00:04:01 <Taneb> Should `2014 be kept?
00:04:19 <ais523> otherwise it defeats the point
00:06:14 <AndoDaan> 2014 wasn't 2014 for just 2014, but for all time. That's true in the abstract, but it helps drive the point home having a running implementation.
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01:23:11 <myname> okay, i made my first ever golfing attempt in haskell for Kimariji and needed 139 bytes
01:24:24 <myname> 132 with less whitespace
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01:26:40 <myname> is there something like µ recursion in haskell?
01:27:28 <myname> like, giving a predicate, return the largest possible value that satisfies it
01:28:09 <myname> i am doing last(0:[x|x<-[1..99],pred x]) now
01:28:33 <myname> 0.. might solve that leading 0 problem
01:29:20 <myname> so last [x|x<-[0..99],pred x]
01:30:36 <myname> i don't think i will shorten it much more with my attempt
01:35:19 <int-e> myname: check for final newlines
01:35:58 <myname> vim does not show a second line, so i guess there is none
01:36:30 <int-e> vim adds a final newline by default
01:36:52 <myname> how do you remove them?
01:36:57 <int-e> I usually use the form for submission
01:37:16 <myname> i have 3 times the word "take" :(
01:37:33 <int-e> and I don't remember how to omit the final newline in vim (it was discussed here before, it's possible somehow)
01:37:41 <boily> myname: you could use some sed trickery, I think.
01:38:56 <myname> okay, can i do something like x<-"bar" to get "b", "ba", "bar"?
01:39:58 <myname> oh dear, that makes stuff worse
01:40:03 <int-e> inits, but you need to import Data.List for that, so it's generally not worth it. scanl(flip(:))[][1,2,3] comes close, but generally even that is too long
01:40:34 <myname> i would need to replace one usage of take with one of length
01:40:40 <myname> doesn't sound that smart
01:41:56 <myname> ghci won't let me run that line of yours, what the hell
01:42:13 <int-e> > scanl(flip(:))[][1,2,3]
01:42:34 <int-e> it should work just like that in ghci, too.
01:42:45 <myname> i don't think that would help with this problem
01:42:54 <boily> > map reverse.tail.scanl(flip(:))$[][1,2,3]
01:42:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[a0] -> [[a0]]’ with ‘[[a]]’
01:42:55 <lambdabot> Actual type: [a0] -> [a0] -> [[a0]]Couldn't match expected type ‘[t1] -> [...
01:43:14 <boily> > map reverse.tail.scanl(flip(:))[]$[1,2,3]
01:43:21 <int-e> scanl/scanr do come in useful from time to time, so it's good to keep in mind that they're in the prelude.
01:44:33 <int-e> myname: one can learn a lot of tricks by looking at previous entries, but usually the main trick is to come up with a good algorithm.
01:45:43 <myname> what i do now is building a list of numbers where the prefix is NOT identifying and adding one
01:45:47 <int-e> (from previous entries you can learn tricks like defining custom infix operators (often better than alphanumeric names for function definitions), guards, pattern guards...)
01:45:57 <myname> but checking if it is identifying takes quite some space
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01:46:55 <int-e> why the negation, why don't you take the minimum of those lengths that *are* identifying?
01:47:17 <int-e> (also my algorithm is completely different, but that's all I intend to say about it)
01:47:39 <myname> but i don't think it'll be much shorter
01:47:54 <myname> i waste 42 bytes to check if a prefix is identifying
01:48:59 <int-e> I'd expect this to be good for a couple of characters, 3 to 5 perhaps.
01:49:00 <myname> it is 3 bytes shorter with that
01:49:43 <int-e> (mostly because it's saving a +1)
01:50:05 <myname> but i need a == instead of a < somewhere else now
01:51:44 <boily> when golfing haskell, are you allowed to use the fancy unicode operators? if so, do they count as single chars?
01:52:00 <int-e> heh. my big Haskell golfing source file (I keep all the programs in a single file) has the output of :browse Prelude at the end
01:52:05 <myname> what fancy unicode operators?
01:52:13 <int-e> boily: anagol counts bytes
01:52:39 <int-e> besides {-# LANGUAGE UnicodeSyntax #-} is just too long
01:52:50 <int-e> (even after omitting the two superfluous spaces)
01:53:45 <boily> int-e: noooooooooo :(
01:54:05 <boily> myname: λ, ＊ and similar.
01:54:17 <myname> what the hell do they do
01:54:21 <boily> (not sure about ＊ though, but it'd be typographically feng shui.)
01:54:48 <boily> myname: the first is lambda, the other is something that I don't think I have ever seen...
01:55:13 <boily> (too lazy to try to type the triple-bar-equal-sign. that one I know is actually used.)
01:55:16 <myname> boily: well, does it behave different than \?
01:55:39 <boily> myname: absolutely not. it is purely graphical.
01:56:18 <int-e> boily: this may come as a surprise to you, but generally speaking, golf code is NOT PRETTY
01:56:18 <boily> in fact, there's some vim madness that you can use to change the way operators are displayed in your source files, but keep the underlying ascii intact.
01:56:58 * boily wants to prettify his golf
01:57:12 <Jafet> Actually, some people prefer to not use λ because it is a Greek letter, not a symbol.
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01:59:27 <myname> i wish there were some kind of any2
02:00:43 <myname> check if there are at least 2 values that satisfy a property
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02:02:30 <int-e> boily: have you seen the "beautiful" indentation here? http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Prime+Substrings/henkma%28oerjan%29_1415625927&hs
02:03:34 <myname> is there any reason not to interact with lines/unlines?
02:04:04 <myname> i can hardly believe getLine and putStrLn are that much shorter
02:04:45 <int-e> myname: it depends, there is no general rule for that
02:05:08 <myname> i am however curious about that brainfuck solution
02:05:14 <int-e> since here, the whole input has to be read before anything can be processed, I believe 'interact' will be superior.
02:05:35 <boily> int-e: ... eghbhghhhghh...
02:05:47 <myname> boily: what's the problem?
02:05:53 <myname> looks perfectly fine for me
02:05:54 <boily> it's... disquieting.
02:05:56 <Jafet> m@main deserves an award
02:06:15 <myname> i do think it's quite normal to do this
02:07:04 <Jafet> That indentation is a ghc extension, though
02:08:48 <int-e> myname: I expect the brainfuck is a variation on this idea: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Text+Compression/nuko%28cheat%29_1201178750&bf ... the interpreter puts the program code after the data area, so it's possible to skip over the data and use verbatim strings from the program itself
02:08:53 <myname> too bad i have to access the whole input in my check, i have a seperate function just to give it a name
02:09:20 <int-e> boily: ghc is the only haskell there is on anagol ;-)
02:10:30 <int-e> oh I got the direction wrong.
02:10:59 <myname> i am doing something like "let f i=do something with i in interact f" now and i am a bit unhappy about it
02:11:04 <int-e> (since it's obviosuly moving left)
02:11:10 <myname> but i can't see how to avoid it at the moment
02:11:22 <int-e> myname: define a global id
02:11:46 <int-e> main=interact f;f i=do something with i
02:11:56 <int-e> (or do it on two lkilines)
02:12:42 <myname> that's indeed 6 bytes shorter
02:13:35 <int-e> 'let' and 'where' are hardly ever worthwhile
02:13:44 <int-e> but there are exceptions.
02:13:54 <myname> if i could somewhere get rid of naming it directly, it'd be pretty nice
02:14:29 <int-e> main=interact(\i->do something with i) is worth a try sometimes.
02:15:03 <int-e> also, point-free code, but there's no S combinator (or anything comparable that can duplicate an argument) in the Prelude
02:15:49 <myname> (\i-> works but has exactly the same length
02:16:07 <int-e> > ap (+) (2*) 1 2 -- this "ap-tly" named one is in Control.Monad
02:16:08 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
02:16:08 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_1212’
02:16:08 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> t), GHC.Num.Num a)
02:16:38 <int-e> myname: are you using 'lines' twice?
02:17:54 <myname> don't see why i should do that
02:18:56 <int-e> just interesting because I originally started out with main=interact$unlines.f.lines
02:19:32 <myname> but why should i line there twice?
02:20:53 <int-e> never mind. I'm just surprised that the \i-> helped you rather than being neutral
02:21:34 <myname> i'm down to 102, it's getting hard
02:22:38 <myname> "on" is not in prelude, is it?
02:23:13 <myname> i really dislike my check
02:23:42 <int-e> > let f a b c|t<-take a=t b==t c in f 3 "abcd" "abcef"
02:24:12 <int-e> behold: pattern guard abuse
02:24:46 <boily> I'm with myname here. what the fungot is going on here.
02:24:54 <boily> FireFly: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
02:25:31 <int-e> > let f a | Just _ <- guard (a==5) = 4 | 1 > 0 = a in (f 3, f 5)
02:25:57 <myname> what the hell does take do with 3 parameters?
02:25:58 <int-e> just like that, but with a more boring pattern (`t`)
02:26:18 <Jafet> @quote view.pattern
02:26:18 <lambdabot> benmachine says: let (\x -> case x of (\x -> x -> x) -> x -> x) = 0 in x / best view pattern evar
02:26:45 <myname> so you rename "take a" to t
02:26:46 <int-e> But view patterns are not in Haskell 2010. Pattern guards are.
02:28:11 <myname> is it possible to do something like this in a list comprehension?
02:28:54 <int-e> well, x<-[foo] and let x=foo happen to be the same length
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02:29:17 <int-e> err. wait, what am I saying
02:29:34 <int-e> the former saves one character.
02:30:16 <Jafet> > let x|x<-x=x|x=x in x
02:31:40 <myname> well, it actually makes my code longer
02:32:24 <myname> that should be enough for now
02:32:58 <int-e> dream up other algorithms
02:33:31 <myname> i am quite happy with it as is for my first ever golfing attempt in haskel
02:33:52 <myname> i discussed the problem aside from golfing and people suggested a trie
02:34:08 <myname> but it may be incredibly long to implement
02:37:31 <int-e> right. tries or suffix arrays should give good performance
02:40:11 <myname> is there something like length$filter...? i am using sum[1| right now
02:41:39 <int-e> (I recall discovering that trick; it felt good.)
02:42:50 <int-e> sum[1|x] is also shorter than fromEnum x (conversions from tests to 0 or 1 is one of the most annoying problems in Haskell golfing, I've found; I've spent a lot of time on trying to rewrite code so that this won't be necessary)
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02:45:01 <Jafet> > ([1|False],[1|True])
02:45:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘]’
02:46:13 <int-e> Jafet: I would use that in production code without blushing (except with spaces, [1 | test])
02:47:04 <Jafet> Booleans in production code? Shocking
02:47:28 <Jafet> I'm surprised that desugaring comprehensions gives that result
02:47:37 <int-e> Jafet: I would not use the sum[1 | ...] version though; that should clearly be fromEnum ...
02:48:03 <int-e> > guard (1==1) :: [()]
02:48:10 <int-e> > guard (1==2) :: [()]
02:48:11 <myname> too bad this isn't vba, where adding 1 to z gives you aa
02:48:20 <myname> i could brute force everything
02:49:30 <int-e> Jafet: Hmm. I wonder how the Haskell report defines this, whether it's in terms of guard or in terms of filter ... but the former makes more sense to me.
02:50:37 <Jafet> It uses a recursive definition with [x|True] = [x] as the base case
02:52:38 <boily> adding 1. to z. gives you aa. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
02:52:45 <int-e> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-420003.11 --- oh it's spelled out, but it's essentially the 'guard' version. The trick in translating [x|p] is to use [x|p] = [x|p,True] = if p then [x|True] else [] = if p then [x] else [].
02:53:06 <Jafet> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG + 1
02:53:25 <int-e> Jafet: so adding an artificial ,True to avoid the case that Q could be empty in the translation of the 'p' guard.
02:54:35 <int-e> Hey, we're having *fun* without fungot!
02:54:58 <Jafet> We haven't got fungot fun.
02:55:23 <myname> while we are at the haskell topic: would somebody recommend what of all these arrays i need? i want to have a text with O(1) access with lines that don't have the same length
02:55:25 <boily> fizzie`: WHARGHARBL! IEUAAAAH! FLBLBLBLBLBL! [INARTICULATE SUPRASEGMENTAL YELLING]!
02:55:34 <myname> so it should be an array of arrays of chars
02:55:46 * boily disappears to watch the TV specials...
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02:56:23 <lambdabot> Ix i => (i, i) -> [(i, e)] -> Array i e
02:56:40 <myname> aren't there like 6 different arrays?
02:57:13 <int-e> yes, there's a matrix of them: unboxed/boxed and pure, for IO, and for ST
02:58:04 <int-e> Since the lines will be some boxed type (ByteString or Text?), I think you'll be using a pure, boxed array, that's Array
02:58:33 <coppro> myname: software transactional memory
02:58:33 <int-e> Control.Monad.ST - the "state thread" monad which allows pure computations that work with (think: temporary) arrays.
02:58:52 <myname> well, since i want to access each character i most likely want something like Array Int (Array Int Char)
02:59:46 <myname> should still be linear time to build it up
02:59:54 <int-e> myname: or Array Int (UArray Int Char) -- but seriously I'd store the lines as either ByteStrings or as Text.
03:00:12 <myname> int-e: i need O(1) access to every single char
03:00:18 <int-e> (UArray is the unboxed, pure array; it's much more compact than the boxed one)
03:00:26 <int-e> ByteString will give you that
03:00:56 <myname> oh, i should read about bytestring then
03:01:35 <myname> i guess ByteString is similar to what C thinks is a string
03:02:31 <int-e> Array Int Char will store a pointer per character, which points to a Char value. UArray Int Char will be a flat array of - hmm - wide characters?
03:03:03 <myname> so UArray Int Char should basically a ByteString?
03:03:46 <Jafet> An array of Word32s
03:04:32 <myname> it is surprisingly simple
03:05:05 <myname> i think i overestimated them
03:07:03 <int-e> myname: nah, the UArray Int Char stores (32 bit, I checked) characters, ideally unicode code points; ByteString stores bytes, so it's closer to the C's char*.
03:08:25 <myname> there are no ready to use function to make [[Char]] into Array Int ByteString i guess
03:08:43 <myname> should be pretty easy, though
03:10:23 <Jafet> Actually, since Char is boxed I think it is 16 bytes on amd64
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03:11:56 <Jafet> (And String uses 40 bytes per character.)
03:13:44 <Jafet> (The haskellwiki mentions a Char pool; presumably ASCII Chars only use 8 bytes on average.)
03:14:33 <Sgeo> Idris functions are anti-parametric unless exported as abstract
03:16:44 <myname> how come i need (i, i) to build an array?
03:17:18 <myname> isn't it usually directly dependent of the list?
03:17:48 <Jafet> Scanning the list to find its size is a bad idea.
03:18:50 <Jafet> (Your computer may not have enough memory to force a list spine, even if its contents would fit into a UArray.)
03:26:34 <int-e> Jafet: the Char pool (is that a misspelled car pool?) covers latin1, hmm. (it goes up to 255.)
03:27:07 <int-e> or simply, chars-as-bytes.
03:37:44 <int-e> ah I may have reproduced oerjan's 90 character version.
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03:39:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Notjohnconway * moved [[CA-1]] to [[CA (programming language)]]: set of languages
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03:42:01 <int-e> myname: If I'm right then this snippet offers food for thought: map take[1..]
04:01:41 <int-e> (that's good for 88 characters in my attempt)
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05:01:28 <adu> happy new year!
05:02:07 <int-e> And it's still the year of the horse.
05:04:16 <Sgeo> Happy New Year, anyone in my timezone!
05:07:03 <int-e> Yay, 1/1460 of the year is already past.
05:13:43 <adu> int-e: lol
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05:50:00 * oerjan changes a 4 to a 5 in the log url
05:53:24 <Sgeo> Do the two kinds of vararg systems have names? The system where the caller gives a number of arguments that the function has to accept (e.g. most Lisps) vs where the function decides, based on arguments or other things how many arguments to take (e.g. C and Idris)?
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06:05:15 <zzo38> Why doesn't DOSBox have a "UNMOUNT" command?
06:05:56 <oerjan> this is stupid. i am trying to find the english original for http://heltnormalt.no/img/tommytigern/2014/12/31.jpg but neither tin-eye nor google manage it. you'd think it was a simple thing to achieve...
06:06:33 <oerjan> (tin-eye only give the same page, while google only gives everything else on the same page.)
06:06:53 <oerjan> (which are of course, entirely different comics.)
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06:14:28 <int-e> zzo38: why not? it also has a mount command...
06:15:01 <int-e> zzo38: missed the negation. I guess the answer is that you can just restart dosbox.
06:15:45 <oerjan> text searches like "calvin and hobbes playing cards" don't find it either :(
06:17:58 <oerjan> applying extra quotes doesn't help
06:19:04 <int-e> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1994/01/01 - that was easy.
06:19:28 <int-e> oerjan: note the year (between first and second panel) and the date (next to the signature in the last panel)
06:19:46 * oerjan already tried searching on that site...
06:19:51 <int-e> "read between the lines"
06:23:27 <int-e> but yeah, a calvin&hobbes text search would be nice. too bad that (probably illegal) transmogrifier site is (long) dead.
06:36:06 <shachaf> int-e: I don't know what that transmogrifier site is, but I once made a local copy of a site that did C&H text search.
06:37:54 <int-e> http://www.transmogrifier.org/no_more_ch.html?ch/comics/list.cgi <-- this one
06:38:11 <shachaf> It has a .js file with a transcription of every strip, I think.
06:40:03 <shachaf> whoa, I forgot I had this.
06:43:15 <coppro> oerjan: should have tole me yesterday
06:43:24 <coppro> i gave my father the complete c&h collection for christmas
06:44:54 <shachaf> I wonder how copyright should apply to an index.
06:45:46 <int-e> keywords may be fine; transcripts are clearly subject to copyright law.
06:46:00 <Jafet> I bet Google knows about that.
06:50:22 <int-e> hmm, transcripts may be a transformative use (under US law)... interesting question.
06:50:51 <int-e> Note: I'm speculating.
07:10:06 <oerjan> argh. who but GG makes paper doll cliffhangers
07:10:32 <int-e> Yeah, I was going to complain about that too.
07:11:13 <int-e> "ne'er do wells who write this electro-rag" - indeed.
07:11:38 <int-e> err. I can't copy correctly.
07:11:41 <int-e> "ne'er do well hacks who write this electro-rag" - indeed.
07:12:11 <oerjan> oh end of a volume? so it's actually the entirely volume that ends on a cliffhanger.
07:12:44 <oerjan> grammar, where dideth you went
07:13:12 <int-e> I hate being 30 seconds off-phase wrt. to oerjan.
07:13:33 <int-e> (well, at least if I'm 30 seconds behind)
07:13:49 <int-e> being 30 seconds ahead feels kinda nice.
07:13:50 <oerjan> technically i cheated by not reading linearly
07:20:08 <int-e> meh, it's a new year and I still haven't figured out how henkma did 'identity matrix' (and some other open-ended problems where I haven't submitted solutions yet because they'd score less than 10k)
07:21:09 <int-e> (otoh, henkma hasn't caught up on http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?kM4_ )
07:22:04 <int-e> (almost everybody is totally cheating on that one.)
07:23:20 <oerjan> that seems like one it would be silly _not_ to cheat on
07:25:43 <zzo38> int-e: I know you can just restart DOSBox, but I hope to have UNMOUNT command so that you can reassign a drive letter without having to restart DOSBox!!
07:27:50 <int-e> zzo38: actually, mount -u does just what you want
07:29:39 <zzo38> O, OK, but it doesn't seems to have that in the built-in documentation
07:30:15 <int-e> same here. dosbox(1) documents it though.
07:33:35 <zzo38> Is it possible for the mount command to specify whether or not programs on a mounted drive are allowed to access special DOSBox functions such as mounting a drive?
07:36:14 <int-e> config -securemode may be of interest, but that's a one-way street.
07:37:34 <int-e> I don't see how dosbox would distinguish between programs loaded from one drive or another.
07:38:09 <zzo38> It displays the name of the program at the top, so probably it can know.
07:42:44 <oerjan> int-e: it seems to me like embedding the output won't get anywhere near 39 or 40, you need something like main=do n<-readLn;print$...random cleverly searched for math formula here...
07:43:01 <zzo38> I also believe DOSBox ought to include its own versions of DEBUG and MODE commands. Other than that, the existing commands are probably fine.
07:43:38 <oerjan> and henkma just hasn't searched as cleverly as you
07:44:56 <int-e> oerjan: yeah I think that's a fair summary
07:45:24 <int-e> oerjan: I suspect that henkma does everything by hand.
07:48:29 <int-e> oerjan: oh http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Dancing+Kids is another annoying one.
07:48:50 <int-e> (I have a 101 character solution...)
07:49:14 <int-e> actually, two variations of that.
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08:03:47 <DrMcHood> Have studied Ebonics for many decades, have dived into programming the past 2 years. Any thoughts on a convergence?
08:03:52 <int-e> (Now it's just a can't-believe-I-missed-that-the-last-time-I-worked-on-this nuisance.)
08:04:57 <zzo38> DrMcHood: Sorry, I don't know. (That doesn't imply everyone else also doesn't know.)
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08:08:55 <DrMcHood> keep it(100):[tree.fitty.4°[ice cold*2^chains]]
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08:16:32 <coppro> how do I set an environment variable for both X and login sessions? I thought that was what .profile was for but it does not seem to be working
08:19:33 <coppro> streaming at http://twitch.tv/coppro
08:34:03 <int-e> coppro: I think that has become impossible to answer; it depends on your X11 login and session managers.
08:34:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "2014" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
08:39:32 <int-e> coppro: some possible suggestions can be found here ... https://superuser.com/questions/19044/how-do-i-set-an-environmental-variable-for-a-gnome-session
09:11:36 * oerjan notes that the last `2014 hello world appeared on the january 1 log page.
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09:43:13 <oerjan> <int-e> and I don't remember how to omit the final newline in vim (it was discussed here before, it's possible somehow) <-- something like :set binary noeol
09:43:33 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Thu Jan 1 11:43:32 2015
09:48:03 <oerjan> <int-e> (also my algorithm is completely different, but that's all I intend to say about it) <-- I COULD GUESS THAT
09:51:32 <oerjan> i suspect myname has converged towards the algorithm i'm using, but is missing a trick or too
09:51:39 <oerjan> but that doesn't help us beat you
09:51:57 <int-e> did I guess that snippet correctly?
09:52:17 <oerjan> i haven't got to that in the log if it's there
09:52:30 <int-e> "snippet" should be in the log?
09:54:55 <int-e> oh well. 2 down, 3 to go ... identity matrix, I'll get you yet...
09:56:34 <oerjan> i have plenty of take, though, modulo that they're so many i defined an operator
09:58:41 <int-e> hmm. if I make it an operator in my 88 solution it gets larger :)
10:04:16 <Jafet> I tried map take and did it in one take.
10:05:54 <Jafet> > (\l->do x<-l;[p x|p<-map take[1..],[x]==[y|y<-l,p x==p y]]!!0++"\n") ["abc","acd","bcd","abd"]
10:06:32 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
10:09:15 <int-e> Jafet: fancy, mine looks a bit different but has the same length.
10:13:30 <oerjan> Jafet: i had to either submit a version of that or ban you for spoiling so i chose the former hth
10:14:17 <oerjan> int-e: did you use and[p x/=p y|y<-l,x/=y] ?
10:14:34 <Jafet> Does it change anything, as you are not in first place?
10:14:45 <oerjan> Jafet: slightly increased score?
10:15:34 <int-e> oerjan: that's one character longer, hth.
10:16:21 <oerjan> counted an extra ending bracket, duh
10:16:59 <Jafet> Oh, there is a total score for competitors. The list does not seem to load, though.
10:17:36 <fizzie> It takes a while, at least.
10:18:14 <int-e> Jafet: try the per-language lists, they're faster
10:21:13 <oerjan> at least i already had the !!0++"\n" part.
10:24:17 <int-e> `iterate` is tooooooo long.
10:24:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: iterate`: not found
10:25:24 <int-e> (that remark is unrelated to Kimariji)
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10:35:56 <oerjan> Taneb: THE YEAR IS ALL GONE
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11:04:08 <int-e> (I overshot the identity matrix target)
11:14:00 <oerjan> oh no, we have created a monster
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11:21:40 <int-e> ah, nothing out of the ordinary then
11:21:48 <fungot> int-e: i only went there for a conference. see you
11:22:05 <oerjan> see? his alibi is water-tight.
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12:32:37 <fizzie> fungot: Which conference did you go to?
12:32:37 <fungot> fizzie: i was going to make a byte vector of length 1
12:32:45 <fizzie> Ah, the byte vector conference.
12:33:40 <elliott> fizzie: you move tomorrow, right?
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12:37:11 <fungot> FireFly: that would make sense to not add an entry into the ascii contest so far ( i'm at 1.31 right now)
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12:54:46 <J_Arcane> That's an interesting carrot-and-stick. F# closures only work with immutable variables.
12:57:11 <scarf> J_Arcane: same in Java, I think
12:57:20 <scarf> basically it's to avoid confusion about scope in closures
12:58:20 <oerjan> i thought it was to ensure that closure could be implemente simply by copying everything in scope
12:58:57 <oerjan> or everything referred to
12:59:19 <Taneb> How can I prove that if a has a multiplicative inverse mod m then gcd(a, m) = 1?
13:00:29 <oerjan> Taneb: a*r - 1 is divisible by m, which means a*r - 1 and a*r are both divisible by gcd(a,m)...
13:02:57 <oerjan> (um do you need any more hints?)
13:03:29 <Taneb> That is fine, thanks :)
13:06:19 <Taneb> (considering I have an exam in about a week, I decided it's time I ought to do some number theory revision)
13:07:38 <myname> okay, dancing kid looked easier than i thought
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13:28:42 <fizzie> fungot: Remember to behave yourself when you're alone here.
13:28:42 <fungot> fizzie: thanks! dig the papers: they're excellent. you can do these reports in lisp better than perl
13:29:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:14:43 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think of London?
14:14:44 <fungot> FireFly: ( or an analogue), and one blanket k-line... i shouldn't say that; there are districts of new britain where polish is spoken extensively, appears on signs, etc., have a nice one
14:15:06 <FireFly> Lots of Polish in London, eh
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14:25:17 <Jafet> > (48^2 - 17^2, 84^2 - 71^2)
14:30:26 <J_Arcane> That's an interesting mathematical property.
14:32:11 <fizzie> FireFly: They do say it's a very multicultural place.
14:33:02 <Jafet> (Also next year 2016 = 54^2-30^2, if you allow 45^2-03^2.)
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17:44:22 <AndoDaan> I'm not comfortable with the apostrophs.
17:44:47 <AndoDaan> That's probably the french or dutch word for apostrophies.
17:45:05 <Taneb> It's a catapostrophy
17:46:49 <boily> AndoDaan: «'» is «apostrophe» hth
17:47:53 <AndoDaan> It does. Idk, I think I feel like the e is silent. But it's not in English, right?
17:49:36 <boily> in English it ends with an /i/, whereas French's is silent.
17:55:31 <Taneb> English does horrible things to loanwords
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17:58:32 <nys> guardian <-> warden
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20:09:19 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){char a[6][9]; printf("%d\n", (int)sizeof a[0]);}
20:09:20 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:2:29: warning: missing terminating " character [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c:2:1: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/a.c:3:1: warning: missing terminating " character [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c:3:1: error: missing terminating " character \ /tmp/a.c:3:1: error: expected expression at
20:09:36 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){char a[6][9]; printf("%d\\n", (int)sizeof a[0]);}
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20:34:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have a 140 MB tif pano from my phone here, will scale and upload as jpg shortly
20:34:52 <Vorpal> Some seams, and I don't think I got the FOV right (it didn't apparently report it, and I don't have a 360 pano to test with)
20:36:25 <Vorpal> Vorpal, I have a Xperia Z2 nowdays, and it has a 20 MP sensor, so the image size is absurd. It is actually a pretty good camera for a phone.
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20:49:25 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie https://www.dropbox.com/s/12bapqf1dphm3nz/vargavidderna_h%C3%B6gmossen.jpg?dl=0
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22:41:24 <zzo38> Is there card in Magic: the Gathering to change artifacts into lands?
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22:59:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you want to keep the abilities or the artifacts? or is just overwriting the artifact with a copy of a land ok?
22:59:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there was something to turn stuff to lands, but very rare
22:59:36 <b_jonas> turning permanents to artifacts or enchantments or creatures is much easier
23:00:32 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=!song+of+the+dryads
23:01:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: ah, nice. it's probaly not the only one because that's a very new card
23:03:20 <b_jonas> there are card that animate lands of course, that's much easier
23:05:20 <b_jonas> maybe there wasn't any older way to turn an artifact to a land while keeping its abilities?
23:12:53 <zzo38> I mean keeping the ability of the artifact too
23:13:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I haven't found anything other than Song then
23:14:11 <b_jonas> unless of course the artifact has only activated abilities that you can just copy with Kraj
23:15:15 <b_jonas> or with Quicksilver Elemental if you prefer
23:21:37 <zzo38> What do those cards are doing?
23:23:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: Quicksilver Elemental can borrow all activated abilities from a creature in play, until end of turn. Together with some copying and type changing effects, you can use it to have any permanent borrow all activated abilities of any other permanent.
23:23:46 <zzo38> But that isn't the same as the ability belonging to the original card.
23:25:24 <b_jonas> But if the artifact doesn't have abilities other than activated abilities, it might be enough for what you're trying to do, because you can often (but probably not always) copy the rest of the state from the artifact to a land after you've copied the activated abilities.
23:27:17 <zzo38> It does have only activated abilities but that is not good enough.
23:28:16 <b_jonas> there's also Volrath's Shapeshifter, I don't really know how that works, so you figure out whether it can help you
23:29:39 <b_jonas> hmm no, Volrath's Shapeshifter doesn't help because it can't use text from non-creatures
23:30:01 <b_jonas> what if it copies Dryad Arbor?
23:31:13 <b_jonas> it probably doesn't help, but you figure out for yourself
23:31:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: meanwhile, have you seen Droidikar?
23:32:21 <zzo38> I have not. What does that mean?
23:33:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/orb/checklist.php Droidikar is a fan-made Magic: the Gathering set presented as a crossword, with the theme of Darths and Droids, a Star Wars parody screencap webcomic. Spoilers: http://tinyurl.com/q3s859n
23:35:14 <zzo38> Do you have a proper URL not "tinyurl"?
23:36:23 <b_jonas> spoilers: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=8270
23:36:33 <b_jonas> I truncated it to fit it in a channel topic
23:37:20 <b_jonas> if ais returns, we'll have to tell him, I'm quite sure he'll like it
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00:12:44 <zzo38> If you have Candelabra and you can make a artifact into a land
00:14:20 <zzo38> Then it can untap itself too.
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02:00:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41566&oldid=39270 * Rottytooth * (+21) adding Folders
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02:02:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41567 * Rottytooth * (+157) creating stub
02:03:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:2015]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41568 * Rottytooth * (+11) Created page with "{{Yearcat}}"
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02:30:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41569&oldid=41566 * Rottytooth * (+112)
02:30:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41570&oldid=41569 * Rottytooth * (-47)
02:31:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rottytooth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41572&oldid=41570 * Rottytooth * (-30)
02:31:59 <vanila> zzo38, I got stuck more though
02:32:08 <vanila> can you hint me on super megzaxeux ascii world
02:32:34 <zzo38> What part now you get stuck on?
02:32:47 <vanila> i can blow up the red stuff to get the switch
02:32:52 <vanila> so I can hit all 3 switches
02:33:04 <vanila> but there is a thing in front of them so I cant get the flashy diamond
02:33:13 <vanila> i think its got something to do with using teleoporters but I didn't work out what
02:36:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41573&oldid=41567 * Rottytooth * (+263)
02:39:13 <zzo38> OK just a minute please
02:41:14 <zzo38> Do you know the number "1" and "2" if you touch them you will also be teleported.
02:41:51 <vanila> yeah i can get teleported but I dont know how to use it to avoid the thing falling infront of the path to diamond
02:42:50 <zzo38> A green slime-blob can also block the path of pushers moving to block the path
02:44:05 <vanila> i knew bthat but I haven't an idea how to apply it
02:44:13 <vanila> I think I got an idea now
02:51:39 <zzo38> Remember that it is possible to create multiple save files if you need it. Push F3 it ask what file to save, F4 ask what file to restore; or you can also push F9 to save in the last file or F10 to restore the last file.
03:26:19 <J_Arcane> sometimes i wonder if the real reason English has a reputation as being 'easy to learn' is just because English speakers are culturally less prone to correcting people's speech, at least in person and especially to non-native speakers.
03:26:54 <zzo38> Or, maybe because there is a lot of books printed in English
03:27:17 <J_Arcane> Finns correct you *constantly* if you attempt to speak the language.
03:27:20 <elliott> J_Arcane: they are? I see people correct english constantly
03:27:23 <elliott> is it even more common in other languages?
03:28:17 <J_Arcane> elliott: Online? I see piles of English correction, sure, but in person? I have almost never, ever seen someone correct a non-native speaker.
03:28:51 <elliott> people are jerks on the internet
03:29:58 <elliott> I hear finns are jerks too though.
03:30:32 <int-e> elliott: I would rather suspect that finns are people.
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04:56:29 <Sgeo> Are these temperatures F or C? C is impossible https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN2nH8zoz3A
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06:17:22 <Sgeo> If I get mismailed a letter, is it legal for me to put it in the correct recipient's mailbox?
06:18:06 <Sgeo> Looks like it might be a paycheck (but I'm not about to open it to see)
06:22:49 <Sgeo> Also not the channel I meant to ask, but whatever
06:23:02 <coppro> Sgeo: I can't think of why it wouldn't be
06:24:02 <int-e> because of things like "Only the United States Postal Service may use mailboxes for delivery without paying postage (Flyers, magazines, notes, letters, etc. found in or on mailboxes may be charged postage due)."
06:31:15 <Sgeo> "If the mailpiece is delivered to the wrong location: Don't erase or mark over the information, or write any type of endorsement on the mailpiece. Place the item back in the mailbox or hand the item back to your mailperson."
06:31:42 <Sgeo> I could leave it in my mailbox overnight and if it's still there when I wake up at noon, then maybe knock on neighbor's door or something
06:32:20 <coppro> a) who is going to care
06:32:22 <coppro> b) who is going to notice
06:33:07 <Sgeo> a) Paycheck. The intended recipient will care if e doesn't receive it
06:33:20 <coppro> if you stick it in eir mailbox, e will
06:33:27 <Sgeo> (Well, probably paycheck)
06:34:42 <int-e> http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593601 is relevant but inconclusive
06:35:22 <int-e> at least they agree that http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/83/1725 is not applicable.
06:40:00 * Sgeo puts it back in own mailbox, address facing out
06:40:15 <Sgeo> Tomorrow can try to talk to neighbor or something
06:41:38 <int-e> this system of putting outgoing mail in one's own mailbox is so weird :)
06:42:16 <Sgeo> I generally put outgoing mail in the large mailbox outside
06:42:28 <Sgeo> I don't know if mailperson will actually look at incoming mailbox
06:42:46 <coppro> Sgeo: just put it in the person's mailbox
06:42:55 <coppro> int-e found the relevant statute and it would not apply
06:43:02 <Sgeo> I don't think it's actually physically possible
06:43:56 <int-e> coppro: is it the 18 U.S.C. § 1725, or is there something else?
06:44:26 <int-e> (I like reading legalese, it's an esoteric english slang.)
06:44:57 <coppro> http://agora.qoid.us/current_slr.txt
06:48:08 <int-e> wow, "proscribe" is an awful word. It means the opposite of what I'd naively expect.
06:49:00 * int-e puts it into an inflamable drawer, then puts a match to the whole.
06:51:09 <coppro> int-e: it's the opposite of prescribe
06:51:56 <shachaf> and o is the opposite of e
06:52:56 <int-e> e is a crossed out o? *squints*
06:57:13 <HackEgo> 742) <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
06:59:35 <int-e> the members of ∅ enjoy absolute freedom
07:00:30 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
07:02:06 <HackEgo> [U+00F8 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE]
07:03:30 <int-e> in a paper we recently finalized the typesetters managed to use Ø instead of ∅ in one place (out of several), that was strange.
07:05:36 <int-e> (Why they have to take perfectly good latex and reset it in another program I'll never know [ok, I'm afraid I do know; they accept submissions in Word, too]. Springer...)
07:10:06 <int-e> they must have a crazy workflow, too; they seem to cut out figures (and possibly symbols) from PDF, but I suspect the text is produced by taking the main body of the latex document and then running strategical search&replace commands...
07:11:15 <int-e> (I hope there is *some* automation, but there were several systematic errors in the first draft that indicate that a lot of manual labor is also involved)
07:11:32 <int-e> but oh well. not very esoteric :)
07:20:50 <coppro> xkcd is pretty good today
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07:22:56 <int-e> but that's wednesday's xkcd
07:22:59 <coppro> int-e: i regret nothing
07:23:53 <int-e> Unless the absence of today's comic is an artistic message that I fail to grasp.
07:24:41 <int-e> oh. sorry, browser mishap
07:25:31 <int-e> I used to be able to visit xkcd by opening a new tab and searching for xkcd in the history - now there's a danger of activating an active xkcd tab instead ...
07:26:14 <int-e> ... which won't be reloaded in the course of this user interaction.
07:26:36 <int-e> Foiled by software.
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07:28:49 <int-e> paper reloaded, hmm
08:14:33 <Taneb> Hehe, today's Freefall amuses me
08:15:34 <int-e> Hmmmmm. I'll see it on Monday, I think.
08:16:35 <int-e> (Since Freefall has no easy way of bookmarking the current comic.)
08:17:44 <int-e> ... never mind me.
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08:20:56 <int-e> (I need to stop talking about my habits so much (Uh I'm doing it again, STOP! (Uh I give up. (Really, I should stop doing this all the time. (AAARGH!)))))
08:30:53 <mitchs> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6i-xQyesc
08:34:29 <mitchs> it's from spaceballs, hopefully isn't blocked in any countries
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08:47:34 <Solace> my schools filter.somehow got on my computer
08:47:45 <Solace> through a Google signup
08:48:35 <Solace> all of my data and bots code has been fucking deleted
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08:51:11 <Solace> I signed into Google at school and idk I think the accounts got linked to school
08:51:21 <Solace> and when I signed in at home
08:51:39 <Solace> The schools filter system for "innapropriate" things
08:51:48 <Solace> deleted everything I had
08:52:11 <zzo38> File a complaint, then.
08:52:35 <Solace> no one listens to.students here
08:56:20 <int-e> . o O ( Assuming this is real; at this point, I'd turn off the computer, try to find a clean one that can read the hard disk, scan it for recoverable data. )
08:56:54 <Solace> it is real and I'm crying
08:57:26 <int-e> Because anything you'll do on the computer will just make a recovery (if possible at all) harder.
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08:58:43 <zzo38> If you cannot file a complaint, then file a lawsuit.
08:58:52 <int-e> (instead of another computer, booting from an USB key with some Linux or similar *may* be an option. There must be special recovery images around, actually.)
09:00:25 <Solace> I'm just in shock this is retarded its taken me so long to compile this
09:00:55 * Solace dies inside then sues school
09:02:07 <int-e> (I've never really had this problem, so I actually don't really know what tools to use beyond making an image of the disk (for which I'd use dd.))
09:04:51 <Solace> they use a deepfreeze and I I CAN'T DO SHIT
09:05:09 <Solace> ok school is in a few days ill speak with an administrator
09:05:52 <zzo38> Although before filing any complaints or lawsuits or whatever you should try to check what is happening if possible, and then you can figure out what happened. If your school put malware into your computer then to complain to them, if that doesn't help then sue them and/or to put in newspaper report.
09:05:57 <int-e> with some luck you'll not be the only one... though I'm not sure "luck" is the right term here.
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09:08:32 <int-e> mitchs: heh I actually own the movie on DVD (though movie companies will disagree with that phrase)
09:16:53 <mitchs> growing up, i watched it on a bootleg VHS on a big tv that took several minutes to reach normal brightness levels after being turned on
09:17:15 * mitchs is approximately 100 years old
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09:48:12 <oerjan> @tell J_Arcane (10a+b)^2-(10c+d)^2 == (10b+a)^2-(10d+c)^2 <=> (10a+b)^2-(10b+a)^2 == (10c+d)^2-(10d+c)^2 <=> (11a+11b)(9a-9b) == (11c+11d)(9c-9d) <=> (a+b)(a-b) == (c+d)(c-d) <=> a^2-b^2 == c^2-d^2
09:49:56 <oerjan> @tell J_Arcane hm one conclusion is that if two pairs of digits work, they work in all (big enough) bases
09:51:08 <oerjan> > (0x48^2 - 0x17^2, 0x84^2-0x71^2)
09:53:45 <oerjan> @tell Jafet <Jafet> (Also next year 2016 = 54^2-30^2, if you allow 45^2-03^2.) <-- hm that's because (3,4,5) is a pythagorean triple...
09:59:22 <oerjan> > [(a,b,c,d,x)|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
09:59:23 <lambdabot> [(0,0,0,0,0),(0,0,1,1,0),(0,0,2,2,0),(0,0,3,3,0),(0,0,4,4,0),(0,0,5,5,0),(0,...
09:59:47 <oerjan> > [(a,b,c,d,x)|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],a/=c,[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
09:59:48 <lambdabot> [(0,0,1,1,0),(0,0,2,2,0),(0,0,3,3,0),(0,0,4,4,0),(0,0,5,5,0),(0,0,6,6,0),(0,...
10:00:10 <oerjan> > [(a,b,c,d,x)|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],a/=c,a/=b,[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
10:00:12 <lambdabot> [(0,3,4,5,-9),(0,4,3,5,-16),(1,4,7,8,-15),(1,5,5,7,-24),(1,7,4,8,-48),(2,6,7...
10:00:39 <oerjan> > length [(a,b,c,d,x)|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],a/=c,a/=b,[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
10:02:09 <oerjan> > [(10*a+b)^2-(10*c+d)^2|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],a/=c,a/=b,[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
10:02:10 <lambdabot> [-2016,-1209,-5888,-3024,-2015,-5565,-4032,-2016,1209,-1209,-5888,2016,2015,...
10:02:41 <oerjan> > [(10*a+b)^2-(10*c+d)^2|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],a>c,a/=b,[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
10:02:42 <lambdabot> [1209,2016,2015,1209,2016,3024,4032,3024,5888,5565,2015,5888,4032,5565]
10:03:13 <oerjan> > nub [(10*a+b)^2-(10*c+d)^2|[a,b,c,d]<-replicateM 4[0..9],a>c,a/=b,[x]<-[nub[a^2-b^2,c^2-d^2]]]
10:03:14 <lambdabot> [1209,2016,2015,3024,4032,5888,5565]
10:15:10 <oerjan> @tell nys <nys> guardian <-> warden <-- that's actually not english's fault, but a development in norman french
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13:00:36 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/munificent/vigil
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14:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41574&oldid=41488 * Rottytooth * (+14) /* F */ added folders
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14:23:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Rottytooth * uploaded "[[File:Folders HelloWorld.png]]": Hello, World sreenshot for Folders
14:25:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41576&oldid=41573 * Rottytooth * (+91)
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15:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41577 * AJF * (+421) Created page with "[https://github.com/munificent/vigil Vigil] is an esoteric programming language similar to Python, created by [Bob Nystrom, aka munificent](https://github.com/munificent) in 2..."
15:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41578&oldid=41577 * AJF * (-1) MediaWiki isn't Markdown ;)
15:12:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41579&oldid=41578 * AJF * (+19)
15:12:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41580&oldid=41579 * AJF * (+34)
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16:30:53 <vanila> corsee is a spamer please erase them
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16:34:18 <boily> spam spam spam spam ♪
16:36:21 <Taneb> Hmm, apparently I "obviously understand homogeneous transformations very well"
16:37:55 <Taneb> I actually have no idea how they work help
16:38:36 <Taneb> I have an exam involving them next week
16:39:19 <vanila> aren't they just normal matrices
16:39:26 <vanila> but at the end you divide each coordinate by the last one
16:39:40 * lambdabot smacks boily about with a large trout
16:40:06 <boily> (slapstick comedy)
16:58:41 <b_jonas> fungot, can you bribe the sanete?
16:58:41 <fungot> b_jonas: yes, but they could blame it to not do that? wouldn't that be
17:00:16 <Taneb> b_jonas, what's there "sanete"?
17:00:57 <b_jonas> `8-ball what's there "sanete"?
17:01:40 <Taneb> I... am ashamed of myself and will now go hide in a hole
17:17:48 <b_jonas> it's like a senate but less sane
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17:33:56 <Sgeo> Mail situation resolved perfectly. Went downstairs, saw mail truck, (after neighbor prompted me after I asked if mailperson was here) went to truck and talked to mailperson, who seemed distraught at the misplaced mail and thankful to me
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18:28:36 <J_Arcane> http://www.cracked.com/article_21940_5-mathematical-strategies-dominating-popular-kids-games.html/
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18:45:41 <vanila> http://yusuke.endoh.usesthis.com/
18:46:54 <vanila> "Recently I've become interested in Scala. It looks beautifully-crafted"
18:50:47 <boily> somebody please K-line, G-line and probably a few columns too corsee.
18:52:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:54:32 <oerjan> so can we assume fizzie has left now
18:54:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Home Alone 6: The horror of fungot | but often spelled correctly. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:55:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
18:55:41 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*corsee@84.78.20.*.
18:55:41 -!- oerjan has kicked corsee spammed me in private.
18:55:59 <fizzie> I have both left and arrived.
18:56:07 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
18:56:26 <fungot> olsner: you can still compile things efficiently. because it was used in making the hardware branchings visible to the compilation of some files ( i'm setting up gvim on this machine.
18:56:37 <fizzie> No, fungot is still where I left it.
18:56:38 <fungot> fizzie: you and your social contacts" can result in billiard balls breaking apart.
18:57:05 <oerjan> fizzie: so how's the weather in london
18:57:35 <fizzie> oerjan: Surprisingly fine.
18:57:40 <lambdabot> EGLL 021850Z 24008KT 210V270 CAVOK 05/01 Q1034 NOSIG
18:57:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Though it's supposed to rain tomorrow.
18:58:01 <vanila> https://github.com/mame/_
18:58:05 <vanila> does this count as esoteric?
18:58:18 <vanila> I think its just encoding each letter using n _'s for chr(n)
18:59:20 <oerjan> it's not esoteric as long as the script still needs to contain "require" hth
18:59:38 <oerjan> reverse runlength encoding :P
19:00:15 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
19:04:29 <oerjan> isn't there anything for ruby resembling that symbol-only encoding for javascript?
19:05:29 <oerjan> i suppose that depends on ruby having similarly crazy implicit conversions, but it _is_ a dynamically typed language so it doesn't seem out of the question
19:06:53 <vanila> The most evil and renowned esoteric programming language
19:06:54 <oerjan> hm "ruby symbols only" doesn't give obvious hits
19:08:03 <oerjan> i'm not sure that malbolge actually is the most evil esolang, although it's certainly up there
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19:08:44 <oerjan> i suppose that should be "down there"
19:08:55 <vanila> it looks like Endoh added a new quine to his crazy quine relay program for each day of the advent calendar
19:09:08 <boily> poll: on a scale of 1 to about ten, how would you rate the evilness of underload?
19:09:16 <oerjan> did he include malbolge twh
19:09:37 <vanila> I think that underload is actually similar to a normal programming language
19:09:46 <vanila> they're called "concatenative languages"
19:09:51 <vanila> and I don't really believe people program in them...
19:09:56 <oerjan> since i actually _can_ program in it
19:10:30 <Jafet> Category: Ruby derivatives
19:12:06 <vanila> hey they did BLC in it
19:12:14 <oerjan> vanila: pretty sure some do
19:12:26 <vanila> the 100 language quine
19:13:01 <oerjan> malbolge is probably too hard not the least because of the size limit
19:13:02 <Jafet> Endoh probably got wind of that from last ioccc
19:13:34 <vanila> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay/commit/4b9747e0b65753600a17f22ca867b6247e95366c
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19:14:10 <oerjan> underload should be easy to include in a quine relay
19:15:08 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
19:17:06 <vanila> http://hebrew.pwn.seccon.jp/nikud/hebrew-utf16le.html
19:19:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: of course. usually any one language is easy to include in a quine relay, because in all but one languages you can just use a single print statement
19:19:33 <oerjan> boily: let me extend the list very inaccurately for comparison: befunge 4, brainfuck 5, /// 6 and fueue 8
19:20:02 <oerjan> actually that might be unfair to befunge
19:20:16 <oerjan> well i did say inaccurately
19:22:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think malbolge might be one exception there.
19:24:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, some crazy obfu-languages can be exceptions
19:24:04 <b_jonas> like, even in underload you can't write a print statement printing unbalanced parens or something
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19:26:17 <vanila> How is Yusuko so AWESOME
19:28:17 <vanila> "LLVM to Befunge compiler"
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19:28:41 <vanila> https://github.com/shinh/beflisp/blob/master/beflisp.bef
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19:33:06 <vanila> I think its normal lisp except the brackets can go vertical using v ^
19:33:15 <vanila> https://github.com/shinh/beflisp/blob/master/fizzbuzz.l2d
19:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Rottytooth * uploaded "[[File:Folders 99bottles.png]]": 99 Bottles of Beer program for Folders language
19:35:02 <vanila> beflisp2d.bef is a joke extension of Lisp. You can use 2D S expression. See fizzbuzz.l2d for an example of 2D Lisp code.
19:35:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41582&oldid=41576 * Rottytooth * (+148) /* Examples */
19:46:43 <vanila> what do you mean by no
19:52:20 <AndoDaan> You're all assholes. Any language is esoteric. hth
19:52:39 <vanila> not every language is esoteric
19:52:42 <vanila> for example, lisp isn't
19:53:46 <AndoDaan> bah, is the way Godel constructed his number esoteric? yes. and it's basically lisp.
19:54:05 <vanila> its not lisp at all are you trolling
19:54:26 <vanila> hofstadder is a popular writer
19:54:51 <AndoDaan> Nah, you're probably right. I don't know enough to present a convincing argument.
19:56:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Rottytooth * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Folders 99bottles.png]]"
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20:11:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trinary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41584&oldid=38664 * 80.229.228.34 * (-23) not related
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20:56:29 <J_Arcane> vanila: I would say that Lisp is the least esoteric language with the largest reputation for being so anyway, while C is the most esoteric language with the least reputation for being so. ;)
21:04:57 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ulsmc/best_phishing_scam_ive_ever_seen_raising/
21:07:31 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I loved it
21:09:55 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Or, you know, you could just not click on attachments you don't know anything about ...
21:11:51 <vanila> how to not get hackked: Don't
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21:16:05 <J_Arcane> # of times I've clicked on an attachment in an email I did not specifically request since ever: 0
21:17:59 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Fri Jan 2 21:17:56 2015
21:18:19 <fizzie> (That's what makes it official, right?)
21:18:59 <vanila> you're just ignoring a real threat
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21:27:14 <boily> fizzie's being threatened by time?
21:27:45 <int-e> Damn, I'm too old. I'd have circled the leading MZ in the .TXT file ;-)
21:29:21 <int-e> time is marching on without mercy.
21:30:30 <int-e> J_Arcane: You're better than I. I receive PDFs in e-mails all the time, and one of my mail clients is the clicky GUI type.
21:33:19 <int-e> Good one though, I wonder how they encode that meta information in the zip file.
21:34:29 <J_Arcane> int-e: Well, that's probably another factor: I have only ever uses web-mail clients save for a few brief stints, originally by necessity, then out of habit after far too many exploits that didn't even need user interaction to execute (Outlook was infamous for this, maybe still is)
21:34:36 <oerjan> i feel so safe for still using (al)pine
21:34:54 <J_Arcane> oerjan: Probably even smarter than me. :D
21:35:05 <oerjan> of course this makes it a chore whenever someone _does_ send an attachment.
21:35:20 <oerjan> (that i want to open.)
21:36:08 <oerjan> J_Arcane: part of the problem is my email is running on a remote host which i'm accessing through putty with no real gui connection
21:37:32 <oerjan> which means my way of seeing attachments tends to involve copying them to my website and opening them in IE
21:37:47 <oerjan> (the website is also on that remote host)
21:38:32 <oerjan> elliott: that would involve (getting and) starting an X server which sounds even more annoying.
21:40:33 <int-e> J_Arcane: Hmm, if it were web based I wouldn't write "GUI".
21:41:32 <int-e> (I meant thunderbird)
21:41:49 <J_Arcane> int-e: Yeah, that's what I mean. My relationship with GUI desktop mail programs has largely been limited to a few abortive attempts to tolerate Thunderbird or Kmail, and a brief period where I used Apple Mail a lot.
21:41:57 <J_Arcane> Mostly I can't stand the damn things anyway.
21:42:57 <int-e> Well, it's a failure of mine of using mutt effectively with several accounts and mail folders.
21:43:59 <oerjan> `addquote <int-e> (I need to stop talking about my habits so much (Uh I'm doing it again, STOP! (Uh I give up. (Really, I should stop doing this all the time. (AAARGH!)))))
21:44:01 <HackEgo> 1229) <int-e> (I need to stop talking about my habits so much (Uh I'm doing it again, STOP! (Uh I give up. (Really, I should stop doing this all the time. (AAARGH!)))))
21:44:47 <int-e> oerjan: thanks for the reminder
21:44:53 <oerjan> int-e: btw my usual way of checking freefall is to type fr in the address bar
21:45:17 <int-e> oerjan: but that would *only* give me the latest comic.
21:45:21 <oerjan> then arrow down if it isn't autocompleted
21:45:31 <int-e> whereas I want the comic that I most recently read.
21:46:23 <oerjan> int-e: oh i guess if you're reading in batches...
21:46:24 <int-e> (I do the address bar thing for xkcd ... because xkcd has no story arcs)
21:47:01 <oerjan> since i check it every time it comes out that isn't a problem for me
21:47:30 <int-e> oerjan: The irony is, I usually check the comics as soon as I know there's a new one to read; but sometimes, I do forget about it. And actually seeing the previous comic again is good for remembering context.
21:47:39 <oerjan> the main comic i read batchwise, for some reason, is smbc.
21:47:52 <Taneb> oerjan, actually, same
21:48:06 <oerjan> which means i read it backwards, since it too has no story arcs
21:49:06 <Taneb> Well, satw has a slower update schedule than the schedule of me remembering it exists
21:49:23 <Taneb> Which means I read it serially in practise
21:50:48 <oerjan> int-e: i do tend to ocdally open the previous comic in another tab whenever i check a comic
21:50:58 <oerjan> just in case i've missed one
21:54:03 <Taneb> I don't have any sophisticated system for reading webcomics, I just remember that one exists and type in the URL
21:54:30 <Taneb> I also feel like I ought to go to bed soon
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22:20:05 <int-e> hehe. "If the current trend continues then 2015 will be one of the most unproductive years in modern history."
22:20:45 <shachaf> Taneb: olist has the worst url hth
22:20:49 <int-e> (paraphrasing from an article published at noon yesterday)
22:21:03 <shachaf> the url for the current olist comic is http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
22:21:28 <int-e> (and by 'yesterday' I mean January 1st)
22:21:49 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.
22:21:50 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Fri Jan 2 23:21:48 2015
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22:22:14 <int-e> I wish I had had that idea earlier...
22:22:19 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
22:22:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/bdsmreclist \ wisdom/danddreclist \ wisdom/kallisti \ wisdom/list \ wisdom/olist \ wisdom/slist
22:23:08 <int-e> Finding actually useful wisdom in HackEgo is a bit of a surprise.
22:23:26 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
22:23:33 <elliott> vanila: not in #esoteric, that's for sure
22:23:40 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
22:26:02 <int-e> `` echo 'In a cruel twist of fate, vanila has come to #esoteric looking for wisdom.' > wisdom/vanila
22:26:09 <HackEgo> In a cruel twist of fate, vanila has come to #esoteric looking for wisdom.
22:26:25 <shachaf> slashlearn is forgotten once again
22:26:35 <shachaf> gotta give that thing a catchier name
22:26:49 <int-e> shachaf: at least I remembered not to use `learn
22:28:04 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/looking for/in search of/' wisdom/vanila
22:30:15 <shachaf> i sense a soul in search of wisdom
22:30:29 <int-e> that rings a bell. Diablo 1?
22:31:17 <shachaf> (Not that I ever played Diablo 1.)
22:31:34 <int-e> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:32:05 <oerjan> `learn 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:32:08 <HackEgo> Learned '1': 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:32:29 <oerjan> `learn The 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:32:30 <HackEgo> Learned '1': The 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:33:17 <int-e> shachaf: the Haskell naming convention suggests learn' ;-)
22:34:00 <int-e> (`learn' foobar And this is how we learned about frotz and xyzzy.)
22:34:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learn': not found
22:34:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ': not found
22:35:04 <oerjan> int-e: haskell would have a learnBy which takes a ridiculously general second argument that you need another function to construct the most useful case of
22:35:05 <int-e> `` ln -s \' bin/quote
22:35:06 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `bin/quote': File exists
22:35:20 <int-e> `` ln -s quote bin/\'
22:35:29 <HackEgo> 1057) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
22:38:44 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 372 Sep 12 13:29 bin/?
22:38:52 <int-e> `` ls -l bin/wisdom
22:38:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/wisdom: No such file or directory
22:43:37 <oerjan> that's definitely one of the best quotes
22:45:24 <oerjan> <vanila> HI <-- hm i wonder if corsee went after people saying "hi" (i did too) on the assumption they'd be newbies and not channel ops
22:46:46 <oerjan> boily's case doesn't fit
22:47:14 <int-e> I didn't get spammed *feels left out*
22:48:04 <oerjan> int-e: you weren't saying anything
22:48:35 <int-e> Yes, I know. Sleep tends to do that to me.
22:48:37 <oerjan> boily: did you say anything before corsee spammed you?
22:48:59 <elliott> (feel free to /msg it instead)
22:53:03 <Sgeo> I think we can all agree with ClickHole that the past year was the best 2014 ever
22:54:44 <ais523> `2014 this is the best 2014 ever
22:55:14 <HackEgo> cat: bin/2015: No such file or directory
22:55:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "2014" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:55:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "2014" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:56:52 <oerjan> `` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed -i 's/2014/205/;s/=/!=/' bin/2015
22:56:54 <nortti> `run sed -i 's/2014/$(basename "$0")/'
22:56:59 <int-e> Sgeo: I see you're not believing in many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics.
22:57:01 <nortti> `run sed -i 's/2014/$(basename "$0")/' bin/2014
22:57:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "205" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:57:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:57:38 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/2014 bin/2015': No such file or directory
22:57:47 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/2015': No such file or directory
22:57:47 <nortti> `` ln bin/2014 bin/2015
22:58:08 <oerjan> nortti: THAT'S NOT WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO
22:58:29 <int-e> 2015 should be backward-compatible with 2014
22:58:31 <nortti> oerjan: WHAT IS IT SUPPOSED TO DO, THEN?
22:58:38 <oerjan> `` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed -i 's/=/!=/' bin/2015
22:58:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:59:40 <int-e> oh, it has a one year deprecation cycle built in, works for me.
22:59:50 <Sgeo> Unless you're using the Go playground
23:02:29 <int-e> and ... 2016 could be if [ $$($(date +%Y) % 2) == 0 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; fi
23:02:32 -!- adu has joined.
23:02:36 <int-e> but lets not get ahead of ourselves.
23:02:53 <myname> so, 2018 will be 2014?
23:04:05 <int-e> it's "designed" to be compatible with 2014 ins 2014 and 2015; compatible with 2015 in 2014, 2015 and 2016, and disagree afterwards.
23:06:30 <int-e> where "ins", of course, is the plural of "in".
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23:11:00 <nortti> are other plurals ons, tos, froms, ats?
23:11:52 <nortti> unders, behinds, ins fronts ofs?
23:12:11 <boily> at is irregular, its plural is it.
23:12:56 <nortti> that's an interesting mutation
23:13:11 <nortti> what is its etymology?
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23:18:13 <boily> nortti: well, you see, there are birds and flowers...
23:18:37 <nortti> this is going to be an interesting one
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23:21:22 <boily> and a horse, and a watermelon eventually, but only in the later chapters.
23:22:22 <boily> (the fruit was censored during a few centuries by the Church.)
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23:27:55 <int-e> boily: http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/010813.html "Well that really beats everything! What kind of perverse smut are you brats drawing on our school's wall?"
23:28:31 <boily> bwah ah ah ah ah :D
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23:43:31 <Sgeo> Blah, I don't see an API for Google Maps search
23:43:44 <Sgeo> What I need is an API for transport information
23:44:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't need Google
23:44:55 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:45:40 <Sgeo> Actually, yeah, I want Google
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00:06:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
00:06:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b corsee!*@*.
00:06:26 -!- elliott has kicked corsee corsee.
00:06:27 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
00:06:39 <ais523> I assume something happened in PM?
00:06:43 <elliott> I was hoping I could get some spam too
00:06:54 <ais523> why would you spam people with fish webcams anyway
00:07:03 <elliott> it was good. I'm glad I clicked the link
00:07:09 <elliott> the page has christmas lights and fish webcams on it
00:07:19 <elliott> I was expecting from the link text it would be some porn webcam thing but instead it's just fishes
00:07:24 <elliott> it doesn't even have ads or anything
00:07:58 <vanila> "give me more fish webcams"
00:08:17 <elliott> did you not get linked to a fish webcam
00:08:22 <elliott> maybe oerjan changed the link on me......
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00:25:18 <Melvar> int-e: What a particularly good translation.
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01:05:44 <zzo38> I think the ar and cpio archive formats aren't very good. Nevertheless ar is still used.
01:06:47 <zzo38> They will include owner/group ID and file modes even if they aren't useful or if not applicable to the operating system or application in use.
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01:14:15 <int-e> they've been caught in a tar pit.
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01:15:30 <Jafet> Now I want to make a turing complete extension of tar
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01:15:54 <zzo38> Hamster archive format is much simpler, has no limit to filename length (although the recommended limit is 50), and are concatenatable. Here is the specification: Consists if a null-terminated filename, the size as a 32-bit "PDP-endian" integer, and then the data. To add another file, just concatenate it onto the end.
01:17:14 * int-e adds a 4.1GiB file ...
01:18:15 <Melvar> That’s going to lose the MAC attributes, too.
01:18:48 <int-e> such a format will just lead to a proliferation of naming schemes for metadata pseudo-files.
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01:19:43 <int-e> (Rock Ridge extensions?)
01:20:04 <zzo38> The thing is if you don't need any metadata or if the metadata is application-specific and therefore not suitable for a common format.
01:21:48 <int-e> I just don't agree that this format is better than cpio. It has different shortcomings...
01:22:32 <int-e> If people would always be using perfect solutions, XML would never have been used for data exchange.
01:23:12 <zzo38> XML has its own problems of course
01:23:21 <zzo38> Although, it depend what kind of data you are trying to store, too.
01:23:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Rottytooth * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Folders HelloWorld.png]]"
01:27:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41586&oldid=41582 * Rottytooth * (+156) /* Instructions */ added alt type list
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01:45:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41587&oldid=41586 * Rottytooth * (+207) /* Hello World */ added detail
01:50:38 <FireFly> And here I thought a "folders" esolang would be http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/symlinks/index.php
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01:52:30 <callforjudgement> zzo38: there are a lot of problems caused by files whose sizes don't fit into 32-bit integers
01:53:36 <vanila> maybe people shouldn't make such large files
01:54:43 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1135/ - are spiders TC?
01:54:44 <zzo38> FireFly: I don't know why it is PDP-endian.
01:55:26 <int-e> must be a compromise.
01:55:34 <shachaf> 13:18 <shachaf> http://www.edgarmcherly.com/spider_rumor.htm
01:56:17 <zzo38> callforjudgement: You could perhaps add multiple blocks with the same name to make large files, if the application needs it.
01:57:36 <int-e> shachaf: yummy! "Come on, eat your breakfast." "I can't, I'm stuffed already."
01:58:42 <int-e> (this is just a cruel joke on all people with arachnophobia...)
02:00:56 <int-e> I wonder whether there was ever a poll about it. "Have you ever eaten a spider in your sleep? How often did this happen in the last year." with 99 participants staring blankly in answer and one getting all excited and explaining that he has eaten 800 spiders in the last year alone...
02:02:48 <int-e> Or, less sinister, that they had a small spider farm with 800 individuals and one night they were all gone, thanking the interviewer for finally clearing up that mystery.
02:06:27 <zzo38> I might say I don't know if polled about such a question.
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02:06:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever eaten a spider in your sleep? How often did this happen in the last year.
02:10:08 <vanila> i dont think we eat spiders
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03:14:19 <Sgeo> I assume that I have no reason to expect Google to expose information that I want as a nice AP
03:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PureStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41588&oldid=35474 * 84.248.179.135 * (+0)
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05:14:14 <Sgeo> And... only Chrome supports the HTML element I want
05:14:20 <Sgeo> Well, time to use jQuery UI I guess
05:15:55 <Sgeo> ...neither does jQuery UI
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05:18:24 <Sgeo> I can just use HTML5 stuff to prototype
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05:39:24 <coppro> what is happening my IRC is silent
05:39:54 <Sgeo> <input type="date"> and <input type="time">
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06:02:21 <Sgeo> Should I separate fields in a <form> with <br> or is there a cleaner way?
06:02:34 <zzo38> I don't like the klugy Planeswalker rules in Magic: the Gathering and believe that among other things, it should be treated as a player instead of using strange damage redirection rules (this player is its controller's teammate, does not normally get a turn, owns whatever its controller owns, has the same zones, can control its own things), and that its abilities should require tapping.
06:03:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: I always used <br> or <p>...</p>, or occasionally even <ul>
06:04:25 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that they originally wanted planeswalker cards to be another player but didn't because they couldn't choose anything. So, its controller makes all of their choices instead (unless the card says otherwise), would work, I think.
06:05:07 * Sgeo gets lazy and just slaps style attributes on stuff
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06:18:17 <Sgeo> Starting to think Google Maps is created in Australia
06:18:25 <Sgeo> So much documentation uses that as a default location
06:18:38 <Jafet> That is actually true
06:23:46 <Jafet> (according to http://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/sydney/)
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07:17:37 <Sgeo> Um. Javascript does the sucky thing with closures and loop indexes, right?
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07:27:24 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, what happens if a spell has more than one Epic ability?
07:29:00 <coppro> zzo38: that can't happen. but you can resolve multiple epic spells, and when that happens, you get copies of both
07:29:07 <coppro> there is nothing that would make them mutually exclusive
07:29:51 <zzo38> I know that but it isn't what I was asking.
07:30:38 <coppro> well to answer your question precisely, by the principle of explosion, anything
07:30:55 <zzo38> I mean if a single spell has multiple Epic abilities. Would one of these happen (and which one)? [a] It is the same as one Epic ability. [b] You get two copies, each with no Epic ability. [c] You get two copies, each with one Epic ability; these copies would then each create a copy with no Epic ability.
07:31:43 <coppro> the question isn't well-defined, though.
07:33:17 <coppro> the game rules don't have an answer for "what would happen?" because it cannot
07:36:50 <zzo38> But if a new card is made up then it might be possible.
07:36:55 <shachaf> zzo38: You mean if a card said e.g. "Epic. Epic."?
07:37:31 <coppro> zzo38: True, but in such a case, they would consider the "Epic. Epic." interaction and devise the rules appropriate.
07:37:48 <shachaf> "copy this spell except for its epic ability" is unclear when there's more than one epic ability.
07:38:04 <shachaf> I think if such a card was printed they'd amend the rules to clarify this.
07:38:31 <shachaf> But in this sense the rules aren't quite comprehensive.
07:38:40 <shachaf> You should write to them and ask them to clarify this point.
07:38:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I also thought it is unclear when there is more than one.
07:38:55 <coppro> they are comprehensive
07:39:16 <coppro> they do not cover situations which cannot occur
07:39:18 <shachaf> They cover every printed card, but not every printable card using existing keywords.
07:40:14 <zzo38> If you programmed a computer to follow the rules of Magic: the Gathering, what will be done in such a case even if there are no such cards?
07:41:16 <shachaf> When interpreting rule 702.49a, perhaps I'd insert a check that a card had only one epic ability.
07:41:27 <shachaf> So such a card would simply be invalid.
07:41:45 <zzo38> I would just make rule [c] applicable.
07:42:05 <zzo38> I don't know if that is what the existing rules actually mean, though, for sure!!!
07:42:49 <coppro> again, it doesn't matter, they don't mean anything in this scenario
07:43:10 <coppro> you have a faulty premise
07:43:10 <shachaf> Are Epic spells even good?
07:43:25 <coppro> shachaf: Enduring Ideal saw play, and Eternal Dominion is hilariou
07:44:06 <shachaf> The way cards refer to themselves by name is awful.
07:44:10 <shachaf> Why would you even do that?
07:45:19 <shachaf> Have any of y'all played Prismata?
07:45:32 <coppro> I have not. I have met one of the designers though.
07:45:46 <Sgeo> I haven't played against a human yet
07:45:54 <Sgeo> Did beat Adept bot once
07:46:34 <Sgeo> No, weaker, I think
07:47:05 <Sgeo> It's listed just below 'Basic bot' saying "Improved defense"
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07:49:43 <zzo38> Once as a kind of joke I made up a card that only has Epic ability and does nothing else.
07:51:24 <shachaf> zzo38: How about Epic Sorcery -- Arcane?
07:52:39 <shachaf> Er, Epic isn't a supertype.
07:52:51 <shachaf> Sorcery -- Arcane, with only the ability Epic
07:57:05 <zzo38> What would that do?
07:57:35 <shachaf> I've never used Arcane spells either.
07:57:45 <shachaf> it would probably be pretty bad hth
07:59:25 <shachaf> Sgeo: I will play a game with you if you want.
07:59:33 <Sgeo> I'm Sgeo on Prismata
08:02:02 <zzo38> You should have to choose the format too (if possible)?
08:03:49 <Sgeo> shachaf: don't assume I know what I;m doing'
08:04:54 <zzo38> Format such as Constructed/Limited as well as what sets are being played.
08:05:31 <shachaf> Yes, we chose the default.
08:05:45 <shachaf> There is no Constructed in Prismata. One doesn't build decks.
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08:08:18 <Sgeo> shachaf is probably delusion if he thinks that's true
08:09:00 <shachaf> I wasn't nearly aggressive enough, as usual.
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08:12:09 <Sgeo> ....Why isn't my Iceblade defeding
08:12:23 <Sgeo> Because it's not Blocker. WHy was I convinced it was
08:13:13 <Sgeo> Did I just lose a turn on time?
08:14:10 <shachaf> I thought I was in terrible shape but I didn't realize you stopped at 9 drones.
08:16:08 <Sgeo> Pretty sure I lost
08:16:46 <shachaf> Why did you build an Auride Core?
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08:18:09 <Sgeo> I think I couldn't think of anything else to do with my blue that turn
08:18:40 <shachaf> You were playing very aggressively, right?
08:18:48 <shachaf> Stopping at 9 drones to build attackers as soon as possible.
08:18:53 <Solace> what are you talking off
08:19:28 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you played this game? You might like it.
08:19:37 <shachaf> It requires Adobe Macromedia Shockwave Flash.
08:19:54 <Sgeo> shachaf: that requirement is why I haven't yet recommended it to a friend who I think would like it
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08:20:08 <Sgeo> Solace: Prismata
08:20:38 <Jafet> Would it play in gnash?
08:20:56 <shachaf> I don't know. Are you able to find out?
08:21:01 <shachaf> http://play.prismata.net/?demo
08:22:53 <Solace> I had a back up of my server
08:25:00 <Jafet> I can try later, but I'm guessing this game uses hardware accelerated graphics
08:34:49 <Solace> how big is the lambdabot library
08:36:18 <shachaf> Sgeo: Do you want to play another game?
08:36:29 <Sgeo> shachaf: I should probably sleep soon
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09:12:30 <Solace> what woukd you do if you got your house swooced?
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12:22:31 <zzo38> Are you allowed to activate an Equip ability if the permanent that has it is not an artifact or equipment for some reason?
12:23:32 <Jafet> As expected, the prismata demo doesn't load in gnash
12:35:59 <zzo38> I expect that you are allowed to activate such an Equip ability, but that it won't get attached to anything if it is not a Equipment, Fortification, or Aura.
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13:14:48 <J_Arcane> God, the F# documentation is fucking Microsoft all the way ... :/
13:15:33 <J_Arcane> I miss Hoogle and Racket docs ...
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16:32:42 <myname> so... how about adding the perl wats of the c3 talk to the esolang page?
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16:42:38 <boily> mynamello. what's a wat?
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16:45:19 <myname> http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6243_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201412292200_-_the_perl_jam_exploiting_a_20_year-old_vulnerability_-_netanel_rubin.html
16:54:18 <myname> the talk is a few days old
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17:06:20 <Sgeo> Does using GitHub Pages imply that my client-side code is open-source?
17:06:29 <Lymia> Part of me died inside when i saw that.
17:06:34 <Lymia> gg ever Perl application ever.
17:06:51 <Lymia> Let's see if this guy has more.
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17:30:36 <lambdabot> CYQB 031700Z 03003KT 350V090 30SM FEW010 FEW095 SCT130 BKN220 M18/M24 A3067 RMK SC1AC1AC2CI4 SC TR PRESFR SLP393
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17:47:30 <Taneb> myname, what is his accent?
17:47:51 <myname> it was a bit hard to follow imo
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17:49:51 <lambdabot> LOWI 031720Z VRB02KT 6000 RA FEW005 SCT030 BKN045 02/02 Q1020 R08/19//95 NOSIG
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17:55:47 <lambdabot> EGLL 031750Z 04005KT 360V070 9999 BKN010 04/03 Q1023 TEMPO SCT012
17:56:54 <boily> bleh to you all with positive temperatures. humbug!
17:57:06 <lambdabot> EGLC 031750Z AUTO VRB03KT 9999 SCT010/// 05/03 Q1023
17:57:11 <fizzie> That's I guess technically closer.
17:57:33 <myname> i have bo idea what this stuff is
17:58:06 <fizzie> The four-letter codes are the ICAO airport identifiers.
17:58:06 <myname> wellx ää, i figured that out
17:58:20 <fizzie> EGLC and EGLL are London City and Heathrow, respectively.
17:58:56 <fizzie> (EG in general is something like Europe, Great Britain, I suppose, given that EF.. are in Finland and so on.)
17:59:25 <boily> E??? are Europe, with L??? being the other Europe.
17:59:44 <lambdabot> CYYC 031700Z 01009KT 5SM -SN OVC055 M19/M22 A3034 RMK SC8 SLP379
18:00:00 <lambdabot> CYUL 031700Z 04010KT 30SM OVC120 M12/M20 A3062 RMK AS8 SLP374
18:00:03 <coppro> how do I interpret this?
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18:00:48 <fizzie> 03 is the date, and 1700Z the time.
18:00:55 <boily> coppro: Calgary International Airport, report made on the third at 5:00pm UTC. winds of 9 knots coming from about North. ground visibility 5 miles.
18:01:15 <fizzie> I was going to continue, but boily has made me obsolete.
18:01:23 <boily> it's lightly snowing, cloud ceiling at 5,500'. it's currently -19 °C, dew point at -22.
18:01:37 <boily> fizzie: sorry, was typing and didn't see your reply...
18:02:35 <boily> atmospheric pressure calibrated for the aerodrome is at 30.62 inHg, clouds are altostratii, and sea level pressure is at 1037,4 hPa.
18:02:45 <fizzie> That's quite all right. I'm trying to do some dinner, anyway.
18:02:56 <boily> (is altostratii the correct plural of an altostratus?)
18:03:03 <boily> fizzie: oh! what are you cooking?
18:03:07 <myname> so ßuch stuff i don't care
18:03:12 <lambdabot> CYKF 031742Z AUTO 10013KT 1/2SM -SN VV008 M02/M03 A3008 RMK PRESFR SLP204
18:03:23 <coppro> what does the 'auto' mean?
18:03:36 <boily> myname: how do you manage to mistype an ß with an m???
18:03:51 <boily> coppro: that the report was made by an automated machine, with no human intervention.
18:03:52 <fizzie> boily: Nothing particularly interesting, just some pasta and tomato-based meat thing. I don't really know how this kitchen works yet, anyway.
18:04:15 <myname> boily: multiling beta keyboard for android with a german layout
18:05:31 <boily> myname: such is life.
18:06:05 <boily> coppro: weather doesn't look so good on your end. thing is it's going to subtly drift East and cover us tomorrow.
18:06:28 <myname> boily: i like it since it has bigger keys than hacker's keyboard while having symbols easily reachable
18:07:10 <boily> on my new phone, I'm still trying to type symbols as on my old one. damned muscle memory...
18:09:00 <coppro> boily: I'm going YCC -> YKF on Monday
18:10:50 <boily> I never went to either of those places. my West bound ends at around YYZ.
18:13:19 <shachaf> what's with canadian airport names starting with Y
18:13:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's too many airports and too few three-letter combinations so they started using riddiculous ones
18:14:08 <b_jonas> similarly too many airlines for two-alnum codes
18:15:24 <coppro> and Canada just dibbsed Y I guess
18:15:35 <coppro> so that they would get something consistent
18:26:41 <Sgeo> We should just fix that rule
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18:27:11 <shachaf> do you want to play another game
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18:28:34 <Sgeo> I have a birthday party to attend soon
18:28:40 <Sgeo> Maybe later tonight or tomorrow
18:28:58 <Sgeo> Also I need to learn how to not suck
18:29:36 <Jafet> Does it involve dismemberment
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19:41:18 <boily> helliott. is hagb4rd using aliases and puppets?
19:41:30 <elliott> for the past like 18 months yeah :P
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19:51:37 <Taneb> Help I am trying to improve the speed of some horrible code I wrote myself and don't want to show anyone else
19:55:16 <Taneb> vanila, I do not know
19:55:45 <Taneb> I'm trying to make the slow go away
19:58:44 <b_jonas> Taneb: first, identify which is the slow part. then rewrite the whole thing anyway.
19:58:52 <b_jonas> also, ask the magic 8-ball for hints
19:58:58 <b_jonas> `8-ball is Taneb's code slow?
19:59:52 <Taneb> `8-ball ARE YOU SURE? BECAUSE IT SEEMS PRETTY DAMNED SLOW TO ME
20:00:40 <Taneb> `8-ball Are you rigged
20:02:50 <vanila> well are you going to show the code?
20:03:10 <Taneb> vanila, no, I'm not in a position to
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20:03:14 <Taneb> olsner, I have been doing so
20:03:22 <vanila> I doubt I can help make it faster then
20:03:24 <Taneb> It now runs twice as fast
20:03:29 <olsner> run your code on smaller problems so the slow part goes faster
20:03:43 <Taneb> olsner, unfortunately I need to run it on bigger problems
20:05:46 <olsner> as usual, the way to get answers on IRC is to post your incorrect answer (= the slow code) and get it corrected
20:06:41 <Taneb> I more want sympathy than answers
20:07:48 <olsner> fungot: do you have sympathy?
20:07:49 <fungot> olsner: i fucking hate this package. it wouldn't have to be instantiated twice if something else simply requires a.
20:07:55 <mitchs> everybody hurts sometimes
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20:52:39 <quintopia> which languages have as their only flow control construct the ability to modify previous commands and rerun all succeeding commands in lieu of the update?
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20:57:17 <J_Arcane> http://pepijndevos.nl/2015/01/03/branch-free-fizzbuzz-in-assembly.html
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21:01:17 <fizzie> fungot: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a good thing?
21:01:17 <fungot> fizzie: yes, but not with
21:01:28 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, never mind.
21:01:28 <fungot> fizzie: ' new immigrants' made me think of endless hours of painful debugging, though it doesn't
21:01:43 <fizzie> fungot: Are you being a little bit racist there?
21:01:43 <fungot> fizzie: when it performs a divide by 2 instruction would make it feasible ( i think i'm a level 2 emacs web surfer!"
21:02:55 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: err made in bf. has anybody written a pattern description language to it from?
21:03:25 <fizzie> Newsflash: UKIP made in BF.
21:03:49 -!- adu has joined.
21:06:11 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know how to summarize, and we haven't had much time to do more than arrive, have some luggage-related adventures and get acquainted with the temporary apartment, which has both pros and cons.
21:06:22 <fizzie> (Then again, it's only a temporary place.)
21:06:37 <fizzie> It looked bigger in the photos, is the thing.
21:07:04 <fizzie> With this many suitcases, it's not especially roomy. But it's bigger than our hole in Belgium was, and we spent a month there just fine.
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21:09:59 <nc_jonas> I'm installing a new debian system on my home machine and haasd quite a scare
21:10:15 <nc_jonas> The installer wouldn't detect my hard disks
21:10:39 <nc_jonas> When loading the hard disk controller kernel module, it complained about some sort of unresolved symbosl
21:10:55 <nc_jonas> Luckily after upgrading the installer image the problem seems to be gone
21:11:17 -!- rade has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:11:18 <nc_jonas> I really hope it was a bug in the older installer rather than a hardware problem with my motherboard
21:12:13 <nc_jonas> Now I'm doing the installation. I hope they fixed it so this time it lets me continue the installation steps without insisting on installina bootloader
21:12:29 <nc_jonas> I want to manage the boot loader myself, thank you very much
21:13:14 <nc_jonas> ok, so at least the messages go through
21:14:50 <nc_jonas> because I'm in the middle of an installer with only a busybox rescue system
21:15:11 <fizzie> Debian installer has that SSH client module thing.
21:15:20 <nc_jonas> it's not worth to get anything more complicated up during the installation, it's quick anyway
21:15:38 <nc_jonas> fizzie: yes, but it's only like twenty minutes anyway
21:16:43 <nc_jonas> also, netcat ircing from the installer is some sort of a tradition I have, it makes me feel I'm doing the install procedure properly
21:17:00 <nc_jonas> I also used to retrieve webpages with, uh, curl or whatever it has
21:17:35 <nc_jonas> ok, it _would_ be only twenty minutes or less if I didn't irc during it
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21:56:59 <oerjan> <boily> (is altostratii the correct plural of an altostratus?) <-- normally -us for an adjective would just turn into one -i
21:57:08 <oerjan> now to check if that's actually an adjective
21:57:52 <oerjan> (if it's a noun it _might_ still do that, but could also be 3rd or 4th declination)
21:58:23 -!- nc_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:08:05 <oerjan> stratus can be either 1st-2nd declination past participle adjective or 4th declination verbal noun. both of those have their dictionary forms formed by adding -us to the past participle stem.
22:08:50 <oerjan> looking at the english as well, the former seems to be what the actual cloud nomenclature uses http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stratus
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22:51:29 <J_Arcane> Heh. I have had ello for all of 8 hours and I found a bug already.
22:54:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found
22:54:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: elcome: not found
22:56:47 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html> \ <html lang="en" dir="ltr" class="client-nojs"> \ <head> \ <title>Wierd - Esolang</title> \ <meta charset="UTF-8" /> \ <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.20.4" /> \ <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Edit" href="/w/index.php?title=Wierd&action=edit" /> \ <link rel="edit" title="Edit" href="/w/ind
22:56:55 <fizzie> `run welcome | perl -pe "s/\b\we/'e/g"
22:56:55 <HackEgo> 'elcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language 'esign and 'eployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.'et.)
22:57:02 <J_Arcane> their code for rendering code boxes is broken.
22:57:48 <J_Arcane> So while it does support Markdown, funny stuff happens when using certain symbols inside of backtick boxes (in this case, all my >'s in a code sample became >)
22:58:13 <J_Arcane> Kinda uglifies a language like F#: https://ello.co/jarcane/post/5r4nyJcdI0xRN4aZzCvv8A
22:58:31 <int-e> `` echo 'welcome "$@" | sed s/\\\<.//g' > bin/elcome
22:58:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/elcome: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/elcome: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:58:50 <int-e> `` chmod +x bin/elcome
22:58:56 <HackEgo> e: elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttp://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n rc.al.et.)
22:59:57 <fizzie> Perhaps make it specific to at least having a vowel as the second character.
23:00:43 <int-e> Well, it does what I wanted.
23:00:49 <int-e> Feel free to modify.
23:01:23 <fizzie> `run welcome | perl -pe "s/\b\w([aeiou])/'\$1/g"
23:01:24 <HackEgo> 'elcome 'o the international 'ub 'or esoteric programming 'anguage 'esign and 'eployment! 'or 'ore information, check 'ut 'ur 'iki: <http://esolangs.org/>. ('or the other 'ind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.'al.'et.)
23:01:46 <fizzie> I guess it's a matter of taste.
23:02:51 <int-e> `run welcome | perl -pe "s/\b\w+([aeiou])/'\$1/g"
23:02:52 <HackEgo> 'e 'o 'e 'al 'ub 'or 'ic 'ing 'e 'ign and 'ent! 'or 'e 'on, 'eck 'ut 'ur 'i: <http://'angs.org/>. ('or 'e 'er 'ind of 'a, try #'ic on irc.'al.'et.)
23:03:02 <int-e> err, right. stupid...
23:05:59 <fizzie> I agree that this is the best place for 'ic 'ing.
23:06:16 <fizzie> (Why does that sound dirty?)
23:07:21 <int-e> `run welcome | perl -pe "s/\b(?:(?"\!"[aeiouAEIOU])\w)+([aeiou])/'\$1/g"
23:07:22 <HackEgo> 'elcome 'o 'e international 'ub 'or esoteric 'ogramming 'anguage 'esign and 'eployment! 'or 'ore information, 'eck out our 'iki: <http://esolangs.org/>. ('or 'e other 'ind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.'al.'et.)
23:07:57 <int-e> (this is horrible, there must be better way to take the difference of \w and vowels...)
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23:16:59 <fizzie> Possibly (?[\w-[aeiouAEIOU]]) -- untested -- using the experimental extended bracketed character classes from 5.18+.
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23:17:43 <Solace> how do you make it so your bot doesn't run off your account cuz that's like all I can do atm
23:17:53 <fizzie> (Not on HackEgo, though.)
23:18:20 <fizzie> (It's still in 5.14.x.)
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23:22:09 <int-e> [^[:^alpha:]aeiou] works for perl
23:24:34 <int-e> well, [^[:^word:]aeiouAEIOU]
23:25:31 <int-e> also, [^\WaeiouAEIOU]
23:26:32 <Solace> What are you guys talking about?
23:28:21 <int-e> matching non-vowel letters (or word constituents, the rules aren't entirely clear) in a regex
23:29:39 <b_jonas> argh argh I'll have to sleep on this before I do something rash
23:29:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alikberov * New user account
23:31:16 <Solace> Uh but I'm switching soon
23:32:01 <Solace> any good linux alternates?
23:32:19 <int-e> What! "ARCHOS is a pioneer in Android tablets, portable audio and video player market that has repeatedly revolutionized the consumer electronics market since 1988." (I know Arch Linux, but I curiously googled "Arch OS")
23:33:03 <int-e> Solace: that will match whitespace and a lot of other things that don't appear in words.
23:33:46 <b_jonas> so apparently in Linux at boot time when specifying the device for the boot filesystem, I can use a traditional device name or a partition id, but not a disk id. Traditional device names are no good because they can shift when a sata disk is added or removed, which is why I'm using disk ids in my fstab at runtime. But
23:35:05 <Solace> Do you know how to double layer an ssh over an ssh ive heard you can do this but maybe not
23:35:26 <b_jonas> partition ids are no good either because those exist only if I have an uefi partition table, which apparently can't easily coexist with a pc partition table, and so I don't really want to install one.
23:35:37 <Solace> oh and [bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxyzBCDFGHJKLMNPQRSTVWXYZ] maybe?
23:37:29 <Solace> would be shorter to b-df-hj-np-tv-z and B-DF-HJ-NP-TV-Z
23:37:31 <b_jonas> So apparently my choices are: (1) getting my boot screwed when I plug the third hard disk in or when the first hard disk dies, or (2) upgrading to grub2 and generating the root device name dynamically, or (3) upgrading to an efi partition table, whcih, incidentally, would also require me to upgrade to grub2,
23:37:37 <int-e> Anyway, just make an account, log into the account (shell; su) and start the bot in a screen session.
23:38:00 <b_jonas> unless I keep a pc partition table on the first hard disk together with grub-l and the boot partition I think -- or does grub-l handle uefi parition tables?
23:38:32 <b_jonas> (or (4) some other boot loader I guess)
23:39:02 <int-e> what's so bad about grub2?
23:39:02 <Solace> why not [^aeiou\W] int-e or if this applys to what you were talking about with regex
23:39:19 <int-e> Solace: <int-e> also, [^\WaeiouAEIOU]
23:39:56 <Solace> Ah but that's a bit long?
23:39:57 <b_jonas> int-e: nothing, it's just that I don't want to change from what I know works, it's a bit big and overengineered, I don't want a whole operating system as my boot loader (I know I've used DOS+loadlin a decade ago, but DOS is not as much an operating system as grub2)
23:40:17 <b_jonas> int-e: but also I don't understand why I'd have to work around a linux kernel problem with the boot loader
23:40:18 <int-e> Solace: well, yours matches AEIOU. No, not golfing, just simplifying.
23:40:24 <b_jonas> int-e: I mean, even if I upgrade to grub2,
23:41:00 <b_jonas> the Linux kernel already knows about disk ids, they're there in devfs, it just doesn't handle them at boot time in the root= boot parameter, WHY?, and what's the proper workaround?
23:41:02 <int-e> b_jonas: you'll be stuck with some UUID scheme for identifying partitions, which is UGLY. :-/
23:41:08 <Solace> oh and here's one I got earlier [^aeiouAEIOU\W0-9_]
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23:42:08 <Solace> Also int-e if you dont care about case and can do embedded flags, (?i)[^aeiou\W0-9_]
23:42:28 <b_jonas> how do you guys handle this? are you using efi/guid partition tables?
23:43:05 <int-e> Solace: you arrived towards the end of that discussion. I started out with the ugly (?:(?![aeiouAEIOU])\w)
23:43:15 <b_jonas> what do you pass in the root= parameter for Linux if you boot Linux?
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23:45:23 <int-e> b_jonas: hmm, I'm actually relying on debian's builtin scripts here, which generate something like set root='hd0,msdos6'; if [ x$feature_platform_search_hint = xy ]; then search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root --hint-bios=hd0,msdos6 --hint-efi=hd0,msdos6 --hint-baremetal=ahci0,msdos6 --hint='hd0,msdos6' <UUID>
23:45:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41589&oldid=41114 * Alikberov * (+92) /* Examples: DNA-code */
23:46:21 <int-e> oh, it goes on: else search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root <UUID> fi.
23:46:29 <Solace> Also int-e what's the regex for or are you just trying simplifying
23:46:39 <int-e> Solace: check the logs
23:47:30 <b_jonas> int-e: oh wait, I forgot to mention the part where the whole thing might be easier if you're using initrd, like debian usually does, because then the initrd script can do anything to find the real root device
23:47:40 <b_jonas> but I'm an old-style guy and don't use an initrd
23:48:03 <b_jonas> int-e: as for those lines, how does that pass the root fs to the kernel parameters?
23:49:38 <int-e> Ooh wait. I cannot answer this. I have custom entries for booting Linux; I was looking at memtest stuff.
23:50:06 <b_jonas> int-e: what do you use for custom entries? and are you using an efi/guid partition table or a pc one?
23:50:56 <int-e> pc, insmod part_msdos; insmod ext2; set root=(hd0,msdos6); linux /bzImage-64-3.10.12-2 root=/dev/sda7 ro; boot <-- all hardcoded.
23:51:04 <int-e> so that doesn't help you
23:51:13 <Solace> Can any of the bots latex?
23:51:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: latex: not found
23:51:36 <b_jonas> hardcoded works if the boot and the root fs are both the first hard disk,
23:51:39 <b_jonas> which is what I'm having now,
23:51:47 <b_jonas> but currently I'm installing a new system on a different hard disk,
23:51:54 <b_jonas> and for a while I want both to co-exist,
23:51:58 <b_jonas> so I can't have both on the first hard disk
23:52:14 <b_jonas> I can put the boot loader and boot partition wherever, even in multiple places,
23:52:27 <b_jonas> and I can swap the two hard disks,
23:52:34 <Solace> latex a string of math to show what b^2 looks like so it shows it as b squared 2
23:52:36 <b_jonas> but I don't want to move the old system to the other hard disk
23:52:53 <b_jonas> so I can't have both root fses on the first hard disk.
23:53:40 <b_jonas> I could still consider to use a small root partition on the first disk with almost no data there and the real stuff mounted later, but that also makes stuff more complicated, or of course an initrd too.
23:54:21 <b_jonas> I'll definitely have to sleep on this, and read up on how efi/guid partition tables work and what software to use to manage them, because maybe it is worth for the long term anyway
23:54:53 <int-e> b_jonas: I didn't think any OS besides Windows every cared about being booted from the first floppy or hdd... what's the issue?
23:55:13 <b_jonas> int-e: the problem is not booting from the non-first hard disk,
23:55:33 <fizzie> Solace: You can use the Google Charts API to render something that's pretty close to LaTeX.
23:55:40 <fizzie> Solace: E.g., http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=b^2
23:56:12 <fizzie> ("cht=txt" says the chart type is just a text string, and "chl" is the text to render.)
23:56:37 <b_jonas> The problem is that if the boot parameter is, say, root=/dev/sdb7 , then the meaning of sdb can change depending on what other hard disks are plugged in, so if I plug in a third disk or a disk dies, Linux can suddenly try to use the wrong fs for root.
23:56:55 <Solace> Ah well I found a pretty good site now
23:57:04 <Solace> But thanks anyways fizzie
23:57:05 <b_jonas> int-e: the annoying part is that during runtime (not at boot), Linux already has a solution for this:
23:57:06 <int-e> Solace: http://mathb.in/ works?
23:57:22 <b_jonas> int-e: my fstab has entries referring to stuff like /dev/disk/by-id/ata-WDC_WD20EARX-00PASB0_WD-WMAZA9883130-part6
23:57:28 <fizzie> Or, say, http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\frac{-b\pm\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a}
23:57:45 <b_jonas> where ata-WDC_WD20EARX-00PASB0_WD-WMAZA9883130 is the unique id of one of the hard disks, so it can't ever refer to the wrong hard disk, no matter what disks are plugged in
23:58:28 <elliott> it has a solution during boot too
23:58:32 <Solace> http://quicklatex.com works also int-e
23:58:47 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, but the problem is that that only works if I have an efi partition table
23:58:48 <elliott> unless that's an initrd thing
23:58:54 <elliott> b_jonas: that would be PARTUUID.
23:58:58 <b_jonas> elliott: no, that's a kernel thing
23:59:05 <b_jonas> what does UUID refer to then?
23:59:06 <fizzie> b_jonas: That's just untrue.
23:59:29 <elliott> I guess UUID is some other UUID, but it works just as well.
23:59:32 <fizzie> Oh, it's already being explained -- I'll shut up.
23:59:38 <b_jonas> I DEFINITELY tried to look at linux/Documentation/kernel-parameters.txt but it doesn't document how it works properly
23:59:56 <fizzie> It's the same UUID that is in /dev/disk/by-uuid, if that helps.
00:00:03 <elliott> nooo, fizzie should explain it
00:00:11 <fizzie> No, I should be asleep.
00:00:19 <coppro> fizzie: cht=tx tells it it's a TeX formula
00:00:35 <elliott> I love it when you come in to take the effort away from me
00:00:57 <coppro> that's deprecated though
00:01:07 <Solace> I should try to reboot somestuff
00:01:58 <fizzie> All I was going to say is that this definitely-non-GPT laptop has root=UUID=... on it.
00:02:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, but then what's the full syntax? how do I specify the partition number on that disk, and where's good documentation here?
00:03:09 <fizzie> It's a partition-specific UUID, you can't specify a partition on it.
00:03:09 <elliott> use blkid or something to get the identifier
00:03:09 <elliott> it can print them all out for you
00:03:09 <elliott> you can use these in /etc/fstab too btw
00:03:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: is it a laptop with only one hard disk?
00:03:09 <elliott> which is good if, uh, you have no /dev, I guess?
00:03:09 <elliott> b_jonas: e.g. I'm pretty sure ubuntu and so on have installed with UUIDs only for years
00:03:09 <elliott> certainly it's been the recommended arch practice for everyone for a long time
00:03:09 <b_jonas> so I can use these partition-specific UUIDs, which are a filesystem feature
00:03:09 <elliott> so I'd be very surprised if it didn't work for you
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00:03:09 <fizzie> This is a Debian installation, and it configured grub with UUID=... by default.
00:03:09 <b_jonas> I sort of prefer the hard disk hardware ids, because the partition uids could get duplicated if I copy a whole filesystem bytewise, but that's a rare occasion
00:03:09 <b_jonas> but I guess I could use this filesystem id thing for boot
00:03:13 <fizzie> And yes, the format does seem filesystem-specific, because all these ext-whatevers have the GUID-style thing, while the NTFS partitions are just 16 hex digits.
00:03:15 <coppro> b_jonas: you should get in the habit of changing the UUID if you do that
00:03:20 <elliott> you maybe can do ID=... or something
00:03:34 <elliott> b_jonas: btw, that's why byte-copying GPT tables is generally considered a sin
00:03:43 <elliott> (you have to generate a new GUID if you clone a partition)
00:03:48 <b_jonas> elliott: change them with tune2fs? could work, yes
00:03:50 <elliott> depends on what you're doing
00:03:59 <elliott> but if you intend to use both simultaneously
00:04:11 <Solace> Ok so like there's 16 million colour hex codes and I wanna list them all but idk how to do that in an.efficient and fast way
00:04:25 <b_jonas> (or reiserfstune -u depending on the fs type I guess)
00:04:30 <Solace> Or atleast almost a lot
00:04:40 <elliott> you still use reiserfs? o_o
00:05:04 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, for backup partitions that I may want to access even if my main system crashes and I want to access them with an old system that doesn't have ext4 support
00:05:26 <b_jonas> I actually prefer ext4 now
00:05:37 <b_jonas> but won't recreate some existing reiserfs
00:05:51 <b_jonas> anyway, my remaining question is, where's this kernel parameter root=UUID thing documented?
00:05:59 <b_jonas> does it work even without initrd?
00:06:04 <b_jonas> because I think it's an initrd thing
00:06:26 <elliott> fizzie: so does this mean that if you have some random data that just happens to look like a valid somefs filesystem with a certain UUID...?
00:06:35 <elliott> like, it works by probing, not by hashing up some hardware identifiers of the partition?
00:06:56 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, I guess that's the other problem
00:07:07 <elliott> I mean, it works, it's just ugly :p
00:07:11 <elliott> I like PARTUUID better then
00:07:20 <elliott> though I just use PARTLABEL since UUIDs are a pain and I know what my partition labels are
00:07:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: By the way, "lsblk -o +UUID,PARTUUID" suggests you can perhaps use PARTUUID without GPT too, because all these partitions have PARTUUIDs of 0008fac6-01 .. 0008fac6-07 where the first digits are probably the disk ID.
00:07:27 <elliott> (you can use LABEL on non-GPT)
00:07:32 <int-e> Meh am I the only one who lost data thanks to reiserfs' attitude of keeping metadata consistent but not caring about the relation between file size and file contents?
00:07:44 <fizzie> (Where the 01 .. 07 is the partition number.)
00:07:52 <b_jonas> elliott: some live cd systems that supposedly don't use your hard disk default to using any swap partitions they find on your hard disk as swap by default, good luck if you wanted to recover data from a failing hard disk with such a live boot system
00:07:54 <int-e> (this must have been around the year 2000, I have not used reiserfs since)
00:08:17 <fizzie> (So many redundant tools -- I picked "lsblk -o +UUID,PARTUUID" out of 'man mount'.)
00:08:18 <Solace> I've only used it recently
00:08:55 <elliott> fizzie: blkid is part of the same package as lsblk, I think.
00:09:00 <b_jonas> it seems root=UUID= is an initrd feature
00:09:08 <b_jonas> the kernel itself only has root=PARTUUID=
00:09:09 <Solace> How do you keep a constant file of metadata mine keeps deleting itself and I'm slowly dieing
00:09:22 <elliott> have you considered just using an initramfs :p
00:09:31 <fizzie> elliott: dpkg reports they're both in util-linux here, FWIW.
00:09:38 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, I have mentioned that among other stuff
00:09:58 <fizzie> b_jonas: So did that non-GPT PARTUUID suit your needs?
00:09:59 <b_jonas> but I just don't see why I need these sort of workarounds when linux does now my hard disk identifier anyway
00:09:59 <elliott> fizzie: right I mean, they both use libblkid or whatever
00:10:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno, how does that work?
00:10:33 <fizzie> b_jonas: Try "lsblk -o +UUID,PARTUUID" and see if your partitions have "xxxxxxxx-NN" PARTUUID values.
00:10:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: Then try them out as root=PARTUUID=..., I guess.
00:11:03 <Solace> just Delete linux and install the original windows
00:11:10 <b_jonas> do I have to install that?
00:11:14 <Solace> that's a horrid suggestion
00:11:38 <b_jonas> whatever I choose, I definitely won't do it right now. I'll sleep on it and thing what's the best thing to do.
00:11:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's in 'util-linux' on Debian. But I don't know anything about this.
00:12:10 <fizzie> b_jonas: At any rate, it's just a disk ID + partition number, so if you wanted something robust to repartitioning, this ain't it.
00:12:19 <b_jonas> oh, apparently it's in later versions of lsblk
00:12:23 <b_jonas> later than what I have installed
00:12:41 <b_jonas> ok, I'll try to figure that out, thanks
00:13:37 <fizzie> FWIW, fdisk reports "Disk identifier: 0x0008fac6" and the PARTUUIDs I get from lsblk are 0008fac6-01 and so on, so you could probably puzzle it out that way too.
00:13:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks for the hints
00:16:28 <b_jonas> creating an efi partition table and installing grub2 might make sense, so that's an option I have to consider too
00:18:28 <quintopia> anyone know the name of the symmetry group of Life-like CAs?
00:18:47 <elliott> no problem. that'll be $5k
00:19:39 <int-e> quintopia: dihedral group, D_4?
00:19:59 <vanila> one of the wallpaper groups?
00:20:55 <oerjan> should it include translations as well?
00:23:43 <vanila> or the symmetry of the rule set?
00:23:57 <vanila> since it only depends on the number it's the full permutation group I think
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00:30:35 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA!
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00:39:38 * GeekDude blows everyone in this channel up with 1 ton of c4
00:42:28 * GeekDude flings everyone in this channel into a black hole
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00:49:22 <Solace> Are you implying GeekDude that being tossed into a black hole would kill us?
00:49:32 * GeekDude throws a baseball bat at everyone in this channel
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00:51:47 <Solace> keeping an entire copy of your server on 300 floppy disks
00:52:15 <GeekDude> Who keeps a backup on floppies?
00:52:48 <elliott> GeekDude: it's not really appropriate so please don't
00:52:52 <Solace> Since servers nowadays would take up a lot of floppies
00:53:23 <GeekDude> I think it'd depend on whether or not you're copying the entire server, or just the relevant configuration files and web root
00:53:29 <Solace> Ok so like I'm trying to fill up a petabyte
00:53:39 <Solace> And its taking very long
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00:56:13 <Solace> I'm having trouble with outputting spaces in haskell.
00:56:32 <Solace> itsjusthavingallthewordsconnectedlikethis
00:57:18 <elliott> uhh... can I see your code?
00:58:13 <Solace> when I get on the computer elliott
00:58:27 <Solace> I'm at my friends house atm
01:02:19 <Solace> oh.. I'm stupid I accidently deleted the zerospace file ;-; now I have to redo it
01:02:32 <Solace> Sorry for the bother. ugh I is stupid
01:08:56 <GeekDude> So far it's turned out pretty correct
01:25:12 <zzo38> I tried entering a complicated regular expression into Gatherer and it would not accept it.
01:27:51 <zzo38> I typed m/^[^()]*(\([^()]*\))*[^()]*counters?\son[^()]*(\([^()]*\))*[^()]*$/ although maybe it contains a mistake I don't know
01:29:00 <zzo38> Cards with "counter(s) on" outside of reminder text.
01:31:08 <shachaf> Does Gatherer even search inside the reminder text?
01:32:21 <zzo38> Yes it does, and doesn't seem to have an option to omit it.
01:34:24 <shachaf> I think what people usually do for complicated queries is download the database and search it themselves.
01:34:32 <shachaf> I don't know if it's easily available for download, though.
01:36:44 <zzo38> I did also want a SQLite database of Magic: the Gathering cards in fact.
01:37:22 <zzo38> Maybe people can work together making one up.
01:38:03 <shachaf> Several people have databases, e.g. magiccards.info and the bot Datatog on EFNet.
01:40:28 <zzo38> It doesn't seems you can download those?
01:40:59 <shachaf> I don't know, but maybe you can talk to those people.
01:41:05 <shachaf> There are also other databases of cards.
01:42:42 <zzo38> If they aren't in SQLite format then maybe they can be converted into SQLite format.
01:43:57 <zzo38> From what I have seen Gatherer is still the best one so far, though.
01:48:18 <vanila> what's good about SQLite?
01:52:45 <zzo38> You can use SQLite in websites, but it can also be used standalone, which is how I normally use it.
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01:54:32 <zzo38> SQLite is a relatively simple SQL implementation, it stores the database in a single file, is public domain, is fast for small databases (it is fast for large databases too, but not as fast as larger implementations), and it supports virtual tables and INSTEAD OF triggers and a few other things.
01:55:02 <shachaf> zzo38: http://yawgatog.com/resources/oracle/
01:55:10 <zzo38> It is also easy to write extensions.
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01:58:42 <vanila> a virtual table sounds weird, isn't SELECT statement enough?
01:58:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Thank you that might help for converting into SQLite format.
01:58:59 <shachaf> You can also search it directly. It is a text file.
01:59:31 <zzo38> Yes, although I believe it would also be useful in SQLite format.
02:00:27 <vanila> and I imagine that is powerful enough to replace virtual table?
02:01:21 <zzo38> Do you even know what a virtual table does?
02:02:43 <zzo38> O, SQLite also supports recursive WITH clauses and partial indices. Also, I find INSTEAD OF triggers are usually more useful than BEFORE and AFTER triggers.
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02:16:47 <zzo38> I made up some new rules and cards for Magic: the Gathering. Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/newmtg.txt
02:17:33 <shachaf> I've never played with mana burn and it seems like it would be annoying.
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02:19:51 <zzo38> For strategic purposes mainly.
02:20:06 <zzo38> But look at the card texts too.
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02:25:11 <oren> why can't I centre anything?
02:26:58 <vanila> I just realized something
02:27:08 <vanila> zzo38 appears last in a lot of lists that it appears in
02:27:51 <oren> so what? it begins with zz
02:28:11 <oren> if you want first you do AA
02:28:28 <vanila> im not sure if that will wo rk well
02:28:39 <vanila> you might need to go triple a
02:30:27 <oren> what black sorcery does it take to vertically centre text in a div?
02:33:52 <boily> I could say jQuery, but I won't mention it.
02:38:25 <zzo38> My first name does start with AA, and my father changed his last name to Black so that his name would be close to the beginning of alphabetical lists.
02:39:07 <oren> boily: jquery doesn't seem to have it
02:44:34 <oren> oh it see. the font i'm using is uncentred. oh joy
02:45:37 <boily> the vagaries of web development...
02:46:21 <oren> i had the bright idea of making an RPG in javacript. I regret everything
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03:06:22 <HackEgo> U+1F523 INPUT SYMBOL FOR SYMBOLS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 a3 UTF-16BE: d83ddd23 Decimal: 🔣 \ 🔣 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
03:06:44 <oren> unicodeception
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03:24:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Isn't a token always a permanent right now?
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03:34:27 <zzo38> oren: Maybe you should make the RPG in SQL instead?
03:38:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Using {T} as the cost for loyalty abilities sounds worrying.
03:38:56 <shachaf> Untapping permanents isn't very difficult. They surely did it this way on purpose.
03:39:09 <shachaf> Though e.g. http://magiccards.info/query?q=!the+chain+veil exists.
03:40:38 <vanila> is there a UNIX command to "pop" a line out of a file
03:40:56 <vanila> using a file as a stack
03:43:43 <zzo38> shachaf: OK I fixed that.
03:44:08 <zzo38> vanila: I don't know of any, at least.
03:44:21 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the point of {T} loyalty abilities?
03:44:24 <vanila> im goingo to write it myself, called 'pop'
03:44:30 <shachaf> Just to make it easier to keep track of the state?
03:45:01 <vanila> it will be more efficient to truncate a line off a file, than move everthing back one line
03:45:08 <zzo38> shachaf: Mainly yes, but in unusual circumstances may do other things too.
03:45:22 <vanila> hm tail gves me the last time
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04:24:54 <shachaf> zzo38: Why not make losing the game as a result of attempting to draw a card a state-based action?
04:26:42 <shachaf> zzo38: http://mtgjson.com/
04:26:53 <zzo38> It just doesn't make complete sense to me, since that would require the state of the game to include such a feature; it seems simpler to make it not a state-based action; this also would affect some unusual situations.
04:27:25 <shachaf> I was wondering which situations it would affect.
04:27:35 <shachaf> It seems like state-based actions are the usual way to handle that sort of thing?
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04:30:52 <Solace> oren why is that unicode so long
04:31:17 <zzo38> That JSON data is good idea. Virtual table module can be one way to convert it into SQLite format. (Another virtual table module could then be used to convert into another different format too.)
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04:34:34 <Solace> how does one render 16 million colours on a bit map
04:35:15 <Jafet> vanila: depending on what "pop" is used for, you should probably create a new file and rename it atomically.
04:38:35 <zzo38> shachaf: It would affect the situation in case someone is both losing all life and being unable to draw a card at the same time. (I am also curious what the old Fourth Edition rules are regarding this situation. I have a Magic: the Puzzing book, so it would help to know such thing.)
04:39:04 <zzo38> And, what is your opnions of some of the cards I have put in? (Note that sometimes I update them even a few seconds ago and a few minutes in the future.)
04:40:03 <Jafet> For example: x=$(mktemp --tmpdir "$(dirname "$1")"); l=$(tail -n 1 "$1"); head -n -1 "$1" >"$x"; mv "$x" "$1"; echo "$l"
04:43:29 <Sgeo> An open-source fanatic friend says no one will use my project if I don't open source it
04:43:44 <Jafet> Well, he is probably half right.
04:43:55 <zzo38> Sgeo: It depend what your project is, probably. What is the project anyways?
04:44:12 <Sgeo> Not sure if I really want to say on here
04:44:20 <Sgeo> It's just a sorting of Google Maps API data though
04:44:35 <zzo38> Open-sourcing it will nevertheless probably improve its usefulness.
05:05:40 <zzo38> O, they also have mana symbols in SVG; that may help in order to convert it into a typeface.
05:08:25 <Sgeo> shachaf: where's prismatajson?
05:09:50 <shachaf> Sgeo: http://blog.prismata.net/units/ hth
05:15:37 <shachaf> Sgeo: http://prismata.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Category:Unit_data has some unit data.
05:15:45 <shachaf> Do you want to play a game?
05:16:27 <vanila> why don't you open source it
05:18:58 <Sgeo> I might want to make money on it. Although I guess I can both have ads and open-source it
05:19:01 <Sgeo> I'm still undecided
05:20:38 * Sgeo is also undecided whether to play shachaf in Prismata right now
05:20:56 <Solace> Put lots of invisible banner ads on it
05:21:33 <Solace> Then open source it layer a couple ssh's over it encrypt all of it and then no one can use eet
05:25:26 * Sgeo decides he needs to drink water
05:26:14 <zzo38> You can open-source it and still earn money; there are several ways to do so. For example the GUI version is you can charge money and/or put ads in it, command-line version is an open-source software package
05:26:49 <Solace> Make it force pull $3000 from their paypals
05:27:23 <zzo38> That's cheating and anyways not everyone is using Paypal or has that much in their account even if they do.
05:28:09 <Solace> Idk I give illegal suggestions
05:28:42 * Sgeo won't play Prismata right now
05:29:31 <Sgeo> http://prismata.net/
05:30:29 * Solace proceeds to click the link after 17 weeks
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06:21:00 <GeekDude> Isn't prismata that game that was basically jumpstarted by reddit?
06:24:18 <Solace> Do you crave that mineral?
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07:52:38 <FreeFull> Solace: Might as well encrypt their data and ask for money to decrypt
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08:55:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folders]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41590 * Keymaker * (+828) Clarifications?
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10:18:04 <[{Oren}]> i still don't understand why the icon for a zip archive on windows is a folder with a zipper on it
10:18:20 <elliott> didn't you just answer your own question
10:18:46 <[{Oren}]> why not use a proper metaphor instead of a stupid pun?
10:19:49 <oerjan> or, if it is a pun, are you sure microsoft made it?
10:20:19 <[{Oren}]> i haven't got any special icon sets installed (afaik)
10:20:35 <oerjan> i mean, are you sure "zip" wasn't made for that pun
10:20:54 <oerjan> also, making metaphors into icons is hard.
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10:21:22 <shachaf> oerjan: it was named after pkzip obviously hth
10:22:16 <oerjan> ok maybe not "The name "zip" (meaning "move at high speed") was suggested by Katz's friend, Robert Mahoney."
10:23:53 <oerjan> if God was the first pun, then who made God
10:24:35 <[{Oren}]> anyway the zipper is in a nonsensical place
10:25:04 <oerjan> although, pretty sure "zipper" must have been made from that verb too...
10:25:08 <int-e> oerjan: Yeah I won't believe that they were unaware of the other meanings. (the decompressor was pkunzip -- would that mean "make slow"?)
10:26:56 <oerjan> i get this feeling everyone in the channel except me is into manga style these days
10:27:06 <oerjan> (of course i have no style)
10:28:06 <oerjan> [{Oren}]: i see no zipper in that image :(
10:29:19 <[{Oren}]> the "compressed folder" named "allegro" is the fourth one down on the left.
10:29:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `unidecode: not found
10:30:41 <HackEgo> [U+540D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-540D]
10:30:57 <[{Oren}]> that is an extremely unhelpful name
10:33:28 <HackEgo> [U+72D7 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-72D7]
10:34:19 <shachaf> it's an ideological system hth
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10:36:33 <oerjan> the han unification ideology
10:38:20 <[{Oren}]> that character means dog in every languageit is used in... why can't they just say CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH DOG
10:39:05 <b_jonas> I'll have to re-check this, I may have been stupid yesterday
10:39:16 <[{Oren}]> also nowadays it should just be CJ unification since K aren't using them anymore
10:39:23 <Jafet> It should just be CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH 狗 hth
10:41:03 <oerjan> [{Oren}]: they aren't?
10:41:52 <oerjan> when did south korea stop sprinkling kanji into everything, i heard that was a major difference between them and north korea
10:42:48 <[{Oren}]> oerjan: apparently they stopped in the 1990's
10:44:22 <[{Oren}]> yeah, so it went from CJKV to CJK and now it should just be CJ
10:48:36 <Jafet> "Formal hanja education begins in grade 7 (junior high school) and continues until graduation from senior high school in grade 12. A total of 1,800 hanja are taught: 900 for junior high, and 900 for senior high (starting in grade 10)."
10:51:03 <int-e> Jafet: "Only Latin capital letters A to Z (U+0041..U+0056), ASCII digits (U+0030..U+0039), U+0020 space, and U+002D hyphen-minus occur in character names."
10:52:28 <b_jonas> int-e: I thought the allowed selection was a bit larger,
10:52:28 <shachaf> someone should tell those folks about unicode
10:52:34 <b_jonas> as in, all iso-646 invariant printable characters
10:52:35 <int-e> (Unicode, chapter 4.8)
10:52:45 <b_jonas> so basically commas or slashes cuold appear
10:52:48 <elliott> int-e: hmm, is that a statement of what is /allowed/ or just what happens to be true?
10:53:00 <b_jonas> and I think at least one more character actually appears, let me look it up
10:53:21 <int-e> b_jonas: looks like a hard rule to me.
10:53:50 <Jafet> Probably a rule for subcommittees.
10:54:44 <Jafet> I don't think there's even any systematic way of enumerating the han characters by shape
10:54:47 <[{Oren}]> Anyway i see now reason then why 漢 could not be CJ UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH HAN
10:56:13 <[{Oren}]> Jafet: there is the tried and true radical/stroke number system but it doesn't really work for simplified characters
10:56:25 <b_jonas> Jafet: shape? _shape_? the shape isn't what determines the characters, it's the historical fluff loaded on it. that's true even for latin. O and О are different characters even if they have the same shape.
10:56:26 <oerjan> CJ UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH COMPOSED OF RADICAL WITH TWO SHORT DOWNWARD DIAGONAL STROKES ABOVE A LONG UPWARD DIAGONAL STROKE AND RADICAL GOD WHAT A MESS
10:57:06 <[{Oren}]> so as expected, it should be by the meaning
10:57:58 <Jafet> I think most han ideographs are uniquely determined by shape
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10:58:10 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: but the meaning can change, and you can't ever be sure what meanings a character will get that all languages that will ever be transcribed with kanji in the future um I've got this sentence tangled up
10:58:18 <b_jonas> Jafet: not the unified ones, that's the point
10:59:12 <b_jonas> Jafet: of course, the unified ones (that unify different characters from simplified chinese, traditional chinese, and japanese) are a historical artifact that should never have happened (the reason was that they only had the space for about 65536 characters)
10:59:50 <HackEgo> [U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+041E CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER O]
11:00:07 <[{Oren}]> unicode is far from futureproof anyway
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11:00:16 <oerjan> imagine if they'd done latin-cyrillic greek unification
11:00:21 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: sure, there are mistakes and even plain typos in the character names
11:00:46 <[{Oren}]> oerjan: i have done that in a font for a game
11:00:57 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think that would have been pointless. there's only like one character you can share with greek (o) and about two or three you can share with cyrillic
11:01:04 <oerjan> somewhere out there is a parallel universe where china invented the internet and they did just that.
11:01:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh hm well if you have to keep upper and lower case together...
11:02:09 <oerjan> imagine this system being made by completely culture-ignorant chinese
11:02:11 <[{Oren}]> if china was more powerful then japan and taiwan would just have to make due with simplified characters
11:02:25 <oerjan> so they unify latin P with russian R
11:02:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, admittedly that's already sort of fucked up with the turkish i and the two different cyrillic lowercase shapes
11:02:50 <b_jonas> there's just no easy solution for those, some software really has to know about the details to handle those
11:03:54 <b_jonas> hmm, I was wrong, indeed all character names use only those characters
11:04:10 <oerjan> i wonder how much internationalized software out there _actually_ handles russian numbers correctly
11:04:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: russian numbers? what?
11:04:55 <b_jonas> but of course most software handles internationalized anything wrong
11:05:08 <oerjan> b_jonas: this isn't a character issue, but combining a number and a noun in russian has at least 5 different inflection combinations
11:05:54 <Jafet> Most software don't even handle 1 languages correctly
11:05:58 <oerjan> you need to know how to inflect the nouns
11:05:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: dunno, ask ais523, he's the one who's worked on that kind of crazy phrase making software. well, some of my colleagues have too.
11:06:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: not Russian in particular, but he's started to wrote a branch of nethack4 called grammartree, currently sleeping, that tries to handle translation well in general
11:07:06 <b_jonas> and also improving messages in English, which is no easy task beacuse nethack's handling of English is quite good already most of the times
11:07:13 <b_jonas> (though there are small mistakes)
11:07:53 <b_jonas> but it turns out grammartree was too large a task so he's concentrating on other stuff instead, and the trunk has drifted far enough that grammartree is not even easy to merge I think
11:08:09 <b_jonas> but anyway, the basics of grammartree might be helpful, it seems to be some ultra-general system thingy
11:08:09 <oerjan> b_jonas: mainly i'm thinking of this because the yesod web framework in haskell has a documentation page on internationalization, and mentions the russian problem as something you want an advanced system for, but does _not_ show that (or anything similarly complicated) as an actual code example
11:08:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: have you checked if icu has code for this russian numbers thing? they have some sort of number formatting stuff
11:09:03 <[{Oren}]> interesting fact: because Shift-JIS encodes greek and russian with two bytes, these characters are displayed wide on Japanese fonts
11:09:12 <oerjan> ...i don't even do this kind of coding myself, so no
11:09:23 <b_jonas> (and no interface for finding the date of Easter in their calendar handling, it seems)
11:09:45 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: yeah, crazy historical stuff
11:10:07 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: that's where the weird single width kana come from
11:10:12 <[{Oren}]> the fact they even decided that 2 bytes = wide character is crazy
11:10:46 <zzo38> [{Oren}]: Are you sure it is really crazy? It make a few sense to me.
11:10:54 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: oh come on, that does make sense. think of teletext, where the color changing codes take up a column, so that it can be decoded by very simple circuits
11:11:16 <[{Oren}]> it could guarantee that strlen is the width of the string...
11:11:23 <zzo38> The part of Shift-JIS which is bad is that it sometimes interferes with ASCII characters.
11:11:32 <zzo38> But, 2 bytes = wide character is not bad.
11:11:36 <b_jonas> (teletext also has different and incompatible codepages, so if you're watching with the television made for the wrong country, you'll see garbled accented characters. that happens with some old basic-based personal computers too.)
11:12:58 <b_jonas> from http://userguide.icu-project.org/formatparse/numbers I think it doesn't handle that
11:13:21 <b_jonas> it may have a way to format numbers with different inflections
11:13:50 <oerjan> here in norway, teletext frequently shows swedish letters instead of norwegian ones
11:16:01 <b_jonas> as in ö instead of ø ? or more fucked up?
11:16:20 <b_jonas> no wait, I mean Ö instead of Ø
11:16:27 <b_jonas> (lowercase letters... what was I thinking)
11:16:50 <oerjan> noticeable but not a real problem
11:17:44 <b_jonas> do modern television receivers handle all that correctly? I mean, they're certainly technically capable to store all the different codepages and use the right one.
11:18:32 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm going to suspect that their ORDINAL rule cannot even handle romance languages (something like 1a vs. 1o dependent on gender)
11:19:14 <b_jonas> I hear from my brother that Swedish-speaking doctors in Norway sometimes dictate medical texts in Swedish and their secretary types them translated to Norwegian on the fly.
11:20:18 <oerjan> do doctors even have secretaries these days.
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11:20:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: assistants. and not all of them have them of course, just some, so this isn't universal.
11:21:02 <b_jonas> But the texts doctors write have very few ordinary words, it's mostly medical jargon and abbreviations, so I imagine translating it isn't difficult.
11:22:58 <[{Oren}]> my dad once translated a bulgarian math paper into russian. he has very little knowledge of wither language
11:23:00 <b_jonas> But they certainly have assistants because there are too few doctors but enough assistants.
11:23:46 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: yes, math is like that too. it's much easier to learn to read english or french or german or russian math papers than to really learn those languages. the vocabulary is small.
11:23:48 <oerjan> i once translated an english medical text into norwegian for my aunt
11:24:19 <b_jonas> these days most of the papers are English or Chinese, so I never really had to learn that skill, but still.
11:25:28 <oerjan> western scientists are going to be so hosed when chinese really takes off as a scientific language
11:25:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: nah, quite a lot of the papers they write are worthless
11:26:01 <b_jonas> the papers they write in chinese that is
11:26:09 <[{Oren}]> japanese scientists could read both
11:26:17 <oerjan> b_jonas: by taking off, i mean in quality as well, of course
11:26:25 <oerjan> as in, can no longer be ignored
11:27:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: but aren't math papers at that point (possibly not those in other sciences) still supposed to have a small vocabulary, so they're easy to read (even if not write)?
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11:29:00 <oerjan> well i wasn't talking about math specifically
11:29:34 <b_jonas> You mean like biologists? They might be more screwed, yeah
11:29:36 <oerjan> although i still think chinese would be worse; with german/french you can still recognize all the latin/greek-derived words in common
11:29:48 <b_jonas> sure, it would be somewhat worse
11:30:36 <oerjan> *far* worse, if you can never guess what a word means...
11:30:59 <b_jonas> you don't have to guess. look it up in a dictionary. come on, we're living on the internet age.
11:31:27 <b_jonas> computers are already making finding and reading research papers much easier in many ways.
11:31:29 <Jafet> Hopefully some of those improved-quality publications concern automatic translation
11:33:37 <Jafet> On the other hand, nearly all computer science publications worth reading are written in english
11:35:07 <oerjan> i suppose when you're already using an english-based programming language...
11:36:17 <b_jonas> Jafet: meh, I don't care much about computer science publications.
11:39:20 <zzo38> What is the rule in Magic: the Gathering if the type of a creature being haunted changes into something that isn't a creature?
11:39:45 <zzo38> O wait, now I see.
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11:49:00 <b_jonas> there's such a rule? I think the haunting continues to work
11:49:46 <b_jonas> I think there's a general rule that effects saying things like "that creature" referencing an object selected earlier still work even if the referenced object is no longer of that type
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11:51:30 <b_jonas> though of course some particular effects could have specific rules overriding this
12:04:20 <zzo38> Actually, rule 702.54b clarifies it so that is how I already saw
12:04:40 <zzo38> The haunting does continue to work.
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12:14:21 <zzo38> Did you see the new cards I made in newmtg.txt? Now I added some, such as "Hide Attackers".
12:15:45 <zzo38> (It is an instant with Ninjutsu; that is pretty strange, isn't it?)
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12:17:12 <zzo38> I assume that Vigilance does not prevent a card with Ninjutsu from coming into play tapped.
12:17:44 <zzo38> I also assume that Defender does not prevent Ninjutsu from working.
12:29:55 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/newmtg.txt
12:33:05 <zzo38> Is there any Magic: the Puzzling that invokes rule 514.3a?
12:36:07 <b_jonas> um, wait a minute, which rule is that, do I even have a copy of the latest version of the rules?
12:36:31 <b_jonas> "These rules are effective as of June 1, 2014." -- that's old
12:36:50 <zzo38> That is the rule that allows players to have priority during a cleanup step if state-based or triggers occur at that time.
12:37:15 <b_jonas> oh, I've heared of that rule, yes
12:38:56 <b_jonas> "These rules are effective as of September 25, 2014." - better
12:39:06 <b_jonas> yes, that's what 514.3a says
12:42:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: here's what I was wondering. would it be sane for white to have a counterspell like this: name: Fair Duel. mana cost: 1W. type: Instant. abilities: Cast Fair Duel only during combat. Counter target spell.
12:43:12 <zzo38> I don't know. It looks like OK to me, but I don't know.
12:43:41 <zzo38> I will add it anyways for now.
12:44:11 <b_jonas> “Losing the game due to being unable to draw a card is now part of the definition of drawing a card (rather than a state-based action), and occurs immediately, before state-based actions are checked.” - oh, sounds like a good change!
12:44:44 <zzo38> There are cards too, not only rules in there!
12:46:07 <b_jonas> “Loyalty abilities have {T} as part of their cost.” - what? wouldn't that make the middle ability of Gideon, Champion of Justice very difficult to use effectively?
12:47:19 <b_jonas> and apparently Khans has another similar planeswalker: Sharkan, the Dragonspeaker
12:47:48 <b_jonas> but even without this, what purpose would that change serve?
12:47:54 <zzo38> I deleted that paragraph now.
12:49:48 <zzo38> (You may want to reload; I don't know if you have the newest version with other minor changes too.)
12:50:53 <b_jonas> oh dear, Aether Hack sounds scary
12:51:18 <b_jonas> does it let me change -1/-1 counters to +2/+2 counters? or whatever is the best counter in existance
12:51:45 <zzo38> Only references to named (not +X/+X and -X/-X) counters can be changed.
12:52:45 <zzo38> I added that clarification.
12:53:21 <b_jonas> (+2/+2 and -2/-2 seems to be the best)
12:53:25 <b_jonas> can you change to poison counters?
12:53:44 <b_jonas> not that it helps much, because players barely get other counters
12:54:24 <zzo38> Yes, exactly that.
12:55:26 <b_jonas> so I can't change _from_ -1/-1 counters either?
12:55:34 <b_jonas> ah, it says "named counter" now
12:56:59 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct it can't change _from_ -1/-1 or +1/+1 counters either.
12:58:46 <b_jonas> what cards are there that refer to any type of counter, besides Aether Snap, Clockspinning, and Giant Fan?
12:59:18 <zzo38> Also, it cannot change counters that are already on a permanent, although it may partially or fully stop those counters from working.
12:59:49 <b_jonas> sure, but it can make a spell enter the battlefield with the wrong type of counters
13:00:26 <zzo38> Yes, it can, in some cases.
13:00:30 <b_jonas> hmm, a super-strong Searchlight that adds to each player's mana pool? weird
13:00:52 <b_jonas> Change Designation - um, doesn't this break some sort of rules?
13:01:01 <b_jonas> plus it might be hard to track because it doesn't time out
13:01:11 <b_jonas> well, at least it's an aura
13:01:29 <zzo38> It does expire when the aura is removed (or its ability is removed).
13:01:46 <zzo38> What kind of rules is it breaking exactly?
13:02:23 <b_jonas> because you can mostly already change names with copy effects
13:02:49 <b_jonas> it lets you double Legendary creatures under the same control of course,
13:03:00 <b_jonas> or help or hinder Echoing spells
13:03:06 <b_jonas> but that's not rules breakage
13:03:33 <b_jonas> Biovisionary… what the heck is this? is that card for real?
13:06:15 <b_jonas> I guess it might let you get Kaldra a bit earlier, but that's also no problem
13:09:29 <b_jonas> Diligent Farmhand … what the heck? do cards like that really exist?
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13:22:00 <b_jonas> what the heck, there's an aura in Fallen Empires that gives a creature the homarid abilities?
13:22:23 <b_jonas> (well, technically it doesn't)
13:32:55 <b_jonas> Control Yourself -- a bit narrow, but could work against Lure abilities, or possibly on cards with activated abilities an opponent can play
13:33:14 <zzo38> Yes, although maybe the name should be changed too
13:33:23 <b_jonas> like Clergy of the Holy Nimbus
13:33:36 <b_jonas> or that undamagable stone lion thing
13:33:58 <zzo38> Yes, that is some of the uses of this card.
13:34:47 <b_jonas> technically it could also protect you if you're going to be mindslaved
13:35:26 <b_jonas> no wait, it doesn't help for that
13:37:32 <b_jonas> that lion thing is Glittering Lion
13:38:37 <b_jonas> oh, maybe also "must attack" creatures, there are a lot of those
13:42:23 <b_jonas> Corrupt Council - what the... how does this work? Basically, if you activate its ability, then you want to vote "yes", and then the opponent may have him draw a card in exchange for you drawing three cards?
13:42:45 <b_jonas> unless you have extra votes or something.
13:43:33 <zzo38> Yes it is how it works. But I don't know possibly the costs should be changed?
13:44:55 <zzo38> Well, I fixed it so that whoever win a vote has to pay {1} before gaining 1 life and/or drawing 1 card.
13:45:28 <b_jonas> Diamond of Many Colors - why does this say "All mana in your mana pool is changed into a single color of your choice." rather than "Change all mana in your mana pool into a single color of your choice."?
13:45:49 <zzo38> I could change the wording if that would help.
13:46:28 <b_jonas> though this seems somewhat inefficient to me, and I'd rarely use it over that shaman guy
13:47:32 <b_jonas> I mean, I would like more tools for coloring mana infinitely, but this seems underpowered to me
13:48:40 <b_jonas> whoa... Emblegoyf gets +1/+1 for each object in the command zone... wait a minute
13:49:01 <b_jonas> does that get like 20/20 if there's a pack of Archenemy schemes there?
13:49:20 <b_jonas> and if you play it in Archenemy, that's guaranteed
13:49:25 <zzo38> Yes, probably the cost is too low
13:49:36 <b_jonas> no, the problem is that you can't cost it correctly
13:49:46 <b_jonas> because in archenemy, it's always a 20/20 creature
13:49:48 <zzo38> Either that it maybe it should be banned, or apply only to emblems
13:51:39 <zzo38> Or possibly only face-up objects.
13:52:27 <zzo38> I don't know what the rule is, but I assume it is if it isn't face-down.
13:53:32 <b_jonas> Energy Conversation ... hmm, this is funny
13:54:39 <zzo38> I now changed it to "non-face-down object"
13:56:20 <b_jonas> Epicize is scary, but it has a high cost
13:57:23 <zzo38> And it can be removed with Disenchant.
13:57:43 <b_jonas> but doesn't it makes games boring and non-interactive once you cast it?
13:58:13 <b_jonas> like that deck I made that quickly gains me infinite life but then takes its sweet time to wait until the opponents are decked
13:58:21 <b_jonas> and tries to refill my library
13:58:22 <zzo38> You can still do stuff other than cast spells.
13:58:37 <b_jonas> and my opponents can still do stuff other than damage me
13:58:58 <b_jonas> they can try to counter my stuff that refills my library, which is the most effective tactics but only because that part of my deck sucked,
13:59:37 <b_jonas> I wonder, what spells of your own can it be worth to cast Epicize?
14:02:06 <b_jonas> hmm, a 2/2 creature with flying, trample, first strike costing any two different colors of mana, isn't that a bit overpowered in a two-colored deck?
14:02:39 <b_jonas> hey! I was serious about the exact text of Fair Duel
14:02:43 <zzo38> It has affinity for lands too though
14:03:15 <b_jonas> Angelic Favor says "Cast Angelic Favor only during combat."
14:03:18 <b_jonas> that's the text this should have too
14:03:36 <zzo38> OK I fixed Fair Duel except that it refers to itself using a tilde.
14:03:36 <b_jonas> not "Can be used only during", that makes it look like some old card back before sane templating
14:03:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh wait, you mean the affinity is mandatory
14:04:10 <b_jonas> so if I have five lands it can only get one +1/+1 counter?\
14:04:37 <b_jonas> yes, then it might be not so overpowered
14:04:40 <zzo38> Yes, I believe affinity is mandatory.
14:06:46 <b_jonas> Fast Aging ... what's that good for? countering permanents that already have cumulative upkeep?
14:08:11 <zzo38> One thing it is capable of doing is allow its controller to sacrifice it during their upkeep if they do not want that card anymore, even if it does not already have cumulative upkeep.
14:08:19 <b_jonas> Hex Shield - that's like an improved Diplomatic Immunity?
14:08:58 <zzo38> Yes it is like that.
14:10:24 <b_jonas> in Human Supremacy Corporation, the template should be "This ability may be activated by any player." instead of "Can be used by anyone."
14:10:49 <b_jonas> it's "Any player may activate this ability."
14:11:30 <zzo38> Next card I also fixed in the same way.
14:13:19 <b_jonas> oh, Instant Infection can target spells or non-creature permanents... interesting
14:13:53 <b_jonas> if I target a spell, does it keep that ability if that spell resolves to a permanent? my guess is no, but I'm not sure about the rules
14:14:15 <zzo38> I believe it does; an object moving from the stack into play doesn't reset.
14:14:39 <b_jonas> it does reset, but there's a large exception I think
14:14:48 <b_jonas> it keeps some of its characteristic changes
14:15:38 <zzo38> I don't really know, let me look it up too, but I thought at least it didn't used to reset in some version of the rules? I'm not sure
14:15:51 <b_jonas> "400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes."
14:15:56 <zzo38> O, yes that's correct.
14:16:50 <b_jonas> also I think there's a rule somewhere that face down spells resolve face down
14:17:40 <b_jonas> Knowledge Enforcer - hmm, a reverse magpie
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14:18:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Budget]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41591&oldid=41560 * Oerjan * (+162) You're right
14:18:28 <b_jonas> Landscape Formation - ah, this is that one you were asking about
14:19:17 <b_jonas> you didn't dare to call it "Yo Mama So Fat He's Got His Own Postal Code" or "Officer, I Hit Him Because I Didn't Have Enough Gas To Drive Around Him"
14:19:30 <b_jonas> I guess you could still put that in the flavor text
14:19:52 <zzo38> Those names are silly and long, but yes they could be used in flavor text if anyone renders the cards.
14:20:12 <zzo38> (Of course, different renders can have different flavor text and/or different art.)
14:20:49 <b_jonas> Magical Armory - what the, can you even have a non-equipment just gain equip?
14:21:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Budget]]": Off topic and uninteresting
14:21:45 <zzo38> The rules do not seem to prohibit it.
14:22:37 <b_jonas> um, why does Magus of Suspension have that last ability?
14:22:44 <b_jonas> how is it related to the rest?
14:23:08 <b_jonas> Master of the Dragons - oh no, another Old Fogey!
14:23:31 <zzo38> It isn't but I put it there to allow doing more damage, but maybe it shouldn't be?
14:24:30 <zzo38> (If Magical Armory is played on a global enchantment, I think the Equip ability is still usable but does nothing in such a case.)
14:25:58 <b_jonas> dunno, maybe make it 1/2 and give it an activated switch power and toughness ability
14:27:13 <b_jonas> or just remove it entirely and assume blue players will figure out something interesting to do with it rather than just want it to deal more damage
14:27:26 <zzo38> Yes probably that is better OK
14:27:34 <b_jonas> those five paragraphs don't even fit easily on a card
14:27:45 <b_jonas> though you could try to put the first four in the same paragraph
14:28:06 <b_jonas> suspend should be on its own
14:28:27 <b_jonas> how about "Suspend 4 -- {U}" as the first paragraph, then "Vanishing 4, flying" as the second
14:28:58 <b_jonas> in Master of the Dragons, don't capitalize all those abilities individually
14:29:04 <zzo38> OK, yes it can help to do that as am abbreviation.
14:29:35 <b_jonas> and don't capitalize "Dragons" either
14:29:52 <zzo38> Aren't subtypes always capitalized though?
14:30:58 <b_jonas> yes, it seems so from Nath's Buffoon
14:31:04 <b_jonas> ok, so "Dragons" should remain capitalized
14:31:29 <b_jonas> and change "Usable only during your turn." to something like "Activate this ability only during your turn."
14:33:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41592&oldid=41587 * Oerjan * (+39) author, links
14:33:20 <b_jonas> Master Switch - bringing back the old rules like Jar Jar Binks from Droidekar does? hmm
14:33:36 <b_jonas> what next? will you add a card with an ability that reinstates mana burn?
14:33:53 <zzo38> Well, it stops working itself once its own activated ability is used
14:34:34 <zzo38> No it says it only works while untapped
14:34:53 <b_jonas> then I don't know how this would work
14:35:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Yearcats]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41593&oldid=38196 * Oerjan * (+26) Update
14:35:42 <zzo38> But if you have two then you can turn off one artifact.
14:37:17 <b_jonas> Modular Aura - interesting, that's a bit similar to Vigeaqn Hydropon
14:39:28 <b_jonas> Moon Monolith - hehe, so you'll have to remember which handful of cards are errataed to have color indicators? (Evermind, the suspend spells with no mana costs, Dryad Arbor I think)
14:40:10 <b_jonas> Painful Markings - whoa.... interesting, though I'm not sure it should be red
14:40:34 <zzo38> I could change the mana cost if it help to do so.
14:40:59 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure what color it should be really
14:41:18 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem to fit anywhere
14:42:54 <b_jonas> Personal Guard - wait what? how is a personal guard too slow to jump in front of a bullet? that's now how they work in Hollywood films
14:44:12 <b_jonas> isn't having to pay {1W} enough of a restriction to activate that ability reacting to a surprise?
14:44:41 <zzo38> Probably you are correct.
14:45:42 <zzo38> But even in such case you can still react during declare attackers/declare blockers step if the stack is empty.
14:45:55 <b_jonas> sure, but not for a Lightning Bolt
14:46:21 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct.
14:46:40 <zzo38> For now I just changed the cost to {1} but later may make other changes.
14:46:57 <b_jonas> Scroll of Cryptic Runes - "Put target spell into play" - hehehe
14:47:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41594&oldid=41580 * Oerjan * (+80) wikify a bit
14:49:13 <b_jonas> um, can you paly that card with its madness ability if the stack isn't empty?
14:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41595&oldid=41594 * Oerjan * (-5) On second thought, I don't think it fits our definition of "joke language"
14:49:48 <zzo38> Yes, I believe madness allows it.
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14:50:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41596&oldid=41574 * Oerjan * (+12) /* V */ Add Vigil
14:51:14 <b_jonas> "Scroll of Protection" - hmm, I have a crazy card with protection somewhere
14:51:26 <b_jonas> but one that gives protection
14:51:30 <J_Arcane> Ugh. wtf. OK, trying to write an actual application in F# now, and I'm suddenly understanding why everyone hates writing code on MS platforms ...
14:51:35 <nys> always wear protection
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14:55:06 <J_Arcane> I just want to write a simple script that reads some text files and then outputs another text file, but apparently even predicting the current directory of an F# script/executable is non-trivial.
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14:56:07 <b_jonas> I think it was something like an aura that gives every creature protection from the enchanted permanent.
14:56:08 <J_Arcane> Script files default to a Windows temp directory, and executables build to a nested subfolder deep in the bowels of the project.
14:56:38 <J_Arcane> Oh, and of course, script files and source files have completely different behaviors when it comes to a main function. So that's fun.
14:57:41 <b_jonas> "Staff of Kicking" - how is this a staff rather than boots?
14:58:12 <zzo38> It is staff with boots on it; it is not equipment so it is not boots.
14:58:25 <b_jonas> Stone of Interruption - what
14:59:06 <b_jonas> how would you even activate that ability while there's a split second spell on the stack?
14:59:57 <zzo38> Split second doesn't stop mana abilities from being used.
15:00:19 <zzo38> This ability meets the criteria for being a mana ability, therefore it can be used.
15:00:21 <b_jonas> Suppress Quality - how does this affect landwalk?
15:00:59 <b_jonas> and what does "not choosing any parameters" mean?
15:01:00 <zzo38> Causes all landwalk abilities to be lost.
15:01:16 <zzo38> It means you have to choose Landwalk, you can't choose Forestwalk or Swampwalk or whatever.
15:01:30 <zzo38> You can use Protection, but not Protection from red or whatever like that.
15:01:52 <b_jonas> then put a comma before it, or possibly even rewrite it to more readable
15:02:09 <b_jonas> I thought it would apply only to parameterless keyword abilities like flying or trample, not parametered ones like enchant
15:02:13 <zzo38> Yes it could be rewritten but I am not quite sure how.
15:02:35 <b_jonas> so this works like that Wall thingy
15:02:51 <b_jonas> only better because it can destroy all auras
15:03:11 <zzo38> Its cost is so high because it can do so many things.
15:04:01 <zzo38> The ability does nothing when it resolves.
15:04:11 <b_jonas> oh, then maybe write that explicitly
15:05:49 <b_jonas> that's one of those auras that you can play for your own or an opponent's monster
15:06:08 <b_jonas> Triangle of Protection - NO WAY!
15:07:34 <b_jonas> it might work, I dunno, but it's scary
15:08:14 <b_jonas> especially at such a low cost
15:08:36 <zzo38> Yes, I thought maybe it should be increased, but I don't know how much.
15:09:11 <b_jonas> Unearthed Arcana - again what
15:09:35 <b_jonas> I mean, how is it better than the same thing without splice?
15:09:36 <zzo38> Splicing other cards onto it mainly, I suppose.
15:09:56 <b_jonas> splicing stuff on it... yes, that might work
15:10:22 <b_jonas> thuogh we have better cards for that, like Reach Through Mists
15:10:34 <b_jonas> but why does it have the splice ability?
15:10:51 <b_jonas> Arcane helps you splice stuff on it, or lets you trigger stuff
15:11:04 <zzo38> Possibly something might do something with that, even if no such card currently exists, I don't know for sure.
15:13:00 <b_jonas> Universal Salvation - nice
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15:13:23 <b_jonas> Wall of Attachment - doesn't seem very useful, but whatever
15:14:05 <b_jonas> not sure if it is useful or not
15:15:26 <b_jonas> Wall of Demons - seems not very efficient to me
15:15:57 <b_jonas> but at least some people still like walls, even walls with power. wizards seems to have stopped printing them.
15:16:57 <b_jonas> thanks for sharing these cards
15:18:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Trinary]]": Obsolete redirect
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15:22:16 <zzo38> Later I might write some more, but, not right now!
15:22:22 <b_jonas> or they reprint Wall of Wood over Steel Wall
15:23:01 <nys> Larry Wall
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17:08:49 <lambdabot> CYQB 041700Z 08015G21KT 3SM -FZRA -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2970 RMK SN2SC6 PRESFR SLP062
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17:24:46 <fizzie> Happy -FZRA -SN day to you, too.
17:24:55 <lambdabot> EGLL 041720Z VRB04KT 4100 BR FEW002 SCT003 BKN004 03/02 Q1036 NOSIG
17:25:05 <fizzie> I don't know what BR means.
17:25:32 <fizzie> (But those are some pretty low clouds.)
17:26:19 <fizzie> BR is apparently mist, due to what is undoubtedly a perfectly logical reason.
17:27:21 <olsner> iirc it's from the french word for mist
17:27:22 <lambdabot> EDDL 041720Z 25005KT 9999 FEW020 03/01 Q1035 NOSIG
17:27:23 <boily> BR is French «brouillard».
17:27:40 <boily> hellolsner. you ninjaed me.
17:29:10 <olsner> I recalled a shorter word though, something like brume
17:31:47 <boily> oh. hm. mistake on my part. sorry.
17:31:58 <boily> BR is «brume», which is “mist”.
17:32:10 <boily> («brouillard» is “fog”.)
17:33:33 <boily> but then, according to the wikipédias, the terms refer to similar meteorological phenomenons, and are used differently depending on context.
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17:39:55 <HackEgo> 989) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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17:51:22 <Taneb> `quote field of cows
17:51:30 <Taneb> `quote field full of cows
17:51:34 <HackEgo> 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 989) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows \ 995) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile o
17:51:50 <Taneb> I wanted that first one
17:52:11 <boily> `quote Taneb.*?cows
17:52:12 <HackEgo> 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
17:52:23 <Taneb> I did not know you could do that
17:53:15 <HackEgo> 995) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark
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18:14:27 <boily> fizzie: egrep or pgrep?
18:14:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
18:15:01 <quintopia> you sure havent been on steam in a long time mr. cuttle
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18:16:49 <boily> quintopia: >_>;...
18:18:43 <boily> yeah. and tomorrow it starts again. bleh.
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18:20:35 <quintopia> anyone know a job with benefits and normal hours
18:21:53 <boily> hours are normal here, and always within standard deviation.
18:21:53 <olsner> random coder job? if you don't end up having to do overtime, that is
18:23:24 <quintopia> boily what is the stdev of hours there?
18:23:42 <quintopia> and are you sure they arent skewed left?
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18:26:32 <boily> quintopia: a workday amounts to 7.5 hours (contract definition), but longest I've had was 9, I believe.
18:26:52 <boily> (previous job was much worse. personal record was 14 hours straight, on a Saturday.)
18:27:22 <boily> without appointments and similar, 7 I think?
18:28:37 <quintopia> and how often is it 7 and how often is it 9?
18:30:15 <boily> we've had a bout of light workload after the big Major Release, and heavy duty just before that.
18:31:10 <boily> (not many people overtimed like crazy. I did a few days because I self-inflicted some stupid bright ideas on myself... in the end it did work out and saved the company a non-homeopathic amount of money, but never again.)
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18:33:07 <boily> we're always open to people who can make their way with Java and/or C++, know linear algebra, and French.
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18:34:51 <quintopia> well that last one is a deal breaker. i havent the froggiedt how to frenxh
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18:53:11 <skj3gg> ... sorry, cat thought the best path to the other side of the couch was across my computer
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19:25:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crewjony * New user account
19:26:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Crewjony]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41597 * Crewjony * (+74) Created page with "0x29A is an esoteric programming language, invented by David Lewis in 2004"
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19:30:02 <fizzie> I mean, it's the captcha question.
19:30:56 <ais523> I suspect it's a spambot
19:31:06 <ais523> desperately looking for anything apparently relevant to put on the page
19:43:02 <mroman> Somebody could make unicode captchas
19:43:27 <mroman> And then you have to enter the exact name of the character according to unicode
19:43:37 <mroman> `unicode small rectangle
19:43:42 <HackEgo> U+2327 X IN A RECTANGLE BOX \ UTF-8: e2 8c a7 UTF-16BE: 2327 Decimal: ⌧ \ ⌧ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+25AC BLACK RECTANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 96 ac UTF-16BE: 25ac Decimal: ▬ \ ▬ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+25AD WHITE RECTANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 96 ad UTF-16BE: 25a
19:44:17 <mroman> "Sorry, your answer 'X IN A RECTANGLE' was wrong."
19:56:06 <myname> Sorry, your answer 'invisible plus' was wrong.
20:05:03 <Sgeo> Make up a character and a name, and it has to get accepted into Unicode
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20:12:11 <Taneb> Sgeo, GIRAFFE WEARING ROLLERBLADES EMOJI
20:12:52 <Sgeo> If it doesn't look like a giraffe wearing rollerblades, I think we can conclude you're not human
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21:08:40 <myname> is there any golfy way to swap the first two elements of a haskell list?
21:09:33 <coppro> myname: swapHeads (x1:x2:xs) = x2:x1:xs; swapHeads xs = xs ?
21:09:45 <ais523> coppro: that was pretty much what I was going to write
21:09:54 <ais523> but with a 1-letter name because it's golfed ;-)
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22:01:45 <Solace> Although this was yesterday and I have no furthur need to talk about it
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22:36:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found
22:45:25 <Taneb> ais523, did you forget what year it was
22:45:35 <ais523> just making sure it's still working
22:45:55 <Taneb> how could it concievably not work?
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23:11:30 <Sgeo> I think LSL poisoned my brain
23:11:54 <Sgeo> Trying to do Javascript. Desperately avoiding global variables by abusing closures. Everything is in one large function
23:12:54 <elliott> that's, um... literally what idiomatic javascript does
23:14:03 <Sgeo> That makes me feel better
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23:14:17 <elliott> fizzie: ais523: crewjony is obviously Johny of My name is Johny, what the F**K?????
23:14:29 <elliott> the prophecy is coming true
23:15:01 <elliott> Sgeo: like, you've seen the (function () { ... })(); thing, right?
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23:17:42 <ais523> elliott: wasn't that a spambot, though?
23:17:48 <ais523> also, did you ever write that language?
23:18:08 <elliott> ais523: you clearly have no understanding of the scriptures
23:18:18 <elliott> the language can only be created by johny himself
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23:24:32 <oerjan> elliott: finally it all makes sense
23:27:15 <oerjan> <ais523> desperately looking for anything apparently relevant to put on the page <-- it's the spambot of the beast hth
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00:59:23 <zzo38> If a card with Storm targets spells, can it target the spell it is a copy of?
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01:02:02 <zzo38> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382942 does not say.
01:02:27 <boily> I suppose so. 702.39a says that new target can be chosen, and that copies are on the stack.
01:06:40 <Solace> Oh you guys and your games
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01:09:08 <boily> Solace: it's not a game.
01:11:46 <Solace> oh you guys and your things
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01:13:58 <boily> Solace: we're not guys. we're Canadians!
01:15:56 <boily> it's not god, it's fungot!
01:15:56 <fungot> boily: i think c's syntax is closer to being 80 times slower. ( both sarahbot and fsbot have this problem; it always bugs me when sarahbot initiates the ai when she should be saying ' i need to
01:16:24 <boily> fungot: stop being sentient.
01:16:30 <int-e> Waiting for Fungot?
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01:17:46 <int-e> Not I want to see sarahbot and fsbot.
01:20:18 <int-e> myname: btw I believe "Smiley's triangle" is a problem where the Haskell records are out of reach (55 is possible; as far as I can see, 52 requires n+k-patterns which were removed in Haskell2010)
01:20:35 * int-e swats himself for that apostrophe.
01:21:12 <myname> what are n+k-patterns?
01:21:23 <int-e> > let f (n+1) = n in (f 1, f 0)
01:21:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: n + 1
01:21:29 <myname> i am not sure if i could shorten my solution much more
01:21:46 <myname> why were they removed?
01:21:52 <int-e> with NPlusKPatterns: (0,*** Exception: <interactive>:3:5-15: Non-exhaustive patterns in function f
01:23:52 <myname> while we are at it, are there good ways to not use unlines?
01:23:58 <myname> it takes quite the space
01:25:32 <int-e> myname: There is no hard reason, just a general dislike for their semantics (they only match if n>=0) and lack of use. There is a compiler writer argument (they translate to a pattern that's a variable, followed by another assignment to a fesh variable and a comparison)... but by the same argument the plain N-patterns (0, 1, 2,..., -1,...) would also have to go, and those were kept because they're...
01:25:39 <int-e> ...just too useful.
01:26:01 <int-e> myname: it's not always possible, but sometimes do notation and ++"\n" are shorter.
01:26:15 <lambdabot> CYRQ 050120Z AUTO 22014KT 3SM BR OVC003 M01/M01 A2941 RMK ICG PAST HR SLP962
01:26:33 <myname> how picky is the site about trailing newlines?
01:26:41 <int-e> myname: for output, mapM putStrLn is shorter than putStr.unlines
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01:28:59 <int-e> myname: it only removes trailing whitespace at the end of output; all other whitespace is critical.
01:29:23 <int-e> so "a\nb" is the same as "a\nb \n\t " but not the same as "a \nb"
01:30:23 <int-e> (Hmm, I'm guessing about the \t here.)
01:32:17 <myname> also: how the hell are the languages sorted?
01:32:48 <int-e> possibly chronologically by time of being added?
01:33:47 <int-e> I mean I don't know, but that would explain why Ruby comes first (the site is written in ruby after all)
01:34:47 <myname> i am a bit confused sometimes
01:35:00 <myname> what the hell is f"oo" for haskell?
01:36:04 <myname> ah, i forgot that ++ binds weaker
01:37:27 <Solace> replacer bot in here s/this/replace
01:37:30 <int-e> So it's not the order of addition. "jq" was added very recently and comes somewhere in the middle. So I don't know.
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01:39:40 <myname> also i am very confused by these mid-sized solutions
01:39:52 <myname> (not to talk about these 1157 php ones)
01:40:20 <myname> i mean, 492 characters in scheme
01:40:41 <int-e> it's shorter than the total output ;-)
01:41:19 <myname> but to be 9 times as large as the shortest given solution is poor
01:41:26 <int-e> the php one is probably a single print statement?
01:41:29 <boily> exploring the limits of Kolmogorov complexity, one atrocious program at a time.
01:41:44 <myname> i don't know how it handles php
01:41:58 <myname> if you need tags, you could just copy&paste the output and be shorter
01:43:08 <myname> this second line really gets me
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01:44:55 <myname> maybe i should start learning that do syntax
01:45:09 <myname> is it shorter than list comprehension?
01:45:51 <int-e> the point is that do x <- foo; bar x is the concatenation of [bar x | x <- foo]
01:46:28 <myname> but this is still equally long
01:47:10 <int-e> the list comprehension is one character shorter, but you get the concatenation almost for free.
01:47:38 <int-e> (foo>>=bar is even shorter, of course.)
01:47:57 <myname> given i don't need the parameter named
01:48:47 <myname> okay, i have problems with that do
01:49:39 <myname> do x<-[1..];putStrLn$take x "foo" gives me a type mismatch
01:49:49 <int-e> another use of do notation is m@main=do n<-readLn;<something>;m
01:50:21 <myname> not sure if it's actually shorter than interact
01:50:29 <int-e> myname: well, it'd have to be mapM putStrLn$do x<-[1..];..., and suddenly the do is not worth it anymore.
01:50:52 <myname> i thought i could replace the mapM using do
01:51:04 <int-e> or rather... putStr$do x<-[1..];take x"foo"++"\n" still not worth it.
01:51:12 <int-e> myname: only in the list monad
01:51:22 <int-e> actually, scratch that.
01:51:35 <int-e> you cannot do mapM in do notation.
01:52:42 <int-e> But one can switch between mapM putStrLn and putStr.unlines, and the unlines is basically concatenation, which you can get "almost for free" in do notation
01:52:50 <int-e> impossible to predict.
01:53:37 <myname> i am not sure if i can follow you there
01:55:12 <int-e> I can show you a 55 character solution that should be very close to what you currently have, if you like
01:55:31 <int-e> (not using do notation; I don't think it helps for this problem)
01:55:42 <myname> i can get to 57 but now missing newlines
01:55:56 <myname> i cannot get putStrLn into a do block, can i?
01:56:13 <int-e> not in any useful way, for this problem
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01:56:38 <myname> but i get what you mean with the concatenation thing
01:56:42 <int-e> (as far as I can see.)
01:57:34 <myname> i could show you what i have, that may be more fair
01:58:18 <int-e> sure. message me if you like (oerjan hates spoilers)
01:58:43 <boily> is oerjan stalking us now?
01:59:52 <myname> isn't he the one who basically reads all the log files?
02:00:17 <int-e> boily: oerjan is almost always reading the logs
02:00:37 <myname> that's how the bots learnt about my twin
02:00:55 * boily chants a few OKAYs towards the Spirit of Oerjan
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02:15:00 * pikhq wonders if ais523 is currently at AGDQ 2015 or not
02:15:23 <pikhq> Allegedly he is involved in some way with the TASbot bit.
02:15:23 <coppro> what happened to pokemon red?
02:15:32 <pikhq> It got pushed around it looks like.
02:15:40 <pikhq> Going after the mystery game rather than before.
02:16:23 <elliott> pikhq: "no, but he's at AGDQ 2016"
02:17:04 <pikhq> Been fun finally watching that thing live.
02:18:08 <zzo38> I can see a copy of a stormed spell can copy the original, but for example could the first copy of a Flusterstorm spell target the original, the second copy target the first copy, the third copy targets the second copy, etc?
02:20:06 <pikhq> No, just watching on my TV.
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02:26:50 <elliott> okay it's in nowhere, virginia
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02:36:26 <pikhq> Okay, the Pokemon Red TASbot demo was beautiful.
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02:42:48 <pikhq> ais523: Pray tell, what was your involvement in this delight?
02:43:11 <coppro> pikhq: ais523 came up with the triple takeover idea
02:43:13 <ais523> pikhq: the idea of breaking into an SGB
02:43:22 <ais523> when people were thinking of the game inside as the "game"
02:43:44 <pikhq> So, the concept that made it delightful, but not really the implementation.
02:43:55 <ais523> I wasn't that much involved in the implementation
02:43:58 <ais523> we had much more planned than that
02:44:10 <ais523> some of my other parts didn't make it in, either due to technical issues or because it was shortened for time
02:44:12 <ais523> but I'm fine with that
02:44:15 <ais523> it had the desired effect
02:44:51 <ais523> not sure how much I should reveal because they may be planning to do the whole thing later
02:44:51 <pikhq> Presumably that'll be in the bonus stream if possible.
02:45:04 <ais523> and I don't want to steal anyone else's thunder
02:45:09 <ais523> if it was just me I'd tell you everything
02:45:26 <pikhq> Pokemon Red was definitely a good choice though.
02:45:42 <pikhq> I'll probably pester you for details after the marathon. :)
02:45:50 <ais523> one thing that was mentioned: I worked on some of the lines TASbot sent to Twitch chat, but it was so spammy nobody could actually see them
02:46:30 <elliott> wait it actually sent messages back the other way?
02:46:36 <elliott> like how did it communicate them from the NES
02:46:40 <pikhq> Wait, was TASbot running the IRC connection, or was the SNES?
02:46:50 <ais523> not the SNES itself, we were going to until we realised that was silly
02:47:09 <pikhq> It's possible but probably *pretty tricky* to do from an SNES.
02:47:24 <coppro> Pokemon Red is poetic, because it flipped TPP around
02:47:32 <pikhq> Actually, I think it'd be much easier on an NES.
02:47:33 <coppro> (and I saw a could of start9s in the chat too)
02:49:07 <FireFly> I really liked both the SMW and Red TASes
02:49:24 <pikhq> Pity that ended up being slightly buggy.
02:50:06 <pikhq> (I presume a very *miniscule* missync that only showed up when the SNES controller port was being used as a mildly high-speed interface?)
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02:53:14 <ais523> pikhq: I'm not 100% sure what happened, and it lasted longer than I expected
02:53:30 <ais523> I /think/ it was a bug that they figured out a workaround but not a fix for, but I'm not clear on it
02:53:32 <int-e> zzo38: "When you play this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was cast before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number of the copies." is poorly phrased; it leaves unclear when exactly the new targets are chosen. I /suppose/ you do that as part of putting the copy on the stack.
02:53:51 <ais523> int-e: it all happens at once; also, Storm is a pre-existing ability, and that's reminder text
02:54:01 <ais523> there's a section in the rules for it specifically
02:54:32 <int-e> ais523: that is the rules text.
02:54:53 <int-e> (if I can believe the mtgsalvation wiki)
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02:55:56 <int-e> ais523: the most extreme reading is that everything is put on the stack, and then you choose targets on the stack, so a spell could target a spell higher up on the stack. (but not itself...)
02:59:26 <zzo38> I am confused about such thing too
03:07:33 <FireFly> Apparently the PPT part will be re-shown in full later in the week
03:08:25 <int-e> . o O ( Card: Stack Overflow. Type: Instant. Cost: 0. Text: You win the game. You may only cast this spell if there are at least 20 items (spells or abilities) on the stack. )
03:09:29 <zzo38> Maybe it should cost more than zero though.
03:10:41 <int-e> perhaps s/Stack Overflow/Combo Breaker/
03:10:47 <coppro> pikhq: from the sounds of what they were saying, the cables are sufficiently bad and what they are doing is sufficiently precise that crossing cables over one another can induce electromagnetic interference enough to mess things up. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was something that broke it slightly
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03:11:04 <pikhq> Oh right, that did happen last year too.
03:11:09 <int-e> Also I suspect there are ways of getting a spell on the stack without casting it.
03:11:25 * pikhq sighs a bit though
03:11:45 <pikhq> Had a root canal on Tuesday, and the really sharp toothache is back in the same tooth.
03:12:17 * Sgeo wonders what pikhq thinks of Prismata
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04:47:34 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/ob4RHT7.png
04:48:16 <Sgeo> So, is it a bad idea for me to just aggregate copyrights+warnings? Maybe each route's warniings should be listed with each destination, rather than all at the top
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04:58:09 <Sgeo> I do want to display per-route information anyway
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05:16:09 <coppro> whatever font chrome uses for Wikipedia renders 👻 as a pac-man ghost
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05:16:21 <HackEgo> U+1F47B GHOST \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 bb UTF-16BE: d83ddc7b Decimal: 👻 \ 👻 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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05:18:49 <Solace> Sometimes people input special symbals they make tbh on wikipedia
05:19:03 <Solace> so other computers can't really render them.correctly
05:20:14 <coppro> no, this is using native font rendering
05:21:04 <Solace> I cannot believe a swastika is a symbol that you can make with alt symbols
05:21:54 <HackEgo> [U+5350 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5350] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+534D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-534D]
05:22:44 <Solace> Well I didn't know that
05:23:04 <copumpkin> both of them are pronounced wàn in mandarin, apparently
05:23:43 <Solace> off hand they should crook one of the branches
05:23:51 <Solace> so it doesn't look like the broken cross
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05:26:03 <lifthrasiir> Solace, copumpkin: they are common buddhism signs.
05:26:27 <copumpkin> that doesn't necessarily justify their inclusion in unicode though
05:26:46 <Solace> Well if Hitler hadn't changed the German sign for peace
05:26:50 <copumpkin> but the fact that they're also considered chinese characters (obviously for the reasons you mentioned) does
05:26:57 <Solace> We wouldn't be having this discussion
05:27:24 <lifthrasiir> of course, it is not intended for Swatchka (is this spelling right?)
05:28:31 <Solace> https://i.imgur.com/zx8qFta.jpg
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05:32:05 <Solace> I wish I could contribute to the wiki but it seems all of my 'original' ideas have already been thought of
05:35:20 <Solace> Also the having a bot on a different name thing is annoying so ill just keep it on my accounts
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05:45:54 <Solace> or should the my be in quotations
05:46:10 <Solace> to imply they were never mine and I just had a burst of thought
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05:49:25 <Sgeo> I love forgetting that the stuff I want is in a list instead of being a single entity
05:51:07 <Solace> is it like when you have a random stack that isn't filled and you pull from another that is and put it in that but accidently put the entire stack into that one and crash everything
05:51:16 <Solace> sigh I've done that a lot lately
05:51:31 <Solace> maybe that's why the school was able to link so quickly
05:52:19 <Solace> or my vps wasn't payed for and I've forgotten again
05:54:20 <Solace> I'm just going off on a tangent and anxiety levels are through the roof
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06:09:37 <int-e> Solace: Don't kill anybody.
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06:19:05 <Sgeo> Is there a rule of UI design that says "Don't put too much text"?
06:19:07 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/MYGcHIe.png
06:19:20 <Sgeo> I'm a fast reader, but slower readers might have problems with this, especially as I add more bullet points
06:20:15 <coppro> you shoudl also be drawing attention to the more importan info
06:20:59 <Sgeo> I don't know what's most important to the user
06:21:11 <Sgeo> Time spent walking? Whether or not taxi is required? Time waiting for transfer?
06:21:15 <Sgeo> All stuff I intend to show
06:21:34 <Sgeo> (The taxi thing is already coded but I guess these routes don't suggest it)
06:24:06 <Sgeo> 'It might be misleading as-is making it look like these are all walking routes, which they're not
06:24:31 <Sgeo> The first route displayed is walk, bus, walk, bus, walk
06:24:39 <Sgeo> Which will be displayed on the right when clicked, but still
06:28:15 <Sgeo> This feels a lot like a tablet-y UI
06:29:19 <newsham> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
06:30:09 * Sgeo is addicted to overflow-y: scroll
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07:29:19 <Solace> int-e: not if I dont have to, lol
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07:38:03 <^v> newsham, <3
07:38:05 <^v> lua is at the top
07:54:03 <int-e> oh, a (say) perl -> brainfuck -> perl quine is easier to write than a brainfuck one.
07:56:44 <Solace> all these greater than and less than
07:57:20 <int-e> and that's how the whole circle can be covered by a 12k program; for most of the languages, one just needs transformations for printing fixed strings.
07:58:32 <int-e> in principle there only needs to be one exception, but with Brainfuck appearing twice, I guess there are more intermediate programs that are actually quine-like in that they duplicate some part of themselves
07:58:51 <int-e> (Ook! is also on the circle)
07:59:13 <int-e> Piet is another one where the encoding is likely to be inefficient
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10:16:53 <oerjan> <myname> isn't he the one who basically reads all the log files? <-- now that's crazy talk
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10:37:10 <mroman> @hoogle String -> ByteString
10:37:10 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 pack :: String -> ByteString
10:37:10 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8 pack :: [Char] -> ByteString
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14:16:49 <Jafet> > 244876632^3 - 214243302^3 == 236678442^3 - 203342412^3
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14:51:28 <Taneb> Does anyone know what the notation "ℂ*" means?
14:52:14 <Taneb> Complex numbers without zero?
14:52:32 <b_jonas> Taneb: maybe complex numbers closed with infinity?
14:52:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, hmm, I think complex numbers without zero makes sense
14:53:23 <Taneb> It's from a past exam question asking whether ℂ* and o form a group where z o w = izw
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15:01:39 <b_jonas> Taneb: oh, yes, in that case without zero can make sense
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16:00:57 <Taneb> What should I know for last minute group theory revision?
16:01:29 <Jafet> Don't revise group theory all by yourself!
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16:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41598&oldid=40627 * InputUsername * (-73) Updated user page
16:57:32 <myname> so, why doesn't this work: c#[]=[];c#(h:t)|c==h=t|True=h:c#t;f l=[c:r|c<-l,r<-f$c#l]
16:58:58 <Vorpal> What the hell, I can ping my phone on WLAN from my desktop but not my laptop. ssh works fine from the desktop to the phone, but not from the laptop again. They are all on the same LAN/WLAN. Oh and laptop<->desktop works fine
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17:42:43 <Vorpal> FreeFull, it doesn't matter which AP the phone or the laptop is on (there are two physical, one with both 2.4 and 5 GHz, so 3 SSIDs in total). Or even if the laptop is on ethernet
17:47:53 <zzo38> I have book of Magic: the Puzzling and I believe I have found an alternative solution to "Near Death" which does not involve playing Baki's Curse or blocking Hungry Mist, but do you know if this alternative solution is valid under Fourth Edition rules?
17:49:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41599&oldid=39093 * 73.184.106.177 * (+7) Possible intention
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19:26:14 <zzo38> For the purposes of conceding the game in Magic: the Gathering when the game would continue (such as if there are more than two players), which effects are considered atomic?
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19:58:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think none, but there are some tricky rules on what happens when an invalid action is rewound and you've conceded:
19:59:57 <b_jonas> in a multiplayer game, if an opponent tries to cast Hex, you can concede very quickly before he chooses the targets, and that can make casting Hex invalid if there aren't enough creatures remaining, so casting Hex is rewound, but you don't rejoin the game, you and your objects have left it permanently, that isn't rewound because it isn't part of trying to cast the spell.
20:00:16 <b_jonas> it's tricky, I don't quite understand it, but that's what we surmised when I asked about this Hex situation.
20:00:51 <b_jonas> (that's a situation that could very rarely plausibly come up in a multiplayer game when you're desperate)
20:02:12 <b_jonas> (mind you, you're not likely to see a game where you can actually save your teammate this way, but it's possible that you're very close to losing and don't see any other chance)
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20:27:30 <Taneb> Exam went well, except I completely forgot there was such a thing as the Fundamental Theorem of Group Homomorphisms
20:31:54 <Taneb> If I got everything that I think I got right right, that's 93%
20:32:04 <b_jonas> wait, was it a written test?
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21:02:24 <zzo38> I read of a kind of Magic: the Gathering format called Solomon Draft. It looks like I like that one.
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21:43:01 <J_Arcane> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/01/pokemon-plays-twitch-how-a-robot-got-irc-running-on-an-unmodified-snes/
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22:12:43 <oerjan> <Taneb> Does anyone know what the notation "ℂ*" means? <-- "the group of invertible elements in ℂ under multiplication *", i should think
22:13:16 <Taneb> oerjan, the context suggested it was a set rather than a group, because the question gave another operation
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22:13:24 <Taneb> And asked "is this a group?"
22:13:41 <oerjan> (pretty sure it's a group btw)
22:14:07 <oerjan> (hint: it's isomorphic to the usual multiplication)
22:14:57 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I worked that out
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22:23:34 <oerjan> @tell myname <myname> so, why doesn't this work: c#[]=[];c#(h:t)|c==h=t|True=h:c#t;f l=[c:r|c<-l,r<-f$c#l] <-- it's empty for the f [] base case, which causes all others to be empty as well. btw 1>0 is shorter than True.
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22:42:48 <J_Arcane> hah hah. ideone supports intercal.
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23:50:52 <lambdabot> CYUL 052300Z 26013G20KT 15SM FEW030 M17/M23 A3029 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP260
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01:06:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41600&oldid=41590 * Rottytooth * (+470) /* Clarifications? */ response to Keymaker
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03:49:58 <zzo38> What happens if somehow an aura loses its Enchant ability? What happens if something that isn't an aura (such as an Equipment) gains enchant ability?
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03:51:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Perhaps you can ask in #mtgrules on EFNet.
03:54:50 <Sgeo> I wrote this code two days ago. I do not remember why I have two arguments with confusingly similar names.
03:55:15 <zzo38> What is the host name and port number for EFNet?
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03:55:51 <shachaf> I think irc.efnet.org:6667 should work.
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03:58:52 <zzo38> OK it looks like working.
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03:59:18 <Eiel> yes, my first time !!!
03:59:27 <int-e> looks to me like it's still an enchantment that is now allowed to enchant any object or player.
03:59:43 <HackEgo> Eiel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:00:14 <int-e> zzo38: but can you actually make that happen?
04:00:14 <Eiel> thank you elliott! greetings!
04:01:36 <zzo38> int-e: I thought it might be but an unsure, and it doesn't answer the second question. I do not know if anything can actually make that happen.
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04:04:41 <int-e> zzo38: "The enchant ability restricts what an Aura spell can target and what an Aura can enchant. " <-- if it isn't an aura that doesn't seem to do anything.
04:05:39 <int-e> but I agree that it's not perfectly clear.
04:06:45 <shachaf> I think if an aura lost "Enchant" it would make sense for it to be able to be able to enchant anything, because "Enchant X. Enchant Y." means it can only attach something which is both an X and a Y.
04:07:03 <shachaf> So for instance it would be able to enchant permanents, players, cards in graveyards, etc.
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04:11:50 * int-e boggles at the thought of enchanting an ability on the stack...
04:14:03 <zzo38> Yes, if it can enchant anything then clearly it could do that; I knew that part already.
04:14:33 <Sgeo> Woohoo, only one small mistake in major code change, other than that, worked on first try!
04:15:33 <shachaf> whoa, want to play prismata?
04:16:02 <zzo38> If you enchanted something on the stack, I would believe that as soon as it resolves or is countered, the enchantment is removed as a state based action, isn't it?
04:16:38 <shachaf> But you could make e.g. counterspells be enchantments with that mechanism.
04:17:24 <Sgeo> shachaf: right now, want to refactor a bit to get rid of the poorly named "place", which is easily confused with "dest"
04:17:58 <Sgeo> Or maybe some other shuffling around, putting the warning+copyright below the important stuff or something
04:21:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Scoppini * New user account
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04:32:09 <Sgeo> shachaf: ok, I'll play
04:32:44 <Sgeo> After you're done with Master Bot
04:34:10 <shachaf> whoa, does it let you see my game?
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04:48:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: What are all those engineers for?
04:48:37 <shachaf> Why block 4 with Wall+Steelsplitter instead of 2 engineers+Wall?
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04:55:48 <Sgeo> The engineers were for a vague hope that maybe I could burst build drones, so that your deadeyes can't take out all of them in a single turn, so I could get more ossifieds
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04:56:14 <shachaf> Why did you build two walls after I built a steelsplitter?
04:56:32 <shachaf> That seems way overdefensive. A wall just by itself can absorb 2 damage.
04:56:48 <Sgeo> I may have thought it made sense to prepare defensively. Probably not.
04:57:06 <Sgeo> Please do not assume that I am good at Prismata
04:58:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, they don't deal in theoretical questions, apparently.
04:59:52 <Sgeo> If there are unspecified situations that can occur, does that mean that Magic is allowed to eat your laundry?
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05:10:25 <zzo38> But I am interested even in theoretical questions.
05:16:09 <oren> so you can enchant a creature's tap ability, without enchanting the creature?
05:17:49 <oren> most of this stuff doesn't fit with the way I played Magic in grade 7
05:21:17 <oren> see we used a physical STACK of cards
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05:31:22 <zzo38> No I think you would enchant it when activated, the enchantment goes away when it resolves
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05:45:04 <zzo38> Since they don't want theoretical questions I may ask some more on here: What happens if an aura has living weapon ability?
05:46:21 <shachaf> I think the answer to many of your questions is that it never happens, so the rules don't specify the behavior.
05:46:43 <shachaf> In this case, though: 702.91a. Living weapon is a triggered ability. "Living weapon" means "When this Equipment enters the battlefield, put a 0/0 black Germ creature token onto the battlefield, then attach this Equipment to it."
05:47:22 <zzo38> I read that already.
05:47:49 <shachaf> I guess "this Equipment" is meaningless, actually. Or means the same as "this permanent".
05:48:26 <zzo38> I would think the latter, but it still leaves a few things unclear to me.
05:48:54 <shachaf> It's the latter, I think that's specified somewhere.
05:50:05 <zzo38> I think so too, but it still doesn't fully answer my question.
05:50:29 <shachaf> Yes. I don't have an answer to your question.
05:51:02 <shachaf> Other than that the rules make it reasonably clear that they don't intend to print it on non-Equipment cards. And I don't know of a way you could get it onto cards otherwise.
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06:28:18 <zzo38> I looked at the rules; it looks like to me that it first is attached to whatever it targeted, and then it tries to become attached to the Germ token if possible. Is that correct?
06:29:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe #mtg on EFNet would be more accepting of theoretical questions.
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06:34:31 <oren> i was looking through the list of banned cards, and "Falling Star" seems out of place.
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06:43:48 <b_jonas> "< int-e> looks to me like it's still an enchantment that is now allowed to enchant any object or player." - I thought it was like that since Time Spiral, when they added an aura that enchants a card in the gy.
06:44:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: "What happens if something that isn't an aura (such as an Equipment) gains enchant ability?" - hmm, there was some way to get an aura equipment in some recent set I think
06:46:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: but as for an Aura losing its "enchant" ability, I suspect that's actually impossible in vanilla M:tG, it's only possible in your variant where creature auras don't get removed, but I could be wrong
06:47:00 <b_jonas> could you animate and then humiliate an aura without getting state-based actions resolve in between?
06:48:08 <b_jonas> hmm, actually, you'd need to animate it, humiliate it, then unanimate it, which is probably impossible
06:54:03 <zzo38> Are there any Magic: the Gathering puzzles involving games of more than two players? If so, are there any that require conceding in order to solve the puzzle?
06:55:33 <b_jonas> it's not hard to set up a situation where conceding will make your team win, but I don't know if there's a good puzzle made from this
06:55:58 <zzo38> I actually have a few ideas relating to such things.
06:58:03 <b_jonas> "What happens if an aura has living weapon ability?" -- dunno, but check the set faq and rulings and stuff for the sets in the Theros block, iirc think that was the block where it was first possible to get equipment auras
06:59:03 <b_jonas> all I remember is that it could somehow happen to get aura equipment and that they're attached to only one object that both equipment-related and aura-related abilities refer to
06:59:47 <b_jonas> I don't quite remember how it could happen though
07:04:51 <b_jonas> hmm, can't find that reference to aura equipment
07:13:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: that situation I described with conceding in multiplayer to have your team win the game might not work:
07:13:24 <b_jonas> "810.8b If a player concedes, his or her team leaves the game immediately. That team loses the game."
07:17:28 <b_jonas> however, you could still try to concede to influence which of your opponents win
07:19:20 <b_jonas> but that's trivial and doesn't need any rules shenenigans
07:21:17 <zzo38> I was thinking a game following rule 808, not 810.
07:21:57 <zzo38> Therefore, that rule won't apply.
07:37:07 <zzo38> Is 810 the most common team game? Well, I prefer 808.
07:48:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, now I'm no longer sure getting a non-creature aura without enchant is impossible in vanilla
07:48:33 <b_jonas> I'll have to investigate whether it's possible
07:49:34 <b_jonas> also, as for rules questions, I'd recommend against efnet #mtgrules for these kinds of crazy theoretical rules questions. they're a fine channel for ordinary rules questions, about situations that can reasonably come up in games, but not really for these kinds of esoteric rules situations.
07:53:44 <b_jonas> Is it possible to set up a combo with Time Machine that lets you win all future games with the same opponent unless he pulls off a turn zero win?
07:57:52 <b_jonas> Hmm no, it isn't. The opponent could concede very early next game to break the loop.
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08:59:39 <Sgeo> STM. Totally a stimulant drink drunk by neurons. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3105
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09:22:31 <oren> my short term memory is literally a stimulant drink, especially at exam time
09:33:56 <elliott> @tell Vorpal http://www.rutschle.net/tech/sslh.shtml
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09:48:44 <b_jonas> In windows 7, if I am moving a windows by dragging its title bar, and a new window is mapped to the desktop, that sometimes aborts the window move, but not always. What decides whether it aborts that?
09:49:16 <Jafet> Grabbing focus, perhaps
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09:49:59 <b_jonas> Jafet: ah yes, that's possible
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10:12:40 <oerjan> girl genius, WHY AREN'T YOU UPDATING
10:33:20 <int-e> oerjan: they're out of ideas for paper dolls?
10:34:40 <oerjan> that seems unlikely since these dolls are based on an already existing side story
10:35:30 <int-e> Yes, I did take that into account. I was trying to come up with a worst case scenario.
10:37:00 <oerjan> they still need to get through gil, tarvek and possibly the jägers
10:37:40 <oerjan> ...no, _certainly_ the jägers.
10:37:49 <int-e> maybe they needed to remind their kids of who their parents are
10:38:04 <oerjan> ah yes. i remember that.
10:38:08 <int-e> (there was this "who are you people" gag a while back..)
10:39:05 <int-e> 'course you do. you tend to remember most of GG better than I :P
10:40:28 <Taneb> I kind of want to do a Girl Genius cosplay
10:40:35 <Taneb> The issue is, how to make it recognizable?
10:40:43 <oerjan> i just reread most of the cinderella story, although that was because it was accidentally linked from an old forum comment in the yafgc forum (it turned out the story had a shoutout to them) that got bumped up.
10:40:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gamemanj * New user account
10:41:02 <Taneb> I don't really have the figure to cosplay Agatha. The only thing I can think of is Gil in his Schmott Guy hat
10:41:39 <oerjan> Taneb: i recall seeing some cosplay of maxim on their blog (also that via an ancient link)
10:41:55 <oerjan> it was the cosplayer's blog, i think
10:42:47 <oerjan> also the cosplayer was a girl
10:43:11 <oerjan> maxim _is_ canonically a bishounen jäger
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10:44:14 * oerjan tries to remember what Taneb looks like again
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10:45:16 <oerjan> apparently there's a guy called Raif Taneb
10:45:21 <Taneb> oerjan, I am just under six foot, skinny, brown hair, not short but by no means long, very noticeable eyebrows
10:45:49 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't really have the ability to connect looks and written desciptions
10:47:20 <oerjan> _something_ tells me this guy isn't you https://www.youtube.com/user/nathanvdoorn :P
10:47:49 <oerjan> (trying to find your esoprogramming video, your name/nick doesn't seem like the best search word)
10:49:10 <oerjan> why does "esolang" give all these russian hits
10:49:11 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bekftEG3j4
10:49:30 <Taneb> Heh, I forgot about that
10:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41601&oldid=40700 * Gamemanj * (+251) /* Announcements */
10:51:43 <oerjan> hm i found that too but with a different id
10:52:35 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it was uploaded twice
10:52:55 <Taneb> First to the person who filmed it's account, then copied to HackSoc's
10:55:40 <int-e> oerjan: Zeetha, too...
10:56:56 <oerjan> int-e: hm she wasn't in the part of the story i read
10:57:25 <oerjan> oh wait she was the godmother wasn't she
10:58:14 <int-e> though maybe they'll skip her; she had only that one outfit, I'm afraid
10:58:15 <oerjan> i started at the point where the yafgc shoutout was, which was after that
10:59:57 <oerjan> Taneb: i was thinking about moloch von zinzer but then you need more beard
11:00:05 <Taneb> oerjan, I can do more beard
11:10:13 <int-e> oerjan: interesting, I had missed the fact that the science fair was another concentration of shoutouts. (I was aware of the one when Agatha enters Mechanicsburg)
11:11:12 <oerjan> don't worry, i probably miss most shoutouts in general :P
11:12:09 <oerjan> occasionally i notice some, or notice something which just has to be a shoutout but i don't know to what
11:12:23 <int-e> sure. it just means that I didn't read the texts carefully that time (it was just a side story after all...)
11:13:36 <oerjan> did you know (of course not) that when i first saw the 3 jägers, i thought they were shoutouts to elfquest characters?
11:14:47 <int-e> oerjan: did you find http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ShoutOut/GirlGenius ?
11:14:50 <oerjan> i thought maxim looked vaguely like rayek, ognian vaguely like cutter and dimo vaguely like a troll
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11:25:35 <int-e> oh wow, the companion cube is hard to recognize...
11:26:03 <int-e> ( http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20141024 )
11:26:03 <idris-bot> (input):1:5: error: expected: "!!",
11:26:21 <int-e> idris-bot: I forgive you
11:28:05 <oerjan> sometimes i regret suggesting the ( prefix
11:28:29 <oerjan> but bots _shouldn't_ give multiline responses to unknown commands, anyway.
11:28:51 <int-e> > let f x = x x in x x x x x
11:28:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr
11:29:02 <oerjan> that's not an unknown command
11:29:05 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 ~ t1 -> t
11:29:05 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include u :: t1 -> t (bound at <interactive>:1:3)
11:29:24 <oerjan> vanila: there's already a )
11:29:30 <int-e> (idris-bot doesn't trigger so easily)
11:29:58 <int-e> (but I tend to put spaces around URLs to help copy&pasting.)
11:30:06 <oerjan> vanila: well the bot isn't actually _here_ any more.
11:30:27 <oerjan> vanila: the _reason_ i suggested ( was to balance out that ) in fungot's prefix list
11:30:27 <fungot> oerjan: this is just what makes sense
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11:30:38 <int-e> oerjan: I think it's fine.
11:31:01 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘T.for’ (imported from Data.Traversable)Not in scope: ‘wfø...
11:31:03 -!- Frooxius has joined.
11:31:17 <oerjan> ok i guess lambdabot isn't entirely innocent.
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11:31:36 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use TemplateHaskell
11:32:36 <Jafet> > text $ replicate 10 '\n'
11:33:15 <Jafet> > text $ concat $ replicate 10 "Terminated\n"
11:33:31 <oerjan> > text $ replicate 10 '\n'
11:34:15 <oerjan> it strips final newlines, and only then decides whether there's no output
11:34:58 <int-e> > text $ replicate 1024 '\n' ++ "a"
11:35:04 <int-e> > text $ replicate 1023 '\n' ++ "a"
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11:36:15 <J_Arcane> I think I need to learn more Haskell.
11:36:19 <int-e> well, not the 1024 thing anyway.
11:36:39 <oerjan> so, step 1: strip newlines 2: decide whether it's empty so print Terminated. 3: strip whitespace 4: decide whether it's empty so print nothing
11:36:56 <HackEgo> [U+00C2 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX]
11:37:07 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘text’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ)
11:37:56 <int-e> I bet it's a feature ;-)
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12:14:39 <oren> according to my analysis, the best type of pokemon is fairy/steel
12:14:55 <oren> the worst is ice/rock
12:14:59 <ais523> both of which are in fact widly used in various metagame
12:15:11 <ais523> and yes, ice/rock is absolutely terrible except as a glass cannon setup
12:15:18 <ais523> it's not too bad wrt coverage, but it's somewhat redundant
12:15:58 <zzo38> I think I saw somewhere what is the worst single type in Pokemon Red they calculated by computer, the result is rocks.
12:16:14 <oren> basically i wrote a program to evaluate the type combos according to how many types are good against them
12:16:15 <J_Arcane> ais523: yes, but what purpose in existing if you fail to provide function?
12:16:20 <oerjan> if that didn't help we'll just have to kill you instea
12:16:44 <ais523> J_Arcane: well if you don't know what your purpose is, you can make it your purpose to find out
12:17:18 <ais523> oren: it strikes me as odd that someone would a) be the type of person to do that, and yet b) include fairy (even dark and steel are a bit weird)
12:18:10 <vanila> I use ghost type in pokemon emerand
12:18:11 <oren> well everyone knows in the old games only psychic and dragon were worth fielding
12:18:23 <ais523> vanila: your ???? is lacking context, it would describe pretty much everything that happens in this channel
12:18:33 <J_Arcane> I tried to beat platinum with an all ghost team.
12:18:42 <ais523> the perfect team for Pokémon Red/Blue was solved quite a while ago
12:18:46 <J_Arcane> platinum was wicked fucking hard.
12:18:52 <ais523> unfortunately I can't remember all of it offhand
12:19:08 <ais523> Tauros, Chansey, Exeggcutor, um…
12:19:18 <ais523> either Rhydon or Golem, they're so close it makes no real difference
12:19:30 <ais523> (because you absolutely have to have a zapdos counter or you just lose)
12:19:36 <oren> everyone i knew had 3 Alakazam, Mewtwo, Dragonite, Articuno
12:19:44 <oren> or womething like that
12:19:54 <ais523> oh, this is normally assuming that mewtwo is banned and you can't use duplicates
12:20:06 <ais523> otherwise, the best team is probably either 6 mewtwo or 6 tauros, they're cloes
12:20:46 <oren> why not duplicates?
12:21:00 <oren> duplicates of non-legendray are easy toget
12:21:04 <ais523> it's just a commonly enforced rule, partly because so many people assume it's a rule
12:21:12 <ais523> and even 1 tauros is pretty hard to get, really, in RB
12:22:20 <ais523> so the assumption is "if you can get anything you want…"
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12:23:47 <oren> When dark came, Alakazam was no longer a evil killing machine, i was sad...
12:24:09 <ais523> I think Alakazam might also be on the perfect team
12:24:28 <ais523> apparently, mostly as the Pokémon that the opponent puts to sleep
12:24:37 <ais523> (another commonly enforced rule is that you can't put more than one opposing Pokémon to sleep)
12:26:09 <ais523> but Alakazam has plenty of counters even in RB
12:26:21 <ais523> e.g. it can't do anything to Chansey, who will paralyse it
12:26:27 <ais523> and then it'll die to everything
12:26:33 <oren> Hmm... that is pretty far from the way i played it in primary school... Alakazam was countered by Dargonite usually
12:27:01 <ais523> well we've had well over 10 years to solve the game
12:28:11 <oren> that's true. the days of mewtwo -> dragonite -> articuno -> charizard are over
12:28:21 <ais523> articuno is actually pretty bad
12:28:29 <oren> but kills dragonite
12:28:43 <ais523> or, hmm, no, it's not that bad
12:28:46 <ais523> misread the guide I'm using
12:29:01 <oren> and there aren't that many ice pokemon in RBY anyway
12:29:39 <vanila> the reprogrammed pokemon
12:29:47 <ais523> vanila: did you see the credits for that run?
12:30:04 <vanila> im not sure, i was talking about the one yesterday
12:30:17 <ais523> I'm partly responsible for it, is the point I was getting at
12:30:28 <vanila> that was really stunning
12:30:31 <ais523> so while everyone else was really happy watching it
12:30:41 <ais523> I was really nervous, hoping everything would work
12:30:54 <ais523> not everything did work, but enough did that we were able to pull off something spectacular anyway
12:31:19 <b_jonas> ais523: is this the tasbot?
12:31:28 <vanila> that would be very nerve-wracking
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12:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41602&oldid=41447 * TomPN * (-98) /* Syntax */
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12:31:57 <ais523> oren: so looking this up, articuno loses to starmie, which is the most common reason it isn't used much
12:32:08 <oren> I should redo my program to take into acount typical stats of a type combo
12:32:48 <vanila> ais523, how do you get involved in something like that?
12:33:03 <oren> articuno also loses to Mewtwo though... some people used lapras instead
12:33:39 <ais523> vanila: well dwangoAC organizes the TAS representation at AGDQ, and I've been working with him on another project for over a year now
12:34:10 <b_jonas> ais523: on a different note, after what zzo38 said, I'm now wondering about something in M:tG:
12:34:51 <b_jonas> Namely whether it's possible to get a situation where you have a non-creature aura without an "enchant" ability in play at a point when the game tries to determine what it can be legally enchanted to.
12:35:31 <b_jonas> The rules don't seem quite clear what would happen if that occurred, but I don't know if it's possible in first place.
12:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41603&oldid=41448 * TomPN * (-98) /* Loops */
12:36:56 <ais523> I think all the existing "lose all abilities" effects only apply to creatures, but you might be able to find one with an until-end-of-turn duration
12:37:11 <ais523> so I think it's doable
12:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41604&oldid=41449 * TomPN * (-1) /* Quantum entanglement */
12:38:51 <J_Arcane> Wow. FPComplete is actually really cool.
12:41:05 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, Turn! nice, I didn't think of that
12:41:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41605&oldid=41428 * TomPN * (-56)
12:43:34 <int-e> b_jonas: oh "copy enchantment" is an interesting card, it's an enchantment without target (but a triggered ability.) In fact that card tickles the rules about targets in interesting ways - see the first ruling at http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83807
12:43:37 <b_jonas> ok, so how does that work? I animate the aura, cast Turn at it, then unanimate it, and its abilities remain lost until end of turn.
12:44:40 <b_jonas> and that strange state lasts long enough that I can even cast spells or try to reattach it with Simic Guildmage's ability
12:46:49 <int-e> b_jonas: Uhm, "An Aura that's also a creature can't enchant anything. If this occurs somehow, the Aura becomes unattached, then is put into its owner's graveyard." (as a state-based effect)
12:47:22 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but the question is what objects an aura without "enchant" can legally enchant,
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12:48:10 <b_jonas> int-e: the rules basically say that the "enchant" ability determines what an aura can legally attach to, with the exception that if the aura is a creature it can't be attached to anything, and that an aura can never be attached to itself legally
12:48:11 <int-e> The rules say that enchantments work on objects and players.
12:48:23 <int-e> and Enchant restricts that set.
12:48:24 <b_jonas> yes, object and player sorry
12:48:26 <ais523> you'd have to make it into a nonenchantment creature first
12:48:32 <ais523> then undo the type changing
12:48:42 <ais523> being an enchantment would be fine
12:48:53 <ais523> so maybe it isn't possible
12:49:24 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm... you have to make it non-aura temporarily? that might be easiest by rewriting it with a copy
12:49:39 <b_jonas> there might be an easier way:
12:49:55 <ais523> we don't have a "target permanent becomes a copy of another target permanent until end of combat", though (or some duration that's shorter than a turn)
12:50:02 <ais523> or "enchanted permanent is a copy of target permanent"
12:50:05 <b_jonas> just manifest an aura, then Turn it, then use the special action from manifest to turn it up so it becomes an auura
12:50:21 <ais523> b_jonas: doesn't work, manifest special action only works on creatures
12:50:31 <ais523> cards that are creatures on the front, that is
12:50:45 <ais523> oh, don't use the special ability
12:51:03 <ais523> that works on everything that's a creature on the back (i.e. everything), and not an instant or sorcery on the front
12:51:08 <b_jonas> can you overwrite a non-creature artifact enchantment with a copy somehow?
12:51:50 <b_jonas> well, I hope it's a special action like morph's
12:51:50 <oren> holy crap, mewtwo still has monstrous stats
12:51:56 <b_jonas> we won't know for sure until the setfaq comes out
12:52:45 <ais523> it is a special action, it says so in the mechanics preview article
12:52:51 <ais523> oren: have you seen mewtwoite x / mewtwoite y?
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12:53:54 <b_jonas> not only does the new mtg homepage no longer has an obvious link to a list of all set faqs; but also even though the pages of earlier sets link to their set FAQs, http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/card-set-archive/khans-of-tarkir doesn't link to a set faq.
12:54:15 <b_jonas> where's the Khans of Tarkir set FAQ, I hope they haven't discontinued set FAQs
12:54:30 <b_jonas> oh, it does link to the faq, just on a differnet place
12:55:11 <b_jonas> I'll have to download that
12:58:26 <oren> Also, why the hell isn't there a game in Orange Islands?
13:00:21 <b_jonas> ais523: there's another way, without face down permanents. animate a Mizzium Transreqliquat, activate its ability to copy an artifact aura, and as a reaction, cast Turn to the Transreliquat.
13:00:59 <b_jonas> but manifest, Turn, Break open is easier
13:01:06 <ais523> oh, the copy effect causes it to stop being a creature
13:01:27 <b_jonas> ais523: nah, you can just make it no longer be a creature at instant speed
13:01:35 <b_jonas> by destroying Animate Artifact
13:01:46 <b_jonas> you can animate and unanimate artifacts any time you like
13:02:00 <b_jonas> ok, not quite, but any time you can cast spells
13:02:33 <b_jonas> I can't load the Khans of Tarkir set faq
13:02:47 <b_jonas> guess I'll have to try again in the evening, the wizards website sucks
13:04:38 <b_jonas> sorry if I interrupted the pokemon conversation
13:04:50 <oren> nah this is more interesting
13:05:17 <oerjan> how dare you interrupt their off-topic conversation with another one
13:05:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: actually the mtg one is somewhat on-topic because it's about obfu-uses of M:tG, not normal uses
13:05:54 <ais523> ew can have multiple conversations at once
13:06:06 <b_jonas> I don't know if it counts as more on-topic than the pokemon one though
13:06:06 <ais523> oerjan: I'd claim http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow is ontopic
13:06:22 <ais523> even though writing that page required me to know about various obscure M:tG cards
13:07:41 <oren> someone should invent a tabletop game so complex it is possible to make the referees have to solve the halting problem
13:07:57 <b_jonas> oren: M:tG is already like that
13:08:05 <b_jonas> oren: because of its rules about infinite loops
13:08:14 <b_jonas> those rules, sadly, are also underspecified
13:08:40 <oren> oh shit i forgot about those... so they have to know whther the loop is infinite or not
13:08:46 <b_jonas> but you can imagine specifying them completely in an ideal world, but they still have to require to solve the halting problem
13:09:09 <b_jonas> oren: yes, and as the rest of M:tG is turing complete, those rules make the judges require to solve the halting problem in theory
13:09:32 <b_jonas> in practice, you might not be able to set up an interesting enoguh situation without running out of time or some other implementation limit first
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13:09:56 <b_jonas> in any case you may need a co-operating opponent
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13:10:11 <ais523> the only remaining thing to do is to somehow set it up in a tournament
13:10:38 <oren> and then grin and say "Problem, ref?"
13:10:42 <b_jonas> ais523: if you try that, they _might_ penalize you with an unsportsmanlike conduct or something
13:10:46 <ais523> you might be able to do it in Vintage; Slaver Control is a real deck there, and one of its win conditions involves taking control of all your opponent's turns
13:11:13 <b_jonas> ais523: it's easier to get a match with a co-operating opponent
13:11:16 <ais523> so all you'd need to do in your own deck is one copy of Research//Development, plus a sideboard containing cards necessary to set the combo up
13:11:20 <ais523> b_jonas: not under sanctioned conditions
13:11:32 <ais523> an alternative would be to set it up on Magic Online, get both players to pass the turn
13:11:55 <ais523> b_jonas: because there's a rule against allowing anything other than normal Magic play to determine the winner of a game
13:11:59 <b_jonas> ais523: um, I think Magic Online has different rules for infinite loops
13:12:18 <ais523> yes, it forces you to play all the turns out manually, and uses chess clocks to penalise you if you take too long
13:12:27 <ais523> however, there's a "skip responses until end of turn" button
13:12:36 <ais523> and the StackFlow construction is a chain of triggered abilities that trigger each other
13:12:41 <ais523> with no player interaction involved, no choices either
13:13:01 <ais523> I even made sure to require that if two abilities triggered simultaneously, it was from different players
13:13:34 <b_jonas> ais523: can it be set up with only two players?
13:13:49 <ais523> also made sure of that
13:14:35 <ais523> unfortunately it requires setting up a few hundred creature and enchantment tokens and using various cards to rewrite their rules texts
13:18:34 <b_jonas> what's the time limit for an entire mtgo game?
13:18:36 <ais523> which might be hard to do within the mtgo time limit, even though the cards are probably not too hard to get hold of
13:18:39 <ais523> like 50 minutes per player
13:18:40 <b_jonas> is it about a week? or much less?
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13:19:13 <b_jonas> 50 minutes per player? hmm
13:19:35 <b_jonas> is there a way to get more time than that somehow?
13:19:42 <ais523> I don't know, I don't play mtgo
13:28:36 <int-e> "magic the gathering online exchange"
13:29:24 <ais523> apparently it was never actually used for mtg, though
13:34:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Crewjony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41606&oldid=41597 * Crewjony * (+36)
13:36:41 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow#Syntax - special keywords followed by a colon, and then entry lines starting with an asterisk? that's not markdown, that's emacs-info based.
13:38:09 <b_jonas> well, not quite, because the emacs-info format also needs an asterisk heading for the special keyword commands.
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14:09:32 <J_Arcane> https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
14:17:44 <ais523> just that URL is mindblowing
14:17:47 <ais523> I haven't dared to actually click it
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14:26:15 <FireFly> I enjoyed https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript more
14:30:01 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
14:30:05 <ais523> is that what you were looking for?
14:30:33 <Taneb> ais523, I was looking for the list that fungot ignores (is there such a list?)
14:30:34 <fungot> Taneb: at installs it automagically on any box. so far i've not found that with the usual colors.
14:30:58 <ais523> Taneb: you'd have to ask fizzie about that
14:35:26 <b_jonas> are there huffman-based compressed formats where the bits that you have to be conditional on for decoding because they determine the lengths are in separate streams from the bits that you don't have to be conditional on?
14:36:44 <b_jonas> I wonder if perhaps such a format could be faster to decode than a traditional huffman-based format like deflate/zip/png or jpeg
14:37:52 <mroman> pt sucks for font sizes
14:39:13 <b_jonas> something like this might already exist of course
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15:21:08 <mroman> although vh sucks for huge monitors
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15:28:09 <mroman> is there no relative to 1% of the viewport IN CENTIMETERS
15:28:44 <ais523> mroman: does calc() do what you want?
15:28:58 <ais523> I was considering writing a generator to work out the perfect series of nested divs to do that sort of calculation
15:29:05 <ais523> then the browser manufacturers added it to CSS isntead
15:32:00 <mroman> ais523: I'm trying to figure out a way to calculate the font-size I need to make it readable on small screens (smartphones) as well as screens such as 24" TFTs
15:32:20 <ais523> I'm not sure there's an easy way to do that
15:32:27 <mroman> you can do stuff like 2vw
15:32:32 <mroman> which is 2% of the viewport width
15:32:41 <mroman> which is still too small on smartphones
15:32:53 <mroman> but a little bit too big for 24" TFTs with HD resolution
15:33:05 <b_jonas> mroman: just set it to the default font size?
15:34:10 <mroman> the default font-size on android is apparentely ridiciously small
15:34:10 <b_jonas> oh! they added "rem", font size of the root element
15:34:26 <b_jonas> I wnated that, but all css used to have was the font size of the parent element
15:34:54 <mroman> there's <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1">
15:35:26 <ais523> note that most weird-screen-sized browsers are good at zooming
15:35:48 <mroman> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1"> works like a charm.
15:37:16 <b_jonas> they have a calc(...) value which lets you put an expression using add, subtract, multiply, division, but no min or max operators? that's crazy
15:39:00 <FireFly> there's separate min-width and max-width properties I think
15:40:13 <b_jonas> FireFly: sure, but calc is for more complicated expressions
15:40:29 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc-notation
15:40:37 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/new/page.html
15:40:55 <mroman> now it looks decent in my 24" TFT and on my smartphone
15:41:41 <mroman> and yes, I'm a fan of simple designs with not too much stuff around
15:42:51 <Solace|skool> Is it supposed to have a green shading behind it
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15:48:28 <mroman> Solace|skool: with background-color?
15:53:59 <mroman> Alright. I'm quite happy with that now.
15:54:09 <mroman> Now I have the design. Now I need some ideas for content.
15:54:33 <mroman> (It may be supposed to replace http://mroman.ch/)
15:56:50 <mroman> I've got my own homepage at it even says "Hi".
15:57:01 <mroman> I've got my own homepage and it even says "Hi".
16:00:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tadeboro * New user account
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16:19:27 <HackEgo> [U+25AF WHITE VERTICAL RECTANGLE]
16:21:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eodermdrome]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41607&oldid=35375 * Tadeboro * (+79) Change implementation section: add first implementation.
16:22:39 <Jafet> U+25AF TOWER OF IMPERIALISM
16:26:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eodermdrome]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41608&oldid=41607 * Ais523 * (+6) fix cats; copyedit
16:28:16 <nortti> because it is now implemented?
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16:40:36 <Jafet> That guy must have a really slow computer, as my brute force interpreter does hundreds of substitutions per second
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16:51:25 <Jafet> ais523: also, 2 out of 2 extant interpreters don't implement the punctuated-whitespace syntax hth
16:51:48 <ais523> oh no, is the language going to get Underloaded again?
16:53:11 <Jafet> What is Underloading
16:55:34 <ais523> where a language has some minor syntactical restriction that interpreter after interpreter forgets to implement
16:55:46 <ais523> until eventually it gets removed from the definition of the language due to weight of interpreter opinion
16:57:26 <Jafet> I'm pretty sure that's older than underload
16:58:43 <ais523> underload may be the most prominent case though?
17:00:31 <Jafet> C++ template export......
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17:04:18 <ais523> C++ isn't an esolang :-(
17:04:31 <ais523> also, C++ has so many relevant features that saying "C++ed" would be ambiguous
17:04:56 <Jafet> That's true; most esolangs aren't
17:05:01 <Jafet> Perhaps they should be
17:05:29 <ais523> well The Project That Shall Not Be Abbreviated As ABCDEF was a miserable failure
17:06:51 <Taneb> ais523, I much prefer ABCDEF... G
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17:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> where a language has some minor syntactical restriction that interpreter after interpreter forgets to implement
17:12:59 <ais523> most recently, any-punctuation-cancels-whitespace in Eodermdrome
17:13:04 <ais523> previously, " in Underload
17:14:33 <Taneb> ais523, also [] in Underload?
17:15:17 <b_jonas> to get to the other side? no wait. for future use?
17:15:23 <ais523> originally, for Overload compatibility, then I realised reserved characters would make writing interps in underpowered languages easier
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17:28:43 <ais523> is 42 like a really really old version of 2014?
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17:34:04 <ais523> <www.tryfsharp.org> Welcome to Try F#! Your system does not support the execution of F# code in the browser.
17:34:11 <ais523> I tried Firefox and Chromium
17:34:42 <ais523> let me try with user agent set to IE11
17:34:46 <J_Arcane> You need the Silverlight plugin.
17:34:56 <J_Arcane> IT doesn't tell you this, for some reason.
17:35:12 <ais523> that could be very awkward, seeing as silverlight's been discontinued
17:35:13 <J_Arcane> I had a problem in Chrome and Opera both just loading the bar and then nothing happening.
17:35:31 <ais523> all I want to do is typecheck one term
17:35:43 <ais523> (a term that has previously been mentioned in #esoteric)
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17:37:35 <callforjudgement> I was busy using a search engine to determine the appropriate TLD
17:37:46 <J_Arcane> No REPL or fancy Intellisense completion, but it does in a pinch.
17:38:44 <callforjudgement> let's hope it prints the type of a term if I just enter it directly
17:39:39 <Jafet> The sure way to get its type is to make a typo
17:41:42 <callforjudgement> "error FS0002: This function takes too many arguments, or is used in a context where a function is not expected"
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17:44:04 <J_Arcane> What's frustrating me mroe is that MS apparently doesn't believe that F# should be used to actually write an application.
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17:45:29 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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17:47:59 <ais523> the trick was to add an int that was specifically typecast to int to the function
17:49:50 <J_Arcane> It's unfortunate, and hopefully something that the open source team can start expanding on. As an MS project, F# is basically expected to be a library language for writing algorithms. Their answer to the state problem is 'fuck it, write that part in C#' mostly.
17:50:27 <J_Arcane> Which is a bummer, and also useless, because the whole reason I wanted to learn F# was to be able to make Windows apps in a functional language.
17:54:14 <ais523> ugh, adding newlines to this actually changes the meaning of the code
17:54:46 <ais523> is there a "continue onto next line" operator?
17:55:00 * ais523 tries backslash-newline
17:55:08 <J_Arcane> let in particular is whitespace sensitive: let = on single line is an assignment, let = followed by newline and indent is a function.
17:56:08 <ais523> (fun m -> fun n -> (fun f -> f(m)(f(n)(fun z -> z)))(fun x -> (fun y -> y))) + (4:int)
17:56:38 <ais523> this is intended for my PhD thesis as an illustration that most practical type algorithms don't do rank-2 type inference
17:57:01 <shachaf> whoa, is your PhD thesis about rank-2 type inference?
17:57:01 <ais523> and so I want to try it on a range of practical type inference algorithms to demonstrate that they give it the "wrong" type
17:57:17 <ais523> it's about contraction
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17:57:27 <ais523> i.e. "the act of using the same lambda binding more than once"
17:57:28 <shachaf> People say that rank-2 types are inferrable but I'm not really sure what they mean.
17:58:13 <ais523> they mean that an algorithm exists which, given a program, will work out whether it is possible to place rank-2 type annotations at appropriate points in the program so that that program types correctly
17:58:23 <ais523> (and also tell you where to put them)
17:58:34 <shachaf> There's no "most general type", though, right?
17:58:49 <shachaf> It's the same issue as inferring existentials, I guess (or a very similar one).
17:58:57 <ais523> inferring existentials also comes up :-)
17:59:02 <shachaf> You can give (\x -> x x) a rank-2 type but I don't know that you want to.
17:59:19 <J_Arcane> ais523: http://pastebin.com/X21YdG0q
17:59:22 <ais523> but yes, there isn't a requirement for the type inference algo to be compositional
17:59:41 <ais523> J_Arcane: that's exactly what I get from ideone
17:59:45 <ais523> my current issue is more mundane
17:59:58 <ais523> the function, as written, is sufficiently long that at the font size I'm forced to use
18:00:01 <ais523> it doesn't fit on the page
18:00:12 <shachaf> "you can make it type-check with *some* type" doesn't seem all that useful.
18:00:39 <shachaf> Maybe I'll read your thesis when it comes out.
18:00:56 <ais523> shachaf: it's useful in that you can just write your whole program
18:01:04 <ais523> and the types will sort themselves out for you
18:01:15 <ais523> actually I'm not sure if rank-2 inference is actually enough in this case, it's an open problem
18:01:55 <ais523> rank-2 inference is sufficient to make the premises of my existing proof that something is badly broken not hold
18:02:06 <ais523> mostly I've been getting around the problem with intersection typing though
18:02:31 <shachaf> It seems that for the types to sort themselves out for you, you need to infer the right rank-2 types. But maybe I'm not thinking that through.
18:02:46 <ais523> shachaf: that only happens if you run inference on a bit of the program at the time
18:02:56 <ais523> as in, it infers the right type for your program, but it needs information on what the program is to do that
18:03:16 <ais523> (this is the general definition of a non-compositional algorithm, incidentally)
18:03:22 <ais523> at least, I think it's non-compositional
18:03:39 <shachaf> It seems to me that the whole point of types is to be compositional.
18:03:55 <ais523> well, the way I think about it, is there's two layers
18:03:57 <shachaf> But maybe they have other points too.
18:04:01 <J_Arcane> ais523: It seems you can safely newline after the -> if you follow that with a tab (4 spaces).
18:04:13 <J_Arcane> At least it doesn't complain in VS2013.
18:04:28 <ais523> your actual syntax is compositional, the process of working out what to put in the syntax doesn't have to be
18:05:27 <J_Arcane> error FS0030: Value restriction. The value 'it' has been inferred to have generic type
18:05:30 <J_Arcane> Either make the arguments to 'it' explicit or, if you do not intend for it to be generic, add a type annotation.
18:05:43 <shachaf> ais523: Are existentials also inferrable in the same context?
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18:06:07 <shachaf> I vaguely remember talking with dolio or someone about this but I don't remember the details of the conversation.
18:06:18 <ais523> shachaf: in my special context, yes, but it's a very unusual situation
18:06:46 <ais523> actually what I did was to put enough restrictions on the language that existentials and universals were equivalent, in the one special case where I needed existentials
18:06:54 <ais523> which clearly doesn't work in general
18:09:18 <shachaf> Is there anything that does whole-program inference?
18:11:03 <ais523> it seems like a reasonable thing to do when compositional inference doesn't work
18:11:12 <ais523> my research compiler does whole-program inference of SCC
18:11:27 <ais523> I don't know of a compositional algo for that, there might be one though
18:11:32 <shachaf> Right, but is there anything you know that does it?
18:12:26 <shachaf> Strongly connected components?
18:16:14 <ais523> syntactic control of concurrency
18:16:31 <ais523> hmm, trying to get clojure to give me a useful type error is harder, so far I haven't figured out whether it's statically or dynamically typed
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18:18:40 <ais523> so it doesn't even do type inference
18:20:12 <Gregor> Statically typed Lisp would be an anomaly.
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18:20:31 <ais523> Gregor: well I tried to work out statically typed Underload once
18:20:43 <ais523> I think it needs at least rank 2 types to work, though, probably more
18:20:47 <Gregor> I said an anomaly, not an impossibility.
18:21:17 <Gregor> Also, all languages are statically typed if you define "type" to be a sufficiently-useless concept :)
18:21:51 <Gregor> There is one type. That type is called 'thing'. All values are of type 'thing'. This is statically guaranteed.
18:22:29 <ais523> Gregor: I actually define untyped lambda calculus like that in my thesis (only I called the type 'func')
18:23:30 <ais523> oh, and apparently Scala doesn't do type inference
18:23:42 <ais523> if you want a function, you have to write the types on manually
18:24:31 <ais523> hmm, based on my research so far, it seems like Haskell and OCaml really are the only really viable languages for highly functional programming atm
18:25:09 <shachaf> ais523: That's pretty standard, isn't it?
18:25:09 <coppro> Scala is considered viable by many
18:25:12 <ais523> coppro: I actually have a requirement that the language isn't dependently-typed
18:25:23 <coppro> depends what you mean by "highly functional" though
18:25:29 <ais523> coppro: not doing type inference at all is something of a dealbreaker for me
18:25:31 <shachaf> The whole T ~ T -> T CCC thing
18:25:44 <Taneb> What was that joke CS journal? It had SHA jokes in it among other more interesting things
18:26:24 <coppro> ais523: and you're requiring statically typed as well?
18:26:39 <ais523> here. have a term I have actualy used for a serious purpose: λ q.(λ g.g(λ x.g(qx)))(λ b.(λ k.((k(λ u.u))(λ l.((kb)(λ m.(l(m( skip ))))))))(λ v.λ w.wv))
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18:26:40 <coppro> because I don't agree that you can't do "highly functional" code in a dynamically-typed language
18:27:18 <ais523> coppro: well the very general field of my research is "get a compiler's to catch «error» at compiletime"
18:27:27 <ais523> dynamically-typed languages are very bad at that
18:28:25 <ais523> the error in question for my thesis is "write a program that potentially requires infinite amounts of memory to execute"
18:28:26 <coppro> Who picked \lvert and \rvert as macro names in tech
18:28:32 <coppro> writing absolute values is tedious
18:28:55 <ais523> i.e. I'm trying to statically enforce that programs use only finite amounts of memory
18:29:17 <ais523> (which in turn means that they can be statically compared, for reasons #esoteric should be well aware of)
18:30:07 <coppro> it feels like it's related in some way to corecursion. is it? or am I just imagining things?
18:30:08 <ais523> and the motivating reason for /that/ is so that they can be compiled to hardware in a way that uses static memory allocation
18:30:17 <ais523> bringing the memory to the program, rather than the other way round
18:30:22 <ais523> I'm not sure what corecursion is
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18:31:35 <ais523> J_Arcane: oh, I should probably cite you for help with the syntax
18:31:44 <ais523> do you have a name you can be cited under?
18:33:15 <coppro> ais523: recursion works by breaking down to base cases, corecursion works by building up from them
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18:33:36 <ais523> coppro: ah right, sort-of like forward chaining in Prolog
18:35:21 <ais523> #esoteric now has two citations in my thesis :-)
18:36:54 <J_Arcane> http://atreus.technomancy.us/firmware
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19:01:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Iexp]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41609 * GermanyBoy * (+4519) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Iexp |paradigms=[[:Category:Declarative paradigm|declarative]] |author=[[User:GermanyBoy]] |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |dimensions=one-dimensional |..."
19:02:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41610&oldid=40362 * GermanyBoy * (+68) iexp
19:02:55 <myname> wait, it's fine to cite irc channes?
19:03:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Iexp]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41611&oldid=41609 * GermanyBoy * (+24) output only
19:03:43 <zzo38> This IRC is logged, so it should help.
19:05:17 <myname> i have to do that, to!
19:06:23 <ais523> myname: was citing individual people within it
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19:18:04 <b_jonas> ais523: J_Arcane has mentioned ideone, but http://rextester.com/runcode also has F#. rextester generally seems to have a better interface, but here you might care more about what compiler or libraries it uses to compile rather than its web interface.
19:18:17 <ais523> I just used the first one that worked
19:19:03 <b_jonas> "are Microsoft's error messages really that bad?" -- yes, they are terrible, at least in their C++ compiler
19:22:17 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: I got so quickly used to F# errors being unintelligible that on one account while writing resume.fsx I actually completely missed a missing function argument because I was so used to that error being wrong that the idea it was actually telling me the problem never occured to me.
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19:28:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: I ais523 about M:tG and he figured quickly that even in vanilla you can get a state where there's a non-creature aura without an "enchant" ability
19:28:31 <b_jonas> (for long enough to matter)
19:29:37 <b_jonas> the easiest way is to manifest an aura, then cast Turn on it, then cast Break Open on it.
19:29:50 <b_jonas> there's also a way to do it with older sets only, but it's more complicated.
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19:31:26 <J_Arcane> -hmm. Pondering slumming it in some Javascript for a bit, and it strikes me there's an interesting philosophical dilemma in targeting JS for a port of my resume generator.
19:33:13 <J_Arcane> MY 'resume' is a simple script that generates itself from some text data files.
19:33:48 <J_Arcane> The current versions so far do so by outputting to Markdown, but that seems like a needless intermediary step with .js.
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20:23:10 <J_Arcane> Wheee. http://rextester.com/CLX22519
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20:30:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: What is the way with older cards?
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20:44:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: we found only a very complicated way, there's probably a simpler one. let me check the backscroll.
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20:45:36 <b_jonas> Animate a Mizzium Transreqliquat, activate its ability to copy an artifact aura, and as a reaction, cast Turn to the Transreliquat.
20:46:10 <b_jonas> That's really inefficient, it needs like ten different cards to pull it off.
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20:48:14 <b_jonas> You need a card to make an artifact aura, such as Mycosynth Lattice or Liquimetal Coating
20:48:44 <b_jonas> hmm, that's not _that_ bad, only like five cards besides basic lands
20:49:33 <scarf> b_jonas: that still uses Turn, which is quite recent (it went out last rotation)
20:50:37 <b_jonas> you have to Shatter the Animate Artifact before the Transreliquat's ability resolves
20:50:57 <b_jonas> scarf: oh... yeah, that makes sense, it's a fuse card
20:51:05 <b_jonas> is there a way to do it without Turn?
20:52:09 <b_jonas> you could use a Humble with Teferi, Mage of Z
20:52:55 <b_jonas> ok, so Turn doesn't even really help
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21:03:23 <b_jonas> that means the newest card in this is Mizzium Transreliquat, from Guildpact
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21:23:41 <zzo38> I asked in other IRC and got conflicting answers about what exactly is "the point the creature is declared as an attacker"; declaring an attacker doesn't seem to be a single point though.
21:23:50 <zzo38> For example: If I have Blood Pet, War Tax, Sightless Brawler, and Guardians of Akrasa, and then I activate War Tax, declare an attack with Blood Pet and Sightless Brawler, and pay for the cost imposed by War Tax by sacrificing Blood Pet, what happens?
21:24:49 <zzo38> Do *you* know??? Is this a mistake made by whoever wrote the rules?
21:25:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: uh, I'm not up for that now, sorry. scarf?
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21:25:56 <ais523> zzo38: it's the start of the declare attackers phase
21:27:24 <zzo38> Ah, OK, so as soon as 508 begins.
21:27:35 <zzo38> How do you learn these things?
21:28:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: ais reads way more rules and judge material than I'd ever done
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21:32:16 <shachaf> zzo38: It seems to me from the rules that you declare attackers in 508.1a, and then check all the conditions at once in 508.1c.
21:33:13 <shachaf> So you've declared two creatures as attacking, and then sacrificed one to pay a cost.
21:34:35 <zzo38> But 508.1c is for restrictions, not triggers. There are then requirements at 508.1d, and costs at 508.1g. It looks to me like you are in the process of declaring.
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21:36:04 <shachaf> Oh, 508.1g isn't part of 508.1c.
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22:10:25 <zzo38> Whether or not it is doesn't seem relevant to answer my question.
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22:48:09 <zzo38> From my variant planeswalkers rules it suggest to me a new kind of keyword ability called "planestrample", which actually can sometimes be used even if there are no planeswalker cards.
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23:04:26 <HackEgo> the_astrologer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:05:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: what would that ability do? trample extra combat damage over a planeswalker to its controller player?
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23:10:57 <AndoDaan> fungot, what is the most boring number?
23:10:57 <fungot> AndoDaan: why a waste?
23:11:38 <myname> AndoDaan: isn't being the most boring number kinda interesting?
23:12:14 <AndoDaan> heh. I think that's the proof that no number can be boring. Read somewhere.
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23:14:19 <zzo38> Although if a "planeswalkers are players" variant then it means: If this would deal damage (even if it isn't combat damage) to a player that would exceed his life total, the remaining damage is redirected to that player's controller. (Usually a player controls himself, so there is no effect.)
23:17:35 <zzo38> (The variant planeswalkers rule does what you said with combat damage, but also works if a player is being controlled due to Mindslaver or whatever.)
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23:24:31 <AndoDaan> And you're all back. That was exciting.
23:24:47 <oerjan> i think one is missing?
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23:26:32 <oerjan> AndoDaan: irssi tells me how many left (although it left out 3 names) and how many rejoined
23:26:37 <Taneb> oerjan, maybe nortii quit just after the netsplit
23:26:53 <oerjan> (although the latter got split up over 6 lines)
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23:33:54 <oerjan> <Taneb> ais523, I was looking for the list that fungot ignores (is there such a list?) <-- iirc the command is ^ignore but it only responds to fizzie, even when just querying the list
23:33:54 <oerjan> he did consider allowing the latter but that would obviously require rewriting fungot code...
23:33:54 <fungot> oerjan: then d has matured since i last used arj. with lynx that is:
23:33:54 <fungot> oerjan: so the hash function can, for instance, when the whim ( anger?) explodes, that has the confirmed rules of competition...
23:33:56 <oerjan> hm fizzie's server isn't responding to /whois
23:34:28 <oerjan> oh there, someone is lagged
23:35:05 <oerjan> probably fizzie and fungot then
23:35:05 <fungot> oerjan: are you respecting the ctl-v ctl-x ctl-c tradition? this is the
23:35:40 <oerjan> fungot: i use ctrl-c and ctrl-v, but rarely ctrl-x
23:35:40 <fungot> oerjan: non-recursive let has always seemed a little fnord up, ashanks!!
23:36:08 <Taneb> fungot, how will my exam tomorrow go?
23:36:08 <fungot> Taneb: http://tools.ietf.org/ rfc/ fnord and the heap is about to use scanf in c++ code, not the cd :p.
23:37:05 <oerjan> fungot: iirc Taneb is studying math so that seems somewhat irrelevant
23:37:15 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm doing maths and computer science
23:37:23 <Taneb> Tomorrow's exam is for vision and graphics, though
23:39:05 <Taneb> Heh, someone caused a botloop in another channel by having a webpage whose title made one bot evaluate a brainfuck program which printed the url of page, which another bot
23:39:09 <Taneb> printed the title of
23:40:04 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
23:40:14 <Taneb> He spent all day working on it
23:41:36 <oerjan> hm didn't there use to be a url title bot here
23:42:11 <oerjan> or maybe it was in #haskell way back when i was there
23:42:33 <Taneb> I think there is one in #haskell
23:44:05 <Taneb> I think tomorrow's exam is an exercise in making sure you actually go to the goddamn lectures in future
23:46:18 <oerjan> <ais523> note that most weird-screen-sized browsers are good at zooming <-- i have seen blogs which manage to make the width of the main text area _smaller_ when i zoom :(
23:47:00 <oerjan> (on my laptop with IE)
23:47:26 <myname> i wonder why the fuck some mobile sites actually forbid me to zoom
23:49:10 <Taneb> Oooh, space carving looks interesting
23:49:38 <FireFly> seam carving*? (or something unrelated?)
23:49:41 <Taneb> You know, if I could have been bothered with this module, I'd have really enjoyed it
23:49:58 <Taneb> FireFly, it's a way to construct a 3D model from some images
23:50:05 <FireFly> Oh, something unrelated then
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23:50:32 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm really annoyed at myself for not going to these lectures :(
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23:51:31 <oerjan> do any browsers have some concept of "this site is broken; allow me to overrule specific broken features of it?"
23:52:01 <Taneb> iirc Opera did? It's been a while since I've used it, though
23:56:47 <Taneb> (I remember for a time a few years ago- when I still used Windows- I decided that of course the best thing to do was to have ALL THE BROWSERS installed)
23:56:55 <Taneb> (I think I had Netscape on there)
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00:22:02 <Taneb> I must buy milk tomorrow...
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00:47:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41612 * Scoppini * (+3618) Created page with "'''XRF''' is a [[stack]]-based [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[User:Scoppini]] in 2015. ==Overview== XRF operates on a stack of nonnegative integers of arbit..."
00:47:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Scoppini]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41613 * Scoppini * (+30) Created page with "Hello there. I created [[XRF]]"
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00:52:20 <tswett> So I'm still pondering the question of whether or not there's a "standard arithmetically sound theory".
00:52:44 <tswett> I'd say it's "obvious" that Peano arithmetic is arithmetically sound. After all, all its axioms are true.
00:52:59 <tswett> And I'd definitely say it's "not obvious" that ZFC is arithmetically sound. After all, all its axioms are made up.
00:53:27 <yorick> tswett: are you pondering platonism?
00:53:47 <tswett> I don't know what I mean by "standard" here.
00:53:49 <yorick> people have been pondering that for a while
00:54:14 <tswett> What if you just take as an axiom every "obvious" first-order statement about the natural numbers?
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00:54:33 <tswett> PA does approximately that, of course.
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01:04:17 <tswett> I dunno. Consider PA-0, a synonym of PA. PA-0 is arithmetically sound.
01:04:33 <tswett> Now consider PA-0 + "PA-0 is arithmetically sound". Is this theory arithmetically sound?
01:04:47 <tswett> All you did was add a true axiom to an arithmetically sound theory.
01:05:34 <tswett> If all the axioms of a theory are true, then the theory must be arithmetically sound. Right? Is that how that works?
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01:05:57 <Lymia> PA-0 + "PA-0 is arithmetically sound" != PA-0 though.
01:06:46 <FireFly> Wouldn't you want to check that the newly-added axiom doesn't cause any paradoxes when used together with the old axioms?
01:07:19 <tswett> But truth is closed under modus ponens.
01:07:34 <tswett> So if all the axioms of a theory are true, and the only inference rule is modus ponens, then all the consequences of the theory are true.
01:08:20 <tswett> So if PA-0 is arithmetically sound, then PA-0 + "PA-0 is arithmetically sound" is arithmetically sound. I think.
01:08:25 <tswett> So call the new theory PA-1.
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01:09:32 <tswett> And I sense a paradox. Doesn't PA-1 prove that PA-1 is arithmetically sound?
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01:10:47 <tswett> PA-1 proves that PA-0 is arithmetically sound. Therefore, PA-1 proves that every theorem of PA-0 is true. Does PA-1 prove that the statement "PA-0 is arithematically sound" is true?
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01:12:59 <tswett> If it does, then PA-1 proves that every axiom of PA-0 + "PA-0 is arithmetically sound" is true. Which is to say, PA-1 proves that every axiom of PA-1 is true.
01:13:13 <tswett> But I'm pretty sure that PA-1 actually doesn't prove that the statement "PA-0 is arithmetically sound" is true.
01:13:35 <tswett> Indeed, I don't think you can define truth in PA-1.
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01:15:14 <tswett> By the same argument, PA-1 + "PA-1 is arithmetically sound" is arithmetically sound. Call this theory PA-2.
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01:15:43 <tswett> And, by the same argument, PA + "PA-n is arithmetically sound for all natural numbers n". Call this theory PA-omega.
01:16:13 <tswett> Of course, there's also PA-omega+1, which is PA-omega + "PA-omega is arithmetically sound".
01:16:22 <tswett> Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.
01:16:33 <tswett> Arithmetic soundness can't be defined in arithmetic. Whoops.
01:16:49 <tswett> Okay, pretend that instead of "arithmetically sound", I said "consistent", everywhere above.
01:17:25 <tswett> And it almost seems like for any ordinal number p, we can define the system PA-p as PA + "PA-n is consisten for all ordinal numbers n less than p".
01:17:52 <tswett> But this depends on "ordinal number less than p" being definable in arithmetic.
01:20:01 <tswett> Which raises a simple question.
01:20:34 <tswett> How large can ordinal numbers go before their arithmetic niceness starts to break down?
01:23:45 <tswett> There ought to be some ordinal number p which is the smallest ordinal number p such that "ordinal number less than p" isn't definable in arithmetic.
01:30:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lisp2d]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41614 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+1604) creational
01:44:43 <elliott> @tell Deewiant https://github.com/shinh/beflisp/blob/master/beflisp.bef !!!
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02:21:07 <zzo38> I think it might make more sense if whether or not a loyalty ability has already been used in one turn is also a status of a permanent, so that all permanents are initially "ready" each turn (regardless who controls it) but then a loyalty ability makes it to be unready so that it cannot be used again. I don't know entirely, but, it make a few sense to me.
02:22:35 <tswett> Hmm. By Godel's completeness theorem, a statement is provable in a theory if and only if it is true in all models of the theory. I think. Something like that.
02:23:06 <tswett> So coming up with a "standard obviously arithmetically sound theory" is, I suppose, the same thing as coming up with a standard collection of models of arithmetic.
02:23:48 <tswett> Of course, the collection has to include some non-standard models.
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02:29:56 <shachaf> zzo38: If you think the rules are mistaken, you can write Wizards of the Coast, I think.
02:30:09 <shachaf> In fact you can ven write them when you're not sure about a ruling. Or so I hear.
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02:35:43 <callforjudgement> the rulings department of their customer service is actually really good
02:35:57 <callforjudgement> also the rules manager takes questions on tumblr, but normally gives snarky replies for amusement value
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02:42:24 <zzo38> The rules are either mistaken or unclear, I am unsure which. (Possibly both.)
02:44:17 <int-e> tswett: I don't think that "PA-0 is artihmetically sound" is expressible in first-order logic, at least not using the language of PA. (Truth in the standard model of PA is not definable in PA.) So it's unclear what PA-1 is; it has to differ from PA-0 in more than just the axioms.
02:45:05 <tswett> int-e: right, arithmetic soundness can't be defined in arithmetic.
02:46:19 <tswett> So pretend I said "consistent" instead.
02:47:59 <zzo38> In the rules for declaring an attack, it never says they are "declared as an attacker". At first it says creatures are "chosen", and later on some of them "become an attacking creature". It doesn't seem to properly define "declared as an attacker" as far as I can tell.
02:49:40 <Sgeo> `decodeunicode
02:49:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: decodeunicode: not found
02:49:51 <HackEgo> U+F17A - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef 85 ba UTF-16BE: f17a Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+F17A \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
02:53:00 <int-e> tswett: Ok. Then PA-1 is consistent if PA-0 is; and if PA-1 has the standard model as a model then it actually proves that PA-0 is consistent. Very circular.
02:53:48 <tswett> You're saying that if PA-0 (which is to say, PA) is consistent, then PA-1 (which is to say, PA + "PA is consistent") is consistent?
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02:54:21 <tswett> I guess that's provable in ZFC.
02:54:23 <int-e> yes, because we know that consistency of PA is independent of the axioms of PA; it can neither be proved nor disproved in PA.
02:54:37 <int-e> as a meta-theorem, of course.
02:55:36 <int-e> inside the theory, there's no doubt that PA-1 proves consistency of PA-0. It's just unclear whether PA-1 has a model ;-)
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02:56:13 <int-e> also, the meaning of "consistency" changes in non-standard models; you can have non-standard proves.
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02:56:58 <int-e> (Which is why (PA + "PA is inconsistent") is consistent, assuming PA is.)
02:59:15 <vanila> int-e, do you know where i could read about a nonstandard consistency proof?
03:02:01 <int-e> There isn't anything to what I said beyond Gödel's Incompleteness theorem (and surrounding theory of first-order logic, like compactness, Löwenheim-Skolem, and Gödel's completeness theorem).
03:02:33 <int-e> If you have a statement that is independent of the axioms of PA, then you can add the statement itself or its negation to the axioms and obtain a consistent theory.
03:02:34 <tswett> Well, non-standard proofs are just non-standard integers with the property of being proofs.
03:02:44 <int-e> Only one of these theories will have the standard model of PA as a model.
03:02:53 <tswett> So just read about non-standard numbers.
03:03:06 <shachaf> Speaking of numbers, what are some interesting characterizations of the reals?
03:04:47 <int-e> Ah. That's the question. Right, Gödel encodes proofs as natural numbers. Since there is a proof of false in our new theory, and because we know that no natural number corresponds to a proof of false, there must be a non-natural number in some model (that's a non-standard number) that is interpreted as a "proof" for false; that's what I meant by non-standard proof.
03:05:34 <int-e> (Which is likely to present an infinite, possibly circular, proof tree.)
03:07:45 <vanila> i dont really understand about nonstandard consistency proof, I thinkI got mixed up
03:07:58 <vanila> a consistency proof just shows the theory valid
03:08:06 <vanila> we get nonstandard models from the godel stuff
03:08:28 <int-e> vanila: No. We have expressed "T(PA) is consistent" as a first-order sentence in PA itself.
03:09:02 <int-e> vanila: Basically that's "For all n, n does not represent a proof of 0=1."
03:09:52 <int-e> vanila: the negation is "There exists an n such that n represents a proof of 0=1". And that statement is true in models of "PA + PA is inconsistent"
03:10:48 <int-e> vanila: But such models are non-standard models, so 'n' does not have to be a natural number. And that changes the meaning of "n represents a proof of 0=1" to include things that are not actually proofs.
03:11:03 <vanila> I see! thanks for explaining it to me
03:11:08 <vanila> thats very mind bending
03:11:23 <int-e> the numbers are called non-standard numbers, and that term naturally carries over to the proofs that such numbers represent.
03:17:01 <tswett> Right. A theory can assert that there exists a natural number n satisfying a property P, while also, for every natural number n, asserting that n does not satisfy the property P.
03:17:13 <tswett> IIRC, this is called omega-inconsistency.
03:17:20 <tswett> Which isn't actually a type of inconsistency.
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03:41:42 <tswett> So I'm trying to think how successfully you could define the ordinal numbers in arithmetic.
03:42:26 <Jafet> You can define the definable ones, and probably can't define the undefinable ones
03:42:52 <tswett> Rather, how successfully you could define "ordinal number".
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03:44:01 <Jafet> As successfully as any other recursively enumerable theory can
03:45:01 <tswett> I think there are a couple definitions of a recursive ordinal (one less than the Church-Kleene ordinal), all equivalent. One is a computer program calculating a well-order on the natural numbers.
03:46:02 <tswett> I'm not actually sure how you could define "computer program calculating a well-order on the natural numbers" in arithmetic.
03:46:14 <tswett> You can define a computer program calculating a total order.
03:46:24 <tswett> How do you define wellness of an order?
03:50:08 <int-e> Well, not quite true. If you regard set theory as a first-order theory with \in as a constant then of course you can...
03:50:28 <Jafet> You want ordinals as arithmetic functions?
03:50:37 <tswett> Sure, but I'm thinking first-order logic over the integers.
03:51:05 <int-e> But in PA, with a defined relation on natural numbers, you can't express that the relation is well-founded.
03:51:38 <tswett> So if we go way back to that thing I was trying to do...
03:51:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41615&oldid=41596 * Scoppini * (+10)
03:52:29 <tswett> For an ordinal number p, I wanted to define PA-p as PA + "PA-n is consistent for all ordinal numbers n less than p".
03:52:40 <tswett> Actually, you know what's completely possible?
03:53:08 <int-e> You can take all true statements and collect them in a first-order theory.
03:53:27 <int-e> It escapes Gödel's incompleteness theorem because it's not a recursive theory.
03:53:48 <int-e> ("truth" being w.r.t. the standard model)
03:54:02 <tswett> For any set T that's well-founded and hereditarily recursively enumerable, you can define PA-T as PA + "PA-S is consistent for all elements S of T".
03:55:23 <tswett> And I think you can weaken "recursively enumerable" to permit oracle machines or whatever.
04:03:33 <tswett> Really, T just has to be well-founded and the collection of all its hereditary elements has to have a definable membership relation.
04:04:11 <tswett> What's the smallest ordinal number which fails to have that property?
04:05:53 <tswett> I think that can be rephrased like so: what's the smallest infinite ordinal number that isn't the order type of a well-ordering of the natural numbers which is definable using only quantifiers over the natural numbers?
04:06:15 <int-e> is it this one, which came up here recently? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church-Kleene_ordinal
04:06:52 <int-e> I don't know how to answer such questions.
04:08:06 <int-e> oh there are several other funny ordinals linked from that page.
04:09:41 <tswett> Or maybe it is that one.
04:10:11 <tswett> I dunno. I gotta sleep.
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04:58:00 <Deewiant> elliott: bc2bef.cc's genInt should totally be using fungify... but I don't think it'll make it much more efficient
04:58:25 <elliott> I wonder how much work a full LLVM backend would be :p
05:02:43 <elliott> maybe nothing? the converter looked kinda short.
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05:03:48 <Deewiant> At least function definitions and calls, it seems
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05:48:15 * Sgeo wonders if Dojo is any good
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06:32:31 <Sgeo> Whee! http://jsfiddle.net/aenerkoh/1/
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06:36:09 <Sgeo> Hmm. Does your browser support innerText?
06:36:17 <Sgeo> Or, what's wrong with it exactly?
06:36:19 <vanila> Using //@ to indicate sourceURL pragmas is deprecated. Use //# instead
06:36:43 <shachaf> Shouldn't you use textContent instead of innerText?
06:36:59 <Sgeo> shachaf: probably, but was lazy and only using it for debugging
06:37:01 <Sgeo> I'll go change it
06:37:24 <Sgeo> textContent doesn't support \n?
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06:37:51 <shachaf> I'd imagine that it does, and behaves the same as typing a newline into the HTML yourself.
06:37:52 <Sgeo> textContent version: http://jsfiddle.net/aenerkoh/2/
06:38:03 <Sgeo> shachaf: why does \n work with innerText?
06:38:13 <shachaf> I don't know. Isn't innerText an IE thing?
06:38:29 <Sgeo> Working for me in Chrome
07:02:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41616&oldid=41612 * Keymaker * (+91) Corrected 'E' and clarified 'A' a bit.
07:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41617&oldid=41616 * Keymaker * (+27) 'E' again, now it should be right.
07:21:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think those procedures with the humbled aura I described yesterday don't really work. The problem is that they create an aura permanent that isn't attached to anything and is already on the battlefield, so it will be put to the graveyard by state-based effects before you could do anything.
07:21:57 <b_jonas> We need to somehow humble an aura that is already attached, which seems much more difficult.
07:23:30 <b_jonas> perhaps that could still be done somehow
07:24:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41618&oldid=41477 * Keymaker * (+325) Added XRF.
07:27:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41619&oldid=41617 * Keymaker * (+57) Linked a truth-machine.
07:32:36 <b_jonas> Make Mizzium Transreliquat copy Cranial Plating with the second ability. Stack the ability to make it copy Holy Strength (Liquimetal Coated), then stack the Plating's ability to attach it to a bear. Then Animate Artifact it (using Teferi), Humble it, Shatter the Animate, resolve the attach (valid because it's an equipment), resolve the copy. Now it's an attached humbled aura.
07:33:43 <coppro> what are we trying to do?
07:34:44 <b_jonas> coppro: get a state where you have an aura permanent with no "enchant" ability,
07:35:19 <b_jonas> because the rules aren't quite clear what such a permanent can be attached to in a valid way, so it's unclear whether it can even remain on the battlefield, and what you can reattach it to (such as with Simic Guildmage)
07:35:52 <b_jonas> the difficulty is that it has to be a _noncreature_ aura
07:35:59 <b_jonas> because a creature aura doesn't hang along for long enough
07:36:29 <b_jonas> and it has to be attached or just coming into play, because an unattached aura doesn't hang along for long enough either
07:36:59 <b_jonas> the first attempted solution was to manifest a Holy Strength, then Humble it, then Break Open it
07:37:07 <b_jonas> but then it's not attached to anything
07:37:43 <b_jonas> this way I think it can remain attached, because a humbled non-cretaure equipment can clearly remain attached
07:39:16 <coppro> I don't think it's possible
07:39:29 <b_jonas> why? does the procedure I said not work?
07:41:12 <coppro> We don't know the rules for manifest
07:41:22 <b_jonas> coppro: the complicated one I said doesn't use manifest
07:41:36 <b_jonas> it doesn't use anything newer than ravnica (mirrodin I think actually)
07:41:49 <b_jonas> with Mizzium Transreliquat
07:42:14 <b_jonas> I'm using Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir from Time Spiral
07:42:37 <b_jonas> hmm, what's the older way to replace that, putting an aura into play at instant speed?
07:43:11 <coppro> ok yeah, I think that works
07:43:28 <coppro> it's an aura creature, so it goes to the graveyard
07:43:42 <coppro> it does happen, but only momentarily
07:44:01 <b_jonas> no, it doesn't become an aura before we shatter the animate artifact
07:44:58 <b_jonas> that's why I need "Animate Artifact", an aura, rather than an instant, but I wonder how to get around that without using Teferi
07:46:47 <coppro> teferi doesn't let you cast noncreatures at instant-speed either
07:47:00 <b_jonas> so you need Vedalken Orrery
07:47:21 <b_jonas> but isn't there some older card that just lets me either cast an enchantment card or put it into play at instant speed?
07:47:40 <b_jonas> but Vedalken Orrery works of course
07:48:46 <b_jonas> March of the Machines works instead of Animate Artifact, but that doesn't really help
07:53:51 <int-e> beautiful. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19736
07:54:55 <int-e> (via http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Flash )
07:57:12 <b_jonas> ok, so either Vernal Equinox or Vedalken Orrery works
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08:03:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: also Hypergenesis cast with Quicken, but Hypergenesis is way too new
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08:03:48 <b_jonas> ais523: we found a problem with that construction of the non-creature aura without enchant, but I think we found a way to fix it with zzo38
08:04:27 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem is that our previous constructions create an aura that isn't attached to anything and isn't just right now coming to play, so it's put to the gy as a state-based effect and doesn't live long enough
08:04:48 <b_jonas> Make Mizzium Transreliquat copy Cranial Plating with the second ability. Stack the ability to make it copy Holy Strength (Liquimetal Coated),
08:05:21 <b_jonas> then stack the Plating's ability to attach it to a bear. Then Animate Artifact it (using Vedalken Orrery or Vernal Equinox), Humble it, Shatter the Animate, resolve the attach (valid because it's an equipment), resolve the copy.
08:05:25 <b_jonas> Now it's an attached humbled aura.
08:06:00 <b_jonas> The trick is that while it's a non-creature equipment, it can unquestionable remain attached to a bear even if it's humbled.
08:07:59 <int-e> Hmm, what is the intention of this rule, "Auras that can enchant a player can target and be attached to players. Such Auras can’t target permanents and can’t be attached to permanents."
08:08:07 <b_jonas> So before the final step, resolving the copy of an aura, you have to have a humbled non-creature equipment attached to a creature.
08:08:46 <b_jonas> Humble doesn't change types or subtypes.
08:09:16 <int-e> (Without the Enchant ability, the aura can target players, hence not permanents? ...)
08:09:43 <shachaf> int-e: You mean, why is it necessary?
08:10:12 <int-e> shachaf: I doubt it's necessary, I think it's answering an FAQ.
08:10:21 <int-e> Or trying to, anyway.
08:10:47 <shachaf> I think there are a lot of rules that just clarify things and aren't strictly necessary.
08:14:43 <int-e> But I'm trying to figure out the effect of that rule in the absence of Enchant abilities, with "Copy Enchantment" in mind. AFAIU, you play that spell, and choose a target. When it resolves, you replace it by an Aura on the battlefield. But there's no "Enchant" ability in effect when you pick the target. I wonder if that's right...
08:15:11 <int-e> Oh well, maybe later...
08:15:49 <shachaf> int-e: There's no targeting as such when you cast it, is there?
08:16:20 <int-e> "303.4a An Aura spell requires a target, which is restricted by its enchant ability."
08:16:36 <shachaf> Yes, but Copy Enchantment isn't an Aura spell.
08:16:46 <shachaf> It becomes an aura when it resolves, but it's not a spell at that point.
08:16:53 <b_jonas> Animate Artifact is an uncommon in revised? nice
08:17:10 <b_jonas> that means it's super-cheap
08:17:41 <ais523> well, revised was ages ago
08:17:44 <shachaf> "As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost."
08:17:50 <ais523> there's also ensoul artifact from the most recent core set
08:18:01 <ais523> which might work a bit better
08:18:07 <shachaf> Something about layers, I guess?
08:18:53 <ais523> yep, the ability can't cancel out its own effect
08:19:01 <ais523> because it doesn't look at itself to see whether to trigger or not
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08:19:44 <shachaf> I guess you don't mean trigger in the game sense of the word.
08:20:06 <b_jonas> oh, I didn't know about Ensoul Artifact, nice
08:20:19 <b_jonas> though I wanted to do this with cards from ravnica or older if possible
08:20:36 <ais523> shachaf: right, I didn't
08:20:50 <ais523> b_jonas: any reason to favour old cards?
08:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Container]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41620 * T.J.S.1 * (+195) Created page with "== Implementation == Is there any implementation for this language yet? If not, I might (or might not) write one. ~~~~"
08:24:45 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps ravnica is too strict, but I just wanted to make sure it's not something in the rules that's broken only recently and they just hadn't had time to catch up and fix the rules in next set update
08:26:01 <shachaf> Rules changes affect old cards too.
08:26:18 <b_jonas> ais523: also I don't know cards after m12 well enough, so I want to know that there's rules breakage possible even with cards I should have known, not only with new cards I might have never seen,
08:26:28 <b_jonas> thuogh admittedly it's _my_ fault that I'm not following new sets much
08:26:43 <shachaf> Convoke was in Ravnica, right?
08:27:21 <shachaf> That was changed recently.
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08:29:33 <b_jonas> there was one real rules breakage I found once that has existed from Ravnica to approximately Eventide when I found it and they fixed it
08:35:52 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: it wasn't specified what Patron of the Akki's "offering" ability does if you sacrifice a hybrid card like Boros Recruit
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08:56:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41621&oldid=41619 * Keymaker * (+434) Added a random generator.
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08:59:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41622&oldid=41621 * Keymaker * (+0) "top" -> "two"
09:01:09 <myname> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?ultimate+problem what's wrong with these statistics? 13 - 0B / 11B / 1B
09:03:11 <mitchs> whitespace is not counted, if that's what you mean
09:05:14 <J_Arcane> myname: it seems like most of those scores are not really following the intent.
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09:19:41 <elliott> https://i.imgur.com/PINcCUy.gif alright which one of you did this
09:23:15 <shachaf> r0nk isn't in this channel hth
09:25:26 <elliott> vanila: state machine diagram
09:27:12 <elliott> the nodes with two paths to follow are the loop transitions?
09:27:50 <elliott> https://github.com/r0nk/ward
09:29:25 <vanila> most interesting is that he seems to have implemented some kind of ASCII art graph layout program
09:30:39 <vanila> https://github.com/r0nk/simplecpu
09:30:48 <vanila> this guy is very good at getting to the front page of hackernews
09:36:38 <b_jonas> I said there had to be a down to earth way to put the Animate Artifact to play at instant speed without giving it flash with Vedalken Orrery or Vernal Equinox, and without heavy magic like clockspinned Hypergenesis. There is, though it doesn't improve this construction:
09:37:20 <b_jonas> Play the enchantment earlier, exile it with an Oblivion Ring, and get it back at instant speed with Disenchant.
09:38:33 <b_jonas> (Of course, the heavy wizardry here is not this part anyway. It's the Mizzium Transreliquat which is the key piece.)
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09:47:40 <b_jonas> And it doesn't seem to be easy to replace either, because I think it's the only card with a "become a copy" ability that can copy from a non-creature.
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10:01:11 * J_Arcane prods his way through a Scala tutorial.
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10:26:50 <J_Arcane> val num = file.map(wordcount).reduceLeft(_ + _)
10:27:36 <vanila> you have to read it from left to right i guess
10:28:29 <J_Arcane> IT's the use of the double anonymous variable there that makes my head go whaaaa.
10:30:03 <vanila> wow the BLC thing use a bytecode
10:31:03 <J_Arcane> Similarly wat worthy is that you can define functions with either a parens'd list (x: Int, y: Int, etc.), *or* with multiple parenthesised arguments, ie. (x: int)(y: int)(etc...)
10:31:10 <vanila> holy crap :O this is so cool
10:33:19 <J_Arcane> Amusingly, it also has a carrying for loop like Heresy does. :D
10:38:15 <vanila> i thought of a neat idea
10:38:22 <vanila> brainfuck VIRTUAL MACHINE
10:45:09 <mroman> who wrote blsqbot a message o_O
10:46:51 <mroman> which roughly translates as \x y -> x + y?
10:47:37 <mroman> As long as you don't need \x y -> x + x :)
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10:52:47 <vanila> why does the wiki have to be so slow :(
10:53:14 <oerjan> vanila: because it runs on a free cloud server
10:53:29 <vanila> I want a free cloud server
10:53:38 <oerjan> well, as you can see, they're crap
10:53:41 <vanila> do you know if I can run mirage app for free?
10:54:07 * oerjan doesn't have a vps/cloud server himself so isn't the right person to ask
10:54:10 <vanila> zzo38, I created a gopher server i dont know if you're interested
10:59:02 <mroman> I might be able to host a proxy of the esowiki :)
10:59:12 <mroman> might be faster but will be out of date of course :D
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11:00:52 <oerjan> careful or you might end up hosting the wiki itself
11:04:25 <vanila> im writing a brainfuck compiler in ocaml
11:08:11 <oerjan> wtf is with that child in the kindergarten across the street
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11:12:37 <Taneb> oerjan, my vision and graphics exam is in two hours, I guess I can sympathize with the child
11:13:27 <oerjan> i don't think it's that kind of scream
11:14:33 <oerjan> i was trying to find a more precise term but wikipedia/wiktionary is useless for distinguishing them
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11:14:58 <oerjan> let's just say it's probably not out of pain
11:15:24 <oerjan> and contains no sign of a vowel
11:21:32 <oerjan> googling "types of screams" appears to find metal music discussions
11:23:29 <Taneb> I shall now play Mario instead of last minute cramming
11:23:37 <oren> metal is the dubstep of non-electronic music
11:23:38 <Taneb> I reckon if I don't know something by now I am not going to know it
11:24:27 <boily> Tanelle. which Mario?
11:24:28 <oerjan> oren: i ... don't think i like dubstep either, although i have heard very little of it. (the only one i recall was a parody one by ylvis)
11:24:44 <Taneb> boily, the Nintendo plumber guy
11:24:49 <Taneb> (New Super Mario Bros 2)
11:25:48 <oren> oerjan: well, not everyone likes harsh semi-melodicness
11:26:11 <boily> oerjan: That Was Not Helping But Now It Helps.
11:27:19 * oerjan is always nervous when he tries to remember how to trick the hth script into getting punctuation past it.
11:27:26 <oren> blah i woke up at 3 am today...
11:27:36 <oren> is it breakfast time yet????
11:27:57 <oerjan> oren: well i just ate breakfast, it's 12:30 PM hth
11:28:17 <oren> you're 6 hours ahead of me
11:28:48 <oerjan> it's like i'm zoned out ... of time
11:30:28 <oren> tell boily: i'm 21
11:30:51 <oren> @tell boily: i'm 21
11:31:25 <oerjan> oren: i don't think poor boily: will ever manage to get that message, seeing as he's an illegal character
11:31:41 <oerjan> maybe there was an excemption for :
11:32:08 <boily> oren: you're 21? it's your birthday?
11:33:18 <oren> boily asked 14d 12h 18m 35s ago: What are your approximate ages?
11:34:01 <oerjan> is lambdabot acting up with its messages again or have you really been away all that time?
11:34:12 * boily has absolutely no recollection ever having had asked that...
11:34:24 <boily> but the Bot is Law, and I follow it.
11:34:28 <oerjan> boily: i think i vaguely recollect it
11:34:59 <oren> @massages-loud
11:36:02 <oren> does it do a distance measure to the nearest command?
11:37:04 <oerjan> yes, with a maximum of 2
11:38:44 <oerjan> @info sometimes a bit confusing though
11:39:40 <oerjan> (your exercise shall be to find out which command that _actually_ triggered)
11:44:13 <oren> @echo probably this one?
11:44:13 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-04-1096704252.dsl.bell.ca", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo probably this one?"]} target:#esoteric rest:"probably this one?"
11:44:30 <oren> apparently not
11:47:14 <oren> @kind maybe this
11:47:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type variable ‘maybe’
11:47:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type variable ‘this’
11:50:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn unpf ping kind id bf
11:51:11 <b_jonas> why isn't there a chdirat system call?
11:52:23 <oerjan> oren: it's not @unpf although it may be tricky to tell - the edit distance is too large
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11:52:53 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4294967295
11:53:29 <oerjan> in fact it's none of those in that list
11:53:37 <vanila> what two numbers could I multiply to get 0xFFFFFFFF? is it a square?
11:54:33 <oren> you could multiply 0xffff and 0x10001
11:55:01 <oerjan> it's -1 (mod 2^32), not sure if that's a square on the spot
11:56:11 <oerjan> vanila: you can choose one of the numbers to be anything not divisible by 2
11:56:49 <oerjan> because those have inverses (mod 2^32)
11:56:49 <vanila> okay but they both need to be <= 25 bits
11:57:10 <oerjan> well oren's suggestion sounds good then
11:58:12 <oerjan> they're pretty obviously the smallest
11:58:20 <vanila> okay now i have + and - working!
12:00:12 <b_jonas> whe happens when we run out of bits for flags to open? there are already about 24 of them and every year someone invents a new one.
12:01:38 <vanila> always have one bit spare that lets you increase the length of the flag section
12:07:22 <b_jonas> Jafet: count the ones Linux supports in latest versions; plus the ones POSIX defines recently: O_SEARCH and O_EXECUTE and O_DSYNC and O_RSYNC; plus the two locking flags OpenBSD and other BSDs define
12:09:25 <Jafet> You could have a bit that tells open to look for additional bits in the mode.
12:11:44 <vanila> god damn it my entire idea doesn't work because of [ skipping if starts with zero
12:11:52 <b_jonas> Jafet: hmm, maybe, but that would be a bit ugly
12:11:55 <vanila> you can't compile brainfuck without parsing it first :(
12:12:18 <b_jonas> let me count. O_WRONLY, O_RDWR, O_SEARCH, O_EXECUTE (4 so far), O_APPEND, O_CREAT, O_EXCL, O_TRUNC (8 so far), O_NONBLOCK, O_CLOEXEC, O_ASYNC, O_DIRECTORY (12 so far),
12:12:31 <vanila> at least if you're emitting jumps as numeric steps
12:13:18 <vanila> brainfuck withouth the rule that [ jumps across when 0
12:13:26 <vanila> it's got no "if" so is it still turing complete?
12:13:41 <b_jonas> O_SHLOCK, O_EXLOCK, O_NOFOLLOW, O_DIRECTORY (16 so far), O_NOCTTY, O_LARGEFILE, O_PATH, O_TMPFILE (20 so far), O_DIRECT, O_SYNC, O_DSYNC, O_RSYNC (24 so far),
12:14:02 <b_jonas> O_NOATIME, O_TTY_INIT (26 total).
12:15:18 <b_jonas> vanila: we talked about that a bit ago. I believe I can prove it turing-complete, though it has restrictions on its io
12:15:35 <b_jonas> but I didn't write the proof down properly so I could be wrong.
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12:17:14 <b_jonas> additional bits in the mode? hmm, that could work. the mode has like 11 bits free.
12:17:58 <b_jonas> the permission bits take 12 bits, the file type bits (not used in open, but someone could pass them) take 4,
12:20:30 <oerjan> <vanila> god damn it my entire idea doesn't work because of [ skipping if starts with zero <-- a common problem for first-time brainfuck implementers
12:21:22 <Jafet> Since its type is mode_t, in principle it can have as many bits as you like...
12:21:23 <int-e> But surely do-while-not-zero-brainfuck is TC.
12:21:58 <vanila> I got array index out of bounds trying to run hello world in that variant :(
12:22:32 <vanila> i was hoping it would just work
12:22:39 <int-e> what's that doing in a hello world program?
12:22:56 <vanila> i dont really know, i think its part of a trick to construct a number in a short way
12:23:06 <int-e> (probably one of these fugly constants-in-brainfuck snippets)
12:26:51 <vanila> does anyone have a no-if friendly hello world?
12:28:15 <int-e> http://copy.sh/brainfuck/text.html generates friendly code.
12:28:54 <oerjan> `! bf_txtgen Hello, world!
12:29:04 <HackEgo> 122 ++++++++++++++[>>+++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+. [384]
12:29:35 <vanila> +[--------->++<]>+. this is for S
12:29:40 <int-e> oerjan: thanks. I was too lazy to look that up.
12:29:58 <vanila> thanks for the nice link,
12:30:04 <vanila> its just I have not got negative numbers in mine
12:30:24 <int-e> vanila: the bf_txtgen thing should work fine for you
12:30:49 <HackEgo> 33 +++++++[>++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>-. [18]
12:31:06 <int-e> (though it looks a bit silly!)
12:31:14 <vanila> now i just have to implemnt ]
12:31:19 <oerjan> it's not immensely efficient for single letters, i should think
12:31:21 <vanila> haha i should optimize >< and things
12:31:29 <oerjan> yeah it doesn't do that
12:34:22 <oren> >< should be multiplication
12:34:32 <oren> in some language'
12:36:54 <mroman> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
12:36:55 <mroman> /dev/vzfs 4.0G 3.1G 934M 78% /
12:37:20 <vanila> `! bf_txtgen Hello from UM!
12:37:27 <HackEgo> 118 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>+++++.<..+++.<----.>>+.<+++.---.--.<.<+++++++++++++.--------.>+. [278]
12:38:20 <mroman> before it goes down I guess I can sacrifice some available space.
12:40:15 <mroman> currently esolangs.org is pretty fast
12:40:36 <int-e> 4 GB, that's pretty darn small these days...
12:40:54 <vanila> I can compile brainfuck without if to http://esolangs.org/wiki/UM-32
12:41:03 <mroman> It's a pretty bad hosting provider
12:41:12 <mroman> which now got consumed by hosteurope
12:41:15 <vanila> im really glad I wrote this in ocaml, because the idea was to self host
12:41:17 <mroman> but my old contract is still running
12:41:25 <vanila> and I was almost finished it before I realized the if thing...
12:41:34 <mroman> I'm pretty much stuck with it...
12:41:51 <mroman> and honestly I don't really need more than 4GB.
12:42:05 <vanila> so i dont think i will
12:42:15 <mroman> but I need to be able to run haskell programs on it
12:42:30 <mroman> that's pretty much why I decided to rent a vServer
12:42:34 <mroman> and I wanted a swiss hosting provider
12:42:48 <oerjan> vanila: mind you, parsing brainfuck is about the simplest parsing you can do
12:43:10 <mroman> there _are_ much cheaper hosters with cgi support
12:43:11 <vanila> it's not even a regular language!
12:43:19 <mroman> but you can't install software on them
12:43:27 <mroman> you're just stuck with whatever stuff they have pre-installed
12:43:31 <int-e> vanila: all you need to add is an unconditional jump before the loop to the end of the loop.
12:43:33 <mroman> which isn't really practical
12:43:47 <vanila> int-e,the problem is i dont know where the end of the loop is yet
12:43:58 <vanila> I was trying to emit code as I read in the program
12:44:10 <vanila> so supporting if will require a second pass
12:44:17 <int-e> oh. yes, that generally fails
12:44:21 <oerjan> vanila: nevertheless, there are regular languages that are harder to parse than brainfuck.
12:44:46 <mroman> If I wouldn't host the burlesque online shell I could go with a hosting provider that charges 1.10 CHF a month
12:45:48 <oerjan> vanila: regular languages can encode a finite state machine, while brainfuck needs no state for parsing other than "am i inside a loop or not"
12:46:02 <vanila> dont you need a stack?
12:46:06 <int-e> oerjan: well, you generally need a stack
12:46:20 <mroman> Somebody could start writing a burlesque interpreter in PHP :D
12:46:35 <oerjan> the stack is still simpler than the mess of an arbitrary state graph
12:46:39 <int-e> string matching abracadabra without backtracking is arguably harder than parsing brainfuck.
12:47:07 <int-e> (that's a regular language: strings containing "abracadabra")
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12:48:44 <int-e> try finding the corresponding DFA
12:49:31 <vanila> I could find the DFA, I wrote a program that does it
12:49:39 <mroman> Can't you just parse "parallel"?
12:49:46 <mroman> I.e. be in two states at the same time
12:49:55 <int-e> vanila: bet the program is more difficult than a simple brainfuck interpreter
12:50:02 <vanila> yeah its really complex
12:50:04 <int-e> mroman: no, that's an NFA
12:50:44 <int-e> (I've done that. I wrote my own 'locate' program because the existing one was too slow... it works by generating DFAs.)
12:52:09 <mroman> Although that's probably pretty not-so-performant
12:52:45 <oerjan> i don't think abracadabra is _that_ hard mind you
12:53:42 <oerjan> i don't think parallel is needed
12:54:10 <mroman> And it's probably not-deterministic
12:54:13 <vanila> so if you needed to parse ababababababx
12:54:20 <vanila> it would be hard if you are inside a strema like
12:54:22 <mroman> since, if you try to match abra OR abracadabra
12:54:24 <vanila> abababababababababababababab
12:54:29 <vanila> because any time an x comes you need to be ready for it
12:54:39 <mroman> the "thread" who finishes first will determine as what it parses
12:54:41 <int-e> ababcababcdababcababcdababc
12:55:00 <oerjan> vanila: yeah i think that's harder in a sense
12:55:38 <int-e> Oh, this part I forgot: The locate started out just doing KMP... (KMP builds a DFA)
12:55:47 <mroman> and you need serious thread handling to terminate other threads once a thread has parsed something
12:56:03 <vanila> so it rebuilds the DFA every time?
12:56:07 <oerjan> i think for both that and abracadabra you just need to know the longest initial substring you've parsed up to now
12:56:22 <mroman> you need to terminate every thread that overlaps with what the succeeding thread parsed
12:56:35 <vanila> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UM-32 I compile brainfuck without if to this
12:58:06 <int-e> oerjan: yeah it's not as hard as it could be; essentially you'll have to know whether the previous character was an a or not. but it's confusing to think about.
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13:00:40 <oerjan> i think the number of states is exactly the number of characters in "abracadabra"
13:01:17 <oerjan> oh i guess a final state
13:01:21 <int-e> (generally plus one: one state for each position, starting before the first letter, and ending past the last one)
13:01:35 <int-e> (similar ideas work for translating regexps to NFAs)
13:02:11 <oerjan> int-e: well i'd argue that if you're looking for _all_ (non-overlapping) abracadabra substrings, the initial position is equivalent to the final one
13:02:36 <int-e> you can do that...
13:04:32 <oerjan> now try parsing "infinitive" instead
13:05:21 <Jafet> locate can probably use a suffix tree
13:05:23 <oerjan> no, i think that's still the same
13:05:50 <oerjan> if you are searching for one word, it doesn't really get harder than "how much of the word have i seen so far"
13:06:26 <int-e> oerjan: yes. see KMP
13:07:48 <int-e> Jafet: I never bothered. 5x faster than the existing locate was good enough, and I went for regex search instead.
13:08:15 <oerjan> ah, that's exactly what the first wikipedia paragraph says
13:08:18 <Jafet> Implementing regex search on suffix trees sounds fun
13:08:54 <Jafet> Yes, that kind of fun
13:08:59 <Jafet> What does gnu locate do?
13:09:21 <int-e> generate a list of files from its database; check each.
13:09:36 <int-e> (for substring or regex match)
13:10:46 <int-e> which is a bit sad; the database has the list of files as deltas (remove k characters; add some more chracters), and that lends itself for an incremental search (only the newly added chracters need to be checked.)
13:11:21 <Jafet> So it's a serialised trie?
13:11:46 <Jafet> Delightfully awful
13:17:46 <int-e> ah, it's "lends itself to".
13:18:57 <Jafet> That's what I read
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14:13:55 <oren> so i'm revisiting my idea for a programming language based on RTS games
14:14:21 <oren> you have various workers and buildings
14:18:29 <Jafet> Ok, but make sure that it's competitively balanced.
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14:22:20 <oren> Jafet: not a problem, all units and all buildings are at first identical
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14:22:51 <b_jonas> oren: what? if they're all identical, why would I ever play with the night elves?
14:23:04 <b_jonas> or do they differ in their research?
14:23:18 <oren> they differ as you tell them to differ
14:23:56 <b_jonas> ok, then I tell my orcs gather more gold than yours
14:24:07 <int-e> "you there! be an armoury. you there! be a bridge! you there, be gone!"
14:24:20 <oren> exactly that sort of thing
14:24:54 <oren> but you define the interactions manually so there is more latitude
14:26:44 <oren> but the key is, all "programming" is done by mousing, there is no text in the whole language
14:28:21 <oren> there is only one resource, but unlike normal RTS you have to carry it to the place you want to use it
14:28:29 <b_jonas> what? wy would I hvae to use the mouse?
14:28:55 <oren> you could use a touch screen or a joytick i suppose
14:29:19 <b_jonas> why can't I just use my keyboard?
14:29:33 <int-e> it's only fun if you can instruct your ... entitities ... do carry around the resource for you
14:30:10 <oren> you start with one entity who carries 1000 resource
14:37:11 <oren> then you can build buildings, which produce more resuorce at a rate
14:37:43 <oren> and then you can tell workers to take resource from one building and place it in another
14:38:08 <oren> and of course buildings can create workers
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14:53:02 <oren> so the data storage would be buildings that produce resource at rate zero
14:55:15 <oren> workers' action loops can include conditions, waiting, etc
14:56:38 <oren> maybe i/o would be represented by a building that you place N resource into to output character N
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15:01:33 <Jafet> I/O happens when you destroy enemy units or lose yours hth
15:03:37 <oren> a worker carrying no resource dies
15:03:51 <oren> so you kill a worker by taking all his resource
15:04:25 <oren> similarly a building exists so long as it contains some nonzero amount of resource
15:04:53 <Jafet> The usual cooperative distributed system protocols are so boring. You could support adversarial distributed systems.
15:04:55 <jameseb> oren: workers would have to be created with a certain amount of resource then
15:05:13 <oren> well yeah that is why they sot resource
15:10:05 <oren> Wrokers of course take time to move, take resource out of a building, etc, proportional to the amount of reosurce transferred or distance
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15:11:49 <oren> so to make a program faster i recommend using less resource and moving buildings closer
15:13:28 <oren> i haven't even begun implementing any of this btw
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15:35:44 <vanila> you could implement it highly highly distributed
15:35:49 <vanila> over thousandas of computers
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15:43:59 <Solace> quick u guise, how do I find graph isomorphism in less than n!
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15:46:05 <Jafet> "As of 2008 the best algorithm (Eugene Luks, 1983) has run time 2O(√(n log n)) for graphs with n vertices."
15:47:05 <vanila> Jafet, I thought it was NP hard
15:47:20 <Solace> is that for my question
15:47:35 <yorick> no, it's just NP, not NP hard
15:47:42 <Jafet> It's not proven, and probably isn't
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15:48:34 <vanila> the 2 to the power was outside the O
15:48:37 <vanila> that looks less ridiculous
15:49:02 <Jafet> (it was a HTML superscript.)
15:49:13 <vanila> i haven't slept in way too long
15:49:40 <Jafet> It's still probably not NP-hard, otherwise it would just be 2^O(n)
15:53:06 <FreeFull> http://calmerthanyouare.org/2015/01/07/optimizing-brainfuck.html
15:53:25 <vanila> oh how do you do bitmasks and stuff in brainfuck
15:53:34 <oerjan> Jafet: something can be NP-hard with 2^O(...any polynomial...)
15:53:36 <vanila> like for writing an assembler
15:54:26 <Jafet> Is there any example with 2^sqrt n?
15:54:44 <oerjan> in theory there is. just use padding.
15:55:00 <FreeFull> Too bad that article is more about optimising the interpreter rather than returning optimised BF code
15:55:09 <oerjan> i'm not really an expert on the examples.
15:55:10 <vanila> i kind of wnat to write a self hosting brainfuck compiler
15:55:21 <vanila> but its a lot of hard work...
15:55:32 <oerjan> Jafet: that padding was for you
15:56:16 <Jafet> Ok, the cstheory site has an example
15:56:17 <Solace> I'm sorry for your loss
15:56:26 <Jafet> (o(n), not sqrt n specifically)
15:56:33 <Solace> You guys don't have to calc this y'know
15:58:20 <vanila> FreeFull, This is really good!
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16:39:13 <Jafet> Ok, it's something like 2^O(n/log log n)
16:39:17 <Jafet> That doesn't count imo
16:41:57 <oerjan> Jafet: link to cstheory?
16:42:23 <Jafet> http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/a/3623
16:45:57 <oerjan> doesn't the first answer about max clique count
16:49:38 <Jafet> Huh, is that a kernel for k-clique
16:49:45 <Jafet> or something like that
16:50:56 <Jafet> I should probably enable javascript so I can read the latex
16:53:02 <Jafet> Oh, it counts edges
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17:14:07 <Taneb> Well, that went OK
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19:44:48 <J_Arcane> Wow. I don't even understand this one: http://www.codewars.com/kata/reviews/5418c2901d3bf380da00025c/groups/5423adab48306ff68700045f
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20:05:13 <J_Arcane> Wheyhey! Heresy has pretty Scribble docs online now: http://pkg-build.racket-lang.org/doc/heresy/index.html
20:05:35 <Melvar> The codewars thing doesn’t seem to be actually accessible.
20:05:57 <J_Arcane> Huh. I guess the links don't work unless you're logged in or something.
20:06:28 <J_Arcane> It's a Haskell solution for checking CCNs:
20:06:31 <J_Arcane> validate = (== 0) . (`mod` 10) . sum . zipWith ($) (cycle [id, sum . digits . (*2)]) . reverse . digits
20:06:32 <J_Arcane> where digits = map (read . return) . show
20:16:04 <J_Arcane> It's the zipWith ($) (cycle ...) bit that completely mystifies me. I have no idea what that even does.
20:16:52 <J_Arcane> credit card numbers. It's the Luhn algorithm.
20:17:09 <Melvar> Well, that part’s applying (sum . digits. (*2)) to every second element of the list.
20:17:26 <J_Arcane> That's the goal, yes, but I don't quite understand how it does it.
20:18:25 <lambdabot> [1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2...
20:19:42 <Melvar> It creates an infinite list, every second element of which is that function, and every other element is id.
20:20:33 <Melvar> Since ($) is application, zipWith ($) is elementwise application, so the function is applied to every second element of the list, and id to every other element.
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20:35:52 <J_Arcane> Melvar: OK, I get it now, I think. Almost.
20:39:07 <myname> i am not quite sure about the return
20:39:13 <zzo38> Here is a Magic: the Puzzling I have made, but I don't know if it is correct so see if you can check http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1
20:42:26 <shachaf> zzo38: Drawing is a step, not a phase.
20:42:37 <shachaf> I guess I should say "draw".
20:42:56 <zzo38> shachaf: You are correct I made a mistake
20:43:11 <zzo38> I fixed that mistake now.
20:43:24 <shachaf> I don't know anything about The Dark.
20:43:57 <zzo38> You can easily look up a list of all cards it contains in Gatherer or whatever.
20:44:27 <shachaf> Yes. But that's 119 cards. It seems like a lot to look through for a puzzle.
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20:44:32 <shachaf> Maybe there's an easier way.
20:44:55 <zzo38> You could try to sort them in various ways
20:45:18 <zzo38> (By type, by mana cost, by color, etc)
20:45:39 <zzo38> (And by power/toughness)
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20:47:15 <shachaf> It seems like a large number of cards would do it.
20:47:15 <zzo38> A puzzle in Rosewater's "Magic: the Puzzling" book has a similar stipulation (although you get only one card in your library), which does not even tell you what set the card is in (except in the hints)!
20:48:04 <shachaf> Hm, you don't even need any cards, do you?
20:48:26 <zzo38> shachaf: Can you do it without an extra card? It isn't supposed to be possible, so if it is then it is a mistake hopefully you can tell me how to fix it?
20:50:55 <shachaf> Why can't you just attack with Leviathan and Bloodrush Pyrewild Shaman for 13 damage?
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20:52:19 <b_jonas> the Dark is one of those few old expansion sets
20:52:36 <zzo38> shachaf: How can you earn enough mana?
20:53:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Birds of Paradise and any land? Or any land and Celestial Flare?
20:54:03 <b_jonas> right, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, The Dark, Fallen Empires. there are five of them. I don't really know anything about that.
20:54:32 <zzo38> Celestial Flare? It doesn't have that card.
20:54:47 <zzo38> Requires two mana to activate.
20:55:01 <shachaf> Right, and you get three mana from tapping a land.
20:55:04 <zzo38> Also, you have to sacrifice two islands to use Leviathan.
20:55:49 <shachaf> I didn't see the last line of Leviathan.
20:55:58 <shachaf> I thought you just needed to sacrifice islands to untap it.
20:56:21 <shachaf> But that doesn't matter, does it?
20:56:41 <b_jonas> I think I have at least one card from each of the expansion sets starting from Homelands up to Scars, and no cards from those five early expansion sets.
20:56:59 <zzo38> It is already untapped. However, you need to sacrifice islands to attack, too.
20:58:01 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe it is tricky, then.
20:59:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: so in this puzzle, all of the permanents you list are untapped and not summoning sick, right?
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21:01:00 <b_jonas> oh, you have two mana flares! that means you get UUU from the island
21:01:09 <b_jonas> and three more mana from the land you drop
21:01:15 <zzo38> (If any were, they would be marked as such. Also, summoning sickness is irrelevant as long as Concordant Crossroads is in play.)
21:01:23 <shachaf> b_jonas: So you have 7 mana, but then you can't attack with the leviathan.
21:01:31 <b_jonas> yes, it's probably irrelevant
21:01:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: why not? you can sacrifice two tapped islands
21:01:54 <b_jonas> the Leviathan is not one of those crazy cards like Karoo that eat only untapped ones
21:01:55 <shachaf> Ah, sure, I was thinking specifically for bloodrushing.
21:02:13 <shachaf> You can use the mana in your main phase.
21:02:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: You forgot to ask whether any cards were face-down.
21:03:13 <zzo38> If they were, they would be marked as such.
21:03:55 <zzo38> Any relevant effects opponent played that would have lasted during your turn would also be mentioned if there are any.
21:04:12 <zzo38> As well as cards controlled by players other than their owner.
21:04:30 <b_jonas> ok, so you could get either UUUUUUC, or UUGGGC and use the Hack to turn the Forest to an Island.
21:04:40 <b_jonas> and attack with the Leviathan
21:05:53 <shachaf> How can you turn the Forest to an Island?
21:06:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: you have a Magical Hack in your hand, cast that for U
21:06:14 <b_jonas> after you've tapped the Forest for GGG
21:06:22 <zzo38> O, so it says you can do that; I didn't know that.
21:06:37 <b_jonas> it changes the type line too
21:06:44 <shachaf> Oh, it changes the type line too.
21:06:55 <b_jonas> just like Artificial Evolution
21:06:59 <shachaf> I thought "text" meant "text box".
21:07:01 <zzo38> Nevertheless I do not see how it would help here.
21:07:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: huh, why not? I might want to spend the green mana on a card I draw
21:07:44 <zzo38> Yes, on a card you draw it might help.
21:08:11 <zzo38> (Such as a green one)
21:08:56 <shachaf> Green mana would help with a green card.
21:12:14 <b_jonas> unless you do something like destroying all lands, you only have one turn, because the opponent can win next turn with his 15 mana.
21:14:04 <b_jonas> ok, so Wormwood Treefolk would save you, because you just cast it and attack with haste.
21:16:47 <zzo38> I added a card to opponent's side I forgot about.
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21:23:10 <zzo38> So Wormwood Treefolk is one of them yes, but what other cards do you think are possible to use in this way?
21:23:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm looking, I just don't know The Dark so it takes a while
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21:27:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: any of Eater of the Dead, Murk Dwellers would save you by just attacking. Electric Eel saves you as well because you can pay for its ability with the Prism. Mind Bomb saves you by dealing 3 damage.
21:28:24 <b_jonas> Funnily, Giant Shark doesn't seem to be able to save you, because it doesn't get along with the Leviathan well (genre differences).
21:39:27 <zzo38> Yes I can see that.
21:39:37 <b_jonas> Angry Mob, Diabolic Machine saves you by attacking.
21:40:22 <b_jonas> Cleansing comes close to saving you, but it lets the opponent keep two of his lands and I have the feeling he can still pull off some combo with just one drawn card and two lands.
21:41:41 <zzo38> Remember also the card opponent draws during his next turn may be from any set!
21:42:54 <b_jonas> Yes, he certainly can: keep two islands, draw into Ideas Unbound, he draws a Simian Spirit Guide, a Lightning Axe, and one irrelevant card, plays the Axe and kills you
21:43:42 <b_jonas> two lands and one card are definitely enough, there are probably crazier combos than that because he could theoretically draw two Black Lotuses with Ideas Unbound
21:44:22 <b_jonas> ok, maybe not _two_ Black Lotuses, but at least one
21:45:11 <b_jonas> so Cleansing doesn't work in theory
21:48:53 <zzo38> He can defeat you even with just one card. Note that it only says the number of cards in your library is a maximum; you might have only one card. Therefore, he can defeat you with Ancestral Recall.
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21:49:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can't say that. if there's no minimum count in my library, I might lose right now because I can't draw.
21:50:22 <zzo38> Well, I fixed that.
21:51:25 <b_jonas> I think Apprentice Wizard saves you: it has haste because of the Crossroads, attack with the Leviathan, activate the Wizard's ability with the mana from Birds of Paradise, filter two of the mana through the Prism, and activate the bloodrush
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21:52:13 <b_jonas> similarly, Elves of Deep Shadow saves you because together with the Bird it gives you enough mana to bloodrush
21:52:36 <b_jonas> Gaea's Touch saves you because it lets you put both lands in play
21:52:50 <b_jonas> and also because it gives you extra mana
21:54:14 <b_jonas> Sisters of the Flame doesn't seem to save you, sadly, because you can't get three red mana and still have two islands
21:54:43 <b_jonas> oh right, Fellwar Stones saves you too, using bloodrush (duh)
21:56:59 <b_jonas> you could play the Magical Hack on the Leviathan, but that doesn't help you much (unless you use Gaea's Touch in which case you win without that anyway)
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22:28:49 <zzo38> Will Brainwash help?
22:30:33 <coppro> you guys all owe me one
22:30:49 <coppro> someone annoying is in another channel trying to design a language
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22:30:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see how it would help.
22:30:54 <coppro> I nearly referred him here
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22:31:39 <zzo38> I think it allows you to exploit rule 508.1h (someone told me you aren't required to stop using mana abilities once you have enough mana)
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22:36:25 <oerjan> <Taneb> Well, that went OK <-- congratulationas
22:36:52 <Taneb> oerjan, I went into the exam expecting to not be able to answer a single question.
22:37:01 <Taneb> I put at least something down for every question
22:39:02 <Taneb> So, I'm happy with it
22:39:13 <Taneb> I mean, I'm not going to do *great*
22:39:34 <Taneb> shachaf, Vision and Graphics
22:39:47 <oerjan> <J_Arcane> Wow. I don't even understand this one: http://www.codewars.com/kata/reviews/5418c2901d3bf380da00025c/groups/5423adab48306ff68700045f <-- login required
22:40:02 <Taneb> Or, for me, Make Sure You Go To Lectures Otherwise You Will Not Know What Is Going On
22:40:03 <myname> oerjan: he posted it later
22:40:06 <J_Arcane> oerjan: sorry about that. I reposted the code in the channel shortly after.
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22:40:53 <oerjan> shachaf, vision and graphics sounds like a difficult subject
22:41:15 <myname> oerjan: you can explain the return there for me if you like
22:42:14 <Taneb> It was a poorly structured module, all agree. It was quite broad for a 10 (out of 120 for the year) credit module
22:44:27 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I don't feel bad for not having thought of that solution, but I was a bit sad I didn't think of the mutually recursive one I saw elsewhere.
22:45:41 <oerjan> Taneb: reminds me of my (only obligatory non-science course in university) philosophy exam. i think i went to a single lecture. also the subject had 3 parts, one of which was personal choice of sub-subject. i met to the exam completely unprepared on that third part, looked at one of the alternatives instead which was "explain the structure of the universe" and wrote up a line from quarks to expansion. not knowing whether that was even what ...
22:45:47 <oerjan> ... the question meant in that context. it went well.
22:46:21 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I feel like that whenever someone tries to talk to me in Finnish.
22:46:25 <shachaf> oerjan: Only one obligatory non-science course in university?
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22:46:43 <J_Arcane> Except imagine if you'd had a grade school education in physics too...
22:47:00 <oerjan> shachaf: yep. it's not "broad education" like in america, you specialize from first year.
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22:48:49 <Vorpal> elliott, thanks for the link to sslh. I found sshttpd ages ago though, which does the same for ssh and https only (enough for my needs=
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22:50:14 <Vorpal> Hm I might have tried sslh since it was packaged for debian apparently. But I guess it didn't work?
22:51:48 <Vorpal> Oh yeah I think I couldn't get the transparent proxying to work, so that the source IP is correct for the server (I have it working with sshttpd though)
22:53:13 <oerjan> myname: read requires a String, which is a list of Chars, so read . return means use the return that comes from the list monad. for that, return x = [x].
22:53:43 <oerjan> so it basically means, turn a single digit Char into an Integer.
22:55:06 <myname> i didn't thought of the string requirement
22:55:50 <oerjan> shachaf: or at least it _was_ that way back when i graduated. these days they've pan-europeanized things into bachelor and master degrees, i dunno what else changes that means.
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23:09:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 072300Z 28014KT 10SM DRSN FEW020 SCT040 BKN060 M22/M27 A3017 RMK SC1SC2SC2 SLP220
23:09:49 <lambdabot> ENVA 072250Z 14008KT 100V190 CAVOK 05/M04 Q0994 RMK WIND 670FT 17015G28KT
23:09:49 <boily> fungot damn it's cold outside.
23:09:49 <fungot> boily: there's even an emacs interface to s48 1.1)
23:10:10 <oerjan> boily: i've told you, you need to change nick to freezy hth
23:10:22 <oerjan> or maybe you weren't actually present
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23:46:45 <zzo38> I now made a list of thirteen cards to solve my puzzle. Someone else gave me this list, but they included Giant Shark and omitted Elves of Deep Shadow. They did include Brainwash though.
23:48:50 <vanila> did you get my earlier message? unrelated to cards
23:52:41 <zzo38> What earlier message? I don't see one
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23:55:27 <vanila> well i was just sayin i wrote a gopher server in mirage/ocaml
23:55:33 <vanila> not sure if its interesting to you but anyway
00:02:48 <zzo38> Post it somewhere anyways
00:02:58 <zzo38> I can look at it if you want
00:03:01 <zzo38> So can other people
00:03:16 <vanila> oh you don't have to! I only mentioned it in case you interested
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01:58:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41623&oldid=41622 * Superdave * (+4) C = has already been visited (not "not")
02:10:04 <vanila> it would be hard to self hosting compile brainfuck to assembly/bytecode
02:10:12 <vanila> even ignoring the bitwise operations
02:10:16 <vanila> you have to do it in two passes
02:10:27 <pikhq> But not impossible.
02:10:33 <vanila> one to compile brainfuck into a intermediate assembly language with labels
02:10:51 <vanila> then a second pass to actually assemble that into binary (making the labels into numbers)
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02:18:58 <tswett> Here, have one of those stupid riddles.
02:19:10 <tswett> What do you call a topological space that has the property that a set is open if and only if it is closed?
02:19:53 <tswett> The answer is only two words, the first one being an indefinite article.
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03:02:12 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/commit/4695e20f12314480296335b178a8a0917c261608
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03:04:15 <vanila> J_Arcane, are you hoping for some feedback or anything?
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03:04:48 <J_Arcane> vanila: naw. just screwing around. hoped it might be amusing.
03:06:16 <elliott> is that Y actual Y or just any old fixed point combinator?
03:06:27 <J_Arcane> also, apparently git eats whitespace in commit messages.
03:07:36 <J_Arcane> Yes. IT is the actual strict Y combinator.
03:08:19 <elliott> does (def fix (fn (f) (let ([g (fn (x) ((f g) x))]) g))) work?
03:08:42 <elliott> or (def fix (fn (f) (fn (x) ((f (fix f)) x))))
03:08:47 <J_Arcane> I think so, yes. We tried it once, I still have it kicking around in another file. I dunno if it'd work with fnlet.
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05:05:02 <zzo38> I think I fixed "Triangle of Protection". Now it says "Enchanted permanent cannot be sacrificed unless an ability of that permanent allows or forces it to be sacrificed, except as the cost of an activated ability in which case that ability is unusable."
05:06:07 <zzo38> Actually, I made one more change to clarify it; now it says "causes" instead of "allows or forces".
05:08:55 <shachaf> What was the previous phrasing?
05:09:25 <shachaf> What's the goal of that card?
05:14:47 <int-e> ... unless ..., except ...
05:17:22 <int-e> zzo38: is it intended that the permanent cannot be sacrificed as a cost of one of its own activated abilities? because that's how I'd read that.
05:18:42 <zzo38> Its previous phasing deleted everything after the first "sacrificed".
05:19:14 <zzo38> It is intended that it cannot be sacrificed to pay for one of its own activated abilities.
05:25:02 <zzo38> Actually "that ability is unusable" is wrong; if it is an artifact and it says "sacrifice an artifact" it is only supposed to prevent you from activating it by sacrificing itself.
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05:26:03 <zzo38> I fixed that too now.
05:42:51 <zzo38> Enchanted permanent cannot be sacrificed unless an ability of that permanent causes it to be sacrificed, but still cannot be sacrificed as the cost of an activated ability on that permanent or anything else.
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07:05:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41624&oldid=41601 * Gamemanj * (+0) /* Announcements */ (Sorry, I messed up the year! I'd forgotten about ~~~~,sorry...)
07:10:11 <vanila> has anyone made a bytepusher system with a FPGA?
07:12:29 <zzo38> I don't know, but it might be more difficult that it could have been, since instructions do not have to be aligned.
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09:15:46 <Jafet> > let isP b n = (\x -> x == reverse x) $ showIntAtBase b toEnum n "" in all (`isP` 392629621582222667733213907054116073) [2,3]
09:16:03 <Jafet> > let showB b n = showIntAtBase b toEnum n "" in map (`showB` 392629621582222667733213907054116073) [2,3]
09:16:04 <lambdabot> ["\SOH\NUL\NUL\SOH\NUL\SOH\SOH\SOH\NUL\NUL\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\NUL\NUL\NUL\SOH\N...
09:16:17 <Jafet> > let showB b n = showIntAtBase b (toEnum.(+48)) n "" in map (`showB` 392629621582222667733213907054116073) [2,3]
09:16:18 <lambdabot> ["10010111001111000100010100010100000011011011000101011011100000111011010100...
09:16:50 <Jafet> (found a new entry for http://oeis.org/A060792 .)
09:27:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: sadly, Dust to Dust doesn't seem to save you because you don't have enough colored mana to cast it and then cast Pyrewild Shaman
09:28:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was thinking on that "cannot sacrifice" effect. I think I can tell what my problem is with now, but what's the current text you're using?
09:29:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: my problem is that it can easily cause infinite loops with permanents that have triggered abilities to sacrifice it, such as islandhome ones like Dandan
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09:33:20 <b_jonas> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt => "Enchanted permanent cannot be sacrificed unless an ability of that
09:33:24 <b_jonas> permanent causes it to be sacrificed, but still cannot be sacrificed as
09:33:28 <b_jonas> the cost of an activated ability on that permanent or anything else."
09:33:36 <b_jonas> that's better, but I still don't really like it
09:36:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: but that now seems much weaker, because it can no longer save your Ball Lightning
09:37:00 <b_jonas> nor your vanishing creatures or creatures with echo or your Krosan Cloudscraper
09:39:17 <zzo38> That's true, of course and is intentional to make it not too much powerful.
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09:40:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: as you added fair duel, let me mention two other cards I've been thinking of.
09:41:56 <b_jonas> name: Lost Self-esteem. cost: 1W. type: Enchantment - Aura. abilities: Enchant creature. All objects and players have protection from enchanted creature.
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09:46:50 <b_jonas> name: Vain Mary. cost: G. type: Creature - Bird Wizard 2/2. abilities: Flying. When you control a creature that has greater power than Vain Mary, sacrifice Vain Mary.
09:47:45 <zzo38> Perhaps Triangle of Protection is better to have flash?
09:48:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe, but even then it won't save your evokes creatures because they're self-sacrificed
09:49:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: in any case, this won't save you from a Cruel Edict unless you Triangle all your creatures, right?
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09:51:45 <zzo38> However you can cast it on an opponent's card and then use Cruel Edict and you can force them not to sacrifice a particular card. Or, since it now has flash, save a single of your own cards from All Is Dust, or if they are using it to try to get rid of one of their own cards, cast it on their card.
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09:58:57 <zzo38> O, and this Triangle will protect a creature from being sacrificed at the end of your turn due to Apprentice Necromancer.
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10:02:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and you can use it on a Kiki-Jiki-made copy
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10:09:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, have you removed cards from the puzzle?
10:09:42 <b_jonas> I thought there were two more cards in your hand
10:11:00 <b_jonas> but I guess it's better this way.
10:19:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: Altar of Defense seems to be a bit expensive compared to Ashnod's Altar.
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10:27:19 <zzo38> You are right I fixed it
10:29:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, now that's more interesting. what gives lots of creatures defender, besides Dormant Sliver?
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10:32:51 <b_jonas> mind you, I'd be more happy with more good defenders. there are already cards that do useful stuff with defenders.
10:35:33 <zzo38> I made up Wall of Ninjas, which has haste, defender, ninjutsu, first strike, "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player discards 2 cards.", and "{BB}, {Q}: Target player discards a card."
10:37:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and a Wall of Attachment
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10:41:10 <b_jonas> Mad Counterspell seems too powerful, it's more better than an ordinary Counterspell (though probably worse than Mana Leak)
10:41:41 <zzo38> It is a sorcery; you cannot normally cast it as it would have no target.
10:42:17 <zzo38> However maybe the madness cost could be changed to one more if necessary I don't know?
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10:46:56 <zzo38> I believe madness is also a way to get priority during the cleanup step if you have too many cards.
10:47:30 <zzo38> You can exile it temporarily without casting it.
10:51:50 <zzo38> (This exiling it temporarily might be useful for other purposes too, maybe)
10:51:59 <b_jonas> but you have to set up having too many cards for that, which isn't so easy, except at the start of the game or when you're about to win, when you no longer need that kind of trick
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10:52:28 <b_jonas> I rarely have too many cards in my cleanup step
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10:54:40 <zzo38> Yes I know that, but it is usable with any card that has madness. Probably, usually is not so useful but sometimes it might.
11:00:14 <b_jonas> Mystery Tablet might be unplayable in casual play where you have no sideboard and Wish cards use your entire collection
11:00:56 <b_jonas> What does "If you do, put this card with your
11:03:26 <zzo38> It assumes that you are playing with a sideboard rather than your entire collection. I just don't like that "entire collection" stuff.
11:03:42 <zzo38> It means it becomes part of your sideboard.
11:04:23 <b_jonas> oh, you mean "Put Mystery Tablet to your sideboard."?
11:04:44 <b_jonas> and if your sideboard is empty, this card does nothing?
11:05:31 <zzo38> Yes, although it still spend 1 mana and becomes tapped.
11:08:18 <zzo38> It means the same thing as a card you own from "outside the game", but I don't want people to play that way and prefer that it always means your sideboard even in a casual game.
11:10:09 <b_jonas> as for Suppress Quality, is it deliberate that it doesn't block abilities of players? I think players can have protection or hexproof these days.
11:13:12 <zzo38> No, although it also wasn't really meant to. Although it probably should; mainly I just forgot.
11:13:36 <zzo38> Well, now I changed it so that it does.
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12:19:12 <lambdabot> CYUL 081200Z 23007KT 15SM FEW010 FEW065 M26/M30 A3023 RMK SF1SC2 SF TR SLP242
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12:19:52 <J_Phone> `let fibseq n = take n $ iterate (\(a,b) -> (b,a+b)) (0,1) in fibseq 10
12:19:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: let: not found
12:21:00 <Jafet> > iterate (\(a,b) -> (b,a+b)) (0,1)
12:21:02 <lambdabot> [(0,1),(1,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,5),(5,8),(8,13),(13,21),(21,34),(34,55),(55,89),...
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15:40:32 <oerjan> when you think about it this is pretty badass "Hollerith built machines under contract for the Census Office, which used them to tabulate the 1890 census in only one year.[9] The previous 1880 census had taken eight years."
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15:46:59 <oerjan> "The term "Super Computing" was used by the New York World newspaper in 1931 to refer to a large custom-built tabulator that IBM made for Columbia University."
15:49:46 <int-e> how many human calculators did it replace?
15:51:11 <oerjan> the reference is http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/packard.html
15:52:41 <oerjan> "Watson obliged, and had engineers James Bryce and George Daly in IBM's Endicott plant build a gigantic tabulator capable of accumulating sums of squares, raising numbers to powers, and so forth by means of direct subtraction (the first punched-card machine to do this) plus a novel system of ten paired accumulators."
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15:53:44 <int-e> "New statistical machines with the mental power of 100 skilled mathematicians in solving even highly complex algebraic problems were demonstrated yesterday for the first time before a group of psychologists, educational research workers and statisticians in the laboratories of the Columbia University Statistical Bureau in Hamilton Hall." <-- there's a number
15:54:14 <int-e> a machine that replaces 100 computers is a supercomputer all right.
15:58:23 <mroman> I thought it replaces mathematicians
15:58:33 <mroman> must suck to be a useless mathematician in the near future .
16:00:19 <oerjan> mroman: i suspect they didn't distinguish mathematicians and human computers much at that time. heck many people don't know the difference even now.
16:02:31 <oerjan> i presume back then the majority of human mathematical work _was_ calculation.
16:02:32 <lambdabot> *** "reckoner" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
16:02:36 <lambdabot> n 1: an expert at calculation (or at operating calculating
16:02:38 <lambdabot> machines) [syn: {calculator}, {reckoner}, {figurer},
16:02:42 <lambdabot> 2: a handbook of tables used to facilitate computation [syn:
16:02:59 <fizzie> (@wn should have a syntax for referring to a particular sense of a word, computer#n#2 or something. If it doesn't.)
16:03:35 <fizzie> WordNet itself has something that looks vaguely like that, at least in some contexts.
16:04:54 <oerjan> perhaps there's an api
16:15:08 <oerjan> the original hollerith machine used mercury "The card sat over pools of mercury, pools corresponding to the possible hole positions in the card. When the wires were pressed onto the card, punched holes allowed wires to dip into the mercury pools, making an electrical contact[5] [6] that could be used for counting, sorting, and setting off a bell to let the operator know the card had been read."
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16:40:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41625&oldid=41615 * GermanyBoy * (+11) /* I */ iexp
16:49:30 <Gregor> `fromroman Quantum autem noluit marmota monax?
16:50:26 <Deewiant> `fromroman QVANTVM AVTEM NVLUIT MARMOTA MONAX
16:51:36 <J_Arcane> needs Google translate hooks. ;)
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17:20:28 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think you might have better luck with toroman, that accepts more invalid input
17:20:56 <Taneb> I always get D and L mixed up :/
17:22:05 <shachaf> Taneb: D comes after C hth
17:22:11 <Taneb> shachaf, so does L!
17:22:16 <Taneb> And I! and V! and X!
17:22:21 <shachaf> D comes immediately after C hth
17:24:13 <b_jonas> L is the lower half of C, V is the upper half of X
17:24:34 <b_jonas> that's why I use a program to convert rather than try in my head
17:24:46 <b_jonas> but I should fix toroman to reject invalid input
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19:17:43 <Taneb> ais523, what's the origin of scarf as an alt nick?
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19:23:39 <Taneb> Makes sense, I guess
19:26:20 <Taneb> I could do with a scarf
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19:33:39 <Taneb> Well, I just had a long-overdue nick-cull
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22:45:30 <oerjan> <Gregor> `fromroman Quantum autem noluit marmota monax? <-- i am deeply suspicious of that sentence, even disregarding the silly binominal species name
22:46:51 <Gregor> oerjan: I asked Google.
22:47:04 <oerjan> yes, google seems to think it makes sense
22:47:21 <oerjan> but i think someone's been tricking it
22:48:00 <oerjan> the fact that "quantum autem noluit" gives no google hits _outside_ google translate should be a hint.
22:49:04 <oerjan> afaict it means something like "how much too it refused", prime john cleese material
22:49:59 <Gregor> So, what SHOULD it be, Cap'n Lat'n?
22:52:40 <oerjan> some googling turns up "Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?"
22:53:49 <oerjan> i don't think that's an exact translation either
22:54:03 <oerjan> but it's got nice alliteration
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22:55:30 <oerjan> oh hm it's better that i thought, materia actually has a "timber" meaning
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22:56:59 <oerjan> the verbed form i cannot find on wiktionary though.
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00:02:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41626&oldid=41365 * Scoppini * (+368) Added XRF
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00:48:32 <ais523> oh, btw, I think XRF is a really interesting language
00:48:36 <ais523> at least the general concept
00:48:39 <ais523> not sure about the actual implementation
00:53:09 <tswett> I'm wondering if, for every point x in a topological space, there exists a countable collection C of open subsets of the space such that every open set containing x is a subset of all of the elements of C.
00:53:16 <tswett> I'm leaning towards no.
00:53:56 <tswett> Pretty sure it's true in every topological space with a countable basis. You can just let C be all the basis sets containing x, right?
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00:57:56 <tswett> Replace "collection C of open subsets of the space" with "collection C of open subsets of the space which contain x".
00:58:19 <shachaf> The empty set still works?
00:58:28 <tswett> What about the empty set?
00:59:10 <shachaf> It always works as C. Doesn't it?
00:59:16 <tswett> Ah, let C be the empty collection.
00:59:26 <tswett> Uh, I made another mistake somewhere.
00:59:41 <tswett> Okay, let me try yet again.
01:00:49 <tswett> For every topological space S, for every point x in S, there exists a countable collection C of neighborhoods of x, such that for every open set A, if A is a subset of every element of C, then A contains x.
01:07:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elyg * New user account
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01:18:15 <HackEgo> Orianny: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:18:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenir: not found
01:19:04 <tswett> Is "bienvenir" even a word?
01:19:10 <tswett> Can you "bienvenir" someone?
01:19:16 <HackEgo> Orianny: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
01:19:28 <tswett> But how do we know whether Orianny is an -o or an -a?
01:19:34 <tswett> We'd better also do the other one, just in case.
01:19:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenida: not found
01:19:42 <tswett> I guess that answers the question.
01:19:58 <tswett> Bienvenido/a, como estas?
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01:20:28 <tswett> Yo si hablo espanol, pero sin los acentos porque mi... como se dice "my keyboard sucks" en espanol?
01:22:56 <Orianny> que bueno y de donde eres ?
01:26:28 <tswett> De Michigan, en los Estados Unidos.
01:27:18 <tswett> (Which United States? The United Mexican States? No, the United States of America. Which United States of America? The United Mexican States of America? No, the OTHER United States of America.)
01:28:45 <Orianny> como es todo haya donde vives ?
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02:05:00 <oerjan> tswett: let S be an uncountable set with the topology that a subset is open iff its complement is countable. let A = { y | y in O forall O in C, x /= y }. then A is open.
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02:06:08 <oerjan> @tell tswett let S be an uncountable set with the topology that a subset is open iff its complement is countable. let A = { y | y in O forall O in C, x /= y }. then A is open.
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02:20:21 <int-e> @tell tswett You could also take the empty set for A (probably not intended), which is open but does not contain x.
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02:20:45 <oerjan> i noticed that, but come on
02:24:39 <int-e> oerjan: why don't you try to do Kimariji sideways?
02:26:46 <lambdabot> "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
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02:28:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esowiki201529A * New user account
02:29:48 <int-e> hmm "Esowiki", does that string appear on the site?
02:30:28 <vanila> > 'W' : repeat 'A' ++ "T"
02:30:29 <lambdabot> "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
02:30:33 <int-e> As far as I can see quickly, it seems to say "Esolang" everywhere...
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02:31:10 <int-e> (The question is whether the name "Esowiki201529A" involved any human interaction. It might...)
02:31:34 <oerjan> i was thinking similar thoughts
02:33:25 <oerjan> i find two mentions in talk pages
02:34:17 <int-e> Oh well, I'd wait for the first edit. We're odd people after all :)
02:35:11 <int-e> (And I'm saying that as somebody who's refusing to make a wiki account.)
02:41:43 <int-e> Hmm, let me make up a reason... Because I want to improve the reputation of "IPs".
02:43:42 <vanila> wwhat is the real reason
02:51:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41627 * Esowiki201529A * (+66) Created page with "#REDIRECT [http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1517]"
02:51:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41628&oldid=41627 * Esowiki201529A * (+2) Redirected page to [[Http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1517]]
02:53:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41629&oldid=41628 * Esowiki201529A * (-12)
02:54:05 <vanila> that isnt a very high quality page :/
02:55:25 <int-e> not the usual spam either.
02:55:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41630&oldid=41629 * Esowiki201529A * (+73)
02:56:26 <vanila> LLL is an esotiric programming with logic circuits.
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02:56:54 <int-e> but LLLL is a set of CA rules?
02:57:28 <oerjan> the forum link looks good though. i wonder if that's lode vandevenne - oh right the new link goes to his site
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02:59:49 <int-e> vanila: oh I missed the typo.
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03:20:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Esowiki201529A * moved [[111]] to [[Binary:111]]
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03:35:21 <vanila> http://lodev.org/ he has 4 esolangs
03:35:58 <int-e> doesn't explain that move...
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03:42:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary:111]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41633&oldid=41631 * Esowiki201529A * (+7) It called "binary:111"
03:51:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[قلب]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41634&oldid=41446 * Esowiki201529A * (+39) This is not english based programming language
03:54:10 <vanila> can you pleaes ban this asshole?
03:54:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41635&oldid=41630 * 213.162.68.166 * (+396) stubify
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04:00:21 <int-e> Oh well. The LLLL edits were bad, but at least not obviously ill-intentioned. But the other three edits... :-(
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04:44:43 <int-e> vanila: you make it sound so urgent
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05:04:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ehird * moved [[Binary:111]] to [[111]] over redirect: I know what my own language is called
05:04:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[قلب]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41637&oldid=41634 * Ehird * (-39) Undo revision 41634 by [[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]] ([[User talk:Esowiki201529A|talk]]) non-english languages are perfectly welcome here, and those templates don't even exist
05:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41638 * Ehird * (+344) /* Disruptive edits */ new section
05:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[111]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41639&oldid=41636 * Ehird * (-7) Undo revision 41633 by [[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]] ([[User talk:Esowiki201529A|talk]])
05:08:09 <elliott> int-e: thanks, I missed that one
05:08:31 <elliott> it's hard to warn people when I don't understand their actions at all
05:09:57 <int-e> Btw, note that the page as created by Esowiki201529A consisted of two uncommented links.
05:10:56 <elliott> yeah but they're on-topic, so.
05:11:33 <vanila> Its probably just a trick
05:11:35 <elliott> I'd guess they're not actually trying to be actively malicious, so whatever
05:11:52 <vanila> do a pretend contribution to hide your bad action
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05:12:15 <int-e> elliott: anyway, thanks for taking action
05:12:27 <elliott> if they keep doing it I'll block
05:12:41 <elliott> but they're probably just a kid messing around, I think
05:12:42 <glguy> It's not my thing, so do whatever, but the stuff that scrolled by earlier looked more misguided than malicious
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05:15:32 <int-e> glguy: The thing I didn't get was that the LLLL edits looked like they were made by somebody who didn't know what wikis are for (though they read up about mediawiki syntax), but the other three edits were enforcing some imaginary policy. That's inconsistent.
05:16:32 <int-e> But I'm probably thinking about this too much.
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05:18:16 <elliott> I don't think it's worth worrying about too much. it's clear they're not some evil mastermind destroying the wiki with their cunning plan. my experience (and my own behaviour on the internet when I was a kid) suggest that it's just someone overly-eager who wants to be making edits and doing things to the wiki but doesn't really have much in the way of contributions to do that with, and who doesn't entire
05:18:22 <elliott> ly understand the rudeness of randomly changing other people's languages or whatever.
05:18:32 <elliott> it is annoying though but eh, I reverted it all in a few clicks anyway
05:19:31 <zzo38> They must have misunderstood some things
05:20:12 <vanila> they're not some evil mastermind destroying the wiki with their cunning plan <----- How do you know? This could only be the beginning
05:21:07 <elliott> when they assassinate me, invade canada and seize the server running the wiki, that's when to start worrying
05:21:42 <zzo38> Yes, although if they were trying to do that, there would be better ways of doing that.
05:21:58 <elliott> anyway if the wiki can handle NSQX it can handle this :p
05:22:07 <elliott> okay it couldn't handle NSQX. but.
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05:25:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41640&oldid=41635 * 213.162.68.166 * (+23) Category:Languages (why do we have a category that encompasses 2/3 of the wiki?)
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05:53:51 <vanila> what programming languages havea regular language syntax
05:54:04 <vanila> just stack and assembly ones?
05:54:15 <zzo38> Now I made up one artifact card with "Graft 0, Unleash, Undying, Echo {0}" abilities.
05:54:52 <zzo38> vanila: I don't know? There probably are others.
05:55:20 <vanila> its rare to have a language which is regular
05:55:25 <vanila> because people like brackets
05:55:57 <zzo38> Yes, although not all programming languages have brackets.
05:56:16 <zzo38> Also, some assemblers use brackets too (for expressions, usually)
05:56:35 <vanila> hopefully they only have a set depth
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06:05:45 <Jafet> Well, you can say that the syntax of commentless brainfuck is [][+-<>,.]*, which is regular
06:07:13 <zzo38> No the brackets have to match
06:07:17 <vanila> im discounting brainfuck
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06:11:39 <int-e> BF with nesting depth 2 should be enough for everybody ;-)
06:15:23 <Jafet> What's the minimum depth for tc
06:18:34 <int-e> Well, 2 is my bet.
06:23:13 <vanila> http://dynamicdev.net/Twit
06:27:15 <Jafet> Oh that's right, /// is regular.
06:29:42 <Jafet> int-e: you may be interested to know that 392629621582222667733213907054116073 is a base {2,3} palindrome
06:31:08 <FireFly> Is it the shortest possible non-single-digit base {2,3} palindrome
06:31:25 <zzo38> I was wondering the same thing; I want to know too
06:31:45 <Jafet> No, but it's larger than those listed http://oeis.org/A060792
06:32:50 <FireFly> "Next term (if it exists) is greater than 3^66." well, that covers the "if it exists" part, at least
06:34:00 <vanila> did you write an efficient program to find it?
06:35:02 <Jafet> That took about a day to find
06:35:08 <int-e> Jafet: hmm, mixed based palindromes are not currently on my agenda, but thanks.
06:35:26 <int-e> (I'm interested, but don't have the time)
06:36:57 <lambdabot> LOWI 090620Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW080 SCT300 M05/M06 Q1032 NOSIG
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06:41:09 <int-e> Jafet: is this the first term greater than 3^66?
06:41:25 <Jafet> Assuming the program is correct, it should be
06:42:27 <vanila> i wwas just wondering what kind of optimizations were used in a search for that type of number
06:43:46 <int-e> vanila: there's this link: http://chesswanks.com/txt/BigDualPalindromes.txt
06:44:58 <Jafet> Yes, except I didn't have enough RAM, so I sorted the lookup table on disk
06:46:09 <int-e> So, hmm. To find N, one needs O(N^(1/4)) time and memory, with possible trade off (M memory and T should work for MT = O(N^(1/2)))
06:46:30 <int-e> provided that M<T, and ignoring logarithmic factors.
06:47:26 * int-e gives up on speling and grammer.
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07:49:47 <Sgeo> Help I think I might like a compiles-to-Javascript language more than a native compiled language that it's mostly copying from
07:51:27 <zzo38> Might it be better to just one but with multiple compiling target backends?
07:51:50 <Sgeo> "PureScript does not provide this rule, so it is necessary to either
07:51:51 <Sgeo> omit the operator: runST do ..."
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07:52:16 <Sgeo> I thought the reason everyone uses $ there in Haskell is because it's necessary. So if it's not necessary in Purescript, that seems like a good thing
07:52:23 <vanila> Sgeo, interactively re-engineer excellent leadership skills objectively evolve functionalized value authoritatively generate extensible web services credibly aggregate parallel deliverables
07:52:50 <Sgeo> zzo38: but I don't care about compiling to Javascript. I do care that this language seems better
07:55:01 <zzo38> Neither do I, but that doesn't affect what makes it better and how to fix it by using multiple compiling target backends so that it doesn't have to be Javascripts.
07:55:51 <vanila> http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html "fungibly" is an enterprise word apparently
07:57:05 <int-e> vanila: Oh yeah? ... You call yourself a pirate?
08:10:36 <b_jonas> 'I made up one artifact card with "Graft 0, Unleash, Undying, Echo {0}" abilities.' -- that sounds like an un-card, because the combination of abilities probably actually make sense but it's quite opaque what they are doing
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08:13:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Maybe, but I like to try making up these kind of things
08:13:54 <zzo38> (Note that the card isn't a creature; it is a non-creature artifact. That doesn't prevent the abilities from working, though.)
08:14:34 <zzo38> Can you see what they are doing?
08:14:37 <b_jonas> Jafet: if you know it's the least such number after 8022581057533823761829436662099 then submit that to the oeis for that entry
08:15:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: not really. I don't see why it has "Graft 0, Unleash" instead of just "Graft 1"
08:15:52 <fizzie> Today's randomly generated spam-filter avoidance block is funnier than usual.
08:15:54 <zzo38> You can choose not to use Unleash, don't you know that?
08:15:55 <fizzie> "Capel did not play football in 2000, while he was competing as a sprinter on the U. Ginty Lush won the toss and batted. Even after 50 years, the surface is still warm to the touch."
08:16:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but why would you do that? the artifact doesn't seem very useful if you don't get a counter on it
08:16:26 <fizzie> That must've been quite a batting.
08:16:46 <zzo38> If it has a counter on it then undying won't work.
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08:17:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: doesn't it work like this: you put it to play with a counter, then graft the counter to a creature that comes into play in your turn, then next turn you don't pay the echo so you get it back with a new counter and repeat
08:18:20 <b_jonas> if for some reason you had no creature come into play in your turn, you do pay the echo cost, so it's not a problem the undying doesn't work.
08:19:23 <zzo38> If you do pay the echo cost, then if you want to get rid of it later you have to do it in a different way because echo only works once.
08:19:59 <b_jonas> oh, you mean you want to sacrifice it to some ability to get it back with undying?
08:20:00 <int-e> so make it an upkeep cost
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08:20:39 <zzo38> int-e: Well, I don't want it like that; it is supposed to be sometimes it is difficult to use.
08:20:47 <b_jonas> mind you, I don't know many things that eat non-creature artifact sacrifices
08:21:28 <zzo38> (Also I just wanted to see what I could do with only keyword abilities)
08:23:14 <b_jonas> hmm, it seems there are a lot of cards that take artifact sacrifices
08:23:23 <zzo38> Yes, including Atog.
08:25:50 <b_jonas> Etherium Astrolabe, Ferrovore, Reshape, Shrapnel Blast.
08:26:20 <b_jonas> Mind you, I'm still not sure I'd use that artifact to sacrifice for these, rather than other artifacts, even if that thing costed only {2}.
08:27:31 <zzo38> This use of these keyword abilities can make it really tricky; there are several things both players can do with such thing. How much do you think it should cost anyways?
08:27:45 <b_jonas> no idea. I can't imagine this artifact really
08:27:58 <b_jonas> you see, there's at least one similar artifact that lets you put +1/+1 counters on creatures:
08:28:06 <b_jonas> and I think it's junk, useless
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08:31:13 <zzo38> Note that with my artifact, either player can do various things with the correct spells such as turning it into a creature to allow it to attack/block with +1/+1 per counter, sacrifice it to renew it, and various other things.
08:31:33 <zzo38> Also, Baton of Courage doesn't put +1/+1 counters on anything.
08:31:48 <b_jonas> sure, but if I want cheap artifacts, there are already lots of good ones that are already creatures
08:32:08 <b_jonas> why wouldn't I play those simple ones rather than any of these complicated non-creature artifacts that require tricks?
08:32:40 <int-e> It should be called "I don't care whether I win, I just want to keep the Judges busy."
08:33:08 <Jafet> I beat... the referee
08:33:11 <int-e> And become part of one of those joke card series.
08:33:13 <zzo38> It doesn't normally require tricks, unless you (or your opponent) is trying to do something tricky, isn't it?
08:33:42 <int-e> For extra fun, just put every keyword ability in the rule book on it.
08:34:05 <b_jonas> and if I want a cheap artifact I can play tricks with, then just take Shuko in the infinite life combo deck (you use it to target Daru Spiritualist or Task Force)
08:34:38 <zzo38> And sometimes, protect you if all artifacts are getting destroyed.
08:35:35 <b_jonas> well, no problem, I don't have to like every card
08:35:48 <zzo38> Yes, that's fine not everyone has to like everything
08:39:01 <b_jonas> maybe I'm prejudiced because any card that mentions +1/+1 counters never turns out to be as good as it seems
08:43:51 <zzo38> And I made up two non-creatures with ninjutsu. (I can guess what happens in such a case although I am not quite 100% sure.)
08:55:10 <Sgeo> 'Putting Elm on Node.js would totally defy it's purpose -- you probably want to use Haskell in that case.'
08:55:15 <Sgeo> :/ what if I prefer Elm
08:55:46 <Sgeo> Although apparently Elm is missing a whole bunch of stuff. Purescript probably isn't, but Purescript seems much less popular, and not as suited for front-end
08:56:11 <Sgeo> So, Javascript can go frontend or backend. Haskell-like languages that compile to Javascript have preferences for frontend vs backen
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09:49:49 <mroman> "Your mom has a hairy ballsack." -- Wikipedia
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10:55:29 <J_Arcane> Minecraft word processor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ULtNYRCbg
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11:17:16 <zzo38> "Enchanted artifact gains aura swap {2U}."
11:19:47 <Jafet> If all these people making redstone computers spent that time on actual computing we'd have a... (I'm trying to think of a computing theory analogue for "cancer cure")
11:27:00 <J_Arcane> Jafet: Apparently that took like two years to develop.
11:27:25 <J_Arcane> In less than that, Guy Steele prototyped a processor that ran Lisp natively...
11:29:41 <int-e> "what did you do today?" "I mined 63 nand gates"...
11:30:12 <Jafet> I wonder if they make all these things by hand
11:30:35 <elliott> they're almost certainly not doing any mining
11:31:32 <Jafet> https://github.com/cemulate/minecraft-hdl
11:31:34 * elliott doesn't see it as appreciably different from something like http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
11:32:47 <b_jonas> beware of people who use fancy latin numbers like "icositetrad" in casual conversatoin
11:33:07 <Jafet> Well, that type of computer actually existed
11:53:06 <boily> b_jellonas. is that 24?
11:54:57 <b_jonas> boily: I'm not sure, I don't want to understand the context
12:01:38 <Taneb> I think that's greek rather than latin
12:05:59 <boily> Δεν μιλάω Λατινικά, non verba graeca.
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12:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/HTML Code]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41641 * Esowiki201529A * (+5969) Created page with "<pre> <nowiki><html> <body> <h1>Two variable based language</h1> x: <input id="Var1" type="text" value="0" /> <br /> y: <input id="Var2"..."
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12:40:37 <Jafet> [[Category:Implemented]] imo
12:46:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/Example]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41642 * Esowiki201529A * (+227) Created page with "==[[Hello, World!]]== This program prints out the words ''Hello World!'': <pre>*++*$++$$++$$++$$++$$+g*g*$-g*$-*+*+*p$+2*2*$+*-*pg*g*$+*+*p*pg*$+*p*g2*2*$-*+*p$-*p*2*2$-g*g*$+..."
12:47:23 <int-e> I wonder whether the missing break between case "d*" and case "*f" is intentional.
12:49:38 <int-e> (of course, it almost certainly isn't. but with esoteric languages, every bug could be a feature.)
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12:51:16 <oren> d* then does v1 = (v2 = v1 / v2) / v1;
12:51:44 <oren> thus v1 = 1 / v2
12:52:10 <oren> and v2 = v1 / v2
12:52:12 <int-e> Yeah, so this line is a bit misleading ;-) : <pre style="width:100px" onclick="Var2.value = Math.floor(Var1.value / Var2.value); Coding.value += 'd*'">y = x / y</pre>
12:52:42 <oren> that is the intended behaviour i think
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12:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/Example]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41643&oldid=41642 * Esowiki201529A * (+56)
12:59:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/Example]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41644&oldid=41643 * Esowiki201529A * (+0)
13:13:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Test cyclic redirect]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41645 * Esowiki201529A * (+34) Redirected page to [[Test cyclic redirect]]
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14:50:19 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Baton of Courage <-- Bacon of Tourage
15:17:09 <oren> #define unt unsigned int
15:26:52 <int-e> oerjan: it's not worse than some of our puns ;-)
15:27:23 <oren> #define chur unsigned char
15:27:35 <int-e> oerjan: (I'm not sure who is the worse offender. Obviously your puns hurt me more than mine ;-) )
15:29:09 <oren> chur shurt unt lung
15:29:38 <int-e> so is a lungfish signed or unsigned?
15:30:35 <oerjan> i think it's a float hth
15:30:45 <oren> there should be unsigned floats
15:30:48 <int-e> hmm. unsigned floats...
15:31:33 <oren> that way we can use the extra bit for more exopnent
15:33:35 * oerjan is suddenly wondering if the freefall police chief is going to marry his mobility suit
15:33:44 <oren> anyway it would help because then sqrt(duublu x) would always be defined
15:34:00 <oerjan> it suddenly starts looking like a natural development
15:34:47 <oren> similarly double log(duublu)
15:36:39 <oren> actually, there should be a type for nonzero positive reals
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15:40:08 <oerjan> > until ((==0).(/2)) (/2) 1
15:44:10 <Jafet> > logBase 2 5e-324
15:46:12 <oerjan> > until (isInfinite.(*2)) (*2) 1
15:46:35 <oerjan> > logBase 2 $ until (isInfinite.(*2)) (*2) 1
15:47:25 <oren> ieee doubles. not even once
15:48:18 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){double d=5e-324;printf("%llx", d);}
15:48:48 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){double d=5e-324;printf("%llx", *(unsigned long long*)&d);}
15:50:20 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){double d=1e-323;printf("%llx", *(unsigned long long*)&d);}
15:54:21 <oren> ints are computer science, doubles are software engineering
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16:03:11 <b_jonas> no, that's not true. that's just what the people who don't understand doubles say.
16:04:37 <Jafet> "I met a girl who looked single precision but she turned out to be a long double"
16:08:09 <b_jonas> mroman: do you mean -1 or -Infinity?
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16:11:14 <mroman> can't increment infinity I see
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16:11:54 <Solace> Why would you want to increment that mroman
16:11:55 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (./) Invalid arguments!
16:11:55 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (\/) Stack size error!
16:12:34 <Solace> http://www.math.utah.edu/~pa/math/largeprime.html
16:12:47 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (fc) Invalid arguments!
16:12:51 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:13:02 <mroman> infinity has an integer representation o_O?
16:13:08 <blsqbot> | "179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350
16:13:12 <Solace> It has 17 million digits
16:13:19 <mroman> Infinity only has 309 digits
16:13:44 <mroman> whereas NaN has 310 digits
16:13:46 <blsqbot> | "-26965397022934738615939577861835371004269654684134598591014512173659901370825144469906271598361130403168017081980709003648818465322162493373927114595921118656665184013729822791445332940186914117917962442812750865325722602351369432221086966581124085574502
16:13:47 <oerjan> mroman: it's a side effect of how toInteger is implemented
16:14:20 <Solace> has 17 million digits I meab
16:14:23 <mroman> does that work the other way around?
16:14:31 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:14:40 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:14:44 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:15:27 <Solace> well the largest known prime number is bigger than a googolpleslx
16:16:03 <blsqbot> | {1797693134 8623159077 2930519078 9024733617 9769789423 657273430 811577326 7580550096 3132708477 3224075360 2112011387 9871393357 6587897688 1441662249 2847430639 4741243777 6789342486 5485276302 2196012460 9411945308 2952085005 7688381506 8234246288 1473
16:16:06 <Solace> 17 million digits so I guess its bigger than infinity
16:16:18 <blsqbot> | [Sh, "\n", 1797693134, "\n", Sh, "\n", 8623159077, "\n", Sh, "\n", 2930519078, "\n", Sh, "\n", 9024733617, "\n", Sh, "\n", 9769789423, "\n", Sh, "\n", 657273430, "\n", Sh, "\n", 811577326, "\n", Sh, "\n", 7580550096, "\n", Sh, "\n", 3132708477, "\n", Sh, "
16:16:21 <blsqbot> | {Sh "\n" 1797693134 "\n" Sh "\n" 8623159077 "\n" Sh "\n" 2930519078 "\n" Sh "\n" 9024733617 "\n" Sh "\n" 9769789423 "\n" Sh "\n" 657273430 "\n" Sh "\n" 811577326 "\n" Sh "\n" 7580550096 "\n" Sh "\n" 3132708477 "\n" Sh "\n" 3224075360 "\n" Sh "\n" 211201138
16:16:24 <blsqbot> | 1797693134 8623159077 2930519078 9024733617 9769789423 657273430 811577326 7580550096 3132708477 3224075360 2112011387 9871393357 6587897688 1441662249 2847430639 4741243777 6789342486 5485276302 2196012460 9411945308 2952085005 7688381506 8234246288 14739
16:16:28 <elliott> I'm pretty sure the largest known prime is smaller than a googolplex
16:16:35 <blsqbot> | 1797693134 8623159077 2930519078 9024733617 9769789423 657273430 811577326 7580550096 3132708477 3224075360 2112011387 9871393357 6587897688 1441662249 2847430639 4741243777 6789342486 5485276302 2196012460 9411945308 2952085005 7688381506 8234246288 14739
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16:16:46 <elliott> number of digits in the largest known prime: 17,425,170
16:16:52 <elliott> number of digits in a googolplex: 10^100
16:17:06 <mroman> does the number of digits somehow relate to how large it is?
16:17:19 <elliott> mroman: yes, it's called a logarithm :p
16:17:24 <Solace> Its pretty long I guess
16:17:40 <Solace> Can you divide a googolplex by 1 and itself?
16:17:41 <oerjan> Solace: you're missing that 13,466,917 needs to be a superscript, those don't work in irc
16:18:27 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:18:38 <mroman> !blsq 2 13466917?^ShL[
16:18:38 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:18:49 <Solace> A number bigger than googolplex
16:19:34 <blsqbot> | 109234465617278670000000000.0
16:19:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
16:19:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
16:19:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
16:19:57 <blsqbot> | 3082797582150960060825374875267347268164340029730999104571144467050608921920646339600877190335097751414114384294014195868765793932144959853414780122285826738123600051221442167845136851330457269511328374382842132795545699826316386656124236236324783660607200
16:20:11 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}11C!itShL[
16:20:13 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}110C!itShL[
16:20:13 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:20:16 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}15C!itShL[
16:20:16 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:20:21 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}13C!itShL[
16:20:32 <mroman> Solace: It's called Burlesque
16:20:34 <Solace> I ain't got time fo' dis
16:20:43 <mroman> the most evolved esolang there is
16:21:22 <mroman> you haven't seen how beautiful fibonacci is in it
16:22:06 <blsqbot> | {1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144}
16:22:46 <mroman> people say he has been admitted to a mental health institution though.
16:23:05 <Jafet> Do they have irc there
16:23:09 <oerjan> Solace: try graham's number hth
16:23:31 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
16:23:43 <mroman> but I actually got released this monday.
16:24:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: Romans on the loose | Home Alone 6: The horror of fungot | but often spelled correctly. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:24:30 <mroman> (but no: I was there by my own choice so it's not really admitted nor is it released.)
16:24:43 <J_Arcane> I can't believe I thought to run permutations to solve for anagrams before just trying sort ...
16:24:48 <oerjan> the technical term is "kicked out" hth
16:25:10 <mroman> It's more "I decided to leave"
16:25:24 <mroman> because I'm feeling much better now.
16:25:35 <J_Arcane> today is a day for leaving then. Congrats!
16:25:47 * J_Arcane escaped the cult ... I mean Finnish school ...
16:25:51 <Jafet> The burlesque website doesn't talk about "real word problems" as it claims, how disappointing
16:26:05 <mroman> Jafet: I'm sorry but it can't cure depression just yet.
16:26:09 <Solace> is mroman at an institute
16:26:45 <mroman> chronic depression since 6 years
16:27:02 <mroman> which recently turned into a major depression
16:27:08 <J_Arcane> mroman: depression is a rough business. it's part of why I quit the school.
16:27:14 <oerjan> J_Arcane: congrats to you too then
16:27:21 <mroman> Solace: Currently, yes
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16:28:23 <Solace> School is amazing J_Arcane Especially the mass ammounts of anxiety
16:28:40 <Solace> But you can't leave school on a whim in America
16:29:36 <elliott> people drop out of school in america y'know
16:30:48 <J_Arcane> Solace: it was a really screwed up program, and one tailor made to trigger all my neuroses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestopedia
16:30:57 <J_Arcane> also, I'm a college drop out, and not in jail yet. ;)
16:31:42 <Solace> elliott: you cant really in highschool
16:32:22 <elliott> I guess the people I've known who dropped out of high school just don't exist then
16:32:48 <Solace> you need atleast a highschool diploma for many jobs
16:33:04 <Solace> I'm sorry elliott but if I dropped out my family would disown me
16:33:20 <elliott> ok, well, that's quite far from going to jail
16:33:45 <J_Arcane> Solace: ahh, yeah, high school is differentish. until you're 16 or so in most states it is technically illegal, though I don't think they've jailed anyone for it since the 40s.
16:33:50 <Solace> Id probably murder someone so
16:34:14 <elliott> J_Arcane: especially since homeschooling is legal and (afaik) not terribly regulated in practice in the US?
16:34:15 <Solace> I need anti-phsychotics for stuff
16:34:54 <J_Arcane> elliott: It really depends on the state. IT was in theory pretty specific in Oregon, but not well enforced and still pretty flexible.
16:35:20 <Solace> Uh how did this come from burlesque
16:35:26 * elliott dropped out at age ~8-10, but in the UK.
16:35:47 <Solace> elliott: not every one is elliott
16:36:33 <elliott> mroman: btw congratulations on leaving! hope things go well for you
16:36:36 <J_Arcane> elliott: Partly this is because the biggest motivator of homeschooling is religious, science education standards for homeschooling in particular are abominable.
16:37:06 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
16:37:10 <jameseb> elliott: how? I thought it was required to be educated until age 16...or do you mean you were homeschooled?
16:37:58 <elliott> jameseb: it's really not very regulated.
16:38:23 <Solace> J_Arcane: I don't do illegal stuff cuz ye
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16:38:39 <elliott> I might have been de jure down as being homeschooled.
16:38:53 <J_Arcane> MY town in high school was lousy with teenage dropouts, but they were rarely even investigated unless the kid did something illegal.
16:42:02 <Solace> I'm gonna use a mitre saw
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17:39:45 <Taneb> I have FINISHED EXAMS FOR THE WEEK
17:43:28 <b_jonas> Taneb: good. what will you have next week.
17:43:56 <Taneb> None, I just didn't want to say "until I next have exams, probably June"
17:44:07 <Taneb> I recognize in retrospect what I said may have been mildly misleading
17:44:11 <Taneb> For which I apologize
17:44:47 <b_jonas> then it's time to celebrate
17:47:05 <Jafet> > nubBy (<=) [1,2,3,4,2,4,6,3,6,9]
17:47:28 <Taneb> Jafet, nice dropsort implementation
17:48:03 <elliott> Jafet: technically undefined behaviour
17:48:10 <Jafet> (Does this work for any valid implementation of nubBy?)
17:48:15 <elliott> or, well, implementation-defined or whatever
17:48:25 <elliott> you must pass nubBy an equivalence relation
17:48:30 <elliott> so theoretically that could just do whatever
17:48:31 <glguy> "The nubBy function behaves just like nub, except it uses a user-supplied equality predicate instead of the overloaded == function.", That's all the guarantee base offers
17:48:43 <Jafet> Oh, nubBy could apply it backwards
17:48:44 <oerjan> i understand ghc and hugs worked differently on this point
17:48:56 <elliott> Jafet: you could even just use a RULE to turn nubBy (<=) into reverse or whatever
17:49:21 <oerjan> ghc and the haskell 98 reference implementation didn't agree
17:49:34 <Jafet> There was a reference implementation>
17:50:04 <glguy> the GHC implementation only needs to match the reference implementation up to the specification, though
17:50:41 <oerjan> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/list.html
17:50:55 <oerjan> they removed those from h2010 though
17:51:37 <elliott> they did? https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch9.html
17:52:06 <oerjan> not for the Prelude, but for the other modules
17:55:57 <oerjan> i wonder if parametricity means it's still safe to use relations that are reflexive/symmetric but not transitive
17:56:25 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
17:56:27 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
17:56:53 <Jafet> No, because nubBy can pick an arbitrary "equal" element to compare with the rest of the list
17:57:41 <oerjan> at least those work in both sane implementations
17:58:45 <oerjan> oh actually i think the prime list might work even if you do that
17:59:28 <oerjan> because a multiple still works
17:59:48 <elliott> I guess there's no way to break things with it without breaking stuff that must work
18:00:10 <elliott> oerjan: also it could always try every combination of comparisons on the list
18:00:18 <elliott> and check they're consistent with equivalence relation properties
18:00:33 <elliott> that's the DS9K way, I think
18:00:45 <elliott> since if those tests pass it doesn't matter what element it uses for comparisons etc.
18:00:58 <elliott> except nub has to work with infinite lists I guess?
18:01:10 <elliott> but it could check as it goes.
18:01:25 <Jafet> > let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x==)) xs) where x' = case filter (x==) xs of _:x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:01:26 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
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18:03:53 <oerjan> i _think_ nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..] is guaranteed to work for any parametric implementation of nubBy.
18:04:26 <Jafet> > let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x'==)) xs) where x' = case filter (x==) xs of _:x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:05:02 <Jafet> > take 10 $ let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x'==)) xs) where x' = case filter (x==) xs of _:x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:05:09 <oerjan> no you could break it by being evil enough.
18:05:20 <Jafet> What, are those all primes
18:06:44 <oerjan> you seem to have lost all multiples of 3
18:08:45 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't think that's a legal implementation of nubBy, it will break on infinite lists when there is nothing or just one item matching x
18:10:05 <oerjan> however you could do a bait and switch thing. once you get to 6 you can deduce that it's == to both 2 and 3, and throw away one of them.
18:10:37 <elliott> > let True ==> p = p; _ ==> _ = True; check_symm p xs = [p x y ==> p y x | x <- xs, y <- xs] in check_symm (<=) [1,2,3,4]
18:10:39 <lambdabot> [True,False,False,False,True,True,False,False,True,True,True,False,True,True...
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18:10:45 <elliott> > let True ==> p = p; _ ==> _ = True; check_symm p xs = and [p x y ==> p y x | x <- xs, y <- xs] in check_symm (<=) [1,2,3,4]
18:11:14 <Jafet> But gcd makes it so that you can substitute any multiple of the prime and it still works
18:11:23 <elliott> that + the same for reflexivity and transitivity, then feed the xs's inits into all of those
18:11:35 <oerjan> <elliott> and check they're consistent with equivalence relation properties <-- oh hm right
18:11:35 <elliott> advancing to the next init each time you process an element in nubBy
18:11:46 <elliott> that works for infinite lists, and checks as much as you possibly can
18:12:02 <elliott> of course you can still subvert it by giving a list it just happens to work out on, nothing you can do there given parametricity
18:14:19 <oerjan> well that would mean it _is_ an equivalence relation on the set of list elements.
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18:16:44 <Jafet> > take 8 $ let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x'==)) xs) where x' = case drop 2 $ filter (x==) xs of x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:17:16 <Jafet> This is the most robust prime generator ever
18:44:34 <J_Arcane> Racket has a suite of prime-number functions in the standard library. You can just do "(map nth-prime (range n))" ... kinda spoiled Project Euler a bit. ;)
18:44:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there's a hole in your puzzle specs. "No cards that are in anyone's graveyard and exile have abilities that can be activated from those zones" technically doesn't exclude that the opponent has a Devil's Play in his gy and can kill you right now in your upkeep.
18:49:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: or five copies of Flam Jab
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19:40:58 <zzo38> That's because I made a mistake and wrote "activated" instead of "used"; I fixed it. I don't mean only activated abilities. But let me check those cards and see what it is anyways
19:41:57 <zzo38> There aren't any triggered or static abilities that can be used from there either (possibly other than characteristic defining abilities).
19:47:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: basically, any card with flashback or retrace or unearth
19:47:49 <b_jonas> I guess perhaps some triggered abilities that work form the graveyard could cause trouble too, I don't know if there are any cards like that
19:48:35 <b_jonas> well, there's recover, but that won't matter in this puzzle
19:49:08 <b_jonas> unless you manage to donate a creature or something, btu I don't think that occurs in The Dark
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19:50:10 <b_jonas> I think Hunted Wumpus from Masques is the earliest card with that kind of stuff
19:51:11 <b_jonas> I think the word they use is "function" as in, the ability "functions from the graveyard"
19:51:24 <b_jonas> or "functions in the graveyard"? I dunno
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20:59:39 <shikhin> elliott: I made a script that allowed others to rename me, and... :p
21:00:43 <shikhin> elliott: Not going to get myself into more spamming!
21:00:54 <elliott> trust me I have something better in mind
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21:01:59 <elliott> please. all programming discussion is suspended until I can get shikhin to /nick elliott_ and then ghost them
21:02:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: Nevertheless I fixed it.
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22:15:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41646&oldid=40883 * 99.231.6.121 * (+10)
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22:47:39 <zzo38> If a Magic: the Gathering global enchantment card called Nirvana says "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana", it is meaningless, but what do you think it means to you at least? A few people including myself had varying ideas about what it means.
22:48:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, maybe it means that if that Nirvana is attacking and has flying, then goblins with reach can't block it unless they also have flying
22:49:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is what I thought it meant too.
22:49:31 <shachaf> A global enchantment card attacking?
22:49:44 <zzo38> (Of course it can't attack since it isn't a creature, but it would have to become a creature and gain flying ability.)
22:49:47 <shachaf> That's maybe not impossible but it doesn't seem likely.
22:49:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, it can get turned to a creature
22:50:00 <b_jonas> it's easier than for an aura
22:50:02 <shachaf> It doesn't seem to follow the intent of the card.
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22:51:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: a goblin with reach also doesn't sound like a common occurrance
22:51:59 <zzo38> b_jonas: I realized that too
22:53:15 <b_jonas> but at least it's easier to get one than to get a flying global enchantment
22:53:29 <b_jonas> from an ordinary global enchantment that is
22:54:11 <b_jonas> not one that's printed already as an enchantment creature
22:54:33 <zzo38> Yes, as to make it fly you have to first make it into a creature (even if you can give it flying without making it into a creature, which is even more difficult, it can't attack unless it becomes a creature)
22:55:09 <shachaf> There's a goblin that can have reach without any other cards on the battlefield.
22:55:48 <b_jonas> Do you need three more cards, one to turn Nirvana to an artifact, one to animate it to a creature, and one to make it flying? or can you do it with only two?
22:56:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: duh. you can cast Snare the Skies on anything.
22:56:54 <shachaf> I was trying to be clever with Cairn Wanderer.
22:57:36 <zzo38> shachaf: When doing a search, that's the one I found too, Cairn Wanderer
22:58:53 <b_jonas> who needs fancy rares like Cairn Wanderer? I can just cast Shields of Velis Vel on my Treetop Scout.
23:02:32 <b_jonas> though my favourite way to give creatures reach does require a permanent
23:02:43 <b_jonas> I actually play that card in my elf control deck
23:06:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: so after Cleanse and that puzzle, I was wondering whether an opponent in a similar situation (nothing on his battlefield and hand, you have 5 life) could win starting from drawing just one card
23:08:37 <zzo38> This puzzle doesn't have enough targets for Dust to Dust isn't it?
23:08:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: it does, the circle of protection and some card you have
23:09:26 <Sgeo> Rust 1.0.0 alpha!
23:09:27 <zzo38> Circle of Protection isn't an artifact.
23:09:30 <b_jonas> the problem is that with Dust to Dust, the opponent can still keep two lands, which is enough
23:09:58 <b_jonas> taht card doesn't destroy enchantments?
23:10:27 <b_jonas> this wasn't about Dust to Dust
23:10:31 <zzo38> But you may have meant Cleansing.
23:10:33 <b_jonas> what was taht crazy card that destroyed lands?
23:11:55 <zzo38> And yes they can, in various ways, depending on the situation. For example if you don't have enough cards in your library afterward they will defeat you with Ancestral Recall.
23:12:15 <b_jonas> you probably do have enough cards
23:12:58 <zzo38> Yes, probably, although the stipulation says this is not guaranteed.
23:12:58 <b_jonas> the fun part is that if you had only 4 life, Pact of the Titan would be enough for them to win
23:14:57 <zzo38> Actually with that and Lightning Bolt, they can still win if the first card they picked up is Ancestral Recall targeting themself instead of you.
23:15:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: but they can't pay for the Ancestral Recall
23:15:32 <b_jonas> that's why I'm asking for the hypothetical situation when they hae no lands
23:15:44 <b_jonas> Cleansing isn't enough, because it lets them keep two lands, which is enough for them to win
23:15:44 <zzo38> O, I thought they had two?
23:15:55 <b_jonas> yes, with Cleansing they keep two lands, for six mana
23:16:28 <b_jonas> so they can play Ideas Unbound, draw a Mountain, a Lava Axe, and a third card they discard to the Lava Axe
23:16:34 <b_jonas> they win even without the Mana Flare
23:16:46 <b_jonas> so this isn't part of the puzzle,
23:17:18 <b_jonas> I'm just wondering if it's possible for them to win if they have no permanents at all and no card in hand at the start of their turn
23:17:59 <b_jonas> you could assume you still have Concordant Crossroads and two Mana Flare if that makes it easier
23:19:45 <b_jonas> and assume your Leviathan is tapped or dead or something
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00:11:39 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Rust 1.0.0 alpha! <-- ooh
00:12:01 <Taneb> "cajole" doesn't look right
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00:12:19 <Taneb> oerjan, to be an English word
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00:12:35 <Taneb> But it's fine when it's spoken?
00:12:41 <oerjan> it looks correctly spelled to me, but of course it might be borrowed
00:15:15 <oerjan> it could have been spanish but then it would have been pronounced like caholey
00:16:13 <Taneb> It was used in English as early as 1645
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00:21:21 <Taneb> Why do I have exactly the same IRC open on two different computers
00:21:34 <Taneb> So I can swap between the two by turning a little
00:21:43 <Taneb> But no-one can tell any different?
00:26:12 <oren> tough should be spelled tuff
00:26:52 <Taneb> I think I ought to go to bed soon
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00:30:26 <ais523> hmm, I guess #esoteric is an odd channel to ask this question, but it's possibly more ontopic than half the stuff that normally gets posted here?
00:30:38 <ais523> the NetHack DevTeam have apparently woken up, or at least, they're asking for advice about Unicode
00:30:46 <ais523> http://bilious.alt.org/rgrn/?131319
00:30:53 <ais523> does anyone here have advice for them?
00:31:28 <Taneb> "Follow your heart!"
00:31:35 <Taneb> "Believe in yourself"
00:32:39 <Taneb> "Sleep for at least 6 hours a day"
00:32:42 <Taneb> On which note, goodnight
00:32:57 <oerjan> only 6? are you trying to kill people
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01:02:10 <Sgeo> If the language is known to provide sane Unicode support, that should probably be preferred. But it's C.
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01:07:23 <zzo38> I think NetHack does not need Unicode especially if it can confuse the character width
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01:22:12 <Sgeo> "There are times when ipecac is unsafe. It shouldn't be given to someone who swallowed chemicals that cause burns on contact or medicines that can cause seizures very quickly. "
01:22:43 <Sgeo> Never really thought about how the latter could contraindicate vomiting. Although apparently vomiting doesn't actually help poisoning in general?
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01:22:48 <Sgeo> http://www.poison.org/prepared/ipecac.asp
01:23:05 <Sgeo> Or at least, not enough to make ipecac considered useful tokeep at home
01:23:46 <Sgeo> (Saw some Reddit thread about Yahoo Answers and apparently someone answered to drink ipecac to someone who thought they were a witch, which is why I'm reading this now)
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01:25:05 <Sgeo> Oh, maybe no one actually answered that, it's a hypothetical answer someone made up to someone hypothetically asking how to learn magic
01:25:55 <Sgeo> Inspired by https://i.imgur.com/DR9rJCE.jpg which is worse
01:27:00 <oerjan> what if there were no hypothetical answers
01:28:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: it stands to reason that transformation to a different species would be by darwin award.
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02:15:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41647&oldid=41599 * Oerjan * (+5) Clarify previous edit; presumably shl = shift left
02:17:53 <Sgeo> By 2030, almost 80 percent of the ocean will be underwater.
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02:20:51 <oerjan> i guess it's good they found out how to transform into mermaids, then
02:21:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User talk:Crewjony]]": Spam: content was: "0x29A is an esoteric programming language, invented by David Lewis in 2004 http://www.topwedding.com/cheongsam" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Crewjony|Crewjony]]")
02:22:11 <Sgeo> http://www.clickhole.com/article/18-incredible-ways-world-will-change-during-your-l-1676
02:23:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Crewjony]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
02:24:06 <oerjan> i assume disabling editing own talk page is reasonable when that's what they spammed to start with
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02:25:06 <Sgeo> Did the bot pick up a piece of a different page?
02:25:53 <oerjan> it first did that, then added the spam link a while after
02:30:07 <oerjan> Sgeo: i vaguely suspect your link is to a humor site hth
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02:30:18 <oerjan> although 1 and 2 might technically be true already
02:30:40 <oerjan> by some interpretations
02:31:18 <shachaf> oerjan: have you ever accomplished 2
02:31:19 <Sgeo> 6 might be half true?
02:31:41 <Sgeo> Wait, no, oil being anything dinosaur related is a myth, I think?
02:31:50 <shachaf> birds do sometimes run on cars
02:31:52 <oerjan> shachaf: as a child i showered in a bathtub, does that count?
02:32:10 <shachaf> Sgeo: i'm all sorts of losing at prismata vs. the computer now :'(
02:33:00 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://what-if.xkcd.com/101/
02:33:30 <Sgeo> 15 is correct according to Wikipedia
02:43:45 <Jafet> > let isP b n = (\x -> x == reverse x) $ showIntAtBase b toEnum n "" in all (`isP` 32456836304775204439912231201966254787) [2,3]
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02:44:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Iexp]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41648&oldid=41611 * Oerjan * (+10) /* Iexo reference */ Prevent line break by using nbsp's in widest row
02:53:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lisp2d]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41649&oldid=41614 * Oerjan * (-1197) wikify, and alas I don't think the example is PD
02:55:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41650&oldid=41618 * Oerjan * (+0) Order
02:56:10 <oerjan> suddenly i find myself starting to use ctrl-X...
02:58:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41651&oldid=41626 * Oerjan * (+0) Ditto
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03:00:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41652&oldid=41640 * Oerjan * (+0) /* External Resources */ A capital mistake
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03:02:46 <Bike> Hello, nerds. Anyone know where I can ask about doing horrible things to my motherboard firmware?
03:02:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Calculator fuck/Example]] to [[Calculator fuck]]: This needs a main article and then a separate example article is overkill
03:02:54 <Sgeo> How important are existential types to good abstraction? Rust seems like it has a trickier time of it, and would use its equivalent of typeclasses in a lot of places where Haskell might use existentials
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07:21:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Esowiki201529A * moved [[Truth-machine]] to [[Talk:111]]: ignored confusing vandalism
07:22:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ehird * moved [[Talk:111]] to [[Truth-machine]] over redirect
07:24:52 <Jafet> Accurate edit summaries
07:26:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41657&oldid=41638 * Ehird * (+528) /* Disruptive edits */
07:29:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41658&oldid=41657 * Ehird * (+233) /* Disruptive edits */
07:31:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[Test cyclic redirect]]": doesn't belong in article space -- feel free to use [[Esolang:Sandbox]] for things like this
07:48:54 <Jafet> Valid C++: fun(decltype(f) f): f(f) {}
07:50:25 <shachaf> Jafet: Aw, that decltype(f) doesn't refer to the f it's declaring.
08:21:33 * int-e admires elliott's patience
08:23:13 <elliott> int-e: *shrug* it's only been twice and they're making contributions clearly not intended as vandalism too
08:23:28 <vanila> they are an esoteric wiki editor
08:23:33 <elliott> I used to be the weird, vaguely disruptive autistic kid on the internet; I'm inclined to sympathy for behaviour that reminds me of that
08:23:52 <vanila> yeah honestly I think you rea really good, I would have smashed him immediately
08:23:59 <vanila> but I think that is not good
08:24:38 <elliott> haha I kind of freaked the when NSQX joined in like 2012 and I woke up to the main page having all this weird stuff on it and recent changes flooded
08:24:53 <elliott> it took me a few minutes to be like ok this isn't actually that big a deal
08:25:06 <elliott> um. an editor who did really strange suff like this a few years ago
08:25:50 <elliott> up to, like, running an unauthorised bot to put the entirety of unicode on the wiki and then running it again from an IP after getting blocked for it.
08:25:58 <elliott> I'm still pretty sure they were just misguided because they also made a bunch of random esolangs and stuff
08:26:08 <elliott> oh well, administering a wiki is fun
08:26:34 <elliott> oh I jsut realised their username is like
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10:08:19 <Deewiant> @tell ais523 It occurred to me that engraving éééé should take maybe 20% longer than engraving eeee but I'm not sure if any Unicode database contains "stroke count" or "ink required" or the like
10:12:30 <elliott> Deewiant: do you want d to take longer than . too
10:12:56 <Deewiant> elliott: That would be the idea yes
10:13:39 <elliott> this seems a bit realism-over-gameplay :P
10:14:01 <Deewiant> Who engraves anything except Elbereth anyway :-P
10:21:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: The Unihan database is indexed by stroke count.
10:22:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: Not very useful in terms of e vs. é.
10:23:10 <Deewiant> Yes of course the info exists for Chinese characters but you'd need all of Unicode
10:24:59 <fizzie> "Ink required" is probably undefined, since Unicode doesn't define the actual glyph shapes.
10:25:20 <fizzie> You could compute it from a reference font that best matches what you get by sampling engravings made by people in dungeons.
10:26:04 <fizzie> (Uh, and also covers the whole of Unicode.)
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10:31:29 <Jafet> The consortium has reference glyphs
10:33:05 <Jafet> The real question is
10:33:16 <Jafet> How would you implement fading letters
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10:36:22 <fizzie> From what I recall, the reference glyphs in code charts are explicitly not reference glyphs.
10:37:00 <fizzie> They are just "representative glyphs".
10:38:04 <fizzie> (I guess it's a subtle distinction.)
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10:40:52 <fizzie> "Consistency with the representative glyph does not require that the images be identical or even graphically similar; rather, it means that both images are generally recognized to be representations of the same character." (Unicode 7.0, chapter 3.3, clause D2.)
10:41:34 <fizzie> (From the realism perspective, I don't think they've considered dungeon-engravingness when selecting the representative glyphs.)
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10:46:11 <vanila> is there a brainfuck benchmark site?
10:46:19 <vanila> i want to see a comparison of all brainfuck implementations
10:47:55 <fizzie> I don't remember where the big one was.
10:48:04 <fizzie> There's a small one in http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:David.werecat/BFBench
10:49:36 <vanila> Fast brainfuck interpreter using GNU lightning
10:49:38 <vanila> http://lvogel.free.fr/bf.html
10:49:41 <vanila> this seems to be the winner
10:49:53 <fizzie> There's a bigger one that I'm sure I've seen, I think on the page of some optimizing implementation.
10:50:00 <fizzie> Of course given the source, that might be biased.
10:52:24 <vanila> how is bf-li so much faster for mandelbrot?
10:52:27 <vanila> it looks like a mistake
10:52:27 <fizzie> The page I've linked hasn't been updated in a while -- this was something more current. Bah, my head is a sieve. It might even have been a page on esolangs.
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10:54:54 <fizzie> MediaWiki should offer some way of searching for the pages with the biggest tables on them.
10:57:23 <fizzie> vanila: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Rdebath#Performance_Matrix here you go
10:58:04 <vanila> great, thanks so much!
11:00:29 <vanila> hmm i dont understand this table
11:01:05 <Jafet> Comparing bf speed is tricky because I can write eg. a decompiler for c2bf specifically, then it would run c2bf-generated programs exponentially faster
11:01:06 <fizzie> vanila: To be honest, probably only its creator understands it.
11:01:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: I knew that. I don't know that.
11:01:38 <fizzie> Also I think it was asked on-channel.
11:02:23 <Deewiant> No answer that I can see, though
11:02:59 <fizzie> I was sure I got an answer, but I don't see one either.
11:03:17 <Deewiant> Maybe you just figured it out and didn't write it down
11:04:42 <fizzie> "The bitwidth column is the result of a cell size detecting BF program, it can fail like any other test but does not normally provide a run time. As it also runs some basic functionality tests so a major failure of this test means the interpreter is not run for the others. The test is in two parts so buggy or slow interpreters may lose the second part."
11:04:52 <fizzie> I may have located the program.
11:05:35 <fizzie> Have to go now. Good luck duplicating the work. :)
11:05:59 <Deewiant> Unfortunately I'm not that interested and also going shortly
11:34:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41659&oldid=41656 * Rdebath * (+4) Page exists
11:50:18 <vanila> what simple 'vm' like languages could I try to implement?
11:50:31 <vanila> I have a brainfuck already
11:58:14 <vanila> yeah I think false would be good!
12:02:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[StackFlow]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41660&oldid=38324 * B jonas * (+0) typo
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12:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[StackFlow]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41661&oldid=41660 * B jonas * (-2) error: "inactive player" where you meant "active player"
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12:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onecode (GermanyBoy)]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41662&oldid=39748 * GermanyBoy * (-12) /* Operators */
12:48:13 <oren> idea: instead of (a+b)*c do a+*cb
12:48:37 <oren> i call it "inside out notation"
12:53:08 <oren> xy*+*yx instead of x*x+y*y
12:55:41 <oren> hmmm... stillnot totallly ambiguous without some rules
12:56:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:StackFlow]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41663 * B jonas * (+631) /* M:tG implementation */ new section
13:01:44 <oren> i'll make a wiki page
13:01:56 <oren> i've figured it out
13:02:05 <elliott> 13:01:43 <vanila> it doesnt make sense!
13:02:06 <elliott> 13:01:44 <oren> i'll make a wiki page
13:02:37 <oren> xy+*z -> y+(x*z)
13:03:11 <oren> x+*yz -> (x+z)*y
13:03:40 <oren> consider the subexpression +*y as saying multiply y by the result of +
13:04:37 <oren> then + takes its arguments from the next inside
13:05:13 <oren> that is x and z
13:07:48 <oren> now consider x---yzw the last - must be the outermost because only the first has a non-symbol argument
13:10:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inside-out notation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41664 * Orenwatson * (+318) initial explanation and examples
13:11:48 <oren> xy---zw -> (y-z)-(x-w)
13:14:08 <oren> i'm not sur whether the rule of availability of arguments would always cause the innermost operator to be the last evaluated
13:17:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inside-out notation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41665&oldid=41664 * Orenwatson * (+125)
13:21:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inside-out notation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41666&oldid=41665 * Orenwatson * (-99) actually, not the case. see example
13:24:34 <oren> now let's build a language based on this notation!
13:29:41 <oren> i suppose it would need to be functional...
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13:37:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inside-out notation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41667&oldid=41666 * Orenwatson * (+44)
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14:23:52 <Jafet> Dang, I'm now one of those silly people who want to sort a bunch of ints really fast
14:28:25 <b_jonas> Jafet: how large a bunch? fits in memory, or doesn't?
14:30:51 <Jafet> Well, as many as possible.
14:31:18 <Jafet> The previous run of this program resulted in a 92GB file with ~4*10^9 records
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14:39:24 <vanila> @tell oren use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijective_numeration
14:41:23 <b_jonas> so more than would fit in the memory, ok
14:45:54 <Jafet> Yes, though I don't think that's important
14:46:24 <Jafet> (They're effectively ~36-bit integers.)
14:47:48 <b_jonas> hmm, if it's 36 bits, then 92 GB has a lot of them
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15:29:17 <Jafet> I think I figured out the simplest solution.
15:29:32 <Jafet> I should just go out and buy a flash drive for this.
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15:36:30 <Taneb> You know, without exams to worry about I am pretty darn bored
15:38:36 <vanila> why don't you find a cool project to wokr on
15:39:10 <Taneb> I think I will just read though
15:46:35 <oerjan> we have/had that in norway too
15:46:55 <oerjan> some december, some january
15:47:18 <oerjan> to ensure that nice christmas spirit
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15:50:07 <oerjan> yes, that's the common reaction i think
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15:58:00 <J_Arcane> http://www.xorpd.net/pages/xchg_rax/snip_00.html
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16:45:01 <fizzie> 96 GB is not automatically "more than would fit in the memory" these days.
16:45:32 <fizzie> The cluster at the university had a couple of "fat nodes" with 1TB of RAM for memory-hungry tasks.
16:45:47 <oerjan> given that Jafet is trying to expand an OEIS sequence, we can safely assume he _will_ run out of resources eventually.
16:46:32 <fizzie> And I think our January exams were mostly for those who wanted to retake something they screwed up in December.
16:59:01 <Jafet> I think it's still automatically "more than would fit in the memory of a PC"
16:59:12 <Jafet> (Haswell chipsets go up to 64GiB?)
17:01:35 <b_jonas> oh, this is about that problem!
17:01:58 <b_jonas> Jafet: doesn't it have a sane enough distribution that you could use a binned sort or hashing rather than a usual sort?
17:02:25 <Jafet> You need RAM to do that.
17:03:02 <b_jonas> yeah, it probably doesn't help much for an external (disk) sort over a regular merge sort
17:03:39 <b_jonas> but even then, if you just use a few gig of ram, shouldn't some ordinary merge sort on the disk or whatever other sort run fast enough to finish in an hour?
17:05:28 <b_jonas> Jafet: doesn't 96 GB of 36 bit numbers mean that say one in every four or eight number is present?
17:06:01 <Jafet> On average. (They're fairly well-distributed.)
17:06:46 <b_jonas> Jafet: could you get a machine with 16 GB RAM and fit a bitmap of 2**36 bits in the ram? would that be enough?
17:07:05 <b_jonas> machines with 16 GB of ram are actually accessible these days
17:07:22 <b_jonas> I mean, borrow time on such a machine from a friend or something
17:07:25 <Jafet> I've already searched this space. The next search size will create ~200GB
17:08:02 <b_jonas> and that's after you've traded some of the space for time, right? because you can run this for days
17:09:04 <Jafet> Assuming I don't run out of disks, equal space/time is probably the optimal tradeoff on this machine
17:09:25 <b_jonas> what does "equal space/time" mean?
17:10:08 <b_jonas> do you mean spending about the same time for creating the tables as for the rest of the computation?
17:10:33 <Jafet> The algorithm searches a space of 2^n by creating a "table" of size ~2^(n/2) and matching the other 2^(n/2) half on it
17:11:14 <Jafet> However, the only reasonable way to implement this is to make two lists of size ~2^(n/2) and sort them, because the table doesn't fit into memory
17:12:20 <b_jonas> but they're distributed mostly uniformly, right?
17:12:32 <Jafet> I don't think that helps.
17:12:50 <b_jonas> how fast is it to generate the unsorted lists?
17:13:30 <Jafet> As fast as the disk can write them
17:13:43 <b_jonas> instead of sorting, could you generate the first list 100 times over and over, keeping numbers from 1/100 of the sorted list in memory, never writing anything on the disk, and after each time, generate the second list?
17:13:58 <b_jonas> as in, would it be faster than generating both once and sorting them?
17:14:12 <b_jonas> (or vice versa with the second disk if that's faster)
17:14:50 <Jafet> That would only be better if the disk is 100 times slower than memory, right?
17:15:17 <b_jonas> also if the disk is 10 times slower but you need 10 passes on the disk to sort
17:16:45 <b_jonas> and the actual numbers might come up different, because again you can keep a bitmap instead of a list of numbers, so you can keep quite a large portion of your numbers as a bitmap in memory I think
17:18:18 <Jafet> These are just keys, so I can't use a bitmap
17:18:56 <b_jonas> of course, buying a faster sold state drive and ram might help as well
17:19:11 <Jafet> The current sort uses 3 passes, apparently
17:19:32 <Jafet> (or 3 passes worth of disk I/O)
17:22:02 <Jafet> Also memory is pretty slow if you use a lot of it. A RAM lookup is, what, 100 cycles?
17:22:34 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes (depending on like everything), but that's the latency, the throughput is a bit better, isn't it?
17:22:51 <b_jonas> but you can't really help using a lot of memory here
17:22:52 <Jafet> These are table lookups, as far as I know they are random
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17:31:57 <Jafet> Nevermind that, apparently linux cached more than it should have
17:34:33 <Jafet> linux didn't swap out the file (even with ulimit -m), so the disk I/O amount was too low
17:35:01 <b_jonas> oh, just re-create the file from scratch and measure time that way
17:36:13 <Jafet> As in, I expected linux to swap out the file as the program was sorting it
17:37:17 <b_jonas> usually linux decides correctly on what to keep in memory, but if it doesn't, you can force it
17:37:31 <b_jonas> it's just that usually you don't know better
17:37:41 <b_jonas> your guesses are just as bad as linux's in such cases
17:38:01 <Jafet> Well, I want to pretend this computer has less RAM so that I can benchmark I/O efficiency on a smaller file.
17:38:27 <b_jonas> oh, you want to pretend it has less ram continuously?
17:38:50 <b_jonas> then start another program that allocates and mlocks lots of memory so only a little remains
17:39:06 <b_jonas> (but then don't complain if your computer becomes slow)
17:39:28 <Jafet> linux I/O scheduling is taking care of that part already
17:39:46 <Jafet> Fun, it turns out that linux does not implement -m
17:39:51 <b_jonas> if you just want to swap out the file once, then fadvise it
17:42:06 <b_jonas> madvise works on mmapped regions, which may or may not be files,
17:42:37 <Jafet> In this case, I am sorting the file through mmap
17:42:45 <b_jonas> posix_fadvise works on files which may or may not be mmapped
17:45:02 <coppro> what about ones which neither may nor may not be files?
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18:13:22 <lambdabot> ENVA 101750Z 10021G31KT CAVOK M02/M09 Q0967 RMK WIND 670FT 11039G51KT
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18:56:41 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150104-buzzwords.jpg so buzzwordy
18:57:55 <Jafet> I expected a webring banner at the end
18:58:05 <elliott> is that what google's working on
19:00:35 <fizzie> Unfortunately I am not able to comment on what Google may or may not be working on.
19:00:38 <fizzie> Or at least I think that's what I'm supposed to say.
19:01:02 <fizzie> (The photo's actually a day before I started, anyway.)
19:01:31 <fizzie> (It's from the Hyde Park "Winter Wonderland" thing, which had its last weekend... well, last weekend.)
19:05:14 <J_Arcane> I am increasingly unimpressed with the quality of CodeWars' Haskell exercises.
19:05:34 -!- bb010g has joined.
19:06:44 <fizzie> J_Arcane: Isn't it all crowdsourced?
19:07:10 <J_Arcane> The current one, for instance, appears to involve calculating the factorial of 1,000,000,000, with an execution window of 6s.
19:10:13 <Jafet> > 10^9 * (log (10^9) - 1)
19:10:59 <J_Arcane> Now, I think the problem can probably be simplified to only finding the relevant factors of ten, perhaps, but I'm not sure I know how to do the math there.
19:11:04 <Jafet> > 10^9 * (log (10^9) - 1) / log 256
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19:12:14 <J_Arcane> fizzie: Mostly; I think they have some inhouse people writing some as well, and there is a peer review and voting process for it though.
19:14:57 <J_Arcane> (the problem in this case is to find the number of trailing zeroes in a factorial solution, with the test cases extending up into 10-digit numbers.)
19:15:54 <Jafet> > minimum $ sum . map (\q -> 10^9 `div` q) . takeWhile (<=10^9) . (iterate =<< (*)) <$> [2,5]
19:16:11 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: you don't have to calculate the factorial to tell how many trailign zeros it has. there's a well-known trick that makes it much easier.
19:16:39 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: Yeah, my guess was that you can just find the powers of ten in the list of factors?
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19:19:02 <Jafet> It may be easier if you try to calculate the number of zeroes at the end of (10^1000)!.
19:21:14 <myname> don't you basically just have to devide x by 5?
19:22:43 <b_jonas> myname: no, by 4 approximately, I think
19:23:23 <Jafet> > sum . takeWhile (>0) . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^9
19:23:39 <Jafet> > sum . takeWhile (>0) . tail . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^9
19:23:43 <J_Arcane> Yeah, apparently the trick is just counting the factors of 5.
19:30:22 <J_Arcane> The slight hitch is that 25 counts twice (because it's the product of two fives.
19:30:58 <Jafet> > [ last.show. sum . takeWhile (>0) . tail . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^n | n <- [0..99] ]
19:30:59 <lambdabot> "024999899877778765556754352242002432203110901019999877860635778564586554555...
19:31:23 <myname> Jafet: well, that's why i would divide
19:33:24 <Jafet> > [ read.dropWhile(=='9').drop 2.show. sum . takeWhile (>0) . tail . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^n | n <- [3..99] ] :: [Integer]
19:33:25 <lambdabot> [*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:33:45 <Jafet> > [ read.dropWhile(=='9').drop 2.show. sum . takeWhile (>0) . tail . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^n | n <- [5..99] ] :: [Integer]
19:33:46 <lambdabot> [*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:33:54 <Jafet> > [ read.dropWhile(=='9').drop 2.show. sum . takeWhile (>0) . tail . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^n | n <- [7..99] ] :: [Integer]
19:33:55 <lambdabot> [*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:34:11 <Jafet> > [ read.('0':).dropWhile(=='9').drop 2.show. sum . takeWhile (>0) . tail . iterate(`div`5) $ 10^n | n <- [0..99] ] :: [Integer]
19:34:12 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,8,0,0,8,7,7,7,7,8,7,6,5,5,5,6,7,5,4,3,5,2,2,4,2,0,0,2,4,3,2,2,0...
19:34:25 <myname> Jafet: why you no read.return?
19:35:01 <myname> return makes a String out of the Char
19:35:21 <myname> hatever you put in there
19:35:42 <myname> i just start understanding what you are doing
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19:39:51 <J_Arcane> Ahhh! I see what you're doing now. (mainly because I have a page open in another window explaining the 'divide by 5` now.
19:40:41 <J_Arcane> If you divide by progressive powers of five, until you get less than 1, and add the results, you get t he number of leading zeroes.
19:46:30 <J_Arcane> > let zeros n = let r = n `div` 5 in if r == 0 then 0 else r + (zeros r) in zeros 1000000000
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20:01:46 <J_Arcane> http://torrentfreak.com/chilling-effects-dmca-archive-censors-itself-150110/
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20:54:02 <Sgeo> https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10924282_1542646042642323_7050022283664213488_o.jpg
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21:57:09 * oerjan wonders if it can get more complicated if your base isn't a product of distinct primes, like e.g. 12 = 3 * 2^2
22:03:03 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | p' <- div n p = p' + sumIDiv p' in sumIDiv 5 1000000000
22:03:05 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a1 ~ a1 -> a1
22:03:05 <lambdabot> p' :: a1 (bound at <interactive>:1:36)
22:03:33 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in sumIDiv 5 1000000000
22:03:43 <oerjan> anyone wants a slightly broken, used brain
22:04:33 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in [(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2,sumIDiv 3 n)| n<-[1..]]
22:04:34 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(0,0),(0,1),(1,1),(1,1),(2,2),(2,2),(3,2),(3,4),(4,4),(4,4),(5,5),(5,...
22:05:25 <oerjan> that looks pretty close
22:05:53 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in [compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 3 n)| n<-[1..]]
22:05:54 <lambdabot> [EQ,EQ,LT,EQ,EQ,EQ,EQ,GT,LT,EQ,EQ,EQ,EQ,EQ,LT,GT,GT,EQ,EQ,GT,EQ,EQ,EQ,GT,GT,...
22:09:15 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (_2 ^. (last &&& length)) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 3 n),n)| n<-[1..]]
22:09:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘([(GHC.Types.Ordering, b1)] -> b)
22:09:28 <oerjan> no way that was going to work on first try
22:11:06 <quintopia> what is the goal, for those arriving in medias res?
22:11:20 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map last . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 3 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:12:10 <oerjan> quintopia: J_Arcane brought up the question of calculating the number of trailing zeros of n factorial
22:12:57 <J_Arcane> Yes. There's a simple solution, but it seems I've sparked an obfuscation contest by accident. ;)
22:13:11 <oerjan> then i thought, the method used depends on 5 being larger than 2, and each prime only occurs once as a factor of 10.
22:13:55 <oerjan> so i wondered if it could be more complicated in a base where the smaller prime factor _doesn't_ occur just once
22:14:11 <oerjan> 12 being the smallest example. and afaict the answer is yes
22:14:36 <quintopia> so the answer is just the quotient of n /5?
22:14:54 <oerjan> quintopia: n/5 + n/25 + n/125...
22:15:19 <J_Arcane> quintopia: REcursive integer division is the easiest way. `div` by 5, then divide that by 5, etc etc until it doesn't go.
22:15:48 <J_Arcane> > let zeros n = let r = n `div` 5 in if r == 0 then 0 else r + (zeros r) in zeros 1000000000
22:16:49 <oerjan> anyway, looking in base 12 for n up to 1000 the contributions from 2 and 3 switch between dominating, even up to 971.
22:17:41 <oerjan> although i think 3 does so most often
22:18:15 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fmap length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 3 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:18:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘(b0, b1)’ with ‘[a0]’
22:18:16 <lambdabot> Actual type: (b0, b1) -> b0Couldn't match expected type ‘[a0]’
22:18:39 <J_Arcane> I'm kind of a Lisper at heart, so I started off with a list mangling approach, ie. flip the result of n! and do takeWhile until I stop getting 0s, then count.
22:18:42 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 3 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:18:43 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[(GHC.Types.Ordering, b1)]’ with ‘(c, b0)’
22:18:43 <lambdabot> Expected type: [(GHC.Types.Ordering, b1)] -> c
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22:19:08 <J_Arcane> but the codewars execution window is only 6s, and one of the test cases was a ten-digit number.
22:19:23 <oerjan> quintopia: for 10 5 never dominates because the 2's count singly
22:20:28 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst.head &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 3 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:20:52 <oerjan> there you go. oh i was wrong about which dominates most often.
22:22:07 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst.head &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 5 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:22:35 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst.head &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 3)(sumIDiv 5 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:23:04 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst.head &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 4)(sumIDiv 5 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:23:17 <oerjan> ah 80 has a reasonable spread
22:23:30 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst.head &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 5)(sumIDiv 5 n),n)| n<-[1..1000]]
22:23:50 <oerjan> and then it gets clearcut the other way for 160
22:24:02 <quintopia> damn i would love to see a general result here
22:25:07 <quintopia> could you define "dominatr" rigorously?
22:26:11 <oerjan> well in general the number of zeros at the end of n! in base b is the _minimum_ of same for each prime power factor of b
22:26:22 <oerjan> so i'm asking which gives the most zeros
22:26:40 <oerjan> which is actually backwards for finding the minimum
22:28:14 <oerjan> and if b = p^i, then it's the number of zeros for p divided by i, naturally
22:28:52 <oerjan> and for a prime base you calculate it by the iterated division trick
22:30:03 <oerjan> so presumably the sumIDiv function is "jumpy" in a way that allows different bases to overtake each other by not too large constant multiples
22:30:30 <oerjan> probably involving a logarithm somewhere...
22:32:06 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (fst.head &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 4)(sumIDiv 5 n),n)| n<-[1..10000]]
22:32:58 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map last . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 2 n `div` 4)(sumIDiv 5 n),n)| n<-[1..10000]]
22:33:19 <oerjan> ok LT is rarer, but never completely extinct
22:38:55 <int-e> ah they're both n/4 - O(log n).
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22:46:42 <oerjan> ok so 1/p + 1/p^2 + ... = 1/(1-1/p) - 1 = p/(p-1) - 1 = 1/(p-1)
22:47:28 <oerjan> so indeed for 5, approximately division by 4, for 3, approximately division by 2, for 2, approximately the original
22:47:58 <int-e> oerjan: "they" were base 16 and 5, specificially, as in your last example.
22:48:16 <oerjan> int-e: it works to explain both 12 and 80 which were tested
22:48:31 <oerjan> to have constant fluctuations
22:49:16 <oerjan> well for 12 you have that both 3 and 4 are n/2 - O(log n), presumably
22:50:04 <oerjan> this means it might be a more fragile phenomenon than i suspected
22:50:15 <int-e> ah, that's what you did there.
22:50:19 <oerjan> there will probably be _no_ combination with 7 which works
22:50:52 <Solace> What are you persons talking about
22:51:22 <oerjan> int-e: i meant with the primes 2,3 and 5
22:51:29 <oerjan> but yeah that should work
22:51:49 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map last . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 7 n `div` 2)(sumIDiv 13 n),n)| n<-[1..10000]]
22:51:52 <int-e> also things like 7*3^3
22:52:12 <int-e> 2^n gives you 1/n.
22:52:35 <oerjan> quintopia: i wasn't thinking, you can always adjust the exponent to match
22:53:06 <oerjan> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map last . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 3 n `div` 3)(sumIDiv 7 n),n)| n<-[1..10000]]
22:53:46 <oerjan> oh that's last found, not amount. oh well good enough probably
22:53:47 <Solace> What am I looking at. And where can I learn it?
22:54:22 <int-e> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (last &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 3 n `div` 3)(sumIDiv 7 n),n)| n<-[1..10000]]
22:54:23 <lambdabot> [((LT,9998),691),((EQ,10000),4046),((GT,9995),5263)]
22:54:41 <int-e> > let sumIDiv p 0 = 0; sumIDiv p n | n' <- div n p = n' + sumIDiv p n' in map (last &&& length) . groupBy((==)`on`fst)$sort[(compare(sumIDiv 3 n `div` 3)(sumIDiv 7 n),n)| n<-[10001..20000]]
22:54:43 <lambdabot> [((LT,19943),1025),((EQ,20000),3272),((GT,19998),5703)]
22:54:45 <oerjan> Solace: the code is in haskell, although we're using it to calculate final zeroes of factorials in strange bases
22:55:08 <int-e> quintopia: it gives n/6, just like 7.
22:55:25 <Solace> lol well I've heard of that But I kinda gave up on haskell last week.
22:55:37 <int-e> sorry, messed that up.
22:55:45 <int-e> quintopia: you need to count factors of 2^4
22:55:52 <oerjan> Solace: haskell is a language many people give up on. some try again later until they get it.
22:56:06 <int-e> quintopia: which is the same as counting factors of 2 (and you get n - O(log n) of those), and then dividing by 4.
22:56:32 <Solace> For like maybe a month I Want to try something else
22:56:42 <Solace> Or just take a vacation from coding
22:57:29 <int-e> quintopia: (the n/p + n/p^2 + ... formula relies on p being a prime.)
22:59:01 <Solace> Also lots of Divs and im no where near that level of Haskelling oerjan I'm still getting stuff to print messages
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23:02:07 <oerjan> Solace: div is integer division. we're doing number theory after all.
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23:02:40 <Solace> I'm just saying a lot of divisiob in there
23:04:18 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..] -- obligatory haskell chestnut
23:04:20 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
23:05:03 <oerjan> myname: we discussed yesterday how that is technically not guaranteed portable
23:05:15 <pikhq> > (zip`ap`tail)[1..]
23:05:16 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7),(7,8),(8,9),(9,10),(10,11),(11,12),(12,...
23:05:33 <oerjan> because nubBy is supposed take an equivalence relation as argument
23:06:33 <int-e> but at least (((>1).).gcd) is symmetric and hence robust against differences between ghc's implementation and the Haskell language report.
23:06:46 <oerjan> > fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) -- other obligatory chestnut
23:06:47 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
23:07:32 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail the aztec god of consecutive numbers
23:09:45 <int-e> > let f = nubBy(((>1).).gcd) in f[6,5..2]
23:10:10 <oerjan> int-e: hm the O(log n) comes just from the rounding down of division, right
23:10:12 <int-e> > let f = nubBy(((>1).).gcd) in f[2..6]
23:11:43 <oerjan> and for powers of p that adjustment becomes O(1) instead
23:12:22 <int-e> while for powers of p-1, you get a maximal discrepancy.
23:12:51 <oerjan> that explains those frequent 9999 and 10000 in my tests above
23:13:59 <oerjan> and that should be enough to imply that if b = p^i * q^k has the right asymptotics to fluctuate in which prime dominates, then it will
23:14:22 <oerjan> i.e. if 1/i(p-1) == 1/k(q-1)
23:15:04 * oerjan suddenly feels sinful for not putting extra parens on the denominators
23:15:29 <int-e> let's pretend it was p^k * q^i ;-)
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23:17:55 <oerjan> mind you giving / a lower precedence is perfectly logical
23:19:16 <int-e> or giving juxtaposition a higher precedence than *
23:20:16 <int-e> In practice, on IRC, I treat 1/ab as ambiguous.
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23:35:33 <J_Arcane> Heresy can now do recursive lambdas.
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00:09:29 <AndoDaan> Does cluid still join the chat sometimes?
00:10:36 <boily> @ask cluid do you still come to #esoteric?
00:11:21 <AndoDaan> I never think of lambdabot, sorry lb. Thanks, boily.
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00:14:36 <boily> you have to understand the bots, connect with them, feel them. and then there are the Joy of fungot.
00:14:36 <fungot> boily: that sign is like, evil.'
00:14:43 <boily> fungot: no it ain't.
00:14:44 <fungot> boily: but provide their programs for free. in sdl wouldn't you have to restrict the quantity of os resources allocated ( fds, for example
00:14:56 <boily> fungot: no, it again ain't.
00:14:57 <fungot> boily: the only thing i do in mycology to load fingerprints for fnord it
00:15:11 <boily> mycological fingerprinting. interesting...
00:15:35 <AndoDaan> how do google a word with a bot again?
00:15:54 <AndoDaan> Or get the definition, I mean.
00:16:03 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%6d%79%63%6f%6c%6f%67%79' \ Alert!: Unable to access document. \ \
00:16:25 <boily> well, there was that one. it haven't been working for a loooong time.
00:17:12 <FireFly> For some definition of "get the definition"
00:17:29 <oren> mycology: the study of mushrooms and other funguses
00:17:43 <oren> i used a physical dictionary
00:19:06 <boily> there was also metasepia's ~duck...
00:19:08 <oren> it's true. i used the oxford pocket school dictionary,
00:21:58 <oren> i am an avid user of physical books
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00:22:25 <boily> oren: what is your opinion on new book smell?
00:23:25 <oren> it is delicious
00:30:00 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycology
00:30:00 <lambdabot> Title: Mycology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:30:19 <lambdabot> *** "mycology" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:30:19 <lambdabot> n 1: the branch of botany that studies fungi and fungus-caused
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00:54:35 <J_Arcane> https://ello.co/jarcane/post/NBUlE6Uez8fAaamoHryjRg
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02:00:24 <Taneb> I seem to have ended up in a Haskell meetup group
02:00:43 <oerjan> "it was inevitable, really"
02:01:10 <Taneb> It's not yet much of a group
02:01:16 <Taneb> Seeing as I am the second member
02:01:49 <oerjan> you need to work on your identity hth
02:02:31 <boily> Tanelle. weren't you the one who mistakenly participated to some fetishist group some time ago?
02:02:42 <HackEgo> 372) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills \ 1124) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
02:02:59 <Taneb> boily, that is a thing that happened, yes
02:03:08 <Taneb> I'm never going to live it down, either, am I?
02:03:32 <oerjan> it will be something to tell your grandchildren hth
02:03:42 <Taneb> oerjan, you're in easy travel distance of York, right?
02:04:00 <oerjan> that may be overstating it
02:04:09 <Taneb> Hey, the vikings managed it
02:04:25 <Taneb> And run a pizza takeaway down the road from here!
02:04:54 <Taneb> I presume all vikings came from your part of Norway
02:05:20 <oerjan> well it was a major population center
02:05:36 <oerjan> so not as wrong as it _could_ be
02:06:06 <boily> there's a pizza place near home. I should go there some day. they seem to have quite the hot sauce selection.
02:06:50 <Taneb> That sounds a lot better than Vikings'
02:07:00 <Taneb> Which really caters to the drunk student market
02:08:15 <oerjan> Taneb: do they have a logo with horned helmets, that's the way you know they're _really_ bad
02:08:50 <oerjan> stupid wagner-esque posers
02:09:22 <Taneb> http://www.vikingspizza.co.uk/
02:09:45 <Taneb> Oooh they have a variety of delicious cakes
02:10:30 <Taneb> Looking at the menu, a variety of precisely two delicious cakes
02:12:43 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(grammatical_number)
02:17:06 <Taneb> Well, goodnight I guess
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02:49:48 <quintopia> vikings with horns are better than real vikings.
02:50:33 * oerjan hits quintopia with the saucepan ===\__/
02:50:41 <oerjan> IT'S BETTER THAN AN AXE
02:52:50 <oerjan> at least in norwegian climate
02:53:44 <oerjan> actually the wind may have eased
02:54:07 <oerjan> we appear to be out of weather
02:56:09 <quintopia> well you have a better chance of knowing than I, on account of proximity
02:57:03 <oerjan> sadly i do not have a thermometer
02:57:40 <oerjan> for the weather, anyway. i'm not sure where my fever thermometer went during the move.
02:58:24 <oerjan> this website claims -5 degrees celsius
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04:01:20 <zzo38> I have idea I could add other kind of Auras that are combined with other types too, in Magic: the Gathering cards.
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04:56:26 <cluid> how do I get a random User: page?
05:02:58 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=&editsOnly=1&limit=50 has too many spammers in t
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05:13:25 <cluid> can I do my own SQL query on the site?
05:13:35 <cluid> I want to find users who have a user page and created at least 2 pages
05:20:21 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:BCompton nice batleships in befunge
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05:35:57 <zzo38> I don't think so, unless you download it and then convert it into SQL or to use a virtual table
05:36:09 <cluid> darn, thanks anyway
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06:32:57 <Sgeo> Superputin is a comic that exists.
06:52:18 <zzo38> I invented a "remote virtual table protocol" in order to implement SQLite virtual tables on an internet server.
06:53:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately I have not written an implementation of either the server or the client though.
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07:46:34 <int-e> mitchs: thanks for all the help on anagol btw (you're finding all those easy problems that I'm submitting Haskell solutions for)
07:47:38 <mitchs> glad to see henkma getting a bit of comeuppance
07:47:56 <int-e> I'm really surprised about http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Stagger+Encode+FIXED
07:49:31 <int-e> (Mainly because I don't think I did anything special. But the identical statistics are a nice touch.)
07:51:02 <int-e> But of course there are a number of problems that I've tried but where henkma still beats me. I'm evil and not submitting those.
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09:32:22 <Solace> dissapears into the elemental demiplane of Ranch Dressing
09:48:42 <Taneb> Oooh, I saw 2 magpies this morning
09:50:57 <Sgeo> Rust currently has an easter egg that bloats output size
09:54:53 <int-e> @google rust easter egg
09:54:54 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTSaNbUgqlo
09:55:01 <int-e> I think that's the wrong one...
10:00:08 <Taneb> https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/13871
10:06:06 <lambdabot> PArse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
10:06:12 <lambdabot> Can't combine named fields with locally-quantified type variables or context
10:06:20 <lambdabot> scavenge_stack: weird activation record found on stack
10:06:34 <int-e> Hmm, I was hoping for a more snarky one (ghc has a couple)
10:06:51 <int-e> (no lengthy quotes though)
10:07:38 <lambdabot> ghc says: Qualified name in function definition
10:07:48 <lambdabot> ghc says: Use -fcontext-stack20 to increase stack size to (e.g.) 20
10:08:09 <Jafet> @quote ghc cunning
10:08:09 <lambdabot> ghc says: even with cunning newtype deriving the newtype is recursive
10:08:35 <Jafet> @quote ghc interest
10:08:35 <lambdabot> ghc says: Interesting! A join var that isn't let-no-escaped
10:09:17 <lambdabot> ghc says: Kinds don't match in type application
10:09:23 <lambdabot> ghc says: Urk! Inventing strangely-kinded void TyCon: :t{tc a5gUj} (* -> *) -> * -> *
10:10:07 <lambdabot> ghc says: Interesting! A join var that isn't let-no-escaped
10:10:10 <lambdabot> ghc says: Urk! Inventing strangely-kinded void TyCon: ZCt{tc a2AN} (* -> *) -> * -> *
10:10:13 <lambdabot> ghc says: yi-static: internal error: TSO object entered!
10:10:19 <lambdabot> ghc says: ARGH! Jump uses %esi or %edi with -monly-2-regs
10:10:28 <zzo38> When making up the "proper" rules of Aberration Hater Card Game I want to design it properly by writing the rules as a literate computer program, rather than doing what Magic: the Gathering and other similar card games do, which results in some mistakes.
10:11:10 <Jafet> Will you use an existing language, or create a new language for describing card effects?
10:11:54 <zzo38> I believe it may be necessary to make up a new one. I am not completely sure, but it seems like it would help.
10:13:16 <b_jonas> you could use an existing language with some domain-specific library you write
10:13:36 <b_jonas> and lots of restrictions on what the card and rules part of the program is allowed to do
10:13:54 <b_jonas> but, well, if you write it, you decide on what's the most convenient for you
10:17:48 <zzo38> Making up new cards with new effects should not generally require changing the program for the game rules. There needs to be triggers too, as well as replacement effects supported, etc.
10:20:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, that's the theory. for most cards like Kin-Tree Warden it's certainly true. but experience seems to show that every set has a dozen of cards or some mechanics that do require changing the base rules to support them.
10:22:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, although sometimes it is only adding keyword abilities.
10:22:22 <zzo38> Can you give examples?
10:27:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: in some sets maybe. but I think if you never have to modify the core rules (in compatible ways that don't affect games with only old cards) then you're probably not doing innovative sets enough
10:28:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: Very often, new cards require you to track state or triggers that you didn't have to track before, which I think usually requires you to modify the core implementation.
10:28:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: Also, often there are new kinds of static effects affecting things that couldn't be changed so far, so you have to add new checks in existing routines.
10:34:51 <b_jonas> Magic has some crazy interactions. There are like five cards plus the commander rules that make lands produce colorless mana instead of some color, while keeping any restrictions on spending that mana. And then there's Celestial Dawn which makes you spend mana as if it was a different color, while still keeping its other restrictions.
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10:43:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: But then, maybe the game you're making is very different from M:tG. I can't tell because I'm not familiar with other collectible card games.
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10:46:10 <zzo38> I am talking about designing the programming language so that it can allow you to not have to deal with changing the rules to track new state/triggers/effects in most cases; the compiler would automatically add these checks.
10:46:22 <int-e> 101.1 sounds fun to implement
10:48:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: sounds like difficult, but ok, good luck
10:49:26 <b_jonas> Tell us if you have success.
10:49:32 <zzo38> 101.1 consists of two parts. The first part, I would hope designing the programming language so that you can very easily state such a rule. For the second part (about conceding), it would be part of the host program instead; the rules would only mention it as what is effectively a comment (since it is a literate program, the main text with no corresponding program code).
10:52:16 <int-e> . o O ( "Challenge Death", {U}{U}{U}{U}{U}{U}, Enchantment. If you would lose the game, the game becomes governed by the FIDE Laws of Chess instead. A game of chess is placed under rapid time controls, and the winner of that chess game becomes the winner of the game. In case of a draw, you lose. )
10:52:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: actually, "can concede any time" has to be sort of handled by both the host program and the rules. the rules have to handle how the game state changes in multiplayer when someone concedes (in two-player you don't have to track the game state after conceding anymore). the tournament or floor rules part has to handle conceding so a player can leave any time, and in that case he definitely loses, even if the rules part is buggy and says he doesn't.
10:54:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: Actually, I realized that in a game with more than two players that is necessary.
10:54:34 <b_jonas> int-e: who plays white in chess? it's important because the white player is flavored by chess itself, but the black player is slightly flavored by M:tG because his pieces are more difficult to remove because there's lots of spot removal for non-black like Doom Blade.
10:55:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: the effect 101.1 has on the rules part is that the rules have to support players getting removed _any_ time, even in the middle of crazy effects.
10:55:14 <Jafet> Clearly you play pairs of games until the score becomes uneven
10:55:26 <int-e> b_jonas: hmm, good question.
10:55:41 <b_jonas> And has to support multiple player leaving the game in rapid succession too of course.
10:55:54 <int-e> I pictured the challenger would get the white pieces (but draw disadvantage)
10:56:59 <int-e> b_jonas: all players losing an MtG game is a possible outcome, isn't it?
10:57:07 <b_jonas> int-e: in Casey and Andy webcomics, when Quantum Cop challenged Death, Quantum Cop got white
10:57:14 <b_jonas> int-e: yes. it's called a draw.
10:57:23 <b_jonas> int-e: it can happen even without conceding.
10:57:32 <b_jonas> int-e: it's just that the game is balanced so that it rarely happens,
10:57:42 <b_jonas> because draws make tournaments take more real time
10:58:19 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah. but two players conceding the game simultaneously is also unlikely to happen in practice :)
10:58:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, exactly that, if more than two players. (However, in some formats the game always ends when conceding even if more than two players, for example Two Headed Giant.)
10:58:28 <int-e> b_jonas: so I don't see that as a particular problem.
10:58:28 <b_jonas> int-e: The goal is sort of similar to the problem in football where teams get too defensive and so there are too many draws and tie breakers, which is bad for spectators.
10:58:45 <b_jonas> int-e: however, M:tG has never had that problem seriously I think
10:58:57 <b_jonas> int-e: "unlikely to happen in practice" -- do you know what channel you are?
10:59:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: 2HG doesn't matter, because the rules say if a player concedes his whole team is removed from the game, so it's sort of like single player
10:59:41 <b_jonas> oh right, that's what you said
11:00:13 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm just assuming that one of the players involved is not on this channel but geniunely interested in winning :P
11:01:39 <b_jonas> int-e: in theory, multiple players conceding in quick succession can handle in some kinds of cheating, when the judge hands out game loss for the violation to multiple players who cheat together, but as such multipleyer games don't happen in tournaments it's probably not a common occurrance
11:02:16 <b_jonas> hmm, what happens if someone is excluded from the tournament for cheating during a draft? how can the draft continue?
11:02:18 <zzo38> For writing the cards themself, the same programming language is probably used, but instead of literate programming, natural language programming with user-defined templates, is used. It isn't quite natural language though, because it also includes markup, formatting, explicit code, etc. For example, text in square brackets might be treated as a comment when compiling, but still rendered (although without the brackets).
11:03:16 <b_jonas> also, what happens if someone concedes and leaves the table (for urgent matters like his child is ill) during a draft (without cheating)?
11:04:30 <zzo38> Parentheses might do the same but the parentheses are rendered and the text is italicized in such a case. Perhaps there might be formatting codes with \ to change the rendering, and maybe [+ ... +] or other delimiters might be used to include explicit code which is not rendered at all. For int-e's example, a lot of explicit code would be used, since you would put in all the rules of chess, although the card would just say "chess" so put "chess" in
11:05:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: IMO that chess card is an un-card, so it doesn't need rules support
11:05:58 <b_jonas> (other than an informal FAQ)
11:08:46 <zzo38> Yes you would certainly be right, but still, I am saying how it would be done if you wanted it to be a real card (although of course the user interface would be strange in such a case, not like a normal chess game, if playing by computer with a host program that doesn't have the interface for this card explicitly programmed in).
11:09:56 <zzo38> Of course it isn't a card you would actually make except as a un-card, but it hasn't to do with hypothetical things I am saying.
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11:13:59 <zzo38> To give an example of how this "explicit code" becomes used, int-e's card might be typed as follows: If you would lose the game, [+ ... +] [the game becomes governed by the FIDE Laws of Chess] instead. [...] except that you wouldn't actually type "..." but instead the actual explicit codes and comment texts, respectively.
11:15:30 <b_jonas> the chess pieces are tokens, not cards, right? they're not wished into your game so you don't get to keep them if you chess inside a Saharazad subgame
11:18:20 <zzo38> I would say they are neither; the program inside the [+ ... +] would just provide a list of choices to the player, update its internal variables, and then provide choices to the other player, and so on. You wouldn't actually be able to program in the time controls in this way, so it still is a Un-card. But you could still implement the rules of chess with this!
11:19:13 <zzo38> (Although like I explained earlier, it also wouldn't display the chess board if played on a computer program which implements the "generic" rules.)
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11:40:14 <zzo38> O, one thing too about what I am thinking of, which is that if you add new cards, although you probably won't have to modify the rules, you would have to recomple them.
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12:37:30 <J_Arcane> http://yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machines.html
12:45:00 <J_Arcane> There are Lovecraft quotes in the Rust standard library: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs
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12:50:15 <int-e> J_Arcane: okay... what is the primary source for the latter information? reddit? you're the second one to bring it up today :P
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13:03:13 <b_jonas> Suppose I activate Deathrite Shaman's first ability to gain mana, keeping priority, then I cast Cytoshape to make that creature a copy of an animated Forest, and then resolve the activated ability. Can I spend the mana it produces to pay part of the mana cost for casting an Imperiosaur?
13:09:09 <J_Arcane> int-e: someone filed an issue about it and it made the front page of HN.
13:09:33 <int-e> b_jonas: This ruling about Cytoshape seems relevant: "This effect can cause the target to stop being a creature. For example, if it becomes a copy of an animated Blinkmoth Nexus, the printed wording will be copied and it will become an unanimated Blinkmoth Nexus."
13:11:18 <int-e> J_Arcane: I see. It's funny because the issue is 7 months old...
13:11:51 <J_Arcane> It's still in too, they kept it, and have rejected at least one pull request to remove it.
13:12:46 <int-e> at least #20035 is not rejected yet.
13:12:47 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, the permanent certainly becomes a basic land
13:13:29 <b_jonas> int-e: my question is what Imperiosaur really checks: whether the permanent was a basic land when I activated the ability, or when the mana actually gets added to my pool (which is when the ability resolves)
13:13:36 <int-e> b_jonas: then I would assume that its mana works for the Imperiosaur. (That's a funny ability though - I didn't know that mana is tracked to its origins.)
13:14:09 <b_jonas> int-e: you could also imagine this backwards but that's even crazier, with an animated basic land first gaining Deathrite Shaman's ability using Kraj, then becoming a copy of something other than a basic land
13:14:14 <int-e> well, ability. it's a restriction...
13:14:18 <b_jonas> which should have the opposit result
13:14:37 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, tracking the mana is exactly what has brought Imperiosaur to my mind:
13:15:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you implement Imperiosaur the first time, do you imagine you could do that without having to modify the core rules program?
13:15:43 <b_jonas> int-e: before Imperiosaur, there were effects that produced mana with restrictions, but those restrictions were given when the mana was _produced_, not when it was consumed
13:16:03 <b_jonas> I think even Alpha has such a restricted mana producer
13:17:08 <int-e> b_jonas: I think I have trouble resolving "that" and "it" in what you wrote initially.
13:18:46 <int-e> b_jonas: but your answer may simply be that mana abilities don't use the stack.
13:21:54 <int-e> I should've seen that sooner, but hey, I have never more than dabbled in MtG (I don't even have cards of my own) and that's been 8 to 5 years ago...
13:22:44 <int-e> obviously I have retained some interest in the rules (because they're crazy...).
13:24:56 <int-e> b_jonas: the other thing is that the mana producer is the Deathrite Shaman, not the land that it's removing from the game.
13:25:42 <int-e> b_jonas: so all in all I don't know what you tried to do there, except that I suspect that it didn't work.
13:26:17 <myname> whoever likes english with a REAL hard german accent watch from 50:00: Cyber Necromancy - Reverse Engineering Dead Proto…: http://youtu.be/fIAKzzlJ67w
13:32:30 <int-e> Zis is vat happens if you organise a congress in Germany...
13:33:02 <myname> well, there ARE german people capable of pronouncing english sentences
13:33:05 <int-e> myname: is it a good talk?
13:34:30 <myname> it's okay, but i thought it would be more technical
13:34:54 <myname> it's just "oh look, we have repeating patterns. turns out, it is xor"
13:35:48 <int-e> b_jonas: Ok, I tried parsing that again, and decided that "that creature" is the Shaman. In which case, the mana ability resolves immediately (since it doesn't go onto the stack) and there's no way to cast Cytoshape in the meantime.
13:36:53 <myname> int-e: also to be fair: english is a HORRIBLE language in regards of pronounciation
13:37:12 <int-e> myname: Oh don't get me started.
13:37:22 <myname> like: tough, tought, though, through; mature, nature
13:37:31 <int-e> For example, I'm *still* upset about "infinite" versus "finite".
13:38:12 <myname> yeah, i had taught in mind
13:38:24 <myname> but finite vs infinite is a nice example
13:39:01 <oren> fainaite infinit
13:40:07 <myname> usually i refered to ghoti, but i do think that finite/infinite is even better
13:40:21 <elliott> ghoti isn't actually a word.
13:40:24 <oren> the solution is sim ple
13:40:44 <elliott> I can make up ridiculous fake things too :p
13:40:55 <oren> write english with chinese characters
13:41:05 <myname> elliott: all it says is that you have no real way of telling how to pronounce stuff you've never heard
13:41:12 <oren> then spelling is based on meaning, and prnounciation can go hang
13:41:15 <myname> you may make good guesses
13:41:27 <elliott> ghoti is like taking a bunch of things out of context and then shoving them together
13:41:43 <elliott> of course devoid of any kind of contextual patterns and specifically picking out odd things you can make something weird.
13:42:05 <elliott> like. it's a funny joke but it doesn't really make much of a point, other than the obvious one that "english pronunciation is not simple and systematic"
13:42:20 <myname> the question is: why is the context capable of making an o sound like an i
13:42:20 <oren> wel wood yoo perfer if ai roht laik dhis?
13:42:29 <myname> that just shouldn't be possible
13:43:16 <olsner> "women" is one place where o sounds like i
13:44:02 <int-e> myname: have you seen http://www.mipmip.org/tidbits/pronunciation.shtml ?
13:44:03 <oren> because spoken language changed and spelling didn't
13:44:56 <elliott> myname: may I recommend lojban?
13:45:32 <oren> enyway, wee kan djust rait laik dhis fruhm nau awn
13:45:43 <myname> elliott: i'd learn either that or esperanto if i'd actually have somewhere to speak it
13:46:14 <oren> japan had a spelling reform in '49 that was successful
13:46:30 <oren> the old spellings were FUBAR
13:48:46 <oren> soree, ai ment: djapan had a speling r'form in '49 dhat was suksesf'l. thee old spelingz wrr foobar
13:49:51 <oren> of course, the fact that 'ee' is pronounced like japanese イ is a whole other problem
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14:02:19 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the ability doesn't resolve immediately, because it's not a mana ability, because it's targetted. that's why I chose Deathrite Shaman in particular, being one of the very few cards having such an ability.
14:03:46 <Jafet> English has ample examples.
14:06:27 <b_jonas> myname: yes, "finite" and "infiniite" is one of those things. there's the similar "sign" and "signal", and there's "cycle" and "bicycle". probably half of these is explained by stress shift.
14:07:11 <myname> cycle and bicycle got me sometimes
14:07:21 <b_jonas> "signal" still has the stress on the first syllable I believe, so stress shift can't explain that
14:07:28 <myname> i was pretty unsure on how to write bicycle as a child
14:07:53 <myname> because i thought "hey, if there were cycle at the end, it would sound like it hat, wouldn't it?"
14:08:42 <b_jonas> myname: I'm unsure how to write many of the words with "y" used as a vowel in them. I have a handy list
14:08:50 <Jafet> Cohammer and bisickle
14:09:24 <b_jonas> no, a bisickle would be a tractor for reaping
14:10:05 <b_jonas> oh, "number" versus all the words start with "numer-" also have crazy pronunciation differences
14:10:38 <b_jonas> and here's my spelling help list of words with "y" as a vowel: hygiene, etymology, mysterious, Odyssey, myopia, carbohydrate
14:11:20 <myname> as a german: they are easy
14:11:56 <myname> the y in all of them sounds more like ü than i
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14:21:50 <int-e> b_jonas: Right, thanks. So there are three times the source might be checked: a) when activating the mana-producing ability b) when resolving said ability c) when actually spending the mana... of those, a) doesn't make much sense to me, but the other two are plausible.
14:23:47 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, I didn't think of (c) as a possibility
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14:44:41 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Superputin is a comic that exists. <-- i don't think this is surprising to _anyone_ who's vaguely followed news about russia hth
14:45:16 <oerjan> my only questions is whether it's a comic worshiping him or one ridiculing him
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14:54:15 <oerjan> @tell cluid https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RandomInCategory
14:54:37 <oerjan> @tell cluid oops misread
14:56:08 <int-e> oerjan: I survived henkma's attack on Kimariji :)
14:56:12 <oerjan> @tell cluid no random, but https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=2
14:57:05 <oerjan> int-e: i sort of suspected you would since it took him so long to submit
14:57:32 <oerjan> although his statistics are quite different...
14:59:49 <int-e> oerjan: _ isn't counted as a letter, for example
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15:04:41 <int-e> but yeah, I'd have to think about matching henkma's statistics. so much whitespace...
15:06:09 <int-e> ah, that wasn't so hard.
15:06:47 <int-e> I could get up to 40 alphanums, and 7 whitespace.
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15:09:02 <int-e> oerjan: btw, http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Red+Balloon+Locations is a mystery to me. (63 is easy)
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15:10:03 <b_jonas> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Kimariji
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16:03:46 <vanila> can you tell me a bit about Endo ICFP problem?
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16:14:43 <b_jonas> vanila: um, what do you want to know. have you found the link to the blog and task specs of the ICFP contest that year?
16:15:05 <vanila> is there esolangs inside it
16:15:24 <vanila> i just saw that you have to change a picture to get close to a target picture
16:15:33 <vanila> and i guess its generated by some code you edit
16:15:46 <b_jonas> um, the esolangs in it are the Fuun RNA and Fuun DNA, custom-made for that contest. That might count as one or two esoteric languages.
16:15:59 <b_jonas> They're specified right in the task specs.
16:16:05 <vanila> sory if you dont want to talk about it I can stop bugging you
16:16:32 <b_jonas> it depends, have I put link to the contest webpage?
16:17:00 <b_jonas> I don't know much about that task other than what's on the contest blog and task specs, plus a few descriptions I've read by teams participating
16:17:03 <vanila> its in your todo list on wiki user page
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16:17:26 <b_jonas> right, that links to the contest homepage, from which it's easy to find the task spec http://save-endo.cs.uu.nl/Endo.pdf
16:17:36 <b_jonas> that should be enough links for a stub
16:20:22 <b_jonas> vanila: basically the DNA is a custom string-substitution based self-modifying language
16:20:53 <vanila> ok it sounds interesting!
16:20:54 <b_jonas> and what the program eventually evolves to is ran as Fuun RNA which is a strange very limited pixel-based drawing language
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16:29:35 <J_Arcane> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.fi/2015/01/if-scheme-were-like-scheme.html
16:30:51 <elliott> if it is then I once emailed J_Arcane
16:31:28 <J_Arcane> my blog is http://jarcane.github.io/
16:32:43 <int-e> "Floating-point numbers would be called “inexact rationals”. Their constructor would take a numerator and denominator, just like exact rationals" <-- this felt eerily familiar
16:33:18 <elliott> that post hurts because it kind of captures exactly what's sad about scheme
16:33:27 <int-e> > 1.552134e-10 :: Rational
16:34:23 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
16:40:33 <vanila> wow J_Arcane, so Heresy is hitting the bigtime
16:41:04 <int-e> the compiler produces that as a literal, ouch.
16:41:35 <oerjan> int-e: i recall that could crash the compiler once, don't know if they fixed it
16:42:23 <oerjan> oh iirc even if you used it for a Double
16:42:24 <int-e> trying... 1e1000000 :: Rational gobbles up lots of memory...
16:42:31 <oerjan> > 1e100000000 :: Double
16:43:50 <vanila> how do you put a picture into github commits?
16:44:41 <J_Arcane> github has emoji support of a kind.
16:44:54 <J_Arcane> other than that I don't think you can.
16:45:26 <vanila> thanks, I can use emoji in my commits now
16:45:31 <vanila> http://www.emoji-cheat-sheet.com/
16:47:03 <int-e> hehe, I'm preaching that one should have a swap partition so much ... but fail to follow my own advice... one reboot later...
16:47:31 <int-e> (I should've killed ghc when it reached 6GB (of 8GB RAM))
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16:48:51 <int-e> (reason for the swap partition is that one wants to give the kernel a chance to swap out *data* instead of mmap-ed program code when memory becomes exhausted...)
16:51:29 <int-e> there, added some swap.
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16:53:47 <lambdabot> "3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
16:54:10 <lambdabot> "3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
16:54:30 <newsham> try it in privmsg to lambdabot
16:54:32 <int-e> you'll get more digits in /msg
16:54:49 <vanila> J_Arcane, It is also now the most well-recieved project I’ve ever released, netting 18 stars on Github, almost 3,000 vistors to the repo, and a whole day near the top of Hacker News’ front page.
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17:05:36 <vanila> J_Arcane, what do you want to self host it for and what woudl that mean
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17:21:20 <J_Arcane> vanila: well, I'm not necessarily set on actually self-hosting Heresy, but a direct implementation as opposed to existing as a macro layer would give me a lot more control over things.
17:21:53 <J_Arcane> As it stands, the more 'different' something is from how Racket works, the more down the rabbit-hole of obscure macro transformers and other insanity you have to go.
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18:02:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41668&oldid=40672 * Rottytooth * (-184) /* External resources */ removed dead link
18:03:16 <oren> newsham: showcereal
18:05:14 <oren> > showCReal 10 pi
18:05:25 <J_Arcane> i wonder why i seem to see so many esolangs on .net.
18:06:02 <oren> .net the environment or .net the TLD?
18:15:26 <int-e> Well, better than Java.
18:16:14 <oren> Java is C++++ and C# is C++++++
18:16:16 <int-e> (if only because the .net runtime developers could learn from the jvm's developers' mistakes)
18:17:25 <myname> there is this quote "java is in many aspects c++--"
18:17:26 <int-e> And evolution; I mean, when the java bytecode was designed, I don't think anybody expected JIT compilation. If they had I bet the bytecode would look different.
18:17:59 <int-e> .net otoh was designed very much with JIT compilation in mind.
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18:34:43 <pikhq> Yeah, weren't the first few iterations of the JVM bytecode interpreters?
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18:58:07 <olsner> iirc the jvm spec claims the bytecode is designed to be input to a compiler, but maybe the plan was install-time compilation rather than JIT
19:00:20 <J_Arcane> pikhq: yeah, JIT didn't come until HotSpot IIRC.
19:00:31 <J_Arcane> Early Java made Python look like C. :P
19:02:52 <mroman> did python have JIT when Java came out?
19:02:53 <J_Arcane> I am still baffled as to how it gained any serious support at all, and yet somehow it seemed to be an unstoppable force, like some looming inevitable task we'd just have to accept anyway. Java is the dirty catbox of programming languages.
19:03:31 <pikhq> Sun had a god damned impressive marketing effort.
19:04:06 <mroman> I don't know what other OOP languages were popular when Java came out
19:04:20 <mroman> but if C++ was the only good competitor I totally get why Java got so popular
19:04:23 <pikhq> And it came at just the right time, when the common OS was suddenly becoming Microsoft "we don't even support C well" Windows.
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19:07:49 <J_Arcane> mroman: CPython *still* doesn't have JIT I don't think. It's just that Java was that slow in those days. I think partly why it took off more in business than in consumer applications was that it was unbearably slow on consumer hardware.
19:08:30 <pikhq> And businesses were often coming up from COBOL on mainframes.
19:09:05 <pikhq> In that context it doesn't even matter if it's fast or not -- the programs are really simple, but they ran on stupidly expensive platforms.
19:11:02 <J_Arcane> myname: in the late 90s, OOP was going to save us all.
19:11:27 <myname> they did pretty stupid stuff that time
19:14:30 <MDude> It was also originally an attempt an making AI.
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19:20:27 <mroman> I thought that's what Lisp was for
19:21:32 <MDude> I guess not OOP so much as objects.
19:22:38 <MDude> It's just the first language mentioned in the Wikipedia article on OOP mentions "objects" in computer programming goes back to Lisp.
19:25:18 <TieSoul> it works when it works and doesn't when it doesn't.
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19:25:42 <TieSoul> and by works I mean fits the problem at hand
19:26:05 <oren> OOP is good, but only if you understand that OOP doesn't just mean a programming language that looks like SVO grammar
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19:26:31 <oren> which is what many people seem to think it is
19:27:38 <TieSoul> wait people actually think that?
19:28:11 <int-e> a great many concepts tend to be tied to a particular syntax :/
19:28:55 <TieSoul> like functional programming
19:29:15 <myname> yeah, lambda calculus :p
19:29:25 <oren> some people think functional programming = lisp
19:29:48 <int-e> oren: actually, besides lisp, can you name another language where method invocation doesn't look that way?
19:31:04 <oren> fputs("hello, world\n",f)
19:32:00 <TieSoul> btw, is there object-oriented esolanga?
19:33:00 <myname> what is "a method invocation that looks that way"?
19:33:19 <oren> file.print(string) like that
19:33:34 <oren> obj.method(arg)
19:33:41 <myname> why should it look different?
19:33:42 <TieSoul> you could say racket but that'd be cheating
19:33:58 <oren> as opposed to lisp (method obj args)
19:34:02 <int-e> oren: Ok, I meant a language that claims to support OO (rather than allowing to implement OO because there really isn't much to it, conceptually, just some function pointers...)
19:34:26 <int-e> myname: "that way" = SVO.
19:35:00 <TieSoul> btw I tried implementing a simple scripting language some time ago.
19:35:16 <TieSoul> Here's the results: a weird language that's a cross between Ruby and C-style languages
19:35:16 <int-e> The fact that C puts the FILE* argument last trips me up a lot...
19:35:19 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/cotton-lang
19:35:31 <J_Arcane> In Heresy it's either (send obj field ...) or just ((object field) ...) But Heresy is weird.
19:36:01 <TieSoul> but seriously don't use cotton
19:36:25 <TieSoul> but it's an interpreted language interpreted in Ruby. What do you expect
19:36:39 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I was gonna say, that's what I would expect.
19:37:18 <TieSoul> and it has OOP without inheritance
19:38:08 <J_Arcane> Heresy's objects are immutable.
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19:38:26 <J_Arcane> they're basically just structs that can take methods and return copies of themselves.
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19:41:08 <J_Arcane> they don't have proper inheritance either, because they're immutable: you can define Foo with three fields, and you can make a copy of Foo, but it'll always have those same three fields; you can't make Bar that's a Foo with 2 extra fields, for instance.
19:41:39 <J_Arcane> You could however probably expand it easily enough to support that behavior though.
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19:51:50 <oren> i think classes are the bad idea in OO
19:53:00 <oren> instead there should be interfaces,
19:55:10 <oren> and creator functions
19:55:16 <tswett> Sometimes you're only ever going to have one class implementing an interface.
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19:57:56 <oren> classes, as a syntax element, tie together interface and implementation
19:59:51 <oren> also the distinction between members and methods is a bad idea
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20:00:12 <myname> haskell style type classes rock
20:00:25 <oren> C void pointers at least help by disabling public members
20:01:05 <oren> funny how void* is so encapsulated
20:03:53 <oren> it is not used by ANY natural language
20:04:42 <oren> ok, i'm doing that
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20:05:57 <oren> idea: stack-based object-oriented
20:08:25 <b_jonas> yay, I'm copying files to another user with rsync -e "sudo -u"
20:08:47 <elliott> -u" looks like a weird emoticon
20:09:17 <b_jonas> elliott: what, like a horse or something?
20:11:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ,u,"-: not found
20:19:29 <J_Arcane> oren: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-objects.html
20:21:12 <Vorpal> fizzie is moving right? Probably explains why I haven't seen him for a few days
20:27:11 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, still takes some time to settle in I guess. He hasn't replied to my lambdabot message to him
20:27:32 <elliott> I mean, he's talked since moving.
20:28:10 <Vorpal> A lot? Or just "Hi, I didn't die during travel"?
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20:41:14 <fizzie> Probably less than usual.
20:42:05 <fizzie> I don't think I'll be out of "travel mode" before we find a permanent place to live.
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20:52:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so did you see that panorama from over a week ago by now?
20:52:31 <fizzie> I think I saw it before I left, but then we were kind of getting ready to go.
20:53:34 <fizzie> Is it from a bird-watching tower?
20:54:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, not a bird watching tower though
20:54:34 <Vorpal> As in, not specifically for birds
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20:56:38 <fizzie> There's a similar one back in Otaniemi that's specifically for birds.
20:57:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I also experimented with the photosphere thingy in the Google camera app, haven't uploaded those yet though
20:59:37 <fizzie> I've been thinking of doing that. And I think you can these days also upload (suitable-projection) images into the Photo Sphere web thing.
20:59:47 <fizzie> Gah, Dropbox-uploading makes this connection incredibly laggy.
20:59:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, Photo Sphere web thing?
21:00:31 <Vorpal> Anyway I wasn't too impressed with it
21:01:49 <fizzie> Yeah, I haven't tried the stitching app at all.
21:02:18 <fizzie> But the rest of the thing (the viewer and the "put it on Google Maps" and so on) is usable independently, you can stitch with Hugin and just upload.
21:02:27 <MDude> Oh I'm scrolled up.
21:02:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, the issue is that it doesn't do constant exposure, so if there is a high dynamic range it looks weird
21:02:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and not good at handling parallax
21:03:04 <MDude> Also, I know ORK is an object-oriented esolang.
21:03:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://www.dropbox.com/l/sl3nqxnT5JBqZLdt0ZsOLu -- here are some birds I photographed alongside the River Thames today. And also one thing that's not strictly speaking a bird.
21:04:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that an amphibious *bus*?
21:05:28 <Vorpal> Also what camera and lens did you use for the birds? I found telelenses made it hard to find the bloody things and not having tele-lenses means you can't see them in the photos
21:06:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a Canon EF-S 55-250mm thing.
21:06:58 <fizzie> Basically their cheapest tele thing.
21:09:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, what the heck is that non-bird?
21:09:23 <Vorpal> Tourist thing I assume
21:09:28 <fizzie> It's exactly what it looks like.
21:09:38 <fizzie> Am amphibious tourist bus kind of thing.
21:09:57 <fizzie> I've seen it drive around the streets, I've seen it in the river, and now I've seen it transition too.
21:09:59 <Vorpal> Why, it will just be like riding a boat, and then riding a car
21:10:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, it just drives up the shore I assume?
21:10:23 <Vorpal> I guess loose sand could be an issue
21:10:40 <fizzie> There's a sloping road thing, I forget what the official name for it is.
21:10:57 <fizzie> Yes, but something more specific.
21:11:09 <fizzie> There was a sign saying what it is, and how it's for commercial use.
21:11:29 <Vorpal> Is that a converted bus, a converted boat or purpose-built?
21:11:54 <Vorpal> Maybe a re-purposed old military thingy?
21:11:57 <fizzie> That I don't know. Also, I don't know what it uses for propulsion when in water mode. Perhaps there's a propeller somewhere in the back.
21:12:24 <fizzie> It also does a very very short loop in the river, I'm guessing it's not terribly practical.
21:12:44 <Vorpal> I don't think amphibious cars are in general.
21:12:47 <fizzie> They have at least two, because I've got photos with both a "Titania" (that one) and a "Miranda".
21:13:22 <fizzie> Oh, and apparently also a "Elizabeth", so at least three.
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21:15:55 <fizzie> Apparently they were banned from driving that thing into the river (rendering it doubly pointless) at some point, but I guess that ban was lifted.
21:15:59 <Vorpal> I started reading up on amphibious vehicles
21:16:09 <Vorpal> I found this strange and wonderful thingy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw-propelled_vehicle
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21:16:55 <Vorpal> I don't know what to say
21:17:45 <fizzie> "With the occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany in World War II, the quixotic Geoffrey Pyke --" oh, Pyke again.
21:18:18 <fizzie> That's the guy with the aircraft carrier made out of ice (Project Habakkuk).
21:20:00 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
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21:21:33 <fizzie> Re the duck bus, "Each Duck seats up to 30 people and we have a fleet of 9 Ducks",
21:22:35 <Vorpal> That is weird and wonderful
21:23:46 <fizzie> "“You need me on your staff,” the shabbily dressed man [Pyke] explained to Lord Mountbatten, “because I’m a man who thinks.”"
21:38:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amfibiefiets_Amphibious_bicycle.jpg
21:40:06 <fizzie> I've seen a modern thing like that in a bike blog.
21:40:53 <fizzie> Well, not "like that" in that it'd be very similar in execution, only in concept.
21:43:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, this thing is primarily a boat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iguana_29_plage.jpg
21:47:22 <Vorpal> Also this looks silly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_2A4_-_Turm.jpg
21:50:28 <Vorpal> This is pretty strange as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_tractor
21:50:35 <Vorpal> Though this is perhaps stranger still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_and_Rottingdean_Seashore_Electric_Railway
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22:11:14 <zzo38> What I was thinking about this kind of programming language to write rules of Aberration Hater Card Game, Pokemon Card, Magic: the Gathering, etc I would expect to resemble a kind of strongly-typed Lisp. Most data types, including a few built-in types such as ACTION and EVENT and CONDITION, are extensible by adding more constructors and/or fields; other extensions to the rules are also possible. Duplicate extensions are redundant.
22:12:22 <Vorpal> Duplicate extensions are redundant. <-- that is a redundant statement
22:13:01 <zzo38> I mean specifically that it isn't an error.
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22:23:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Didn't I see that last one in a Agatha Christie thing?
22:24:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, it was the sea tractor, and it's even mentioned on the page.
22:24:22 <fizzie> "The Burgh Island sea tractor also appears as the method of transport between the mainland and the island in Evil Under the Sun (2001 film) TV series of ITV's Agatha Christie's Poirot."
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22:36:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeteufel
22:36:54 <fizzie> Or the linked-to http://web.archive.org/web/20110927182658/http://www.dataphone.se/~ms/ubootw/boats_type-seeteufel.htm since the wiki'ticle is not very good.
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22:57:08 <oerjan> <myname> why not prolog? <-- iiuc, during the first ai era, lisp was the language of choice in the us but prolog was the language of choice in europe
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22:58:58 <lambdabot> Local time for myname is Sun Jan 11 23:58:57 2015
22:59:26 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
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23:03:48 <boily> oerjan: Բարի իրիկուն may help you hth
23:05:10 <oerjan> that looks like a very confusing alphabet, for the same reasons as tengwar...
23:06:26 <boily> it is very confusing, and it's non-featural on top of it.
23:08:03 <oerjan> also, pari irigun gives far less hits than bari irikun
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23:08:39 <oerjan> which one is west and which is east pronunciation again...
23:09:24 <boily> pari irigun is West. GT is stuck on East. htah.
23:09:35 <myname> how come lambdabot knows my time?
23:09:43 <myname> is it just ctcp stuff?
23:09:52 <oerjan> myname: it sends a ctcp time request, i assume
23:09:59 -!- r0nk has joined.
23:10:17 <myname> that's actually useful
23:10:23 <r0nk> hi, is there any log for this channel that I can read?
23:11:06 <oerjan> r0nk: the topic lists two of them hth
23:11:14 <oerjan> (codu has the best formatting)
23:11:23 <boily> r0nk: you can also read the PDF. it has the Most Bestest Formatting.
23:11:26 <myname> that is one strange first question
23:11:46 <oerjan> pretty sure i've seen r0nk here before
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23:11:49 <boily> there is no strange first question.
23:12:04 <HackEgo> r0nk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:12:23 <r0nk> I wrote a debugger, logged onto this shell for the first time in a while, checked my freenode and someone told me that people were
23:12:30 <r0nk> talking about a tool I wrote
23:12:51 <myname> you are the brainfuck debugger guy
23:13:02 <r0nk> best title ever
23:14:29 <oerjan> boily: btw i mean google hits not gt (although gt also suggests that transcription)
23:14:31 <myname> you will feel comfortable here, i guess
23:16:44 <r0nk> I take pride in creating valuable tools for the mastery of brainfuck
23:17:38 <Taneb> What's a film that really pushes the format to the limit, doing things no other format could do
23:17:52 <Taneb> Like House of Leaves did for print and Homestuck did for webcomic-ish things
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23:22:26 <myname> r0nk: now go for befunge
23:23:02 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
23:23:20 <Tritonio> what graph? what debugger? new one?
23:24:21 <r0nk> yeah I made a debugger, here:
23:25:05 <r0nk> https://github.com/r0nk/ward
23:25:12 <myname> the gif shows pretty stuff
23:25:45 <r0nk> The state machine deal is randomly generated, so thats actually not really how i wanted it to look :O
23:27:31 <r0nk> oooooo befunge looks fun.
23:28:26 <oerjan> fungot: how fun is it?
23:28:26 <fungot> oerjan: it's pain to make it recursive when u can use a function
23:28:39 <oerjan> fungot: i suppose you're right about that.
23:28:39 <fungot> oerjan: my programming languages class? they can't be bothered
23:30:47 <r0nk> oh, so the direction of the movement of the instruction pointer is changeable? sweet.
23:31:04 <boily> myname: sentient style.
23:31:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:32:05 <oerjan> @tell TieSoul <TieSoul> btw, is there object-oriented esolanga? <-- glass and ork come to mind
23:32:28 <myname> ork is a sweet name for a language
23:35:13 <myname> i like that one, i may never write anything in it, though
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23:36:49 <myname> it looks something like what english~ should be
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23:40:25 <oerjan> @tell oren <oren> it is not used by ANY natural language <-- i could have sworn i've read all orders are used somewhere, although maybe it's not interpreted that way nowadays
23:41:45 <myname> r0nk: thinking about it, with you graph drawing abilities you may be better suited for oedermdrome (no serious recommendation, it's kind of an inside joke)
23:42:44 <boily> myname: eo, not oe hth
23:42:57 <oerjan> @tell oren https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warao_language
23:44:56 <myname> why is there no "beware of theoretical computer science" in the relcome?
23:45:05 <myname> i think there should be
23:45:24 <r0nk> I think the welcome should be in brainfuck
23:45:43 <oerjan> myname: there are irc line length limits hth
23:45:59 <oerjan> and the color codes are included in those
23:45:59 <r0nk> I wonder if I could write a version that would fit.
23:46:23 <r0nk> challenge accepted
23:47:06 <myname> r0nk: how'd you make that graph thing? is it ncurses?
23:47:35 <oerjan> r0nk: one of the purposes of the welcome is to hint to certain people that they're in the wrong channel; making it unreadable doesn't help with that
23:48:12 <oerjan> (the "other kind of" part)
23:48:30 <r0nk> yeah, ncurses with a custom line drawing function.
23:48:36 <myname> how often is this really necessary? afair there was one user that was wrong here
23:49:00 <oerjan> myname: people who think this is about the other kind of esoteric...
23:49:09 <myname> i wonder if you could at least draw eodermdrome states with that
23:49:36 <oerjan> although i think the venezuelans are more common, and they get a different message
23:49:41 <myname> oerjan: i would opt for "they will learn it the hard way"
23:49:42 <r0nk> the state machine is actually what I call a folded lattice, where Its read top to bottm,
23:50:07 <r0nk> in terms of control flow, so the main in a c would be on top,
23:50:18 <oerjan> myname: in theory it was also meant to point them to a better place, except that place is basically dead.
23:50:47 <myname> yeah, we had that on another channel some time ago
23:51:29 <myname> we sent all idiots^wmisleaded users to another channel with the result it being closed
23:52:23 <myname> we still send them there, but now they come back
23:52:45 <oerjan> i don't think it was closed because of us, it just never really took off
23:53:05 <pikhq> Presumably there's only momentary demand.
23:53:08 <oerjan> and may have been started by a person who came here first...
23:53:53 <myname> i can't imagine that many people with interest in esoterica that are capable of using an irc client
23:54:14 <oerjan> myname: that's racist!
23:54:31 <myname> are esoteric people a race?
23:55:33 <r0nk> i think i could draw eodermdrome states with it, they'd be modified though.
23:56:12 <oerjan> modified how? the state is just an unlabeled graph.
23:56:40 <oerjan> the labels are only used to describe substitutions.
23:56:59 <r0nk> well yeah, my program draws out the states of any turning machine thing,
23:57:20 <r0nk> (I'm still googling this thing, im halfway though the page so i might be wrong
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23:57:44 <oerjan> r0nk: that misspelling is so common we redefined it as something else
23:57:51 <myname> the interesting part is wether the structure of the graph is visible or not
23:58:58 <myname> damnit, i should go to bed
00:00:20 <r0nk> well as I understand its a graph of states, so it would kinda be, but it would be a lattice
00:00:36 <oerjan> myname: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turning_tarpit
00:00:39 <zzo38> (ACTIVATED (SACRIFICE THIS) (REPEAT 3 (DRAW-CARD YOU)))
00:01:06 <r0nk> my program draws a folded lattice state machine, not just a state machine.
00:02:09 <myname> oerjan: that is no turning machine!
00:02:12 <r0nk> so, it would be visible, but the y-axis is decided by what executes first, higher being first
00:02:25 <oerjan> myname: ok so the second part is not quite the same.
00:02:51 <oerjan> but it _is_ a pun on Turing tarpit, which also exists
00:03:02 <myname> but it's good to know that the term started as a pun
00:03:37 <myname> r0nk: they aren't exactly executed
00:03:40 <oerjan> it's sometimes caused confusing over at wikipedia's esolang article :P
00:03:54 <r0nk> what do you mean?
00:04:34 <myname> r0nk: the whole graph is one state
00:04:53 <myname> you don't want to draw the execution since it's not linear
00:05:21 <r0nk> for eodermdrome or turing machines?
00:08:20 <r0nk> yeah im going to have to read more on eoderdrome...
00:08:55 <myname> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Half-Broken_Car_in_Heavy_Traffic that may be my second favorite long name right behind wigner's fuckbuddy
00:09:32 <oerjan> myname: you're making Real Fast Nora jealous
00:09:49 <myname> don't know about it yet
00:10:07 <myname> is there any way to list languages ordered by length of their name?
00:10:11 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
00:10:57 <oerjan> i thought you'd been here long enough to have been exposed to Nora through osmosis :P
00:11:39 <myname> still not as funny as wigner's fuckbuddy imho
00:12:22 <oerjan> in that case, what about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
00:15:15 <myname> oerjan: now i really want that sorting option
00:15:34 <myname> or some category "ridiculous long names"
00:32:09 <FireFly> Wasn't Real Fast Nora named after spam?
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00:52:44 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering it is described two kind of "vanilla" being normal vanilla and French vanilla, but now I have made up a new kind of vanilla.
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01:11:00 <oerjan> in fact the page was originally created by a spambot. although it was deleted before Taneb recreated it as an esolang.
01:11:35 <lifthrasiir> Rule 0x29a: There is an esolang for given spam page creation.
01:16:51 <oerjan> i don't think 0x29a was spam, though.
01:17:36 <zzo38> I think you are right; 0x29A is just the hex code for 666
01:18:08 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: i've always assumed the 666 allusion was intentional
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01:21:59 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: let me guess, you're not christian or at least not very acquainted with the bible >:)
01:23:03 <lifthrasiir> I obviously know that connection, but personally don't care :p
01:26:21 <oerjan> i expect most people here in the channel to care little about religion, i meant culturally
01:27:22 <lifthrasiir> note to self: use `echo $RANDOM` to decide on the arbitrary small integer to be posted to the channel
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02:33:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41669&oldid=41668 * Oerjan * (+208) It's on Wayback and perfectly playable; also change some formatting
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05:10:19 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:10:19 <vanila> its about werd programming languages
05:14:56 <oerjan> are you sure you want a volcano that close, randall
05:15:54 * oerjan eyes r0nk suspiciously
05:17:19 * r0nk draws pretty graphs
05:17:32 <oerjan> do they have stick figures?
05:18:07 <r0nk> they have little dots-n-shit
05:20:46 * oerjan stealthily pours a few hundred colored plastic balls onto the floor near r0nk
05:21:35 * r0nk keeps drawing pretty graphs, unaware of the schemes against him.
05:22:32 <r0nk> what? I can't hear you over the mprintw
05:22:54 <r0nk> where did these balls come from?
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05:27:26 <oerjan> how should i know? i certainly did not put them there while you weren't looking. pay no attention to the backscroll. also don't mind the raptor footprints.
05:30:11 * oerjan may be too sleepy to continue the experiment.
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05:38:49 <zzo38> I don't see any footprints
05:40:09 <quintopia> zzo38: it was during these times raptor jesus put you on his shoulders and engaged HYPERTHRUSTERS to hover above the sand
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06:36:58 <zzo38> Does anyone like to supply data from their internet server using RVTP, or to write SQLite extension to allow connecting to RVTP server, or even any other server or client related stuff or anything else about it?
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06:46:58 <shachaf> zzo38: There's also "double scoop french vanilla", isn't there?
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06:49:01 <zzo38> For example to access financial data, weather reports, weather forecasts, texts and prices of Magic: the Gathering cards, country data (population and others), etc. Even data that can be writable is supported with RVTP too.
06:49:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but that isn't what I did either.
06:50:36 <zzo38> shachaf: I made even several noncreature cards that use only keyword abilities, and creatures having only keyword abilities even if they aren't normally for creatures (and even noncreatures that have keyword abilities that are normally only for creatures)
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08:22:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XRF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41670&oldid=41623 * Keymaker * (+917) Linked my quine and a faster, partial interpreter written in C.
08:23:19 <int-e> > error "Not implemented." -- The fastest interpreter in the West (up to constant factors).
08:23:36 <int-e> I meant *partial* interpreter
08:24:47 <vanila> what language does it interpret
08:29:02 <int-e> It's a fully extensibly design.
08:30:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: noncreature cards that use only keyword abilities - some such official cards are the basic lands, the snow basic lands, the limited double lands, and Ardent Plea
08:31:58 <zzo38> Yes, there are a few such official cards, but most of them don't do a lot and there doesn't seem to be a specific designation for these kind of cards.
08:32:01 <int-e> My guess is "remote virtual table protocol"
08:32:18 <zzo38> If you need the protocol specification I can send it to you.
08:32:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: isn't the designation "french vanilla non-creature"?
08:33:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: I have never seen such a thing in lists of what are the variants of "vanilla"; all it says is that "vanilla" and "French vanilla" and "virtual vanilla" are meant only for creatures
08:34:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm quite sure I've heared "vanilla" for non-creatures once, though they rarely talk about that because there are very few vanilla non-creatures and I think they're all basic lands
08:37:39 <int-e> zzo38: I'd be more interested in a rationale, and how it relates to Semantic Web things like SPARQL...
08:37:47 <b_jonas> there's of course a vanilla enchantment creature, a vanilla land creature, and at least four vanilla artifact creatures
08:38:31 <b_jonas> hmm, way more than four. including ones I've never heared of
08:38:51 <b_jonas> but at least six I should have already remembered.
08:39:35 <zzo38> Also some things about "French vanilla" say not only that it is a creature but that its keyword abilities are only those meant for creatures.
08:40:00 <zzo38> (Some keyword abilities only work on creatures; however there are some that are normally on creatures but can work on any card.)
08:40:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's the difference? do you mean creatures with cascade? creatures with modular?
08:40:37 <b_jonas> or does french vanilla count only evergreen keywords, or keywords that were evergreen at the point when that creature was pritned?
08:41:04 <zzo38> Some other texts said only evergreen. It is unclear exactly what it is supposed to mean.
08:41:18 <b_jonas> does Nath's Buffoon count as french vanilla?
08:41:33 <b_jonas> protection is an evergreen ability, but not only for creatures
08:42:11 <zzo38> int-e: Well, RVTP is meant to be specifically for SQL (especially SQLite, although it may be usable in other programs too), and not based on webpages or anything like that.
08:43:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know the answer to that question either. It also isn't a common kind of protection ability, but it is still protection.
08:44:20 <shachaf> protection from french vanilla
08:46:53 <zzo38> int-e: But regardless of the format, I would find it very useful to do queries of data accessed by internet from within SQLite (by using SQLite extension), rather than using webpages or telnet interfaces or whatever else is done.
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08:52:24 <zzo38> What else I want is a SQLite extension to do graphics. Why can I find neither such an extension nor a suitable software library to make such an extension out of?
08:52:57 <lifthrasiir> is SQLite a suitable platform for doing that?
08:53:52 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, why not?
08:57:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, what kind of graphics?
08:59:43 <zzo38> Graphics for plotting data on bar graphs and so on, but also could be use with other diagrams and possibly also arbitrary graphics
09:01:40 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose like that
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10:13:34 <zzo38> Why is it so difficult?
10:14:43 <vanila> an SQL table could have the color of each pixel
10:15:31 <zzo38> Yes, perhaps a virtual table, but I want to have functions for statistical graphics too, not only manually programmed graphics
10:16:26 <zzo38> It is easy to write SQLite extensions in C, although I cannot even find any suitable C library
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12:34:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tsadf * New user account
12:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41671&oldid=41625 * Tsadf * (+10) /* Q */
12:41:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: messages: not found
12:45:16 <oren> @messages-loud
12:46:16 <oren> ity was @... it would be useful if lambdabot had @ in his name
12:46:41 <int-e> IRC doesn't even allow that
12:47:00 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
12:47:50 <oren> none of those areallowed in irc names apparently
12:55:10 <mroman> Does Haskell have some in-memory buffer?
12:55:22 <mroman> where I can later read from?
12:56:38 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘BS.pack’ (imported from Data.ByteString)
13:07:28 <mroman> Could not find module ‘DynFlags’ It is a member of the hidden package ‘ghc-7.8.3’
13:07:32 <mroman> well... then unhide it?
13:08:38 <int-e> I would advice against unhiding the ghc package in general, but it's possible: ghc-pkg unhide ghc
13:09:49 <oren> my native language, why are you so hard to use correctly!?!?!
13:10:27 <int-e> because people are complicated?
13:11:22 <mroman> It does compile with ghc -package ghc
13:12:25 <lambdabot> Prelude print :: Show a => a -> IO ()
13:12:25 <lambdabot> System.IO print :: Show a => a -> IO ()
13:12:25 <lambdabot> Text.Printf printf :: PrintfType r => String -> r
13:15:38 <mroman> Can't the GHC API let me compile a String?
13:15:43 <mroman> rather than me giving it a file name?
13:17:46 <mroman> @hoogle String -> StringBuffer
13:17:46 <lambdabot> Warning: Unknown type StringBuffer
13:17:46 <lambdabot> Debug.Trace trace :: String -> a -> a
13:19:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41672 * Tsadf * (+1471) Created page with "'''QFL''' is a [[Turing tarpit]] inspired by [[Iota]] and [[Jot]]. Basically it's a [[Iota]] with IO. == Features == * functional purity * literate programming * full unico..."
13:20:14 <mroman> @hoogle [Char] -> StringBuffer
13:20:14 <lambdabot> Warning: Unknown type StringBuffer
13:20:14 <lambdabot> Debug.Trace trace :: String -> a -> a
13:21:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41673&oldid=41672 * Tsadf * (-1) /* Input */
13:22:20 <lambdabot> System.Time addToClockTime :: TimeDiff -> ClockTime -> ClockTime
13:22:20 <lambdabot> System.Time diffClockTimes :: ClockTime -> ClockTime -> TimeDiff
13:23:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41674&oldid=41673 * Tsadf * (+1) /* IO */
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13:29:24 <mroman> http://codepad.org/hV0ogcX
13:29:26 <mroman> doesn't seem to work :(
13:29:40 <mroman> (GHC version 7.8.3 for i386-unknown-linux):
13:29:40 <mroman> Could not find module ‘B.hs’
13:33:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41675&oldid=41674 * Tsadf * (+85) /* Realization */
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13:50:28 <Taneb> My skill level at nethack: TERRIBLE
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13:53:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41676&oldid=41675 * Tsadf * (+55) /* Realization */
13:56:41 <Taneb> jameseb, I died because of an endless stream of snakes on the first level
13:56:45 <Taneb> And now I must go to a lecture
13:57:39 <jameseb> Taneb: were you fountain quaffing when you shouldn't have been?
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14:03:47 <Jafet> Transcript of my most recent nethack game: o esc tab # q ret y q
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14:09:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41677&oldid=41516 * AndoDaan * (+268) Added some snippets of standard length.
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14:17:47 <HackEgo> vanila: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:25:45 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:26:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: belcome: not found
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15:04:44 <vanila> is there a thing I can paste a lot of txt into thne generate random markov sentences from it?
15:04:58 <vanila> in browser would be uesful..
15:05:12 <vanila> http://lab.yuyat.jp/markov-chain/
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15:18:49 <vanila> [ ( ] { ) < } < [ > ] >
15:18:50 <j-bot> vanila: (] {) <} < [ > ] >
15:19:18 <vanila> somehow program with interlinked brackets
15:19:28 <vanila> took idea from elsehwere
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15:28:58 <b_jonas> fungot, how many roads must a man?
15:28:58 <fungot> b_jonas: you can also do
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15:36:41 <fizzie> fungot: Are you being sassy?
15:36:42 <fungot> fizzie: all right :) i agree with augur would work
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15:37:33 <Lilax> I'm tired of all these msgs
15:37:35 <augur_> yeah thats right, agree with me, unf
15:37:41 <Lilax> About how I need to log in
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15:37:58 <Lilax> augur_ what are you on about
15:38:32 <b_jonas> fungot: I for one think divining from the entrains would be preferable in that case
15:38:32 <fungot> b_jonas: they can't do " fnord" page, but you can't
15:38:52 <Lilax> fungot: what is life?
15:38:53 <fungot> Lilax: maybe i'll go visit the chicken site says it supports quantum computation? quantum intercal or what?!" talk. i'd like a cut. either way, it would've gone unnoticed by me :)
15:39:02 <oerjan> b_jonas: is this a pun or a misspelling of "entrails"
15:39:16 <augur_> Lilax: what are YOU on about?
15:40:35 <oerjan> fools, have you awaken the augur_!
15:40:52 <Lilax> I'm confused oerjan
15:40:54 <fungot> FireFly: for whatever reason, a ( syntactic) environment, and that
15:40:56 <fungot> FireFly: or better yet, the procedures compiled with the cc-built installation results in a " worse but temporary" way to do js cps js enabled.)
15:41:27 <fungot> FireFly: hrmn. i just saw this. i can't log on to comp.lang.scheme or the undernet or something?
15:41:29 <Lilax> does fungot just pick random words
15:41:29 <fungot> Lilax: so you define e.g. first two papers at http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/hxt/ cw04/ fnord why that is.
15:41:41 <oerjan> Lilax: that's the natural state of people in this channel hth
15:42:14 <Lilax> Oh I'm solace btw I've just been getting that This isn't your account msg all the time
15:42:49 <b_jonas> fungot, why doyou hate me?
15:42:49 <fungot> b_jonas: ( 0)'. but it's output in iso-8859-1 anyway.)
15:43:33 <Lilax> thank you lambdabot
15:44:31 <oerjan> Lilax: fungot's babble is random, yes, although each word depends on the 2-3 or so that came before
15:44:32 <fungot> oerjan: say bash tar gz for 79? sorry for not laughing, eh.
15:44:58 <oerjan> and it has several styles
15:45:08 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
15:45:15 <oerjan> fungot: so are we all doomed?
15:45:15 <fungot> oerjan: but evil spies had doubtless reported much; for shortly a black galley put into port, and the world knows well the beauty, the stale and prosy triteness, and the
15:45:48 <b_jonas> I'd like a kitty pidgin bible style, do we have that yet?
15:47:33 <fizzie> I'm open to the submission of new styles, preferrably in the form of standard ARPA N-gram models.
15:47:45 <fizzie> There are instructions in the github.
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15:48:02 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt
15:48:02 <fungot> fizzie: subsequent winds had effaced all tracks which could have been nothing from outside, he had said, or at least from prying too big for any healthy new england wood. there were
15:48:15 <fizzie> fungot: There were what?
15:48:15 <fungot> fizzie: not the terrific force of the elements was such as has befallen no man before. it was now impossible to see the sculptor and give him the rebuke i thought proper for so boldly imposing upon a learned and cultivated englishman. but for a few days later mr. ward did the most sensible
15:48:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, can't you just generate one from http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul.txt (downloaded from an old version of http://lolcatbible.com/ )
15:50:44 <fizzie> In theory, if I have free time and remember and feel all that motivated. Besides, I don't have any of the stuff installed on the laptop, and the desktop is still back in Finland.
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18:09:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gs2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41678&oldid=39907 * Nooodl * (+315) no information is better than misinformation I GUESS
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19:21:55 <quintopia> is there a way to rewrite something like boolean f(x,y)=f(x-1,y) or f(x,y-1) to use tail call optimization?
19:31:32 <FreeFull> quintopia: Doesn't that function recurse forever?
19:32:25 <FreeFull> The problem with tail-optimising that is that there are two calls, rather than just one
19:32:50 <FreeFull> It'd have to be converted into some sort of linear form first
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19:59:50 <Lymia> quintopia, f(x, y) = or(f(x-1, y), f(x, y-1))
19:59:59 <Lymia> Because it isn't a tail call.
20:00:11 <Lymia> I'm not sure it could be done automatically.
20:00:22 <Lymia> You can probably rewrite it to something like
20:00:41 <Lymia> f'(x, y, b) = f(x-1, y, f(x, y-1) | b)
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20:05:16 <elliott> that's as much a tail-call as the original (with a short-circuiting or)
20:05:35 <elliott> it would take a lot more fanciness to do more than that (if it's even possible, I don't have brain power right now)
20:05:39 <elliott> um. I guess you need base cases too :P
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20:08:07 <J_Arcane> I think I've realized that I know only enough Haskell to make an idiot of myself.
20:09:14 <nys> i've looked at haskell from both sides now, from up and down and still somehow
20:09:25 <nys> it's haskell's illusions i recall.. i really don't know haskell at all
20:09:47 <J_Arcane> My memory of the basics has gotten too spotty; need to start learning it all over again I think.
20:10:23 <elliott> the only language anyone needs is *spins the wheel* MarioLANG
20:10:33 <elliott> *spins the wheel again* or FakeASM
20:10:48 <elliott> BogusForth and Imaginary function are also acceptable languages
20:11:03 <elliott> J_Arcane: some random esowiki language
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20:15:42 <J_Arcane> elliott: I think instead I'll start going through one of the Haskell books/course/tutorials/somethingorother tomorrow.
20:16:04 <elliott> what have you read already? (in the ways of haskell introductions)
20:18:39 <J_Arcane> About half of LYAH several months ago, this: https://www.fpcomplete.com/school/starting-with-haskell/haskell-fast-hard, and a lot of random practice problems.
20:19:10 <elliott> that non-LYAH tutorial was pretty bad the first time it came out
20:19:13 <elliott> I don't know if it's better now :p
20:19:47 <J_Arcane> It is fairly bad. It starts well, but it plummets by the last half.
20:20:28 <J_Arcane> I figured it'd be a quick way to get back up to at least where I was last time I used Haskell.
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20:22:47 <J_Arcane> I was thinking I'd try this one: https://www.fpcomplete.com/school/starting-with-haskell/basics-of-haskell or Real World Haskell.
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20:23:53 <J_Arcane> Or re-read LYAH and skim past the boring bits so I can actually finish it.
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20:26:22 <HackEgo> supay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:38:05 <J_Arcane> I like the looks of Real World Haskell because basically my biggest problem in Haskell then and now was that I had absolutely no idea how to use it for anything practical.
20:40:08 <J_Arcane> That's about all I've done with it, yes. Golfing and Codewars/Euler type stuff.
20:42:11 <MDude> I figure Haskell sounds like it's be good for making useful data structures, that you could then maybe use in other languages.
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20:43:45 <MDude> And generally being a thing that can lets you call stuff in it from other things.
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20:46:21 <J_Arcane> myname: I kinda wanna learn Rust actually, but it's sort of a moving target at the moment.
20:46:46 <myname> 1.0 beta should be there "real soon now"
20:49:36 <J_Arcane> Yeah, it's in alpha now apparently.
20:54:30 <elliott> MDude: haskell is actually pretty terrible for that purpose imo
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22:10:22 <J_Arcane> http://rextester.com/ZQWWT68409
22:12:38 <elliott> main=print$replicate 10 Dead -- golfed
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22:16:01 <int-e> elliott: [0..9]>>[Dead] is shorter
22:16:44 <int-e> also, replicate 10Dead is valid.
22:16:55 <glguy> If you're going to lay on the operators, at least go all the way: take n . map kill . repeat $ Alive
22:17:30 <elliott> main=putStr$'[':([0..8]>>"Dead,")++"Dead]" -- saved the data declaration
22:17:40 <int-e> well, at least deathFactory is inefficient.
22:18:39 <J_Arcane> what can i say, my head's in a weird place.
22:18:53 <J_Arcane> I wrote an object oriented version in Heresy too.
22:19:09 <J_Arcane> (map (fn (x) (send x 'kill)) people) ...
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22:23:26 <int-e> oh wait. deathFactory n = take n . map kill $ Alive : deathFactory n
22:23:38 <int-e> now it's inefficient, but thorough
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22:25:13 <int-e> -- ensures O(1) survivors even in presence of errors in "kill"
22:25:54 <int-e> (assuming they're random, independent, blah)
22:26:31 <int-e> and, of course, that the probability of kill resulting in death is >0.
22:26:50 <int-e> while dead people stay dead.
22:29:36 <myname> how does it ensure O(1) survivors?
22:30:32 <myname> let's assume kill will map the given Alive to Alive, thus the list will expand to Alive : Alive : deathFactory n
22:31:38 <myname> which could - since kill may leave Alive people Alive - lead to Alive : Alive : Alive : Alive : deathFactory n
22:31:53 <myname> and could lead to n people being alive
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23:17:09 <oerjan> <quintopia> is there a way to rewrite something like boolean f(x,y)=f(x-1,y) or f(x,y-1) to use tail call optimization? <-- i sense an X/Y problem
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23:18:42 <oerjan> assuming your base cases are nicely laid out, that's rather trivial to optimize, but i wouldn't call it "tail call optimization"
23:19:01 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
23:20:12 <oerjan> and of course it'll break down for something more complicated than or. (although all binary boolean operators are easy - i once went through them when thinking about 1d CAs)
23:21:05 <oerjan> basically what you have there _is_ a CA, just with time steps diagonal
23:21:46 <oerjan> and so it can be easily calculated in O(n) space and O(mn) time
23:22:35 <oerjan> but the name for it still isn't "tail call optimization"
23:24:43 <oerjan> (the binary boolean case can be done more efficiently. actually i think xor involved binomials (mod 2), which was the most complicated case.)
23:34:10 <oerjan> @tell J_Arcane <J_Arcane> elliott: I think instead I'll start going through one of the Haskell books/course/tutorials/somethingorother tomorrow. <-- there was a blog post recently where someone gave their opinions on some courses tutorials (spoiler: he considered LYAH and several other common recommendations pedagogically bad and recommended a different path) http://bitemyapp.com/posts/2014-12-31-functional-education.html
23:34:22 * oerjan wonders if lambdabot will pass on all that
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23:35:10 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I liked LYAH at first, but then it falls down in the middle by just filling up the book with short three line paragraphs explaining every single bloody item in the standard library.
23:35:51 * oerjan never read it himself, anyway
23:36:00 <oerjan> i learned haskell too long ago
23:37:02 <elliott> oerjan: fair enough, re: that post
23:37:13 <elliott> that cis194 course is taught by byorgey so I'm surei t's good
23:37:16 <J_Arcane> There are whole chapters of the book that are little more than just, say, starting with Data.List, and going through each of the major functions one at a time. A nice primer for an amateur when it comes to the really important ones like map and filter, but don't waste my time explaining every single thing in the docs, especially if you're not gonna take time to show me what actual use they are.
23:38:07 <elliott> why is Typeclassopedia in this list... oh lord, are people recommending the Typeclassopedia as an introduction to Haskell these days?!
23:39:06 <oerjan> i assume it's more of an overview recommendation...
23:41:33 <oerjan> in the mean time, the slow development of real quantum computers keeps chugging along http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2155
23:42:10 <elliott> "Dated. A lot of code no longer works. Author is too busy to fix it. If I got pestered by the Haskell community as much as the author has, I wouldn’t want to fix my book either." hmm, did I miss something with bos?
23:42:50 <oerjan> (they're actually starting to test out error correction now)
23:43:33 <oerjan> (not the full kind, but enough to get an 8.5 times improvement in coherence time)
23:44:41 <J_Arcane> "The material often bores learners and leaves them feeling like they’re not “getting” it. This because they’re being “talked at” and demo’d to. They’re not engaging with and solving problems."
23:44:54 <J_Arcane> That does rather sum up my LYAH experience past the initial stages.
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23:46:15 <J_Arcane> There's actually an adaptation of cis194 on FPComplete.
23:47:04 <oerjan> i recall the blog post insisted on a particular semester version of the course (not the latest)
23:48:03 <J_Arcane> Yorgey's version, same as the one on FPComplete.
23:48:25 <J_Arcane> 2015 isn't done yet, and '14 was a different instructor.
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00:02:00 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I think I find his argument rather convincing, and so will most likely do the FPComplete version of 194, and then the NICTA course. Interactive methods seem to work better for me anyway, I retain better.
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00:19:02 <oerjan> elliott: i shaved off one character hth main=putStr$'[':49`take`cycle"Dead,"++"]"
00:19:21 <elliott> who's going to submit it to anagol
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00:23:44 <lambdabot> [Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead]
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00:39:08 <HackEgo> olist 972: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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01:19:32 <Lilax> gonna play cards against humanity
01:21:17 <oerjan> *sigh* the drive comic's archive sucks so bad
01:22:15 <oerjan> there is no list of all comics that goes more than a year back, comic urls are by date and update have been sporadic for a long time...
01:22:55 * oerjan was trying to find the galaxy map to look up a planet mentioned in the latest comic
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01:36:34 <paul2520> actually, I'mma have to pass right now
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01:50:13 <tswett2> oerjan: I'm not understanding your set builder notation.
01:50:54 <tswett2> You said let A = { y | y in O forall O in C, x /= y }. It seems like there should be a conjunction between the first "O" and the "forall", and I don't know what C and x are.
01:52:16 <tswett2> Now, my *real* question is:
01:53:00 <tswett2> Given a set, is a topology on that set completely determined by the set of all functions from Co to that set, where Co is the set containing 0 and all rational numbers of the form 1/n where n is an integer?
01:53:02 <oerjan> A is the set of y /= x that are contained in all O in C hth
01:53:18 <tswett2> And what's C? The space is called S.
01:53:36 <oerjan> C is your hypothetical countable family of open sets
01:53:44 <oerjan> which therefore cannot exist
01:54:32 <tswett2> I should have written down my question way back when.
01:55:07 <tswett2> Eh, who cares about topological spaces without countable bases anyway.
01:55:59 <tswett2> I suddenly have the eerie feeling that the category of topological spaces with countable bases is cartesian closed.
01:56:16 <oerjan> your Co simply allows you to detect converging sequences afaict, so since those don't determine the topology in general the answer is no.
01:56:41 <tswett2> Is it a well-known fact that converging sequences don't determine the topology in general?
01:56:44 <oerjan> otherwise there would have been no need to invent nets.
01:56:57 <tswett2> This is starting to sound familiar.
01:57:02 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it is.
01:57:19 <tswett2> Damn it, I need to go to grad school.
01:57:52 <oerjan> wouldn't my example from before show that? there are no not-eventually-constant converging sequences in that space, i think.
01:59:30 <oerjan> so it cannot be distinguished by sequences from the discrete space on the same set
02:01:13 <oerjan> (basically every countable set is closed, so no sequence can converge to anything outside its limit range)
02:01:27 <tswett2> I'll take your word for it.
02:01:48 <tswett2> My reason for bringing everything up comes from my distrust of excessively large mathematical objects.
02:01:57 <oerjan> well the topology is basically _defined_ by every countable set being closed.
02:02:55 <tswett2> I'm not experienced enough in topology for all this to make sense without a bunch of effort.
02:03:28 <tswett2> I think I've figured out which mathematical objects I find "acceptable". Maybe.
02:03:45 <tswett2> It's those with topologies with countable bases.
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02:04:03 <oerjan> tswett2: you might want to get hold of the book named "Counterexamples in topology"
02:08:22 <tswett2> The philosophically nice thing about points in spaces with countable bases is that, given two different (and distinguishable) points, you'll always be able to tell which is which by systematically performing an infinite number of experiments.
02:08:58 <oerjan> oh you mean countable overall, not just at each point
02:09:04 <tswett2> I think we're sort of talking past each other at this point.
02:10:16 <oerjan> there are some mathematical arguments that get a lot easier if you can just go total overkill with uncountable sets and axiom of choice though...
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02:16:56 <oerjan> ok maybe humanity is not doomed just yet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teixobactin
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02:25:27 <tswett2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-countable_space - oh, there's a word for it.
02:27:20 <tswett2> Moreover, I'm pretty sure I knew the word already; I just forgot.
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02:33:56 <tswett2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_space - oh sweet.
02:36:01 <tswett2> "The subcategory Seq is a cartesian closed category with respect to its own product (not that of Top)." Nice.
02:36:07 <tswett2> Raises an obvious question, of course.
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03:11:37 <Lilax> On the Next episode Of Dragon Ball Z Goku fights a feirce battle With puppets made from the skin of children!
03:11:48 <Lilax> I'm sorry I had too idk why
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03:15:27 <Lilax> how was your persons days
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05:09:48 <vanila> nwe stuff on esoteric.codes
05:10:12 <vanila> قلب (‘alb) prقلب (‘alb) pr
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05:35:26 <vanila> Esolangs made it clear to me that languages could be a medium themselves, but what makes قلب unique is that it uses this medium to communicate a specific cultural and political message about code itself.
05:42:35 <int-e> oerjan: good morning, good night? (extrapolating from yesterday where I just missed you.)
05:44:47 <int-e> ah, right, I meant the morning for myself and the night for you, but of course that didn't get across.
05:45:15 <oerjan> (of course my surroundings may consider it morning)
05:45:31 <int-e> ah who cares about those
05:45:42 <int-e> it's still dark here
05:49:38 <oerjan> well here too, i mean morning as in some people appear to be leaving for work...
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05:55:34 <int-e> hmm, not a single Burlesque solution for Kimariji...
05:56:29 <vanila> I saw this cool assembly languaeg self interpreter (virtualization)
05:56:34 <vanila> but i cant think of anything to do with it
05:56:35 <zzo38> I have made up a few new keyword abilities for Magic: the Gathering, which are called: Concentration, Covering, Fibonacci, Float, Lock, Overlay, Planestrample, Switchable.
05:57:00 <int-e> vanila: "virtualization" meaning machine code? if so, which processor?
05:57:08 <vanila> its a made up machine code
05:58:06 <vanila> http://i.imgur.com/uY0TfXF.png
05:58:57 <vanila> it lets you run machine code without it knowing its been run
05:59:14 <int-e> L.eval is missing?
05:59:26 <vanila> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/papers/pepm08.pdf
05:59:37 <vanila> its just a dispatch loop
06:04:06 <int-e> Oh it's almost a VLIW architecture in spirit (you make the encoding ridiculously big, using a whole word for the opcode, in order to simplify decoding.)
06:04:27 <int-e> It's not really VLIW because instructions still have variable length.
06:04:51 <vanila> VLIW is a new term to me, im just looking it up
06:05:03 <int-e> they're fixed length, 4 words each.
06:05:15 <int-e> it's a silly term, "very large instruction word"
06:07:11 <int-e> and it's hardly been used outside of microcode designs; the EPIC (Itanium) architecture looks VLIW-ish, and the Transmeta CPUs had a VLIW design. Maybe some DSPs do, too, and possibly GPUs, but no widespread mainstream processors that I'm aware of.
06:24:23 <int-e> "Java, a dead-end language with zero interesting syntax or semantics."
06:24:40 <vanila> I want to try to do something with this but i cant think of any ideas
06:25:16 <vanila> java has some interesting ideas: Compiling to a bytecode vm, object oriented programming with classes and interfaces
06:25:26 <vanila> probably more i dont know
06:26:07 <int-e> bytecode is boring, OO is boring
06:26:52 <int-e> Btw do you know why Java is pretty much stuck with the bytecode as is?
06:27:36 <vanila> its an important technique in compilers
06:27:42 <int-e> "An enhancer is a tool that automatically adds code to your persistent classes after you have written them. The enhancer post-processes the bytecode generated by your Java compiler, adding the necessary fields and methods to implement the required persistence features. This bytecode modification perfectly preserves the line numbers in stack traces and is compatible with Java debuggers."
06:28:09 <int-e> People started doing crazy shit like that.
06:29:25 <int-e> Java will just never be cool. It's old, it's big, and it's Buzzword Compatbible. (Buzzwords are yesterday's cool ideas.)
06:30:41 <vanila> cool is stuff like node.js, dart, golang
06:30:47 <vanila> i dont care about cool languages
06:31:03 <int-e> then what are you doing here? ;-)
06:32:29 <Sgeo> Is Rust cool >.>
06:32:40 <int-e> oh, node, which will win? Node.js or io.js?
06:33:29 <adu> vanila: I also like GoLang, but I don't see the point of node or dart
06:33:29 <int-e> (forks are interesting social experiments)
06:34:55 <int-e> I though that ECMAScript isn't too bad a language. (Not cool, but as far as I can see, most of the warts associated with Javascript are actually different interpretation of the W3C DOM, in particular when it comes to event propagation.)
06:35:59 <elliott> well it also has messed up scoping and coercion rules
06:36:00 <int-e> Otoh I think Node.js was just a cheap way of getting a fast scripting language: take an existing Browser VM and strip the browser parts.
06:36:20 <vanila> js scoping is esoteric
06:37:05 <adu> int-e: yeah, at least js has proper closures
06:37:18 <int-e> it's a prototype based language which is slightly uncommon.
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06:37:30 <elliott> it's a prototype-based language that pretends to be class-based :)
06:37:50 <int-e> elliott: yeah that pretention is a mistake.
06:38:12 <adu> vanila: I think JS is lexically scoped, which is pretty normal, not esoteric
06:38:22 <int-e> (well, half a mistake. if you didn't use it in a mostly class-based fashion, optimisation would be reallly hard.)
06:38:52 <adu> myname: why not?
06:39:08 <myname> i don't see its use case
06:39:16 <vanila> go had so much potential
06:39:27 <vanila> its a shame what they came out with
06:39:30 <int-e> adu: the surrounding object's properties are in scope, and those can change dynamically.
06:39:38 <vanila> for me a potential use case was to write C programs in (instaed of C)
06:39:41 <myname> also it has too much strange properties for a modeen language
06:39:42 <Sgeo> Don't they have a workaround for the lack of generics or something?
06:39:53 <Sgeo> Or... not really sure
06:39:54 <vanila> really embarassing workarounds
06:40:02 <adu> myname: go's usecase is mostly in the highly-threaded inner-loop sector
06:40:04 <int-e> (A bit like Python? Nobody seems to complain there...)
06:40:04 <vanila> and the go community were extremely hostile when I proposed other solutions
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06:40:43 <int-e> (But of course, Python is more properly class based.)
06:40:51 <adu> Sgeo: Just think of Go as an untyped language, where everything is of type interface{} and it makes so much more sense
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06:41:19 <adu> myname: I know nothing about erlang
06:41:40 <vanila> dont you have to do a type-unsafe cast to use your interface{}s?
06:41:44 <myname> adu: it also makes stuff much more horrible
06:42:12 <myname> "go is not a bad language, but it's not a good language either"
06:42:34 <myname> why the hell does it still have null pointers
06:42:36 <int-e> there are no good programming languages.
06:42:58 <shachaf> int-e: are you saying that go is a no good programming language?
06:43:05 <adu> vanila: you do, but as Sgeo said, Go doesn't have generics, or conditional compilation, or macros, all of which their users are begging for
06:43:06 <myname> int-e: well, yeah, but rust gets as close to what i want as anything i know
06:43:21 <vanila> yeah, I think its a disappointment
06:43:28 <int-e> ("There are two kinds of programming languages. Those that everybody complains about and those that nobody uses." -- I believe that's going to remain true for the foreseeable future.)
06:43:36 <vanila> int-e, I thnk R7RS scheme is a good language
06:44:18 <int-e> meh, I'm *using* ocaml, it sucks :P
06:44:30 <vanila> what problems do take with it?
06:44:36 <vanila> i havent used it very much, im a beginner
06:44:41 <adu> vanila: and so from my perspective, it seems like those Go users who want generics are switching to Rust, because it's also aiming for the highly-threaded inner-loop market
06:45:05 <vanila> i have an issue with rust but nobody else seems to care :/
06:45:16 <adu> vanila: what issue?
06:45:30 <vanila> they should make a formal model of the type system and prove basic safety properties about it
06:45:49 <myname> go for a pull request :D
06:46:10 <vanila> this isn't something you can just hack up in a weekend
06:46:28 <adu> vanila: omg, I <3 R7RS-small
06:46:44 <vanila> do you use saggitarius scheme?
06:46:58 <adu> nope, I wrote my own scheme
06:47:09 <int-e> starting with small syntacticaly oddities (postfix type constructors? WHY?!), to the fact that modules have to be initialised at runtime (which in the particular project I'm involved in means the program spends half a second just starting up... because it slavishly follows the interface/instance division in its design (not my decision, but hard to change now...)), tools that are not powerful enough to...
06:47:09 <vanila> i want to do that too but its hard..
06:47:15 <int-e> ...see through the flexible module systems in order to extract usable dependencies...
06:47:19 <int-e> That's just off the top of my head.
06:47:39 <Sgeo> int-e: I suspect you'd like Rust's no-life-before-main policy
06:47:42 <vanila> ohh wow int-e, thanks for good points! I had no idea about those
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06:49:33 <adu> vanila: have you seen any videos or slides about Rust's ownership model?
06:49:46 <int-e> Hmmm. Good night f j n u e i h p.
06:50:08 <int-e> --- oerjan has quit [Quit: Gnfjnueihp] <-- trying to decipher this
06:50:53 <adu> vanila: http://www.slideshare.net/saneyuki/rusts-ownership-and-move-semantics
06:58:09 <myname> int-e: we could make an acronym game, everbody has to resolve one more letter
06:58:22 <myname> e.g. Good night for j n u e i h p
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07:02:40 <adu> good night fellow jolly nude entertainer in hot pants
07:04:09 <adu> nude -> nearly undressed?
07:08:27 <adu> good nougat flavoured 'n' umeboshi in hot pockets
07:08:37 <myname> we should ask oerjan who these jolly nearly undressed entertainers are
07:10:49 <elliott> good nate: footjob nate. understating egregious incidents, he's perfect.
07:12:24 <int-e> "for just now" is possible
07:12:40 <adu> Good near-fail job. Now U, er, I have passed.
07:12:57 <int-e> @tell oerjan please expand Gnfjnueihp for us.
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07:43:31 <Sgeo> adu: I'm having trouble reading those slides, due to the poor grasp of English
07:44:07 <adu> I'm sure there are other Rust presentations somewhere online
07:59:43 <int-e> "the safeness in parallel" is kind of cute.
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08:19:49 <b_jonas> `8-ball is the program cpu-bound?
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08:37:14 <vanila> is anyone familiar with futamura projections for making compilers?
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09:04:17 <zzo38> What kind of "tasks" are there in Magic: the Gathering? (By "tasks" I mean like Babson task and so on in chess)
09:05:19 <shachaf> Do you mean for puzzles like Magic: The Puzzling?
09:10:55 <Jafet> Puzzles to make puzzles, how frightening
09:15:19 <zzo38> In chess, a "Babson task" is when white plays, black promotes a pawn, and the solution requires white to promote into the same kind of piece that black promoted into. Another task is Valladao task, where promotion, en passant, and castling are all required.
09:23:00 <Sgeo> zzo38: what do you think about rock paper scissors chess? http://leftoversoup.com/archive.php?num=34
09:25:19 <zzo38> It looks like it may be interesting kind of game though.
09:27:50 <int-e> Cute, Wikipedia has a disambiguation page for symbols-that-resemble-the-empty-set. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98_%28disambiguation%29
09:32:43 <shachaf> remember how in the lost vikings the zeros had slashes through them
09:34:59 <Jafet> None of the articles for those symbols seem to link to that page, though.
09:42:51 <mroman> http://codepad.org/4HHab77x
09:43:44 <mroman> (I'm working on a new "esolang" that compiles to haskell)
09:43:52 <mroman> (with the intent to write a self-hosting compiler later on)
09:44:27 <mroman> 5+5. == +5 5. == 5 5+.
09:44:42 <mroman> operations are not carried out immediately but only after a "."
09:44:59 <mroman> "." carries out the most recent operation where as ";" carries out all operations in order
09:46:39 <mroman> whereas 5-3*2; is actually (3-2)*5
09:50:53 <mroman> http://codepad.org/uKvt80z5
09:51:53 <mroman> 5-3*2; is the same thing as 5 3 2 -. *.
09:54:04 <mroman> b_jonas: The compiler keeps a stack of operations to perform
09:54:17 <mroman> "." pops an operation from the stack
09:54:29 <mroman> ";" treats the stack as a list and executes all operations in order
09:54:46 <mroman> + - * /; is +. -. *. /.
09:54:59 <mroman> whereas +-*/.... is /. *. -. +.
09:55:03 <vanila> that souns horribly painful
09:55:16 <mroman> +-*/ itself compiles to nothing
09:55:20 <mroman> since no operation is executed
09:57:48 <mroman> vanila: well you're not supposed to mix ; and . anyway
09:57:55 <mroman> it's for different programming styles
09:58:32 <mroman> you should use ";" if you prefer to push all data first, then carry out all operations
09:59:19 <mroman> and "." if you want a more not-so-stacky style of programming
10:02:12 <Jafet> Why does ; take the data from a stack but the operators from a queue?
10:04:49 <mroman> which takes all operators from the stack
10:06:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41679&oldid=40647 * MrDetonia * (+117) Added link to PZAB interpreter in C GitHub page.
10:06:42 <mroman> Jafet, b_jonas: http://codepad.org/vhvjt6gK
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10:10:04 <mroman> 5-3.*2. is also the same thing as - 5 3.*2. or 5 3 -. 2 *.
10:10:26 <mroman> I prefer the 5-3. *2. style
10:11:05 <mroman> 5-3.*2 is also the same as 5 3 2 *-;
10:11:27 <shachaf> zzo38: There are some Prismata puzzles if you're interested.
10:12:20 <shachaf> There's one called Countdown in the non-account demo.
10:12:26 <Jafet> Do they involve real time?
10:12:34 <mroman> essentially my "esolang" offers three programming styles.
10:13:37 <Jafet> Not that I'm aware of
10:15:07 <shachaf> It's not a real-time game.
10:15:32 <Jafet> Ok, I assumed it was.
10:17:21 <shachaf> It's a deterministic complete-information turn-based game. The puzzles are vaguely in the same category as chess puzzles or Magic: The Puzzlings, I guess.
10:24:03 <Jafet> mroman: given a program in a canonical "sane" syntax, how many ways can it can be permuted using the operators .;\
10:25:39 <Jafet> ; pops the entire operator queue, unfortunately, so its application to this seems limited
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10:33:18 <Jafet> Apparently g++ supports enough of C++11 threading now
10:35:06 <mroman> Jafet: every trailing . can be replaced by either \ and ;
10:35:20 <mroman> every sequence of trailing dots can be replaced by \
10:35:58 <Jafet> That's what it's defined as, probably
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10:39:19 <mroman> you could also write stuff like * - 3 2. 5.
10:39:50 <mroman> so I guess there are a lot of permutations possible
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10:43:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41680&oldid=13517 * 79.108.181.93 * (+56)
10:48:28 <J_Arcane> this should not be a surprise to anyone here but it's an entertaining read: http://www.howtogeek.com/198622/heres-what-happens-when-you-install-the-top-10-download.com-apps/?PageSpeed=noscript
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11:03:39 <int-e> J_Arcane: thanks, I didn't know things had gotten so bad (I'm only using Windows for playing games...)
11:04:26 <J_Arcane> int-e: I sometimes think that part of the reason for the boom in web apps has a lot to do with the Windows native app environment having become so unrecoverably shite.
11:09:02 <zzo38> I usually don't install any program that requires an installer
11:09:06 <int-e> . o O ( Anybody remember the days when we had "programs"? )
11:10:32 <J_Arcane> Where there rarely ever *were* installers, and when they were, there was no where for them to hide files in the first place.
11:11:04 <J_Arcane> If I could still get work done in 2015 on MacOS 8.5, I'd have a PowerMac on my desk.
11:12:04 <zzo38> I like to write just command-line filter programs mostly; just port source-codes and compile it, or run the provided binary if it is working on your computer, and it work. It can be used with Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, etc whatever. If you want to use it remotely you can just use SSH
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11:13:00 <Jafet> I always thought that those ratings on download sites were dubious
11:14:38 <int-e> the ratings are dubious, but the top 10 list is ridiculous.
11:15:53 <int-e> (but I'm afraid the article isn't totally ridiculous. people will browse those lists and think to themselves, "oh that sounds useful"... )
11:16:29 <J_Arcane> top lists on most app providers are pretty easily gamed.
11:16:48 <J_Arcane> I'm pretty sure half the top apps on Windows Store even are complete nonsense.
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11:19:33 <J_Arcane> Actually, at this point I'm not sure MS is even bothering with any curation of their app store. It's *starting* to dwindle down now, but for most of the last several months as many of half the top games on Windows Store were pirated ROMs wrapped in a half-working emulator.
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11:38:22 <J_Arcane> God, finding good screensavers ...
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11:40:22 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: what ratings? these ratings? http://www.xkcd.com/937/
11:41:04 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: I mean that most of them don't seem to be rate-limited in any way, so they're pretty trivially botnetted, and seldom even checked for such.
11:41:37 <J_Arcane> I think Apple's app store is the only one I haven't seen apps that were clearly just flooded with spam "reviews" that existed to bump the average.
12:18:34 <mroman> > let f+ x x = x+x in f+ 3
12:18:36 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: x
12:18:47 <mroman> > let f x x = x+x in f 3
12:19:03 <mroman> > let f+ x y = x+y in f 2 3
12:19:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: x
12:20:32 <boily> > let (+) = (*) in 2 + 3
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12:40:10 <Taneb> Ugh, my computer keeps changing from UK keyboard layout to US
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13:52:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41681&oldid=41677 * AndoDaan * (+2123) Wang B-machine to MNNBFSL outline
14:20:18 <J_Arcane> Well, that's refreshing already. A tutorial that actually admits Haskell has downsides. ;)
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15:08:03 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 55m 6s ago: please expand Gnfjnueihp for us.
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15:08:29 <oerjan> sheesh you mash the keyboard _once_ and everyone collapses in confusion.
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15:10:58 <oerjan> @tell int-e sheesh you mash the keyboard _once_ and everyone collapses in confusion. i mean, adu is correct.
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15:11:50 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: I have some problems with your description of that M:tG implementation of that cyclic tag machine, though probably fixable, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow#M:tG_implementation
15:12:02 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: I also fixed a few typos in the description that seemed to have an obvious fix
15:15:02 <int-e> oerjan: well the 'gn' was really unlucky if that's what you did
15:15:28 <oerjan> i may have typed that before mashing the rest.
15:17:35 <oerjan> `8-ball is the program cpu-bound?
15:17:43 <int-e> oerjan: well then you have no reason to complain.
15:17:53 <oerjan> so HackEgo's version is not deterministic.
15:18:01 <oerjan> ^8-ball is the program cpu-bound?
15:18:06 <oerjan> ^8ball is the program cpu-bound?
15:18:39 <oerjan> int-e: well not _that_ reason.
15:18:56 <int-e> oerjan: that's what the phrase means
15:22:46 <J_Arcane> Neeeeat. There's copies of Mac Common Lisp on Macintosh Garden.
15:24:40 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: oh no. that sounds dangerous.
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15:50:34 <Jafet> Heh, ran out of memory trying to mmap a file.
15:54:39 <oerjan> if there only were somewhere it could store it on disk to save on memory
15:55:14 <oerjan> (by which i mean, i'm surprised it doesn't do that automatically?)
15:55:26 <Jafet> No, I think it ran out of memory creating page tables
15:56:06 <oerjan> oh right your humongous OEIS search?
15:57:48 <oerjan> just swap out the page tables hth
15:59:10 <oerjan> theoretically that could be made to work...
16:00:41 <oerjan> (in some system. no idea if any real ones support it.)
16:00:50 <Jafet> You can of course emulate it in software
16:01:08 <Jafet> (which is not a speed problem, because, after all, they were swapped out to disk)
16:01:08 <oerjan> and of course you'd need to protect some pages from being swapped.
16:02:43 <Jafet> I think x86 TLBs don't like it when you update page tables though
16:04:29 <oerjan> relevant pictures https://www.google.no/search?q=TLB&biw=1179&bih=615&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=30G1VICdKYG2UPKOgZAF&ved=0CCUQsAQ
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16:23:37 <vanila> where could I get a bunch of good pure lambda calculus terms?
16:23:44 <vanila> big ones to benchmark evaluators etc
16:24:19 <Jafet> I only have trashy grungy lambda calculus terms
16:25:14 <Jafet> Just scott encode some things
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17:34:16 <J_Arcane> > let x ☭ xs = map (+lavg) xs where lavg = x `div` (length xs) in 10 ☭ [1..10] -- Distributive list operator for Haskell ;)
17:36:41 <Jafet> This regime looks a bit too strict for me.
17:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> shouldn't a communist operator redistribute within the list
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18:26:28 <ais523> oh, on the subject of vaporware esolangs by ais523
18:26:35 <ais523> I started working on Underlambda again
18:27:09 <ais523> also I read the Ursala manual (Ursala is not a vaporware esolang by ais523, but an allegedly serious language by someone else) and actually think I understood what was going on this time
18:28:34 <vanila> woah I didn't know there was actually a manual
18:28:50 <ais523> how would anyone be able to write it without a manual?
18:29:59 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
18:30:18 <ais523> AFAICT, Ursala is what you get when you start from similar syntax goals as Cyclexa (which looks like line noise just as much as Ursala does), and then add a few dubious computer science opinions
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18:32:01 <ais523> (specifically: "static typing is evil, it makes much more sense to write a language which just assumes all bit patterns it sees are already of the type you claim they are", "currying-based languages are incapable of expressing /flip/", and "the main activity worth optimizing is extracting parts of structured data and forming new structured data out of them")
18:32:46 <olsner> ursala's data extraction thingies (forgot what they're called) reminded me of lenses
18:32:58 <ais523> they're called pointers/pseudopointers
18:33:13 <ais523> but really, the fundamental interesting concept here is what Ursala calls an address
18:33:46 <ais523> only it doesn't realise why it's important in the language itself which leaves the language a bit muddled (it's obvious (?) if you look at the generated VM bytecode though)
18:35:00 <ais523> the Ursala manual uses &alrNQPabh2fabt2RCNq as an example of code that Ursala is particularly good at; I reimplemented it in Underlambda (untested) and got '1~(((!('x'y)\xa'z_*)n1`)\y\z)e((A!)_)*I
18:35:10 <ais523> which is exactly twice as long, I couldn't golf it down further
18:35:31 <ais523> untested because I only realised that e was an important operation quite easily and none of my interps interprets it yet
18:37:21 <olsner> what's that "address" thing in ursala then?
18:37:40 <ais523> anyway, one thing that leaves me a bit relieved about Ursala is that the syntax is not intended to be readable or memorable
18:37:56 <ais523> the manual freely admits that you'll probably need to keep it open in order to pick appropriate operators and the like
18:38:17 <ais523> (most operators in Ursala do multiple different things depending on surrounding whitespace; also the precedence rules are non-transitive)
18:38:39 <ais523> and an "address" is basically a sequence of navigation commands through pairs
18:38:46 <ais523> "take the left of the right of the right of the left", like that
18:39:20 <ais523> and although Ursala talks about lists and pairs and jobs and sets, they're all implemented as pairs internally
18:39:44 <ais523> e.g. a list is a pair of its head and tail, Lisp-style
18:40:22 <olsner> ah, the [lrth]* string is the "address" and things like &address makes a "pointer" of it?
18:41:02 <ais523> olsner: OK, so this is where things start getting a little confusing
18:41:11 <olsner> those addresses are what made me think about lenses, I think
18:41:18 <ais523> a pointer is basically just a structure of addresses, specified in reverse-polish form
18:41:33 <ais523> so, e.g. &lrX is the pair (&l, &r) because X is a pair constructor
18:42:10 <ais523> this accounts for a relatively small subset of the long ~& nonsense you frequently see
18:42:49 <ais523> then, because the author of Ursala liked this syntax so much, they added in a bunch of other functions that aren't actually pointers, but using the same syntax (i.e. reverse-polish operating on pointers or pseudopointers), called a pseudopointer
18:43:07 <ais523> so at this point you have a reverse-polish DSL which uses every uppercase and lowercase letter of the alphabet
18:43:44 <ais523> and many of the commands are implemented identically (e.g. l and h), but are conceptually different and so have different names
18:46:26 <olsner> hmm, but something like &lr is (iirc) "left of the right" (or the other way around) - how would you extend &lrX to make a pair of e.g. (&lr, &rl) instead?
18:51:25 <olsner> interesting twist that you start with inscrutable code, then to figure out what it does you compile it and dump the VM's internal representation which is human readable
18:54:35 <olsner> (well, or decompile it into human readable form, not sure how much of a straight dump it is)
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19:36:17 <J_Arcane> https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2015/01/hiring-software-engineer?preview=true
20:11:25 <zzo38> Do you like some of my new kind of keyword abilities for Magic: the Gathering?
20:11:50 <shachaf> Which new kind of keybard abilities?
20:12:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, there are new keyword abilities? apart from plainstrample?
20:12:53 <zzo38> You can see it in the file http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt (search for "Keyword abilities:")
20:13:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I added some more now.
20:13:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, is there a Changes file?
20:13:38 <zzo38> No, there is no changes file, I just add to the file I already have (and make other changes as necessary, sometimes)
20:13:59 <b_jonas> maybe I should save it then so I can diff
20:14:14 <zzo38> You can do that if you want to
20:17:23 <b_jonas> also, people, if you understand how these crazy automaton that are turing complete but require exponential time work, try answering http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/21525/8067 Conjecture about two counters automata
20:24:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: for the Confusion keyword, how does the triggered ability work if more than one creature blocks or is blocked by a creature?
20:26:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, as written, it seems that the triggered ability puts counters too late, so those counters will be useful only next combat (unless there's double strike involved)
20:27:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for the covering keyword, I don't understand how that works
20:27:28 <zzo38> Yes it is supposed to put them only until the next combat or strike
20:27:56 <zzo38> Also I think the "switchable" keyword maybe it could have a better name than "switchable"?
20:32:25 <zzo38> How can I clarify the covering keyword?
20:32:41 <zzo38> I added one more sentence but I am not sure it clarifies it.
20:34:25 <zzo38> One which I previously missed; it says: Creatures with covering are also required to come in the damage assignment order before creatures without covering.
20:35:49 <AndoDaan> zzo38, you wrote the wiki entry on Wang B-machines, right?
20:37:24 <zzo38> AndoDaan: Do you mean esolang wiki? I added a paragraph to the "Wang program" article.
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21:08:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, that makes covering clearer, thanks
21:13:43 <b_jonas> covering seems to be a bit similar to banding, at least on a potentially blocking creature
21:19:58 <pikhq> ais523: I'm glad that they got a round two of Pokemon Plays Twitch going with your script.
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22:02:23 <newsham> whoa! http://www.pagetable.com/?p=774
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00:28:48 <oerjan> <b_jonas> also, people, if you understand how these crazy automaton that are turing complete but require exponential time work, try answering http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/21525/8067 Conjecture about two counters automata <-- i understand how they're TC but not so much how to prove that things can still be impossible with the wrong input format. commented on a simpler subproblem mentioned, anyway.
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00:51:12 <Taneb> Ugh, bouncer crashed, lost all my channels
00:52:23 <Taneb> Trying to remember where I was
00:52:27 <Taneb> If you've seen me leave a channel and not rejoin, please tell me?
00:53:00 <oerjan> you've rejoined all 1 channels we have in common hth
00:53:07 <Taneb> oerjan, good to know
00:53:20 <Taneb> My list of channels feels... empty
00:54:22 <oerjan> clearly this show the danger of relying on technology hth
00:55:46 <Taneb> I am not sure where you are adding that s
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00:59:29 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. you left the various trains channels.
00:59:54 <Taneb> I'm still missing some, I'm sure
01:01:43 <boily> meanwhile, I shall lâchement disappear. it may involve a shiny new mattress. 'night all!
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01:08:41 <oerjan> ok so much for looking at the _real_ question of that cstheory post, the main method of the linked article is completely impenetrable to my brain.
01:09:12 <oerjan> (holy shit so many indices)
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01:14:00 <oerjan> looks like there was a netsplit apocalypse earlier today...
01:15:04 <Taneb> I think I've got most of the channels I care about
01:15:25 <elliott> Taneb: have you considered putting them on autojoin
01:15:38 <Taneb> elliott, they were, the bouncer had quite a serious crash
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01:16:02 <elliott> it doesn't save its state to disk...?
01:16:03 <Taneb> Also I am now going to bed
01:16:33 <Taneb> I don't know, a friend runs it
01:17:41 <oerjan> well those logs just got a lot quicker to get through
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04:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41682&oldid=41680 * BCompton * (+22) Stub, Dead link templates
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06:18:13 <oerjan> so the biggest difference was henkma not using an operator
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06:19:05 <int-e> right. the 40 alphanum version I spoke about replaced the two _ by letters as well.
06:20:03 <int-e> ohwow. char*p=sbrk(1)
06:21:07 * shachaf looks for what's being discussed there.
06:22:07 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Kimariji is over and the code has been revealed
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06:26:12 <oerjan> int-e: let me guess, that entry is horrifyingly undefined behavior
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06:28:55 <int-e> I'm not sure how it works yet.
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06:29:12 <int-e> oerjan: of course the allocation is completely undefined
06:31:46 <oerjan> i'm assuming it works in practice because allocations are always done in whole pages...
06:32:09 <int-e> well, here's a hint ... the program segfaults if I submit it as is.
06:32:47 <int-e> (I can only assume that it segfaults almost always, but not all the time)
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06:34:18 <int-e> and I don't understand why it has *t++ += *p instead of *t++ = *p...
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06:41:15 <int-e> Oh, I get it (and actually that includes the +=). The loop body works perfectly fine.
06:41:41 <int-e> it's the allocation and the b%65 check that are iffy.
06:42:28 <int-e> and apparently anagol uses ASLR :P
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06:46:19 <int-e> err no, I still don't get the +=
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06:49:32 <int-e> Ok, after *t=read(0,p+1)+p, t points to the last character read (a newline), and p points to a zero byte; the first *t++ += *p keeps that final newline intact.
06:52:31 <zzo38> How did banding used to work in Magic: the Gathering if opponent is attacking with one creature with trample, and if I block with fifteen creatures, one of which has banding?
06:52:46 <zzo38> I mean how it works in Fourth Edition, not how it works under current rules.
07:01:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: ugh, I have no idea how the rules worked back in fourth ed
07:01:49 <b_jonas> I don't even really want to know
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07:04:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I wanted to say something about those keyword abilities you list
07:05:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: I sort of like Covering, because it's similar to banding but simpler
07:05:14 <int-e> oerjan: oh. The total input plus output size *barely* fits into a single page on x86: it's 3979. So that explains the segfaults... they happen when the *next* page is accessed.
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07:05:39 <b_jonas> though of course I like banding for nostalgy reasons even if the rules for it are somewhat complicated (and I'm not even sure I understand them right, I'll have to re-read them)
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07:07:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think "retract" sound like a bad name for a keyword ability because it is one letter off from "retrace" and there's also a card named "Retrace"
07:08:02 <int-e> oerjan: So I believe I understand the program now, except perhaps the %65 (I have a calculation where the 65 comes out, but have not thought through an off-by-one phenomenon involved.)
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07:09:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: for "switchable", I sort of like the idea, but I think it would be better if defenses didn't have to be legal after you rearrange the creatures.
07:11:16 <b_jonas> that's sort of how banding works as well: the defending player declares blockers ignoring banding, checking evasion and must block and other similar abilities; then creatures that block a creature in a band are magically set to block all other creatures in the band too, without checking anything.
07:11:27 <b_jonas> I think. But I might be misunderstanding the rules.
07:12:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: apart from covering and switchable, I don't really like these keyword abilities at first look.
07:12:24 <b_jonas> but that of course doesn't mean much.
07:13:05 <b_jonas> and of course you might want to list at least one example card for the keywords.
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07:15:21 <zzo38> I am not at home right now so I will not fix it right now, although about changing the name it is correct.
07:15:31 <zzo38> Also I actually thought of other ideas to change some of the things too
07:15:51 <zzo38> Also, I can understand how banding works now and I do like it
07:16:01 <zzo38> But I still needed to know how it used to work, due to a puzzle
07:16:18 <b_jonas> I like bandding as well, but probably partly for a nostalgy reasons
07:16:46 <int-e> owww. a=list(open('../fd/0'))
07:17:01 <b_jonas> like, I'm upset on how Benalish Hero is stripped of his well-deserved Hero title because Hero is no longer a creature type
07:19:14 <elliott> int-e: anagol programs run in /dev??
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07:21:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: I'm not so sure that Hero is really a necessary creature type anyways, it doesn't seem to me working as well as using the more modern creature types, but I don't know entirely for sure. However, none of that changes the name of the card, so it still says "Hero" on the name, if you want it to say "Hero" on it.
07:22:49 <int-e> elliott: nope. they run on /golf/test, and there's a symlink in /golf
07:23:10 <int-e> elliott: it's possible that at some point they were run in /dev or in /proc/self...
07:23:30 <int-e> err, no, the latter is wrong
07:24:04 <int-e> elliott: in /dev/shm probably
07:24:55 <elliott> wait, /dev/shm has fds in it?
07:25:03 <int-e> elliott: note the ../
07:25:37 <int-e> (note also that I'm speculating about where the programs used to be run.)
07:26:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, the hero is still there in the name and flavor text
07:29:15 <b_jonas> some of the old banding cards are riddiculous of course. they're like “You may assign damage from blocking tapped Griffons you control as if creatures it blocks didn't have “bands with other Legends with plainswalk”.”
07:30:40 <zzo38> I haven't seen stuff like that
07:30:48 <b_jonas> It's the simple cards with ordinary banding that I like. I have a playset of Benalish Hero, and at least one of the bigger soldier, the griffon, the green elephant, the Helm of Chatzuk (or whatever is spelled), and maybe one or two others.
07:32:53 <zzo38> In some article by Wizards of the Coast I saw "Friendly Goblin" which has "Bands with other Minotaurs", and then discuss the rules below; they claimed how the older rules work, but now there are new rules for "bands with other" which are more sensible and this work in the better way.
07:32:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's an exaggeration. the actual bad cards are the _cycle_ of Cathedral of Serra, plus Shelkin Brownie and Great Wall
07:33:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the way they errataed "bands with other" to be more powerful shows how riddiculous that ability used to be
07:33:47 <b_jonas> the old rules said you could form bands only if _all_ creatures in the band had the same "bands with other" ability
07:34:15 <zzo38> Yes I know that's how it worked before, and I know how it works now, too. I read about that.
07:35:09 <b_jonas> those riddiculous old cards are what Old Fogey parodies, and I for one think it's a great parody
07:35:10 <zzo38> It doesn't mean I know how exactly banding used to work in general, only how "bands with other" creatures banded (which doesn't explain what it does, though, just what it bands with).
07:35:11 <vanila> http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.5184
07:36:10 <elliott> "that is the Kolmogorov complexity of their Kolmogorov complexity is small" x_x
07:38:00 <b_jonas> luckily, that suckiness of "bands with others" is relevant on only a few cards (besides Old Fogey), because the Cathedral of Serra cycle gives all the relevant creatures the ability, Master of the Hunt create tokens that used to have a unique creature type so they couldn't band with anything else anyway (it's no longer a creature type), and there's basically no other card with that ability
07:40:11 <b_jonas> oh, it's a pegaus, Mesa Pegasus, not a griffin
07:40:31 <b_jonas> and the banding elephant is white, not green
07:40:48 <b_jonas> (it's a trained war elephant with someone sitting on it, not a wild elephant)
07:41:11 <b_jonas> and there's two bigger solders I've been confusing: Pikemen and Icatian Phalanx
07:41:33 <b_jonas> no wait, there's a griffin too
07:45:10 <zzo38> I once saw a scale where they guess how likely it is for certain things to be used again in later sets, on a scale of 1 meaning most likely and 10 meaning least likely; on that scale, "bands with other" is at 11. Nevertheless I may write some cards with banding and/or bands with other, too.
07:45:10 <b_jonas> that means, incidentally, Shelkin Brownie is almost useless in the new rules,
07:45:10 <b_jonas> because if you have _one_ creature lose "bands with other", it can still band because the other creatures have it
07:45:10 <b_jonas> (not that it was useful before)
07:45:10 <b_jonas> but just straight banding is great
07:45:10 <b_jonas> even if we won't see it again
07:45:15 <shachaf> "with other legendary creatures" would be a good name for a band
07:46:32 <zzo38> Well, I also want to write a card with "protection from legendary".
07:46:55 <b_jonas> I mean, we probably won't see Scryb Sprites again either, but that won't stop me from liking it and trying to use it in decks
07:46:57 <zzo38> Or, "protection from legendary and planeswalkers"
07:48:05 <b_jonas> protection from legendary? hmm... what color would that want to be?
07:48:59 <zzo38> A lot of protection stuff seems to be in white but it can be in any colors.
07:49:58 <b_jonas> White has the general "choose a color, ... has protection from that color" stuff, and prevention effects in general
07:50:17 <b_jonas> like, Order of the Stars and any of the dozen instants or enchantments that give protection from chosen color
07:50:49 <b_jonas> but all colors get specific themed protection effects
07:52:57 <zzo38> Of course each color also has two opposites
07:54:35 <b_jonas> yes, that's why most color hosers like Honorable Scout go for opposite colors, though some go for neighbuoring colors
07:54:54 <b_jonas> I'm trying to learn to spell "neighbor" and "behavior" consistently in the american spelling
07:55:17 <b_jonas> (I don't claim I'll try to learn that for the more complicated words too, just for the common ones "color", "neighbor", "behavior")
07:56:10 <zzo38> But you can find white cards with protection from any colors, including white
07:56:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, because white gets all the preventation effects since the Circles of Protection
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07:57:54 <b_jonas> Searching for "legandary" in rules text, let's see. There's "Ayumi, the Last Visitor", Empress Galina, Feast of Worms, Hero's Demise (it doesn't kill Heros because they demoted Heros),
07:59:37 <zzo38> White card with protection from white would also be protected from damaging itself, such as the "confusion" keyword I made up, and possibly also a few other cards
07:59:55 <shachaf> hm, Hero's Demise is p. different from Hero's Downfall
08:01:34 <shachaf> zzo38: What is the "confusion" keyword?
08:01:50 <b_jonas> Tsabo Tavoc, Willow Satyr. wow, that's a lot of legend hosers.
08:02:06 <zzo38> shachaf: You would have to look it up on my computer
08:02:21 <b_jonas> s/Livona Silone/Livonya Silone/
08:02:36 <shachaf> zzo38: But I always lose the link.
08:03:26 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt.
08:03:38 <b_jonas> oh right, and Limited has a full Ward cycle, a cycle of one mana auras giving protection from a particualr color
08:04:44 <zzo38> I will probably change a few of the keyword abilities too. The names of "retract" and "switchable" probably should be changed, and for covering I intend to allow it to have something similar to forming bands but for blocking instead of attacking
08:05:59 <shachaf> zzo38: You should teach HackEgo that link so I can fetch it when necessary.
08:06:05 <zzo38> Another thing I thought of is "protection from permanents". I think it would still allow you to play an Aura on such a card, but then the Aura is immediately going to be discarded. It might still be useful if it has modular or reduces the toughness of a creature, though.
08:06:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Why don't you add the file to HackEgo? (Also, you should remove the extra period at the end please)
08:07:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: Unquestioned Authority is one of the best cards that give protection
08:07:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Your HTTP server seems to ignore trailing periods.
08:07:52 <zzo38> shachaf: Even if it does, please remove the trailing period anyways. Also please preserve the case of everything after the domain name, even though it ignores case too in most cases.
08:08:15 <b_jonas> also, as I like protection, I hate "damage can't be prevented" effects that hose it
08:08:24 <shachaf> `slashlearn zzo38mtg/http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
08:08:34 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe wisdom isn't the best place to put it.
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08:10:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you turning Arcbound Wanderer into double scoop french vanilla?
08:10:48 <zzo38> I also still like to see what tasks there might be for Magic: the Gathering. I suppose one task is positions where nobody knows whether or not it is a draw, because of some unsolved mathematical problem or something. Other tasks could be ones where you need to get priority during the cleanup step in order to win, or ones involving conceding.
08:11:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, because I don't like the way they originally designed it, which just doesn't make much sense to me and looks stupid to me.
08:12:11 <Jafet> Ugh, it turns out that linux limits the number of mmap regions for each process. (Oddly, it returns ENOMEM when you reach the limit.) Fortunately, it can be increased with sysctl.
08:12:46 <shachaf> zzo38: Why does Persisting Torture have Unleash?
08:13:11 <shachaf> Ah, I see, you might not want the counter.
08:13:36 <zzo38> For one thing I think it makes it persist even more due to the rule that cancels out +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters.
08:13:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, wait, and there was one more thing
08:14:17 <zzo38> Normally, no, but I have deleted the rule that disallows auras that are also creatures from being immediately placed into the graveyard, therefore auras can block.
08:14:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: Like I said I cannot fix this file now; maybe on weekend though, I am not at home right now.
08:14:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: the overlay keyword seems a bit dangerous. is there really rules support for gaining all abilities of an arbitrary permanent?
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08:15:27 <zzo38> I believe so, even though many abilities will do nothing on some permanents.
08:15:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: at least it shuold gain only its text box, not all abilities (including ones conferred from auras which may reference thos auras)
08:16:19 <zzo38> I did think of doing that but decided against it; however I may have been wrong
08:16:38 <zzo38> Perhaps copy of what is in the text box is better (like how splice does)
08:18:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you mind if I show some people that link?
08:18:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: think of copying from a creature that has a Nettlevine Blight linked
08:19:23 <zzo38> shachaf: It is fine if you show it; it is all public domain. However be aware that the contents of the file are subject to being changed (although it is likely that much of it will be kept with only minor changes, this isn't completely guaranteed).
08:19:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: also imagine a creature getting multiple characteristic-setting abilities that set its p/t. I think the rules handle it, but it's awkward, and even copying the text won't help that.
08:19:32 <shachaf> zzo38: How does Terrible Plan work?
08:19:49 <shachaf> You're not required to play it if you draft it, are you?
08:20:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's a reason why so far we only have "overwrite with copy plus this particular ability" effects and "gains all activated abilities of target" effects
08:20:18 <zzo38> You aren't required to play it if you draft it, but if you don't, you won't get the ability of some other conspiracies that require that you *do* use all cards you draft!
08:20:58 <shachaf> Ah, there was that card that let you get any color of karma from basic lands.
08:21:56 <zzo38> And if it is a draft that includes both Emblegoyf and Terrible Plan, you might play it to give Emblegoyf +1/+1 at the cost of you lose 5 life points (although this still probably isn't the best strategy; although perhaps it helps with other cards too)
08:22:54 <b_jonas> hmm, now I wonder how that thing would work Nettlevine Blight
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08:26:44 <shachaf> I had a question about Pact of Negation once: Are you required to pay mana for it at the beginning of your next upkeep if it's in your mana pool? If it isn't in your mana pool, are you required to activate mana abilities for it?
08:27:00 <shachaf> For some reason it says "pay ..." and not "you may pay ..."
08:27:53 <zzo38> I believe that you are never required to activate mana abilities even if something forces you to pay a cost with mana (in such a case, paying the cost fails).
08:28:02 <zzo38> I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is how it works.
08:29:41 <shachaf> But if the mana is in your mana pool, you're required to pay it?
08:30:31 <shachaf> (Even if you control a Platinum Angel, for instance?)
08:30:52 <zzo38> That I don't know.
08:31:08 <b_jonas> I want to use Gorgon's Touch on a Taunting Elf
08:32:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's something about that in a faq iirc: it's deliberately mandatory to pay because otherwise tournament players would accidentally forget to announce that they pay before they untap and so lose the game on a technicality
08:32:56 <b_jonas> and they didn't want to annoy players with that
08:33:15 <shachaf> You pay in your upkeep, but fair enough.
08:33:37 <b_jonas> yes, that's even more serious, because drawing gives you new information
08:33:43 <shachaf> (Making your pay before you untap would defeat the purpose.)
08:34:30 <shachaf> What happens if you accidentally draw?
08:35:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'm not quite sure, that's a tournament rules question not a comprehensive rules question
08:35:16 <int-e> Then you lose? I mean you saw the card, and thus have extra information.
08:35:35 <shachaf> b_jonas: I know, but you just brought it up. :-)
08:35:37 <int-e> Which may affect how you pay the cost, for example.
08:35:38 <zzo38> Same as in any other card game I suppose?
08:35:59 <b_jonas> shachaf: I imagine the judge would give you a warning and determine what you tapped to pay for it
08:36:21 <b_jonas> which might be bad but not as bad as losing the game
08:36:38 <zzo38> Are there any mana abilities that care about your life total or cause you to gain life?
08:36:57 <shachaf> zzo38: Shadowmonger would be interesting if any player could use the ability to add or remove Shadow until end of turn.
08:37:06 <shachaf> You could call it Sneetch.
08:37:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: almost. there's Grove of the Burnwillows
08:37:53 <zzo38> OK, although why that name? I'm not complaining I just ask.
08:38:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's also mana abilities with life payment costs, which sort of care because you can't pay if you ahve too few life
08:38:39 <shachaf> zzo38: After this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories
08:38:41 <zzo38> Yes but those aren't the things I meant
08:39:04 <shachaf> Well, the first story in that book. I don't know if you've read it.
08:39:13 <zzo38> I have never seen it
08:42:02 <b_jonas> int-e: the sest faq says "Paying the mana at the beginning of your next upkeep is not optional. However, playing mana abilities to generate the mana is optional. The effect can't force you to tap your lands, but it will force you to spend mana in your mana pool if you've generated enough."
08:42:54 <shachaf> b_jonas: Ah, that answers my question.
08:42:56 <zzo38> That was actually my guess too
08:43:11 <shachaf> It was my conclusion too when I was wondering about it a while ago.
08:45:17 <zzo38> I tried to make up a somewhat better puzzle which is based on puzzle.1 which I called puzzle.2 although it isn't particularly good either; at the bottom I listed some possible improvements.
08:47:28 <zzo38> Another kind of task might be a task where your cards in hand are same as opponent's cards in hand and your response is required to be the corresponding card based on what card opponent played. It is a little bit like a Babson task I suppose, but not really.
08:48:00 <vanila> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus
08:48:07 <vanila> This is even shorter than Haskell's 23 byte long
08:48:07 <vanila> nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
08:48:22 <vanila> even though the haskell one uses a bunch of high level prelude stuff..
08:49:42 <elliott> to be fair, you could probably write a haskell one that gets rather close
08:49:46 <elliott> except for the fact that you won't have the bit encoding
08:50:02 <elliott> but representation things like that are a little cheaty as far as kolgomorov complexity goes
08:50:15 <elliott> vanila: well, worst case you can just write it as haskell lambdas with newtypes as necessarily :p
08:50:21 <Jafet> > length "nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]" * ceiling (logBase 2 (genericLength $ nub "nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]"))
08:50:24 <vanila> thats giong to be way longer!
08:50:35 <elliott> yeah but it evens out for programs that aren't really short to start with
08:50:44 <zzo38> But some such things are reason I want to invent a programming language for writing the rules of Magic: the Gathering and other similar kind of games and for the cards for them
08:50:47 <elliott> you always get like at least over *8 just because of syntax
08:50:56 <elliott> but that's kind of a boring way to win golf
08:51:31 <Jafet> Most of that article shouldn't be on wikipedia imo
08:51:33 <elliott> it would be fun to have a bit strings <-> closed lambda terms bijection
08:51:42 <elliott> (in BCT they can be open too)
08:53:19 <zzo38> I did think of ideas of it, such as that the program consists of zero or more "extensions", so the programs form a idempotent commutative monoid, however some combinations of extensions are errors. Also, it somewhat resembles a kind of strongly-typed Lisp, and there is five kind of syntax elements: number, string, name, newname, compound.
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08:55:50 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 an idempotent commutative monoid is usually called a (bounded) semilattice hth
08:55:53 <mroman> Facebook has hashtags?
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08:57:27 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 your document says "bands with othe" instead of "bands with other"
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09:07:28 <mroman> well... this is disappointig
09:07:39 <mroman> txt <- readFile "src.hs"
09:09:31 <mroman> looks like with multiple writeFile calls only the last writeFile is actually carried out
09:10:09 <Jafet> writeFile f s creates a file f containing s.
09:10:21 <Jafet> @hoogle appendFile
09:10:23 <lambdabot> Prelude appendFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO ()
09:10:23 <lambdabot> System.IO appendFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO ()
09:10:23 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString appendFile :: FilePath -> ByteString -> IO ()
09:12:18 <Jafet> Actually writeFile replaces the contents if f already exists. How strange.
09:15:55 <elliott> I thought there was a quite of almost exactly that
09:15:59 <elliott> why are the quotes so bad.
09:16:07 <elliott> mroman: it's because of lazy IO
09:16:18 <elliott> maybe lazy IO works fine there
09:17:59 <vanila> echo " Hello, world" | ./tromp
09:18:18 <vanila> <- the first half of this byte is 0100 the identity function (= 'cat' program)
09:23:34 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/118411
09:29:42 <vanila> how to write 'take 10' to get a finit list from the primer program
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09:35:23 <vanila> how is the input and output stream represented
09:35:31 <vanila> i dont know the data formats
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09:44:22 <vanila> what are the data formats for input and output?
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10:19:00 <vanila> can anyone help me with BLC
10:19:13 <vanila> echo "\i (\c n n)" > four && cat parse.Blc four | ./tromp > four.blc
10:19:20 <vanila> it segfaults when i try to run it
10:20:28 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus#Binary_I.2FO this describes the IO btw
10:21:04 <elliott> z is soem terminator thing
10:21:52 <vanila> I got it to output 0 and 1 thanks
10:22:14 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/118412
10:22:52 <vanila> "The z appearing in the above expression requires some further explanation."
10:22:58 <vanila> and there is no further explanation
10:22:59 <elliott> is there a combinatory logic system that doesn't have massive overhead over lambda terms?
10:23:34 <vanila> because turning a lambda term into SK makes it bigger
10:23:46 <elliott> I feel like if you can avoid dealing with variable binding that is nicer
10:24:19 <vanila> oh it does go into more detail about z...
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11:32:41 <Jafet> Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS.
11:36:49 <b_jonas> Jafet: have you submitted yours by the way? I think at least one still fits
11:40:32 <Jafet> It's right there in the linked newsgroup thread, which I didn't read before.
11:44:46 <boily> are all sequences on OEIS infinite?
11:45:31 <Jafet> Some are believed to be: http://oeis.org/A001220
11:46:00 <b_jonas> boily: no, it has finite sequences
11:46:24 <b_jonas> boily: there is even a "fini" flag for sequences, I don't recall if it means it's finite or that all terms are listed
11:46:41 <b_jonas> boily: the rule is that there has to be at least four terms listed
11:47:19 <b_jonas> boily: http://oeis.org/eishelp2.html#RK , keywords "fini" and "full"
11:47:52 <boily> Jafet: two glorious terms in the sequence!
11:47:58 <boily> b_jonas: interesting.
11:48:05 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently it's not, because A029495 has only three terms
11:48:16 <b_jonas> yeah, A001220 has only two
11:48:45 <b_jonas> there are a couple of other sequences with only three
11:49:14 <b_jonas> and look A076337 has only one term listed
11:49:19 <b_jonas> is there any sequence with no term listed?
11:49:54 <b_jonas> I don't have the full database downloaded, so there might be more such things
11:52:56 <b_jonas> the most frequent keywords are "nonn" and "easy" by the way
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15:51:43 <Taneb> I had my first Ring Theory lecture today
15:51:49 <Taneb> One thing in it annoyed me
15:52:00 <Taneb> The definition of a ring slightly differs from the one I am used to
15:57:02 <vanila> what was the difference
15:59:34 <Taneb> vanila, I'm used to multiplicative identity being a ring axiom, in the lecture it wasn't necessary for something to be a ring
16:01:13 <vanila> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rng_%28algebra%29
16:01:37 <fizzie> That's the silliest name.
16:23:48 <mroman> PRNG-Algebra is my favorite kind of algebra.
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16:47:03 <J_Arcane> Heh. There's a Codewars 'kata' to implement a befunge interpreter.
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17:51:56 <FireFly> There's also 'rig': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rig_%28algebra%29
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18:11:28 <J_Arcane> ... some of the homeworks for cis194 are frankly inscrutable to me.
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18:15:41 <J_Arcane> http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html
18:28:22 <int-e> egotistical hacker, hmm. time to stop.
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18:30:11 <J_Arcane> Not even remotely sure I've done this exercise properly yet.
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18:33:30 <int-e> elliott: the phrase appears near the end of the second exercise sheet of that cis194 course.
18:34:09 <elliott> I don't quite understand but okay
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18:35:39 <int-e> elliott: neither did I ;-)
18:36:09 <int-e> (maybe it makes sense if one actually writes the (boring) log file parser stuff)
18:38:52 <J_Arcane> Blargh. I actually have no fucking clue how to use this data structure at all.
18:39:05 <J_Arcane> It strikes me as needlessly arcane.
18:40:18 <int-e> J_Arcane: which exercise?
18:45:39 <int-e> Ah. Exercise 6 makes more sense now.
18:46:38 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:46:53 <int-e> `fetch http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/extras/02-ADTs/error.log
18:46:55 <HackEgo> 2015-01-14 18:46:53 URL:http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/extras/02-ADTs/error.log [330827/330827] -> "error.log" [1]
18:47:33 <int-e> < error.log grep ^'E [5-9][0-9]' | sort -n -k 3 | cut -d\ -f 4 | cut -c1
18:47:41 <int-e> `` < error.log grep ^'E [5-9][0-9]' | sort -n -k 3 | cut -d\ -f 4 | cut -c1
18:47:44 <HackEgo> M \ A \ D \ H \ A \ T \ T \ E \ R
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18:52:06 <int-e> J_Arcane: it's just a standard binary search tree; you can think of Leaf as representing a null pointer.
18:53:24 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I don't really know what that means. Like, I sorta get part of the general principle of binary search, but beyond that I'm lost.
18:53:35 <int-e> So except for the bonus exercise, I think this is all ok.
18:54:28 <int-e> To insert a key into a non-empty binary search tree, compare it to the key at the root; if it is smaller, insert it into the left subtree; otherwise, insert it into the right subtree
18:54:54 <J_Arcane> Yeah, that's my understanding too. My solution here however is ugly and doesn't seem to recur properly.
18:55:37 <int-e> (usually we will then do some more work to keep the tree balanced, but if items arrive in a random order, the tree will be fairly balanced without that extra work)
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19:00:18 <J_Arcane> This is what I have so far, but it's not chewing through a list properly: http://lpaste.net/118427
19:01:21 <int-e> J_Arcane: insert msg l <-- what happens to the right subtree if you do that?
19:02:02 <J_Arcane> Hmm. That's a good question. I should properly be inserting into l, while keeping r.
19:04:03 <J_Arcane> Doing "Node (insert msg l) msg2 r" seems to recur properly, and indeed gives me a sorted list.
19:05:40 <J_Arcane> Now to parse the Tree back out to a List.
19:08:39 <nortti> http://www.mike-worth.com/2013/03/31/baking-a-hello-world-cake/
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19:29:59 <J_Arcane> Nice. Finished it. Thanks for the help int-e
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19:40:14 <glguy> It's unfortunate that that exercise bakes the Unknown constructor into the LogMessage type
19:42:10 <J_Arcane> glguy: Yes. It makes the code a bit awkward, and makes GHC complain a lot about missing patterns that would never happen anyway.
19:42:24 <J_Arcane> It really should've been another message type like the others.
19:43:06 <glguy> J_Arcane: You've finished the whole week 2 assignment now?
19:43:43 <glguy> or the insert function specifically
19:48:20 <J_Arcane> And ran the tests to check for the result mentioned in ex. 6 even.
19:51:34 <Taneb> A friend has suggested that Open Transport Tycoon may be Turing complete
19:51:51 <Taneb> Does anyone who knows the game better have any information on the matter?
19:58:22 <Taneb> Hmm, he's not online...
19:58:39 <Taneb> @ask zzo38 Any idea whether Open Transport Tycoon is Turing complete?
19:59:01 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's only pspace-complete or something like that though
19:59:34 <lambdabot> http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic
19:59:34 <lambdabot> Title: Logic Gates in OpenTTD | 2005-10-21 | zem.fi
20:00:05 <b_jonas> oh right, it's not zzo38 then but fizzie
20:01:54 <mroman> ottd can emulate circuits
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23:34:48 <tswett> So, proofs that the calculus of construction is strongly normalizing.
23:34:56 <tswett> Specifically, syntactic ones.
23:34:59 <tswett> How do those tend to go?
23:36:36 <zzo38> I don't know stuff about Open Transport Tycoon
23:36:49 * oerjan only knew that for simple types, and has forgotten even that.
23:36:56 <lambdabot> shachaf said 14h 41m 5s ago: an idempotent commutative monoid is usually called a (bounded) semilattice hth
23:36:56 <lambdabot> shachaf said 14h 39m 28s ago: your document says "bands with othe" instead of "bands with other"
23:36:56 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 3h 38m 16s ago: Any idea whether Open Transport Tycoon is Turing complete?
23:37:16 <Taneb> zzo38, sorry, b_jonas had you mixed up with fizzie
23:37:20 <zzo38> I will fix my document when I am at home then
23:37:45 <tswett> Isn't there some formally defined class that's sort of like Turing completeness but is for finite things?
23:38:27 <oerjan> tswett: i guess there is something general for curry-howard isomorphic things based on consistent logics...
23:41:36 <oerjan> tswett: NP-complete and PSPACE-complete are things that tend to be proved about finite (but unbounded) things
23:42:13 <oerjan> e.g. generalized sudoku is NP-complete, sokoban is PSPACE-complete
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23:43:01 <oerjan> they're classes that tend to show up, of course there are an infinite number of other steps in the hierarchy
23:46:04 <oerjan> tswett: the problem is, if you have a class that only includes terminating computations, then it's either impossible to describe all elements effectively or you can adjust the proof of the halting problem to make a new class that is strictly larger
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23:47:52 <oerjan> basically, by being automatically terminating, the calculus of construction cannot contain all terminating computations
23:48:54 * oerjan is handwaving something fierce here
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23:50:42 <tswett> My message about "sort of like Turing completeness" was about OpenTTD, not the CoC.
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23:57:06 <oerjan> tswett: i think i gave answers for both :P
23:57:11 <zzo38> They didn't write the mana cost for "Friendly Goblin" so I made it up but I don't know if it is good
23:57:49 <tswett> So lemme think what the notation for all ordinals below the Feferman-Schutte ordinal would be.
23:58:18 <zzo38> However such a thing would give you some advantage for playing more than one creature type
00:01:06 <tswett> Every ordinal number has a Cantor normal form, but certain ordinal numbers have non-terminating Cantor normal forms.
00:02:16 <oerjan> tswett: basically you get trouble once you get to something with alpha = omega^alpha
00:02:36 <tswett> Is it possible to have, say, alpha = omega^alpha + 1?
00:03:06 <oerjan> omega^alpha >= alpha seems clear
00:03:26 <tswett> omega^alpha >= alpha isn't obvious to me.
00:03:59 <tswett> But Wikipedia does state something like that.
00:04:08 <oerjan> well it's true for limit ordinals if it's true for those below
00:04:21 <oerjan> because omega^ is continuous by definition
00:04:41 <tswett> Every ordinal number has a "degree" under Cantor normal form. The degree of alpha is less than alpha, unless alpha = omega^alpha.
00:05:03 <oerjan> and omega^(alpha+1) = omega^alpha * omega > omega^alpha, (or so i hope)
00:05:33 <tswett> Okay, so here's our notation so far. If the ordinal number is greater than its own degree, write it in Cantor normal form. Otherwise, it's a fixed point of exponentiation with base omega.
00:05:38 <oerjan> so omega^(alpha+1) > alpha by induction, so >= alpha+1
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00:06:18 <tswett> In which case it's of the form phi_1(beta) for some ordinal number beta.
00:06:40 <tswett> So we can just write it like that, unless it happens that beta = phi_1(beta).
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00:07:04 <oerjan> and then you make phi_alphas
00:07:22 <tswett> But if that's the case, we can just write it as phi_2(gamma) for some ordinal number gamma. Unless it happens that gamma = phi_2(gamma).
00:07:31 <tswett> In which case you can move on to phi_3, then phi_4, and so on.
00:08:04 <oerjan> and this works until you get to the sad state of phi_alpha(alpha) = alpha, or something like that
00:08:21 <tswett> WP says phi_alpha(0) = alpha.
00:08:33 <tswett> At which point we choose to give up.
00:08:48 * oerjan doesn't remember all that stuff
00:09:48 <tswett> So there we go. All ordinals below Gamma_0 can be written in terms of natural numbers, addition, and the phi function.
00:12:03 <oerjan> um is there some phi thing for getting multiplication and exponentiation?
00:13:01 <tswett> Exponentiation, yeah. phi_0(alpha) = omega^alpha.
00:13:28 <oerjan> ah i guess you don't need multiplication because you only multiply by finite numbers
00:13:31 <tswett> Multiplication by a natural number is just repeated addition.
00:13:43 <tswett> And multiplication by an infinite ordinal might be exponentiation.
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00:14:56 <tswett> So it's probably easy to define arithmetic and ordering on these notations, or something.
00:15:48 <oerjan> you still have the distributive law of multiplication
00:16:08 <oerjan> so you just need to be able to multiply phi terms
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00:17:30 <tswett> Well, every phi term is a fixed point of omega^.
00:17:45 <tswett> So you multiply them by adding them and then omega^ing them.
00:19:26 <tswett> So gee, there definitely seems to be some regularity here.
00:20:16 <oerjan> also sometimes a+b simplifies to b
00:20:19 <tswett> We seem to have a function fixedPoints : (Ord -> Ord) -> Ord -> Ord, which enumerates the fixed points of a function on the ordinal numbers.
00:21:07 <tswett> Obviously, not every function on the ordinal numbers has fixed points.
00:21:39 <oerjan> the "continuous" ones do
00:23:01 <oerjan> and enumerating fixed points of a continuous increasing function gives another one such iirc
00:23:03 <tswett> And doesn't continuousness have some really simple definition? Like, a function is continuous iff the image of a limit is the limit of the images?
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00:24:52 <oerjan> where all the limits are usually increasing in practice, which means it's also just supremum
00:25:34 <oerjan> i think it's an ordinary topology except for the part of not being a set...
00:26:16 <tswett> Let V_kappa be a model of ZFC.
00:28:01 <oerjan> basically, open intervals are open. and non-limit ordinal singletons are open because {alpha} = (alpha-1, alpha+1)
00:28:41 <tswett> Right, it's the order topology.
00:30:33 <tswett> Hm. So, ordinal numbers below epsilon_0 have a certain obvious way to obtain a natural number by substituting a natural number for omega.
00:30:41 <tswett> Just write it in Cantor normal form and then substitute.
00:31:51 <tswett> Can you extend that to the Veblen functions in an obvious way?
00:37:00 <tswett> There's definitely a sort of correspondence between defining large ordinal numbers and just defining large natural numbers.
00:37:19 <tswett> Of course, every natural number, in principle, has a definition.
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00:41:08 <nys> no results for "metacircular microsoft excel interpreter"
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00:47:09 <tswett> I'd like to come up with a theory of arithmetic whose axioms are precisely those statements which are obviously true.
00:47:15 <tswett> But there's a problem with that idea.
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00:47:32 <tswett> Suppose you have a theory T, whose axioms are precisely those statements which are obviously true.
00:47:55 <tswett> T is obviously sound, meaning that T is obviously consistent, meaning that "T is consistent" is an axiom of T.
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00:48:23 <tswett> And so T is inconsistent. Crap.
00:48:48 <tswett> At least, that's the informal paradox.
00:49:34 <oerjan> actually the way around that is simply: T obviously has an infinite number of axioms
00:50:02 <oerjan> thus you cannot formulate "T is consistent" hth
00:50:24 <tswett> Well, you can formulate "T is consistent" if T is definable, right?
00:50:44 <oerjan> now turn this around to a proof that T isn't definable hth
00:51:14 <tswett> What's the smallest ordinal number that isn't arithmetically definable?
00:53:54 <tswett> 12 and a quarter is the smallest ordinal number x such that x * 4 = 49.
00:54:06 <nys> the ordinality of the set of all microsoft excel programs
00:56:30 <oerjan> <Jafet> Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS. <-- those bastards!
00:57:01 <oerjan> @tell Jafet <Jafet> Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS. <-- those bastards!
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01:26:41 <tswett> Here I go, trying to create the perfect programming language again.
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01:30:01 <boily> what is the most important feeling you want to achieve in that programming language?
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01:33:28 <boily> are there collective nouns for punctuation symbols and syntactic features? a décalage of indentations? a surprise of exclamation marks?
01:34:04 <oerjan> i am pretty sure english collective nouns are just a kind of inside joke.
01:35:29 <boily> a weirdness of Norwegians... :P
01:35:38 <oerjan> (mainly because norwegian has no such ridiculous proliferation of specific-to-specific-nouns ones)
01:36:44 <oerjan> we're pretty happy to use "flokk" for almost any kind of bird or mammal
01:37:30 <tswett> I want to be able to write anything clearly and concisely.
01:37:38 <oerjan> insects do get "sverm" instead, i guess.
01:37:54 <tswett> So far, this language looks so wonderful.
01:38:30 <oerjan> boily: are you implying that french has a similarly ridiculous collection?
01:38:40 <tswett> <module> {{ <inductive> List <:> Set -> Set <by> {{ empty <:> forall A : Set , List A ;; cons <:> forall A : Set , A -> List A -> List A ;; }} ;; }}
01:38:48 <tswett> It'll probably look better in the future.
01:39:14 <tswett> All those <:>s are bound to get obnoxious.
01:39:59 <tswett> So far this language is just Coq with worse syntax.
01:40:23 <boily> oerjan: never heard of any. we have the usual «troupeau», «cheptel» and similar. I'd say there are probably some weird cases, but then they are even more obscure than English ones.
01:40:57 * oerjan is forgetting to eat again
01:40:59 * boily stumbles upon the <:>es.
01:41:36 <boily> (my dad was de passage in Montréal tonight. we had a beer and a hamburger each. it was good.)
01:42:26 <boily> oerjan: ah, there's a «banc de poissons», «horde de caribous», «envolée de castors»...
01:47:33 <Lilax> Quick! Give me a very complicated Algebra equation
01:50:19 <boily> no dying in this chännel. it is bad form!
01:50:33 <Lilax> This equation is rediculous!
01:51:37 * boily mapoles Lilax again
01:51:46 <boily> no mocking equations' feelings!
01:52:07 <Lilax> 1/(x-1)+1/(x-2)+1/(x-3)=1/(x-4)-1
01:53:28 <Lilax> > 1/(x-1)+1/(x-2)+1/(x-3)=1/(x-4)-1
01:53:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input ‘=’
01:53:42 <Lilax> I can't lambda the bot
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01:59:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 150100Z 34005KT 15SM SKC M17/M20 A3029 RMK SLP261
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02:04:07 <Lilax> I want to talk about Dark matter , Strange matter and other stuff at school but no one knows what I'm talking about
02:06:00 <oerjan> Lilax: the joke is that e^x = x has no solutions hth
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02:06:24 * oerjan now wonders about complex numbers
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02:16:14 <oerjan> a+ib=e^a*cos(b) + i*e^a*sin(b)
02:16:57 <oerjan> a/e^a = cos(b), b/e^a = sin(b)
02:18:13 <tswett> oerjan: dude, don't you know that one theorem?
02:18:27 <tswett> The function f(x) = e^x - x takes on every value except for at most one.
02:18:28 <oerjan> i may have known it at one time
02:18:51 <tswett> You just have to show that the excluded value isn't 0.
02:18:53 <oerjan> problem is, 0 could still be that one
02:19:03 <oerjan> or there could be _no_ excluded value
02:19:14 <tswett> Of course, if there's no excluded value, then there's a root.
02:19:56 <tswett> I guess I have no idea how to show that the excluded value isn't 0.
02:20:01 <Lilax> So is there really no answer?
02:20:10 <tswett> e^x - x has exactly two roots, if I remember right.
02:20:20 <oerjan> Lilax: there is no answer for real numbers, because e^x > x always
02:20:40 <oerjan> tswett: well they would have to be in pairs
02:20:47 <tswett> Right. Complex conjugates.
02:21:03 <oerjan> Lilax: e isn't a variable, it's the number 2.718281828...
02:21:09 <tswett> x^e = e means x is the eth root of e.
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02:22:57 <Lilax> Yes the e is a number variable in that sense
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02:23:06 <oerjan> > exp(exp(-1)) -- that one is easily solved anyway
02:23:15 <CrazyM4n> http://i.imgur.com/kP3Wn2W.png This is what happens when you leave me in charge of mandelbrot generating :(
02:23:54 * oerjan should check if girl genius has updated
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02:25:50 <oerjan> oh still another paper doll
02:30:48 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php
02:33:11 <oerjan> they're doing an intermission between volumes with paper dolls of several characters, which is a little annoying since the last volume ended on a cliffhanger
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02:36:16 <oerjan> well there's only one cat character, but he's getting all of today's page
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02:44:42 <CrazyM4n> http://i.imgur.com/puFdPvr.png some fractal geek would probably be able to tell me what happened :P
02:45:59 <GeekDude> What happened there is called rasterization
02:48:46 <oerjan> i don't think he's referring to that, GeekDude
02:50:20 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: showing your code might have better odds hth
02:50:32 <oerjan> (i do know what the formula for mandelbrot _should_ be)
02:50:34 <CrazyM4n> https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/5f1f962a39486f3e2baa
02:51:51 <CrazyM4n> I can't, for the life of me, figure out the problem. it should work, but it just *doesn't*
02:52:09 <CrazyM4n> I guess it's still really cool tho so I'm not too mad
02:53:51 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: the last thisComplex in thisComplex = lastComplex * lastComplex + thisComplex; should be the _starting_ thisComplex hth
02:54:40 <CrazyM4n> so this is like a mandelbrot fractal with an evolving seed. coooool
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02:55:44 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: that's like the fibonacci of mandelbrots :P
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02:57:06 <oerjan> GeekDude: it's real^2 + imaginary^2 >4, but abs also takes square root
02:57:36 <oerjan> which btw is a little inefficient
02:57:57 <GeekDude> a^2 + b^2 == c^2, and sqrt(4) is 2, so...
02:58:18 <GeekDude> and I have some optimizations to make to my assembly ¬_¬
02:58:44 <oerjan> wait, because of this?
02:59:23 <GeekDude> oerjan: I wrote a mandelbrot renderer in assembly
02:59:35 <CrazyM4n> now I have a darn off-by-one error to fix somewhere
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04:16:29 <GeekDude> oerjan: http://i.imgur.com/RY9wjd2.png (Not my assembly version)
04:16:46 <GeekDude> That was a mandelbrot render where I redid one of the constants (I forget which)
04:17:11 <GeekDude> Reminds me vaguely of some kind of animal
04:18:49 <oerjan> the red fuzzy two-headed toad
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04:43:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41683&oldid=41682 * Oerjan * (-17) /* External resources */ Wayback
04:49:56 <oerjan> i _could_ add the modern avida homepage which is in a completely different place; this won't help with the fact that the esolang's own specification is absent.
04:51:11 <oerjan> (and the link that once was there hasn't been preserved on wayback)
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04:53:14 <Lilax> Mmm XML parsing documents were an absolute waste of my day
05:04:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41684&oldid=41683 * Oerjan * (+335) explain sorry state; although found something in the old forum
05:07:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41685&oldid=41684 * Oerjan * (+20) Some tense changes seem in order
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05:33:40 <CrazyM4n> My program is really picky about when it wants to offset everything by one
05:33:46 <CrazyM4n> It depends on what input you use
05:34:08 <CrazyM4n> If it's not in the perfect range it spits in your face
05:35:26 <oerjan> is this the same program from the gist?
05:35:59 <CrazyM4n> I've fixed it up a ton but yeah
05:38:26 <oerjan> hm wild guess could it be that floating point errors cause it to sometimes get slightly < xRight and sometimes slightly > xRight, or similar for y?
05:38:53 <oerjan> such that it is unpredictable whether it includes ~ xRight or not
05:39:24 <CrazyM4n> See, that's what I thought originally
05:39:30 <CrazyM4n> But changing it to <= doesn't help
05:39:48 <CrazyM4n> And this is nowhere near the range that I should start having floating point errors on doubles
05:39:50 <oerjan> um it wouldn't help if you were right either
05:40:37 <oerjan> how do the off-by-one errors manifest?
05:40:53 <CrazyM4n> https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/3e8214a45d89f89f79b1 This is what I have right now
05:41:11 <CrazyM4n> And what happens is that occasionally it'll just generate one too little pixel per row
05:41:19 <CrazyM4n> And in turn it skews the whole image
05:42:11 <oerjan> well that could be explained by floating point error as i said. and <= wouldn't help.
05:42:39 <oerjan> unless xStep is a power of 2, you _will_ get some errors.
05:42:49 <CrazyM4n> If it was floating point error, it wouldn't be so reliably wrong though, would it?
05:43:03 <oerjan> well it would be realiable per image...
05:43:08 <CrazyM4n> As in, it when it's skewed, no rows have the occasional correct pixel
05:43:33 <oerjan> no, that's as expected, because in each row the x variables are exactly the same
05:44:19 <oerjan> it's not a non-deterministic error
05:44:47 <oerjan> it depends only on the relationship of xLeft, xRight and xStep
05:45:38 <GeekDude> CrazyM4n: http://i.imgur.com/RY9wjd2.png
05:45:51 <oerjan> i suggest perhaps using an integer counter and multiplying instead
05:45:54 <GeekDude> Also, that was a mandelbrot render gone awry ;)
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05:46:08 <oerjan> or at least using an integer counter to test for stopping
05:46:35 <CrazyM4n> oerjan: I could also go the cheap way, and just introduce the same floating point error in the xPixels
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05:47:15 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: oh actually you could use the ugly trick haskell uses for floating Enums
05:47:39 <oerjan> real < xRight + xStep / 2
05:48:00 <oerjan> it is precisely for preventing this sort of thing
05:48:27 <CrazyM4n> That's terribly ugly. Disgusting, even!
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05:50:19 <CrazyM4n> Aaaand still broken. This time it's generating an extra pixel though.
05:51:17 <oerjan> haskell ranges are meant to be inclusive
05:51:21 <CrazyM4n> I don't get how that'd work but whatever, I'm trying it anyway
05:52:29 <CrazyM4n> That was such an elegantly lazy solution I'm honestly kind of taken aback
05:54:21 <CrazyM4n> I'm going to go to sleep, thanks for that though :P
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06:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41686&oldid=35584 * DDR * (+207) Added note about ComeFrom 2.
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06:57:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41687 * DDR * (+1524) Added a very brief page on CFL2.
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07:30:29 <int-e> Oh I forgot about Krosp... will there be a real comic this week?
07:31:49 <oerjan> well krosp _was_ the last character to have a role in the play
07:33:10 <oerjan> (played by gkika i think)
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07:33:39 <int-e> nah, she was done before the daughters
07:35:13 * int-e is confused about the number of characters now.
07:37:54 <int-e> you're right, of course.
07:38:46 <int-e> and how could I forget the quilting bees
07:42:35 <oerjan> i think she's the only major character left
07:43:26 <oerjan> unless they're going to do clanks and servants
07:44:30 <int-e> we might not see a new story arc till next year...
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09:15:30 <zzo38> I have several ideas about programming language to make up rule of Magic: the Gathering and other stuff, which now I think can be called RULECARD. You can tell me if it look OK to you, if you have other idea about it, etc. One thing would be: You do not need to declare a string to add it to a pool; it is added automatically if used where a string belonging to that pool is expected, but the pool itself must still be declared.
09:17:52 <zzo38> When defining a data type, you can declare it as final. If declared as final, all declarations of that type must be equivalent; otherwise they don't have to be and all are put together, however in such a case none of the declarations of the type are allowed to be final. String pools are never final, the integer type is always final, and some but not all built-in types are final.
09:19:20 <zzo38> Host types should also always be final.
09:20:01 <shachaf> zzo38: I've wondered about such a language before.
09:20:35 <shachaf> It's hard to figure out what you mean without some context about yoru idea for the language.
09:21:47 <zzo38> Host types would be definable using host macros, and are opaque to everything else in the program. Host macros can be defined in an external file, and are not considered a part of the rules of the game, and are only needed to implement the game on a computer. If you are playing the game without a computer, host macros are unimportant and are not needed.
09:24:26 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I don't have a lot of context really, but I would think it would resemble a kind of strongly typed Lisp.
09:28:18 <myname> http://darksky.slac.stanford.edu/simulations/ds14_a/ wat
09:29:44 <zzo38> shachaf: What things are you saying is hard exactly, what question you have, I can try to answer it more specifically?
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09:41:13 <Jafet> 31TB? Must be heavily compressed
09:41:53 <APic> Is there already a C-to-Brainfuck-Compiler out there?
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09:42:33 <Jafet> c2bf compiles a little bit of C.
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09:45:57 <APic> Ok, so probably it would be worth writing an LLVM-Backend like Emscriptem
09:46:09 <APic> I will add that to my .plan
09:46:28 <APic> (Could take some Months/Years until i get to it, but hey… better than no Plan ;-))
09:46:35 * APic structured Procrastinator
09:57:44 <elliott> ais523 had a gcc backend for it
09:58:04 <HackEgo> APic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:01:11 <zzo38> I have heard that LLVM doesn't optimize brainfuck codes particularly well because it wasn't designed to do so. Additional optimizers might be written though, that would allow codes compiled from brainfuck to work better, possibly.
10:03:37 <vanila> hthere was a good blog post about brainfuck optimization
10:03:46 <vanila> their idea was to add new bytecode instrucitons to handle optimizations
10:04:06 <vanila> I think that's a good start, then trying to go higher level by doing analysis of the code
10:09:27 <APic> elliott: Thanks
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10:55:24 <zzo38> How to make the program to optimize a .XM music file by combining, splitting, rearranging, and changing patterns in the file?
10:59:30 <zzo38> First it should unroll all loops and put all rows into one large list, with a song repeat point somewhere inside of the list, and then what next?
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11:43:36 <Melvar> I wonder if it’s a thing to create a pipe and then forkexec with an arg that points the program at the relevant pipe fd to grab its output, when that must stay independent of stdout and stderr.
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11:48:32 <b_jonas> Melvar: yes, that is a thing
11:48:46 <b_jonas> Melvar: you can use either a filename or a file descriptor name
11:49:22 <b_jonas> Melvar: just make sure to keep your close-on-exec flags straight and close unnecessary handles in the parent process, or else you'll leak file descriptors which can cause undesirable side effects like missing EOFs or worse
11:49:42 <Melvar> I was thinking like passing /proc/self/fd/42 .
11:49:51 <Melvar> Or whatever fd you happen to get.
11:49:52 <b_jonas> Melvar: if it helps, j-bot here ^ passes a file descriptor number
11:49:55 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:50:47 <b_jonas> from the bot parent process to each interpreter process, in a command-line argument
11:51:15 <Melvar> I meant without the child process being set up to do this.
11:51:33 <b_jonas> Melvar: you can try it even without
11:51:54 <b_jonas> Melvar: recent versions of bash actually have some helping syntax for this:
11:51:56 <Melvar> Just using /proc/self/fd/ to point it at a file descriptor one has made sure to leave open.
11:52:23 <int-e> `` echo <(echo Hi!)
11:52:41 <int-e> `` cat <(echo Hi!)
11:53:00 <Melvar> Oh, that actually does that. Nice.
11:53:05 <b_jonas> instead of explicitly giving file descriptor numbers like ( someprogram --magical_fd=6 6<somefile ) you can use shell parameters something like ( someprogram --magical_fd=$magical {magical}<somefile )
11:56:13 <int-e> `` help coproc # hmm
11:56:14 <HackEgo> coproc: coproc [NAME] command [redirections] \ Create a coprocess named NAME. \ \ Execute COMMAND asynchronously, with the standard output and standard \ input of the command connected via a pipe to file descriptors assigned \ to indices 0 and 1 of an array variable NAME in the executing shell. \ The default NAME is "COPROC
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14:05:15 <Lilax> OK so calculus 2 end of course exam today
14:05:21 <Lilax> I am going to fail
14:08:36 <Lilax> Because I only know calc 1
14:08:50 <Lilax> and the second course is a lot harder
14:09:09 <Lilax> I didn't Take that class but still they make me ;-;
14:10:17 <Lilax> Also it starts at 7 in the morning so I'm gonna be half dead
14:13:39 <Lilax> Its 6 am right now and I'm on the bus
14:13:48 <Lilax> Headed towards school
14:14:15 <Lilax> Atleast multiple choice is an option
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14:57:22 <shachaf> $ ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -XSafe Unsafe.hs -e "uc 'a' :: Int"
15:02:50 <int-e> shachaf: tell me more?
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15:28:32 <int-e> shachaf: this is not fair. I *know* that unsafeCoerce is sufficient for unsafePerformIO so I need to know whether this works in lambdabot.
15:29:11 <shachaf> int-e: Not sure if I should tell people details right away since it's a security bug.
15:29:21 <shachaf> But I guess you'd be one of the people affected...
15:30:26 <int-e> I'd be happy to know whether this relies on some particular extension or library that I could disable.
15:31:38 <int-e> or whether it comes down to pulling the plug on @run
15:31:56 <shachaf> I thought the whole thing was in a sandbox anyway?
15:32:39 <int-e> It's a VPS that nothing else is running on. I'm not too keen on reinstalling that from scratch.
15:32:51 <shachaf> I wonder whether anyone other than lambdabot relies on SafeHaskell.
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15:36:27 <int-e> there may be some web services
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15:42:59 <int-e> And I guess you're right, I should add an actual sandbox layer.
15:43:20 <shachaf> run lambdabot inside HackEgo hth
15:45:03 <HackEgo> bash: ghc: command not found
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18:55:45 <quintopia> when creating a new language article on the wiki, should one use the year the language was designed or the current year (year it was first published)?
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19:51:14 <`^_^v> as someone who has used the wiki upwards of 5 times, i would say "who cares"
19:54:03 <GeekDude> I say you should put the year in unix time
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20:22:48 <J_Arcane> "head is a mistake! It should not be in the Prelude. Other partial Prelude functions you should almost never use include tail, init, last, and (!!). From this point on, using one of these functions on a homework assignment will lose style points!"
20:23:00 <J_Arcane> O_o That's an ... interesting assertion.
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20:32:08 <vanila> i dont know how people expect to use total functions all the time in a language wthout dependent types or similar
20:32:32 <vanila> you can't express enough in the haskell type system to stick to that doctrine
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20:42:45 <int-e> J_Arcane: that sounds a bit dogmatic
20:46:08 <int-e> > init . tails $ [1,2,3]
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20:46:19 <int-e> > init . tails $ []
20:46:43 <vanila> > tails . init $ [1,2,3]
20:47:23 <int-e> vanila: well I was trying to make a point that "init" and "tail" can be used as building blocks of total functions.
20:47:46 <int-e> > tail . inits $ [1,2,3] -- there's this counterpart, too.
20:48:02 <vanila> > inits . tails $ "qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"
20:48:04 <lambdabot> [[],["qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"],["qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm","wertyuiopa...
20:48:32 <int-e> > (>>= init . tails) . tail . inits $ [1,2,3]
20:49:45 <int-e> I would agree that (!!) tends to be a special purpose operator
20:50:29 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) !! 10
20:50:47 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
20:50:51 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
20:52:15 <int-e> (mainly because when find yourself using !! a lot, lists are probably the wrong data structure to use)
21:10:02 <J_Arcane> Bugger it. I am too fucking braindead to do this homework right now. My brain keeps running in circles.
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21:14:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TrudyWordzvqxsgm * New user account
21:15:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:TrudyWordzvqxsgm]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
21:20:38 <vanila> I know my rights and the BR tag is one of hem
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21:31:11 <J_Arcane> oh lord, I see by a peek ahead to HW4 that my friend the binary tree comes back to visit again. XD
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23:18:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41688&oldid=41687 * DDR * (+2892) Added missing list of operators.
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23:40:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> when creating a new language article on the wiki, should one use the year the language was designed or the current year (year it was first published)?
23:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> year of design obviously, brainfuck's in [[Category:1993]] rather than 200whatever
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00:41:17 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
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01:56:30 <zzo38> Have you ever make up your own kind of Magic: the Gathering card and/or Pokemon card and/or other card game?
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02:52:38 <boily> @tell zzo38 maybe.
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04:20:27 <Lilax> I wonder I why it says I've been online for -9000 seconds
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10:57:11 <kline> based on a true story
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14:07:44 <Lilax> Now i have a better chance at college so that's fun
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15:21:52 <mroman> > (\c -> (\c -> c) 3) 5
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15:30:30 <mroman> Pattern syntax in expression context:
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15:47:53 <lambdabot> Where: ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
15:47:53 <lambdabot> the inferred type of it :: a at Top level
15:48:24 <lambdabot> Found hole ‘_’ with type: GHC.Types.Int
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16:07:03 <mroman> sounds somewhat promising
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16:56:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘m b’ with ‘()’
16:56:32 <lambdabot> Where: ‘a0’ is an ambiguous type variable
16:56:32 <lambdabot> ‘m’ is a rigid type variable bound by
16:58:00 <newsham> doesnt tell me much, no constraints imposed by "modify"?
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17:35:40 <shachaf> int-e: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10000
17:38:43 <GeekDude> e::Send,% (!e?("e",e:=StrSplit(Clipboard),i:=1,s:=0,d:=10):((c:=e[i++])~="\d"?("e",s+=d--*c):(c="x"?("e",s+=d--*10):(c=""?(!Mod(s,11),e:=""):("e")))))
17:38:56 <GeekDude> AKA how to validate ISBNs with one line of AutoHotkey code
17:57:05 <GeekDude> (Disclaimer: I know I can shave a few chars off at least)
17:59:04 <GeekDude> Also, since X is only valid as a last character I can take out the d--*10 and replace it with just 10 while still maintaining usability
18:00:39 <FreeFull> I wonder how much shorter it would be in J
18:01:20 <GeekDude> (0 = 11 | [: +/ (|. >: i.10)*(0".&>}:),0".' 10'"_^:('X'&=)@:{:)@:(-.&'-') '0-7475-3269-9'
18:02:06 <GeekDude> Dunno if that's the best solution in J
18:02:11 <GeekDude> it's the only one I found so far
18:02:34 <GeekDude> much easier in apl, though. Two lines: `S ← 0 7 4 7 5 3 2 6 9 9` and `0=11∣+/(1+⍳10)×⌽S`
18:04:06 <GeekDude> I can probably take some of the parentheses out of my solution sa well
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18:10:46 <int-e> > let check x=last x=="0123456789X"!!mod(sum$zipWith(*)[1..9]$x>>=map fst.reads.(:[]))11 in check "0-306-40615-2"
18:11:45 <int-e> GeekDude: what about the X in the APL code?
18:12:35 <GeekDude> https://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/2s7ezp/20150112_challenge_197_easy_isbn_validator/
18:14:24 <int-e> so few people using the fact that negating [10,9..1] gives [1..10]...
18:15:30 <GeekDude> ok, this is as short as it gets:
18:15:32 <GeekDude> e::Send,% !e?(r:="e",e:=StrSplit(Clipboard),i:=s:=0,d:=10):(c:=e[++i])~="\d"?(r,s+=d--*c):c="x"?(r,s+=10):!c?(!Mod(s,11),e:=""):r
18:15:42 <GeekDude> at least, as far as I'm taking it
18:17:43 <int-e> GeekDude: instead of s+=10, you can do s--
18:18:28 <int-e> I can't really read that code (never mind write it), so I'll leave it at that :)
18:18:39 <GeekDude> And the idea actually works, so +1 to int-e
18:19:17 <GeekDude> int-e: http://ahk.us.to/?p=046341
18:20:18 <GeekDude> := is assignment and = is case-insensitive equivalence check
18:20:51 <GeekDude> I haven't updated that expansion with the latest "optimizations" yet, however
18:22:03 <int-e> oh, bool values just act as if-then-else?
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18:27:44 <JesseH> Does a general purpose programming language with no operators (as in, {, }, +, etc) count as esoteric?
18:28:50 <glguy> GeekDude: Does your solution verify that the ISBN is exactly ten digits?
18:29:09 <JesseH> Oh wait, nope; It's the right one
18:29:14 <GeekDude> JesseH: you're in the esoteric channel
18:29:29 <GeekDude> glguy: No, but does it really need to?
18:29:40 <JesseH> I saw the title and wondered what it had to do with esolangs
18:29:41 <glguy> Is your goal to validate ISBNs?
18:29:44 <HackEgo> JesseH: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:30:29 <GeekDude> glguy: My goal is to complete the challenge in one line, a goal which I've already done to a pretty alright degree
18:30:30 <int-e> glguy: I think we only meant to cover the part that can't be checked at a glance
18:30:42 <int-e> glguy: i.e. the tedious modulo 11 calculation
18:31:12 <JesseH> Waiting on response to my question so I can share. :P
18:31:37 <glguy> "Given the following constraints of the ISBN number, you should write a function that can return True if a number is a valid ISBN and False otherwise." and then it immediately lists a constraint "An ISBN is a ten digit code which identifies a book."
18:32:04 <glguy> I mean, it's a voluntary problem, so do whatever, but I can't imagine why you wouldn't actually validate it
18:32:11 <GeekDude> "To verify an ISBN you: obtain the sum of 10 times the first digit, 9 times the second digit, 8 times the third digit... all the way till you add 1 times the last digit. If the sum leaves no remainder when divided by 11 the code is a valid ISBN."
18:32:22 <int-e> glguy: know a free database of assigned ISBNs?
18:32:23 <glguy> 1 times the last digit
18:32:25 <GeekDude> It does not specify that I have to make sure it's ten digits to verify it
18:32:46 <glguy> It specifies that you should continue until the last digit is multiplied by 1
18:32:52 <GeekDude> JesseH: Esoteric: Intended for or understood by only a particular group
18:33:06 <int-e> besides we should all use the 13 digit ISBNs now
18:33:55 <JesseH> GeekDude, I've made a lang and announced here before, but I'm wondering if a certain lang would fit as esoteric if it's intended to be general purpose.
18:34:02 <GeekDude> JesseH: also, according to the wiki: "An esoteric programming language is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use."
18:34:15 <JesseH> Oh, then this should count
18:34:30 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/noops
18:34:47 <GeekDude> Does anyone here think RainMeter gets way to close to programming territory with its configuration files?
18:34:55 <GeekDude> I "configured" it to pull xkcd comics
18:35:28 <GeekDude> JesseH: What do you have against freenode?
18:35:42 <JesseH> I like to raise controversy.
18:36:04 <JesseH> Have several channels here, but I'm looking to support the another network.
18:37:05 <GeekDude> what about a vague specification for noops?
18:37:59 <JesseH> I'm thinking about it!
18:38:13 <GeekDude> oh, and can we limit the character set to alphanumeric?
18:38:49 <JesseH> Yup! Also I don't really care where noops goes, but I guess a vague spec would be in order.
18:38:53 <int-e> haha. https://twitter.com/fmavituna/status/555769470321688576
18:38:54 <GeekDude> instead of using commas and bangs, we can do "comma is chr44"
18:39:14 <JesseH> Oh yeah, that's what I should say instead of no operators, because is is technically an operator
18:39:29 <GeekDude> int-e: Think that was intentional?
18:40:17 <GeekDude> be aware that my suggested changes breaks your examples :P
18:40:39 <GeekDude> Where do I get a lua interpreter at
18:40:47 <int-e> GeekDude: that's a good question
18:41:05 <JesseH> Also, it wouldn't break my examples
18:41:25 <JesseH> It would add to the language.
18:41:26 <GeekDude> sure it would, your commas and exclamation points would now be invalid
18:41:41 <JesseH> I'm a liar, I must update the repo!
18:43:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41689&oldid=41592 * Rottytooth * (+120) added External resources, link to implementation
18:43:58 <JesseH> If it's 5.3 and it doesnt work, let me know. It should be 5.2
18:44:04 <GeekDude> It's kind of strange to me to see lua being used outside of embedding in other things
18:44:25 <JesseH> That's what I use, for now
18:44:41 <GeekDude> ok, lua is now accessible through the command prompt
18:44:41 <JesseH> Although it should work with all of them. But you never know when something like loadstring might be changed to conform
18:45:32 <GeekDude> I might consider reimplementing in python
18:46:01 <JesseH> I'm most familiar with Lua, and it's fast. A python implementation would be nice.
18:46:37 <GeekDude> I see. At least we have counting ;)
18:46:38 <JesseH> Although, var x is 1 + 1 should work, because of how I'm doing things
18:46:56 <JesseH> I need to loop through and throw an error if any symbols are used
18:47:24 <JesseH> GeekDude, I'm pretty much just turning noops into lua
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18:47:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41690&oldid=41689 * Rottytooth * (+182) /* Instructions */
18:47:56 <GeekDude> what happens if someon does "x is thing;some lua code here"
18:48:01 <JesseH> It might do something silly like "11" though, because it doesnt know what integers are
18:49:27 <JesseH> yay, push coming soon to update noops definition
18:49:47 <GeekDude> warning, no arguments to this script?
18:50:18 <int-e> myndzi! \o/ \o_ _o/
18:50:36 <GeekDude> because my favorite thing to do is pass arguments to the script I'm passing as an argument to another script I'm passing as an argument to a lua interpreter
18:50:49 <JesseH> GeekDude, I like to give warnings
18:51:06 <JesseH> Just in case some noops noob (once args are implemented) forgets to add some args
18:51:14 <JesseH> I think implementing that logic on your own is stupid.
18:51:20 <JesseH> We should get a warning!
18:51:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41691&oldid=41690 * Rottytooth * (+157) /* Instructions */
18:52:17 <GeekDude> because there's noops experts?
18:53:10 <JesseH> I am currently an expert because I know every single thing about it @_@
18:53:17 <JesseH> Not saying much, but what can you do
18:55:44 <GeekDude> significant whitespace is so naughty
18:56:40 <JesseH> I know it some, can help if you need
18:57:00 <JesseH> Also, considering changing discussion to the official channel
18:57:20 <GeekDude> I'm going to write it in AutoHotkey now, python later
18:57:51 <shachaf> int-e: Sigh, https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858
18:57:55 <int-e> I find it funny how much the whitespace thing distracts people.
18:58:37 <GeekDude> int-e: It's annoying me because I'll have to support it in my interpreter
18:58:43 <GeekDude> JesseH: I can't connect to the server?
18:58:52 <JesseH> Try accepting invalid ssl and all that
18:58:52 <int-e> shachaf: ah. but why was it pushed to 7.12?
18:59:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure. A bug that lets you write unsafeCoerce looks kind of serious.
18:59:42 <shachaf> You should comment on the ticket.
18:59:55 <shachaf> Since I've already embarrassed myself enough.
19:00:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41692&oldid=41691 * Rottytooth * (+243) added to top description
19:00:18 <JesseH> GeekDude, Use ssl and accept invalid ssl
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19:12:19 <int-e> shachaf: I did comment on it.
19:12:36 <int-e> not sure whether I should adjust the milestone myself
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19:23:32 <int-e> shachaf: I feel slightly bad for not checking the bugtracker. But then again I didn't report the bug ;-)
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19:31:08 <shachaf> i see what you're getting at
19:32:39 <shachaf> int-e++ # taking care of 9858
19:32:57 <shachaf> Terribly awkward to do this on a phone.
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21:12:42 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure if I successfully told this yet, but I think I left you a message at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow#M:tG_implementation
21:13:05 <b_jonas> about a bug in your M:tG implementation of the cyclic tag machine which is probably fixable
21:20:54 <b_jonas> I wonder if it's possible to use queues instead of cycles directly in M:tG. there's two cards that can manipulate the creature with the highest power, but they don't have the right triggers, so I don't see how you could use them.
21:22:55 <b_jonas> specifically Crackling Doom and Miming Slime
21:26:30 <b_jonas> It might still be possible, but I don't really see a way.
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22:12:37 <callforjudgement> b_jonas: also, crackling doom totally has the right effect, but its main problem is that it's an instant
22:17:59 <b_jonas> You could set up a loop where turns actually pass but the players don't get to draw, and you use Panoptic Mirror to cast a spell each turn in such a way that if the player chooses not to cast the spell nothing happens so eventually has to choose to cast to avoid a loop. But it doesn't seem too easy to do something with that.
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23:37:32 <Sgeo> Someone spammed messaged me some Intelligent Design (of the 'humans made the human race' variety) stuff
23:38:02 <Sgeo> <Guest[#####]> Hello. i'm eRic M France. I'm there to share information concerning theories about our origins. Monotheism & Evolution's theory are based on beliefs 'cause nothing in science can establish that these théories are correct
23:38:03 <Sgeo> <Guest[#####]> However, the new one considering that we have been created by human beings of a most advanced civilisation mastering biotechnologies (intelligent Design) is enlightened with real facts. Wanna read about it ?
23:38:15 <Sgeo> Don't know which channel they found me from
23:40:32 <zzo38> But then how can human make up more advanced human beings too?
23:40:52 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 21h 41m 11s ago: Did you get my messages from before?
23:40:52 <lambdabot> boily said 20h 48m 13s ago: maybe.
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23:45:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's an entertaining hypothesis at least.
23:45:15 <pikhq> It's all turtles all the way down?
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00:20:37 <boily> oerjan: hellørjan. linguistics question: is your "yes" ingressive?
00:21:42 <nys> http://blog.northhighland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Features-300x250.png
00:22:33 <nys> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P3BJ_eMmNjs/Uh-S0FjnG3I/AAAAAAAAAN8/-jIWn91Hnl8/s1600/Success+Content+Diagram+For+Blog.jpg
00:23:18 <boily> nys: those are profundly uninformative.
00:23:22 <olsner> boily: the ingressive yes is at least commonplace in (some parts of) Sweden
00:23:45 <oerjan> :t \x -> x >> modify (+1)
00:23:46 <lambdabot> (MonadState s m, Num s) => m a -> m ()
00:23:52 <nys> the Features one reminds me of the metaclasses diagram in the smalltalk-80 guide
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00:24:16 <oerjan> boily: not usually, i think
00:25:23 <oerjan> i don't think it's common in my dialect region
00:25:29 <boily> olsner: I stumbled upon a short video about ingressive yes in Umeå the other day.
00:25:37 <boily> oerjan: oh well. tfth.
00:26:10 <olsner> umeå is iirc quite far from norway
00:26:17 <oerjan> i have a feeling it may be more common in oslo
00:27:10 <boily> olsner: wikipedia lists examples of ingressives, without specifying regions or dialects. Norway was in there.
00:27:30 * boily adds Oslo to his places-to-visit.
00:29:52 <oerjan> <newsham> doesnt tell me much, no constraints imposed by "modify"? <-- that's a bit disappointing, and it's not lambdabot cutting it off either. although you can use a lambda like above.
00:30:02 <olsner> I use ingressive yes a lot, but it's not really in my dialect (or the dialect around here)
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01:14:38 <oerjan> int-e: shachaf: it's even worse to fix https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:9
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01:36:30 <oerjan> also works without promoted data kinds.
01:37:01 <oerjan> @tell int-e btw the exploits works with just {-# LANGUAGE AutoDeriveTypeable, TypeFamilies, RankNTypes #-}
01:37:45 <oerjan> hm editing trac posts may not be such a good idea
01:37:54 * oerjan only changed Constraint to * -> *, though
01:39:25 <oerjan> > Proxy :: Proxy Constraint
01:39:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Constraint’
01:39:26 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘Contains’ (imported from Control.Lens)
01:39:53 <oerjan> > Proxy :: Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *)
01:40:40 <oerjan> > Proxy :: Proxy (Proxy :: Bool -> *)
01:40:42 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use DataKinds
01:42:59 <oerjan> @tell int-e i see you are missing the first one :P
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01:58:07 <boily> split from his evil twin...
01:58:49 <oerjan> i am not sure whether i should ask someone to remove lambdabot until int-e awakes
01:59:10 <oerjan> (i got around his countermeasure)
02:00:35 <oerjan> it might be overly paranoid though
02:00:42 <boily> unless lambdabot poses a blatant security risk and tries to overtake the world, I guess we're kinda safe with him there.
02:00:51 <boily> (we still have Sir Fungellot to protect us, too.)
02:01:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 170100Z 30016G23KT 15SM DRSN FEW035 M16/M24 A3016 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP215
02:01:12 <boily> see, nothing to frette about.
02:02:33 <oerjan> i mean, i modified shachaf's exploit from earlier today so it still works on lambdabot
02:03:18 <oerjan> otoh presumably there are few people here intelligent enough to guess how _and_ mean enough to mess things up.
02:06:21 <oerjan> it's looking quite awkward to fix the GHC bug now, basically Typeable reps would need to start including kind info
02:07:28 <zzo38> Phyrexian Generator {4} Artifact === {(W/P)(U/P)(B/P)(R/P)(G/P)}, {T}: Add {WUBRG} to your mana pool.
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02:12:58 <boily> oh. I misread the {WUBRG}. it produces all of it at the same time.
02:13:41 <boily> (hm... with some mana-doubling stuff it becomes strangely easy to sneak in a Progenitus and/or a few Emrakuls...)
02:14:29 <zzo38> Maybe the cost of the artifact, or of the ability, may be wrong though
02:14:49 <zzo38> Maybe both of them should be increased by {1}
02:15:48 <zzo38> Or only one of them should be; I'm not sure
02:16:59 <zzo38> Well, with a lot of life and the ability to copy or untap the artifact, you could earn a lot of mana.
02:18:57 <boily> life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource.
02:19:31 <boily> (for the record, only MtG life. I value my own, tyvm hth.)
02:19:56 <zzo38> Yes, but you do start with only 20 life points and can also lose them due to being damaged.
02:20:27 <zzo38> Still it is something that is usable; for now I decided probably to increase both costs by {1}
02:21:20 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource.
02:21:30 <oerjan> you know it had to be done.
02:21:32 <HackEgo> 1230) <boily> life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource.
02:21:44 <boily> bon, maudit. encore une fois...
02:22:05 * boily is reminded that he still needs to fix that damned Greek LaTeX problem...
02:22:52 <boily> zzo38: starting with 20 HP means you have 19 at your disposition.
02:23:28 <boily> (it's a gamble. unless you're playing against a red-deck-wins, it works pretty much all the time.)
02:24:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dotamaria1 * New user account
02:24:39 <boily> example: I have a few Lashwrithes in my monoblack deck.
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02:26:45 <zzo38> Of course it also depend what other cards you have as well as depending whether you play Constructed or Limited
02:27:03 <boily> elliott_: it's broken for you too?
02:27:11 <elliott_> well, it doesn't seem to be authenticating me.
02:27:14 <zzo38> If it is Limited then you might not get more than one copy of some card.
02:27:16 <boily> zzo38: tough choice...
02:27:39 <zzo38> (I always play Limited)
02:28:08 <boily> I oscillate. we play modern during lunch, with the occasional about-monthly draft.
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02:29:03 <shachaf> I was heading in that direction earlier but I stopped when I found the DataKinds things.
02:29:09 <oerjan> since lambdabot is now gone i might just as well link it: http://oerjan.nvg.org/ExploitForIntE.hs
02:29:25 * shachaf is on phome, will look later
02:29:41 <elliott> I need to make it quick again because int-e helpfully made it reconnect unless it quits twice in quick succession
02:29:53 <elliott> which may not even be possible given how long it takes to respond to a @quit after connecting?
02:30:06 <elliott> okay it disconnected now at least
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02:30:34 <boily> oerjan: uhm... I fail to understand the exploit. I guess it puts me in the very mean category...
02:31:39 * boily doesn't want to be mean. (except in coop boardgames :D)
02:32:49 <elliott> oerjan: of course now someone will notice the missing lambdabot in #haskell and spin up a replacement instance on their personal machine, as their normal user account...
02:32:51 <oerjan> boily: haskell has this Typeable class which is supposed to give you safe dynamical typing by allowing casts between types that are actually equal, based on a reified type representation. but there's a bug that allows you to get types with identical representation by using kind polymorphism
02:33:34 <boily> elliott: I ain't be running no cephalopods.
02:33:53 <boily> oerjan: and? it's a typecast. so what?
02:34:30 <elliott> boily: so you can cast IO () to something you can call in pure code
02:35:00 <oerjan> boily: this cast is supposed to be safely enough checked that you can use it Safe mode for running untrusted code, which lambdabot does.
02:35:06 <fungot> boily: he was in the vale of pnath, and the waves of our bidding encompassed all the land of inquanok and saw against the stars, whose course exactly paralleled that of his own two-year-old son, who had hastily translated a few high spots as they came, and he speaks her fnord but he knew his room was fnord in that carven vestige of an older dwelling and which at times almost rose to the intensity of the dreams and legends, this
02:35:35 <boily> quite the interesting bug, I say.
02:35:58 <elliott> I like how "GHC 0-days" are a thing
02:36:45 <oerjan> shachaf's original exploit used the fact that certain "datakind promotion" can give you two types that have the same name in a way that isn't distinguished in the typerep.
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02:37:11 <boily> time for me to have a few nightmares. 'night all!
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02:37:31 <oerjan> i then modified it to use instead the fact that types can depend on kinds in such a way that the kind doesn't show up in the typerep at _all_.
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02:44:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i was intrigued to try this by the fact that int-e's suggested fix in that other ghc trac thread seemed to simple to work
02:56:18 <zzo38> Kinda is not good enough.
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03:07:15 <oerjan> class Kindable (Proxy :: k -> *) where ...
03:07:39 <elliott> oerjan: lowercase p, surely
03:07:39 <Lilax> that's not a word /o/
03:08:02 <oerjan> elliott: it's supposed to parametrize over the kind, not the type
03:08:14 <oerjan> elliott: well maybe proxy works
03:08:24 <elliott> oerjan: k -> 1 would be best
03:08:28 <elliott> for the obvious definition of 1
03:08:28 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just thinking about what they'll need to _really_ fix that bug
03:08:49 <oerjan> because you need kinds in typereps
03:09:12 <elliott> they just redid Typeable to be all polykinded, too...
03:09:31 <oerjan> yeah but kinds arent't poly-(sorted?) yet
03:10:09 <oerjan> the dependent typing investigations will unify types and kinds, though
03:12:19 <Lilax> Ive finally made a play bot
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03:16:11 <oerjan> i suspect int-e will have to disable type families, iirc gadts are safer because there's still a dynamic check remaining
03:16:49 <oerjan> well i guess he could refrain from importing cast, but maybe there are ways to sneak around that with other things using Typeable
03:17:12 <oerjan> Lilax: we found an exploit in ghc haskell, which affects lambdabot's sandboxing
03:17:57 <oerjan> yeah but it requires several ghc extensions to work, so int-e can probably find one to disable
03:18:20 <oerjan> (he tried disabling one earlier today, but i found a way around that)
03:18:24 <Lilax> I wondered why lambdabot wasn't on
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03:20:02 <oerjan> hm the RankNTypes is probably not needed either, let me see...
03:21:08 <Lilax> Making a currency system that updates on how many products the user has and upgrades/ lvl system is hard to maintain
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03:22:32 <elliott> oerjan: oh are they thinking about adding full dependent typing?
03:23:27 <oerjan> elliott: richard eisenberg is
03:23:49 <oerjan> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/DependentHaskell
03:29:42 <shachaf> oerjan: I think linking the exploit was pretty redundant by the time you gave all the information about it.
03:30:36 <oerjan> ok i don't need RankNTypes to cast between two concrete types
03:31:13 <shachaf> I didn't use RankNTypes in my original version of the code.
03:31:42 <shachaf> data family F a b p; data instance F a b (Proxy T) = A a; data instance F a b (Proxy 'T) = B b
03:31:49 <shachaf> uc :: forall a b. (Typeable a, Typeable b) => a -> b
03:31:49 <shachaf> uc x = case cast (A x :: F a b (Proxy T)) :: Maybe (F a b (Proxy 'T)) of { Just (B y) -> y; Nothing -> error "oops" }
03:32:04 <oerjan> that's pretty much the way i was just trying to change it
03:32:26 <oerjan> i think that might need ScopedTypeVariables to work for all Typeables
03:32:36 <shachaf> Yes, that uses ScopedTypeVariables.
03:32:48 <shachaf> But you can usually eliminate ScopedTypeVariables uses.
03:33:30 <shachaf> You can probably use GADTs instead of TypeFamilies too.
03:33:46 <shachaf> Though the obvious way of doing it doesn't work because GHC checks the tag even when there's only one possibility.
03:33:51 <oerjan> i thought GADTs ... right
03:34:05 <shachaf> I think there was a way...
03:34:09 <shachaf> How did that one thing work?
03:34:30 <shachaf> http://joyoftypes.blogspot.com/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html does something with GADTs
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03:36:45 <shachaf> So maybe something like that. I'd need to think about the details.
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03:40:39 <Jafet> Do you get a prize for ticket #10000
03:40:59 <shachaf> I hope so, I worked for that ticket number.
03:41:36 <oerjan> well you got a cheer from spj, that must be something
03:41:40 <shachaf> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/query?status=infoneeded&status=new&status=patch&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=reporter&desc=1&order=id
03:42:14 <shachaf> It's a bit anticlimactic that it was a duplicate after all that.
03:42:29 <shachaf> But oerjan made it more interesting.
03:42:53 <shachaf> Is PolyKinds actually necessary for this bug?
03:43:08 <shachaf> (The trouble is that it works even without turning it on.)
03:44:56 <oerjan> shachaf: getting rid of the ScopedTypeVariables is tricky because b is so phantom...
03:46:25 <oerjan> shachaf: i've been thinking if this is one of those things that might be nipped in the bud by ghc's new "only allow inferred types that have all necessary extensions enabled" "feature"
03:47:01 <oerjan> someone should check this with 7.10.rc
03:47:27 <oerjan> the "working without listing PolyKinds" part, that is
03:48:11 <oerjan> or perhaps the necessary stuff is just implied by the other extensions
03:48:11 <elliott> I think it's safe to say at this point that turning a crufty old experimental research compiler into your sole line of security defence is a poor choice
03:48:58 <elliott> I'm not sure what the plan is with safe haskell
03:49:24 <elliott> it doesn't seem to have ever been vaguely secure so what are they going to do, just wait a few years for all the really simple bugs to get ironed out and then say it's secure?
03:49:46 <shachaf> oerjan: What's the issue with turning off ScopedTypeVariables?
03:49:54 <shachaf> supercast :: (Typeable a, Typeable b) => F a b (Proxy T) -> Maybe (F a b (Proxy 'T)); supercast = cast
03:49:58 <shachaf> uc :: (Typeable a, Typeable b) => a -> b; uc x = case supercast (A x) of Just (B y) -> y
03:50:04 <vanila> is this exploit related to deriving?
03:50:50 <oerjan> vanila: only of Typeable, not newtypes
03:51:44 <oerjan> basically the derived typereps of different types aren't always different
03:53:23 <shachaf> So all you need is a way to derive Typeable, and type families or something similar.
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03:59:00 <vanila> ive got no idea what modern haskell is about haha
03:59:04 <vanila> all this dynamic type stuff
03:59:06 <oerjan> shachaf: thanks that worked
03:59:32 <oerjan> vanila: well the dynamic typing is just a small part
04:00:23 <elliott> Typeable has been around for a long time but the poly-kinded stuff that lets this nonsense work is relatively new
04:00:50 <elliott> oerjan: btw bob harper will have a field day with this one
04:01:05 <vanila> everyones like bob you just dont understand haskell
04:01:19 <elliott> to be fair he's done unsafeCoerce with Typeable before
04:01:25 <elliott> but that was back when it was completely trivial
04:01:33 <elliott> (by giving your own manual instance of Typeable before that was forbidden)
04:01:42 <elliott> that was one of his troll posts :P
04:06:40 <oerjan> ok i got rid of StandaloneDeriving
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04:10:11 <shachaf> I just used AutoDeriveTypeable.
04:10:20 <shachaf> Which extensions are you using now?
04:10:37 <oerjan> DeriveDateTypeable and TypeFamilies
04:11:47 * shachaf is back to phone so can't experiment.
04:20:37 <shachaf> By the way, you're also using KindSignatures, which is turned in automatically by TypeFamilies.
04:20:55 <shachaf> whoa, this ssh client is a bit of a scow
04:21:19 <oerjan> are they also turned on by GADTs?
04:21:22 <shachaf> (I'm assuming you're using kind signatures, anyway.)
04:22:03 <shachaf> Not according to http://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-src-exts-1.0.1/docs/src/Language-Haskell-Exts-Extension.html
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04:22:57 <oerjan> shachaf: btw the reason i changed from AutoDeriveTypeable is because lambdabot didn't have it
04:23:36 <shachaf> Would turning off DeriveDataTypeable be enough?
04:23:54 <oerjan> well that's what i'm trying to think about
04:24:28 <shachaf> Back to the old "user Typeable types are unsafe" thing.
04:25:17 <shachaf> Except including derived instances.
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04:31:27 <shachaf> Hmm, how did you do it without StandaloneDeriving?
04:31:52 <oerjan> made an ordinary newtype to wrap it in
04:37:19 <shachaf> Using a newtype also lets you get away with a type family rather than a data family.
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04:39:13 <zzo38> In my opinion it should be allowed to define a class as being automatic, and in such cases you cannot write your own instances but it automatically derives it for all types it is applicable to whether or not the program that defines that type knows anything about the class.
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04:41:36 <zzo38> Typeable should be one such class.
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04:42:08 <oerjan> zzo38: i agree, although this bug wouldn't be helped by that
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04:46:52 <Lilax> Do any of you persons draw?
04:47:07 * Lilax is very much off topic
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04:49:48 <zzo38> Lilax: I am not very good at drawing my brother make the pictures for my computer game
04:50:26 <Lilax> I was doing an art final so I kinda need an idea for a second picture
04:58:39 <zzo38> It isn't something I would know.
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05:22:48 <vanila> int-e, can i msg you about unsafe?
05:26:30 <oerjan> vanila: i don't think int-e is awake yet, or else he'd surely commented on tonight's exploit
05:27:16 <vanila> im wondering how to implement unsafePerformIO with unsafeCoerce: I got a really crashy way and somehow int-e's is more stable.. but it make less sense
05:27:47 <oerjan> vanila: you need to understand how ghc implement's IO inside, i guess
05:28:02 <Jafet> Just make a replicate of the IO datatype
05:28:38 <oerjan> but since the function argument is a weird "this actually takes 0 bytes" type used nowhere else...
05:29:25 <elliott> vanila: just copy the IO and unsafePerformIO definition
05:30:04 <glguy> runST (unsafeCoerce (putStrLn "fun")) is probably the easiest
05:30:17 <vanila> oh lambdabot has runST doesn't it..
05:30:42 <vanila> i got caught up in somethin unecessary then
05:32:25 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/74498 thats' intes
05:38:37 <vanila> runST (unsafeCoerce (do readFile "/etc/passwd"))
05:38:40 <vanila> how come this crashes?
05:38:50 <vanila> i thought it would work fine
05:39:52 <vanila> int-es unsafePerofrmIO works though
05:40:04 <vanila> well it prints most of the file before segfaulting
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05:47:51 <glguy> Did you try adding the stuff I mentioned in the other channel to make it strict?
05:48:06 <glguy> (I'm not sure that that's the problem, but I imagine it's why you switched channels
05:48:49 <vanila> it still crashes but i get some output
05:48:54 <vanila> its kind of interesting
05:51:31 <vanila> i can get lambdabot installed to test this :(
05:52:06 <shachaf> I must say I like this lambdabot absence thing.
05:58:26 <glguy> Yeah, less garbage in chat and if we need to share a type signature or evaluate an expression we can still do it in ghci and paste it
05:59:07 <shachaf> And if we need to see a quote we just ask shachaf to search the logs for it.
05:59:35 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, still with this typeable thing?
05:59:45 <oerjan> yes, and uc 'a' :: Int crashed
05:59:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm trying to see how far i can avoid deriving Typeable
06:00:25 <shachaf> Oh, well, that's not really crashing GHC.
06:00:34 <shachaf> It's easy to do with a GADT that has an invalid tag.
06:00:38 <shachaf> Maybe you did something else.
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06:01:21 <oerjan> i have data E :: * -> * -> * where E :: E a a deriving Typeable i don't think that's invalid
06:02:06 <shachaf> Well, you can use it (and the Typeable kind bug) to make an invalid thing.
06:02:26 <vanila> http://joyoftypes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html
06:02:32 <shachaf> Or maybe you did something else?
06:02:37 <oerjan> (i'm trying to see if having that around is enough not to have to make any other Typeables)
06:02:51 <vanila> lol @ GHC can magically derive (wrong) instances for typeclasses you create ??
06:03:03 <shachaf> oerjan: That's exported from Data.Typeable, for what it's worth.
06:03:10 <shachaf> So you don't even need to derive Typeable for it yourself.
06:03:31 <Jafet> blsqbot: 0 1 {{.+}c!} {1} w!
06:04:26 <Jafet> !blsq 0 1 {{.+}c!} {1} w!
06:04:26 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
06:04:46 <Jafet> !blsq 0 1 {{.+}c!} {99.<} w!
06:05:14 <oerjan> bah but now i need TypeOperators :(
06:06:20 <Jafet> !blsq 0 1 {{.+}c!} {99.<} w!CL
06:06:20 <blsqbot> | {144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1 0}
06:09:29 <vanila> well that was reall yfun to think about
06:12:38 <oerjan> vanila: they've fixed that newtype deriving thing although the fix has other annoying side effects
06:12:50 <vanila> i find it amazing this was ever a bug
06:13:03 <vanila> why wouldn't you derive stuff by creating code and then typechecking it etc.
06:13:21 <vanila> they are like "lets skip typechecking"
06:13:28 <oerjan> vanila: because the code may not be available?
06:13:33 <glguy> Because you wouldn't be able to write the code for some of them
06:13:35 <shachaf> that's what augustss's compiler did
06:13:37 <vanila> the compiler is writing the code
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06:14:02 <glguy> but his compiler 1) cheats where it's convenient 2) can't derive as many instances even when they might be valid
06:14:05 <oerjan> shachaf: istr that too
06:15:17 * shachaf isn't sure how oerjan is crashing with a compiler error using just (:~:), actually
06:15:43 <oerjan> vanila: an important consideration here is that it should be _fast_ by having the wrapping be trivially optimized away
06:16:10 <oerjan> shachaf: but it typechecks :P
06:16:50 <oerjan> i tried readding some Maybes but that didn't help :(
06:17:03 <shachaf> maybe you should try writting them
06:18:31 <oerjan> maybe i've hit another ghc bug
06:19:22 <vanila> i feel bad for haskell
06:19:31 <elliott> vanila: because unsafeCoerce is more efficient when it works basically :/
06:19:44 <elliott> map NewType or map unNewType is like unsafeCoerce but slower
06:20:17 <elliott> the same would apply to fmap *except* if you break the functor laws in an instance you can get unsafeCoerce out of it
06:24:22 <elliott> I had a nice plan to fix it all elegantly but then they went and did something else instead
06:24:35 <elliott> which is probably for the best
06:25:17 <glguy> shachaf: did you decide to go public with your bug report specifically to take lambdabot down?
06:25:40 <shachaf> glguy: I told int-e about the bug before reporting it and he decided to disable DataKinds.
06:25:47 <elliott> it's not like GHC has any process for reporting security-sensitive bugs
06:25:59 <shachaf> Then oerjan figured out that it wasn't sufficient so elliott took the bot down entirely.
06:26:08 <shachaf> I asked thoughtpolice what to do with it.
06:26:24 <Jafet> Does anyone use safehaskell for security?
06:26:25 <shachaf> The conclusion was that I might as well report it publicly.
06:26:29 <glguy> I was just joking due to the lambdabot comment, not actually questioning intent :)
06:26:35 <elliott> if safe haskell is going to be deployed in production then GHC really needs a process for handling security bugs etc.
06:26:40 <elliott> which is basically all soundness bugs :/
06:26:57 <elliott> Jafet: I think byorgey had some web-based thing that accepted arbitrary safe haskell code
06:27:13 <Jafet> I assume int-e uses a chroot wrapped in a VM wrapped in a burrito
06:27:20 <elliott> vanila: basically something that tags modules as safe/unsafe/trusted etc. so you can run arbitrary code that can't import modules with stuff marked as unsafe like unsafePerformIO or unsafeCoerce
06:27:24 <elliott> (including third-party libraries)
06:27:27 <elliott> lambdabot uses it for obvious reasons
06:27:37 <elliott> you can @let import stuff but it won't work if you try to import Unsafe.Coerce etc.
06:28:14 <vanila> they should ues a type system for this...
06:28:14 <elliott> eh, it's an okay idea, it's just not very robust in practice because GHC is complex and has lots of bugs so you can often get unsafeCoerce through other ways
06:28:43 <elliott> an --unsafe--> function type that you can turn off the application rule for
06:29:08 <vanila> they should make a language a bit like haskell but without unsafe stuff
06:29:17 <Lilax> mm burlesque is fun
06:29:23 <elliott> vanila: still the idea is that you can turn on safe haskell and get proper RT and stuff
06:29:36 <elliott> like actually be able to know things about what an (A -> B) can do no matter what haskell file you load
06:29:40 <elliott> as long as you load it in safe mode
06:29:53 <elliott> it just falls down because any GHC soundness bug is a security bug now
06:30:02 <vanila> you could compile to bytecode and have a bytecode interpreter with some settings for its capabilities
06:30:07 <elliott> and GHC just isn't that robust, especially with all the fancy extensions interacting
06:30:14 <vanila> there's so much you can do other than just putting comments in the code "this is safe lol"
06:30:22 <elliott> vanila: well the thing is, you want to be able to call code that is implemented unsafely
06:30:23 <shachaf> You could use any of the standard sandboxing mechanisms.
06:30:26 <elliott> for instance you can use ByteStrings just fine in safe haskell
06:30:44 <shachaf> The idea is that you can rely on the type checker to not have to do that.
06:30:45 <elliott> and you can do things like expose restricted IO monads to the safe code to use
06:31:13 <oerjan> DIDN'T CRASH THIS TIME HTH
06:31:18 <elliott> (code that uses unsafe code to implement a safe interface is called "Trustworthy")
06:31:22 <elliott> (Safe Haskell lets you audit it)
06:31:26 <elliott> (by only letting packages you explicitly trust do this)
06:31:29 <Jafet> > showHex 1152921504606846976 ""
06:31:41 <elliott> (so you can know what unsafe code you are trusting to be encapsulated properly)
06:31:51 <glguy> The only safe haskell is abstinence
06:32:09 <shachaf> oerjan: this is with no extensions?
06:32:33 <elliott> what if you could write unsafeCoerce in pure hindley-milner all along
06:32:53 <elliott> yes yes it probably has a soundness proof or whatever, but what if ZFC is inconsistent too
06:32:54 <vanila> but its been proved you can't
06:33:17 <Jafet> 0day of the century
06:33:32 <elliott> that'll be when we're all relying on proof checkers to run arbitrary code with attached safety proofs
06:33:49 <elliott> urgent patch to the ZFC axioms with a coordinated multi-vendor release
06:33:55 <Lilax> redimensionalize derivative coefficients
06:34:12 <Lilax> redimensionalizing* I guess
06:34:22 <vanila> that sounds very possible except not ZFC but the given proof checker
06:35:19 <elliott> yeah but it'd be more fun if it was the axioms themselves that were broken
06:35:28 <oerjan> shachaf: only TypeFamilies
06:35:29 <Jafet> Most provers have a set theory (but not quite ZF)
06:35:33 <elliott> breaking axiom systems like we do hash functions today
06:35:44 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, you're using TypeFamilies still?
06:35:55 <elliott> eventually nobody runs anything that takes more than peano arithmetic to prove safety of
06:35:55 <shachaf> Were you using it for that (:~:) thing all along?
06:36:22 <vanila> hahaha imagine if PA was the limit
06:36:25 <elliott> http://lpaste.net/81269 some old vaguely-relevant fun to all this
06:36:30 <vanila> everything betond that got proved inconsistent
06:36:56 <elliott> vanila: well, god made the naturals
06:37:13 <vanila> and godel made some weird extra ones
06:37:29 <Lilax> I'm just gonna >_> use that lpaste for notes
06:38:00 <shachaf> i,i there exists a 0-day; if there exists an n-day, there exists an Sn-day; ...
06:38:44 <oerjan> shachaf: um i haven't changed the F part ...
06:38:58 <oerjan> although perhaps :~: could replace it, that's a thought
06:39:22 <shachaf> i thought you were doing something like data Q a b p = A (Is p PT) a | B (Is p P'T) b
06:39:26 <shachaf> except clever and not obviously broken
06:39:37 <Jafet> I have a marvellous blackhat demo that this program is defective, but this pentest form is too small to contain it
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06:41:19 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/Exploit2.hs
06:41:29 <oerjan> is the not very well working one
06:41:43 <oerjan> (i moved the other one into this directory too)
06:42:51 <shachaf> oh, i see what you're doing
06:46:10 <oerjan> do you see why it's breaking too?
06:46:37 <Lilax> are you sure there isn't a import tunnel a bot to quick latex?
06:46:47 <oerjan> btw i tried wrapping in G and it didn't help
06:46:58 <vanila> Lilax, stop talking shit
06:47:27 <Lilax> Why would you say that, it startled me vanila
06:49:29 <glguy> The point is just that polykinded proxy's kind isn't reflected in its typerep?
06:50:16 <shachaf> oerjan: no, i'll look after i get home if it's still unsolved
06:50:16 <oerjan> btw http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/ExploitForIntE.hs is actually working
06:50:37 <oerjan> unlike this new attempt to avoid some extensions
06:51:30 <shachaf> that's just the same as my original code with * -> * instead of T, right?
06:51:39 <shachaf> we've managed to take several extensions off since then
06:52:41 <oerjan> hm another high number
06:52:49 <oerjan> or possibly the same one
06:54:15 <Lilax> ugh calculus pls don't do this to me
06:54:32 <oerjan> hm the explicit Typeable constraints aren't needed
06:55:25 <shachaf> oerjan: the Core for your code is funny
06:55:47 <glguy> Paste for those of us on phones?
06:55:50 <shachaf> supercast = \ @ a5_axk @ b_axl w_s1pg _ -> $wsupercast w_s1pg
06:55:57 <shachaf> supercast completely ignores its non-E argument
06:56:09 <shachaf> but i need to go in ~4 minutes and will be back later
06:56:28 <shachaf> er, by your code i mean your code after i've changed it a bit, so maybe it's different in the original
06:57:48 <oerjan> i get a strange error if i try to add @Refl to the last e pattern in supercast
06:59:09 <shachaf> you'd expect strange errors when matching on an impossible Refl
06:59:17 <shachaf> though maybe yours is stranger than expected
07:00:27 <shachaf> adding NOINLINE makes it work hth
07:00:34 <shachaf> but now i really need to go
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07:13:46 <HackEgo> JesseH: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:22:36 <oerjan> i see. it is never actually looking at the ID id value
07:26:23 <oerjan> gah making the f parameter non-explicit worked
07:27:09 <oerjan> now to find out if any of these munge applications (to prevent ghc inlining) are needed
07:32:43 <oerjan> i need to write id ecast instead of ecast to avoid the crash :D
07:33:06 <oerjan> that's the only place, other than removing some explicit arguments
07:33:26 <oerjan> i think it's a good guess that this might break under higher optimization levels
07:36:48 <oerjan> shachaf: http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/Exploit3.hs
07:36:56 <shachaf> oerjan: good timing, i just got home
07:37:16 <oerjan> i managed to make it work without a pragma, at least in GHCi.
07:37:48 <shachaf> this is getting more and more fragile hth
07:38:01 <elliott> oerjan: {-# NOINLINE munge #-} should make it safe?
07:38:16 <oerjan> elliott: um the whole point of using munge is to avoid NOINLINE
07:38:34 <oerjan> well maybe it cannot be disabled, in which case it's fine
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07:38:59 <shachaf> Is there a difference between data families and newtypes+type families?
07:39:05 <oerjan> can you use NOINLINE pragmas in lambdabot?
07:39:50 <elliott> you should be able to, yeah
07:39:51 <oerjan> but anyway the idea is to use as few extensions as possible
07:39:56 <elliott> you can just @let at the very least
07:39:59 <shachaf> oerjan: by the way shadowing is bad hth
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07:41:07 <oerjan> nothing to see here, move on
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07:41:56 <shachaf> oerjan: i was suspicious at first when i reloaded your url but then i saw that its contents were exactly equal to my editor buffer and decided i must be imagining things
07:42:16 <zzo38> How can I parse a MySQL dump to convert to SQLite format?
07:43:44 <shachaf> is there a reason for using munge instead of using id directly
07:44:21 <oerjan> well it was originally munge x = (replicate 9 undefined ++ repeat x) !! 10
07:44:45 <oerjan> because i wanted to be sure ghc couldn't see through it
07:45:08 <shachaf> i like that id works there but ($) doesn't
07:45:37 <oerjan> probably because of ghc's special $ parsing rule?
07:47:23 <oerjan> anyway we've proved that it's not sufficient to disable DeriveDataTypeable.
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07:48:31 <elliott> oerjan: munge x = reflect x reify
07:48:45 <elliott> actually GHC can probably see through that these days
07:48:49 <elliott> not with the terrifying original implementation though
07:48:54 <shachaf> I wouldn't be surprised if GHC can inline reflect x reify
07:49:02 <shachaf> If you make it recursive, though, GHC has no chance.
07:49:08 <shachaf> It doesn't inline reverse [] = []
07:49:56 <glguy> You can get it to inline the first iteration
07:51:21 <glguy> It will inline a recursive function up to the first recursive call with the right pragma
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07:52:02 <shachaf> In the bad old days we defined rev [] = []; rev [x] = [x]; rev xs = realReverse xs, or something like that.
07:52:14 <shachaf> To help the inliner along with that particular case.
07:52:49 <elliott> also does this trick work with GHC.Exts.coerce
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08:43:38 <Lilax> complicated to an extreme?
09:01:11 <oerjan> Lilax: that's ghc for you :P
09:02:16 <shachaf> oerjan: I think I found another related bug.
09:02:27 <shachaf> Though not one that you can use to unsafeCoerce.
09:04:30 <shachaf> λ> data T a where { A :: T Int; B :: T Bool }
09:04:30 <shachaf> λ> let f :: T Int -> (); f A = (); f B = ()
09:04:44 <shachaf> complains about the second pattern
09:04:49 <shachaf> λ> data T a where { A :: T (Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *)); B :: T (Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *)) }
09:04:52 <shachaf> λ> let f :: T (Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *)) -> (); f A = (); f B = ()
09:05:36 <shachaf> so i guess it checks that the types are the same without checking the kinds
09:07:17 <elliott> you say that to every piece of code that gets pasted in here
09:07:54 <Lilax> But that's cuz I'm not as advanced I still understand it kinda
09:08:25 <Lilax> but to me at my level it looks like someone was angry at their keyboard
09:08:44 <zzo38> Lilax: Are you sure??
09:08:48 <Lilax> ill be quiet now ;-;
09:08:54 <mroman> Lilax: You're learning Haskell?
09:09:11 <Lilax> veeeeeeerrrry slowly
09:09:22 <mroman> > (\x -> (\y -> x)) z y
09:09:29 <Lilax> and I don't have much time to code
09:10:10 <oerjan> mroman: that's because of the bug we found, it ruins its sandboxing
09:10:31 <mroman> oh. Is there a ghc trac issue for this?
09:11:09 <Lilax> why wasn't the bug detected before? and was the bugs occurance because of something being changed?
09:11:40 <zzo38> The code above looks like it is used to demonstrate the bug; it doesn't seem a very good code for an actual program but that doesn't make it "trash"
09:12:06 <oerjan> Lilax: it's an interaction with a subtle use of the new PolyKind feature which i guess no one has considered before.
09:12:24 <mroman> I don't understand those features good enough to see how exactly this breaks safehaskell :(
09:12:50 <oerjan> Lilax: the change was in making types and Typeable instances PolyKinded without realizing you then had to include the kinds in the data.
09:13:20 <oerjan> mroman: http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits
09:13:33 <Lilax> I never said it was well ( I did and I'm sorry if it came off wrong ) but as my veiw point as where I am standing in my area of expertise in the haskells, it looks like random lettering and chars zzo38
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09:13:55 <zzo38> Ah, well, then you must learn.
09:13:56 <oerjan> mroman: those are further refinements i made tonight, now it's down to a single extension
09:14:33 <Lilax> Well.. I don't have time since its finals this month
09:14:34 <shachaf> i,i {-# LANGUAGE NoSafe #-}
09:14:45 <mroman> what exactly should safehaskell prevent?
09:15:15 <shachaf> A function uc :: a -> b which is a valid implementation of id.
09:15:43 <vanila> safehaskell makes me sad
09:15:48 <Lilax> not a lot of fanciful script on that site of yours oerjan
09:15:49 <vanila> I feel like haskell has so much more potential
09:16:01 <oerjan> mroman: cast should be safe, always. it's a ghc bug that it isn't.
09:16:01 <vanila> am I just a totally out of touch purist or what
09:16:02 <shachaf> Oh, in this particular thing. Yes, different types should have different TypeReps.
09:16:06 <Lilax> haskell is a hassle
09:17:34 <oerjan> Lilax: most of my fanciful stuff is in the esoteric/ subdirectory, and most of it you need to go via the wiki to find
09:17:46 <zzo38> If I make up a Magic: the Gathering card that says "you gain 6 life and target opponent draws 3 cards" then how much should be the cost?
09:17:48 <Lilax> Ive been trying to pursuade my IT teacher to install linux into the deepfreeze program in the computers so I can code more
09:17:51 <shachaf> oerjan: So it looks like "GHC checks type 'equality' without checking kinds" is a problem in more than just Typeable.
09:18:07 <shachaf> Can you think of anywhere else where it could allow unsafeCoerce?
09:18:25 <Lilax> zzo38: a rediculous ammount
09:18:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Why would you ever play that card?
09:18:38 <oerjan> shachaf: um what you found was just exhaustiveness checking, no?
09:18:56 <zzo38> shachaf: To improve your life total
09:19:41 <shachaf> oerjan: well, it doesn't complain even though you're matching on an impossible pattern
09:19:48 <Lilax> I assume your life total goes up and the opponant draws three so maybe you can withstand the attacks that are already being placed?
09:20:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it's pretty well known that part of ghc isn't "perfect"?
09:20:19 <oerjan> and not unsafe just because of that
09:20:24 <Lilax> I can't brain I has the dumb
09:20:57 <zzo38> Although maybe it should be 7 life
09:21:16 <Lilax> my response of summerization
09:21:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Giving your opponent three cards seems like a huge cost regardless.
09:21:40 <shachaf> Maybe your goal is to make them lose by drawing the last few cards of their library.
09:21:56 <elliott> did anyone try GHC.Exts.coerce yet
09:21:58 <Lilax> they can only draw land?
09:22:03 <zzo38> Yes, if you use it enough they will not have enough cards left
09:22:04 <elliott> with the built-in Coercible stuff
09:22:20 <shachaf> Bargain costs 2W and has a similar effect (+7 life, one card)
09:23:53 <shachaf> zzo38: I guess this is meant for Limited?
09:24:31 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't know of any other case where GHC will let you match on something that brings an invalid type equality into scope.
09:26:58 <zzo38> Or, you should be also allowed to remove any counters from yourself too
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09:51:27 <int-e> vanila: awake now :P
09:52:47 <vanila> it was interesting how much better your unsafePerformIO is than mine and runST
09:53:18 <elliott> int-e: hi, I had to kill lambdabot
09:53:30 <elliott> because you can unsafeCoerce with just TypeFamilies and Typeable
09:54:52 <int-e> elliott: thanks. so the quit-twice mechanic finally found some use...
09:55:56 <elliott> int-e: I was worried it'd respond to the @quit too slowly the second time to trigger that
09:56:04 <elliott> since it was busy joining channels
09:56:20 <int-e> vanila: http://lpaste.net/74498
09:56:20 <elliott> int-e: it might be safe as long as you stop Data.Typeable from being accessed
09:56:28 <elliott> all the exploits so far use Data.Typeable.cast
09:56:37 <elliott> I feel like GHC.Exts.coerce might do it too though
09:58:36 <int-e> elliott: hmm, but how many modules like Data.Typeable.Lens are out there? (this one reexports cast, and another function based on it.)
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09:58:58 <vanila> hthats the code im talking about
09:59:22 <vanila> performIO m = b (a m ()) where
09:59:23 <vanila> a :: IO a -> rw -> (# rw, a #)
09:59:32 <elliott> int-e: and you can probably get it from tons of things that are based on top of cast too
09:59:33 <vanila> always segfaults afterwards though
09:59:58 <elliott> int-e: tbh if there's nothing else sensitive on the VPS I might just take a backup and let it run, since I don't think the bug has been publicised anywhere but trac and here
10:00:08 <elliott> that's fuss for you of course though
10:00:24 <elliott> I dunno if people have checked if it works in HEAD
10:00:27 <elliott> I guess probably since the bug is open
10:04:32 <int-e> elliott: I've checked the #10000 version on ghc head. it's essentially the same thing...
10:05:33 <int-e> I'm a bit dismayed that this works without PolyKinds and DataKinds, has oerjan given details?
10:05:52 <elliott> http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/Exploit3.hs
10:06:23 <elliott> OldTypeable is probably fine :P
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10:06:46 <int-e> right, another level of indirection... thanks
10:07:44 <elliott> int-e: afaict there is no reason you can't just make mueval run inside a chroot
10:07:48 <int-e> and a good demonstration that including the full kind will be the only thing that's going to work.
10:07:55 <elliott> and then none of this would matter
10:08:07 <elliott> heck, use Gregor's UMLBox like HackEgo, maybe :p
10:08:09 <elliott> that's a bit slower though
10:08:12 <vanila> wouldnt it just be less dangerous
10:08:25 <elliott> vanila: well you wouldn't be able to do any useful IO without a linux kernel bug
10:08:31 <elliott> as a short-term solution...
10:08:52 <int-e> escaping chroots is an easy exercise ... but ... people would have to write shell code, transplant it into L.hs somehow, it adds up.
10:08:58 <vanila> couldn't you still screw upt he chroot forcing lambdabot to reboot?
10:09:04 <vanila> how do you escape chroot?
10:09:23 <int-e> (easy if you have a local root exploit to work from, which a determined attacker will have)
10:09:47 <elliott> vanila: as a non-root user, you're not meant to be able to
10:09:56 <int-e> chroot would definitely raise the bar
10:10:06 <elliott> chroots aren't perfect namespaces though, there are other leaks, but
10:10:32 <elliott> int-e: also, the user lambdabot runs as doesn't have to have access to the password file, or write access to anything but L.hs and other state
10:10:52 <elliott> I guess if you source the password as an rc it does
10:11:19 <int-e> I could change it ;-)
10:11:25 <int-e> (but I see no reason to)
10:18:20 <int-e> Okay... I can do read-only binds on the VPS. so a chroot is within reach.
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10:46:49 <elliott> int-e: note that e.g. getting lambdabot to quit would require being able to kill it
10:46:53 <elliott> since mueval runs as a separate process, at least
10:58:18 <int-e> elliott: btw your @quit was accepted in 170 seconds and the threashold is 300. So that seems to be okay.
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10:59:23 <int-e> I'm bringing lambdabot back with mueval running in an ad-hoch chroot (which can still read more than strictly necessary, but has no write access anywhere important)
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11:11:42 <int-e> elliott: this looks so silly: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mounts.txt
11:12:06 <elliott> am I allowed to unsafePerformIO-steal the password that I already have
11:12:38 <elliott> you could bind mount /dev/null over that file
11:12:39 <int-e> the password is not visible, that's in ~lambda/run
11:13:01 <elliott> int-e: is anything stopping you from making a {-# LANGUAGE Trustworthy #-} L.hs
11:13:11 <elliott> and also I guess L.hs isn't trusted
11:13:12 <int-e> they're read-only bind mounts
11:15:02 <int-e> (and the UID would be wrong for write access, too)
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11:19:59 <int-e> elliott: can you say if I did anything absurdly stupid in http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/chroot.c ?
11:20:15 <elliott> int-e: I'm no export but you know chroot(1) exists, right?
11:20:25 <elliott> well, I guess you'd need sudo too
11:20:35 <elliott> it looks reasonable though
11:20:44 <int-e> elliott: I needed something to make setuid root anyway.
11:20:49 <elliott> int-e: you could use unshare(2) to make a namespace
11:21:14 <elliott> that's perfect because all it can do is read and write
11:21:25 <elliott> could even skip the chroot at that point
11:21:40 <elliott> those working from @run is a bug anyway :p
11:23:45 <elliott> of course seccomp stops you exec()ing, so hm
11:23:49 <int-e> seccomp won't work for me; I can't touch the kernel.
11:23:59 <elliott> isn't it enabled by default
11:24:30 <int-e> who runs chrome on a vps?
11:24:42 <elliott> it's been in the kernel since 2005
11:24:48 <int-e> but ok, how do I figure out whether it's supported...
11:24:54 <elliott> it's used by multiple major applications for security by now
11:25:15 <elliott> int-e: grep the kconfig in /proc or wherever it is?
11:25:23 <elliott> I forget the exact filename
11:25:44 <int-e> oh openssh has support for it, that may motivate an vps provider to enable it
11:26:30 <elliott> note that exec is *not* one of the syscalls you can do post-seccomp, without seccomp-bpf, so I guess you might have to patch mueval. but it would certainly be a long-term solution, since it's pretty airtight
11:26:30 <int-e> /proc/config.gz, but that feature is disabled
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11:27:13 <int-e> *patch* mueval? that horror needs to be rewritten ... oh time ... oh motivation!
11:32:01 <elliott> I just meant patch it to do one syscall :)
11:32:06 <elliott> you could also use seccomp-bpf and allow exec though
11:32:22 <elliott> though I don't know if that is safe.
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11:34:12 <int-e> I think I'm satisfied with the relative safety for now.
11:34:25 <int-e> but thanks for the ideas
11:35:01 <elliott> "So, a method of finding and patching the system calls at runtime was devised. It uses a disassembler on the executable code, finds each system call and turns it into an RPC to the trusted thread." chrome used to do terrifying things
11:35:49 <int-e> . o O ( sounds like light-weight valgrind or qemu )
11:37:57 <fizzie> import qualified Elliott as E
11:38:23 <fizzie> I'm just now reading that export/expert thing.
11:38:33 <elliott> because I'm not qualified to answer.
11:39:52 <int-e> elliott: really the main reason I wrote that little C program is that scripts cannot be setuid, and I was too lazy to look for an existing wheel.
11:56:35 * int-e idly wonders how the VPS boots with an empty fstab...
11:58:09 <elliott> systemd can do partition autodiscovery stuff nowadays but it's probably not that
11:59:08 <int-e> I think there's no hypervisor, just a container. so all the mounts can be prepared from outside.
11:59:45 <int-e> (and right, systemd is also magical)
12:00:10 <int-e> (so perhaps a mounted root partition is enough to get things running)
12:00:30 <elliott> oh, it's not a real VPS, just a docker thing? okay
12:00:41 <elliott> that surprises me. that's a relatively new thing
12:00:54 <int-e> http://openvz.org/Main_Page
12:00:55 <elliott> I'm not sure I trust containers that much yet...
12:01:07 <elliott> okay, OpenVZ is old but it's really bad I think
12:01:11 <elliott> at least, tons of stuff doesn't seem to work on it
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12:03:40 <int-e> I think it's good enough to lambdabot anyway. :P
12:05:08 <int-e> (but yes, the container is leaky. pstree was behaving odd for a while, for example. and the brutal filtering of dmesg is a bit annoying (I tend to look there for clues when things go wrong))
12:07:17 <elliott> I think it also doesn't support a bunch of "standard" things like tun/tap and stuff
12:07:17 <int-e> The main criterion for running lambdabot is that the provider does not noticably overcommit the RAM. And that seems to work okay.
12:07:22 <elliott> and does weird things with memory accounting
12:07:32 <elliott> er, OpenVZ is specifically used because you can overcommit a ton :)
12:08:05 <elliott> but if they use OpenVZ, it's quite likely to cut costs by letting them oversell RAM.
12:08:32 <int-e> And I'm sure they do overcommit, because few people actually use all their RAM all the time.
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12:09:40 <int-e> anyway. it works, mostly, and at less than $5 a month I honestly don't expect much more.
12:10:20 <elliott> you can get like $10/year if you're willing to put up with total crap :)
12:10:46 <elliott> or $35/forever if you want a completely useless and constantly failing box like esolangs.org and HackEgo run on -_-
12:10:50 <int-e> yeah but lambdabot needs 200-300 MB when it runs mueval. total crap won't work.
12:11:37 <int-e> (actually ghc's memory usage is quite crazy.)
12:12:15 <elliott> I'm tempted to work on that @run-without-reloading-GHC-constantly replacement, except that I don't actually care any more
12:13:20 <int-e> I can't be bothered; I expect such a server would leak memory, and at that point I begin prefer the current solution, as bad as it is.
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12:13:58 <int-e> (some "to" missing there)\
12:14:30 <elliott> "Roilan, from TragicServers, is back with these improved offers exclusively available on LowEndBox." bargain basement VPS providers have worrying names
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12:28:59 <fizzie> The $35/forever was for two gigabytes of RAM.
12:31:38 <int-e> elliott: I don't have long running ghci sessions. I know that ghc --make leaks heavily.
12:34:17 <int-e> why does $35/forever sound like a pyramid scheme to me?
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12:45:16 <Jafet> Could be a good band name
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12:49:19 <fizzie> int-e: "How can you do this for this price?" "We've already built and own the infrastructure, we don't have the same cost model as our competitors. Our space, power and internet costs are far lower, and we pass the savings on to you."
12:50:08 <fizzie> And sorry, it was $35/forever (or $1/month) for just a half gig, the 2 GB version is $140/forever or $20/month.
12:51:54 <int-e> well, where do they get the free electricity?
12:52:19 <int-e> oh well, cost models
12:52:28 <fizzie> Yes, it's all about cost models.
12:52:30 <int-e> the cost model may include a planned bankruptcy
12:52:58 <int-e> (and that brings me straight back to the pyramid scheme association)
12:53:09 <fizzie> Very possibly. Or I guess it's just barely possible they've figured enough people are paying the per-month prices to cover operating costs, at least if they cut corners enough.
12:53:49 <int-e> wait, $20/month for the 2GB version?
12:54:17 <fizzie> Yes. It's $1/month for 512 MB, $10/month for 1 GB, $20/month for 2 GB.
12:54:29 <int-e> that's ... interesting.
12:54:55 <elliott> to be fair it's an already-established provider that I think has a lot of money to throw around running this
12:54:58 <Jafet> Consider the people who put up their phpbb board and get two hits per month from googlebot, never using $140 of resources for a whole lifetime
12:55:00 <elliott> but not very sustainable yes
12:55:20 <int-e> (though I guess they figured that anybody not picking the 512 MB option will actually require a decent amount of memory. unlike all those webservers that run one apache instance)
12:55:33 <elliott> http://www.fibernetics.ca/ the company
12:55:49 <fizzie> It's also $40/month for 4 GB, $60/month for 6 GB and $80/month for 8 GB. So it's strictly linear in terms of RAM, except for the $1/month that's presumably there for shock value.
12:56:18 <elliott> tbh, it's probably worth more at $1/month than $35/forever
12:56:26 <elliott> since you'll probably get sick of how often it goes down before 35 months pass
12:56:26 <int-e> so you can oversell the 512MB plan much more than the larger ones.
12:57:32 <int-e> I'm just curious what kind of probably-legal-but-ethically-speaking fraud they're pulling off there.
12:58:38 <elliott> I think they have a lot of money to burn and figure that most people will buy a $35/forever one just because "how can you not at that price?", and then rarely use it because it's low-end and goes down a lot and comes with ~no support and sucks.
12:58:42 <fizzie> Is there a reasonable way of figuring out when a Debian system was initially installed? E.g. some file timestamps?
12:58:59 <elliott> fizzie: I think debian-installer leaves a log somewhere
12:59:23 <fizzie> There's /var/log/apt but all files there are weekly cycled, at least on this box.
12:59:25 <elliott> anyway, their $10/mo and up plans look actually sustainable
12:59:36 <fizzie> Hm, there's an "installer".
12:59:50 <elliott> since they're broadly comparable to DigitalOcean prices and so on
13:00:01 <fizzie> Every file in /var/log/installer/ is timestamped Oct 5, 2013, which sounds reasonable.
13:00:38 <fizzie> So it's been... maybe 15 months now.
13:01:03 <elliott> so they're subsidising the super cheap one with existing cash + more expensive monthly plans + below-average operating costs (so more profit from the more expensive ones than other providers) + not bothering with decent support etc. + most people who buy super-cheap dodgy-looking lifetime VPSes won't bother using them enough for the sale to be a loss
13:01:19 <elliott> also, they obviously got a lot of publicity for this
13:01:34 <fizzie> Which means (assuming current prices match the original) it was a good investment (FSVO), since for the 2GB level, 15 months at $20/month is $300, but the one-time fee is $140.
13:01:39 <elliott> so I dunno, I could see them running for years if they got lucky
13:02:48 <elliott> int-e: also consider that anyone who really uses the resources will probably need to upgrade eventually, either to one of their more expensive models (= more $$$ for them), or to another provider (thus meaning it's just a dormant VM they're paying for again)
13:03:04 <int-e> oh and maybe they're hoping that people who actually need more resources will outgrow their plan... as you just wrote
13:03:27 <elliott> I like how they have a 50% off sale right now.
13:03:31 <elliott> is that on the lifetime prices too, I wonder?
13:03:56 <int-e> oh, crappy vm that I never use for $17.50? that sounds reasonable
13:04:12 <elliott> I would buy it for that price :)
13:04:34 <elliott> int-e: oh and also they can always stop offering these lifetime VPSes at any time
13:05:02 <elliott> so honestly I feel like it could be pretty smart on the whole
13:05:13 <elliott> still risky, but I'm not convinced they'll go bust super quickly
13:07:03 <int-e> "Current total: $17.50"
13:07:19 <elliott> <li onClick="javascript:location.href='http://www.cloudatcost.com/aboutus.php';"><a href="#">about us</a></li>
13:08:18 <elliott> int-e: nice, run lambdabot on that and if anyone trashes it they'll be doing you a favour
13:11:35 <int-e> okay, let's read the terms and conditions
13:12:05 <int-e> "Master Services Agreement" is a great name.
13:13:06 <fizzie> The one-off prices are also "LIMITED TIME", at least according to the "step 1" ordering page.
13:13:11 <fizzie> But they've been like that for quite a while now.
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13:13:27 <int-e> wait, can you translate this into english? "It is the Customer's responsibility to provide, prepare and maintain the Customer's locations, facilities and equipment for the installation of CloudatCost Facilities and for CloudatCost to provide the Services to the Customer. Such provision, preparation and maintenance shall comply with CloudatCost' specifications and shall be at the Customer's expense."
13:14:02 <fizzie> int-e: They'll come into your home and install some equipment and bill you for it.
13:14:33 <fizzie> int-e: Basically, turn your house into one of their datacenters, at your expense.
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13:16:05 <elliott> int-e: you have to keep your house tidy or they won't give you a server
13:16:19 <int-e> I guess they didn't spend any money on lawyers either.
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13:22:03 <fizzie> Or maybe they did, and that's just one of the traps they set.
13:23:11 <fizzie> It does sound like a clause from a totally different agreement.
13:24:27 <Jafet> "LIMITED TIME" sounds about right
13:25:44 <int-e> "The Customer shall be liable to CloudatCost for all damages caused to real or tangible personal property, or for bodily injury or death caused by the Customer or an End User."
13:25:58 <int-e> Sounds like they've had experience with disgruntled customers.
13:29:35 <int-e> "19.10This Agreement has been drawn up in the English language at the express request of the parties." -- aha.
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13:33:31 <int-e> the privacy policy is a copy of http://www.worldline.ca/privacy-policy ... they didn't even bother to change the link.
13:36:25 <int-e> and that also seems to be the original source for the remaining terms. now worldline is a telco, so all those references to equipment on the customer's location make sense.
13:37:01 <int-e> ...isn't that fun...
13:41:19 <int-e> They're connected though. "[...] Less than a year later, Cloud at Cost – a hosting service with a $35 one-time fee and no monthly bill – has raked in $1 million without any marketing, and injected fresh energy into Fibernetics, a Waterloo Region-based telecom provider founded 11 years ago."
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13:45:15 <elliott> int-e: I see, Worldline is owned by the same company.
13:45:40 <elliott> hmm, I wonder about the breakdown of that $1M
13:48:57 <int-e> "$35 is an easy purchase to get something that you can categorize as a toy, and get on it and play around."
13:49:37 <int-e> (One of the founders compares the $35 lifetime plan to the Raspberry Pi)
13:51:06 <int-e> I'm reading http://news.communitech.ca/columns/cloud-at-cost-injects-fibernetics-with-startup-energy/ there are some other interesting points.
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14:24:35 <GeekDude> a*a + b*b < 4 gives me, http://i.imgur.com/bJ6tJpr.png and a+b<2 gives me http://i.imgur.com/ZwNH2xO.png, but shouldn't they be the same according to the Pythagorean theorem
14:25:17 <int-e> sqrt(a^2 + b^2) does not equal a+b.
14:25:25 <GeekDude> Sorry if I said something completely inaccurate
14:25:47 <Jafet> Shopping is math, let's go hard
14:26:30 <elliott> we don't need to make fun of people for remembering a theorem wrong
14:26:36 <int-e> that said the second picture looks more interesting.
14:27:05 <int-e> elliott: of course not.
14:27:07 <elliott> it looks like a mandelbrot spider in itsweb
14:27:12 <GeekDude> elliott: I remember the theorem fine, I just can't think
14:27:40 <GeekDude> Also, my code for that is here http://ahk.us.to/?p=38307e
14:27:54 <elliott> autohotkey golf is less fine though
14:28:33 <GeekDude> I'm thinking I might be able to remove the space between w%w% and h%h%
14:28:35 <boily> I once wrote "(x + y)^2 = x^2 + y^2" in a physics exam. it was far from my proudest moments...
14:28:56 <GeekDude> boily: Well, if that were true it'd make my code much more fun
14:29:24 <boily> GeekDude: sometimes, it can be!
14:29:40 <GeekDude> Even a broken clock is right sometimes
14:29:49 <int-e> boily: ah just work with some field of characteristic 2. but I guess that doesn't happen so often in physics.
14:30:19 <int-e> GeekDude: twice a day, the saying goes.
14:30:28 <GeekDude> Well, what if it's a 24 hour clock?
14:30:30 <boily> elliott: wasn't there some other equation called that? something that has an integral somewhere...
14:30:51 <boily> int-e: damned reality...
14:31:33 <boily> GeekDude: http://www.watchtime.com/watches/images_db/big/109_glycine_3856.jpg :D
14:31:54 <boily> (I want one, but it's prohibititatively expensive.)
14:35:15 <int-e> what am I looking at?
14:36:07 <int-e> 24 hours, and I guess one of those rings can be turned..
14:36:17 <int-e> but I don't see the attraction.
14:38:08 <boily> there are all those variations: http://www.glycine-watch.ch/e/collection/collection_overview.e.jsp?ID_Group=100000
14:39:11 <boily> it's an elegant watch. not a big impossible monster that covers your whole arm. none of those extraneous thingies. just the right amount of information density.
14:39:16 <boily> and it has 24 hours!
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14:42:58 <int-e> honestly I think the 24 hour thing would only serve to confuse me :)
14:43:18 <int-e> (though I guess one would get used to it after a while)
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15:18:25 <int-e> aha, another great potential savings: the VPS defaults to "save mode" - it shuts down itself after 7 days.
15:26:31 <int-e> (the typo is mine)
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15:42:32 <int-e> An IP change when re-imaging. Interesting...
15:45:35 <elliott> did you buy one of them just to investigate
15:45:57 <elliott> you're supporting their business model :)
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15:50:55 <int-e> elliott: sure did.
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16:30:13 <int-e> elliott: I think of it as a Telco-who-sells-toys-as-a-side-business, which is a charming idea ;-)
16:31:28 <elliott> yeah. unfortunately we rely on one of those toys for our wiki :p
16:39:09 <vanila> i thought i could get some good lambda terms tto test my program on from BLC
16:39:14 <vanila> but then I realized they are lazy....
16:39:25 <vanila> do yonkow where i can get some free strict lambda terms
16:39:44 <int-e> where's the fun in that
16:40:01 <vanila> itsn ot so much fun , but helps me test my compiler works
16:41:49 <vanila> i could use futamura to port cod efrom otherl languages but its a lot of work......
16:42:40 <elliott> I can write strict lambda terms for $100/hour <_<
16:44:08 <int-e> vanila: why don't you take a couple of church numerals, say evaluate (\f x.f (f (f (f x)))) (\f x. f (f (f (f x))))
16:44:30 <vanila> oh ys il definitely do a few of those
16:44:55 <int-e> those are essentially folds and can be evaluated strictly. most of the really interesting code involved fixed points and those are icky in strict lambda calculus.
16:45:17 <vanila> yeah, the lazyness lets the code be shorter
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16:49:01 <int-e> (and some neat blc programs have infinite output)
16:49:20 <elliott> there is probably an easy lazy->strict conversion?
16:50:13 <vanila> i think CBN CPS would work
16:50:25 <vanila> but i dont wnat to introduce more stuff that might have bugs in it
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17:26:58 <int-e> wtf, why do I have rpcbind running on that VPS now?
17:27:41 <int-e> some nfs support apparently.
17:28:16 <APic> Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson!
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17:28:27 <int-e> who wants this sh... stuff?
17:28:58 <glguy> The lambdabot vps?
17:29:18 <int-e> no, the brand new cheap one
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17:29:29 <elliott> for sale: baby vps, never worn
17:29:51 <glguy> Pristine file system
17:30:38 <int-e> the lambdabot vps only listens to port 22 from outside (and so, now, does the cheap one)
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17:41:04 <int-e> helpful. "Jan 17 12:38:54 cheap mpt-statusd: detected non-optimal RAID status" ["cheap" is the hostname]
17:41:47 <olsner> "non-optimal", nice euphemism
17:42:13 <int-e> what it means, apparently, is "open /dev/mptctl: No such file or directory"
17:42:38 <elliott> I doubt there's much optimal about any of it
17:42:56 <int-e> I'm not sure what this is doing at all on a VPS.
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17:47:53 <int-e> and look at all these kernel modules ... sound... I guess that's important!
17:48:10 <elliott> maybe you can make noise in their data centre with it
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17:48:50 <Taneb> It is amazing how many songs it is possible to sing to the tune of House of the Rising Sun
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17:52:41 <olsner> int-e: I think drm here means drm rather than drm
17:52:56 <int-e> direct rendering mode, of course
17:53:01 <int-e> important in a headless server
17:53:40 <olsner> is it running a display manager too, for that all-important graphical login?
17:54:18 <JesseH> Taneb, Just played house of the rising sun instrumental along with a tupac acapella and it worked sort of
17:54:24 <int-e> no, just dome gettys. (I actually have some vnc-like interface where I get to see the text console, even during boot.
17:54:33 <int-e> (they're using some vmware thingy)
17:54:42 <Taneb> JesseH, Drop It Like It's Hot works, and 99 Red Balloons aaalmost does
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17:55:32 <JesseH> Taneb, Try playing it along with a science lecture
17:55:45 <JesseH> I might write a lang that does just this
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18:26:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41693&oldid=41688 * DDR * (+679) Added pedigree, tags.
18:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41694&oldid=41693 * DDR * (+6) Found out where an uncommented line of text went. Commented it out.
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18:37:01 <b_jonas> JesseH: no, it was unrelated
18:37:13 <JesseH> Poo, was hoping you were interested
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18:50:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41695&oldid=41694 * DDR * (+1642) Annotated counting to 10.
18:53:31 <JesseH> Wait, the bot shows wiki updates?
18:53:46 <JesseH> This would have been useful (one sec)
18:56:42 <fizzie> It didn't do that a year ago.
18:56:49 <fizzie> It's a relatively new feature.
18:57:05 <int-e> it was probably added because somebody thought it'd be useful
18:57:23 <fizzie> int-e: I think it was added because MediaWiki supported it.
18:57:43 <fizzie> You know, the kind of climbing-Everest style justification of "because it was there".
18:58:03 <int-e> that's also a possibility
18:58:10 <int-e> it could be a combination of both!
18:58:36 <fizzie> One further contributing factor was that the wiki moved to be on the same system as the bot.
18:58:44 <fizzie> Even though that's not strictly speaking a requirement for it.
18:58:56 <fizzie> (The updates are sent over UDP.)
18:59:09 <int-e> oh wait, you'd have insider knowledge about that
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20:44:56 <shachaf> int-e: So what's the situation with lambdabot?
20:48:00 <int-e> mueval is chrooted
20:48:09 <int-e> I'm not so worried about lambdabot itself
20:48:46 <shachaf> And there are enough extensions for the bug?
20:48:56 <shachaf> If so you should turn DataKinds back on at one point.
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21:12:56 <Taneb> I have had quite an enjoyable chinese talkaway
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21:43:37 <JesseH> Is it written in an esolang?
21:44:06 * JesseH looking for general purpose esolang
21:45:19 <JesseH> Wonder if any good ones are available.
21:45:36 <JesseH> (good being pretty vague)
21:46:55 <JesseH> Preferably one with batteries included, so to speak.
21:47:33 <int-e> maybe look at the golfscript family? I dunno.
21:49:01 <int-e> your requirements may be self-contradictory; included batteries usually indicate some sort of success, and that means the language fails to be esoteric.
21:50:04 <JesseH> I think a language can be esoteric and still be able to do things.
21:50:09 <b_jonas> JesseH: if you just want an esoteric _core_ but with a non-esoteric easy to use interface over it, just go with x86_64 and C++.
21:50:38 <b_jonas> if you want something exotic, try some scheme or smalltalk thingy maybe? or, I dunno
21:50:42 <JesseH> Easy to use? I don't remember typing that.
21:51:21 <JesseH> But hey, I expected these answers :)
21:51:28 <b_jonas> I'm just not sure what youw ant then
21:52:14 <b_jonas> do you just want an esolang that lets you call into existing libraries, including ones written in non-eso langs?
21:52:25 <b_jonas> (like haskell or something)
21:53:07 <JesseH> Perhaps, or ones just written in that language, but yeah some higher level things just in an esoteric way
21:54:35 <int-e> shachaf: as you've probably seen, oerjan figured out that just TypeFamilies + DeriveDataTypeable and StandaloneDeriving or AutoDeriveTypeable + RankNTypes (to get rid of typeable constraints) suffices for exploiting that bug. I have not yet managed to do it without type families, though it looks like it should be possible to exploit fundeps instead.
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21:55:43 <JesseH> Maybe I am being self contradictory
21:56:03 <JesseH> Testing the boundaries
21:58:46 <JesseH> I think the asm suggestion was valid
21:59:07 <JesseH> I need a stricter definition of esoteric.
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22:00:50 <MDude> What would you consider "batteries"?
22:01:03 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:02:04 <MDude> If you just want graphics and sound interface for an esolang, there's IBNIZ and ByteByteJump.
22:04:04 <MDude> Oh wait, BytePusher is the version with graphics.
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22:04:57 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, I was part of that outfiguring.
22:05:07 <shachaf> int-e: You don't even need DeriveDataTypeable, do you?
22:05:31 <shachaf> oerjan's latest thing just turned on TypeFamilies.
22:06:00 <shachaf> int-e: By the way, if you switch from TypeFamilies to some other extensions providing similar power, you won't get KindSignatures turning on automatically.
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22:07:42 <int-e> shachaf: right, he did.
22:08:06 <shachaf> It might be possible to have GHC infer the kinds, though.
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22:16:50 <JesseH> MDude, sockets, split, and other things
22:17:25 <JesseH> could just add those things to my own lang
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22:46:03 <Lilax> is lambdabot fixed
22:46:53 * APic ordered Pizza Frutti de Mare with Pineapple and Anchovies.
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22:52:16 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
22:52:16 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_111’
22:52:16 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> t), GHC.Num.Num a)
22:52:51 <Lilax> > 1^2(7+7)\frac{dy}{dx}(7*8b^2)
22:52:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘\’
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23:01:23 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘<’
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23:25:09 <zzo38> Do you have any .XI instruments? I want to make AmigaMML in #EXTENDED mode to accept .XI instruments (in addition to what it already accepts).
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23:37:26 <zzo38> Do you know these things?
23:37:57 <nys> i'm trying to remember whether kiarchive or waveworld had any .XI files
23:38:26 <nys> milkytracker can readily fabricate them if you need them
23:40:59 <oerjan> Lilax: i think you want @help . > (which needs a space after) is only for evaluating haskell expressions.
23:41:25 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:42:14 <oerjan> int-e: hey a suggestion: @help should show the prefixes, and > help could be defined to do the same thing
23:44:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e it might help newbies if @help showed lambdabot's prefixes, and help could be defined so > help does the same thing
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23:55:24 <nys> zzo38, kiarchive has .XI instruments: http://modarchive.org/?faq-torrents-current
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23:58:01 <zzo38> But do they have just some ZIP archives with a few files? I don't need all of them.
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01:27:26 <lambdabot> Got the code? Got the info? Then we've got the help for you!
01:29:37 * int-e has decided that MPTC + fundep is probably not enough to exploit the Typeable hole. The problem is that while fundeps express injectivity, the compiler still refuses to deduce b ~ b' from (Foo a b, Foo a b') with class Foo a b | a -> b.
01:31:41 <shachaf> int-e: Ah, I've run into that before.
01:32:42 <shachaf> And I guess Leibniz equality certainly isn't enough for this.
01:34:48 <shachaf> I wonder whether GHC should do the optimization where it doesn't check the tag for a GADT where only a single summand is possible.
01:35:04 <int-e> oerjan: your exploit code becomes more readable if one abbreviates the proxies: type A = Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *); type B = Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *)
01:35:21 <shachaf> Yes, I've been doing that.
01:35:39 <shachaf> Well, I called them PT and P'T before, but I also switched to PX and PY for the non-DataKinds version.
01:36:22 <int-e> and rather than 'munge' I added {-# NOINLINE ecast #-}
01:36:56 <shachaf> Yes, that was discussed above.
01:37:12 <shachaf> oerjan was trying to avoid pragmas for some reason.
01:37:31 <shachaf> Do you think it's possible without kind signatures?
01:38:00 <shachaf> Not that it matters if only TypeFamilies lets you do it.
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02:09:56 <oerjan> <int-e> oh but why... <-- i was just trying to avoid any extra things that might be easily disabled.
02:10:31 <oerjan> and pragmas seem like something you might sometimes want to disable for safety
02:10:58 <AndoDaan> I've finally managed to implement BCT in MNNBFSL, I think.
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02:47:35 <lambdabot> (Contravariant f, Functor f) => f a -> f b
02:48:27 <oerjan> > GHC.Exts.coerce 'a' :: Identity Char
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03:33:55 <oerjan> <Taneb> It is amazing how many songs it is possible to sing to the tune of House of the Rising Sun <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_metre
03:36:01 <oerjan> ...that word doesn't mean what i thought it meant. :(
03:36:50 <shachaf> what did you think it meant twh
03:36:53 <Lilax> What does it mean?
03:37:03 <oerjan> amazing grace has to be the most vanilla melody _ever_, it's common metre _and_ pentatonal
03:38:07 <oerjan> oh wait it _does_ mean that
03:38:26 <oerjan> the google extracts were misleading
03:38:52 <shachaf> poignant means appropriate?
03:39:13 <oerjan> 3rd meaning on wiktionary
03:39:24 <oerjan> close enough to fit how i used it, anyway
03:39:51 <Lilax> so its emotionally Appropriate?
03:40:18 <oerjan> Lilax: i'm not sure those two meanings fit together like that
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03:40:49 <Lilax> Its better than emotionally inappropriate.
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05:03:25 <zzo38> I want to optimize .XM file by making it automatically decide how to put patterns
05:04:07 <vanila> is there a quick overview of xm format?
05:04:16 <vanila> so i can think about compressing them
05:04:37 <zzo38> You can find a document on my gopher server, as well as in other places
05:04:53 <vanila> can patterns contain patters
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05:05:48 <zzo38> A pattern is a list of rows (note events), and the song consists of the list of patterns to play; it is possible to repeat a pattern
05:08:09 <zzo38> I intend first it can unroll all loops, dumping it into memory without patterns and just rows, and figuring out the global loop point, and then performing optimization to compress the tables.
05:11:41 <vanila> maybe it could be possible to look for lots of repititions of a small length, then increase its size and see how many repitions drop off
05:11:54 <vanila> that way you can make a trade-off, choosing a good length of pattern to match
05:14:05 <zzo38> The number of patterns, number of rows in each pattern, and number of items in the pattern order table, are all limited to 256.
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05:26:42 <zzo38> I can know how to unroll all loops and that stuff, but then the rest I don't know much about it
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05:53:23 <Lilax> I have no idea what I'm doing
05:54:09 <Lilax> wrong ones I think
05:54:12 <oerjan> e and x are of the Expr type, not ordinary numbers
05:54:34 <oerjan> and i think ^ treats x as if it were infinite
05:54:53 <Lilax> its supposed to square it
05:55:43 <oerjan> and no matter how many times you divide it by 2, it never compares equal to 0
05:55:57 <oerjan> so the recursion never stops
05:56:10 <lambdabot> [x,x `div` 2,x `div` 2 `div` 2,x `div` 2 `div` 2 `div` 2,x `div` 2 `div` 2 `...
05:56:21 <oerjan> > map (==0) $ iterate (`div` 2) x
05:56:23 <lambdabot> [False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,Fal...
05:57:23 <oerjan> the Expr values are mainly for showing expressions in symbolic form, they support little else
05:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41696&oldid=41521 * AndoDaan * (+1665) BCT interpreter in MNNBFSL
05:57:49 <lambdabot> [x,2 `div` x,2 `div` (2 `div` x),2 `div` (2 `div` (2 `div` x)),2 `div` (2 `d...
05:58:03 <Lilax> 4b+e^2)\frac{dx}{dy}(6*7)+8=0
05:58:20 <Lilax> is what I'm trying to fix
05:58:45 <oerjan> except i think something is missing there
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05:59:40 <Lilax> probably I was day dreaming a bit in class
06:00:15 <oerjan> i mean, you're missing something at the beginning at least
06:00:43 <Lilax> > iterate (3 `div`) e
06:00:44 <lambdabot> [e,3 `div` e,3 `div` (3 `div` e),3 `div` (3 `div` (3 `div` e)),3 `div` (3 `d...
06:01:02 <Lilax> yes probably let me get my notes
06:04:47 <Lilax> back ok so its a differntial equation
06:05:09 <Lilax> y(2x4+y)\frac{dy}{dx}=(1−4xy2)x2 and the last one was an older one from memory I think
06:06:44 <Lilax> http://quicklatex.com/cache3/ql_35ea3396669a170a74f119670e137b23_l3.png
06:07:26 <oerjan> i have a hunch you're missing superscripts
06:07:30 <Lilax> oh well I see what's wrong God dammit, teachers
06:08:28 <oerjan> because putting numbers after variables is very unusual
06:08:40 <oerjan> unless they're sub- or superscripted
06:08:56 <Lilax> Ill ask my teacher tmrow
06:09:17 <Lilax> I have weekend school / tutoring
06:09:41 <oerjan> i find it weird that it has \frac but is missing the ^s for superscript
06:10:29 <Lilax> where should the ^s be placed?
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06:10:40 <oerjan> between the variables and the following numbers
06:11:18 <oerjan> i assume there are no multi-digit numbers, otherwise you would need {} brackets too
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06:13:05 * oerjan has forgotten most of the diff eq stuff
06:13:42 <Lilax> Anyways thanks oerjan for some help
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06:27:13 <zzo38> Now I make up "Healing Deal" card: You gain 12 life. Remove all counters from all players. Target opponent draws 4 cards, and then chooses 4 cards from your graveyard and shuffles them into your library. If you do not have that many cards in your graveyard, all of them are shuffled into your library. That opponent may untap a permanent of his choice; if he doesn't, he may gain 2 life.
06:28:01 <shachaf> What counters can a player have other than poison?
06:29:04 <shachaf> You should say "his or her" the way MtG cards do.
06:30:16 <zzo38> I want to abbreviate it.
06:30:38 <shachaf> You should abbreviate with e.g. "their" rather than his.
06:31:01 <glguy> Take a stand and go with "it"
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06:50:30 <zzo38> I also made up a card "Dimir Ciphermage" which can have +1/+1 for each card encoded on it.
06:58:18 <elliott> glguy: oerjan: can we not do that in response to sincere requests?
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07:43:21 <Lilax|sleep> I have to shorten the server msg I get for calling for server/port info
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07:43:58 <Lilax> it like shows how many errors and stuff I have plus server load and how many bytes pass through
08:01:32 <Lilax> is it bad if I force add nicks that are past the nick limit
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08:59:06 <int-e> I have no idea what to do with that toy VPS (except marvel at how laggy it is)... http://104.167.104.168/
08:59:25 <vanila> int-e, can you run xen microkernels like mirage?
08:59:54 <int-e> elliott: well I just logged in and it took seconds! to get a shell.
09:00:08 <elliott> int-e: maybe just try and use 100% CPU/network/disk 24/7 to help sabotage their business model
09:00:16 <int-e> (this has not happened on the lambdabot one)
09:00:18 <elliott> int-e: hmm, are you sure that wasn't because of reverse DNS lookups or whatever
09:00:25 <elliott> ssh does that without "UseDNS no"
09:00:31 <int-e> elliott: hmm, let me check
09:03:29 <int-e> elliott: I guess that was part of it.
09:06:01 <int-e> but mostly I think a lot of stuff was swapped out
09:11:09 <elliott> can xen swap VM memory like that?
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09:22:47 <int-e> vanila: I don't think we've reached the point where one can nest hypervisors yet, have we?
09:23:40 <elliott> nested virtualisation is a thing, but mirage creates machines to run on xen, not hypervisors
09:23:44 <vanila> i was asking because i have agood one you could run
09:23:56 <elliott> if cloudatcost lets you upload, like, your own kernel thing, you should maybe be able to do it
09:24:04 <elliott> a lot of xen providers don't allow that though
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09:29:10 <int-e> uploading kernels works fine. with good timing I can evel select from the grub boot menu if I give that enough time... but it's already running under a hypervisor (a vmware one judging by the boot BIOS splash) so a Xen kernel shouldn't work. (Oh there are people crazy enough to do such things. "HVX employs a technology called Binary Translation ..." err, right. that would work.)
09:29:39 <int-e> s/with good timing I can eve// (didn't delete as much as I wanted)
09:30:41 <elliott> int-e: to be clear: by "xen kernel" here, I mean that mirage kernels run as guests on top of a xen hypervisor (i.e., they are domUs)
09:31:08 <elliott> mirage is not itself a hypervisor, just a toolkit to write OSes that only run under the Xen hypervisor (paravirtualised IO only, etc.)
09:31:15 <elliott> but yeah, vmware means no chance
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09:34:43 <elliott> int-e: if you'd ever like the VPS taken out of your hands I can handle the burden :p
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09:38:21 <int-e> (and give up my canadian IP? no way!)
09:38:56 <int-e> honestly, if it's good for nothing it might still be handy as a proxy.
09:39:05 <elliott> you should run a tor relay on it
09:39:12 <elliott> actually that's kind of a great use
09:39:29 <elliott> the connection is probably fine for it, downtime doesn't matter too much
09:40:01 <int-e> and with some luck I'll get to test how those indemnification clauses work out overseas.
09:40:56 <elliott> that would be for tor exit nodes
09:41:18 <elliott> tor _relays_ won't even get you angry emails, I don't think -- you're never going to be contacting anything but other tor nodes
09:41:18 <int-e> ah whatever. it's an idea all right
09:41:27 <elliott> and you never see any unencrypted content
09:48:45 <int-e> 8. Other Prohibited Activities "Maintaining a relay service open to the general public"
09:49:05 <int-e> I cannot even run an IRC server!
09:49:29 <elliott> don't worry, the general public mostly can't use IRC
09:50:35 <vanila> oh that means you cant run a web server either?
09:50:47 <elliott> depends what counts as a "relay"
09:50:56 <int-e> Some people host a Tor exit node on this provider. They don't seem to properly monitor their nodes.
09:51:03 <elliott> but it's probably meant to ban proxies, not servers in general
09:52:38 <int-e> It's malleable, as usual with ToS agreements.
09:54:34 <int-e> I use them for Tor Relays. Their network abuse management is non-existent.
09:55:04 <int-e> I'm selecting a line by double-clicking, it decides to prepend a newline.
09:55:15 <int-e> THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
09:55:39 <int-e> sorry, calm again.
09:55:53 <Lilax> I'm confused /it tooks seconds to get a shell/ seconds isn't that long?!
09:56:14 <Lilax> also I was way back in the conversation as I can see now
09:56:25 <Lilax> I hate when things don't load
09:57:18 <oerjan> Lilax: i'm pretty sure that was the point
09:57:55 <oerjan> your sentence is ambiguous, you should try commas
09:58:09 <elliott> it takes <1s to start an ssh shell on my server here
09:58:20 <elliott> oerjan: the /.../ was a quote
09:58:25 <Lilax> is that long for you?
09:58:45 <elliott> 1s to open a shell is fine. 5s wouldn't be. I open new terminals and log into my server frequently
09:58:50 <oerjan> elliott: yes but i interpreted the rest as "seconds, isn't that long"
09:58:54 <elliott> there's no reason for it to be slow, anyway
09:59:04 <Lilax> Well elliott 5s isn't that slow
09:59:07 <oerjan> because i got confused by lack of a comma after the quote
09:59:26 <Lilax> I guess I'm never used to fast stuff
09:59:30 <int-e> Lilax: yes it is long. this is just negotiation an ssh connection and displaying a prompt.
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09:59:46 <Lilax> I have a lot of weight on my server
10:00:10 <Jafet> Just today I took twenty minutes to log into a machine. Turns out it was thrashing
10:00:17 <int-e> I don't. It's all those other people running their servers on the same host ;-)
10:00:20 <Lilax> so whenever I use a school computer I'm like WHAT?! this is so fast /o/ _|__|_
10:01:02 <elliott> what OS does your server run on
10:01:04 <int-e> Lilax: Oh and don't get me wrong, that wasn't a complaint.
10:01:25 <int-e> Lilax: I didn't expect any better from that provider. :)
10:01:35 <Jafet> (Also, I learned that some of ubuntu's login scripts are written in python)
10:02:01 <int-e> Okay. I'm running 7.1. ;-)
10:02:05 <Lilax> I thought you were reffering to my schools server, elliott
10:02:23 <int-e> (Except I guess you mean Windows and I mean Debian)
10:02:37 <elliott> I meant your server that has a lot of weight on it
10:03:10 <elliott> also I guess you mean Windows Server 2012 R2, but yeah
10:03:50 <Lilax> Yeah the weight comes from it being connected to a couple chat servers
10:04:33 <Lilax> No but elliott I run VirtualBox on my server and Void Linux on my personal
10:04:47 <elliott> what OS is virtualbox running on?
10:04:49 <elliott> and what OS is running inside it?
10:04:49 <int-e> elliott: did you ever identify Windows 95 as MS-DOS 7.0?
10:05:21 <int-e> (you may be too young, I forgot)
10:05:27 <Lilax> Oh well Then you should have stated that
10:05:57 <Lilax> Ye so I wasn't mistaken maybe?
10:06:23 <elliott> int-e: I think I went windows 3.11 -> windows 98 -> windows Me or something.
10:06:32 <elliott> (windows 3.11 in 1998-ish)
10:06:50 <elliott> virtualbox lets you run an OS on top of another OS... what are the two OSes in question?
10:07:04 <Lilax> ubuntu and windows
10:07:09 <elliott> int-e: I know of the windows-only MS DOS versions though
10:07:12 <int-e> elliott: ok, Windows 98 was MS-DOS 8.0 for its DOS part.
10:07:31 <int-e> (but I skipped that one)
10:07:49 <elliott> windows me was so great, I used it until like 2006 or something
10:07:56 <elliott> by great I mean intolerably awful
10:08:10 <Lilax> My first computer was windows XP
10:08:31 <int-e> something like msdos 5.5 msdos 6.0 win 3.0 win 3.11 win 95 win XP, win 7.
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10:08:43 <Lilax> And that's what i had till i got angry as all hell and stopped using it
10:09:12 <int-e> (and I've only used the latter 2 for playing games)
10:09:28 <int-e> because I have no idea how people get any work done with windows
10:10:01 <Lilax> Well, you see int-e.. They don't.
10:11:41 <Lilax> int-e: if I'm correct those are some pretty old OS
10:14:42 <elliott> windows 7 is "only" five and a half years old
10:15:35 <int-e> I'm buying Windows with new computers, and this one is 4 years old now.
10:15:37 <Lilax> I was 10 yr 5 months when 7 came out?
10:16:06 <elliott> oh man, 16 year olds were born in 1999 these days?
10:16:23 <int-e> (Windows 8 had just came out, I think, and it was obviously crap)
10:16:26 <Lilax> Although my relative view of time is skewed
10:16:33 <elliott> you should have seen 1995, it was wild
10:16:45 <int-e> elliott: relax, most of them were born in 1998 :P
10:17:12 <elliott> int-e: but by the end of the year... :(
10:17:22 <elliott> really 2000 is when it starts scaring me
10:17:31 <Lilax> Its gonna be weird We are gonna be in the 20's again
10:17:35 <int-e> elliott: tick. tock. tick. tock.
10:17:42 <elliott> I'm old and grumpy already
10:17:54 <int-e> elliott: welcome to our world :P
10:18:01 <Lilax> elliott: 65 more years of life?
10:18:08 <Lilax> depending on health
10:18:20 <oerjan> <Lilax> Although my relative view of time is skewed <-- hey so was einstein's!
10:18:24 <elliott> to be honest I've probably become less old and grumpy over the past few years
10:18:58 <elliott> feels like a lot of teenagers get really crotchety and cynical for a while
10:19:39 -!- int-e has set topic: Young and cheery | The horror of fungot | but often spelld. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
10:19:59 <fungot> still here? still here?
10:20:20 <Lilax> If you want I can optimize how long you might live?
10:20:28 <Lilax> Although that morbid
10:20:48 <elliott> optimising how long I live doesn't sound morbid, though maybe you mean something different by that :p
10:20:50 <int-e> Lilax: minimize, you mean? that's brutal.
10:21:15 <Lilax> how old are you int-e
10:21:53 <oerjan> i got int-e's reference
10:22:12 <oerjan> that's probably for the best hth
10:22:30 <int-e> it's a solution for the optimization problem you posed.
10:22:37 <int-e> google can tell you all the rest. don't.
10:22:39 <Lilax> the average human life span is 1-85+
10:22:57 <Lilax> and those rare cases of 100+
10:23:02 <oerjan> Lilax: that's not how averages work hth
10:23:19 <Lilax> I'm always confused oerjan
10:23:54 <Lilax> Mental health issues.
10:24:27 <Lilax> if it helps, you could put age years young
10:24:28 <int-e> One of the big disappointments about growing up is that the confusion doesn't go away, and life doesn't become simple.
10:24:46 <Lilax> eg; I'm 98 years young
10:24:58 <Lilax> because old sounds to mean
10:25:38 <b_jonas> why isn't there a sorcery that simply untaps all creatures?
10:25:58 <Lilax> Because magic b_jonas.
10:28:18 <b_jonas> such a card could work in white or blue
10:29:56 <b_jonas> I was also wondering why there wasn't an enchantment with just "Creatures attack each turn if able." , similar to Curse of the Nightly Hunt.
10:30:40 <Lilax> What are you even talking about?
10:31:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I still can't download the Khans set faq, is that an error on my side?
10:32:39 <b_jonas> I was looking at the Fate Reforged release notes (that's apparently what they call a set faq now), and have seen that it talks about a card with a copy permanent effect but doesn't bother to mention how copying a face down card works. I was wondering if it's at least mentioned in the Khans faq, for Khans also has such a card.
10:33:21 <oerjan> specifically, magic the gathering.
10:33:54 <Lilax> Oh my grandfather plays that
10:34:33 <Taneb> Speaking of, I was going to go to a Magic prerelease today
10:34:38 <b_jonas> there are grandfathers playing magic? isn't it for 13 years and older only?
10:34:43 <Taneb> But I'm not very good at it and I am nervous
10:34:45 <int-e> b_jonas: at least there's an "Untap all creatures you control." (Mobilize)
10:34:48 <Taneb> Well, more anxious
10:35:30 <Taneb> I've been playing Magic for less than a week
10:35:30 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but I specifically want to untap my opponent's creatures
10:35:43 <vanila> does nayone havea converter from lambda calculus to de bruijn in scheme
10:35:49 <Taneb> Wise people of the channel please advise
10:36:12 <b_jonas> int-e: so I can Taunting Elf + Gaze of the Gorgon them
10:36:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm pretty sure most grandfathers are older than 13 hth
10:36:15 <int-e> b_jonas: there's also this fun one "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, untap all creatures." (Intruder alert)
10:36:27 <shachaf> Taneb: i've never been to a mtg prerelease but as i understand it it's among the gentler of official events, specifically intended to be welcoming to new players
10:36:34 <Lilax> explain what a ssl is
10:36:50 <int-e> b_jonas: (that's only half the effect, the other half is that creatures don't untap during the untap step)
10:36:52 <b_jonas> Taneb: in that case, enjoy it, and don't worry about your performance. a pre-release is supposed to be a friendly event.
10:37:02 <b_jonas> Taneb: is it a sealed draft?
10:37:10 <shachaf> b_jonas: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/release-notes-2014-09-18 ?
10:37:11 <Taneb> b_jonas, I do not know what that is
10:37:20 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, Intruder Alarm. that card is bah-roken.
10:37:35 <int-e> b_jonas: It looks so innocent ;-)
10:37:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: which continent is it on?
10:37:45 <Taneb> b_jonas, Europe???
10:37:52 <shachaf> presumably it's on an island
10:38:19 <b_jonas> Mobilize? wtf... oh, from Portal. No, there's one outsite portal too: To Arms!
10:38:24 <shachaf> so make sure to get lots of blue cards
10:38:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I mean, how much damage could a piece of cardboard and some colorful ink do?!
10:39:03 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, back then it didn't even have hologram stickers on it like real money
10:39:13 <shachaf> As I remember it, if you copy a face-down card, you get a face-up 2/2 colorless creature with no creature types etc.
10:39:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I know. but why isn't that mentioned in the set faq, for a card that has a non-optional copy permanent effect?
10:41:10 -!- TieSoul_ has changed nick to TieSoul.
10:41:35 <shachaf> I've barely played with KTK.
10:41:51 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that interacts with manifest.
10:42:11 <shachaf> I guess I'll read the definition of manifest when it's released.
10:42:34 <shachaf> Oh, that's in the release notes you just mentioned.
10:43:23 <shachaf> Hmm, so do copy effects copy the fact that a permanent is manifested?
10:44:51 <shachaf> It looks like a permanent stops being manifested when it's turned face up, but a copy effect would never turn it face up.
10:45:12 <shachaf> So maybe if you copied a manifested permanent, and then turned the copy face down, it would be manifested.
10:45:33 <shachaf> Hmm, but maybe the copy effect stops anyway when you turn it face down?
10:46:00 <Lilax> 300+ms is not what I expected from my servers preformance
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10:47:51 <shachaf> OK, apparently turning a Clone face-down doesn't stop the copy effect.
10:48:11 <shachaf> But I would guess that "being manifested" isn't copied.
10:48:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: the update bulletin is out as well
10:49:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: and yes, they copy a 2/2 vanilla creature, but no, the copy will not be manifested or face down, it's only its characteristics that are changed to similar ones
10:50:00 <shachaf> I know it doesn't copy the face that it's face-down, but I wasn't sure about being manifested.
10:50:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: copying _to_ a face down permanent is different, but that doesn't come up this set becaue there are no cards like Cytoshape that can do that
10:50:42 <shachaf> Hmm, which situation are you imagining there?
10:53:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: just simply using Flamerush Rider or Clever Impersonator and targetting a face down creature
10:55:10 <shachaf> Would it copy "manifested" or not? If not, what if a card was manifested and then you made it a copy of something else, would it keep manifested?
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10:58:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: no. use Cytoshape to make a face down morph card (say a Scornful Egoist) a copy of an elephant. then, I think (but I'm not sure) while the wizard is face down, it's still a 2/2 colorless creature, and when it's face up, it's a 3/3 elephant.
10:59:31 <int-e> Oh, Friday's xkcd was great.
11:00:06 <oerjan> friday's GG was basically trolling
11:00:41 <int-e> oerjan: let's see if they can stretch this through the whole next week, shall we?
11:01:01 <oerjan> no, they promised monday would be back to normal
11:01:01 <shachaf> b_jonas: Can you turn it face up for the morph cost when it's a face-down elephant?
11:01:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm, good question. probably not
11:01:28 <vanila> How to get into girl genius?
11:02:06 <shachaf> b_jonas: What if I manifest a sorcery card and then make it a copy of a Scornful Egotist?
11:02:13 <shachaf> Can I turn it face-up for {U}?
11:02:53 <shachaf> "A face-down permanent represented by an instant or sorcery card can't be turned face up."
11:03:04 <shachaf> Same question with s/sorcery/land/, then.
11:03:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe you can because it's not a sorcery if it's a copy of the wizard creature
11:03:35 <int-e> oerjan: oh so they did, what happened to Gikka then? And are you sure they mean *next* Monday?)
11:03:44 <shachaf> But it's still "represented by a sorcery card", right?
11:04:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: you'll need someone who knows the rules more than me
11:05:04 <int-e> oerjan: or perhaps they'll present the chapter title page and then continue their foolery on Wednesday ;)
11:05:09 <Lilax> is why I don't play with my grandfather
11:05:16 <JesseH> Did someone say sorcery? Oh a game
11:05:34 <JesseH> I'm actively seeking occultists to interview
11:05:34 <int-e> oerjan: I mean, while they're still on a roll trolling.
11:05:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: this is a good question, I might ask it on a forum
11:06:04 <int-e> JesseH: you're in the wrong place :P
11:06:23 <oerjan> int-e: i guess they dropped gkika, she didn't really show her dress much in the original play, except when quilted...
11:06:30 <Lilax> JesseH: if you are seekinh occultists
11:06:39 <shachaf> I had various related questions.
11:06:42 <int-e> jesseh: Here we're only interested in sorceries that go on a stack. That makes is computer sciencey :P
11:06:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: especially as Cytoshape wears off at end of turn
11:06:51 <JesseH> int-e, I know! I'm in other channels on the weird networks. I'm wanting to create an occult inspired esolang.
11:06:52 <b_jonas> but I'll have to read the setfaq first
11:07:01 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure "represented by a sorcery card" is unambiguous.
11:07:10 <b_jonas> it might already answer this
11:07:11 <Lilax> An occult inspired esolang?
11:07:25 <JesseH> Might just do harry potter lang
11:07:28 <Lilax> Just use Demon tongue chars
11:07:35 <shachaf> If I manifest a creature card with a high cost, and then make it a copy of a creature with a low cost, can I turn it face-up for the low cost?
11:08:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, I'd just blink it instead if I wanted to cheat on costs
11:08:29 <shachaf> If I have a face-down Morph card, and I make it a copy of a card that I manifested, am I able to manifest it?
11:08:29 <oerjan> vanila: girl genius is an epic plot story so you really have to start at the beginning.
11:08:35 <shachaf> I guess you already answered that last one with a no.
11:08:37 <Lilax> Isn't there a card deck in that game that lets you get.infinite mana
11:08:54 <JesseH> avadra x is kedavra b00000001
11:09:29 <b_jonas> I admit I don't really understand how copy permanent effects work
11:10:11 <Lilax> we are summoning Satan
11:10:21 <b_jonas> and I'm not sure I like manifest because it makes you skip beneficial etb triggers or replaced abilities like that of Order of the Stars
11:10:26 <int-e> I think b_jonas is lost in layers (I would be, too, if I were to consider them.)
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11:10:47 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the copy rules are sort of ambiguously written and strange
11:10:49 <Lilax> I know how to solve this card game
11:11:04 <Lilax> and walk out of room
11:11:11 <int-e> Lilax: that will not affect the tokens (if made of steel)
11:11:13 <b_jonas> int-e: but sadly it's getting harder and harder to ignore them because wotc keeps printing lots of copy permanent effects at low rarities these last five years
11:11:41 <b_jonas> int-e: no, you're definitely not allowed to use coins to repreesnt tokens or counters or anything in game
11:11:42 <Lilax> Ugh every where I go its just this game
11:11:56 <int-e> b_jonas: metal cubes
11:12:18 <int-e> b_jonas: and what? really?
11:13:29 <b_jonas> int-e: per tournament rules, because they're worried the coins can cause confusion with authorities thinking you're playing unauthorized gambling games for money.
11:13:33 <Lilax> I'm making fork bombs now
11:13:40 <b_jonas> int-e: so you're not allowed to use money.
11:13:53 <int-e> b_jonas: right. makes no sense. makes sense. I dunno.
11:13:58 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, it does make sense
11:14:14 <b_jonas> it's a bit unfortunate, but still
11:14:16 <int-e> b_jonas: not really :P
11:14:50 <b_jonas> that said, I do use coins in casual play, as well as dice and small pieces of cardboard
11:14:55 <int-e> b_jonas: but it's the context, where not playing for money may look like you actually may be playing for money.
11:14:59 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:15:13 <Lilax> atleast its active in here...
11:15:26 <int-e> b_jonas: (I guess in a tournament you also want to prevent things like "resign and I'll gift you all my precious tokens")
11:15:37 <Lilax> http://i.imgur.com/JaZLhYX.jpg
11:16:44 <Lilax> oh my god to what?
11:17:16 <int-e> the world-embracing, world-devouring cat
11:17:20 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, bribing is definitely not allowed
11:18:23 <Lilax> Evil king chuckle fish
11:18:58 <Lilax> Do any of you have pets?
11:19:36 <int-e> do spiders weaving their nets in various corners count?
11:20:13 <oerjan> AndoDaan: are you saying india is fucked
11:20:32 <int-e> oerjan: he didn't have to, hth
11:21:05 <elliott> we have different definitions of tiny
11:21:06 <Lilax> AndoDaan: dont ruin the kitty picture
11:21:08 <AndoDaan> Neuter your pets, ppl! I can't stress that enough.
11:21:33 <elliott> I can't believe we're talking about this.
11:21:48 <AndoDaan> THey still have outie like genitals when excited though.
11:22:02 <Lilax> I just wanted to show a cute kitty picture!
11:22:14 <Lilax> do you know this AndoDaan
11:22:37 <Lilax> how does he know this
11:22:43 -!- shikhin has joined.
11:22:55 <AndoDaan> I mean... we've all been curious.
11:23:02 <Lilax> its not common knowledge
11:23:05 <int-e> Lilax: Sorry. There's a maximum size for cute cats, and this picture exceeds that by several orders of magnitude.
11:23:24 -!- elliott has set topic: ANYTHING BUT CAT DICKS | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
11:23:41 <Lilax> AndoDaan: I do not not know what to say to that comment
11:23:43 <int-e> elliott: rub it in, will you...
11:23:49 <Lilax> cat dicks have barbs
11:23:54 -!- int-e has left.
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11:24:11 <oerjan> elliott: there is no escape. wait where did int-e go.
11:24:11 <AndoDaan> Uhm. oerjan, or anyone, is there anykind of... type of program that would send a BCT or CT or Tag system interpreter through it's pacess?
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11:24:56 <Lilax> I'm still curious about AndoDaans knowledge but ill leave this alone
11:24:57 <oerjan> hm alas i've been mainly converting _from_ BCT
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11:25:30 <elliott> discrete calculus is a (cute) thing
11:25:58 <Lilax> AndoDaan: you are a tad bit creepy /no offense/
11:26:44 <elliott> sadly the only secrets on offer today appear to be about magic the gathering or feline genitalia
11:26:44 <AndoDaan> From BCT to...? I can't imagine trying to actually programming in it.
11:26:58 <HackEgo> OneRatShort: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:27:38 <Jafet> How many paces do you need a BCT interpreter sent through
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11:27:59 <oerjan> AndoDaan: well BCT is known to be turing complete, so converting _from_ it is a good way to show other languages TC. you don't have to actually know how to program BCT for it...
11:28:08 <AndoDaan> I've only tested it with the Collatz example from the wiki.
11:28:59 <oerjan> the thing is, BCT doesn't really have output, so the incentive for actually programming in it is low.
11:29:04 <Jafet> As in, throw a dart, write down the number you got in binary and chances are that it's a nonterminating BCT program
11:29:09 <Lilax> Why can't we be normal
11:31:08 <AndoDaan> Hmm. Would all useful BCT programs follow the 1=11 0=10 ;=0 conversion from a CT program?
11:31:34 <oerjan> Lilax: normal is just a specific kind of broken that people for some reason pretend to prefer hth
11:31:41 <b_jonas> no easy way to give all creatures vigilance either, without side effects. (Synchronous Sliver plus Shields of Velis Vel works in theory.)
11:32:07 <Lilax> please don't give me facts about cats
11:32:49 <b_jonas> ok, so is there an instant or something that just stops creatures of my opponent from attacking this turn _without_ attacking?
11:33:03 <b_jonas> a Fog usually does the trick, but not if I already have the Taunting Elf in play
11:33:24 <Lilax> I want to set the topic >_>
11:33:32 <Lilax> but this is a lot of pressure
11:34:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Magic Channel | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
11:34:21 <oerjan> now accurate and shouldn't confuse _anyone_ hth
11:34:30 <Lilax> now its even more pressure
11:34:51 <b_jonas> um, if it bothers you, we can go to another channel
11:34:57 <Lilax> a language that's just +'s and /'s
11:35:05 <Lilax> no its not bothering me!
11:35:09 <b_jonas> is there like an instant with "Detain all creatures."?
11:35:25 <oerjan> Lilax: try just \ and / and you've got a nice subset of ///
11:35:44 <Lilax> Wow I am the definition of a modest liar
11:36:36 <Lilax> = x + = s / = / + / = n
11:36:54 <Lilax> it looks very pristine
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11:37:14 <Lilax> I should make useless stuff again, lol
11:37:27 <b_jonas> I'm the very model of the modern EDH general
11:37:45 <oerjan> AndoDaan: well the only way to get a BCT program that doesn't come from a CT program is to have an alignment mismatch at the end, and it won't really differ for more than one cycle.
11:39:01 <AndoDaan> And all CT programs come from converting a tag system alphabet (a=100 b=010 c=001...)?
11:39:27 <Lilax> I feel like /'s and +'s are better oerjan plus its easier I guess if I were to make sub classes and it looks pretty
11:39:53 <vanila> cyclic tag is so smiple
11:39:57 <vanila> it seems like it shouldn't be TC!
11:39:58 <Lilax> like i swear the sub class would be - and \
11:40:07 <vanila> it feels in a differen class to turing machines
11:40:17 <b_jonas> Lilax: pluses and slashes? so all the cards would give p/t bonuses to other cards?
11:40:38 <Lilax> I remember my first encounter
11:42:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: not if you choose it.
11:42:23 <shachaf> What about e.g. Nantuko Mentor?
11:42:26 <Lilax> apparently breaks my latex
11:42:49 <shachaf> I guess +X/+X for a creature with negative power would subtract from power and toughness.
11:43:10 <Lilax> I was uhm not talking about magic b_jonas
11:43:25 <shachaf> It looks like it works the way you'd expect.
11:43:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'm not sure which way I expect it
11:44:12 <shachaf> OK, it works the way I'd expect.
11:44:32 <shachaf> It would make a -1/1 into a -2/0
11:44:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's Viridian Joiner though it doesn't mention X
11:44:49 <Lilax> My grandma has a very old Guide book on basic
11:44:54 <int-e> there's a rule like "If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead..."
11:45:08 <shachaf> What about draw X cards where X is negative, etc.?
11:45:13 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but there's some partial exception for powers and toughnesses
11:45:31 <shachaf> Power can be negative, but a creature with negative power just deals no damage in combat.
11:45:37 <b_jonas> wasn't there a card that put X tokens into play where X is the power of something
11:45:56 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22where+x+is+that+creature%27s+power%22
11:46:09 <b_jonas> I remmeber that because it's funny in un-sets with half power stuff
11:46:19 <shachaf> What does it mean to put -1 +1/+1 counters on something?
11:46:20 <b_jonas> there's also the newer Feed the Pack
11:46:26 <int-e> b_jonas: Ok, I guess it makes sense for power. But for drawing X cards, or placing X tokens, that rule should take effect.
11:46:42 <b_jonas> int-e: certainly, the question is whether it takes effect for that power-modifying thingy or not
11:46:50 <shachaf> b_jonas: Can toughness ever be negative?
11:47:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: not for long, because the creature dies quickly, but it can
11:47:25 <Lilax> Is it weird if my grandma knows more about.haskell than me
11:47:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's easier if you make the creature indestructible
11:47:36 <shachaf> I mean, for long enough for Feed the Pack to be relevant?
11:47:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: use indestructible
11:48:02 <b_jonas> oh wait, that doesn't help
11:48:04 <OneRatShort> anyone have any experience in opening their 3rd eye ?
11:48:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: try Fungal Sprouting then
11:49:20 <Lilax> list the options off in one text
11:49:23 <b_jonas> hmm, what would Miming Slime do?
11:49:47 <shachaf> Sure, but I was specifically wondering about negative toughness.
11:50:29 <shachaf> E.g. maybe you can have something like Wall of Roots, where you put a counter on it to pay for a spell and also sacrifice it as part of the same spell.
11:50:32 <Lilax> I swear I'm scared that my grandma has more experience in esoteric languages than I do
11:50:48 <shachaf> A spell like Momentous Fall.
11:50:49 <Lilax> when did this whole esoteric thing start
11:51:09 <Lilax> have a lot of momentum
11:51:11 <shachaf> Wouldn't work with Wall of Roots, but maybe with something else.
11:52:25 <oerjan> Lilax: the first major esoteric language is usually considered INTERCAL from the 70s, i think.
11:52:47 <oerjan> but the real flood didn't start until about '93
11:53:05 <oerjan> which is when both brainfuck and befunge were made
11:53:23 <int-e> "Being indestructible stops only effects that would destroy the permanent, including destruction due to lethal damage and destruction that doesn't allow regeneration. An indestructible permanent can be exiled, returned to a player's hand, put into a graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, or sacrificed."
11:53:32 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, I was stupid
11:53:36 -!- OneRatShort has left.
11:54:03 <Lilax> idk how old she was back then but uh
11:54:04 <int-e> nice use of past tense.
11:54:10 <b_jonas> is there a distinction between saying "grown-up's toy" and "grown-ups' toy" depending on whether it's used solo?
11:54:19 <Lilax> I guess she knows how to do a lot of code
11:55:41 <oerjan> Lilax: haskell isn't usually considered esoteric, although it's from 1990
11:56:20 <b_jonas> yeah, haskell is just "non-mainstream"
11:56:31 <Lilax> I said she knows more than me
11:56:58 <Lilax> But she knows More about esolangs than I thought
11:57:19 <Lilax> I should ask her what she knows about teh computers nexr time I see her
11:57:39 <oerjan> i think my father (who's probably older than your granma) knows how to program in principle, although i don't think he does it much
11:58:15 <Lilax> ye your father is probably older since you are 44
11:58:30 <oerjan> hey someone remembers my age!
11:58:39 <Lilax> I remember all ages
11:59:09 <Lilax> Only for one reason
11:59:25 <shachaf> imo you should swat me for belaboring the point
11:59:41 <Lilax> shachaf: likes to be hit?
11:59:56 <shachaf> i thought you were leaving
12:00:14 <Lilax> Its slowly turning off
12:00:29 <Lilax> but I can still type until..
12:00:30 -!- int-e has set topic: Collective Magicing | Programming through the Ages | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
12:00:51 <b_jonas> I don't remember ages, but I remember oerjan is a haskellite
12:01:30 <int-e> > text $ map pred "Sfnfncfs!nf\""
12:02:11 <Lilax> ill probs remember all of you even after you die
12:02:17 <Lilax> Cuz I never forget
12:03:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: that's the only logical conclusion
12:04:31 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, their average life span isn't so great it seems.
12:05:24 <oerjan> it's ok Lilax doesn't understand averages anyway
12:06:02 <int-e> oerjan: would that make it an average understanding of averages?
12:08:16 <b_jonas> is she a white or a green elephant?
12:08:41 <b_jonas> I don't follow genders either
12:08:53 <oerjan> well but you're hungarian
12:09:37 <int-e> actually, can we stop discussing animals for a day or two?
12:09:50 <oerjan> int-e: but then we could only talk with em when we're drunk...
12:10:56 <int-e> "journey of an ant" was a cute game. *lalala* . o O ( happy thoughts )
12:12:06 <oerjan> ants are animals too hth
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12:12:55 <int-e> `learn ants are animals too hth
12:12:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'ant': ants are animals too hth
12:14:21 <int-e> . o O ( things Oerjan Could Do )
12:14:35 <oerjan> `? misspellings of croissant
12:14:36 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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12:15:31 <b_jonas> no wait, that's misspel;led
12:15:37 <int-e> hmm, what would you call a corouscant-shaped omelette?
12:15:40 <oerjan> why would you want ants in your couscous
12:16:10 <int-e> Ah, missspelled typos.
12:17:02 <int-e> Will this become an antology of typos?
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12:19:03 * oerjan is still waiting for the answer twh hth
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12:19:20 <oerjan> forgot that script bug
12:20:16 <int-e> oerjan: you woke the beast within, turns out it's small, has six legs, and is crazy about sugar.
12:20:54 <oerjan> well if it weren't small it would be a giant
12:21:20 <int-e> but despite its size it can rant all day.
12:22:10 <oerjan> an insectful observation.
12:22:45 <int-e> (isn't that phantastic? with only three letters it's scantly possible to avoid that word even if you wanted to.)
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12:30:50 <int-e> there's really a lot of those words... blatantly bantering ants defiantly enchant dormant elephants.
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13:03:15 <b_jonas> int-e: beast within... is that like antman, the recurring super-villain in StickManStickMan, see http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=62
13:07:23 <int-e> b_jonas: maybe, but I've never seen that comic before.
13:14:06 <b_jonas> antman appears only once more after he's defeated I think, so I'm not sure if he counts as a recurring villain
13:15:17 <b_jonas> he returns in http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=638
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14:22:41 <b_jonas> wait... when did http://www.gocomics.com/heavenly-nostrils/ get its title changed?
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15:25:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41697&oldid=41696 * AndoDaan * (+27) Added to TC category.
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15:29:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41698&oldid=41681 * AndoDaan * (-2123) Undo revision 41681 by [[Special:Contributions/AndoDaan|AndoDaan]] ([[User talk:AndoDaan|talk]]) I was a bit premature in adding the Wang B-machine outline.
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18:02:27 <int-e> wow, people are actually competing for the 101 scrabble words thing
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18:04:12 <int-e> > 101 * 2 * log 28/ log 256
18:04:21 <int-e> > 101 * 2 * log 26/ log 256
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19:09:25 <AndoDaan> I don't know what to do with myself now I'm done with MNNBFSL.
19:13:39 <zzo38> Make an implementation of Remote Virtual Table Protocol. Alternatively, make up a new kind of computer game. Even more alternatively, now you have to do LSFBNNM.
19:14:05 <MDude> http://www.atomicshrimp.com/st/content/invention_dice_2/
19:14:23 <AndoDaan> LSFBNNM... now that's an idea.
19:17:12 <vanila> AndoDaan, how did you write this BCT interpreter?
19:17:17 <vanila> i dont see a lot of binary numbers in the source code
19:18:02 <AndoDaan> It takes the BCT code and init string from the standard input.
19:18:19 <AndoDaan> in the form /BCTcode.initString//
19:19:19 <AndoDaan> In the end that was just easier to implent than comming up with a method to hard code the data each time.
19:21:44 <AndoDaan> I've updated my MNNBFSL javascript interpreter if you wanted to give the BCT interpreter a whirl.
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19:22:19 <vanila> it must have been hard to write...
19:23:24 <AndoDaan> I'm a bit embarrassed actually about how long it took me. But since it was my first time doing something like that, I learned a lot.
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19:24:06 <vanila> i dont think many people could do this at all!
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19:25:47 <AndoDaan> Ah, well some of the snippits I've gotten off other's their code. But I did come up with a search algorithm that can drag a value with it.
19:27:05 <AndoDaan> And that was key for the BCT interpreter I think.
19:31:05 <AndoDaan> So, what is holding your interest lately, vanila?
19:33:16 <vanila> ive just been working on compilers, non esotierc
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19:51:06 <zzo38> Now I made up some more Magic: the Gathering cards
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20:03:48 <zzo38> One thing I made up is "Target spell loses all subtypes."
20:10:08 <pikhq> That does weird things to enchantments.
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20:14:17 <Lilax> Discussing if I was an elephant after I left ._.
20:14:23 <Sgeo> " Make sure that you use the correct screws. If you have a torque screwdriver, tighten all screws firmly to the torque shown in the table. Never use a screw that you removed. Use a new one. Make sure that all screws are tightened firmly"
20:14:31 <Sgeo> Manual (I think for service people) for my machine
20:14:39 <Lilax> I learner that in woodshop
20:14:41 <Sgeo> Blah, how critical is it to use new screws?
20:15:34 <Lilax> Eg: If you use an old screw the drill bit can fracture and now you have shrapnel flying around
20:15:58 <Lilax> oops you've lost your eyes
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20:17:57 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know it does weird things to enchantments. Many auras will just fail to work, although some will continue to partially work anyways.
20:19:39 <pikhq> It also makes arcane spells sad. :)
20:21:17 <Lilax> I have a friend.who goes by piks
20:21:26 <zzo38> Actually it doesn't looks to me that it would affect the ability to splice onto arcane.
20:21:50 <pikhq> Yes, but there's abilities that trigger on arcane spells resolving, no?
20:22:13 <pikhq> Certainly can't affect splicing though.
20:22:28 <pikhq> There's no point at which splicing could be done and that spell could have resolved on another spell.
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20:26:04 <Lilax> 'I thought I had some blue cheese in my fridge, but to my disappointment it was just normal cheese accelerating towards me'
20:26:31 <zzo38> I suppose it would allow arcane spells to damage Kitsune Riftwalker (but only for untargeted damage)
20:27:30 <pikhq> Lilax: Sounds dangerous.
20:28:15 <pikhq> The velocity there would be absurd for blue shift to be noticable.
20:28:17 <Lilax> Ok, Just makin' sure
20:28:22 <pikhq> I presume this is why it's past tense. :)
20:28:45 <elliott> would you even have enough time to process the sensory input
20:29:00 <pikhq> Ballpark on the order of .2c
20:29:03 <Lilax> If you opened your fridge
20:29:13 <pikhq> elliott: No, neurons don't go that fast.
20:29:17 <Lilax> from the other side of the city
20:29:29 <elliott> what kind of house do you live in, Lilax
20:29:31 <elliott> what kind of arms do you have.
20:29:48 <Lilax> my arms fell into a blackhole
20:29:55 <elliott> how does the cheese suddenly accelerate to .2c only as you open the door
20:29:58 <elliott> there are so many questions here
20:30:14 <pikhq> Perhaps you have a nuclear fridge.
20:30:25 <Lilax> Ok so in my freshman year
20:30:38 <Lilax> I had to solve for the speed of light
20:30:52 <Lilax> As it enters an event horizon
20:31:11 <Lilax> I failed that so did the entire class
20:32:16 <pikhq> "C = 1 foot/nanosecond" there, I answered it. :)
20:33:21 <Lilax> if only I had pikhq in 9th grade
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20:35:38 <elliott> you never played pokemon as a kid?
20:36:09 <zzo38> Learn how to play Pokemon card!
20:36:13 <Lilax> Pokemon Heart gold was my first one
20:36:20 <elliott> the joke is that pikhq is pikachu
20:36:37 <Lilax> Look people, I am not good at the card games
20:36:52 <Lilax> Its just to much pressure for my frail heart
20:38:45 <pikhq> "Pokemon heart gold was my first one" now I feel old.
20:40:19 <Lilax> Then I played yellow on a emulator
20:40:33 <Lilax> Then I got A gameboy colour
20:40:42 <Lilax> Oh man that was the shit
20:40:51 <Lilax> back in elementary.
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20:48:32 <int-e> ouch. https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671
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20:49:55 <vanila> bash is such a good language
20:52:28 <elliott> I'm glad we use operating systems where a program you run accidentally doing rm -rf /* is enough to delete all your personal files that it would otherwise never need to even know about the existence of :(
20:52:57 <vanila> that's a good point actually
20:53:13 <vanila> there's two things you could improve here: the language (not using bash), and the OS itself
20:53:23 <int-e> it's easy, just make /home unreadable to everyone :P
20:54:22 <int-e> (Of course I don't)
20:54:43 <int-e> (and it wouldn't have helped with the /media anyway)
20:54:54 <elliott> to be fair, "for path in glob.glob(os.path.join(steam_root, '*')): os.remove(path)" or whatever is just as broken
20:55:00 <elliott> if steam_root can be empty
20:55:18 <elliott> you can argue with bash making it empty in the first place but it's not as slam-dunk a bash issue as a lot of shell script bugs are
20:55:21 <pikhq> It's just unfortunate that common OSes don't have any degree of application sandboxing.
20:55:27 <int-e> STEAMROOT="$(cd "${0%/*}" && echo $PWD)" <-- this is also completely wrong if $0 is a symlink
20:55:49 <pikhq> (ideally Steam wouldn't be *able* to delete all that stuff)
20:56:07 <int-e> I'm using DIR=$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")") which is probably not perfect either. But I'm not removing any files there :P
20:56:32 <int-e> and... missing an outer pair of quotes? maybe.
20:56:43 <pikhq> No, the outer pair of quotes is unneeded.
20:56:59 <pikhq> When you're setting a variable, sh parses from the = to the end of the line as part of the variable.
20:57:14 <pikhq> (this is a bizarre special case in sh syntax)
20:57:42 <int-e> But there's the FOO=bar cmd syntax.
20:57:50 <pikhq> I misstated somewhat.
20:58:01 <int-e> but $() cannot be broken apart like that.
20:58:09 <elliott> http://www.etalabs.net/sh_tricks.html
20:58:21 <pikhq> Yeah, always a good thing.
20:58:27 <elliott> "The following is not safe:
20:58:28 <elliott> Due to most commands writing a newline at the end of their output, Bourne-style command substitution was designed to strip training newlines from the output. But it doesn’t just strip one trailing newline; it strips them all. In the above command, if f contains any trailing newlines in the last directory component, they will be stripped, yielding a different directory name. While no one sane would put
20:58:34 <pikhq> Rich Felker is as general awesome.
20:58:35 <elliott> newlines in directory names, such corruption of the results could lead to exploitable vulnerabilities in scripts."
20:59:00 <pikhq> s/as general/as always, generally/
20:59:04 <int-e> if f contains any trailing newlines ... well, yes
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20:59:17 <int-e> as I said I'm not deleting any files :)
20:59:20 <vanila> also having files called -help --help
20:59:24 <vanila> and then doing ls * or something
20:59:29 <pikhq> vanila: That's easy to deal with though.
20:59:47 <elliott> also I think readlink isn't that portable
20:59:48 <vanila> that doesn't stop it being a problem
20:59:50 <pikhq> Sadly most people are completely ignorant about that feature of getopt-style syntax.
20:59:55 <vanila> the reason its a problem is because you can do these things by mistake
20:59:58 <elliott> I don't have readlink -f, though I'm on OS X
21:00:17 <pikhq> (even though that has been in getopt *as long as there has been a getopt*)
21:00:23 <zzo38> When writing shell scripts I also usually type #!/bin/bash -- just in case someone decides to allow the operating system to setuid shell scripts and then they rename the file with - at first
21:01:17 <pikhq> But then, people suck.
21:01:22 <int-e> elliott: interesting, I thought that program had a mac user. I've got to inquire.
21:02:02 * pikhq "loves" how so many common utils have shitty edge cases
21:02:03 <elliott> int-e: what does your script do?
21:02:44 <zzo38> I was aware of -- syntax at least, I don't know why a lot of people don't know very well?
21:02:52 <int-e> elliott: there's a config file right next to the wrapper script, and I want to find it even when the wrapper script is symlinked (usually from ~/bin)
21:03:58 <int-e> elliott: so I have something like DIR=$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")"); "$DIR"/tool -conf "$DIR"/tool.conf
21:04:24 <zzo38> I have implemented -- syntax in some of my own programs too if they have a filename as a command-line argument, although some of my programs don't use command-line arguments at all and only act as a filter
21:04:56 <zzo38> It is too bad many new programs will not act as a filter.
21:05:15 <vanila> I think the real solution is switching langauge to something that does't have these difficulties
21:07:21 <zzo38> But is scheme shell capable of fixing programs to act like a filter, or to allow "ls *" to work even though the files named with - at front?
21:07:36 <vanila> the idea would be to pass flags in a different way than files
21:07:51 <vanila> e.g. (ls (flags help) (file -foo bar))
21:07:55 <vanila> and it should work fine
21:08:10 <vanila> i mean this is just an idea, it coudl be haskell or something else
21:08:15 <zzo38> Yes that would work, if the program is designed in that way.
21:09:13 <zzo38> With Haskell programs it could clearly work, by dynamically importing modules to do the stuff; other executable files can maybe also be imported as a IO ()
21:09:50 <zzo38> Or better would be ([String] -> IO Int) or something like that; you can then add other commands for redirection too.
21:10:37 <vanila> well it should be [Parameter] where data Parameter = Flag String | File String o r something like this
21:10:39 <int-e> elliott: I guess I could write a perl script instead :P
21:10:41 <vanila> to be able to distriguish them
21:10:45 <zzo38> However these kind of ways of doing this with Haskell program, would work best if the operating system is using Haskell too. Probably also if you are using Scheme, it would work best if the operating system is using Scheme.
21:10:54 <int-e> elliott: but this is an academic tool, I'll wait for the complaints.
21:11:00 <vanila> yeys I want to make an OS which isn't based on files
21:11:06 <vanila> but i think its too hard to write a whole OS
21:11:21 <nys> what about STEPS :3
21:11:22 <zzo38> vanila: The thing is that if the operating system isn't Haskell it won't know that! If you are importing Haskell programs then the program can have whatever type you want it to have and don't have that problem.
21:11:33 <vanila> yeah, something with a vision like STEPS!
21:11:38 <elliott> int-e: not sure perl is the right step up from there
21:12:00 <int-e> elliott: well there's no GNU perl or Sun perl...
21:12:14 <vanila> yes zzo38 that's a good point, a lot of the OS tools force us to have these problems
21:12:21 <vanila> but knowing that we can try to addres it
21:13:09 <int-e> elliott: so for portably implementing readlink (which POSIX apparently doesn't have at all), that's an option.
21:13:25 <elliott> posix doesn't have perl either though
21:13:34 <elliott> I think you can do that construct portably though
21:13:42 <zzo38> Of course one thing that can be done, if you are making this with Haskell, is to write modules that can be used as wrappers for non-Haskell programs which will figure out the correct command-line arguments and other stuff.
21:13:44 <int-e> right. but perl is installed almost everywhere anyway
21:13:51 <pikhq> POSIX has awk, but no Perl.
21:14:02 <pikhq> POSIX does have C though. :D
21:14:46 <int-e> C is fine, but not for scripting.
21:14:47 <elliott> https://github.com/mkropat/sh-realpath
21:15:24 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, although there are many other programming languages that can be used for scripting, depending on what you need it for you can use it.
21:15:25 <elliott> needs a readlink but not one with -f and you can emulate it with ls
21:15:33 <elliott> but then maybe you run into escaping issues?? joy!
21:15:51 <int-e> elliott: so that's avoiding readlink -f but still uses readlink.
21:16:58 <zzo38> I happen to like AWK for text processing
21:17:10 <vanila> ive used awk a couple times..
21:17:18 <vanila> i thought i should use perl instead
21:17:34 <zzo38> Although there are a few things missing (as well as a few GNU extensions which don't seem much useful to me)
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21:18:47 <int-e> awk occupies a middle ground between sed and perl to me. I use it occasionally.
21:21:15 <pikhq> Well yes, Perl is basically awk++.
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21:21:54 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't, because I use perl when I need that sort of thing
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21:25:09 <zzo38> And for data processing, there is SQLite.
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21:32:09 <int-e> Meh. "PR" is overloaded. "Problem Report" "Public Relations" "Pull Request".
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22:00:00 <int-e> I didn't need to know this (acronymfinder): Per Rectum (method of medication)
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22:09:59 <Lilax> Make time bans for irc
22:10:53 <int-e> you just have to remember to unset them again
22:11:38 <int-e> (or have a bot that does it automatically (freenode has a service bot, eir, for this... not sure how to get it on channels though))
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22:14:22 <Lilax> I just have a :tban (user) (time) but sometimes it forks the time to x100 times that
22:14:31 <Lilax> so ye ill just go find that bot
22:15:41 <int-e> (also eir makes *all* bans expire, it can be annoying.)
22:16:56 <Lilax> I can make it even more annoying (user) ban expire @1sec = reban
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22:17:21 <Lilax> it bans then expires in 1second then detects unban and bans again
22:17:35 <Lilax> Although the msgs would spam
22:19:29 <Lilax> This is all for The modding system I'm making for reasons since ye
22:19:36 <Lilax> People abuse my bot a lot
22:21:00 <int-e> please do not use the return key for punctuation. we can wait for whole sentences, we're patient like that.
22:21:36 <Lilax> Oh, I'm not used to that.. Sorry.
22:22:58 <Lilax> Everyone I'm around usually talks like that.
22:23:35 <int-e> (It's not a strict rule either, more of a guideline. I've found that sticking to that allows me to communicate more coherently. (Yes, I could be even more incoherent. ;-) ))
22:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41699&oldid=40888 * AndoDaan * (+23)
22:32:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41700&oldid=41699 * AndoDaan * (+1)
22:46:39 <oerjan> int-e: seems like the solution to the latest golf problem is pretty canonical :)
22:46:59 <oerjan> (he said, just before henkma swooped down with 42)
22:47:09 <oerjan> ^ not an actual event. yet.
22:49:29 <oerjan> sometimes it annoys me that . has an incompatible fixity with the default one for `ident`s.
22:50:01 <oerjan> it's associative, so it didn't _have_ to
22:51:39 <oerjan> even if the current one is slightly more intuitive for how lazy equational thinking expands it
23:13:10 <zzo38> I want to make up the programming language RULECARD and then make up the rules for Aberration Hater Card Game using that, but, perhaps at first I can do it just in normal text and then convert it later. And then rules for Magic: the Gathering should also be written using such programming language, so that you can know exactly how it is working and Wizards of the Coast should learn to use such programming language too.
23:14:55 <zzo38> Do you think this is a better idea than the other way?
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23:19:46 <zzo38> This is how to win at Pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.org/img_16/pokemoncard1.png
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23:34:02 <Taneb> zzo38, I think your RULECARD idea is probably good but makes the system a lot less flexible
23:37:28 <Taneb> But I must go to sleep now, goodnight
23:37:32 <zzo38> Well, the programming language would have to be defined in a flexible way
23:38:42 <Taneb> Is such a flexible language deserving of being called a programming language?
23:39:11 <int-e> oerjan: yes that fixity of . did cross my mind
23:41:30 <zzo38> It does mean that whenever you add a new card, it will be necessary to recompile *everything*.
23:42:37 <oerjan> int-e: did you call your variable n? if so i predict byte-for-byte equality hth
23:42:51 <int-e> oerjan: I did not.
23:43:09 <int-e> for some reason x won this time
23:43:34 <zzo38> However, you usually would not have to modify the rules; you would always have to recompile them (as well as recompile all existing cards) if you are adding or changing anything. If you are only deleting a card, you may be able to get away without recompiling everything right away.
23:49:25 <int-e> oerjan: there's one other thing I could vary but I did choose the more plausible option
23:50:10 <int-e> (there are two ways of shortening a:b:[] by one character)
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00:01:30 <oerjan> my first version had a freestanding (a:) section but i got better
00:02:30 <Lilax> Create their own language
00:02:46 <Lilax> Like it doesn't have to be an alt of some other language
00:02:52 <Lilax> But just a new one
00:03:05 <int-e> it's easy. you take brainfuck and change the syn... *looks around* *runs*
00:03:12 <zzo38> Lilax: There is many possible ways
00:03:29 * oerjan throws the saucepan after int-e and hits with a *CLANG* ===\__/
00:03:56 <Lilax> Not taking a language and changing it
00:04:09 <oerjan> Lilax: i think a good first step is to have _one_ really novel idea to base it around. that's also a hard part.
00:04:38 <Lilax> Well, Ill first need to study up
00:05:06 <Lilax> But I guess I can make a new one -3-
00:07:03 <Lilax> I uh.. Got really hyper and made an entire turkey dinner today
00:07:24 <Lilax> And idk what to do with all this food
00:10:56 <oerjan> my mom would have divided it up and stored in the freezer
00:11:05 <oerjan> she was a practical woman
00:13:07 <Lilax> Why would someone send this to me
00:13:49 <int-e> was it because they were inspired by smalltalk?
00:13:50 <oerjan> looks like weird syntax
00:14:03 <int-e> looks like a zero-argument method with empty body.
00:16:03 <MDude> I would think to make a language it'd help to learn how it's going to be interpreted or compiled and executed.
00:17:00 <MDude> Or how such things are done for whatever you want to run the language you want to make.
00:18:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘|’
00:19:09 <Lilax> thanks for the hint!
00:20:48 <Lilax> range(1, 1000) .filter(|&x| x % 2 == 0) .filter(|&x| x % 3 == 0) .take(5) .collect::<Vec<i32>>();
00:20:55 <int-e> > forM [0..7] $ \i -> shows (2^i) " "
00:20:57 <lambdabot> ["12481361","12481362","12481368","1248136 ","12481341","12481342","12481348...
00:21:50 <int-e> > do x <- [0..7]; shows (2^i) " "
00:22:02 <int-e> > do x <- [0..7]; shows (2^x) " "
00:22:09 <Lilax> does it out put the same without " "
00:22:22 <int-e> > do x <- [0..7]; shows (2^x) ":"
00:22:57 <Lilax> > forM [0..7] $ \i -> shows (2^i)
00:23:30 <Lilax> Fuck I keep doing the thing you told me not to do ._.
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00:23:52 <int-e> nah, shows n returns a function that prepends the string representation of n to a string.
00:24:07 -!- augur has joined.
00:25:05 <int-e> > show 64 -- show n = shows n ""
00:25:22 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:25:39 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:02 <int-e> > take 5 [x | x <- [1..1000], x `mod` 3 == 0]
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00:38:35 <Lilax> from my close study of a computer science student I have learned that 5% of it is writing code and 95% of it wondering why they wrote that
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00:45:07 <int-e> I'm missing a planning phase (where one thinks about where to even begin coding) in those numbers.
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01:22:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘unicode’Not in scope: ‘μ’
01:23:03 <Lilax> I'm like very forgetful
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01:26:21 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. can I ask you a riichiquestion?
01:29:39 <boily> fungot: maybe I can ask you the riichiquestion?
01:29:40 <fungot> boily: dream or not, for no such amount was needed to keep a lone old man and woman took pleasure in trapping and slaying every cat which came near to their fnord for i recalled that in its experimental stage it had sputtered and purred when in action. in reply to questions hart said he though the escaping truck had headed up fnord avenue, though he knew not why.
01:29:45 <zzo38> boily: What question?
01:30:22 <boily> we were arguing if oya should remain oya even if she's noten during South.
01:31:03 <boily> apparently, it's not an official ruling, and many people always dislodge oya, regardless of the current hanchan.
01:31:13 <zzo38> Both ways are played. I prefer that during south round (and only during south round), oya always remains oya after an exhausive draw even if noten.
01:31:38 <zzo38> However, you can decide what variant you want to play by.
01:32:00 <boily> okay, so it's not just a club fantasy.
01:32:23 <boily> I like it when we can slowly suck oya's points away :D
01:34:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41701&oldid=41651 * 99.127.206.54 * (+4402)
01:34:44 <Lilax> Today On how its made
01:34:52 <Lilax> The sins of mankind
01:36:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41702&oldid=41701 * 99.127.206.54 * (+2) /* Chicken */
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01:55:13 <HackEgo> [U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK]
02:00:06 <HackEgo> [U+0589 ARMENIAN FULL STOP]
02:00:49 <int-e> > let a ; b = b - a ; 3 = 4 ; x = 6 ; 48 ; 3 = 1 ; 2 ; 3 in x ; x ; x
02:04:27 <int-e> but there doesn't seem to be another code point whose glyph looks like an equality sign, besides the full width one: ＝
02:08:20 <boily> not even line or box drawings?
02:08:38 <int-e> > let _ ♛ _ = 42 in () ♛ []
02:09:38 <int-e> > let _ ⣿ _ = 42 in () -- what about Braille?
02:10:17 <boily> you could get creative with Braille.
02:10:40 <int-e> > let _ ㎓ _ = 23 in () ㎓ 42
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02:14:51 <int-e> 😱 could also make an excellent infix operator
02:15:18 <HackEgo> U+1F631 FACE SCREAMING IN FEAR \ UTF-8: f0 9f 98 b1 UTF-16BE: d83dde31 Decimal: 😱 \ 😱 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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02:17:46 <boily> int-e: http://imgur.com/fs6dAhF
02:17:53 <HackEgo> [U+A4FF LISU PUNCTUATION FULL STOP]
02:18:41 <int-e> boily: my terminal doesn't display it either, check http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2015-01-19.txt ?
02:20:07 <boily> one day, everything will be perfectly unicodified under the Great Physics Unification.
02:20:18 <int-e> boily: if that doesn't help, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/1F631.png
02:21:24 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a + а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а in text $ а + а + а + а
02:21:25 <lambdabot> No instance for (Text.Printf.PrintfType t1)
02:21:25 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t1’ is ambiguous
02:21:46 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a + а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а :: String in а + а + а + а
02:23:02 <HackEgo> [U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A]
02:24:17 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a ^ а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а :: String in а ^ а ^ а ^ а
02:25:31 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a 😱 а = printf "(%s 😱 %s)" a а :: String; infixr 9 😱 in а 😱 а 😱 а 😱 а
02:25:32 <lambdabot> "(a \128561 (a \128561 (a \128561 a)))"
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02:25:39 <int-e> > let а = show (a + a); a ^ а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а :: String in а ^ а ^ а ^ а
02:25:40 <lambdabot> "(((a + a + a + a) + a + a) + a + a)"
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02:27:34 <HackEgo> [U+1F000 MAHJONG TILE EAST WIND]
02:28:33 <HackEgo> U+1F434 HORSE FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 b4 UTF-16BE: d83ddc34 Decimal: 🐴 \ 🐴 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:28:51 <int-e> (I have no font for that one, apparently)
02:30:57 <boily> ah! I can see the mahjong tile!
02:31:09 <boily> (hmm... I think I have a new feature for metasepia...)
02:31:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shuffle: not found
02:31:47 <int-e> hmm, which bot had the perfect shuffle?
02:34:49 <int-e> > foldr ((.reverse).(:)) [] "🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂽🂾🃁🃂🃃🃄🃅🃆🃇🃈🃉🃊🃋🃍🃎🃑🃒🃓🃔🃕🃖🃗🃘🃙🃚🃛🃝🃞"
02:34:50 <lambdabot> "\127137\127139\127141\127143\127145\127147\127150\127154\127156\127158\1271...
02:35:06 <int-e> > text $ foldr ((.reverse).(:)) [] "🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂽🂾"
02:35:20 <int-e> > text $ foldr ((.reverse).(:)) [] "🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂽🂾🃁🃂🃃🃄🃅🃆🃇🃈🃉🃊🃋🃍🃎🃑🃒🃓🃔🃕🃖🃗🃘🃙🃚🃛🃝🃞"
02:35:21 <lambdabot> 🂡🂣🂥🂧🂩🂫🂮🂲🂴🂶🂸🂺🂽🃁🃃🃅🃇🃉🃋🃎🃒🃔🃖🃘🃚🃝🃞🃛🃙🃗🃕🃓🃑🃍🃊🃈🃆🃄🃂🂾🂻🂹🂷🂵🂳🂱🂭🂪🂨🂦🂤🂢
02:38:18 <HackEgo> [U+2F14 KANGXI RADICAL SPOON]
02:38:33 <int-e> of course. obviously.
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03:35:04 <oerjan> <Lilax> 'I thought I had some blue cheese in my fridge, but to my disappointment it was just normal cheese accelerating towards me' <-- now i'm imagining some alien storage device that works by keeping perishables in a strong gravitational field
03:35:22 <oerjan> and which does this when you take things out
03:36:14 <oerjan> except i think it would have to be redshifted while actually slowed down
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03:41:55 <oerjan> The Fridges of Alpha Centauri, coming far too soon to a cinema near you
03:42:59 <oerjan> they may have got a head start
03:43:11 <oerjan> but the light has just been seen
03:43:58 <AndoDaan> I hate the fact that all I can see is the past.
03:44:34 <oerjan> also their cheesy "i'm blue da ba dee" broadcasts
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03:45:20 <AndoDaan> Question: somewhere on the wiki there was a page that had a list of esolang interpreters for other esolanguages. Even mentioning the longest chain. Does anyone remember where that page is?
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03:46:11 <AndoDaan> Now that freaking song in my head again.
03:46:51 <oerjan> i can replace the song with something swedish hth
03:47:07 <oerjan> (luckily boily isn't here to tell you it's a trap)
03:47:41 <AndoDaan> Except any of those songs with nonsense lyrics.
03:48:00 <AndoDaan> (hope that doesn't exclude all of them)
03:48:03 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hccf-8BYaDg hth
03:48:14 <oerjan> it's not _technically_ nonsense
03:51:28 <AndoDaan> No idea what they're sing... talking about, but it's unsettling.
03:52:00 <oerjan> it's about a perpetuum mobile/rube goldberg device
03:53:00 * oerjan thinks an evil cackle is in order
03:53:47 <AndoDaan> Even you can't like that, right?
03:54:02 <AndoDaan> (I say 'even you', but I don't really know your taste)
03:54:26 <oerjan> of course i am nostalgic about it, since i was a teen when it was a hit
03:54:57 <oerjan> or possibly even younger
03:55:54 <Sgeo> Beginning sounds a bit like some Quantum Conundrum music
03:55:56 <oerjan> of course it helps if you understand the hilarious lyrics
03:56:50 <Lilax> That's not a cackle oerjan
03:56:56 <Lilax> that's an evil laugh
03:57:03 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ILKlb1Pa8
03:57:36 <Sgeo> oerjan: you ain't my brother
03:58:11 <oerjan> wait i forgot to tell i'm eating pizza. it's traditional.
03:58:48 * Sgeo may have been eating pizza 5 nights a week >.>
03:59:26 <Lilax> You lucky lil shit
03:59:35 <Lilax> I haven't had pizza in years
04:00:25 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xHK0m5hVyY
04:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41703&oldid=40561 * 188.188.90.222 * (+541) /* Main table */ Added MNNBFSL's contributions
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04:39:06 <shachaf> Sgeo: did you see http://play.prismata.net/?r=g5+eg-e95rs
04:50:40 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:50:54 <Sgeo> Bear in mind while I might understand the basic mechanics of Prismata, I have no idea on strategy, as has been proven to you twice
04:54:29 <Sgeo> For some reason I got confused as to whose turn it was. Diidn't occur to me that Eiko could actually do anything
04:55:26 <Sgeo> Nerf Cluster Bolt by making it cost 1gold?
04:55:35 <Sgeo> (+4green still)
04:56:07 <shachaf> I don't know that it's actually that much of a problematic unit.
04:56:28 <shachaf> But you're welcome to try that strategy in a game against me and see what happens.
04:56:32 <shachaf> (I have no idea what I'd do.)
05:06:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: We should play some Prismata! It'll be great.
05:07:06 <Sgeo> I should play more against Master Bot
05:07:14 <Sgeo> So that I can have some semblance of a clue
05:07:17 <shachaf> No reason to play against any other bot.
05:07:48 <shachaf> There's a demo at http://play.prismata.net/?demo
05:08:09 <shachaf> And it's not impossible to get hold of alpha keys.
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05:09:10 <AndoDaan> I mostly muck around on hearthstone, but I've been looking for something new lately.
05:10:12 <shachaf> Prismata has some interesting ideas.
05:11:29 <HackEgo> slist [S]: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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05:51:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: prismata tip: press ` to get a button that turns on superpower mode
05:51:06 <shachaf> your superpower is information
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06:03:23 * oerjan concludes that the longest esointerpreter chains haven't changed since last he checked
06:07:53 <Sgeo> There is a war in my throat, between stomach acid and not-stomach-acid
06:08:07 <Sgeo> Well, below throat I guess
06:08:18 <shachaf> may the acid from your not-stomach win
06:09:43 <Lilax> stomach acid shouldn't hurt in the esophogus
06:09:53 <Lilax> or lower areas near the stomach
06:10:02 <Sgeo> Lilax: in that case, what's heartburn?
06:10:27 <Lilax> That's near the top where your mouth is
06:10:42 <Sgeo> Well, it feels bad in my chest
06:11:09 <Lilax> Eating anything weird lately?
06:11:26 <Sgeo> Pizza 5 nights a week? Also, GERD diagnosis + meds that don't seem to be helping
06:11:57 <Lilax> Greasy foods cause stomach acid production to sky rocket
06:13:05 <Lilax> Since there isn't any feeling to pre regurgatation you probably puked a little in your sleep and swallowed it back down and now you have a peice of acidy food bit stuck in there
06:13:41 <Lilax> And or Orange juice / pinnaple juice it should disolve whatevers in there
06:13:42 <oerjan> just drink a strong base hth
06:14:17 <Lilax> I have a medical class and Coincidentaly we are talking about effects of grease on the stomach
06:14:33 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i refuse to take responsibility if Sgeo is actually stupid enough to follow my advice)
06:14:42 <Lilax> Its good in small ammounts; But a whole pizza every week
06:14:58 <Lilax> Eat some fruit and Then some Steak and such
06:15:16 <Lilax> Also glucose Have some of dat
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06:16:03 <Lilax> Ye you go drink teh waters
06:16:12 <oerjan> hm maybe i should try buying apples again. i stopped buying them in the autumn because the norwegian ones got in season and sheesh how can a blood red apple be _that_ sour?
06:18:45 <Lilax> uh red apples are sour cuz they are in the inbetween stages
06:19:01 <Lilax> A nice Redish yellow green apple is sweet and amazing
06:19:11 <oerjan> ...i'm pretty sure red apples are the final stage?
06:19:17 <oerjan> before it starts rotting
06:19:21 <Lilax> Different aplle types
06:20:59 <shachaf> oerjan: aren't apples supposed to be sour twh
06:21:03 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFukyIIM1XI
06:21:12 <oerjan> shachaf: not in my opinion
06:21:34 <Lilax> Sour apples are good to wake you up
06:21:50 <Lilax> But I need sweet apples TO LIVE
06:24:22 <oerjan> ok that version was too long even for me
06:25:05 <shachaf> Lilax: that's sour cereal hth
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06:27:17 <Sgeo|web> My phone fell on my keyboard. Windows bluescreened.
06:27:36 <shachaf> Taneb: did you go to the prelease or whatever it was?
06:28:09 <Sgeo|web> oerjan: I think I will swallow a base, thank
06:28:44 <oerjan> I MY GOT I KILLED SGEO
06:29:13 <oerjan> my fingers are speaking a different language than me
06:31:00 <Sgeo|web> Also, tomorrow. Unless 7-Eleven has tums or generic
06:31:42 <oerjan> hm calcium carbonate yeah that's a base
06:32:52 <Sgeo|web> I do want to speak with a pharmacist to check that it won't interact with anything
06:33:07 <Sgeo|web> In the meantime... attempt to sleep with heartburn? :/
06:35:32 <Sgeo|web> Apparently nighttime heartburn is dangerous, in a long-term sense
06:36:45 <Sgeo|web> I'm on prescription meds for this, why aren't they working :(
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06:41:11 <Lilax> His phone fell on his key board and windows blue screened?!
06:41:22 <Lilax> Didn't windows remove the blue screen thing
06:41:43 <Lilax> you have to go it regedit to Change it so it can blue screen again
06:43:02 <Sgeo> Blue screen looks different
06:43:52 <Lilax> To disolve any acidic residue in esophogus
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06:55:48 * Sgeo has been drinking cold water all day
06:56:04 <Sgeo> Not sure I have any utensils suitable for hot water
06:57:54 <Lilax> you dont have running hot water?!
06:58:06 * Lilax mails Sgeo hot water
07:00:30 <Sgeo> I don't have anything other than my hands I would feel comfortable drinking it from
07:00:38 <Sgeo> For cold water, have an old plastic water bottle
07:03:51 <oerjan> i see young people these days don't bother with those old-fashioned "cups"
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07:06:14 <Sgeo> Would hot water even actually work?
07:06:18 <Sgeo> It sounds a bit folklorish
07:27:42 <Lilax> just not boiling water ok sgeo
07:30:37 <shachaf> does anyone here other than Sgeo play prismata? perhaps it's not the right channel for it
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07:38:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: in http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt s/at least one not having cover, /at most one not having covering, / ?
07:41:42 <zzo38> Thank you I fixed it. (I also reworded it a bit more too in order to make it clear.)
07:42:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does that interact with banding though?
07:42:29 <zzo38> I should probably clarify that too.
07:43:07 <zzo38> Well, it seems clear to me how it interacts with banding at least.
07:43:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: but at this point, if you have both forming bands AND damage order AND damage distribution stuff in the ability, I don't see what it gains over banding. in fact, banding seems _simpler_.
07:44:20 <b_jonas> so I preferred when it didn't allow you to form bands
07:45:26 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could make a similar ability that somehow works by redirecting damage to it from another creature in combat.
07:45:37 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure that could work well
07:46:06 <zzo38> It doesn't allow you to form bands; it is similar but for blocking. (Bands won't do much for blocking, but here it does something. It could be changed of course, such as by redirection or whatever)
07:51:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: if an attacking or blocking creature of an opponent assigns damage to both a creature with banding and one with covering (which may be the same creature or different ones), what are the requirements for how I have to distribute the damage to my creatures?
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07:51:24 <zzo38> You have to distribute all of it to one with covering.
07:52:48 <zzo38> However, because you have banding, you can choose which one with covering if you have more than one.
07:53:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: you should mention this in the description somewhere, because it's not clear to me.
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07:54:11 <b_jonas> I mean, why couldn't I just assing damage to the non-covering creatures, as the banding lets me ignore the damage order anyway?
07:54:30 <zzo38> Yes, I should clarify that.
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07:57:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: Do these blocking groups work like bands in that the "when becomes blocked by" and "when blocks" triggered abilities don't trigger/
07:57:35 <b_jonas> Or, um, I'm not really sure how banding works either really.
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07:57:59 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
07:59:30 <shachaf> I'm not sure either. Must I learn?
07:59:32 <b_jonas> Yes, probably. Though those triggers are mostly green and banding is mostly white, so it comes up only if I build a green-white deck.
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08:03:14 <b_jonas> About that, is it just me, or have wotc really stopped printing creatures with simple abilities that give a p/t bonus triggered when the creature is (blocking | blocking more than one creature | becomes blocked | attacking), since about 10th ed?
08:03:46 <b_jonas> Giant Badger is such a creature fro example
08:04:54 <b_jonas> oh, there is one in 10th Ed too, so I'm wrong: Elvish Berserker
08:05:05 <shachaf> I thought there was at least one in RTR?
08:06:28 <shachaf> Maybe I'm thinking of Fortress Cyclops
08:06:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno. TSP has multiple creatures with flanking, which is somewhat similar
08:08:15 <b_jonas> ah, Fortress Cyclops, nice
08:09:27 <shachaf> I guess Guardian of the Gateless also counts.
08:09:39 <shachaf> Maybe it's not a "simple ability".
08:09:59 <shachaf> I guess that's less simple too.
08:11:32 <zzo38> As far as I can understand, the "when becomes blocked by" and "when blocks" triggered abilities will trigger, both for banding and for covering; I don't see why either would prevent it.
08:11:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, Guardian of the Gateless rewards you for multi-blocking, that's like Lairwatch Giant
08:12:13 <b_jonas> (Rightousness doesn't count of course)
08:13:18 <zzo38> Therefore it is possible that a card with covering might be able to block a card that it wouldn't ordinarily be able to block (as long as you have another card that can block it), just as it is possible for a card with banding to be blocked by something that wouldn't ordinarily be able to block it.
08:14:52 <zzo38> Banding is described in rule 702.21.
08:19:16 <zzo38> There are times when "Brainwash" is much better than "Oppressive Rays", "Arrest", or "Guard Duty".
08:20:09 <APic> There are Times for every Action.
08:20:11 <zzo38> Especially when putting it on your own card.
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08:22:30 <zzo38> It allows you to choose not to attack even if you would otherwise be forced to attack, and it allows you to use mana abilities while declaring attackers. Although, if you are playing blue, you might prefer War Tax (assuming you happen to get that card in your card pool).
08:23:24 <zzo38> War Tax is good because you can use one card on both yourself and on your opponent, instead of requiring two cards.
08:30:42 <Sgeo> "There's an increased risk of choking on refluxed stomach contents.
08:30:43 <Sgeo> If refluxed acid is in the throat and mouth, a GERD sufferer can inhale this into their lungs. Once in the lungs, it can cause a GERD sufferer to cough and choke on this aspirated material. The acid can also cause the same damage to the lungs as it can cause when refluxed into the esophagus."
08:30:45 <Sgeo> asdjflasfhjasklasdf
08:35:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: if I have a creature with covering and you resolve Master Warcraft, can you make my creatures form covering groups for blocking?
08:35:54 <Sgeo> Scared to sleep now
08:38:43 <zzo38> The answer is the same as whether or not you are allowed to make the attackers to form banding groups. I guess so, but I don't know so I will try to look it up and/or ask elsewhere and/or whatever.
08:39:13 <zzo38> Or maybe that isn't right.
08:40:20 <b_jonas> yes, it might not be the same, because Master Warcraft doesn't let you choose what player or planeswalker a creature attacks
08:40:24 <zzo38> OK so it doesn't allow you to decide bands; the active player still does that.
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08:41:02 <zzo38> But apparently it allows you to make all choices involved for blocking, so in that case yes you can decide covering groups.
08:46:01 <b_jonas> I don't know how Master Warcraft even interacts with costs for attacking or blocking
08:49:10 <b_jonas> I guess I should find out because Master Warcraft is both a cool card and has nice art
08:49:15 <zzo38> I was also wondering about that, and other stuff about Master Warcraft.
08:49:28 <b_jonas> however, costs for attacking or blocking aren't that common
08:55:50 <zzo38> My guess is that for attacking at least, if it is your opponent's turn, you can choose which creatures attack but then the active player (your opponent) can decide how to pay the costs (and if they include mana, which mana abilities to use and in what order); if they do it wrong it is rolled back and you have to try again; you can choose the same attackers and they have to do it properly this time; if that is not possible you have to choose differe
08:56:01 <zzo38> For blocking it is less clear.
08:57:02 <zzo38> What do you think?
08:58:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. It's possible that Master Warcraft can force me to sac islands to attack with a Leviathan if I have two islands, but I don't thikn it can force me to activate mana abilities.
08:59:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: on a different note, have you succeeded downloading the Khans set faq? because I tried again and the website just doesn't serve it.
09:00:51 <shachaf> b_jonas: Didn't I send you a working link the other day?
09:00:57 <shachaf> Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
09:01:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: I didn't notice the link
09:01:18 <shachaf> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/release-notes-2014-09-18
09:01:30 <shachaf> The set faq is now called the release notes, you said.
09:01:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: for Fate, it's certaonly called release notes
09:02:08 <shachaf> Is this thing not a set faq?
09:02:35 <b_jonas> yes, that seems to be the correct link, and I think it's the same, but it's hard to be sure
09:03:08 <b_jonas> I really hope there isn't a separate release notes and set faq
09:03:31 <b_jonas> (except maybe for un-sets)
09:03:47 <shachaf> http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/faq/jou is also called "release notes"
09:17:36 <shachaf> Does () in Haskell correspond to the Sierpiński space?
09:18:49 <zzo38> I don't know what that is but I can try to look in Wikipedia
09:19:33 <zzo38> I still don't know the answer.
09:20:12 <zzo38> Also, if you can only decide what a card blocks and absolutely nothing else, then you cannot decide covering groups either.
09:20:47 <Jafet> The FSF wants... your old car http://www.fsf.org/associate/car
09:21:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: can't you also decide on which side of the Raging River you're trying to block?
09:21:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know? Ask that too on other IRC
09:22:47 <shachaf> zzo38: It's a topological space with two points 0 and 1 where only {1} is open.
09:23:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I can see that! It doesn't tell me if () in Haskell is correspond to the Sierpiski space.
09:24:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, if I give you a value x :: (), you can observe that x is () but you can't observe that x is _|_
09:24:38 <shachaf> And it's the same way for 1 and 0
09:25:09 <zzo38> Ah, yes I can understand you, but I don't know a lot about topological spaces.
09:25:48 <shachaf> I was looking at http://www.paultaylor.eu/ASD/sobsc.pdf
09:28:07 <oerjan> shachaf: a finite partial order is also a topological space, and i think the CPO of () gives that topological space
09:29:34 <shachaf> (and why partial rather than pre? are you talking about the alexandrov topology or something else?)
09:30:04 <oerjan> it's the other way around, a finite topological space is a partial (pre-)order
09:31:06 <shachaf> it's only a partial order if all the points are topologically distinguishable
09:31:20 <oerjan> i.e. T0 separation axiom
09:31:39 <oerjan> and if it's T1 it's fully discrete
09:32:01 <shachaf> not a lot of wiggle room :'(
09:32:18 <shachaf> how much do order-theory/topology concepts translate back and forth?
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09:33:13 <oerjan> hm i think monotonicity may be the same as continuity
09:33:13 <shachaf> e.g. inf/sup, galois connection, total order
09:33:26 <shachaf> yes, that's the idea of this isomorphism
09:33:54 <shachaf> a monotonic function between preorders is a continuous function between their alexandrov spaces
09:34:23 <shachaf> (and vice versa if your space is alexandrov)
09:34:31 <shachaf> but do all these other concepts translate?
09:35:01 <shachaf> i suspect that in a sense most of topology isn't interesting in the finite cases
09:35:15 <shachaf> certainly things like compactness are only interesting in the infinite case
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09:37:07 <oerjan> compactness is a kind of co-discreteness (see harmonic analysis)
09:37:23 <oerjan> and if you're both compact and discrete, you're finite
09:37:27 <shachaf> what should i read in order to understand that statement twh
09:38:05 <oerjan> the dual group of the integers is the unit circle
09:38:15 <oerjan> the first discrete, the second compact
09:38:23 <shachaf> i heard that compactness is co-overtness hth
09:38:44 <shachaf> that was a bad use of "hth"
09:39:18 * oerjan doesn't know about overtness
09:39:39 <shachaf> http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/overt%20space
09:39:53 <shachaf> i guess you're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontryagin_duality ?
09:40:36 <b_jonas> hmm, let's set up a combo to infinite mindslave this channel and take it over
09:41:10 <shachaf> but how would you topologically describe properties like "total order" and "supremum"
09:41:14 <b_jonas> I'll grab my Pemmin's Aura
09:41:23 <shachaf> i guess supremum would only be only unique in a T0 space
09:42:35 <oerjan> total order means that given any two points, one is in the closure of the other?
09:44:24 <shachaf> i guess you run into trouble soon enough because you don't have a notion of duality in topology in general?
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09:51:37 <shachaf> what about translating things the other way
09:51:59 <shachaf> i guess you run into trouble because finite topologies are usually boring
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09:54:09 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway you have the thing where an inhabitant of (X -> S) corresponds to an open subset of X, right?
09:54:36 <shachaf> is there a corresponding thing in haskell with (X -> ())?
09:55:21 <oerjan> well that would be recursive subset, wouldn't it
09:55:38 <oerjan> recursively enumerable
09:55:47 <shachaf> recursively enumerable, sure
09:55:58 <oerjan> hm except that might not be right if X isn't enumerable to start with
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10:00:20 <elliott> finite x = length x `seq` ()?
10:04:26 <shachaf> i guess it makes sense that monotonic functions : X -> {0,1} would correspond to upper sets in X
10:10:24 <shachaf> hm, how many functions :: Bool -> () are there?
10:11:24 <elliott> non-strict: 3; strict: 3^2 = 9; total: 12
10:13:04 <oerjan> you know, i fear we may be succeeding in delaying GHC 7.10 http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:14
10:14:32 <shachaf> funny that the bug has been around for 6 weeks and no one noticed
10:16:08 <elliott> | A_|_ -> B_|_ | = | B_|_ | + (| B_|_ | ^ |A|), I guess.
10:16:19 <elliott> (A and B being flat/discrete/whatever)
10:17:24 <elliott> wait, I was thinking Bool -> Bool
10:17:47 <elliott> it's 6. non-strict: 2; strict: 2^2 = 4
10:18:35 <shachaf> isn't there only one non-strict one?
10:20:32 <int-e> oerjan: Well, it's a serious type system bug, now that SPJ is aware of it he will want to see it fixed (probably by himself but since typeable is involved it may split up into several subtasks) :)
10:22:50 <shachaf> i only count 5 functions :: Bool -> ()
10:23:12 <elliott> non-strict: f _ = undefined; f _ = ()... oh, that first one is strict.
10:23:26 <elliott> okay, | A_|_ -> B_|_ | = |B| + (1 + |B|)^|A|
10:25:06 <int-e> Oh, A_|_ is A_\bot... hard to read.
10:31:45 <shachaf> wait, so what's the topology for Bool
10:32:03 * shachaf should probably go to sleep
10:35:07 <shachaf> {} {⊥,F,T} {F} {T} {F,T}, i suppose
10:53:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, now try some manifest+cytoshape questions
10:53:51 <mroman> can't you do case c of { };?
10:54:21 <mroman> case c of {} works though
11:03:36 <mroman> http://codepad.org/xMESZWvA
11:05:40 <mroman> which neatly compiles to http://codepad.org/soIMKlDB
11:10:51 <mroman> (The language itself dosen't actually specify what operators do)
11:11:08 <mroman> + is just translated to a call to "bOp"++ ord op
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11:52:09 <oerjan> http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0605779 fancy
11:53:00 <oerjan> darn that paper is long
11:59:30 <int-e> "Conway had even pored over [Tarski's proof] at one time or another without achieving enlightenment."
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14:54:09 <HackEgo> helix__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:07:24 <Jafet> `` python -c 'print 2^200'
15:08:32 <vanila> mroman, owhats that ccompiler?
15:08:47 <lambdabot> 1606938044258990275541962092341162602522202993782792835301376
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15:09:17 <Jafet> What is that big number, did haskell get corrupted
15:09:48 <int-e> Jafet: it embraces big integers, to better represent its net worth
15:12:39 <Jafet> That's a lie, it's datatypes are free
15:13:25 <vanila> initially this was amusing but at this point it's terminal
15:13:41 <helix__> I'm writing my final paper about esoteric programming languages so I'm looking for different sources of information
15:13:56 <vanila> helix__, have you seen the esowiki
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15:14:20 <oerjan> * priority: high => highest
15:14:34 <oerjan> THERE IS NO REASON FOR PANIC
15:14:40 <Jafet> Speaking of corruption in haskell
15:14:54 <oerjan> Jafet: you're following the trac too?
15:14:56 <int-e> oerjan: we need to escalate the bug further!!!!!!1
15:15:02 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 10):
15:15:13 <b_jonas> um, how do I reverse a string?
15:15:55 <int-e> b_jonas: insert a right-to-left mark?
15:16:22 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
15:16:34 <oerjan> helix__: pretty sure it's esolangs.org
15:18:13 <int-e> !blsq "since"<-<-<-
15:18:30 <mroman> vanila: I made up some simple stack based programming language and writing a compiler from that language to haskell
15:18:56 <mroman> (and the compiler is written in haskell, but I plan to rewrite the compiler in the stack based programming language itself so I have a self-hosting compiler)
15:20:31 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 4 1 2 0
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15:26:58 <mroman> !blsq "since"<-{"since"jFi}m[
15:27:05 <mroman> !blsq "since"<>{"since"jFi}m[
15:27:11 <mroman> !blsq "since"><{"since"jFi}m[
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15:27:37 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4 2 3 0 1
15:27:45 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"Fi}m[
15:27:45 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:27:50 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"qjFi}m[
15:27:51 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:27:53 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"QjFi}m[
15:27:54 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:27:56 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"JjFi}m[
15:27:56 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:28:02 <b_jonas> I'm pressing random buttons
15:28:07 <mroman> !blsq "since"><{"since"jFi}m[
15:28:29 <mroman> !blsq "since"<>{"since"jFi}m[
15:28:30 <b_jonas> that's hwy it doesn't work
15:28:54 <mroman> !blsq "since"JPp<>{"since"jFi}m[
15:29:00 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"{"since"<>Fi}m[
15:29:00 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:29:02 <mroman> !blsq "since"JPp<>{pPjFi}m[
15:29:05 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"{"since"<>jFi}m[
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15:32:40 <mroman> !blsq "abcdefgh"JPp<>{pPjFi}m[
15:32:45 <mroman> !blsq "abcdefgh"JPp<>{pPjFi}m[BS
15:33:42 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?<>
15:33:42 <blsqbot> | "sromlkigfdcbaYVOMKJHGEBA975430/"
15:34:09 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?><{%s?jFi}m[
15:34:09 <blsqbot> | {29 22 11 20 2 18 19 4 1 10 12 13 3 24 17 21 27 23 15 9 0 6 5 26 8 30 14 28 25 16 7}
15:34:11 <int-e> oerjan: well look at that, a GG comic
15:34:24 <int-e> oerjan: right back off track, where we left
15:34:39 <b_jonas> [ /:s=.'cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k'
15:34:40 <j-bot> b_jonas: 29 22 11 20 2 18 19 4 1 10 12 13 3 24 17 21 27 23 15 9 0 6 5 26 8 30 14 28 25 16 7
15:34:52 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?{%s?><jFi}m[
15:34:53 <blsqbot> | {20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25}
15:35:03 <b_jonas> [ /:/:s=.'cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k'
15:35:03 <j-bot> b_jonas: 20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25
15:35:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 29 22 11 20 2 18 19 4 1 10 12 13 3 24 17 21 27 23 15 9 0 6 5 26 8 30 14 28 25 16 7
15:36:02 <b_jonas> [ 20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25 -: /:/:s
15:36:41 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?L[
15:37:56 <b_jonas> mroman: because I don't really know how burlesque works
15:38:11 <b_jonas> I can easily make mistakes in blsq code
15:38:26 <FireFly> And they say J looks like line noise
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15:39:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
15:39:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
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15:40:36 <mroman> !blsq %s="since"%s?m{%s?><jFi}
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15:45:02 <oerjan> int-e: i think off track is pretty correct for that train
15:47:14 <b_jonas> mroman: you haven't modified blsq since last time, when I complained about wanting an assignment statement that has the variable name in the command but pops the value from the stack, right?
15:51:55 <mroman> I haven't touched it for a long time.
15:52:01 <b_jonas> what were the shortcuts for storing and loading variable 0?
15:52:28 <mroman> g<digit> for loading and s<digit> for storing
15:52:37 <mroman> i.e s3 and g3 or s0 and g0
15:52:44 <b_jonas> !blsq "cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"s0g0{g0?><jFi}m[
15:52:44 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:52:52 <b_jonas> !blsq "cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"s0g0{g0><jFi}m[
15:52:52 <blsqbot> | {20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25}
15:53:26 <b_jonas> !blsq "cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"s0g0){g0><jFi}
15:53:27 <blsqbot> | {BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'c BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'B BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi '5 BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'J BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'A BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'f BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'd BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 's BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'i BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'b BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'E Bl
15:54:08 <mroman> ) only works for a single "Token"
15:54:18 <mroman> ){9} is the same thing as { {9} }m[
15:54:35 <mroman> (which results in {9} being inserted between two elements)
15:54:41 <blsqbot> | {9 1 9 2 9 3 9 4 9 5 9 6 9 7 9 8 9 9 9 10}
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16:14:43 <mroman> also I'm not going to touch Burlesque ever again
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16:16:47 <int-e> mroman: how often has this resolution failed to work out so far?
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16:19:35 <mroman> int-e: what resolution?
16:19:51 <int-e> mroman: the one to not touch Burlesque ever again
16:20:30 <int-e> interesting, must be a new thing then *ducks*
16:20:45 <mroman> the chance of me committing suicide is WAY higher than me touching Burlesque ever again
16:20:59 <b_jonas> int-e: never as in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html
16:21:10 <mroman> I was planning on creating a successor for Burlesque once
16:21:22 <mroman> I guess you can go with "once".
16:21:57 <mroman> I'm sitting crying and anxious at my work desk right now anyway
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16:25:24 <mroman> That something is seriously broken.
16:26:18 <vanila> would you like to talk about it in PM?
16:30:23 <vanila> mroman, at any rate, I think everyone appreciatse having you here and I hope you feel better
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16:47:53 <Jander> mitchs suggested here to me :-)
16:49:44 <HackEgo> JaNdEr: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
16:50:51 <Jander> mitchs suggested that my efforts to build a Lego EV3 based Brainf*ck interpreter may go down well here :-)
16:51:13 <vanila> so you're building it with hardware?
16:51:41 <Jander> The program is on coloured paper tape and the I/O is done thro' an 8 bit register that is physical
16:51:56 <b_jonas> Jander: how about the data tape?
16:51:58 <Jander> The interpreter will be on the EV3 itself however.
16:52:37 <Jander> 8 colours on the paper tape - red/green/black/white/yellow/brown/blue/grey = < > - + , . [ ]
16:53:17 <Jander> To end the program there will need to be an extraneous ] however.
16:53:37 <Jander> That is kinda met if the tape runs out as it's grey blocks behind the tape :-)
16:53:54 <int-e> common implementer's trick
16:54:15 <b_jonas> Jander: why paper instead of colored lego bricks? is it easier to print?
16:54:22 <int-e> (read file, add ] at end, parse a ]-terminated block, and run)
16:54:23 <b_jonas> Jander: and where do you store the data tape?
16:55:42 <Jander> I don't have enough different coloured bricks :-) And I fancied building a paper tape reader.
16:56:13 <Jander> Are URLs okay in here ? I have a pic on G+ page.
16:56:35 <Jander> The memory is all internal, 256 bytes of 8 bit unsigned
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16:57:25 <Jander> https://plus.google.com/photos/113373535180413523278/albums/6105388692419944513?authkey=CL2uopH9jZOkEQ
16:58:13 <Jander> Strips of A4 paper cut to the right size. I have no tape spools in this build.
16:58:23 <Jander> Couldn't work out a clean/neat way of doing it.
16:58:24 <vanila> this is really cool :D
16:58:55 <Jander> The I/O bits are on top - the grey toggles. They are all set to 0 in the pic. Bit 7 bottom left, bit 0 top right.
16:59:25 <Jander> The arm on the tracks/rack is used to both sense the state for input and to push/pull them for output.
17:00:00 <Jander> I've still to implement [ and ], but that should be done tonight.
17:02:07 <Jander> Videos of the I/O in operation:
17:02:10 <Jander> https://plus.google.com/photos/113373535180413523278/albums/6103953155744183393?authkey=CL2wgq-Vq6TkhwE
17:04:16 <Jander> That's not BF running it btw - that was EV3 code doing the multiplication.
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17:20:39 <J_Arcane> I think I'm growing to hate Codewars.
17:29:09 <Jander> Right - I'll pop back tomorrow - hopefully with a working model if I get time this evening.
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17:31:26 <int-e> what's that, a web 2.0 version of sphere online judge?
17:34:00 <J_Arcane> int-e: It's in vaguely similar veins to that I suppose, to to HackerRank.
17:35:17 <J_Arcane> Sometimes though, the test cases and descriptions feel like working an actual job: none of them seem to agree...
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17:38:52 <J_Arcane> You get specs that say one thing, tests that say another, and of course, there's two tiers of tests, the latter of which you can't see and often include requirements not mentioned in the basic tests or the description at all.
17:40:08 <int-e> as you said, that sounds very realistic
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17:45:56 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: how does this do output?
17:46:13 <b_jonas> Jander: how does this do the output?
17:46:15 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: It doesn't; it handles things with tests instead.
17:53:47 <mitchs> b_jonas, Jander left, but for output the arm switches any bits that need to be switched and then a sound clip of "Okay" is played, then you need to press a button for the machine to continue processing (i think)
17:53:55 <mitchs> he explained it to me through PMs
18:12:27 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(-1,-1e-9999)
18:12:37 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(-1,1e-9999)
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18:12:54 <int-e> `perl -eprint 1e-9999==0
18:12:55 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(1e-9999,-1)
18:12:59 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(-1e-9999,-1)
18:13:23 <int-e> `perl -eprint atan2(-0.0,-1) # does that work?
18:14:11 <int-e> `perl -eprint atan2(-0,-1)
18:14:20 <b_jonas> int-e: atan2 has a branch cut there, so it uses the sign of the zero to decide which branch it falls in
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18:15:27 <int-e> b_jonas: "does that work" was meant in regard to perl's conformance to IEEE 754
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18:16:31 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know if these transcendent functions are covered by IEEE 745, but this is certainly in its spirit and it's the right answer
18:16:43 <int-e> (namely, is -0.0 actually the negative zero)
18:17:01 <b_jonas> int-e: it is because the - isn't part of the literal but a separate operator, just like in C
18:17:16 <int-e> b_jonas: underlying was the question why you'd express +0 as 1e-9999 and -0 as -1e-9999.
18:17:34 <b_jonas> `perl -e use O Deparse::; $_x=-0.0
18:17:35 <HackEgo> -e syntax OK \ $_x = -.0;
18:17:50 <b_jonas> `perl -e use O Deparse:: -p; $_x=-0.0
18:17:50 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, near "Deparse:: -p" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
18:17:58 <b_jonas> `perl -e use O Deparse=> -p; $_x=-0.0
18:17:59 <HackEgo> -e syntax OK \ $_x = -.0;
18:18:20 <b_jonas> oh, it's probably constant-folded before it gets to Deparse anyway
18:19:06 <int-e> > show (-0.0) -- curious
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18:30:24 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2("-0.0",-1)
18:30:26 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2("-1e-9999",-1)
18:30:31 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2("-0",-1)
18:33:57 <b_jonas> int-e: no good reason really. I'm just used to having to write infinity as 1e9999 in perl because perl is stupid and doesn't accept 1.0/0.0 on perl-builtin floats
18:34:53 <b_jonas> there should be a "use float;" pragma to use ieee float arithmetic on builtin numbers, similar to "use integer;", so you don't have to use blessed number objects just to do sane arithmetic
18:36:08 <HackEgo> Illegal division by zero at -e line 1.
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19:01:41 <Sgeo> The base (or salt?) I just chewed and swallowed succeeded in making my stomach feel weird, but not in making my esophagus feel better
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20:47:03 <oren> Most samesteads of every firststuff are unabiding.
20:49:24 <oren> dingdingding! "Uncleftish Beholding"
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20:55:33 <oren> I wonder if there is a language that enforces hungarian notation
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21:00:48 * Sgeo needs to learn how to actually read scientific studies
21:01:25 <Sgeo> Some pro-biotic company has apparently earned the favor of the LessWrong community. They're going to release a placebo-controlled study at the end of the month, I want to attempt to read it for myself to determine if it's garbage or not
21:03:09 * oren doesn't actually know what "pro-biotic" means.
21:03:36 <oren> holdon while i consult the great web of the knowings
21:03:57 -!- h0rsep0wer has joined.
21:06:10 <oren> pro biotics sounds like something that could work... but probably with side effects
21:14:25 <oren> http://www.xkcd.com/1471/
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21:27:32 <Sgeo> pikhq: http://hpmor.com/notes/progress-15-01-01/
21:27:53 <Sgeo> "General Biotics is a recent startup that is producing a pill-based probiotic that may help to replenish gut flora aka the intestinal microbiome. They intend to donate 10% of profits to effective charities. If you are currently unhappy with your digestive system, this is a quick way to test whether your gut microbes might be the cause. (If you don’t have a current pain point but are interested in trying general improvements, you might
21:27:53 <Sgeo> want to wait for v2.)"
21:32:57 <Gregor> Judging by the stream of information on it, I suspect that probiotics are 5% useful and 95% bullshit.
21:33:03 <Gregor> I might be exaggerating their utility.
21:34:02 <Sgeo> I don't think it's necessarily a good sign that GB was supposed to release a study on the 15th, but delayed it
21:35:09 * pikhq would imagine it's quite helpful for a small portion of the population, and has a lot of associated bullshit
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21:37:52 <Sgeo> Are there any tests that could be done on a person to determine whether or not it would be helpful?
21:37:55 <oren> "The first commercially sold dairy-based probiotic was Yakult," -clicks on link-> "Official claims state that the name is derived from jaĥurto (with a circumflex over the h), an Esperanto word for "yogurt"."
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21:41:33 <oren> So Yakult is an English rendering of a Japanese rendering of an Esperanto word
21:43:36 <J_Arcane> Yacolt is also a town in Washington, whose name allegedly means haunted place in the language of one of the local tribes.
21:44:40 * Sgeo hopes MealSquares aren't as wooish... although I don't think I would actually go ahead and replace all food with them
21:47:49 <J_Arcane> scientifically speaking my understanding is that save for certain very particular situations (such as having recently been subject to prolonged antibiotic treatments), probiotics are pretty much crap, and unlikely to make the slightest difference whatsoever.
21:49:16 <oren> This mealsquares thing looks good, although i don't see the need to put the orange juice in the square itself. Why not an oatmeal cookie-like thing with a glass of orange juice based drink on the side
21:50:33 <J_Arcane> I just ate a lot of unpasteurized yogurt when I last had need (spent a month on antibiotic treatments for pleuresy)
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21:53:00 <Sgeo> J_Arcane: was on antibiotics recently :/
21:53:20 <Gregor> "Months ago", biologically, is not recently.
21:53:29 <J_Arcane> I did find it took about a year or two for it to finally normalize.
21:53:40 * pikhq too was on antibiotics recently
21:53:50 <pikhq> By which I meant "ended regimin last week"
21:54:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: My initial impression is that MealSquares aren't *obvious* woo at least.
21:54:57 <J_Arcane> I still occasionally get horrifying gut cramps and other IBS fun, but it's got better over time
21:54:59 <pikhq> And are probably loads less terrible than Soylent.
21:55:06 <Gregor> The most woonatic thing about MealSquares is that they clearly market to nutters.
21:55:18 <Gregor> But the fact that they MARKET to nutters doesn't mean that they're not themselves sound.
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21:55:40 <Gregor> That being said, humans are the most picky of all animals when it comes to food, so MealSquares seems doomed to failure.
21:56:20 <pikhq> J_Arcane: Ugh, yeah, had levofloxacin like a year ago and my bowels aren't normal yet.
21:56:42 <J_Arcane> speaking as a former cook, all these weird soylent-like products horrify me. :P
21:56:53 <Gregor> http://www.nathanedwardwilliams.com/fun/monkeydiet.htm
21:57:14 <pikhq> (for those playing along at home, levofloxacin is one of those "hard core" antibiotics that actually has a demonstrable, absurd effect on intestinal flora)
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21:58:21 <Sgeo> Gregor: MealSquares sounds appealing in concept to me
21:58:28 <Sgeo> Does this make me a nutter for hating food?
21:58:44 <pikhq> J_Arcane: MealSquares appears to at least resemble food though, so there's at least that.
21:58:59 <Gregor> Sgeo: The FAQ is full of "this food contains no ingredients that nutters find offensive because they're stupid"
21:59:04 <J_Arcane> Like, I am quite certain it is possible to distill enough basic nutrients down into that form, but like ... why? At least get a good meal bar or something.
21:59:23 <Sgeo> Hmm, I remember the opposite
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21:59:46 <pikhq> J_Arcane: Some people consider eating and food decisions a chore.
22:00:07 <J_Arcane> Like, this: http://www.mealpack.com/
22:00:10 <Gregor> No gluten, no wheat, "99% lactose free" whatever that means (so, what, it's 1% pure lactose? That's a lot).
22:00:14 <Sgeo> Real people do have peanut allergies and celiac... although they say they're not necessarily suitable
22:00:27 * Sgeo is lactose intolerant, but they say they put lactaid in it
22:00:32 <olsner> pikhq: eating is fun, deciding and cooking is the chore
22:00:43 <Gregor> Real people have celiac, but 99% of people who seek out gluten-free food are dipshits.
22:00:53 <Gregor> (The other 1% have celiac)
22:01:21 <J_Arcane> Bear Valley bars are great, very thorough nutrition content, literally makes you feel like you've eaten a full-course meal, but still tastes something like actual food.
22:01:58 <Sgeo> "health benefits of non-gmo soy"?
22:02:51 * pikhq lulz at one thing here
22:03:15 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Well, it's still hippie shit, of course. But it's pretty good despite.
22:03:37 <pikhq> MealSquares are being made of "whole foods". That is to say, they are trying really hard to avoid anything that's not derived from a plant or animal.
22:03:38 <J_Arcane> (it's also a tiny company who've been around for years; I don't they ever used GMO anything to begin with)
22:03:58 <pikhq> And strongly justifying anything they do use.
22:04:19 <Sgeo> pikhq: better than not using something that should be used, I guess
22:04:40 <pikhq> I especially love how they're justifying the use of iodized salt.
22:04:42 <Gregor> So, salt is bad, MSG is fine.
22:05:41 <Sgeo> Hmm, I understand adding salt if this is the exclusively-eaten food. Is it as necessary if it isn't?
22:05:43 <pikhq> Though of course, MSG contrary to woo beliefs is actually utterly mundane.
22:05:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably depends on other dietary factors.
22:06:20 <pikhq> A lot of people probably get too *much* salt.
22:06:24 <Sgeo> "Vitamin C powder: MealSquares include over 100% of the vitamin C RDA without any added supplementation. However, vitamin C is the most chemically fragile vitamin, being degraded by exposure to heat, light, or basic mediums. To be on the safe side, we've added a little extra. We hope you’ll agree that a little extra vitamin C is a good thing."
22:06:31 <J_Arcane> Yes. MSG is perhaps the single most overhyped ingredient of all. XD
22:06:36 <Sgeo> Is Vitamin C overdose possible?
22:06:38 <pikhq> But yeah, if you're eating this exclusively you *better* have salt in it.
22:06:39 <Sgeo> I know A is possible
22:06:57 <elliott> there are people who take astronomical doses of vitamin C
22:07:00 <J_Arcane> bloody 50 years of ragging on poor MSG, even though it's been in 90% of processed food for at least as long as it's been identified.
22:07:01 <Sgeo> So.. does this mean this might not be healthy if I eat it as a snack + other food as normal?
22:07:16 <pikhq> Vitamin C overdose is possible but hard.
22:07:27 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Massive bombs of Vit-C basically does nothing. You just wee out the excess.
22:07:53 <pikhq> The major risk of too much vitamin C is indigestion and iron overdosing.
22:07:54 <J_Arcane> Those Emergen-C tablets are almost literally pissing money down the toilet. ;)
22:08:16 <pikhq> (vitamin C is a bit rough on the stomach, especially on an empty stomach, and vitamin C increases iron absorption)
22:08:59 <pikhq> So yeah. If you have a little too much vitamin C it'll do basically nothing.
22:09:21 <pikhq> J_Arcane: And it's just the salt of two nutrients.
22:09:41 <Sgeo> I would buy these, but I need a fridge
22:10:12 <pikhq> (sodium + glutamic acid. Sodium is, of course, utterly essential, and glutamic acid is just a non-essential amino acid that you digest perfectly fine.)
22:10:22 <J_Arcane> pikhq: Yup. You more or less make accidental MSG every time you cook soy sauce, meat, or mushrooms.
22:11:06 <J_Arcane> My favorite thing is that MSG is like the ultimate of 'processed food ingredient' scary, but in every health store you'll find bottles of Bragg's Liquid Aminos, which is essentially just a big bottle of the stuff in tasty brown liquid form.
22:12:38 <pikhq> Yep, cause an amino acid concentrate from soybeans is *definitely* something worth doing.
22:12:54 <pikhq> Rather than just, y'know, soy sauce.
22:13:42 <Sgeo> I woonder if these taste good
22:14:25 <pikhq> Note for what it's worth that they're not crowing about the taste. :)
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22:14:58 <Sgeo> They kind of are "We really surprised ourselves when our prototypes turned out tasty; this was the point that we knew we had to share it with others"
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22:16:06 <olsner> sounds like marketing speak for "surprisingly almost edible"
22:16:39 <olsner> Sgeo: you should try real food, it's pretty great
22:16:59 <Sgeo> Pizza is real food, right?
22:17:12 <Sgeo> I eat steak sometimes
22:17:45 <pikhq> These are both real foods and part of real diets.
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22:22:51 * Sgeo wonders if he can order groceries online
22:22:57 <Sgeo> Preferably in small quantities
22:23:48 <oren> You can in Toronto with Grocery Gateway but it sucks
22:24:25 <J_Arcane> I will confess that grocery shopping is not a favorite.
22:24:47 <J_Arcane> i suffer from some kind of weird decision anxiety.
22:24:47 <elliott> online grocery shopping is very much a thing, yes
22:25:36 <Sgeo> elliott: as far as I can tell, these things seem to have minimum orders
22:25:38 <J_Arcane> so sometimes a trip is easy as pie and I'm home in a flash, and sometimes I find myself wandering a store for hours while I spiral into guilt and shame and internal weeping.
22:25:44 <Sgeo> This site seems to be $30 minimum
22:26:09 <elliott> what are you trying to buy that you can't pad out with other stuff you'll end up needing anyway to make $30...
22:26:09 <Sgeo> If I had a fridge, I might just buy a bunch of food or something
22:26:19 <pikhq> I advise a fridge.
22:27:22 <Sgeo> I haven't had pomegranates in probably over a decade, I want to try one
22:29:47 <J_Arcane> They're tasty, but a pain in the ass.
22:29:57 <J_Arcane> i recommend just getting some pom juice.
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22:35:03 <oren> I am designing a tonal programming language
22:35:54 <Sgeo> Work has a fridge. I could have MealSquares sent to work
22:36:06 <oren> Tone will be indicated by varying the capitalization of the word
22:37:07 <Sgeo> lol "Teamwork OP"
22:37:13 <J_Arcane> unworkable idea of the day: a flavor-based programming language, which code checks based on the taste preferences of the specific compiler installation used to build it.
22:37:16 <oren> E.g. high tone KIN low tone kin, rising tone kiN falling tone KIn
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22:48:18 <h0rsep0wer> oren: You can build an overtone language.
22:50:07 -!- boily has joined.
22:50:10 <J_Arcane> h0rsep0wer: I used to be able to do that.
22:50:17 <J_Arcane> probably still could if I tried.
22:51:20 <h0rsep0wer> For the ones that don't know what it is: http://youtube.com/watch?v=VGbFB91eM34
22:52:04 * h0rsep0wer continues singing (OooooooooOOOooooOOOO)
22:52:44 <pikhq> Overtone singing is *hard*.
22:52:54 <pikhq> I've pulled it off, like, once.
22:53:34 <J_Arcane> I learned Tuvan style from a friend, though I never practiced it much. It's really about hitting the right tone to get the nose whistling.
22:57:14 <J_Arcane> You basically start with a low drone, and kind of work the vibration up until you hit the sweet spot and then sure enough, in comes the nose whistle.
22:57:43 <J_Arcane> I think it helped that I had experience doing that kind of tone because the friend and I used to do an act where we did the human bagpipes.
22:58:48 <h0rsep0wer> ->> <J_Arcane> You basically start with a low drone, and kind of work the vibration up until you hit the sweet spot and then sure enough, in comes the nose whistle.
23:00:18 <J_Arcane> The nonsense word I would sing to hit the zone was, essentially 'Ooowaaareeee' or somesuch like that (can't try it now, 1 in the morning here)
23:00:34 <h0rsep0wer> Like ......ººººººººººººooooooooooooo0000000000000000OCCCCCCCCCCCCC
23:02:51 <h0rsep0wer> Ooowaaareeeeeeeeeeeeouiooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuiooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
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23:07:12 <Lilax> Idk what my language will be called but it looks retarded
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00:04:04 * boily makes weird noises... «ø̈ø̈ø̈ø̈ø̈»
00:05:06 <boily> Lilax: what is a zeoul?
00:05:23 <oren> The name of my language is rI Pui for the read and print verbs
00:06:23 <boily> http://i.imgur.com/Q3Vduhb.png ?
00:08:40 -!- Lilax has changed nick to Zuriel.
00:08:54 -!- Zuriel has changed nick to Lilax.
00:10:59 <boily> embrace your demonic self. become one with the hellspawn. enjoy the company of Fungot.
00:11:13 <fungot> Lilax: ' then fur ahead where bishop's brook goes under the whole city in a green valley, where the vast gleaming dome and fnord ionic columns of the christian science church beckoned northward. then eight squares past the fine old residence streets broad, washington, lafayette, and adams streets. though these stately old avenues. were fnord and his speech was very curious, an extreme form of yankee dialect i had thought.
00:11:30 <boily> not holy, boily :D
00:11:52 <lambdabot> ESSA 192350Z 03008KT 9999 SCT023 BKN029 M03/M03 Q1023 R01L/910556 R08/910560 R01R/720144 TEMPO BKN012
00:12:14 <boily> I should remetasepify the channel one day...
00:12:27 <lambdabot> CYUL 200000Z 26015G24KT 15SM FEW030 FEW070 FEW240 M07/M11 A2977 RMK SC1AC1CI2 SC TR AC TR SLP083
00:12:40 <boily> current weather for airplane pilots.
00:13:06 <Lilax> no the other thing
00:13:20 <boily> I had a bot. it was called metasepia.
00:13:42 <boily> the Second Coming is Nigh! (meaning some time this year, probably.)
00:14:05 <boily> and with that, I'm hungry. time to pilfer a pizza or two...
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00:14:46 <Lilax> I wish I could pilfer a pizza
00:14:56 <adu> how do I design and implement a multi-language function database without choosing a programming language?
00:32:51 -!- h0rsep0wer has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:33:41 <oren> adu: what do you mean a "function database"
00:34:31 <Lilax> a database that has multiple functions
00:34:59 <adu> oren: something maybe half-way between http://rosettacode.org and http://www.krugle.com
00:35:12 <Lilax> or a database that has multiple functions for different languages
00:35:21 <adu> Lilax: yes
00:36:44 <Lilax> I've never heard of krugle before
00:37:00 <adu> rosettacode is good at the "narrative", but krugle is good at describing existing software
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00:37:33 <adu> Lilax: krugle and code.google.com are about the same, they provide keyword search of a large gamut of software projects
00:37:44 <adu> I think github might also provide an inter-project search
00:38:43 <adu> for example, there are hundreds of implemenations of itoa()
00:39:08 <Lilax> I was thinking of using arch again
00:39:09 <adu> and they're all a bit different, there should be one entry on that, like rosettacode, with references to each project/file
00:40:03 <adu> but they're not always called "itoa", sometimes they're called "int_to_str", so keyword search sucks on that
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01:32:06 <Lilax> Put esoteric before every thing
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02:06:33 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of goldfire's suggestions on 9858
02:07:15 <oerjan> i think he probably put a "not" where he didn't mean to
02:08:56 <oerjan> i'm just hoping that adding kind information to typerefs won't give too much trouble
02:10:31 <oerjan> or wait, maybe i'm misreading him
02:10:41 <oerjan> he just wants the kinds in a slightly different place
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02:36:53 <shachaf> he doesn't want explicit kind information but implicit kind information just because things are parameterized on kinds
02:37:03 <shachaf> only in the polykinded case
02:39:39 <shachaf> so in particular you'd still need to disambiguate T and 'T
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02:43:29 <Lilax> "everytime you go to sleep you die, And someone else wakes up in your body thinking they are you"
02:47:03 <oerjan> Lilax: have you been readin SMBC
02:47:36 <oerjan> there was a comic like that
02:47:54 <Lilax> you said it in a southern accent oerjan
02:48:22 -!- augur has joined.
02:48:33 <Lilax> Makes no sense only one person said it
02:48:58 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
02:49:03 <oerjan> actually i've heard there are accents so southern that y'all is singular and you need to say y'all y'all for the plural
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02:58:51 <Lilax> I was born in teh south
02:58:57 <Lilax> I know what its like
02:59:09 <Lilax> Or atleast my family said y'all as plural
02:59:19 <Lilax> And regular you there for singular
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03:10:09 <oerjan> Lilax: i didn't say _all_ southerners did that, just that i've heard rumors of some who do
03:10:33 <Lilax> there's rumors in Norway?
03:10:46 <oerjan> well i probably read it on the internet hth
03:10:58 <oerjan> (probably way back in the 90s, too)
03:11:17 <oerjan> so maybe those hillbillies died out in the meantime
03:11:26 <Lilax> Old people are cool
03:12:04 <Lilax> I mean Middle aged
03:12:13 <Lilax> but in perspective to 16
03:12:35 * oerjan waves his Middle Ages halberd at Lilax
03:12:42 <Lilax> 44 :0 Gasp that means you lived in the 80's
03:13:01 <Sgeo> I heard that there are no rumors on IRC
03:15:08 <shachaf> i heard that you can beat the 7s master bot these days
03:16:31 <Sgeo> If by you you mean the general you, sure
03:16:39 <Sgeo> The specific you meaning me cannot as far as me knows
03:17:21 <Sgeo> It might be true, but I haven't ever checked
03:18:54 <Sgeo> Prismata AI bot that takes 7 seconds to think, I think
03:19:42 <Sgeo> Well, the other setting for Master Bot is 5s I think
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03:22:49 <Lilax> what was Norway like in the 80's
03:30:53 <augur> what a strange place to find myself mentioned
03:31:38 <augur> speaking of norway, norwegian beer nørge ø id kind of too smokey fmy tastes
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03:47:44 <oerjan> Lilax: i vaguely recall the 80s had a lot of rain and snowstorms hth
03:48:10 <oerjan> sometimes at the same time.
03:49:05 <oerjan> and i had to go uphill to school, both ways.
03:49:10 <oerjan> (the hill was in the middle)
03:50:37 <quintopia> someone recommend a cheap 5.1 system with rear wireless
03:50:53 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
03:51:12 <oerjan> quintopia: sometimes it's _so_ nice to be completely unqualified to answer.
03:51:45 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
03:52:04 <quintopia> someone recommend a cheap 5.1 system with rear wireless
03:52:29 <oerjan> ^echo sometimes it's _so_ nice to be completely unqualified to answer.
03:52:29 <fungot> sometimes it's _so_ nice to be completely unqualified to answer. sometimes it's _so_ nice to be completely unqualified to answer.
03:53:27 <oerjan> quintopia: CAN YOU READ THIS
03:56:31 <quintopia> i was just scrolled up. all the way to the top
03:56:31 <MDream> Get six cheap systems, cut of nine tenths of one and stick a wireless router on the back.
03:57:35 <shachaf> quintopia: if only it was that easy
03:57:46 <oerjan> quintopia: why, i though MDream deserved it more
03:58:22 <shachaf> oerjan: don't i deserve it a little bit
03:58:33 <oerjan> shachaf: extremely hth
03:58:49 <shachaf> by the way, i found a bug: "deriving instance Typeable (GHC.Prim.*)" wants you to turn on NullaryTypeClasses
03:59:17 <shachaf> if we go with goldfire's suggestion, all the kinds will have to get Typeable instances, or something
03:59:17 <oerjan> wait * is an actual identifier now?
03:59:35 <shachaf> * has been a kind for a while hth
03:59:52 <oerjan> well yeah i just didn't know it counted as an identifier
04:00:00 <shachaf> well, you need parentheses here
04:00:05 <oerjan> thought it was too special
04:00:06 <shachaf> it's kind of a bizarre syntax edge case
04:00:19 <oerjan> but _can_ you make typeclass instances for kinds alone?
04:00:33 <oerjan> my vague thought was you'd need to at least wrap it in Proxy
04:00:35 <shachaf> even better, GHC.TypeLits exports a * for Nat multiplication
04:01:16 <oerjan> ...they're going to have to find a better system for those syntax distinctions.
04:01:33 <shachaf> scoping has always worked before
04:02:02 <shachaf> it's vaguely irritating that they chose to have (==) be the thing :: k -> k -> Bool rather and used (:~:) for type equality
04:02:13 <shachaf> well, (==) doesn't exist yet, but it presumably will
04:02:20 <oerjan> is it still impossible in head to use (,) prefix, when of kind Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint ?
04:03:26 <shachaf> but you can define type P (a::Constraint) b = (a,b) and use P prefix?
04:04:09 <oerjan> shachaf: perhaps they named :~: before they decided to allow type constructor operators not to start with : ?
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04:04:43 <oerjan> shachaf: can you? and if so, can you make instances for it?
04:05:03 <shachaf> oerjan: there was a mailing list argument about it before Data.Typeable with (:~:) was released
04:05:14 <oerjan> this is related to an old SO question
04:05:17 <shachaf> but someone really wanted to reserve (==) for Bool
04:05:26 <shachaf> which sort of makes sense, i suppose, give that (<=) and so on exist
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04:08:28 <oerjan> argh i hate when i click to focus and there's accidentally a link there
04:12:07 <oerjan> hmph cannot find it, oh well
04:33:34 <Lilax> someone redirect me to a channel about physics and stuff
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05:05:13 <shachaf> AndoDaan: did you learn prismata
05:06:52 <AndoDaan> I did the first 3 tutorials before my laptop started overheating.
05:07:04 <shachaf> yes, it uses 100% cpu on linux flash for some reason
05:07:44 <AndoDaan> Pretty greedy for what's essentially a card game.
05:09:04 <AndoDaan> I might give it another go at a later date, try it with another browser.
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05:11:54 <HackEgo> [U+3093 HIRAGANA LETTER N]
05:12:42 <oerjan> hm i guess n is syllable-final
05:13:22 <shachaf> it's still a what's-it-called hth
05:14:25 <coppro> it makes me sad that there is no halfwidth ん
05:15:27 <zzo38> There is no halfwidth hiragana in Unicode, only katakana can be half
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05:16:38 <Lilax> elephants are the Canadians of the animal world
05:17:03 <zzo38> Lilax: How is that?
05:17:46 <myname> they both give you donuts
05:18:53 <Lilax> http://m.imgur.com/3KOwIGe
05:45:41 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> If I had a fridge, I might just buy a bunch of food or something <-- getting by without a fridge in modern society sounds _horribly_ awkward.
05:46:18 <oerjan> (before modern society, everything was horribly awkward regardless)
05:49:44 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo by which i mean, unless you're poor as dirt, get one for heaven's sake.
05:52:40 <Sgeo> oerjan: it would be horribly awkward to get it in here and find space for it. This place is gross
05:52:59 <Sgeo> I can't let other people in here
05:53:27 <oerjan> i'd advice you to get a better place to live, but then we're getting into territory i cannot manage myself...
05:54:43 <Sgeo> I want to get a professional cleaner in here
05:55:59 <oerjan> but you cannot fit them, right?
05:56:24 <shachaf> oerjan: please advise me to get a better place to live twh
05:56:29 <shachaf> e.g. a place with a window
05:56:38 <oerjan> shachaf: get a better place to live hth
05:56:56 <Sgeo> But I don't want to move away from people who recognize me when I eat there everyday
05:56:58 <shachaf> but first i need to figure out where i'm going to live
05:57:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: hey i resemble that remark
05:58:17 <oerjan> in fact they're probably worried because i haven't been there since saturday
05:58:50 <oerjan> (my sleeping schedule has been going through that phase where i wake up after they close)
05:59:10 <Sgeo> The fact that the places close helps keep my sleep schedule resembling some sort of normality
05:59:40 <oerjan> unfortunately, my body insists too strongly on the wrong day length for that to work
06:00:15 <oerjan> although it does help slow the drift down in parts of the cycle
06:01:26 <zzo38> There is one puzzle in this Magic: the Puzzling that involves figuring out the play from one board situation to the next one, assuming that it isn't just a lucky Mana Clash, and assuming it is a Fourth Edition Highlander game.
06:03:00 <zzo38> I could figure out because I have a book with all of the cards up to 1996.
06:04:52 <Sgeo> "If I could give this fridge zero stars I would. I am a college student so I needed a small fridge for my room. The milk went bad after 4 days, which is record time. Everything was extremely warm, I think it would have been better to leave my stuff outside in room temperature. I wasn't expecting the fridge to be this bad, specially cuz is $100. So make yourself a favor and DON'T buy this piece of crap."
06:05:57 <Sgeo> How much should I blindly trust Amazon reviews?
06:08:10 <zzo38> Never blindly trust anyone
06:08:29 <Sgeo> I just bought towels based on Amazon reviews. Maybe the towels aren't as great as suggested, but towels can't kill me or anything, right?
06:08:30 <shachaf> unless their name is zzo38
06:08:51 <Sgeo> Also I do need new towels
06:08:56 <shachaf> Sgeo: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2833074/Forget-door-handles-toilet-seats-germ-infested-objects-home-TOWELS.html
06:09:00 <Sgeo> I think my current towels are dead.
06:09:03 <shachaf> blindly trust the daily mail
06:09:07 <zzo38> You should at least read it first!
06:09:45 <shachaf> http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/understanding-stds-basics also tells you to be wary of towels
06:09:48 <oerjan> Sgeo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szc8xHtlCS8 hth
06:10:23 <shachaf> oerjan's link is much better
06:10:25 <Sgeo> I thought the towel was going to tilt the chair over
06:15:28 <shachaf> what was that short story where there were aliens that looked to each person like the thing they'd least like to be in contact with?
06:15:45 <shachaf> they looked like a bar of soap, or a razor, or alcohol
06:17:31 <shachaf> aha, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29601/29601-h/29601-h.htm
06:17:46 <oerjan> i don't remember that but i remember something like the opposite, an alien which trapped people by taking the form they wanted to get in contect with.
06:18:06 <shachaf> it was in the book "50 Short Science Fiction Tales"
06:18:20 <Sgeo> oerjan: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-523
06:18:35 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-523
06:19:59 <oerjan> definitely not what i read
06:19:59 <Sgeo> There are probably similar SCPs
06:20:07 <oerjan> i don't think it was an SCP
06:20:22 <oerjan> also i probably only read a description of the story, not the story itself.
06:20:42 <Sgeo> I should probably sleep
06:20:59 <Sgeo> i took sleepy medicine that is really anti-anxiety but was prescirbed for sleepytie
06:21:13 <oerjan> anyway they met it in a jungle or something, and its trap was foiled by the people realizing how unlikely it was to find an ice cream bar there, or something like that.
06:24:29 <Lilax> Describe your self with an SCP
06:25:08 <shachaf> http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/50918/story-id-astronaut-is-freed-from-mind-parasite-when-he-leaves-earths-gravity-w is another story i remember from that book
06:26:35 <Lilax> that scp is horrible
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06:33:32 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeIAmA/comments/1wdup0/explain_the_doctor_like_iama_the_scp_foundation/cf1543u
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07:35:58 <Lilax> there's a street in Arizona
07:36:03 <Lilax> Called Bucket of Blood
07:36:24 <oerjan> there is a house in New Orleans
07:36:34 <oerjan> They call the Rising Sun
07:37:21 <Lilax> you did not just..
07:39:43 <vanila> I kind of wnat to write a blog post about the lambdabot exploti
07:39:54 <vanila> I thought about it but there wasn't too much to say
07:40:07 <Lilax> Say lambdabot broke
07:40:16 <Lilax> And that no one fixed it
07:40:26 <oerjan> well it's sandboxed now
07:41:03 <oerjan> it's just not obvious how to fix it otherwise without disabling too many features
07:41:22 <oerjan> until a real bugfix for ghc comes out
07:41:34 <vanila> it's a pretty intereting bug
07:42:09 <vanila> i wonder if just removing IO would fix thi
07:42:38 <oerjan> vanila: doubtful, with unsafeCoerce you can probably do code injection
07:43:21 <vanila> oerjan posted a poc before
07:43:33 * Qfwfq consults scrollback
07:43:42 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits
07:44:09 <vanila> GHC bug 10000 is relevant
07:44:30 <Lilax> still pretry broken
07:44:45 <oerjan> the one numbered 4 is the last one
07:45:33 <oerjan> Lilax: nvg.org is basically an alias for nvg.ntnu.no
07:45:45 <oerjan> shachaf: well i just removed a function that was unused from 3
07:46:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i didn't want to change a file i'd already linked
07:46:15 <shachaf> You renamed e to e' without changing the version number.
07:46:48 <shachaf> you should switch to NOINLINE rather than munge imo
07:47:12 <shachaf> probably would even with with -O2 that way
07:47:30 <shachaf> also you should do the type PX = Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *); type PY = Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *) thing for clarity
07:48:15 <oerjan> hm let's do that and change Exploit4.hs to it
07:48:17 <zzo38> What is it that failed exactly that NOINLINE and -O2 and those other things to fix it?
07:48:33 <shachaf> also you should make it work without TypeFamilies hth
07:48:35 <oerjan> zzo38: ghc did some strange inlining so it crashed instead
07:48:57 <oerjan> or sometimes printed a completely unrelated number
07:49:14 <zzo38> You should report and/or fix the bug though
07:49:24 <shachaf> I don't know that it's a bug.
07:50:03 <shachaf> It only happens in a case where you have an equality witness for unequal types.
07:51:10 <zzo38> How can you have an equality witness for unequal types? I looked at your file but it doesn't seem to explain everything
07:51:17 <oerjan> yes, so ghc may be doing an entirely sane assumption that just breaks because we're already doing an insane exploit
07:51:35 <shachaf> Anyway, making it NOINLINE works even under O2
07:51:49 <shachaf> Whereas munge doesn't work when compiling with ghc even with O0
07:52:10 <shachaf> And I don't think you can turn NOINLINE off, and relying on it would be silly anyway.
07:52:37 <oerjan> ok now Exploit4.hs has been updated to a cleaner version
07:52:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *) and Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *) are unequal types (because they have unequal kinds) but they have equal TypeReps.
07:53:12 <zzo38> Then it seem it probably is a bug if they have equal TypeReps despite that.
07:53:30 <shachaf> (and also 10000 but that's a duplicate :'( )
07:53:48 <oerjan> well it's exactly either, because the types used are different
07:53:56 <oerjan> but it's been reported in the comments there
07:54:25 <shachaf> A bug includes its comments.
07:54:28 <oerjan> so it's two slightly different bugs that can be used for the same purpose
07:54:44 <shachaf> goldfire wants to give them two different fixes, too.
07:54:47 <oerjan> shachaf: _maybe_, they sometimes ask you to make a new one...
07:55:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i think in _principle_ you could give a common fix, but that would require including kind information even for monokind typereps
07:55:40 <Lilax> who was the first coder
07:55:41 <shachaf> I think goldfire's proposal isn't unreasonable.
07:55:51 <oerjan> Lilax: lady Ada Lovelace hth
07:56:12 <Lilax> sounds like a pokemon
07:56:18 <oerjan> shachaf: i think we'll just have to wait and see how it actually works
07:56:32 <shachaf> Hmm, what's the easiest way to do damage if you don't have any IO things in scope?
07:56:41 <oerjan> Lilax: what, are you insulting her
07:56:50 <shachaf> It's not that easy to just make a ByteString with code that you can jump into, is it?
07:56:54 <oerjan> shachaf: well we already know how to crash ghc without it...
07:57:03 <shachaf> Crash GHC, sure, but not arbitrary code.
07:57:09 <zzo38> Another thing I have seen NOINLINE sometimes used for is to make up global variables, and I hate that, because I know another way.
07:57:17 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the another way?
07:57:43 <oerjan> shachaf: well you still have to evade w/e page protection...
07:57:44 <shachaf> oerjan: vaguely surprised that you don't need TypeSynonymInstances for that type instance, actually
07:57:56 <shachaf> oerjan: well, a string literal won't be in writable memory
07:58:18 <shachaf> (or maybe it would be a problem)
07:58:21 <oerjan> shachaf: i was too, but maybe it's because it's only an argument, not the actual datatype instanced
07:58:38 <shachaf> what would it mean for it to be the actual datatype instance
07:58:39 <zzo38> One way is for main to hold a value of a "extensible product" type; modules that don't know each other can add fields to it as long as they know the module providing the record type to use.
07:58:53 <oerjan> shachaf: type G = F etc. ...
07:59:22 <shachaf> TSI lets you do instance K A where type F A = ..., where A is a synonym
07:59:26 <shachaf> this looks like the same sort of thing
07:59:44 <zzo38> But the syntax of Haskell is a bit long to make label types out of, since you both have to define the datatype, the deriving clauses, and any instances
08:00:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Another way is JHC's ACIO. Do you like that way?
08:00:54 <zzo38> I don't know what is that way
08:01:18 <shachaf> http://repetae.net/repos/jhc/lib/jhc/Jhc/ACIO.hs
08:01:22 <zzo38> Although I guess it probably would be better than using NOINLINE and unsafePerformIO
08:02:46 <vanila> I wanted to use a different haskell compiler than GHC
08:02:46 <vanila> there arnet many though :(
08:02:46 <vanila> and the one I tried didn't work
08:03:51 <zzo38> Although it seems better than the NOINLINE and unsafePerformIO way, it still seem worse to me than the way I have made up, however the way I have made up has its own problems too.
08:06:24 <oerjan> i think there is a package providing such an extensible product, although it presumably uses NOINLINE and unsafePerformIO internally
08:07:26 <oerjan> although my memory is too vague
08:08:32 <zzo38> There is one I have written although it doesn't use NOINLINE or unsafePerformIO internally (but it does use unsafeCoerce)
08:08:58 <vanila> is there a proof it cant be done in haskell
08:10:20 <vanila> I think it's simiilar to ST
08:10:21 <oerjan> you cannot make a top level value that depends on the result of an IO action
08:10:29 <vanila> I think you can't implement a pure version of ST wihour unsafe
08:11:13 <oerjan> vanila: yeah it requires dependent typing
08:11:46 <vanila> its interesting that it takes deptypes but has a pure, system F typed interface
08:14:43 <zzo38> Did you know it is possible to run Java programs on a Apple II computer? Apparently it is possible.
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08:25:14 <shachaf> oerjan: ok, it's easy enough to get a jump to an arbitrary address
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08:26:13 * oerjan leaves this investigation to people understanding more low-level stuff
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08:51:41 <J_Arcane> hah hah. http://programming-motherfucker.com/
08:51:56 <oerjan> b_jonas: thanks for linking that cstheory question the other day
08:52:13 <oerjan> (didn't completely solve the problem, though)
08:52:19 <b_jonas> I've seen you've given a partial answer
08:52:36 <b_jonas> (also maybe we should point ais523 there as well)
08:53:36 <oerjan> http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/21525/conjecture-about-two-counters-automata
08:53:48 <b_jonas> vanila: http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/21525/8067
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09:19:37 <mroman> J_Arcane: Is that sfw? @programming-motherfucker
09:19:52 <J_Arcane> mroman: nothing more than some strong language.
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13:46:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41704&oldid=41604 * TomPN * (+18) /* Setup */
13:46:59 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/designs/d2/
13:47:07 <mroman> this is actually probably the most clean design a website can have
13:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41705&oldid=41704 * TomPN * (-1) /* Qubits */
13:50:06 <mroman> and it looks good on smartphone
13:50:15 <mroman> and can be read on my smartphone without using zoom
13:50:51 <mroman> I wish I could say that about professional websites made by professional web designers asking for thousands bucks
13:52:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41706&oldid=41705 * TomPN * (+74) /* Setup */
13:54:26 <mroman> some are pretty much unviewable on smartphones without zooming
13:54:44 <mroman> and the ads get in the way of pretty much anything
13:55:16 <J_Arcane> frankly my favorite web design I ever did was some old rubbish in bare HTML I wrote when I was barely out of high school.
13:58:50 <mroman> Websites for smartphones should be designed for <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1">
13:59:19 <mroman> and fuck everybody who does shitty things like body { font-size: 12pt; }
13:59:58 <mroman> (although I did that in the past. But I notice know how much that sucks)
14:00:26 <J_Arcane> That site didn't even have CSS. :D
14:02:24 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/noos/ is probably one of my first designs
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14:07:56 <J_Arcane> this is the second page I ever did. http://web.archive.org/web/20070630035631/http://hedgames.netfirms.com/
14:08:14 <J_Arcane> The first was a garish GeoCities monstrosity which has been blissfully lost.
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14:16:27 <J_Arcane> My most recent site design is not visible anywhere, because I can't be arsed to pay for hosting for what is little more than a gag app.
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16:58:47 <mroman> If you take f(x)=x^2 and you calculate the difference g(x)=f(x+1)-f(x)
16:58:56 <mroman> and then h(x)=g(x+1)-g(x)
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17:00:17 <mroman> (which is the same as derive(derive(f)) )
17:01:00 <mroman> so you end up at f again
17:01:18 <mroman> i.e. for f(x)=2^x -> g(x)=f(x+1)-f(x)=f(x)
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17:02:59 <Jafet> This is the real reason computer scientists use base-2 logarithms
17:03:01 <mroman> what does this tell me o_O
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17:04:56 <int-e> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FiniteDifference.html
17:05:09 <int-e> mroman: it says that 2 is for finite differences what e is for differentiation
17:05:39 <int-e> (well, for the forward difference at least)
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17:16:20 <mroman> for x^2 it ends up at 2
17:16:33 <mroman> which somehow looks like factorial numbers
17:17:49 <int-e> (x+1)^k - x^k = k*x^(k-1) + O(x^(k-2))
17:26:39 <lambdabot> Triangle of numbers T(n,k) = k!*Stirling2(n,k) read by rows (n >= 1, 1 <= k ...
17:27:46 <mroman> as I remember from my courses there's no way to calculate Stirling numbers
17:29:52 <int-e> The Stirling recurrence is quite nice for computers.
17:31:02 <int-e> And the mathematicians have done what they usually do when they encounter a function that's useful but has no closed formula: they introduced a notation for it.
17:35:25 <Jafet> Why would you need a closed formula to calculate things
17:37:44 <mroman> there's mod complex numbers o_O
17:40:09 <int-e> Oh mroman will discover Galois theory next!
17:40:15 <mroman> I should study galois theory
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17:43:04 <mroman> too bad there's no money in that
17:44:17 <Jafet> On the contrary, you can gain many galois connections
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17:46:27 <int-e> yes, http://galois.com/ is a serious company and a math insider joke
17:47:12 <int-e> (they seemed to have lost their "connections" though)
17:48:58 <int-e> (They're also kind of frightening. Their job advertisements usually require that people be able to acquire a security clearance in the US)
17:49:39 <int-e> As I said, frightening.
17:49:59 <int-e> Is there any ethical application of functional programming? ;-)
17:50:26 <coppro> it violates at least two of the Geneva Conventions
17:50:27 <elliott> makes the "serious international side-effects" unsafePerformIO fireMissiles jokes less funny :(
17:50:34 <int-e> (Military doesn't qualify, and neither do banks.)
17:52:17 <mroman> I propose renaming unsafePerformIO to sudo
17:52:58 <int-e> haha, automatically recording boards lead to some weird effects when games end...
17:53:17 <int-e> 50 Kxf3 exf3 ... where'd the King go?!
17:54:47 <int-e> (I'm assuming the players started some reviewing right there)
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17:56:53 <zzo38> int-e: Where does that come from?
17:57:43 <int-e> zzo38: http://2700chess.com/live - it was the Caruana-Yifan game, but it's already been corrected.
17:57:47 <zzo38> And how is the board automatically recorded?
17:59:56 <tromp> Yifan accepted a draw when she has mate in 11?
18:01:05 <zzo38> But is there enough time?
18:02:37 <tromp> oops; was watching a side-variation apparently
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18:07:25 <int-e> "Modern, reliable sensor technology recognizes each piece accurately and fast." -- they could be using some RFID technology.
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18:21:24 <Jafet> I believe the main reason they need security clearance is so that they can get contracts that require them to have security clearance
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18:28:01 <elliott> (i.e., military contracts)
18:28:45 <J_Arcane> "SMACCMPilot is an embedded systems software research project where we are building open-source autopilot software for small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) using new high-assurance software methods."
18:28:53 <J_Arcane> That kinda thing might have sometihng to do with it.
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18:53:30 <fizzie> int-e: I know a structural engineer back in Finland who really wants a job at Boeing, and the whole security clearance (exclusive to US citizens?) thing makes many of their positions not applicable.
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18:56:27 <zzo38> I have heard of people who aren't US citizens getting a job at Boeing though
18:58:30 <fizzie> Not all of their jobs require a security clearance. But many do. Or so I've heard.
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19:10:00 <fizzie> I guess it depends on how closely in the job you would be involved with their projects done for the military?
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19:34:02 <zzo38> "~'s owner controls you."
19:35:33 <shachaf> I hear even US citizens who are citizens of other countries have trouble with it.
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20:20:47 <zzo38> I made up some more Magic: the Gathering cards, even a few of my cards involve old stuff such as shadow and phasing and cumulative upkeep and banding.
20:21:30 <zzo38> Temporal Shadows (1{W/U/B}) Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant creature ;; Phasing ;; Enchanted creature gains shadow.
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20:28:41 <zzo38> In case you need the URL: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
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21:28:05 <APic> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5JA8Ytk9EI&list=PL1474DAB09C40D3BA&index=111
21:39:49 <b_jonas> ais523: this question about one of those strange exponentially inefficient computing models might or might not interest you: http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/21525/
21:47:03 <int-e> christmas?! which calendar's year is ending in 7 days?
21:47:38 <int-e> (By that calculation, Feb 12 is Chinese Christmas this year...)
21:50:37 <APic> mroman: Happy Birthday from me, too.
21:51:37 <int-e> Or perhaps the 11th. Hmm.
21:55:21 <int-e> (Christmas itself has a somewhat hazy definition. Is it the 24th? the 25th? or does it describe more than one day?)
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22:08:09 <FireFly> Well "christmas day" is the 25th and "christmas eve" the 24th
22:08:47 <FireFly> I mean, even though we only celebrate on the 24th we still use the same nomenclature, so I think I'd put 25th as the "date of christmas"
22:11:12 <olsner> for me "christmas" is definitely on christmas eve
22:11:21 <olsner> christmas day starts the after-christmas
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22:16:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:16:42 <int-e> `` ls -la bin/2015
22:16:44 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 80 Jan 6 17:40 bin/2015
22:16:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
22:18:22 <HackEgo> Tue Jan 20 22:18:21 UTC 2015
22:19:34 <int-e> I forgot about the joke.
22:20:08 <shachaf> use data +%G instead of date +%Y for some bonus confusion
22:20:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: data: not found
22:21:08 <shachaf> `` date -d '2014-12-30' +'%G %Y'
22:21:47 <int-e> oh that's the one where Wednesday decides which year the week belongs to?
22:22:12 <shachaf> int-e: As far as we know turning off TypeFamilies doesn't allow you to run arbitrary IO, right?
22:23:27 <int-e> Ah no, Thursday decides.
22:24:01 <int-e> shachaf: as far as we know, and there may be "evil" type families ready to exploit in some library already.
22:24:23 <shachaf> Well, no one knows how to do it right now, at least.
22:24:38 <shachaf> (Of course we do know how to crash the program, but that's not so bad.)
22:25:25 <int-e> You can provide broken Ord instances and the like?
22:26:04 <int-e> But you can do that anyway :)
22:26:20 <shachaf> I just meant crash the program with a GADT.
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22:33:03 <int-e> V.y = case V.x of _ [Occ=Dead] { } ... right.
22:33:53 <shachaf> If GHC did a little optimization then you could write unsafeCoerce just like with type families.
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22:58:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 202200Z 24015KT 15SM FEW120 M15/M21 A2999 RMK AC1 AC TR SLP160
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23:01:42 <Taneb> Well, in approximately the past week I have watched all of Gravity Falls
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23:03:17 <boily> Tanelle! how was it?
23:03:28 <boily> hellørjan. how is it?
23:06:09 <oerjan> g'doily. still basking in my bounty.
23:06:18 <Taneb> I really enjoyed it
23:06:39 <Taneb> oerjan, you have a bounty?
23:06:42 <Taneb> What are you wanted for?
23:07:14 <boily> oerjan: how much are you worth?
23:07:24 <oerjan> no, i got a bounty, on cstheory.stackexchange. 100 rep.
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23:26:07 <oerjan> <int-e> (well, for the forward difference at least) <-- a^x - a^(x-1) = a^x has no useful solution :(
23:26:42 <int-e> oerjan: you discovered the reason why I wrote that...
23:27:15 <oerjan> hm what if you allow more general functions
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23:42:45 <int-e> shachaf: this works when compiled, http://lpaste.net/3502469903456141312
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23:44:23 <shachaf> I guess I never bothered checking outside ghci.
23:45:42 <oerjan> int-e: you mean it needs major change to work then?
23:46:10 <oerjan> you're not using TypeFamilies any more
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23:47:27 <oerjan> are AutoDeriveTypeable and RankNTypes really needed?
23:47:37 <int-e> (so ghc does that little optimization where it doesn't bother to check the constructor's tag if the pointer is tagged and the type allows only one constructor)
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23:47:56 <shachaf> int-e: Only when compiling, I guess.
23:47:57 <oerjan> oh so for GADTs you _need_ that optimization?
23:48:14 <shachaf> Actually it looks like int-e did something more complicated than what I did.
23:48:29 <int-e> ghci crashes gracefuilly complaining about hitting an impossible case.
23:48:32 <shachaf> Maybe that's why his trick works.
23:49:04 <shachaf> Because I just did the direct equivalent of the type family, data F a b p where { A :: a -> F a b PX; B :: b -> F a b PY }
23:49:23 <shachaf> But maybe the way int-e did it it just checks that the value isn't _|_ without actually checking the tag, because it's just being used as an equality proof.
23:49:28 <int-e> oerjan: I need a typeable instance for Y, of course. The Rank2Types are only needed to get a proper unsafecoerce instead of any special case you might desire.
23:49:46 <int-e> shachaf: yes, I think so.
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23:50:40 <oerjan> int-e: in the TypeFamilies version, i managed to avoid deriving Typeable by just applying cast to the predefined :~: type...
23:51:33 <oerjan> and its nested Proxies
23:52:36 <shachaf> one time spj called "gcast Refl" "a ferociously-unintuitive use of 'gcast'"
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23:54:43 <oerjan> you're not actually using ST are you
23:55:06 <int-e> oerjan: no, of course not.
23:55:07 <APic> http://Hentai.Republican/
23:55:32 <int-e> oerjan: I was playing with the idea of just doing unsafePerformUnitIO :: IO () -> ()
23:57:15 <int-e> oerjan: I guess your exploit shows that one can easily use TypeFamilies to lift one inconsistent type cast to arbitrary ones, without having to resort to RankNTypes. They're sort of hidden in the 'supercast' thing.
23:58:18 <int-e> oerjan: At least to me, the F seems essential there.
23:58:21 <oerjan> yes but is there anything preventing that from working with the GADT version as well
23:58:45 <int-e> I called it castAB :: f A -> f B ;-)
00:01:04 <oerjan> oh i just made that type more specific to avoid ScopedTypeVariables
00:01:55 <int-e> oerjan: this is my version of your code (based on your code) http://lpaste.net/3703918584196497408
00:01:55 <oerjan> or something like that, anyway
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00:02:29 <int-e> there are no ScopedTypeVariables
00:03:57 <oerjan> i guess the need got factored away somehow
00:04:26 <shachaf> ScopedTypeVariables was needed earlier when you needed to refer to a and b
00:05:20 <shachaf> Is there ever a program where ScopedTypeVariables is needed?
00:06:25 <shachaf> Oleg had an article on it.
00:06:34 <shachaf> Something that used guards to specify type hints.
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00:08:48 <Taneb> I still don't believe Oleg exists
00:19:01 <Taneb> Am I going to get attacked by Oleg in my sleep now
00:20:01 <boily> I don't think there are reported cases of noleghtmares. you may be the first!
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00:22:49 <int-e> oerjan: ok, you win, RankNTypes are not required: http://lpaste.net/187269619306725376
00:23:27 <int-e> (In case you wonder, the knot-tying is for avoiding ScopedTypeVariables)
00:23:35 <oerjan> good, my attempt was getting bogged down in that :P
00:24:11 <oerjan> mind if upload that to my lbexploits directory
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00:25:02 <oerjan> (your version, that is, no use for me continuing)
00:26:11 <int-e> ping me if you ever decide to add authors :P
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00:26:54 <oerjan> i thought i'd just add a {- By int-e with permission -} comment
00:27:07 <Taneb> How much do I care about separation logic
00:27:12 <oerjan> of course if you'd prefer your real name in it...
00:27:43 <int-e> oerjan: nah, there are enough people who'll recognize the nick as is
00:28:02 <shachaf> Is KindSignatures required?
00:28:29 <shachaf> As opposed to just putting in a constraint or extraneous argument or something that forces the kind.
00:28:30 <Taneb> int-e, do what I do and call yourself Nathan "Taneb" van Doorn
00:28:34 <Taneb> Except with your name and nick
00:28:45 <int-e> I don't know, but I think so, since kind inference is very weak. (You can't define type Foo a and later use Foo Maybe, that'll be a kind error0
00:29:26 <boily> Taneb: this doesn't really quite work with me :P
00:30:01 <shachaf> int-e: Right, but you don't need a type synonym.
00:30:06 <Taneb> boily, Alexandre "boily" Boily?
00:30:09 <shachaf> It can be part of the signature.
00:30:12 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/ExploitGADT.hs
00:31:03 <Taneb> boily, I believe oerjan and shachaf have similar issues
00:31:12 <Taneb> Similar, but not quite the same
00:31:46 <Taneb> I should use Ngevd more often
00:32:07 <boily> oerjan's the other way round. I have no idea what is shachaf's name.
00:32:24 <int-e> shachaf: I don't understand.
00:32:27 <Taneb> I know people who call me Taneb offline which scares me a little
00:33:18 <Taneb> Seriously if any of you ever see me AFK please call me Nathan
00:33:21 <int-e> Taneb: is it tainib or tahneb?
00:33:36 <boily> int-e: it's täneb.
00:33:52 <Taneb> int-e, but with the stress on the e?
00:34:05 <shachaf> int-e: made it work without KindSignatures hth
00:34:17 <int-e> shachaf: don't brag, show code.
00:35:24 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/OerGADT.hs
00:36:27 <oerjan> boily: he's not very hard to google hth
00:36:57 <int-e> shachaf: I can't believe the compiler goes along with that :P
00:37:08 <shachaf> You can pass a "p Maybe" argument instead of the q constraint if you prefer.
00:37:17 <boily> oerjan: Catherine Margaret Shachaf?
00:37:49 <oerjan> ...are you getting different results from me, that would be so google
00:38:01 <shachaf> why would you expect google to work the same way everywhere
00:38:15 <int-e> shachaf: on the other hand it's exactly how Typeable thinks about it: Proxy Proxy is obviously the same as Proxy Proxy.
00:38:22 <oerjan> shachaf: i shall take the use of half my name as permission to upload hth
00:39:18 <oerjan> shachaf: um that version has the crash bug
00:39:25 <boily> oerjan: no, there's this wikipédia result in the middle of the page.
00:39:33 <shachaf> oerjan: i didn't actually run it hth
00:39:35 <oerjan> or rather "weird number printed" bug
00:39:51 <boily> shachaf: fyi, your twitter profile is the first hit here, then your linked in profile.
00:39:54 <shachaf> but i'm p. sure you could make it work
00:40:11 <shachaf> are you following me on twitter btw
00:43:37 <boily> I had a twitter account for a grand total of ten minutes.
00:44:47 <shachaf> oerjan: are you making it work or did you give up
00:45:05 <oerjan> i think you are overestimating my speed
00:45:20 <arjanb> oh yet another ghc bug?
00:45:42 <oerjan> arjanb: no, just finding a different way to exploit the same one
00:45:46 <shachaf> Same bug, different constraints.
00:45:52 <oerjan> using GADTs instead of TypeFamilies
00:47:23 <shachaf> just do B :: (p ~ Proxy, q ~ p Maybe) => X a b (a -> b) (Proxy p)
00:47:27 <Sgeo> So far my hearburn has lasted: almost 3 days
00:47:38 <shachaf> i was a bit suspicious that that wasn't working in the first place
00:48:13 <Taneb> Sgeo, seek medical help?
00:48:33 <Sgeo> Taneb: I'm going to see a doctor on Saturday. Hopefully this isn't so urgent that days matter
00:49:05 <Taneb> Sgeo, I hope you are OK!
00:49:17 <Sgeo> Thanks. My dad does seem confident that it's not that urgent
00:49:25 <Sgeo> Long-term if it's not resolved that would be bad, afaik
00:50:29 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/ExploitGADTsOnly.hs
00:51:23 * arjanb has given up on the soundness of ghc, the rate of new extensions is just too high
00:53:06 <elliott> oerjan: "uc = case yadda uc of" O_O
00:53:20 <elliott> oh okay, that's just using it as a proxy
00:53:33 <oerjan> elliott: blame int-e for that hth
00:53:43 <shachaf> oerjan: you're shadowing again hth
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00:53:53 <elliott> arjanb: btw, are you like an evil version of oerjan
00:53:59 <elliott> that's what your name makes me think of
00:54:07 <oerjan> he's very evil, he messes up my logreading
00:54:23 <Taneb> I should sleep soon
00:54:28 <oerjan> shachaf: not my code hth
00:54:50 <Taneb> My trying to learn category theory is confusing me
00:54:56 <boily> Taneb: nonsense. today isn't a prime number.
00:55:20 <Taneb> boily, it's semiprime so I need to semisleep
00:55:50 <boily> right, you live in the future.
00:55:58 <int-e> shachaf: in your code, B has the same kinds as A. Now if you try to force the B constructor using b :: (p ~ Proxy, q ~ p Maybe) => X a b (a -> a) (Proxy p); b = B, then ghc complains that * and * -> * don't match; it has already decided on the kinds when checking the type declaration. So you run into the problem of weak kind inference that I hinted at.
00:56:40 <shachaf> int-e: that's why i updated it hth
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00:57:43 <int-e> elliott: wait what's the complaint there?
00:58:02 <int-e> "uc = case yadda uc of"
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00:58:29 <int-e> I was expecting raised eyebrows for "a b u t" but not for that.
00:58:33 <elliott> int-e: I was worried it would be terrifying and circular
00:58:39 <elliott> like yadda wouldn't just ignore its argument
00:58:47 <oerjan> int-e: i was wondering about the u a bit...
00:59:42 <shachaf> int-e: i fixed it and uploaded the fix to oerjan's server hth
00:59:58 <int-e> shachaf: I found it already
01:00:14 * elliott bets there's some way to do this without any extensions
01:00:26 <int-e> elliott: "(In case you wonder, the knot-tying is for avoiding ScopedTypeVariables)"
01:00:36 <shachaf> You can't match on Refl without GADTs or TypeFamilies.
01:00:41 <oerjan> i added a comment that it doesn't work in GHCi
01:00:58 <elliott> you can probably write ecast with just Typeable or something
01:01:08 <elliott> at least a restricted version
01:01:40 <int-e> elliott: I'll say it isn't possible and wait for shachaf or oerjan to prove me wrong :P
01:01:59 <shachaf> I think it'll be pretty tricky without extensions.
01:02:17 <shachaf> Since you can't even use the "(:~:) is already defined" trick.
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01:03:19 <elliott> I'm admittedly kind of confused how you cause the kind confusion without polykinds
01:03:28 <int-e> oerjan: oh you can drop the NOINLINE on yadda
01:03:29 <elliott> oh, do you rely on (:~:) being polykinded?
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01:03:47 * elliott sighs at GHC's notion of "not using an extension"
01:03:59 <elliott> being able to write (C :: T Int, C :: T []) and claim it's not polykinded...
01:04:32 <int-e> elliott: it has similar weird ideas about overlapping instances, hth
01:04:36 <oerjan> this means i'm wondering a bit how much of this works after they introduced the new "only infer types that can be written" rule
01:04:57 <oerjan> which will be in 7.10 iirc
01:05:03 <elliott> so what is the trick to get the TypeReps identical, use type variables for the arguments or something?
01:05:21 <oerjan> elliott: it's that typereps contain no kind information
01:06:03 <shachaf> Well, it would be a bit odd for polykinded Proxy not to be usable without turning on polykinds.
01:06:07 <elliott> okay so the main thing is deriving (Proxy :: *) :~: (Proxy :: * -> *)
01:06:14 <elliott> as in, that's the core bug
01:06:20 <elliott> you can do that with just kindsignatures right?
01:06:23 <shachaf> You need an extra level of Proxy.
01:06:50 <elliott> I was assuming a polykinded :~:
01:06:51 <int-e> and you can't have Proxy :: *
01:06:52 <Sgeo> Some package loading things in Javascript -almost- look like Applicatives if you squint
01:06:59 <shachaf> Even polykinded :~: doesn't support two different kinds
01:08:13 <int-e> oerjan: when was that rule introduced?
01:08:14 <elliott> I like how you have to write (:~:) a b
01:08:27 <int-e> only to avoid TypeOperators
01:10:05 <elliott> is polykinded "type K a b = b" anywhere
01:10:11 <int-e> oerjan: can you do that for ExploitGADT too?
01:10:38 <HackEgo> Thanks, haskell. Thaskell.
01:12:20 <oerjan> int-e: i've been seeing the rule in "what's up for 7.10" lists
01:14:55 <elliott> is there a way to make ghc annotate kinds
01:15:00 <elliott> instead of just saying Proxy Proxy when you :t
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01:16:32 <int-e> oerjan: the 'u' type is the 'unsafe' one of course ;)
01:16:41 <elliott> anyway I seem to have something fun
01:16:54 <elliott> but I'm not sure I can exploit it yet
01:17:09 <elliott> I have Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *) :~: Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *) with zero extensions, at least
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01:19:07 <oerjan> yeah only Typeable and cast give you that
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01:19:21 <elliott> right. and the hard part is leveraging that into something exploitable, right?
01:19:28 <elliott> since you need a way to "case" on the kind
01:19:46 <elliott> maybe instead of using Proxy you could use (:~:) again...
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01:20:40 <int-e> there's an open question whether MultiParamTypeClasses is strong enough for that.
01:20:43 <oerjan> elliott: our exploits so far have needed something non-parametric/non-representational
01:21:28 <elliott> oerjan: it feels like that isn't necessarily true if you can use something more useful than Proxy though...
01:22:13 <int-e> Which let you express injectivity, but somehow not exploit it to full extent. (With class Foo a b | a -> b, given Foo a b and Foo a b', the compiler will not deduce that b = b')
01:23:38 <elliott> I am wondering if you can just use typeclasses here
01:24:10 <elliott> like let's say there is class Convenient (a :: k) b | a -> b where foo :: proxy a -> b in the stdlib
01:24:22 <elliott> then you can instance Convenient OneProxy (Int -> Int) where ...
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01:24:33 <elliott> and instance Convenient TheOtherProxy (Int -> Char) where ...
01:24:50 <elliott> and turn something that takes the latter instance into something that takes the former. or something.
01:24:56 <elliott> that's obviously still a bunch of extensions
01:25:05 <elliott> but you probably don't need all that machinery...
01:25:38 <elliott> int-e: I did read, but I'm not sure you need that here?
01:26:07 <oerjan> i recall int-e tried to make it work with MPTCs but hit a snag
01:26:09 <elliott> I was thinking more ... => (forall ... . Convenient OneProxy b => b -> r) -> ...something...
01:26:18 <int-e> given an instance Convenient TheOtherProxy (Int -> c), how do you get c = Char?
01:26:55 <int-e> which is what I wrote, with a = TheOtherProxy, b = (Int -> Int) and b' = (Int -> c).
01:28:36 <elliott> I'm not even sure what my idea was at this point
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01:49:42 <shachaf> oerjan: lbexploits/ may be a bad name for something that only works for compiled code hth
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01:50:55 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i realized that directory was badly named the second after i first pasted a link to it hth
01:51:07 * elliott endorses https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:19
01:51:41 <shachaf> goldfire seems to be reasonable, yes
01:56:27 <oerjan> shachaf: int-e: moved the directory to http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/TypeableExploits/ hth
01:57:48 <oerjan> which means i now actually have a haskell/ directory
01:58:53 <HackEgo> 1124) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half \ 1222) <Taneb> ...my university's Scandinavian Society is having a trip to IKEA
01:59:42 <oerjan> now we ask: which of those quotes is more disturbing hth
02:00:19 <shachaf> was adding hth to the end of that sentence really necessary
02:00:57 <int-e> oerjan: ok, sanitized a bit: http://lpaste.net/7665531722934517760
02:01:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i promise i didn't read your lambdabot message first hth
02:01:10 <int-e> oerjan: I also tested it on ghc head; it works just like that.
02:01:59 <shachaf> int-e: Why does reflP need that odd signature?
02:02:03 <shachaf> You're not forcing p's kind there.
02:02:37 <shachaf> I guess it's just for consistency.
02:02:52 <int-e> shachaf: I wanted some symmetry between the two proxy, so one is Proxy p throughout and the other one is Proxy q throughout
02:03:05 <shachaf> using p Proxy to force p's kind to be (* -> *) -> * is fishy hth
02:07:15 <oerjan> uploaded as http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/TypeableExploits/ExploitGADTsOnly2.hs
02:08:14 <shachaf> why is oerjan getting less credit anyway
02:08:25 <oerjan> shachaf: i can fix that hth
02:08:31 <shachaf> casting (:~:) is p. clever
02:08:46 <oerjan> also maybe i should sanitize the file names now that it's moved
02:09:03 <int-e> The document you were looking for (http://oerjan.nvg.org/lbexploits/) couldn't be found.
02:09:48 <shachaf> oerjan: the shadows are back hth
02:09:52 <int-e> (noticed the new URL)
02:11:50 <shachaf> also ecast makes less sense now that type E = (:~:) is gone
02:12:23 <int-e> it's still an equality-cast
02:12:56 <Sgeo> Is sodium good?
02:17:01 <elliott> sodium is my favourite thing in the universe. it is the only thing I can truly love
02:17:01 <int-e> Na is pretty bad, very reactive. From what I'm reading NaHCO_3 can reduce acid in stomach for short periods, but is not good in the long term; the stomach will just produce more acid to compensate.
02:17:18 <elliott> oh is the question more specific than it seems. ok
02:17:36 * Sgeo meant the FRP library
02:17:43 <Sgeo> *series of libraries
02:18:05 <shachaf> you didn't mean libsodium?
02:18:29 <elliott> that's. I actually feel trolled
02:18:45 <elliott> because I was like "is this a programming thing" and I was like "no sgeo was talking about... food and salt and stuff lately... it's probably the actual thing"
02:18:58 <int-e> elliott: yes, hence my reply
02:18:59 <elliott> because I KNOW the FRP library and that was my first thought but it seemed unlikely to be that on second thought
02:19:04 * Sgeo did not intend to troll
02:19:08 <int-e> elliott: so that makes two of us :)
02:19:19 <Sgeo> Although, now that int-e mentions it, is Tums likely to be similar in being bad long term?
02:19:44 <int-e> Sgeo: I'll go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps you don't have any stomach trouble at all and just set us up for this misunderstanding. Now that would be great trolling.
02:19:57 <oerjan> shachaf: fixed. also completely renamed all files hth
02:19:58 <elliott> that would be very elaborate
02:20:10 <int-e> Sgeo: I don't believe that. But it would be impressive :)
02:20:27 <shachaf> oerjan: how come /haskell isn't linked from the home page hth
02:21:44 <shachaf> oerjan: why isn't there one that just uses TypeFamilies + DeriveDataTypeable and just works
02:24:37 <oerjan> shachaf: because almost nothing in my website is linked properly hth
02:25:05 <oerjan> a lot of the stuff in esoteric/ can only be reached via the wiki
02:25:18 <int-e> You're better than me, I don't even have a homepage on my server.
02:25:22 <oerjan> and some probably has no external links at all
02:25:44 <oerjan> int-e: well technically it's not my server
02:25:53 <shachaf> fortunately you linked to it in the logs so google will find it hth
02:26:05 <oerjan> yep, the logs may be another place
02:26:40 <int-e> oerjan: see xkcd, hth
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02:27:06 <int-e> the still-current one
02:27:43 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/1475/ for future reference
02:28:01 <Sgeo> People could read the logs far in the future someday. Some chance.
02:28:13 <shachaf> fortunately the logs have a timestamp hth
02:28:18 <oerjan> i think some people do
02:28:55 <int-e> oerjan: hmm. when was https://xkcd.com/1174/ published?
02:29:16 <int-e> (somehow, mapping dates to xkcd numbers and back is not exactly trivial)
02:29:37 <oerjan> int-e: i was going to comment on that
02:29:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Morgan-Mar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41707&oldid=7984 * SuperJedi224 * (+150)
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02:31:59 <oerjan> shachaf: wow so you first have to find the title from the page, then find the title in the archive (which seems to be mirror imaged)
02:32:29 <oerjan> ok at least the link gives the number too
02:32:35 <int-e> Has IWC been discontinued? What's the status of a webcomic that's only doing reruns?
02:32:43 <int-e> (but with comments?)
02:32:49 <oerjan> int-e: well he's still doing sunday annotations
02:33:25 <int-e> I'm wondering about our latest wiki edit.
02:33:40 <int-e> I also thought that Darth and Droids was a collaboration thing
02:33:57 <int-e> One more typo and I'll go to bed.
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02:35:42 <int-e> Oh well, whatever. I'll heed the warning of https://xkcd.com/386/ ... good night.
02:35:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Morgan-Mar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41708&oldid=41707 * Oerjan * (+16) truthify
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04:48:42 <APic> What does it look like?
04:50:06 <Lilax> http://nuttygod.tumblr.com/post/108699018985/a-collab-with-animestuckneko-we-did-for-an-art
04:50:22 <Lilax> This is muh tumblr
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04:54:03 <Lilax> Its for an art final
04:54:21 <Lilax> And I think I did good?
04:56:16 <oerjan> ANIME ANIME EVERYWHERE AAAAAAAAA
04:57:21 <HackEgo> [U+24B6 CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A]
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05:50:50 <Sgeo> shachaf: When Prismata raids come out, if they're suitable for mixed skill, I would play in a raid with you
05:58:27 <shachaf> Sgeo: my skill is not particularly high hth
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06:39:31 <Sgeo> I assume Tums 'don't take maximum dose for more than 2 weeks' is to stop people from not seeing the doctor because Tums covers symptons
06:40:12 <Sgeo> I assume BaconJS flatMap() is >>=, most functions called flatMap are probably bind. But what about flatMapLatest, is that a legal monadic bind, or does using it for a monad break monad laws
06:42:32 <Sgeo> Just took 4 Tums. It's like my esophagus is trying to have heartburn but failing
06:42:52 <Sgeo> this : heartburn :: nausea : vomiting
06:44:37 <APic> Buuuuuuuuuurntime!
06:44:41 <APic> Was a nice Game in the Past.
06:44:45 <APic> By some Austrians.
06:44:56 <Sgeo> Also, what is it with FRP and food
06:45:09 <APic> Who, i believe, are vaguely related to the Australians in Australia, who got sent as Prisonfnord by teh™ American Stuffs.
06:45:18 <APic> WHAT YOU SAY !!
06:45:50 <oerjan> i think your history needs work hth
06:45:52 <Sgeo> Also, if there is ever an Alcohol FRP library, I assume APic uses it
06:46:58 <APic> I do not know for sure.
06:47:00 <oerjan> Sgeo: perhaps it's derived from that bananas, lenses and barbed wire thing?
06:47:17 * oerjan never actually read that
06:47:44 * Sgeo mails oerjan an explanation
06:47:48 <APic> Did You mean that Sgeo Chap}
06:48:01 <oerjan> APic: no i meant you for the history hth
06:48:02 <APic> Not my Deb{,t,d,…
06:48:18 <Sgeo> (All I know is that that thing you're referring to also mentions envelopes
07:01:42 <zzo38> Do you have any new puzzles for Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering?
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07:08:45 <Sgeo> "Change behavior for selected AST nodes. *All assignments. *This message send"
07:08:51 <Sgeo> Does this mean monad syntax implementable?
07:08:58 <Sgeo> http://www.slideshare.net/MarcusDenker/2013-fosdempharo4
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07:59:14 <zzo38> I don't like the new basic lands with no text. My opinion is it should include the explicit mana ability, but written using italics and parentheses instead of the old way.
07:59:57 <zzo38> What are "shock" lands?
08:00:37 <shachaf> The lands that enter tapped if you don't pay 2 life.
08:01:19 <zzo38> Yes like that, but only one color of mana and no text other than that reminder text.
08:01:43 <callforjudgement> there are really only four groups of land that matter in eternal formats (not counting land that is only used as part of a combo)
08:02:10 <zzo38> callforjudgement: Which is what?
08:02:33 <zzo38> Also what are the eternal formats?
08:02:48 <callforjudgement> shock lands (CARDNAME comes into play tapped unless you pay 2 life, have two basic land types); fetch lands (T, sacrifice CARDNAME, pay 1 life: search your library for an X or Y land card, where X and Y are basic land types); dual lands (have two basic land types, no drawbacks, only legal in Legacy and Vintage); and Wasteland and Strip Mine
08:03:09 <callforjudgement> an eternal format is a format which doesn't have a rule that all cards older than a certain number of sets are automatically illegal
08:03:58 <zzo38> Well, in puzzle formats any card is potentially useful
08:03:58 <shachaf> That's not eternal. Right.
08:04:01 <shachaf> I guess I haven't seen many eternal format games.
08:04:13 <callforjudgement> but you run like 6 shock lands and use fetchlands for the rest
08:04:16 <zzo38> Although I suppose puzzle format isn't an official format anyways.
08:04:31 <shachaf> http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Eternal_(format) says Modern isn't eternal
08:04:45 <shachaf> Anyway you've clarified what you meant so it doesn't matter.
08:05:09 <zzo38> Also any Limited format won't need such a rule either, since it is redundant.
08:05:42 <callforjudgement> shachaf: Wizards consider Modern to be internal, so do most people I've seen discussing Magic
08:05:45 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
08:05:56 <ais523> actually, this has lead to a huge row recently
08:06:03 <ais523> with Birthing Pod being banned in Modern
08:06:16 <ais523> the problem being that it was the cheapest tier 1 Modern deck
08:06:17 <shachaf> Birthing Pod was banned in Modern?
08:06:31 <shachaf> It used to be very popular, didn't it?
08:06:35 <ais523> and many of the people who bought it can't afford to change to a different deck because all the viable ones are more expensive
08:06:40 <shachaf> Oh, I guess this was just two days ago.
08:06:41 <ais523> and yes, like 20-30% of the metagame
08:06:43 <ais523> that's why it got banned
08:06:45 <ais523> and yes, just two days ago
08:06:48 <zzo38> What formats are you playing anyways?
08:06:58 <ais523> I follow Legacy, though, and other formats to a lesser extent
08:07:14 <ais523> but Lorwyn was so bad that I stopped playing Magic, and nothing since has tempted me back
08:07:51 <zzo38> I think I have played a Lorwyn draft once or twice
08:09:02 <zzo38> As well as later sets
08:09:20 <zzo38> Although I rarely play the game at all and am mostly interested in Magic: the Puzzling
08:11:05 <shachaf> Is it the case that most cards that were good for a Birthing Pod deck are now useless?
08:11:09 <shachaf> Other than lands, I suppose.
08:11:46 <ais523> actually, the problem is that some of them are now useless (mostly tutor targets), and others are still useful but the only tier 1 deck they fit in requires about $1000 worth of cards that aren't in Pod
08:11:57 <shachaf> whoa, they banned Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time
08:13:23 <shachaf> "tutor" means Birthing Pod's ability, right?
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08:14:49 <ais523> shachaf: "tutor" is any effect that lets you access specific cards from a deck
08:14:59 <ais523> Pod's ability is one of those, it was one of the better ones in Modern
08:15:07 <ais523> (it's named after the first several cards to have that ability)
08:16:52 <ais523> shachaf: also I wonder how much you'd have been laughed like six months ago if you told someone that Modern, Legacy and Vintage would all be broken by an 8-mana common in the next set
08:16:59 <zzo38> But in a Limited game that uses really old cards, then any land might be used
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08:17:47 <zzo38> ais523: Is there such a card?
08:18:01 <ais523> zzo38: Treasure Cruise
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08:18:20 <ais523> that was crazy common, the ban is much less controversial than the ban of Birthing Pod
08:18:35 <shachaf> Well, it has CMC 8, but so does Scornful Egotist
08:18:40 <ais523> because most people thought it would happen (there's widespread disagreement on whether people thought it was necessary, but it was predicted to happen)
08:18:52 <shachaf> It doesn't really reflect on the way the card is used.
08:18:54 <ais523> yes but Scornful Egotist sucks ;-)
08:19:13 <shachaf> Did it have a big influence on Vintage?
08:19:14 <zzo38> It still can't be used to force your opponent to draw three cards though like Ancestral Recall which you can use on yourself or opponent.
08:20:00 <ais523> shachaf: there aren't that many Vintage tournaments, but yes
08:20:19 <ais523> also Vintage has a policy of restricting anything that looks even approximately like good blue card draw/filtering
08:20:26 <ais523> because it's particularly there because Vintage has so many broken cards
08:20:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I doubt Ancestral Recall is used that way very often except in Magic: The Puzzling.
08:21:54 <ais523> you could use it as a response to Enter the Infinite, but I don't think that's widely played in Vintage
08:21:58 <ais523> because there are so many other things you could be doing
08:22:04 <ais523> and Recall isn't legal anywhere else
08:22:58 <shachaf> zzo38: If you're being controlled by e.g. Mindslaver, Ancestral Recall is worse.
08:23:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes in that case your opponent can make the choice for you
08:24:06 <ais523> most decks which play Mindslaver have some method to play it every turn
08:24:11 <ais523> at which point, they've pretty much won
08:24:19 <zzo38> But if you are being controlled by Mindslaver, Demonic Consultation is *far* worse than Ancestral Recall!
08:24:29 <shachaf> Is there a card that says you can choose targets for all your opponent's spells?
08:24:44 <ais523> Gleemax, but it's silver-bordered
08:24:49 <zzo38> In Unhinged there is
08:24:55 <zzo38> But it costs one million mana
08:25:02 <shachaf> Oh, right, I have seen that before.
08:25:22 <shachaf> OK, Worst Fears, not Mindslaver.
08:25:43 <ais523> I'm not sure any deck plays Worst Fears
08:26:12 <ais523> I think the main reason it's there is for the creature in the same set that gives the opponent the choice of making it bigger or letting the creature's controller cast an instant or sorcery for free
08:26:16 <ais523> "what's the worst that could happen"
08:26:55 <ais523> (in Draft, not a lot, unless you draft both those specific cards and happen to have them in hand at the same time)
08:27:27 <shachaf> Ah, that would explain the name.
08:28:32 <zzo38> What card is the creature in the same set that gives the opponent the choice of making it bigger or letting the creature's controller cast an instant or sorcery for free?
08:29:02 <ais523> shouldn't be too hard to search for
08:31:13 <zzo38> But, why do they always make tribute like that? Can't you make something like: Unleash, Tribute 2
08:31:37 <shachaf> What do you mean, "like that"?
08:31:58 <zzo38> I mean things that says "if the tribute cost is not paid"
08:32:08 <zzo38> (Well, it isn't a cost actually)
08:32:53 <ais523> zzo38: Wizards don't like to mix abilities belonging to different sets
08:33:17 <ais523> Unleash was an RTR block ability, so Wizards would be unlikely to put it into Theros which is the very next block
08:33:24 <ais523> most abilities are given a break before returning
08:33:27 <shachaf> If an effect tells you to "distribute so-and-so many jams among creatures", does that let you cancel out tribute jams?
08:33:52 <ais523> shachaf: it cancels out Unleash ability-to-block, and everything that counts +1/+1 counters specifically, though
08:34:05 <ais523> Tribute doesn't count +1/+1 counters, it just remembers whether the opponent paid
08:34:46 <zzo38> ais523: OK, although I still like to try to make up unofficial cards that can mix up such things
08:35:17 <shachaf> Huh, only 13 cards have Unleash.
08:35:50 <ais523> shachaf: this is common for block-specific mechanics
08:36:14 <ais523> often, the designers decide that, while keeping to within their normal limits for mechanical use, they couldn't create much more interestingly distinct cards than that
08:37:34 <zzo38> I like to try to make entirely different designs, combining keyword abilities that were never combined before, using keyword abilities that are officially only on creatures on non-creature cards too, etc
08:38:11 <zzo38> And also "enchant attacking creature"
08:39:03 <ais523> with Flash, presumably? what benefit does that have over making an Instant?
08:39:26 <zzo38> No it doesn't have flash, but it does have ninjutsu.
08:39:31 <ais523> it has at least one drawback (enhancing toughness doesn't help much)
08:40:33 <shachaf> Is there a card that makes you distribute jams among creatures controlled by opponents?
08:41:10 <ais523> probably not, Wizards doesn't like drawback cards
08:41:17 <ais523> because most of their players don't enjoy playing them
08:41:53 <zzo38> I made up a land with ninjutsu, a Aura with ninjutsu, and a instant with ninjutsu. (I also made up a creature that has both ninjutsu and defender.)
08:43:01 <shachaf> What does Ninjutsu mean on those cards?
08:43:29 <ais523> shachaf: "you can return an attacking creature to your hand and pay CARDNAME's ninjitsu cost to place CARDNAME into play tapped and attacking"
08:43:49 <ais523> zzo38: an instant with ninjutsu doesn't work
08:43:55 <shachaf> Right, but what does it mean to place an instant on the battlefield tapped and attacking?
08:44:00 <ais523> you can't place instants into play via any means but Manifest
08:44:07 <ais523> and that was added like a few weeks ago
08:44:17 <zzo38> I believe that an instant will stay in your hand but still return the attacking creature, and that the other non-creatures will be tapped but not attacking because they can't be attacking.
08:44:25 <ais523> before, I could have made the absolute statement that you can't place instants into play at all
08:44:34 <ais523> (technically "onto the battlefield" but I dislike that terminology)
08:44:50 <ais523> zzo38: no, the ninjutsu/defender card is legal within the rules and does attack
08:44:54 <zzo38> And for an aura, I think, if it comes into play due to a reason other than resolving, its controller now must choose what it enchants.
08:45:09 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that one does attack, I know that.
08:45:12 <ais523> defender stops a card attacking, it doesn't stop it being created in an attacking sate
08:45:28 <shachaf> A land can be a creature, but I don't know if zzo38's land is a creature.
08:45:33 <zzo38> But the one with defender is the only one of these that does attack.
08:45:34 <ais523> this is why Flash Foliage is so hilarious
08:45:40 <zzo38> All the rest aren't creatures.
08:45:41 <shachaf> And I don't think an aura can attack at all (but maybe with zzo38's modified rules it can).
08:45:45 <ais523> it can block anything it can target, because it creates a creature in a blocking state
08:45:52 <shachaf> It seems like an abuse of the Ninjutsu mechanic to do that.
08:45:59 <ais523> thus getting around all protections against creatures becoming blocking
08:46:11 <ais523> shachaf: an aura that's a creature can attack just fine (but it can't enchant things)
08:46:18 <zzo38> Even with my modified rules an aura can't attack
08:46:23 <ais523> you might need humility or the like to stop it dying due to not being attached
08:46:38 <shachaf> Ah, I suppose that can work.
08:46:40 <zzo38> (Unless it is a creature, but like I said none of these cards are creatures except for the one having defender)
08:47:10 <ais523> you can make basically anything into a creature if you try hard enough
08:47:17 <shachaf> Is there an aura that has a tap ability?
08:47:29 <shachaf> Ah, there's one in Future Sight.
08:47:31 <ais523> (and in cases other than instant/sorcery, you don't even have to cheat with manifest/ixidron)
08:48:04 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, Wizards are careful to avoid situation where enchantments get tapped, partly to distinguish them from artifacts, partly because people keep tapping them along with things they enchant
08:48:09 <ais523> even though the rules say you don't do that
08:48:23 <ais523> and future sight tried to break as many rules like that that Wizards could think of
08:48:40 <zzo38> They didn't try hard enough.
08:48:52 <ais523> they only had limited space in the set
08:50:47 <ais523> zzo38 would probably like the creature with haste and defender
08:50:53 <ais523> actually, future sight wanted to do combinations of mechanics
08:51:01 <ais523> so it used mechanics from the previous block (ravnica block)
08:51:13 <ais523> on the basis that most people would already know how they worked
08:51:23 <ais523> and that apparently confused enough people that they decided not to do it again
08:51:26 <zzo38> I did a lot more stuff though
08:51:43 <shachaf> zzo38: You should get your cards printed.
08:51:55 <zzo38> I don't intend to print them.
08:52:22 <zzo38> They don't even form a set. But if some are used in a set, then they can be decided rarity within the set and then printed so that you can make up a draft or sealed.
08:52:48 <zzo38> (The picture and flavor text would also be decided within the set.)
08:53:05 <ais523> shachaf: you have to mix it with some of the cards produced by Alex Churchill's random card generator
08:53:37 <zzo38> (And of course the set may include cards from previous official or unofficial sets too, or if you don't, draft multiple sets at once)
08:53:46 <ais523> huh, these cards actually look sensible
08:53:59 <ais523> maybe the land's a little overpowered
08:54:01 <shachaf> "If you would gain life, instead that player may search his or her library for a creature card, reveal it, and put it into his or her hand. If that player does, that player shuffles that library afterwards."
08:54:02 <zzo38> ais523: I think I also made up a random Magic: the Gathering card generator, but not very good
08:54:06 <shachaf> Which cards look sensible?
08:54:17 <ais523> shachaf: the ones in my latest random generation
08:54:25 <ais523> that I can't link to because the URL gives a new set every time you follow it
08:54:30 <zzo38> So Alex Churchill's one might be better
08:55:00 <ais523> (the land is ETB tapped; T: add W to mana pool; 1, T: add BB to mana pool; discard two cards: discard target nonblack creature)
08:55:19 <zzo38> Although maybe I should add a random number seed option into FurryScript so that if anyone makes such a thing with FurryScript then it is possible to link in that way.
08:55:22 <ais523> aha, it's in view source
08:55:31 <shachaf> But I'm not sure how to get it to use a particular seed.
08:56:06 <ais523> oh good, it's not seeding from time
08:56:21 <ais523> was worried that was the actual time for the moment
08:56:30 <ais523> because I miscounted the digits
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09:12:55 <ais523> shachaf: http://www.toothycat.net/wiki/bnf.pl?page=AlexChurchill/MagicCardGenerator&seed=330275099
09:12:59 <ais523> just guessed the URL syntax
09:13:27 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, *destroy* target nonblack creature.
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09:35:16 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.3 Is this puzzle correct? Is it busted or cooked?
09:35:19 <b_jonas> heh, defender+ninjutsu sounds funny
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09:35:59 <shachaf> zzo38: What does busted or cooked mean?
09:37:24 <zzo38> Busted means it has no valid solution, and cooked means it has unintended solution(s).
09:39:02 <b_jonas> hehe, "(it's named after the first several cards to have that ability)" -- actually, they still call it "tutor" on new cards like Diabolic Tutor
09:40:09 <shachaf> And what does correct mean?
09:40:57 <b_jonas> wait, it's version 3 now? did you finish version 2? or abanadon it?
09:41:23 <b_jonas> oh, that's an entirely different puzzle
09:41:49 <b_jonas> and a complicated one with lots of different cards, wow
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09:44:49 <shachaf> What's the goal of the puzzle?
09:45:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: win the game, I think
09:45:44 <shachaf> Ah, not "in some number of turns" or anything, just guarantee a victory.
09:46:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, but unlike chess, in M:tG puzzles you usually have to do that very fast
09:46:53 <b_jonas> because if you let the opponent have a turn with unknown cards in his library, he usually has a theoretic possibility to win, unless you used some very strong effects such as prevent him to draw a card and empty his hand
09:47:07 <b_jonas> so probably you have to win or at least go off in your turn
09:48:00 <b_jonas> you want to guarantee win, not just make it likely as you'd do in a real game
09:49:01 <zzo38> Unless it says it is probabilistic, you should assume it is to guarantee win
09:49:49 <b_jonas> (the puzzle could give some other goal of course)
09:50:11 <zzo38> Yes it could, although this one doesn't.
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10:48:28 <zzo38> Did you study this puzzle?
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11:47:55 <int-e> b_jonas: well, the magic "turn" is a fleshed out two-player game.
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12:04:32 <Jafet> Google adword: "Haskell Fasttrack course \ www.skillsmatter.com/ \ Learn Haskell, its Type System, IO Polymorphism & testing, Jan 29-30th"
12:05:54 <Jafet> Must be the latest paradigm
12:06:33 <int-e> Is that when you create an forall a. IORef a to implement unsafeCoerce from unsafePerformIO?
12:07:23 <int-e> (It could be a missing comma. But really IO is rather oddly placed on that list.)
12:07:46 * boily tries to tabcomplete fungot's name. tab. tab tab. TAB TAB TAB.
12:07:52 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
12:10:45 <fizzie> There was some internet hiccup back home.
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12:11:55 <boily> fungot: hello sailor!
12:11:56 <fungot> boily: but if i did i'd use essence.
12:12:10 <boily> fungot: straight to the point, I see.
12:12:11 <fungot> boily: did you eat lunch yet?" " gee thanks for the translation to bytecode. i can rescale it as needed) as opposed to violently slaying me because i haven't gotten a new one
12:12:46 <boily> fungot: only breakfast. but enough of small talk. I wanted to ask you about IO Polymorphism.
12:12:46 <fungot> boily: i forgot the key combination following it determines the structure of scheme's syntax.
12:13:02 <boily> fungot: ah, polymorphism between languages. whatever that is?
12:13:02 <fungot> boily: in plt-scheme, there is a way ppl hide and made excuses for their shitty actions: http://mitpress.mit.edu/ sicp/ full-text/ book/ fnord exercise 3.3.2
12:13:24 <boily> fungot: so IO Polymorphism is buzzword compliant?
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12:27:44 <Jander> int-e / b_jonas - I can report the the Lego BF interpreter works :-) However, the paper tape drive needs revisiting - over the course of several [] iterations the tape slipped too much resulting in mis-reads :-(
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12:31:45 <mroman> I just realized that if you generate enough random pictures you'll eventually end up at previously unseen nudes of celebrities
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12:32:08 <mroman> Would that classify as an invasion of privacy?
12:32:12 <int-e> "Implementing a randomized Turing Machine"
12:32:40 <mroman> The corresponding paper is called "Using genetic algorithms to generate previously unseen nudes of celebrities"
12:34:05 <mroman> how many random images can a computer generate...
12:34:07 <Jafet> You got me, I actually did a search for that paper
12:34:17 <mroman> Jafet: You're kidding, right?
12:34:33 <int-e> Tricky, but it's not really privacty that's at stake here.
12:34:38 <Jafet> Better write it now, while the title still has SEO value.
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12:35:45 <int-e> In fact it might improve privacy if nobody could tell the difference between real nude pictures and the fake ones.
12:36:04 <Jafet> Jander: presumably a paper tape machine would use punched tape
12:36:28 <b_jonas> Jander: thanks for the report back
12:36:43 <Jander> Jafet - mine uses coloured rectangles.
12:36:58 <mroman> So the strategy here is to take a nude of yourself
12:37:04 <mroman> then modify it in 100 versions
12:37:30 <Jafet> I don't understand what game is to be won using this strategy
12:37:43 <Jander> b_jonas, I doubt I'll get time to redesign the pinch-roller components tonight, but once it works I'll video it :-) I had it merrily working on multiplying 4x3 but when it hit the 3rd time around the main loop the tape was too far out of sync.
12:37:48 <mroman> The chance that somebody is jerking off to the real you approaches 1/100 instead of 1
12:38:32 <Jafet> Alternatively, it is zero because they are using a picture of you, which is not you
12:38:49 <mroman> Alternatively they're jerking off to a genetic algorithm
12:38:59 <Jafet> Your mother is a genetic algorithm
12:39:57 <mroman> Ok enough of the crazy-talk
12:40:21 <mroman> the real question was actually what happens if your random machine generates something that violates patents
12:40:27 <mroman> or copyright or privacy laws or whatever
12:41:11 <Jafet> I don't know whether you can get new punched tape these days. Also I guess you'd want plastic tape if you're using dry-erase marking.
12:41:37 <mroman> Presumably nothing happens as long as you don't make use of the information or publish it
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12:41:50 <Jander> Jafet - this is just strips of cut A4 coloured in with felt tip :-)
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12:42:16 <int-e> mroman: you cannot inadvertantly violate copyright (though you may hace trouble proving that your randomly generated copy of Harry Potter is your own product). Patent law is the big evil in the IP ocean.
12:42:26 <Jafet> Patent law is pretty clear about this: it doesn't really matter what crystal ball in which lucid dream you independently derived an idea from
12:42:33 <Jafet> If it was patented before, you can't use it commercially
12:43:09 <int-e> mroman: also note that selection is part of the creative process.
12:44:22 <int-e> mroman: So if you train a neural network on Harry Potter, its results may very well become derivative works of that, though it could be fun (expensive...) to test the limits in court.
12:47:06 <Jafet> If it's anything like current chatterbot technology, you might get away with fair use on the grounds that it is a nonsensical parody of the original
12:50:37 <Jafet> But can you automatically generate nonsensical combinations of Sasha Grey films and Tatu music videos? Important research frontiers.
12:50:56 <Jafet> (Well, in this case the source materials are pretty nonsensical to begin with)
13:07:39 <mroman> also haskell.org is always sooooo slooooow
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15:24:02 <HackEgo> 230) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing. \ 481) <fungot> elliott__: my fnord into normal life was a painful and difficult process. [...] \ 524) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number
15:24:26 <HackEgo> 524) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number by simply looking at it
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16:18:36 <HackEgo> 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 848) <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot! \ 989) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows \ 995) <Bike> man at least job applications in
16:19:09 <mroman> I sure would love to know the context for 401 o_O
16:21:15 <mroman> `quote job application
16:21:16 <HackEgo> 995) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark
16:22:01 <HackEgo> 571) <Phantom_Hoover> oh god oh god <Phantom_Hoover> what if I become <Phantom_Hoover> attracted <Phantom_Hoover> to birds \ 1044) <Bike> that reminds me of a great quote about bird semen
16:22:23 <HackEgo> 74) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point. \ 1044) <Bike> that reminds me of a great quote about bird semen
16:22:44 <int-e> mroman: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-07-20.txt
16:24:27 <mroman> fwiw I never punched myself in the face
16:25:33 <mroman> how's bfjoust going btw?
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16:26:48 <mroman> It would be funnier with imps.
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16:52:21 <oren> hmm... it's been 4 months i last cleared my browser history
16:54:41 <oren> does the browser history take up memory space
16:56:13 <oren> well at least now when firefox crashes, only firefox crashes and not the whole computer
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17:19:35 <mroman> boolean random = (Math.random()*Math.random()) < Math.random();
17:19:43 <mroman> yields true in 75% of the cases
17:19:55 <mroman> I was just thinking that x*y < z
17:20:11 <mroman> x*y < z is more likely to be < z than x <z or y < z
17:20:19 <mroman> but that's as much as I got so far
17:21:29 <mroman> the only thing I got other than that is
17:21:39 <mroman> assuming x < z has P=0.5 and y < z has P=0.5
17:21:48 <mroman> then x*y < z probably has P=0.5+0.5*0.5
17:28:04 <mroman> the only thing I can say is that Math.random() has an expected value of 0.5
17:28:19 <mroman> so Math.random()*Math.random() should have an expected value of 0.25
17:28:29 <mroman> that way I can at least argue that it's supposed to be more true than false
17:30:37 <Taneb> Math.random() * Math.random() has a sqrt 0.5 chance of being less than 0.5, which is the expected value of Math.random
17:30:54 <elliott> for rand()*rand() to be 0 only one of them has to be 0
17:31:01 <elliott> whereas for it to be 1 both of them have to be
17:31:04 <elliott> *both of them have to be 1
17:31:08 <elliott> I don't know whether that's relevant at all.
17:32:22 <mroman> x*y is always smaller than x and also smaller than y
17:32:31 <oren> E(rand()*rand()) = 0.25
17:33:10 <oren> so rand() would be above it 75% of the time
17:33:58 <oren> caveat: I almost failed the last stats course I took
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17:37:48 <mroman> which I can empirically confirm
17:38:59 <elliott> <mroman> x*y is always smaller than x and also smaller than y
17:39:54 <mroman> but actually Math.random is inclusive 0 and exclusive 1
17:40:20 <elliott> this question could be answered in a second by anyone who knows any probability theory :(
17:40:54 <mroman> I only use Math.random() so I can have a program and "empirically" measure the probability
17:40:59 <mroman> because I don't know how to calculate it yet
17:42:45 <mroman> I'm interested in P(product(rand(),1,n) < product(rand(),1,k)) where 0 < rand() < 1 AND k >= n
17:45:09 <mroman> Is there a math channel :D
17:48:52 <elliott> I understand it's not a very friendly place
17:50:54 <int-e> it's a bit too crowded
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18:42:43 <mroman> Register now for more ads.
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19:15:35 <oren> So it appears that the distro of N uniform 0,1 distros' product is |(log(x))^(N-1)/(N-1)|.
19:16:46 <oren> (According to my integrations and extrapolation
19:17:44 <oren> Never mind, that's wrong
19:18:03 <oren> AHA: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniformProductDistribution.html
19:19:29 <oren> |(log(x))^(N-1)/(N-1)!|
19:25:08 <int-e> oh, density. fine...
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19:42:20 <oren> I should have studied harder when I took stats...
19:42:56 <oren> Well, that applies to virtually every course i've taken, actually
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22:53:35 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. you reminded me I had a blog.
22:55:21 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> also haskell.org is always sooooo slooooow <-- there was a reddit post on that, assuming you're referring to the wiki part, the problem is that after last year's server crash, some servers are in different data centers that really ought to be close together
22:56:35 <oerjan> @tell mroman see https://status.haskell.org/
22:56:52 <boily> Taneb: yes. got an e-mail today saying you're following me. I had completely forgot that I had some kind of thing that looks like a blog.
22:58:04 <oerjan> shachaf: ok that was even fewer than i expected
22:58:28 <shachaf> oerjan: my followers/tweet ratio is p. high hth
22:58:45 <oerjan> there seems to be a #nationalhugday somewhere
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22:59:10 <boily> http://pfcuttle.tumblr.com/post/3969325727/un-petit-peu-special-pour-un-valeur-donnee-de ← what the hell was I doing back then... anybody can help me recall?
22:59:59 <oerjan> sorry, it's all french to me hth
23:00:37 <boily> translated: A little bit special. (For some value of “little”)
23:00:47 <Taneb> boily, puts me in mind of Marble Hornets
23:01:24 <boily> ah, marble hornets. I watched a few random ones yesterday night ^^
23:01:42 <oerjan> boily: is this your latest revenge for my hemsktmyckethej tdnh also all sound clips should have a time bar so you can see whether you have any chance of bearing the rest of that crap (i didn't)
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23:02:21 <boily> no, still searching; I agree; it's not very long.
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23:02:44 <elliott> oerjan: it does have a time bar
23:03:11 <oerjan> oh so it does. very sublte.
23:03:14 <elliott> a line and some shading moves across the player bar
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23:03:58 <oerjan> nope still cannot bear it hth
23:04:57 <boily> hm. even the 'got is stumped.
23:06:22 <oerjan> fungot: please be kind and answer boily twh
23:06:22 <fungot> oerjan: maybe tomorrow i'll host the comments on fnord
23:06:49 <boily> the Fnord Message Board. the Fnoard.
23:07:07 <boily> and stop being sentient, you vile fungot.
23:07:07 <fungot> boily: why not generalize for any cube size? i don't believe any of it. i think. i'm not sure
23:07:25 <boily> fungot: auditive generalized cubes?
23:07:25 <fungot> boily: this text is fnord for people like me, wants mrv gone". otoh, he's been using that too
23:07:37 <boily> fungot: you are not people.
23:07:37 <fungot> boily: fnord the background and talks.
23:08:07 <boily> elliott: thanks :)
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23:15:21 <oerjan> <elliott> this question could be answered in a second by anyone who knows any probability theory :( <-- oren is essentially right but i think you need to integrate to prove that equation hth
23:16:08 <oerjan> \int_0^1 \int_0^1 x y dx dy
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23:17:56 <oerjan> oh hm that's easy because y is a constant relative to x, so = \int_0^1 y \int_0^1 x dx dy = (\int_0^1 z dz)^2 = (1/2)^2 = 0.25
23:18:12 * oerjan still remembers _some_ integration, yay
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23:19:39 <oerjan> which probably means there's also an easy way to think of it without integration
23:19:44 <shachaf> speaking of integration, what's with forms and pseudoforms
23:20:07 <oerjan> well actually it's just E(X Y) = E(X) E(Y) when X and Y are independent
23:20:52 <oerjan> i can say that i'm lucky not to know what pseudoforms are, and have probably never used a form in anger
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23:22:18 <oerjan> (never took the differential geometry course, but there were some seminars...)
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23:23:46 <oerjan> so i recall something about dx /\ dy = - dy /\ dx and de rham something
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23:25:03 <oerjan> and this generalizing green's/stokes's/gauss's theorem
23:25:42 <oerjan> the one integrating around the boundary of a surface
23:26:00 <oerjan> i think stokes's theorem might also refer _to_ the generalization
23:26:45 <oerjan> (also integrating on the surface, and those integrals being equal)
23:27:28 <oerjan> the one on the boundary involved dot product and the one inside cross product with normals iirc
23:27:28 <shachaf> what's the right way to learn about all this twh
23:28:15 <oerjan> i dunno i think what i once knew properly about this i learned in the advanced calculus and analytic geometry course
23:28:40 <oerjan> (but that didn't include the form generalization i think)
23:28:53 <oerjan> well i think the textbook was Apostol, that rings a bell
23:29:14 <oerjan> but also i've heard people talking about Spivak
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23:29:31 <oerjan> and also seen the book, nice cartoons
23:29:58 <oerjan> (spivak would teach the forms)
23:30:37 <oerjan> i think Spivak is sort of legendary for this
23:31:10 <oerjan> and of course this was >20 years ago
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23:32:30 <oerjan> "Spivak is the author of the five-volume A Comprehensive Introduction to Differential Geometry."
23:32:52 <oerjan> sounds comprehensive all right
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23:33:49 <oerjan> "Spivak's book Calculus on Manifolds is also rather infamous as being one of the most difficult undergraduate mathematics textbooks"
23:34:09 <oerjan> hm i don't actually remember whether it's good or just legendary :P
23:35:38 <oerjan> and there's Calculus. not sure which one has the drawings...
23:37:32 <elliott> http://ssiinnaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/spivak.differential.geometry.jpeg exclusive picture of me
23:38:07 <elliott> okay maybe not all of them do... but there's definitely multiple cute spivak covers
23:38:29 <elliott> http://tensorial.com/math/manifolds/ nice Mathematics Memes
23:38:36 <oerjan> oh it's a ship of fools
23:39:29 <oerjan> foo'l you calling a whore
23:40:43 <oerjan> i think that equation in your link _is_ the generalization of stokes's theorem
23:41:00 <shachaf> oerjan: I've always seen that one called "Stokes's theorem".
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23:41:21 <shachaf> So maybe it's the generalization of some simpler one.
23:41:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i guess we undergraduates got the cut-down version
23:41:41 <shachaf> I like it because it looks like an adjunction.
23:41:54 <shachaf> But I'd like to understand it.
23:43:36 <oerjan> it probably is, somehow. everything is.
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23:47:33 <shachaf> oerjan: there was this one picture about this d thing: http://mathoverflow.net/a/10586
23:51:23 <oerjan> mhm i think i saw something like it in the algebraic topology book
23:51:40 <oerjan> (which i read way after undergrad)
23:55:57 <oren> I took Analysis II. Spivak's Calculus on Manifolds was the textbook
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23:57:21 <oren> It was hard as hell but I learned a lot
23:59:14 <oren> Hmm...no wait, it was Analysis on Manifolds
23:59:57 <oren> if i can find it...
00:00:12 <oren> James R Munkres
00:02:19 <oren> Aha! my Analysis I textbook was Spivak's "Calculus"
00:03:22 <oren> So i confused the two a little
00:04:51 <oren> Analysis II was very hard but it obviated the need to take othermath courses
00:05:43 <oren> it is the end all be all for math prerequisites in CS
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00:09:55 <oren> I wonderif all universities have prereq lists like "
00:10:27 <oren> Take A and B and C, or just take D.
00:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, well most universities probably build on things you learned earlier in your course, yes
00:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i've lost track of how many modules have gone through the definition and basic properties of a group
00:34:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it may have been massey, i'm too lazy to go down to the parking cellar to find the book and stupid amazon basically has a biography instead of a proper book description
00:35:26 <oerjan> in any case, it had a final chapter on de rham
00:36:20 <shachaf> you're a cohomology expert, right?
00:37:02 <oerjan> if by "expert" you mean i once proved some spaces to have trivial homology in a published paper
00:37:29 <Taneb> What is a homology?
00:37:54 <oerjan> oh and i guess some others _not_ to have trivial homology, by being very not simply connected
00:38:15 <oerjan> Taneb: it's a functor from topological spaces to a sequence of groups
00:38:36 <shachaf> is that (very not simply) connected or very not (simply connected)
00:38:46 <Taneb> oerjan, a sequence of groups form a category?
00:39:00 <oerjan> or a sequence a functors from spaces to groups
00:39:27 <oerjan> Taneb: well by trivial product, definitely, although in this case there definitely are connections between them
00:40:21 <oerjan> but H_0(S) is basically the free abelian group with card(S) generators
00:40:46 <oerjan> and H_1(S) is the "abelization" of the fundamental group
00:41:19 <oerjan> then the higher groups are more complicated things involving higher dimensional properties of the space
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00:41:51 <oerjan> but e.g. the circle has H_0(S) = Z and H_1(S) = Z iirc
00:42:23 <oerjan> while a "contractible space" like a point or ball has both (and all the rest) trivial groups
00:43:18 <oerjan> the n-sphere generally has most of them trivial but 2 neighboring ones are Z, one further out per dimension
00:43:31 <oerjan> iirc which i'm pretty unsure of for the latter
00:43:59 <Taneb> I should go to bed now
00:44:04 <oerjan> and the fact that these are functors allow you to prove things like the jordan curve theorem
00:44:24 <oerjan> (and in fact its higher-dimensional generalization)
00:46:01 <oerjan> shachaf: oh and it's both, assuming the former implies the latter
00:46:54 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably the former means that it's connected, but in a v. complicated way
00:46:54 <oerjan> erm s/card(S)/card(components of S)/ above there
00:47:51 <oerjan> shachaf: well they were connected indeed
00:49:09 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure if that was part of it
00:49:54 <oerjan> they had a quotient space that was basically a product of infinitely many circles
00:50:52 <oerjan> this was just one space in particular, the simple topological measures on a torus
00:53:33 <oerjan> but i don't remember that the space was necessarily connected
00:54:16 <oerjan> i don't think we had enough control to say that
00:56:07 <Jafet> @ask mroman You just get a log-normal distribution
00:57:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> while a "contractible space" like a point or ball has both (and all the rest) trivial groups
00:58:51 <oerjan> right, i get confused about the H_0 vs. reduced H_0 thing
00:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it only changes H_0 yet it's treated like a property of the entire sequence of homology groups
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01:44:23 <^v> i missed the soak
01:47:12 <zzo38> It says that "nc -e" is dangerous; what dangers are there exactly?
01:49:22 <zzo38> Is it safe if the program you are running is safe?
01:49:48 <Jafet> The usual dangers with allowing people to connect to your machine and run programs, probably.
01:50:05 <oerjan> nc here doesn't have -e but its man page has a comment "Be cautious here because opening a port and let anyone connected execute arbitrary command on your site is DANGEROUS."
01:50:44 <oerjan> (in the part suggesting how to get around the lack of -e)
01:51:04 <zzo38> But can't you specify what program you want to run? They won't necessarily execute arbitrary commands in this way isn't it?
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01:53:15 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: people used to run nc -e /bin/bash anyway.
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02:23:03 <pikhq> zzo38: nc -e inetd-style-httpd would be just fine I imagine.
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02:51:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41709&oldid=40821 * 71.10.94.116 * (+205) /* Print value of cell x as number */
02:59:18 <oerjan> surely we have that already?
02:59:34 <pikhq> Probably a tweak if it isn't a bad edit.
03:01:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41710&oldid=41709 * Oerjan * (+2) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */ Wrap line
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03:04:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41711&oldid=41710 * Oerjan * (+8) /* Print value of cell x as number */ cell size
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03:21:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41712&oldid=41711 * 71.10.94.116 * (+254) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
03:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41713&oldid=41712 * 71.10.94.116 * (+6) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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03:36:09 <Lilax> I wonder if the ::bb:: thing for bolding would work for irc
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03:38:09 <Lilax> Place to use bots?
03:39:13 <MDude> Was jsut guessing since I figured that's how channel names worked.
03:39:25 <MDude> And then joined right before you.
03:40:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41714&oldid=41713 * 71.10.94.116 * (+58) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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03:43:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41715&oldid=41714 * 71.10.94.116 * (+193) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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03:49:15 <Lilax> nvm where's that calculation bot
03:49:48 <oerjan> Lilax: bold is triggered with a ctrl-B character, you probably need to escape it in your client somehow to insert it
03:50:27 <oerjan> (if you didn't see bold in bold there, your client doesn't support it)
03:51:06 <oerjan> Lilax: your calculation may be timing out
03:51:22 <oerjan> although, why hasn't it already
03:51:27 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
03:52:10 <oerjan> > let f n = f(n+1) in f 1
03:52:37 <oerjan> hm that timed out, 10^10^100 must be doing something that gets even that to fail
03:53:26 <oerjan> @ask int-e do you know why > 10^10^100 times out without giving any message?
03:54:15 <shachaf> oerjan: It happens in GMP, I guess?
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03:54:24 <shachaf> Something about uninterruptible calls or who knows.
03:54:33 <shachaf> It behaves differently in ghci too.
03:54:57 <oerjan> basically GMP doesn't give any error on overflow?
03:55:18 <oerjan> shouldn't that be larger than memory size?
03:55:28 <shachaf> (^) uses repeated squaring
03:55:42 <oerjan> the _result_ is still larger than memory size, eventually
03:55:52 <shachaf> Sure, but presumably it times out before reaching that.
03:56:04 <shachaf> (^) is implemented in Haskell
03:56:08 <shachaf> It's just using GMP multiplication.
03:56:27 <oerjan> Lilax: i know it is large
03:56:34 <Lilax> And I don't think any bot can handle that
03:56:56 <oerjan> Lilax: well it couldn't handle 10^1000000000000 either
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03:57:31 <oerjan> which i was trying to make big enough to outrun memory, but not by too many magnitudes
03:57:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
03:58:06 <oerjan> shachaf: it doesn't have your extension :(
03:58:27 <oerjan> Lilax: i was just checking if it could use e-notation for Integers
03:58:30 <shachaf> oerjan: i was about to complain to int-e
03:58:36 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
03:58:38 <oerjan> shachaf made an extension to ghc for it
03:58:40 <shachaf> > let x :: Integer; x = 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 in x*x
03:58:56 <Sgeo> This website has profiles that let users have an about string. If no about string is entered, it defaults to "I love Internet Explorer."
03:58:57 <shachaf> er, i forgot the 1 at the beginning
03:59:22 <Lilax> implementing the e isn't hard
03:59:43 <shachaf> what are you even doing, Lilax
03:59:58 <oerjan> shachaf: i sincerely doubt it errors out at anything that small, sine i've calculated factorials of numbers > 100000 before
04:00:15 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, that's not very many bits at all
04:00:40 <Lilax> how many bits can lambdabot handle before a crash
04:00:46 <shachaf> anyway what i thought was happening was a timeout in gmp code
04:00:57 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:01:12 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:02:16 <shachaf> oerjan: so what's with tensors twh
04:02:48 <shachaf> i feel like listening to physicists is the worst way to learn things
04:02:49 <lambdabot> (6,1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:03:00 <lambdabot> (7,1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:04:23 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:04:31 <oren> tensor means a vector, matrix, or any number of dimensions
04:05:03 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:05:43 <shachaf> oren: i keep being told that's a terrible definition
04:05:44 <Lilax> in the 10^10^8 - 9 areas
04:05:54 <shachaf> except by physicists, and who trusts them
04:06:32 <Lilax> I apparently can't read
04:07:45 <oerjan> > logBase 256 10 * 10^9
04:07:51 <shachaf> that second result was enlightening hth
04:08:30 <oerjan> but less than a gigabyte
04:11:59 <oerjan> shachaf: you can take tensor products of vector spaces, that's a start
04:13:21 <oerjan> shachaf: the tensor product of two vector spaces is defined by the universal property wrt. bilinear maps from them
04:13:22 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^26))
04:13:23 <shachaf> and those are defined as a left adjoint to the internal hom
04:13:35 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^27))
04:13:37 <shachaf> or what you said, which is p. close to the same thing
04:13:43 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:13:59 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^28))
04:14:02 <oerjan> istr something like all universal properties are adjoints
04:14:04 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:14:14 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^29))
04:14:24 <oerjan> if you look at them the right way
04:14:28 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:15:18 <shachaf> oerjan: well, we're talking about a slightly different one here, with (A ⊸ (B ⊸ C)) ~ (A ⊗ B ⊸ C)
04:15:28 <shachaf> but it's the same idea at any rate
04:15:48 <shachaf> a linear map from the tensor product is like a bilinear map from the cartesian product. or something
04:16:22 <shachaf> this is nicer than talking about multidimensional arrays but doesn't give me much intuition
04:17:11 <oerjan> i see a number of blank squares, and am not sure if you mean them all to be tensor products because then you're just saying associativity
04:17:23 <shachaf> (A -o (B -o C)) ~ (A (x) B -o C)
04:18:34 <oerjan> i suppose the left is the same as the set of bilinear maps from A and B to C
04:18:58 <shachaf> it's funny because usually you define the cartesian product first and then define exponentials in terms of it
04:19:08 <shachaf> but here you start with the internal hom
04:20:38 <shachaf> anyway, so i should get some intuition for this operation
04:20:44 <oerjan> the subspaces of hilbert spaces are said to satisfy the orthomodular law
04:20:57 <shachaf> e.g. they say that if V and W are n- and m- dimensional, V(x)W is nm-dimensional
04:21:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you know for that looking at bases might actually be simplest
04:22:12 <oerjan> a basis for V(x)W can simply be pairs of basis elements for V and W
04:22:45 <oerjan> and then you can check that that fulfils the universal property
04:24:27 <shachaf> makes some sense, since it's linear in both of them separately
04:26:10 <oerjan> might wonder if you can show point-freely that the tensor product of the free vector spaces on sets S and T is a free vector space on S x T
04:26:40 <oerjan> perhaps that holds more generally than vector spaces
04:27:17 * oerjan leaves this to you as the CT expert btw
04:28:14 <shachaf> what is the "more general" version of tensor product
04:28:35 <shachaf> left adjoint to the internal hom?
04:28:53 <shachaf> hmm, there's no general definition of internal hom
04:29:31 <oerjan> no, but you could assume that it exists and try to prove it from that?
04:29:44 <shachaf> what properties would it have
04:29:55 <shachaf> presumably you're not taking any ol' monoidal category
04:30:16 * oerjan is actually rather weak on monoidal categories hth hth
04:31:09 <oerjan> i keep forgetting that the script doesn't work with actions
04:31:20 <shachaf> why don't you just turn the script off twh
04:32:07 <shachaf> anyway monoidal category just means you have a "product" bifunctor with an identity in the obvious way
04:32:51 <oerjan> anyway for the inner hom you want exponentials no?
04:33:29 <shachaf> well, exponentials are right adjoint to cartesian product
04:33:36 <shachaf> i mean categorical product. whatever it's called
04:33:39 <shachaf> that's not the same as tensor product
04:34:56 <oerjan> ok maybe it's not easy to generalize
04:35:27 <shachaf> it would be a good generalization if it is
04:37:47 <shachaf> anyway, so this tensor product thing exists, great
04:39:09 <shachaf> and an tensor on V is defined to be V(x)V(x)...(x)V(x)V(x)V*(x)V*(x)...(x)V*(x)V*
04:39:24 <shachaf> an (n,m)-tensor, where the number of Vs is n and the number of V*s is m
04:39:46 <oren> My understanding is: basically the tensor has two types of indexes, the covariant ones which are summed over upon application, and the contravariant which are not.
04:40:22 <shachaf> what are indexes and application and summing and so on
04:40:42 <oerjan> i think he's referring to einstein notation
04:40:51 <oren> indexes are the dimensions of the multidimensional array
04:40:54 <oerjan> which is _very_ coordinate based
04:41:05 <shachaf> i'm not talking about multidimensional arrays right now hth
04:41:07 <oerjan> also does implicit summation
04:41:16 <shachaf> einstein notation always looked like scow to me anyway
04:41:33 <shachaf> maybe it's a convenient notation when you're doing things but not convenient for figuring out what they mean
04:42:09 <shachaf> so V* = (V -> F), where F is our field, right?
04:42:24 <shachaf> why do we distinguish between covariant and contravariant Vs, given that they're isomorphic?
04:43:07 <oerjan> shachaf: because you want V and V* to live in the tangent bundle on a manifold
04:43:37 <oren> because the covariant ones are summed over, like the horizontal of a matrix,but the contravariant ones remain in the result, like the vertical of a matrix
04:43:40 <oerjan> basically distinguishing allows to express physics equations so they _are_ natural
04:43:59 <shachaf> oren: what's with the matrices hth
04:44:15 <oren> matrix is a (1,1) tensor
04:44:26 <oerjan> oren: please don't provoke shachaf with this low-level intuition twh hth
04:44:56 <oerjan> (it's how i learnt about tensors first myself, but still i don't think it's what he's after)
04:45:03 <shachaf> so a (1,1) tensor -- i.e. an element of V(x)V* -- is a linear map
04:45:14 <shachaf> i guess it's a linear map : V* -o V
04:45:37 <shachaf> is a linear map : V -o W a tensor?
04:47:47 <shachaf> so it's a tensor product, sure, but it's not a tensor, is it?
04:48:02 <oerjan> i am unsure of the nomenclature here
04:48:05 <oren> and (1,1). the (n,m) tells you nothing about the size of the dimensions only their number
04:48:16 <shachaf> i'm going by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_(intrinsic_definition)
04:49:08 <shachaf> you can also say that an (n,m) tensor is a multilinear map : V x ...m... x V x V* x ...n... x V* -> F
04:49:19 <shachaf> where you switch which spaces are dual to keep the same variance
04:50:07 <shachaf> how do we go from (V -o V) to (V (x) (V -o F))?
04:54:10 <oren> a linear map from V to F would be a (0,1) tensor
04:54:20 <oerjan> shachaf: use the bilinear map that is simply application of the functional to the vector?
04:56:15 <oren> and a vector is a (1,0) tensor. so V (x) (V -o F) would be a (1,1) tensor (the dimensions add)
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05:00:27 <shachaf> if -o is the notation for a linear map then the notation for a multilinear map must be -ꙮ
05:01:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you might need to use V** ~ V in there
05:01:19 <oerjan> because i don't think it is true for infinite dimensional spaces
05:03:20 <shachaf> (V -o V) (V -o ((V -o F) -o F)) ((V (x) (V -o F)) -o F)
05:03:26 <shachaf> ugh my internet connection is a class-E scow right now
05:04:30 <shachaf> anyway going from that last thing to V* (x) V is presumably pretty straightforward
05:04:52 * oerjan may not have the brain for this
05:05:38 <shachaf> you're p. helpful so far tdh hth
05:05:57 <oren> But multiplying a (0,1) tensor and a (1,0) will only give you linear maps where all the components of result are linear to each other
05:06:11 <shachaf> what's multiplying tensors
05:06:49 <oren> you multiply all components with each other
05:06:53 <oerjan> taking the paired basis elements, basically
05:07:27 <shachaf> are we somehow talking about multidimensional arrays again
05:07:53 <oren> obviously... the tensor product is defined in terms of numbers
05:08:04 <oren> in the field F
05:08:20 <oren> over which your vector space is defined
05:08:46 <shachaf> look we defined the tensor product already
05:08:59 <shachaf> and paired basis elements on top of that
05:10:19 <shachaf> ok, so i believe that a (1,1) tensor is a linear map : V -o V
05:10:47 <shachaf> i suppose that if you choose bases or coordinates or whatever then each element of the matrix corresponds to one pair of basis elements?
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05:17:29 <oren> i suppose you could define the basis of the space of (1,1) tensors, as the set of linear maps which project onto the ith basis and scale the jth basis by the result...
05:18:34 <shachaf> did oerjan leave due to lack of brain :'(
05:19:30 <shachaf> previous statement not intended in the rude way that an observer without context might interpret it hth
05:19:37 <oren> symbollically... E_ij(v) = (v . e_i)e_j
05:20:01 <shachaf> what do these symbols mean hth
05:21:21 <oren> Um... E_ij is the i,jth basis element for the set of (1,1) tensors, e_i is the ith element of the basis of V, v is a arbitrary vector, . is a dot product
05:22:06 <shachaf> wait, don't you write e_i^j or something
05:22:30 <oren> That's for components of tensors
05:23:20 <shachaf> ok you're just talking about matrices here
05:23:25 <oren> E is a list of basis elements for the set of (1,1) tensors
05:24:42 <oren> I'm basically showing we can create a basis for the (1,1) tensors from a basis for the vectors
05:25:45 <oren> although really i dunno whther such construction can be made general
05:28:49 <oren> i guess the idea is, use the functions f_i(v) = (v . e_i) as a basis for the (0,1) tensors, given that e_i form a basis for the (1,0) tensors...
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05:35:34 <oren> then the tricky bit is proving that given a basis B for the (n,m) tensors and a basis E for the (k,l) tensors, that the products of each member of B with each member of E form a basis for (k+n,m+l) tensors
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05:36:31 <oren> in using the matrix notation for tensors we are essentially assuming that the above is true
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06:05:08 <oren> don't worry, I am too
06:11:20 <Lilax> http://is.gd/k2NuAY
06:11:37 <Lilax> I had made 20 pancakes
06:28:33 * oerjan expected picture of pancakes and was disappointed
06:30:18 <oren> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pancake_Stack
06:31:10 <shachaf> oerjan: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq4287y4CJ1qmqpiro1_1280.jpg hth
06:33:00 <oerjan> does someone want a pancake / while we've still got 'em?
06:34:08 <oerjan> i think you missed your cue hth
06:34:52 <Lilax> http://nuttygod.tumblr.com/image/108806826655
06:34:56 <Sgeo> Hey, it's an English-like esolang that isn't a BF derivative!
06:35:07 <Lilax> ye so I made pancakes
06:35:18 <Lilax> Didn't eat any of them
06:35:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you forgot to make the proper rhyme hth
06:35:27 <Sgeo> Wonder if could make language that looks stack based but is really BF
06:35:43 <shachaf> oerjan: wait is this a reference to something
06:35:52 <oerjan> shachaf: you just linked it
06:36:28 <shachaf> my accent must be incompatbile with that
06:37:25 <oerjan> possibly it works in no accent known to man
06:37:51 <oerjan> Lilax: i'm missing emperor palpatine somewhere between 2 and 3
06:38:17 <Lilax> There's a flaw in the Swedish language in one small town where yes is pronounced as a sharp intake of breath
06:38:43 <Lilax> Man my english is bad
06:38:57 <Lilax> Grammatical skills for typing
06:38:58 <oerjan> it's more than just one small town and wasn't this discussed earlier?
06:39:16 <oerjan> also you cannot call it a "flaw" that's not how language works
06:39:42 <Lilax> was it discussed earlier?
06:39:53 <Lilax> I thought it was in just one part of Sweden
06:40:09 <Lilax> But.. Why a sharp intake for yes.
06:41:01 <oren> Sgeo: In India they bobble their heads side to side for yes
06:41:12 <oren> Lilax: In India they bobble their heads side to side for yes
06:41:15 <oerjan> well _someone_ a few days ago asked me if i pronounced yes like that
06:41:37 <oerjan> (i don't. also i'm norwegian if anyone's confused.)
06:41:56 <oerjan> (i'm also norwegian if no one's confused, but i find that unlikely.)
06:41:58 <shachaf> oerjan: did you answer by moving your head twh
06:42:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't remember
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06:42:59 <oerjan> i think my response head movements are pretty normal for a western european
06:43:00 <Lilax> Yes is Norwegian is ja
06:43:17 <oerjan> Lilax: it's ja in swedish too
06:43:24 <oren> I say 'ya' in english too
06:43:43 <Lilax> I pronounce exclamations
06:44:52 <oerjan> Lilax: btw the sharp intake is supposed to be simultaneous with a "ja" hth
06:44:58 <oren> 'ya' sounds like no in japanese though
06:45:31 <Lilax> Don't you have to be exactly on point with puncuation in Japanese
06:46:00 <oerjan> oren: isn't that word so impolite that they almost never use it
06:46:35 <shachaf> hey, what happened to the unicode haiku
06:47:52 <oren> well yeah, generally no in Japanese is u-un or iie, but in a dramatic situation IYA! is the word you shout
06:48:16 <oren> you hear it a lot in anime and dramas etc.
06:49:52 <oerjan> maybe someone thought it was gibberish
06:50:20 <oren> is gibberish with a hard or soft g?
06:51:47 <Lilax> Pronounced in my understand jib-er-ish
06:52:03 <shachaf> if only english had glottal stops
06:52:18 <Lilax> what are those again
06:52:57 <oerjan> doesn't it have them before vowels
06:53:14 <shachaf> oerjan: i read jib-er-ish as if it had glottal stops
06:54:22 <oren> shachaf: there is a glottal stop in the english uh-oh...
06:54:32 <shachaf> there is also one in the english up and over
06:54:49 <oerjan> shachaf: ok only at the beginning of words hth
06:55:56 <shachaf> imo the system where it's another consonant is better
07:00:17 <Lilax> the system where every letter is accented and is a vowel
07:02:57 <oerjan> shachaf: i cannot find any relevant removal less than 19 months old hth
07:04:06 <shachaf> oerjan: how about greater than or equal to 19 months old twh
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07:13:52 <oerjan> make the 24 months hth
07:14:30 <shachaf> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/85805e0c2335
07:19:04 <shachaf> wait, that's not evidence that it was a quote
07:20:17 * Sgeo would say he has successfully been advertised to... for a product that doesn't currently exist
07:20:44 <shachaf> Sgeo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonana hth
07:21:10 <Sgeo> As far as I know that thing you linked exists.
07:21:36 <shachaf> did you read the history twh
07:23:05 <oerjan> shachaf: ah that proves i've search far enough back...
07:23:19 <HackEgo> 357) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 654) <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden
07:23:30 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
07:23:36 <shachaf> maybe i was thinking of that one
07:24:45 <shachaf> -ꙮ is my best accomplishment of the day
07:25:04 <shachaf> i'll have to write a linear algbera book to popularize it
07:25:11 <shachaf> i'll also throw in some monad analogies
07:25:58 <oerjan> first you have to make it show up properly in clients hth
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07:27:21 <shachaf> it shows up properly in proper clients and improperly in improper clients hth
07:28:09 <oerjan> i do, perhaps, include putty in the setup
07:29:38 <oerjan> `unicode [MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN][HIRAGANA LETTER YA][SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
07:29:39 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
07:29:53 <oerjan> `unicode [MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN]
07:29:55 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
07:30:00 <oerjan> `unicode MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN
07:30:19 <oerjan> `unicode HIRAGANA LETTER YA
07:30:39 <olsner> shachaf: monads are ꙮ? probably one of the best monad analogies around
07:30:40 <oerjan> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
07:31:09 <HackEgo> bin/slashes \ bin/slashlearn
07:31:35 <shachaf> olsner: Well, you have an adjunction, so you do get a monad of some sort there.
07:32:17 <shachaf> aren't you missing a character there
07:32:22 <shachaf> oh, maybe my client is improper
07:32:32 <oerjan> i don't see the last one either
07:32:51 <shachaf> i thought i'd finally made it work
07:33:12 <olsner> shachaf: there's an adjunction in ꙮ? what does that even mean
07:33:30 <shachaf> olsner: Well, defining the tensor product.
07:33:54 <shachaf> I guess you weren't around earlier.
07:33:59 <shachaf> I use A -o B to mean a linear map
07:34:08 <shachaf> So I decided to use A -ꙮ B to mean a multilinear map
07:36:35 <shachaf> apparently unicode has a different use in mind for that character
07:37:14 <oerjan> shachaf: that limonana is some effective marketing
07:37:32 <shachaf> oerjan: would you like a glass hth
07:37:59 <oerjan> i'm afraid i'm very fond of lemon
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07:38:15 <shachaf> i suppose the appropriate acronym to end that question with was "wth"
07:38:16 <oerjan> you can pour some on my fingers, they obviously like it
07:39:41 <oerjan> 'TIL THE WHITE ROSE BLOOMS AGAAAAIN...
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07:39:55 <shachaf> did you really learn that today hth
07:40:24 <olsner> hmm, http://www.pagetable.com/?p=774 - apparently basic for 6502 was written in PDP-10 assembly, with macros to trick it into generating 6502 code instead
07:40:26 <oerjan> um no i've known that song for years?
07:41:06 <shachaf> the joke was how i read the first word of your sentence hth
07:42:08 <olsner> is there a difference in meaning between till and until?
07:42:25 <glguy> You put money in one?
07:42:42 <oerjan> olsner: not that i know of.
07:43:43 <shachaf> somehow that doesn't seem appropriate like an appropriate `thanking
07:44:34 <olsner> if you read glguy as a single syllable, with glg as a consonant cluster or the spelling of a weird consonant, that works I think
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12:11:43 <yeah_right> need some explanation about solving one shit, who can help me?
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12:23:01 <boily> yeahello_right. it's a canal. and the sky is gray.
12:23:07 <boily> (and the sky is graaaayyy ♪)
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12:39:27 <elliott> that parses as -(1 `mod` 5)
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14:08:47 <Taneb> "Exercise: make identifiers as general as possible (but no more so)"
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14:11:56 <int-e> > let thing = 42, process x = x+23 in process (process thing)
14:11:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input ‘,’
14:12:02 <int-e> > let thing = 42; process x = x+23 in process (process thing)
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14:12:58 <int-e> maybe "thing" is too general and it should be "number" instead. I'm not sure.
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14:13:40 <Lilax> oh man i2p is weird
14:14:30 <Taneb> Melvar, it's from my uni course
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14:16:12 <Jafet> > all (\b -> ap (==) reverse $ showIntAtBase b ("012"!!) 24014998963383302600955162866787153652444049 "") [2,3]
14:16:47 <Jafet> Now I'm out of disk space.
14:20:58 <int-e> That's a new one... (spam) "I got your email address from the yahoo tourist search [...]"
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14:22:15 <int-e> ... US$8.500,000.00 ... <-- the two decimal points are a cute touch.
14:22:42 <Jafet> Apparently that's a stock phrase
14:22:48 <Jafet> @google "yahoo tourist search"
14:22:49 <lambdabot> http://419.bittenus.com/9/5/musawalter.html
14:22:49 <lambdabot> Title: musa walter: I GOT YOUR CONTACT FROM YAHOO TOURIST SEARCH
14:25:14 <int-e> wow I got a lot of those today, I should add the figures
14:30:21 <int-e> > (4.2 + 8.5 * 0.4 + 10.5 * 0.4 + 7.3 * 0.3, 25 + 10.6) -- the latter two didn't say anything about how much I get to keep
14:30:31 <int-e> that's in Million USD, of course.
14:30:52 <Jafet> Better check that the offers are not exclusive
14:31:09 <int-e> they're all exclusive and confidential of course.
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14:31:22 <int-e> so damn, I guess I no longer qualify.
14:32:16 <int-e> (there's an exception; the 4.2 figure is one of those refund-for-scammed-people fund meta-scams)
14:33:00 <int-e> And I didn't mention the 450k Euro I won from google.
14:33:10 <Jafet> Maybe you should take one of those other scams so that you can qualify for the refund scam
14:37:17 <elliott> int-e: it says $8.500,000.00, not $8,500,000.00
14:38:12 <int-e> you and I both know that's not what they meant :P
14:39:00 <HackEgo> 27) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 65) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 71) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 124) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" a
14:39:36 <mroman> There should be quotes about meta-quotes .
14:39:38 <HackEgo> 124) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
14:40:00 <HackEgo> 308) <Sgeo> I was more of a pervert in Metaplace than Utherverse <Sgeo> I invented Metaplace sex >.> \ 358) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 359) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET \ 511) <ais523> o
14:40:29 <HackEgo> 511) <ais523> oh no, I think we've managed to mix three metaphors in a way that actually makes sense
14:40:42 <int-e> that sounds like fun
14:42:57 <HackEgo> 431) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
14:44:09 <J_Arcane> https://twitter.com/KeLuKeLuGames/status/557226441838833665/photo/1
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15:13:51 <b_jonas> fungot, IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
15:13:52 <fungot> b_jonas: what's a typeclass? :) htmlprag?! :(". this isn't; it calls out to rand(3).
15:15:38 <b_jonas> fungot, <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml><w:WordDocument>
15:15:38 <fungot> b_jonas: ummm...i dont know. ummm.....thats what i had in mind when considering the finer points of old crotch blended highland scotch whiskey.)
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15:43:20 <FireFly> fungot: so you enjoy whiskey eh
15:43:21 <fungot> FireFly: but im watching so much sicp stuff that im too young to even be aware of it
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16:15:52 <mroman> Largest_artificial_non-nuclear_explosions
16:15:57 <mroman> sure gotta love wikipedia
16:21:13 <MDream> I'm kinda wondering about the largest known natural non-nuclear explosions.
16:21:33 <MDream> Since I'm farily sure stuff like exploding suns in nuclear.
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16:22:05 <MDude> ANd I don't think colliding planets qualifies as an explosion so much as things smashing each other.
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16:43:12 <Jafet> The distinction between natural and artificial things seems pretty artificial.
16:44:39 <b_jonas> Jafet: http://abstrusegoose.com/215
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18:04:48 <MDude> I'mthinking what distinctions artificial stuff could be the same as what distinguishes art. Its production relies heavily on the use of imagination to project an invisioned goal.
18:06:57 <quintopia> my definition of art is anything made by humans which can be appreciated aesthetically (even if the appreciation is not pleasurable)
18:11:45 <MDude> I figure art used to have a more general meaning, hence terms like artillery and technical arts.
18:12:23 <quintopia> art originally meant the same as artifice
18:12:53 <MDude> I thoght it was jsut the root word of it.
18:13:55 <quintopia> but art might include the utilitarian work of a blacksmith (still might in some contexts)
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18:22:22 <shachaf> oh, 9858 was renamed so my email client didn't show me the replies to it in the same thread
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18:23:23 <int-e> Hmm, I need to check the e-mail address on trac...
18:24:08 <int-e> as suspected, I don't have one. fun.
18:24:18 <shachaf> Also, ccing myself on Trac emails is completely useless, because I'm already susbscribed to ghc-tickets.
18:24:54 <shachaf> But the email doesn't look any different, so my filters still filter it away.
18:25:06 <shachaf> I guess it's not useless because adding yourself to cc is a way of expressing interest.
18:25:33 <int-e> it's funny though, I though ghc's trac used to send me emails...
18:28:12 <int-e> To me the really interesting bit about 9858 is that it requires Typeable instances for (non-data) kinds. That's a new thing, I think.
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18:28:44 <elliott> is ghc even polykinded enough for that?
18:28:46 <shachaf> Yes, though they can already be StandaloneDerived.
18:28:53 <elliott> how would you express :k Typeable?
18:29:11 <shachaf> deriving instance Typeable (GHC.Prim.*) works
18:29:20 <shachaf> (Once you turn on NullaryTypeClasses, which is a small bug.)
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18:30:08 <shachaf> Typeable :: k -> Constraint
18:30:17 <shachaf> Things are a bit strange there.
18:30:32 <int-e> right, there's that BOX superkind, and * :: BOX
18:30:33 <shachaf> But GHC isn't particular, it also has BOX :: BOX.
18:31:16 <int-e> so what's the kind of the kind-level ->? BOX -> BOX -> BOX?
18:32:10 <shachaf> Oh, that reminds me that this doesn't work as well as you might think.
18:32:38 <shachaf> I'm not sure that there's a way to talk about * -> *
18:33:19 <shachaf> Since typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy ((GHC.Prim.*) -> (GHC.Prim.*)) doesn't work.
18:33:27 <shachaf> But maybe that's not relevant.
18:33:44 <shachaf> It's funny that * the kind of types conflict with * for Nat multiplication.
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18:38:30 <int-e> The first argument of ‘Proxy’ should have kind ‘OpenKind’, but ‘*’ has kind ‘BOX’ ...
18:39:28 <oren> maybe the best way to design a language is to make a tiny kernel and allow high extensibility
18:39:45 <int-e> Oh I have not read the Giving Haskell a Promotion paper... maybe I should.
18:40:12 <elliott> oren: standard haskell is meant to be the kernel
18:40:17 <oren> but haskell seems to defy that, as does Perl and C#
18:40:29 <elliott> it is explicitly intended to be a research language to build extensions on top of
18:40:40 <elliott> hence GHC being a far bigger and more configurable language than report haskell
18:40:51 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_A._Haskell
18:40:59 <J_Arcane> I think I'm starting to lose my enthusiasm for Haskell. XD
18:41:07 <oren> so the GHC has a lot of extensions already built it
18:41:29 <elliott> GHC has like tens of interoperating language extensions
18:41:39 <elliott> it's kind of impressive they work together as much as they do tbh
18:41:43 <int-e> oren: yes, it is a vehicle for research after all.
18:41:45 <elliott> some of them trickle down into the report but very slowly
18:42:18 <elliott> basically haskell came about because there were multiple pure, lazy, typed functional programming languages being used for research in the mid-late 80s-ish
18:42:44 <elliott> so they got together to standardise on a common language to build their research on top of
18:43:17 <int-e> And nobody ever imagined that there'd be only one major haskell compiler in the end.
18:43:22 <elliott> (it's sort of a "merge-by-committee" language)
18:43:52 <elliott> right. GHC just accidentally ended up becoming useful and mature and now it's close to the only major player driving the language
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18:47:07 <elliott> (I wasn't actually there, obviously, so my account of Haskell's history may be inaccurate.)
18:47:51 <int-e> Same here. I don't think I became aware of Haskell before 2000 or 2001.
18:48:30 <int-e> And we're talking about the early to mid 90s.
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18:49:04 <oren> BINABC is not a bytecode
18:49:35 <int-e> J_Arcane: Haskell is still one of the better and, more importantly, interesting programming languages out there. But you'll find few people who use it and think it's perfect.
18:50:18 <int-e> (And obviously it has its dark corners and it's not useful for everything.)
18:51:54 <shachaf> it actually is useful for some things hth
18:52:15 <int-e> shachaf: "not useful for everything" is different from "not useful for anything", hth.
18:52:32 <shachaf> haskell is not useful for comparing those strings hth
18:52:46 <shachaf> unicode needs INVISIBLE PARENTHESES
18:52:52 <int-e> > "not useful for everything" `compare` "not useful for anything"
18:53:17 <shachaf> oh, wait, you weren't saying what i thought you were
18:53:21 <J_Arcane> int-e: I think it's the experimental side of it being so prominent, and the "actually doing stuff with it" part that puts me off a bit. It's like, you can get some sense of a programming language most times just by following what people talk about, and most of what Haskeller's talk about is jargonated discussions of whatever new experimental library or combinator or polymorphic parametric...
18:53:23 <J_Arcane> ...anaphylactic supercalifragilistic functor they apparently need to actually do anything with it...
18:53:35 <elliott> that's because haskellers are nerds
18:53:41 <shachaf> haskell is ((not useful) for everything) obviously hth
18:53:46 <J_Arcane> Weirdly, I kinda get the same vibe off of Haskell as I get off of Racket macros.
18:54:27 <int-e> shachaf: ok, I guess that's a possible way of parsing it
18:54:33 <oren> C++ templates are the same though
18:54:33 <J_Arcane> (ie. an impenetrably deep sea of jargon I begin to wonder if I will ever even slightly understand)
18:54:56 <shachaf> is it really necessary to be mean, even sarcastically or whatever it is you're doing
18:55:56 <oren> any sufficiently complicated programming language evolves a group of coders who use it for nothing more than competitive convolution
18:56:18 <shachaf> competitive Day convolution
18:56:35 <int-e> shachaf: Sorry. I'm amazed about the amount of ambiguity in this language they call English.
18:56:55 <oren> convolution here being the verbal noun "the act of making something convoluted"
18:56:57 <shachaf> i wasn't addressing you there, sorry
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18:57:35 <J_Arcane> that was weird. sorry if I started any trouble.
18:58:09 <int-e> J_Arcane: You can still just ignore lens, monads, ana-, cata- and hylomorphisms, and start coding.
18:58:14 <oren> if i make something convoluted, can I say I convolved it?
18:58:27 <J_Arcane> I still barely have any idea how to do basic I/O in Haskell. XD
18:58:39 <int-e> J_Arcane: I don't think you did anything out of the ordinary for this channel.
18:59:34 <int-e> J_Arcane: right, don't listen to anybody who uses the word 'monad' to explain it ;-) just write foo :: IO () (which means you can do IO and produce a result of ()) and use 'do' blocks to string those together.
18:59:50 <oren> So anyway I was thinking there is little difference between an object and a function
19:00:27 <oren> if a function has static variables
19:00:38 <int-e> oren: half the "design patterns" are just implementing higher order functions ... in a language that only has classes and objects to express them.
19:01:03 <oren> A.x(B) === A('x')(B)
19:01:09 <int-e> (things like the visitor pattern)
19:02:27 <oren> Well yah. So what if there was a language in which there literally is no difference?
19:02:33 <J_Arcane> oren: Heresy's objects are in fact actually implemented with lambda closures.
19:02:38 <elliott> where's that thing about "objects are just a special case of functions" / "functions are just a special case of objects"
19:02:43 <elliott> some mailing list post or something
19:03:17 <oren> I am thinking I will call them fobs
19:03:21 <elliott> oren: (it is not static variables you need but closures, really)
19:03:45 <J_Arcane> Things are just functions created with a local a-list and some macro magic to contain and even internally reference their values.
19:03:46 <elliott> note the common definition of objects = behaviour (code) + state
19:03:52 <elliott> a raw function pointer is code, a closure bundles it with state
19:04:32 <J_Arcane> (Things are immutable though, because everything in Heresy is except external IO.
19:06:13 <oren> So a fob takes a symbol (method name) and produces another fob
19:06:50 <oren> because methods are basically functions...
19:07:55 <elliott> oren: you will find there is little "ob" about them.
19:07:59 <elliott> you can write this kind of thing in scheme
19:08:34 <J_Arcane> Yeah, Heresy methods are literally just a matter of sticking a lambda in one of the object fields.
19:08:45 <elliott> (define (my-cons x y) (lambda (msg) (case msg (car x) (cdr y) (set-car! (lambda (new-x) (set! x new-x))) (set-cdr! (lambda (new-y) (set! y new-y))))))
19:08:58 <oren> But methods have their own local state as well...
19:09:09 <elliott> (let ((pair (my-cons 1 2))) ((pair 'set-car!) 123) (pair 'car)) => 123
19:09:36 <elliott> uh, at least I think that set! works. you can do it with a tiny bit more contortions if not
19:09:39 <J_Arcane> (with more magic macros to let them reference the other fields as if they were local variables)
19:10:58 <elliott> oren: here, this is good: http://people.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/oop-scheme_themes-classes-objects-sec.html
19:11:02 <oren> and the local state of a method can be thought of as an object inheriting from the method's parent object
19:11:33 <oren> Thus it is obvious how it accesses the parent's fields
19:11:35 <elliott> hmph, they don't get to defining a macro to handle the dispatch, though
19:11:40 <elliott> but I guess you don't really need one if you have a self
19:12:48 <elliott> I suddenly realised I'm not being listened to.
19:13:17 <oren> it looks good, but I wasthinking more abstractly
19:13:28 <J_Arcane> elliott: hah. That's awesome. As usual, I 'invented' something that some Schemer figured out 25 years ago...
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19:14:20 <elliott> this kind of function/object duality is a common smug lisp/smalltalk weenie talking point :p
19:15:00 <oren> like we have a world fob, and every program is a series of calls to it with various 'symbols' (defined arbitrarily), producing new fobs, which take the next symbol
19:15:31 <J_Arcane> The main weakness of that method that we've yet to solve in Heresy though is getting the function itself to print in a useful form; in the end I just added a no-arguments syntax that dumps the internal a-list.
19:15:53 <oren> that does sound difficult
19:16:10 <elliott> abstraction and introspection are at odds
19:16:18 <elliott> the trick is to allow you to inspect closures
19:16:39 <elliott> oren: btw, this sounds pretty much identical to smalltalk-72.
19:16:54 <elliott> st-72 unifies objects and functions similarly.
19:18:31 <oren> good, so it is possible
19:18:54 <oren> like, practically
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19:24:31 <J_Arcane> One thing that does make me want to stick with Haskell though, is I do kinda have a strong curiosity about Parsec. I seem to have a strong interest in language design (which in some ways is insane for someone who is still barely a programmer, but ...)
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19:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41716&oldid=41669 * Rottytooth * (+34) /* External resources */ added velato.js, fixed dead link
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19:56:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Entropy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41717&oldid=32751 * Rottytooth * (+241) added entropy.js
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21:20:55 <J_Arcane> "Both communism and OOP rely on the concept of classes. Both generate a lot of fanaticism and overuse this notion. That might be not an accident." XD
21:31:15 <MDude> Well technically, Commmunism is about trying to remove those classes.
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22:18:08 <J_Arcane> Huh. I didn't know about 'it' in GHCi until just now.
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22:52:27 <Taneb> I would like to ask for some advice
22:52:49 <Taneb> I've been asked to run for treasurer of my uni's Science Fiction and Fantasy society
22:53:02 <Taneb> But I am already treasurer for the Computer Science society, and mean to continue
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22:53:12 <Taneb> I am not sure if I can handle the workload of both
22:55:23 <FireFly> J_Arcane: that's pretty common for different languages' REPLs, so it's worthwhile to try it elsewhere too
22:56:59 <FireFly> Hm... or at least, that's what I recall, but trying it out now I'm not sure where I saw it apart from ghci...
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22:58:21 <J_Arcane> FireFly: I've seen it in type errors from time to time, but was never clear what it meant.
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23:05:01 <CrazyM4n> Taneb: what do you even do as treasurer lol
23:05:21 <CrazyM4n> it can't be that hard to take on two at once, it's an honor too
23:05:24 <Taneb> CrazyM4n, go to the student union with reciepts, and accept membership fees
23:05:30 <Taneb> And turn up to events
23:07:11 <CrazyM4n> hmm, the only thing I'd be worried about is conflicting events
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23:47:07 <FireFly> Taneb: you could take all the money from both and flee to a faraway country
23:47:26 <Taneb> I suspect my morals would prevent me
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00:26:28 <HackEgo> olist 973: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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01:40:31 <oerjan> i see simonpj has suggested simply making _every_ type Typeable as a way to solve the bug
01:41:04 <shachaf> and then someone suggested not requiring Typeable constraints
01:41:20 <oerjan> yes, but i think that would be awkward to achieve...
01:41:55 <shachaf> in the dystopian ghc future, parametricity is but a distant memory
01:42:21 <shachaf> why did we ever let spj take over, we ask ourselves. but it is too late
01:42:34 * oerjan gets confused when people use nicks but still address each other with real names
01:42:58 <oerjan> but goldfire is richard eisenberg, right
01:43:25 <pikhq> Would you be more confused by people addressing someone IRL with a screen name rather than with their real name?
01:43:34 <shachaf> good subject for a double dactyl
01:43:39 <oerjan> pikhq: let's ask Taneb hth
01:44:36 <shachaf> oerjan: due to great confusion of this sort i started keeping a file with nick<->name mappings for haskell people
01:46:45 <oerjan> pikhq: do people do that to you
01:47:17 <oerjan> i would be confused how to pronounce it. but then Taneb doesn't put the stress where i would, either.
01:47:29 <pikhq> Fortunately I answer to it.
01:47:45 <pikhq> Like "pikachu". "peek eitch kyuu"
01:48:10 <oerjan> well i really knew that
01:48:56 <oerjan> i don't pronounce pikachu like "peek eitch kyuu"
01:48:56 <pikhq> Darn stupid mouth feeling punched.
01:49:20 <pikhq> "peek a chuu" vs. "peek eitch kyuu". They sound similar.
01:49:33 <elliott> if I said pikhq it'd be like p'k heich queue
01:49:40 <elliott> whereas pikachu would be peek a chew
01:50:25 <oerjan> i say banayna, you say banahna
01:51:08 * oerjan is inspired by the latest iwc poll
01:51:21 <int-e> why're you all making 'pik' a single syllable?!
01:51:35 <pikhq> Cause I speak English.
01:52:19 <pikhq> When I speak Japanese I say "pikachu" as 4 morae (pi ka chu u) as is proper.
01:52:32 <oerjan> (the incomprehensible joke is that oe is two syllables in that swedish word)
01:52:43 <oerjan> (which means "unheard of")
01:53:05 <int-e> oerjan: hey I accidently translated it into german correctly.
01:53:41 <oerjan> it is fairly likely to have been half-borrowed from german in the first place, specifically the -er- part
01:53:50 <elliott> pikhq: have you considered a legal name change to Pik Headquarters
01:54:03 <oerjan> because that prefix isn't native nordic afair
01:54:56 <oerjan> (and the rest of the word was probably borrowed too, it's not like the prefix was borrowed in isolation)
01:56:54 <oerjan> although it may very well have expanded to native words afterwards.
01:59:39 <oerjan> some of the traditional difference in vocabulary in nynorsk vs. bokmål is because the nynorsk supporters had a certain repulsion against such obvious german loanwords
02:00:40 <oerjan> so e.g. the nynorsk word for "reality" is "røynd" rather than the german-borrowed bokmål "virkelighet"
02:02:01 <oerjan> nynorsk was envisioned as "going back to the roots"
02:03:07 <oerjan> however some of those words feel so archaic that most nynorsk users today use the german-derived loanwords anyway
02:04:34 <oerjan> (and of course being constantly exposed to the majority bokmål media probably doesn't help with keeping the differences)
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02:22:58 <boily> every day, the Norwegian Question becomes confuser and confuser...
02:24:05 <MDude> I had no idea Wikipedia had a main contents page.
02:24:06 <MDude> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Contents
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03:03:28 <Sgeo> Help me I'm excited about a Microsoft product
03:05:32 * oerjan hits Sgeo with the saucepan ===\__/
03:06:18 <shachaf> help me oerjan i'm excited about a culinary product
03:06:28 <Sgeo> No because the saucepan isn't 'holographic'
03:06:54 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry you're doomed hth
03:07:02 <Sgeo> Ok we need a better word than holographic because iirc that means a specific means of projecting 3d images, and everything interesting is using... different ways of doing it
03:07:45 <oerjan> i'd say holographic implies that it can be correctly viewed from different angles, unlike e.g. 3d glasses
03:08:45 <oerjan> (at least "ordinary" 3d glasses with a flat cinema screen)
03:09:40 <Sgeo> So Oculus Rift and HoloLens wouldn't count, since you see the 3d screen itself from one angle?
03:10:08 <oerjan> i haven't read enough about those products
03:10:54 <oerjan> i'd say, you'd ideally also want _more than one person_ to be able to watch, from different angles, at the same time.
03:11:27 <oerjan> of course even laser holograms are limited in the range of angles they allow, i think
03:11:47 <MDude> Augmented Reality is the term used for stuff like HoloLens, I think.
03:12:36 <MDude> For that, you could get an eyetap for both eyes.
03:12:51 <MDude> 3D effect would be fine if emulated via head tracking.
03:14:57 * Sgeo wonders what the SDK will be like
03:15:14 <Sgeo> I assume it's more complicated than normal 3D programming, which I don't totally understand
03:24:06 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/gadgets/comments/2ta829/arstechnica_handson_microsofts_hololens_is/cnxfznw
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03:35:52 <Lilax> Technically speaking the force of two planets smashing into eachother is considered an explosion
03:37:37 <oerjan> <elliott> where's that thing about "objects are just a special case of functions" / "functions are just a special case of objects" <-- i think it's one of the "koans"
03:39:48 <Lilax> How do you keep apostrophe's in your latex text when you convert to pdf?
03:40:27 <oerjan> @tell elliott Google for "Qc na"
03:40:59 <oerjan> Lilax: i think you can drop at least one apostrophe hth
03:41:44 * oerjan has no idea why apostrophes would be a problem.
03:42:18 <Lilax> /is doing this for someone
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03:42:25 <Lilax> I have no idea either
03:58:33 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott> I suddenly realised I'm not being listened to. <-- you should have seen yesterday's tensor conversation.
04:00:29 <oerjan> @tell elliott everything he said was technically correct yet missing the point of our discussion.
04:01:51 <oerjan> maybe i should have said so outright at the time.
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05:20:06 <Sgeo> I have a feeling HoloLens UI as a productivity tool is more good for graphic design and less good for other stuff
05:20:21 <Sgeo> It's the whole 'do you really want to wave your arms in the air for extended periods of time' thing
05:20:42 <Sgeo> Although mouse+keyboard+no monitor could be cool
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07:00:10 <oerjan> hm today's girl genius is the last of a double spread, but seems to be missing the usual elegant and finely crafted link to a big version.
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07:06:28 <Jafet> This is a hyperlink. All craftsdevship is of the highest quality.
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07:10:20 <oerjan> no no "elegant and finely-crafted link" is an official term, e.g. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061011
07:18:10 <Jafet> be two days' worth of story, but this time we thought it
07:18:11 <Jafet> best to use the whole thing for one day. Simply scroll down to read the second page. You can also view the whole thing by following <a href="/ggmain/doublespreads/ggcoll06_089_090.html">this
07:18:11 <Jafet> elegant and finely-crafted link.</a> </p>
07:18:31 <Jafet> Avant-garde, daring in its asymmetry. I like it
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07:25:32 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you think I'd be better off not avoiding coördinates?
07:25:54 <shachaf> You did say that that was how you learned it.
07:26:49 <oerjan> pretty sure it makes more sense if you also know the categorical viewpoint
07:27:44 <oerjan> in fact i'm not sure there is much more to the coordinates than "pairs of basis elements for each space form a basis for their tensor product"
07:29:57 <shachaf> i still don't have a good motivation for a lot of the things
07:31:17 <oerjan> well if you understand matrices as the most obvious way of writing an element of V* (x) W in form of basis elements, and that that is canonically isomorphic to V -o W...
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07:32:47 <oerjan> mind you i don't know either how to actually _calculate_ with tensors whenever derivatives are involved...
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07:33:57 <oerjan> the basic motivation for tensors afaiu is "how to describe physics properties in terms that are independent of your choice of coordinate systems"
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07:34:59 <oerjan> and the non-coordinate way of defining things makes it bloody obvious that what you've done actually _is_ independent of them.
07:35:21 <oerjan> even if you can do things with coordinates and show that they behave nicely under transformations.
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07:45:16 * oerjan still doesn't actually see how to show that V* (x) W is isomorphic to V -o W without using coordinates
07:46:02 <oerjan> and also, V must be finite-dimensional
07:46:41 <shachaf> doesn't it just work given that V ~ V**?
07:46:53 <oerjan> well that's of course pretty darn equivalent
07:47:05 <oerjan> to being finite dimensional
07:47:33 <oerjan> although maybe that means it also works for infinite dimensional hilbert spaces if interpreted right
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07:48:22 <oerjan> but anyway i don't see how it follows from V ~ V** either
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07:49:27 <shachaf> oerjan: wait, what was wrong with the thing i did yesterday?
07:49:37 <oerjan> i don't remember what you did
07:50:22 <shachaf> (V -o W) (V -o ((W -o F) -o F)) ((V (x) (W -o F)) -o F)
07:50:29 <shachaf> oh, right, and i wasn't sure about the last step
07:50:45 <oerjan> um it's V that needs to be finite dimensional, not W
07:50:45 <shachaf> but surely (V (x) W*)* = V* (x) W
07:51:02 <shachaf> we were talking about the case where V=W anyway
07:51:29 <shachaf> i guess now your question is more general
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07:53:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure (V (x) W*)* is only ~ V* (x) W if the whole thing is finite dimensional
07:53:18 <shachaf> http://planetmath.org/tensorproductofdualspacesisadualspaceoftensorproduct
07:55:28 <Jafet> I sorproduct pretty infrequently.
07:55:38 <oerjan> shachaf: it sounds like they're constructing something extremely non-canonical
07:57:01 <oerjan> and implying in a side note that it's better if one of the spaces is FD
08:17:11 <J_Arcane> http://blog.jle.im/entry/io-monad-considered-harmful
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09:42:14 <vanila> https://github.com/dramforever/kspl
09:42:18 <vanila> https://github.com/dramforever/kspl/blob/master/sample.kspl
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09:56:52 <mroman> NEVER watch guiness world records top 100
09:57:06 <mroman> unless you want to be disgusted
10:06:51 <Jafet> World's most disgusting world records program
10:20:21 <Jafet> vanila: you should be able to implement that with TeX...
10:21:21 <vanila> yes (I didnt make this)
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11:16:52 <Jander> I got my Lego BF interpreter working[0] last night. [0] It needs some attention around the rack/pinion interface, but apart from that it works :-)
11:18:30 <Jander> ty - I was very please when it managed to multiply 4*3 last night.
11:18:56 <Jander> Unfortunately a colleague has told me the tape drive sounds like a sarcastic duck - and he's right !
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11:21:00 <Jander> https://plus.google.com/photos/113373535180413523278/albums/6105388692419944513?authkey=CL2uopH9jZOkEQ
11:21:09 <Jander> Vid of it at work. Quack, quack, quack ...
11:29:50 <Jander> It doesn't sound as bad IRL, but maybe this is programmed in QF, for QuackF*ck ;-)
11:30:13 <Jafet> Hm, I can see a GIF preview but not any video.
11:30:25 <Jander> click on the gif I believe
11:33:37 <Jafet> Are the coloured squares the program or the tape? (Unfortunately I can't find any video.)
11:35:00 <Jander> Hmm. Wonder why you've got no video.
11:35:14 <Jander> https://plus.google.com/113373535180413523278/posts/D1rFySseXQ2
11:35:32 <Jander> Try that - public post, so you should be able to click the gif to get the video
11:41:04 <Jafet> Ah well, I found a video URL in the HTML text.
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11:50:37 <Jafet> That's interesting, the program is on the tape and I suppose the tape is in digital memory
11:50:55 <Jander> I don't store anything that's on the tape.
11:51:06 <Jander> The memory is internal - 256 bytes of it.
11:51:50 <Jander> I have a program counter and a stack internally - used to manage the [ ]
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11:52:12 <Jafet> What are the tank treads for, though?
11:52:33 <Jander> they are used to move the sensor/flipper arm in the Y-axis
11:52:44 <Jander> The rack/pinion moves it in the X-axis.
11:54:34 <Jafet> Yes, I don't quite see what they are for
11:55:40 <Jander> the arm underneath the bits is attached to them. The move that arm up/down to select which bit to test/flip
11:55:56 <Jander> The rack is used to select which nibble and which direction to test/flip
11:56:17 <Jander> I take it that it's not clear how they are used to move the arm in the video ?
11:56:53 <Jafet> That is clear, but the eight "bits" at the top of the frame aren't
11:57:07 <Jander> held above a sensor/flipper
11:58:03 <Jander> i'll be back in a while - I'll post some more vids that show the flipper in operation,
11:58:10 <Jafet> Can you explain, how they affect the interpretation of the program (or the other way round)?
12:00:54 <Jafet> Oh nevermind, clearly those are the input and output ports.
12:01:48 <vanila> i want to build a physical computer too
12:03:31 <Jafet> In principle you don't need a photosensor, you could control the tape with a stepper motor (but it will probably use an optical encoder internally)
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12:32:30 <mroman> I like the sound effects of that bf lego thing
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12:54:31 <Jafet> @let data DQ a = DQ (DQ (a, a))
12:55:55 <elliott> isn't that isomorphic to data X a = X X
12:56:56 <elliott> oerjan: thanks, but I don't think I need the link now that I had that realisation :P
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12:58:43 <Jafet> The Kaplan-Tarjan deque has something like DQ a = DQ0 | DQ [a] (DQ (a, a)) [a]
12:59:17 <Jafet> It just occurred to me that this is a very strange recursive type
12:59:28 <elliott> nested data types, I think they're called
12:59:31 <elliott> there's some paper about them
12:59:44 <elliott> data BinTree a = Leaf a | Branch (BinTree (a,a))
13:01:05 <Jafet> “Mycroft calls such schemes polymorphic recursions. We prefer the term nested datatypes” are they serious
13:02:15 <J_Arcane> http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=google.com
13:03:19 <elliott> polymorphic recursion is often used for the value-level version I guess
13:03:24 <elliott> but yeah nested data types is a weird term
13:05:48 <ais523> <Blackthorn> Please provide a regular expression that can parse JSON. Go ahead, I'll wait. ← http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2svijo/commandline_tools_can_be_235x_faster_than_your/cnvdsak
13:05:56 <ais523> I did it because I could, not because it's a good idea
13:08:17 <ais523> I haven't tried it on any really big JSON
13:08:22 <ais523> luckily, JSON has a really simple spec
13:08:31 <ais523> the main thing that took me problems was when it said "except control characters"
13:08:36 <ais523> *that gave me problems
13:08:39 <ais523> when it works in terms of Unicode
13:08:41 <vanila> but JSON is complex compared to s-expressin isnt it?
13:08:50 <ais523> vanila: yes, although not that much more complex
13:09:05 <ais523> s-expressions still need to distinguish between strings and numbers and atoms, normally
13:09:18 <ais523> so the only difference is that JSON has dictionaries and lists, and s-expressions just have lists
13:09:20 <vanila> you know the code you posted is not an regular expresison...
13:09:48 <Jander> Jafet, I still need the photo sensor as that's what reads the program
13:10:01 <ais523> vanila: indeed, it's a Perl regex
13:10:04 <ais523> which is a superset of regular expressions
13:10:20 <ais523> I knew that that was the sort of "regular expression" people wanted based on context, though
13:10:53 <ais523> JSON can't be parsed by a finite state machine (proof: 1, [1], [[1]], [[[1]]], etc.)
13:11:39 <vanila> [0] lol backreferences, lol sed is Turing-complete
13:11:42 <vanila> im not sure I undersatnd this ^
13:12:02 <vanila> or "I've just come to realize a sad fact though: processing raw text streams through mostly-regular languages is really weak"
13:12:26 <ais523> sed is TC, but it has nothing to do with backreferences
13:12:31 <ais523> deterministic-thue is trivial to implement in sed
13:12:44 <ais523> err, to compile into sed
13:12:45 <vanila> but baically what the fuck is he on about
13:13:44 <ais523> well, it's a random reddit comment thread
13:13:52 <ais523> so it might just be a random sequence of words that are vaguely related to the subject
13:14:08 <Jafet> Or vaguely unrelated, in this case
13:14:28 <vanila> does he know about parsing
13:14:43 <Jafet> The title post reminded me of a recent talk I attended, the speaker talked about challenges processing "several gigabytes" of medical records.
13:15:56 <vanila> ic ant make any sense of it
13:16:00 <ais523> it's interesting to see just how big "Big Data" is at any given point in time
13:16:19 <vanila> he seems to be saying regular languages (and by this he includes non regular languages too) isnt good for everything
13:16:23 <ais523> last time the question came up (a few weeks ago), someone defined it quite specifically as "the indexes of your database take up more than 224 gigabytes"
13:16:50 <ais523> because with today's technology, that's the point at which you need specialized hardware to be able to fit them all in memory on a single computer at the same time
13:17:11 <Jafet> Which chipset has this 224 GiB limit? (Presumably AWS uses it.)
13:17:42 <ais523> Jafet: that was actually the largest buyable AWS instance at the time of the comment
13:17:48 <ais523> but yes, it seems like a reasonable chipset limit
13:17:50 <Jafet> It still is, apparently
13:18:22 <Jafet> (and costs $3 per hour. Tempting...)
13:20:25 <Jafet> I think most chipsets have rounder numbers as limits
13:21:30 <ais523> 224 is moderately round
13:22:27 <blsqbot> | {1 2 4 7 8 14 16 28 32 56 112 224}
13:23:17 <ais523> using a factorisation primitive is almost as cheating as using a factorisation program ;-)
13:23:32 <ais523> now I want to write factor in underlambda
13:23:38 <ais523> the problem being I haven't figured out how arithmetic works yet
13:24:00 <ais523> anyone here have advice for writing pure-functional factoring algos?
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13:24:31 <ais523> I can implement loops as folds but it's a pain, and I can write fixpoint operators to get arbitrary loops but that's even more of a pain
13:24:36 <elliott> ais523: there are definitely plenty of servers with more RAM than 224 gigabytes
13:24:46 <elliott> I'm not sure that's even big data (tm)
13:24:56 <ais523> elliott: yes, but those are going to be specialized for the purpose of having a lot of RAM
13:25:05 <elliott> I mean, it's big, but I think Big means something... a bit more than "you need TWO servers!!"?
13:25:12 <ais523> it's the "indexes" bit that sold me, though
13:25:23 <ais523> like, how much disk space would you need to store the raw data for a database with 224GB of indexes
13:25:28 <ais523> actually I guess it depends on how many indexes you have
13:25:44 <elliott> I don't feel like database rows are usually that huge.
13:25:47 <Jafet> Does underlambda have integer division
13:26:27 <ais523> it doesn't even have integer addition yet
13:26:31 <ais523> or, well, it's easy enough to build it by hand
13:26:41 <ais523> the same way as in underload
13:26:52 <ais523> but it took me months just to figure out the I/O primitives
13:27:28 <ais523> I think addition, subtraction, multiplication, division/modulus are going to be high-tier primitives, though
13:27:28 <ais523> not sure if div and mod should be one operation or two
13:27:45 <Jafet> You could just split the search range recursively
13:27:53 <Jafet> I'm saying all this without knowing what underlambda is
13:28:33 <ais523> Jafet: underlambda is a project of mine to cross-interpret as many esolangs as possible to and from
13:28:46 <ais523> basically, it's a range of languages, each of which is a superset of the ones below
13:28:55 <ais523> and higher tier languages compile into lower tier languages
13:29:11 <ais523> the higher tier languages are intended to be reasonably pleasant to write in, if esoteric (think Funge-98)
13:29:16 <ais523> the lower tier languages are intended to be easy to implement
13:29:27 <Jafet> Oh, the r3.8x instance now offers 244GiB.
13:30:48 <ais523> maybe Amazon have some reason to be a little under 256GiB
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13:31:57 <elliott> ais523: because the systems are virtualised, say?
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13:32:05 <elliott> ais523: because the systems are virtualised, say?
13:32:09 <elliott> that leaves 12 gigabytes of RAM for the hypervisor
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13:32:33 <elliott> I think when you get an instance that large you get the entirety of one physical box
13:32:37 <elliott> (but you still run in Xen on it)
13:32:52 <ais523> I'm not sure whether the amount of RAM hypervisors needs scales with the size of the OSes they're managing
13:33:02 <elliott> 12 gigabytes seems like maybe a lot, but I guess it's probably needed for keeping track of all that RAM in internal structures and stuff
13:33:26 <elliott> they probably have fancy stuff on the boxes that needs RAM, anyway
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13:41:25 <Jafet> !blsq 256 20 2**.*4./
13:41:33 <Jafet> !blsq 256 2 20**.*4./
13:43:12 <mroman> !blsq %s=1024 "~ -> ~"|[%s? %s? 1024 ?/]|f~
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15:37:11 <oren> So it should be possible to translate some languages to otherslosslessly
15:38:51 <mroman> programming languages or natural languages?
15:39:01 <oren> programming languages
15:39:14 <vanila> yeah without interpretive overhead
15:40:09 <oren> if the set of primitive commands is the same but their syntax is different
15:40:54 <oren> but the definition of "primitive commands" can be made more general
15:42:18 <oren> But the key is, "losslessly" includes both loss of speed, and also loss of comprehensibility by humans
15:42:34 <vanila> i dont think you should factor in "comprehensibility by humans"
15:43:04 <mroman> you loose variable names when translating to brainfuck
15:43:22 <vanila> you will generally lose efificency too
15:43:25 <oren> Exactly, but not when translating to, say, C
15:43:51 <oren> So that is a loss of human-readablity
15:44:09 <oren> So which languages are compatible in this manner?
15:44:39 <oren> I think, for starters, C# and VB.net are
15:44:54 <vanila> ruby, python, perl , php
15:45:13 <elliott> there are differences in object models there
15:45:19 <elliott> that you'd have to model in a kind of ugly way
15:45:24 <oren> php loses the array-hash distinction
15:45:46 <elliott> almost no two real languages are going to be exactly compatible in this way
15:45:53 <elliott> but plenty of them have large, practical subsets which are
15:46:43 <mroman> obviously brainfuck and ook
15:47:00 <mroman> and all the other "Hey I'm a new esolang but it's just brainfuck using different symbols"
15:47:15 <mroman> int-e: Yes, I think that's the word for it.
15:47:22 <int-e> [-]Ook! is a brainfuck program
15:47:49 <mroman> it's probably also an Ook program
15:47:58 <mroman> Ook [-] polyglots should be really easy
15:49:33 <int-e> I guess you can encode the non-brainfuck operators as whitespace.
15:50:52 <int-e> Ook! doesn't have much leeway in its syntax.
15:50:54 <mroman> I guess translating C to C++ is pretty loss-lessy
15:51:41 <elliott> the other way around, though...
15:51:51 <oren> C++ written by me is translatable to C
15:51:52 <elliott> (yeah, I know that's how C++ started out.)
15:52:01 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_of_C_and_C%2B%2B#Constructs_valid_in_C_but_not_in_C.2B.2B
15:52:07 <elliott> in particular it's pretty much exactly impossible for C++ -> C
15:52:15 <elliott> because you have to erase templates
15:52:18 <oren> because the only features of C++ I use are vector and string
15:52:26 <elliott> C just isn't powerful enough for the translation
15:52:30 <mroman> but oren didn't ask for bijections!
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16:08:31 <zemhill_> web.Tripwire: points -21.40, score 6.55, rank 47/47
16:10:48 <zemhill_> web.Tripwire_M2: points -22.19, score 6.04, rank 47/47
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16:13:16 <oren> Is there a word for speaking another language so that someone can't butt in?
16:14:08 <oren> I mean a natural language.
16:15:03 <zemhill_> web.HyperShudder: points -4.45, score 15.71, rank 42/47
16:15:25 <oren> I have realized that my parents talk about me when they are speaking French
16:16:02 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker
16:16:23 <int-e> oren: so you know which language to study next :P
16:17:10 <elliott> okay you already said natural language
16:17:24 <elliott> this channel must be pretty weird if you don't know haskell though
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16:24:21 <mroman> This channel is just #haskell in disguise.
16:24:39 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
16:28:11 <HackEgo> 388) <augur> ive been in #haskell and #agda primarily, recently <Phantom_Hoover> So is #agda now full of dependently-typed gay sex?
16:30:19 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
16:30:48 <augur> it was always full of dependently-typed gay sex
16:30:49 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function.
16:30:49 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
16:31:18 <vanila> could oyu check my password or me
16:31:29 <mroman> instead of using your real name as a username and your date of birth as the password
16:31:39 <mroman> you should use your date of birth as the username and your real name as the password
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16:36:01 <oren> for stuff that doesn't matter, I use my favorite pokemon as the password. If someone knows my favorte pokemon, they're probably my friend anyway
16:36:16 <vanila> favorte pokemon is orenball
16:36:34 <loudspeaker> a regex that muches pokemons but not digimons
16:37:22 <b_jonas> fungot, what is oren's favourite pokémon
16:37:22 <fungot> b_jonas: and apparently if you fail, try mzscheme....
16:37:42 <fungot> vanila: f! " i knew mathematicians don't like vacuous jargons as the unix perl programing morons"
16:37:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:38:00 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
16:38:04 <fungot> loudspeaker: but a good one! it's funny this one time in high school, a friend, but i have a problem, t-rex?
16:38:13 <b_jonas> fungot: is it the charizard?
16:38:14 <fungot> b_jonas: but, it's this crazy/ wacky issue settled first, but it's a more familiar feeling, but never one to believe in love at all.
16:38:14 -!- fractal has joined.
16:38:24 <b_jonas> `8-ball is it the charizard?
16:38:46 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
16:39:23 <oren> ^8ball Um, What
16:39:44 <loudspeaker> ^8ball Are you lying about me really not having cancer?
16:39:48 <oren> I think it's broken
16:40:43 <oren> ^8ball are you just counting words?
16:41:01 <oren> ^8ball you are just counting my words?
16:41:19 <oren> ^8ball AAAAAAAAAAAA
16:42:40 <oren> So apparently a random boolean can in fact encourage insanity
16:43:26 <vanila> fungot, random boolean emerge
16:43:26 <fungot> vanila: i i guess and his skin, and all i memorized was how to cook a meal! oh, i wasn't talking about you here, i have and now god's in on it too, utahraptor
16:43:58 <loudspeaker> You know... the kind of raptors only found in Utah.
16:44:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:44:54 <oren> is europarl what i think it is?
16:45:19 <oren> is it the european parliament?
16:45:48 <oren> ^style europarl
16:45:48 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
16:45:52 <b_jonas> !fungot: do you wear heavy armor?
16:45:54 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, ' in a debate which touches on the foundations of the internal market, prompted by the recent amendment passed by the greek government has particular wishes, it will not fall over? we can start with this point so that we can act on its own, no matter where it is to syria's advantage. the war in former yugoslavia or countries stricken by natural disasters or to other victims. in fact it remains difficult,
16:45:59 <coppro> how do you add a corpus to fungot?
16:46:00 <fungot> coppro: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i welcome the amendments tabled by the committee on women' s health as a result of the referendum in western sahara in the short and medium distances, the railway is declining, and that is my response on behalf of information policy of the commission.
16:46:41 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
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16:46:50 <vanila> fungot, pleased to meet you
16:46:51 <fungot> vanila: this crash. unfortunately it was manned. ignore him.
16:47:10 <fungot> oren: wtf, way to go ahead and prove it, i won't. it could be a cast member for snl.
16:47:11 <int-e> coppro: how can you care about such things when the railway is declining!
16:47:29 <vanila> fungot, epic roof jump
16:47:30 <fungot> vanila: avril lavigne? if it's been that way since about 11:45 pm. i don't care, i was going to become a cast member
16:47:30 <fizzie> It's not counting words.
16:47:30 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
16:47:50 <fizzie> It is, however, based on the parity of the sum of all input bytes, if I remember right.
16:49:08 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
16:49:15 <fungot> oren: the registrar may change the probability of selecting that option.
16:49:26 <fungot> oren: iv) its recordkeepor; and sane. the
16:49:48 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
16:49:57 <oren> awesome fungot
16:49:57 <fungot> oren: just once, long ago, about being in soldier? you don't think they'd stand up to the beach! there are 2 angles to choose, i'd be good at escaping...
16:50:12 <fungot> oren: that's why we decided to help! my strange and wonderful little place. it's a reunion of childhood pals!
16:50:20 <fungot> fizzie: i'm all right, that's not what i do feel a little cold.
16:50:52 <coppro> so apparently in 1996, the Ontario legislature shrank by about 30 members. The law that did this was called the Fewer Politicians Act.
16:51:31 <oren> We need an Even Fewer Politicians ACT
16:51:37 <int-e> good start, but I'm impressed that politicians would go for it
16:51:57 <MDude> There's a distinct lack lf "reply hazy, try again" here.
16:52:20 <int-e> but I guess the remaining polticians are now receiving more money because their responsibilities have grown so much
16:52:48 <int-e> ... I see a pattern there
16:53:04 <int-e> ^8ball perhaps it depends on the question?
16:53:14 <int-e> ^8ball perhaps it doesn't depend on the question?
16:53:20 <int-e> ^8ball perhaps it doesn't depend on the question?
16:53:50 <int-e> partity of length?
16:54:23 <fizzie> int-e: I just told what it depends on.
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16:58:03 <fizzie> I wouldn't know about Amazon.
16:58:11 <fizzie> I think it's quite tropical.
17:00:06 <int-e> We appear to have reached a fixed point.
17:00:31 <fizzie> Thanks to how ASCII is laid out, any change that only affects upper/lowercase (at least for a..z) will never affect the result.
17:01:28 <int-e> and . has an even ASCII code as well, 46 :)
17:02:57 <fizzie> Right. But , does. So you can do quite a lot w.r.t. whitespace and punctuation.
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17:09:04 <fizzie> There is actually something I'd like to say, and I think it's quite likely I might be allowed to say it, but I'm not 100% sure about that, and you never know about these things.
17:11:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[German]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41718&oldid=38607 * 151.188.17.247 * (+82) Undo revision 24609 by [[Special:Contributions/97.113.234.143|97.113.234.143]] ([[User talk:97.113.234.143|talk]])
17:14:31 <MDude> Yes I too beleive recent advancements in technology are suspiciously geared towards facilitating the dominance of bees.
17:14:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41719&oldid=38250 * 151.188.17.247 * (-6461) fuck you bitches
17:15:17 <MDude> And those who speak up against the hives are liable to get stung.
17:15:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41720&oldid=41719 * 151.188.17.247 * (+215784)
17:16:33 <MDude> Whatever you say, I'm fairly sure you'll come off at least as more sensible than 151.188.17.247.
17:19:43 <MDude> Looks like someone wants to fork Record Management Services.
17:21:19 <MDude> If you're the guy to revert stuff, I would think so.
17:21:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41721&oldid=41720 * Ehird * (-209323) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/151.188.17.247|151.188.17.247]] ([[User talk:151.188.17.247|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:82.35.233.39|82.35.233.39]]
17:22:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[German]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41722&oldid=41718 * Ehird * (-82) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/151.188.17.247|151.188.17.247]] ([[User talk:151.188.17.247|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:78.10.83.44|78.10.83.44]]
17:22:38 <elliott> tbh I'm not sure I want to block them
17:22:43 <elliott> what hilarious edit will they come up with next
17:23:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:78.10.83.44]] with an expiry time of 1 day (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): promoting to sysop for highly valuable contributions to the wiki; please leave a note on your talk page if you're not up to accepting this responsibility
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17:25:02 <int-e> elliott: I'm confused, is that the IP you meant to block?
17:25:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] unblock * Ehird * unblocked User:78.10.83.44: revoking sysop access; turns out you're not the valuable contributor in question
17:25:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:151.188.17.247]] with an expiry time of 2 hours (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): promoting to sysop for highly valuable contributions to the wiki; please leave a note on your talk page if you're not up to accepting this responsibility
17:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:Ehird]] with an expiry time of 10 minutes (autoblock disabled): useless admin
17:34:00 <ais523> anyone here who's not connecting from a university, is JSTOR generally open-access?
17:34:26 <ais523> it's hard to tell because the connection here has rights to pretty much all the major journals already paid up
17:34:39 <fizzie> I don't think it's "generally" that.
17:34:51 <fizzie> Although it's hard to tell from here either.
17:35:03 <Qfwfq> It depends, a lot of the older ('public domain') materials are now free, but require an account.
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17:35:44 <elliott> ais523: aaron swartz rather famously tried to make it so :/
17:35:59 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out if JSTOR links are useful to people generally, my guess is no
17:36:14 <ais523> also I didn't realise that that was the publisher he was mass-downloading from
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17:37:23 <int-e> "open access" is when authors pay a 4 digit figure for a journal article to be freely downloadable later.
17:37:25 <Qfwfq> ais523: I get reliable access through Tor exits, though I'm not sure if tor2web (another aaronsw project..) permits circuit selection. https://gist.github.com/fmap/7c22bb6f382777dbdf96
17:37:53 <ais523> there has to be a better way, really
17:38:04 <ais523> I've taken to preferentially citing sources that are freely available online
17:38:05 <fizzie> I think IEEE wanted $1750 to make my IEEE journal article free.
17:38:09 <int-e> oh there are some people trying.
17:38:12 <ais523> technical reports, PhD theses, and the like
17:38:32 <int-e> like lipics for computer science
17:38:48 <ais523> wow, JSTOR is pretty overbearing for a nonprofit
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17:39:07 <ais523> and it comes with /three/ sets of "this is copyright JSTOR stuff with terms and conditions" comments, in the citation
17:39:09 <HackEgo> Qfwfq: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:39:11 <int-e> But there's a lot of prejudices to overcome, and a lot of pseudo-objective statistics (impact factor) to actually get academics to publish there...
17:39:12 <elliott> (hi, I don't think I've seen you around before)
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17:39:37 <Qfwfq> elliott: Hi, yorick suggested I visit.
17:39:54 <elliott> wow, visitors from lurkers
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17:40:32 <fizzie> ais523: They have plans for "people enthusiastic about research (whether personal or professional), but who do not belong to a university, organization, or public library with access to JSTOR".
17:40:36 <Qfwfq> Well, if the conversations sufficiently high-calibre, that's usually motivation enough.
17:40:51 <fizzie> ais523: You just pay $19.50/month or $199/year for a "JPASS", you see.
17:41:02 <elliott> Qfwfq: well, yes, if only that property held of this channel... >_>
17:41:11 <int-e> fizzie: ACM wanted $1700 ($1300 for members)...
17:41:34 <fizzie> int-e: Maybe they've standardized prices.
17:41:35 <elliott> (although I guess someone with the username "fmap" will probably fit in here.)
17:42:33 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, sadly, those prices are a lot less ridiculous than I expected
17:42:59 <ais523> (I mean, it's sad that I expected them to be more)
17:43:21 <fizzie> ais523: The ridiculousness is in the restrictions. You can read an unlimited number of full-texts in the (1800+) journals included in the collection, but you can "save" only up to 10/month.
17:43:58 <int-e> lest you be tempted to free them
17:44:47 <fizzie> "Register for a MyJSTOR account to receive free, read-only access to as many as 3 articles at a time for a 2-week minimum."
17:44:53 <fizzie> Read-only, as opposed to read-write.
17:44:59 <ais523> oh right, that deal at the end
17:45:00 <int-e> oh, I've never heard of this. "Pianist André Tchaikowsky donated his skull to the Royal Shakespeare Company for use in theatrical productions, hoping that it would be used as the skull of Yorick."
17:45:09 <ais523> actually that's much much better than most journals are
17:45:19 <int-e> That's kind of cool, in a creepy way.
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17:45:42 <ais523> although IIRC it used to be 4 at a time, with the two-week waiting period before you can un-checkout a paper to read another
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17:45:59 <int-e> ais523: according to wikipedia, yes they do.
17:46:35 <elliott> donating my skull to the royal shakespeare company but not to be yorick or anything, just in case they need a cool-ass skull to give off some spooky fucking ambience
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17:47:26 <int-e> ais523: oh well, read for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorick
17:48:10 <int-e> I guess Tchaikowsky would be disappointed.
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17:50:27 <ais523> anyway, I'm busy reading the proof that diophantine equations are TC
17:50:38 <ais523> because it came up tangentially in my thesis
17:52:22 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean the proof comes up? or just the result as a black box?
17:52:50 <elliott> int-e: well: In 2008, Tchaikowsky's skull was used by David Tennant in an RSC production of Hamlet at the Courtyard Theatre, Stratford-upon-Avon.[8]
17:53:01 <ais523> b_jonas: result as a black box
17:53:02 <elliott> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Tennant_and_Tchaikowsky_as_Hamlet_and_Yorick.jpg this is a really good filename
17:53:11 <ais523> or rather, it's a result I had to dodge
17:53:53 <ais523> I basically have a bunch of inequalities which use +, ×, and less-than-or-equal (why is that not on my compose key)
17:53:56 <ais523> on nonnegative integers
17:54:02 <ais523> and need to prove that in general this is decidable
17:54:20 <ais523> obviously it isn't with no restrictions, and I was citing that result to show that it isn't with no restrictions
17:54:25 <ais523> but I have a bunch of restrictions I can benefit from
17:54:27 <b_jonas> um, on what domains of the variables and the constants?
17:54:36 <ais523> nonnegative integers, for both
17:55:03 <b_jonas> isn't there some other theorem about something like this too?
17:55:40 <ais523> also something I discovered in my recent citation chasing (PhD is due at the end of the month): one of the lambda calculi (think it was typed, but it might have been untyped), and Church numerals, were published in the same paper
17:55:54 <b_jonas> due at end of month? great
17:56:34 <fizzie> Mine was "due" at end of last year and I didn't actually do it; now I get nag emails every so often about finishing it.
17:56:45 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I've heard that terrible things happen if I'm even marginally late
17:56:48 <ais523> it probably varies by institution
17:57:31 <fizzie> I don't think anything terrible will happen if I finish mine during, say, the first half of 2015.
17:57:56 <fizzie> (I'll get back to it "real soon now", there's just been too much hassle about moving and stuff.)
17:58:08 <fizzie> (At least that's the excuse I gave to the last nag email.)
17:58:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: but doesn't the thesis like keep levelling up and become harder to get the more you wait?
17:59:18 <fizzie> b_jonas: Well, they told me that every week of not working on it makes it take X units of time more when I eventually do.
17:59:29 <fizzie> (Where X was something like two weeks or a month.)
18:00:03 <b_jonas> I think it has a level limit though after which it doesn't get any harder
18:00:22 <fizzie> Yes, I think that's very common in most MMORPGs.
18:00:25 <fizzie> Welp, going to the shop. ->
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18:02:35 <b_jonas> the level cap also means they're not turing complete
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18:06:57 <oren> what is a good cinnamon for abstract?
18:08:33 <oren> cinnamons for abstract.
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18:09:17 <oren> So yeah I'm gonna call my language "notional cinnamon"
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18:10:07 <oren> nocin for short
18:10:18 <elliott> oren there's this thing where to communicate with people you have to use a language both of you understand
18:10:38 <oren> cinnamon sounds like synonym
18:10:57 <elliott> yeah I figured that out after I decided that you were making answering your question sufficiently difficult that I didn't care to :P
18:12:23 <int-e> elliott: very eloquent use of stuff 'n things there, dude
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18:12:55 <oren> So anyway the language has no syntax or grammar, it takes a stream of abstract 'symbols' which are currently implemented as words but could be subsituted
18:13:44 <int-e> ("Words are failing me to express how eloquent I'm feeling today.")
18:14:32 <oren> the idea was to produce a "core" to which several syntaces could be converted
18:15:28 -!- int-e has set topic: Eloquent Cinnamon | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:17:06 <int-e> oren: Are those apple cores? Apples go well with cinnamon.
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18:21:13 <oren> So for example, the "english math" syntax i am working on could be seamlessly exchanged for a "chinese" syntax
18:21:41 <oren> the interpreter would not need to know
18:23:54 <oren> The maker of code that needs to interoperate would need to provide symbol bindings for the new syntax though
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18:25:31 <oren> The fallback symbol bindings are just numbers
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18:38:21 <ais523> oren: that sort of syntactic translation was something cyclexa was meant to do
18:38:31 <ais523> but I decided cyclexa was probably beyond my abilities when I tried and failed to write a parser
18:39:48 <ais523> more recently, I realised that cyclexa has worrying similarities to Ursala's expression syntax
18:39:59 <ais523> they both aimed at the same goal, and achieved it in much the same way
18:40:09 <ais523> and the result is an unreadable mess, as is usual for esolangs
18:40:32 <oren> Currently i am only working on the backend
18:41:06 <oren> Each frontend can have arbitrary code which provides the symbol stream
18:42:52 <oren> The default syntax (a series of words which are codes for symbols) would be pretty unreadable
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18:46:32 <SuperJedi224> !ztest test >++[-.]<(>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*17>(-)*17)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:46:32 <zemhill_> SuperJedi224.test: points -0.98, score 20.22, rank 19/47
18:46:59 <SuperJedi224> !zjoust Hyper >++[-.]<(>)*9([(-)*8[+].]+>)*4(<)*4(<--<++)*4<--(>(+)*17>(-)*17)*4(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-].]>[(-)*8[+].])*-1
18:47:00 <zemhill_> SuperJedi224.Hyper: points -0.98, score 20.22, rank 19/47
18:47:33 <elliott> fizzie: is zemhill still broken?
18:48:09 <oren> array make set A number one push A set 1
18:48:38 <oren> whoops. set one
18:48:55 <SuperJedi224> It seems to have a limit of 47 programs on the list at a time though.
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19:20:11 <oren> is 2^256 large enough for the maximum number of variable names
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19:21:38 <oren> hmm, could be better
19:22:32 <oren> how long are variable names allowed to be in C
19:23:57 <oren> hmm... or should i just do bignums and to hell with it
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19:26:39 <fizzie> elliott: I upgraded the things. You know, those things.
19:26:47 <fizzie> elliott: So it's possible it has gotten fixed.
19:26:54 <fizzie> elliott: On the other hand, it's also possible it's not.
19:27:47 <oren> Is there a test sweet for zemhill?
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19:50:50 <int-e> b_jonas: *sigh* heavenly nostrils started out great but now it's full of reruns, sigh.
19:51:30 <b_jonas> int-e: I dunno, I think either it didn't really start out great, or I just can't help thinking of Ozy and Millie with nostalgia
19:51:37 <b_jonas> and see only the recycled jokes in Heavenly Nostrils
19:51:44 <b_jonas> also, did it really get renamed?
19:52:06 <int-e> Yes, apparently. I'd never heard of it before you brought it up.
19:52:27 <int-e> And I didn't think of Ozy and Millie, but of Calvin and Hobbes. Of course that's not coincidence...
19:52:29 <b_jonas> let's go back and read http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/
19:53:04 <b_jonas> Ozy and Millie is the obvious comparision because it's by the same author (Dana) and of similar style
19:54:01 <int-e> Ah, I didn't make the connection.
19:54:34 <int-e> Nevertheless, Bill Watterson has been a great influence on Dana.
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19:54:54 <b_jonas> there's at least one explicit reference
19:55:20 <b_jonas> http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/comic?n=20000713
19:56:10 <ais523> I'm looking for the original papers defining system F (two authors found it independently)
19:56:26 <ais523> one of them is /probably/ Jean-Yves Girard's thesis, but all the online copies seem to be corrupted
19:56:39 <ais523> too short and end "foo..bar" as a nonsequitur, I suspect there are problems earlier too
19:56:56 <ais523> also I find it hard to follow because my French isn't all that perfect
19:57:28 <int-e> b_jonas: http://i.imgur.com/PhP80yD.gif is the most blatant one in Heavenly Nostrils.
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22:36:20 <oren> Um, what? 17:26 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs) blocked Ehird (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 10 minutes (autoblock disabled) (useless admin)
22:36:37 <elliott> I'm a useless sysop who blocks the wrong people and I deserve punishment
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22:47:51 <int-e> mistakes were made and mended. nobody got hurt. much.
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22:58:11 <oren> so I have spent an hour listening to Julius Fucik. I forget why.
22:59:01 <oren> Whoops, that should be Fučík
22:59:30 <boily> helloren. helliott.
22:59:51 <elliott> is helliott anything like a hellion
22:59:55 <oren> He wrote the famous circus music "entry of the gladiators"
23:00:22 <int-e> welcome to helloily, behold the devoily?
23:01:18 <boily> elliott: do you consider yourself to be a Hell Creature? do you thrive in flames?
23:01:35 <elliott> boily: tbh I'm more of an... uh
23:01:38 <fizzie> I didn't even know about Heavenly Nostrils, but wasn't there already a third comic before that which repeated Ozy & Millie jokes?
23:01:43 <elliott> fuck I forget crawl demons. let's say neqoxec
23:01:57 <elliott> I think there's another one of the 3s I like the name of though
23:02:04 <elliott> maybe it isn't a 3 any more. I think they changed them around again
23:02:08 <boily> it's spelled like that. I tend to avoid neqoxec unless I can strike them before they do.
23:02:24 <elliott> what're the 1s called. what did fiend become again. god, I've forgotten so much
23:02:26 <boily> I haven't played dcss in quite some time. I got sidetracked by some cubes. and more cubes.
23:02:35 <elliott> I didn't even play until after they renamed fiend but all I can remember is fiend
23:02:40 <elliott> I know there's hell sentinels but what's the fiery 1
23:02:52 <boily> they renamed the fiends? blasphemy!
23:02:52 <elliott> brimstone fiend. that's it
23:02:58 <elliott> no see brimstone fiend used to just be
23:03:07 <elliott> and also, the numbers demons were on used to make no sense whatsoever
23:03:07 <boily> oh fungot do I hate the fiends.
23:03:07 <fungot> boily: that's why i have to cross when the stars can hear us? did you see his 48 years would only be given to me all the dresses.
23:03:18 <elliott> 2s are... reapers, tormentors, hellions, what else
23:03:26 <boily> oh, you're talking about even older dcss than I remember.
23:03:34 <boily> eh... hell beasts are 2s also, I think.
23:03:46 <boily> ah, the loroes. background noise.
23:03:59 <boily> big death yaks from hell, but nothing to worry about.
23:04:43 <elliott> 4s I don't know. there's like red demon and orange demon and other crap nobody cares about
23:04:58 <elliott> 5s is uh. ufetubi, imps, ?? other things ??
23:05:05 <elliott> that one really useless one that does nothing. or maybe that's just ufetubi
23:05:14 <elliott> hi this is a channel about dungeon crawl stone soup now
23:05:51 <boily> well, 5s are annoying when they're spawned by ynoxinules.
23:06:07 <elliott> ynoxinuls have the loveliest name <3 those are a 3, right
23:06:08 <boily> (or is it ynoxinuls? demonic plurals are hard.)
23:06:24 <elliott> crawl has some really good names
23:06:32 <boily> I like the sixfirhys. they're unusual.
23:06:40 <elliott> kikubaaqudgha, ereshkigal, oh yes sixfirhys
23:06:42 <boily> (or sixfirhies. damned plurals.)
23:07:21 <elliott> 23:07:18 <Sequell> sixfirhy[5/5]: Occurs halfway between 6:00 and 7:00
23:07:23 <boily> the fun of planning a raid against a unique &...
23:07:40 * boily facepalms. aaaaaaaaaurgh.
23:07:49 <elliott> ok ereshkigal isn't a name from crawl but whatever
23:07:53 <boily> the vile puns in dcss's lore...
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23:07:59 <elliott> that's not lore, that's just learndb :p
23:08:07 <boily> wasn't it inspired from some babylonian divinity?
23:08:10 <elliott> have you ever played crawl 4.1.2a
23:08:14 <elliott> you should try it sometime
23:08:19 <boily> lore, learndb, HackEgo... 'tis all the same.
23:08:32 <boily> like, the Original pre-dcss version?
23:08:58 <elliott> it's a never-finished alpha version of dcss after linley gave up on it but before dcss happened
23:09:14 <elliott> it's incredibly unbalanced and unplayable and has only been won once in the decade-ish it's existed
23:09:21 <elliott> it is also my favourite version of carwl.
23:10:17 <elliott> can't believe I missed that
23:11:19 <boily> I may be the only guy left who misses the Hive branch.
23:12:17 <boily> welcome... to 4.1... you can do anything... on 4.1...
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23:16:19 <elliott> well I'm glad we could have this talk
23:18:40 <elliott> please feel free to continue saying things about popular roguelike game dungeon crawl stone soup
23:21:26 <boily> I still remember my login infos. time to Gloriously Die in a Creative Manner!
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23:21:56 <boily> (huh. I had a game, and I'm in Zot:4...)
23:22:09 <boily> oh well. BANZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAI!
23:22:43 <elliott> can you make your terminal 80x24 so I don't have to buy a new monitor
23:23:03 <elliott> it's literally taller than my screen
23:23:23 <elliott> nice vorpal war axe in zot, btw
23:23:57 <elliott> boily can you ^F axe for me
23:24:02 <elliott> there has to be a better axe just lying around in the dungeon somewhere
23:25:28 <boily> there, that should do the trick.
23:25:44 <elliott> it's exactly the same actually :p
23:26:02 <elliott> seriously though you need to get a new axe
23:26:05 <elliott> how much axes skill do you have
23:26:36 <elliott> boily can you ^F executioner's axe, and then failing that ^F battleaxe
23:26:45 <elliott> and pick up literally any one of them and it will be so much better than the weapon you're currently using
23:27:19 <elliott> go get that draining one blessed at a TSO altar
23:27:26 <int-e> elliott: what's it, a feather duster?
23:27:26 <elliott> your weapon is so, so bad :(
23:27:50 <elliott> also just never use shields and axes :p
23:27:50 <boily> (meanwhile, oooooh...)
23:27:54 <int-e> (ftr, I know nothing about the game)
23:28:20 <elliott> executioner's might be better but eh this has a nice brand and you're not going to bother fetching the executioner's one anyway
23:28:39 <int-e> elliott: could've fooled me
23:28:39 <boily> elliott: besides, I can't really executioner that one, it has draining.
23:28:53 <elliott> like I said I'm pretty sure you can override that by blessing it at a TSO altar
23:29:00 <elliott> and then you get a holy's executioner axe and kick yourself for not doing extended
23:29:08 <elliott> unless you've uh, already done extended with a war axe
23:29:22 <boily> nah, I haven't extended yet.
23:29:35 <boily> and yes, I could TSO the fungot out of that axe.
23:29:35 <fungot> boily: there's no need for you! tell me? oh, you're late!
23:29:42 <boily> fungot: yes, there is a need!
23:29:42 <fungot> boily: cloud!! sure is cold.
23:29:48 <elliott> oh are you doing zot before extended
23:29:53 <elliott> or else why are you with TSO I guess
23:30:12 <elliott> this is probably annoying. do people want me to take this to another channel
23:30:50 <int-e> Ah, I knew "TSO" looked familiar, it's a Thread State Object.
23:31:21 <boily> I think I had plans a long time ago. probably going to wrap up that game and start something else. DD is interesting, but I want to go for the new classes and races and gods and everything.
23:31:43 <elliott> please promise me you'll never use a war axe in zot ever again
23:32:38 <elliott> given that this is the orb chamber you might wanna heal
23:32:52 <boily> I so can use a war axe in zot! common sense be damned!
23:33:13 <elliott> (you should recharge your healing wand)
23:33:42 <elliott> I'm so glad "p"eople happened
23:33:52 <elliott> I think that might have been my idea
23:34:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:36:06 <elliott> do you hit 5 all the time when playing DD to rest off the HP you can't
23:36:12 <boily> what about that fine and dandy axe stays in my own hands...
23:36:14 <elliott> actually I just don't play DD. or crawl
23:36:42 <elliott> are you going to teleport out of the orb chamber for fun and profit
23:37:44 <boily> of course I'm going to teleport like a madman.
23:38:04 <elliott> tbh at this rate you're going to attract every monster on the level before you get the orb
23:38:24 <elliott> doing something other than what you're doing
23:38:27 <elliott> orb guardians are faster than you
23:38:52 <boily> death happens. time to roll something!
23:39:04 <elliott> I admire your spirit but not your play
23:39:15 <boily> sorry for not surviving. I couldn't remember my whole character at once.
23:39:22 <boily> playing is made to be played.
23:40:18 <elliott> go chei and find a conj book please
23:40:40 <int-e> wait, did or did not boily die?
23:40:48 <elliott> boily died and then started a new game
23:40:55 <elliott> it was a very silly, avoidable death :P
23:41:04 <boily> my second win was through chei.
23:41:12 <int-e> we hate the unavoidable kind, it lacks hilarity
23:41:13 <boily> elliott: I know. the appeal of something else was strong.
23:41:14 <elliott> yes I noticed you played a mifi of chei
23:42:07 <elliott> int-e: you play nethack or something, right?
23:42:59 <int-e> elliott: tried, died, gave up
23:43:28 <elliott> I had you mentally filed as roguelike player for some reason
23:43:44 <int-e> But I found the wiki, so I know what "TSO" stands for now.
23:43:57 <boily> elliott: wait. did you just tell me to play a cecj? of chei???
23:44:03 <int-e> I know a bit about RPGs and dungeon crawls by osmosis.
23:44:25 <elliott> https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#tso <- more useful than the wiki
23:44:32 <boily> call me unaquainted with the game and some random neophyte, but isn't it really, really bad?
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23:45:08 <elliott> well centaur isn't the worst chei race by far
23:45:12 <elliott> like, it's a lot better than mifi of chei...
23:45:15 <elliott> I don't remember centaur magic apts though
23:45:26 <elliott> probably cecj of chei is just painful at first and then good and painful
23:45:29 <boily> mifi of chei is just plain ridiculous in the endgame.
23:45:39 <elliott> so is mifi of anything else but it isn't slow
23:45:44 <elliott> did they fix centaur hunger yet >_>
23:46:04 <elliott> you can play cene of xom that's a classic
23:46:18 <elliott> please don't play naga of chei ;_;
23:46:32 <boily> no, probably going vehumet or sif.
23:47:19 <elliott> nice D:1 boring beetle...?
23:47:39 <elliott> you can just avoid it, but... what abad monster placement
23:48:14 <boily> what the fungot is a boring beetle doing on D:1...
23:48:14 <fungot> boily: but, something strange just crashed into our truck!
23:48:14 <boily> (and why can't I z-a-f...)
23:48:26 <elliott> uh maybe you ran out of MP or something
23:48:39 <elliott> don't stand next to a boring beetle on D:1.
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23:49:00 * Sgeo bought Google Cardboard
23:49:00 <boily> I did. I was curious.
23:50:01 <elliott> maybe I should play crawl again
23:50:34 <boily> I should probably eat...
23:53:05 <int-e> Sgeo: a people origami project? "Join the fold"...
23:53:26 <int-e> (I did ... err ... google for it. So I'm joking.)
23:53:34 <boily> yup. time to satiate the thing shaped like me.
23:53:44 <elliott> how many things shaped like you are there
23:53:56 <int-e> boily: there's a voodoo doll shaped like you and it has to be fed?
23:54:32 <int-e> elliott: mirrors are mean duplicators
23:55:18 <int-e> (oh that reminds me: why do mirrors swap left and right but not up and down?)
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23:55:47 <elliott> int-e: actual question, or?
23:56:03 <int-e> elliott: it's a puzzle. not a hard one.
23:56:04 * Sgeo wonders if buying a Note 4 just for the VR experience would be worth it
23:56:10 <Sgeo> I do want a new phone sometime soon
23:56:31 <boily> int-e: that'd be useful to have a nice voodoo doll. I could scratch myself in all the nice parts without dislocating my shoulders.
23:57:02 <int-e> "all the nice part"
23:58:28 <boily> I didn't say, mean, or imply nothing, you pervert.
23:58:47 <elliott> what happened to eating :p
23:59:22 <int-e> boily: you could've said "hard to reach" and things would've been just fine...
23:59:54 <int-e> (there has to be a treasure down here somewhere!)
00:04:26 <oren> mirrors DONT swap left and right. they only swap forward and back
00:06:57 * boily doesn't trust oren's Arcane Optical Tricks. “mirrors swap left and right, I swear!”
00:07:44 <int-e> oren: ok, but then why do people think that they swap left and right?
00:08:41 <oren> because humans are bilaterally symmetrical.
00:09:15 <int-e> that does enter the picture
00:09:32 <oren> no wait, because they expect them to rotate
00:09:56 <int-e> but mostly it's that if we encounter a human we tend to see things from their perspective. So the hand to the right becomes their left hand.
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00:37:47 <oerjan> yay, i finally managed to restart my touchpad driver from a broken state without rebooting the whole computer!
00:38:15 <oerjan> (by the simple method of killing the process, no less)
00:39:03 <oerjan> my previous attempts foolishly tried to _run_ the program instead.
00:44:44 <oren> oerjan: I use pkill or taskmgr to solve any problem I have with any computer
00:44:52 <Taneb> Today I played video games from the 90's on a projector
00:45:46 <oerjan> oren: well this was with taskmgr so it worked out all right
00:47:09 <oren> task manager exists on Xubuntu too... I just realized this
00:51:00 <oren> although unlike windows, the windowing system for ubuntu often fails when applications go haywire
00:52:42 <elliott> boily: how about spgl of veh
00:52:46 <boily> it's very fun when your cursor just plain disappears.
00:52:52 <elliott> (rolls the heel) vsak of kiku
00:52:57 <boily> spgl... I haven't played sp in a looooong time...
00:53:08 <boily> kiku was kinda nerfed iirc hth.
00:53:43 <elliott> do you mean the books change
00:53:45 <boily> but right now I'm hitting cubes, placing cubes, walking on cubes, arranging cubes...
00:53:51 <boily> no, the corpse cap.
00:53:52 <elliott> I mean kiku is still incredibly good
00:54:02 <boily> before I just spammed that ability to no end!
00:54:21 <elliott> see this channel used to be entirely about crawl, and then a while before that it was entirely about minecraft
00:54:29 <elliott> so I'm getting some good nostalgia in her
00:55:22 <boily> #esoteric is a good chännel.
00:55:31 * oerjan must have missed most of the crawl
00:55:35 <elliott> it actually sucks, but yes
00:55:47 <oerjan> you forgot dwarf fortress, however.
00:55:51 <elliott> oerjan: tbh it wasn't that long, compared to the minecraft. it was when I got into crawl
00:56:27 <elliott> boily: is minecraft still ruined by trying to be an rpg for no reason >_>
00:56:52 <oren> I play dwarfortress
00:57:57 <Jafet> Do you roleplay a miner
00:58:13 <oren> I play it extremely badly
00:58:24 <boily> elliott: no, not really.
00:58:39 * boily builds stuff. it is artistically unique.
00:58:55 <elliott> do you use creative mode... that's a level of personal purity I could never attain
00:58:58 <oren> currently my dwarves are covered in blood and trying to drag bodies across a lake
01:02:19 <Jafet> If minecraft was based on cubic graphs, could you get miners on minors
01:02:53 <boily> elliott: no, survival.
01:03:41 <elliott> my favourite is, like, survival in peaceful with no hunger tbh
01:03:59 <elliott> also preferably without health, and where you can duplicate any item as much as you want, like back in the good old multiplayer days
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01:04:13 <Taneb> elliott, that was how I learnt to play
01:04:17 <elliott> and also minecart boosters should work, *shakes fist*
01:04:38 <boily> POWERED RAILS MASTERRACE!
01:04:44 <Taneb> Man, those things were ridiculous
01:04:57 * boily mumbles against stupid boosters that didn't work half of the time. *grmbl*
01:05:11 <elliott> let's not make literal nazi ideology jokes, imo
01:05:21 <Jafet> If a dwarf fortress military is based on pickaxe warfare, would its leader be Major Miner
01:05:45 <boily> elliott: sorry. can I still mapole Jafet?
01:06:02 * boily joyfully thwacks Jafet again
01:06:03 <elliott> powered rails are so slow :(
01:06:28 <boily> they work quite nice. guaranteed 8 m/s when placed at each 32 blocks.
01:06:45 <boily> (optimal placement is 34, but 34 is not a nice round whole number.)
01:06:50 <elliott> one block is a metre, right
01:07:36 <Taneb> Speaking of METAR, it's warmer than it was this morning
01:07:50 <lambdabot> EGCC 240050Z 28009KT 9999 FEW024 SCT038 04/02 Q1017 NOSIG
01:08:21 <Taneb> It looks like it warmed up consistently from about 8am to 11pm today here
01:08:36 <Taneb> Who on earth's in Manchester
01:09:06 <elliott> what was the gcc fork called
01:09:26 <boily> Taneb: I tried to quickly find some airport near York.
01:09:32 <lambdabot> CYUL 240100Z 22015G21KT 15SM -SHSN FEW030 OVC070 M02/M06 A2987 RMK SC1AC7 SLP117
01:09:42 <Taneb> boily, Leeds-Bradford is the closest
01:09:56 <Taneb> I use weather.elec.york.ac.uk, because it's about a mile from my house
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01:11:15 <lambdabot> CYYZ 240100Z 23010G15KT 12SM SKC M04/M06 A2989 RMK SLP129
01:11:47 <boily> oren: are sidewalks in Toronto as bad as they are here?
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01:12:48 <oren> boily: they have to be replaced every decade about
01:15:16 <boily> oren: sounds about the same.
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01:19:10 <oerjan> <oren> no wait, because they expect them to rotate <-- http://xkcd.com/123/
01:23:41 <boily> you know you're an xkcd addict when you don't even have to click the links...
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01:30:46 <oerjan> boily: i'd say that depends, did you guess it from the oren quote or from the comic number twh
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01:32:26 <oerjan> then you're only semi-addicted hth
01:33:04 <CrazyM4n> I knew that one from the comic number, but it's the only one I know because it's 123
01:33:09 <int-e> http://xkcd.com/386/ is the only one I recognize by number, I think. I link to that one a bit more frequently than I should.
01:33:24 <CrazyM4n> And you kinda made me realize that I'm quite an xkcd addict too D:
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02:00:36 <zzo38> I tried to use nc -e with a outgoing connection to execute Cygwin's cat -v and while it worked, then typing exit didn't close the window (although I could still close it with the control box).
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02:03:40 <zzo38> I see that "simonpj has suggested simply making _every_ type Typeable" and "someone suggested not requiring Typeable constraints
02:03:57 <zzo38> I suggest that Typeable constraints should be required, although every type should also automatically be made Typeable.
02:04:26 <oerjan> i think dropping Typeable constraints will harm parametricity
02:04:54 <zzo38> Yes, I do not want to drop Typeable constraints
02:05:23 <oerjan> especially since unlike Coercible and the old Eval(?) class for seq, you need actual runtime date.
02:05:37 <zzo38> But I want to drop deriving(Typeable) so that it automatically does that instead
02:05:59 <Sgeo> So type erasure will die?
02:06:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: it would if you dropped the constraints too
02:06:29 <zzo38> What does type erasure mean?
02:06:51 <oerjan> zzo38: that you don't need to pass type information unless you actually need it
02:07:31 <oerjan> especially important for polymorphic values where there might not _be_ any type information attached to the value itself.
02:07:36 <zzo38> Yes you still don't need to pass type information if you don't have a Typeable constraint.
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02:08:17 <zzo38> So a class or function or whatever that requires Typeable should still be require to mention such thing
02:10:26 <zzo38> My suggestion is only to make it so that all Typeable instances of all types are automatically defined (so you don't need to write deriving(Typeable) in order to define it), although this fact is supposed to be unprovable within the type system therefore you can't use the Typeable instance in a polymorphic function if you don't explicitly request it.
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02:21:10 <Sgeo> "CAREFUL: Don't use Vireio Perception with multplayer games with anti-cheat measures as the software could get recognized as a hack and either kick you or ban you.
02:21:19 <Sgeo> I assume that Second Life does not have anti-cheat features
02:23:47 <zzo38> Isn't source-codes for Second Life available? If so then you can see if it has any anti-cheat features or not
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02:34:28 <oerjan> zzo38: it might be like with reddit, where the anti-cheat features are the one part of the code which is not open sourced
02:35:53 <zzo38> Presumably the code would still have to link to it though?
02:56:50 <oerjan> there could be a general api for running extra services, though
02:56:54 <Sgeo> So, if the relationship between my dad and my step-mother is so dysfunctional that my dad lies to my step-mother constantly (admittedly usually to protect me from her insanity) and expects me to play along with everything, and I end up not just being quiet like an asshole when she talks to me, is it reasonable that he would get mad at me?
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02:58:19 <Jafet> Does your step-mother have anti-cheat features
02:58:37 <oerjan> i think the word "reasonable" has already run away screaming long before you reached that point. try "probable" instead.
03:02:25 <oerjan> or you could try running away screaming, maybe you'll catch up with reason that way.
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04:14:01 <Sgeo> I found a new virtual world
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05:05:34 <zzo38> Some idea of Magic: the Gathering cards to make up: [1] A card with protection from permanents. [2] A card with protection from legendary. [3] A card with an overload cost less than its normal mana cost. [4] Auras with evoke. [5] Noncreatures with dash. [6] Planeswalkers with additional card types. [7] Noncreatures with offering and/or champion. [8] Offering with noncreature subtypes.
05:07:26 <shachaf> zzo38: What would an interesting use of [3] be?
05:23:20 <zzo38> I am not completely sure!
05:23:59 <MDude> SGeo: New virtual world sounds neat
05:24:14 <shachaf> Perhaps: Return target creature you control to your hand.
05:24:20 <Sgeo> babylon.vrsites.com
05:24:21 <shachaf> But that's not particularly great.
05:24:26 <Sgeo> http://janusvr.com/
05:25:09 <Sgeo> It parses HTML-like pages accessible via HTTP for special tags defining the virtual room
05:25:30 <Sgeo> So, anyone can host a 3d room, and I think also the 3d chat somehow, although apparently everyone currently uses one particular host for that
05:25:46 <Sgeo> It also has hardcoded page to room transformations for a few sites like Reddit and Imgur
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05:32:27 <MDude> I like that, but don't like that it's apparently a closed thing.
05:33:04 <MDude> Since I figure browsers should be run on open standards, and if it's making rooms out of web pages then it's certainly a browser.
05:33:21 <Sgeo> Hmm, where does it say it's closed?
05:33:25 <MDude> Anyway, I'm messing with Flatland Rover and being asked to reset the comptuer.
05:34:23 <Sgeo> Isn't that ancient?
05:34:39 <Sgeo> I think it was Flatland sharing the name with the book Flatland that got me into virtual worlds
05:35:09 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/janusVR/comments/28se0z/janus_vr_consolidated_suggestions_list/
05:35:12 <MDude> That's why it's being such a pain.
05:35:12 <MDude> http://www.flatland.com/blog
05:35:25 <Sgeo> One of the suggestions on there is to open source it. That suggestion comes from the creator
05:35:30 <Sgeo> So it will probably be open sourced
05:36:33 <MDude> I don't even mind if it's closed source as a program.
05:36:53 <MDude> Just that it follows an open set of protocols that other browsers can try to be compatible with.
05:37:18 <Sgeo> Best explanation I've seen
05:37:18 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/janusVR/wiki/index
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06:01:41 <zzo38> Is there IRC bot program in C?
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06:32:15 <oren> apparently an underground cavern is a good place to dump a neverending flow of water
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06:55:00 <oerjan> what, an ordinary cavern?
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09:21:19 <fizzie> zzo38: The venerable Eggdrop is written in C, if I recall correctly.
09:22:23 <fizzie> I used to run an Eggdrop, I think that was about 15 years ago.
09:23:55 <fizzie> (There is a Tcl scripting interface, so many of the available extra things it can do are written in that. But there's also a C module interface.)
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09:58:52 <loudspeaker> I'm so math right now I want to calculate the acceleration of electrons in an electric field.
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10:03:29 <loudspeaker> (I figured I should learn more math so I ordered some books mathoverflow recommended)
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11:08:56 <Lilax> I passed finals, Now to program things
11:09:18 * oerjan finally sees the ingressive yes youtube video everyone else must have been watching
11:10:03 <oerjan> that's definitely not a thing i've heard of before
11:10:16 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URgdIAz4QNg
11:11:06 <oerjan> the version i've heard before definitely is a "ja", just on inward breath
11:11:48 <Lilax> I guess it sounds different
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12:02:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URgdIAz4QNg <-- you never heard of this before?
12:03:39 <Vorpal> It is basically a "jo" while inhaling instead of exhaling.
12:05:08 <Vorpal> Lilax, who do I have the pleasure of speaking to?
12:05:29 <Vorpal> I do not recognize that nick name
12:05:52 <Vorpal> (But you apparently recognize me?)
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12:12:17 <Lilax> Oh man so many net splits today
12:12:33 <Lilax> Net splits sound painful
12:13:20 <elliott> if your net split all the fish would fall out of it.
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12:33:59 <FR34K> So what's this channels bout
12:34:19 <HackEgo> FR34K: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:34:26 <FR34K> Esoteric stuff.... Like mystery schools of the past
12:34:59 <myname> imho it's mainly about computer science
12:36:20 <FR34K> I cart rainbows so I'm in
12:38:53 <FR34K> Well have good one ya all
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12:39:30 <elliott> carting rainbows from city to city
12:52:36 <elliott> https://github.com/r0nk/corvus brainfuck genetic programming
12:53:27 <myname> i thought of something like that, too
12:53:39 <myname> maybe other kinds of genetc
12:53:49 <Lilax> that looks amazing
13:25:41 <elliott> it's a shame nobody has ever managed to do an evolver for BF Joust that actually made useful warriors
13:25:46 <elliott> I'd really like to see that
13:25:59 <elliott> um, unless Lymia ended up with something that worked
13:26:23 <Lymia> It worked on a less mature hill
13:30:30 <Lymia> I probably need a larger testing hill, and more evolvable programs
13:40:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hi: 0.0
13:41:09 <elliott> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ here
13:41:15 <zemhill_> Lymia.hi: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
13:41:21 <elliott> the zem.fi one might still have broken scoring though... or maybe not.
13:41:21 <Lymia> It has its own command
13:41:26 <elliott> but it's the one people have been using.
13:41:37 <elliott> it has that fancy matrixy scoring system
13:41:44 <elliott> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/
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13:42:45 <Lymia> Get the program to generate a program to beat all programs ona hill up
13:42:52 <Lymia> I know how it would work
13:42:59 <Lymia> I need to implement bfjoust to make it happen
13:43:01 <elliott> you do? I thought we proved that's impossible
13:43:13 <Lymia> You did, for carefully constructed hills
13:43:20 <Lymia> This is not a carefully constructed hill
13:43:30 <elliott> oh, okay, so it's just an as-good-as-possible thing rather than theoretically perfect
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13:46:15 <elliott> what's your basic strategy? :o
13:46:43 <Lymia> Simulate every bot on the hill at once
13:46:54 <Lymia> On all possible tape lengths and polarities
13:47:26 <Lymia> So, (Tape Position, [(Enemy Bot State, Tape State)])
13:47:51 <Lymia> Then, do some brute force/hirsutics to construct branches at the right places to distinguish as many of the bots as possible.
13:47:57 <Lymia> From there, it's brute force a solution.
13:49:17 <elliott> hirsutics: heuristics for detecting hirsutism
13:49:28 <elliott> Lymia: do you just run them as if there's no enemy bot?
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13:49:52 <elliott> like, usually you'd simulate two bots at once on a tape
13:50:01 <elliott> do you just do the simulation by pretending the other program is empty?
13:50:04 <elliott> or am I not understanding at all
13:50:32 <Lymia> It builds the program for the output "hill beater" bot as it goes-- there is no program for that yet.
13:50:54 <Lymia> It has an array of tape states and enemy bot states-- splitting every bot into a seperate one for every tape length and polarity.
13:51:12 <Lymia> Then, it selects a move, and applies that move to all of those tape states, and lets the enemy bot run.
13:51:35 <Lymia> Branches, ofc, would be generating an [a]b then recursing
13:51:39 <elliott> this sounds like you are going to need a lot of RAM :P
13:51:41 <Lymia> Which would be used to distinguish bots.
13:52:43 <elliott> if you need a machine to run it on and don't have a decent one I have an i7 with 16 gigabytes that spends most of its cycles doing whatever chrome thinks it should hog all the CPU by doing :p
13:52:55 <Lymia> I doubt it'd be that expensive
13:53:22 <elliott> clearly you should run it on a GPU. or an FPGA. GPUs and FPGAs are the solution to literally everything. *especially* inherently serial, memory-hard problems.
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13:54:34 <elliott> inherently cereal problems.
13:54:47 <elliott> yeah okay I'm useless right now
13:54:49 <Lymia> I don't want to abuse my poor CPU
13:55:15 <elliott> it would be cool if you could somehow do this kinda simulation without keeping a copy of every single tape
13:55:29 <elliott> like some way to "collapse" it down into something that only captures the variations, somehow
13:55:30 <Lymia> It's not a big deal, anyway
13:55:49 <elliott> but what if you want to run it on a hill with ten trillion programs
13:56:00 <elliott> you need VC money to buy a supercomputer to do this >_>
13:56:11 <Lymia> About 1 MB for tape
13:56:46 <Lymia> The hill, and ~900 programs not on the hill so it can detect when it's fighting something it doesn't know and switch to a generalist program
13:57:47 <Lilax> Why is it still in here?
13:59:00 <elliott> the bfjoust hill on it was just broken for a while, I think
13:59:07 <Lilax> mmm when a znc ddos's you by accident
13:59:12 <elliott> maybe it's working again now but everyone already moved to zemhill_ because it's nicer (modulo possible scoring brokenness that might have gone away by now?)
13:59:41 <Lilax> Or the egobots prefix is invalid and it actually works but doesn't respond
13:59:54 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_q: 0.0
14:00:18 <Lilax> But not as fast as it was
14:02:35 <Lymia> elliott, possible broken scoring
14:02:43 <Lymia> Only when something gets 100% wins, right?
14:02:55 <elliott> Lymia: there was some very weird problem with the scoring that involved a bug in one of the libraries fizzie was using or something
14:03:00 <elliott> and now he's updated it so maybe it'll be gone?
14:03:03 <elliott> I forget what it was, honestly
14:03:10 <elliott> but if you notice the scoring doing something really weird it might be that.
14:04:28 <Lymia> <elliott> clearly you should run it on a GPU. or an FPGA. GPUs and FPGAs are the solution to literally everything. *especially* inherently serial, memory-hard problems.
14:04:31 <Lymia> The really memory hard thing
14:04:38 <Lymia> Is that everything has to be immutable
14:04:44 <Lymia> So I can backtrace and lookahead
14:05:02 <elliott> you could do it in haskell and construct an infinite tree of possible actions or whatever
14:05:37 <Lymia> I'd be using heavy hirsutics at all points
14:05:42 -!- nys has joined.
14:05:47 <Lymia> (and I need a name)
14:05:58 <Lymia> (Lymia~omniscience? :D)
14:08:30 <Lymia> How about we not talk about my spelling. :o
14:09:13 <Lymia> If I intentinoally lose one match
14:09:19 <Lymia> I can avoid making Markov scoring do 100:0, right?
14:09:28 <Lymia> And stop the rest of the hill from getting stomped by randoms
14:10:05 <elliott> I don't think 100% is a problem with the Markov scoring?
14:10:15 <elliott> I think it smooths out all the weirdness
14:10:27 <Lymia> intentional_loss (.)*58442-
14:10:36 <Lymia> intentional_loss (.)*58442(<)*10-
14:10:46 <Lymia> intentional_loss (.)*58442(>)*10-
14:10:50 <Lymia> My brain stopped breaking
14:11:18 <elliott> (wouldn't the simplest intentional loss just be <?)
14:11:30 <Lymia> It's an intentional loss for the "beat hill" program
14:11:39 <Lymia> Which would be set to die to that program exactly on one tape length and polarity
14:12:02 <elliott> to be honest I wouldn't bother, getting 100% would be fun
14:12:11 <elliott> plus how would you keep intentional_loss on the hill?
14:12:18 <Lymia> It wouldn't stay :D
14:12:32 <Lymia> I wonder what the scores would look like
14:12:41 <Lymia> If I try to lose to my own nyuroki if possible
14:12:46 <Lymia> But beat everyone else up
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14:48:35 <Jafet> @oeis 2,5,37,137438953481
14:48:36 <lambdabot> Bertrand primes III: a(n+1) is the smallest prime > 2^a(n).[2,5,37,137438953...
14:50:19 <myname> i should define some obscure prime sequence myself
14:51:30 <Jafet> You could try calculating the next term of this sequence instead
14:51:46 <int-e> Jafet: it doesn't exist ;-)
14:51:49 <Jafet> "Although the exact value of the next term is not known, it has 41373247571 digits."
14:52:12 <Jafet> Some would postulate that it does
14:52:16 <int-e> (I know, I'm being silly.)
14:53:45 <Jafet> (This sequence shows that there is a real c>1 such that floor(2^c), floor(2^2^c), floor(2^2^2^c)... are all prime.)
14:55:19 <elliott> that's making me think of a programming language where a program is a real and some predefined function is iterated successively on that real and that's the output, or something
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14:55:33 <elliott> and if it reaches 0 it terminates, or something
14:55:58 <Jafet> Real-valued computers
14:56:13 <elliott> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag#Arithmetic_interpretation_of_BCT
14:56:29 <Jafet> Though oddly enough if you only allow basic arithmetic operations on reals your language isn't even TC
14:56:34 <elliott> Jafet: like blum-shub-smale? are programs reals in that?
14:56:38 <elliott> I thought it was more that they operated on reals
14:56:40 <int-e> ok, the first digit of 2^137438953481 is 2, so Bertrand's postulate is enough to determine the number of digits.
14:56:48 <elliott> Jafet: the idea would be that the predefined function is baked into the language
14:56:54 <elliott> and the program is just a real
14:59:15 <Jafet> Well, any function that generates a known fractal
15:00:14 <elliott> hmm, would that make it TC?
15:00:32 <Jafet> Depends on the fractal
15:00:40 <int-e> 2^137438953481 = 28024843513561521356110345211558172132560257908867...67016571720973332183893354652688057470310890340352
15:00:42 <Jafet> Are you turing complete
15:00:56 <int-e> I wonder if there's a good way to get some middle digits...
15:01:28 <int-e> Jafet: that's unlikely.
15:01:37 <Jafet> Well, not in decimal.
15:01:51 <int-e> Right. I meant decimal digits.
15:02:10 <int-e> bases 2,4,8,16,etc are somewhat boring.
15:03:18 <Jafet> Hmm, what if you predefine a continuous function
15:04:02 <int-e> (the brutal way would work, storing the whole result in binary would take less than 20 gigabytes.)
15:04:04 <Jafet> (continuous is not the right word)
15:04:50 <int-e> (and, of course, be nicely compressible)
15:05:00 <elliott> Jafet: do you have any reading material on iterating a fractal like that letting you encode turing machines?
15:06:23 <Jafet> Reading? Sounds hard
15:10:15 <Jafet> "[...] show that for every Turing machine there exists a fractal set which can be viewed, in a certain sense, as geometrically encoding the complement of the language accepted by the machine"
15:10:58 <elliott> so you pick a fractal that can be viewed as a UTM, okay.
15:11:07 <elliott> I wonder what doing the computation would actually look like though...
15:11:26 <Jafet> They use IFS, so each operation is an affine transform
15:12:17 <elliott> does the computation turn into the fractal, or can you make a fractal which can do multiple computations depending on where you look? like, do you get "input"?
15:12:18 <int-e> how do you read off a result from an IFS?
15:12:22 <Jafet> It looks like they look at the entire fractal though, so it's nondeterministic in some sense
15:12:40 <int-e> (or the sets of points produced)
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15:13:18 <elliott> right. for this I guess you'd want a fractal where you encode the input in the coordinate pair
15:13:20 <Jafet> http://www.complex-systems.com/pdf/07-6-2.pdf courtesy of the googlebot
15:13:42 <elliott> of course it's in wolfram's journal
15:13:50 <myname> int-e: what the hell does your kimariji solution work?
15:14:26 <int-e> myname: it's simple: it does not build a trie.
15:14:28 <elliott> anyway, you can make a very boring but obvious TC language with the reals this way
15:14:29 <Jafet> Prove once again that haskell golfing basically reduces to abusing list comprehensions
15:14:54 <elliott> treat the real as an infinite string of binary digits, interpret it as infinite program text in $your_favourite_language, run it on the input given
15:15:19 <elliott> well. then the function isn't actually total
15:15:34 <elliott> f = do one step in $lang and return the state encoded into another real, I guess
15:15:41 <elliott> but of course you'd really want to pick a nicer f than that >_>
15:16:34 <int-e> myname: [v|u:v<-x,u==y] collects the tails of those line (suffixes) that match the current line (prefix). This is just what you'd do when building a trie, but here the code is fused with the trie lookup.
15:17:11 <Jafet> You don't even need most of the reals for that. Just let f be the steps in a fractran utm
15:17:31 <int-e> myname: and the [_] matches once the suffix is uniqe.
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15:18:41 <elliott> that's why it's a boring solution
15:18:50 <elliott> ideally f would be continuous or something else like that.
15:20:01 <Jafet> You could use a vector field that pushes a point around in R^n
15:23:02 <int-e> myname: maybe you should just walk through the code on a small input like f ["abc","d","abd"]. Note that the code will fail if any two lines are identical.
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15:29:57 <int-e> myname: http://lpaste.net/1836539165504700416
15:30:56 <int-e> oh, some of those "abc" are really "abcd"; I should not change the input in the middle of writing up the evaluations.
15:31:32 <int-e> myname: so try this instead, http://lpaste.net/3786567722205184000
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15:33:53 <myname> I assume line 15 should be 'd' instead of a :p
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15:34:52 <int-e> but you can see that the first argument to ? are the suffixes of the lines that match the already consumed prefix.
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15:38:39 <Jafet> Hmm could you naturally extend a generalised collatz function to the complex plane
15:38:57 <Jafet> That would give a fractal with provably undecidable properties
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15:40:54 <fractal> ahh now this is relaxing :)
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17:06:40 <Sgeo> I spent $30 and it's missing a part
17:06:43 * Sgeo is very pissed off
17:09:42 <Jafet> Is it reasonable for you to be pissed off
17:11:52 <Sgeo> Google Cardboard
17:12:00 <Sgeo> It's missing a washer
17:14:14 <Jafet> You spent $30 on cardboard?
17:15:29 <oerjan> i don't recommend washing cardboard hth
17:16:54 <Sgeo> It includes lenses a magnet and NFC thingy
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17:30:03 <fizzie> I was thinking of trying out the Cardboard, but I don't have anything to put in it.
17:32:28 <int-e> . o O ( oh you people with stereoscopic 3D vision )
17:33:06 <fizzie> Sgeo: Whose Cardboard did you buy? AIUI, we don't actually sell anything physical related to it.
17:33:25 <Sgeo> I AM CARDBOARD
17:33:57 <fizzie> I totally misinterpreted that at first.
17:34:23 <fizzie> No, no, it's the name.
17:34:26 <int-e> let's play umbrella - rain - cardboard
17:34:40 -!- h0rsep0wer has joined.
17:34:48 <fizzie> int-e: Cardboard beats umbrella?
17:34:52 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:34:53 <int-e> (I guess the cardboard wins over the umbrella in the same way that paper wins over stone)
17:37:21 <boily> 3D is one dimension too much for me. this kind of thing gives me headaches.
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17:38:10 <myname> boy, RL must be hard for you
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17:38:53 <boily> artificial 3D, like on nintendo's 3DS.
17:39:17 <int-e> what about 3D cinimas?
17:40:35 <boily> I have to be seated near the middle of the center row. otherwise I can't focus. and even then I can't perceive the added 3dness, unless it's that scene where objects float incredibly near you.
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17:57:59 <fizzie> We just went to a "4D experience".
17:58:12 <fizzie> https://www.londoneye.com/AboutUs/4D-Experience/
17:58:27 <fizzie> "-- our new 4D Experience is a groundbreaking 3D film with spectacular in-theatre effects including wind, bubbles and mist to add a breathtaking fourth dimension --"
17:58:49 <int-e> Coca-Cola London Eye ... I'm tempted to stop reading.
17:58:53 <fizzie> (An amusement park back in Finland has been using the "4D" term for quite a while, and I'm sure it's common elsewhere.)
17:59:04 <fizzie> int-e: That's why it's lit up red now, or so I've understood.
17:59:30 <int-e> I'm afraid to ask what they do for Christmas
18:01:11 <fizzie> I wasn't here to see that.
18:22:11 <Taneb> fizzie, it's pretty common term
18:22:40 <Sgeo> Maybe I should buy a similar plastic thingy
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18:22:53 <Sgeo> Which will presumably be non-defective
18:22:54 <Taneb> int-e, it was originally the British Airways London Eye
18:23:06 <Sgeo> Or maybe hardware store has washer? I still don't know how to assemble, and it's a bit annoying
18:23:12 <Taneb> Then Merlin Entertainments, then EDF Energy
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19:04:29 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
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19:05:36 <fizzie> The wheel in Helsinki is the Finnair Skywheel.
19:05:40 <fizzie> But it's a lot smaller.
19:05:59 <fizzie> Today's spam subject line: "As the complete system is written in optimized assembly language, the GUI is fast compared to modern systems."
19:06:27 <fizzie> The contents were unrelated, sadly.
19:06:37 <fizzie> "The revenue was to come from duties imposed on the cotton trade, as well as any other goods coming through the port. Justin and Treasure train them to fight the crystal hunters. Krishna District to Repalle."
19:07:05 <int-e> fungot: I think you're the right person? to answer this.
19:07:06 <fungot> int-e: let's go, why doncha!?
19:07:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:07:24 <fizzie> I knew that from "doncha".
19:07:26 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
19:07:32 <int-e> fungot: try again?
19:07:32 <fungot> int-e: the bad news, roy, is now, and he was in the army, too. and, as it is with my people, i would work as well without the rope, i am.
19:07:58 <fizzie> fungot's people are known for working as well without the rope.
19:07:58 <fungot> fizzie: you, uh, any reason... she's really angry. i don't. so if we trade, i get two things i would be as another sword arm this deadly but well-hidden booby trap, goblin friend and me totally gay?
19:08:06 <int-e> fungot: can you send spam?
19:08:06 <fungot> int-e: come to think, ears!
19:10:17 <int-e> fungot is irritating when it almost makes sense
19:10:17 <fungot> int-e: for that, my family would like my mode of transit returned, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, li
19:12:10 -!- loudspeaker has changed nick to mroman.
19:14:56 <TieSoul> so does fungot use Markov chains or what?
19:14:56 <fungot> TieSoul: wow, that is such a stupid magic item that can allow my power to fail me again. if arcane magic cannot break you, i've been trying. bozzok can't be far behind.
19:15:51 <TieSoul> because Markov chains would be near impossible to do in Funge :P
19:18:12 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
19:19:53 <TieSoul> that means Markov chains I think?
19:20:03 <TieSoul> either way that's really impressive
19:21:01 <int-e> <fizzie> fungot uses ngrams built from log data to generate babble; pretty close to a traditional markov chain thing. [...]
19:21:01 <fungot> int-e: was that supposed to get that " video games, but ruling the world that worship them:
19:23:28 <TieSoul> so I've been thinking, Funge was made to be hard to compile but relatively easy to interpret. Would it be possible to create a language that is hard to interpret but easy to compile?
19:23:29 <int-e> (I guess the quote predates fungot learning to babble in style.)
19:23:29 <fungot> int-e: my was a first edition. with your magic! save us that you couldn't leave well enough alone and kill you, so that the dwarf, " stabby"
19:24:25 <int-e> TieSoul: arguably ... http://esolangs.org/wiki/German ... for a fixed target architecture.
19:24:47 <TieSoul> "my was a first edition." how is fungot always so on-topic?
19:24:48 <fungot> TieSoul: down too, only two more levels. dorukan wanted the bottom, that's coming aboard a ship made of hobgoblin corpses across that particular joke has any advice you could give you the power, as duly noted. i've been up on the mountain
19:26:05 <TieSoul> that's not really a programming language though...
19:26:10 <TieSoul> you could make any binary file with it
19:26:11 <int-e> TieSoul: it's a miracle. as far as I recall, fizzie said that fungot does not take context into account. so it's all your mind making connections. just like horoscopes.
19:26:11 <fungot> int-e: your ass is bigger than the barn! v, i just need to keep, and it was wrong and also dangerous and we'll still have that safe room is right through here and now that your elven friend is comfortably trancing across that particular joke has to be some way to amuse yourself.
19:26:33 <int-e> fungot: I resent that.
19:26:34 <fungot> int-e: to the room of a dwarven assassin who happens. the time, and there, that ought to be good.
19:27:17 <TieSoul> wonder what size ngrams fungot uses?
19:27:17 <fungot> TieSoul: i am the leader and strategic plan in the morning" to you, and the success of the way that i, myself, can hear? look at the shiny light some more?
19:27:49 <TieSoul> I have a Markov bot that uses trigrams, but fungot seems vaguely more coherent than it.
19:27:49 <fungot> TieSoul: down too, only two more levels and are that much closer and ambush, did we?
19:29:28 <TieSoul> might be just because my bot uses the logs from a not-so-coherent IRC channel to construct its trigrams though.
19:30:04 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
19:30:09 <int-e> fungot: be coherent
19:30:09 <fungot> int-e: yeah every 1 fuckin changes either for the second greatest one?). since the aircraft has an amazingly high voice?
19:30:36 <int-e> (this is the second-worst style, in my opinion)
19:30:54 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
19:31:09 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
19:31:14 <fungot> int-e: thanx for ur support. i see. now confirm got next time :-d btw this world. a city built up in dis world only thing i forgot ......ya the blazer for u hold it like ceo's do ok ..i am also holding me inyour arms. i can't give you everything you want. remember all the furniture is yours also... sighz
19:31:26 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
19:31:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
19:31:41 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
19:31:43 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
19:31:46 <fungot> TieSoul: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue!
19:32:16 <TieSoul> fungot: what's the difference?
19:32:17 <fungot> TieSoul: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes, it's all right, it's been awhile prometheus!
19:32:47 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
19:33:05 <myname> interesting combination
19:33:08 <fungot> TieSoul: i don't see how that hurts in writing a while-loop, you'd have to
19:33:26 <TieSoul> fungot: how what hurts? I'd have to what?
19:33:26 <fungot> TieSoul: there is a python implementation. you can't do
19:33:26 <int-e> fungot: spare us the cliffhangers
19:33:27 <fungot> int-e: if it doesn't you need to reformulate what conditions you are trying to fnord you replace the in the second
19:34:05 <myname> "what conditions are you trying to fnord" :D
19:34:23 <J_Arcane> fungot: what is your opinion of parametric polymorphism
19:34:24 <fungot> J_Arcane: still havn't solved twenty :p the tortoise/ achilles might annoy you, i've seen
19:35:05 <int-e> TieSoul: well, trolling is appropriate for the style.
19:35:11 <TieSoul> fungot: what do you think about ray tracing?
19:35:12 <fungot> TieSoul: will someone who can " barely walk" can ' go out' with the dt nature of scheme which is probably much cleaner than c++. hah!
19:35:51 <TieSoul> okay, so you think it's better to write one in scheme than in C++?
19:36:11 <TieSoul> I wonder if there's any good image libraries for Scheme.
19:36:16 <int-e> I guess fungot learned that on #scheme
19:36:17 <fungot> int-e: and c++ is a continuum between the two than i think
19:36:35 <int-e> whereas that sounds more like #esoteric
19:37:29 <int-e> <ais523> C++ is a continuum of languages, from C to some sort of crazy OO template thing and everything in between
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19:44:53 <CrazyM4n> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/jj553512.aspx
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19:48:27 <fizzie> TieSoul: It's variable-length. https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
19:48:56 <J_Arcane> I think YouTube is censoring my recommendations.
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19:54:06 <fizzie> I could figure out some statistics about the model but that would probably involve getting out of bed and finding something with a keyboard.
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20:27:15 <Sgeo> How can I touch 3d if my hand is 2d??
20:27:35 <elliott> generally your hand is in fact three-dimensional
20:28:12 <Sgeo> (Tried an augmented reality thing which uses camera... of course, there's only one camera. So I could not move my hand to 'touch' the virtual objects. Looked like hand was always further away then the objects
20:29:47 <Sgeo> Also my Google Cardboard was distressingly close to some HDs earlier :( I hope nothing was wiped out. I heard HD cases are actually protective or something, or is that my imagination?
20:34:46 <fizzie> I don't think it's actually quite that easy to wipe disks with (non-serious) magnets.
20:34:59 <pikhq> Or even moderately serious ones.
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20:36:25 <Taneb> What if you hit the HD very hard with a magnet
20:36:32 <pikhq> The fixed magnet in the voice coil actuator is a neodymium magnet...
20:37:04 <Taneb> Also is it bad I call my laptop's big memory thing its hard drive when it's an SSD?
20:37:39 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, it's not *soft*.
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20:40:56 <fizzie> Calling it a "HDD" might be more questionable since there might be less of a disk.
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21:05:01 <Sgeo> It might be a neodymium magnet. Although I think that's the thing I'm missing
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21:15:50 <Sgeo> pikhq: is a neodymium magnet a 'semi-serious' magnet?
21:17:18 <pikhq> I suppose it's a matter of what you call "serious" really. I mean, they're strong but they aren't a high-power electromagnet or anything like that.
21:18:19 <pikhq> About as serious as you're getting *without* electromagnetism though.
21:18:32 <b_jonas> is a serious one like the helium-cooled superconductor magnet in particle accelerators? or do you count the mere liquid nitrogen cooled MRI machines?
21:18:50 <Sgeo> Serious enough to cause risk to an HD inside a computer, or serious enough to cause risk to an HD not inside a computer
21:19:34 <b_jonas> Sgeo: do you mean a hard disk that's assembled properly, or the platter of a dismembered hard disk?
21:19:42 <Sgeo> Assembled properly
21:19:52 <pikhq> An MRI machine's magnet is probably going to do quite a bit of *physical* damage to a hard drive. :)
21:20:14 <b_jonas> hard disks are surprisingly sturdy and resistant to all kinds of damages though
21:20:47 <b_jonas> as for MRI, their magnetic fields seem to be quite localized
21:21:11 <pikhq> High use of shielding.
21:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> <b_jonas> is a serious one like the helium-cooled superconductor magnet in particle accelerators? or do you count the mere liquid nitrogen cooled MRI machines?
21:21:32 <b_jonas> pikhq: no, I don't mean how it doesn't go outside the room
21:21:57 <b_jonas> I mean it stays very much in the cylinder, not much outside it
21:22:25 <pikhq> b_jonas: Yes, the outside of the cylinder has a lot of shielding as well. There's electronics out there. :)
21:22:45 <b_jonas> pikhq: there's no shielding on the side where my legs stick out of the machine
21:22:59 <b_jonas> and they let me keep my belt buckle on
21:23:32 * Sgeo meant data damage, not physical damage
21:23:51 <pikhq> That's just magnetism being an inverse square law I suspect.
21:24:05 <b_jonas> it seems too heavy to be aluminium
21:24:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm an idiot.
21:24:37 <pikhq> b_jonas: Sure it was an MRI?
21:25:57 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes. that's why there was such a long waiting queue. I also had CT scan but that's easier
21:27:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess since it's small, fairly well-anchored and outside the machine you can get away with it
21:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> but i mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg
21:28:20 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and it probably matters which part of the body they're scanning
21:28:34 <b_jonas> like, if they wanted further down maybe they would make me remove my belt
21:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't even safely take all non-magnetic metals into an mri because they can get heated inductively
21:29:50 <b_jonas> the scary part of it though is that they make me remove my glasses early, BEFORE they lead me to the place that has all the warning label stickers
21:30:36 <b_jonas> sure, I don't have metal parts in me, but still
21:32:37 <fizzie> The only serious magnets I've seen were at CERN.
21:32:53 <fizzie> Where "serious" is defined by the existence of warning stickers.
21:33:28 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think I'm just going to say "particles" as a pretty safe bet, since I don't recall exactly. This was more than ten years ago.
21:38:47 <fizzie> I think it maybe was part of ISOLDE, but that's just a guess.
21:39:07 <fizzie> Also I think technically we did see the CMS, but it was being built and not operational.
21:39:25 <fizzie> Or some part of it, anyway.
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21:45:47 <Taneb> Why do I keep thinking that David Bowie is dead
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22:00:28 * boily pokes Taneb in the parallel universe
22:01:03 -!- Lilax has joined.
22:02:56 <Taneb> Lilax, I got poked in a parallel universe
22:03:50 <Lilax> I'm getting poked in an infinite ammount of universes that have a parrallel me
22:03:57 <Lilax> So you aren't alone
22:04:32 <Taneb> Specifically, a parallel universe where David Bowie is not alive
22:08:09 <Taneb> And I was poked by the boily of this universew
22:13:42 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
22:20:30 <Taneb> He said so himself
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22:30:15 -!- Lilax has changed nick to Zefphex.
22:31:03 <boily> Zefphex: I haven't asked you the The Question yet, did I?
22:32:12 <boily> what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
22:33:54 <elliott> didn't you give up on answering that :p
22:33:57 <boily> it's the The Question. the answers go in the File.
22:34:32 <boily> elliott: somewhat. it's like full feature movies made long after the main series have ended.
22:34:40 <Zefphex> Idk if I can answer that m'lady
22:35:16 * boily strokes his luxurious beard. “hmm... no. ain't no m'lady. perhaps next week!”
22:35:39 <Zefphex> Geographic location: Earth , on a hill somewhere Body weight: Average teenage boy weight of a depressed under fed kid
22:36:20 <boily> that'll do, that'll do...
22:37:02 <Zefphex> You can ask someone else who I am boily
22:37:23 <boily> to measure this channel's centre of mass.
22:37:49 <Taneb> boily, could you PM me the coord you have for me?
22:39:55 <Zefphex> Just average all weight down to the ages
22:40:23 <Zefphex> per each different age 11-90 estimate the age and weight of each user
22:40:40 <Zefphex> imagine them in one place of 300 ft
22:40:54 <Zefphex> And calc how much everyone is
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22:44:45 <elliott> where did this topic come from...
22:44:53 <elliott> uh. the literal /topic. not the topic of conversation.
22:45:31 <b_jonas> elliott: there was something in the chat about "cinnamon" but I've no idea what it referred to
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22:52:18 <Zefphex> there I have said a topic so I shall change it to exactly that
22:52:28 <Zefphex> as that's how it apparently works here
22:52:31 <Sgeo_> Have you ever heard cinnamon stumble over its words?
22:52:42 -!- Zefphex has set topic: Cake water | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:53:04 <Zefphex> But why an under score near your name?
22:53:14 <shachaf> why do you keep changing your nick?
22:54:25 <Sgeo_> My client's nickname thing doesn't show an _
22:54:32 * Sgeo_ decides that Quassel is defective
22:54:57 -!- h0rsep0wer has joined.
22:55:10 <Sgeo_> But presumably some disconnection issue where I stayed logged in and tried to log in again
22:56:12 <Zefphex> Do you have that strong of a dislike for nick changing you have to bring it up?
22:57:15 <Zefphex> Couldn't you mildly Express you discontent over a period of time
22:57:32 <Zefphex> That seems easier and less intrusive of a persons being
22:57:41 <Taneb> I was listening to the radio, and they played a David Bowie song, and I posted here and on Tumblr that I am endlessly surprised that he is still alive, and then a while later they started talking about how amazing it is that Bowie has survived so long
22:58:04 <Zefphex> That he steals from poking people
22:58:23 <shachaf> Zefphex: What's the point of what you're saying right now? What's the point of anything you say? What are you even doing here? I don't get it.
22:58:59 <Zefphex> What's the point of you talking to me if you don't get the point of me doing stuff
22:59:15 <Zefphex> Wouldn't the point be to ignore someone you have no point of talking to?
22:59:15 <boily> Zefphex: I am not David Bowie. I am not elliott. and I do not cosplay Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
22:59:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
22:59:42 -!- elliott has kicked shachaf shachaf.
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23:00:11 <Zefphex> Also I'm playing skyward sword whilst making a data structure
23:02:43 <Taneb> boily, if you're not elliott, and I'm not elliott... then WHO IS ELLIOTT?
23:11:10 <zzo38> Do you like a IRC bot program that is using C and SQLite?
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23:43:17 <boily> zzo38: does it have any interesting features?
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23:58:08 <zzo38> boily: I don't actually know of any exist yet by this time, although I may be able to write one.
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00:10:55 <boily> going pretty smooth. laundry, soup, freshly ground coffee, grocery, minecraft, unpronounceable vietnamese food, and a gin and tonic.
00:11:01 <boily> how's life on your end?
00:12:18 <quintopia> ended the evening with tapas, sangria, and sweet delicious latte
00:12:55 <Taneb> quintopia, how did you end up in a spanner?
00:13:14 <boily> ¡oh! ¿en qué lugar estás?
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00:13:33 <quintopia> by being unable to type an enyay on this keyboard taneb
00:13:37 -!- Tritonio has joined.
00:14:06 <quintopia> tomorrow a tour of sagrada familia before boarding a cruise
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00:14:33 <boily> quintopia: so you're in the North. how's the weather there? is it cold?
00:14:53 * boily misses having a café con leche in the morning...
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00:18:09 <Taneb> I've never been to mainland Spain
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00:18:41 <boily> back in August when we were in Andalusia the Atlantic Ocean was warmer than the Mediterranean, so probably the Canaries will be not as cold. maybe.
00:18:54 <boily> Taneb: you should. it's quite nice!
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00:23:04 <Taneb> boily, I'll be going on my first holiday without parents this summer, hopefully, but that's to Italy
00:26:37 <Taneb> I'm trying to learn the language as well as I can, but I am not doing much better than "Il uomo mangia un pollo"
00:26:45 <Taneb> And that's wrong, anyway
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00:27:59 * Taneb is not very good at languages
00:28:09 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
00:28:18 * boily points to the Man Eating Chicken part ↑
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00:29:32 <boily> you don't have to be good at languages. please, thank you, and how to eat chicken are the most important parts.
00:33:11 <Taneb> I... did not mean to say "Man eating chicken". I was going for egg, but L'uomo mangia l'uovo sounds silly
00:35:35 <Taneb> So I went for the first foodstuff I could think of
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00:53:00 <quintopia> italy is good. i took my first nonparental tour there as well
00:58:36 <Taneb> quintopia, whence are you native?
00:58:46 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
00:59:37 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator.
01:00:40 <Taneb> East Timor and Dominican Republic?
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01:06:10 <boily> Taneb: quintopia is very mysterious.
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01:43:16 <zzo38> I wrote a few ideas about RULECARD but I didn't write much yet: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/rulecard/draft_version.txt
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01:45:37 <zzo38> Do you have any comment of it so far?
01:46:27 <boily> I should be having comments as soon as the page loads...
01:46:44 * boily is slowly burning his router away with a few torrents
01:50:14 <boily> this sounds interesting. do you have example programs?
01:50:34 <zzo38> No, the specification isn't even complete yet; it lacks a lot of stuff
01:51:08 <zzo38> Does what I have looks like OK or are there some things wrong?
01:51:51 <boily> no, everything seems pretty straightforward. except the unusual "@ ".
01:53:10 <zzo38> WEB uses the same "@ " although possibly an alias could be provided if that is too confusing
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03:33:03 <zzo38> I fixed the puzzle.3 now it is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.3
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03:47:24 <oerjan> brainfuck spam, now there's a thing
03:47:40 <oerjan> also, a first, i suspect
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03:49:05 <oerjan> hm requires login, i think it goes back on my queue...
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04:43:04 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> but i mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg <-- that video had surprisingly interesting comments...
04:43:43 <oerjan> or maybe the subject makes that non-surprising
04:44:31 <oerjan> like, i learned about nonmagnetic steel
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05:23:45 <HackEgo> Zefphex: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:06 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:14 <oerjan> well you're newly noticed
05:24:45 <Zefphex> Or as it were the nick is assoiciated with lilax irc wise
05:25:03 <oerjan> i can see now i've done a whois
05:25:53 <oerjan> well if i had suspected you were Lilax i would have done so already
05:26:24 <oerjan> or if i suspected you were one of the banned spammers
05:26:24 <Zefphex> You being a cake and all I must forgive you
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05:26:54 <Zefphex> Also how could I be new I set the topic like 4 hours ago
05:27:08 <oerjan> oh i didn't notice who had changed it
05:27:21 <oerjan> and i'm not through the logreading yet
05:27:56 <Zefphex> How many books do you read a day oerjan?
05:28:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: Crêpes Suzette | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:28:46 <oerjan> Zefphex: about 0 these days, i have trouble reading longer stuff
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05:33:54 <int-e> oerjan: you're too late
05:34:13 <int-e> 06:30:13 --- lambdabot has joined #haskell
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05:34:55 <oerjan> int-e: well i assumed since i didn't notice it _leave_, that it was a more longterm problem
05:35:04 <Zefphex> What are Crêpes suzette's?
05:35:07 <int-e> oerjan: it was a netsplit
05:35:29 <oerjan> Zefphex: french pancakes which are soaked in alcohol and set on fire
05:35:36 <int-e> oerjan: so nothing unusual, but lambdabot should've restarted anyway. it failed.
05:35:39 <Zefphex> That's what I was talking about earlier
05:35:49 <oerjan> i thought we should progress from cake water to cake fire
05:36:24 <oerjan> i don't think french cuisine is considered fusion
05:36:41 <Zefphex> Can you speak France oerjan
05:36:43 <oerjan> but if we add just a little mango...
05:36:54 <oerjan> Zefphex: not very much
05:37:05 <Zefphex> I wish to go to French one day
05:37:29 <Zefphex> French looks like the most made up word ever, I swear
05:38:00 <oerjan> crêpes suzette with mango and chili, now that's going to be thermonuclear
05:38:37 <int-e> now why did I get a privmsg from some bot right after saying something here, but from an IP unrelated to the users here. *sigh*
05:38:38 <oerjan> i'd link the minion song but i did so not long ago
05:38:45 <Zefphex> Haunted French pancakes give me the crêpes
05:39:16 <Zefphex> int-e: what did the msg say
05:39:29 <int-e> something about an mirc script
05:40:05 <Zefphex> Someone was just talking to me about mirc script
05:40:47 <oerjan> int-e: well i didn't get a privmsg, so it's not something targeting everyone who speaks
05:41:10 <int-e> maybe the timing was a coincidence.
05:42:07 <oerjan> everyone knows it's spelled lambada hth
05:42:33 <int-e> oerjan: I prefer lambda dance
05:43:56 <int-e> oh no... I had to google... why am I doing this? http://lambdadance.spacebar.org/
05:44:57 <int-e> (at least it's not a cat picture)
05:45:15 <Zefphex> Google calls to your soul int-e
05:45:23 <oerjan> what do you have against the lambdacats
05:46:09 <int-e> oerjan: I guess lambdacats are ok. I mean the 2 funny ones are.
05:46:44 <int-e> (The number is an estimate. I went through them a while ago and most of them just made me groan.)
05:47:15 <oerjan> what do you mean there is a difference
05:47:52 <int-e> funny things are supposed to make one smirk or laugh
05:49:01 <oerjan> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
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05:50:44 <fungot> int-e: but that's not true. no more than four arrow operators is automatically cursed. they will be
05:52:09 <oerjan> fungot: so once you get beyond first, second, *** and &&& you should be safe?
05:52:10 <fungot> oerjan: i prefer the ' normal form' isn't all that good
05:52:32 <oerjan> fungot: i'm not sure arrows have an agreed upon normal form
05:52:32 <fungot> oerjan: what language is this in? ( rather easy with postfix. i don't think
05:53:56 <int-e> hmm, relational databases and arrows
05:54:23 <int-e> I wonder whether these two concepts mix well.
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05:57:48 <oerjan> as usual, the arr function will ruin everything hth
05:58:58 <int-e> though &&& is also a bit inconvenient.
05:59:56 <int-e> (it's telling that its dual ||| is in a separate type class)
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06:02:57 <int-e> (Neither &&& nor ||| work for bijections, that's a something I once wanted to use arrows for.)
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06:06:02 <Jafet> :t Data.Isomorphism.embed
06:06:04 <lambdabot> Data.Isomorphism.Iso k a b -> k a b
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06:21:47 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> it's the The Question. the answers go in the File. <-- wait isn't it the The File?
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06:39:51 <Zefphex> you sure do like to ask people stuff
06:40:54 <oerjan> how else can we get the important information
06:42:00 <Zefphex> Remembering it and asking tommorow
06:43:26 <Zefphex> Oh man you have no idea what I go through with memory issues
06:43:51 <Zefphex> .0001% of my memory is all I can access
06:44:04 <Zefphex> estimations are very exact
06:45:16 <Zefphex> I dislike children of my generation
06:45:26 <Zefphex> So you don't want to pass on a legacy
06:45:29 <quintopia> did anyone else get email about brainfuck golf?
06:45:47 <Zefphex> //doesn't even email anymore
06:46:00 <Zefphex> 10 minute mail is my friend
06:46:22 <oerjan> then i looked at the page, saw that i needed to login, then closed.
06:47:06 <Zefphex> Oh man I don't even know what a good job would be
06:47:14 <oerjan> well the story is plausible enough, seeing the corresponding anagol rankings...
06:47:35 <oerjan> i think both the example programs suggested are in fungot :P
06:47:35 <fungot> oerjan: but they *are* 128 bits. formicidae ignores them, but at other parties people dance just to look at
06:47:49 <oerjan> ^8ball has it as a subroutine
06:48:11 <Zefphex> oh my cod its an 8ball cmd
06:48:29 <fungot> quintopia: hmm... if it uses shared memory it will be " good"
06:48:32 <oerjan> Zefphex: it's not very 8bally, really. only answers Yes or No.
06:49:24 <quintopia> i mean maybe those commands are. i wojldnt know.
06:49:36 <Zefphex> ^8ball should I delete my hack of pokemon silver
06:50:14 <Zefphex> are the yes's and no's on routine intervals
06:50:24 <Zefphex> like yes then no then yes again
06:50:34 <fungot> Zefphex: calling add-hook with it's optional append argument set to true or false with the corresponding item.
06:50:49 <oerjan> quintopia: fungot has brainfuck and underload as its command definition languages
06:50:49 <fungot> oerjan: i have a fnord compiler in sed :p. but the small ones to take to peru
06:51:20 <fungot> ,[[->+<],]>2+2<[->-[>+>2]>[+[-<+>]>+>2]<5]>4+<2[>2-+11[>+8>+4<2-]>+.+12.+14.>+2.<4-]>2[+10[>+7>+4<2-]>+.+33.>+2.<2]
06:51:37 <oerjan> Zefphex: the Yes and No are entirely functions of the input you give, because that's all a brainfuck-defined command can do...
06:52:22 <oerjan> and thus written in befunge
06:52:58 <oerjan> befunge isn't allowed for defining commands in, presumably because it would be (1) hard to give 2d programs (2) hard to sandbox from the rest
06:53:14 <fungot> quintopia: i borked it :(. i hate lambda since i had to restart.
06:53:19 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
06:55:00 <quintopia> ah is not a reasonable error message
06:55:39 <Zefphex> Time limit for question exceedes It is indeed a syntax
06:56:12 <oerjan> `8ball Should I tell Zefphex about HackEgo's `8ball command?
06:56:43 <Zefphex> `8ball Should I delete the s67 port
06:57:46 <myname> ^8ball does Zefphex farts rainbows?
06:57:55 <myname> Zefphex: at least you are not a liar
07:00:47 <Zefphex> If I ever wanted to change my prefix to ^ I can just [@]changeprefix[@]stateadmin=[^] %devnull for absolutely no reason
07:01:24 <Zefphex> I've had steak a couple times
07:01:45 <oerjan> me too! slightly underestimated.
07:01:50 <Zefphex> Why do you have caps on oerjan
07:02:06 <oerjan> they're ironic caps hth
07:02:48 <oerjan> some things you just have to get used to.
07:03:21 <oerjan> EX-TER-MIN-ATE see how nice caps are?
07:03:39 <oerjan> not much of a dalek then.
07:06:44 <Zefphex> Do any of the bots have safety locks that disallow users to use it while its doing something like an update
07:07:10 <Zefphex> I do that sometimes cuz updates are hard to handle if everyone is using it
07:07:24 <Zefphex> Oh man this chicken tastes like candy
07:10:23 <Zefphex> I've lied to myself I'm not even eating
07:11:23 <oerjan> HackEgo has transactions, i think that's more advanced
07:12:30 <oerjan> lambdabot has at least one race condition that keeps popping up
07:12:50 <Zefphex> that's kinda what the %devnull is that I put on the end of my cmd strings, Its not even proccessed by the engine that proccess the cmd its an invisible variable
07:12:55 <oerjan> but i think mostly they just quit for large updates
07:13:44 <oerjan> fungot isn't multithreaded at all, i think
07:13:44 <fungot> oerjan: cf the original paper was ' lambda: the ultimate opcode') cpstk')) a)
07:14:05 <oerjan> so the commands always run in sequence.
07:15:15 <Zefphex> like eg; [@]stuffhere[@]state(userstatus)=admin so [@]stateadmin then what you want it to do in the dev terminal [@]change=[objecthere] then %devnull turns the bot off for all users while it does that
07:15:27 <Zefphex> its really fucking retarded
07:16:41 <Zefphex> I need to stop swearing so excuse me if I do.
07:29:13 <Zefphex> gonna go watch downtown abbey
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07:31:44 <Zefphex> isomorphic data structures
07:45:56 <zzo38> What would you think of other variants of chess rating systems? There is Elo and Glicko and so on, but then what if you use Elo with inflation, or whatever? As it turns out Glicko also involves time?
07:46:23 <zzo38> Wizards of the Coast now uses "Planeswalker Points", which in my opinion is stupid, you can earn points even if you lose.
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08:56:41 <J_Arcane_> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8941621
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10:42:40 <Jafet> `` date -u '27 Dec 2078'
10:42:52 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `27 Dec 2078'
10:44:26 <Jafet> `` date +%s -d '27 Dec 2078'
10:45:12 <Jafet> `` $(($(date +%s -d '27 Dec 2078') + 70 * 365 * 86400))
10:45:13 <HackEgo> bash: 5646844800: command not found
10:45:18 <Jafet> `` echo $(($(date +%s -d '27 Dec 2078') + 70 * 365 * 86400))
10:46:23 <Jafet> Why do I have a file with this timestamp
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11:33:53 <fizzie> Jafet: Time travellers hth
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11:47:36 <Jafet> I don't thought that will have becoming a plausible explanation.
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12:20:14 <adu> who's a time traveller?
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12:37:00 <mroman_> although I'm travelling forwards in time
12:37:06 <mroman_> So technically I'm from the past
12:46:13 <quintopia> so the key to being a time traveler is using weird tenses?
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12:57:43 <zzo38> Truth-machine SQL program: with x(y) as (select $input union all select y from x where y) select y from x;
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13:01:20 <b_jonas> fungot, what's your opinion on smartbot3's ascension?
13:01:20 <fungot> b_jonas: well i got summer holidays now so :) i'm writing a funge-98 interpreter?
13:01:35 <b_jonas> fungot, is that your idea of a good time?
13:01:36 <fungot> b_jonas: gambit scheme runs on windows, the way this list will only ever rape me
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13:05:40 <Jafet> zzo38: postgres seems to require WITH RECURSIVE there.
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13:07:05 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes it is supposed to require RECURSIVE, but some implementations (including SQLite) don't require it.
13:07:53 <Jafet> b_jonas: now write the entire bot in the rcfile http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/qw.rc
13:07:55 <zzo38> SQLite allows but ignores the keyword RECURSIVE after WITH. (I am using SQLite so I didn't include it)
13:10:52 <mroman_> and apparentely time travelling causes headaches
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13:23:54 <Vorpal> A weird question: Anyone know anything about open source document databases with good full text searching and reasonable performance for large sets of (English) text data? I place higher importance on the quality of the search than the time.
13:26:54 <zzo38> SQLite includes an extension for full text search; other than that I don't know if it is what you would be looking for or what else is available or whatever.
13:27:46 <Vorpal> I tried with full text search in postgresql, it was rather slow, but more importantly had a really limited syntax.
13:28:14 <Vorpal> I have not tried with sqlite, but I'm not sure that it will be suitable given the size of the data set (several hundred megabytes)
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13:31:08 <Vorpal> This is for personal use. (Denial of service attacks are not an issue in other words.)
13:31:21 <zzo38> I'm not sure it would work so well either.
13:32:40 <zzo38> But I do know that if you are accessing it only from one computer and one process at a time, SQLite works well for such things. I don't know how the speed would compare, but I do know that SQLite is certainly capable of dealing with data of that size, although SQLite tends to work best for relatively small data.
13:32:51 <elliott> Vorpal: lucene/solr/elasticsearch/whatever?
13:33:42 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress has segfaulted on me 3 times today
13:33:53 <Vorpal> elliott, thanks, I will look into those.
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13:34:04 <elliott> (lucene/solr/elasticsearch all being one recommendation)
13:34:15 <elliott> well, elasticsearch is based on lucene.
13:34:21 <zzo38> I have heard of Sphinx but not the others
13:34:21 <elliott> and I forget what the difference between lucene and solr even is.
13:34:33 <elliott> it's the same project anyway
13:34:38 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 7h 12m 50s ago: <boily> it's the The Question. the answers go in the File. <-- wait isn't it the The File?
13:34:42 <Taneb> boily, I don't really know why, it's just annoying
13:34:50 <Vorpal> elliott, both appears to have astronomically inspired names
13:35:28 <boily> @tell oerjan it should tdh
13:36:02 <Vorpal> Thanks elliott, I will read up on these :)
13:37:15 <elliott> Vorpal: of course those are more the search side of things though I think at least some of them have full server things to store documents in
13:37:30 <elliott> but they're not like, fully blown mongodb document databases I guess
13:38:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I would really like to access it directly with a query language (which was the reason I tried with PostgreSQL first), rather than just have a more or less annoying API I have to call from another language.
13:38:53 <Vorpal> But as long as it is reasonably simple to write such a query frontend for it, whatever
13:40:36 <elliott> I mean, these things are used for fulltext search by websites and stuff, so they can probably do that kind of thing.
13:41:15 <Vorpal> Indeed, and I think xapian is used for something with apt on ubuntu and/or debian?
13:43:09 <Vorpal> Hm yeah I will need to read up in detail on these to figure out which (if any) fits my needs.
13:45:17 <elliott> (clarification: by elssticsearch being based on lucene, I mean based on top of, not that it is a fork.)
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13:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure where solr comes into it yet though
13:48:16 <fizzie> I've had a todo list item of doing the PostgreSQL full-text search for my PostgreSQL IRC logs for a while, but never seem to manage actually do it.
13:49:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, with 8.3 it is super-simple at least, though it is apparently more complicated in older versions
13:49:37 <fizzie> It was tricky when I was doing it for Darkhive.
13:50:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just had to create an index like CREATE INDEX foo on bar (to_tsvector('english', full_text));
13:50:12 <fizzie> That was around the time when they were making the then-extension part of PostgreSQL proper, or something like that.
13:50:23 <Vorpal> No extension needed even
13:50:30 <fizzie> Yes, I know it's simpler now.
13:51:10 <Vorpal> Then queries are like: SELECT * from bar WHERE to_tsvector('english', full_text) @@ to_tsquery('hello & there')
13:51:20 <Vorpal> And there is some more stuff you can do in the tsquery
13:51:43 <Vorpal> I did have some issues getting it to reliably use the index when the query was complicated though
13:51:52 <Vorpal> Not sure what fixed it in the end
13:51:55 <fizzie> I think optimally I'd like to have Google Code Search on my logs, but I don't think they've open-sourced that.
13:52:16 <elliott> fizzie: well, they open-sourced the engine.
13:52:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, also google search isn't really good for all of that stuff
13:52:28 <lambdabot> Title: re2 - an efficient, principled regular expression library - Google Project Ho...
13:52:42 <fizzie> Yes, the underlying regex engine.
13:52:53 <elliott> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp4.html
13:53:10 <fizzie> But I think code search involved other things that aren't really part of RE2.
13:53:35 <elliott> right. that article goes into at least some of them
13:53:47 <elliott> it's just good old n-grams, surely you have some code lying around for that.
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13:54:51 <fizzie> I've read the series, but it'd involve actual work, and who has time for that?
13:55:24 <zzo38> In case you need to know now, I did find information about speed of SQLite's full text search. Using it to search the Enron data for "Linux" takes 0.03 seconds, versus 22.5 seconds when not using the full text search.
13:56:12 <fizzie> They still have the code search online for stuff hosted on code.google.com, I think.
13:56:22 <fizzie> At least the Chromium repository is code-searchable.
13:56:37 <fizzie> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch
13:56:48 <fizzie> I've been assuming that's for everything there.
13:56:50 <zzo38> So you see, SQLite will certainly do it.
13:57:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, it is of course an improvement, but I'm not certain it will be that good for my use case.
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13:59:40 <zzo38> Perhaps, but what exactly are you trying to do anyways?
13:59:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, this doesn't do word stemming (I think the term is?) though does it?
14:00:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in, treat stuff like "casual" and "casually" the same
14:00:14 <Vorpal> That is a feature I really want
14:00:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, no, it's a *code* search. I think it'd fit my IRC log search types better.
14:00:59 <fizzie> Although admittedly the code-understanding parts aren't exactly useful.
14:01:09 <Vorpal> zzo38, search a large corpus of long form English text.
14:01:10 <fizzie> (It knows about declarations and definitions and that sort of stuff.)
14:01:31 <Vorpal> (long form as in "several pages" rather than "a line of IRC log")
14:02:52 <fizzie> I did something with Lucene, but I forget what, and this was again a decade ago, so it's probably not at all relevant to the Lucene of now.
14:02:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the search engine in something like sublime? Somehow it is lightning fast even with complicated regexes with backtracking for the code at work at least. And that code checkout is over 1 GB of C/C++
14:03:45 <fizzie> I don't know anything about that. But it's a commercial product too, right?
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14:03:57 <Vorpal> Well, sublime is nagware
14:04:17 <fizzie> I have't really looked into it, it's quite possible someone's actually built something more turn-key on top of, say, RE2.
14:04:25 <Vorpal> With complicated regex, I mean using generalized zero width assertions and so on as well, which apparently is tricky to handle
14:04:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, possibly it does something smart to filter down what parts to use full on PCRE on then?
14:05:29 <Vorpal> Because it isn't slow even with back references and so on. (Though I haven't tried the pathological cases)
14:06:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is also ag/silversearch iirc
14:06:20 <Vorpal> which is an open source command line tool
14:06:22 <boily> what is a zero width assertion?
14:06:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure it does "something smart", possibly the kind of things talked about in the link elliott provided.
14:07:15 <Vorpal> boily, Simple examples are stuff like ^ or $, but PCRE at least support generalized "(not) preceded/followed by general regex"
14:07:34 <fizzie> The Chromium code search is pretty fast, too, and I think that's quite a pile of code.
14:07:37 <Vorpal> boily, asserting there is a word boundary with \w would also be a zero width assertion
14:07:51 <zzo38> Well, I think SQLite full text search does it. It doesn't do regexes though, but it can do stemming.
14:07:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, talked too much, haven't read it all
14:07:57 <fizzie> Not to mention the Google-internal stuff, because I'm likely legally barred from mentioning them.
14:08:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway ag is fast and afaik doesn't build an index in advance, not quite as fast as sublime though
14:08:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah, you work at google now
14:10:11 <fizzie> Yes, and I think it's uncontroversial to say they have a lot of source code.
14:10:45 <fizzie> A checkout of the open-source Android tree is 50 GB, according to the public site.
14:10:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you work on there btw? Anything you can tell at all? Like which product you work on
14:11:53 <fizzie> It's the Android "Google" app, I think I'm allowed to say that much.
14:12:24 <zzo38> Google's HTTP server is defective; sometimes HEAD requests return a 404 error even though GET works, and headerless requests will still emit a header in the response.
14:12:32 <Vorpal> Ah, the thing I disable the first thing I do on new android devices
14:12:44 <Vorpal> And all that "google now" crap
14:12:46 <zzo38> You should fix them if you work for Google by now?
14:13:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, he works on a different part as stated above
14:13:29 <zzo38> Then tell the people that work on that part.
14:13:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, so now, from the inside: Is google evil these days?
14:14:26 <zzo38> I can tell even from the outside, they are partially evil these days.
14:14:46 <elliott> it would be pretty great if fizzie fixed google's http server because of zzo
14:15:25 <zzo38> fizzie: If you don't work on Google's HTTP server, then can you please tell the people that do work on such thing.
14:15:35 <fizzie> I *could* file a bug on it, technically.
14:15:46 <fizzie> It's possible their view on what's "broken" might differ from yours, though.
14:16:15 <fizzie> Do you have an URL that consistently returns a 404 on HEAD but 200 on GET?
14:16:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I think that would be clearly specified by the relevant RFC for HTTP
14:16:44 <Vorpal> Also who the hell uses HEAD requests except for debugging?
14:16:49 <zzo38> I don't have it now, but I have found it before; I think it was a download from Google Code.
14:17:22 <zzo38> I wanted to figure out the exact file size before downloading.
14:20:09 <Jafet> Maybe fungot knows.
14:20:10 <fungot> Jafet: buy an artificial nail, maybe a few other servers, including lighttpd itself, another address, inside of a language to write a
14:22:54 <Jafet> For want of an artificial nail
14:23:20 <fizzie> zzo38: You seem to be right about that.
14:23:27 <Vorpal> Btw, after reading about codesearch, what *did* happen to the language Go?
14:23:39 <Vorpal> Is it still actively used? Outside google?
14:24:01 <elliott> it's... pretty hugely popular
14:24:12 <elliott> it's used on the backend for a lot of major things
14:24:23 <fizzie> I think it's kind of dropped off the peak of hype, though.
14:24:43 <elliott> you may have heard of docker, that's written in go
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14:26:38 <elliott> fizzie: I dunno, I feel like it's trendy again
14:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, interesting
14:27:24 <elliott> I feel like Go is eating up a lot of the node.js mindshare as people realise how awful javascript is or something
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14:28:26 <ais523> hmm, does JS or PHP have a larger success/quality ratio?
14:29:22 <zzo38> I think JavaScript is a better quality programming language than PHP mostly.
14:29:53 <ais523> you can sort-of see how the low quality happened in both cases, JS was invented on a crazily tight deadline, whereas PHP wasn't intended to get as big as it id
14:30:03 <ais523> zzo38: JavaScript's probably also more successful though
14:31:46 <Jafet> (What unit is success/quality ratio measured in?)
14:32:27 <Vorpal> ais523, well, obviously, if you want to script in the browser (client side), it is basically js or plugins that are the options
14:32:47 <ais523> JS has made inroads into the server
14:32:53 <Vorpal> And plugins are dying out, slowly. Doesn't work on most mobile devices and so on
14:32:53 <ais523> luckily, client-side PHP is still basically unused
14:33:04 <zzo38> I was talking just about the programming languages in general and not specifically for webpages or any other specific use.
14:33:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I was just saying that nowdays, for scripting in a web browser, js is your *only* option. Which means it will obviously be successful.
14:33:35 <zzo38> Both JavaScript and PHP are usable for command-line programs too.
14:33:39 <ais523> Vorpal: put it this way: a statement that it /didn't/ exist would almost certainly be proved incorrect
14:34:15 <Jafet> I don't think I've ever heard of a web client that ran php
14:34:22 <ais523> especially considering that we're in #esoteric
14:35:29 <Jafet> Non-webserver PHP existed, though (I think a full win32 API binding even existed for it)
14:35:38 <ais523> hmm, I'm finding it hard not to interpret that as "brb, writing a method of running PHP client-side on the web"
14:35:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Client-side PHP in action: https://github.com/K-S-V/Scripts/wiki
14:35:51 <zzo38> Yes, there is a full win32 API binding for PHP.
14:36:01 <zzo38> There is also GTK for PHP, and many other stuff too.
14:36:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's used by the unofficial command-line downloader for YLE's (think "Finnish BBC") watch-TV-on-the-web site.
14:36:57 <fizzie> (They're using the Adobe HDS thing, and I guess nobody's bothered to reimplement that PHP script in anything more sane.)
14:36:57 <ais523> hmm, it's weird to think of other countries having a BBC equivalent
14:37:01 <Jafet> Ah, a web client itself written in PHP
14:37:03 <ais523> because the BBC is in such a weird place
14:37:17 <ais523> although, little-known fact: the BBC doesn't get all the license fee funding, all TV channels get it to some amount
14:37:30 <ais523> normally to persuade them to run news programs
14:37:56 <fizzie> ais523: The TV license fee stuff is quite strange. AIUI, you have to pay it if you watch anything describable as "live TV", even if it's just some random live webstream from some non-UK place.
14:37:58 <ais523> some channels like channel 4 put a lot of effort into their news, and I think it's because they get compensated for much of the money they spend on it via the license fee
14:38:25 <ais523> fizzie: it's something like that, I'm not 100% sure on the exact rules
14:38:40 <ais523> I know that streaming the broadcast channels via the Internet without a license is against the rules
14:38:52 <ais523> but watching a replay of a program that aired half an hour ago is completely fine
14:39:31 <Jafet> It's understandably overreaching, because it's designed to prevent people from weaselling out of the fee
14:39:46 <fizzie> ais523: For some reason, the +1 and +2 channels are still "live TV", though.
14:40:02 <fizzie> "Do I need a TV Licence to watch +1 or +2 channels?"
14:40:04 <fizzie> "Yes you do, as you’re still watching live TV.
14:40:04 <fizzie> ‘Live TV’ means any programme you watch or record at the same time as it’s being shown on TV or an online TV service.
14:40:06 <zzo38> I think it also depend if it is color picture or not?
14:40:07 <fizzie> If you only ever watch ‘on demand’ programmes, you don’t need a TV Licence. On demand includes catch-up TV, streaming or downloading programmes after they’ve been shown on live TV, or programmes available online before being shown on TV."
14:40:16 <fizzie> zzo38: There's different prices for color and B&W, yes.
14:41:30 <fizzie> "Do I need a TV Licence to watch live TV programmes from outside the UK or Channel Islands?" "Yes, you need a TV Licence if you watch or record live TV online, no matter where it is distributed from. This includes online streamed programmes from outside the UK and Channel Islands."
14:41:35 <ais523> what's really complicated is what happens wrt TV licenses for families
14:41:59 <ais523> because you only need the household licensed, typically, and that covers the TVs/computers in the house
14:42:01 <zzo38> I have once suggested that you could use encryption; the Y component is encrypted with one key, and U and V with another key; these keys are distributed ahead of time to subscribers and are made public several days later.
14:42:08 <ais523> but then when someone takes a portable TV out of the house, it gets quite complex
14:42:22 <fizzie> ais523: Also I think our rent agreement stipulates we pay the TV license fee, no matter what.
14:42:27 <ais523> it used to be that it depended on whether it was black or white or not
14:42:38 <ais523> zzo38: satellite TV used to use encryption, and probably still does
14:42:49 <ais523> there was a bit of a row because Sky were encrypting the BBC signal and the BBC asked them not to
14:43:12 <zzo38> But does it use a separate key for the Y signal as the U and V signal?
14:43:38 <zzo38> I also heard there is apparently no fee for audio, so that shouldn't be encrypted.
14:43:53 <ais523> also, I doubt that there's anyone who's likely to pay for specific channels in black and white only
14:47:12 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know, and I don't know if it's going to be in the final contract, but it was in the draft we saw.
14:47:34 <fizzie> elliott: Given how vague the official rules are, we were thinking it's not going to be worth it to complicate things by complaining about it.
14:47:40 <zzo38> ais523: Are you sure?
14:47:43 <fizzie> elliott: There's been enough of complications w.r.t. reference checks etc. already.
14:48:15 <elliott> complaining about the tv licensing fee on a google salary seems rather pointless
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14:48:32 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Client-side PHP in action: https://github.com/K-S-V/Scripts/wiki <-- oh god
14:49:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that looks like command line, rather than client side browser
14:49:40 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, it's weird to think of other countries having a BBC equivalent <-- Sweden has SVT, pretty sure Norway also has something like it, NRK iirc?
14:50:21 <zzo38> It is also possible for a program in PHP to check if running by command-line program or not.
14:50:46 <Vorpal> <fizzie> If you only ever watch ‘on demand’ programmes, you don’t need a TV Licence. On demand includes catch-up TV, streaming or downloading programmes after they’ve been shown on live TV, or programmes available online before being shown on TV." <-- what about Twitch?
14:50:53 <zzo38> (The FurryScript implementation does this.)
14:51:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: As I read it, that's "live TV". But I'm sure I don't know.
14:51:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: And it's a command-line "client", but sure.
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14:51:57 <elliott> why is furryscript called furryscript again
14:52:32 <zzo38> Due to an obsolete version of something called "Seventh Sanctum"
14:53:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have seen command line php stuff before yeah, though for stuff like maintenance scripts for mediawiki and what not
14:53:43 <zzo38> (The reason is somewhat obscure, but that's basically it)
14:53:45 <Vorpal> Not really stand-alone stuff
14:53:48 <fizzie> zzo38: The problem you described is discussed at https://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=660 where you could e.g. post a comment or star the issue. Though given that it's been 7 years and has 145 stars, I'm not entirely sure how much that would help.
14:54:23 <elliott> furryscript should ideally only be usable by furries
14:55:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, another random google feature request: TTS on Android for Swedish. Would be useful for in-car navigation. If I set it to English where there is TTS support I get much more detailed descriptions from the routing application.
14:55:54 <zzo38> elliott: Well, it is usable by furries, but anyone else can use it too, it doesn't try to exclude anyone please.
14:55:56 <Vorpal> But then the place names are spoken horribly
14:56:16 <elliott> fizzie can you fix google so it gives the results i want ? thanks
14:56:33 <elliott> fizzie can you give me a google-branded pen
14:56:34 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and also, make them stop spying on people.
14:56:41 <elliott> i felt really hi-tech when i used one
14:56:45 <zzo38> fizzie: I am unable to put in there the report.
14:57:03 <elliott> fizzie can you tell larry page about me
14:57:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Huh, there's no Swedish TTS?
14:57:31 <elliott> fizzie can you ask larry page if he got into web stuff because of his surname? was it fate or did he change his surname to page because he liked web pages so much. was he originally called larry smith or something
14:57:34 <zzo38> And reply #31 is the same one as my problem with it.
14:57:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, not with the default Google TTS thingy no
14:58:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are third party apps, I tried one, it crashed when I set it as the system's default TTS
14:58:31 <Vorpal> It was apparently not working with kitkat
14:58:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I know some people on the TTS side, but even if I asked them about when Android's going to get Swedish TTS, I wouldn't be able to tell you the reply.
14:59:09 <elliott> fizzie can you find out exactly how sergey sergery brin is
14:59:20 <zzo38> But there still is the other defect too, which is that it improperly emits a header in the response even if a headerless request is used.
14:59:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: I might mention it's a popular user request (N=1) at lunch, though the chances of that affecting anything are pretty small.
14:59:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it is silly though, because google translate can speak Swedish
14:59:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why the more generic TTS can't, I don't understand
14:59:48 <elliott> union of soviet sergey republics
15:00:13 <Vorpal> Presumably it is online and not offline or something
15:00:27 <zzo38> These two defects I reported are really the only two things I really care about fixing.
15:01:15 <zzo38> Google does a lot of other stupid stuff too but I don't care about it.
15:01:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: It does have an offline model. If you go to "settings / language & input / text-to-speech output / Google text-to-speech engine" (at least pre-Lollipop), there's a "download voice data" thing.
15:01:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know, and Swedish is not in that list
15:02:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, unless you meant that Google Translate is online, which is undoubtedly true.
15:02:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, exactly, it probably fetches the spoken line in Swedish from the google servers
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15:03:16 <Vorpal> But since you thus demonstrably have TTS for Swedish, why not put it in the Google TTS system-service provider thing as well
15:03:29 <Vorpal> That is basically all I'm asking
15:03:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think they use the same models offline and online. I mean, resource constraints and all that.
15:04:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or did you want the online thing as an Android TTS engine?
15:04:56 <Vorpal> Ah, yeah I want offline model, since often I'm in areas with no mobile coverage, or only GSM when I'm driving
15:05:20 <Vorpal> But I guess that could explain it
15:05:52 <fizzie> Since it was a publicly posted thing, I think I can mention that Google was looking for a fixed-time (12 months?) contract person to work on TTS on Finnish. The message was passed around on our university group lists a month or so ago.
15:05:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it tried to download the driving instructions on 1 bar of GSM, I would be way past the turn before it finished :P
15:06:21 <fizzie> Given that they do have Finnish TTS online, it sounds quite possible it would be about offline TTS, since Android doesn't do Finnish either.
15:06:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, Hm, interesting, Isn't Finnish a smaller language than Swedish though? But I guess there could be linguistic reasons that makes it higher priority
15:06:47 <fizzie> And given that Sweden is a bigger market than Finland, it wouldn't surprise me if they actually had a plan for this.
15:07:03 <fizzie> But this is all unverified. I could find out, but then I'd have to stop talking.
15:10:21 <fizzie> elliott: I can give you a Google-branded pen if I ever meet you (and happen to have one on me).
15:10:38 <fizzie> I got four as a souvenir from the job interview.
15:10:59 <fizzie> I don't know about the rest.
15:11:12 <elliott> well one out of ~twenty isn't bad
15:11:29 <elliott> are we going to meet up for you to give me a google pen and two old unix boxes
15:13:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is so special about these pens? Apart from the brand? Are they the usual bad quality of every other branded pen?
15:14:09 <Vorpal> (as in, non-pen-manufacture-branded)
15:20:08 <Vorpal> Apparently most of the reddit server side code is open source? Huh.
15:35:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Qq]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41723 * InputUsername * (+283) Added a question
15:36:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Qq]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41724&oldid=41723 * InputUsername * (-283) I am stupid. Never mind. Removed question.
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15:39:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think they were above-average, but nothing to write home about. (Perfectly okay for writing home *with*, though.)
15:42:31 <fizzie> The set of four I got were a set in the Google colours (blue, green, red, yellow), and then I had a more vaguely coloured one (teal, maybe?) from a Google event at the university few years back.
15:43:06 <fizzie> I think we have an employee discount in the Google merchandize store.
15:43:37 <fizzie> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/ <- this thing.
15:44:18 <elliott> random people can just buy google-branded merch?
15:45:28 <elliott> why would you want this google merch
15:45:47 <elliott> We streamline our web products, so why not streamline your capuccino cup? This mug has an insulated band around, cleverly negating the need for a handle. With white Google logo printed onto the coloured band.
15:46:17 <elliott> Cover your laptop in stickers. Cover your friend in stickers. Cover your cat in stickers (note: we do not recommend doing this). The countless ways to use these super cool stickers are waiting for you explore. The sheet contains 13 stickers of the full color Google logo.
15:46:31 <elliott> These fabulously fresh, beautifully presented mints make as good a gift as they do enjoyed by you alone. Each individual mint comes printed with the mulit-coloured Google logo, and it's also on the lid, so you can re-use the tin when the mints are gone!
15:47:36 <elliott> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Brands/Chrome/15+Chrome+Squishable.axd
15:48:09 <nys> finally chrome can be squishably soft
15:48:46 <elliott> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Brands/Android/Sportula+3-Piece+Set.axd?cid=689&page_no=3 what the fuck
15:49:05 <elliott> you could furnish an entire house with just google merchandise
15:49:37 <elliott> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Brands/Android/Android+Meat+Brander.axd?cid=689&page_no=5
15:50:01 <elliott> there was a "MEGA Android" for $70 but Sorry, we can't find that page! It might be an old link or maybe it moved.
15:50:02 <mroman_> On a scale from 0.0 to 1.0 how good is zero dark thirty
15:51:12 <elliott> (unless you're a fan of torture porn propaganda)
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15:56:24 <J_Arcane_> :D https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Fun/Go+Gopher+Blue+Squishable.axd?cid=1399
15:56:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> We streamline our web products, so why not streamline your capuccino cup? This mug has an insulated band around, cleverly negating the need for a handle. With white Google logo printed onto the coloured band. <-- we have coffee cups like that at work, I wouldn't recommend them, doesn't really work
15:57:04 <J_Arcane_> (I don't know Go at all, though I'm mildly curious about it, but I love the weird gopher logo)
15:57:40 <elliott> J_Arcane_: that is one of the few products in this store I wouldn't be terrified/vaguely repulsed to find in my house
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15:58:08 <J_Arcane_> Yeah. Most of it's just stuff that no one will ever own unless they get it free for working at Google.
15:58:19 <J_Arcane_> But that's just adorable, in a horrifying sort of way.
15:59:06 <mroman_> elliott: You mean it tries to justify torture?
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16:24:40 <mroman_> although from a visual standpoint Saw is much worse
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16:58:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, which postgresql python module did you use for the irc log import?
16:59:04 <Vorpal> Also where is the code for it? I know I have it somewhere, but I'm not sure where
16:59:46 <Vorpal> Also elliott I got a topic you might be interested in: the unsuitability of file systems.
17:00:25 <Vorpal> elliott, basically, I find that the hierarchical model of file systems breaks down for your home directory, it starts out all nice and clean on a new install, and a few months down the line it is a mess.
17:00:42 <Vorpal> Even if you try to keep it sorted
17:00:59 <Vorpal> So I'm now wondering what a better option would be
17:05:07 <Vorpal> Hm, some sort of tag cloud thingy perhaps?
17:06:07 <Vorpal> You could have "pockets" of hierarchy (like a project with source code) as entries in the tag cloud. And the tag cloud itself, could still be found under /home/name
17:06:53 <Vorpal> It would be hell to make it interoperate with existing unix tools though
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17:35:39 <int-e> Heh, I think tails is trying to bait me into revealing my "Reversed 8bit numbers" solution, he submitted improvements to two related problems.
17:37:57 <int-e> He's not that far away anyway, I expect he'll get there.
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17:46:23 <Vorpal> HTML5 parsing is a mess...
17:49:43 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/hs-shenanigans/blob/master/html.hs <- you should use CoolHTML
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17:50:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: psycopg2, and I don't think I've shared my log stuff anywhere, it's all pretty ad-hoc.
17:52:37 <int-e> mroman_: that's closer to xml than html. html allows many end tags (and even some start tags) to be omitted.
17:53:40 <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags
17:53:59 <oerjan> hm <p> would be a commonly omitted start tag, no
17:54:46 <oerjan> because it's used as if it's a delimiter despite theoretically being a tag surrounding the whole paragraph
17:55:19 <int-e> http://104.167.104.168/index.html is valid HTML5, for example.
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17:57:09 <int-e> (and the <p> can be omitted, too. isn't that fun)
17:57:44 <int-e> though obviously that results in a different parse tree
17:57:50 <oerjan> why is there a stupid "Add developer-view styles" button hovering (too close too) in the middle of the page
17:58:31 <oerjan> even w3.org cannot design properly :(
17:58:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm you shared some code with me, then I rewrote part of it iircf
17:59:21 <oerjan> <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags
17:59:33 <Vorpal> mroman_, I'm using BeautifulSoup4 (python) for web scraping, since I used it before, and thus know it.
17:59:54 <int-e> oerjan: looks fine without javascript? let me enable it...
18:00:02 <Vorpal> mroman_, Also the document is not well-formed
18:00:36 <int-e> oerjan: I see. Still, it looks fine without Javascript, so I didn't notice.
18:00:37 <Vorpal> mroman_, the issue I'm facing atm is that it has <meta name="keywords" value="...>, that is no closing " for value. The parser does resync after a couple of tags, but it is still annoying.
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18:01:51 <Vorpal> int-e, I see the button, it is in the top left
18:02:09 <int-e> Vorpal: funny, it appeared near the top right for me
18:02:16 <Vorpal> Err yeah top right I meant
18:02:45 <int-e> right, iceweasel, debian rebranded firefox, here
18:03:02 <Vorpal> Same in chromium though
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18:04:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, the issue with psycopg2 is that it doesn't appear to support prepared statements
18:05:03 <Vorpal> Which is rather annoying
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18:06:33 <int-e> oerjan: ok, one Haskell entry for Evil Numbers, but it doesn't feel optimal yet
18:07:47 <Vorpal> int-e, what constitutes an evil number?
18:08:04 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Evil+Numbers -- I guess it's a pun on "even"
18:08:48 <oerjan> it's also the indices of 0's in the thue-morse sequence, i think
18:09:14 * oerjan now waits for int-e to use that to shorten it
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18:10:51 <int-e> oerjan: I knew that
18:11:03 <Vorpal> Hm how does virtualenv in python work?
18:11:19 <Vorpal> That might help with this mess of modules
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18:15:04 <oerjan> <elliott> you could furnish an entire house with just google merchandise <-- let me guess, someone already did.
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18:20:36 <mroman_> Vorpal: only an idiot writes fail-safe parsers
18:20:56 <mroman_> why the hell did people start writing parsing that try to make sense of illegal stuff
18:21:05 <Vorpal> mroman_, I have no idea
18:21:17 <mroman_> that's like writing a compiler who doesn't say "error"
18:21:25 <Vorpal> The web would have been better if browsers had been strict from the get go
18:21:29 <mroman_> but rather tries to continue compiling in a creepy way
18:21:35 <Vorpal> mroman_, uh, some scripting languages are a bit like that.
18:21:56 <Vorpal> javascript obviously to some extent
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18:22:29 <Vorpal> Though not to the extent of HTML afaik
18:22:58 <mroman_> html parser should've failed hard from the beginning on
18:23:10 <Vorpal> exactly what I just said
18:23:13 <int-e> mroman_: because idiots were supposed to create web pages
18:23:55 <mroman_> int-e: the same way idiots were supposed to write SQL queries?
18:24:19 <int-e> I'm less sure about SQL
18:24:36 <mroman_> no but I thought it was designed for idiots to use
18:24:47 <mroman_> I.e. "ask questions in an 'english' fashion"
18:25:14 <int-e> mroman_: also there's a competitive factor. if a webpage looks good in one browser and bad (i.e. because an error is displayed instead) in anohter, clearly the former browser must be superior to the latter, right?
18:25:18 <mroman_> so the html guys tried the same thing but noticed rather than trying to make a language that looks like english they just write parsers that do some guesswork :p?
18:26:10 <mroman_> unless there's a rendering error
18:26:12 <Vorpal> I don't think SQL is a bad language as such, a bit overly verbose yes, but not all traditional languages are compact.
18:26:20 <int-e> mroman_: don't think like a programmer, think like a user
18:26:40 <Vorpal> Though I guess for example Pascal was also designed to be used by if not idiots at least beginners
18:26:46 <int-e> like it or not, there are *many* more users than programmers out there
18:27:03 <mroman_> but it's the web developers fault
18:27:20 <int-e> I don't think they had much choice.
18:27:23 <mroman_> Browsers could have displayed something like
18:27:45 <int-e> management would've vetoed them.
18:28:00 <mroman_> Ok hard to come up with a cool message
18:28:21 <mroman_> but it could have said something like "This website isn't standard conform"
18:28:53 <mroman_> "please contact the web site admin"
18:29:10 <mroman_> They should've convinced the user that it's the web admins fault, which it actually really is.
18:29:32 <mroman_> like they do with SSL certs nowadays
18:29:54 <int-e> mroman_: I honestly believe that it wouldn't have worked.
18:30:38 <mroman_> If browsers wouldn't display your page you would have motive to use correct HTML as a web site admin
18:30:57 <mroman_> The same way you had motive to make your web page look good even in browsers that render stuff incorrectly
18:31:33 <int-e> "designed for IE4"
18:32:09 <mroman_> Although users probably don't care about incorrect rendering
18:32:26 <mroman_> because web site admins fixed it for them by using hacks to make it look good
18:32:48 <int-e> yeah, the quirks machinery works both ways.
18:33:00 <mroman_> I can't say what would have happened
18:33:36 <mroman_> if all browsers would have gone the path of only accepting correct html then web site admins would have had enough incentive to use correct html
18:33:56 <Vorpal> I don't remember if it is firefox or some other browser that when you want to bypass an SSL error it defaults to adding a permanent exception, which is rather stupid I think
18:34:19 <mroman_> but of course, it could have gone the other way as well, like you said
18:34:29 <mroman_> where "displaying incorrect html" is a competitive advantage
18:36:05 <Vorpal> surely it would be easier to write a strict parser than a lenient parser
18:36:38 <int-e> Vorpal: I'm not sure. HTML pretended to be SGML for a long time, which has things like omitting tags...
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18:37:23 <Vorpal> it didn't come from xml
18:37:38 <Vorpal> Why on earth sgml had that I have no idea though
18:37:56 <int-e> Because it was made for people writing documents with markup?
18:38:09 <Vorpal> Isn't it </> you can use to close the last opened tag? And only lynx supports it
18:38:13 <Vorpal> out of the browsers I tested
18:38:37 <int-e> I mean this falls under the headline of "markup minimization", so the incentive seems fairly clear.
18:39:20 <int-e> I don't know about </>
18:40:13 <int-e> FWIW, I like XHTML.
18:41:22 <Vorpal> I don't really like XHTML either
18:42:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yep, that's standard SGML.
18:42:18 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what a good format would be though, XML + CSS sounds good on paper, but would probably turn out horribly in practice
18:42:30 <int-e> Vorpal: you seem to be right about </>.
18:42:36 <pikhq> int-e: "Pretended" hell. HTML literally claimed to be SGML and the official validator parsed as SGML.
18:42:57 <pikhq> The problem is, no browsers but Lynx actually did that. :)
18:43:50 <pikhq> So they didn't even write a strict-or-lenient parser, they all straight up wrote wrong ones.
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18:44:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I seem to remember lynx didn't handle something else though
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18:44:30 <int-e> And it worked! (90% of the time)
18:50:17 <oerjan> basically humans aren't designed to be able to keep systems elegant without life being at stake
18:50:49 <oerjan> (at stake at every point, not just in the future)
18:51:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LecRAM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41725&oldid=38231 * SEnergy * (-2625) Updated to new version of language
18:52:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * SEnergy * moved [[LecRAM]] to [[CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)]]
18:53:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, I worked with safety systems at work and I'm probably under NDA for the details, but that is one of the simplest and most elegant APIs to talk to the devices I have seen.
18:53:38 <pikhq> Therefore we should make automated elegance murder bots.
18:53:48 <pikhq> Commit an act of inelegance and you shall be murdered.
18:57:22 <oerjan> pikhq: can you make them murder people who make NDAs too, while you're at it?
18:58:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would be nice too yes
18:58:55 <Vorpal> everything open source
19:01:34 <pikhq> NDAs are inelegant.
19:02:02 <fizzie> </> is not the only silly SGML thing, there's that <FOO/xxx/ for <FOO>xxx</FOO> thing too.
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19:09:55 <oerjan> i think irregular webcomic has been more irregular in the past year than all the previous decade put together.
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19:56:58 <int-e> <oerjan> basically humans aren't designed to be able to keep systems elegant without life being at stake <-- and when lifes are at stake, things usually get ugly, hth
19:57:50 <int-e> ah good, now I have a new target, thanks oerjan
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22:36:39 <boily> /bwali/, not /bʌjli/ hth
22:37:45 <boily> it's pronounced bwah-LEE, with a short EE.
22:38:10 <boily> boiling bwater may be more accurate.
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22:38:29 <Zefphex> so boily is your real name
22:38:47 -!- Zefphex has set topic: Creepy Suzan | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:38:57 <boily> it's my family name indeed.
22:39:24 <Zefphex> I thought it was pronounced Boy-lee
22:39:49 <boily> nope. French name.
22:40:17 <b_jonas> it's pronounced as a French word?
22:40:22 <nys> or quebecois
22:40:27 <Taneb> Interestingly I do not pronounce "boily" (not the name) quite as "Boy-lee"
22:40:36 <Taneb> I pronounce it boy-uh-lee
22:41:23 <boily> but I shall remorselessly disappear. food time.
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22:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> is there a way of telling vlc to please stop defaulting to 'discard all samples' as an audio device
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22:43:36 <Zefphex> Sorry I'm not helpful, What's Vlc?
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22:46:28 <Taneb> I'm still sad about Google Wave
22:47:38 <Sgeo> Didn't someone start their own?
22:47:42 <Sgeo> Or am I misremembering
22:48:06 <Taneb> Copyright was transferred to Apache and it's Open Source, but it never caught on
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22:51:49 <int-e> (standing?) wave in a box in an incubator
22:53:42 <Taneb> Zefphex, it was an underrated novel communication platform Google came out with a few years ago
22:53:52 <Zefphex> Sgeo: you should just be dissapointed by all Google products
22:54:11 <Zefphex> The search engine is albiet "Decent"
22:54:51 <int-e> But I'm sure it could correct that typo.
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22:55:34 <Zefphex> I am after All just a child
22:56:07 <int-e> There's some truth to this, though. Things do not automatically become cool just by sticking a Google label on them.
22:57:18 <int-e> Ok, but now I have only one eye.... why did I do this?
22:58:32 <Zefphex> So you can watch porn in class?
22:58:59 <int-e> depends on the country
22:59:44 <Zefphex> How much money would it take to cover the entire planet in a wi-fi bubble?
22:59:44 <int-e> If by "can" you mean being allowed to.
23:00:13 <int-e> Ugh, too much. The oceans will be tricky.
23:00:38 <Zefphex> Yes, With tidal waves and earthquakes
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23:02:02 <J_Arcane_> Zefphex: I was on a podcast at the time and we used Wave to organize shows. Great concept, but it could be rather sluggish. I wonder how well something like it would run now that the browsers are stepping it up performance wise.
23:03:08 <Zefphex> Also If only the wi-fi could be transmitted through water expanses like oceans and seas
23:03:55 <int-e> I get 10^11 base stations at ~150m range
23:04:04 <Zefphex> Why does every one have an underscore at the end of their name
23:04:18 <int-e> Zefphex: And no I'm not a cat. Never been one, don't want to be one.
23:05:06 <int-e> Some clients default to appending _ when a nick is not available.
23:05:13 <J_Arcane_> Zefphex: I'm still really suspicious of Waterfox for some reason.
23:05:57 <Zefphex> it crashes on bash scripts and regex
23:06:47 <Zefphex> J_Arcane_: is your nick registered if so Set enforce and the ghost anyone using it
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23:08:18 <int-e> wait "it crashes on bash scripts" - I thought this was supposed to be a web browser?
23:11:34 <Zefphex> That's what someone told me when they used it.
23:11:44 <Zefphex> I personally have never used it.
23:12:00 <int-e> . o O ( It was probably a subtle case of browser bashing. )
23:12:27 <Zefphex> Be a true warrior and use Msn browser
23:13:12 <Zefphex> Yeah int-e since water fox has somewhat the same code as firefox since its an alternate of firefox
23:13:26 <Zefphex> Or if they had palemoon installed then that could happen
23:13:45 <int-e> Zefphex: next you're going to suggest AOL desktop...
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23:28:22 <J_Arcane> I think I actually kinda hate it.
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23:40:58 <Sgeo|web> The Chrome-inside Opera or the proprietary-inside Opera?
23:41:22 <Zefphex> It'll connect you to the bot net
23:41:25 <Sgeo|web> The latest Opera is based on the Chrome rendering engine
23:42:58 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:43:13 <J_Arcane> Yeah, it's basically just Chrome with bits carved out of it, and more bugs.
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23:44:31 <Sgeo|web> Tried to say something in QUassel
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23:46:11 <Sgeo_> Can I type the word proprietary-inside without freezing?
23:46:15 <J_Arcane> For some reason I got a bit of a wild hair to try and cut out more of the Google panopticon from my life.
23:46:57 <J_Arcane> This is sort of problematic, because as far as Chrome has fallen, everything else is pretty much worse.
23:47:11 <J_Arcane> DuckDuckGo isn't bad though. It's 'good enough' for most things.
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23:49:32 <Sgeo_> Does Google Cardboard count as too Google for you?
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23:51:11 <J_Arcane> heh. it's not like I'm not a hypocrite here; Gmail is still my main email.
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00:12:02 <Tritonio> http://www.spoj.com/SHORTEN/problems/MB2/
00:12:13 <Zefphex> Ah yes gmail the only email I only ever bother checking every other decade
00:12:29 <Zefphex> next time I check it will be when I'm 20
00:12:51 <Tritonio> can someone tell me how this can be solved with 12 chars when just to create the constant number 10 you need 10 chars?
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00:14:50 <elliott> you don't need to care about 10
00:15:08 <Tritonio> but the input ends with that char and if you "," after the end of input it just hangs.
00:15:45 <elliott> most bf implementations don't behave that way
00:16:01 <Tritonio> they return chr(0)? i'll try again with that assumption.
00:16:27 <elliott> I just solved it in 10 in vim.
00:16:36 <mitchs> you can look at the source of bff ( http://swapped.cc/#!/bff ), or there are other ways to find out too
00:16:59 <Tritonio> thanks i'll check the source and see how it behaves.
00:17:20 <mitchs> also, ideone uses most of the same language versions, so you can do tests there
00:17:44 <elliott> actually maybe my solution is 11, but whatever.
00:18:18 <mitchs> if you want me to tell you the EOF behavior, i also don't mind just saying it :p
00:18:58 <Tritonio> mitchs no thanks I'll figure it out. :-) Cheers elliott and mitchs. :-)
00:19:26 <elliott> mitchs: is that 10 byte solution yours?
00:19:58 <elliott> mitchs: if yes, how do you deal with gur arrq gb fxvc gur ynfg vachg olgr, naq gur (cerfhzrq) arrq gb abg eha bss gur yrsg bs gur gncr?
00:20:38 <mitchs> i am confused, but pleasantly so
00:20:51 <elliott> I didn't want to spoil Tritonio.
00:21:31 <Tritonio> I'll get out for a moment elliott. brb in 10 min or so. ;-)
00:21:43 <Tritonio> first of all there are pm's lol
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00:21:57 <Tritonio> and secondly you said "didn't".
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00:22:05 <mitchs> aha, you meant you wrote it using vim, not that it's a vim solution like on anagol, of course
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00:22:41 <mitchs> well lots of poeple are tied for first place with 12 bytes, which is dictated by the EOF behavior
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00:23:54 <elliott> I forgot that Tritonio said 12 chars.
00:26:44 <mitchs> also, the standard judge on spoj works like your_output.split() == expected_out.split()
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00:54:17 <Tritonio> is it using int sized cells??? so overflows don't happen at 256? https://github.com/apankrat/bff/blob/master/bff.c
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01:00:59 <int-e> huh, why is it using -1 for eof in one case (getc for reading from stdin) and 0 in another (getc_ext for readinf from a file)?
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01:02:14 <int-e> Tritonio: it may be enough to change the type of 'v' and the math in grow()
01:03:11 <Tritonio> int-e nah I don't need an interpreter. I just wanted to see how the one in spoj.com behaves...
01:03:35 <int-e> is that the one they're using?
01:14:14 <Tritonio> solved it with 13. lets see how i can get to 12
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01:22:35 <int-e> ah, that's the trick.
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01:27:03 <int-e> and spoj is horrible with all those banners. (I usually use Adblock but I tried that site with fresh profile...)
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01:35:34 <Tritonio> int-e just found the solution too. spoj was counting the emptyspace too apparently... :-)
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01:57:49 <Zefphex> Tritonio: I do indeed with one of the bots had a regex replacer
02:00:15 <boily> fungot: do you even replace?
02:00:16 <fungot> boily: i mean, hell: making a really simple idea, but unpractical with the fnord
02:00:18 <zzo38> Have you written a program to compile SQL codes into native codes or any other VM codes?
02:00:27 <boily> Tritonio: too impratical. it has fnord.
02:01:20 <zzo38> SQLite can compile into its own VM codes if the schema (and possibly analysis data) is known, therefore other program could use the EXPLAIN command in SQLite to use a partially compiled code to compile into something else.
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04:45:19 <Elizaveta> The chat... *dramatic pause* ... HAS DIED!
04:46:22 <zzo38> I am not quite so sure.
04:50:26 <zzo38> I wanted to make up some Magic: the Gathering cards based on some stuff in my "level20.tex" story, and related things I have done; I already have "Kjugobe's Timer".
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04:51:24 <zzo38> Then you must learn. How many things have you failed to heard of?
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05:08:16 <Elizaveta> Imagine if the newtons laws of motion went like this every thing has an equal and unequal reaction So if you punched a wall it would push you back with the force of a speeding truck
05:09:07 <elliott> "Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that’s where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit."
05:10:30 <Jafet> Nonsense. One does not simply punch into more doors.
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05:47:00 <Lilax> Did you just explain the Door Lords from Adventure Time?
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05:49:03 <Lilax> maybe that's another power they have
05:49:05 <Lilax> And since each door comes with a key, all the magic keys they have are from doors they made by punching people
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06:00:49 <Lilax> There are probably really powerful ones out there with a huge bounty on their heads because of how many people they've taken down and how much they've stolen, and they have crazy, hard to open doors
06:01:32 <elliott> just be sneaky by punching people into trap doors
06:01:37 <elliott> also, what a great line for oerjan to join on
06:02:14 <Lilax> they're the real door lords
06:02:22 <Lilax> and nobody can catch them
06:02:31 <Lilax> Because they are door lords
06:02:33 <elliott> beats pan lords, I suppose
06:03:18 <Lilax> I'm sorry for doing this to you oerjan
06:03:29 <oerjan> 's ok i mostly blame elliott
06:04:34 <Lilax> So like how was your day All persons available
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06:59:23 <oerjan> @tell boily -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIGOTILLECTOMIC CHICKEN). <-- that's not a word, now you're just cheating tdnh
07:06:37 <oerjan> <Zefphex> J_Arcane_: is your nick registered if so Set enforce and the ghost anyone using it <-- usually it's not someone else using it, but themselves disconnecting and reconnecting, and the old nick not being released fast enough
07:07:09 <oerjan> tl;dr: some people have crappy connections
07:08:01 <Jafet> `` sed -i 's/M/Trigotillectomic M/' wisdom/boily
07:08:04 * oerjan suspect "themselves" is ungrammatical in that sentence but doesn't know a better way
07:08:13 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
07:13:17 <elliott> oerjan: it parses okay to me
07:13:21 <elliott> a little awkward maybe but eh
07:13:29 <elliott> okay I should sleep actually
07:14:19 <oerjan> it seems i and elliott are currently maximally out of phase
07:15:23 <oerjan> which means my sleeping schedule is currently "normal"
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08:01:39 <Lilax> How's your day goin'
08:02:47 <oerjan> you do not have clearance for that information hth
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08:07:07 <AndoDaan> oerjan, when somebody uses the /// here, does that automatically corrected in the log?
08:08:48 <Lilax> [/1] then [//2] for the 2 / that are displayed
08:09:09 <Lilax> I used three /'s to make 2
08:09:20 <AndoDaan> I'm just wonder if there's any functionality to using on here ///, or if it's just visual.
08:10:27 <Lilax> it shows // instead of ///
08:10:45 <Lilax> the [/1] is the command / for irc
08:11:03 <Lilax> and its not listed in logs since its only pinging the server from your client
08:11:16 <Lilax> so nah it only shows //
08:11:44 <Lilax> [/]// makes the first one invisible to logs
08:12:36 <AndoDaan> Just to make sure, I mean the http://esolangs.org/wiki//// sense of ///
08:14:43 <Lilax> the s/word/replace/
08:14:52 <Lilax> Ye don't most bots have that
08:15:01 <Lilax> Except everybot here
08:15:15 <AndoDaan> Yeah. Your "probably not" probably still stands.
08:15:46 <Lilax> Well if we had something to test it
08:16:07 <Lilax> Doesn't fungot have one?
08:16:07 <fungot> Lilax: obviously there's the business of writing out let but in a different language to allow it to render outside the box? totally awesome.
08:16:13 <zzo38> I don't think [/1] is a IRC command?
08:16:56 <Lilax> which results in //
08:17:44 <zzo38> Once I was on some IRC that did automatically correct people who typed s/whatever/whatever/ but it annoyed both me and whoever I was trying to communicate with; he had control over that bot so he disabled it.
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08:19:32 <Lilax> s/example/example/r/ on the bot I used replaced everything and would litterally spam all replaced words for that month
08:19:43 <AndoDaan_> I just thought maybe it could allow a user to make a quick ninja edit to mispelled sent chat line.
08:19:52 <Lilax> I used litterally and probably spekt it wrong
08:20:37 <Lilax> you mean a replacer bot?
08:20:44 <zzo38> I don't like the automatic fix (especially raw logs shouldn't automatic fix) it can cause problems if used improperly and that stuff
08:20:52 <oerjan> AndoDaan: no, the bots do not.
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08:21:21 <Lilax> s/stuff/thing bot: Lilax meant to say Things and stuff
08:21:28 <AndoDaan_> Alright. I don't know why these type of questions pop in my mind.
08:21:45 <oerjan> Lilax: we had such a bot here a while ago.
08:22:06 <oerjan> it wasn't related to the logs, though.
08:22:13 <Lilax> Is that what you meant?
08:22:33 <Lilax> Or do you want a bot that corrects misspellings in the logs
08:22:43 <Lilax> that would be improbable
08:23:01 <Lilax> atleast almost impossible
08:23:37 <oerjan> only the logging bot itself could do that. also we have (at least) two of those.
08:24:13 <Lilax> Since if I were to say sinfe the bot would have to figure out how many times I want that sinfe to be since then what would it do if I said sinfe two times but wanted it to correct it once
08:24:14 <zzo38> You could also download it and then use a local program to perform the corrections
08:24:29 <Lilax> but that takes tiiiime
08:24:59 <oerjan> and it would in any case not change the fact that everyone actually present will have _already seen the original_
08:26:12 <AndoDaan_> It might be cool to write something at would tried to interpret any and all possible esoteric code snippits found in the chat.
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08:34:29 <zzo38> I want to write IRC bot using C and SQLite. I don't have time right now but may do with in a week. Do you like this, or do you hate this, or both or neither? What is your opinion what you would want such thing doing? What question/complaint please?
08:36:02 <Lilax> Its your choice we Support ye
08:36:16 <zzo38> Yes I know, but I also just wanted to know if other people have opinion about it.
08:36:48 <zzo38> The money is not required; I do it for free.
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08:39:01 <zzo38> If the database contains no triggers then it would just send the NICK/USER/PASS/JOIN/MODE commands at the start and then make a log of everything it receives in the database (with one record per message received), but if you add triggers then you can make it to do different kind of stuff instead of or in addition to logging, such as to make up a chess game.
08:39:33 <zzo38> Does this seems like properly to you?
08:42:15 <AndoDaan> Anything other than logging would have to be implemented by you. The user couldn't do anything then set and send triggers?
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08:47:07 <zzo38> Triggers would be included in the database schema; that is how SQL works.
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08:53:39 <Andodaan> Any risk of memory leakage, or unsanitary data with using C SQLite?
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09:24:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably like, but I probably want to make an irc but myself eventually, to rewrite my ugly bots to a sane structure.
09:25:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: i have a mostly sane proof of concept implementation that handles all that server extension stuff that lets me follow who is logged in as what nickserv account,
09:25:43 <b_jonas> which I'll eventually need when I rewrite the cbstream bot (I use the codename "cbvapor" for the rewrite)
09:26:39 <b_jonas> but I want to rewrite that initial implementation because it sucks, especially the way it's hardwired to work only with SASL login.
09:27:06 <b_jonas> plus I want to make the framework work (with reduced functionality) on irc networks other than freenode.
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10:15:52 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/i8YO5Bpq
10:16:42 <b_jonas> does ARM still count as a RISC cpu by the way? I knew it started as RISC, but since then they've added all kinds of nonsense extra instructions and modes that I'm not sure it still is one
10:17:08 <b_jonas> mind you, it still seems to have fewer hindering historical cruft on it than x86
10:17:32 <Jafet> That's because it's accumulating the historical cruft right now
10:17:44 <Jafet> Be patient and give it another ten years
10:18:00 <b_jonas> x86 had more of a head start (it started with z80 and whatever that other cpu is)
10:18:17 <b_jonas> ARM certainly has at least _some_ historical cruft too
10:18:42 <b_jonas> some of it quite similar to x86 actually: a flags register that has both arithmetic result status flags and processor mode control flags
10:19:17 <b_jonas> why does that always have to be the same register?
10:20:16 <Jafet> Why would you use more than one register for that
10:20:23 <b_jonas> (maybe so that it can be saved on the stack together in interrupt routines, but still, there's probably less need for that in ARM)
10:20:50 <jameseb> b_jonas: would you rather they kept the flags in the program counter like they used to in older versions of ARM?
10:20:56 <b_jonas> Jafet: because it leads to nonsense like that writing (restoring) the flags register is a privilaged instruction even though you want to do it just to restore arithmetic flags
10:21:38 <b_jonas> jameseb: I don't know really.
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10:22:17 <mroman_> /0>\ is obviously probably the simplest program
10:22:22 <jameseb> I can see your point though, having access to arithmetic flags would make sense
10:22:30 <b_jonas> Jafet: and you can't just write a new value to the status register usually, but only by modifying an existing value, because it has flags you mustn't modify
10:22:34 <Jafet> The ISA lets you set the arithmetic flags directly as well.
10:23:12 <b_jonas> I'm not giving an opinion now on whether there should be an arithmetic status flags register in first place, I'm just saying, if there is one, it should be separate from control flags
10:23:47 <b_jonas> just look at the MOS 6502 which does it right:
10:24:18 <b_jonas> there's an interrupt disable flag, but it's not in the status flags register
10:25:32 <Jafet> It doesn't really matter since it's not a real register anyway, it's just a bunch of bits that happen to be listed in one register for convenience
10:25:33 <mroman_> (besides /\ which just idles around)
10:25:46 <b_jonas> and given how on ARM, fewer instructions modify the flags register, and it has shadow registers for modes like the z80, it wouldn't even be essential to save it automatically when entering an interrupt
10:26:14 <b_jonas> unlike in the x86 where most instructions mess up the flags
10:26:28 <mroman_> //>\0\ should scan until it reaches a non zero cell, set it to zero and continue
10:36:10 <Jafet> .oO( Ubuntu 2025 "Faulty Fly" for armeb64, now with Jazelle-accelerated systemd! )
10:42:26 <b_jonas> mroman: so wait, what's this?
10:42:50 <Jafet> Er, s/Faulty Fly/Perfidious Pinworm/
10:43:05 <b_jonas> mroman_: is this something like bfjoust but with a way more powerful instr set?
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10:51:46 <mroman_> you have to trick your opponent into executing NUL
10:52:58 <mroman_> and programs are actually on the tape
10:53:18 <mroman_> so you can write self-replicating programs even
10:57:28 <mroman_> but I'm thinking of adding an extra cost to loops
10:57:35 <mroman_> i.e. if the jump is taken it costs you an extra cycle
10:57:40 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, is there a more complete description?
10:57:47 <mroman_> b_jonas: Not yet, but soon :)
10:58:19 <b_jonas> why aren't there proper goto/comefrom instructions, whether with immediate label or computed, rather than these stupid loops only?
10:59:02 <mroman_> because it's brainfuck like?
10:59:10 <mroman_> or supposed to be at least
10:59:50 <mroman_> suggestions are welcome If you have any
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11:57:33 <mroman_> b_jonas: technically because these just use the stack you can do computed jumps too
11:58:26 <mroman_> but it might mess up forward jumping :)
12:00:29 <boily> what was it again...
12:00:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 1m 11s ago: -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIGOTILLECTOMIC CHICKEN). <-- that's not a word, now you're just cheating tdnh
12:01:18 <boily> @tell oerjan of couse I'm cheating! never let orthograph get in the way of a good sounding word, I say.
12:02:14 <boily> http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/S/scrozzle.html
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12:46:12 <mroman_> is there no fucking image viewer for linux that lets you display multiple images in the same window
12:46:23 <mroman_> Debian probably has 5 image viewers pre-installed and none seem to be able to do that
12:49:27 <mroman_> http://i.imgur.com/CSYstxV.jpg
12:49:32 <mroman_> I got inspired to play with image filters
12:49:47 <mroman_> but there no good image viewer has been found so far to make side-by-side comparisons
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13:04:19 <mroman_> although this filter here takes hours for 640x480pix images
13:14:47 <mroman_> jesus christ it's so slooow
13:16:44 <fizzie> mroman_: It's probably because you're supposed to do it the Unix way, and make up some sort of pipeline calling ImageMagick to put your images side-by-side.
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13:38:21 <mroman_> otherwise it's even taking too long for 256x128
13:47:57 <Jafet> Just create a HTML file with the layout you want.
13:49:20 <mroman_> now my filter runs on 8 cores
13:49:43 <Jafet> Although, debian has at least five web browsers and probably none of them have proper colour handling (then again, do any of the image viewers?)
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13:57:52 <jameseb> vanila: lambdabot works over (or did earlier)
13:58:31 <jameseb> must be just #haskell that has lambdabot broken
13:58:32 <vanila> it does not respond to #haskell
14:00:04 <mroman_> Math.pow(x,2); is apparentely faster than Math.pow(x,1)
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14:05:57 <mroman_> http://i.imgur.com/BBN78m8.png <- anyway. After minutes that what my filter did to the image
14:09:30 <mroman_> but it's somewhere in O(N^4)
14:16:40 <mroman_> for regular blur maybe, yes
14:25:38 <mroman_> but yes, Math.pow(x,2); is faster than Math.pow(x,n); for n = 1..10\2;
14:25:54 <mroman_> i.e. for Math.pow(x,n) for n = 1..10; n = 2; is the fastest one
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14:26:36 <mroman_> and by faster I mean *really faster*
14:28:18 <int-e> mroman_: what does the filter look like? I believe the standard approach for this is to do 2D FFTs, and then it should become O(log(wh)wh)
14:28:33 <int-e> that is, if you can't decompose things into box filters
14:28:44 <int-e> (which are O(wh) each)
14:29:19 <int-e> but that assumes linear filters which are shift-invariant. maybe yours isn't
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14:35:13 <mroman_> vanila: http://codepad.org/uGxDOc8L
14:35:39 <mroman_> that's how much faster Math.pow(x,2) really is
14:36:08 <vanila> i guess it's using base 2
14:39:27 <mroman_> well, using a for loop to pow is actually way faster :)
14:39:41 <mroman_> if n is an integer using a for loop is way faster than calling Math.pow
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14:40:54 <fizzie> It looks pretty clear there's a special-case for x^2.
14:43:02 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/5MZBlUjm
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14:43:53 <mroman_> well, n=4 and n=8 also take 10s
14:44:17 <mroman_> so looks like a special case for x^2
14:44:51 <int-e> perhaps there's a java benchmark that does stuff like sqrt(pow(x,2)+pow(y,2))
14:45:22 <fizzie> Aw, "public static native double pow(double a, double b);"
14:45:27 <vanila> could you try comparing pow(pow(x,2),2) against pow(x,4) ?
14:46:02 <fizzie> Java_java_lang_StrictMath_pow(JNIEnv *env, jclass unused, jdouble d1, jdouble d2) { return (jdouble) jpow((double)d1, (double)d2); } /* hmm */
14:46:29 <fizzie> Can't tell where "jpow" comes from, at least immediately.
14:46:49 <b_jonas> try to make it call a real optimized hypot
14:50:20 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/6u1ZCdYg
14:50:28 <fizzie> Don't see the ^2 special case there, but it's quite possible I missed something while skipping through.
14:50:29 <mroman_> ^- this is the fastest way to do pow so far I have found
14:50:32 <mroman_> it even beats the for loop
14:50:40 <vanila> mroman_, I have a rqeuest for compare
14:50:44 <vanila> if you can benchmark it
14:50:57 <vanila> btw I know a slightly faster algorithm for power
14:51:02 <vanila> you can use the binary expansion
14:51:20 <mroman_> Math.pow is probably not optimized for int
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14:51:54 <fizzie> Oh, right, there it is.
14:52:08 <fizzie> /* special value of y */ if(hy==0x40000000) return x*x; /* y is 2 */
14:52:11 <vanila> x^1011 = ((x^2)^2*x)^2*x
14:52:18 <mroman_> vanila: And what would that request be?
14:52:22 <vanila> could you try comparing pow(pow(x,2),2) against pow(x,4) ?
14:52:36 <vanila> rather than just pow(x,2) against pow(x,4)
14:52:51 <vanila> so the result numbers will be equal
14:53:03 <fizzie> mroman_: There's also a special case for x^0.5 to do sqrt(x). And there *should* also be a special case for 1.0, I don't know why you didn't observe that.
14:54:46 <int-e> horrible, horrible code.
14:55:21 <fizzie> It seems to be inherited from Netlib.
14:55:30 <fizzie> http://www.netlib.org/fdlibm/
14:55:59 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the other way around, I don't know. That still has Sun's copyright notices in there.
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15:00:22 <mroman_> Math.pow(Math.pow(x,2),2) := 33ms
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15:01:36 <int-e> oh my... http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/plain/src/system/libroot/posix/glibc/arch/x86/e_pow.S
15:02:03 <int-e> (hmm, why did I find a haiku link first for a glibc file, but who cares)
15:02:51 <vanila> i thought it migth just be sfaster because of smaller numbers
15:04:14 <mroman_> but yeah, generally instead of writing Math.pow(x,3); you might as well just write x*x*x instead
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15:22:55 <mroman_> either use some fancy algo or at least for loops :)
15:23:01 <mroman_> that's what I've learnt today from Math.pow
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15:46:54 <J_Arcane> http://eighty-twenty.org/2015/01/25/monads-in-dynamically-typed-languages/
15:47:37 <mroman_> how can you use such a pure concept in such an impure environment.
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15:49:08 <J_Arcane> the article demonstrates how. ;)
15:50:33 <vanila> you can use monad anywhere
15:50:53 <int-e> stacking monads on top of other things
15:51:02 <vanila> it's very intersting in scheme actually
15:51:11 <vanila> since you have SHIFT/RESET delimited continuations
15:51:16 <vanila> you can write monadic code in direct style
15:51:26 <mroman_> I like that people here still believe that I actually know what I'm talking about :p
15:51:45 <mroman_> I know the formal definition of a monad though
15:51:58 <J_Arcane> vanila: Yes, Heresy uses continuations to implement monad-like pure for/do loops.
15:52:24 <J_Arcane> I'm rather proud of them, because they are evil.
15:53:01 <mroman_> and that Functors preserve isomorphism.
15:53:08 <mroman_> I really should continue reading that book
15:53:59 <J_Arcane> I'm trying to work through REal World Haskell now, but I can't concentrate on anything. I had to close the main #haskell IRC too because every time I looked at it I just got self-conscious and depressed. XD
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16:18:45 <mroman_> J_Arcane: Yeah, #haskell is kinda that way :)
16:18:54 <mroman_> all that functor talk in here
16:19:00 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
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16:24:14 <J_Arcane> mroman_: I don't mind here, because it's not so bad as all that.
16:24:34 <vanila> does anyone recommend some simple logic programming thing which I could try?
16:24:42 <vanila> i want to have a neat example code
16:24:47 <vanila> and this logic language supports =/=
16:25:46 <J_Arcane> Watching #haskell though is like to give the impression that the only way to actually get anything done in Haskell is to have a CS Ph.D and spend all your time hacking hypermorphic pseodological type combinators of type Z-alpha-6 to work with Lenses.
16:33:39 <int-e> J_Arcane: does it? you seem to be filtering the channel differently than I do
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16:37:12 <elliott> it really isn't, unless #haskell got a lot more advanced since I left.
16:37:38 <elliott> I think you're projecting your existing preconceptions onto the channel.
16:38:15 <elliott> in my experience #haskell is 90% easy beginner questions, maybe it changed
16:38:57 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: that's wrong. you have to get a maths PhD degree. a PhD degree in CS is worthless.
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16:39:38 <J_Arcane> I see a lot of walls of theoretical talk and high-level type wizardry and so forth; really that's what I see most of the time.
16:39:48 <J_Arcane> #nothaskell is a little better, I find.
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16:40:48 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: but really, just because we talk about high-level type wizardy on the channel sometimes doesn't mean you have to know all that to write programs in haskell
16:41:06 <b_jonas> and the channel is friendly and usually helps you if you ask actual questions
16:45:58 <J_Arcane> I think it psyches me out a bit sometimes is all; I *am* in fairness a bit self-conscious about feeling 'behind' when it comes to programming in general, and with Haskell in particular that gap can be very, very apparent.
16:46:43 <vanila> J_Arcane, Why do you feel like you are behind in programming?
16:46:54 <elliott> tbf the haskell community is elitist and awful in my extensive experience
16:47:00 <vanila> yes I agree with elliott
16:47:34 <mroman_> the reverse 3-minute egg is coming
16:47:45 <J_Arcane> vanila: Because I'm 34 years old, haven't coded anything for over a decade until just within the past year. I'm effectively a newbie with a grown man's problems. :/
16:47:51 <mroman_> "ustralian chemists have figured out how to unboil egg whites"
16:48:15 <elliott> J_Arcane: at last you weren't embarrassing yourself on IRC from age 11 onwards
16:49:07 <J_Arcane> Heh. I actually stayed away from programming for years because I'd largely convinced myself I wasn't good enough on the one hand, and also hated the languages that were most popular on the other. :P
16:49:20 <J_Arcane> Also, I was a BASIC coder. So. There's that.
16:49:31 <mroman_> All popular languages suck. -- mroman
16:49:48 <elliott> one day I will destroy the #esoteric logs
16:49:55 <elliott> and nobody will remember teenage me
16:50:23 <mroman_> Aren't you technically still one?
16:51:17 <elliott> for a few more months yeah
16:51:37 <mroman_> (That was an xkcd pun btw.)
16:52:01 <elliott> oh. well. I don't care about xkcd :p
16:52:38 <mroman_> I'm gonna unboil me some eggs.
16:53:04 <vanila> all laws of physics are reversible aren'tthey
16:53:07 <J_Arcane> Growing up with your favorite language being considered a pariah only barely elevated above that of COBOL by 'serious programmers' probably leaves some scars. XD
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16:53:31 <vanila> J_Arcane, its a shame becuase its not even like other languages are any better
16:53:51 <vanila> some people mosty just repeat what they hear rather than think about it
16:54:08 <J_Arcane> Djikstra's paper casts a large shadow which many coders indeed have largely repeated verbatim for decades.
16:54:21 <vanila> I don't notice that at all
16:54:31 <vanila> i think everyone uses and recommends goto
16:54:41 <J_Arcane> Which is not to say that BASIC doesn't have some pretty large problems, just that I've been hearing about them for almost 20 years at this point ...
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17:23:57 <mroman_> I have a very good classification schema for programming languages
17:24:05 <mroman_> a.) the length of the array is part of the type
17:24:11 <mroman_> b.) the length of the array is not part of the type
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17:30:30 <mroman_> man fuck flow/float-out website menus
17:30:56 <mroman_> does CSS3 address those btw?
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17:31:39 <J_Arcane> mroman_: So, doesn't that mean both C and BASIC are equally terrible? ;)
17:32:48 <b_jonas> mroman_: what if both is possible?
17:33:09 <b_jonas> like, you know, in Haskell or C++
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17:45:25 <J_Arcane> http://worrydream.com/#!/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg
17:45:53 <vanila> I wish people did not use #!/
17:46:02 <elliott> http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/
17:46:04 <vanila> i know im in for some web 4.0 shit
17:47:06 <elliott> "code literacy"/"everyone should program" is such an awful concept
17:47:19 <elliott> mroman_: "talking about him" is probably smoother? what' the context?
17:47:37 <mroman_> hm yeah. about sounds better. Thanks.
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18:10:44 <Melvar> mroman_: How do you classify languages which don’t have arrays?
18:11:10 <mroman_> obviously they are not languages
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18:14:13 <int-e> oh great. first they make the web unusable, then they notice that they make the web invisible to crawlers, then they "fix" it, now I just have to wait for noscript&co to catch up. https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/
18:16:48 <mroman_> ah. to use the html snapshots etc?
18:17:19 <int-e> Right, just turn the #!-stuff into ?_escaped_fragment_= like google would
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18:18:00 <Melvar> mroman_: How about, arrays have the length in the type, but it is trivial to wrap them so it disappears?
18:18:25 <int-e> what about C which has some lengths in array types?
18:20:51 <elliott> int-e: tbf people have moved away from #! now that there are actual history APIs for javascri
18:21:01 <elliott> I think that google #! thing is basically a deprecated stopgap
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18:21:08 <elliott> because twitter used #! for a while or whatever and it was a disaster
18:27:18 <mroman_> obviously you should use framesets
18:27:53 <mroman_> framesets are actually exactly that
18:27:58 <mroman_> they prevent reloading the whole page
18:28:12 <mroman_> because you can just reload the content frame when you click on a link inside it
18:28:34 <mroman_> does html5 even have framesets :D?
18:29:00 <mroman_> I say we try to make CoolHTML a standard
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19:32:38 <myname> also: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163683/cycles-in-family-tree-software
19:36:45 <int-e> I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent explanation for this.
19:37:28 <int-e> how about a) tracking historical lineages in aristrocratic families. or b) tracking lineages in a computer game.
19:45:16 <glguy> genealogical software isn't about awarding points for the best looking trees, just tracking reality. It's surprising that it didn't occur to someone writing that kind of software to handle that case
19:45:43 <glguy> but other than that it's just a zombie post
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19:52:34 <int-e> well it did occur to them
19:54:07 <int-e> Ah, English, how I hate thee.
19:55:22 <int-e> Of course "someone writing [...]" meant that particular someone, not any someone (like Bert Goethals below who clearly did consider all these things)
19:56:55 <glguy> Yeah, otherwise I'd have gone with "anyone"
19:58:31 <int-e> It's a matter of emphasis to me, and ASCII sucks at transporting that. Oh and English is not my native tongue.
19:59:55 <glguy> Also, Bert's existence ruled out the "anyone" interpretation ^_^
20:01:31 <int-e> Anyway... oh look! A butterfly!
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20:06:38 <int-e> http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/naturelibrary/images/ic/credit/640x395/l/la/large_blue_butterfly/large_blue_butterfly_1.jpg
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20:56:27 <mroman_> I will make an ESOSC draft for CoolHTML
20:57:25 <mroman_> and maybee CoolStylesheets
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21:05:15 <mroman_> And by cooler I mean more user friendly
21:05:32 <mroman_> and by user I mean people like me
21:05:36 <nortti> and by more user friendly, you mean esoteric?
21:05:38 <mroman_> and by friendly I probably mean friendly
21:06:14 <mroman_> First of all no flash, no javascript
21:06:36 <mroman_> It's HTML focused on content
21:06:56 <nortti> how about a scripting language that only allows scripts that can be formally proven to terminate. proof has to be attached?
21:07:05 <int-e> mroman_: make sure it has a blink tag.
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21:16:13 <J_Arcane> i had the idea eaarlier while in the WC of a virtual machine built around the idea of 'everything not false is true' a la Scheme.
21:20:24 <int-e> (the blink tag should be aperiodic, to make it cool.)
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22:03:13 <mroman_> int-e: blink isn't content, so... no
22:04:47 <int-e> mroman_: you could have it display a message in morse code
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22:13:34 <int-e> oh great, that's what has been tripping me up. "`electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default."
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22:16:44 <elliott> int-e: oh, that's an emacs change?
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22:18:56 <int-e> and I'm used to breaking lines by placing the point (^) in front of a space, "abc^ def", and then pressing enter and delete... resulting in "abc\nef" with electric-indent-mode.
22:19:33 <int-e> (of course I should rely on auto-fill-mode instead... oh well)
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23:47:35 <Sgeo> shikhin: https://www.reddit.com/r/Prismata/comments/2trg0q/in_approximately_60_minutes_at_5pm_est_well_have/
23:47:43 <Sgeo> err where's shachaf
23:49:38 <zzo38> What exactly would CoolHTML do? Might it be better to just support pod?
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00:40:47 <zzo38> How to read input with a timer in a C code?
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01:04:00 <FireFly> I imagine CoolHTML would just be HTML 1.0
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01:14:36 <zzo38> Extreme Counterspell {2UU} Artifact Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant spell ;; {2}, {Q}: Exile enchanted spell. ;; {1UU}: Counter enchanted spell. ;; Madness {1U}, Ninjutsu {(2/R)(U/W)}, Persist, Undying
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01:19:02 <pikhq> Bizarre Counterspell {2U} Instant ;; Play a subgame with target spell as your library. Your opponent has no library.
01:19:33 <zzo38> What will happen when subgame is finished?
01:20:07 <pikhq> Nothing. Except that the targetted card is shuffled into its owner's library. :)
01:20:52 <zzo38> I suppose then it doesn't work if the target spell is not a card.
01:21:13 <pikhq> s/target spell/target card on the stack/
01:22:08 <zzo38> Let me to study the rules for subgames again
01:23:55 <zzo38> I suppose rule 715.3 makes the subgame to immediately end in a draw.
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01:25:28 <zzo38> (Not that anyone cares the result of this subgame!)
01:25:46 <pikhq> Yep. The state of the subgame is inobservable.
01:26:09 <pikhq> Unless there's something really stupid like Leyline of Wish (hypothetical) around. :P
01:27:02 <zzo38> I suppose if it is a variant game that uses stuff starting in the command zone that it might possibly do something
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01:27:27 <int-e> sorry, what does {Q} denote?
01:27:51 <pikhq> {Q} is the untap symbol.
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02:02:35 <zzo38> What does "Leyline of Wish" mean?
02:17:34 <pikhq> Joke, hypothetical leyline that does a wish at the start of game.
02:22:08 <Taneb> Bah, my sleep schedule is messed up again
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02:47:14 <zzo38> How to read input with timer in a C code?
02:49:53 <pikhq> select with a timeout on the fd?
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02:50:38 <zzo38> How do you do that in a C code that work in UNIX and in Windows(MinGW)?
02:51:14 <zzo38> It can use #ifdef if it is necessary
02:52:00 <pikhq> I advise printing out a copy of POSIX and going to Redmond with it, and beat people with it until the C library improves.
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02:56:09 <pikhq> (if you do this I will join you, and gladly)
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03:05:25 <zzo38> I can't use Xenix! Even if I could it won't help because it is needed to be cross-platform system rather than only for Xenix
03:06:00 <int-e> (Which used to be a MS branded Unix...)
03:06:26 <int-e> I'm so proud I remembered the name ;-)
03:08:36 <zzo38> I know that, and like I said it wouldn't help.
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05:17:48 <zzo38> I still didn't get any reasonable answer how to make input (from stdin) to timeout
05:18:38 <Eolus> idk what that'd about zzo38
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05:21:14 <zzo38> I want to make with MinGW so that if something is receive by stdin with pipes it can time out to wait for input, to do something else and then try again until there is either the input or timer again
05:22:48 <Eolus> Firsr of all, Explain the usage of minGW
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05:27:03 <zzo38> In PHP there is a socket_select command, but I would use C rather than PHP, and using stdin/stdout rather than socket
05:29:12 <zzo38> So more like PHP's stream_select but in C
05:31:36 <Eolus> I have no idea how to use C
05:32:05 <coppro> at the start of a sentence, when you would otherwise use c
05:34:40 <MDude> The start of personal and place names is also appropriate.
05:35:53 <MDude> As are titles, but only when used as part of or substitute for a name.
05:36:24 <Eolus> Who are you directing this towards?
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05:41:35 <MDude> ...Conversation can be *directed*?
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05:46:00 <Eolus> If [a] Mdude is talking to [b] coppro And [b] goes to talk to [c] random person the conversation Mdude made would be taken from mdude and given to talk about to [c]
05:46:10 <Eolus> Thas how you direct a conversation
05:46:46 <coppro> Eolus: I'm giving you good advice
05:47:19 <Eolus> For that amazing advice
05:47:21 <MDude> I think you got the people reversed, but otherwise fair description of the concept.
05:48:25 <MDude> All of C's input/output functions are in libraries.
05:48:47 <MDude> So if you're asking how to use stdin/stdout then look up standard library commands for it.
05:49:54 <MDude> I'd also try to get a shortned list that cuts out all the commands are known to be completely awful for all uses, which may be most of them.
05:52:35 <Eolus> All of its inputs and outputs are in libs?!
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06:42:24 <zzo38> I want to make IRC bot in C, and I want to be able to use it with timers. Connection to internet can be done with netcat (I tried it and it works).
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06:54:43 <zzo38> That's why I ask such qustion before
06:56:50 <myname> i thought of making a bot based on ii
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06:58:20 <myname> http://tools.suckless.org/ii/
07:00:31 <myname> i just really don't want to handle all that irc stuff myself
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07:21:31 <zzo38> Well, I want to make out of SQLite
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09:18:58 <mroman_> int-e: then it'll be <morse>Hi there, sexy</morse>
09:24:20 <oerjan> > map (($"").showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit)[67,70,73]
09:25:12 <oerjan> a broken golf problem :(
09:28:31 <oerjan> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Odious+Numbers+With+Bad+BO
09:29:46 <mroman_> "tails (next of 67 should be 70)"
09:30:37 <mroman_> 1clock220.05642015/01/14 19:14:330B / 9B / 13B
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09:38:05 <mroman_> he was inactive for a loooong time
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10:10:12 <j-bot> mroman_: |ill-formed number
10:10:17 <j-bot> mroman_: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
10:10:31 <j-bot> mroman_: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
10:10:48 <j-bot> mroman_: |limit error
10:10:48 <j-bot> mroman_: | i.9+i.9
10:10:53 <j-bot> mroman_: |syntax error
10:10:53 <j-bot> mroman_: | \i.9+i.9
10:10:56 <j-bot> mroman_: |syntax error
10:10:56 <j-bot> mroman_: | /i.9+i.9
10:11:17 <mroman_> b_jonas: how do you map i. over a list of numbers?
10:11:42 -!- blsqbot has joined.
10:11:48 <blsqbot> | {{1} {1 2} {1 2 3} {1 2 3 4} {1 2 3 4 5} {1 2 3 4 5 6} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9}}
10:13:17 <j-bot> b_jonas: ┌┬─┬───┬─────┬───────┬─────────┬───────────┬─────────────┬───────────────┐
10:13:17 <j-bot> b_jonas: ││0│0 1│0 1 2│0 1 2 3│0 1 2 3 4│0 1 2 3 4 5│0 1 2 3 4 5 6│0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7│
10:13:17 <j-bot> b_jonas: └┴─┴───┴─────┴───────┴─────────┴───────────┴─────────────┴───────────────┘
10:13:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: ┌─┬───┬─────┬───────┬─────────┬───────────┬─────────────┬───────────────┬─────────────────┐
10:13:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: │0│0 1│0 1 2│0 1 2 3│0 1 2 3 4│0 1 2 3 4 5│0 1 2 3 4 5 6│0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7│0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8│
10:13:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: └─┴───┴─────┴───────┴─────────┴───────────┴─────────────┴───────────────┴─────────────────┘
10:15:05 <b_jonas> mroman_: I'm not sure that answers your question, try to ask more precisely
10:15:07 <j-bot> mroman_: |syntax error
10:15:20 <mroman_> b_jonas: How do you calculate a sum?
10:15:28 <j-bot> mroman_: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
10:20:26 <j-bot> mroman_: |rank error
10:20:35 <j-bot> mroman_: |ill-formed number
10:20:45 <j-bot> mroman_: |syntax error
10:20:57 <j-bot> mroman_: |syntax error
10:21:35 <mroman_> oh " takes a verb on the left
10:21:49 <b_jonas> actually it takes either a noun or a verb on the left
10:21:56 <b_jonas> but the case where it takes a verb is more useful
10:22:29 <mroman_> How can I select the max element of all elements in a matrix?
10:24:08 <b_jonas> do you want only the value of the max element, or the index?
10:24:51 <mroman_> b_jonas: is there a find index?
10:25:50 <j-bot> mroman_: |ill-formed number
10:26:45 <b_jonas> [ (i.>./)0 8 6 6 NB. find index of maximum
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10:27:02 <b_jonas> [ 1{0 8 6 6 NB. check back which element that is
10:27:06 <mroman_> why doesn't 8 i.,q return 1?
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10:32:39 <j-bot> mroman_: ┌─┬─┬─┬─┬─┬─┐
10:32:39 <j-bot> mroman_: │0│1│2│3│4│5│
10:32:39 <j-bot> mroman_: └─┴─┴─┴─┴─┴─┘
10:32:50 <j-bot> mroman_: 4 3 6 2 9 8 5 1 7 0
10:32:57 <j-bot> mroman_: ┌─────────────┬─────┐
10:32:57 <j-bot> mroman_: │8 7 1 3 2 6 5│9 0 4│
10:32:57 <j-bot> mroman_: └─────────────┴─────┘
10:33:10 <j-bot> mroman_: |domain error
10:33:10 <j-bot> mroman_: | #/C.?.~10
10:33:15 <j-bot> mroman_: |domain error
10:33:15 <j-bot> mroman_: | #"1/C.?.~10
10:33:37 <j-bot> mroman_: 8 7 1 3 2 6 5
10:33:37 <j-bot> mroman_: 9 0 4 0 0 0 0
10:33:45 <Jafet> Does J also write all error messages in one line
10:33:53 <j-bot> mroman_: 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
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10:34:02 <mroman_> I have no idea what I'm doing :D
10:34:40 <Taneb> Why can I never be bothered to Tuesday?
10:36:39 <mroman_> var =: ~.@(] , |:&.> , |.&.> , |."1&.>)^:3
10:42:52 <mroman_> oh well. Maybe I'll continue Burlesque
10:44:47 <mroman_> having to write 100ro{...}f[ is just too long
10:44:58 <mroman_> 100{...}FO is much better :D
10:45:14 <blsqbot> | "I have 358 non-special builtins!"
10:46:41 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}{\[}{)to{"Block"==}ay}w!
10:47:11 <mroman_> fizzie: You don't know any short way to completely flatten a Block?
10:47:35 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}Sh
10:47:36 <blsqbot> | "[[1], 2, [[3, 4], 5], [[[]]], [[[6]]], 7, 8, []]"
10:47:46 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2sH
10:47:46 <blsqbot> | [[1] 2 [[3 4] 5] [[[]]] [[[6]]] 7 8 []]
10:47:48 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}0sH
10:47:48 <blsqbot> | [[1], 2, [[3, 4], 5], [[[]]], [[[6]]], 7, 8, []]
10:47:51 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}1sH
10:47:51 <blsqbot> | [[1],2,[[3,4],5],[[[]]],[[[6]]],7,8,[]]
10:47:53 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}3sH
10:47:53 <blsqbot> | {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}
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10:48:15 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}3sH)ri
10:48:15 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
10:48:15 <blsqbot> | {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}
10:48:24 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}3SH
10:48:24 <blsqbot> | "{{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}"
10:48:27 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}3SH)ri
10:48:27 <blsqbot> | {0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0}
10:48:30 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}3SH:ri
10:48:47 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}0sH
10:48:48 <blsqbot> | [[1], 2, [[3, 4], 5], [[[]]], [[[6]]], 7, 8, []]
10:48:58 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}1sH
10:48:59 <blsqbot> | [[1],2,[[3,4],5],[[[]]],[[[6]]],7,8,[]]
10:49:01 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2sH
10:49:01 <blsqbot> | [[1] 2 [[3 4] 5] [[[]]] [[[6]]] 7 8 []]
10:49:24 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2sH"(\[|\])""r~
10:49:24 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 55):
10:49:27 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2sH"(\[|\])"""r~
10:49:27 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (r~) Invalid arguments!
10:49:32 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2sH"(\[|\])"""R~
10:49:32 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (~=) Invalid arguments!
10:49:43 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH"(\[|\])"""R~
10:49:43 <blsqbot> | "(\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])1(\\[|\\])](\\[|\\]) (\\[|\\])2(\\[|\\]) (\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])3(\\[|\\]) (\\[|\\])4(\\[|\\])](\\[|\\]) (\\[|\\])5(\\[|\\])](\\[|\\]) (\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])[(\\[|\\])](\\[|\\])](\\[|\\])](\\[|\\]) (\\[|\\])[(\\[|
10:49:53 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH"""(\[|\])"R~
10:49:56 <mroman_> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH"""(\[|\])"R~ps
10:50:34 <mroman_> fizzie: Things like 2SH"""(\[|\])"R~ps might work for special edge cases
10:51:36 <mroman_> I.e. to remove any occurence of [ or ] using a Regex just sucks
10:52:01 <mroman_> and there's no StripManyLeft/StripManyRight
10:57:35 <mroman_> rn.+^^{L[}>mlnhd10coSPln{wd{,’ P[}m[}{1 0}#aD!m[SPsh
10:57:40 <mroman_> still more readable than J.
10:59:55 <blsqbot> | {77 49 22 1 78 35 57 69 70 71 70 34 81 46 2 24 78 25 67 15 39 77 26 25 82 80 38 10 83 5 68 2 20 87 30 56 40 63 93 24 38 27 67 52 38 27 77 52 20 97 25 80 45 8 11 67 65 93 69 13 63 34 87 25 66 99 71 30 63 84 73 22 3 17 72 32 59 32 91 85 72 43 56 13 90 27 76
10:59:59 <blsqbot> | {77 49 22 1 78 35 57 69 70 71 70 34 81 46 2 24 78 25 67 15}
11:00:09 <mroman_> !blsq 0 0 100rn20.+{20.>}fI
11:00:09 <blsqbot> | {0 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18}
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11:16:03 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH
11:16:03 <blsqbot> | "[[1] 2 [[3 4] 5] [[[]]] [[[6]]] 7 8 []]"
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11:19:12 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"fe}m[
11:19:12 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
11:19:25 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"jfe}m[
11:19:25 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
11:21:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments!
11:21:16 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments!
11:21:40 <b_jonas> mroman_: how do I find the index of a character in a string, or test whether the character is in the strong?
11:33:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 271100Z 03018G27KT 15SM OVC200 M15/M20 A3009 RMK CS8 SLP194
11:59:17 <oerjan> int-e: as predicted, the Typeable bug fix gets caught up in the GHC release panic...
11:59:33 * oerjan wonders how many packages depend on a polykinded Typeable instance
12:00:20 <oerjan> Control.Lens doesn't seem to have any Typeable constraints at all.
12:00:39 <oerjan> singleton only uses it at *
12:09:38 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> Anyway... oh look! A butterfly! <-- technically it's a moth hth
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13:04:23 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments!
13:04:33 <mroman_> with Fi you can find the index of a character
13:04:40 <mroman_> and with ~[ you can test if it's in the string
13:06:06 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (FI)!
13:06:14 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments!
13:07:19 <mroman_> if you want to search for multiple occurences
13:08:29 <mroman_> which also works with infinite lists of course
13:14:43 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"j~[}f[
13:14:43 <blsqbot> | "[[][[]][[[]]][[[]]][]]"
13:15:11 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"j~[n!}f[
13:15:35 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"j~[n!}f[ra
13:16:09 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"j~[n!}ps
13:16:09 <blsqbot> | {{[]} ERROR: Burlesque: (ps) Invalid arguments! j ERROR: Burlesque: (ps) Invalid arguments! ~[ ERROR: Burlesque: (ps) Invalid arguments! n!}
13:16:09 <blsqbot> | "[[1] 2 [[3 4] 5] [[[]]] [[[6]]] 7 8 []]"
13:16:16 <b_jonas> !blsq {{1} 2 {{3 4} 5} {{{}}} {{{6}}} 7 8 {}}2SH{"[]"j~[n!}f[ps
13:16:40 <b_jonas> that. but it's not very short.
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13:28:49 <mroman_> yeah I guess there should be a "Flatten" built-in
13:28:55 <mroman_> which completely flattens a Block
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13:30:19 <mroman_> {\[}{)to{"Block"==}ay}w! is the most generic way of doing it
13:30:41 <mroman_> it calls concat as long as there is an element of type "Block" in the Block
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13:31:03 <mroman_> you can shorten that to q\[{)to{"Block"==}ay}w!
13:31:16 <mroman_> and you can probably shorten "Block"== to 'starts with B'
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13:59:18 <mroman_> b_jonas: Have you written some burlesque programs?
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14:05:33 <Eolus> Wtf is j-bot doing
14:05:41 <Eolus> And why is there so much spam
14:06:08 <Eolus> I'm guessing the only reason to spam a bot here would to check an error
14:06:10 <mroman_> !blsq "J-Bot is doing J"<-Q
14:06:15 <Eolus> Although there is also
14:06:22 <Eolus> A channel for that
14:06:38 <mroman_> !blsq "J-Bot is doing J")<-Q
14:07:15 <Eolus> its called j-bot for a reason
14:07:21 <mroman_> !blsq "J-Bot is doing J"<-)<-XX)'0wdQ
14:07:21 <blsqbot> | 0 j 0 0 G 0 N 0 I 0 O 0 D 0 0 S 0 I 0 0 T 0 O 0 b 0 - 0 j
14:07:26 <Eolus> I'm asking you why its being spammed
14:07:47 <Eolus> Do it somewhere else maybe :-:
14:08:30 <mroman_> Bots need to be spammed or they'll feel alone and worthless.
14:08:45 <Eolus> Because they were made to feel
14:09:55 <mroman_> `learn blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'.
14:09:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'blsqbot': blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'.
14:10:29 <mroman_> I've never seen you around here btw?
14:11:00 <Eolus> You've actually seen Us before
14:15:05 <Eolus> Ive actually never burlesqued
14:16:28 <mroman_> http://fmnssun.github.io/Burlesque/
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14:33:03 <b_jonas> mroman_: have you documented the new builtins related to variables yet?
14:34:47 <mroman_> it's <any><string>sv and <string>gv (setvar, getvar)
14:35:22 <mroman_> and there's the more readable %<string>=<token> with %<string>? and %<string>!
14:36:49 <mroman_> !blsq %:0 "nine" 9 "eight" 8V
14:37:15 <b_jonas> oh, you mean the %: starts a map
14:37:31 <mroman_> !blsq %:0 "nine" 9 "eight" 8V"nine"lk
14:37:31 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (lk)!
14:37:33 <mroman_> !blsq %:0 "nine" 9 "eight" 8V"nine"lv
14:37:33 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (lv)!
14:37:38 <mroman_> !blsq %:0 "nine" 9 "eight" 8V"nine"ml
14:37:39 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (ml)!
14:37:50 <mroman_> !blsq %:0 "nine" 9 "eight" 8V"nine"mg
14:37:50 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (mg)!
14:38:02 <mroman_> !blsq %:0 "nine" 9 "eight" 8V"nine"mv
14:38:02 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (mv)!
14:39:34 <mroman_> but blsqbot hasn't been updated just yet for those new changes
14:42:09 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (|])!
14:42:16 <b_jonas> what are those? and do you have a postscript-like mark yet?
14:42:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (|])!
14:42:51 <b_jonas> do you have a peek builtin yet?
14:42:57 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 3):
14:42:57 <blsqbot> | expecting digit, white space, "%", "g", "s", "S", "m{", "q", "{", "\"", "-", "'", "(", "y" or "Y"
14:43:33 <mroman_> it escapes code so it's not executed
14:43:45 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (|])!
14:44:30 <mroman_> ^- and obviously this won't either
14:44:49 <mroman_> !blsq |[1 2?+y3 4?+Y5 6?+]|
14:45:01 <mroman_> 1 2?+ is executed, 5 6?+ is executed
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14:45:11 <mroman_> but y3 4?+Y not because it's escaped using yY
14:45:24 <mroman_> so y3 4?+Y will be 3 4?+ in the resulting Block
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14:45:46 <mroman_> !blsq "hi""there"sv{"hi"gv}
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14:45:56 <mroman_> !blsq "hi""there"sv|["hi"gv]|
14:46:04 <mroman_> !blsq "hi""there"sv|["there"gv]|
14:46:15 <mroman_> !blsq "hi""there"sv|[y"there"gvY]|
14:46:42 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!}
14:46:54 <mroman_> yY is the same thing as ()
14:47:05 <mroman_> except that () only works for a single token and yY works for multiple tokens
14:47:08 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
14:47:08 <blsqbot> | expecting space, white space or ")"
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15:17:49 <b_jonas> well this language is scary
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15:20:53 <fungot> mroman_: at least what should i make them well), would i still be able to
15:21:12 <mroman_> fungot: Can you unboil eggs?
15:21:12 <fungot> mroman_: what's ( a+bi)/(c+di)? *ponder*
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15:22:07 <b_jonas> fungot: if you had an invisibility cloak, what would you use it for?
15:22:07 <fungot> b_jonas: if you want to unload any c64 floppies here the equipment is all ready in " fully reduced form", "
15:22:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:22:47 <mroman_> fungot: If you had an invisible cloak, how would you know you have it?
15:22:47 <fungot> mroman_: you should know will it exits or not :) correct? i don't
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15:25:50 <mroman_> fungot: What are your plans for this weekend?
15:25:50 <fungot> mroman_: the comments in here were talking about yesterday
15:26:19 <quintopia> fungot should learn complex arithmetic
15:26:19 <fungot> quintopia: sisc's interface looks roughly equivalent to " this is"
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15:26:38 <fungot> mroman_: http://www.wolframscience.com/ prizes/ tm23/ fnord oh. but drscheme is a good channel to discuss typing? here or haskell?!
15:27:52 <Jafet> `? stephen wolfram
15:27:54 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
15:28:51 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
15:28:57 <b_jonas> fungot: forumla 3.7.13 in Abramowitz--Stegun, see at http://convertit.com/Go/ConvertIt/Reference/AMS55.ASP?Res=150&Page=16&Submit=Go
15:28:58 <fungot> b_jonas: and is one of the other qubits should stay. you, in the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
15:29:34 <fungot> mroman_: to. why, this is for you guys are a lot
15:30:12 <b_jonas> fungot: or 1.9.16 in the new handbook, see at http://dlmf.nist.gov/1.9#E16
15:30:13 <fungot> b_jonas: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let it no more fnord than they, for all you have to hire the fitting on the fnord back, my little dear, i shall have to leave any minute now
15:30:23 <b_jonas> ugh, that looks like underload
15:31:02 <mroman_> fungot: How random are you?
15:31:02 <fungot> mroman_:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive) or " in meinen lederhosen" ( plural) or " in meinen lederhosen" ( plural
15:31:05 <mroman_> fungot: How random are you?
15:31:05 <fungot> mroman_: and, dab, words like pop-culture should use the binary level, then the file extension for oses which can be considered to be abstained, it doesn't end with `try again'. ( the last character output before it will issue this warning is meant to just be patient, the answer, the fact remained to collect, reduce, wapr ( use %help for argument information)
15:31:54 <fungot> b_jonas: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has that as their whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:32:00 <fungot> b_jonas: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these to tristan d'acunha, a volcanic origin, a high, and was fnord him with his umbrella. " who can have patience to acquire it. just fnord" brutha. " do you know much about gods, i am no fighter:
15:33:16 <fungot> mroman_: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going fast and such an apparently non-standard format is being dimensioned by assigning dimensions to them; and sets. maybe thats what them meant by experimental selected so it fnord be useful information regarding the report, mr. owen, i am satisfied, with much ado. your sister is the better part made mercie, i should think at least, t
15:33:50 <mroman_> if you hit every stupid person you'd be in jail.
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15:59:15 <mroman_> fungot: What did you study?
15:59:15 <fungot> mroman_: and it's self-modifying techniques." stop immobilizes and disables you. in these bones, i shall return! by the way, the wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace?
16:00:45 <mroman_> an actual self-modifying bot in here would be fun.
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16:18:11 <int-e> fungot: that stop sounds highly effective
16:18:11 <fungot> int-e: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
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16:20:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:27:55 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:20:09 <Taneb> Hmm, there's an interesting seminar about OpenCL tomorrow
18:20:13 <Taneb> I shall make an effort to attend
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19:28:49 <oerjan> @ask edwardk Are you aware of https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858 ? i note you're not Cc:ed, and with your large number of libraries you might be affected by the suggested temporary fixes...
19:30:01 * oerjan realizes he could have privmsg'ed directly...
19:30:31 <oerjan> int-e: what didn't help, i've forgotten
19:32:06 <J_Arcane> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=64962
19:47:17 <oerjan> ooh cpressey was mysteriously passing through
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20:06:41 <int-e> oh re-erecting burned bridges.
20:08:45 <oerjan> int-e: um are you referring to the burning bridges proposal?
20:09:10 <oerjan> or to the typeable mess
20:09:19 <int-e> oerjan: I'm referring to the "Drastic Prelude changes imminent" thread, and the burning bridges slowly idea there.)
20:09:46 <int-e> no. libraries mailing list.
20:12:00 <int-e> (well, it might be on/find its way to reddit. I wouldn't know.)
20:12:22 <arjanb> it's already big on the haskell reddit..
20:13:39 <arjanb> somehow the old guard feels the need to wake up only at the last moment...
20:14:19 <elliott> This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete all copies and notify the sender immediately. You may wish to refer to the incorporation details of Standard Chartered PLC, Standard Chartered Bank and their subsidiaries at
20:14:24 <elliott> http://www.standardchartered.com/en/incorporation-details.html
20:14:39 <int-e> well at least I got a good laugh out of https://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2015-January/117893.html
20:17:08 <elliott> how was spj completely unaware of this exactly
20:17:17 <int-e> that's a mystery to me.
20:17:34 <elliott> I don't even follow haskell any more and even I knew some stuff was happening with the prelude
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20:30:17 <J_Arcane> Command-line based real-time mech shooter. http://www.kevinpauly.me/#!mecha-trigger/c19a7
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20:34:55 <int-e> http://www.kevinpauly.me/?_escaped_fragment=mecha-trigger%2Fc19a7 ... fail. <body><div id="SITE_CONTAINER"></div></body> (but a nice comment about ajax crawling near the top)
20:35:18 <int-e> I missed an underscore. sigh.
20:35:36 <int-e> http://www.kevinpauly.me/?_escaped_fragment_=mecha-trigger%2Fc19a7 actually displays something
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21:00:48 <J_Arcane> http://esoteric.codes/post/109310541818/folders-a-language-with-no-files
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22:22:22 <PinealGlandOptic> hi everyone. got a question. am I right that macrosystem of PL (C, LISP) is crutch and good PL with regular syntax ideally should go without it?
22:23:09 <zzo38> I do not understand.
22:23:28 <zzo38> I believe macros are a good idea.
22:23:42 <elliott> the C and Lisp macro systems (well, macro systems plural in the case of Lisp dialects) are so wildly different that almost no statement can meaningfully quantify over them.
22:23:45 <zzo38> But I think it can be a matter of opinion.
22:23:52 <elliott> C's preprocessor macros are basically text substitution with very little else.
22:24:05 <elliott> Lisp macro systems are much closer to code-writing-code compiler extensions.
22:24:37 <zzo38> I believe it is a good idea for as much as possible/reasonable to be defined using macros.
22:24:43 <elliott> I can see the argument for cpp macros being a crutch; they're usually used in ways that a more powerful language wouldn't need, sure.
22:24:51 <elliott> Lisp is another story; it's an integral part of why the language is extensible.
22:24:58 <elliott> PinealGlandOptic: Haskell has macros (Template Haskell).
22:25:13 <elliott> by cpp I mean C preprocessor.
22:25:20 <elliott> it needs them less due to having good abstraction power thanks to call-by-name semantics and a first-class treatment of effects
22:25:31 <elliott> but template haskell is still used. (it's pretty ugly, though.)
22:25:50 <zzo38> PinealGlandOptic: Me? Definintely.
22:26:01 <elliott> depends what the language is like... it's nice when you don't have to use macros to accomplish some task, since that generally results in things being simpler, but having the facility available is very powerful
22:26:16 <zzo38> Not only does Haskell have Template Haskell (usually you don't need them but it can sometimes help a lot), but my opinion is that such things as do-notation and list-syntax also ought to be made into macros instead of how it is now.
22:26:17 <elliott> you get a lot of extensibility from a (relatively) simple mechanism
22:26:39 <PinealGlandOptic> elliott: yes, that's what I mean, "it's nice when you don't have to use macros to..."
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22:27:54 <elliott> in some sense if it's hard to come up with something you'd need macros for, then you probably have some abstraction that behaves very much like macros in some ways
22:28:03 <elliott> er, I was right the first time.
22:29:01 <PinealGlandOptic> oh, BTW. noob question. I feel that early primitive PLs were just simple term-rewriting systems. am I right?
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22:30:31 <elliott> depends what you mean by term rewriting...
22:32:10 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
22:32:15 <zzo38> There still are many macro assemblers though.
22:33:19 <J_Arcane> AUDIO REACTIVE TOOL FOR CONVERTING FORTRAN BASED ANDROID APPLICATIONS TO VISUALISATIONS
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22:33:34 <zzo38> For many different kid of systems. Some assemblers don't have macros though, or don't have very powerful macros.
22:33:41 <J_Arcane> http://whatthefuckismymashup.com/
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22:58:42 <Taneb> Help I atriq'd by accident
23:01:18 <zzo38> "Manifest target spell."
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23:40:12 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!1!!!!one!!!11!!
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00:10:03 <ais523> hmm, is this the right channel to post Wikipedia pages which are so specific I'm surprised they exist?
00:10:05 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_castling
00:11:00 <zzo38> Probably not, but you can post it anyways.
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00:15:05 <boily> it is chess, therefore it is the right channel.
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00:21:13 <J_Arcane> are there any esolangs that encode instructions in chess moves?
00:21:32 <J_Arcane> because chess notation looks to me at least as unintelligible as burlesque.
00:23:09 <ais523> hmm, clearly we need an esolang which has a relatively simple mapping between chess moves and instructions (preferably one that ties into chess somehow, not a boring BF equivalent)
00:23:21 <ais523> but the twist is: the program needs to be a valid chess game
00:23:44 <ais523> the hardest part would presumably be ensuring that each piece is only moved from the square it's currently on
00:25:08 <J_Arcane> Looks like the wiki turns up only a couple unfinished and unimplemented idea pages.
00:26:05 <J_Arcane> It does occur to me that a chessboard is essentially 8 one-byte registers, after a fashion ...
00:26:29 <ais523> this also makes the language fail at full TCness because it only supports finitely many programs
00:26:38 <ais523> however, IMO it should at least be curly-L complete
00:28:54 <J_Arcane> That's true. Chess is 'solvable' after all. Now Go ...
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00:30:20 <int-e> ais523: hmm, the 50-moves rule isn't enforced.
00:33:50 <int-e> (same for the three-fold repetition)
00:34:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41728 * BCompton * (+133) Created page with "Should this page be ''CBF'' instead of ''CBR''? ~~~~"
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01:42:00 <ais523> J_Arcane: but Go is already a programming language
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02:02:27 * boily sings «Ban go, ban go, ban go, ban go, ban go dai kazoku ♪»
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04:37:58 <Sgeo> There exists a web browser written in Node.js
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04:40:45 <copumpkin> can't get much more isomorphic than that
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07:54:55 <zzo38> Did you study my Magic: the Gathering puzzle.3 by now? Or you don't?
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08:11:52 <oerjan> has reddit changed its comment font? i suddenly find it harder to read :(
08:16:36 <oerjan> it's sans serif now, i don't remember if it used to be
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08:20:58 <oerjan> actually, i think it's just increased the size of the font one step too much
08:21:33 <oerjan> changing text size to small made it look normal
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08:58:42 <zzo38> A chess rating system with inflation could involve that a game is (e^(tr)) points where e is the base of natural logarithms, t is the timestamp in seconds since the epoch (you can change the epoch in order to rescale; all ratings are then recomputed), and r is the inflation rate in hertz. The system is of course more complicated than just that, but that can be one of the components of a system.
09:00:50 <zzo38> Do you think it can be worked?
09:12:08 <Jafet> Why do you want inflation?
09:14:26 <oerjan> everyone knows deflation is harmful
09:18:14 <zzo38> So that more recent points winning/losing is worth more.
09:28:25 <Jafet> You could use a model that assigns each player not only an estimated rating, but also an estimated rating rate of change
09:32:20 <Jafet> An exponential inflation rate won't work because if, say, an IM plays against a GM who hasn't played (in rated tournament games) for several years, the IM would start with a higher rating even though he is expected to lose
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09:54:55 <zzo38> Sorry, it was connection error
09:56:08 <zzo38> The purpose of this rating system I try to make up isn't exactly the same as things such as Elo anyways.
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09:59:50 <zzo38> Also, event bonuses would be part of the system too.
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10:10:03 <zzo38> Event bonuses would be based on different expectations calculated for each event. No wins/losses are calculated at all outside of a tournament. If you play outside of a tournament, your score is safe.
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10:58:08 <mroman> Wouldn't systems using average rank be way better?
10:59:53 <mroman> If you win as the lower player you switch ranks with your opponent
11:00:04 <mroman> for example if you play as rank 5 against a rank 3
11:00:09 <mroman> then the average ranks are 5 and 3
11:00:21 <mroman> you'll be promoted to rank 3 and he'll go down to rank 5
11:00:30 <mroman> which means both have an average rank of 4 now
11:00:45 <mroman> both stay at their ranks
11:01:01 <mroman> is then the new average rank of the winning player
11:01:15 <mroman> will be the rank of the loosing player
11:03:05 <mroman> (Obviously there are two rankings then. The current ranking and the ranking based on average ranking)
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14:06:32 <Eolus> oerjan its always been sans serrif
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14:45:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41729&oldid=41598 * InputUsername * (+82) Added qq implementation
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15:09:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41730&oldid=41345 * 68.227.98.57 * (+107) /* Normal implementations */
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15:48:23 <FireFly> they did increase the font size (and other small changes): https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/2tw6pm/reddit_change_changes_to_default_text_styling/
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15:51:43 <GeekDude> I was thinking the font was slightly different
15:53:35 <mroman> I guess reddit sucks then
15:54:33 <mroman> Websites shouldn't set a font-size.
15:55:03 <mroman> but only in terms of relative to default font-size
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15:55:28 <GeekDude> Someone did something to the headers
15:55:36 <GeekDude> http://i.imgur.com/T6Vym68.png
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16:19:05 <int-e> and this is why forums are fundamentally broken. you're forced to use the front-end as provided by some website.
16:19:35 <int-e> rather than, say, your favourite news reader. (oh Usenet, I have not seen you for ages)
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16:27:40 <int-e> "Well, this is h1. It should be really big."
16:27:56 <int-e> yeah, well, true. but you just know people are going to abuse it for emphasis.
16:28:24 <mroman> That would be totally different with CoolHTML
16:28:40 <int-e> (I saw GeekDude's screenshot. I don't need more demonstration.)
16:28:52 <int-e> mroman: we had a better world. it was called plain text.
16:29:25 <mroman> we had a better world. it was called messenger pigeons.
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16:31:28 <int-e> You may, I don't think I do. I'm averse to "cool", it makes me shiver.
16:34:02 <int-e> you know what upsets me more than sites arbitrarily changing their layouts though ...
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16:34:32 <int-e> ... is that different sites have font sizes that vary by orders of magnitude (at least that's what it feels like).
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16:35:54 <int-e> oh and that 'px' still hasn't died out in CSS.
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16:39:22 <int-e> (e.g. the esoteric codes site has a huge font. must be a blog thing.)
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16:43:01 <mroman> I'm still experimenting with http://mroman.ch/designs/d2/
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16:44:29 <mroman> Next thing I gotta do some boxes and buttons that scale well across different displays
16:44:48 <mroman> the first thing for smartphones is websites that have ads on the left
16:44:56 <mroman> because those ads just take away so much space
16:47:43 <mroman> I hate websites that require zoom to function well
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16:47:58 <mroman> some websites use incredibly small font-sizes for links
16:48:14 <mroman> so to click them you have to zoom in a lot
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17:34:14 <vanila> https://gist.github.com/ahmadsalim/11077308
17:34:16 <vanila> Proof that Agda is Turing complete
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17:43:17 <elliott> https://github.com/wouter-swierstra/Brainfuck mcbride makes this point a lot too
17:43:28 <elliott> (uh, not to imply that's mcbride)
17:48:52 <int-e> vanila: Looks acceptable to me.
17:49:06 <int-e> vanila: what's your objection?
17:49:25 <int-e> elliott: the README is missing a negation, isn't it?
17:49:59 <vanila> I don't understand what point wouter is trying to make
17:50:21 <int-e> "I get tired of explaining that totality is not the same as Turing completeness." <-- I think he means "incompleteness" there.
17:50:49 <elliott> vanila: that there's no reason the RTS can't follow codata like it follows IO actions
17:50:59 <elliott> Agda's IO monad is codata so it's TC I guess
17:51:11 <elliott> (as in, agda is TC in the same way that haskell can do IO)
17:52:19 <elliott> (conor also likes making the point that even for programs which don't terminate in practice, we generally don't want full partiality: for instance, a server should run forever, but it should always respond to requests in finite time -- i.e. unless the task is "implement a TC language", you can probably do better modelling things with a notion of productivity than just a full-blown partiality monad)
17:54:26 <int-e> (Tangentially related, stream fusion has streams (which are codata) with a Skip constructor because that avoids recursion, leading to better inlining...)
17:54:42 <int-e> (And I don't know why I thought of this now.)
17:54:57 <vanila> for some reason my view of 'turing complete' is about the functions N -> N you can implement
17:55:02 <vanila> and it's not TC in that respect
17:55:14 <vanila> but it IS TC in a looser sense I guess
17:55:34 <elliott> it's meant more as a rebuttal to people being, like, well, agda is total, so it's not TC, so you couldn't use it for writing real programs
17:55:50 <elliott> especially interpreters, etc.
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17:57:38 <int-e> vanila: Right, here the view taken is that of a decision problem (i.e. the machine accepts some language L, with acceptence indicated by program termination.)
17:58:24 <int-e> right, codata is essential because now totality does not imply termination anymore.
17:59:40 <int-e> And that's how the argument goes: because the programs are total function, they have to terminate on all inputs, and therefore the language can't be TC.
17:59:53 <elliott> we would accept this as proof of agda being TC on the esowiki, say
18:00:08 <elliott> because we don't look at the internals of programs to see exactly how they're implemented when making that call
18:00:16 <elliott> (well, other than to verify it really has infinite memory etc.)
18:00:28 <vanila> I feel like it is misleading to tell people agda is turing complete
18:00:45 <int-e> Also in any paper in theoretical computer science, provided we say something about how to produce the `main` function in general.
18:01:25 <elliott> I feel like it's misleading to tell people it's sub-TC
18:01:38 <elliott> turing-complete : can do IO
18:02:03 <elliott> "haskell is useless, it's pure so it can't do any IO so you can't write real programs!" "haskell is pure, but we can do IO (even though a function (a -> b) is pure), by using the top-level 'main'"
18:02:07 <int-e> vanila: Clearly we need more than a single statement (Agda is [not] TC.) to do Agda justice.
18:02:14 <vanila> I thought an coinductive execution trace of a small step interpreter
18:02:22 <vanila> was the same as 'run n steps' of a small step interpreter
18:02:29 <elliott> "agda is useless, it's total so it's not turing complete so you can't write real programs!" "agda is total, but we can do partiality (even though a function (a -> b) is total) by using the top-level 'main'"
18:02:34 <int-e> "Haskell is useless, everything it can express is constant."
18:02:35 <vanila> and you can do that in many non turing complete languages, it's run infinity steps that makes somethin TC
18:02:45 <elliott> vanila: but you can do that
18:02:51 <vanila> im not telling people agda is useless:/
18:02:54 <elliott> you could write an agda "main" that just follows that execution trace
18:03:00 <elliott> printing the output as it goes
18:03:08 <elliott> and it would halt iff the BF program does
18:03:29 <elliott> that module should probably have a main but I don't know how experimental/usable agda's IO stuff is
18:03:48 <elliott> but it's at least possible in theory because agda's IO is analoguous to that Trace
18:04:46 <int-e> Does Agda have something like codata Compute a = Result a | Later (Compute a) with machinery to live functions from base types to that stream type?
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18:05:25 <elliott> I think it has the partiality monad somewhere, yes, maybe not in the stdlib
18:05:29 <elliott> people have definitely written it up though
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18:05:54 <int-e> because then the answer to vanila's complaint becomes, well, if f : N -> N doesn't always terminate, then you can still write f : N -> Compute N.
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18:09:28 <int-e> wow. s/live/lift/ up there
18:09:53 <int-e> (worryingly, a spell checker wouldn't have helped me.)
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19:44:08 <oerjan> int-e: behold my typeable monster
19:46:29 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether the Proxies or the UndecidableInstances are the worst
19:46:49 <oerjan> (https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:33)
19:48:57 * Melvar wonders if he can get cabal-install to only spit out a solution …
19:49:30 <oerjan> Melvar: have you tried -dry-run ?
19:50:00 <oerjan> (possibly with two -s, i never remember)
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19:52:36 <int-e> oerjan: beautiful.
19:53:36 <Melvar> oerjan: Well, that doesn’t look very machine-readable, though I guess it will work, and I think I need to set up a completely empty packageDB somehow for it to tell me everything.
19:54:23 <oerjan> Melvar: well that's as far as my expertise on getting output from cabal-install goes, i'm afraid
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19:57:21 <int-e> oerjan: to be useful you'll also need something like instance (Typeable' (a :: k -> k'), Typeable' (b :: k)) => Typeable' (a b), I think?
19:57:47 <oerjan> int-e: well sure, but that's already in the current implementation afaik
19:58:09 <oerjan> i was just trying to include the basic PoC
20:00:10 <int-e> oerjan: it's just that Kindable will infect that one now. instance (Kindable' (Proxy :: k' -> *), Typeable' (a :: k -> k'), Typeable' (b :: k)) => Typeable' (a b) where
20:00:21 <int-e> oerjan: I thought it'd be harder.
20:01:35 <int-e> oerjan: and the proxies are worst. UndecidableInstances is generally harmless.
20:01:54 <oerjan> yes, i'm just wondering about it infecting everything
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20:03:50 <oerjan> i assume both of the uglinesses would go away if kinds could be instances directly.
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20:07:23 <oerjan> which i vaguely think may be planned to happen as part of richard eisenberg's experiments?
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20:10:28 <oerjan> unless it's already happened, in which case this could be immediately simplified.
20:10:50 <int-e> oerjan: I'm confused: http://lpaste.net/3318663114416717824
20:11:33 <int-e> (ghc's error messages are extremely unhelpful without kinds)
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20:14:04 <oerjan> ah yes, the added Kindable contexts is of course the ugliest part of this.
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20:15:04 <int-e> but as indicated I feel that there's some weakness in the instance checker there...
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20:15:39 <oerjan> this is similar to the final change i had to do to make it compile
20:16:42 <oerjan> int-e: it's actually rather simple. you cannot deduce from Kindable' (Proxy :: (k1 -> k2) -> *) to Kindable' (Proxy :: k -> *) because of the open world assumption; the first instance _could_ come from somewhere else.
20:17:35 <oerjan> i had to change ((k -> *) -> *) to (k -> *) in the context of the Typeable' Proxy instance for similar reasons
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20:19:08 <oerjan> i'm afraid similar stuff is going to make this very annoying to _use_, as well :(
20:20:36 <oerjan> the worst part was that it couldn't deduce Kindable' (Proxy ((k -> *) -> *) in the where clause from Kindable' (Proxy ((k -> *) -> *) in the context
20:21:16 <oerjan> i assume it used instance resolution on the latter _before_ checking if it was in the context, leading to something that wasn't.
20:25:30 <oerjan> <FireFly> they did increase the font size (and other small changes): https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/2tw6pm/reddit_change_changes_to_default_text_styling/ <-- i see the top comment is someone having essentially the same reaction as me. let's hope there's enough backlash.
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20:59:39 <int-e> oerjan: this looks a bit less infectious: http://lpaste.net/1496357053919133696
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21:13:23 * Melvar discovers why idris depends on wai.
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21:25:35 <int-e> oerjan: ok, cleaning up a bit: http://lpaste.net/4263409010180358144
21:31:32 <Melvar> elliott: idris uses cheapskate to parse markdown, and cheapskate has an optional executable that depends on wai, which apparently causes it to be pulled in.
21:31:35 <oerjan> int-e: btw they're planning to make typereps typed, that's what the TTypeRep stuff was about.
21:33:40 <oerjan> int-e: you better post that on the trac thread
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21:39:54 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, I missed the typed typereps.
21:40:17 <int-e> oerjan: anyway, I added to the ticket
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21:43:02 <int-e> oerjan: but anyway this was a great insight from your side, that the kind-level -> can be pattern matched against.
21:46:13 <int-e> oerjan: I would really like TypeRep to be an open GADT ;-) (see http://lpaste.net/110434 for the reason. Of course there's prior art for this.)
21:47:35 <int-e> (Prior art: This is essentially how GRIN (jhc) works, as far as I understand it.)
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22:29:57 <oerjan> every month my cookie for the reddit adserver expires and i get to see that bloody r/sciencefiction ad again
22:31:57 <oerjan> http://static.adzerk.net/Advertisers/f1cd14ed8b3b4dffaadcc42bc8313180.jpg may be it
22:34:02 <elliott> I hear there are browsers that can do ad blocking these days, hth
22:34:32 <oerjan> (it's the only disturbing ad i've seen on reddit)
22:37:03 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1).
22:38:42 <int-e> A disturbed oerjan? My mind boggles!
22:39:19 <mroman> disturbing in what way?
22:41:36 <mroman> http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20130710/640/disturbing_and_revolting_facts_about_the_human_body_640_09.jpg
22:41:57 <mroman> (Don't click on that link if you are easily disturbed)
22:43:01 <mroman> It's just a human head without skin
22:44:29 <mroman> I guess you shouldn't google for open luxation then
22:45:15 <mroman> There's this game where who ever can look at the most disturbing picture wins
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22:47:44 <mroman> oerjan, elliott: Did you watch the Saw movies?
22:50:27 <mroman> Just download them all
22:50:34 <mroman> then watch them all in a marathon
22:50:53 <olsner> or better yet, don't do that
22:52:03 <mroman> Just repeat the procedure until it doesn't disturb you anymore ;)
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22:54:49 <mroman> I think it's called exposition training
23:01:35 <oerjan> sleep, or never sleep again, that's the question
23:02:02 <oerjan> and girl genius is back to late update again
23:02:09 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:02:38 <int-e> well, they still have a couple of hours left of yesterday
23:03:54 <oerjan> more than that if they go by seattle time
23:04:17 <int-e> that was "a couple" as in "a few" rather than "two", hth.
23:05:56 <int-e> in the meantime I'm impressed by whio's handling of that 101 scrabble words data compression task.
23:06:26 <int-e> I expected solutions below 100 bytes. I didn't expect 74.
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23:26:05 <int-e> you don't pay attention for a day and more than 1% of the populace has a new name. Sigh :)
23:27:51 <Eolus> Everyone seems the same on the list?
23:28:41 <int-e> Okay, so it's been two days.
23:30:14 <Eolus> But lilax was here yesterday int-e
23:31:04 <Eolus> But what are you talking about
23:31:13 <int-e> --- Lilax is now known as Eolus <-- that was 2 days ago.
23:32:00 <HackEgo> Eolus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:32:33 <Eolus> Why would you welcome me
23:33:15 <int-e> Well since you pretend not to be Lilax I don't think you've been welcomed before.
23:33:45 <Eolus> please stop calling me lilax :l
23:36:26 <fungot> int-e:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
23:37:00 <int-e> fizzie: that loop is also nice :)
23:37:31 <elliott> the best part is the "nick:."
23:37:34 <elliott> because of the punctuation handling
23:37:38 <int-e> fungot: try this again try this again try this again
23:37:39 <fungot> int-e:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive) x) bug? when i looked at it" and enjoy knowledge, and its kind, but my watch it toast? or decide. fnord 22:11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, ...too much output!
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00:16:54 <fizzie> int-e: The "no not markov" loop is a well-known one.
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00:40:19 <Taneb> Aaaah what are the units of a ring
00:41:23 <Taneb> Ah, one with a multiplicative inverse
00:50:12 <Sgeo> Step-mom just told me I do not need to gain more weight
00:50:57 <Taneb> Sgeo, is your step-mom a medical professional
00:51:18 <Sgeo> Supposedly she is a nutritionist
00:51:42 <Taneb> Well I do not know your situation
00:51:57 <Taneb> I definitely need to gain wait
00:53:28 <Taneb> If only to make my trousers not fall down
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00:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i lost a shitload of weight last summer due to illness, the trouser crisis was almost catastrophic
01:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> don't be sad, i never liked my old trousers all that much anyway
01:01:53 <Taneb> The :( was at least partially at illness
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02:11:50 <elliott> who is still involved with haskell community stuff?
02:12:01 <elliott> what are the "best practices" these days with all this stackage and LTS haskell stuff and so on
02:14:36 <elliott> http://www.stackage.org/lts https://github.com/fpco/lts-haskell#readme don't ask me
02:14:54 <elliott> I just wanna know what tooling everyone uses now :p
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02:18:07 <arjanb> afaik most just continue to suffer with cabal and hackage, and hope it will get fixed sometime in the future...
02:18:18 <elliott> well, there's cabal sandboxes, at least
02:18:25 <elliott> those were nice enough last time I did haskell properly
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02:19:37 <arjanb> and now they are thinking about moving cabal to a Nix style of package management
02:20:11 <elliott> oh, I thought that already happened
02:20:44 <boily> fungot: how do you feel about the PVP?
02:20:44 <fungot> boily:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
02:21:55 <arjanb> see also http://www.well-typed.com/blog/2015/01/how-we-might-abolish-cabal-hell-part-2/
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02:51:14 <Jafet> stackage "versions are hard, who needs them anyway"
02:51:27 <Jafet> Such nosql, very webscale
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02:53:29 <diginet> is "pre-processing" a valid strategy when trying to write a tokenizer? (Inserting spaces, to make it easier to process, for example)
02:59:12 <Jafet> That is normally not necessary, unless your token language is not regular
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04:39:54 <Eolus> I'm pretty sure my job description is just gonna be "Litterally something but Functionally a complete waste of space"
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04:48:20 <Eolus> I also cannot grammar
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08:13:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Taktentus * New user account
08:21:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41731 * Taktentus * (+505) Initial
08:21:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41732&oldid=41731 * Taktentus * (-113) Initial 2
08:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41733&oldid=41732 * Taktentus * (+145) add variables
08:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41734&oldid=41733 * Taktentus * (+56) daa author
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09:16:34 <mroman> Drones impose a security problem
09:17:02 <mroman> Although this could create new jobs
09:17:31 <mroman> "I'm just sitting there all day with my sniper rifle and when a drone enters our air zone I'll shoot it down."
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09:23:09 <mroman> Using drones to smuggle stuff into prisons...
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11:57:12 <Jafet> Sniper drones that hunt drone snipers
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12:07:14 <boily> Jafellot. I'm not sure it's a good idea. poetically sound, but it makes me feel queasy...
12:07:28 <oerjan> now combine this with pizza hut drones and you have an idea for a game.
12:08:18 <boily> hellørjan. are they pizza-hut drones or pizza hut-drones?
12:09:30 <oerjan> the former. they deliver pizza.
12:10:26 <mroman> blsq ) {{1 {2 3} {}} {9} {{{8}}} "huhu" { {1 {2 {3}}}}}FL
12:10:27 <mroman> {1 2 3 9 8 "huhu" 1 2 3}
12:10:45 <mroman> I guess you could steal the pizza from pizza-hut drones with a pizza-stealing drone
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12:11:03 <mroman> A new flood of drone related incidents happened last month!
12:11:14 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure the game wants some actual shooting hth
12:11:37 <mroman> `learn drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in the ancient times.
12:11:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'drone': drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in the ancient times.
12:12:24 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/the //' wisdom/drone
12:12:31 <Jafet> For example, murder.
12:12:44 <mroman> `learn cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
12:12:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'cyberdrone': cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
12:12:51 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
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12:13:13 <mroman> oerjan: what did you sed?
12:13:32 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
12:13:33 <oerjan> mroman: i removed "the " before ancient times hth
12:13:34 <Jafet> Has pizza not been stolen since ancient times?
12:13:40 <lambdabot> *** "pizza" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:13:40 <lambdabot> n 1: Italian open pie made of thin bread dough spread with a
12:13:40 <lambdabot> spiced mixture of e.g. tomato sauce and cheese [syn:
12:14:22 <oerjan> boily: your goal, in this game, is to help pizza hut expand its operations in north pakistan hth
12:14:50 <boily> vanello. about what?
12:14:51 <vanila> i want to compile a language with lambda
12:14:59 <mroman> `run 'echo "How old are you?" > "wisdom"/"drone sex"'
12:14:59 <HackEgo> bash: echo "How old are you?" > "wisdom"/"drone sex": No such file or directory
12:15:04 <vanila> im not sure how to make t efficient enough
12:15:10 <mroman> `run echo "How old are you?" > "wisdom"/"drone sex"
12:15:35 <Jafet> No wonder pizza is eaten everywhere. Open pies know no boundaries.
12:15:39 <mroman> It might include strapping a strap on onto a drone and then...
12:16:51 <mroman> wait.. pizza is a sub-group of pie?
12:17:09 <lambdabot> *** "pie" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:17:10 <lambdabot> n 1: dish baked in pastry-lined pan often with a pastry top
12:17:10 <lambdabot> 2: a prehistoric unrecorded language that was the ancestor of
12:17:10 <lambdabot> all Indo-European languages [syn: {Proto-Indo European},
12:20:02 <oerjan> when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie
12:21:07 <oerjan> vanila: is this language lazy? read up on ye olde stg machine
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12:21:58 <oerjan> the read up on caml i guess
12:22:39 <Jafet> Compile to a language with lambda hth
12:23:44 <mroman> what the hell does Loop do in Burlesque?
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12:26:14 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (LO)!
12:26:39 <mroman> ow... it executes a predicate over every two element as long as the predicate returns true
12:26:52 <vanila> i wonder where i could get help on this?
12:27:05 <mroman> blsq ) {1 2 3 4 -1 2}0{.>}LO
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12:47:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41735 * TomPN * (+2864) Created page with "'''KlingonCode''' is an esoteric programming language invented by Tom Price-Nicholson in 2015. It is based on the Klingon language from Star Trek. Instructions, inputs, output..."
12:48:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41736&oldid=41425 * TomPN * (+111)
12:49:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41737&oldid=41735 * TomPN * (+224)
12:50:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41738&oldid=41737 * TomPN * (+0) /* See also */
12:50:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41739&oldid=41605 * TomPN * (+38) /* See also */
12:50:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41740&oldid=41455 * TomPN * (+38) /* See also */
12:51:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41741&oldid=41706 * TomPN * (+38) /* See also */
12:51:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41742&oldid=41603 * TomPN * (+38) /* See also */
12:51:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41743&oldid=41602 * TomPN * (+38) /* See also */
12:52:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41744&oldid=41739 * TomPN * (+1) /* See also */
12:52:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41745&oldid=41740 * TomPN * (+1) /* See also */
12:53:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41746&oldid=41671 * TomPN * (+18) /* K */
12:54:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41747&oldid=41738 * TomPN * (+8) /* Syntax */
12:54:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41748&oldid=41747 * TomPN * (+1) /* Variables */
12:55:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41749&oldid=41748 * TomPN * (-24) /* Input and output */
12:55:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41750&oldid=41749 * TomPN * (+4) /* Input and output */
12:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41751&oldid=41750 * TomPN * (+2) /* Sums */
12:56:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41752&oldid=41751 * TomPN * (+3) /* Creating a class */
12:56:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41753&oldid=41752 * TomPN * (+0) /* Example programs */
13:00:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41754&oldid=41753 * TomPN * (+345) /* Execution time */
13:02:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41755&oldid=41754 * TomPN * (+190) /* Execution time */
13:02:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41756&oldid=41755 * TomPN * (-190) /* Execution time */
13:08:07 <mroman> http://mroman.ch:8000/reverse.blsq?stdin=hello
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13:29:41 <mroman> Can't happstack give me the list of querystring parameters?
13:32:02 <Taneb> I am stuck on a question of my ring theory assignment
13:32:05 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
13:33:12 <Taneb> "Let D be a finite no-trivial ring with no zero divisors. Prove that D is a ring with identity"
13:33:17 <Taneb> Can someone give me a pointer
13:33:37 <Taneb> And not in the C sense
13:35:44 <mroman> what's a no-trivial ring?
13:36:37 <mroman> a ring with identity is supposed to have q * 1 = q = 1 * q
13:37:12 <mroman> ah. A trivial ring is where 1=0
13:37:36 <Taneb> I meant "non-trivial", and yes
13:40:34 <vanila> If you multiply every number together a*b*c*d*e = x then x is equal to one of those numbers
13:41:00 <mroman> no zero divisors means a*b = 0 doesn't exist, right?
13:41:12 <mroman> so there's no a and no b that would satisfy a*b = 0
13:41:21 <vanila> suppose x = c, then what's a*b*d*e?
13:41:24 <mroman> my discrete math course was some while ago
13:41:28 <jameseb> mroman: yes, if a and b are non-zero
13:45:26 <mroman> if a*b = 0 and b*c = 0
13:46:05 <mroman> then a,b,c are all non zero
13:47:30 <mroman> ok but that's not really insightful
13:47:45 <jameseb> mroman: that's taking it the wrong way round
13:47:54 <mroman> a*b*b*c would be zero as well :(
13:48:01 <Taneb> I think the proof relies on D being finite
13:48:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41757&oldid=41756 * TomPN * (+338) /* Syntax */
13:48:11 <Taneb> So you can sort of multiply right round D and get back to where you started
13:48:51 <Taneb> The question does say "finite"
13:50:10 <vanila> did you get what I said
13:52:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41758&oldid=41757 * TomPN * (-154) /* Execution time */
13:53:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41759&oldid=41758 * TomPN * (-58) /* Syntax */
13:53:59 <jameseb> vanila: I'm not sure what you said shows it's an identity for all elements of the ring
13:57:15 <jameseb> unless you can show it squares to itself and is an identity for it's additive inverse, I think
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13:58:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41760&oldid=41692 * Rottytooth * (+95) /* External resources */ added intro link
14:04:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41761&oldid=41744 * TomPN * (+19) /* See also */
14:04:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41762&oldid=41761 * TomPN * (+0) /* See also */
14:04:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41763&oldid=41762 * TomPN * (+0) /* See also */
14:05:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41764&oldid=41745 * TomPN * (+19) /* See also */
14:05:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41765&oldid=41759 * TomPN * (+19) /* See also */
14:06:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41766&oldid=41763 * TomPN * (+38) /* See also */
14:07:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41767&oldid=41764 * TomPN * (+40) /* See also */
14:07:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41768&oldid=41765 * TomPN * (+21) /* See also */
14:08:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41769&oldid=41768 * TomPN * (+26) /* See also */
14:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41770&oldid=41767 * TomPN * (+26) /* See also */
14:09:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41771&oldid=41766 * TomPN * (+48) /* See also */
14:10:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41772&oldid=41770 * TomPN * (+22) /* See also */
14:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41773&oldid=41769 * TomPN * (+22) /* See also */
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14:33:56 <oerjan> Taneb: find an element a such that a^(n+1) = a. consider (a^n b - b)a for any b.
14:34:43 <oerjan> let's not slip in commutativity here
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14:39:19 * oerjan convinces himself it's not true if you just have a monoid.
14:41:11 <oerjan> if it is true for semigroups that would be a generalization
14:42:06 <oerjan> the First monoid (without Nothing) is a counterexample.
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14:44:02 <oerjan> that depends on noncommutativity to avoid having a zero though.
14:44:51 <oerjan> now, with a semigroup if you have a zero and no "zero divisors" you can just remove the zero and you still have a semigroup
14:47:27 <oerjan> except now the _remainder_ could have another zero.
14:48:21 <oerjan> and zero divisors for that.
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14:51:15 <oerjan> (0,0), (1,1), (1,2) and (2,1) with min as product is a commutative counterexample.
14:51:55 <Taneb> oerjan, can distributivity over + save us?
14:52:19 <oerjan> Taneb: um i'm talking about semigroup case. i already told you how to do it for rings hth
14:52:30 <Taneb> Sorry, I was pretty much asleep
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16:16:10 <tswett> Hmm hmm, Chu spaces. Hmm hmm.
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16:23:33 <Taneb> mroman, Chu stole the invention and all my knowledge of hem
16:25:10 <mroman> It's hard to believe people can just invent spaces.
16:25:29 <coppro> somebody needed to invent the non-breaking space
16:36:35 <tswett> I think I'm going to create an esolang based on "Chu Spaces: A Model of Concurrency".
16:36:46 <tswett> http://i.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/cs/tr/94/1521/CS-TR-94-1521.pdf
16:36:58 <tswett> By, uh... Vineet Gupta.
16:40:31 <tswett> Yes, I'm starting to figure out what this will look like.
16:40:40 <tswett> There will be classes, classes will have attributes...
16:45:03 <tswett> And it's going to be freaky.
16:45:04 <mroman> There should be attributes
16:45:08 <mroman> and attributes have classes
16:45:20 <tswett> Here, let me give you a taste.
16:48:11 <tswett> instream { a; b; instream tail; a excludes b; (tail.a or tail.b) requires (a or b) }
16:51:14 <tswett> Well, there's a space called an instream.
16:51:28 <tswett> An instream consists of three things: an event a, an event b, and an instream tail.
16:51:39 <tswett> "a excludes b" means that it is not possible for both a and b to happen.
16:52:00 <tswett> And then "tail.a or tail.b requires a or b" means that neither tail.a nor tail.b can happen unless a or b happens.
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18:10:30 <int-e> `relcome yermanyTorres
18:10:31 <HackEgo> yermanyTorres: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:02:00 <vanila> http://trixter.oldskool.org/2012/12/17/maze-generation-in-thirteen-bytes/
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19:18:58 <int-e> scasb is such an awful rng.
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19:54:44 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I might use "ring without unit" but never "rng".
19:55:31 <int-e> (Well, not with that meaning. Obviously I'm comfortable with rng meaning "random number generator")
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20:19:16 <J_Arcane> how the fuck does anyone learn microsoft programming languages
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20:28:39 <olsner> J_Arcane: through bing?
20:35:19 <J_Arcane> the MVA videos basically all either expect you to know C# already, or to be barely familiar with the operation of a computer.
20:36:44 <J_Arcane> Quality books seem few and far between and are, of course, all expensive.
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20:39:02 <J_Arcane> there's basically no interactive stuff at all, which always makes me sad.
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20:39:52 <olsner> isn't the whole programming environment interactive?
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20:44:07 <J_Arcane> Not really in a helpful sense like I mean, no.
20:52:01 <zzo38> How useful do units of picohertz become in various circumstances?
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21:02:52 <zzo38> Do you hate "Planeswalker Points"?
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21:24:12 <skj3gg> J_Arcane: I started by learning unity3d scripting tutorials, once I had the basics down, would find tutorials about c# oop and the like.
21:24:50 <skj3gg> I knew a bit of Java (really similar IMO) before which helped too
21:29:06 <MDude> I sually like being able to step through stuff.
21:29:41 <MDude> Since that's very useful for when I make some ridiculous typo that somehow didn't get caught.
21:30:29 <J_Arcane> skj3gg: I started with F# and loved it, but know fuck all about .NET, and most of the templates and guides sorta assume you know C# already.
21:31:21 <J_Arcane> MDude: I really think that, as a model, the Codecademy courses are a great way to learn programming, and I wish more would pick up on it.
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21:39:12 <MDude> I like it, but the actual courses are a bit oddly structured.
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21:40:17 <MDude> They really don't take advantage of the nature of unit testing to let a clever student code ahead with a program that achives the longer term goal as well at the immediate.
21:41:15 <J_Arcane> MDude: That is one thing I liked about CodeWars and the various "koans", is the focus on tests.
21:42:06 <MDude> Breaking it up into smaller lessons is fine, the annoying part is when they tell you to make something structured exactly a certain way
21:42:12 <J_Arcane> HackerRank uses an external test framework that checks through stdio, so it gets a bit tedious with languages that they haven't written the boilerplate I/O routines for yet.
21:42:29 <MDude> and it's obvious they just want to replace all the code with new comments in the next lesson without you noticing how it actually works.
21:44:04 <J_Arcane> MDude: That was something a bit weird in some of them too, yes; like the exercises were compartmentalized to the point where stuff you wrote in one section didn't carry over at all to the next.
21:44:20 <Lymia> MDude, why would you teach like that? ._.
21:44:45 <MDude> I woulnd't, and if I made Codeacademy I'd make it differently.
21:44:58 <J_Arcane> And in the end, the Python guide only gave me the basics, it was going through building a proper application that taught me the rest (for one thing, the CA guide barely goes into OOP).
21:45:09 <MDude> The problem seems to be that lesson author want to be able to put in clarifying comments anywhere in the code, but there's no way to do that.
21:45:16 <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing!
21:45:26 <ais523> this is confirming a few theories of mine
21:45:44 <MDude> Which I guess could be solved by having the text editor itself broken up into sctions somehow.
21:45:50 <J_Arcane> Still, the basic idea of a programmed, interactive, all-in-browser, progress-tracked method like that is quite sound and I'm honestly surprised it's taken so long for someone to get back to it.
21:46:14 <J_Arcane> It's weird that a computer field still seems so married to dead tree when it comes to the learning routine ..
21:46:15 <MDude> What other site is doing it?
21:46:39 <ais523> from address (presumably forged) is an Australian bank
21:46:51 <J_Arcane> MDude: I found one called Programmr (that even has a C# course), and there's the Learn X sites (which are mostly rubbish), and CodeSchool.
21:47:04 <MDude> I do like that idea, yeah. I actully went over to a similar thing that focuses on graphical programs.
21:47:12 <J_Arcane> But really by my remark I meant that the last interactive learning tool like that I saw was for DOS, and before that, bloody PLATO.
21:48:23 <MDude> Oh, here it is. http://www.crunchzilla.com/
21:49:34 <MDude> I guess they don't want to digitize it because coding students would be the best at pirating expensive college-level books?
21:56:17 <J_Arcane> Well, perhaps it's more than the interactive approach would more or less put a whole lot of programming teachers out of their jobs ...
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22:06:03 <zzo38> Best way is learn by the book I think.
22:06:17 <zzo38> And/or to do it by yourself.
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22:42:09 <zzo38> Someone told me that casting pointers to C standard library functions into void* type might not work on some computers but usually it would be OK? A SQLite extension I wrote does this.
22:45:14 <zzo38> On what computers does it fail?
22:49:40 <olsner> iirc some mainframe and/or itanium
22:50:28 <olsner> it depends on if they were talking about the cast to void* or the pointer to library function though
22:50:35 <olsner> some functions are allowed to be macros
22:51:07 <zzo38> The functions I have done the cast with are the math.h functions.
22:52:35 <zzo38> Such as sin, cos, tan, log, exp, sqrt, and so on. SQLite saves them and lets the other function I defined to know the saved value, which is then cast back into the proper type in order to be called, and passes it the parameters given in the SQL code and returns the result to the SQL code.
22:54:18 <zzo38> Are any of those allowed to be macros?
22:54:33 <zzo38> Furthermore would they cause any other problems used in this way?
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22:58:16 <olsner> the math stuff seem to be allowed to be macros, but also required to exist as functions
22:59:09 <zzo38> In that case that part isn't a problem at least.
22:59:20 <zzo38> It works on my computer anyways.
23:00:06 <zzo38> Is this the reason they are required to exist as functions?
23:02:04 <zzo38> It seems like it might be a common thing to do when writing extensions for various programming systems.
23:03:59 <olsner> not sure, but I suspect it's for compatability with things like declaring the function manually without including the header
23:05:25 <zzo38> OK, although that doesn't really seem like something that should normally be done
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23:30:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfork]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41774 * 72.200.146.118 * (+28) Added fork bomb description.
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00:21:48 <Taneb> Woo went to a Haskell meet today
00:23:52 <int-e> How does Woo feel about that?
00:23:56 <fungot> int-e: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking of something. at the fnord door when clouds of the sky, sadly.)) the one that's not conspicuous if they're ah laughter. she heard, oh, hear, or speak
00:25:57 <Taneb> int-e, a friend and I organzed a meetup (mostly him)
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01:08:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41775 * 98.243.16.185 * (+3503) Initial draft
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01:12:15 <tswett2> Now, how do I use this language.
01:12:42 <zzo38> What kind of language did you mean?
01:12:57 <tswett2> Here's the definition of a natural number:
01:13:17 <tswett2> Nat { zero; succ; Nat tail; zero excludes succ; tail.zero or tail.succ requires succ; }
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01:35:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente examples]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41776 * 98.243.16.185 * (+1661) Just a couple of examples
01:35:49 <elliott> couldn't you unify requires and excludes by adding not
01:37:23 <tswett2> Then you'd be able to say "a matches not a" and the universe would explode.
01:38:20 <tswett2> It's currently impossible to disallow the state where no events have fired. Which is desirable, because that's the starting state.
01:39:13 <tswett2> Of course, you could say that "not" is allowed only immediately after the word "excludes". But, of course, that would just be renaming "excludes" to "requires not".
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01:41:01 <elliott> is a excludes b; b excludes a invalid
01:41:39 <tswett2> No, but you're just saying the same thing twice.
01:41:53 <tswett2> You could say "a excludes b; a matches b".
01:42:30 <tswett2> Then neither a nor b could ever fire.
01:42:45 <tswett2> Or you could shortcut and say "a excludes a".
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01:43:32 <tswett2> If you say "a requires b; b requires a", that's just a synonym of "a matches b".
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03:11:47 <zzo38> I have a VCR/DVD combo including counter reset for VCR, but why doesn't it include a zero-return function? If it does have, I cannot seem to find them, at least.
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04:44:53 <oerjan> rng rng rng rng rng rng rng, bananaphn
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05:11:29 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing! <ais523> this is confirming a few theories of mine
05:11:32 <HackEgo> 1231) <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing! <ais523> this is confirming a few
05:11:47 <HackEgo> 1231) <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing! <ais523> this is confirming a few
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05:21:06 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to GeekAfk.
05:21:11 * Sgeo is seriously considering buying an Oculus DK2
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05:43:17 -!- Eolus has set topic: Toilet is clogged again | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:44:07 <Eolus> Although, I was making a data compilition table that self modifies itself when ever it gets a new input
05:44:34 <Eolus> Also they have a BASIC programmer on the nintendo store now
05:44:47 -!- oerjan has set topic: Try a bucket of hot water hth | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:44:50 <Eolus> So like if you like that there basic
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05:46:07 <Eolus> Looking through logs by clicking is very time consuming
05:46:37 <Eolus> Is there some way I can just list it all at once
05:47:09 <oerjan> there might be a way to download them
05:48:19 <oerjan> if it's old you might try googling it
05:48:33 <zzo38> I think I have read that it isn't really quite BASIC but is rather something a bit similar.
05:48:43 <zzo38> It is a new kind of BASIC programming language.
05:49:16 <zzo38> I think the BASIC for Nintendo 3DS is Smile BASIC
05:49:20 <Eolus> I've been testing out
05:49:40 <Eolus> that was a semi-pun
05:49:41 * oerjan bites the hand that pats him
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05:52:58 <MDream> There's also a level editor for WiiU.
05:54:01 <Eolus> As I was doing its very Smoothe in my opinion.
05:54:01 <MDream> I dunno how extensive it'll let you design stuff, but based on that and SMile BASIC I guess WarioWare DIY didn't actually sell as poorly as I thought.
05:54:26 <Eolus> You can make animations and games and such
05:54:40 <Eolus> Save porting from PC I think
05:54:58 <Eolus> That's what the info said when I bought ot
05:55:41 <MDream> Is there even a way to directly connect a 3DS to a home comptuer?
05:55:58 <MDream> I tried swapping out the SD card, but my comptuer wasn't finding the pictured on it.
05:55:59 <zzo38> You can use QR codes
05:56:04 <Eolus> You have to use a bullshit connector
05:56:17 <zzo38> For Smile BASIC anyways, you can transfer to/from other computer using QR codes.
05:56:17 <MDream> There's alreay wifi right there.
05:56:43 <Eolus> god qr codes are so hard for me to line up
05:56:50 <MDream> But how do I read a WR code from a desktop?
05:57:18 <zzo38> Use a webcam or scanner
05:57:51 <zzo38> There are programs that can read barcodes in this way, not only QR code but also Codabar and other formats
05:57:53 <MDream> I would inquire further if I was not getting super tired.
05:58:36 <Eolus> either one is Almost socially Ok
05:58:55 <MDream> I'll stick to having chocolate like a small child.
05:59:08 <oerjan> for once, darths and droids _didn't_ subvert the comic readers' expectations. except those who assumed it would. which sort of included me.
05:59:10 <Eolus> Cherry peptobismal cake
05:59:29 <Eolus> And give it to someone
06:15:41 <Eolus> So, oerjan what do you do for a living
06:16:02 <Eolus> All of my questions are copyrighTed btw
06:32:19 <oerjan> "In the article, Hall pointed out that because he had control over the way the game progressed, playing on the psychology of the contestant, the theoretical solution did not apply to the show's actual gameplay." <-- I KNEW IT
06:32:53 <oerjan> Eolus: disability pension hth
06:42:02 <Eolus> How do you know about that?!
06:42:28 <oerjan> um the monty hall problem is old
06:42:40 <oerjan> therefore i know about it QED
06:43:42 <oerjan> also i looked up monty hall because of the new comic on mezzacotta http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/about.php
06:44:24 <oerjan> afaik this is the first comic on mezzacotta whic david morgan-mar explicitly _isn't_ an author of...
06:44:46 <Eolus> what does qed mean
06:44:57 <oerjan> quod erat demonstrandum hth
06:45:23 <Eolus> why did you day disability person hth
06:45:27 <oerjan> (it means the proof is complete)
06:45:46 <oerjan> your sentence is no grammar twh
06:45:55 <Eolus> 1:32:53 AM <oerjan> Eolus: disability pension hth
06:46:10 <Eolus> Why did you say that
06:46:12 <oerjan> you asked me what i did for a living.
06:46:31 <oerjan> ...don't you know the meaning of any words
06:46:49 <oerjan> the answer, obviously, is "nothing".
06:47:00 <Eolus> I'm so sorry for you
06:47:28 <Eolus> How do you get by?
06:48:13 <Eolus> Thought it said person
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06:48:19 <Eolus> Don't you yell at me!
06:48:36 <oerjan> don't worry about my yelling until i say O KAY
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06:49:14 <Eolus> You get a disability pension for being old?
06:49:31 <Eolus> How do you apply for said pension
06:49:48 <Eolus> I'm disabled Elliott and you know it
06:49:58 <oerjan> you fill out a form, and get a doctor to send a recommendation.
06:50:09 <Eolus> What type of doctor
06:50:20 <elliott> Eolus: you probably don't live in norway like oerjan, though :P
06:50:22 <oerjan> that's how it works in norway, don't know about where you are.
06:50:52 <Eolus> and disabled people are swept under the rug of poverty
06:52:11 <Eolus> how ill are you oerjan
06:52:50 <Eolus> Arthritic and going blind
06:52:57 <Eolus> sounds bout' right
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06:53:18 <oerjan> i don't think i'm arthritic, although i am worrying about my eyes
06:54:02 <Eolus> your cornea and iris are probably all old and dirty
06:54:38 <Eolus> you aren't _that_ young.
06:54:53 <Eolus> Why do you quote with _
06:55:04 <oerjan> besides, you are mostly way off track on your guesses.
06:55:10 <Eolus> ._________________________.
06:55:21 <oerjan> Eolus: it's traditional italics replacement on irc.
06:55:33 <oerjan> my client even underlines it
06:55:55 <Eolus> well I don't remember your age oerjan, Lilax does tho
06:56:40 * Eolus slams hands onto the table
06:56:56 <oerjan> i'm not a complete idiot who can be convinced of _anything_ silly.
06:57:33 <Eolus> Listen here buddy! If someone calls me by another alters name I'm gonna flip shit
06:59:42 <oerjan> your personality is too distinct to fool us i'm afraid.
07:00:20 <Eolus> No me and eolus are very similiar
07:00:33 <Eolus> I'm just restraining myself
07:00:45 <Eolus> Cuz I'm actually am a very terrible person
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07:01:39 <Quin> so oe is just a thing for ø or œ?
07:03:33 <Quin> You see, Lilax and Dulnes told me to be on my best behaviour here since they said you guys are very persnickety about things and manners
07:03:35 <oerjan> it's my unixy username and at least back when i first got it only ascii was supported.
07:06:47 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSchool.
07:07:09 <b_jonas> that's not even a real letter. it's French.
07:07:20 <elliott> the œ ligature is used on english sometimes
07:07:35 <Quin> how do you pronounce it
07:07:47 <b_jonas> elliott: there's a funnier one
07:08:31 <Quin> And that would bE?
07:08:51 <b_jonas> (I hope I spelled that right)
07:08:55 <elliott> I've never heard that word even without the oe
07:10:05 <b_jonas> normal people either don't use that word, and write it as pharmacopoeia if they must. but some books like crazy words like this
07:10:11 <b_jonas> and use the fancy spelling just to show they can.
07:10:42 <Quin> all my teachers hate me when I front
07:10:54 <Quin> I write all my essays in .2 wingdings
07:11:24 <Quin> Mm wingdings sounds like a good food object
07:13:18 <Quin> b_jonas: is your grandma a necromancer?
07:13:49 <b_jonas> Quin: hmm… that would explain some things. but no, I don't think so
07:14:01 <b_jonas> if she is, she keeps it very secret.
07:14:12 <Quin> In her book of skin
07:16:49 <b_jonas> `8-ball is your grandma a necromancer?
07:16:59 <Quin> I just got really angry for no reason lol
07:17:12 <b_jonas> Quin: that means she's cast a spell to shield herself from divination
07:17:20 <Quin> I'm calm now but I think I'm bleeding.
07:17:36 <Quin> wait maybe HackEgo isn't powerful enough
07:18:45 <b_jonas> HackEgo, what's your spell level?
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07:18:56 <b_jonas> fungot, what's HackEgo's spell level?
07:18:56 <fungot> b_jonas: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there could be this consensus, for " 3" does not mean radio or remote and snowy rim, like the serrated edge, and it is eta. f
07:18:58 <Quin> or maybe she's getting help from oerjan who's actually a dark wizars
07:19:29 <b_jonas> Quin: no way. dark wizards can't be haskellers, can they?
07:19:41 <Quin> They have the powers
07:20:16 <Quin> Its obvious he's been using the oculous to divinate haskell processes
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07:31:16 <Quin> So what do we talk about
07:32:04 -!- Quin has set topic: Coding and stuff y'know esoteric Ya| https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
07:33:35 <Quin> ^8ball is oerjan a dark wizard
07:33:49 <Quin> I fkn knew it!
07:34:35 <b_jonas> `8-ball fungot's 8-ball doesn't work properly, right?
07:34:35 <fungot> b_jonas: and, dab, words like pop-culture should i have fizzie do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
07:34:36 <HackEgo> Concentrate and ask again.
07:34:56 <b_jonas> fungot: white or black queen?
07:34:56 <fungot> b_jonas: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
07:35:09 <Quin> ^8ball is b_jonas's grandmother a necromancer that is co consipirator of the pancake factory that oerjan runs
07:35:31 <b_jonas> you could have just asked me
07:35:43 <elliott> a pancake factory isn't much of a conspiracy, is it?
07:35:52 <elliott> I mean. it's jsut pancakes
07:35:59 <Quin> if its run by dark wizards
07:36:03 <Quin> Who know haskell
07:36:27 <b_jonas> maybe they use banana-filled pancakes, and the pancakes are the lenses?
07:36:53 <b_jonas> no wait, the pancakes are the envelopes, right
07:37:07 <Quin> take your favorite programming langauge now imagine their flavour
07:38:35 <Quin> Python tastes like watermelons
07:41:24 <Quin> This went terribly, No one ever talks in here -///+
07:43:37 * elliott resists the temptation to say that haskell tastes like burritos
07:46:10 <Quin> hold out your hands for a present
07:52:24 <oerjan> blood pancakes exist. you have been warned.
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07:55:07 <oerjan> obviously that's also what malbolge tastes like.
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07:58:22 <oerjan> brainfuck derivatives taste like artificial vanila & sugar
07:59:04 <elliott> ...what does brainfuck itself taste like, then?
07:59:20 <oerjan> genuine vanilla waffles
08:03:37 <oerjan> C tastes like turkey without stuffing.
08:03:57 <oerjan> C++ tastes like a whole roasted camel filled with a roaste turkey filled with a duck.
08:04:29 <oerjan> and you can never eat it all.
08:07:29 <elliott> how does syntactic sugar fit in
08:08:28 <oerjan> that's actually the ketchup hth
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08:17:00 <b_jonas> C tastes like chicken with no spices, C++ tastes like chicken spiced deliciously
08:17:12 <b_jonas> they have the same underlying meat, but C++ is prepared much better
08:18:01 <b_jonas> (unless you compile with the MSVC compiler, when they actually have almost no meat and made of canned soy beans)
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08:22:12 <Quin> you guys are goin at it
08:23:06 <elliott> the lambda calculus tastes like a pure nutrition cube with a slightly unpalatable flavour?
08:23:27 <elliott> I guess that's why they call it the lambda cube
08:24:14 <oerjan> a bouillon cube, me thinks
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08:24:27 <b_jonas> elliott: no, lambda calculus tastes like butter
08:24:40 <oerjan> i think b_jonas is being contrary
08:24:57 <b_jonas> pure fat, very powerful but harder to use directly than carbohydrates, and you don't want to eat it alone
08:25:04 <b_jonas> but it's great as flavoring
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08:26:15 <oerjan> in that case, haskell tastes like bacon hth
08:26:35 <oerjan> well that's the report version
08:26:47 <oerjan> god knows what extra is in ghc
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13:44:26 <ais523> oh well, I submitted my thesis
13:44:30 <ais523> so now I have more free time
13:44:52 <ais523> I'll link it here once a final version comes out (this is just the initial version, there'll be back-and-forth with examiners and so on before then)
13:45:01 <ais523> probably it shouldn't be online before then because it might confuse the plagiarism checker
13:46:55 <zemhill_> mroman: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
13:46:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:47:09 <lambdabot> Local time for mroman is Fri Jan 30 14:47:05 2015
13:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41777&oldid=41773 * TomPN * (+401) /* Syntax */
13:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41778&oldid=41422 * TomPN * (+341)
13:55:32 <Taneb> ais523, congrats on thesis
14:00:58 <ais523> mroman: not online yet
14:01:14 <ais523> won't be until it actually gets accepted, which will be months even if the examiners want no revisions
14:01:17 <ais523> and they almost always want revisions
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14:09:02 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/doc.pdf
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14:12:58 <paul2520> mroman: I can't read more than the abstract, but fromw what I can understand it looks interesting. The graphs intrigue me. Nice work and congrats on this milestone in ypur education
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14:18:54 <mroman> paul2520: It essentially just proves that you can divide a map into zones and simulate them in parallel and reduce the simulation time despite the overhead of every zone having to communicate with surrounding zones
14:19:04 <mroman> which isn't that surprising :)
14:19:28 <mroman> but by using an actor modell you can distribute zones in the network of computers
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14:20:07 <mroman> because some zones might be more crowded than others so it makes sense to distribute the responsibilites for simulating zones depending on each individual node's load
14:20:46 <mroman> and you should switch algorithms when crowds get more dense
14:21:21 <mroman> and you should cache routes
14:21:32 <mroman> because path finding in a graph with thousands of edges is really not very fast
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14:23:44 <mroman> even if your pathfinding is fast
14:24:14 <mroman> if you have 50k persons and each pathfinding for a person takes 0.01s you're going to have a fucking slow simulation
14:24:34 <mroman> because then just path finding alone would take 500s for a single step
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14:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (though a shocking amount of DF's CPU load comes from the horrendously-optimised temperature simulation)
14:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, DF is slow because a) it does pathfinding for hundreds of entities at once, b) on a single core
14:28:01 <mroman> We distributed path finding to cores
14:28:14 <mroman> That wouldn't help for 50k :)
14:28:33 <mroman> it's still too slow for near-real time
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15:07:53 <oren> |= doesn't make any sense
15:09:32 <oren> how come we use the same stupid operator to mean "assignment of symbols makes set of expressions true" and "expressions can be derived from expressions"
15:10:21 <oren> and why the hell is it "entails" in my course but "\models" in TeX?
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15:19:56 <coppro> oren: |- is used for the latter, no? or am I misunderstanding something
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15:23:14 <oren> coppro: I have seen that operator, but not in this course. /Apparently/, A |= B where A and B are formulas, means that forall interpretations I, (I |= A) => (I |= B)
15:24:11 <b_jonas> A |= B is like (A = A | B) except that the expression A is evaluated only once
15:24:41 <coppro> oren: ah, ok. That is then slightly different from |-
15:25:01 <coppro> |- means "proves", which is not necessarily the same, because it's constrained by the axioms of proof in the logic system you have
15:25:38 <coppro> if the logic is complete (propositional logic is!), then they coincide
15:25:53 <coppro> oren: also I don't find that too misleading
15:25:56 <oren> Ah. I still think it is half-assed for the same operator to mean different things based on type of operands
15:26:35 <coppro> this stuff happens all the time; live with it!
15:26:36 <oren> coppro: I don't see how those are examples.
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15:27:40 <coppro> oren: + means, variously, a group operation, ring addition, or any number of special cases of those
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15:28:09 <coppro> \cdot can mean a group operation, ring multiplication, or in certain cases a non-associative product (e.g. octonions)
15:28:12 <oren> coppro: true, but not within the same language
15:28:31 <coppro> \times can mean both Cartesian product and cross product, and I've seen those two used close together
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15:29:25 <coppro> oren: and these two meanings aren't that fundamentally different
15:29:54 <coppro> they're still saying "thing on left satisfies thing on right", except when it's a set of formulas, it's being used as a shorthand for "all things entailing this"
15:30:06 <coppro> it's sort of akin to f(S) for a function f and set S
15:30:18 <coppro> to mean { f(s) : s \in S }
15:30:38 <oren> coppro: people do that!?!?? what is the world coming to
15:31:02 <coppro> oren: it's a convenient shorthand and rarely ambiguous
15:32:43 <oren> Well, sure, but what happens when S is a set of sets?
15:32:56 <oren> and f is a function from sets to sets
15:33:12 <coppro> then you don't use that notation
15:33:53 <coppro> you either right the specification out directly, or invent some other notation like \mathcal P(f)(S), which is *also* an abuse of notation, but again not very ambiguous
15:34:12 <coppro> or f^{\mathcal P}(S) or something
15:34:26 <coppro> The point of notation is usually to be clear, not to be excessively precise
15:34:32 <oren> and thus, all math papers have to have a lot of english text explaining what the hell this particular mathematician means
15:34:32 <coppro> if you need excessive precision, you can use it
15:34:58 <coppro> there are too many different concepts in mathematics to invent a different notation for each of them
15:35:11 <coppro> I'm making an effort not to overload relation operators (like \le) in my thesis, and it's a pain and a half
15:35:38 <coppro> since I'm talking about a *lot* of relations, the result is that I have lots of fun ones
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15:48:26 <oren> It would be easier if math syntax allowed multi-letter names. But noooo... someone had to use the null operator for multiplication....
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15:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> multi-letter names are common when you're not working with numerical algebra
15:57:14 <oren> I remember using russian letters, and then katakana, on a long proof.
15:57:51 <mroman> you've used up a-z all russian letters?
15:58:20 <oren> mroman: all the ones that don't look too much like roman or greek letters
15:59:03 <oren> I was able to shorten the proof a ton once I finished it
15:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <coppro> oren: + means, variously, a group operation, ring addition, or any number of special cases of those
15:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> not a great example, since it's an abelian group operation in both cases
16:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> + is pretty regular, the only hangup is that it's sometimes restricted to domains on which it's not invertible
16:00:26 <jameseb> oren: A friend of mine used zhe in an exam once when he ran out of Latin and Greek letters
16:00:29 <oren> a good example is that damn \supset operator which is being so grievously abused in my textbook
16:01:21 <oren> Apparently now superset means implies
16:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> worst notation i saw in a book was a book of topology that used ]a,b[ to indicate an open interval
16:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it also defined everything with a commutative diagram and a universal property
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16:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> this was meant to be an introductory text, and it defined product and quotient that way
16:04:06 <Phantom_Hoover> thankfully i eventually found a phd student with a spare copy of hatcher
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16:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, interestingly i'd seen it before at school when they were mentioning different notations
16:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> but with a distinct air of 'if you find someone stupid enough to actually do this, run'
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16:08:03 <jameseb> I've seen \sqsupset used for implication but that makes sense when using implication as a definition of refinement
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16:30:59 <oren> I can't look at sqsupset without thinking 'ko'.
16:31:25 <coppro> oren: now I'll never be able to either
16:31:29 <coppro> also thanks for teaching me a katakana
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16:57:30 <mroman> oren: have you tried different font-sizes
16:57:38 <mroman> a with 12pt is another variable than a with 15pt
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17:03:48 <Jafet> \sqsupset is fun because people can't agree on whether it means refinement or abstraction.
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18:22:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:My Unreliable Past]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41779&oldid=41061 * 168.99.197.15 * (+348) /* Fix for Hello World? */ new section
18:32:19 <paul2520> ais523: My Unreliable Past sounds interesting. on this and a number of pages at esolangs.org, there isn't information about downloading interpreters/compilers. Is this intentional?
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18:36:26 <zzo38> In some cases no interpreters/compilers currently exist.
18:36:51 <zzo38> (You are free to write one if you want to.)
18:37:07 <zzo38> In some other cases, writing a interpreter/compiler is impossible.
18:52:44 <paul2520> well that's fun, though. that you can have written a language, but not necessarily gone through all the steps of writing an interpreter
18:52:57 <paul2520> to that end, I've written a language or two...
18:53:34 <oren> I've written an interpreter without having a langugae
18:54:03 <Taneb> I've written languages then other people have written interpreters then I've gone back and written my own interpreter
18:54:31 <oren> The interpreter has everything except a parser.
18:58:45 <oren> Imagine a parse tree structure where each node is of the form (f,N) where f is a function mapping a list of nodes to a single node
18:58:55 <oren> and N is a list of nodes.
18:59:48 <oren> Then the interpreter can be written without reference to um, anything
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19:18:57 <oren> Maybe it would be easier towrite programs with an editor that worked directly on parse trees
19:19:25 <MDude> That could be cool.
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19:23:31 <oren> Right now we have auto bracket matching, auto-correction and tab-completion, and various even fancier IDE features. For a language like lisp, it shouldn't be that hard to parse it into a tree upon loading the IDE, use certain keys for manipulating the tree, and then deparse it into a file upon saving.
19:24:00 <oren> is there a word for deparsing?
19:24:54 <MDude> In thise case I'd use "serializing".
19:25:47 <oren> yeah. we serialize the parse tree into the unnatural flat form that for hysterical reasons we usually edit directly
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19:57:08 <fizzie> There's a name for that.
19:57:27 <fizzie> Structural editing or some-such.
19:58:01 <Deewiant> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~nwatson/pa70/
19:58:04 <fizzie> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_editor
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20:11:11 <elliott> ais523: congratulations!!!
20:11:52 <oerjan> ais523: congratulations!!!!
20:12:32 <oerjan> gah the whole world is extra noisy today
20:16:39 * oren looks through logs
20:17:01 <oren> Oh, you finished your thesis. omodetou
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20:31:19 <oren> But if we aren't going to serialize it into a readable form, and instead only edit an abstract structure using an esoteric editor, then there's no reason a language's structure has to be embeddable in 2 dimensions.
20:35:38 <b_jonas> oren: well, I prefer plain text as code because then I can use whatever editor I prefer for writing and whatever text viewer I prefer for reading
20:36:14 <b_jonas> and plain text is exactly what C++ and most other languages do these days, unlike the crazy old languages like basic or smalltalk that come with a fixed ide
20:36:28 <b_jonas> (of course, these days those have plain text variants too)
20:37:08 <zzo38> And also ColorForth
20:37:34 <zzo38> But yes I also like plain text as code because then you use whatever editor you want, program to view, or to print out on a paper, etc
20:37:56 <zzo38> And you can use it with filters and other programs, such as AWK
20:38:28 <MDude> Well the code would be saved as text.
20:39:03 <zzo38> GWBASIC did not save the program as text unless you specifically told it to do so, however.
20:40:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, back in the basic and APL days the way the ide worked was that you ran line commands from the screen buffer (seriously), or you could give simple commands to change a line of the stored program or to load a line to the screen buffer
20:40:24 <zzo38> Yes, I know that I worked with GWBASIC and that stuff.
20:40:35 <b_jonas> but those languages (basic and APL) would then get adapted to proper unixy plain text file based variants, just like smalltalk
20:41:14 <zzo38> Forth also allows executing commands directly from the screen buffer. While you can define subroutines in this way too, usually you should use a block editor for this purpose instead.
20:41:36 <b_jonas> besides GWBASIC, the Commodore 64 basic also works like that, as well as some other home computers from that era
20:41:55 <b_jonas> (but not all home computer basics)
20:42:06 <zzo38> Yes I know possibly most do
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20:44:05 <oren> But code inherently has a lot of structure. Is there any particular reason why that structure should be easily serializable to a one-dimensional stream of characters?
20:44:55 <zzo38> Mainly to make it portable.
20:46:04 <b_jonas> oren: one-dimensional stream turned out to be versatile enough for it. most languages use identifiers made from sequence of letters such that identical identifiers may refer to the same node, and that way you can have any graph-like structure.
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20:46:47 <b_jonas> oren: the text editors let you search for occurrances of those identifiers, that way you can traverse the graph structure.
20:48:25 <b_jonas> (this basic idea is very old, it's present in fortran and maybe even in assemblers)
20:48:45 <b_jonas> (it used to be called "symbols" instead of identifiers)
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21:08:40 <fizzie> Sometimes when I get these highly specific spams (cf. http://sprunge.us/BZTF for example) I have to wonder if they actually get any takers.
21:09:08 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:09:31 <fizzie> There was at least one selling something related to concrete, and someone producing some nylon wire thing.
21:11:55 <skj3gg> fizzie: how do you even tell thats spam?
21:12:16 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
21:13:15 <skj3gg> fizzie: i mean, that custom synthesis service sounds pretty nice.
21:14:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:16:12 <fizzie> 2. spam, junk e-mail -- (unwanted e-mail (usually of a commercial nature sent out in bulk))
21:16:13 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
21:16:19 <fizzie> I didn't want it, so it's spam.
21:16:57 <fizzie> It's also of commercial nature, and I think it's pretty likely it was sent out in bulk, though I guess it's possible they targeted me specifically.
21:17:46 <skj3gg> fizzie: i guess, but did you at least update you their stock?
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21:32:32 <oren> I have personally ordered stuff from Chinese companies like that. I paid $100 They sent it to me with a label saying it was a gift worth $5.
21:33:44 <oren> The most recent thing I ordered was a movie-playing glasses thing
21:34:39 <oren> If you order their chemicals, they will probably label it as a soft drink
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21:41:33 <dtscode> hey int-e you wrote lambdabot right?
21:42:12 <oerjan> i don't think int-e is online at the moment
21:42:35 <oerjan> he didn't write it, he is the current maintainer though. it's more than a decade old.
21:42:56 <dtscode> is there a place to get the source?
21:43:14 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:43:23 <lambdabot> http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Lambdabot
21:45:03 <oerjan> int-e: is http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/ (linked from the wiki) even current?
21:45:19 <int-e> oerjan: no, of course not.
21:45:23 <lambdabot> git clone git://github.com/int-e/lambdabot.git
21:45:53 <oerjan> if the wiki weren't in a state of movement i would edit that
21:46:10 <int-e> oerjan: I'm not going to answer your #9858 comment on the ticket, but you're right. I consciously modelled my code after goldfire's idea of tracking kind arguments explicitely, while limiting myself to code that ghc would accept right now.
21:47:10 <oerjan> int-e: i was going to ask you, _is_ there a way to make classes and/or type families take kind-only arguments yet? it would clean it up a lot.
21:47:24 <int-e> dtscode: hmm, not exactly. The basic recipe is cabal sandbox init; cabal install lambdabot*/ but you'll run into a few known dependency issues that I'll fix when ghc-7.10 is released.
21:47:50 <dtscode> ah ok. i might just add the @tell feature into my bot then
21:48:02 <int-e> oerjan: I don't think so, but I'm not the right person to ask. In my attempts I got "non-promotable foo" errors.
21:48:42 <oerjan> i suspect there would be trouble with -> for types and kinds not being the same thing
21:49:07 <oerjan> but also that it might not support using the same variable in a type and kind position at all
21:49:26 <int-e> oerjan: ask goldfire.
21:49:41 <int-e> oerjan: he's on #ghc
21:51:31 <dtscode> did my message tgo through before my laptop shut off?
21:52:15 <oerjan> <dtscode> ah ok. i might just add the @tell feature into my bot then <-- your last message
21:53:07 <int-e> FWIW, I usually check the logs to answer such questions.
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21:58:16 <oerjan> i was imagining if kinds and types were more alike, we'd just have instance Typeable k => Typeable (Proxy :: k -> *) where ...
21:59:19 <elliott> GHC really needs to just become a PTS or something
22:00:23 <oerjan> elliott: richard eisenberg (goldfire) is working on something like that
22:00:56 <oerjan> with pi types, not sure if that's the same kind, but it's something dependent, anyway
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22:01:47 <elliott> oerjan: pure type systems sorta unify types/kinds/etc.
22:03:04 <elliott> oerjan: (well, they can, anyway.)
22:03:56 <oren> is a kind a type of type?
22:04:35 <oren> ok that'sreasonable
22:05:16 <oren> but how can you unify types with kinds without unifying types with values?
22:08:10 <oren> if something is a kind, presumably you can test whether a type is of that kind. If something is a type, presumably you can test whether a value is of that type.
22:08:27 <elliott> lambda calculus type systems don't generally work like that, no
22:08:39 <elliott> if you mean internally to the language
22:09:37 <oren> Uh, I mean in code. if(T isa K) and if(V isa T)
22:09:44 <b_jonas> um, this is a static type system, not a dynamic one
22:10:23 <oren> Ok then, let T bea K, let V bea T same problem
22:10:56 <elliott> you're not making any sense in context, sorry
22:12:15 <oren> The point is, if you have a structure which relates a type T to a value V, then if T is a kind, then V is a type.
22:13:01 <oren> So a typeoftype can't be a type unless a type is a value
22:13:27 <elliott> you're not making any sense in context, sorry
22:13:54 <oren> you said a kind is a type of type. presumably a type is a type of value.
22:14:30 <Melvar> Generally, if you have kinds in the first place, they’re formally not types.
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22:14:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pop-corn: not found
22:14:58 <Melvar> They just relate to types in a way that is intuitively similar to the way types relate to values.
22:15:31 <oren> right. So if you can instantiate a type as a value, then ypou can instantiate a kind as a type, correct?
22:17:45 <Melvar> Not sure what “instantiate” means here.
22:18:21 <oren> Then the problem I have is that if the syntax is formulated in a way that distinguishes values from types, then making kinds types, makes types values
22:20:57 <oerjan> oren: anyway, in the system that is being envisioned for future haskell, any value can be turned into a type and any type into a kind, but not always any type into a value.
22:21:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure about from kind to type.
22:21:35 <oren> So formally "hello" is a kind?
22:21:55 <MDude> It can be kind to ssy.
22:22:16 <oerjan> oren: "hello" is already a type in ghc haskell (not quite the same as a "promoted" string, though)
22:22:46 <oren> oh god damn it
22:22:59 <oren> what wouldy that even mean
22:23:49 <oren> A type without any values?
22:24:06 <oerjan> oren: it means that you can have a literal string as a type parameter, which is useful for e.g. making a typeclass that tells whether a type has a field of a given name. which is also being implemented.
22:24:34 <oerjan> oren: only types of kind * have values.
22:24:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's what "hello" as a type means. that makes sense. but what would "hello" as a kind mean?
22:25:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: i dunno, i've just heard all types will also be kinds.
22:25:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, that sounds scary
22:25:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: isn't it only all types of kind * that will be kinds?
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22:25:53 <b_jonas> so the "hello" type wouldn't be so becuase it's of kind String
22:26:02 <oren> That sort of makes sense.
22:26:43 <Melvar> Idris has many empty types – they correspond to false propositions.
22:26:52 <oren> I thought of one other way to do it, and that is that "hello" promotes to the type String
22:27:02 <b_jonas> Melvar: well sure, Haskell already has many empty types too
22:27:18 <oren> But that seems useless
22:27:21 <b_jonas> you can define a new one like data MyNewEmptyType where {};
22:28:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok maybe it's only types of kind *
22:28:18 <b_jonas> I mean, even that is scary, but less so
22:28:24 <oerjan> the others would be kinds with no types in them, otherwise.
22:28:47 <oerjan> also istr it will bottom out by making the kind of all kinds *
22:29:05 <oerjan> (and that as a result this system is not consistent as a logic)
22:29:40 <Melvar> What, no infinite hierarchy?
22:30:20 <oren> I pictured it as a loerarchy
22:30:25 <oerjan> indeed. i fully expect something to come up later that forces them to make it infinite, though :P it would be typical haskell.
22:31:44 <Melvar> oren: From The Screwtape Letters?
22:31:54 <oerjan> (it's still supposed to be _type_ safe, though.)
22:33:15 <b_jonas> how infinite? one level for every ordinal? or only up to 20, and up to any natural if you use the epic rules?
22:34:00 <oerjan> b_jonas: is that a d&d reference?
22:34:14 <oren> Melvar: I heard the word loerarchy in real life somewhere, since I wasn't sure how to spell it
22:35:16 <b_jonas> oren: is that like an upside down hierarchy? or would that be liearaclo?
22:35:20 <oerjan> all i know about "epic" i learned from oots
22:35:48 <oren> b_jonas: yeah, like a set of things where the lowest one is the most powerful
22:36:48 <oren> So for example the letter grade system is a loerarchy
22:36:56 <Melvar> oren: In The Screwtape Letters it’s “Lowerarchy” I believe, but it’s really just a pun. “hieros” means sacred or holy, it’s not related to “high”.
22:37:55 <oren> although sometimes S is better than A
22:38:56 <Melvar> Wiktionary actually has an entry for “lowerarchy”.
22:38:58 <oerjan> back in the norwegian equivalent of junior high school, S was the best character. no A though.
22:40:53 <oren> In canada it is ABCDF (they took out E), and in many videogames it's SABC
22:40:54 <oerjan> g/G for no:godt = en:good, and the prefixes mean especially, very, ..., fairly, little
22:41:40 <oerjan> where little is actually an adverb so i'm not sure what it's in english
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22:43:33 <oerjan> the senior high school used to be 1-6, 6 best. the university used to be 1-6, 1 best. but i think at least one of them has changed to an A-F system.
22:43:50 <oerjan> (also the university had decimal points)
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22:45:43 <Melvar> In Germany, 1 is always the best of 1-6. However, systems differ in which intermediate grades are used.
22:45:56 <oerjan> and the before-high-school classes had no real grades, although there was a report card with either "satisfactory" or "may improve"
22:46:50 <oren> In my public schoolthey had excellent, satisfactory and needs improvement
22:48:06 <oren> I think they do that to try to discourage competition
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22:49:11 <oerjan> pretty sure there was no excellent, and given the general views of the time they almost certainly wanted to discourage competition.
22:49:47 <oerjan> my public school teacher was an honest-to-atheism communist btw.
22:50:08 <oerjan> although to fair, i only realized that about the last year.
22:50:42 <oerjan> (the main teacher for our class, that is)
22:51:21 <oren> lol. in Canada that's the norm
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22:52:27 <oren> teachers in high school are a left-wing demographic in a left-wing country
22:52:56 <oerjan> it's the norm in norway that teachers are left-wing, but there's still a couple steps until communism.
22:53:27 <oerjan> and of course there are exceptions.
22:54:54 <oren> Yeah, i guess... although I find that communism isn't really considered to be the epitome of left-wing anymore
22:56:05 <oerjan> there's the labor party which is only partly leftish these days, then there's the party named "socialist left" which has dropped mentions of revolution quite a while ago, and was in the last government. then there is the party simply named "red", which has no representatives but has had one before.
22:56:41 <oerjan> and then there is the "norwegian communist party", if it still exists, i'm not quite sure.
22:57:25 <oren> In canada we have the canadian communist party which is completely irrelevant.
22:58:25 <oerjan> the norwegian one is also completely irrelevant.
22:58:26 <oren> they have 'meetings' on campus which as far as I know no one goes to
22:59:10 <oerjan> but mainly because they're the "old-style" communists, all the young radicals go to "red" instead.
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22:59:30 <oerjan> if they're sufficiently radical, that is.
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23:00:10 <oren> In Canada young radicals don't vote.
23:00:32 <oren> Or young people in general really
23:01:14 <oren> I only voted because I had nothing better to do
23:02:01 <J_Arcane> oren: Canadian politics never really seemed like a thing one got excited about really, unless you were Quebecois and the latest hopeless referendum was up for vote.
23:02:31 <oerjan> there are also the Greens, they're radical about the environment but i don't think about economics.
23:03:38 <oerjan> and last election they seemed to be siphoning voters off the left socialists, which also style themselves as "green"
23:04:14 <oren> It's confusing that the Republicans are red. Whoever thought that was a good idea
23:04:49 <oerjan> oren: i vaguely remember reading they used to vary that by election, but then after 9/11 or thereabouts it got stuck
23:06:03 <oerjan> presumably neither party wants to be associated with the european associations of the color
23:06:44 <oren> Apparently so. they got stuck with the wrong colours as far as the rest of the world (including Canada) is concerne
23:06:51 <oerjan> there's always the joke that in norway/europe, the democrats would be considered a right-wing party.
23:07:11 <oren> We make that joke too
23:07:48 <oren> But our most left-wing party the NDP uses orange
23:09:14 <oerjan> red, obviously, uses red. but then so does the labor party, and the socialist lefts use red+green
23:09:40 <oren> The christmas party
23:11:03 <oerjan> actually the christian people's party uses red, too, and even the rightwing progress party is mostly red.
23:11:53 <oren> Um, how is the "progress party" right-wing. That doesn't make sense
23:12:27 <oerjan> it's considered the most right-wing party in parliament.
23:13:06 <oren> our most right-wing party was once called the "progressive conservatives" which is just contradictory
23:13:36 <oren> "We want to go forward, and stay where we are!"
23:14:19 <oren> They realized this and chnged the name
23:14:41 <oerjan> our _second-most_ right-wing party, named "right", but usually translated as conservatives, has a coalition covernment with the progress party.
23:15:12 <J_Arcane> oerjan: my favorite joke about American politics is that by US standards, Jeremy Clarkson is practically a moderate ...
23:15:15 <oerjan> well the progress party are not conservative, they certainly want to change things.
23:16:20 <Taneb> I very much support the idea of Conserving the French Monarch
23:16:29 <oerjan> J_Arcane: this joke would probably work better if i actually watched tv.
23:17:21 <J_Arcane> Jeremy Clarkson is the head presenter on Top Gear. I like to think of him as Britain's drunk uncle.
23:17:35 <oerjan> i did google that much.
23:18:50 <J_Arcane> Besides the car thing, he's mostly famous for getting in trouble over vaguely racist remarks, or complaining about any kind of legal or environmental barriers to the existence of large fuel-guzzling v12 engines.
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23:19:35 <oerjan> well the latter part does look like part of his job description.
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23:23:43 <lambdabot> liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction.
23:23:54 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
23:24:00 <lambdabot> liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction.
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23:24:54 * oerjan assumes that is an inside joke about monochrom which he doesn't know
23:26:26 <lambdabot> ghc says: falls under the monomorphism restriction
23:26:29 <lambdabot> koeien says: Let's register it [monomorphismrestriction.com] to prevent it from being used ;)
23:26:40 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: <mauke> inb4 monomorphism restriction <chrisdone> monomorphism prediction
23:26:49 <lambdabot> liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction.
23:26:53 <lambdabot> vixey says: put some restriction like every token has a neighbourhood locally homeomophic to algol
23:27:26 <oerjan> callforjudgement: that last one sounds like something you'd know about.
23:27:57 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: <mauke> inb4 monomorphism restriction <chrisdone> monomorphism prediction
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23:56:04 <lambdabot> monochrom says: "a monad is like drinking water from a bottle without human mouth touching bottle mouth"
23:56:50 <oren> So it matched characters not words
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23:58:11 <lambdabot> Japsu says: segfault cat is watching you unsafeCoerce
23:58:26 <lambdabot> monochrom says: those who have learned from history are bound to helplessly watch other people repeat it.
23:58:37 <lambdabot> quanticle says: If you recommend me that mexican water again, I will break a Corona bottle over your head.
23:58:45 <lambdabot> Vellos says: i will watch you from afar
23:59:05 <oren> @quote segfault
23:59:05 <lambdabot> TSC says: Programs compiled with GHC aren't really supposed to segfault, are they? <Pseudonym> Did you call unsafeSegfault?
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00:00:11 <lambdabot> baristaTam says: Well, I suppose I shouldn't surround myself in a place full of hate. I think bringing kindness into the world is a value, and this channel seems to spew the opposite.
00:00:45 <oren> Ooh, a flame war
00:00:45 <elliott> @forget baristaTam Well, I suppose I shouldn't surround myself in a place full of hate. I think bringing kindness into the world is a value, and this channel seems to spew the opposite.
00:01:07 <lambdabot> RussellNorvig says: "...the ideas of logic are far more general and beautiful than is commonly supposed."
00:01:50 <lambdabot> devrandom says: yes, I do plan to use a good RNG
00:02:07 <lambdabot> JosephFMiklojcikIII says: In keeping with other popular software projects, versions are named by adjectiveFurniture pairs, where successive versions (more properly termed "releases") begin with pairs of successive letters of the English alphabet. We could not come up with the zeroth or negative first letter of the alphabet, so simply began our
00:02:07 <lambdabot> release names with AvariciousArmoire and documented the reason why.
00:02:36 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
00:03:12 <lambdabot> DavidWheeler says: Compatibility means deliberately repeating other people's mistakes.
00:03:22 -!- adu has joined.
00:03:49 <elliott> hmm, is that naming joke a negative reasoning joke?
00:06:39 <lambdabot> dalaing says: going from doing a fair bit of haskell recently to doing javascript today... sigh... it feels like the difference between typing at a keyboard and typing with a pair of those sporting-event-foam-hands-with-a-pointing-finger on
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00:08:25 <lambdabot> Heffalump says: <joelr1> Heffalump: i always wondered... why didn't [Credit Suisse] go with ocaml? <Heffalump> cos they have taste
00:09:59 <lambdabot> accel says: next time I'll read a few research papers before I start trolling hakell
00:10:00 <J_Arcane> @quote antidisestablishmentarianism
00:10:00 <lambdabot> No quotes match. My pet ferret can type better than you!
00:10:24 <lambdabot> accel says: next time I'll read a few research papers before I start trolling hakell
00:10:58 <oren> @quote project
00:10:58 <lambdabot> JosephFMiklojcikIII says: In keeping with other popular software projects, versions are named by adjectiveFurniture pairs, where successive versions (more properly termed "releases") begin with pairs of successive letters of the English alphabet. We could not come up with the zeroth or negative first letter of the alphabet, so simply began our
00:10:59 <lambdabot> release names with AvariciousArmoire and documented the reason why.
00:11:02 <oren> @quote project
00:11:02 <lambdabot> Cale says: Little known fact: For any positive integer n, the infinite sequence of Project Euler problems has only finitely many elements whose solution is not divisible by n.
00:11:40 <oren> @quote project
00:11:41 <lambdabot> gwern says: good news everyone! we heard you like interpreters so we used the 3rd futamura projection to interpret your compiler so you can compile while you interpret!
00:12:40 <oren> futamura? apparently a chemical company in Japan
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00:16:06 <elliott> @google projections of futamura
00:16:07 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation
00:16:07 <lambdabot> Title: Partial evaluation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:16:10 <elliott> @google projections of futamura sigfpe
00:16:11 <lambdabot> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
00:16:11 <lambdabot> Title: A Neighborhood of Infinity: The Three Projections of Doctor Futamura
00:16:45 <oren> oh i see... Has anyone implemented such thing?
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00:23:23 <lambdabot> blackh says: This is Haskell so we can do whatever we like.
00:23:34 <lambdabot> jedbrown says: #haskell spends 5 hours discussing what the version number should be, then one hour writing an Arc compiler.
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00:25:27 <oerjan> the AvariciousArmoire Arc compiler
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00:39:36 <oerjan> paul graham's lisp dialect
00:39:37 <J_Arcane> yes. more or less abandoned now.
00:39:55 <oerjan> oh hacker news was written in it
00:40:30 <J_Arcane> yes. other than HN and the Arc forum, about the only applications in Arc seem to be half-finished Arc implementations ...
00:44:13 <J_Arcane> (partly this is because the canonical implementation is written in a grossly out of date version of MzScheme)
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01:00:50 <lambdabot> ENSB 302350Z 13016KT 9999 FEW025 M20/M29 Q1017 RMK WIND 1400FT 12003KT
01:00:55 <lambdabot> CYUL 310000Z 29012KT 15SM DRSN FEW040 BKN180 BKN220 M12/M18 A3009 RMK SC1AC5CI1 SLP190
01:01:35 <lambdabot> LOWI 310050Z AUTO VRB02KT 2000 SN FEW015 BKN024 M04/M06 Q0982
01:02:07 <int-e> more than cold enough for me
01:02:16 <boily> int-ello. -22 this night. I wonder if we're going to get lower than Svalbard.
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01:04:33 <lambdabot> ENRO 310050Z AUTO 14015KT 9999NDV -SHSN FEW027/// OVC052/// M04/M07 Q0978
01:04:33 <lambdabot> KATL 310052Z 34011KT 10SM FEW250 06/M06 A3031 RMK AO2 SLP271 T00611061
01:04:50 <boily> hellœrjan. ENRO is a persistent anomaly.
01:05:08 <oerjan> well it's well known in norway for being a cold place
01:05:47 <oerjan> or maybe it's just not working properly, that does look anomalous
01:06:31 <oerjan> hm nah weather forecast agrees
01:06:32 <boily> oh. I'm conflagrating ENRO and EFRO together. my bad.
01:06:37 <lambdabot> EFRO 310050Z AUTO 02005KT 9999 -SHSN FEW007 OVC012 M09/M10 Q0993
01:07:12 <lambdabot> ENVA 310050Z 07007KT CAVOK 01/M07 Q0980 RMK WIND 670FT 16016KT
01:08:12 <oerjan> i think rovaniemi is also known for being cold, being in north finland
01:08:21 <oerjan> i assume that's the one
01:10:22 <lambdabot> ESNQ 310050Z AUTO 03005KT 9999 -SN FEW008/// SCT038/// OVC068/// M14/M16 Q0992
01:10:46 <boily> ah! at last some place colder than here!
01:11:23 <Taneb> I keep forgetting how to read METAR
01:11:33 <lambdabot> UUDD 310100Z 14007MPS 9999 BKN006 OVC100 M05/M05 Q1004 64550194 TEMPO 1000 FZDZ
01:11:36 <Taneb> It's 1.8 degrees C here
01:13:14 <lambdabot> UNNT 310100Z 17004MPS CAVOK M22/M26 Q1032 25810160 16810160 NOSIG RMK QFE764/1019
01:13:27 <oerjan> i give you: novosibirsk
01:13:53 <int-e> tbf it went up to +2°C during the day here.
01:15:13 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. which one was yours again?
01:15:30 <boily> oerjan: that's cheating.
01:15:55 <boily> int-e: you live in a tropical climate. how dare you go above zero during February!
01:15:56 <oerjan> hey it's a perfectly good populated place
01:16:11 <oerjan> by obviously mad people, but still
01:17:06 <int-e> boily: happens every year
01:17:22 <Taneb> boily, EGNT out of termtime
01:17:25 <lambdabot> ENNA 310050Z 33004KT 290V030 9999 FEW031 SCT041 M08/M12 Q0998 RMK WIND 1800FT 06015KT
01:17:30 <Taneb> Right now I'm not much near an airport
01:17:34 <Taneb> So I use http://weather.elec.york.ac.uk/
01:17:37 <oerjan> i guess norway just isn't cold
01:17:48 <int-e> oerjan: to say something positive for the people, I'm not a native.
01:18:04 <Taneb> `addquote <oerjan> i guess norway just isn't cold
01:18:06 <HackEgo> 1231) <oerjan> i guess norway just isn't cold
01:19:32 <oerjan> you leave out _one_ "today"...
01:20:53 <oerjan> it is entirely possible to get M40 in røros, but...
01:20:59 <int-e> Ambient temperature is fluctuating around 275K, but people make a big deal of a 10% difference...
01:21:30 <boily> we happen to be made of biological matter with a high water proportion hth
01:22:33 <int-e> *sigh* If you think I didn't know that, think again.
01:22:59 * boily thinks... thinks... thinks... enters a state akin to OSX's beachball of death...
01:23:11 <int-e> Oh well. I guess stating the obvious is this channels second most favourite topic. I forgot the first.
01:24:20 <HackEgo> int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:24:27 <int-e> I guess that was it.
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01:27:04 <oerjan> let's not conclude too early which one is on top
01:28:23 <int-e> oerjan: you make a strong case.
01:29:21 <int-e> [In case it wasn't obvious: that was the second reply that came to my mind. The first one was "obviously."]
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01:44:59 <PinealGlandOptic> hi everybody. what is the good exercise set (like Project Euler) to learn lambda calculus and dig deep into FP like Haskell?
01:46:00 <elliott> just about anything other than project euler is good
01:46:08 <elliott> it happens to be particularly unsuited for haskell :p
01:46:41 <pikhq> Project Euler in Haskell is kinda fun I guess? But really not a good fit for "learning Haskell".
01:47:01 <pikhq> It manages to explore the less interesting bits of the language quite heavily. :P
01:48:03 <boily> PinealGlandOptic: if you want a nice set of challenges, http://programmingpraxis.com/ . the exercises there are oftentimes practical and applicable.
01:50:28 <PinealGlandOptic> I want to sharpen my FP skills and I choose to learn LISP, ML and Haskell. anything else I forgot?
01:51:53 <boily> I'd rather swap LISP with Scheme (R5RS) because personal preference. also, don't be afraid by beginner category theory.
01:53:00 <boily> have you read http://learnyouahaskell.com/ yet?
01:53:32 <int-e> if you're learning ML and Haskell, beware of the term "functor", they're not the same
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01:53:56 <int-e> and by "not the same" I mean "almost, but not quite, entirely different"
01:54:05 -!- Quin has changed nick to Eolus.
01:54:05 <oerjan> this also applies if you're learning Prolog
01:54:40 <J_Arcane> boily: I think Scheme is probably the best place to learn FP style. It was much easier to grasp stricter typed FP languages with some Little Schemer and Racket under my belt.
01:55:38 * int-e had to remind himself... the original was about tea. Or rather, not tea.
01:56:19 <PinealGlandOptic> thanks for your answers. but Sceme lacks Dynamic scope? is it not worth using it nowadays?
01:56:41 <int-e> oerjan: "[Arthur] had found a Nutri-Matic machine which had provided him with a plastic cup filled with a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."
01:56:46 <oerjan> there are uses for dynamic scope, but it's a bad default
01:57:31 <oerjan> it's bad if it's used without explicitly choosing to use it
01:57:42 <Eolus> So, What's you all talkins about today
01:58:03 <int-e> Eolus: hi not-Lilax.
01:58:05 <boily> obviously nothing.
01:58:23 <oerjan> even haskell has some dynamical scope support, but it's rarely used.
01:58:35 <oerjan> boily: implicit parameters
01:58:45 <boily> J_Arcane: I like chicken scheme.
01:59:04 <J_Arcane> boily: Have you seen Bones yet?
01:59:04 <Eolus> int-e shut your god damn mouth about that, I mentally am not Lilax. Drop it
01:59:14 <Eolus> Sorry if I was rude
01:59:38 <oerjan> > let f x = x + ?y in (let ?y = 1 in f 2, let ?y = 2 in f 2)
01:59:42 <boily> Eolus: don't worry. in times of identity crisis, lick ion.
01:59:50 <boily> btw, where is ion nowadays?
02:00:05 <int-e> Eolus: but you make it so rewarding to rub it in.
02:00:20 <Eolus> int-e: I will spit in your mouth
02:00:25 <int-e> It pleases my inner troll.
02:00:32 <Eolus> stop rubbing it in
02:00:39 <boily> huh? ion's been wiped from the wisdom?
02:00:47 <boily> Eolus: int-e is oerjan's evil twin.
02:01:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/:everyone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) \ wisdom/1:
02:01:13 <Eolus> So is oerjan mildy bad
02:01:20 <FireFly> `` grep -P '\bion\b' wisdom/*
02:01:23 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
02:01:26 <elliott> int-e: can we just be nice or something
02:01:29 <int-e> oerjan is a wholly different level of evil.
02:02:13 <int-e> elliott: I guess. The troll is fed now anyway.
02:02:43 <boily> `` find wisdom -name '*ion*'
02:02:44 <HackEgo> wisdom/indentity function \ wisdom/natural transformation \ wisdom/internationale \ wisdom/lion \ wisdom/perpetual motion machine \ wisdom/identity function \ wisdom/urbandictionary \ wisdom/hallucination \ wisdom/eurovision \ wisdom/tanebvention \ wisdom/composition
02:02:57 <HackEgo> Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world.
02:03:56 <boily> in the wisdom I wrote “Suffers from drive-by lickings.”, but it doesn't seem to be the official wisdom.
02:04:24 <Eolus> I don't get the joke
02:04:30 <Eolus> was ion being licked
02:04:41 <HackEgo> You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee
02:05:02 <boily> Eolus: yes, by some troll that joined the channel, licked ion, and then parted. sometimes multiple times per week.
02:05:17 <elliott> remember how they came back recently
02:05:28 <elliott> after like multiple years having passed
02:05:36 <Eolus> they obviously wanted the ion
02:06:25 <oerjan> <boily> btw, where is ion nowadays? <-- we can only assume he got all licked up
02:06:42 <Eolus> He is off enjoying the licking
02:07:09 <oerjan> boily: i'm sorry but int-e is my _redundant_ twin. i'm the evil one.
02:09:14 <oerjan> my what big eyes you have
02:09:18 <Eolus> oerjan is a fountain, int-e is a watermelon, firefly is a firefly, elliott is Jesus, boily is a cat
02:09:55 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
02:10:12 <boily> oh, the swatter! long time no see!
02:10:47 <int-e> watermelon, eh. could be worse. could be a pot of petunias.
02:11:19 <oerjan> boily: est-ce que vous êtes un chat?
02:11:32 <Eolus> An ORANGE water melon
02:11:45 <boily> oerjan: non, j'ai tendance à ne pas etre un chat.
02:11:48 <int-e> don't push it, lily
02:12:13 <int-e> (that's a plant. a fragile one.)
02:12:23 <boily> oerjan: et tu peux me tutoyer, sans problème.
02:12:31 <boily> (vraiment, ça fait étrange quand le monde me vouvoient...)
02:12:37 <Eolus> shut your mouth before I tear it off
02:12:59 <Eolus> Only our gf can call lilax Lily :l
02:13:26 <oerjan> merci beaucoup. although i was mainly amused i actually remembered enough french to make that sentence.
02:13:39 <boily> it was perfectly formed and properly accentuated.
02:13:43 <boily> Eolus: nope. Canada.
02:13:59 <Eolus> I can speak canadin
02:14:07 <boily> J_Arcane: j'te crois pas.
02:14:14 <Eolus> I'm doin' it right now
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02:16:58 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
02:18:09 <Eolus> Cod dammit data tables are just annoying
02:18:33 <oerjan> J_Arcane n'est pas leon
02:19:07 <FireFly> oerjan: back in business, I see
02:19:31 <Eolus> he likes to hit people
02:19:32 <oerjan> another year, another swat
02:19:38 <int-e> us wait for the mapole.
02:19:41 <Eolus> its his only excitement
02:19:43 <boily> oerjan: «J_ arcane n'est pas un lion»?
02:19:52 <int-e> (and kill whoever put ' right next to <return>)
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02:20:22 * boily shines his trusty mapole and makes a few practice swings in the air...
02:20:42 <Eolus> Murder is nev er an option int-e
02:20:57 * boily thwacks Eolus with a double reverse ninja wheelbarrow spin
02:21:11 <oerjan> boily: i didn't want to break the pun with un
02:21:17 * Eolus pulls out spray bottle and sprays boily
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02:22:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of percussive reeducation | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:23:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of percussive reëducation | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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02:23:58 <boily> and with that, 'night all!
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02:25:40 <oerjan> int-e: i see you've put henkma hard at work lately
02:29:19 <int-e> hmm, funny statistics on the Caesar thing
02:32:41 <int-e> the website is lacking the essential "show me problems where A is better than B" view...
02:33:51 <int-e> for the moment I only remember http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?sin+curve and http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?kM4_
02:34:10 <int-e> So two magic formula problems.
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04:20:46 <lambdabot> benmachine says: main = interact id
04:20:51 <lambdabot> RootLabs says: Bitcoin remains the most efficient method to buy drugs & transfer wealth from anti-govt zealots to hackers.
04:22:34 <oren> ok, actually I want to know why that Q ended up capital, the u became a katakana, and the o became a hiragana
04:23:31 <oren> It's repeatable: @Qウお手 it is using some crazy rules to decide what things are
04:23:57 <tswett> Oh yeah, I remember... one of those characters. い.
04:24:04 <tswett> I keep learning all the hiragana and forgetting most of them.
04:25:08 <oren> Intrestingly if I type something in the wrong mode into google, google often knows how to "unIME" it
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04:26:28 <lambdabot> http://get-simple.info/forums/showthread.php?tid=1995
04:26:29 <lambdabot> Title: ßрþñûõüð ÑÂ...
04:26:36 <lambdabot> http://www.wattpad.com/65119375-dreams-aren't-just-dreams-%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0-1
04:26:36 <lambdabot> Title: Dreams aren't just dreams Глава 1 - Page 1 - Wattpad
04:26:52 <oren> But apparently not thru lambdabot
04:27:54 <oren> The above are just IMEizations of "youtube" and "repeat" and google knows to unIME them
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04:41:42 <pikhq> lambdabot should really do some, y'know, encode checking on those titles. :)
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04:51:48 <oren> there shud be a language called "epilog"
05:03:37 <oren> @quote epigram
05:03:38 <lambdabot> dolio says: Perhaps he's an epigram guy and frowns on Turing completeness.
05:04:43 <oren> @quote epigram
05:04:43 <lambdabot> dolio says: Perhaps he's an epigram guy and frowns on Turing completeness.
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05:04:52 <oren> @quote dijkstra
05:04:52 <lambdabot> dijkstra says: when judging the relative merits of programming languages, some still seem to equate "the ease of programming" with the ease of making undetected mistakes
05:05:22 <oren> @quote dijkstra
05:05:23 <lambdabot> dijkstra says: when judging the relative merits of programming languages, some still seem to equate "the ease of programming" with the ease of making undetected mistakes
05:05:29 <lambdabot> dijkstra says: when judging the relative merits of programming languages, some still seem to equate "the ease of programming" with the ease of making undetected mistakes
05:05:36 <int-e> oh the ease of programming one is good
05:05:47 <lambdabot> edwardk says: i learned to program becaise i'd lied and told a kid that i'd written a disassembler, then had to make good on the claim.
05:06:32 <lambdabot> zzo38 says: Such as, we try to make something similar to a combination of Haskell, C, BLISS, TeX, WEB, Prolog, INTERCAL, and Magic: the Gathering; and then make it with many things omitted such as Unicode syntax, layout, do-notation, list comprehensions; and add in macros and stuff, and then make up something new......
05:06:55 <lambdabot> fubo says: I've seen "production" Prolog code and it bends my brain. Also, any language where performance is even less predictable than in Haskell strikes me as an odd choice.
05:16:28 * Sgeo now has a supposedly working fridge
05:19:36 <Sgeo> MealSquares are not non-perishable, so not so great for the obvious use-case of
05:19:42 <Sgeo> 'can't leave apartment'
05:20:01 <Sgeo> Either I'm eating them regularly so could be caught out, or I end up throwing them out frequently
05:20:22 <oren> Spam is practically non-perishable
05:20:52 <pikhq> Though almost certainly less suitable as a complete diet than MealSquares.
05:22:15 <oren> Our fridge is used mostly for beer, milk and eggs
05:22:32 <Sgeo> I've been told by my step-mother that I no longer need to gain weight
05:23:06 <Sgeo> The most obvious diet change would be going from 3 slices of pizza most nights to 2 + MealSquare, but 1 MealSquare > 1 slice of pizza in terms of calories :/
05:23:36 <pikhq> You... do you mostly just eat pizza?
05:23:50 <oren> dude learn to cook
05:23:54 <Sgeo> Other things too, but probably pizza makes up a big portion
05:24:04 <pikhq> Huh, and I thought I was bad.
05:24:16 <Sgeo> 5/7 nights I eat pizza for dinner. I eat other things for breakfast and lunch
05:24:31 <oren> I eat very unhealthy stuff, but I make it myself
05:25:35 <pikhq> Isn't that, y'know, expensive? I mean, pizza isn't super ultra pricy, but eating out all the time is kinda killer on the wallet.
05:26:06 <Sgeo> pikhq: I figure as long as derivative of net worth stays positive, it's probably fine
05:26:21 <pikhq> Also, 3 slices of pizza + you didn't have a fridge = huh. So, you just let the pizza sit out?
05:26:36 <Sgeo> pikhq: I go to pizza place and eat there
05:26:49 <pikhq> That is significantly less worrying.
05:26:52 <oren> Sgeo: do you have a stove?
05:27:05 <Sgeo> oren: don't know if it works
05:27:20 <oren> Sgeo: jesus dude
05:28:10 <oren> If it works, you could save a fortune by making french toast one night a week
05:30:17 <oren> Also check what's on sale at your local grocery store
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05:32:36 <Sgeo> I don't drive, and the nearest grocery store is a significant walk away
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05:48:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IDTM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41780&oldid=41772 * Scoppini * (-1) Minor grammar fix
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06:26:44 <PinealGlandOptic> as it seems, ML and Haskell source code has reduced need of syntax-colouring editors? languages probably can be compared using this measure :)
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09:10:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Al Dente]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41781 * 86.92.91.190 * (+95) Created page with "Examples are given on a [[Al_Dente_examples|separate]] page; why not add them to the main text?"
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10:15:23 <PinealGlandOptic> hi everybody. ML praised for excellent type system. is it possible to encode there a value in range 0..11 for month in date, so it would be impossible to push 12 there? are there any other PL which makes this possible?
10:16:27 <PinealGlandOptic> this can be solved by allocating n bits for value, but it works only for values in 0..2^n range
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10:55:06 <Jafet> How impossible do you need it to be?
10:58:09 <Jafet> In ML it is quite simple: signature MONTH = sig type Month val toMonth : Int -> Month val fromMonth : Month -> Int end
10:58:46 <Jafet> toMonth n = if n >= 12 then throw NoSuchMonth else Month n
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11:01:15 <Jafet> It constructs a value, not an object, but ocaml probably allows the same thing with objects
11:04:36 <Jafet> Also simple in Ada: subtype Month is Integer range 0 .. 11;
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11:05:19 <PinealGlandOptic> Jafet: that's specific for month or I could add, say, day in range of 0..31?
11:06:47 <Jafet> Why would you want that? It seems better to have a type for Gregorian dates, then the valid day numbers depend on the current month and year.
11:06:59 <Jafet> (No month has 32 days, anyway.)
11:07:39 <PinealGlandOptic> Jafet: just interesting, no specific goal. RDBMS has constraints for this, so it's impossible to push incorrect value to field. maybe some PL can do so as well
11:08:27 <Jafet> Which programming languages cannot do this?
11:10:03 <fizzie> Good old Pascal has "subrange types" too.
11:11:26 <fizzie> type Month = 0 .. 11; and so on.
11:12:33 <fizzie> Jafet: What about the rare "misplaced leap day" that accidentally lands in January?
11:12:39 <PinealGlandOptic> as another example, it would be cool to have LatinChar type which can contain only A..Z symbols
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11:13:48 <PinealGlandOptic> interesting, how Pascal controlling value to be always withing range, or it is rather self-documenting feature
11:14:13 <fizzie> I think it's enforced, but I'm no Pascal expert.
11:18:40 <PinealGlandOptic> I also once made FuzzyBool type in C++ which is enum for True/False/Unknown. I has a bit obsessive compulsive paranoid thoughts that other value can be there instead of these. huh.
11:19:03 <PinealGlandOptic> it is integer, of course, but can be narrowed to 2 bits, which allows four state
11:19:37 <fizzie> enum Bool { True, False, FileNotFound }; is the dailywtf classic.
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11:48:45 <Vorpal_> PinealGlandOptic, you could have true,false,unknown,not-applicable?
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12:19:03 <fizzie> Buh. JuiceSSH somehow disables the swiping functionality of the standard keyboard.
12:19:40 <Jafet> Obviously it would be true, false, unknown, impossible
12:20:43 <fizzie> You have to pop up the "special keys" supplementary keyboard, swipe it left to get a special text input line. Then you can do normal text input and editing there.
12:21:38 <fizzie> Admittedly predictive text input in Irssi Connectbot was kind of flaky occasionally too.
12:22:49 <b_jonas> ooh! inkscape 0.91 is finally released!
12:24:33 <fizzie> "Thanks go especially to Google for sponsoring much of this work." I didn't know that.
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12:33:39 <oerjan> <oren> Spam is practically non-perishable <-- i now get the image of Sgeo living solely on spam for a month
12:34:42 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever had proper spam. :/
12:35:03 <J_Arcane> It's largely under-rated IMO, if a bit salty.
12:35:22 <fizzie> We have a somewhat similar thing in Finland that we had as boat food relatively often.
12:36:11 <fizzie> "Nötkötti", colloquially.
12:36:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds similar to the Swedish word nötkött, which just means "meat from a cow"
12:37:14 * oerjan thought it mean emergency meat
12:37:30 <fizzie> This one is a mixture of beef and pork.
12:37:34 <oerjan> i guess that would be nödkött
12:37:37 <fizzie> http://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sian-_ja_naudanlihas%C3%A4ilyke
12:37:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, would be nödkött indeed
12:38:09 <fizzie> "Sikanauta" is an alternative term.
12:38:54 <fizzie> Apparently the original was beef-only, hence the name.
12:38:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, now I'm wondering why nöt is used for cows, nötkött, nötkreatur and so on. After all nöt on its own means nut
12:39:26 * oerjan munges url into https non-mobile
12:39:59 <oerjan> huh google translate actually calls it "spam"
12:40:27 <fizzie> I guess spam is pork-only? I think it's otherwise quite similar though.
12:42:41 <oerjan> i thought that was what the page said.
12:43:18 <fizzie> I didn't read it all the way through.
12:44:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm there's a norwegian word "naut" which means cattle or stupid person
12:44:50 <oerjan> although "nøtt" means nut
12:45:17 <fizzie> Minestrone soup (from a bag), with the minced meat in the recipe replaced with "nötkötti", was one of our staples.
12:46:07 <Vorpal> And yes, nöt can also be used to mean stupid person
12:46:16 <oerjan> however, i think naut is hardly ever used as a non-insult these days
12:47:29 <oerjan> certainly not as part of food descriptions
12:47:57 <fizzie> The Finnish "nauta" (cow or bull, often in compounds) is clearly from the same roots.
12:48:33 <oerjan> of course the word "fe" which _is_ used in food descriptions, also means stupid person.
12:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taktentus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41782&oldid=41734 * 46.112.181.141 * (+37) binary
12:50:04 <oerjan> (usually it's used in the form "storfe", presumably to avoid saying that the meat is cow rather than ox)
12:51:11 <oerjan> if it actually _is_ ox meat, that may be marked.
12:52:17 <oerjan> i think. a bit hearsay as i've not paid attention to it myself.
12:54:35 <oerjan> i cannot remember the norwegian brandname or colloquial word for hermetized meat. i don't think i've had it for decades.
12:55:29 <oerjan> although there's a strange visual of something like it in the back of my mind, so i think my childhood contained some of it.
13:03:12 <fizzie> Wikipedia seems to be missing a "List of the Spam-equivalents of different countries" article, or at least I didn't quickly find it.
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14:00:29 <J_Arcane> The Danish have the canned ham, which is pretty much the same stuff as Spam, just usually less salty/fatty IME.
14:00:35 <J_Arcane> I loved getting that stuff as a kid.
14:01:03 <J_Arcane> We used to get charity food boxes at Christmas from the VFD and someone in the neighborhood always stuck a can of Danish ham in there.
14:05:40 <boily> J_Arcanello. In My Epinion?
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14:07:11 <boily> I like grilled spam on top of ramen.
14:09:17 <boily> FirelloFly. thanks.
14:10:26 <FireFly> Hmm, doesn't work very well
14:12:00 <oerjan> polysynthetic greetings
14:13:41 <J_Arcane> boily: I'm a big fan of spam sushi and spam fried rice. :D
14:14:46 <oerjan> but do you like green eggs and spam?
14:15:27 <Taneb> I do not like green eggs and spam
14:15:34 <Taneb> I do not like them, oh-er-jan
14:16:35 <boily> J_Arcane: you hawaiian :P
14:17:00 <J_Arcane> naw. but that is where I got the idea, by way of Bourdain.
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14:18:17 <boily> J_Arcane: have you tried salted fish fried rice?
14:18:25 <oerjan> plausible http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
14:18:37 <oerjan> (although there are other spam festivals...)
14:18:56 <J_Arcane> boily: I have not. Sounds tasty.
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14:21:17 <oerjan> or possibly just one other, hm
14:21:35 <boily> J_Arcane: it's the kind of dish that the more it stinks, the tastier it is.
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15:11:11 <quintopia> how is it this fine saturday afternoon
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15:19:22 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
15:29:14 <quintopia> but feel free to invite me next time you vacation
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16:12:29 <J_Arcane> Working on a C# tutorial, and starting to realize why the comparison point is usually Java here ...
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16:16:59 <J_Arcane> At this point the project does little more than make a window appear with some text in it, yet I've at this point completely lost count of the number of files in the solution, in part just because many of them are obscured.
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17:44:20 <HackEgo> [U+1D34 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL H] [U+1D30 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL D]
17:49:19 <oren> Modifier letter? Glah
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19:40:51 <Vorpal> oren, there are modifier letters? What do they do?
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20:01:51 <oren> Vorpal: no idea
20:04:42 <J_Arcane> O_O https://projecteuler.net/problem=500
20:05:18 <Taneb> J_Arcane, yay number theory>
20:09:02 <Taneb> J_Arcane, I've often thought that Project Euler is less about programming and more about number theory
20:09:13 <Taneb> Number theory and combinatorics mostly
20:10:15 <J_Arcane> Taneb: this would explain why Racket is the easiest language to solve Euler problems in that I've found (besides maybe Haskell): It has a built in number-theory library ...
20:11:48 <Taneb> J_Arcane, ooh, I didn't realise this
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20:16:48 <int-e> 50% of PE problems require a prime sieve
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20:19:15 <int-e> But PE is rather strange. A lot of the problems (at least the first 270, I stopped solving them after that) are designed to be solved without requiring larger than 64bit integers. And some tasks are number-crunching so much that it's hard to solve them in 1 minute in Haskell, and much easier in C.
20:20:28 <int-e> hmm. s/270/230/, though I've still looked at the problems for a while after that.
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20:23:03 <fizzie> I stopped at... 100? 200? Something like that.
20:27:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: AIUI, letter that doesn't have it's own sound but modifies some other letter. IPA has them, for example.
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20:41:37 <boily> fizzie: AUI? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUI_%28constructed_language%29
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21:33:26 <b_jonas> In http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1176#comic , why is the model Moon so small compared to the model Earth? Could Superman not find models of the same scale?
21:39:05 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/thiagopnts/groot
21:42:30 <J_Arcane> 141 lines to write Hello World.
21:43:05 <J_Arcane> And that's still lighter than the c# tutorial I'm working on, which so far can only manage to put some numbers up in a window.
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23:38:11 <AndoDaan> Hey, oerjan. Mind if I ask a question?
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23:38:55 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that
23:40:08 <oerjan> i predict the answer is: no, i wasn't there, and you cannot prove anything.
23:40:10 <AndoDaan> I've been looking Thue, and I was wondering if there are any Thue like languages without the non-determinism.
23:40:25 <oerjan> AndoDaan: /// is deterministic
23:40:29 <nys> biased thue
23:41:02 <AndoDaan> does /// have all the basic operations of Thue?
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23:42:00 <oerjan> itflabtijtslwi is /// with input
23:42:01 <AndoDaan> Wait, /// is self modifying right? I mean it can add and subtrack pattern and replacement strings?
23:42:34 <nys> packrat thue
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23:42:56 <oerjan> thue doesn't modify its own program
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23:43:51 <oerjan> it's AST rather than string replacement, essentially, but it's usually deterministic.
23:43:59 <oerjan> of course it also has backtracking
23:44:21 <oerjan> eodermdrome is graph replacement but that's nondeterministic too
23:44:49 <oerjan> prolog backtracks if a clause fails
23:45:22 <oerjan> but applying a single clause is sort of like replacement
23:45:34 <AndoDaan> I'm not familiar with prolog at all. Functional language?
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23:46:17 <oerjan> basically, it's primitive operation is term unification
23:46:58 <oerjan> more or less the same kind of unification that haskell/ml uses for type inference
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23:47:44 <AndoDaan> Haskell is basically just a fancy string rewriter, with some arithmetic, right?
23:47:58 <AndoDaan> I say right, but I'm guessing.
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23:48:33 <oerjan> you can _implement_ haskell with tree rewriting.
23:48:50 <oerjan> not very efficient, but it's an old technique
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23:49:28 <oerjan> or well, graph rewriting probably, you have cycles...
23:49:40 <AndoDaan> That's true for a lot of languages.
23:49:40 <oerjan> unless you want to be _completely_ inefficient.
23:50:02 <AndoDaan> That is the nature of string rewriting.
23:50:42 <oerjan> fractran could be considered number rewriting :)
23:50:50 <oerjan> it's also completely deterministic
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23:50:57 <AndoDaan> I've been playing around with the Yad interpreter. And I just thought it odd that's there seems to be no named Markov like esolangs.
23:51:18 <oerjan> what's a markov like esolang
23:52:20 <oerjan> fungot: what do you think about markov
23:52:21 <fungot> oerjan: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these to tristan d'acunha, a volcanic origin, a high, and was fnord him with his umbrella. " who can have patience to acquire it. just fnord" brutha. " do you know much about gods, i am no fighter:
23:52:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:52:38 <AndoDaan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_algorithm
23:53:04 <AndoDaan> You know that of course. I wasn't sure it was 'algorithm'.
23:53:33 <oerjan> markov did a lot of stuff
23:54:08 <AndoDaan> It's one of those names that I'm starting to remember by osmosis.
23:57:02 <oerjan> i guess with thue already existing, implementing plain markov seems boring.
23:57:33 <oerjan> also, you're technically allowed to implement thue as if it were markov
23:58:49 <AndoDaan> I had difficulty with forcing the order of thue's rule execution.
23:59:11 <AndoDaan> I guess a bigger alphabet might help that.
23:59:36 <oerjan> i'm saying that a deterministic thue implementation is legal.