari is fighting with pulseaudio.
15:04:05 <Ilari> Or actually, now with SDL...
15:21:36 -!- impomatic has joined.
15:21:41 <impomatic> Geocities sites will be removed after 26 October. :-(
15:22:00 <impomatic> Has the interesting Esoteric stuff been mirrored already?
15:23:19 <Ilari> Yay. Got sound to work. But mplayer no longer works (not related to pulseaudio)... :-/
15:24:20 <Slereah> Really, most don't exist anymore anyway
15:24:29 <Slereah> When's the last time you fund a functioning geocity site?
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15:49:22 <Ilari> Oh yay, pulseaudio process has 230MiB vmsize... Apparently likes to mmap lots of stuff...
15:49:50 <Deewiant> Who cares about the virtual size?
15:50:23 <Deewiant> The wine processes are 2.5 gigs each
15:51:33 <Deewiant> (foobar2000.exe as well as the support processes, explorer.exe, winedevice.exe, services.exe)
15:58:26 <Ilari> Heh... Apparently pulseaudio has >200 megs of shared memory segments...
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16:06:48 <ehird> What Deewiant said, who cares about virtual memory?
16:06:59 <ehird> ((Unless you're using some UBER-LAME 32-BIT PROCESSOR or something))
16:14:05 <Ilari> Even with 32-bit, it is 3GiB of virtual memory per process.
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17:44:36 <oerjan> <ehird> Whoa, hi clog. <-- there is some serious time travel in the logs before that point...
17:47:08 <Sgeo> What does oerjan mean by time travel in the logs? The bot cutting out?
17:47:18 <oerjan> 04:17:39 --- names: list (clog BeholdMyGlory Pthing FireFly augur Gracenotes fungot coppro bsmntbombdood Slereah AnMaster lifthrasiir puzzlet Guest76637 Deewiant dbc MizardX ineiros sebbu2 fizzie SimonRC Gregor EgoBot rodgort Ilari pikhq Leonidas comex_ HackEgo mtve Warrigal olsner)
17:47:20 <fungot> oerjan: a wanderer i guess. especially since i took an english lit class
17:47:24 <oerjan> 03:54:27 --- log: started esoteric/09.10.17
17:47:32 <oerjan> those are two consecutive lines
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17:49:38 <oerjan> although after all that, it is still at UTC -0700 afaict
17:50:53 <AnMaster> hm read that as "it is still an UTC -0700 addict"
17:53:34 <sebbu2> oerjan, you don't use ipot on a daily basis like everybody else ?
17:53:43 <oerjan> sebbu2: quoted line from the logs
17:54:14 <oerjan> i don't use apple products
17:54:40 <sebbu2> ( i have an old ipod, 40gb )
17:54:53 <sebbu2> ( the new ones have too little capacity storage )
17:54:57 * oerjan clearly assumed that was an internet-based drug from apple, based on the addict comment
17:55:31 <oerjan> i may be using ipot but i don't know what it is
17:57:35 <oerjan> sebbu2: the only relevant link seems to be in french
17:58:49 <sebbu2> oerjan, i'm french, and it was an april fool some year ( it was a protocol to transport ip over time, like accesssing a server in the past or in the future )
17:59:12 <sebbu2> like ipoac, except there is no real application
17:59:41 <sebbu2> ( ip over avian carriers )
18:00:12 <sebbu2> ( ipoac has already been used IRL )
18:01:02 * oerjan wonders if that recent south african experiment used ipoac but doubts it
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18:06:49 * Ilari chunks Pulseaudio into trashbin... The pulseaudio alsa driver is just plain too unstable.
18:07:11 <oerjan> it's just pulsating, silly
18:08:05 <Ilari> Deadlocks, wild CPU usage, assertion failures...
18:08:12 <davidz> hehe wrong channel. i need some moon freaks :D
18:09:34 <Ilari> And of course the pulseaudio binary is u+s (I did u-s to it) and is the classic for exploiting NULL pointer derefs.
18:10:05 <oerjan> davidz: one day we'll make the topic accurate again. at least for a few minutes.
18:10:43 <oerjan> but no, it's not about that kind of esotericism
18:11:11 <davidz> i cannot find those esoteric guys around here. it seems they don't like irc...
18:11:26 <oerjan> freenode may not be the best bet anyway
18:11:42 <davidz> does somebody in here want to beta test a moon app for hte iphone?
18:12:29 * oerjan already has a wall calendar with moon phases
18:13:11 <oerjan> and no iphone, for that matter
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18:29:48 <ehird> wow, meaningless esoteric bullshit + trendy phone
18:29:51 <ehird> ironic and amusing
18:33:18 <Deewiant> "meaningless esoteric bullshit"? All he said was "moon freaks"
18:33:51 <AnMaster> well, I can't imagine why anyone would assume this was about moon stuff except that
18:34:00 <AnMaster> unless there is esoteric astronomy or something.
18:34:22 <oerjan> when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie *SPLAT*
18:34:33 <ehird> Deewiant: [18:11] davidz: i cannot find those esoteric guys around here. it seems they don't like irc...
18:34:36 <ehird> It's clearly about esooterica.
18:34:48 <ehird> Which, yes, is bullshit
18:35:47 -!- AnMaster has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | This is about esoteric programming languages..
18:36:09 <Deewiant> ehird: Being interested in that stuff doesn't mean you're full of bullshit.
18:36:19 <ehird> And you'll note that I never claimed that
18:36:33 <Deewiant> Your tone somewhat suggested it
18:36:33 <ehird> I wonder what kind of mouth e is.
18:36:49 <ehird> Deewiant: I was calling the thing stupid, not the person
18:37:16 <ehird> Although if you go to all the trouble of making an iPhone app for some esoterica there's a good chance that you do buy into the bullshit
18:37:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you are boring
18:37:54 <ehird> anyway, that sentence is totally false, for the majority of reasonable definitions of this
18:38:18 <AnMaster> I didn't say it was true right now
18:38:24 <ehird> I didn't mean that.
18:38:35 <AnMaster> though I have been coding on cfunge today
18:39:23 <ehird> I didn't mean that.
18:39:26 <AnMaster> code cleanup mostly. Dropping the boehm-gc support (it was slow, buggy and not well tested, plus caused quite a lot of messy code due to #ifdefs in various places)
18:39:35 <AnMaster> still only in a local branch though
18:39:44 <AnMaster> oh also working on integrating your cygwin fixes
18:40:17 <ehird> What was that fingerprint that didn't work in Cygwin?
18:40:40 <ehird> Also, why does boehm need ifdefs?
18:40:44 <AnMaster> ehird, as far as remember it was PERL wasn't it?
18:40:53 <ehird> No, it was TERM or something.
18:41:25 <AnMaster> anyway I have been working on integrating the other parts.
18:41:44 <AnMaster> but right now I'm trying to figure out how to manually compile bleeding edge gcc
18:41:55 <Sgeo> ehird, if I said that I'm writing specs for something, will you scream?
18:42:11 <ehird> No, because the chance that anyone else will read them is roughly nil.
18:42:42 <ehird> AnMaster: By the way, the getaddrinfo thing is only needed for IPv6, iirc.
18:42:47 <Sgeo> My competitors will read them if they want to make something compatible with my product
18:42:48 <ehird> Isn't there another function just for v4?
18:43:00 <ehird> Sgeo: Get over yourself, you're not a company and you don't have any competitors or products.
18:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, hm iirc the alternative is deprecated or obsolete or something
18:43:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, you could argue that Windows is too.
18:43:24 <Sgeo> of what you said is correct
18:44:21 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant, btw I hit an odd issue with mycology and/or ubuntu recently.
18:45:47 <AnMaster> I was not connected to any network (that is, out of wlan range, no ethernet), mycology tests in SCKE keept failing. Didn't have time to check more right then. But what exactly is it resolving?
18:46:10 <ehird> Is localhost in /etc/hosts?
18:46:20 <AnMaster> ehird, that was the *first* thing I checked
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20:12:48 <oklopol> helloes, my computer rebooted, and i was too lazy to reopen freenode
20:18:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: i've done some querying, and it seems limits aren't taught rigorously for all our computer science students either.
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20:46:49 <fizzie> Ha, well, that explains why the font embedding examples don't work in my Firefox: noscript.forbidFonts, default, boolean, true.
20:47:00 <fizzie> There's indeed a "forbid @font-face" checkbox set in the options.
20:47:59 <fizzie> Also explains why noscript had that "I've blocked some stuff" icon for the page even though I have no actual scripts there; I did wonder about that.
20:48:28 <ehird> I love how NoScript disables stuff that isn't a script in any way nor resembles one at all!
20:48:54 <fizzie> I'm sure there have been security problems with maliciously crafted truetype fonts.
20:49:14 <ehird> I very much doubt that. (Was that a joke?)
20:49:39 <fizzie> Here's the first google hit: http://xforce.iss.net/xforce/xfdb/47103
20:49:49 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's for the java runtime and does not really apply.)
20:50:28 <fizzie> Don't they have some sort of virtual-machine bytecode thing for hinting and all?
20:50:37 <fizzie> Everything like that has security bugs.
20:51:29 <fizzie> Here's another in FreeType 2: http://www.vuxml.org/freebsd/4fb43b2f-46a9-11dd-9d38-00163e000016.html
20:51:46 <fizzie> "one-byte heap-based buffer overflow via a specially crafted TTF file".
20:52:30 <fizzie> Besides, it resembles a script in the "2. handwriting, hand, script -- (something written by hand; "she recognized his handwriting"; "his hand was illegible")" sense. :p
20:56:18 <fizzie> Heh, in Ff it also converted "font-weight: bold;" sections into some really ugly blurry antialiased mess.
21:00:31 <ehird> Illegal object error.
21:03:26 <Asztal> the "forbid @font-face" must be pretty new, it only appeared when I updated just now
21:04:27 <fizzie> It also seems to be just the space glyph that has the wrong size; I have a <glyph /> tag in the SVG for the space with an empty d="" path argument, and loaded in fontforge that turns into a 'X' which I think means no-glyph; if I "modify" it by dragging the borders around, I get a blank square. I guess I need to put something in the glyph so that fontforge won't ignore it.
21:09:23 <fizzie> Yay, putting a "M0,0" dummy-path there "fixed" it; it's invisible, but it's still a glyph as far as fontforge is concerned. Maybe not the most elegant solution ever.
21:12:12 <ehird> Try deleting the path now >:)
21:12:46 <fizzie> There's still wrong line-spacing for the font; there are small gaps between the vertical line-drawing characters. (Even though the vertical advance should be 1em by default, and I have units-per-em="576" and the character polygons are 576 units high.
21:15:50 <ehird> You know, I'd just use one image per character and some JS to auto-do it rather than fight fontforge's insanity.
21:16:14 <ehird> Oh. I thought you'd stubbed a toe.
21:16:19 <AnMaster> full bootstrap, worked, except that it ignored my LDFLAGS in building stage3
21:16:30 <AnMaster> thus meaning it ignored -rpath
21:17:08 <AnMaster> which means I either have to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH every time I want to use it, or try to figure out how to make it not ignore that flag (pretty sure I managed it before even so...)
21:19:05 <AnMaster> coppro, what do you suggest instead?
21:19:20 <coppro> it's just generally not worth the effor
21:19:27 <fizzie> But I want to be a real font when I grow up. Strange, though; ascent+descent == em size, and the full-height characters are em-size units high. I guess something somewhere might be confused by my non-standard not-a-power-of-two em-size, but it's not very easy to find a integer N such that 2^N is evenly divisible by 6 (number of rows in the bitmaps).
21:19:31 <coppro> (although you could try clang if you're just using it for C)
21:19:37 <pikhq> Idea: murder their build system.
21:20:05 <pikhq> Why oh why do they not actually use autoconf/autotools (or a superior alternative)?
21:21:08 <fizzie> Heh, the easy fix: CSS line-height: 12px; -- it even works in this browser.
21:23:03 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Why oh why do they not actually use autoconf/autotools (or a superior alternative)? <-- what are they using then?
21:23:55 <pikhq> It's autoconf and custom Makefile.in, IIRC.
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21:24:30 <AnMaster> really if you are going to use autoconf, use automake too.
21:24:45 <AnMaster> autoconf but no automake is way way way worse than autoconf+automake
21:25:11 <AnMaster> of course autoconf+automake is still a pain
21:25:29 <pikhq> Autoconf+automake is kinda bad, but at least it's consistent and understood...
21:25:52 <pikhq> Autoconf+custom Makefile.in makes baby Jesus cry.
21:26:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, consistent I agree about. But "understood"?
21:26:28 <AnMaster> how is custom one harder to understand as such
21:26:41 <AnMaster> except as a side effect of being inconsistent
21:26:52 <pikhq> All that's understood about autoconf+automake is how to deal with it.
21:26:53 <Sgeo> I once learned COBOL </completely-random>
21:27:06 <pikhq> The internal functioning is... Incomprehensible.
21:27:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, my point here was that the "less understood"-ing of autoconf+custom Makefile.in is just a side effect of the inconsistency.
21:28:02 <AnMaster> it is pretty easy to understand a Makefile.in you wrote yourself
21:28:42 <AnMaster> the thing is simply that configure substitutes @FOO@ with FOO defined using some autoconf macro
21:29:11 <AnMaster> Makefile.am differs a *lot* more from the final Makefile than Makefile.in does
21:29:39 <AnMaster> actually there might have been a conditional thing too in .in.. Analogous to #ifdef in C basically
21:30:02 <AnMaster> coppro, sure it isn't for automake only?
21:30:46 <pikhq> And then there's GNU Make's conditionals.
21:31:15 <pikhq> So many freaking layers to the GNU buildsystem...\
21:31:43 <coppro> I have been working with SCons recently and very much like it
21:32:10 <pikhq> SCons is kinda poor.
21:32:26 <AnMaster> cmake is quite nice apart from a slightly verbose syntax.
21:32:35 <pikhq> In that it's not a build system so much as it is a library with which you could reasonably *write* a build system.
21:32:37 <ehird> pikhq: why are you bothering to point that out to someone who doesn't dislike C++ :)
21:33:04 <ehird> coppro uses C++ and doesn't dislike it
21:33:21 <ehird> (he avoids the term "like" explicitly and I'm doing in kind, but it fools nobody :P)
21:33:28 <pikhq> coppro: The beatings shall continue until good taste evolves.
21:33:41 <coppro> pikhq: the thing is, though, that you can extend it however you want
21:33:53 <ehird> That could refer to both Scons and C++, and that scares me.
21:34:43 <ehird> Also: guys, the wired internet we can get here... will range from 3 to 4 megabits. The maximum speed of this 3G stick? 3.7 megabits. Yeaah... even the US is better than this in good places (erm, right?)
21:34:46 <coppro> SCons is entirely internally replaceable and extensible, other build systems make this difficult, in my experience
21:35:10 <ehird> in the old place i could get 800KiB/s out of an 8Mb (= 1024KiB/s) connection :(
21:35:25 <ehird> it doesn't help that we're on the exchange of the nearby town Prudhoe
21:35:28 <pikhq> coppro: The same is true of Autoconf, Cmake, custom shell scripts, custom Perl scripts, and even "To build, cc *.c -o foo".
21:35:30 <ehird> in hexham there was an exchange in town
21:35:58 <ehird> coppro: if you ever need or want to totally replace or extend it, it's broken
21:36:52 <coppro> pikhq: No. Anything based on Make directly or indirectly has limitations of Make's irritating dependency system
21:37:35 <ehird> I wish there was a dance with accompanying song going like: "working around the limitations of the language in tools, yeah yeah yeah" because I would dance and also sing it.
21:37:52 <pikhq> And anything based on SCons inherently has the limitations of IT BASICALLY BEING A CUSTOM PYTHON SCRIPT WHICH HAPPENS TO USE A LIBRARY FOR THE BUILDING.
21:38:15 <ehird> SCons: I'm certain we can make Python into a declarative language if we try hard enough.
21:38:15 <Sgeo> Should I learn Scala?
21:38:36 <ehird> I learnt it, liked it, realised it sucked, and yeah.
21:38:44 <pikhq> I will admit that Make is kinda poor. But SCons is a step backward from Autotools.
21:38:59 <ehird> (It sucks mainly because you still have 90% of the shit from Java pissing you off, but also because of some language flaws.)
21:39:03 <pikhq> (still better than Ant -- that's a step backward from Make.)
21:39:10 <ehird> pikhq: WHOA, I'm not sure I'd go that far (wrt scons/autotools)
21:39:31 <ehird> Let's just call them equals near the bottom of the good-build-system list.
21:40:06 <pikhq> ehird: But Scons isn't even a build system.
21:40:21 <ehird> Neither is autotools, it's actually an incarnation of Cthulhu.
21:41:20 <coppro> just out of curiosity, how do you define it as not being a build system?
21:41:44 <coppro> because you only have to run one program for it to work?
21:43:33 <pikhq> No, but because you are writing a somewhat involved Python script which happens to make a few calls to Scons at times.
21:44:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> in the old place i could get 800KiB/s out of an 8Mb (= 1024KiB/s) connection :( <-- that is quite good. Around what I get from mine
21:44:43 <ehird> It's not good compared to the 50Mb you can easily get elsewhere.
21:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird, elsewhere being big cities?
21:45:04 <ehird> No, e.g. Sweden/Finland/Norway.
21:45:17 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, you can't get that in small towns
21:45:23 <AnMaster> and not over ADSL anywhere I bet
21:45:37 <AnMaster> isn't like 24 MBps the limit of ADSL?
21:45:53 <AnMaster> cable or fibre can give you more yes
21:45:57 <ehird> What you mean to say is "you can't get that in my small town".
21:46:23 <ehird> I know ADSL/ADSL2+, and you mean ADSL2+.
21:46:28 <ehird> No. There is fibre-optic.
21:46:35 <ehird> That is what the 50Mb connections are.
21:46:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well I was saying the limit of ADSL. With that I mean ADSL*
21:47:14 <ehird> ADSL is a worthless hack anyway. Fibre-optic is the only sane internet delivering system...
21:48:03 <ehird> If only companies would offer to charge you an insanely expensive set up fee, as opposed to just saying "nope, haven't laid pipes there yet".
21:48:27 <AnMaster> I think there are plans on some soft of fibre optic gird in this town
21:48:29 <pikhq> Also, "env = Environment(ENV = {'PATH' : os.environ['PATH']})" is criminal.
21:48:48 <ehird> We'll probably get the cheapest >4Mb connection we can find, just for the lower latency than 3G...
21:48:53 <ehird> ...but it's really, really annoying.
21:49:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, erhm... what is env after that
21:49:28 <AnMaster> because it seems we have set too many layers of PATH there
21:49:56 <ehird> You're making no sense.
21:50:17 <ehird> Ugh, why am I getting so tired these days?
21:50:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's creating an environment object which has PATH equal to the global environment's PATH.
21:50:34 <ehird> Exactly coinciding with moving, in fact.
21:51:07 <ehird> Maybe because this room has no curtain, and possibly I need a brighter light.
21:51:19 <AnMaster> env = Environment(ENV = {'PATH' : os.environ['PATH']})
21:51:29 <ehird> You fail at Python forever.
21:51:36 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yeah it is python. right
21:51:46 <ehird> "ENV =" is your slipup.
21:51:46 <AnMaster> then it makes a bit more sense
21:51:47 <pikhq> s/Set ENV to/the ENV argument is/
21:51:50 <ehird> btw, pikhq, it should be ENV=
21:52:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, but why. What other sort of argument could an environment have
21:52:27 <ehird> AnMaster: ENV = environment variables
21:52:30 <ehird> Other things = cflags, etc
21:52:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: CPPPATH,
21:52:41 <ehird> SCons::Environment != OS::Environment
21:52:47 <ehird> Scons::Environment contains OS::Environment
21:52:57 <AnMaster> cflags is also an environment variable to me, but whatever
21:53:12 <coppro> pikhq: how involved the python script is depends on what your building
21:53:22 <ehird> coppro: we've used SCons too, you know
21:53:26 <ehird> probably for longer than you
21:53:30 <ehird> we know how it works.
21:53:44 <coppro> nonetheless, I feel an urge to correct any generalizations
21:54:07 <ehird> I guess we're just misguided and don't have any valid complaints whatsoever.
21:54:31 <pikhq> coppro: env = Environment(ENV=os.environ) is already going beyond what should be needed...
21:54:53 <coppro> you don't have to do it, you know
21:56:02 <ehird> Technically true; also useless.
21:56:40 <pikhq> Do if you don't want to blithly ignore CC, CFLAGS, and friends...
21:57:32 <coppro> I'm not of the opinion such things should be environment vars... that said, I do wish it had make's command-line configuration ability
21:57:40 <coppro> (without you adding it, that is)
21:58:38 <pikhq> Explicit handling of CC and CFLAGS is a sign that you're doing it REALLY FUCKING WRONG.
21:58:46 <coppro> I don't think CFLAGS should be an env var, but I would like more scons CFLAGS=*bla*
21:59:53 <AnMaster> okay I just edited the generated Makefile of GCC in a hope that it would help...
22:00:12 <AnMaster> coppro, actually it seems to now. So far
22:00:45 * coppro kills the GCC build system with an electrified spork
22:00:57 <pikhq> coppro, you're not qualified to.
22:01:07 <AnMaster> scons here would be even worse
22:01:21 * coppro thinks for a second, then does the same thing to the entire source tree
22:01:27 <AnMaster> that would probably mean rewriting large parts of it just to get it to listen to LDFLAGS.
22:02:05 <AnMaster> ah wait no need to edit makefile
22:02:14 <AnMaster> I could override by setting those on command line of make
22:02:38 <AnMaster> make BOOT_LDFLAGS='...' LDFLAGS_FOR_TARGET='...'
22:03:57 <pikhq> http://www.scons.org/doc/production/HTML/scons-user/x4076.html ...
22:04:04 <AnMaster> also ... is replaced with -Wl,-rpath,/home/...
22:04:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, what do you think of cmake? Apart from the overly verbose syntax
22:05:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Cmake is rather well-done.
22:05:14 <pikhq> And its syntax doesn't seem all that verbose...
22:05:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, not the syntax though. You can't claim that.
22:05:26 <pikhq> Though it apparently used to be.
22:05:40 <coppro> cmake is based on make :(
22:05:44 <pikhq> "if(foo) bar endif(foo)" is how they used to do it. :(
22:05:49 <AnMaster> coppro, what is wrong with that?
22:06:07 <coppro> but make sucks. It really does.
22:06:14 <pikhq> coppro: No, the make backend is merely one backend.
22:06:38 <AnMaster> <pikhq> "if(foo) bar endif(foo)" is how they used to do it. :( <-- used to? They dropped that?
22:06:39 <coppro> yeah, because I really want to make an IDE project :/
22:06:42 <pikhq> And you're a proponent of something that's less capable than Cmake. Shaddup.
22:06:46 <ehird> Can we stop talking about shitty compilers for shitty languages and their shitty tools?
22:06:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: "if(foo) bar endif()" now.
22:06:58 <ehird> Shut up, C++ user.
22:07:04 <pikhq> ehird: They're still relevant.
22:07:16 <ehird> Yes, but it's so upsetting.
22:07:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm. that () seems a bit out of place
22:07:22 <ehird> Or, you know, not.
22:07:25 <ehird> But it's mildly irritating!
22:07:44 <ehird> oklopol: your mom is irrelevant
22:08:03 <ehird> no, that was pretty terrible
22:08:21 <coppro> hmm... /me starts wondering whether cmake can be considered a build system
22:08:33 <ehird> ah, the classic zealot tactic
22:08:46 <pikhq> Okay, and this is the embodiment of evil: http://www.scons.org/doc/production/HTML/scons-user/x4105.html
22:08:51 <AnMaster> ehird, from the point of view of being a good insult yes. From the point of view of being funny, no
22:08:53 <ehird> "And now... I will search for tenuous ways to attack YOUR favoured system! Arguments? Fuck arguments, I'll attack YOUR preferences!"
22:09:06 <pikhq> "if not env.GetOption('clean')"? AAAAAAAAAGH!
22:09:13 <ehird> "Your build system was written by fags! QED. I win, you are incorrect."
22:09:33 <coppro> pikhq: no disagreement on that point
22:09:47 <ehird> Ooh, ways that is not pythonic: CamelCase. Saying "get" in a method name in that way, ever. Not using ['foo'] instead.
22:09:54 <AnMaster> is that supposed to be build rule?
22:09:55 <ehird> So, everything apart from the "env."!
22:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: scons has no build rules
22:10:12 <ehird> in fact it's hard to say what it does have
22:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it do incremental rebuilds then
22:10:27 <ehird> Badly. But yes, it does them.
22:10:43 <coppro> AnMaster: you call functions of the environment to indicate you want to build a given target
22:10:45 <pikhq> The build commands for scons each only build if necessary.
22:10:49 <ehird> It basically shoehorns Python into a declarative language, and then adds a tiny imperative wrapper over your build declarations that are 99% imperative code.
22:10:58 <AnMaster> coppro, that doesn't even make sense in any way whatsoever
22:11:02 <ehird> (Except it's actually implemented even more shitty than that)
22:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what about out of source tree builds
22:11:11 <AnMaster> as in build tree != source tree
22:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: What's that got to do with anything, yes it does that
22:11:17 <pikhq> But it is actually a freaking Python script and going all imperative, executing each one in order.
22:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, ah. Was almost suspecting it would fail badly at that too
22:11:42 <coppro> it's actually very good at that one
22:12:08 <coppro> AnMaster: env.Program('program', ['source.c', 'more-source.c'])... it process all such calls, orders up the dependencies, and then executes them
22:12:12 <ehird> The "out of tree part", perhaps. The "build" part, no.
22:12:18 <ehird> Both are required to be good at out of tree builds.
22:12:34 <pikhq> In a way, I wish that someone would replace make with something that does exactly what make does, but better. Nuking such stupid "features" as "not supporting spaces in filenames" and "not knowing WTF quoting is"...
22:12:47 <ehird> Seriously, it's probably best to stop defending SCons, coppro; our collective knowledge of it almost certainly exceeds yours.
22:13:06 <coppro> pikhq: I do not disagree with that
22:13:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, um anyone using a space in a filename of a source file should be shot anyway
22:13:35 <ehird> Kind of like how you don't dislike C++ eh
22:13:48 <ehird> Joke, see, it was a joke.
22:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Why? Is this the 80s? Also, since when is make only for code?
22:14:18 <pikhq> I tried using make to do some massive format conversion on some media files.
22:14:22 <ehird> Personally I'd love to have an ecosystem where we can name something what it is without concern for stupid backwards-compatibility that's actually just with tools, not the underlying system.
22:14:25 <AnMaster> ehird, because typing $EDITOR "foo bar.c" is more work than $EDITOR foo_bar.c
22:14:30 <coppro> another "feature" to nuke is the total lack of any ability to generate dependencies dynamically
22:14:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: anyone who thinks spaces shouldn't be used in filenames should get a better os.
22:14:42 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I tried using make to do some massive format conversion on some media files. <-- Um... You are doing it wrong
22:14:46 <ehird> You can have a target that generates a Makefile
22:14:50 <AnMaster> that just isn't what make is meant for
22:14:56 <ehird> It was not meant as a build system
22:14:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes it is.
22:15:16 <coppro> ehird: was just about to say that doesn't count
22:15:18 <pikhq> "%.ogg: %.flac" -- This should just plain work.
22:15:19 <AnMaster> ehird, oh really? Interesting. Care to link me to it?
22:15:21 <coppro> since it requires two passes
22:15:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope, you can dig yourself out of the hole
22:15:36 <ehird> coppro: Oh come on; tenuous. It's behind-the-scenes, it automatically reloads.
22:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: But FYI, it was intended to transform any sort of file into another
22:16:02 <ehird> (And didn't give any thought to "projects", thus why using it as a build system is such a bitch)
22:16:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_(software)
22:16:46 <coppro> ehird: but not at all useful... for instance, you have to have those files exist (as blank files) before you generate them.
22:16:49 <ehird> I just use objects that use other objects and never need to build, what about you guys? Don't you use ehirdOS? :-)
22:17:29 <ehird> It's... simply false.
22:17:34 <ehird> Opposite of truth.
22:17:51 <oklopol> coppro: ehird does not explain, he mocks
22:18:05 <ehird> oklopol: shut up idiot
22:18:08 <pikhq> coppro: You don't have to have those files exist before you generate them.
22:18:11 <ehird> coppro: It just isn't true.
22:18:12 <pikhq> That's all there is to it.
22:18:15 <ehird> There's no element of truth to it.
22:18:25 <coppro> pikhq: in my experience, make errors out if you try to use another makefile that doesn't exist
22:18:26 <ehird> How can we explain anything that's simply plainly, boringly false?
22:18:40 <ehird> coppro: ...that's totally unrelated to anything we've said
22:18:44 <ehird> I meant a target with the filename "Makefile"
22:18:45 <pikhq> No, it warns. And attempts to make the file you included.
22:18:49 <ehird> Read the GNU Make manual to find out what it doeses
22:18:52 <ehird> But what pikhq said too
22:19:06 <coppro> was thinking -MD style generated includes
22:19:08 <pikhq> It errors out if there's no rule to build that file.
22:19:22 <coppro> that happen as a side effect of other compilations
22:19:37 <pikhq> "include foo.d bar.d baz.d" in a Makefile implies the rule "Makefile: foo.d bar.d baz.d".
22:20:07 <ehird> coppro: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT I JUST EXPLAINED THINGS :P
22:20:39 <pikhq> What you do is create a rule for "%.d: %.c", and you've got automagic dependencies.
22:20:42 <oklopol> ehird: i bet you just did it to mock me
22:20:46 <pikhq> (shame that's not an implicit rule)
22:20:53 <ehird> oklopol: i did it totally accidentally in fact
22:21:02 <ehird> pikhq: huh, I never thought of that
22:21:11 <coppro> pikhq: ah, I suppose that would work
22:21:14 <pikhq> ehird: In the GNU Make info page.
22:21:18 <ehird> I always find myself overriding the default rules because there's spaces for variables I didn't use
22:21:22 <ehird> and they annoy me :)
22:21:38 <ehird> You can get it as HTLM.
22:21:43 <ehird> Just google "gnu make manual"
22:21:57 <oklopol> ehird: too tired to think of an answer
22:22:30 <AnMaster> info isn't that bad. Compared to, for example, .chm
22:22:50 <AnMaster> virtualbox comes with documentation in .chm format
22:22:51 <ehird> Hey, don't knock .chm too much.
22:22:59 * coppro fiddles around some more trying to get make to handle precompiled headers in a sane manner
22:23:01 <AnMaster> so you need to have kchmviewer installed
22:23:06 <ehird> You're probably mocking it because it's a Windows thing, but it's a fairly well-designed hypertext system.
22:23:16 <ehird> info is *at least* 100 times worse.
22:23:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh what about old .hlp then?
22:23:33 <ehird> Pretty similar, really.
22:23:34 <pikhq> Info's a bit of a hack.
22:23:48 <pikhq> It at least works decently, but... Yeah, it's a hack.
22:23:53 <pikhq> GNU seems to do a lot of hacks.
22:24:01 <coppro> you know what the best (not) thing about make and precompiled headers is? I can't get it to work because GCC is broken.
22:24:13 <ehird> info does not work decently
22:24:19 <ehird> every time I run it I quit without getting a solutioino
22:24:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, well info syntax isn't quite as bad as man page syntax IMO
22:24:23 <ehird> it's painful to navigate
22:24:24 <coppro> info is the emacs version of man
22:24:36 <coppro> except without the usefulness
22:24:36 <ehird> that analogy doesn't even make sense
22:24:44 <pikhq> No, info is a hypertext system.
22:24:45 <AnMaster> sure the default info application is horrible
22:24:45 <ehird> emacs simple editing = vim simple editing in usage
22:24:54 <ehird> info(1) is unusable, unlike man(1)
22:24:56 <coppro> *ehird: lots of needless complexity
22:24:58 <ehird> in even its most basic usage
22:25:03 <pikhq> Man is not hypertext, it's just text.
22:25:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you know that emacs has a built info reader right?
22:25:07 <ehird> AnMaster: info is the GNU software
22:25:13 <ehird> we are talking about it, as well as the underlying format
22:25:15 <ehird> Yes, I do, it's bad
22:25:16 <coppro> ehird: was comparing emacs to a plain text editor, not to vim, of course
22:25:22 <ehird> Worse than man(1), like every info reader
22:25:46 <coppro> man isn't itself a reader
22:25:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that I agree about, but man doesn't work well for large stuff, like emacs docs. Imagine all the documentation of emacs in a single man page
22:26:07 <pikhq> Man is a shell script that does nroff with appropriate options and pipes it into PAGER.
22:26:20 * ehird views ls(1) in Xcode, which converts it to HTML first, just to annoy a large section of the participants in the current discussion
22:26:33 <ehird> mac haters, gui haters, ide haters, man haters, html ubiquity haters
22:26:46 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/man: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped
22:26:49 <coppro> discussion? WTF! I'm leaving
22:26:55 <pikhq> Really, it's not a shell script?
22:27:12 <ehird> I have a BSD handy!
22:27:15 <pikhq> ... So it's a *program* that does system(nroff) and system(PAGER)...
22:27:27 <ehird> [~]$ file $(which man)
22:27:28 <AnMaster> * ehird views ls(1) in Xcode, which converts it to HTML first, just to annoy a large section of the participants in the current discussion <-- konqueror man:/
22:27:31 <coppro> ehird: I'm getting annoyed at the wrong part of your sentence. It's supposed to be slightly funny
22:27:41 <ehird> /usr/bin/man: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures
22:27:41 <ehird> /usr/bin/man (for architecture i386):Mach-O executable i386
22:27:41 <ehird> /usr/bin/man (for architecture ppc7400):Mach-O executable ppc
22:27:50 <AnMaster> ehird, of course firefox or nautilus can't do it
22:27:51 <Deewiant> Even on Solaris: /usr/bin/man: ELF 32-bit MSB executable SPARC Version 1, dynamically linked, stripped
22:28:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Firefox can open apt:pkg, I'm sure it could handle man:
22:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, that fails to annoy mac haters and ide haters
22:28:37 <ehird> Yes, there will be KDE haters and Konqueror haters, but mine annoys a probably-larger subset
22:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, about apt, is just a protocol handler calling an external program
22:29:00 <AnMaster> ehird, man:/ in konq renders it nicely inside konq
22:29:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Several questions are raised, such as "why god why do you have a Solaris system to hand"
22:29:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Eh, whatever
22:29:10 <AnMaster> and it works fairly well for them too
22:29:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Because my school has them.
22:29:23 <ehird> Xcode doesn't add any styling to the man page so it's pretty ugly
22:29:43 <ehird> Although you can navigate to a section in the manpage in the little toolbar above it, which amuses me
22:29:46 <ehird> Someone coded that!
22:29:59 <ehird> (Although it probably just does it for every HTML page, since all the OS X docs are HTML)
22:30:12 <pikhq> Konqueror uses the same stylesheet as it uses for KDE's HTML documentation, I think.
22:31:13 <AnMaster> yay managed to build gcc correctly
22:31:57 <coppro> no such thing as building gcc correctly :P
22:32:01 <AnMaster> and it compiles cfunge correctly
22:32:09 <Deewiant> coppro: I wonder how Gentoo gets by?
22:32:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, gentoo even offers installing multiple versions side by side easily
22:32:42 <AnMaster> to make sure I still stay compatible with older compilers
22:32:52 <ehird> you know, I'm fairly sure that the correct response to bad jokes isn't to take them seriously
22:32:56 <AnMaster> coppro, do they offer switching default system version too?
22:33:03 <ehird> because they'll just think you didn't get it
22:33:21 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I thought it was a bad insult
22:33:34 <ehird> Same thing; obviously there is a proper way to build gcc.
22:33:40 <ehird> The joke and insult is in suggesting that you can't.
22:34:08 <coppro> /usr/bin/cc is a symlink to /etc/alternatives/cc
22:34:51 <coppro> though it does not have alternatives for gcc
22:34:54 <ehird> [~]$ ls -l $(which cc)
22:34:55 <ehird> lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 12 Feb 2009 /usr/bin/cc -> gcc-4.0
22:35:08 <ehird> [~]$ ls -l $(which c99)
22:35:09 <ehird> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 42816 27 Jun 2008 /usr/bin/c99
22:35:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, I'm using Leopard
22:35:21 <ehird> In Snow Leopard, most shit uses LLVM/Clang
22:35:26 <AnMaster> and 4.0 is so buggy that I don't even bother testing with it
22:35:26 <Deewiant> /bin/cc: a /usr/bin/perl -w script text executable
22:35:33 <ehird> [~]$ ls -l $(which gcc-4.2)
22:35:33 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 105680 1 Oct 2008 /usr/bin/gcc-4.2
22:35:41 <ehird> I bet Snow Leopard has a newer version, too
22:35:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly is your /usr/bin/c99
22:35:57 <ehird> [~]$ c99 --version
22:35:57 <ehird> c99: illegal option -- -
22:35:58 <ehird> usage: c99 [-cEgs] [-D name[=value]] [-I directory] ... [-L directory] ...
22:35:58 <ehird> [-o outfile] [-O optlevel] [-U name]... [-W 64] operand ...
22:36:02 <ehird> AnMaster: POSIX-compliant thing, I guess.
22:36:04 <ehird> It'll just call gcc.
22:36:22 <ehird> C99(1) BSD General Commands Manual C99(1)
22:36:23 <ehird> c99 -- standard C language compiler
22:36:31 <ehird> The c99 utility interface conforms to IEEE Std 1003.1-2001 (``POSIX.1'').
22:36:53 <AnMaster> exec gcc -std=c99 -pedantic -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE ${1+"$@"}
22:37:00 <AnMaster> why on earth -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE
22:37:07 <ehird> For additional fortification!
22:37:34 <ehird> Well, the extra fortification must kill it, I guess.
22:37:36 <AnMaster> what reason is there to undefine that one.
22:37:51 <ehird> Maybe forts are bad.
22:38:57 <AnMaster> ehird, while I'm aware of that you are just being silly (and not funny) atm, do you actually know what _FORTIFY_SOURCE does?
22:39:57 <AnMaster> ehird, add overflow checks, so that stuff like sprintf with a too small buffer (if the size of the buffer is known statically) fails with an abort rather than results in possibly bad stuff happening
22:40:07 <AnMaster> for a number of standard functions
22:40:36 <ehird> Well, that's not C99-compliant, then.
22:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if it is =1 or =2 iirc
22:41:05 <AnMaster> it only does build time checks at =1 level iirc
22:41:07 <ehird> Well, then it disables it just to be safe.
22:41:48 * AnMaster waits for ehird's reaction, guessing he never tried it before
22:42:06 <ehird> Ow ow ow MY SPLEEN
22:42:14 <ehird> It's so ugly it hurts my spleen
22:42:23 <coppro> here, have a mojo filter
22:42:30 <ehird> My eyes just went into override mode and ignored it entirely
22:42:32 <ehird> But my spleen, oh god
22:42:36 <AnMaster> it defines defaults for flags and parameters iirc
22:42:37 <ehird> My spleen cannot help but see
22:42:39 <AnMaster> and how some of them are handled
22:42:55 <AnMaster> though I'm not actually 100% sure if it does something else too
22:43:06 <AnMaster> %{mno-intel-syntax:-masm=att %n`-mno-intel-syntax' is deprecated. Use `-masm=att' instead.
22:43:16 <AnMaster> seems to indicate it can also warn about deprecated flags
22:43:24 <AnMaster> %{!mtune=*:%<mtune=native %:local_cpu_detect(tune)}} %{mtune=native:%<mtune=native %:local_cpu_detect(tune)}
22:43:39 <AnMaster> seems to implement the -march=native and -mtune=native stuff
22:43:46 <AnMaster> which is quite a weird place to put that
22:44:21 <AnMaster> %{march=native:%<march=native %:local_cpu_detect(arch) %{!mtune=*:%<mtune=native %:local_cpu_detect(tune)}} %{mtune=native:%<mtune=native %:local_cpu_detect(tune)}
22:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it reminds me of oil syntax
22:46:08 <AnMaster> -print-multi-lib Display the mapping between command line options and
22:46:08 <AnMaster> multiple library search directories
22:46:52 <ehird> I'm currently missing four keys and one doesn't press very well...
22:47:23 <ehird> I'm not sure you can return a keyboard for "I picked off the keys and can't get them back on again".
22:47:31 <ehird> [~]$ gcc -print-multi-lib
22:48:16 <Ilari> IIRC, one key once did get picked from this keyboard (then I figured how to push it back to its place).
22:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hm is library directory suffix for 64 bit libraries x86_64?
22:50:21 <ehird> *ahem* Time to recite my usual spiel. When I Get A Real Fucking Keyboard, Keycaps Will Indeed Slide Back On Verily So Easily.
22:50:25 <AnMaster> if not, my theory of what it means was wrong
22:50:32 <ehird> Also, The Sheer Immense Cost Will Probably Instill The Fear Of God Into Me
22:50:35 <AnMaster> ehird, why remove them all the time?
22:50:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Dunno. Maybe.
22:50:50 <ehird> I don't even notice myself doing it.
22:51:22 <AnMaster> ehird, bad habit. Try to break it (instead of the keyboard)
22:51:33 <ehird> Wow that's some helpful advice.
22:51:41 <ehird> "Why are you doing that?" "It's a habit." "Stop doing that."
22:52:34 <ehird> Therapy? For pulling keycaps off?
22:52:54 <ehird> "What are your hidden desires in pulling these keycaps off?"
22:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, a) yes, b) yes and c) no
22:53:10 <ehird> "Are you unsatisfied with your life, perhaps, so that it gives you an... outlet into your desires, perhaps?"
22:53:13 <fizzie> Your search - "pulling keycaps off" therapy - did not match any documents.
22:53:19 <ehird> "A way to feel focused... as if you're moving on... perhaps?"
22:53:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, it will soon if google gets around to indexing this
22:53:41 <ehird> Google indexes us poorly, unfortuantely.
22:54:01 <ehird> Someday I'll write that awesome log-syncer script...
22:54:19 <ehird> Such goldmineosity contained twixt the logs of oor twain!
22:54:42 <fizzie> I got a perfect (well, in the "works as supposed" sense; it's still ugly and unreadable) font-embedding thing when seen through this Firefox now; but OS X's TrueType renderizer breaks the upper parts of the glyphs, for some curious reason.
22:54:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> Someday I'll write that awesome log-syncer script... <-- oh? what would it do?
22:55:29 <ehird> Disk. Download logs for the days you don't have (so you can keep up-to-date), don't download today's log (it's not complete yet), and convert all the times to UTC.
22:55:33 <ehird> Or local time, instead of UTC.
22:55:45 <ehird> That last one's a bitch, because you have to move messages between files and keep the start/end logging messages it puts.
22:56:05 <ehird> Oh, and maybe convert it to a slightly more readable format.
22:56:08 <ehird> Word-wrap it, for instance.
22:56:33 <AnMaster> ehird, just resize your editor and have it do it?
22:56:38 <ehird> (80 is a bit too wide for reading; 72 is what's mostly recommended for comments in code.)
22:56:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Every time?
22:56:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Want to act as a lab test animal? Does the http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html page-text render properly and in the same font as in the screenshots?
22:56:46 <ehird> I edit non-log files too, you know.
22:56:49 <ehird> Anyway, it'd indent the stuff.
22:57:00 <ehird> Which most editors don't do when wrapping.
22:57:01 <Ilari> To get reliable timestamps, one should use UTC, TAI or POSIX time (with leap second markers) anyway...
22:57:06 <ehird> fizzie: Testing in Safari.
22:57:13 <ehird> fizzie: Looks fine, apart from the antialiasing.
22:57:17 <ehird> Which just makes it look smudgy.
22:57:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, what should render the same you said?
22:57:32 <ehird> fizzie: If you name your font, uh, what was it again? "Aargh" or something, Safari will disable antialiasing.
22:57:38 <ehird> (It's a hack because Acid 3 depends on the antialiasing behaviour)
22:58:12 <ehird> @font-face { font-family: "AcidAhemTest"; src: url(font.ttf); }
22:58:12 <ehird> fizzie: Call the font "Ahem".
22:58:17 <ehird> And maybe give it font-family AcidAhemTest, just to be sure.
22:58:26 <ehird> (Yes, this is an awful hack; isn't it wonderful?)
22:58:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, not on either of my computers. Tried the browsers I usually use on them (konq 3.x on desktop, firefox <whatever is default in jaunty> on the laptop)
22:58:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Firefox 3.0 doesn't support it.
22:59:01 <ehird> Konqueror doesn't support anything.
22:59:13 <AnMaster> ehird, konq uses much less ram
22:59:13 <ehird> fizzie: Are those screenshots meant to descend slightly, by the way?
22:59:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Use Epiphany or Arora or some other WebKit browser.
22:59:32 <fizzie> ehird: On this Ff the font-size: 12px; makes the font "pixels" correspond to 2x2 screen-pixels so that antialiasing doesn't cause it to go all blurry; but on my OS X (both Safari and Ff) the upper parts of the glyphs get curious |\/\/| style messups. Maybe some 10.4 bug/"feature".
22:59:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: Are those screenshots meant to descend slightly, by the way? <-- they do in my firefox, but not in konq
22:59:54 <ehird> fizzie: It's regular antialiasing here, just makes it blur a bit.
23:00:00 <ehird> fizzie: You should just do the hack I said; it's quite trivial.
23:00:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you miss out on the nice kparts stuff
23:00:04 <ehird> Also, it's evil fun, which is nice.
23:00:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Mozplugger? Admittedly it's argh, but.
23:00:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Or, switch to OS X and use Safari. Best PDF-embedding plugin ever. Admittedly it uses RAM like an unholy beast...
23:00:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I tried it. argh indeed. And that is firefox, not one of those webkit ones
23:00:58 <fizzie> ehird: I'll consider it. Anyway, it does the same blurry antialiasing here whenever the sizes don't match exactly, but when they do there's of course nothing to antialias.
23:00:58 <ehird> fizzie: I'm too lazy to do it myself but I must see! Dilemma.
23:00:58 <AnMaster> and OS X on a non-mac? hah hah. From what I heard that is a pain (though possible=
23:01:07 <ehird> I didn't say on a non-Mac.
23:01:13 <ehird> (Also, yes, it's possible; it's probably illegal.)
23:01:20 <ehird> You pay to buy OS X, too.
23:01:36 <ehird> Unless you meant pirate it and run it on a PC in which case, well, Steve Jobs will probably shit on your grave.
23:02:04 <ehird> Anyway, Safari isn't so bad... 770MiB of RAM used, yes, but I have something like 7 windows open with multiple tabs in each, mostly heavy pages.
23:02:13 <ehird> I open an awful lot of pages.
23:02:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just stuck them as float: left;s, saw the descending thing, decided it looks good enough. It wasn't an intended effect, so I guess not-descending is all right too.
23:02:26 <ehird> 11 windows actually./
23:02:32 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/foo.png is what happens on my Ff3.5.
23:02:49 <AnMaster> hm can't you disable the antialias with CSS?
23:02:51 <fax> looks nice
23:03:01 <fax> is this an emulator you wrote?
23:03:04 <AnMaster> and why on earth would acid3 depend on that
23:03:10 <ehird> 42 tabs in total, I counted.
23:03:15 <fizzie> fax: No, it's just a port of that game to the calculator.
23:03:16 <AnMaster> the workaround is a bad idea simply
23:03:21 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't disable it because it's a text thing. And to test pixel alighnment.
23:03:37 <ehird> People make a big deal of Acid 3, so. And it's an unintentional side-effect; they shouldn't really use the test.
23:03:47 <ehird> But Ian Hixie gave the go-ahead on it because it isn't really Safari's fault at all.
23:03:53 <ehird> (the author of acid 3)
23:04:10 <fax> Conclusions
23:04:10 <fax> OpenTTD is not really a very good platform to simulate digital logic circuits on
23:04:32 <fizzie> That conclusion has stood the test of time: I still think it's true.
23:04:47 <ehird> I wonder if FontForge has a binary.
23:04:55 <ehird> I wanna know if that hack still actually works...
23:05:05 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/fontforge: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
23:05:15 <ehird> *an OS X binary for download from the site
23:05:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Because, you know, it's quite obvious. :P
23:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway compiling it isn't hard (on gentoo at least)
23:06:14 <ehird> Yes, but that's too much effort just to see if fizzie could, in fact, find glory and wealth by using that hack.
23:06:20 <ehird> It is a fun hack though!
23:07:03 <AnMaster> glory and wealth by compiling fontforge for OS X?
23:07:12 <ehird> No, by naming the font Ahem
23:07:37 <fizzie> As far as I understand, for TTF-embedding whatever you write as the font-family: in the @font-face tag is what it uses, and it doesn't really care about the TTF contents at all; maybe it'd work simply by changing that.
23:07:38 <ehird> fizzie: Should you really have that exit screenshot there? It's such a spoiler!
23:07:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Then I checked, and corrected.
23:08:00 <ehird> fizzie: Then call it
23:08:22 <ehird> I could try it here if it's so simple, I guess.
23:08:33 <fizzie> But that breaks if the user has AcidAhemTest installed locally. :p
23:08:48 <ehird> AcidAhemTest, anotherfontname
23:08:53 <ehird> And have two @font-faces, one for each
23:08:58 <ehird> fizzie: But the font itself is called Ahem
23:09:00 <ehird> so there's no worry there
23:09:11 <ehird> It's just called AcidAhemTest in the @font-face
23:09:13 <fizzie> Actually I guess it doesn't unless you put AcidAhemTest also in the "local()" statement there, right.
23:09:15 <ehird> At least the last time I checked
23:09:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does the local() do?
23:10:14 <ehird> Make it check for a local font before downloading it?
23:10:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: Makes it use a locally installed font of that name if one exists.
23:10:33 <fizzie> ehird: As a side effect, it confuses IE, which would otherwise try to load the .ttf file too and fail.
23:10:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, why though? It isn't as if it is likely to exist elsewhere
23:10:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: For that side effect I mentioned.
23:10:46 <ehird> AnMaster: font-family: Zapfino
23:10:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, this feels like being back during IE 6 time
23:10:53 <ehird> Windows doesn't have Zapfino, for instance
23:11:02 <ehird> OS X would load it instantly
23:11:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: font-family: Zapfino, Fallback, Fallback
23:11:06 <ehird> The others would download it
23:11:16 <ehird> AnMaster: The whole point of @font-face is that you can use any font...
23:11:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you generate the eot file?
23:11:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's that ttf2eot tool, hosted in code.google.com.
23:12:06 <ehird> eot is just a ttf iirc.
23:12:09 <ehird> Maybe in some wrapper.
23:12:27 <fizzie> There's something special, but I'm not sure what the special is.
23:12:46 <ehird> Anyway, change that one line in the CSS, you bum!
23:12:52 <fizzie> There's the binary-only Microsoft too (WEFT, Web Embedding Fonts Tool) that is the official way to generate EOT files.
23:12:56 <ehird> Technically it's "AcidAhemTest" with the quotes, but I doubt that's checked for
23:13:25 <fizzie> ehird: Okay, if it means so much to you, but you must then also test it with your OS X death-station.
23:13:48 <ehird> Also: As far as I know I have never stationed any deaths with this OS
23:14:33 <fizzie> Okay, now it should be "AcidAhemTest" in the CSS rules. Of course if it actually tests for the font name, that won't help.
23:14:38 <Sgeo> ehird, um, what?
23:14:57 <ehird> Is it just me, or does Sgeo never say what to anything that's actually not understandable in any way?
23:15:01 <ehird> It's always the plain, simple statements.
23:15:15 <Sgeo> "Also: As far as I know I have never stationed any deaths with this OS" What, exactly, does that mean?
23:15:36 <ehird> Are you ignoring fizzie?
23:16:18 <ehird> fizzie: Alas, the same. I don't suppose you could rename the font Ahem?
23:16:54 <ehird> "So Hyatt and I came to a deal. I would move the test down and to the left one pixel, so it doesn't affect the border anymore, he would accept to remove the hack, and would fix one additional bug (a background-position rounding bug)."
23:16:57 <ehird> — http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1206756775&count=1
23:17:06 <ehird> It's worth a try, it may still be in there
23:17:06 <AnMaster> btw gcc 4.5 finally has true LTO
23:17:08 <ehird> But what sad news!
23:17:21 <AnMaster> or will have. was snapshot I built before here
23:17:24 <Sgeo> Wait, someone changed a test so that a browser would work with it?
23:17:35 <ehird> The test was wrong, basically.
23:17:38 <ehird> Or at least tenuous.
23:17:41 <ehird> Safari hacked around it.
23:17:48 <ehird> Then the Acid 3 author made that deal.
23:17:56 <ehird> It's not as simple an issue as you might think.
23:19:23 <Sgeo> What does it mean that the blue doesn't become blue on Acid3
23:20:18 <fizzie> ehird: Well, I changed the three names in fontforge's "names" tab, and uploaded as rfk86.ttf back. You might need to do some trickery to invalidate caches or whatnot, and it might still not be enough.
23:22:04 <ehird> fizzie: Seems like that code path isn't entered any more. In the mood for an awful hack? All OS X systems (that haven't been tinkered with) disable antialiasing for 4pt and below.
23:22:17 <ehird> So if you made the glyphs really ridiculously huge and set it to 3pt in an OS X-only conditional block (say with JS)...
23:22:26 <ehird> ...you'd go insane from writing a hack for such atrivial thing.
23:23:53 <fizzie> Right; I'll consider OS X -only fixups at some other point. Maybe I could get the same effect with enough twiddling of sizes and offsets somewhere; after all, the data is just rectangularish polygons, I'm sure OS X's anti-alias algorithm would also give sharp edges if I just got the polygons to match screen pixel borders.
23:24:36 <AnMaster> ehird, "All OS X systems (that haven't been tinkered with) disable antialiasing for 4pt and below." <-- why?
23:24:52 <ehird> "Turn off text smoothing for sizes [ 4 ↓ ] and below."
23:25:05 <AnMaster> ehird, err yeah but why that limit
23:25:23 <ehird> And because antialiasing text *that* small would just be a smudge; at least there's a semi-decent chance that any font that would be set that small is pixelly enough to be readable with a magnifying glass.
23:33:32 <ehird> Ehh, I really need to figure out how to make a serifed, italic pixel font.
23:42:05 <AnMaster> why do fonts on windows has such strange filenames
23:42:26 <AnMaster> it is quite common looking there
23:44:12 <Sgeo> So Ahem is unusable for normal text?
23:45:25 <ehird> I have no idea how to respond to that question... I'm serious.
23:45:34 <ehird> I have no idea how I could articulate the idea of why that's a ridiculous question to you.
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00:21:51 <ehird> "In this climate I think it's very feasible for a company to be profitable and compete with MSFT in the OS market. Just release a Linux distro that customers subscribe to, so that the thing updates with cool options for everything that people do on computers. Wage war against fuckwads that wanna get-rich-quick, and keep it simple. No advertising. No DRM. No retards thinking they want to control society by forcing regulatory bullshit on computers that fuck t
00:21:52 <ehird> and cause everything to slow down.
00:21:52 <ehird> Make it open-concept, and easier to mod than Linux is.
00:21:52 <ehird> Fucking goldmine that would be if Reddit liked it. The world would follow."
00:21:53 <ehird> I like the logic there
00:22:03 <ehird> "Linux is unpopular because it isn't configurable and open-ended enough"
00:23:43 <Sgeo> When Linux can run ALL my Windows games easily, I'll switch back
00:25:08 <ehird> I cried at both of those lines* for different reasons.
00:25:12 <ehird> * no crying actually took place
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01:03:50 <pikhq> "Linux is unpopular because it isn't configurable and open-ended enough" ... It's certainly possible to make something more configurable, but... Linux not configurable in comparison with Windows? Ha!
01:25:56 <Ilari> To see its not configurable, look at configuration dialog of compiz or any related WM... :-)
01:26:07 <Ilari> Preferably with lots of plugins installed...
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02:07:07 <madbr> This is the craziest thing ever http://www.colorforth.com/S40.htm
02:18:54 * coppro wants to start writing programs for LLVM
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05:41:55 * pikhq shudders, vomits, and shudders some more...
05:42:03 <pikhq> In C++, new and delete... Are operators.
05:42:08 <pikhq> YOU CAN OVERLOAD NEW AND DELETE.
05:42:53 <coppro> more specifically, you can overload the underlying memory allocation/deallocatoin
05:43:40 <pikhq> That's actually somewhat useful.
05:43:56 <pikhq> But YOU CAN OVERLOAD NEW AND DELETE THEMSELVES. ON A PER-OBJECT BASIS.
05:44:08 <coppro> the actual construction/destruction of objects remains a magic part of the expression
05:44:09 * pikhq gouges out his eyes, so as to not see the horror any more
05:44:21 <coppro> pikhq: sure. Make a specific type always retrieve its memory in a given manner
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06:04:32 <coppro> pikhq: they're fixing that one :)
06:04:51 <pikhq> KILL IT WITH FIRE. KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!
06:05:19 <coppro> do you want me to explain the reason (it's pretty bad... as I said, they are fixing it, thank goodness)
06:06:08 <pikhq> That alone is reason enough to ELIMINATE EVERYONE WHO EVER DESIGNED THE LANGUAGE FROM THE GENE POOL.
06:07:01 <coppro> hmm... I've commented on the design of the fixed version. That doesn't count, right?
06:07:02 <madbr> operator void* ? ???
06:07:12 <coppro> madbr: it's a C++ conversion operator
06:07:29 <pikhq> madbr: Yes, really.
06:07:29 <coppro> it's used to provide a boolean conversion that doesn't implicitly convert to int
06:07:50 <coppro> because when they decided to add conversion operators, they didn't think to add the 'explicit' keyword for them like they did for converting constructors
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07:03:58 <madbr> how is oerjan pronounced
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08:21:02 <oerjan> 23:03:58 <madbr> how is oerjan pronounced
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08:21:10 <oerjan> well you'll never know _now_
08:21:34 <oerjan> also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.06
08:22:40 <oerjan> also, how the heck can that have been nearly two weeks ago
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10:35:27 <MizardX> What does the "$" operator do in Haskell?
10:35:45 <oklopol> it opens a (, but the ) is implicit
10:35:54 <oklopol> and at the end of the line
10:39:22 <fizzie> Alternatively, f $ x = f x, but the trick (if you can call it that) is in the precedence.
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12:57:54 <ehird> 123qw4e555t67gu89i932qw4e55t67
12:59:59 <ehird> 23:03:58 <madbr> how is oerjan pronounced
13:00:00 <ehird> what oerjan said, but basically "yohan". sort of
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14:09:04 <Deewiant> Is it actually "Oerjan" or "Ørjan"
14:09:39 <oklopol> assuming that's the empty set they use in norway
14:14:53 <oklopol> i guess it's "sort of" yohan though.
14:16:06 <oklopol> if "yerhan" is pronounced like "gran", then actually oerjan is sort of that, if you move the "j" sounds to the second syllable
14:18:03 <Deewiant> It's something like /jəʊhan/ vs /øːɾjan/
14:18:18 <ehird> well, i couldn't think of a good way to articulate it, i can't even pronounce it properly
14:18:32 <Deewiant> oklopol: Because, see, "yerhan" isn't pronounced at all like "göran". :-P
14:18:49 <Deewiant> Or at least, I'm finding it difficult to imagine anybody who would pronounce it like "göran".
14:20:20 <ehird> 90KiB/s with 3G internet, woop woop
14:22:06 <ehird> Admittedly by the time it's downloaded I won't need it
14:22:38 <oklopol> Deewiant: i can't see those characters correctly
14:22:52 <ehird> set your client to utf-8
14:22:55 <oklopol> i can imagine someone could leave the "h" out
14:22:56 <ehird> you're not sending as utf-8 either
14:22:58 <oklopol> ehird: already is, just doesn't work
14:23:16 <ehird> [14:16] oklopol: if "yerhan" is pronounced like "göran", then actually oerjan is sort of that, if you move the "j" sounds to the second syllable (incompatible encoding)
14:23:21 <ehird> so is your utf-8 setting "not utf-8" :D
14:23:26 <ehird> that's some terrible client
14:23:30 <Deewiant> oklopol: Try the logs in your web browser, maybe it handles the fonts better.
14:23:37 <ehird> Deewiant: the logs corrupt utf-8
14:23:48 <ehird> Yeah, they send no encoding header
14:23:53 <ehird> Or the wrong one, at least
14:24:02 <oklopol> seems it's gone back to "Default", changed to "Display and encode", but at least the ones on the screen are still wrong
14:24:08 <Deewiant> Erm, sending no encoding header != corrupting
14:24:09 <ehird> Checked, they don't send an encoding header
14:24:11 <ehird> Doesn't work for me
14:24:16 <oklopol> i imagine they'd have changed if it worked.
14:24:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, having to guess == it's gonna break for a bunch of people
14:24:23 <Deewiant> Set the encoding manually in your browser, and it works.
14:24:27 <ehird> For instance, Safari users
14:24:32 <Deewiant> Firefox autodetects as UTF-8, evidently.
14:24:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, I don't think you can even set it manually with Safari :-)
14:24:49 <ehird> But the logs are the only time it ever guesses wrong for me.
14:25:01 <ehird> View → Text Encoding
14:25:19 <oklopol> at least now i see my it wrong myself too
14:25:37 <ehird> Best sentence ever
14:25:52 <ehird> Has anyone ever been far as decided want to do look more like? At least now I see my it wrong myself too.
14:26:02 <oklopol> nothing wrong with "my it"
14:26:27 <oklopol> although admittedly it was a typo
14:26:28 <ehird> well i suppose not, it is terribly ambiguous though :D
14:26:46 <oklopol> i didn't just say "it", which could refer to anything
14:26:55 <oklopol> i said *my it*, so you know exactly what i'm referring to
14:27:07 <oklopol> you know i mean my own ö's
14:27:10 <ehird> well it's anything that's yours
14:27:23 <ehird> also, I'd know you meant that if you said just "it" too
14:27:34 <oklopol> so still not completely unambiguous, just more unambiguous,.
14:27:52 <ehird> i never said completely, just terribly
14:28:13 <oklopol> your that was a stupid thing to say
14:28:42 <ehird> Your that's like my it. Stupider, though.
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14:29:45 <oklopol> SHUT UP YOU'RE YOUNGER THAN ME
14:29:55 <ehird> *YOUR IT'S YOUNGER
14:30:05 <ehird> "It" referring to my existence
14:30:58 <ehird> So's this sentence's it (which is your it (which is your mom's it)).
14:32:48 <ehird> *Your it and its silly brain's that
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14:55:41 <oerjan> <ehird> what oerjan said, but basically "yohan". sort of <-- sheesh. try that for the start of my last name, instead.
14:55:53 <ehird> i admitted it was a bad transcription
14:56:02 <ehird> of my failed pronunciation
14:59:02 <oerjan> <Deewiant> It's something like *unicode ipa containing a long vowel mark* <-- erm, no long vowel there
15:00:46 <oerjan> otherwise, i think that was correct
15:05:52 <ehird> http://twitter.com/zombocom
15:11:00 <oerjan> <ehird> Deewiant: the logs corrupt utf-8
15:11:23 <oerjan> i sometimes have to change encoding, but only occasionally when IE guesses wrongly
15:11:51 <ehird> i note how people never accuse you of not reading ahead before replying to the logs :)
15:12:14 <oerjan> it has happened i think...
15:13:18 <oerjan> or possibly i just accused myself.
15:13:27 <ehird> i get it a lot more, though
15:13:49 <oerjan> well you comment on the logs a lot more
15:14:57 <oerjan> <ehird> But the logs are the only time it ever guesses wrong for me.
15:15:43 <oerjan> i think that is because unicode is fairly rare, so it may not be used in the part the browser uses to guess. also there are those like oklopol who send another encoding
15:16:08 <ehird> I think it guesses with the whole page, not sure though
15:16:15 <ehird> of course the issue is twofoldl:
15:16:25 <ehird> (a) the log is valid in the coding is incorrectly guesses, and
15:16:27 <oerjan> as opposed to twofoldr
15:16:40 <ehird> (b) generally people who use utf-8 aren't incompetent idiots and send the header; so, it prefers the other encodings when guessing, I'd assume
15:16:50 <ehird> for instance the common Windows encoding is likely what it autodetects as
15:17:04 <ehird> the issue being that the header isn't under our control when we use utf-8, so yeah.
15:25:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, didn't notice you join
15:44:53 <ehird> oerjan: AnMaster: iwc!
15:44:56 <ehird> haha beat you both.
15:49:18 <ehird> what on earth is that face
15:49:52 <oerjan> just some eyes on the verge of rolling away
15:52:02 <ehird> http://old.imgur.com/xEPyn.png
15:52:04 <ehird> THIS IS WHAT YOU DO TO PEOPLE, OERJAN
15:52:11 <ehird> well okay admittedly you use IE 8, not 6
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15:52:30 <asiekierka> I need to implement Wireworld this time
15:52:51 <ehird> Bye-bye asiekierka
15:53:12 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the world ends: <ehird> Bye-bye asiekierka | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | This is about esoteric programming languages..
15:53:23 <oerjan> asiekierka: did you find out that thing about game of life?
15:53:33 <ehird> Yay, I get to change the topic again. Bye asiekierka
15:53:48 <asiekierka> and as it's for a server written in Perl of all languages
15:54:07 -!- ehird has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:54:11 <ehird> I don't recall the original topic, eh
15:54:11 <oerjan> asiekierka: in any case, for any two-dimensional CA you should be able to use the trick of only using a line (or maybe thin strip) of extra memory
15:54:30 <oerjan> should apply to wireworld as well
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15:55:16 <oklopol> "thin strip of extra memory" sounds interesting
15:56:01 <oerjan> oklopol: to change the field to the next generation, you only need to keep a little bit of duplication if you change one line at a time
15:56:02 <oklopol> not as interesting as the fact that inherent ambiguity of a context-free language is an undecidable property, but quite interesting still
15:57:08 <ehird> "Help me!" "Do this." "I'm too lazy; I'll do this other thing."
15:57:09 <oerjan> asiekierka: erm it's not exactly hard
15:57:11 <oklopol> oerjan: what if you look two lines behind?
15:57:23 <oerjan> oklopol: then you would need a trip with two lines...
15:58:02 <oerjan> oh. for 3d you would need a plane, obviously
15:58:07 <oklopol> oerjan: right you need one whole line of extra memory for one line look back
15:58:16 <oklopol> i thought you might get away with finite extra mem
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15:59:43 <oklopol> actually i think you still do, just always remember the relevant square from last round
16:00:26 <oklopol> err nah, you can't move it
16:01:02 <oklopol> okay, so i guess you do need O(n^(d-1)) memory
16:01:23 <oklopol> for d-dimensional, n*n*...*n
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16:10:16 <asiekierka> - i check the old block type (pre-processing)
16:10:49 <asiekierka> - if 1 "turn" has passed, turn self to wire
16:15:40 <asiekierka> Good news: It now looks like WireWorld
16:15:40 <asiekierka> Bad news: wire turns itself to tail for no reason
16:49:54 <asiekierka> did you do it without duplicate maps ONCE :D
16:54:32 <oklopol> i doubt i even ever wrote an intermediate version that manipulates it as a general CA, i had a linked list of electrons iirc
16:55:10 <oklopol> manipulates as a general CA meaning just having the bitmap and going pixel by pixel, checking what's wire and what's tail and so on
16:56:01 <oklopol> anyway, any decent programming language would let you express the algo with two maps, and compile it to code that just uses one.
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17:03:04 <oklopol> decent programming language? are you joking
17:05:54 <fax> "decent programming language" "hahahahaha"
17:07:24 <oklopol> hey fax you're on math, are you the guy who couldn't understand why e1 = e1*e2 = e2 proves identity elements are unique
17:07:35 <oklopol> and actually i just realized that was F
17:07:48 <oklopol> f is a hard character to remember
17:08:06 <fax> it's because inverses exist
17:08:31 <oerjan> actually it's true without inverses
17:08:47 <oklopol> yeah where did i use inverses
17:09:20 <oklopol> i used a = ae = ea for any identity e, and element a
17:09:47 <fax> h I was thinking of: given any x and a, x*a = a, then x is equal to the identity
17:09:50 <oerjan> it holds for monoids in general.
17:09:55 <oklopol> anyway there was like an hour long debate about that
17:10:37 <oerjan> if you have a semi-group with only one-sided inverses it's a bit more complicated iirc
17:10:47 <oklopol> fax: you mean if you can find any such a and x that xa = a, then x is the identity?
17:11:12 <oklopol> oerjan: then they're unique only if they are both inversesat the same time
17:11:20 <oklopol> but you know nothing about inverses that are just one kind
17:11:33 <oerjan> oklopol: um what are you commenting there
17:11:42 <oklopol> oerjan: if you have a semi-group with only one-sided inverses it's a bit more complicated iirc
17:12:15 <oklopol> then i'll just believe you there
17:12:38 <oerjan> if you have a left and a right identity, then they must be equal.
17:12:56 <oerjan> but you could have several of one kind as long as you have none of the other
17:13:15 <oklopol> you mean if there is such an element e that ea = a for all a, and some f such that af = a for all a
17:14:08 <oklopol> i was a bit hasty there, let's see
17:14:11 <fax> whats the best group
17:14:24 <oklopol> ea = a, so ef = f, af = a, so ef = e
17:14:34 <oklopol> that's a clear proof at least, right
17:14:38 <oerjan> not that i actually know much about it
17:16:18 <oerjan> yep i didn't say it was hard
17:16:37 <oklopol> but you did say "o?", i just wanted to make it clear
17:16:52 <oerjan> that was o? for the qod
17:17:25 <oklopol> i don't see my all of my typos nowadays.
17:17:34 <oerjan> LINGVA LATINA CORRECTA NECESSE EST
17:17:38 <oklopol> maybe i'm becoming a human :\
17:18:16 <fax> anyway what else is cool than gourps
17:18:58 <oklopol> fax: we aren't doing groups, just sets with rules.
17:19:31 <oerjan> universal algebra, that would be
17:19:44 <Deewiant> oerjan: "correcta" should be "correctus"
17:19:47 <oklopol> anyway say you have {e, f}, both left identities, ef = f, fe = e, ee = e, ff = f, no contradictions there
17:19:59 <oerjan> Deewiant: huh? isn't lingva feminine?
17:20:30 <fax> when you write {e, f} does that state that e and f are different?
17:20:57 <oerjan> otherwise, it should be latinus as well...
17:21:00 <fax> oklopol do you have associativity?
17:21:17 <oklopol> fax: seems that one has it, yes
17:21:45 <oerjan> and it definitely is latina
17:21:52 <oklopol> but no one said you can have two left identities if you have associativity, just that you can have two left identities :)
17:22:29 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lingua#Latin
17:22:32 <oklopol> even if he'd been wrong, it would've just been a joke, you know, complaining about grammar with a grammatic error.
17:22:53 <oklopol> fax: yes, a set can only contain an element once
17:23:11 <oerjan> Deewiant: perhaps it's the double adjective. it's not like i know idiomatic latin...
17:23:26 <Deewiant> Yeah, I was wondering about that myself.
17:23:28 <oklopol> you read a grammar ~20 years ago
17:25:51 <oklopol> fax: but umm automata are cool
17:26:23 <fax> isn't that group theory again?
17:27:08 <oklopol> well no not really, languages are a big part of it, but usually we just have subsets of the free monoid
17:27:13 <Deewiant> FWIW "correctus" is the perfect passive participle of "corrigere", not an adjective
17:27:28 <oerjan> participles are adjectives afaik
17:27:49 <Deewiant> No, not really, but they work pretty much like them. :-P
17:28:03 <Deewiant> It declines the same way and all so it's still "correcta".
17:28:23 <oklopol> fax: languages are when you have an alphabet (generators), and you take subsets of alphabet* (all possible strings of characters)
17:28:35 <oklopol> alphabet* is the free monoid
17:28:52 <oklopol> when concatenation is the operation (obviously)
17:29:21 <oklopol> but at least the stuff i've done is quite far from group theory
17:29:54 <oklopol> the point is you have automata and you take words, stuff them in those machines and see what happens
17:29:54 <oerjan> you don't usually have inverses with languages
17:30:34 <oklopol> semigroup is when you drop empty word
17:30:54 <oklopol> i remember because "semigroup" is so ridiculously much less than half of what a group is
17:32:04 <fax> what about the machines?
17:32:19 <oklopol> oerjan: anyway there has been research on automata over semirings
17:32:21 <oerjan> i for one welcome our new machine overlords
17:32:23 <oklopol> basically having the inverses
17:33:00 <oklopol> no idea what that actually entails, our course didn't actually talk about them
17:33:07 <oklopol> and i don't have much time for further research
17:33:22 <oklopol> fax: depends on the machine.
17:33:34 <oklopol> usually they have some sorta rules that govern what they do with given input
17:34:58 <oklopol> i wish our courses put more emphasis on all kinds of obscure shit
17:36:35 <oklopol> anyway i finished reading for one of my exams for tomorrow, should probably start working on the next one
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18:18:45 <oklopol> it's funny because asciikierka has no idea whether it's true
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18:32:04 <fax> asiekierka hello
18:33:47 <fax> what was it
18:34:45 <asiekierka> but here in poland we say that the exception proves the rule
18:35:46 <asiekierka> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Silly_Emplosions - i'm so implementing this esolang
18:36:02 <asiekierka> Actually it would be fun to implement an esolang on VHS tape
18:37:56 <fax> that coulb be cool
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18:59:54 <Gregor> # Array indices start at 0.5 (as a compromise between starting with 0 and starting with 1) // lawl
19:05:22 <oklopol> as if it wasn't obvious without the explanation
19:05:38 <oklopol> oh is that from asciikierka's?
19:06:51 <Sgeo> I remember reading some book on programming where the author claimed to suggest 0.5
19:07:54 <Sgeo> ooh, x = x is useful!
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19:26:51 <fax> unlet x \= x outide x
19:30:23 <oerjan> sublet x through x == x
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20:36:42 <ehird> (The p is the punctuation)
20:37:03 <ehird> having sex with a walrus
20:37:13 <oklopol> i thought we were listing pronouns
20:37:15 <ehird> um, disregard that!
20:37:52 <oerjan> certainly not, that walrus is a dangerous predator!
20:40:44 <oklopol> why don't you take a seat.
20:41:51 * oerjan watches as the chair collapses under the walrus
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20:50:31 <ehird> (I believe the original Japanese says "black")
20:50:40 <ehird> Thanks, Google Translate!
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21:51:56 <zzo38> You idiot! You've given yourself a magical hangover
21:59:04 <zzo38> I have read the document pointed by the previous log, about 40C18, although it is weird, it seems a bit interesting.
22:03:11 <zzo38> Context is: 09.10.17 18:07:07 <madbr>
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22:04:18 <AnMaster> "] closes an (, } closes [ and ) closes {. Strings start with ' and end with ", or they can start with " and end with ' for the interpreter to automatically convert them to leet."
22:04:42 <AnMaster> ( and ] matching looks like intervals
22:05:05 <zzo38> Ya. Some of these ideas of "Silly Emplosions" are I wrote myself, and some are take from others ideas
22:05:24 <ehird> Silly Emplosions is, well... silly.
22:06:05 <zzo38> Yes, that is what is supposed to be, obviously!
22:07:22 <ehird> All of them are doable, but "Large arrays are stored on VHS tapes." would be very, very hard to implement, and "Every variable should be immediately deallocated once the data stored in said variable has been read once." would make variables almost useless. "Any "if" statement requires at least 14,000 subconditions." would just make people generate code to avoid horrible verbosity.
22:08:54 <ehird> And the stylus one is rather meaningless.
22:08:57 <zzo38> Just because if statements requires 14000 subconditions, does not necessarily mean they have to be given explicitly, I guess. You could have syntax to make it automatically, like, with preprocessor macros or something.
22:09:08 <zzo38> Yes I know the stylus one is meaningless
22:09:26 <ehird> (Oh, and having to compile yourself would be difficult to the max; I'd just end up calling the compiler, probably)
22:09:33 <ehird> (Assuming it can call other programs.)
22:09:58 <zzo38> VHS tapes would be very hard to implemented it with that, but you could build a VHS emulator too, I guess.
22:10:14 <zzo38> These ideas are just random ideas from various people (including myself)
22:12:39 <zzo38> My brother told me about when he went to someone's house to play D&D, the DM was very bad at it. He didn't know the rules for the game and said things which were wrong, the campaign consisted almost completely of one fighting after the previous, and kept putting invisible magical barriers everywhere when a player tried to do something that wasn't in the campaign setting (which he wrote himself)
22:13:46 <zzo38> Is "asiekierka" the same guy as on MegaZeux? Is "madbrain"?
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22:45:10 <ehird> Asie does that sort of stuff, I believe.
22:45:17 <ehird> Madbrain is a rather common-seeming nick, though.
22:45:44 <Sgeo> "Sgeo" is surprisingly not rare
22:46:23 <Sgeo> Not me: http://twitter.com/sgeo
22:46:29 <Sgeo> Also not me: http://sgeo.deviantart.com/
22:49:44 <ehird> I'm the only ehird on the internet, which is both a curse and a blessing.
22:50:38 <Sgeo> How is it a curse?
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22:55:46 <ehird> Sgeo: because I, like anyone else who hasn't entered a state of stasis, consider my past self a complete idiot
22:55:53 <ehird> and the interwebs never forget
22:56:34 <Sgeo> I'd say that most of my past self idiocy was real-world
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06:00:50 <zzo38> When playing crap, one guy biased one of the dice to be fixed at 5 (no other numbers may be rolled). Now, you have the chance to bias the other dice using whatever probabilities you want (within range, of course). What allotment of probabilities for the second dice would make the smallest probability of winning? (assuming the first dice is fixed at 5)
06:03:08 <oerjan> (1) I don't know crap (2) Do your own homework
06:04:45 <zzo38> In case you don't know the rule of crap, here it is: You roll two dice. If the first roll makes a total of 7 or 11, you immediately win, if the first roll is 2 or 3 or 12, you immedately lose, otherwise you continue until you get the same total as at first, in which case you win, or a total of 7, in which case you lose.
06:05:08 <zzo38> It isn't my homework. I have tried it myself, but I want to see if anyone else has anything to say, too.
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06:13:18 <oerjan> hm you cannot lose at first throw with a fixed 5
06:16:50 <oerjan> 2 and 6 on the second die are special. the rest should obviously be uniform to minimize the chance of repeating them.
06:21:07 <oerjan> 6 after the first just gives a reroll and so is ignored. thus probability of 6 should be 0 to avoid an immediate win.
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06:32:25 <oerjan> p2 + (1 - p2)*(sum_{n=1,3,4,5} pn/(p2+pn))
06:34:42 <oerjan> p2 + (1 - p2)*(sum_{n=1,3,4,5} pn^2/(p2+pn))
06:35:17 <oerjan> p2 + sum_{n=1,3,4,5} pn^2/(p2+pn)
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08:43:22 <ais523> wow, complete spam which is presumably some sort of 419: "I am Mrs. Claire Page sending you a letter from my sickbed in the hospital. Please contact my lawyer (Bar.curtisparkinson@bentegy.com)right away for an urgent matter. God bless."
08:43:46 <ais523> (I don't see anything wrong with posting that email publicly, spammers deserve to get more spam...)
08:52:41 <fizzie> I got this particular rather different spam in three or four email addresses: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/759752-really-weird-spam-wants-wood-stove.html
08:53:02 <fizzie> (The forum is completely random, I just googled for the spam text since I deleted my copies already.)
08:54:17 <fizzie> (It wasn't completely identical to that, though, because I remember the price of the "portable wood stove" being mentioned.)
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09:27:04 <ais523> this is probably old news, but: apparently when RMS wants to read a web page, he emails a daemon that wgets it and emails him back with the resulting page
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11:06:44 <oklopol> i got a question wrong at the automata exam, someone kill me
11:06:55 <oklopol> fucking trivial rookie mistake
11:17:53 <ais523> the occasional mistake isn't /that/ bad...
11:22:09 <oklopol> but what if i have four more mistakes like it in this midterm, and the other one together, and not get a 5/5
11:22:22 <oklopol> i would probably get a stroke
11:22:46 <oklopol> WHAT IF ALL MATHEMATICS IS WRONG, WHAT IF EVERYONE MADE A MISTAKE
12:16:17 <ais523> <Ubuntu updates> "Disable DST switch for Argentina tomorrow, as the Argentia government decided yesterday. Careful planning is boring."
12:16:28 * ais523 wonders how quickly the other OSes will get that particular bit of political information...
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12:31:12 <lifthrasiir> ais523: is that change postponed? (iirc from tz list)
12:31:26 <ais523> I'm not sure of the details
12:31:39 <ais523> presumably if you really cared about argentinian daylight-saving you could read the patch
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12:32:43 <lifthrasiir> "As this paper news (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=1187055 <http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=1187055>) that Arnaldo just sent to the list, confirms, there will be no DST change in Argentina this weekend (although the Decree wasn't published in time)."
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13:09:15 * oerjan swats oklopol to death per request -----###
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15:10:42 <oerjan> read it hours ago. barely.
15:11:19 <oerjan> these things are *important*
15:52:30 <AnMaster> ais523, you remember that course length issue you ran into?
15:53:40 <AnMaster> I suspect I ran into similar administrative issues, Not about length but about what course I'm registered to currently. And how long I have been studying. Sigh...
15:55:53 <oklopol> if this is a university story, i'm going to need you to elaborate
15:56:06 <oklopol> i am a keen university boy.
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16:02:39 <eurythmia> I'm pretty sure that the set of all regular expressions over a given alphabet is a context-free language, but I'm not 100% sure ... is this the case?
16:04:07 <oklopol> eurythmia: of course it is
16:04:41 <eurythmia> oklopol, awesome. For my benefit, could you please give me a clue as to why it is not a regular language?
16:05:03 <oklopol> just have like S -> (S) | S + S | S* | terminal (ambiguous)
16:06:47 <oklopol> you'll get things like S => SS => SS + S, so this is not actually a grammar you'd use to parse regexps because the tree doesn't represent the correct precedence, but should generate the correct stuff
16:08:00 <eurythmia> oklopol, yeah, I was just trying to decide whether to draw an FSA or a PDA to deal with the language ... I started using a PDA because I couldn't figure out how to effectively match parentheses with an FSA, but I'd have hated to get so far all for naught ;)
16:09:30 <oklopol> "doesn't represent the correct precedence", well hopefully i don't need to explain what that means, basically you'd usually want to think of the tree representing S => SS => SS + S as meaning S(S + S), basically with that grammar you need a separate step to get the correct precedences
16:09:55 <oklopol> yeah FSA can't match parens
16:10:15 <oerjan> easy to prove with the pumping lemma
16:10:16 <oklopol> think about (^n )^n, and pump ('s
16:10:28 <eurythmia> oklopol, well, not a deterministic FSA, anyways ;)
16:10:41 <oklopol> eurythmia: deterministic and nondeterministic FSA are exactly as strong
16:10:47 <oklopol> good, was faster than oerjan
16:11:02 <eurythmia> oerjan, hm ... I can't remember the pumping lemma ... guess I'll have to wikipedia that.
16:11:11 <oklopol> eurythmia: so they can't be matched by nondeterministic FSA either
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16:11:30 <oerjan> there's one pumping lemma for FSAs and one for CS langs
16:13:05 <oerjan> also, to get the precedence right you just have to separate S into a number of different nonterminals
16:13:21 <oerjan> (one for each precedence level)
16:13:26 <oklopol> eurythmia: also if you're a human, it will probably be enough of a convincer to know a finite state automaton only remembers a finite amount of data, and matching an arbitrary amount of parens can clearly require any amount of memory, because you need to remember an arbitrary integer.
16:14:48 <oklopol> oerjan also did you hear i failed on my automata exam
16:14:57 <oklopol> that's kinda important to know
16:15:06 <oerjan> * oerjan swats oklopol to death per request -----###
16:15:07 <oklopol> i suppose you already swatted me for it
16:15:26 <eurythmia> hm. Well ... looks like I've got some studying to do for my compiler exam on friday :P
16:15:33 <oklopol> just rechecking, in case you didn't read *why* you wanted me to swat me to death
16:16:18 <oklopol> i bet for most compiler courses you could just say what i said about finite memory.
16:16:20 <AnMaster> <oklopol> if this is a university story, i'm going to need you to elaborate <-- yes it is I guess. But I don't know yet. Things are extremely confused.
16:17:17 <AnMaster> Don't miss the next episode of this horror drama. Aired tomorrow (hopefully)
16:17:21 <eurythmia> oklopol, I'll keep that in mind for anything we do regarding parens ;)
16:17:39 <oerjan> no mention of CS langs on wp's pumping lemma page
16:17:54 <AnMaster> <oklopol> eurythmia: of course it is <-- even with lookahead/behind and backreferences?
16:18:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, perl regular expressions has those. So does re in python
16:18:26 <oklopol> we're talking the grammar of regexps
16:19:05 <eurythmia> AnMaster, yeah ... I'm not actually parsing REs ... just recognising whether or not they belong to a language :)
16:19:14 <oklopol> lookahead/-behind sounds CS
16:19:15 <oerjan> back references sound like they would make things hard to make CF
16:20:19 <AnMaster> would match "grep" that is *not* preceded by "pcre"
16:20:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, there is "is preceded" too.
16:21:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, back reference is like: (foo|bar)\1 would match foofoo barbar but not foobar or barfoo
16:21:24 <oklopol> that doesn't sounds like CS either, does it?
16:21:25 <AnMaster> that is, refer to what a previous () "captured"
16:21:52 <oklopol> also i guess even the syntax isn't CF anymore, if those can't have errors, guess that's what oerjan meant
16:21:52 <oerjan> i don't think lookahead/behind actually makes regexps more powerful afa what languages they can recognize...
16:22:02 <fax> oklopol perl -wle 'print "Prime" if (1 x shift) !~ /^1?$|^(11+?)\1+$/'
16:22:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, (?<=pcre)grep would match grep if preceded by pcre. But the string "pcre" is not part of the match itself
16:22:37 <oerjan> i wasn't even thinking about that
16:22:42 <AnMaster> that is, same but after string instead of before it
16:23:19 <AnMaster> <oerjan> i wasn't even thinking about that <-- about what? backrefereces?
16:23:57 <AnMaster> fax, hm I fail to parse the perl bit of that (though the regex bit I understand).
16:24:00 <oerjan> it's pretty clear to me that l.a./b. can simply be implemented using a FSA if its contents are regular
16:24:52 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: RE syntax is context-free if you don't use back references.
16:24:53 <oerjan> or, hm, they would have to start from opposite sides. but you still could fold it in i thinkø.
16:25:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about lookbehind though?
16:25:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, are you saying it is still CF with lookaheads and lookbehinds?
16:25:34 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: does look-behind syntax force certain semantic restrictions?
16:25:35 <oerjan> oklopol: goddammit can't i abbreviate the terms we used 30 seconds ago without explaining? :D
16:25:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what ones are you thinking about?
16:26:03 <oklopol> oerjan: too much talk, my brain gets confused.
16:26:20 <lifthrasiir> a set of _RE_, not a language (aka a set of strings) represented with given RE.
16:26:24 <AnMaster> some implementations restrict look-behind to be fixed length. But not all ones.
16:26:25 <oklopol> (i did decrypt it just after asking)
16:27:56 <lifthrasiir> but i think perl starts to support unlimited look-behind... right?
16:28:24 <AnMaster> as I said, I work with PCRE. not perl :P
16:28:44 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure that the regex stuff in .NET has variable length lookbehind at least.
16:29:13 <lifthrasiir> .NET regex has some strange features, like run-time capture removal etc.
16:29:31 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, possibly. I haven't actually used them. Just read about it.
16:29:35 <lifthrasiir> (practically this is equivalent to recursive RE call though)
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16:29:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, PCRE allows stuff like (foo|baaar) in lookbehind at least
16:30:34 <AnMaster> some googling suggest java allows finite repetition (but not infinite like + or *)
16:31:14 <lifthrasiir> you mean, {num} in look-behind is permitted?
16:31:25 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, or ? or {num,num}
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16:31:59 <AnMaster> see http://www.regular-expressions.info/lookaround.html but it seems slightly outdated
16:32:09 <AnMaster> section "Important Notes About Lookbehind"
16:32:27 <lifthrasiir> hmm... everything is fun when the exam is coming. :p (i have that one within next 16 hrs)
16:32:36 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> .NET regex has some strange features, like run-time capture removal etc. <-- what does that actually mean btw?
16:34:16 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: something like the direction that "removes alerady-existing capture if we reached this point".
16:34:19 <oklopol> i have number theory on thursday, should probably close irc, clearly it was irc's fault that i made an error in today's one.
16:34:38 <oklopol> why don't you stop talking about regexps
16:34:57 <oklopol> and get working on your usual OS/compiler garble :P
16:35:00 <AnMaster> in perl you can embed perl code inside regexes iirc
16:35:25 <lifthrasiir> oklopol: are you sure that is usual ever? :p
16:35:51 <oklopol> yeah the automata theory lecturer said smth like "if you've used perl, you've probably bumped into CS languages", probably some time since he programmed his last perl :D
16:36:13 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: well i dunno what they talk about, but something i can't parse anyway
16:36:21 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hm pcre has this (not sure what it does actually):
16:36:22 <AnMaster> (?|...) non-capturing group; reset group numbers for
16:36:22 <AnMaster> capturing groups in each alternative
16:36:39 <AnMaster> (?>...) atomic, non-capturing group
16:36:43 <oklopol> i just do pure and simple stuff.
16:36:48 <AnMaster> and not sure what the diff is between those to
16:37:05 <AnMaster> ooh cool: (?#....) comment (not nestable)
16:37:30 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: not that. pcre one just renumbers the group number, so (?| ... (...) ... \1 ... ) would work correctly no matter where it is
16:37:37 <AnMaster> and doing (?i) makes the regex matching case insensitive until changed back
16:37:48 <lifthrasiir> and see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/az24scfc.aspx and search for "balancing group" for what i said.
16:38:04 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: do you remember the original numbering once out of the nesting?
16:38:33 <AnMaster> \g{-n} relative reference by number
16:38:37 <lifthrasiir> iirc it would be treated as like the whole (?|...) is omitted
16:38:40 <oklopol> like does (?| ... (...) ... \1 ...) start a subnumbering, and once out of that thingie, numbers return to normal
16:39:11 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: just for convenience? as i said i'm not sure about them. :p
16:39:12 <AnMaster> (?n) call subpattern by absolute number
16:39:28 <oerjan> oklopol: it said it was a non-capturing group so it must be
16:39:41 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah i didn't realize what non-capturing meant right awya
16:39:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about calling previous sub-patterns like it was a subroutine?
16:40:02 <AnMaster> (?(condition)yes-pattern|no-pattern)
16:40:03 <oklopol> (i'm not that great at guessing based on names)
16:40:22 <AnMaster> (?(Rn)... specific group recursion condition
16:40:22 <AnMaster> (?(R&name)... specific recursion condition
16:40:22 <AnMaster> (?(DEFINE)... define subpattern for reference
16:40:22 <AnMaster> (?(assert)... assertion condition
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16:40:42 <AnMaster> (*ACCEPT) force successful match
16:40:42 <AnMaster> (*FAIL) force backtrack; synonym (*F)
16:40:54 <AnMaster> there is more back track control too
16:41:10 <oklopol> but kinda beautiful at the same time.
16:41:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, agreed. BUT IS IT TC?
16:41:42 <oklopol> that is easily settled if you can execute arbitrary code in (condition)
16:41:42 <AnMaster> I seriously suspect it may be. This sounds like something that oerjan should prove/disprove
16:41:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, not as far as I know. It isn't perl
16:42:16 * oerjan suggests googling since someone almost certainly has thought of it
16:43:01 <oklopol> turns out i don't have to submit the first piece of my bachelor's thesis for a grammar check sort of thing tomorrow
16:43:07 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i think it would be, with unlimited look-behind and subpatterns
16:43:17 <oklopol> this means i'm probably going to waste the few days i could've worked on it before next courses start :|
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16:43:36 <oklopol> (have to submit in a week)
16:43:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well the recursion stuff too
16:44:16 <lifthrasiir> is there any RE engine that doesn't support conditions while supporting other features? :p
16:44:31 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that is a PCRE replacement for perl's (?{})
16:44:33 <AnMaster> possibly calling a function in the host language?
16:44:58 <AnMaster> yeah pcre docs are split in several man pages
16:45:14 <AnMaster> only other example I can think of is zsh.
16:45:46 <lifthrasiir> anyway, one can define subpatterns as like (?<patternname> (?<=context) (?subpattern) (?subpattern) ... (?=context) ) and you're done
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16:46:30 <eurythmia> heh, I'm glad that I was able to spark such a deep and meaningful conversation on regular expressions :P
16:47:17 <AnMaster> eurythmia, does this affect your original question though?
16:47:38 <AnMaster> or was that about the grammar for regexes themselves?
16:48:13 <eurythmia> AnMaster, nope ... my question was whether the language was classified as regular or context free ... I've already finished drawing up the PDA for it :P
16:48:38 <AnMaster> eurythmia, it certainly isn't context free with back references I guess
16:49:36 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure about "option flags" like foo(?i)bar(?-i)quux (would match "foobarquux" and "fooBaRquux" but not "foOBarquux" for example)
16:50:11 <eurythmia> AnMaster, that's probably a fair assumption ... my PDA only has 3 states and 20 transitions.
16:50:14 <AnMaster> also I don't even want to think about how those option flags works when inside a group
16:50:32 <eurythmia> so, relatively speaking, it's pretty simple.
16:50:46 <AnMaster> possibly it might be case sensitive or case insensitive depending on if a previous group matched or not
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16:55:22 <AnMaster> oh it seems that setting case sensitive/insensitive inside a group only affects that group
16:55:50 <AnMaster> however it affects all branches of said group
16:55:52 <eurythmia> my alphabet is pretty simple too: A={a,b} ;)
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16:59:46 <fax> oh hey does anyone know a term in combinatory logic T(X) such that, T(S) --> S, T(K) --> K, T(S) --> Y, T(K) --> Y?
16:59:55 <fax> --> meaning there is some reduction sequence to
17:00:14 <oerjan> fax: um you are contradicting yourself there
17:00:23 <fax> oerjan well I'm thinking church rosser property of lambda calculus makes it impossible
17:00:52 <oerjan> there is a church rosser for combinatory logic too iirc
17:01:18 <oerjan> and yes, if that's what you mean
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17:02:03 <fax> is ~(S = K) and axiom?
17:02:24 <oerjan> without it you get forall x=y pretty easily
17:02:43 <fax> without what?
17:03:02 <oerjan> sheesh. if S = K, then everything is equal to everything
17:04:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, if you mean ∀ then write it
17:04:54 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
17:05:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, you confused me by using weird syntax!
17:05:43 <oerjan> i REFUSE to use your cursed unicode DAMMIT :D
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17:06:10 <oerjan> also, i just see a question mark
17:06:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean ∃x(RefusesToUseUnicode(x))
17:07:18 <oerjan> font, utf-8, everything in a long chain from irssi back to putty
17:08:51 <AnMaster> what parts can you read of that
17:09:12 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, yay for ?? = |N|
17:09:35 <AnMaster> as in, the Aleph symbol followed by subscript 0
17:09:49 <oerjan> i can see that in the logs
17:09:49 <AnMaster> and that N should be blackboard bold
17:10:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about: ±n = -1(∓n)
17:11:10 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, what about: ±n = -1(?n)
17:11:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, that was - above plus in the second one
17:12:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: i can see iso-8859-1 and nothing else.
17:13:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, seriously fix your setup
17:13:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does the command locale output on the server you are sshing to?
17:14:00 <AnMaster> the variable values should all end with .UTF-8
17:14:14 <AnMaster> if not, export those in your .bashrc, .profile or similar
17:14:15 <oklopol> irc stuff works as uninteresting talk
17:14:26 * AnMaster has no clue what shell oerjan uses
17:14:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, I know you are just joking
17:14:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: and you will never know because i am tired of this discussion.
17:15:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait, you aren't ehird. You must always be joking when angry. Fundamental law of the universe
17:16:21 <oklopol> he can't be angry, but he can be tired of discussions
17:17:07 * AnMaster makes a mental note to always use as much unicode notation when talking to oerjan as possible
17:17:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, that one wasn't even very good
17:18:26 <oklopol> grrrrr why didn't my parents force me to learn math when i was young
17:18:35 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
17:18:35 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
17:18:53 <oklopol> that's ackermann, i notice the shape.
17:19:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes. But see the unicode case thingy
17:19:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, your client fails too
17:19:53 <AnMaster> fax, eurythmia, lifthrasiir: surely you can see this?
17:20:05 <AnMaster> at least I expect lifthrasiir to be able to
17:20:13 <oklopol> i've told countless times my nnscript refuses to show unicode correctly.
17:20:14 <Deewiant> I see a 1px or so space between the lines
17:20:22 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: curly braces are too large, but others are fine
17:20:36 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how large in what way?
17:20:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: the few others i've tried have been even more annoying
17:20:58 <fax> AnMaster fail
17:21:12 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: twice large as ordinary letters (and as consequence line height are tripled or even quadrupled)
17:21:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, eeh. What is that font
17:21:27 <oklopol> Deewiant: mirc doesn't let me paste multiple lines without excess flooding
17:21:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, in Dejvavu Sans Mono they look perfect
17:21:50 <oklopol> also nnscript is prettier by default, but i suppose you would consider that even less important
17:22:26 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, don't have it myself as far as I can see. So no clue
17:22:31 <AnMaster> isn't it some windows only font?
17:22:53 <AnMaster> which raises the question: why the hell windows?
17:22:53 <lifthrasiir> originated from windows, but i think there is some corefont package for them
17:23:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, actually it might be that your font render thingy is substituting from some other font
17:24:07 <lifthrasiir> that's possible, but then i don't know what the alternative font is
17:24:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, gucharmap, find symbol, set font to tahoma, right click the symbol, see what font it says in there
17:24:49 <AnMaster> I think it was in some "misc technical" block
17:25:46 <AnMaster> the upper/lower ones are close
17:26:04 <fax> AnMaster bad line spacin
17:26:15 <AnMaster> fax, hm? there is no unusual line spacing here
17:26:22 <lifthrasiir> it is clear that tahoma doesn't have such glyph
17:26:41 <lifthrasiir> fax: i have similar problem, what irc client are you using?
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17:27:32 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, fax: http://omploader.org/vMmtzYw is how it renders here
17:28:05 <AnMaster> (I'm using multiple clients on the bouncer)
17:28:26 <lifthrasiir> wait, my font was not Tahoma (sorry!) but some korean font, which obviously doesn't have glyphs for U+23A8 etc.
17:29:00 <AnMaster> Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty decent for irc. Not sure how good it is on Korean
17:29:14 <eurythmia> AnMaster, sorry, delayed response, but yeah, I can see it.
17:29:34 <AnMaster> odd that ± is sharp and crisp but ∓ is kind of blurry
17:29:38 <lifthrasiir> and korean glyphs in Code2000 etc. simply suck.
17:34:06 <fizzie> The ± ∓ thing is not so odd, given that those chars come from completely different blocks.
17:34:29 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: hmm, i don't know where the U+23A8 glyph originated... it is not in even Arial Unicode MS
17:34:30 <fizzie> ± is in latin-1, while for ∓ you need to go into the Unicode mathematical operator block.
17:35:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: What does the blockness have to do with how they display in a font?
17:35:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: It means that very many fonts might have ± since it's latin 1, while ∓ is rarer; so it's not very strange that they happen to come from different fonts to your screen.
17:37:05 <pikhq> Same glyphs on my screen. Hooray, Dejavu Sans Mono.
17:37:06 <fizzie> (Even if they happen to come from the same font, the glyphs might be made by different people / come from different sources / whatever; in any case, the point was that since the characters are so far away "logically", it's not strange that they display differently.)
17:37:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, Actually dejavu sans mono has it
17:37:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: In this case they're in the same font, though.
17:37:23 <AnMaster> and yes I use dejavu sans mono
17:37:34 <Deewiant> I guess that it could just be because they're from different people
17:37:59 <pikhq> On my screen, one is merely the translation of the other. Granted, it's 9 point font.
17:38:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Your hinting sucks?
17:38:39 <Deewiant> Or it just looks like it because of the blurriness
17:38:53 <Deewiant> As I stare at it it shifts between symmetric and asymmetric.
17:39:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, asymetrical left/right or up/down?
17:39:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nop. Though the + is wider than it is tall
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17:39:41 <Deewiant> On occasion it looks like the | is more left than it should be
17:39:50 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> As I stare at it it shifts between symmetric and asymmetric. <-- hit that auto button on your TFT front panel RIGHT NOW!
17:40:15 <Deewiant> It popped up "Digital video input no access"
17:42:54 <fizzie> Actually, I might be wrong; maybe it's just some strange rendering issue. I looked at both glyphs (in DejaVu Sans Mono) in fontforge, and they really should be just vertical mirrors of each other; relative distances between the points seem to be the same there.
17:42:59 <Deewiant> http://iki.fi/deewiant/tmp/pm.png zoom in to see the difference
17:46:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: DejaVu glyphs: http://zem.fi/~fis/pm.png
17:47:05 <Deewiant> Aye, the problem is in rendering
17:49:29 <fizzie> I guess it could be; Deewiant's pm.png looks a bit like the ∓ would just be not perfectly aligned with the screen pixels, causing those antialiasing artifacts there.
17:50:16 <fizzie> FWIW, they look pretty identical (except the flip) here, as closely as I can make out.
17:51:35 <fizzie> Zooming in actually shows some antialiasing in *both*, so my font rendering sucks the most out of these.
17:56:22 <fax> can you prove that I = SKK doesn't equal S (or K)?
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17:59:36 <pikhq> SKK = \x->SKKx = \x->kx(kx) = \x->x
17:59:52 <pikhq> \x-> /= S & \x->x /= K.
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18:01:00 <ais523> wow: Darl McBride was sacked
18:01:12 <ais523> well, technically speaking, made redundant
18:01:17 <fax> How do you know F = \x -> Fx ?
18:01:29 <ais523> although it's pretty rare for a company to eliminate the position of CEO
18:01:29 <fax> is that an axiom or theorem?
18:01:33 <ais523> I didn't even realise that was possible...
18:01:50 <ais523> fax: definition of \, pretty much
18:02:15 <fax> hum I don't think I undertsand
18:03:01 <pikhq> It's called "currying".
18:03:56 <fax> what's the definition of \?
18:04:47 <ais523> cancel the ys, and you get (\x->f x) = f
18:04:56 <FireFly> [18:18:34] <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
18:04:59 <fax> yes I agree with that but just because A y = B y doesn't mean that A = B or does it?
18:05:00 <ais523> and currying basically says that you're allowed to do that
18:05:05 <FireFly> I assume that thingy was supposed to be an integral sign?
18:05:16 <FireFly> (after checking the first char in uh.. kate)
18:05:16 <ais523> A y = B y doesn't necessarily imply A = B
18:05:20 <ais523> it does if it's true for all y, though
18:05:46 <pikhq> fax: A y = B y for all y does.
18:05:46 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> It popped up "Digital video input no access" <-- ah DVI
18:05:46 <AnMaster> well then, odd it changes as you described
18:05:49 <fax> so it that called currying? A y = B y -> A = B
18:06:24 <pikhq> No, currying says that \x->f x == f.
18:06:24 <fax> (forall y, A y = B y) -> A = B
18:06:37 <fax> I thought that was eta conversion
18:07:04 <AnMaster> <ais523> wow: Darl McBride was sacked <-- hmmm... SCO?
18:07:13 <fax> what's the proof of (forall y, A y = B y) -> A = B?
18:07:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not that odd; Deewiant probably still doesn't have digital eyes, old-fashioned person that he is.
18:07:44 <ais523> one of the commenters at Groklaw seems to think that his next step will be an attempted hostile takeover of SCO
18:07:48 <ais523> which would be hilarious, IMO
18:07:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have analogue monitor cable *and* eyes
18:07:55 <fax> all I know about = is that it's the smallest reflexive, symmetric, transitive relation
18:07:58 <fax> is that enough?
18:08:10 <fax> I guess "the smallest" is the important thing here
18:08:21 <fax> what more could I say about =?
18:08:28 <ais523> well, when are two functions the same?
18:08:37 <ais523> you've defined = in terms of reflexiveness
18:08:43 <ais523> and reflexiveness is defined in terms of =
18:08:47 <ais523> so this isn't really getting anywhere
18:09:06 <fax> I'm looking for nonstandard models of SK calculusu
18:09:32 <fax> so I can add as an axiom, the rule of right cancellation
18:10:19 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, why is reflexiveness defined in terms of =?
18:10:40 <ais523> AnMaster: an operator is reflexive if it means that A o A for all A
18:10:52 <ais523> in other words, it's reflexive if it's true whenever the left and right are equal
18:11:28 <AnMaster> if so, why not use the proper notation? ;P
18:11:48 <ais523> AnMaster: because I can't easily type ∘ in a hurry?
18:12:09 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I still have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols open after talking to oerjan above :P
18:14:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds).
18:18:48 <oerjan> fax: what do you mean by rule of right cancellation? that (forall y, A y = B y) -> A = B thing?
18:19:17 <fax> oerjan: pikhq used it, I just wanted to make it formal
18:19:43 <oerjan> anyway as you said that follows from eta reduction in lambda calculus
18:19:48 <fax> I've not assumed that my model of SK axioms IS lambda calculus
18:19:49 <oerjan> assuming you have free variables
18:20:08 <oerjan> no, but lambda calculus _is_ a model of it...
18:20:19 <fax> is it the only model?
18:20:33 <oerjan> so it's obviously consistent to add the additional axioms that hold in it...
18:21:03 <fax> no that's not obvious
18:21:26 <fax> if I didn't have the axiom S <> K, then the trivial model applies, and that has the thoerem forall x y, x = y
18:21:50 <oerjan> but that axiom does not hold in lambda calculus...
18:22:46 <oerjan> lambda calculus _is_ a model of SK calculus
18:23:24 <oerjan> thus you have at least one model of SK calculus satisfying all theorems of lambda calculus. thus those theorems are consistent with SK calculus. Q.E.D.
18:23:26 <fax> the set with one element o and application operator \x y -> o, is also a model
18:23:39 <fax> that's why I added the axiom S <> K
18:24:25 <oerjan> i think there are lots of other models coming from those CPOs used in denotational semantics
18:26:21 <oerjan> in fact i vaguely recall something about those being used to prove you could model lambda calculus as something resembling actual set functions
18:26:34 <ais523> due to me going temporarily insane
18:26:41 <ais523> well, I hope it's temporary
18:26:46 <ais523> I'm waiting for my brain to cool again
18:27:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: World temporarily saved: ais523 no longer thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:27:39 <fax> what is feather
18:27:59 <ais523> put it this way: I've been here for several years now
18:28:07 <ais523> it takes a special brand of insanity to actually send me over the edge
18:28:18 <ais523> fax: please don't ask, it takes too long to explain and I don't want my head to explode again
18:28:43 <ais523> suffice it to say, that it's a) awesome, b) esolang-related, and c) vaporware, possibly forever so
18:30:34 <oklopol> so this openoffice i've been hearing so much about for the last day or 10 years or something
18:30:47 <oklopol> does it have some sorta equation editor in the default installation
18:31:56 <oklopol> i have no idea where the cd is for my office
18:32:20 <oklopol> and the only other things i know that can do math stuff are mathematica and that latex thing
18:32:44 <AnMaster> fax, quick description: a time travelling esolang involving rewriting the interpreter what interpreted you.
18:32:53 <fizzie> Misread "that latex lung"; it sounded like some sort of occupational-hazard disease.
18:33:21 <ais523> Feather has really messed-up causality, which is really frustrating my attempts to write an interp for it
18:33:22 <fizzie> "Ooh, I've got bad LaTeX lung from my days as a slave in the math mines of our university."
18:33:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, LaTeX is awesome though
18:33:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: but can i just pick it up on the fly?
18:33:58 <oklopol> i'm tempted to use something that just lets me press buttons with the correct looking math thingies.
18:34:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on how strong the back of the fly is I guess.
18:34:23 <oklopol> mine is a pretty common house fly, as you probably know
18:34:31 <oklopol> well, more like a retarded, lazy house fly
18:34:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, LyX then. Awesome WYSIWYG frontend for LaTeX
18:34:41 <fax> thanks AnMaster
18:34:46 <oklopol> but latex is something i'd *want to* learn, so probably i actually would learn it.
18:34:52 <ais523> the OO formula-generation thing basically has a WYSIWYG just-press-buttons in one pane
18:34:59 <ais523> and a LaTeX-like version in another
18:35:00 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah i guessed it was meant
18:35:02 <fax> I'm rubbish at this :/ how do I find combinator F such that F(K) = S, F(I) = K?
18:35:03 <fizzie> OpenOffice.org and insert/object/formula at least gave me a formula editor.
18:35:05 <fax> or vice versa
18:35:05 <ais523> and they both update whenever you change either
18:35:52 <ais523> AnMaster: it's probably a subset of LaTeX
18:36:05 <ais523> maybe with a few extra commands thrown in
18:36:11 <AnMaster> ais523, surprised it doesn't use MathML instead or such
18:36:19 <ais523> AnMaster: that's the format it saves in, IIRC
18:36:23 <fizzie> Ohh, right, it had that fancy thing. It also displays (at least here) inverse question marks in the "rendered output" thing occasionally, when there's an incomplete structure.
18:36:23 <ais523> as opposed to the format you edit in
18:36:42 <ais523> fizzie: yes, to me too
18:37:07 <AnMaster> LaTeX usually just renders empty instead iirc
18:37:41 <oerjan> fax: it's easier to start with F(K) and F(KI)
18:37:46 <ais523> but then the empty wouldn't be clickable
18:38:02 <ais523> k and ki are amazingly good logic levels for Unlambda, though
18:38:41 <AnMaster> <oerjan> fax: it's easier to start with F(K) and F(KI)
18:38:41 <AnMaster> <ais523> but then the empty wouldn't be clickable
18:38:41 <ais523> hmm... I generally use i and ki
18:38:46 <AnMaster> before I noticed not same person
18:38:56 <fax> oerjan well how does that apply?
18:39:01 <fax> I don't see the link
18:39:09 <AnMaster> ais523, oerjan: stop having nicks of same length :P
18:39:41 <oerjan> fax: F = \b -> b x y gives something that is F(K) = x, F(KI) = y
18:40:09 <ais523> <fax> does f(x) = ((xi)(s))(((xi)(ki))(k)) work?
18:40:14 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure I've got that one right, though...
18:40:34 <fizzie> That OOo syntax is only very vaguely LaTeX-like; for example, \over{x}{y} is "{x} over {y}", and "\sum_{i=1}^n 42" is in fact "sum from{i=1} to{n} 42".
18:40:35 <ais523> I was trying to compile from the Underlambda in my head
18:40:59 <ais523> fizzie: I think there were LaTeXy and less LaTeXy synonyms for most operations
18:41:12 <fizzie> Probably; those were what came out of the buttons.
18:41:20 <fax> ais523 it reduces to SI = K
18:41:33 <fax> I mean, f(I) = f(K) reduces to that
18:42:15 <ais523> ugh, I know what I did
18:42:22 <fax> hmm I think I can do ti from there perhaps
18:42:24 <ais523> I applied rather than composed...
18:42:32 <fax> because SIxy = y(xy) and Kxy = x
18:42:52 <fax> so if I produce let y = KK and x = S
18:44:04 <fax> no I made a mistake :/
18:44:36 <oerjan> fax: KKIxy = Kxy = x, IKIxy = KIxy = y
18:45:23 <oklopol> KABCD = ACD, IABCD = ABCD, so ACD = S, ABCD = K; guess A = K => KCD = S => C = S; KBSD = K => BD = K => B = I, D = K, so, apply KISK to your combinator
18:47:26 <oklopol> assuming i'm not failing miserably at combinatory logic, that should be a straightforward derivation of a working combinator, assuming you know how to apply stuff to the param
18:48:01 <oerjan> fax: so F = \b -> b K I x y gives you F(K) = x, F(I) = y
18:48:02 <oklopol> actually is that exactly what oerjan is trying to hint at
18:48:29 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't know if yours is the same
18:48:49 <oklopol> mine is the exact same, just not for general x, y
18:49:01 <oklopol> you apply KIxy to the combinator, i apply KISK
18:49:38 <oklopol> but my point is mostly you can just apply general stuff, and solve, that way.
18:49:45 <oerjan> well i went by K and KI as i noted above
18:49:56 <oklopol> well i didn't read your derivation, maybe i should now
18:52:05 <oklopol> okay so you find a way to differentiate between K and KI, then find a way to get those outta I and K, which turns out to be trivial
18:53:27 <fax> that's cool, that proof that I <> K doesn't use 'curry'
18:53:28 <oerjan> K and KI are as implied the "obvious" way to implement booleans in lambda calculus/combinators/unlambda
18:54:19 <oerjan> (although unlambda uses I and V in places just to be horrible :D)
18:54:27 <fax> okay so hypothetically..
18:54:39 <fax> I could probably produce a sequence of combinators, all distinct
18:54:46 <oklopol> i don't think i ever really made sense of how C/V/I booleans work
18:55:01 <fax> (N = {0, 1, 2, ...} with a proof x y in N, x <> y)
18:55:29 <fax> and this would let me make a bijection between that sequence and the sequence of natural numbers
18:55:46 <oerjan> oklopol: the wicked part is that you _need_ C in order to do anything useful with V
18:55:52 <oklopol> bijection? try isomorphism!
18:56:00 <fax> what's the difference?
18:56:21 <oklopol> for a bijection you just need to find some combinator for each natural number
18:56:30 <oklopol> for isomorphism you have to have some sorta addition
18:56:31 <fax> :| I was going to say that then could I find a term like inf = suc inf such that size inf = 1 + size inf but that's not possible by church rosser
18:57:08 <oerjan> fax: it will just be non-terminating...
18:57:32 <oerjan> you always have fixpoints
18:58:25 <fax> I want to try and produce a contradiction from the non-terminating term
18:59:11 <oerjan> well size inf = 1 + size inf is pretty much the definition of an infinite cardinality in set theory :)
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18:59:54 <oerjan> "size" being defined by existence of bijections
19:00:16 <fax> Ysucc = succ(Ysucc)
19:00:32 <fax> and I can biject {zero,succ(zero),...} with {0,1,...}
19:00:56 <fax> but that doesn't let me that there exists a number n = 1 + n
19:01:16 <fax> because I can't prove that Ysucc is in {zero,succ(zero),...}, can I?
19:01:56 <oerjan> well assuming you define succ so it doesn't cycle
19:02:15 <fax> zero <> succ(zero) etc
19:02:51 <oerjan> you are basically constructing a new model of the peano axioms
19:03:03 <oerjan> for which succ n = n has no solution
19:04:46 <oerjan> anyway standard church numerals give you such a sequence
19:06:17 <fax> I think I have to internalize the notioin of 'is inductive'
19:06:44 <fax> and say that SK is not inductive so it can't exist
19:07:31 <fax> the existence of Ysucc = succ(Ysucc) means that SK isn't inductive because there is a term produced only by iteration of succ to zero but it is not in N
19:07:32 <oerjan> SK calculus is a perfectly consistent algebraic system
19:08:08 <fax> what exactly does that mean?
19:08:28 <oerjan> that it certainly exists in set theory
19:09:21 <fax> but there is no set in set theory X = X -> X
19:09:26 <fax> there is only X ~ X -> X
19:09:30 <oerjan> also why should that kind of inductive apply to SK - it contains _much more_ than just your succ sequence
19:09:45 <fax> so the equality of SK terms is more like a quotient of set equality than actual set equality
19:09:59 <fax> if a b in SK, a == b then the set a might not equal the set b
19:10:01 <oerjan> yeah it cannot be modeled with set functions
19:10:40 <oklopol> oerjan: there is a bijection between naturals and all SK expressions though, so if you define succ as enumerating them, doesn't it contain exactly the succ sequence?
19:11:09 <fax> it can't be modelled by set functions because X <> X -> X
19:11:09 <fax> is that the proof?
19:11:10 <fax> I don't know how to show that X = X -> X is the only possible model of SK
19:11:10 <oerjan> there _is_ however a model using continuous set functions such that the space of functions is topologically equivalent to the space of arguments
19:11:30 <oerjan> see that CPO denotational semantics stuff
19:11:49 <oklopol> yeah topologically equivalent whoosh
19:13:06 <oerjan> oklopol: it would be hard, probably impossible, to make succ be given by an SK expression itself for that complete enumeration
19:13:32 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah i was just wondering that, didn't realize succ was an sk expression
19:13:33 <oerjan> in fact that's obvious from the existence of fixpoints
19:13:53 <oklopol> all combinators have fixpoints?
19:14:16 <fax> oklopol you can prove it yourself
19:14:27 <fax> it only uses composition and Ux = xx
19:15:00 <fax> you don't need S or K or anything
19:15:40 <oklopol> could someone link me to a download button that gives me a fucking english openoffice
19:16:04 <oerjan> fax: i expect the impossibility of modeling lambda calculus using X = X -> X as sets was a major motivation for the invention of that CPO theory.
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19:16:54 <ais523> oklopol: http://openoffice.bouncer.osuosl.org/?product=OpenOffice.org&os=winwjre&lang=en-US&version=3.1.1 (OpenOffice.org US English version, and a bundled JVM)
19:17:00 <ais523> that's the Windows version
19:17:18 <AnMaster> strange... when I X-forward a gtk application over ssh it uses the local theme to the computer with the screen
19:17:27 <ais523> strangely, there doesn't seem to be a UK English version on that list
19:17:28 <oklopol> i actually found it, "English version" button linked to the page with the link to downloading the finnish version
19:17:38 <AnMaster> not the gtk theme on the computer the application is running on
19:17:41 <oklopol> but that page also had a small link with "more languages and versions"
19:18:06 * AnMaster looks at fizzie and ais523 as most likely to know
19:18:14 <oklopol> why the fuck can't people make good webpages, you know, ones that have a fucking button that lets you download the one size fits all english basic product.
19:18:25 <oklopol> nothing else, just a big button
19:18:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, although it doesn't strike me as ridiculously strange
19:18:36 <ais523> I'm not sure why it doesn't strike me as strange, though
19:18:46 <ais523> strange that it doesn't strike me as strange...
19:19:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean, I can't see what the other computer can know about the GTK+ theme on here
19:19:21 <ais523> maybe it doesn't have to
19:19:29 <ais523> it might just be sending generic "render GTK widget" commands
19:20:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think that X has such a thing
19:20:08 <oerjan> maybe there's an X resource for it - i remember setting those, way back when...
19:20:10 <AnMaster> it isn't done on that level I mean
19:20:27 <ais523> "X doesn't have" is a statement whose falseness is of a par with "Slash'EM doesn't have"
19:20:32 <AnMaster> how does one list X resources...
19:21:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I know something Slash'EM lacks though
19:22:40 <AnMaster> ais523, It is WAY easier to win slashem than nethack if you play as val
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19:23:00 <AnMaster> on the other hand, winning as pretty much anything else is near impossible
19:23:11 <ais523> val is rather nerfed early-game in slashem
19:23:18 <ais523> I thought monk was the most broken slashem class
19:23:29 <ais523> weakened by making arbitrary changes
19:23:35 <ais523> in an attempt to balance
19:23:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and monk isn't too bad in slashem either
19:23:48 <ais523> broken = too powerful for balance
19:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, but I meant later on. As in "after the quest"
19:24:19 <ais523> post-quest, you can generally win with anything in NetHack, and I doubt Slash'EM is that different from what I've seen of it
19:24:20 <AnMaster> ais523, val is pretty easy in nethack too
19:24:34 <ais523> val's easy in NetHack because it has the best early-game, and the late-game's irrelevant
19:24:47 <ais523> (wiz late-game blows everyone else out of the water, tou late-game is pretty good too...)
19:25:31 <AnMaster> err, why was there a b in the buffer heh
19:26:59 <ais523> because you screwed up C-x b to switch?
19:27:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm actually using xchat atm
19:27:37 <ais523> well, you tried to type emacs commands into a non-emacs program, then
19:27:41 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the GTK app I mentioned above
19:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I usually mix up nano and emacs. No problems with other apps
19:28:39 <AnMaster> like: Ctrl-O to save in emacs and C-x C-s to save in nano
19:30:08 <fizzie> I don't know any GTK details; but I don't think it's done via X resources. "xrdb -query" lists at least what you set. Oh, and if you change your .gtkrc, you can gdk_event_send_clientmessage_toall an _GTK_READ_RCFILES event, which to me sort of implies that all the GTK clients themselves are responsible for reading the settings. (This doesn't explain why it would use the GTK theme on the local X server, though. But maybe it can query that somehow. Who knows.)
19:30:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, KDE/QT apps seems to not do this
19:31:46 <AnMaster> Netscape*selectForeground: #ffffff
19:31:46 <AnMaster> Netscape*thermo.slider.background: #dcdcdc
19:31:46 <AnMaster> Netscape*thermo.slider.foreground: #0a5f89
19:31:46 <AnMaster> Netscape*topShadowColor: #ffffff
19:32:17 <AnMaster> (no I didn't set it, no I don't use netscape)
19:32:38 <oerjan> _really_ old global settings?
19:33:21 <fax> what's the axiom of lambda calculus that prohibits the trivial model?
19:33:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, but this system I'm checking on is from, like, 2006. And X was updated last week on it
19:33:48 <oerjan> fax: i don't think lambda calculus is usually thought of that way
19:33:59 <oerjan> the expressions are symbolic
19:34:18 <oerjan> and you define "equality" by reductions
19:34:33 <fax> oh so you say: these are equal, and nothing else is
19:35:36 <oerjan> but you could probably define other models - but then you'd probably include the trivial one
19:35:54 <fizzie> X resources might come from any of the myriad moving parts involved in the X startup. At least my system has a /etc/X11/Xsession.d/30x11-common_xresources to pull in all files defined in $SYSRESOURCES; and that comes from /etc/X11/Xsession; and refers to all files in /etc/X11/Xresources/; if your system uses the same layout, maybe something left some old files there.
19:36:25 <fizzie> I have a bit curious "*customization: -color" resource from there.
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19:37:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: well i meant it could be old cruft that nobody has bothered to delete
19:37:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, only on my ubuntu system too
19:38:16 <fizzie> Yes, everyone seems to do X startup a bit differently.
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19:38:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, also the system *never* had netscape installed
19:38:35 <AnMaster> due to being 64-bit from the beginning
19:38:48 <fizzie> This was Debian, but Ubuntu and Debian are best pals and all.
19:38:53 <fax> math is hard :P
19:38:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I meant the colour stuff is only on my ubuntu laptop
19:39:01 <fax> I don't think I can complete my proof
19:39:49 <fax> was trying to show that the theory of SK has no model in a strongly normalizing lambda calculus
19:41:06 <fax> I'm sure it's true that's good enough yeah?
19:41:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, you have macs on your network right? And ubuntu systems?
19:41:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Er, well, not simultaneously, no; the iBook dualboots to OS X and Ubuntu, but that's my only Ubuntu system.
19:42:06 <oerjan> that succ fixpoint does sound like a good idea for that
19:42:18 <AnMaster> was about to ask you to install mdns-scan on a ubuntu system and run it and see how many lines was returned
19:42:29 <AnMaster> it is fairly interesting how 90% of it is macs on all networks I tried it on
19:43:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, of course, any linux computer would do I guess
19:43:33 <AnMaster> and doesn't fungot run on that OS X system?
19:43:34 <fungot> AnMaster: yeah, and it's about what sounds good when it's spoken. or read or whatever. :)
19:43:59 <AnMaster> how very relevant fungot's comment was
19:44:00 <fungot> AnMaster: they don't really think so? :) that just makes it nicer to still name the new function.
19:46:07 <fizzie> Fungot typically runs on my in-DMZ virtual-server laptop; that's a Debian system. And I'm pretty sure there's nowadays no other mdns-based services floating around, but I used to have a media server thing setup with Avahi's mdns-repeater across the network segments here.
19:47:06 <fizzie> No other than what the iBook blubbers about when it's on.
19:47:20 <AnMaster> + MacBook Nr093380 [00:1b:63:37:41:f5]._workstation._tcp.local
19:47:20 <AnMaster> + MacBook Nr093380._sftp-ssh._tcp.local
19:47:20 <AnMaster> + MacBook Nr093380._ssh._tcp.local
19:47:40 <AnMaster> no need for nmap there. Can just ask it nicely
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20:08:59 <AnMaster> hm did I actually say "bbl in a bit" XD
20:10:08 <fax> bbiab back later
20:14:13 -!- adam_d has joined.
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20:20:37 <AnMaster> wasn't it you who was behind that extra-www site?
20:20:46 <AnMaster> (or do I completely misremember?)
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20:45:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have a math question
20:46:14 <AnMaster> Is 3↑↑↑↑3 too large to write out in this universe? (that is g₁ btw)
20:46:59 * oerjan cannot hear you because of the unicode LALALALA
20:47:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, that was 3^^^^3 and g_1 and g_64
20:47:31 <AnMaster> except ^ is not Knuth's up-arrow
20:47:55 <AnMaster> you forgot the base of the arrow
20:48:08 <Slereah_> AnMaster : It's obviously not too large to write, since you just did it
20:48:18 <Slereah_> OR DO YOU MEAN USING SCIENTIFIC NOTATION
20:49:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth's_up-arrow_notation#Tables_of_values
20:50:06 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I meant expanded using scientific notation yeah
20:50:39 <oerjan> yes that would be far too large
20:50:54 <oerjan> it's not even written in the table...
20:50:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh that table. Fail to read it
20:51:21 <AnMaster> the difference between the set m and the set n?
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20:52:08 <oerjan> the \ is to separate the axes
20:54:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it correct to say that each up arrow adds another "level of operator"ish. Like addition is related to multiplication?
20:54:40 <AnMaster> same is the relationship change between ^^ and ^^^ . Between n ^ and n+1 ^
20:57:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, why "more or less" first time then :P
20:57:58 <AnMaster> (just time to think about it without admitting you had to?)
20:58:49 * oerjan swats AnMaster for knowing too much -----###
20:58:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, you know *way* more math than I do
20:59:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is why I keep asking you :P
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21:03:32 <oklopol> my dream is to surpass oerjan in 3 years.
21:03:47 <oklopol> that's pretty much my only goal in life
21:04:02 <augur> so ive designed a modification of the lambda calculus that has absolutely no nesting, but instead has explicit scopal relationships.. :T
21:06:15 <oklopol> you and your crazy get rich quick schemes
21:07:42 <oklopol> well are you going to explain it?
21:09:09 <augur> well, essentially what you do is you mark out all of the applications and variable bindings explicitly
21:09:12 <augur> so in a simple case
21:09:22 <augur> say you have the expression <f x>
21:09:54 <augur> this would convert to the set { f[i][], x[][i] }
21:09:59 <oklopol> application of f with argument x?
21:10:21 <augur> the first slot there indicates the functions unique identifier index
21:10:40 <augur> and the second slow indicates what function that value is taken as argument to
21:11:08 <augur> f (g x) becomes { f[i][], g[j][i], x[][j] }
21:12:17 <oklopol> what's the name of the result of (f g)
21:12:26 <augur> { f[i][], g[][i], x[][i] }
21:12:40 <oklopol> so it's not a set it's ordered?
21:13:08 <augur> all things with the same lower index are mutually totally ordered
21:13:32 <augur> f 1 2 => { f[i][], 1[][i], 2[][i] }
21:13:45 <augur> f 2 1 => { f[i][], 2[][i], 1[][i] }
21:14:11 <augur> but things with different lower indexes are not ordered relative to one another
21:14:19 <oklopol> (((s (s k)) k) i) => { s[1][] s[2][1] k[][2] k[][1] i[][1] }
21:14:44 <augur> so f 1 2 also => { 1[][i], f[i][], 2[][i] }, { 1[][i], 2[][i], f[i][] }
21:15:12 <augur> for lambda abstractions
21:15:15 <oklopol> also that's a very weird kind of set.
21:15:21 <augur> well, it is sort of
21:15:25 <augur> its a partially ordered set
21:15:30 <oklopol> (if you want to think of it as a kind of set)
21:15:37 <augur> the cool part is the reduction rules
21:15:47 <augur> so let me tell you about lambda abstractions first
21:16:13 <augur> \x.x => { [i][]\x, [][i]x }
21:16:48 <augur> \x.(f x) => { [i][]\x, [][i]f[j][], [][i]x[][j] }
21:17:34 <augur> an application of the first looks like so:
21:18:22 <augur> (oh, btw, i was omitting the [][] after things since [][] is recoverable)
21:18:50 <oklopol> isn't it simply ((\x.x) f) => { f[][i] [i][]\x, [][i]x }
21:18:53 <augur> \x.x 5 => { [i][]\x[j][], [][i]x[][], [][]5[][j] }
21:19:34 <augur> the left brackets tell you the bindings, the right brackets tell you the applications
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21:20:28 <augur> so to reduce this, what you do is you take everything in the set that is pre-subscripted [i] (e.g. stuff like [_][i]_[_][_])
21:21:04 <augur> and you replace it with [_][]_[_][_] if its _not_ the variable bound by the lambda
21:22:27 <augur> and if it IS the variable bound by the lambda, you remove it, and substitute into the set a copy of the value application-bound by the lambda
21:22:48 <augur> but where that copy has all the application bindings of the variable its replacing
21:23:27 <augur> { [i][]\x[j][], [][i]x[][], [][]5[][j] } becomes { [][]5[][] }
21:24:24 <augur> because you drop lambda, drop the [][i]x[][], copy [][]5[][j] over, retaining the lambda bindings [][] from its left, and replacing the application bindings [][j] with the application bindings of [][i]x[][], namely, [][]
21:24:40 <augur> a more complicated version might be this:
21:25:44 <augur> \x.(sqrt x) 25 => { [i][]\x[j][], [][i]sqrt[k][], [][i]x[][k], [][]25[][j] }
21:26:01 <augur> here we drop the \x part, and the x part
21:26:43 <augur> we also replace [][i] on the things that have it with [][]
21:26:56 * AnMaster thinks this printout got messed up (translated from Swedish): "Travel time: 41.00 SEK Date: 2 Changes: 675.00 Number of zones: 2009-10-20 Cost: 00:52"
21:27:13 <augur> copy 25 over, keeping its lambda bindings ([][]) on its left, and replacing it's application bindings ([][j]) with the application bindings of the x ([][k])
21:27:19 <AnMaster> from router planner for local commuter bus company
21:27:30 <augur> { [][]sqrt[k][], [][]25[][k] }
21:27:43 <olsner> AnMaster: good day axe handle
21:27:46 <augur> which is the the translation of sqrt 25
21:28:15 <AnMaster> olsner, the worst part is that there is 1 change and somewhere between 6 and 10 zones
21:28:31 <AnMaster> so the values 2 and 675.00 doesn't fit in *anywhere*
21:29:37 <augur> the only things that must be lambda bound are the highest thing in the body of the lambda (so if the lambda were \x.\y.x+y, + would only be lambda bound by \y, and \y would be bound by \x)
21:29:42 <olsner> maybe the travel planner is taking you on a 668 zone round-trip
21:29:47 <augur> as well as the variables bound by the lambda
21:29:55 <augur> is make sense, oklopol?
21:32:10 <olsner> AnMaster: do you have a link or something? this calls for public ridicule
21:32:51 <AnMaster> olsner, nah it seems kind of generated. Because it keeps changing when I reload the page
21:33:03 <AnMaster> now it is mixed up so that the zone count is 41:00
21:33:10 <augur> infact, oklopol, you might even say that you can, in principle, not lambda-bind other lambdas, if you lambda-bind everything multiple times
21:33:24 <AnMaster> oh olsner Länstrafiken Örebo Län anyway
21:34:18 <AnMaster> olsner, not sure if it matters but I'm planning a route that is first a landsvägsbuss then a city bus
21:34:46 <AnMaster> (don't want to pinpoint where I live or where I'm going on irc)
21:34:57 <augur> you end up with multiple bindings anyway in cases like \P.\x.Px and \x.\P.Px
21:35:12 <augur> because P is both bound by one lambda, and the value of another
21:36:21 <olsner> AnMaster: but, then we can't use the knowledge to implicate you in a fake terrorist attack or something
21:37:46 <olsner> weird, I can't reproduce your bug
21:37:46 <AnMaster> olsner, that hadn't even come to my mind... I was more thinking about weird IRC people showing up around here (axe optional)
21:38:07 <oklopol> augur: it makes sense, although i'm not sure i could translate a complicated expression into it without further pondering.
21:38:16 <AnMaster> olsner, it seems fairly reproducible here. Though exactly how it is messed up varies
21:38:31 <oklopol> what do multiple bindings look like?
21:38:39 <augur> whats cool i think is that doing it this way, oklopol, might make points-free trivial
21:38:43 <augur> howdja mean multiple bindings
21:38:46 <AnMaster> <oklopol> what do multiple bindings look like?
21:39:03 <oklopol> augur: you end up with multiple bindings anyway in cases like \P.\x.Px and \x.\P.Px
21:39:13 <olsner> searching for something like storgatan fjugesta to studentgatan universitetet just gives me a normal travel plan with everything in the right column
21:39:16 <AnMaster> olsner, maybe it only messes up for those living here?
21:39:32 <AnMaster> olsner, what tab? it wasn't the first one
21:39:58 <augur> \P.\x.Px becomes { [i][]\P[][], [j][i]\x[][], [][i,j]P[k][], [][j]x[][k] }
21:40:10 <oklopol> okay so just comma, makes sense
21:40:16 <augur> P gets two lambda bindings
21:40:21 <augur> one for \P where its a variable
21:40:30 <augur> and one for \x where it's the return value
21:40:35 <AnMaster> olsner, does everything look correct?
21:40:41 <augur> it might be useful to distinguish those two
21:41:06 <AnMaster> olsner, also why studentgatan? *suspicious look*
21:41:26 * AnMaster wonders if olsner lives in Örebro or around
21:42:00 <olsner> AnMaster: I searched for storgatan and götgatan and hoped there would be some streets with similar names somewhere in or near or far outside örebro
21:42:00 <AnMaster> because how else could you have guessed that there is studentgatan universitetet
21:42:25 <AnMaster> götgatan sounds like Göteborg or Stockholm to me
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21:42:49 <oklopol> augur: alright makes sense, although i don't see why you couldn't just link P to x, and inherit bindings through the chain... or does that make reductions uglier?
21:42:57 <AnMaster> olsner, anyway you managed to pick my destination ± a few hundred meters :P
21:43:12 <olsner> then I picked something in the list of matches that sounded like it was well outside örebro (fjugesta) and something else that was in örebro but would require a bus trip inside örebro (to get a city bus in the itinerary)
21:43:18 <augur> oklopol, you might be able to. im just toying around with this right now.
21:43:45 <AnMaster> olsner, I would assume some high numbered bus (>100) to Resecentrum then bus 12 from there?
21:43:55 <olsner> right, the print view picks a previously displayed price as the number of zones
21:44:22 <AnMaster> and I got more errors than that
21:44:55 <olsner> it seems to have picked the price of an ungdom pendlarkort as the number of zones for me
21:45:14 <AnMaster> actually that could be quite accurate for the 675.00 figure I got
21:45:21 <augur> oklopol, yeah. awesome. points free is trivial. :)
21:45:26 <AnMaster> (I don't have that card myself)
21:46:04 <olsner> I don't get the travel time or date or changes or price columns mixed up though, just random data in the number of zones
21:46:20 <olsner> Alternativ 1Restid: 00:59Giltig: 2009-10-19Byten: 1Antal zoner: 785,00Pris: 20,00 SEK
21:46:41 <AnMaster> olsner, if it matters I only had alternativ 2 checked on the first page
21:46:44 <augur> ok so heres how it works, oklodilly
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21:46:47 <augur> if you have something like this:
21:47:07 <AnMaster> olsner, also I consistently get one change too much
21:47:44 <AnMaster> olsner, also what the hell... 20 SEK... 785.00 and 59 minutes of travel Huh.
21:48:07 <AnMaster> I live closer and it costs more, almost as long travel time, but the card is cheaper
21:48:44 <augur> this becomes { [i][]\f[j][], [k][]\x[l][], [][]sqrt[][j], [][]2[][l] }
21:49:10 <AnMaster> but well it would cost the same without a special card I think?
21:49:20 <augur> (im sure theres a way to calculate this automatically but for now you need to explicity say which value will go into which lambda)
21:50:03 <AnMaster> olsner, still. It wouldn't know how old I am afaik.
21:50:14 <AnMaster> and I *do* have a card. A different one though
21:50:31 <olsner> well, I was thinking that you might have picked a random different card in the drop-down than me
21:50:48 <AnMaster> didn't notice that menu at all
21:51:01 <augur> sorry oklopol, that was wrong
21:51:42 <AnMaster> olsner, it says "vuxen kontant" here
21:52:25 <augur> \f.\x.fx sqrt 2 becomes [i][]\P[v][] [j][]\x[w][] [][i,j]P[k][] [][j]x[][k] [][]sqrt[][v] [][]2[][w]
21:53:22 <augur> which reduces to points free [i][]\P[v][] [][i]P[w][] [][]sqrt[][v] [][]2[][w]
21:53:22 <olsner> ah, looks like there's quite some variation depending on exactly how far you go... that's why my price never matched yours
21:53:38 <augur> if you didnt have the actual argument value 2, you'd get the same things, minus the 2 values
21:54:00 <augur> because of the way the de-pointing works
21:54:18 <AnMaster> olsner, interestingly is cost half as much to take the "local city bus in small town -> station -> landsvägsbuss -> other landsvägsbuss -> city bus in Örebro" as just "landsvägsbuss -> city bus in Örebro"
21:54:25 <AnMaster> that doesn't quite make sense to me
21:54:46 <AnMaster> hell I didn't even know there were city buses in this small town
21:56:08 <augur> depointing is essentially just application, too. because the lambdas are such that order is irrelevant, it's _essentially_ as if it were a lambda expression with multiple, unordered arguments
21:57:26 <augur> infact, i think what i've done is almost get to a tarskian style system without lambdas... hm
21:58:59 <augur> i think ill just make it tarskian
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22:03:42 <augur> hm. tarskian logic makes points free so easy
22:04:01 <augur> well, its not _really_ points free, but
22:04:19 <augur> then again, neither is what i just did
22:08:40 <augur> its pretty cool stuff
22:08:50 <augur> you have three sets of primitives
22:09:15 <augur> primitive values, lets denote those as v, v', v'', ...
22:09:21 <augur> primitive variables
22:09:28 <augur> denote them as x, x', x'', ...
22:09:50 <augur> primitive values are finite in number, variables are infinite
22:09:53 <augur> you also have open sentence classes
22:10:41 <augur> Fx, Gxx', ... denote multiple open sentences, with arbitrary variables in each spot
22:10:58 <augur> so Fx as a family denotes the sentences {Fx, Fx', Fx'', ... }
22:11:41 <augur> Fxx' as a family denotes { Gxx, Gxx', Gxx'', ... Gx'x, Gx'x', Gx'x'', ... Gx''x, Gx''x', Gx''x'', ...}
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22:21:27 <ehird> 01:27:04 <ais523> this is probably old news, but: apparently when RMS wants to read a web page, he emails a daemon that wgets it and emails him back with the resulting page
22:21:41 <ais523> I had a link to it open a while ago
22:21:43 <ehird> We've been mocking that for at least a year. Maybe a year and a half.
22:21:47 <Deewiant> Seriously as in is he seriously spreading such old news or seriously... yeah.
22:21:51 <ais523> I guessed it was old news
22:21:59 <ehird> (You, on the other hand, wait a year and then start up w3m, I guess. :D)
22:22:01 <ais523> really, you should tell me the things you've known for ages
22:22:05 <ais523> so I don't end up telling you
22:22:07 <oklopol> Deewiant: uh this is ehird we're talking about
22:22:14 <ehird> ais523: But IRC isn't high-bandwidth enough!
22:22:19 <ehird> <oklopol> CONDESCENDING ANTI-EHIRD STATEMENT
22:22:32 <oklopol> how is knowing everything not a good thing
22:22:56 <ehird> i thought it was going to be something like "HE ALWAYS GOES FOR THE MORE INSULTING OPTION"
22:23:26 <oklopol> but that's getting a bit old
22:24:44 <ehird> 04:16:28 * ais523 wonders how quickly the other OSes will get that particular bit of political information...
22:24:45 <ehird> Let me check Software Update!
22:25:22 <ehird> (Theory: Apple names a good portion of its applications without metaphor so as to monopolise their respective markets on OS X.)
22:25:36 <ehird> Who needs a mail client if you can just open Mail?
22:25:46 <ais523> that's a clever theory
22:25:55 <ais523> allegedly, Microsoft try to do the same thing but with icons
22:26:04 <ehird> Yes, that e is so... unmetaphoric.
22:26:07 <ais523> the theory being that half their users can't use Firefox
22:26:16 <ais523> because they wouldn't be able to open it, because the icon is wrong
22:26:24 <ehird> Yes, but IE's icon is not literal or anything.
22:26:30 <ehird> It's just a well-known symbol.
22:26:39 <ais523> they try to ingrain it in conciousness
22:26:44 <ais523> it was all over the place in Win98, for instance
22:27:26 <oklopol> i had to look to remember what it's like
22:27:53 -!- fax has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:27:54 <ehird> Contrast: "Automator", "Calculator", "Chess", "Dictionary", "DVD Player", "Image Capture", "Preview" (admittedly it should probably be called "View" to fit into this perfectly, but eh), "System Preferences" (Okay, okay, it's a system tool, this is fine), "Time Machine" (I'm joking, I'm joking, OS X does not, in fact, contain a time machine)
22:28:09 <ehird> ais523: So more "monopolising the obvious namespace" as opposed to "ubiquitising an abstract".
22:28:16 <ehird> (FUN TECHNOBABBLE! ^____^)
22:28:30 <ehird> Nope, no timezone update.
22:28:34 <ais523> Ubuntu's been doing that too to some extent, but only on the menus
22:28:40 <ais523> not on the application names themselves
22:28:41 <ehird> Poor Argentinean OS X users!
22:28:44 <ehird> ais523: no, that's a GNOME policy
22:28:49 <augur> ok well once you have these primitive objects
22:28:55 <augur> you can define certain combinatorics
22:29:05 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, my conspiracy theory is very silly; more obvious names are better.
22:29:09 <ais523> I'm pretty sure I've seen blog posts about Ubuntu themselves being involved with it too
22:29:13 <augur> if S and S' are sentences (open or closed) so is S & S'
22:29:24 <ais523> ehird: why can't it be a me-style conspiracy
22:29:31 <ais523> when you go around doing actual useful and beneficial things
22:29:32 <augur> so if your sentences are Fx and Gxx', then Fx & Gxx' is also a sentence
22:29:35 <ais523> that just happen to aid a conspiracy too?
22:29:44 <ehird> ais523: because that's additional work?
22:30:10 <ehird> [[FatELF - the Linux equivalent of what Mac OS X calls "Universal Binaries."]]
22:30:14 <ehird> What a terrible idea!
22:30:24 <ais523> it should be able to do them, IMO
22:30:27 <augur> also, if S is a sentence with an open variable x any number of times, then you can replace all occurances of that variable with a primitive value and get another sentence
22:30:28 <ais523> although, nobody should actually use them
22:30:29 <ehird> "Bigger executable files! Dumber package management! RAAAAAAAAAAR!"
22:30:34 <ehird> ais523: "Benefits:" *huge list*
22:30:39 <ehird> This guy wants people to actually use it ;__;
22:30:47 <augur> so if your sentence is Fx & Gxx', you can replace x with v to get Fv & Gvx'
22:31:02 <ehird> On OS X, it makes sense; people are downloading applications without a package manager.
22:31:13 <augur> and notice this conveniently abstracts away from lambda binding orderings
22:31:14 <ehird> (Although not so any more! Snow Leopard dropped support for PowerPC.)
22:31:28 <ehird> (So... everyone who bought a Mac before 2005-2006... fuck you!)
22:31:32 <augur> Gxx' = both \x.\x'.Gxx' and \x'.\x.Gxx'
22:31:43 <augur> you can substitute for either variable in either order
22:32:24 <augur> the & combinator also abstracts over forking over primitive conjunction
22:32:45 <augur> in tarski's logic, tho, you cant get things like G(Fx)x'
22:32:55 <augur> where whole sentences substitute for variables
22:33:01 <augur> but, i would extent that and say they can
22:33:31 <augur> which means you can define a extend the combinator to a more general notion
22:34:05 <augur> if S and S' are sentences, and x is a variable in S that's not in S', you can substitute S' for x in S to derive a new sentence
22:34:36 <augur> e.g. Gxx', Fx'' => G(Fx'')x'
22:34:54 <augur> but not Gxx', Fx => G(Fx)x'
22:35:11 <augur> but definitely Gxx', Fx => Gx(Fx)
22:35:35 <ehird> "Much easier to distribute, users don't have to care about what their machine precisely is, they get a single download and that single download Just Works."
22:35:48 <ehird> ais523: ah, FatELF is targeted at people who can't condition on a uname call in a shell script
22:35:51 <augur> and this essentially is a general combinator that handles all sorts of things simultaneously
22:35:52 <ehird> it all makes sense now
22:35:55 <augur> forking is trivial
22:36:45 <ehird> "A fat Elf is called a Gnome, and that name is already taken."
22:36:48 <augur> let x+x' be a primitive sentence, and let Fx'' and Gx'' be primitive sentences, you can substitute Fx'' for x and Gx'' for x' in x+x'' to derive Fx''+Gx''
22:37:04 <ais523> ehird: gnomes are much shorter than elves, though...
22:37:08 <augur> and you've just build yourself a fork over + F and G
22:37:22 <ehird> augur: could you take this to /msg oklopol?
22:37:36 <ehird> my mental filter algorithms overfloweth with eths
22:37:57 <augur> s'at make sense oklopol?
22:37:58 <ehird> oklopol: start singing about bees to augur, please
22:38:56 <augur> its even better tho because you can abstract away from variable names
22:39:45 <augur> say F(_) and G(_) are primitive sentences
22:39:55 <augur> F(_) & G(_) is a derived sentence
22:40:10 <augur> (with _two_ distinct variables)
22:40:20 <ehird> Everyone likes bees!
22:40:24 <ehird> Bees grow on trees!
22:40:31 <ehird> Bees're the bees kneeeeeeeeeeees!
22:40:34 <augur> but you could also sort of ... connect the _'s with lines under then to denote that they're the "same"
22:40:36 <ehird> Everyone loves bees!
22:40:42 <ehird> Bees are ... great?
22:40:45 <ehird> Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
22:40:53 <ehird> Everyone loves trees! Trees grow on beeeees!
22:40:56 <ehird> Treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
22:41:26 <augur> if you did that, the sentence would have only one variable
22:41:26 <ehird> augur! TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!
22:41:26 <oklopol> aaaaaaanyway what are sentences? :P
22:41:51 <oklopol> we had values and variables, are sentences another axiomatic sorta set of things we have
22:41:56 <augur> just strings like F(_) or G(_,_) or F(1) or G(4,_) etc
22:41:58 <ais523> ehird: ooh, it's pretty fun to see what the T-Mobile/Danger/Microsoft conspiracy theorists are saying now
22:42:06 <ehird> ais523: You know what's more fun?!?!?!
22:42:08 <ehird> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!
22:42:21 <ehird> I bet it involves beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees
22:42:27 <augur> now we're just saying sentences are things like F(_), G(_,_), etc. and all the combinations and bindings thereover
22:42:36 <ais523> apparently a) the problem was that they deleted the backups to make room for another set, then did the update halfway through the backup process, and b) the data wasn't actually recovered, Microsoft are just lying to get everyone to forget the story
22:42:43 <ais523> this is a conspiracy theorist value of "apparently"
22:42:52 <oklopol> augur: can you have F(G(5))?
22:42:52 <ehird> Treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees kneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
22:43:06 <ehird> ais523: i'm sure all those dataless sidekick owners will just move on
22:43:10 <augur> make sense oklopol?
22:43:11 <ehird> oklopol: what an unoklopolic sentence!
22:43:15 <ehird> maybe you need BEES
22:43:26 <ais523> ehird: luckily, it's a rather easily disprovable conspiracy theory
22:43:33 <ais523> let's see if the disproof happens, it shouldn't take too long
22:43:38 <ehird> ais523: EVERY SIDEKICK OWNER IS IN ON IT
22:43:44 <oklopol> (pronounced as the pattern requires ofc.)
22:43:46 <ehird> also, burden of proof btw
22:43:47 <augur> any sentence can be turned into a fork by unifying two variables with a joining line
22:43:56 <ais523> ehird: but, but this is conspiracy theories!
22:43:57 <ehird> we shouldn't wait for disproof we should wait for proof from the conspiracy theorists
22:44:15 <augur> which makes points free trivial because you just link things up
22:44:17 <ehird> ais523: You're right. I hear that http://glennbeckrapedandmurderedayounggirlin1990.com/
22:44:33 <ais523> I'm not clicking that link, it would drive the filters here crazy
22:44:36 <ais523> is that even a real website?
22:44:37 <ehird> He hasn't denied it. And Microsoft haven't denied this either.
22:44:39 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
22:44:44 <augur> wanna make \x.f(x,g(x)) points free? well, f(_,g(_)) with both vars linked, and thats it.
22:44:59 <ehird> ais523: With a bunch of plastered "parody" markers on it and enough media coverage to make that obvious.
22:45:05 <oklopol> augur: so fork just means you have a var in many places and thus rewrite them at the same time when that var is binded?
22:45:13 <ehird> But I see no parody markers ... on Microsoft's website!
22:45:19 <ehird> (That makes sense shut up.
22:45:33 <ais523> it would be funnier if Microsoft did mark their website as a parody
22:45:33 <augur> for tarskian stuff, yeah
22:45:57 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, maybe Glenn Beck deleted all the data.
22:45:59 <ehird> It's a possibility.
22:46:11 <ais523> does he know of the site? and does he mind?
22:46:24 <ehird> I think his lawyers rabbled a bit, maybe.
22:46:31 <ais523> I've got it! that site itself is a coverup
22:46:38 <ais523> it's designed to make the proposition in question seem ludicrous
22:46:40 <ehird> He'd probably mind, being an authoritarian Republican nutjob.
22:46:43 <ais523> such that any genuine accusations of that are ignored
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22:47:04 <ehird> "9/11 was an inside job" was an inside job. Wake up "sheeple"!
22:47:12 <ais523> (note: this amount of convolutedness occasionally happens in Agoran scams I plan, but rarely in the real world)
22:49:12 <ehird> ais523: there's now a Wolfram Alpha app for the iPhone
22:49:23 <ais523> also, what does it do?
22:49:30 <ehird> Probably queries their service.
22:49:33 <ais523> if it's the obvious, then why would anyone buy it?
22:49:47 <ehird> $50! And this is in an age where apps that cost $10 are considered overpriced in the App Store.
22:50:02 <ehird> (Most cost, like, $1.99. It's a sorry state of affairs, the App Store.)
22:50:25 <ehird> ais523: Who would buy ANY mobile software for $50?
22:50:31 <pikhq> ais523: It's Wolfram.
22:50:36 <ehird> Heck, I wouldn't even buy DESKTOP software that cost that much!
22:50:49 <pikhq> Wolfram thinks that everyone else fellates him on a regular basis.
22:50:49 <ais523> is it actually an official app, I wonder?
22:50:55 <ehird> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/18/wolfram-alpha-miscalculates-what-its-iphone-app-should-cost/
22:50:57 <ais523> ehird: I might, if I really needed it for my job
22:51:03 <ehird> (Sorry; TechCrunch link. Please shield your eyes.)
22:51:15 <ehird> ais523: Well, sure, if I was a designer I'd fork over the, what is it, $1,000? For Photoshop.
22:51:30 <ais523> if you needed it; and you might well do
22:51:36 <ais523> I suppose it depends on what you're designing
22:51:42 <ehird> Graphic designer, that is.
22:51:48 <ais523> and if any sensible rivals have arrived since you got your graphic design degree, or whatever
22:51:58 <ehird> I highly doubt that'll happen for many years.
22:52:23 <ehird> "I’m going to mainly focus on second point here, because if you’ve used Wolfram Alpha, you don’t really need much explanation about this app, which is a slick interface for the service. And while I get Wolfram Alpha’s logic behind selling the app for $50, I think it’s faulty logic. Here’s what they’re telling us:
22:52:23 <ehird> A note on price — it is listed at $49.99, which is basically less than 1/2 the price of a graphing calculator with inferior functionality in comparison, which is how the company came to that number. Or, as we’ve been saying, the price of 12 lattes from Starbucks…"
22:52:38 <ehird> 12 lattes from Starbucks might be the only way to spend $50 worse than buying this app
22:52:40 <ais523> but I don't drink lattes
22:52:45 <ais523> and therefore, wouldn't want to spend money on them
22:52:49 <ehird> 12 anythings from Starbucks!
22:53:04 <ais523> unless I really badly needed to buy someone else a drink, I suppose, and assuming they liked that sort of drink
22:53:17 <ehird> But I like the graphing calculator thing; it's not like I can't just, oh, HIT UP WOLFRAMALPHA.COM
22:53:50 <ehird> "That’s fine, but with the exception of the $90 Navigon GPS turn-by-turn app" Wow that's expensive.
22:53:53 <ais523> <quote in that article> egonomics
22:54:11 <ehird> ais523: It's TechCrunch; please, try and set up your "FUCK THIS FUCKING SITE" shield.
22:54:24 <ais523> ehird: except, that's from a quote in the article
22:54:27 <ehird> Shoddy journalism, self-righteousness, smarmy new media assholes and awful writing await.
22:54:28 <ais523> not from the article in itself
22:54:34 <ais523> IOW, it's the wolfram people who wrote that
22:54:40 <ehird> ais523: TechCrunch infects EVERYTHING IT TOUCHESE
22:54:46 <ais523> although TechCrunch did call them on it mercilessly
22:55:04 <ehird> http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/IMG_0003.PNG
22:55:09 <ehird> How big is the moon? The $50 question.
22:55:36 <ehird> ais523: Rich coming from them, they who don't verify stories before posting them, who ruthlessly demolish companies over idiocy, who... okay, I'll shut up.
22:55:43 <ais523> according to the comments, they reduced the price to $5 already
22:55:52 <ehird> (TechCrunch is really bad for the tech industry...)
22:56:14 <ehird> (Am I the only person who uses corrections for making statements better as opposed to fixing typos?)
22:56:46 <ais523> it lets you have said the right thing first time
22:56:58 <ais523> the strange thing about IRC corrections is, they're normally obvious
22:57:03 <ais523> and yet you still feel the urge to make them
22:57:04 <ehird> "It’s also interesting to note that despite talk of a deal with Bing, the defautl web search"
22:57:08 <ehird> ais523: egonomics, defautl.
22:57:36 <ais523> "invovle" is a very common typo of mine, when I actually try to type "involve"
22:57:42 <ais523> in fact, I did it in that line at the end and had to correct it
22:57:52 <ehird> Ahem. I was laughing at TechCrunch. Stop disturbing me :D
23:02:17 <ais523> please tell me you somehow got that result from Alpha
23:02:23 <ais523> say by confusing it with special characters
23:03:19 <ais523> (I still love the way that SCO's trustee got rid of Darl by eliminating the position of CEO...)
23:07:12 <ehird> ais523: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/18/wolfram-alpha-miscalculates-what-its-iphone-app-should-cost/#comment-3044256 marvel at the cognitive dissonance of someone prescribing a (terrible) "brilliant" marketing strategy to the inept, bumbling fools at Wolfram Research
23:07:37 <ehird> I got utterly confused by [[the name “Wolfram Alpha” becomes associated with luxury high-end computing power]]...
23:08:00 <ehird> [[this is a smart business decision, and brand enhancing for Wolfram Alpha]] dude...
23:08:28 <ais523> well, it was proved that if you make an iPhone app sufficiently expensive, people will buy it even if it does nothing
23:08:32 <ais523> (the "I Am Rich" debacle)
23:09:18 <ais523> incidentally, some of my RL friends were under the impression that the iPhone was the only high-end mobile phone in existence
23:09:23 <ais523> Apple's marketers are doing their job well
23:10:01 <ehird> To be honest, looking at the alternatives they're not *completely* wrong...
23:10:15 <ehird> ais523: the I Am Rich thing was handled terribly
23:10:28 <ehird> removing it from the app store was silly... although I'd still give refunds
23:10:34 <ehird> but WHAT is the mental process of the buyers?
23:10:48 <ehird> "Ha ha ha so hilarious... hmm this buy button... click... Password? This can't really work! Tap tap tap. Ahahaha."
23:11:05 <ehird> "B... but I didn't think it would ACTUALLY charge me!"
23:11:17 <ehird> "I thought it was some ... hilarious joke? By... Apple?"
23:11:32 <ais523> I wonder what the most expensive iPhone app at the moment is?
23:11:41 <ehird> Possibly that $90 GPS app?
23:11:58 <ais523> given that that one's popular, I doubt it's the /most/ expensive
23:12:05 <ais523> (also, why has nobody undercut them yet?0
23:12:11 <ais523> we need more repos in general
23:12:30 <ehird> Yes, we need more ... source code repositories!
23:12:34 <ais523> I think the app store is proving that even amongst people generally willing to spend a lot of money on things, repos bring the price of things more in line with their actual worth
23:12:46 <ehird> (Expand repos plz)
23:13:12 <ais523> ehird: I'm using it as a general term that encompasses things like the App Store and the Ubuntu software repositories
23:13:33 <ais523> basically, sites from which you can download a large variety of software, which are relatively centralised
23:13:34 <ehird> Also, more in line with their actual worth would be "closer to $0", which, while true, that isn't the reason; iPhone piracy is hard, and piracy is what is pushing other digital information to its true worthlessness.
23:13:49 <ais523> not everyone pirates, though; some people are too honest
23:13:50 <ehird> I think it's more the fact that buying is *so easy* — you press buy, wait a few seconds to download, it's done.
23:13:54 <ehird> Or you put in the password.
23:13:55 <ais523> again, it's a case of only honest people being published
23:14:06 <ehird> ais523: "honest" isn't a synonym for "law-abiding"
23:14:08 <ais523> if only the uncorrected sentence were true!
23:14:20 <ais523> it means either "law-abiding" or "truth-telling" depending on context
23:14:54 <ais523> gah, Google disagrees with me
23:16:24 <ehird> "honest man" is the only context the former applies in, I believe
23:17:00 <ais523> besides, I was using that context!
23:17:05 <ais523> so even stranger that you call me on it
23:17:17 <ehird> "honest people" is not "honest man".
23:17:43 <ehird> Anyway, I'm not sure I can agree with "if only [law-abiding people were published] [was] true!".
23:17:46 <ais523> yes it is, it's a straightforward generalisation
23:17:54 <ehird> ais523: Yes, and idioms are repellant to that.
23:18:38 <ais523> you have to realise I'm part of organisations where the good sort of political correctness is so ingrained in the mentality that things that are, say, gender-biased for no good reason almost feel grammatically incorrect
23:19:33 <ehird> Hey, I totally agree (http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html is one of my favourite things ever) with the gender-neutral thing, it's just that a whole bunch of idioms only work because they're archaic; their literal meaning being entirely different.
23:19:38 <ehird> So "honest people" doesn't really work.
23:19:42 <oklopol> is what you should've said
23:19:45 <ehird> It sort of does, but eh.
23:19:49 <ehird> oklopol: hyuk hyuk hyuk
23:21:16 <ehird> For Punly Meanderings Forevertothmorse!
23:24:03 <ehird> It's a word person.
23:24:14 <oklopol> xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:24:42 <oklopol> okay i actually laughed out loud at your E too
23:24:54 <oklopol> so maybe the person thing wasn't very funny either
23:24:54 <ais523> I'm laughing out loud now too
23:25:02 <ais523> or if this conversation's related
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00:04:26 <Gregor> AnMaster: Yes, www.www.extra-www.org is my site
00:04:40 <ehird> Oh yeah, I didn't finish logreading
00:09:12 <ehird> 09:14:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, I know you are just joking
00:09:12 <ehird> 09:14:41 <AnMaster> and want to get it fixed too
00:09:12 <ehird> reading this is like nails down a blackboard
00:09:20 <ehird> and i have an urge to make them scratch your eyeballs out instead
00:09:42 <ehird> 09:17:07 * AnMaster makes a mental note to always use as much unicode notation when talking to oerjan as possible
00:09:42 <ehird> "Why don't I be a dick. Guys, guys, I'm joking. It's funny. Laugh."
00:10:50 <ehird> 09:22:31 <AnMaster> isn't it some windows only font?
00:10:50 <ehird> 09:22:53 <AnMaster> which raises the question: why the hell windows?
00:10:50 <ehird> gahh can't someone in here passively use windows without you ragging on them?
00:12:41 <ehird> 09:39:50 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> As I stare at it it shifts between symmetric and asymmetric. <-- hit that auto button on your TFT front panel RIGHT NOW!
00:12:41 <ehird> lol, using analog cables to digital devices, lol
00:14:18 <ehird> 10:05:16 <ais523> A y = B y doesn't necessarily imply A = B
00:14:19 <ehird> 10:05:20 <ais523> it does if it's true for all y, though
00:14:27 <ehird> Deewiant: The "auto button" means "readjust for retarded VGA cable, lol"
00:14:34 <ehird> You click it, and the screen blurs in entirely different ways!
00:14:46 <Deewiant> I always wondered what it was for.
00:15:08 <ehird> Believe me, a VGA cable makes TFTs reaaaaaaally crappy.
00:16:39 <ehird> 10:30:34 <oklopol> so this openoffice i've been hearing so much about for the last day or 10 years or something
00:16:39 <ehird> Turn back, before shitty software... ENVELOPS YOU!
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00:29:46 <ehird> 11:20:32 <AnMaster> how does one list X resources...
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00:31:40 <ehird> 11:43:43 <AnMaster> sounds like OS X...
00:31:41 <ehird> 11:43:48 <AnMaster> all about the user experience
00:31:41 <ehird> 11:43:59 <AnMaster> how very relevant fungot's comment was
00:31:42 <ehird> was any of that meant to make sense
00:31:42 <fungot> ehird: set to latin-1 for another app, looks better with -o2 though.
00:31:49 <ehird> fungot just said some random shit, like usual
00:31:49 <fungot> ehird: and it exposes it doesn't matter? if so, that is
00:32:43 <ehird> 12:46:14 <AnMaster> Is 3↑↑↑↑3 too large to write out in this universe? (that is g₠btw)
00:33:11 <ehird> G_1 is unfathomable multiples larger than 10^(10^100), i.e. a googolplex, which is too big
00:33:24 <ehird> the number of the atoms in the universe is 2**80 or something, or was it 10**80
00:38:02 <ehird> whatever, clearly the number is below a googolplex unless the universe is way different than we thought
00:39:30 <ehird> I LOVE KILLING PIGEONS? wait what
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01:20:09 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+much+does+wolfram+alpha+cost
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02:52:32 <Gregor> `wolfram how much does wolfram alpha cost
02:52:43 <HackEgo> how much does wolfram alpha cost \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ If you have to ask... \ Result: \ \ ...you can' t afford it. \ according to the common aphorism \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on October 19, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
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05:08:47 <MizardX> universe = everything. space = nothing
05:29:07 * Sgeo officially hates supybot
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08:24:06 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster: Yes, www.www.extra-www.org is my site <-- php warning on validator page
08:24:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> 12:46:14 <AnMaster> Is 3↑↑↑↑3 too large to write out in this universe? (that is g₠btw) <-- that no longer looks like unicode to me
08:28:26 <fizzie> Ooh, the famous BBL University.
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08:30:10 <Rugxulo> so nobody here has mcbc10.zip lying around??
08:30:24 <Rugxulo> (Ben Olmstead's Befunge93 compiler using NASM)
08:34:17 <Rugxulo> what about Ryan Kusnery? anybody know how to contact him?
08:51:32 <Rugxulo> anyways, I converted his tiny DOS B93 interpreter to FASM/NASM/YASM (from TASM) ... and his site is mostly down now anyways :-(
08:52:05 <Rugxulo> 1023 bytes (aPACK'd, otherwise 1213)
09:16:44 <Rugxulo> http://board.flatassembler.net/download.php?id=4619
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14:56:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Ooh, the famous BBL University. <-- yeah. Almost as famous as MIT
14:57:25 <fizzie> "BBL can refer to: Baltic Basketball League". Must be that.
14:57:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, nah. Bitwise Binary Logic
14:58:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: now what the heck is shakespeare doing in the 17th century.
14:58:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, argh I haven't had time to read it yet. That breaks all rules
14:58:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can say "iwc" but not *what it was about*
14:58:51 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
14:59:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, so that means you are disqualified
14:59:13 <oerjan> don't worry it's not really a part of the punchline
14:59:29 <oerjan> or well it is, but not that particular absurdity
14:59:48 * oerjan realizes he just digged himself in deeper
15:00:30 <oerjan> also, it's clearly Booze, Boobs and (very occasionally) Lectures
15:03:27 <oerjan> poor kindly old palpatine, the players are clearly manipulating him towards evil.
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16:05:16 <ehird> THE WORLD IS OVER!
16:06:41 <ehird> 00:24:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> 12:46:14 <AnMaster> Is 3↑↑↑↑3 too large to write out in this universe? (that is g₠btw) <-- that no longer looks like unicode to me
16:08:11 <oerjan> well, heck if i know what it's _this_ time
16:08:15 <ehird> More secure than ROT-26!
16:09:05 <oerjan> hm i guess it's triple encoded this time
16:10:01 <oerjan> except the euro char is not in Latin-1, must be something else it went through
16:10:08 <ehird> AnMaster sent as UTF-8, Safari misdecodes as whatever, when copied and sent in Colloquy, the misdecoding is encoded as UTF-8
16:10:17 <ehird> oerjan: Windows codepage thing, probably.
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16:13:01 <oerjan> oh wait IE actually _does_ show a euro when setting Western European ISO (and also Windows)
16:13:09 <oerjan> must not be actual latin-1 then
16:18:32 <fizzie> Latin-9, also called ISO-8859-15.
16:18:41 <fizzie> That's what every non-multibyte-eer's using nowadays.
16:19:05 <fizzie> There's just 8 characters changed from Latin-1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso-8859-15
16:27:44 <Deewiant> Silly them, don't they know that ISO-8859-15 is considered harmful? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/iso-8859-15/ Maybe they don't understand because the text is in Finnish
16:29:30 <ais523> what's the complaints there about?
16:29:34 <ais523> I don't understand Finnish either
16:32:36 <fizzie> Seems to be mostly about the general pointlessness of fiddling around with eight-bit encodings when you could be using UTF-8 and the full Unicode set instead. Also few cripes for latin-9 especially: not codepoint-wise forward-compatible with Unicode (like latin-1 is), and only fixes things the "language people" (as opposed to typographists) dislike.
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16:43:34 <fizzie> Though, why would not understanding a language be a problem any more? It's 2009! Just apply some machine translation.
16:43:43 <fizzie> "In 1999 there were already 8-bit encoding, which is both a language that people typograafikoiden pet signs: Windows-1252. The reasons for the avoidance of the encoding are not practical but principled (Spex comes from Microsoft) and theoretical (a muinaispääte may leave the most significant bit ignored and treated as an indication of control characters are printed).
16:43:43 <fizzie> ISO-8859-1 is printed on the signs of tavuittain forward compatible with Windows-1252's with. ISO-8859-1 is koodinumeroittain forward compatible with Unicode. ISO-8859-15 does not have to be compatible.
16:43:43 <fizzie> In 1999, there was also its tavuesitys Unicode and UTF-8. In fact, the ISO-8859-15 ratio is defined Unicode! "
16:44:15 <Deewiant> In fact, the ISO-8859-15 ratio is defined Unicode!
16:45:23 <fizzie> That's statistics (as opposed to linguistics) for you.
16:45:53 <fizzie> Admittedly I'm not quite sure what sort of statistics yield that particular translation.
16:46:07 <fizzie> But I'm sure it was no-one's decision.
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19:54:45 <fax> wdat abot turing oracle
19:58:15 <Slereah_> I will solve your halting problems
20:00:17 <fax> hey does anyone tabulate termination of programs?
20:00:25 <fax> for example + terminates, . terminates, ....
20:00:29 <fax> you might get a nice fractal?
20:01:29 <Slereah_> Well, the termination of a program is defined by the Turing set.
20:01:38 <fax> I never heard of Turing set.
20:01:58 <fax> oh oh really
20:02:04 <fax> but the complement has pattenr
20:02:28 <fax> actually maybe I lid
20:02:33 <fax> I was going to say: for example X is a terminating program so is XX
20:02:37 <fax> but that's not true!
20:02:51 <Slereah_> Turing set, or equivalently the Turing number, of a machine is, for the nth element, 0 if the program defined by the Gödel number n halts, 1 otherwise
20:03:51 <fax> in the future we will use bits of turing set as currency
20:04:57 <Slereah_> IIRC, as an incompressible number, it has every pattern possible in it
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21:18:05 <pikhq> The Turing set is also uncomputable. Hooray.
21:18:47 <fax> there should be a challenge to write short programs that produce most bits of turing set
21:45:05 <Slereah_> pikhq : Incompressible numbers are uncomputable :3
21:45:13 <Slereah_> That's why they're incompressible
21:45:44 <pikhq> Slereah_: Well... Yes...
21:48:53 * AnMaster stabs random apps that keeps thinking you want letter instead of A4.
21:49:23 <AnMaster> System wide settings: A4. But yet some apps 1) ignore it 2) refuse to remember your change to A4
21:50:38 <AnMaster> yes CUPS is set to A4 in all places
21:53:32 <Slereah_> fax : Writing bits of the Turing set is machine dependant
21:54:43 <Slereah_> Hell, it can be computable and all if it's for a non-TC machine!
21:55:26 <Slereah_> Computing the turing number of H9Q
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22:07:01 <AnMaster> olsner, btw Länstrafiken Örebro's router finder has gone mad now... It suggested I should go by Eskilstuna to go between Örebro and my home (a few Scandinavian miles away)
22:07:27 <AnMaster> unable to reproduce it sadly :(
22:10:20 <oerjan> it's part of a great conspiracy to make all swedes get lost
22:10:43 <oerjan> (i hope it's not norwegian, i may have just committed treason then)
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22:26:27 <olsner> oh noes, I missed oerjan before I had time to make a witty remark about norway
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22:53:01 <ehird> 08:43:34 <fizzie> Though, why would not understanding a language be a problem any more? It's 2009! Just apply some machine translation.
22:53:02 <ehird> he prefers bugging people to using google search, it's a fair assumption he prefers bugging people to using google translate
23:02:48 <olsner> AnMaster: not sure... probably something like "well, norway is owned by sweden, so technically it's also norwegian"
23:26:24 <ehird> huh, gwern is deaf?
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23:49:23 <ehird> "Introducing Magic Mouse. The world’s first Multi-Touch mouse.
23:49:24 <ehird> Now included with every new iMac. And available on its own for just $69."
23:49:43 <ehird> (It's a touchpad!)
23:50:04 <ehird> Well, okay, it's also a regular mouse.
23:50:10 <ehird> But it's also a touchpad.
23:51:46 <fax> I'd get one if I wasn't allergic to wireless
23:53:03 <ehird> cxnkjxnjksdfndjksf new iMacs!!
23:53:04 <ehird> fax: Don't worry, Bluetooth wireless = fine
23:53:08 <ehird> It's just the radio wireless that fucks up all the time
23:53:23 <ehird> GAH YOU SLOW INTERNET CONNECTION, YOU ARE IMPEDING ON MY APPLE.COM BINGE
23:53:38 <ehird> Holy shit the new iMac... looks weird.
23:53:56 <ehird> Rocks fall, everything changes!
23:54:22 <ehird> The new MacBook is... uh... almost identical to the Pro.
23:54:31 <ehird> That white sure is ugly though!
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23:55:59 <ehird> The iMac really looks weird.
23:56:04 <ehird> Oh GOD... that's why...
23:56:28 <ehird> Damn, I'm cutting myself
23:56:30 <ehird> Why have you forsaken me, Jobs?!
23:56:46 <ehird> wat new apple remote
00:00:30 <ehird> Huh, the iMac comes with either one of two >3 GHz Core 2 Duos, or a quad-core Core i5, or a quad-core i7 (the latter two in the 27" model only).
00:00:37 <ehird> Quite an oddball collection of thingies.
00:00:48 <ehird> "27-inch model can be attached to a wall mount, articulating arm, or other VESA-compliant mounting solution using the optional VESA Mount Adapter Kit"
00:01:11 <ehird> Haha, you can stuff up to 16 GiB of memory into these things...
00:01:16 <ehird> TOO BAD THEY'RE 16:9 and therefore useless
00:14:49 <olsner> hehe, the very first thing I saw on the mac store page was the star trek screen shot :D
00:18:11 <olsner> also, the 27" imac along with the miniscule keyboard looks quite... gay?
00:20:24 <ehird> i don't really get the feeling that the 27" imac has sex with other 27" imacs...es
00:20:47 <ehird> i never thought they would go 16:9 on me
00:20:58 <ehird> all the screens are IPS, on a more positive note
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00:22:04 <ehird> that magic mouse might be nice.
00:22:10 <ehird> i hope it still clicks down like the mbp trackpads
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03:06:48 <ehird> "Right clicking requires a lifting of the left click finger, just like the Mighty Mouse"
03:06:59 <ehird> looks like the new Magic Mouse is worthless!
03:07:17 <ehird> Although with that capacitive touchpad it shouldn't be quite as maddening with fingers as its Mighty predecessor.
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13:36:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well, okay, it's also a regular mouse. <-- picture?
13:39:26 <fizzie> Just look at Apple's site for it? http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/ and so on.
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18:24:50 <oerjan> And a good daycycle to you
18:25:34 <ehird> daycycle is insulting to owls.
18:26:47 <oerjan> a good insultcycle to y'all, then
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19:25:29 <ehird> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Greensburg+Ave+%26+5th+Ave+15035&sll=40.382104,-79.811018&sspn=0.0127,0.033023&ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=40.406116,-79.840121&panoid=sol9KJb1ivzNbyp0gbfDtA&cbp=12,151.77,,0,0.57&hq=&hnear=5th+Ave,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania&ll=40.405425,-79.839835&spn=0.02745,0.055747&z=15
19:25:50 <ehird> Poor Google Street View car, it crashed and went to Hell
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19:36:04 <fizzie> That's pretty disturbing.
19:39:14 <ehird> fizzie: It's obviously an orange bag caught on the camera, thus why you can see letters.
19:39:32 <ehird> Or, you know, Hell.
19:40:10 <fizzie> The letters are messages beyond the Veil; the lamentation of the damned.
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22:37:23 <ehird> "Lightweight yet powerful, OpenDNS Deluxe gives you all of the features you love from OpenDNS today, plus removes the advertisements."
22:37:33 <ehird> So, now the don't-fuck-up-DNS option is going to be $9.95/yr?
22:37:44 <ehird> Remind me not to use or recommend OpenDNS in the future.
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22:39:38 <ehird> Yeah; before now, it used to be possible just to flick a few switches and voila, untarnished DNS.
22:46:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Kinda sucks if you're in Europe.
22:46:40 <ehird> For obvious reasons.
22:48:32 <Ilari> Any others (in case DNS gets badly tarnished and I can't be bothered to set up caching nameserver)?
22:48:50 <ehird> 4.2.2.4, I believe it stops eventually
22:49:32 <ehird> Ilari: For such temporary usage, OpenDNS would probably be bearable, too.
22:50:55 <ehird> Seems they want you to sign up even to use the free version now, sigh.
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23:04:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you give them your IP
23:04:11 <ehird> and set up settings
23:04:26 <ehird> The IPs themselves might still work, but they don't publish them.
23:04:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Maybe with your shitty connection.
23:05:05 <ehird> On a regular broadband connection, it changes every time your router blips out and disconnects/reconnects.
23:08:15 -!- olsner has joined.
23:08:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you have a DSL, cable or fibre-optic connection with a non-shitty modem?
23:09:00 <ehird> yes, but your dsl's really shitty, isn't it
23:09:13 <ehird> and presumably the modem isn't too hot either...
23:09:49 <bsmntbombdood> either way, even if it changes every few months, that's too often to be dicking with dns
23:10:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's why you install the update client
23:10:24 <ehird> or rather, one of the handful they offer for various OSs
23:10:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: okay, how else do you propose they offer settings?
23:11:15 <ehird> right, somehow I doubt they'll be adopting your new business model which includes nobody buying their services
23:12:23 <bsmntbombdood> trying to sell something that most people don't even know about, that their isp provides for free, transparently
23:12:41 <ehird> yes, hello, welcome to capitalism, we have to change things to sell them
23:12:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw they mainly target it at businesses.
23:13:03 <ehird> oh, the ips are in their footer now
23:13:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and... I think they're doing quite well:
23:13:25 <ehird> http://www.opendns.com/customers/
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23:14:28 <bsmntbombdood> a few minutes ago you were expressing disdain for opendns
23:14:51 <ehird> because i'm primarily interested in leeching off it for free.
23:15:12 <ehird> why is it so hard to comprehend that i'd discontinue using a service for whatever reason, and yet still consider that they handle their business model in the best way they can?
23:15:58 <ehird> your mom is stupid
23:16:08 <ehird> anyway if people would stop saying stupid things i'd stop making stupid responses :)
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23:17:01 <ehird> coppro: GOOD MORNING SENTINEL
23:24:16 * coppro fails to get the reference
23:24:29 <ehird> Exclamation marks!
23:25:57 <ehird> Oh, you're such a frequent flyer.
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00:44:05 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001317
00:44:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824113019
00:44:46 <ehird> How good are your eyes?
00:45:17 <ehird> Oh, it's not quite that bad.
00:45:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: If you're a huge pixel junkie, go for the former. It has more pixels, you see. The latter is bigger and 16:10.
00:45:50 <ehird> 16:10 beats 16:9 at that kind of size.
00:46:02 <ehird> The bezel on that Gateway sure does look ugly, though.
00:46:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: The Samsung's dpi is 102.16, so some text could be quite smalll without fucking with system settings.
00:46:42 <ehird> Also, it really is horrifically ugly.
00:47:12 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=24-113-019-S02&ISList=24-113-019-S01%2c24-113-019-S02%2c24-113-019-S03%2c24-113-019-S04%2c24-113-019-S05%2c24-113-019-S06%2c24-113-019-S07%2c24-113-019-S08&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16824113019&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=Gateway%20FHD2401%20Black%2024%22%205ms%20HDMI%20Widescreen%20LCD%20Monitor oh god, my eyes
00:47:15 <ehird> Go with the Samsung! :-P
00:47:32 <ehird> But, ehh, apart from the obvious aspect ratio and resolutions, they're equally shitty.
00:50:22 <ehird> Untrue! But there's a reason those displays cost 200 bucks.
00:52:02 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824179058
00:52:47 <ehird> http://tinyurl.com/55abze
00:53:19 <ehird> I wonder why you ask me for opinions when you just call me a retard and say I think everything sucks.
00:53:58 <ehird> Too expensive, that's what :(
00:54:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: But, uhh, the higher the response time, the less likely that company just panders to idiots who go for "ooh, faster".
00:54:37 <ehird> Admittedly, it also finds sucky displays that are just made badly and suck.
00:54:53 <ehird> Look at the 1920x1200 ones, I'd say
00:55:40 <ehird> Heh, the top-rated 1920x1200 is a pricey IPS
00:55:55 <ehird> That 25.5 ASUS is lame, really crappy pixel density
00:56:21 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824196020 Get this... and you'll be... in the hood
00:56:25 <ehird> oh, I crack myself up
00:57:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: But seriously, most cheap displays are exactly the same, so just get the cheapest one with a reasonable size/resolution (24" 1920x1200 is a good bet) and a high rating
00:57:23 <ehird> 24" is already 94 ppi
00:57:31 <ehird> (96 being the "canonical" ppi)
00:57:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: As an alternative, if you really don't care, get the most pixels you can and fuck the rest.
00:57:55 <ehird> You probably won't notice.
00:58:30 <ehird> So, that Samsung you linked is probably your best bet if you don't mind squinting for some text.
00:58:41 <ehird> Although it's just 102 PPI, which isn't really all that bad.
00:59:14 <ehird> If you have good eyesight, it'll be fine, and you get 2359296 pixels.
00:59:15 * Sgeo should learn how to use screen
01:00:00 <Sgeo> So is typing python Sucket.py >~/sucket.out 2>~/sucket.err &
01:00:26 <bsmntbombdood> so first you say go 1920*1200, then recommend 2048*1152?
01:00:33 <ehird> Sgeo: That's totally unrelated to screen
01:00:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: As in, "if you really don't care about the quality"
01:00:47 <Sgeo> ehird, screen would let me run Sucket in its own um, thingy
01:00:50 <Sgeo> And just leave it there
01:00:56 <Sgeo> Without redirecting stuff
01:01:01 <ehird> Which, if you're looking at $2xx displays, you don't, so just go all out and get the most pixels you can
01:01:10 <ehird> Sgeo: That's called opening a new terminal or tab
01:01:18 <ehird> Screen is just a lousy terminal tabbing system
01:01:25 <ehird> A pain to use and over-complicated
01:01:29 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm intending to leave this open even after I turn off my computer
01:01:30 <ehird> Plus it lets you suspend a session, that's cool I gueuss
01:01:35 <ehird> But that's the only thing
01:01:44 <ehird> Your computer can't run things while it's off.
01:01:45 <Sgeo> ehird, it's running on normish
01:04:21 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824179058
01:04:48 <ehird> It has no reviews.
01:04:52 <ehird> Not on newegg, at least.
01:04:58 <ehird> Not a single rating.
01:05:14 * Sgeo now understands screen well enough to use it
01:05:20 <ehird> Eh, just get it. You won't be disappointed.
01:05:50 <ehird> Unless you have another display with different colour characteristics and look at any sort of coloured image... But seriously, people don't care.
01:11:56 <bsmntbombdood> i don't even know if the monitor i have now is crappy or not
01:12:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much did it cost?
01:12:32 <ehird> how big is it, who made it, what resolution
01:13:44 <ehird> I have never heard of Princeton. Googling just gives some amazon and review sites and forums and stuff.
01:14:00 <ehird> Almost certainly some cost-cutting budget manufacturer with no presence.
01:14:20 <ehird> Yeah, I can't even find a company site or anything.
01:14:30 <ehird> Almost certainly really crap.
01:16:21 <ehird> 9—16.9 ms (!!) response time, company has no presence, tiny, uses a whopping 55 W...
01:16:42 <ehird> (The response time would be fine if it was IPS, but it clearly isn't. So it's just shoddy engineering.)
01:17:32 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824179058
01:17:50 <ehird> can't handle the extra pixels eh?!?!?!? :P
01:58:38 <Ilari> There's ways to boost response time of LCD display, but those tend to result their own issues...
01:58:54 <ehird> See all the 2 ms displays, catering to idiotic gamers.
01:59:00 <ehird> Such a load of crap.
02:00:46 <Ilari> Then one gets effects like reverse ghosting...
02:21:08 <Ilari> BTW: Anybody written brainhype program that prints 'Y' if Goldbach conjecture is true, 'N' otherwise? :->
02:23:55 <ehird> That'd be trivial, no?
02:24:24 <ehird> [[This language is "super-Turing-complete" because it solves the halting problem for Turing machines.]]
02:24:34 <ehird> Brainhype solves the halting problem for Brainhype.
02:24:39 <ehird> So it solves the halting problem for a super-Turing machine...
02:24:43 <ehird> Which is even harder!
02:33:45 <Ilari> IIRC, making string extender where the program would be unrestricted grammar would give something super-turing (AFAIK, complement of context-free grammar already gives turing-complete result)...
02:37:02 <Ilari> The computational class for that is upper-bounded by RE^RE.
02:47:03 <Ilari> ehird: I don't think writing the program in brainhype would be trivial. You need stuff like primality testing...
03:08:35 <bsmntbombdood> both of your nicks are the same length and the same color
03:08:53 <ehird> Your mom is the same length and colour.
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03:12:49 <Oranjer> anyone sentient and autonomous enough to comprehend the meanings behind these words?
03:13:38 <fungot> Asztal: why aren't they in the mood for a lisp not to be particularly condusive to stacks.
03:14:21 <Oranjer> fungot, what you just said does not nearly begin to prove your sentience
03:14:22 <fungot> Oranjer: i figure that this *is* an unstable version of chicken?
03:14:46 <coppro> Asztal: fungot is Markov, right?
03:14:47 <fungot> coppro: control is at one level of indentation. it just happens to be extraordinary like few things are vague, but it's
03:14:59 <fungot> Oranjer: it is a good way too much
03:15:17 <fungot> coppro: the local of the same original code. ( " the wrong way
03:15:57 <Oranjer> fungot doesn't seem very coherent
03:15:59 <fungot> Oranjer: but was walk-lisp properly tail-recursive? ( else i will tell em... :-p something...
03:16:23 <Oranjer> fungot, parantheses require a closing ) to be grammatically correct where I come from
03:16:24 <fungot> Oranjer: which is quite irrelevant if the rest are possible optimizations to be done
03:18:12 <fungot> Oranjer: that was mean, stop doing homework problems.'
03:18:24 <Oranjer> dammit, fungot can also predict the future
03:18:25 <fungot> Oranjer: unicode defines " case folding" which is fine but how could i have to be a
03:18:58 <Oranjer> now I just feel ridiculous
03:19:03 <ehird> Oranjer: It ignores you after a time so that WE DON'T GET PEOPLE SPAMMING THE CRAP OUT OF THE BOTS!
03:19:15 <ehird> I'm your friendly channel asshole.
03:19:20 <ehird> Wait, scratch the friendly.
03:19:39 <Oranjer> I am a lonely man in a lonely world in a lonely channel in a lonely state of mind
03:19:43 <ehird> Oranjer: fungot is written in befunge
03:19:43 <fungot> ehird: well i read examples in r5rs... inside a syntax form, so wherever you have a point there
03:19:43 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
03:19:44 <fungot> ehird: c also provides a modest degree of portability, its return should be opaque objects, rather than having a fnord assembler compiler...
03:19:47 <ehird> Although that might be an old version
03:19:54 <ehird> I'm going to assume you're here for the languagees
03:19:58 <ehird> *languages; I hate this keyboard
03:20:26 <Oranjer> what languages do you mean, though?
03:20:34 <ehird> Esoteric programming languages. Like Befunge.
03:20:47 <ehird> We get a steady occasional trickle of esoterica people...
03:20:54 <ehird> ...aand like clockwork, you're another one.
03:21:14 <ehird> Well, unless you're here for a mysterious third purpose.
03:21:24 <ehird> A guy a while back came in here to talk about Russian music.
03:21:54 <ehird> Oranjer: You seem quite confused.
03:21:55 <Oranjer> actually, coppro recommended this channel because I wanted to talk about my attempts at creating a universal language akin to that conceptualized by Leibniz
03:22:11 <ehird> Well, with that one sentence I think you've proved you belong here. Hiiiiii.
03:22:33 <coppro> :D /me has finally done something good in this channel
03:22:46 <ehird> We're crazy, we're http://esolangs.org/, we're oklo.
03:23:03 <coppro> funny, I was thinking the same thing
03:23:05 <Oranjer> everyone either fights it or does it
03:23:13 <coppro> Is oklopol like INTERPOL but with less INTER and more oklo?
03:23:23 <ehird> oklopol is oklopol
03:23:29 <ehird> but that's just heresy
03:23:31 <Oranjer> how can one use oklo- as an affix?
03:23:46 <Oranjer> also, I have actually heard of esoteric languages before
03:23:47 <ehird> (The capitalisation is part of the spelling!)
03:24:02 <ehird> Yes, that's the canonical one.
03:24:17 <coppro> Brainfuck pales in comparison to some of the things developed in here
03:24:22 <coppro> and a few that weren't
03:24:30 <Oranjer> I have heard that said before, coppro
03:25:00 <coppro> PLEASE .1 <- #4235~#&2098 DON'T wait, what?
03:25:07 <ehird> I'm pretty sure Feather will be classed as a Schedule I drug upon its release and wide dissemination
03:25:33 <ehird> ais523 can't seem to stop trying to import it from Hilbert-space to this world.
03:26:01 <Oranjer> Hilbert-space? is that a meta, a mesa, an alter, or an inter space?
03:26:30 <ehird> I saw someone use Hilbert-space to denote the platonic realm of information and ideas, and it's rather more concise, plus the name is cute.
03:26:48 <ehird> It doesn't make sense, but it sounds nice.
03:26:54 <Oranjer> I just use ideosphere or memosphere or psychosphere myself
03:27:24 <ehird> I think the fact that you use a term for it at all further cements your belonging in here...
03:27:51 <ehird> Come to think of it, once Feather is fully formed, it'll probably have always existed.
03:28:09 <Oranjer> damn self-supporting existences
03:28:09 <ehird> In fact, a retroactive paradox in Feather caused the Big Bang...
03:28:39 <ehird> YOU DID NOT WANT TO ASK THAT QUESTION
03:28:41 <Pthing> i am suddenly curious about what Plato called Platonica
03:28:45 <Pthing> But the true earth is pure (katharan) and situated in the pure heaven (en katharōi ouranōi) ... and it is the heaven which is commonly spoken by us as the ether (aithera) ... for if any man could arrive at the extreme limit ... he would acknowledge that this other world was the place of the true heaven (ho alethōs ouranos) and the true light (to alethinon phōs) and the true earth (hē hōs alēthōs gē).
03:28:59 <ehird> While you still have the last vestiges of the remnants of your sanity
03:29:00 * Sgeo works around unicode strangeness by going directly into the database and removing a problematic line
03:29:15 <Oranjer> sanity? I know not what you speaketh ofeth
03:29:17 <Sgeo> May the gods of forgive me
03:29:51 <Pthing> so it would appear we have a choice of "pure heaven" or "the aether"
03:30:07 <Pthing> I did not know he placed the Forms in the aether
03:30:14 <Pthing> i guess it makes sense
03:30:14 <ehird> Oranjer: To grossly misrepresent it to a degree that borders on being a lie, and insult ais523 by painting it as more simple than it is,
03:31:00 <ehird> Oranjer: It basically involves programs modifying the Feather interpreter (itself written in Feather). This interpreter is then used to retroactively run all of the program from the start, so that the change "always was", in a sense. Except it also changes the interpreter used to interpret the interpreter that interpreted the program, and so on to infinite depth.
03:31:21 <ehird> Oranjer: You change the interpreter, which causes an infinite chain of retroactive reinterpretations of the interpreter, and then finally of the program.
03:31:50 <Oranjer> but it cannot actually go through time, correct?
03:32:23 <ehird> Oranjer: Surprisingly no!
03:32:26 <ehird> I know, it's shocking.
03:32:45 <Oranjer> bah, doubtful--even Hofstadter could not escape time
03:33:01 <ehird> It basically forgets all it did and removes any output it made. The hard part is escaping the necessity of interpreting the interpreter infinite times...
03:33:27 <Oranjer> amnesia is not time travel
03:33:50 <ehird> (a) That's not what I said.
03:34:01 <ehird> (b) Do attempt to explain how the halting problem is related.
03:34:32 <ehird> ais523 has a faint grasp on how to actually specify the language and is looking into working into an interpreter (well, was; he's stopped for now, I think), so...
03:35:14 <ehird> I'm pretty confident it's implementable on a Turing machine.
03:35:30 <coppro> a UTM or a regular one?
03:35:38 <ehird> coppro: UTM, obviously.
03:35:50 <ehird> Oranjer: Super-turing languages, such as those that can solve the halting problem.
03:36:12 <ehird> (These are probably impossible to implement in physics...)
03:36:30 <ehird> Well, obviously the halting problem is not solvable at all, as it's a non-concept.
03:36:39 <ehird> Oranjer: Super-turing languages definitely exist.
03:36:54 <ehird> They are probably not possible to implement in our universe, though.
03:36:57 <Oranjer> I still doubt their existence, regardless of your anecdotal support
03:37:05 <ehird> So, for all intents and purposes, they are impossible to implement.
03:37:07 <Oranjer> can they be modeled in this universe?
03:37:11 <ehird> Oranjer: They certainly exist, they're just not implementable.
03:37:18 <ehird> They have been specified, a few on our wiki.
03:37:26 <ehird> coppro: Almost certainly no, you mean.
03:37:31 <Oranjer> can they be modeled in this universe?
03:37:35 <ehird> Who knows what the crazy quantum physicists will discover next.
03:37:41 <coppro> Oranjer: as ehird says, almost certainly no
03:37:48 <ehird> But they can be specified in the abstract.
03:37:54 <coppro> ehird: I repeat your previous correction
03:37:59 <Oranjer> ...that's what I meant, ehird...
03:38:13 <ehird> Oranjer: So how can you doubt their existence?
03:38:36 <Oranjer> I cannot, if they can be modeled, then they exist
03:39:28 <Oranjer> I'm a modal realist, by the way
03:39:38 <Oranjer> it has no bearing, just thought i should let y'all know
03:40:21 <Oranjer> what did this all start with again?
03:40:54 <ehird> Being in this channel for long enough makes you give up on answering that question.
03:41:40 <Oranjer> Besardles, I intend to create a functionally universal language
03:41:49 <ehird> Modal realism strikes me as similar to solipsism: unfalsifiable, and hard to accept in practice
03:42:09 <Oranjer> that hurt's more than you think
03:42:14 <coppro> Oranjer: no one helps in here.
03:42:22 <ehird> Oranjer: Your abuse of the apostrophe hurts even more!
03:42:40 <coppro> All that happens is that ehird berates your attempts and other people make unhelpful suggestions
03:42:42 <ehird> Do note that I arrived at that opinion with a three-second skim of the Wikipedia article.
03:42:51 <ehird> coppro: You're welcome!
03:43:05 <coppro> and yet, somehow, you end up thinking this is a nice place to hang out
03:43:21 <ehird> At least we're all articulate.
03:44:41 <Oranjer> dammit, now I have to find an Optimus quote and write it in E-Prime
03:44:58 <ehird> That's what I was thinking.
03:45:23 <Oranjer> Synergetics, as per Buckminster Fuller?
03:47:14 <Oranjer> ehird? have I destroyed you?
03:47:32 <ehird> Buckminster is awesome.
03:47:35 <ehird> Well, was, I guess.
03:47:55 <Oranjer> I am saddened that I could never meet him or Borges
03:48:08 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:48:13 <Pthing> did you ever actually try to read anything he wrote
03:48:14 <Oranjer> how does that bot know about buckminster?
03:48:21 <ehird> Pthing is a bot now?
03:48:34 <ehird> Pthing: Why do you say that?
03:48:47 <Oranjer> I..thought...but all that jumbled nonsense after I asked "What's Feather?"
03:48:49 <Pthing> because he just rambles on and on making deep sounding gibberish
03:48:58 <Pthing> that doesn't mean anything
03:49:03 <Oranjer> yeah, but what he says is useful
03:49:25 <Oranjer> also, I guess you're right--the best book on Synergetics was actually a book-wide review on Fuller's book
03:49:28 <ehird> His inventions and concepts are inspired enough that I am inclined to give credence to his written work, even though I have not read it.
03:49:59 <Oranjer> 'tis my favorite quote from a movie I never saw
03:50:07 <Oranjer> "The Idea is valid regardless of the Origin"
03:50:22 <Oranjer> (I am also an Epistemological Anarchist)
03:50:39 <ehird> Dymaxion sleep schedule. Geodesic domes. Dymaxion house (eccentric, yes, but interesting).
03:51:04 <Pthing> what do you see in synergetics exactly
03:51:17 <Oranjer> building a mile-diameter floating geodesic dome by heating the inside up by one degree
03:52:09 <Pthing> we are fortunate somebody put the whole thing up
03:52:09 <Pthing> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/toc/toc.html
03:52:14 <Oranjer> ummm...the avoidance of the irrationality that nature itself does not use? the fact that 2^2 is not necessarily "X squared", but also "X triangled"?
03:52:18 <ehird> It seems obvious to me that Buckminster was crazy, or at least highly eccentric, but the Dymaxion sleep schedule, Geodesic domes, Dymaxion houses and other such cool stuff makes me highly suspicious of any accusations that he's just a kook.
03:52:38 <Oranjer> I have some awesomes quotes from the man
03:53:01 <Pthing> <Oranjer> ummm...the avoidance of the irrationality that nature itself does not use? the fact that 2^2 is not necessarily "X squared", but also "X triangled"?
03:53:03 <ehird> Epistemological anarchism seems stupid.
03:53:16 <Oranjer> ehird, no! at least back up your insults!
03:53:25 <Pthing> you mean, in fact, "the use of triangles to build things"
03:53:42 <ehird> As far as I can tell, it's "the scientific method is fascist, hurf durf, let's just make up shit".
03:53:52 <Oranjer> now now, ehird, that's not it at all
03:54:03 <ehird> At least, the Wikipedia page says nothing about it making coherent arguments against the scientific method as a universal decider.
03:55:02 <Oranjer> I merely suggest that there is no concrete boundary between "science" and "pseudoscience", and that therefore a theory's "rightness" can only be determined by its validity to reality, and that that can only be determined by its usefulness
03:55:46 <ehird> Well, Wikipedia claims that the source of epistemological anarchism was against only considering falsifiable claims, so I guess that explains modal realism.
03:55:53 <Pthing> 1005.54 Truth is cosmically total: synergetic. Verities are generalized principles stated in semimetaphorical terms. Verities are differentiable. But love is omniembracing, omnicoherent, and omni-inclusive, with no exceptions. Love, like synergetics, is nondifferentiable, i.e., is integral. Differential means locally-discontinuously linear. Integration means omnispherical. And the intereffects are precessional.
03:56:37 <ehird> Pthing: reading that line is like trying to read in a dream
03:56:40 <Pthing> 1005.612 When a person dies, all the chemistry remains, and we see that the human organism's same aggregate quantity of the same chemistries persists from the "live" to the "dead" state. This aggregate of chemistries has no metaphysical interpreter to communicate to self or to others the aggregate of chemical rates of interacting associative or disassociative proclivities, the integrated effects of which humans speak o
03:56:40 <ehird> I keep forgetting three words ago
03:56:40 <Pthing> f as "hunger" or as the need to "go to the toilet." Though the associative intake "hunger" is unspoken metaphysically after death, the disassociative discard proclivities speak for themselves as these chemical-proclivity discard behaviors continue and reach self-balancing rates of progressive disassociation. What happens physically at death is that the importing ceases while exporting persists, which produces a locally
03:56:43 <Pthing> unbalanced__thereafter exclusively exporting__system. (See Sec. 1052.59.)
03:57:10 <ehird> Anyway, by "Buckminster is awesome" I meant "he was crazy in a cool way, and his inventions are awesome".
03:57:17 <Oranjer> now, now, Pthing, we can select at random and then textualize any fragment of any work of science, and reach the same "this guy's a kook 'cause he uses jargon I don't know"
03:57:18 <ehird> Clearly his written work is rather too eccentric.
03:57:24 <Pthing> most of the time he was crazy in a boring way
03:57:34 <ehird> Perhaps in his writing.
03:57:40 <Pthing> which is what I am talking about
03:57:48 <Oranjer> http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html
03:57:52 <ehird> Well, I never said anything about his writing, really.
03:57:52 <Pthing> Oranjer, now now stop saying "now now" like a patronising faggot
03:57:55 <Oranjer> that's a link to that book
03:58:08 <ehird> When I said "at least we're all articulate", maybe Pthing isn't too articulate.
03:58:17 <Oranjer> now now, Pthing, you know namecalling is on the bottom of the disagreement hierarchy
03:58:18 <ehird> Unless he's actually saying that Oranjer is acting homoesxual.
03:58:27 <Pthing> haha, disagreement hierarchy
03:58:38 <ehird> Oranjer: please, say that wasn't a paul graham reference
03:58:47 <Oranjer> oops? is that taboo? sorry
03:59:14 <Oranjer> *fecespalm* just sounds awful
03:59:38 <Pthing> jargon can be used for multiple purposes
03:59:47 <Pthing> ideally it is used as a kind of shorthand for more complex terms
03:59:53 <Oranjer> only if you fail to provide a framework of definitions
03:59:55 <Pthing> or, as here, it can be used for poetic mystification
03:59:57 <ehird> Graham's disagreement hierarchy falls into the the latter of the two categories of Paul Graham's work, being stupid ego-driven rubbish and complete obviousness yet somehow presented in the most egotistical way imaginable.
04:00:13 <Oranjer> oh? you can tell the difference between the two, Pthing, without knowing what the words mean?
04:00:43 <Oranjer> oh, no, I can't Pthing, I just like to be confrontational
04:01:21 <Pthing> since we're quoting authorities and accusing each other of being inarticulate, I'll pull out the "if you can't explain what you are doing to an n year old child, then you do not understand it" card
04:01:22 <ehird> Well that's... surprisingly honest.
04:01:28 <ehird> Oranjer: by the way, oerjan may sue you for name infringement.
04:01:44 <ehird> Pthing: I can't explain the halting problem to an n year old child.
04:01:48 <Oranjer> I have heard of that individual, as I have also heard of you, ehird
04:02:23 <Oranjer> also, you caught me, Pthing--I do not understand anything Buckminster says--I've never read a single thing he's ever written
04:02:23 <Pthing> also it's often specified that it is a bright child
04:03:01 <Pthing> by the unpopular epistemic idea of "people who have read a text are better equipped to discuss it than people who haven't"
04:03:26 <Oranjer> I have no idea what we're doing, anyway
04:03:51 <Pthing> i was rather hoping you could explain what you saw in the above quoted sentences
04:03:54 <Oranjer> I would ask how this all started, but I learned my lesson before
04:03:57 <Pthing> because they seem entirely meaningless to me
04:04:09 <Oranjer> oh? then I shall look at it again
04:04:09 <ehird> I'll grab the acid and the popcorn
04:04:10 <Pthing> or rather pregnant with a meaning always out of grasp
04:04:27 <Pthing> which can make for fine fiction, but this does nothing for me
04:04:56 <Oranjer> yeah no, I ain't getting anything outa it--I don't know what half the words mean
04:05:17 <Oranjer> I wonder if Buckminster built up from earlier definitions of those words?
04:05:19 <Pthing> here is an epistemic Pro Tip
04:05:44 <ehird> Someone should write some nonsense on how the scientific method is inherently capitalist, and proposing a collectivist form of epistemological reasoning
04:05:48 <ehird> Then submit it to a postmodernist journal
04:05:56 <Oranjer> and throw in feminism, of course
04:05:59 <ehird> Tada, Sokal affair mk. II!
04:06:17 <Pthing> you kinda prejudice it by saying it's nonsense
04:06:23 <Oranjer> I mean, shrill feminism, where history is masculine and whatnot
04:06:48 <ehird> "you kinda prejudice it"
04:06:53 <ehird> But yes, such a paper has something like a 99.99% chance of being bullshit
04:06:54 <Pthing> the paper you proposed?
04:07:04 <ehird> Oranjer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
04:07:13 <ehird> Pthing: Thus why I said "some nonsense"
04:07:15 <Oranjer> I remember that without even clicking on it
04:07:53 <Pthing> political criticisms of such things are not entirely nonsense
04:08:17 <Oranjer> I would argue that nothing is entirely nonsense, if it has functionality
04:08:41 <ehird> what is it with this discussion? you go around and point out some Buckminster bullshit, and now you're praising an imaginary paper that decries the scientific method as being capitalist
04:08:51 <ehird> and proposing some vague, meaningless "collectivist epistemology"
04:08:59 <Oranjer> haha, ehird, perhaps his consistency is beyond you?
04:09:02 <ehird> it seems like we're continually swapping places all the time
04:09:04 <ehird> Pthing: Yes, as a hoax
04:09:05 <Pthing> not only content with pretending to write it
04:09:12 <Pthing> you're pretending i'm critiquing the finished product
04:09:20 <Oranjer> also, ehird, switching positions is a good thing, I've heard
04:09:26 <ehird> Pthing: i'm confused
04:09:30 <Pthing> when I'm actually talking about the whole body of ideas that would lead to such a thing being written for real
04:09:31 <ehird> you're saying that it wouldn't be bullshit, no?
04:09:48 <Oranjer> it means one is more focused with reaching the truth, as opposed to merely wanting to convince others of your own rightness
04:09:50 <ehird> well yes, a paper about anything can theoretically be reasonable
04:10:00 <Oranjer> monkeys n' typewriters, eh?
04:10:03 <Pthing> If it were written well, it would make a lot of sense in the field
04:10:10 <ehird> but I'd wager the chances of making such an argument in a form *suitable to postmodernist journals*
04:10:16 <ehird> and having it be coherent
04:10:18 <Pthing> which journals are those
04:10:21 <ehird> postmodernism is bullshit
04:10:35 <ehird> Pthing: For instance, Social Text, subject of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
04:10:41 <Oranjer> ah, ehird, but all things exist as examples to learn from--even bullshit
04:10:51 <ehird> Pthing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism
04:10:54 <ehird> Do your own research
04:11:14 <ehird> The simple answer is that you can't define postmodernism because it's just a bunch of bullshit made to sound intellectual perpetrated by idiots
04:11:14 <Pthing> what do you understand postmodernism to mean
04:11:27 <Pthing> if you go around with a definition like that
04:11:28 <ehird> I just answered your question before you asked it!
04:11:34 <ehird> Causality, in your face
04:11:36 <Pthing> then obviously what you said is true
04:11:41 <ehird> Pthing: yes, because my experience has shown it to be true,
04:11:48 <ehird> Pthing: just like you consider buckminster a kook
04:12:00 <ehird> from your experience of his works, you conclude they're all bullshit
04:12:05 <Pthing> I think buckminster had some good ideas in there
04:12:06 <ehird> and therefore you deduce that buckminster writes bullshit
04:12:10 <ehird> this is called "reasoning"
04:12:13 <Pthing> I would not say that buckminster is bullshit
04:12:18 <Pthing> I would say he writes very boring books
04:12:20 <Oranjer> hey, peoples, let the other person talk! oy vey!
04:12:22 <ehird> i guess reasoning's a bit capitalist though
04:12:26 <Oranjer> y'all are talking over each other
04:12:32 <ehird> and, you know, male-oriented
04:12:35 <Oranjer> that's hardly good debate from
04:12:47 <ehird> Oranjer: with IRC, you can't make someone else's message unreadable; isn't it great
04:13:08 <ehird> so what does it matter if you talk over another?
04:13:13 <Pthing> I have much the same opinion of the various philosophical schools that get accused of being postmodernist
04:13:23 <Oranjer> out of context is not in the meaning
04:13:28 <Pthing> which, incidentally, is a term the people themselves don't like to use
04:14:11 <ehird> so, let's talk about post-capitalist rationalism as applied to geometry
04:14:20 <Oranjer> as in, to avoid language games and talk past each other as much as possible, we should let the other person complete their thought
04:15:46 <Pthing> for that matter, come to think of it, "there's a lot of very boring writing about things nobody cares about, but there are a few gems of ideas" is a pretty good description of scientific journals in general
04:16:13 <Oranjer> and of science in general, I would argue
04:16:18 <ehird> anyway, I think that the general Euclidian approach is inherently biased in that it favours circles to squares, circles being the only uniform object, and I would like to consider a circle as a man, so we can see that the problem most be solved, in a post-capitalist feminist society, by reasoning that squares and circles are both equally round, thus collectivising roundness
04:16:39 <ehird> that's so bullshit I almost believe it
04:16:59 <Oranjer> but where would the functionality in subscribing "roundness" to both squares and circles?
04:17:26 <Oranjer> also, the Euclidian approach favors circles to squares? I have seen no such thing--citations, please?
04:17:28 <Pthing> you still haven't explained what the shit functionality is
04:17:41 <ehird> If a property can be imagined, it is necessary. But biased properties are problematic.
04:17:45 <ehird> They are inherently anti-feminist.
04:18:02 <ehird> Oranjer: Clearly, uniformness is desirable: there is no discrimination between the different parts of a shape.
04:18:10 <ehird> Thus, uniformness is feminist.
04:18:17 <Pthing> all you did was translate from latin to english
04:18:19 <Oranjer> for whatever the Observer wishes to use it for, Pthing
04:18:21 <ehird> Squares are not uniform, therefore they are inferior to circles.
04:18:33 <Pthing> you just used "use" to define "use"
04:18:40 <ehird> And it is anti-collectivist discrimination.
04:18:49 <ehird> Squares have to answer to circles at the points where they differ from another point and circles do not.
04:18:52 <ehird> This is not collectivist.
04:18:53 <Oranjer> very, well, Pthing, I shall think about this
04:19:04 <Pthing> it won't lead anywhere
04:19:08 <ehird> In conclusion, Euclidian geometry must be replaced with a post-capitalist, feminist, collectivist replacement that views circles and squares as equally round.
04:19:19 <Pthing> ehird, why are you doing this
04:19:24 <Oranjer> as I have actually gone for some time assuming the definition of "functionality" as something hardly worth referring to
04:19:34 <Pthing> as a consequence, it's not worth talking about
04:19:41 <ehird> Pthing: It's more interesting than any other equally-bullshit thing we could be talking about.
04:19:47 <Oranjer> also, "It won't lead anywhere" is hardly evidence supporting its own claim
04:20:08 <Oranjer> and yes, Pthing, it's not worth talking about because it has no use
04:21:08 <Oranjer> Basically, I would argue that the only way to "prove" communication is if a goal is accomplished whose accomplishment's chances of occurring would have been greatly increased if the second party understood the communication
04:21:47 <ehird> post-capitalist, feminist rationalism on geometry!
04:21:48 <Pthing> fffffffffffffffffffffff
04:21:48 <Oranjer> and therefore, I would say a theory has functionality if the Observer can use it to accomplish a goal
04:22:23 <ehird> Chastisty is no waay to live life!
04:22:32 <Oranjer> http://nobodyscores.loosenutstudio.com/index.php?id=534
04:23:08 <Oranjer> I thought you said "Chastity is no way of life! God can't spell!"
04:23:25 <ehird> that, my friend, is also true
04:23:27 <ehird> that is also true.
04:23:54 <Oranjer> bah, I long ago learned to avoid any assumption of knowing an "absolute truth"
04:24:10 <Oranjer> I instead use "valid according to what I have observed of this universe"
04:24:35 <Oranjer> yes, I do turn all so-called objectivist, absolute statements into subjective relativism
04:24:41 <ehird> I'M SORRY IN FUTURE I'LL AVOID SIMPLE, USEFUL TERMS THAT YOU KNOW THE MEANING OF IN CASUAL ENGLISH
04:24:45 <ehird> ALSO THE USE OFF LOWERCASE
04:26:01 <ehird> IN THE FUTURE WE HAVE DISCONTINUED LOWERCASE
04:26:20 <Oranjer> WHO AUTHORIZED THAT CHANGE
04:26:49 <Oranjer> also, Jesus Fuckin' Houdini did this get outa hand
04:27:37 <Oranjer> I just want to create a functionally universal language that explicitly refers to its own abstraction and that which it does not cover!
04:28:05 <ehird> Importing Jesus/Houdini porn from Hilbert-space is really not what the world needs right now.
04:28:40 <Oranjer> also, I have determined that all such "mental" planes only exist in the meta-, and as such cannot carry on into this space
04:28:55 <ehird> got any other semantically empty metaphysics?
04:29:24 -!- madbrain has joined.
04:29:27 <ehird> I'm working on an engine powered entirely on renowned rationalists rolling in their grave
04:29:32 <ehird> and it could help to set it off
04:29:37 <ehird> almost entirely clean energy
04:29:48 <Oranjer> do you mean semantically empty because you do not know what I mean by the words I say, or because you know for a fact that what I say has no meaning?
04:29:54 <ehird> we just need to keep making up enough bullshit by the time they stop rolling
04:30:03 <Pthing> it's because you're being BORING
04:30:08 <Oranjer> there exists a distinct difference between the two
04:30:22 <Oranjer> :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
04:30:31 <ehird> Oranjer: because I'm fairly sure any digression into what meaning you consider it to have will involve the words "subjectivity", "reality" and "epistemology"
04:30:46 <Oranjer> I will try to avoid those words
04:30:47 <ehird> basically boiling down to "but. is. this. universe. even. REAL?"
04:31:08 <Oranjer> I love it when a movie ends in an existential crisis
04:31:49 <Oranjer> I have yet to see a single one that does, I am afraid
04:32:11 <ehird> then how do you know you love it
04:32:17 <ehird> JUST ASKING THE OBVIOUS QUESTION HERE
04:32:38 <Oranjer> very well, I shall amend my original statement as per your observation
04:33:14 <madbrain> my, my, there is some philosophical thought going in here
04:33:20 <Oranjer> /I feel like I would enjoy/ a movie that ends in an existential crisis, if indeed such a movie exists
04:34:11 <Oranjer> you see, ehird? From what I have seen, E-prime makes explicit those things that normally divide most sides of a disagreement
04:34:40 <ehird> e-prime seems really superficial
04:34:51 <Oranjer> yes, it is largely dealing with semantics
04:34:52 <madbrain> e-prime? that's the english without the verb to be?
04:35:10 <Oranjer> I have used it for years in all my official documents
04:35:24 <Oranjer> and I gotta tell ya, it makes you seem hell of smarter
04:35:46 <ehird> like, a rationalist language that accounts for subjectivity on all levels, and integrates the scientific method and probability to have different levels of truth, so to speak
04:35:47 <ehird> would be interestingn
04:35:50 <Oranjer> also, it has helped me cut through the curvy-turvies of most modern ethical dilemmas
04:35:59 <ehird> but removing a few constructs from english does not a disambiguation make
04:36:12 <Oranjer> I try to go beyond just removing "to be"
04:36:12 <ehird> (or, less sillily worded, does not disambiguate :P)
04:37:03 <Oranjer> I also: try to avoid negations, try to avoid stative verbs, try to date and place my sentences, and try to make explicit the source(s) of the evidence my claims
04:37:22 <ehird> try to avoid negations
04:37:27 <Pthing> it just makes you sound rehearsed for nothing in particular
04:37:27 <Oranjer> do you have any evidence to support that, Pthing?
04:37:47 <Oranjer> You disagree with sounding rehearsed why...?
04:37:48 <ehird> Oranjer: remember? all truths are valid independently of their reasoning method
04:37:53 <Pthing> oh yeah i forgot you'd built a religion about things working
04:37:55 <ehird> ergo you demanding evidence is authoritarian
04:38:08 <ehird> epistemological anarchhism BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKFIRE
04:38:24 <madbrain> well, adjectives come in 2 forms
04:38:25 <Pthing> because the effect of it is that you are making a grand show
04:38:27 <ehird> you cannot challenge pthing's statement without making a claim as to what reasoning method he is using
04:38:33 <ehird> which would be authoritarian and incorrect
04:38:42 <ehird> this itself may be untrue
04:38:44 <ehird> as it was derived from logical reasoning
04:38:48 <madbrain> "The blue dog X" and "The dog is blue"
04:38:48 <ehird> which, by epistemological anarchism
04:38:51 <Oranjer> hardly, ehird--I say an idea's validity is independent of its source
04:38:54 <Pthing> what content there is is disguised in all this attempt to *sound* plain spoken
04:39:01 <Pthing> when instead you should just *be* plain spoken
04:39:07 <Pthing> rather than coming up with awkward theatrical tricks
04:39:27 <Pthing> you've used several rehearsed sentences so far repeatedly
04:39:31 <Pthing> <Oranjer> do you have any evidence to support that, Pthing?
04:39:40 <Pthing> it's by means of a catchphrase, isn't it
04:39:54 <ehird> overreaction much?
04:40:01 <ehird> I said what what, in the butt
04:40:08 <madbrain> In english, the epithet form of adjectives (The blue dog) is the default, and the attribute (The dog is blue) needs "to be", but there are plenty of languages where it's the other way around, ie adjectives are all verbs
04:40:10 <ehird> I said what what, Jesus fuck
04:40:14 <ehird> could make a good sequel.
04:40:23 <Oranjer> I despise the overblowing of misunderstandings and an air of the assumption of veracity
04:40:33 <ehird> do you realise that statement means nothing
04:40:38 <ehird> i mean, just inquiring
04:40:46 <Oranjer> I merely stated an opinion of my own
04:40:57 <Oranjer> you see, Pthing, that was hardly a catchphrase
04:40:58 <Pthing> can you think of a way to say what you just said
04:41:02 <Pthing> but *using fewer words*
04:41:13 <Oranjer> I shall think about it, and come back
04:41:26 <Pthing> isn't that another catchphrase?
04:41:26 <ehird> oh snap that was hard
04:41:38 <Pthing> <Oranjer> I shall think about it, and come back
04:41:49 <madbrain> you guys are thinking too hard about that stuff
04:41:49 <Oranjer> well, it was hardly intentional
04:42:04 <ehird> madbrain: no, Oranjer is making bullshit and we're anti-bullshitting it :P
04:42:20 <ehird> i think the reason this channel is so addictive is that it's brutally confrontational
04:42:42 <ehird> even interest in a language is expressed with a prod for details and an implied criticism if the details are wrong beforehand
04:42:49 <Oranjer> okay, Pthing, could you repeat what you said I should say in fewer words?
04:42:56 <ehird> it works and it's fun
04:43:08 <Pthing> of the false precision
04:43:16 <Pthing> "could you repeat what you said I should say"
04:43:21 <Pthing> you can see why that's nonsense, right
04:43:23 <madbrain> the more and more you analyze it, the hairier your model gets :D
04:43:23 <ehird> damn that almost rhymed
04:43:42 <Pthing> if I didn't say something once, *how can I repeat it*
04:44:13 <ehird> is it just me, or are we totally deconstructing Oranjer's reality piece by piece
04:44:15 <Oranjer> Pthing, now you're just arguing semantics, and that's a dick move, and I fear it is made outa spite
04:44:22 <ehird> poor guy didn't know what he was getting himself into
04:44:30 <ehird> please don't say arguing semantics
04:44:33 <Oranjer> actually, I suspected as muc, ehird
04:44:33 <Pthing> No, I am trying to show that you are talking in an unclear way
04:44:34 <ehird> the whole point of e-prime
04:44:42 <Pthing> general semantics, even
04:44:44 <ehird> he's arguing exactly what e-prime aims for
04:44:53 <ehird> and about that term in general
04:44:58 <ehird> semantics is literally the meaning of EVERYTHING
04:45:00 <ehird> what else CAN you argue
04:45:02 <Oranjer> *sigh* Pthing, I believe you're operating under the misconception that I am using e-prime, now, in irc chat
04:45:20 <Pthing> No, clues that you're not include the fact you keep using forms of "to be"
04:45:30 <ehird> i think "you're arguing semantics" means "you're making a criticism that i wish to dismiss as trivial because i don't want to reply to it"
04:45:31 <Pthing> However to return to your question.
04:45:35 <Pthing> What is it you wanted, exactly
04:45:39 <Pthing> did you want me to suggest a simpler form?
04:45:41 <ehird> Oranjer: maybe instead of using e-prime you should disambiguate things like "you're arguing semantics"
04:45:42 <Oranjer> a simple style choice, madbrain
04:46:11 <Pthing> then what did you want
04:46:36 <Oranjer> I have forgotten what statement of mine you referenced when you suggested that I rephrase said statement using fewer words
04:46:42 <madbrain> Although you could want to avoid the contraction as a kind of style effect
04:46:45 <ehird> worst sentence ever
04:46:50 <ehird> want me to rephrase it for you?
04:46:58 <Oranjer> sure, ehird, why the fuck not
04:47:07 <ehird> "What statement did you want me to rephrase with fewer words?"
04:47:07 <Pthing> "I despise the overblowing of misunderstandings and an air of the assumption of veracity"
04:47:18 <ehird> unlike the one you said, it's not an incomprehensible tongue-twister
04:47:20 <Oranjer> yes, ehird, I prefer your version
04:47:44 <ehird> the problem with yours is that it keeps referencing "the statement" in different ways
04:47:44 <madbrain> But yeah, e-prime is silly, there's probably a good reason why english uses "to be" all over the place
04:47:56 <ehird> which means you have to constantly figure out what statement it refers to each time
04:48:00 <Oranjer> yes, madbrain, it mainly uses it as a copula
04:48:57 <ehird> you need to be put in mental institutions.
04:48:57 <Pthing> did you come up with a plainer way to say that yet
04:49:14 <Oranjer> holy shit, ehird, I just reread the sentence you're criticizing, and it really is pretty bad
04:49:49 <Pthing> despite your, uh, despising an air of the assumption of veracity
04:50:21 <Oranjer> Does the action of posting a sentence here indicate the level of certainty I place in it?
04:50:51 <Oranjer> yes, a portmanteau of Besides and Regardless
04:51:20 <ehird> yeah, most people spell that "Besides"
04:51:25 <Pthing> of epistemic theories that Just Work
04:51:32 <Pthing> have you been diagnosed with any actual mental disorders
04:51:39 <ehird> they are AUTHORITARIAN
04:51:46 <Pthing> or schizoid personality disorders?
04:51:58 <ehird> Pthing: you have not ruled out the possibility that he hasn't given anyone the opportunity to
04:52:09 <ehird> Pthing: why, does that make him any less crazy
04:52:41 <ehird> :( does not open a () pair, dude
04:53:02 <ehird> it's called an opinion.
04:53:18 <Oranjer> yes, but an opinion masquerading as an absolute fact
04:53:42 <ehird> obviously everything I say as "I think"
04:53:49 <ehird> but I could be hallucinating the world
04:53:56 <ehird> and therefore it could be false
04:54:08 <ehird> do you instantly believe everything people say?
04:54:14 <ehird> if not, then you already mentally insert "I think"
04:54:31 <Oranjer> actually, I do instantly believe everything people say
04:54:46 <Oranjer> I then immediately test what they just said to my perception of reality
04:54:51 <Oranjer> and I determine its validity
04:54:53 <ehird> Oranjer does not exist
04:54:59 <ehird> HOW CAN YOU DETERMINE ANYTHING NOW
04:55:02 <Pthing> then you output a debug message informing them that this is what you are doing
04:55:16 <ehird> i think i just killed him
04:55:24 <ehird> Oranjer: you don't exist
04:55:25 <ehird> you believe it yourself
04:55:32 <ehird> since you don't exist you have had no opportunity to test or doubt this
04:56:01 <Oranjer> hmmmm this apparent paradox does reveal a flaw in my reasoning...
04:56:23 <Oranjer> also, can you not imagine a nonexistent, talking thing?
04:56:39 <ehird> yes, but that doesn't mean it exists
04:56:43 <ehird> it cannot exist, by definition
04:56:53 <ehird> and what does not exist cannot interact with reality, that is, the collection of things that exist
04:57:04 <ehird> therefore, obviously a nonexistent, talking thing cannot talk to me
04:57:08 <Sgeo> Hm, there's two ways to apply "nonexistant"
04:57:18 <Sgeo> At least, in context of imagining something
04:58:56 <ehird> a tapestry of dicks
04:59:26 <Oranjer> also, my believing that I do not exist does not preclude my existence
04:59:30 <Pthing> i don't think you can tile a plane with dicks
05:00:12 <ehird> Oranjer: you believe that you do not exist, and a nonexistent thing patently cannot think in this world (by my prior reasoning)
05:00:22 <ehird> therefore, by your own belief, you cannot consider whether you exist or not to later deny it
05:00:36 <ehird> considering so would be to deny your belief
05:00:49 <Oranjer> ah, but I am already thinking, and I can use that to invalidate such a beliefe
05:01:14 <ehird> Oranjer thinking is the most abhorrent activity he could do
05:01:15 <Oranjer> who says I cannot deny a belief, once I believe it? I must deny it, in fact, to test it's validity
05:01:19 <ehird> have fun being abhorrent
05:01:43 <ehird> ah, but before you disagreed you accepted it
05:01:47 <Pthing> couldn't you at least keep all your cartesian doubt in your inside voice
05:01:50 <ehird> so for that fleeting moment where you considered before denying it
05:01:53 <ehird> you were abhorrent
05:02:06 <ehird> so you agree, your actions were abhorrent
05:02:12 <Oranjer> but then I remembered many abhorrent things I have done in my past to invalidate that belief
05:02:26 <ehird> thus, even though the time is passed, you still consider them abhorrent by my reasoning
05:02:40 <Oranjer> that's totally flawed! whoa
05:02:45 <ehird> [05:01] ehird: so for that fleeting moment where you considered before denying it
05:02:45 <ehird> [05:01] ehird: you were abhorrent
05:02:46 <ehird> [05:01] Oranjer: I was
05:02:48 <ehird> it's what you thought yourself
05:03:09 <Oranjer> but I have since invalidated that belief
05:03:39 <Oranjer> I believe I was acting abhorrent, but I do not still believe I was acting abhorrent
05:03:56 <ehird> "I believe X but I do not still believe X"
05:04:02 <ehird> you phrased that wrong
05:04:08 <ehird> "I believed I was acting abhorrent, but I don't now"
05:05:58 <Oranjer> yeah, let's just put all that under several bridges
05:06:18 <madbrain> One of my teachers suggested that languages become more isolative as they evolve
05:06:37 <Pthing> it does seem to be kind of a general rule yeah
05:08:24 <ehird> let's talk about candy floss.
05:09:24 <ehird> what exactly did I say that was unclear?
05:09:27 <ehird> i said let's talk about candy floss.
05:09:40 <Oranjer> I have no idea what that is
05:09:47 <madbrain> I think they implied that more isolative languages tended to have an advantage "against" less isolative ones
05:10:00 <Oranjer> oh, that's a different claim entirely
05:10:16 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_candy
05:10:25 <Pthing> i gathered it wasn't so much an advantage as a result of what happens when morphosyntactic systems have to adjust to sound changes
05:10:37 <ehird> (I'm just trying to move immediately from intellectual nonsense to candy floss, you understand)
05:10:42 <Oranjer> oh, cotton candy, I had just googled it, indeed
05:10:49 <Pthing> which tend to afflict, like, the ends of words where often a lot of morphosyntactic information is kept
05:10:58 <Pthing> so agglutinative grammars become more fusional
05:11:02 <Oranjer> ah, yes, Pthing, I had heard of that
05:11:02 <Pthing> which become more isolating
05:11:16 <Oranjer> I compare that to genetic drift, really
05:11:42 <Oranjer> I haven't had it in a while
05:12:12 <ehird> wouldn't it be awesome if they made candy floss... that you could actually floss with
05:12:48 <Oranjer> I believe that would defeat the purpose of flossing--although, candy floss-flavored floss is pretty okay
05:13:11 <Oranjer> I meant that as (candy floss)-flavored floss
05:13:25 <Oranjer> not a candy version of floss that tastes like floss
05:14:03 <madbrain> pthing: Possibly... well, it's definitely the case of west european languages like French
05:14:34 <ehird> "pthing:"? did you actually type that out
05:14:38 <madbrain> dunno if it applies to chinese though
05:14:45 <Oranjer> but now, Pthing, what do you think about this so called advantage?
05:14:54 <Pthing> i do not know what he means
05:14:55 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
05:14:58 <Oranjer> but I obviously prefer the comma verson
05:14:58 <Pthing> so I do not know what to think
05:15:05 <ehird> Oranjer: i meant...
05:15:19 <ehird> who types out pthing, I type out p and press tab and get "Pthing:"
05:15:49 <Oranjer> I have never noticed that, thanks
05:16:16 <Oranjer> you should know I only heard about irc two weeks ago
05:16:27 <Oranjer> but I only started using it two weeks ago
05:17:13 <ehird> this channel's been around since 2002! and if you could misinterpret that as me saying I've been around here since 2002, I'd have absolutely no qualms with that
05:17:45 <Oranjer> I hereby misinterpret to the conclusion that you have been around here since 2002
05:18:12 <ehird> oh, it's like all of my dreams have suddenly come true
05:20:00 <madbrain> Are you guys students or working?
05:20:18 <Oranjer> I have never worked an honest day in my life
05:20:28 <ehird> is that really something to be proud of
05:20:42 <ehird> anyway, I'm just a random kid
05:21:22 <Oranjer> are you a random consistent kid, or a consistently random kid?
05:21:34 <Oranjer> do you change up randomly every type you type?
05:21:50 <ehird> i'm an arbitrary kid
05:22:19 <Oranjer> as I always say, multiplicity in validity likely indicates ambiguity
05:23:13 <Oranjer> also, what does that arrow mean as a logical connector?
05:23:38 <ehird> i'm pointing up, see
05:23:42 <madbrain> oranjer: multiplicity in validity isn't always ambiguity, I'd think
05:23:49 <ehird> madbrain: STOP ENCOURAGING HIM
05:24:11 <Oranjer> hey, ehird, let the madbrain explain its reasoning
05:24:27 <Oranjer> also, I did not say always
05:25:13 <Oranjer> I try to make explicit the difference between "rules followed" and "a pattern observed"
05:25:32 <madbrain> it all depends on what you're studying
05:26:06 <Oranjer> oh? elucidate, please-o-please
05:26:14 <madbrain> in music theory, rules are often fuzzy and have multiple validity for instance
05:26:46 <Oranjer> ah! what do you mean by these 'rules'? (I'm not trying to be pretensious, "rule" has a ton of meanings)
05:27:13 <madbrain> "rule" is a bit of a strong term yeah
05:27:20 <Oranjer> I mean a rule as a procedure for generating the next step
05:27:43 <Oranjer> also, madbrain, I think I should explain where I come from
05:28:38 <Oranjer> I use the statement really to indicate my own dislike for the strict, slavish following of a largely arbitrarily chosen standard
05:28:48 <Oranjer> as in, grading systems in most educational institutions
05:29:54 <Oranjer> because different places have different definitions of an "A" on down, (and others use a different means of grading entirely), then there probably exists a disconnect with reality
05:30:32 <madbrain> yeah grades are kindof arbitrary in a way yes
05:30:45 <Oranjer> as in, the existence of multiple claims to validity require either each to either be invalid, or to have a situational backing
05:31:38 <madbrain> I think they exist more as a technique to get students to work harder, figure out which student can get into a special program with only N places, and so on
05:32:00 <Oranjer> ah! I am not questioning the invalidity of of the system
05:32:26 <Oranjer> I am merely asking "why do some places stop "A" at 90, and others stop it at 92?"
05:32:41 <madbrain> because A has to stop somewhere
05:32:49 <Oranjer> each place presumably follows their own standard strictly
05:32:54 <Oranjer> ah, but then why the difference?
05:33:17 <madbrain> because nobody decided to take the time to make a national standard probably, no?
05:33:20 <Oranjer> the stopping point is chosen arbitrarily, and therefore, invalid, or it has a situational backing in research
05:33:44 <Oranjer> a global standard, you mean--other countries use entirely different scales
05:33:54 <ehird> it's just that it's more convenient to say A
05:34:06 <ehird> or are you saying that categorisation is inherently wrong?
05:34:09 <Oranjer> It's not necessarily invalid
05:34:14 <ehird> and that you cannot group related grades?
05:34:15 <madbrain> also, at some point the result system is going to have to be quantized
05:34:18 <ehird> if so, them's fighting words; also stupid words
05:34:18 <Oranjer> do you see that disjunction up there?
05:35:11 <Oranjer> yes, madbrain, I would agree, within this current system, a form of grade quantification is largely necessary
05:35:26 <Oranjer> but where do we draw the line between A and B?
05:36:25 <ehird> arbitrarily, by definition
05:37:26 <madbrain> Well, considering you have such grades as A- and B+ available, you can spread the grades in such a way so that all the grade range will have meaningful steps available
05:37:49 <Oranjer> ah! exactly! that's hardly arbitrary criteria
05:38:05 <Oranjer> also, I like "meaningful steps"
05:38:05 <ehird> it's just shorthand for a range
05:38:09 <ehird> these people are 70-90
05:38:16 <ehird> it doesn't mean that someone below is bad
05:38:18 <ehird> they could be 69, see?
05:38:26 <ehird> it's just useful for general grouping
05:38:29 <ehird> nothing to get worked up about
05:38:44 <ehird> i think you're giving too much importance
05:38:48 <ehird> to simple aliases for ranges
05:38:54 <Oranjer> I said, I do not disagree with the use of shorthand for grade ranges
05:39:16 <Oranjer> I only disagree with arbitrarily chosen differences between the ranges
05:40:08 <madbrain> I think I've seen something along the line of 96%+ ->A+, 93%=A, 90=A-, 87=B+, 84=B, 81=B-, 78=C+, 75=C, 72=C-, 69=D+, 65=D
05:41:06 <Oranjer> grading systems aren't the only systems that humans use that have arbitrarily determined facets
05:41:26 <Oranjer> mind you, most of that arbitrariness is necessary, as here
05:41:57 <madbrain> Well, then, they use system with arbitrariness, the arbitrariness is necessary, what's the problem
05:42:37 <Oranjer> I am concerned about what I have observed as a general inability for such systems to change according to new evidence, evidence that would render the set of available choices not-so-arbitrary
05:43:25 <Oranjer> basically, I say that the arbitrariness should be made explicit, and not to be assumed as the absolutely correct choice
05:43:26 <madbrain> Ah, well then your problem is not with arbitrariness, it's with the general tendency for inertia
05:44:01 <ehird> as i get more tired
05:44:01 <ehird> you both get more boring
05:44:46 <madbrain> Well, the tendency for inertia is not any sort of philosophical problem
05:45:08 <Oranjer> as it leaves a system open for fuck-ups
05:45:20 <Oranjer> *the possibility of fuck-ups
05:45:31 <madbrain> That still has nothing to do with philosophy, that's more politics
05:46:21 <Oranjer> mind you, this is getting dangerously close to us arguing "what is philosophy?", which may bore ehird to death
05:48:24 <madbrain> It's just based on all sorts of pragmatic reasons and decision making processes
05:48:49 <ehird> Oranjer: my boredom is actually gnawing away at my intestine
05:49:02 <Oranjer> "there's nothing deep with it" huh
05:49:07 <ehird> i should have a stroke in approximately five minutes
05:49:40 <ehird> my intestines really aren't liking this.
05:50:18 <Oranjer> shall we discuss my procedurally generated platforming game idea? or do you find that boring as well?
05:50:26 <ehird> ooh, that sounds fun!
05:50:46 <madbrain> I think designed gameplay is better than procedural
05:50:49 <ehird> by procedural, you do mean based on past gameplay, as opposed to just random-given-these-constraints, right?
05:51:08 <ehird> as in, the game generates levels that are hard for you to complete
05:51:14 <Oranjer> mostly the latter, but it would work in the first
05:51:20 <ehird> based on where you stumbled and succeeded at other points
05:51:29 <ehird> thus, it really would keep getting harder and harder
05:51:33 <Oranjer> actually, that's a good idea, I hadn't thought of that
05:51:41 <Oranjer> a learning procedural game? oy vey
05:51:47 <Oranjer> also, madbrain, why do you think so?
05:51:53 <Oranjer> and what do mean by designed?
05:52:13 <ehird> spend half an hour failing one jump and the next level is an optimal packing of as many of those jumps as possible :)
05:52:13 <madbrain> Like you put tiles/game objects/whatever explicitly in an editor of some sort
05:52:35 <ehird> haha, that's a rather pathological case though
05:52:36 <Oranjer> I disagree with your opinion, then, madbrain
05:53:15 <Oranjer> yes, "designed" games as you say are more personal and what not, but I would like to see if the same effect can result from procedurally generated content
05:53:26 <madbrain> I think that procedurally generated levels, while having a certain diversity, can't have the depth of a designed level
05:53:35 <ehird> them's fighting words
05:53:40 <ehird> equivalent to "strong AI cannot exist"
05:53:49 <Oranjer> it's okay, he's right--well, he's right now
05:53:51 <ehird> which is simply false, unless you make ridiculous spiritual assumptions
05:54:09 <ehird> Oranjer: yes, currently, procedural generation cannot match the depth of designed levels
05:54:16 <Oranjer> yeah, I agree with ehird--we don't want no goddamn bio-chauvinists here
05:54:16 <madbrain> Well, as of yet, based on what I've seen, it is true
05:54:18 <ehird> it can be useful in areas other than total design of a level
05:54:32 <ehird> the possibility of strong AI means that we can have perfect procedural levels
05:54:36 <madbrain> Of course if someone designs some miraculous AI algorithm then this might change
05:54:40 <ehird> well, as good as us, at least
05:54:47 <ehird> It's not miraculous
05:54:49 <Oranjer> I made the lack of emotional attachment to the content an explicit issue
05:54:58 <ehird> Given a planet-sized supercomputer, we could simulate a human brain today
05:55:02 <madbrain> But as of now that strong AI does not exist yet
05:55:04 <ehird> It'd just be really, really tedious
05:55:08 <Oranjer> hey! no AI talk here! come on!!!
05:55:14 <ehird> Oranjer: whyever not?
05:55:32 <Oranjer> well, we all already agree on it
05:55:36 <ehird> madbrain: I'd content that strong AI does exist... 's called homo sapiens :P
05:55:41 <ehird> Oranjer: It's fun, though!
05:56:03 <Oranjer> I know...but I had some other ideas central to my game that I wanted to share...:(
05:56:06 <ehird> be careful about telling the AI to make fun levels first thing, though
05:56:18 <ehird> they'll just replace the whole universe with a huge level
05:56:21 <ehird> singularity first, games later!!
05:56:25 <ehird> Oranjer: sure, go on :P
05:57:10 <Oranjer> the first step was to ignore all previous assumptions about the traditional divisions between "enemy", "object", "npc", "wall", "platform"
05:57:28 <ehird> gamestemological anarchism
05:57:37 <ehird> you are a wall, a platform, an enemy, an object, an npc, and the player
05:57:39 <ehird> AND SO IS EVERYTHING ELSE
05:57:46 <ehird> they are all equally valid methods of game objecting
05:58:02 <ehird> TYPECASTING GAME OBJECTS TO ONE OF THEM IS FASCSISM
05:58:04 <Oranjer> and yes, there can be a wall/platform/enemy/object/npc
05:58:24 <ehird> you do realise you can talk while i blabber, right?
05:58:26 <madbrain> oranjer: sounds like a good step to try to design a new genre but what did you came up with from that position?
05:58:52 <Oranjer> I simply intend to suggest an alternative means of categorization
05:59:06 <Oranjer> dependent solely on a /thing/'s relation to the player
05:59:14 <madbrain> well what's your new categorization
05:59:16 <ehird> meaningful relationships of game objects
05:59:25 <Oranjer> because each thing's characteristics are determined randomly
06:00:14 <Oranjer> so, if something has a combination of the characteristics of "removes health from player when the player touches it" and "moves toward player when it enters within X units", then the player would likely classify that as an "enemy"
06:00:35 <ehird> this is sounding like one of them over-complex rpg-style thingummies :P
06:00:49 <ehird> I mean tabletop sort of thing
06:00:53 <Oranjer> it is hardly complex, merely a platformer
06:00:55 <ehird> Ontological object system! shut up I just want to shoot some things that are shooting me
06:01:12 <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics?
06:01:38 <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
06:01:49 <madbrain> also, how do you ensure that more or less any combination is possible
06:02:05 <Oranjer> context-specific generation, of course
06:02:11 <ehird> `addquote <Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
06:02:13 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
06:02:36 <Oranjer> that the player can, at any time, press a single key to skip the current level
06:02:48 <Oranjer> so as to avoid even the possibility of the generation of an impossible level
06:02:54 <Oranjer> of course, this posed a problem
06:03:01 <madbrain> but then he could skip all the levels yeah
06:03:24 <Oranjer> well, there's an unlimited number of levels, as each level is generated when you start it
06:03:28 <ehird> just make it so that progression in the level difficulty, setting, reward etc,
06:03:32 <ehird> depends on how much you achieive
06:03:44 <ehird> so skipping generates a new level, but doesn't let you get any further, so to speak
06:03:52 <ehird> it's a level from the same prototype
06:04:17 <Oranjer> "how do I convince the player to explore each level instead of just holding down the skip button until they see something they like?"
06:04:39 <Oranjer> (rewards was my answer--specifically, rewards the player can carry through and use throughout the levels
06:05:02 <Oranjer> and no, ehird, the skip button would likely generate an entirely different level--but that's a good suggestion, thanks
06:05:18 <ehird> I just mean parameters like
06:05:22 <madbrain> well, the most rewarding thing in a game is to be presented with a hard task, needing many tries, and eventually solving it
06:05:29 <ehird> what selection of enemies can be used
06:05:57 <Oranjer> true, so I guess that is a good idea
06:06:01 <Oranjer> I see what you two mean now
06:06:17 <Oranjer> that the completion of a level is rewarded with more challenging levels later on
06:06:29 <Oranjer> (dammit, saying that seems so obvious)
06:06:43 <ehird> Oranjer: i think you should try out each separate idea in a little minigame before combining them
06:06:50 <ehird> the procedural generation + objects based on aspects instead of a predefined type
06:06:54 <Oranjer> or...make them multiple options?
06:07:01 <ehird> I mean as prototypes
06:07:02 <madbrain> Like, the best levels in lemmings are the ones that are short, not tedious, but really complicated
06:07:07 <ehird> since doing both at once would be quite a task
06:07:15 <ehird> Oranjer: have you played infinite mario?
06:07:32 <Oranjer> I actually found that after I thought up this idea
06:07:37 <ehird> Oranjer: imagine infinite mario bros, but done with procedural generation
06:07:41 <ehird> Oranjer: the anti-player procedural genereration
06:07:54 <ehird> do it in screenfuls
06:07:55 <Oranjer> what do you mean by anti-player?
06:08:00 <ehird> when you go past one screen
06:08:06 <ehird> it generates a new screen and scrolls on to it
06:08:12 <ehird> (so not screenfuls, do it by column)
06:08:16 <ehird> Oranjer: it'd be based on where you stumbled
06:08:23 <ehird> if you stay in one place trying to execute a jump
06:08:30 <ehird> then there'll be more of that kind of jump
06:08:33 <ehird> if you keep dying because of an enemy
06:08:36 <ehird> (you'd have multiple lives)
06:08:42 <ehird> that enemy would be more common
06:08:47 <Oranjer> oh, you'd have infinite tries for each level, of course
06:08:59 <ehird> you go back to where you were before your dying move
06:09:10 <ehird> since in this mini game thing, there'd just be one big level
06:09:12 <ehird> anyway, every time the screen scrolls right to reveal another few columns, it's optimised against you
06:09:22 <ehird> based on what you've been failing and succeeding at in the recent past
06:09:36 <ehird> so basically, the level itself, until you stop playing,
06:09:40 <ehird> actually reflects how you played in its structure
06:09:53 <ehird> i think it'd be great fun, and probably not too hard to implement
06:10:04 <Oranjer> well, ehird, no offense, but that's your idea
06:10:10 <ehird> cloning infinite mario is easy, so it's just a procedural generator + some parameter tweaking based on past performance
06:10:15 <Oranjer> I'm glad that I sorta inspired that
06:10:16 <ehird> Oranjer: i was just giving one example of an idea
06:10:40 <ehird> like, something like that has enough value in itself, that i think you could look into something similar before the combined version
06:10:41 <Oranjer> but it seems that what you suggest is...not...exactly...what I had in mind
06:10:46 <ehird> because combining all the aspects would be a pain
06:10:50 <ehird> Oranjer: as i said, it was an example
06:10:57 <ehird> of how you can make a game entirely based around one part
06:11:05 <ehird> which is good ffor prototyping them
06:11:18 <Oranjer> but I think it's a good enough example that one could, nay, should make an entirely separate game about that
06:11:45 <Oranjer> and therefore, if you want, you should
06:12:14 <ehird> i never could get the hang of pygame and the like
06:12:28 <Oranjer> I could never get the hang of python
06:12:50 <ehird> how can you not get the hang of python? it's ridiculously orthodox and simple
06:13:14 <ehird> because of slowness?
06:13:25 <ehird> what then, the REPL?
06:13:34 <Oranjer> because I have no fucking clue what it does!
06:13:48 <Oranjer> how does one write a program in python?
06:13:57 <ehird> put it in a file, save it, "python file.py"
06:13:58 <Oranjer> in a text editor, then saving it as...? what?
06:14:09 <ehird> do you use windows or something?
06:14:13 <Oranjer> WHY THE FUCK WAS THAT SO HARD FOR ME TO FIND
06:14:27 <Oranjer> of Course I use windows, because I am in idiot
06:14:46 <ehird> yeah, i was wondering how you could possibly have trouble with running the python command :)
06:14:47 <Oranjer> next: how do I run the .py file?
06:15:00 <Oranjer> what the hell does that mean?
06:15:06 <ehird> Oranjer: have you... installed ... python?
06:15:17 <ehird> it should have added IDLE to your menus.
06:15:27 <ehird> find the Python menu, and open IDLE.
06:15:51 <Oranjer> I use capslock as a sorta quasimodal command line
06:15:59 <Oranjer> I hold down capslock, anywhere,
06:16:02 <ehird> i know what enso is
06:16:05 <ehird> and it's explicitly non-modal
06:16:12 <ehird> it was made by the son of jef raskin after all
06:16:24 <Oranjer> holy shit, mate, you're the first person who knew all that stuff outside of me telling you
06:16:38 <ehird> interaction design is awesome.
06:17:00 <Oranjer> (mind you, I love to take the whole quasimode idea perhaps a bit too far)
06:17:18 <Oranjer> and I type python filename.py
06:17:29 <ehird> IDLE is a GUI interface to python, and an editor for it
06:17:37 <ehird> if you're using windows, the command line has totally anemic facilities
06:17:40 <ehird> so no point using it
06:17:48 <ehird> Oranjer: what's there is a python console
06:17:56 <ehird> it pops up a python shell
06:17:57 <ehird> you can enter lines of python
06:18:02 <ehird> and see the results just by pressing enter
06:18:07 <ehird> you can also open and save files (with syntax highlighting)
06:18:11 <Oranjer> so, I type in IDLE "python filename.py
06:18:19 <ehird> you run the program IDLE
06:18:28 <ehird> it's a windows program included with the Python distribution
06:18:48 <ehird> it pops up a python shell, where you can enter lines of python and see the results by hitting enter
06:18:55 <ehird> you can also open and save files with python syntax-highlighting
06:19:04 <Oranjer> so, how do I open filename.py?
06:19:11 <ehird> and press F5 or F8 or something (see the menus for the shortcut) to run the current file in the shell
06:19:14 <ehird> Oranjer: see the IDLE menus.
06:20:05 <ehird> being a programmer on windows is a pain... unless you use microsoft languages...
06:20:06 <Oranjer> okay, I just went to File...Open...and I found a .py file on my computer
06:20:19 <ehird> it's a gui, it's all in the menus, including the shortcuts
06:20:42 <ehird> only the window that IDLE first opened is the shell
06:20:45 <ehird> the other windows are file windows
06:21:15 <ehird> right, in one of the menus in the file window there's a Run Module command
06:21:26 <ehird> that will reset the current shell session
06:21:38 <ehird> you can experiment with code by entering it in the shell, then moving it to the file
06:22:12 <Oranjer> because there is on run module anywhere
06:22:20 <Oranjer> there is only Open Module...
06:22:22 <ehird> ooooooookay let me open IDLE haven't used it in ages
06:23:20 <Oranjer> you said in the shell's menu's...or...I heard that....dammit
06:23:52 <Oranjer> huh okay the file had an error but I think it "worked"
06:24:14 <ehird> just make a file with
06:24:16 <ehird> print "Hello, world!"
06:24:20 <ehird> guaranteed to work :P
06:24:46 <Oranjer> it seems I have forgotten (given up on after all this didn't work for me) the language
06:24:56 <madbrain> bastard tetris might be unwinnable
06:25:07 <Oranjer> all tetris is unwinnable, madbrain
06:25:23 <ehird> Oranjer: anyway, you can enter lines into the shell to test out new code
06:25:28 <Oranjer> do you mean it is impossible to get any lines, madbrain?
06:25:36 <ehird> Oranjer: as a tip, until you need to have the "final" thing
06:25:43 <ehird> Oranjer: ready to run as a thing in itself, that is
06:25:53 <ehird> put all the stuff in functions and classes
06:25:56 <ehird> and have a main() function
06:25:59 <ehird> so that you can press run module
06:26:03 <ehird> and it'll actually load the module in the shell
06:26:09 <ehird> so everything in your file is in the shell
06:26:14 <ehird> and you can run code as if it was in the file
06:26:16 <ehird> to test things, etc
06:26:36 <ehird> i wish people wouldn't say uhh to really simple stuff :|
06:26:56 <Oranjer> simple? simply to you--I say uhhhh because I know it is simple to you, but I do not understand it
06:28:03 <ehird> the shell is the python shell window that IDLE opens at the start
06:28:13 <ehird> you can enter some python code, hit enter, and see the results
06:28:17 <ehird> (type 2+2 in it and hit enter)
06:28:39 <Oranjer> an error comes up when I type in main() function
06:28:45 <ehird> type in what exactly
06:29:13 <Oranjer> also, a different error when I just type in "main()"
06:29:23 <ehird> when did I say "main() function" was valid python code
06:29:35 <Oranjer> (1:25:37 AM) ehird: put all the stuff in functions and classes
06:29:35 <Oranjer> (1:25:40 AM) ehird: and have a main() function
06:29:35 <Oranjer> (1:25:44 AM) ehird: so that you can press run module
06:29:49 <ehird> yes, that is, have a function called main()
06:30:12 <ehird> presumably, you have not defined a function called main().
06:30:32 <coppro> then type the body in indented code
06:30:39 <coppro> then have a non-indented line
06:30:43 <ehird> it auto-indents, coppro.
06:30:43 <Oranjer> yeah, using whitespace as blocks is awesome
06:31:00 <ehird> just hit enter twice after the last line and it's defined
06:31:05 <ehird> defining main() in the shell is pointless
06:31:15 <coppro> ehird: I don't use IDLE
06:31:20 <ehird> Oranjer: it's just to put your stuff in in a file
06:31:25 <coppro> Oranjer: the shell is a line-by-line interpreter
06:31:29 <ehird> Oranjer: so that you can hit Run Module, and instead of running your whole program and exiting
06:31:46 <ehird> coppro: are you getting the distinct feeling of bashing your head against a brick wall?
06:31:59 <ehird> i think Oranjer is leaking memories, first he forgot the shell that i explained earlier, then the file he had open...
06:32:05 <coppro> anyone for Omega Chess?
06:32:22 -!- rodgort has changed nick to ivank`.
06:32:25 <Oranjer> oh, that file? the file I opened?
06:32:33 <ehird> playing mario while constantly holding the go faster button is hard
06:32:53 <Oranjer> that means you can't shoot fire
06:32:57 <ehird> "In this quarter-second, you will discover there is a large gaping chasm in front of you"
06:33:04 <coppro> ehird: which emulator?
06:33:11 <ehird> well, not mario, Infinite mario bros
06:33:26 <ehird> the worst part is enemies
06:33:30 <ehird> you just gotta hope you don't run into any
06:33:37 <coppro> the VBA distributed with Ubuntu has some issues :(
06:33:47 <Oranjer> okay so uh how do I manipulate files in the shell?
06:34:08 <ehird> Oranjer: like, what do you mean
06:34:10 <ehird> what do you want to do
06:34:15 <coppro> Oranjer: the shell is where you type in code
06:34:17 <ehird> haha i just walked the fuck under one of those jumpy pipe flower things
06:34:22 <ehird> coppro: misleadingg
06:34:50 <coppro> a file is where you put python code
06:34:55 <coppro> you tell python to run that file
06:35:09 <Oranjer> okay, so, in the shell, I define main()--how do I put that in a file?
06:35:26 <coppro> you don't define main in a shell
06:35:28 <coppro> because you don't need it
06:35:29 <ehird> only forth works like that :P
06:35:40 <Oranjer> I defined main() in a shell
06:35:42 <ehird> I've a feeling we've gone about 7,429 steps ahead of Oranjer, coppro
06:35:51 <coppro> Oranjer: do you program at all?
06:36:10 <ehird> "not recently, as in, at all"?
06:36:12 <coppro> anyways, I have to go to bed
06:36:14 <ehird> is that a way of saying "no"?
06:36:16 <coppro> have fun with ehird :P
06:36:20 <Oranjer> I'm used to html/javascript/css
06:36:29 <ehird> only javascript is a language out of all of those.
06:38:31 <madbrain> is anyone interested in sound synthesis?
06:38:33 <ehird> i'm sorta not going to teach you the entire practice of programming from scratch, I'm afraid
06:38:43 <Oranjer> no, ehird, that is not necessary
06:38:49 <ehird> he's interested in algorithmic composition
06:38:57 <coppro> Oranjer: read a tutorial. They suck almost unilaterally, but whatever.
06:38:59 <ehird> to sound synthesis?
06:39:06 <Oranjer> I have, coppro, most of it
06:39:09 <ehird> Oranjer: diveintopython.org
06:39:13 <ehird> it's slightly outdated
06:39:17 <ehird> mark pilgrim is cool
06:39:31 <Oranjer> also, madbrain, are you refering to the maxim that "every two songs are remixable together"?
06:39:34 <coppro> also, decide if you want P3K, which is new and shiny, or 2.6, which is old bnut works
06:39:43 <ehird> you don't want p3k
06:40:06 <madbrain> No I'm not referring to algorithmic composition
06:40:36 <Oranjer> what are you referring to then? Don't keep us guessing!
06:40:56 <ehird> that's what he said.
06:40:59 <Oranjer> any...alternative names for that concept?
06:41:01 <madbrain> I'm referring to basically synthesizing sound from parameters
06:41:10 <madbrain> ie like a synthesizer keyboard
06:41:30 <Oranjer> oh! that's the opposite idea i had when I said the previous oh!
06:42:42 <madbrain> Like, suppose your synthesizer is controlled by midi, when you get a message to generate a D5, how do you do it?
06:44:27 <madbrain> well, usually it comes from a MIDI keyboard (ie physical keyboard that the user is playing on) or a sequencer (ie software that plays a recorded sequence of notes/controllers/etc)
06:45:35 <coppro> sound synthesis is actually a very neat concept
06:45:55 <madbrain> obviously, depending on which algorithm you use, you get different sounds
06:47:26 <Oranjer> (my game)-->(making games)-->(pygame)-->(me learning how to use python! finally!) //// (sound synthesis)
06:47:48 <ehird> i'm unsure of what //// means
06:47:49 <madbrain> like, one popular algorithm is to play a recording of an instrument note faster or slower
06:48:33 <Oranjer> I guess //// means "completely unrelated"--I guess I could have used a semicolon, but that hardly connotes the cutting motion
06:48:46 <madbrain> oranjer: well, that's because your library handles the audio mixing and stuff for you
06:50:17 <Oranjer> sound synthesis: what now?
06:50:21 <madbrain> which might be more or less complex depending on what music format you use
06:50:39 <madbrain> oranjer: well, I was just curious if anyone else in here was interested in the topic
06:50:55 <Oranjer> oh, no, please, continue, I'm fine with the subject at hand
06:51:22 <Oranjer> but I think my connection's woozy, and I think I am receiving comments much later after you send them
06:51:33 <Oranjer> so to me, I think, it's some silence
06:51:58 <madbrain> like, if it's .mid, obviously it's going to be played on some sort of synthesizer
06:52:47 <madbrain> .mp3 or .ogg will be decoded ofc
06:54:12 <fungot> Oranjer: i think i have a makefile? i
06:55:14 <madbrain> heh espernet is netsplitting like crazy
06:55:26 <Oranjer> well basically uhh I kinda wanna talk about my game if it's uh---what, madbrain?
06:56:08 <madbrain> netsplit is when irc servers have connection problems and disconnect from each other
06:56:21 <ehird> i wish Oranjer could carry on conversations about everything else as uncluelessly as he does random epistemology crap
06:56:21 <Oranjer> wait, irc servers are connected to each other?
06:56:35 <ehird> freenode, efnet, all the networks, are made up of a bunch of connected servers
06:56:37 <ehird> to handle all the loud
06:56:42 <ehird> each network is a network of servers
06:56:45 <ehird> the networks aren't linked
06:56:55 <ehird> when two servers in a network disconnect, each sees the people from the other leave
06:57:00 <ehird> until whatever happened is fixed
06:57:02 <Oranjer> then I fear I have been using the wrong terminology
06:57:12 <ehird> (usually they automatically return in a minute or two due to automatic restarting of the server)
06:57:59 <Oranjer> wait, uncluelessly? what do you mean by that?
06:58:18 <ehird> you keep going "uhh" and stuff :P
06:58:33 <Oranjer> I shall cease all such utterances immediately
06:59:32 <madbrain> oranjer: well, what sort of stuff are you interested in?
06:59:55 <Oranjer> changing the world, of course
06:59:58 <ehird> madbrain: come on, mere minutes into him entering here
07:00:04 <ehird> i would have been able to tell you
07:00:06 <ehird> that asking that of him
07:00:11 <ehird> is a very bad idea
07:00:25 <ehird> run! RUN! This place may be safe again in a few years!
07:00:47 <Oranjer> using nomics for a greater purpose then survival--as in, the nomic creates something bigger and more persistent than itself
07:01:32 <Oranjer> I mean, you already know I'm working on a characteristica universalis
07:01:57 <ehird> changing the world, greater-than-self nomic
07:02:03 <ehird> two goals of equal importance and magnitude.
07:02:29 <ehird> what nomics do you play
07:02:31 <Oranjer> I mean, have you heard of esquisite corpse?
07:02:54 <Oranjer> only one right now--BlogNomic, but I've played face-to-face nomic before
07:03:01 <ehird> esquisite isn't actually a word
07:04:14 <Oranjer> exquisite corpse, the surrealist art game?
07:04:35 <Oranjer> where each person down the line gets a bit of information on what the previous person did, adds to it, and passes it on?
07:04:53 <Oranjer> great game in school when you're bored
07:05:23 <Oranjer> I had the idea that the players would also specify a set of themes for each turn
07:05:35 <ehird> funny, that's sort of like the thingy i made. 'cept not really.
07:06:33 <Oranjer> like, for the first section, the theme would be "fire", next would be "fire" and "guitarcar", then "fire", "guitarcar", "ocean", then "guitarcar", "ocean", "Mario", etc.
07:06:41 <Oranjer> it starts over every three themes
07:06:57 <madbrain> I like... music, programming, comics, phonetics.... that kind of stuff
07:07:01 <Oranjer> I wondered why no one had made a nomic exquisite corpse
07:07:17 <Oranjer> well, I'm interested in human-computer interfaces
07:07:28 <Oranjer> Scott McCloud, Jef Raskin, etc.
07:08:04 <Oranjer> ehird know the latter--do you know the former?
07:08:17 <madbrain> you mean like the infinite canvas thing?
07:08:29 <Oranjer> yes! but more than that, of course
07:08:49 <ehird> scott mccloud finds a comic guy
07:08:58 <ehird> how's that related to hci
07:09:05 <ehird> heh, he made the google chrome comic.
07:09:19 <ehird> ha ha ha ha to you too
07:09:20 <Oranjer> you...you just asked me...how...it's...related...to "X"....heh
07:09:39 <madbrain> dunno... the web seems to have settled on a different standard than infinite canvas, which you could describe as "finite width but infinite height"
07:09:47 <Oranjer> I was about to say that that is my main interest--juxtaposition
07:09:57 <Oranjer> yeah, I am saddened by that, madbrain
07:10:03 <ehird> on a more relevant note
07:10:13 <ehird> how is scott mccloud related to interaction design if this is the same guy
07:10:30 <Oranjer> ehird, how are tacos related to the moon?
07:10:41 <ehird> is that meant to be interesting?
07:10:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:10:49 <ehird> [07:07] Oranjer: well, I'm interested in human-computer interfaces
07:10:49 <ehird> [07:07] Oranjer: Scott McCloud, Jef Raskin, etc.
07:10:49 <ehird> [07:08] Oranjer: ehird know the latter--do you know the former?
07:10:53 <ehird> i see in no way how scott mccloud relates to the rest of those three lines
07:11:04 <madbrain> so instead of a static order of pages of finite width and height, you get a dynamic order of pages of finite width but infinite height
07:11:20 <Oranjer> displays are a main part of human-computer interfacing, ehird
07:11:38 <ehird> as far as i can tell
07:11:49 <ehird> you've mentioned a random comic guy
07:11:54 <ehird> and then said some totally unrelated things
07:11:59 <ehird> this somehow tying him to HCI
07:12:03 <Oranjer> that I consider integral to human-computer interfacing
07:12:03 <madbrain> tv tropes is so browsable that it enters the cycle of life
07:12:27 <Oranjer> of which comics is only a part
07:12:32 <madbrain> ie browsing 1 page makes you browse 1+e other pages
07:12:47 <ehird> calling every comic artist in the world
07:12:57 <ehird> is, what's the word, stupid
07:13:14 <Oranjer> heh, no, because McCloud has made some cool ideas regarding HCI
07:13:22 <ehird> why didn't you tell me that
07:13:23 <madbrain> I want to make comics eventually, but I lack funny ideas
07:13:24 <ehird> when i was first aasking
07:13:27 <ehird> how the hell he was related
07:13:33 <ehird> as opposed to giving me some meaningless pap
07:13:40 <madbrain> Which is too bad because I've gotten not so bad at drawing
07:13:56 <Oranjer> sorry, ehird, I have never, ever, ever, encountered a meaningless gap
07:14:10 <Oranjer> oh, madbrain? you need funny?
07:14:21 <ehird> "sorry, ehird, I have never, ever, ever, encountered a meaningless gap"
07:14:30 <Oranjer> as in, ehird, these "gaps" you speak of I find integral to creativity
07:14:42 <Oranjer> I have found it called "bisociation"
07:14:47 <madbrain> what are you even talking about
07:14:51 <Oranjer> as opposed to mere association
07:15:17 <ehird> madbrain: Oranjer is defending dodging my question "how does scott mccloud relate to HCI" before giving in and giving me a straight answer.
07:15:36 <ehird> deliberately being obstructive with communication is not a good policy to get people to continue to talk to you
07:16:01 <Oranjer> sorry, ehird, I apologize for any miscommunication on our part
07:16:02 <madbrain> well, scott mccloud gave a series of ideas of how to expand comics in a popular book, most of which are unpractical
07:16:15 <ehird> Oranjer: miscommunication? but you just defended it
07:16:32 <madbrain> some of those ideas join HCI stuff, but it's kindof a tenouous gap
07:16:37 <ehird> "as in, member:ehird, these "gaps" you speak of I find integral to creativity"
07:17:03 <madbrain> ehird: I have no idea what that sentence even means
07:17:14 <ehird> he's the one who said it
07:18:07 <Oranjer> I am interested in applying and synthesizing the ideas of Scott McCloud, Jef Raskin, and others to Human-Computer Interfacing
07:19:04 <ehird> Oranjer: should I go to bed (I feel safe in asking you this because the chance you will give me a straight answer is roughly zero)
07:19:56 <Oranjer> oh, ha! I just reread the text up there
07:20:07 <madbrain> ehird: will you have 8 hours of sleep? :D
07:20:16 <Oranjer> when you said "meaningless pap", i thought you said "meaningless gap"
07:20:25 <ehird> madbrain: um, probably? :P
07:20:48 <ehird> like a dog changing its own tail, except... intellectually... chasing its own tail...
07:20:52 <ehird> except not really like that at all
07:21:53 <Oranjer> what do you mean by do? am i familiar with them? do I know any? yes, no
07:22:26 <Oranjer> I mean, I am in the process of creating a universal language, so I suppose I do conlangs
07:22:45 <madbrain> kinda like esperanto or lojban?
07:22:56 <Oranjer> no thanks, those are hardly "universal"
07:23:25 <Oranjer> It would be very difficult to form or invent this language or characteristic, but very easy to learn it without any dictionaries.
07:23:34 <madbrain> dunno for lojban but esperanto is afaik basically a romance language
07:23:59 <madbrain> oranjer: but then you run into some problems
07:24:09 <Oranjer> whoa! do you know of any languages where poetry/the conveyance of emotions was the explicit purpose?
07:24:10 <madbrain> namely that you need some vocabulary
07:25:40 <madbrain> oranjer: maybe you should look at some very isolating languages like chinese then<
07:25:48 <Oranjer> I actually prefer the ontology of Ilaksh and Ithkuil
07:26:10 <ehird> i'll isolate your mom
07:26:13 <Oranjer> I guess such things would help me in my pursuit of becoming a mesalinguist
07:27:09 <madbrain> and obviously those languages have some more aesthetic stuff such as large phoneme inventories
07:27:22 <Oranjer> what "those languages" do you refer to?
07:27:52 <ehird> [07:25] madbrain: oranjer: maybe you should look at some very isolating languages like chinese then<
07:27:52 <ehird> [07:27] madbrain: and obviously those languages have some more aesthetic stuff such as large phoneme inventories
07:28:09 <ehird> madbrain: your "and" fucked that up
07:28:16 <ehird> it makes it connect with your previous statement
07:28:53 <madbrain> although chinese hardly has a small inventory either but that's besides point
07:29:20 <Oranjer> okay, madbrain, I misunderstood the situation
07:29:28 <Oranjer> a vocabulary is necessary, but...
07:30:33 <Oranjer> the structure of each symbol, and thus its syntax, would reflect the relational web of the concept it represents so closely it would be intuitive for any human
07:30:45 <Oranjer> *more intuitive than so-far natural languages
07:31:27 <Oranjer> I've actually found a bunch more criteria a universal language would likely have to fulfill
07:31:31 <ehird> i postulate such a language is impossible
07:31:52 <madbrain> but then if that relational web is complex, the words would become long, which would make it impractical
07:31:54 <Oranjer> yes, ehird, I prefer that to "You're an idiot for even suggesting this"
07:31:54 <ehird> boy i'm getsin' tired
07:32:14 <Oranjer> also, what concept do you know has a complex relational web?
07:32:14 <ehird> Oranjer: who said that
07:32:29 <Oranjer> many people I speak of this to, not you, ehird
07:32:31 <madbrain> how about something like "man"
07:32:38 <ehird> well, you are a cook.
07:32:52 <Oranjer> yes, I'm a conlang cook, thanks
07:33:03 <Oranjer> or do you mean the male of a human?
07:33:22 <Oranjer> *male of the human species
07:33:28 <ehird> look, kook coon cook's nook
07:33:43 <Oranjer> is look the only verb there?
07:34:14 <Oranjer> okay, yeah, that's pretty complex
07:34:42 <madbrain> see, complex web for a common noun that's very short in english
07:35:08 <Oranjer> yes, but I could argue that such a disparity makes the language harder to understand
07:35:59 <Oranjer> basically, I want the semantics to match the syntax, and I want the syntax to match the relations of the concept represented
07:36:09 <ehird> every concept is infinitely complex.
07:36:22 <madbrain> I think it's a result comming from the fact that some concepts are very common, hence get very short names, but have very complex meanings and stuff
07:36:26 <Oranjer> the Buddhist idea of impermanence
07:36:28 <ehird> which doesn't bode well for your language
07:36:39 <ehird> i don't recall mentioning any buddhist idea
07:36:48 <Oranjer> and? does that matter? it relates
07:36:51 <madbrain> and inversely rarer words tend to be longer and have less complex meaning webs
07:37:01 <ehird> you have to realise that other people cannot see your deductive processes
07:37:06 <ehird> we have to ask, and you have to tell us
07:37:42 <Oranjer> "A name is imposed on what is thought to be a thing or a state and this divides it from other things and other states. But when you pursue what lies behind the name, you find a greater and greater subtlety that has no divisions..." –Visuddhi Magga
07:37:50 <Oranjer> also, the wiki link is coming up
07:38:03 <madbrain> well, yeah, that's the point of the name
07:38:05 <ehird> i don't think that relates to what i said
07:38:16 <madbrain> there is all sorts of complex objects in the world
07:38:24 <ehird> what i was trying to express is that every idea has infinite relations to other ideas
07:38:36 <ehird> furthermore, you cannot define an idea in a way meaningful to a human in a way other than these relations
07:38:37 <madbrain> the name serves to take all these objects and put them together
07:38:42 <Oranjer> basically, in Buddhism, it is explicit that the existence of every thing depends on the existence of its relations with every other thing
07:38:42 <ehird> so every word must be infinitely complex
07:38:46 <ehird> this is... problematic
07:39:01 <Oranjer> it is an impossible ideal, yes
07:39:24 <Oranjer> we can always approach to the point where it is intuitive /enough/
07:39:44 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impermanence I guess
07:39:45 <ehird> anuses are never inappropriate
07:39:56 <madbrain> I think you should strive for a language that is comparatively more intuitive/easier
07:40:03 <Oranjer> that's the point, madbrain
07:40:12 <madbrain> Which is why you should look at chinese
07:40:20 <madbrain> it has a couple of good ideas to lift off
07:40:24 <Oranjer> how is that intuitive? it has a massive vocab
07:40:40 <madbrain> yes but it has a more limited set of morphemes
07:40:41 <Oranjer> true, but then, everything has "a couple of good ideas to lift off"
07:41:02 <Oranjer> yeah, with plenty of different meanings behind those
07:41:41 <Oranjer> mind you, I considered whether the pronunciation of a concept's name should work it's way into the graphic text
07:41:49 <madbrain> but with some work you can restrict the number of morphemes down a thousand or two and clean them up a bit
07:41:49 <Oranjer> I find that...difficult to implement
07:42:11 <madbrain> well, that's what a morpheme is
07:42:25 <Oranjer> yeah...but it is usually inexact
07:42:28 <madbrain> the point where the link between pronunciation and meaning becomes arbitrary
07:42:41 <Oranjer> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/visiblespeech.htm
07:42:47 <madbrain> if you can break down a morpheme then it's not a morpheme
07:43:20 <Oranjer> but I say there should be a strict 1:1 relation between each morpheme and each phoneme
07:43:23 <madbrain> dunno, I think the latin alphabet is good enough for any auxilliary language
07:43:47 <madbrain> oranjer: well, then you'd need a language with 1000 phonemes
07:43:51 <Oranjer> but the structure of each grapheme does not reflect it's syntax! at least a language should do that
07:44:07 <madbrain> what you can do is a language where each morpheme is a syllable
07:44:25 <Oranjer> dammit, you're building this up to Chinese, aren't you?
07:44:36 <Oranjer> I know its a syllablaalary...er..
07:44:41 <madbrain> well, it's true that chinese is a lot like that :D
07:45:15 <Oranjer> also, context-free affixes
07:45:35 <Oranjer> prefixes and suffixes and infixes and circumfixes
07:45:47 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affix
07:46:08 <madbrain> ah, you mean clean grammar with no irregularity?
07:46:08 <Oranjer> you know what context free means, right?
07:46:24 <Oranjer> that seems like a reasonable demand
07:46:43 <madbrain> hell, some real languages come close (like.....chinese)
07:46:59 <Oranjer> also, explicit evidentialities
07:47:10 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidentiality
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07:48:02 <Oranjer> also, I long ago found a good quote about so-called universal languages
07:48:11 <Oranjer> "Leaving hopes and utopias apart, probably the most lucid ever written about language are the following words by Chesterton: "He knows that there are in the soul tints more bewildering, more numberless, and more nameless than the colours of an autumn forest... Yet he seriously believes that these things can every one of them, in all their tones and semitones, in all their blends and unions, be accurately represented by an arbitrary syst
07:48:28 <Oranjer> oops, ignore the first " at the beginning
07:49:40 <madbrain> " be accurately represented by an arbitrary syst" cut off after that
07:49:53 <Oranjer> did my other quote also cut off?
07:50:09 <Oranjer> in all their tones and semitones, in all their blends and unions, be accurately represented by an arbitrary system of grunts and squeals. He believes that an ordinary civilized stockbroker can really produce out of his own inside noises which denote all the mysteries of memory and all the agonies of desire"
07:50:41 <madbrain> about visible speech, I don't think you need that, latin alphabet is good enough
07:51:06 <ehird> Oranjer: you are using pidgin, yes?
07:51:16 <ehird> Oranjer: I highly suggest getting a client actually designed for IRC
07:51:21 <madbrain> what do you mean too unintuitive
07:51:26 <ehird> Oranjer: one that can split messages for you just by sending them
07:51:33 <madbrain> sure, you have to teach the letters to kids
07:51:41 <Oranjer> because I also use pidgin for IM
07:51:48 <madbrain> and you have to teach how to put letters together into syllables
07:51:52 <ehird> you can run two programs
07:52:05 <madbrain> I don't think visible speech helps much with that
07:52:09 <ehird> IM is different from channels
07:52:19 <ehird> and every client that tries to do both fails at the latter
07:52:35 <Oranjer> wait, madbrain, when you say "visible speech", do you mean text, or graphical language?
07:52:46 <Oranjer> I just want to make sure we are not talking past each othere
07:52:54 <Oranjer> also, that last "or" is actually an "and"
07:53:02 <Oranjer> as in text, and graphical language
07:53:45 <madbrain> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/visiblespeech.htm visible speech
07:53:52 <Oranjer> meh, ehird, I now know there is a limit--I can adapt by putting in shift + enter
07:54:09 <Oranjer> I was just using that as an example! ha
07:54:12 <ehird> Oranjer: yes, but adding too many = bad
07:54:14 <ehird> because it floods the channel
07:54:16 <madbrain> It looks like another IPA basically
07:54:18 <ehird> which pisses off everyone
07:54:39 <Oranjer> I must now reread your previous comments, madbrain, with that in mind
07:55:19 <madbrain> oranjer: what you're talking about also sounds like a taxonomic language
07:55:35 <Oranjer> I apologize--we were talking past each other for some time
07:55:51 <Oranjer> yes, I would say that visible language is as good and as bad as latin, sorry
07:56:05 <Oranjer> and yes, it is an ontological language, aye
07:56:49 <Oranjer> all such ontological languages I have seen have used entirely too arbitrary classification systems
07:57:09 <Oranjer> akin to Dewey putting "other religions" in the last tenth of "religion"
07:57:27 <Oranjer> Dewey Decimal System, I mean
07:57:33 <madbrain> well, one problem of such systems is that it makes related words too close
07:57:52 <Oranjer> can you not think of a way past that?
07:58:02 <Oranjer> (I think I do, but I gotta find the right words first)
07:58:56 <madbrain> in a taxonomic system they would have very close forms
07:58:57 <Oranjer> and, say, veliolflu, velulflo, and vefulflia
07:59:27 <Oranjer> I wonder if Ithkuil has that problem
07:59:42 <madbrain> this is why close morphemes tend to dissimilate rather than to become closer
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08:00:45 <Oranjer> okay, say each morpheme was a syllable
08:01:36 <madbrain> It would be acceptable to have, say, man-vel vs vel vs no-vel
08:02:09 <Oranjer> aye, I was thinking that the most specific part would always get added to the front
08:02:15 <madbrain> something like wild-dog vs dog vs red-dog
08:02:31 <Oranjer> but that would likely encourage clipping off the end, the most general
08:03:07 <Oranjer> yeah, especially in specialized disciplines
08:03:19 <Oranjer> where a namespace (the clipped end) is always assumed
08:03:21 <madbrain> but then with the reverse order they could clip out the start anyways
08:03:35 <Oranjer> but is it more likely to do that?
08:03:53 <madbrain> I think you're better with the more specific first
08:04:12 <Oranjer> maybe....but actually, I just realized two things
08:04:22 <ehird> obama is a 5,000 volt telephone pole
08:04:32 <madbrain> might depend on whether your language is head initial or head final though
08:04:46 <Oranjer> I mean, I'll be right back
08:05:02 <ehird> i simply state facts
08:05:53 <madbrain> dunno what to think about obama yet
08:06:20 <ehird> he's like bush except more articulate!
08:06:28 <ehird> also he is a 5,000 volt telephone pole and bush is not
08:07:32 <Oranjer> I have returned to find this almost devolving into...*gasp!* a political tussle!
08:07:54 <madbrain> anyways, back to auxlang stuff
08:08:04 <Oranjer> also, I do find similarities between both president's first years in office--but then, every president's first year is like that
08:08:09 <ehird> it's obvious to any non-USian that the democratic party is a crazy right-wing party and the republican party is a crazy right-wing party with slightly more delirious religious crap...
08:08:34 <Oranjer> uh okay pipe down ehird it's okay they're coming for you but they will help you it's okay ehird
08:08:41 <ehird> and i say this from the UK, a country only slightly to the left of the US :/
08:08:44 <Oranjer> I realized something, madbrain
08:08:57 <ehird> Oranjer: what is that meant to imply? you actually think the democratic party is left-wing?
08:09:07 <ehird> somebody keep this guy away from europe, he might have a seizure
08:09:25 <Oranjer> I mean to imply that I wear a beret and I bomb government buildings, now SHUT up
08:09:55 <ehird> let me know how that obama thing works out
08:10:26 <ehird> wanna bet? i don't
08:10:33 <Oranjer> in an ontological language, concepts closely resembling each other conceptually also closely resemble each other morphologically, right?
08:10:46 <Oranjer> (that's the problem you stated before_
08:10:58 <madbrain> well, in the ones people have tried up to yet, yes
08:12:23 <Oranjer> in the characteristica universalis I suggest, one criterion would be that the grapheme, and therefore the morpheme, of a concept would resemble the syntax of the concept represented by that grapheme/morpheme
08:13:01 <Oranjer> concepts with closely resembling syntaxs would resemble each other morphologically
08:13:06 <Oranjer> I do not see that as a problem
08:13:38 <Oranjer> hmmm...true...doesn't lojban have something to say about that?
08:13:54 <Oranjer> that it can't be misheard?
08:14:08 <madbrain> normally people grasp languages orally and translate that oral stuff into writing, not the other way around
08:14:54 <madbrain> that leads to the problem that what you're expressing might be a tree or a web of relations, but speech is linear
08:14:55 <Oranjer> true, but "normally" is hardly "intuitive enough to learn instantly and to have the ability to convey fairly complex concepts unambiguously"
08:15:28 <Oranjer> the graphic part of the language would resemble a web of concepts (it does, actually)
08:15:38 <Oranjer> but the speech is linear....hmmm
08:16:00 <Oranjer> the "pushing" and "popping" from one block to the next
08:16:13 <madbrain> the easiest to master writing system is the one that follows speech the closest
08:16:28 <Oranjer> do you know what I mean by "pushing" and "popping"?
08:16:56 <Oranjer> pushing is going in, popping is going out
08:17:05 <madbrain> yeah, then you get something close to SOV languages
08:17:25 <Oranjer> ah, what? I know what that means, but I fail to see the connection
08:17:43 <Oranjer> I guess I can give an example in english?
08:17:51 <madbrain> well, japanese for instance is subject-object-verb
08:18:25 <Oranjer> MaryStartingThink TomStartingWants Cake TomEndingWants MaryEndingThink
08:18:27 <madbrain> and all the affixes and suffixes apply in a sort of front to back direction
08:18:52 <pikhq> With the omission of subject and object when it can be inferred.
08:18:59 <Oranjer> where "ending wants" or whatever is one thing, not the thing for "ending" and the thing for "wants"
08:19:18 <madbrain> Something like "John Mary made-Cake-[o] likes"
08:19:22 <Oranjer> "Mary Thinks Tom wants Cake."
08:20:08 <madbrain> [o] means that the preceding noun is the object
08:20:10 <Oranjer> could you give me the translation of your sentence, please?
08:20:36 <ehird> John Mary made a cake o' lies.
08:20:42 <Oranjer> yeah, okay, I can see that
08:21:06 <Oranjer> where the subject and the Verb "surround" the object, and it continues "downward" from there?
08:21:27 <madbrain> in practice in japanese the verb is always at the end
08:21:56 <Oranjer> but made is not at the end
08:22:04 <madbrain> and then everything else comes in before, accompanied by a little syllable telling what it does respective to the verb
08:22:42 <madbrain> ie it's not the focus of the sentence, it's a property of "cake"
08:22:55 <Oranjer> I dunno about that part, though
08:23:11 <madbrain> John likes the cake [mary made that cake]
08:23:38 <Oranjer> ah! you are describing the origin of the cake (the object)!
08:23:40 <madbrain> John likes the cake [the one that mary made]
08:23:59 <madbrain> it's basically like an adjective, but instead of just an adjective it's a whole verb
08:24:09 <Oranjer> the origin, I guess, would act as a modifier, aye
08:24:35 <madbrain> basically it helps you guess which cake precisely you're talking of
08:24:42 <Oranjer> there's "cause", " relative time of origin", and 'relative location of origin"
08:24:51 <madbrain> cake [reject any cake that was not made by mary]
08:24:59 <Oranjer> Mary-made-it would act as the "cause"
08:25:16 <madbrain> oranjer: It's even more general than that
08:25:28 <Oranjer> I am merely throwing out ideas
08:25:39 <ehird> 1qaz2wsx3edc4rfv5tgb6yhn7ujm8ik,9ol.0p;/-['=]|
08:25:47 <madbrain> oranjer: it's a small sentence, if that sentence is not satisfied, then you have the wrong cake
08:26:03 <Oranjer> hey, when did we bring logic into this? heh
08:26:21 <madbrain> well, you're trying to make an ontological language after all :D
08:27:20 <Oranjer> "John Mary-made-yesterday-Cake likes"
08:27:48 <Oranjer> Tom John Mary-made-yesterday-Cake likes thinks"
08:27:52 <madbrain> yeah except in japanese the order would be "John Mary yesterday made Cake likes"
08:28:40 <Oranjer> ah, progenitor, to temporal, to relation between the progenitor and the object
08:28:40 <madbrain> see, yesterday is one of the arguments of "made", it has to go before it
08:29:07 <Oranjer> heh, SVO still feels too natural too me
08:29:27 <madbrain> Then you should look at chinese
08:29:52 <madbrain> chinese is a totally different ball game and it's SVO down to the nails
08:30:13 <Oranjer> oh! I thought you would be recommending a language that was outside my comfort zone
08:30:27 <pikhq> madbrain: Except for the various part of sentence modifiers...
08:30:34 <pikhq> Those make it much easier to understand...
08:30:52 <Oranjer> are...are people watching this conversation? oy vey
08:30:53 <madbrain> In chinese you'd have "John like mary yesterday make-[de]-Cake"
08:31:08 <ehird> qazxswedcvrtgbnhyujm,kiol./;p['\]
08:31:29 <madbrain> well, [de] is the chinese equivalent of "that"
08:31:55 <madbrain> and it's also applied to adjectives and possesives
08:32:17 <Oranjer> regardless of the order, I still would like it if there was some way to indicate the end of each "stack"
08:32:32 <madbrain> Well, that's the problem with SVO
08:32:33 <Oranjer> like a closing parenthesis
08:32:44 <madbrain> SVO doesn't really work like a stack
08:32:47 <Oranjer> also, it's a problem with most languages
08:32:58 <Oranjer> so SOV would act as a stack? I see that...hmmm
08:33:37 <Oranjer> so, madbrain, you know Chinese?
08:34:28 <madbrain> as for evidentiality, you could probably do that with auxilliary verbs
08:35:17 <madbrain> or at least that's how english tends to work afaik
08:35:19 <Oranjer> I thought an affix to the verb, like in...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language
08:35:49 <Oranjer> also, I like examining that language for its sheer differentness
08:37:38 <Oranjer> I just really like the idea of an evidentiality mandatory for each verb
08:38:01 <Oranjer> or...inheritable evidentiality? or, I dunno
08:38:11 <madbrain> well, you could have a default level, and add on affixes to change that
08:39:01 <madbrain> like "Bob crazy" vs "I think Bob crazy" vs "I sure Bob crazy"
08:39:05 <Oranjer> perhaps...but that hardly seems mandatory, ya know? besides, the only difference between the two is the presence or absence of a space between them
08:39:38 <madbrain> depends, an affix is not a word, a verb is one
08:39:42 <Oranjer> Bob acts crazy, I-know-because-I-observed Bob acts crazy
08:40:04 <Oranjer> ah, but a "word" is just an affix with a space separating it from another
08:40:05 <madbrain> so the verb could be separated by some extra words but not the affix
08:40:27 <madbrain> oranjer: but there are no spaces when speaking
08:40:44 <madbrain> oranjer: yet some languages still clearly delimit words phonetically
08:41:19 <madbrain> well, there is usually a hiccup or two
08:41:37 <madbrain> but in turkish, you have vowel harmony
08:41:48 <Oranjer> and in french you have the sliding thing
08:41:59 <madbrain> actually french is a bad example
08:42:46 <madbrain> because it tends to jumble up together multiple words and it has tons of clitics, ie words that are somewhat between words and affixes
08:43:41 <madbrain> also french is really hard to separate into morphemes
08:43:58 <Oranjer> regardless, we're arguing over whether to use affixes or auxiliary verbs to convey evidentiality, which is an altogether ridiculous argument
08:44:27 <Oranjer> I am more concerned over evidentialities-about-evidentialities
08:45:23 <Oranjer> He-(I-think-he)-thinks She ate the last piece
08:45:38 <Oranjer> as in, I think that he thinks that she ate the last piece
08:45:55 <Oranjer> I don't think "I think that..." would work
08:46:43 <madbrain> and I think you'd have more or less the same way of expressing it in french or chinese
08:46:48 <Oranjer> not really, puzzlet, we're trying to construct a universal language
08:47:31 <Oranjer> that would "I think he thinks" add to the top of the stack, or would it just add to the verb within "He thinks"?
08:47:54 <Oranjer> what a stupidly obvious conundrum-solution!
08:48:03 <ehird> i think he thinks that he thinks that he thinks
08:48:06 <ehird> what he thinks he thinks
08:48:18 <Oranjer> /we add the evidentialities to the top of the stack!/
08:48:41 <Oranjer> that would work for the verbs, I guess
08:49:10 <Oranjer> but what of the object's characteristics? how sure am I that Mary made a cake? or would that modify the verb as well?
08:49:14 <madbrain> evidentiality with "I" is ok, but when you're getting into evidentiality for other people, it would be probably simpler to use a verb for "think"
08:49:59 <madbrain> where are you going to put Bob
08:50:02 <ehird> i guess i should sleep
08:51:02 <Oranjer> madbrain, were those examples?
08:51:22 <madbrain> ok, say "Bob thinks paul gave an apple to anna"
08:51:44 <ehird> Oranjer: did you make "pics or it never occurred" like that deliberately
08:51:48 <ehird> or is that actually how you'd phrase it
08:52:08 <Oranjer> Schrodinger's Picture Album
08:52:36 <madbrain> Well, in that sentence you have 1 action action (give), 4 nouns
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08:53:09 <madbrain> and the idea that one of them is having a point of view on that action
08:53:22 <Oranjer> Bob Start-think Paul start-give-to-anna apple End-give End-think.
08:53:49 <Oranjer> Bob thinks Paul gave an apple to anna
08:54:16 <Oranjer> maybe...maybe /only/ evidentialities should go to the top of the stack!
08:54:55 <Oranjer> you are missing an r, oerjan
08:55:06 <madbrain> bob paul anna apple give think
08:55:44 <Oranjer> (while making explicit the difference between the direct and indirect object of give, of course)
08:55:51 <oerjan> <Oranjer> I have heard of that individual, as I have also heard of you, ehird
08:56:12 <ehird> "Now... this will be very swift."
08:56:36 <madbrain> oranjer: actually you don't HAVE to make a difference between the direct and indirect object
08:56:42 <Oranjer> what? go awesome or go home, I say--that also applies to the minuscule of speech
08:57:05 <Oranjer> I think the language should
08:57:36 <Oranjer> did I put the car in a box or the box in the car? also, I guess I forgot the "in"
08:57:47 <madbrain> well, as in you have to differentiate it at least by the order
08:58:03 <Oranjer> bah! differentiating by order is hardly intuitive!
08:58:14 <Oranjer> I would prefer to use affixes
08:58:34 <madbrain> chinese would be "I at-box's inside put car"
08:58:36 <ehird> oerjan! should i sleep
08:58:39 <ehird> you are the voice fo reason
08:58:57 <oerjan> ehird: yes. otherwise you'll eventually go insane.
08:58:57 <Oranjer> no, oerjan is the voice fo' reason
08:59:16 <Oranjer> (damn, ehird! you forgot to place a timelimit in your question!)
08:59:39 <oerjan> i don't really know go, never played it. read a little bit about it though.
09:00:02 <ehird> oerjan: oh fuck you i'm tired i don't have the brain space for the, the jokes and the... so why the fuck am i asking you
09:00:05 <ehird> yeah, good question ehird!
09:00:16 <Oranjer> (you should have asked something like "should I go to sleep soon, within the next hour?)
09:00:39 <ehird> Oranjer: GO STICK YOUR HEAD IN AN EXHAUST PIPE
09:00:42 <oerjan> ehird: because group pressure
09:00:55 <Oranjer> Oerjan-for-unknown-reasons demands ehird to sleep
09:00:56 <ehird> oerjan: but I haven't done a gateway drug yet!
09:01:05 <ehird> i'm not ready to give into such hardcore peer pressure as sleeping, man
09:01:06 <madbrain> something like "wo3 dao4 he2zi-li na2zou3 che1"
09:01:55 <Oranjer> haha, that's the problem when the ratio of phoneme to grapheme is not 1:1
09:02:14 <ehird> me oh fucking hell it's that time
09:02:23 <ehird> i probably should sleep! shouldn't i
09:02:25 <madbrain> dao4 is not pronounced the same way as dao3 (and has a different meaning ofc)
09:02:43 <Oranjer> you're relegated to using suprasegmental notes to indicate the correct phoneme, and therefore to indicate the correct concept
09:02:44 <madbrain> oranjer: which is why I add tone numbers
09:03:01 <madbrain> just like I use consonants and vowels
09:03:10 <Oranjer> I know, but in writing chinese, the tones are not implicit in the grapheme used, right?
09:03:30 <ehird> sleep is a good word
09:03:38 <Oranjer> one grapheme can represent a multitude of phonemes, right?
09:03:53 <Oranjer> I also like "suprasegmental", ehird
09:03:58 <oerjan> ehird: don't think too much. follow your heart. then sleep.
09:03:58 <madbrain> one grapheme usually represents 1 morpheme and 1 syllable
09:04:06 <ehird> oerjan: aummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmsdfghjkl;
09:04:14 <Oranjer> really? I heard differently, madbrain...hmmmm
09:04:23 <ehird> what if sleeping is like...dying...and reincarnation...man...duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
09:04:27 <ehird> yeah, I should sleep1
09:04:29 <madbrain> ie there are about 5000 morphemes in mandarin, but about 1200 different syllables
09:04:35 <ehird> more importantly i should stop doing 1 when want !
09:04:41 <Oranjer> yeah that sounds bad madbrain
09:04:43 <ehird> and stuff yeah okay sorta thing
09:04:52 <madbrain> so actually there are lots of homophones
09:05:03 <madbrain> ie graphemes have more info than phonemes
09:05:39 <ehird> republiphone party
09:05:45 <ehird> they'rea ll homophones and shit
09:05:47 <madbrain> this is because the number of different syllables has gone down in mandarin, ie some syllables merged
09:05:48 <ehird> okay i really, really need sleep
09:05:52 <ehird> i'm practically incoherent
09:06:11 <Oranjer> so, what about the graphemes, madbrain?
09:06:18 <ehird> THOSE GRAHPHEMES HUH
09:06:20 <oerjan> ehird: *practically* ?
09:06:22 <ehird> what's UP with them
09:06:33 <ehird> oerjan: well it's like a theory of incoherency you understand
09:06:34 <madbrain> characters are about equivalent to morphemes in chinese
09:06:35 <Oranjer> yeah, grapheme food, what's up with that?
09:06:37 <ehird> appleid in practice
09:06:45 <ehird> so,.. it's practically!
09:06:52 <ehird> Oranjer: yeah, what is UP with it
09:07:10 <Oranjer> haha, I just finally got the joke! holy shit I'm an idiot
09:07:10 <ehird> don't actually know
09:07:15 <ehird> what is up with it
09:07:21 <madbrain> it's not a too practical system because 5000 morhpemes = 5000 characters to learn :(
09:07:26 <ehird> i never even got that
09:07:32 <ehird> i thought it was just.. .shit
09:07:46 <ehird> is that the punchline, intentional, i mean, is that the thing, that people do it for
09:07:47 <Oranjer> "Airplane food...what is UP with that?"
09:07:56 <ehird> is that the actual-
09:07:56 <Oranjer> I don't know! I don't know!
09:08:02 <ehird> this, has shaken my world
09:08:40 <Oranjer> YOU HAVE A BRAIN MADBRAIN USE IT
09:08:42 <ehird> "what is UP with airline food"
09:08:55 <Oranjer> is that the punny punchline?
09:09:01 <ehird> that is what we would like to know
09:09:15 <ehird> we are waiting on you madbrain
09:09:29 <ehird> I DON'T KNOW how could we even ask it
09:09:41 <Oranjer> GOOGLE WHAT IS UP WITH THE AIRPLANE FOOD JOKE
09:09:42 -!- jix has joined.
09:09:48 <ehird> i, the googles aren't helping
09:09:53 <Oranjer> oh god! I think I made another one! oh, shits!
09:09:56 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit).
09:09:58 <ehird> wait, wait, wait, CALM DOWN i think
09:10:05 <ehird> Oranjer: the joke that is commonly done is
09:10:09 <ehird> " what is the deal with airline food? "
09:10:11 <Oranjer> madbrain, what is up with the airplane joke?
09:10:17 <ehird> now unless it refers to a wonderful airline's GREAT DEALS
09:10:19 <ehird> as in VALUE FOR MONEY
09:10:24 <Oranjer> well, damn, that's nothing to phone home about
09:10:30 <ehird> madbrain: ABSOLUTELY
09:10:34 <oerjan> at this point i am starting to think you should _all_ sleep
09:10:39 <ehird> they should do an ad campaign!
09:10:42 <Oranjer> I am glad for America adn Humanity adn Us adn Them
09:10:45 <ehird> "What's the DEAL with airline food?"
09:10:50 <ehird> "The DEAL... is with Ryanair!"
09:11:00 <ehird> "Our new Premium flights now include FOOD!"
09:11:05 <ehird> food! that you can put in your mouth!
09:11:14 <Oranjer> ahh madbrain I have forgotten our subject!
09:11:51 <oerjan> ehird: if your stomach is tough enough
09:12:02 <ehird> YOU DIGEST IT WITH YOUR... I DON'T KNOW, INTESTINES
09:12:06 <Oranjer> no! no food for a strong stomach, you!
09:12:10 <ehird> intestines are very clever they do all sorts of things
09:12:17 <madbrain> oranjer: so yeah I think you should have latin alphabet
09:12:32 <Oranjer> wait, does, multi-functionality necessarily indicated cleverness?
09:12:35 <oerjan> intestines are turing-complete! too bad they can only do shit.
09:12:42 <ehird> Oranjer: you use such big words
09:12:45 <ehird> i am no longer "with you"
09:13:05 <madbrain> latin alphabet (abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz) can notate, like, any language
09:13:12 <Oranjer> why's that? the structure of each grapheme does not indicate the syntax of the concept they relate!
09:13:17 <ehird> so can binary alphabet (01)
09:13:18 <oerjan> yeah what's up with all this cleverity
09:13:32 <Oranjer> resolution is no insurmoutable barrier!
09:13:33 <ehird> MA-HA-HA-HA-hahahaha-gic!
09:13:43 <ehird> yep i am talk via 1x1 1-bit display
09:13:47 <ehird> is very high quality single pixel
09:14:00 <Oranjer> like, a negative imaginary number
09:14:08 <oerjan> all your b *hit by falling anvil*
09:14:23 <madbrain> because any spoken language eventually breaks down to N vowels an M consonants (and O lengths/tones/accents/etc..)
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09:15:02 <Oranjer> what if a triple syllable was an individual morpheme?
09:15:22 <Oranjer> also, yeah, I do understand the limitations of the human vocal system
09:15:24 <madbrain> you mean like "banana" for instance?
09:15:45 <Oranjer> the alphabet! would be so different!
09:15:46 <madbrain> ok, well, speech does not delimit that morpheme
09:16:04 <Oranjer> like, banana would be right next to gahnosee!
09:16:16 <madbrain> if speech doesn't delimit it, why would you have to delimit it in writing
09:16:22 <Oranjer> so so you don't confuse closely categorized concepts!
09:16:51 <Oranjer> ah, but each of those triple-syllable morphemes would have its own grapheme!
09:17:02 <Oranjer> dammit, that doesn't work at all!
09:17:23 <Oranjer> ehird's...insanity infected me for a bit
09:17:59 <Oranjer> I just wanna talk about my game...:(
09:18:16 <madbrain> well, if you made a language where each morpheme is 1 syllable, then you can guess where each morpheme start and ends even with latin alphabet
09:18:19 <Oranjer> oh wait, we were discussing a characteristica universalis!
09:19:26 <oerjan> LR(0) human languages!
09:19:36 <Oranjer> perhaps the vowels used in each morpheme would be the same? so a fragment of ...boonoosee... could not be confused for ...booneesee...
09:19:53 <Oranjer> as the first is 1, (1,1,2,) 2,2
09:20:02 <madbrain> oranjer: but then you'd have a different problem
09:20:07 <Oranjer> and the second is 1,1 (1,2,2) 2
09:20:37 <madbrain> which is that it's hard to make 1000+ different syllables without at least a consonant, a vowel, and something else (such as another consnonant)
09:21:16 <madbrain> some languages do keep each vowel more or less intact though so boonoosee vs booneesee would remain different
09:21:16 <Oranjer> boonookoo, beeneekee, bahnahkah...
09:21:53 <Oranjer> okay, do you want chinese to be the universal language? you can say it if you want, I will not get angry
09:22:08 <oerjan> well in mandarin iirc ng can only occur at the end and most everything else at the beginning (ignoring n), so if you divided the consonant set in two...
09:22:44 <madbrain> like, if you do mergers like bunuxi with bunixi in chinese, you generate a gazillion homophones
09:23:21 <madbrain> oerjan: yeah but there is no vowel harmony
09:23:35 <oerjan> you want vowel harmony too now?
09:24:14 <madbrain> well, oranjer was suggesting something like vowel harmony and I said that it would lower the phonological content too much
09:25:23 <Oranjer> I give up on the multi-syllable morpheme idea. I apologize for any inconveniences or troubles my extended confusion has caused our audience, and our respective selves.
09:25:28 <madbrain> oranjer: well, I think the grammar and morphology of chinese might be a good inspiration yes
09:25:45 <madbrain> although not the writing system or phonetic system :D
09:26:12 <madbrain> oh, but you can have multiple syllable morphemes too
09:26:32 <Oranjer> but not in an ontological language
09:26:47 <madbrain> you'd have to be able to delimit them
09:27:08 <madbrain> ie no "hi-no" vs "hino" ambiguity
09:27:47 <Oranjer> do you mean that hi and no, vs hino, are all separate morphemes?
09:28:03 <madbrain> well, you can't have a "hi", a "no" and a "hino" morpheme without running the risk of causing a homophone
09:28:27 <madbrain> although in practice that risk is quite low which is why most languages do have multiple syllable morphemes
09:29:33 <madbrain> see, to make a good ontological language, you have to learn more about natural languages
09:30:00 <Oranjer> can we put our universal language ruminations to rest?
09:30:10 <Oranjer> as in, so we can sleep on it
09:30:24 <Oranjer> that *is* the most integral part of creativity
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09:31:20 <Oranjer> why are our names so alike?
09:31:45 <oerjan> well in my case it _is_ my name, slightly mangled to fit in the english alphabet
09:32:17 <augur> are you kids talking about natural languages?
09:32:38 <Oranjer> actually, we were talking about constructing an artificial language
09:33:02 <Oranjer> my name is but a portmanteau of my favorite color and the first syllable of my actual name
09:33:10 <Oranjer> for universal communication
09:33:20 <oerjan> augur: to take over the world, of course. what other end is there?
09:33:28 <augur> good point oerjan!
09:33:36 <Oranjer> well, yes, oerjan, but that's not the sole purpose
09:33:45 <augur> what do you mean by universal communication
09:34:19 <Oranjer> I basically wish to create a language that can model, create, and compare even the most disparate of the human disciplines
09:34:36 <Oranjer> and no, your "mathematics" ain't universal enough
09:34:51 <augur> natural language does this pretty well enough as it is.
09:35:02 <augur> and by natural language i mean any given language.
09:35:24 <Oranjer> bah! it's hardly efficient
09:35:34 <augur> actually its quite efficient
09:35:42 <Oranjer> and it's hardly intuitive enough to be understand within the hour by any sentient creature
09:36:02 <augur> no language can be learned within an hour.
09:36:05 <Oranjer> also, the semantics hardly match the syntax!
09:36:09 <oerjan> Oranjer: let me warn you that augur is studying linguistics
09:36:12 <Oranjer> a universal language should be
09:36:18 <augur> yes, this is true oranjer
09:36:22 <augur> i am infact a professional linguist
09:36:25 <Oranjer> then....augur is a lost cause, then :(
09:36:37 <augur> at one of, if not the top theoretical departments on the planet.
09:36:44 <oerjan> ruined by the establishment :D
09:37:03 <augur> this department makes it routine to challenge conventional ideas
09:37:20 <Oranjer> (I think that is the way to represent eh raspberry)
09:37:28 <augur> natural language is not inefficient
09:37:32 <augur> it is incredibly efficient
09:37:46 <augur> furthermore, the syntax does not need to look precisely like the semantics
09:37:51 <augur> for if it did it would become less efficient
09:38:01 <Oranjer> no, I meant the other way around!
09:38:02 <augur> but it does reflect the semantics to a large degree
09:38:20 <Oranjer> wait, what's your definition of semantics and syntax? the *official* definitions?
09:38:42 <augur> syntax is all the formal structural aspects of linguistic expressions
09:39:06 <augur> broadly construed to include morphology but not so broad as to include the phonological aspects
09:39:26 <Oranjer> oops! I guess I have been using the word the wrong way all along! oops!
09:39:28 <augur> semantics is in my usage an internalist formal system of conceptualization.
09:39:37 <augur> what did you mean by syntax
09:40:30 <augur> regarding language efficiency
09:40:33 <Oranjer> I meant, by syntax, the underlying relations between the concepts represented by the semantics, the words themselves
09:40:56 <augur> given the conditions in which it must be used, the things you find inefficient, like redundancy, etc. are actually added for reliability
09:41:17 <augur> so that signal degradation != meaning degradation
09:41:19 <Oranjer> no, I never said redundancy was inefficient!
09:41:29 <Oranjer> I understand it's necessity
09:41:34 <augur> well there is little else that could be said to be inefficient about language
09:42:12 <augur> well consider the situation wherein you reflect a semantics precisely
09:42:31 <augur> and lets say, for the sake of convenience, that we have a tarskian logic rather than anything as complicated as a lambda calculus
09:43:57 <augur> the sentence "the dog bit the man that the woman knows" would become something roughly like BIT(x,y) & DOG(x) & MAN(y) & KNOW(z,y) & WOMAN(z)
09:44:19 <augur> or maybe just Bxy & Dx & My & Kzy & Wz
09:44:30 <augur> now, there's a lot of redundancy of variables here
09:44:41 <augur> all those x's and y's and x'z duplicated like that
09:44:55 <augur> natural language tends to not do this
09:45:09 <augur> notice in the english, theres only one unit that refers to the woman, one that refers to the man, one to the dog
09:45:16 <Oranjer> true..but each time they are mentioned, they are describing a separate relation about that concept
09:45:19 * oerjan is disturbed that his eyes seem to confuse Oranjer's nick with Gregor
09:45:32 <augur> true, they're in different relations
09:45:41 <augur> because of the HIERARCHICAL relationships
09:46:04 <augur> [the_dog [bit [the_man [that the_woman [knows]]]]]
09:46:11 <augur> we can define certain conventions
09:46:19 <augur> wherein, for instance
09:46:19 <Oranjer> augur, you have convinced me that such redundancies to indicate popping and pushing would be strictly necessary in a universal language
09:47:00 <augur> we might take a syntactic form [the_dog [bit [the_man [that the_woman [knows the_man]]]]] and delete this lower copy of the man just in case it refers to the same man as the higher version
09:47:05 <Oranjer> we were talking about such stacking earlier
09:47:37 <augur> things could get much more complicated very quickly
09:47:53 <augur> especially since the normal semantic representations of sentences are tremendously complicated
09:48:01 <augur> i dont know what you mean by "stacking"
09:48:22 <Oranjer> I mean what you mean when you speak of nested hierarchies
09:48:43 <Oranjer> wherein the object of a relation is itself a relation, etc.
09:48:49 <augur> well thats just tree structured linguistic expressions
09:49:17 <augur> in most versions of semantics that have any worth to them, relations arent the arguments of other relations
09:49:24 <augur> the value of the relation can be
09:49:28 <augur> but the relation itself is not
09:49:49 <Oranjer> I see no problem with such a thing
09:49:59 <augur> because in a properly typed logic, relations are not objects of the system
09:50:04 <augur> oh sure, it happens in natural language
09:50:20 <augur> which is why SOME very important logics have such abilities
09:50:37 <augur> such as montague's intensional logic
09:51:07 <augur> tho its arguable that such systems are completely unnecessary
09:52:31 <Oranjer> well, hey, I hate do this, really, I know it looks suspicious and all, but I was just about to go to sleep when you came on
09:53:15 <Oranjer> see ya later, augur, oerjan, everyone else!
09:53:25 <augur> good bye my ignorant friend
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09:54:47 <augur> wanna know some cool stuff about language? :x
09:54:59 <augur> but its interesting!
09:55:11 <augur> its like learning about how natural language is esoteric!
09:55:24 <augur> and thus provides ideas about making even more esoteric constructed languages!
09:56:04 <augur> suppose your semantics had the types T, U, V, ...
09:56:14 <augur> and some relations over these times
09:56:34 <augur> lets say R is T -> U -> V
09:56:48 <augur> or perhaps more accurately, T -> U -> Bool
09:57:18 <augur> (all relations looking like that; two args go to bool)
09:58:10 <augur> your syntax apparently cannot have phrases that directly include other phrases, IF...
09:58:50 <augur> if the arguments/referents of those phrases are of types T, U such that there is no relationship of type T -> U -> Bool or U -> T -> Bool
09:59:48 <augur> this also seems to lead inexorably to the emergence of certain hierarchies in the syntax that seemingly have no motivation
10:02:39 <augur> theres no apriori reason why this should be true
10:02:43 <augur> but it seems to be
10:03:22 <augur> also, even if the type system has a relation of the requisite sort, the semantics must contain such a relation connecting the relevant items
10:03:32 <augur> precisely one relation
10:03:57 <augur> so its highly constrained
10:04:08 <augur> and you could imagine that there are ways to change those constraints
10:04:17 <augur> but the result is not a naturally acquirable human language
10:06:16 <augur> you could also imagine the same constraints but with a different semantics
10:06:42 <augur> so that you get different relations and thus different possible grammars
10:07:41 <augur> so for instance normally things like tense and modality are structurally higher than things like core verbal meaning components
10:08:03 <augur> but why? perhaps you might have a languge in which tense and modality are lower in the structure
10:08:22 <augur> and so you might get very weird things out of that
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11:13:25 <nooga> anyone played with llvm-as?
11:31:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: But have you PLAYED with it? Have you given it enough LOVE? Have you treated it as a PERSON?
11:31:33 <fizzie> No! You just USE it, like it's a piece of code with no FEELINGS!
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12:46:15 <nooga> another reason for i hate C++: there is no way to specify unescaped string literals
12:47:17 <nooga> and thus my regexp engine needs something like that: regex_compile("blah\\."); instead of "blah\."
12:47:34 <Deewiant> Strictly that hate is at the C preprocessor, but yeah.
12:48:08 <nooga> in ruby i've got "" vs '' and it's okay
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12:50:29 <nooga> on the other hand i must admit that C++'s exceptions are useful
12:51:51 <nooga> pumping errors up by hand from a bunch of parser functions that call themselves sucks
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16:19:04 <oerjan> <nooga> another reason for i hate C++: there is no way to specify unescaped string literals <-- on the bright side, that is also a missing feature of haskell
16:31:00 <oerjan> now where is that rascal AnMaster
16:31:31 <oerjan> you have not spoken in over 1 day
16:31:50 <oerjan> so i assumed you were not here
16:32:08 <oerjan> also: fiendish, obi-wan :D
16:33:28 <oerjan> oh and for iwc with the recent mythbusters arc, this leaves me confused which universe the joneses actually _are_ in...
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17:52:55 <Warrigal> unescaped = init . tail . show
17:53:46 <Warrigal> main = putStrLn $ unescaped "A newline is \n; a bell is \a."
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18:04:03 <oerjan> !haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "A newline is \n; a bell is \a."
18:04:31 <EgoBot> A newline is \n; a bell is \a.
18:05:26 <oerjan> I foresee no problem with that method.
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18:45:13 <Gracenotes> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daudiobooks&field-keywords=kant .. I didn't know they had CDs back then
18:46:06 <oerjan> it's categorically a disk
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18:51:41 <Warrigal> I do foresee a problem with that method.
18:52:07 <Warrigal> !haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "A newline is \10; a bell is \7."
18:52:09 <EgoBot> A newline is \n; a bell is \a.
18:53:11 <Warrigal> !haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "\Let\'s \jus\t p\ut \bac\ksl\ash\es \in \ran\dom\ pl\ace\s."
18:53:33 <Warrigal> !haskell EgoBot, does your silence mean that my string has a lexical error?
18:53:44 <oerjan> You do not easily recognize sarcasm memes, i take
18:54:29 <oerjan> well at least i think i saw it in dilbert
18:56:08 <oerjan> indeed lexical errors should be possible
18:56:46 <oerjan> !haskell let unescaped = init . tail . show in putStrLn $ unescaped "\ \etc. \ \etc."
18:57:11 <oerjan> (no that was not an attempt at a lexical error)
18:59:44 <fax> why SHOULD they teach logic in school?
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19:01:28 <pikhq> Logic is fundamental to understanding math, science, and debate.
19:01:54 <pikhq> Oh, and philosophy.
19:01:55 <fax> is it though?
19:02:43 <pikhq> fax, how much math do you know?
19:02:53 <fax> all of it !
19:03:05 <fax> I don't know how to answer that really
19:03:06 <pikhq> Care to demonstrate?
19:03:43 <pikhq> A claim that logic is not fundamental to understanding math can, insofar as I can tell, only be born out by ignorance regarding what math actually *is*.
19:04:20 <fax> lets not talk about it then
19:04:39 <Warrigal> fax: if you did know how to answer that, how would you answer it?
19:04:50 <oerjan> as for debate, it is important to know enough logic to detect when others are _not_ arguing sensibly
19:04:58 <fax> Warrigal how could I possibly answer your question? :P
19:05:14 <pikhq> Debate is almost entirely composed of logic. Informal logic, mind, but still.
19:05:44 <pikhq> (well, logic and logical fallacies)O
19:05:49 <fax> kinda lose the will to discuss something when people start telling me it's ignorance
19:06:22 <oerjan> fax: well math at higher levels is based on proof, and proof is logic
19:06:49 <Warrigal> fax: if you knew the answer to your rhetorical question, what would it be?
19:07:01 <Warrigal> If these questions weren't positively silly, how would you answer them?
19:07:05 <fax> Warrigal stop paradoxing me!!!
19:07:16 <Warrigal> If it weren't a paradox... oh, never mind.
19:07:59 <pikhq> oerjan: "At higher levels"? I'd almost hesitate to call it math before you start discussing proofs and logic.
19:08:27 <oerjan> and science is much about testing hypothesis - and to test hypotheses you need to be able to reason about their consequences, thus logic
19:09:01 <Warrigal> Eliezer Yudkowsky would say that rationality should be taught in school!
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19:09:33 <oerjan> pikhq: well yeah but it is a bit insulting to people who can do numbers well but never get that far...
19:10:26 <pikhq> oerjan: But computation != math...
19:10:59 <oerjan> and programming requires logic too - to find bugs you have to reason about what the program should do and what it actually does...
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20:08:24 <Deewiant> http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs51/f/2009/265/c/0/Sauna_Time_by_humon.jpg
20:09:01 <Oranjer> ha, what? is the lesson Finland's an asshole?
20:09:17 <Oranjer> or do Finnish sauna's really do that?
20:09:37 <Deewiant> Yes, all of that is normal. :-)
20:11:44 <Oranjer> speaking of personifications of abstract, non-human concepts
20:12:36 <Oranjer> I intend to draw several such things
20:13:06 <Oranjer> and someone I know wishes to write a story about such embodiments of facets of reality
20:13:35 <Oranjer> and someone else I know wishes to make a game revolving around such anthropomorphisms
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20:14:56 <Oranjer> anyone got a concept for me to draw?
20:15:25 <fax> Oranjer when you learn about a new thing then it appears everywhere
20:15:45 <Oranjer> or at least, it /appears/ to appear everywhere, yes
20:16:08 -!- jix has joined.
20:16:15 <Oranjer> a common result of a human having a limited amount of memory, and of having what is called a "recency bias"
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20:16:54 <Oranjer> where, obviously enough, humans remember the last thing that happened more than those that came before
20:17:19 <Oranjer> do you wish me to draw the concept of "when you learn about a new thing then it appears everywhere"?
20:18:05 <fax> have you seen GregorRs programming languages?
20:18:14 <fax> personifications
20:18:29 <Oranjer> what are you talking about?
20:18:42 <fax> well there isn't a link
20:19:38 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ORK maybe?
20:20:07 <fizzie> I don't think it's really considered polite to whack *others* with a vihta/vasta/is-there-an-English-name-for-it; certainly applying it to yourself is a very common sauna behaviour though.
20:20:36 <Oranjer> that's why I asked if Finland is an asshole
20:21:19 <Oranjer> the file didn't take, I think
20:23:07 <Oranjer> it seems to keep breaking down right when it starts, sorry
20:23:40 <Oranjer> so uh what's up with this connection you say between these esoteric languages and personifications?
20:28:25 <Oranjer> I am waiting for transfer to begin
20:30:20 <Oranjer> I have discovered the problem
20:30:31 <Oranjer> it cancels the file transfer
20:30:44 <Oranjer> can you just email it to me?
20:36:41 <Oranjer> personifications of programming languages! yes!
20:38:29 <fax> I love it so much lol
21:05:05 <fax> Oranjer didn't you get it?
21:05:27 <Oranjer> I mentioned that that was exactly what I was talking about
21:05:49 <Oranjer> personifications, embodiments, avatars, anthropomorphisms, etc. of abstract concepts
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21:25:03 <Oranjer> hello ais523!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:25:34 <AnMaster> ais523, to avoid confusion (or not) oerjan != Oranjer
21:25:51 <ais523> and I met Oranjer outside #esoteric first
21:26:01 <ais523> how come every nomicer seems to end up here?
21:26:08 <oerjan> also apparently Gregor != Oranjer
21:26:25 <pikhq> Because nomics are quite awesome?
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22:46:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? About that OpenTTD adder. What if you had used a faster type of train? And possibly faster railway too (like maglev)
22:47:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and did you use path based signaling or just pre-signals/normal ones
22:47:40 <fizzie> Well, it'd be faster by a constant factor.
22:48:07 <fizzie> With a faster train and a faster railway.
22:49:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the path based signal-stuff?
22:50:30 <fizzie> And path-based signaling wasn't in OpenTTD way back when I did that stuff. I had to use a SVN checkout even to get the "new pathfinding" (NPF) stuff, which was quite some time ago, since they already have made a third "new" pathfinding (YAPF) thing.
22:51:05 <fizzie> Latest release at that time was 0.4.0.1.
22:51:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, so is that likely to work on modern openttd?
22:51:37 <AnMaster> anyway, what was the url now again
22:51:49 <fizzie> zem.fi/ and the link's on the front page.
22:52:12 <AnMaster> I mean, the save game or whatever
22:52:21 <fizzie> I don't think I ever got save games uploaded anywhere, actually.
22:52:43 <fizzie> Not... necessarily. But it is possible.
22:53:19 <fizzie> Only png files in the web-directory, at least. Let's check other places.
22:53:44 <fizzie> home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 21065 2005-10-21 19:49 home/fis/.openttd/save/gate.sav
22:53:45 <fizzie> home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 21578 2005-10-21 22:17 home/fis/.openttd/save/gatemap.sav
22:53:45 <fizzie> home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 21198 2005-10-23 13:16 home/fis/.openttd/save/gate20.sav
22:53:45 <fizzie> home_fis.tar.gz.lst:-rw------- fis/fis 32124 2005-10-23 17:00 home/fis/.openttd/save/4adder.sav
22:54:40 <fizzie> Extricating; will take a while to gunzip all that stuff.
22:55:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, just extract the relevant files?
22:55:50 <AnMaster> (pretty sure tar supports that)
22:55:55 <fizzie> It's a .tar.gz; it will necessarily have to gzip everything to *find* the relevant files.
22:56:25 <fizzie> I did extract only those, but since there's no tar-index-outside-the-gzip-stream, it can't really take any shortcuts.
22:57:09 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure which file is which, but at least http://zem.fi/~fis/4adder.sav is the most complicated four-adder configuration.
22:57:53 <fizzie> Whoops, forgot to mount my public_html directory.
22:58:41 <fizzie> Yes; it's physically on the web server, I just mount it to ~/www/ on this desktop to share things.
22:58:43 <fizzie> Anyway, now it's there.
22:59:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure what to share. I should run openttd and check.
23:00:17 <fizzie> There's "logic {1,2,3,4}.sav" and a "logic broken.sav" and "2logic, fixed.sav" and I don't quite know what the names mean. The one-track logic part is not especially interesting, since it's just so fiddly with the clocking.
23:01:06 <fizzie> I'll try to find the messy nor gate and the generic two-input logic gate, though.
23:03:13 <fizzie> I seem to have OpenTTD 0.7.3 installed here, that's pretty recent.
23:03:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, any easy way to remove the trains and then replace them there? I mean, to use the "upgrade track" thingy, the trains must be removed :/
23:04:10 <fizzie> Ugh, I don't really know. I seem to think there was some sort of trick to upgrading trains without having to manually copy the rulesets.
23:04:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes but also the trains are *everywhere*
23:04:41 <AnMaster> and moving them all to depots is ugh
23:05:20 <fizzie> You can send them into depots from the train list.
23:06:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that safe to keep the state? Hm
23:06:35 <AnMaster> as in, will things break when you send them out again
23:07:14 <fizzie> They shouldn't, though I'm not sure what those "input trains" at the A0 .. B3 labels will do.
23:07:32 <fizzie> They don't have any depots to go to, so I would hope they don't start wandering around.
23:07:45 <AnMaster> wait, you could split them up into another list
23:08:14 <fizzie> The actual per-gate trains should be safe to send to depots, since they do that all the time by itself too.
23:08:27 <fizzie> Anyway, you can also wait until I find the single gate; it's smaller to play with.
23:08:58 <fizzie> The nor gate is at http://zem.fi/~fis/nor.sav -- it seems to complain quite a lot about trains having too few orders, but other than that I think it still works.
23:09:30 <AnMaster> argh the messages about too few orders
23:09:48 <fizzie> You can probably disable those from the message settings.
23:10:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, prettu sure it is a openttd.conf thingy
23:10:13 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/gate.sav is the generic gate (configured as nand) I think I used to copy all over the map.
23:11:00 <fizzie> It could be that "Advice / information on company's vehicles" setting, but I guess that covers more.
23:11:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw that huge image can be shrunken with several hundred kb at least
23:11:46 <AnMaster> 3319743 3201065 96% ttd_4adder.png
23:12:08 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I don't really care, though. :p
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23:16:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw you can't make those trains actually reach a depot
23:17:18 <AnMaster> they just go back and forth between a pair of signals
23:18:27 <AnMaster> seems they can't find a route, any of them
23:18:28 <fizzie> Oh, right; you'll probably have to clear the inputs (move the A0 .. B3 trains to the "neutral" area so that they don't occupy either the 0 or 1 track) to get the gate-trains to depots.
23:19:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the neutral area?
23:19:29 <fizzie> Yes. The place where they don't occupy either one of the outgoing tracks.
23:19:50 <AnMaster> hrm no waypoints set there. Could move signals though
23:20:30 <fizzie> Don't the trains just start moving blindly if you release them? You can reverse them manually to move them to the right direction.
23:20:51 <fizzie> Alternatively, you could stick depots into the pointy ends, then you'd get it working by doing a global send-all-to-depots thing.
23:21:51 <fizzie> The gate trains won't move until the inputs change, to make sure that when the input "signal" is stable, they stay in the track area that's responsible for generating the output signals.
23:24:50 <fizzie> The nor gate's real messy, but the switchable generic two-input gate has a reasonably clear and simple structure; you have the gate-train branching first left/right depending on whether the A0 or A1 track is occupied, then doing another such branching based on B0/B1; then it ends up in a track segment that's connected to the output switchboard (so you can select which output signal is generated by any Ax, Bx pair), and finally the corresponding occupied track
23:24:50 <fizzie> s are connected so that it can't move until that input track clears.
23:26:07 <fizzie> That's just a mess, I have no idea how it works.
23:26:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, does the bridge type matter btw?
23:26:44 <fizzie> No, nothing goes over the bridges anyway (except signals).
23:27:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, will a dual length train mess up anything?
23:28:01 <fizzie> I don't think so, at least in the generic gate there's quite a lot of space wasted.
23:29:00 <AnMaster> anyway you have to upgrade one by one, though orders are kept
23:29:04 <fizzie> Actually I seem to have sort-of documented how the nor gate works on that web page; it seems to be a bit of a simplification since when A=1, (A nor B) is always 1 too, and so the gate train doesn't need to make that many decisions.
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23:30:06 <fizzie> I don't suppose you can use the autoreplace feature to upgrade trains?
23:30:26 <fizzie> I haven't really looked at these newfangled things.
23:31:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Why then does the Replacing Vehicles wiki-page say "Naturally it is not possible to upgrade between different types of train because the train would need to be able to enter a depot and leave as a new type"?
23:31:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can, except when you upgrade rail type
23:31:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: It means you can't go from monorail to maglev, for instance
23:31:40 <Deewiant> Since a monorail depot is not a maglev depot
23:31:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right, well, that's what I meant by "upgrade".
23:31:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is what we are discussing here
23:31:58 <fizzie> I guess it might not be standard terminology.
23:32:06 <Deewiant> I didn't see that in about 5 lines of context so I assumed generic upgrading
23:32:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: AnMaster wants faster trains so my logic gates would work faster. :p
23:33:56 <fizzie> I'm trying to think of a suitable analogue here, something about improving inherently useless things to be "better" but still useless, but can't come up with anything right now.
23:34:25 <fizzie> (Gone for a while now.)
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23:38:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, you said they didn't go over bridges? they do when neutral
23:39:34 <AnMaster> Oranjer, http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/
23:40:35 <Oranjer> reminds me of some sorta logical psychogeography
23:41:26 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography
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23:58:13 <Oranjer> oh? what time is it there?
23:58:44 <Oranjer> heh, I'm usually up 'til 4 in the morning anyway
23:59:07 <Oranjer> it's 7 in the evening here, EST! whoo!
23:59:43 <Oranjer> you got 6 hours of sleep, right?
00:00:08 <Oranjer> I usually got three hours of sleep a night during my school days
00:00:14 <FireFly[DS]> Something like that... prolly not enough :P
00:01:09 <FireFly[DS]> Writing with a stylus actually works quite well...
00:01:24 <Oranjer> oh? writing what? these words?
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00:06:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: The input trains might go over bridges if you let them, but you're not supposed to let them go very deep. And yes, apparently the gate trains do go over those two bridges in the "return" track, so there the bridge type does matter.
00:06:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: The gate trains shouldn't go over any other bridges, though (except maybe in the nor gate); if they do, they're a bit lost.
00:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would be better to avoid those being bridges in the ret track.
00:07:23 <AnMaster> does the trains ever go over those things *below* those return bridges?
00:08:28 <fizzie> No, but the branches from the things below return bridges are so closely spaced (well, for the "right-most" track, anyway) that I don't think you can completely trivially swap the ground/bridge state.
00:08:45 <fizzie> Admittedly I wasn't really speed-optimizing when I made the design.
00:11:00 <fizzie> The routing is probably optimizable. Maybe you should get ais523 or someone to apply some circuit layout algorithms hacked to lay down OpenTTD tracks?
00:11:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, circuit layout algorithms?
00:11:27 <ais523> circuit layout's mostly evolution + brute-force
00:11:36 <ais523> there don't seem to be any common "clever" algorithms
00:12:23 * AnMaster just made a 4 GB machine swap trash
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00:22:12 <ais523> AnMaster: swapping actual data would probably work better
00:22:39 <fizzie> That was pretty groanific.
00:24:28 <ais523> well, reverse-pun, really
00:25:07 <fizzie> Just read "trash" as a noun.
00:25:11 <ais523> because it wasn't a pun in itself, but rather retroactively forced an unintended pun onto someone else's statement
00:25:48 <fizzie> Non-consensual punning, how impolite.
00:26:39 <ais523> #esoteric: where it can take people over 3 minutes to get a joke
00:26:46 <ais523> (possibly over 4, I don't have seconds timestamps)
00:26:49 <fax> actually I'm still looking for the joke
00:26:54 <fax> I just like the concept of it
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00:27:16 <AnMaster> anyway I did it by opening fizzie's screenshot twice in gimp by mistake
00:29:26 <fax> "just made a 4 GB machine swap trash"??
00:29:39 <fax> swap trash with itself?
00:30:26 <ais523> fax: swapping trash rather than swapping useful data
00:30:31 <ais523> if it's trash anyway, no reason to swap
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00:30:59 <AnMaster> ais523, "swap trash" is however an accepted term
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01:43:16 <cers> Hello there, I am having some problems with the whitespace programming language that I figured you guys might be able to help me out with
01:44:43 <cers> the "Hello World!" example available through wikipedia (and a couple of other places, as far as I can tell) does not seem to work for me
01:44:46 <cers> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
01:44:55 <cers> does it work for anyone else here?
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01:47:39 <Ilari> cers: Are you sure it got copypasted properly? Some editors might mangle tabs or so?
01:48:36 <cers> Ilari: fairly sure - that was my first thought too, but I've tried in several editors, and as far as I can tell I have them configured properly
01:48:48 <cers> Ilari: would you mind terribly giving it a go? :-)
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02:40:32 <cers> why hello there :-)
03:05:37 <cers> Oranjer: you don't happen to be a whitespace shart, ehh? :-)
03:05:57 <Oranjer> I...am not a whitespace shart, no
03:06:06 <Oranjer> you mean, the esoteric language whitespace?
03:06:51 <cers> and yes - the language :-)
03:26:49 <cers> wuhu.. I've written my first Hello World! (in whitespace) - couldn't find a working example anywhere - not one with that exact output at least
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03:29:23 <cers> indeed - the one listed on their homepage outputs "Hello, world of spaces!"
03:29:52 <cers> and the ones I've found elsewhere that claim to output "Hello World!" (like wikipedia), I can't make work
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04:11:04 <coppro> Warrigal: you should help our plans to tear Agora's ruleset down
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04:15:02 <Warrigal> But that would require participating in Agora. :-P
04:15:22 <coppro> and the problem with that would be?
04:16:03 <Warrigal> Good question! What shall I do?
04:16:50 <coppro> just join and then when the appeal proposals start going through, help us vote them through
04:17:02 <coppro> or wait, you're registered but inactive right now, right?
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05:35:42 <cers> heh, I've made a Hello World!\n that runs in whitespace, bf, c++ and python... in 417 chars :-)
05:35:50 <cers> good thing my night wasn't wasted :-S
05:37:27 <coppro> does it use conditional compilation?
05:38:18 <coppro> polyglots are more awesome when they don't read if(C) DO THIS elif(C++) DO THIS elif(Java) DO THAT
05:39:14 <cers> well I wouldn't even know how to do that - but it's more or less based on the correct things being either not used by some languages, or commented out for them
05:39:33 <cers> or in case of bf and ws, they just plain ignore most chars
05:40:50 <cers> http://users.skumleren.net/cers/helloworld.ws.bf.py.cpp
05:41:46 <cers> I didn't even know there was a word for this sort of thing :-S
05:42:55 <cers> I started out trying to weave in the bf into a giant obfuscated c++ hello world, but figured it would be more fun to do it in as few hars as possible, and more languages
05:43:08 <cers> I know I can save some on the whitespace actually
05:47:43 <immibis> you could put spaces around the x in print(x)
05:48:02 <immibis> although i suppose that doesn't actually make it smaller
05:48:53 <immibis> there is a seemingly useless */
05:50:09 <coppro> immibis: the print() is a C++ macro, it needs parens
05:50:42 <immibis> then i realised it's the same filesize either way
05:51:20 <cers> ahh - remnant from older version I think
05:51:55 <cers> down to 407 bytes now
05:52:10 <cers> did some cleaning up in the ws too
05:52:24 <cers> url is updated
05:52:29 <immibis> also try including stdio.h and calling printf(x); instead of cout<<x<<endl;
05:53:18 <cers> immibis: "." is one of the few letters bf uses, so I try to avoid it
05:54:13 <cers> hmm - ahh! now I remember my original reason for not using that - but that has gone away since
05:56:04 <cers> although... there is one drawback..
05:56:33 <cers> I need a linebreak - but python already adds it
05:57:43 <cers> after "Hello World!"
05:57:49 <cers> I need it to print a linebreak
05:58:00 <cers> and I cannot use the char ","
05:59:48 <immibis> make it "Hello World!\n" and put a ; after the print?
06:00:01 <immibis> no, wait, that's a syntax error in c++
06:00:11 <cers> and I cannot use the char ,
06:00:23 <cers> but I got it down to 401
06:00:40 <cers> url updated again
06:01:00 <Sgeo> That's Python 3.x
06:01:05 <Sgeo> What about Python 2.x?
06:01:25 <cers> Sgeo: this works fine in Python 2.6.2
06:01:33 <cers> that's what I'm using
06:02:28 <cers> Sgeo: but only because I'm not printing several values - otherwise 2.x would think it was a tuple and print it as such
06:02:43 <Sgeo> cers, oh, didn't think of that
06:02:46 <cers> like if I did print("foo","bar")
06:02:53 <Sgeo> (I mean, as the parens not meaning function)
06:03:46 <cers> I hadn't exactly thought it that much through to begin with myself :-)
06:05:11 <immibis> surely #define x (1>1) is redundant, so is //< because it doesn't matter what brainfuck cell you start at?
06:05:15 <immibis> unless the spaces mean something
06:06:36 <cers> immibis: depending on the interpreter, you cannot go back from the first cell, and the include would attempt that with the <
06:07:11 <immibis> so nothing would happen...
06:07:24 <cers> though I could do without the back move I guess
06:07:37 <cers> my interpreter throws an error if you try
06:08:25 <cers> but good catch on the back move after include - that shaved another 3 bytes off
06:09:31 * Sgeo must be looking at an old version
06:10:25 <cers> newest version is up now
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06:12:43 <immibis> lets you delete the entire first line
06:13:17 <cers> immibis: and then tell the compiler where to find it manually?
06:13:38 <cers> otherwise "" would mean cwd
06:13:50 <immibis> yes, then the directories normally searched by <>
06:14:47 <cers> indeed it would seem so
06:41:55 <pikhq> immibis: Not to mention that that's not the type signature. ;)
06:42:06 <pikhq> int printf(char *,...);
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06:46:33 <cers> holy christ google is fast.. I wrote a small blog entry on the tihng, and like 5 mins after I publish I thought I'd see if there were others like it out there - and bam, there's my blog on the first result page
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06:48:18 <immibis> int printf(...) is shorter, and will work on some platforms, but not all
06:49:02 <cers> yeah - I'd rather have the include then
06:49:21 <bsmntbombdood> va_start takes the name of the last named argument
06:49:58 <cers> if I could only find my own hello world in brainfuck (my 3rd ever attempt came in at only 2 chars less than the guy who invented the language - 3 chars less than the standing record)
06:51:44 <cers> err "chars more"*
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06:55:33 <immibis> bsmntbombdood: it's a prototype for printf, not a definition
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07:02:09 <zzo38> Yesterday I have a dream
07:02:36 <zzo38> There was various clubs for the different elements types of pokemons: Water Club, Fire Club, Poison Club, etc.
07:02:43 <zzo38> And there was also Miscellaneous Club.
07:03:02 <zzo38> Miscellaneous Club had a rule that it was not allowed to have any members, so it didn't have any members.
07:04:08 <zzo38> Other than Miscellaneous Club, each one had two possible membership requirements, if you met at least one, you were allowed to join.
07:05:09 <madbrain> zzo: want to help me design an esoteric game system
07:05:22 <zzo38> The first was the common one: If you had a pokemon of that element type by just agreement those pokemons decided to go with you anyways, with not the normal way, that was OK. After that you can use a pokeball if you wish to, but it is not required. Masterballs are not allowed.
07:05:47 <zzo38> However, your other pokemons (if any) can be caught the normal way or anything else, even Masterballs are allowed here if you want to.
07:06:34 <zzo38> The other alternate requirement was different for each club and had nothing to do with pokemon at all (so if you have no pokemon, know nothing about it, whatever, that's also OK). The alt. requirement has something to do with that element type however, outside of pokemon.
07:11:01 <zzo38> madbrain: Do you know MegaZeux? I have built-in Forth interpreter into MegaZeux, so you can possibly use that to implement esoteric programming, too. And possibly even more confusing things, too, if you want to...
07:11:44 <madbrain> a forth retro system might be an idea
07:12:11 <zzo38> Do you mean Retro Forth, or do you mean something else?
07:18:19 <zzo38> I have written Forth systems, I can probably do it with assembly language or machine-codes, too. Which is, I do plan to do so one day, to build a simple computer with Z80 and Forth, and a OSD chip.
07:18:28 <zzo38> And that's just about all.
07:18:39 <zzo38> (Other than external connectors)
07:21:03 <zzo38> OSD for On-Screen-Display. It can be used to write text to the screen.
07:22:03 <zzo38> Later on, after I build that, I also plan to build a more complex computer with a ARM11 (possibly another processor?), some DSPs, a hard drive, DVD drive, front panel, USB, RAM, ROM, and some other things.
07:22:12 <madbrain> I want to design some hardware that could be realized in a FPGA
07:22:18 <zzo38> ARM11 is just what I decided at first, if there is a better choice I can do that too
07:22:32 <madbrain> you should talk to mukunda perhaps
07:22:54 <zzo38> I have also want to design some hardware in other ways, I have made part of a computer in Circuit Maker (digital simulation mode).
07:23:11 <zzo38> So, I have to put all the components for the CPU by myself, but I have some ideas already and already did some.
07:26:24 <zzo38> A simple RISC CPU.
07:26:50 <zzo38> It had a GOTO with each instruction sort of like the computer Mel programmed.
07:27:01 <zzo38> And various other things that are a bit strange.
07:27:12 <zzo38> Because it is very low-level
07:27:56 <madbrain> reminds me of the first esoteric system i came up with
07:28:25 <madbrain> basically an esoteric 16bit VM based on self modifying code
07:29:25 <madbrain> each op was, like, [ALU instruction][operand 1 address][operand 2 address][goto address]
07:29:47 <zzo38> I put in some registers that can only be increment or reset and cannot be written to in any other way. Some others are a bit different
07:30:22 <zzo38> The different registers acted differently, so you had to copy values from register into other registers a lot because each register worked in a different way.
07:31:24 <zzo38> Who is mukunda, anyways?
07:34:04 <zzo38> I have espernet on another window right now. Which channel?
07:34:22 <zzo38> (I just so happened to already have the espernet open)
07:35:16 <madbrain> well, he's probably sleeping right now, but he's in #mod_shrine
07:36:12 <madbrain> but he was talking about making some arm based system
07:36:18 <zzo38> :mukunda!mukunda@117.201.99.76 NOTICE zzo38 :TIME Fri Oct 23 12:05:59 2009
07:36:57 <zzo38> Does he sleep at that time? Or just not using IRC at that time? Is that the correct time anyways?
07:39:25 <madbrain> I'm mostly interested in sound chip and video hardware design :D
07:40:10 <zzo38> And I plan to do so.
07:40:45 <zzo38> Some ideas are, use a DSP for video, another DSP for audio, and for video also use a video encoder chip and a LPGA (I have heard that a LPGA is also required).
07:41:36 <zzo38> What would be optimal in my opinion, is to get a DSP that can be clocked up to make it do exactly two instructions per pixel at least. (Possibly more, but still an exact integer number of instructions per pixel would be good)
07:42:01 <madbrain> hmm but what would you do in those two instructions?
07:42:04 <zzo38> They told me that a LPGA is a small FPGA, and it is used to transfer the memory to the video output while the DSP is doing other computations.
07:42:33 <zzo38> Nothing specifically, if the LPGA transfers it, you can do anything you like there, it is used mostly for special effects and stuff like that.
07:42:50 <zzo38> I plan, also to do, the main CPU can send programs to the video and audio DSPs
07:43:15 <zzo38> What I have been told, is that normally a DSP does less than 1 instruction per pixel, because it isn't fast enough.
07:43:25 <madbrain> that's like, copy pixel, copy pixel... barely enough power for anything else
07:43:47 <zzo38> So it has to be clocked to *at least* 2 per pixel. The same person, what they say, is the LPGA is used to copy the pixels.
07:43:50 <madbrain> zzo: well, what are they, RAM timed?
07:43:59 <zzo38> You can do calculation during HBLANK and VBLANK too, of course.
07:44:17 <zzo38> I don't know if they are RAM timed or anything. I was told this, but I need more information, of course.
07:44:39 <madbrain> it has to do with timing for DRAM
07:44:57 <zzo38> Also it needs double bus RAM, with two address bus and two data bus for the video memory. That way the main CPU and the DSP can both access it simultaneously
07:45:06 <madbrain> if you do one full access each time you read/write something, you can go up to max 6mhz
07:45:51 <madbrain> and a low resolution mode like 320x240 @ 60fps outputs..... 6 million pixels per second
07:46:35 <madbrain> to do 3d rendering (with no z buffering) you need to have like 3 times the screen's area in fillrate
07:46:55 <madbrain> which means that you need cache (that's how the psx does it)
07:47:31 <zzo38> O, so that's why you do slightly less than 1 instruction per pixel. Well, I will figure it out, I guess.
07:47:41 <zzo38> Who is immibis? They just sent me a CTRL+A TIME
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07:47:57 <zzo38> O, they are on this channel
07:48:07 <zzo38> But why do such things?
07:48:24 <zzo38> Also the word "time" in lowercase this time (my client still accepts it in lowercase)
07:49:01 <immibis> some random guy who now knows that you're up at
07:49:02 <zzo38> So, how do I speed up the RAM? I don't know a lot about DSPs.
07:49:52 <madbrain> like, that's why 286s/386s/68000s can't go faster than a certain speed and aren't pipelined
07:49:53 <zzo38> O, you sent it a second time and this time in uppercase. Why do you do like that? My program accepts VERSION and FINGER and USERINFO too.
07:50:07 <madbrain> if you don't have cache you litterally can't go faster
07:50:26 <zzo38> Does DSP have cache?
07:50:49 <madbrain> but the side effect of cache is that you lose execution time guarantees
07:51:15 <zzo38> Is putting a space before the command work supposed to be work for CTRL+A command?
07:52:08 <zzo38> If the timing is a bit off I guess that's OK if it is fast enough and the LPGA is fast enough and the HBLANK and VBLANK clocks are usable
07:53:06 <madbrain> I'm not sure DSPs are appropriate for video
07:53:13 <madbrain> they do work for sound afaik tho
07:53:39 <zzo38> Ah. So, mIRC and LimeChat supports spaces between CTRL+A and the command word, I guess.
07:53:58 <zzo38> In this client, /ctcp results in "UNKNOWN SLASH COMMAND"
07:54:09 <zzo38> But this is a different client that I wrote myself.
07:54:14 <zzo38> That's why it is different
07:54:42 * Sgeo wonders if he should try making a browser that supports pages in some sort of database format
07:55:00 <zzo38> If DSP is not appropriate for video, how can I then build my own video devices then, instead?
07:55:17 <zzo38> I don't want to use the existing video card, I want to learn how to build my own
07:55:32 <madbrain> 1) simple frame buffer based hardware + fast cpu
07:56:55 <madbrain> "fast cpu" is something pentium-fast
07:57:02 <madbrain> with cache and stuff like that
07:58:59 <madbrain> also depends on what sort of gfx you want
07:59:56 <zzo38> I would still like to have a separate processor for the video, however. The FPGA or LPGA could be used as frame buffer is what I have been told about it. The sort of graphics is, just good 2D graphics on a TV screen is good enough, 3D is not needed.
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08:01:09 <madbrain> for 2d depends on stuff like what color depth you want, if you want lots of mobile sprites or you're ok with a boring game where nothing moves, how fast your cpu is
08:01:48 <madbrain> I'm pretty sure you could do a SNES style graphics processor in a fpga
08:02:10 <zzo38> If the video has its own processor that can be reprogrammed by the individual programs that you are running, then it can have a lot of effects. But there will be a default video program in there too, probably just to do tile mode and possibly sprites.
08:02:42 <zzo38> I can try to see how to do a SNES style with FPGA or whatever it is
08:02:50 <madbrain> the problem with something programmable is that you'd need a very very high clock rate
08:03:33 <zzo38> Well, I mean there can be a few extra components for support hardware too, such as a small FPGA to transfer data and possibly a few other functions
08:03:41 <madbrain> because at 320x240 at 60fps with 1 clock per pixel you're at 6mhz already
08:03:58 <zzo38> Sort of like a frame buffer function with a little bit of extra functions
08:04:05 <madbrain> also there are 2 fairly different paradigms for 2d
08:04:19 <madbrain> the other one is no frame buffer
08:05:24 <madbrain> ie to plot a sprite to the screen you (1) read the pixels (2) write the pixels (3) later on the video card reads the pixels again to show a picture
08:05:50 <madbrain> SNES is typically no frame buffer
08:06:26 <madbrain> basically on SNES you put all the sprites in VRAM on loading
08:06:57 <madbrain> then it renders the screen line while the previous line is being shown on TV
08:07:17 <madbrain> So it has (1) read pixels from vram
08:07:29 <madbrain> IE it uses 3 times less memory bandwidth
08:08:08 <madbrain> And there's not much cost for 60fps so all the games run smooth
08:09:17 <zzo38> OK, yes I do understand this OK
08:09:52 <madbrain> which is why you can do slow 10fps 3d on a 386 but you can't on a SNES :D
08:11:41 <zzo38> Other ideas I have for this computer, is, have NMI that is hooked to the main CPU and all other processors and components, and also to a flip-flop which sets privilege. Writing to a certain memory location will clear the flip-flop.
08:11:48 <madbrain> but a 386 basically can't run a 2d game at 60fps unless it "cheats"
08:12:08 <zzo38> Pushing all four buttons on the front panel at once is one thing that can make a NMI signal, but there will be others too
08:12:27 <madbrain> what are you going to use an NMI for
08:12:40 <zzo38> Because, I would need something to prevent programs from accessing partitions of the hard drive that it doesn't have permission for.
08:12:52 <zzo38> The other things for NMI, is for debug and terminating a program
08:13:03 <zzo38> In case the program won't respond, the NMI will force it to do so.
08:13:09 <zzo38> There can be many other purposes too
08:13:31 <madbrain> an HBLANK interrupt would be cool
08:13:39 <zzo38> For example, there might be some memory location to cause a NMI when written to
08:13:55 <madbrain> like, 99% of the SNES effects are HBLANK modification of video registers
08:14:09 <madbrain> and doing that is pretty much impossible on PC
08:14:34 <zzo38> Yes, for the video processor, if it does, it would have HBLANK and VBLANK interrupt (which aren't NMI). The main CPU might have a VBLANK interrupt if I decide to put one in.
08:15:41 <zzo38> However, HBLANK and VBLANK aren't NMI. (NMI is used for other uses instead)
08:16:04 <madbrain> for the video I think you should skip having a processor and come up with some flexible hardware in the FPGA
08:16:33 <madbrain> but then other stuff can steal your hblank interrupt :O
08:18:09 <madbrain> like, you could unify sound with video into a sort of fancy pants DMA controller
08:18:51 <madbrain> that basically does a data copying loop
08:19:37 <madbrain> you could easily add video modifying steps as stages in the pipeline
08:20:50 <madbrain> and make some DMA accesses able to trigger interrups
08:22:27 <zzo38> These are good ideas which I will consider
08:24:13 <Sgeo> A spammer sent me several lines... all of which contradict eachother
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08:26:24 <Sgeo> Um, I don't know if I want to post it here, since there's nsfw language
08:27:02 <madbrain> I don't think anyone here's going to be under 18
08:27:45 <madbrain> plus other irc channels routinely link to stuff like porn anyways
08:27:54 <Sgeo> ehird's under 18
08:28:18 <Sgeo> "me and my boyfriend just broke up so now im going to get even with him watch me and his brothr and if you know himn make SURE YOU TELL HIM http://tinyurl.com/------ my boyfriend is such a cheating asshole... Help me get back at him! Watch me fuck his best friend! http://tinyurl.com/------ me and my boyfriend just love getting naughty in front of strangers!!im blonde - 18! watch me get fucked hard http://tinyurl.com/-------"
08:29:44 <Gregor> Just a nymphomaniac with mood swings.
08:29:48 <Sgeo> It's just amusing that contradicting statements like that were in the same PM
08:30:07 <Sgeo> It would make sense with the latter one, then a few minutes later one of the first two
08:30:26 <Sgeo> That would seriously amuse me
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15:29:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? I solved the "don't change level" thing. Still have a bridge (seems you can't build signals in tunnels. Very odd
15:30:04 * AnMaster is used to simutrans that allows you to build complex underground networks if you want
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15:47:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, here is the improved gate: http://omploader.org/vMmxwbA
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16:18:44 <fizzie> Do you have any numbers, does the maglevity have any sort of measurable effect there?
16:20:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, hard to measure since the trains seems to start computing even before all of the input trains moved into place
16:20:17 <AnMaster> so no, but it seems less at least.
16:20:22 <fizzie> Sure, it's quite fuzzy.
16:20:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and I only converted one of the gates fully (the lower ground bit I mean)
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16:21:11 <AnMaster> the other ones I only converted the bridge closest to the depot for
16:21:28 <AnMaster> due to it being so fiddly for the lower ground stuff
16:22:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it annoys me no end that you can't build proper under ground networks in openttd
16:23:43 <AnMaster> huge stations under ground, possibly multilayer. However, there is one much worse issue with all games I have come across in this genre... That is that the scale of stuff is way way off.
16:23:51 <AnMaster> Compare the trains to the buildings for example
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16:26:04 <fizzie> Yes, well, realism probably hasn't really been a goal in most of the games.
16:26:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and that cargo is happy to go to any destination. At least in simutrans all generated cargo has a destination, and it tries path finding through the different companies networks to find a route there.
16:27:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah and you can only make 45 degree turns. Oh and in openttd roads can't go diagonally, only tracks can. Very odd
16:27:28 * AnMaster wants tracks to be vector-something
16:28:00 <AnMaster> high speed track like for TGV certainly doesn't make sharp 45 degree turns for example :P
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17:41:17 <ehird> "The Coming HTML 5 Train Wreck" on xmltoday.org. Brace for stupidity!
17:42:14 <ehird> "(a good indication of just how mature these deliberations are can be found in these IRC threads from a recent WHATWG meeting)"
17:42:38 <ehird> Noo, people on IRC being informal!
17:43:57 <ehird> "Vendors will implement those parts of the HTML 5 spec that happen to best fulfill their own particular objectives, and will be sloppy about implementing anything else - sloppy specs produce sloppy conformance."
17:43:59 <ehird> he should probably have written this before the majority of HTML5 was implemented by browsers
17:44:57 <ehird> Ooh, the comments are even worse:
17:44:58 <ehird> "Ever since I heard about the discontinuation of the xhtml group, I've had the feeling that Google thought they were pulling one over on the web community. They were going to bake some Google specific technology into the spec (which they are already using in Wave). What I don't think they counted on is that if they wind up bringing back the browser wars to try to gain competitive advantage over the other big IT groups, I'll have to take matters into my ow
17:44:58 <ehird> -- and build ENTIRE SITES IN FLASH."
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18:10:44 <ehird> "Yes-Stallman-you-also-helped/Linux"
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18:12:47 <Gregor> I installed Debian GNU/Hurd on my laptop so people would say "is that Linux?" and I'd say "no, it's GNU." and they get confused.
18:21:44 <Pthing> congratulations, you are worse than richard stallman
18:22:33 <ehird> Gregor: do... do you actually... use it?
18:22:51 <ehird> are you... are you even real, man... are you a person
18:26:15 <fax> lol Gregor
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19:05:08 <Asztal> I suppose I should say I'm using GNU/Windows when I'm using mingw.
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19:12:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. Read it hours ago. Forgot what it was about
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19:19:49 <ehird> AnMaster: oerjan: i contend that you both don't actually enjoy iwc anymore.
19:20:24 <ehird> forgetting it so soon :)
19:20:40 <oerjan> there are so many themes
19:21:31 <oerjan> i may know what is happening in each without remembering which was on last
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20:42:28 <ehird> http://zfs.macosforge.org/ RIP Apple's effort to port ZFS to OS X 2006? — 2009
20:42:48 <ehird> Cause of death: Probably CDDL.
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20:57:45 * Sgeo is taking a class on Oracle
20:58:17 <oerjan> the mind boggles why cmeme comes back when the website it links to disappeared years ago...
20:59:22 <oerjan> cmeme is an irc logging bot. but the website it logs _to_ hasn't existed for years
20:59:51 <Sgeo> Maybe it's starting to exist again?
21:00:18 <oerjan> nope, still nonexisting
21:00:27 <oerjan> i've seen it a couple times before
21:01:01 <Slereah> Who's bot is cmeme, though?
21:01:53 <oerjan> this blog may be the owner's: http://www.b9.com/blog/index.html
21:03:28 <oerjan> and on the sabbath too, afaik
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21:04:20 <oerjan> um sabbath starts at sunset friday, doesn't it?
21:04:36 <Slereah> I usually just remember "saturday"
21:04:44 * oerjan swats Slereah for being a useless jew -----###
21:04:47 <Slereah> I'm afraid I only celebrate caturday
21:04:55 * Sgeo is Jewish (not beliefwise though)
21:05:00 <Slereah> I should start a caturday thread soon
21:05:19 <Slereah> Let's go to 2chan's neko board
21:10:03 -!- ehird has joined.
21:16:45 <ehird> http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/
21:18:40 <ehird> "./.wine/dosdevices/c:/windows/profiles/ehird/My Documents/Colloquy Transcripts/"
21:18:43 <ehird> Now that's just ridiculous
21:20:14 * Sgeo can't draw ASCII diagrams for his life
21:20:32 <Sgeo> Not that I ever tried
21:22:35 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:29:18 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:35:35 * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----###
21:36:12 <Oranjer> anyways, I'll be back in half 'n' hour
21:36:37 <ehird> `addquote * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
21:36:39 <HackEgo> 94|* oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
21:36:57 <FireFly> Oranjer, nope, tea in your fly
21:37:00 <HackEgo> 39|<GKennethR-L> I'm a furry
21:37:04 <HackEgo> 27|<fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
21:37:10 <HackEgo> 22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
21:37:54 <Sgeo> http://normish.org/sgeo/quotes.txt
21:38:17 <FireFly> 26|<FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._.
21:43:37 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out).
21:58:21 <Oranjer> what's up with quote 22? did it really access an alternate universe?
22:00:50 <oerjan> that's the only reasonable explanation
22:01:09 <fungot> Oranjer: fwiw sml and scheme are very different, if i tell other people the population at large if not your direct peers.)
22:01:30 <AnMaster> whoa really? is that so fungot?
22:01:31 <fungot> AnMaster: it is. it makes it easy. i'm looking for
22:01:53 <oerjan> fungot is getting more intelligent by the week
22:01:54 <fungot> oerjan: looks like i have to click through dozens of warnings.
22:02:01 <Oranjer> what are you looking for, fungot?
22:02:02 <fungot> Oranjer: like in mips-
22:02:24 <Sgeo> fungot, what do you think about COBOL?
22:02:25 <fungot> Sgeo: and fnord really isn't a productive argument: it'll eventually reduce down to some base case is the empty game which gets close.
22:02:44 <Sgeo> Obviously, when I say anything, it gets dumber
22:02:49 <Oranjer> fungot, are you a reductionist?
22:02:49 <fungot> Oranjer: if you want to view it like that your computer blows up.
22:02:59 <oerjan> maybe intelligence is simply a sufficiently large markov chain
22:03:26 * Sgeo should try to learn what a markov chain is
22:03:27 <Oranjer> fungot, I would like you to exhibit intelligent behavior immediately.
22:03:28 <fungot> Oranjer: in a list? ( new lst) ( if ( sense ahead foe?) x" to give you a hint:
22:03:37 <Oranjer> huh, okay, that didn't work?
22:03:47 <AnMaster> Oranjer, actually maybe it did.
22:03:56 <Oranjer> maybe it was too smart for me???
22:03:59 <AnMaster> "sense ahead" sounds like a primitive AI
22:04:17 <AnMaster> input for a primitive robot AI or such
22:04:46 <Oranjer> and the foe? would be recognition of a "foe", at which point it does action x?
22:05:07 <oerjan> clearly fungot is scheming against us
22:05:07 <fungot> oerjan: an isp is not a language issue, if there is a case for the first, apparently: the product set of a set of flags, like fnord
22:05:09 <Oranjer> or maybe we're reading into it too much
22:05:13 <AnMaster> Oranjer, not sure about that. Need to see the context. Clearly that is just a fragment of the relevant code
22:05:22 <AnMaster> a glitch in the matrix so to say
22:06:11 <Oranjer> Apophenia is the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
22:06:28 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
22:06:55 <AnMaster> no, that is someone else who says that iirc
22:07:08 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is "Markov chain" not particularly descriptive of what the bot actually does?
22:07:09 <oerjan> tvtropes says that a lot
22:07:45 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it uses a markov chain, but from my understanding, that doesn't really tell you much
22:08:31 <oerjan> oh tv tropes, why art u
22:08:34 <AnMaster> after all it is "colour" so it would seem a natural spelling to use "troupes"
22:09:07 <Oranjer> while I'm okay with using any spelling to convey meaning (if you understand it, it doesn't matter the medium to me), I DO try to use endonyms wherever possible
22:09:22 <HackEgo> * An exonym (from the ἔcw, xo, "out" and ὄnoa, noma, "name") is a name for a place that is not used within that place by the local ... \ [15]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym \ * A name used by a group or category of people to refer to themselves or their language, as opposed to a name given to them
22:09:48 <Oranjer> I try to use endonyms as opposed to exonyms
22:09:51 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what has that got to do with this?
22:10:04 <AnMaster> because that `define was too terse
22:10:19 <Oranjer> Tv tropes uses the phrase "TV tropes" to describe itself, so I will use their spelling
22:10:27 <Sgeo> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Dissociated-Press.html haha
22:10:52 <Oranjer> reminds me of travesty generators
22:11:15 <Oranjer> http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/travesty.html
22:13:29 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you have to say to prove your sentience?
22:13:30 <fungot> Oranjer: uh, sorry, maybe a longer example? it's in the east side :p
22:21:43 <Oranjer> fungot, do you have a brain?
22:21:43 <fungot> Oranjer: mm. very rare indeedy
22:22:09 <Oranjer> oerjan, certainly you can eat the brain of someone less...important than me?
22:22:20 <Oranjer> because uhhh I'm totally very important, yeah
22:22:43 <fizzie> Fungot must've misread that as "do you like brains?" or something.
22:22:54 <oerjan> ah but i am a socialist zombie. down with the oppressors! then eat their brains.
22:23:39 <Oranjer> I'm not an oppressor! I am a benevolent dictator! I prevent the people from hurting each other and themselves without resorting to a dystopic police state!
22:24:21 <oerjan> that's what they all say.
22:26:54 -!- cmeme has joined.
22:27:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:28:17 <fizzie> (Just a random statement, not really a greeting.)
22:28:19 <Sgeo> "Do you believe in alien encounters?
22:28:20 <Sgeo> Yes, I believe
22:28:20 <Sgeo> I have seen one
22:28:44 <Sgeo> Oranjer, some poll on Facebook
22:28:51 <Sgeo> Advertising some movie
22:29:02 <Oranjer> also, I like how seeing one does not necessarily mean you believe
22:29:12 <Oranjer> I've seen the commo's for that movie
22:29:16 <ehird> [22:01] fungot: oerjan: looks like i have to click through dozens of warnings.
22:29:16 <fungot> ehird: well it _does_ make it a string
22:29:17 <ehird> fungot dislikes vista
22:29:17 <fungot> ehird: mzscheme has a type system
22:29:28 <fizzie> "I have seen one, but I habitually see things that do not really exist."
22:29:49 <Sgeo> I see things that don't exist every night
22:30:37 <AnMaster> <fungot> ehird: mzscheme has a type system <-- it does?
22:30:38 <fungot> AnMaster: why not on your usual os? sounds kinky. :p starting to get it running on da alpha
22:31:04 <Oranjer> awesome, fungot--you are my new hero
22:31:05 <fungot> Oranjer: there was fnord who isn't even in the typical case of actually watching ants duke it out in more interesting things.
22:31:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:31:26 <ehird> It does have a type system, yes.
22:31:28 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:31:38 <ehird> It isn't very good./
22:31:38 <fungot> AnMaster: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace?
22:31:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:32:02 <ehird> Different babble corpses.
22:32:02 <fungot> Oranjer: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
22:32:07 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:32:11 <ehird> Oranjer: Do the emoticon bug.
22:32:17 <fungot> ehird: letter 390. from a.r. wallace.
22:32:21 <fungot> ehird: in an early chapter :) this volume. when we consider how many parts :) fnord, in 1862 and 1863, by hildebrand in 1864, a post he resigned in 1894 owing to fnord his death was/ result.
22:32:24 <fungot> AnMaster: we are naturally led to inquire how long it is, however,
22:32:31 <fizzie> Darwin's well-known for his overuse of :).
22:32:32 <ehird> An error in the corpse-eater thingy.
22:32:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:32:47 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
22:32:48 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
22:32:52 <ehird> fungot: Legalistic!
22:32:53 <fungot> ehird: except as explicitly set out in the
22:32:55 <fizzie> That's what caused all the evolution debates; no-one could take him seriously with all the smileys.
22:32:57 <ehird> fungot: Legalistic^2!
22:32:57 <fungot> ehird: a player who has not changed eir role in a month or more properties all of the switch.
22:33:00 <fizzie> (Note: this is not actually true.)
22:33:01 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
22:33:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm picking representative samples for Oranjer
22:33:08 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, the draft on 3 may 2001. the proposed decision to allow burma membership is a clear danger that a major debate, parliament will give its cooperation. i believe that this position touches the limits of its powers voted by a 95% majority for europe to recover technological leadership through strong investment, above all, in this case the latter falls within the responsibility of the member states in case o
22:33:19 <Oranjer> ehird, you are talking way to fast for human-me!
22:33:26 <ehird> Oranjer: You can scroll up.
22:33:40 <fizzie> Or you can upgrade yourself. It's 2009 and all.
22:33:42 <AnMaster> fungot, I'm not the president. But whatever.
22:33:44 <Oranjer> but it just seems I'm getting a delay in communique
22:33:44 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i should like to say that when the council was trying to decide how best to prevent such an attack would be taken by surprise. the governments must have their support.
22:33:51 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, thank you for allowing me to ask what could have been resolved, at the united nations a significant and quantifiable commercial prejudice for all the key to establishing peace and stability in europe is available. this example was not unusual, unfortunately, is regularly raised during contacts with the council through the presidency of the council, and the future of europe are deeply concerned about the
22:33:59 <ehird> fungot: I am Spartacus^Wthe President!
22:34:00 <fungot> ehird: mr president, today's report is rather disappointing and current events are bearing out the words written by myself only a few years' time, and so that they could feel more closely involved. i only hope that we can make this work better for us and certainly very bad too if we are prepared to do or say. there is increasing concern and that concerns the union' s transport policy because it sustains bad management and fnord
22:34:09 <ehird> fungot: What a shame. We must cooperate.
22:34:12 <fungot> ehird: i will do it in the liberal group deplores the continued failure by the eu which is dominating relations between almera and morocco. in return, it will instead turn it back towards its own people, he called for stability and growth pact in all public finances, and to refrain from any act of violence perpetrated by the islamist guerrilla groups appears to be quite as fascinating in terms of education, to make provision f
22:34:13 <AnMaster> iirc there were some *not* starting in that
22:34:17 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i have a third step forward and will contribute to safeguarding biodiversity. agricultural reform is, of course, these studies always have a budget line to do so.
22:34:24 <fungot> AnMaster: madam president, we are of policy-making. an official debate will be held up in this way.
22:34:27 <ehird> fungot: I AM THE PRESIDENT, YOU FOOL!
22:34:28 <fungot> ehird: madame president, i can assure you that, on this issue. the constitution is a challenge, the sustainable fnord policy challenge to which we have embarked upon a slippery slope. this could cause the value of and respect for human rights in egypt and, for instance, can also be reached unanimously. more important than another. but this tendency is not towards the elimination of the " area of freedom, security and defence po
22:34:31 <ehird> fungot: And I am a MAN!
22:34:32 <fungot> ehird: mr president, taken together with our neighbour countries. we are leaving a margin of interpretation for which we shall likewise soon have on the coexistence of two conversion rates, in the world market for power generating equipment is ecu 3 billion a year, they have, and accepts the liberalization of direct mail would be impossible in view of the fact that europe pays, but is denouncing the wall because it does not nee
22:34:36 <ehird> fungot: THANK you.
22:34:40 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, mr president, ladies and gentlemen, despite the budgetary aid granted, european regions are far from being undemocratic, any interinstitutional agreement is an opportunity to reflect on for tomorrow’s meeting. i think that, for all their drivers, whatever their age.
22:34:44 <fizzie> He's just like a real politician.
22:34:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:34:54 <ehird> "Mr President, Mr President, ladies and gentlemen"
22:34:55 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
22:34:59 <fungot> AnMaster: 100 for l 1 to the aec signal is
22:35:02 <ehird> Please welcome the President!
22:35:13 <fungot> AnMaster: when discussing large, even though you have plenty of bytes which make it easy to debug your program needs to check the sprite- foreground collision register, however, you may see thn terms low-byte, high-byte order or lsb ( least significant byte ( is it allowed to take advantage of this pin is normally
22:35:23 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
22:35:26 <ehird> [22:08] AnMaster: after all it is "colour" so it would seem a natural spelling to use "troupes"
22:35:36 <ehird> bah! I am rapidly becoming disillusioned with the non-American spellings!
22:35:39 <ehird> mostly for minimalist purposes.
22:35:48 <fizzie> Incidentally, I might mention that I'm at this sort of an event: http://www.altparty.org/2009/ -- I guess it falls within the limits of possibility that someone else of the .fi people might as well.
22:35:56 <Oranjer> that "though" should become "tho"
22:36:06 <ehird> AnMaster: i.e., colour/color
22:36:12 <ehird> The only defence of the former is tradition
22:36:21 <ehird> it's longer, and doesn't reflect the pronunciation better
22:36:24 <Oranjer> the only defense for many things is tradition
22:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I would use colour except where part of a brand name (example: "colorsync")
22:36:33 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but why?
22:36:34 <fungot> AnMaster: because there is no way to pop the top of the characters `i', don't have some of the `m' by `ick'.
22:37:37 <AnMaster> ehird, because I prefer UK English in general. US English sounds so bad. Thus a mental connotation is created (or something)
22:37:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, "alternative" to what?
22:37:52 <ehird> How does it sound bad? That's silly.
22:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, of course that is subjective
22:38:06 <ehird> Some American accents sound crappy, but the "generic American accent" is pretty unobjectionable, if uninteresting.
22:38:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Alternative to other demoparties, mostly.
22:38:10 <ehird> Besides, we're on IRC. :P
22:38:16 <Oranjer> I prefer creating an idiolect
22:38:25 <Oranjer> from cribbing from any number of dialects and languages
22:38:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer, anyway does endonyms and such apply if you are not a native speaker of English at all?
22:38:45 <ehird> I use words like "gonna" :P
22:38:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, yes?
22:38:53 <AnMaster> plus I learnt UK English in school
22:38:58 <AnMaster> so it is hard to break the habit
22:39:00 <ehird> Endonym merely means "the name they call themselves".
22:39:13 <Oranjer> German's don't call themselves Germans
22:39:15 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Not sure if the word colour has a name for itself ;P
22:39:34 <Oranjer> I respect any group's self-given name
22:39:36 <ehird> Oranjer: German is different, thoughgh
22:39:41 <ehird> ColorSync is the same language
22:39:52 <ehird> but the German name for Germans isn't made for English
22:39:55 <Oranjer> ah! but endonyms are specifically cross-language
22:39:56 <ehird> so it's wrong to use it in English
22:40:13 <Oranjer> we can simulate the pronunciation using english letters
22:40:15 <AnMaster> is US and UK English the same language or separate ones?
22:40:18 <ehird> Their name for themselves is merely a word in their language.
22:40:33 <ehird> The differences are trivial.
22:40:44 <AnMaster> that was my point. Nice you agree
22:40:52 <Oranjer> of course, even that is subjective, the division between dialect and language
22:40:56 <ehird> Oranjer: So, why are you saying "German"?
22:41:08 <ehird> Yes, everything is subjective, stating so to everything doesn't make you interesting
22:41:08 <Oranjer> because I am ignorant of the German's name for themselves
22:41:12 <AnMaster> ehird, is UK and AU English the same languages?
22:41:16 <ehird> Oranjer: THAT'S OFFENSIVE
22:41:21 <Oranjer> something like Deustchlander?
22:41:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Same language, but a larger dialectic difference.
22:41:31 <ehird> Also a good helping of slang.
22:42:25 <Oranjer> also, why wouldn't I want to use a group's name to refer to them?
22:42:50 <ehird> Oranjer: The Germans also talk about themselves in German
22:42:59 <ehird> why wouldn't you want to use a group's words to talk about them?
22:43:08 <ehird> Because it's a different language.
22:43:19 <Oranjer> I see where you're coming from
22:43:49 <Oranjer> what about words that are, quite frankly, offensive?
22:44:01 <ehird> I don't consider words offensive
22:44:04 <ehird> their usage can be
22:44:20 <ehird> http://stali.suckless.org/ ;; sweet!
22:44:35 <Oranjer> if a group does not use a certain word to describe themselves, why should I use that word?
22:44:41 <Oranjer> because it's easier for me?
22:44:46 <Oranjer> that just seems spiteful to me
22:44:49 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> like using "Apache" <-- yeah. LigHTTPd is way better
22:44:50 <ehird> Because their word is a word in another language.
22:44:55 <ehird> Otherwise, yes, use their name.
22:45:01 <ehird> AnMaster: How ironic.
22:45:04 <ehird> It's called lighttpd.
22:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you noticed the joke :D
22:45:34 <Oranjer> ehird, what are you, L'Académie française?
22:45:36 -!- Halph has joined.
22:45:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Well... it wasn't actually funny, or anything.
22:45:42 <oerjan> ehird: name with raspberry included
22:45:45 <Oranjer> are you concerned about linguistic pollution?
22:45:54 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
22:46:12 <AnMaster> Oranjer, hint: Use "and" at the start of sentences to annoy ehird
22:46:19 <oerjan> le pollution linguistique
22:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I only dislike that based on aesthetics, tbh.
22:46:23 <Gregor> And just why would that annoy ehird?
22:46:28 <ehird> It reads awkwardly.
22:46:30 <ehird> Gregor: except like that
22:46:36 <Oranjer> why can I not use Deustchlander, or whatever word those people use to refer to themselves?
22:46:37 <ehird> you're not using and to connect two thingies, so it reads fine
22:46:40 <ehird> but otherwise it's awkward
22:46:44 <ehird> Oranjer: I just covered this, keep up
22:47:21 <ehird> [22:42] ehird: Oranjer: The Germans also talk about themselves in German
22:47:21 <ehird> [22:42] Oranjer: yes, and?
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:42] ehird: why wouldn't you want to use a group's words to talk about them?
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:43] ehird: Because it's a different language.
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:43] Oranjer: haha!
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:43] Oranjer: ahhhh
22:47:24 <ehird> [22:43] Oranjer: I see where you're coming from
22:47:26 <Gregor> (Bad joke:) Whenever I'm talking to somebody from Germany, I use the term "Douche-lander". I don't think they appreciate that.
22:47:31 <Oranjer> I don't care that it's another "language"--why would I? if I can pronounce the name in my own language, and I can simulate its pronunciation with my own written language, why not use it?
22:47:51 <ehird> Oranjer: So, to answer what I said,
22:47:59 <ehird> why don't you use their words and grammatical structure to talk about them too?
22:48:07 <ehird> Your answer is likely "because I'm speaking in English, not in German".
22:48:18 <Gregor> ehird: Knowing the internal name of a group is much much easier than knowing their entire language.
22:48:18 <ehird> I give the same reason as to why not to calk them Deauihdeiuashdwhateverlangers.
22:48:31 <Oranjer> but I can easily use English to simulate their name
22:48:36 <ehird> Gregor: It's not a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of justification, here.
22:48:45 <Gregor> ehird: Yeah, I'm seeing that now. I can offer none.
22:49:03 <ehird> Oranjer: You've merely asserted that.
22:49:08 <ehird> Anyway, this is boring.
22:49:37 <Oranjer> if I am part of a group of people, would I want a separate group of people to refer to my people with their word for "foreigner dipshits"?
22:50:04 <Oranjer> 'tis why I use Roma instead of Gypsie, and Inuit instead of Eskimo
22:50:05 <fizzie> Oh, is *that* what "German" means? I never knew!
22:50:28 <ehird> Inuit is as offensive as Eskimo, iirc.
22:50:30 <Gregor> http://gregcookland.com/journal/uploaded_images/picHasselHoff-747711.jpg <-- Hasselhoff having sex with a dog. NSF-sanity.
22:50:36 <ehird> Or, at least, not unoffensive.
22:50:42 <ehird> Gregor: it's loading
22:50:46 <ehird> why did I click that
22:50:55 <Oranjer> then I shall find the correct endonym! to google!!!
22:51:14 <ehird> Oranjer: Probably Qurntka'lr
22:51:52 <Oranjer> most cold-region languages have no use for clicks
22:52:12 <ehird> I was just trying to show why doing this sort of thing is fruitless
22:52:19 <fizzie> So how do they represent all the "teeth chattering" words, then?
22:52:31 -!- skylord5816 has joined.
22:52:37 <Oranjer> No universal replacement term for Eskimo, inclusive of all Inuit and Yupik people, is accepted across the geographical area inhabited by the Inuit and Yupik peoples.
22:52:38 <ehird> Wow! A LORD of the SKY!
22:52:51 <ehird> Do, you, like, MANAGE the SKY?
22:52:58 * skylord5816 slaps a large trout around a bit with ehird
22:53:03 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it's just one of the at least 5816 such lords.
22:53:21 <skylord5816> Which I haven't bothered to group but are all me.
22:53:30 <ehird> I suppose they're probably a middle-manager.
22:53:38 <Oranjer> no, Gregor, that's bad form, ha
22:53:44 <ehird> skylord5816: so, 1999 called, it wants your nick back
22:54:03 <skylord5816> I came here with a question about BrainF***
22:54:17 <ehird> skylord5816: have you been inducted into the magick order—
22:54:21 <ehird> clearly i do not have to pretend that we're an esoterica channel
22:54:31 <ehird> (we get a lot of them)
22:55:04 <ehird> skylord5816: Anyway, I've never heard of BrainF***, but I've heard of brainfuck.
22:55:32 <ehird> He's not using a wossname, entonym, wossname
22:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, wait what are you pretending we is an eosterica channel instead this time? XD
22:55:54 <ehird> that was uncalled for
22:55:56 <Oranjer> political correctness is no excuse for assholery!
22:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: "we is an eosterica"
22:56:06 <ehird> Oranjer: umm, dick
22:56:08 <Oranjer> I shall try to not be a cock to a stranger anymore
22:56:12 <oerjan> we are ostriches, indeed
22:56:16 <ehird> AnMaster: *esoterica
22:56:18 <AnMaster> skylord5816, keeping on topic seems hard today
22:56:24 <skylord5816> Let's say we have a [. Does the corresponding ] have to be called when the pointer is pointing to the same spot? e.g. is [<] acceptable?
22:56:33 <ehird> skylord5816: It is acceptable.
22:56:39 <ehird> skylord5816: There is no such restriction
22:56:59 <AnMaster> skylord5816, [<] is of course valid
22:57:00 <Oranjer> what's your real question?
22:57:01 <fizzie> [<] is even a not-uncommon idiom.
22:57:19 <skylord5816> My other question (I sort of knew the first, but wasn't sure) is whether the zero check is evaluated at the [ or the ]/
22:57:32 <fizzie> Well, common's not uncommon.
22:57:37 <Oranjer> I thought that, not sure though
22:57:51 <ehird> Well, if the ] jumps to the [ and not one instruction after it, it can omit the check.
22:57:52 -!- adam_d has joined.
22:57:58 <ehird> But that's less efficient.
22:58:10 <AnMaster> skylord5816, both. It corresponds to while(*ptr != 0) { ... }
22:58:10 <ehird> ? is useless, tell me what you don't understand
22:58:20 <Gregor> Semantically, it's definable either way. It's usually implemented as both checking, but like they said you can always have the ] jump to the [, and have the [ peform the check.
22:58:46 <Oranjer> the more ya think you know!
22:58:52 <AnMaster> Oranjer, skylord5816 Gregor, but if the cell is 0 on *first entry* you should skip the entire loop
22:59:02 <AnMaster> so well you have to check on [
22:59:04 <Gregor> Yes, [ always needs a check.
22:59:15 <ehird> Gregor: NOT NECESSARILY
22:59:17 <ehird> Make [ jump to the ], and have it check
22:59:22 <ehird> (Note: This is awful)
22:59:24 <Gregor> ehird: OK, that could work :P
22:59:25 <skylord5816> so if a[0] is 0, and a[1] is 1, and p is 0, would [>+] run?
22:59:49 <Oranjer> awful horrible stench of refuse
23:00:00 <Oranjer> Most Apacheans may not like to be called Apache and rather call themselves by the term from their language (e.g. Inde "Apache, person" in Mescalero).
23:00:02 <Gregor> It's while (a[p]) {...}, not do { ...} while(a[p])
23:00:16 <ehird> "Apache, person" how racist! :P
23:00:25 <ehird> skylord5816: let me define the two commands
23:00:32 <ehird> [ If the current cell is 0, jump past the corresponding ]
23:00:40 <ehird> ] If the current cell is not 0, jump past the corresponding [
23:00:49 <ehird> You can also make ] be "Jump to the corresponding ["
23:00:53 <ehird> so that the [ runs next
23:00:55 <ehird> but that's less efficient
23:01:02 <ehird> (the [ then does the check)
23:01:12 <AnMaster> skylord5816, see what Gregor said about the matching C construcrt
23:01:36 <skylord5816> so... [something] will run if the [ is non-zero and the ] is non-zero?
23:02:07 <skylord5816> I don't get Gregor's example, it's been a while since I last messed around with C.
23:02:25 <ehird> skylord5816: It's a loop.
23:02:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:02:43 <ehird> skylord5816: [something] just means "while the current cell is non-zero, run something"
23:02:49 <ehird> It's really simple.
23:03:01 <ehird> The cell the pointer is on...
23:03:06 <ehird> That > and < move...
23:03:09 <ehird> And + and - change...
23:03:19 -!- fax has joined.
23:03:26 <FireFly> So pretty much while (mem[pointer] != 0) { }
23:03:33 <ehird> He already said he doesn't kknowow C.
23:04:11 * AnMaster gives up trying to explain in order to not confuse it even more
23:04:32 <ehird> Well, clearly you've forgotten it, so...
23:04:37 <ehird> It's not really one-line, is it
23:05:33 <AnMaster> <skylord5816> I do, but I've not used it in a while. <-- joke I presume?
23:06:01 <skylord5816> Nope... the more I stay out of C the less I'm frustrated.
23:06:17 <Gregor> !c printf("Any amount of C can be on one line, so \"one-line C\" is meaningless.\n");
23:06:17 <ehird> Your tendency to make jokes without humour, AnMaster, has made you misdetect any old thing as a joke.
23:06:17 <EgoBot> Any amount of C can be on one line, so "one-line C" is meaningless.
23:06:17 <ehird> Least you've got that right.
23:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually found if funny
23:06:24 <ehird> skylord5816: That paste confuses me.
23:06:34 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Any amount of C can be on one line, so "one-line C" is meaningless.
23:07:02 <Gregor> Minus the vagaries of CPP
23:07:10 <Gregor> With its stupid '#' having to be the first non-whitespace on a line.
23:07:32 <Gregor> But since you can always just include the headers inline instead of using CPP at all, who cares ;)
23:07:39 <ehird> cpp is so upsettingly crap
23:07:50 <coppro> officially, you can't do so for standard headers
23:08:03 <skylord5816> I was using AutoHotkey for the translation.
23:08:07 <Gregor> coppro: Officially oshmishially.
23:08:12 <skylord5816> http://www.autohotkey.com/docs/Tutorial.htm
23:08:30 <ehird> I mean, nice program... bad language.
23:08:58 <ehird> cpppp: sed 's/#./\n/g'
23:09:11 <ehird> #include <stdio.h> #. #include <stdlib.h>
23:10:08 <Gregor> ehird: #define concat(a, b) a ## b
23:10:23 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"roge"20g"G">:#,_@
23:10:24 <fax> #define a ## b a ## b
23:10:26 <ehird> I'm scared — what does that let you achieve with CPP?
23:10:43 <Gregor> ehird: concat(hello, world) becomes helloworld
23:10:44 <ehird> I mean, what is its relevance to what I said?
23:10:46 <coppro> fax: congratulations. You made a syntax error with cpp
23:10:54 <Gregor> ehird: And your sed script would break that.
23:10:58 <AnMaster> coppro, oh? nothing worse *phew*
23:11:05 <ehird> Gregor: I corrected it to #\.
23:11:08 <coppro> that's no small accomplishment!
23:11:14 <skylord5816> http://pastebin.com/d32c0e3b4 <- in BF, AHK, and C
23:11:30 <ehird> skylord5816: That's not C.
23:11:46 <Gregor> ehird: I thought it was doing a different thing entirely :P
23:11:46 <ehird> while (array[pointer] != 0) {
23:11:52 <coppro> AnMaster: well, they don't come up often, because mostly CPP just tokenizes and ignores
23:12:31 <coppro> yeah, that's one of the few places where it pays attention
23:12:33 <AnMaster> what the hell is that language
23:13:17 <ehird> The last one isn't C, so I wouldn't trust any of skylord5816's code...
23:13:40 <ehird> AnMaster: AutoHotkey is a macro thing for Windows
23:13:46 <ehird> Automate applications, etc
23:13:52 <AnMaster> ehird, eh... ok. Applescript style?
23:13:57 <ehird> Handy, but the language is pretty... typical.
23:14:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't require application support.
23:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since almost all Mac apps seems to have such support that is no issue on mac
23:14:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Less than I'd like.
23:15:00 <ehird> (almost all apps support it, but I don't think most apps give total control)
23:17:00 <ehird> boy, I hate Genuine Windows Validation bullshit
23:17:13 <coppro> makes pirating so tough, eh?
23:17:26 -!- skylord5816 has left (?).
23:17:32 <Gregor> My solution is to not use Windows.
23:17:33 <ehird> it's booting into safe mode and running one executable
23:17:37 <ehird> Gregor: I'm toying with a VM
23:17:43 <ehird> it's like a retarded dog in a box
23:17:52 <ehird> amusing, but ignorable
23:18:01 <ehird> FireFly: FUCK PETA
23:18:20 <ehird> coppro: anyway, even regardless of pirating, it perfectly demonstrates Microsoft's customer hostility.
23:19:16 <ehird> "BOO! Activate Windows!"
23:19:32 <ehird> coppro: shit, I had to pirate my OWN LEGIT XP copy earlier
23:19:35 <ehird> because I'd used my serial 5 times
23:19:50 <ehird> so i downloaded an iso with a crack and said fuck it.
23:25:40 <ehird> "Poop, dood. Poop!" is a palindrome.
23:25:57 <ehird> `define diplodrome
23:26:02 <ehird> !define diplodrome
23:26:09 <ehird> `12w3edtgyhujikolp;[']
23:26:09 <ehird> Gregor: which is it
23:26:32 <ehird> `define diplodrome
23:26:35 <ehird> Oranjer: you make up words.
23:26:41 <Gregor> But "no output" just means that google define:diplodrome had no output :P
23:26:46 <Oranjer> http://www.halfbakery.com/lr/idea/Kind_20Red_20Kindred_20%28The_20Diplodrome%29
23:26:59 <Oranjer> I did not make up the word
23:28:10 <ehird> Anagram stories are more fun!
23:28:29 <ehird> (Anagrams of subsets permitted; pick a word, take all of them; they're your vocabulary.)
23:28:33 <ehird> Plus some common English words.
23:28:48 <ehird> "Atoms molt the stoma moats of atoms." is a snippet from one I wrote a while back...
23:29:15 <ehird> "Polish shops ruin hips" or something like that
23:29:35 <Oranjer> I heard it had some anagrams, looking it up now
23:29:58 <ehird> Remember to include subsets
23:30:30 <ehird> wait, it can't have been "Atoms molt the stoma moats of atoms.", that repeats atoms
23:30:35 <ehird> well, you get the idea
23:31:51 <ehird> wtf, the genuine advantage fails again?
23:31:54 <ehird> maybe i applied the crack wrongly
23:32:39 <ehird> you are bewildered by everything :P
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23:34:01 <Deewiant> ehird: With XP, a crack isn't enough to circumvent WGA
23:34:12 <Deewiant> (Unless the cracks have advanced since I last checked)
23:34:21 <ehird> I swear this worked normally last time
23:34:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what is the cause to say ? to that
23:34:41 <ehird> obviously it's another crack of some kind
23:35:12 <ehird> It blinds WGA's validator
23:35:36 <ehird> lol, I wonder if "javascript:void(window.g_sDisableWGACheck='all')" still works
23:35:47 <ehird> I'm still on creaky old Windows Update!
23:35:51 <ehird> Practically dinosauric
23:36:53 <Deewiant> Same thing if you just want to download some stuff from microsoft.com that's WGA-protected.
23:37:13 -!- lament has joined.
23:37:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Also non-microsoft.com, to be pedantic
23:38:18 <Deewiant> And my screen is bigger than your screen so I win
23:38:21 <lament> !!!!ESOTERIC!!!!!!!!!!!
23:38:27 <ehird> Deewiant: BUT WILL IT BE?
23:38:35 <ehird> AnMaster: You realise that esr actually thinks some pagan god possesses him?
23:38:38 <ehird> I think during sex or something
23:38:45 <ehird> He has an awful page on his awful website about it
23:38:49 <ehird> He is an awful man
23:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no I wasn't aware of *that*
23:39:16 <ehird> Deewiant: that mublinder site wants me to register ;_____;
23:39:43 <ehird> lament is our friendly neighbourhood op.
23:39:45 <Oranjer> why did you throw out affixes?
23:39:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to activate mublinder ;P
23:39:58 <lament> I'm an op, so I can do whatever I feel like.
23:39:58 <ehird> he is, to put it curtly, insane
23:40:22 <ehird> BANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANME
23:40:33 <Oranjer> ehird, do those bans cancel out?
23:40:33 <ehird> BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
23:40:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
23:40:50 <Oranjer> lament, do you know what the opposite of meta is?
23:40:50 <ehird> Heh, there are a bunch of logins
23:40:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you think he is insane?
23:40:52 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=ehird@212.183.134.*.
23:40:56 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
23:41:07 -!- lament has left (?).
23:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, did you expect that? /msg
23:41:47 -!- lament has joined.
23:41:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
23:42:06 -!- lament has left (?).
23:49:20 <AnMaster> for reference I dislike US-centric-ness
23:51:01 <Oranjer> oh, and I'm not here right now
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23:54:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:54:33 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
23:56:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think fungot died, it doesn't even respond to CTCP ping
23:57:21 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], try the right symbol :P
23:57:38 <FireFly> Blame the font on the DS client
23:57:55 <FireFly> I think it's hard coded :P
23:58:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, and what is >.> then?
23:59:01 <FireFly> Apparently I have no ` at all on the DS
23:59:10 * AnMaster remembers -_- and >_< and some more
23:59:37 <FireFly> it's hard to describe smileys
00:00:02 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], can you type åäöÅÄÖ?
00:00:02 * FireFly refuses to pluralise smiley correctly
00:00:39 <FireFly> I defined å, ä and ö as "macro" thingies
00:00:42 <FireFly> So I can insert them with alt-1, alt-2 and alt-3
00:01:14 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?)
00:01:20 <FireFly> The client supports DCC, logging, and some other awesome stuff
00:01:36 <FireFly[DS]> <01:00:26> <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?)
00:02:14 <FireFly> Meh, it fails at ASCII åäö too :P
00:02:19 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
00:03:15 <FireFly> Anyway, the DSOrganize client I used before can handle åäö correctly
00:03:36 <FireFly> due to being able to set up your own charmap manually in config files
00:03:48 <FireFly> So I altered it to wannabe-svorak (had to change some stuff for it to fit)
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
00:04:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, how does that show up there
00:04:19 <FireFly> Well, quite horrible, yeah
00:04:25 <AnMaster> FireFly, and does it show up well on your normal computer?
00:04:38 <fax> line spacing is too big
00:06:05 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what is "haha" about?
00:06:20 <fax> he's laughing at your attempt to render equations
00:06:40 <AnMaster> fax, no, at your failure to handle the perfectly fine unicode :P
00:06:57 <Oranjer> the link looks hell of different from what I saw
00:07:24 <AnMaster> Oranjer, then your font fails, your unicode support fails, or you aren't using monospaced font (even more fail)
00:07:47 <Oranjer> I am PUZZLED by this turn of events
00:07:57 <AnMaster> Oranjer, you are always anyway
00:08:27 -!- lament has joined.
00:09:52 <lament> if i don't do it, i'll forget about it
00:09:55 <Sgeo> I suppose there's no easy way to search for something that matches a regex in SQL?
00:09:58 <lament> and then i'll never do it
00:10:25 <AnMaster> lament, what about if and only if this renders like in the reference drawing (url in a few seconds):
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
00:10:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:11:07 <AnMaster> lament, I would say "FAIL" but what if your +o, I don't
00:11:12 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=ehird@212.183.134.*.
00:11:22 <lament> what are all those other entries in the ban list?
00:11:55 <AnMaster> lament, I think some were trolls
00:12:39 <AnMaster> lament, not sure I would say "all those"
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00:19:07 <ehird> only the second time you've said night today.
00:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah. But I didn't use an arrow yet did I ?
00:23:45 <ehird> There are other friendly front-ends to Linux, including the K Desktop Environment (KDE), but Gnome is quickly becoming the GUI of choice to run on top of Linux.
00:23:45 <ehird> "I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet and it's bound to a single programming language in Unix. Gnome from the very beginning has been accessible through any language. We are providing the GUI for all the languages and programmers can choose the language they like the most," says Miguel.
00:24:01 <Warrigal> Hey, it's an Ackermann function.
00:25:08 <Warrigal> Which I say to imply that the thing I wrote on a random whiteboard was also an Ackermann function.
00:25:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:26:27 <Warrigal> What I wrote was A(0,n) = n+1, A(m,0) = A(m-1,m) for m > 0, A(m,n) = A(m-1,A(m,n-1)) for m, n > 0, or something like that.
00:35:20 <ehird> "If you really must, pirate, feel guilty and don't lie to yourself." // boy, having sound economic arguments against copyright sure does help me sleep easy
00:58:50 <Oranjer> imagine there is an accent on the e
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00:59:43 <Oranjer> why...why does everyone in my life leave me?
01:03:00 <oerjan> try using a zinc toothpaste
01:03:21 <Oranjer> no thanks, I do not know the effect zinc would have on my dentata
01:04:47 <oerjan> my how opulent we are today
01:05:04 <ehird> lament: my first thought :/
01:05:05 <ehird> sp3 download so slow ;__;
01:05:08 <Oranjer> my...my gods, do those with vagina dentata brush their teeth?
01:05:12 <ehird> so slow that I use two underscores ;__;
01:05:26 <ehird> "Have to go brush my vagina now."
01:05:51 <oerjan> Oranjer: you mean, both sets? i think using two different toothbrushes might be in order
01:06:18 <Oranjer> also, ehird, I hate it when she uses that excuse
01:08:23 <oerjan> well if you must peep i can't stop you
01:09:28 <Oranjer> you'd best, or ah'll have to ask me peeps for the whip!
01:09:52 <ehird> no i mean this sp3 download
01:09:54 <Oranjer> it's almost as if they're designed against that
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01:20:03 <ehird> is it even downloading at all, I don't think so
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02:16:30 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
02:16:48 <augur> how come oranjer always leaves before i show yp?
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03:31:49 <ehird> http://www.idefex.net/b3takhan/graphs/ffffffffffffu*.png
03:33:54 <Gregor> Somebody's ripping off Ryan North :P
03:35:26 <Sgeo> ehird, there needs to be a 3 dimensional graph, for number of f's and number of u's
03:35:38 <ehird> Gregor: The Kha*n thing predates that
03:35:44 <ehird> and so does that graph generator
03:35:51 <ehird> RYAN NORTH IS AN IMITATOR
03:36:16 <ehird> it would be fun to have a 3d graph though
03:36:22 <ehird> if i wasn't lazy i'd do it in mathematica
03:36:51 <Gregor> Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, princess!
03:44:49 <ehird> A spiralling staircase of uncut grass!
03:49:15 <ehird> http://stali.suckless.org/ has made me want to play around with compiling linux kernels
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05:08:26 <fungot> Oranjer: so with all this in mind, please look at the very beginning of the article. we don't have an article about settlements, fnord or fnord.
05:10:19 * Sgeo starts worshiping the shit
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05:18:09 <Oranjer> oh no augur oh shit oh shit
05:18:34 <augur> tell me more of your silly ideas
05:18:49 <Oranjer> that's my second best pick-up line, actually
05:19:01 <augur> are you hitting on me?
05:19:14 <augur> are you a sexy gay boy?
05:19:27 <augur> its a simple question!
05:19:33 <augur> are you sexy, gay, and a boy
05:20:00 <augur> well stop hitting on me then! :|
05:20:19 <Oranjer> you linguists read to much into things ahhhh
05:20:59 <augur> its more that ive been on a kick lately fucking with people like that
05:21:06 <augur> poor kids in in proggit
05:21:15 <Oranjer> no idea what that means but okay
05:22:20 <Oranjer> I should probably ask you, as I have heard it is a sorta-controversial thing amongst linguists
05:22:40 <augur> oh no controversy! :O
05:22:43 <Oranjer> what is your stance on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis?
05:23:09 <augur> the extent to which it "exists" is boringly uninteresting.
05:23:48 <Oranjer> wait, the controversy, or the phenomena described by the Hypothesis?
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05:28:05 <augur> the S-W hypothesis.
05:28:18 <augur> the extent to which it exists is boring.
05:32:12 <ehird> AIUsdhasiufhdiuhsiguhsdfg
05:32:28 <ehird> ugh, about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
05:32:34 <augur> its a stupid hypothesis.
05:32:38 <ehird> almost entirely debunked
05:32:39 <augur> hence why were not talking about it anymore.
05:32:44 <ehird> and what little remains is entirely unfun!
05:33:04 <ehird> sapir-whorf is kinda like one of those things i sorta wish was true
05:33:07 <Oranjer1> I have moved on to Sociology! :O
05:33:16 <augur> so im watching Moon
05:33:17 <ehird> also quantum tunneling for FTL transmission
05:33:34 <ehird> i love the name of that movie
05:33:39 <ehird> it has completely monopolised
05:33:41 <Oranjer1> (I was just thinking of that word)
05:33:45 <augur> they're doing the whole "space mission so we have to send recorded videos and blah blah blah so far away no communication oh no isolation D:"
05:33:46 <ehird> and removed it from the pool
05:33:50 <ehird> of all future moon-related movies
05:33:56 <ehird> and it does this JUST BECAUSE IT CAN
05:34:03 <ehird> translation to all lunar-related movie makers:
05:34:18 <augur> the problem with this little scenario is
05:34:20 <ehird> "Nightstar... wait"
05:34:27 <augur> the moon is only 2 seconds away by radio
05:34:29 <Oranjer1> "That thing in space that SURROUNDS us"
05:34:37 <Oranjer1> they aren't using radio, augur
05:35:00 <augur> it takes five seconds to look this kind of thing up
05:35:05 <ehird> augur: would you prefer they called it
05:35:13 <ehird> Andromeda 33C-01/22348576-4
05:35:16 <augur> you couldve at least put the base around jupiter or saturn or something
05:35:18 <Oranjer1> wait--how do we know it's our moon? can he see earth from that?
05:35:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:35:29 <augur> because that way it would take time for the messages to travel to earth
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05:35:41 <ehird> the moon is nicer than those places, though.
05:35:47 <ehird> it's all rocky and grey!
05:35:57 <ehird> ...like an emo kid...
05:36:05 <augur> you're an emo kid.
05:36:29 <augur> youve got long black hair
05:36:35 <augur> you look like you're gay but swear you're not
05:36:57 <Oranjer> now now, that is no way to talk to an emo herd!
05:37:02 <augur> and you complain all the time about people mistreating you because they just dont understand
05:37:06 <Oranjer> they might cause a suicidal stampede!
05:37:09 <ehird> *cut cut cut cut CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT*
05:37:14 <ehird> CUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUT
05:37:23 <ehird> IT'S COMING FOR YOU
05:37:34 <ehird> *suddenly, My Chemical Romance plays*
05:37:48 <augur> have you seen galipokas little video with that at the end?
05:38:15 <augur> with making fun of emo kids
05:38:21 <ehird> making fun of emo kids? HOW NOVEL
05:38:51 <augur> at the end he plays a very brief clip with the "i think im emo" song, and a video of him sawing at his wrists with a pair of plastic safety scissors
05:39:25 <Oranjer> I want to see an emo kid use a saw
05:39:51 <Oranjer> an emo kid falls off a church roof, arms stretched out, and his wrists land on upturned saw blades
05:40:42 <augur> an emo kid kills himself in the woods
05:40:46 <augur> does he make a sound?
05:41:32 <Oranjer> I have never been able to tell the difference
05:41:40 <ehird> IT IS IN FACT THE SAME WAY AS YOU DIE.
05:41:51 <ehird> YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
05:42:04 <ehird> no, spontaneous quantum existence failure
05:42:23 <ehird> yes you can, with enough luck
05:42:38 <Oranjer> There's no luck in quantum mechanics! HA
05:44:56 <ehird> i like this rapid-fire subjectness
05:45:18 <Oranjer> ha, this is gonna get one of us killed, I know it
05:45:45 <ehird> bullshit, bunkum, designed to control the masses, unfalsifiable, god of the gaps is rapidly failing, yawn
05:46:08 <augur> dont you pay attention?
05:46:27 <augur> also, you suck at linguistics.
05:46:31 <Oranjer> I thought you were being metaphysical or whatever, like you were watching it in your head
05:46:43 <Oranjer> that's no way to talk to a stranger!
05:46:53 <Oranjer> No one should be a cock to a stranger, *ever*.
05:48:07 <augur> its not that they screwed up ehird
05:48:07 <augur> the satellite that normally would relay life communications is "down"
05:48:53 <Oranjer> what are we gonna do about: childhood indoctrination?
05:49:42 <ehird> wait for the religious to die off.
05:50:02 <Oranjer> that can't happen--*they don't believe in birth control!* :O
05:50:19 <Oranjer> *everyone* can't move to the uk
05:50:26 <ehird> don't move to the UK— it's shit
05:50:43 <Oranjer> also, eugenics would hardly fix childhood gullibility
05:50:50 <ehird> it'd stop the religious breeding :P
05:51:05 <ehird> (well, with a sufficiently brutal program. of course the ethics of that could be debated, but MAD SCIENTIST TIME!)
05:51:27 <Oranjer> and they control missiles and shit
05:51:37 <ehird> well, I'm assuming you're in a position of authority
05:51:49 <Oranjer> assume I am a street urchin, of course
05:51:52 <ehird> or at least with a similar-minded governmental body
05:51:56 <Oranjer> assume you are you and I am I
05:52:06 <Oranjer> how do we stop childhood indoctrination???
05:52:07 <ehird> Oranjer: serial killing, followed by suicide as the only way to fix your now permanently damaged psyche
05:52:31 <Oranjer> I would be acting as an "atheist role model"
05:52:55 <Oranjer> and it would just give the religious an excuse to shove GAAAWD down the kid's throats
05:53:33 <Oranjer> also, ehird, I doubt you've actually thought this out--are you even trying anymore? or have you given up?
05:53:34 <ehird> serial killing = every single religious person, naturally
05:53:52 <ehird> oh you want real solutions?
05:54:10 <ehird> singularity! has some side-effects. may contain peanuts.
05:54:30 <Oranjer> so we hasten the Singularity, wonderful
05:54:34 <ehird> side-effects include complete extinction of humanity as we know it, earth becoming a minor datapoint, etc etc etc, do not use while pregnant
05:54:52 <Oranjer> any ideas how to do that by 2030?
05:55:50 <ehird> augur: what, by studying linguistics?
05:56:48 <augur> i just wanted to continue the whole
05:56:55 <augur> thing that you had there
05:57:00 <ehird> elaborate on "im working on it" :P
05:57:33 <augur> i /am/ working on something that might have applications in that domain
05:57:44 <ehird> doesn't that apply to like
05:57:47 <Oranjer> oh, sorry, I didn't notice the Walrus in the room, sorry
05:57:48 <ehird> most of all science
05:58:06 <Oranjer> WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO lose? your dignity?
05:58:07 <augur> but i mean more directly, ehird.
05:58:14 <ehird> Oranjer: your caps lock?
05:58:20 <augur> yeah i could lose that.
05:58:49 <augur> part of the work i do on linguistics also involves a conceptual system
05:59:01 <augur> that might be extendable to some AI tasks
05:59:32 <ehird> i'm fairly sure enso damages your hands (also it's unmaintained)
06:00:19 <ehird> damages your hands = typing text while holding capslock
06:00:23 <ehird> your left hand will looooooove you
06:00:57 <ehird> like the "OH GOD THE CRIPPLING PAIN" kind
06:01:00 <ehird> wait, that's still ambiguous
06:01:16 <augur> enso is boringly simple.
06:01:31 <ehird> boringly simple is a pretty good praise of usability
06:01:38 <Oranjer> who shall suggest the next topic?
06:01:44 <ehird> boring = i didn't notice it bother me, simple = i didn't have to think much
06:01:47 <augur> and aza raskin makes me want to punch him in the face
06:01:50 <ehird> of course useless is rather less praisey....
06:01:50 <augur> he talks artificially
06:02:04 <Oranjer> what's wrong with the Aza to you, punk?
06:02:11 <ehird> although jef is cooler
06:02:30 <ehird> Enso was like the prototype for ubiquity, except ubiquity makes you use firefox; eww.
06:02:34 <augur> but its ... useless
06:02:50 <Oranjer> ehird, firefox's awesome bar removes most of the use of ubiquity
06:03:02 <ehird> it doesn't do anything ubiquity does
06:03:07 <ehird> and ubiquity postdates the awesomebar
06:04:33 <augur> i want to build an agent program.
06:04:39 <Sgeo> Define "agent"
06:05:06 <augur> one of those things that chases renegages through the matrix!
06:05:49 <Oranjer> "Captain! What do we do now!" "Don't Worry--we'll just have to RE-ENGAGE!"
06:05:50 <ehird> antecedent bricks, i should sleep soon :)
06:06:04 <augur> and by that i mean
06:06:04 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent
06:07:07 <augur> something that has a relatively general understanding of the workings of the computer's software (in the sense that quicksilver does)
06:07:49 <augur> but which can be issued complex commands (preferably verbally) that might require a more complicated process than simply issuing a single method call to something
06:07:55 <Oranjer> "Agent, Open my Email." "I can't do that, Augur."
06:07:57 <ehird> speech recognition sucks.
06:08:16 <ehird> furthermore, i think clearer while i type
06:08:19 <ehird> so fuck speech recog
06:08:26 <augur> well you can type if you want :p
06:08:27 <ehird> haptic input, and then straight to brain control
06:08:33 <ehird> all the rest is fluff
06:08:50 <augur> i want to try and get something that can take complex linguistic commands and execute them
06:09:05 <ehird> requires strong ai
06:09:22 <Oranjer> why not just use a formalized English or whatever? with a rigid structure?
06:09:23 <augur> quick silver is like a very primitive version of this
06:09:34 <augur> it has a small, but powerful lexicon of nouns and verbs
06:09:47 <ehird> quicksilver doesn't let you issue natural commands at all
06:09:51 <augur> and you can, /effective/y, feed it simple sentences
06:10:09 <augur> ofcourse theyre in the weird quicksilver dialect, but
06:10:43 <augur> what i intend would be something like quicksilver, in that it has a "vocabulary" of sorts
06:10:55 <augur> or more accurately
06:11:11 <augur> it has a subset of english as its grammar
06:11:24 <augur> and it has a well defined QS-like set of hooks into other applications
06:11:43 <augur> hooks which, in this case, interface not with a surface grammatical form like in QS
06:11:51 <augur> but instead with a decomposed semantic representation
06:12:02 <augur> that is defined over the grammar
06:13:22 <augur> theres actually a fairly powerful technique called frame semantics that's been used for automatic story comprehension
06:13:45 <ehird> i need to sleep soon
06:13:54 <augur> enough so that the system can actually use its frame semantic knowledge to take a story about a guy going to a restaurant via train and bus
06:14:00 <augur> and then "going home"
06:14:08 <augur> even tho he had no money
06:14:15 <augur> and if you ask the system how he got home if he has no money
06:14:25 <augur> the computer will say "he probably had a return ticket!"
06:14:42 <augur> so it actually infers beyond what is explicit to what is reasonably deducible
06:14:57 <Oranjer> "Pay for my taxi, FS." "I can't do that, Dave."
06:15:02 <augur> because it has a collection of situational frames that
06:15:26 <Oranjer> I think I would call that anologous relational structures
06:15:41 <ehird> augur: tl;dr almost all of it is hardcoded
06:15:51 <ehird> teaching it about everything = wooooooooooooon't work
06:16:03 <augur> indeed, much of the frame semantic knowledge is hard coded
06:16:06 <augur> but its stuff like
06:16:19 <augur> "train-trips frame"
06:16:21 <augur> or something like that
06:16:39 <augur> which encodes things like who does what etc before during and after a train trip
06:16:46 <Oranjer> A computer that can bisociate? wonderful!
06:16:57 <augur> and then you have a system that can calculate over that
06:17:10 <Oranjer> so how far are you, augur?
06:17:19 <augur> the systems ive seen are indeed limited
06:17:28 <augur> im not looking to make AI from this
06:17:37 <augur> im saying it'd make an interesting quicksilver-like app
06:17:56 <Oranjer> so what *are* you actually doing?
06:18:05 <augur> if you had a set of frame semantics + a linguistic engine
06:18:18 <augur> so that you can issue complex commands that are consistent with the frame semantic knowledge the program has
06:18:22 <augur> and then the program will execute it
06:18:40 <augur> something like a hybrid between quicksilver, applescript, and automator
06:18:59 <augur> watching startrek! :|
06:19:21 <augur> what do you mean what am i doing
06:20:18 <Oranjer> what are you doing, with all these ideas and whatnot for frame thingies and stuff?
06:20:45 <Oranjer> I believe we asked you what you were working on to hasten the Singularity to end religious indoctrination in children
06:20:52 <augur> im working on the conceptual semantic stuff
06:21:14 <augur> which would be necessary for a proper linguistic engine
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06:21:24 <augur> THAT could then be used to construct the agent app
06:21:26 <zzo38> How do you play a infernal offshoot of The Price Is Right?
06:21:47 <Oranjer> by...guessing absurdly large amounts of money?
06:21:52 <zzo38> And if you had to beat the Grim Reaper at one of these games to avoid death, which one would you prefer: chess, poker, or mahjong?
06:21:54 <ehird> i have no idea how to answer that
06:22:08 <Oranjer> less luck then poker or mahjong
06:22:15 <ehird> poker, obviously death is perfect at the other two
06:22:15 <zzo38> I don't know either, but in order to know how to play, you have to know the rules, too, I guess.
06:22:18 <ehird> and poker is the most chance-based
06:22:22 <ehird> so i have the best chance
06:22:30 <Oranjer> hmm, ehird does make a good point
06:22:55 <Oranjer> but why should we assume the ol' Grimmy is the best at chess and mahjong?
06:23:00 <ehird> also, if there's a grim reaper there's probably an afterlife dealie of some sort, so i wouldn't care too much
06:23:08 <ehird> Oranjer: because he's post-mortal.
06:23:14 <ehird> supernatural. antitranscendent.
06:23:21 <Oranjer> he could never have been alive, ya know
06:23:26 <ehird> demon lord of the underworld. well, that's more satan
06:23:27 <zzo38> Yes, these are good point. I thought of it too, of course. But I got the idea at first from something in a list of adventure ideas for D&D game
06:23:37 <ehird> the odds are better that he's better than me, imo.
06:23:46 <Oranjer> heh, okay, you win there ehird
06:25:59 <ehird> Windows VM fun: oh fuck off, IE, I installed your update, so leave me alone and don't aadd me to my goddamn quick launch
06:26:08 <ehird> hee hee this is amusing in some sick, twisted way
06:27:06 <Oranjer> bah! that's why I'm an advocate of 'permission marketing'
06:27:13 <Oranjer> and no, i didn't make that one up
06:27:24 <ehird> what does that even mean
06:28:19 <zzo38> Yes, I also want to know what it means because I don't quite understand completely either.
06:28:32 <Oranjer> okay I will get you the wikiwiki link uh okay
06:28:45 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permission_marketing
06:29:22 <zzo38> I just found the same link
06:29:24 <Oranjer> I'm saying that intrusive software is an expected result of living in a culture infested with interruptive marketing
06:29:49 <ehird> Oranjer: you're boring!
06:29:54 <ehird> also it's the OS's fault.
06:30:30 <Oranjer> :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
06:31:35 <Oranjer> hey augur what do you think about: E-prime!
06:32:14 <zzo38> If you wrote a Linux distribution, which things would you change?
06:32:25 <zzo38> (Or a completely new OS)
06:32:46 <Oranjer> make it a physics based grammar! yaaaay
06:34:05 <Oranjer> make the the human-computer interaction based entirely on conditionals represented through the physical placement of objects along any number of scales
06:35:18 <Oranjer> merely stating the contradiction without adding anything to the discussion
06:35:34 <augur> there was no contradiction
06:35:35 <Oranjer> no. yes. no. YES. NO. AARFGGHSKF That is how wars are started!
06:35:41 <augur> you used an imperative.
06:35:49 <augur> i simply said no to that imperative.
06:36:42 <Oranjer> doing something with frames
06:37:02 <Oranjer> "I'm a linguist. Doing something with frames!" (copyright)
06:37:16 <ehird> framing your mother
06:41:35 <ehird> yay install sp 3 like a magic
06:42:28 <Oranjer> hey uh I am gone for a bit see you later uh okay
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07:18:35 <ehird> garfieldwithoutgarfieldorjonoranyofthecharactersoranypanelapartfromthefirst.com
07:19:11 <madbr> does your irc client have a proportionnal font?
07:19:51 <madbr> ok here's the first comic
07:19:52 <madbr> .--------------------------.
07:20:08 <madbr> |__________________________|
07:20:14 <ehird> you forgot the horizon line
07:20:18 <ehird> and the different wall and floor
07:20:23 <ehird> and also any plants that may be present
07:20:29 <ehird> the possibilities are endless
07:20:54 <madbr> that's what your mom said
07:29:01 <madbr> about auxlangs, they should have, like, easy to pronounce sounds that most languages have :O
07:29:23 <Oranjer> heh, tell that to augur, he believes natural languages are "efficient enough"
07:29:32 <Oranjer> AUGUR I HAVE SUMMONED YOU!
07:29:59 <augur> and auxlangs often do have easy to pronounce sounds
07:30:18 <madbr> well, natural languages are often not too "clean" but very expressive
07:30:32 <Oranjer> expressive about the familiar, yeah
07:30:45 <madbr> the worst one they have normally is, what, /v/ ?
07:30:53 <augur> /all/ sounds are easy to pronounce
07:31:03 <augur> its just that once you learn a language, you forget how to pronounce them
07:31:21 <augur> its just voiced /f/
07:31:30 <augur> we really should say [v] and [f]
07:31:44 <augur> since /v/ and /f/ are abstract language dependent object
07:31:48 <madbr> well, by that I mean usually they have /b,f,v,w/ since they're romance-derived
07:32:05 <Oranjer> although, I never did learn that IPI thingie majiger
07:32:19 <Oranjer> is there a video tutorial? :O
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07:32:45 <Oranjer> it sucks going through wikipedia, and not knowing how to pronounce those words :(
07:32:51 <madbr> trying to find one that's not english based
07:33:12 <Oranjer> you're looking for tutorials?
07:34:09 <Oranjer> of course, augur, I should probably have clarified before
07:35:06 <Oranjer> it wasn't really efficiency in languages that concerned me, if it was the effectiveness--as in, how effective would (could!) a natural language be when faced with new, unfamiliar phenomena?
07:35:38 <Oranjer> I'm saying that there exists the possibility that a certain artificial language could be created to maximize creativity
07:36:22 <madbr> well, ipa is mostly... hmmm...
07:36:35 <madbr> /a e i o u/ are like spanish vowels
07:37:28 <madbr> /b d f h k l m n p s t v w z/ are pretty much the sounds you expect
07:37:53 <Oranjer> I expect where? what do you mean? what's the context?!?!
07:39:30 <madbr> /g/ is always hard, /j/ is actually "y" (like in german), /q/ is arabic "q", /r/ is rolled like in spanish, /x/ is spanish "j", /y/ is german "ü", /c/ is hungarian "ty"
07:39:56 <madbr> oranjer: that's international phonetic alphabet
07:41:29 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language
07:41:37 <Oranjer> (I love examining that language)
07:42:09 <madbr> wow that is hard to pronounce
07:42:20 <Oranjer> how does one pronounce it?
07:42:44 <madbr> that sort of rr thing? dunno
07:43:13 <Oranjer> how do you pronounce [ɺ͡ɺ̼], augur
07:43:48 <madbr> sounds like rl*tongue hits the bottom of the mouth*
07:44:00 <Oranjer> daaaaamn, I feel like an idiot now
07:45:05 <Oranjer> where did you get that information, madbr?
07:45:14 <Oranjer> can you read that notation?
07:46:09 <augur> yes thats probably the crazy sound that everett talks about
07:46:45 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language, you saw that, right?
07:47:13 <madbr> everett is an anthropologist that worked with pirahã
07:47:17 <augur> im not sure exactly how to pronounce it; im not good with lateral taps
07:47:30 <augur> but its presumably roughly like a japanese "r"
07:47:37 <madbr> Some people say he was not a praticularly good anthropologist
07:47:56 <augur> with the first part with the tongue touching the top lip instead of the alveolar ridge
07:47:59 <madbr> augur: the description says the second part is linguolabial :O
07:48:11 <augur> oh was it the first part?
07:48:29 <Oranjer> description, madbr? where?
07:48:51 <augur> it probably sounds a LOT like the "dle" in "cuddle
07:48:58 <madbr> """[ɺ͡ɺ̼] is a lateral alveolar-linguolabial double flap that has only been reported for this language, where the tongue strikes the upper gum ridge and then strikes the lower lip. However, it is only used in certain special types of speech performances, and so might not be considered a normal speech sound.""
07:50:50 <Oranjer> I dunno, if it conveys info, is it not a "speech sound"?
07:51:40 <madbr> well, this says that it's basically a weird version of /g~n/
07:52:30 <madbr> and basically a substitute where the guy would say /g/ (or its allophone [n]) normally
07:52:44 <augur> the fact that its the ONLY language with it as a speech sound is ... odd
07:53:05 <augur> we know that sign languages have phonology of signs
07:53:19 <augur> so the clear line between what is and isnt a speech sound is complicated
07:53:25 <augur> abstract phonology
07:53:41 <madbr> well, the rr sound is too slow to really work in normal speech in pirahã
07:53:53 <augur> their "phonemes" are "articulatory" aspects of signs
07:54:18 <augur> hand position, shape, speed, etc.
07:54:32 <madbr> i think it mostly means our language part of the brain normally deals with N possibilities
07:54:52 <madbr> ie meaning is decoded into a sequence where each part can be one of N
07:55:05 <augur> some people believe that theres a well defined space of phonetic/phonological phenomena
07:55:17 <augur> and the rest is sort of bootstrapped into language
07:55:25 <augur> i think phonology is boring and so i dont give a shit
07:55:56 <augur> it doesnt seem to be NECESSARY
07:56:04 <madbr> augur: more into grammar? semantics? :)
07:56:11 <augur> syntax and semantics, yep.
07:56:24 <Oranjer> sorry about confusing the defo's of those two before
07:56:28 <augur> if we were in ##compling seppbot would have said by now
07:56:32 <augur> "Chomsky is cunnilingual!"
07:56:46 <augur> seppbot isnt there
07:56:58 <augur> noones there except rziai
07:57:24 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you have to say about linguistics?
07:57:25 <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
07:57:53 <Asztal> it even has matched parentheses
07:58:45 <madbr> augur: eh, yeah, phonetics are definitely less vast than those fields
07:58:56 <augur> it has matched parens because it took it from a quote it has stored.
07:59:08 <augur> madbr: its not that phonetics and phonology are less vast
07:59:22 <augur> two paraphrase richard larson
07:59:30 <augur> if it turns out that they're right, so what?
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08:00:16 <Oranjer> fungot, your thoughts on phonology?
08:00:18 <fungot> Oranjer: i've removed the note. --user:jayhenryjayhenry 17:38, 15 march 2007 ( utc)'" i think it would be nice if all the matter in the work of her party of government, and the now illegal immigrants are considered a burden upon the welfare state. implementing socialism on a national scale does not advance socialisms goals fnord, because of his bias, his view is very helpful in understanding some of what has been reported on th
08:00:41 <madbr> true, doesn't have too many deep psychological impacts
08:00:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube
08:00:53 <augur> it doesnt have ANY psychological impacts
08:00:58 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
08:01:04 <fungot> Oranjer: st john is a mangled corpse; i alone know why, and such words as sabaoth, metraton on agla fnord,
08:01:54 <madbr> augur: on the other hand it's much easier to verify, I guess
08:02:54 <madbr> like, if you analyze a language, eventually you get a phonology with N phonemes
08:02:57 <augur> im not interested in phonology.
08:03:42 <augur> mythemes, thats not even linguistics
08:03:49 <augur> graphemes thats only marginally linguistic
08:03:50 <madbr> graphemes is the written version of phonemes
08:04:24 <madbr> they're not very deep either
08:04:55 <Oranjer> well, depth is largely dependent more on how time we've spent on them, eh?
08:05:01 <madbr> dunno, i have a hard time with semantics
08:06:13 <madbr> i can deal with the slighty fuzzy logic of, say, music theory or even phonetics, but semantics are on a whole other scale :D
08:07:36 <Oranjer> the theory that creativity comes from the juxtaposition of seeing one thing in regards to two separate systems
08:07:47 <madbr> as for grammar... well, let's say that having two different classes about it with two completely different analysis of french one semester was a tad scary :)
08:08:34 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Creation
08:08:39 <madbr> one was a syntax class with some kinda generativist-derived stuff
08:09:29 <madbr> the other had a completely different system that the teacher referred to as "semantic grammar" I think
08:09:36 <Oranjer> so, the teacher taught both in the same class, at the same time? what?
08:09:44 <madbr> no, two different teachers
08:10:04 <Oranjer> my guess would have been a better class, me thinks
08:10:05 <madbr> different teaching approaches and stuff
08:11:00 <madbr> the second one obviously liked verbose stuff, including stuff that would be much better expressed as a diagram
08:11:21 <Oranjer> I would love a teacher that taught soley with dynamic diagrams
08:11:38 <Oranjer> diagrammatic reasoning!!! yaaaaay!
08:11:44 <madbr> first one was, well, turn a sentence into a tree
08:11:56 <madbr> make sure you do it right
08:12:09 <augur> semantic grammar :|
08:12:13 <augur> he better not have used that term :|
08:12:36 <Oranjer> or is vclops always angry?
08:12:47 <augur> well, theres a computational thing called that
08:12:50 <ehird> `addquote <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
08:12:50 <fungot> ehird: and up the hill.
08:12:53 <HackEgo> 95|<fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
08:13:02 <augur> but its pretty un-used afaik
08:13:07 <augur> and not well documented
08:13:27 <Oranjer> ehird, why document the random gibberings of an old bot?
08:13:52 <ehird> not significantly worse than the other 94 quotes
08:14:00 <madbr> augur: it had concepts like nominal substantives and determniation relationships
08:14:10 <augur> im not sure that those mean :D
08:14:20 <madbr> nominal substantives = nouns
08:14:58 <Oranjer> are there other kinds of substantives?
08:14:59 <madbr> determination relationships = the relationship between nouns, articles, adjectives, nominal complements...
08:15:14 <madbr> yes, adjectival substantives
08:15:31 <Oranjer> what is a substantive, anyway? the word itself?
08:15:42 <madbr> it's an old latin term for noun I think
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08:16:11 <madbr> he also had a distinction between verbal substantive and verbal adjective
08:16:43 <madbr> oh yeah, it was nominal adjective for adjectives, not the other thing I said
08:16:55 <augur> sounds pretty useless man
08:17:11 <FireFly> Hm, sounds like I jumped into some interesting conversation
08:17:16 <madbr> oranjer: well, the distinction is that the substantive was the sentence's topic but the adjective wasn't
08:17:41 <Oranjer> so, subjects and compliments and adjuncts?
08:18:06 <madbr> augur: well, the determination relationship stuff worked but some other stuff was a bit crazy
08:18:25 <augur> the whole thing just seems stupid
08:18:32 <augur> "nominal substantive"
08:18:35 <augur> just uckin say noun
08:18:58 <augur> when you go through the trouble of obfuscating well established terms for no good reason, its usually because youre full of shit
08:19:19 <Oranjer> I always found using new names, names that, perhaps, reveal alternatives within it, are useful
08:19:33 <Oranjer> like, a noun is a noun, but when you define it as a "nominal substantive"
08:19:45 <Oranjer> you leave the door open for other types of "substantives"
08:19:55 <Oranjer> and other things described as "nominal"
08:21:13 <Oranjer> no thoughts on that? sorry, mates
08:21:29 <madbr> it had [nominal,verbal,pronominal,participle,modal,another one i can't remember] x [substantive,adjective]
08:21:35 <augur> theyre aled words.
08:22:02 <augur> calling something a substantive only makes sense if substantive actually means something
08:22:25 <Oranjer> you define what "substantive" means by those things you use that word to describe, eh?
08:22:46 <madbr> augur: yeah, in that particular case it was something like "the word has a base meaning instead of just deriving another word's meaning"
08:23:02 <augur> theres a word for that already too.
08:23:03 <Oranjer> augur, do you...actually create anything?
08:23:09 <augur> its called a root.
08:23:12 <augur> yes, oranjer, i do.
08:23:32 <madbr> augur: I said it the wrong way around
08:23:57 <madbr> "red" is a root but in that particular system it would be an "adjective", not "substantive"
08:25:10 <madbr> I think the distinction was that a "substantive" referred to at least a base set of concepts, while an "adjective" doesn't have a base set and is more subtractive in nature
08:26:40 <madbr> anyways, the generativist "let's make trees" class was easier :D
08:26:45 <Oranjer> also, madbr, what if we added "quasimodal" to that permutation you described earlier?
08:26:57 <madbr> what would that be
08:27:17 <Oranjer> I know what quasimodal means, of course
08:27:52 <ehird> i love hci let's talk about some more hci also operating systems since i like operating systems well not current operating systems but
08:27:57 <madbr> i think the real problem was something more like "its the teacher's own system" or something like that
08:27:59 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28computer_interface%29#Quasimodes
08:28:06 <ehird> i should probably eat to sustain me until i decide i should bed myself
08:28:18 <Oranjer> ewww ehird's gonna bed himself
08:28:42 <ehird> anyway the problem with quasimodes is hand fatigue.
08:28:43 <augur> it sounds like you were doing morphology
08:28:59 <Oranjer> yeah, that's a problem, ehird
08:29:18 <ehird> in fact, modifier keys are pretty much broken
08:29:23 <Oranjer> I thought of a solution, though
08:29:31 <augur> ehird, i like modifier keys :|
08:29:32 <ehird> Ctrl+x isn't more than a millisecond faster than Ctrl, x
08:29:42 <ehird> and your hand will like you for more years with the latter
08:29:43 <Oranjer> hah, augur, we agree on something!
08:29:48 <ehird> not the concept of modifier keys, they are fine
08:29:50 <ehird> i mean the way you execute it
08:29:55 <ehird> by holding it down and hitting another key
08:29:58 <ehird> that's broken, ergonomically
08:30:03 <augur> except ehird, what about sequences?
08:30:06 <Oranjer> I found a possible solution
08:30:15 <ehird> it may be obvious, but we need to think of something just as good that doesn't wreck our hands
08:30:20 <augur> also, how is it ergonomically broken
08:30:22 <Oranjer> meh, sequences might introduce modal errors
08:30:24 <augur> use the right command key, fool.
08:30:27 <ehird> i'd explain, but i cba to explain
08:30:39 <ehird> anyway sequences are easy
08:30:47 <augur> thats why theres two sets
08:30:48 <ehird> ctrl, alt, x is perfectly unambiguous
08:31:00 <ehird> you're showing your lack of ergonomic knowledge
08:31:03 <augur> thank you for agreeing that you're wrong
08:31:11 <ehird> admittedly i don't have much, but more than you
08:31:14 <Oranjer> sequences would only work if it is completely unambiguous where you are in the sequence
08:31:21 <augur> also, ive been using a computer longer than you and ive never had issues with the ergonomics of command keys
08:31:27 <augur> ive never heard anyone else complain
08:31:30 <augur> you're full of shit
08:31:35 <augur> but then, you're only 14
08:31:40 <augur> its to be expected!
08:31:43 <ehird> i'm sorry augur, can i repeat your argument
08:31:47 <Oranjer> now now, calling names and yelling "Ignorant fool! your children will be cursed with Gay!" at each other!
08:32:01 <Oranjer> *is no way to have an argument!
08:32:02 <augur> oranjer, you're new to #esoteric
08:32:05 <ehird> "I have personally used computers for some more years than you, and I have not yet had hand problems, therefore all of currently-accepted ergonomics is wrong"
08:32:17 <augur> this is how we do things here in esoland
08:32:35 <augur> ehird and i are actually boyfriends, he's sitting a few feet from me.
08:32:40 <augur> its all part of the fun of being on irc
08:32:41 <ehird> "get the fuck out, shut the fuck up, die in a fire, kay thanks bye"; it's basically my way of saying QED
08:32:44 <ehird> also, augur is a liar.
08:32:45 <madbr> well, alt,f4 is a bit more dangerous than alt+f4 :D
08:32:57 <augur> i am but what does he know?
08:33:11 <ehird> long-term what we need is direct-brain interfaces — erm, backtrack —
08:33:14 <Oranjer> are we gonna start suggesting solutions?
08:33:17 <ehird> long-term what we need is to get rid of input and output devices
08:33:21 <ehird> and have them be the same thing
08:33:30 <ehird> but unless you want to give up on haptic feedback, at the moment, you can't do that
08:33:35 <augur> i agree tho that command keys could probably be done like that ehird.
08:33:41 <madbr> interface problems? hmmm
08:33:41 <ehird> we have to make do with the reality of i/o separation
08:33:49 <ehird> augur: in fact you can enable stickykeys in windows to get this
08:33:54 <ehird> the founder of emacswiki does it
08:33:59 <ehird> Oranjer: what was that dammit yes to?
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08:34:22 <Oranjer> it just seems that we're doing this wrongly
08:34:24 <augur> sticky keys never seemed to work right for me
08:34:31 <augur> i was on ME when i tried it
08:34:34 <ehird> yeah, well, that's windowsfor you
08:34:42 <ehird> fuck this keyboard
08:35:03 <madbr> keyboards are fast but they require memorizing
08:35:09 <ehird> madbr: ah, but not inherently
08:35:15 <Oranjer> changed to what it would actually do when pressed
08:35:18 <madbr> mouses are slow but they don't require as much memorization
08:35:21 <ehird> but not a command-based (or "linguistic") interface
08:35:23 <ehird> that's less efficient, though
08:35:28 <ehird> stop generalisiing
08:35:33 <ehird> what you are saying is keybinding vs WIMP
08:35:35 <ehird> not keyboard vs mouse
08:35:39 <ehird> neither r are desirable
08:35:43 <ehird> *drop that whole r word
08:35:49 <Oranjer> like, when I press "control", the "X" key changes to display "cut"
08:35:54 <augur> mouses are known to be in no way significantly faster overall. research has already established this.
08:35:56 <madbr> dunno, I like keyboards
08:35:59 <ehird> Oranjer: touch-type, man
08:36:05 <ehird> madbr: keyboard != keybinding
08:36:11 <augur> significantly slower**
08:36:19 <FireFly> [09:35:15] <Oranjer> changed to what it would actually do when pressed
08:36:23 <madbr> well, how are you going to use a keyboard without keybinding?
08:36:26 <ehird> augur: true but also untrue
08:36:27 <FireFly> A bit too expensive for me
08:36:28 <augur> infact they're faster over all. they just /seem/ slower because the cognitive load is lower.
08:36:38 <augur> only your cock will shut me up
08:36:45 <ehird> what you are saying is
08:36:48 <augur> btw, have you seen moon?
08:36:55 <ehird> "WIMP-style mouse interfaces" are faster than "keybindings to WIMP menu items"
08:37:00 <Oranjer> I will now go outside and look at it
08:37:08 <ehird> but overall, a keyboard can be faster FOR THE THINGS IT EXCELS at, if given a system designed for it:
08:37:12 <ehird> a linguistic, or command interface
08:37:13 <Oranjer> they allow for both beginners and experts!
08:37:20 <ehird> by automating tasks, it can be significantly faster than a mouse
08:37:22 <ehird> what you say is true
08:37:31 <ehird> it is useless for designing future UIs
08:37:36 <ehird> and misleading to say the least
08:37:51 <augur> moon is an ... interesting movie
08:38:00 <augur> ehird, yes, well ofcourse
08:38:01 <Oranjer> I still wanna see the moon, though
08:38:09 <madbr> well, what magic solution are you going to come up to deal with the fact that you need a way to access each command, eh?
08:38:17 <augur> its faster for a keyboard interface
08:38:24 <augur> its all in context
08:38:44 <augur> tho arguably a sufficiently complex CLI will probably still be slower for the same tasks
08:38:55 <ehird> augur: are you suggesting that a fully expressive, well-designed command/linguistic interface (therefore supporting automation) would be slower than slogging through repetitive grunt-and-clicks?
08:39:04 <augur> tho i suppose it would depend on the full keyboard arrangement you could construct
08:39:13 <ehird> because, really, the only way i can make that true in my head is by assuming either a really retarded command/linguistic interface or a magical mouse (HEY APPLE)
08:39:17 <ehird> i don't mean like unix cli
08:39:29 <ehird> text is limited, and the unix cli syntax is untenable for really quick activation
08:39:39 <augur> well everyone i know who argues about this shit is CLI-whoring
08:39:42 <ehird> i'm thinking of a completion system, where you can have keybindings and then type on to disambiguate
08:39:49 <ehird> with rich objects that know what they can do
08:39:52 <ehird> and can order by the most common item
08:40:06 <ehird> that's a linguistic interface, not a dumb text-command-to-text-output-with-text-streams-oh-joy unix crapfest
08:40:13 <Oranjer> what's CLI? also, it's the wrong time to see the moon here
08:40:15 <augur> so who wants to learn about semantics? :X
08:40:20 <augur> command-line interface
08:40:22 <ehird> Oranjer: command-line interface
08:40:26 <augur> oranjer, not THE moon
08:40:34 <ehird> augur: that thing you said that would be useful for a quicksilver thing, you should talk to me about that sometime; i'd actually listen for once
08:40:36 <Oranjer> but I wanted to see the moon anyway
08:40:54 <ehird> augur: eh you mentioned it
08:40:57 <augur> the agent program?
08:41:17 <augur> i was actually about to ask you if you wanted to work on something like that but decided you would probably not want to
08:41:49 <ehird> i think for it to know the inner workings of programs would probably require my OSs detached objects, instead of programs, so I'm totally for co-opting that
08:41:52 <ehird> of course, that's rather long-term...
08:42:02 <ehird> working on it for an existing OS could be fun though.
08:42:17 <augur> well, the hooks into the OS would be something like what you can do with QS and automator right now
08:42:22 <ehird> i don't think any of them provide the sort of toes-curled-up-in-soil deep inspection that'd be needed
08:42:27 <augur> the scripting hooks that already exist
08:42:31 <ehird> augur: right, but they don't go very deep, really
08:42:45 <ehird> I mean, I can't accomplish much of what i want to do with quicksilver at all
08:42:46 <augur> but we'll do what we can with what we've got
08:42:53 <augur> what do you want to do
08:43:01 <madbr> what are you even talking about
08:43:03 <ehird> co-opt the ideas into my OS, naturally.
08:43:20 <Oranjer> that's what they're talking about, madbr
08:43:22 <ehird> it's, amusingly, almost perfectly designed for the kind of hooks that'd be required
08:43:24 <augur> in what sense, ehird
08:43:41 <ehird> take your shit and apply it to my OS interface research
08:43:47 <ehird> not... your literal shit
08:44:05 <ehird> in fact, the focus on objects and the abolishment of programs, I think, is helpful
08:44:07 <augur> so have an OS that is, from the core up, built with that sort of exposure in mind
08:44:10 <ehird> nobody thinks in programs or talks about progarms
08:44:22 <ehird> they think about things, combining things, making them act with other things
08:44:26 <madbr> abolishment of programs?
08:44:28 <augur> so you want to do data-oriented OS design
08:44:32 <augur> rather than program-oriented?
08:44:35 <ehird> Oranjer: when on a computer, yes, because it's co-opted you to its evil
08:44:37 <Oranjer> YES abolishment of programs!
08:44:51 <Oranjer> wait, Jef Raskin made a good article on this, madbr
08:44:51 <augur> where data is primary, and you just have external services that hook into it on the fly and do whatever you need to do
08:44:58 <ehird> Rich, smart data with multiple interfaces! Viva la somethingution.
08:45:03 <ehird> augur: Yes yes yes yes yes
08:45:07 <madbr> abolishment of programs sounds like a rather radical agenda
08:45:13 <augur> ive been looking for someone to work with on this kind of thing for like
08:45:14 <ehird> madbr: My OS is rather radical...
08:45:28 <ehird> madbr: For a start it also does away with C!
08:45:30 <Oranjer> hey, augur, we all agree programs are bad
08:45:41 <Oranjer> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.06/1.6_guis.html
08:45:44 <augur> shut up oranjer the grown ups are talking
08:46:03 <madbr> well, the other kind of separation of code I know of is plug-ins
08:46:16 <augur> so ehird, i want to do this
08:46:37 <ehird> madbr: stop thinking in code
08:46:40 <ehird> think about the data, the documents
08:46:46 <ehird> and them knowing the code
08:46:50 <ehird> haha i'm lolling at that jef raskin article
08:46:59 <ehird> "you know that mac thing i designed? desktop icons pointy clicky menus?"
08:47:00 <madbr> ok, suppose I have a song
08:47:01 <augur> ehird, i think that like
08:47:08 <ehird> madbr: most vague statement ever
08:47:16 <augur> haskell-like data orientation is kind of the programming equivalent of this idea
08:47:26 <ehird> madbr: shush the grownups are talking
08:47:31 <ehird> EVERYTHING WILL BECOME CLEAR!
08:47:36 <augur> and that might be a good programming environment for that sort of task too
08:47:44 <ehird> augur: i'm of a slightly more object-oriented persuation
08:47:54 <ehird> the original smalltalk is still, in my opinion, unsurpassed as an OS.
08:48:13 <augur> i would like to see something thats smalltalky
08:48:15 <augur> but at the same time
08:48:22 <augur> has the symmetry of data-oriented programming
08:48:30 <ehird> i think the project demands a new language anyway
08:48:38 <ehird> it's a clean slate, and it's very different to the usual crop
08:48:46 <ehird> and there'll be scarce compatibility anyway
08:48:55 <ehird> so why not make something tailored
08:49:03 <augur> we can always compile to C
08:49:08 <ehird> non nonono nonononono
08:49:19 <ehird> i have very strong opinions on this and lots of thought processes :P
08:49:26 <augur> we could compile to zimbu!
08:49:33 <ehird> let's compile ... to lojban
08:49:39 <ehird> duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
08:49:45 <ehird> whooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaa
08:50:04 <ehird> http://www.zimbu.org/
08:50:05 <ehird> what the hell is this shit
08:50:07 <augur> but then all the lojbanists will be perfectly suited to run it
08:50:12 <augur> its horrible is what it is ehird
08:50:14 <ehird> an interpreted language isn't suitable to write a text editor? lol
08:50:18 <ehird> what a bunch of bullshit
08:51:37 <ehird> i'd love to design the hardware from scratch too to remove all the bloat and crap and bullshit that i'll have to deal with on the x86, but that's just not practical
08:52:06 <ehird> hardware design is really not my thing
08:52:11 <madbr> evict all the integers and make it floating point-based
08:52:15 <ehird> and it raises the barrier to entry oh so much
08:52:23 <madbr> then make it compile to FPU stack code
08:52:30 <ehird> instead of downloading some free software and booting to it, you have to buy some $500 pile of hardware and flash it all
08:53:04 <madbr> beagle board could be a choice no?
08:55:02 <madbr> it's a world of vlsi integration and systems on a chip
08:55:46 <Oranjer> also, ehird, can't you eventually replace pie menus with eye movement during a quasimode?
08:56:14 <madbr> but yeah you could evict integers from your design... floating point is longer to calculate with but these days chips have so many transistors that it's not the bottleneck anymore
08:56:18 <ehird> controlling eye movement isn't very natural or easy
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08:57:25 <madbr> that's why some languages only have floating point (lua, javascript...)
08:58:08 <ehird> floating point is shit
08:58:18 <ehird> it's not useful for aaaaaaaaaanythign
08:58:46 <madbr> floating point is THE shit
08:59:24 <Oranjer> what I've seen of it is a gain in effectiveness and a loss in efficiency
09:00:23 <madbr> well, sound processing switched to floating point because sound processing uses lots of multiplications, and on the original pentium floating point multiplication was afaik faster than integer multiplication even
09:01:29 <madbr> a couple of old plugin interfaces started using float and it stuck
09:02:16 <madbr> but it's extremely useful because you don't have to build headroom into anything anymore
09:02:57 <Oranjer> Fungot, what do you think?
09:03:08 <fungot> Oranjer: you recall that pickman's fnord was faces. i don't wish to offend you, and haue longe fnord upon ye way of get'g backe after ye laste. i laste night fnord on ye n. side of olney's court. distance from boston stone fnord. fnord fnord and from the titanic flat roof, with its curious illustrations by the brothers de fnord, composed in fnord but after a hypodermic injection it became more regular.
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09:03:56 <Oranjer> geez you bot that's a lot of fnords what are you saying this is supposed to be depressing? geez
09:05:12 <madbr> english has sufficient mechanisms to deal with different degrees of evidentiality
09:05:29 <Oranjer> bah! they're hardly mandatory
09:06:06 <madbr> that's because you don't always need to express evidentiality
09:06:19 <madbr> sometimes it's totally besides point
09:06:21 <Oranjer> I would say that you would, to avoid conflict
09:06:30 <Oranjer> yeah, yeah, artistic license
09:06:52 <madbr> well, why do you think people say "afaik" and "i think" all the time? :D
09:07:14 <madbr> there was even someone lamenting the use of that kind of stuff by politicians
09:07:19 <Oranjer> but that's only to express explicit uncertainty
09:07:35 <Oranjer> make all legal documents in e-prime!
09:07:55 <Oranjer> and make politicians use it! yaaaay!
09:08:51 <madbr> that's because less uncertainty is the default
09:09:36 <Oranjer> I still say I've seen it prevent apparent conflicts
09:09:46 <madbr> plus, you're missing how useful and expressive "to be" is in english
09:10:03 <Oranjer> I only mean when we use it as a stative
09:10:25 <ehird> to be or not to be
09:10:27 <ehird> how do you say that in e-prime
09:10:37 <Oranjer> as I said before, artistic license
09:10:49 <Oranjer> also, other e-prime people have already done that
09:11:07 <Oranjer> but then, they merely removed the use of "to be"
09:11:19 <madbr> well, the grass is green
09:11:21 <Oranjer> I prefer focusing on removing statives
09:11:40 <Oranjer> oh? what does this green grass do? where'd you find it?
09:12:10 <madbr> it doesn't do anything
09:12:25 <Oranjer> "God exists!" "God doesn't exist!" *FIGHT* vs. "God exists, and I think that because..." "Well, I disagree on..." *NOT FIGHT*
09:12:46 <madbr> ....................................................................no
09:13:49 <madbr> like, how else would you express something like that
09:14:08 <Oranjer> how else would I express what?
09:14:10 <madbr> the grass is green
09:14:26 <Oranjer> quite simply, what information does that contain?
09:14:35 <madbr> the color of the grass
09:14:43 <Oranjer> exactly--the color according to who?
09:14:57 <Oranjer> "The grass appears green to me"
09:15:06 <augur> oh god are you kids talking about e-prime
09:15:23 <madbr> oranjer: there's no point to that
09:15:25 <augur> the whole purpose of eprime is noble, but misguided
09:15:37 <augur> also, removing "be" is a failure to achieve this goal.
09:15:45 <Oranjer> augur! I just talked about that!
09:15:53 <Oranjer> I only wish to remove stative verbs
09:15:54 <madbr> oranjer: plus you still have an attribute, except it's implicit
09:16:14 <augur> stative verbs arent the issue either
09:16:28 <Oranjer> what would you define the issue as, then, augur?
09:16:39 <Oranjer> ambiguity itself, I would guess?
09:16:39 <madbr> like, you could wrap any sentence that way
09:16:55 <Oranjer> true, madbr, but I would hardly call that creative
09:17:06 <augur> the fact that languages as a whole permit things like indicative mood, realis modality, and non-evidentiality
09:17:10 <madbr> "bob eats pork" -> "bob appears eating pork to me"
09:17:17 <augur> you could always just promote using quechua.
09:17:38 <Oranjer> I find "bob eats pork" none-too-distasteful
09:18:03 <augur> quechua has evidentiality
09:18:07 <madbr> like, why is that ok but "the grass is green" not
09:18:11 <augur> mandatory evidentiality, if i recall correctly
09:18:24 <Oranjer> yeah, augur, I want mandatory evidentiality
09:18:38 <augur> it'll vanish in time due to natural changes in the language.
09:19:07 <Oranjer> I would hardly say such vanishing would help the sciences and arts
09:19:12 <augur> USING the RIGHT evidentiality marker is a choice people make
09:19:41 <augur> sometimes its necessary to say things are just this way, that its fact
09:19:50 <augur> ie in the sciences, vs. religion
09:20:03 <augur> and sometimes its necessary to lie
09:20:16 <augur> language is the way it is
09:20:32 <augur> trying to make a particular language better is a failure of understanding of what language does in the first place
09:21:05 <Oranjer> hahahahahahahHAhaahaahAHAHahAHAhA
09:21:32 <augur> and a failure to understand how languages work in reality
09:21:34 <Oranjer> It seems to me augur you just attempted to use the argument of the masses on me
09:22:03 <augur> the argument of the masses?
09:22:09 <madbr> oranjer: you just don't get how efficient a language like english is
09:22:30 <madbr> and how hard it is to beat something like english at being expressive
09:22:34 <Oranjer> effectiveness in dealing with the unknown
09:22:44 <augur> language isnt designed to deal with the unknown
09:22:49 <augur> and e-prime isnt either
09:22:56 <augur> (by language, i mean the human language faculty)
09:23:24 <Oranjer> then we should create a means of communication that expressly takes the unknown into consideration! yaaaaaaaay!
09:23:30 <madbr> oranjer: then perhaps you could try your hand at adding evidentiality to english
09:23:44 <augur> to do that you'd need to modify the brain.
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09:24:14 <augur> if your brain does not already incorporate a mechanisms for doing this sort of thing, other than language, you cant do it
09:24:22 <augur> and language is the only thing anyone knows of that does this
09:24:30 <augur> if something else existed, we'd be using it already
09:24:58 <madbr> well, language does suffer from bandwidth limitations
09:25:17 <augur> i can talk faster than i can type.
09:25:24 <augur> on the other hand, i can edit what i type before i talk
09:25:29 <augur> before i send* rather
09:25:33 <madbr> about 50 bits per second I think
09:25:54 <augur> depends on what you mean by that
09:26:07 <madbr> that's how much bandwidth I think language tends to have
09:26:31 <madbr> probably up to 100 bits if you go really fast but I mean it as an order of magnitude
09:26:41 <augur> probably less, actually
09:27:08 <ehird> My giraffe fucked the horse's bright pink wound scabbing up with green oil.
09:27:10 <augur> the way languages are structured, the phonological information is the important stuff
09:27:12 <ehird> how many bits is thaat?
09:27:15 <augur> and phonologies are entirely language internal
09:27:22 <madbr> well, if you condider that a normal syllable rate for something like english or french is something like 6 syllables / second
09:27:24 <ehird> (also, wow that sentence is disturbing)
09:27:27 <ehird> i never even... notcied
09:27:40 <augur> so you only have to count the phonological content being shuttled around
09:27:47 <augur> which might be less than 50 bits per second
09:27:53 <madbr> and from the size of the phonetic inventories of such languages you get something like 8 bits/syllable
09:28:02 <Oranjer> ehird, that reminds me of a scene in David Cronenberg's "Crash"
09:28:05 <augur> you get more than 8 bits per syllable
09:28:09 <ehird> BUT HOW MANY BITS IS IT
09:28:49 <madbr> augur: well, for a CVC syllable, sure
09:28:49 <augur> english has around 40 sounds, with syllables upwards of 5 sounds each
09:28:49 <augur> but again this depends on how you count your dat
09:28:51 <Oranjer> why can't the short version of "vowel" itself be a vowel? like, a?
09:28:51 <madbr> but more complex syllables have a speed hit
09:29:07 <madbr> it's something like 1.5x slower for CVC vs CV in French
09:29:24 <madbr> english is timed differently but it probably comes down to something similar
09:29:26 <Oranjer> anyway, I must go to sleep now
09:29:38 <augur> you'd have to do a proper study dude
09:29:40 <Oranjer> thanks for the...topic talking? :O
09:29:41 <augur> and i dont have one
09:29:52 <madbr> well, french is a bit easier to count
09:29:58 <Oranjer> :( good night! (night for me) )
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09:30:09 <madbr> ~20 consonants, ~16 vowels
09:30:48 <madbr> of course the frequencies are skewed, but if you compute the bit contents of skewed inventories they don't actually lose much information
09:31:28 <madbr> so that means you get around a byte of info per syllable, give or take 2 bits probably
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09:32:13 <madbr> although something else I've read talked about 1 bit per letter
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11:50:07 <ehird> using an operating system through a text-to-speech thingy is hard
11:50:07 <ehird> for blinders people
11:55:29 <ehird> vertica vertica vertical line
11:59:44 <ehird> oklopol: say something
12:00:27 <oklopol> should i!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:00:44 <ehird> colloquy fails beautifully at telling the speech user about shit that happens!
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12:16:59 <ehird> it'd be interesting to be blind
12:17:06 <ehird> but from the computer aspect
12:17:56 <oerjan> clearly SCIENCE requires you to stab out your eyes
12:19:52 <oklopol> lament: you look pretty today
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12:22:25 <ehird> oklopol: blindfold yourself and enable all the speech and keyboard control things
12:22:57 <oerjan> _maybe_ in the other order might be preferred
12:24:32 <ehird> if i was a blind dude i'd have all sorts of awesome shorthand just for representing everything
12:25:03 <ehird> "(spoken very quickly)blab esoteric oklopol"
12:25:06 <ehird> key to say "tell me tell me"
12:25:16 <ehird> "lament: you look pretty today. 1 minute ago."
12:25:22 <ehird> "switch to window"
12:25:29 <ehird> mainly the blab thing
12:25:32 <ehird> it'd be like, sitting there
12:25:47 <ehird> blab esoteric oklopol mail inbox compile done
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13:45:18 <ehird> nobody in particular
13:46:04 <ehird> applescript://com.apple.scripteditor?action=new&script=say%20%22hi%22
13:46:08 <ehird> i swear this actually works
13:48:17 <ehird> there seems to be no way to get it to run on click though :P
13:48:49 <ais523> I don't think this computer understands that protocol
13:50:07 <ehird> ais523: i'm shocked
13:51:39 <ehird> ais523: Clearly you must be running some weird-ass OS, like, like, HURD!
13:52:08 <ehird> (It is 2013. Apple announce their porting of OS X to a modified HURD kernel) Oh god I regret everything I have said ever
13:52:17 <ais523> even VxWorks doesn't recognise that protocol
13:52:26 <ais523> so why would you expect less mainstream OSes to?
13:53:37 <ehird> ais523: Not even Emacs supports it!
13:53:48 <ehird> HURD, VxWorks and Emacs: the three main operating systems.
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14:13:54 * ehird does something very stupid
14:16:03 * ehird doesn't actually do it due to stupidity
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15:03:32 <ehird> i need to work on Ponzi Scheme sometime before someone else takes that name :(
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15:35:55 <ehird> sure is slow lately
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16:10:39 <AnMaster> hm how fast does n! grow? Faster than a^n ?
16:16:28 <ais523> that grows about as fast as (n+1)^n
16:16:37 <ais523> just with a horizontal offset
16:16:42 <ais523> so that'll go faster than n! too
16:17:08 <AnMaster> how comes it grows about as fast as (n+1)^n?
16:19:31 * AnMaster just cleaned his keyboard. Eww
16:32:19 <ehird> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271
16:32:43 <ais523> AnMaster: just substitute n-1 for n
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16:46:45 <AnMaster> should still be less than n^n right?
16:47:15 <ais523> that's just multiplying by 2
16:47:35 <ais523> things like adding/subtracting one from n, and multiplying by /any/ constant, don't affect behaviour in the limit
16:50:05 <ehird> thus why i linked it
16:51:04 <fax> so O gives equivalence classes ordered?
16:51:14 <fax> O(n!) < O(n^n)
16:51:28 <fax> can you these O's as numbers
16:51:50 <fizzie> Oh, ehird might be interested to know that YLE (our BBC) had a theremin for the public to play with on their altparty stand.
16:53:17 <fizzie> It was hooked to an oscilloscope, theoretically to make it easier to see amplitudes and frequencies.
16:54:00 <fizzie> Didn't see anyone who could actually play the thing though.
16:54:57 <AnMaster> fax, was that a question or a statement?
16:55:19 <fax> what does that tell us?
16:55:20 <AnMaster> fax, "<fax> can you these O's as numbers" didn't parse here
16:55:51 <AnMaster> or "these" should have been something else
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17:15:24 <ehird> oh god when did uriel become a proggit mod
17:16:03 <Deewiant> Probably just recently, when spez asked for new mods.
17:19:23 <ehird> well, uriel is quite seriously insane...
17:19:28 <ehird> but no, not a big deal
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17:22:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a libertarian free-market capitalist plan 9 highly acidic moron who lives in sweden
17:22:47 <ehird> his website is among the few known to cause actual mental illness merely by reading text
17:23:07 <ehird> cat-v.org may ring a bell.
17:24:44 <ehird> "If elected moderator, I will edit LISP postings by randomly removing left and right parens"
17:24:52 <ehird> now here's a man with initiative!
17:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, hasn't he been in here? Or was that someone else
17:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, someone with a ready-made image for plan9?
17:26:44 <ehird> mycroftiv/nescience.
17:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, his web site design was quite similar iirc
17:26:58 <ehird> nescience/myndzi is different
17:27:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the default werc style (plan 9 style website system used for suckless.org, maintained byy uriel)
17:28:10 <AnMaster> suckless.org looks different though
17:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a nice web site design anyway. And a nice colour scheme
17:28:50 <ehird> yes, suckless use their own style
17:29:12 <ehird> the orange colour is displeasing
17:29:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it differs on sub-pages
17:29:28 <ehird> everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it
17:29:48 <ehird> that's just plan 9's colour scheme, changed sliughtly
17:29:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it <-- yeah that is the so great thing about it
17:29:52 <ehird> 9times uses it unchanged
17:30:02 <ehird> AnMaster: not really, the line length is too long
17:30:15 <AnMaster> ehird, too wide browser window?
17:30:26 <ehird> yep, now every other site has a horizontal scrollbar
17:30:39 <AnMaster> ehird, at least it doesn't try to be *wider* than your browser. Ever
17:30:55 <ehird> my safari window disagrees.
17:31:01 <ehird> i have a horiz. scrollbar on a cat-v page
17:31:02 <AnMaster> if you go smaller than the menu
17:31:10 <ehird> admittedly it contains a large image
17:33:40 <AnMaster> maybe I should join #plan9. Or maybe not
17:35:37 <ehird> they're not the most helpful bunch.
17:41:04 <ehird> hooray for possible progress on my os.
17:42:16 <ehird> augur involvement.
17:42:37 <ehird> not that anything's been done, but a few ideas have been batted and that's better than it's been for, like, monhts
17:42:54 <ehird> [said in T-Rex voice] LINGUISTICS IS STRANGELY APPLICABLE
17:44:31 <ehird> Some interesting stuff for the primary (at least until I think of something better) interaction quantum, the linguistic super-mini-CLI.
17:44:41 <ehird> Which is hard to explain but so trivially easy as to seem boring, hey ho.
17:45:06 <ehird> (A CLI that is both super and mini, that is.)
17:45:19 <ehird> Also it's not really too much like a CLI.
17:46:12 <ehird> Also: Apple are trying to de-emphasise the bezel around the display on the iMac! I predict that eventually, the entire front of the iMac will be a display with rounded corners.
17:46:24 <ehird> That would be some engineering feat, also awesome.
17:46:45 <ehird> (The pixels would go right up to the edge, presumably involving fractions of pixels.)
17:48:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, no border around the screen at all?
17:48:29 <ehird> Obviously the software expects a square display, but you're only losing like a few pixels at the corners that can just be ignored.
17:48:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd be covered with glass like current iMacs, presumably.
17:48:56 <ehird> Because they're ugly, and the iMac has always had rounded corners.
17:49:01 <ehird> I'm just extrapolating from the current design.
17:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, you need a bit of glass on the sides too, could be very thin
17:49:03 <ehird> Plus it'd be purty.
17:49:19 <ehird> The main engineering feat would be the pixels on the corner that get cut off.
17:49:27 <ehird> You'd have to make non-square pixels.
17:49:34 <ehird> Of quite a few variations in shape.
17:49:53 <ehird> The end effect would be sweet, though.
17:50:03 <ehird> Caveat: No place to put camera, microphone, big Apple logo.
17:50:29 <ehird> Well... you could embed the camera and microphone inside the glass somehow, and make them invisible... somehow...
17:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hm using the bottom pixles?
17:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: But that ruins the effect. :P
17:50:51 <ehird> Although it'd be amusing to display a bezel in the showroom... run some demos....
17:50:53 <AnMaster> redeign it so part of it is in front
17:50:59 <ehird> it fades into more desktop
17:51:15 <ehird> The logo thing was facetious; Apple design is obvious enough to not need a logo.
17:51:24 <ehird> But the camera and microphone would present a real problem.
17:51:43 <ehird> (All peanuts compared to the whole myriad-shapes-of-pixels-at-the-corners, of course.)
17:51:45 <AnMaster> ehird, the camera yes. The mic less so
17:52:08 <ehird> The mic is easy enough with some clever tilting of the top or bottom part, I guess.
17:52:14 <ehird> But the camera really needs to be on the front.
17:52:31 * AnMaster invokes treknobabel to make it work
17:53:28 <ehird> It's Treknobabble, then.
17:54:13 <ehird> And a transposed le.
17:54:17 <ehird> Anyway, the camera... hmm...
17:55:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said. Redesign the foot
17:55:27 <AnMaster> so there is part of it near the front
17:55:35 <ehird> It's at the top of the display.
17:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what about some cleaver algorithms to move the thing?
17:56:08 <ehird> You could set up a fancy mirror thing with a camera on the top above the screen, but it'd be non-flat.
17:56:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you know a mic and a speaker can be replaced kind of?
17:57:04 <AnMaster> as in, they work the same basically
17:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, now design pixels that can be used backwards as a camera
17:57:52 <AnMaster> problem solved. When camera is needed, some 32x32 pixles at the top are used
17:57:56 <ehird> One issue with this design is, where the hell do you go from there? The whole thing the user sees in front, with the perfect curve, leading to thin, black glass on the sides, top and bottom, and then anodised aluminium with a few ports in one corner, the name of the computer, and a hole for the power cord. All suspended on a foot made out of the same material on the back that's literally just an elaborate curve, the simplest possible stand, with a hole to
17:57:57 <ehird> power curve through.
17:58:13 <ehird> "Apple releases revolutionary new iMac design; it's exactly the same but .3 inches thinner"
17:58:27 <ehird> now I'll read everything you said while I wrote that
17:58:57 <ehird> Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow.
17:59:03 <ehird> With very cleverly constructed LCDs...
17:59:07 <AnMaster> anyway since by then we will have 1000 dpi, some 60x60 pixles wouldn't be a problem
17:59:11 <ehird> But the quality would be poor if it's even possible.
18:00:17 <AnMaster> "the simplest possible stand, with a hole to
18:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, was something dropped there?
18:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what about my idea about double function pixels?
18:03:02 <ehird> [17:58] ehird: Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow.
18:03:02 <ehird> [17:59] ehird: With very cleverly constructed LCDs...
18:03:05 <ehird> was in response to that.
18:03:10 <ehird> i don't know if it's possible
18:05:02 <ehird> Not happening, not cool, not interesting engineering, not profitable.
18:12:49 <ehird> AnMaster: LITTLE DID YOU KNOW I WORK AT APPLE'S DESIGN DIVISION
18:12:54 <ehird> Thx for the assistance!
18:13:05 <ehird> TIME TO GO COLLECT MY HUGE PILE OF MONEY
18:13:53 <ehird> "I use a filesystem I wrote for MacFUSE for resizing images. If an image is located at /path/to/image.png then I can get a version resized to fit in 1024x768 with /transform/maxwidth-1024-maxheight-768/path/to/image.png. I was going to add other transformations but never got around to it, so all I can do right now is resize, either to fixed sizes or constraints."
18:15:24 <ais523> this is the future of OSes!
18:15:29 <ais523> clearly, you don't run filter programs
18:15:32 <ais523> you just use custom paths
18:15:58 <oklopol> /for/each/i/in/path/to/images/resize/to/x/y
18:15:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Easier to get at from GUI programs.
18:16:14 <oklopol> wait maybe i should've used the i.
18:16:22 <ais523> /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful
18:16:41 <oklopol> anyway you could have a programming language integrated in your file system, reading a path executes a script
18:16:51 <oklopol> would be the natural extension to what you pasted there
18:18:40 <ehird> but how do you nest!!!!!!
18:19:54 <Asztal> with twigs and leaves and things
18:20:38 <ehird> so, who wants to play...
18:20:38 <ehird> THE TINY LINUX KERNEL GAME
18:20:56 <ehird> the game is that you have to make the tiniest linux kernel that'll boot and run on some given hardware usefully. VMs count
18:22:35 <ais523> ehird: how do you define "linux" here?
18:22:56 <ehird> kernel.org, any version! although if it doesn't have enough menuconfig to tinker with it's no fun
18:23:13 <ehird> base system doesn't matter, just steal some shit from debian for the kernel to jump into
18:23:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful <-- eh
18:24:32 <ais523> AnMaster: /dev/env/NETHACKDIR/perm is equivalent to $NETHACKDIR/perm, but works everywhere, not just shells
18:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use a simple busybox
18:25:12 <ehird> kernel size is all that counts
18:25:37 <ehird> if it boots something you can poke around w/ a shell and grep and shit
18:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i think it should be only current kernel tbh
18:25:53 <ehird> since it's more bloaty
18:26:18 <ehird> 8 KiB should be trivial, 4 KiB possible
18:26:21 <ehird> anything below, more difficult
18:26:23 <AnMaster> 2.4 is still maintained though
18:26:28 <ehird> sub 2 KiB, haaaaaaard
18:26:30 <ehird> AnMaster: but less bloaty.
18:27:05 <AnMaster> about 2 MB is what I managed for x86_64 for something that is usable for me on my main desktop
18:27:34 <Deewiant> Mine is 2.6 MB without module support
18:27:35 <ehird> someone posted on reddit that he uses a ~8 KiB kernel
18:27:39 <ehird> because shrinking it is fun
18:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, lzma compression I guess?
18:27:49 <ehird> anyway, that's for a desktop
18:28:00 <ehird> so since we're just doing shells and grepping and all that regular shit
18:28:03 <Deewiant> Did he say how large his modules are?
18:28:21 <AnMaster> ehird, then most was in modules I assume
18:28:25 <ehird> my strategy would be no modules, simplest fs possible
18:28:46 <Deewiant> Obviously you can get straightforward reductions by just putting everything possible in M
18:28:53 <ehird> no drivers for anything but a console, keyboard, drive and whatever else you need to boot
18:29:11 <Deewiant> The module-loading code is probably fairly tiny so you can get away with including that
18:29:21 <ehird> Yes, but modules count
18:29:28 <ehird> anyway, then disable everything else, and compress it.
18:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, bbl food. will try this afterwards
18:29:43 <ehird> can you compile linux on os x
18:31:18 <ehird> targeting a vm will be the best bet
18:31:20 <Deewiant> So what, latest stable or mainline?
18:31:24 <ehird> least janky hardware
18:31:38 <ehird> stable is what people actually use right?
18:32:21 <ehird> a whole 58 megs :(
18:32:31 <Deewiant> 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s
18:32:58 <ehird> fuck this internet
18:33:06 <ehird> Deewiant: i hate you die
18:34:10 <ehird> Deewiant: gimme ssh!! :-P
18:34:33 <ehird> wonder if you can upx compress the kernel
18:34:42 <Deewiant> 'make allnoconfig' gives a 708K bzImage
18:35:05 <ehird> Yes, but can it actually do anything :p
18:35:22 <Deewiant> It can boot an x86, presumably.
18:35:32 <ehird> Well, try it in a VM?
18:36:38 <ehird> You don't have any VM software installed?
18:36:45 <ehird> Well, boot up your machine with it, then :D
18:37:01 <ehird> Anyway, 700 is waaaaaaaaaay too big
18:37:34 <ehird> How much ungzipped
18:37:47 <Deewiant> But yeah, I'm kinda surprised that people can make smaller ones, then :-P
18:38:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe they use oooooooold ones
18:38:09 <pikhq> "allnoconfig" also says no to the option to turn off a few of the different options...
18:38:44 <Deewiant> menuconfig said it was gzip, so anyway
18:38:58 <pikhq> ehird: There's an option to pull up a menu for removing various major features like "error strings". ;)
18:38:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course the whole thing isn't gzipped, since it needs to have a BIOS-readable bit and such.
18:39:13 <ehird> Deewiant: But you tried anyway :P
18:39:33 <pikhq> Also, there's one of the allocators that doesn't use much bzimage space.
18:39:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you asked me to, I was hoping gzip would be somehow clever enough.
18:40:06 <pikhq> Also, 2.6.31 and up can use lzma for the image.
18:40:33 <pikhq> And I though upx could compress a kernel.
18:40:44 <Deewiant> I'm going through menuconfig activating various "disable foo" options.
18:41:07 <pikhq> Ypu, upx supports vmlinuz compression.
18:41:49 <ehird> I wonder if it beats the kernel's own
18:41:50 <Deewiant> Typically that's a typo for "you", not "yup".
18:42:10 <Deewiant> Hmmh, I can't seem to be able to disable mouse support
18:42:24 <ehird> Wonder what the smallest fs is
18:42:46 <ehird> Disabling initrd, yeah?
18:42:49 <Deewiant> Nothing useless like ELF binary support, either.
18:42:58 <Deewiant> I don't even have initrd on the kernel I use
18:43:00 <ais523> you have to support some sort of binary...
18:43:03 <Deewiant> Of course a.out isn't supported either
18:43:18 <ehird> Just execute RAW BINARIES YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
18:43:21 <pikhq> ais523: Strictly speaking, it's optional.
18:43:31 <pikhq> Just not very useful (in general).
18:43:37 <ehird> Deewiant: use 2.4 man
18:43:45 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought we agreed on a version. :-P
18:43:54 <ehird> well yeah but mandatory proc?
18:43:57 <ehird> that's like the devil
18:44:21 <pikhq> I thought that was a disablable option.
18:45:42 <ehird> (Without compressing it in kernel)
18:45:43 <Deewiant> upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: kernel decompression failed
18:46:02 <pikhq> upx is still used to the gzip-only compression.
18:46:04 <Deewiant> ehird: It obviously unpacks it by itself first
18:46:16 <pikhq> Set the kernel to compress with gzip, then let upx have at it.
18:46:39 <Deewiant> ehird: There's no option for lack of compression, only gzip/bzip2/LZMA
18:46:45 <Deewiant> upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: unrecognized kernel architecture; use option '-f' to force packing
18:47:56 <Deewiant> 637952 -> 597310 93.63% bvmlinuz/386 bzImage
18:48:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you compiling with -Os
18:48:30 <ehird> Can you omit frame pointer?
18:48:37 <ehird> I guess -Os does that
18:48:44 <pikhq> Are you telling upx --best?
18:49:29 <Deewiant> Which, BTW, is much more annoying in Windows, where it tries like 72 options instead of the 10 or so it picks from on Linux.
18:49:30 <pikhq> I could've *sworn* one of the things upx does is lzma.
18:50:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Hex edit that thing
18:50:10 <ehird> Any trailing 0s or w/e?
18:50:27 <Deewiant> Setup is 13676 bytes (padded to 13824 bytes).
18:50:35 <Deewiant> So, yes, there's some padding there.
18:50:36 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s <-- wow cool
18:50:49 <ehird> Deewiant: So chop it off
18:50:53 <ehird> If it's trailing who cares
18:51:03 <ehird> AnMaster: That's standard 100 Mb/s speed, no?
18:51:31 <ehird> Move somewhere more urban :P
18:51:38 <ehird> Small price to pay
18:52:02 <AnMaster> how do I crosscompile kernel to x86
18:52:07 <AnMaster> I only have 64-bit systems around atm
18:52:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, upx? it works on kernel?
18:52:41 <Deewiant> Oh yes, mine is 64-bit as well.
18:52:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that.
18:53:01 <Deewiant> I should've built it in my chroot.
18:53:23 <ehird> He's doing it manually
18:53:39 <ehird> Also, what does embedded do? Sounds cheating :(
18:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, allow you to turn off more options
18:53:51 <Deewiant> I started out from allnoconfig.
18:54:00 <pikhq> ehird: Turns off "error messages", swap support, etc.
18:54:07 <pikhq> I think that's in there.
18:54:19 <pikhq> Though if it's not, then that just means /proc is a couple lines of code. :P
18:57:19 <Deewiant> Oh right, I forgot about embedded *facepalm*
18:57:57 <ehird> You gotta boot up to a console and execute a shell with a keyboard, dood
18:58:05 <ehird> (Think embedded + 32-bit + compression fun should reach 200 KiB.)
18:58:06 <Deewiant> I'm just seeing how big a "can't do squat" kernel is
18:58:16 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that. <-- no :(
19:00:04 <ehird> Wonder how ... wossname does
19:00:24 <ehird> it has to actually boot
19:00:36 <Deewiant> What part of "can't do squat" do you not understand?
19:01:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux32 in front works it seems
19:03:27 <Deewiant> Found some more options that embedded opened: I think 334K is just about the smallest 64-bit one possible
19:03:48 <pikhq> Should be a decent amount smaller for 32-bit.
19:03:54 <pikhq> Halving pointers helps. ;)
19:03:55 <Deewiant> Yes, since there I can disable x86.
19:04:05 <pikhq> ... Disable x86???
19:04:15 <Deewiant> pikhq: "Generic X86 support" =n
19:04:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh hpet can be disabled on 64-bit
19:04:23 <Deewiant> On x86-64 that wasn't an option.
19:04:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is because generic x86 isn't supported
19:04:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The option wasn't in the same place, at least.
19:04:46 <AnMaster> it is generic x86-64 support then
19:05:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:06:05 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> And HPET, and VM86, etc.
19:06:11 <Deewiant> I found some more stuff, so 334K can be beaten; won't do that now, though, working on 32-bit.
19:06:14 <AnMaster> vm86 is not supported on 64-bit
19:06:27 <AnMaster> hpet should be possible to turn off for both
19:06:35 <AnMaster> there are plenty of early 64-bit systems without hpet
19:06:39 <Deewiant> There wasn't an HPET option in the same place.
19:09:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this "can't do a squat" or ehird's challenge?
19:09:50 * AnMaster is only doing ehird's challenge
19:11:08 <Deewiant> I have no way of testing whether my thing can actually do anything, so I can't really give reliable answers to ehird's challenge.
19:11:27 <AnMaster> ehird, ok with initramfs instead of proper disk support?
19:11:58 <Deewiant> I don't have any VM-thing installed and can't be bothered to install one and figure it out
19:13:28 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
19:13:28 <Deewiant> Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386.
19:13:49 <Rugxulo> okay, I need people to bugtest my heavy hack of Ryan Kusnery's DOS Befunge93 interpreter
19:13:53 <Rugxulo> http://board.flatassembler.net/download.php?id=4623
19:14:04 <Rugxulo> seems to work for me, but more eyes is best
19:14:18 <Rugxulo> no, I suspect that won't run due to it using 128*128 by default (which I didn't change)
19:14:43 <Deewiant> Mycology's first 80x25 are valid Befunge-93, you can just cut that bit out for interpreters that won't accept bigger files
19:15:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:15:25 <Rugxulo> but what files exactly? aren't there a few I need to run on?
19:16:01 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ryan's webpage is pretty much AWOL now, and I fixed three bugs (and shrank it a lot)
19:16:10 <Deewiant> sanity.bf, first 80x25 of mycology.b98, mycorand.bf, mycouser.b98
19:16:12 <Rugxulo> original TASM version: 1280 bytes, my hacked FASM version: 1021 bytes
19:16:53 <ehird> kernel download done
19:18:39 <Rugxulo> er, what is sanity.bf supposed to do exactly??
19:18:47 <Rugxulo> loop infinitely?? crash gracefully??
19:19:01 <Deewiant> None of them should infloop or crash. :-P
19:19:25 <Rugxulo> "should reflect" ... what exactly does that mean?
19:19:45 <Deewiant> The IP should reverse direction and then continue on its way.
19:19:57 <Rugxulo> really? and that's standard practice??
19:20:02 <Rugxulo> I've never heard of anyone relying on that
19:20:17 <Rugxulo> reference C version does that? (lemme check)
19:21:41 <Deewiant> Also, it's not so much "standard practice" as it is "dictated by the Funge-98 standard", which is what Mycology is testing ;-)
19:21:57 <Deewiant> The -93 standard might be silent about it, I'm not sure.
19:21:59 <ehird> So just to confirm
19:22:05 <ehird> make whateverconfig
19:22:08 <Rugxulo> the BEF-2.2.1.ZIP version (bef.c) seems to print it okay but hangs
19:22:36 <Deewiant> So it probably just ignores invalid commands.
19:22:49 <Deewiant> I guess you can relax that requirement, then.
19:23:05 <ehird> What does that achieve
19:23:07 <Rugxulo> it will whine about invalid commands unless -q is specified, though
19:23:13 <Rugxulo> (bef.c was updated in 2004)
19:23:20 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know, it's just what I do.
19:23:34 <Deewiant> Nope, that's not what it does.
19:23:36 <ehird> What about those noconfig, embedded things
19:23:44 <ehird> Can I still use the fancy GUIs?
19:23:55 <Deewiant> The compression is specified in the .config, not by using 'bzImage'.
19:24:11 <Deewiant> I don't know if it's any different from plain 'make'.
19:24:19 <Deewiant> ehird: I started with allnoconfig and then used menuconfig.
19:24:37 <Rugxulo> ah, I see what bef.c does now ... it ignores invalid instructions but your "intentionally inValid" string has a "v" which makes it loop endlessly downwards :-P
19:25:01 <Deewiant> If it didn't have a v, it'd endlessly print the string. :-P
19:25:24 <Deewiant> (Since it'd go back to the start.)
19:25:26 <ehird> Deewiant: do you do embedded in menuconfig?
19:25:36 <Deewiant> Yes, it's a perfectly normal option.
19:25:47 <Deewiant> Can't remember where, may have been "general setup".
19:26:10 <ehird> Wonder if this compiles with Apple's gcc 4.0
19:26:33 <ehird> fdimage - Create 1.4MB boot floppy image (arch/x86/boot/fdimage)
19:26:40 <ehird> Wonder where it gets the root FS from
19:27:57 <ehird> Doesn't look like a too bad UI.
19:28:47 <ehird> Gives crazy things like GENERIC_TIME
19:28:52 <ehird> With no description
19:29:04 <ehird> AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at
19:29:14 <Deewiant> 2009-10-24 21:13:28 ( Deewiant) Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386.
19:29:16 <ehird> (First is "boots to shell w/ kb", second is "fails to do anything at aa ll")
19:29:20 <ehird> Deewiant: 32-bit, then.
19:29:46 <ehird> Oh, good point, I'll disable X86_32.
19:29:47 <ehird> (Did you look at the SCARY_UPPERCASE_OPTIONS?)
19:30:05 <Deewiant> I didn't look in the .config after that, if that's what you mean.
19:30:39 <ehird> Right, it hides that stuff
19:31:03 <ehird> "Enable loadable module support (NEW)"
19:31:32 <ehird> Disabling the block layer won't help me run a shell, that's for sure
19:31:58 <ehird> Do you actually need any I/O schedulers, or will it just do some dumbfuck retarded thing if you don't enable any? :D
19:32:43 * ehird wonders if a tickless system would result in less code
19:32:46 <ehird> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING
19:33:05 <Deewiant> There's a default scheduler of some kind if you disable them all.
19:33:26 <ehird> Yep, the no-op scheduler!
19:34:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX?
19:35:25 <ehird> "Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap)"
19:35:33 <ehird> They make it sound all so exciting and revolutionary.
19:35:36 <ehird> Every single boring option.
19:36:03 <ehird> IPC? Now what would I want IPC for
19:36:23 <ehird> "Select kernel log buffer size as power of two"
19:36:32 <ehird> WONDER IF THAT GOES INTO THE BINARY
19:37:04 <ehird> "remove sysfs features which" what is this sysfs
19:37:15 <ehird> Namespaces support? srsly?!
19:37:24 <ehird> Okay how the fuck do you uncheck an option
19:38:06 <ehird> That just brings up the gtk search-in-this-list thingy
19:38:21 <ehird> So much for easy-to-use GUIs
19:38:59 <Rugxulo> Deewiant: nope, hangs on B93 part of mycology
19:39:11 <Rugxulo> your testsuite is maybe a little too "hardcore" ;-)
19:39:28 <Rugxulo> all my examples I tried seem to work, though, so I guess until I figure out what exactly, it's "good enough"
19:39:50 <ehird> HOW DO YOU DISABLE THIS NAMESPACES SUPPORT ARGH
19:40:29 <Deewiant> That sucks quite a bit, actually; it should definitely say "0 1 2 ", at least :-P
19:40:41 <Rugxulo> mmm, pumpkin-flavor ice cream
19:41:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, oh, but pressing y on an item works, and then pops up the find thingy anyway
19:41:14 <Deewiant> The only instructions hit by the time you get to "0 1 2" are 0#>. 1v<2
19:41:20 <ehird> Joy! And so does n!
19:41:46 <ehird> Seems you just can't turn off that lovable namespace support
19:41:49 <ehird> I'll do it in .config
19:42:30 <ehird> Embedded: "Only use this if you really know what you are doing."
19:42:36 <ehird> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
19:42:56 <ehird> Legacy 16-bit UID syscall wrappers, eh? Wonder if going 32-bit only + that would be smaller than 16-bit. (Nah?)
19:43:11 <ehird> Can Linux even boot a 16-bit x86
19:43:16 <Deewiant> That was the last option I disabled to get to 279K instead of 280K.
19:44:29 <SimonRC> a word that English needs: hypersubtext
19:44:47 <Rugxulo> ehird, no, Linux needs a 386+ ... but ELKS can run on 8088/8086 (never tried)
19:44:49 <SimonRC> It's where you add extra meaning to some text by making words into links
19:44:53 <ehird> SimonRC: It really doesn't
19:45:07 <pikhq> The reason for those 16-bit syscall wrappers is, IIRC, for the sake of DOSemu.
19:45:08 <Rugxulo> ehird, 32-bit code is almost always larger than 16-bit
19:45:12 <SimonRC> Encyclopedia Dramatica does it a fair bit
19:45:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: No shit, but I don't need 16-bit code if I can't boot into it :P
19:45:44 <ehird> gconfig is worthless, menuconfig time
19:45:46 <Rugxulo> dunno, BIOS somewhere maybe??
19:46:31 <ehird> Ah, namespaces support is built-in
19:46:59 <ehird> Unless you check embedded! Yay!
19:47:00 <Rugxulo> <ehird>Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX?
19:47:28 <Rugxulo> maybe 'cause it's old LZMA 4.43
19:47:37 <ehird> │ This option is provided for the case where no hotplug or uevent │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ capabilities is wanted by the kernel. You should only consider │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ disabling this option for embedded systems that do not use modules, a │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ dynamic /dev tree, or dynamic device discovery. Just say Y. │
19:47:47 <Rugxulo> BTW, so nobody here has ever heard of or tried pumpkin-flavored ice cream???? o_O
19:48:00 <ehird> printk? Who the fuck wants printk?
19:48:25 <ehird> I spit on PC speakers!
19:48:39 <ehird> │ Disabling this option will cause the kernel to be built without │
19:48:39 <Rugxulo> spitting on one makes the same sound as its music ;-)
19:48:39 <ehird> │ support for "fast userspace mutexes". The resulting kernel may not │
19:48:39 <ehird> │ run glibc-based applications correctly. │
19:48:42 <ehird> Who cares about glibc?
19:48:47 <ehird> But I wonder if it'll make it smaller.
19:48:50 <Rugxulo> BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too
19:48:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at <-- just back again
19:49:02 <Rugxulo> uh, everything uses glibc ...
19:49:14 <ehird> Shared memory? Bulllllllllshit
19:49:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: Busybox doesn't
19:49:18 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too <-- yes. In ALSA
19:49:25 <ehird> AND BUSYBOX IS ALL THAT MATTERS
19:49:26 <Rugxulo> ehird, I mean I suspect you'll want it
19:49:28 <pikhq> I thought busybox used a libc?
19:49:30 <Deewiant> And some other things that don't use libc don't, either.
19:49:43 <Rugxulo> I meant most big apps that most people use
19:49:46 <pikhq> (though absolutely nothing glibc-specific)
19:49:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: We're competing for smallest kernel that can boot a shell to an x86 with a console, keyboard,
19:49:58 <ais523> busybox uses ulibc, I think; possibly statically linked
19:50:08 <ehird> Things shall get GNARLY
19:50:12 <ehird> Rugxulo: It's a game, you see.
19:50:14 <SimonRC> you think possibly you could have a busybox shell without utilities ;-)
19:50:16 <pikhq> ais523: busybox uses whatever libc you want to link it with.
19:50:22 <Rugxulo> ehird, I *completely* understand
19:50:34 <Rugxulo> I just spent the last two days whittling down a 1213-byte .COM to 1021 bytes ;-)
19:50:38 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea where I can find an a.out compiler/linker
19:50:41 <ehird> VM event counters? laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
19:50:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Compile one
19:50:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Grab gcc-3 or gcc-2.
19:51:01 <pikhq> Maybe even gcc 4.0.
19:51:05 <ehird> "Strip assembler-generated symbols during link" FUCK YES
19:51:09 <pikhq> I know it's been removed in the latest version.
19:51:10 <ais523> IIRC they deprecated a.out recently
19:51:17 <ehird> Which can still do it, I think
19:51:26 <pikhq> ehird: Still need to build a new gcc.
19:51:30 <AnMaster> "Enable doublefault exception handler" no way
19:51:37 <ehird> Disable heap randomisation?
19:51:39 <pikhq> (it's a different target)
19:51:40 <ehird> That probably takes up code, doesn't it
19:51:59 <ehird> SLAB, SLUB or SLOB. SLOB is "Simple Allocator".
19:52:02 <ehird> I bet it's the smallest.
19:52:07 <ehird> MORE SPACE EFFICIENT
19:52:07 <pikhq> SLOB is the smallest.
19:52:09 <ehird> DRASTICALLY SIMPLER
19:52:11 <ehird> DEPENDS ON EMBEDDED
19:52:29 <Rugxulo> ehird, BasicLinux is pretty small, so is tomsrtbt or BlueFlops
19:52:29 <ehird> Can you -fomit-frame-pointer on the kernel? :P
19:52:36 <ehird> Rugxulo: Dude, those are whole meg floppies
19:52:41 <ehird> We're going for 200 KiB range to start with
19:52:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, there's a config option for that.
19:52:44 <ehird> Holy grail is under 100 KiB
19:52:55 <Rugxulo> BTW, what version are you trying, 2.6?
19:53:12 <ehird> It's so bloated and cute
19:53:20 <Rugxulo> (Smash TV): "Good luck, you'll need it!"
19:53:28 <Rugxulo> heh, even Linus called it bloated
19:53:30 <ehird> Do you think the dynamic ticks / tickless system will have less code?
19:53:35 <ehird> Doesn't have to handle... ticks... does it?!
19:53:43 <ehird> Of course it has to handle a bunch of other shit too I guess :P
19:54:01 <Deewiant> 277K with SLOB instead of SLAB.
19:54:20 <ehird> │ Calculate simpler /proc/<PID>/wchan values. If this option │
19:54:21 <ehird> │ is disabled then wchan values will recurse back to the │
19:54:21 <ehird> │ caller function. This provides more accurate wchan values, │
19:54:22 <ehird> │ at the expense of slightly more scheduling overhead. │
19:54:30 <ehird> IRRRRRRRRRR-ELEVANT
19:54:53 <ehird> Pentium Pro? PENTIUM FUCKING PRO?
19:54:53 <ehird> I'm not a rich asshole
19:54:53 <ehird> And that's all I am
19:55:13 <ehird> I wonder if Generic x86 support's optimisations will decrease code size
19:55:32 <ehird> │ Enabled scanning of DMI to identify machine quirks. Say Y │
19:55:32 <ehird> │ here unless you have verified that your setup is not │
19:55:32 <ehird> │ affected by entries in the DMI blacklist. Required by PNP │
19:55:34 <Deewiant> ehird: Sorry, tickless adds about 2K.
19:56:19 <ehird> No forced preemption, last code
19:56:21 <Rugxulo> http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/23/linus-torvalds-gives-windows-7-a-big-thumbs-up/
19:56:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Generic X86 adds about 9K.
19:56:23 <ehird> Man this will be slow as shit
19:56:49 <ehird> │ This option is required by programs like DOSEMU to run 16-bit legacy │
19:56:50 <ehird> │ code on X86 processors. It also may be needed by software like │
19:56:50 <ehird> │ XFree86 to initialize some video cards via BIOS. Disabling this │
19:56:51 <ehird> │ option saves about 6k. │
19:56:57 <SimonRC> I wasn't certain when I say it before
19:57:15 <ehird> Have you got high memory support on, Deewiant?
19:57:29 <ehird> │ This is the portion of low virtual memory which should be protected │
19:57:29 <ehird> │ from userspace allocation. Keeping a user from writing to low pages │
19:57:29 <ehird> │ can help reduce the impact of kernel NULL pointer bugs. │
19:57:32 <ehird> Wonder if that affects the binary
19:57:36 <ehird> CONFIG_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR
19:57:39 <Deewiant> 100Hz instead of 250 -> 282960
19:57:56 <ehird> Is there anything below 100Hz
19:58:19 <ehird> │ │ (0x1000000) Physical address where the kernel is loaded (NEW) │ │
19:58:20 <ehird> │ │ (0x1000000) Alignment value to which kernel should be aligned │ │
19:58:27 <Deewiant> Even 1000Hz was smaller than 250Hz, actually
19:58:50 <ehird> Does that change the actual binary
19:59:22 <Deewiant> Evidently 0xffff also works for the latter... will see if that changes anything
19:59:47 * ehird enables a.out support, I'll have to crosscompile the binaries anyway
20:00:04 <Deewiant> Nope, #error "Invalid value for CONFIG_PHYSICAL_ALIGN"
20:00:53 <Deewiant> Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960.
20:01:00 <Rugxulo> how big is the generic kernel?
20:01:07 <pikhq> Think it has to be sizeof(void*)-aligned.
20:01:09 <Rugxulo> and why not try something like Minix instead? (probably smaller)
20:01:18 <Rugxulo> generic as in "everything included"
20:01:22 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Missing the point FTW.
20:01:23 <Deewiant> pikhq: It didn't accept 0x1000 or anything smaller starting with 0x1
20:01:56 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying this isn't a worthy exercise, but Minix is probably more "minimal"
20:01:58 <Deewiant> 0x2000 was the smallest power of two it accepted
20:02:09 <ehird> │ CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD: │
20:02:09 <ehird> │ Say yes to avoid building firmware. Firmware is usually shipped │
20:02:12 <ehird> │ with the driver, and only when updating the firmware a rebuild │
20:02:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with or without upx?
20:02:15 <ehird> │ should be made. │
20:02:18 <ehird> CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD
20:02:22 <ehird> Sounds good anyway
20:02:24 * ehird enables block devices SHOCK HORROR
20:02:26 <ehird> Hmm... floppy disk, RAM block, or VeryOldHardDisk.
20:02:28 <ehird> Probably RAM block is the simplest, but then everything has to fit into the bootsector
20:02:32 <ehird> Although that would be awesome
20:02:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you don't have extra firmware I don't think that makes a difference
20:02:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah your was minimal unusable right?
20:02:40 <ehird> Deewiant: does it make it smaller?
20:03:14 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-10-24 22:00:52 ( Deewiant) Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960.
20:03:26 <ehird> Right, just confirming
20:03:34 <ehird> I wonder whether Very old hard disk or Normal floppy disk will be smaller
20:03:53 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm building an allyesconfig for you
20:04:22 <Rugxulo> I think *BSD is typically like 8 MB for generic
20:04:29 <ehird> Does that support all architectures, Deewiant?
20:04:38 <Rugxulo> (OpenBSD is a little smaller due to no modules or compatibility or whatever, I think)
20:04:44 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what flavour of x86 it selects anyway
20:04:54 <Deewiant> Probably the default, which is that PentiumPro or whatever
20:04:57 <ehird> This sort of stuff has some sorta practical usage! http://stali.suckless.org/
20:05:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Pfft, Core2 4eva
20:05:24 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: This won't have any modules, of course
20:05:32 <Deewiant> Since everything'll be built-in. :-P
20:05:40 <Rugxulo> ehird, GCC doesn't really do much beyond PPro (CMOV..)
20:05:45 <Deewiant> I should've timed the build...
20:05:48 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure that's what it means
20:05:56 <ehird> So guys, very old hard disk or floppy
20:06:01 <Rugxulo> one guy told me it took him 30 mins. to rebuild his FreeBSD kernel
20:06:03 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure it knows about some instruction timings / whatever
20:06:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no floppy, no disk for me
20:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going for initramfs instead
20:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Wherefore art thou busybox
20:06:25 <Deewiant> E.g. on x86 processor X instruction I is preferable to J, but not on processor Y.
20:06:30 <ehird> AnMaster: That'll bloat the shit out of it
20:06:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it will be smaller
20:06:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: Why floppy, why not disk
20:06:58 <Rugxulo> Deewiant, yes, but "pentiumpro" is just a synonym for "i686" anyways (and "generic", last I checked)
20:07:03 <ehird> It explicitly states the disk thing is for very old disks and is unfancy
20:07:28 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Sure, but "yonah" and "core2" and whatever aren't, so it does do something with that info. :-P
20:07:48 <Deewiant> ehird: There is a third option: try both!
20:08:03 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: It implies various SSE things, of course.
20:08:15 <Rugxulo> yes, but GCC isn't too great at that (although at least 4.3.2+ tries ...)
20:08:25 <Deewiant> Not sure if the kernel benefits from that at all unless you build in the various crypto algos
20:08:26 <Rugxulo> very very weakly, but it does try
20:08:41 <ehird> The floppy disk thing is common
20:08:48 <ehird> So old creaky minimal disk = less bloat
20:08:53 <Rugxulo> besides, there is no Core1 tuning at all, I think you have to use prescott (or maybe nocona)
20:08:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can't use SSE in kernel sanely iirc
20:09:00 <Rugxulo> not that most people have that (me either)
20:09:11 <ehird> Netburst = Pentium4
20:09:21 <Rugxulo> no, Core 1 was based upon Pentium-M
20:09:25 <Rugxulo> which was mobile P3 w/ SSE2
20:09:49 <ehird> Rugxulo: You're right
20:09:54 <Rugxulo> Core 1 didn't support 64-bit, though
20:09:59 <AnMaster> is smallest I get with block layer
20:10:15 <ehird> generic HID support = keyboard, right?
20:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, generic hid is USB stuff
20:10:44 <Rugxulo> heh, it'll be a miracle if this thing runs at all ;-)
20:10:45 <AnMaster> ehird, just enable AT keyboard under input devices
20:10:58 <ehird> Ah, didn't notice that
20:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you sure an XT keyboard wouldn't be less bloated :-)
20:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anything that can emulate it?
20:11:39 <ehird> This game is basically "Find the bits of Linux everyone else has forgotten about"
20:11:55 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just a parallel port board, ask the guys at geekhack.org to find one, they'll hook you up an ebay link in a pinch :P
20:12:05 <ehird> AnMaster: The more popular bits of Linux are "improved" more
20:12:17 <ehird> We're digging to find stuff retained from the olden days
20:12:24 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 329824 for me. Not tested
20:12:26 <Deewiant> The generic input layer can't be removed, though
20:12:40 <ehird> Where do you disable sysfs, I wonder
20:12:48 <Deewiant> Oh, wtf, I have virtual terminal support
20:12:50 <ehird> POSIX FILE LOCKING API? BULLSHIT
20:13:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, needed for actual terminal
20:13:22 <ehird> ext2, ext3, ext4, murderfs oops I mean reiserfs
20:13:23 <AnMaster> but then you aren't doing ehird's
20:13:29 <ehird> JFS, XFS... all bloated piles of shit
20:13:32 <ehird> ok, DOS/FAT/NT It is
20:13:47 <ehird> Bet I beat you eventually
20:13:58 <ehird> │ This option will enlarge your kernel by about 7 KB. If unsure, │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ answer Y. This will only work if you said Y to "DOS FAT fs support" │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ as well. To compile this as a module, choose M here: the module will │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ be called msdos. │
20:14:05 <ehird> Can't I just have FAT12 :(
20:14:20 <Deewiant> (VTs are bloated! That was 10%)
20:14:38 <ehird> "It's totally cool" — CONFIG_PROC_FS
20:15:01 <Deewiant> allyesconfig is still building happily
20:15:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Make sure to enable US-ASCII in Native language support
20:15:44 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you need to have at least one there
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Setup is 11980 bytes (padded to 12288 bytes).
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Kernel: arch/x86/boot/bzImage is ready (#4)
20:15:46 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/src/kernel/linux-2.6.31.5 $ du -b arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:15:48 <Rugxulo> but I admire you using it (most Linuxes don't even have beyond 4.3.3 yet)
20:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, unless you are doing FAT
20:15:59 <Rugxulo> although 4.4.2 is out ;-))
20:16:10 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Arch Linux's package.
20:16:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, is ASCII built-in? It's an option
20:16:21 <ehird> I'll go with FAT disks for now
20:16:23 <ehird> can always change it
20:16:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't built in. Kernel uses unicode for FSes internally
20:16:49 <ehird> CODE LOTS OF CODE KILL
20:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, probably it doesn't actually care
20:17:09 <Rugxulo> that's nothing, Win7 needs 16 GB of space (and twice that if you use XP Mode)
20:17:18 <AnMaster> to it, it is just "not \0, not /"
20:17:23 <ehird> │ │ [*] Early printk (NEW) │ │
20:17:24 <Deewiant> Of course, Win7 is more than just a kernel.
20:17:29 <ehird> How does that work, I don't even have printk
20:17:48 <Rugxulo> yeah, it lets 5-year-old girls make slideshows with copyrighted songs
20:17:54 <ehird> │ │ [ ] Use 4Kb for kernel stacks instead of 8Kb │ │
20:17:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Reduces size?
20:18:05 <ehird> │ This option allows trapping of rare doublefault exceptions that │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ would otherwise cause a system to silently reboot. Disabling this │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ option saves about 4k and might cause you much additional grey │
20:18:33 <ehird> │ │ [ ] Allow gcc to uninline functions marked 'inline' │ │
20:18:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Might that shrink it?
20:18:57 <AnMaster> it might, didn't test without it
20:19:01 <ehird> Uh, how do I save?
20:19:03 <ehird> Is that automatically done?
20:19:15 <Rugxulo> -march=i386 -Os -s -fomit-frame-pointer -malign-jumps=2 -malign-loops=2 -malign-functions=2 (I think ... although this is obviously untested on a kernel)
20:19:19 <Deewiant> There's also an explicit save at the top-level
20:19:37 <ehird> [~/Downloads/linux-2.6.31.5]$ cp .config ../linuxconfig
20:19:44 <ehird> Time for make bzImage?????
20:19:54 <ehird> How long will this take, I wonder
20:19:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Deewiant does it this way
20:19:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:20:22 <ehird> Someone wanna build this for me?
20:20:24 <ehird> Can't really, you know
20:20:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Hey, 255424 with 4kb stacks
20:20:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Increase the stacks!
20:20:53 <ehird> Which one of you kindly fellows can I enlist to copy this .config over and build it
20:20:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_09/mn7105_cover.gif
20:21:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Quite small
20:21:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Want me to pastebin it?
20:22:13 <Deewiant> strip:bzImage: File format not recognized
20:22:20 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/668209.txt?key=dxgyzbdi6maappqvzlocq
20:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: (for 32-bit please)
20:22:35 <ehird> CONFIG_OUTPUT_FORMAT="elf32-i386"
20:22:43 <ehird> Do you have the ability to make that a.out?
20:23:02 <ehird> If so, uh, please do :/
20:23:05 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Well, Linux does support a lot more stuff than your average BSD.
20:23:16 <Rugxulo> obviously, it's three times as big!
20:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and I only have gcc 4.x here
20:23:37 <ehird> So? 4.0.1 does it, I think :P
20:23:46 <ehird> Anyway, ELF is fine
20:23:49 <ehird> The kernel only supports a.out
20:23:57 <ehird> I'll need to crosscompile to compile the busyboxing
20:24:02 <ehird> Hmm, can you even use elf.h on a non-ELF system
20:24:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I have 4.4 and 4.5-snapshot too
20:24:15 <AnMaster> but the latter one miscompiles everything
20:24:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does do LTO though
20:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird, your kernel: 342976 arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:25:31 <AnMaster> ehird, want me to upload the bzimage somewhere?
20:25:36 <ehird> Gonna have to get jiggy wit' it, as is the vernacular, I gather, to further this downwardsly
20:25:39 <AnMaster> if so, give me a command line to execute to do it
20:25:44 <ehird> AnMaster: It's an ELF that can only load a.outs and I have no system to do anything
20:25:56 <ehird> Besides, who cares if it works if it works in theory?
20:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you said it had to boot in a VM?
20:26:37 <Rugxulo> 10/24/2009 02:26 PM 11,481,646 netbsd-GENERIC
20:26:42 <ehird> I wonder if the MISC binary support is smaller than the a.out binary support
20:26:47 <ehird> │ If you say Y here, it will be possible to plug wrapper-driven binary │
20:26:48 <ehird> │ formats into the kernel. You will like this especially when you use │
20:26:48 <ehird> │ programs that need an interpreter to run like Java, Python, .NET or │
20:26:49 <ehird> │ Emacs-Lisp. It's also useful if you often run DOS executables under │
20:26:52 <ehird> WHAT IS THIS HORROR
20:26:56 <ehird> WHAT IS THIS HORROR
20:27:20 <AnMaster> ehird, can't be done. I checked
20:27:24 -!- madbrain has joined.
20:27:26 <AnMaster> LD drivers/video/backlight/built-in.o
20:27:36 <ehird> ..................................... You can't get rid of wireless?
20:27:38 <zzo38> Pokemon Philosophy is a complex subject filled with contradictions. Many subphilosophies are used of it, based on opinion, context, and other things. For example, I have the terms "strongly basic" and "weakly basic" used to describe some things, and other terms are used too. Maybe you can guess what these terms mean, maybe not. Maybe I should make a wiki of it
20:27:40 <ehird> What is that fucking bullshit crapass
20:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it is just a placeholder wireless thingy
20:28:06 <ehird> Just done /backlight, nothing I can find
20:28:38 <Rugxulo> NetBSD: 11.5 MB, Linux: 27 MB
20:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway http://pastebin.ca/1641881
20:28:50 * ehird does romfs on a floppy disk or something
20:29:16 <ehird> │ This is a very small read-only file system mainly intended for │
20:29:17 <ehird> │ initial ram disks of installation disks, but it could be used for │
20:29:17 <ehird> │ other read-only media as well. Read │
20:29:18 <ehird> │ <file:Documentation/filesystems/romfs.txt> for details. │
20:29:19 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm not sure whether 'allyesconfig' is the fully generic thing, anyway; it may include a lot of 'disable X'.
20:29:37 <ehird> whichever is smaller.
20:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you only get one more compile from me
20:29:56 <Rugxulo> http://www.catseye.tc/projects/befos/
20:29:59 <ehird> Then I have to pay?
20:30:22 <ehird> Can you see which is bigger, floppy disk driiver or very old hard disk driver
20:30:50 <AnMaster> $ file arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:30:50 <AnMaster> arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o: current ar archive
20:31:14 <AnMaster> $ du -b arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:31:14 <AnMaster> 8 arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:32:23 <AnMaster> ehird, [ ] Supported processor vendors --->
20:32:35 <AnMaster> should remove some code to check
20:32:52 <AnMaster> though it might be in the padded setup hm
20:33:15 <ehird> It's totally disabled
20:34:13 <augur> its making some pinging noise outside
20:34:28 <augur> and it sounds just like the name ping in limechat
20:37:53 <ehird> hope that answers your question
20:38:57 <AnMaster> curriculum vitae: a summary of your academic and work history
20:38:57 <AnMaster> one hundred five: being five more than one hundred
20:38:57 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:39:00 <ehird> i need to know which of these is smaller :<
20:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you have a linux install on there?
20:39:51 <AnMaster> .fj is the country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Fiji.
20:40:09 <madbrain> anmaster: isn't the english name for CV "resumé" ?
20:40:25 <AnMaster> madbrain, maybe. CV is the term I heard for it here in Sweden
20:40:33 <AnMaster> wouldn't know about English name for it
20:40:42 <ehird> cv is used in uk english
20:41:20 <AnMaster> who cares about US, AU or CA English?
20:42:12 <AnMaster> (probably it is something like "dinga-waly" in AU English anyway :P)
20:42:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Sorry, I rebooted to Windows. :-P
20:43:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but if you told him "fuck you" it would be a lot funnier
20:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird, just reboot into linux yourself
20:44:03 <ehird> steps omitted: get hfs+ reading fucking working, move file, move kernel over, get used to the new environment, reconnect to irc, blah bla hla ldfgdfklv,hbjk
20:44:45 <AnMaster> ehird, eh. Just pastebin it, write down url on paper, enter the url again on the other side
20:44:51 <AnMaster> and start using a bouncer again
20:44:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
20:45:00 <ehird> oh, and redownload all the kernel?
20:45:09 <ehird> with my dog-slow internet that costs £15 per GB?
20:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh forgot that it took more than ~20 seconds for you
20:45:15 <HackEgo> 15 UK = 166.055793 Swedish kronor
20:45:37 <AnMaster> sorry, it takes about one minute for me
20:45:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Wasn't it 5 seconds?
20:45:56 <ehird> It is mobile and 3G, you understand
20:46:03 <ehird> The pricing is incomprehensible
20:46:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh I thought that was "time left"
20:46:15 <madbrain> dude, in canada, mobile internet is like 3¢/kb
20:46:20 <ehird> Land line connection hasn't migrated sucks ass
20:46:21 <Deewiant> At least for downloading 60-megabyte files :-P
20:46:25 <ehird> Will only be 3-4 Mb when it has sucks ass
20:46:31 <ehird> madbrain: What, mobile "broadband"?
20:46:52 <madbrain> specifically cell phone internet
20:47:07 <madbrain> used in a place like mexico to get roaming charges
20:47:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe, I didn't look at it in too much detail myself.
20:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, ok just checked 74s at 819K/s
20:47:44 <ehird> When I move to Sweden and steal that 4 Gb connection they gave to that guy's grandma
20:47:46 <ehird> YOU'LL ALL BE CRYING
20:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, um this is 8 mbit down ADSL
20:48:00 <madbrain> ehird: specifically this http://your.rogers.com/Business/productsservices/wireless/servicesaddons/pccards.asp?&cm_mmc=grdrt-_-all-_-en-_-stick
20:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Your statement is apropos of nothing
20:48:23 <ehird> madbrain: more or less expensive, I'm too tired to work it out
20:48:26 <fizzie> ineiros just downloaded a 60M file with my 3G stick, which is contractually limited to 384k. I guess it was some 15 minutes.
20:48:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Some internet guy
20:49:23 <madbrain> ehird: like, some people used it in the dominican republic and raked up bills of 1500$ from 3 or 4 sessions of about 10 minutes each
20:49:25 <ehird> I keep fingering the keyboard for my f key's nub, but I replaced it with another key
20:49:49 <fizzie> Mobile roaming has some really incredible prices. And often huge granularity in the pricing.
20:50:22 <ehird> it's just depressing that I'm gonna make the leap from mobile ... to ... 3-4 Mb adsl
20:50:37 <fizzie> Roaming GPRS in Italy (for our Finnish operators) was something like 10 EUR/megabyte.
20:51:09 <madbrain> ""Data Other data 4,220.00 Kb 211.00DL $211.00 Txt ""
20:51:25 <fizzie> (But since one operator counted it in 10k block, sending small emails with a custom-built proggie was still cheaper than SMS.)
20:51:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:52:09 <madbrain> ehird: that's why mobile telephony isn't as popular in canada as in other countries... their rates are astronomic
20:52:17 <fizzie> Hey, it's the altparty supercomputer democompo real soon now.
20:53:01 <ehird> we can't get cable, fibre-optic, pony-delivered internet, anything here, just regular adsl dog slow at 3-4 Mb/s because the exchange is in another fucking town >_<
20:53:17 <fizzie> They had invited a guy from Cray, and he had brought one of those "put-it-unside-your-desk" "supercomputers" (Cray CX1, I think) with him. (The actual competition used one of CSC's machines, I think.)
20:54:36 <fizzie> And apparently they're running it with the CX1 too, a shame. Makes sense, though.
20:54:52 <ehird> Youuuuuuuuuuuuu have a linux system don't you
20:55:11 <ehird> mWAHAhAHAHAHAHahAHAHAHAHAHA
20:55:17 <fizzie> A couple, yes, but I'm not actually at them right now.
20:55:25 <ehird> CURSES! Foiled again!
20:55:55 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:58:24 <fizzie> http://www.altparty.org/2009/competition-rules.html#csc-compo and "Technical specifications"; it's just that you can't really call the CX1 a "supercomputer"; it's just a small commodity cluster compressed into a tiny-ish box. (Okay, so the infiniband network is a bit special.)
21:09:34 <ehird> All supercomputers are commodity clusters
21:10:51 <Deewiant> But they come in bigger boxes.
21:15:49 -!- jix has joined.
21:17:27 <madbrain> cray parallel computer demo eh?
21:19:58 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
21:21:58 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, no, I just ate half a garlic
21:21:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:22:22 <Oranjer1> I agree, I am glad that water exists
21:24:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, on the other hand, userfriendly took a rather unexpected turn as of recently
21:24:47 <AnMaster> (iirc you read (or at least read) it?)
21:25:20 <AnMaster> (curses, past tense of read is read)
21:25:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: i understood your tenses perfectly :D
21:26:13 <AnMaster> I just answered your question Oranjer1
21:26:38 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, that is, "irregular webcomic" and "userfriendly"
21:28:14 <oerjan> i am glad my attempt to be obscure worked
21:28:17 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: i understood your tenses per fectly :D <-- ?
21:28:27 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
21:28:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:28:44 <Oranjer1> what's going on I am scared this scares me
21:28:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: user friendly in two words
21:29:21 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, you are always so emotional and confused...
21:29:42 <Oranjer1> fungot, what's your emotional trauma?
21:29:43 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, you keep reminding me of Sgeo
21:29:47 <fungot> Oranjer1: fnord noting in almost every case the well-nigh omnipresent sculptures, which indeed seem to have difficulty in seeing at night, he tethered his zebra to a sapling and fnord himself deliberately north along garrison street. by the time dr. waite called in person, having obtained his name and fortune. so the youth had found himself working, chilled and clad only in the fnord air. the temperature was rapidly ascending,
21:29:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:30:34 <oerjan> that sounds traumatic indeed
21:31:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, sadly less so than one could have hoped with that style
21:31:05 <Oranjer1> "having obtained his name and fortune" :O
21:31:17 <fungot> AnMaster: through the gates of his lost boyhood which caused a number of these the good man could truly tell nothing. it is an impression quite similar to one which i have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to those you call men, or th
21:31:45 <AnMaster> it shouldn't have missed your line Oranjer1
21:31:54 <oerjan> time is non-euclidean in that style
21:32:06 <fungot> Oranjer1: and tore him to pieces before my eyes. a moment later i had raised one of the current arkham tales is about fat oaks that shine and move as they ought to be. they told me the hideous secret of nyarlathotep, with that torrent of wind and shrieking sound growing moment by moment, and then
21:32:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, to scared to continue
21:32:45 <Oranjer1> this does remind me of that one game
21:32:53 <Oranjer1> where you traverse some stories
21:32:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Missing that line was perfectly normal: the last few were to him, so the anti-spamming filter kicked in.
21:33:15 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> fungot, say something scary
21:33:16 <fungot> AnMaster: outside, across the putrid moat and under the sea; but carter did not see this time the bodies must have been sent fnord. i am telling the truth, and i literally raced along the fnord brink, but at no time did he give up hope. early this year he made great fnord through a book he desperately fnord so at length they strove to exercise fnord, fnord
21:33:17 <fungot> AnMaster: decade on every hand, while on his chest and of apelike claws on his back; and when they had a kind of force that doesn't belong in our part of space where form does not exist at all, but concerned the more abstract matters which i have since found highly characteristic of him that this part of the lore of the past was his undoing. he stumbled on things no mortal ought ever to know, for then mankind would have become
21:34:10 <Oranjer1> geez I'm all up for random fnord's but that's too much
21:34:43 <ehird> [21:28] Oranjer1: what's going on I am scared this scares me
21:34:43 <ehird> vaguely pfsc. except too excited.
21:35:01 <ehird> http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/
21:35:16 <ehird> this is the day where we refer to webcomics in acronyms
21:36:16 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, I assume you don't dislike TLAs at least?
21:36:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, so all acronyms except TLAs then?
21:37:36 <Oranjer1> oh uh I am okay with no length of acronym sorry
21:37:51 <Oranjer1> TLA's (three letter acronyms) are out as well
21:38:19 <Oranjer1> I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them
21:39:11 <ehird> thank you, captain obvious
21:39:19 <ehird> i am promoting you to general obvious
21:39:22 <ehird> for your keen insights into the absolutely obvious
21:39:24 <ehird> congratulations, AnMaster
21:39:26 <Oranjer1> I prefer buttersafe and Perry Bible Fellowship
21:39:39 <ehird> pbf stopped updating often and i became a sad person
21:39:45 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them <-- I did. Some months ago
21:39:52 <Oranjer1> http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php
21:40:01 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, when I first read iwc
21:40:07 <Oranjer1> no each time you say it in a new medium
21:40:26 <ehird> it's not even a game
21:40:41 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php <-- what is it about
21:40:59 <ehird> thank you AnMaster. we care about your opinion on flash
21:40:59 <Oranjer1> you...you don't even have a flash player plug-in?
21:41:05 <ehird> please mention it to us all the time
21:41:10 <ehird> oh wait, never mind
21:41:33 <Oranjer1> yeah I know I was like "wow" too
21:41:43 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
21:41:48 <AnMaster> Oranjer, no java plugin either
21:41:57 <ehird> YOU ARE SO RADICAL ANMASTER
21:41:59 <AnMaster> Oranjer, and javascript turned off
21:42:00 <ehird> keep fighting the good fight
21:42:03 <ehird> viva la revolucion!
21:42:06 <ehird> stick it to the man
21:42:06 <Oranjer> there's one thing to hate it but uh you are missing out a lot I would say
21:42:09 <ehird> tell us some more, this is practically erotica
21:42:25 <ehird> i was getting kinda tired of the once every two week thing hearing it, so
21:42:28 <Oranjer> I mean flash is like the best way to get games out there
21:42:32 <ehird> if you could deliver some flash/java/javascript related hate every day
21:42:33 <ehird> that would be just fine
21:43:12 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> in real quick time <-- quicktime movies can play in vlc at least
21:44:26 <Oranjer> it plays my downloaded movies and shows!
21:44:36 <Oranjer> yay copyright infringement
21:44:47 <AnMaster> it is just a fucking movie player
21:44:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also it is just a fucking flash player
21:45:09 <ehird> Oranjer: quicktime+perian bitch
21:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how is a flash plugin related to a standalone movie player?
21:46:01 <ehird> reading comprehension!
21:46:03 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html
21:46:04 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html
21:46:08 <Oranjer> here ya go that's all you need
21:46:12 <AnMaster> ehird, what you said made no sense
21:46:17 <ehird> i am pretty averse to clicking those links
21:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it did, you're just an idiot who can't understand context
21:47:13 <ehird> http://docs.google.com/File?id=dfd2pvnx_87f78mt7g7_b
21:47:19 <ehird> slightly less hot ghost
21:47:31 <ehird> barbershop-coloured remains of outline of ghost
21:48:07 <ehird> that is among many of the things that barbershop-coloured remains of outlines of ghosts cannot do
21:48:50 <Oranjer> those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something
21:49:13 <ehird> also they cannot drink
21:49:19 <ehird> they do not have mouths
21:49:41 <ehird> no, they do not have solidity
21:49:43 <Oranjer> like some patches and sponges full of medico
21:50:07 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something
21:50:08 <Oranjer> CAN YOU PRAY FOR THE SOUL OF A LOST GHOST
21:50:20 <ehird> yeah just give Oranjer all the credit
21:50:51 <Oranjer> I would have said "merely red dashed", but ehird set a precedent
21:51:05 <fungot> Oranjer: of rather uneven fnord quality, but to those in the ward household it was overshadowed by the odour which instantly followed it; a hideous, fnord odour which non of them had come. ahead stretched double rows of pillars, and to
21:51:17 <ehird> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1004/1424010678_52efa2603a.jpg
21:52:04 <AnMaster> ehird, err that pic makes no sense
21:52:06 <Oranjer> haha before I saw the hairpieces and wigs part I thought it was amazing that a barber could make a bald man have hair
21:52:20 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah what I just meant
21:52:37 <ehird> i was thinking that too
21:52:42 <Oranjer> you gotta go SEVERAL STEPS ahead or you will be lost
21:53:20 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html
21:53:20 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html
21:53:43 <Oranjer> mostly *to* flash developers, though
21:53:52 <Oranjer> but he talks about its potential and whatnot
21:54:24 <Oranjer> geez ehird I can't imagine what you would find interesting
21:54:39 <Oranjer> perhaps some mindless activity without any constructive results? :O
21:54:49 <ehird> esolangs, OSs, hci, concepts relating to thereof and derivatives
21:54:57 <ehird> all these things are acceptable
21:56:44 <fungot> Oranjer: fnord and inclined toward the amiable and innocuous phantasy of sir j. m. on train no. 5508, leaving bellows falls at fnord p.m. it ought, i calculated, to get up to arkham at least by the next century had become known as delapore.
22:00:43 <ehird> human-computer interaction
22:01:04 -!- immibis has joined.
22:01:28 <ehird> Oranjer: AnMaster was upset when he couldn't make kde 4 look like kde 2
22:01:34 <ehird> and they dropped an incredibly minor preference from the terminal application
22:01:44 <ehird> before a tornado engulfs this place!
22:01:56 <ehird> are you actually asking
22:02:01 <ehird> oh god i hate my life
22:02:19 <ehird> how old are you Oranjer you sure do use a lot of capital letters
22:02:19 <Oranjer> and because of your conduct, ehird, I refuse to google it
22:02:51 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah what is your age
22:02:58 * AnMaster suspects slightly older than ehird
22:03:26 <ehird> i was going to guess 30-something with mental disorder :)
22:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand you are not typical for your age
22:03:49 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:03:56 <ehird> the planet is populated with bitter 14-year-old intellectuals
22:04:00 <ehird> we're just plotting
22:04:03 <Rugxulo> ehird, how do I make the bot run a timed Befunge command?
22:04:05 <ehird> until the day comes
22:04:08 <ehird> Rugxulo: you don't
22:04:17 <ehird> to create our infernal machines
22:04:20 <ehird> of world domination, you see
22:04:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you are no longer 14 by then
22:04:31 <ehird> is where you are mistaken
22:04:35 <Rugxulo> well somebody run this and tell me how long it takes: "91+:*-:0`#@ #._"
22:04:36 <ehird> for we have stopped the aging process entirely
22:04:38 <ehird> MWAHAHIUWHAIUhiauwhiusdfghkjkl;l'
22:04:41 <Oranjer> oh hey I have heard of kde
22:05:22 <ehird> pol dns qos loga mt
22:05:25 <Rugxulo> `bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:05:46 <Oranjer> oh okay yeah it says "The developers' current stance is that the initialism no longer stands for anything specific."
22:06:31 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what was it originally?
22:06:48 <Oranjer> "XForms Common Environment"
22:07:00 <Oranjer> but the newer ones no longer use XForms, apparently
22:07:10 <Oranjer> why do flowers anger you so ehird
22:07:13 <Rugxulo> "X11 F*cks Computers Everywhere" ;-)
22:07:32 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XForms_%28toolkit%29
22:07:33 <ehird> X11 Flourishingly Craps Eggs
22:07:40 <ehird> Eggs of 80s legacy, you understand.
22:09:16 * Rugxulo coffs on ehird with an elf
22:09:22 <Oranjer> ehird, you stabbing people hardly proves you are not evil
22:09:31 <ehird> Don't do that again!
22:09:38 <ehird> A.out a.out a.out a.out AAAAAAAAA.OUT!
22:09:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you fail at references
22:09:52 <Rugxulo> wasn't there a b.out? (forgets)
22:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "coffs on ehird with an elf"
22:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: perhaps you do
22:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: COFF, ELF
22:10:27 <ehird> so hhow is b.out symbolic of not getting it at all
22:10:27 <ehird> it's just a throwaway pun
22:10:33 <Rugxulo> hmmm, guess I thought of aoutb
22:11:17 <Oranjer> but like you people just love your Unix references huh
22:11:36 <AnMaster> Oranjer, because we all *use* unix more or less
22:11:39 <ais523> many of us use Unix/Linux
22:11:52 <Rugxulo> more or less? that is the question ...
22:12:01 <ais523> after all, this is a programming channel
22:12:07 <ehird> Asztal. Deewiant. that's two off the top of my head
22:12:17 <ehird> oh, i believe lifthrasiir too, though that's vaguer
22:12:28 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway Deewiant dual-boots
22:12:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it does count
22:12:39 <ehird> because he's in it a good portion of the time
22:12:44 <ehird> oklopol also has ubuntu machines
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant uses linux most of the time nowdays iirc
22:12:59 <ehird> So, uh, maybe 51% of us use *nix
22:13:04 <ehird> But definitely not a vast majority
22:13:19 <ehird> oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though.
22:13:27 * Sgeo mostly only uses Linux when he wants to get on the web quickly
22:13:38 <Sgeo> Before I have to get ready to go to school, or some such
22:13:43 <Sgeo> Windows loads slowly
22:13:52 <ehird> Ah the simple mind of Sgeo
22:13:54 <AnMaster> Sgeo, even from suspend to disk?
22:14:08 <Rugxulo> you don't suspend to disk, you sleep/standby (or whatever they call it now)
22:14:15 <Sgeo> AnMaster, from hibernate is great
22:14:23 <Rugxulo> XP loads to GUI fast but isn't as usable right away (still has stuff to load)
22:14:25 <Sgeo> But I only started playing with that recently
22:14:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, um it is the same basically
22:14:48 <Rugxulo> no, one way keeps it in RAM, the other writes it to disk
22:15:00 <Sgeo> suspend to disk == hibernate
22:15:01 <AnMaster> HIBWHATEVER = SAME AS SUSPEND TO DISK
22:15:12 <Rugxulo> yes, but that's not the same as standby
22:15:22 <immibis> [10:13] <ehird> oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though.
22:15:30 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, you need ehird's cherry, then you won't be poppin' that Caps no mo'
22:15:48 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is supposed to be an additional ctrl
22:15:57 <AnMaster> so not sure what went wrong there
22:16:06 <Rugxulo> in Soviet Russia, Caps control YOU!!!
22:16:11 <immibis> i'm wondering how i got involved in that though...
22:16:13 <ehird> I JUST SLAMMED DOWN ON CAPS LOCK REALLY HARD
22:16:20 <ehird> immibis: listing the people who use windows in here.
22:16:28 <Rugxulo> ehird, don't bust yer cherry
22:16:38 <AnMaster> yeah we got to know who we should stalk
22:16:42 <Oranjer> ah geex I am sorry for mentioning OS's in a programming channel I will never do that again
22:16:58 <immibis> ↑ <-- what is this character?
22:17:36 * immibis hasn't been able to find a client that runs on windows, supports scripting, supports unicode, and is free
22:17:56 <AnMaster> immibis, xchat silverex edition?
22:18:01 <Rugxulo> surely one of those is scriptable
22:18:11 <immibis> xchat isn't free on windows though...
22:18:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, erc is... by definition
22:18:24 <Rugxulo> I figured as much (but never tried)
22:18:24 <ehird> chatzilla does those
22:18:24 <AnMaster> it is a free xchat for windows
22:18:41 <ehird> yes it is, nobody registers it.
22:18:46 <ehird> and it just bugs you for a few seconds
22:18:49 <Rugxulo> no, we've been over this before
22:18:57 <immibis> "Firefox prevented this site (addons.mozilla.org) from asking you to install software on your computer." <-- lol?
22:18:58 <Rugxulo> it used to be free (like ten years ago) but isn't anymore
22:19:21 <ehird> immibis: get the standalone
22:19:25 <ehird> chatzilla.rdmsoft.com or whatever
22:19:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: it just gives a nag screen
22:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a standalone chatzilla?
22:20:45 <ehird> nobody sane uses the browser plugin
22:20:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
22:20:53 <Rugxulo> HydraIRC is open source, supports DLL plugins, not sure if that qualifies as "scripting", though
22:21:14 <Rugxulo> then again, we ARE in #esoteric
22:21:22 <ais523> ehird: I used to use the browser plugin
22:21:27 <ais523> although that was rather unusual circumstances
22:21:31 <Oranjer> fungot what OS do you regularly use?
22:21:31 <fungot> Oranjer: by h. p. lovecraft and anna helen fnord
22:22:59 -!- immibis_ has joined.
22:23:13 -!- immibis has quit ("Not that there is anything wrong with that").
22:23:20 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
22:23:48 <Rugxulo> ehird knows how to make it work
22:23:53 <Rugxulo> `befunge 51*.@ > /dev/null
22:23:56 <immibis> How can I make ChatZilla auto-identify?
22:24:21 -!- ehird has quit.
22:24:24 <Oranjer> should I learn befunge huh?
22:24:36 <Rugxulo> but 98 is too much, stick to 93
22:24:46 <Oranjer> what other languages should I learn simultaneously
22:24:57 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"sey ,rejnarO">:#,_@
22:25:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what do you think that should do?
22:25:37 <Rugxulo> eventually give me a number (I know it's slow) ;-)
22:25:37 <Oranjer> it looks like APL, in that it reads from right to left
22:25:54 <AnMaster> it reads in different directions
22:25:58 <Rugxulo> but it's not read from right to left, just sometimes it's easier to push strings backwards
22:26:01 <ais523> that particular program's going left to right
22:26:06 <ais523> just the string is written backwards
22:26:08 <Rugxulo> it can read up, down, left, right
22:26:14 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it is stack based though
22:26:23 <ais523> left and right are the only ones practical on IRC, though
22:26:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I don't care about 93
22:26:43 <Deewiant> !befunge98 <@_,#! #:<"Oranjer: other way around"a
22:26:43 <EgoBot> Oranjer: other way around
22:26:47 <AnMaster> the fastest 98-implementation until fizzie gets going on jitfunge
22:26:50 <Rugxulo> yes, I know, can't compile it
22:26:56 <ais523> and that program's going right-to-left
22:26:59 <ais523> so the string is /still/ backwards
22:27:01 <madbrain> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/altparty cray democompo live stream
22:27:09 <ais523> madbrain: are you a spambot
22:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that one sure was ugly
22:27:18 <ais523> if so, why are you in /this/ channel?
22:27:20 <Oranjer> madbrain noooooooooo spam please
22:27:28 <ais523> fungot: tell madbrain that he shouldn't be here
22:27:30 <fungot> ais523: there were veiled suggestions of a monstrous fnord but could not sleep, and whilst the squat yellow foe may be creeping silently upon us. i had encountered the thing it hinted at, was more than a fraction of lord dunsany's fnord fnord blackness of the shaft.
22:27:34 <Oranjer> how does it feel to be spammed madbrain
22:27:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Something wrong? :-P
22:27:49 <ais523> Oranjer: bots don't care if they're spammed
22:27:54 <ais523> clog will just be happily recording it all
22:28:01 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't that were fizzie was too?
22:28:04 <Oranjer> I thought madbrain was a person
22:28:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Would you've preferred r #;>:#,_@; or something?
22:28:28 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty sure madbrain is *NOT* a bot
22:28:28 <ais523> hmm... madbrain claims to be on mir
22:28:44 <ais523> but liking mirc is enough of a reason to ban someone
22:28:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You don't like that fairly standard right-to-left string printer?
22:29:14 <Rugxulo> hmmm, wonder why the other query never returned :-P
22:29:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it is, you are doing it wrong
22:30:01 <AnMaster> restructure your whole program around the strings
22:30:17 <Deewiant> That's not a sufficiently esolangy way of doing it
22:30:24 <Deewiant> What is this "structure" you speak of
22:30:33 <Deewiant> Befunge does not lend itself well to structure
22:30:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, modular block design
22:30:45 <Oranjer> I am looking for video Befunge Tutorials
22:30:47 <Deewiant> Well, it kinda does, but it's just not cool that way :-P
22:31:05 <Oranjer> does anyone know a of programming-language-tutorial making program?
22:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have a hard time coding *un*structured
22:31:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any good Befunge tutorials around
22:31:43 <Deewiant> Just put what you want to do next wherever your cursor is :-P
22:31:44 <ais523> it's one of the easier esolangs, though
22:32:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I end up writing a frigging design document for all befunge programs :(
22:32:27 <Deewiant> Just put 'em at (0,0) and nearby so they're quick to access
22:32:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how to remember what one was used where?
22:32:50 <Rugxulo> Oranjer, try ZBefunge under Frotz, that's a good way to learn
22:33:05 <Oranjer> "under Frotz" what does that mean
22:33:09 <Deewiant> If you have a lot, put a comment wherever you start using them
22:33:14 <Rugxulo> interactive fiction interpreter (Z machine)
22:33:53 <Deewiant> The TOYS test in Mycology is a good example of my Befunge commenting IIRC
22:34:03 <Deewiant> It's still completely unreadable
22:34:21 <ais523> this channel can be a good place to learn until people tell you off for spamming
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22:34:38 <Rugxulo> Oranjer, take a gander at this: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=10599
22:34:45 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:34:45 <AnMaster> ais523, start thinking about feather please
22:34:56 <ais523> AnMaster: please don't, I'm busy enough as it is
22:35:00 <ais523> and more or less recovering from madness
22:35:03 <ais523> although, I have been slightly
22:35:03 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
22:35:14 <ais523> e.g. I think my problems can be solved by a #?# operators
22:35:23 <ais523> which determines if an arbitrary object is # or not
22:35:45 <Rugxulo> it's plenty interesting unless you want really weird functionality
22:35:48 <ais523> 93 is so much easier to write an interp for than 98...
22:35:49 <Rugxulo> it's meant to be fun, not serious
22:36:05 <Deewiant> ais523: 93 is /too/ easy to write an interpreter for :-P
22:36:09 <Rugxulo> 98 seems like a joke on a joke, as in "lets be UNfun"
22:36:28 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Hey, it's design by committee
22:36:30 <ais523> 98 is actually usable, 93 has too mayn aribtrary restricitons
22:36:49 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, but what have you written in 98 then?
22:36:58 <Rugxulo> anything useful or interesting?
22:37:06 <ais523> I don't use Befunge much
22:37:09 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh, a mine sweeper game. most of it. Not completely finished yet
22:37:23 <ais523> I wrote a Deadfish interp once, I forget which version of Befunge, maybe it worked in both
22:37:24 <Deewiant> Writing it is/was plenty of fun
22:38:09 <ais523> Esolang needs an article on Challenger
22:38:17 <Rugxulo> BTW, Deewiant, I suspect the official B93 interpreter only printed "0 1 " due to line buffering, it must've choked later on (obviously)
22:38:20 <ais523> that lang looks like a cross between Befunge and Sansism, atm
22:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it's mentioned behind Rugxulo's link
22:38:39 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm surprised it even gave "0 1 " if it's line buffered
22:38:42 <Rugxulo> Challenger was inspired a bit by Befunge with Tomasz's flair to it
22:38:47 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism
22:40:07 <Rugxulo> yes, he named it after the shuttle, dunno why
22:40:29 <Rugxulo> I guess he was gonna call it something related to 86 (a la 386) but '86 was the year of the crash, so ....
22:41:49 <Rugxulo> bah, if only mtve was actually here ... :-P
22:48:37 <Rugxulo> why? 'cause he's interested in Befunge, ETA, etc.
22:49:01 <Rugxulo> (my point is that he's here but not "here" here)
22:50:13 <Rugxulo> welp, if everyone is silent, guess I'll jet off
22:50:28 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
22:50:30 <ais523> hmm... this channel isn't constantly active
22:50:33 <ais523> but it's nice when it's ontopic
22:55:08 <madbrain> how do you recreate the "chess" effect, ie a complex game with emergent properties from simple rules
23:07:38 <jix> madbrain: allow many choices and long term effect of them?
23:08:55 <jix> while allowing similar choices to have similar effects in the short term? (so it is possible to detect certain patterns)
23:09:05 <jix> would be my first attempt
23:09:58 <madbrain> I think it's a problem of how non-linear the choice space is pver time
23:10:37 <madbrain> if it's too non-linear it's hard for moves to have long term consequences and it esentially becomes a sort of flip choice game at the end
23:10:58 <madbrain> if it's too linear then making each choice and the game becomes too simple
23:21:14 <oerjan> so it's sort of that chaos = border betwen order and disorder thing...
23:21:53 <fax> madbrain: that's a great question
23:22:39 <oerjan> except a little closer to order, so humans have a chance to grasp it
23:42:39 <Ilari> Just like in CA there's thin line seperating patterns that shrink from those that expand... :-)
23:44:05 * Sgeo vaguely wants to learn how to write an Operating System
23:46:06 <oerjan> Ilari: and a thin line of those CAs that have complicated behavior at your thin line, iirc
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23:55:22 <SimonRC> Sgeo: there are wikis about it
23:55:31 <SimonRC> you could start from something that already exists
23:55:32 <Sgeo> SimonRC, I'm reading OSDev right now
23:55:42 <SimonRC> e.g. a colorForth derivative
23:56:09 <SimonRC> or a retroForth derivative
00:17:34 <fizzie> The Cray stuff and the dynamic demo stuff was a bit of a disappointment; the actual alternative demo compo wasn't that bad, though. At least not everything in it.
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00:29:33 <fungot> Oranjer: i could not fnord refrain from telling what i found was only this that the horses had become utterly frightful, and i therefore read long in the dark. there is little in common between garrulous country folk and a paralytic who cannot see, hear, or speak to them it may be that he also had distinct affections amongst the other cats in other parts of the
00:44:19 <oklopol> i'm going to close my eyes now, though
00:46:28 <oerjan> -> -> <- <- -> -> -> <-<-<-
00:47:13 <oerjan> deutsche demokratische republik
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02:02:33 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
02:04:14 <oerjan> eek backwards time travel!
02:27:43 <Ilari> Just messing with time. Wonder what stories will appear in RISKS this time...
03:48:38 <Ilari> Hmm... On password hall of shame, one site is described as: "Permits only alphanumeric characters; passwords are case-insensitive; limits passwords to 20 characters". Hmm... Doesn't sound that bad to me.
03:51:23 <madbrain> that's like, the sort of limitations real people have
03:54:54 <Ilari> Entropy: ~103 bits. The strongest passwords I have had where ~59 bits...
04:00:21 <Ilari> Case-insenstive alphanum racks ~5.17 bits of entropy per symbol. Printable ASCII racks ~6.57 (~6.55 without space). Couple extra symbols make up the difference. 11 symbol alphanum case-insensitive password is stronger than 8 symbol full printable ASCII.
04:09:03 <Ilari> Heh... Unicode 5.2 adds some Egyptian Hieroglyphs..
04:14:44 <Ilari> Also lots of SAMARITAN, CANADIAN SYLLABICS, TAI THAM, VEDIC, LISU, BAMUM, JAVANESE, TAI VIET, MEETEI MAYEK, IMPERIAL ARAMAIC, OLD SOUTH ARABIAN, AVESTAN, INSCRIPTIONAL PAHLAVI, OLD TURKIC, KAITHI stuff.
04:16:00 <fungot> Asztal: you want all space eliminated, than to wait for
04:25:06 <Ilari> Why it seems that all more serious "sudden acceleration" cases involve cars with automatic transmission and start buttons?
04:26:46 <coppro> Maybe because they don't tend to have a mechanical safety mechanism to prevent the card from starting in anything but park?
04:26:59 <Ilari> (might have something to do with clutch disconnecting engine from wheels, and traditional ignition key lock being able to mechanically disconnect ignition power...)
04:27:09 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
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04:27:42 <coppro> (Interesting fact: I have a tendency to park slightly uphill, meaning I sometimes don't discover I haven't started the car until halfway out of the parking stall, wondering where the power steering went)
04:31:07 <Ilari> Reminds me of that one incident when my father parked car in quite steep downhill. He then got the idea that since there is barrier ahead that needs to be moved anyway, he's going to release the brakes and roll to that barrier without starting engine...
04:31:35 <Ilari> That didn't go very well...
04:32:10 <coppro> also, this is pretty funny, even if you don't play Magic: http://magiclampoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Thran-Generator.gif
04:32:43 <Ilari> (no brake power assist => almost no brakes).
04:35:17 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:36:20 <Ilari> Also, malfunctioning ABS can kill brakes pretty efficiently...
04:39:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:39:12 <Ilari> The standard automatic transmission interlock prevents shifting out of park without brakes being held...
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04:43:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
04:43:23 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
04:45:30 <coppro> fungot, what color is the librarian?
04:45:31 <fungot> coppro: ' what's happening?" he said.
04:46:14 <Oranjer> fungot, that's not an appropriate answer
04:46:14 <fungot> Oranjer: ' what about those?' she said.
04:46:29 <Oranjer> fungot, are all of discworld's quotes actual quotes?
04:46:31 <fungot> Oranjer: " the sea, and birds, and magical leakage, which has far too many dimensions for anyone to find their niche. they'd welcomed him, or them, rather. they seemed to think that i just used to build sweat lodges and smell like a blacksmith's armpit and drink scumble and dance around the fire with horns on and piss in the trees,
04:47:01 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: That interlock? Well, prevent that incident that gave Audi the backronym "Accelerates Under Demonic Influence": 1D10T pressing gas instead of brake until the car crashes...
04:47:49 <bsmntbombdood> people have driven cars with manual transmissions with no such interlock for ages
04:48:17 <oerjan> i thought we already established all the finns were AIs. or was that the swedes...
04:48:44 <coppro> oerjan: Probably the swedes
04:48:53 <coppro> fungot, describe the Great A'tuin
04:48:54 <fungot> coppro: " um," said carrot. " i thought perhaps the food-tasters were getting fnord and fnord
04:49:07 <coppro> hmm... Pretty sure fnord isn't discworld
04:49:10 <Oranjer> dammit all that fnord is clogging up the results
04:49:20 <Oranjer> I think fnord is just fungot
04:49:21 <fungot> Oranjer: ' they weren't real,' she said wearily.
04:50:17 <oerjan> yep, fnord is used to replace any word that only exists once in the corpus
04:50:24 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: It might also have something to do with pedal layout of that Audi...
04:59:01 <madbrain> the programming equivalent of "mu" is a page fault
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05:15:17 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Fypvj.jpg ^^Actually, this was in Gregor's Facebook stuff
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10:18:33 <fizzie> I haven't fnorded every corpus, but what oerjan said applies to most of them.
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13:23:27 * AnMaster has been reading a changelog containing lots of odd typos. Like "breath search" instead of "breadth search"
13:24:01 <oerjan> breath search is performed _entirely_ through whooshes, me thinks
13:25:19 <AnMaster> I suspect "chanhing" is meant to be "changing" though. "grphics" is probably "graphics". And "chnages" looks somewhat interesting too.
13:26:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the extra h though (if you referred to "chanhing")
13:26:38 <oklopol> yeah grphics is *probably* graphics, could be tons of other stuff too.
13:26:52 <oerjan> always grope your hics
13:26:53 <AnMaster> oerjan: "ADD: ambient sound effects (for all grphics + forest + beaches)"
13:27:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, ambient sound effects for grphics?
13:28:11 <AnMaster> oh and "goods" was typoed as "gods" in one place. Routing algorithms for gods, hm?
13:29:33 <AnMaster> even if you ignore the typos the grammar are in many entries quite awkward.
13:29:41 <oerjan> just as long as they don't route it through a hyperspace bypass
13:30:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh I think they fixed the bug where you could create a tunnel *over* water some versions ago.
13:31:58 <oerjan> that's discriminatory toward underground oceans!
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13:59:01 <Rugxulo> negative remainders ... what would be the use of that? (e.g. Befunge)
14:40:59 <Rugxulo> you ever used negative remainers?
14:41:46 <AnMaster> isn't it undefined in befunge what happens with negative arguments
14:41:57 <AnMaster> there is the fingeprint MODU with some specified variants
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15:08:20 <oklopol> what are negative remainders?
15:09:30 <Rugxulo> I guess from mod (%)'ding a negative number
15:09:58 <oklopol> i even often need mod for floating point numbers
15:10:06 <Rugxulo> I don't really know, I just noticed some remark from Jeffrey Long's fungus test suite
15:11:01 <oklopol> but (mod z) should always reduce the number between [0, z), basically find a representative for x + z*Z from that inteval... the remainder should never be negative
15:11:29 <Rugxulo> hmmm, official handles it okay, so it must be a bug in one I'm using
15:11:41 <fizzie> oklopol: That is a matter of taste, really; Scheme, for example, defines both "modulo" and "remainder", with different behaviour for negative arguments.
15:12:25 <oklopol> fizzie: haven't really seen a use case for negative remainders
15:12:47 <oklopol> i just want "reduce to interval"
15:12:55 <oklopol> well, reduce onto interval maybe
15:13:08 <oklopol> if that interval is different for negatives, well, that's just stupid
15:13:18 <oklopol> but, probably there are use cases if scheme does that
15:13:42 <oklopol> cuz, well, i hear scheme is pretty awesome
15:14:11 <fizzie> oklopol: The "remainder" is defined the way it is so that (= n1 (+ (* n2 (quotient n1 n2)) (remainder n1 n2))) is #t for every integer n1, n2 as long as n2 is not zero.
15:16:28 <oklopol> i suppose that makes sense
15:16:34 <oklopol> and modulo is the reduction thingie
15:17:20 <fizzie> Yes; (modulo n1 n2) always has the same sign as n2.
15:17:26 <oklopol> well i don't suppose that, that is the superior way; for quotient, negatives and positives should be treated symmetrically, so there needs to be a function that gives you the sensible remainder.
15:19:01 <oklopol> i hate how complicated trivial things are
15:19:22 <Rugxulo> BTW, I forget the name, but Pressey's site has a really small Scheme subset that can compile itself
15:24:07 <fizzie> I guess you mean http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/doc/pixley.html
15:24:20 <fizzie> "minimal subset of Scheme that was still expressive enough to permit writing a Pixley interpreter without too much pain"
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15:37:51 <ehird> 14:28:35 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe
15:37:52 <ehird> 14:28:44 <ais523> but liking mirc is enough of a reason to ban someone
15:37:53 <ehird> that's an uncommonly assholish and idiotic statement coming from you.
15:38:05 <ehird> the thing madbrain linked to was talked about earlier by fizzie, FYI
15:39:06 <ehird> 14:34:21 <ais523> this channel can be a good place to learn until people tell you off for spamming
15:39:06 <ehird> Preoccupied with something, are we?
15:39:55 <ehird> 14:35:23 <AnMaster> befunge93 is not interesting
15:39:55 <ehird> you is not not an idiot for saying thatt
15:41:31 <Rugxulo> there's a Befunge93 interpreter plugin for mIRC
15:41:58 <ehird> 15:55:32 <Sgeo> SimonRC, I'm reading OSDev right now
15:41:58 <ehird> i'm almost entirely sure you do not have the prerequisite knowledge.
15:43:14 <Rugxulo> there are some really really simple OSes out there, though
15:43:39 <ehird> Thanks for that. Totally irrelevant.
15:44:30 <ehird> You'd be good at word association, I see.
15:49:17 <ehird> 21:15:17 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Fypvj.jpg ^^Actually, this was in Gregor's Facebook stuff
15:49:18 <ehird> You have a stalker, Gregor!
15:50:03 <Rugxulo> it says "sale" but do they mean use?
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16:02:09 <oklopol> ehird: say one good thing about someone, right now.
16:02:26 <ehird> i like you oklopol
16:02:42 <ehird> i'm twitching now, I think it's a stroke!
16:02:48 <oklopol> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
16:03:16 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:25 <ehird> okokokokokokokokokjkokokokookkokoo
16:04:00 <ehird> okokokokokokokpkokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:04:00 <ehird> perfect apart from that p
16:04:12 <oklopol> shit, i need to go outside :<
16:04:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:04:34 <oklopol> perfect apart from nothing
16:04:57 <ehird> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
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16:30:08 <ehird> now there's something I haven't heard before (someone claiming that Apple's advertising means that anyone who considers Macs easier or smoother to use is *under a placebo effect*_
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17:25:33 <Jakepii> ehh... esoteric programming... not esoteric/occcult philosophy then... :P
17:26:01 <ehird> You worked it out without us telling you!
17:26:26 <ehird> Obviously the average person interested in the latter doesn't trust deductive reasoning enough to figure it out...
17:26:37 <Slereah> It's so much fun when they don't
17:26:40 <ehird> Slereah: I know, right? :(
17:26:46 <ehird> Jakepii: Sacrifice a goat anyway.
17:27:02 <Slereah> WE CONJURE THE SPIRITS OF COMPUTERS WITH OUR SPELLS
17:27:12 <Slereah> Isn't the cover of SICP pretty esoteric?
17:27:24 <ehird> Mystical parentheses.
17:30:05 <Jakepii> ok, but what the hell is esoteric programming?
17:30:24 <ehird> How did you figure it out from just this room?
17:30:32 <ehird> Jakepii: ever heard of brainfuck?
17:31:35 <ehird> Your silence is stunning.
17:32:05 <Jakepii> i'm just trying to figure out all your output.
17:32:22 <ehird> funny, that's what the average esolanger does.
17:32:37 <ehird> Jakepii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
17:33:16 <ehird> tl;dr a deliberately pathological programming language, intended either for our amusement or to explore new language-design ideas; often purposefully over-minimal
17:33:26 <ehird> often designed deliberately to be hard or frustrating to use
17:33:33 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/ is us. http://esolangs.org/wiki/
17:33:48 <ehird> hmm, that still redirects to the voxelperfect mirror
17:33:52 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:34:43 <Jakepii> aha ok. interesting stuff but not exactly what i'm looking for right now. Thank you all for these enlightening moments
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17:35:08 <ehird> what I love is the massive barrier between us and then
17:35:47 <ehird> esolanging is a logic-based pursuit that requires a good amount of intellect and reasoning (to make a good one, that is)
17:35:50 <ehird> or even to use one
17:36:33 <ehird> esoteryck magyck is just meaningless context-free bullshit thrown together until it seems vaguely aesthetically pleasing, then accepted as dogma until someone decides that it isn't unmeaningful enough
17:42:57 <ehird> My blinds are mown.
17:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird, they grow grass or something?
17:43:19 <ehird> I have to mow them.
17:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, cool. Where can I get some
17:43:33 <ehird> Every day, oh look at my blinds... better go blow my minds
17:43:36 <ehird> I mean mow my blinds
17:43:55 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting use of plural there :D
17:44:13 <ehird> I was just pointing out my spoonerism due to the rather high chance you didn't get it.
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17:45:37 <ehird> coppro: why'd cwalker ragequit?
17:46:46 <ehird> i like eir deregistration email
17:47:01 <AnMaster> I guess this is about some nomic?
17:47:16 <ehird> clue is in the spivak
17:48:01 <ehird> Yes, but 90% of everyone stopped giving a shit about B after they took Agora's ruleset and made it crappier.
17:48:09 <AnMaster> spivak hm... Could it possibly mean "speak" or "speech" or such? (thus refer to the non-standard words used)
17:48:23 <ehird> Michael Spivak, mathematician.
17:48:32 <ehird> In his books, used e/eir/etc pronouns for gender neutrality.
17:48:41 <ehird> Said someone else invented them, but didn't know the name.
17:48:47 <ehird> So they're Spivak pronouns.
17:49:06 <AnMaster> that story sounds familiar now that you mention it
17:49:22 <ehird> emself or eirself, who knows, nobody's said it
17:49:32 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
17:49:36 <ehird> we use spivak (original)
17:49:37 <coppro> also, rofl at BobTHJ threatening to quit over a repeal of random stuff
17:49:51 <ehird> coppro: random stuff that he helped shape, he says
17:49:54 <coppro> /almost/ makes me actually want to repeal cards
17:49:58 <ehird> surely by now you know he's an authoritarian egotist?
17:50:06 <coppro> ehird: sure. Doesn't make it unfunny
17:50:21 <ehird> my repeal proposal is better because it's more fun :(
17:50:34 <coppro> highly scammable too :D
17:50:38 <ehird> [[The original pronoun set was not created by me. I think I read about it in a newspaper clipping, perhaps from the Boston Globe, during the time I taught at Brandeis, and I believe it was credited to an anthropologist; later on, when I wanted to use it, I was unable to locate the source. In "The Joy of TeX", I wrote "Numerous approaches to this problem have been suggested, but one strikes me as particularly simple and sensible." I assumed people would figu
17:50:38 <ehird> I was using a construction I couldn't properly credit, and not consider me so immodest as to praise my own invention (though I guess that was a rather immodest assumption).]] — Spivak
17:50:47 <ehird> coppro: erm, only if you have enough friends
17:51:00 <ehird> i.e., yes, if you have a bunch of partners in crime, you can repeal a bunch of stuff... you could also use a proposal
17:51:06 <ehird> admittedly it makes it AI 1 instead of AI 2, so to speak
17:51:13 <ehird> but really, that's not a huge thing
17:51:38 <coppro> ehird: but the thing is that this rule could easily erase half of a collection of rules
17:51:45 <coppro> and leave the rest scammable
17:51:57 <ehird> but not majorly scammable, I don't think
17:52:03 <ehird> it'd be fun chaos for a bit, but the game would go on
17:52:41 <ehird> and murphy would spend hours detailing the effects of appealing various lists of rules before and after :P
17:53:54 <ehird> coppro: think it'll pass with the typo? without?
17:54:07 <ehird> i figure it'd cause people to vote against it, but i like it
17:54:14 <coppro> ehird: I'd be fine with the typo personally, and I'll vote
17:54:23 <coppro> remember to play around with Chamber
17:54:33 <ehird> ugh, i have to learn that shit?
17:54:44 <ehird> i've been practicing the policy of totally ignoring chamber card blogosphere automatics
17:55:15 <coppro> there are three Titles and three Chambers, being red, green, and purple
17:55:15 <ehird> anyway, do you think it'll haev more of a chance of passing iwth the typo? methinks so
17:55:21 <coppro> it's like rock-paper-scissors
17:55:27 <coppro> ehird: maybe. Not hugely
17:55:43 <ehird> 'cause at AI 2, this is pretty tenuous anyway
17:57:43 <coppro> ehird: distrib-u-matic?
17:57:55 <ehird> Oh yeah, we can't submit proposals freely.
17:58:13 <ehird> I guess I really did turn my mind off to Agora when it started sucking
17:58:21 <ehird> coppro: I don't even know if I have one, what're the reports titled?
17:59:04 <coppro> ehird: hang on, I have an Anarchist database right now
17:59:46 <ehird> It's like Christmas!
18:00:02 <ehird> coppro: does that elevating-as-separate-action-then-tallying-the-elevations actually work? I wouldn't be arsed to make any state
18:00:26 <ehird> elevating a rule doesn't change anything, it's a no-op action
18:00:31 <ehird> then the rule picks the rules elevated most
18:00:45 <ehird> I'm just wondering if that works or if I have to keep track of the elevations e.g. as a part of the rule
18:00:49 <ehird> because, you know, legalistic assholes
18:01:05 <coppro> Nope. Agora's platonic gamestate includes whether or not a rule has been elevated
18:01:11 <coppro> in theory nothing needs a tracker
18:01:29 <ehird> it's not whether or not it has been elevated, it's how many times :)
18:01:38 <coppro> how many times as well
18:01:45 <coppro> The game is all-knowing
18:01:54 <ehird> auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum
18:02:00 <coppro> it's just a question of whether its players are ;)
18:02:15 <coppro> incidentally, I'm about to make 10+ proposals distributable!
18:02:50 <ehird> anyway, time to make it distributable
18:03:00 <ehird> who wants to bet that ais523 will intend to make it undistributable?
18:03:02 <coppro> btw, ehird, are you active?
18:03:04 <ehird> failing that, BobTHJ?
18:03:18 <ehird> nobody deactivated me, unless it was in the 200 messages I didn't read
18:03:34 <ehird> can you submit proposals while inactive?
18:03:34 <coppro> I think I did as part of my clout win
18:04:00 <ehird> "I spend one Distribu-o-Matic to make this proposal distributable." this is the syntax right>?
18:04:17 <ehird> btw it should be Distrib-o-matic
18:04:23 <ehird> clearly someone never tried to pronounce it
18:07:51 <coppro> btw, we need more officers
18:07:55 <coppro> in particular, a Promotor would be nice
18:08:16 <ehird> Oh, I would like to have an office. But Promotor is too linked to our current broken distributability rap.
18:08:24 <ehird> And everyone distrusts me :P
18:10:08 <coppro> Distributability isn't broken right now
18:10:13 <coppro> damaged, maybe, but not broken
18:10:19 <coppro> propose to repeal it; I'll vote FOR
18:11:16 <ehird> I don't like the idea.
18:11:43 <ehird> The solution to "TOO MANY PROPOSALS AAH MY BRAIN" isn't "high barrier to using the actual nomic part of the game, and have it easy for people to stop it being distributable to boot"
18:11:52 <ehird> It's "promote more moderation"
18:12:30 <coppro> ok, then let's do that by repealing Distributability
18:13:35 <ehird> But people would take it as "ROLLLLLLLL IN THE PROPOSALS".
18:13:45 <ehird> Let's do it vai my crazy repealing proposal! :P
18:13:46 <coppro> sure, for about a week
18:14:12 <coppro> you only have 7 hours go
18:14:45 <coppro> ehird: to submit before this week's distribution comes due
18:15:04 <ehird> I don't wanna detract the focus from my crazy repealing :)
18:15:10 <ehird> Actually, I should vote for both your proposal and mine
18:15:20 <coppro> fine. I'll propose; you Distrib-u-Matic it?
18:15:22 <ehird> Although that'd result in over 50 rules being repealed
18:15:41 <ehird> I'm not too interested in individual repeal proposals right now.
18:15:44 <ehird> There's a lot more cruft in the game than just that.
18:16:09 <coppro> ehird: yes. But a lot of things (like Distributability) need to be removed with a scalpel, not an axe
18:16:25 <ehird> But the scalpel comes after! :-P
18:16:32 <coppro> we can do both at once
18:16:40 <coppro> there are some 20-odd different repeal proposals in the Pool
18:16:43 <ehird> (If my repealer gets through, you bet that the 20 repeals will shortly turn into 30 to clean everything up.)
18:17:33 <ehird> Can you transfer cards? I am an ascetic. :P
18:20:09 <coppro> I'll pay the going rate in zm if you like
18:20:21 <ehird> I don't believe in the IBA
18:21:53 <coppro> you should, it's pretty awesome
18:22:13 <ehird> Any bank based on the same basic rate-setting as the RBoA is one I won't support.
18:22:35 <coppro> what sort of rate-setting do you want?
18:22:42 <ehird> Someone should make a bank based on the PBA's ideal, considering that the final text of the PBA was, uh, free-market capitalism.
18:23:09 <ehird> coppro: based on market activity, scarcity...
18:23:34 <coppro> ehird: the IBA is in theory - or would be, if comex bothered to update it ever
18:23:52 <ehird> I guess I hallucinate those manual rate chhanges.
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18:44:08 <AnMaster> "would fig <ehird> I was" <-- your client line breaks strangely
18:44:41 <ehird> It does not account for some length, I think; the hostname, perhaps.
18:44:51 <ehird> And if you have the +/- thing enabled, obviously that adds a character.
18:45:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but that was indeed more than just one char cut off
18:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster: how small did you get that kernel?
18:51:59 <AnMaster> ehird, mine? Same as I said last time yesterday. Didn't bother to continue after that
18:53:20 <AnMaster> apperently I compiled your kernel last
18:53:33 * AnMaster runs make clean, copies his .config and runs make
18:53:47 <ehird> I'm way too lazy to make a Linux VM :(
18:54:01 <ehird> to actually compile mine
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18:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, too busy with irl stuff to actually compile your
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19:00:32 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what I'm too busy IRL to do yes
19:00:48 <ehird> Too busy to compile my.
19:00:57 <ehird> You fail at grammar, btw.
19:01:17 <ehird> "too busy with irl stuff to actually compile your" is not a sentence.
19:01:46 <AnMaster> And why should I care? It is IRC.
19:01:56 <AnMaster> And no, that is not a good reason :P
19:02:27 <ehird> The sad thing is that you probably started both of those sentences with and in some ludicrous attempt to make me mad...
19:03:35 <ehird> Wah, there were three sentences
19:03:37 <AnMaster> only remembered it by the second one :P
19:03:54 <AnMaster> ehird, good catch. But no I didn't mean that either :P
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19:35:57 <ehird> WHO IS EVEN A PERSON
19:38:50 <ehird> YOUR FACE MAKES NO SENSE
19:39:23 <Rugxulo> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR MOM SAID
19:39:51 <Rugxulo> also, don't forget to respect your elders ;-)
19:42:08 <ehird> but then I'd have to stop flinging shit at everyone in here
19:42:10 <ehird> and what would I do then
19:43:32 <SimonRC> ehird: fucking keyboards tends to break them
19:43:47 <ehird> ohh, I thought you were making a reference to mechanical keyswitches yesterday, since the same Cherry makes most of them and I'm looking for a high-quality keyboard
19:43:51 <ehird> um how did you know
19:43:55 <ehird> yes this keyboard is made by cherry
19:44:07 <ehird> wait, how do you know this?
19:44:40 <SimonRC> force and sticky liquids are bad enough on their own, never mind together
19:44:54 <ehird> why have you... thought about this, SimonRC
19:45:07 <SimonRC> it took maybe a second to do so
19:45:47 <ehird> keyboards don't even have any appropriate holes.
19:45:52 <ehird> IT IS A NONSENSICAL TOPIC
19:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, at least your mom does!
19:58:59 <ehird> It isn't even unfunny.
19:59:33 <ehird> It isn't anything.
20:00:18 * AnMaster ponders doing a "your mom" on that line, but decides not to
20:00:42 <ehird> Your mom is fat. Also a whore.
20:01:35 <Deewiant> Instead of just a plain loud snap
20:01:53 <AnMaster> like, when you can take a nap and know no one will shoot at you.
20:03:13 <ehird> Doesn't that require omniscience
20:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that is probably why it isn't very common
20:06:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:12:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:12:39 <ehird> Virtual machines are such fun.
20:15:08 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, does that 300 KiB kernel of yours boot? :)
20:16:22 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't have time to test it. Nor do I now
20:16:35 <AnMaster> and computer is turned off and in my backpack already
20:18:54 <Deewiant> Stop peeing all over the place
20:18:57 <ehird> did it really just install gnu emacs 20
20:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what was that? space space space ... [0010] ...?
20:19:06 <ehird> i'm spacing all over the place!
20:19:16 <ehird> that mastodon linux distro thing! trying with another vm
20:19:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes just showed what my client showed it as
20:20:10 <Deewiant> irssi shows it as an inverted P
20:20:21 <Deewiant> ehird emits those every now and then.
20:20:47 <SimonRC> I can't figure out how to get irssi to put arbitrary control characters into things
20:22:01 <SimonRC> hmm, ^J and ^M do the same thing
20:24:00 <SimonRC> some control chars self-insert
20:24:13 <SimonRC> some appear to self insert but do special things
20:24:19 <SimonRC> and some are emacs-like commands
20:26:33 <ehird> a society ruled by bears
20:27:36 <ehird> but mine is a pun :(
20:33:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:38:20 <oerjan> <ehird> hmm, that still redirects to the voxelperfect mirror <-- i don't think that's a mirror, just an alternative hostname?
20:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, btw can you compile recent 2.6 kernels with gcc 3.x any longer?
20:47:31 <ehird> oerjan: if you turned into a mansion, how would that affect your daily life? social?
20:47:31 <ehird> fuck, there goes my 1 GB
20:47:47 <oerjan> ehird: less restaurant visits
20:48:21 <oerjan> maybe i could invite people, should be an improvement
20:50:09 <oerjan> i think it _could_ be an improvement overall
20:51:41 -!- calamari has joined.
20:51:46 <oerjan> seems underscore is identical to underlining on this terminal
20:52:28 <oerjan> once_more _with feeling_
20:53:02 <SimonRC> irssi attempts to turn underscores into unining sometimes
20:53:19 <SimonRC> otherwise you can use ctrl-_ to turn underlining on and off
20:53:19 <ehird> oerjan: and how would your family feel about this?
20:53:19 <ehird> would you feel pressure to spend time with more house-like peers?
20:53:19 <ehird> Or perhaps just the mansionic?
20:53:19 <oerjan> yes, that's what i was testing
20:53:24 <ehird> oerjan: invite people into yourself?
20:53:26 <ehird> this is a pg-13 channel, oerjan.
20:53:28 <ehird> now back to the topic of you turning into a mansion
20:54:09 <oerjan> i guess i cannot be sure irssi doesn't use underlining for _all_ underscores
20:54:30 <ehird> ugh, connection is lagging
20:55:02 <ehird> will disconnect soon :(
20:55:29 <oerjan> hm i cannot see any difference from an underscore in a shell either
20:56:20 <oerjan> ehird: it's hard to spend time with house-like peers if you cannot move
20:57:08 <oerjan> and a mansion is isolated per definition isn't it
20:57:34 <HackEgo> * sign of the zodiac: (astrology) one of 12 equal areas into which the zodiac is divided \ * a large and imposing house \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:58:35 <oerjan> i am of course assuming i still have access to broadband... cannot make it _too_ horror-like either...
20:59:15 * SimonRC recalls a sketch parodying every makeover program at once
20:59:35 <ehird> that _was_ on topic just appeared
20:59:45 <SimonRC> they made over a 35yo bachelour into a lovely georgian mansion
20:59:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:59:50 <oerjan> although i guess there are dual mansions
21:00:41 <ehird> up to simonrc slooow
21:00:41 <ehird> did my thing about house-like peers appear when oerjan said that?
21:00:41 <ehird> cause damn, i said it ages earlier
21:01:54 <oerjan> either ehird is not responding to pings or he is horribly lagged
21:02:09 <oerjan> and if he doesn't respond to pings than he _deserves_ it *MWAHAHAHA*
21:04:41 <ehird> seems my connection has finally died..
21:05:59 <ehird> secrets about ducks
21:06:09 <SimonRC> anyone here use thunderbird?
21:07:29 <ehird> THEY ARE QUIZZICALLY LOOKING AT YOUR HOUSE
21:07:29 <ehird> (this pong may be delayed due to stupid ISPness)
21:07:29 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: ehird: no
21:07:31 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: either ehird is not responding to pings or he is horribly lagged
21:07:33 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: and if he doesn't respond to pings than he _deserves_ it *MWAHAHAHA*
21:07:35 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: *then
21:07:37 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: ehird: ping
21:07:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Yep what
21:09:05 <ehird> Tell me when you receive "20:07"; I sent it as soon as the clock hit 20:08, pretty much
21:09:05 <ehird> (Tell me as in the time)
21:09:16 <Deewiant> 2009-10-25 22:08:36 ( ehird) 20:07
21:09:34 <ehird> So we're down to sub-minute lag? (20:09)
21:09:35 <oerjan> irssi doesn't show seconds
21:09:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:09:45 <Deewiant> It does if you configure it to.
21:09:46 <SimonRC> oerjan: it does if you set the right variable
21:09:50 <oerjan> ehird: that's what my 20 seconds meant
21:10:46 <SimonRC> see "/set timestamp" for useful suggestions
21:11:33 <oerjan> well i won't, it would use up 3 chars of my precious visible left overlapped window estate
21:12:29 <SimonRC> how about removing the colons to compensate?
21:12:41 <ehird> (Received what you said at 20:09 too)
21:12:41 <ehird> [20:10] Deewiant: 2009-10-25 22:08:36 ( ehird) 20:07
21:12:58 <oerjan> how about not really caring?
21:13:24 <Deewiant> As you can see, my irssi timestamp is 20 characters, including the trailing space. :-P
21:13:25 <ehird> [20:13] oerjan: irssi doesn't show seconds
21:13:44 <oerjan> ehird: up to 4 minutes again :(
21:13:55 <oerjan> i guess it's highly fluctuating
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] Sgeo joined the chat room.
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] Deewiant: It does if you configure it to.
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] SimonRC: oerjan: it does if you set the right variable
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] oerjan: ehird: that's what my 20 seconds meant
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] SimonRC: see "/set timestamp" for useful suggestions
21:14:38 <ehird> Do what I do, have the timestamps at the right side.
21:14:40 <ehird> (Note: irssi may SUCK TOO MUCH to do this.)
21:15:32 <oerjan> ehird: won't work, i also use the timestamps to get an idea how long the channel has been silent
21:15:44 <ehird> [20:14] oerjan: how about not really caring?
21:16:04 <ehird> [20:14] Deewiant: As you can see, my irssi timestamp is 20 characters, including the trailing space. :-P
21:16:04 <ehird> [20:15] oerjan: ehird: up to 4 minutes again :(
21:16:04 <ehird> [20:15] oerjan: i guess it's highly fluctuating
21:16:34 <SimonRC> ehird: have you tried connecting to a different irc server?
21:16:36 <ehird> [20:13] ehird: Do what I do, have the timestamps at the right side.
21:16:36 <ehird> [20:13] ehird: (Note: irssi may SUCK TOO MUCH to do this.)
21:16:36 <ehird> (Sent this at 20:16)
21:16:43 <SimonRC> ehird: are you on any busy channels?
21:16:54 <ehird> [20:16] oerjan: ehird: won't work, i also use the timestamps to get an idea how long the channel has been silent
21:17:25 <ehird> [20:17] oerjan: Then put just the seconds at the right side! (Note: Seconds made up) [:34]
21:19:16 <oerjan> <SimonRC> I can't figure out how to get irssi to put arbitrary control characters into things
21:19:20 <ehird> Any connections pretend to be the Vodafone topup HTTP server, I believe.
21:19:20 <ehird> I could join #ubuntu.
21:19:21 <ehird> I can connect to Freenode.
21:19:23 <ehird> Making another connection now.
21:19:25 <ehird> Doesn't seem to work in Colloquy.
21:20:47 <oerjan> SimonRC: works in mine, i may have set it though
21:21:01 <oerjan> /bind ^V escape-char or something
21:21:25 <ehird> Oh, probably sending to the new connection lags.
21:21:45 <SimonRC> the CTCP pings to ehird are just over a minute
21:26:09 <oerjan> SimonRC: the channel still censors many control characters though. although irssi won't notice it since it echoes your own messages itself.
21:27:18 <oerjan> SimonRC: actually if by "into things" you mean things other than messages, i am not so sure what it does
21:27:33 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out).
21:27:53 <Rugxulo> I hope nobody in here runs a Geocities site
21:29:10 <Rugxulo> all free Geocities sites disappear tomorrow
21:31:07 <SimonRC> as if there weren't enough missing ones already :-(
21:32:50 -!- calamari has joined.
21:32:55 <SimonRC> google can buy them up, obviously
21:33:11 <Rugxulo> Geocities will still exist (as a Yahoo! service), but the free part won't
21:33:30 <Rugxulo> it's not like it didn't deserve to be dragged out back and shot ... but it still had some good stuff
21:33:51 <Rugxulo> and WayBack isn't exactly reliable :-/
21:33:51 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:34:14 <Rugxulo> WHERE OH WHERE HAS MY LITTLE EHIRD GONE? OH WHERE OH WHERE CAN HE BE?
21:39:49 <AnMaster> all those geocities sites I mean
21:40:28 <AnMaster> (with opt-out functionality of course)
21:40:35 <Rugxulo> first of all, I wouldn't even know how, secondly I don't think its ALL worth saving
21:41:01 <Rugxulo> thirdly, they have bandwidth limits
21:41:32 <AnMaster> on how much your browse their site?
21:41:40 <AnMaster> or on how much each site is browsed?
21:41:45 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:42:07 <AnMaster> well ok, so just run the script, and make it continue after one hour for the rest
21:42:08 <Rugxulo> IIRC, it's 5 MB per hour per site (but I could be wrong)
21:42:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, is it per ip or globally
21:50:08 <AnMaster> reading tzdata package changelog is quite fun
21:50:37 -!- ehird has joined.
21:51:52 <AnMaster> like: "Disable DST switch for Argentina tomorrow, as the Argentina government decided yesterday. Careful planning is boring."
21:53:28 <ehird> We had that in here a few days ago
21:53:30 <ehird> Maybe a week or so
21:53:38 <ehird> JFS seems awesome, incidentally, from my research!
21:53:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? Someone mentioned it already. Right
21:53:51 <AnMaster> ehird, jfs is almost as awsome as xfs yes
21:54:00 <ehird> Summary seems to be: It's like XFS, except you don't need to fear horrible death if your system crashes, and it's ever so slightly slower.
21:54:12 <ehird> Also, faster at metadata operations like creating files, etc.
21:54:18 <ehird> Also, smaller community.
21:54:29 <ehird> In conclusion: JFS roolz, XFS droolz,.
21:54:45 <ehird> Ext is soooooo orthodox.
21:55:01 <ehird> Also, if I watch one more mandatory fdisk scan, I'm going to go on a killing spree.
21:55:04 <ehird> EVEN HFS+ DOESN'T DO THAT
21:55:05 <AnMaster> also I never found xfs to be slow at metadata stuff
21:55:07 <ehird> and it's like 20 years old
21:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster: It is, in benchmarks
21:55:17 <ehird> Nothing in filesystems is slow perceptibly :P
21:55:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> Also, if I watch one more mandatory fdisk scan, I'm going to go on a killing spree.
21:55:28 <ehird> Disable them and risk my data, yes.
21:55:31 <ehird> Or use something that isn't ext.
21:56:00 <ehird> XFS loses data on crashes, yes, but JFS doesn't. :P
21:56:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it journals file data too?
21:57:09 <ehird> Both XFS and JFS are journalled.
21:57:11 <AnMaster> (unlike ext4 was in the beginning at least)
21:57:33 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:57:34 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... but what exactly is. Metadata or metadata+data?
21:57:43 <AnMaster> that is quite a large difference
21:57:44 <SimonRC> ZFS looks interesting too...
21:57:47 <ehird> I'm not sure. I believe both.
21:57:51 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes, but licensing.
21:57:54 <ehird> SimonRC: And stuff.
21:57:56 <SimonRC> It is non-mutating, I think
21:58:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and that was what the whole "ext4 can destroy your files" stuff was about
21:58:05 <ehird> JFS is usable right now, stock.
21:58:07 <SimonRC> which means you get snapshots for free
21:58:14 <Rugxulo> Apple just abandoned ZFS for Mac, so that sucks
21:58:15 <ehird> AnMaster: It was about fsync stuff.
21:58:16 <AnMaster> vs. "ext3 made developers sloppy"
21:58:20 <ehird> Rugxulo: Due to legal issues.
21:58:24 <AnMaster> ehird, yes apps not doing fsync
21:58:37 <ehird> Apple have enough cash to make a great filesystem.
21:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, which actually falls back on this on a low enough layer
21:59:07 <AnMaster> This is the default mode. All data is forced directly out to the main file system prior to its metadata being committed to the jour‐
21:59:34 <AnMaster> and you will find the right line
21:59:41 -!- calamari has joined.
22:01:08 <ehird> I should make my own Linux distro, also change my name to zzo38.
22:01:24 * ehird stares at stunning 1024x768, 64 thousand colour Linux framebuffer console booting
22:01:31 <ehird> the colours on that Linux logo make a man proud.
22:02:08 <ehird> "JFS journals metadata only, which means that metadata will remain consistent but user files may be corrupted after a crash or power loss. JFS' journaling is similar to XFS where it only journals parts of the inode."
22:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is what all high performance ones does
22:03:08 <ehird> [["It's easier said than done."
22:03:09 <ehird> ... and if you don't believe it, try proving that it's easier done than said, and you'll see that "it's easiser said that 'it's easier done than said' than it is done", which really proves that "it's easier said htan done".]]
22:03:14 <ehird> (Typed out from a VM.)
22:03:58 <AnMaster> I should install fortune maybe
22:04:07 <ehird> Slackware+xfce: Putting the floppy drive on the desktop since 2009.
22:04:24 <ehird> (Immediately, all 3 users of floppy disks pipe up with a complaint.)
22:04:37 <AnMaster> hm does it really fit onto a floppy?
22:04:47 <ehird> It fits on something like 6 CDs.
22:04:58 * ehird is using Slackware in a VM, except he only had the first two disk ISOs, so it's the first two disks of slackware
22:05:02 <ehird> It runs XFCE just fine!
22:05:14 <ehird> AnMaster: DOESN'T COUNT FOR THE GAME
22:05:18 <ehird> Although I do wonder if uclinux is usable on a desktop
22:05:25 <ehird> Anyway, at least my distro wouldn't be cookie-cutter!
22:05:34 <ehird> No kernel modules, no dynamic linking!
22:05:42 <ehird> No hideously convoluted filesystem structure!
22:06:28 <ehird> (JFS by default? :P)
22:06:35 <ehird> (No swap by default!)
22:07:55 -!- immibis has joined.
22:08:58 <ehird> uClinux is a kernel, yes.
22:09:05 <ehird> But can it boot desktops?
22:09:34 <ehird> "The main design goal of JFS was to provide fast crash recovery for large filesystems, avoiding the long filesystem check (fsck) times of older Unix filesystems."
22:09:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Modern desktop.
22:09:51 <ehird> Bog-standard modern peripherals.
22:09:55 <ehird> (uClinux still has an MMU if you want it, right?)
22:10:04 <AnMaster> ehird, mmu is optional I think
22:10:23 <ehird> AnMaster: re JFS safety lag time:
22:10:27 <ehird> "X window system with KDE, GIMP, Nvu, and text editor all with open files, plus a shell script that inserted records into a MySQL (ISAM) table. The script I wrote was an infinite loop, and I let it run for a couple of minutes to make sure some records were flushed to disk."
22:10:30 <ehird> "About 3 seconds to replay the journal log. All open files intact, database intact with a few thousand records inserted, but the timestamp on the table file had been rolled back one minute."
22:10:48 <ehird> (2 seconds for both console+text editor with 1 file, X+KDE+GIMP+Nvu+editor in xterm, all with open files)
22:10:52 <ehird> About 2 seconds to replay the journal log. Changes I had not saved in the editor were missing but the file was intact.
22:10:57 <ehird> and the other X: About 2 seconds to replay the journal log. All open files were intact, unsaved changes were missing.
22:11:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember that even ext doesn't recover all that stuff with its years-long fscking.
22:11:49 <ehird> So 3 seconds to recover all of that, and be a much, much faster filesystem than ext*... impressive.
22:13:45 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
22:14:22 <ehird> Hmm, apparently you can't shrink JFS partitions, just grow them.
22:14:53 <ehird> Oh, but someone made a tool to shrink them, apparently.
22:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, ext doesn't recover by fsck
22:15:23 <AnMaster> actual journal recovery is quite fast
22:15:32 <ehird> Well, yes, but that 3 second figure is for JFS's actual fsck.
22:15:34 <AnMaster> it is just it fscks every n mounts
22:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like it didn't do a throughout job :P
22:16:19 <ehird> Have your ext fscks ever done anything more? A well-designed filesystem doesn't mean a cheating filesysteem.
22:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well it never detected any errors
22:18:02 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers.").
22:18:11 <AnMaster> so it is just like we say in Sweden "bälte och hängslen"
22:18:20 -!- immibis has joined.
22:18:21 * AnMaster looks for a translation for the third word
22:19:02 <AnMaster> so it means "belt and suspenders"
22:19:37 <immibis> <off-topic> how can I make ChatZilla auto-identify?
22:19:46 <ehird> immibis: Set a server password.
22:19:48 <ehird> Works for Freenode.
22:19:53 <ehird> Otherwise, set up a command to be run on connect.
22:20:49 <immibis> okay...but I can't find where to set a server password
22:22:10 <ehird> immibis: Oh, and you can disable the obnoxious show-highlights-in-the-server-tab thing, too.
22:25:53 <ehird> It seems that Slackware includes only the vital packages on the first two disks — you know, like both vim and emacs.
22:26:22 <ehird> Oh, and both Firefox and Seamonkey.
22:29:47 <SimonRC> vim and emacs are tiny compared to some apps
22:30:12 <ehird> Yes, but including both Firefox AND Seamonkey?
22:30:29 <AnMaster> ehird, heh. what the hell is on the rest of those disks then?
22:30:40 <ehird> Blackjack and hookers?
22:30:54 <ehird> (An office suite of some sort?)
22:31:51 <ehird> Annoying how xfce only includes tools to configure itself, not the system.
22:33:56 <ehird> It doesn't seem to want to talk to my network.
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? just use ifconfig or whatever
22:36:06 <AnMaster> and what about the text config files
22:36:31 <ehird> See, the nice thing about Gnome is that I don't have to fuck around with that bullshit.
22:36:39 <ehird> (Says the person playing with Slackware.)
22:37:17 <ehird> Also, ifconfig just gives lo.
22:38:52 <AnMaster> to show all possible interfaces
22:39:09 <ehird> True, that gives an eth0.
22:39:23 <ehird> ifconfig eth0 up, no luck.
22:39:27 <ehird> It works, but Firefox doesn't load.
22:40:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how does slackware normally config the network?
22:40:49 <ehird> Trivial stuff that there's NO REASON THAT I HAVE TO DO.
22:41:14 <ehird> You know, busywork. Automatable manual labour. i.e., what computers were DESIGNED TO AVOID.
22:42:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hey if you selected slackware you have to bite the bullet
22:42:28 <ehird> That's why it's in a VM and not my disk.
22:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well then. Stop complaining
22:42:45 <ehird> You're the one who's replying.
22:43:48 <AnMaster> ehird, thats what your mom said.
22:45:32 <AnMaster> what the hell is it with you and keyboards.
22:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: No, just the nail.
22:45:53 <ehird> Wonder if JFS2 was ported to Linux.
22:49:55 <ehird> I wonder why people stopped using lilo.
22:50:48 <AnMaster> ehird, um, because it was a lot of work to remember to rerun lilo every time you updated the kernel?
22:50:55 <AnMaster> and it was a bit awkward to use
22:51:08 <ehird> Um, GRUB has to be run too. And how so?
22:51:23 <ehird> /etc/ilo.conf seems just as simple as grub.conf to me.
22:52:15 <AnMaster> and how did you edit command line arguments for lilo from the prompt? You know, for when things went wrong
22:52:19 <ehird> Well, at least, I'm pretty sure Ubuntu does that. Anyway, that's silly; it's one line in the package manager to do it.
22:52:29 <ehird> Also, not sure. I'd have to look it up.
22:53:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://lwn.net/Articles/89772/ is interesting
22:53:36 <ehird> It just seems to me that lilo is a lot simpler than GRUB, and it isn't in "ONLY BUG FIXES LOL USE OUR MASTURBATORY GRUB 2 CRAP" mode like GRUB 1 is.
22:54:57 <ehird> "GRUB has a more powerful, interactive command line interface." // silly bloat that doesn't belong in a bootloader
22:55:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so... you hate freebsd bootloader then?
22:55:14 <ehird> "LILO stores information about the location of the kernel or other operating system on the Master Boot Record" // simple, as it should be. the distro should obviously automatically update lilo on kernel upgrades
22:55:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Did I say that?
22:55:27 <ehird> I just said that that feature is silly bloat that doesn't belong in a bootloader.
22:55:57 <ehird> "a mis-configured LILO configuration file may leave the system unbootable"
22:55:58 <ehird> Why are you changing the lilo configuration yourself without double-checking it works? This is just carelessness. It's easy to break GRUB too.
22:56:21 <ehird> "Unlike LILO, GRUB has a web site."
22:56:21 <ehird> Ooh, GRUB has its useless website! I hereby swear off LILO forever.
22:56:31 <ehird> Not a very convincing article.
22:56:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't argue for grub or lilo myself
22:56:49 <pikhq> LAWL WHY DONT WE JUST COMPILE EVERYTHING IN. CONFIG FILES ARE T3H SUCK.
22:57:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot").
22:57:02 <ehird> pikhq: You will note that I said none of that.
22:57:11 <ehird> Or anything for similar idiocy.
22:57:25 <ehird> I'm just saying that if you put stuff in the bootloader configuration file — yes! You may break your bootloader.
22:57:28 <AnMaster> I actually think that "broken menu.lst is possible to work around" is quite an useful feature
22:57:33 <ehird> "I, personally, believe that [both are] a grave injustice, because the boot loader is the most important software of all. I used to refer to the above systems as either 'LILO' or 'GRUB' systems."
22:57:46 <ehird> ("So, if you ever hear people talking about their alleged 'GNU' systems, remember that they are actually paying homage to the best boot loader around: GRUB!")
22:57:50 <ehird> Pretty sure it's joking.
22:57:56 <pikhq> ... Boot loader, must important? That's fucking retarded.
22:58:00 <ehird> If it's not, that's some pretty unprecedented hubris.
22:58:08 <ehird> pikhq: The whole quote seems to be a joke:
22:58:09 <ehird> Some people like to acknowledge both the operating system and kernel when they talk about their computers, so they might say they use 'GNU/Linux' or 'GNU/Hurd'. Other people seem to think that the kernel is the most important part of the system, so they like to call their GNU operating systems 'Linux systems'. I, personally, believe that [both are] a grave injustice, because the boot loader is the most important software of all. I used to refer to the above
22:58:11 <ehird> systems as either 'LILO' or 'GRUB' systems. Unfortunately, nobody ever understood what I was talking about; now I just use the word 'GNU' as a pseudonym for GRUB. So, if you ever hear people talking about their alleged 'GNU' systems, remember that they are actually paying homage to the best boot loader around: GRUB!
22:58:32 <ehird> Booting Linux is, what, 100 lines of code? :P
22:59:55 <ehird> "The -R command line option is also very useful when you have a dual boot system, for quick shutdown from one system (e.g. Linux) to reboot into another (e.g. Windows) without the timed out delay waiting for the user to select which system to boot."
22:59:58 <ehird> Ooh, that's a nice lilo thing.
23:00:07 <ehird> Could make a desktop icon for the other OS.
23:00:22 <ehird> Just have it elevate to root with a graphical thingummie, do the LILO -R, and reboot.
23:00:41 <ehird> Apparently there's a patch for GRUB, and it might have got in since 2004, I guess.
23:02:07 <AnMaster> ehird, is it really that useful? 3 second delay?
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23:02:27 <ehird> It's good to have.
23:02:34 <ehird> Sure, if you just have Linux and Windows it doesn't matter too much..
23:02:40 <ehird> But some people have 4, 5 OSs.
23:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I would say eye-candy because it isn't exactly that. But similar
23:02:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. I want such a large harddrive :P
23:03:00 <ehird> For one, people use it for unattented kernel upgrades on servers.
23:03:05 <ehird> In the comments of that article.
23:03:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a better way for that in grub. Fallback kernel. And if the new kernel reboots it will fall back on the old if you haven't manually set it to the newer one
23:03:49 <ehird> So it's a command with a minor practical use for users with quite a few OSs, major practical use for server administrators, requires little code, doesn't bother those who don't need it, and has little opportunity for failure.
23:03:51 <ehird> So what's the problem?
23:03:57 <immibis> ehird, on grub if you have a messed up configuration that stops you booting, you can boot linux manually from the grub command prompt
23:04:00 <ehird> AnMaster: And lilo's is more general andd simpler.
23:04:16 <ehird> immibis: I know that, and it's silly.
23:04:38 <ehird> First, lilo balks if your configuration file is invalid when you run it. Secondly, don't put stuff in the configuration file unless you double-check it first. Failing that, just pop in a live USB stick.
23:04:44 <ehird> I mean, sure, minor usage, but still.
23:04:46 <ehird> It's not a huge thing.
23:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is so much *better* with lilo than grub?
23:05:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compiling in configuration to the bootloader? :P
23:06:00 <ehird> More minimalist, doesn't have the creaky default behaviour of put-stuff-in-unallocated-sectors that GRUB does, is simple, is not in GRUB's ridiculous "bug-fix only mode because we have a new child and its name is GRUB 2".
23:06:20 <ehird> ("More minimalist, […] is simple" Guess I'm not a minimalist!)
23:06:36 <ehird> Also, it can boot LVM partitions, from what I gather.
23:06:39 <AnMaster> "is not in GRUB's ridiculous "bug-fix only mode because we have a new child and its name is GRUB 2"" <-- so someone actually adds new features to lilo?
23:06:49 <ehird> So you don't need a regular /boot partition.
23:07:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know, but the GRUB maintainers clearly don't like maintaining GRUB 1.
23:07:25 <ehird> LILO's last release was in 2007, so it's not really that dead.
23:07:26 <ehird> (That is quite a while, but it *has* been in development since 19992.)
23:07:45 <ehird> They should just release every year changing the copyright date if they don't have any meaningful changes to make.
23:07:51 <AnMaster> and booting lvm is nice. What if the lvm partition with the kernel moves around?
23:08:05 <AnMaster> or the kernel ends up split over multiple disks
23:08:18 <ehird> Read the manual or whatever.
23:10:00 <SimonRC> ehird: why are you comparing lilo to grub 1? why not compare lilo to grub 2?
23:10:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: With Lilo, shit breaks.
23:10:20 <pikhq> Even if the device number happens to change.
23:10:37 <ehird> With GRUB, mu, because it can't do LVM.
23:10:38 <SimonRC> in my limited experience, grub 2 just automatically detects all the kernels and writes the config file I want
23:10:43 <ehird> SimonRC: because nobody uses grub 2.
23:11:04 <pikhq> With GRUB 2, it groks LVM.
23:12:30 <SimonRC> oddly this debian despite being a product of 2009 doesn't use GUIDs for mounting stuff
23:14:01 <AnMaster> SimonRC, great. Because I had to change that on my ubuntu laptop. UUIDs break with encrypted root + crypttab
23:14:57 <SimonRC> but it can be hard to know what the kernel is going to call a partition in situations in which you can't boot the kernel
23:15:16 <SimonRC> actually, there might be enough stuff in the initrd to find out
23:15:39 <SimonRC> the initrd is rather neat; it even has an editor in it
23:15:55 <SimonRC> back in the day it would have counted as a well-equipped unix system
23:16:10 <SimonRC> except for lack of compiler I suppose
23:20:13 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initrd
23:24:32 <ehird> grub 2 is even more bloated :)
23:24:36 <ehird> and is the developers' plaything
23:25:00 <ehird> you like unstable, bloated software?
23:25:31 <ehird> i really hate using windows 3.0 as a main OS
23:25:50 <ehird> "Real memory management, to make GNU GRUB more extensible."
23:25:54 <ehird> GRUB 2: Now with memory management.
23:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh but you hate me agreeing with you
23:26:09 <AnMaster> so. Thus I agree windows 3.0 is painful
23:26:10 <ehird> "Graphical interface."
23:26:19 <ehird> GRUB 2: Please, spend all your time in me.
23:26:26 <ehird> You don't want to boot those OSs. I have everything they have!
23:26:30 <ehird> "Scripting support, such as conditionals, loops, variables and functions."
23:26:54 <ehird> Now! Use an AI to decide which OS to boot!
23:26:54 <ehird> It's the feature you've all asked for!
23:27:00 <ehird> In conclusion: lol grub 2 suxz
23:27:30 <SimonRC> are those things really downsides?
23:27:39 <ehird> Bloat is a downside.
23:27:49 <AnMaster> ehird, then freebsd bootloader is bloated
23:27:51 <SimonRC> does it actually matter on modern machines?
23:27:52 <ehird> The fact that what I quoted constitutes a large part of GRUB 2's feature list means that they aren't spending time on important things
23:27:57 <ehird> LIKE ACTUALLY MAKING A DECENT BOOTLOADER
23:28:23 <SimonRC> what dose it not do that you want it to?
23:28:24 <ehird> AnMaster: That may be so.
23:29:12 <ehird> Why is it better than LILO? Does it add anything useful over it? The thing that's been mentioned is LVM support, i.e. bringing it in line with LILO.
23:29:29 <ehird> And bloat is definitely a downside, so that's a point against it.
23:29:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I find that the "possible to recover from error" to be a pretty good reason.
23:30:10 <ehird> SimonRC is specifically telling me to do LILO vs grub2.
23:30:25 <ehird> Yes, that is one advantage of grub 1, however, IMO, it is not a big one, and LILO has other points in its favour.
23:30:35 <SimonRC> does lilo automatically get informed when you install a new kernel, so it gets used on next reboot?
23:30:44 <ehird> But GRUB 2? GRUB 1, plus bloat, plus LVM support, which lilo has.
23:30:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I have argued against that. But sure, give that point to GRUB 1.
23:31:05 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes, if your package manager tells it afterwards.
23:31:14 <ehird> Oh, it doesn't? Sounds like your distro is populated by GRUB users.
23:31:23 <AnMaster> like when kernel ended up seeing it has hd0,0 but grub as hd1,0. Easy to recover. Oh and I tried lilo back then too. It ended up with same issue
23:31:25 <ehird> It's not really fair to lilo that the distros don't do it.
23:31:32 <AnMaster> it was "is pata or sata disk hd0"
23:32:20 <SimonRC> well, my experience is that I install grub 2 and it just works (here)
23:32:30 <SimonRC> I lack the knowlege to say much more
23:32:53 <SimonRC> (mwahaha disarm the opponent with false humility, making him look bad)
23:33:04 <SimonRC> oops did I actually type that?
23:33:06 <ehird> ignorance is not the same as humility :P
23:33:16 <ehird> With a distro that supports calling it automatically (probably not many nowadays), and not putting random stupid shit into the config file, lilo should just work too.
23:33:49 <SimonRC> I forget who was on the lilo side
23:34:31 <ehird> Everyone uses GRUB 1, dude. :P
23:34:33 <ehird> Also, I'm on the lilo side.
23:35:04 <ehird> I just realised that I was all boo, lilo is old and crufty, yay, GRUB is awesome and then I realised that GRUB had some points I don't like about it and I couldn't actually reason why GRUB was better, so I investigated.
23:35:16 <ehird> And it turns out that lilo might actually be better, so yeah. It's just me investigating common dogma.
23:37:29 <ehird> elilo is just lilo for EFI./
23:37:37 <ehird> It's basically the only native EFI loader.
23:37:51 <ehird> Funny, though, to have the bloated GRUB2-ish EFI boot into the minimalist lilo.
23:39:06 <AnMaster> ehird, can't grub2 handle EFI iirc?
23:47:35 <ehird> RIP SimonRC ????—2009
23:59:52 <ehird> you're still here, AnMaster
00:00:23 <AnMaster> yes, was saying night in another channel too. Now I set /away and am going to bed. Cya tomorrow
00:11:26 <ehird> Say, when will geocities be erased?
00:16:26 <ehird> It's going tomorrow.
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00:32:59 <ehird> Holy shit i7s are a lot cheaper now.
00:33:41 <ehird> (Quad-Core) 2.8 GHz 95 W i7-860 for $289.99... the older 920 was the same price (well, $1 cheaper) and only 2.66, plus it used 130 W.
00:34:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Intel are laughing at you
00:35:36 <ehird> Hey, with Geocities closing, Agora will have outlived it.
00:35:47 <ehird> (Geocities is merely 15; Agora is 16.)
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01:05:05 <fizzie> I do grub2 nowadays (well, 1.97~beta4-1, says the package version), because Debian-unstable's "grub" package went and changed to that (with a pretty reasonable "we first chainload from grub1 so if it doesn't work your system isn't completely hosed" upgrade path), and I like playing with things, and it does seem to work just fine, despite any bloatsy.
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01:07:32 <fizzie> Can't say I care terribly much about the boot loader since, like you sort-of implied, it's not like you spend a lot of time in it; so since it does what I want, I can't really see why to deviate from the distro-default choice.
01:08:14 <ehird> I was more investigating it as a distro-maker.
01:27:47 <Ilari> Wonder where people have gotten impression that secure password absolutely requires non-alphanumeric characters and case-sensitivity...
01:28:12 <lament> it's just a good way to enforce non-dictionary passwords
01:28:13 <ehird> You can only use 0 and 1 in your password.
01:28:25 <ehird> It's not good, it's annoying
01:28:26 <augur> all passwords are binary!
01:28:31 <ehird> What about people who use DiceWare
01:28:38 <ehird> somephrasespiledtogetheralotofthem
01:28:55 <augur> with convenient shorthand for all 8-bit-long chunks :P
01:29:24 <pikhq> Just state that the password must have a certain amount of entropy.
01:29:54 <augur> thatd be an interesting measure of a passwords acceptability
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01:32:29 <Ilari> Have classes of characters, any character of that class causes entiere class to be added to base set size. Then compute log2 of base set size and multiply by password length?
01:34:18 <Ilari> Urgh... IDE error 51/54 on hdc (CD drive)... Looks like bad burn...
01:40:15 <Ilari> But all files on that disk seem to read properly without any I/O errors...
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01:41:13 <zzo38> I have thinking about a computer pinball game that uses Forth and a few other things about it. It would have three scripts with Forth codes, one is te "hardware" script which defines the physical layout of the table and which are connected to what, the "software" script (which can include the hardware script with various words meaning different things now) which is like the CPU of the pinball table, and the "extra" script which defines things
01:41:22 <zzo38> :And then once sounds and decals images are added, you put everything together in one ZIP file. The compilations options is for giving names and default values of options that can be set by the user, and those values are then set as constants when the other scripts are being compiled.
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03:15:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:16:01 <fungot> Oranjer: i have very great difficulty under this point :) view, that/ elements that go to/ head by a cliff :)/ 245-255 feet plain, and :) which i have ever received.
03:18:42 <coppro> fungot appears to have been writing a poem!
03:18:43 <fungot> coppro: my dear huxley
03:19:05 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
03:19:15 <coppro> fungot, what is a Great Old One?
03:19:17 <fungot> coppro: i have said, i had little difficulty in finding my way to the university fnord, picking up a paper from the next opening in the same inexplicable rhythm, while nimbuses of unclassifiable light resembling that of the modern blackfellows, wherein the high-priests dwelt with a magnificence scarce less than that which all the foreigners and the superstitious old folk feared. mazurewicz came home at six o'clock and said peop
03:19:35 <fungot> oppro: published june 1936 in astounding stories, vol. 29, no. 1, p. fnord
03:19:52 <coppro> didn't get a response to that
03:19:56 <fungot> coppro: " s'pose one night ye seed somethin' heavy heaved offen obed's dory beyond the reef' and then learned next day a very troublesome situation was created by the fnord of
03:20:29 <Oranjer> he has captured the voice of a veteran shark hunter
03:23:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:23:15 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
03:23:49 <Oranjer> fungot, tell me of the jabberwocky
03:23:50 <fungot> Oranjer: one thing was certain, that the ridiculous idea crossed my mind that it was really touching to hear the melancholy tone in which she said ' i never expected i should be dumb, and full fnord fnord, how fnord thou of yt? yt fnord bytte of rhyme.
03:26:22 <Oranjer> fungot, that doesn't make any SENSE
03:26:23 <fungot> Oranjer: they take me a walk: though tired and stiff, to climb the heights i madly fnord and, now i come to think of it, as the poor little creature. " i know what ' sin' means," said the little lady in my arms, than it would have been dreadful, always supposing that fairies can be walked over my own belief is that they are something of the feeling of one who has crossed a street, and has had a bad dream. put him to bed at once
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03:43:29 <fungot> immibis: fnord. no nightmare is pleasant; unpleasant fnord are not anxiously desired. having once decided on his quarters, it needed only a second or two for him to run up the stem like a tiny fnord of fnord!"
03:43:56 <immibis> fungot, an fnord is an unpleasant nightmare which is not anxiously desired and runs up stems?
03:43:57 <fungot> immibis: the next best solution, it seemed impossible!" he exclaimed. " he measures time quite as fnord as the years glide away." yet knew not what: like shaft from bow at random shot, he spoke, ' there's only one day at a time.'
03:44:23 <Oranjer> ah geez that is some beautiful prose
03:44:46 <Oranjer> "yet knew not what: like shaft from bow at random shot, he spoke, "there's only one day at a time."
03:45:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice* c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:45:46 <fungot> immibis: " and how was the fnord of my fnord! and nothing could be sweeter than my temper, till the proper time came for fnord it, of the whole invention. all the while and fighting for the crown, which the driver was carrying into the shop, one by one.
03:45:52 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
03:46:02 <Oranjer> can we combine styles I want to
03:46:19 <Oranjer> ^style lovecraft alice discworld
03:46:45 <Oranjer> ^style discworld,lovecraft
03:46:57 <oerjan> i am pretty sure you cannot
03:47:15 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
03:47:16 <fungot> fax: " you were a person at all but after two hundred years!'
03:47:16 <oerjan> the files for each style are precomputed
03:47:26 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
03:47:26 <fungot> fax: ' let's get out of here,' said vimes. " got change of a dollar was gaining the upper hand. there was nothing but the taste of...
03:47:31 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
03:47:32 <fungot> fax: " business district somewhere," said brutha. " i don't even know if he's really good because he'll come out. believe me.
03:48:03 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
03:48:15 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
03:48:15 <fungot> fax: i quoted the stanza!
03:48:17 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
03:48:35 <Oranjer> stop saying the "fungot," at the beginning, it does not register!
03:48:36 <fungot> Oranjer: ' i shouldn't know you again if we did meet,' humpty dumpty interrupted impatiently. ' what does it live on?' alice enquired.
03:48:48 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
03:48:48 <fungot> fax: " ' i fear,' said alice; ' but if they do come, i strove to prove the matter true by putting everything i knew into an axiom:
03:50:18 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you think of Jorge Luis Borges?
03:50:19 <fungot> Oranjer: i told him, as if it wasn't trouble enough fnord the eggs," said the king, and the professor fnord replied, as he stood and fnord his wife may at their pleasure assume fnord' before, with a strange look in his eyes. " most orators are born, you know."
04:01:20 <ehird> [02:19] coppro: peop
04:01:21 <ehird> [02:19] fungot: •oppro: published june 1936 in astounding stories, vol. 29, no. 1, p. fnord incompatible encoding
04:01:21 <fungot> ehird: altogether, a most unsatisfactory pair of premisses!
04:12:24 * coppro is going to try and make a fnord-compatible encoding
04:13:15 <ehird> coppro did not say its name
04:13:18 <fax> so we should mollycoddle n00bs and wrap them up in cotton wool?
04:13:23 <ehird> and fungot said "•oppro"
04:13:24 <fungot> ehird: " where shall we look?" said lady muriel, we moved on in silence till the sound of the " o" in " borogoves" is pronounced like the " o" in " worry". such is human fnord.
04:13:25 <ehird> which is not coppro
04:13:28 <ehird> fax: reddit-reader.
04:13:46 <ehird> coppro: so yeah, wtf?
04:13:54 <fungot> coppro: ' fnord and sawdust,' said the guard, putting his hands to his mouth in the shape of a horse's head), and, burning with curiosity, she ran against it before she could stop herself.
04:14:13 <ehird> [02:19] coppro: peop
04:14:13 <ehird> [02:19] fungot: •oppro: published june 1936 in astounding stories, vol. 29, no. 1, p. fnord incompatible encoding
04:14:14 <fungot> ehird: ' that's all,' said alice; ' but if you hadn't done them,' said alice.
04:14:17 <fungot> ehird: " well, since you ask the question!" i hastily interrupted him. " and this is bruno. it doesn't take long. he's only got one eye open!" roared the queen.
04:14:26 <fungot> coppro: " i think the best way will be for you to carry when you're fairies, you know. that would be all the rest were grouped in twos and threes, then ten or twenty together, and fnord
04:16:18 <fungot> Oranjer: and that these two, when fnord, give us a ' ap'ny!" the fair fnord exclaimed with enthusiasm.
04:17:25 <oerjan> well fungot's previous message got cut off there
04:17:26 <fungot> oerjan: " for fifteen years," said sylvie. " it's going fnord i may so express myself." then they both bowed low and their curls got entangled together. she made out the words, several times over, with a slender gold chain attached to it.
04:17:36 <oerjan> maybe the cutting off is also needed...
04:17:53 <ehird> fungot: cut off you bitch ass
04:17:53 <fungot> ehird: ' does that kind go smoothly?' the white queen sitting on the other set. of course we'll have the coach-and-four out, at the top of the little frog, and looking rather fnord. sugar is sweet; salt is not sweet.
04:17:56 <ehird> fungot: cut off you bitch ass
04:17:56 <fungot> ehird: they sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care; you may hunt it with forks and hope; they threatened its life with a railway-share; you may charm it with smiles and soap!"
04:17:58 <ehird> fungot: cut off you bitch ass
04:17:58 <fungot> ehird: ' you don't know how hard they fnord of them helping the poor old man!"
04:17:59 <ehird> fungot: cut off you bitch ass
04:17:59 <fungot> ehird: ' you will observe the rules of battle, that alice could hardly hear what they said.
04:18:00 <ehird> fungot: cut off you bitch ass
04:18:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice* c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
04:18:07 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
04:18:13 <ehird> fungot: i am ready for some lovecraft pimping
04:18:17 <ehird> someone else say fungot
04:18:55 <Oranjer> fungot, cut off your last word, please
04:18:57 <fungot> Oranjer: nerves on edge, and it looks nothing at all like the look of that moving column. it fnord that deep flights of onyx steps go down to business since the shock of my mother's demise had visibly affected my father. i think that the professor, too fnord to keep silent and solitary.
04:19:02 <ehird> fungot: i am ready for some lovecraft pimping
04:19:03 <fungot> ehird: mental projections down the ages from an ineffable antiquity human or pre-human whose knowledge of the dark, olden years of the province. nor was i pleased by mr. fnord dexter of ye bay in fnord oute uncommon things and fnord to band together, and believed that charles or allen had merely unearthed an fnord counterpart perhaps one who had taken a good priest to fnord what had come had left no trace, not even trying to di
04:19:34 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
04:19:36 <fungot> fax: fnord o'malley tells of devil-worship with box found in the cottage, two abreast, as if curwen were extorting some sort of secret and fnord action. curwen, a man he had known in myriad other dreams. there it still stood on the altar in the ancient family of de la fnord that throb down in the mud. but mind ye, luther he didn't see nothin' at all, or even ourselves, of anything definite. we had replaced the tarpaulin over po
04:19:58 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
04:19:59 <fungot> fax: so when carter bade that old grey chief of the cats also told him where to look, and once
04:20:07 <ehird> it ignores your command
04:20:09 <ehird> if you don't have ^
04:20:12 <ehird> as the first character
04:20:19 <fax> ^fungot, ^style alice
04:20:28 <ehird> stop being purposefully idiotic
04:20:30 <ehird> you need the command first
04:20:34 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
04:20:35 <fungot> fax: of course it was the wild thunder of the mountain slopes adjoining the apertures seemed invariably smooth and fnord and knows just how to leave a place where the roof had wholly caved in. the debris rose like a mountain, for only in the basements and cellars was there much saving of life, both of these tales owe their supreme magic to the cunning development which appears in the selection and collocation of every least inc
04:20:38 <ehird> ^, command, newline
04:20:50 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
04:20:50 <fungot> Oranjer: but he was good for fnord fnord is a kind of folk who have no horror of a joke. i wish you were not quite so fnord i've had to ask you to recall how tenderly i fnord!"
04:21:07 <oerjan> fax: if you cannot grasp a simple command format from observation we'll have to cancel your membership
04:21:17 <ehird> i think he's trolling
04:21:32 <Oranjer> cut your membership card in half
04:21:40 <fax> oejan I figured out hte format: ^, command, newline
04:21:58 <Oranjer> heheheahahahehehehahahehgaheahasdfGAH
04:22:01 <ehird> but we told you that earlier
04:22:05 <ehird> Oranjer: stop laughing all the time
04:22:11 <fax> turned Oranjer into a squid
04:22:22 <Oranjer> remember, as fungot said, sugar is sweet, salt is not sweet
04:22:23 <fungot> Oranjer: fnord. fnord sometimes fnord all animals sometimes sleep."
04:22:45 <Oranjer> "all animals sometimes sleep"
04:23:02 <fax> all animals sometimes sleep in a simply conservative extention of PA
04:23:57 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:23:57 <fungot> fax: the earl nodded. " of course you wouldn't have two fnord in one dinner?' alice asked with some curiosity. " i quite lost my heart to her!" said the professor," i said.
04:25:17 <Oranjer> fungot, what's your opinion on...EVOLUTION?!!?!
04:25:17 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
04:25:18 <fungot> Oranjer: in reading/ fnord :)/ offspring. nevertheless, in almost every breed, in/ :( hydrog. memoir," it would be even more striking.
04:25:50 <ehird> fax: why do you keep prependining fungot, ?
04:25:53 <fungot> ehird: villarsia sp.? " gentianeae). now on my plants there are, as to/ compositae and fnord and in this case no abnormal rootlets have been observed, as he had been obliged to read other books, and these to tristan d'acunha, a volcanic island situated under an arid climate will at once say whether i have made it clearer that he attaches most importance to/ plant, or more rarely partially transferred. but we are often wholly un
04:25:55 <ehird> apart from trolling
04:26:03 <fungot> ehird: geological notes made during a survey :)/ :( beagle" is described as being best. if, then, that foliated schists indisputably are sometimes produced with/ upper lip over/ canine or eye tooth raised on/ fnord
04:26:41 <oerjan> keep your notation polished
04:26:55 <Oranjer> "polish remover" :O Nazis!
04:27:52 <Oranjer> fungot, you're not a nazi, are you?
04:27:53 <fungot> Oranjer: arborescent cabbages :). it is said that some few plants seem to migrate more readily than they can be bent or doubled in any direction.
04:27:55 <oerjan> was a sport in the FRC hellympics, i recall
04:28:17 <fax> Oranjer: arborescent cabbages :)
04:28:43 <oerjan> are those cabbages involving into trees?
04:28:47 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:28:48 <fungot> fax: yours affectionately, ch. darwin." about wallace in lubbock's last chapter. in/ long-styled being quite smooth.
04:28:55 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
04:28:56 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:28:57 <fungot> fax: ' that's why i can't write anything down?' william said aloud. ' destiny.'
04:28:59 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:28:59 <fungot> fax: ' if something happens, something else has to happen! have you seen any like this before," said
04:29:00 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:29:01 <fungot> fax: " music's free," said brutha. " do you know much about gods?" said buddy.
04:29:07 <ehird> I'm feeding a troll
04:29:10 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:29:11 <immibis> fungot has flood protection
04:29:12 <fungot> immibis: there was a splash and the doors swing open," he added.
04:29:12 <ehird> just ignore fax when he does that
04:30:08 <Oranjer> hey, fungot, I need advice on how to implement the relation described by the mapping of n dimensions on each other, forming a tuple, in a mere 2-D plane.
04:30:09 <fungot> Oranjer: granny weatherwax was pretty damn' powerful. she was so rich she lived in three rooms in a fnord jerkin, rakishly floppy hat and black nails and education. oh, yes...
04:30:32 <Oranjer> okay, it is apparent that this bot is saying "look to the past for answers"
04:30:36 <fungot> Oranjer: albert looked up at the wooden box. technically, a cat locked in a gentle but very positive movement.
04:32:02 <Oranjer> though fungot, what symbol should I use to represent "the synthesis of these concepts"?
04:32:03 <fungot> Oranjer: om sat peacefully on brutha's lap. " i s'pose it all depends on how alive they've let themselves become able to do it, sergeant," he said, to no-one in particular.
04:33:02 <immibis> fungot, what is the meaning of life?
04:33:03 <fungot> immibis: ' oh, to sort it out.
04:33:32 <Oranjer> I would have to entirely agree with this sub-sentient bot
04:34:18 <immibis> fungot, what is the meaning of death?
04:34:19 <fungot> immibis: " you can really fnord' to have to tell you that the world's ended, then,' said
04:34:23 <immibis> fungot, what is the meaning of meaning?
04:34:24 <fungot> immibis: there was a young woman. very well," he muttered.
04:36:40 <Oranjer> fungot: the world needs a universal language: agree/disagree?
04:36:41 <fungot> Oranjer: wheezing a little, and walked up and down
04:38:35 -!- madbrain has joined.
04:38:58 <madbrain> hmm, it would be posslibe to make a system that runs at 60fps, with 262 scanlines per frame, 382 mem cycles (full ram access is 1 cycle, more accesses from the same RAM page are 1/3 cycle)
04:39:04 <oerjan> fungot: right, a conlang based on wheezing and silly walks
04:39:04 <fungot> oerjan: " why did you. i was champion three years running up at copperhead. i could destroy you utterly.
04:39:25 <Oranjer> wow, oerjan, I think it just threatened you
04:39:38 <Oranjer> because you insulted its ability to create a conlang from such thigns
04:40:26 <oerjan> fungot: that's it, you need anger management therapy
04:40:26 <fungot> oerjan: ' for various foreign notables and similar people.'
04:41:39 <Oranjer> fungot, are you saying foreign notables (and similar people) require the attentions of practitioners of psychiatry?
04:41:40 <fungot> Oranjer: " oook." the creator looked around distractedly. " you boys can afford it!"
04:42:03 <Oranjer> ah! so if such people can afford psych help, then they should get it, fungot?
04:42:04 <fungot> Oranjer: ' yes. look, you'd need one along elm street somewhere, dose to the stunned reptile. " it fnord you up. you'd said who did it?"
04:45:47 <immibis> fungot, oranjer needs to look along elm street?
04:45:48 <fungot> immibis: 1. a `while' ends it will not be an expression in each cardinal direction to look at it, create a new `while', and are human-readable; c-intercal will refuse to carry out bitwise ands, ors, and so will not affect uses of interleaving is to carry out bitwise ands, ors, and so on until its least significant bit, that produces an output executable, or something more complex), so you can also be used in expressions that ne
04:46:10 <fungot> immibis: 2.1 language-affecting options may change depending on the atari compiler
04:46:18 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:46:18 <fungot> fax: do pin :2 :1 times :2, error exit on overflow 2, an `ick_linelabel' is a debug-time error caused when you give the `-p' option is used); for more information on how much memory the lexer-generator needs to be done with a different license, version 1.2 or any later version published by the `oil' compiler option to `ick' will delete those files, include files, and some of the microcontroller's negative voltage rail. there ar
04:46:21 <Oranjer> what the hell fungot you switched styles on us what
04:46:22 <fungot> Oranjer: one of the form of each, one character after the created statement. ( a tail array can also avoid the problem is that such a variable can usually be read and written; however, it would be compile-time errors in a non-multithreaded program ( this is achieved with the c preprocessor is run and line labels
04:46:40 <ehird> either you have severe mental retardation
04:46:43 <ehird> or are trying to annoy us
04:46:53 <immibis> it's just ^style not fungot, ^style
04:46:54 <fungot> immibis: finally, the " vicword" program that allows you to have the same bit in register 32 ( 20). the .y register is as easy as possible.
04:47:02 <ehird> immibis: so we've told him ten times.
04:47:02 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
04:47:09 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
04:47:11 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:47:12 <fungot> fax: jsut stfu..ppl die everyday and someday you'll pass. it was flown from outside of the airstrip. therefore crashing into the trees at the door whilst watching this?
04:47:29 <immibis> lament are you here right now?
04:49:33 <Oranjer> hear that, fax? even the ol' beast itself is tired of your shit!
04:49:33 <fax> Oranger which shit?
04:49:33 <ehird> lament: ban fax he keeps prepending fungot comamnds with "fungot, " even though we've told him 50 times not to and he has acknowledged this and we have stated it plainly and also he is annoying us and he is trying to so yeah.
04:49:33 <fungot> ehird: that video? your comment would be able to get your xbox repaired. plenty of time, some people here.
04:49:33 <fax> you are all using the bot too
04:49:33 <ehird> xbox repaired? sweet!
04:49:33 <ehird> i don't have an xbox
04:49:33 <ehird> lament — MAD WITH POWER
04:49:33 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
04:49:33 <fax> wait a sec what is it I have done wrong?
04:49:33 <ehird> okay don't ban i guess
04:49:33 <ehird> fax: prepended fungot commands with "fungot, " which makes it ignore the commands
04:49:33 <fungot> ehird: i would have to say the least.... and i am quoting kingeek9:
04:49:33 <immibis> fax, you keep prepending ^style commands with "fungot,"
04:49:33 <fax> immibis everyone else is getting the bot to say stuff, why can't I too?
04:49:33 <fungot> immibis: boss fight is awesome and her songs were better bofor she changed, but that is amazing. i believe you have mentioned and named, and has been starded. always bet on duke!
04:49:33 <ehird> to troll us, you have succeeded
04:49:33 <fax> immibis what the hell is so bad about that??
04:49:33 <ehird> fax: it's just sending them with the current style
04:49:33 <ehird> that command format doesn't work
04:49:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
04:49:33 <ehird> why am i explaining this to someone who is troling
04:49:33 <immibis> fax: it doesn't change the style
04:49:33 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
04:49:33 <fax> immibis and I don't want to change the style
04:49:33 <fax> immibis why does it matter if I do that?
04:49:33 <immibis> fax, then don't use ^style
04:49:33 <ehird> fax: so stop saying "^style"
04:49:33 <fax> immibis I am not
04:49:33 <fungot> Oranjer: iago. and this may helpe to thicken other proofs that do demonstrate thinly.
04:49:33 <ehird> [03:47] fax: fungot, ^style discworld
04:49:33 <fungot> ehird: pericles. report thy parentage. i think this is a trick, a mere devise, a sleight plotted betwixt her father and my grandfather were kings, and banquo
04:49:33 <immibis> fungot please take over this channel and kick fax
04:49:33 <fungot> immibis: buck. northumberland, say thus: some good thing comes to morrow
04:49:33 <ehird> [03:47] fax: fungot, ^style discworld
04:49:33 <fungot> ehird: oli. what boy, to have your company. fnord in, shall it seeme to signifie
04:49:44 <ehird> you are saying ^style
04:49:56 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss* wp youtube
04:49:58 <fax> immibis if you want me to stop using the bot I will do
04:50:02 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
04:50:14 <ehird> just ignore fax, he's trollzin
04:50:24 <immibis> fax, it responds to *anything* with the word "fungot" in it using whatever the last style was
04:50:25 <fungot> immibis: ( e) a player
04:50:42 <fax> immibis: I know that
04:50:47 <immibis> fungot, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
04:50:48 <fungot> immibis: during this period e may become 2 rather than continue to exist, with two supporters. this rule
04:50:48 <ehird> Oranjer: talking about /ignores = uncool thx
04:51:40 <ehird> i meant ignore as in the don't read sense, not as in /ignore :P
04:52:49 <ehird> although you may not know about /ignore
04:52:49 <fax> you guys are insane I wasn't using the bot half as much as the rest but I still am the one that got told off
04:52:49 <fax> just becuaes you thought I didn't understand the command..
04:52:49 <ehird> then why did you say it, just out of curiosity
04:52:49 <ehird> also, we're #esoteric
04:52:49 <ehird> of course we're insane
04:53:27 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
04:53:28 <fungot> fax: iii) an entity's voting power on a sane proposal. as soon as possible, notify the notary.
04:53:47 <immibis> fax: it is annoying when you say "fungot, ^style something"
04:53:48 <fungot> immibis: a rule change is defined by the promotor to distribute the judgement must be either true, then
04:53:50 * ehird clicks a link on reddit, sees "After some kind people in #esoteric@irc.freenode.net", blinks
04:53:55 <fax> immibis why?
04:54:02 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
04:54:08 <ehird> (http://geeksbynature.dk/?p=61)
04:54:11 <ehird> coppro and immibis are mentioned
04:54:31 <oerjan> ehird: you do realize whether he adds , ^style discworld has no effect whatsoever, including bad ones, other than in your head?
04:54:40 <ehird> oerjan: IT'S ANNOYING AND CONFUSING :(
04:54:47 <fax> oerjan you are very wise
04:54:58 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
04:55:05 <oerjan> clean shaven, i'm afraid
04:55:19 <fax> Oranjer hates me :(
04:55:26 <fax> because I ^styled
04:55:29 <ehird> persecution complex!
04:55:30 <fax> oh really??
04:55:37 <ehird> hurf durf trollaxing
04:55:41 <Oranjer1> I merely despise your current actions
04:55:49 <ehird> I DESPISE YOUR FACE
04:56:03 -!- immibis has set topic: World temporarily saved: ais523 no longer thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Anyone who says "fungot, ^style" will be kicked.
04:56:10 <fax> im the worst person in the world
04:56:16 -!- immibis has set topic: World temporarily saved: ais523 no longer thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:56:21 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:56:30 <ehird> `addquote <fax> im the worst person in the world
04:56:31 <HackEgo> 96|<fax> im the worst person in the world
04:56:41 <HackEgo> 11|<SimonRC> TODO: sex life
04:56:46 <HackEgo> 16|<Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
04:56:49 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
04:57:22 <fax> ^style fungot
04:57:34 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur").
04:59:06 <HackEgo> 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
04:59:18 <HackEgo> 38|<Dylan> speaking of pants <Dylan> harry potter movie
04:59:27 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
04:59:34 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
04:59:36 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
04:59:46 <HackEgo> 16|<Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
04:59:49 <oerjan> yes, we are clearly insane. every one.
04:59:50 <HackEgo> 19|<Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom
04:59:51 <HackEgo> 32|<ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
04:59:53 <HackEgo> 90|<oklopol> hmm, this is hard
04:59:57 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
05:00:13 <HackEgo> 29|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
05:00:25 <HackEgo> 21|<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
05:00:36 <HackEgo> 88|<Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
05:01:27 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
05:01:27 <fax> `quote fungot
05:01:28 <fungot> fax: ( iii) if the office after the
05:01:29 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. 27|<fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there werent evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing
05:01:44 <fungot> immibis: any player is awarded to any of the
05:01:52 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:02:17 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
05:02:20 <ehird> fax: fungot ignores HackEgo
05:02:20 <fungot> ehird: there are three ranks within the past 48 hours. if a proposal that the
05:02:30 <HackEgo> 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
05:03:35 <HackEgo> 59|<Dylan> actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions
05:03:39 <fax> `quote fungot
05:03:39 <fungot> fax: ( b) for n abstain votes. the
05:03:40 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. 27|<fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there werent evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing
05:03:54 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but
05:04:00 <HackEgo> 04:04:00 up 81 days, 3:14, 0 users, load average: 0.29, 0.37, 0.20
05:04:03 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
05:04:14 <fax> `echo "$PATH"
05:04:23 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.10883/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
05:04:35 <immibis> !bf +++++++++++++[>++>++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.+.<++++++.>---.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++.>---.
05:04:49 <ehird> it has an ignore list
05:04:58 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
05:05:15 <fax> !bf >++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>++>--->>+++>+>---->++++>++>++++>----->---->+>-->+><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.>.
05:05:44 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
05:05:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out).
05:05:58 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
05:06:12 <HackEgo> 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
05:06:27 <ehird> i like how half of these are just normal oklopol talking
05:06:33 <HackEgo> 21|<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
05:06:49 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
05:06:54 <HackEgo> 56|<oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
05:07:00 <HackEgo> 40|<ehird> That'd be the fahrenheit? I'm trying to have a mental breakdown here.
05:07:18 <oerjan> ehird: did you succeed?
05:07:18 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
05:07:18 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
05:07:26 <HackEgo> 88|<Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
05:07:30 <HackEgo> 83|<Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously.
05:07:44 <fungot> Oranjer1: case 2: on ice cubes bourbon on the
05:07:55 <Oranjer1> ...burn on ice cubes? okay, fungot
05:07:56 <fungot> Oranjer1: actually, a translation function is not hard for the
05:08:05 <ehird> (jargon used to be the jargon file :P)
05:08:20 <HackEgo> 17|<GKennethR-L> :d <(I can lick my nose!)
05:08:23 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
05:08:30 <fungot> Oranjer1: in an instant, from the customary repetition of habitual acts, and of such mighty questions, in the hope that i may end this long debate with a few of those virtues which are not unlikely to attain the end.
05:08:41 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
05:08:54 <HackEgo> 95|<fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
05:08:58 <Oranjer1> I imagine Morgan Freeman saying that, of course
05:09:08 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
05:09:11 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
05:09:15 <HackEgo> 39|<GKennethR-L> I'm a furry
05:09:31 <fungot> Oranjer1: to answer this question, we must live through all time, from asking for some explanation of so extraordinary a nature that it has no sort of shelter or favour but what it can win, it has followed that the degree of fecundity fnord to this fnord, so fnord mixed with so much care, sometimes by wit, but more frequently by intrigue, by disguises, mistakes of persons, creed, or colour, shall be then, thenceforward, and for
05:10:03 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
05:10:04 <Oranjer1> no wonder that guy complained about them, if he really did see them this often
05:10:32 <HackEgo> 7|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
05:10:44 <Oranjer1> fungot: could you stop saying fnord? if you want to convey sadness, you should append a :sadface:
05:11:06 <fungot> ehird: delivered in hartford, at a later period, by unparalleled sacrifices and exertions, it becomes a very great deal more popular if it was once discovered by the skill with which he had, for a few days later, and i do not believe that all these varieties have been produced, and possibly may be upheld. nothing is more ridiculous than the manner in which it will leave behind. renew the youth of the state, not only from guilt,
05:11:10 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
05:11:44 <HackEgo> 71|<GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
05:12:33 -!- Oranjer has quit (Connection timed out).
05:12:49 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
05:12:53 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
05:12:58 <HackEgo> 44|<zzo38> I am not on the moon.
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07:14:45 <fungot> Warrigal: i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
07:15:11 <Warrigal> `addquote <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
07:15:11 <fungot> Warrigal: i've been monologuing for a while
07:15:14 <HackEgo> 97|<fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
07:15:47 <Oranjer> fungot, it is entirely impossible for you to monologue, as you only speak when spoken to
07:15:48 <fungot> Oranjer: os project used buenos as the base.... _), meaning the end value for the time being
07:16:02 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
07:16:07 <fungot> Oranjer: " read them, sylvie!" here one of the party, who were discussing some new music that had just arrived from london.
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07:26:14 <immibis> does anyone know how to make gcc allocate global variables at fixed memory addresses?
07:26:41 <coppro> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Variable-Attributes.html
07:27:37 <coppro> if it's not there, it doesn't have it
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08:17:10 <fax> fungot, ^style discworld
08:17:11 <fungot> fax: 23. some hungry crocodiles are unamiable. though what it was like this. what object can we imagine in the arrangement by which each different size ( roughly speaking) of living creatures has its special shape? for instance,
08:17:49 <immibis> gyhgjhweurqhrhqwierfhqriehqiouhouyguudysfgseirhaslrhalehlkjwheaJhlaksjfhajeLGHFKSJHRDGCKJSHDGFKGASFALWERIAWYER48QWYERICUHEWRVQNWA9ET8Q4WV9R8QYAW3ORPIY49QCAMWOR8YCOq
08:17:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice* c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:17:58 <fax> ^________^
08:18:06 <immibis> by the way, that does *not* change the style
08:18:17 <fax> oh?? I thought it did this whole time xD
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08:36:58 <fizzie> Yes, there's one uncaught fungot bug that sometimes causes it to get confused; that unsolicited reply way back there in the logs was probably it, since the nick-to-reply-to was corrupted too.
08:36:58 <fungot> fizzie: " nonsense!', said the earl. " an argument i heard only fnord not by a lady. ' why, about you!' haigha and hatta set to work at once to eat some of the fnord of the soul: and rising, fnord,
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10:50:34 <oklopol> immibis! my favorite irclet!
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11:27:52 <ais523> wow, a spam that's a cross between a 417 and pharmaceutical spam
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12:44:40 <augur> i just watched star trek
12:44:51 <augur> and im still enjoying it
12:44:55 <augur> not because it was especially awesome
12:44:57 <oklopol> in star trek, there's something called spock
12:45:16 <augur> but because as part of my nerd pride, i revel in the fact that im a nerd who enjoys star trek
12:45:37 <oklopol> oh well i suppose that makes you a bit of a nerdophiliac
12:45:54 <augur> why else do you think i find you so sexy? ;o
13:01:49 <augur> ok i must be off to school
13:06:11 <fizzie> Spork would've been a better name.
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15:54:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is it with geeks and sporks?
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15:55:10 <fizzie> It's just something you can foon.
15:57:08 <AnMaster> also I'm way too tired to google. Been a *very* busy day.
15:58:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: It doesn't sound quite as good, no.
15:59:00 <fizzie> Foon's also just an alternative name for a spork, but the way I learned it, it's the inverted variant.
15:59:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not sure the function "sporks" can be inverted. sporks⁻¹?
15:59:33 <AnMaster> that would be (sporks)⁻¹ to make it clear
15:59:37 <fizzie> It's not the function, it's just the concavity of it.
16:00:23 <fizzie> If you feel like downloading 1.5 megabytes of tiny-resolution AVI video from a slow place, http://www.spork.org/movies/foon.avi
16:00:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, look: sporks = spoon∘fork
16:01:02 <AnMaster> well, it could be a relation too
16:01:53 <fizzie> Personally I've just considered a spork as the union of spoon and fork, with the order having no meaning.
16:03:23 <fizzie> Anyway, if spork = spoon∘fork, you certainly don't get spork⁻¹ out of any foon = fork∘spoon construction.
16:04:17 <AnMaster> root 7899 37.7 8.7 208996 161996 ? RN 16:02 0:19 /usr/bin/python /usr/sbin/update-apt-xapian-index -q
16:04:25 <AnMaster> no where does it says what a xapian thingy is
16:04:37 <AnMaster> not in the man page, not in the file itself
16:05:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the official name for the three-way blending of fork + knife + spoon (or spork + knife, or knork + spoon, or spife + fork) is; the figure caption for the wikipedia Splayd article does say they're known as "sporfes".
16:06:15 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splayd
16:06:30 <fizzie> It doesn't quite tell where the name comes from.
16:06:42 <AnMaster> oh hm xapian seems to be some sort of search db
16:07:07 <fizzie> "SPLAYD® utensils (after the verb to splay - to slant, slope or spread outwards) were invented in Australia by Bill McAurthur of Potts Point, New South Wales in the late 1940's."
16:07:14 <fizzie> Ah, on the company's "history" page.
16:07:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, easy to hurt oneself on those it seems
16:08:47 <fizzie> Sporfe-chucks, now that's a terrible weapon.
16:09:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, eh... how did you even come up with that idea
16:09:33 <fizzie> By extrapolating from "hurt oneself".
16:09:49 <AnMaster> some extreme extrapolating that
16:12:27 <fizzie> Alternatively maybe some sort of thing where you take a regular metal fork, knife (a sharp one!) and spoon, rotate each so that it is perpendicular to the two others (thank the spork for three dimensions!), translate so that the center-points of their handles overlap, and meld the things together.
16:15:07 <fizzie> (Then try to take it with you to an airplane.)
16:21:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, eh. "thank the spork for ..."?
16:22:17 <fizzie> It's just the "thank the $deity for ..." sentence structure; I substituted the first thing that came to mind.
16:22:40 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure that the spork is actually the reason we have three dimensions, but you never know.
16:23:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, if it isn't, the real reason could be offended by that line
16:43:49 <ehird> mok lot of the ffot
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17:16:14 <AnMaster> "<TABLE BORDER="5" CONS=() WIDTH="800px">" <-- eh what?
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17:53:52 <ehird> today's xkcd is incidentally not funny
17:54:07 <ehird> but it's way too convoluted to actually be
17:55:30 <ehird> also, it uses the name megan. again
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18:12:11 <ais523> anyway, they fixed my computer problems by replacing the computer
18:12:16 <ais523> it turned out to be a bizzare hardware fault
18:12:28 <ais523> one of the temperature sensors was malfunctioning, so it kept thinking it was overheating
18:12:40 <ais523> and was spinning the fan up when off in an attempt to prevent the CPU catching fire
18:15:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I never said xkcd comic was funny
18:15:12 <ehird> I was just noting.
18:15:27 <ehird> shoulda just told it to HCF
18:15:46 <ais523> heh, you mean it wouldn't be trying to cool the CPU down on the assumption that the fire was deliberate?
18:15:48 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't that just require CPU or mobo replacement?
18:15:59 <AnMaster> I mean. that is where the sensors usually are
18:16:00 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but they had a computer spare
18:16:10 <ais523> presumably they're going to replace the motherboard on the one they removed, and put it back into service
18:16:11 <ehird> ais523: either that, or at least it'd be cooling it for a legitimate reason
18:16:43 <ehird> wow, Windows 7's WordPad can open .odts
18:16:52 <ehird> i didn't expect that from Microsoft...
18:17:13 <ais523> it's probably using the Word filters
18:17:29 <ehird> I doubt it; bundling Office parts with Windows?
18:17:30 <ais523> Microsoft have complied with the letter of the OpenDocument standard for a few months now
18:17:32 <ehird> Microsoft would never do thaat
18:17:48 <ehird> .odt and .doc and .docx all suck just about equally, tbh
18:17:53 <ais523> although, it's in a way incompatible with most other .odt writers
18:18:02 <ehird> although .doc isn't XML, which makes it slightly less horrific
18:18:06 <ehird> isn't .odt a zip or something?
18:18:08 <ais523> and I'm not sure, I learnt how to process .ods by reading the file itself
18:18:26 <ais523> the format's a pretty clear one
18:18:29 <ehird> zipped xml is the craziest file format imaginable
18:18:33 <ais523> and admittedly, that is the sort of thing XML was invented for
18:18:34 <ehird> isn't .doc pretty well supported nowadays, anyway?
18:18:39 <ais523> you should see the docs for .doc
18:18:50 <ehird> ais523: I imagine the same applies to .odt
18:18:59 <ais523> (also, .docx is a huge misuse of XML; XML done well is bad enough, XML done badly is even worse)
18:19:04 <ehird> does anything even do .odt properly apart from OpenOffice?
18:19:17 <ais523> ehird: I heard KOffice does
18:19:26 <ais523> although, compatibility isn't all that good
18:19:41 <ais523> someone important in the OpenDocument committee did a compatibility test
18:19:44 <ehird> "Notepad, by the way, remains crap." — entire paragraph in Ars Technica's review of Windows 7
18:19:45 <AnMaster> who cares about that though. Mine are all *.tex
18:19:56 <ais523> and found that the major implementations, other than Microsoft Office, were about 80% compatible
18:20:06 <ais523> which is impressive from a programming standpoint but useless from a business standpoint
18:20:18 <ais523> Microsoft Office was 0% compatible, incidentally
18:20:22 <ehird> coooooool, windows 7 can boot from a .vhd
18:20:26 <ehird> which is a Virtual PC VM
18:20:36 <ais523> because =2+2 from OpenOffice becomes a literal 4 in Excel
18:20:43 <ehird> cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
18:20:44 <ais523> which is a really insane way to interpret formulae
18:20:59 <ehird> that happens in the really really short K spreadsheet
18:21:09 <ehird> if you edit the formulae it saves it as a literal
18:21:12 <ehird> (but adding one line more fixes this)
18:21:13 <ais523> Microsoft claim that this meets the letter of the spec because formulae aren't standardised yet
18:21:18 <ehird> one or two lines, I forget
18:21:44 <ehird> guys! windows 7 can boot from vm images? isn't that really cool :|
18:22:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> coooooool, windows 7 can boot from a .vhd
18:22:19 <AnMaster> if it is a VM, what did you expect?
18:22:34 <ehird> you can just add it to the bootloader
18:22:46 <ehird> windows 7's bootloader
18:22:49 <ehird> uses windows 7's kernel
18:22:53 <ehird> to boot a virtual pc vm
18:22:57 <ehird> and that is AWESOME
18:23:11 <AnMaster> ehird, can the kernel be stored *inside* that VM?
18:23:15 <ehird> The images themselves can be either .WIM images (as used in Vista), or .VHD (as used in Virtual PC). The ability to use VHD images allows the same image to be used across both virtual and physical hardware. Using a VHD with physical hardware depends on a new Windows 7 feature that allows direct booting from a VHD file; as a consequence, only Windows 7 (and Windows Server 2008 R2) can be deployed in this way. Manually deploying VHD images is surprisingly si
18:23:15 <ehird> install an image into the VHD and then add an entry for the VHD into the boot menu using bcdedit. They are also supported using the updated Windows Deployment Services found in Server 2008 R2.
18:23:23 <ehird> you can only boot windows 7 from it, though
18:23:26 <ehird> but it's still ccool
18:23:29 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a full HD image etc
18:23:34 <ehird> the windows 7 kernel supports being booted from a VHD
18:23:39 <ehird> and the bootloader works with t his
18:23:50 <ehird> cooler if it supported other OSs, but still cool!
18:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yawn they are rather unlikely to support *.vdi though
18:24:17 <ehird> are you criticising Microsoft for not giving up their competitive advantage?
18:24:25 <ehird> some people really do live in a fantasy world...
18:25:15 <ehird> it's targeted at business stuff that needs to deploy servers and stuff
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18:38:53 <fungot> ais523: " the result we proceed to divide, as you see, miss, this here ought to have a joke made, why don't you make one yourself?'
18:39:06 <ais523> Oranjer: you need to use proper capitalisation when talking to fungot
18:39:07 <fungot> ais523: fnord. sugar is sweet; some sweet things are unwholesome; no nice cakes are new ( fnord but the other looks fnord." " fnord, read the fnord! here, bill! will the roof fnord to go with fnord fnord! and such horrid fnord!"
18:39:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice* c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
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18:39:26 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
18:39:40 <fungot> Oranjer: the assertation fnord in the article
18:39:53 <ais523> fungot: say something more interesting than that...
18:39:54 <fungot> ais523: finally, i suspect, has some... issues. ( my bad. :d
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18:41:07 <fungot> Oranjer: in 1991, the great tunb island was part of the consensus but i don't think that the t-x had any effect on the part the buddhist chroniclers of ceylon to give an idea of how many different sienas there are; then see fnord fnord like fnord is available at
18:41:28 <Oranjer> hey! I was born on an island in 1991!!!!
18:41:58 <fizzie> The wikipedia style is completely unfiltered, so sometimes fungot spews out talk page signatures and such.
18:41:59 <fungot> fizzie: while connected to a brain scanning device, the expert moderators of wikipedia must have a first division from class x onwards. final selection is made through interviews.
18:42:31 <fizzie> Ooh, I didn't know Wikipedia uses a brain scanning device to pick moderators.
18:42:42 <ais523> Wikipedia doesn't have moderators
18:42:48 <ais523> so the statement is vacuously true
18:42:55 <ais523> (well, /everyone's/ a moderator, I suppose)
18:43:29 <fizzie> Well, administrators, then.
18:43:48 <fizzie> That's how I read fungot's comment anyway.
18:43:48 <fungot> fizzie: 20:30, april 24, 2007.. fnord ( user fnord special:contributions/ fnord) 20:30, 12 september 2008 ( utc
18:43:58 <fizzie> Ha, and there's a signature, finally.
18:45:07 <ehird> [[Not even... I skimmed the first page, got to the bottom and saw it was a 15 page article. At that point I just thought to myself "15 pages, f* that" and closed the tab to come read the comments.]]
18:45:07 <ehird> these windows kids, dissatisfied with ars making a 15 page review
18:45:07 <ehird> you know us mac users
18:45:16 <ehird> we read every damn page of the ~22 page John Siracusa OS X reviews
18:45:47 <ais523> I actually read the whole review
18:45:58 <fizzie> I'm sure you like it "uphill both ways", but is that really a suitable topic of conversation in polite company?
18:46:23 <ehird> Siracusa's OS X reviews are better though.
18:47:03 <Oranjer> fungot, what OS do you use?
18:47:06 <fungot> Oranjer: fnord) refers to a list, that is required to watch this show. because, it was determined that " ln" should be " loser their vote."
18:47:16 <ehird> fungot runs on debian, doesn't e
18:47:17 <fungot> ehird: this article needs major editing and expanding. ( yes, it is possible to easily compare box office performance, and weekly with international box office and, once released on the net. information about census should not be wikilinked. span style="border: 1px solid fnord style="background: f8fcff; color: fnord 16:12, 22 may 2007 ( utc)
18:47:29 <ehird> information about census should not be wikilinked
18:47:45 <fizzie> ehird: Yes. You could even call it a double-Debian, since both the VM host and guest are Debians.
18:48:32 <ehird> "haha. you nailed me." —reddit
18:48:33 <ehird> I don't think that means what you think it means...
18:51:32 <AnMaster> <fungot> fizzie: while connected to a brain scanning device, the expert moderators of wikipedia must have a first division from class x onwards. final selection is made through interviews. <-- that was unusually coherent...
18:51:32 <fungot> AnMaster: " another back of the film
18:51:47 <ehird> it's futirist wikipedia
18:52:01 <ehird> they control the galaxy
18:52:05 <ehird> and are fully uploaded minds, no more bodies
18:56:39 <AnMaster> wow this build system was interesting
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20:14:17 <ais523> yay, the world doesn't actually end until 2220
20:14:23 <ais523> it seems that the 2012 date was a miscalculation
20:14:28 <ais523> and nobody had bothered to check it until now
20:18:51 <ais523> not the comic, the stylesheet
20:26:48 <fizzie> I doubt there's any browser that'd interpret the <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="QBASIC"> bit.
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20:27:36 <zzo38> If you have a Twitter account, can you fix this program to provide write access to Twitter, also? http://pastebin.ca/1644129
20:27:39 <ehird> ais523: miscalculation? seriously?
20:27:56 <ais523> 2012 is some sort of big astronomical event, not the end of the calendar
20:28:06 <ais523> well, astrological I suppose
20:28:07 <ehird> the calendar cycles
20:28:14 <ais523> well, the end of the cycle, I meant
20:28:15 <ehird> those who say otherwise are liars
20:28:47 <ais523> ah, 2012 is the sun crossing the galactic equator, it seems
20:29:07 <ais523> which Mayan astrologers thought was rather noteworthy, but which wasn't linked to the calendar
20:29:08 <zzo38> It is the end of the Mayan long-count, howevre it is still possible to extend the Mayan long-count to 13
20:29:22 <zzo38> (Or as long as you want)
20:29:43 <fizzie> Despite my best efforts to the contrary, I had to smile for few bits of that xkcd page source; notably, the part where there's a <SCRIPT LANGUAGE='SCHEME'> tag followed by the "eval" function from SICP's metacircular evaluator.
20:30:52 <zzo38> Which xkcd page is that?
20:31:06 <fizzie> The current front page.
20:31:14 <ais523> wow, I want to run that through the w3c validator now
20:31:42 <ais523> Result: 94 Errors, 22 warning(s)
20:32:08 <ais523> heh, the <HTML WEB="2.0"> drove it mad
20:32:26 <ehird> it doesn't have a midi
20:32:30 <zzo38> Ya, I can see many attributes and stuff that doesn't go
20:32:45 <ais523> geocities websites were all like that
20:32:47 <ais523> as was the advertising
20:32:48 <ehird> (else (error "Common Lisp or Netscape Navigator 4.0+ Required" exp))))
20:33:03 <ehird> but not generally so broken
20:33:08 <ehird> also, mostly with MIDIs.
20:33:15 <ehird> haha, there's an RDF
20:33:17 <ehird> commented out, though
20:33:19 <ais523> I remember how happy I was when I was young, and figured out how to make the awful JS on free hosting and free domain name services cancel each other out
20:33:23 <ehird> that's how you do embedded rdf
20:33:29 <ehird> wonder if anything can parse the rdf through that crap
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20:34:34 <zzo38> The Mozilla view-source is coloring the slash and part after it in the LANG= to red
20:35:05 <fizzie> It probably doesn't like the snowman there.
20:35:17 <zzo38> Truncated filenames
20:35:31 <ais523> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fxkcd.com&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0 if you want some fun
20:35:39 <ais523> with all that, I'm surprised it even renders
20:36:23 <zzo38> It has a invalid image USELES~1.PNG
20:38:48 <ais523> well, based on the name it was probably useless anyway
20:40:57 <Azstal> I liked the <TABLE SHELL="REGEDIT.EXE">
20:41:10 <ais523> I can't even tell what that's /meant/ to do
20:41:22 <zzo38> Probably nothing. They just put it there for joke
20:41:47 <ais523> well, what it's pretending to be meant to do
20:43:17 * ais523 wonders if it would have been funnier if it validated perfectly
20:43:27 <ais523> or possibly, 0 errors, 1337 warnings, or something like that
20:45:27 <ehird> geocities is still running
20:45:50 <ais523> ehird: it closes down today, apparently
20:45:55 <ehird> thus why i said it
20:46:20 <ehird> they'd better hurry up
20:46:22 <zzo38> Do you have a Twitter account, are you able to fix the program to allow write access to Twitter, also. I don't have Twitter account, but some people does and I like to allow write-access so that people who do have account can use this feature
20:46:35 <ehird> Four hours and 14 minutes to go
20:46:44 <ehird> at least in the UK :P
20:48:56 <zzo38> Is the Japanese GeoCities still available for longer time? Someone told me it is, on another channel on another server
20:54:36 * pikhq notes that it doesn't validate using *any* HTML DTD.
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21:08:00 <ehird> I have often wondered why R5RS didn't have a procedure that accepts a
21:08:01 <ehird> string and returns a new string that is like the input one but with all
21:08:01 <ehird> the likely names of cats in it capitalized.
21:08:45 <ehird> — http://groups.google.com/group/plt-scheme/browse_thread/thread/eebf5af76f9d18c1/e0d312e913f4dbdb#e0d312e913f4dbdb
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21:18:49 <ehird> obliterate it already!
21:20:16 <ehird> IT MUST HAPPEN SO LET THE CARNAGE BE WROUGHT
21:20:23 <ehird> PILLARS OF DARKNESS WILL FILL THE SKY
21:20:27 <Oranjer> did you see xkcd's tribute?
21:20:37 <Oranjer> they redid the site! yaaay
21:20:39 <ehird> AND S'ARGT'RTYLRK'ALGROT'H WILL RISE AGAIN
21:20:54 <ehird> Oranjer: gtfo xkcd lover (ok ok so the redesign is good)
21:21:19 <Oranjer> I just wish Yahoo would save the info
21:21:26 <Oranjer> there was lotsa crazy shit on their
21:21:38 <ehird> it'll still be on disk
21:21:48 <ehird> we just have to get someone to buy them
21:21:56 <ehird> they're taking the servers down
21:22:03 <ehird> they haven't said what will happen to the disks
21:22:16 <ehird> think how long erasure would take, months!
21:22:20 <ehird> Oranjer: probably not just yet
21:22:33 <ehird> they don't need the disk yet.
21:22:34 <ehird> so it's a waste of resources
21:22:35 <Oranjer> I dunno, ehird, seems like a pointless gamble to me
21:22:44 <Oranjer> we should get the info now
21:22:47 <ehird> how is it a gaamble
21:23:05 <Oranjer> as in, we're risking the info on yahoo!'s generosity
21:23:18 <Oranjer> that they won't erase it *whenever* without telling us
21:27:19 <fizzie> Given that both textfiles.com -- http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1961 -- and archive.org -- http://www.archive.org/web/geocities.php -- have been trying to capture everything they can, I doubt it'll be a total loss anyway.
21:27:40 <ehird> The obscure, barely-linked-to pages, constituting like 90% of geocities, are what matters.
21:27:50 <ehird> They have scraped maybe 10% of Geocities together.
21:28:01 <ehird> Oranjer: it's not a risk because it's fucking THEIRS
21:28:14 <ehird> i'm risking my livelihood on my good judgement
21:28:21 <ehird> well yeah, technically
21:28:25 <ehird> but that's a bit misleading
21:28:54 <Oranjer> so our and Yahoo!'s interests never have to necessarily coincide
21:29:02 <ehird> someone mirror the BANCStar page
21:29:16 <ais523> I don't have anywhere to host it
21:29:19 <ais523> is it on the Web Archive?
21:29:28 <ehird> geocities isn't gone yet
21:29:30 <ehird> I'll save a web archive
21:29:35 <ehird> (safari's html+css+js+images+etc)
21:29:49 <ehird> nice to be able to click save and get a complete snapshot
21:29:55 <ehird> hey, what's the esolangs wiki article called?
21:31:47 <ais523> there isn't an esolang article on BANCstar
21:32:34 <ehird> ais523: link me to teh geocities; also that's a shitty reason
21:32:34 <ais523> ooh, deleted from Special:Undelete too
21:32:42 <ehird> probably graue on a power trip
21:32:52 <ehird> anyway got the geocities link?
21:32:56 <ais523> http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/bancstar.html
21:34:00 <ehird> Shall I save the whole http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/index.html?
21:34:12 <ehird> And his var'aq page.
21:34:52 <Oranjer> fungot, you must help us preserve geocities' data!
21:34:54 <fungot> Oranjer: ( restarting fnord). if improved after it has been claimed in the first strip, and was about to translate this article into a redirect is a political theory very different from existentialism, most notably 30 seconds to mars, but also mentioned at the beginning explaining that passchendaele is now called passendale and ypres is now called drug of abuse was absolutely not about fnord drugs, save a few lines.
21:35:09 <ehird> ais523: http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/varaq/index.html
21:35:21 <ehird> could you wget --mirror?
21:35:27 <ehird> no point in perfectly preserving them, too much effort
21:36:16 <ehird> LET IT BUUUUUUUUUUUUURM
21:36:47 <Oranjer> jesus fuckin' houdini that's the most common, most pathetic excuse I have ever heard
21:36:50 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/varaq/index.html
21:37:08 <ehird> someone might have the interp if it hasn't been saved and shit and who cares
21:39:04 <ehird> [[We’re pretty sure we have the first two completed. Again. WE THINK WE HAVE EVERY SITE FROM 1999 AND BEFORE ON GEOCITIES THAT WAS LEFT. (Update: My team is more inclined towards “most” than “all”.)]]
21:39:13 <ehird> Okay, that is impressive.
21:39:14 <AnMaster> parts of it I should have at least
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21:40:00 <ehird> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1961
21:40:04 <ehird> I thought you said night, AnMaster.
21:42:00 <fizzie> It must've been some kind of styrofoam fake-arrow.
21:42:13 <ehird> I want a fake styrofoam arrow.
21:42:37 <Oranjer> enough to point out things from far away?
21:43:13 <ehird> It'd be fake sized!
21:43:22 <ehird> But, err, size of a kid, I guess.
21:43:58 <Oranjer> smaller than a spear, bigger than a foam finger-hand
21:44:28 <AnMaster> ehird, the arrow wasn't on the same line as the word night was it?
21:44:40 <ehird> AnMaster sure does like those mind gagmes.
21:44:51 <ehird> Oranjer: kid-sized; literally.
21:45:01 <AnMaster> why did I read "gagmes" as "goatse"?
21:46:34 <HackEgo> 66|<Aftran> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
21:48:39 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
21:48:52 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
21:49:12 <Oranjer> heh, I did too, after a while
21:49:52 <FireFly[DS]> You're probably more used to that keyboard layout, though?
21:53:56 <FireFly[DS]> Yeah, since almost every homebrew uses their own virtual keyboard, few bothers to make it customisable
21:54:38 <Oranjer> I wish I had a tablet thingy
21:56:02 <FireFly[DS]> Yeah, well, plugging it into anything seems to short-circuit the power source :\
21:56:19 <AnMaster> <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript <-- nice one
21:56:34 <AnMaster> and good that you finally saw the right path. The light side of the browser.
21:56:52 <ehird> the context was being on a 400mhz arm running firefox.
21:57:04 <ehird> also, this promptly completely broke reddit, so i reversed it.
21:57:09 <ehird> also, you added that quote yourself.
21:57:13 <AnMaster> * FireFly[DS] found ` on the american qwerty layout <-- why are you using that?
21:57:48 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], oops broken computer
21:58:39 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], so use the warranty then
21:59:03 <AnMaster> otherwise I would suggest taking the old PSU you surely having lying around somewhere
22:00:04 <FireFly[DS]> And he has the warranty doxuments and stuff
22:02:00 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
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22:15:38 -!- FireFly[DS] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:16:19 -!- FireyFly[DS] has changed nick to FireFly[DS].
22:18:04 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving").
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22:44:49 * pikhq mutters about make and mk failing at quoting forever
22:46:45 <oerjan> by definition i should think they can work in absolutely any way _except_ the normal one
22:47:19 * oerjan realizes "out of order" could be ambiguous
22:48:42 <madbrain> the technique I'm woring on is basically a huge stack based cpu, and it puts lots of operations in it and solves them "locally"
22:49:24 <pikhq> Why does mk not handle filenames with parenthesis in them... :(
22:51:06 <madbrain> for instance a*b + c*d is turned into a b * c d * +
22:51:23 <madbrain> and from there it can solve both a b * and c d * at the same time
22:54:37 <madbrain> obviously what limits this sort of stuff is (1) memory access dependencies (2) order of execution dependencies (3) feedback
22:54:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can't imagine such filenames...
22:56:16 <ais523> AnMaster: CLC-INTERCAL used to have a space in its filename
22:56:17 <ehird> [21:49] pikhq: Why does mk not handle filenames with parenthesis in them... :(
22:56:20 <ais523> which exposed a bug in mandb
22:56:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it's easy to imagine: NAME YOUR FILES WHAT THEY ARE
22:56:39 <AnMaster> hm would it be "glareee" or "glaree"?
22:56:44 <ehird> there are names of pieces of music with parentheses in them
22:57:04 <ehird> just because you live in a world where manipulating files that aren't all-fucked-up-like-this is near-impossible doesn't mean everyone else does
22:57:12 <ais523> AnMaster: I've never heard of either word
22:57:23 <ehird> I checked in the dictionary
22:57:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is obvious "glare" and "ee" ending.
22:57:39 <ehird> it's a stupid word
22:57:46 <ais523> but it's coined in any case
22:57:58 <ehird> seriously, don't use that word
22:58:01 <ehird> it sounds retarded
22:58:05 <madbrain> register writes can be dealt with by turning registers into buses... each read instruction waits until the bus becomes valid and then reads, each write instruction stops the bus from propagating downwards and replace it with their own bus, wait until their data is ready and then propagate downwards
22:58:09 <ehird> pikhq: which port? or are you using p9
22:58:14 <AnMaster> surely this is well known in English
22:58:28 <ehird> pikhq: define not handle; show your mkfile
22:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ee
22:58:45 <madbrain> memory writes can be dealt with in a similar manner but you have to wait at least for the memory address to be ready
22:58:47 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't work on general words
22:58:52 <pikhq> %.ogg: %.flac oggenc "$prereq" -o "$target"
22:58:57 <ehird> glareee as in someone who glares?
22:59:01 <pikhq> ... Why did it omit a newline?
22:59:09 <ais523> oh, someone who is glared at
22:59:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> glareee as in someone who glares? <-- who is glared at
22:59:14 <ais523> the someone who glares would be a glarer
22:59:19 <ais523> and "glaree" in that case, I usppose
22:59:20 <ehird> pikhq: sec, lemme look at mk
22:59:43 * pikhq is at least glad that mk handles *spaces* in filenames correctly
22:59:45 <AnMaster> why was that question so confusing?
23:00:02 <ehird> pikhq: firstly, why the quotes? iirc mk handles that for you
23:00:22 <ehird> also, `man mk` uses $stem.ext instead of $prereq/$target
23:00:30 <pikhq> ehird: It didn't handle that correctly.
23:00:31 <pikhq> Though that's because of /bin/sh's quoting.
23:00:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can't imagine anyone preferring ogg over flac :/
23:00:37 <ehird> <tab>oggenc $stem.ogg -o $stem.flac
23:00:45 <ehird> pikhq: use rc not sh
23:00:49 <ehird> seriously, using mk with sh is just ugh
23:00:59 <ehird> AnMaster: PORTABLE MUSIC PLAYERS DON'T EXIST
23:01:02 <pikhq> ehird: Alright, I'll change the MKSHELL.
23:01:09 <ehird> pikhq: just omit it, it defaults to rc
23:01:12 <ehird> unless plan9port futzes that up
23:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, true. I need *.aac for my phone's ring tunes
23:01:19 <pikhq> ehird: plan9port defaults to rc.
23:01:36 <ehird> so just omit the MKSHELL
23:03:14 <pikhq> Now I get "missing closing quote", because of a single ' in the filename.
23:03:22 <ehird> pikhq: there is a way to do this
23:03:45 <pikhq> Yeah, I'm aware there *is* a way. I'm just trying to figure that out. ;)
23:03:57 <ehird> <tab>oggenc '$stem.ogg' -o '$stem.flac'
23:04:04 <ehird> target and prereq are used
23:04:26 <ehird> target/prereq are uesd when it doesn't use %s
23:04:29 <ehird> so yeah, my last attempt stands
23:04:36 <ehird> Regular expression meta–rules:
23:04:36 <ehird> ([^/]*)/(.*)\.$O:R: \1/\2.c
23:04:37 <ehird> cd $stem1; $CC $CFLAGS $stem2.c
23:04:41 <ehird> ok, I didn't know you could do THAT
23:05:03 <ehird> [[The recipes printed by mk before being passed to rc for execution are sometimes erroneously expanded for printing. Don't trust what's printed; rely on what rc does.]]
23:05:09 <ehird> (it doesn't go line-by-line like make)
23:07:02 * pikhq still sees "missing closing quote".
23:07:59 <ehird> pikhq: with my mkfile?
23:08:13 <pikhq> missing closing quote: I'm Waiting For.ogg
23:08:17 * AnMaster tries to understand the magnitude of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_chained_arrow_notation and fails
23:08:31 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't understand the magnitude ofa million either
23:08:39 <ehird> the command it prints
23:08:43 <ehird> worth having a look
23:08:47 <pikhq> That's the full output.
23:08:58 <ehird> pikhq: do you have it as a quiet target thing?
23:09:02 <AnMaster> ehird, If I understand that page correctly 3→3→3→3 is larger than Graham's number
23:09:03 <ehird> if not, that's a mk error; not in the target
23:09:11 <ehird> pikhq: paste the whole mkfile?
23:09:27 <pikhq> MKSHELL=$PLAN9/bin/rc
23:09:35 <pikhq> <tab>oggenc '$stem.flac' -o '$stem.ogg'
23:09:45 <ehird> pikhq: ok, and you're just doing "mk"?
23:09:49 <ehird> I mean, mk needs arguments...
23:10:11 <pikhq> mk Mmhmm/01\ -\ The\ One\ I\'m\ Waiting\ For.ogg
23:10:44 <ehird> okay, so that's clearly a mk problem
23:10:50 <ehird> have you tried quoting it instead of doing \ all over the place :P
23:11:07 <pikhq> That's just the shell auto-escaping on tab completion.
23:11:19 <ehird> right, it looks like it's escaping fine
23:11:27 <pikhq> mk "Mmhmm/01 - The One I'm Waiting For.flac" ;# Equivalent, and results in the same.
23:11:39 <ehird> for shits and giggles move it to I''m
23:11:45 <ehird> would be interesting to see how it reacts.
23:12:23 <pikhq> oggenc '$stem.flac' -o '$stem.ogg'
23:12:23 <pikhq> ERROR: Cannot open input file "$stem.flac": No such file or directory
23:12:23 <pikhq> mk: oggenc '$stem.flac' -o '$stem.ogg' : exit status=exit(1)
23:12:34 <ehird> the quotes stop expansion
23:13:23 <ehird> pikhq: what does mk claim the command as?
23:13:23 <pikhq> Apparently mk hates *quotes* in filenames. :(
23:13:26 <pikhq> Quoting is very hard, it seems.
23:13:36 <pikhq> oggenc Mmhmm/01 - The One I''m Waiting For.flac -o Mmhmm/01 - The One I''m Waiting For.ogg
23:13:39 <ehird> quoting sucks because stupid things are based on string expansion
23:13:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually i hadn't even looked at the page
23:13:49 <ehird> pikhq: put an echo before the rc command
23:13:53 <ehird> so that rc can tell what it actually sees
23:13:59 <ehird> well, that won't work perfectly, but
23:14:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, You know it since before I assume.
23:14:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, what do you normally work with then in math
23:14:46 * pikhq goes to get food; will be back
23:14:50 <ehird> AnMaster: not such large numbers.
23:15:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well ok. But there are lots of other things to select from
23:15:13 <AnMaster> I wanted something more specific :p
23:15:51 <ehird> I imagine oerjan just doesn't work in that pathological domain.
23:16:08 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. Maybe in analysis?
23:16:28 <ehird> Didn't he link to one of his papers?
23:17:00 <ehird> Like a year or so ago. He should relink it
23:17:10 <ehird> (I tried finding it but there are a TON of oerjan johannsenns)
23:17:16 <ehird> (I probably mangled his last name there)
23:17:31 <AnMaster> ehird, try ö instead of oe, Or maybe ø
23:17:37 <oerjan> er a ton of Ørjan Johansens that are mathematical, i doubt
23:17:42 <ehird> Uh, yes, slashed o.
23:17:48 <ehird> I meant his LAST name.
23:17:59 <ehird> I don't... care...
23:18:11 <ehird> oerjan: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=Ørjan+Johansen+paper&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
23:18:59 <ehird> LINK IT LIKE A GREEN
23:19:42 <oerjan> link shmink i don't even remember where they are
23:20:04 <ehird> "I don't even remember what they were about!"
23:21:04 <Deewiant> ehird: You're doing it wrong. http://scholar.google.fi/scholar?q=Ørjan+Johansen
23:21:17 <ehird> You're doing it wrong, because I can't read Finnish.
23:21:21 <ehird> Also, I didn't know thaht site even existed.
23:21:29 <ehird> Also, there are way too many results there to be him. Um, probably.
23:21:35 <ehird> I doubt "A multimedia approach to TV-media literacy" is him.
23:21:38 <Deewiant> It's in English for me, don't blame me for Google's inane auto-redirection
23:22:07 <ehird> Anyway, there's no way to figure out which are him
23:22:12 <Deewiant> And don't blame me, I got there from .com.
23:22:48 <Deewiant> If you have nothing to say then just SAY NOTHING
23:23:07 <oerjan> dammit y key is randoly malfunctioning
23:24:04 <ehird> That's horrible. Are you okay? U, I hope you are okay. It would be very bad... argh, I don't use m much
23:24:33 <oerjan> incidentally all y papers were cowritten with either Richard Gjerde or Alf Rustad
23:26:08 <Deewiant> So the top three are probably all relevant
23:26:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:27:28 <oerjan> the top tree ay vary by country, you know
23:28:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, would G_64 followed by G_64 ! be larger or smaller than A(G_64,G_64)
23:28:35 <ehird> I think AnMaster thinks advanced mathematics means inane questions about really big numbers and really exploding functions
23:28:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that is *one* part of it
23:28:53 <ehird> A obviously grows much faster than !
23:28:56 <AnMaster> an interesting part too. For some values of interesting
23:28:58 <ehird> and if you put one iota of thought into it...
23:29:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I was wondering when repeated that number of times. But guess it doesn't matter...
23:29:24 <ehird> what does that t even mean?
23:29:27 <ehird> concatenating the digits?
23:29:33 <ehird> that's a ridiculous operation
23:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, as in G_64!!! is three times
23:29:44 <oerjan> h interesting they're not all behind paywalls as i feared: http://www.mscand.dk/article.php?id=153 is readable
23:29:49 <ehird> well, A is biggter
23:29:56 <ehird> A uses G64 to grow G64 too
23:30:01 <ehird> in the same way that your ! thing does
23:30:08 <ehird> but A grows faster than that, almost certainly
23:30:18 <ehird> so my answer to your inane question is that the latter is bigger
23:30:26 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't sure when there were so many ! that was all
23:30:28 <ehird> oerjan: sweet, I don't understand a fucking word
23:30:39 <ehird> AnMaster: you could have just worked it out from smaller numbers and used induction...
23:30:55 <oerjan> i guess there is readable and there is readable
23:30:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well true. Would have been a lot more work.
23:31:11 <ehird> it'd have been much less overall
23:31:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. That is what it alls boil down to
23:31:24 <ehird> Deep. Actually, no, not deep.
23:32:55 <ehird> Brought to you by the Department of Not Noticing An Almost-Identical Typo in the Very Next Wor,d Incorporat.ed
23:34:01 <ais523> ehird: is not correcting the second typo intentional?
23:34:15 <ais523> in that case, is either truly a typo?
23:38:21 <oerjan> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
23:39:02 <AnMaster> and that is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_license in this case
23:39:24 <AnMaster> for which the wikipedia article just differs by the case of one letter
23:39:32 <ais523> the name of the license was chosen deliberately, ofc
23:39:33 <AnMaster> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_License that is)
23:40:01 <ais523> AnMaster: you're starting to sound worryingly like zzo38, stop it
23:40:11 <ais523> only zzo38 can be zz038
23:40:21 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving").
23:40:21 <ais523> but, you're not all the way there yet
23:40:40 <ais523> AnMaster: that pointing-out of the case difference
23:40:46 <oklopol> wait is that oerjan's thesis
23:41:46 <oklopol> no wait i'm going with thesis
23:42:02 <oerjan> oklopol: no, just one paper from it
23:42:53 <oklopol> oh, right, i just scrolled down and happened to see a 100
23:43:35 <oklopol> is gjerde your evil alter ego
23:44:32 <oerjan> he actually changed into professional programming after finishing his thesis, actually
23:45:09 <ehird> is professional really needed? "i work in amateur programming"
23:45:24 <fizzie> Barely legal amateur programmers.
23:45:29 <pikhq> ehird: So, any idea why mk hates single quotes?
23:45:41 <ehird> pikhq: Sure — second
23:46:22 <ehird> fizzie: "barely legal" isamusing
23:46:35 <ehird> oklopol: makefile processor thingy from plan 9
23:46:37 <ehird> like make but better
23:46:55 <oklopol> would have to be a *lot* better
23:46:58 <oerjan> oklopol: we do, however, have the same tendency for puns
23:47:12 <ais523> the opposite of the way in which GNU make is 'better'?
23:47:17 <ehird> ais523: sends whole rule as a block instead of line-by-line
23:47:17 <oklopol> oerjan: so the thesis is probably full of them?
23:47:23 <ehird> you can quiet an entire rule
23:47:25 <oerjan> oklopol: alas i don't think so
23:47:27 <ehird> instead of tons of @s
23:47:31 <ehird> variable expansion is MUCH saner
23:47:34 <ais523> what if you want to quiet half a rule?
23:47:46 <ehird> echo out the commands you want to show :P
23:47:58 <ehird> ais523: since it sends everything out as a block, you can do conditions and shit without the \ mess
23:48:03 <ais523> I'm sure that can't be the right answer, that would suckmore
23:49:54 <ehird> the real answer is don't
23:50:24 <ais523> what about suppressing errors on half a rule?
23:50:27 <ais523> that's quite a sensible operation
23:50:42 <ais523> I suppose you could write || true on the lines in question, but it's not quite the same thing
23:50:44 <ehird> split your rule up; also, make doesn't have any special support for that
23:51:29 <fizzie> GNU Make does; that's the "-" prefix.
23:51:45 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise it was a GNUism
23:51:48 <ehird> mk sucks less for things people actually do.
23:51:58 <ehird> oh, it also handles C dependencies sanely, iicr
23:52:00 <fizzie> It might be a non-gnuism too, GNU make's the only thing I know to have it.
23:52:03 <pikhq> Straight UNIX make really doesn't do all that much.
23:52:07 <ehird> you can inject stuff into the mkfile
23:52:20 <ehird> it's been a while since I used it, though
23:52:28 <ehird> allmost found something
23:53:05 <fizzie> Though if the commands are just shell commands like in Make, I assume you could use something like a "|| true" suffix.
23:53:06 <ehird> http://code.swtch.com/plan9port/src/tip/src/cmd/mk/
23:53:14 <ehird> pikhq: feel free to dig in http://code.swtch.com/plan9port/src/tip/src/cmd/mk/ with me :P
23:53:22 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, the whole block is executed as a shell script
23:55:49 <ehird> bit of a wild goose chase this
23:56:12 <ehird> pikhq: by this point, I'd just write a python shell script with a function if modtime blah blah blah, system('...') and then like
23:56:24 <ehird> files = file.glob whatever
23:56:36 <ehird> yeah, it's a pain to recreate a make system but it's a few lines and this mk problem is truly puzzling
23:56:43 <pikhq> ehird: So, what you're saying is "someone needs to write a Make-like that doesn't suck."
23:56:50 <ehird> mk almost doesn't suck :(
23:56:59 <ehird> pikhq: the problem is that working with non-crappy filenames on unix sucks
23:57:03 <ehird> and make-like stuff is quite unixy
23:57:12 <ehird> someone needs to make a unix-like system that doesn't involve string interpolation...
23:57:31 <pikhq> Yeah, unixy string handling is quite bad.
23:57:50 <pikhq> Which is quite irritating, since UNIX does so damned much string handling.
23:58:57 <ehird> I was going to say something about it being such a shame that Unix is still being used by most people, but then I realised that most people use something even worse.
00:01:53 <ehird> Cutesy names for things you dislike is a sure sign of madness, one that I occasionally slip into.
00:02:20 <madbrain> actually i don't actively dislike windows
00:02:24 <oklopol> WELL HIS NAME IS MADBRAIN ISN'T THAT SORT OF A HINT HUH
00:02:27 <ehird> Then why call it Windose :P
00:02:33 <ehird> oklopol: GOOD POINT SIR
00:02:45 <ehird> haha my capslock key is mangled so i have to hit it really hard to get it to register
00:03:09 <ehird> Ciuld? Interesting word.
00:03:22 <ais523> ehird: have you found a nonbroken keyboard yet?
00:03:31 <oklopol> anyway it's like a dose of win, how's that insulting
00:03:44 <ehird> ais523: this keyboard isn't broken, I just keep fiddling with it, annoying that the keycaps are hard to replace
00:03:45 <madbrain> i don't see what's so bad about windows anyways
00:04:01 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to buy a really-good-quality keyboard sometime, and those have easy-to-replace keycaps
00:04:03 <ehird> also, harder to take off
00:04:13 <ehird> so that'll solve two things in one go
00:04:17 <oklopol> now what the fuck is that about this is the 21st century
00:04:30 <ehird> madbrain: UI-wise, Windows 7 is pretty great. but programming, and internally?
00:04:40 <ehird> also, cleartype really needs a redesign.
00:05:30 <ehird> so, whitehouse.gov now runs on Drupal
00:05:46 <ehird> probably a step down from whatever they were usinng
00:05:51 <ehird> (ASP.NET, I think)
00:05:57 <madbrain> well, yeah, i don't know much about win api but from what I gather it's probably a mess and the pumping out of new versions doesn't help either
00:06:14 <ehird> windows is pretty much hell for the programmer
00:06:19 <ehird> and its internals are scary. very scary
00:06:54 <ehird> Incidentally, I type very well on a scissor-switch board, although with lots and lots of errors.
00:06:59 <ehird> (Although I made no errors in that line.)
00:07:14 <ehird> I guess because of the low key travel and high activation force.
00:07:57 <ehird> So I basically slam each key and it hits rock bottom almost immediately.
00:16:07 <Sgeo> (define (eval exp env) (cond ((self-evaluating? exp) exp) ((variable? exp) (lookup-variable-value exp env)) ((quoted? exp) (text-of-quotation exp)) ((assignment? exp) (eval-assignment exp env)) ((definition? exp) (eval-definition exp env)) ((if? exp) (eval-if exp env)) ((lambda? exp) (make-procedure (lambda-parameters exp) (lambda-body exp) env)) ((begin? exp) (eval-sequence (begin-actions exp) env)) ((cond? exp) (eval (cond->i
00:16:07 <Sgeo> f exp) env)) ((application? exp) (apply (eval (operator exp) env) (list-of-values (operands exp) env))) (else (error "Common Lisp or Netscape Navigator 4.0+ Required" exp))))
00:16:28 <oklopol> that looks like copy paste from sicp
00:16:34 <ehird> It requires netscape navigator 4, Sgeo.
00:16:37 <ehird> it's totally different
00:16:42 <Sgeo> It's copy-paste from xkcd
00:16:50 <ehird> Sgeo: Netscape Navigator 4 used to let you code in a subset of scheme
00:16:57 <ehird> as a scripting language for pages
00:17:09 <ehird> it wasn't widely used, though.
00:18:07 <Azstal> It wouldn't surprise me, Brendan Eich said that was what he wanted
00:18:13 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
00:18:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:18:58 <ehird> By the way, geocities is in the process of shutting down.
00:19:01 <ehird> Sites are disappearing, so...
00:19:05 <ehird> Maybe they really are erasing it.
00:20:24 <Sgeo> I guess it's too late to go into Active Worlds and download the content that some ancient builds relied on
00:22:43 <ehird> <ehird> Gee, Sgeo, what do you want to do tonight?
00:22:44 <ehird> <Sgeo> The same thing we do every night, ehird — get nostalgic over old internet-based 3D virtual reality games!
00:23:27 <oklopol> hey that doesn't look like an authentic conversation
00:23:44 <ehird> I'M A DIRTY LIAR also a dirty referencer
00:23:51 <Sgeo> oklopol, it does accurately represent how I feel about old internet-based 3D virtual reality games
00:24:11 <ehird> Sgeo feels like a genetically-engineered mouse with an unusually large head.
00:24:15 <oklopol> Sgeo: so plausible lies are okay lies?
00:24:24 <ehird> oklopol: moral crusader
00:24:44 <oklopol> WELL EXCUSE ME FOR NOT ENJOYING YOUR SICK GAMES OF DISVIRTUE
00:25:02 <ehird> disvirtue should so be a word
00:25:12 <oerjan> oklopol: Ancient Greeks like Socrates certainly thought so.
00:25:55 <ehird> GREEKS: DISHONEST CROOKS
00:26:16 <fizzie> Like I said (and sorry for not participating the whole Navigator 4 Scheme dialect fiction), it's the eval function of the SICP metacircular evaluator; as itself, without all the other functions it refers to -- particularly apply -- it doesn't really do much.
00:26:50 <ehird> CAN YOU SPOT HOW IT WAS MODIFIED?
00:26:53 <ehird> (Hint: At the end.)
00:27:04 <ehird> <Sgeo> What's metacircular?
00:27:11 <ehird> <oerjan> i never met a circular i didn't like
00:27:47 <oerjan> s/ular.*/ *hit by falling anvil*/
00:28:06 <ehird> I never meta circ hit by a falling anvil that I didn't like?
00:28:15 <fizzie> Changing a string literal is not much of a modification.
00:28:15 <ehird> You're so compassionate to circs that are the victim of anvil-related attacks.
00:28:40 <ehird> I never metacirc *hit by falling anvil*
00:28:57 <ehird> That, I say, that's a joke, son.
00:28:57 <oklopol> you are joking inaccurately
00:29:26 <fizzie> And an inaccurate joke is worse than none at all! Or was that a diagnosis?
00:29:57 <ehird> Inaccurate diabeetus.
00:30:36 <Sgeo> I know someone who tends to ruin his jokes by saying how they were inaccurate :/
00:31:22 <ehird> Gander, gander, gander, gander, gander, gander, gander, gander, gander, gander, gander
00:31:49 <ehird> wither do you GANDER INCORPORATED
00:32:11 <ehird> my light's flickering
00:32:13 <ehird> hang in there light
00:33:15 * Sgeo needs to discuss an ad for class
00:34:07 * Sgeo was thinking perhaps an ad in a VR game
00:36:27 * Sgeo gets angry at AWLD or whoever owns AW
00:36:38 <Sgeo> There is a site that used to be the center of the largest world in AW
00:36:53 <Sgeo> The entry place to this world has been relocated, and the old site deemed historic
00:37:23 <Sgeo> Guess what I see? NEW STUFF, FROM AFTER THE RELOCATION!
00:37:35 <Sgeo> (Well, I think it's from after0
00:38:29 * Sgeo walks on a road from 1995
00:41:28 -!- coppro has joined.
00:45:33 <Sgeo> This map will no longer work, in this build that is important to me
00:45:42 <Sgeo> But I saved the map to disk, it's not gone forever
00:48:37 <Sgeo> When Geocities dies, the map in http://imgur.com/Bbh1Q.png will turn to static
00:50:52 <Sgeo> A lot of other stuff will turn to static
00:51:01 <Sgeo> But not much that I've personally been involved with, so
00:52:44 * Sgeo may have been the only one in RSTV (which no one but myself cares about) to use Geocities
00:55:58 <Sgeo> Much older than Second Life, and different in a lot of ways
00:57:31 <Sgeo> Old AW TV station
00:57:34 <Sgeo> That I was part of
00:57:37 <Sgeo> Never really took off
00:57:49 <Sgeo> (At least, we did have a functioning station, but no one watched it)
00:59:34 -!- Oranjer has joined.
00:59:47 <Sgeo> AW TV consisted of a script that would, every 10 seconds, show a different image
00:59:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube
01:00:01 <Sgeo> It was possible to make an object that would refresh a page every 10 seconds
01:00:17 <Oranjer> I have a firefox plugin that does that
01:00:40 <Sgeo> I don't know if there are any still existant AW TV stations out there
01:00:54 <Sgeo> VWTV, which was fairly big, and provided RSTV's hosting, died
01:01:02 <Sgeo> Active Worlds: http://activeworlds.com
01:02:29 <Sgeo> What AW did for pictures, instead of having them uploaded to AW's servers, people would just make an object that pointed to a URL
01:02:39 <Sgeo> A lot of stuff was stored on Geocities...
01:02:52 <Oranjer> well, now there are alternatives
01:03:06 <Sgeo> Oranjer, but some of these builds are old
01:03:18 <Sgeo> The original makers are no longer active in AW, and no one else can change them
01:03:22 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/Bbh1Q.png
01:03:43 <Sgeo> That map is stored on Geocities, but I'm no longer an AW citizen, and can't change it to point to a new URL (not that anyone besides me would ever visit(
01:04:13 <Sgeo> Do you want to visit?
01:04:38 <Sgeo> And RSTV in particular, perhaps
01:09:13 <Sgeo> Meet me in AWGate
01:09:39 <Sgeo> (It's the place you go when you log in)
01:10:55 <Sgeo> Say somnething when you're there. If you stay silent, no one will know who you are
01:11:00 <Sgeo> No name appears above your head
01:13:26 <Oranjer> so uh I downloaded and installed it
01:13:41 <Sgeo> Log in as a tourist
01:13:48 <Sgeo> You can make up an email, they don't check
01:14:00 <Oranjer> now I am automatically upgrading my version
01:14:10 <Oranjer> I'm not at the logging in yet
01:14:24 <Sgeo> Tell me when you're in, I'm going to play a bit of Paintball
01:17:32 <Sgeo> Oranjer, arrow keys
01:17:36 <Sgeo> Click the 3d screen first
01:27:00 <Sgeo> Oranjer, you still on?
01:29:03 * pikhq found a vaguely make-esque program that was at least patched to not suck with string handling
01:29:29 <pikhq> Pity it doesn't support parallelism or anything, but it doesn't act dumb. Hooray!
01:29:46 <ehird> You know that your conversion task could be handled by about 10 lines of Python.
01:29:57 <pikhq> "svmk.tcl", a simple Tcl script.
01:31:26 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1644512
01:35:12 <Sgeo> Wait, out as in left AW, or out as in out of the water, Oranjer?
01:47:02 <Sgeo> "Oranjer":Eric, what year do you think it is?
01:47:02 <Sgeo> Eric John:2004
01:47:37 <ehird> what did Eric say to prompt thatt?
01:48:07 <Oranjer> he was remarking on the year of the building we are in, I think
01:48:24 <ehird> you crazy windows users, you
01:48:26 <ehird> having all the fun
01:49:02 <Oranjer> Sgeo showed me this virtual thing, but I must say, the controls are fairly counterintuitive
01:49:24 <Sgeo> Oranjer, AW dates from 1995, I think
01:50:02 <ehird> it's as old as me :(
02:16:24 <Sgeo> Oranjer, where are you?
02:17:56 <Oranjer> I went through a door and BAM
02:18:22 <Sgeo> Oranjer, click the back button
02:18:46 <Sgeo> That was supposed to be a thingy that let you go to different parts of the "hotel" that the whole thing was a part of
02:18:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:19:02 <Sgeo> It used absolute coords, so when it was relocated to a safe place, it broke
02:19:20 <Sgeo> You went back in?
02:26:30 <Sgeo> Oranjer, were you teleported again?
02:26:37 <Sgeo> Come to 3410S 24205E
02:28:21 -!- augur_ has joined.
02:32:24 <augur_> hows it going my oft wrong friend?
02:34:18 * Sgeo dragged Oranjer into his nostalgia
02:35:07 <Oranjer> I remember playing The Universal
02:35:19 <Sgeo> Oranjer, I tried that once
02:35:35 <Sgeo> Just one planet of it, though
02:35:40 <Sgeo> Is it still alive?
02:35:56 <Oranjer> I was only on for about a year, three years ago
02:36:07 <Oranjer> it wasn't the game's fault
02:36:14 <Oranjer> I had been trying to make my own planet
02:36:15 <Sgeo> I remember almost everything I've been on since 2001
02:36:36 <Oranjer> I lost practically all of my stuff I had ever worked on ever :(
02:37:00 * Sgeo has had 3 Crashes of that sort
02:37:10 <Sgeo> One, in and before the summer of 2001
02:37:18 <Sgeo> One, at an unknown time
02:37:26 <Sgeo> And one, no later than August 2003
02:37:45 <Sgeo> I remember almost NOTHING of my online travels before Crash
02:38:03 <Sgeo> I may actually have data from before Crash 2 or Crash 3 on some HD somewhere
02:38:15 <Sgeo> I need to investigate
02:38:19 <Oranjer> I remember I was into Game Maker
02:38:30 <Sgeo> I liked User Friendly and Cybertown
02:38:45 <Oranjer> I do not know what that means
02:38:52 <Sgeo> UserFriendly == webcomic
02:38:57 <Sgeo> Cybertown == 3d city thing
02:39:14 <Sgeo> I stayed in Cybertown until, 2004 I think. One year after it went subscription
02:39:18 <Oranjer> well, Sgeo, do you remember what planet you were on in The Universal?
02:39:24 <Sgeo> Oranjer, one that involved flying
02:39:39 <Sgeo> That's about all I remember
02:39:44 <Oranjer> my god I cannot believe I remember that
02:40:03 <Oranjer> although, I always did love the planet "The Republic"
02:40:09 <Oranjer> you started out as a caveman
02:40:23 <Oranjer> and you had to basically recreate civilization
02:40:24 <Sgeo> There's one 3d place that I can't even remember a name to
02:40:35 <Sgeo> And I saw maybe 0 other people there when I was on
02:40:39 <Sgeo> But I still want to find it again
02:40:41 <Oranjer> you went from a caveman, knight, robber baron, guy on hoverboard
02:40:48 <Oranjer> then it started over again
02:40:55 <Oranjer> oh, Sgeo? can you describe it?
02:41:06 <Sgeo> Um, it had a program to easily create your own nightclub
02:41:14 <Sgeo> And in the main area, there was a grafitti wall
02:41:22 <Oranjer> mind you, the important part of The Republic was that you could not do it alone
02:44:28 <Sgeo> There's another place that I remember the name to, but haven't revisited in ever. I really should, it's the reason I went to AW
02:44:44 <Sgeo> I was looking for information on the book Flatland, and it just so happens there's a 3d thingy by that name
02:44:54 <Sgeo> Somehow, don't remember how, I get from there to Active Worlds
02:44:57 <Sgeo> Oranjer, agreed
02:45:58 <Sgeo> "And so begins the Flatland Blog, albeit a little late as this saga began in 1996, the first year I could have gone to Burning Man and didnt. Instead I had just left a video game company and was struggling with VRML. If I, a veteran programmer of 10 years, couldnt make heads or tails of this format, how would creators in general deal with 3D on the Web?"
02:46:26 <Oranjer> I was also confuddled by the inefficient nature of VRML
02:46:40 <oerjan> a 3d thingy by the name Flatland, how logical
02:47:16 <Sgeo> I.. might not have actually touched Flatland myself
02:47:42 <Sgeo> None of these screenshots are triggering recognition
02:47:47 <Sgeo> Where did I see that puzzle?
02:47:59 <Sgeo> There was some egyptian puzzle like thingy
02:48:18 <Sgeo> I can't remember the platform. Adobe Atmosphere? That unknown nightclub thingy? Flatland?
02:48:27 <coppro> Flatland is an awesome book
02:48:54 <coppro> it deserves repetition
02:48:55 <Sgeo> tbh, I remember Flatterland a bit better
02:49:11 <oerjan> i don't know, i think it's lacking in depth
02:50:14 <Oranjer> I usually just use Flatland as a warning
02:50:24 <Oranjer> you know, against closed-mindedness
02:50:49 <Oranjer> as in, if someone comes up to me, and says they've found a Nazi mummy that's come alive
02:50:54 <Oranjer> I'll sure as hell investigate
02:51:12 <Oranjer> I may not believe them, but I'll at least see it with my own eyes
02:51:13 <oerjan> not run away like hell?
02:51:42 <Oranjer> well, I will bring along some sorta weapon, of course
02:51:49 <coppro> yeah, whenever I hear something I don't believe, I always qualify my objections. Flatland helped me with that
02:52:22 <Oranjer> I just try to avoid assuming
02:52:38 <Oranjer> actually, Flatland helped me become a true fallibilist
02:52:46 <Sgeo> BTW, that waterpark thing that Oranjer fell into was from 1995
02:53:15 * oerjan foresees many interesting discussions between Oranjer and ehird
02:53:46 <oerjan> he's rather the skeptic :D
02:54:08 <Oranjer> well, what do you think I am?
02:54:24 <Oranjer> I am even skeptical of my own methods of reasoning
02:55:38 <Oranjer> although, someone on here, I forgot who, disagrees with me on epistemological anarchism
02:56:18 <Oranjer> also, E-prime! remember, "It's bullshit"? or "I think it's bullshit"?
02:56:31 <madbrain> oh god epistemological anarchism
02:56:37 <ehird> funny, E-prime is ALSO bullshit
02:56:48 <ehird> madbrain: "SCIENCE HAS A MONOPOLY ON REASON AND THIS IS WRONG"
02:57:03 <Oranjer> sorry, ehird, but I believe you misunderstand
02:57:06 <ehird> basically "Science is just as right or wrong as any other method of coming to conclusions, hurf durf, science-only people are dumb"
02:57:15 <ehird> Then Wikipedia does too.
02:57:24 <madbrain> well, science worked hard to get where it is now
02:57:33 <ehird> "Epistemological anarchism is an epistemological theory advanced by Austrian philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend which holds that there are no useful and exception-free methodological rules governing the progress of science or the growth of knowledge. It holds that the idea that science can or should operate according to universal and fixed rules is unrealistic, pernicious and detrimental to science itself."
02:57:48 <Oranjer> well, the first part is true, but the "science0only people are dumb"? poppycock
02:57:51 <ehird> "The use of the term anarchism in the name reflected the methodological pluralism prescription of the theory; as the purported scientific method does not have a monopoly on truth or useful results, the pragmatic approach is a Dadaistic "anything goes" attitude toward methodologies.[1] The theory advocates treating science as an ideology alongside others such as religion, magic and mythology, and considers the dominance of science in society authoritarian a
02:57:52 <ehird> unjustified.[1] Promulgation of the theory earned Feyerabend the title of “the worst enemy of science” from his detractors.[2]"
02:57:56 <ehird> "The theory advocates treating science as an ideology alongside others such as religion, magic and mythology, and considers the dominance of science in society authoritarian and unjustified."
02:58:27 <Oranjer> ehird, what exactly does saying something equals bullshit...do?
02:58:36 <ehird> it means it's bullshit
02:58:37 <madbrain> yeah that's like, either postmodernism of fundies... probably postmodernism
02:59:21 <madbrain> ok well, from an epistemological point of view, ideas that stem from, well, the actual state of the world should be promoted
02:59:42 <Sgeo> Well, which viewpoint has given us the longest lifespans?
02:59:44 <ehird> Oranjer also believes in some other theory
02:59:52 <ehird> "every imaginable reality is just as real as ours"
03:00:02 <ehird> SO ACTUALLY EVERY PHILOSOPHY IS EQUALLY AS RIGHT AS EVERYTHING
03:00:04 <ehird> IF YOU'RE A RETARD
03:00:08 <ehird> WHO WILL BELIEVE ANY OLD SHIT
03:00:12 * coppro wishes he lived near Austria... murder is so much easier to commit in person
03:00:19 <madbrain> that's basically denying the phisical world
03:00:24 <ehird> coppro: who, exactly, do you want to kill?
03:00:25 <Sgeo> Whether it's "real" or not is irrelevant to whether we really care
03:00:33 <coppro> ehird: that Paul Feyeradsajfl guy
03:00:36 <Sgeo> So what if some parallel universe has different laws from us?
03:00:37 <ehird> he's dead, coppro.
03:00:51 <ehird> YOU CAN IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE HE IS ALIVE
03:00:52 <coppro> anyone here teach necromancy?
03:00:57 <coppro> according to his theory it's as valid as science
03:00:57 <ehird> AND BEING KILLED BY COPPRO RIGHT NOW
03:01:04 <ehird> you are in fact doing it
03:01:16 <coppro> so I'll just bring him back to life and kill him
03:01:28 <ehird> You are already doing it!
03:01:28 <Sgeo> What's the difference between that any the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics?
03:01:38 <madbrain> who cares about the other world
03:01:43 <ehird> in that the many worlds doesn't literally refer to "many worlds"
03:01:47 <coppro> Sgeo: the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics is a) dumb b) misinterpreted
03:01:49 <ehird> and is actually a scientific theory
03:01:53 <ehird> coppro: (a) no, it's not (b) agreed
03:01:58 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
03:02:13 <ehird> it's far simpler than the copenhagen interpretation, which is hand-waving to boot
03:02:35 <Sgeo> I'm not sure how it can be a theory if it's untestable
03:02:58 <ehird> So is the Copenhagen interpretation.
03:03:05 <ehird> But theoretically, you could communicate across Everett branches. Maybe.
03:03:14 <ehird> Point is, we need a model and MWI is the simplest.
03:03:15 <coppro> ehird: I forget the interpretation I prefer
03:03:19 <ehird> And doesn't hand-wave, which Copenhagen does.
03:03:29 <ehird> coppro: I have only seen MWI and Copenhagen being touted.
03:03:36 <ehird> Oh, and that crazy quantum darwinism thing that only nescience believes.
03:03:39 <ehird> But that's basically adjusted MWI.
03:03:40 <coppro> wikipedia lists like 20
03:03:48 <Sgeo> I dislike MWI, but only because of the implications I can imagine when I fantasize about time travel
03:04:04 <ehird> MWI is what you need for non-paradoxical time-travel.
03:04:20 <coppro> I agree with the idea that the Copenhagen Interpretation is ridiculous and stupid (see Schrodinger)
03:04:38 <ehird> coppro: anyway, Hugh Everett was kooky, but it was fleshed out intoo something with real value
03:04:44 <ehird> as unbelievable as that sounds
03:04:51 <Sgeo> Why not something like the Novikov self-consistency principle?
03:04:54 <ehird> (also, MWI != quantum immortality, which is bullshit)
03:05:21 <Sgeo> if quantum immortality then MWI, but not (if MWI, then quantum immortality)
03:05:23 <ehird> Sgeo: because the implications are ridiculous and would make time travel impossible
03:05:36 <coppro> the interpretation I favor is whichever one says that it's a sort of past-of-least-resistance thing. It's a variant of MWI.
03:05:39 <ehird> due to chaos theory, you can't do ANYTHING without creating a time paradox
03:05:44 <ehird> or at least, most anything
03:05:48 <ehird> coppro: heh, that's quantum darwinism, I believe.
03:06:08 <Sgeo> ehird, but whatever effect you have is what had already happened, because of you
03:06:19 <ehird> sgeo, you're boring and time travel isn't possible.
03:06:20 <coppro> ehird: but that's not listed on Wikipedia!
03:06:33 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Darwinism
03:06:37 <coppro> not on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics
03:06:44 <coppro> therefore it doesn't exist, etc.
03:06:55 <madbrain> build a quantum bomb, that destroys the removes the current branch of possibilities... the button will never get pressed
03:07:06 <ehird> madbrain: sitcom opportunity!
03:07:14 <coppro> no, the one I like isn't quantum darwinism
03:07:20 <ehird> "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Activate The Bo— Ow! You hit me!"
03:07:34 <Sgeo> madbrain, or the bomb malfunctions, or the presser's finger vaporizes
03:07:51 <ehird> Sgeo: I dismiss that theory easily: its complexity is unbelievably high
03:08:05 <Sgeo> I'd think that bomb malfunction isn't that complex
03:08:08 <ehird> The sheer "infrastructure" that would be needed in physics to prevent the events is ridiculous.
03:08:11 <Sgeo> finger vaporization, yes
03:08:42 <madbrain> for a tv show it's a button that displays a naked woman. since the show is rated "ok for everybody", the button cannot get pressed, since if it did they'd have to rewrite the scenario
03:09:00 <ehird> displays a naked woman then causes a time paradox
03:09:02 <ehird> priorities, you know
03:09:06 <ehird> gotta go out with a bang
03:09:53 <Sgeo> madbrain, isn't that like discovering a technology that gets the USS Voyager home instantly?
03:10:05 <Sgeo> If it's discovered, the show's over
03:10:19 <ehird> IT CAN'T HAPPEN SGEO
03:10:27 <ehird> your pet time travel enabler states so
03:10:41 <Sgeo> So I can't switch into a discussion of TV shows?
03:15:23 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
03:15:45 <oerjan> Sgeo: the universe conspires against you doing so
03:16:21 <coppro> Sgeo: incidentally, it did happen, and the show ended
03:16:45 <Sgeo> Well, except for the finale
03:17:03 * Sgeo didn't actually watch that, but read about it :/
03:21:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:26:15 <coppro> ehird: Voyager gets home. duh
03:26:26 <ehird> [02:16] coppro: Sgeo: incidentally, it did happen, and the show ended
03:26:27 <ehird> [02:16] Sgeo: Well, except for the finale
03:26:30 <ehird> or did those messages clash
03:26:33 <ehird> i.e., not chronologically
03:27:17 <Sgeo> Um, that was chronological. By "except", I was referring to my earlier statement
03:27:20 <coppro> now, to provide contrast, I predict that a way will be found to provide regular two-way travel between Destiny and Earth by... mid-fourth season
03:27:24 <coppro> (if it gets that far, of course)
03:27:42 <ehird> I DO NOT WATCH THESE SCI-FI SHOES PEOPLE
03:28:02 <ehird> Stargate has a whole series devoted to a typeface?
03:28:02 * Sgeo barely watched any SG-1 or Stargate Atlantis
03:28:05 <ehird> Wow, some tenuous plot
03:28:26 <Sgeo> I think it would be bad for me to start on a new one, I barely know stuff from the old ones
03:29:02 <coppro> SGU's pretty free-floating
03:29:14 <coppro> though you'll want to catch up from the start rather than jump in
03:29:54 <Sgeo> I'll have to look into it
03:52:36 <madbrain> I feel like there's nothing left interesting on the internet
04:05:49 <Ilari> Ugh... I hate giving times with international signaficance as just "EDT"...
04:06:08 <Ilari> At least also give UTC times...
04:06:44 <coppro> Ilari: what makes it doubly bad is that 4/5ths of the world use "EST" when they mean "EDT"
04:06:51 <coppro> I have been burned by this before
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05:50:23 <pikhq> Sgeo: They've gotten tech to get the Voyager home several times.
05:50:37 <pikhq> And didn't use it for no good reason. Several times.
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12:24:45 <ais523> <municifent> The "for" keyword is used for looping. Most of the time. Sometimes it prints a random string to the screen.
12:24:56 <AnMaster> ais523, what language is that?
12:25:13 <ais523> it isn't, it was a hypothetical one
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15:13:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: the question is, is Adam really sure they didn't find anything. it's mind control after all.
15:13:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, see clog for my comments on the comic some hours ago
15:14:09 <oerjan> i did, otherwise i wouldn't have spoiled so blatantly
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20:36:13 * AnMaster wonders how sane it is to burn an iso file when the iso file is on an nfs mount
20:36:20 <AnMaster> over 100 mbit ethernet lan, but still
20:37:38 <AnMaster> also, very strange that only one of two computers, both having dvd burners claiming to support DVD+R DL, can actually see the disc
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20:37:56 <AnMaster> which is why I'm considering iso mounted over nfs
20:38:02 <AnMaster> since other computer lacks disk space for it
20:45:16 <oklopol> http://users.utu.fi/yurnik/RO.pub.htm <<< that belarusian lecturer i once told about's course website
20:45:46 <oklopol> not sure it's as horrible with normal colors as it is with my ehird theme, but anyway
20:45:58 <oklopol> there's the dancing rainbow anyway.
20:47:41 <lament> smart people are stupid
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20:50:25 <oklopol> beats being stupid though, stupid people aren't smart
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21:31:57 <oerjan> that's good, then you can see us
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21:39:55 <oerjan> ion can be both a positive and a negative thing
21:39:59 <fizzie> Maybe he just likes to hang around ion users.
21:40:22 <fizzie> (I think they call themselves "ionizers".)
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22:06:53 <fizzie> If you're doing manual xorg.confery, you can do the "old-style" multihead simply by duplicating the "Device" section, putting Screen 0 in one and Screen 1 in the other, then two "Screen" sections, and both screens in the "ServerLayout" section the way you want them. (But I'm sure modern systems have more user-friendly ways of doing it.)
22:09:30 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, why are you using ION?
22:10:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, for me it works by just doing /usr/bin/nvidia-settings and enabling twin-view
22:10:15 <AnMaster> not often I have two screens around though
22:10:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: He just said he doesn't want twinview.
22:10:45 <AnMaster> where? I restarted client and reconnected to bouncer just before he joined last time
22:10:55 <AnMaster> and no scrollback since I was connected before that
22:11:24 <fizzie> Immediately after joining; just look at the dozen last lines of today's log.
22:12:05 <fizzie> My nvidia dualhead setup looks like http://zem.fi/~fis/x.txt -- though with Ion, I guess you don't want Xinerama on. And those are numbered "0" and "2" because there's the third monitor too.
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22:12:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not going to open firefox atm, due to burning a dvd.
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22:13:53 <fizzie> Isn't it against Ion's philosophy to do multihead, though? I mean, the reason given for not supporting Xinerama is "I'm not going to waste my time rubbing your unecological penis enlargement"; admittedly it supports plain X multihead, but I don't see how that would make it any more ecological.
22:17:28 <fizzie> Since I'm not sure whether you saw it or not; here's one nvidia-card dualhead-without-twinview xorg.conf: http://zem.fi/~fis/x.txt
22:18:03 <fizzie> Might not be helpful at all.
22:20:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does xinerama do btw?
22:20:52 <AnMaster> is it the thing that prevents menus from opening split across the edge of two screens?
22:22:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: No; well, yes, in the sense that it provides the screen layout information. But without Xinerama (or twinview or such) the two screens are completely separate, meaning you need different DISPLAY strings to access them and all. Xinerama sort-of merges them to one logical screen, so that you can have screen-spanning windows, or move windows between screens.
22:23:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, err, but where does twinview fit into it
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22:23:59 <AnMaster> because I know my system was compiled without xinerama support, could move stuff between the screens. But with xinerama on firefox suddenly didn't open the menu in strange places and such
22:24:25 <fizzie> Twinview's just a nvidia-specific hack to make two physical monitors appear as a single "physical" X screen; that's what gives you the split menus and other ugly things like that. It has a "fake-Xinerama" thing which makes it provide the Xinerama information so that window managers know the physical screen boundaries.
22:25:37 <fizzie> Well, what does your /var/log/Xorg.log say?
22:25:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, sometimes it is useful to have a single window split across the monitors though
22:26:32 <fizzie> (Xorg.0.log more likely.)
22:27:27 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: You probably need to add "Screen 0" to one of the devices, and "Screen 1" to the other. (Well, that's my guess.)
22:27:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess, though I don't really remember ever wanting that.
22:28:50 <fizzie> (What I do use is separate browser windows on both screens, which is not possible with X multihead without using two browser instances.)
22:29:08 <AnMaster> [growisofs] :-[ CLOSE DISC failed with SK=5h/SESSION FIXATION ERROR - INCOMPLETE TRACK IN SESSION]: Input/output error
22:30:03 <fizzie> Kicker's the KDE panel thing? I prefer separate panels on each screen, not some strange on-two-screens thing.
22:32:02 <fax> fungot, ^style alice
22:32:04 <fungot> fax: added a notation on the fuel tank issue the panther vehicles had. i apologize in advance if it seems important then, someone could add it to the page :)
22:39:51 <bsmntbombdood_> i can't move focus from screen to screen with the keyboard
22:45:37 <oerjan> fax: exactly what do you think "fungot, ^style alice" is supposed to do?
22:45:38 <fungot> oerjan: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ console/ xbox360/ image/ large/ fnord hammer
22:45:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Beware, the fnord hammer.
22:46:23 <oerjan> hammer _and_ anvil. i'm doomed!
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23:00:17 <fizzie> That's a bit strange; at least xlock should lock all screens of a server, even without any extra looks-like-one-logical-screen trickery. (Some other methods of locking might not.)
23:00:51 <fizzie> Firefox will if you use two profiles, but that's just annoying.
23:01:06 <fizzie> Maybe you should use a third-party-Xinerama-patched version of Ion.
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23:46:25 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood_, twinview would Just Work :P
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23:49:24 <fizzie> Indeed; since Ion doesn't do Xinerama, it can't know anything about how the screens are split when using TwinView.
23:50:18 <fizzie> There are existing patches, though.
23:51:40 <AnMaster> someone should. It would annoy the hell out of the author
23:51:46 <fizzie> I have a feeling the Xinerama patches pretty much are a de-facto Ion fork. Haven't really looked at the situation.
23:53:04 <fizzie> All this X nonsense is inspiring; I think I'll check if my triple-head setup has magically fixed itself. (Some quasi-recent X upgrade broke it so that it crashes on startup unless I remove the third head.)
23:54:01 <fizzie> "It will not support the pile of crap known as Xrandr 1.2 “Xinerama 2.0” (of the “choose the worst solution possible” design typical of major FOSS projects)"
23:55:07 <fizzie> All kinds of stuff; on-the-fly resolution / rotation changes, mostly, but also multihead-related activities.
23:55:25 <fizzie> I just think pre-1.2 it didn't do anything multihead-related at all.
23:56:06 <fizzie> (And anyway nvidia's binary driver isn't very XRandR-friendly; it supports some basics of it, but not as well as the open-source radeon driver, whose "twinview"-lookalike is configured via XRandR, unless I remember wrongly.)
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23:57:43 <fizzie> Haha; "Finally, here are some current window managers and tools that have an approach similar to (copied from) Ion --"; right, anything that's like Ion is copying from it.
23:57:43 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood_, switch WM seriously.
23:58:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ion wasn't the first tiling one was it?
23:58:30 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
23:58:43 <fizzie> Not interested enough to start digging up dates, though.
00:01:07 <fizzie> Oh, wow, that was unexpected: I just copied the old triple-head xorg.conf in place, and now it works. Some later xorg (or kernel) update must've fixed whatever was wrong with it.
00:11:31 <fizzie> Don't worry, the window manager (Awesome) is broken anyway. (They use a Lua script as the config file, and change pretty much all interfaces for every minor revision; I just upgraded from 3.3 to 3.4 and everything's broken.)
00:18:13 <fizzie> Well, it's a tiling wm, with the whole "tags" thing. I could even like it if they'd selected something else than Lua for their scripting lanugage.
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00:22:04 <Sgeo> Is Pyglet any good?
00:22:40 <ehird> 12:36:13 * AnMaster wonders how sane it is to burn an iso file when the iso file is on an nfs mount
00:22:47 <ehird> 100 Mb internet is faster than a CD.
00:23:05 <ehird> Sgeo: it is, I recall, unmaintained.
00:23:09 <Rugxulo> ehird, dumb question but what does "roger the googly" mean??
00:23:14 <Rugxulo> (say it mentioned on Family Guy)
00:23:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: I don't know? Family Guy is retarded
00:23:54 <Rugxulo> and MS won't sponsor it for Win7 anymore (awww, too bad)
00:24:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: I did think about that; it was disrecommended by someone, though.
00:24:31 <Sgeo> o.O Why is 0, 0 the LOWER left corner? In graphics stuff, isn't it typically the upper left?
00:24:34 <fizzie> I don't remember at all, just that someone voiced a negative opinion.
00:24:59 <Sgeo> http://www.pyglet.org/doc/programming_guide/image_viewer.html "The arguments (0, 0) tell pyglet to draw the image at pixel coordinates 0, 0 in the window (the lower-left corner)."
00:25:05 <AnMaster> Sgeo, and in math you generally have positive y up
00:25:08 <fizzie> Lower-left isn't so terribly uncommon either.
00:25:25 <fizzie> It does feel a bit more "mathy", yes.
00:25:26 <Rugxulo> didn't OS/2 use something odd like the top right??
00:25:32 <ehird> fizzie: dwm is cool innit
00:25:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think we should use polar coordinates
00:25:43 <ehird> TGA uses 0,0 = bottom right
00:26:07 <ehird> you can set a field
00:26:08 <AnMaster> still, I want an image format with polar coordinates
00:26:10 <ehird> to flip the coordinates
00:26:38 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm what is tga meant for? Maybe for "print this while it is being sent"?
00:26:44 <AnMaster> thus maybe making sense or such
00:26:55 <ehird> TGA is just for everything.
00:26:56 <ehird> Assuming you don't need compression.
00:27:00 <ehird> brb, trying to switch to wifi
00:30:16 * Rugxulo is surprised ehird doesn't like Family Guy, seems right up his alley
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00:48:52 <ehird> 13:38:56 <AnMaster> wow he uses ion? XD
00:48:52 <ehird> There's nothing wrong with ion, the author just has a bad personality
00:48:52 <ehird> 14:13:53 <fizzie> Isn't it against Ion's philosophy to do multihead, though? I mean, the reason given for not supporting Xinerama is "I'm not going to waste my time rubbing your unecological penis enlargement"; admittedly it supports plain X multihead, but I don't see how that would make it any more ecological.
00:48:56 <ehird> He's said on the mailinglists just to use regular multihead, i.e. he's not going to expend *effort* making it work for multiple monitor users
00:48:59 <ehird> 15:50:29 <AnMaster> fork ion?
00:49:01 <ehird> 15:51:40 <AnMaster> someone should. It would annoy the hell out of the author
00:49:05 <ehird> 15:57:43 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood_, switch WM seriously.
00:49:09 <ehird> 15:58:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ion wasn't the first tiling one was it?
00:49:11 <ehird> No; pwm, ion's successor, was the first tabbing WM
00:49:13 <ehird> 15:59:20 <AnMaster> dwm or such I would guess
00:49:17 <ehird> (There are no real alternatives to ion if you want tabbing+tiling)
00:49:19 <ehird> Also, stop talking about ion
00:49:21 <ehird> Stupid being disconnected while logreading
00:49:23 <ehird> Also stupid #esoteric being stuck on boring topics for ages
00:49:27 <ehird> 1.48 Mb/s download, 87 ms ping. Wi-Fi to router/modem downstairs, with something like 3 Mb/s theoretical maximum.
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01:09:29 <ehird> "Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer available."
01:09:42 <ehird> RIP GeoCities 1994—2009
01:10:03 <ehird> Or should I say Beverly Hills Internet?
01:13:13 <ehird> I wonder how to mount a loopback ext2 on OS X.
01:16:20 <Sgeo> Yesterday, I felt nostalgia for a website. It wasn't Geocities
01:16:59 <Sgeo> It's just, I'm usually easily affected by nostalgia, and you'd think that I'd feel nostalgia for Geocities
01:17:40 <ais523> I feel nostalgic for GeoCities
01:17:57 <ais523> I did a Google search today, and the fourth result, and the first useful one for me, was actually a Geocities website
01:18:24 <ais523> looks like I found it just in time
01:18:36 <ehird> I'd say boycott Yahoo!, but nobody uses Yahoo!.
01:18:37 <Sgeo> What was it, if I may ask?
01:18:40 <ehird> Apart from you, for emergency email.
01:18:44 <ais523> Sgeo: a massive list of prime numbers
01:18:48 <ehird> (Seriously; nobody uses Yahoo!!)
01:18:49 <ais523> ehird: also, I use Yahoo!
01:18:54 <ehird> (Also, FUCK THEIR NAME)
01:19:00 <ehird> ais523: why? it gives crappy resultsst
01:19:04 <ais523> for a non-work mail account
01:19:11 <ehird> [00:18] ehird: Apart from you, for emergency email.
01:19:14 <ehird> the agora one, yes?
01:19:16 * Sgeo likes girls. Not names
01:19:23 <ehird> that's a pretty minnor use
01:19:29 <ais523> because the SMTP server on bham.ac.uk keeps going down
01:19:37 <ehird> "Sgeo likes girls. Not names"
01:19:43 <ais523> making it rather hard to send emails, and in nomic timing is often important
01:19:45 <ehird> it doesn't mean a thiing
01:19:46 <Sgeo> <ehird> (Also, FUCK THEIR NAME)
01:19:57 <ehird> Sgeo: oh. now if only it was funny!
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01:28:27 <ehird> "Simple generic tabbed fronted to xembed aware applications, originally designed for surf but also usable with many other application, i.e. uzbl, urxvt and xterm"
01:28:30 <ehird> I love you, suckless
01:29:33 <ehird> 841 lines; quite big for suckless
01:29:46 <ehird> tabbed \- simple webkit-based browser
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01:35:43 <ehird> reporting a bug to suckless was refreshingly simple.
01:36:06 <ehird> send to dev+subscribe-nomail@suckless.org, reply to its response. email dev@suckless.org
01:37:19 <ehird> tabbed \- simple webkit-based browser
01:37:23 <ehird> obviously copied from the surf manpage
01:37:47 <ehird> (that quote from the manpage was my entire message body :P)
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01:40:09 <ehird> hmm, t'isn't working; wonder what i broke
01:40:12 <pikhq> Hmm. What use could I get out of tabbed, anyways?
01:40:27 <ehird> pikhq: using a non-tabbed browser; tabs are a window management function
01:40:28 <pikhq> (I specifically, not "what does it do")
01:40:42 <ehird> e.g. http://surf.suckless.org/
01:40:52 <ehird> "It is able to display websites and follow links."
01:41:04 <pikhq> ehird: Tempting. I am always on the lookout for less-sucky web browsers.
01:41:21 <ehird> surf is adding one of those mouseless-link-clicky things sometime I belieeve, if that's yoru thing
01:41:34 <ehird> http://man.suckless.org/surf/1/surf pretty much lists everything it can do
01:41:41 <pikhq> That's one of the things I do with Conkeror, yes.
01:41:44 <ehird> admittedly, webkit/gtk handles basically the entire page
01:42:24 <ehird> http://surf.suckless.org/patches/history history is an optional patch :-D
01:42:32 <ehird> cat ~/.surf/history | sort -r | uniq | dmenu -l 10 -b -i | xprop -id `cat ~/.surf/id` -f _SURF_URI 8s -set _SURF_URI
01:42:35 <ehird> nice history viewer
01:42:49 <pikhq> It appears to be sufficiently non-suck that I may give it a shot in the near future.
01:42:49 <ehird> would be better with dmenu-vertical, though
01:43:25 <ehird> I love the suckless guys
01:44:24 <pikhq> Hmm. Wmii is using 9p?
01:44:31 <pikhq> That's kinda sweet.
01:44:40 <ehird> The suckless guys are huge plan9 fans.
01:44:44 <ehird> wmii depends on plan9port, iirc
01:44:46 <ehird> or, wait, just the 9base subset
01:45:10 <ehird> werc, their website tool, is written entirely in rc (plan9 shell)
01:45:29 <ehird> pikhq: dwm is a bit more suckless than wmii, though, i'd say
01:45:53 <ehird> of course there can be a thing as too much simplicity, but as you use ratpoison i somehow i doubt that applies
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01:46:28 <pikhq> ehird: I usually have two X windows open at a time.
01:46:37 <pikhq> For this purpose, Ratpoison is almost *overkill*. :P
01:46:49 <ehird> ratpoison makes it a real bitch to look at more than one thing at once
01:46:59 <ehird> like, even to have more than one terminal is a pain, imo
01:47:09 <ehird> dwm things are nice because open windows automatically fit and you can hide them if you want
01:48:01 <ehird> my current plan is to build myself a little linux around a tiny, moduleless kernel + static binaries only and dwm...
01:48:14 <ehird> funny how only that and OS X seem to be usable; two extremes
01:48:28 <pikhq> Why the annoyance at dynamic linking?
01:49:05 <pikhq> (the idea, not the implementation; UNIXy things make it hard to actually *build* dynamic libraries)
01:49:08 <ehird> http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ is the most succinct explanation
01:49:23 <ehird> and, to add on to that post: They're just simpler.
01:49:27 <ais523> DJGPP deliberately doesn't have shared objects
01:49:33 <pikhq> Well, they certainly are simpler.
01:49:45 <ehird> http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ gives the non-simplicity nazi reasons :P
01:50:45 <pikhq> It'd be kinda nice if Linux distros weren't so crazy about breaking ABIs.
01:50:54 <ehird> oh, and a.out is simpler than ELF
01:51:05 <ehird> and if you're not using dynamic linking, ELF isn't attractive
01:51:18 <pikhq> Or at least were smarter *about* the treatment of breaking ABIs.
01:51:28 <ehird> simplicity nazi reasons are justified, to be honest; with no kernel modules, static binaries and a.out, I can maintain a distro without pain
01:51:45 <ehird> be nice if someone else did it, of course, but http://stali.suckless.org/ misses the mark ever so slightly :(
01:51:54 <ehird> although they put the kernel in /bin/kernel, which is totally my idea, dammit
01:52:05 <pikhq> ehird: Heck, with no kernel modules, static binaries, and a.out, distro maintainance is little more than compiling things when you upgrade.
01:52:21 <ehird> pikhq: add one to that list — a really simple init system
01:52:31 <ehird> no sysv init, not even bsd init (too opaque file), just two init scripts that call others
01:52:41 <ehird> to activate one, make a binary and add it to the main init file
01:52:44 <ehird> to deactivate, comment out the line
01:52:49 <pikhq> A really simple init system is... Not someething I blame you for.
01:52:53 <ehird> main init files = shell scripts
01:52:58 <ehird> pikhq: tell me about it
01:53:05 <ehird> even adding a simple thing to debian's init.d makes me cry
01:53:35 <pikhq> Make it a couple scripts that run things in /etc/init.d and /etc/halt.d or some such.
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01:53:53 <ehird> pikhq: just /etc/init.start and /etc/init.stop, I think
01:53:56 <ehird> no need for tons of runlevels
01:54:02 <ehird> /etc/init.start would look something like:
01:54:16 <ehird> /etc/init/networking/start
01:54:23 <ehird> /etc/init/blahcrapservice/start
01:54:34 <ehird> in fact, forget the directories; /etc/init/networking.start
01:54:38 <pikhq> If you really, truly want it to listen to init signals, make an absurdly simple inittab.
01:54:59 <ehird> eh, does it really matter?
01:55:09 <pikhq> ehird: I was more thinking: for i in /etc/init.d/*; $i ; done
01:55:18 <ehird> pikhq: ah, but what about disabling things temporarily?
01:55:20 <ehird> all the other systems let you do that
01:55:34 <ehird> also, passing arguments
01:55:37 <ehird> for instance, network configuration
01:55:49 <ehird> starting two web servers
01:56:16 <pikhq> for i in /etc/init.d/*; if [ -x $i];then $i;fi ; done
01:56:21 <ehird> /etc/init/httpd.start -c /etc/httpd/site1.conf
01:56:21 <ehird> /etc/init/httpd.start -c /etc/httpd/site2.conf
01:56:44 <ehird> anyway, easy to switch between either.
01:57:00 <ehird> one idea for a package management system:
01:57:26 <ehird> /pkg/kernel/2.6.31.5 is a directory full of directories and symlinks
01:57:40 <ehird> inside, a symlink "kernel" to /bin/kernel
01:57:48 <ehird> and, just making something up
01:57:57 <ehird> a dir usr/, a dir share/, a symlink kernel to directory /usr/share/kerneel
01:58:07 <ehird> so basically, removing a package = rm -r it while following symlinks
01:58:24 <ehird> and it means you can easily view the files in a package, etc
01:59:03 <ehird> that's just an idea, though
01:59:15 <ehird> equivalently is a list of files
01:59:38 <ehird> so i guess that idea is silly, really
02:00:04 <ehird> hey, that's cool; with a list of files, updating a package is just rsyncing the relevant files
02:00:52 <ehird> that + install/uninstall scripts for things like init system entries = package management system
02:01:42 <coppro> what's ehird trying to do? this conversation is tl
02:01:44 <ehird> kinda upsetting when you come up with such a simple solution, knowing the complexity of all the others
02:01:58 <ehird> coppro: the most recentt thing = package management system, aggressively simplified
02:02:51 <ehird> the supertopic = making an incredibly minimalist linux distribution with tiny kernel without modules + static binaries only (and a.out) + init system solely consists of two shell scripts that call other shell scripts and binaries + package management system is so light as to barely exist
02:04:17 <ehird> oh, i just realised an issue
02:04:30 <ehird> if i need to, for whatever reason, use emacs, even for a millisecond... i'd have to create a package for it
02:04:33 <ehird> i'd be a maintainer of emacs!
02:05:33 <coppro> ok, I get you so far - how do you plan to deal with configuration of packages and/or, more importantly, changed configurations?
02:06:14 <ehird> configuration of packages is handled by /etc files. maybe if there is a justification, i will write scripts to handle it, but it'd basically be the same as e.g. gnome's configurators; not needed in the package management system
02:06:41 <ehird> i don't see any issue with this; do you? and, in that context, what would need to be done about changed configurations? I'm not sure what you mean by that term
02:08:01 <ehird> coppro: additionally, i don't see you dealing with configuration of your mom.
02:08:47 <ehird> WELL THAT PUT YOUR RESPONSES OUT OF BUSINESS. so to speak.
02:09:00 <coppro> ehird: well, look at what debian does - it installs a default config in /etc - but some packages offer customization options when installed. This normally isn't particularly necessary, but some packages need configuration options to be useful
02:09:12 <coppro> ehird: and if the user changes the configuration, you need a merge system for upgrades
02:10:32 <ehird> (a) sure, just handle that in whatever global configuration system you desire, be it vi /etc/blah or gnome-whatever — just either have sane defaults if possible (or omit options entirely if it won't work without; just have a commented out template) and, if you must, alert the user in the install script
02:10:32 <ehird> (b) good point, but is this really a big deal? you could copy the default config somewhere, but generally the user's current config will work
02:10:39 <ehird> (and notify the user of its location)
02:10:58 <ehird> if there are backwards incompatible changes, yeah, i guess you should say "HEY USER FIX THIS", but I don't think the existing merge systems can handle syntax changes or whatever
02:13:23 <ehird> coppro: i just don't see merge systems as handling a problem that happens often, and when they do handle it it's either trivial or dissatisfactory
02:13:28 <ehird> i may be totally wrong
02:13:54 <coppro> ehird: debian does a prompt like a version control system in case of a merge conflict
02:14:07 <ehird> Does that address anything I say? If so, what part?
02:14:35 <coppro> <ehird> and when they do handle it it's either trivial or dissatisfactory
02:14:47 <ehird> That was a summary of:
02:14:54 <ehird> [01:10] ehird: (a) sure, just handle that in whatever global configuration system you desire, be it vi /etc/blah or gnome-whatever — just either have sane defaults if possible (or omit options entirely if it won't work without; just have a commented out template) and, if you must, alert the user in the install script
02:14:54 <ehird> [01:10] ehird: (b) good point, but is this really a big deal? you could copy the default config somewhere, but generally the user's current config will work
02:14:54 <ehird> [01:10] ehird: (and notify the user of its location)
02:14:54 <ehird> [01:10] ehird: if there are backwards incompatible changes, yeah, i guess you should say "HEY USER FIX THIS", but I don't think the existing merge systems can handle syntax changes or whatever
02:15:13 <ehird> the last line is the dissatisfactory part, (b) is the trivial part, and (b) is also the rarely-happens part
02:16:45 <ehird> but, really, i'd love for you to prove me wrong; then i can stop being pissed off that everyone else is overcomplicating things so much
02:20:34 <ehird> coppro: you aren't proving me wrong :(
02:21:05 <ehird> THAT'S WHAT THEY A;; SAY
02:26:40 <ehird> should be simple, easy, fun, usable. ha ha ha as if
02:38:16 <pikhq> Gentoo has a script for merging any changes in config files.
02:38:32 <pikhq> If you don't execute the script, it leaves your config files the hell alone.
02:38:34 <ehird> any? lemme guess, a generic merge tool
02:38:43 <ehird> how often is script execution done?
02:38:49 <ehird> i mean, on average
02:39:13 <ehird> I get the feeling that generally, merging is unneeded, and when it's needed it's either really easy to do or a complete renovation, which can't be automated without a lot of pain
02:39:14 <pikhq> I do it every time I upgrade, but that's just me being rather careful & paranoid. How often do most do that?
02:39:20 <pikhq> Uh... Very, very rarely.
02:39:56 <ehird> rightyhothen, won't be needing none of that
02:40:10 <pikhq> Generally when the build hands out a message saying "The format of the config file changed in X manner. Go over your old configuration and make it work."
02:40:27 <ehird> hmm, it's annoying that I can only really optimise for i686
02:40:38 <ehird> because everything above that in the kernel is cpu-specific, right?
02:40:44 <ehird> i.e., not just a "anything not ancient, goddamn"
02:44:59 <ehird> btw: wired ~1.5 Mb/s internet with ~85 ms latency kicks the shit out of 3G.
02:45:28 <ehird> especially since it isn't 15 £ / 1 fucking GiB
02:45:50 <ehird> (currency is too an SI unit)
02:46:26 <pikhq> BTW, if you're going to be doing the static Linux thing, ehird -- glibc sucks ass for static linking.
02:46:37 <pikhq> (namely, it's incapable of doing it properly)
02:46:37 <ehird> you think i'd use glibc?
02:46:46 <ehird> MAYBE I'll use eglibc for programs that absolutely demand it
02:47:03 <pikhq> Eglibc at least fixes the whole "can't do static linking" bit.
02:47:06 <ehird> but glibc? no chance in hell
02:47:20 <ehird> heck, I'm hoping I can just use gcc for the kernel
02:47:30 <ehird> and compile the rest with clang
02:47:34 <ehird> (wonder if clang has baggage if you do static linking)
02:47:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 24" isn't large.
02:47:53 <ehird> lol out of context etc
02:48:01 <pikhq> Well, I hope you don't have a burning itch for something written in C++.
02:48:13 <pikhq> (fortunately, not much that I don't think you'd be using)
02:48:16 <ehird> pikhq: clang does "semi-okay" c++ i believe
02:48:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: That's the opposite of what she said!
02:48:36 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, but I seem to recall that it breaks at least some things.
02:48:41 <ehird> webkit is pretty important.
02:48:47 <pikhq> On the other hand, clang has built Webkit and KDE, so...
02:49:02 <pikhq> Guess those are the two *largest* things anyone will be building that use C++.
02:49:05 <ehird> apparently clang can't compile itself
02:49:26 <ehird> pikhq: latest gcc doesn't do a.out, yeah?
02:49:38 <pikhq> They very recently stopped supporting it, yeah.
02:49:48 <ehird> wonderful, frozen in time
02:49:54 <pikhq> And I'm not sure what LLVM can do.
02:49:57 <ehird> oh well, I'm sure the kernel will compile with it for years
02:50:11 <pikhq> You can still build the kernel with GCC 2, I think.
02:50:25 <pikhq> I know they still *support* GCC 3...
02:50:57 <ehird> pikhq: I was thinking "cool, I can use google's gold linker for speed" but then I realised (a) gold is ELF-only (b) static linking takes like a millisecond
02:51:16 <ehird> llvm uses the platform's linker, I think
02:51:20 <ehird> so a.out should be no trouble
02:51:38 <pikhq> The gold linker supports plugins.
02:51:45 <pikhq> Such as using LLVM for link-time optimization.
02:52:07 <ehird> pikhq: one issue is coreutils type things
02:52:16 <pikhq> So, just add -emit-llvm to your CFLAGS for everything, and you get a lot of link-time optimization.
02:52:21 <ehird> not gonna use gnu coreutils, don't think the bsd ones will work out of the box, and busybox is way too minimal
02:52:26 <ehird> everything else is probably niche and unmaintaine
02:52:39 <pikhq> The NetBSD ones almost certainly will work out of the box.
02:52:39 <coppro> ehird: I believe clang can do the kernel too; not sure
02:52:47 <ehird> i think porting a bsd's and going from there will be the best idea
02:52:55 <ehird> (the BSD coreutils are good, but not perfect)
02:52:59 <ehird> pikhq: interesting
02:53:13 <ehird> coppro: I find that *highly* unlikely; it can compile FreeBSD, though
02:53:23 <ehird> and even that isn't as stable as gcc
02:53:27 <ehird> and this is due to work, iirc
02:53:32 <coppro> ehird: clang's C support is very good
02:53:38 <ehird> I think the clang guys are trying to make the kernel work with it
02:53:39 <pikhq> Linux is very hard to compile; they are very, very GCC-specific.
02:53:42 <ehird> Summary: [META] Compiling the Linux kernel with clang
02:53:59 <ehird> linux is like 40% fucked up gcc bullshit
02:54:10 <ehird> http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=4068
02:54:14 <ehird> Created an attachment (id=3486) [details]
02:54:14 <ehird> patch to Linux kernel to build with clang
02:54:18 <ehird> doesn't boot yet though
02:54:21 <pikhq> Clang supports commonly used GCC stuff.
02:54:23 <ehird> and that was only last month
02:54:25 <ehird> and requires patching
02:54:29 <pikhq> Linux's GCC stuff is unique to GCC.
02:54:45 <ehird> pikhq: on the other hand,
02:54:46 <ehird> http://llvm.org/bugs/attachment.cgi?id=2897
02:54:50 <ehird> http://llvm.org/bugs/attachment.cgi?id=3486
02:54:52 <coppro> from the looks of that, they're close
02:54:56 <ehird> is apparently all you need for it to build with clang
02:54:58 <ehird> but booting isn't happening yet
02:55:05 <pikhq> I can't imagine they'd be very far by now.
02:55:06 <ehird> coppro: anyway, it won't be stable for a while, I'm almost sure
02:55:15 <pikhq> Clang has shaped up to be a very good compiler.
02:55:19 <coppro> ehird: they just issued a production-ready release
02:55:21 <ehird> very far from the end, ic
02:55:38 <ehird> so what, it still can't compile a booting kernel
02:55:39 <coppro> not for C++, obvoiusly, but for C and Obj-C
02:55:43 <ehird> and production ready for X != production ready for kernel
02:55:50 <ehird> also, webkit and kde can build with it, apparently
02:55:53 * pikhq wonders if llvm-gcc can build a functioning kernel
02:55:56 <coppro> you just said it wouldn't be stable, and I wanted to disagree!
02:55:57 <ehird> good enough for me as far as C++ goes
02:56:00 <ehird> pikhq: click the damn bugzilla link
02:56:04 <ehird> it needs two more patches than clang
02:56:08 <ehird> coppro: not stable FOR THE KERNEL
02:56:16 <ehird> or do you think as soon as it boots it'll be a stable kernel
02:56:17 <pikhq> ehird: I just started.
02:56:26 <ehird> if so, um, have you ever read the kernel source
02:56:47 <ehird> I'm just worried that statically linked llvm binaries will be huge
02:57:01 <pikhq> Why would they be?
02:57:16 <ehird> support functions and stuff; I just doubt it's really been tested
02:57:35 <ehird> I wonder how big a total llvm+clang toolchain is vs binutils/gcc
02:58:03 * coppro could try to compare, but he's lazy
02:58:04 <pikhq> At least judging from my experience building llvm+clang and binutils/gcc, llvm+clang is at least signficantly faster to *compile*.
02:58:21 <coppro> yes, llvm+clang is far faster to build and to execute
02:58:42 <coppro> and doesn't have a hobbled-together artificial type system
02:58:48 <ehird> which is a relief; I don't expect to provide a kde package, but webkit releases are, I think, quite often
02:59:24 <coppro> you could use EDG to compile the kernel :P
02:59:26 <ehird> i'll probably maintain the distro by having a huge tree with every package's source, install/uninstall files and any additioanl files to install, rsync, and mk
02:59:35 <coppro> just to say you don't use GCC
02:59:44 <ehird> just have a huge mkfile that includes all the others (which I'll craft myself)
02:59:49 <pikhq> Hmm. So, llvm-gcc doesn't build Linux because Linux relies on .code16gcc.
02:59:53 <pikhq> Holy crap. That's awful.
03:00:02 <ehird> of course, the package mkfiles will do "make clean"
03:00:04 <ehird> for the actual packages
03:00:12 <ehird> so each package upgrade is a clean build
03:00:19 <pikhq> .code16gcc is the most crazy hack in GCC.
03:00:23 <ehird> but it'll handle only building packages i've updated the sources or additional files
03:00:29 <pikhq> And GCC supports a *lot* of crazy hacks.
03:00:50 <ehird> pikhq: i wish the bsds weren't so kernel-userspace wed, or I'd be using one :P
03:01:27 <ehird> I wonder how quickly WebKit compiles with clang (excluding link time, since, you know, static binaries/libraries)
03:01:35 <ehird> hooray for .a (does anyone even remember using .as recently?)
03:02:31 <pikhq> ehird: Well, you could check to see what Debian is doing to have a GNUy userspace on BSD. I can't imagine it being *that* crazy.
03:02:37 <pikhq> On the other hand, it is Debian...
03:02:46 <ehird> well, sure, you can compile just the kernel
03:02:53 <ehird> the point is that the bsd teams maintain the userspace AND the kernel
03:03:02 <coppro> ehird: Roughly 50% of the time on average I think
03:03:05 <ehird> so the kernel will be developed according to the userspace
03:03:19 <ehird> coppro: what's that in response to?
03:03:28 <coppro> ehird: you wondering how long WebKit takes to compile
03:03:41 <coppro> though GCC can be massively sped up with precompiled headers
03:03:42 <ehird> 50% of time as with gcc, that is?
03:03:47 <ehird> i don't know how long it takes with gcc, really :)
03:03:57 <ehird> 30 minutes? two hours?
03:04:01 <coppro> Clang currently doesn't support precompiled headers for C++ and it's not on the todo list
03:04:18 <coppro> ehird: I'd guess ~35, but that's pretty random and arbitrary
03:04:40 <ehird> so ~17.5 minutes with llvm/clang
03:04:43 <ehird> does that include link time? I imagine so
03:04:53 <ehird> linking large shared libraries takes like 5 years
03:05:20 <ehird> hmm, that's a good point; anyone know any a.out linkers that can be compiled without dynamic linking support and aren't made by gnu?
03:05:45 <ehird> hmm, llvm-ld can link?
03:05:50 <ehird> only llvm things, obviously
03:06:01 <ehird> The llvm-ld program has limited support for native code generation, when using the -native or -native-cbe options. Native code generation is performed by converting the linked bitcode into native assembly (.s) or C code and running the system compiler (typically gcc) on the result.
03:06:42 <pikhq> gold supports LLVM and native linking...
03:06:51 <ehird> gold also only supports ELF.
03:06:58 <pikhq> That's kinda lame.
03:07:05 <ehird> Well, that's why it's fast.
03:07:16 <ehird> And speed optimisations don't really matter when everything is static...
03:07:22 <ehird> Since a static linker is, you know, really trivial.
03:07:36 <ehird> Like three steps removed from cat.
03:07:52 <pikhq> Gold supports doing optimisation at link time *instead* of compile-time, FWIW...
03:08:08 <ehird> Yes; seems like a lot of complexity for little gain.
03:08:12 <ehird> I wonder how much stuff assumes /usr exists.
03:08:21 <pikhq> Though, so does llvm-ld.
03:08:28 <pikhq> Just a bit more pain to get working.
03:08:37 <ehird> llvm-ld doesn't actually make a native code executable, though
03:08:40 <ehird> at least, from what i gather
03:08:43 <ehird> it makes an llvm bitcode file
03:09:07 <pikhq> And you can then compile that. Yeah. That's what makes it a pain.
03:09:23 <ehird> Yes. Beats the pain of using gcc, though.
03:09:36 <ehird> In fact, a regular user development system won't include gcc, hopefully.
03:09:36 <coppro> and makes compiling for different platforms easy
03:09:45 <bsmntbombdood> xscreensaver-command: no screensaver is running on display :0.0
03:09:46 <ehird> Of course, you can install it if you want to compile an odd program that requires it.
03:10:13 <ehird> In fact, I wonder if there's even any GNU software a typical system willl run...
03:10:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so run two
03:10:50 <coppro> ehird: you could distribute packages in llvm bitcode and have the package system build them as they arrive - it's a short step and would make things 1000000000x easier
03:10:56 <bsmntbombdood> xscreensaver: 20:10:50: already running on display :0.0 (window 0x1c00002)
03:11:30 <ehird> coppro: But it shouldn't matter what's LLVM and what's not. Currently, my package manager's updating/installing process would consist of rsync and running a shell script.
03:11:36 <ehird> Why would that help, iincidentally?
03:11:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ah, bad software
03:11:49 <ehird> lemme look at xscreensaver's site
03:11:51 <coppro> ehird: then you don't need to deal with ~8 platforms to build on
03:11:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:12:00 <ehird> coppro: ah, uh, i'm meant to support non-x86?
03:12:04 <ehird> nobody informed me of this :)
03:12:19 <ehird> coppro: well, I'm only targeting desktop machines and maybe servers
03:12:20 <ehird> besides, I'd still need the infrastructure for binaries
03:12:31 <ehird> so it basically comes down to disk space; the bitcode format adds more complexitty
03:12:36 <Sgeo> Is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html still up for anyone but me?
03:12:39 <ehird> thankfully, migrating to that should be easy
03:12:53 <coppro> you could also make the server do the bitcode compilation ondemand - even more complex though
03:13:31 <pikhq> coppro: That's a stupid idea, anyways.
03:13:32 <ehird> ugh, the xscreensaver faq says nothing
03:13:43 <pikhq> The bitcode generated by C compilers is target-specific.
03:14:06 <ehird> then yes, that is a stupid idae
03:14:12 <coppro> fine then, store output in llvm assembly code
03:14:14 <pikhq> Because sizeof( ) is done by the C compiler.
03:14:31 <pikhq> Oh, and *everything* that implies...
03:14:48 <ehird> store the output in llvm assembly? that still has sizeof() issues
03:14:52 <ehird> and is leaning further to a source distro!
03:14:59 <pikhq> That would at least work if you were dealing with a language that's not C-esque.
03:15:01 <coppro> ehird: yeah, I said that before he said his objection
03:15:22 <coppro> now, it's worth pointing out if the entire system were built that same way, it would work
03:15:27 <ehird> heh, amusingly, turning it into a source distro would be easy enough
03:15:38 <ehird> point the package manager to a local source instead of an rsync://
03:15:47 <ehird> and just set up the package build environment
03:15:50 <ehird> + download aaaaaaaaaaaall of it
03:15:57 <ehird> of course, keeping the source in sync is then your responsibility
03:16:02 <ehird> and like hell will you get any support...
03:16:09 <bsmntbombdood> upgraded xscreensaver and now it works properly :P
03:16:13 <coppro> ehird: you wouldn't give support in any place
03:16:18 <ehird> *bsmntbombdood: like magic!
03:16:34 <coppro> ehird: your history of being a jerk
03:16:34 <ehird> i'm perfectly happy to help people who don't do stupid stuff to their system
03:16:49 <ehird> plenty of other people are jerks and still offer support
03:17:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Xsession or something
03:17:42 <coppro> your wm may also have an autostart system
03:17:59 <ehird> coppro: anyway, as long as you don't pretend you know more about the problem than you do and didn't do something really stupid, I'm happy to offer civil help... I'm not always a jerk, you know :P
03:18:05 <ehird> also, bsmntbombdood uses ion
03:18:09 <ehird> i somehow doubt it has such a thing
03:18:52 <ehird> hmm, forgot to include "install dependency packages" in my mental model of a package install
03:19:20 <pikhq> Eh, not necessarily needed.
03:19:28 <pikhq> Slackware seems to do just fine without it.
03:19:31 <ehird> should probably dump a really trivial dependency map elsewhere, too, so that i can remove unused packages
03:19:40 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, but installing packages in slackware is a bitch.
03:20:05 <coppro> I've got a new bad idea
03:20:25 <coppro> how about a distro where there's no packages and every program brings its dependencies along with it?
03:20:27 <coppro> wait... that's Windows
03:20:32 <ehird> simple way to solve the "the autoremover thing wants to remove packages I explicitly installed!" thing: a fake package, say _explicit or something, depends on every package you explicitly install
03:20:40 <ehird> (and is a null package otherwise; not on disk, just in the dependency map)
03:20:43 <pikhq> coppro: Been done.
03:20:48 <ehird> bonus: lets you ask it what packages you explicitly installed
03:20:53 <ehird> coppro: that's not windows, that's OS X
03:20:58 <ehird> and it works quite well, fwiw
03:21:10 <ehird> like, it's the same thing as static binaries, really
03:21:12 <coppro> how is that not windows?
03:21:22 <ehird> windows shit often puts stuff in shared directories and the like
03:21:28 <ehird> whereas OS X things almost universally have it all inside the .app bundle
03:21:35 <pikhq> Windows puts stuff in shared directories haphazardly.
03:21:41 <pikhq> Without regard for breaking anything.
03:21:43 <coppro> I didn't say it necessarily kept those dependencies to itself
03:21:50 <pikhq> OS X has almost everything in the .app bundle.
03:21:57 <ehird> coppro: well, then that is of course a horrid idae
03:22:08 <pikhq> And Linux assumes that what it needs has been installed already.
03:22:17 <pikhq> (well, or makes sure it gets installed)
03:22:39 <ehird> proprietary software on linux is a bitch
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03:22:49 <ehird> thankfully, that's pretty much... mathematica and games
03:22:52 <coppro> the independent dependency model is fine as long as disk space is not a concern
03:22:59 <ehird> linf: ha, we caught you
03:23:09 <ehird> linf: Mr Russian music... is in #tokipona, and is n=nikita
03:23:10 <coppro> ehird: and mathematica isn't needed any more :P
03:23:11 <pikhq> coppro: It at least works, yes.
03:23:16 <ehird> linf: IS THAT YOU, LAMENT
03:23:22 <ehird> you trolling scoundrel, you
03:23:26 <ehird> coppro: replaced by what
03:23:48 <ehird> lament: he was in here ages ago, being oblivious to the purpose of this channel and beingn incomprehensible.
03:23:59 <ehird> I guess the .ru should have tipped off that it isn't you, though
03:24:06 <ehird> but n=nikita + #esoteric + #tokipona seemed a fair beet
03:24:14 <lament> wow, that's pretty cool
03:24:48 <ehird> lament: he doesn't actually know what this channel is for, I think he tried talking about russian folk music or something before, but i couldn't tell. admittedly it might be another linf
03:24:51 <ehird> but i doubt _that_
03:25:01 <linf> lament: hahahahaha
03:25:03 <ehird> coppro: sure, for the pure mathematics stuff
03:25:08 <ehird> mathematica is still useful for some things though
03:25:13 <ehird> plus, more importantly, it's fun
03:25:36 * coppro has not really used mathematica
03:26:00 <ehird> e.g. opening up images, applying various transformations, hooking it up into stuff from the web, then doing statistics on them and the like
03:26:10 <ehird> just a sort of "unified analysis and munging environment"
03:26:17 <coppro> mathematica does that? O_o
03:26:18 <ehird> quite entertaining with the right data set
03:26:29 <ehird> coppro: yes, and it also connects to wolfram's servers to download a ton of data really fast
03:26:34 <ehird> e.g. historical gdps, and the like
03:26:38 <ehird> in a tiny function call
03:26:52 <ehird> i dislike wolfram, and mathematica is really, really slow; but it's an awful lot of fun
03:27:23 <ehird> lament: btw, did linf just find your name hilarious?
03:28:56 <ehird> hmm... proprietary graphics drivers are usually modules, right?
03:29:04 <ehird> but you can link module binaries into the kernel, if i'm not mistaken
03:29:21 <coppro> you can compile modules in or load them at runtime
03:29:31 <ehird> I explicitly want to leave out the module support
03:29:45 <ehird> the runtime loading, that is
03:29:55 <ehird> since they're basically dynamic libraries, except in the kernel, which is an even less fun prospect than in userspace.
03:30:10 <coppro> oh right, you're mr. static
03:30:23 <ehird> for good reason! i'm welcome to hear arguments for kernel modules.
03:30:26 <coppro> fine, as long as you include fuse
03:30:51 <ehird> fuse is a bit slow
03:31:12 <ehird> by a bit i mean really
03:31:15 <coppro> you don't use fuse for normal filesystems
03:31:21 <coppro> you use fuse for stuff like mounting an ftp server
03:31:53 <ehird> (which pisses me off; there's no good way to have a proper ntfs driver in the kernel nowadays)
03:32:41 <ehird> coppro: anyway, if fuse doesn't increase the kernel size too much, I'll stronly consider it
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03:33:06 <ehird> (although I do wonder if there's a 9P mounter thingy for the kernel)
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03:33:12 <ehird> that'd certainly be simpler
03:33:15 <coppro> hmm... you know what would be cool
03:33:17 <pikhq> The kernel has 9P support.
03:33:25 <pikhq> I don't know how good it is, but it does have 9P support.
03:33:31 <ehird> coppro: a pony? totally
03:33:35 <ehird> pikhq: huh, really?
03:34:05 <ehird> i wonder if anyone's made an X11-compatible thing that's better than X yet. ha ha, only joking.
03:34:07 <coppro> /usr/bin is a fuse filesystem where attempting to run an executable that isn't installed automatically prompts to install, installs if requested, and then runs
03:34:17 <coppro> ehird: isn't that by definition impossible?
03:34:38 <ehird> coppro: you'd think so, but the current Xorg is really terrible
03:34:44 <ehird> you could, at least, majorly clean it up and have minor functionality imprrovements
03:34:53 <ehird> should be possible to debloat Xorg, though. with enough effort. sigh
03:34:57 <pikhq> The amazing thing about Xorg is that it's an improvement over the past.
03:35:01 <coppro> ehird: then you should have said Xorg, not X
03:35:09 <ehird> yeah yeah whatever
03:35:25 <ehird> maybe I'll just only compile in the new-fangled thingy that only the unstable intel drivers support
03:35:32 <pikhq> (amazing and very, very scary)
03:35:37 <ehird> after all, the proprietary ATI driver doesn't support old cards at all nowadays
03:35:43 <ehird> that is — cards that were commonly used IN 2006
03:36:01 <ehird> coppro: You stab fglrx, but have you used the open source drivers?
03:36:07 <ehird> So. Amazingly. Slow.
03:36:14 <coppro> ehird: yeah, but they were stable
03:36:29 <ehird> Yeah, stable, but the jagged artifacts when moving a window slowly...
03:36:33 <ehird> Horrible. Just horrible.
03:36:40 <coppro> you can always disable compositing
03:36:49 <ehird> It was the same regardless.
03:36:54 <ehird> That's how slow they are.
03:36:55 <coppro> nothing that bad when I used it
03:37:12 <ehird> coppro: also, no way in hell will i use xfree86
03:37:21 <coppro> fglrx would hang if I attempted to run anything as difficult as glxgears
03:37:25 <ehird> the license change shows them to be complete buffoons. plus it's totally dead and there aren't any drivers for it etc.
03:37:30 <coppro> granted, half the time the open-source ones would simply give up at glxgears
03:37:46 <coppro> but at least they didn't randomly cause me to have to reboot
03:37:56 <ehird> coppro: fglrx DROPPED SUPPORT for my card from 2006. and I couldn't use an old version. Why? Because the only version supporting the new X11 version doesn't support my card.
03:38:09 <ehird> so, ATI to users of my card: Buy a new card or fuck off.
03:38:31 <ehird> At least they released their hardware specs.
03:38:59 <ehird> nvidia have better proprietary drivers, but ATI support the OSS drivers more
03:39:27 <Ilari> Jagged artifacts? Bottom and top of window not moving in sync?
03:39:38 <ehird> Ilari: basically the whole window out of sync, yeah
03:39:53 <ehird> for windows of any size, even dialogs
03:40:40 <ehird> incidentally, anyone have any strong opinions on the default (and "official") FS to use?
03:40:58 <coppro> I'm a fan of ext though
03:40:59 <Ilari> The bottom and top not being in sync is caused by lack of syncing the updates to Vretrace.
03:41:28 <ehird> I'm leaning towards JFS; it doesn't seem to be hugely actively developed, but it's not abandoned, and it's like XFS, except it doesn't like to lose data on crashes, and is way faster at metadata (including creating files, etc) operations, making it one of the fastest "real" linux filesystems
03:41:46 <ehird> and the fsck takes *3 seconds* — and that's when it has to recover some data
03:41:50 <ehird> (and it recovers very well)
03:41:57 <ehird> it only takes 2 seconds for less data to recover
03:42:04 <ehird> and presumably almost nil time if there's nothing to do
03:42:57 <ehird> I'm pretty much not considering ext because I hate the multiple-minute fsck times more then the plague
03:43:23 <Ilari> And apparently JFS supports SELinux...
03:43:37 <ehird> not really planning to use selinux, though
03:43:50 <ehird> way too much fuss, too little gain; save the capability-based security for ehirdOS
03:43:52 <coppro> ext fsck isn't usually very long if there's no corruption
03:44:00 <ehird> coppro: if you have a tiny disk
03:44:01 <coppro> if there's problems, though...
03:44:06 <ehird> it takes about 3 minutes, all the time, for me
03:44:16 <ehird> and longer if it has to fix stuff
03:44:28 <ehird> compared to that, 3 seconds when the system hard reset while doing stuff is godly
03:44:56 <coppro> how big is your disk?!
03:45:16 <ehird> um, this one? 250 GB
03:45:40 <ehird> though the 3 minute figure is from the old PC, which has a 500 GB disk (and partition)
03:45:48 <ehird> since I don't use linux on this, at least not for extended periods of time
03:46:08 <ehird> it had a consumer-level Athlon when doing that, though, and 2 GiB of RAM
03:46:15 <ehird> so it's definitely the fsck being the bottleneck
03:46:19 <ehird> (and the 500 GB disk is 7200 rpm)
03:47:59 <Ilari> If windows get severe jagged atefacts when moving, the video drivers must REALLY suck. I can only get some artefacts on this computer, video driver is pretty much the suckiest (fb) and hardware sucks hard.
03:48:18 <ehird> yeah; it's the non-radeonhd (radeonhd doesn't work) open source one
03:48:21 <ehird> called ati or radeon
03:48:31 <coppro> ehird: this is 250GB, but it is partitioned
03:48:40 <ehird> hardware is a radeon x1600, like a mid-range notebook card from 2006
03:48:50 <ehird> releassed in 2005 i think
03:49:07 <ehird> Ilari: i mean, it's not hugely severe, but if you look at the edges you definitely notice it every time
03:49:17 <Ilari> Heh... Moving window slowly uses something like 50% CPU.
03:50:29 <ehird> Tasty like faeces!
03:50:49 <coppro> Homer's second-best line!
03:51:18 <Ilari> One useful use of framebuffer. When X craps out (like if its keyboard driver(!) craps out), ALT-SYSRQ-R, ALT-F1.
03:51:29 <ehird> eh, I was going to quote The Odyssey
03:53:26 <Ilari> Yes, had keyboard driver of Xorg crap out... Without it working, CTRL-ALT-Fx doesn't work.
03:54:13 <ehird> hey, has xorg fixed graphics drivers so that if it craps out X doesn't die yet?
03:55:12 <coppro> Ilari: Alt + SysRq + R
03:55:31 <ehird> coppro: that's, like, the best thing about windows vista. not that that sets the bar terribly high
03:56:49 <ehird> there should be a usb peripheral for linux that's a magic wand like the wii remote thing, right, and you can do gestures to do magic sysrqs
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03:56:56 <ehird> hard-rebooting becomes merely a spell.
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03:58:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dwm is the best of breed of the xmonad-types
03:59:04 <ehird> well, dwm-types really
03:59:37 <ehird> very simple, no retarded the-config-file-is-the-program-also-it-depends-on-ghc-because-fuck-you-we-like-haskell-config stuff, and yeah.
04:00:59 <ehird> NEW dwm creates a view for each Xinerama screen.
04:01:04 <ehird> so it should work well with multihead setups.
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04:12:18 * pikhq notes that "the-config-file-is-the-program" would work much much better if Haskell had an eval function...
04:12:52 <pikhq> Though the closest you get to eval in Haskell is linking against GHC so you can use GHC's libraries to create a (small) interpreter.
04:13:09 <ehird> xmonad just compiles the config file
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04:13:20 <pikhq> Yes. I'm well aware.
04:13:22 <ehird> you know, I thought I knew C fairly well until I looked at some suckless code
04:13:30 <ehird> i think i'm not dumb enough
04:13:36 <pikhq> Should I read some?
04:13:36 <ehird> like, my mind creates too many abstractions ahead of itself
04:14:05 <ehird> pikhq: Absolutely. http://dl.suckless.org/dwm/dwm-5.7.2.tar.gz is dwm; dwm.c is 2018 lines long in total.
04:14:10 <ehird> and the only other code file is config.h
04:14:36 <pikhq> ehird: That's very impressive considering a) it's C b) it's C that *uses X11*.
04:14:39 <ehird> well, it's config.def.h technically, but you copy it to config.h and modify.
04:14:47 <ehird> pikhq: Absolutely.
04:15:07 <ehird> "To understand everything else, start reading main()." it gives a basic overview of some stuff before that, but I love that concept
04:15:11 <ehird> like, it's uber-procedural code
04:15:16 <ehird> so procedural that you can just follow from main to understand it
04:15:17 <pikhq> Also, this appears to be designed such that a straight Makefile is *actually sane*.
04:15:41 <ehird> they even make their manpage look easy :(
04:16:34 <pikhq> ... Holy crap that's nice C.
04:16:49 <pikhq> They make C look easy.
04:16:54 <pikhq> THEY MAKE C LOOK EASY.
04:17:07 <ehird> that was my reaction too :/
04:19:26 <pikhq> Is this... Is this what UNIX was meant to be?
04:19:54 <bsmntbombdood_> the very top, middle pixels are not visible on the monitor
04:21:14 <ehird> pikhq: the other programs whose code i think is very representative of suckless style are dmenu (menu selection/completion system; designed to be used to e.g. launch programs with dwm; http://dl.suckless.org/tools/dmenu-4.0.tar.gz) and ii (filesystem-based irc client; http://dl.suckless.org/tools/ii-1.4.tar.gz)
04:21:49 * pikhq would like to see suckless create a C compiler.
04:21:55 <ehird> well, sic is too, but it's a terminal-based IRC client in less than 250 lines, so it's not surprising that it's very simple
04:22:03 <ehird> pikhq: I think they'd point you to plan9's 9c :P
04:22:08 <pikhq> I'm imagining something similar to tcc.
04:22:13 <pikhq> Oh, right, plan9's C code.
04:22:18 <pikhq> That, too, is pretty nice.
04:22:55 <pikhq> It helps that they get a library better than libc to work with. ;)
04:23:06 <ehird> dmenu, I think, has their largest seeming-task-complexity : code-simplicity gap
04:23:16 <ehird> i.e., it's the code that seems the most like it should be more complex
04:24:37 <pikhq> "Many (open source) hackers are proud if they achieve large amounts of code, because they believe the more lines of code they've written, the more progress they have made." -- Suckless manifesto.
04:25:05 * pikhq notes that lines of code is more of an inverse metric.
04:25:40 <ehird> another good metric: count of data structures
04:25:43 <ehird> and size of data structures
04:25:56 <ehird> here's an example bot written for ii, incidentally:
04:25:58 <ehird> tail -f \\#<CHANNEL>/out |
04:25:58 <ehird> while read foo ; do
04:25:58 <ehird> name=$(echo $foo | awk '{print $2}' | sed 's,<\\(.*\\)>,\\1,')
04:25:59 <ehird> if awk 'BEGIN{srand(); exit rand()<.1)}' ; then
04:25:59 <ehird> echo "$name: WHAT??" ;
04:26:07 <ehird> substitute <CHANNEL>, obviously
04:26:27 <ehird> (and add #channel/in, too)
04:26:35 <pikhq> Heck, that's one of the things I like about Haskell: your code is succinct and can be very simple.
04:26:55 <ehird> haskell code tends to be complex because the environment around it isn't haskelly
04:27:05 <ehird> for algorithmic work, though, it's very simple
04:27:35 <ehird> oh man, I wonder how big static binaries made with gcc are
04:27:39 <ehird> probably at least 20 MiB
04:27:52 <pikhq> Depends on the libc.
04:28:00 <pikhq> If it's glibc, "very large".
04:28:41 <ehird> that's a point, I should pick a libc
04:28:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: define ths
04:29:06 <bsmntbombdood_> < bsmntbombdood_> the very top, middle pixels are not visible on the monitor
04:29:14 <ehird> define not visible
04:29:17 <ehird> covered by bezel? dead?
04:29:39 <ehird> your monitor manufacturer doesn't care about you
04:29:47 <ehird> so they decided to make it look shinier instead.
04:30:24 <ehird> Which sort is this?
04:30:49 <pikhq> Small program I wrote a few years back when I was just figuring out sorting algorithms in C.
04:30:51 <ehird> If it's GNU, then it gratuitously uses half of the standard library just because it can. Also, glibc is huge.
04:30:59 <ehird> right, static gnu sort would be way bigger
04:31:07 <ehird> I blame glibc, then
04:31:17 <pikhq> Glibc is freaking huge, yes.
04:31:44 <ehird> hmm... looks like my libc options are dietlibc or newlib
04:32:02 <ehird> Well, that's really embedded-targeted, isn't it?
04:32:06 <ehird> newlib is intended for embedded systems, but cygwin uses it as its libc
04:32:17 <ehird> and dietlibc, while mainly used on embedded devices, is optimised for small size
04:32:28 <ehird> (and omits uncommonly used functions)
04:32:53 <pikhq> uclibc's embedded support consists of the ability to disable uncommonly used functions.
04:32:58 <pikhq> And working on uclinux.
04:33:46 * ehird looks up newlib's license
04:33:54 <ehird> newlib is tempting because Cygwin uses it
04:34:05 <ehird> and Cygwin works with, well, not a lot, but that's Cygwin's fault
04:34:45 <ehird> well, it's also GPL, but the lib itself is LGPL, I gather
04:35:10 <ehird> dietlibc is... wait, what? GPL?
04:35:15 <pikhq> Newlib's main tempting property is that it has been shown that many things can *use* it.
04:35:41 <ehird> dietlibc is gpl, and it's intended only for static linking
04:35:45 <ehird> doesn't virility apply?
04:36:18 <ehird> that suxx big butt
04:36:26 <ehird> pikhq: heh, it's the readline argument, isn't it?
04:36:36 <ehird> what if I linked a third party program against it?
04:36:40 <ehird> are they violating the GPL?
04:37:06 <pikhq> It's... Very fucking irritating to resolve.
04:37:28 <ehird> yeah, well, copyright is fucked.
04:37:44 <pikhq> The LGPL's behavior in such cases is at least well-defined.
04:37:53 <ehird> but i don't want to play with fire. i don't believe in intellectual property, but that's for personal stuff
04:38:13 <pikhq> Then I guess dietlibc's out.
04:38:14 <ehird> such a shame, because dietlibc looks rather good
04:38:31 <ehird> oh, and it has a subsystem named libcruft
04:39:06 <ehird> and the code looks nice — I should stop before I get annoyed that it's GPL
04:39:35 <pikhq> uclibc is also apparently usable for 'most things'.
04:39:48 <ehird> Q: GPL sucks! Now I can't compile my BSD programs with the diet libc!
04:39:49 <ehird> A: Wrong. You can compile them, and you can use them. You just can't
04:39:49 <ehird> redistribute the binaries. If you are a distribution vendor and want
04:39:49 <ehird> to use the diet libc to make BSD licensed binaries for the install
04:39:49 <ehird> or rescue floppy which you sell commercially, please talk to me.
04:40:05 <ehird> eh, blow me, i don't give a fuck about your anti-commercial bent, i just want to make a distro
04:40:25 <pikhq> ... Even Stallman doesn't support using the GPL for such a case.
04:40:41 <pikhq> More extreme than Stallman regarding free software = *facepalm*
04:40:48 <ehird> Q: Can I compile or use the diet libc with a compiler that is not gcc?
04:40:48 <ehird> A: Compile: no. Use: yes.
04:40:48 <ehird> ALSO, BLOW ME AGAIN
04:40:52 <ehird> admittedly probably most are like that
04:41:00 <ehird> does it even make sense to compile a libc with clang/llvm?
04:41:20 <pikhq> I don't see why not.
04:41:29 <ehird> llvm does have some overhead, yeah?
04:42:04 <ehird> So, it's uClibc vs newlib.
04:42:14 <pikhq> The only "overhead" is that LLVM "produces very slightly slower" code than GCC.
04:42:15 <ehird> In computing, uClibc is a small C standard library intended for embedded Linux systems. uClibc was created to support uClinux, a version of Linux not requiring a memory management unit and thus suited for microcontrollers (uCs; the "u" is a romanization of μ for "micro").[2]
04:42:24 <ehird> so, clearly uClibc's development focus will be embeddedness
04:42:33 <pikhq> (GCC has some optimisations that LLVM doesn't)
04:42:44 <ehird> LLVM produces better code in some cases, though.
04:42:50 <ehird> Or at least, clang.
04:43:02 <ehird> 5 May 2009, SVN -> GIT
04:43:02 <ehird> We've migrated from SVN to GIT. SVN is frozen read-only before the conversion, so check out the Developing links and such for updated instructions.
04:43:02 <ehird> well, the uclibc guys are modern...
04:43:09 <ehird> newlib is a red hat project with all that entails
04:43:23 <ehird> "uClibc++" hey that's nice, a C++ lib too
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04:44:22 <ehird> "The GNU C library is a great piece of software, make no mistake." —uclibc FAQ
04:44:49 <ehird> "So uClibc is smaller then glibc? Doesn't that mean it completely sucks? How could it be smaller and not suck?"
04:44:49 <ehird> i think i'm going to start calling such things "strawman FAQs"
04:45:35 <pikhq> Still, uclibc seems to function well for a system libc.
04:45:48 <ehird> the faq is very embedded-oriented, it seems
04:45:56 <ehird> and it seems that uclibc is gcc-only
04:46:04 <ehird> that is, you have to build uclibc-using programs with gcc.
04:46:31 <pikhq> So's many things that clang builds just fine. ;)
04:46:44 <ehird> true, but the gcc is *patched*
04:46:47 <pikhq> clang supports most of GNU C, you know.
04:46:52 <ehird> you need a patched gcc to build uclibc binariess.
04:46:58 <ehird> even just binaries that use it
04:47:00 <pikhq> Never mind. newlib it is!
04:47:53 <ehird> Plus eglibc for broken programs.
04:48:00 <ehird> (STRFRY() OLOLOLO)
04:50:44 <ehird> this should be easy, then.
04:50:54 <ehird> one thing I'm unsure of how to handle is permutations of kernel configs
04:51:06 <ehird> the main distros usually solve this by a whole shitload of modules, plus a really large base kernel config, but that sucks
04:52:09 <pikhq> Very large kernel or "build one".
04:52:20 <pikhq> (which sucks less, I wonder...)
04:53:15 <ehird> methinks I'll just include what people actually use as far as drivers go, plus perhaps separate kernel packages for graphics drivers, as they're the only big proprietary kind of thing, everything else should work ootb
04:53:29 <ehird> otherwise, build one, it should be quite easy with the package system
04:54:00 <ehird> pikhq: Think I should use TuxOnIce? It's one of the hibernate/restore systems; apparently it can hibernate and restore in just seconds, which sure as hell beats the S2 stuff.
04:54:07 <ehird> Fedora uses it, I believe.
04:54:28 <ehird> Thing is, you have to patch the kernel.
04:55:31 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_T4ZcPkqVA it's still quite slow, though...
04:55:51 <ehird> coming from an OS X background where it takes about 3 seconds either way
04:56:02 <ehird> 'cause it uses a hybrid suspend/hibernate
04:58:00 <ehird> wonder how big my kernel will be
04:58:09 <ehird> i bet around 2 MiB
05:00:15 <ehird> okay, so that's most things sorted
05:01:02 <ehird> of course, I need to find a decent linux system from which to develop it...
05:08:17 <ehird> Doo doo doo, ood ood ood
05:08:33 <ehird> Clearly I should use LFS to build it! No. No.
05:10:50 * ehird looks up what mailing list software suckless.org uses
05:11:13 <ehird> mlmmj. "maling list management made joyful". Cute name.
05:11:32 <ehird> It didn't make me rage when I wanted to post to it without receiving replies, so that's good.
05:21:20 <ehird> come to the dwm side! we have cookies. uh, actually, we don't. we have... lots of code? hmm. we don't have much actually
05:21:29 <ehird> i have this stick if you want it.
05:21:38 <ehird> it's a good stick!
05:21:57 <fax> haskell: gives you the willies
05:22:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
05:22:25 <ehird> nothing wrong with haskell, something wrong with using it as a configuration language thouh
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05:31:38 <Oranjer> a donkey shaved as one shaves a poodle?
05:31:51 <ehird> a donkey that is a poode
05:32:06 <ehird> "skvm is a lightweight volume manager for GNU/Linux. It depends on hal and dbus."
05:32:13 <ehird> why is this on the suckless code server
05:32:15 <ehird> i mean hal and dbus, really?
05:32:28 <ehird> i'm not talking to you
05:33:39 <ehird> fax: yes your momm.
05:34:55 <pikhq> I could've sworn HAL sucked sufficiently that most everyone was trying to replace it...
05:35:31 <ehird> and dbus is pretty heavyweight when you can just use more lightweight IPC
05:35:34 <ehird> by pretty i mean really
05:35:50 <ehird> all it needs now is to require udev too :-P
05:36:40 <pikhq> Dbus is meant work sanely with GNOME and KDE... So, yeah, it's obviously going to be pretty heavyweight.
05:39:20 <ehird> maybe i need to write an email client that sucks less, since all of them have such retarded approaches to threading
05:39:44 <pikhq> I could've sworn that threading in general had retarded approaches. ;)
05:39:54 <ehird> not that kind of threading. :P
05:40:17 <Oranjer> well, ehird, what's your approach to threading?
05:40:28 <ehird> i mean mail threading, fwiw
05:40:41 <Oranjer> what's your idea(s) about it?
05:41:18 <ehird> Oranjer: threads don't nest, messages are displayed linear by date in one thread unit. optionally, I guess, above this, a reflection of where you are in the thread that scrolls with you that nests like a regular nested thread tree.
05:41:31 <ehird> just like gmail, except with that extra panel to make sense of complex threads
05:41:55 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving").
05:42:08 <Oranjer> although I totally don't understand the optional reflection
05:42:28 <ehird> you know email clients that support threadin
05:42:32 <ehird> they just show a tree of authors/subjects/dates
05:42:37 <ehird> in the select-message list
05:42:41 <ehird> not the message itself
05:42:52 <ehird> basically, one of them above the linear thread, except when you scroll to the next messae
05:43:03 <ehird> the reflection scrolls with you
05:43:07 <ehird> so you can see the nesting around you
05:43:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: various things, see:
05:43:19 <ehird> http://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html
05:43:32 <Oranjer> I presume the nesting refers to replies?
05:43:39 <ehird> In-Reply-To, and References. Sometimes titles.
05:44:19 <ehird> there'll be a key in the inbox to switch from just-show-the-threads-and-not-the-replies (click to open it where you get into the view I just subscribed) and show-every-message-most-recent-first
05:44:26 <ehird> since the latter is useful e.g. when recordkeeping a nomic
05:44:31 <ehird> since you have to know exactly what happened after what
05:46:56 <ehird> when you click on a thread in the message list
05:47:04 <ehird> it shrinks, the linear-thread appears below
05:47:10 <ehird> and the thread in the list expands
05:47:13 <ehird> and starts scrolling with you
05:47:18 <ehird> that way, switching threads is just a click
05:47:31 <ehird> (if you scroll manually, it'll stop scrolling with you until you scroll it back into view)
05:48:11 <ehird> with the no-threading mode, it'll be the same, except expanding will do nothing since no message will have replies represented, and the linear one will just display one message
05:48:19 <ehird> (and, of course, no auto-scrolling)
05:50:33 <ehird> i think i lost you
05:50:53 <ehird> "uh-huh" seems like "ooooh kayyy" to me :P
05:51:06 <ehird> well, one underneath the other, probably
05:51:20 <Oranjer> I dunno, both are going "down", right?
05:51:43 <Oranjer> it just makes more sense to me to put them side by side, while using english
05:51:46 <ehird> it's just that subjects can be quote long; add the date and name fields...
05:52:04 <ehird> in fact people dislike that OS X's Mail can only do it underneath, and there's more than one plugin that forces it the other way
05:52:09 <ehird> I'll have to experiment
05:52:30 <ehird> hmm... perhaps putting the list at the right when you select a message is the thing to do
05:52:44 <ehird> since it has to be big to be useful, it'd just take up space on the left
05:52:50 <ehird> and you'd have to shift your eyes to the right after clicking
05:52:56 <ehird> due to the thing you want to focus on moving
05:53:04 <ehird> but if it went at the right, you could just click and read
05:53:38 <ehird> dirty non-englishers
05:54:32 <Oranjer> in, say, arabic, does time flow from the right to the left? (in models and diagrams and such)
05:54:56 <ehird> I imagine so, at least pre-western influence
05:55:03 <ehird> post-, who knows? cultural osmosis is a powerful force
05:55:24 <ehird> and time-based diagrams probably weren't often used before the west came along and barged in, I imagine
05:55:30 <ehird> Oranjer: will get timelines about arabic
05:55:32 <Oranjer> "displaying time in arabic languages"
05:58:19 <Oranjer> I image searched some arabic-time things
05:58:32 <Oranjer> and I saw an image that reminded me of your threading idea
05:58:51 <Oranjer> of course, it's just a basic file-management scheme, but yeah, link
05:58:53 <Oranjer> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/arabicdev/dotnetservers/SQL/images/sql_ArabicSupport_08_thumb.gif
05:59:11 <Oranjer> *it reminded me, I know your idea is different
05:59:28 <ehird> I like that 1421 create date
05:59:31 <ehird> rockin' it old school
05:59:40 <ehird> fuck keyboard shit argh
06:01:33 <Oranjer> View the Solution FREE for 30 Days
06:03:57 <Oranjer> it seems your theory was right, that I can't find any timelines made by Arabic-speaking people
06:04:02 <Oranjer> but that just seems absurd
06:04:09 <Oranjer> I mean, there were Arabic astronomers
06:04:22 <ehird> Western norms seem obvious.
06:04:53 <Oranjer> obvious to us, because we read left-to-right and top-to-bottom
06:06:27 <ehird> western norms like "timelines"
06:06:59 <Oranjer> but when an Arabic historian writes a theoretical narrative
06:07:05 <Oranjer> he goes from right-to-left
06:07:18 <Oranjer> so what if he were to put a line, with dates, on the bottom?
06:07:28 <Oranjer> apparently, google tells me that never happened
06:07:53 <ehird> Well, just keep looking.
06:07:57 <ehird> Google is a bitch nowadays.
06:09:12 <Oranjer> mind you, I always had the idea that one could simultaneously search for phrases-the-same-but-for one word, and in each search, the search engine would replace it with a synonym
06:09:40 <Oranjer> like "forest of the dark", "woods of the dark", etc.
06:09:58 <ehird> will kill if there is e.g. a song named one of the synonyms
06:10:04 <ehird> of course you could have syntax to omit one synonym
06:10:09 <ehird> but i doubt it'd help searching that much
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06:10:54 <Oranjer> wait, do you mean my idea, or limiting the synonyms, wouldn't help searching?
06:12:41 <Oranjer> I dunno, I can see me using it for when I have an idea, and I want to check if someone else has already had it
06:13:02 <ehird> it's rather mechanical, though
06:13:05 <Oranjer> but! because we would have supposedly invent the idea independently of each other
06:13:06 <ehird> not much room for variation, and too much at the same time
06:13:15 <Oranjer> the terminology would be different
06:14:27 <Oranjer> of course, that would also produce too many searches for one line if input to create
06:15:55 <Oranjer> oh, ha! now I get what you were saying in the latter half of your last comment
06:16:10 <Oranjer> ....which is exactly what i just said :(
06:17:03 <Oranjer> "syn:seed num:2" "syn:phone num:4"
06:19:21 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Islamic_philosophy#Time I can't believe that's the closest I've gotten
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06:26:44 <Oranjer> well, I'm finding a bunch of early Arabic scholarly texts
06:27:00 <Oranjer> and they most certainly included histories
06:27:20 <Oranjer> one apparently has a diagram of plant growth
06:27:29 <Oranjer> but...I can't find any pictures
06:28:06 <Oranjer> although, I still want to know what it says
06:28:12 <ehird> i know all the reasonable explanations, but there's something about it
06:28:57 <Oranjer> I mean, it just seems that the book describes...things and people not existent, ever, in our world
06:29:11 <Oranjer> so either it chronicled extinct things
06:29:16 <ehird> stop it, you're creeping me out
06:29:22 * coppro doesn't understand why infinity can't exist
06:29:33 <ehird> coppro: what does that even mean
06:29:34 <coppro> we live in the Universe, for crying out loud
06:29:35 <Oranjer> oh yeah, I forgot I linked that
06:29:40 <ehird> it's either a joke or really stupi—
06:29:49 <ehird> coppro: yes, and the universe is finite
06:29:50 <lament> we certainly live in a finite universe :)
06:29:57 <ehird> lament: not certainly
06:30:01 <ehird> just — almost certainly.
06:30:03 <Oranjer> coppro, me forgetting I linked that made your comment extremely creepy to me
06:30:16 <coppro> we live in a finite universe that is expanding, and for all we know this expansion may be infinite
06:30:29 <ehird> yes, but it will never be infinitely bi
06:30:33 <Oranjer> well, we have a finite amount of the universe we can observe, but we're fairly certain it exists everywhere
06:30:34 <ehird> also, no, the universe is finite in time too
06:30:45 <ehird> Oranjer: is there a difference?
06:30:49 <coppro> ehird: we don't know for sure
06:30:58 <ehird> I don't think there is a difference.
06:31:01 <ehird> coppro: yes, but probably
06:31:06 <ehird> entropy and all that
06:31:24 <coppro> entropy only matters if the universe is expanding infinitely
06:31:46 <ehird> i kinda think my priority would be to expand my 80 year lifetime before worrying about the end of the universe.
06:31:56 <coppro> just because everything becomes stretched so thin that there are no interactions does not mean it ends
06:31:56 <ehird> i mean, you know, buy a few billion years
06:32:25 <Oranjer> http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20031222/december.shtml
06:32:33 <Oranjer> Santa at the end of the universe
06:33:10 <lament> Oranjer: the universe doesn't exist further than [the age of the universe] light years away
06:33:11 <coppro> and in any case, the entropists are fundamentally stupid. The idea that entropy will eventually make the universe a 100% boring place relies on the idea that somehow a gigantic piece of rock will split apart spontaneously
06:33:30 <coppro> that's the observable universe, not the /whole/ unicerse
06:33:30 <ehird> AnMaster once had the audacity to say tl;dr to http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html
06:33:31 <Oranjer> that is why I said we can only observe that much universe
06:33:37 <ehird> and then expect me to restate it
06:33:49 <ehird> coppro: haha that's idiotic you are idiotic.
06:33:54 <ehird> firstly, "entropists"
06:34:02 <coppro> ehird: come up with a better term
06:34:05 <ehird> "somehow" yeah it's called the universe's expansion
06:34:12 <ehird> "the whole sentence" wow this is idiotic
06:34:15 <lament> ehird: how about, chaos worshippers?
06:34:27 <Oranjer> we have to assume that a point X light years away *also* has such a bubble of its own "observable universe"
06:34:37 <ehird> SPONTANEOUSLY RIPPED APART BECAUSE WE WANT IT TO ERS
06:34:55 <ehird> what definition do we have of real, if not observable?
06:35:00 <lament> Oranjer: actually, we don't
06:35:10 <Oranjer> oh! okay, I stand corrected, lament
06:35:26 <coppro> ehird: in that case that theory requires that the universe expand so quickly that the fundamental interactions can't pull matter back together. Which, I believe, we have shown won't happen because large collections of mass slow the exansion of the Universe.
06:35:27 <ehird> russell's teapot isn't real because, by definition, we can't observe it
06:36:20 <lament> Oranjer: it holds for all the points *inside* the universe by relativity; and for outside points, we don't have to assume anything since they are never of interest
06:36:21 <Oranjer> I think the progression of logic is that
06:36:24 <ehird> i'm fairly sure russell was no EPISTEMOLOGICAL ANARCHIST, Oranjer
06:36:30 <ehird> filthy authoritarian!
06:36:34 <Oranjer> yeah, lament, what lament said
06:36:40 <ehird> (i will give you shit about this on your deathbed!)
06:36:50 <ehird> no, not literally shit
06:37:00 <Oranjer> I think I would be doing the shitting on my own deathbed, thank you very much
06:37:12 <Oranjer> because that is what happens when you die :O
06:37:13 <coppro> Why do I suck at typinhg today?
06:37:19 <Oranjer> and when you give birth :O
06:38:18 <ehird> Faeces isn't the only bodily fluid involved in death!
06:38:53 <fungot> coppro: february 23, 1997, sunday, final edition'". user:ling.nutling.nut 20:52, 19 may 2008 ( utc)
06:38:59 <coppro> okay, that's the topic
06:39:22 <Oranjer> well, it's a diplodrome, for sure
06:39:24 <ehird> LINGG NUTLING NUT.
06:39:32 <ehird> also sdfjkhussdfkgnhndf
06:41:08 <Oranjer> ha! the Arabic world started making so much books because they captured some Chinese paper makers in 751
06:41:21 <Oranjer> too bad they didn't capture silk makers
06:43:42 <coppro> I plod Rome's Fun Diplodromes Fund
06:44:17 <Oranjer> yay coppro, all finding out what a diplodrome is
06:47:27 <Oranjer> okay, my search for *any* diagram of time made in Arabic has been largely fruitless
06:47:56 <Oranjer> I did find out that the "qibla problem" is the problem of determining the direction of Mecca at any point on earth
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07:01:57 <coppro> awesome: http://www.wowbagger.com/
07:02:49 <Oranjer1> it's an insult gen-o-ator, coppro
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07:13:03 <fungot> Oranjer1: yes this page is mostly duplicate material that already exits on the same comparable level, capable of carrying over 1500 men, but could use improvement to be more interested in continuing the traditional role of the person who deleted my link subsequently wrote:
07:13:32 <Oranjer1> "capable of carrying over 1500 men"
07:14:42 <Oranjer1> fungot, that last thing you said made no sense. Care to elaborate?
07:14:42 <fungot> Oranjer1: am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these things are explored in the article
07:15:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube
07:15:09 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
07:15:13 <fungot> ehird: obsd should have it tomorrow), just store lambdas in the slots and you're back in .tw for the holidays.
07:15:29 <ehird> fungot: I love OpenBSD! Just store some lambdas in slots and it transports you to Taiwan.
07:15:29 <fungot> ehird: exploring new possibilities is nice, but sometimes it's necessary.
07:15:35 <ehird> fungot: How is that a but?
07:15:36 <fungot> ehird: " so that the text says ' o(1) fnord time you'll need links going both directions afaics he doesn't build the initial image)
07:15:45 <ehird> fungot: YAAAAAAAAAAY
07:16:02 <ehird> Went out on a bang.
07:16:07 <ehird> A meaningless bang.
07:16:49 <fungot> Oranjer1: must write something that idiotic again, i was
07:17:10 <fungot> ehird: i heard p2p apps are fundamentally illegal.) kala ( finn.) is preferable to just having name.
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07:17:27 <ehird> fungot: Aww, but I dislike kala (finn.). I like normal names better. And P2P apps are totally legal!
07:17:28 <fungot> ehird: it's not a language
07:17:34 <ehird> fungot: What isn't?
07:17:34 <fungot> ehird: now he told me when i have two questions for you about that
07:17:41 <ehird> fungot: Ah. What are the questions?
07:17:41 <fungot> ehird: you need scheme48vm in such a way that is as simple as possible. the interpreter printed the return value
07:17:48 <ehird> fungot: Agreed; simple VMs rock. And?
07:18:05 <coppro> fungot: Can you please explain the ehird?
07:18:05 <fungot> coppro: mathematics isn't constructivist. i
07:18:08 <Oranjer1> fungot, answer ehird's question!
07:18:09 <fungot> Oranjer1: i just wanted to see if it halts, it won't let me change the port on startup?
07:18:15 <coppro> fungot: Of course it isn't!
07:18:16 <fungot> coppro: i did put x1 y1 x2 y2 in it
07:18:24 <coppro> fungot: now that's a start
07:18:25 <fungot> coppro: oh dear, i shall have to leave any minute now
07:18:25 <ehird> Explain the ehird?
07:18:32 <ehird> fungot: Bots can leave?
07:18:33 <fungot> ehird: or just ip and fnord lines long... part of the language's intrinsic control structures."
07:18:36 <fungot> Oranjer1: i want to know precisely what you want
07:18:43 <ehird> Ah, the moving of the IP.
07:18:46 <coppro> that's a coherent sentence!
07:18:50 <ehird> Cute analogy, fungot. Hey, don't be so pushy.
07:18:50 <fungot> ehird: of course you know that
07:18:54 <fungot> coppro: as in " anything else is a compromise, a compromise would be to write a language
07:18:55 <ehird> Yes fungot I know that
07:18:56 <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
07:19:12 <ehird> `addquote <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
07:19:12 <fungot> ehird: i never realized how small scheme was ever aimed towards fnord removal of weakness and restrictions mentioned in the irc rfc, since it's pretty simple
07:19:17 <Oranjer1> fungot, I want to preserve sentience by saving humanity by ruling the world. Precise enough?
07:19:17 <fungot> Oranjer1: sorry for the trouble, and i can evaluate... and force a return of the last
07:19:21 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
07:19:25 <fungot> coppro: as for soundcards, i have never encountered problems with becoming fnord by the object's implementation.
07:19:59 <coppro> fungot: try the proprietary drivers
07:20:00 <fungot> coppro: ( that is) it'd start to take pictures in fnord. 5 of the fold, collect, reduce, wapr ( use %help for argument information)
07:20:11 <fungot> coppro: why not?...... about 300 wpm. i'm too lazy to look at the map.
07:20:32 <ehird> humans have maps for driving
07:20:36 <ehird> fungot has maps for typing
07:20:36 <fungot> ehird: forgot to select cl coloring style there. i'm active more often, that is).
07:22:31 <fungot> Oranjer1: why? this channel has people with strong opinions. that's a press machine right? so its in a makefile called i-know-what-i-am-doing, does one have to manually specify it
07:22:57 <Oranjer1> "that's a press machine, right?"
07:23:14 <ehird> i like that makefile name
07:23:18 <ehird> it's the advanced one clearly
07:23:28 <Oranjer1> also, the last sentence looks like a geeky way of saying "shove off, I'm the expert"
07:23:40 <Oranjer1> so its in a makefile called i-know-what-i-am-doing, does one have to manually specify it?
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07:25:18 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you think about: human languages?
07:25:18 <fungot> Oranjer: it's just a bit
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11:49:27 <fizzie> Hm, I didn't know facebook has a "English (Upside Down)" as one of the language options. ".əɔıoɥɔ ɹnoʎ ɟo əƃɐnƃuɐl əɥʇ uı ʞooqəɔɐℲ əsʍoɹq oʇ ɹəpɹo uı əƃɐnƃuɐl ʎɹɐɯıɹd ɹnoʎ ʇəS"
11:51:51 <Deewiant> My font doesn't like that upside-down F at all
11:52:33 <fizzie> They're cheating a bit with some characters; approximating g with ƃ, latin small letter b with topbar.
11:54:13 <fizzie> Ⅎ is U+2132, turned capital F = "Claudian digamma inversum", in the letterlike symbols thing.
11:54:38 <Deewiant> http://iki.fi/deewiant/tmp/f.png
11:55:59 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/f.png
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14:29:34 <fungot> Oranjer: if the fnord and patches and the vcs you use emacs?
14:29:44 <Oranjer> I do not use emacs, fungot
14:30:13 <fungot> Oranjer: that's reasonable in a way mit scheme isn't recognizing." " oh, first download and compile sdl_image. :)
14:31:39 <fizzie> Yes, you need sdl_image in order to be able to use spaces in MIT Scheme.
14:32:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
14:32:24 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
14:32:38 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you think of Keynesian Economics?
14:34:41 <oerjan> it just thinks you are boring company, and refuses to talk to you any more. right fungot?
14:34:46 <fungot> oerjan: we have no right to exclude slavery from a territory, and fnord bray, remember me; and with an awe that is almost superstitious. i should be painted with all sincerity, and was loved by them; and whether we consider the conduct of the war. now that palled, and i know, that the hall of apollo.
14:35:11 <oerjan> that's got be an *old* speech
14:35:20 <fizzie> Most things in Gutenberg are.
14:35:24 <Oranjer> hall of apollo? Battlestar Gallactica?
14:35:29 <fizzie> fungot: You sound so pompous when you talk like that.
14:35:29 <fungot> fizzie: quintilian applied to general literature the same principles, or precedents, of the secondary pleasures of the poor labouring man. fnord, who divided his attention between several exercises, though he constantly exposed himself to the public service and make the happiness of mankind.
14:36:05 <Oranjer> I constantly expose myself to the public service (workers)
14:36:26 <Oranjer> I also make *the* happiness of mankind (pornography)
14:37:52 <fizzie> Unfortunately the workstation's offline, I can't check what all went into that style. I think I just searched for the word "speech" in the title, and hand-picked some promising ones.
14:38:18 <fizzie> I'm sure there's at the very least "Selections from the Speeches and Writings of Edmund Burke"; Burke lived 1729-1797.
14:38:19 <fungot> Oranjer: it yields nothing itself; it keeps all it has, perhaps, it may be further observed, that this great work would be dedicated to the proposition that all is safe, that he had studied much and travelled far. he had to combat frantic enthusiasm, boundless ambition, unquestioned courage, admirable sagacity. yet i have frequently observed in him a fnord copy of the book which has made the house of commons
14:38:58 <fungot> Oranjer: " this association for fnord"
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15:10:20 <fungot> Oranjer: he counted and said it was fnord and fnord of a departed city, retained the privileges of the.
15:10:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube
15:10:40 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
15:10:47 <fungot> Oranjer: they can't actually check that. but, with a few rounds of onslaught daily, odds are good you could lead a normal life. and i never really told her how much... how much i...
15:11:04 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
15:11:11 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
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15:25:33 <Deewiant> Oranjer: fungot won't let you spam them
15:25:34 <fungot> Deewiant: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!
15:25:50 <fungot> Oranjer: but, we are far outnumbered!
15:26:04 <Deewiant> Fortunately, there are other bots here (EgoBot and HackEgo) that you can use to circumvent it if you just want to chat
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16:53:34 <ais523> wow, Novell just appealed SCO vs. Novell to the Supreme Court
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16:54:05 <ais523> tbh, I should have seen that one coming
16:54:16 <ais523> they haven't accepted it yet, though
16:55:39 <ais523> Oranjer1: the whole SCO story is one of the most ridiculous litigations in recent history
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16:56:28 <ais523> people got interested in the first place when SCO claimed that using Linux is illegal; that's pretty much been thoroughly debunked, but SCO have still managed to get various court cases going all these years
16:56:36 <ais523> even though they're technically bankrupt, and have been for almost a year now
16:58:25 <ais523> (it's the litigation in which the judge redefined time, for instance; it's really absurd)
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17:09:24 <AnMaster> what was the reason for appeal there?
17:09:32 * AnMaster hasn't followed the SCO stuff recently
17:09:43 <ais523> AnMaster: because SCO appealed the original SCO vs. Novell verdict to the state appeal courts
17:10:01 <ais523> and the verdict that came back effectively said that claiming that someone had given you the copyright on something meant you actually had it
17:10:08 <ais523> which is so absurd that Novell appealed it up to the level above
17:10:15 <ais523> saying it contradicted loads of other verdicts
17:10:40 <AnMaster> yeah, how the hell could it have ended up like that
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17:13:31 <ais523> AnMaster: that isn't even the weirdest thing that happened in the SCO litigation...
17:13:31 <AnMaster> hm ehird would like to know about this, if he is still considering a thinkpad...
17:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird: for log reading http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_high_pitch_noises#Limit_ACPI_CPU_power_states
17:14:02 <Oranjer1> so wait what exactly are the SCO wanting to do?
17:14:14 <ais523> Oranjer1: nobody's entirely sure any more
17:14:16 <AnMaster> for me it happens in some rare (for me at least) workloads. Not otherwise
17:14:23 <ais523> the leading theory is that someone's paid them to kepe the litigation going as long as possible
17:14:31 <ais523> because there's no real other explanation for their behaviour
17:15:09 <ais523> AnMaster: well, SCO are famous for claiming that Linux is illegal
17:15:45 <ais523> Oranjer1: SCO claimed that Novell had the copyright on UNIX, sold it to them, and that Linux infringes the copyright of UNIX
17:15:50 <ais523> because, um, some of the commands are the same
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17:16:16 <ais523> all three of the statements there are dubious; the first is the only one that's even likely to be correct
17:16:33 <Oranjer1> what could possibly happen if Linux is made illegal?
17:16:46 <ais523> everyone would have to pay SCO $600 for the privilege to use it
17:16:53 <ais523> but it isn't, SCO's arguments make no sense at all
17:17:09 <ais523> (Red Hat sued SCO over their statements, incidentally)
17:17:23 <ais523> (and also indemnified all their customers against them, which is /really/ unusual)
17:19:33 <ais523> SCO also sued Autozone (for using Linux, but apparently they're going to settle that one), IBM (for contributing code to Linux that they claim infringes their copyrights), and Novell (for claiming that they didn't give SCO the copyrights in question in the first place)
17:19:44 <ais523> suing IBM is widely regarded to be an incredibly stupid move
17:19:51 <ais523> especially given how tenuous their case is
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17:57:02 <pikhq> ais523: Not to mention that IBM's legal team is notorious for being able to outwait anyone.
17:58:06 <ais523> OTOH, IBM's legal team is also notorious for winning
17:58:09 <ais523> something SCO's hasn't managed yet
17:58:49 <pikhq> IBM outwaited the US government.
18:06:10 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from pikhq: 1.33 second(s)
18:06:18 <AnMaster> so he can't blame it on connection issues
18:10:59 <ais523> I often leave my computer on when I go elsewhere
18:11:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I *usually* set /away when I do
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18:30:29 <fizzie> I have a silly Python XChat script to listen to dbus notifications sent by xlock's startCmd hook so that it automagically sets away/back when I lock/unlock the screen. Sometimes boredom makes you do really useless things.
18:31:07 <Oranjer1> fizzie, no offense, but that sounds exactly like something fungot would say
18:31:07 <fungot> Oranjer1: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!! gotcha!
18:31:30 <fizzie> The sword alone can't stop!
18:31:53 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> fizzie, no offense, but that sounds exactly like something fungot would say
18:31:54 <fungot> AnMaster: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
18:32:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:32:21 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, keep ct for now please
18:32:26 <fungot> AnMaster: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!!
18:32:36 <fungot> AnMaster: in the middle ages, sir slush!... i grow so tired. we can talk we had soldiers searching for! i've come to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!
18:32:40 <fizzie> Ozzie gets easily stumped.
18:32:46 <AnMaster> fungot, so what about that sword?
18:32:50 <fungot> AnMaster: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile?
18:33:15 <fizzie> It's from the Masamune cave scene.
18:33:30 <fizzie> Direct quotation, I think.
18:34:36 <Oranjer1> fungot, AnMaster said not really
18:34:41 <fungot> Oranjer1: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
18:34:47 <fizzie> MUNE: What should we do?
18:34:47 <fizzie> MASA: The usual...test them.
18:34:47 <fizzie> You can entertain us for awhile.
18:34:56 <fizzie> Yes, pretty direct quotation, except it put a ? there.
18:35:13 <fungot> AnMaster: we must do it to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!
18:35:32 <fungot> AnMaster: you! take! we find!
18:35:40 <fungot> AnMaster: you! take! we find!?
18:35:40 <fizzie> (The ? came from "You're breaking my concentration, so would you find somewhere else to go for awhile?")
18:35:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: You! Take! We find.
18:36:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah where is that from
18:36:20 <Oranjer1> like a rousing game of Steal and Seek
18:36:37 <fungot> AnMaster: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...
18:37:15 <fizzie> Heh, getting offensive.
18:37:29 * AnMaster is still waiting for the sword one
18:37:43 <AnMaster> and where exactly is the sword scene from?
18:38:04 <fizzie> I think it's in the ocean palace, when you stick your stick into the mammon machine thing.
18:38:37 <AnMaster> since I hit 4 someone else has to continue
18:39:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, and why the repeat thing on it? Doesn't seem to make sense
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18:39:48 <fizzie> That "You! Take! We find." is from two things; the latter half is from Ayla's "Not here too. Someone take! We find!" (from the sunstone sidequest) and the front part is from "You! Take care Ayla."
18:40:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, I meant the repeat of "sword alone"
18:40:23 <fizzie> Yes, I'm checking that now.
18:40:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: I hope you're looking these up and not remembering them by heart
18:41:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: All the direct quotations are looked-up things, yes.
18:41:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the guess that it was Ayla however was pretty given. (Or others from the same epoch.)
18:41:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, was the sunstone a *side*-quest?
18:41:57 <AnMaster> thought it was required or something
18:42:41 <fizzie> No, it's one of the six-or-so sidequests that you get at the end.
18:42:48 <fizzie> It's "required" if you want the Rainbow, though.
18:45:42 <fizzie> Heh, the repetition is actually "caused" by the variable-length model; it hasn't bothered to include the "can't stop it" ngram that would actually continue the sword-alone sentence correctly, and the most likely continuation for the single-word context "stop" is of course ! (there's quite a lot of "stop!"s around). Then when it has created "stop!", it always continues using the "stop! that" ngram, leading to a repetition of the sword-aloneness.
18:46:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, what was the original exact phrase? "that sword alone can't stop it"?
18:48:08 <fizzie> The Befunge code is pretty stupid in that it can only choose from the maximum-length ngrams it finds in the model; combined with the variable-length model which keeps only a couple of longer-length ngrams (those which are common, basically), it's virtually guaranteed to always use those whenever the context is suitable.
18:48:56 <fizzie> It doesn't hurt so much for the other cases where I've generated unpruned "all ngrams up to N=k" models with a constant k.
18:49:28 <fizzie> Even there it does cause that tendency to quote verbatim pretty often.
18:50:31 <fizzie> The variable-length model estimator tool gives me back-off probabilities I could use to sometimes use a shorter context too, but that would need changes in the Funge-98 side, haven't had time to implement that.
18:52:10 <fizzie> There might even be a Funge-98 randomness generation bug, in fact, because I don't get the loop from the Perl test script.
18:52:54 <fizzie> Here's 20 lines, none of them really looped: http://pastebin.com/m1ce086cc
18:53:34 <fizzie> "this power is beyond human control! over 1300 points!" That's pretty funny.
18:55:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, pretty. What does it do
18:55:58 <fizzie> It's supposed to do the same thing fungot's babble-generator does. Except that you can feed it some starting context if you want.
18:55:58 <fungot> fizzie: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!!!
18:56:14 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure your randomness is completely random?
18:56:14 <fungot> fizzie: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle!
18:57:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, funge programs can read cmd line arguments. So no reason to not use same
18:58:13 <fizzie> Er, yes, there is: I don't have the capabilities for mapping from strings to token numbers in the Funge-98 code.
18:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, shouldn't be impossible :P
18:59:05 <fizzie> Of course not, but it would still need to be implemented. In the Perl code it's just "slurp tokens.bin into a Perl hash variable"; in Funge-98 it's a bit more nontrivial, especially to do it efficiently.
19:00:01 <AnMaster> implement a hash table library for funge
19:00:18 <fizzie> (The other way around -- from token indices to strings -- I already do in Funge-98 to generate the final output, but that's just "seek to idx*4, read offset and length, seek to offset, read string".)
19:01:07 <fizzie> The offset+length values are four-byte objects. I think.
19:01:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, so where does it get the idx from?
19:01:55 <fizzie> From the babble-generator, which generates a sequence of idx numbers.
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19:58:49 <AnMaster> <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure your randomness is completely random? <-- maybe the issue is in the perl script instead?
19:58:50 <fungot> AnMaster: you! take! we find! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly!
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19:59:26 <AnMaster> ehird, see log today about thinkpads (if you are still interested in those)
19:59:34 <AnMaster> oh and the sysfs interface is missing in ubuntu at least
19:59:47 <ehird> Ubuntu doesn't have /sys?
20:00:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it does. But not the relevant file for that issue
20:00:05 <fizzie> Given that the Perl script works better, I don't really care which one is "wrong", I'd be more interested to know just what the difference is.
20:00:15 <ehird> AnMaster: You can disable sysfs, I think.
20:00:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well. That isn't the point here
20:01:01 <ehird> My distro won't have udev anyway :OP
20:01:07 <ehird> I probably will have /sys, though.
20:01:21 <ehird> You need it to control overcommitting and the like, unless i'm mistaking.
20:01:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway. <AnMaster> ehird: for log reading http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_high_pitch_noises#Limit_ACPI_CPU_power_states
20:02:06 <AnMaster> and you need kernel boot parameter to make it work under ubuntu
20:02:13 <ehird> That's a lot of affected models.
20:02:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it is slightly higher pitch than a CRT I would say
20:03:04 <ehird> "Screen brightness: on an X31, a hissing sound is started whenever screen brightness is not full."
20:03:05 <ehird> Ultraportable fail
20:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no problems with *that* at least
20:03:44 <ehird> "Turn off CPU power saving in the BIOS"
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20:03:45 <fizzie> I don't think a different seed is enough to make fungot more repetitive than the Perl script. (Admittedly I'm not sure it *is* more repetitious, it's just a vague feeling.)
20:03:46 <fungot> fizzie: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
20:04:08 <ehird> 07:26:04 <Deewiant> Fortunately, there are other bots here (EgoBot and HackEgo) that you can use to circumvent it if you just want to chat
20:04:10 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway for it to be annoying on my laptop it needs something like 2000 wakeups / second
20:04:10 <ehird> fungot ignores them
20:04:11 <fizzie> fungot: I'll open *your* hatch if you keep that up.
20:04:11 <fungot> ehird: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword al
20:04:17 <fungot> AnMaster: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale?
20:04:38 <fizzie> There's just something about ehird that the sword alone can't stop.
20:05:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Hah! My awesome Linux distro will have, like, 3 wakeups/s.
20:05:20 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. This isn't on idle for me anyway
20:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, some loads *does* result in lots of wakeups. In this case it was when doing md5sum on a file over nfs
20:06:01 <ehird> The only issue with mine is that since nobody else is this minimal I'm on my own :P
20:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you are turning into zzo + elegant UI
20:07:05 <ehird> At least I'm not writing my own software
20:07:19 <ehird> AnMaster: But yes, I'm crazy.
20:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the installer and such?
20:07:38 <ehird> Although really, it's bare-bones enough that maintenance should be quite easy.
20:07:39 <AnMaster> will you reuse an existing one?
20:08:08 <ehird> Installer is, uh, copying the root FS, and then maybe some auto-configuration.
20:08:20 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:08:23 <ehird> Package manager I'm rolling myself; I have the design mostly ready and it's very, very simple.
20:08:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what about selecting what components you want? Or is it "everyone get the same"?
20:08:47 <ehird> (Update or install package = Install dependencies, rsync from the package server's directory for that package to /, update the file list)
20:08:53 <ehird> (Update the simple dependency map)
20:09:20 <AnMaster> are you saying something like rsync server/package /
20:09:23 <ehird> And you select components by — shock — managing packages.
20:09:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Pretty much.
20:09:36 <AnMaster> ehird, some issues, what if a file is no longer in the new version?
20:09:58 <AnMaster> oh and, there are other ones too. Technical ones. But sure go ahead.
20:10:09 <AnMaster> ehird, what about signed packages?
20:10:14 <ehird> It simply rms any files that have been removed.
20:10:21 <Deewiant> ehird: It does? I thought it just applies the 3-strikes-and-you're-out ignorance to everybody
20:10:45 <fungot> AnMaster: the masamune!
20:10:45 <ehird> This is my package manager that does it
20:10:46 <fungot> Deewiant: the real queen's safe, right! right. wrong!
20:10:58 <ehird> fizzie: say ^ignore
20:11:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Signed packages; eh.
20:11:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I could do them.
20:11:19 <ehird> But it'd be a pain, and it rarely solves much, IMO.
20:11:24 <AnMaster> ehird, would be a bit of pain with rsync though
20:11:28 <ehird> When have you ever seen a PGP error?
20:11:38 <fizzie> I don't think I actually made it show the regexp at all; it just says "ok" when you set it.
20:11:45 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Due to invalid signature? A few times
20:11:51 <ehird> Did you just erase it :D
20:12:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Right, so, never because it's been compromised
20:12:08 <fizzie> I don't think so; it probably looks for "^ignore " with the space.
20:12:09 <ehird> It is a consideration though; thanks for that
20:12:17 <ehird> AnMaster: But it's easy to do.
20:12:21 <fungot> AnMaster: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
20:12:28 <fungot> AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
20:12:31 <fizzie> Currently ignoring ^(HackEgo|EgoBot)! if my logs are right.
20:12:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Sign a file containing every file's SHA-1.
20:12:44 <ehird> AnMaster: The rsync goes to a temp directory instead, then checks them all.
20:13:07 <AnMaster> ehird, there are some issues with config files and rsync though
20:13:19 <AnMaster> you want your httpd config overwritten by new version?
20:13:27 <AnMaster> or to get the ability to diff and merge
20:13:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Config files will be written by the package manager's install script if there is none.
20:13:49 <ehird> AnMaster: If the syntax or whatever has changed, or you really should have a new directive, tell the user.
20:14:02 <ehird> e.g. Gentoo, according to pikhq, doesn't really have a culture of running the config-merger script
20:14:05 <ehird> and it seems to do fine
20:14:19 <ehird> Mostly it's just an annoyance for me where I hit "keep my config dammit"
20:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? "doesn't really have a culture of running the config-merger script"? There is dispatch-conf that pops up a diff and some options
20:14:50 <AnMaster> portage tells you if there are any configs to merge
20:14:52 <ehird> There's a tool, but pikhq says most users very rarely run it.
20:14:57 <AnMaster> at the end of the install/upgrade
20:15:04 <ehird> 18:38:16 <pikhq> Gentoo has a script for merging any changes in config files.
20:15:05 <ehird> 18:38:32 <pikhq> If you don't execute the script, it leaves your config files the hell alone.
20:15:05 <ehird> 18:38:34 <ehird> any? lemme guess, a generic merge tool
20:15:05 <ehird> 18:38:37 <ehird> yeah
20:15:06 <ehird> 18:38:43 <ehird> how often is script execution done?
20:15:06 <ehird> 18:38:49 <ehird> i mean, on average
20:15:07 <ehird> 18:39:13 <ehird> I get the feeling that generally, merging is unneeded, and when it's needed it's either really easy to do or a complete renovation, which can't be automated without a lot of pain
20:15:10 <ehird> 18:39:14 <pikhq> I do it every time I upgrade, but that's just me being rather careful & paranoid. How often do most do that?
20:15:13 <AnMaster> ehird, huh. I always run it when portage tells me to
20:15:13 <ehird> 18:39:20 <pikhq> Uh... Very, very rarely.
20:15:29 <ehird> Anyway, I can easily add a merging system.
20:15:38 <AnMaster> sadly all that dispatch-conf supports for that is rcs
20:15:44 <ehird> I probably won't add signed packages at first, because they're not very important and simplicity is the #1 goal
20:15:50 <AnMaster> so while I know the stuff is there I have no clue how to get it out without reading docs
20:16:04 <AnMaster> versions your /etc and integrates with apt
20:16:28 <ehird> My package manager will be a handful of rc shell scripts
20:16:38 <ehird> So, very easy to integrate with.
20:16:46 <ehird> (I might add some hooks to avoid overwriting on upgrade.)
20:16:52 <AnMaster> ehird, heh. I assume you got that idea from SourceMage (the package manager there being written in bash)
20:16:54 <ehird> Oh, and my init system will be two rc scripts too...
20:16:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope, just simplicity.
20:17:06 <ehird> Since 90% of it is just using stock tools.
20:17:17 <ehird> It might call a C program to update the dependency graph.
20:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, trust me. It is not simple. Rather it is quite messy. I guess it might be better with rc though
20:17:28 <ehird> (used for removing unused packages, basically)
20:17:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I imagine SourceMage's package manager is overcomplex, like all of them.
20:17:49 <ehird> Even Slackware's is overcomplex because it's too simple.
20:17:58 <ehird> Leading to heaps of complexity when using it.
20:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, since sourcemage is, well, source based, it isn't trivial no
20:18:16 <AnMaster> they even wrote something like doxygen for bash
20:18:21 <AnMaster> just to be able to maintain it
20:18:36 <AnMaster> (this thing, bashdoc, is written in bash of course)
20:18:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I used bashdoc in envbot though
20:19:33 <AnMaster> after some adjustments to make it generate slightly less "web around 1992" like output.
20:19:56 <ehird> So, let's see where my current design is... tiny kernel without modules + no initrd + static binaries + a.out + very simple filesystem hierarchy + lilo + no udev + no hal + init system is two rc scripts + package manager is just a few rc scripts and maybe a little c, very simple, rsync based
20:21:07 <ehird> If I want a long, exciting features list it should be all the things I *don't* do.
20:21:19 <AnMaster> ehird, weren't you going for a "no kernel" something?
20:21:24 <AnMaster> or is that a different project?
20:21:31 <ehird> This is a linux distro.
20:21:53 <ehird> ehirdOS is unlikely to be usable for *years*, being that it's still being designed..
20:21:59 <ehird> This is intended for me to use.
20:22:20 <ehird> + clang instead of gcc wherever possible + non-glibc libc (eglibc for things that REALLY need it)
20:22:55 <ehird> I'm frozen at an old version of gcc since they dropped a.out support, too. So it'll be nice when the kernel can be booted with clang (two kernel patches builds it atm, but it can't boot).
20:23:05 <ehird> WebKit and KDE already compile with clang...
20:23:13 <ehird> Hopefully WebKit will be stable compiled like that.
20:24:10 <ehird> Have I mentioned, I'm crazy.
20:24:33 <ehird> Oh well, at least I only have to deal with this crap when the assholes behind any project make a new release. :P
20:24:59 <ehird> clang just does LLVM.
20:25:07 <ehird> I don't know if LLVM does a.out.
20:25:10 <ais523> I thought you could compile the resulting LLVM
20:25:25 <ehird> What I mean is that it's up to LLVM.
20:25:34 <ehird> But I really don't know. I hope so.
20:26:07 <ehird> [[The a.out format has no direct support for debug information, but can be augmented with stabs, which uses special symbol table entries to store data.]]
20:26:13 <ehird> Hopefully stabs are still supported, then.
20:26:41 <ehird> The main problem with this being a distro will be my general unwillingness to package things I don't like, methinks.
20:26:57 <ehird> No KDE allowed! (And probably no GNOME because building that is a bitch, I gather.)
20:27:20 <ais523> I've built gnome-games, it went pretty smoothly
20:29:15 * pikhq wonders if the various recipes for GoboLinux can be forced into being useful for non-Gobo.
20:29:38 <pikhq> ELF is overkill for static linking.
20:29:39 <AnMaster> there is no good reason except possibly tiny size for embedded systems. And even there I'm doubtful
20:29:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, well sure. But why static?
20:29:51 <ehird> Small size, really simple, I don't need dynamic linking.
20:29:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Because:
20:30:01 <AnMaster> dynamic means *less* to download at updatesa
20:30:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: He's all about simplicity.
20:30:04 <ehird> AnMaster: http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/
20:30:07 <ehird> AnMaster: And it doesn't.
20:30:19 <AnMaster> ehird, security patches I meant
20:30:20 <ehird> Dynamically linked glibc binaries? Bigger than statically linked newlib binaries.
20:30:35 <AnMaster> ehird, what about security fix for libpng or such
20:30:36 <ehird> AnMaster: It doesn't work. Dynamic linking is a seemingly nice idea but it failed.
20:30:45 <ehird> Anyway, just read http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/.
20:30:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what about plugins that are dlopen()ed
20:30:53 <ehird> I'll link to the Plan 9 wiki's page on it too, sec.
20:30:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't do them.
20:31:02 <pikhq> Dynamic linking would be much nicer if it weren't for ABI breakage.
20:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, forget openoffice for example. And firefox iirc.
20:31:19 <ehird> AnMaster: That's good, I'm not interested in them. But I could patch them.
20:31:25 <ehird> Or make them depend on a dynamic linker.
20:31:31 <ehird> That's nice. Mostly shit software.
20:31:52 <ehird> http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/
20:31:53 <ehird> http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/
20:31:58 <ehird> (Context for the latter: Plan 9 is statically linked only.0
20:32:12 <ehird> AnMaster: So I'll disable it.
20:33:13 <pikhq> I'd like to just note that pretty much all the problems I've had on Gentoo are related to dynamic linking.
20:33:16 <ehird> And to add on to the reasons in those two pages: It's simpler.
20:33:24 <ehird> And less work for me, too...
20:33:26 <pikhq> And most of the recompilation.
20:33:48 <pikhq> (you'd be surprised at how often ABI breakages happen in libraries)
20:33:50 <AnMaster> " And, as Linus mentioned, TLBs matter. Hmm. Judging by 'ps', cat on linux
20:33:50 <AnMaster> needs 256 of them, and cat on Plan 9 needs 6."
20:34:12 <ehird> The point is that it's an invalid argument because it's the GNU retards that say this crap.
20:34:15 <AnMaster> just compare to dynamically linked cat on freebsd
20:34:39 <ehird> The GNU idiots go "OHH DYNAMIC LINKING OH GOD SIZE" when it's their software's fault that things are so big.
20:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, and I never had much problems with the "swap in bug fixed version" in fact
20:35:21 <ehird> And pikhq has. And many other people have, so yeah, lucky.
20:35:37 <ehird> The reasons in http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ are more philosophical than the Plan 9 link. And simplicity too.
20:35:39 <pikhq> I run revdep-rebuild after every single emerge that upgrades a package.
20:35:50 <pikhq> Because ABIs break often.
20:36:14 <pikhq> (incidentally, why the fuck does making Xlib using XCB break the Xlib ABI?)
20:37:16 <ehird> Hmm, yeah, XCB. I think I'll use that.
20:37:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, I seen programs without ABI breakage
20:37:39 <ehird> You mean it doesn't ALWAYS break?
20:37:44 <ehird> Dynamic linking! FUCK YEAH!
20:37:44 <pikhq> ABIs are very easy to break with C++.
20:37:55 <pikhq> KDE has to go out of their way not to, in fact.
20:37:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, strangely enough for me, it didn't. Was rather confused why revdep-rebuild found nothing and so on
20:38:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yeah the last X update was flawless for me. Just needed to rebuild nvidia module (forgot about that first time around)
20:38:26 <pikhq> (fun fact: change the private members of a class? That's an ABI break!)
20:38:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is because C++ sucks
20:38:50 <AnMaster> I assume something slightly saner like C when discussing ABIs
20:38:57 <ehird> C++ sucks and it's also FUCKING HERE.
20:39:12 <AnMaster> if you consider C++ then yes dynamic linking is insane
20:39:15 <ehird> Want a great web rendering library? WebKit.
20:39:27 <pikhq> Well, in C, at least you can prevent breakage without thinking about it *too* much.
20:39:28 <ehird> The alternatives? Um, Gecko... which is shit... and also uses C++.
20:39:34 <ehird> So... yeah, C++ is mandatory.
20:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, no thanks. I'm happy with w3m-mode
20:39:48 <pikhq> Taking away functions, and changing the types of functions...
20:40:01 <pikhq> I think those are pretty much the ways to break C ABI.
20:40:11 <pikhq> (assuming same functionality)
20:40:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah and those you can pretty much avoid in a stable version. Bug fix only mode you know.
20:41:12 <pikhq> Surprising that people manage to screw that up.
20:41:22 <AnMaster> huh. Aspell accepts both "practice" and "practise"
20:41:39 <ehird> Incidentally, using static libraries should reduce most of my package dependencies by a ton...
20:41:39 <ehird> Since I don't need to depend on libraries.
20:42:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes. I agree that it is strange
20:42:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Both are correct.
20:42:23 <AnMaster> still I haven't seen too much ABI breakage in C apps (unlike C++ ones)
20:42:33 <bsmntbombdood> what's the highest resolution display you can get?
20:42:38 <pikhq> ehird: Hell, with static libraries you only really need to think about build-time dependencies.
20:42:48 <ehird> It can depend on binaries.
20:42:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Single LCD panel, yes.
20:43:00 <ehird> pikhq: And /share stuff.
20:43:19 <pikhq> Makes the problem significantly easier, though.
20:43:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Why? Do you have ~$4,000 plus the few hundred bucks needed for the card to drive it?
20:43:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Also, incredibly good eyesight? That thar pixel density be very high, good luck reading without forcing much larger fontts.
20:44:01 * AnMaster bets ehird didn't expect that answer
20:44:05 <ehird> Also, I'd like that 4 k$, plz.
20:44:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Well he did just buy a $200 display... so yes, rather unexpected.
20:44:44 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, what is your job? CEO?
20:44:46 <ehird> It's more like 2 k$ nowadays anyway for a T221.
20:45:00 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: no, i just have a full time job and live with my parents
20:45:00 <ehird> You need to be a CEO to have 4 k$?
20:45:52 <ehird> If you do actually get a T221, that'd be beyond awesome.
20:46:16 <ehird> http://www.harmony-central.com/Test/wilson/two.jpg
20:46:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> You need to be a CEO to have 4 k$? <-- no. But to have so much to *waste* and don't care, maybe
20:46:25 <ehird> Just look at that real-estate on the right side.
20:46:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the gamut of it?
20:46:45 <ehird> And the Apple Cinema Display to the left is denser than most displays already!
20:46:46 <ehird> AnMaster: How is it a waste?
20:46:50 <ehird> The gamut is good for 2001.
20:46:54 <ehird> It's a professional monitor, after all.
20:47:00 <ehird> But jesus christ, look at the size of that text.
20:47:04 <ehird> Definitely want to up the DPI settings...
20:47:23 <ehird> Hey, and you definitely can't complain about subpixel colour fringing.
20:47:28 <AnMaster> is that a apple cinema display on the side?
20:47:47 <ehird> Will be about 100 ppi.
20:47:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that IBM monitor looks small. Maybe around 17" or so?
20:48:07 <ehird> Oh, the ACD must be 30"
20:48:15 <ehird> Anyway, it's larger than this display.
20:48:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: But really, if you look at the text on http://www.harmony-central.com/Test/wilson/two.jpg, a lot of those pixels will go to waste foro text.
20:48:37 <ehird> Still, the fractals will look nice. :P
20:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, so will text with proper DPI settings
20:49:02 <ehird> You can completely disable hinting.
20:49:06 <AnMaster> ehird, also that high res concorde looks awesome
20:49:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: No ppi is too much!
20:49:25 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's not quite that dense yet :P
20:49:27 <ehird> "This is a revised model of the original T220. Notable improvements include using only one power adapter instead of two"
20:49:43 <AnMaster> ehird, how much would be required for dropping AA?
20:49:44 <ehird> You need ~600 ppi to give up antialiasing.
20:49:50 <ehird> Same as in print, really.
20:50:27 * AnMaster wants those desktop bgs though
20:50:28 <ehird> An issue with the T221 is that doing awesome smooth 3D animations on it will be very hard on the graphics cards... (you need multiple)
20:50:34 <ehird> Which is such a shame.
20:50:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Oh, and the refresh rate sucks:
20:50:52 <ehird> "The supported maximum refresh rates at native resolution depends on how many TMDS links are used. Single, double, and quad-link support 13, 25, 41 Hz refresh rates respectively. With reduced blanking periods single, double, and quad-TMDS-link can obtain 17.0, 33.72, and 41 Hz refresh. This model's internal refresh rate is always 41 Hz."
20:50:56 <AnMaster> ehird, but wouldn't that 30" ACD require that too?
20:51:02 <ehird> Only 41 Hz if you use four links.
20:51:06 <ehird> = moar graphics cards
20:51:22 <fizzie> Wikipedia has a messy "list of displays by pixel density" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density -- and admittedly the T220 with 204 ppi is the highest you can still call a "screen"; the rest are tiny device displays.
20:51:55 <ehird> Consumer-level cards can drive that today
20:51:59 <ehird> With two DVI links
20:52:09 <AnMaster> "The 9503-DG5 model had a native refresh rate of 48 Hz"
20:52:22 <AnMaster> "The IBM T221-DG5 was discontinued in June 2005."
20:52:23 <ehird> Yeah, but good luck finding one of them on the market
20:52:28 <ehird> All of them are discontinued
20:52:35 <ehird> You want it used anyway
20:52:40 <ehird> New, they're like $5,000
20:54:11 <AnMaster> "The Viewsonic VP2290b-3 is a rebadged version of this monitor.[citation needed]"
20:54:22 <ehird> 09:19:44 <ais523> suing IBM is widely regarded to be an incredibly stupid move
20:54:22 <ehird> No context required
20:54:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it is true
20:54:57 <ehird> Who knows, who cares. Too expensive. Buy used.
20:55:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anything like a 2D bitmap game would suck on it. But maybe scaling wouldn't look quite as bad as usual?
20:55:52 <ehird> Scaling would look fine.
20:55:57 <ehird> Each pixel is so small that it'd look perfect.
20:56:03 <ehird> No antialiasing required.
20:56:07 <fizzie> And you don't need more than one card if the card's good enough. (Admittedly all "good enough" cards I see in the local retailer's web page take up two slots and have four-digit prices, so...)
20:56:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:57:54 <ehird> 10:31:30 <fizzie> The sword alone can't stop!
20:58:47 <ehird> 10:36:36 <AnMaster> fungot, *prod*
20:58:47 <ehird> 10:36:37 <fungot> AnMaster: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...
20:58:47 <fungot> ehird: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
20:58:47 <fungot> ehird: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
20:59:06 <ehird> 10:38:04 <fizzie> I think it's in the ocean palace, when you stick your stick into the mammon machine thing.
20:59:06 <ehird> This channel is PG-13.
21:00:10 <fizzie> No, no, you misunderstand, it's this glowy red thing.
21:03:01 <AnMaster> "<fungot> ehird: [...] our only hope." <-- why did this make me thing of star wars
21:03:01 <fungot> AnMaster: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!!!
21:03:20 <AnMaster> fungot, you are confused about gender
21:03:20 <fungot> AnMaster: cyrus! are you leaving! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
21:03:51 <fizzie> Help me, Obi-Wan fungot, you are our only hope.
21:03:52 <fungot> fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
21:04:23 <fizzie> Apparently it was "my", not "our". But still.
21:04:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you never played chrono trigger?
21:05:20 <ehird> That PG-13 thing was a joke. But no.
21:05:28 <ehird> I do believe you didn't either until you asked fizzie what ct was. :P
21:07:48 <MizardX> I've played Chrono Trigger... and Chrono Cross
21:09:09 <ehird> I wonder if you can ditch /etc/hostname and just get the hostname from /etc/hosts.
21:10:33 <ehird> Generally the init system uses sethostname(), I guess.
21:10:48 <fizzie> The file itself is pretty superfluous, since the "gethostname" library function gets it from the kernel; as far as I know, the file's just used to sethostname on startup at some point.
21:14:00 <fizzie> Speaking of the host name, for some reason it annoys me when OS X automagically fiddles with the host name when I connect to interwebs via different wlans or gprsies. Makes the prompt all ugly. (Maybe I should just stick a fixed string in the prompt, though.)
21:15:43 * ehird tries to compile NetBSD's coreutil-type things on OS X
21:15:59 <ehird> fizzie: Doesn't do that for me.
21:16:00 <ehird> You can set the hostname, you know.
21:16:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
21:16:23 <ehird> [~]$ grep -r Bournemouth /etc
21:16:34 <ehird> /etc/hostconfig:HOSTNAME=Bournemouth
21:16:36 <ehird> Yes, it's "going away", whatever
21:16:53 <ehird> Then sudo hostname Bournemouth to kick it off, I guess
21:17:44 <fizzie> Fiddling with configuration files? How very not OS Xy. (I think I've set the "computer name" thing from the settings dialogs somewhere, though I can't be sure there's no hostname-setting somewhere in the networking setups.)
21:17:59 <ehird> I think the GUI edits that
21:18:32 <ehird> Anyway, then I'll just do sethostname(lookupdnswhateverthecurrentflavourofthemonthis("127.0.0.1"))
21:19:07 <ehird> Looks like I'll be writing my own init
21:19:30 <ehird> Can't be hard, can it
21:19:36 <ehird> Kernel's done all that pesky booting and all
21:22:30 <ehird> I wish I had an ext2 driver for OS X that can mount loopbacks.
21:23:47 <fizzie> I don't know anything about OS X's ext2 drivers, but if they are sensible enough, one would think that you could be able to just attach images with hdiutil.
21:24:06 <fizzie> "Raw disk images from other operating systems (e.g. .iso files) will be recognized as disk images and can be attached and mounted if OS X recognizes the filesystems." Well, I guess that depends.
21:24:31 <ehird> They don't actually exist, though.
21:24:44 <ehird> There isn't an ext2 driver that works in 10.5 as far as I can tell.
21:24:50 <ehird> Also, it's literally an .ext2
21:24:55 <ehird> Oh, great ... http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/bin/?only_with_tag=MAIN
21:25:04 <ehird> http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/usr.bin/?only_with_tag=MAIN
21:25:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder if you can ditch /etc/hostname and just get the hostname from /etc/hosts. <-- at least gentoo doesn't use /etc/hostname
21:25:41 <ehird> I guess weeding out the actual core utilities, getting them to build on Linux, and then working from that codebase is the thing to do
21:27:20 <ehird> Groan, I've forgotten how to use CVS.
21:27:58 <ehird> You have to do some kind of stupid login procedure that it somehow remembers the next command, don't you?
21:28:19 <ehird> cvs login anonymous blah blah blahh
21:28:20 <ehird> cvs checkout blah blah blah
21:28:39 <ehird> And it's really weird that it, you know, remembers your login the next command
21:28:42 <fizzie> Someone says ext2fsx's debug build works on Intel 10.5; nothing works on 10.6, though, and ext2fsx isn't the most trustworthy-looking piece of software there is. (sf.net "helpful review" #2: "Thanks for ruining my data. My drive is completely hosed.")
21:28:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is stored in $HOME/.cvspass
21:28:56 <ehird> fizzie: Yeah, I saw that.
21:28:57 <AnMaster> rather than "remember to next command" only
21:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, svn stores login stuff somewhere too. All VCS has to store stuff like push/pull/whatever urls and such
21:30:02 <AnMaster> well, all network enabled ones
21:30:32 <ehird> Yes, but the way it's "logging in" with CVS is weird.
21:30:53 <ehird> It's not "hey, remember my server details", it's modelled as "log in to the server, check out, and forget about it"
21:30:54 <fizzie> Oh, I've found the CVS separate-login-step strange too. It's a weird place to split the checkout/"clone" operation at.
21:31:06 <ehird> Groan, cvs directories everywhere
21:31:22 <ehird> [~/Junk]$ mkdir bin; cd bin; CVSROOT=anoncvs@anoncvs.NetBSD.org:/cvsroot cvs checkout -P src/bin
21:31:25 <ehird> Worked for me, FWIW
21:31:28 <ehird> Without a login step
21:31:56 <ehird> And it hasn't remembered anything; good
21:32:00 <ehird> #$NetBSD: Makefile,v 1.22 2007/12/31 15:31:24 ad Exp $
21:32:00 <ehird> #@(#)Makefile8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93
21:32:00 <ehird> SUBDIR=cat chio chmod cp csh date dd df domainname echo ed expr hostname \
21:32:01 <ehird> kill ksh ln ls mkdir mt mv pax ps pwd rcp rcmd rm rmdir sh \
21:32:01 <ehird> sleep stty sync test
21:32:01 <ehird> .include <bsd.subdir.mk>
21:32:08 <ehird> I'm not downloading your whole build infrastructure :P
21:32:20 <ehird> #$NetBSD: Makefile,v 1.12 2003/05/18 07:57:31 lukem Exp $
21:32:21 <ehird> #@(#)Makefile8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93
21:32:21 <ehird> .include <bsd.prog.mk>
21:32:24 <ehird> Nice Makefile, you cocks.
21:32:31 <AnMaster> /1 :pserver:anonymous@jsbsim.cvs.sourceforge.net:2401/cvsroot/jsbsim A
21:32:35 <ehird> At least OS X has bsdmake.
21:32:52 <AnMaster> (and I doubt anyone here is interested in jsbsim :P)
21:32:55 <ehird> "/Users/ehird/Junk/bin/src/bin/cat/../Makefile.inc", line 9: Malformed conditional ((${MKDYNAMICROOT} == "no"))
21:32:55 <ehird> "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif
21:32:55 <ehird> bsdmake: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue
21:32:57 <fizzie> That's what my ~/.cvspass looks like too; four repositories, all have just "A" (for "anonymous"?) as the secret.
21:33:04 <ehird> Oookay, my bsdmake has thingies.
21:33:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is some other one
21:33:14 <ehird> Then who was invalid error?
21:33:18 <AnMaster> /1 :pserver:cvsguest@cvs.flightgear.org:2401/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 AIbdZ,
21:33:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it probably needs the whole build tree?
21:33:39 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I have that /usr/share/mk file.
21:33:51 <ehird> I guess it needs to be NetBSD's for some reason.
21:34:05 <ehird> OS X shipping with a bsdmake file that its bsdmake trips over on
21:34:26 * ehird compiles cat manually
21:34:37 <ehird> Good code, incidentally.
21:34:44 <ehird> Apart from the mass of indentation.
21:34:57 <ehird> It reaches 7 levels of indentation.
21:35:04 <ehird> Function, for, if, if, if, and line continuation.
21:35:31 <ehird> Function, for, if, if, if, if, line continuation.
21:35:55 <ehird> [~/Junk/bin/src/bin/cat]$ ./cat -?
21:35:55 <ehird> ./cat: illegal option -- ?
21:35:55 <ehird> usage: cat [-beflnstuv] [-] [file ...]
21:36:05 <AnMaster> ehird, about cat. I met someone mad recently
21:36:05 <ehird> Oh dear, it has cat -v :-P
21:36:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no. Someone who claimed that a cat that didn't try to use mmap() when possible was basically shit
21:36:52 <AnMaster> (falling back on read() when mmap wasn't supported and/or the file didn't handle it, say, char device, standard input or such)
21:37:12 <ehird> Methinks csh will not be part of my core utilities.
21:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me, does that netbsd cat properly support -u?
21:37:25 <AnMaster> that is the only POSIX option for cat
21:37:28 <ehird> -u The -u option guarantees that the output is unbuffered.
21:37:34 <ehird> It may guarantee it by, say, doing nothing.
21:37:50 <ehird> Anyway, mmf. I'd prefer it had no options at all.
21:37:51 <AnMaster> ehird, freebsd one and gnu one doesn't do what you would epect
21:37:54 <ehird> Then again, compatibility is king...
21:38:04 <ehird> Most BSD utilities are almost identical.
21:38:30 <AnMaster> ehird, cat -e is like the only one I ever use. Not sure if *bsd cat -e is same as gnu cat -e
21:38:37 <ehird> [~/Junk/bin/src/bin/cp]$ cc cp.c utils.c -o cp
21:38:37 <ehird> Love how simple it is to compile
21:38:45 <ehird> AnMaster: -e and -v are evil.
21:39:08 <ehird> -e and -v are useful, but evil.
21:39:12 <ehird> -e is -v with printing endlines.
21:39:20 <ehird> "cat came back from Berkeley waving flags" — Rob Pike
21:39:31 <AnMaster> but yeah, those doesn't belong in cat
21:39:35 <ehird> cat should concatenate files; formatting them is outside its scope
21:39:37 <AnMaster> probably should be od or something like that
21:39:46 <ehird> It should be scrub
21:39:48 <ehird> or some other nice name
21:39:58 <AnMaster> ehird, scrub doesn't seem relevant here
21:40:01 <ehird> scrub for -v, scrub -n for newlines
21:40:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I made it up.
21:40:17 <ehird> It scrubs unprintables.
21:40:24 <ehird> scrub == cat -v; scrub -n == cat -e
21:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, converts them to other chars instead
21:40:29 <ehird> Small utilities that do one thing. That's Unix.
21:40:46 <ehird> Come up with a better name.
21:40:51 <AnMaster> ehird, scurb should probably have a "just remove, not replace" option then
21:40:58 <ehird> But it shouldn't go in od, either, because that's a kitchen sink.
21:41:05 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and "unprintable". Clearly this needs to be locale and encoding aware
21:41:13 <ehird> AnMaster: DIE, FOUL DEMON!
21:41:15 <AnMaster> since in an UTF-8 locale it would differ
21:41:29 <ehird> Bringer of death and destruction!
21:41:48 <AnMaster> ehird, it should scrub the £ symbol btw
21:42:12 <ehird> Filthy non-mercans.
21:45:04 * ehird compiles NetBSD's csh for shits and giggles
21:45:11 <ehird> This is kinda pointless, I am, after all, on a BSD
21:45:22 <ehird> Still, it'll probably all run on Linux.
21:45:38 <ehird> csh is gross in more than usage; oh its code
21:46:19 <ehird> Yikes. csh doesn't build. Uh. Good.
21:49:31 <ehird> I wish X wasn't so mandatory.
21:50:21 <ehird> ("The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't do anything for you." — Ken Thompson :P)
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21:55:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I guess openoffice actually *does* something for you then
21:55:35 <ehird> Does rape count as doing something *for* you?
21:55:44 <ehird> It's a good question...
21:57:13 <ehird> It doesn't run on Linux, for one; it isn't open source, for one; it's unmaintained, for one; it doesn't support modern hardware, for one; it isn't backwards-compatible with X, for one.
21:57:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your opinion on gnustep?
21:58:14 <ehird> OS X's unpopular predecessor without the decent architecture? Maintained by GNU idiots?
21:59:37 -!- fax has joined.
22:00:46 <ehird> Wonder what distro and what hardware I should use to bootstrap.
22:02:53 <ehird> Oh, god, there is a site called "boycottboycottnovell.com"
22:02:55 -!- ehird has left (?).
22:02:57 -!- ehird has joined.
22:02:58 -!- ehird has left (?).
22:03:02 -!- ehird has joined.
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22:05:55 <fax> fungot: style
22:05:56 <fungot> fax: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle!
22:06:02 <fax> fungot: style
22:06:02 <fungot> fax: the knight spirit has the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the
22:06:09 <fax> hurrah to the hero!
22:06:18 <ehird> Hurrah to the hero that sword alone can't stop.
22:09:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:09:18 <AnMaster> "boycottboycottnovell.com" <-- huh
22:10:22 <oerjan> boycottboycottboycottrecursion.com
22:11:01 <pikhq> endorseendorseendorseendorserecursion.com
22:11:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was a new one I think
22:11:36 <oerjan> read it hours ago (TM)
22:11:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, *tries to remember which theme it was*
22:12:20 <oerjan> but if steve summons enough of them...
22:13:11 <oerjan> they and cthulhu should form AAAS
22:13:30 <oerjan> Ancient Abominations Against Steve
22:13:54 <oerjan> actually make that AAAAAS
22:13:59 <ehird> Maybe I should finally give Gentoo a try...
22:14:03 <oerjan> Ancient Abominations And Alligators Against Steve
22:14:10 <ehird> But, ugh, what a waste of time.
22:15:23 <AnMaster> ehird, wait, you never tried it?
22:16:07 <ehird> Yeah, unless Gentoo somehow subverts logic and reason — or everyone who has said anything about Gentoo that I've read lied — I deducted that it is bad.
22:16:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it. Too many options
22:16:23 <ehird> I hope you are joking.
22:16:27 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, you have three cron implementations to choose from in the standard distro
22:16:37 <ehird> Regardless, I'd bother trying it if it wasn't for the whole "LOL 24 HOUR INSTALL PROCESS"
22:16:48 <ehird> "Look at the massive size of our source-based ecocks"
22:17:01 <ehird> AnMaster: The simplest and smallest!
22:17:14 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you want to turn off most useflags then
22:17:24 <fax> hurrah to the hero!
22:17:35 <AnMaster> needless to say I have more than usual ammount
22:17:45 <AnMaster> USE="3dnow acpi ccache sse sse2 pic nptl glep -gnome mmx pcre unicode objc bash-completion acl 3dnowext caps emacs cairo logrotate vorbis jpeg2k openexr fontconfig mozdevelop nsplugin ieee1394 lm_sensors fbcon dvdr sndfile javascript -java mysqli iconv gmp bzip2 exif cdb gd curl ogg truetype gdbm expat flac mad audiofile mng lcms idn dri mono scanner sqlite ppds -eds tcl tk nptlonly -ldap usb foomatic
22:17:45 <AnMaster> db tiff -esd -oss xpm -hal imlib -xml utempter idea mbox pdf mmxext physfs qt3support ipv6 xcomposite -kerberos kqemu zsh-completion gnutls iproute2 joystick dbus rle -apache2 fastcgi kdehiddenvisibility kdeenablefinal nodrm lyx loop-aes -arts geoip -branding -libnotify mmap -mysql webdav-serf sasl -bluetooth -openmp cddb pg-intdatetime -accessibility -ssse3 -consolekit -php"
22:18:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: did you have to do that just as i was about to chastise fax for spamming
22:19:00 <ehird> it was two lines nobody really cares about
22:19:00 <ehird> also, -libnotify? why?
22:19:01 <AnMaster> ehird, that is just the global use flags
22:19:12 <AnMaster> ehird, there are package specific ones in another file
22:19:21 <AnMaster> like category/package foo -bar
22:19:41 <fax> oerjan what the hell are you talking about
22:19:54 * pikhq wonders if Gentoo still supports using uclibc...
22:19:56 <ehird> hmm, i should write a libnotify client/server/whatever thing that uses dwm's status
22:20:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't see the point of libnotify
22:20:17 <oerjan> fax: <fax> hurrah to the hero!
22:20:34 <pikhq> Oh, god. A 2005.1 profile?
22:20:37 <ehird> Lets you know when you have been emailed / IMed / name mentioned on IRC.
22:20:38 <pikhq> I'm going to say "no".
22:20:46 <ehird> tbh I'll probably bootstrap from arc
22:20:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I remember back before eselect
22:21:23 * pikhq finds eselect tolerable, but would something better.
22:22:11 <AnMaster> a bit slow, always wonder how they managed that
22:22:18 <pikhq> It's a shell script.
22:22:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, opinion on pkgcore? And on paludis (spelling?)
22:23:39 <pikhq> Never tried either.
22:24:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, paludis depends on boost you know? And is written (from what I have heard) in rather bad style. As in "worst of C++"
22:24:17 <fax> fungot: style
22:24:17 <fungot> fax: you! take! we find! that sword alone can't stop, crono! are you leaving!
22:24:33 <fungot> AnMaster: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! are you leaving!
22:24:34 <fax> what's the most esoteric language
22:24:36 <ehird> You know that boost makes using C++ not make you want to kill yourself too much, right?
22:24:40 <ehird> At least if you're good at self-delusion.
22:24:45 <ehird> Sure, internally... but...
22:25:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well, sure, but a package manager depending on something so prone to ABI breakage
22:25:22 <AnMaster> and, well, it is unclean in other parts
22:25:35 <ehird> ABI breakage! Hooray, static binaries.
22:25:42 <pikhq> Not that Portage is much better, AnMaster. It uses Python...
22:25:46 <AnMaster> oh and the main dev is quite... rude against everyone who disagrees with him
22:25:58 <ehird> Static binaries — never worry about your package manager being broken!
22:25:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, true, but generally that breaks less
22:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, arch used to have pacman.static but iirc it was dropped
22:28:04 <ehird> Heck, you can even manage your packages from a linux boot floppy. :P
22:28:13 <ehird> By which I mean a really pathological one.
22:28:17 <ehird> Otherwise that's nothing special.
22:29:00 <ehird> IDEA: Statically link the kernel into every binary!
22:29:14 <ais523> that would only work if you could easily hotswap kernels
22:29:17 <fizzie> Hurrah, hurrah. (It's a combination of "Hurrah to the Hero and Guardia!" and "Peace at last, thanks to the Hero! Hurrah for the Hero! Hurrah for Guardia!".)
22:29:24 <ais523> heh, every binary in its own VM would be decent for security
22:29:57 <ehird> ais523: Total portability, though!
22:30:09 <fizzie> The Perl script again doesn't get stuck in a loop: http://pastebin.com/m73626919
22:30:10 <pikhq> And would actually work tolerably on a non-x86 system.
22:30:13 <AnMaster> ais523, a bit of pain for usability
22:30:15 <ais523> no, because you'd need some OS-independent way to run the kernels
22:30:26 <ais523> clearly, you need to compile the bootloader in too
22:30:44 <ehird> ais523: And the CPU microcode.
22:30:49 <ehird> And the CPU microcode interpreter.
22:30:56 <AnMaster> ais523, you would need an universal binary to support different platforms
22:30:58 <ais523> AnMaster: multiboot as in simultaneous multiple boot
22:31:02 <ais523> ehird: and the VHDL for the hardware
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22:31:08 <ehird> AnMaster: You just include the hardware.
22:31:14 <ehird> ais523: and the VHDL emulator
22:31:20 <ehird> which is a linux binary
22:31:42 <ais523> you get your computer to build new computers to run the applications on
22:31:56 <ais523> incidentally, this conversation is a good reflection on Feather
22:32:29 <AnMaster> ais523, how is it a good reflection on Feather?
22:32:45 <ais523> AnMaster: the infinite regress of emulation layers
22:32:48 <ais523> Feather manages to simulate that
22:33:00 <ais523> by retroactively adding more stages to the regress whenever they'd ever become relevant
22:33:05 <fizzie> "hurrah to the hero, he might be the one to bring forth an immense evil... ...humans make them that way."
22:33:48 <ais523> AnMaster: no, busy preparing for devnull
22:33:52 <ais523> are you planning to play?
22:34:04 <fax> hurrah to the hero!
22:34:30 <ehird> devnull? Rings a bell.
22:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I never liked playing against people
22:35:22 <ais523> ehird: NetHack tournament
22:35:26 <AnMaster> ais523, as in, I much prefer single player
22:35:38 <AnMaster> and that much lag is implausible
22:35:42 <ais523> it thinks it's the longest-running Internet gaming tournament in existence, and nobody has sent it a counterexample yet
22:35:55 <ehird> Also, it thinks nothing.
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ais523, counterexample of what?
22:36:23 <ais523> <devnull> /dev/null has been holding an annual NetHack Tournament, beginning at midnight on Halloween, since 1999. This appears to make /dev/null/nethack the longest running gaming tournament on the Internet; folks who've looked into this have told us that they've found two other tournaments claiming this title, one at 6 years old and the other at 4 years old (as of the summer of 2008), so this may very well be the case.
22:36:42 <AnMaster> ais523, oh should that be "sent in" rather than "sent it"?
22:36:55 <ehird> ais is anthropomorphising it.
22:36:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I was anthropomorphising inappropriately
22:37:01 <ehird> ais523: well, it certainly isn't the oldest, and it certainly isn't the one with the most games played
22:37:10 <ehird> AnMaster: don't worry, it's very awkward and confusing to me too
22:37:32 <ais523> ehird: what older one do you know of?
22:37:38 <ais523> I'm sure they'd be happy to find a counterexample
22:37:53 <ehird> Of course people have organised tournaments before that.
22:37:58 <ehird> They might not still exist, though.
22:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, the point is not when, but for how long
22:38:21 <ehird> e.g. Quake II tournaments have almost certainly been organised before 1999; I don't know if any still exist
22:38:33 <ehird> [21:37] ehird: ais523: well, it certainly isn't the oldest, and it certainly isn't the one with the most games played
22:38:44 <ehird> I was saying that it only has a chance of winning in one metric.
22:38:57 <AnMaster> but that was the relevant metric for this discussion
22:39:12 <ehird> I was just noting.
22:39:51 * AnMaster realises he would need a new computer to handle it
22:40:12 <AnMaster> since I doubt I could fit in high end enough graphics card
22:41:14 <ehird> Well, AGP was the thing when the T221 was around...
22:41:52 <ehird> Anyway... get two Radeon 5870s... shit iwll scream.
22:42:01 <ehird> (And a new computer to fit them :P)
22:42:24 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I bust my budget at the screen alone already
22:43:08 <AnMaster> oh well, one can always dream I guess...
22:43:13 <ehird> 5870 costs about $400
22:43:33 <ehird> So I'd say $3,300 total expense could get you two of them and a T221.
22:47:02 <ehird> No T221s seem to be for sale on the int'webs.
22:48:46 <ehird> Very high-resolution display, IBM, circa 2001.
22:49:17 <ehird> If you're lucky, you can get 41 Hz refresh out of it.
22:49:33 <ehird> Less DVI links? 13 Hz.
22:49:45 <ehird> (13, 25, 41 for single, double and quad DVI links)
22:50:15 <ehird> Well, yeah, but that one's hard to get.
22:50:23 <ehird> Like, I don't know if anyone had it.
22:50:30 <ehird> Reading it again, it would be easy.
22:50:33 <ehird> Since it's just a regular update.
22:50:38 <ehird> So 48 Hz, pretty good. But still.
22:50:49 <ehird> That's 48 fps max.
22:50:52 <AnMaster> ehird, my normal TFT runs at 60 Hz iirc
22:51:11 <ehird> Well, apart from this oddball.
22:51:16 <ehird> "On 19 March 2002, IBM announced lowering the price of IBM T221 from US$17,999 to US$8,399."
22:51:31 <ehird> So the guy who got it for $2,500 in 2004 is one lucky fucker.
22:53:08 <ehird> http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/topping/archives/000856_life_with_the_ibm_t221.html
22:53:35 <ehird> http://codehaus.org/~topping/screen.JPG
22:53:37 <ehird> is a screenshot of his work space
22:53:42 <ehird> Notable is that TINY FONT in Eclipse.
22:53:51 <ehird> Wait, not Eclipse.
22:54:32 <ehird> Oh, he got it for $3,000
22:55:05 <ehird> "I typically run by day it at max resolution, and by night, reconfigure it to 1920x1200. This is basically uses a 2x2 square of native screen for every image pixel and is a more standard resolution at about 100dpi (good for tired eyes!)"
22:55:10 <ehird> You could use that to play games.
22:55:22 <ehird> Good res for such a smooth scaling.
22:55:37 <ehird> But yeah: Ow, tiny!
22:55:40 -!- augur has joined.
23:05:40 <oerjan> and augur kills the channel again
23:06:40 <ehird> Hardware should be illegal!
23:07:41 <ehird> ps ais523 http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/TabsSpacesBoth.png
23:07:56 <ais523> ehird: and that's on emacswiki?
23:07:56 <oerjan> if we're in the matrix, and the matrix is recursive, then maybe there is no hardware
23:08:02 <ais523> tell emacs not to use tabs and spaces by default
23:08:24 <ehird> ais523: that doesn't fix other people's code.
23:08:46 <fizzie> It's on the page where they tell you how to configure it to use tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. (At least; it might be on other pages too.)
23:08:59 <oerjan> it's virtuals all the way up!
23:09:03 <Oranjer> oerjan, how could the matrix be recursive?
23:09:05 <ehird> Which isn't the same as indenting with both.
23:09:22 <fizzie> (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SmartTabs, that is.)
23:09:23 <oerjan> Oranjer: by being simulated on another matrix, duh
23:09:41 <Oranjer> that's merely nested, perhaps infinitely
23:09:59 <ehird> fizzie: ais523's reply to that is "tabs are 8 spaces wide always because i said so also everybody thinks this way so there"
23:10:08 <oerjan> maybe it's corecursive instea
23:10:21 <Oranjer> I thought you meant "recursive" as "matrix A contains matrix B, matrix B contains matrix A"
23:11:02 <oerjan> um no, and recursion doesn't have to be identical levels
23:11:19 <oerjan> fac n = n * fac (n-1) never repeats an n between levels
23:11:21 <Oranjer> well, there could be any number of matrixes between them
23:11:53 <oerjan> (and i know i'm leaving out the base case)
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23:12:29 <ehird> "Rotate your widescreen 90 degrees." fuck people who say this, i can't do that :<
23:12:45 <Oranjer> well then, oerjan, what do you mean by recursive matrices?
23:13:24 <oerjan> Oranjer: i think corecursive fits my intuition better, actually. each matrix is simulated inside another, infinitely.
23:13:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> It's on the page where they tell you how to configure it to use tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. (At least; it might be on other pages too.) <-- That is The Right Way
23:13:53 <Oranjer> there's no "reality" that the first matrix is in?
23:14:02 <ehird> Oranjer: you are having real troubles with his joke
23:14:08 <ehird> anyway sure there is PER MODAL REALISM
23:14:11 <oerjan> there is no first matrix
23:14:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's a bitch because of idiots in any language but c.
23:14:43 <AnMaster> "because of idiots in any language but c"?
23:15:02 <oerjan> unless you count from the lowest level, where we are (unless our universe contains a matrix for another somewhere, which might be possible)
23:15:29 <oerjan> hm then it could be infinite both ways
23:15:31 <ehird> AnMaster: protip: if the nesting seems strange, PARSE IT AGAIN
23:16:03 <Oranjer> I presumed that's what you meant by infinite
23:16:11 <Oranjer> also, it reminds me of this short story: http://qntm.org.nyud.net:8090/?responsibility
23:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, i seemed sane. Just unehirdic ;P
23:16:21 <ehird> nyud.net? seriously/
23:16:24 <AnMaster> anyway no I can't figure it out
23:16:43 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's more fun having you trying to figure it out
23:16:52 <ehird> URL without nyud: http://qntm.org/?responsibility
23:17:10 <ehird> Nope, I've lost nothing
23:17:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yes you did. Someone stole that while you were looking the other way!
23:17:47 <ehird> 1. Reincarnation, fucker
23:17:47 <ehird> 2. NO DESIRES, FUCKER
23:18:04 <ehird> Buddhism is awesome because you can cheat at it!
23:18:12 <ehird> Just never become enlightened, ever, and you'll be reincarnated eternally.
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23:19:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: hey i was remembering that story too
23:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I think you can be even when enlightened. Look at Dalai Lama
23:19:26 <ehird> AnMaster didnt point to it
23:19:36 <ehird> AnMaster: What about him?
23:19:41 <oklopol> ehird: how's that cheating?
23:19:45 <Oranjer> http://qntm.org/?responsibility
23:19:49 <ehird> In religious terms, the Dalai Lama is believed by his devotees to be the rebirth of a long line of tulkus, who have chosen to be reborn in order to enlighten others
23:19:53 <ehird> the lama isn't enlightened, therefore
23:20:00 <ehird> presumably, just close
23:20:17 <ehird> oklopol: because the cycle is painted as suffering; you're meant to become enlightened, where you die the typical atheist no-more-you death
23:20:28 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure enlightenment is like god mode (light edition) or such :P
23:20:28 <ehird> well, rather, if you're enlightened when you die
23:20:51 <ehird> If you're enlightened, and you die, that's it, dead.
23:21:51 <ehird> http://shii.org/afterlife which, while old and inaccurate for other religions, was written by a Buddhist.
23:22:04 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra
23:22:18 <Oranjer> it's the Buddhist concept of the cycle of life, death, etc.
23:22:21 <ehird> So, cheating at Buddhism = FUCK YEAH! Reincarnation!
23:22:38 <ehird> I'm being silly, Oranjer.
23:22:58 * oerjan notes that MaxChaplin in the comments thought of the same solution as he did
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23:24:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, <AnMaster> oerjan, what story?
23:24:47 <ehird> He meant to target Oranjer.
23:24:55 <ehird> Or perhaps I, who decrufted his link.
23:25:06 <Oranjer> http://qntm.org/?responsibility
23:27:04 <ehird> Sam Hughes is amazing.
23:28:26 <ehird> 2009-07-31 12:19:56 by Sam:
23:28:26 <ehird> I don't know what you people are talking about. There is a top reality. Because I say so. It's my story.
23:28:28 <ehird> Oranjer: sam hughes = qntm.org
23:28:41 <Oranjer> okay, I just found that out with google
23:34:57 <ehird> http://www.podtycoon.com/shutdown/
23:35:42 <ehird> I almost wished it were true.
23:36:20 <Oranjer> I actually had the theory that we were living in a documentary about the real Bush's life
23:36:32 <ehird> Go back to the page.
23:36:36 <ehird> Or you'll be randomly assigned.
23:36:52 <ehird> Shut up, you fool! Go back!
23:40:03 <ehird> "A Formalization of Darcs Patch Theory Using Inverse Semigroups"
23:42:22 <AnMaster> ehird, done it. Selected online
23:42:41 <ehird> There'd be an opportunity to argue for AI rights later.
23:42:48 <ehird> And it leaves the possibility of virtual simulations.
23:42:59 <ehird> Plus it's the only option which lets you contact the real world.
23:45:35 <fizzie> It is the most popularest thing. Though I have to wonder: why Finland?
23:45:48 <Oranjer> hey, I also selected Online!
23:45:49 <ehird> Maybe the author lives there.
23:46:02 <fizzie> Not according to his life-story page; http://www.fordfam.com/matthew/matthew_life.html
23:46:21 <ehird> Anyway, because it's a techno-ish country?
23:46:23 <Sgeo> I must not have been an AC. It just said "Poof!"
23:46:37 <ehird> Online is basically the best idea.
23:46:40 <Sgeo> I guess that's what it does for bots, to keep them thinking it's a joke
23:46:41 <ehird> It will redirect, and you're—
23:46:50 <fizzie> fungot: What did you pick?
23:46:50 <fungot> fizzie: frog will do. that frog's hand! you got the broken! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?! well, remember that you can log in anywhere on the world map! need a brief weapons and items seminar?
23:46:55 <ehird> Sgeo must be a bot now.
23:46:58 <fizzie> I don't think there was a "frog" option.
23:47:09 <ehird> It must have stayed at Poof!, instead of waiting a second or two and it happening.
23:47:37 <ehird> Online is the best option, although if you just want infinite bliss, dream or an appropriate religion's afterlife is good.
23:47:43 <ehird> Oranjer: Don't be silly!
23:47:53 <ehird> Of course we're not. You can hear me, right?
23:47:59 <ehird> The page is clearly just a joke. Pretty stupid one too.
23:48:03 <ehird> Why are we wasting our time on this?
23:48:16 <ehird> Come on, it's retarded! Like a futurist's wet dream! HURFDURF
23:48:21 -!- coppro has joined.
23:48:22 <ehird> Yeah, I was linking to it because it's REEEEEEEETAAAAAAARDEEEEEEEEEEED
23:48:23 <Sgeo> I think ehird's bot is acting the way it thinks ehird would pretend to be a bot
23:48:25 <Oranjer> because you're a bot tasked with finding the rest of the AC's!!!
23:48:59 <ehird> "The bots are programmed to mock it" is so stupid because it DEFLECTS REAL CRITICISM; like YOUR MOM WOULD.
23:48:59 <ehird> Huuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
23:49:15 <ehird> And, furthermore, "And, furthermore, "And, furthermore, "Stack overflow
23:50:16 <Oranjer> "the devil put the fossils in the ground, and constructed the pre-christian religions"
23:50:51 <Oranjer> I don't believe bots aren't real people
23:51:07 <ehird> Why do you think I don't believe bots aren't real people?
23:51:15 <ehird> What makes you feel like ha?
23:51:35 <Oranjer> I never said anything about your opinion on bots
23:51:49 <ehird> Can you elaborate on I never said anything about your opinion on bots?
23:51:52 <Oranjer> the "nooo ehird" was "oh no ehird you're a bot"
23:52:07 <ehird> I'll do the talking here.
23:52:22 <Oranjer> you asked me why I thought you don't believe bots aren't real people, and I responded by saying that I never said such a thing
23:52:39 <ehird> Why do you think you feel you asked me why I thought you don't believe bots aren't real people, and I responded by saying that I never said such a thing?
23:52:58 <Sgeo> ehird's been replaced with ELIZA
23:53:10 <ehird> Why do you think that ehird's been replaced with ELIZA? Something from your childhood?
23:53:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> I'll do the talking here. <-- fail. should be "asking"
23:53:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll do the talking here.
23:53:48 <ehird> Why do you feel AHHHHHHHHHH?
23:53:56 <ehird> Please, tell me more about save yourself!.
23:54:10 <ehird> Why do you say hahahaha?
23:54:22 <Oranjer> fungot, did you and ehird switch consciousnesses?
23:54:23 <fungot> Oranjer: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
23:54:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Permission denied
23:54:32 <ehird> You are not in /etc/sudoers
23:54:35 <ehird> This incident will be reported.
23:54:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no one reads system logs anyway (except me)
23:55:03 <ehird> It sends an email to root, actually.
23:55:19 <ehird> Also, good point. Maybe I should disable logs. :P
23:55:30 <AnMaster> ehird, no. Good for when things break
23:55:42 <ehird> Some logs could do with disabling though...
23:56:01 <AnMaster> ehird, but most people don't routinely check for non-whitelisted log entries
23:56:46 <ehird> Grr, I wish there was a good minimal coreutils replacement.
23:56:50 <AnMaster> ehird, list of regex, anything not matching in logs is reported to me
23:56:59 <ehird> Instead of digging through BSD source trees...
23:57:41 <ehird> Busybox is not minimalist, it's useless. :P
00:00:17 <ehird> I think I will use Dropbear for the standard ssh server and client.
00:00:20 <ehird> http://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html
00:09:19 <ehird> What's the opposite of a dependency?
00:09:28 <ehird> i.e., thing-that-depends-on
00:09:34 <ehird> rather than thiing-that-is-depended-on
00:19:15 <pikhq> ehird: http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/tools.html
00:20:04 <ehird> Yeah, I know; but rabid devotion to olde unixes is not rational. You won't see any simplifying improvements from Heirloom.
00:20:09 <ehird> Nevertheless, it is one option.
00:20:24 <MizardX> depender depends on dependee
00:20:41 <MizardX> though, I don't know if they are real words
00:20:42 <pikhq> http://asm.sourceforge.net/asmutils.html ?
00:20:44 <ehird> MizardX: right, but I want the analogue to dependency :P
00:21:17 <ehird> pikhq: Might as well just use Busybox then; more widely used, just as over-minimal and without the crazy assemblyness.
00:21:18 <ehird> Thanks for reminding me of Heirloom, though.
00:21:56 <ehird> pikhq: If you're adventurous, could you see if the programs in `CVSROOT=anoncvs@anoncvs.NetBSD.org:/cvsroot cvs checkout -P src/bin` will compile on Linux? Small download.
00:22:15 <ehird> Makefiles are broken without the surrounding tree; just do `cc -I. *.c -o name` in a directory.
00:22:21 <ehird> Most compile here on OS X; some don't, though.
00:22:29 <ehird> But then, OS X is basically BSD.
00:22:44 <pikhq> ehird: Lemme pull up my i686 vm.
00:22:55 <ehird> Why, what are you using now?
00:23:17 <ehird> Shouldn't change things, but okay.
00:23:18 <ehird> Heh, their ed doesn't support i
00:23:25 <pikhq> Though, it's *NetBSD*. I'd imagine they're somewhat smart about architectures.
00:23:35 <Oranjer> wait, isn't that which depends a "dependent"?
00:23:44 <ehird> The context is an error like:
00:24:15 <ehird> $ rmpkg important-thing
00:24:15 <ehird> Can't; (word)s are:
00:24:16 <ehird> some-other-program
00:24:16 <ehird> If you're sure, use -f.
00:24:23 <ehird> i.e. can't; things that depend on this are:
00:25:06 <pikhq> So many compile errors...
00:25:45 <ehird> cd ed; cc -I. *.c -o ed
00:26:04 <pikhq> buf.c:36: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant
00:26:13 <pikhq> buf.c:107: error: ‘MAXINT’ undeclared (first use in this function)
00:26:17 <ehird> static char *rcsid = "@(#)buf.c,v 1.4 1994/02/01 00:34:35 alm Exp";
00:26:17 <ehird> __RCSID("$NetBSD: buf.c,v 1.26 2006/03/17 14:37:14 rumble Exp $");
00:26:23 <pikhq> ... It goes on further.
00:26:23 <ehird> Somehow, I doubt that's the line 36 it's talking about.
00:26:45 <ehird> static const char rcsid[] __attribute__((__unused__)) = "$NetBSD: buf.c,v 1.26 2006/03/17 14:37:14 rumble Exp $";
00:26:56 <ehird> WTF is that error about, then?
00:27:22 <ehird> Also... buf.c doesn't say MAXINT, anywhere.
00:27:52 <pikhq> I'm going to go try it on i686.
00:28:05 <ehird> Oh, you were using the x86_64.
00:28:09 <ehird> ... still doesn't explain it.
00:29:17 <ehird> Incidentally, how's this for initlevels:
00:31:40 <MizardX> ehird: How about "supports" ?
00:32:01 <ehird> MizardX: Technically correct, but it seems odd — supports is generally used as in "X supports Y"
00:32:04 -!- iamcal has quit.
00:32:11 <ehird> as opposed to "Can't; supports are:"
00:32:16 <ehird> (contrast "Can't; dependencies are:")
00:33:25 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving").
00:33:33 <ehird> Yeah, that works :-P
00:35:20 <pikhq> It would appears that the problem with NetBSD tools is the macros are hard to hunt down & fetch...
00:35:43 <pikhq> Same issues on i686-pc-linux-gnu, BTW.
00:36:04 <ehird> # define LINECHARS INT_MAX/* max chars per line */
00:36:04 <ehird> # define LINECHARS MAXINT/* max chars per line */
00:36:09 <ehird> pikhq: I think the issue is just header files.
00:36:16 <ehird> #if defined(sun) || defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__APPLE__)
00:36:16 <ehird> # include <limits.h>
00:36:25 <ehird> pikhq: -D__NetBSD__, wouldya?
00:36:48 <pikhq> ehird: <sys/cdefs.h> is probably also causing issues.
00:37:30 <ehird> Such a shame, because these tools are very good... well-maintained, compatible, yet simple.
00:37:54 <pikhq> May be able to get them to work with patching.
00:39:12 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, for ed, you need -lcrypt.
00:39:17 <ehird> Oh, and add -DDES.
00:39:25 <ehird> Oops, and -DBACKWARDS
00:39:31 <ehird> (Reading the Makefile)
00:39:48 <ehird> Oh, I don't have an -lcrypt...
00:40:58 <pikhq> Hmm. Remove the sys/cdefs.h and the following info boilerplate, and... You get linker errors from nonexistent functions.
00:41:07 <pikhq> Since BSD libc has things glibc doesn't.
00:41:20 <ehird> Got any alternative libcs in that VM?
00:41:25 <ehird> Since I won't be using glibc...
00:41:45 <pikhq> Nothing that will have BSD extensions.
00:42:45 <ehird> What a shame this is.
00:42:59 * ehird downloads the Heirloom Toolchest, to look at the code
00:43:33 <pikhq> Also, I can't get asmutils to build at all. *shakes fist*
00:44:00 <ehird> You know what would be nice? If there was a vi clone that wasn't anally vi-compatible, but didn't have vim's bloat.
00:44:17 <ehird> (I hate systems that use a traditional vi clone as `which vi`, but vim?)
00:45:21 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, btw, this is interesting: http://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2008/11/six-million-dollar-libc.html
00:45:25 <ehird> Android's BSD-licensed, minimal libc
00:45:39 <ehird> Uses Doug Lea's malloc (dlmalloc).
00:45:49 * oerjan tried to take the page seriously and chose Annihilation, fwiw
00:46:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, I chose Online
00:46:08 <ehird> oerjan: You're suicidal, then.
00:46:47 <ehird> You know, submitting "Annihilation" is just one of many methods of suicide. If you think it's the right option, you're suicidal.
00:47:03 <Sgeo> It's not like you should be afraid of being bored. If you are, set the time limit
00:47:10 <pikhq> ehird: Will work well for non-C++ stuff, I'd imagine.
00:47:23 <ehird> pikhq: I can get the STL from elsewhere.
00:47:35 <oerjan> conditionally suicidal. the condition being that i were a simulation in a computer in an atheist 23th (?) century world
00:47:36 <Oranjer> who would be afraid of getting bored in either the online or the dream choices?
00:47:56 <ehird> Sgeo: The time limit is for being bored and suffering from akrasia, to be precise (as much as I hate the Less Wrong crowd using that word like it's their baby).
00:47:58 <Oranjer> and in the latter, your memory would fade away eventually
00:48:08 <ehird> Oranjer: Some people think death is a good thing. When pressed they may say that eventual death is a good thing, just not now.
00:48:10 <ehird> They are not rational.
00:48:23 <ehird> But picking Annihilation?
00:48:24 <Oranjer> I agree as to their irrationality
00:48:28 <ehird> That's being suicidal right now.
00:48:50 <ehird> The dream choice is scary... you may eventually adjust, and start to tie together the pieces.
00:49:02 <ehird> And once you do, you stop fooling yourself. But you're trapped.
00:49:06 <oerjan> Oranjer: i was wavering on Dream a bit though
00:49:07 <ehird> Cue consciousness claustrophobia.
00:49:18 <ehird> oerjan: so, any rebuttals to the accusation that you're suicidal?
00:49:34 <Oranjer> ehird, have you seen the movie "Vanilla Sky", or the spanish-language movie it is a remake of?
00:49:54 <ehird> I believe it was on TV one time or something. But it's an old idea.
00:50:11 <oerjan> ehird: depends on your definition of suicidal.
00:50:16 <Oranjer> but your tying it together just reminded me of that
00:50:29 <ehird> oerjan: Well, you had a choice where you could die or not die, and it would be entirely your own choice.
00:50:43 <ehird> And the dying would be a separate action, rather than an inaction or reaction.
00:50:50 <ehird> You chose to die; i.e., you killed yourself. How's that not suicide?
00:50:55 * Sgeo wonders if, in Online, he could program "Dream" for himself
00:51:01 <Sgeo> So I could switch between the two
00:51:15 <ehird> Online is the only open-ended one.
00:51:25 <ehird> Sure, the real dudes will ignore you, but will that be true forever?
00:51:26 <Oranjer> hell, you could maybe create your own body
00:51:36 <oerjan> ehird: it's a suicide in an imagined scenario.
00:51:37 <ehird> Reality is overrated.
00:51:45 <ehird> oerjan: Yes, but you tried to take it seriously, says ye.
00:52:08 <Sgeo> My prefered afterlife would be the one described by Sam Hughes, I think
00:52:20 <oerjan> ehird: i tried to take the _context_ seriously too. my choice was not valid unless i accepted that context.
00:52:48 <ehird> oerjan: So, what? An artificial consciousness is a lesser existence than a real one? Define artificial./
00:53:09 <ehird> Silicon-based instead of carbon-based, what's the difference.
00:53:20 <ehird> Sgeo: Too solitary for me.
00:53:39 <Sgeo> Add in computer terminals with chatrooms!
00:53:48 <Sgeo> And then you could arrange to meet with people
00:54:04 <Sgeo> Deadfacebook.com access, to meet up with all your dead friends
00:54:20 <ehird> http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=294
00:54:34 <ehird> ↑ pretty cool afterlife, if you're not claustrophobic
00:55:00 * Sgeo would get lonely
00:55:11 <Sgeo> And the only way to talk to friends would be to be buried near them :/
00:55:24 <Sgeo> Which really, REALLY, sucks
00:55:42 <Sgeo> Also, what about cremated people. They're dead dead
00:55:55 <ehird> Their ashes wake up!
00:56:05 <ehird> Or, you know, they're dead dead.
00:56:10 <ehird> SO DON'T GET CREMATED
00:56:14 <ehird> Get buried above ground or something
00:56:26 <oerjan> ehird: it wasn't so much the artificiality as _who_ was running it
00:56:37 <ehird> oerjan: but, e.g. in online, it'd be irrelevant
00:56:42 <ehird> he'd have no control over you any more
00:56:45 <ehird> in fact, in all of them it's irrelevant
00:56:49 <ehird> he relinquishes you
00:56:55 <oerjan> by who, i mean which civilization
00:57:03 <ehird> what's wrong with it
00:57:33 <Sgeo> I don't think it explicitely says that
00:57:36 <ehird> yes it does, and he wrote that page
00:57:44 <ehird> besides, you _want_ a dictator to exist? why?
00:57:57 <ehird> god is a scary idea, irrespective of its existence
00:58:14 * Sgeo wants Heaven to exist. If that's dependent on God, then I want God to exist
00:58:34 <ehird> Why do you want heaven to exist? It's not a utopia, it's a dictatorship.
00:58:52 <coppro> The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive
00:59:02 <ehird> but I could not be happy in a dictatorship
00:59:14 <ehird> If you just mean a blissful place, well, what a copout, we can perfectly hypothesise that without god, we could create it
00:59:28 <ehird> Going "oh, but we need god to make it" is just laziness.
00:59:39 <ehird> Or learned helplessness, whatever.
01:00:05 <Oranjer> I also wish to Immanentize the eschaton
01:00:30 <ehird> Funny, I want to stop people using that phrase even though I've never seen it used before.
01:00:56 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing it, or something like it
01:01:04 <Sgeo> ehird, a blissful place for dead people
01:01:18 <ehird> Sgeo: I see. Why dead people?
01:01:21 <Sgeo> Where we can learn whatever we want, interact with whoever we want, if they want to interact with us
01:01:24 <ehird> They're not dead, anyway.
01:01:33 <ehird> An afterlife merely redefines "death".
01:01:40 <ehird> It's not an afterlife, it's just life, stage 2.
01:01:57 <ehird> So, to rephrase, you want to go into the next stage of life, which is an eternal utopia, i.e. no death.
01:02:16 <ehird> We can see that this idea clearly does not require god, and is something that, theoretically, we can do.
01:02:33 <ehird> The only theoretical barrier is entropy, and we'd have a few billion years to work that out.
01:02:48 <ehird> So, basically, you don't really want an "afterlife"; that's a misnomer, and it doesn't require a god or death.
01:03:06 <Sgeo> ehird, but it excludes those who have already died, before this human-made afterlife was built
01:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:03:56 <ehird> Sgeo: If they could possibly partake in it, they are not dead.
01:04:11 <ehird> You don't seem to understand: dead people don't exist. If there is an afterlife, then "death" isn't.
01:04:55 <Sgeo> In my previous statement, by "dead", I meant "dead according to people who are no longer alive in the sense that we currently understand"
01:05:07 <Sgeo> Or some other definition that should be um, understandable
01:06:12 <ehird> Meh. Entertaining such a concept not only goes against Occam's razor and the scientific method, it diverts attention away from "we need to stop people dying".
01:07:45 <MizardX> It's ok to die. In fact, everybody should die. *Presses bu...* Aw... it broke!
01:08:13 <ehird> →→→→→ONWARD→→→→→→→→TO THE BRB STATION→→→→→
01:09:58 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry.
01:10:49 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise.
01:21:26 <ehird> pikhq: Any luck with, I forgot what you were doing?
01:22:28 <ehird> methinks dropbear is good
01:22:47 <ehird> hmm, no sftp in dropbear though
01:39:13 <ehird> Ah, you can use OpenSSH's sftp server with dropbear, it seems.
01:53:00 <ehird> pikhq: Could use http://tools.suckless.org/9base as my slightly-less-core utils! :-P
02:03:04 -!- Kalagar has joined.
02:03:38 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
02:06:43 -!- ehiird has joined.
02:08:46 <ehiird> that show up as "* ehiird test" for anyone else? (the ehiird one)
02:09:18 <Oranjer1> I see it as <CTCP>ACTION tests
02:09:54 <oerjan> ehiird: i saw * ehiird .* both times, though :P
02:10:07 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:10:18 <ehiird> Even for the * ehird tests one?
02:10:23 <ehiird> YOU ARE A HALLUCINATORY MAN, OERJAN
02:10:33 <oerjan> no, that was not one of them
02:10:44 <ehiird> So, anyway, I'm talking via the filesystem-based IRC client ii! And vim with some mappings to send.
02:10:49 <oerjan> both implies 2, you know.
02:11:04 <ehiird> It's quite pleasant, although I could do with a tiling window manager to avoid these big terminal windows.
02:11:32 <ehiird> Also, it displays actions as <name> (inverted .)ACTION foo(inverted .), so I should probably use sed to mangle them into something nicer.
02:12:13 <ehiird> My bindings: we appends to irc.freenode.net/#esoteric/in then does dd (erase line, non-vimites). In insert mode, /me expands to ^AACTION^A<left cursor>.
02:12:25 <ehiird> Specifically, <C-v><C-a>ACTION<C-v><C-a>OD
02:12:41 <ehiird> Erm. That character before OD is escape (^[).
02:13:03 <ehiird> So, when I type /me, it actually expands in front of my eyes. :P
02:13:26 <ehiird> I should make it trigger on /me<space>, probably.
02:13:34 <ehiird> coppro: Nope. Just good old regular files. Put it in tmpfs if you want.
02:13:40 <ehiird> I think it doubles up as a logger this way.
02:14:08 <coppro> ehiird: oh, so it's just a file-monitoring system? lame
02:14:17 <ehiird> It's not lame, it's usable.
02:14:46 <ehiird> I should probably have another sed script that does s/ehird/ehird\007/, but eh.
02:15:01 <ehiird> (And some provisions for not doing that to my own messages; easy enough.)
02:15:22 * ehiird thinks this is actually pretty usable
02:16:39 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
02:16:53 * coppro should make a fuse client
02:17:16 <ehiird> coppro: This has the marked advantage that your logs ARE the IRC window.
02:17:26 <pikhq> NetBSD coreutils. Or asmutils, for that matter.
02:17:29 <ehiird> Physical files, bitch! We need a revolution in non-virtual filesystems. :P
02:17:48 <ehiird> Argh, this is ridiculously comfortable even in its barebones state.
02:17:50 -!- ehird has quit.
02:18:07 <Sgeo> "If you want to know more, you can take the Online option for your afterlife, and you will have all the info you can possibly want about the real world."
02:18:11 <Sgeo> I think that biases things
02:18:34 <Sgeo> It started me thinking "Online" before I ever saw the choices
02:18:47 <ehiird> Because you're a futurist immortalist, probably.
02:19:03 <ehiird> The fact that it seems obvious is b asically just an indicator of your rationality.
02:19:11 <coppro> ehiird: fuse would allow creative things like every user having access
02:19:25 <ehiird> coppro: Elaborate. Isn't that just a+w?
02:19:48 <coppro> ehiird: No. Fuse allows you to discriminate on a per-user basis
02:19:51 <ehiird> Woo! I love this client!
02:20:06 <coppro> so you could make it so that it maintains multiple connections; one per user accessing it
02:20:18 <ehiird> This is simpler, works as a logger, and is easier to set up. Woo physical files!
02:20:24 <ehiird> coppro: That's called "multiple ii processes".
02:20:38 <coppro> ehiird: ah, but you can't use the same directory, can you?
02:20:58 <ehiird> No, which is good because they're different things...
02:21:04 <coppro> (I assume you've picked the sane implementation of having a directory for the server, and a file per channel
02:21:12 <ehiird> Filesystem = namespace = disambiguator.
02:21:34 <ehiird> server/channel/{in,out}. Also server/{in,out} and server/nick/{in,out}.
02:21:39 <ehiird> ii isn't mine, btw. It's by the suckless folks.
02:22:19 <ehiird> in/out is better because you can use tail and editors and shit without filtering, plus it's less magical.
02:22:52 <ehiird> Why's that a bad thing? :P
02:23:10 <coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
02:23:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
02:23:42 <ehiird> Then you'll luuuuuuuurve my Linux distro, presumably.
02:23:58 <Sgeo> "(leaving out the hell and annihilation options, for obvious reasons)" I didn't even see that the first time
02:24:07 <ehiird> By the way, is ehird still in here? I didn't get notification of its departing, but I quit Colloquy.
02:24:24 <oerjan> `addquote <coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
02:24:36 <HackEgo> 99|<coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
02:24:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:24:53 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
02:25:13 <ehiird> Did that lag for anyone else?
02:25:18 <fungot> coppro: you! take! we find! the masamune!!!
02:25:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
02:25:45 <ehiird> (Also: Guys you totally should use my Linux distro when it's ready! It's grrrrrrrreat! Like Frosties.)
02:25:50 <coppro> how do I get the current style?
02:26:02 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
02:26:04 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
02:26:13 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
02:26:22 <ehiird> My "we" just sends one line.
02:27:25 <ehiird> Okay, so I just need to fix deleting and hey presto.
02:27:51 <ehiird> Oh, and if I enable hard wrapping at ~500cols...
02:28:30 <ehiird> Any clever vim users here? What's the best way to delete the whole file's contents?
02:29:36 <ehiird> Clever and obvious; why didn't I think of that?
02:29:50 <ehiird> (Probably because I somehow forgot what % did to :s at some point in time and never looked it up...)
02:30:16 <ehiird> So now, I can just put stuff like this in the buffer:
02:31:36 <ehiird> Why wasn't I informed of this development?
02:33:44 <ehiird> bsmntbombdood: Eh?! Eh?!
02:37:43 <ehiird> Why is HackEgo so slow?
02:37:48 <HackEgo> 39|<GKennethR-L> I'm a furry
02:38:11 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
02:40:44 <Oranjer1> but Oranjer0 doesn't exist anymore
02:40:55 <ehiird> It's true; I saw it on Star Trek.
02:41:00 <ehiird> Wait, is Oranjer still in here? Is ehird?
02:41:12 <ehiird> I think ii isn't showing /parts; how strange.
02:41:19 <Oranjer1> anyway, I'm busy watching I Heart Huckabees
02:41:38 <ehiird> Yeah, well, I Heart YOUR MOM.
02:42:36 -!- ehiird has changed nick to mes.
02:44:06 * mes downloads splitvt to try and unify these two windows
02:44:19 <mes> wait, what? why am I mes
02:44:29 <mes> oh, hm. ah.
02:44:42 <mes> "/names"; a is dropped as the presumable space char, /n = change nick
02:44:45 -!- mes has changed nick to ehird.
02:56:57 <ehird> coppro: another reason real files are awesome -- put it on nfs
02:57:02 <ehird> Voila, IRC bouncer.
02:57:10 <ehird> OH! I JUST BLEW YOUR FUSE!
02:57:38 <ehird> that's... actually a really good idea
02:57:42 <coppro> ehird: can't you NFS a fuse partition?
02:57:50 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:58:02 <ehird> Well, possibly. I wouldn't want to try.
02:58:23 <ehird> It is a good idea, though, isn't it.
02:58:47 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:59:15 <ehird> Also, setting up screen for this is a beeeeeeeeyotch.
03:05:36 <ehird> while read line; do
03:05:36 <ehird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i rhe+t >/dev/null; then
03:05:40 <ehird> Don't see why it shouldn't work.
03:06:02 * ehird modifies that to rhe{2,}t, anyway
03:06:46 <ehird> Heh; that's it picking it up from the logs. Rheeeeet.
03:07:23 <ehird> Okay, so it's picking up lines.
03:08:43 <ehird> Hope this doesn't spam...
03:09:27 <oerjan> piping yes 'Ding!' to irc is generally considered rude, ehird
03:10:06 <ehird> I didn't do that! >_<
03:10:08 <ehird> Also, I can't stop it >_<
03:10:10 <ehird> It should give up... sometime...
03:12:07 * Sgeo once piped yes to someone's terminal
03:12:16 <Sgeo> After they were writing to me while I was in emacs
03:12:54 <ehird> Motherfuck-- ohhhh. Ohh.
03:13:10 <ehird> Fuck grep with a rake.
03:13:32 <Sgeo> No thanks. You might like that, but I don't.
03:13:39 <ehird> Or do you?! Rheet!
03:13:58 <ehird> WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME, GREP?
03:14:34 <ehird> I think I fixed it.
03:15:47 <ehird> Mother-fucking-fucker-shitty-scripting-shelling-iiing-thing-ARGH
03:17:01 <ehird> I think my grep is broken or something
03:17:08 * ehird bangs head against wall. This is annoying.
03:20:12 <ehird> So, I was going to call this an example of how awesomely easy it is to script ii, but that might be seen as disingeneous in light of recent events! However, that was grep's fault (+ needs to be \+; sigh).
03:20:29 <ehird> tail -n 0 -f out |
03:20:29 <ehird> while read line; do
03:20:29 <ehird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then
03:20:34 <ehird> It does the obvious.
03:20:48 <ehird> You can do a nc -e style affair by putting >in after the done.
03:21:01 <Sgeo> rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
03:21:13 <ehird> rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
03:22:15 <Sgeo> Not ii's fault you don't know how to use grep
03:22:22 -!- mad has joined.
03:22:29 <ehird> It's grep's fault its regexp format is so retarded. :P
03:22:37 <ehird> s/fault/fault that/, I guess.
03:22:50 <ehird> Oh, and watch as I forward a channel to another channel!
03:23:34 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:23 -!- ehird(n=ehiird@91.105.101.218) has joined #esoteric-blah
03:23:34 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:23 -!- ChanServ changed mode/#esoteric-blah -> -s+tc-o ehird
03:23:47 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:23 <ehird> rheet
03:23:55 <ehird> (My rheet-script only executes in here. Go on, join #esoteric-blah and try it. :P)
03:24:02 * Sgeo did that once. Forwarded chat between Sine and a channel on another network. Spammed the other channel into an active channel that happened to be named SGEO. Guess where Sgeo can't go.
03:24:10 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:24 -!- Sgeo(n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #esoteric-blah
03:24:12 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:24 <Sgeo> Hm
03:24:21 <ehird> I've killed the rheet-script since it got annoying.
03:24:44 <ehird> Here's how I did this, incidentally: [~/irc/irc.freenode.net/#esoteric-blah]$ tail -f out >../#esoteric/in
03:25:10 * Sgeo should probably be eating
03:25:30 <ehird> oerjan: Nope; in is magical.
03:25:39 <ehird> It sucks up anything you give it and immediately blanks out.
03:25:47 <ehird> It's basically like /dev/null but with side-effects.
03:26:44 -!- ehird has changed nick to YourMom.
03:27:10 <YourMom> 2009-10-29 02:27 <YourMom> <CTCP>ACTION concurs!<CTCP>
03:27:10 <mad> why is dram so complicated
03:27:18 <YourMom> Because I am so complicated.
03:27:18 <Sgeo> I'd say something to that, but it would probably be offensive
03:27:25 -!- YourMom has changed nick to ehird.
03:27:30 <Sgeo> Even though really I'm the only person who'd be offended.
03:27:31 <ehird> Sgeo: I postulate that I cannot be offended!
03:28:24 <Sgeo> I.. I can't even write a response, because it would be inappropriate
03:28:41 <ehird> YOU'RE AS SPEECHLESS AS YOUR MOTHER IN BED LAST NIGHT
03:29:08 <Sgeo> My mom's been dead since 2004.
03:29:47 <oerjan> hey, you never said sorry to _me_...
03:30:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, what's happened in your life? If I may ask
03:30:19 <ehird> Nobody cares about oerjan! Well FINE, sorry.
03:30:38 <ehird> Sheesh, emotions, you'd think someone died! Okay I'll shut up now
03:30:44 <oerjan> you may ask. i don't feel like answering, though.
03:31:45 <oerjan> it occurs to me that i _might_ be sending some mixed signals here
03:32:07 <oerjan> but then i am MAD, so...
03:32:27 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:32 <ehird> oerjan is such an idiot, going on about how he's mad in #esoteric? Isn't that right, guys?!
03:32:38 -!- mad has changed nick to madbrain.
03:32:41 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:32 <ehird> *#esoteric.
03:33:28 <oerjan> mutually assured destruction, that's me
03:33:35 * oerjan swats ehird again -----###
03:34:56 <ehird> I actually said that #esoteric-blah :-P
03:50:29 <ehird> Let's say you have some (s)ftp somewhere, but can't run your own programs on that server
03:50:41 <ehird> Mount it with sshfs or something, run ii on your home computer, and leave it on
03:50:59 <ehird> IRC bouncer with just internet-accessible storage and a left-on computer!
03:51:21 <ehird> Well. I'm not sure if file change notification works over SFTP...
03:51:25 -!- coppro has joined.
03:51:28 <ehird> But it's fun in theory!
03:51:32 <ehird> Oh, you weren't here.
03:51:40 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> coppro: also
03:51:40 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> Let's say you have some (s)ftp somewhere, but can't run
03:51:40 <ehird> your own programs on that server
03:51:40 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> Mount it with sshfs or something, run ii on your home c
03:51:40 <ehird> omputer, and leave it on
03:51:41 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> IRC bouncer with just internet-accessible storage and a
03:51:45 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 <ehird> Well. I'm not sure if file change notification works ov
03:51:49 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 -!- coppro(n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) has joined #esoteric
03:51:51 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 <ehird> But it's fun in theory!
03:52:48 <ehird> Wait, what do you mean by "wait, what?"?
03:53:18 <oerjan> <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 -!- coppro(n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) has joined #esoteric
03:53:28 <ehird> Did this not, in fact, happen?
03:53:45 <ehird> 19:51:21 <ehird> Well. I'm not sure if file change notification works over SFTP...
03:53:46 <ehird> 19:51:25 --- join: coppro (n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) joined #esoteric
03:53:46 <ehird> 19:51:28 <ehird> But it's fun in theory!
03:53:46 <ehird> It sure did, says clog.
03:53:48 <oerjan> yes, but (1) why did you echo it (2) are you this lagged?
03:53:55 <coppro> ehird: ah, I see. Neat
03:54:07 <ehird> I echoed it because I copied-and-pasted what I said to him, thinking he was here.
03:54:09 <oerjan> ok you are this lagged
03:54:47 <ehird> coppro: Of course, I don't think you can get file change notifications over SFTP, and doing "tail -f" will be hard...
03:56:15 <ehird> Still, it's cute. :)
03:56:44 <coppro> ehird: use an FTP fuse module :P
03:57:02 <ehird> Yes, but wouldn't "tail -f" on that consist of bombarding the FTP server? :-P
03:58:39 <Kalagar> Don't you mean File Allocation Table?
03:59:10 <ehird> Fat Allocation Table
03:59:48 <Kalagar> Oh god, recursive acronym...
04:00:16 <ehird> Who's Kalagar, anyway?
04:00:56 <Kalagar> Dunno, actually. I just found #IRP somewhere, but it's rather quiet there
04:01:27 <Sgeo> You... don't know who you are
04:01:36 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
04:03:39 <Kalagar> Now, now avoid endless repeats...
04:04:15 <ehird> Why? Why? Wh-- etc.
04:04:18 <oerjan> ehird has been having trouble with that lately
04:09:18 <fax> #IRP is looping
04:09:28 <Kalagar> Slowly, but looping indeed
04:09:38 <Sgeo> fax tried to break the loop
04:10:01 <ehird> Anyone want to give some context?
04:15:05 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:15:24 -!- ehiird has joined.
04:15:33 <ehiird> Yep, it does indeed work as a log
04:16:42 <fax> fungot, ^styple
04:16:44 <fungot> fax: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
04:16:44 <fungot> fax: we must do it to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!
04:17:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:17:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
04:19:20 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving").
04:19:49 <Oranjer> oh, wait, you were apparently trolling
04:20:03 <ehiird> your mom was trolling.
04:20:35 <Oranjer> your troll is my...mom? oh, wait
04:45:09 <ehiird> Whoa, http://w3.org/ was redesigned.
04:45:37 -!- Kalagar has quit.
04:52:04 <Oranjer> I do not like the new design
05:06:08 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:07:39 -!- Oranjer has joined.
05:08:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
05:09:21 -!- Azstal has joined.
05:15:52 <ehiird> I really like this IRC client.
05:22:06 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined.
05:23:38 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:23:47 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal.
05:29:48 <ehiird> I turned into a spear for a year.
05:30:09 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:36:17 <Asztal> Yes, the kind of table or desk that you sit at, not the one with rows and columns.
05:38:59 <Asztal> It's what my name means.
05:39:30 <Asztal> I was starting to learn Hungarian at the time, so I chose a word I'd just learnt :)
05:41:48 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur").
05:41:55 <ehiird> (Oranjer: you know Hungarian?)
05:42:01 <ehiird> (or did you mean, now you know the name)
05:43:20 <Asztal> ehiird: I know it to some extent, but for some unfathomable reason¹ I haven't had much excuse to use it
05:43:22 <ehiird> "It's blah. Know it now?"
05:43:22 <ehiird> Contrived, admittedly, but your confusion previously threw me off; if you knew Hungarian, surely you wouldn't be confused, as you'd see that Asztal means table.
05:43:38 <ehiird> And I can't think of any other options.
05:44:00 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
05:44:10 <ehiird> Asztal: Some unfathomable reason to the power of one?
05:44:29 <Oranjer> he cribbed "unfathomable reason" from wikipedia?
05:45:13 <Asztal> ehiird: Oh, forgot my footnote... ¹ Nobody else uses it. :(
05:45:31 <ehiird> Also, I'm pretty sure... Hungarians use it.
05:48:14 <ehiird> [Asztal sat silently, stunned at this revelation.]
05:49:14 <ehiird> I'm just going to assume (hope beyond hope) that that was a joke.
05:52:14 <ehiird> Please confirm it, Asztal, or I fear I wil not be able to sleep! :P
05:54:31 <ehiird> I wish I didn't have to, and I'm considering Uberman. But yes, I do in fact sleep. And I have to be up at like 9-10.
05:54:39 <Asztal> I can confirm that I know what a Hungarian is, though.
05:54:52 <ehiird> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ^_________________________^
05:54:53 <coppro> I would try Uberma if I didn't have a schedule to follow
05:55:11 <coppro> and that smilie is a bit too anime
05:55:28 <Asztal> I also have to be up around that time... but I can't sleep because I just made GHC panic on my code :(
05:55:32 <ehiird> coppro: try Tesla. It was invented as a more hardcore Uberman ... that fits in with schooling. http://tesser.org/sleep/teslapattern/
05:55:58 <ehiird> "Use only after a period of Uberman. Do not use while pregnant. No warranty. Your mileage will vary. Please don't sue us."
05:59:20 <ehiird> Anyway, I'm reluctant to try the hardcore polyphasic schedules (Uberman, Dymaxion, Tesla) because they haven't really been studied and I'm still developing... but then again, they must beat my fucked-up monophasic schedule.
05:59:50 <coppro> yeah, mine's pretty messed up
06:00:00 <coppro> I've been thinking of trying to switch to a diphasic schedule
06:00:15 <coppro> a couple hours in the morning, a couple in the evening
06:00:26 <ehiird> That is not known to work.
06:00:52 <ehiird> A long (like 5-6 hours) night sleep and a midday nap is "natural", though.
06:01:19 <ehiird> I wouldn't recommend what you said, though. I don't think it would work.
06:01:37 <coppro> based on my experiences, I think it would
06:01:44 <ehiird> For instance http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/2006/10/05/charts-of-types-of-polyphasic-schedules/ says "biphasic (note: feasibility under dispute, though "traditional biphasic", which involves one long sleep and one long "siesta" nap, is well known to work and be beneficial.)"
06:01:53 <ehiird> and matches your description (2 sleeps of 2-4 hours each)
06:02:10 <ehiird> Puredoxyk named and pioneered the Uberman schedule, so she's a credible source.
06:02:13 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
06:02:17 <ehiird> And that articcle may be circa 2006, but it's still worth considering.
06:02:28 <ehiird> I've certainly never heard of anyone doing such a schedule.
06:03:11 <coppro> I think it would be closer to your siesta nap schedule you described
06:03:27 <ehiird> Siestas have to be done at midday; it's what the circadian rhythm does.
06:03:36 <ehiird> It's why you're a little sleepy at midday.
06:03:44 <ehiird> (when doing normal monophasic)
06:03:56 <coppro> see, that's where mine would differ
06:04:09 <coppro> it would be about 2-7 am and then maybe 4-7 pm
06:04:20 <coppro> and then I'd see if I could shrink it
06:04:23 <ehiird> Yes, the problem is that you can't just make shit up and expect your body to be happy.
06:04:42 <coppro> ehiird: this is based on my experiences when I ran my monophasic schedule into the ground
06:04:52 <ehiird> With a really-hardcore, who-the-fuck-knows-how-it-works schedule like Uberman, your body adjusts because otherwise it's gonna die.
06:04:58 <ehiird> Otherwise? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Biological_clock_human.PNG
06:05:05 <ehiird> You are its bitch; design around it.
06:05:16 <ehiird> Note the total absensce of anything around noon. That's why siestas work.
06:05:25 <coppro> I ended up sleeping like that for about a day, and it felt great; not sure about the long-term effects
06:05:47 <ehiird> Basing your theory on a day? Yeah, not gonna work. Too many variables from the previous day.
06:06:10 <coppro> ehiird: it felt like it would work
06:06:24 <coppro> ehiird: you're right that I can't know for sure
06:06:26 * ehiird bashes head against a brick wall
06:06:37 <ehiird> You slept one way for one day while you were self-admittedly on a fucked up schedule.
06:06:56 <ehiird> Basing on the fact that it "felt like it would work", and going against the circadian rhythm, you think you should adopt it.
06:07:00 <ehiird> Come on, that's just stupid.
06:07:23 <coppro> ehiird: people are irrational creatures
06:07:29 <coppro> it's a fact of how our brains work
06:07:55 <ehiird> ...did you just defend your proposed adoption by admitting it's irrational?
06:08:10 <ehiird> Yes, at the lower levels we are rational, however if you're reasoning about it irrationality is your fault.
06:10:24 <coppro> ehiird: no. I'm trying to defend myself in a way that will cause you to realize that it's the sort of feeling that says
06:10:32 <coppro> "I'm right about this"
06:11:13 <ehiird> You are an idiot if you seriously believe in such feelings and ignore all rational argument. Delusional in the highest order.
06:11:48 <ehiird> Those "feelings" are worth nothing; believing them without any other input is ridiculous enough, believing them when rational counterargument is presented is simply insane.
06:15:13 <coppro> ehiird: I'd believe you in normal circumstances, but when it has to do with my own body, I trust my body to give me the feelings that allow me to make the best choice
06:15:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:15:49 <coppro> also, there is no rational counterargument
06:15:58 <ehiird> I knew there were people this delusional, but I didn't know that the kind of crowd #esoteric attracts included them.
06:16:07 <ehiird> how on earth is there no rational counterargument
06:16:23 <ehiird> because your body's TOTALLY-ZOMG-RIGHT feelings are the very mediator of the fabric of truth?
06:17:45 <pikhq> coppro: Science FTW.
06:17:51 <coppro> ehiird: your argument consists of two things: #1 is the circadian cycle. #2 is that there is no record of anyone doing this before. The first is already demonstrably mutable, but your assertion that the hardcore cycles work by forcing your body to adapt is mere speculation
06:18:05 <ehiird> SCIENCE? There is no rational counterargument, pikhq.
06:18:22 <ehiird> coppro: It's mere speculation backed up by the fact that, you know, otherwise they wouldn't have the same effects and would fail horribly
06:18:45 <coppro> The second is a more plausible counterargument, however, it is not a proof
06:18:54 <ehiird> And the effects experienced while adjustment, and the commentary on them by adjusters, universally reflects the body going "ok, this isn't gonna end any time soon; and i'm dying, so, better adjust"
06:18:55 <pikhq> A couple hours in the morning, a couple in the evening? I highly doubt that that'd work.
06:18:59 <coppro> ehiird: trust me. I'm very good at pretending that speculation is fact
06:19:05 <ehiird> coppro: Guess what? Burden of proof, bitch!
06:19:07 <pikhq> However, if you really think that it would work, I encourage you *to try it*.]
06:19:13 <ehiird> Yeah, my counteragrument isn't a PROOF.
06:19:22 <ehiird> But you don't even have ANY evidence.
06:19:24 <pikhq> Let us know how it works -- the results should be interesting regardless of whether or not it works.
06:19:26 <ehiird> -- and no, your "feeling" does not even count as speculattion.
06:19:52 <ehiird> Otherwise I'd be going around trying to disprove every god because its followers all have feelings that it's true, oh so strong feelings at that, stronger than whatever feeling you had.
06:20:00 <coppro> No, it wasn't just a hunch.
06:20:14 <ehiird> True, it was a MYSTIC INTERLINKED-CONSCIOUSNESS WAVELENGTH FEELING.
06:20:32 <coppro> ehiird, the boy who doesn't follow his feelings
06:20:56 <coppro> "Oh dear, I appear to be extremely ill to the stomach today. Oh well, up and to school!"
06:21:07 <ehiird> you just managed to accuse not ignoring rationality in the face of "feelings" as a bad, ridiculous thing
06:21:14 <ehiird> are you religious, coppro?
06:21:19 <ehiird> because you're certainly delusional enough.
06:22:08 <coppro> ehiird: would you like me to flame you back?
06:22:29 <ehiird> no, it would almost certainly have no connection to reality as clearly your thought methodology doesn't.
06:23:12 <coppro> ehiird: Given that was another flame, I will take it as an invitation to respond, particularly in light of the number of times you've flamed me when we've disagreed. Even when I was right.
06:23:49 <ehiird> congrats, you also managed to paint me as someone orchestrating a campaign of flames against your beautiful rightness
06:24:02 <coppro> ehiird: I never said I was right all the time.
06:24:16 <ehiird> you're crazy, and i mean this in a very literal, non-insulting way.
06:24:40 <ehiird> i do like how apparently i can't state facts about your thought methodology without them being flames, though.
06:24:54 <ehiird> crime scene, do not cross, all arguments invalid
06:26:49 <coppro> You are an immature child who pretends to be all-knowing but isn't, and you hide your ignorance by demeaning other people when you disagree with them. You hide behind your ability to ignore any issues that you don't understand, and use insults to cover this fact up. You use insults to cover up for your inability to understand and properly refute the argument presented against you. Then, when...
06:26:50 <coppro> ...you do find an area of knowledge in which you are more knowledgeable than the other party, you capitalize on it, further deriding your opponent for not knowing whatever random fact it is you happen to know.
06:28:40 <ehiird> like so many other things you have said in the past minutes, that would be an excellent statement if only it had any connection to reality; for instance, your mind has completely painted an illusory sense of all-knowing on me.
06:28:55 <ehiird> i would rebut it, but it is hard to rebut something which is based on premises that are simply false.
06:29:57 <ehiird> also, by deriding do you mean using in argument? because yeah. i do use facts i know to rebut other things. shocking. i'm such a horrible child. call the presses
06:30:27 <ehiird> i would also like to note that you're a hypocrite; noting that i am indeed not an adult -- i.e., I am a child -- is merely ad hominem
06:31:03 <ehiird> i am a minor and so are you. i'm also over the age of 13, so there's no boundary between us age-wise. so even your ad hominem fails horribly
06:32:25 <ehiird> in conclusion, you've often demonstrated that you have some kind of problem with me and view me as a sort of ad hominem generator that never makes any real arguments, and so this is nothing new. it is also completely imagined, and you would do well to try and remove from your mind this crazy delusional caricature of me.
06:32:51 <ehiird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4
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06:36:27 <ehiird> coppro: oh, and I'm happy to interpret this flame as an invitation to not bother to enage in rational argument with you any more, as i only do that with people who aren't completely crazy. you may feel free to enjoy the replacement of this stream with more often pickings from the previously more rarely sourced /dev/flame, or execute an /ignore command in an input booth at your nearest convenience.
06:36:48 <ehiird> wonder why ii crashedw
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06:57:46 <oklopol> singing diarrhea in the bulk of the sevenfold!
06:57:47 <oklopol> singing diarrhea in the bulk of the sevenfold!
06:57:47 <oklopol> singing diarrhea in the bulk of the sevenfold!
07:00:18 <oklopol> nowadays i sleep about 4 hours during the night, 4 hours during the day
07:00:33 <oklopol> what what? i didn't want your glio in my diarrhea i guess.
07:00:37 <ehiird> since you're inhuman you're not a datapoint
07:00:52 <oklopol> the glia are sacred for us meniculous lizards.
07:01:28 <oklopol> i was thinking i should do that too
07:01:37 <oklopol> but maybe i won't now that it's mainstream
07:03:06 <oklopol> i have this like total lecture
07:05:46 <oklopol> it's about these things that you know they eat something, and they crap something out, and then you know they are consistent in their crapping patterns, the clinical term for said crapping condition is function
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07:07:06 <oklopol> i've always liked the crapping analogy
07:07:42 <oklopol> this is a very crappy morning i guess
07:09:20 <oklopol> also why do you have two ehiird
07:09:48 <oklopol> i was too lazy to type i's, so i just wrote e and pressed tab a few times
07:10:08 <oklopol> e is pretty close to the tab so it's basically a free fall
07:10:50 <oklopol> i really need to go i think, this is getting too complicated ~>
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10:59:40 <ais523> so that you can cat all the files together and send it in an email and it's clear which is which
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11:00:33 <AnMaster> ais523, that would only make sense if every file had that
11:00:47 <AnMaster> just two out of around 20 or so
11:00:48 <ais523> oh, where I've seen that, every file /did/ have that
11:01:48 <AnMaster> ais523, plus catting them together would be a bit strange. Oh and it wouldn't be very useful since there are both server/main.c and client/main.c (only the former has such a comment at the end btw)
11:02:07 <AnMaster> and yeah it would be an insane way to distribute a program
11:02:25 <ais523> This is what's wrong with Python. And //-based comments.
11:02:34 <ais523> because you can't rely on the lines not to wrap
11:02:44 <ais523> nor the indentation to be preserved
11:02:50 <AnMaster> ais523, wrapping in the middle of a C string would cause issues too.
11:03:08 <ais523> that's what the "a" "b" syntax is for
11:03:12 <ais523> or backslash-newline, fwiw
11:03:30 <augur> interesting fact: american sign language has two mechanisms for indicating negation, one of which can actually span the whole length of the negated object
11:03:53 <AnMaster> btw wc -l claims a total of 138250 lines for all *.c and *.h
11:04:08 <AnMaster> so, yeah that way to distribute it would be rather awkward.
11:04:24 <ais523> yep, uuencoded gzip works better when it's about that long
11:04:42 <ais523> but some purists apparently insist that things like Usenet distributions are human-readable
11:06:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what about that yencode or whatever it was called
11:06:19 <AnMaster> pretty sure I seen it somewhere on usenet
11:06:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that's for sharing binaries, I think, rather than source
11:06:48 <ais523> and it's banned by most newsgroups other than the alt.binaries hierarchy
11:07:25 <AnMaster> ais523, was ages ago I last saw such a file, don't remember where
11:09:32 <fizzie> They call the encoding "yEnc", though I think the common tools were yencode/ydecode.
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11:11:37 * AnMaster ponders this (in a global include):
11:11:56 <AnMaster> so basically, DEBUG is pointless
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16:00:32 <AnMaster> olsner, as in "I actually ran across that in serious code"
16:01:30 <ais523> AnMaster: obviously, it only works when DEBUG is defined
16:02:16 <ais523> that would be funnier still if it defined NDEBUG too
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16:59:25 <oerjan> <ehiird> And I can't think of any other options.
17:00:14 <oerjan> it could be an extremely obscure word in hungarian, because hungarians always sit on the floor. yeah, that must be it.
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17:21:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: so the resemblance they noted on the forum was not a coincidence...
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17:46:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that name supposed to mean something?
17:46:32 <oerjan> the ishmael that has been in the martian theme for years?
17:46:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right. He was named that. Right
17:47:35 <oerjan> (the last line of today's comic is a reference to moby dick's ishmael, btw)
17:59:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never read that book
18:00:01 <oerjan> me neither. well, maybe a few sections.
18:01:46 <oerjan> but that line is the most famous one in the book. also the first.
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19:57:11 * AnMaster considers the possibilities of obfuscation using only rules for quotes and backslash in shell
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21:06:56 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law
21:20:17 <oklopol> AnMaster: what's computation in swedish
21:22:50 <oklopol> in the mathematical sense i guess
21:27:29 <Oranjer> what does the "be" at the beginning of beräkning add to the meaning?
21:28:14 <Oranjer> the process of turning räkna into beräkning
21:28:35 <Oranjer> what does the be- -(~a)ing add?
21:28:37 <AnMaster> it's like: what does the "co" at the start of "computation" mean
21:29:17 <Oranjer> well, com-pute-ate-tion, I think?
21:29:37 <AnMaster> (computation: co-mputation, mputation being the act of doing it without co)
21:30:27 <AnMaster> räk(a) = related to shrip (or is it prawn? I always mix them up in English)
21:31:01 <AnMaster> ning is making a noun of it in there
21:31:36 <Oranjer> also, AnMaster, it's shrimp and prawns
21:31:38 <oklopol> MizardX: oh, i thought beräkning would be more like counting.
21:31:53 <Oranjer> very well, I shall ask google
21:32:22 <Oranjer> <AnMaster> räk(a) = related to shrip (or is it prawn? I always mix them up in English)
21:32:33 <MizardX> räkning = counting (v); bill (n)
21:32:33 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it was a Swedish joke
21:32:46 <AnMaster> about räka == one of those "from sea but not fish thingies"
21:35:32 <MizardX> "räkna" = calculate/count (verb). "beräkna" = to do a calculation (verb). "beräkning" = act of doing a calculation (noun)
21:36:16 <MizardX> Still not sure what "be-" adds to the meaning...
21:37:12 <Oranjer> http://www.svenskaakademien.se/web/Ordlista.aspx
21:38:38 <Oranjer> but if someone who knew swedish read the "be-" words, they may be able to see a pattern? I dunno?
21:40:28 <AnMaster> Oranjer, why do you care so much?
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21:47:47 <Oranjer> well, apparently "befattning" means "post" and "fattning" means "temper"
21:48:41 <AnMaster> oh and "beskriva" == "describe", "skriva" == "write"
21:49:38 <Oranjer> I believe it must mean "this would be the object of this verb"
21:49:53 <Oranjer> "that which is calculated"
21:50:13 <MizardX> but the issue was "räkna" <-> "beräkna" (both verbs)
21:50:25 <Oranjer> beräkna -- "that which is calculated"
21:50:44 <AnMaster> while "räkna" would be "to count"
21:51:15 <Oranjer> also, I shall repost what MizardX wrote
21:51:53 <Oranjer> every time I have to copy the ä?
21:52:32 <Oranjer> I can't do that, we have yet to implement my modifying keyboard idea
21:57:50 <MizardX> Somehow "be-" strengthens the verb, giving it a wider or more intense meaning. räkna (count) -> beräkna (calculate); sitta (sit) -> besitta (posess, occupy)
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22:04:57 <Oranjer> heh, apparently "be-" in English also means intenstifier
22:05:06 <Oranjer> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/be-#English
22:09:20 <fungot> Oranjer: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale? you see, the mammon machine!
22:09:34 <Oranjer> wow, fungot, you got some ego on you
22:09:34 <fungot> Oranjer: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
22:10:51 <fungot> AnMaster: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!!
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22:11:21 <Oranjer> I thought it was like "I am biting my thumb, but not at you sir!"
22:12:25 <MizardX> Hmm... beadding "be-" to every verb.
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22:13:05 <Oranjer> also, would "would" becount?
22:14:21 <MizardX> I can't think of that as a verb...
22:14:41 <MizardX> I becan't bethink of that as a verb...
22:17:01 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_modal_verb#Would
22:17:15 <Oranjer> We apparently beclassify it as a modal verb
22:17:27 <Oranjer> I bethink we beneed more quasimodal verbs
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22:19:29 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you bethink?
22:19:29 <fungot> Oranjer: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y. but, i...i shall obtain the 2 figurines on this floor to fight the mother brain, yet!
22:19:59 <Oranjer> I bemust beadd two of those letters, a, b, and y. to what?
22:20:37 <Oranjer> I give up, fungot, and I shall also stop adding "be-" to my verbs unless I find it appropriate
22:20:49 <fungot> Oranjer: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle!
22:20:49 <fungot> Oranjer: but, we are far outnumbered!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!
22:26:58 <Oranjer> hey everyone, anyone there?
22:27:22 <Oranjer> hey, what do you think of combining Consensus Decision Making and Conway's Law?
22:28:02 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law
22:28:16 <AnMaster> Oranjer, too busy to read atm. One line summary of both of them
22:28:34 <Oranjer> Consensus decision-making is a group decision making process that not only seeks the agreement of most participants, but also the resolution or mitigation of minority objections.
22:28:54 <Oranjer> ...organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations.
22:29:07 <AnMaster> the former sounds like the classical swedish model. Less so these days
22:29:33 <Oranjer> well, Consensus Decision Making has each member having the power of veto
22:30:51 <AnMaster> still, traditionally it has been a lot of compromising to make sure no one is completely outraged
22:31:09 <Oranjer> you mean the Swedish Model?
22:31:20 <Oranjer> http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/consensus.jpg
22:31:45 <Oranjer> well, Compromises in Consensus Decision Making would (hopefully) be least likely outcome
22:31:47 <AnMaster> Oranjer, that looks scaled down. Hard to read
22:32:02 <Oranjer> it's not scaled down, though
22:33:20 <MizardX> It is small, but not unreadable.
22:33:32 <Oranjer> because it is at the maximum size, and that is the size it is presented as
22:33:36 <AnMaster> MizardX, try it on a high DPI screen
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22:34:03 <Oranjer> http://treegroup.info/topics/Consensus_Decison_Making-CH.pdf
22:34:11 <Oranjer> there's a much bigger image there!
22:34:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, the conway thing. Expand on that please
22:35:28 <Oranjer> basically, the quality and quantity of communication between any departments/members of a company/team will almost certainly be reflected in the system that that company/team makes
22:35:41 <Oranjer> as in, if a team is working on designing a car
22:36:31 <Oranjer> as in, if two team members have difficulty communicating, then the product they make will reflect such miscommunication
22:36:54 <AnMaster> Oranjer, mhm. Depends on how interconnected the parts they are working on are
22:37:18 <AnMaster> lets say, working on the fans in the car and the radio installation?
22:37:26 <Oranjer> the structure of a system/product will almost certainly reflect the structure of its creator's organization
22:37:39 <AnMaster> where the fans I mean the engine fan
22:38:11 <AnMaster> if they dislike each other it probably won't affect stuff
22:38:24 <AnMaster> while if it was two related systems, yeah, could lead to issues
22:38:39 <AnMaster> and there are no good managers
22:39:01 <Oranjer> well, that's precisely my point
22:39:12 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it seems rather obvious...
22:39:24 <AnMaster> I fail to see why it even has a specific name
22:39:28 <Oranjer> that if Conway's Law is a good indicator of a product's structure, then we should change the organization
22:39:38 <Oranjer> well, AnMaster, it's not obvious to all
22:39:55 <Oranjer> more importantly, of course it'll be obvious to you, once I explain it to you
22:40:18 <Oranjer> Holmes always found that if he explained how he got to a conclusion, everyone would say "oh, that's so obvious!"
22:40:27 <Oranjer> *Sherlock Holmes, of course
22:40:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it seems (to me) obvious that people who can communicate better, and are working on a project will have less problems than people who *can't*
22:40:44 <AnMaster> which seems to be all that law says
22:41:01 <Oranjer> not only people, but entire departments
22:41:16 <Oranjer> it's not only communication, though
22:41:54 <Oranjer> if you make two separate departments--air conditioning, and heating--you'd see such a distinction evident in the resulting product
22:42:27 * AnMaster wonders why ls -a ~ lists several hundred files that match /\.serverauth\.[0-9]+/
22:42:38 <AnMaster> some from recently, some from 2006
22:43:04 <AnMaster> ~/.serverauth.6481: X11 Xauthority data
22:43:15 <AnMaster> odd thing that they were left around
22:43:25 <AnMaster> rather than removed when I quit X
22:47:52 <MizardX> CDM would be useless without good communication. The worse the communication, the longer it takes to make a decision, and the lower the ratio of agreed vs unresolved issues. This could explain why the court cases takes so long...
22:51:02 <Oranjer> true, it would be largely useless without good communication
22:51:59 <Oranjer> although, I do not see the connection between "taking longer to make a decision" and "the lowering of the ration of agreed vs. unresolved issues"
22:52:45 <MizardX> bad communication = more people disagreeing, and less chance of those getting resolved
22:53:45 <Oranjer> well then, I guess it would be imperative to provide a structure that encourages good communication, for Consensus Decision Making to work
22:55:01 <MizardX> "a structure that encourages good communication" ?
22:55:52 <Oranjer> well, what's wrong with "we meet every Xday at Y o'clock"?
22:57:53 <MizardX> Maybe repeated meatings. One or two hours a day, until the issue is resolved. That way there wouldn't be so many people wanting to get out, and just agreeing with whatever is presented.
23:00:53 <MizardX> Coundn't that be how they do in the European Parlament (and other big decision making organizations)?
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00:17:15 <oerjan> <MizardX> Somehow "be-" strengthens the verb, giving it a wider or more intense meaning. räkna (count) -> beräkna (calculate); sitta (sit) -> besitta (posess, occupy)
00:17:33 <oerjan> mind you in those two cases they also turn the verb transitive afaict
00:18:00 <oerjan> be- is a prefix borrowed from german, i'm not sure it has a clear meaning there either
00:18:52 <oerjan> actually the transitivization may be a general part of it, but i don't feel it says everything
00:20:36 * oerjan is trying to think of an example of be- added to a verb that is already transitive. maybe there aren't any.
00:21:23 <MizardX> There are. I thought of one a few minutes ago, but can't remember it right now... :S
00:21:28 <oerjan> and also besitte is not the same as sette, another way of making sitte transitive.
00:22:45 <MizardX> röra (transitive) -> berära (transitive)
00:23:16 <oerjan> right, that's also in norwegian (røre/berøre)
00:23:16 <MizardX> though, in this case, the meaning is almost unchanged.
00:23:37 <oerjan> well røre is more like "move", berøre is "touch"
00:23:58 <oerjan> berøre is sort of less drastic :)
00:24:11 <MizardX> röra could mean both move and touch
00:24:15 <oerjan> which means in this case be- is _not_ an intensifier, hm
00:25:33 <MizardX> "röra" in the sense of "to touch" vs. "beröra" is slightly intensfied, in a sensual way.
00:25:41 <oerjan> i have somehow this general feeling of vagueness for all those german "unseparable" verb prefixes (be- ge- er- come to mind)
00:26:19 <oerjan> and it probably gets even worse for borrowing into our scandinavian languages
00:29:36 <MizardX> er- = 1) Inseparable verbal prefix that indicates a successful conclusion, leads to the wanted result. 2) Inseparable verbal prefix that indicates killing or dying.
00:32:10 <oerjan> Er ist ermördet geworden!
00:32:28 <oerjan> although the killing part comes from elsewhere, there
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01:13:09 <fizzie> One of my favourite words from the little bit of German I learned in school: the verb entgegengehen -- "to go toward something", approximately -- and especially the past perfect tense: entgegengegangen.
01:13:19 <fizzie> Handwritten, it looks especially juicy.
01:14:47 <Sgeo> If I can get a legal copy of Virtual PC, should I?
01:16:53 <fizzie> It's one of those funky separable German verbs -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language#Separable_prefixes -- so in the (for example first-person singular) present tense it's a reasonably boring "Ich gehe ... entgegen"; it's just the past perfect tense "Ich bin ... entgegengegangen" where it really shines.
01:19:35 <oerjan> never go against an ent, i say
01:20:10 <Asztal> Sgeo: Virtual PC 2007 doesn't cost anything, so that shouldn't be the problem; VirtualBox is better though.
01:20:10 <Sgeo> I think it's sad that the only place I've heard of Ents are Runescape
01:20:21 <Asztal> Assuming you're talking about Microsoft Virtual PC
01:23:47 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPT_3PEjnsE is inspiring me to power up my old computer
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01:24:22 <Sgeo> Collect the AWGate songs (that song is an AWGate song), collect some pictures, and find the oldest file on the computer
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02:19:54 <Sgeo> Oranjer, AWGate in AW used to play MIDIs all the time
02:20:22 <Sgeo> Most of those songs are now songs that, when I hear them, trigger what I guess is nostalgia
02:20:51 <Sgeo> My reaction when I hear the full version of one of those songs for the first time is rather extreme
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03:19:14 <Oranjer> I'm just lamenting the fact that apparently everyone in the world lacks the capacity to make a decent organizational chart
03:19:57 <Oranjer> do you know anyone who knows how?
03:21:16 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i have never done so :D
03:21:58 <oerjan> aren't organizational charts pure instruments of evil, anyhow.
03:22:21 <Oranjer> the ones you know of, maybe
03:22:48 <Oranjer> but that's probably because they were doing it the wrong way
03:22:50 <oerjan> i mostly know them from dilbert, of course ;D
03:23:25 <Oranjer> yes, it seems apparent that corporations royally suck at making such things
03:23:38 <Oranjer> but there *is* a good way of making them
03:24:06 <Oranjer> okay, tell me what's wrong with this:
03:24:07 <Oranjer> http://www.mc-med.eu/Chart.htm
03:26:25 <oerjan> i detect that it was made by evil muslims
03:28:36 <oerjan> it will be fine as soon as they admit the armenian genocide.
03:28:57 <oerjan> also, don't expect a serious answer from me on such matters.
03:30:14 * oerjan hopes Oranjer is not turkish or at least is not taking me seriously
03:42:06 <Oranjer> sorry, we were making oreo pudding pie stuff
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03:46:22 <oerjan> yeah just like you to leave me here going off the deep end
03:47:57 <oerjan> you seem to be taking me seriously. didn't i already warn you against that?
03:48:35 <Oranjer> I apologize, prime minister oerjan
03:48:45 <Oranjer> I will cease taking you seriously
03:49:21 <oerjan> except on mathematics. i sometimes behave rationally on that subject.
03:50:01 <Oranjer> oh, how you joke, sir! *laugh track*
03:50:42 <oerjan> i suppose that is an improvement
03:50:42 * Sgeo curses the very existance of "sfArk" files
03:51:04 * oerjan blesses the very fact he doesn't know that
03:51:07 <Sgeo> A compression method for SoundFont files
03:51:21 <Sgeo> Requires special software to open
03:51:23 <oerjan> you had to ruin my state of bliss!
03:51:57 <Oranjer> also, MizardX, are you there?
03:52:14 <Oranjer> sorry for leaving you hanging as well :(
03:53:16 <Oranjer> and it turns out that there must not exist a single place on the internet where one can find either: an explanation as to how the European Parliament does their decision-making; and a goddamn organizational chart for the EU
03:55:50 <Oranjer> http://www.hardtechgroup.eu/fileadmin/hg/img/en/org-chart_1.gif
03:56:12 <Oranjer> that chart is indecipherable to a ten year old
03:57:03 <Oranjer> http://www.dadalos-europe.org/int/Images_neu/gk4_sb02.gif
03:57:08 <Oranjer> that's the best I've found so far
03:58:25 <Oranjer> http://www.dadalos-europe.org/int/grundkurs4/eu-struktur_1.htm
03:58:44 <Oranjer> I think it's a fairly good overview of the structure
04:03:48 <Sgeo> YES YES OOOOOOOOOOH YES YES YES
04:03:49 <Warrigal> Oranjer: all you really need to know is the stuff at the very bottom!
04:04:09 <Sgeo> I GOT TIMIDITY WORKING WITH UNISON
04:04:26 <Sgeo> Oranjer, MIDIs play BEAUTIFULLY
04:05:13 <Sgeo> I used Timidity+Unison a long time ago to turn my midis into Ogg Vorbis files, and it's what I'm used to, so it's also a beautifully familiar sound
04:05:33 <Oranjer> Warrigal, what do you mean?
04:06:11 <Warrigal> Oranjer: the stuff at the bottom of http://www.hardtechgroup.eu/fileadmin/hg/img/en/org-chart_1.gif
04:06:26 <Oranjer> Innovation Fairness Harmony ?
04:07:12 <Oranjer> goshdarnit why does every corp-o in existence need a three word slogan? they sound so evil
04:07:43 <Sgeo> Secure. Contain. Protect.
04:08:02 <Sgeo> scp-wiki.wikidot.com
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04:09:02 <Oranjer> awesome, Sgeo, what's that?
04:09:33 <Sgeo> Oranjer, the SCP Foundation has files on the ... things that it contains
04:09:50 <Oranjer> they remind me of several things
04:10:24 <Oranjer> 1. the Warehouse from Indy, 2. the Warehouse from Warehouse-13, 3. The items in "The Lost Room"
04:15:16 <oerjan> Oranjer: does that include google's "Don't Be Evil"? :D
04:15:20 <Kalagar> I'm just going through the huge list of languages
04:15:29 <Oranjer> haha, oerjan, you and your paradoxes
04:15:53 <Kalagar> on esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
04:16:15 <Oranjer> oerjan, I mean three words that are not in the same sentence
04:16:40 <Oranjer> like, three separate concepts that, working together, are supposedly what the company works by/toward
04:16:54 <Oranjer> the more nicer they sound, the eviller the company
04:17:18 <Oranjer> "Peace. Truth. Prosperity."
04:18:54 <oerjan> Butterflies. Rainbows. Unicorns.
04:19:18 <oerjan> Part of a balanced diet.
04:19:33 <Oranjer> your comment makes more sense after mine
04:19:35 <oerjan> that could apply to both of those...
04:19:45 <Oranjer> "Cookies, Candy, You. Part of a balanced diet.:
04:20:59 <oerjan> http://shc.osu.edu/blog/food-is-an-important-part-of-a-balanced-diet/
04:22:28 <oerjan> well, i just pasted it for the title
04:22:45 <Oranjer> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39313
04:22:50 <Oranjer> I pasted that for the content
04:23:04 <Oranjer> I am sorely disappointed in its url
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04:24:18 <Kalagar> I think the TwoDucks language broke my brain
04:24:21 <oerjan> i guess it would take a ramanujan to find that url interesting
04:24:34 <Kalagar> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TwoDucks
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04:30:48 <Kalagar> Also, shakespeare is amazing and I want to try it
04:31:08 <Kalagar> http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/
04:32:04 <Oranjer> I think it's too full of extraneous info, though, but that's just me
04:32:37 <Kalagar> Well its definately not a minimalized language if that's what you are going for
04:34:16 <oerjan> To code, or not to code, that is the question.
04:34:32 <Oranjer> I want as minimalized as possible, allowing for readibility
04:34:52 <Oranjer> as in, if it's not readable, it's too minimalized
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05:04:50 <Sgeo> This place feels like a Geocities site in 3d
05:05:40 <Sgeo> Oranjer, a place in AW, yes
05:06:02 <oerjan> anyone who thinks this channel feels like a Geocities site in 3d clearly has ingested something bad
05:06:36 <Oranjer> that just gave me a horrible idea
05:06:49 <Oranjer> an irc client that displays the letters in three D
05:36:49 <Sgeo> This hotel looks... crappier than my nostalgia remembers :(
05:37:47 <Sgeo> Also, there's a picture here, that's supposed to come from Geocities :(
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15:29:52 <Asztal> time for my connection to time out again
15:30:47 <Asztal> actually it should have done so already, maybe it's stopped
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15:56:23 <AnMaster> ais523, seems new ubuntu version was released
15:57:24 <AnMaster> ais523, by the way, for how many days does the old release keep being supported?
15:57:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, ex4 seems to have corruption problems with large files
15:57:37 <ais523> also, 18 months for ordinary releases
15:57:51 <ais523> every third or fourth is a long-term release supported for longer
15:58:05 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't confirmed yet, and they're having trouble reproducing it
15:58:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I will wait with upgrade then
15:58:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so jaunty is supported for 18 months from when it was released or from when the next version is?
15:58:45 <ais523> I'm on ext3, anyway, so it shouldn't affect me
15:58:48 <ais523> AnMaster: from when it's released
16:02:11 <AnMaster> "Upstart jobs cannot be run in a chroot" hm
16:02:17 <AnMaster> possibly it might affect my 32-bit chroot
16:06:44 <AnMaster> ais523, hm about ext4... When I tried karmic beta in a VM some time ago I did get fs corruption on ext4. Severe such (making that VM completely unbootable, and fsck didn't manage to recover)
16:07:02 <AnMaster> tried again from clean, and it worked
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16:17:54 <AnMaster> yeargh. A thread on a mailing list, so deep that when using tree view some of the messages end up outside my screen
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16:18:09 <AnMaster> meh guess you missed that then
16:18:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> yeargh. A thread on a mailing list, so deep that when using tree view some of the messages end up outside my screen
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16:18:56 <AnMaster> I would guess it is around 50-60 levels deep
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16:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, argh it seems worse: http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14354
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16:31:30 <AnMaster> since I use ext4 on top of dm-crypt...
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17:57:34 <ais523> the distro upgrade's just replaced libc6 with libc-bin
17:57:36 <ais523> so I should be careful not to close any programs, in case they don't open again
18:00:48 <ais523> well, Perl still seems to work
18:02:26 <ais523> as does Emacs, but it took a while to load
18:02:33 <ais523> presumably because its dependencies weren't in disk cache
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18:29:34 <AnMaster> Oranjer, who are you saying "what" to?
18:30:07 <Oranjer> are you part of that, AnMaster?
18:30:13 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what exactly did the line "<Oranjer> what?" mean?
18:30:26 <AnMaster> was it some weird sort of sgeo-ish greeting?
18:30:44 <Oranjer> I guess it's better than the usual ":O"
18:31:22 <AnMaster> Oranjer, "hello" "hi" "good evening" and similar phrases are more usual. The latter one is probably not recommended over IRC due to time zones
18:31:35 * AnMaster notes it is 18:31 local time and already pitch dark outside
18:31:59 <AnMaster> Oranjer, "aww" in response to?
18:32:12 <Oranjer> teh darkness outside your house
18:32:24 <Oranjer> I like their music, but still. we all got limits
18:34:32 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> I like their music, but still. we all got limits <-- my turn to say "what‽"
18:35:05 <AnMaster> but then, I don't care about popular culture
18:35:19 <oerjan> it should be one of those numbered rules: if it's a phrase, there's a band named it
18:35:45 <Oranjer> you realize that if I realized I cared about popular culture, I would have to commit ritualized suicide?
18:35:46 <AnMaster> atm I'm listening to the 1700 century composer Kraus. Symphony in C Sharp Minor, movement 1
18:36:24 <Oranjer> The Darkness is contemporary glam metal, I would guess
18:36:28 <AnMaster> Kraus is sadly rather unknown. Better than Mozart IMO
18:36:49 <Oranjer> hairspray all over the place
18:36:50 <AnMaster> Oranjer, huh. Strange are the ways of modern music
18:37:04 <AnMaster> Oranjer, well. Anything after the jazz
18:37:10 <Oranjer> you realize glam metal is distinctly 80's
18:37:32 <AnMaster> since I have no clue what glam metal is
18:38:24 <Oranjer> well, you may not appreciate the last 40 years or so of western human culture, but that's no reason to have never have heard of glam metal
18:40:17 <AnMaster> only time I come in contact with music composed after 1950 or so is when I play some old snes games and such. And fantasy game music tends to be inspired by some mix of classical music (I here use the phrase "classical music" in the vulgar sense that includes the romantic period too, not just the classical period during which, for example, Mozart lived) and a tiny bit of techo
18:47:56 <AnMaster> He has quite a "good" music taste ;P
18:48:57 <Oranjer> *sigh* I hate that I have no program that can play oggs
18:49:27 <Oranjer> wantin' to standardize music under my nose
18:49:36 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah *.flac is better
18:50:13 <AnMaster> have yet to find anything else that is non-lossy and gives as good compression
18:51:13 <AnMaster> Oranjer, anyway you can encapsulate flac inside ogg (instead of vorbis like usually)
18:51:28 <Oranjer> I do not know what that means
18:51:48 <AnMaster> ogg is a container format. Usually it contains vorbis. But other formats are supported.
18:51:57 <AnMaster> like theora (spelling?) for video and such
18:52:08 <AnMaster> and flac, though usually flac is used stand-alone
18:53:23 <AnMaster> Oranjer, anyway ogg should be easy. vlc? mplayer? xine? /usr/bin/ogg123 (command line, but tiny compared to those other ones mentioned, since they are full featured media players)
18:53:33 <AnMaster> Oranjer, anyway. What linux distro?
18:53:42 <AnMaster> it should be trivial to install something able to handle it
18:54:10 <Oranjer> if I used linux, I would already have had an .ogg program
18:54:39 <AnMaster> Oranjer, unless possibly if it was some very very ancient version
18:54:46 <Oranjer> vlc just keeps surprising me
18:55:35 <AnMaster> in general vlc can play anything. And if it can't at least mplayer can. Or (only seen this once, with a rather unusual multi-part quicktime video from nasa...) xine if everything else fails
18:56:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer, in general xine is less likely to work than the other ones though
18:56:54 <AnMaster> mplayer is probably most likely to work, but yeah the UI is rather sucky
18:57:21 <Oranjer> I love vlc's keyboard controls
18:59:32 <Oranjer> they're the only ones that I've seen that let me use the keyboard to rewind/skip forward
18:59:34 <AnMaster> Gregor, wow http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg was awesome. And awesomely realistic piano. What soundfont was THAT?
18:59:43 <AnMaster> oh wait, was it a live recording of you playing?
18:59:58 <AnMaster> if so, awesomely professional sound recording
19:00:33 <AnMaster> Oranjer, pretty sure mplayer does that. With the arrow keys
19:00:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, would love score for http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op10.ogg
19:01:04 <Oranjer> I shall try it now, though
19:01:10 <AnMaster> Oranjer, you used any front end to mplayer?
19:01:33 * AnMaster meant raw mplayer with no buttons and such
19:02:59 <AnMaster> Oranjer, the midi files you might have more trouble with. Unless you have a good sound card with hardware midi and a good sound font
19:03:27 * AnMaster uses airfont340 personally. One of the best free ones I found that have a good representation of all instrument
19:03:44 * AnMaster loves his Soundblaster Live! 5.1
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19:12:05 <ais523> !befunge a"!dlorw ,olleH">:#,_@
19:12:17 <ais523> !befunge a"!dlorw ,olleH">:#._@
19:12:22 <ais523> what have I done wrong?
19:12:23 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction 'a' (0x61) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
19:12:23 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction 'a' (0x61) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
19:12:40 <ais523> !befunge98 a"!dlorw ,olleH">:#,_@
19:12:51 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:12:57 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"!dlorw ,olleH">:#,_@
19:13:00 <ais523> !befunge a"!dlrow ,olleH">:#._@
19:13:04 <ais523> !befunge a"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@
19:13:04 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction 'a' (0x61) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
19:13:08 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction 'a' (0x61) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
19:13:11 <AnMaster> the helow command was not as slow
19:13:12 <ais523> !befunge98 a"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@
19:13:18 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:13:36 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
19:13:40 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
19:13:51 <AnMaster> wait, asm is in esoteric list?
19:14:09 <AnMaster> MizardX, perl is in the right section :P
19:14:12 <EgoBot> 138 +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>>.++++++++++++++++++++.<.>+.+++.>-.<---.<----.--.++++++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>-. [260]
19:14:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect uptime on the system EgoBot is running on would output some rather high load avg
19:15:38 <ais523> !perl print $_ for 1..9;
19:15:58 <ais523> meh, Perl isn't an esolang
19:17:36 <ais523> basically, it's a variable used as the default
19:17:40 <ais523> if you don't specify one
19:17:52 <ais523> so I could just write it like this
19:17:59 <ais523> but that would be even more confusing
19:18:20 <ais523> (the for modifier uses $_ as the iterator, because you can't specify it)
19:18:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what about for in front?
19:19:05 <ais523> !perl for my $a (1..9) {print $a;}
19:19:15 <AnMaster> ais523, plus what about Deewiant's solution above
19:19:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that's entirely different, he's printing an array rather than looping
19:19:35 <ais523> just it comes to the same thing
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19:19:40 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah that was my point
19:19:58 <ais523> !perl $,='a'; $/='b'; print 1..9; print for 1..9;
19:20:04 <EgoBot> 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9123456789
19:20:10 <AnMaster> does ogg theora still use *.ogg?
19:20:13 <ais523> !perl $,='a'; $\='b'; print 1..9; print for 1..9;
19:20:20 <EgoBot> 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9b1b2b3b4b5b6b7b8b9b
19:20:21 <ais523> Deewiant: line separator on input
19:20:25 <ais523> I meant line separator on output
19:21:31 <ais523> AnMaster: $/ is line separator on input, $, is array element separator on output
19:21:47 <ais523> and they're short because why make them long? also, all-punctuation variables can't be defined by the user
19:21:52 <ais523> and $\ is line separator on output
19:22:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well ok. But why not use a single prefix like $.
19:22:38 <AnMaster> ais523, the overuse of hard to remember punctuation is one of the main issue I have with perl
19:23:57 <ais523> !perl use English; $OUTPUT_RECORD_SEPARATOR='b'; $OUTPUT_FIELD_SEPARATOR='a'; print 1..9; print for 1..9;
19:24:07 <EgoBot> 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9b1b2b3b4b5b6b7b8b9b
19:24:19 <ais523> personally I think the punctuation is easier, I had to go look the long names up
19:25:15 <Deewiant> If the long names were the default you'd've had to look the punctuation up
19:27:48 <ais523> no, because no Perlist wants to type lines that long
19:28:10 <ais523> you can do a lot on a line with Perl, you don't want to waste half of it typing long complicated variable names like that
19:30:33 <Deewiant> I'm just disagreeing with your statement that the punctuation is easier
19:30:52 <Deewiant> You're used to it; that doesn't make it intrinsically easier
19:30:59 <ais523> well, I'm giving a reason why people would memorise the short names not the long names
19:31:07 <ais523> they're both written next to each other in the documentation
19:31:26 <ais523> and writing use English; isn't an issue, I'm used to that sort of thing (and knew that was the directive to change off by heart)
19:31:40 <ais523> $_ being only two chars long is pretty important, though
19:31:52 <ais523> just like "it" is only two letters long
19:32:06 <AnMaster> <ais523> personally I think the punctuation is easier, I had to go look the long names up <-- that is just because you are used to it.
19:32:08 <Deewiant> It helps that pretty much every tutorial and piece of documentation probably uses the punctuation :-)
19:32:10 <AnMaster> but it makes it harder to learn
19:32:22 <ais523> Deewiant: and pretty much every program uses it too
19:32:33 <ais523> I don't think I've ever seen a program that uses the long version of $_ rather than $_
19:32:34 <Deewiant> That follows from the documentation
19:32:45 <Deewiant> And the fact that the long names are newer than the punctuation
19:32:49 <ais523> besides, the man page gives mnemonics for all the punctuation variables
19:33:29 -!- ehiird has joined.
19:33:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> they're both written next to each other in the documentation <-- so English is some official one rather than an Acme one?
19:34:49 <ehiird> gah this client is so awesome
19:35:27 <ehiird> 03:02:25 <ais523> This is what's wrong with Python. And //-based comments.
19:35:27 <ehiird> you are a bad person also wrong
19:36:02 <ais523> AnMaster: English is in the Perl distribution
19:36:08 <ehiird> 03:06:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what about that yencode or whatever it was called
19:36:08 <ehiird> 03:06:19 <AnMaster> pretty sure I seen it somewhere on usenet
19:36:08 <ehiird> http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/yenc.html
19:36:08 <ehiird> and it's for binaries; plus it only does one file
19:36:08 <ais523> together with various other modules
19:36:46 <AnMaster> <ehiird> 03:02:25 <ais523> This is what's wrong with Python. And //-based comments. <-- iirc they are # not //
19:37:04 <ais523> AnMaster: those are two separate complaints
19:37:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean, not related to python?
19:37:23 <ais523> i.e. Python has trouble with line-wrapping, and //-based comments also have trouble with line-wrapping
19:37:29 <ais523> it doesn't imply that //-based comments are in Python, though
19:37:47 <AnMaster> ais523, why does // have more issues than # in python or perl?
19:37:50 <ehiird> but it was out of context
19:38:02 <ais523> AnMaster: they don't, but they have an alternative, which is /* */
19:38:13 <ais523> also, I think the discussion at the time was about some lang which had /* */
19:38:26 <ais523> I mean, languages with // also have /* */, generally speaking
19:38:28 <ehiird> 03:00:33 <AnMaster> ais523, that would only make sense if every file had that
19:38:28 <ehiird> 03:00:39 <AnMaster> which is not the case
19:38:28 <ehiird> 03:00:47 <AnMaster> just two out of around 20 or so
19:38:28 <ehiird> 03:00:48 <ais523> oh, where I've seen that, every file /did/ have that
19:38:28 <ehiird> 03:01:48 <AnMaster> ais523, plus catting them together would be a bit strange. Oh and it wouldn't be very useful since there are both server/main.c and client/main.c (only the former has such a comment at the end btw)
19:38:30 <ehiird> 03:02:07 <AnMaster> and yeah it would be an insane way to distribute a program
19:38:32 <ehiird> 03:02:25 <ais523> This is what's wrong with Python. And //-based comments.
19:38:40 <ais523> whereas languages with # generally don't have #{ }
19:38:42 <ehiird> It seems totally out of context.
19:38:52 <ehiird> AnMaster: using the ii filesystem-based, <500 lines IRC client
19:38:56 <oklopol> ais523: but python does, """..."""
19:38:56 <ehiird> it's totally kick-ass!
19:39:07 <ehiird> oklopol: that is technically a string :-P
19:39:10 <oklopol> well i guess you knew that, and it's not as flexible
19:39:31 <ais523> ehiird: are you using cat, then?
19:39:35 <ais523> to actually communicate?
19:39:39 <oklopol> ehiird: well yes, but it's also a very official form of commenting
19:39:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, I thought doc strings were for help("module name goes here")? And was only possible in some special places. Like directly below a def foo(): line or such
19:39:48 <ehiird> and multitail to view the log as it goes
19:39:58 <ehiird> ais523: vim technically
19:40:02 <ehiird> so not quite as purist
19:40:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: possible everywhere, and you don't need to use them just for doc strings, for instance i've obviously never used those
19:40:32 <ais523> wow, I have a lot of windows open atm
19:40:34 <AnMaster> ehiird, I have a vi somewhere from the heirloom project thingy iirc
19:41:02 <ais523> distro upgrade, so I daren't shut them again
19:41:02 <ais523> ehiird: incidentally, I've been using Windows 7 on my office computer
19:41:02 <ais523> and the taskbar is really annoying me
19:41:04 <ais523> the method I have to use to switch to a window with the mouse depends on how many of them are open
19:41:11 <ehiird> ais523: I set vim up like this:
19:41:11 <ais523> which means I can't muscle-memorise it
19:41:11 <ehiird> map we :w >>irc.freenode.net/\#esoteric/in<cr>dg
19:41:11 <ehiird> imap /me <C-v><C-a>ACTION<C-v><C-a>^[OD
19:41:11 <ehiird> also, that is totally false
19:41:26 <AnMaster> everything from "<ais523> distro upgrade, so I daren't shut them again" to "<ehiird> also, that is totally false" arrived at once
19:41:28 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
19:41:36 <ais523> ehiird: what would you suggest I do, then?
19:41:56 <ais523> I'm happy to hear improvements, especially as I'm stuck with it
19:42:15 * AnMaster hopes this break something for ehiird
19:42:18 <ehiird> make it: map we :w >>irc.freenode.net/\#esoteric/in<cr>:%d
19:42:42 <ehiird> AnMaster: you're free to fuck off if you're going to say things with the explicit purpose of breaking my client, but no, at the moment I do not have it set up to handle unicode correctly
19:43:19 <AnMaster> ehiird, not breaking as such. Rather testing that it works. As a helpful service
19:43:40 <AnMaster> ehiird, since I'm likely to use unicode later. And then it might be more annoying if it breaks
19:43:46 <AnMaster> ehiird, btw, what OS are you on atm? OS X?
19:43:52 <ehiird> ugh, it should be: map we :w >>irc.freenode.net/\#esoteric/in<cr>:%d<cr>
19:44:04 <ehiird> i really fail at vim command history
19:44:13 <ais523> ehiird: that wasn't an attempt to break your client; I was wondering what would happen
19:44:16 <ehiird> AnMaster: os x. switching to linux soon.
19:44:19 <ais523> I assume that ii doesnt' really parse ctcps
19:44:23 <ehiird> ais523: I was talking to Anmaster
19:44:38 <ehiird> anyway, I can just use sed or something if I want pretty ACTIONs.
19:44:39 <ais523> so it's a respon-to-ctcp-version-by-hand style client?
19:45:02 <ehiird> can you all SHUT UP while i copy this command from the irc window, my terminal sucks at seelection when things move
19:45:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> ehiird: that wasn't an attempt to break your client; I was wondering what would happen <-- about?
19:45:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I /ctcp versioned him
19:46:11 <ehiird> ais523: anyway, no, it doesn't support ctcp
19:46:15 <ehiird> ah; didn't even notice
19:46:20 <ehiird> i don't have the server tab open
19:46:26 <ehiird> (tab; i.e. file opened in multitail :P)
19:46:34 <AnMaster> <ehiird> can you all SHUT UP while i copy this command from the irc window, my terminal sucks at seelection when things move <-- fail. Or something. Something fails at least.
19:46:36 <ais523> what is multitail, btw?
19:46:51 <ehiird> multitail is like tail -f but you can scroll and search and stuff and it handles split-screens of files
19:46:56 <AnMaster> ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitail
19:46:57 <ehiird> also it puts a little header at the bottom of each file
19:47:05 <AnMaster> ehiird, hey you are the one who tells him to google usually
19:47:16 * ais523 uses tail -F a lot nowadays
19:47:42 <ehiird> ais523: anyway, I could trivially script ctcp responses
19:47:54 <ais523> it's a GNUism, I think; it's like tail -f, except that if the file's deleted or renamed, then recreated, it follows the new one
19:47:55 <ehiird> here's the entire code of an annoying bot:
19:47:55 <ehiird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then
19:48:04 <ais523> so it's useful for following logfiles that rotate quickly, for instance
19:48:22 * AnMaster can't think of any that rotate more than once every few hours
19:48:23 <ehiird> forwarding a channel is just tail -f #chan/out >#chan/in
19:48:37 <AnMaster> ehiird, not sure that is a good idea XD
19:48:41 <ais523> AnMaster: TAEB's, which can rotate once every few minutes if I keep restarting it
19:48:49 <ehiird> AnMaster: I did it yesterday with #esoteric-blah
19:49:21 <AnMaster> so what was/is #esoteric-blah about?
19:49:26 <AnMaster> ehiird, and what about rate limiting?
19:49:32 <AnMaster> if a lot of people is talking in there
19:49:34 <ehiird> #esoteric-blah = spam and bots.
19:49:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:49:39 <ehiird> AnMaster: um, ii handles that, duh
19:49:43 <ehiird> being, you know, an irc client
19:49:55 <ehiird> kay, forwarding #esoteric-blahh
19:50:15 <AnMaster> ehiird, would work if better if you were in there
19:50:20 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:50 -!- AnMaster(n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster) has joined #esoteric-blah
19:50:30 <AnMaster> right. I went to #esoteric-blahh indeed
19:50:53 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:50 <AnMaster> <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
19:51:07 <AnMaster> ehiird, got any version replies to yourself from that?
19:51:12 <ehiird> AnMaster: say "rheet" or "rheeeeeeeeet" (or whatever) in #esoteric-blah
19:51:29 <AnMaster> (my client doesn't handle ctcp except as whole line)
19:51:37 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:51 <AnMaster> quux?
19:51:48 <ehiird> it has to be rheet-onic
19:51:52 * Sgeo is going to slap vanBasco's Karaoke Player
19:51:54 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:51 <AnMaster> why?
19:52:36 <AnMaster> ehiird, what does "rheet" in fact mean?
19:52:44 <AnMaster> google's define: wasn't helpful
19:52:53 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:52 <AnMaster> xyzzy
19:52:56 <ehiird> It means an infiniite plane of green.
19:53:07 <ehiird> Oh goddammit, just say /rhee+t/
19:53:31 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #esoteric-blah
19:53:36 <Sgeo> Anyone have any suggestions for good MIDI players?
19:53:44 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has left #esoteric-blah
19:53:44 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #esoteric-blah
19:53:47 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has left #esoteric-blah
19:53:47 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #esoteric-blah
19:53:48 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has left #esoteric-blah
19:53:49 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 -!- oklopol(n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #esoteric-blah
19:53:53 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:53 <AnMaster> :P
19:53:55 <ehiird> you know, oklopol is the one flooding here.
19:54:15 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:54 -!- Sgeo(n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #esoteric-blah
19:54:16 <oklopol> who's to say what's to say
19:54:18 <ehiird> AnMaster: if you don't say rheet I'll do something vaguely insulting
19:54:24 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:54 <Sgeo> rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
19:54:25 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:54 <ehiird> Ding!
19:54:39 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:54 <AnMaster> rhaat?
19:54:43 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:54 <oklopol> murheet
19:54:43 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:54 <ehiird> Ding!
19:54:44 <Sgeo> Technically, I didn't say "rheet"
19:54:56 <ehiird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then
19:55:05 <ehiird> Okay, so I could have omitted that /bin/sh line to floot less.
19:55:10 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, is that Finnish?
19:55:17 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes
19:55:22 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, what does it mean?
19:55:36 <ehiird> Dudes! Admire my totally kick-radding script that works without any scripting layer in my IRC client!
19:55:41 <ehiird> It's totally kick-radding.
19:55:42 -!- Oranjer has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:55:53 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:55 <oklopol> err
19:55:55 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:55 <oklopol> like
19:55:58 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:55 <oklopol> woes
19:56:00 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
19:56:03 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <AnMaster> kick raiding? Should tell lament that you are stealing those kicks then.
19:56:04 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU vanBasco!
19:56:04 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <oklopol> sorrowz
19:56:08 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <oklopol> sad stuff
19:56:11 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <oklopol> flood flood
19:56:12 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <oklopol> flood
19:56:12 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <oklopol> flood
19:56:24 <ehiird> ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT BABIES
19:56:29 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, "woes"? Google's define indicates it is "WOES (91.3 MHz) is a non-commercial, educational radio station that broadcasts from Ovid-Elsie High School. It is known as "The Polka Palace.""
19:56:35 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:56 <AnMaster> which is probably not what you meant
19:56:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe you should look at dictionaries instead of Google define
19:57:06 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: next time try a translator and not a google
19:57:11 <ehiird> 14:34:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, the conway thing. Expand on that please
19:57:11 <ehiird> A three-group team will produce a three-pass compiler.
19:57:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't have anyone handy atm. I'm on a train, using the wlan there
19:57:23 <AnMaster> laptop is all I have handy atm.
19:57:26 <oklopol> it seems there's a redunday in finns on the channel
19:57:54 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:57 <AnMaster> google define *usually* works
19:58:15 <Deewiant> But when it doesn't I'd check something else before complaining
19:58:16 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:58 <AnMaster> <CTCP>ACTION wonders how an ctcp action translates here<CTCP>
19:58:31 <ehiird> No CTCP support. I'll probably sed-handle ACTIONs, though.
19:58:37 <ehiird> Since it's quite the ugly.
19:59:10 <ehiird> ^A displays as an inverted . on this terminal, fwiw.
19:59:19 <ehiird> Or rather, with multitail, at least.
19:59:40 <AnMaster> ehiird, you know, for clients that implements CTCP properly (unlike mine for example) that will look like you said it.
19:59:46 <ehiird> Incidentally, my me mapping is so awesome
19:59:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
19:59:59 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 18:59 <AnMaster> so from <CTCP> and onwards everything is inverted ehiird?
20:00:06 <ehiird> If I type /me, it literally becomes ^AACTION^A, with my cursor just before the second ^A.
20:00:12 <ehiird> So I see it expand right in front of me.
20:00:23 <ehiird> AnMaster: No, just the .
20:01:26 * ehiird tries sic. You know, just to see if he can be even more hardcorely minimalist.
20:01:37 <ehiird> (Of course, if I really was that I would swear off IRC.)
20:01:56 <ehiird> http://tools.suckless.org/sic
20:01:57 <AnMaster> ehiird, telnet + ping script like zzo?
20:02:13 <ehiird> Of course, sic doesn't have the fun UNIXness or filesystem scriptability.
20:02:25 <ehiird> That's just in ii (irc it).
20:02:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
20:02:44 <ehiird> Which is, like, DOUBLE the size!! zomg
20:03:30 <AnMaster> ehiird, hm. Does sic really require :m in front of every message? I would hate that
20:04:06 <ehiird> Anyway, that's not really bad; I send message here with Ctrl+c w e and it's fine.
20:04:19 <ehiird> (Ctrl+c to exit insert mode.)
20:04:44 <ehiird> Admittedly it's more annoying at the start.
20:04:44 <ehiird> 68 if(msg[0] != ':') {
20:04:44 <ehiird> 69 privmsg(channel, msg);
20:04:44 <AnMaster> ehiird, typing normal lines is the most common action on irc
20:04:46 <ehiird> 76 else if(strncmp(msg + 1, "m ", 2) == 0 && (p = strchr(msg + 3, ' '))) {
20:04:48 <ehiird> 78 privmsg(msg + 3, p);
20:04:50 <AnMaster> more common that server commands
20:05:11 <AnMaster> therefore to me it makes sense that by default it should be "send to current channel"
20:05:12 <ehiird> So? The goal is simplicity. More work makes you think about what you say, anyway. but this is irrelevant; it has it.
20:06:06 <ehiird> Reading a few lines of C is easier than sending that line and you know it
20:06:07 <AnMaster> ehiird, this is what university does to you :/
20:06:31 <AnMaster> totally mentally exhausted after the day
20:06:56 <ehiird> Apparently your exhaustion begins at precisely the moment you're rebutted.
20:07:26 <AnMaster> ehiird, no. I haven't had to read any other code today here. Well one line of perl. But that was all
20:07:43 <ehiird> 14:40:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it seems (to me) obvious that people who can communicate better, and are working on a project will have less problems than people who *can't*
20:07:43 <ehiird> 14:40:44 <AnMaster> which seems to be all that law says
20:07:59 <ehiird> from those you can't derive "a three-group team will produce a three-pass compiler"
20:08:16 <ehiird> AnMaster: dude, they were 4 lines each, more or less.
20:08:22 <ehiird> of trivially short code
20:09:48 <ehiird> 18:20:22 <Sgeo> Most of those songs are now songs that, when I hear them, trigger what I guess is nostalgia
20:09:48 <ehiird> do you realise you're going to die in nostalgia?
20:10:29 <ehiird> well, not for certain. you could die saying ? too :P
20:11:15 <ehiird> 19:46:51 * oerjan eats some bread
20:11:15 <ehiird> 19:46:56 <Oranjer> sorry
20:11:15 <ehiird> sorry, poor bread, that you were murdered :(
20:13:08 <ehiird> 20:03:48 <Sgeo> YES YES OOOOOOOOOOH YES YES YES
20:13:08 <ehiird> 20:04:09 <Sgeo> I GOT TIMIDITY WORKING WITH UNISON
20:13:08 <ehiird> 20:04:26 <Sgeo> Oranjer, MIDIs play BEAUTIFULLY
20:13:08 <ehiird> 20:05:13 <Sgeo> I used Timidity+Unison a long time ago to turn my midis into Ogg Vorbis files, and it's what I'm used to, so it's also a beautifully familiar sound
20:13:08 <ehiird> Have you considered looking for a support group for your orgasmic nostalgia?
20:13:47 <ehiird> I was only half-joking.
20:14:18 <Sgeo> ...it was supposed to be a half "lol"
20:14:47 <ehiird> argh, noow I can't stop seeing lc as a half-lol
20:14:52 <ehiird> C IS FOREVER DAMAGED IN MY MIND
20:15:06 <ehiird> fun fact, also applies about the language.
20:15:22 <AnMaster> err. unison? isn't it a file sync app
20:15:44 <Sgeo> AnMaster, http://www.personalcopy.com/sfarkfonts1.htm
20:15:48 <ehiird> No two people have EVER named two things Unison.
20:15:50 <Sgeo> It's a soundfont
20:16:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, at least in this font c is more than half an o
20:16:10 <ehiird> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/ and http://www.panic.com/unison/? SAME THING? The file syncer is OS X only and works via Usenet! Also it plays MIDI I guess?
20:16:10 * AnMaster looks for a true half circle in unicode
20:16:22 <ehiird> o isn't always a circle.
20:16:36 <Sgeo> c was the closest I could get to half-o
20:16:48 <Sgeo> At least, without looking through Unicode stuff
20:17:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo, btw, that sound font seems rather small? what is the uncompressed *.sf2 file?
20:17:25 <Sgeo> How big is it? Hold on
20:18:06 <AnMaster> ~/soundfonts $ du -sh a340.sf2
20:18:11 <AnMaster> that is the one I normally use
20:18:45 <Sgeo> I don't remember why I went with Unison
20:19:22 <AnMaster> Sgeo, you have a sb live card so you can load them? :)
20:19:30 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I'm using TiMidity++
20:20:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo, timidity always seemed buggy to me. segfaulting a lot. And even when it worked, it was rather jerky sound
20:20:26 <Sgeo> I also used freepats as a backup (to Unison). Apparently, the quality of this song is entirely dependent on freepats :/
20:21:32 <Sgeo> AnMaster, that's the only way I can explain the discrepency between what I hear now and what this .ogg file is sounding like
20:21:54 <Sgeo> No, no it's not
20:22:28 <ehiird> AnMaster: so how awesome is sweden
20:22:37 <ehiird> Sgeo: you realise that's what someone placeb...ing would say?
20:23:05 <Sgeo> ehiird, I'm playing the two side-by-side
20:23:18 <AnMaster> <ehiird> AnMaster: so how awesome is sweden <-- in what sense?
20:23:22 <ehiird> 10:37:04 <AnMaster> Oranjer, well. Anything after the jazz
20:23:22 <ehiird> And jazz is whippersnapper enough to call it the jazz! The rock music.
20:23:24 <Sgeo> Either TiMidity++'s malfunctioning, or this song doesn't work with just Unison
20:23:27 <ehiird> AnMaster: in the awesome sense
20:23:44 <AnMaster> ehiird, varies between different areas I would say
20:24:24 <AnMaster> ehiird, atm the day time is rather unawsome for example. Sunset around 16:00 iirc. And it gets worse later during the winter
20:24:34 <AnMaster> on the other hand, in the summer we have very long days
20:24:35 <ehiird> sunset is like 16:00 here too.
20:24:46 <ehiird> doesn't sweden get those awesome tons-of-light, tons-of-night cycles at one point?
20:24:58 <AnMaster> ehiird, north parts of Sweden yeah
20:25:00 <ehiird> maybe only in the horrible-weather subarctic kinda parts
20:25:04 <AnMaster> but that is past the polar circle
20:25:27 <ehiird> so basically sweden is bipolar in both day length and ... polarness
20:25:30 <AnMaster> which is about one night's travel by train from here
20:25:49 <AnMaster> (sleeping on the way up is the only sane way to travel that distance
20:26:04 <ehiird> Apart from crystal meth!
20:26:52 <AnMaster> ehiird, actually not very sane because you wake up a lot due to acceleration and deacceleration around the stations on the way
20:27:41 <ehiird> well I guess I know Sweden is awesome, since it doesn't actually exist, it's just Finland
20:27:52 <AnMaster> ehiird, I'm also told (mostly by US people) that the girls in Sweden are supposed to be awesome. I have no idea why they think this
20:28:11 <ais523> they're probably just thinking of ABBA
20:28:15 <ehiird> Probably because the girls in the US are terrible?
20:28:20 <ais523> which they remember is vaguely Scandinavian
20:28:27 <AnMaster> ehiird, but why nothing about UK girls then and such?
20:28:38 <ehiird> vaguely scandinavian? they are actually swedish you know
20:28:43 <ehiird> AnMaster: because ours are worse.
20:28:43 <AnMaster> ais523, ABBA *is* Swedish. Not just vaguely Scandinavian
20:29:18 <AnMaster> and what about Norwegian and Danish girls then? And so on
20:29:27 <ehiird> Yes, on average. Also, I have no idea.
20:30:04 <ehiird> "Unidentified viral outbreak in Western Ukraine. State of Emergency Declared."
20:30:04 <ehiird> First thought: It's not lupus.
20:30:04 <ehiird> Second thought: Has Madagascar closed their port?
20:30:04 <ehiird> My brain is infected too, it seems.
20:30:23 <ehiird> *Have Madagascar or *closed its, pick one.
20:30:31 <ais523> ehiird: seriously? link?
20:30:44 <ehiird> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/9zcrn/unidentified_viral_outbreak_in_western_ukraine/; http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/10/29/202374
20:32:35 <ais523> the world is in trouble
20:32:43 <ais523> unless it turns out to be really bad at spreading, or something
20:32:46 <AnMaster> ehiird, the second one pops up a HTTP auth dialogue for "ZIK News Mangement Sysytem"[sic]
20:32:50 <ais523> ehiird: I mean, more than usual
20:32:51 <ehiird> ais523: better than H1N1
20:33:01 <ais523> ehiird: for all we know, it might /be/ H1N1
20:33:04 <ehiird> it's killing faster than H1N1
20:33:05 <ais523> they haven't identified it yet
20:33:12 <ehiird> and H1N1 is pretty crap
20:33:15 <ehiird> it's pussier than regular flu
20:33:17 <ais523> and viruses are annoyingly capable of mutating
20:33:18 <ehiird> so that doesn't say much
20:33:38 <ehiird> ais523: a mutated H1N1 is a safe bet.
20:35:02 <ais523> wow, I just realised what's wrong with Epiphany
20:35:06 <ais523> it currently has no toolbars at all
20:35:13 <Sgeo> Is ADrive considered reputable?
20:35:14 <AnMaster> http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/10/29/202374 is rather badly written it seems?
20:35:16 <ehiird> You didn't notice that?
20:35:21 <ais523> and the options to turn them on are both marked as selected, and grayed out
20:35:23 <ehiird> AnMaster: yeah fuck those ukranians
20:35:27 <ais523> ehiird: I didn't notice it at first
20:35:29 <ehiird> why aren't they perfect at english
20:35:35 <ais523> it was only when I tried to hover a link to see where it went...
20:35:35 <AnMaster> ehiird, when even *I* notice it...
20:35:46 <ehiird> It's perfectly reasonable, it's just not very idiomatic.
20:36:01 <ais523> actually, I'm not even sure it's Epiphany
20:36:07 <ais523> it just calls itself "Web Browser" in the about dialog
20:36:07 <AnMaster> ehiird, well yes. Just some parts rather awkward
20:36:15 <ais523> it has the same icon, though
20:36:18 <AnMaster> [“In all, 262 patients are treated in hospitals, of these 16 in serious condition. !* children have died in rural areas and 70 in Ternopil,” he says.]
20:36:19 <ais523> which is why I thought it was Epiphany
20:36:21 <Sgeo> Most useless midi name ever: stheme5a
20:36:23 <AnMaster> that wasn't completely readable to me
20:36:43 <Sgeo> I have no clue what the name of the actual song is
20:36:52 <ehiird> For instance, they may have held down shift while typing 18 for some reason.
20:36:54 <Sgeo> Although I remember being told in 2003 that it was from a game
20:37:10 <ehiird> (Before you say "they should double-check", getting news out takes precedence.)
20:37:30 <ehiird> Sgeo: http://www.adrive.com/? Looks like shit and will almost certainly be out of business soon enough.
20:38:23 <ehiird> One, because offering 50 GiB of free storage is not profitable; two, because the website is cheesy and ugly; three, because these businesses are a dime a dozen, which is saying something -- every internet business already is a dime a dozen.
20:38:34 <ehiird> I certainly wouldn't trust them with anything not encrypted, either.
20:39:57 <AnMaster> ehiird, I wouldn't use such online storage anyway.
20:39:58 <ais523> there's a "hide toolbars" option that hides all the toolbars
20:40:02 * Sgeo is mostly using it to transfer files between his computers
20:40:03 <ais523> rather than, you know, just hiding them by hand
20:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, options like that, to hide toolbars and menubars and such are always annoying
20:40:31 <AnMaster> especially when they are hard to get back
20:40:34 <ais523> yes, it feels rather anti-Gnome to me
20:40:34 <ehiird> AnMaster: online storage can be useful.
20:40:42 <ehiird> Sgeo: Why do you ask questions and then ignore the answers?
20:40:45 <ehiird> It's really annoying and you do it a lot.
20:40:51 <AnMaster> ehiird, sure. I didn't say that. I just said *I* wouldn't use it
20:40:59 <Sgeo> Are there other things I can use? Any companies more reputable?
20:41:12 <ehiird> filebin.ca is good for quick transfers.
20:41:28 <AnMaster> between computers? What about using nfs or samba or such
20:41:35 <Sgeo> But then I'd have to zip the files
20:41:41 <ehiird> AnMaster: obviously not networked, or at least a not set up network
20:41:50 <ehiird> Sgeo: are you retarded? it's taken you longer to whine
20:42:00 <Sgeo> Actually, it is networked
20:42:04 <ehiird> you could use a less obvious form of going "well, I didn't want an answer other than the one I expected..."
20:42:10 <AnMaster> ehiird, I have to point out a flaw here. If you can reach the online storage you obviously have network connection
20:42:15 <Sgeo> So maybe I'll play with samba
20:42:22 <AnMaster> then you can at the very least use something like sshfs
20:42:38 <Sgeo> Although I remember trying to get it working, and I couldn't
20:42:46 <ehiird> AnMaster: Note "networked".
20:42:53 <ehiird> It's not so easy to start a server.
20:42:58 <Warrigal> I tried to use Samba once. It didn't happen.
20:43:47 <ehiird> Start server on port 80, look at it from another computer, oops, that didn't work, because your router isn't forwarding that port.
20:43:52 <AnMaster> ehiird, just require one computer able to do it. Then you wan use a VPN to it for the rest
20:44:09 <ehiird> Go to router config page, remember password, try a few more, open it, find the config item, add, click, click, click, TCP, port number, port number, find your local IP, insert it, OK, logout.
20:44:19 <AnMaster> ehiird, password is in keychain
20:44:37 <AnMaster> also local ip is easy to remember
20:44:56 <AnMaster> 192.168.0.71 for the laptop when using ethernet
20:45:06 <ais523> Epiphany seems to be Webkit in 9.10, rather than Gecko
20:45:09 <ehiird> AnMaster: missing the point since, uh, I don't think he ever *started*, per se...
20:45:29 <AnMaster> ehiird, and I need quite a lot fewer clicks on my router
20:45:35 <Warrigal> My local IP is 207.72.191.67, which makes me happy.
20:45:38 <AnMaster> plus it has a telnet interface
20:46:14 <AnMaster> ehiird, anyway. Once you have VPN or at least ssh set up you can do everything through that.
20:46:38 <Warrigal> Perhaps I should install Linux.
20:46:56 * Warrigal ponders the viability of iTunes under Linux.
20:47:21 <ehiird> Why would anyone want to use iTunes?
20:47:34 <ehiird> It's competent and usable on OS X and that's it. Not Windows, definitely. Rhythmbox is better.
20:48:07 <Warrigal> Then I'll check out Rhythmbox.
20:48:19 <Warrigal> See, ehiird, you're useful sometimes!
20:48:35 <ehiird> Rhythmbox comes with Ubuntu, btw.
20:48:45 <AnMaster> rythmbox is ok-ish. I still prefer for i in *.flac; mplayer "$i"; done
20:49:18 <ehiird> AnMaster: I have none, apart from noting that nobody uses it.
20:49:23 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I thought you were ignoring ehird?
20:49:25 <ehiird> AnMaster: That does not handle playlists, shuffling, skipping forward and backwards, searching artists, titles and albums with one field, iPod syncing, ...
20:49:43 <ehiird> *forwards, if it's backwards, I guess. (*blah, I guess. is my new catchphrase.)
20:49:45 <Warrigal> AnMaster: I'm ignoring *!n=ehird@* and *!i=ehird@*. ehird is currently neither of those.
20:49:49 <AnMaster> ehiird, ah playlists. I was working on a script for shuffling between playlists
20:49:55 <ehiird> ehird isn't even online.
20:50:02 <ehiird> if you want to be pedantic
20:50:04 <Warrigal> Well, actually, I'm ignoring *!*ehird@*.
20:50:15 <ehiird> AnMaster: CONGRATULATIONS! You're writing a music player.
20:50:22 <AnMaster> ehiird, that is a simple shell script
20:50:26 <ehiird> (a) accept that you do in fact see a use of them,
20:50:26 <ehiird> (b) ignore this wheel-inventing?
20:50:43 <ehiird> No, no, I'm joking, b of course...
20:51:34 <AnMaster> ehiird, neither, since I realised I had no use for it. I tried it early on and well... I tend to prefer to listen to some specific song based on my current mood and such
20:52:09 <ehiird> Then why are you writing one?
20:52:13 <AnMaster> like "I think I want to listen to that slow Largo in Händel's Xerces about now"
20:52:47 <AnMaster> ehiird, well as I said, I'm not working on it any more
20:52:58 <AnMaster> that is why I used past tense when I mentioned it
20:53:35 <Warrigal> ehiird, I suddenly wonder what you would think of a prediction market where the statements are mathematical sentences and closed automatically.
20:54:06 <AnMaster> for example. Atm I feel like listening to Gregor's opus 7 (or was it 6? will have to listen to check which one I'm thinking of)
20:54:14 <ehiird> I'm pretty sure Warrigal's thoughts literally have no context at all.
20:54:51 <AnMaster> Warrigal, expand on this concept?
20:55:20 <Warrigal> ehiird: I have no idea what the context of my last thought was.
20:55:28 <Warrigal> AnMaster: well, do you know what a prediction market is?
20:55:35 <ehiird> Warrigal apparently thinks throwaway votes can accurately reflect the truth of a statement.
20:55:42 <ehiird> (Prediction markets prove this to be true for some things.)
20:55:55 <ehiird> (Mathematical statements that require picking apart and analyzing are not one of these things.)
20:56:06 <ehiird> (Regardless of what the free-market-can-do-anything idiots say...)
20:56:17 <AnMaster> Warrigal, as in: I just checked on wikipedia and it sounded familiar
20:56:21 <Warrigal> It would be kind of neat at the very least.
20:56:41 <ehiird> It'd just reflect what Wikipedia says like 90% of the time.
20:56:54 <Warrigal> Remind me what Wikipedia says is the probability that P = NP.
20:57:32 <ehiird> It probably says "most mathematicians[citation needed][goat needed][i need to go pee] say[what does this word mean?] that P probably isn't NP[disambiguate][poop flower de-luxe]".
20:57:58 <ehiird> P=NP may be slightly more to the yes side than is reasonable because people might want it to be true.
20:58:09 <ehiird> Or rather, people want it to be true; voters might.
20:59:10 <ehiird> Friendly Bayesian AI markets, sucking the cock of Eliezer Yudkowsky!
20:59:17 <AnMaster> to me P = NP seems unlikely. I'm no expert on this sort of stuff however
21:00:14 <Warrigal> I actually have no good reason to believe it would involve any Bayesian updating. I just meant that it will acknowledge the existence of Bayes' law.
21:02:15 <ehiird> So uh, guess who else acknowledges the existence of Bayes' law?
21:05:11 <ehiird> A statistical anomaly.
21:05:35 <Warrigal> The fact that my mom is in Sine, or the precise context-free-ness of that statement?
21:05:37 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> (Was that context-free?) <-- what line?
21:05:48 <ehiird> THAT LINE WAS CONTEXT FREE
21:05:59 <ehiird> No, it's the actual sine wave itself.
21:06:15 <AnMaster> ehiird, there could be further usages than those two afaik
21:06:38 <ehiird> What is "than"? The word?
21:06:45 <Warrigal> She's one of the digits of the sine of sqrt(163).
21:06:47 <ehiird> There could be further usages.
21:14:28 -!- adam_d has joined.
21:18:59 -!- ais523_ has joined.
21:23:09 <Oranjer> There could be further usages.
21:26:00 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:27:00 <AnMaster> http://news.google.com/news?edchanged=1&ned=sv_se has a broken translation heh
21:27:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:27:12 <AnMaster> the "all news" thing in the sidebar
21:27:26 <AnMaster> is translated to "Vilket innehåll som helst"
21:27:29 <ehiird> gah vt100 terminals are a pile of shit
21:28:07 <AnMaster> which means "any contents at all"
21:28:34 <ehiird> is it unidiomatic? because that's an ... alright translation
21:28:56 <ehiird> also fuck you, my google is in svedish now
21:29:24 <ehiird> Swedish sounds so ridiculous
21:29:31 <ehiird> do you guys actually call it that
21:29:44 <AnMaster> ehiird, well sv:post == en:mail
21:29:50 <AnMaster> and you have post office in English
21:29:53 <ehiird> but only the rfc guy saays e-mail
21:30:07 <ehiird> yes, you post(v.) an item of mail(n.)
21:30:07 <AnMaster> ehiird, what does non-rfc people say?
21:30:17 <ehiird> also, *what do non-rfc people say?
21:30:27 <AnMaster> ehiird, hm. epost and e-post are both common I would say
21:30:27 <Deewiant> ehiird: I do believe that when said instead of typed, those are fully equivalent
21:30:32 <ehiird> (it's just the RFC editor that prefers it that way. they're anal, in case you didn't know)
21:30:46 <ehiird> Deewiant: what, en:post and en:mail?
21:31:17 <ehiird> Yes, they're equivalent; but e-mail looks stupid and is archaic
21:31:27 <ehiird> Ain't beein' the 70s no' mo'
21:31:36 <Deewiant> If you say so; it's what I've always used
21:31:49 <Deewiant> But then, I capitalize Internet.
21:31:57 <AnMaster> ehiird, what was those three ''' on the next line?
21:32:16 <ehiird> Nothing, AnMaster. Nothing.
21:32:53 <AnMaster> ehiird, I was considering at first that it might have been trying to close unclosed ones. but 1) they didn't match up 2) ' and ' are the same, so that just wouldn't work
21:33:01 <ehiird> primary fever in the liver (pronounce leever)
21:33:14 <AnMaster> ehiird, heh I read that as "pounce"
21:33:18 <ehiird> something something diva
21:33:25 <ehiird> um, read the digest of reader?
21:33:42 <ehiird> also digest for reader i guess
21:34:10 <AnMaster> ehiird, happy wrong date set mailman day
21:34:18 <AnMaster> (yes I actually got one of them today)
21:34:42 <ehiird> You mean Clock-Skewed Mailman Mailing List Reminders Day.
21:35:30 <ehiird> We should make continually longer and longer-named Mailman-related holidays until calendars are as wide as magazines
21:35:37 <ehiird> AND THEN WE WILL HAVE VICTORY
21:35:42 <ehiird> MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
21:36:03 <AnMaster> ehiird, err I was just about to go for the "??? PROFIT" one there. But you did something else before I could :(
21:36:27 <ehiird> Stupid terminal word-breaking; I was wondering how you prof something.
21:36:43 <ehiird> (It's even mnore annoying when it breaks just before a space, so you get a space on the next line. Like it just did with this line in vim; argh!)
21:37:14 <ehiird> *more. If only I had not sinned^Wtypoed, it would not have happened.
21:37:32 <AnMaster> ehiird, it broke in the middle of the word?
21:37:39 <ehiird> No, just before a space.
21:38:10 <ehiird> "It's even more annoying". Please use your brain on that, and the preceding line.
21:39:13 <AnMaster> ehiird, where did it break in the line "<AnMaster> ehiird, err I was just about to go for the "??? PROFIT" one there. But you did something else before I could :("
21:39:44 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> ehiird, it broke in the middle of the word?" "<ehiird> No, just before a space." <-- made me believe that was not the case first
21:39:54 <ehiird> I was talking about my line.
21:40:01 <ehiird> I thought you were too.
21:41:17 <AnMaster> ehiird, can't you just fix it in vim?
21:41:38 <ehiird> Wouldn't fix the multitail or any other program.
21:41:39 * AnMaster is pretty sure it can be done in emacs, since some modes do.
21:41:48 <ehiird> And I'm way too lazy to hack around idiotic architectures.
21:42:06 <AnMaster> like erc. I get word wrapping there.
21:43:34 <ehiird> I wish I could code some hardware. You can get rid of a need for a program that way, after all.
21:43:42 <ehiird> *code up some hardware
21:45:42 * AnMaster notes there is a course about the basics of VHDL during this spring
21:46:09 <ehiird> I'd have to buy VHDL chips, a display, blah blah blah. And that's rather overkill if you want a computer. And very overkill if you want an at least semi-fast one... (I need to make that Linux distro, but have no desire to deal with the hardware oddities of the iMac. Also, it'd be incredibly cognitively dissonant.)
21:49:42 <AnMaster> ehiird, what about that computer made with wires wound around things
21:49:52 <AnMaster> probably been mentioned in here
21:50:15 <ehiird> I'd have to buy the materials, a display, blah blah blah. And that's rather overkblaaaaaaaaah
21:50:33 <AnMaster> ehiird, at least that imac is far from as bad as that performa fizzie keeps mentioning
21:51:06 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit).
21:51:20 <ehiird> Heck, the EFI system will be bigger than my distro.
21:51:40 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:51:45 <ehiird> It's not that big, you know.
21:51:52 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:52:18 <AnMaster> ehiird, does Ω and Ω look the same to you?
21:52:37 <ehiird> Why yes, inverted ... looks like inverted ..!
21:52:53 <ais523> ugh, Konversation seems to have deleted all my logs since June
21:52:58 <ehiird> I think I can see é though.
21:53:03 <ehiird> Nope. Damn you, multitail!
21:53:04 <ais523> meh, most of the channels I care about are logged publically anyway
21:53:20 <ehiird> HA! With ii, you read the logs directly!
21:53:41 <ais523> Konversation moved its logs from flatfiles to a weird database thingy last version
21:53:58 <ehiird> TECHNOLOGICAL PROGRESS -------->
21:54:06 <ais523> anyway, the upgrade worked, I think
21:54:09 <ehiird> Alas, if only IRC had diagonal arrow support.
21:54:22 <ais523> the bootup seems to take longer
21:54:30 <ais523> but the shutdown is very quick
21:54:35 <ais523> it shuts down before I can count to 6 at a normla rate
21:54:39 <ehiird> 9.10 sped up boot massively.
21:54:46 <ais523> in fact, I'm not entirely sure if it's shutting down or crashing
21:55:01 <ais523> ehiird: I know, but upstart seems to dislike me
21:55:10 <ais523> I'm not even sure if it's using kdm or gdm as the login manager
21:55:41 <ehiird> Does it do the KMS magic thing?
21:55:52 <ais523> basically, I get "Starting up..."
21:56:01 <ais523> then, an Ubuntu logo on the centre of the screen for ages
21:56:12 <AnMaster> but that probably signifies that the process is shaky or something
21:56:14 <ais523> and then, the login screen
21:56:15 <ehiird> ais523: Do you get the fancy animated Ubuntu logo with the brownish/purplish background and a fancy wavy progress meter thing?
21:56:25 <ais523> ehiird: eventually, although in black and white
21:56:28 <ehiird> If you get anything else but that and "starting up...", it isn't working.
21:56:31 <ais523> there's quite a lot of time spent before that comes up, though
21:56:35 <AnMaster> ehiird, I haven't updated due to some reported issues with ext4 in the new version
21:56:35 <ais523> in the middle of the screen
21:56:38 <ehiird> It isn't working, then.
21:56:48 <ehiird> AnMaster: so don't use ext4?
21:56:53 <ais523> but I can't find anything particularly useful in the syslog
21:57:18 <ais523> what drivers for what?
21:57:19 <AnMaster> ehiird, I'm waiting for that bug to close or if it doesn't before jaunty support expires I'm going xfs
21:57:35 <ehiird> AnMaster: tar cdfgjkdfg / fuckext.tar; gpg --AWESOME fuckext.tar; cp fuckext.tar /thecloudomg
21:57:38 <AnMaster> or maybe even ext3. But those would all be equally painful
21:58:08 <AnMaster> ehiird, and that would take ages on my connection
21:58:09 <ehiird> XFS but with way faster metadata YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. AND NO DATA LOSS CROM CRASHES. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
21:58:18 <ehiird> JFS fuck yeah. Storing files 'n shit.
21:58:35 <AnMaster> ehiird, it doesn't journal that
21:59:07 <AnMaster> ehiird, that = data (non-metadata)
21:59:22 <ehiird> Who cares? JFS recovers data just as well as ext.
21:59:24 <AnMaster> ext3 can do it, but the ordered mode is somewhere in between
21:59:48 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
22:00:09 <ehiird> JFS: XFS but with much faster metadata operationnos, no data loss from crashes, good and fast post-crash recovery, and low CPU usage. Totally kick-flippin'.
22:00:31 <ehiird> AnMaster: haha fail (ordered mode = only journal metadata)
22:00:59 <ehiird> "It doesn't journal non-metadata, so I'll use ext3." "ext3 doesn't either." "Oh."
22:01:09 <ehiird> Well, I mean, it does if you use journal.
22:01:30 <ehiird> A more accurate conversation: "It doesn't journal non-metaadata, so I'll use ext3." "Well, okay." "In ordered mode." "Um."
22:01:36 <AnMaster> ehiird, pretty sure jfs is like writeback
22:02:06 * Sgeo goes to try BleachBit
22:02:16 <ehiird> "JFS uses this level of journaling, but ensures that any "garbage" due to unwritten data is zeroed out on reboot". But really, it's pretty irrelevant. JFS has an excellent data recovery level and is very fast. How often does your machine crash while writing important files?
22:02:19 <ais523> ugh, the fonts seem messed up
22:02:29 <ais523> I think they've done something negative to font rendering
22:02:29 <ehiird> How many of these writes are ruined by some seconds being lost?
22:02:38 <ais523> ehiird: you're good with fonts, what settings do you recommend?
22:02:42 <ehiird> ais523: it is unchanged afaik.
22:02:52 <ehiird> ais523: What do you want? It depends on your goals.
22:02:53 <ais523> maybe they changed the font itself, then
22:03:02 <ehiird> ais523: You don't really care about typography, and you have very limited screen space. Correct?
22:03:11 <ais523> yes, and not all that limited
22:03:17 <AnMaster> ehiird, idea: battery backed external RAID 5 case to bring with the laptop
22:03:34 <ehiird> ais523: Then full hinting + subpixel. No autohinting.
22:03:58 <ais523> that's what I just changed the settings to
22:04:08 <ehiird> ais523: If you want typographically accurate, butter-smooth fonts, slight hinting + greyscale. If you can deal with a bit of colour fringing and get the closest to OS X, slight hinting + subpixel.
22:04:21 <ehiird> The fringing is pretty bad though. (The last one is the default.)
22:04:28 <ais523> it's Firefox in particular that's messing up with fonts
22:04:29 <AnMaster> <ais523> well, it's 1280x800 <-- not very limited. Same as a previous laptop of mine had. Worked well.
22:04:46 <ehiird> I couldn't work with it at all.
22:04:47 <AnMaster> ehiird, not really. it worked fine
22:04:58 <ehiird> Consider that 1680x1050 is tolerable for me.
22:05:10 <AnMaster> ehiird, 1400x1050 is of course the optimal resolution to me
22:05:22 <AnMaster> higher but same aspect ratio would be ok
22:05:38 <ehiird> Less common resolution, so less support, and less pixels with no benefit to 1680x1050?
22:06:13 <ehiird> 1680x1050 hasn't really a disadvantage vs 1400x1050; comfortable vertical resolution, and you can put stuff side-by-side easily.
22:06:19 <ehiird> ais523: Aha, got it. Ah, got it.
22:06:22 <ais523> DejaVu Sans is defaulting to "ExtraLight" in Firefox rather than "Book"
22:06:25 <ehiird> Thou doth repeat yourself.
22:06:37 <ais523> and there seems to be no way to change it
22:07:25 <ehiird> Use Arora or something. I'd say Epiphany, but the Webkit version is seriously fucked up.
22:10:45 <ais523> it seems to be working fine for me
22:10:47 <ehiird> I wonder whether my oh-so-wonderful distro should be i686 or x86_64.
22:11:34 <ehiird> ais523: Can't override the base font size, it's always your GNOME preference (it should be 16px, pretty much; everything is too small this way, especially Google). It tries to download files to /; if you set another directory, it's set back as soon as you open Preferences again.
22:12:08 <ehiird> The progress-bar-in-address-field looks ugly and you still need the status bar anyway, because the hover-over-to-show-URL thing you get without it is fugly.
22:12:21 <ais523> I was wondering why 16px in Firefox = 9px everywhere else
22:13:03 <ehiird> Remember us arguing about this and you defended it? Presumably you like your document font size but don't want the web to have tiny fonts... Dilemma time :P
22:13:43 <ehiird> Anyway, all those things I mentioned are regressions from the older Gecko version.
22:13:45 <ais523> ehiird: I think 9px should be the same in both places
22:14:00 <ehiird> You mean you think 16px should be the same, presumably?
22:14:06 <Sgeo> Well, Creatures Wiki is now using Monaco :/
22:14:18 <ehiird> Sgeo: oh shit it's fugly
22:14:24 <ehiird> they're moving now, surely
22:14:36 <ais523> aha, set Firefox to 9px and it looks better now
22:15:08 <ais523> I mean, the height of a 9px font - in pixels - is different in Firefox to what it is elsewhere
22:15:18 <ais523> nothing to do with context
22:15:21 <ais523> it's using different units, somehow
22:15:39 <ehiird> Firefox ignores dpi settings.
22:15:47 <ehiird> Check GNOME font settings.
22:15:54 <ehiird> If not, Firefox says fuck you and doesn't care about your display.
22:16:00 <ehiird> Good luck finding the about:config incantation.
22:16:17 <ehiird> Hmm. Try a hand-stand.
22:16:19 <ais523> anyway, 12px Firefox units seems to be 9px Gnome units
22:16:25 <ais523> so now I have the font the same in the two of them
22:16:26 <ehiird> It won't solve your problem, but you get to do a hand-stand.
22:16:31 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:18:38 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:18:55 <Sgeo> (Was reading an Uncyclopedia article and they had a screenshot of some Copernic thingy)
22:19:12 <Sgeo> I have search-software-related nostalgia now
22:19:54 <ehiird> Seriously, Sgeo, you have problems. People are not that nostalgic.
22:20:55 * Sgeo isn't that nostalgic about this, actually
22:21:09 <ehiird> Hmm... I need x86_64 if I want to support machines with more than 2 GiB of RAM without the PAE hack thing.
22:26:04 <AnMaster> Huh I have two weird fonts here ehiird. according to a font selector
22:26:34 <ehiird> Are both outline or is one pixel?
22:26:47 <AnMaster> ehiird, the adobe one seems more blocky
22:27:10 <ehiird> If you pirated those, they'll be the Helvetica from Linotype and the Helvetica from Adobe (included with the Creative Suite and stuff).
22:27:22 <ehiird> Make a screenshot of text in both and I'll give a judgement.
22:27:53 -!- nooga has joined.
22:28:12 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:28:22 <nooga> !bf_textgen czesc idioto
22:28:30 <nooga> !bf_txtgen czesc idioto
22:28:38 <AnMaster> ehiird, pretty sure I didn't. Unless it was from a mac
22:29:01 <EgoBot> 108 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.>+.<++.>-------.<--.<-.>++++++.-----.+++++.++++++.>+.<.>>-. [528]
22:30:24 <AnMaster> ehiird, as for 12 px. I can only find these in the konq font selection dialogue
22:30:41 <ehiird> Then I may be unable to tell.
22:31:20 <ehiird> I guess I should go for x86_64 for >2 GiB RAM without horrible hacks, but what about ze old hardwarez.
22:31:52 <AnMaster> ehiird, http://omploader.org/vMm5wYg
22:32:33 <ehiird> Adobe Helvetica is the X11 bitmap Helvetica font that everyone has.
22:32:46 <ehiird> Linotype Helvetica is, you know, an outline Helvetica.
22:32:53 <ehiird> Helvetica Neue is Helvetica Neue. From a Mac, probably.
22:33:04 <AnMaster> ehiird, yeah, it looks horrible however in konq. space between letters is all wrong
22:33:12 <AnMaster> ehiird, yes I know what the third one is
22:33:26 <AnMaster> ehiird, "linotype" "looks horrible however in konq. space between letters is all wrong"
22:33:34 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 21:32 <ehiird> Linotype Helvetica is, you know, an outline Helvetica.
22:33:34 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 21:32 <ehiird> Helvetica Neue is Helvetica Neue. From a Mac, probably
22:33:34 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 21:33 <AnMaster> ehiird, yeah, it looks horrible however in konq. spa
22:33:50 <AnMaster> ehiird, see my clarification ^
22:34:04 <ehiird> hmm... x86_64 has the disadvantage of breaking 16-bit binaries :P
22:34:15 <ehiird> AnMaster: You seemed like you were implying I could have figured it out myself.
22:34:30 <ais523> make it portable to either, including in the same session
22:35:10 <ais523> AnMaster: 32- vs 64- bit
22:35:26 <ehiird> See, it doesn't make sense with Helvetica, so you don't need to ask.
22:35:30 <ehiird> yay magical communication
22:35:31 <ais523> 64-bit Helvetica > 32-bit Helvetica!
22:36:59 * AnMaster wonders how long before there is a 64-bit unicode
22:37:19 <ais523> there isn't even 32-bit, yet
22:37:20 <ehiird> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/668
22:37:25 <ais523> Unicode goes up to 0x10ffff
22:37:26 <ehiird> augur would like that one. maybe.
22:37:34 <ais523> which isn't even a whole number of bits
22:37:49 <ais523> it's somewhere between 20 and 21
22:37:59 <ais523> (also, some of them are used as surrogates and so don't count)
22:38:12 <AnMaster> ehiird, sad, but the letter spacing is all correct with Ariel
22:38:23 <ehiird> Helvetica Neue should be better-hinted.
22:38:33 <ehiird> Linotype Helvetica is of course not hinted because Macs don't hint.
22:38:42 <ehiird> Or at least not hinted well.
22:38:44 <AnMaster> ehiird, helvetica neue looks even worse. Just look at the \ line in the N in that screenshot
22:39:16 <AnMaster> ehiird, and helvetica neue is from a mac
22:39:23 <AnMaster> the linotype helvetica I don't know
22:39:35 <ehiird> 1. designers and typographers use this shit, and they need it to look right
22:39:35 <ehiird> 2. at 100 ppi, who cares?
22:39:51 <ehiird> Linux can't only because freetype really sucks. OS X font rendering is pretty crisp.
22:41:40 <ehiird> "I'd just not feel right if my keyboard was worth more than my computer." [on paying for more than $200 for a keyboard, on a keyboard forum no less]
22:41:51 <ehiird> in fact, not even more; just paying >= $200
22:42:02 <ehiird> I wonder who's going to tell him that most people's computers cost more than $200...
22:42:17 <ais523> why would someone spend $200 on a keyboard, but only get a really cheap computer?
22:42:27 <ehiird> They wouldn't, in this case.
22:42:32 <ehiird> Presumably it's more a really old computer.
22:42:49 <ehiird> ais523: Anyway, e.g. a writer doesn't really care.
22:43:04 <ehiird> If it can run Word 97 they're probably fine, but it's important they can type comfortably and quickly.
22:43:10 <ais523> anyway, I just installed bootchart
22:43:15 <ais523> so I'm going to reboot to see what it displays
22:43:17 <ehiird> (At least, most writers, I'd say.)
22:43:28 <ehiird> "bootchart - 90% of boot time"
22:43:36 <ais523> I know it'll slow it down
22:43:42 <ais523> I'll disable/uninstall it when I'm done
22:43:48 <ehiird> "A project I just did in the last 24 hours to come up with a translator using Wikipedia as a datasource. Let me know what you think."
22:43:52 <ais523> besides, I don't think it can profile itself
22:44:00 <ehiird> "It doesn't seem to work. But other than that, it looks fantastic." *g*
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22:46:38 <sierinjs> how big really is brainfuck's data block? -- 1000, or 1024?
22:47:16 <ehiird> One of the implementations had a different limit, iirc. (in the original distribution)
22:47:29 <ehiird> sierinjs: 30,000 if you want something canonical; unlimited if you want something TC.
22:47:49 <olsner> 30000? such an uneven number :/
22:48:10 <ehiird> Your mom is so uneven.
22:48:19 <nooga> i wan osx fonts on linux ;f
22:48:38 <olsner> ehiird: since when is this about your mom?
22:48:49 <ehiird> Since it stopped being about your mom in the last line, I guess.
22:49:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:49:52 <ehiird> I really need the server file open so I can see people quit.
22:50:23 <olsner> you really don't need to, but you may want to
22:51:02 <ehiird> <innocent-bystander> I really need to go pee
22:51:02 <ehiird> <olsner> TECHNICALLY FALSE. You could go without peeing, but you may want to to avoid death!
22:56:38 <ais523> it seems to take 53 seconds to reach the bit where it's supposed to reach almost instantly
22:56:45 <ais523> although 20 of those were a fsck I canceled
22:57:00 <ehiird> that will change things; since upstart does parallel things
22:58:17 <ais523> it was slow before the autofsck
22:59:51 * ais523 tune2fses to set the mount count to 28
22:59:56 <ais523> (it normally checks every 30)
23:00:07 <ehiird> set it to 100000000000000000000000
23:00:18 <ais523> I don't like messing around as root
23:01:06 <ehiird> ais523: because ext sux0rzz!13981276345687
23:01:22 <ais523> Deewiant: because 30 would force a check
23:01:24 <ais523> and I want to avoid one
23:01:26 <ais523> but have it recheck soon
23:02:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:02:15 <Deewiant> Oh, he's setting the count, not the check interval
23:06:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:06:59 <ehiird> HI AIS523 DO YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH SOME HOUSEHOLD CLEANERS
23:08:13 <ais523> ehiird: I don't think so
23:08:49 <ehiird> http://ohthehugemanatee.net/word-o-matic/649/
23:08:49 <ehiird> languages that need to be made (enable js)
23:09:02 <ehiird> Well. Um. Look at this penny. Good as new!
23:11:25 <AnMaster> argh where is oerjan when you need him
23:12:38 <ais523> ehiird (and anyone else who's interested): http://imgur.com/kp2KH.png is what my boot process looks like
23:13:05 <ehiird> Ooh, that gives me the idea for an animated bootchart thing.
23:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, does it usually take that long?
23:13:41 <ais523> depends on what you mean by "usually"
23:13:42 <ehiird> 9.10 takes like 20 seconds for most people.
23:13:47 <ais523> the fact that Karmic is slower is a bug
23:13:49 <ehiird> ais523's hardware is just fucked up
23:13:54 <AnMaster> ais523, "with/without bootchart"
23:13:58 <ehiird> it is not a bug, it has been optimised
23:14:03 <ehiird> it is faster for almost everyone
23:14:25 <ehiird> your configuration is an edge-case, therefore
23:14:26 <ais523> bootchart hardly made a difference to the speed
23:14:42 <ehiird> "Winbind? What are you, gay?"
23:14:56 <AnMaster> ehiird, I just find it rather unlikely that he actually use it
23:16:09 <AnMaster> on jaunty disabling some services I didn't use helped a lot. From maybe 40 seconds to around 25 or so
23:16:34 <AnMaster> ehiird, eh? "some services I didn't uses"?
23:16:37 <ehiird> My distro will boot in something like 5 seconds with a hard disk, 3 on an SSD~
23:16:44 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 22:14 <AnMaster> ehiird, I just find it rather unlikely that he actua
23:16:44 <ehiird> 2009-10-30 22:15 <ehiird> *uses
23:16:56 <ais523> the shutdown speed is amazingly fast, btw
23:17:35 <AnMaster> ais523, potential issue. Some of those things begin outside the left edge of the chart?
23:17:52 <Deewiant> My printk times reach about 3.5 seconds, from then on the time is dominated by me typing passwords
23:18:01 <ais523> AnMaster: that's showing they have no pre-dependencies
23:18:32 <ehiird> Hmm, really? Then I should be able to do faster.
23:18:32 <Deewiant> (Not sure which question you were asking)
23:18:35 <AnMaster> ais523, err I meant near the bottom async/1 and such
23:18:44 <ehiird> Let's say 2 seconds on a disk, <1 second on an SSD.
23:18:49 <Deewiant> And this is on a plain 7200RPM disk
23:19:10 <ehiird> After all, add up the static binaries (less startup overhead), really minimalist system, very simple init system, minimal X11...
23:19:11 <ais523> apparently it's a known bug on laptops with slow hard-drives
23:19:17 <ais523> I installed it deliberately
23:19:17 <ehiird> (Yes, that includes X11 and WM startup)
23:19:24 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch that will hurt me. Mine has 5400 RPM after all
23:19:33 <ehiird> So yeah, less than 1 second startup on an SSD is pretty achievable methinks.
23:19:35 <Deewiant> Well, there's a few seconds of service startup before the password prompt as well
23:19:42 <ehiird> AnMaster: That's not slow
23:20:04 <ehiird> Probably 4800 rpm; his machine cost £300 or something
23:20:05 <ais523> not sure; how do I fing out?
23:20:15 <ehiird> They call 'em fingers etc.
23:20:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and lighttpd? Do you need it. If not always it might be better to start it only when you do
23:20:40 <AnMaster> ais523, seriously, cutting down on some services could help a great deal
23:20:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't make an amazing amout of difference
23:20:48 <ehiird> He didn't ask for help, AnMaster.
23:20:50 <ais523> and the issue is not "boot is slow"
23:20:56 <ais523> it's "karmic boot is slower than jaunty boot"
23:21:13 <ais523> (I have already cut out some services; I got rid of mysql because I wasn't using it and it was annoying me)
23:21:17 <ehiird> Regressions are never allowed even if it improves the situation for most people?
23:21:24 <ehiird> Hooray! The endless march of progress.
23:21:26 <Deewiant> If I bothered to setup some kind of dependency solving for my services it'd be faster: the major wait is waiting for a network connection, which I can't start in the background since some other things depend on it
23:21:40 <ais523> ehiird: I don't think it was a deliberate regression
23:21:58 <ais523> and it's most likely that there's a mistake somewhere, just because a regression implies that it's definitely possible to do better
23:22:02 <ehiird> Deewiant: I bet I can do 2 seconds with a disk, getting a network connection.
23:22:10 <ais523> ehiird: wired, or wireless?
23:22:17 <AnMaster> ais523, how does bootchart figure out what depends on what?
23:22:24 <Deewiant> Waiting for a DHCP response takes around 5-10 seconds, I think
23:22:35 <Deewiant> Or whatever it does; I presume that step is the major wait
23:22:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that much? around 2-3 seconds over ethernet here
23:22:48 <ais523> ehiird: it does, or at least it gets the info from somewhere
23:23:08 <ehiird> Deewiant: Oh. Without DHCP then.
23:23:24 <Deewiant> I don't think you need to do much setup without DHCP
23:23:28 <ehiird> Anyway, point is that my distro will be totally kick-ass I guess?
23:23:40 <ehiird> Deewiant: Clearly you don't use it if your startup only takes 3.5
23:23:42 <AnMaster> ehiird, services starting after login window?
23:23:48 <Deewiant> 'course, these are things that you can't really change by changing the distro
23:23:49 <ehiird> LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, BITCH
23:23:57 <ehiird> AnMaster: Passwords being skipped.
23:24:10 <ehiird> Also, it's not really level; mine includes X11 and window manager startup, whereas Deewiant's doesn't.
23:24:19 <ehiird> AnMaster: For benchmarking purposes, you dolt.
23:24:45 <AnMaster> ehiird, I meant, you can't manage that on a dual core system. Some stuff are generally CPU bound during boot
23:25:01 <ais523> yay, dpkg now has a progress bar
23:25:11 <ais523> that's nice, I have so much stuff on here it takes a while to read the database
23:25:13 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the point of that?
23:25:22 <ehiird> Anmaster: ??? you're talking nonsense
23:25:28 <ehiird> you can't do what on a d ual-core CPU
23:25:48 <AnMaster> ehiird, maybe. Depends on how many services you start and when you count the end
23:25:48 <ais523> AnMaster: bootchart uses colours to show if something's CPU-bound or IO-bound
23:25:54 <ais523> or neither, it might just be idling
23:26:17 <ehiird> AnMaster: You can't do WHAT?
23:26:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm how does it figure out
23:26:53 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably the same way top does
23:27:21 <AnMaster> idea: use bootchart to benchmark cfugne. Just start whatever is needed to run cfunge + mycology and use bootchart on the whole thing
23:27:37 <ais523> you could, I suppose, if you ran cfunge as a service
23:27:51 <ais523> but why would you use a boot profiler in order to profile a user-mode non-service program?
23:27:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well my plan was more of /etc/init doing it
23:28:11 <AnMaster> ais523, no other tool I know of produces such a nice graph
23:28:23 <AnMaster> ais523, err whatever the first script executed is called
23:28:33 <ais523> /etc/init seems to be a directory for me
23:28:58 <ais523> and the sort of init Debian (and therefore Ubuntu) uses puts the services in an init.d
23:29:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ah true, nothing like *bsd style
23:29:41 <ehiird> /etc/rc is a stupid name becaues you can't name a good shutdown script.
23:29:52 <ehiird> *because, *no space at start (gets interpreted as /e, I guess)
23:29:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't arch have some /etc/rc.sysinit or so?
23:30:14 <ehiird> would you stop fucking saying what to the most trivial lines
23:30:22 <AnMaster> <ehiird> /etc/rc is a stupid name becaues you can't name a good shutdown script.
23:30:30 <ehiird> yes, it's a trivial and easily understandable line
23:30:48 <AnMaster> ehiird, what is wrong with /etc/rc
23:31:04 <AnMaster> and rc is not shutdown, but boot
23:31:06 <ais523> AnMaster: http://www.bootchart.org/docs.html explains how it works, if you're interested
23:31:30 <ais523> hmm... Compiz seems more responsive than before in Karmic
23:31:39 <ehiird> AnMaster: Because /etc/rc and /etc/shutdown-script or whatever is inconsistent
23:31:44 <ehiird> Compare with /etc/init.start, /etc/init.stop
23:31:49 <ehiird> Or rc.start, rc.stop; whatever.
23:31:55 <ehiird> rc.boot, rc.shutdown, yada yada yada.
23:32:11 <ehiird> It's a bad name because it has no opposite.
23:32:22 <ehiird> ais523: better intel drivers, probably
23:32:27 <AnMaster> ehiird, err... /etc/rc.sysinit /etc/rc.shutdown iirc on *BSD?
23:32:33 <ais523> ehiird: seems reasonable
23:32:44 <ehiird> AnMaster: Then it's not named /etc/rc, duh
23:32:56 <ehiird> I complained about naming it /etc/rc, you see? Very simple?
23:33:01 <ehiird> No, you called /etc/rc the first executed script
23:33:14 <AnMaster> ehiird, and yes I think I seen /etc/rc too
23:33:29 <ehiird> Exactly, I'm saying that's a bad name
23:33:37 <AnMaster> ehiird, and /etc/rc.stop on that system to stop
23:34:24 <AnMaster> ehiird, she just commented on your!
23:34:50 <AnMaster> my mom commenting on your. Making a his mom joke.
23:35:10 <ehiird> (Incidentally: "Grammar fail.": Grammar fail.)
23:35:22 <AnMaster> ehiird, well yeah that is my failure at grammar.
23:35:29 <AnMaster> ehiird, that's a meme isn't it
23:35:30 <ehiird> "My mom commenting on yours", fwiw.
23:35:51 <AnMaster> in soviet russia mom's make your son jokes?
23:37:04 <ais523> beh, they removed unlambda from the repos
23:37:15 <ehiird> In Soviet Russia make your son jokes beloning to mom?
23:37:22 <ehiird> In Soviet Russia mom is make your son jokes?
23:37:37 <ehiird> ais523: probably unmaintained
23:37:47 <ais523> does it really need maintenance, though?
23:37:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ehiird: there *is* an rc in ais523's bootchart. Around midway
23:38:27 -!- nooga_ has joined.
23:38:31 <ais523> time to go home, anyway
23:38:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:40:01 <ehiird> Wait, PAE is just for over 4 GiB of RAM.
23:40:21 <ehiird> So, over 3.25 GiB of RAM or so, accounting for reserved areas.
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23:41:07 <ehiird> and you don't count because you won't use it anyway. it's not bloated enough.
23:41:45 <AnMaster> then that insult made no sense
23:41:56 <AnMaster> you know I'm paranoid. Thus it makes sense I use NX
23:42:07 <ehiird> I don't take what you want for it into account because you won't use it anyway, you see, and I don't care if you do.
23:42:23 <ehiird> So the fact that you want NX isn't relevant.
23:42:43 * AnMaster wonders what made ehird behave like this suddenly
23:42:51 <AnMaster> ehiird, anyway, are you planning 32-bit system?
23:42:58 <AnMaster> because otherwise PAE won't matter
23:43:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "it" as in his distro, not NX.
23:43:05 <ehiird> I'm not behaving like anything.
23:43:08 <AnMaster> since on 64-bit it is always in effect
23:43:12 <ehiird> What is it with people reading emotional contexts into my owrds?
23:43:37 <ehiird> Wasn't that really obvious?
23:43:47 <Deewiant> Wasn't it really obvious that it wasn't obvious to him?
23:44:28 <ehiird> He sounded like he was being hyper-literal about "nobody uses it" even after I explained that he wouldn't use the distro anyway.
23:44:33 <oklopol> Deewiant: wasn't it really obvious it wasn't obvious to him it wasn't obvious to AnMaster?
23:44:42 <ehiird> Anyway, I'm trying to decide what bittage to use, AnMaster.
23:45:01 <oklopol> disclaimer: i have no idea what you're talking about
23:45:09 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Wasn't it really obvious that it wasn't obvious to him? <-- of course
23:45:10 <ehiird> i686 is more compatible and uses less memory, but without PAE cruft we're stuck with a bit over 3 GiB of RAM available.
23:45:20 <Deewiant> oklopol: Of course it was, it was a rhetorical question
23:45:34 <ehiird> I'd rather not use x86_64 unless I have to.
23:45:39 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah, i just like patterns
23:45:40 <ehiird> Although it is slightly less crufty.
23:46:05 <oklopol> it was obvious to me is was obvious to you it wasn't obvious to him it wasn't obvious to him.
23:46:10 <ehiird> Wait, x86_64 actually uses PAE?
23:46:31 <ehiird> "On x86-64 processors, PAE is obligatory in native long mode"
23:46:54 <ehiird> That pretty much uses any reason I have to go x86_64, then (4 GiB of memory and up without PAE rubbish)
23:47:15 <ehiird> Since x86_64 actually has the PAE rubbish... what stupid design.
23:47:36 <AnMaster> ehiird, i686 is register starved
23:48:02 <AnMaster> ehiird, also isn't some of the newer SSE versions and such only for x86_64? Like that new AVX one iirc
23:48:21 <ehiird> Still not a ricer (also scientists are practically agents of the devil, so they should be prevented from computing)
23:48:51 <Deewiant> Well, strictly there's no reason you couldn't implement them on 32-bit CPUs
23:49:01 <Deewiant> It's just that all the processors that do or will implement them are 64-bit
23:49:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought you couldn't enable those features in legacy mode?
23:49:49 <Deewiant> Since when do they need to be explicitly enabled?
23:49:57 <pikhq> ehiird: You realise that PAE is nothing more than adding another level of depth in the page table, right? ;)
23:50:32 <fizzie> I don't think I've mentioned that Performa more than half a dozen times or so.
23:50:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since SSE? Because CPU has to save and restore register state between context switches.
23:50:45 <ehiird> Can you get 100 Mb/s in any of the Nordic countries apart from Finland? Always wondered why not
23:50:50 <ehiird> They all seem to cap out at 50
23:50:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, new registers/extended register size = new explicit enabling control register bit
23:52:00 <Deewiant> Hmm, if the register has run out of bits on 32-bit CPUs then you may be right. I haven't looked into it.
23:52:01 <ehiird> And only one person has it.
23:52:09 <ehiird> And they use it to try their laundry.
23:52:13 <ehiird> They might not even still have it.
23:52:53 <pikhq> ehiird: Vast improvement on the status here.
23:53:04 <pikhq> Where almost nobody has 50 Mbps.
23:53:05 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:53:23 <pikhq> (rather, has it even available)
23:54:32 <ehiird> pikhq: I know, but 50 Mb/s feels so half-hearted, doesn't it? :P
23:54:47 <ehiird> It's like, you've got the right pipe tech and all, and you go and blow it all on half the speed!
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00:07:53 * Sgeo tries Avidemux
00:08:05 * Sgeo needs a video editor, and a friend also needs a video editor
00:14:35 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
00:29:49 <lament> anyone tried composing trance?
00:30:27 <ehiird> lament: first, learn how to compose a bar of trance
00:30:34 <ehiird> second, congratulations!
00:31:12 <ehiird> The general electronic music and music-in-general tools, I would imagine.
00:32:54 <Oranjer> well how does trance make trance?
00:33:05 <lament> ehiird: see, the reason you're not helpful is because you actually have no clue about this
00:33:21 <lament> which is why i'm not sure why you're even talking, and which is why i asked if anyone tried composing trance
00:33:42 <ehiird> I've never seen a genre-specific electronic music composition tool, however.
00:33:47 <ehiird> So I would be surprised if trance had one.
00:33:57 <Oranjer> well, it makes sense for those to exist
00:34:49 <Sgeo> http://normish.org/sgeo/quotes.txt
00:34:51 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
00:35:42 <Sgeo> At least it reacted in the same minute
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00:41:08 <fizzie> I've been fiddling a bit with a data-driven trance-composing approach (some NMF sound source separation and a bit of clustering and a bit of grammar induction), but there are no real results yet, and that's probably not exactly what you meant.
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00:48:22 <oerjan> <AnMaster> argh where is oerjan when you need him
00:58:49 <oerjan> deep in the atmosphere
00:59:21 <Oranjer> deep in the antipodean atmo?
01:02:02 <oerjan> well, everywhere on earth is the antipode of somewhere
01:03:00 <Oranjer> but we're speaking of deep according to the base at which we begin measuring the depth or shallowness of a statement or thought
01:05:00 <Oranjer> okay, then I shall declare I am
01:06:39 <oerjan> Praeterea censeo ergo sum
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01:23:20 <ehiird> I need to decide 32-bit vs 64-bit pretty fast.
01:24:45 <ehiird> Oranjer: But that leads to higher memory usage and more legacy crap. Plus it uses PAE, which is a dirty hack, to access >4 GiB of RAM (my only reason not to use 32-bit); if I'm in for such a hack, I can just use PAE in 32-bit mode.
01:24:59 <oerjan> 48-bit gets so little love
01:25:06 <ehiird> OTOH, it's more "native" on modern processors, and it does remove a little bit of the cruft. It also has more registers.
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01:31:27 <SimonRC> Oh wow all these new debian packages I keep getting.
01:31:36 * SimonRC does an impression of a package from the "science" section:
01:31:41 <ehiird> Debian: the OS to use if you loooooooooooooooooooooooove new packages!
01:31:41 <SimonRC> libsmbxfrg - Redaltion of cross-FRGs to identify hectodyre sub-bindings
01:31:47 <SimonRC> SMBxFRG is a library for the hyperboline redaltion of semi-morphic-biased cross-FRGs. The hyperboline method is a AFL-based alternative to the more common centrate methodology of retrograde semi-gerentic FRG analysis, providing superior handling of candid-sequence ITF markov meshes, and capable of detecting beta-cyclomatic metrisation quotendates within IETA-chordic sub-hectodyres of the first, second, or fourth orders. The fixed points of the FRG-rectifica
01:31:54 <SimonRC> This package contains the Python bindings to the library.
01:32:02 <ehiird> SimonRC: But what about the flux capacitors?
01:32:27 <ehiird> Seriously, you have to wonder why the Debian folks haven't realised that having one huge monolithic repository isn't the solution and specialist third-party repositories are a good thing...
01:32:41 <SimonRC> I just ignore the subsections I don't care about
01:33:13 <SimonRC> I wish I had somewhere to put this sort of thing
01:33:35 <SimonRC> but I come up with it so rarely that it's not worth it
01:33:35 <ehiird> You think the Debian developers would listen?
01:33:59 <ehiird> Oh, wait — that package isn't real?
01:34:01 <SimonRC> I don't mind the current situation
01:34:27 <ehiird> It got cut off at "FRG-retifica", btw.
01:34:27 <SimonRC> although there are some packages that sound like that
01:34:46 <SimonRC> "FRG-rectification limits may be expressed as any catroliner polynomial of a JK-reductive D-space. Chordates may be loaded from standard HerACleS format files, version 2.2 or 3.0-3.5."
01:34:50 <SimonRC> "This package contains the Python bindings to the library."
01:35:17 * ehiird googles for PAE criticism
01:35:28 <SimonRC> maybe the line "* SimonRC does an impression of a package from the "science" section:" was a bit ambiguous
01:35:40 <ehiird> I thought you were just using an odd use of the word imppresrsion.
01:37:15 <ehiird> "PAE is a hack to get the OS to address 36 bits of physical memory address space, in order to overcome the 4GB limitation of 32-bit OS."
01:37:15 <ehiird> What a weak argument, considering that 64-bit OSs do it via PAE too.
01:37:22 <SimonRC> hm, "minbif" looks interesting
01:37:49 <ehiird> "IRC-friendly instant messaging client"
01:37:55 <ehiird> Which way? Like bitlbee or the other way?
01:38:27 <ehiird> IM is an inferior interface to IRC; and vice-versa too.
01:38:34 <ehiird> If you really want it, use Bitlbee; at least it's well-known.
01:38:37 <SimonRC> I think it lets you see IM as IRC
01:39:52 <ehiird> http://www.bitlbee.org/img/screenshot-mscchat.png
01:39:52 <ehiird> now THIS is a good use case
01:40:30 <ehiird> the cat in "lucumo: eek" made me lol
01:41:30 <Oranjer> is that doing what it looks like it is doing
01:42:01 <ehiird> Wait — PAE requires application support?
01:42:23 <ehiird> ... on one hand, fuck that shit, on the other hand, bleh!
01:46:57 <ehiird> a.out almost certainly doesn't support 64-bit.
01:59:02 <ehiird> "I don't think that Debian can really compete with Gentoo. Sure it might be okay, but when it comes to dependencies, you probably are still going to have to get them all on your own. Or is there something like portage in the Debian world as well?" -- funroll-loops.info
02:04:43 <Sgeo> Even I see the stupidity in that
02:08:06 <SimonRC> or Gren out of that book I forgot the name of
02:08:56 <Sgeo> I.. cannot believe I know that
02:10:44 <Sgeo> BTW, when I said Grendel before, I was referring to something else
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03:29:20 * Warrigal goes off to temporarily disable the connections between his brain and his plexuses.
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04:03:01 <ehiird> wtf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_sex_makespan
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04:28:09 <Jaykul> Heh, have you guys seen this guy looking for an example of a "real world" program written in an esoteric language? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1508581/is-there-any-practical-use-for-an-esoteric-language
04:29:55 <Sgeo> Mental benefits, I'd imagine
04:30:03 <Sgeo> Is a practical use
04:31:00 <Oranjer> it also provides *more* examples as to what a programming language *could* be, so you can then decide what it *should* be
04:31:13 <Jaykul> Well, despite the headline, he's not really looking for a practical esoteric language (that's an oxymoron), but rather for an example of someone writing a practical, real world app in an esoteric language (regardless of whether it was a good idea to use that language ;) )
04:31:35 <Oranjer> has anyone made a game in an esoteric language?
04:31:40 <Oranjer> or a game making program in one?
04:31:44 <pikhq> Oranjer: Yes; it's called Lost Kingdom.
04:32:03 <pikhq> Also, there's an IRC bot in Befunge.
04:33:10 <pikhq> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt There's the source.
04:59:18 <augur> let me tell you something interesting about negation in ASL :x
05:00:17 <Oranjer> no seriously, now I want to know
05:00:24 <Oranjer> now that google told me what ASL is
05:00:46 * pikhq probably knows it already.
05:01:15 <Oranjer> I would have never guessed
05:01:17 <augur> ASL has two ways of negating sentences
05:01:33 <augur> one is with an overt negation word
05:01:39 <augur> lets just call it not
05:01:49 <Oranjer> let's not and say we...oh, okay
05:02:41 <augur> and the other is with another word, call it NEG which has no overt realization
05:03:15 <augur> the word is there, but the way to "say" it is by not saying anything
05:03:42 <Oranjer> so how does the errr...reader realize it is being negated?
05:03:45 <augur> in both cases of negation, you have to use a THIRD "word", call it a scope indicator
05:03:57 <augur> that that does nothing more that indicate the scope of the negation
05:04:09 <augur> lets denote those by []'s
05:05:24 <augur> so an example of this negation stuff might be like so:
05:06:14 <augur> John [not] buy house == John is not buying a house
05:06:27 <augur> John [not buy house] == John is not buying a house
05:06:34 <augur> both of these are the same in meaning
05:07:21 <augur> but when you use the NEG word
05:07:28 <augur> you cannot get this:
05:07:32 <augur> John [NEG] buy house
05:07:39 <augur> John [NEG buy house]
05:08:10 <augur> where the negation scope marking extends to a small amount of time BEFORE the words "buy house"
05:08:22 <augur> as if NEG really is there taking up space but lacking in expression
05:10:10 <augur> so, interestingly, when there is an overt negation marker, you can omit the full scope marking, and by default it means it ranges over whatever its directly sister to
05:10:42 <augur> if you look at WH questions you get similar things
05:11:16 <augur> this one its a little trickier because you have two question morphemes, but neither of them are overt
05:11:51 <augur> however one of them causes overt effects, so lets call them Q for the one with no over effects, and q for the one with overt effects
05:12:30 <augur> where q forces the question word "who" to move to the end of the sentence
05:12:37 <augur> sentences that arent yes/no
05:13:00 <augur> so you also have a WH-question scope marker
05:13:35 <augur> {hate john q who}, as well as, hate john {q who}
05:13:43 <augur> but with the non-overt Q, you only get
05:13:59 <augur> you never get, who hate john {Q}
05:14:09 <augur> ir {who} hate john
05:17:15 <augur> you get this sort of thing all over the place with other phenomena too
05:17:51 <augur> also, get this, instead of using simple pronouns, because ASL is spatial, you just point
05:18:22 <augur> when you're talking about other people who arent there in the conversation, nor easilly pointed at
05:18:29 <augur> you just point in any random direction
05:18:40 <augur> and when you want to unambiguously refer to that person again, you point in the same direction
05:19:17 <augur> so you can unambiguously keep track of multiple unnamed participants by associating them with particular locations in the space around the conversers.
05:22:13 <Oranjer> sucks, though, if a conversation's referenced people gets so crowded that you screw up a reference
05:22:40 <augur> its a really need phenomena tho man
05:27:39 <Oranjer> what do you think of taking advantage of knowing Conway's Law and making a business that makes it's decisions using Consensus Decision Making?
05:27:57 <augur> whats conway's law
05:28:32 <Oranjer> an organization will almost certainly produce systems/products that match the internal structure of the organization
05:30:11 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law
05:30:44 <augur> <augur> i dont know.
05:31:22 <Oranjer> what do you think of me taking those exams for credits, instead of taking the courses?
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05:32:17 <Oranjer> like, instead of taking the basic courses in college, I just take an exam that gives me the course's credit if I pass
05:33:46 <augur> stop being irritating.
05:34:13 <Oranjer> I want your opinion on taking those exams
05:35:19 <augur> im not a prophet or a fortune teller or anything!
05:37:21 <MizardX> Oranjer: Isn't the point that you learn as much as possible? If you already know the content of one cource, you might as well learn something else instead.
05:38:00 <MizardX> The credits are just to make sure you have learnt enough at the end
05:38:09 <Oranjer> so you're saying I should just take the tests?
05:38:41 <MizardX> No. I'm saying that you should study for some other cource, one that you don't already know.
05:39:35 <Oranjer> well, I'm talking about taking the tests for courses whose credits are required, *and* that I already know
05:40:06 <Oranjer> as in, either I take the course, or I take the test, I can't opt out
05:40:14 <MizardX> If you think you can pass the exam, you might as well take it.
05:40:45 <Oranjer> but I was concerned--is it seen as less of an accomplishment?
05:41:08 <MizardX> Does that matter? You get the credits.
05:41:29 <Oranjer> very well, I shall do every such exam I can find! huzzah!
05:42:40 <augur> MizardX is probably younger than you.
05:43:02 <augur> wait what someone my age?
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05:43:43 <zzo38> I asked on #bochs already, but I'm asking here too because more people are on here, in case anyone knows anything about Bochs or about operating systems or about MBR:
05:43:48 <zzo38> I created a disk image, and then I put at address $0: [B8 00 B8 8E C0 26 C6 06 FF 01 9A EB FE] and at address $1FE: [55 AA]. Why won't it load?
05:44:52 <zzo38> It just displays the VGA BIOS screen and then won't do anything.
05:44:57 <augur> algebraic datastructures
05:45:46 <Oranjer> what are these addresses zzo38?
05:46:51 <zzo38> These are the addresses in the file called c.img
05:47:15 <Oranjer> how uh how can you have addresses inside a file
05:47:30 <zzo38> I mean, the address of where the data is stored in the file. $0 is the beginning of the file
05:48:32 <MizardX> B8 00 B8 8E C0 26 C6 06 FF 01 9A EB FE is the code section of the MBR. 55 AA is the signature bytes.
05:49:04 <zzo38> Yes, at least that's what it is supposed to be, am doing something wrong?
05:49:12 <zzo38> It won't even load it. (I checked)
05:49:39 <zzo38> After I can get it to load, then I can see if the code is correct.
05:49:50 <zzo38> But, first, how do I load it?
05:55:04 <zzo38> No, that isn't how.
05:55:21 <augur> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091026125401.htm
05:55:28 <MizardX> add DWord ptr DS:[edx+0000FEEB],ebx
05:56:20 <Oranjer> sleep deprivation only does one thing to me, and that's make me sweat
05:56:41 <augur> it makes me sweat a bit too
05:56:48 <augur> a cold grimey sweat
05:57:06 <Oranjer> I can't feel it, /but I know it's there/
05:58:42 <augur> i wish i knew some organic chemistry
05:58:49 <augur> so i could experiment with this stuff
05:59:18 <augur> or start an illegal underground H+ organization x3
06:00:07 <zzo38> MizardX: It is supposed to be a 16-bit code however, because it is real-mode, isn't it supposed to?
06:00:30 <Oranjer> we can always start an invisible school
06:00:55 <augur> theres a freeschool in baltimore
06:01:26 <Oranjer> there's a reason you aren't taking organic chemistry there, isn't there?
06:02:19 <augur> its a school run by anarchists
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06:50:55 <zzo38> I have tried other disk images too, nothing works, I just get the BIOS screen and then it just does nothing after that.
06:57:47 <zzo38> I think I fixed it. It needs at least 2M memory allocated to work, I was allocating 1M
06:57:57 <zzo38> Now I will try again.
06:59:27 <zzo38> Why doesn't the documentation say you need at least 2M allocated?
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07:19:01 <ehird> You know what JFS is?
07:19:11 <augur> Javascript File System! :o
07:19:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: okay
07:20:02 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: are you as think as you drunk you are?
07:20:46 <bsmntbombdood> i know that's backwards but i read it perfectly the first time :D
07:22:37 <oerjan> the fact that your spelling is still perfect is suspicious. but maybe you have a spell checker.
07:24:48 <bsmntbombdood> i bet you've never licked something with a air dish number of 4
07:25:12 <oerjan> what the heck is an air dish number
07:27:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: let's get married!
07:27:53 <ehird> okay we're married now
07:27:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i want a divorce!
07:29:11 <ehird> ejaculatory alimony.
07:45:37 <oerjan> yes. one might say that.
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07:56:51 <oerjan> and with internet access to boot
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08:00:20 <oerjan> nothing. civilization is an illusion.
08:00:38 <oerjan> also, i should probably go to bed soon.
08:03:04 <oerjan> that's because it's a secret. i should probably not have told you.
08:03:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: mix the tea, the bagel, irish cream, and some alcohol-based beverage together
08:04:09 <oerjan> argh. that is _definitely_ not civilized.
08:17:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so what
08:17:40 <ehird> you can never have too much alcohol!
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10:25:11 <AnMaster> 08:00:38 <oerjan> also, i should probably go to bed soon.
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12:13:22 <fizzie> How old-fashioned; it's been out almost a day or so already.
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13:12:46 <zzo38> I should try to assign this power to my character in D&D game, please read: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/my_rule_1.txt
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13:42:56 <oklopol> sleep deprivation makes me sweet
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14:09:41 <sierinjs> if the pointer of block in brainfuck is 0 and a < occours inside [], then it exits from the [], right?
14:14:09 <oklopol> if the IP encounters a < in the prorgram, the MP moves one step left on the tape
14:15:30 <AnMaster> "GRUB 2 is the default boot loader for new installations with Ubuntu 9.10 RC, replacing the previous GRUB "Legacy" boot loader."
14:15:39 <AnMaster> though "Existing systems will not be upgraded to GRUB 2 at this time, as automatically reinstalling the boot loader is an inherently risky operation."
14:25:41 <sierinjs> oklopol: mkaaaay, but what's IP/MP?
14:26:04 <oklopol> instruction pointer, memory pointer
14:28:08 <sierinjs> yeah, but if < happens within [] and MP is 0?
14:29:47 <oklopol> there's no what if, there are no exceptions
14:30:30 <sierinjs> erm, m'okay, but that doesn't explain much
14:32:09 <oklopol> by MP = 0 do you mean you're at the leftmost cell? that's implementation dependent
14:32:32 <oklopol> but that has nothing to do with whether you're in a loop so i assumed you meant the value of the cell and not the pointer
14:33:14 <sierinjs> i'm making my own brainfuck interpreter ^_^
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15:11:03 <sierinjs> are there any other conditions when interpreter exits from [] than when MP = 0?
15:40:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: Debian did the GRUB 2 update so that they added a single entry to the GRUB 1 menu to chainload GRUB 2 with; then you could test it out, and if it worked, say "sudo update-from-grub-legacy" to stick GRUB 2 to the MBR. (I guess it's still a bit risky, but better.)
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15:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, http://omploader.org/vMm51YQ bootchart for laptop on jaunty
15:56:46 <AnMaster> oh and I tried karmic in a VM. What the hell is up with gdm? You can no longer change the theme of it easily it seems
15:57:07 * AnMaster ended up googling and doing some stuff from the vt as root to be able to fix it
15:59:12 <AnMaster> this seems so very unlike ubuntu
15:59:31 <AnMaster> and horrible looking splash screen when you log in
16:02:13 <ais523> yes, the theme seems impossible to change altogether
16:02:45 <ais523> I'm slightly annoyed that the login screen lists all the users/usernames, finding the correct username is a speedbump for people trying to use a computer incorrectly
16:02:51 <AnMaster> ais523, see http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/09/hack-karmics-gdm-login-screen.html
16:02:55 <ais523> although, I'm not sure if you can make that login screen come up remotely
16:03:32 <AnMaster> http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=205633 (fedora yes, but the approach works for me under ubuntu too):
16:03:36 <AnMaster> sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults --type bool --set /apps/gdm/simple-greeter/disable_user_list true
16:04:06 <AnMaster> ais523, still that instead requires you to click a button before entering user name
16:04:30 * AnMaster decides to check if you can make it use another login manager, from xfce or maybe kdm
16:05:26 <ais523> AnMaster: I have both gdm and kdm installed
16:05:35 <ais523> Ubuntu handled this by telling kdm to exit immediately upon loading
16:05:44 <ais523> which is kind-of amusing, because upstart has it set to respawn
16:05:54 <ais523> so when the computer loads, gdm loads once, kdm loads about 10 times
16:06:01 <ais523> before upstart notices the loop and stops respawning it
16:06:08 <AnMaster> ais523, this seems rather silly
16:06:30 <ais523> (this reminds me of Ubuntu trying to disable the beep on shutdown by blacklisting the PC speaker kernel module....)
16:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, btw does karmic fix it properly?
16:06:52 <ais523> AnMaster: the beep doesn't occur, I'm not sure why
16:06:57 <ais523> I think the shutdown sequence is entirely different
16:07:01 <ais523> meaning that the bug doesn't happen
16:07:47 <AnMaster> [ ! -f /etc/X11/default-display-manager -o "$(cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null)" = "/usr/sbin/gdm" ]
16:07:54 <AnMaster> weird line to have in the upstart gdm script
16:08:05 <AnMaster> I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to do
16:08:10 <AnMaster> it seems the result of the test is never used
16:09:22 <fizzie> Is it a shell script or just some "execute commands and stop if a command fails" script?
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16:10:55 <fizzie> It might be the latter, in which case it makes sense.
16:11:31 <fizzie> (I don't really know anything about upstart.)
16:11:32 <AnMaster> synaptic thinks tzdata is deprecated
16:11:40 <AnMaster> as in, not available in karmic any longer
16:11:47 <AnMaster> oh and lots of available packages depends on it
16:11:55 <AnMaster> and apt-get refuses to reinstall it even when told to
16:13:21 <fizzie> That's strange; there's tzdata 2009o-1ubuntu2 in karmic according to packages.ubuntu.com.
16:13:58 <fizzie> I guess I should try out the Koala in the iBook some of these days. Don't really remember what it had installed.
16:14:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is the one I have installed
16:14:27 <AnMaster> there are *two* ones listed for me
16:14:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://pastebin.ca/1650514
16:15:04 <AnMaster> can you make any sense of that?
16:16:23 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:17:29 <AnMaster> it also says that some packages are unused and suggests using autoremove for them
16:17:47 <AnMaster> openoffice.org-l10n-sv openoffice.org-l10n-en-gb openoffice.org-help-en-gb gimp-help-common openoffice.org-l10n-common
16:17:47 <AnMaster> gimp-help-en gimp-help-sv openoffice.org-help-sv
16:18:57 <fizzie> They have probably changed the dependency types so that those no longer autoinstall. (Maybe. If so, you can always tag those as manually installed.)
16:19:09 <fizzie> I don't really know how to use Synaptic, though, since I always just use aptitude.
16:19:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, apt-get for me unless I don't know how to do it that way... then I use synaptic
16:20:15 <fizzie> Aptitude's better than apt-get at dependency-handling; you can browse resolution suggestions and so on.
16:20:40 <fizzie> How's it going with the Ubuntu Software Center or whatnot? Wasn't that in karmic already?
16:21:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah it is even worse than the old gnome thingy for that
16:21:18 <AnMaster> a lot more clicks to select something for install
16:21:31 <AnMaster> you seem to only be able to install one at a time
16:21:43 <AnMaster> no "select check boxes, then click install
16:23:27 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul.
17:00:21 <Pthing> !bf [-]+++++++++++>[-]>[-]>>[-]+>>[-]<[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[<[-]>[-]<<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-][-]>>>>[-]<[-]>>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<
17:00:21 <Pthing> <<<+>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]<<<[<<.>>[-]]>>>>[<<<<<<->>>>>->-]<[>-<-]<<[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<<.>.<<<<<[-]>[<+>-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<-]
17:10:45 <AnMaster> Pthing, you can easily compress that a bit though
17:10:52 <AnMaster> for instance, the initial [-] isn't required
17:11:06 <Pthing> i just saw it somewhere and wondered what it did
17:11:29 <Pthing> would do, but i'm doing something else
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17:17:27 <ais523> Pthing: paste it and set EgoBot to the pastebin
17:18:13 <AnMaster> great, after trying to switch to kdm, X refuses to start
17:18:17 <AnMaster> with completely unrelated errors
17:18:24 <AnMaster> yet switching back to gdm fixes it
17:19:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:20:51 <ais523> !bf +++++++++++>>>>+>++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[[-]<[-]<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-]>>>[-]>[-]>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<-]<<[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-
17:20:53 <ais523> ]<<<<<.>.<<<<<[-]>[<+>-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<-]
17:21:05 <ais523> I was busy peephole-optimising by han
17:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, paste it and set EgoBot to the pastebin!
17:22:16 <ais523> !bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/1650570
17:22:30 <ais523> well, that was anticlimatic
17:22:44 <fax> !fungot style
17:23:19 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:23:31 <AnMaster> fax, and you are confusing the bots
17:23:42 <ais523> (fungot isn't here...)
17:23:50 <fax> fungot ^style
17:24:04 <fizzie> And you can run longer programs on fungot with the text-variable-thing.
17:24:29 <fizzie> "IRC read failed."; must've been a netsplit, or break in my connection.
17:24:41 <ais523> !bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
17:24:56 <ais523> oh, EgoBot doesn't accept that sort of input
17:25:27 <fizzie> And now my hostname is wrong, aw.
17:25:30 <ais523> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.+]
17:25:36 <EgoBot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
17:25:45 <ais523> (confining it to printables will probably produce a more readable output)
17:25:46 -!- fizzie has quit ("jumpin' jumpin'").
17:25:48 -!- fizzie has joined.
17:26:14 -!- fungot has joined.
17:26:51 <fizzie> ^str 0 set +++++++++++>>>>+>++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[[-]<[-]<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-]>>>[-]>[-]>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<-]
17:26:51 <fungot> Set: +++++++++++>>>>+>++++++++++[>+++<-]>++<<<<<<[>[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[>>+<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[-]>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<<<<[-]>>[-]++++++++++[<<++++>>-]<<++++++++<[>>>+>>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>+>+<<<<<-]>>>>>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<[>>+>[-]<[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[[-]<[-]<[-]<---------->>>>+<[-]]<<<<-]>>>[-]>[-]>[<+<+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>+>>-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<<<-]
17:27:04 <fizzie> ^str 0 add <<[<<<+>>>>>+<<-]>>[<<+>>]<<<<<.>.<<<<<[-]>[<+>-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<<-]
17:27:20 <ais523> fizzie: I tried running it locally, it used up 100% of my CPU and didn't do anything obvious
17:27:35 <fizzie> Oh, well. That's not so interesting, then.
17:27:52 <fizzie> Anyway, something like that can be used to run longer programs.
17:28:07 <fizzie> (Unless I've broken it.)
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17:29:01 <ais523> we need a fingerprint that creates Befunge VMs
17:29:14 <ais523> so that you could safely run arbitrary Befunge-98 without it breaking out and affecting the rest of the program
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19:00:34 <oerjan> iwc = irregular webcomic
19:00:53 <Oranjer> actually, I had forgotten, thanks
19:00:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, seems he forgot to close one <b> tag
19:01:17 <AnMaster> "News: I am away from the Internet from 31 Oct to 3 Nov. I will not be reading or responding to e-mail during this time. The comics should update as normal, but if anything goes wrong, I won't be able to fix it."
19:01:27 <AnMaster> why is it things always break when he is away
19:01:37 <oerjan> um i haven't read it yet
19:02:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523: something is broken with firefox in ubuntu karmic
19:02:17 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't use system wide setting for hinting and AA
19:02:26 <AnMaster> much more blurry and slightly subpixelishg
19:03:14 <AnMaster> http://www.ubuntu-inside.me/2009/07/howto-fix-firefox-35s-font-hinting.html
19:07:50 * oerjan didn't realize it was 11:11 GMT before
19:08:55 <oerjan> iwc update time. that "no reason" in the faq seems rather dubious now
19:09:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is 11:11 *somewhere* if you publish it at 11 past
19:09:59 <oerjan> yes but it could be a WWI reference
19:10:19 <oerjan> alas, it seems WWI ended at 11:00, not 11:11
19:10:25 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11:11_%28numerology%29
19:11:21 <ais523> it should have been 11:11:11 1/9
19:12:41 <oerjan> i cannot say i have noticed that particular coincidence. obviously it will now start cropping up all over the place :)
19:14:41 <oerjan> and just now i discovered wikipedia has deleted the page on the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. Coincidence? I think not!
19:16:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, Baader-Meinhof phenomenon?
19:16:01 <oerjan> also, i am joking. despite believing in synchronicity.
19:16:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW NOW, WHAT, WITH IT BEING DELETED
19:16:26 <Deewiant> Well, you're not joking in that it was deleted, some months ago IIRC.
19:16:27 * AnMaster knows what Baader-Meinhof was, but not what the "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" is/was
19:16:33 <oerjan> unless you use the power of the google
19:18:10 <oerjan> BUT THAT WOULD BE CHEATING
19:18:47 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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19:21:31 <AnMaster> ais523, another karmic issue: you know the menu for logout/shutdown and such?
19:21:44 <AnMaster> why is there a status setting thingy at the top of it
19:21:57 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you get rid of it?
19:22:03 <ais523> the options are grayed out if there aren't any running programs that care
19:22:09 <AnMaster> I don't want it to clutter the menu
19:22:09 <ais523> and I don't know; it's just the one menu option
19:22:39 <ais523> there's probably some way to turn it off somewhere
19:22:43 <AnMaster> ais523, also switching to kdm seems like only sane option under karmic
19:22:44 <ais523> and it'll probably be on the Web by now
19:23:19 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the name of the sub menu in English. For some reason that single menu is i18ned to Swedish here...
19:23:43 <AnMaster> ais523, thanks. Oh what is the odd letter icon thingy for
19:24:03 <ais523> what odd letter icon thingy?
19:24:20 <AnMaster> ais523, argh: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/+bug/447964
19:24:34 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems linked to evolution, But it is in the indicator applet thingy
19:24:42 <AnMaster> which iirc is used for other (useful) stuff
19:24:49 <AnMaster> so not sure how to get rid of the evolution icon
19:24:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: maybe it's not a missing <b>. maybe the web page just has an evil beard
19:25:24 <ais523> it's empathy it's linked to, not evolution
19:25:36 <ais523> that means new mail arrived, I think
19:25:49 <ais523> just turn off evolution-alarm-notifier in the services thing
19:27:12 * AnMaster tries to uninstall the relevant packages
19:27:49 <oerjan> evolution-alarm-notifier sounds badass. like, it goes off if somewhere evolves giant man-eating squirrels...
19:28:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, no. It is just a boring enterprisy gorupwareific thing
19:28:28 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
19:28:37 <AnMaster> god damn. Even uninstalling didn't help
19:29:37 <AnMaster> mail-notification - mail notification in system tray
19:29:38 <AnMaster> mail-notification-evolution - evolution support for mail notification
19:30:16 <AnMaster> oh, claims that isn't installed
19:31:44 <AnMaster> ah I guess it is the indicator-messages package
19:32:03 <AnMaster> indicator-applet* indicator-applet-session* indicator-messages* indicator-session* ubuntu-desktop*
19:32:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:33:00 <ais523> AnMaster: why do you think I can help?
19:33:26 <zzo38> Do you think this is good, and what level adjustment (if any), and what other stuff should I write on this file? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/my_rule_1.txt
19:33:46 <AnMaster> ais523, you used ubuntu longer. But anyway I need somewhere to release my irritation. Speaking with you works.
19:35:46 -!- ehird has joined.
19:36:05 <zzo38> And, how bad is this game, in your opinion: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
19:37:31 <ais523> zzo38: hard to tell from that description
19:37:40 <ais523> (to your second question)
19:38:01 <zzo38> You can try play it, if you want to.
19:38:21 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
19:38:29 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
19:38:40 <zzo38> That's all you need to run it
19:38:55 <ais523> for your first question, I don't think you'd persuade many people to play that class even with an LA of -19
19:39:24 <zzo38> That is not a class or race, it is a add-on. And I would very much like to apply it to my character if the DM wants to
19:40:04 <zzo38> The DM wants to think about LA too however
19:40:12 <ais523> it just seems like a way to die pretty quickly
19:40:12 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
19:40:18 <zzo38> So if I can get help, we can figure it out. I think -19 is too low
19:40:35 <zzo38> And I think I can survive with this
19:40:48 <zzo38> And even use it to my benefit in strange ways
19:40:57 <ais523> you're probably unlikely to run at anything but LA 0
19:41:02 <ais523> negative LAs freak DMs out
19:41:06 <ais523> and positive would clearly be unfair
19:41:15 <zzo38> The DM actually said LA -20.
19:41:23 <zzo38> However I said that's too low (in my opinion)
19:42:04 <ais523> anyway, I don't see how you're going to get out of the problem that you take damage every hour and have no natural healing
19:42:16 <ais523> you're going to wear the clerics on your team dry
19:42:36 <zzo38> I don't take damage every hour. It happens only in stuff in case of the things listed, in the past hour.
19:42:45 <zzo38> So if I avoid those things, I won't take that damage.
19:42:59 <zzo38> And, we have no clerics in our party, however I have some healing powers
19:43:37 <zzo38> (The ones about items/artifacts are if you have carried/used that item in the past hour, not counting inaccessible items due to transformation)
19:44:20 <zzo38> And, many of these things can be suppressed temporarily due to the use of Permanent Max HP Loss Actions
19:45:39 <zzo38> My DM actually *suggested* negative LA. I disagreed but he insists
19:47:46 <zzo38> However, he won't be in this country today.
19:47:50 <coppro> negative LA seems like a truly terrible idea
19:48:36 <zzo38> However, you could still add up everything and if the total is negative increase it to +0. But I'm not sure how best it is though
19:49:04 <coppro> Who needs decent racial traits when you can cast wish at level 1?
19:49:33 <zzo38> I know, that's why total LA should never be negative
19:51:00 <ais523> coppro: a level 1 wish would require an LA of -16
19:51:04 <ais523> which seems kind-of unlikely
19:51:15 <ais523> I know there was an effort to weaken goblins to the point where LA -1 was balanced, but they didn't manage it
19:51:18 <ehird> ais523: hi hypocrite
19:51:25 <AnMaster> ais523, zzo38 what is this LA? thing?
19:51:32 <ais523> ehird: what are you going to accuse me of hypocriticality about?
19:51:33 <coppro> AnMaster: LA is Level Adjustment
19:51:33 <zzo38> LA=Level Adjustment.
19:51:49 <coppro> it's basically a crutch to allow players to play stronger races by reducing the number of class levels they get
19:51:53 <zzo38> It means that your XP and starting money is calculated due to a different level than the actual one
19:51:57 <ehird> ais523: <ais523> why don't we talk about esolangs more! <ais523> I wish this channel was on topic! <ais523> can we talk about esolangs?
19:52:01 <ehird> ais523: <ais523> blah blah blah DnD or whatever
19:52:05 <ais523> seems a bit unlikely, really
19:52:13 <ais523> also, this channel is zzo38's while he's here
19:52:19 <coppro> (actually, you wouldn't be able to cast wish at level 1 anyway due to XP requirements, but still...)
19:52:22 <zzo38> For example, LA+1 means your XP is calculated due to your HD level + 1
19:53:03 <zzo38> This channel is not mine, if it was it would clearly have a + sign at the beginning of its name instead of #
19:53:26 * coppro loves 3.5e. It's a stellar exapmle of how NOT to design a game
19:53:56 <zzo38> I happen to like 3.5e however there are some things wrong, that I try to fix by writing Icosahedral RPG instead
19:54:34 <ehird> wow, at least i was outright aggressive about it as opposed to passive-aggressive
19:55:11 <ais523> AnMaster: languages are really annoying when you find you need an operator on all objects to see if they're a particular constant or not
19:55:21 <ehird> ais523: i don't think you do</peanut gallery>
19:55:34 <AnMaster> wow I believe X on karmic just crashed when the screen was locked
19:55:36 <ais523> ehird: I can't figure out how to parse that sentence in content
19:55:48 <AnMaster> and now the lock screen option is gone
19:55:51 <ehird> the is-it-a-constant
19:55:58 <ehird> don't think you need it
19:56:17 <AnMaster> ais523, does your karmic has an option in the logout/shutdown menu to lock the screen?
19:56:21 <ais523> ehird: well, the issue is, the only way to find out what an object is is to send messages to it
19:56:22 <ais523> the messages are also options
19:56:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, and it works
19:56:41 <ehird> AnMaster: you have to login via gdm
19:56:41 <ais523> AnMaster: well, you are messing with that menu...
19:56:44 <ehird> not start x yourself.
19:56:52 <AnMaster> ais523, no I wasn't. I gave up on it
19:56:52 <ais523> ehird: aha, because it's gdm that handles the locking
19:57:03 <ehird> AnMaster: then tough shit.
19:57:05 <coppro> AnMaster: I've been using karmic for months now and never had anything of the sort happen - and I'm on KDE
19:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, issue is with gdm in karmic being horrible
19:57:26 <ehird> expecting gnome to integrate with kdm is quite laughable.
19:57:32 <ehird> AnMaster: is it? i've used it and it was absolutely fine.
19:58:09 <ais523> coppro: AnMaster has decided that the new gdm is intolerably bad
19:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't set a better colour scheme without a log of hacks to begin with (that default brown diarrhoea look is quite ugly!)
19:58:21 <ehird> coppro: anmaster uses ubuntu because it "just works" and then changes everything about it and complains when it braeks.
19:58:22 <AnMaster> sure there are hacks to get rid of it
19:58:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't brown by default, it's greyscale
19:58:31 <zzo38> So, is LA -1 for this file I wrote good enough (my character's LA is already +1 so that simply cancels it out). I don't believe it should be lower.
19:58:32 <AnMaster> you need to click a button before entering user name
19:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster: if that's diarrhoea colour to you, by the way, you have bowel problems
19:58:58 <ehird> i've never had orange diarrhoea.
19:59:17 <ehird> oh, i forgot, your screen makes everything look utterly wrong.
19:59:24 <ehird> right, sorry, it's orange in fact, you see.
19:59:36 <zzo38> Whatever number it is I will add it to the file before printing it out a second time
20:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, hm you have /usr/share/gdm/themes/HumanList/background.png as the bg image?
20:00:51 <ehird> Show me a screenshot, I'm not booting into Ubuntu.
20:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, since this is in a vm it will take a sec
20:01:27 <zzo38> And, you can discuss scoring of computer games? (Just any computer games in general, I mean)
20:01:45 <zzo38> Some is I think the scoring is wrong or is OK but could be improved, usually I try to improve it
20:02:08 <ais523> zzo38: make sure there isn't some repetitive action you can take to increase your score arbitrarily high
20:02:13 <ais523> like Death farming in NetHack
20:02:25 <ehird> is that where you farm Death himself
20:03:03 <zzo38> ais523: I always keep rtack of this. However, many games do not.
20:03:09 <ehird> 08:21:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah it is even worse than the old gnome thingy for that
20:03:10 <ehird> 08:21:10 <AnMaster> IMO
20:03:10 <ehird> 08:21:18 <AnMaster> a lot more clicks to select something for install
20:03:10 <ehird> 08:21:23 <AnMaster> or deselect it
20:03:10 <ehird> 08:21:24 <AnMaster> in fact
20:03:11 <ehird> 08:21:31 <AnMaster> you seem to only be able to install one at a time
20:03:12 <ehird> 08:21:36 <AnMaster> or deinstall one at a time
20:03:14 <ehird> 08:21:43 <AnMaster> no "select check boxes, then click install
20:03:17 <ehird> you can go to another package and install it while the other is installing
20:03:19 <ais523> ehird: yes, you kill-equivalent him repeatedly
20:03:19 <ehird> and it is not more clicks
20:03:35 <ais523> as in, actually killing Death permanently doesn't really make sense, but you can repeatedly knock him out
20:03:41 <ehird> type to search, double click the package, click Install.
20:03:46 <zzo38> Occasionally, it is possible (with very minor changes to the game) to fix it by requiring that you have to complete the entire game but with the lowest total score possible, instead of the highest.
20:03:57 <ehird> with the old one: type to search, tick the package, click install, click "Close" at the end
20:04:10 <ehird> it's the same amount
20:04:17 <ehird> the button changes to uninstall
20:04:19 <ehird> instead of install
20:04:37 <AnMaster> ehird, no. I went to category and then only thing was an arrow button that you showed an info screen about the app
20:04:44 <AnMaster> then there the uninstall button was
20:05:00 <AnMaster> clearly more clicks than clicking check boxes in the old category lists
20:05:01 <zzo38> For one thing, I think the ADOM scoring could definitely be improved a lot
20:05:03 <ehird> Which is why you search when you want to uninstall something, because obviously you already know what it is.
20:05:21 <AnMaster> ehird, actually no. I wanted to see "what useless crap is there here to get rid of"
20:06:16 <ehird> how about, if you're going to go against ubuntu's philosophy and be a malcontent about every-fucking-thing they've done, stop using ubuntu
20:06:37 <ehird> you say you want it to "just work" but clearly you're not happy with that considering how long you spend changing everything
20:06:44 <AnMaster> hm that background is yellow-brownish on my desktop
20:06:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
20:07:11 <zzo38> Yes, you don't have to use Ubuntu, there are various others, you can even write your own if you prefer
20:07:40 <ehird> AnMaster: The word for "yellow-brownish" is "orange".
20:07:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the splash screen
20:07:54 <AnMaster> that is brown on my desktop too
20:08:03 <ehird> Define splash screen.
20:08:06 <AnMaster> ehird, this http://omploader.org/vMm55MQ
20:08:23 <AnMaster> (different res, just picked one randomly from that directory)
20:08:23 <ehird> That's very-dim-browny-pinky-purpley.
20:08:34 -!- Kalagar has quit.
20:08:34 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the thing used for the ubuntu splash
20:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, further, even the orange look of the gdm background is ugly as fuck
20:09:45 <ehird> Nobody gives a fuck what you think about the artwork!
20:09:54 <ehird> If you hate it so much you're going to die oh god, don't fucking use Ubuntu!
20:10:10 <ehird> We get it! Ubuntu is uglier than babies thrown in a blender!
20:10:11 <AnMaster> ehird, of course you can work around it. What about the user list? ais523 didn't like that either
20:10:16 <Sgeo> SCP-413: THE BUILDINGS NEXT DOOR AND ACROSS THE STREET DONT BELIEVE IM A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF SOCIETY AND THAT I WILL GIVE AWAY THEIR PLANS
20:10:16 <Sgeo> Dr. ███████: What plans?
20:10:16 <Sgeo> SCP-413: THAT WE ATTACK TOMRROW
20:10:36 <ehird> AnMaster: why do you continually use the argument "AIS523 DID IT TOO EXCEPT 10X LESS ANNOYINGLY"?
20:10:45 <ehird> it's highly unconvincing, even if i accept its blatant appeal to authority
20:10:47 <ais523> ok, this argument about the gdm background is confusing me
20:10:55 <ais523> AnMaster says it's orange, ehird says it's purple, I say it's grey
20:11:05 <AnMaster> ais523, it is not gray. No way.
20:11:06 <ehird> he says it's brown
20:11:15 <ais523> same colour, technically speaking
20:11:21 <ehird> shut up, both of you, you both use crappy TN laptop displays
20:11:28 <ehird> I know what colour it is :-P
20:11:31 <ehird> the middle bit is browny
20:11:35 <ehird> then it doees to crimsony at the sides
20:11:42 <ehird> and there's sort of a hint of purple in the halo of the bottom bit
20:12:15 <AnMaster> and the gray scale thing is the shutdown thingy
20:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway. The login list can as I mentioned be forced off by gconf stuff. But then you get a button to click before you can enter user name
20:13:25 * AnMaster assumes ehird will find is silly that anyone wanted to hide user list
20:13:53 <ais523> I don't, the user-list sort-of assumes people will primarily use the mouse
20:14:04 <ehird> you can type your password
20:14:15 <ais523> umm, there's more than one user on the list?
20:14:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to have to type user name too.
20:14:24 <ehird> ais523: arrow keys?
20:14:29 <ais523> and IIRC, there's no obvious way to tell which user is selected
20:15:44 <zzo38> Ubuntu is all many different kind of problems, I have to write my own different distribution instead for better
20:15:54 <ais523> ah, got it, it's in reverse video
20:15:58 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:16:03 <ais523> next issue: I've used computers so much that I don't even /notice/ reverse video...
20:16:28 <AnMaster> ais523, what would cause the reverse video? screen tilt?
20:16:29 -!- coppro has joined.
20:17:08 <ais523> AnMaster: repeatedly switching between black-background and white-background programs and/or websites
20:17:10 <zzo38> Ubuntu has been called "Windows Linux Edition" in some cases
20:17:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what exactly do you mean by reverse video here?
20:17:54 <AnMaster> ais523, or you mean it does that for selection?
20:17:57 <ais523> AnMaster: black on white rather than white on black
20:18:03 <ais523> zzo38: have you ever seen Linspire?
20:18:10 <ais523> and yes, it does that for selection
20:18:28 <zzo38> I have seen Linspire too, but FreeGeek uses Ubuntu
20:19:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you have against a "enter username" text input?
20:19:34 <ehird> Nothing, and I never said I did
20:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you acted like you did above
20:20:05 <ehird> I have something about you being a whiny bitch for hours because you chose a distro that you said you wanted to just work and complain when you fiddle with shit and expect that from everything in direct contradiction
20:21:13 <AnMaster> err "complain when you fiddle with shit and expect that from everything in direct contradiction"
20:21:27 <AnMaster> I complain that the new gdm is much dumbed down
20:21:42 <ais523> I actually really like it, apart from the user list
20:21:55 <ehird> You said you wanted something that "just worked" instead of fiddling about, and that's why you picked Ubuntu. So you installed it and promptly fiddled with everything and continued doing so.
20:21:56 <ais523> things like having dropdowns rather than putting everything behind menus
20:22:14 <ehird> Now you're complaining that you can't keep doing this, thus exposing that no, you really don't just want something that just works.
20:22:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I still want to be able to at least select background and such. ...
20:22:23 <ehird> So stop complaining or switch to something fiddly.
20:22:32 <ehird> Go and whine on the bug tracker, then.
20:22:38 <zzo38> I don't like user list on logon, either. Although currently I don't have Linux, I still turned off the welcome menu and set it to not keep the last username, require CTRL+ALT+DELETE, and a few oter things
20:22:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I subscribed to an open bug about it
20:22:47 <ehird> You complain about me complaining about software here instead of to the software authors; at least I don't repeat it for hours.
20:22:54 <AnMaster> one of about, uh, 500 or so subscribing users
20:22:56 <zzo38> Anyone who has Windows but prefers this way must have done so
20:23:14 <ehird> That's like 90% of Ubuntu users.
20:23:27 <AnMaster> ehird, considering the majority doesn't report bugs or don't have accounts or such.
20:23:30 <ehird> It's not like malcontents are the type to subscribe and users who only have a mild preference wouldn't generally bother.
20:23:48 <AnMaster> "and users who only have a mild preference wouldn't generally bother."
20:23:58 <AnMaster> that is what I said on the line above partly
20:24:37 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I fail to see why locking screen with kdm would be an issue. locking screen in KDE when using gdm works
20:24:44 <ais523> umm, require control-alt-delete on login? for Linux?
20:24:51 <ehird> zzo38 uses Windows.
20:25:00 <ehird> because he hasn't got around to writing his entirely own distro with his own everything yet.
20:25:43 <AnMaster> yay found a solution for screen locking. xlock
20:25:44 <zzo38> The reason I don't use Linux is because I already have Windows, once I get a new computer or this Windows stops or whatever, I will use Linux next instead
20:25:50 <AnMaster> now to integrate it with stuff
20:26:01 <AnMaster> ais523, that effectively kills X though
20:27:05 <ehird> http://tools.suckless.org/slock
20:27:07 <ehird> For screen locking.
20:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, like, screen is auto locked when you close lid
20:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the feature I want of screen locking. Locking for close lid, suspend to disk/ram
20:28:13 <AnMaster> (yeah closing lid *does* suspend to ram the way I set it up
20:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird, and still use kdm not gdm
20:29:05 <ehird> I linked you to a screen locker, I'm not interested in hearing your numerous demands with the implicit and false implication that it cannot do those things.
20:29:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it needs to be hooked up to acpid or such then
20:30:15 <ehird> Incidentally, XLock considered harmful: http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/versus-xlock.html
20:30:26 <ehird> Ignore the parts about the screensaver prts, naturally.
20:32:48 <AnMaster> slock is a simple screen locker utility for X,
20:33:40 <ehird> "I can't press all the fun buttons! How on earth will I display the password asterisks in 72-point Impact now! THIS SOFTWARE SUCKS! It doesn't satisfy my control OCD. Add new bloat in it, quick, just so I can change how the bloat operates!"
20:34:09 <AnMaster> just found the disagreement on options a bit funny
20:34:14 <ehird> -v isn't an option
20:34:19 <ehird> it doesn't change how the software works
20:34:23 <ehird> (sorry; I misunderstood your comment.)
20:34:27 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but it said options, not flags.
20:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, usually they are the same in man pages
20:34:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and -v does change the way it works
20:35:08 <AnMaster> instead of locking the screen it prints out version and copyright
20:35:16 <ehird> It doesn't change the way it locks the screen; it isn't an option about locking the screen.
20:35:27 <ehird> It's a meta-option, so to speak; it's at the level of the application binary, rather than its inner function.
20:35:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it changes it to *not* lock the screen
20:35:33 <ehird> Admittedly the man page might just be a typo.
20:35:43 <AnMaster> ehird, the man page was made by debian btw
20:36:00 <ehird> Oh. Well that'd explain it.
20:36:16 <ehird> I wouldn't think it actually needs a manpage but there youg o.
20:36:48 <AnMaster> ehird, debian is rather fanatic about that
20:37:04 <ehird> Yes; if only they were any good at writing manpages.
20:39:14 <ehird> Gah, why isn't there a mount you can do in userspace just on things you own.
20:39:44 <ehird> So I could do $ mkdir blah; usmount -o loop -t ext2 fs blah
20:39:53 <ehird> I guess I could write usmount as a setuid thing.
20:41:19 <ehird> No, a regular full-blooded mount, with the files owned by the user.
20:41:33 <ehird> But the destination directory, and source device/files, must be accessible by the user.
20:41:43 <ehird> So, pretty much just for loopbacks.
20:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it would need to make sure options like nodev,nosuid and such are passed too
20:42:02 <ehird> /linuxrc a symlink to /bin/busybox; queer.
20:42:16 <AnMaster> ehird, if that is an initrd: why
20:42:24 * AnMaster thought initramfs were used since ages
20:42:34 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure initrd never was ext2
20:42:38 <ehird> I'm looking at the stage1 stali rootfs.
20:42:53 <AnMaster> and /linuxrc is for initrd unless I misremember
20:43:07 <ehird> So it's for initrd, then.
20:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, initrd is more complex from a kernel point of view. Since the kernel itself has to start /sbin/init after the /linuxrc process exits. With initramfs the initial process (/init unless I misremember) never exits but should end up executing the real init at the end
20:44:31 <ehird> That's a minor detail; initramfs is, I belieeve, more cmoplex than initrd in itself.
20:44:43 <ehird> Anyway, eventually I believe they'll have enither.
20:44:48 <ehird> My distro certainly won't.
20:44:52 <ehird> Writing my own init will be fun.
20:45:06 <ehird> Even the uber-minimal BSD-style ones (like BusyBox's which doesn't even support runlevels) use inittabs and stuff.
20:45:21 <ehird> Mine will be awesome and use shell scripts only! Mwahaha.
20:45:25 <ehird> AnMaster: so the question is, why symlink it to busybox?
20:45:32 <ehird> Maybe busybox has a linuxrc command
20:45:39 <ehird> I was thinking it'd start a shell or whatever
20:45:46 <ehird> Maybe it treats linuxrc as init
20:45:49 <ehird> and starts busybox init
20:46:08 <AnMaster> ehird, initramfs are gziped cpio archives. initrds are gziped file system images
20:46:34 <ehird> Are you sure that linuxrc is initrd?
20:46:44 <ehird> Pretty sure it's just an old name for the init process thingy.
20:46:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you sure that it isn't that initrd starts via linuxrc?
20:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have expected /linuxrc to be a shell script
20:47:06 <ehird> I wouldn't; it wasn't on my fucked up Debian netbook thing.
20:47:08 <AnMaster> "Once the initial root file system is up, the kernel executes /linuxrc as its first process. When it exits, the kernel assumes that the real root file system has been mounted and executes "/sbin/init" to begin the normal user-space boot process."
20:47:50 <AnMaster> debian netbook? Oh the one where you were dumped into root login?
20:52:20 <ehird> Incidentally, configuring a kernel is tiring.
20:52:35 <ehird> It's hard to set up a good environment to bootstrap a distro...
20:52:46 <AnMaster> ehird, first one on a given hardware yes. After that you can just do make oldconfig to check for changes usually
20:52:48 <ehird> I wonder if I could write an init and drop it in my Arch fs and have it wor
20:53:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not configuring for specific hardware, it's for my distro.
20:53:08 <AnMaster> and the occasional make menuconfig when you need to change some specific setting
20:53:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, general. Most as m then?
20:56:27 <ehird> AnMaster: No modules.
20:56:45 <AnMaster> so then all drivers are built in
20:56:51 <ehird> Not all, just a small amount.
20:57:10 <ehird> No it isn't, there's going to be barely anything in there.
20:57:17 <ehird> It'll be smaller than any kernel you're running, almost certainly.
20:57:34 <ehird> For instance, none of the big ELF code... just uber-simple a.out. That's a pretty big drop right there.
20:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, probably. But that means it will be limited to a few hardware options
20:57:52 <ehird> No support for 83429239487234 filesystems... just JFS (the main filesystem), FAT, ext and a few others.
20:57:56 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I'm going generic.
20:58:04 <ehird> The main non-generic hardware driver you need is for graphics.
20:58:08 <ehird> So I'll have packages for that.
20:58:15 <ehird> kernel-nvidia, kernel-radeonhd, etc.
20:58:37 <ehird> AnMaster: SATA I'll probably include the drivers that do best with the most common hardware.
20:58:44 * AnMaster needs the VIA SATA stuff for example on his desktop. And AHCI on the laptop.
20:59:04 <ehird> It won't be very hard to add your own, since the build environment stuff will be easily downloadable so it's just a quick menuconfig and then using my mkfile to build the package.
20:59:08 <ehird> But I'll include a few.
20:59:22 <ehird> I estimate the kernel will be something like 5 MiB.
21:00:17 <ehird> My Arch kernel here is 601 KiB + 1.8 MiB
21:00:22 <ehird> (kernel26.img and vmlinuz26)
21:00:36 <AnMaster> ehird, arch does use modules though
21:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, also with modules built in you won't need any initrd
21:00:48 <ehird> I was giving a lot of credence to my major minimalist powers.
21:00:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Yep, I won't have any
21:00:58 <AnMaster> like on my desktop. No initrd there
21:01:09 <AnMaster> ehird, unless you want harddisk encryption or lvm or such
21:01:25 <ehird> I might include disk encryption.
21:01:41 <ehird> I might have a tool to compile and install a kernel with predefined configurations.
21:02:15 <ehird> # mkkernel encryption radeonhd
21:02:30 <ehird> And that'll add a package to your system called kernel-encryption-radeonhd.
21:02:33 <ehird> (Sorted alphabetically.)
21:02:43 <ehird> And become the kernel.
21:03:05 <ehird> Basically like Gentoo's USE flags, but on a much smaller scale and just for the kernel.
21:03:37 <ehird> I don't plan to support too much, though; LVM is quite unlikely.
21:03:44 <ehird> Especially since you can't shrink JFS anyway.
21:03:54 <ehird> (Which is a shame, but I haven't found something as good as JFS in other areas.)
21:03:59 <AnMaster> ehird, encryption of / does however require an initrd/initramfs
21:04:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Or a separate boot partition.
21:04:20 <AnMaster> ehird, _and_ a separate boot partition
21:04:32 <ehird> I can probably make a tiny tiny stub initramfs.
21:04:37 <AnMaster> ehird, after all, the boot loader has to be able to load the initrd from somewhere
21:05:30 <AnMaster> or you could have a user space /boot/decrypt-and-init and then have /boot as the original root fs and do some strange mount tricks... Oh and you would need to use init=/decrypt-and-init on the kernel command line
21:05:30 <ehird> Anyway, for a stock configuration, including X11 and window manager startup (login skipped; window manager will probably be dwm, so, minimalist), as soon as lilo hands over to the kernel, I expect to be able to finish boot in 2 seconds.
21:05:42 <AnMaster> (initrd is a less hackish solution then)
21:05:48 <ehird> On an SSD? Let's say 1.6 seconds.
21:06:05 <ehird> AnMaster: initrd is ext2 only, though, isn't it? Does it work if just the boot partition is ext2 only, I wonder?
21:06:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? initrd is an ext2 file system image that is gzip compressed
21:06:37 <ehird> Right, that's what I meant.
21:06:44 <AnMaster> as for /boot, it could be some other fs supported by the boot loader
21:06:45 <ehird> You can read the initrd from a JFS partition, yes?
21:06:53 <ehird> lilo supports JFS, which is nice.
21:07:31 <AnMaster> ehird, about that "boot to other OS". grub-reboot maybe?
21:07:55 <ehird> Probably. Looks quite new, anyway.
21:08:04 <ehird> I believe lilo has had it for a decade or whatever.
21:08:19 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you know that karmic is using grub2 by default?
21:08:39 <ehird> Following Debian, presumably.
21:08:41 -!- fax has left (?).
21:08:56 <AnMaster> ehird, opinions on "Ubuntu One"?
21:09:12 <ehird> Ubuntu One isn't as good as Dropbox, and FUCK THEM for using the Ubuntu name.
21:09:33 <AnMaster> ehird, about from the dropbox bit (which I never tried): agreed
21:09:38 <ehird> Dropbox, for instance, has the feature "can access your files on obscure OSs like Windows and OS X".
21:10:00 <ehird> Ubuntu One is just a ripoff of Dropbox with less features and without supporting other OSs.
21:10:10 <AnMaster> ehird, how much space do you get with dropbox no cost version or such?
21:10:22 <ehird> Same as Ubuntu One.
21:10:31 <ehird> If you invite other people, set up other machines, blah blah blah, Dropbox rewards you with some more.
21:10:36 <ehird> Can get almost 3 GiB or something that way.
21:10:40 <ehird> You know, if you're a huge cheapskate.
21:10:43 <ais523> I hate that sort of referral scheme, it makes me avoid a company
21:10:49 <ais523> because, it means I can't trust peer reviews of the company
21:10:55 <ais523> if people are bribed to say good things about it
21:11:00 <ais523> then, I can't trust them as much
21:11:01 <ehird> Only if you think your friends are really, really scammy
21:11:18 <ehird> People who aren't massive assholes go "Hey, if you sign up for this I get some more blah"
21:11:36 <ehird> If it's on a website or whatever, just look to see if it's a referral link and if so ignoore the review.
21:11:56 <ehird> Anyway, it's not just referring (and it only lets you refer a few, not continuously).
21:12:10 <ehird> There's other things like "put our client on your other machines" blah blah. It's not worth the effort though.
21:12:27 <AnMaster> ehird, on other machines? Like all your computers?
21:12:34 <ehird> As many as you want.
21:12:50 <ehird> Incidentally, lilo has more eyecandy than GRUB 1, I think.
21:12:54 <AnMaster> well. If I used such a service I would likely want it on all of mine
21:13:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that feels sooo backwards XD
21:13:09 <ehird> You can set up a menu grid instead of a list so you can use the bitmap background to have a fancy graphical menu.
21:13:14 <AnMaster> so grub1 is the minimalist option?
21:13:19 <ehird> Position your own countdown timer. etc.
21:13:22 <ehird> AnMaster: No, lilo is smaller.
21:13:28 <ehird> It just does it all with less code.
21:13:39 <ehird> Besides, none of this stuff gets added to your MBR unless you enable it.
21:14:30 <ehird> Incidentally, lilo doesn't use the "boot: " interface by default; it uses a GRUB-style menu.
21:14:54 <ehird> I think GRUB 1 can do higher-resolution things, though; lilo only supports a paltry 640x480x8 bitmap!
21:14:54 <AnMaster> the "don't have to remember to rerun the lilo command after a kernel update" bit and "option to edit the commend line" bit are important to me
21:15:07 <AnMaster> ehird, what about password protection for booting recovery kernel?
21:15:14 <ehird> AnMaster: The former will be handled by my distro, the latter, I believe, you can just enter into the boot: prompt
21:15:15 <AnMaster> like the one with init=/bin/busybox
21:15:20 <ehird> Like boot: and enterr a lilo line. Whatever.
21:15:24 <ehird> Doesn't bother me, so I don't care.
21:15:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I think it has password protection.
21:15:55 <ehird> "menu-scheme=Wm intense white on magenta"
21:15:59 <ehird> I think I will pass on that colour scheme
21:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, password required to edit the boot line is all I want.
21:16:20 <ehird> Upper case for intense.
21:16:52 <ehird> AnMaster: You can do password=
21:17:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I always wondered. Why does CMYK has Y for black
21:17:10 <ehird> It has K for black
21:17:16 <ehird> And because B is blue
21:17:21 <fizzie> "The “K” in CMYK stands for key since in four-color printing cyan, magenta, and yellow printing plates are carefully keyed or aligned with the key of the black key plate. Some sources suggest that the “K” in CMYK comes from the last letter in "black" and was chosen because B already means blue.[1][2] However, this explanation, though plausible and useful as a mnemonic, is likely inaccurate, the speculative invention of authors unfamiliar with traditio
21:17:21 <fizzie> nal printing technology."
21:17:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do they suggest instead?
21:17:51 <ehird> The “K” in CMYK stands for key since in four-color printing cyan, magenta, and yellow printing plates are carefully keyed or aligned with the key of the black key plate.
21:17:54 <ehird> Like it, you know, said.
21:17:54 <fizzie> Key, like it says there.
21:18:12 <ehird> I wonder why people like their init to spew out a ton of crap.
21:18:27 <ehird> Is it because they have so much crap that they like to see how far along their ages-long boot is?
21:18:38 <fizzie> ehird: "Watching shit scroll by for hours makes me a Linux expert overnight."
21:18:39 <ehird> Personally I'd only like to be bothered when something went wrong.
21:18:48 <ehird> fizzie: Yep, but every distro seems to do it
21:18:48 <AnMaster> ehird, when things go wrong you can easily see where?
21:18:51 <ehird> Apart from those newfangled graphical boots
21:19:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Have those kids never heard of `if ! blah; then echo OMG BLAH FAILED; fi`?
21:19:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what if the kernel freezes early on in some unexpected way
21:19:28 <ais523> it's probably so that if the kernel locks hard, you can see what the last successful operation was
21:19:31 <AnMaster> thus, what was the last line before that printed
21:19:33 <ais523> and guess what operation failed as a result
21:19:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking about in init
21:19:45 <ehird> By that point a fucked-up kernel lockup is probably quite unlikely
21:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, oh it is just colourful messages here
21:19:52 <ehird> And if it does, good luck debugging it!
21:20:03 <ehird> It's pretty pointless
21:20:12 <AnMaster> ehird, the colours are pretty?
21:20:28 <ehird> Set a pretty image as your desktop so the 2-second boot gets to it :-P
21:20:37 <ehird> You could even animate it.
21:20:42 <AnMaster> ehird, with a 2 second boot it would be fairly pointless
21:20:51 <ehird> And as far as kernel lockups go...
21:20:59 <ehird> Just add it as a boot option.
21:21:15 <ehird> You could even add "Awesomedistro (debug kernel lockup)" or whatever as a lilo entry.
21:21:21 <AnMaster> ehird, is there anything wrong with those early kernel messages being printed though?
21:21:23 <fizzie> Make your init a Mandelbrot zoomer, advances a bit every time something happens. You can then tell from the shape where it hangs up if something goes wrong.
21:21:25 <ehird> It's just superfluous
21:21:38 <ehird> It takes up time and effort that could be spent speeding up the boot
21:21:47 <ehird> Literally time; those prints are so expensive. :P
21:21:56 <ehird> But seriously, it's just —
21:22:06 <ehird> I was just asking if there's a justifiable point apart from watching shit scroll by.
21:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you want just a single like like: "Loading <distroname>...."
21:22:21 <ehird> Since the only reason is an early kernel hangup, and you can easily just force the kernel to spew a lot, I guess I'll disable it.
21:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Maybe a few more.
21:22:42 <AnMaster> ehird, oh like "we go to init" "starting GUI"?
21:23:17 <AnMaster> Yay! time for init and we are still alive!
21:23:18 <ehird> I had written that as my first!
21:23:47 <AnMaster> Phew, we almost made it, just the GUI left. Pray for X working well for once!
21:23:56 <ehird> "Oh god, I'm bleeding, FUCK, fuck, get me to a doctor... my la-ast wish... is... to... start X11... farew-well... know me as...b-boot p-p... proc-cess..HYUAAAAAAAAAAAGhhgj"
21:24:26 <ehird> printk("Printing this message...\n");
21:24:35 <AnMaster> or "Starting X. Good luck. (You will need it!)"
21:25:15 <ehird> "You've started X11 successfully 10 times in a row. As a precaution, I will drop you to a single-user shell to fix the problems you will have this time."
21:25:46 <ehird> New device detected since last boot. Please remove it and reboot.
21:26:34 <ehird> fizzie: I like that mandelbrot init idea, by the way
21:26:47 <AnMaster> "Lucky it isn't Windows eh? They would would have had to re-activate"
21:27:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey! Just use Linux Genuine Advantage.
21:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, btw. if you are going to do hardware detection it will slow you down
21:27:46 <ehird> I'll probably do some cursory detection, but nothing much.
21:27:50 * ehird wonders how he could do dependency-based asynchronous init with just an rc script
21:28:02 <ehird> Maybe I'll load all the start scripts at once
21:28:09 <ehird> and the depending scripts just check environment variables
21:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you need a service supervisor though
21:28:31 <AnMaster> and using a script for that would be bloated I suspect
21:28:35 <ehird> A vague term; can you clarify just so we're on the same page?
21:29:20 <AnMaster> ehird, something to try to restart critical services if they go down (and give up after some fixed number of retries in a short time period)
21:29:39 <AnMaster> ehird, like upstart does. Or sysvinit does
21:29:48 <ehird> I don't think BSD inits do that
21:29:58 <AnMaster> or even daemontools (I remember reading someone managed to use daemontools for init!)
21:30:01 <ehird> besides, it can't be very critical if you can run enough code to restart them
21:30:05 <ehird> AnMaster: daemontools is an init replacement...
21:30:08 <ehird> (among other things)
21:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, usually it isn't used as that though
21:30:22 <ehird> It's meant to be,t hough
21:30:35 <ehird> Incidentally, here's my wonderful shutdown command:
21:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, and it tells services to shut down cleanly then?
21:31:08 <ehird> Runs /etc/rc.stop and then halts
21:31:26 <AnMaster> ehird, and rc.stop sends SIGTERM and such to processes needing it?
21:31:35 <AnMaster> ehird, what about kexec? Oh wait I guess not
21:32:06 <ehird> Yeah; runs all the shutdown-service things, kills every process other than the ones needed to do this, waits until they all respond, kill -9s the rest, and turns ogg
21:32:23 <ehird> the nautilus integration does, though
21:32:28 <ehird> admittedly at the moment it is the only client
21:32:32 <ehird> the protocol is open though
21:32:32 <AnMaster> ehird, can't it just use fuse or such
21:32:40 <ehird> You can use the folder as-is
21:32:53 <AnMaster> because dropbox is like useless to me if I can't use it on my headless computers too
21:32:54 <ehird> (It doesn't use FUSE) it's synchronization
21:32:57 <ehird> so it needs to be on disk
21:33:13 <AnMaster> ehird, there goes the idea of *extra* storage space :P
21:33:25 <ehird> Just disable dropboxd and remove the directory after syncing :P
21:33:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, process 1 will be the thing that does the actual halting
21:33:51 <ehird> After /etc/rc.stop closes it'll have kill -9'd everything else so it'll just be process 1 and whatever the kernel's running chilling about
21:33:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I believe that is already the case
21:34:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no kexec support I assume?
21:34:52 <ehird> AnMaster: what signal do you think I should use that instead of halting reboots?
21:35:07 <ehird> actually, I'm unsure whether shutting down should be QUIT or TERM
21:35:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what about suspend to ram/disk?
21:35:22 <ehird> I'm leaning towards quit because # kill 1 working without warning seems dangerous
21:35:30 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:35:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably USR1 and USR2
21:35:50 <ehird> with a shell script that does that called suspend_ram or something
21:35:55 <ais523> ehird: SIGQUIT is supposed to create core dumps
21:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what about SIGVTALRM? Or SIGRTMAX
21:35:57 <ehird> (USR1 for RAM, USR2 for disk)
21:36:00 <ais523> or at least, does on most Unices
21:36:04 <ehird> ais523: ah, wasn't aware
21:36:16 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh idea for restart... SIGCONT
21:36:20 <ais523> you do it with C-\ if a program isn't responding to C-c
21:36:30 <AnMaster> ehird, "continue after reboot"
21:36:32 <ais523> or to interrupt a program to get a core dump
21:36:37 <ehird> AnMaster: that'd be suspend to disk + reboot
21:36:47 <AnMaster> ehird, however, normally SIGCONT is for the bg/fg commands
21:36:55 <ehird> I should let you do "fg 1"
21:36:59 <ehird> and press ^C to shut down
21:37:06 <AnMaster> I don't think you can intercept SIGCONT in fact
21:37:22 <ehird> I meant specialcase it
21:37:30 <ais523> you can handle SIGCONT
21:37:31 <AnMaster> fg is a shell thingy and related to shell job control
21:37:35 <ais523> the stuff happens after you're continued
21:37:43 <ais523> obviously, you have to be running in order to handle it
21:37:48 <AnMaster> ais523, when does SIGSTOP happen?
21:38:00 <ais523> you can handle SIGTSTP, though
21:38:05 <ais523> which is generated by C-z
21:38:12 <ehird> # kill -9 1 will force a hard shutdown, I think.
21:38:19 <ehird> without any process killing or anything
21:38:20 <AnMaster> ais523, sure SIGSTOP is NOT Ctrl-Z?
21:38:29 <ais523> AnMaster: Ctrl-Z generates SIGTSTP
21:38:31 <ehird> you know, when you're too lazy to hold down the power button
21:38:35 <ais523> which does the same as SIGSTOP by default
21:38:40 <ais523> but which /can/ be handled or interrupted
21:38:48 <ais523> (whereas SIGSTOP can't be)
21:38:55 <ais523> well, handled or masked
21:39:07 <ehird> SIGWINCH discard signal Window size change
21:39:13 <ehird> this is clearly for "change framebuffer console resolution"
21:39:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ... you only hold down power button when you can't do it the normal way :P
21:39:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Or if you're lazy.
21:39:40 <ehird> Admittedly it doesn't matter if a regular shutdown only takes, like, a second.
21:39:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. But well that joke is rather twisted
21:40:00 <AnMaster> ehird, and holding down power button takes like 10 seconds on my computer
21:40:01 <ehird> Assume some bloated Ubuntu thingy that takes 30 seconds to shutdown :P
21:40:06 <ehird> 20 SECONDS ARE PRECIOUS
21:40:15 <ais523> SIGWINCH is for console apps
21:40:21 <ehird> ais523: I'm joking, man :|
21:40:21 <ais523> they get it if someone resizes the window they're running in
21:40:31 <ais523> it doesn't have an argument to say the new size
21:40:34 <ais523> it's just a notification
21:40:35 <ehird> doesn't kill refuse to send signals to process 1?
21:40:47 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:41:27 <ais523> <man kill> This command meets appropriate standards.
21:41:35 <ais523> umm, normally the man pages say /which/ standards
21:42:16 <AnMaster> ais523, the table in that man page is fucked up
21:42:16 <fizzie> The only signals that can be sent to process ID 1, the init process, are those for which init has explicitly installed signal handlers. This is done to assure the system is not brought down accidentally.
21:42:49 <AnMaster> 0 0 n/a exit code indicates if a signal may be sent
21:43:03 <AnMaster> there were multiple blank lines
21:43:06 -!- ehird has joined.
21:43:21 <ehird> launchd, to be precise
21:43:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> doesn't kill refuse to send signals to process 1?
21:43:23 <AnMaster> * ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:43:32 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The only signals that can be sent to process ID 1, the init process, are those for which init has explicitly installed signal handlers. This is done to assure the system is not brought down accidentally.
21:43:39 <AnMaster> ehird, there it is explained ^
21:43:40 <ehird> it overlaid the shutdown spinner (circling circle thing) over my desktop which froze
21:43:51 <ehird> had my same idea <3
21:44:13 <ais523> what signal did you kill init /with/?
21:44:42 <ais523> ehird: upstart isn't init either
21:44:46 <ehird> = init, cron, inetd, etc etc etc
21:44:47 <ais523> but it's called init in the process table
21:44:50 <ehird> yes, but upstart is distinct
21:44:53 <ehird> and launchd is called launchd in the table
21:44:58 <ehird> (upstart iis distinct from cron etc atm)
21:45:22 <ehird> tbh writing an init isn't hard
21:45:31 <ehird> everything's set up and cushy
21:45:34 <fizzie> It is distinct from cron so far, though:
21:45:36 <fizzie> "Will Upstart replace cron, atd or anacron?
21:45:36 <fizzie> Yes. A planned feature for Upstart is the ability to generate events at a particular scheduled time, regular scheduled time or particular timed intervals."
21:45:48 <fizzie> But they're not planning on adding inetd bits into it.
21:46:02 <fizzie> Well, it says "Maybe" there.
21:46:25 <AnMaster> and they suggest that dbus is trying to replace init
21:46:30 <ehird> who even uses cron without meaning anacron?
21:46:50 <ehird> "do this thing at this time but if you can't GIVE UP COMPLETELY"
21:46:57 <ehird> there aren't many operations that make sense there
21:47:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway why does ubuntu start both cron and anacron
21:47:41 <ehird> hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacron#Drawbacks okay that's pretty bad
21:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: see my link
21:47:50 <ehird> seems like anacron is very limited
21:48:22 <ehird> I wonder if it's the responsibility of the shutdown procedure to call sync(1)
21:48:30 <AnMaster> um I have tasks running every few hours
21:48:51 <ehird> "Anacron is not an attempt to make cron redundant. It cannot be used to schedule commands at intervals smaller than days"
21:48:53 <AnMaster> "anacron can only run tasks once a day (or less often such as weekly or monthly). In contrast, cron allows tasks to run as often as every minute (but does not guarantee their execution if the system goes down). In practice, this is not usually an issue, since it is rare to have a task that must be guaranteed to run more often than (at least) once a day"
21:48:57 <ehird> THAT'S WHAT I LINKED TO
21:49:05 <ehird> that's why ubuntu starts cron as well
21:49:15 <ehird> so why did you repeat my link
21:49:24 <AnMaster> and I was commenting upon a specific line
21:49:40 <pikhq> ... Anacron can only run tasks once a day?
21:49:54 <ehird> Every time Anacron is run, it reads a configuration file that specifies the jobs Anacron controls, and their periods in days. If a job wasn't executed in the last n days, where n is the period of that job, Anacron executes it. Anacron then records the date in a special timestamp file that it keeps for each job, so it can know when to run it again. When all the executed commands terminate, Anacron exits.
21:50:11 <ehird> i thought it just logged when it ran a regular cron command, and then if there are missing log entries, ran them then and logged it
21:50:17 <ehird> that design is stupid
21:51:17 <ehird> crontabs suck though
21:51:20 <pikhq> Vixie cron is nice in that it doesn't do anything particularly dumb.
21:51:30 <pikhq> Well, given the constraints of crontab format, that is.
21:51:59 <ehird> "Remember me from months ago? You've forgotten what I look like, don't I? BETTER GOOGLE FOR IT"
21:52:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> crontabs suck though <-- how so?
21:52:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: The specific file format is rather arcane and hard to remember.
21:52:35 <pikhq> A comment on top shouldn't be needed to remember the format.
21:52:56 <AnMaster> rather than some multi-line bind style config
21:53:00 <pikhq> The /etc/passwd file suffers from the same issue, but that at least isn't something that non-programs need to mess with.
21:53:11 <ehird> I can't really get rid of crontab, but I can get rid of /etc/fstab
21:53:30 <AnMaster> what the hell is wrong with fstab
21:53:33 <pikhq> By rewriting mount a bit, I presume.
21:53:38 <ehird> Exactly the same that's wrong with crontab
21:53:56 <pikhq> And being glad that very few things interact *directly* with fstab.
21:53:59 <AnMaster> device mountpoint fs options dump pass
21:54:07 <ehird> The main use of fstab is just to mount things on boot, so guess what that'll become?
21:54:17 <ehird> Lines in a shell script in /etc/rc.d calling mount(1).
21:54:30 <ehird> I have some thoughts for handling the "mount /dev/foo" case, but I have to mull on them.
21:54:35 <ehird> AnMaster: About the same, really.
21:54:39 <ehird> Maybe a few more characters. Doesn't matter.
21:54:41 <pikhq> ehird: Fuse, perhaps?
21:54:42 <ehird> It's significantly simpler.
21:54:55 <ehird> pikhq: How does FUSE help there?
21:55:06 <pikhq> You can mount as a normal user with FUSE.
21:55:13 <ehird> Oh, that's not what I meant
21:55:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you use fuse to create a virtual /media directory!
21:55:23 <AnMaster> with auto adding stuff according to an XML config
21:55:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: AAAAAGH.
21:55:29 <ehird> pikhq: I meant mount knowing where to mount devices
21:55:32 <ehird> and their FS type, etc
21:55:41 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, that. Yeah.
21:55:58 <ehird> Also, any support for FUSE I have will probably be via translation to 9P.
21:56:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, gnome vfs seems like that to me
21:56:12 <ehird> I'll reuse the FUSE library, and translate however it talks to the kernel module into 9P.
21:56:31 <pikhq> Probably already been done. If not, it should be easy to do.
21:56:44 <pikhq> The FUSE library supports multiple kernels by now.
21:56:51 <ehird> Hopefully the kernel has good 9P support, because the only other options use FUSE.
21:57:03 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I don't think llvm/clang supports a.out
21:57:11 <AnMaster> and gcc itself probably doesn't
21:57:17 <ehird> gcc did until a recent 4.x version
21:57:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: LLVM should at least be easy to retarget.
21:57:30 <pikhq> (being designed with that in mind and all.)
21:57:33 <ehird> wrt compiling gcc into an a.out
21:57:44 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure. Just sounds like something I heard someone mention once
21:58:04 <ehird> At least my Arch /etc/fstab is nicely simple
21:58:14 <ehird> The main line is just "/dev/sda1 / jfs defaults 0 1"
21:58:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ah but what if other disks are plugged in!
21:58:38 <ehird> Then let's just hope they become /etc/sdb.
21:58:59 <ehird> I'm not using udev, so hopefully I can find a quite stable devfs.
21:59:43 <AnMaster> ehird, devfs is no longer supported with recent kernels
22:00:00 <ehird> Then maybe I'll use static.
22:01:57 <ehird> When looking around the kernel config options I had a horrible dilemma.
22:02:17 <ehird> Heap randomisation
22:02:17 <ehird> Cons: Makes kernel bigger, BREAKS LIBC5 BINARIES
22:03:03 <pikhq> Libc5? Meh, who needs it?
22:03:19 <ehird> But, static binaries should work for decades!
22:03:41 <pikhq> On a somewhat more serious note, I do have at least one libc5 binary.
22:04:02 <ehird> Anyway, heap randomisation as a security feature made me think of OpenBSD almost instantly.
22:04:08 <ehird> It's the kind of thing they'd do, isn't it...
22:04:16 <pikhq> Only Playstation 1 emulator I could get to work used Libc5. And was a binary.
22:04:20 <ehird> Hmm, it also breaks position dependent code, doesn't it :P
22:04:21 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, they do that.
22:04:38 <ehird> Instead of the first five fields, one of eight special strings may
22:04:40 <ehird> @reboot Run once, at startup.
22:04:49 <pikhq> Also, you can do position-independent staticly linked binaries. ;p
22:05:02 <ehird> HAY UNPRIVILEGED USER! I'M TOTALLY INIT
22:05:05 <ehird> Use meeeeeeeeeeeeeee
22:12:45 -!- coppro has joined.
22:13:33 <ehird> Does at(1) run the commands at the time you specify, or could it be some minutes late?
22:15:49 <ais523> not sure, at's been broken for months on ubuntu
22:16:46 <ehird> I'm wondering how to do a good clock in dwm; xsetroot -name foo changes the top-right text
22:17:04 <ehird> and I want to update it on the 0th second of every minute (give or take some seconds) without using CPU
22:18:00 <SimonRC> # A still more glorious dawn awaits: not sunrise, but a galaxyrise. A morning filled with 400 billion suns; the rising of the Milky Way. # -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
22:18:22 <ehird> I linked that like a month ago
22:18:25 <AnMaster> <pikhq> On a somewhat more serious note, I do have at least one libc5 binary. <-- what huh?
22:18:31 <ehird> He explains a few lines down.
22:18:39 <ehird> I wonder what libc4 is like.
22:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I do your style of log reading :P
22:18:58 <ehird> It's remarkably rewarding!
22:19:03 <ehird> Like everyone has the exact same questions as you.
22:19:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> Hmm, it also breaks position dependent code, doesn't it :P <-- um no?
22:19:34 <AnMaster> that would be data/code segment randomisation
22:19:40 <SimonRC> hmm ... this evening; that video does not make me start crying
22:19:57 <ehird> I forgot just how hardcore the http://mastodon.biz/ author is
22:20:05 <ehird> "I'm trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28"
22:20:10 <ehird> you have to be pretty badass to even consider thtat
22:20:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> HAY UNPRIVILEGED USER! I'M TOTALLY INIT <-- the @reboot thing? Yes very useful. I use it to start some irc bots for example
22:20:39 <ehird> Why not just have ~/.rc.start or something
22:20:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yet another service to read that?
22:20:57 * ais523 wonders if fakeroot includes faking reboots, etc
22:21:03 <ehird> No, just have /etc/rc.start do it
22:21:06 <pikhq> Because Unix was designed and then crap got shoveled on.
22:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and suing to each user? Hm
22:21:19 <pikhq> Making an OS that works but doesn't know what consistency is.
22:21:25 <AnMaster> yet another code point that has to be audited for that
22:21:25 <ehird> It just doesn't seem like the kind of thing cron should do to me
22:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, I trust my init scripts more than cron
22:21:36 <pikhq> (better than the Windows solution of "Fuck design". :P)
22:21:41 <ehird> Especially since it'd just be a few lines
22:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, cron already done this for ages
22:21:53 <ehird> I don't care, it's still something you "have to audit"
22:22:01 <ehird> @reboot shouldn't be in cron, it's an init task
22:22:48 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> # A still more glorious dawn awaits: not sunrise, but a galaxyrise. A morning filled with 400 billion suns; the rising of the Milky Way. # -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc <-- argh now I have that tune on my head again
22:22:51 <SimonRC> ehird: I recall that Apple have a program that unifies the run-at-boot things and cron
22:23:04 <ehird> And it inexplicably does inetd
22:23:18 <ehird> plists are XML nowadays, unfortunately.
22:23:24 <ehird> Or the binary format.
22:23:26 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? they changed format?
22:23:36 <ehird> It used to be a wonderful JSON-type dealie.
22:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure they were binary blobs yeah
22:24:34 <ehird> That's one of the new formats
22:24:38 <ehird> They used to be almost identical to JSON
22:24:40 <ehird> and it was lovely.
22:24:51 <pikhq> ehird: Ah, the days of a sane format for plist.
22:25:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well, tiger is the only OS X version I used
22:25:06 <ehird> When men were men, women were men and plists weren't XML.
22:25:10 <SimonRC> The thing about XML is that everywhere has libraries that do all the parsing for you.
22:25:19 <ehird> SimonRC: It is very dark.
22:25:21 <ehird> You are in #esoteric.
22:25:25 <ehird> You are about to defend XML.
22:25:28 <ehird> You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
22:25:30 <AnMaster> SimonRC, are you trying to defend... XML?
22:25:39 <SimonRC> I am saying it can be practical
22:25:47 <ehird> You are eaten by a Grue.
22:25:58 <SimonRC> OTOH, almost everywhere has JSON parsers too
22:26:02 <pikhq> SimonRC: The thing about XML is that it has no advantages over JSON and many disadvantages.
22:26:04 <ehird> >backtrack slightly
22:26:10 <ehird> The Grue fails to reverse entropy and you stay eatetn.
22:26:15 <pikhq> (for generic object serialisation, that is)
22:26:25 <pikhq> And XML is not designed at *all* for what it's generally used for.
22:26:34 * SimonRC tries to recalls what teh JSON equivalent of xpath is
22:26:35 <pikhq> It's meant to just do markup.
22:26:52 <ehird> And it's pretty bad at markup too
22:26:58 <ehird> AnMaster: HTML for object serialisation?
22:27:07 <AnMaster> ehird, oh hah I didn't even think about that
22:27:08 <pikhq> ehird: But it at least does the job without making me want to go and kill everyone.
22:27:09 <SimonRC> why is it people confuse an explanation with a justification?
22:27:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you are the nutter who even thought I could have meant that
22:27:31 <ehird> SimonRC: AVOIDING MIND INFECTION
22:27:39 <ehird> It's good to be a nutter!
22:27:56 <ehird> Incidentally, a good rule of thumb:
22:27:58 <AnMaster> SimonRC, what is xpath good for?
22:28:27 <AnMaster> as in, what does it do, that is useful and harder with other ways
22:28:41 <ehird> Your program is to serve the user. Everything they make with it is theirs, not yours. Therefore, all your formats must either be well-known (if you must be compatible with other tools without translating) or minimalist and plain text (or binary if you really must).
22:28:42 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpath This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
22:29:11 <ehird> Something like XML just takes the user's work away from them; it wraps their format in something they don't care about or want, and forces them to trawl through it to get their data out. In effect, the barrier to EXIT is high.
22:29:24 <ehird> So, don't use XML.
22:29:31 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not that, it's for traversing the tree.
22:29:39 <ehird> Think of it like CSS selectors
22:29:41 <ehird> but with worse syntacx
22:29:55 <ehird> It's not all that bad
22:29:56 <AnMaster> no simple code samples there on wikipedia
22:30:01 <SimonRC> there is internal data, which isn't for users, and there is external data, which the users requested be XML
22:30:14 <ehird> http://www.w3schools.com/XPath/xpath_syntax.asp
22:30:22 <ehird> but those examples are good
22:30:29 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:30:32 <ehird> SimonRC: By user, I mean people
22:30:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah because it is used as a db there?
22:30:53 <AnMaster> /bookstore/book[price>35.00] Selects all the book elements of the bookstore element that have a price element with a value greater than 35.00
22:30:58 <ehird> Want as in want as humans, not as in want for compatibility, or because of corporate bear-ocracy
22:30:59 <SimonRC> xpath is good for processing heirarchical data (the details of XML don't leak in much) the same way regexes are good for processing text
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22:31:16 <AnMaster> SELECT * from bootstore.book WHERE price > 35.00 ?
22:31:21 <AnMaster> something similar to that at least
22:31:28 <ehird> AnMaster: You could make filesystem paths into SQL too
22:31:30 <ehird> doesn't prove anythiing
22:31:58 <SimonRC> AnMaster: yeah, that is about it
22:32:07 <ehird> ah, awesome is indeed a fork of dwm
22:32:11 <AnMaster> /bookstore/book[price>35.00]/title <-- SELECT title FROM bootstore.book where price > 35.00 ?
22:32:33 <ehird> And its own multihead
22:32:42 <AnMaster> xft is nice. I mean, non-bitmapped fonts
22:32:44 <ehird> So basically they took dwm and fucked with it until it was bloated
22:32:52 <AnMaster> ehird, emwh I have no clue what it is
22:33:01 <ehird> AnMaster: For the list of workspaces (numbers), the []= diagarm of the current layout, the title bar, and status bar?
22:33:04 <AnMaster> and xcb is well, something we probably can't avoid even if we want
22:33:07 <ehird> It's just a few vetical pixels at the top.
22:33:17 <ehird> More like an ASCII icon tbh
22:33:23 <ehird> (title bar is global at top of screen)
22:33:35 <ehird> xcb is quite avoidable, use the xlib wrapper over it :-P
22:33:49 <fizzie> I like the "bloat" in the multihead sense; though admittedly dwm page says "NEW dwm creates a view for each Xinerama screen".
22:33:51 <ehird> AnMaster: XFCE seems to try and be Gnome without... well, Gnome.
22:34:03 <zzo38> Do you have a copy of this game on a VHS tape?
22:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, xlib is quite eww unless I misremember. But xcb might be worse.
22:34:13 <ehird> AnMaster: xcb is lower-level but slightly more sane
22:34:14 <pikhq> Xcb does seem like an improvement over Xlib for what X is commonly used for these days (hardly even touched by anyone other than toolkit authors).
22:34:18 <ehird> but xlib code is easier to understand
22:34:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think it (Xfce) works; for instance, I quickly get agitated by the lack of configurators for the system
22:34:31 <zzo38> I mean, the game, Super ASCII MZX Town Part II
22:34:38 <pikhq> Harder to use, but less crazy bizarre bugs.
22:34:43 <zzo38> Someone in the game asks for that copy
22:34:45 <ehird> It's inconsistent to have a GUI to configure the GUI but nothing else, UI-wise
22:34:49 <ehird> (understandable implementation-wise)
22:35:08 <ehird> And it seems to basically come down to GNOME with more settings, whereas GNOME's philosophy leads to less settings
22:35:11 <ehird> So the end result is quite odd
22:35:16 <SimonRC> anyone using Debain unstable at the moment?
22:35:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think it (Xfce) works; for instance, I quickly get agitated by the lack of configurators for the system <-- and you are minimalist!
22:35:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Confusion is not minimalist.
22:35:34 <pikhq> ehird: XFCE is also more lightweight while having more settings.
22:35:51 <SimonRC> 'cause they have a hosed keyboard config app and the upstream fix hasn't come down yet, and I can't downgrade
22:35:51 <ehird> There's no reason to have GUI configuration and system configuration separate; they're facets of the same thing.
22:36:02 <AnMaster> worth trying as replacement for KDE 3.5.10 on my gentoo box
22:36:03 <ehird> Anyway, dwm uber alles :P
22:36:25 <AnMaster> ehird, tried tiling and decided I didn't like it. Probably could get used to it
22:36:33 <ehird> Most tiling managers suck balls
22:36:35 <SimonRC> ehird: not a very unixy attitude
22:36:35 <ehird> Which did you try?
22:36:46 <ehird> SimonRC: It is, but I cba to explain
22:36:51 <SimonRC> depending on what you actually mean
22:36:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm awsome, xmonad and dwm iirc
22:37:12 <AnMaster> maybe slightly less than a year
22:37:13 <ehird> dwm is the only good one of those, because its layout is the right thing
22:37:21 <ehird> it has a main window, to the left
22:37:25 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc I found dwm most annoying of them
22:37:27 <ehird> and a stack of secondary windows to the right
22:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: The adjustment period is just a few minutes, just stop trying to fight the WM
22:37:36 <fizzie> Uh, that's awesome's default layout too.
22:37:45 <ehird> awesome sucks in other ways
22:37:53 <pikhq> I found the most irritating thing about xmonad was it's freaking crazy configuration scheme.
22:37:56 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yeah I tried ratpoison too.
22:38:03 <pikhq> And after that was its retarded default bindings.
22:38:05 <ehird> AnMaster: ratpoison is unusable
22:38:12 <ehird> it's tiling but it doesn't manage the windows for you!
22:38:17 <pikhq> (that conflict with *everything else*)
22:38:17 <ehird> so it's just a pointless waste of time
22:38:27 <ehird> AnMaster: One unique one to try might be wmii
22:38:36 <ehird> It's basically Plan 9's acme for window managers
22:38:57 <ehird> there's the little knob on the window you can drag to move across columns, resize, etc; you can stack windows so it's just title bars that collapse, it's also controllable by the keyboard
22:39:03 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. interesting. Me and acme never agreed with each other though
22:39:13 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not acme as far as mouse-only goes
22:39:17 <ehird> just as far as layout goes
22:39:25 <ehird> http://wmii.suckless.org/
22:39:30 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK].
22:39:32 <ehird> and it uses dmenu like dwm
22:39:41 <ehird> so spawning applications, etc is nice
22:40:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I like a desktop filled with icons though
22:40:19 <SimonRC> wait, people have visible desktop past all their windows?
22:40:21 <ehird> It's hard to stop liking gratuitous eye-candy
22:40:22 <AnMaster> stuff like C99.pdf POSIX.1-2008.pdf
22:40:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, atm I can see a bit of that
22:40:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you can still use a graphical file manager
22:40:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't use a file manager *except* for desktop
22:41:07 <ehird> I never use my desktop
22:41:07 <pikhq> Isn't that what a shell's for?
22:41:18 <AnMaster> "A Source Mage spell for the 20070516 wmii snapshot is available. As usual, just type
22:41:19 <ehird> I'd like a hybrid shell/file manager
22:41:32 <ehird> a graphical file viewer above it, I can double click folders to cd
22:41:38 <ehird> but keyboard always enters commands
22:41:45 <ehird> so I can stop doing ls all the time
22:41:47 <AnMaster> ehird, try sourcemage. Just for fun in a vm
22:41:54 <ehird> AnMaster: nooo thank-you
22:42:06 <SimonRC> ehird: how about keyboard to search the file list
22:42:19 <ehird> SimonRC: maybe tab completion will be done with the graphical list
22:42:41 <ehird> instead of below the command entry
22:42:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it is like LFS in a way. A great experience, but not something you would want to use every day. Quite like going to some far away country as a tourist I expect
22:42:49 <ehird> AnMaster: because the terminology is enough to put me off
22:42:51 <ehird> and it's source-based
22:43:02 <AnMaster> you wouldn't want to live in Egypt. But seeing the pyramids once. Fun
22:43:08 <SimonRC> the feature I would like in bash is the ability to type half a command, do something else, and come back, like you can in irssi
22:43:17 <AnMaster> (not that I have been there. Only extrapolating from going to other countries)
22:43:25 <ehird> SimonRC: I usually hit enter and ctrl-c in quick succession for that
22:43:33 <ehird> it goes in the history
22:43:44 <AnMaster> ehird, that is why I said VM :P
22:43:51 <ehird> Ctrl-a ;# ctrl-a command enter
22:44:17 <AnMaster> the enter and ctrl-c is just too risky
22:44:18 <ehird> gah, why did people stop using bluecurve
22:44:30 <ehird> you should be concentrating when doing risky things.
22:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, bluecurve is a theme for what?
22:44:41 <ehird> metacity, gnome, kde, ...........
22:44:44 <ehird> everything, basically
22:44:46 <ehird> think old redhat theme
22:44:56 <ehird> http://www.ensode.net/images/tiger_bluecurve.png
22:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well not risky. But "quite annoying to have to fix it"
22:45:02 <ehird> ignore the window contents
22:45:06 <ehird> it's java swing crap
22:45:07 <AnMaster> like ./configure long line here
22:45:23 <ehird> http://sqladmin.sourceforge.net/images/bluecurve.png
22:45:32 <ehird> older version of iwndow title, butt window contents is the same
22:46:16 <ehird> up until like 2005 i think
22:46:28 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure redhat 5 didn't have it. But could be wrong
22:46:40 <AnMaster> or at least. it wasn't default there
22:46:55 <ehird> Fedora Core 4 dropped bluecurve window border, 5 dropped theme
22:47:02 <ehird> So add a few years onto that and that's when redhat dropped it :P
22:47:16 <ehird> 4 was released june 05
22:47:31 <ehird> you know... I'm pretty sure a regular install of my distro will have no GNU software at all
22:48:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you are going to write an a.out backend for llvm then?
22:48:13 <ehird> SimonRC: good point, I'm not sure which to use
22:48:19 <ehird> AnMaster: not sure I'll use rc for command interpreter
22:48:22 <ehird> it's lacking in several areas
22:48:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. zsh is way to bloated for you
22:48:31 <ehird> for scripts around the system, though, definitely
22:48:37 <ehird> zsh is as bloated as bash
22:48:43 <pikhq> SimonRC: ... You mean bash doesn't have a kill buffer?
22:48:45 <ehird> or whatever it's called
22:48:53 <AnMaster> ehird, like, it has mmap module and what not
22:48:56 <ehird> the korn shell derivative
22:49:26 <ehird> Its weak points are that there are still a few differences from ksh88 (the major one is that `echo hi | read x' does not set x in the current shell - the read is done in a separate process).
22:49:28 <SimonRC> not quite as easy as hitting down in irssi though
22:49:37 <ehird> although really, use rc for scripts like that
22:49:57 <ehird> if pdksh has decent globbing, filename completion, and good variable expansion kind of things...
22:49:59 <SimonRC> how about a concatenative shell? RPN and all that
22:50:01 <ehird> then i might consider it
22:50:04 <AnMaster> huh. I never messed much with readline stuff
22:50:09 <ehird> rc is definitely the thing for scripts though!
22:50:32 <SimonRC> the bash man page explains all the keys you can hit
22:50:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Readline implements most of the Emacs bindings.
22:50:52 <ehird> You are about to say "csh".
22:50:55 <ehird> You may: cower in fear
22:51:02 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't mean that did you
22:51:06 <ehird> you did not just say yay tcsh
22:51:08 <ehird> you were sarcastic
22:51:16 <SimonRC> I was naming random shells
22:51:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't mean that did you <-- no
22:51:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> you did not just say yay tcsh <-- yes I did, but in a sarcastic way
22:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that original shell
22:52:05 <SimonRC> oh, wait that's not publically available
22:52:10 <ehird> http://cygwin.com/packages/posh/posh-0.6-1
22:52:11 <fizzie> I used to use tcsh; I think I switched to bash mostly out of laziness; too lazy to deviate from the norm.
22:52:32 <fizzie> I have a feeling tcsh is/was the default shell at some of the university systems.
22:52:58 <ehird> "not publically available"
22:52:59 <SimonRC> ehird: um, a shell. Don't want to say much more
22:53:01 <ehird> He probably can't say
22:53:14 <AnMaster> SimonRC, something used at work? You have your own?
22:53:14 <fizzie> [23:52:55] htkallas@kosh ~> ^D
22:53:14 <fizzie> Use "exit" to leave tcsh.
22:53:14 <fizzie> Yes, seems to be there.
22:53:17 <ehird> SimonRC -(soul)-> The Man
22:53:24 <ehird> SimonRC <-($$$)- The Man
22:53:31 <SimonRC> nah, I just made it up to sound more mysterious
22:53:36 <ehird> SimonRC: suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
22:53:47 <ehird> I wonder if there's a compatible alternative to ncurses; not that I really care, since it's only barely a GNU project and MIT-licensed
22:53:56 <ehird> but it would be fun to have a viable linux distro with no gnu software by default
22:54:02 <Gregor> <TheMan> NOM NOM NOM SOUL
22:54:27 <ehird> Optimal Fracturing File System.
22:54:33 <Gregor> ehird: pdcurses only does X11 on Linux IIRC, but maybe that's changeable.
22:54:35 <ehird> It intentionally introduces beneficial fragmentation.
22:54:52 <ehird> OTOH, ncurses apps are sufficiently fucked-up that maybe making them use X11 is good :P
22:55:39 <ehird> the command line is for command UIs, ncurses programs are point-and-click WIMP UIs
22:55:45 <ehird> or rather, tap-and-click
22:55:50 <ehird> certainly not command-line, anyway
22:55:56 <AnMaster> ehird, in X they support mouse
22:56:06 <ehird> They support mouse with xterm too
22:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is what I meant
22:56:27 <ehird> Correcting corrections FTW
22:56:34 <Gregor> And pdcurses+X actually works pretty well w/ mouse :P
22:56:45 <ehird> pdcurses seems pretty cool then
22:57:02 <ehird> does it come with an example program? arch might have a package
22:57:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I always keep reading "ftw" as "fuck the what"
22:57:07 <Gregor> Looks like it supports SDL too, and SDL supports FB consoles, so if you don't want X you could be sneaky that way :P
22:57:19 <ehird> PDCurses is a public domain curses library for DOS, OS/2, Win32, X11 and SDL, implementing most of the functions available in X/Open and System V R4 curses. It supports many compilers for these platforms. The X11 port lets you recompile existing text-mode curses programs to produce native X11 applications.
22:57:25 <ehird> Gregor: I want X :P
22:57:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought it meant that for years
22:57:36 <Gregor> Well, then, problem solved.
22:57:52 <AnMaster> ooh lament, lament is speaking.
22:57:53 <olsner> ooh, curses library that has a native X11 backend :>
22:58:02 <ehird> that's what we're discussing
22:58:34 <olsner> oh, I thought you were discussing the feasability of making a fully non-gnu linux distribution
22:58:41 <ehird> olsner: well, that too; mine is almost there
22:58:51 <AnMaster> ehird, where can I get the ISO?
22:58:52 <ehird> apart from ncurses and, uh, that's about it
22:58:56 <ehird> (without intending to do it)
22:58:57 <ehird> AnMaster: nowhere yet.
22:59:03 <ehird> but I've almost completely designed it
22:59:34 <AnMaster> don't* think you will ever implement it
22:59:44 <ehird> Yes I will, considering I'm switching to it
23:00:04 <Gregor> I would like to see no-GNU/Linux.
23:00:04 <ehird> I don't want to stay on OS X, but I cannot bring myself to use any of the current distros except maybe Arch
23:00:30 <ehird> Yeaah. vs the current crop of distros it's compelling enough to stay.
23:00:44 <ehird> But having everything work without fiddling is just boring.
23:00:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it can't even do USB afaik?
23:00:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> But having everything work without fiddling is just boring.
23:01:02 <ehird> It's the nerd in me.
23:01:10 <ehird> Making a distro is a nice way to solve that.
23:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird, this is not ehird. Please bring him back. What have you done to him.
23:01:20 <ehird> Tinkering goes in the area where you have to tinker anyway (maintanence).
23:01:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I killed him.
23:01:28 <Gregor> It's also a nice way to get rid of that pesky sanity.
23:01:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it might be a good idea to do LFS first to learn some internals.
23:01:36 <ehird> Gregor: Wow, I have sanity?
23:01:54 <ehird> anyway, back to pdcurses. no more will we have to write our terminals based on obscure corners of vt100, crippling our text editing capabilities for those vagrant applications! In X we can manage the real windows again, instead of our morass of terminals! LIBERATE THE UNKNOWLEDGABLE PROGRAMS! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!
23:02:07 <ehird> when (not if) X11 breaks...
23:02:11 <ehird> and i'm dumped to a console...
23:02:16 <ehird> Can't connect to display
23:02:19 <ehird> Can't connect to display
23:02:31 <ehird> OKAY NCURSES IT IS
23:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot emacs in that list
23:02:40 <ehird> AnMaster: No GNU stuff, remember? :P
23:02:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:02:42 <AnMaster> ehird, also bash links to ncurses
23:02:59 <pikhq> ehird: He never said GNU Emacs. :P
23:03:15 <ehird> "GNUmacs? FUCK THAT SHIT! GOSLING EMACS!"
23:03:16 <AnMaster> ehird, or rather, readline links to ncurses. and that causes bash to also
23:03:24 <ehird> *GOS! LING! EMACS!
23:03:31 <pikhq> Or that Emacs-alike that Linus uses.
23:03:37 <pikhq> What AnMaster said.
23:03:50 <ehird> Gosling Emacs circa 1981/
23:04:00 <ehird> First Lisp-like extension language.
23:04:13 <AnMaster> ehird, what did it run on before
23:04:14 <ehird> Some code used in initial GNU Emacs.
23:04:22 <ehird> And ITS and stuff.
23:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ... I know but what did TECO run on I meant
23:04:31 <ehird> Basically, everyone who says rms invented Emacs?
23:04:39 <ehird> Has never heard of Gosling Emacs.
23:04:42 <fizzie> "Its extension language, Mocklisp, has a syntax that appears similar to Lisp, but Mocklisp has no lists or other structured datatypes." Heh, Lisp with no lists sounds like a winner.
23:04:50 <ehird> and Bill Joy, another java guy, made vi...
23:04:56 <ehird> THAT'S why Java sucks
23:04:57 <pikhq> ehird: I could've sworn rms wrote TECO Emacs.
23:05:04 <ehird> the vi inventor and the Gosling Emacs inventor
23:05:07 * SimonRC wonders where Eclipse came from then
23:05:10 <ehird> Why didn't I think of this before?!
23:05:19 <ehird> pikhq: the point is that gosling emacs pioneered what we know as emacs
23:05:30 <ehird> and TECO emacs wasn't anything like that at all
23:05:38 <pikhq> Rms saw Gosling Emacs and felt that it had a lot of good ideas.
23:05:41 <ehird> I'll just assume nobody got my reference, incidentally
23:06:05 <ehird> "GNUmacs? FUCK THAT SHIT! GOS! LING! EMACS!"
23:09:29 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhiofL2Rh4
23:11:05 <ehird> guess who else didn't get references? Hitler!
23:11:29 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry.
23:11:56 <ehird> Guess who else invoked Godwin's law just by existing?
23:12:45 <AnMaster> wait. Is this some law about mentioning godwin's law?
23:12:45 * SimonRC recalls blog posts comparing Hitler to BO.
23:13:02 <ehird> http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/
23:13:11 <ehird> Barack Obama is literally Hitler.
23:13:51 <ehird> http://16.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kqebfvzCxB1qzniowo1_500.jpg
23:15:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/ <-- is that conservative or is it joking with conservative
23:15:54 <ehird> This person totally believes that Barack Obama is literally the same person as Hitler. Yep.
23:16:07 <ehird> And also believes that that comic is actual proof of it.
23:16:16 * SimonRC liked the Onion video about how Obama plans to deal with a raging wildfire
23:16:20 <AnMaster> ehird, a nutcase then? Or you being sarcastic :P
23:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I didn't say that
23:16:29 <ehird> I'm absolutely not sarcastic, how can you even suggest that
23:16:53 <SimonRC> I am way left by american standards, yet I found that vidoe funny. Odd.
23:17:15 <ehird> SimonRC: Pretty sure the Onion staff is too.
23:18:06 <ehird> Anyone who can't laugh at themselves is an idiot, so anyone who can't laugh at someone else, no matter who they are, is too.
23:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't hear what they said clearly in that video.
23:18:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhiofL2Rh4
23:19:32 <ehird> "What kind of beer do you like?" "(muffled)" "HEINEKEN? Fuck that shit! PABST! BLUE! RIBBON!"
23:20:47 <ehird> What kind of bear do you like?
23:24:09 <ehird> I wish writing an init had some kind of hidden complexity instead of just being sundry C code.
23:24:42 <ehird> /bin/kernel calls /bin/init calls /bin/login, la la la
23:25:03 <ehird> Wonder what login(1) usually is. Doesn't look like GNU from the manpage.
23:26:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Incidentally, a cool thing about dwm and wmii:
23:26:22 <SimonRC> is this an attempt to create a linux distro that is not "GNU/LINUX"?
23:26:23 <ehird> The different desktops are actually tags
23:26:26 <ehird> A window can be on more than one tag
23:26:39 <ehird> SimonRC: No, it's an attempt at creating a minimalist distro focused on simplicity and usability
23:26:42 <ehird> To a radical degree
23:26:54 <ehird> Static binaries only, a.out, no kernel modules, non-glibc libc...
23:26:59 <AnMaster> ehird, guess what. They can in kde3 too
23:27:10 <SimonRC> won't the binaries be quite ... big?
23:27:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah, but is it easy to apply them? In dwm it's just Mod+Shift+number.
23:27:35 <ehird> SimonRC: Nope. Most of the binary size when using static binaries is caused by the huge glibc.
23:27:37 <SimonRC> I suppose busybox will cover a lot of stuff
23:27:44 <ehird> SimonRC: And static binaries only include the parts they use.
23:27:53 <AnMaster> ehird, if you want "all desktops" or "one desktop" yes. if you want "some desktops" it is incredibly complex
23:28:22 <ehird> SimonRC: Plus, it's faster to execute statically linked binaries, and they're completely immune to ABI changes. Besides... look at the dependencies of some package in your distro.
23:28:28 <ehird> See all those lib* dependencies?
23:28:36 <pikhq> SimonRC: No, but it's not like it's *hard* to create a non-GNU Linux distro.
23:28:37 <ehird> On the whole, a program using a lot of libraries may actually end up smaller.
23:28:47 <pikhq> A busybox/uclibc based system would just about do it.
23:29:03 <ehird> Oh, I forgot one: init system just based on simple rc shell scripts
23:29:39 <ehird> Anyway, non-GNU isn't specifically a goal, but it turns out that GNU software is basically the opposite of simplicity, minimalism, usability and Unix.
23:30:01 <ehird> So I end up simply not wanting to add much GNU software at all
23:31:59 <ehird> I'm not sure I'll be using busybox
23:32:18 <ehird> I like smallness, but I don't like how everything is in one binary, and the tools often seem overly barebones just to eke out the last bytes.
23:32:37 <pikhq> Busybox is most useful if you want a really absurdly barebones base install.
23:33:08 <pikhq> (like, say, /bin/kernel, /bin/init, /bin/rc, /bin/busybox...)
23:33:34 <ehird> I should totally do a hack so that you can execute /bin/kernel from inside it :P
23:33:45 <ehird> pikhq: Is that /bin/rc the startup binary?
23:33:47 <ehird> As opposed to a script
23:33:54 <pikhq> ehird: The rc shell.
23:34:01 <ehird> Busybox has a shell :P
23:34:17 <pikhq> True. I only put that in because you wanted init to be in rc. :P
23:34:53 <ehird> Well, not /bin/init, but that'll be tiny.
23:35:05 <ehird> Most everything will be handled by /etc/rc.{stop,start}.
23:35:09 <ehird> which /bin/init will call
23:35:21 <SimonRC> is it possible to make init a shell script?
23:35:25 <ehird> No inittab or run levels or anything
23:35:29 <ehird> SimonRC: I'm not sure
23:35:34 <pikhq> Sounds a lot like Gentoo's init setup (except that it uses a bog-standard sysvinit)...
23:35:37 <ehird> SimonRC: I think so; the kernel just uses a regular exec, I believe
23:35:55 <ehird> pikhq: Well, sysvinit is a lot more complicated than just handling signals and calling shell scripts.
23:36:22 <pikhq> ehird: All the inittab does in Gentoo is start /sbin/rc for the runlevels.
23:36:25 <ehird> init will be a binary because you need to be able to kill it to shut down and the like
23:36:30 <ehird> and I want to make sure it won't die
23:36:41 <ehird> it'll be like 1 KiB though
23:36:51 <pikhq> (which are "shutdown", "single", "nonetwork", "default", and "reboot")
23:36:57 <ehird> Incidentally, you could make /etc/rc.{start,stop} in Python or whateverr
23:37:03 <ehird> Just change the shebang
23:38:22 <ehird> OTOH, busybox gets me a lot of tools that work with Linux like mount
23:38:29 <ehird> whereas, say, porting a BSD's tools would be more work
23:39:00 <ehird> pikhq: No runlevels in my system! >:)
23:39:02 <SimonRC> brainfuck lacks the power to spawn new processes alas
23:39:23 <ehird> If you want an X login manager make /bin/login a shell script that starts x or whatever
23:39:29 <pikhq> ehird: So, more like Busybox init.
23:39:39 <ehird> Otherwise just run startx after logging in, or even condition on
23:39:43 <ehird> "are we in a console?"
23:39:50 <ehird> ofc that breaks consoles :P
23:39:52 <pikhq> (though that does handle an inittab. Just no runlevels.)
23:40:10 <ehird> You could make a /bin/login shell script that starts x and then runs the old /bin/login, of course
23:40:27 <ehird> I'll probably have a ready-made file to do that
23:40:31 <ehird> so you can just do
23:40:33 <SimonRC> Why couldn't init just be a shell script that calls a list of stuff to start in sequence?
23:40:39 <SimonRC> easy to maintain, very simple
23:40:44 <ehird> SimonRC: that's what it is!
23:40:58 <ehird> it's just that init has to run constantly, and my shutdown procedure involves sending signals to init
23:40:59 <SimonRC> so you can disable things just by commenting out lines?
23:41:30 <ehird> my /bin/init will basically set up any infrastructure needed, run /bin/rc.start, and then sit there waiting for the right signals (shutdown, restart, suspend to RAM, etc)
23:41:40 <ehird> in which case it'll act appropriately; for shutdowns and reboots, it'll run /bin/rc.stop first
23:41:42 <ehird> before halting or rebooting
23:41:52 <ehird> /etc/rc.{start,stop{
23:42:17 <SimonRC> every time you add a new thing to run in startup, you can just re-create init, e.g. using "tsort"
23:42:24 <ehird> No need to recreate init
23:42:26 <SimonRC> that way /etc/rc.* are not needed
23:42:59 <SimonRC> to try out something no other distro does?
23:43:13 <ehird> Seems like it'd just make changing the init stuff fussy for no benefit.
23:43:19 <SimonRC> as a simpler way to get startup dependancies?
23:43:25 <ehird> But no distro has an init system as simple as mine, without any inittab or anything
23:43:31 <ehird> you're just proposing embedding the script, right?
23:43:58 <ehird> You have not even adequately explained your proposal...
23:44:02 <ehird> So I don't understand.
23:44:13 <SimonRC> I haven't really thought about it...
23:44:30 <SimonRC> so, there is a list of things that must be run at startup?
23:44:32 <ehird> tsort is a good idea, though
23:44:35 <ehird> SimonRC: and shutdown
23:44:37 <SimonRC> and this list changes occasionally?
23:44:50 <ehird> Note that the scripts may have logic
23:44:56 <ehird> Since starting stuff can be non-trivial
23:45:14 <ehird> if (file exists /dev/foo)
23:46:36 <SimonRC> But init need not re-determine what order to run things in every time the system starts. It might be nicer to "compile" the list of things to call in the right order with the maximum parallelism into a new /bin/init every time the list of things present changes
23:46:46 <SimonRC> or that might just turn into a nightmare
23:47:08 <ehird> Yes, the dependency parallelism thing is a good idea and a good justification for it
23:47:14 <ehird> But a shell script is a lot simpler
23:47:23 <SimonRC> but it can be a shell script
23:47:27 <ehird> And my distro is minimalist enough that boot to X will take, what, 2 seconds?
23:47:39 <ehird> So it seems like a lot of complexity for a slightly faster boot is a waste.
23:47:52 <ehird> Especially as this way is much easier to maintain; just slot it in the right place.
23:48:28 <SimonRC> of course, init would need to be recreated every time you added or removed a demon, which might be tricky
23:48:38 <ehird> Not tricky, just a pain.
23:51:18 <ehird> SimonRC: Incidentally, know any kernel patches for good suspend/hibernate/resume support?
23:51:30 <ehird> LinuxOnIce looked promising but its suspend-to-disk mode is unbelievably slow from the looks of it
23:52:34 <ehird> Come to think of it, you don't need to edit /bin/login to get an X login manager, duh
23:52:39 <ehird> Just edit /etc/rc.start and change
23:53:06 <ehird> but you get the idea
23:56:00 <ehird> PATH=~/bin:/local/bin:/bin will be pretty cool to have.
23:56:20 <ehird> Although I think it should just be PATH=/bin by default.
23:58:31 <SimonRC> using those overlaid dirs, PLan9-style?
23:58:43 <ehird> Nope, although I might consider having something like that.
23:59:11 <ehird> It's just that I know I'll have no /usr (pointless directory), /local will be uncommon due to there being, you know, packages, and ~/bin isn't that common either (besides, it's easy to add them)
23:59:20 <ehird> All distro binaries and packages you make's binaries go into /bin